From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 00:04:58 2005 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:04:58 -0000 Subject: Why Lily, Not James? + prophecy-translation (WAS: Re: Why James, Not Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135832 > Geoff wrote: I am, just as lots of others very curious why Lily did not have to die (and James did, apparently) but I'm sure the reason for it was one that was beneficial in one way or another for LV himself. > Rachael now: > So I guess what we really need to think about is: what did Voldemort > think he would gain by killing James, but wouldn't gain by killing > Lily? Or what did he think he would he lose by killing Lily, but > wouldn't lose by killing James? My turn: We've been led to believe there is a large secret regarding Lily and we wonder why Voldemort would give Lily the chance to step aside before killing her and then there's that unknown horcrux [And, I recall a JKR interview in which she overtly discusses Harry having Lily's eyes, and she laughs that she is giving away far too much. (I've been searching for the exact text; no luck thus far. Anyone remember where it is?)] This gets my thoughts a-tumbling in a myriad directions. Could Lily be a GG descendent, thus a worthy candidate for LV to turn into a horcrux? Horcrux!Lily?? Could this explain why he gives Lily the option to live -- to preserve one of his horcruxes? Yet, when she does not step aside, he weighs his options. (`Tis better to kill the Prophecy Boy and lose one or many horcruxes than to lose this opportunity to kill Harry.) No one else has made more than one horcrux, so perhaps the inner workings of horcruxes are not well known. Plus, we already know that Lily's motherly love saved Harry's life -- a repercussion Voldemort did not foresee. So, perhaps Lily knows she's a horcrux and figures out a way to transfer this to Harry; Lily's dying to save Harry transfers part of the horcrux to Harry (via Old Magic, not via a witch or wizard`s spell); or Voldemort`s creating-a-horcrux spell was cast on Lily but the words used specified a GG descendent (thus easing the Lily-to-Harry transfer, or perhaps *causing* it when Harry was born and another GG descendent was created). The literal transference: eyes. Regardless of scenario, Lily's eyes, part of the horcrux, are transferred to Harry. And now Harry literally has his mothers' eyes. I like this possibility, partially because of the problem it could create for Voldemort. If all his horcruxes (except Harry) are destroyed, then what would happen to him if he killed Harry -- and also destroyed the last remaining horcrux? (I don't mean to infer that Voldemort -- or anyone -- knows Lily/Harry are the GG horcrux. Not as of HBP, that is.) But what if Lily did know? How might she have learned it? We don't know how the horcrux is produced; perhaps Lily didn't either. Could a clue lie in the Potters having escaped Voldemort three times? First time: Voldemort learns Lily is a GG descendent. Second: snares them with a trap, performs the spell. Third time: the Potters discover Lily's a horcrux. Problem: Why didn't Dumbledore know? Why doesn't anyone (living -- that we're aware of ) know? Well, we have evidence that the Potters didn't have the best judgment of whom to trust with secrets (ahem, secret-keeper Pettigrew) -- could they have feared the Order might sacrifice horcrux!Lily? (OR, if R.A.B. had a helper in the locket-cave, could the helper try to track down Harry, giving him another foe to fight in book 7?) I'm going to step a bit away from meta-conjecture and turn to the prophecy. "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies " I've always had a problem with the wording of this prophecy, and I don't think JKR chooses these words hastily. I could be reading this wrong, but does it not say that Harry and Voldemort cannot be alive at the same time? Does that mean that Voldemort is not alive-alive, but horcrux-alive? Is that not why he didn't die when his curse bounced off Harry and back at him? If all the horcruxes are destroyed, what becomes of Voldemort? And, IF Harry's eyes are the final Horcrux and Voldemort destroys Harry's eyes, could that kill Voldemort -- or leave him in a state possible for a blinded Harry to kill Voldemort? (Thus the villain is ultimately responsible for his own demise.) [Wouldn't it be great if Pettigrew somehow figures out or overhears -- perhaps at Spinners End -- about Lily!horcrux and passes the info to Harry? Would that redeeming factor legitimize his house placement?] A final side note about the prophecy: is it just me, or does anyone else see the possibility for three people being mentioned in the prophecy? (1) Dark Lord, (2) a July-born boy with parents thrice defying aforementioned Dark Lord who has a secret power, (3) a July-born boy with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. The prophecy has been translated as Harry and Voldemort fighting, and one killing the other; however, I offer the possibility that the word "must" may be crucial. What if neither can *live* while the other survives, therefore the `prophecy' [or the human transport of the prophecy translating assumptions (obviously not in the full consciousness of the seer); some prophecy thing we don't understand -- where do prophecies come from anyway? The seer is just a medium ] assumes one must kill the other but does not overtly state that one WILL kill the other? Q: But if one of them is not *alive* (ahem, Voldemort), then how can he be killed? A: He can't die at another's hand, but he can be vanquished and the one with the power to vanquish him was ALSO born at the end of July. Enter, Neville. Phew. I know this is a pile of what-ifs upon what-ifs. Tear it apart, or add to it. Or perhaps (a word I've used all too often here), these ideas may spark some more likely hypotheses. -- Nobody's Rib (who really wants the plural of `horcrux' to be 'horcrix', or `horcrex') From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 00:05:38 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:05:38 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Dumbledore-Puppetmaster In-Reply-To: <42ED3718.1080906@telus.net> Message-ID: <003701c5962c$c0e99c70$d824f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135833 4. It is interesting to note that Snape uses Dumbledore's Pensieve and not one of his own. This could be for a couple of reasons. He could not be seen constantly going to Dumbledore every time he had been to a Deatheater gathering. It would allow for complete memories to be viewed by Dumbledore rather than information passed on second hand and allow for things to be missed. It would also allow Snape to deposit any thoughts or memories that could not be seen by Voldemort if he chose to go through Snape's mind. No matter how skilled an Occlumens Snape was, there was always the chance that he might not be able to protect himself. Much better to get rid of anything before-hand. This would also explain why Dumbledore trusts Snape, if he has had access to Snape's memories all this time. One wonders what Dumbledore does with his own thoughts and memories while Snape has his Pensieve. KJ Sherry now: Is there any canon evidence to show that Snape uses the pensive on a regular basis? As far as I know, he uses it when teaching occlumency to Harry, and that's that. That doesn't indicate to me a regular deposit of thoughts and memories. It makes sense, when teaching a teenager occlumency, that he might want to put away some things. No matter whose side he's on, he's got things in his mind Harry shouldn't see. It's a nice theory though, but I just don't buy it. Sherry From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 00:18:12 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:18:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CIAO DOLCE VITA (Longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003801c5962e$82636060$d824f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135834 bboyminn: I'm glad you said killed rather than murdered. Yes, I think Snape killed Dumbledore, but I think it was indeed because he saw that Dumbledore was already near dead and in the process of dying. Snape simply seized the opportunity to make Dumbledore's death work for him, and put him (Snape) in the strongest possible position to EVENTUALLY bring down Voldemort. It really doesn't need to be any more complicted than that; no 'kill me' Unbreakable Oaths, or any other such nonsense. Certainly, Dumdledore may have foreseen his own death coming. He may have even been slowly dying from the 'dead hand' curse. He and Snape may have discussed the possibilities. But in the end, Snape simply saw a dying Dumbledore and made the stituation work to his advantage. So, relative to Dumbledore's death, Snape is hardly innocent, he may even be guilty of manslaughter, but I don't think, in the end, anyone will find him guilty of murder. And hopefully, in the end, they will understand why he did what he did and forgive him. Sherry now: I don't know about the characters in the wizarding world, but there is no excuse, unless Dumbledore faked his death, that would ever let Snape off the hook, for me, anyway. He murdered Dumbledore. For whatever reason, whether some cockeyed noble plan, mercy killing, saving Draco, saving his own worthless skin, keeping his cover, or just for his own whims, to me, it's just plain murder. Nothing would ever be a believable or acceptable excuse. I wonder if it ever would be to Harry? Consider that because of Snape rushing off to spill the beans about the prophecy, Harry's parents are dead, Sirius spent 12 years in Azkaban ... will Harry ever be able to forgive or even come close to understanding any plan or motive that could even try to justify Snape's actions on the tower that night? It will be interesting to find out, if that is what happens in book 7. Personally, I hope not. Deliberately murdering Dumbledore for a supposedly noble purpose seems to go so against everything else in the books. It would be a huge disappointment for me. But I'm not one to say that because an author doesn't do what I like in a book, it's not well done. I may not like it, but that's ok, too. I just wish book seven was out now, so we could all find out! Of course, if Snape is to be redeemed, it could come in book seven through some other means, but murdering Dumbledore was not the act of a man who has sought redemption of any kind. Sherry From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 00:25:43 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:25:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Puppetmaster In-Reply-To: <42ED3718.1080906@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > He has set a sixteen year old boy, knowing that he might also have > to die to fulfil the prophesy, against the other most powerful > wizard of the age, half prepared, with vague instructions, little > effective assistance, and yet he says that he loves Harry. I have a > little trouble with that. There's an easy answer to that objection, although the Conventional Wisdom on the list doesn't necessarily want to hear it--Dumbledore didn't intend to die there, and he had a lot more to tell and teach Harry. > There is no way that Snape would be stupid enough to apply for the > DADA position every year for fourteen years knowing that there was > a hex on the job. He applied because Voldemort had told him to do > so, they needed to maintain the fiction that Snape was still doing > what Voldemort told him to do, and Dumbledore refused to accept > the applications so as to keep Snape in his position as long as > possible. This is, of course, assuming for sure that Snape *knows* that there is a hex on the job. I can see Snape being stubborn enough to continue to apply. Admittedly, there's a knot with the text and interview comments here that's a little messy, and not worked out to my satisfaction either. My general problem with the whole theory is that it goes more than a little contrary to a lot of Dumbledore's observed style, and the authorial interpretation of such (which is a valuable tool). When JKR said that DD didn't go to comfort Hagrid earlier because he wanted Hagrid to work it out on his own, it made a lot of things make sense. Dumbledore is about plans and knowledge and working things out, but he also has to leave more than enough room for all the people on the board (not merely players) to act in free will and work upon their own characters. For instance, his attitude towards Snape in the classroom fits with the description above if you think of it as DD giving Snape the room to try to fix himself, rather than ruthlessly using Snape's own inclinations to an end. (It's a rather ineffectual end, if that's what it is). Ruthless, but puppetmaster? I haven't seen any solid canonical support for anything as convoluted as the DISHWASHER in the past two books. I saw a Dumbledore doing a lot of extrapolation and flying by the seat of his pants this book. No one is *that* good to have all plans survive. -Nora chills in the evening From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 1 00:35:47 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:35:47 -0000 Subject: CIAO DOLCE VITA (Longish) In-Reply-To: <003801c5962e$82636060$d824f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > > > > > > Sherry now: > > I don't know about the characters in the wizarding world, but there is no > excuse, unless Dumbledore faked his death, that would ever let Snape off the > hook, for me, anyway. He murdered Dumbledore. For whatever reason, whether > some cockeyed noble plan, mercy killing, saving Draco, saving his own > worthless skin, keeping his cover, or just for his own whims, to me, it's > just plain murder. Nothing would ever be a believable or acceptable excuse. > I wonder if it ever would be to Harry? Consider that because of Snape > rushing off to spill the beans about the prophecy, Harry's parents are dead, > Sirius spent 12 years in Azkaban ... will Harry ever be able to forgive or > even come close to understanding any plan or motive that could even try to > justify Snape's actions on the tower that night? It will be interesting to > find out, if that is what happens in book 7. Personally, I hope not. > Deliberately murdering Dumbledore for a supposedly noble purpose seems to go > so against everything else in the books. It would be a huge disappointment > for me. But I'm not one to say that because an author doesn't do what I > like in a book, it's not well done. I may not like it, but that's ok, too. > I just wish book seven was out now, so we could all find out! Of course, if > Snape is to be redeemed, it could come in book seven through some other > means, but murdering Dumbledore was not the act of a man who has sought > redemption of any kind. > > > > Sherry Hickengruendler: While admittingly not yet confirmed in the books, it is IMO highly likely (in fact, it's one of the very few things I'm almost certain about), that Snape also was the spy, who told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters. Dumbledore already hinted at this in HBP (chapter 25) and since we don't know about any other spy for Dumbledore in the Death Eaters, it seems a reasonable conclusion. (But like I said, not yet confirmed, therefore there's still another possibility open, at least theoretically). I think this would be at least an attempted redemption for telling Voldemort about the prophecy. Snape was the one who made it possible that Voldemort was after the Potters, and he also was the one who through his actions tried to save them. But of course he failed, James and Lily are dead, and therefore his "evil" deed has a much bigger impact than his good one. I think that's the real reason why he saved Harry several times in the books. He still thinks that he's in James' guilt. And about Dumbledore: Well, if the theory is right, and Dumbledore really wanted Snape to do it, because it would help in the fight against Voldemort, than I consider it a truly heroic deed. Of course the big question is if this where Snape's reason to do it, and we won't know it before maybe 2007 (sigh), but if it is, than I at least will forgive him at once. What I will never forgive him is the truly despisable way he treats the kids in class, especially Harry, although he is responsbile for his parents deaths. Hickengruendler From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 1 00:05:25 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:05:25 -0000 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135837 > Deb: > > This is not about blame, it's about responsibility and learning > > from one's experiences. I still say Harry has a lot to learn if he > > is to ultimately vanquish Voldemort. > > > Alla: > > I disagree, Deb. I think Harry already has what it take to vanquish > Voldie somehow. Don't get me wrong. he needs to learn a lot as > wizzard, BUT JKR intends him to do it with "power Dark Lord knows > not", right? > > And that Harry has plenty, IMO. > > Now, Snape may THINK that Harry does not have that ability yet, but > I think he is in a for a big surprise in book 7. :-) > > > Just my opinion of course, > > Alla. Oh I agree with you Alla... Harry has all the elements he needs to vanquish LV... what he needs to learn IMO is to think things through, plan his strategy, organize his thoughts, get his reaction time speedier, and get the Occlumency/Legilimency lessons firmly under his control... He knows how to close himself off and be unreadable... he just does not do so when it is really needed. IMO the reason Snape was able to get away from him so easily (I think Harry is as powerful, if not more so, magically, as Snape and Voldemort and maybe even equal to Dumbledore) was because Harry was so caught up in the emotions of what had just happened on the tower and therefore was "broadcasting" his intentions, his emotions, his anger... and Snape, being such an excellent Occlumens and Legilimens, could easily see what was about to come at him and easily deflect it. That scene where Harry is trying to fight Snape reads like Snape is just casually flicking aside Harry's spells... and interrupting most of them before Harry is finished shouting out the command. Snape was even able to "hear" Harry's attempt at nonverbal spell casting... "Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought, "Levi--". "No, Potter!" screamed Snape." There must be some trick to this... to be shielded, blocked, so that a Legilimens can not read you, and still be able to power up a spell and cast it effectively ... and Harry has not figured that out yet. But he will need to have it figured out before he faces Voldemort for the final confrontation Deb From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 01:27:56 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:27:56 -0000 Subject: Why Lily, Not James? + prophecy-translation (WAS: Re: Why James, Not Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" wrote: > We've been led to believe there is a large secret regarding Lily and > we wonder why Voldemort would give Lily the chance to step aside > before killing her and then there's that unknown horcrux > > [And, I recall a JKR interview in which she overtly discusses Harry > having Lily's eyes, and she laughs that she is giving away far too > much. (I've been searching for the exact text; no luck thus far. > Anyone remember where it is?)] > > This gets my thoughts a-tumbling in a myriad directions. Could Lily > be a GG descendent, thus a worthy candidate for LV to turn into a > horcrux? Horcrux!Lily?? Could this explain why he gives Lily the > option to live -- to preserve one of his horcruxes? Yet, when she > does not step aside, he weighs his options. (`Tis better to kill the > Prophecy Boy and lose one or many horcruxes than to lose this > opportunity to kill Harry.) > > No one else has made more than one horcrux, so perhaps the inner > workings of horcruxes are not well known. Plus, we already know that > Lily's motherly love saved Harry's life -- a repercussion Voldemort > did not foresee. So, perhaps > > Lily knows she's a horcrux and figures out a way to transfer this to > Harry; Lily's dying to save Harry transfers part of the horcrux to > Harry (via Old Magic, not via a witch or wizard`s spell); or > Voldemort`s creating-a-horcrux spell was cast on Lily but the words > used specified a GG descendent (thus easing the Lily-to-Harry > transfer, or perhaps *causing* it when Harry was born and another GG > descendent was created). The literal transference: eyes. Regardless > of scenario, Lily's eyes, part of the horcrux, are transferred to > Harry. And now Harry literally has his mothers' eyes. > Hooboy, that is just so freaky. All these references to Harry having his mother's eyes, and JKR has quite a wicked sense of humor. Lily's eyes are a horcrux that got transfered to Harry? Just the thought of Harry having to give up his sight to destroy Voldemort is creepy. But then, an embryonic Voldemort being lowered into a cauldron containing his servant's hand, Harry's fresh blood and the murdered remains of his father show that JKR can push the creepy level comfort zone to the max. Anything's possible I suppose. Euu. From andie1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 02:34:56 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 02:34:56 -0000 Subject: Why Lily, Not James? + prophecy-translation (WAS: Re: Why James, Not Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: Could > Lily > > be a GG descendent, thus a worthy candidate for LV to turn into a > > horcrux? Horcrux!Lily?? This is an interesting theory, but I think that Horcrux!Lily would have to be for a different reason than being a GG descendent... owing to the fact that she was muggleborn. grindie From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 1 02:38:17 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 02:38:17 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter? In-Reply-To: <20050731224956.68303.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135840 Magda wrote: > It is noticeable that he tells the sisters nothing that isn't already > public knowledge (albeit a rather limited public). And it's > noticeable too that he claims that Dumbledore's hand was injured at > the MoM during the battle when he knows fully well that it was > injured getting the ring. Potioncat: Actually, he lied more honestly than that. What he said was: "The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustanined a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were." He doesn't say when or exactly how DD sustained the injuries. Later DD will also use the phrase "slower reflexes" to explain his condition on the tower. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 02:48:43 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 02:48:43 -0000 Subject: 20-30 in Azkaban for murder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135841 > Hi Potterphiles! > Can you truly imagine Harry with his temper and Ginny with her bad > temper actually getting together? I think the reason why there won't > be an 8th book, is because it would find either Harry or Ginny in > Azkban doing time for murder! :) But seriously, I just can't get > behind them being together, and I agree with the person(sorry, I > delete the emails as I go along so I don't know your name) that wrote, > when did Ginny get so popular and good looking? Is Harry so shallow > that he can't look beneath a plain exterior(especially when he has > known the girl since he was 12) and fall in love? Does every girl he > get with have to be a cheerleader type? It would have shown a lot more > depth of character if she would have stayed plain and he would have > loved her for what was INSIDE. > > just my HO > snapeo'phile Antosha-- Can I imagine it? Um. Yes? Sorry, I usually have more of a sense of humor here, but I'm getting a bit tired of the Harry/Ginny bashing. Who said he is only responding to her because of looks or her supposed popularity? Who said it came out of nowhere? Here's the thing: there's a sizable portion of the fandom--not a majority, not even a plurality, but a goodly chunk nonetheless--WHO SAW THIS COMING. And not because Ginny was cute or sporty or popular, but because, during OotP, when NO ONE could talk to Harry (with the exception of Luna, at the very end) Ginny had a series of fairly crucial conversations with Harry, each of which pulled him out of a major funk. Harry never thinks about her looks. He never talks about her popularity. He thinks about how she makes him feel--and she makes him feel good. "His best source of comfort," not "the hottie on his elbow that makes all the homies green with envy." I don't think that's shallow at all. Antosha, who's prone to moodiness and married to an Irish redhead--fifteen years and no blood on the floor yet! From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 02:52:37 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 02:52:37 -0000 Subject: Emmeline Vance - Whats behind Downing Street Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135842 Emmeline was murdered in just around the corner from 10 Downing Street London. According to the Press it happened in the Prime Ministers Back Yard. Snape claims to have been involved in leading the DE's to Emmeline so I want Answers! Where was she going? How could Snape claim that his information ws relevant to this? And why are we given this infuriating teaser about Emmeline Vance? Getting to the bottom of this, might lead to some great stuff, or it could be a boring dead end, with two years or so till book seven we might as well chance it hey? So what's behind Number 10 Downing Street? A road called Horseguards Parade upon which sits some interesting and possibly related Landmarks. First, there is the Foreign offices. Which could perhaps mean that Emmeline was on her way to coordinate the efforts of the order with countries other than England.. The interesting result of this hypothesis is that Snape might indeed be feeding Voldemrt relatively useless information in the general vicinity of, Dumbledore is trying to get the cooperation of foreign muggles, or he may have gone as far to say Dumbledore is sending an Ambassador to the muggle foreign office on Thursday 3pm. Probably more informtion than Dumbledore would share.. anyhow that possibility is quite fascinating.. but less intriguing than the next Landmark on Horseguards Parade. The Old War Office Building - This building was in exclusive use as the War Offices use up until the end of WWII. (Grindelwalds War in the WW) it has undergone some refurbishments since then but the General offices of Londons Defense Department now stand in a new buildig elsewhere nearby. OTOH this old building has some intriguing History. When it was in use, there was an interesting rumour/fact about the health of its employees. The were known to get something called the Winchester Throat, a chest illness which was thought to be related to the ground that the building was built upon. It was once a large cesspit, apparently, Euww. Hmm now everybdy loves a good Wives tale, and I think Jo is one of them.. it's not unusual for something in HP to be a real muggle world thing taken, tweaked and used by JKR in her HP saga. Now it's probably far fetched, but its interesting anyway. If this Old War Office building has strange traces of *Magic* (read phenomenon) in its history is it possible that it could appeal especially to Jo as a place to stage part of her climactic episode.. Anyhow, I like it.. Valky - waiting to hear from British folk about the mysterious murder of Emmeline too.. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 02:54:02 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 02:54:02 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? - Pre... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > Well, yes. I think we did miss that in HBP, coming out of the blue. It's > funny, I used to ship Luna with Harry before HBP, but Harry/Ginny didn't > bother me that much. Maybe it's just that Dumbledore's death and Snape's betrayal > bothered me more. (blast, I'm rambling) > > Amber > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Not to get grumpy, but there are hints that Harry's feelings for Ginny are changing from early on in HBP, beginning most clearly when he's annoyed that she's going off with Dean on the train. And as for it coming out of nowhere, many, MANY fans started picking up on Harry/ Ginny vibes in OotP and before. I love Luna too, and could easily have seen Harry with her, but Harry/Ginny seemed pretty clearly where she was headed from early in the book. Antosha From andie1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 03:03:49 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 03:03:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > All you people who are satisfied with the way the romance between > Harry and Ginny was written, and who have found enough clues to judge > that relationship positively, can you help me? > > Can you give me the canon bits that helped you forge your judgement, > the hints that helped you make a diagnosis? Well, I think the foreshadowing of H/G started in SS and continued on... SS 1. We already know by the end of this book that Ginny loves Harry. Yes, it can be passed off as an infatuation because he is famous, but still... everyone knows that Ginny loves Harry. (We can also see the resemblence [in looks only at this point] to Lily Evans. Harry looks likes James; Ginny looks like Lily.) COS 2. Ginny plays a major role. Ron tells us that Ginny has been talking about Harry all summer, but of course, she doesn't normally speak in front of Harry because she is embarrased around him due to her crush. 3. We hear more about Ginny's crush from Tom Riddle, who notes that Ginny tend to be afraid that Harry Potter will never like her. 4. "His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad..." Need I say more? 5. Harry saves Ginny's life and is very protective regarding keeping Ginny out of trouble regarding the entire situation. POA Don't see much of Ginny... GOF 6. Ginny is very disappointed when Ron says "Ginny, you can go to the ball with Harry and I'll just..." She already has promised Neville she would go with him, and certainly was regretting it at that moment since she could have had her chance with Harry. OOP 7. Ginny makes her real debute. She has "given up" on Harry and decides that she will pursue other relationships. Because of this, Harry notices her more because she is more herself around him. She talks and jokes - more like the Ginny Ron describes to us in COS, but a Ginny we have yet to see until now. 8. We can assume that Ginny and Hermione have talked about Harry & Ginny; we find out later (in HBP) that Hermione told Ginny to date around and be herself to see if Harry will notice her more. 9. Ginny makes herself a part of the DA and is directly involved in the DOM showdown, thus, making her character more pronounced. 10. Ginny is the only one that can get Harry out of his funk after he shuts himself away - thinking that Voldemort was possessing him. She does not back down or appear tenative when she speaks to him - as Ron and Hermione both do throughout the book. HBP 11. Slughorn says he just adored Lily Evans. He also inducts Ginny into his Slug Club. Thus, another similarity to Harry's mother. Also, from what Slughorn says here, Lily was a bit cheeky... as is Ginny. 12. Harry and Ginny develop a deeper friendship through the summer as Harry stays at the Burrow. He laughs at her imitations of Plegm/Fleur. 13. Harry, while always protective of Ginny because she is Ron's sister, begins to rationalize this protectiveness. He thinks about it and rationalizes that this is why he doesn't like seeing her kissing (snogging) Dean. 14. He starts dreaming about her. 15. Her need to move from boyfriend to boyfriend, as both Ron and the twins dislike, stems from her inability to have the man she really wants - Harry. 16. Harry's overall increased maturity lends itself to a deeper relationship in this book... someone Harry knows and not just because she is pretty. Can you say NO CHO!? 17. Eyeball messages... they are meaningful. Harry mentions a few times that their eyes met and that there was immediate understanding. It's wonderful to have that connection to someone and to know someone that well. 18. I see this as a typical "first deep" teenage relationship. I remember it well... :) Physical AND emotional... Ginny loves him enough to understand what Harry is like and what he must do. I only hope that he comes back for her in the end. There it is... my long list of reasons why I have always been a H/G shipper. I totally respect those that have other shipping ideas and theories, but for me, H/G makes the most sense and always has. grindieloe :) From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Mon Aug 1 01:51:21 2005 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (James Bennett) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:51:21 -0400 Subject: Question about the Book HBP Message-ID: <200508010149.j711nWai028727@ms-smtp-04.tampabay.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135845 Some thoughts I would like to share with everyone after reading the HBP for the second time. They maybe questions and some things may be theory and some maybe flat statements. DD although it's hard for me to except that he is dead I'm left no other option but he is truly dead. Now with him being dead I still think he will be helping Harry but how he will communicate with Harry? If Harry doesn't return to school than the picture in the head masters office can't help him. Remember the statement "Neither can live while the other is survives". LV had just killed Harry parents and he transferred some of his powers to Harry. Could Harry be one of the Horcruxes? Could it have been transferred to Harry. Because neither can live while the other survives. It fits in my mind any way. Snape could have DD and Snape have worked out what Snape did ahead of time? Snape could have taken Harry before he ran away. I know Snape said LV wants to kill Harry himself but Draco was to kill DD and Snape did it in stead. How will Ron parents handle Ron not returning to school and him going off with Harry to find and kill LV. Well that's enough for now I can't wait to see what others think. Pilotjb3 From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 01:59:23 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:59:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incidentg In-Reply-To: <1122775208.1971.73589.m35@yahoogroups.com> References: <1122775208.1971.73589.m35@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05073118594eb9d19d@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135846 Saraquel says: More significantly, why was Sirius allowed to stay at Hogwarts and not expelled, what punishment did he recieve? If I was Snape, knowing that someone had deliberately set out to either kill me or at least make me into a werewolf for the rest of my life, I would be pretty pissed off if they were only given a detention. =============== The Sirius-admiration I've read about constantly since PoA has always boggled my mind -- since we learned about that particular incident. Sirius was no more than an orchestrator of an attempted murder, and meant to frame an allegedly dear friend for said attempted murder. While Sirius may have been on the "right" side of the fight against Voldemort, he was NOT a nice person and should've been prosecuted then and there, certainly not allowed to remain at school with his intended victim. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 02:25:48 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:25:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Character Development In-Reply-To: <1122854038.3068.15586.m23@yahoogroups.com> References: <1122854038.3068.15586.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05073119253f852b90@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135847 Snapesangel says: > A question (not meant to sound combatative, lol) .Why is Tonks perfect > for Remus? I was genuinely surprised by the pairing because I hadn't > seen any reason why they would be perfect for each other... > Come on and present the argument for the defence - convert me :) ============ Lisa responds: I've been quietly rooting for a Tonks/Lupin pairing since OotP -- and I can give you a reason why! Tonks is a metamophmagus, and as such, can change form at will. What better partner for Lupin? She can transform herself into something that enables her to protect herself (and Lupin, in a way) should Lupin not have access to his wolfsbane potion! Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From AllieS426 at aol.com Mon Aug 1 03:38:00 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 03:38:00 -0000 Subject: Harrys grief In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135848 And in this book, which I hardly noticed the first time reading through, he actually USES his parents' murder to weasel the horcrux memory out of Slughorn. I thought that was unusually Slytherin of him, but he was under the influence of Felix Felicis at the time. Allie --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Lynn Walsh wrote: > I think everyone grieves a bit differently. Actually, > I find that Harry seems to vary in how much he wants > to talk about the deaths that have been important to > him. There are times when he wants to hear about his > parents or Sirius and times when he doesn't and, in fact, > finds it extremely distasteful. He walked out of the > hospital ward when Ron and Hermione started to talk about > Sirius and left Hagrid's hut, too. But he was willing > to talk to Luna and to Nearly Headless Nick. > > Laura Walsh lwalsh at a... From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 03:31:32 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (!) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lupin/Tonks In-Reply-To: <14262fbd05073119253f852b90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050801033132.81869.qmail@web33314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135850 --- Lisa Williams wrote: > Snapesangel says: > > A question (not meant to sound combatative, lol) > .Why is Tonks perfect > > for Remus? I was genuinely surprised by the > pairing because I hadn't > > seen any reason why they would be perfect for each > other... > > Come on and present the argument for the defence - > convert me :) > ============ Cathio responds: This surprised me too. Although I think someone in this group saw it coming. I didn't see the foreshadowing in this relatinship. In fact, I thought Lupin would probably die because he really wouldn't have much of a life after book 7. His job in the order of the phoenix would be gone if Voldemort dies. And then what would he do since he has trouble finding work because of discrimination against werewolves. But now that he has a girlfriend, he has more of a future. So I don't see JKR killing him off in Book 7. Plus I think she said once that she liked Lupin. She probably wanted to give him a better ending. From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 03:50:46 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (!) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape could've used other 2 unforgiveables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801035046.27503.qmail@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135851 If this has been brought up before, please ignore. I know Snape said words to the effect that they were not to kill Harry because Voldemort wanted to do that. But if Snape is so evil why didn't he use one of the other two unforgiveable curses on Harry. They wouldn't have killed Harry. And Snape also doesn't curse Harry until he's unable to control his rage any longer. It seems as though he just wants to leave and not hurt Harry, but Harry gives him no choice by pursuing him. These things make me think that Snape is still on the side of the OotP. Cathio From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 03:41:14 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 03:41:14 -0000 Subject: The matter of horcruxes In-Reply-To: <20050731213622.20857.qmail@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135852 So much to be said about Horcruxes - probably more than about Snape, actually! (I realise I'm in the minority on that one.) First, I'd like to propose an etymological possibility I've not seen yet. I wouldn't suggest it's definitive or even correct - knowing Rowling, there are probably multiple sources. A few more for the mix: "hor-" from the old English "heort," meaning "heart" or "soul." The particular spelling of this derivation seems to refer, subtly, to the man who told Riddle about them: Horace. "-Crux" as chosen for reasons of allusion as well as etymology, referring primarily to the process of crucifixion, which effectively ripped the torso apart interally (with death ensuing from lung collapse). So perhaps a Horcrux may be, among other things, a soul-ripper in the literal as well as metaphysical sense. As for the matter of what some of the other Horcruxes may be: > Morgan: We don't know the process of creating a horcrux, so we don't know if a few minutes alone would have been enough. I am of the theory that the horcrux has to be created during the murder - that LV can't just go around throwing parts of his soul into whatever he wants. In that case he would need considerable planning to use the Sorting Hat, Gryffindor's sword, or any other object not in his possession as a horcrux.< I agree that the lack of information is crucial to the mystery as it stands. The text hasn't yet told us much about the magic involved in Horcrux creation - can the spells, etc. be done in advance? Does the murder activate existing spells, or must it precede the spells? Must the object be present at the murder scene, or merely in the murderer's or victim's possession, or neither? Given that a conscious decision to split the soul seems necessary, I'm inclined to think that the spellwork must be done in advance, with the murder being the final step in the process. Morgan: > If an accidental horcrux had been created when Harry was attacked as a baby it could be any item (or person) at the scene. I'm of the camp that Harry may be a Horcrux, although not one that Voldemort intended to create. Dumbledore did speculate that Nagini might be one, but that was speculation only, and possibly clever misdirection on Rowling's part, included to serve as a red herring and to establish that living things may become Horcruxes. Dumbledore may well be right that Harry's murder was supposed to create the final Horcrux. Given the Godric's Hollow/Gryffindor connections, I'm inclined to think some relevant inanimate object was the intended soul receptacle. Harry was never supposed to be it - but James was never supposed to put up a fight, Lily was never supposed to refuse the chance to survive, the death curse was never supposed to rebound. Make no mistake: Harry, by all indications, has a fully functional soul of his own. But I think a piece of Riddle's may be "piggy-backing" without anyone's realising it. (For an excellent analysis of this, pre-HBP but still relevant in many ways, see http://www.redhen-publications.com/Changeling.html.) Jen Reese: I'm torn on this one. If Tom truly did make his Horcruxes > after 'significant' deaths, I'm wondering whether he would consider > his grandparents significant? They always seemed like an > afterthought. I doubt he would have considered them important enough > to come back later and murder, if they'd happened to be out the > night Riddle Sr. got AK'd. > > I agree the ring was definitely made into a Horcrux following his > father's murder, some time shortly after that party at Slughorns > when Tom has the ring on and asks about making Horcruxes. It makes > sense he would use the ring, an artifact of his Slytherin heritage, > after the death of the last Riddle, the lineage he completely > rejects. > > But I'm still wondering about the diary. I do think Myrtle's death, > although indirect and unplanned, would have been significant to > Riddle. She's killed by the basilisk he's controlling with > Parseltoungue, so I do think it was a murder, even if unintended. Excellent observations about Riddle's psychology! I, too, am uncertain the connection between the murders, the related objects and the Horcruxes. I would guess it to be perhaps less causal as we might believe. hermionegallo: The three Riddles he killed made three Horcruxes, and I find > it unlikely that he killed three people and made only two Horcruxes, > saving one murder to use on something "really special." > My impression is actually that Riddle may have chosen the ring and the diary as receptacles because of their psychological and personal significance, but that other murders may have made them Horcruxes. That is to say: it's possible that Riddle chose to make the diary a Horcrux because he associated it with the first murder he ever committed, but the murder he used to split his soul for it might have been Myrtle's. That's speculation on my part - until we have more information about Horcruxes, nothing is certain. As to where the remaining Horcruxes may be hiding: I agree the locket at 12 Grimmauld (or in Kreacher's or Fletcher's possession), Godric's Hollow, Gringott's and the Chamber of Secrets are all strong possibilities. Harry's got quite a lot of travelling before him - good thing Sirius gave him such a good broom! -hekatesheadband From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 04:26:46 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:26:46 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > wrote: > > All you people who are satisfied with the way the romance between > > Harry and Ginny was written, and who have found enough clues to judge > > that relationship positively, can you help me? > > > > Can you give me the canon bits that helped you forge your judgement, > > the hints that helped you make a diagnosis? > > > Well, I think the foreshadowing of H/G started in SS and continued > on... > > SS > 1. We already know by the end of this book that Ginny loves Harry. > Yes, it can be passed off as an infatuation because he is famous, but > still... everyone knows that Ginny loves Harry. (We can also see the > resemblence [in looks only at this point] to Lily Evans. Harry looks > likes James; Ginny looks like Lily.) > > COS > 2. Ginny plays a major role. Ron tells us that Ginny has been > talking about Harry all summer, but of course, she doesn't normally > speak in front of Harry because she is embarrased around him due to > her crush. > > 3. We hear more about Ginny's crush from Tom Riddle, who notes that > Ginny tend to be afraid that Harry Potter will never like her. > > 4. "His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad..." Need I say > more? > > 5. Harry saves Ginny's life and is very protective regarding keeping > Ginny out of trouble regarding the entire situation. > > POA > Don't see much of Ginny... > > GOF > 6. Ginny is very disappointed when Ron says "Ginny, you can go to the > ball with Harry and I'll just..." She already has promised Neville she > would go with him, and certainly was regretting it at that moment > since she could have had her chance with Harry. > > OOP > 7. Ginny makes her real debute. She has "given up" on Harry and > decides that she will pursue other relationships. Because of this, > Harry notices her more because she is more herself around him. She > talks and jokes - more like the Ginny Ron describes to us in COS, but > a Ginny we have yet to see until now. > > 8. We can assume that Ginny and Hermione have talked about Harry & > Ginny; we find out later (in HBP) that Hermione told Ginny to date > around and be herself to see if Harry will notice her more. > > 9. Ginny makes herself a part of the DA and is directly involved in > the DOM showdown, thus, making her character more pronounced. > > 10. Ginny is the only one that can get Harry out of his funk after he > shuts himself away - thinking that Voldemort was possessing him. She > does not back down or appear tenative when she speaks to him - as Ron > and Hermione both do throughout the book. > > HBP > 11. Slughorn says he just adored Lily Evans. He also inducts Ginny > into his Slug Club. Thus, another similarity to Harry's mother. > Also, from what Slughorn says here, Lily was a bit cheeky... as is > Ginny. > > 12. Harry and Ginny develop a deeper friendship through the summer as > Harry stays at the Burrow. He laughs at her imitations of Plegm/Fleur. > > 13. Harry, while always protective of Ginny because she is Ron's > sister, begins to rationalize this protectiveness. He thinks about it > and rationalizes that this is why he doesn't like seeing her kissing > (snogging) Dean. > > 14. He starts dreaming about her. > > 15. Her need to move from boyfriend to boyfriend, as both Ron and the > twins dislike, stems from her inability to have the man she really > wants - Harry. > > 16. Harry's overall increased maturity lends itself to a deeper > relationship in this book... someone Harry knows and not just because > she is pretty. Can you say NO CHO!? > > 17. Eyeball messages... they are meaningful. Harry mentions a few > times that their eyes met and that there was immediate understanding. > It's wonderful to have that connection to someone and to know someone > that well. > > 18. I see this as a typical "first deep" teenage relationship. I > remember it well... :) Physical AND emotional... Ginny loves him > enough to understand what Harry is like and what he must do. I only > hope that he comes back for her in the end. > > There it is... my long list of reasons why I have always been a H/G > shipper. I totally respect those that have other shipping ideas and > theories, but for me, H/G makes the most sense and always has. > > grindieloe :) 19. All the times Harry became jealous of Ginny and Dean. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 04:39:44 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:39:44 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135854 > hg: > Oh, yes, we werer referring to the same thing, then. But the > special services award is a plaque. Jen: I'm thoroughly confused now, and had to back-up and research where the TR cup came from. Seems like people are suspecting the cup on JKR's website is a clue? That Tom won a cup as well as the plaque, and people suspect he traded the original cup for the Hufflepuff cup? Still, I'd rather have it in the books than just on the website. > hg: > I would think he'd consider the murder of the three Riddles > significant in that he completely eradicated the Riddle family. > As tempting as it is to consider Myrtle's death one that he can > use to make a horcrux, I'm having difficulty embracing it. On the > one hand, it was deliberate that he opened the chamber, deliberate > that he wanted to kill people, even, with the basilisk. Well, he > did instruct it to kill her, didn't he? Okay, now I'm torn. Jen: That's true about the Riddle line being eradicated. That would happen whether Tom murdered them or not, but he would relish doing it all at once. And like you said, things are fuzzy around the Myrtle situation. I'm putting that aside for a minute because something else has me wondering. It seems like Dumbledore is saying LV's appearance changed due to his quest for immortality which we now know is the Horcruxes. So, we first see a glint of his red eyes when he's surveying the treasures at Hepzibah's house. To me that would mean he's already learned how to make Horcruxes, and there's some evidence that the diary and ring are already hidden. But you could also argue it was simply the murders subtly changing his appearance and that the Horcrux making took place during the next ten years. Because we do see a very drastic change in LV's appearance when he requests the job at Hogwarts. Is it reasonable he learned to make the Horcruxes immediately after that conversation with Slughorn? I'm starting to think not. Where would he find out while still at Hogwarts? Did he learn everything he needed to know that summer right after the murders? If so, it must not be terribly complex. Or he had a mentor. > hg: > I think a major part of the puzzle will be determining why he > wants to get back into Hogwarts. I've always been a bit shaky on > him wanting to get back in to take something back: as if he's got > a magpie nest somewhere and wants to collect his things? No, > Dumbledore found his nest and made him give them back when they > were in a nest, so he'd never do that again. Jen: I tend to take DD's words at face value here, that he believes Riddle wanted the job at Hogwarts to find a treasure from one of the other founders (chap. 23 p. 505, US). But I don't think it would be something Riddle stole as a student and hid at Hogwarts (although I guess the COS would make an *excellent* hiding place since no one else can open it!). More likely he wanted to search the castle for a new item and was turned away. > hg: > Smith's murder was a long enough time out of Hogwarts that he > wouldn't be trying to put a cup horcrux back in there, is what I > meant. I got the impression that he worked for B&B for about 5 > years, which would have him disappearing for about 20 years. That > part of the timeline has me confused, because Dumbledore says that > Riddle hasn't been seen for about 10 years when he shows up at the > headmaster's office, and Dumbledore doesn't become headmaster > until 1970. Seems like there's a missing 10 years somewhere. Jen: Oh dear, maths again! I'm wondering if this new information will change the Lexicon dating of when DD became headmaster? The 1970 number was based on when Lupin was probably born and bitten, and how Dumbledore becoming headmaster gave him the opportunity to go to Hogwarts. One has to be an error though, either the info in POA or the new info in HBP. Even if you stretch how long LV worked at B & B, it would still place Voldemort's request to teach around the early 60's, at the latest. Jen, too tired to think anymore tonight. ;) From crisarrieta at ig.com.br Mon Aug 1 04:21:35 2005 From: crisarrieta at ig.com.br (tina_00) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:21:35 -0000 Subject: "Magic always leaves traces..." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135855 I loved this post, so I can't resist commenting on it. ;-) Jen wrote: "It also struck me that he (Dumbledore) refers to the cave as Riddle's style, not Voldemort's. Either Dumbledore is once again refusing to acknowledge who Riddle has become, or he literally means Riddle placed the locket in the cave as far back as the murder of Hepzibah Smith. There are moments in the cave when he says 'Voldemort', but in that particular instance he refers to Riddle." And SSSusan commented: "A very interesting catch. Given that DD *does* call him Voldemort other times while they're in the cave, I would think this may be a very important point. Does that also mean that DD could truly sense the difference between "Riddle style" and "Voldemort style," I wonder?" Now me (tina): Funny, I didn't read it that way. Actually, one of the things I liked most in HBP (and unfortunately, I didn't like the book all that much) is how it shows how and why Tom Riddle becomes Voldemort, and it explains the reason why Dumbledore calls him "Tom" when they're fighting at the Ministry in OotP. I used to see it as simply Dumbledore's way to taunt Voldemort, but now it seems there's more to it: Voldemort *is* Tom Riddle, and did not become something completely different. Voldemort *tried* to become something completely different, but failed to do so. Voldemort is still driven by Tom's fears ? the desperate attempt to avoid death, the obsession over power, because that's what, in Tom's mind, makes someone special. I think this is made clear when Dumbledore explains to Harry `There is nothing to be feared from a body, Harry, any more than there is anything to be feared from the darkness. Lord Voldemort, who of course secretly fears both, disagrees.( )' HBP, page 529, Bloomsbury edition. At this point, the fact that you can't separate Tom from Voldemort was already shown through the book, so I didn't see any importance on the way Dumbledore chooses to call Voldemort. SSSusan again: "For surely as Riddle matured & deepened his talents, his schemes & protections would have increased in complexity?" Me (tina): Increased in complexity, certainly, but wouldn't change. Looking from this point of view, we can say that Voldemort's schemes and actions are boringly predictable (to Dumbledore, at least). If not, then Dumbledore's lessons wouldn't be of much use, would they? Dumbledore trusts that Tom's old fears and desires will always determine how today's Tom will act. Jen wrote: "The big question is, did Harry learn enough in the cave to recognize and defeat Voldemort's obstacles surrounding the remaining Horcruxes? Sometimes clever, sometime crude, mixed with a fear of 'darkness and death'...that seems to be Riddle's preoccupation at the time he created the protections in the cave. Although I think Dumbledore is saying that like any creative art, a magical style is recognizable across time and skill levels. So even Voldemort's advanced magic would presumably have undercurrents of Riddle's preoccupation with darkness, death, dismemberment, etc." Me (tina): I think Harry didn't learn much in the cave ? the cave was more of an example of everything Dumbledore had told him in their lessons. But I do share your concern on another thing: is Harry skilled enough to face Voldemort's obstacles? What Dumbledore was doing seemed extremely tricky to me ? he was recognizing every bit of magic Voldemort had set, and they didn't seem as "fun" ? or as relatively harmless - as the tasks in PS. Since I don't believe Harry will die trying to find the Horcruxes, maybe the other locations are not so heavily protected, or at least the protections will not be so impossible for Harry to figure them out. Personally, I'm afraid of that possibility, because it would make me feel like Rowling's cheating. Oh, well, I hope this makes sense. I usually find myself tongue-tied every time I try to write in this group (I'm shy *blushes*) Tina From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 1 04:48:03 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:48:03 -0000 Subject: Horcrux from Grindelwald? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135856 aussie: Dang that 1945 date for the Dark Wizard Grindelwald being "defeated" and Tom Riddle leaving Hogwarts after already making a couple of Horcruxes at least. After getting 2 of Hepzibah Smith's treasures, Riddle disappeared overseas and reappeared as Lord Voldemort - no more mention of Riddle. Proposal: Just as baby Harry "defeated" LV making him disappeared to the Black Forest, Germany, Grindelwald may have sought solitude to regain his strength. Instead of a book smart, but experience poor, wizard like Quirrel meeting him, Grindelwald met Riddle. Tom then could have furthered his way along the Dark path using Grindalwald, his new mentor, as the next victim to create a Horcrux. * According to DD's Choclate card, Dumbledore "defeated", not killed, the Dark Wizard Grindelwald. * Grindelwald was a key question in JKR's recent interview. She said he is now dead - although, DD may not have been the one to finish him off. * That dang date of 1945 still makes me suspicious of hidden secrets. * If Riddle went overseas and had significant experiences to change him into LV, then that would suggest a hiding place overseas. We may get to see some of the locations we've heard of in previous books: - Drumstrang: a Dark Arts School in Bulgaria - Charlie's Dragon sanctuary in Romania - Beaubatons school? - Nah, not attractive enough for Dark Wizards. To refresh your memory, when talking of Grindelwald in the interview: MA: You've gone very quiet. [All laugh; JKR maniacally.] MA: We like when you get very quiet, it means ? ES: You're clearly hiding something. -aussie- From catlady at wicca.net Mon Aug 1 04:56:24 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:56:24 -0000 Subject: many replies to many posts from many people, ALL SPOILERS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135857 Sherry spinelli wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/133250 : << There are a couple other things at number 12 Grimauld place. When they are cleaning the drawing room one of the things they find in the curio cabinet is a music box that makes them all sleepy (sorry don't have book in front of me for exact page) but it says something like "until Ginny had the good sense to close it" another thing in that cabinet was a vile of something that looked like blood. >> I remembered that vial of blood when we read about Slughorn putting his dragon's blood back into the vial, but a bit dusty from the walls. That made me suspect that the one in the Black House is also dragon's blood. Rolshan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/133572 : << I still can't get Hermione's OWLs to add up. We are told she got 11 OWLs, but she was only taking 10 classes - no? >> Hermione took: 1. Astronomy 2. Care Of Magical Creatures 3. Charms 4. DADA 5. Herbology 6. History of Magic 7. Potions 8. Transfiguration 9. Ancient Runes 10. Arithmancy 11. ????? I posted something on the other list the other week about Divination and Arithmancy were only half-day exams, so if Ancient Runes (that Hermione took while Harry and Ron had Friday off) was also a half-day exam, she could have taken another half-day exam that same day. Some listies have suggested that she (and every other Muggle-born) could ace the Muggle Studies OWL without taking the class (also I think they'd fail for failing to give the erroneous answers taught in class). I suggested that the wizarding world is so different from the Muggle world that there could be an OWL exam that only prefects are allowed to take (so Harry wouldn't know about it, and Ron doesn't seem the type to take any more OWL exams than he HAS to), with questions about leadership and discipline and authority. I had another idea, that one History of Magic exam tests for 2 OWLs, one for the BC History of Magic and one for the AD History of Magic. I don't know if seeing Harry's OWL results blows that out of the water, or if it can be argued that they don't further depress people who failed both by telling them that they missed TWO qualifications. In any case, I don't understand how Hermione only got 11 OWLs when Bill and Percy got 12. She has been established as an unusually outstanding student that doesn't come along as often as every 4 years. If they both got both 2 History OWLs and Prefect OWL, why didn't she? Luckie Meredith wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134516 : << the watch Ron was given in HBP, which is similar to the watch DD pulls out in SS/PS on Privet Drive. >> The watches are described differently. DD's in PS/SS "It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge." Ron's watch in HBP: "a heavy gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars instead of hands." Ron's watch - no hands. DD's watch - 12 hands. Ron's watch - odd symbols. DD's watch - no mention of odd symbols. Ron's watch - moving stars. DD's watch - moving planets. I also think that 'instead of hands' is a bit closer to the center than 'around the edge'. Some suggest that the 12 hands on DD's watch are 12 people over whom he is watching, but I think that watch is strictly astrological In my theory, the 12 hands divide the 12 houses. (In the physical world, the sky turns and the Houses stay in place except for like 1 degree a day, but the watch face stays in place and the House Hands turn.) The planets around the edge move in accordance with the planets in the real sky. DD knows, or there is some marking not specified in JKR's description, where the constellations are. Such a watch can tell time AND tell you the moment's astrological influences. I don't think JKR believes in astrology, but the centaurs do. I have no theory for Ron's watch yet. Juli wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134624 of sociopaths and young Tom M. Riddle: << They appear to be *incapable of any true emotions*, from love to shame to guilt. >> What about resentment, anger, and hatred? Tom certainly has shown those, and I think they're emotions. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134877 : << It's interesting that something about the announcement makes it clear that the groom was a Muggle. Why do you think they did that? >> Maybe it's something like the location of the wedding was at a Muggle church, that the bride is a former pupil of Hogwarts School while the groom attended Eton College and St. Andrews University, or the groom's father was an electrical engineer. IIRC many engagement or wedding announcements in newspapers include that kind of detail. Caro wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/135361 : << If I was is search of a person I would send him/her an owl with a little note (lte's say: "Got ya in the end!") and follow the bird. As long as there was no fidelius charm on the residence you should be able to find the one you are searching. >> My own theory, despite what JKR wrote on her site, is that post owls fly to their addressee through some other dimension. They take off in normal space and fly to the sky, then move sideways into a dimension where they can see their addressee shining like a lantern in the distance, then on approach they move back into normal space and even Muggles can see them arriving. Zgirnius wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135718 : << And we don't know when the HBP wrote those notes. I mean, was he so brilliant that he walked into 6th year NEWT potions every day, did whatever potion assigned that day in a new, creative, and better way, and then in the spare time left in the class, wrote down notations of his improvements? >> While reading every post on this list before posting my replies, I got so tired of hearing how brilliant Snape was to write in his old textbook that I developed a theory that his mother or other wizarding relative was a Potions expert and leafed through his Potions textbook stating corrections on the recipes and the kid hastily wrote them all down from dictation and thus, like Harry, appeared to be an extra-good Potions student due to outside help. I can think of only two reasons for writing 'just shove a bezoar down their throat' in the antidote section. Once is that Snape's tutor wrote it down for Snape to use in class or in life, and the other is that the book magically wrote it down for Harry to use in class. I mean, it makes no sense to me that Snape would write that down for his own use -- it is the sort of thing that one can REMEMBER, not like the detailed corrections to recipes. From laura_clapham2002 at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 1 04:50:51 2005 From: laura_clapham2002 at yahoo.com.au (laura_clapham2002) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:50:51 -0000 Subject: horcrux timeline and murders Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135858 Hi everyone! I'm sure this has been mentioned and theorised about already but it is too difficult to search through the thousands of posts post HBP. In writing this I am making the assumption that a horcrux needs to be made within a relatively short time of the relevant murder - we do not know this for sure but it seems to be a reasonable assumption (i think). People have suggested a wide variety of ideas for this, my favourite being that the Horcrux must be planned in advance, with the murder as the final stage, but hopefully many people agree that it seems it would need to be created sometime proximate to the murder. Okay, so we know Tom Riddle was 16 when the Chamber of Secrets was opened - this must have happened before the murder of the Riddle family as he wasn't wearing the black ring in the Diary. So I'm proposing that Tom was in his 5th year (after New Year's)when he opened the Chamber and killed Moaning Myrtle. Then between 5th and 6th years Tom murders the Riddle family. Then during his 6th year he has the Horcrux conversation with Slughorn. IT seems this has to have occurred in his 6th year as Slughorn calls his a prefect but not Head Boy. Theoretically he could be at the end of his 5th year but then you would think he would not have had time to commit the Riddle murders... I already thought Moaning Myrtle was unlikely to have been used for a horcrux as I don't htink the murder was technically or directly commited by Tom, but now thinking about the timeline it seems even less likely as it would have been committed at least 6 months prior. However, the Riddle murders to me now also seem less likely to have been used for Horcruxes. Their murders were committed before The Horcrux conversation with Slughorn, and it did not seem like Tom had figured out all the necessary steps for creating one - IIRC he asks Slughorn exactly how a horcrux gets created. Also Dumbledore says he believes Tom did not like to hold onto things after they had been made Horcruxes, and he is wearing the ring during this conversation. So, it is reasonable to think that he did not manage to create a Horcrux for some time following this conversation - in order to research this further where would he have gone? would he have had to wait until the summer following 6th year, or perhaps after school entirely. But even if he managed it by the end of his 6th year, would the Riddle murders have been "fresh" enough to be used for the creation of Horcruxes? So, if Voldemort wanted to use significant murders for his Horcruxes, who would they have been? Have I missed anything? What do people think? Laura C From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 05:06:01 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 05:06:01 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135860 Please ignore my previous message, it was sent in error In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" Wrote > Dumbledore *sacrificing* his life > is completely in character for me. But a pointless sacrifice was not in character and Dumbledore's death accomplished nothing, in fact it was a disaster because now the most powerful weapon the good guys had (with the possible exception of Harry) is gone. If Dumbledore did have some secret grand master plan cooked up with Snape I think it is very safe to say that things did not go as expected. I do not believe that having a gang of Death Eaters and a homicidal werewolf who likes to attack kids enter the castle while Dumbledore was away was part of the plan. I also do not think letting Harry watch as Snape killed Dumbledore without telling Harry it was what Dumbledore wanted could have possibly been part of the plan. In book 5 Dumbledore blundered in not telling Harry earlier about the prophecy and a good man died as a result, I don't believe he would make the same mistake and keep Harry in the dark again. He must have known if he saw his Headmaster murdered Harry would spend the rest of his life if need be to hunt down and kill the murderer, he might even make getting Snape a greater priority than killing Voldemort. It seems to me it would have been prudent to say to Harry "Oh by the way, Professor Snape is going to kill me with an unforgivable curse but don't worry, I asked him to do it". Dumbledore told Harry nothing of the sort so we can conclude that Snape's actions were not part of the plan and thus Snape is just what he seems to be, evil. Eggplant From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 04:58:57 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:58:57 -0000 Subject: Lupin/Tonks In-Reply-To: <20050801033132.81869.qmail@web33314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135861 > > Snapesangel says: > > > A question (not meant to sound combatative, lol) > > .Why is Tonks perfect > > > for Remus? I was genuinely surprised by the > > pairing because I hadn't > > > seen any reason why they would be perfect for each > > other... > > > Come on and present the argument for the defence - > > convert me :) > > ============ > I was surprised, too. I went thru OotP and didn't see anything to link them other than they carried Harry's trunk into Grimmauld place together. And there was a couple of times Lupin spoke right after Tonks. But otherwise NOTHING! Not even when Tonks bit it in the MoM during the fight (which allowed Bella to go after Sirius). casmir2012 From juli17 at aol.com Mon Aug 1 05:40:07 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 01:40:07 EDT Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not Message-ID: <1ad.3c037b0a.301f0fb7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135862 Juli17: > Then Harry feels a white-hot whiplike something hit him across the > face, and is slammed back against the ground. (And is the first, and > only, time Snape physically takes action against Harry) Caro: What about Buckbeak? He there arrives to defend Harry. Couldn't it be that Harry was stroked by his wings or tail? I don't think that Snape really had the time to curse Harry and there was no mentioning of him of Buckbeak being affected in any way. But apart from these little additions I do agree with you. Caro Julie again: Harry didn't hear rush of Buckbeak's wings until after he felt the white-hot whiplike sensation hit him across the face, and was slammed against the ground and saw spots in front of his eyes. No, I think Snape hit him with something, basically a resounding slap across the face. Which, given what Snape is certainly capable of, and his pain/rage at Harry's coward accusation, is pretty mild indeed. One might even say inexcusably lame, if Snape is supposed to be ESE. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Mon Aug 1 06:12:19 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 02:12:19 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's Ironclad reason for trusting Snape (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135863 I've been thinking about McGonagall's statement that Dumbledore hinted repeatedly about having an ironclad reason for trusting Snape. Obviously Snape expressing remorse about revealing the prophecy to Voldemort isn't even close to an ironclad reason for trusting him. Ironclad implies virtually no doubt exists. It implies that it's not a matter of Dumbledore simply taking Snape at his word, but that Snape would have so much to lose if he betrayed Dumbledore, there's virtually no chance it will happen. And what's more ironclad than an Unbreakable Vow, when breaking it means certain death? I know I'm not the first on this list to suggest this theory, but I think it could have gone something like this: Snape overhears part of the prophecy and tells Voldemort. Some time later he learns that Voldemort has fitted the theory to the Potters and has targeted them for elimination. He's appalled that he will be an accessory to the murders, because he cares about Lily, someone whose talents he respected and who treated him as a person. Perhaps he even loved her, in his own sadly deficient way. He doubtless doesn't care a fig about James, the man who tormented him in school, and got the girl--except that he does owe James that life debt. And the Potter baby, well he is nothing to Snape but a hazy concept. Still, the baby is Lily's child as well as James', and besides, Snape is no baby-killer. Snape makes his decision, and he goes to Dumbledore. He tells Dumbledore how he told LV what he'd heard of the prophecy, and how LV chose to interpret it. Snape expresses great remorse for his unwitting error, and he tells Dumbledore that he wants to end his allegiance to LV and renounce his Death Eater standing. He's seen the error of his ways and he doesn't have the stomach for killing innocents. He wants to help Dumbledore save the Potters. (We don't know what additional information Snape gave Dumbledore to support his genuine intent, but Snape no doubt revealed a few things, one of which may be that Voldemort had created horcruxes in an attempt to make himself immortal). This is a difficult request, and Dumbledore knows it. One can't just leave LV's employ (as Sirius noted). Snape is also asking Dumbledore to help him survive the transition, to protect him. Now, Dumbledore is nothing if not a man who believes in second chances, and in redemption. He can no more refuse Snape than he can turn one of his students out of Hogwarts. And Dumbledore can offer some protection, but in the end, the only way for Snape to leave LV is if LV *doesn't* know he left. I.e., Snape can "die" and go into permanent hiding--or he can become a spy against LV, which will be incredibly dangerous for him. Snape flagellates himself as well as he flagellates others. He's not going to get redemption by hiding. He'd rather become a spy, and he'll accept the risk. Dumbledore assents, and Snape goes back to LV to plant the idea of going undercover at Hogwarts. LV goes for it, and everything is set. In September, 1981, Snape will start his new position as Potions Master at Hogwarts. And Dumbledore will protect him as much as he can, while also keeping an eye on him--because while he'd like to completely trust Severus Snape, one can't be too careful with former Death Eaters, can one? In the meantime the Potters have been warned of LV's intent to kill them and are sent into hiding, with only Secret Keeper Sirius aware of where they are. Sadly, we know it all goes very wrong, and on October 31st Voldemort kills James and then Lily, and attempts to kill Harry, only to have his AK backfire and turn him into Vapormort. Harry lives, the first and only to survive an AK. The next twenty-four hours are a mystery at the moment, but what if Snape came to the realization that LV had discovered the Potter's hiding place, either because LV said so, or because he overheard something. Snape then follows LV, hoping to find a way to stop him from killing the Potters and their child. Alas, he isn't successful, because while LV knows the location of the hiding place, Snape does not, and he can't gain entrance. He is helpless until it is all over, and the Potters are dead, thus the secret is released and the location revealed. Snape enters and sees the bodies, but no sign of Voldemort. And in the midst of it all, the baby, Harry, is crying bloody murder, and on his forehead there is a strange burn mark. After doing everything he could to save the Potters, even warning James that Sirius wasn't a reliable Secret Keeper, Snape is left facing the fact that he is now complicit in the murder of a man to whom he owed a life debt, and a woman he cared about a great deal (even loved). He doesn't understand everything that's occurred, but he does the one thing he can after contacting Dumbledore with the news: he grabs baby Harry and leaves. After dealing with certain specifics (perhaps including removing James and Lily's bodies), Dumbledore meets up with Snape at Spinner's End. (Hogwarts seems unlikely, as McGonagall doesn't seem to know the whereabouts of Harry Potter). Perhaps they perform some magic protection on Harry, or perhaps they don't. But it won't be enough, and Dumbledore must quickly decide how best to protect Harry, because he is sure Voldemort will return some day. Snape is no less certain. Dumbledore decides Harry will be safest with his mother's family, which has even more inpenetrable protection than Hogwarts thanks to Lily's sacrifice. When Harry is old enough to come to Hogwarts, they will have to figure out a way to keep him completely safe there. Now, Snape, who feels nothing for baby Harry, except perhaps irritation at his crying, is filled with remorse and anger. He can't undo what's been done. He can't bring back Lily, and now he can never repay his life debt to James. But, he thinks, perhaps in a moment of irrational emotion, maybe there is something else he can do, something if not equal, at least close enough. He can take an Unbreakable Vow to protect their son, Harry. Dumbledore is stunned when Snape passionately offers to do just this. He would never, ever ask Snape to do such a thing. But Snape is adamant. He wants to be free of his guilt, at least for the moment. When Harry grows up and comes to Hogwarts, not only will the charms over the school protect him, but so will Snape. Harry Potter never come to harm, so long as Severus Snape can help it. Dumbledore warns Snape of the enormity of his vow, but he will take any help he can get, for Harry's survival is paramount. So he agrees. And the witness...Hagrid, whether because there is no one else Dumbledore can pull away from Hogwarts or the Order at the moment, or because he'd already been summoned. By the next night Harry is safely on the Dursley's doorstep, and Snape is back at his position at Hogwarts. For the next nearly ten years, Dumbledore and Snape will go on as headmaster and teacher, aware of what (or should I say who) will one day come. Dumbledore repeatedly assures McGonagall and others in the Order, who express doubt about Snape's true alliegiance, that he has an ironclad reason for trusting Snape. And fifteen years later, he tells Harry for the umpteenth time that he trusts Severus Snape *completely.* And when Harry finds out that Snape related the prophecy to Voldemort, and thus set in motion the chain of events leading to his parents' death, Dumbledore tells Harry that he has no idea how much regret Snape felt. So much regret in fact, that he took an Unbreakable Vow to protect the son of a man he despised, and of a woman he may have loved and lost--a boy whose physical features, personality, and very presence continually remind him of those two people who were the cause of so much emotional turmoil in his life, as well as the painful truth of his role in their deaths. And I have no doubt when Snape took that vow all those years earlier, he did not foresee how difficult it would be for him, or how it would bring out the worst in him. (Though I suspect he considers the latter irrelevant, as long as he is keeping to the letter of the vow.) --Okay, I don't know if this is all how it will play out, but I think it could, and an Unbreakable Vow definitely would be an ironclad reason to trust someone (which was why Narcissa was so relieved when Snape took it at Spinner's End). It could also explain why Snape's hand twitched (what happens if two Unbreakable Vows clash with each other?), and why Hagrid has never uttered a single word of doubt about Snape (not even AFTER Snape AKed Dumbledore, which in this case would be more than just an odd ommision). I'm sure I missed some points that might negate this theory, so have at it ;-) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 1 06:40:43 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 06:40:43 -0000 Subject: Emmeline Vance - Whats behind Downing Street In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Emmeline was murdered in just around the corner from 10 Downing >Street London. According to the Press it happened in the Prime >Ministers Back Yard. I take that expression to mean 'in the immediate vacinity, not specifically 'behind' so am expanding the area. Immedediately behind Downing Street (over Horse Guard's Road) is St James Park, so she could have been going for a lunchtime or evening stroll. At the oppostite end of the park is Buckingham Palace, but I would not place that as the immediate vacinity. Opposite the entrance to Downing Street, on the other side of Whitehall is the current Ministry of Defence Building. >.. but less intriguing than the next Landmark on Horseguards >Parade. > > The Old War Office Building - This building was in exclusive use as > the War Offices use up until the end of WWII. (Grindelwalds War in >the WW) This is not on Horseguard's Road. This is further away along Whitehall on the other side of the road heading towards Trafalgar Square. The Palace of Westminster containing the Houses of Parliament is nearer to Downing Street (in the other direction) than the Old War Offices. The actual command of the war took place from the Cabinet War Rooms which are on Horse Gurard's Road and are adjacent to Downing Street, but this is now a museum which would have been packed with Muggles. I'm sure this would have been mentioned. > Valky - waiting to hear from British folk about the mysterious murder > of Emmeline too.. This whole area is very touristy as Westminster Abbey is also there as is the Cenotaph and the old Admiralty Building through which you can enter Horse Guard's Parade, which is actually just a huge empty parade ground unless they happen to be Trooping The Colour or something! There is also a Theatre, and several pubs and a couple of restaurants in Whitehall plus the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food (or whatever it's called now), the HQ of the Diplomatic Protection Group branch of the Metropolitan Police in Great Scotland Yard (not to be confused with New Scotland Yard) and several other office buildings. My conclusion is that this is an extremely busy area of London and she could have been doing anything! Sorry. Karen From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 1 06:53:23 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 06:53:23 -0000 Subject: Emmeline Vance - Whats behind Downing Street In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Emmeline was murdered in just around the corner from 10 Downing Street > London. According to the Press it happened in the Prime Ministers Back > Yard. Geoff: The PM commented to Fudge about the murder: "It happened just round the corner from here, as a matter of fact. The papers had a field day with it: 'Breakdown of law and order in the Prome Minister's back yard..." (HBP "The Other Minister" p. 19 UK edition) These are phrases which we, in the UK, would use to refer to an area close but not necessarily the next street. (Another one would be 'in your neck of the woods'). Following the Birmingham tornado last week, I actually remarked yesterday to a fellow church member, who is from South Birmingham, "That's pretty well in your back yard isn't it?" knowing that he had lived within /a mile or so/ of the affected area. If there had been a real life murder of a member of the public around the Downing Street area, it could easily have been in St.James' Park, which many people use in the course of the day. From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 07:00:25 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:00:25 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Please ignore my previous message, it was sent in error > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" Wrote > > > Dumbledore *sacrificing* his life > > is completely in character for me. > > But a pointless sacrifice was not in character and Dumbledore's death > accomplished nothing, in fact it was a disaster because now the most > powerful weapon the good guys had (with the possible exception of > Harry) is gone. snippity-snip This is why DD "froze" Harry...so that no matter what happened..Harry would see it play out. IMHO if DD trusted Snape to do the "Snape thing" then he most certainly trusted Harry to do the "Harry thing"... I still believe that DD trusted Snape to act in his own best interests. I also believe that DD appointed Snape to the DADA teacher due to the Vance deaths--after that DD is upset..(what if the argument between snape and DD was Snape seeking to go back to being potions master---apparently DD believes Snape is one, yet refuses to reinstate him.(basis for argument Hargrid overheard.....)). I believe DD appointed snape to a doomed position because Snape really doesn't belong in Hogwarts--and there are other schemes DD can put into place to allow Snape a "comfy spot"... Snape paid for his Sirius baiting in that unlike sirius....DD has a serious concern with snape....(i.e. Snape put all this crap in motion to begin with) Snape made his decision with the unbreakable vow....since Snape made that vow there is no way that dd would sacrifice a student before a teacher....Snape knows this, yet, he made it...He figured DD would rescue him. DD does not! If Snape made a vow...DD is not about to do dark magic to help him to escape. Hence Snape's treatments of Harry. Snape treats him horribly in the hopes than DD will step in.. Instead, DD does not step in, and the consequences of Snape's choices worsen... I think DD always has Snape's "number"(i.e. trust him to do the bad/act in one's own interest thing....and when he's in doubt because of Harry's complaints....he assigns Snape to the DADA position.(do or die time for Snape). Snape could have turned it down...but he did not...hence the choice is made... (can you just imagine....DD after ring horcrux destroyed...Severus brew the stopper of death for me." DD said, "Severus, you know what this means?" DD: "That I will die eventually?" Snape: "yes" DD: "I'm going to do that anyway/anyhow." Due to Snape's Unbreakable Vow---Draco's inability left him no choice to act otherwise in the presence of the DE's. Hence DD froze Harry...Harry had to see; even if he didn't understand the intracasies... Doddie (who loves the fact that DD wouldn't save Snape from the DADA curse; nor would he rescue Snape from his unbreakable Vow!) From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 07:05:20 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:05:20 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Ironclad reason for trusting Snape (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135867 Julie: > Obviously Snape expressing remorse about revealing the prophecy > to Voldemort isn't even close to an ironclad reason for trusting him. > Ironclad implies virtually no doubt exists. It implies that it's not a > matter of Dumbledore simply taking Snape at his word, but that > Snape would have so much to lose if he betrayed Dumbledore, > there's virtually no chance it will happen. oiboyz: Couldn't agree more; the ironclad reason *can't* be just that Snape felt bad about the prophecy. DD's not just taking the risk for himself; he's put Snape in a position, both at Hogwarts and in the Order, to harm Harry and betray everyone. I don't think even DD would do that based just on a feeling that Snape's on the level. He must have had some other reason, which will be revealed in Book 7 and change the minds of all those who are now convinced that Snape is ESE! :) Julie: > (We don't know what additional information Snape gave > Dumbledore to support his genuine intent, but Snape no > doubt revealed a few things, one of which may be that > Voldemort had created horcruxes in an attempt to make > himself immortal). oiboyz: My impression from HBP is that Voldie wouldn't tell anybody about the Horcruxes, not even his most faithful Death Eater. They're the key to his immortality; if you know about the Horcruxes, you know how to kill Voldemort. He ain't sharing that secret with anybody. I bet Harry is now the only person besides LV himself who knows. Oh, wait-- RAB knows too, if he's still alive. However, I'm sure Snape did come up with *some* useful information for the Order. Julie: > Now, Dumbledore is nothing if not a man who > believes in second chances, and in redemption. He can > no more refuse Snape than he can turn one of his students > out of Hogwarts. oiboyz: But he can refuse to let Snape *teach* at Hogwarts. The fact that he doesn't tells us that he trusts Snape; that it's more than just, "I have to give him a second chance because I'm Dumbledore." Julie: > only to have his AK backfire and turn him into > Vapormort. oiboyz: Vapormort! Haha! Hadn't heard that one before. Julie: > Snape enters > and sees the bodies, but no sign of Voldemort. And in the midst > of it all, the baby, Harry, is crying bloody murder, and on his > forehead there is a strange burn mark. oiboyz: It'd be cool if Snape were the first to get to Harry at Godric's Hollow. I hope we find out in Book 7 who it was. We know that Sirius and Hagrid argued about who'd take the baby, but DD already knew about it by that time so it's not likely they were the first ones on the scene. Julie: > He > can take an Unbreakable Vow to protect their son, Harry. > Dumbledore is stunned when Snape passionately offers to > do just this. oiboyz: It's quite possible, and as long as Snape has only been trying to get Harry expelled, not killed, he's within the letter of the vow. He saved Harry in PS/SS, and would've saved him in PoA if Sirius had really been evil. He showed up in Barty Crouch's (fake Moody's) foe glass when he came with DD and McGonagall to rescue Harry in GoF-- JKR made a big deal about that detail. OotP is a bit problematic; Snape did give Harry Occlumency lessons, but he was so horrible he made it hard for Harry to learn. But maybe that was just the best his embittered self could do. Then of course he saved Harry from the Cruciatus Curse, and perhaps from death, at the end of HBP, not to mention giving him one final DADA lesson before he fled. Pretty good record, all told. For someone who's hypothesized to be on Voldemort's side, he's been pretty assiduous about protecting Harry. You can count on Snape saving his hide, just like you can count on him being nasty to Harry afterwards. And think of how ballistic Snape goes every time he catches Harry wandering the castle at night. Is that just because Harry's an arrogant rule-breaker like his father, or is it because his risk-taking makes Snape's job harder? The best proof would be if Snape ever had Voldie and Harry in a room together... we'd see which way he'd point his wand... From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 07:06:38 2005 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:06:38 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135868 Del wrote: But the real problem, for me, is that JKR meant MUCH more than implication. She meant us to KNOW that Harry and Ginny love each other very much. The scene where Harry splits up with Ginny makes sense only if the readers care about the relationship, if they know about it, if they know how intense it is, how much of a sacrifice it is for Harry to propose to end the relationship, and how selfless it is for Ginny to let Harry go. Except that by the time I got there, I knew NOTHING of their relationship, I sure had NOT realised that it was supposed to be The Real Deal. So the scene fell horribly flat, and Harry *telling* of his deep love for Ginny came out as typically very bad writing. Not at all something I would expect from JKR. now Sarah: I agreed with almost everything you said in your last post, except for the part that Harry and Ginny loving each other very much. I my opinion, the melodramatic break-up was typical of teenage romances, especially someone's first romance. I remember when I was a teenager, everything was so melodramatic. I was SURE I was in love, when I now realize I was only in like, play acting at the real thing. In my opinion, this is the first time Harry has felt the way he has, so these feelings are going to be overwhelming, and seem to be much more than they really are. Harry and Ginny don't interact much, and we hear more about Harry fantasizing about Ginny (mainly teenage snog fantasies at that), but nothing about him wanting to spend time with her because of who she is. I felt that this was more like a first love, rather than a one true love/soulmate situation. I also felt that the break up scene was more of a saying good-bye to what could be, rather than what could have been. The years comment really only makes sense if Harry meant for the years into the future, because, really, he was obsessed with Cho. My main problem with the Harry/Ginny relationship is that I do feel that Rowling meant for their relationship to be a soulmates one, which just did not get translated onto page. Especially since we don't see their interactions, we only hear about them. Right now, it seems that Hermione and Ron are his soulmates, not Ginny. And I still haven't seen why Ginny is so ideal for Harry. Everything about her is all heresay. Everything we're told about her is from third sources, and not from actual interactions or "on-screen" time. I cared more about the Harry/Cho relationship than I did about the Harry/Ginny one. I still don't feel that Ginny is anything more special than Cho or Parvati, or any other pretty girl at Hogwarts. I feel like I've seen more interactions with Pansy and Draco than with Ginny and Harry. And Harry's feelings for Ginny seemed force, in my opinion. We didn't see Harry fall for Ginny over the summer at the Burrow. And he didn't have feelings, hidden or otherwise, for Ginny in OotP. So their relationship fell flat, emotionless. The only way I can make sense of their relationship is to speculate on it. (For example, my theory that Harry is pushing all of his strong emotions away, such as his grief for Sirius and his feelings over the prophecy, and his emotions towards Giny are the only emotions he allows himself to feel. This makes Ginny into a life-line of sorts; Harry is hanging onto his feelings for her, not onto her as a person.) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 07:08:41 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:08:41 -0000 Subject: Ran out of posts so a couple of replies packed into one. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135869 Lisa/SassyMomOfThree: The Sirius-admiration I've read about constantly since PoA has always boggled my mind -- since we learned about that particular incident. Sirius was no more than an orchestrator of an attempted murder, and meant to frame an allegedly dear friend for said attempted murder. While Sirius may have been on the "right" side of the fight against Voldemort, he was NOT a nice person and should've been prosecuted then and there, certainly not allowed to remain at school with his intended victim. Valky now (rubbing her red raw cheek): Ouch! :-S I have to defend that I think you have that entirely wrong Lisa. The prank couldn't fairly be called an attempted murder. I mean, look again. Sirius plays with that werewolf every month, it's his favourite past time. Does he think that a half competent wizard will survive an encounter with his friend Lupin.. *yes*, he *does*, he's *arrogant*, prideful, he thinks weekends with werewolves is something *everyone* should do to build character. I'm not saying he's right about all that, but I think it's pretty darn obvious he wasn't trying to murder Snape. Yeah yeah maybe it's a warped mind that thinks it, but it is *Sirius'* mind. IMHO he was just after the last laugh when Snape came back seething that Lupin was a werewolf and he could have been killed, Sirius just wanted to say, "What werewolf? Oh *That* werewolf... hahah, *he's* harmless, a pussy cat, we hang out together all the time... don't know what you were scared of... " Of course things aren't going to follow this *perfect plan*, just like the *perfect SK plan* wasn't as perfect as all that. But this flaw in his reasoning doesn't make him a murderer, does it? Wasn't that the main plot of the POA story. Saraquel says: More significantly, why was Sirius allowed to stay at Hogwarts and not expelled, what punishment did he recieve? If I was Snape, knowing that someone had deliberately set out to either kill me or at least make me into a werewolf for the rest of my life, I would be pretty pissed off if they were only given a detention. =============== Valky: Quite possibly because *all Sirius did was taunt* Snape. Sevvie went down the the Whomping Willow because *he wanted to*. Sirius didn't grapple hold him and drag him down there. Why is it so easy to jump from "push the knot in the tree" to attempted murder? I can't do it.. Snape gave Harry detention for almost accidentally killing Malfoy BTW. I think the point therein lies. > hg: > Smith's murder was a long enough time out of Hogwarts that he > wouldn't be trying to put a cup horcrux back in there, is what I > meant. I got the impression that he worked for B&B for about 5 > years, which would have him disappearing for about 20 years. That > part of the timeline has me confused, because Dumbledore says that > Riddle hasn't been seen for about 10 years when he shows up at the > headmaster's office, and Dumbledore doesn't become headmaster > until 1970. Seems like there's a missing 10 years somewhere. Jen: Oh dear, maths again! I'm wondering if this new information will change the Lexicon dating of when DD became headmaster? The 1970 number was based on when Lupin was probably born and bitten, and how Dumbledore becoming headmaster gave him the opportunity to go to Hogwarts. One has to be an error though, either the info in POA or the new info in HBP. Even if you stretch how long LV worked at B & B, it would still place Voldemort's request to teach around the early 60's, at the latest. Valky: Since JKR is a self confessed maths phobe I wouldn't placed a whole lot of stock on cnon timelines revealing much at all except that Jo ain't kidding about that.. LOL Nevertheless I like to make these things work anyhow, if only to give the Lexicon crew an extra set of wheels turning out here when new canon brings up a question like this.. ( a small gesture of appreciation for the work that they do for us :D) Ok so setting our central mark at the end of 1945 - Tom is approximately 17. A Handsome young man (per HBP Hepzibah chapter) could be wiggled right up to about 27 I'd say, it's only when you're pushing the 30 line that alluding to a very young appearance starts to become false. So let's excuse Tom for working at B&B's so long rather than getting stuck into his plan earlier by saying perhaps he was really hunting for the *right* Horcruxes and remained perfectly patient for them to come along... ten years later he's 27 and *finally* Hepzibah reveals that she has the Locket and the Cup so he takes them. It's 1955 approximately now, so about ten years later could be any which side of 1965 you like one or two years. This places Dumbledore as Hogwarts Headmaster possibly as little as three years before the Marauders arrive, so the Lexicon timeline will only need a little tweak to satisfy a fair estimate. Simply for something extra to do now, I'll suggest that Sacharissa Tugwood, who died in 1966, was the significant death enabling Voldemorts third Horcrux, as well as eliminating the competition for his new line of face blurring serpentine cosmetics.. ;D Juli: After dealing with certain specifics (perhaps including removing James and Lily's bodies), Dumbledore meets up with Snape at Spinner's End. (Hogwarts seems unlikely, as McGonagall doesn't seem to know the whereabouts of Harry Potter). Perhaps they perform some magic protection on Harry, or perhaps they don't. But it won't be enough, and Dumbledore must quickly decide how best to protect Harry, because he is sure Voldemort will return some day. Snape is no less certain. Dumbledore decides Harry will be safest with his mother's family, which has even more inpenetrable protection than Hogwarts thanks to Lily's sacrifice. When Harry is old enough to come to Hogwarts, they will have to figure out a way to keep him completely safe there. Now, Snape, who feels nothing for baby Harry, except perhaps irritation at his crying, is filled with remorse and anger. He can't undo what's been done. He can't bring back Lily, and now he can never repay his life debt to James. But, he thinks, perhaps in a moment of irrational emotion, maybe there is something else he can do, something if not equal, at least close enough. He can take an Unbreakable Vow to protect their son, Harry. I'm sure I missed some points that might negate this theory, so have at it ;-) Valky: It's a good theory but there are a few omissions, :( which will negate most of it unless you grapple you way around it. Sirius flew to GH after he couldn't find Peter he met with Hagrid there and lent his bike to Hagrid to transport Harry on. By all accounts SB and RH definitely met up at GH to collect Harry, so Snape probably didn't do this at all. The second matter, which might seem a little semantic to you, is the Unbreakable Vow, I seriously doubt that DD would consider a UV an ironclad reason for trust. LV might, Narcissa and Bella obviously did, but that's because they are Death Eaters They think Death rules and controls everybody. DD is different, he doesn't grant death that much power over his mind, not even nearly.. I would say that in DD's eyes Unbreakable Vow is a misnomer, because the promise maker can always *choose* to die. Karen (re: 10 Downing street and Emmelines murder): My conclusion is that this is an extremely busy area of London and she could have been doing anything! Sorry. Valky: Darn it, I was hoping for something to stand out really loudly, like a sore thumb, about the area, but apparently a dead end.. Oh well it was kind of fun while it lasted.. Thanks Karen Geoff: These are phrases which we, in the UK, would use to refer to an area close but not necessarily the next street. (Another one would be 'in your neck of the woods'). Following the Birmingham tornado last week, I actually remarked yesterday to a fellow church member, who is from South Birmingham, "That's pretty well in your back yard isn't it?" knowing that he had lived within /a mile or so/ of the affected area. Valky: Yeah I am pretty much aware of that figure of speech, I grew quite accustomed quite young to my family using "the other day" for last year, and "just down the road, around the corner" for anywhere you can walk to within an hour. Even so, I was curious to see if the area of the Government offices was going to give us any starkly obvious clues about what Emmeline was up to, and why Snape could claim tht information from him lead to her death. Geoff: If there had been a real life murder of a member of the public around the Downing Street area, it could easily have been in St.James' Park, which many people use in the course of the day. Valky: Yeah, but the canon definitely does not suggest that Emeline was going about the course of her day. Snape specifically says that Bella *could* suppose that *his information* lead to the death of Emmeline. Which would almost certainly suggest that she was believed to be doing something for Dumbledore.. But it doesn't matter if there's nothing in it.. theres plenty left to explore in HBP.. :D From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 07:26:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:26:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incidentg In-Reply-To: <14262fbd05073118594eb9d19d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa Williams wrote: > Saraquel says: More significantly, why was Sirius allowed to stay > at Hogwarts and not expelled, what punishment did he recieve? If I > was Snape, knowing that someone had deliberately set out to either > kill me or at least make me into a werewolf for the rest of my life, > I would be pretty pissed off if they were only given a detention. > =============== > Lisa replies: > > The Sirius-admiration I've read about constantly since PoA has > always boggled my mind -- since we learned about that particular > incident. Sirius was no more than an orchestrator of an attempted > murder, and meant to frame an allegedly dear friend for said > attempted murder. While Sirius may have been on the "right" side of > the fight against Voldemort, he was NOT a nice person and should've > been prosecuted then and there, certainly not allowed to remain at > school with his intended victim. > > Lisa/SassyMomOfThree bboyminn: First, we can't trust Snape's account of the incident because it is highly biased. In fact, even Sirius's account is biased. Second, we don't know what happened, so we can't be sure exactly what anyone's intent was. For example; Sirius could have said to Snape, don't go down to that tree, don't prode the knot with a stick, do not go inside the tunnel, and do not walk to the far end of the tunnel where you will surely find your death. What we have here is 'plausable deniability'. In other words, Sirius, regardless of his true intent, can honestly and legally say that he warned Snape NOT TO GO, and that it was not his fault Snape ignored his advise. A load of crap, true; but a valid legal load of crap. Of course, it would have been obvious to anyone that Sirius was goading Snape, that his statement for Snape to absolutely not go, did indeed create an absolute certainty that Snape would go. But you don't convict people on intent, you convict them on actions, and Sirius's actions, in the example I created, gave him 'plausable deniability'. Next, let's us not forget that Snape was out-of-bounds, in an area he clearly and unquestionably was not suppose to be in, doing something he clearly and unquestionably was not suppose to do. Snape is not without his own guilt here. He is not the poor innocent victim he makes himself out to be. I think the administration of Hogwarts, rather than make a public spectacle of the /apparent/ risk of one student's life by another, would be inclined to say 'detention for all' and 'don't mention this to anyone'. That doesn't seem far off the mark for the way Hogwarts operates. They handle their own problems. No one was actually hurt; Snape was OK. Sirius realized the seriousness of what he did. So, everything was OK. Best leave well enough alone. So- We don't know what happened. We don't know exactly what Sirius said to provoke Snape into entering the tunnel. We don't know to what extent people were punished for the act. We really don't know much at all. We do know that Snape DID enter the tunnel which by NO path of logic could he have believed was a wise or legal thing to do. We do know that James entered the tunnel and pulled Snape back; something I'm confident that Snape greatly protested until he was what he was facing. So, I think we need to proceed with caution. Calling Sirius a murderer or attempted murderer, and using similar harsh language is a little over the top, and we can not absolve Snape of all guilt in the affair either. Snape clearly broke rules put in place for his protection. He went into a tunnel that was SUBSTANTIALLY guarded and protected from entry. There is no way Snape can claim he is an 'innocent victim' here. So, I'm not absolving anyone of any guilt. Sirius made a young implusive and dangerous choice, and so did Snape. There is no indication that Sirius truly intended Snape to be killed. He was certainly short sighted, rash, and irresponsible, but we don't know for a fact that his intent was for Snape to be killed. Likely, he never thought that far ahead; impulsive headstrong teens are not know for being farsighted. So they are all quilty, and I'm sure they were all punished. Certainly not punished in the way Snape wanted, but punished none the less. Just trying to keep things in perspective. Steve/bboyminn From kjones at telus.net Mon Aug 1 07:32:27 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:32:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] =?windows-1252?Q?Dumbledore=92s_flawed_p?= =?windows-1252?Q?lan?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EDD00B.9030008@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 135872 eggplant107 wrote: > Please ignore my previous message, it was sent in error > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" Wrote > > > Dumbledore *sacrificing* his life > > is completely in character for me. > > But a pointless sacrifice was not in character and Dumbledore's death > accomplished nothing, in fact it was a disaster because now the most > powerful weapon the good guys had (with the possible exception of > Harry) is gone. If Dumbledore did have some secret grand master plan > cooked up with Snape I think it is very safe to say that things did > not go as expected. I do not believe that having a gang of Death > Eaters and a homicidal werewolf who likes to attack kids enter the > castle while Dumbledore was away was part of the plan. > > I also do not think letting Harry watch as Snape killed Dumbledore > without telling Harry it was what Dumbledore wanted could have > possibly been part of the plan. In book 5 Dumbledore blundered in not > telling Harry earlier about the prophecy and a good man died as a > result, I don't believe he would make the same mistake and keep Harry > in the dark again. He must have known if he saw his Headmaster > murdered Harry would spend the rest of his life if need be to hunt > down and kill the murderer, he might even make getting Snape a greater > priority than killing Voldemort. It seems to me it would have been > prudent to say to Harry "Oh by the way, Professor Snape is going to > kill me with an unforgivable curse but don't worry, I asked him to do > it". Dumbledore told Harry nothing of the sort so we can conclude that > Snape's actions were not part of the plan and thus Snape is just what > he seems to be, evil. > > Eggplant Kathy writes: While I am quite certain that Dumbledore did not plan his own death, I am equally certain that he was aware of the possibility of it. He would have covered all possible bases. Once he was nearly killed retrieving the first horcrux the possibilities of his being killed increased dramatically. As the damage to his hand happened during the summer before Hogwarts opened, he had lots of time to make arrangements particularly if he knew he was dying as a result of that damage. He knew that drinking the potion in the cave would probably kill him, but that is not a huge worry to a man who knows that he is already dying. I don't think that he planned for Deatheaters to enter the castle either, but he knew there was a plan afoot and he filled the castle with Order members as damage control. He also made sure to ask how they got in so that Harry could see to patching up the hole later. If the potion had killed him, it would have been a truly pointless death, which is why he wanted Snape brought to him immediately. If Draco killed him, it would also have done nothing to imptove the situation for the Order. Only by having Snape kill him could he place an Order member right beside Voldemort. Yes, he made the same mistake that he made last time in not telling Harry the whole story, but he really can't do that. The only reason that Voldemort is not in Harry's mind is because he is hiding from Harry what he is doing. He still has access to Harry's mind if he chooses to access it. Dumbledore has to be deliberately vague in what he tells Harry about Snape in spite of the fact that it is going to cause problems in the end. KJ From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Mon Aug 1 07:55:57 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:55:57 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135873 I hate to be repetitive, but I can't seem to help myself. I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the Harry/Ginny relationship. I guess one of the biggest reasons I don't have a problem with it is because it allows me to use my imagination. That, and the fact I'm a hopeless romantic says a lot about my feelings toward the story. The way I see it, if JK Rowling were to go into detail about Harry's relationship with Ginny, HBP would have been a lot longer than it was. I may be wrong, but I thought the mystery of the series is one of the biggest reasons why we all love it so much. We're able to speculate as much as we want and fill in the blanks until Rowling does it herself with a new installment. Come to think of it, the next and final book will probably answer all our questions. It will probably fill in those blanks we've all been wondering about. If it doesn't, then I guess that means the relationship between them wasn't that important to begin with, though I believe it is. *Rizza* From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 1 08:15:17 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:15:17 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA (long!) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050731230233.020d5d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > I don't think there actually is a well-defined model for time in Potterverse because I don't think Rowling will have considered that -- math and physics: her mind doesn't work that way). > > /Troels Forchhammer Hi everyone, you're all getting tooo deep! Forget the maths and physics etc. The time nonsense in book 3 doesn't work because JKR didn't think it through - it's a remarkably simple flaw and goes like this: Imagine you walk down the street, someone steps out of a crowd and shoots you. You die, or spend months in hospital. In JKR's world it's possible for someone to knock the hand of the assassin at the last moment, the bullet misses, you live... and you immediately wonder who shot at you. You go back in time, stand in the crowd.. the gun is raised and YOU knock the hand of the shooter.. And that is never going to work in a million re-writes. That's the underlying principle for the whole darn book, over and over again, whether its Hermione chucking seeds at Harry's head, Buckbeak being saved or whatever, but it's all best exemplified in the Death Eater scene. The only reason Harry survives is because... he saves himself!! No, no, a thousand times NO. JKR twisted the logic and most of her audience lapped it up. Dilemmas do occur with time travel, but some are just plain, simple, howlers. The third book is full of them because it wasn't planned out properly and the time travel was a shallow plot device of utter convenience. Try The Guardian Of Time by CC Chambers for one that wallows in trying to work out all the dilemmas, and has a laugh with all the problems. I loved that, and its entirely responsible for me getting so irritated with the POA. Up until I got immersed in the mad world of Aunt Agatha and Bob, the third book was my favourite. Sometimes things can be very simple. Sandra From literature_Caro at web.de Mon Aug 1 08:32:21 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:32:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: <1ad.3c037b0a.301f0fb7@aol.com> References: <1ad.3c037b0a.301f0fb7@aol.com> Message-ID: <1423616214.20050801103221@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 135875 > Julie again: > Harry didn't hear rush of Buckbeak's wings until after he felt the > white-hot whiplike sensation hit him across the face, and was > slammed against the ground and saw spots in front of his eyes. > No, I think Snape hit him with something, basically a resounding > slap across the face. Which, given what Snape is certainly > capable of, and his pain/rage at Harry's coward accusation, is > pretty mild indeed. One might even say inexcusably lame, if > Snape is supposed to be ESE. > Julie Caro: Well I think a burning house makes a lot of noise so that Buckbeak's wings just were too quiet. And on the other Hand Harry was completely into chasing Snape. I don't know how much he was realising other things that were going on on the grounds except for they were bright shining or noisy. So it still might be Buckbeak. So I agree with post number 135791 by Marianne, sorry. Caro From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 08:38:34 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:38:34 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135876 > Eggplant: >It seems to me it would have been > prudent to say to Harry "Oh by the way, Professor Snape is going to > kill me with an unforgivable curse but don't worry, I asked him to do > it". And what do you think Harry would say to that? "OK, Professor, just as long as it is for the Greater Good and helps me to survive?" a_svirn From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Mon Aug 1 08:47:13 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:47:13 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mochajava13" wrote: Harry and Ginny > don't interact much, and we hear more about Harry fantasizing about > Ginny (mainly teenage snog fantasies at that), but nothing about him > wanting to spend time with her because of who she is. I felt that > this was more like a first love, rather than a one true > love/soulmate situation. I also felt that the break up scene was > more of a saying good-bye to what could be, rather than what could > have been. The years comment really only makes sense if Harry meant > for the years into the future, because, really, he was obsessed with > Cho. Now me" Harry said if only he could have asked her 'sooner', which means they could have had years together starting from the past to the present, not starting in the present into the future. Harry was never obssessed with Cho, he was infatuated by her. His feelings for Cho were based mostly on her looks, there was no depth to their relationship. Sarah: > And I still haven't seen why Ginny is so ideal for Harry. Everything > about her is all heresay. Me: How about the fact she stood by him, when she basically didn't have to? She fought side by side with him at the MoM. She stands up for him to one of his best friends. Has cared about him for six years and is willing to let him go when need be whithtout a moment's hesitation. Sure her feelings for him maay have started out as being shallow, since she didn't know him at all. But, she grew to know him, having spent more time with him (offscreen or not) than anyone other than Ron and Hermione. Remember all the summers and Christmas braks he's spent at the Burrow? In HBP Harry spends most of his time during the summer with Ron, Hermione and Ginny at the Burrow, giving him plenty of opportunity to know Ginny better. >And Harry's feelings for Ginny > seemed force, in my opinion. We didn't see Harry fall for Ginny > over the summer at the Burrow. And he didn't have feelings, hidden > or otherwise, for Ginny in OotP. So their relationship fell flat, > emotionless. Me: Forced how? Is it unnatural to spend years around someone and not realize what xactly they mean to you until i's either too late or until something in your brain or heart just pops? And seeing as Harry didn't realize his feelings for Ginny until he got to Hogwarts, it would've been pretty difficult for us to see him fall for her at the Burrow. Sarah: The only way I can make sense of their relationship is > to speculate on it. (For example, my theory that Harry is pushing > all of his strong emotions away, such as his grief for Sirius and > his feelings over the prophecy, and his emotions towards Giny are > the only emotions he allows himself to feel. This makes Ginny into > a life-line of sorts; Harry is hanging onto his feelings for her, > not onto her as a person.) Me: There's nothing wrong with speculating. I don't think any of us will argue with the fact that Harry is fighting against dealing with Sirius's death. He was also fighting his feelings for Ginny? Why? Because she's Ron's sister and Harry thought Ron would not approve. Am I wrong in saying Ron is one of the few people who know Harry very well? Now tell me- if Ron thought for a second that Harry's feelings for his sister weren't genuine, wouldn't he be upset about their relationship? You see how he reacted towards Ginny and Dean, why wouldn't he react the same way towards Harry and Ginny? We've all seen how protective Ron is of his sister, and how he has no problem telling off Harry when he thinks he's wrong, so I doubt he'd let their ship go any further if he didn't think it was for real. Plus, if Ginny is good enough for Harry, why shouldn't she be good enough for us? *Rizza* From azriona at juno.com Mon Aug 1 09:46:16 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:46:16 -0000 Subject: Properties of an Metamorphmagus (was Re: Lupin's Character Development) In-Reply-To: <14262fbd05073119253f852b90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135878 > Lisa said: > What better partner for Lupin? She [Tonks] can > transform herself into something that enables her to protect herself > (and Lupin, in a way) should Lupin not have access to his wolfsbane > potion! I don't know that Tonks can actually do that. She's a Metamorphmagus, not an Animagus. She can only change her appearance, not her genetic makeup. And because she can only turn from one person to another, she wouldn't actually be safe from a werewolf at the full moon. --azriona From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 1 09:51:19 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:51:19 -0400 Subject: Lestrange and Avery in the Slug Club Message-ID: <006201c5967e$91fe8770$59c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135879 Mandy said: >>So I was wondering if this Lestrange and Avery were the fathers of the DEs in OOtP. I can't see how this has any relevance to anything :o) CathyD now: On first reading I initially thought it was the current Lestrange and Avery. Of course, on closer inspection I do believe that it is the fathers of the ones we currently know. Rabastan, Rudolphus, and ? Avery as well as Bellatrix Black, were in school at the same time (possibly not same grade) as Snape. The reference to Lestrange and Avery in HBP has to be their fathers. It shows it stays in the family (no hope for Draco?). DE involvement is kind of like a hereditary disease! LOL (just kidding) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 1 09:52:45 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:52:45 -0400 Subject: SHIP: Re: Ginny VS Harry Message-ID: <006601c5967e$c4aee890$59c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135880 Hickengruendler said: >>Therefore the argument that the break-up had to be done, and that Harry and Ginny behaved really maturely doesn't convince me at all, since I see no reason for them to split. CathyD now: I've been staying right out of the SHIPs to this point but I have to totally agree with you. The fact that Harry and Ginny have 'split up' doesn't negate their feelings. Harry still loves Ginny (yes, I believe he truly does) and as you said, which I snipped, LV used Ginny before they were an item, nothing will stop him from using her now if he thinks it will work. She's in no more danger away from Harry than she is at his side. I believe, or, I suppose I am hoping, that Harry will see Ginny in that gold dress at Bill and Fleur's wedding, and they'll fall into each other's arms, he'll realize the split up won't save her and she'll join Hermione and Ron in helping Harry fight the good fight. I don't believe for a moment that Ginny is not going to be a part of this fight. We've been led to believe that she is a powerful witch - that Bat Bogey Hex could come in handy - and as we really haven't seen that much of her power, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Ginny. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 1 10:27:58 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 06:27:58 -0400 Subject: How Inclusive is the Prophecy? Message-ID: <008001c59683$b220e6b0$59c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135881 AA said: >> So when the two of them are in the cave, why does DD insist that his own life is less valuable than Harry's? Harry doesn't _have_ to be the one to destroy LV, if both Harry and DD choose to ignore the prophecy. DD could be the one to engage LV directly, while Harry merely helped in the treasure hunt for the horcruxes. What do you think? CathyD now: We'll I've said all along (since OotP) that it doesn't *have* to be Harry. Nobody listens though! ;) And since it is JKR's book after all, she will make it who she feels it 'has' to be. At this point, I'm even more convinced it doesn't have to be Harry who kills LV . DD makes it clear that at this point, Harry *has* to kill LV because LV killed Harry's parents, Sirius, Cedric and now, DD. There are, however, lots of other people with as big a grudge to bear against LV. Susan Bones' Uncle Edgar and his whole family was murdered, then her Aunt Amelia. Wouldn't she be just as angry as Harry? Mr. Weasley has had his daughter possessed by Riddle, attacked himself by LV's snake, had Ron poisioned, now has Bill attacked by Greyback and Molly's two brothers murdered from the first go round. Shouldn't he be just as angry? Hannah Abbott whose mother was just murdered. The Montgomery sisters whose brother was just murdered. Amos Diggory who lost his son? Neville, who in effect, has lost his parents. Why would Harry be the only one to seek revenge? I just don't get it. Yes, Harry could 'walk away' but LV will not because he feels threatened by this enemy he created and will continue to hunt him down. I think he's 'created' a lot more enemies than Harry. One of them may well be Severus Snape (but that's another whole theory). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joj at rochester.rr.com Mon Aug 1 11:18:51 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:18:51 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135882 wrote: > I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the > Harry/Ginny relationship. I guess one of the biggest reasons I don't > have a problem with it is because it allows me to use my > imagination. That, and the fact I'm a hopeless romantic says a lot > about my feelings toward the story. The way I see it, if JK Rowling > were to go into detail about Harry's relationship with Ginny, HBP > would have been a lot longer than it was. I may be wrong, but I > thought the mystery of the series is one of the biggest reasons why > we all love it so much. We're able to speculate as much as we want > and fill in the blanks until Rowling does it herself with a new > installment. Joj writes: I see it as poor writing. Obviously this isn't a romance novel, and even if she gave us a lot of detail, much would be left to the imagination. But the whole thing? We are to imagine Ginny and Hermione's interactions about Harry, and Ginny never getting over Harry, even while with other people? That's to be expected. That's not from Harry's point of veiw. We are to imagine Ginny and Harry getting closer over the summer, and her working her way into his subconscious? I think we could have been shown a little bit of that. One small conversation between the two of them. We are to imagine Harry and Ginny's entire relationship after the first kiss? Huh? We got a more meaningful scene between Harry and Luna at the end of OotP than we got between Harry and Ginny in this book. I'm sorry if I just can't imagine this perfect romance between Harry and Ginny. I think it's a little much for Jo to ask us to. It's her job, not ours. I just think she left too much in her head, and didn't put enough on the page (of Harry and Ginny's romance and of Ginny's growth into the perfect woman and Harry's equal). > Come to think of it, the next and final book will probably answer > all our questions. It will probably fill in those blanks we've all > been wondering about. If it doesn't, then I guess that means the > relationship between them wasn't that important to begin with, > though I believe it is. I think Jo seriously underestimates her fans if she thinks she'll answer all our questions in the last book, about H/G or anything else. Joj From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 11:27:37 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:27:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135883 Grindieloe, Julie, please please *please* don't get upset, but this list is exactly what I said (in my "precision" post) I didn't want. It's all either about the foreshadowing, or the pre-romance tension buildup, when what I was asking for was clues as to the *romance* itself, once it's started. What I am trying to evaluate is not whether Harry/Ginny makes sense. Pre-HBP, I was fairly convinced that JKR was indeed headed to a H/G ship, and I was fine with that. So there's no need to point me to all the foreshadowing. What I *am* trying to understand and evaluate is the relationship itself. I am trying to see what kind of relationship they have, *once they get together*. So what I am asking for is a list of clues *post-H/G kiss* in HBP. Other than that, let me reply to a couple of points that were made. Grindieloe wrote: "15. Her need to move from boyfriend to boyfriend, as both Ron and the twins dislike, stems from her inability to have the man she really wants - Harry." Del replies: Hum, Ginny had a grand total of 2 boyfriends in a year-and-a-half. I don't call that "moving from boyfriend to boyfriend". I personally don't think it is healthy for 14 or 15-year-old kids to be in a committed relationship for too long. So Ginny's relationships lasting a few months seems perfectly healthy and normal to me. She would have to change boyfriend every week or so for me to agree that she's moving from bf to bf. Grindieloe wrote: "17. Eyeball messages... they are meaningful. Harry mentions a few times that their eyes met and that there was immediate understanding. It's wonderful to have that connection to someone and to know someone that well. " Del replies: That's a typical *friendship* sign. Harry has the same kind of connection with both Ron and Hermione, and he's got it with Ginny because they've been *friends* for so long. Grindieloe wrote: "18. I see this as a typical "first deep" teenage relationship. I remember it well... :) Physical AND emotional..." Del replies: Well, that's my problem, see. WHERE do you get your hints about the romantic relationship between Harry and Ginny? I'm not asking about their *frienship*, I'm asking about their *romantic relationship*, once they are together. Can you give me canon examples of Ginny being such a good *girlfriend* to Harry, or vice versa, *not* examples of their friendship? Grindieloe wrote: "There it is... my long list of reasons why I have always been a H/G shipper. I totally respect those that have other shipping ideas and theories, but for me, H/G makes the most sense and always has." Del replies: My question was not about the ship in itself. It was about the *romance*. I totally agree that JKR heavily foreshadowed H/G. What I am asking for is "show me where it says that the *romance* between Harry and Ginny is such a great thing". Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 11:46:19 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:46:19 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135884 Rizza wrote: "I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the Harry/Ginny relationship. I guess one of the biggest reasons I don't have a problem with it is because it allows me to use my imagination." Del replies: And that's precisely why I have a problem with it: because it is left entirely to our imagination. But our imagination is not necessarily in line with JKR's intention. For example, what in HBP prevents me from imagining an abusive relationship between those two? What prevents me from imagining that Ginny is simply secretly feeding Love Potion to Harry? What prevents me from imagining that Ginny was hugely disappointed with what a romance with Harry really looks like, after dreaming of it for so many years, that she was actually relieved when Harry broke up with her, and that this is the true reason she let him go so easily? Those who want to imagine a perfectly happy H/G romance can. But those who either don't want to, can't, or don't care to, have no reason to agree that this romance is so beautiful. There is no canon either way, so nobody's right, and nobody's wrong. The romance between Harry and Ginny might as well not exist, it would be better than this undefined unknown. Those books are JKR's books. It is HER job to tell us what happens in them. If I want to invent my own version of HP, I'll start writing fanfiction. If I want to see how other fans view the H/G romance, I'll start reading fanfiction. But when I buy the genuine thing (with very real money too), I want the genuine version of the author. So when JKR writes that there's a romance going on between her hero and the girl she always destined for him, I want HER to tell me what's going on. It's HER JOB. Del From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 11:53:41 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:53:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135885 > > Del replies: > My question was not about the ship in itself. It was about the > *romance*. I totally agree that JKR heavily foreshadowed H/G. What I > am asking for is "show me where it says that the *romance* between > Harry and Ginny is such a great thing". Amiable Dorsai: It's not there. I've never been a big shipper of any sort. I would probably have been happy with with Harry/Ginny, Harry/Hermione or Harry/Luna, but I confess that the "romance" between Harry and Ginny in HBP left me pretty unsatisfied. JKR is a better writer than that. I can only conclude that we haven't seen it yet--that the sudden infatuation and quick blowout in HBP was only the warmup for the main event in book 7: "Harry Potter and the Girl Who Refused to Go Quietly". Amiable Dorsai From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 11:57:33 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:57:33 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135886 > > Joj writes: > I see it as poor writing. Obviously this isn't a romance novel, and > even if she gave us a lot of detail, much would be left to the > imagination. But the whole thing? > > We are to imagine Ginny and Hermione's interactions about Harry, and > Ginny never getting over Harry, even while with other people? That's > to be expected. That's not from Harry's point of veiw. We are to > imagine Ginny and Harry getting closer over the summer, and her > working her way into his subconscious? I think we could have been > shown a little bit of that. One small conversation between the two > of them. We are to imagine Harry and Ginny's entire relationship > after the first kiss? Huh? We got a more meaningful scene between > Harry and Luna at the end of OotP than we got between Harry and Ginny > in this book. > > I'm sorry if I just can't imagine this perfect romance between Harry > and Ginny. I think it's a little much for Jo to ask us to. It's her > job, not ours. I just think she left too much in her head, and > didn't put enough on the page (of Harry and Ginny's romance and of > Ginny's growth into the perfect woman and Harry's equal). > I think Jo seriously underestimates her fans if she thinks she'll > answer all our questions in the last book, about H/G or anything else. > > Joj One of the classic rules writers must learn is the concept, "show, don't tell." From the website of Robert J. Sawyer: "First, what's the difference between the two? Well, "telling" is the reliance on simple exposition: Mary was an old woman. "Showing," on the other hand, is the use of evocative description: Mary moved slowly across the room, her hunched form supported by a polished wooden cane gripped in a gnarled, swollen-jointed hand that was covered by translucent, liver-spotted skin." http://www.sfwriter.com/ow04.htm Since JKR certainly knows how to write "show", I would agree with a few other posters that the Harry/Ginny scenes were probably heavily edited--to the point of well, disappointment. pg. 534 AE HBP "The creature in his chest roaring in triumph, he grinned down at Ginny and gestured wordlessly out of the portrait hole. A long walk in the grounds seemed indicated, during which--if they had time-- they might discuss the match." So what did they talk about on their long walk? It does seem in some ways, the reader is "cheated" out of this information. I mean, this is the FIRST conversation that Harry and Ginny have to discuss their feelings to one another, or maybe we are just supposed to assume it was a big make out session (jk). So, I can certainly understand the feelings some folks have about being disappointed, however, if there was some severe editing, it only reinforces the fact that Harry's relationships will not be key in his success or failure to defeat Voldemort. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 1 12:23:35 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:23:35 -0000 Subject: Shove a Bezor was Re: many replies to many posts from many people, ALL SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince > > I can think of only two reasons for writing 'just shove a bezoar down > their throat' in the antidote section. Once is that Snape's tutor > wrote it down for Snape to use in class or in life, and the other is > that the book magically wrote it down for Harry to use in class. I > mean, it makes no sense to me that Snape would write that down for his > own use -- it is the sort of thing that one can REMEMBER, not like the > detailed corrections to recipes. I think it is just an prize example of Snape's sarcastic nature. He's read a long and complicated theory explaining how to go about extracting the individual componants of a blended poison, how to calculate what added ingredient to include to produce an antedote, to say nothing of having to know the antedotes for the individual componants of said poison. Then no doubt a long and conveluted process to actually make the antedote. I can just hear Snape saying "Fine. Or you *could* just shove a bezoar down their throat." Karen From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 12:45:01 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:45:01 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135889 Jen: It seems like Dumbledore is saying LV's appearance > changed due to his quest for immortality which we now know is the > Horcruxes. So, we first see a glint of his red eyes when he's > surveying the treasures at Hepzibah's house. To me that would mean > he's already learned how to make Horcruxes, and there's some > evidence that the diary and ring are already hidden. But you could > also argue it was simply the murders subtly changing his appearance > and that the Horcrux making took place during the next ten years. > Because we do see a very drastic change in LV's appearance when he > requests the job at Hogwarts. hg: Without including it in my original sequence of events (134655) I was using his physical changes as evidence that he had already made horcruxes. We know he made the diary when he was 16. He turned 17 on Dec 31, 1943 or Jan 1, 1944. The basilisk killed Myrtle June 13, 1943. In the Slughorn scene, he's wearing the ring and his eyes are normal -- and he's a prefect, not head boy. This places the Slughorn scene between Sept 1, 1943 and Tom's 17th birthday. (By the way, note the crystallized pineapple, in a box tied w/ a ribbon: Tom didn't have any money, but he gave it to Slughorn as a gift. So the scene doesn't necessarily have to be after the mid-October Hogsmeade visit. Tom knows about the passage to Honeydukes: when Harry et al are in Honeydukes they bump into Slughorn buying crystallized pineapple.) I think he most definitely had divided his soul at least twice in those 4 months at the end of 1943. The diary isn't wearing the ring and the diary is stated about 10,000 times to be 16 year old Tom. In Hepzibah's house, his hair is longer, he has a sunken appearance, and there's the matter of the glowing red eyes, all confirming even more he'd already done it. When he shows up in Dumbledore's office (1970?) he has changed more again, but he doesn't look as bad as he does when he comes out of the cauldron "his old self," as he says. I think he had made 4 or 5 when he went to Dumbledore's office, and the remaining 2 or 1 were made before/when baby Harry blew him up. > > hg: > > Oh, yes, we were referring to the same thing, then. But the > > special services award is a plaque. > > Jen: I'm thoroughly confused now, and had to back-up and research > where the TR cup came from. Seems like people are suspecting the cup > on JKR's website is a clue? That Tom won a cup as well as the > plaque, and people suspect he traded the original cup for the > Hufflepuff cup? Still, I'd rather have it in the books than just on > the website. hg: Maybe what other people are considering is his Award for Magical Merit, which I believe he received in his 7th year, and I'd consider it based on the evidence that Ron polished that plaque repeatedly and is still walking and talking. The Special Services Award to the school is definitely a plaque. Jen: > Is it reasonable he learned to make the Horcruxes immediately after > that conversation with Slughorn? I'm starting to think not. Where > would he find out while still at Hogwarts? Did he learn everything > he needed to know that summer right after the murders? If so, it > must not be terribly complex. Or he had a mentor. hg: If he can get out into Hogsmeade any time he wants, he certainly has a path to outside information, and we know the info he wanted on how to make a Horcrux wasn't available inside Hogwarts. > Jen: I tend to take DD's words at face value here, that he believes > Riddle wanted the job at Hogwarts to find a treasure from one of the > other founders (chap. 23 p. 505, US). But I don't think it would be > something Riddle stole as a student and hid at Hogwarts (although I > guess the COS would make an *excellent* hiding place since no one > else can open it!). More likely he wanted to search the castle for a new item and was turned away. hg: I wonder if he found something satisfactory that made him quit asking, then. I don't know about Ravenclaw, but after reviewing some JK interviews yesterday, I'm wondering if Harry is a descendant of Godric Griffindor, through James? It would explain why Lily didn't "have to die," and might provide a layer of motive for Voldemort to want to kill Harry. I'm torn on this, because I've also been wondering if Dumbledore is related to GG, and I don't think it can be both Dumbledore and Harry related to GG. Might I add that the eyes are the window to the soul? A little nagging thought, just for you, Jen. hg. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 12:46:56 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incidentg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801124657.41783.qmail@web32710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135890 Steve wrote: So, I'm not absolving anyone of any guilt. Sirius made a young implusive and dangerous choice, and so did Snape. There is no indication that Sirius truly intended Snape to be killed. He was certainly short sighted, rash, and irresponsible, but we don't know for a fact that his intent was for Snape to be killed. Likely, he never thought that far ahead; impulsive headstrong teens are not know for being farsighted. So they are all quilty, and I'm sure they were all punished. Certainly not punished in the way Snape wanted, but punished none the less. Just trying to keep things in perspective. Lynn: Perspective? We have to keep things in perspective? Well, that takes all the fun out of it LOL I agree with all you said Steve with an addition. We know that Madame Pomfrey takes Lupin over. For Snape to know where/wonder why Lupin goes there, he had to have seen Madam Pomfrey and know that whatever was happening was sanctioned by the administration. Let's face it, Snape isn't stupid and he had to have had a pretty good idea that whatever was happening, if he hadn't figured it out already, had to be very serious for Madam Pomfrey to take Lupin secretly away from the castle. Sirius tells us that Snape kept trying to get the Maurauders expelled. My impression is that Snape probably had a good idea what was happening to Lupin and just wanted proof. After all, it is a bit of a coincidence that a shack becomes haunted - once a month - a new tree is planted that hits those who come near it and now Madam Pomfrey is escorting a student through that tree every month. Hmmmm, for someone like Snape, intent on being nosy, it's a pretty good bet he had some idea of what was going on. After all, we know from the pensieve scene that he had overheard the Mauraders talking about Lupin being a werewolf. I can see a scenario of Snape taunting Sirius that once he had proof Lupin was a werewolf that he'd destroy the Maurauders and Sirius replying that if Snape really wanted proof, here's how he can get through the Whomping Willow. As stated, neither is absolved from guilt, both bear responsibility. Bottom line for me is that noone put a wand to Snape's head and forced him to break the rules and put himself in danger. As Dumbledore mutters to the Bertha in the Pensieve "But why did you follow him." --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 12:32:04 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:32:04 -0000 Subject: Horcrux from Grindelwald? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > aussie: > > Dang that 1945 date for the Dark Wizard Grindelwald being "defeated" > and Tom Riddle leaving Hogwarts after already making a couple of > Horcruxes at least. > > After getting 2 of Hepzibah Smith's treasures, Riddle disappeared > overseas and reappeared as Lord Voldemort - no more mention of > Riddle. > > Proposal: Just as baby Harry "defeated" LV making him disappeared to > the Black Forest, Germany, Grindelwald may have sought solitude to > regain his strength. > > Instead of a book smart, but experience poor, wizard like Quirrel > meeting him, Grindelwald met Riddle. Tom then could have furthered > his way along the Dark path using Grindalwald, his new mentor, as > the next victim to create a Horcrux. > > * According to DD's Choclate card, Dumbledore "defeated", not > killed, the Dark Wizard Grindelwald. > * Grindelwald was a key question in JKR's recent interview. She said > he is now dead - although, DD may not have been the one to finish > him off. > * That dang date of 1945 still makes me suspicious of hidden secrets. > * If Riddle went overseas and had significant experiences to change > him into LV, then that would suggest a hiding place overseas. > > We may get to see some of the locations we've heard of in previous > books: > - Drumstrang: a Dark Arts School in Bulgaria > - Charlie's Dragon sanctuary in Romania > - Beaubatons school? - Nah, not attractive enough for Dark Wizards. > > To refresh your memory, when talking of Grindelwald in the interview: > > MA: You've gone very quiet. > [All laugh; JKR maniacally.] > MA: We like when you get very quiet, it means ? > ES: You're clearly hiding something. > > -aussie- In regard as to where Harry's adventures to find the Horcruxes might take him, I've always wondered about the Weasley's trip to Eygpt. In Eygptian mythology, "Horus" was the son of Ra, the sun god, and Horus avenged his father's death (Ra was murderd by his brother, Set) which typically is interpreted as the triumph of good over evil. Bill, being a top-notch curse breaker, may have learned a thing or two there which might come in handy for Harry. Ron was certainly impressed by the ancient magic. I'm doubt there's a horcrux in Eygpt, but I think the trio will either travel there to learn something or the information Bill learned there will be very handy in destroying a Horcrux that might reside in a living being (Nagini, Harry. The Egyptians believed in the separation of the soul from the body and had methods of preserving the soul in inanimate objects, animals, etc (wished I'd paid more attention in World History!). From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 1 12:52:46 2005 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:52:46 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135892 Is Snape evil? I don't think so. Apart from it being an awful letdown, it would also mean that JKR is a sloppy writer (- why doesn't Snape kill/harm more people than Dumbledore, for starters? Why doesn't he tie a bow around Harry and carry him as a special present to his Dark Master, for seconds? Why didn't he kill Dumbledore before?...) Is Snape good? Well, he has just cast an Unforgivable Curse, and we all know what that does to your soul, so far from me to go and claim he's all sweet and nice and so misunderstood. But maybe he needn't be either of those. Here is my theory for Snape's behaviour in HBP, in a long (but hopefully not dry) essay with plenty of canon corroboration :-). A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Hogwarts ______________________________________________ I was amazed at the first two chapters of Half-Blood Prince: they must have a very special meaning if JKR felt it necessary to include no less than TWO chapters that are not from Harry's point of view. She has done this only once before, in Goblet of Fire, where her integrity as a storyteller required her to reveal to her readers that Voldemort, whose present-day self we had last seen in his vaporous form in Philosopher's Stone, was no longer a vapour. She could not spring the graveyard scene on us without warning and have Foetus!Mort appear out of the blue with Wormtail. There was vital information she had to impart to us, but to which Harry was not privy. It is therefore worth taking an extra close look at what is to my mind one of the most fascinating parts of the whole book: the beginning. "The Other Minister" feels, to me at least, like the introduction to the entirety of books Six and Seven (? two books which, as JKR has announced, are really the halves of one mammoth-sized tome). The situation with Voldemort has now become so serious that even the Muggles cannot ignore it, and the end of a period of relative innocence is symbolised by the replacement of the slightly ridiculous figure of Cornelius Fudge, the man in the lime-green bowler hat, by the hard-liner Rufus Scrimgeour, whom Harry significantly compares with Barty Crouch Sr. The second chapter, then, is the real beginning of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince and includes revelations of the kind we had in GoF's Frank Bryce chapter. It is here that the clues to the book's plot will be found. "Spinner's End" shows us Snape in his natural surroundings, in an ancestral home far removed from the one fandom has often liked to allot to him. But it fits perfectly. It is also, in my opinion, the clue to much of what is to come. *** Part the First: Sevvie and Cissy _________________________________ Severus Snape, Death Eater and Order member, Slytherin and half- blood, receives a visit from Narcissa Malfoy, wife of one and mother of another Death Eater. She is accompanied by her sister Bellatrix, who considers herself the Dark Lord's most faithful minion. Narcissa ? so beautiful, so blonde and so alone ? is desperate. Her husband Lucius is in prison and her sixteen-year-old son Draco, the apple of her eye, has been assigned a most dangerous task which she does not think he can possibly carry out: killing Albus Dumbledore, the only wizard whose magical power equals Lord Voldemort's. The Dark Lord, she guesses, doesn't believe in Draco's success either but has given him the job with the almost sole purpose of killing the boy when he fails to deliver. What is Narcissa to do? Lucius is in prison and out of favour; he cannot protect their son with his own hands and his name does not mean much anymore. But another Death Eater has taken his place in the Dark Lord's good graces ? another Death Eater with whom Narcissa is also on first name terms: the slippery Severus Snape. Snape is a member of Dumbledore's staff and a wizard of some talent; he would be perfect both to watch over Draco and, if necessary, carry out the dirty deed himself. In order to save her son, Narcissa will have to plead with Snape ? he really is the only one who can help her. Severus Snape is a very cautious man. He has to be, if he values his own life. Both Albus Dumbledore and Lord Voldemort believe to have him on their side as a spy so that, in order to keep his balance between the two of them and maintain credibility, Snape has to watch his words and actions at all times and keep both satisfied. When Narcissa arrives in Spinner's End, Snape's position as a servant of two masters is the following: he has Albus Dumbledore's complete trust; and the Dark Lord has welcomed him back into the fold. Voldemort, however, had referred to him in GoF's Graveyard Scene as "the one who has left me forever; he will be killed, of course" (confirmed by JKR in an interview as referring to Snape) ? which makes you wonder just how welcoming the Dark Lord really was when Snape turned up on his doorstep; it was probably not nearly as cosy as Snape makes it out to be in front of Bellatrix. Voldemort, we know, isn't quite as nice to his employees as Dumbledore, and it is highly likely that Snape is still skating on thin ice with him. He has, after all, only risen in rank because Lucius Malfoy's last enterprise was a complete and utter fiasco and several of his trusted men have been rounded up as a result as well. If Voldemort really feels he can rely on Snape, would he send Peter Pettigrew, the Rat Who Listens At Doors, to Spinner's End? Snape may well say Wormtail is there to assist him; the truth is that he is being watched in his own house. Snape, Bellatrix is eager to point out, has a reputation for public non-committal. We have seen that in the Order; apparently he does the same among the Death Eaters. It is, frankly, the sensible way to act for a spy; but it does mean that others find it difficult to trust him. When Narcissa comes to appeal to him for her son's protection, Snape tries to slither out of the deep by his stock answer: "I will try." It is, as Bellatrix says, an empty promise, and Narcissa wants more. If Snape really means to help, will he not consent to making an Unbreakable Vow? The Unbreakable Vow is the kind of narrative device that alerts the reader of fairy tales to impending doom. Remember Beauty and the Beast, Rumpelstiltkin and many other stories, in which a man or woman is saved from a disaster in return for an indefinite reward along the lines of, "Give me the first thing you see when you come home." Those people always expect the `first thing' to be their dog or something they are prepared to part with, but it invariably turns out to be their own child or someone/something so precious that they would gladly have forsaken the offered help in the first place rather than giving this precious thing or person up as payment. (King Arthur, to name another example, has the uncanny habit of promising helpers "anything you ask", expecting everybody to ask for *money*. Duh.) The Unbreakable Vow Narcissa asks Snape to make is a spell that kills the `bondee' when they break their promise. A clever and cautious man like Snape should (and, one expects, *does*) realise the finality and great danger of such a move. The sensible answer to Narcissa's request would be "no". But Snape says yes. To agree to anything like an Unbreakable Vow seems incredibly na?ve ? there is bound to be a Nagini-sized snake in the grass. And hey presto, there certainly is. Narcissa cleverly forces a third clause on Snape: to carry out the mission in case Draco fails. And let's be honest: if she hadn't included that, what would have been the ultimate good of the protection Snape promised? Failure of the mission means death for Draco in any case. I have to admit that it is perhaps a bit unfair calling Snape na?ve. I don't think he is. It is just that he has allowed himself to be seduced by the admittedly formidable combined forces of the Black sisters, which wouldn't have worked with *me* - I'm impervious to female charm :o). Snape and Bellatrix obviously dislike each other, and yet there is a seduction going on: she coaxes him into making a mistake. Bella doesn't trust Snape, and they both know that his claims on the Dark Lord's trust are in part poker-faced bluff. Bellatrix may have lost some of her former standing after the Department of Mysteries debacle, but one imagines that her (fanatically loyal) voice still counts for something with Voldemort, and as an adversary she is not to be underestimated. Convincing her of his loyalty is not a simple luxury for Snape. Making a solemn magical vow to help bring Draco's murder mission to a successful end will certainly do much to quell her doubts and is a serious argument in favour of the ritual. However, the most compelling pressure issues not from Bella, but from her sister, whose tears flow freely, who clutches at Snape's robes, holds his hands and throws herself at his feet. She strokes his ego: "you could do it," she says, "you are the Dark Lord's favourite", "you are Draco's favourite teacher", "/you/ would succeed". All pretty transparent to this sceptical observer ? but Narcissa has touched a nerve. Consider who she is, where she is and with whom she is pleading. Narcissa Black Malfoy, an elegant, beautiful and upper-class pure-blood has alighted on a "Muggle dunghill" to humbly beg the help of the ugly, frustrated and unpopular son of a spinner ? a half-blood wizard who craves recognition, whose only pathetic claim to nobility lies in the sound of his mother's name, who has painstakingly eradicated any sign of his origins in his diction and dress but somehow never found the acceptance and admiration he considers his due. If Narcissa is used to calling him Severus, it is probably because she has never needed to accord him the privilege of being addressed as /Mr Snape/. No doubt a portion of his brain tells him that he finds himself in a danger zone (mark his unease at the sight of her tears); but his vanity and pride send signals that are too strong for so weak a man to resist. Snape is deeply enjoying his power over Pretty Cissy. He says yes, not out of the goodness of his heart, but because it is his moment of triumph over all he has wanted to be but has not been able to reach. He has finally come to the point where he can bow down to pick up a pure-blooded aristocratic beauty from where she is grovelling in the dust. Stupid, stupid, stupid. The trap closes, and Narcissa has him where she wants him: on his knees and firmly bound by a powerful spell. When she slips in her third clause it is too late for Snape to do anything else than twitch and endure. He is forced to condemn himself three times. Here endeth the story's setup. *** Part the Second: Black Wizard, White Wizard ? or, Dumbledore's Fatal Mistake ____________________________________________________________________ As soon as Narcissa has removed herself, her tears, her perfume and her breeding from Snape's hovel, there probably ensues a scene which we have not had the doubtful pleasure of witnessing ? one in which Snape might or might not have displayed his old knack for stringing together those remarkable obscenities which JKR's editors had already deleted from the Worst Memory. He has been tricked and he knows it. Although he had not originally agreed to it, he has magically pledged himself to kill Albus Dumbledore. Dear dear, he is in deep ? you know. There is no way he can extricate himself from this mess. From now on, it is either his life or Dumbledore's. This is the point at which my conjectures differ from those I have read so far. The Snape apologists whose theories I have read assume that after the catastrophic Vow he hastens to Dumbledore in order to inform him of what happened. I don't. I think Snape did not tell Dumbledore the whole truth of what happened that night ? because he doesn't dare to. He is ashamed of having been tricked like a novice. He has made an elementary mistake; and where in canon have we ever caught Snape admitting a mistake? Dumbledore, yes. Sirius, yes. Remus, yes. Snape? No way. He makes errors and he is aware of them, but he does not admit them. He tries to solve his problems on his own, in silence. So he does what he is good at: the telling of partial truths. He informs Dumbledore of the assassination plot and of the fact that he has made a Vow to protect Draco, but he never mentions the full pledge. Only he, Narcissa and Bellatrix (and Peter?) know of that. What Harry overhears is Snape telling Draco he took an Unbreakable Vow to *protect* him (Bb ed. 302). This is what Harry repeats to Dumbledore, who has already heard it from Snape and is thus not concerned. When he says he understands better than Harry, he is referring to the fact that he is aware of Draco's purpose as well as of Snape's collaboration (Bb ed. 336-7); but he does not, and neither does Harry, know of Snape's real predicament. The argument overheard by Hagrid (Bb ed. 379-80) is, in my opinion, the result of the incredible pressure Snape is under and which he, in his vanity, cannot relieve through owning up. The reluctance he is heard to display is not what Harry interprets it to be, namely, a sign of allegiance to Voldemort, because that would be too stupid when coming from a man on the point of defection; but neither, I am sorry to say, do I believe it to be caused by any request of Dumbledore's to kill him if necessary. Snape has been driven into a corner by his own frailty and is as a result beginning to behave in an unruly manner. Hagrid reports him as saying that Dumbledore is taking too much for granted ? and indeed Dumbledore is. It is not Snape's loyalty that should be questioned, but his strength. The argument takes place after Ron has been poisoned. Snape is called to task: Draco's desperate murder attempts are not only endangering random students; they may well result in Hogwarts being closed. Hagrid hears Dumbledore order Snape to keep Slytherin House ? actually meaning Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle ? under closer surveillance and as such to put a stop to these loose canons. But Snape cannot stop Draco's attempts. Rather, he is sworn to support them. The best he has been able to do, without endangering his own life, is to put Crabbe and Goyle in detention. If Dumbledore knew the full terms of the Vow, would he ask the impossible of Snape? I don't think he has any idea about the extent to which Snape is bound. Dumbledore, as JKR has pointed out in her last interview, has no equals, no confidantes. No one is up to his standard. But Dumbledore's greatest mistake is that he does not realise so. Because he can forgive and forget, he assumes that Snape and Harry can, too. Because he is not afraid to die, he thinks other people shouldn't be either. Because he sees the good in others, he thinks it is a natural thing and evident to everyone. Because he is willing to sacrifice himself, he thinks that Snape must be, too. But Snape is, unlike Dumbledore, not "a great man". He is not hero material. He is brainy, yes; but in terms of personality he is small and petty and weak. Snape is all too human, and I suspect he knows it; but he cannot explain this to Dumbledore because the grand old man simply would not understand, and Snape hates to disappoint. This is the tragedy of Snape and Dumbledore's relationship. Snape's mind is destined for greatness, but the rest of him isn't, and Dumbledore is constantly demanding everything, kindly for starters, and firmly if kindness does not yield the desired result. Look at how he ? admittedly very politely and without raising his voice ? pesters Harry about his failure to retrieve Slughorn's memory in "Lord Voldemort's Request". It is Harry's first experience of what it is like to work under Dumbledore's orders; Snape has been under this kind of pressure ever since Voldemort's resurrection. There are things Snape can do really well, such as analysing, working and battling Dark Arts. He is also a good healer ? if he knows poisons, he also masters their antidotes. He can be relied on to lend an expert's help in things he is good at. When Dumbledore returns from his first Horcrux hunt, suffering under the curse of Marvolo's ring and too weak to heal himself, Snape saves his life (Bb ed. 470- 1). Dumbledore trusts Snape to repeat this action as often as may prove necessary. I do not believe in some pre-arranged plan to stage, or otherwise effect, Dumbledore's death, if only because I cannot see what the use of that would be. Of course it may turn out in Book 7 to trigger an enchantment of some kind, but I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore should *order* anyone at all to cast an Unforgivable Curse, seeing how he knows it damages the caster's soul. The implications of my assumptions suggest this scenario for the fateful night: Dumbledore goes Horcrux-hunting with Harry, fully expecting to incur damage just like the first time with the ring; but he counts on being healed in time by his Dark Arts expert, who also saved him the first time. He will send Harry for Snape when he arrives back at Hogwarts. However: when he gets back to Hogwarts, poisoned, weakened and unwell, a few unexpected things have happened. Draco Malfoy, suspecting that his teacher (now rival) wants to steal his glory, has on his own initiative and unbeknownst to Snape smuggled Death Eaters into the school and a battle is raging. Dumbledore freezes Harry to keep him from harm at the hands of Malfoy and the adult Death Eaters; but this also means that precious time is lost for himself, because who will be alarming Snape now? McGonagall sends Flitwick, who doesn't know about Dumbledore's return and only mentions the Death Eaters, leaving Snape to figure out where Dumbledore is ? because he isn't there to fight with the others; his task is to assist the Headmaster. By the time Snape reaches Dumbledore, the old man is one inch away from death and surrounded by Death Eaters to boot. To make things worse, Draco Malfoy is there too, so the scene is fully set for the accomplishment of Dumbledore's murder. Snape is trapped. What is Snape to do? He didn't know about the Death Eaters, who now make four very unwanted witnesses. There is neither the time nor the occasion to heal Dumbledore, and there is that infernal nuisance, the Unbreakable Vow. Snape does some quick thinking and sees that there are two options. 1) He openly declares his allegiance to Dumbledore. This means that he has to put up a fight against four skilled Death Eaters plus Draco. Assuming that he can defeat them, - Draco's mission fails and the brat is killed by the Dark Lord in punishment. - Snape himself dies too, because he has failed to honour his Unbreakable Vow. - There is no chance of saving Dumbledore, who is too far gone to begin with, and who is going to heal him if Snape is dead? Result: the Order is one leader and one spy short and a young life is destroyed in a pointless battle. But at least Harry will be convinced that Snape, God rest his soul, was on the side of the angels after all. 2) He kills Dumbledore. This means that - He saves Draco's life, because the mission has been successful even if not carried out by Draco and the Dark Lord cannot be all that displeased. On top of that, Draco isn't a murderer at sixteen. - He saves his own life because he honours his Vow. - He extremely convincingly maintains his cover as a spy. Result: By sacrificing the already lost life of a dying 150-year-old wizard, he saves a sixteen-year-old (buying him time to think things over), himself, and safeguards one of the Order's most significant pawns in the coming confrontation with the Dark Lord. Drawback is that nobody trusts him anymore; but judging by people's reactions, nobody except Dumbledore and Hagrid did trust him to begin with. Snape is a Slytherin who'll save his own neck first. His predicament is so bad that he cannot escape from it without a loss of some kind. Snape, who is calculating and rational rather than heroic, chooses the way which, though hardly a win-win situation, is in his opinion the least of two evils. It is an amoral decision which, however terrible, had to be taken and, I daresay, may prove of best advantage to Harry and the Order in Book 7. The look Snape and Dumbledore exchange on the battlement is to me the most chilling moment of Half-Blood Prince. If my assumption is correct and Snape has kept the third clause of the Unbreakable Vow from Dumbledore, then those few seconds are even more heart-breaking than I found them at first sight. When Dumbledore whispers "Severus please " he is not pleading for his life, because he is not afraid to die; neither is he asking Snape to kill him as arranged, because there was no such arrangement. What he means is, "please don't tell me I was wrong about you all the time ? that I have confided in you when you were not worthy of my faith ? that I have defended you against others when they were right in their suspicions." Snape's revulsion is the result of his hurt pride, as he realises even Dumbledore doubts his allegiance at that moment. No doubt it helped him perform a convincing Killing Curse. Dumbledore's death is the lamentable outcome of a number of circumstances ? Draco's efforts certainly helped cause it, but Snape's foolishly accepted Unbreakable Vow is at least equally important. There was, for once, no malicious intent on Snape's side, and yet he has, one could say, committed what is possibly his worst crime. Both he and Dumbledore have become victims of his human weakness, of character flaws combined with the vulnerabilities connected to his social and intellectual background, childhood events and poor choices made in the past. Dumbledore's trust has been justified, but he has overestimated Snape's capacities. Severus Snape will not be on the side of the Dark forces in Book 7. He has not killed Dumbledore because he wanted to, but out of what he felt as necessity. He is not proud of it and it gives him no pleasure ? quite the contrary. He has personally destroyed his only ally. Voldemort cannot replace Dumbledore in Snape's life: for that, he has too little sympathy and too little inclination to share, whether it be knowledge or power. He is too fickle to offer any sense of security, and too tyrannical to give freedom. Snape will help destroy him, if only because he clings passionately to his own life. But, I fear, despite his essential allegiance to Dumbledore he is highly unlikely to survive Book 7 ? the story's logic may well demand his demise for killing the thing he loves. Yours severely, Sigune From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 13:02:29 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 06:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801130229.18302.qmail@web32703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135893 delwynmarch wrote: My question was not about the ship in itself. It was about the *romance*. I totally agree that JKR heavily foreshadowed H/G. What I am asking for is "show me where it says that the *romance* between Harry and Ginny is such a great thing". Lynn: I'm still not sure exactly what you are looking for, but I'm going to make a stab. I don't think you are going to see the giggly, first blooms of love type of thing you might expect from teenagers. Harry and Ginny have been friends too long and are too comfortable with each other at this stage. Let's face it, Harry is comfortable enough with Ginny not be to embarassed by her seeing him in his PJs. Also, I don't see either of them to being comfortable with the Lavender/Won-Won type of relationship either. Let's not forget that this is a children's book and we're probably not going to see much more overt than kissing. As someone inferred at Accio, do we really think that with all the raging hormones that are teenagers at Hogwarts that no one is being physically intimate? For me, a defining moment in their physical intimacy with each other was the scene where Ginny was sitting in front of Harry, leaning against his legs and discussing the tatoo. (UK p. 500) That's a very initimate thing to do. We don't see that kind of physical contact/familiarity before that. To me, it shows that they are now very comfortable touching each other, something we haven't seen before. test'; "> --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 1 13:04:14 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:04:14 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: <42EDD00B.9030008@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135894 > eggplant107 wrote: > > But a pointless sacrifice was not in character and Dumbledore's death > > accomplished nothing, in fact it was a disaster because now the most > > powerful weapon the good guys had (with the possible exception of > > Harry) is gone. If Dumbledore did have some secret grand master plan > > cooked up with Snape I think it is very safe to say that things did > > not go as expected. > > I also do not think letting Harry watch as Snape killed Dumbledore > > without telling Harry it was what Dumbledore wanted could have > > possibly been part of the plan. In book 5 Dumbledore blundered in not > > telling Harry earlier about the prophecy and a good man died as a > > result, I don't believe he would make the same mistake and keep Harry > > in the dark again. He must have known if he saw his Headmaster > > murdered Harry would spend the rest of his life if need be to hunt > > down and kill the murderer, he might even make getting Snape a greater > > priority than killing Voldemort. It seems to me it would have been > > prudent to say to Harry "Oh by the way, Professor Snape is going to > > kill me with an unforgivable curse but don't worry, I asked him to do > > it". Dumbledore told Harry nothing of the sort so we can conclude that > > Snape's actions were not part of the plan and thus Snape is just what > > he seems to be, evil. Marianne now: LOL! I would have loved to hear DD say that and see Harry's stunned reaction! Much as I would like to firmly believe in ESE!Snape, I can't commit to it right now, since I've never liked Snape. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, and not let my dislike color my view. As far as DD not making the same mistake twice, we are pointedly shown DD not giving Harry any more information about why he trusts Snape, other than the not-quite-believable "he was remorseful..." I'm sure DD deliberatly held back some information because, well, I don't know why. To protect Harry? To protect someone else? Who knows? But, I can see where he might not want to bluntly tell Harry that Snape might have to kill him and not to worry about it. > > Kathy writes: > While I am quite certain that Dumbledore did not plan his own > death, I am equally certain that he was aware of the possibility of it. > He would have covered all possible bases. > If the potion had killed him, it would have been a truly > pointless death, which is why he wanted Snape brought to him > immediately. If Draco killed him, it would also have done nothing to > imptove the situation for the Order. Only by having Snape kill him could > he place an Order member right beside Voldemort. Marianne: I suppose, but wouldn't he have thought it through to the point that he tells some senior Order member that this might happen? Now the only evidence the Order has is DD's death by Snape's AK, along with Harry's interpretation of what DD told Harry about why Snape is to be trusted. And, as we saw, it did not seem to strike McGonagall, Lupin, etc. as particularly believable. So, Snape, if he is indeed still on the side of the angels, is cut off from his fellow angels because they think he's a murdering turncoat. Snape will have to do some fancy footwork to make anyone in the Order believe him. Kathy: > Yes, he made the same mistake that he made last time in not > telling Harry the whole story, but he really can't do that. The only > reason that Voldemort is not in Harry's mind is because he is hiding > from Harry what he is doing. He still has access to Harry's mind if he > chooses to access it. Dumbledore has to be deliberately vague in what he > tells Harry about Snape in spite of the fact that it is going to cause > problems in the end. Marianne: I have a problem with the idea that DD can't tell Harry everything because Vmort might decide to stroll through Harry's mind at any time and see what's going on. DD seems to think that the hunt for the Horcruxes is absolutely crucial, and that Harry should say nothing about it to anyone, except his friends. Yet, all this accumulated information about them, including the Pensieve memories and the destruction of two of the Horcruxes, is sitting there in Harry's mind, ripe for discovery by Vmort. Surely DD didn't want Vmort to know that they were actively engaged in hunting down the various pieces of his soul. If there is that much concern for secrecy to cover Snape's butt, there should be even more secrecy to cover the quest to destroy Vmort's soul pieces to make him more vulnerable. The ultimate goal is still to defeat Voldemort, not to protect Snape. Marianne From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 13:06:57 2005 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:06:57 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135895 Rizza wrote: > "I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the Harry/Ginny relationship. I guess one of the biggest reasons I don't have a problem with it is because it allows me to use my imagination." Del replies: > And that's precisely why I have a problem with it: because it is left entirely to our imagination. Diana replies: There are a few clues about the 'quality' of their romantic relationship in the book, but this was done with no descriptive scenes of groping and/or snogging. The only kiss described is the first kiss. We get several descriptive sentences regarding Harry's feelings about Ginny post-kiss and about how he feels while dating Ginny. Here's what I've pulled from the book: Pg 535: "The fact that Harry Potter was going out with Ginny Weasley seemed to interest a great number of people, most of htem girls, yet Harry found himself newly and happily impervious to gossip over hte next few weeks. After all, it made a very nice change to be talked about because of something that was making him happier than he could remember being for a very long time...." Pg. 535-536 Ginny tells Harry that Romilda Vane kept bugging Ginny to tell her if Harry had a hippogriff tattooed on his chest, so Ginny told her Harry had a Hungarian Horntail tattoo. This implies that Romilda Vane (and probably everyone else at Hogwarts) assumes that Ginny has seen Harry without a shirt on. Her next comment about Ron having a Pygmy Puff tattoo somewhere on her body indicates she has seen Ron naked or at least partially naked (which as his sister in a crowded house is likely). The positioning of her teasing Ron about a hidden tattoo right after discussing Harry's tattoo (yes, they don't exist but that's not the point here) is meant to indicate at least some physical intimacy between Ginny and Harry, or at the very least an *assumed* physical intimacy by other students at Hogwarts. This assumption and speculation of private physical intimacy between them is probably because they aren't going around snogging in public. (Pg 536 Ron says "And just as long as you don't start snogging each other in public-") Pg 536 (Pg 536 "...Harry was sitting beside the window in the common room, supposedly finishing his Herbology homework but in reality reliving a particularly happy hour he had spent down by the lake with Ginny at lunchtime...") Harry's and Ginny's time together is greatly curtailed by her upcoming OWLS and Harry's Saturday detentions, which means there's not much to describe when they're both so busy they can't go out on dates. But the times they are together Harry treasures and relives in his thoughts. Pg 635 [Harry talking about Fleur] "She's not that bad," said Harry. "Ugly, though," he added hastily, as Ginny raised her eyebrows and she let out a reluctant giggle." pg 646 [Harry breaking up with Ginny] "It's been like...like something out of someone else's life, these last few weeks with you." Throughout the conversation, Harry has to "steel himself" and have "resolve" to break up with Ginny because he feels she's the best thing to ever happen to him. He even expresses regret that he was so slow to notice her and ask her out, even lamenting that they could have had "years" of dating if he'd just woken up earlier. This is not something someone says if they're not in a terrific romantic relationship. Harry could never talk to Cho easily because they weren't actually friends. Harry's dating relationship with Ginny is so great because they are friends too. Notice how his thoughts about Ginny are described versus his thoughts about Cho from OotP. With Cho, Harry was always a bit uncomfortable around her. Part of it was Cedric's death between them and Harry being younger, but most of it was because Cho and Harry weren't comfortable around each other just hanging out. With Ginny, Harry can be himself. If Cho had told Harry that she'd told another girl that Harry had a Hungarian Horntail tattoo on his chest, Harry would have nearly died of embarassment. But Ginny tells him that and he thinks it's quite funny and actually thanks her for it! As for JKR leaving it to our imagination, I agree she did leave portions of it to our imagination, but the framework for Harry's feelings for Ginny and how Ginny made him feel about himself are in there. This is going to sound very wierd, but I believe JKR left a lot of it to readers' imaginations to respect Harry's *privacy*. Yes, I know the books are from Harry's POV, but we don't see him going to the loo being described, do we? Harry doesn't strike me as a character that would like his lovelife described in great detail, so JKR went with that *feeling* when writing about his relationship with Ginny. Remember, we didn't get a description of his kiss with Cho either, just the lead-up to the kiss and his discussion of it with Hermione and Ron afterwards. The lack of intimate details about his physical relationship with Ginny definitely fits his character, IMO. Like Rizza, I like using my imagination for Harry's lovelife because 16-year-old first love is so sweet that it's fun to imagine. :) Diana L. From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 13:09:14 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:09:14 -0000 Subject: Shove a Bezor was Re: many replies to many posts from many people, ALL SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135896 With regard to why Snape wrote "shove a beazor down their throats..." Firstly, I agree that it was a clue for interested Snapefans that we could get from his sarcastic nature "Karen Barker" >I think it is just an prize example of Snape's sarcastic nature. >Then no doubt a long and conveluted >process to actually make the antedote. I can just hear Snape >saying "Fine. Or you *could* just shove a bezoar down their throat." but also that it deomonstrates the point made earlier in the Hermione/ multiple intelligences posts. The reason why Hermione did not do better than Harry in potions class was that Hermione does not exhibit any imagination, but rigidly sticks to the instructions, showing she has a gift for precision (making her good)but not for imagination or invention (for which one would have to know all the properties of all the ingredients in a potion in terms of what thye're meant to achieve, how they react with others etc). Snape demonstrates the supreme skill of a potions genius with this phrase - pragmatism. He doesn't do more than necessary to achieve an effect and recognises that the time it takes to brew the potion is a risk- increasing waste of time in many cases. So slytherin, to value ends above means! Snapesangel From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 1 13:17:34 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:17:34 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Please ignore my previous message, it was sent in error > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" Wrote > > > Dumbledore *sacrificing* his life > > is completely in character for me. > > But a pointless sacrifice was not in character and Dumbledore's death > accomplished nothing, in fact it was a disaster because now the most > powerful weapon the good guys had (with the possible exception of > Harry) is gone. Hickengruendler: But it won't be pointless, if Dumbledore was going to die from the Potion he drank anyway. It is mentioned in the book, that there are Potions for which no antidote exists, therefore it should not have been ruled out that Dumbledore *knew* his days were numbered. And in this case the sacrifice makes sense, because otherwise Snape would have died as well (see the Unbreakable Vow). And in this case the Order would have lost two powerful weapons. In this special case, the sacrifice would have made sense. If Dumbledore did have some secret grand master plan > cooked up with Snape I think it is very safe to say that things did > not go as expected. I do not believe that having a gang of Death > Eaters and a homicidal werewolf who likes to attack kids enter the > castle while Dumbledore was away was part of the plan. Hickengruendler: Yes, I agree. I think neither Snape nor Dumbledore knew how exactly Draco wanted to bring the Death Eaters into Hogwarts. Snape asked Draco after Slughorn's party and Draco didn't answer him. And I also think it's possible that Snape bluffed in front of Bellatrix and Narcissa, and that he didn't know what exactly Draco's task was until later. > > I also do not think letting Harry watch as Snape killed Dumbledore > without telling Harry it was what Dumbledore wanted could have > possibly been part of the plan. In book 5 Dumbledore blundered in not > telling Harry earlier about the prophecy and a good man died as a > result, I don't believe he would make the same mistake and keep Harry > in the dark again. He must have known if he saw his Headmaster > murdered Harry would spend the rest of his life if need be to hunt > down and kill the murderer, he might even make getting Snape a greater > priority than killing Voldemort. Hickengruendler: I think Dumbledore did not want Harry to see it. It's just that it happened this way. Originally he sent him away to fetch Snape, but than he froze him and Draco appeared. Because he wanted to convince Draco to join the right side instead of fighting him, Dumbledore froze Harry, who would have attacked Draco at once. And then the other Death Eaters appeared as well and if Dumbledore had lifted the jinx, Harry would probably have died as well. I do not think Dumbledore was happy that Harry saw it. (At least I really hope so). It seems to me it would have been > prudent to say to Harry "Oh by the way, Professor Snape is going to > kill me with an unforgivable curse but don't worry, I asked him to do > it". Dumbledore told Harry nothing of the sort so we can conclude that > Snape's actions were not part of the plan and thus Snape is just what > he seems to be, evil. > > Eggplant Hickengruendler: Dumbledore also told Harry, that he knows much more than Harry thinks. And I'm inclined to believe him on this. Hickengruendler From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 13:28:44 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 06:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's Character Development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801132845.65961.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135898 --- lindseyharrisst wrote: > > A question (not meant to sound combatative, lol) .Why is Tonks > perfect for Remus? I was genuinely surprised by the pairing > because I hadn't > seen any reason why they would be perfect for each other... Ditto. I actually got the feeling in the hospital wing that he was too polite to say "what part of 'I'm not interested' is too hard for you to comprehend?" Magda (who thinks there was waaaaay too much shipping in HBP and hopes JKR got it out of her system all at once) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anujaasathe at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 09:54:14 2005 From: anujaasathe at gmail.com (anujaasathe) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:54:14 -0000 Subject: Why was Snape teaching DADA? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135899 I am not sure why we saw Snape teachind DADA this year.Is it: 1.because Dumbledore finally tusts him so much that he thinks it wont do any harm 2.because he cant (yet again)find a DADA teacher but knows he can find another one for potions.so after getting a new teacher for potions he had no choice but to let Snape teach DADA? 3.or because he always intended to get the memory from Slughorn and so needed him at Hogwarts? Anuja. From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 11:15:44 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How do you kill a Dementor? In-Reply-To: <008001c59683$b220e6b0$59c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20050801111544.94059.qmail@web33305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135900 Does anybody have any therories about how the OotP will permanently get rid of the dementors? Because if they don't, they're always going to have problems with them since they need people to kiss. I wonder if its possible to kill a dementor. Cat From dlatchman at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 06:56:29 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 02:56:29 -0400 Subject: Horcrux creation and different kinds of magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135901 Deb wrote: > What might be the antithesis of the prophecy part that > states "neither can live while the other survives"? How about "Both > can live if neither one dies"? The prophecy states "the one with > the power to *vanquish* the Dark Lord approaches" (emphasis > added). The > prophecy does NOT state the one approaching can/will/should/must > **kill** the Dark Lord... it says this one has the power to > vanquish > the Dark Lord. The prophecy states that: The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches? born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies? and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not? and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives? the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies?" "either must dies at the hands of the other" means that someone has to kill the other. Either Voldemort kills Harry or harry kills Voldemort. Also in HBP, Harry and Dumbledore discussed this and Harry came to the conclusion that the prophecy doesn't mean that he doesn't have a choice in the matter. He likened it to being a gladiator chosing to enter the arena with his head high as opposed to one being pushed in. It's all about choice. David L. From dlatchman at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 06:49:54 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 02:49:54 -0400 Subject: Why Lily, Not James? + prophecy-translation (WAS: Re: Why James, Not Lily?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135902 nobodysrib wrote: Lily knows she's a horcrux and figures out a way to transfer this to Harry; Lily's dying to save Harry transfers part of the horcrux to Harry (via Old Magic, not via a witch or wizard`s spell); or Voldemort`s creating-a-horcrux spell was cast on Lily but the words used specified a GG descendent (thus easing the Lily-to-Harry transfer, or perhaps *causing* it when Harry was born and another GG descendent was created). The literal transference: eyes. Regardless of scenario, Lily's eyes, part of the horcrux, are transferred to Harry. And now Harry literally has his mothers' eyes. The problem I have with all the living people Horcruxes that everyone seems to be coming up with is that we have all seem to forgotten what Dumbledore said about living Horcruxes. They are inadvisable as you are "confiding" your soul to another living entity. One of the advantages, it seems, of having a living Horcrux is the level of control one has over that being. It also seems that the risk means that being may also have control over the person who has given that aprt of his or her soul. This is in essence a possession. (I am not trying to get religious or spiritual here but it is th best comparison I can think of...) So I hardly think that Lily is a Horcrux as there is nothing to support so far that she was showing signs of such a possession like Ginny did witht he diary. As for any deliberation on Lily's part when she tried to save Harry's life there doesn't seem to have been any conscious spell casting. In an interview Rowling specifically said that the differences between Lily's and James' death was the manner in which they made their choices and hence the nature of thier sacrifices. James was described by Rowling as something more animalistic, his family was in danger and he reacted. Lily was given a choice. She was asked to leave as Voldemort had no wish to kill her. She chose the lay down on her son and it was that conscious sacrifice, the love behind that action, caused the spell to rebound. She didn't do any wand waving or any wandless magic to evoke any protection or transfer any powers as I imagine she didn't have the time. As far as turning Lily into a Horcrux I think she would have known if Voldemort did such a thing. It wouldn't be something you won't know. Even if you didn't know or suspect I imagine others would. As for Lily being a Griffindor descendant it is plausible. It would have meant that her blood line were essentially squibs where the magical gene lay dormant for several genrations. Unlikely but not impossible on a genetics level. It could explain why her parents were so happy to havea witch in the family as the family may have known about a magical past in the family tree and were happy to see it return. If so it could explain some of Petunia's bitterness towards her sister and her nephew. Even if Lily was a Griffindor descendant, Voldemort shows magpie tendencies. He likes to steal objects and not so much people. So I doubt that we have any human Horcruxes moving about in the world. Up to now we still don;t know the significance of Harry's being the same colour as his mother's. In fact we don't even know if that was the same colour he was born with. The colour could be an effect of Lily's sacrifice and hence a visual representation of her love in him. Who knows? Maybe we'll see in book seven. David L. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 1 14:02:41 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:02:41 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135903 "severelysigune" wrote: > There is no way he can extricate himself from this mess. From now on, > it is either his life or Dumbledore's. This is the point at which > my > conjectures differ from those I have read so far. The Snape > apologists whose theories I have read assume that after the > catastrophic Vow he hastens to Dumbledore in order to inform him of > what happened. I don't. I think Snape did not tell Dumbledore the > whole truth of what happened that night ? because he doesn't > dare to. > He is ashamed of having been tricked like a novice. He has made an > elementary mistake; and where in canon have we ever caught Snape > admitting a mistake? Dumbledore, yes. Sirius, yes. Remus, yes. Snape? > No way. He makes errors and he is aware of them, but he does not > admit them. He tries to solve his problems on his own, in silence. So > he does what he is good at: the telling of partial truths. He informs > Dumbledore of the assassination plot and of the fact that he has made > a Vow to protect Draco, but he never mentions the full pledge. Only > he, Narcissa and Bellatrix (and Peter?) know of that. Marianne: First let me say that this theory all holds together for me. I'm not comfortable with ESE!Snape, but neither am I comfortable with the standard "he's not nice, but he's good" Snape, either. This theory works in character traits and flaws that ring true for me. It makes Snape more believable, and more sympathetic, that he was caught in this bind, and perhaps was desperately trying to figure out a way to avoid any of the three dying (himself, Draco or DD), but still could never bring himself to come clean to DD. I also like that this version of Narcissa is not simply the weepy damsel in distress, but a more manipulative, calculating woman. Sure, she plays the part well, like some character out of a romance novel, but, geez, she's married to a DE, she's got to know something of what those folks do, she has no problem with the thought of Dumbledore being murdered, as long as it's not her kid who has to run the risk of doing the dirty deed. So, I don't find her to be a particularly sympathetic character. Sigune: By the time Snape reaches Dumbledore, the old man is one > inch away from death and surrounded by Death Eaters to boot. To make > things worse, Draco Malfoy is there too, so the scene is fully set > for the accomplishment of Dumbledore's murder. Snape is trapped. > > What is Snape to do? He didn't know about the Death Eaters, who now > make four very unwanted witnesses. There is neither the time nor the > occasion to heal Dumbledore, and there is that infernal nuisance, the > Unbreakable Vow. Snape does some quick thinking and sees that there > are two options. > > 1) He openly declares his allegiance to Dumbledore. This means that > he has to put up a fight against four skilled Death Eaters plus > Draco. Assuming that he can defeat them, > - Draco's mission fails and the brat is killed by the Dark Lord in > punishment. > - Snape himself dies too, because he has failed to honour his > Unbreakable Vow. > - There is no chance of saving Dumbledore, who is too far gone to > begin with, and who is going to heal him if Snape is dead? > > Result: the Order is one leader and one spy short and a young life is > destroyed in a pointless battle. But at least Harry will be convinced > that Snape, God rest his soul, was on the side of the angels after > all. > > 2) He kills Dumbledore. This means that > - He saves Draco's life, because the mission has been successful even > if not carried out by Draco and the Dark Lord cannot be all that > displeased. On top of that, Draco isn't a murderer at sixteen. > - He saves his own life because he honours his Vow. > - He extremely convincingly maintains his cover as a spy. > > Result: By sacrificing the already lost life of a dying 150-year- old > wizard, he saves a sixteen-year-old (buying him time to think things > over), himself, and safeguards one of the Order's most significant > pawns in the coming confrontation with the Dark Lord. Drawback is > that nobody trusts him anymore; but judging by people's reactions, > nobody except Dumbledore and Hagrid did trust him to begin with. Marianne: I think the one thing that bothers me with the scenario is that Snape has to have realized that it would eventually come down to someone dying. Do you think he was trying throughout the year to somehow come up with a counter-plan that would keep the 3 of them alive (Snape, Draco, DD)? Or are you saying that Snape knew eventually he'd be faced with a horrible situation and that then he'd make what he considered the best choice at the time? Sigune: > The look Snape and Dumbledore exchange on the battlement is to me the > most chilling moment of Half-Blood Prince. If my assumption is > correct and Snape has kept the third clause of the Unbreakable Vow > from Dumbledore, then those few seconds are even more heart- breaking > than I found them at first sight. When Dumbledore whispers > "Severus > please " he is not pleading for his life, because he is not > afraid > to die; neither is he asking Snape to kill him as arranged, because > there was no such arrangement. What he means is, "please > don't tell > me I was wrong about you all the time ? that I have confided in > you > when you were not worthy of my faith ? that I have defended you > against others when they were right in their suspicions." > Snape's > revulsion is the result of his hurt pride, as he realises even > Dumbledore doubts his allegiance at that moment. No doubt it helped > him perform a convincing Killing Curse. Marianne: And that's been my interpretation of DD's words - that he believed, at least for a moment, that he had been wrong about Snape. Maybe there was some Legilimens going on between the two, as some have theorized, and DD was then able to see the situation Snape had been in all year and quite possibly recognize that the best choice was for Snape to save Draco by killing DD. But, I wonder, if that was indeed the case, if there was not some residual thought in DD's brain of "Severus, if only you had trusted me enough to tell me the whole story of the Unbreakable Vow..." From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 14:07:15 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:07:15 -0000 Subject: Hiding Horcruxes: LV is an Evil Overlord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135904 > > Merrylinks: > >Did Tom Riddle ever store something in one of the vaults [at > Gringotts]? This might be an excellent place to hide a Horcrux. > > Julie: > > > I think you are onto something there. I wonder if the diary was > the horcrux left in Hogwarts since he "preserved his 16 year old > self." > hg replies: > I also agree that Gringotts is an excellent hiding place. I got the > impression reading Sorcerer's Stone that we'd be returning to > Gringott's. That's on the Evil Overlord list! (found here: http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/filmtv/overlord.html ) Evil Overlord Rule #5: "The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness." LV has been the perfect Evil Overlord so far. He has not made any of the stupid mistakes that James Bond villians make. Other Evil Overlord Rules that apply to LV: Shooting (or AK) is not too good for my enemies. When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No." I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need to prove it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my weaker enemies alive to show they pose no threat. The hero is not entitled to a last kiss, a last cigarette, or any other form of last request. I will never utter the sentence "But before I kill you, there's just one thing I want to know." When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to their advice. (Avery and the MoM) I will not have a son. Although his laughably under-planned attempt to usurp power would easily fail, it would provide a fatal distraction at a crucial point in time. I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, but one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father. Despite its proven stress-relieving effect, I will not indulge in maniacal laughter. When so occupied, it's too easy to miss unexpected developments that a more attentive individual could adjust to accordingly. I will hire a talented fashion designer to create original uniforms for my Legions of Terror, as opposed to some cheap knock-offs that make them look like Nazi stormtroopers, Roman footsoldiers, or savage Mongol hordes. All were eventually defeated and I want my troops to have a more positive mind-set. No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head. I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless -- my troops will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and rocks. I will maintain a realistic assessment of my strengths and weaknesses. Even though this takes some of the fun out of the job, at least I will never utter the line "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!!" (After that, death is usually instantaneous.) No matter how attractive certain members of the rebellion are, there is probably someone just as attractive who is not desperate to kill me. Therefore, I will think twice before ordering a prisoner sent to my bedchamber. I will never build only one of anything important. All important systems will have reduntant control panels and power supplies. For the same reason I will always carry at least two fully loaded weapons at all times. All naive, busty tavern wenches in my realm will be replaced with surly, world-weary waitresses who will provide no unexpected reinforcement and/or romantic subplot for the hero or his sidekick. (Rosmerta was Imperio'd.) I will not fly into a rage and kill a messenger who brings me bad news just to illustrate how evil I really am. Good messengers are hard to come by. I won't require high-ranking female members of my organization to wear a stainless-steel bustier. Morale is better with a more casual dress- code. Similarly, outfits made entirely from black leather will be reserved for formal occasions. (No canon evidence that Bellatrix ever wore a stainless-steel bustier.) I will not turn into a snake. It never helps. (Okay, LV broke this one.) I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. Now they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X. If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring anywhere, I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead of waiting for them to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards me in my old age. (This is LV's defining characteristic, when he went after Baby Harry.) If I absolutely must ride into battle, I will certainly not ride at the forefront of my Legions of Terror, nor will I seek out my opposite number among his army. (LV sends his DE whenever possible.) I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve. Once my power is secure, I will destroy all those pesky time-travel devices. (Although the Trio did this for him in the MoM in OotP.) If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. If I learn that a callow youth has begun a quest to destroy me, I will slay him while he is still a callow youth instead of waiting for him to mature. (Baby Harry again.) I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge. (Nagini.) If I learn the whereabouts of the one artifact which can destroy me, I will not send all my troops out to seize it. Instead I will send them out to seize something else and quietly put a Want-Ad in the local paper. (LV kinda violated this one, but he kinda sent Harry to get the Prophacy.) The deformed mutants and odd-ball psychotics will have their place in my Legions of Terror. However before I send them out on important covert missions that require tact and subtlety, I will first see if there is anyone else equally qualified who would attract less attention. (Lucius is LV's best MoM spy.) I will spare someone who saved my life sometime in the past. This is only reasonable as it encourages others to do so. However, the offer is good one time only. If they want me to spare them again, they'd better save my life again. (Maybe Harry is the Evil Overlord!) If all the heroes are standing together around a strange device and begin to taunt me, I will pull out a conventional weapon instead of using my unstoppable superweapon on them. (Perhaps LV's downfall at GH!) I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time. (DE vs. Harry et al in the MoM) Finally, to keep my subjects permanently locked in a mindless trance, I will provide each of them with free unlimited Internet access. (Crouch Sr. ignored this one to his downfall.) I will not order my trusted lieutenant to kill the infant who is destined to overthrow me -- I'll do it myself. (Baby Harry again.) I will not waste time making my enemy's death look like an accident -- I'm not accountable to anyone and my other enemies wouldn't believe it. I will make it clear that I do know the meaning of the word "mercy"; I simply choose not show them any. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as members of my organization, nor will they be required to wear military boots or adhere to any other dress codes. (Oops.) Any and all magic and/or technology that can miraculously resurrect a secondary character who has given up his/her life through self sacrifice will be outlawed and destroyed. (JKR saw to this herself.) I will offer oracles the choice of working exclusively for me or being executed. (Ollivander?) I will not rely entirely upon "totally reliable" spells that can be neutralized by relatively inconspicuous talismen. (Oops! AK!) Prior to kidnapping an older male scientist and forcing him to work for me, I will investigate his offspring and make sure that he has neither a beautiful but naive daughter who is willing to risk anything to get him back, nor an estranged son who works in the same field but had a falling-out with his father many years ago. (Ollivander.) Before appointing someone as my trusted lieutenant, I will conduct a thorough background investigation and security clearance. (DD's mistake; LV's victory.) If I make a zombie out of one of the heroes, rather than killing him, I will not put him in a position where he will make ANY contact with his friends, lest he remember them and turn against me, or they learn how to free all my zombies by freeing him. (Crouch Sr.'s mistake again.) Just some thoughts to nosh on, TK -- TigerPatronus From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 14:07:35 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:07:35 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135905 Rizza wrote: Plus, if Ginny is good enough for Harry, why shouldn't she be good enough for us? VERY GOOD POINT, and what you wrote about Ron was right on as well. Brotherly comments about giving them "permission" and asking them to not snog in front of him (or maybe it was in public... I don't remember) don't care the same anger and lack of acceptance that he had with Ginny/Dean. I also think you also touched a very important point comparing Harry/Cho to Harry/Ginny. Harry only felt those feelings about Cho when he was NEAR her. Cho was the first girl he noticed, and it was probably for her Quidditch skills, good looks, and perhaps even her popularity... not for how she made him feel or how she understood him (which she didn't). Now, we know that Ginny is an attractive and popular girl, but it is also clear that this is NOT why Harry has fallen for her. He comments (in his thoughts) that he had grown accustomed to her being around them at the burrow and forgot that she didn't hang around with he, Ron, and Hermione (and I think someone else has pointed out that he wanted Ginny to be with him and Neville and Luna in the compartment, where with Cho he had wished he was with "cooler people" or something like that). When describing Harry's feeling for Ginny and their relationship, Ginny is described as his best source of comfort and the one thing that made him happier than he could remember... not as the best looking girl in the world or the greatest kisser or something that would imply a purely physical relationship. So, yes, Ginny IS good enough for Harry. She might be pretty and popular and talented, but, more importantly, she understands Harry in a way that they can communicate just in a look.. and cares enough about him to let him do what must be done ( which he knew she would accept ... which she said she even expected) while giving him the important bit of information that she never gave up on him... and I don't think she ever will. From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 14:11:51 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:11:51 -0000 Subject: Why was Snape teaching DADA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135906 Another possible reason: DD never let Snape teach DADA before because of LV's curse on the job, which he admits in HBP is real. If he gives Snape the DADA job, Snape might end up attacked by centaurs or losing his memory or locked in a trunk all year or whatever horrible thing is destined for the DADA teacher-- and DD doesn't want to risk that; he wants to keep Snape around. But in HBP Snape has taken a vow that he'll either have to break or fulfill by the end of the year, meaning he'll either be dead or he'll have to flee. Since he'll be gone anyway, might as well give him the DADA post. From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 14:29:22 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:29:22 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135907 > Rizza wrote: > "I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the Harry/Ginny relationship. I guess one of the biggest reasons I don't have a problem with it is because it allows me to use my imagination." > > Del replies: > And that's precisely why I have a problem with it: because it is left entirely to our imagination. But our imagination is not necessarily in line with JKR's intention. For example, what in HBP prevents me from imagining an abusive relationship between those two? What prevents me from imagining that Ginny is simply secretly feeding Love Potion to Harry? What prevents me from imagining that Ginny was hugely disappointed with what a romance with Harry really looks like, after dreaming of it for so many years, that she was actually relieved when Harry broke up with her, and that this is the true reason she let him go so easily? > > Those who want to imagine a perfectly happy H/G romance can. But those who either don't want to, can't, or don't care to, have no reason to agree that this romance is so beautiful. There is no canon either way, so nobody's right, and nobody's wrong. The romance between Harry and Ginny might as well not exist, it would be better than this undefined unknown. > > Those books are JKR's books. It is HER job to tell us what happens in them. If I want to invent my own version of HP, I'll start writing fanfiction. If I want to see how other fans view the H/G romance, I'll start reading fanfiction. But when I buy the genuine thing (with very real money too), I want the genuine version of the author. So when JKR writes that there's a romance going on between her hero and the girl she always destined for him, I want HER to tell me what's going on. > It's HER JOB. > **Marcela now: Here posting a link for your "enlightening", H/G ship for Dummies. Have a laugh, :D http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2496472/1/ Marcela From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 14:36:58 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:36:58 -0000 Subject: many replies to many posts from many people, ALL SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" I got > so tired of hearing how brilliant Snape was to write in his old > textbook that I developed a theory that his mother or other wizarding > relative was a Potions expert and leafed through his Potions textbook > stating corrections on the recipes and the kid hastily wrote them all > down from dictation and thus, like Harry, appeared to be an extra- good > Potions student due to outside help. > > I can think of only two reasons for writing 'just shove a bezoar down > their throat' in the antidote section. Once is that Snape's tutor > wrote it down for Snape to use in class or in life, and the other is > that the book magically wrote it down for Harry to use in class. I > mean, it makes no sense to me that Snape would write that down for his > own use -- it is the sort of thing that one can REMEMBER, not like the > detailed corrections to recipes. My take on this is that Snape's mother probably made many of the annotations to the Potions textbook. It was originally hers, after all. This would also explain why Hermione thought the notes had been written by a female. This doesn't mean that Snape is a potions dunderhead, just that he wasn't the first in the family to make creative modifications to the recipes in the book. As for the "just shove a bezoar down their throat," that sounds like something you would write in the margins while listening to an endless droning lecture on fashioning antidotes. It's not written as a personal reminder, it is written to vent frustration. Just one more observation. The title "Half-Blood Prince" may have been an affectionate nickname Snape's mother used for him. It combines a slight put-down with a veiled compliment--the sort of name that would be used just between the two of them. Snape probably didn't mean to have it become public knowledge, but scribbled it in the book because the book was a physical reminder of the mother who loved him. Merrylinks From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 14:37:13 2005 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:37:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: <20050801130229.18302.qmail@web32703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135909 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > delwynmarch wrote: > am asking for is "show me where it says that the *romance* between > Harry and Ginny is such a great thing". > > > Lynn: > > I'm still not sure exactly what you are looking for, but I'm going to make a stab. > > > For me, a defining moment in their physical intimacy with each other was the scene where Ginny was sitting in front of Harry, leaning against his legs and discussing the tatoo. (UK p. 500) That's a very initimate thing to do. We don't see that kind of physical contact/familiarity before that. To me, it shows that they are now very comfortable touching each other, something we haven't seen before. > Now Me: As someone who was in no ship camp whatsoever, this was the scene to me that said that their relationship was much more than snogging. They are still friends but their relationship has grown to that next level of physical intimacy. I too believe we missed out on a lot when they took that walk after quidditch. I would have loved to hear, but maybe like 'obscene hand gestures' JKR wanted us to *insert mature talk here* still I wish that we could have had a glimpse. Maybe book seven is going to have love where this had crush/snogging. I truly believe that Ginny loves Harry and that's why she could let him go without tears and agony. I think it is implied that after/if V is defeated they will return to each other. I think it is also I sign of love that she already knew that he would have to do this. She know him very very well and also wants him to be himself, she doesn't want to change him because of their new relationship. Quickly, this is my reason for H/G shipping over H/Hr, and I believe I feel this way because I am the mother and a teacher and maybe have a little JKR insight (but probably not) I think that it is less that Ginny is his mother and more that Ginny represents a way for Harry to get the life he always dreamed of. Harry was HORRIBLY neglected as a child. If you imagine what he went through in real terms, the Dursleys should be in jail! But imagine for a moment emotionally what this means to him. He has never been loved in his life that he remembers, he probably does not know how to speak in romantic love terms. I tell my husband and kids I love them every day and I (usually) hear it back. While I am not sure that the burrow is like that, there is obviously love in that house, there is warmth and touching and all of the things Harry doesn't quite understand but wished he had. The Weasleys are poor, Harry is Rich and all he wants is what the Weasleys have: Love. Family love. Ginny embodies family love to him. But he doesn't love her like a sister, he loves her for what she means to his present and his future. That some day Harry might have the chance to raise his own children in the way that he wishes he was raised. Hermione on the other hand, doesn't conjur those 'warm feelings', she was raised my Muggles and, honesly, Harry *should* HATE muggles given what he went through. I don't think that is how he feels but I think that underlying warmth he gets from the burrow ( that was in the love potion afterall) is why H/G's relationship has that level of importance above snogging, love. And I do not think that this is all speculation. I think that it made sense to JKR. I think that she balanced the Dursleys with the Weasleys for a reason and not just 'this is my bff's family' but this is the life I never had. As for not liking Ginny for Harry that is where the mom in me comes in. The mom would say "Oh Harry that Hermione is so perfect for you, she is smart, your intellectual and magical equal etc., etc.," and my son would say back "But mom, she is my friend, she doesn't excite me in that way, I want the fun girl who gets my blood pumping" (Hey, I actually think I have had that conversation before.) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 15:12:10 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:12:10 -0000 Subject: "Magic always leaves traces..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135910 > Jen wrote: > "It also struck me that he (Dumbledore) refers to the cave as > Riddle's style, not Voldemort's. Either Dumbledore is once again > refusing to acknowledge who Riddle has become, or he literally > means Riddle placed the locket in the cave as far back as the > murder of Hepzibah Smith. There are moments in the cave when he > says 'Voldemort', but in that particular instance he refers to > Riddle." Tina: > Funny, I didn't read it that way. Actually, one of the things I > liked most in HBP (and unfortunately, I didn't like the book all > that much) is how it shows how and why Tom Riddle becomes > Voldemort, and it explains the reason why Dumbledore calls > him "Tom" when they're fighting at the Ministry in OotP. I used to > see it as simply Dumbledore's way to taunt Voldemort, but now it > seems there's more to it: Voldemort *is* Tom Riddle, and did not > become something completely different. Voldemort *tried* to become > something completely different, but failed to do so. Jen: I did like Dumbledore's explanation that Voldemort would always be 'Tom' to him because he was a former student. I think there's a little more to it, though. Not that Dumbledore is taunting Voldemort by calling him Tom, but he *is* pulling a power play in his office when Voldemort requests the teaching position. Reminding him that at least one person out there is still holding a memory of Tom Riddle and therefore, Voldemort cannot completely extinguish his past. As for the cave, I've decided it probably was just another instance of DD remembering student-Tom while examining his work. > SSSusan: > "For surely as Riddle matured & deepened his talents, his > schemes & protections would have increased in complexity?" > Tina: > Increased in complexity, certainly, but wouldn't change. Looking > from this point of view, we can say that Voldemort's schemes and > actions are boringly predictable (to Dumbledore, at least). If > not, then Dumbledore's lessons wouldn't be of much use, would > they? Dumbledore trusts that Tom's old fears and desires will > always determine how today's Tom will act. Jen: As Tina mentioned, I also found the most intriguing part of HBP was the evolution of Riddle into Voldemort. The nature/nurture debate definitely comes into play here, and infortunately for Riddle, he got the worst of both. Born to a "very ancient Wizarding family noted for a vein of instability and violence that flourished through the generations due to their habit of marrying cousins." (chap. 10, p. 212); Tom may look like his Dad, but he got his magical power and other erm, *distinguishing* characteristics from the Gaunts. The characteristics of his magical ability however, spring from his nurturing, or lack thereof--fear, abandonment, the associated coping skills Riddle adopted like isolating himself and craving power. Dumbledore understands his pattern like no other, after all, he got to see it firsthand as early as age 11 before Riddle became completely duplicitous. > Jen wrote: > "The big question is, did Harry learn enough in the cave to > recognize and defeat Voldemort's obstacles surrounding the > remaining Horcruxes? > SSSusan: > This is where I don't feel good about things at all. I'm sure > Harry learned a lot from the pensieve episodes with DD. I'm sure > he learned important things from DD in the cave. But HOW DID DD > *DO* ALL THAT in the cave? He just... felt things... sensed > things... just "knew." That is stuff one cannot teach, really, > and I suspect Harry was stunned & bewildered by DD's ability to do > that just as we were. > Me (tina): > I think Harry didn't learn much in the cave ? the cave was > more of an example of everything Dumbledore had told him in their > lessons. But I do share your concern on another thing: is Harry > skilled enough to face Voldemort's obstacles? What Dumbledore was > doing seemed extremely tricky to me ? he was recognizing every bit > of magic Voldemort had set, and they didn't seem as "fun" ? or > as relatively harmless - as the tasks in PS. Jen: Likewise, I don't think you can teach Harry's ability to fly by the seat of his pants! But he'll *have* to have the help of his friends. JKR told us Dumbledore isolated himself as the price for being the greatest wizard of his time. I think the reason he harps on Harry's ability to love is because he realizes Harry's strength is both his ability to draw others near AND allowing them to help--a trait neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort share. Jen From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 15:39:50 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:39:50 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135911 "hickengruendler" wrote: > in this case the sacrifice makes sense, because > otherwise Snape would have died as well > (see the Unbreakable Vow). But it's clear that Dumbledore did not know about that Unbreakable vow: Draco said " He [Snape] hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother_" Dumbledore replied "Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but_" But we readers of Chapter 2 know Draco was right and Dumbledore was wrong. Not only did Snape promise to aid Draco in his task of smuggling Death Eaters into Hogwarts he even made an unbreakable vow. Even without that dialogue we could have guessed Dumbledore did not know, to trust somebody who you knew had made a vow like that would be insane. > it's possible that Snape bluffed in front > of Bellatrix and Narcissa, and that he > didn't know what exactly Draco's task > was until later. So Snape made an Unbreakable vow to help Draco in his task when he didn't even know what that task was? That's crazy. > I think Dumbledore did not want > Harry to see it [his death]. Probably not, but he must have know there was a possibility, and even if he didn't see it there was a virtual certainty Snape would be implicated in the murder. If Dumbledore had told Harry that he had some sort of convoluted plan that involved Snape killing him I'm sure Harry would not approve, but at least he wouldn't spend the rest of his life seeking revenge on Severus Snape which is certainly the case now. If Snape is really a good guy then Dumbledore has set things in motion in such a way that 2 good guys are going to do everything in their power to kill each other. And that seems like a rather cruel prank to play on Harry, and Snape too. > Dumbledore also told Harry, that he knows > much more than Harry thinks. Perhaps, but Harry also knows much more than Dumbledore thinks. Harry repeatedly told Dumbledore and others that Draco was doing something sinister in the Room of Requirements but was ignored by all. Eggplant From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 15:44:22 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:44:22 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's death: literary styles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135912 I was going to refrain from sending this, but in light of certain things I've observed in fandom, I think the members of this list will enjoy it. The following "article" is a contest that the Guardian held at the beginning of July. Basically, it is the writing of Dumbledore's death in various famous authors' styles. So if you're still having trouble coping with the death of Dumbledore, maybe the following article will help you cope. :) http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1521060,00.html ~Ali, who still thinks JKR is a good writer despite the HBP "romances" From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 15:49:01 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:49:01 -0000 Subject: Why was Snape teaching DADA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135913 anuja wrote: > I am not sure why we saw Snape teachind DADA this year.Is it: > 1.because Dumbledore finally tusts him so much that he thinks it wont > do any harm > 2.because he cant (yet again)find a DADA teacher but knows he can > find > another one for potions.so after getting a new teacher for potions he > had no choice but to let Snape teach DADA? > 3.or because he always intended to get the memory from Slughorn and > so > needed him at Hogwarts? > > Anuja. Tammy now: Or is it: 4. Snape told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow, that bonded him to either help Draco kill Dumbledore, kill Dumbledore himself, or to die. Seeing as how Dumbledore knows Snape will be dead or gone by the end of the year (I agree with the Dumbledore-made-Snape-kill-him-to-get-in-with-Voldemort camp) and therefore granted Snape's last wish - to teach DADA. It shows LV that Dumbledore trusts Snape completely at last (meaning Snape has done his job well), and gets Sluggy to Hogwarts to teach the last memory. -Tammy, who wonders if the popular Dumbledore-Snape theory has a name yet? From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 1 15:54:42 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:54:42 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135914 Sigune: If Voldemort really > feels he can rely on Snape, would he send Peter Pettigrew, the Rat > Who Listens At Doors, to Spinner's End? Snape may well say > Wormtail > is there to assist him; the truth is that he is being watched in his > own house. Potioncat: My first reaction was, which one is being punished? It can't be enjoyable for either one; even if Snape does appear to have the upper hand. Sigune: > Unbreakable Vow? > > The Unbreakable Vow is the kind of narrative device that alerts the > reader of fairy tales to impending doom. Remember Beauty and the > Beast, Rumpelstiltkin and many other stories... Potioncat: I find this to be an interesting point. Before the book came out, the name "Spinner's End" brought to mind all the magic stories aobut spinning; Rumpelstitkin and Sleeping Beauty among them. Aunt Nancy came to mind too, but that is an African-American tale. (Aunt Nancy is Ananzi the spider.) And I wonder if it has anything to do with Eileen and Tobias as well, as a parallel back story. Sigune: > I have to admit that it is perhaps a bit unfair calling Snape > na?ve. > I don't think he is. It is just that he has allowed himself to be > seduced by the admittedly formidable combined forces of the Black > sisters, which wouldn't have worked with *me* - I'm > impervious to > female charm :o). Potioncat: Although I now believe Narcissa was playing Snape, when I first read it I thought Snape was also playing Narcissa. But, inspite of what many readers may privately imagine; Narcissa would much more skilled at this sort of playing than Snape would. She would have had much more practice at it. You've made a very good point, Snape likely lost control in this situation. Sigune: > When she slips in her third clause it is too late for Snape to do > anything else than twitch and endure. He is forced to condemn himself > three times. Potioncat: Yeah, sure looks that way. This bad boy fell for the bad girl. But Snape, unlike most wizards, has a strong logical streak. He was treating this Unbreakable Vow like a logic puzzle. I suspect he'd used Legilimency to get an idea of what Narcissa was up to. It appears she may be more skilled at Occlumency than he ever imagined. Even months later, he thinks it is Bellatrix who is teaching Draco. For someone used to risking his life all the time, playing with such a dangerous puzzle wouldn't be too out of the ordinary. And even the third clause has some fudge room. He was broadsided (no pun intended) by the third condition, but he thought he could work around it. >Sigune: > Part the Second: Black Wizard, White Wizard ? or, > Dumbledore's Fatal > Mistake > ____________________________________________________________________ > He is ashamed of having been tricked like a novice. He has made an > elementary mistake; and where in canon have we ever caught Snape > admitting a mistake? Dumbledore, yes. Sirius, yes. Remus, yes. Snape? > No way. He makes errors and he is aware of them, but he does not > admit them. He tries to solve his problems on his own, in silence. Potioncat: This is another point that I didn't think of, but which fits the Snape we know. There is certainly canon backup that indicates that Snape often goes off on his own. DD never seemed to be part of the Snape/Quirrell battle. Sigune: If Dumbledore knew the full terms of > the Vow, would he ask the impossible of Snape? I don't think he > has > any idea about the extent to which Snape is bound. > snip Snape's mind is destined > for > greatness, but the rest of him isn't, and Dumbledore is > constantly > demanding everything, kindly for starters, and firmly if kindness > does not yield the desired result. snip I do not believe in some pre-arranged plan to stage, > or otherwise effect, Dumbledore's death, if only because I cannot > see > what the use of that would be. Potioncat: Well, I thought perhaps the two had discussed the entire Vow, and worked out some different scenarios. But you make some very strong points. The one place I might quibble, is whether DD knows. He could well know even if Snape hadn't told him. It's always hard to determine what DD knows. Now, let's say Snape never told him, but DD picked it up through Legilimency. For that matter, DD knows Narcissa; knows Snape; and probably knows something about Unbreakable Vows. What would DD do? He would know that if the situation with Draco came to some sort of head, Snape would be conflicted. DD would no more want to be murdered by Snape than by Draco, but he would not want either of them to die either. I think Snape was hoping to buy enough time to avoid the situation at all, and DD had some plans of his own. He never approached Draco, because he didn't want LV to know that DD knew. DD didn't want Snape to know either. Sigune: > The implications of my assumptions suggest this scenario for the > fateful night: > > Dumbledore goes Horcrux-hunting with Harry, fully expecting to incur > damage just like the first time with the ring; but he counts on being > healed in time by his Dark Arts expert, who also saved him the first > time. He will send Harry for Snape when he arrives back at Hogwarts. Potioncat: I think DD put Snape into some sort of trance or put him to sleep. DD knows where Snape is and that he's asleep, although other Order Members are partrolling the halls. For Snape to be asleep at this time seems very out of character. Oops, I snipped too much. I also think DD was planning to return to the castle where Snape would be able to treat his injuries. The Dark Mark and DEs were a surprise. Sigune: Snape does some quick thinking and sees that there > are two options. > > 1) He openly declares his allegiance to Dumbledore. > > Result: the Order is one leader and one spy short and a young life is > destroyed in a pointless battle. > > 2) He kills Dumbledore. > Result: By sacrificing the already lost life of a dying 150-year- old > wizard, he saves a sixteen-year-old (buying him time to think things > over), himself, and safeguards one of the Order's most significant > pawns in the coming confrontation with the Dark Lord. Drawback is > that nobody trusts him anymore; but judging by people's reactions, > nobody except Dumbledore and Hagrid did trust him to begin with. Potioncat: He gazes at DD. DD who had just told Draco that Draco is dependent on his mercies. DD who would rather sacrifice himself at this point than lose Snape and Draco. (Snape I can understand, DD's concern for Draco is more merciful than I can imagine.) DD would save himself over Snape if he was well and able to continue the fight but he seems to be near death. If Snape dies, so does DD. I think there is some communication between DD and Snape at this point. DD sacrifices himself just like Ron did in the chess game. Just as Ron tells Harry and Hermione what moves they must make after the Knight is taken, I think DD has told Snape to make certain moves after the Rook( castle) is taken > >Sigune: > The look Snape and Dumbledore exchange on the battlement is to me the > most chilling moment of Half-Blood Prince. If my assumption is > correct and Snape has kept the third clause of the Unbreakable Vow > from Dumbledore, then those few seconds are even more heart- breaking > than I found them at first sight. When Dumbledore whispers > "Severus > please " he is not pleading for his life, because he is not > afraid > to die; neither is he asking Snape to kill him as arranged, because > there was no such arrangement. What he means is, "please > don't tell > me I was wrong about you all the time ? that I have confided in > you > when you were not worthy of my faith ? that I have defended you > against others when they were right in their suspicions." Potioncat: If you are right, this is the most heartbreaking scene. However, I hope it is that Snape has been manipulated once again, and DD has set it up so that Snape's act will have some further meaning and will be shown to be to the Order's advantage. It appeared to be very important to DD that Draco not commit murder. I can't understand why DD would want Snape to perform an AK either, unless this is another sacrifice. Better for Snape to perform one more black deed than for Draco to commit the first one. I don't want to pull in the discussion on whether Snape really performed an AK in this post, but I will add this. DD died with a peaceful expression on his face. He knew he was about to die, he spoke to Severus, then he was hit by a spell and fell(drifted?) off the tower. I don't think being murdered or falling to your death would leave a peaceful expression. What ever Snape did, AK or Impedimenta or something else, it was what DD wanted. He was at peace. DD saw his own death as a necessary event in the battle. And I think he saw it as a wise move. In summary...I agree with much of Sigune's post. It certainly fits Snape's personality that he wouldn't tell DD; and he isn't destined for greatness in spite of his mind. But I think DD had an idea of what was going on and had made his own plans for different scenarios. Potioncat who asks readers to excuse the fragmented nature of this post: young one is board and has been patient far longer than could be expected. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 15:57:25 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Emotions (was: many replies to many posts from many people, ALL SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801155725.1586.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135915 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Juli wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134624 of sociopaths and young Tom M. Riddle: << They appear to be *incapable of any true emotions*, from love to shame to guilt. >> What about resentment, anger, and hatred? Tom certainly has shown those, and I think they're emotions. Juli again: Yes, he shows those "negative" emotions, but how about positive emotions? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 16:02:00 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:02:00 -0000 Subject: Why was Snape teaching DADA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135916 anujaasathe: > 3.or because he always intended to get the memory from Slughorn and > so needed him at Hogwarts? I think we have a winner. Dumbledore *needed* that memory. I think he moved Snape to the DADA position despite his own reservations in order to be able to confront a reluctant Slughorn with Lily Evans' son. Amiable Dorsai From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 1 16:10:35 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:10:35 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "hickengruendler" wrote: > > > in this case the sacrifice makes sense, because > > otherwise Snape would have died as well > > (see the Unbreakable Vow). > > But it's clear that Dumbledore did not know about that Unbreakable vow: > > Draco said " He [Snape] hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my > mother_" > Dumbledore replied "Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but_" > Hickengruendler: Yeah, "but". "But" can a mean a lot in this scene. It could mean: "But he didn't promise her anything" in which case your interpretation is correct. It could also mean: "Of course that is what he would tell you. But he was doing my orders, and already told me about the promise he made your mother". The but can be an answer about Draco's statement that Snape promised his mother to held you, and it could also be an answer about Draco's statement, that Snape wasn't following Dumbledore's orders. Each interpretation is as valid as the other. Also, don't forget that we still don't know why Dumbledore trusted Snape. Surely the off-hand "explanation" from Dumbledore can't have been the whole thing, because it would be really lame and would make Dumbledore look really stupid. And as long as this information is still out in the open, I do not think that we are in the position to really judge on which side Snape is. Also, JKR is the mistress' of red-herrings and plot twists. If Snape were truly as evil as he currently seems to be, I don't think we would already have known this in chapter 2 of HBP. If he were on Voldemort's, than why did he tell Dumbledore, that the Dark Mark was becoming clearer again in GoF? From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 16:14:45 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:14:45 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135918 zgirnius: Oh, *wonderful* post. This is in outline what I have been betting really happened in Book 6. Some comments... "severelysigune" wrote: > The Unbreakable Vow is the kind of narrative device that alerts the > reader of fairy tales to impending doom. zgirnius: *Yes*, very well put! severelysigune again: > Although he had not originally agreed to it, he has magically pledged > himself to kill Albus Dumbledore. Dear dear, he is in deep ? you > know. zgirnius: This is one point I see differently. I do not believe that at this point Snape knows *what* he has committed himslef to. Like, you , I saw Snape's actions as being influenced/motivated by Cissy and Bella's good cop/bad cop routine, btu I did not think that was *all* there was to the scene. My suspicion is that Snape did not know what the mission was, and a major reason Snape worked to gain Cissy's trust was to learn this secret. He pretended he did know as part of a ploy to worm some details out which would allow him to figure it out. (The language used by both Cissy and Bella to describe this task would get any spy interested.) So I think Snape is at this point commmitted to carry out a mission, and he doesn't even know what it is. Whichever of us is right, I entirely agree that he did not go running to DD with the whole story...at the very least he would want to figure out first what it is that he had just committed himself to do. I'm not sure if he knows already at the Christmas party conversation with Draco...in factm he may be hoping that his disclosure to Draco about the UV will cause Draco to confide in him. severelysigune again: > No doubt it helped > him perform a convincing Killing Curse. zgirnius: There has been a lot written (in numerous posts) about that AK of Snape's...it differs some from other AKs we have seen in its immediate effect (blasting DD into the air instead of just dropping him where he stood) and in the appearance of its victim after the death (eyes closed, peaceful expression). I don't think, though, that this has to mean the death was prearranged. One possilibity is that this could be how a failed AK acts. We've never been shown one which hit the target but *failed* before. We know this can happen with other Unfrogivables, as for example when Harry tries to Crucio Bella in OotP. Alternatively, Snape might have considered the possibility of failure and used a nonverbal spell to cause a flash of green light and throw DD off the tower, speaking the words Avada Kedavra for the benefit of the watching DEs. Finally, it could just be how Snape's AKs work, as apposed to LV's or Pettigrew's. severely sigune again: > Severus Snape will not be on the side of the Dark forces in Book 7. > But, I fear, despite his essential allegiance to Dumbledore he is > highly unlikely to survive Book 7 ? the story's logic may > well demand his demise for killing the thing he loves. zgirnius: That's how I see it too. (Though he will alomst certainly be *at* their side!) But he's certainly in a position to do very interesting things in Book 7. I can hardly wait to see how this all plays out! Finally, I snipped the entire analysis of Snape's possible actions on the tower and their likely consequences, which was given earlier in your post. I have nothing to add. This was the *best* part of the post, as far as I am concerned! Very clear, very logical. I can so see this running through Snape's head in that long moment after he's taken in the situation, and before he acts. From ellydan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 16:19:23 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801161923.55821.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135919 --- templar1112002 wrote: > > Rizza wrote: > > "I don't understand why so many readers are so > dissatisfied with > the Harry/Ginny relationship. I guess one of the > biggest reasons I > don't have a problem with it is because it allows me > to use my > imagination." > > > > Del replies: > > And that's precisely why I have a problem with it: > because it is > left entirely to our imagination. But our > imagination is not > necessarily in line with JKR's intention. For > example, what in HBP > prevents me from imagining an abusive relationship > between those > two? What prevents me from imagining that Ginny is > simply secretly > feeding Love Potion to Harry? What prevents me from > imagining that > Ginny was hugely disappointed with what a romance > with Harry really > looks like, after dreaming of it for so many years, > that she was > actually relieved when Harry broke up with her, and > that this is the > true reason she let him go so easily? > > > > Those who want to imagine a perfectly happy H/G > romance can. But > those who either don't want to, can't, or don't care > to, have no > reason to agree that this romance is so beautiful. > There is no canon > either way, so nobody's right, and nobody's wrong. > The romance > between Harry and Ginny might as well not exist, it > would be better > than this undefined unknown. > > > > Those books are JKR's books. It is HER job to tell > us what happens > in them. If I want to invent my own version of HP, > I'll start writing > fanfiction. If I want to see how other fans view the > H/G romance, > I'll start reading fanfiction. But when I buy the > genuine thing > (with very real money too), I want the genuine > version of the > author. So when JKR writes that there's a romance > going on between > her hero and the girl she always destined for him, I > want HER to > tell me what's going on. > > It's HER JOB. > > > > **Marcela now: Here posting a link for your > "enlightening", H/G > ship for Dummies. Have a laugh, :D > > http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2496472/1/ > > Marcela > Thanks for the link Marcela, I did laugh. I'm only going to reiterate what others have said in this post and in Harry vs. Ginny posts. That it is one thing to leave hints and write out Harry was used to Ginny being around during the summer. What we are asking for is for JK to write out those scenes during the summer. I don't want to be told that Ginny is witty and funny and the darling of the Quidditch team. I want there to be a scene where we hear one of these jokes from her lips and we laugh along with the team. For example, when we have Luna commentating the Quidditch match we can see that she is dreamy, a bit spacey and unintentionally funny because we are experiencing her comments along with Harry. Instead of an aside, that runs something like Ginny mocks and imitates her brother - cue laughter. If we are to care for this character she needs to become more than an abstract idea for us. The only way an author can do that is by bringing the character to the page for us and allowing us to meet them by hearing their words, watching them interact with others, seeing them react. IMO, we are not given enough time to care for this character more than beyond an abstraction (Ron's little sister, Harry's girlfriend). We are not given the opportunity to care for Ginny for her own qualities. For her to be such an important character to Harry, I think there needs to be a ratio of more time devoted to her in the book. It's not an issue of not liking Ginny. It's an issue of not knowing Ginny. It's poor writing to say Ginny's a clever, powerful witch. It's better writing to have us witness moments of her brilliance, to see her perform the bat bogey hex (and hopefully more than just the one hex at that.) And as for filling in with your imagination, of course that is fun as a fan. But isn't it better to have moments to reflect on and reread. A moment perhaps when Harry takes Ginny out by the lake and he blushes and rubs his head recalling how he never thought of her as more than just Ron's little sister before this year. Ginny replies perhaps with a wry turn of her mouth that she's certainly thought of him as more than an older brother. They recall a moment at the Burrow where he notices something nice about her and she replies in kind. If that would have happened, I think I might have softened my opinion of Ginny a great deal. But it didn't. That isn't to say that I don't like HBP. If you were to subtract how that little piece of the plot was handled, I would say I liked the book overall better than GOF. It's just that little bit of incompleteness that leaves me somewhat dissatisfied. Humbly submitted as just my opinion Ellyddan ps If I were to ship H/G, I would be disappointed and want to demand more time for the characters to interact. Ginny deserves her own amount of shine time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 1 17:06:01 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:06:01 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incidentg In-Reply-To: <20050801124657.41783.qmail@web32710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > Steve wrote: > > So, I'm not absolving anyone of any guilt. Sirius made a young > implusive and dangerous choice, and so did Snape. There is no > indication that Sirius truly intended Snape to be killed. He was > certainly short sighted, rash, and irresponsible, but we don't know > for a fact that his intent was for Snape to be killed. Likely, he > never thought that far ahead; impulsive headstrong teens are not know for being farsighted. So they are all quilty, and I'm sure they were all punished. Certainly not punished in the way Snape wanted, but punished none the less. > > Just trying to keep things in perspective. > > > Lynn: > > Perspective? We have to keep things in perspective? Well, that takes all the fun out of it LOL > > I agree with all you said Steve with an addition. We know that Madame Pomfrey takes Lupin over. For Snape to know where/wonder why Lupin goes there, he had to have seen Madam Pomfrey and know that whatever was happening was sanctioned by the administration. > > Let's face it, Snape isn't stupid and he had to have had a pretty good idea that whatever was happening, if he hadn't figured it out already, had to be very serious for Madam Pomfrey to take Lupin secretly away from the castle. > > Sirius tells us that Snape kept trying to get the Maurauders expelled. My impression is that Snape probably had a good idea what was happening to Lupin and just wanted proof. After all, it is a bit of a coincidence that a shack becomes haunted - once a month - a new tree is planted that hits those who come near it and now Madam Pomfrey is escorting a student through that tree every month. Hmmmm, for someone like Snape, intent on being nosy, it's a pretty good bet he had some idea of what was going on. After all, we know from the pensieve scene that he had overheard the Mauraders talking about Lupin being a werewolf. > but what Sirius did was a crime - something that should have gotten him expelled. Even Lupin, in PoA, stated..."Well, of course, Snape tried it - if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf - but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life...Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden by Dumbledore to tell anyone, but from that time on he knew what I was..." so, Snape COULD have been killed or turned into a werewolf. And James's life was in great danger too, of either being killed or turned. What Sirius did was inexcusable - despite Snape trying to get them expelled, there is nothing in the books that has Snape trying to kill any of his classmates in school. Why DD didn't expell him, I don't know... colebiancardi From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 1 17:23:37 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:23:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Ironclad reason for trusting Snape (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > Julie: > > Obviously Snape expressing remorse about revealing the prophecy > > to Voldemort isn't even close to an ironclad reason for trusting > him. > > Ironclad implies virtually no doubt exists. It implies that it's > not a > > matter of Dumbledore simply taking Snape at his word, but that > > Snape would have so much to lose if he betrayed Dumbledore, > > there's virtually no chance it will happen. > > oiboyz: > Couldn't agree more; the ironclad reason *can't* be just that > Snape felt bad about the prophecy. DD's not just taking the risk for > himself; he's put Snape in a position, both at Hogwarts and in the > Order, to harm Harry and betray everyone. I don't think even DD > would do that based just on a feeling that Snape's on the level. He > must have had some other reason, which will be revealed in Book 7 and > change the minds of all those who are now convinced that Snape is > ESE! :) I still think that there is more than Snape *feeling* bad about telling Voldy about the prophecy as well. Snape just turning to the *good* side has to more than this Lily theory, IMHO. That does not involve "great personal risk" on Snape's part. I still think it has something to do with Regulus & the fact that Snape & Regulus were in the same house together, as well as being fellow DE's at the same. Regulus's body was never found and he was *killed* by Voldemort or another DE. The *love-sick* Snape theory is older than the hills, and there is no real basis for it, other than Lily is the only female mentioned during their time at Hogwarts. That's like saying that everyone was in love with Ginny at Hogwarts - which I am sure there are a few people who aren't :) If you are interested, please read what I call the Regulus Theory and others who have added to this theory in the thread. There JUST has to be more to Snape turning than *sappy Snape* - not at all in his character and I do not believe there is anything in the books that supports the theory that Snape, underall his nastiness, is a kind, gentle soul who just wants to be loved by the prettest girl in school.....call me a cynic, but that makes me retch slugs. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135368 > there is a link in it that points to why the reason why Snape turned > *good* and the key is....Regulus > > original theory link: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 also, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135710 has more posters responding with thoughts.... colebiancardi From andie1 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 17:39:58 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:39:58 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135924 > > delwynmarch wrote: > > am asking for is "show me where it says that the *romance* between > > Harry and Ginny is such a great thing". Okay, Harry and Ginny, the romance... I don't see why we need to SEE exactly what happens between Harry and Ginny. After all, in mature relationships, normally the intimate moments are not completely shown to others. It's what is not seen that builds the intimacy between people. With that being said, we have to remember that HP is a children's series as well. JK cannot possibly write the juicy details for us when children are reading! The younger readers would be completely turned off by too much of the overt romance. I think she did a PERFECT job with the Harry/Ginny relationship. She gave enough details for the older readers to be able to "read between the lines" while allowing some things to possibly go over the heads of the younger readers. What I see is a truly mature relationship between H/G. My evidence is as follows: 1. Eyeball messages... You mentioned that Harry has this connection with Ron and Hermione. Yes, he does; however, up until this point he had not had that kind of a connection with a romantic interest. This is significant. 2. The first kiss and the (who knows how long) walk around the grounds afterwards. Can't we GUESS what is happening between them? We don't need to be shown that part. It just isn't necessary. 3. Harry daydreams about other times that he spent with Ginny by the lake. This lends the reader to believe that they are able to spend time together canoodling. 4. The mention of "less time together" when Ginny is studying for her OWLS. This makes me think that they had been spending much time together. 5. Ginny leaning against Harry's legs and relaxing. This shows true comfort and intimacy. Could you see Harry and Cho doing this!? I think not! Their relationship is progressing because they are becoming more and more comfortable being together this way. 6. Harry being yelled at by Hermione for "distracting" Ginny while she was studying. Personally, I can picture him coming over and moving her hair out of the way... kissing her neck. This is the beauty of the writing. It can be anything that each of us finds romantic. Kind of a fill in the romantic gesture. 7. Ginny kissing Harry goodnight. It is mentioned casually which leads me to believe that again, they are very intimate and comfortable with each other. 8. Ginny is the only one that can lead Harry away from the body. He doesn't even know it is her until later. 9. Ginny keeps nudging Harry during the funeral, showing a connections between the two. 10. Harry includes Ginny in thoughts and conversations that would normally be reserved for only Hermione and Ron. I see this as a true, real, intimate, wonderful relationship. I was so excited to see that Harry was capable of such a relationship after all the pain he has experienced in his life. This is yet another example showing how our hero can LOVE! I think it was done perfectly. I'm sure that we will need to agree to disagree! :) grindieloe From lebiles at charter.net Mon Aug 1 17:44:23 2005 From: lebiles at charter.net (leb2323) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:44:23 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > What do we learn in this chapter? I think one of the most important things that we learned is that not all of the people who are on the side of LV are completely and blindly following him. There is dissension in the ranks. leb From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 1 17:55:10 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:55:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > > > > delwynmarch wrote: > > > am asking for is "show me where it says that the *romance* > between > > > Harry and Ginny is such a great thing". > > > > Okay, Harry and Ginny, the romance... I don't see why we need to SEE > exactly what happens between Harry and Ginny. After all, in mature > relationships, normally the intimate moments are not completely > shown to others. It's what is not seen that builds the intimacy > between people. With that being said, we have to remember that HP > is a children's series as well. JK cannot possibly write the juicy > details for us when children are reading! Hickengruendler: This is already my fourth post today and I promise it will be my last, but I want to adress this, because I now already saw this in at least three posts. I don't think what delwynmarch means is, that we should see some "juicy details" about Harry and Ginny or any implication that they had sex. Personally, I don't care at all if they had or hadn't, neither, I think, did anyone else, who was disappointed with the way H/G was written. At least I can't remember anyone raising this topic. What I, and I think also delwynmarch wanted to see is *interaction*. We want to see *why* those weeks were among the best in Harry's life, and I do not think that is asked for too much. How do Harry and Ginny as a couple spent their time? What makes their relationship so special? This has nothing with sex or any juicy details. I also don't think we needed to see a detailed account of everything they did during their time together. Just one scene that shows why exactly Ginny is that special for Harry. What I see through their scenes is that Harry lusted after Ginny because she's hot, and that Ginny still had the crush on the Boy Who Lived instead of Harry, because she never gave up on him in the first place. The question if Ginny had or hadn't seen his naked chest is completely irrelevant for me, because even she has, it would not have made this relationship in any way deeper necessarily. And the arguments that these aren't romance novels doesn't really convince me, since we spent much more screentime for the Harry/Cho couple, and since Harry Potter is also a coming-of-age story, even if the romance only plays second fiddle. Hickengruendler From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 18:18:24 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:18:24 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > wrote: > > > What do we learn in this chapter? > > I think one of the most important things that we learned is that not > all of the people who are on the side of LV are completely and blindly > following him. There is dissension in the ranks. > leb It's hardly such big news. We've been told exactly that when the topic of DE was first introduced in GoF, and LV himself appeared to have had very few illusions as to his followers loyalty and reliability at the end of GoF. Not that he cares. He clearly values usefulness well over loyalty. a_svirn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 1 18:40:20 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:40:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not References: <1122841097.3118.7275.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c596c8$79cf9500$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 135929 nocobuzz wrote: >Actually, I think you could make an argument that he is still >working for DD and the Order in every scene in which he appears. Of >course, some very strong arguments for Snape being a true DE can be >made for most of these scenes also. Which I'm sure was quite intentional! There's enough material (and not just in HBP) to support either side of the argument until we find out the truth. >part to the Unbreakable Vow. He must have already known that LV had >tasked Draco with killing DD and, I believe, he had already reported >this to DD. Apparently nobody knew of Draco's plan to use the two- I wonder if, knowing that the post was jinxed and his tenure wouldn't last more than a year, that was why Dumbledore finally gave in and let Snape have the DADA post at last. By the end of the year, he would either be dead or a fugitive and that was known from the outset. I don't think that conversation would have been a comfortable one for either man. >Again, the dueling scene just confirms that Snape is still faithful >to DD. At the very least, he had a number of chances to kill Harry >(which would certainly please LV, no matter what Snape said to the >contrary) and not only didn't do it but prevented anyone else from >doing so. I think that makes the 4th time that Snape has saved Harry's life. If he was really ESE, he would have killed Flitwick. He would have killed again on his way to the tower (possibly Hermione and Luna) and he would have captured Harry and taken him off to Voldemort. Let's face it, Harry must have fancied himself as a bit of a duellist after the Ministry fight but Snape wiped the floor with him. >I honestly we will learn that Snape has been working for DD since he >turned from the Dark Lord and, although he is a pretty nasty person, >is ultimately good. Interesting to speculate how Harry will find this out. I wonder if the final book will see Harry captive at some point. And maybe Rat Boy will be the one to spill the beans on Snape, not just the Unbreakable Vow, but the Godric's Hollow end as well. But JKR alone knows all hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 1 18:45:05 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:45:05 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > Okay, Harry and Ginny, the romance... I don't see why we need to SEE > exactly what happens between Harry and Ginny. After all, in mature > relationships, normally the intimate moments are not completely > shown to others. I don't have a problem with JKR leaving the details off, I thought that was done well considering the target audience (heck my 17 year old son *still* hates romance in movies/books... :-)). I always believed that JKR was leading to a H/G relationship (though did not see why until OoP). I feel however that she pushed that too abruptly after ignoring that important development for too long. We saw no character development for Ginny from the blushing lovestruck little girl in books 1 and 2. She was hardly mentioned in book 3, made a cameo appearance (in line with her early personality) in book 4, when suddenly she appears in OoP as this beautiful, confident, smart, funny , good athlete girl who can get any boy she wants (after not being able to find anyone to invite her to the Yule Ball in book 4, except Neville, I might add...). I could see Harry falling in love with her then, I just wished that we would see the beginning of this change in Ginny in book 4 - I think it would have made more sense. After all, the change in Neville was done very well through the books - why not develop Ginny better? > I see this as a true, real, intimate, wonderful relationship. I was > so excited to see that Harry was capable of such a relationship > after all the pain he has experienced in his life. This is yet > another example showing how our hero can LOVE! I did not like the ending of it with him acting the typical fairy tail hero of protecting his girl and leaving her behind while going off to save the world, then presumably coming back in glory for the prize. I never liked the idea so common in fantasy and fairy tails of the beautiful girl being left at home as a trophy for the victorious hero. It makes even less sense here when she actively participated in many of his struggles and Harry has no compunction letting R+H risk their life. But I don't believe that Ginny will just quietly acquiese - however poor her previous character development, having her meekly stay behind does not fit her current personality. She will be there along with H+R. If love is the power that Harry will use to win, then he'll need all he can get of it... Besides - one of the things I like in the HP novels is the fact that the females are as powerful and prominent as the males (well, almost, we don't see the female equivalents of LV, DD or HP) and I would not want JKR to ruin that in the finale... Salit From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 18:46:22 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:46:22 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135931 >From HBP: " Draco said " He [Snape] hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother_" Dumbledore replied "Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but_" hickengruendler" wrote: > Yeah, "but". > "But" can a mean a lot in this scene. > It could mean: "But he didn't > promise her anything" Snape vowed to finish Draco's task if the boy was unable to do so, and that is most definitely something. > It could also mean: "Of course that > is what he would tell you. But he > was doing my orders Now we're getting even wilder, now not only Snape but Dumbledore too is guilty of conspiring to sneak Death Eaters into Hogwarts. I don't think so. > Also, don't forget that we still > don't know why Dumbledore trusted > Snape. I have a theory about that, I think Dumbledore correctly deduced that Snape Hates Voldemort, and I think Dumbledore deduced that Snape was sincerely sorry the Potters were dead but such was Snape's vast skill at Occlumency Dumbledore didn't realize his sorry was entirely due to Lilly's death (the had a romantic affair in their 6th year) not James. Dumbledore also correctly deduced that Snape was very glad Harry survived the attack, in fact I think Snape made an unbreakable vow to Dumbledore that he would do everything in his power to kill Voldemort and to protect Harry Potter's life until the Dark Lord is defeated. All this convinced Dumbledore that Snape was on his side but he is not. Snape wants to rule the wizard world but 2 wizards stand in his way. Snape killed one of them at the end of book 6 and he needs Harry alive and healthy to kill the other in book 7. Sure you can make all sorts of bizarre theories excusing Snape's actions and turning him into a hero, you could turn Voldemort or Umbrage into a hero too but to my ear the explanations would sound just as contrived and unlikely. > If Snape were truly as evil as he > currently seems to be, I don't > think we would already have > known this in chapter 2 of HBP. Why not? I'm a long time Snape hater, I've seen him do rotten things for 6 books and in chapter 2 I saw him actually conspiring with Death Eaters, and yet Rowling is so skillful it was still a huge shock to me when Snape killed Dumbledore. Rowling came right out in chapter 2 and told us what she intended to do but we just didn't believe her. I don't think chapter 2 spoiled the surprise for anyone. > If he were on Voldemort's, than > why did he tell Dumbledore, that > the Dark Mark was becoming > clearer again in GoF? Snape told Dumbledore nothing he didn't already know, and Snape is not on Voldemort's side, he's on Snape's side. Eggplant From lsease at innernet.net Mon Aug 1 18:47:37 2005 From: lsease at innernet.net (simbananacat) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:47:37 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > > > wrote: > > > > > What do we learn in this chapter? > > > > I think one of the most important things that we learned is that not > > all of the people who are on the side of LV are completely and > blindly > > following him. There is dissension in the ranks. > > leb > > It's hardly such big news. We've been told exactly that when the topic > of DE was first introduced in GoF, and LV himself appeared to have had > very few illusions as to his followers loyalty and reliability at the > end of GoF. Not that he cares. He clearly values usefulness well over > loyalty. > > a_svirn I think the most important thing we learn is that Narcissa loves Draco and would like to protect him, even if it means going against LV. From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Aug 1 18:52:24 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 14:52:24 EDT Subject: Harry/Ginny Message-ID: <1a2.38b5dc5a.301fc968@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135934 Rizza: >>I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the >>Harry/Ginny relationship. Christina: I've been a Harry/Ginny shipper since day one. It's always made sense to me, and it's always seemed like the logical choice. That said, I absolutely *hated* the way H/G was handled in HBP. My main issue is with the way Ginny's character was treated in general. In my mind, Ginny is written in HBP as SuperAwesome!Ginny-- aka, every Mary Sue I've ever read. She is without flaw which makes her, IMO, boring. I felt as though JKR was screaming to us, "Look! Ginny is so cool! She's sassy and classy and funny and athletic and doesn't everyone just LOVE her?" All of the best characters in the HP universe are flawed (Sirius is reckless, Hermione is very bossy and downright obnoxious at times, Molly can be overprotective and critical, etc). All *people* are flawed. I didn't have as much of a problem with the handling of the actual 'ship as I did with Ginny in general--I felt as though she was being shoved down my throat, and that makes me a little resentful. I liked her better when she was plain. Just my two knuts. Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 18:55:42 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:55:42 -0000 Subject: Big Bad Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135935 severelysigune wrote: Part the First: Sevvie and Cissy Narcissa ? so beautiful, so blonde and so alone ? is desperate. Her husband Lucius is in prison and her sixteen-year-old son Draco, the apple of her eye, has been assigned a most dangerous task which she does not think he can possibly carry out: killing Albus Dumbledore, the only wizard whose magical power equals Lord Voldemort's. The Dark Lord, she guesses, doesn't believe in Draco's success either but has given him the job with the almost sole purpose of killing the boy when he fails to deliver. What is Narcissa to do? Lucius is in prison and out of favour; he cannot protect their son with his own hands and his name does not mean much anymore. But another Death Eater has taken his place in the Dark Lord's good graces ? another Death Eater with whom Narcissa is also on first name terms: the slippery Severus Snape. Snape is a member of Dumbledore's staff and a wizard of some talent; he would be perfect both to watch over Draco and, if necessary, carry out the dirty deed himself. In order to save her son, Narcissa will have to plead with Snape ? he really is the only one who can help her. vmonte responds: Wonderful post! I also think Voldemort gave Draco the task in order to test Snape. I think he wanted to see just how far Snape would go to help Draco. severelysigune: Severus Snape is a very cautious man. He has to be, if he values his own life. Both Albus Dumbledore and Lord Voldemort believe to have him on their side as a spy so that, in order to keep his balance between the two of them and maintain credibility, Snape has to watch his words and actions at all times and keep both satisfied. When Narcissa arrives in Spinner's End, Snape's position as a servant of two masters is the following: he has Albus Dumbledore's complete trust; and the Dark Lord has welcomed him back into the fold. Voldemort, however, had referred to him in GoF's Graveyard Scene as "the one who has left me forever; he will be killed, of course" (confirmed by JKR in an interview as referring to Snape) ? which makes you wonder just how welcoming the Dark Lord really was when Snape turned up on his doorstep... If Voldemort really feels he can rely on Snape, would he send Peter Pettigrew, the Rat Who Listens At Doors, to Spinner's End? Snape may well say Wormtail is there to assist him; the truth is that he is being watched in his own house. vmonte: Yes, I agree here. severelysigune: ...Unbreakable Vow? The Unbreakable Vow is the kind of narrative device that alerts the reader of fairy tales to impending doom. Remember Beauty and the Beast, Rumpelstiltkin and many other stories, in which a man or woman is saved from a disaster in return for an indefinite reward along the lines of, "Give me the first thing you see when you come home." Those people always expect the `first thing' to be their dog or something they are prepared to part with, but it invariably turns out to be their own child or someone/something so precious that they would gladly have forsaken the offered help...The Unbreakable Vow Narcissa asks Snape to make is a spell that kills the `bondee' when they break their promise... To agree to anything like an Unbreakable Vow... there is bound to be a Nagini-sized snake in the grass. And hey presto, there certainly is. Narcissa cleverly forces a third clause on Snape: to carry out the mission in case Draco fails... However, the most compelling pressure issues not from Bella, but from her sister, whose tears flow freely, who clutches at Snape's robes, holds his hands and throws herself at his feet. She strokes his ego: "you could do it," she says, "you are the Dark Lord's favourite", "you are Draco's favourite teacher", "/you/ would succeed". All pretty transparent to this sceptical observer ? but Narcissa has touched a nerve. Consider who she is, where she is and with whom she is pleading. Narcissa Black Malfoy, an elegant, beautiful and upper-class pure-blood has alighted on a "Muggle dunghill" to humbly beg the help of the ugly, frustrated and unpopular son of a spinner ? a half-blood wizard who craves recognition, whose only pathetic claim to nobility lies in the sound of his mother's name, who has painstakingly eradicated any sign of his origins in his diction and dress but somehow never found the acceptance and admiration he considers his due. vmonte: Narcissa did touch a nerve in Snape. He was loving her grovelling! (This is Snape's greatest weakness IMO. Harry should use Snape's lack of self worth to his advantage. Harry has always had the ability to make Snape lose his cool (and vise-versa)--he should work this to his advantage.) severelysigune: ...but his vanity and pride send signals that are too strong for so weak a man to resist. Snape is deeply enjoying his power over Pretty Cissy. He says yes, not out of the goodness of his heart, but because it is his moment of triumph over all he has wanted to be but has not been able to reach. He has finally come to the point where he can bow down to pick up a pure-blooded aristocratic beauty from where she is grovelling in the dust. Stupid, stupid, stupid... vmonte: Yes, I agree. Snape was caught by a larger spinner--a black widow spider! (I'm smiling with an evil smirk as I write this.) severelysigune wrote: Part the Second: Black Wizard, White Wizard ? or, Dumbledore's Fatal Mistake ...He is ashamed of having been tricked like a novice. He has made an elementary mistake; and where in canon have we ever caught Snape admitting a mistake? Dumbledore, yes. Sirius, yes. Remus, yes. Snape? No way. He makes errors and he is aware of them, but he does not admit them. He tries to solve his problems on his own, in silence. So he does what he is good at: the telling of partial truths. He informs Dumbledore of the assassination plot and of the fact that he has made a Vow to protect Draco, but he never mentions the full pledge... ...Dumbledore, as JKR has pointed out in her last interview, has no equals, no confidantes. No one is up to his standard. But Dumbledore's greatest mistake is that he does not realise so. Because he can forgive and forget, he assumes that Snape and Harry can, too. Because he is not afraid to die, he thinks other people shouldn't be either. Because he sees the good in others, he thinks it is a natural thing and evident to everyone. Because he is willing to sacrifice himself, he thinks that Snape must be, too. But Snape is, unlike Dumbledore, not "a great man". He is not hero material. He is brainy, yes; but in terms of personality he is small and petty and weak...Dumbledore is constantly demanding everything, kindly for starters, and firmly if kindness does not yield the desired result. Look at how he ? admittedly very politely and without raising his voice ? pesters Harry about his failure to retrieve Slughorn's memory in "Lord Voldemort's Request". It is Harry's first experience of what it is like to work under Dumbledore's orders; Snape has been under this kind of pressure ever since Voldemort's resurrection... vmonte: Excellent thoughts! I so far agree with everything you say. severelysigune: Dumbledore exchange on the battlement is to me the most chilling moment of Half-Blood Prince. If my assumption is correct and Snape has kept the third clause of the Unbreakable Vow from Dumbledore, then those few seconds are even more heart-breaking than I found them at first sight. When Dumbledore whispers "Severus please " he is not pleading for his life, because he is not afraid to die; neither is he asking Snape to kill him as arranged, because there was no such arrangement. What he means is, "please don't tell me I was wrong about you... There was, for once, no malicious intent on Snape's side, and yet he has, one could say, committed what is possibly his worst crime. Both he and Dumbledore have become victims of his human weakness, of character flaws combined with the vulnerabilities connected to his social and intellectual background, childhood events and poor choices made in the past. Dumbledore's trust has been justified, but he has overestimated Snape's capacities. vmonte: I agree that Dumbledore was upset and thought (rightly in my opinion) that Snape had betrayed him in the end. I think that Narcissa'a bond forced Snape to finally reveal "part of his hand." Snape is too much of an outcast to belong to either group, and he enjoys power "too much"(let alone his sadistic tendencies) to be on the side of the Order (we see flickers of his flawed personality in his treatment of the children, during PoA when he becomes excited over the possiblity of getting an award for Sirius's capture, and of his evident enjoyment in seeing Narcissa grovel for Draco's safety. I also cannot help thinking of the time that Draco stroked Snape's ego by telling him that he would make a better head master than Dumbledore-- boy did Snape love that!) I'm also thinking that there must be something to JKR's comment: MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. It's got to be Dumbledore that loved Snape. This sounds like Snape has made the wrong choice in my opinion. Vivian "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 18:59:25 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:59:25 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > > Steve wrote: > > > > So, I'm not absolving anyone of any guilt. Sirius made a young > > implusive and dangerous choice, and so did Snape. ... > > > > Just trying to keep things in perspective. > > Lynn: > > > > Perspective? We have to keep things in perspective? Well, that > takes all the fun out of it LOL > > > > I agree with all you said Steve with an addition. We know that > Madame Pomfrey takes Lupin over. For Snape to know where/wonder why > Lupin goes there, he had to have seen Madam Pomfrey and know that > whatever was happening was sanctioned by the administration. > > > > Let's face it, Snape isn't stupid and he had to have had a pretty > good idea that whatever was happening, ... > colebiancardi: > > but what Sirius did was a crime - something that should have gotten > him expelled. ...edit Lupin quote.... > > so, Snape COULD have been killed or turned into a werewolf. And > James's life was in great danger too, of either being killed or > turned. What Sirius did was inexcusable - despite Snape trying to > get them expelled, there is nothing in the books that has Snape > trying to kill any of his classmates in school. Why DD didn't > expell him, I don't know... > > colebiancardi bboyminn: Why was it a crime? Why was it attempted murder? Sirius didn't throw Snape to the 'wolves'. Snape went by his own choice and of his own accord knowing full well that he was acting against the wishes of the administration. All Sirius did was tell him how to get past the Whomping Willow. How is that a crime? If Snape had minded his own business and followed the obvious rules, he never would have been in danger. So how does that make Sirius a criminal? Now, don't get me wrong, we all know there was a little more to it than that. Sirius certainly had a malicious intent in telling Snape how to get past the Tree. I'm sure he knew the Snape's curiousity would absolutely make him go into the tunnel, but none the less Snape made that choice on his own; no one forced him. Further, as I already said, we don't know that Sirius intended Snape to be harmed. Remember, Snape wasn't hog-tied and throw into the tunnel. If anything the most recent book (HBP) shows us the extreme nature of Snape's genius and wizardly skills. He was more than capable of defending himself. True, he still could have gotten hurt; but STILL he wasn't defenseless either. I don't think it's fair to brand Sirius a 'criminal' because Snape made a foolish and self-serving choice. Don't ge me wrong, Sirius did a bad thing, he was shortsighted and irresponsible, but in the end, all he did was convey information; Snape made his own choice to act on that information, so Snape is never free from blame. You are more than justified for being incensed by Sirius's actions, just as long as you don't paint Snape as a sweet innocent by-stander. However incensed you may be, I think you are going overboard in branding Sirius as a criminal in the truest sense of the word. Ultimately, there is plenty of blame to go around for everyone, but in the end, no one was hurt, no one forced anyone to do anything, and everyone made bad choices. I don't see this as going as far as a criminal matter, but everyone involved certainly deserved punishment by the school, and I suspect they got it. Snape's biggest problem is not that he was almost killed, but that he was made a fool of, and even worse, rescued by and now indebted to someone he hated. Further, Snape's claims of attempted murder are overstated, certainly there was danger, certainly the possiblity of injury or death existed, but Snape was NOT defenseless, he had a wand, and he new many many dark and dangerous spells. I would think that if anyone had a right to be angry it was Lupin, who in my opinion, was both at the greatest risk of causing harm, but even more so, at the greatest risk of being harmed. So, your righteous indignation is justified, but I think you are wrong to take it to the extreme of making this a criminal matter and laying all the blame on Sirius. So, exactly to what extent and in what way do you see Snape as being culpable in this matter? Exactly what was Sirius's criminal action? Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 19:02:11 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:02:11 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135937 simbananacat wrote: > > I think the most important thing we learn is that Narcissa loves > Draco and would like to protect him, even if it means going against > LV. How was she going *against* LV?! By ensuring that Dumbledore would be murdered by an adult powerful wizard rather than her precious son? a_svirn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 1 19:14:52 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:14:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] many replies to many posts from many people, ALL SPOILERS References: <1122921908.2158.52878.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003001c596cd$4cd337a0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 135938 Merrylinks wrote: >My take on this is that Snape's mother probably made many of the >annotations to the Potions textbook. It was originally hers, after >all. This would also explain why Hermione thought the notes had been >written by a female. This doesn't mean that Snape is a potions >dunderhead, just that he wasn't the first in the family to make >creative modifications to the recipes in the book. Don't know about that. It might just have been an old book at the time the young Snape had it. I think Harry was just unobservant (as was I when I read HBP for the first time!) He saw Snape's "small, cramped" handwriting in the Pensieve scene the year before and, like us, should have recognised it straight away in the Potions book... hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 19:17:43 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:17:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135939 Salit wrote: I did not like the ending of it with him acting the typical fairy tail hero of protecting his girl and leaving her behind while going off to save the world, then presumably coming back in glory for the prize. I never liked the idea so common in fantasy and fairy tails of the beautiful girl being left at home as a trophy for the victorious hero. It makes even less sense here when she actively participated in many of his struggles and Harry has no compunction letting R+H risk their life. But I don't believe that Ginny will just quietly acquiese - however poor her previous character development, having her meekly stay behind does not fit her current personality. She will be there along with H+R. If love is the power that Harry will use to win, then he'll need all he can get of it... vmonte: You really think that Ginny will stay meekly behind, while Harry fights the DEs and Voldemort alone? I don't think so. Why else would JKR say that Ginny is a powerful witch, that she is Harry's equal, that she can play both Seeker and Chaser, that she is the special "7th" child in the Weasley family, that although she is "small" she is quite powerful (Fred & George comment), etc... Ginny's going to kick a** Vivian From doliesl at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 19:20:25 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin/Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801192025.24473.qmail@web30309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135940 --- casmir2012 wrote: > > > Snapesangel says: > > > > A question (not meant to sound combatative, lol) > > > .Why is Tonks perfect > > > > for Remus? I was genuinely surprised by the > > > pairing because I hadn't > > > > seen any reason why they would be perfect for each > > > other... > > > > Come on and present the argument for the defence - > > > convert me :) > > > ============ > > casmir2012 > I was surprised, too. I went thru OotP and didn't see anything to link > them other than they carried Harry's trunk into Grimmauld place > together. And there was a couple of times Lupin spoke right after > Tonks. But otherwise NOTHING! Not even when Tonks bit it in the MoM > during the fight (which allowed Bella to go after Sirius). There's nothing to convince really, it's no surprise to me all. I KNEW it when Tonks appear in OOTP she was meant to be paired off for Lupin. Whenever good minor single female characters suddenly appear, and doesn't seem to contribute much to plot reason except stocking background, they're probably exist as 'love interest' roles just so JKR can neatly pair up the poor nice single minor male characters who deserves love. Lupin was never that big of a key character for plot (except for book3, where he pretty much served his role purpose), so he can be neatly paired off with whoever available for some cute background filling sidenote romance. (As my unenthusiastic tone shows, the whole Lupin/Tonks was a totally 'great~ whatever' insertion that doesn't matter to me.) At least this shut down the idea that Lupin is gay (and being poorly double oppressed by the homophobic world) or Sirius and Lupin as lovers were canon. If JKR ever meant to hint that, she would not have specified and clarified with 'hug him like a brother' line. D. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 19:30:17 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:30:17 -0000 Subject: Big Bad Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135942 Vivian wrote: ...edited...a lot... > > It's got to be Dumbledore that loved Snape. > This sounds like Snape has made the wrong choice in my opinion. I snipped most of your post, sorry, but it's just because I agree 100% with you and with Severelysigune (BTW, Great message) As to this last sentence, I agree that Dumbledore loved Severus, but not only him. I'm sure someone else (besides his mother) loved him. A friend, a girlfriend, someone. I mean, I think I would have fallen for a guy like him in high school: the weird kid, the unpopular, smart, wicked sense of humor, sexy (IMO, not Rickman)... He must have been a "catch". I would have liked to go out with him ;) Just because someone knows a lot of dark spells it doesn't mean he's a evil wizard. It's like people say that kids who listen to metal, worship the devil and have satanic rituals, and who lnows what else, but they DON'T, some may, of course, but not all of them. I've had to fight against that during my teenage years and adulthood. Yes I listen to that music, my fingernails are always black, but I don't worship the devil, or anything like that, I consider myself a good person, I believe in good, I would never hurt a soul. Juli From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Aug 1 19:37:16 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:37:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incidentg Message-ID: <196.441c5358.301fd3ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135943 >>bboyminn: >> >>First, we can't trust Snape's account of the incident because it is >>highly biased. In fact, even Sirius's account is biased. Second, we >>don't know what happened, so we can't be sure exactly what anyone's >>intent was. Christina: Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the most complete account of the "Incident" I can find is actually given by Lupin--in my opinion, the person most likely to give a mild, objective account. This is what he says on the subject: (PoA, end of Ch. 18) "Severus was very interested in where I went every month," Lupin told Harry, Ron, and Hermione. "We were in the same year, you knojw, and we--er--didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be--er--amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it--if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown wereworlf--but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life...Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden by Dumbledore to tell anybody, but from that time on he knew what I was..." (end quote) >bboyminn: >For example; Sirius could have said to Snape, don't go down to that >tree, don't prode the knot with a stick, do not go inside the tunnel, >and do not walk to the far end of the tunnel where you will surely >find your death. Christina: It doesn't seem like it from what Lupin said, and I really doubt that he would slant the story *against* his friend. >Valky now (rubbing her red raw cheek): >Ouch! :-S >I have to defend that I think you have that entirely wrong Lisa. The >prank couldn't fairly be called an attempted murder. I mean, look >again. Sirius plays with that werewolf every month, it's his favourite >past time. Does he think that a half competent wizard will survive an >encounter with his friend Lupin.. *yes*, he *does*, he's *arrogant*, >prideful, he thinks weekends with werewolves is something *everyone* >should do to build character. Christina: Don't forget that Sirius did NOT hang around with werewolves in his *human* form. He may be arrogant, but I have no doubt that he understood the gravity of Lupin's condition. I think Sirius acted the way he does a lot of the time-- without thinking. I also think it's important to note that James, who I saw to be the more arrogant Marauder in OotP, realized that Snape was in danger and risked his life to save him. The fact that he went after Snape himself, instead of going and getting Dumbledore, implies that James immediately understood the danger Snape was in. >bboyminn: >But you don't >convict people on intent, you convict them on actions, and Sirius's >actions, in the example I created, gave him 'plausable deniability'. Christina: Did Sirius give Snape explicit instructions on how to get to Lupin? I think that Lupin's account is sound, especially given the fact Sirius and Snape both heard it and did not object to it. So yes, he did. Did Sirius know that Snape would find a fully-tranformed werewolf in the Shrieking Shack? Yes, he did. I don't believe that Sirius really *wanted* Snape to be hurt or killed (I think he just got angry at Snape and made an offhand comment in the heat of the moment), but the fact is, he was fully aware of what he was doing. I do put part of the blame on Snape, because he *was* being nosy and did have free will; however, I think that the lion's share is on Sirius. It really doesn't matter to me whether or not we can technically deem him a criminal-- I blame him for being reckless and highly irresponsible. Sure, sometimes teenagers act this way, but Sirius should have been old enough to connect "Cause" and "Effect." >bboyminn: >I would think that if anyone had a right to >be angry it was Lupin, who in my opinion, was both at the greatest >risk of causing harm, but even more so, at the greatest risk of being >harmed. Christina: We agree! I think that Snape was in more physical danger, but Lupin had more of a right to be angry because Sirius was his friend. Lupin trusted him with an extremely sensitive secret, and Sirius totally blew his trust. If Snape had been injured or killed, Lupin would have that on his conscience for the rest of his life and probably wouldn't have ever forgiven himself. > Saraquel says: More significantly, why was Sirius allowed to stay > at Hogwarts and not expelled, what punishment did he recieve? If I > was Snape, knowing that someone had deliberately set out to either > kill me or at least make me into a werewolf for the rest of my life, > I would be pretty pissed off if they were only given a detention. Christina: AND he was forbidden to tell anyone about Lupin! I don't think Snape was entirely innocent in this situation, but I can see him getting quite angry over the results. I'm sure it only fueled the feud between Snape and Sirius. >Lynn: >After all, we know from the pensieve scene that he had overheard the Mauraders talking >about Lupin being a werewolf. Christina: JKR has said that pensives are objective accounts of what has happened. We also have to assume that pensive memories contain information that the person was not privvy to at the time the memory was created (which I think is a bit of a Pandora's box, but they're not my books). Harry sees James doodling Lily's initials and a snitch on his OWL exam paper--there's no way Snape could have seen that from where he was sitting. Therefore, while the Marauders did seem to use their *nicknames* fairly loosely, there is no evidence to suggest that Snape knew Lupin was a werewolf in advance. Even besides that, we don't really have a clear timeline for the MWPP Hogwarts events. The "incident" could have happened prior to the pensive memory (although I certainly would have been more careful taunting Snape if I knew he had a huge secret in his head concerning one of my best pals). Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajroald at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 19:43:44 2005 From: ajroald at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:43:44 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the Harry/Ginny relationship. Well, I guess I can throw my two knuts into this ring. After all the tension and inuendo spent getting Ron and Hermione together (who, btw, are still not technically together), couldn't she use just a little of that between Harry and Ginny? What, two chapters of 'Harry's little monster in his chest' and their snogging? Then there is nothing except Harry thinking of Ginny in a paragraph or two, then they are broken up. What exactly was the point of any of it? Leaving something to the imagination is one thing, leaving the entire interaction and relationship is another. It was rushed and cliche and might as well have not been included in my opinion. From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 1 19:46:37 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:46:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002301c596d1$bbb85c00$6924f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135945 > bboyminn: > > Why was it a crime? Why was it attempted murder? Sirius didn't throw > Snape to the 'wolves'. Snape went by his own choice and of his own > accord knowing full well that he was acting against the wishes of the > administration. All Sirius did was tell him how to get past the > Whomping Willow. How is that a crime? > Because Sirius KNEW that Lupin was dangerous. Snape did not. I quoted the passage from Lupin, because EVEN Lupin knew it could have killed both Snape & James. James saved Snape's life, at great risk to his own....Hence, the life-debt that Snape owed James. Those things aren't given out lightly. Sirius set up Snape - he knew Snape would go looking. True, Snape didn't HAVE to go, he could have stayed in his dorm. But Sirius knew that Snape would go - he taunted him - probably even called him coward. And we know what 16 year old boys are like - hell, even some grown men & women have issues being called a coward. Snape wanted to know what Lupin was up to - he did not know that Lupin was a werewolf. If he had known, he wouldn't have gone. I don't think it even crossed his mind that Sirius would go so low as to *murder* him. Perhaps Sirius didn't think that Snape would get hurt - perhaps he thought as you have posted - Snape has his wand, knows magic, and so forth. But, remember, even the MMPPW couldn't face Lupin as themselves when Lupin turned into a werewolf. They had to go to their animal forms. Snape, as far as we know, is not an Animagus. Sherry now: You are forgetting the infamous pensive scene. The one Harry saw, when he shouldn't have. That took place in fifth year, and since the so called prank happened when they were 16, it is most likely in the sixth year. In the pensive scene, Snape's memory, the marauders are talking about Lupin being a werewolf. There's no way Snape didn't know it, or at least guess. Sirius was wrong, but he was guilty of being a reckless brash teenage boy, not a murderer. Kids of that age aren't allowed to do magic outside school in the WW. They aren't allowed to work long hours or use dangerous equipment and can't work at certain jobs in the real world. Because they still haven't developed enough judgment to do these things safely. i am sure that Sirius didn't think about the worst consequence that could have happened, the danger to Lupin, if something had happened to Snape. He was foolish, absolutely, but not criminal. And we don't really know all the details of what led up to Snape going into that tunnel. We've been given a few words about it, but with Snape's hatred of the marauders, i wouldn't be surprised if the circumstances were not quite as they've been told. Even Lupin doesn't explain what actually happened. And Snape is the one who did indeed become a murderer, probably in his active life with the death eaters, and as we just saw, on the Astronomy Tower at the end of HBP. He's not a poor helpless victim in any way. Sherry From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 19:49:55 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incidentg In-Reply-To: <196.441c5358.301fd3ec@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050801194955.64531.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135946 >bboyminn: >I would think that if anyone had a right to >be angry it was Lupin, who in my opinion, was both at the greatest >risk of causing harm, but even more so, at the greatest risk of > being harmed. If teen!Snape was the terrible awful person that Sirius describes - always following them around, trying to get them expelled, etc. - then surely it was the height of stupidity to play a trick that resulted in his discovery of Lupin's condition. Lupin would have been vulnerable to Snape's blackmail or at the dubious mercy of his discretion. Not to mention the utter betrayal of taking advantage of Lupin's condition - which is a source of anguish to Lupin - and using it to play a joke. That to me has always been the worst aspect of the Prank - the way in which Sirius treated Lupin, the guy who was his second-bestest mate but who he was willing to see as a monster when it suited his purposes. I remember reading POA for the first time and feeling stunned that JKR obviously expected readers to like this guy and see him as a positive thing for Harry. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 19:50:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:50:54 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: <003001c596cd$4cd337a0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135947 Merrylinks wrote: My take on this is that Snape's mother probably made many of the annotations to the Potions textbook. It was originally hers, after all. This would also explain why Hermione thought the notes had been written by a female. This doesn't mean that Snape is a potions dunderhead, just that he wasn't the first in the family to make creative modifications to the recipes in the book. vmonte: I agree with you! LOL! I think that it takes a little more than memorizing books and practicing spells and potions to make you a gifted wizard. Sure, you are going to be clever and better than the average wizard, but that alone will not make you a "Mozart." This is (IMO) why Slughorn fondly remembers Lily, because she was a Mozart with potions. Harry has this kind of "natural born" talent when it comes to DADA. He has natural ability, something that cannot be taught. During SS/PS Hermione figured out Snape's potion test because it had nothing really to do with potions, it was really a logic test. And Hermione figured it out because she and Snape are similar thinkers. I loved how Slughorn mentions in HBP that Hermione gave the correct answer to a question by basically dictating what she had memorized in the textbook. Why do you suppose Slughorn would use a textbook that is obviously lousy? It's because it takes something more than book smarts to be a truly gifted potions master (I'm sure he says this also). Snape knew a lot of dark magic before he even started Hogwarts. I think that he learned it from reading his mothers books. I hope that Snape was not "in lust" of Lily (I do not say love because I don't think he's capable of it). Snape likes to lord power over people. It would be just like him to covet Lily because she is James's girl, but to treat her abusively like his father treated his mother. Snape learned a lot from his parents...but nothing good. Vivian From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Aug 1 19:54:11 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:54:11 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135948 Sigune: Narcissa so beautiful, so blonde and so alone is desperate. [snip] It is just that he has allowed himself to be seduced by the admittedly formidable combined forces of the Black sisters, which wouldn't have worked with *me* - I'm impervious to female charm :o). houyhnhnm: I find it hard to believe that Severus Snape is susceptible to female charm, either. His actions toward Narcissa struck me as more cold and manipulative than sympathetic. "He looked away from the sight of her tears as though they were indecent ...." "Snape stooped, seized her by the arms, lifted her up, and steered her back onto the sofa. He then poured her more wine and forced the glass into her hand. "'Narcissa, that's enough ....'" Narcissa may be playing the beautiful damsel in distress, but the only thing she is working with Snape is his desire for information. I'm in two minds as to whether Narcissa is deliberately setting a trap or whether Snape's life of lies has simply caught up with him and he is trapped in his own web. Still, there is obviously a long established "friend of the family" relationship between Severus and Narcissa. The Malfoys are probably the closest thing to "friends" that Snape has ever had. I couldn't help wondering how many of those black and brown leather bound books were bought with Malfoy gold. Great point about the Unbreakable Vow as a narrative device. Potioncat: He gazes at DD. DD who had just told Draco that Draco is dependent on his mercies. DD who would rather sacrifice himself at this point than lose Snape and Draco. (Snape I can understand, DD's concern for Draco is more merciful than I can imagine.) DD would save himself over Snape if he was well and able to continue the fight but he seems to be near death. If Snape dies, so does DD. I think there is some communication between DD and Snape at this point. ***DD sacrifices himself just like Ron did in the chess game. Just as Ron tells Harry and Hermione what moves they must make after the Knight is taken, I think DD has told Snape to make certain moves after the Rook( castle) is taken*** houyhnhnm: Good point. I think Ron's actions in PS/SS do foreshadow Dumbledore's on the tower. As much as I agree with those who don't feel that either Snape's or Dumbledore's characters are consistant with a full and open disclosure about the Unbreakable Vow (though there is an *awful lot* we don't know about their relationship), for me, it all comes down to Dumbledore's "Severus ... please". Since I can't believe Dumbledore would plead for his life, the only other explanation is that by this time, Dumbledore knows and has extracted a promise from Snape to step in if Draco appears to be succeeding. It's not that I imagine they sit down and have a calm discussion in which Dumbledore says, "You made an Unbreakable Vow to kill me? No problem. Go ahead and do it." More likely that Dumbledore is playing for time. He is an old, old man who feels his own death approaching. He has been weakened by the battle with Voldemort and badly injured in the destruction of the ring horcrux. He could easily die before Draco ever gets close to succeeding. He wants to teach Harry as much as he can, find out as much as possible about the horcruxes, AND foil Voldemort's scheme to use Draco to assassinate him. As to why he would save Draco, I don't think the magical power of love resides so much in the worthiness of the object as in the intention of the giver. Voldemort could not bear to possess Harry because of Harry's love for Sirius. How much worse to have his plan to hit the evil trifecta (kill Dumbledore, punish Lucius Malfoy, punish Snape) foiled by Dumbledore's willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice. As to why he would save Snape, I think Harry is going to need the prince in his battle against Voldemort, as unlikely as it seems now, that Harry could ever accept such help. From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 1 19:54:57 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:54:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135949 > > > colebiancardi: > > > > but what Sirius did was a crime - something that should have gotten > > him expelled. ...edit Lupin quote.... > > > > so, Snape COULD have been killed or turned into a werewolf. And > > James's life was in great danger too, of either being killed or > > turned. What Sirius did was inexcusable - despite Snape trying to > > get them expelled, there is nothing in the books that has Snape > > trying to kill any of his classmates in school. Why DD didn't > > expell him, I don't know... > > > > colebiancardi > > bboyminn: > > Why was it a crime? Why was it attempted murder? Sirius didn't throw > Snape to the 'wolves'. Snape went by his own choice and of his own > accord knowing full well that he was acting against the wishes of the > administration. All Sirius did was tell him how to get past the > Whomping Willow. How is that a crime? > Because Sirius KNEW that Lupin was dangerous. Snape did not. I quoted the passage from Lupin, because EVEN Lupin knew it could have killed both Snape & James. James saved Snape's life, at great risk to his own....Hence, the life-debt that Snape owed James. Those things aren't given out lightly. Sirius set up Snape - he knew Snape would go looking. True, Snape didn't HAVE to go, he could have stayed in his dorm. But Sirius knew that Snape would go - he taunted him - probably even called him coward. And we know what 16 year old boys are like - hell, even some grown men & women have issues being called a coward. Snape wanted to know what Lupin was up to - he did not know that Lupin was a werewolf. If he had known, he wouldn't have gone. I don't think it even crossed his mind that Sirius would go so low as to *murder* him. Perhaps Sirius didn't think that Snape would get hurt - perhaps he thought as you have posted - Snape has his wand, knows magic, and so forth. But, remember, even the MMPPW couldn't face Lupin as themselves when Lupin turned into a werewolf. They had to go to their animal forms. Snape, as far as we know, is not an Animagus. The crime is the intent. Even James knew this, as although he loathed Snape as much as Sirius did, he(James) went after Snape to stop him from getting killed. > Steve/bboyminn > If Snape had minded his own business and followed the obvious rules, > he never would have been in danger. So how does that make Sirius a > criminal? see my above post. It is a crime. Sirius knew that Lupin was a werewolf - Snape did not. Sirius negected to tell Snape this important bit of information - if he did, Snape would not have gone. > > Steve/bboyminn > Now, don't get me wrong, we all know there was a little more to it > than that. Sirius certainly had a malicious intent in telling Snape > how to get past the Tree. I'm sure he knew the Snape's curiousity > would absolutely make him go into the tunnel, but none the less Snape > made that choice on his own; no one forced him. Snape is a busy-body. That is not a crime. Sirius intended for Snape to get hurt or killed or turned into a werewolf. That is a crime. > Steve/bboyminn > > Further, as I already said, we don't know that Sirius intended Snape > to be harmed. Oh please - p 356 Am.Ed hardcover PoA Lupin..."He had his reasons...you see, Sirius played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me -- " Black made a derisive noise "It served him right", he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping he would get us expelled..." sounds to me that Sirius, even 20 years later, didn't care if Snape lived or died that night. > Steve/bboyminn > Remember, Snape wasn't hog-tied and throw into the > tunnel. If anything the most recent book (HBP) shows us the extreme > nature of Snape's genius and wizardly skills. He was more than capable > of defending himself. True, he still could have gotten hurt; but STILL > he wasn't defenseless either. hmmm...somehow, Lupin disagrees with that assessment, as he stated that James saved Snape's life, at great risk to his own. Seems like 2 boys could have died that evening due to Sirius's little "prank". > Steve/bboyminn What Sirius did is inexcusable. He got away with something that other Hogwart's students probably would have gotten expelled for. Look at Hagrid's offense and look how he got kicked out. Sirius knew - he knew that Lupin was a werewolf, he knew Snape would go looking and he knew that Snape would get hurt, as it seems that even a wizard (and an underaged one at that) with a wand is no match for a werewolf. Snape should not have gone looking, but Sirius should have never told him anything about the Whomping Willow, as he neglected to tell Snape that oh, by the way, Lupin will be a fully-grown werewolf when you meet up with him. colebiancardi (who really likes the adult Sirius, but hates teen Sirius - as he was a bored bully) added onto to Juli's post about "big bad snape" >>s to this last sentence, I agree that Dumbledore loved Severus, but >>not only him. I'm sure someone else (besides his mother) loved him. >>A friend, a girlfriend, someone. I mean, I think I would have fallen >>for a guy like him in high school: the weird kid, the unpopular, >>smart, wicked sense of humor, sexy (IMO, not Rickman)... He must >>have been a "catch". I had to LOL outloud at this comment, sorry Juli....no offense meant. But I agree on the 1st 3 points - weird, unpopular, smart. but wicked sense of humor? What we have been exposed to in the books, Snape's *humor* degrades other people - lesser ones at that - the children he teaches. How is that even remotely amusing? He is sadistic, not sarcastic. and Sexy? Rowling goes out of her way to make him not *sexy* - and even though I have a very big weakness and fondness for men with large noses, the rest of Snape's description of how he looks is not favorable at all - greasy and lank hair, sallow skin, yellow and uneven teeth, and a hooked nose. Even when he was a teen, he "had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark". Now, I am no beauty-queen(like Ginny (LOL)), but I think even I would get a better description of my looks than Snape did :) >> I would have liked to go out with him ;) Just >>because someone knows a lot of dark spells it doesn't mean he's a >>evil wizard. but Snape did turn to become an evil wizard - he became a Death Eater. What he picked up at Hogwarts and what he learned from his *connections* with the Malfoys, made him become evil. don't get me wrong - Snape is far more the interesting character because of these flaws. But I still think the person who loved him was his mum cole From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Aug 1 20:12:03 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:12:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's death/Oho! Message-ID: <1ff.6d1ef65.301fdc13@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135951 In a message dated 7/25/2005 9:15:12 AM Central Standard Time, dimoffamily at centurytel.net writes: Filch also says "oho!" at one point in this book, so I think it is a common expression. Slughorn and Filch (who it couldn't have been anyway) were both there at the end of the book after DD's death. Cheryl Melissa: Fudge uses it in OOTP as well. I agree that it is a common expression that Slughorn overuses. DD might save it for truly surprising moments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Aug 1 20:13:21 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 20:13:21 -0000 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: <000f01c596c8$79cf9500$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135952 manawydan: Rat Boy houyhnhnm: I hope I don't get in trouble for going off topic, but I had to respond to this. One reason I can't accept an ESE Snape has no basis whatsoever in canon and that is the fact that I had a student once who was *identical* to the description of the teenage Snape in OotP. Skinny, round shouldered, hook-nosed, with long greasy black hair, he didn't cause trouble in my class; he never did much of anything at all, just slunked in and slunked back out every day. The other students called him Rat Boy! I had a slug club of my own at that school, made up, not of rising stars, but of misfits and outcasts. I pulled a couple of thugs off the Rat Boy one day and after that he became my dog, joined the club, made friends, and turned out to be a pretty nice kid. Too bad Severus didn't have any teachers who were interested in something other than winning the House Cup and feathering their nests. From troelsfo at yahoo.dk Mon Aug 1 20:19:28 2005 From: troelsfo at yahoo.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:19:28 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050801221352.02091ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 135953 At 23:23 31-07-05 +0000, you wrote: >First, all time travel will create a paradox, even the best thought >out methods; there is simply no escape from that. That is simply not correct. Travelling to the future is, of course, unproblematic (and travelling a thousand years into the future is possible for a human being -- just not with our current technology), so the interesting part are Closed Time-like Curves -- paths in space-time that returns to the same point in space-time (i.e. same spatial position and same time) after travelling a non-zero distance. Physics (possibly) allows time-travel, but without the paradoxes, and there are several ways to do this. Regards, Troels Forchhammer From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 1 20:16:15 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 20:16:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > > bboyminn: > > > > Why was it a crime? Why was it attempted murder? Sirius didn't throw > > Snape to the 'wolves'. Snape went by his own choice and of his own > > accord knowing full well that he was acting against the wishes of the > > administration. All Sirius did was tell him how to get past the > > Whomping Willow. How is that a crime? > > > this was my post(colebiancardi - original) > Because Sirius KNEW that Lupin was dangerous. Snape did not. I > quoted the passage from Lupin, because EVEN Lupin knew it could have > killed both Snape & James. James saved Snape's life, at great risk to > his own....Hence, the life-debt that Snape owed James. Those things > aren't given out lightly. Sirius set up Snape - he knew Snape would > go looking. True, Snape didn't HAVE to go, he could have stayed in > his dorm. But Sirius knew that Snape would go - he taunted him - > probably even called him coward. And we know what 16 year old boys > are like - hell, even some grown men & women have issues being called > a coward. Snape wanted to know what Lupin was up to - he did not > know that Lupin was a werewolf. If he had known, he wouldn't have > gone. I don't think it even crossed his mind that Sirius would go so > low as to *murder* him. Perhaps Sirius didn't think that Snape would > get hurt - perhaps he thought as you have posted - Snape has his wand, > knows magic, and so forth. But, remember, even the MMPPW couldn't > face Lupin as themselves when Lupin turned into a werewolf. They had > to go to their animal forms. Snape, as far as we know, is not an > Animagus. > > > > > Sherry now: > > You are forgetting the infamous pensive scene. The one Harry saw, >when he shouldn't have. That took place in fifth year, and since the >so called prank happened when they were 16, it is most likely in the >sixth year. In the pensive scene, Snape's memory, the marauders are >talking about Lupin being a werewolf. There's no way Snape didn't >know it, or at least guess. have to disagree - there were other things in that scene - such as James writing on his paper the initials LE - that Snape would not have known about. In the book OotP, "Harry mananged to keep Snape in sight while straining his ears to catch the voices of James and his friends". Snape was busy, "absorbed in his own examination paper". I doubt he heard the gang. >Sirius was wrong, but he was guilty of > >being a reckless brash teenage boy, not a murderer. yeah, a reckless brash teenage boy who had murder on his mind, it seems. Why else taunt Snape to go after Lupin? Why didn't he tell Snape that Lupin was a werewolf? You think that if Snape emerged from his little jaunt to the WW and having a cup of tea with wolfy Lupin, that would not have gotten someone kicked out of school? Like Lupin, the werewolf? Do you think that Sirius intended Snape to discover the secret and not have Snape killed or turned into a wolfy himself? The news about Lupin would have been shot around the WW, if Snape had emerged unharmed and if James hadn't saved him. The fact that James saved Snape's life is the only reason why Lupin's secret didn't get out. DD made Snape promise not to speak a word of it, and I am sure the life-debt had a lot to do with it. sure, Sirius is *lacking* in judgement, but how many 16 year olds do you know would put someone up to a *prank* that could have ended horrifically, and not just for Snape, but for Lupin and James, as well. I am not saying that the deeds that *adult* Snape did weren't worse than Sirius's *prank* (and I am sure they were much worse), but *teenage* Snape, even with all of his hexes & curses (hey, Ginny does her infamous bogey-bat curse all the time, it seems), does not seem to deserve this type of treatment, based on what we have seen. Sure, Snape hates MMPPW, but it seems that he was ganged up on by them quite a bit. and 4 to 1 odds don't look good for MMPPW, as that makes them out to be bullies. colebiancardi From troelsfo at yahoo.dk Mon Aug 1 20:28:12 2005 From: troelsfo at yahoo.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:28:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA (long!) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20050731230233.020d5d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050801222145.020fbea0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 135956 At 08:15 01-08-05 +0000, you wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > > I don't think there actually is a well-defined model for time in > > Potterverse because I don't think Rowling will have considered > > that -- math and physics: her mind doesn't work that way). > >Hi everyone, you're all getting tooo deep! Forget the maths and >physics etc. The time nonsense in book 3 doesn't work because >JKR didn't think it through - it's a remarkably simple flaw and >goes like this: Actually you are yourself the one to go too deep. If you consider for a moment the statement you left in, you will see that I actually assert that there is no answer to the question because Rowling hasn't given (and probably not even imagined) one. Don't forget that we are talking about an incomplete world: if Rowling hasn't told us what colour someone's hair is, then that person's hair hasn't got any colour. That is how simple it is. Time, in Potterverse, doesn't work according to any model because it is very doubtful that Rowling actually has an intended model in mind at all. That, however, shouldn't stop of from considering the range of /possible/ models -- i.e. models that are consistent with the descriptions in the books (just as the absence of a definite hair colour shouldn't stop us from considering the possible colours), and even state personal preferences. But we should always recall how simple the reality of Potterverse really is: the thing just doesn't exist. >Sometimes things can be very simple. Unfortunately what you were suggesting is /extremely/ complex . . . /Troels From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 20:25:08 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 20:25:08 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135957 Potioncat: DD would save himself over Snape if he was well and able to continue the fight but he seems to be near death. If Snape dies, so does DD. I think there is some communication between DD and Snape at this point. ***DD sacrifices himself just like Ron did in the chess game. Just as Ron tells Harry and Hermione what moves they must make after the Knight is taken, I think DD has told Snape to make certain moves after the Rook( castle) is taken*** houyhnhnm: Good point. I think Ron's actions in PS/SS do foreshadow Dumbledore's on the tower. As much as I agree with those who don't feel that either Snape's or Dumbledore's characters are consistant with a full and open disclosure about the Unbreakable Vow (though there is an *awful lot* we don't know about their relationship), for me, it all comes down to Dumbledore's "Severus ... please". Since I can't believe Dumbledore would plead for his life, the only other explanation is that by this time, Dumbledore knows and has extracted a promise from Snape to step in if Draco appears to be succeeding. vmonte: I don't get the feeling that the Queen playing against Ron's Knight is on the good side. I don't think she represents Snape's character either--I think she is Bellatrix, since this piece also takes down Ron's other Knight, which probably represents Sirius. I'm not sure this foreshadowing has happened yet. (It's also possible that Dumbledore realized that he was being betrayed by Snape but that he also left clues/instructions in the penseive or with Aberforth.) It's also possible that in book seven one of the Weasley's will go up against Bellatrix (Ginny, Ron, Molly-lol) so that Harry can go after Voldemort (how many times were we reminded that the Weasley's owe Harry for saving the Weasley children?). Vivian From troelsfo at yahoo.dk Mon Aug 1 20:36:03 2005 From: troelsfo at yahoo.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:36:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050801221352.02091ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050801223047.03410490@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 135958 At 22:19 01-08-05 +0200, I wrote: >Physics (possibly) allows time-travel, but without the paradoxes, >and there are several ways to do this. For those who might be interested in further reading: And more generally: Just in case ;-) Regards, Troels From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 20:46:54 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:46:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135960 colebiancardi: > I am not saying that the deeds that *adult* Snape did weren't worse > than Sirius's *prank* (and I am sure they were much worse), but > *teenage* Snape, even with all of his hexes & curses (hey, Ginny does > her infamous bogey-bat curse all the time, it seems), does not seem to > deserve this type of treatment, based on what we have seen. Sure, > Snape hates MMPPW, but it seems that he was ganged up on by them quite > a bit. and 4 to 1 odds don't look good for MMPPW, as that makes them > out to be bullies. That's the problem, isn't it? We know much more about MPPW than we know about Snape, at least as far as their schooling days are concerned. We know very little about what Snape was like back then. It seems to me that it is unfair to pass judgment that MPPW were horrible bullies and Snape was their victim when we know so less about one party than the other. On the one hand, it does *seem* like MPPW were bullies to Snape. On the other hand, Snape came up with sectumsempra during his school days, which is on an entirely differently level than Ginny's bat-bogey hex, so he's not entirely innocent. It strikes as odd that adult Snape could be *that* different from teenage Snape. It also strikes me that we don't know what the interaction of MPPW and the rest of the student body was. Were those four really bullies? Or did Snape & MPPW have a very grating relationship? While I don't condone what Sirius did, I find it odd that people could pass such final judgment on *the* situation when we don't know much of the details surrounding it, and frankly, I don't really count Lupin's account as altogether *that* accurate either since he probably wasn't in the best of mind during that period. Let's put it this way. If I said that Person A shot Person B, and Person C stepped between Person B and the bullet, then it's easy to pass judgment on Person A. But what if I tell you that Person A was defending himself against Persons B & C, who were breaking into Person A's house or that Persons A & B were both burglars with Person C being incredibly unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. What I'm trying to say is that there's too many spins you can put on a story when you only know the bare facts, and the bare facts are just what we know. ~Ali From reyakittens at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 17:41:31 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:41:31 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135962 > > Also, don't forget that we still don't know why Dumbledore trusted > Snape. Surely the off-hand "explanation" from Dumbledore can't have > been the whole thing, because it would be really lame and would make > Dumbledore look really stupid. And as long as this information is > still out in the open, I do not think that we are in the position to > really judge on which side Snape is. Also, JKR is the mistress' of > red-herrings and plot twists. If Snape were truly as evil as he > currently seems to be, I don't think we would already have known this > in chapter 2 of HBP. > > If he were on Voldemort's, than why did he tell Dumbledore, that the > Dark Mark was becoming clearer again in GoF? Well... for starters.. when reading Spinners End, I think most of didn't believe that he was evil in Chapter 2 and that he was lying to Bella and Narcissa. Now that we know he killed DD, it makes you read Chapter 2 a little differently. I don't think Snape is on Voldemort's side or was on DD's side. Snape is on Snape's side and whatever Snape needs to do to survive. Its why he never tried to help V return to power and leave DD... being on DD's side on that moment suited him. What I find interesting is Snape's adoration of Draco. He appears genuinely concerned for Draco. Regardless of any vow he made, he seems to really care about Draco.. he doesn't even call him Potter and if you notice in the books the Professors always refer to the students by their last name. It's just something I picked up and it almost makes me wonder if the reason he didn't like Narcissa crying is that he was as concerned for Draco. Maybe because Draco can really compete with Harry whereas Snape has his limits. Robyn From 12newmoons at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 17:10:52 2005 From: 12newmoons at gmail.com (kneazlecat54) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:10:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore: Tom/Snape transference? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135963 Hi, I'm an old poster now using a new sn. I haven't posted in quite a while, but what with Book 6 coming out and the Salem conference on the horizon, it's time to get back up to speed! I wonder if DD decided to trust Snape because he felt guilty about his failure to redeem Tom. I think that DD transferred his feelings about Tom onto Snape. DD must have had some regrets about not being able to turn Tom to the good, despite all the evidence that Tom was a lost cause well before he came to Hogwarts. DD would have hoped that his presence and his example (along with others at Hogwarts) might have showed Tom that there was a different way to live. But Tom never allowed himself to change. So when SS came along, DD saw another very gifted student who was already deeply immersed in the dark arts and who showed signs of being vulnerable to recruitment by the supporters of LV. He was a Slytherin, hanging around with a bunch of future DEs and he was a sworn enemy of a group of DD's strongest supporters at Hogwarts. He was already inventing dark spells of his own (isn't that sectusemptra he uses on James in the "worst memory scene, when he waves his wand and slashes James's face open?). So I would bet that DD kept his eye on Snape during his student years. We don't know what happened to Snape right after he left Hogwarts, but we do know that within a year he was spying for LV. DD must have been terribly saddened by seeing another gifted student lost to the dark side. So when Snape came to him and confessed his role in the murders at Godric's Hollow, I would bet that DD wanted to believe him, to believe that not everyone who is attracted to the dark side has to end up there for good. It seems to me that the whole confession scenario is so unlikely that DD must have had an emotional motive for accepting what's really a pretty lame story. Maybe DD hoped that SS was sincere in his confession. But he should have known within a week of Harry's arrival at Hogwarts that SS had never gotten over his driving hatred of James. And given that reality, to trust SS was utmost foolishness. DD was not someone who made a habit of allowing his emotions to blind him to reality (except in the case of Harry, as he admitted). Yet he stubbornly refused to believe what his own eyes told him-that getting revenge on James was more important to SS than either DD or LV. And someone who's driven by hatred can't be a trustworthy enforcer of good. But my guess is that right up to the end, DD wanted to believe that redemption is possible. And I think he's right, in theory (we'll see about RAB, for instance). He always regretted his inability to save Tom Riddle, and so chose to believe in Snape. Sadly, for himself and for Harry, he was deceived. Kneazlecat54 From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:06:02 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:06:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135964 > vmonte: > > > > > I loved how Slughorn mentions in HBP that Hermione gave the correct > answer to a question by basically dictating what she had memorized in > the textbook. > > Why do you suppose Slughorn would use a textbook that is obviously > lousy? It's because it takes something more than book smarts to be a > truly gifted potions master (I'm sure he says this also). > a_svirn: I guess there wasn't any alternative. The WW is fairly conservative, especially when it comes to education ? I mean really; Snape's mother 50 years ago used exactly the same handbook. If Slughorn wanted to give his students a less lousy manual he would have to write it himself. Something he would certainly not bother to do. > vmonte: > I hope that Snape was not "in lust" of Lily (I do not say love > because I don't think he's capable of it). a_svirn: And what does it leave, I wonder? "The marriage of true minds"? From ramyamicro at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 17:26:41 2005 From: ramyamicro at yahoo.com (Ramya) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:26:41 -0000 Subject: Reasons for Patronus change/ A little about JKR and romance In-Reply-To: <20050731190704.60957.qmail@web30014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135965 Lynda says: >So when her patronus changed, and characters were speculating that > it might be a dog, I thought, "a dog, yeah, maybe--but couldn't it > be a werewolf? She was interested in Lupin. I know she was from > the context of the last book." I had the same reaction! Another pre-HBP Tonks/Remus shipper- yay! :) I was hoping that they would get together ever since I read OotP for the first time. And I now have some real hope that Lupin will survive the series, especially in the light of JKR apparently telling that Wormtail will not kill Lupin. Rams From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:13:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:13:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135966 > Colebiancardi: > > see my above post. It is a crime. Sirius knew that Lupin was a > > werewolf - Snape did not. Sirius negected to tell Snape this > > important bit of information - if he did, Snape would not have gone. Alla: Erm... No, we don't know that. We don't know that Snape did not know that Lupin a werewolf, we don't know WHAT Sirius told Snape, we especially don't know that Snape would not have gone if he knew that Remus was a werewolf. In fact, as I said in my previous post it is possible that Snape figured out exactly that - who Lupin was and went there regardless. I have to hunt my post with the questions and there are SO many of them which we don't know about Prank. > Colebiancardi: > > > Snape should not have gone looking, but Sirius should have never > told > > him anything about the Whomping Willow, as he neglected to tell > Snape > > that oh, by the way, Lupin will be a fully-grown werewolf when you > > meet up with him. > Alla: I would like some canon please about the assumption that Sirius neglected to tell Snape about the fact that Lupin was a werewolf. In fact, I would like canon on what EXACTLY Sirius told Snape. :-) Oh, and not Remus words, please, because to me it is quite clear that if Snape figured out who Remus was before going to Shack, he would not tell Remus those interesting news. :-) > > > Colebiancardi: > > > yeah, a reckless brash teenage boy who had murder on his mind, it > > seems. Why else taunt Snape to go after Lupin? Why didn't he tell > > Snape that Lupin was a werewolf? > Alla: Yes, a lot of us are wondering about those quesions often. I submit that canon does NOT provide the answers and JKT herself promised more about backstory of the prank. I always thought that poor, dear victim Snape is really not. After HBP when we were treated to Snape going around creating dark curses, I am almost positive that Snape did many bad things to Marauders. They may have been bullies, but Snape as completely innocent party? Nope, not buying it, not buying it at all. I am prepared to eat a nice crow though after book 7. :-) JMO, Alla. From jakejensen at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 21:22:39 2005 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:22:39 -0000 Subject: purpose of two-way communication mirror Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135967 That silly mirror that Sirius gives HP in OoTP has been the source of a good deal of discussion. Given what we now know, I think the mirror has the following purpose: Regulus Black has the other mirror (perhaps found it in Grimauld place...perhaps he had another...perhaps he even bought it off Mundungus) and will use it to contact HP in book 7. Jake To summarize my previous posts: R.A.B. = Regulus Alphard Black (numerous reasons to think this) The horcrux locket is the locket noone can open in Grimauld Place in OoTP. Mundungus now has the locket (but likely doesn't know what it is), hence the briefcase scene in HBP (where we find out MF has been stealing from Grimauld place again). From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Mon Aug 1 21:23:32 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:23:32 -0000 Subject: Fawkes and Bill's injuries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > When I first read HBP I was convinced that Madam Pomfrey or someone > would have Fawkes come and cry over Bill's werewolf injuries, thus > healing them. I understand Fawkes was in mourning for Dumbledore > though...did anyone else think this while reading the book? > Snapeo'phile Demetra: I thought the same thing when I was reading that chapter. I actually wondered whether Harry was going to recall Fawkes healing him after the basilisk. This scene also reminded me of JKR's comments that parts of the POA movie 'foreshadow' things in future books. Lupin had scars on his face in the movie, but he is not described that way in the book. Now in book 6, Bill gets attacked by a werewolf and will, presumably, have facial scars as a result. Demetra From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:28:10 2005 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:28:10 -0000 Subject: Why was Snape teaching DADA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135969 anuja: 1.because Dumbledore finally tusts him so much that he thinks it wont do any harm 2.because he cant (yet again)find a DADA teacher but knows he can find another one for potions.so after getting a new teacher for potions he had no choice but to let Snape teach DADA? 3.or because he always intended to get the memory from Slughorn and so needed him at Hogwarts? Tammy: 4. Snape told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow, that bonded him to either help Draco kill Dumbledore, kill Dumbledore himself, or to die. Seeing as how Dumbledore knows Snape will be dead or gone by the end of the year (I agree with the Dumbledore-made-Snape-kill-him-to-get-in-with-Voldemort camp) and therefore granted Snape's last wish - to teach DADA. It shows LV that Dumbledore trusts Snape completely at last (meaning Snape has done his job well), and gets Sluggy to Hogwarts to teach the last memory. nobody's rib: 5. Dumbledore had reasons to mildly distrust Snape, and Dumbledore was willing to give Snape DADA to test his hunch. explanation: Better to see if Snape's on LV's side, the Order's side, or just-plain-Snape's side sooner rather than later, and especially under the somewhat controlled situation in Hogwarts. Not to mention that we're at war, lives are at stake, the Order has been betrayed before, and now is the time for action. It's all about choices, and Dumbledore might have been forcing walk-the-fence!Snape to choose a side, showing his true colors. [Dumbledore not trust Snape completely? But he always *says*... BUT, what about hindsight such as Snape's tutoring Harry wasn't the best idea. Not to mention, how much does Dumbledore *really* trust Snape -- not just *say* he trusts Snape to perhaps help Snape-dislikers (such as the Marauders) trust Snape and better unite houses, or perpetuate the appearance of doubleagent!Snape -- if he's spent years mistrusting Snape's willpower if surrounded by DADA/DA? How much do you really trust a dry-alcoholic if you never allow him/her near a bottle of booze?] Agreeing with Tammy, I also find Dumbledore-made-Snape-kill-him-to-get-in-with-Voldemort camp interesting. I also appreciate JKR creating a possible double red herring. SS: We think Snape's a bad guy, but HRH's focus on this points us away from Quirrel. (Fool me once, shame on me.) Now we think Snape's not purely on LV's side, and Dumbledore and the Order's focus in this (plus our, and part of HRH's trust in their opinion) points us to anyone but Snape -- when Snape was a bad guy all along. (Fool me twice...) My favorite (current) thoughts about Snape involve the words of the Unbreakable Vow. (I hope I'm not covering old news.) Whether acting as a secret agent for either side or a double agent on only his own side, did he have a choice but to agree to the vow? I can't think of anyway he could have gotten out of it without raising suspicion. PLUS (and this is my favorite part) consider the wording of the vow. The first two parts, using the exact same wording but with different interpretation) were things he could have already have intended to do for Dumbledore or for his own best interests (1. watch over Draco as he attempts LV's plan, and 2. to the best of his ability, prevent Draco from harm). As for the third part of the Vow, there's Snape's pause... "should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail... will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord had ordered Draco to perform?" I see two things here: (1) Snape (as a secret or double agent) has no choice but to break his cover (not a good idea, especially in the presence of LV-supporters) or go along with it, knowing Dumbledore will deem the sacrifice necessary for the greater good (even if Snape's only concerned with Dumbledore's opinion to maintain double-agent status); or (2) Snape infiltrates Narcissa's mind in choosing the wording for part three. There's so many caveats in the phrasing! "should it *prove* *necessary*", "if it *seems* Draco *will* *fail*"... Not to ask for the definition of "is", what would be *proof*; when would it be *necessary*; what does *seems* entail; why use the future tense *will*; what exactly would it mean to *fail*?... Who gets to define these concepts? Throughout HBP, doesn't it seem there's proof that Draco is failing and Snape reprimands him for making choices that will lead to failure? And doesn't that umbrella term "necessary" put the whole of part three up for personal translation? In this light, does this Unbreakable Vow really mean anything? Is it really possible for Snape to break it? (or is this setting the stage for a triple red herring?? augh!) CASSODMAC-Y!! (Can Anything Snape Says or Does Mean Anything Concrete -- Yet?) -- nobody's rib, who loves Snape theorizing yet wonders if doing so blinds her to more important clues or connections From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 21:26:27 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:26:27 -0500 Subject: Sirius' attempted murder of Snape In-Reply-To: <1122889887.1548.43910.m28@yahoogroups.com> References: <1122889887.1548.43910.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd0508011426723b0afc@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135970 Valky says: I have to defend that I think you have that entirely wrong Lisa. The prank couldn't fairly be called an attempted murder. I mean, look again. Sirius plays with that werewolf every month, it's his favourite past time. Does he think that a half competent wizard will survive an encounter with his friend Lupin.. *yes*, he *does*, he's *arrogant*, prideful, he thinks weekends with werewolves is something *everyone* should do to build character. I'm not saying he's right about all that, but I think it's pretty darn obvious he wasn't trying to murder Snape. Yeah yeah maybe it's a warped mind that thinks it, but it is *Sirius'* mind. ================= Lisa responds: My problem with that explanation is that Sirius, James and Peter are unregistered animagi -- they became such so that they could hang around with Lupin and not be in danger. Therefore, they all knew that danger existed to anyone else. We're told that werewolves will attack anyone, even their best friends, when they are "under the influence," so to speak, and a bite from a werewolf at the very least makes another werewolf, and at worst kills the prey. James obviously thought the danger of death was enough that he needed to save Snape -- and Snape thought the danger of death was enough that he owed James a life-debt. In that light, I really can't see how sending Snape into (below) the Whomping Willow could be viewed as anything but attempting to dispose of Snape for good. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:29:28 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 14:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801212929.7629.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135971 > > vmonte: > > > I hope that Snape was not "in lust" of Lily (I do > not say love > > because I don't think he's capable of it). > > a_svirn: > > And what does it leave, I wonder? "The marriage of > true minds"? > who knows? maybe snape felt that way about lilly. I guess we will find out in book seven if that ever happened. laurie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jakejensen at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 21:30:13 2005 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:30:13 -0000 Subject: Bill W as DADA in book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135972 Does anyone else think that Bill is going to be the DADA in book 7? His job as a curse breaker running around adventuring for Gringotts gives him the experience, plus he is a very popular character (and JKR might like to use him some more). I just get the impression that he would be a good DADA and that maybe the whole end of HBP was setting him up to be so (i.e., a little to injured to keep running around curse breaking, etc). Jake From verosomm at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:09:15 2005 From: verosomm at yahoo.com (verosomm) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:09:15 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny In-Reply-To: <1a2.38b5dc5a.301fc968@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135973 Rizza: >>I don't understand why so many readers are so dissatisfied with the >>Harry/Ginny relationship. Christina: > I've been a Harry/Ginny shipper since day one. It's always made > sense to me, and it's always seemed like the logical choice. That > said, I absolutely *hated* the way H/G was handled in HBP. My > main issue is with the way Ginny's character was treated in > general. In my mind, Ginny is written in HBP as SuperAwesome! > Ginny-- aka, every Mary Sue I've ever read. She is without flaw > which makes her, IMO, boring. I felt as though JKR was screaming > to us, "Look! Ginny is so cool! She's sassy and classy and funny > and athletic and doesn't everyone just LOVE her?" Actually, I DIDN'T think she was super-Ginny; her "flaw," not withstanding that it helped her positive traits stick out and got Harry to finally notice her, is that she wasn't "true to her heart," so to speak, for quite some time. Don't have the book right in front of me, but she tells Harry something like she always liked him and never really gave up, yet we know she dated two different boys for significant periods of time. This is a mistake that I think a lot of people, esp. teens and those in their early 20's make; they really like someone but they will "settle" for someone else if the first person's feelings aren't reciprocated, or "settle" for someone who's not necessarily a good match for them if they are single because they are so desperate to be part of a couple. That is, to me, a big character flaw that I have personal experience with... I even married on of those "settled for" men because I wanted to not be single anymore, and somewhere deep down convinced myself that it was ok because I liked him and even loved him platonically and was physically attracted to him, so why not? Because I ended up extremely unhappy, lost myself inside the relationship and ended up divorced, that's why. Fortunately, I am now happy and content and having a lot of first & second dates but no relationships, because I'm waiting for someone who really is a good match for me, not just someone who I like and seems nice. So I certainly learned from the experience, but I definitely think that it is a huge character flaw to be in a relationship just for the sake of being one... I'm not condoning Ginny sitting around pining for Harry, but there are ways to "get a life" without it involving romance with the wrong person. And I think Ginny realizes how content she is, and how secure the relationship feels (leaning on Harry's legs is a huge act of emotional intimacy, in my mind) and that is why she doesn't "act up" when Harry breaks up with her... she, first of all, will "kick a**" as someone so eloquently put it (sorry I can't remember who; too many posts to keep track of), in Book 7, and second, she's figured out about timing. If she and Harry are going to be together, it will be when the time is right, and even if he's WRONG (which I really think he is; I think his need for Ginny's, as well as the others', help is stronger than his want for her to "be safe") she knows, somehow that the timing will never be right if they don't agree at the time about whether or not they should be together. She's also got a bit of a temper (flying into Zacharias Smith after Quidditich), like her mother and Ron, and can be catty (Fleur's behavior, while not very nice AT ALL, was met on its level by giving her a bad nickname behind her back, and telling Hermione not to embarrass herself re: Quidditich, was quite arrogant, even if the intentions were defending Harry; on the other hand, Hermione was being very insensitive as Harry already felt terrible about what had happened). Christina, I (hopefully)politely disagree with you about liking the plain Ginny better, but I absolutely agree that this relationship could have been shown a bit more meat... a paragraph or two about the burrow, an on-stage joke or prank of Ginny's, and perhaps a better description of Ginny's physical appearance, since she's supposed to be so pretty. We know long, red hair & brown eyes from various references, and "small," according to the twins, but is the hair curly, straight, wavy? Is she small because she's the youngest and a girl, or is she short and/ or slight (most likely since she plays seeker well)? Veronica, who is a H/G and R/H shipper all the way From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:31:13 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 14:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801213114.84867.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135974 An inconsistency that I find a bit strange: In HBP, when Harry hears about the little boy dying from a werewolf attack, he is extremely shocked and says that werewolves usually don't kill people, just bite them to infect them. Presumably this behavior is governed by the nature of the curse; like a virus, it exists to perpetuate itself. But if that's the case, why was Snape in danger of dying? Everyone seems to agree that he was; even DD says that James saved Snape's life. But why? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:33:21 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:33:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius' attempted murder of Snape In-Reply-To: <14262fbd0508011426723b0afc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135975 > Lisa responds: In that light, I really can't see how sending Snape into > (below) the Whomping Willow could be viewed as anything but attempting > to dispose of Snape for good. Alla: OK, I have to ask that question again - how exactly did Sirius SENT Snape to Shack? Did he tied him up? Did he put him under Imperio? Don't you think that Snape bares at least some share of responsibility for going there in the first place? Oh, and here is my favorite question of all times why would Snape stop and listen to ANYTHING Snape says? Don't you think that Snape, smart as he is would view anything Sirius says as suspect? JMO, Alla From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Aug 1 21:36:49 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:36:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135976 >madam_marozi: >An inconsistency that I find a bit strange: In HBP, >when Harry hears about the little boy dying from a >werewolf attack, he is extremely shocked and says that >werewolves usually don't kill people, just bite them >to infect them.... Christina: That *is* very interesting. I can't find it though- what page is it on? >Alla: > >Erm... No, we don't know that. We don't know that Snape did not know >that Lupin a werewolf, we don't know WHAT Sirius told Snape, we >especially don't know that Snape would not have gone if he knew that >Remus was a werewolf. Christina: If Snape knew that Lupin was a werewolf, why in the *world* would he go purposefully into the Shrieking Shack to face him? If he knew in advance that Lupin was a werewolf, he would have had nothing to gain from going into the Shrieking Shack (there were better, much more Slytherin-like ways to take Lupin down) and everything to lose (ie, his life). >Alla: >I would like some canon please about the assumption that Sirius >neglected to tell Snape about the fact that Lupin was a werewolf. In >fact, I would like canon on what EXACTLY Sirius told Snape. :-) Last page of chapter 18, PoA. First of all, it's in the book, which makes it canon. Whether or not Lupin is telling the truth (or knows the whole truth) is a matter of interpretation, but I think it's more of a sure thing than most of the other topics we debate on this list. Because Snape and Sirius were *both* listening to Lupin's account of the event, and neither of them take issue with it, I count it as fact. Both sides of the story--Sirius and Snape--are present for Lupin's account. It actually surprised me when I was reading that neither of them piped in with subtle "corrections," although Sirius does interrupt to reiterate that it "served him [Snape] right." >Alla: >Oh, and not Remus words, please, because to me it is quite clear that >if Snape figured out who remus was before going to Shack, he would >not tell Remus those interesting news. :-) Christina: Why not? If Snape knew that Lupin was a werewolf, I think the *first* thing he would do would be to march right up to the Marauders and say, "Guess what, guys, I know your little secret, and you'd better stay out of my face or I'll tell the whole school and anyone else who'll listen." Or better yet, he might make some kind of offhand comment to another Slytherin, "Hey, did you notice that the Lupin kid is always sick at the full moon?" and bam, that kid talks to some other kids and figures it out, or mentions it to his parents and that's the end of Lupin at Hogwarts--and nobody could even trace it back to Snape! Even *better*--Snape prints out hundreds of "The Lupin kid's a werewolf" flyers and stealthly scatters them around the school. Lupin's secret is out, Snape gets to snicker in his little corner at the downfall of the Marauders, and Snape escapes any sort of punishment. I find it impossible to believe that Snape would sit on such juicy information (about his enemies, no less) from his own free will. >Alla: >Yes, a lot of us are wondering about those quesions often. I submit >that canon does NOT provide the answers and JKT herself promised more >about backstory of the prank. Christina: True, but I don't think what we already know is ambiguous at all. What we *don't* know, what we have yet to find out, is what exactly happened in the aftermath of the prank. How did Dumbledore punish the boys? How did Dumbledore get Snape to keep quiet? >Alla: >After >HBP when we were treated to Snape going around creating dark curses, >I am almost positive that Snape did many bad things to Marauders. Christina: I'm sure he did too, but how much damage could he really have inflicted? James and Sirius attacked him in OotP because they were *bored.* Look at the language JKR used in the chapter, "said Sirius viciously," "Wormtail sniggered shrilly," "said Sirius coolly," "said James coldly," "Wormtail was on his feet now, watching hungrily" (all from "Snape's Worst Memory"). Even Harry noticed that "Snape was clearly unpopular." Sirius and James's delight with the realization that Snape was available for bullying suggests that it happened on a routine basis. (OotP, US page 645) "This'll liven you up, Padfoot," said James quietly. "Look who it is..." Sirius's head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabit. "Excellent," he said softly. "Snivellus." (end quote) In my mind, this roughly translates to, "Look Sirius, our favorite pasttime!" They even have their own nickname for Snape. I don't doubt that Snape was into the dark arts as a kid, and I don't doubt that he used his knowledge of the dark arts against the Marauders, but I think it's pretty clear that Snape was a victim at the hands of the Marauders more often than they were victims to him. Christina From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 21:36:39 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:36:39 -0500 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: <1122889887.1548.43910.m28@yahoogroups.com> References: <1122889887.1548.43910.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05080114366414ec20@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135977 > bboyminn writes, in pertinent part: > > So, I think we need to proceed with caution. Calling Sirius a murderer > or attempted murderer, and using similar harsh language is a little > over the top, and we can not absolve Snape of all guilt in the affair > either. Snape clearly broke rules put in place for his protection. He > went into a tunnel that was SUBSTANTIALLY guarded and protected from > entry. There is no way Snape can claim he is an 'innocent victim' here. > > So, I'm not absolving anyone of any guilt. Sirius made a young > implusive and dangerous choice, and so did Snape. There is no > indication that Sirius truly intended Snape to be killed. He was > certainly short sighted, rash, and irresponsible, but we don't know > for a fact that his intent was for Snape to be killed. Likely, he > never thought that far ahead; impulsive headstrong teens are not know > for being farsighted. So they are all quilty, and I'm sure they were > all punished. Certainly not punished in the way Snape wanted, but > punished none the less. ====================== Lisa/SassyMomOfThree responds: Mmmmm ... I don't see it as "over the top" at all; and I don't see any way to justify prosecuting the victim. Saying that Snape is partially guilty for nearly causing his own death is akin to saying that any given woman deserved to be raped because she was dressing provocatively. In the real world, Sirius would've been prosecuted for manslaughter if Snape had been killed, or for reckless endangerment at the very least, had he not. Further, Sirius has never shown remorse for the situation that we've seen, and continues his hatred of Snape through the bitter end. Are they "all guilty" of something? Sure! But Snape was not endangering anyone else's life in that situation. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 21:49:23 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:49:23 +0100 Subject: Voldemort's Unbreakable Vow? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135978 Just an idle thought, but did Voldemort make an unbreakable vow with snape that lily would be unharmed? If so, breaking it might have led to the AK going wrong and bouncing back. Chris Alternate History: http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:51:44 2005 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:51:44 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135979 Have been lurking a bit now and have a thought of a possible horcrux. Dumbledore says that Voldemort uses things that are significant to him or trophies. Well, he has a trophy in the school--his award for special services. As we don't the actual process of creating horcrux, this is speculation, but what if when he came back to the school to apply for the DADA job, he turned his trophy into a horcrux. It seems something Voldemort would get a kick out of, having one hidden right under Dumbledore's nose. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 22:01:02 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:01:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135980 > Christina: > > If Snape knew that Lupin was a werewolf, why in the *world* would he > go purposefully into the Shrieking Shack to face him? If he knew in > advance that Lupin was a werewolf, he would have had nothing to gain > from going into the Shrieking Shack (there were better, much more > Slytherin-like ways to take Lupin down) and everything to lose (ie, > his life). Alla: How about because Snape may want to kill him? And what is more importantly - he may BELIEVE that he knows how to kill him, Dark Art expert he is. > Christina: I find it > impossible to believe that Snape would sit on such juicy information > (about his enemies, no less) from his own free will. Alla: Sit on information? I believe he intented to act on such information with VERY painful consequences for Remus indeed. > Christina: > > True, but I don't think what we already know is ambiguous at all. Alla: I disagree. Please help me out, if you think that no ambiguity is present whatsoever. 1. What IS the reason for animosity between Snape and Marauders? There is "..." in the text,when Sirius says that he was going around, trying to get us expelled. I think he stops short of saying something else for plot related reasons. 2. WHY Snape stopped and listened to Sirius? Are you seeing them having many friendly conversations together? 3. Why Snape is shown reading werewolf essay AND why exactly he assigned the same essay to Harry's class? 4. Who told James about the Prank? 5. In fact,where were James, Peter and Lily during the Prank? 6. Where was Sirius during the Prank? When I will find my old post, I will post more questions. NO, I don't think we know everything about that night, not even close. > Christina: > > I'm sure he did too, but how much damage could he really have > inflicted? James and Sirius attacked him in OotP because they were > *bored.* Alla: How much damage? It seems to me that his Sectusemptra for example is rather nasty thing. In light of the fact that person's memory could be modified by that person I find it possible that Snape modified his memory by diminishing the level of his retaliation and what looked as cut on James cheek could have been a rather nasty wound, for example Christina: > I think it's pretty clear that Snape was a victim at the hands of the > Marauders more often than they were victims to him. > Alla: It is far from clear to me. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From nobodysrib at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 22:18:20 2005 From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:18:20 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135981 wrote: > Dumbledore says that Voldemort uses things that are significant to > him or trophies. Well, he has a trophy in the school--his award for > special services. What if when he came back to the school > to apply for the DADA job, he turned his trophy into a horcrux. It > seems something Voldemort would get a kick out of, having one hidden > right under Dumbledore's nose. I love this! Horcrux/trophy --> literal trophy. Ocham's Razor! Voldemort might predict Dumbledore's eventual suspicions about horcruxes and DADA applications and choose the more obvious (thus less obvious to Dumbledore?) object. Plus, it's a very Tom Riddle-ied object, just like the diary. Plus, it's stored at one of the safest places in the wizarding world. Not to mention, who would know more about horcruxes (other than Voldmort or Dumbledore) than a DADA prof? But for a DADA prof to suspect a trophy horcrux, s/he'd probably have to stick around Hogwarts for more than one year, and Voldemort (presumably) ensured this wouldn't happen. Plus, (speculation...), if Harry does not return to school for study, this would give him a reason to return to Hogwarts (not as a student) during Book 7. (And it seems to me that we've gotta see some of Hogwarts (if not much of, if not the series climax...) in Book 7. -- nobody's rib From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 1 22:26:34 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:26:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135983 - > Alla: > > How about because Snape may want to kill him? And what is more > importantly - he may BELIEVE that he knows how to kill him, Dark Art > expert he is. and as you like to ask - where's the cannon for that? The only thing that we DO know, according to both Sirius & Lupin, is that Snape was looking for ways to get them expelled. Not kill > > I disagree. Please help me out, if you think that no ambiguity is > present whatsoever. > > 1. What IS the reason for animosity between Snape and Marauders? > There is "..." in the text,when Sirius says that he was going > around, trying to get us expelled. I think he stops short of saying > something else for plot related reasons. they hated each other - different houses - and in OotP - Sirius states to Harry "James & Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things, you can understand that, can't you? I think James was everything that Snape wanted to be - he was popular, he was good at Quidditch, good at pretty much everything. And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James - whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry - always hated the Dark Arts" there you go. Just like Harry did not like Draco, this was it. The difference is that James was pure-blood & Snape was not. > > 2. WHY Snape stopped and listened to Sirius? Are you seeing them > having many friendly conversations together? As I stated before, perhaps Sirius *taunted* him. The whole coward bit. Or perhaps a setup with Sirius & Peter - where they are discussing this out loud, so that Snape will overhear - I believe Harry has done this with Draco before. Not cannon, of course. What we do know is that Sirius told Snape, whether it is directly or indirectly - that we do not know. > > 3. Why Snape is shown reading werewolf essay AND why exactly he > assigned the same essay to Harry's class? The teen Snape was reading a werewolf essay, probably because it was an assigment given in class. Even in PoA, we learn the students will learn about werewolves...leading into the adult Snape: This has to do with the fact he believes that Lupin is not trustworthy - he still felt to that day, that Lupin was in on the *prank* "So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because he thought you were in on the joke?" "That's right," sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. Severus Snape was pulling off the Invisbility Cloak, his wand directly pointing at Lupin. PoA - end of chapter 18. Snape never got over it - probably because it caused him to have a life debt with James. > > 4. Who told James about the Prank? > Sirius or Peter - I could see Peter *boasting* how Snape was going to get his, due to Sirius's *brilliant* plan > 5. In fact,where were James, Peter and Lily during the Prank? > well, we know James was busy saving Snape's neck during the *prank*. Or are you referring to the scene where Sirius discloses the WW's secret? Lily didn't start dating James until 7th year. This happened in the 6th year. I don't think she wanted much to do with James at that point. > 6. Where was Sirius during the Prank? > Does it matter? > When I will find my old post, I will post more questions. > > NO, I don't think we know everything about that night, not even close. > > > Christina: > > > > I'm sure he did too, but how much damage could he really have > > inflicted? James and Sirius attacked him in OotP because they were > > *bored.* > > Alla: > > How much damage? It seems to me that his Sectusemptra for example is > rather nasty thing. > > In light of the fact that person's memory could be modified by that > person I find it possible that Snape modified his memory by > diminishing the level of his retaliation and what looked as cut on > James cheek could have been a rather nasty wound, for example > > Christina: > > I think it's pretty clear that Snape was a victim at the hands of > the > > Marauders more often than they were victims to him. > > > > Alla: > > It is far from clear to me. > > > Just my opinion of course, > > Alla. colebiancardi back again: Well, Lily seems to think that James is an arrogant, bullying toe-rag. And don't forget the whole conversation before she tells him off - "Leave him alone" Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. "What's he done to you?" "Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean..." also, Lupin states in chp 29, OotP "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?" so, it seems that both the pensive memory & the confessions of Lupin & Sirius when Harry confronts them about this scene, that Snape was bullied by them - a lot. And yes, Snape probably hexed the crap out of them, but who is to say that wasn't in self-defense -- most of the time? You bring up the cuts on James face - that happened AFTER James attacked Snape, not before. interesting side note for those who think that Lily dated Snape - next page....when James is yelling at Snape to apologize to Lily for calling her a mudblood... "I don't want you to make him apologize", Lily shouted, rounding on James. "You're as bad as he is..." since it seems that Snape never did clean up his act, but James did, I doubt that Lily would go out with someone who is nasty to her. And somehow, I can't imagine James wanting to date Lily if her previous *boyfriend* was Snape..... colebiancardi From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 1 22:27:05 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:27:05 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's flawed plan Message-ID: <007201c596e8$2649d880$d4b9acce@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135984 Eggplant Said >But it's clear that Dumbledore did not know about that Unbreakable vow: >Draco said " He [Snape] hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my >mother_" >Dumbledore replied "Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but_" >But we readers of Chapter 2 know Draco was right and Dumbledore was >wrong. Not only did Snape promise to aid Draco in his task of >smuggling Death Eaters into Hogwarts he even made an unbreakable vow. >Even without that dialogue we could have guessed Dumbledore did not >know, to trust somebody who you knew had made a vow like that would be .insane. CathyD now: Funny, when I read that I was (and still am) totally convinced Dumbledore did know of the Vow. He could hardly tell Draco, could he, and have Draco go running back to Voldemort and tell him that Snape and DD are in cahoots together? Dumbledore knew Snape made the Vow, because he is totally aware that to live inside the DE world, as Snape is at the moment, those things are going to arise. In GoF he asked Snape if he was prepared...if he was ready to *re-enter* Voldemort's service. In the Pensive scene we know Snape is spying at 'great personal risk' to himself. Dumbledore and Snape know what may be required of him. Snape was going to have to do as he saw fit to ensure his cover was not blown - and report to Dumbledore to keep him always in the loop. Dumbledore needs Snape as a spy among the DEs/close to LV for the duration of this war. He can't afford to lose him through a lose word to Draco. I know this is five today...but if you knew how many I wanted to reply to and didn't, you'd give me some credit. ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Aug 1 22:28:16 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:28:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135985 > Christina: > > Why not? If Snape knew that Lupin was a werewolf, I think the *first* > thing he would do would be to march right up to the Marauders and say, > "Guess what, guys, I know your little secret, and you'd better stay > out of my face or I'll tell the whole school and anyone else who'll > listen." Or better yet, he might make some kind of offhand comment to > another Slytherin, "Hey, did you notice that the Lupin kid is always > sick at the full moon?" and bam, that kid talks to some other kids and > figures it out, or mentions it to his parents and that's the end of > Lupin at Hogwarts--and nobody could even trace it back to Snape! Even > *better*--Snape prints out hundreds of "The Lupin kid's a werewolf" > flyers and stealthly scatters them around the school. Lupin's secret > is out, Snape gets to snicker in his little corner at the downfall of > the Marauders, and Snape escapes any sort of punishment. I find it > impossible to believe that Snape would sit on such juicy information > (about his enemies, no less) from his own free will. I think the reason why Snape wouldn't use those tactics is that they are too anonymous. Snape is someone who is obsessed with seeming powerful in front of others. He practically salivated over the thought of getting a medal in PoA, the way he derives enjoyment from lording his power over students, the way he reacts to the word coward, the way he insists on 'Professor' being every third word out of students mouth, it all points to someone who has serious status/control/power issues. Now imagine that person as an arrogant teenager and is it a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that he would go after the werewolf, seeking to either kill or capture it? Imagine the personal glory, imagine the name he would make for himself, imagine the response he would get from the other students. Even more so if the werewolf was one of your hated bullys. I think Snape would much rather go after Lupin personally than using anonymous methods that won't garner any accolades. His ego wouldn't allow anything else. phoenixgod2000 From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 22:38:11 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:38:11 -0000 Subject: Fawkes [, Homorphus Charm,] and Bill's injuries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > HI Potterphiles! > When I first read HBP I was convinced that Madam Pomfrey or someone > would have Fawkes come and cry over Bill's werewolf injuries, thus > healing them. I understand Fawkes was in mourning for Dumbledore > though...did anyone else think this while reading the book? > > Snapeo'phile I think Fawkes probably only responds to Dumbledore or to someone who is being intensely loyal to Dumbledore. But, I wonder, why doesn't someone try the Homorphus Charm on Bill? Or for that matter why don't they try it on Lupin? Check this out in COS, Chapter 10. Lockhart is speaking to Harry about the story of his encounter with a werewolf: "...I pounced -- like this --slammed him to the floor -- thus -- with one hand, I managed to hold him down -- with my other, I put my wand to his throat -- I then screwed up my remaining strength and performed the immensely complicated Homorphus Charm...the fur vanished -- the fangs shrank -- and he turned back into a man. Simple, yet effective -- and another village will remember me forever as the hero who delivered them from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks." If the village has been delivered from its monthly terror, it appears that the cure is a permanent one. As we know, the ugly old Armenian warlock who actually performed that spell has long since been Obliviated into forgetfulness by Lockhart. But someone somewhere must know how to do the charm. Why hasn't the Wizarding World taken advantage of it to cure people who have been bitten and survived? Merrylinks From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 22:59:41 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] James saved Snape's life incident & Prank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801225941.51296.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135987 Alla: How about because Snape may want to kill him? And what is more importantly - he may BELIEVE that he knows how to kill him, Dark Art expert he is. Juli: You're right, if the Prank was in their 6th year, then it was after the OWLS, and at their DADA owl they were asked about how to recognize (and I suppose kill) a werewolf. Alla: I disagree. Please help me out, if you think that no ambiguity is present whatsoever. 1. What IS the reason for animosity between Snape and Marauders? There is "..." in the text, when Sirius says that he was going around, trying to get us expelled. I think he stops short of saying something else for plot related reasons. Juli: I bet they tried some nasty curses on each other, Snape had his septemsupra (or whatever it's called), I'm sure James and Sirius had some curses on their own. It seems their personalities were completely opposite: James and Sirius were pure blood, and they didn?t care about it, Snape was Half-Blood and wanted to be pure blood; J&S were in Gryffindor SS in Slytherine; J&S were handsome and popular, SS was ugly and unpopular; J&S hated the Dark Arts, SS loved them; How could they possibly get along? They are "meant" to be enemies, they are just too different to even try to get along, there's just not a chance. Alla: 2. WHY Snape stopped and listened to Sirius? Are you seeing them having many friendly conversations together? Juli: I agree, if my enemy for 6 years tells me "go and check out the shack", I must know there's something else besides. Snape surely didn't say "OK, I'll go, yeah, I bet it's really cool and we're all going to be friends". Alla: 3. Why Snape is shown reading werewolf essay AND why exactly he assigned the same essay to Harry's class? Juli: Didn't he want the 3rd years to find out that Remus was a werewolf? He couldn't tell them because he had promised Dumbledore, but if they found out on their own, then no problem. Alla: 4. Who told James about the Prank? Juli: If you ever find out let me know ;) Alla: 5. In fact, where were James, Peter and Lily during the Prank? 6. Where was Sirius during the Prank? Juli: I think Sirius must have been at the Shack, making sure it was safe for Snape. I think Sirius just wanted to give him a scare, he must have been there as Padfoot, keeping Snape safe. I believe that even if they hated each other, Sirius wouldn't try to kill him, to make him piss his pants, yes, but not murder, Sirius had spent his life fighting against his family's love for the DA, he wouldn't do it, he wouldn't fall so low Christina: I think it's pretty clear that Snape was a victim at the hands of the Marauders more often than they were victims to him. Juli: I think both of them (SS and MWPP) cursed each other every time they could, they weren't bullies (bullies pick on those who were weaker, Snape isn't weak, neither are MWPP). JMO of course Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 23:17:51 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050801231751.36815.qmail@web33715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135988 Marozi: > > >werewolves usually don't kill people, just bite > them > >to infect them.... > > Christina: > > That *is* very interesting. I can't find it though- > what page is it > on? Marozi again: I had to hunt for it, but I found it: p. 473. Alla: > 5. In fact, where were James, Peter and Lily during > the Prank? > > 6. Where was Sirius during the Prank? Marozi: Yeah, I've wondered about that too. Because weren't they usually with him in animal form? Were they not that night for some reason? Or maybe they were there and James transformed back to get Snape out of there when he heard him coming? You're right, there's a lot we don't know about it. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 23:33:28 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:33:28 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny's romance: canon pros and cons (was SHIP: Where is the canon...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135989 Grindiloe wrote: "Okay, Harry and Ginny, the romance... I don't see why we need to SEE exactly what happens between Harry and Ginny." Del replies: Why? Because it is in the WAY two people interact that you can determine what kind of relationship they have and whether they are happy together. I'll be blunt: many beaten wives claim to be happy, they claim to have a beautiful relationship (and very often they even *think* it), they can have an apparently very intimate and loving marriage. Sometimes they do show signs in public that something is not quite right, but it's most often what happens when they are ALONE with their partner that determines whether things are all right or not. So in order to agree that Ginny is truly making Harry happier than he would be without her, I need (among other things) to see how the two are interacting when they are alone. Grindieloe wrote: "After all, in mature relationships, normally the intimate moments are not completely shown to others. It's what is not seen that builds the intimacy between people." Del replies: I disagree. Both what we do in public and what we do in private builds the intimacy between my husband and me. Grindieloe wrote: "With that being said, we have to remember that HP is a children's series as well. JK cannot possibly write the juicy details for us when children are reading! The younger readers would be completely turned off by too much of the overt romance." Del replies: 1. I NEVER asked for juicy details. Never ever. And I definitely don't want them. 2. Either Harry and Ginny are ONLY kissing and having sex, in which case I don't consider their relationship to be deep and meaningful at all. OR they do many other things that could perfectly be said in front of little kids, in which case I'd like to see THAT. Grindieloe wrote: "She gave enough details for the older readers to be able to "read between the lines"" Del replies: No she didn't, or there wouldn't be so many of us complaining that we can't even find the lines that we are supposed to read between! Grindieloe wrote: "2. The first kiss and the (who knows how long) walk around the grounds afterwards. Can't we GUESS what is happening between them? We don't need to be shown that part. It just isn't necessary." Del replies: If you want to play it that way... Here's one guess: Harry was so happy to have won Ginny over that he let his hormones rage too much, and forced Ginny to have sex with him even though she didn't really want to. But because it was their first time for both, neither realised that what happened was technically a rape, and Ginny thinks it's the way it happens normally to every girl in love. If you think it's exxagerated, think again: it does happens to a lot of kids. And if you think it doesn't concur with the canon, then show me the canon that says that it can't have happened. We keep hearing about how Harry is so happy to be with Ginny, and we know that Ginny loves Harry. So it COULD very well have happened. Grindieloe wrote: "3. Harry daydreams about other times that he spent with Ginny by the lake. This lends the reader to believe that they are able to spend time together canoodling. " Del replies: What's canoodling? And yes *Harry* daydreams about that time. But what about Ginny?? We do NOT know that SHE is remembering that time fondly. Maybe Harry liked it so much because he got his way with Ginny. Grindieloe wrote: "4. The mention of "less time together" when Ginny is studying for her OWLS. This makes me think that they had been spending much time together." Del replies: Spending time together is not a sure sign of happiness. Abusive spouses want their partner to spend all their time with them, that doesn't mean that the relationship is healthy, nor that the partner is happy. Grindieloe wrote: "5. Ginny leaning against Harry's legs and relaxing. This shows true comfort and intimacy. Could you see Harry and Cho doing this!? I think not! Their relationship is progressing because they are becoming more and more comfortable being together this way." Del replies: Abused partners do that all the time. It's a sign of intimacy for sure, but not necessarily a sign of a wonderful, or even healthy, relationship. Grindieloe wrote: "6. Harry being yelled at by Hermione for "distracting" Ginny while she was studying." Del replies: Where is that one? I can't find it. Grindieloe wrote: "7. Ginny kissing Harry goodnight. It is mentioned casually which leads me to believe that again, they are very intimate and comfortable with each other. " Del replies: 1. It's not mentioned *that* casually: it's expressly pointed out that Ron averts his eyes. 2. Most people kiss their partners good night, even when the relationship is satisfying. 3. See below for counter-arguments that I found in that scene. Grindieloe wrote: "8. Ginny is the only one that can lead Harry away from the body. He doesn't even know it is her until later." Del replies: So? I don't understand that one. Grindieloe wrote: "9. Ginny keeps nudging Harry during the funeral, showing a connections between the two." Del replies: If it had been Hermione sitting next to Harry instead of Ginny, it would have been Hermione nudging Harry. Not significant at all IMO. Grindieloe wrote: "10. Harry includes Ginny in thoughts and conversations that would normally be reserved for only Hermione and Ron." Del replies: Examples? Grindieloe wrote: "I see this as a true, real, intimate, wonderful relationship." Del replies: Well, of course it's a true, real, intimate relationship. Those two are going out together! But wonderful? I still ask to SEE that, not be TOLD about it. Time for the counter-examples now. 1. The Kiss: not a word about Ginny, what she looks like after the kiss, what she does, nothing. 2. Not a word about how Ginny feels about the relationship. She's finally got the guy she's always wanted, and yet we don't hear a word about how it makes her feel. And we are not told that it affects her behaviour either. 3. When Harry sees the Dark Mark over the castle, and when he hears that someone has been killed, his fears are equally shared between Ron, Hermione and Ginny. 4. We don't get any indication that he's *particularly* afraid for Ginny when he sees her being used as a practice target by a DE. 5. After Ginny takes him away from DD's body, he does not look for any comfort from her. And they don't share any intimate kind of support in the hospital wing either. 6. Ginny is not waiting for him when he comes back from McGonagall's office, and he doesn't look for her. 7. Between DD's death and his burial, it is written that "Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together." It says ALL of their time. No indication whatsoever that Harry and Ginny spend any time just the two of them together. Which makes the "it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort" fall extremely flat for me. If Ginny is supposed to be an even better source of comfort than Ron and Hermione, then why say that all four of them were always together? 8. "'She's not that bad,' said Harry. 'Ugly, though,' he added hastily, as Ginny raised her eyebrows, and she let out a reluctant giggle." A BIG no-no for me, when someone doesn't feel free to say what they think. 9. Ginny goes to bed after stating that she hasn't slept that well since DD's death, and Harry doesn't even get up to give her a private good-night kiss or a comforting hug. Now *that* speaks tons to me. Negatively unfortunately. 10. Percy is present at breakfast on the morning of DD's burial. We are told that Ron pretends not to have noticed him, but nothing about Ginny who is sitting right next to Harry. 11. At the same breakfast, Ginny gives Harry a nudge in the *ribs*. That's unthinkable to me. If they are so physically comfortable with each other, then there are hundreds of much nicer ways to attract his attention. 12. When they go to be seated for the funeral, it is written that "Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny filed into seats at the end of a row beside the lake". Ginny is included in the Quatuor, she and Harry are not singled out as a couple. The order of the names doesn't even reflect the seating arrangement, since apparently, from what I understand, Harry is a the end of the row, with Ginny next to him, and then Ron&Hermione. 13. It is specified that Tonks and Lupin are holding hands, but no such specification for Harry and Ginny. 14. If Ginny and Harry were holding hands, Ginny wouldn't need to whisper in Harry's ear or to nudge him to attract his attention. 15. When Harry starts to cry, he looks away from Ginny and the others. That does NOT speak of emotional intimacy to me. Contrast this with Ron holding Hermione and stroking her hair (something we never saw Harry do with Ginny), while openly crying at the same time. 16. The Parting Scene. Let me copy it. "Ginny was no longer crying. She met Harry's gaze with the same hard, blazing look that he had seen when she had hugged him after winning the Quidditch Cup in his absence, and he knew that at that moment they understood each other perfectly, and that when he told her what he was going to do now, she would not say 'Be careful', or 'Don't do it,' but accept his decision, because she would not have expected less of him. And so he steeled himself to say what he had known he must say ever since DD had died. 'Ginny, listen...' he said very quietly, as the buzz of conversation grew louder around them and people began to get to their feet. 'I can't be involved with you anymore. We've got to stop seeing each other. We can't be together.' She said, with an oddly twisted smile, 'It's for some stupid, noble reason, isn't it?' 'It's been like... like something out of someone else's life, these last few weeks with you,' said Harry. 'But I can't... we can't... I've got things to do alone now.' She did not cry, she simply looked at him. 'Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to. He's already used you as bait once, and that was just because you're my best friend's sister. Think how much danger you'll be in if we keep this up. He'll know, he'll find out. He'll try and get to me through you.' 'What if I don't care?' said Ginny fiercely. 'I care,' said Harry. 'How do you think I'd feel if this was your funeral... and it was my fault...' She looked away from him, over the lake. 'I never really gave up on you,' she said. 'Not really. I always hoped... Hermione told me to get on with life, maybe go out with some other people, relax a bit around you, because I never used to be able to talk if you were in the room, remember? And she thought you might take a bit more notice if I was a bit more - myself.' 'Smart girl, that Hermione,' said Harry, trying to smile. 'I just wish I'd asked you sooner. We could've had ages... months... years maybe...' 'But you've been too busy saving the wizarding world,' said Ginny, half-laughing. 'Well... I can't say I'm surprised. I knew this would happen in the end. I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort. Maybe that's why I like you so much.' Harry could not bear to hear these things, nor did he think his resolution would hold if he remained sitting beside her. Ron, he saw, was now holding Hermione and stroking her hair while she sobbed into his shoulder, tears dripping from the end of his own long nose. With a miserable gesture, Harry got up, turned his back on Ginny and on DD's tomb and walked away around the lake." Ok, there are SO many things wrong in this scene that I don't even know where to start! 16.1. The telling is opposed to the showing. * At the beginning of the scene, JKR tells us that Ginny knows what Harry is about to do and why. And yet her very first question contradicts that statement. * JKR says that they understand each other perfectly, and yet Harry doesn't understand that Ginny doesn't care about becoming a prime target for LV, and Ginny doesn't understand that Harry is afraid to be hurt again. 16.2. There is absolutely NO emotional support given or received by either Ginny or Harry. Neither indicates that they know what the other is going through, nor do they offer words of sympathy. 16.3. Harry dumps Ginny and doesn't offer her any consolation. No "I love you", no last kiss, no "I'm so sorry", no "I don't mean to hurt you", no nothing. 16.4. Harry doesn't dump Ginny to protect *her*: he does it to protect *himself*. He's not afraid that she would die: he's afraid of what HE would feel if she died. And he doesn't care about making her miserable, as long as he can protect himself. That's not sacrifice, that's selfishness (and trust me, I *know* the difference, just ask my husband). 16.5. Harry *imposes* his will on Ginny. He gives her NO say in the decision. A huge no-no for me. And when she tries to give her opinion, Harry basically accuses her of wanting to hurt him. 16.6. *What* were they talking about during all those hours together, if Ginny didn't even get around to tell Harry about Hermione telling her to get a life?? 16.7. They are both deluding themselves as for the real reason they didn't get together earlier. Harry says it's just because he didn't ask Ginny sooner, when the real reason is that he simply never saw Ginny before, he was completely smitten with Cho. And Ginny says it's because Harry was too busy saving the world, which is not true either. 16.8. "I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting LV". Happy... Seems like Ginny isn't the most important thing in Harry's life indeed. 16.9. "Maybe that's why I like you so much." The hero-worship is still there. Ginny likes Harry because Harry is a knight in shining armour. I don't consider *that* to be a sign of deep and mature love. 17. People have said that Harry dumping Ginny is a sign of his deep and mature love for her. How can this be, since Harry is dumping *everyone*, including Ron and Hermione? Harry wants to go *alone*, he says so himself. He expects Ron and Hermione to know that too, which shows how little he understands *them*, which in turn doesn't bode well of his understanding of Ginny. 18. When being told that he must come to the Burrow for Bill and Fleur's wedding, Harry does not, not for one moment, think of Ginny. One would think that the words "the Burrow" and "Ginny" would be associated in Harry's mind, after all the telling about how Harry got closer to Ginny after spending the summer with her at the Burrow. But no! Harry thinks of the Burrow, he thinks of what a happy time it will be, and he thinks of how good it will be to have some peaceful in company of Ron and Hermione, but NO thought *whatsoever* of Ginny come to his mind. For all these reasons, I just don't see the romance between Harry and Ginny as being anything more than a fling on Harry's side and hero-worship on Ginny's side. And unfortunately JKR did not give me any proof that it is much more than that. In contrast, the relationship between Ron and Hermione seems to me much more emotionally intimate and mature by the end of HBP. They can talk about everything, they are not afraid to disagree, they respect the other's opinion when they do disagree, they are not afraid to show their true feelings to the other, they talk as a couple (both say "we" when talking to Harry at the end, which implies that either they've already discussed the matter, or they *really* know each other well), and so on. If I had to put my money on which couple has the most chances to last, I'd put all of it on Ron and Hermione. Del From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 23:35:57 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:35:57 -0000 Subject: Draco Love and Sexy Snape (was: Re: Dumbledore - is he or isn't he?) In-Reply-To: <002101c59565$ed5e4160$37a3ecdc@dee> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135990 > >>Bunny: > > I wonder what the 'Draco lovers' think of him now....... where he > stamped on the defenceless Harry's face and broke his nose > justified what I have always thought of him.....yuck! But even > worse was when he was describing it and laughing about it to other > Slytherins. Betsy Hp: Well, speaking as someone totally and completely *thrilled* with what JKR did for Draco in HBP (does that make me a "Draco lover"?) I got a bit of guilty pleasure out of Draco's "revenge" on Harry. For two reasons: First, after the many, many, *many* times Harry has stomped Draco, it was nice to finally see Draco get a bit of his own back. (That was the "guilty" part of my pleasure, I will admit.) Second, with Harry completely at Draco's mercy, the very fact that the *only* thing Draco does to Harry is break his nose and leave him on the train was quite telling, IMO. There were *tons* of things Draco could have done to Harry, up to and including murder. Especially when you consider that Draco's most likely been taking a crash course in Death Eaterism under Auntie Bella's tender care. The fact that Draco behaves so mildly could be seen as a foreshadowing of the choice he makes at the end of HBP, IMO. As to Draco laughing about his revenge with the other Slytherins, that didn't bother me too badly. For one, it signals that Draco never intended that Harry be missing forever (unlike the Weasley twins with their near murder of Montague). For another, it's really no more tacky than Ernie Macmillan relishing the thought of Draco's mother discovering her disfigured son at the end of OotP. > >>Bunny: > In keeping with this, maybe if we stopped thinking of Snape as the > highly popular Alan Rickman, and thought of him as JKR describes > him: sallow, greasy hair, yellowed teeth, grey undies, it will be > easier to believe that he's really evil. Come on........the guy's > really really cruel and hurtful to almost everyone. Betsy Hp: Gosh, you're right! Snape's ugly! He *must* be evil!! Of course, I jest. (After all, where would poor buck-toothed, bushy- haired Hermione be if we judged the characters of Potter-verse solely on their looks?) Believe it or not, there *are* those of us who find Snape quite attractive even *without* picturing Alan Rickman. I hunted up the post where I explain why so many fans (or, you know, me ;)) drool over Canon!Snape. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129370 Frankly, HBP changes very little. In fact, I'd say it only *adds* to Snape's attractiveness. We knew he was smart. Now we learn he's a prodigy. We knew he was brave. Now we learn he's probably one of the bravest members of the Order. (Lupin is still in the running here, but he gets such a tiny amount of stage time, poor boy, it's hard to fully compare.) We see more of his large heart in his protectiveness of Draco, and Harry for that matter. Plus, in a mother of all endorsements (pun kind of intended ), we get major hints that Snape was cared for by Lily. (As a sort of aside, isn't it interesting that Harry, with his mother's eyes, is the only one who can read Snape's handwriting?) No, as I've said before, it's going to take a bit more than a large nose and greasy hair to stop the Snape love. IMO, of course. :) Betsy Hp From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Mon Aug 1 23:48:45 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:48:45 EDT Subject: harry/ginny Message-ID: <9f.64232f0e.30200edd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135991 I'm sorry I thought jkr wanted this book to be smaller than oopt, I'm sure she wanted to write more scenes between h/g but if she had the book wouldv'e been 1000 pages long. I agree with all those that said that she left it up to our imaginations. I see H/G snogging and having long talks. Or just holding each other while saying nothing. That and it is jkr's book, quit b*******. I understand for some they don't think it's well written, but "the master" herself thinks it was written well, and that she has done a good job foreshadowing the comming off H/G. That being said, I totally agree and always thought that Ginny will give Harry till the wedding and then kick his a**, and tell him she's comming with him on his journey, assuming momma Weasely lets her. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 00:03:23 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:03:23 -0000 Subject: Big Bad Snape: the Riddle... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > Sorry, I can't imagine that - have you forgotten the description of a boy or man who does not take care of his physical needs at all? (dirty underwear, grizzy hair, runny nose, does he ever shower? :-)). Add to that his explosive temper, sneakiness and need for dominance - it would be a very unpleasant partner, to put it mildly - not even taking his attraction to the Dark Side into account... Juli: I still think he's sexy. Dirty underwear? where does it say so? as I remember his underwear was gray (dirty clothes are yellow IMO), Lily must have told him to wash because she was hurt after he called her mudblood. Greasy hair? couldn't it be some sort of gel or mousse? and where does it say he has a runny nose? He must shower, but I don't know how often, I really don't know the "bathing" habits in the UK, and in the Wizard World... > I guess that is where you differ from Snape. Lest we forget, he has killed at least one person, and was ready to kill more (Sirius)... Juli: Who did he kill? The whole Dumbledore thing is still uncertain. And when did he tried to kill Sirius? in PoA when they were in the Shack? of course he would! he was an escaped convict, even Harry tried to kill him then. Juli From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 00:36:39 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:36:39 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135993 I've been reflecting further on the debate going on about Snape within the group at the moment. I have seen a few posts that suggest that the people who don't accept the ESE!Snape interpretation of HBP are either: 1) Unacceptably twisting the story or making it too complicated. 2) Not backing up their points with canon instead of thematic arguments. 3) Getting confused between the Snape of canon and Alan Rickman's portrayal of Snape. The first point: It is not necessary to make the story too complicated in order to argue that Rowling doesn't intend for the tower scene to be taken at face value. As I argued in message number 133007 I don't think Dumbledore hatched any specific plan for Snape to kill him; all that is necessary is that Dumbledore know that Draco has been told to kill him at some stage; the fact that he DOES know is clearly stated in HBP anyway. Severely Signune's excellent post (number 135892) also demonstrates that it isn't even necessary to believe that Snape and Dumbledore confided fully in each other to support a viable argument that Snape is not ESE. The second point: There have also been posts claiming that the "Snape is not ESE" arguments are not backed up by real canon/incidents in the book. Or perhaps, to put it more precisely, the complaint is that none of the incidents referred to establish that Snape is not ESE without a doubt. Posters writing in defence of Snape have certainly referred to specific incidents in the book as far as I can see; problem is, the way HBP is written by definition makes it impossible for arguments either way to be supported by iron clad canon. Rowling is deliberately treading on a tightrope here; she wants to leave the question unanswered. That much is clear from her interviews. Third point: Whatever one's personal opinion of Alan Rickman's performance as Snape may be, this isn't really something that can be used by anyone to back up or pick apart arguments one way or another in relation to the books. I haven't seen any posts in defence of Snape that rely on the movie Snape rather than Snape as he is portrayed in the books. There is a general acknowledgement that Snape has many unpleasant characteristics, may be a weak person, and is not hero material. Valky (and others) have made a number of excellent posts calling for an interpretation of Snape as human rather than totally evil or totally good. The posts include extensive interpretation of specific canon events. Some have also suggested that Snape may have his own agenda, and could choose either side in the next book; we simply don't know at this stage. Again, this is something I argued in my first post (number 132919). Finally, I find the whole Snape debate to be the most fascinating aspect of the book :-) It is an amazing achievement on Rowling's part that so many interpretations of the events are possible and can be convincingly argued. So far I feel the debate has been very well argued on both sides and am throughly enjoying reading each of the posts. Thank you, everyone! Mari. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 00:57:55 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:57:55 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135994 Excellent Sigune. It's just quite excellent.. *Valky gives a very approving nod but is slightly speechless otherwise*. Sigune: No doubt a portion of his brain tells him that he finds himself in a danger zone (mark his unease at the sight of her tears); but his vanity and pride send signals that are too strong for so weak a man to resist. Snape is deeply enjoying his power over Pretty Cissy. He says yes, not out of the goodness of his heart, but because it is his moment of triumph over all he has wanted to be but has not been able to reach. He has finally come to the point where he can bow down to pick up a pure-blooded aristocratic beauty from where she is grovelling in the dust. Valky: Yeah, I didn't come exactly all the way round to this, but now, I'm sold on it. Although it's still possible to believe that Narcissa's beauty and Severus' affections for her and her son are part of the manipulation, I agree that it is essentially a manipulation and Sevvie let himself be flattered and tempted right into the web. In fact it's probably even more a possibility that Severus' affection for the sweet blond pair was the reason Narcissa was so knowledgable concerning his human weaknesses and was able to play on them so. Bella was clearly disliked by Snape and she obviously knew nothing of how to tempt him into a snare, this is, painstakingly, expounded to us right before Ms Malfoy makes her calculated moves. Sigune: He is ashamed of having been tricked like a novice. He has made an elementary mistake; and where in canon have we ever caught Snape admitting a mistake? Dumbledore, yes. Sirius, yes. Remus, yes. Snape? No way. He makes errors and he is aware of them, but he does not admit them. He tries to solve his problems on his own, in silence. So he does what he is good at: the telling of partial truths. He informs Dumbledore of the assassination plot and of the fact that he has made a Vow to protect Draco, but he never mentions the full pledge. Only he, Narcissa and Bellatrix (and Peter?) know of that. Valky: Can only say, I totally agree with that. A hard life for Severus' definitely but only because of his stubborness and unwillingness to come to terms with his own faults. Which brings me to Dumbledore. I agree that Snape told DD half truths and concealed everyting he could from DD about the extent of his dilemma, but I doubt, I truly doubt that he could conceal *all* the heart-pounding emotions and sinking guilt, or all his fear and hatred of what he had done. And I submit, Dumbledore sensed that Severus was in entirely too much of a pickle for his own good. For this I imagine Dumbledore will have been deeply sad, he had underestimated the trials he had put upon Snape, and it had become too much for him, but now it was too late. DD, most likely, logically concluded that ultimately the risk was to Severus or himself. He evaluated his choices and somehow came up with allowing the course of things to proceed the way they did. And I believe, very likely knowing that it would/could cost him his life in the end. For whatever reasons, it was right to do this. Although it may have been easier to save all three of the threatened parties, I think DD freely made a choice. For whatever good it was meant to serve, which we, maybe, haven't yet caught onto entirely. Potioncat: DD would save himself over Snape if he was well and able to continue the fight but he seems to be near death. If Snape dies, so does DD. I think there is some communication between DD and Snape at this point. ***DD sacrifices himself just like Ron did in the chess game. Just as Ron tells Harry and Hermione what moves they must make after the Knight is taken, I think DD has told Snape to make certain moves after the Rook( castle) is taken*** houyhnhnm: Good point. I think Ron's actions in PS/SS do foreshadow Dumbledore's on the tower. As much as I agree with those who don't feel that either Snape's or Dumbledore's characters are consistant with a full and open disclosure about the Unbreakable Vow (though there is an *awful lot* we don't know about their relationship), for me, it all comes down to Dumbledore's "Severus ... please". Since I can't believe Dumbledore would plead for his life, the only other explanation is that by this time, Dumbledore knows and has extracted a promise from Snape to step in if Draco appears to be succeeding. Valky: I like this one Potioncat. It ultimately makes a lot of sense. DD, I think, knew what he was risking that night. (I don't think it was the first time Trelawney had come knocking on his door with forshadowings of tragedy and death in Hogwarts). And I believe that he was firm in himself that when it happened, he would bring it as close to him as possible, like Ron in the Chess game who was probably playing himself into the danger square from the start and trying hard to protect Hermione and Harry from it. And DD, once it was upon him, he made himself ready for this to be a move twoards the ultimate victory, again like Ron. Here's another forshadowing that fits the Tower scene. Ron shouts the future moves at Harry, and remember that they told Hermione "don't move we are still playing". I this exactly what happened to Harry in the Tower? From auntydle at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 23:55:18 2005 From: auntydle at yahoo.com (auntydle) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:55:18 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135995 Serena Moonsilver wrote: > As we don't the actual process of creating horcrux, this is speculation, but what if when he came back to the school to apply for the DADA job, he turned his trophy into a horcrux. It seems something Voldemort would get a kick out of, having one hidden right under Dumbledore's nose. How about this? DD had said that Nagini (Voldemort's snake, did I spell that right?) is a possible living horcrux. What if, in the final climactic battle of the 7th book, it turns out that Harry himself is a living horcrux? In order to destroy Voldemort, he must destroy himself? auntydle From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 2 01:02:48 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:02:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135996 Potioncat: I am not responding to this thread. I am not! I am not! Pay no attention to the cat behind the curtain who is snipping hither, thither and yon. > > Christina: > > True, but I don't think what we already know is ambiguous at all. > Alla: > I disagree. Please help me out, if you think that no ambiguity is > present whatsoever. Potioncat: It is very ambiguous, I agree. And in this case I trust Dumbledore. I also think Lupin is being honest Severus and James both could have been killed. Black (adult) does not seem to have any remorse or else, has never faced the fact that someone could have died. (I didn't mean to do it; therefore it didn't happen.) I trust DD to know the difference between intended murder and stupidity. Heck if all Harry will get 20 years later for gutting Draco like a fish is detention...then what do you expect when no even got a scratch? And watch, 20 years from now Draco (if he is alive) will be reminding Headmaster Snape (if he is alive) that Potter (if he is alive) almost murdered him... >Alla:(I think) > 3. Why Snape is shown reading werewolf essay AND why exactly he > assigned the same essay to Harry's class? Potioncat: Snape is shown reading over the test. The Marauders are discussing the werewolf question. We do not know that 16 year old Severus was looking at the werewolf question. We do not know that he wasn't either. I can work it up that Severus suspects Remus of being a werewolf and I can work it up that he doesn't. I don't think we know. > Christina: > > I think it's pretty clear that Snape was a victim at the hands of > the Marauders more often than they were victims to him. > > > > Alla: > It is far from clear to me. Potioncat: Severus was not always the helpless victim. Sometimes he was the bully. Wait, was that what I intended to say? Let me re-phrase it: I would guess in the over all course of the Hogwarts days, Severus and James were (un)worthy adversaries. We know both showed some pretty unimpressive behavior at times. And did anyone notice in "Spinner's End", with a new PoV that belonged to neither one of the Trio nor a Marauder, Snape has "long black hair parted in curtains around a sallow face"? No grease to speak of. Potioncat meandering off to count my posts today. From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 01:07:59 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:07:59 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > First, all time travel will create a paradox, even the best thought > out methods; there is simply no escape from that. However, let's not > lose perspective regarding the nature and degree of paradox in PoA; it > can be small or it can be large depending on nothing more than a > person's perspective. Personally, I choose the small pain free > perspective. > > First, let's look as what Dumbledore knows. He know that Buckbeak > escaped, but he doesn't know how or why. He knows that someone who > looked like Harry's father saved Harry from the Dementors, and that's > about it. > > Remember, that at the time that Dumbledore makes his point about > needing 'more time' /Sirius has NOT been saved yet/; that occurs in > the future. There is nothing Dumbledore can do about saving Harry; > somehow that worked itself out. There is nothing Dumbledore can do > about saving Buckbeak because that also seems to have worked itself > out, but there is something he thinks he might be able to do about > using Buckbeak to save Sirius, which, again, has not happened yet. Actually, do we know that Dumbledore doesn't know how Buckbeak escaped? Remember that he often seems to have a far better sense of what is happening around him than anyone else. I think it is possible that he already knows or has deduced that H&H went back to save Buckbeak (or he knows that H&R did it, but since the current H&R don't recall doing it - hence he know that they will at some point go back in time). Again, that does not mean he has no free will in sending tham back. He suggests that they can save more than 1 tonight. Harry might think he means 1 more than Sirius, but maybe he means 1 more than Buckbeack who has already been saved. Notice he never mentions anything about Buckbeak's fate. It's sort of like the scene in Bill & Ted's Amazing Adventures, where Bill reminds himself to go back and borrow his father's keys and hide them, and then finds them where he is going to hide them. Just because you know you are going to do something doesn't mean you don't at some point have a choice. I know it's movie contamination, but while Harry saves himself from the Dementors, Hermione also saves them from Lupin by howling. Perhaps you can argue that there is a certain amount of entropy, and that the timestream will correct itself to avoid any paradoxes. Then also remember the way these books are written - they are largely from the point of view of Harry, and presumable his remembrances. Perhaps that is our biggest hint as to why there appear to be no paradoxes - When H&H go back, if they change time, maybe they also change their own memory of what happened. Maybe "it always happened that way" because Harry remembers it that way. There may have at some time been a slightly different set of events, but nobody remembers them because they are no longr part of the current time stream. From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 22:45:54 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 17:45:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: <1122933666.2211.73151.m25@yahoogroups.com> References: <1122933666.2211.73151.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd0508011545457deaaa@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135998 > Alla says: > > I would like some canon please about the assumption that Sirius > neglected to tell Snape about the fact that Lupin was a werewolf. In > fact, I would like canon on what EXACTLY Sirius told Snape. :-) > > Oh, and not Remus words, please, because to me it is quite clear that > if Snape figured out who remus was before going to Shack, he would > not tell Remus those interesting news. :-)> =================================== Lisa responds: Well, you can't ask for a canon quote and then pick and choose what you'll accept -- canon is canon. And it is as follows: PoA, hardcover Am. version, pg. 285: "And did the headmaster tell you the circumstances in which your father saved my life?" he whispered. "Or did he consider the details too unpleasant for precious Potter's delicate ears?" Harry bit his lip. He didn't know what had happened and didn't want to admit it - but Snape seemed have have guessed the truth. "I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imaginging some act of glorious heorism? Then let me correct you -- your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts." and PoA, pg. 356: " ... you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me -- " Black made a derisive noise. "It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping he could get us expelled ... ." "severus was very interested in where I went every month," Lupin told Harry, Ron and Hermione. "We were in the same year, you know, and we -- er -- didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field ... anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it -- if he'd got as far as this house, he'd've met a fully grown werewolf -- but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life ... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden by Dumbledore to tell anybody, but from that time on he knew what I was ... ." "So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because he thought you were in on the joke?" "That's right," sneed a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin. Severus Snape was pulling off the Invisibility Cloak, his wand pointing directly at Lupin. ::::big deep breath:::: So -- here we have Snape's and Lupin's versions of what happened -- and Sirius present, who didn't correct the story as it was told, but rather showed no remorse whatsoever. Speaks volumes. Alla says: > OK, I have to ask that question again - how exactly did Sirius SENT Snape to Shack? Did he tied him up? Did he put him under Imperio? > Don't you think that Snape bares at least some share of responsibility for going there in the first place? > Oh, and here is my favorite question of all times why would Snape stop and listen to ANYTHING Snape says? > Don't you think that Snape, smart as he is would view anything Sirius says as suspect? Lisa responds: 1. See above quoted reference from PoA. 2. Yes, Snape should not have been in a restricted area. But no, that does not excuse nor change the fact that he was purposely placed in danger. 3. No, I don't think anyone bears responsibility for being nosy, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't buy the "blame the victim" mentality. 4. If you mean why would Snape listen to anything SIRIUS says, I'd say because he's desperate to find out what they're doing in there. 5. Sure. But how on earth can one claim that Sirius' only fault here is being a "reckless teen," but when Snape is a reckless teen, it serves as an excuse for his possible death? Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 01:23:22 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:23:22 -0000 Subject: Bill W as DADA in book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > Does anyone else think that Bill is going to be the DADA in book 7? > His job as a curse breaker running around adventuring for Gringotts > gives him the experience, plus he is a very popular character (and > JKR might like to use him some more). I just get the impression that > he would be a good DADA and that maybe the whole end of HBP was > setting him up to be so (i.e., a little to injured to keep running > around curse breaking, etc). > > Jake Lorel responds: I hope he doesn't, as it seems the curse on the position is still very much in effect. While teaching at Hogwarts would appear to be a safer way (than active membership in the Order) to use his knowledge, I'd hate to see poor Bill have to suffer any more. From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Tue Aug 2 01:25:26 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:25:26 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136000 Mari wrote: > Valky (and others) have made a number of excellent posts calling for an interpretation of Snape as human rather than totally evil or totally good. The posts include extensive interpretation of specific canon events. dan: If I understand you right, you are implying that some who believe Snape is ESE are being unfair to those who don't believe it? That's harsh, Mari. I think all around, there needs to be some "defense" - for those who are in the ESE!Snape camp (oooh, sounds kinky) and those who are not. Canon doesn's answer who knew how much about what, not for some areas, but it DOES answer some pretty fundamental things about character. For example, Albus' understanding of the person Tom Riddle is not just extra guff, it's essential and central. And how often does the term "love" come up? The world Rowling has made does not devolve to this or that adventure element, but to the central characteristics of the players. In that sense, no matter how good one's canon is (and canon can be shown to be ever so slightly shaky internally - the maths issues, for example) if that canon does NOT include this personality assessment, it cannot answer the questions at all, not even if Snape is a real bastard or just a bastard. It's not like Snape's fundamental character is going to change somehow - his allegiances yes, but not his fundamental character. And that character is set before us. One last act this or that way is not going to change that, or the meaning of the work. So, analysis of the plot, as JKR has shown so clearly in HBP, is not separate in the slightest from analysis of character. dan From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 01:28:28 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:28:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius' attempted murder of Snape In-Reply-To: <14262fbd0508011426723b0afc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa Williams wrote: > Valky says: > Sirius plays with that werewolf every month, it's his favourite > past time. Does he think that a half competent wizard will survive > an encounter with his friend Lupin.. *yes*, he *does*, he's > *arrogant*, prideful, he thinks weekends with werewolves is > something *everyone* should do to build character. I'm not saying > he's right about all that, but I think it's pretty darn obvious he > wasn't trying to murder Snape. Yeah yeah maybe it's a warped mind > that thinks it, but it is *Sirius'* mind. > ========= > > Lisa responds: > My problem with that explanation is that Sirius, James and Peter are > unregistered animagi -- they became such so that they could hang > around with Lupin and not be in danger. Therefore, they all knew > that danger existed to anyone else. We're told that werewolves will > attack anyone, even their best friends, when they are "under the > influence," so to speak, and a bite from a werewolf at the very > least makes another werewolf, and at worst kills the prey. James > obviously thought the danger of death was enough that he needed to > save Snape -- and Snape thought the danger of death was enough that > he owed James a life-debt. In that light, I really can't see how > sending Snape into (below) the Whomping Willow could be viewed as > anything but attempting to dispose of Snape for good. > > Lisa/SassyMomOfThree Valky again: Sorry Lisa, but you're giving me canon of Remus' opinion and James' opinion and even Snape's opinion, to counter a statement about Sirius' opinion. They are different people they don't think the same. I said: he [Sirius] thinks weekends with werewolves is something *everyone* should do to build character. Reams of canon back this statement.. like for instance - In the pensieve "I wish it was Full Moon, I'm bored." Remus says "you might." Yes, Sirius might because it's a deeply satisfying activity for him. He's insensitive to Remus' feelings, selfish and a bit bad mannered. There's plenty of canon for those things here too, but that's not the point, the point is hanging out with the werewolf is *enjoyment*, *danger* is enjoyment for Sirius. He's a loose canon, not a murderer. Then there's OOtP: "A deadly struggle for my soul would have broken the monotony nicely." And "....at least you've been able to get out and about, stretch your legs, get in a few fights..." These are Sirius' opinons of the danger. I don't see how anybody elses opinions can make these less valid as Sirius' opinions. It's a *thousand* times more likely that Sirius thought he was doing Snape a big favour and building character in him, than it ever is that he was trying to get him killed. Valky From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 01:29:31 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:29:31 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136002 Other H/G "shippers" and I have already posted evidence from HBP that show our satisfaction with Harry and Ginny's relationship. Many have said that they prefer not to have every detail of their private time together, and actions such as the way Ginny's look shows complete understanding and acceptance, the way she can communicate with Harry by touch, and the intimacy that they share right in front of Ron (leaning on Harry's leg, kissing him good night), all show a good deal of maturity and age appropriate behavior for a relationship that has futur3e potential. That aside, we also have to not forget the age (and gender) appropriateness for Harry Potter's READERS. I was tutoring a twelve year old girl today (math, not reading) and afterwards we talked about the book. She told me she was very excited about Harry and Ginny `cause if she were Ginny, she'd love Harry too. I took that opportunity to ask her if there was enough of them in the book because, I told her, I knew of a lot of adults who are not satisfied with the way Harry and Ginny were written. The twelve-year-old's response was that she was glad there was no "idiotic" stuff like all of Ron's kissing between Harry and Ginny and she liked how it said that Ginny made Harry so happy and she's sure they'll be together in the next book. Her 10 year old brother (wearing an oversized T-Shirt that said "I Solemnly Swear I am Up to No Good" on the front and, of course, "Mischief Managed" on the back) piped in. "There was way too much kissing in the book. Why can't JK Rowling just SAY that Harry's going out with Ginny or that Ron is going out with someone? Why does she have to tell us that they kissed. I don't want to read that kind of stuff." This touches on TWO important reasons to support the way Harry/Ginny was written. In the eyes of a very mature 12 year old (don't let "tutoring" fool you into thinking she's not bright), she could already tell that Ron was acting like an idiot with Lavender and that there was something special and real about Harry and Ginny. I am glad that she was able to apply her own frame of reference and hope about Love to the characters, not just to see what is good, but what is "idiotic" as well. The second reason I support the way it was written refers to the 10 year old. He is definitely a somewhat zealous Harry Potter fan the books, the movies, the legos, the video games, the card games... he has them all. Yet, he hated all the kissing! Of course, he's 10 and a boy. Nevertheless, I am willing to bet that a lot of JK Rowling's young and/or male fans feel the same way. I wouldn't want JKR to write a romance novel, or even a book that forces people to accept only one interpretation of the time that Harry and Ginny spent together. Certainly a 12 year old is going to have a different idea of what happened than myself, and I'm sure when both (and most) kids are older, they'll be able to read into it what they want. It was unnecessary to show every kiss, every touch, every cuddle, every private word for the very facts that it would potentially turn OFF readers, and it would show less of a distinction between how one feels about the wrong kinds of teenage "love" (Ron and Lavender kissing more than talking and Lavender holding tighter the more Ron tried to let go, Cho being jealous of Hermione and Viktor being jealous of Harry without having any understanding of the strictly friendship Harry and Hermione have, Harry being more and more uncomfortable with Cho and not at all understanding each other) instead of seeing the kind of healthy progression of attraction, denial, and then definite connection and obvious intimacy Harry has with Ginny. So, let's allow JKR to satisfy the majority of her readers, who are certainly younger than us, by giving them enough proof that Ginny makes Harry happy and there are good kinds of teenage love and ridiculous kinds and by not giving them so much information that she turns off readers. I bet JKR might even care more about if her non-adult readers look forward to the next book than if her adult readers do. Marianne S. From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 01:20:49 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP Re: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802012049.29758.qmail@web33312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136003 Lea wrote: > What, two chapters of 'Harry's little monster in his chest' and their snogging? Then there is nothing except Harry thinking of Ginny in a paragraph or two, then they are broken up.... It was rushed and cliche and might as well have not been included in my opinion. Cat writes: I agree. It was too rushed and had very little details. Since Harry is the main character, JKR should've spent more time developing his relationship with Ginny, than she did with Hermione and Ron's. She did foreshadow Ginny's feelings for Harry, but not his feelings for her. It seemed like all of a sudden he notices her long red and hair and likes her. I think JKR should have somehow showed that Harry notices Ginny in OotP. Cat From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 01:53:19 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:53:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius' attempted murder of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136004 Valky wrote : It's a *thousand* times more likely that Sirius thought he was doing Snape a big favour and building character in him, than it ever is that he was trying to get him killed. Marianne S: I'm not sure about thinking he was doing Snape a "big favor"... but I have a feeling that Sirius was trying to knock Snape down a peg, show him what he's dealing with if he keeps hexing them, 'cause next time it could be worse than Levicorpus. I believe both Sirius and Lupin said that Snape hexed and taunted them as much as he was hexed and taunted by James and Sirius. It makes me almost wonder how Snape got away with it all... why wasn't his name ever in the files Harry was re-writing? So, while I don't think that Sirius was doing Snape a favor, I don't think that Sirius was trying to get "Snivelus" killed or bitten, either. I think he was probably trying to give him a good scare and it just got out of hand. Or maybe, Sirius believed (like some HP readers, I have read) that Snape was a vampire and would prove it by turning into a bat to escape? ;) So, wouldn't it be a fine twist of fate if: Snape was pining for Lily just as James was, but was too socially inept to do anything about it, especially since he was hiding his "half-blood" status and aware of her muggle parentage.... Part of Snape's attraction to Lily was for her potions ability. Another part of his attraction to her was the fact that she *seemed* to hate James. So, even if young Severus knew he couldn't have Lily, he might have felt like James certainly couldn't either... and here's the TWIST... James saves Snape, not just causing Snape to have a "life-debt" to his adversary. Then, to make matters worse for the very much alive and unbitten Severus. seeing or knowing that James saved the life of someone he hated was the EXACT THING that made Lily change her mind about James and agree to go out with him! If so, poor Severus (not that this would excuse the way he has treated Harry for 6 years)! All of this is my own conjecture, not to be taken as canon. Marianne S From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Tue Aug 2 01:54:12 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:54:12 -0000 Subject: Explanations but no facts (was Re: Mr. Snape, not Saint Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136005 Julie says: > Oh, and Dumbledore's changed tone came about as Snape walked onto the scene, *before* Snape and Dumbledore even had eye contact. dan: >From HBP - The Lightning Struck Tower "Draco, do it, or stand aside so one of us -" screeched the woman, but at that precise moment the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the four Death Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and Malfoy. "We've got a problem, Snape," said the lumpy Amycus, whose eyes and wand were fixed alike upon Dumbledore, "the boy doesn't seem able -" >From OOP - Chapter 24 "Eye contact is OFTEN essential to Legilimency." (my emphasis) Enough room for a possible betrayal, and time to spot it, by legilimency. But, even more importantly, if so obvious as to be missed, this is the first time Snape has talked about his being on the side of the DE in from of Dumbledore! How long would it take Albus to figure out how closely Snape has been working with them, given their deference to him? By telling Snape the boy doesn't seem to be able to kill Dumbledore, they are asking Snape for advice, assistance, whatever. Doesn't that count for anything? Wouldn't that constitute a big surprise for Albus? At any rate, changing sides is also in keeping with Snape's established character. dan From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 02:06:42 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:06:42 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136006 dan: > If I understand you right, you are implying that some who believe > Snape is ESE are being unfair to those who don't believe it? That's > harsh, Mari. I think all around, there needs to be some "defense" - > for those who are in the ESE!Snape camp (oooh, sounds kinky) and those > who are not. Mari again: I understand what you are saying here :-) My comment below in the original post should help to clear this up: "So far I feel the debate has been very well argued on both sides and am throroughly enjoying reading each of the posts." The ESE!Snape theorists have valid points to make and have made good arguments, I'm not disputing that at all. As I said in the comment above, both sides make excellent arguments for their views. I was simply questioning the most commonly brought up complaints about the arguments for Snape not being ESE. dan again: > The world Rowling has made does not devolve to this or > that adventure element, but to the central characteristics of the > players. In that sense, no matter how good one's canon is (and canon > can be shown to be ever so slightly shaky internally - the maths > issues, for example) if that canon does NOT include this personality > assessment, it cannot answer the questions at all, not even if Snape > is a real bastard or just a bastard. It's not like Snape's fundamental > character is going to change somehow - his allegiances yes, but not > his fundamental character. And that character is set before us. One > last act this or that way is not going to change that, or the meaning > of the work. Mari again: This is an excellent point, and I don't dispute it. My question is, do you feel that those who argue, for various reasons, that Snape is not just ESE, have not engaged with these sort of questions about his personality? I'm in the "not just ESE" camp at this stage but I certainly wouldn't deny that Rowling has shown us that Snape is an unpleasant character. Do you think posters who argue that Snape is not ESE generally try to deny the fact that he has an unpleasant personality? I haven't seen that they do. Thanks for these very interesting thoughts. Mari. From rt11guru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 02:09:16 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:09:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: <14262fbd0508011545457deaaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136007 > Lisa responds: > 4. If you mean why would Snape listen to anything SIRIUS says, I'd > say because he's desperate to find out what they're doing in there. Shouldn't Snape have been thinking, "Hmm, here are 4 guys who constantly go out of their way to make my life miserable. Now, one of them says he's going to share their big secret with me. Right! How big a fool does he think I am?" The least he should have expected was that they were going to take his wand, strip him naked, and use a binding curse to tie him to the WW. I mean, what did he expect from a bunch of rowdy frat boys? Guru From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 02:14:23 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:14:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius' attempted murder of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136008 Valky wrote : It's a *thousand* times more likely that Sirius thought he was doing Snape a big favour and building character in him, than it ever is that he was trying to get him killed. Marianne S: I'm not sure about thinking he was doing Snape a "big favor"... but I have a feeling that Sirius was trying to knock Snape down a peg, Valky: Ahh yeah I actually didn't mean that Sirius thought he was doing Snape a favour. I literally meant that it's *more likely* that than trying to kill him. It's clearly unlikely that a favour was at the forefront of Sirius' mind, but it's a thousand times more likely to have been than murder ever was. Marianne continues: show him what he's dealing with if he keeps hexing them, 'cause next time it could be worse than Levicorpus. I believe both Sirius and Lupin said that Snape hexed and taunted them as much as he was hexed and taunted by James and Sirius. Valky: I agree with your second statement entirely. I stand by what I said years ago after OOtP "Snape was a special case" *because* he was formidable. Marianne: It makes me almost wonder how Snape got away with it all... why wasn't his name ever in the files Harry was re-writing? Valky: Ahhh now *that*, I believe, but have never been able to convince anyone yet, is *why they called him Snivellus*. From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 02:22:24 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:22:24 -0000 Subject: Why so dissatisfied? H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136009 Cindy: So, I can certainly understand the feelings some folks have about being disappointed, however, if there was some severe editing, it only reinforces the fact that Harry's relationships will not be key in his success or failure to defeat Voldemort. Now Sienna (stepping sheepishly up to her soapbox): Hem hem... the question is then, why a H/G subplot at all? Why not lone-Harry? I know people will say its all about growing up and, yes, realistically Harry would have a relationship with *someone* and probably in a very teenage way, but what does this add to the plot? I'm reading the story of Harry Potter's defeat of Voldemort not `A day in the life of a teenage love machine'. ;) The questions I want answered *in canon*: What does the H/G partnership bring to Harry's character development and quest? When did Ginny become the perfect woman? Why is she the perfect woman? How come she understands him better than his two best friends when she hasn't shared a tenth of what they have with him? Will she have some role to play in Voldemort's defeat? If not, why is she there? Why is she paired with the hero? Sorry, but this isn't a matter of difference in preference of partner, it's a matter of good versus bad writing. It's a matter of poorly crafted story. A subplot needs to feed the main plot. It is there to show one side of the wider thematic argument. In this way the author builds their argument to it's ultimate conclusion and brings *us* along for the ride. What is Rowling's argument here? What is the thematic link with the role love will have to play in defeating Voldemort? Or is this just another coincidental topic she touched upon that is planned to go precisely nowhere? And if love *is* the thing that will defeat Voldemort, then how can *anyone* argue that Harry's relationships will not be at the centre of that, especially romantic ones? And if they are at the centre, then the author absolutely *cannot* leave the characters main LI, his `perfect' woman (on that I think I'll just have to take her word for it), to the reader's imagination. I know I'm on my high horse a bit here (sincere apologies), but the whole section of the Emerson/ Melissa interview where Rowling talked about Ginny being a gifted-witch (seventh daughter of the seventh daughter or some such jazz) and the perfect girl for Harry, was utterly appalling for me because I didn't have the foggiest idea what she was talking about. And I didn't have a clue because she didn't show me. And bat-bogey hex doesn't cut it. I've never actually seen her perform the silly thing. Ever. (I know I'm not Einstein, but I *can* read a book darn it) So my point (albeit long winded)... it's one thing for Harry to slowly realise Ginny is the perfect girl for him but as a reader I need to have realised that she was it much earlier. The shipping wars alone are testament to the fact that Rowling didn't do her job properly. By the end of OotP it should have been game over ? Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry, she is a gifted witch because we've seen her in action even if the hero hasn't processed the information yet. She understands Harry better because we've seen her understand Harry better - repeatedly. All that's then left is for us to wait with baited breath for Harry to realise it (ala Emma/Knightley). Not because I prefer Ginny and can identify with her or like the best friend's sister scenario or think it's sweet but because the author has made it abundantly clear that she's *it*. Luna was at least as likely as Ginny in terms of potential compatibility at the end of OotP, in my opinion. In fact, at the DoM, we only saw Hermione and Luna in action. Wouldn't it have been the perfect chance to show off Ginny's powers? Give us a look at her bat- bogey hex? But no, Luna is the last woman standing in her little trio. Ergo, reader decides, Luna has some power. Luna then shares a significant moment of understanding with Harry ? more significant than chocolate eggs in my opinion - so the reader is left thinking that Luna might be compatible with Harry also. This, combined with the fact that Hermione was a stronger contender in *some* readers' minds and that Harry had a realistic choice of 3 or more girls at the end of OotP, is evidence enough that Rowling did *not* do the job well. I think those that argue that we had clues to Ginny's compatibility with the hero before HBP forget that there were an equal number of clues to his compatibility with others, despite the fact that in hindsight those clues appear to be dead ends or red herrings. Sienna *Finally taking a deep breath and hoping that it will all make sense in the end* From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Tue Aug 2 02:41:24 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:41:24 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136010 dan wrote: > The world Rowling has made does not devolve to this or that adventure element, but to the central characteristics of the players. In that sense, no matter how good one's canon is (and canon can be shown to be ever so slightly shaky internally - the maths issues, for example) if that canon does NOT include this personality assessment, it cannot answer the questions at all, not even if Snape is a real bastard or just a bastard. Mari wrote: > My question is, do you feel that those who argue, for various reasons, that Snape is not just ESE, have not engaged with these sort of questions about his personality? > I'm in the "not just ESE" camp at this stage but I certainly wouldn't deny that Rowling has shown us that Snape is an unpleasant character. Do you think posters who argue that Snape is not ESE generally try to deny the fact that he has an unpleasant personality? I haven't seen that they do. dan (with a couple nora suggestions): Well, this is a difficult point, because you seem to be saying that, no matter what Snape is, or does, he still might not be 100% evil. But I don't argue that anyone is. I didn't even say one or the other side of the debate is being cute. What I did say was that any analysis of the books should probably take into consideration the characters' characters! It's canon now. Albus studied Tom's personality and it is central! So, an analysis of Snape that doesn't take into consideration certain things he's done is not complete - it is open to criticism. And I submit that we know enough about Snape to agree he's a nasty person. Does dropping the potion in OOP count for nothing? Or trying to get Harry kicked off the team in CoS. "I see no differnence." Now, unless you can argue that Snape sees things really weirdly different than the rest of us, like, sees people's souls or such instead of their bodies, that comment was pretty telling, eh? That is Snape. He joined the racist DE, and then he betrayed them, ostensibly, and repented. All I want is to move the debate beyond ESE or not, and into what is the fundamental character of Snape. And it is not pleasant. dan From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 2 02:43:57 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:43:57 -0000 Subject: FILK: Close the Slug Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136011 Close the Slug Club To the tune of Close Every Door, from AL Webber's Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat Dedicated to Lilac THE SCENE: The Sixth-Floor Boys' Room. A weeping DRACO MALFOY pours out his heart to the attentive MOANING MYRTLE: DRACO: Lord Voldemort tells me What deed he wants from me Assassination To augment his might He'll do what he wants to me If unsuccessful, he'll Trash all my slashfic Shut down my fansites My task's so important I'll Be killed if it goes awry And that is what makes me cry Here in the can Close the Slug Club to me Keep Quidditch play from me I serve a Master with A heart cold as stone I cannot rest until I Headmaster blood spill For I have been given A Mark of my own. (During the instrumental bridge, DRACO & MYRTLE waltz around the boys' room together) At fixing the cabinet I'll take one more stab I'll pour Polyjuice to Unsex Goyle & Crabbe I'll save my mother >From Lord Voldy's cursin' Rescue my father from A cell dark and drab This sad song that I'm beltin' out I hope helps Tom Felton out For I must start meltin' doubt Here in the john DRACO/MYRTLE Snatch all/his my thongs from me/him Black leather strip from me/him This child of Malfoy For my/his clan atones There's a sword overhead Until Dumble's dead For I/he have been given A Mark of my/his own. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 02:45:17 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:45:17 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136012 Marianna: Other H/G "shippers" and I have already posted evidence from HBP that show our satisfaction with Harry and Ginny's relationship. Many have said that they prefer not to have every detail of their private time together, and actions such as the way Ginny's look shows complete understanding and acceptance, the way she can communicate with Harry by touch, and the intimacy that they share right in front of Ron (leaning on Harry's leg, kissing him good night), all show a good deal of maturity and age appropriate behavior for a relationship that has futur3e potential. Now me: Marianna, you raise some good points regarding the different ways in which adults and children respond to the text. However, much of the problem I have with H/G is for precisely this reason. Children's literature, while useful in feeding young imaginations, also has a socialising role to play. It's an aspect of the genre that is difficult to come to terms with (as it suggests subtly manipulative subtext), but it is an utterly important one to acknowledge. Within this context, the potrayal of relationships between boys and girls, and men and women, in the text comes with awesome responsibility. Elizabeth Helmann (www.about.com), argues that potrayal of romance in books matters because: "...adolescent girls read in a realist manner, texts represent a dangerous seduction. Girls tend to read romance texts as preparation for the romances they foresee as part of their immediate future." I dare suggest this applies equally (if not more) strongly to pre- adolescent girls. Whether you decide that the H/G subplot is full of positive messages or, like me, potentially dangerous ones, it is still an issue that warrants careful discussion. (Thus my very serious problem with the Ginny versus Hermione characterisations in HBP). I know it veers slightly off the topic you have started here, but I think that ultimately it is not about whether Rowling showed them snogging away or not. It is about how she set up the dynamics of the relationships between them and I think she has a greater responsibility there than she accepts. I also think that adult fans are better placed to provide a critique of this aspect of the canon exactly because we are *not* children. Sienna From smilingator81 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 02:52:05 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:52:05 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136013 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboyminn: >First, all time travel will create a paradox, even the best thought > > out methods; there is simply no escape from that. However, let's not > > lose perspective regarding the nature and degree of paradox in PoA; > it > > can be small or it can be large depending on nothing more than a > > person's perspective. Personally, I choose the small pain free > > perspective. > > meltowne: > I know it's movie contamination, but while Harry saves himself from > the Dementors, Hermione also saves them from Lupin by howling. > Perhaps you can argue that there is a certain amount of entropy, and > that the timestream will correct itself to avoid any paradoxes. > > Then also remember the way these books are written - they are largely > from the point of view of Harry, and presumable his remembrances. > Perhaps that is our biggest hint as to why there appear to be no > paradoxes - smilingator: Although when Hermione saved them from Lupin by howling is movie contamination, I thought it was a great add in to help the audience members who did not read the book and did not yet fully grasp the time travelling element. Anyway, I'm going to assume (I know, it's a bad thing to do) that both of you believe that TTH!/TTHr! did not change anything by going into the past. If that's true, then where is the paradox created? I guess I just keep looking to find out why others are so upset by JKR's addition of this element into her septology... I am delighted that she did it and I thought she did a pretty good job of it, except for Hermione's warning of seeing your past self (which, as Steve explained in an earlier post, could have just been her exaggerating or McGonagall trying to scare Hr into being careful). Thanks in advance for any input everyone. smilingator From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 02:55:15 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:55:15 -0500 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists ;-) In-Reply-To: <1122947658.1835.45589.m27@yahoogroups.com> References: <1122947658.1835.45589.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd0508011955e527d39@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136014 Mari says: > Finally, I find the whole Snape debate to be the most fascinating > aspect of the book :-) It is an amazing achievement on Rowling's > part that so many interpretations of the events are possible and > can be convincingly argued. So far I feel the debate has been > very well argued on both sides and am throughly enjoying > reading each of the posts. Lisa responds: Oh, Mari, I love the debate, mostly because I "can" argue either side of this coin! Snape is my favorite character because he's so complex, and I know JKR is going to keep us guessing about him until the final chapter of Book 7! I continue to straddle the fence on the issue of good-Snape vs. evil-Snape, but I "want" him to be good, so I'll sink my toes into the green grass on that side of the fence until I close Book 7. ;0) Oh -- and on this topic: while I think Alan Rickman was heart-stopping 10 or so years ago, I don't think he has aged well, so my leaning toward the good-Snape side has nothing to do with that. I also think he's too old for the part. While I'm ranting on the movie-characters, Remus Lupin is supposed to look (in my mind's eye) like a cuddly teddy-bear, NOT AT ALL like David Thewlis. Blech. One final thing: I'm a newbie; I keep seeing ESE!Snape -- what does that mean? I know it means "evil" but can't figure out all the letters. Thanks. ;0) Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From orangebee7 at chartermi.net Tue Aug 2 02:56:59 2005 From: orangebee7 at chartermi.net (katherinemoor) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:56:59 -0000 Subject: Counter-Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136015 Okay, so Voldemort has split his soul into seven pieces, and contained six of the seven in objects (or possibly animals) outside his body. Dumbledore discusses with Harry (HBP Ch. 23) that this splitting of one's soul, while guaranteeing immortality, will prove dangerous for Voldemort in his quest to destroy Harry because Harry's soul is "whole." Dumbledore once again emphasizes Harry's ability to love and says that it is this quality which will give him the power to defeat Voldemort. So, what if a healthy soul like Harry's is not split, but *shared* outside his own body? Think about it: it seems logical that if you truly love someone, part of your soul is transfered to them. This is one way to explain why we are so devastated when those close to us die--a part of us dies with them. So while Voldemort's soul has been ripped apart as he kills people, perhaps Harry's soul has grown and spread as he loves people. And perhaps this is why people close to Harry keep dying. Voldemort feels that in order to truly destroy Harry, he must destroy all of the people in which Harry has invested a part of his soul. Think about it: Harry came to view Sirius as a sort of parent-- Sirius served as an adult figure in Harry's life who could watch out for him and give him guidance from the point of view of experience. Granted, Voldemort himself did not destroy Sirius, but it could be that part of the Death Eaters' mission at the MoM included killing him. JKR has said that there was a reason for Sirius' death that she couldn't yet reveal to us--maybe it involves the fact that he held a part of Harry's soul. And Dumbledore: he was Harry's mentor and in HBP they reached a new level of friendship. Harry appeared to have more respect for Dumbledore than for any other character, and Dumbledore clearly valued Harry as well. It seems logical that through this powerful and personal mentor/student relationship, Harry invested part of his soul in Dumbledore as well. This theory adds another reason besides the obvious ("only one he ever feared") as to why Voldemort wanted Dumbledore dead. This theory puts Hermione, Ron, and now Ginny directly in the line of fire--I think it's common knowledge that the people closest to Harry are in grave danger, but the idea of Counter-Horcruxes makes it more solid. It may never be defined in so concrete a manner in the books, but I believe that this is the crux (ha) of the idea that Harry's greatest power is love. Voldemort has irreparably damaged his soul by splitting it and storing it in objects outside his body, but Harry has strengthened and fortified his soul by sharing it with the people that he truly loves. Whether VM can destroy Harry's soul by destroying these people is the question, but I believe that he won't be able to--that even if Harry's Counter-Horcruxes have all been destroyed (which I hope doesn't happen because it'll be a little too depressing for me to handle), his power to love will still remain intact, and that is what will save him and destroy Voldemort. Maybe a little half-baked, but I think it makes sense. Let me know what you think. --Rin From andie1 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 03:01:35 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:01:35 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny's romance: canon pros and cons (was SHIP: Where is the canon...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: Here's one guess: Harry was so > happy to have won Ginny over that he let his hormones rage too much, > and forced Ginny to have sex with him even though she didn't really > want to. But because it was their first time for both, neither > realised that what happened was technically a rape, and Ginny thinks > it's the way it happens normally to every girl in love. > > If you think it's exxagerated, think again: it does happens to a lot > of kids. This will definately be my last post on this topic, and as I said before, we will need to agree to disagree... With that said, how can you continue to bring up abusive relationships? I see not one reason for anyone to believe that there was any kind of an abusive relationship. Ginny would not be as comfortable around Harry if this were true, and what about Ron? Harry would never disrespect Ginny or Ron in that manner. I just don't see how this can even be considered a possibility when using our imaginations regarding their romantic relationship. I am a Harry/Ginny supporter. You are not. The End. There it is. I'm done. grindieloe From lebeto033 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 03:25:21 2005 From: lebeto033 at yahoo.com (lebeto033) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:25:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136017 Marianne S. wrote: > Other H/G "shippers" and I have already posted evidence from HBP that show our > satisfaction with Harry and Ginny's relationship. Many have said that they prefer not to > have every detail of their private time together, and actions such as the way Ginny's look > shows complete understanding and acceptance, the way she can communicate with Harry > by touch, and the intimacy that they share right in front of Ron (leaning on Harry's leg, > kissing him good night), all show a good deal of maturity and age appropriate behavior for > a relationship that has future potential. I agree that it is not necessary to see every instance of their relationship but I think what most people find disagreeable with the romance is the manner in which it took place. There was hints of Ron/Hermione romance in GoF (and if read closely even further back) and that has yet to come to fruition. The three stages of romance that JKR likes to use (noticing something attractive about the other person, jealous of boyfriend/girlfriends, and finally the kiss) take place over three books for Cho who happens to become a nonexistent character. Then the true love of his life suddenly appears and the same stages take maybe three chapters. One could look back and say Ginny had a crush on him and they both have seen the darkness of Voldemort, but there was no reciprication of her feelings until this book. There would be nothing wrong with this except JKR herself said that Ginny was the perfect woman and such a fast relationship seems more like an infatuation. Personally H/G is my favorite pairing that was expected. I like Honks and other odd ones but its tough to delude yourself for so long. I didn't think that Harry would fall in love with Ginny until part way through the seventh book because I thought an important relationship would need time to fully flesh out for the readers and that is why I'm so dissapointed. lebeto From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 03:42:27 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:42:27 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136018 My third post for the day so after this I'll have to shut up for a while ;-) First, to Lisa: I'm so glad you are enjoying the debate too :-) ESE stands for ever-so-evil, I haven't been posting that long myself, lol so didn't know at first either. Its a shorthand way of saying it I guess. Now, over to dan: Dan wrote: > > So, an analysis of Snape that doesn't take into consideration certain > things he's done is not complete - it is open to criticism. And I > submit that we know enough about Snape to agree he's a nasty person. > > Does dropping the potion in OOP count for nothing? Or trying to get > Harry kicked off the team in CoS. "I see no differnence." Now, unless > you can argue that Snape sees things really weirdly different than the > rest of us, like, sees people's souls or such instead of their bodies, > that comment was pretty telling, eh? > > That is Snape. He joined the racist DE, and then he betrayed them, > ostensibly, and repented. > > All I want is to move the debate beyond ESE or not, and into what is > the fundamental character of Snape. And it is not pleasant. Yes, all of the actions you point to have to be taken into account. Snape is clearly horrible to certain people throughout the books.The strange thing is they don't necessarily fit with some of his other choices in the books. The ones I can think of I am setting out below (I know these would have been brought up before). I summarised some of this in post number 134540. 1) Saving Harry's life in PS 2) Choosing to go after the trio to the shrieking shack, to protect them from someone he believed was in league with Voldemort, in PoA. 3) Trying to convince Fudge in GoF that Voldemort is back, when Voldemort didn't want anyone to know this. 4) Alerting the order to what was going on in the Department of Mysteries. To me Snape's character is a puzzle because of this inconsistency; why does a person who is clearly unpleasant make such choices? My final question is this: is there any difference between pointing to the incidents you highlight, and considering the ones I have listed? Don't *both* have to be taken into account for a complete picture of Snape's character? He comes across as conflicted more than anything else over the course of the series as a whole. Putting all of the above together, along with what happens in HBP, which I won't repeat because its been aired so often, I would deduce the following about Snape's character: 1) He is petty, sarcastic, and unpleasant. 2) He has favourites and scapegoats among his students. 3) If he has agreed to do something, or feels he should do it, he will go through with it regardless of the consequences to himself. 4) He craves respect and admiration. 5) He has learned not to need friends or close confidantes; if you are playing both sides (or pretending to) you can't afford them. 6) He is highly intelligent. 7) His actions so far don't suggest he fears personal danger. Whatever his allegiance he has been prepared to take enormous risks up to this point. 8) He is bitter and feels unappreciated. 9) He does not easily trust people. 10) He despises people who show fear or weakness. I suspect this is because he sees in them what he used to be like himself, and wishes he wasn't. Of course, this is open to argument. I hope this makes sense, Mari. From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 03:52:30 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:52:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re:harry/ginny In-Reply-To: <9f.64232f0e.30200edd@aol.com> References: <9f.64232f0e.30200edd@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136019 Danielle wrote: > I'm sorry I thought jkr wanted this book to be smaller than oopt, I'm sure > she wanted to write more scenes between h/g but if she had the book wouldv'e > been 1000 pages long. I agree with all those that said that she left it up to > our imaginations. I see H/G snogging and having long talks. Or just holding > each other while saying nothing. That and it is jkr's book, quit > b*******. I understand for some they don't think it's well written, but "the > master" herself thinks it was written well, and that she has done a good job > foreshadowing the comming off H/G. That being said, I totally agree and > always thought that Ginny will give Harry till the wedding and then kick his a**, > and tell him she's comming with him on his journey, assuming momma Weasely > lets her. I know I'm going to regret stepping in, but I could not help it when I saw this post. First, I consider Shakespeare to be one of the literary geniuses of his time, but frankly, I still have much to say about his works, not nearly all of it good.. Therefore, just because JKR wrote HP, it doesn't mean she wrote them perfectly. She's good, but she's still human. Secondly, the better a writer is, the more criticisms she's going to get when she fails to deliver; a bad writer inspires bad reviews and few readers. JKR has convinced me that she's a good writer; I have loved the past five books, not completely but quite immensely. In HBP, she failed to meet her standards. That's not acceptable to me, especially since, in JKR's interviews, I'm being accused of not picking up the perfection of Ginny. JKR's sins are two fold: one, she "tells and doesn't show a story;" two, that now [in]famous interview, which Sienna has eloquently commented about so I won't. When a writer puts her works out there for the general public to read and discuss, what she thinks she's done is no longer relevant, not in the same manner as before. It's now a matter of whether or not her readers think she accomplished what she thought she accomplished. In this case, for many of us (though not all), JKR was thinking one thing and the readers were thinking something else altogether. It isn't a case of a few people being too vocal in their opinions, it seems to be the case that there's quite a number of us who did feel that JKR cheated us, and one or two of those people are even H/G shippers. And by the way, the book's length has little to do with *this* particular matter. As other people have said, we were inundated with the Ron/Lavender scenes. JKR couldn't take even *one* of those scenes away to give us something more substantial on H/G? I mean, JKR said so herself; the H/Hr shippers are scary and numerous. Shouldn't she have at least *tried* to sell *them* on the idea that H/G & R/Hr was not a worse idea ever? And didn't it say anything to her that, even after just one meaningful scene, a whole legion of H/Luna shippers suddenly appeared from nowhere? To me, that last one says that JKR needed just one truly meaningful scene to win over some of us who you claim are "bitching," which I found terribly rude since we've all been very polite in our conversations. As for leaving the H/G relationship to my imagination? In my mind, I saw a girl who's a got "knight in shining armour" complex and a boy who desperately wanted contentment and happiness in love, thus letting his hormones control him until he realized that both her and her are better, and deserve better, than that. In short, I saw a shallow relationship where two friends got together and might have ruined an otherwise perfectly good relationship. What does JKR think I should see? She thinks that Ginny is *perfect* for Harry. Really, when the author's perceptions and the reader's perceptions differ so greatly, you're still going to not even consider that the readers may have some valid comments to make? ~Ali, who apologizes for ranting From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 04:13:49 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:13:49 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136020 "severelysigune" wrote: > Snape's foolishly accepted Unbreakable Vow Nobody is foolish enough to make an Unbreakable Vow on a whim and Snape is far from foolish. > Snape and Bellatrix obviously dislike each > other, and yet there is a seduction going > on: she coaxes him into making a mistake. The Idea that Snape could be seduced like an overly romantic love sick teenager into making such a blunder somehow strikes me as funny. If that turns out to be true just try to imagine how trashy book 7 will be! > To agree to anything like an Unbreakable Vow > seems incredibly na?ve ? It would be na?ve, unless you were only vowing to do what you were already determined to do, to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed to do so. > Why doesn't he tie a bow around Harry and > carry him as a special present to his > Dark Master Because Snape does not have a Dark master although Voldemort thinks he does. Snape has fooled Voldemort just as he fooled Dumbledore and he wants both dead. He's halfway there and to get the other half he needs Harry alive and healthy. >When Dumbledore whispers "Severus please " > he is not pleading for his life, because > he is not afraid to die; neither is he > asking Snape to kill him as arranged, > because there was no such arrangement. > What he means is, "please don't tell me I > was wrong about you all the time I think that's true and tragically in his last few seconds of his life Dumbledore learned the brutal truth, he had been wrong about Snape all the time. Eggplant From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 04:19:22 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:19:22 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136021 Mari Wrote: The ones I can think of I am setting out below (I know these would have been brought up before). I summarised some of this in post number 134540. 1) Saving Harry's life in PS vmonte: If you recall Snape did not know that Quirrell was working for Voldemort during SS/PS. Voldemort kept Snape in the dark. Page 28, HBP, U.S. edition: "I think you wanted to know why I stood between the Dark Lord and the Sorcerer's Stone. That is easily answered. He did not know whether he could trust me. He thought, like you, that I had turned from faithful Death Eater to Dumbledore's stooge...As it was, I saw only greedy and unworthy Quirrell attempting to steal the stone and, I admit, I did all I could to thwart him." Remember Snape had a cushy and safe job at Hogwarts while the other DEs were stuck in Azkaban. Page 27 "I had a comfortable job that I preferred to a stint in Azkaban." Mari: 2) Choosing to go after the trio to the shrieking shack, to protect them from someone he believed was in league with Voldemort, in PoA. vmonte: Well, this is a matter of interpretation. I see a teacher that is more concerned with exacting revenge and getting accolades, than a teacher who is worried about his students. Mari: 3) Trying to convince Fudge in GoF that Voldemort is back, when Voldemort didn't want anyone to know this. vmonte: Moody had already threatened to tell dumbledore that Snape had it in for Harry (I don't think that Snape knew that Moody was Crouch Jr.). Snape probably felt that he had to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore. 4) Alerting the order to what was going on in the Department of Mysteries. vmonte: He took his sweet time didn't he. Funny how he never shows up to anything. Where was he during the fight? Maybe he was afraid of blowing his DE cover you say? He's the Potions Master no? He's got all kinds of potions locked in his room doesn't he? And with all the polyjuice that seems to be floating around Hogwarts you would think that Snape would have some to spare for when he needs to go somewhere in disguise. But I guess not. Vivian From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 04:45:44 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:45:44 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136022 My last post for the day... Sienna :Elizabeth Helmann (www.about.com), argues that potrayal of romance inbooks matters because: "...adolescent girls read in a realist manner, texts represent a dangerous seduction. Girls tend to read romance texts as preparation for the romances they foresee as part of their immediate future." Now me: I agree with this completely. Sienna again: I dare suggest this applies equally (if not more) strongly to pre- adolescent girls. Whether you decide that the H/G subplot is full of positive messages or, like me, potentially dangerous ones, it is still an issue that warrants careful discussion. (Thus my very serious problem with the Ginny versus Hermione characterizations in HBP). I agree with this, too. Which is exactly why I believe, and my student's view supported, that the Harry/Ginny relationship is a POSTIVE role model. 1) Harry with Ginny shows neither the pleasure/pain/confusion that Harry felt with Cho (who I think he was attracted to for her looks and Quidditch skills, not because of qualities that really matter in a relationship) nor the no friendship/no conversation/ just snog type of relationship that Ron has with Lavender. JKR was wise enough to write those relationships in a way that left my student, and surely many more like her, with a sour taste in their mouth. I applaud JKR for showing the contrast between these relationships. 2) Harry's feelings for Ginny follow a path that I think is responsible for young readers to see. They're friends then he realizes he's thinking of her in a different way, and since she's his best mate's sister he tries to talk himself out of these feelings, and as much as Harry would like to punch Dean or whatever, he doesn't make his move until after Dean and Ginny are broken up. Well done. 3) Harry with Ginny shows that the girl has a better chance of getting the guy of her dreams if she's being herself. If not, then he's not the right guy. How many girls out there try and be something they're not just to get a guy? Too many, I think. (In no way do I think that Ginny dated Michael and Dean to make Harry jealous she was just getting on with her life, even if it did have the effect wise Hermione predicted. Similarly, Ginny's quidditch prowess was not intended to win over Harry... we learn she's been breaking in the broom closet since she was six.) 4) It is normal for teens to try romance with often several people. I think it is better for Harry and Ginny that they were not each other's first relationship and better for the adolescent readers as well. 5) Harry with Ginny shows that being friends first can lead to the most satisfying kind of relationship. We read several times that Ginny has made Harry happier than he has been in years that she is his greatest source of comfort. We read that she accepts and understands him. Perhaps she knows "if you love something, set it free " or maybe she'll devise a plan to let Harry know she can be a help, not a risk. 6) Harry doesn't fall for Ginny `cause she's pretty or popular or skilled it's a lot more subtle than that. How much better is it for our kids to see someone being physically attracted ONLY AFTER realizing they like the other person for many more reasons first? 7) Harry's breakup with Ginny (which my pre-teen student did not think was the end) shows the kind of maturity and acceptance that I hope all teens have. Ginny, for all I can guess, is not giving up on Harry but she's letting him do what he Must. Sienna: I know it veers slightly off the topic you have started here, but I think that ultimately it is not about whether Rowling showed them snogging away or not. It is about how she set up the dynamics of the relationships between them and I think she has a greater responsibility there than she accepts. Marianne S: I agree and disagree with that. I agree with the first sentence completely (and I do think you were right ON topic), but I disagree because think JKR accepts her responsibility very well. She doesn't overdo the romance part of her books, but she shows a growing and satisfying relationship in the background, as it should be in a teen's life (as much as they might want to think it's the only thing worth living for). We have to trust JKR that both Harry and Ginny are as happy, comfortable, and important to each other as it says and despite others' feelings to the contrary, I don't see any reason to believe otherwise. JKR also accepts her responsibility by not showing so much detail about Harry's strong feelings for Ginny and their private interaction that it turns off young readers. Yes, adolescent girls are very impressionable and yes, they often look to literature as a model for relating to boys. JKR does not show anything that would scare off readers, but shows what the result of a healthy relationship can be. She is fulfilling her responsibility by making Harry the hero because of his choices because of his love and I wouldn't be surprised if they make some choices to work together in the next book. As a fan and an educator (and, frankly, my students tend to be the ones most likely to be reading these books) I am confident that Rowling lived up to her responsibility in HBP and she makes us anxious for what More we will see in the series' conclusion. Marianne S, who cares not only about the books and the characters, but also about how they influence, educate, and inspire young readers. From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Tue Aug 2 05:15:42 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (profuloth) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:15:42 -0000 Subject: Bill W as DADA in book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorelei3dg" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" > > Does anyone else think that Bill is going to be the DADA in book 7? I am one who believes that Harry isn't going to Hogwarts for his last year. I think he is going to get down to business with his quest. Personally, I don't think Hogwarts would be a very safe place for Harry now that DD isn't around. It definately wouldn't be a safe place for students if Harry were sitting there waiting for Voldy to strike. Too much potential for collateral damage. Of course, if the references to the Phoenix and its strong tie to DD mean that he will rise from his funeral pyre...then I guess HP may go back for a seventh year. Should there be a 7th year at Hogwarts, for whatever reason, here are my predictions: Head Mistress: Minnie McGonagall Slith HoH: Slughorn Grif HofH: Rubius Hagrid HG: H Grainger HB: E McMillian DADA: Someone whom we've not met as of yet...let's face it; Snape is the only one we knew before we picked up the book in which he was made DADA professor. > Lorel responds: > I'd hate to see poor Bill have to suffer any more. Is this a reference to castle battle or his engagement to Phlegm? ;) From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 05:19:16 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:19:16 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136024 eggplant wrote: > It would be na?ve, unless you were only vowing to do what you were > already determined to do, to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed to do so. zgirnius: OK. So you believe that Snape is evil, and he wants to get rid of DD and LV. (Do you favor a Snape wants to be the next Dark Lord theory? I tried to look up your older posts...) Step 1 is to kill DD. Step 2 is to wait for Harry to deal with LV/help Harry deal with LV. And the UV furthers this plan how? A UV a priori limits one's freedom of action. In this specific case, Snape now has to look after Draco...how does this help him? Also, by taking this vow, he has limited himself as to when, under what circumstances, he must kill DD. As it happens, when Draco directly confronts DD he, through some clever planning (using the Vanishing Cabinets to import DEs) and blind luck (catching DD while the latter is 1) debilitated by the potion, and 2) with Harry), creates a lovely opportunity for Snape. But it did not have to be that way. Snape could just as easily have found himself in a position where Draco made an overt move and failed, forcing Snape to try and take on a healthy, armed DD. Hmmm...another thought, why Snape might agree to the UV (regardless of his underlying plans...) Had Snape already been appointed to the DADA position at this time? Maybe this was also The Curse of DADA in action... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 05:29:08 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:29:08 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136025 Eggplant wrote: > But it's clear that Dumbledore did not know about that Unbreakable vow: > > Draco said " He [Snape] hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother_" > Dumbledore replied "Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but_" > > Carol responds: As other posters have pointed out, Dumbledore is interrupted and we don't know what would have followed his "but--." It could easily be, "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but he was also following my orders." Almost certainly Snape was doing both, playing both sides as he does in the conversation with Draco (note that he has "helped" Draco by putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention). We really don't clearly know where snape stands, any more than we know exactly where he stands in "Spinner's End." What we do know is that *Harry* has told Dumbledore that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow. We can't doubt that DD knows what an Unbreakable Vow means, and if he cares about and depends on Snape, as we know he does, he is going to be concerned about such a terrible situation and investigate it. Either Snape has lied to Draco, a tactic DD would wish to question, or Snape has placed himself in a perilous position--and DD does not want Severus Snape, the man who saved him from the ring Horcrux, dead. He will also want to know, if he has not already guessed it, what the vow involves. This is assuming, of course, that Snape has not already told Harry exactly the same story, a possibility Harry silently concedes based on Dumbledore's calm reaction. Dumbledore states that he has known from the outset that Draco is trying to kill him, that the necklace and poisoned mead were intended for him, and that he has ordered Snape to talk to Draco. There can be no doubt that these words are true. He also knows that Snape has told Draco about the Unbreakable Vow, getting no gratitude for this sacrifice from the disrespectful and self-obsessed boy. (Possibly Draco doesn't know what an Unbreakable Vow entails, and surely his statement that Snape is only trying to rob him of his "glory" suggests that he doesn't fully understand the risk that Snape has taken for his sake. In any case, it's important to look closely at Dumbledore's words when Harry tells him about the confrontation between Snape and Draco: "'. . . I understood everything you told me, Harry,' said Dumbledore, a little sharply. 'I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did'" (HBP Am. ed. 359). These words suggest that Dumbledore knows exactly what's going on, including all three provisions of Snape's vow. What neither he nor Snape knows is that Draco has indeed discovered a way to sneak Death Eaters into Hogwarts, and therein lies the flaw in Dumbledore's plan. I want to suggest a possibility without actually arguing for it. I think that Snape found his conversation with Draco a dead end. Draco was no longer respectful toward him, no longer cared about his education, considered Snape's own subject, Defense against the Dark Arts, a joke. (Perhaps he would have been happier at Durmstrang, but his new mission made that impossible.) Snape discovers that Draco is learning Occlumency, but it's a very clumsy, easily detected sort of blocking, one that would be extremely dangerous to use with Voldemort. It's quite likely that Snape, skilled Legilimens that we now know he is, could have gotten past this clumsy masking of Draco's thoughts, but there are (IMO) two reasons why he doesn't attempt it. First, he would alienate Draco even further, perhaps suggesting that Snape's interest in Draco's mission goes beyond his own glory. But also, and I think this is the real reason, he is *afraid* to find out exactly what Draco is doing. (Note Harry's reaction when Snape orders Draco away from Slughorn's party: "He looked angry and--was it possible?--a little afraid," quoted from memory.) If Snape finds out exactly what Draco is up to, he will be bound by the vow to help him do it--or die. I think that's what Snape is arguing with Dumbledore about in the forest and what he means when he says he doesn't want to do it any more. Best not to find out. Best to let him fail. As long as the Death Eaters don't get into the school, as long as the defenses remain and Dumbledore has most of his powers, there is no danger. So rather than watching Draco, Snape grades his DADA essays, unaware that Dumbledore has placed himself in terrible danger just as Draco has figured out how to fix the vanishing cabinet. Until the last moment, when he goes hurtling up the stairs, and maybe even then, he is in denial. He won't have to die or kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore will save the day. But Dumbledore is trapped and dying and Draco has failed to kill him. The vow kicks in at last, and Snape is faced with the two choices that Sigune has outlined and which I won't repeat. At any rate, I think it's significant that the much discussed hatred and revulsion on Snape's face (seen from Harry's point of view) are almost identical to Harry's own feelings as he forces Dumbledore to drink the poison: "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet toward Dumbledore's mouth. . . ." (571). It may be, and we don't know because the book is not written from Snape's point of view, that these words exactly describe Snape's feelings as he raises the wand. But to return to my original point, it *isn't* clear that DD didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow. The evidence seems to point in the other direction. Appearances to the contrary, we don't *know* that Snape is evil. We don't know whether he planned to kill Dumbledore or what, if anything, they planned together. If Dumbledore's ill-fated quest for the Horcrux had not coincided with Draco's success in repairing the vanishing cabinet, it is quite likely that Snape, even ESE!Snape, would have healed Dumbledore as he did before. The vow did not require him to deny Dumbledore help, only to carry out the deed if Draco failed to do it--and Voldemort wanted Draco to try. But it didn't happen that way. The jinx on the DADA position and the Unbreakable Vow combined to make tragedy inevitable. Or that's how I read the cards. Carol From juli17 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 06:04:56 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:04:56 EDT Subject: Explanations but no facts (was Re: Mr. Snape, not Saint Snape Message-ID: <80.2ccde087.30206708@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136026 Julie says: > Oh, and Dumbledore's changed tone came about as Snape walked onto the scene, *before* Snape and Dumbledore even had eye contact. dan: >From HBP - The Lightning Struck Tower "Draco, do it, or stand aside so one of us -" screeched the woman, but at that precise moment the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the four Death Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and Malfoy. "We've got a problem, Snape," said the lumpy Amycus, whose eyes and wand were fixed alike upon Dumbledore, "the boy doesn't seem able -" >From OOP - Chapter 24 "Eye contact is OFTEN essential to Legilimency." (my emphasis) Enough room for a possible betrayal, and time to spot it, by legilimency. But, even more importantly, if so obvious as to be missed, this is the first time Snape has talked about his being on the side of the DE in from of Dumbledore! How long would it take Albus to figure out how closely Snape has been working with them, given their deference to him? By telling Snape the boy doesn't seem to be able to kill Dumbledore, they are asking Snape for advice, assistance, whatever. Doesn't that count for anything? Wouldn't that constitute a big surprise for Albus? At any rate, changing sides is also in keeping with Snape's established character. dan Julie says: I'm not sure why you think Snape being addressed by a fellow DE is something significant. And why would DD need to figure out how closely Snape's been working with the DEs, when it was *DD* who sent Snape back to them in GoF? The DEs are SUPPOSED to think Snape is on their side, so why would DD be surprised by a DE turning to Snape for advice/assistance? So, no, I don't think it counts for anything, and DD's not surprised at all that the DEs assume Snape is on their side. And though it is possible DD was reading Snape's mind via Legilimency even before their eyes met, there's certainly nothing in the text that conclusively points to it. And if DD isn't previously suspicious of Snape and is in fact completely surprised by Snape's "betrayal" then it actually doesn't make sense for him to be legilimensing Snape at this point. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 2 06:07:32 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:07:32 -0000 Subject: Big Bad Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136027 Reposting this message as I accidentally left an attribution to Vivian. I was responding to Julie's comments, not Vivian's. Sorry about that... Salit --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > I thought the original analysis was excellent, but... > > > As to this last sentence, I agree that Dumbledore loved Severus, but > > not only him. > > I don't think DD loved Snape. He respected him for his abilities, > courage (regardless of where he really stands, being a double agent is > a very dangerous job) and what he thought was integrity. But > ultimately Snape was a tool which DD assumed wrongly will act in a > certain way, only to be proven mistaken at the end. > > > I'm sure someone else (besides his mother) loved him. > > That would be hard to do, but I am sure his mother loved him. The > mothers in JKR's world are all selfless and sacrificing to some extent > when it comes to their kids. While several of the fathers (not all, > certainly!) are selfish or tyranical (Riddle, Crouch, Snape, Malfoy > ...), none of the mothers are. Even Riddle's mom's last thought was > for her son (hoping for good looks...). Whether it is Mrs. Potter, > Riddle, Snape, Logbottom, Weasley, Malfoy, Lovegood, Finnigan, etc. > etc. - all moms think only on what is good for their kids - in JKR's > world at least... :-) > > > A friend, a girlfriend, someone. I mean, I think I would have fallen > > for a guy like him in high school: the weird kid, the unpopular, > > smart, wicked sense of humor, sexy (IMO, not Rickman)... He must > > have been a "catch". I would have liked to go out with him ;) > > Sorry, I can't imagine that - have you forgotten the description of a > boy or man who does not take care of his physical needs at all? (dirty > underwear, grizzy hair, runny nose, does he ever shower? :-)). Add to > that his explosive temper, sneakiness and need for dominance - it > would be a very unpleasant partner, to put it mildly - not even taking > his attraction to the Dark Side into account... > > > Yes I > > listen to that music, my fingernails are always black, but I don't > > worship the devil, or anything like that, I consider myself a good > > person, I believe in good, I would never hurt a soul. > > I guess that is where you differ from Snape. Lest we forget, he has > killed at least one person, and was ready to kill more (Sirius)... > > Salit From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 03:43:36 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 03:43:36 -0000 Subject: Theory, Room of Requirements, Horcruxes of Ravenclaw Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136028 As we do not know what Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw left behind at Hogwarts. I have reasons to believe that Ravenclaw left behind the room of requirements. Why? Well, what do we know about Ravenclaw? According to the sorting hat, she must have been clever, sharp and wise. Only a wizard with those qualities would come up with a room, as is the room of requirements. Furthermore, what does Raven represents? It means to seek or seize prey. That could also be denominated as ?to seek for something and find it?. If I am not mistaken, to find the room of requirements one would have to be seeking for something, then it would immediately appear. And of course, I believe it is another Horcruxes. Not with standing, a clue for what Hufflepuff left behind is that, she was loyal and a hard worker. Moreover, the other reason why I believe this could be possible is that it makes sense, since what Gryffindor and Salazar left behinde represents what they are about. OH! And another thing, LV left behind his diary, which was a Horcruxes, but Salazar Slytherin left behind the chamber This is what I found after I read once more, The Chamber of Secrets. Now, like always, I would love to know what you guys think? best wishes always, -Dilia From ongj87 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 04:25:06 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:25:06 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136029 auntydle wrote: > How about this? DD had said that Nagini (Voldemort's snake, did I > spell that right?) is a possible living horcrux. What if, in the > final climactic battle of the 7th book, it turns out that Harry > himself is a living horcrux? In order to destroy Voldemort, he must > destroy himself? First of all, I'm really sorry if I'm not doing this right, I just joined. Yes, I read the rules, but I'm sorry if I missed something. I agree with the theory that Harry is one of Voldemort's horcruxes. It would answer a lot of questions. For instance, it would explain why Harry's a parseltongue, why he was considered for Slytherin, why Harry has an identical wand to Voldemort's, etc. ongj87 From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 06:18:55 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:18:55 -0000 Subject: Dumblydore+Pomfrey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136030 I thought it odd that time was taken for Ginny to draw attention to Mdme Pomfrey's reaction to DD's death. Then I recently read this quote from the book: "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed this much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." Dumbledore Sorcerer's Stone I remember when I read that the first time, and how odd it was that something so benign would cause him to blush. But when you put the two together.....I wonder......Maybe they had a secret brewing... Casmir From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 2 06:50:38 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:50:38 -0000 Subject: Big Bad Snape: the Riddle... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136031 My last comment on this somewhat unsavory subject... :-) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > Juli: I still think he's sexy. Dirty underwear? where does it say so? as I remember his underwear was gray (dirty clothes are yellow IMO) Okay not explicitely but implied... OoP American Edition, PP. 647: "Snape was hanging upside down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of graying underpants." Note: it's "graying", not gray. This implies (to me) that they are not gray underwear but were getting gray due to overuse and underwash... > Lily must have told him to wash because she was hurt after he called > her mudblood. She told him to wash them when she was angry at him, but she did not seem the type to tell someone to wash their underpants if they were clean, regardless of the circumstances: PP. 648: "Lily blinked. 'Fine,' she said coolly. 'I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash my pants if I were you, Snivellus.'" > Greasy hair? couldn't it be some sort of gel or mousse? PP. 593: "A greasy haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies". and PP. 640: "Snape the teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark. His hair was lank and greasy and was flopping onto the table". and later (interesting description touches on the title "Spinner's End"): PP. 643: "Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face". Hardly seems a healthy clean young man, I'd say... > and where does it say he has a runny nose? Here I found no evidence. Sorry. > He must shower, but I don't > know how often, I really don't know the "bathing" habits in the UK, > and in the Wizard World... Europeans don't shower as frequently as Americans do, but if he did shower, he did not seem to wash his hair or clothes... > Juli: Who did he kill? The whole Dumbledore thing is still uncertain. Ha? How so? Pointing a wand at someone while uttering the Killing Curse, strong enough to blast them off the tower is killing in my book, whether it was done by curse, fall or witholding of medical treatment. > And when did he tried to kill Sirius? in PoA when they were in the > Shack? of course he would! he was an escaped convict, even Harry tried > to kill him then. He tried to kill Sirius both in the shack and later in the hospital, despite having been presented evidence to suggest he is innocent. Snape is an evil person. I personally believe that he is nevertheless strangely commited to keeping Harry alive (my guess is another Unbreakable Oath to that end that was made to DD), but he is still evil with a bad end waiting for him... He may redeem himself some by help keeping Harry alive, but not enough to save himself. Salit From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 06:52:12 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:52:12 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > Have been lurking a bit now and have a thought of a possible horcrux. > > Dumbledore says that Voldemort uses things that are significant to him > or trophies. Well, he has a trophy in the school--his award for > special services. > > As we don't the actual process of creating horcrux, this is > speculation, but what if when he came back to the school to apply for > the DADA job, he turned his trophy into a horcrux. It seems something > Voldemort would get a kick out of, having one hidden right under > Dumbledore's nose. Geoff: Like many topics surfacing in the absolute flood of messages after HBP arrived, this one has been touched on before. Back in message 134623, the question of the trophy was brought up - the thread being similarly named "Horcrux Possibilty" and I found the relevant quote and posted it in message 134651. The interesting thought this message brought back to me today is that there is also mention of a /medal/ in the trophy room. So there are two possible ocations for a Horcrux if Tom Riddle decided to leave one at Hogwarts. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Aug 2 07:09:15 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:09:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James saved Snape's life incident & Prank In-Reply-To: <20050801225941.51296.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050801225941.51296.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42EF1C1B.1050601@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136033 Juli wrote: > > Juli: I think both of them (SS and MWPP) cursed each other every time they could, > they weren't bullies (bullies pick on those who were weaker, Snape isn't weak, neither are MWPP). > That's just word games. Until I've seen that legendary "gang of Slytherins" helping Snape, the canon is - Snape was on his own. Sirius and James were two on one, which makes them bullies. (And I'm being generous here, it should really count as four on one. Having two extra friends, who are not actively helping at the moment, but can watch your back and present a threat of joining anytime, is a great help). From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 07:27:51 2005 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Ginny's romance: canon pros and cons (was SHIP: Where is the canon...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802072751.97188.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136034 grindieloe wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: Here's one guess: Harry was so > happy to have won Ginny over that he let his hormones rage too much, > and forced Ginny to have sex with him even though she didn't really > want to. But because it was their first time for both, neither > realised that what happened was technically a rape, and Ginny thinks > it's the way it happens normally to every girl in love. > > If you think it's exxagerated, think again: it does happens to a lot > of kids. This will definately be my last post on this topic, and as I said before, we will need to agree to disagree... With that said, how can you continue to bring up abusive relationships? I see not one reason for anyone to believe that there was any kind of an abusive relationship. Ginny would not be as comfortable around Harry if this were true, and what about Ron? Harry would never disrespect Ginny or Ron in that manner. I just don't see how this can even be considered a possibility when using our imaginations regarding their romantic relationship. I am a Harry/Ginny supporter. You are not. The End. There it is. I'm done. grindieloe I must, respectifully, agree with grindieloe. First off, speaking as abuse survivor, there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that h/g had anything other than a happy, loving, young love, relationship. Secondly, and again with all due respect, in one single post you (del) have turned hp into not only an abuser but a rapist - doesn't this seem like an extremely long stretch to you?? This is our hero, someone that has shown himself to have his flaws - as do all of us - but someone that has also shown himself to be comapssionate, caring, kind, and (do we even need to discuss the number of times this gets brought up??) having an amazing capacity to love. Ok, i'm done for now, I just really felt the need to comment. Beckah Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 07:54:37 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:54:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's About Motive -Revisited Message-ID: <60.5a8d543a.302080bd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136035 In a message dated 7/27/2005 10:16:17 AM Central Standard Time, drjuliehoward at yahoo.com writes: 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? Well according to JKR that comment referred to the letter he left with baby Harry on the Dursley's doorstep. What I want to know is what exactly was in that letter. I think it was more than just the details of what happened to Lily and James ect. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 08:12:22 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 04:12:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes and Bill's injuries Message-ID: <1e0.418058e8.302084e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136036 In a message dated 7/30/2005 6:53:34 PM Central Standard Time, samwisep at yahoo.com writes: HI Potterphiles! When I first read HBP I was convinced that Madam Pomfrey or someone would have Fawkes come and cry over Bill's werewolf injuries, thus healing them. I understand Fawkes was in mourning for Dumbledore though...did anyone else think this while reading the book? Snapeo'phile Actually I didn't. I do believe that there are some magical injuries that just cannot be fixed. Bill's being one of them and DD's hand the other. I did what to touch on that comment about Lockheart and the Homophorous (sp?) charm. I was wondering if that charm rather than 'curing' a werewolf didn't merely transfigure a transformed werewolf back into human form. Once transfigured the werewolf would be unable to tranform at the full moon. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 08:16:46 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:16:46 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136037 Combined answer: Marianne first, then Grindiloe, then Beckah. Marianne wrote: "Which is exactly why I believe, and my student's view supported, that the Harry/Ginny relationship is a POSTIVE role model. " Del replies: It won't surprise you to be told that I disagree, huh :-) ? Marianne wrote: "1) Harry with Ginny shows neither the pleasure/pain/confusion that Harry felt with Cho " Del replies: Myth number 1: True Love makes you feel happy all the time. Marianne wrote: "3) Harry with Ginny shows that the girl has a better chance of getting the guy of her dreams if she's being herself." Del replies: Except that JKR blew that one up by having Ginny reveal that she never gave up on Harry. So Ginny was NOT being herself when she was dating Michael and Dean. She was *never* attracted to either boy, she was only pretending to be. Marianne wrote: "How many girls out there try and be something they're not just to get a guy?" Del replies: As in: "Look, I'm over Harry, I'm dating other boys" ? Marianne wrote: "In no way do I think that Ginny dated Michael and Dean to make Harry jealous " Del replies: Maybe, but that's still what happened, so that's still the message that is given to young girls out there: "date other boys, it will make the one you really want be jealous." Especially since it's the *third* time that something like that happens: there was Hermione/Viktor/Ron, and Cho/Cedric/Harry already. Marianne wrote: "5) Harry with Ginny shows that being friends first can lead to the most satisfying kind of relationship. We read several times that Ginny has made Harry happier than he has been in years that she is his greatest source of comfort." Del replies: Hum, just for the record: we read those things ONCE each. Marianne wrote: "We read that she accepts and understands him. Perhaps she knows "if you love something, set it free " or maybe she'll devise a plan to let Harry know she can be a help, not a risk. " Del replies: Do you want to know what *I* see? I see a relationship that is deemed good by how it makes *the boy* feel. I see a relationship in which the girl is obviously devoted to the boy, but *not once* do we see the boy being devoted to the girl. I see a relationship in which the boy calls the shots and the girl meekly accepts his decisions. I see a girl who is the Perfect Girl for the boy : she loves what he loves - Quidditch, for example - , she knows exactly when to talk or when to shut up, she knows when to act and when to do nothing, and so on. I do NOT see a boy adjusting to a girl who is not The Perfect Girl For Him. I see a girl who hero-worships the boy. For all those reasons and more, I see an extremely DANGEROUS depiction of what a perfect romantic relationship looks like: 1. A girl must make her boy happy. 2. No reciprocation is necessary. The girl takes her pleasure from making the boy happy, and from being with him. 3. A girl must let her boy take the major decisions for the couple. She must not discuss his decisions. 4. A girl must be the Perfect Girl for her boy. 5. A girl must not expect her boy to adjust to her own personality. Instead she must adjust to his. 6. A girl must not bother her boy with her needs and problems. 7. A girl must always be an asset and never a liability for her boy. The day she becomes a liability, she must expect him to dump her. Marianne wrote: "6) Harry doesn't fall for Ginny `cause she's pretty or popular or skilled it's a lot more subtle than that. How much better is it for our kids to see someone being physically attracted ONLY AFTER realizing they like the other person for many more reasons first?" Del replies: Ginny is described as really popular in OoP. At the beginning of HBP, when the Slytherins discuss Ginny, it is obvious that she has been considered very attractive for quite a while already. So when Harry falls for Ginny during the summer, she has been both popular and attractive for a while already. Just as Cho had been. Marianne wrote: "7) Harry's breakup with Ginny (which my pre-teen student did not think was the end) shows the kind of maturity and acceptance that I hope all teens have. Ginny, for all I can guess, is not giving up on Harry but she's letting him do what he Must. " Del replies: As in: "- This is my decision. - Yes dear, whatever you say dear." Horrible. Marianne wrote: "We have to trust JKR that both Harry and Ginny are as happy, comfortable, and important to each other as it says and despite others' feelings to the contrary, I don't see any reason to believe otherwise." Del replies: That's exactly where the danger lay: in ASSUMING. How many girls assume that he won't do "it" again? How many girls assume that they should be happy simply because they are in a relationship with a desirable boy? How many girls assume that if the boy is happy, then they should be happy too? How many girls assume that "it will get better over time"? How many girls assume that starting an argument is a bad thing to do and that they should rather simply agree with what the boy said? Do you know how many? WAY TOO MANY for my taste. Typically, teenage girls are the sacrificial kind: they will drop their own hobbies to accompany their bf to his own, they will drop their own friends to hang out with his gang, they will deny their own needs to keep their bf happy and in the relationship, and so on. And here goes JKR reinforcing that stereotype of the Perfect Girl! I SO MUCH prefer Hermione's example! Hermione doesn't let Ron (or Viktor) put her through her paces, she doesn't feel like she has to be the Perfect Girl for him, she isn't afraid to make him unhappy or angry, and she definitely won't let him take a one-sided decision concerning them both. Marianne wrote: "JKR also accepts her responsibility by not showing so much detail about Harry's strong feelings for Ginny and their private interaction that it turns off young readers. Yes, adolescent girls are very impressionable and yes, they often look to literature as a model for relating to boys. JKR does not show anything that would scare off readers, but shows what the result of a healthy relationship can be." Del replies: Except that she shows ONLY the BOY's side! Not a word about how the GIRL feels. She makes the success of the relationship hang only on what effect it has on the boy. And that is an extremely WRONG message to give to impressionable teenage girls, IMO. --- On to Grindieloe, in message 136016. Grindieloe wrote: "With that said, how can you continue to bring up abusive relationships?" Del replies: Because they are the perfect example of relationships that are not what they appear to be. They very often appear to be happy, fulfilling, beautiful, whatever, and even the victims often think of them as wonderful, at least at first. But they are rotten at the core. Grindieloe wrote: "I see not one reason for anyone to believe that there was any kind of an abusive relationship." Del replies: That's not what I said. What I did say is that we don't see enough interaction between Harry and Ginny to *exclude* an abusive relationship. We know that Harry is happy, period. Well, both abusers and victims are often happy at first, so it doesn't mean anything. Grindieloe wrote: "Ginny would not be as comfortable around Harry if this were true," Del replies: Not true. If the victims were always uncomfortable around their abusers, then many more people would notice that something is wrong. Abuse is so common and is allowed to last for so long precisely because the victims do NOT show to the public eye that something is wrong. Grindieloe wrote: "and what about Ron?" Del replies: What about Ron?? Grindieloe wrote: "Harry would never disrespect Ginny or Ron in that manner." Del replies: That's exactly what many people say when they find out that someone is abusing someone else: "S/he would NEVER!" Grindieloe wrote: "I just don't see how this can even be considered a possibility when using our imaginations regarding their romantic relationship." Del replies: Let me see: * I see a boy who imposes his will on his girl. * I see a boy who doesn't care to hurt his girl as long as it makes things easier for him. * I see a relationship that is deemed good because it makes the boy happy, but nothing is said about the girl. * I see a relationship where we don't know anything of what happens when they are together. * I remember that this boy had the habit of shouting loud and long to force his female best friend to shut up in the last book. * I also remember that this boy didn't care one bit what his former girlfriend needed, and that he got angry when it was explained to him what her emotional needs were. I remember that this boy had a mental image of what he wanted his former girlfriend to be, and that he didn't like it when she didn't conform. * And of course, I remember that this boy was raised without love, that he was emotionally abused or at least neglected as a kid, and that he doesn't have a parental figure to turn to for counsel anymore. For all those reasons and more, I see a boy who is a potential abuser indeed. Maybe not a physical one, but an emotional one for sure. Now, I sincerely doubt that JKR would make Harry abuse Ginny. But the fact remains that she gave many clues that he could be, and none that their relationship is in fact healthy. Grindieloe wrote: "I am a Harry/Ginny supporter. You are not. The End." Del replies: How many times will I have to say it? I AM a H/G supporter, I ALWAYS was a H/G supporter. But that doesn't mean that I am going to accept this fake and cheap romance as The Real Deal. Just because I was bought to the idea long before HBP came out doesn't mean that JKR can screw it up like that. And I notice that you didn't address any of my counter-examples. --- Beckah wrote, in message 136034: "First off, speaking as abuse survivor, there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that h/g had anything other than a happy, loving, young love, relationship." Del replies: I disagree. There *are* signs. Beckah wrote: "Secondly, and again with all due respect, in one single post you (del) have turned hp into not only an abuser but a rapist - doesn't this seem like an extremely long stretch to you??" Del replies: No it doesn't, because it happens way too often in the Real World. Nice boys who don't know enough about love and romance to know where to stop, and girls who don't know what they can accept or not. Beckah wrote: "This is our hero, someone that has shown himself to have his flaws - as do all of us - but someone that has also shown himself to be comapssionate, caring, kind, and (do we even need to discuss the number of times this gets brought up??) having an amazing capacity to love." Del replies: I'm an abuse survivor too. I know for a fact that abusers can be compassionate, caring, kind and loving. The stereotype that only bad, selfish, cruel people are abusers is just that: a stereotype. If more people knew how flawed that stereotype is, maybe there would be less abuse in this world. Now, as I said, I don't think that JKR means for Harry to abuse Ginny. However, way too many signs are there for my taste, and JKR does not address them. In fact, she even seems to consider them a good thing! So I'm asking: how are girls supposed to be concerned about those signs, when JRK is telling them that it's OK as long as the boy really loves them, and when she doesn't SHOW them what a loving relationship looks like? All she does is tell them that a loving relationship makes the boy happy. Many spouse abuse victims similarly believe that if they can make their partner perfectly happy, then the abuse will stop... And many teenage girls believe that if they make their boy perfectly happy, then they (the girls) will be perfectly happy too, and the relationship will be an endless bliss. I'm sorry, but I just don't SEE the romance between Harry and Ginny being such a good thing, and I will not settle for anyone TELLING me that it is. This is exactly what too many girls already do: they TELL themselves that everything is OK, when it's not. Del From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 08:25:20 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:25:20 -0000 Subject: purpose of two-way communication mirror etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > That silly mirror that Sirius gives HP in OoTP has been the source of a good deal of discussion. Regulus Black has the other mirror (perhaps found it in Grimauld place...perhaps he had another...perhaps he even bought it off Mundungus) and will use it to contact HP in book 7. > > Jake > I was surprised by a 2way mirror being introduced in book 5 after all the trouble a time turner caused in book 3, because the last thing the stories needed was another plot device that could be a loose cannon. If this manner of communication exists, the lead characters need never be separated - it's like the WW version of a trendy mobile video-phone. And it's a perfect bugging device for any dodgy characters to spy on HP and the rest, and vice versa. Harry could, under his cloak, have left one in the Slytherin common room, and picked up all kinds of snippets of info, or left one in Snape's room and so on. The possibilities are endless. And that makes me wonder - if the spell exists for the Weasley twins to make extendable ears for a little prying, it can't be too difficult to perform. So how come the principle had never been adapted by the wizarding powers-that-be to listen in on suspected Death Eaters? Sandra From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 08:31:38 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:31:38 -0000 Subject: How do they communicate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136039 Apologies if this has already been done, but seeing as the WW has no idea about electricity and many things which we take for granted, how do they get in touch with each other if they just fancy a chat? I remember Mr Weasley having trouble with using a phone at the start of book 2 (I think) so I'm assuming that these people don't always have to apparate in each other's rooms when they want to say hello? It's an area which I might have missed. I was replying to a 2 Way Mirror topic, and it got me wondering. Either the WW is full of multi-way mirrors, or there's some other means that might have been mentioned. Sandra From samwisep at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 08:43:41 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:43:41 -0000 Subject: what exactly ARE dementors?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136040 Hi Potterphiles! There are many, many descriptions of how dementors make you feel (ie:cold, like you will never be happy again) and what they do(give you the "kiss", suck out your soul. BUT, what ARE dementors? Are they wizard made?(to guard Azkaban) or are they like hags, trolls and goblins? Seperate creatures unto themselves? I have read each book except the last one four or five times, and I don't remember them ever saying how dementors came about. Snapeo'phile From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 08:53:29 2005 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:53:29 -0000 Subject: How do they communicate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136041 Sandra wrote: > Apologies if this has already been done, but seeing as the WW > has no idea about electricity and many things which we take for > granted, how do they get in touch with each other if they just fancy > a chat? I remember Mr Weasley having trouble with using a > phone at the start of book 2 (I think) so I'm assuming that these > people don't always have to apparate in each other's rooms > when they want to say hello? It's an area which I might have > missed. I was replying to a 2 Way Mirror topic, and it got me > wondering. Either the WW is full of multi-way mirrors, or there's > some other means that might have been mentioned. Diana: It is my impression that wizards who fancy a chat can just use floo power and stick their head in their fireplace like Amos did when talking to Arthur in GoF, Sirius did when talking to Harry in GoF and OotP, and Harry did when talking to Sirius and Lupin in OotP. For wizards without a fireplace, I would guess they could send an owl inviting the other wizard to pop over for a chat. I would doubt that there are lots of two-way mirrors in the WW just because it would seem to fall under muggle objects that had been charmed.... Diana L. From troelsfo at yahoo.dk Tue Aug 2 08:55:20 2005 From: troelsfo at yahoo.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:55:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] what exactly ARE dementors?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802085520.32714.qmail@web33015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136042 Samantha wrote: Hi Potterphiles! There are many, many descriptions of how dementors make you feel (ie:cold, like you will never be happy again) and what they do(give you the "kiss", suck out your soul. BUT, what ARE dementors? Are they wizard made?(to guard Azkaban) or are they like hags, trolls and goblins? Seperate creatures unto themselves? I have read each book except the last one four or five times, and I don't remember them ever saying how dementors came about. If you wish to get at it, the same problem exists for most of the other magical races: there is no indication of how Peeves came about (except that he never lived), or how the house elves, the centaurs, the goblins or whatever came about. In a few cases, such as e.g. the basilisk, we get information about the creation process, but in most cases these creatures merely inhabit this world: they are ancienct and 'came about' in the same way as the humans that inhabit it: through the imagination of the author. I think we need to realise that however much we might wish it were different, there are a lot of things in Potterverse that just are. They are because Rowling has imagined them to be part of this world, but within the story there is no explanation of how they come to be. Regards, Troels Forchhammer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 09:15:34 2005 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:15:34 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136043 Sigune previously: > > Snape's foolishly accepted Unbreakable Vow Eggplant: > Nobody is foolish enough to make an Unbreakable Vow on a whim and > Snape is far from foolish. Sigune again: It's not a whim, exactly - see below. But I maintain that it is foolish, dangerous and final. Sigune previously: > > Snape and Bellatrix obviously dislike each > > other, and yet there is a seduction going > > on: she coaxes him into making a mistake. Eggplant: > The Idea that Snape could be seduced like an overly romantic love sick teenager into making such a blunder somehow strikes me as funny. If that turns out to be true just try to imagine how trashy book 7 will be! < Sigune again: Oh dear! If I gave the impression that Snape is lovesick, let alone romantic, then my words came out quite differently from what I meant! Please allow for a broad use of the word 'seduction' - there is intellectual seduction as well as sexual, and the seduction of power and glory; I assure you I have an absolutely unromantic and unsentimental view of Snape. Bellatrix is staunchly loyal to Voldemort and doesn't trust Snape at all; all through the conversation she tries to get him to make a mistake. It is to impress her that Snape agrees to the Vow. As for Narcissa, I have tried to show that the charm she works on Snape is not that of sex, really, but the fact that she appeals to his vanity and works on his weaknesses. Snape is a half-blood who seems to have consistently sought the company of pure-bloods, a commoner who likes to think of himself as a Prince, a wizard who doesn't receive the recognition he craves. Narcissa touches upon all that. What does it for him is not so much the fact that he has a woman at his feet; it is that he has a rich, upper-class pureblood humbly begging for his help. And yes, I call that a seduction of sorts. Combine it with the need to maintain his cover in front of Voldie's dear Bella and snap, he's in. Sigune previously: > > To agree to anything like an Unbreakable Vow > > seems incredibly na?ve ? Eggplant: > It would be na?ve, unless you were only vowing to do what you were already determined to do, to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed to do so. < Sigune again: I'm afraid I must beg to differ. If Snape's aim was to kill Dumbledore, why should he first give Draco a chance? And do you think Snape sees a killer in Draco to begin with? Snape has had plenty of opportunities for killing Dumbledore without Draco's interference, and I daresay he'd have made a cleaner and more efficient job of it. How about if he had said, "Terribly sorry Headmaster, but that thing with your hand - impossible to heal. It was an honour to have worked with you. Rest in peace." But he doesn't. Sigune previously: > > Why doesn't he tie a bow around Harry and > > carry him as a special present to his > > Dark Master Eggplant: > Because Snape does not have a Dark master although Voldemort thinks he does. Snape has fooled Voldemort just as he fooled Dumbledore and he wants both dead. He's halfway there and to get the other half he needs Harry alive and healthy. < Sigune again: I must be missing something here, but I really can't see what Snape stands to gain by Dumbledore's death. Voldemort's death, that I can understand. But by killing Dumbledore, Snape has lost *all*: his mentor, his protector, his safehouse, his job, his income - you name it. Cut in his own flesh, he has. He wouldn't have done it if he felt he had another choice. Sigune previously: > >When Dumbledore whispers "Severus please " > > he is not pleading for his life, because > > he is not afraid to die; neither is he > > asking Snape to kill him as arranged, > > because there was no such arrangement. > > What he means is, "please don't tell me I > > was wrong about you all the time Eggpant: > I think that's true and tragically in his last few seconds of his life Dumbledore learned the brutal truth, he had been wrong about Snape all the time.< Sigune: Eggplant, you are a pessimist :-). Can we do anything to cure you? Yours severely, Sigune (no longer depressed by HBP and again fully trusting Snape - because Dumbledore said we should AND because Snape looks so totally evil ...) From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 09:26:55 2005 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:26:55 -0000 Subject: what exactly ARE dementors?? In-Reply-To: <20050802085520.32714.qmail@web33015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136044 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > If you wish to get at it, the same problem exists for most of the other magical races: there is no indication of how Peeves came about (except that he never lived), or how the house elves, the centaurs, the goblins or whatever came about. Diana: Actually, poltergeists (which is what Peeves is) are believed to form around adolescents/teenagers due to the massive angst, hormones, mood swings and high engergy emitted throughout puberty. Some scientists believe they are literally balls of energy formed from the free-floating anxiety that permeates puberty and that that energy manifests itself by moving (usually, violently) objects and creating mayhem. Other scientists believe that tweens undergoing puberty attract 'restless' entities that find all the energy being emitted by the changing bodies exciting and that they end up moving objects and causing mayhem because of the stimulation. There's probably at least a dozen more theories about poltergeists out there in scientific and paranormal journals. I really like how JKR touched upon this 'side-effect' of puberty by adding Peeves to the Potterverse. JKR said in her Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview that, despite what Filch thinks, Dumbledore couldn't get rid of Peeves even if he tried. A thousand children and teenagers crammed into one castle, a magical one no less, is going to produce enormous currents of adolescent angst and pubescent energy. It's no wonder Peeves is brightly colored and boisterous - he's got more energy being poured into his existence than the electrical system lighting up New York! :) Troels Forchhammer wrote: > In a few cases, such as e.g. the basilisk, we get information about the creation process, but in most cases these creatures merely inhabit this world: they are ancienct and 'came about' in the same way as the humans that inhabit it: through the imagination of the author. Diana: Many of the creatures in the Potterverse are taken from mythical beasts or from works of literature. The actual myths surrounding each beast will usually, but not always, explain the creatures' origins. There are even conflicting orgin stories for some creatures. JKR made her own changes to each creature we hear about in detail in order to suit the needs of the story she's telling, so the myths may not match up, of course. (Everyone probably already knows about and has this book, and "Quidditch Through the Ages", but I thought I'd mention it in case some had not.) I'd recommend reading JK Rowlings book "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them", which she wrote as if it were Harry's book - complete with Harry's scribblings in it. This book was done for charity a few years ago. It gives all kinds of fun and interesting details about the non-human creatures in the Potterverse. Troels Forchhammer wrote: > I think we need to realise that however much we might wish it were different, there are a lot of things in Potterverse that just are. They are because Rowling has imagined them to be part of this world, but within the story there is no explanation of how they come to be. Diana: Ah, if only we could all chant "I do believe in magic!", ala Peter Pan bringing Tinkerbell back to life, making the Potterverse come to life. Guess we'll just have to settle for the books and our imaginations. :) Diana L. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 2 09:29:40 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:29:40 -0400 Subject: Sirius' attempted murder of Snape Message-ID: <003201c59744$b5a273a0$90c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136045 Lisa responds: >>My problem with that explanation is that Sirius, James and Peter are unregistered animagi -- they became such so that they could hang around with Lupin and not be in danger. Therefore, they all knew that danger existed to anyone else CathyD now: Wow, this is getting out of hand. Attempted murder? DD says Sirius was not a cruel man. Yes, at that moment he was talking about his dealings with Kreacher. However. Doesn't anyone see that Sirius sent Snape to the Whomping Willow to get... Whomped? Certainly he told him all he had to do was prod the knot...but did he think he'd achieve that or get the snot beaten out of him by the tree? Or, Snape get caught there by the tree (Lupin said they were banned from going near it after Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye) and get himself expelled instead of getting the Marauders expelled as he was trying to do? Alla said: >>Oh, and here is my favorite question of all times why would Snape stop and listen to ANYTHING Snape says? <-- I think you meant Sirius CathyD again: Heck, I've been wondering THAT for years. Remember when Umbridge offered Harry some tea, and the cat plates on the wall reminded him of Moody's blue eye? He wondered what Moody would think of him accepting a drink from a known enemy. Although we know it was fake Veritaserum, he didn't at the time, but that memory was enough to make him not drink the tea. What WAS Snape thinking listening to anything Sirius would tell him to do? Marianne S said: >> I believe both Sirius and Lupin said that Snape hexed and taunted them as much as he was hexed and taunted by James and Sirius. It makes me almost wonder how Snape got away with it all... why wasn't his name ever in the files Harry was re-writing? CathyD again: For the same reason that Malfoy's name never ended up there, perhaps? Maybe Slughorn was the Snape of his day..and Snape would have been a favourite (I don't doubt he was in the Slug Club). Of course, we don't see Snape as a favourite of Slug's here, because he's too busy kissing up to Harry with stories about Lily. Guru said: >>The least he should have expected was that they were going to take his wand, strip him naked, and use a binding curse to tie him to the WW. I mean, what did he expect from a bunch of rowdy frat boys? CathyD: EXACTLY! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 09:48:40 2005 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:48:40 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136046 severelysigune previously: > > Although he had not originally agreed to it, he has magically pledged himself to kill Albus Dumbledore. Dear dear, he is in deep ? you know. < < zgirnius: > This is one point I see differently. I do not believe that at this point Snape knows *what* he has committed himslef to. Like, you , I saw Snape's actions as being influenced/motivated by Cissy and Bella's good cop/bad cop routine, btu I did not think that was *all* there was to the scene. My suspicion is that Snape did not know what the mission was, and a major reason Snape worked to gain Cissy's trust was to learn this secret. He pretended he did know as part of a ploy to worm some details out which would allow him to figure it out. (The language used by both Cissy and Bella to describe this task would get any spy interested.) < Sigune again: The only quabble I have with the idea that Snape didn't actually know what the mission comprised is that the Vow would put him in an even more extremely awkward position then. I mean, is there any elegant way of finding out what he has committed to? And whom must he ask? Draco? Voldemort? It will look weird and he will have to confess that he initially only pretended to know what he's doing. In any case his actions would make Voldemort frown: suddenly Snape carries out a task he wasn't supposed to know about in the first place? My sceptical self is inclined to think that the secrecy about the terms of the mission in the "Spinner's End" chapter is all about JKR wriggling not to give away too many plot points. She can't have us know from chapter two what Draco is up to - nor what Snape has been pledged to do. zgirnius: > So I think Snape is at this point commmitted to carry out a mission, and he doesn't even know what it is. Whichever of us is right, I entirely agree that he did not go running to DD with the whole story...at the very least he would want to figure out first what it is that he had just committed himself to do. I'm not sure if he knows already at the Christmas party conversation with Draco...in factm he may be hoping that his disclosure to Draco about the UV will cause Draco to confide in him. < Sigune: I certainly agree with the confidence bit in general. I think Snape recognises a lot of himself in Draco (something which Dumbledore has already foreshadowed in PS, comparing Draco-Harry to Snape-James) and he knows very well what straits Malfoy Jr is in. Apart from that, he needs to know the particulars of Draco's plan if he wants to know how to interfere (in whichever way). Unfortunately Draco is a horrible, stubborn prat and thinks he's better than Snape, having been entrusted (the little idiot; at least Snape knows it should read "punished") with an Important Mission... If he had told Snape about the Vanishing Cabinets, things might have turned out quite differently. zgirnius: > There has been a lot written (in numerous posts) about that AK of Snape's...it differs some from other AKs we have seen in its immediate effect (blasting DD into the air instead of just dropping him where he stood) and in the appearance of its victim after the death (eyes closed, peaceful expression). I don't think, though, that this has to mean the death was prearranged. One possilibity is that this could be how a failed AK acts. We've never been shown one which hit the target but *failed* before. We know this can happen with other Unfrogivables, as for example when Harry tries to Crucio Bella in OotP. Alternatively, Snape might have considered the possibility of failure and used a nonverbal spell to cause a flash of green light and throw DD off the tower, speaking the words Avada Kedavra for the benefit of the watching DEs. Finally, it could just be how Snape's AKs work, as apposed to LV's or Pettigrew's. < Sigune: Yes, I have read many theories concerning that AK, too. It just seems that we haven't got much canon to argue either way... As far as I can see, when just about any spell is cast with great force, it can blast you off your feet - I'm thinking, for example, Snape's Expelliarmus against Lockheart, and the Trio's combined Expelliarmuses against Snape in the Shack, when we know the spell is supposed to just disarm you. Snape, despite his disparaging comments on wand-waving, seems to like his bangs; to me it just looked like he cast the AK with violence, possibly because he was very agitated and therefore lacked control. Needless to say, I'm really hoping that my view is too bleak, that Dumbledore planned it all, that he isn't really dead and that Snape didn't really kill him, but right now I just can't see that :-)... Yours severely, Sigune (who is truly happy that you liked her post, zgirnius) From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 11:05:41 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:05:41 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136047 > > Geoff: > Like many topics surfacing in the absolute flood of messages after HBP > arrived, this one has been touched on before. > > Back in message 134623, the question of the trophy was brought up - the > thread being similarly named "Horcrux Possibilty" and I found the > relevant quote and posted it in message 134651. > > The interesting thought this message brought back to me today is that > there is also mention of a /medal/ in the trophy room. So there are two > possible ocations for a Horcrux if Tom Riddle decided to leave one at > Hogwarts. It's a possibility of course, but somehow I doubt that DD meant the word `trophy' as an official token of acknowledgment, like the Quidditch Cup or some such thing. I think he meant it more like a personal memento, something that would not make sense for anyone else but LV himself. B.t.w., am I the only one who founds that *hor*-crux sounds slightly indecent? a_svirn From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 11:05:23 2005 From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:05:23 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136048 Sigune previously: < < Snape does some quick thinking and sees that there are two options. 1) He openly declares his allegiance to Dumbledore. This means that he has to put up a fight against four skilled Death Eaters plus Draco. Assuming that he can defeat them, - Draco's mission fails and the brat is killed by the Dark Lord in punishment. - Snape himself dies too, because he has failed to honour his Unbreakable Vow. - There is no chance of saving Dumbledore, who is too far gone to begin with, and who is going to heal him if Snape is dead? Result: the Order is one leader and one spy short and a young life is destroyed in a pointless battle. But at least Harry will be convinced that Snape, God rest his soul, was on the side of the angels after all. 2) He kills Dumbledore. This means that - He saves Draco's life, because the mission has been successful even if not carried out by Draco and the Dark Lord cannot be all that displeased. On top of that, Draco isn't a murderer at sixteen. - He saves his own life because he honours his Vow. - He extremely convincingly maintains his cover as a spy. Result: By sacrificing the already lost life of a dying 150-year- old wizard, he saves a sixteen-year-old (buying him time to think things over), himself, and safeguards one of the Order's most significant pawns in the coming confrontation with the Dark Lord. Drawback is that nobody trusts him anymore; but judging by people's reactions, nobody except Dumbledore and Hagrid did trust him to begin with. << Marianne: > I think the one thing that bothers me with the scenario is that > Snape has to have realized that it would eventually come down to > someone dying. Do you think he was trying throughout the year to > somehow come up with a counter-plan that would keep the 3 of them > alive (Snape, Draco, DD)? Or are you saying that Snape knew > eventually he'd be faced with a horrible situation and that then > he'd make what he considered the best choice at the time? Sigune again: The trouble with this kind of speculation is that we don't know quite enough of the magical specifics in order to give a really good answer, I think. My first thought was: why doesn't Dumbledore dissolve that Unbreakable nuisance? But if it truly is *unbreakable* then even a wizard of Dumbledore's stature couldn't remove it. It also means that as soon as Snape says yes to the third clause, he will at some point in the future have to choose between his own life and Dumbledore's - *if Draco fails*. Snape must have known that sooner or later he'd find himself in the circumstance where he has to choose to either obey or disobey his Vow, to kill Dumbledore or be killed. The third clause only really kicks in when he arrives on the battlement where the scene for the murder is set: Draco is facing an unarmed Dumbledore and he doesn't get himself to do the dirty deed. If Snape so much as turns around and walks away, he is a dead man. He must either kill or die. Coming to think of it, there is one option I didn't mention before: he could egg Draco on to do the killing yet. He doesn't. My guess is that yes, Snape must have been desperately seeking a way around the Vow, only to realise that there really was none (- to me, that is the meaning of the argument in the forest). What we see Snape do is 1) try to hamper the mission without touching Draco, by giving Crabbe and Goyle detention; 2) trying to worm the particulars of the plan out of Draco in order to report them to Dumbledore. That covers about all the wriggling space he has. It also shows that this early, he has already made one choice: if it's up to him, Draco will fail. That alone is already proof of the fact that he isn't "teh ebil", to use what is apparently a fashionable term. Only Voldemort has no qualms at the thought of making a sixteen-year-old into a murderer. Marianne: > And that's been my interpretation of DD's words - that he believed, at least for a moment, that he had been wrong about Snape. Maybe there was some Legilimens going on between the two, as some have theorized, and DD was then able to see the situation Snape had been in all year and quite possibly recognize that the best choice was for Snape to save Draco by killing DD. But, I wonder, if that was indeed the case, if there was not some residual thought in DD's brain of "Severus, if only you had trusted me enough to tell me the whole story of the Unbreakable Vow..." < Sigune: No matter how you read it, it's a truly horrible moment. I hadn't allowed for Legilimency in my original post, which is probably a mistake. That said, I'd like to know who was reading and who was being read... From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 11:17:05 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:17:05 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > Sigune previously: > > > Snape's foolishly accepted Unbreakable Vow > > Eggplant: > > Nobody is foolish enough to make an Unbreakable Vow on a whim and > > Snape is far from foolish. > > Sigune again: > It's not a whim, exactly - see below. But I maintain that it is > foolish, dangerous and final. > > > Sigune previously: > > > To agree to anything like an Unbreakable Vow > > > seems incredibly na?ve ? > > Eggplant: > > It would be na?ve, unless you were only vowing to do what you were > already determined to do, to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed to do > so. < > >> > Sigune previously: > > > Why doesn't he tie a bow around Harry and > > > carry him as a special present to his > > > Dark Master > > Eggplant: > > Because Snape does not have a Dark master although Voldemort thinks > he does. Snape has fooled Voldemort just as he fooled Dumbledore and > he wants both dead. He's halfway there and to get the other half he > needs Harry alive and healthy. < > > Sigune again: > I must be missing something here, but I really can't see what Snape > stands to gain by Dumbledore's death. Voldemort's death, that I can > understand. But by killing Dumbledore, Snape has lost *all*: his > mentor, his protector, his safehouse, his job, his income - you name > it. Cut in his own flesh, he has. He wouldn't have done it if he felt > he had another choice. I have to agree with Snape not gaining very much from DD's death. I seriously doubt that Snape's next stop is tea with Voldemort. Will Voldemort be happy that one of his DE's succeeded in doing what he didn't--Sir Snape killed the wizard that Voldemort feared? Snape led Narcissa to believe that using Draco was a plot to get him killed, a payback for Lucius (and now we know it was an even bigger payback than losing the prophecy, for he lost part of Voldemort's soul by tossing the Diary to an 11 year old). Really, how happy is Voldemort going to be with Snape after he figures it all out...sneaky late night visitors to Spinner's End having conversations that Voldemort ordered them not to have, helping Narcissa thwart Voldemort's plan for the Malfoys, Bella will spin the incident like she did in the MOM and none of it will be her fault. Aren't we sure good old Wormtail heard some of the conversation while they were bound together with the firey ropes since Wormtail was put there by Voldemort in the first place to spy? I really don't think there will be a hero's welcome for Snape at all. It does seem like Snape bit off more than he could chew, he seems to have a pattern of poking his hooked nose in things and making decisions based on his faulty reasoning that he is in control that end up biting him in the bum(following teenage!Lupin; leaving his memories unattended for Harry to experience; overhearing the prophecy and carrying it back to Voldemort; and now taking this vow and doing everything he can to control Draco). From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 2 11:22:08 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:22:08 -0400 Subject: SHIP Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness Message-ID: <001201c59754$6bd5fc00$34c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136050 lebeto said: >>Then the true love of his life suddenly appears and the same stages take maybe three chapters. One could look back and say Ginny had a crush on him and they both have seen the darkness of Voldemort, but there was no reciprication of her feelings until this book. There would be nothing wrong with this except JKR herself said that Ginny was the perfect woman and such a fast relationship seems more like an infatuation. CathyD now: Geez, I really have been trying to stay out of this SHIP business, but... Ginny *did* have a crush on Harry, from the very first book. When Fred and George told Mrs. W that they had met Harry on the train, Ginny wanted to go meet him. Yes, possibly she wanted to meet the 'famous' Harry that all the WW had talked about for years, but still, she wanted to meet him. She chased after the train, and yes, she wanted to go to Hogwarts and not be left alone with just her Mom and no brothers at home. At the end of PS we have Ginny shouting and pointing "Harry Potter, look Mum I can see..." In CoS we find out just how far the 'crush' went. She wouldn't speak to him, was different than usual ("you don't know how weird it is for her to be this shy, she never shuts up normally --"), had 'accidents' (perfect forshadowing to Tonks/Lupin). She sent Harry a Valentine that was sung in front of half the school, not to mention Fred & George singing it later in the Common Room. And horror of horrors, Harry saves Ginny's life. She's not around much in PoA though she did make Harry a get well card which sang if he didn't keep his bowl of fruit on top. Maybe she's doing what Hermione told her, getting on with life and going out with other boys. Same for GoF. She goes to the ball with Neville, she wasn't even in their compartment on the train on the way back to King's Cross. In OotP she's the one who can tell Harry what possession by Voldemort is really like. She's the one who takes his place on the Quidditch team and tells him he won't be banned for life, only until Umbridge is gone (and since Umbridge is the DADA teacher...). She initiates the first 'diversion' to get Harry into the fireplace in Umbridge's office so he can talk to Sirius. She arranges the situation for the second visit to Umbridge's office. She insisted on going with HRH to London. She was there in the DoM. There may have been no 'reciprication' until HBP, Harry clearly saw her as a friend, as the sister of his best friend, and didn't want to cross any lines or ruin any friendships. We do watch Ginny grow from an infatuated little girl to a very strong young woman (IMO). She's taking no guff from either Fred and George or Ron, about anything. Nor did she mince words with Hermione. I don't think Mrs. Weasley is going to be able to stop her going to fight with Harry if that is what she decides to do in book 7. I think one thing some of us are forgetting is that this book is written, for the most part, from Harry's point of view. That precludes us knowing what is going on in Ginny's head, although we do find that out, a bit, during the break-up scene. She'd never really given up on Harry, just waited until they were both ready. I've wanted Harry and Ginny together since CoS. Not because he saved her, but from the beginning of the book: "Life at The Burrow was as different as possible from his life in Privet Drive....What Harry found most unusual about life at Ron's.....it was the fact that everybody there seemed to like him." Oh, and just for the record, I had a first date with my husband on June 30th, we married on Oct 12th and we'll be celebrating our 21st anniversary this year. Fast doesn't necessarily mean infatuation. It's being able to sort the wheat out of the chaff. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 11:43:55 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:43:55 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136051 > Marianne wrote: > "Which is exactly why I believe, and my student's view supported, that > the Harry/Ginny relationship is a POSTIVE role model. " > > Del replies: > It won't surprise you to be told that I disagree, huh :-) ? > > > Marianne wrote: > "3) Harry with Ginny shows that the girl has a better chance of > getting the guy of her dreams if she's being herself." > > Del replies: > Except that JKR blew that one up by having Ginny reveal that she never > gave up on Harry. So Ginny was NOT being herself when she was dating > Michael and Dean. She was *never* attracted to either boy, she was > only pretending to be. > > Marianne wrote: > "We read that she accepts and understands him. Perhaps she knows "if > you love something, set it free " or maybe she'll devise a plan to let > Harry know she can be a help, not a risk. " > > Del replies: > Do you want to know what *I* see? > > I see a relationship that is deemed good by how it makes *the boy* feel. > > I see a relationship in which the girl is obviously devoted to the > boy, but *not once* do we see the boy being devoted to the girl. > > I see a relationship in which the boy calls the shots and the girl > meekly accepts his decisions. > > I see a girl who is the Perfect Girl for the boy : she loves what he > loves - Quidditch, for example - , she knows exactly when to talk or > when to shut up, she knows when to act and when to do nothing, and so > on. I do NOT see a boy adjusting to a girl who is not The Perfect Girl > For Him. > > I see a girl who hero-worships the boy. > > Marianne wrote: > "7) Harry's breakup with Ginny (which my pre-teen student did not > think was the end) shows the kind of maturity and acceptance that I > hope all teens have. Ginny, for all I can guess, is not giving up on > Harry but she's letting him do what he Must. " > > Del replies: > As in: > > "- This is my decision. > - Yes dear, whatever you say dear." > > > And here goes JKR reinforcing that stereotype of the Perfect Girl! > > > > Marianne wrote: > "JKR also accepts her responsibility by not showing so much detail > about Harry's strong feelings for Ginny and their private interaction > that it turns off young readers. Yes, adolescent girls are very > impressionable and yes, they often look to literature as a model for > relating to boys. JKR does not show anything that would scare off > readers, but shows what the result of a healthy relationship can be." > > Del replies: > Except that she shows ONLY the BOY's side! Not a word about how the > GIRL feels. She makes the success of the relationship hang only on > what effect it has on the boy. And that is an extremely WRONG message > to give to impressionable teenage girls, IMO. > > --- > > Grindieloe wrote: > "I see not one reason for anyone to believe that there was any kind of > an abusive relationship." > > Del replies: > That's not what I said. > > What I did say is that we don't see enough interaction between Harry > and Ginny to *exclude* an abusive relationship. We know that Harry is > happy, period. Well, both abusers and victims are often happy at > first, so it doesn't mean anything. > >>> > . > > Grindieloe wrote: > "I am a Harry/Ginny supporter. You are not. The End." > > Del replies: > How many times will I have to say it? I AM a H/G supporter, I ALWAYS > was a H/G supporter. But that doesn't mean that I am going to accept > this fake and cheap romance as The Real Deal. Just because I was > bought to the idea long before HBP came out doesn't mean that JKR can > screw it up like that. A snip of JKR's interview from Mugglenet. I think it shows that JKR has her priorities in line when it comes to writing the romance. I still say she was heavily edited, however, that is the beauty of good writing, our own truth emerges when we use our imaginations. Melissa: MA: What does it do to you to see a character that you love, for people to express sheer hate - ES: Or vice versa. JKR: It amuses me. It honestly amuses me. People have been waxing lyrical [in letters] about Draco Malfoy, and I think that's the only time when it stopped amusing me and started almost worrying me. I'm trying to clearly distinguish between Tom Felton, who is a good looking young boy, and Draco, who, whatever he looks like, is not a nice man. It's a romantic, but unhealthy, and unfortunately all too common delusion of ? delusion, there you go ? of girls, and you [nods to Melissa] will know this, that they are going to change someone. And that persists through many women's lives, till their death bed, and it is uncomfortable and unhealthy and it actually worried me a little bit, to see young girls swearing undying devotion to this really imperfect character, because there must be an element in there, that "I'd be the one who [changes him]." I mean, I understand the psychology of it, but it is pretty unhealthy. So, a couple of times I have written back, possibly quite sharply, saying [Laughter], "You want to rethink your priorities here." From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 11:59:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:59:45 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136052 Del wrote: Do you want to know what *I* see? I see a relationship that is deemed good by how it makes *the boy* feel. I see a relationship in which the girl is obviously devoted to the boy, but *not once* do we see the boy being devoted to the girl. I see a relationship in which the boy calls the shots and the girl meekly accepts his decisions. vmonte: Hmmm. Well, Dumbledore was just killed. The Order has lost an important leader. The WW community (and muggles) are in danger of being wiped out. The dementors are breeding. There will be no happily ever after for Ginny and Harry if someone doesn't get rid of Voldemort. Ginny understands this because unlike all the other girls in the story, Tom Riddle took control over her for a whole year. She knows what he is capable of. That said, I don't think that JKR is going to make Ginny sit and wait for Harry during book 7. Ginny wouldn't need to be a "powerful witch" if she was basically going to wait around for Harry to fetch her after he kills Voldemort. She is, according to JKR, "Harry's equal." Ginny has a very forceful personality. She is tough because she grew up with a house full of boys but because she is a girl she knows how to handle them. PoA "Fine! shouted Mrs Weasley. Fine! Ginny - BED! Ginny did not go quietly. They could hear her raging and storming at her mother all the way up the stairs, and when she reached the hall Mrs Black's ear-splitting shrieks were added to the din. Lupin hurried off to the portrait to restore calm. It was only after he had returned, closing the kitchen door behind him and taking his seat at the table again, that Sirius spoke." vmonte: And unlike Harry who was embarassed at being caught in the train by Cho with Luna and Neville, we hear Ginny standing up for Neville, and understanding (while enjoying) Luna's quirkiness. Ginny knows Luna, even though she is not a Gryffindor. And Ginny gets Luna. It takes Harry and Ron another year to begin relating to Luna in this way. 'I'm nobody,' said Neville hurriedly. 'No you're not,' said Ginny sharply. 'Neville Longbottom - Luna Lovegood. Luna's in my year, but in Ravenclaw.' Del: I see a girl who is the Perfect Girl for the boy : she loves what he loves - Quidditch, for example - , she knows exactly when to talk or when to shut up, she knows when to act and when to do nothing, and so on. I do NOT see a boy adjusting to a girl who is not The Perfect Girl For Him. I see a girl who hero-worships the boy. vmonte: Is there something wrong for falling with a girl that likes what you like? Ginny is good at Quidditch, she likes it. Also, is there something wrong with being pretty? Pretty girls can be nice too. And Ginny never keeps her mouth shut when she feels that Harry is wrong. OOTP: 'Yeah?' growled Harry, his hands deep in his pockets as he watched the snow now falling thickly outside. 'All been talking about me, have you? Well, I'm getting used to it.' 'We wanted to talk to you, Harry,' said Ginny, 'but as you've been hiding ever since we got back -' 'I didn't want anyone to talk to me,' said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled. 'Well, that was a bit stupid of you,' said Ginny angrily, 'seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels.' Harry remained quite still as the impact of these words hit him. Then he wheeled round. 'I forgot,' he said. 'Lucky you,' said Ginny coolly. 'I'm sorry,' Harry said, and he meant it. 'So so, do you think I'm being possessed, then?' vmonte: No one was able to handle Harry's temper except Ginny (and the twins) who flat out put Harry in his place every time. Del: For all those reasons and more, I see an extremely DANGEROUS depiction of what a perfect romantic relationship looks like: 1. A girl must make her boy happy. 2. No reciprocation is necessary. The girl takes her pleasure from making the boy happy, and from being with him. 3. A girl must let her boy take the major decisions for the couple. She must not discuss his decisions. vmonte: Again, I restate that Ginny will not remain sitting by the fire at school waiting for her hero to claim her. She will fight with him. Vivian From ebren at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 11:13:18 2005 From: ebren at hotmail.com (James) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:13:18 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136053 bboyminn: > >First, all time travel will create a paradox, even the best thought > > > out methods; there is simply no escape from that. However, let's not > > > lose perspective regarding the nature and degree of paradox in PoA; Archaeological James: Sorry, I don't see this. Time travel can create paradoxes, but I see no reason why it should. To be consistent, nothing can be done in the past that prevents the reason for travelling back in time existing (or the time travellers for that matter) - but outside this, there is nothing you cannot do. Or I may be misremembering my philosophy of science. Time travel can raise some very interesting questions, but I do not see it as inherently paradoxical. > smilingator: > Anyway, I'm going to assume (I know, it's a bad thing to do) that both > of you believe that TTH!/TTHr! did not change anything by going into > the past. If that's true, then where is the paradox created? I guess I > just keep looking to find out why others are so upset by JKR's > addition of this element into her septology... I am delighted that she > did it and I thought she did a pretty good job of it, except for > Hermione's warning of seeing your past self (which, as Steve explained > in an earlier post, could have just been her exaggerating or > McGonagall trying to scare Hr into being careful). Achaeoligical James: Agree completely, I think she pulled it off really well. I also like the [implied] idea that this has been going on with Hogwarts students for ages. All those people with 12+ OWLs and the mention of the "ministry stock of time-turners" being destroyed. Wonderful aside > smilingator: Thanks in advance > for any input everyone. Achaeoligical James: Thanking you for your thanks and eagerly anticipating reasons why I am wrong (of which there will be legions). From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 12:46:38 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:46:38 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136054 Rather than adressing things point by point, which we already know won't convince Del ;) anyway... I just want to say this: Harry, as we all know, is the hero of these books. Harry is instructed by Dumbledore enough time that one can argue readers are instructed that it is our CHOICES that matter. If you or anyone CHOOSES to interpret that Harry is abusive or controlling of Ginny, it seems nothing anyone can say can stop that. It is YOUR CHOICE that makes the difference. It saddens me that someone would have choose such a jaded interpretation of the book and think that JK Rowling is shirking her responsibilities and giving her (female) readers a bad role model, etc. I think there are some things that the author intends readers to not sure which choice to make... as in Who is R.A.B. or Is Snape Evil or Good or Somewhere In Between? But, she has also met with incredulity the fact that people make choices she never intends ... i.e. Harry/ Hermione or Luna/Neville or Sirius/Lupin as "ships". I can only imagine that if she were to know that someone so fervently believes that the relationship between Harry and Ginny is abusive and a poor example especially for her adolescent girl audience (including her own adolescent daughter).. she might wonder if they were reading the same book, and perhaps hope that person just makes the choice to not read the books if they choose to see the hero as an abuser. Certainly Harry can have flaws, but being an abuser is far too extreme for Rowling, who clearly cares about her characters, to ever write. It is our CHOICES that make the difference, and I choose to see the relationship as good for all the reasons I've previously stated and to see that the way Rowling wrote it was in part due to what I am sure she knows is her responsibility to her fans. It is my choice as an educator with extensive training in Children's and Adolescent Literature,and a keen interest in Rowling and the how and why she writes... to believe that we saw only a brief glimpse of the POSITIVE effect of their HEALTHY relationship, and that I am confident that there is more GOOD to come of it. And now it is my CHOICE not to address this further, and hope that people will consider the author's Point of View when coming to their own conclusions about Harry/Ginny if they in fact think it harmful. Because, ultimately, it was HER choice. Marianne S. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 12:49:28 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802124929.1738.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136055 --- vmonte wrote: > Del wrote: > > Do you want to know what *I* see? > > I see a relationship that is deemed good by how it > makes *the boy* > feel. Forgive me, but that's because *the boy* is the main character. Everything is deemed good or bad by how it affects Harry. After all in general how much support and the like does he supply Hermione and Ron with in contrast to how much support they supply him with? Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mkemp at aandr.com.au Tue Aug 2 13:31:22 2005 From: mkemp at aandr.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:31:22 -0000 Subject: Yet Another Horcrux Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136056 Voldy gave the Riddle Diary to Mr Malfoy, who was more careless with it than he should have been... but, did Voldy give *other* Death Eaters parts of his soul too? RAB perhaps? Was RAB given the locket to place in the mysterious liquid in the cave, but instead placed the non-horcrux necklace there instead?? I lean this way because I dont think that if Dumbledore couldnt get the locket out of the basin without draining the liquid, anyone else could either. What I am saying is I think that the switch was made before the locket ever got to the basin, because I dont think RAB would have been able to remove the horcrux locket once in the basin - unless he/she drank the liquid, which they obviously didnt as the liquid was still there. Anyway... this leads me to ask if ALL the horcruxes were not given to faithful DeathEaters to care for them (or at least hide them where Voldy had requested). ================================ And, another musing on a totally different subject - my wife suggested that as Harry was released from Dumbledore's spell once DD died, maybe the Longbottoms will recover once Belletrix Lestrange snuffs it - and maybe Young Mr Longbottom is just the one to do it. I am not convinced as I think their brains are more addled than still under Her spell, but it is a nice thought. Cheers Pickle Jimmy From nelliot at ozemail.com.au Tue Aug 2 12:43:42 2005 From: nelliot at ozemail.com.au (njelliot2003) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:43:42 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > B.t.w., am I the only one who founds that *hor*-crux sounds slightly > indecent? Nicholas responds: Couldn't agree more - slightly indecent with overtones of blasphemy because of the juxtaposition of "hor"/whore and "crux"/cross (from Latin) which I take to mean crucifix. The word gives me the creeps! njelliot2003 who much prefers names like Hermy-own-ninny and Dunderbore From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Tue Aug 2 13:58:44 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:58:44 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136058 >"Serena Moonsilver": > >> Dumbledore says that Voldemort uses things that are significant to >him >> or trophies. Well, he has a trophy in the school--his award for > > special services. >... > > Voldemort would get a kick out of, having one hidden right under >> Dumbledore's nose. > >Geoff: >Like many topics surfacing in the absolute flood of messages after HBP >arrived, this one has been touched on before. > >Back in message 134623, the question of the trophy was brought up - the >thread being similarly named "Horcrux Possibilty" and I found the >relevant quote and posted it in message 134651. > >The interesting thought this message brought back to me today is that >there is also mention of a /medal/ in the trophy room. So there are two >possible ocations for a Horcrux if Tom Riddle decided to leave one at >Hogwarts. Laura: Actually, the medal has already been brought up, too: 133953. But I still think it might be a good idea. As Serena implies, hide it in plain sight. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From ebren at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 13:32:39 2005 From: ebren at hotmail.com (James) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:32:39 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136059 > severelysigune previously +1: > > > Although he had not originally agreed to it, he has magically > pledged himself to kill Albus Dumbledore. Dear dear, he is in deep ? > you know. < < > > zgirnius: > > This is one point I see differently. I do not believe that at this > point Snape knows *what* he has committed himslef to. Like, you , I > saw Snape's actions as being influenced/motivated by Cissy and > Bella's good cop/bad cop routine, btu I did not think that was *all* > there was to the scene. My suspicion is that Snape did not know what > the mission was, and a major reason Snape worked to gain Cissy's > trust was to learn this secret. He pretended he did know as part of a > ploy to worm some details out which would allow him to figure it out. > (The language used by both Cissy and Bella to describe this task > would get any spy interested.) > > Sigune again: > The only quabble I have with the idea that Snape didn't actually know > what the mission comprised is that the Vow would put him in an even > more extremely awkward position then. I mean, is there any elegant > way of finding out what he has committed to? And whom must he ask? > Draco? Voldemort? It will look weird and he will have to confess that > he initially only pretended to know what he's doing. Archaeological James But this fits with him not knowing. The scene with Draco in the toilets shows EverSoHuman!Snape desperately trying to find out what the mission is. Snape, knowing the only way he will convincingly find out what the mission is from Cissy and Bella (to tell SoonToBeDoomed!Dumbledore one assumes) is to say he knew and get them to talk about it. It seemed a ploy to me on the first read-through. Unfortunately the Unbreakable Vow gets in the way first (and was possibly put there as OhSoSuspicuios!Bella doesn't believe Snape knows and thinks he will back down). I read Snape's reluctance at the third cause as part of his understandable trepidaiton at volunteeing for something he doesn't know. Draco - being the arrogant, scared, and desperate-to-prove-himself little squit that he is - reads Snape's attempts to find out as wanting to steal his glory .... for the whole mission, not finding out how to get people in. > Sigune once more[carrying directly on from the last quote]: >...actions would make Voldemort frown: suddenly Snape carries out a task > he wasn't supposed to know about in the first place? Archaeological James I am inclined to have less faith in the idea that Cissy and Bella are good-cop bad-copping, due to the conversations (I can't cite as am at work and far from my canon) en route to Snape's hovel. I think Bella doesn't trust him (hence the Vow) and Cissy is scared for her son and only sees one way out. I genuinely believe that Voldemort knows nothing about their visit to Snape, and Snape knows nothing about the mission. Would Voldemort tell more people than neccessary who spend time with Dumbledore? LV cannot know that Snape is as skilled an Occulemens as he is, and would fear Dumbledore finding out. He also may well have placed protection on Draco to stop good old Albus Legilimensing his way into Draco's mind (I doubt Draco could hide his emotions that well on his own from Snape, he seems far less calculating and in control - witness the crying to Myrtle scene - than Snape ever was). With this (albeit not that small) objection, I would also like to praise Sigune's wonderful post. This sort of thing is what I come to HPFGUs for. From monalila662 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 14:37:45 2005 From: monalila662 at earthlink.net (lisa graves) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:45 -0000 Subject: Aragog Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136060 Excuse me if this has been covered already (some of you can be rather harsh! lol) But does anyone have a theory on the significance of Aragog's death? Am I reading to much into it? One other question--- just who IS guarding Azkaban these days? any thoughts? From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Aug 2 14:41:01 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:41:01 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136061 --- hickengruendler wrote: >>> in this case the sacrifice makes sense, because >>> otherwise Snape would have died as well (see the >>> Unbreakable Vow). Eggplant replied: >> But it's clear that Dumbledore did not know about >> that Unbreakable vow: >> Draco said " He [Snape] hasn't been doing your orders, >> he promised my mother_"[;] Dumbledore replied "Of course >> that is what he would tell you Draco, but_" Hickengruendler rejoined: > "But" can a mean a lot in this scene. > It could mean: "But he didn't promise her anything" in which > case your interpretation is correct. > It could also mean: "Of course that is what he would tell > you. But he was doing my orders, and already told me about > the promise he made your mother". Alternately, as I pointed out in an earlier post, Dumbledore might simply be indulging in some fast and loose play with the facts in an effort -- an ultimately successful one, as we see -- to dissuade Draco from passing the point of no return in his flirtation with the dark side. Dumbledore certainly *knew* about the Unbreakable Vow, whether or not he *believed* it, because Harry had told him even if Snape had not. -- Matt From 12newmoons at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 14:17:42 2005 From: 12newmoons at gmail.com (kneazlecat54) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:17:42 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136062 Signue makes 2 excellent points I'd like to comment on. > Sigune wrote: > As for Narcissa, I have tried to show that the charm she works on > Snape is not that of sex, really, but the fact that she appeals to > his vanity and works on his weaknesses. Snape is a half-blood who > seems to have consistently sought the company of pure-bloods, a > commoner who likes to think of himself as a Prince, a wizard who > doesn't receive the recognition he craves. Narcissa touches upon > all that. and... > Sigune again: > I must be missing something here, but I really can't see what > Snape stands to gain by Dumbledore's death. Voldemort's death, that > I can understand. But by killing Dumbledore, Snape has lost *all*: > his mentor, his protector, his safehouse, his job, his income - you > name it. Cut in his own flesh, he has. He wouldn't have done it if > he felt he had another choice. Sigune gets to the essence of Snape, I think-his pride is the core of him. From the minute Harry walks into his classroom, SS is intent on showing him that Snape is the boss, Snape is the powerful one. Even though it should be beyond argument that an 11 year old child who has been raised by Muggles isn't competition to him, Snape constantly challenges Harry just to humiliate him. Anyone who sucks up to him gets on his good side, and no Gryffindor is willing to do that. The way Snape keeps old grudges alive for himself is another example of his egomania-if he feels that someone's gotten the better of him, he can't let go of it. He's still trying to get even with James, and his rage at not being able to get revenge on a dead man leads him to abuse Harry. The shot Snape takes at Tonks is another example-it's just gratuitously mean, and for what? I think of Snape as a double agent who's been caught in his own trap. I don't believe that he's particularly loyal to either side. He just likes the power of being able to manipulate people who are ostensibly more powerful than he is-another enactment of his egomania. He makes me think of someone out of John LeCarre or Graham Greene, who has played the game so long that he's forgotten why he started doing it in the first place and now keeps it up because he has nothing to live for outside the game. I don't think he particularly wants LV to win. In fact, if either side wins, he loses, because his goal is to play one side off against the other for his own aggrandizement. So yes, now he's tilted the balance way too far to one side. It'll be interesting to see if he can restore some equilibrium, since he's now a murderer and caster of an Unforgiveable Curse who's on the run. Somewhere, Sirius is laughing. Laura (Kneazlecat54) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 14:55:43 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:55:43 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136063 Marianne wrote: "If you or anyone CHOOSES to interpret that Harry is abusive or controlling of Ginny, it seems nothing anyone can say can stop that. It is YOUR CHOICE that makes the difference. " Del replies: Er... I clearly remember writing that I do NOT believe that. However, I am pointing out that because we don't have any canon contradicting it, it could theoretically be possible. In fact, I would BET that there are young people who DID interpret "Harry and Ginny had a particularly happy hour" as "they had wild sex for an hour", and "Harry was happier than he'd been in a long time" as "he was getting lots of sex". And they would interpret it that way because it is THEIR understanding of what happiness in a couple is. Marianne wrote: "But, she has also met with incredulity the fact that people make choices she never intends ... i.e. Harry/Hermione or Luna/Neville or Sirius/Lupin as "ships"." Del replies: People believe in those things because they are *possible*. The clues *are* there. The readers are not blank minds JKR writes on. Every reader comes with a past, with a good deal of personal experience. So every reader will interpret every clue in a different way, depending on who they are, and what their make-up is. Marianne wrote: "I can only imagine that if she were to know that someone so fervently believes that the relationship between Harry and Ginny is abusive and a poor example especially for her adolescent girl audience (including her own adolescent daughter).. she might wonder if they were reading the same book, and perhaps hope that person just makes the choice to not read the books if they choose to see the hero as an abuser. " Del replies: You don't understand the point I am trying to make. By TELLING us that Harry and Ginny are having a happy relationship but not SHOWING us what a happy relationship looks like, JKR leaves the door open to *genuine* MISinterpretations. Take for example a 14-year-old girl who's the kind of girl who believes that once she finds her One True Love, everything will be all right and he and she will be happy forever. Then she falls in love, and everything is not right. Her boyfriend is jealous and controlling, the relationship is emotionally abusive, she keeps giving and giving and giving, but she feels he doesn't give anything back. Then she reads HBP, and she sees that Ginny *makes* Harry happy, but that nothing is said about Ginny receiving anything. She sees Harry making the decisions for them both. In short, she sees Harry do what her own bf is doing. And what diagnostic does JKR give of the H/G romance? It's the perfect match, they are soooo happy! What conclusions is she going to reach? I'm 31, I know LOTS more about love and happiness than any 14-year-old. I can guess that Harry gives as much as he receives, and that even if they are happy, they still have their little disputes once in a while. But because it is not written, it CAN be interpreted as not being there at all. All those over-romantic girls CAN get the message that the Perfect Match exist, that the Perfect Bliss is attainable, and that there should never be any misunderstanding or disagreement between two people who truly love each other. THIS is why I think that JKR made a big mistake by simply TELLING her readers that Harry and Ginny are happy, but not SHOWING what a happy relationship looks like. In particular, she failed to show that a happy relationship needs WORK, and that's it takes TWO to make a relationship work, two crucial points that way too many young people don't know about. So I maintain that by making Harry and Ginny's romance looks so easy, effortless, and perfect, JKR sent a very wrong message to her young readers. Unless, of course, you posit that Harry and Ginny's relationship is simply a teen romance, that is not meant to last, and that is definitely NOT The Real Deal. Del From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 15:36:48 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:36:48 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136064 "severelysigune" wrote: > It is to impress her [Bellatrix] that Snape > agrees to the Vow. I think Snape made the vow because it cost him nothing to do so (he was planning to help Draco anyway vow or no vow) and it alleviated Bellatrix's suspicions; she was after all a powerful witch who was close to Voldemort, if she had been constantly whispering in Voldemort's ear about how disloyal Snape was that couldn't be good for him. > If Snape's aim was to kill Dumbledore, > why should he first give Draco a chance? Why not? Snape knew that killing Dumbledore would be dangerous so if Draco managed to pull it off before he could all the better. And besides, that's the way Voldemort wanted it. > How about if he had said, "Terribly > sorry Headmaster, but that thing > with your hand - impossible to heal. > It was an honour to have worked > with you. Rest in peace." But he doesn't. We don't know what he said, we know almost none of the circumstances when Dumbledore returned to Hogwarts with his injury or exactly what Snape did or did not do, so I cannot comment. > I really can't see what Snape stands > to gain by Dumbledore's death. If Snape wants to rule the wizard world, and I think he does, then he must first kill the two wizards who are more powerful than he is. One down one to go. This also explains why Snape saved Harry's life in book 1, he knew he was the only one who could kill Voldemort because he heard the ENTIRE prophecy. I always thought it was a little too convenient that the eavesdropper heard the part about the boy who would grow up to kill Voldemort but was thrown out an instant before it became clear that attacking the infant now would be disastrous for the Dark Lord. Eggplant From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 15:41:45 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:41:45 -0000 Subject: what exactly ARE dementors?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > There are many, many descriptions of how dementors make you feel > (ie:cold, like you will never be happy again) and what they do(give > you the "kiss", suck out your soul. BUT, what ARE dementors? Are they > wizard made?(to guard Azkaban) or are they like hags, trolls and > goblins? Seperate creatures unto themselves? I have read each book > except the last one four or five times, and I don't remember them ever > saying how dementors came about. > > Snapeo'phile I do not have an answer to your question about how dementors came into being, but I want to add a thought about dementors to your thread if you don't mind. I remember reading in an interview that the dementors were JKR's representation of depression. That is quite an accurate view, IMO. I find this ironic: Followers of LV = Death Eaters Nature/Funtion of Dementors = Life Eaters Wonder if that is significan or simply ironic? Julie From lealess at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 15:51:31 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:51:31 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazlecat54" <12newmoons at g...> wrote: > > I think of Snape as a double agent who's been caught in his own > trap. I don't believe that he's particularly loyal to either side. > He just likes the power of being able to manipulate people who are > ostensibly more powerful than he is-another enactment of his > egomania. He makes me think of someone out of John LeCarre or > Graham Greene, who has played the game so long that he's forgotten > why he started doing it in the first place and now keeps it up > because he has nothing to live for outside the game. > lealess: I think of Snape as someone like Tom Ripley in the Patricia Highsmith novels. He is capable of murder, but also kindness. He has made decisions in the past from which he cannot escape. Why did he make those decisions? It may have been envy of others (Malfoys) or a sense of injustice (Marauders), or a desire to be appreciated (Dark Arts-loving, shunned kid at school), or perhaps he just fell into the Death Eaters like Ripley fell into his life, almost accidentally. Because of his decisions, and like most people, sometimes he controls his life, and sometimes, others control it. I think his petty cruelty to students and others is a reaction to this powerlessness, and does not go further, to the actual desire to exert control over them. If that was his intent, he comes nowhere close to achieving it in his classroom. To the extent he does control others, it seems to consist entirely of blocking them from knowing his thoughts through Occlumency. We do not see him proactively controlling others, however, forcing them to do his will. I do not see him wanting to be the next Dark Lord; think of all the dunderheads he would have to manage then. He would probably prefer to be alone, living on his own terms. I would like to see him scowling into the sunset at the end of the series, continuing his morally ambiguous life, seeking his own path through the mess. I know that will not happen, however, because while these are complex books in terms of plot, they are not complex in terms of morality. In fact, I have to agree with posters of long ago that the morality is {depressingly to me} deterministic. Snape will have to pay, one way or another. The books are about Harry, after all, the hero of Love and Light and Good, or something. lealess From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Aug 2 16:01:11 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:01:11 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Why_Harry_Had_to_Watch_(was_"Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan")?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136067 --- Kathy wrote: >> If the potion had killed [Dumbledore], it would have >> been a truly pointless death, which is why he wanted >> Snape brought to him immediately. If Draco killed him, >> it would also have done nothing to imptove the situation >> for the Order. Only by having Snape kill him could >> [Dumbledore] place an Order member right beside Voldemort. --- "kiricat4001" (Marianne) replied: > I suppose, but wouldn't he have thought it through to the > point that he tells some senior Order member that this > might happen? Now the only evidence the Order has is DD's > death by Snape's AK . . . . So, Snape, if he is indeed > still on the side of the angels, is cut off from his > fellow angels because they think he's a murdering turncoat. > Snape will have to do some fancy footwork to make anyone in > the Order believe him. Snape is no angel, but not everyone working against Voldemort is an angel, just as not every bad person is a Death Eater. Clearly if Snape is still working against Voldemort he is a sleeper. Like his erstwhile roommate ("Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt . . . . [A]nd I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." -- PA, ch. 22). Still, for those who adopt the view that Snape and Dumbledore were acting pursuant to some plan (whether concrete or free-flowing), the resulting deception of Harry is probably the most difficult aspect of the scene to explain. Why was Harry forced to watch the man he trusted least kill the man he trusted most, believing that it was murder, if indeed it was not? There are other aspects of the scene -- and those that follow -- that are more difficult for Turncoat!Snape advocates to explain. Dumbledore's pleading, for instance: it is well-established that he would not plead with anyone to save his life, so what exactly is he doing at the end there with Snape. The best attempt at an explanation I have heard is that he was trying to ask Snape not to "scar" Draco (and/or Harry) by murdering Dumbledore in front of him, but that strikes me as a bit weak. And Snape's reaction to Harry's jab about cowardice is so much easier to understand if you believe that Snape is being forced to hide something from Harry that would prove his bravery. But let me return to the more difficult task of trying to explain why Dumbledore would have allowed/required Harry to observe the scene. I think there are a number of possible explanations, and while surely none will satisfy everybody, it may be that each will appeal to a few-body's. 1) No other alternative: things were just falling apart; best DD could do was ensure that Harry didn't interrupt the drama. 2) To cement Snape's position with Voldemort and permit him to fulfill his purpose as a sleeper, Dumbledore needed a witness to tell the world that Snape had killed him; he didn't know who else would end up on the tower, but could ensure that Harry was there and able to bear witness. 3) Having Harry see Snape deliver the coup de grace was regrettable, but necessary in order for Harry also to see Draco's change of heart. Dumbledore thought it so important for Harry to see the latter that it was worth poisoning him against Snape. 4) Along the lines of (2), but having Harry deliver the news ensures that Snape will be blamed and lays the best groundwork for Snape's "deep cover." Harry is sure to observe the situation and report on it in the manner least favorable to Snape. 5) As Dumbledore has pointed out, Harry has a choice whether to pursue Voldemort or to give up, flee, go into hiding, etc. Watching Dumbledore die, betrayed, at the hands of a Death Eater is the last step in molding Harry into a zealot who cannot accept failure in the quest to defeat Voldemort. I readily admit that none of these explanations is perfectly satisfactory to me. All of them rely (as must any explanation of these events) on the assumption that Harry's understanding of Snape's mission is not critical to that mission, but none of them provide any explanation as to why not. Still, each has some degree of credibility. (1) has to struggle in addition with Dumbledore's historic [double meaning intended] ability to anticipate how a situation will play out and manipulate it so that everyone is in a perfect position to do what s/he must. Possibly Dumbledore should be permitted a bit of slippage given his weakened state. If we really want to indulge the "weakened Dumbledore" theory, we could even take a step further back and posit that Dumbledore did not intend for Harry to observe the entire scene; it just played out that way. (See for example hickengruendler's views in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135897). These explanations are difficult because they are simply inconsistent with our prior observations of Dumbledore's tactical genius. (2) is more in keeping with Dumbledore's usual mastery of the situation, although as has been pointed out it assumes that Snape's mission will not require anyone on the "right" side to know the true arrangement. This explanation also casts Dumbledore as a utilitarian -- willing to use Harry to his ends despite the negative effect on Harry's psyche -- to a degree that may be uncomfortable to those who view Dumbledore as a moral perfectionist. (3) is a more narrow explanation. Possibly it does the best job of offering a sympathetic reason for what Harry is forced to go through. It ought to be more appealing to those who believe that a change of heart by Draco will play a major role in book 7. (4) is more cynical than those before it, but in keeping with some views of Dumbledore as less of a kindly old schoolteacher and more of a crafty war general (albeit on the side of the right and the good). This would be coupled with the view (already expressed by some) that if Harry knew the truth, Voldemort might read his mind, which would blow Snape's cover. I agree with Marianne that the latter argument loses some force given the highly sensitive task that has now been delegated to Harry (destroying the horcruxes). But although that task is vital, keeping it secret from Voldemort may not be as critical as it is to keep Snape's mission secret. If others are correct in theorizing that Voldemort has "maxed out" his horcruxes at seven, due to a fascination with that number, the main risk in his discovering the mission is that he may fortify the remaining horcruxes, or set traps for Harry involving them. Those steps (which VM might take as a precaution in any event) only make it more important for Harry to have some "inside" assistance, whether he knows about it or not. (5) abandons any pretense of nobility in Dumbledore's treatment of Harry, and is more in line with a "MAGIC DISHWASHER" view of Dumbledore: a utilitarian puppetmaster, concerned fundamentally with the broad social consequences of the struggle against Voldemort, rather than with what befalls any individual, even Harry. See, for example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79390 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/81010 -- Matt From kcrystalwolf at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 15:06:28 2005 From: kcrystalwolf at hotmail.com (kcrystalwolf) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:06:28 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136068 I can kind of understand why someone would say that the Harry/Ginny romance is from Harry's side only, but to me that was simply about the fact that Harry is the character being followed. Ginny has always been a minor player, so we are not as privy to her emotions and reactions. Also, I think Harry has not really been "drawn" by JKR as growing up in how he thinks. He is still mainly "thinking" like a more innocent young boy. He is obsessed with solving mysteries and playing Quiddich, but not only peripherally interested in girls. I think this may be the "downfall" in taking a character from childhood to adulthood. How do you make him a believable adult, but still not offend or turn off your younger readers? Don't get me wrong, I love the books, and I think JKR is doing a very good job at walking a very difficult tight rope on this one. kcrystalwolf From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 15:54:07 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:54:07 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry Drink Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136069 Jmoses: I was just wondering if I was the only one who questions why Harry drank the FF potion. He has been tricked by people in disquise before, and I thought he would be a little more careful. Beside the fact that Slughorn had a whole cauldron of Polyjuice Potion, he was a Slithrin and they aren't exactly straight arrows. Another thought I had was, How did Malfoy get the polyjuice potion. I would think that a potion as potentially dangerous as that would be under closer watch. Please someone respond. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 16:32:42 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802163242.23730.qmail@web32701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136070 delwynmarch wrote: However, I am pointing out that because we don't have any canon contradicting it, it could theoretically be possible. Lynn: Okay, so using your reasoning, Harry could theoretically be a thief. After all, except for socks for Dobby, I don't believe we've ever seen him actually buy a gift for someone and yet, we know he's given gifts. Since canon doesn't state that Harry does buy his gifts and is not stealing them and it doesn't SHOW Harry doing the shopping, it could be interpreted that Harry STEALS the items he gives as gifts. Therefore, JKR is remiss in not showing us how Harry obtains the gifts he gives because young people could interpret the fact that he doesn't go into a store and buy the gift as Harry stealing to obtain the gifts. That would also make Hermione and Ron thieves as well since we don't see them buying all the gifts they give either. It doesn't matter that Harry has money as we know that people with money steal as well. The problem with the argument that canon doesn't rule out this or that interpretation is that we'd need at least a set of books the size of the series to rule out every possible interpretation someone could come up with and then an addendum for all the others new people reading might have. To expect JKR to write so that every base is covered to everyone's satisfaction is beyond the realm of anyone's ability. Authors cannot and should not be expected to address every possible sensibility. After all, what one person sees as a negative characteristic or action another person can see as positive. Parents have a responsilibity in all this as well. They can choose to read what their children are reading and to discuss it so that the wrong interpretation isn't being put on what's written and to be sure that their own negative experiences don't end up colouring how their children interpret what they are reading. The usual disclaimer, JMO test'; "> --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 16:56:44 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:56:44 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms released from curse (Re: Yet Another Horcrux Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136071 Pickle Jimmy: > And, another musing on a totally different subject - my wife > suggested that as Harry was released from Dumbledore's spell once DD > died, maybe the Longbottoms will recover once Belletrix Lestrange > snuffs it - and maybe Young Mr Longbottom is just the one to do it. > I am not convinced as I think their brains are more addled than > still under Her spell, but it is a nice thought. Jen: I don't think it would work the same way, since the Longbottoms actually experienced magical damage from the Crucio and Harry was undamaged by the full-body bind. But you do have me wondering if there's some significance for the Longbottoms if Bella dies. (I obviously think her days are numbered ). First of all, there's been speculation in the past they are actually enslaved by memory charms rather than damage from the Cruico. In that case your suggestion might work. Another thought: Say Bella gives evidence about the night in question that leads the healers to understand exactly what happened and what can be done. That seems a little out-of-character, given her slavish devotion to LV. The only way this would happen is if she's conned into giving the info to someone she believes to be a DE. My personal feeling is that Alice at least will recover before the end of the story. I think she will be the Order member we haven't 'offcially' met according to JKR's interview around the time of the HBP release. Jen From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 17:01:39 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:01:39 -0000 Subject: Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > But does anyone have a theory on the significance of Aragog's death? > Am I reading to much into it? > > One other question--- just who IS guarding Azkaban these days? any > thoughts? I touched on the first point some dozens of messages ago, with my question really being about what was going to happen with the venom that Slughorn extracted from dead Aragog. My guess is that the death was put in simply to arrange for that extraction, with the venom used in some important way in Book 7. What that way will be is unclear, of course, but if I recall correctly, a couple of respondents suggested that it might be used as some sort of counter to basilisk venom (the basilisk was/is the acromantulas' worst enemy). Another thought is that it will be a critical ingredient for some potion or other. Your other question has also been raised, but the only real suggestion I recall has been that some Aurors have been put in charge of the place for now. Ersatz Harry From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Tue Aug 2 17:05:38 2005 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:05:38 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry Drink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmoses22002" wrote: > Jmoses: > I was just wondering if I was the only one who questions why Harry > drank the FF potion. He has been tricked by people in disquise > before, and I thought he would be a little more careful. Beside the > fact that Slughorn had a whole cauldron of Polyjuice Potion, he was a > Slithrin and they aren't exactly straight arrows. Another thought I > had was, How did Malfoy get the polyjuice potion. I would think that > a potion as potentially dangerous as that would be under closer watch. > Please someone respond. Mario's response: 1) Harry drank the FF potion because Hermione identified it as being FF. She is so good that it gave Harry confidence about its authenticity. Also, Slughorn said at the beginning of their course that he would give it to who ever made the best potion during the class. He had no way of knowing that Harry would be the best 2) Draco probably made the Polyjuice potion on hiw own, just as Hermione, Harry and Ron did in COS. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 2 17:19:29 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:19:29 -0000 Subject: Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" > wrote: > > > But does anyone have a theory on the significance of Aragog's death? > > Am I reading to much into it? > > > > One other question--- just who IS guarding Azkaban these days? any > > thoughts? > > I touched on the first point some dozens of messages ago, with my > question really being about what was going to happen with the venom > that Slughorn extracted from dead Aragog. My guess is that the death > was put in simply to arrange for that extraction, with the venom used > in some important way in Book 7. What that way will be is unclear, of > course, but if I recall correctly, a couple of respondents suggested > that it might be used as some sort of counter to basilisk venom (the > basilisk was/is the acromantulas' worst enemy). Another thought is > that it will be a critical ingredient for some potion or other. > > Your other question has also been raised, but the only real suggestion > I recall has been that some Aurors have been put in charge of the > place for now. > > Ersatz Harry Hickengruendler: Another reason might be, that now, that Aragog is dead, there is noone anymore to controll his spawn. If I were living in Hogwarts, I would be really uneasy about the idea that a group of very large and out-of-control spiders is living in the forest near the castle. Maybe the spiders will be another danger in book 7. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 17:27:51 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:27:51 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136075 "delwynmarch" wrote: > I would BET that there are young people > who DID interpret "Harry and Ginny had > a particularly happy hour" as "they > had wild sex for an hour", and "Harry > was happier than he'd been in a long > time" as "he was getting lots of sex" I agree, and it's interesting that as Harry's girlfriend people took it as a given that Ginny knew if he had a tattoo on his naked chest or not. Yes, there is a more than just snogging going on at Hogwarts, in fact the book is positively drenched in sex and I can prove it with examples: There was no need to stick the wand in that hard,' he said gruffly, clambering to his feet. 'It hurt.' (p 64) A hole opened in the middle of all the tentacle like branches; Hermione plunged her arm bravely into this hole, which closed like a trap around her elbow; Harry and Ron tugged and wrenched at the vines, forcing the hole to open again... (p 281) Lupin burst out laughing. 'Sometimes you remind me a lot of James. He called it my 'furry little problem'... (p 335) 'I dunno,' said Harry. 'Maybe it's better when you do it yourself, I didn't enjoy it much when Dumbledore took me along for the ride.' (p 355) 'You see?' Dumbledore said quietly, holding his wand a little higher. Harry saw a fissure in the cliff into which dark water was swirling. 'You will not object to getting a little wet?' 'No,' said Harry. 'Then take off your Invisibility Cloak... and let us take the plunge.' (p556) :>) Eggplant From ColleyF at missouri.edu Tue Aug 2 16:23:35 2005 From: ColleyF at missouri.edu (Frances Marie) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:23:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP Harry Abusive? Ginny's love for Harry a bad influence for impressionable teens? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136076 Del replies: Er... I clearly remember writing that I do NOT believe that. However, I am pointing out that because we don't have any canon contradicting it, it could theoretically be possible. Fran: Wow, that's TRUE. And with conjectures like that, it's THEORETICALLY possible that Sirius was a pedophile?because there is no canon that says otherwise?and after all, he was awful fond of Harry. Heck, maybe that's why Harry is so abusive. Del: In fact, I would BET that there are young people who DID interpret "Harry and Ginny had a particularly happy hour" as "they had wild sex for an hour", and "Harry was happier than he'd been in a long time" as "he was getting lots of sex". And they would interpret it that way because it is THEIR understanding of what happiness in a couple is. Fran: Yes, again. I *immediately* believed they were having wild hot monkey sex...and being the romantic teenage girl I was, that's also exactly what I would have thought then as well. Of course, it's my belief any teenager engaged in that much sex right now probably isn't doing anything as mundane as reading, let alone reading CHILDREN'S books. Del replies: You don't understand the point I am trying to make. By TELLING us that Harry and Ginny are having a happy relationship but not SHOWING us what a happy relationship looks like, JKR leaves the door open to *genuine* MISinterpretations. Fran: Oh, I see. What you want JKR to do is drop the actual plot line of the novels and develop the ROMANTIC aspect only? And of course, change the POV of the novels from Harry to ALL the characters?because we've never had anyone's POV except Harry's. If you want a ROMANTIC aspect novel only with multiple points of view, I can suggest a number of my favorite Romance Authors. They do it all the time. But then again, the write for an entirely different genre than Ms. Rowling. Del: Take for example a 14-year-old girl who's the kind of girl who believes that once she finds her One True Love, everything will be all right and he and she will be happy forever. Then she falls in love, and everything is not right. Her boyfriend is jealous and controlling, the relationship is emotionally abusive, she keeps giving and giving and giving, but she feels he doesn't give anything back. Then she reads HBP, and she sees that Ginny *makes* Harry happy, but that nothing is said about Ginny receiving anything. She sees Harry making the decisions for them both. In short, she sees Harry do what her own bf is doing. And what diagnostic does JKR give of the H/G romance? It's the perfect match, they are soooo happy! Fran: Does this theoretical teenager live in a cave with only Harry Potter novels? Del: I'm 31, I know LOTS more about love and happiness than any 14-year-old. I can guess that Harry gives as much as he receives, and that even if they are happy, they still have their little disputes once in a while. Fran: I'm relieved to hear you're old enough to know better. So am I. Del: But because it is not written, it CAN be interpreted as not being there at all. All those over-romantic girls CAN get the message that the Perfect Match exist, that the Perfect Bliss is attainable, and that there should never be any misunderstanding or disagreement between two people who truly love each other. THIS is why I think that JKR made a big mistake by simply TELLING her readers that Harry and Ginny are happy, but not SHOWING what a happy relationship looks like. In particular, she failed to show that a happy relationship needs WORK, and that's it takes TWO to make a relationship work, two crucial points that way too many young people don't know about. Fran: It sounds like you think teenagers get all their romantic advice from JKR?and as much as I adore JKR?I believe that's giving the poor woman too much credit. I remember much about being a 14 year old girl, and I also purloined my information from romance novels, teen magazines, my friends' warped views of love, and various movies and television shows. Are you on a rampage for all media or just JKR's? I'm also getting tired of adults whining about the influence of media warping their children. You want to do something about it: TALK TO YOUR CHILDREN. Listen to see if they are truly loaded with these irrational views, and go from there. You're not giving children credit to know what is fact and what is fiction?which is what separates you from JKR. She does. Fran. From ellydan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 17:40:33 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802174033.85624.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136077 Hmm I'm as unconvinced as Del actually. --- "Marianne S." wrote: > Rather than adressing things point by point, which > we already know won't convince Del ;) > anyway... I just want to say this: > >> If you or anyone CHOOSES to interpret that Harry is > abusive or controlling of Ginny, it > seems nothing anyone can say can stop that. It is > YOUR CHOICE that makes the difference. > It saddens me that someone would have choose such a > jaded interpretation of the book > and think that JK Rowling is shirking her > responsibilities and giving her (female) readers a > bad role model, etc. > I think we're getting off base here. Del and others are saying is not that the relationship is abusive but rather that the relationship is not written well. A good writer gives us more than foreshadowing of the relationship. I'll concede that there was foreshadowing. However, the relationship itself and how it is written is done poorly b/c we don't get to see it at all. I find it hard to like Ginny and the relationship when all we get is hearsay about her. If she is to be an important character not only to Harry but also to the readership, the author needs to take more time in creating her for us by showing us more concrete instances in how she behaves, talks, especially in her regards to her relationship with Harry. It doesn't take much more time to show a small portion of their conversations, either pre- or during their relationship. The relationship is unbelievable or below the radar on how much we care for it because we literally don't know Ginny at all. Everything we learn about her is hearsay from Hermione, abstractly described from Harry's perspective etc. It would only take that much more time to give us a few more scenes in which to know Ginny, to establish the relationship or the precursors to it as far as to why Harry cares for her so greatly. (i.e. some of those many times they were together in the summer.) If J.K. wants us to love Ginny as much as we even love Neville and Luna then we need more dimensions to care about. And obviously from her comments she does want us to care about Ginny as a powerful, clever, caring witch. As for now, as a reader I've seen as much of Ginny as one could experience life through binoculars. She is far off, hazy, indistinct and almost a rumor. > > And now it is my CHOICE not to address this further, > and hope that people will consider > the author's Point of View when coming to their own > conclusions about Harry/Ginny if they > in fact think it harmful. Because, ultimately, it > was HER choice. > And it was her choice not to delve more deeply into portraying Ginny's character. She chose a shortcut way of portraying her that plays upon my sympathies not a bit. So I also chose to consider my own POV, and in a fine reader-response tradition, my interpretation just found the relationship lacking in emotional reverbation. It was one of the great disappointments for me in the book. If love is to be so important for Harry, why are we so cheated in a glimpse into how greatly and why so greatly he cares for Ginny. This is really what is at issue here. Honestly, how can we know how healthy/unhealthy the relationship is when the relationship is given so little time in the book as is Ginny overall in portrayal. If you want to think about this way, think instead that I'm picketting for Ginny's rights to an honest to goodness chance to shine as something more than a cardboard cutout. The only way we would have been given the chance, would haven been to see Ginny rather than just be told what she is like. IMHO again Ellyddan ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From Tiassa at TiassaTech.com Tue Aug 2 16:13:46 2005 From: Tiassa at TiassaTech.com (dwltiassa) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:13:46 -0000 Subject: what exactly ARE dementors?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136078 Samantha wrote: > There are many, many descriptions of how dementors make you feel > (ie:cold, like you will never be happy again) and what they do(give > you the "kiss", suck out your soul. BUT, what ARE dementors? Are They are definitely "Separate creatures unto themselves", at the end of GoF Dumbledore mentions that allying with them may not have been the best of choices for the wizarding world, because Voldemort could (did!) corrupt them by promising them power. Any more than that I don't think that we've been given any information. dwltissa From elaine_munn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 15:54:17 2005 From: elaine_munn at yahoo.co.uk (elaine_munn) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:54:17 -0000 Subject: accidental horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136079 Ok this is totally off the wall but lets just say the voice we hear at godrix hollow you know "take Harry and run" was not James but Snape (as has been suggested here before, and would explain JKR cutting James from that movie scene) Well can you imagine the implications of Snape being the accidental horcux! Imagine LV turns up to kill the Potters with creating a horcrux in mind and possibly already having done so just needing a home for it. When the Ak rebounds off Harry it sends the horcrux flying only to find a home in Snape!!! Possibly without Snape even realising. Told you off the wall! One more thing I wondered what you thought about the dementors possibly playing a part in the destruction of the horcuxes, I know they are on LV's side at the moment but as we have seen in the past they have switched sides. Could one or all of them be convinced to help recover the pieces of soul of the most powerful and dark wizard for decades? Elaine From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Aug 2 18:00:33 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:00:33 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Betsy Hp: > > > > > And I agree with Magda's over all point. Why on earth would JKR > > give away the answer to her books? That's another reason I'm > > dismissive of her interviews (especially with regards to characters > > like Snape and Draco) as theory foundations. Because the final > > destiny for Draco and especially Snape is far too important for JKR > to tells us about in an interview. > > > > And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong or even > deliberately misleading? Draco IS an evil little traitor. That he > might have a failure of nerve isn't sympathetic or worthy of warm > feelings. He is guilty of two attempted murders and betrayal of > Hogwarts. Quite frankly, from a purely practical point of view, > everyone would have been better off if he had died from the > Sectumsempra curse (assuming that Snape isn't ESE and wouldn't have > killed Dumbledore anyway, which I don't think he is). > > Why would she reveal secrets in her interviews? That's a very good > question. I think the answer is that a lot of times she doesn't think > they're secrets. To wit the "anvil sized hints" she was dropping over > the shipping issue. Re: Attraction to Draco -- and to Snape. I have never quite understood the attraction (sexual or whatever) to the vicious characters in the book. I love rule breakers -- I believe that law and authority can be grounded in injustice and that they deserve to be flouted. One of the reasons that I love Order of the Phoenix is all that resistance to tyranny rule-breaking... the Dumbledore scene where he refuses to go quietly, Fred and George's exodus, the whole school rising up against Umbrage, etc. But like Harry, I was shocked by James' treatment of Snape as seen in the Pensieve (which we now know is reality, not someone's memory or perception). But I do not like cruelty and viciousness -- and that's why I just don't "get" people who just love Draco or Snape. They are both verbally abusive, and nasty. Snape loves humiliating children over whom he has power (not just Harry -- remember his comment to Hermione about her teeth, and his absolutely vile treatment of Neville Longbottom, going out of his way to humiliate him in front of his new Professor (Lupin)). Draco is deferential and submissive to those above him -- to his father, to Snape until the HBP (why don't YOU apply to be headmaster, Professor?)...but is horrible to those he sees as "below him." I hate bullies. So even if Snape does turn out to be on the side of righteousness, I could never be attracted to him, or like him, etc. Also, I have no trouble distinguishing Draco Malfoy from Tom Felton. I can absolutely see why someone might be attracted to or like Tom.... So what about Draco crying, being worried about the werewolf, not killing DD, etc.? Well, I THOUGHT JKR had said something about redemption.....one of the reasons I like the books is that there was an idea that characters could be COMPLEX....redemption is about CHANGE, moving from evil doing to doing the right thing...we hope that James AND Sirius (who lured Snape to perhaps his death or at least a bite from a werewolf)changed...We can see Draco as complex, perhaps, and perhaps in the last book we will see more change. So, he's crying in the bathroom, he doesn't think he can "do it" (murder), he's worried about his father and mother, he's unhappy that a murderous werewolf got into the castle where his friends are, but most importantly he doesn't kill Dumbledore when he has the chance to...Another clue to Draco might be that his mother truly loves him. His father may be a bully, but his mother takes the risk of going to Severus Snape and begs him to save Draco. If he is loved by his mother, and if he perhaps loves her..there may be hope for him. OR he may be a complex character who does some evil but stops short of other evil... When I first read the HBP, I really hoped that Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore was already dying, had asked Snape to kill him so that Snape would be positioned to save Harry from Voldemort. I have almost no hope after reading the interviews that JKR gave to Mugglenet and the Leaky Cauldron. I believed that Snape was a complex character who did wrong things, but was a true and faithful adherent of Albus Dumbledore's. Snape did save Harry's life in the Philosopher's Stone -- whether out of a debt to James or not -- doesn't really matter..he did it. I'm trying to figure out why I am so invested in Snape not being in Lord Voldemort's camp. Part of it is that I can't stand the fact that Snape being evil means that he made a fool of Albus Dumbledore for so many years, that Dumbledore is then portrayed as one of those foolish people who love and trust... (as Lord Voldemort would characterize him, Lord Voldemort who neither loves nor trusts, nor is loved or trusted...instead of calling him He Who Must Not Be Named we should call him He Who Does Not Love). Maybe it is that I'm so invested in the idea of redemption, and the idea that even someone who is nasty and evil can turn their back on evil and do something good at any point...? So, what evidence do we have that LV knew about the OoP...about its activities? (Snape tells Bellatrix and Narcissa that he has told LV about OoP). How well does Snape's explanations to LV stand up to scrutiny? I'd better go back and read the book again... Susan McGee, Northern California From twinkeles20002000 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 17:41:48 2005 From: twinkeles20002000 at yahoo.com (twinkeles20002000) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:41:48 -0000 Subject: Is Sirius really dead? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136081 I do not think that Sirius Black is dead. He however passed through the veil, and due to Harry, Hermione and Ron's good relationship with the dead will be able to pass through once more and get him out. Anyone with a comment or theory please reply. Twinkeles. From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Aug 2 18:20:08 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:20:08 -0000 Subject: Snape, Slughorn, Dumbledore, Harry's last year In-Reply-To: <1ec.3ffea5f2.301c8238@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136082 Okay, so WE know that there are seven books and that something must happen to resolve things in book seven, but does Dumbledore? (lol) Okay, so why DOES Dumbledore allow Snape to finally become the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher? He has rejected Snape's application all these years. JKR says that Dumbledore thinks it might be bad for him. Well, for one thing, he has hired Horace Slughorn. Slughorn can only teach potions. That leaves Snape out of a job. There is the DADA vacancy. Why must DD have Slughorn at Hogwarts? Because he desperately needs the real memory of LV and the horcruxes (has someone figured out the etymology/origin of that word horcrux yet?) and he has to have Slughorn at Hogwarts. Then Harry can work at getting the memory. But Dumbledore KNOWS that the position is cursed/jinxed...although I'd love to know the details of that curse/jinx....he knows that if Snape takes the position, he'll only be in it for one year. He ALSO knows that Harry will no longer be as safe from Lord Voldemort when Harry comes of age...he only has until his birthday..after that the old powerful magic that protects him while he lives with Petunia Dursley will not be in effect (right? someone correct me if I'm wrong). To digress for a minute, JKR has said that there's more to Petunia than meets the eye..what will be her role in the last book? So Dumbledore KNOWS that things are coming to a climax...I do believe that he is dead (JKR says somethiing to the effect that in this kind of story the old wise mentor has to die so that the young hero can go on alone....which I think implies that he will achieve his quest). My theory is also that he was dying, and knew he was dying...and that Harry would need help and protection... This does lend credence to the theory that Snape killed Dumbledore at Dumbledore's request so that Snape would be close to Lord Voldemort and be in a position to protect/help Harry. But what about the JKR culpable comment? Susan McGee If you want to join Harry Potter for Grownups Over 40, a listserve, please email me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 2 18:20:36 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:20:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not References: <1122927432.5399.69377.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c5978e$e27cb120$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 136083 houyhnhnm wrote: >I hope I don't get in trouble for going off topic, but I had to >respond to this. One reason I can't accept an ESE Snape has no basis >whatsoever in canon and that is the fact that I had a student once who >was *identical* to the description of the teenage Snape in OotP. >Skinny, round shouldered, hook-nosed, with long greasy black hair, he >didn't cause trouble in my class; he never did much of anything at >all, just slunked in and slunked back out every day. The other >students called him Rat Boy! OK, 'cept I didn't mean Snape! Rat Boy for me is Peter. Peter has an undischarged "life debt" to Harry which still has to be resolved. And he is the only one left who can tell Harry the lot. As one of the Marauders, he knew the full story about the Prank, the outcome of the Worst Memory, and any other interesting details about their final 2 years at Hogwarts (for example, how James and Lily came together and any related incidents...). As Traitor and Secret Keeper, he knows about Voldemort at Godric's Hollow (and we are led to believe that he was there, to retrieve Voldemort's wand). Maybe he also knows about Snape's reasons for leaving the DEs (there's lots of canon about Snape and James always hating each other, right from the outset. That only leaves one Potter for Snape to get upset about Voldemort killing.) Who knows, maybe Snape tried to persuade Voldemort to go after the Longbottoms rather than the Potters. And finally, as Snape's minder, he was without doubt listening to the Unbreakable Vow and everything that went before it. If Snape tries to tell Harry anything, the barrier will slam down straight away. Harry's not interested in hearing it from him. But Peter's a different story. But JKR alone knows all hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From genesis_wave at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 18:13:46 2005 From: genesis_wave at yahoo.com (genesis_wave) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:13:46 -0000 Subject: 2 questions that might clear a lot up and a 3rd for verification. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136084 1. Would it be possible for two strong legitimance practitioners, such as Dumbledore and Snape, to communicate with each other without having to use words? 2. Is it possible to cast a nonverbal spell while speaking the incantation of another spell? 3. Are we in general agreement that RAB is Regulus Black until JKR says otherwise? JC. From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 2 18:32:55 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:32:55 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136085 >Mari Wrote: The ones I can think of I am setting out below (I know these would have been brought up before). I summarised some of this in post number 134540. 1) Saving Harry's life in PS >>vmonte: If you recall Snape did not know that Quirrell was working for Voldemort during SS/PS. Voldemort kept Snape in the dark. Page 28, HBP, U.S. edition: "I think you wanted to know why I stood between the Dark Lord and the Sorcerer's Stone. That is easily answered. He did not know whether he could trust me. He thought, like you, that I had turned from faithful Death Eater to Dumbledore's stooge...As it was, I saw only greedy and unworthy Quirrell attempting to steal the stone and, I admit, I did all I could to thwart him." Remember Snape had a cushy and safe job at Hogwarts while the other DEs were stuck in Azkaban. Page 27 "I had a comfortable job that I preferred to a stint in Azkaban." houyhnhnm: These are somewhat circular arguments. You have to assume that Snape really is a Death Eater telling Bellatrix the truth in order to prove that he really is a Death Eater. If he's lying to her then we don't know whether he made the Quirrel/Voldemort connection or not. The following passage from PS/SS is suggestive, though ambiguous. "It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrel's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain shot across shot across the scar on Harry's forehead." *** >Mari: 2) Choosing to go after the trio to the shrieking shack, to protect them from someone he believed was in league with Voldemort, in PoA. >>vmonte: Well, this is a matter of interpretation. I see a teacher that is more concerned with exacting revenge and getting accolades, than a teacher who is worried about his students. houyhnhnm: Yes, it is a matter of interpretation. My interpretation is that Snape's motives are always mixed. He is still trying to prove he should have been Head Boy as much as he is trying to protect the school or its students, but there is little evidence in the text to prove or disprove this theory. Certainly, he shows no hesitation in going after the dangerous lunatic who *he* believes betrayed the Potters to Voldemort. >Mari: 3) Trying to convince Fudge in GoF that Voldemort is back, when Voldemort didn't want anyone to know this. >>vmonte: Moody had already threatened to tell dumbledore that Snape had it in for Harry (I don't think that Snape knew that Moody was Crouch Jr.). Snape probably felt that he had to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore. houyhnhnm: I don't even see a specious connection between these two ocurrences. Snape's showing fudge the dark mark is one of the strongest pieces of evidence for Loyal Snape (I would not call him good). It was unnecessary and against Vodemort's interest for him to do so. >Mari: 4) Alerting the order to what was going on in the Department of Mysteries. >>vmonte: He took his sweet time didn't he. Funny how he never shows up to anything. Where was he during the fight? Maybe he was afraid of blowing his DE cover you say? He's the Potions Master no? He's got all kinds of potions locked in his room doesn't he? And with all the polyjuice that seems to be floating around Hogwarts you would think that Snape would have some to spare for when he needs to go somewhere in disguise. But I guess not. houyhnhnm: I admit that the timing of the events at the ministry is ambiguous. There is just enough time for the DEs to have obtained the prophecy before the members of the order arrive, had Harry and the DAs not been so intrepid. On the other hand, if Snape really is a Death Eater knowing how important the prophecy is to Voldemort, it is hard to to imagine that he would risk the failure of the mission. He sees six teenagers go into the forbidden forest without brooms, without the ability to apparate. It is quite a leap to deduce that they could somehow make it hundreds of miles to the Ministry of Magic. Snape could have waited much longer to alert the order without bringing suspicion upon himself. If he really is a Death Eater, why didn't he? It seems to me that the evidence is way too ambiguous to make a purely evil Snape plausible. Lately, I have had the sneaking suspicion that JKR is never going to resolve this issue. I think Snape will sacrifice himself for Harry in some way in book 7, but we will be left, at the end of the book, not really knowing what was in Snapes mind all along. Myself, I think it would be purely evil for a writer to create a purely evil character who lives in a house filled with books. : -) From julie.martineau at oricom.ca Tue Aug 2 18:09:35 2005 From: julie.martineau at oricom.ca (joiedevivre1971) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:09:35 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136086 Kneazle24 wrote: > > I believe Snape is evil and that Dumbledore always knew. Dumbledore say of Hagrid: "I would trust Hagrid with my life." With Snape, Dumbledore always "simply" says: "I trust him." > > Dumbledore always uses words like a scalpel. I think Dumbledore meant that he can always trust Snape to act like Snape. (snip) > Isn't the situation just Dumbledorian? Dumbledore always believed in > the power of sacrifice, love, and redemption. Snape NEVER bought into any of that. Snape has always been about power and control. Joie now: First post here ever, people. Cheers! Kneazle, I have to admit I find your reasoning about Snape very convincing. I only have a couple of other observations to add, things I have noticed throughout the stories which have bugged me all along: 1) During the Occlumency "fiasco", I kept getting the impression that Snape was really pushing Harry to get one single point; he even shouts it out, something along the lines of "if I can do this to you, imagine what it will be like when LV gives it a go!" (Does it show I don't have the book with me??) Harry spends those sessions hating Snape, but all the time he had it right there in front of him, that his hate and anger were all getting in the way of *true* Defence against Legilimency, because he could not *focus*. Harry spends almost the entire OotP narrative in a haze of burning adolescent anger. My take on this is that Snape was trying like mad to shake him out of it, using the old "making-it-worse" trick; only it didn't work... Was that, also, part of Dumbledore's idea? What do you guys think? 2) The whole confrontation on the school grounds after Snape supposedly AKs DD fits with my previous observation. Snape makes it *look* like he's goading Harry, but he is in fact showing him where he needs to shore up his skills in order to take on a DE, not to mention LV himself. The first thing Harry'll need to tackle, IMHO, is emotional control!! Think about it: DD was pretty good at this... Did he channel Snape's and Harry's emotions to make certain both Harry and Snape would carry on their set courses even after he had passed on to the "Next Great Adventure"? Dumbledore did *not* plead for his life. That, at least, I am sure of. Thank you for your thoughts, everyone, and please forgive me if I repeat something here. I am not quite up to date! Salvete, Julie From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 18:41:09 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:41:09 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: <20050802124929.1738.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > Everything is deemed good or bad by how it affects > Harry. After all in general how much support and the > like does he supply Hermione and Ron with in contrast > to how much support they supply him with? > > Rebecca Sandra writes: I agree, although this is something I'd never really thought about before. Harry is one of life's takers, who just happens to be the boy who lived. I can't think of many examples where Harry has given H&R, Luna & Neville or even the vile Ginny, anything close to the kind of support and genuine friendship he's always had from them. As long as H is doing his homework, R is offering a home, and G is there to make him feel good, what does he have to do? I think if I was at Hogwarts (oh dear, getting too imaginative here...) I wouldn't see too many reasons to hang around with him, as a person. As far as reading into the HP and G situation with how they pass the time, I think sometimes people see too much in JKR's words! Still, it takes all sorts to make the world keep turning. Sandra From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 18:43:58 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:43:58 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry Drink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136088 > Mario's response: > > 1) Harry drank the FF potion because Hermione identified it as being > FF. She is so good that it gave Harry confidence about its > authenticity. Also, Slughorn said at the beginning of their course that > he would give it to who ever made the best potion during the class. He > had no way of knowing that Harry would be the best Jmoses I believe Hermione identified what was in the cauldron as FF. What Slughorn gave to Harry was a vile that he pulled out of his robes. For all Harry knew what he was given could have been a cleverly disquised poison. Who is to say that Slughorn didn't have two viles in his robes, one of them being poison and the other being the FF potion. Jmoses. From samwisep at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 18:49:09 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:49:09 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136089 Hi Potterphiles! If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? Snapeophile From Nanagose at aol.com Tue Aug 2 18:53:37 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:53:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136090 >phoenixgod2000: > Now imagine that person as an arrogant >teenager and is it a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that >he would go after the werewolf, seeking to either kill or capture >it? Imagine the personal glory, imagine the name he would make for >himself, imagine the response he would get from the other students. Christina: Would Snape really have gotten any glory from killing Lupin? I think trying to capture him is pretty impossible, considering the fact that he already is captured in the shack. Would Snape have gotten rewarded for killing a werewolf that was already held in control and not out hurting anybody? I mean, I know the atmosphere in the WW is not friendly to werewolves, but I doubt they'd be awarding Snape for killing one. After all, for all of the things we hear about the prejudice against werewolves, there isn't much canon to show that the WW does a whole lot (or, as much as they could) to curb the danger they represent. For example, they could require by law that werewolves go to a special place to transform (and make sure they all get the wolfsbane potion). We know from the fact that Lupin pretty much does what he pleases that there is no such law in effect. They also don't round up the werewolves and kill them all, or hunt them for sport. Outside any legal considerations, I'd still imagine Dumbledore would be quite livid with Snape for murdering one of his students after working so hard to protect him (Lupin). Dumbledore doesn't seem to like it when other people challenge his decision making skills. I honestly believe Snape has better self-preservation skills than that. > Alla: > >I disagree. Please help me out, if you think that no ambiguity is >present whatsoever. >...... >NO, I don't think we know everything about that night, not even >close. Christina: If you look back at my post, you'll see that I never said we knew everything about that night. I agreed with the assertion that the canon does not provide all the answers, but that what we *already know* is *not* ambiguous. That is, we don't know all of the events, but we have no reason to doubt what is in the canon already. And while the questions that you raised are sound, they don't do anything to show that Lupin is lying or wrong. They are just questions that have not yet been answered, and I suspect we'll never get the answers to most of them. JKR has said that she doesn't anticipate Book 7 being longer than OotP, which means that Harry has got a heck of a lot to accomplish in roughly 800 pages. He's got to find several horcruxes, destroy them, and have a final battle with Voldemort, not to mention the tons of other unanswered questions that still linger. I was convinced that we would see the wrapping up of the Marauders/Snape feud storyline in HBP (why they hate each other so much, all of the events surrounding the prank, etc), but unfortunately that was not the case. JKR doesn't have the physical page-space to address all of the issues surrounding the prank, so we have to think about the importance of the prank as a whole. What is its importance to the actual storyline? I personally think that the importance of the prank lies in the possible life debt that was created between James and Snape (I'm sure JKR has commented on this possibility, but I just can't dig it up...does anyone know if she has?). Maybe it got transferred to Harry when James died? Maybe it is relevant to the events surrounding James's and Lily's death? Either way, I do think that the answers JKR promised are coming surrounding the pranks, but I doubt we'll ever see the complete logistics of it through a pensieve or Harry questioning Lupin (particularly considering Harry's lack of curiosity about his parents' lives, which is something that has always bothered me) or any other means. Christina From samwisep at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 18:54:29 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:54:29 -0000 Subject: Just what ARE dementors anyway? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136091 ("I do not have an answer to your question about how dementors came into being, but I want to add a thought about dementors to your thread if you don't mind. I remember reading in an interview that the dementors were JKR's representation of depression. That is quite an accurate view, IMO. I find this ironic: Followers of LV = Death Eaters Nature/Funtion of Dementors = Life Eaters Wonder if that is significan or simply ironic?)" Julie Julie- Your post really interested me. Where did you see the interview in which she said that? I always like reading interviews "from the source" PS How do you think the dementors are breeding? Do you think they are attacking people and sucking out thier happiness to be able to breed? Snapeophile From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 18:57:57 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:57:57 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to > know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? > > Snapeophile **Marcela now: Click on the link to see a "preview", :D (It's fanart from Teawithvoldie) http://www.livejournal.com/users/teawithvoldy/175721.html#cutid1 Marcela From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 18:59:26 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:59:26 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to > know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? > > Snapeophile Sandra wrote: I would ask how on earth she plucked up the nerve to draw one book out into seven. The last three have really had me despairing, and now to find that book 7 is going to be the kind of story that could have been in book 1, I cringe. Harry and the Quest For The Remaining Horcruxes could have replaced Harry And The Philosopher's Stone. Seven years, a lot of fluff, a few entertaining stories, and a square one finale. Sandra From hambtty at triad.rr.com Tue Aug 2 19:00:17 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:00:17 -0000 Subject: Order Member we haven't officially met In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136094 My first thought when I heard JKR talk about an Order member we have not officially met was - Charlie Weasley. 1st mention: GOF (page 52, American). Harry sees him only briefly in the Burrow and he wasn't "officially introduced". Harry only figured it was Charlie because he had blisters and calluses on his hand. Before anyone could say anything Mr. Weasley "popped" back from the Dursley's and started in on the twins about what they had done to Dudley. Charlie didn't go with the family to the World Cup via port key - he, Bill and Percy went by themselves. 2nd mention: GOF (page 327, American) Harry recognized Charlie in the Dark Forest when he was wrangling the dragons before the 1st Task. He didn't talk to Charlie because he was hiding; Charlie never knew Harry was there. So "officially" we have not been introduced but we do know from OOTP that Charlie is an order member who is trying to recruit members from other countries. 12 uses for Dragon blood anyone? Recruits from other European countries? Lots to offer in Book 7. My two cents worth anyway, BG From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 19:01:41 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:01:41 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marianne S." wrote: > Other H/G "shippers" and I have already posted evidence from HBP that show our > satisfaction with Harry and Ginny's relationship. Many have said that they prefer not to > have every detail of their private time together, and actions such as the way Ginny's look > shows complete understanding and acceptance, the way she can communicate with Harry > by touch, and the intimacy that they share right in front of Ron (leaning on Harry's leg, > kissing him good night), all show a good deal of maturity and age appropriate behavior for > a relationship that has futur3e potential. True. Those do show maturity and age appropriate behavior. But those are not conversations, dates, meetings, or interludes which tell me how they got to that level of age appropiate behavior and maturity. We got a lot of details on the gloriously written trainwreck that was H/C and almost nothing on the supposedly better relationship of H/G. Hell, the only date we saw Harry go on in the entire book was with Luna (best female character in the story, imo), and we got more Harry scenes alone with Hermione than we did with Harry and his redheaded gf and yet we are supposed to believe that they connected on a meaningful level? By what twisted logic does that hero of the story spending almost no onscreen time with his LI count as a good love plot? We got: Harry pinning away over Ginny(way to show a strong guy JKR)...to...Harry and Ginny kissing over quiddich and agreeing to go on a walk together...to...several weeks later where they are already an established couple. We waited half the damn book for Harry to make his move on Ginny and she cheats us out of the scene where he finally puts his moves on her? I hate Ginny. I hate the ship Harry/Ginny. But that scene, that walk that we were cheated out of could have been amazing. It could have sold me on their ship completely. It was bad writing that we didn't get to see it. It was cheating and it was more than slightly offensive to me. I don't want to buy books where I have to competely fill in the blanks with my own version of character development. I would be even madder if it was a ship that I actually liked being shortchanged that way. I don't understand how any H/G fan could have been in the least bit satisfied by that overly vague interpretation of what they would be like together. Make the book ten pages longer next time and include a few scenes that make me actually like the girl you're pairing the hero of the story off with. > That aside, we also have to not forget the age (and gender) appropriateness for Harry > Potter's READERS. I think this is a fallacious arguement. The average age of a harry potter fan is older than your two examples. Neither kid you are talking about was even born when the first book showed up. someone who read SS when he/she was ten would be a college graduate by now. So I think its fair to hold her to a more mature standard of book than one that would also cater to kids who still think girls have cooties. Secondly, I don't care about what kids think about the story. I'm reading the story for my own personal enjoyment. I'm holding the story to my standards, not children's standards. Thirdly, if I did care, I certainly wouldn't want Ginny to be a role model for any young girl in my charge. Ginny was pretty much a flat out bullying *$&%& in the book. Girl who was pulling those stunts anywhere near me as a teacher would get detention for a month. Yeah, I know, I'm mean guy :) > I wouldn't want JKR to write a romance novel, or even a book that forces people to accept > only one interpretation of the time that Harry and Ginny spent together. Certainly a 12 > year old is going to have a different idea of what happened than myself, and I'm sure > when both (and most) kids are older, they'll be able to read into it what they want. It was > unnecessary to show every kiss, every touch, every cuddle, every private word for the > very facts that it would potentially turn OFF readers I don't think any of the people here are complaining because HP isn't enough of a romance or that we aren't seeing them kiss enough. I think what a lot of people are complaining about is that they feel cheated out of seeing the key scenes that build their relationship. We miss the aftermath of the kiss and their walk around the lake. We miss them having talks where they sort out their issues. We see that they are a couple and miss everything that makes them one. And for the record, there should only be one interpretation of the time Harry and Ginny spent together. That's what I'm paying her for. We should know what happened with them according to canon. Leaving it open to interpretation is, to put it kindly, silly. By that logic the Voldemort Harry confrontation should be done really vaguely too, just so people can wonder if Harry lived or died. the > kind of healthy progression of attraction, denial, and then definite connection and obvious > intimacy Harry has with Ginny. So, let's allow JKR to satisfy the majority of her readers, > who are certainly younger than us, by giving them enough proof that Ginny makes Harry > happy But that is my problem. we know that Ginny makes Harry happy but we have no idea why. And we as the observer aren't really given a chance to connect with Ginny the way we have with other characters. We are told in a scenes that they've been together for a while and like to spend time around each other but we never see any of the events that help to create the bond they supposedly share with each other by the end. Why does Ginny understand Harry? What do they talk about? Have they ever talked about Voldemort or the DoM? Did Ginny write to molly about them dating? did Bill and Fleur know? Do they ever fight? What do they do every day? A few scenes with them talking or practicing flying together would have gone a long way to selling me on their twu luv. But we didn't get any of those scenes. All we got was they've been dating for a few weeks and like each other. just about anyone would fail a creative writing class pulling that crap. I don't want HP to become a romance story. I don't think it needs to be. But I take romantic subplots seriously in whatever stories I read or tv shows I watch because I cannot stand watching/reading stories where the main character--someone I inevitablly like--is with a character I hate. It pulls me out of the story. However a writer chooses to deal with Romance, it would be handled deftly and in a way that shows why the characters like each other. the fact they do is irrelavent. the important part is the *why*. It's an important part of character building in a story. phoenixgod2000 From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 19:01:54 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:01:54 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136096 > Snapeophile: --- > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to > know the answer to that. > Eww! Would you really? Personally, I can live without that particular juicy titbit, thank you very much! a_svirn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 19:06:10 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:06:10 -0000 Subject: Would Snape want to kill; Remus? Was: Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136097 > >phoenixgod2000: > > Now imagine that person as an arrogant > >teenager and is it a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that > >he would go after the werewolf, seeking to either kill or capture > >it? Imagine the personal glory, imagine the name he would make for > >himself, imagine the response he would get from the other students. > > Christina: > > Would Snape really have gotten any glory from killing Lupin? Alla: I believe he would, but I wanted to clarify something. I believe that Snape going after Remus is just one of the possibilities of what went out that night. I think it could be argued just as likely as any other, BUT my main argument that we don't know SO many things that we cannot judge what exactly happened, especially who wanted to kill whom ( not saying that you cannot do so, I am saying that I won't :-)) Christina: Would Snape have gotten rewarded > for killing a werewolf that was already held in control and not out > hurting anybody? I mean, I know the atmosphere in the WW is not > friendly to werewolves, but I doubt they'd be awarding Snape for > killing one. After all, for all of the things we hear about the > prejudice against werewolves, there isn't much canon to show that the > WW does a whole lot (or, as much as they could) to curb the danger > they represent. Alla: Hmmm... Lupin would be not allowed to go to Hogwarts but for Dumbledore. It seems to me that WW IS very afraid of werewolves and Hogwarts was definitely one of the places poor Remus would not see. I definitely think that Snape would be rewarded for " saving children from danger" or something like that. Besides, there was NO wolsfbane yet when Lupin was in school. Christina: > Outside any legal considerations, I'd still imagine Dumbledore would > be quite livid with Snape for murdering one of his students after > working so hard to protect him (Lupin). Dumbledore doesn't seem to > like it when other people challenge his decision making skills. I > honestly believe Snape has better self-preservation skills than that. Alla: Maybe he was livid with Snape? Maybe that is why Dumbledore managed to shut Snape up after the Prank? And about Snape self-preservation skills... I am not so sure. Remember "his only hope is that Dumbledore won't interfere"? Just speculating here of course, Alla. From samwisep at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 19:18:18 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:18:18 -0000 Subject: Confusion with Harry and Ginny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136098 Hi Potterphiles! When I read: "Harry's thoughts strayed to Ginny.They had not met up with her,thought Harry, because she and Dean were cosily closeted in Madam Puddifoot's teashop, that haunt of happy couples. Scowling, he bowed his head and trudged on." I actually thought the reason Harry was scowling was because he was thinking of the disasterous time he had with Cho at M Puddifoots! I was totally clueless that there might be another reason. Was I the only in the dark? Snapeo'phile From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Aug 2 19:38:09 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:38:09 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: <20050802174033.85624.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136099 Okay, number 1. I do not think JKR implies that Ginny and Harry are off having wild sex. We do not see or hear any of the children having "wild sex". We see them kissing (snogging). I would assume they were kissing and talking and talking and kissing...they had to re-hash their relationship, when they first realized they liked each other, etc.? #2. JKR gives tons of hints that Ginny and Harry will become involved throughout the Half-Blood Prince. It starts out with Harry realizing with a jolt that having spent the summer with Ginny, he's about to lose her company at school. That upsets him. #3. We get to know Ginny QUITE well, and we do see her in action. We see her as a Quidditch player. We see her hex Malfoy. We see her in the scene where the Inquisitorial Squad and Umbrage has captured them all. We see her determination to go to the MoM. Wasn't it Ginny who named the D.A. Dumbledore's Army (because that's the Ministry's worst fear. She has a great sense of humor -- look at her imitation of Umbridge in the Hog's Head and her comment about the Norwegian Ridgeback being much more macho. We also see her complexity -- she snarls at her friend Hermione for giving Harry a hard time. She loses her temper quite easily -- and she is not nice to Ron about snogging. Not nice at all..... She's NOT one dimensional. #4. I do not see ANY indication that Harry is either controlling or abusive (was this really alleged?). This is probably the one thing I do know something about having spent the last 25 years working in the field of domestic violence. #5. I DO think JKR is giving us a glimpse of a healthy relationship. Ginny has stopped putting Harry on the crush pedestal. They are friends. They trust and like each other. They've grown to know each other. Ginny was the one who confronted Harry in OoP when Harry believes he was possessed by Voldemort. She is the person who has the best clue about what Harry has gone through given her own experience. Harry has never been happier.... It's not as if he got involved with Romilda Vane? Susan McGee From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 19:50:13 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:50:13 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > Snapeophile: > > --- > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I > think I > > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love > to > > know the answer to that. > > > > > Eww! Would you really? Personally, I can live without that particular > juicy titbit, thank you very much! > > a_svirn Chys: I'd wanna know how DD was invisible without a cloak? And is Snape evil? hehehe. Chys From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 19:58:43 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:58:43 -0000 Subject: 2 questions that might clear a lot up and a 3rd for verification. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136101 JC wrote / asked: > 1. Would it be possible for two strong legitimance practitioners, > such as Dumbledore and Snape, to communicate with each other without > having to use words? > 2. Is it possible to cast a nonverbal spell while speaking the > incantation of another spell? > 3. Are we in general agreement that RAB is Regulus Black until JKR > says otherwise? > > JC. Marianne answers: 1) I think that 2 legilimens would be able to communicate without words. And if I see the path you're heading down... I think that they were communicating without words on the astrology tower, and that perhaps Snape was attempting to use occlumency against Dumbledore since the thought of (I imagine) "this is it.. now I have to kill him and even though that's what he wants it will change everything" was too horrible to ponder... and that's why the weakened Dumbledore who accepts Death as just part of the journey pleads with Severus... to kill him. 2) Yes, I think it is possible to cast a nonverbal spell while speaking an i ncantation of another. I think this for 2 reasons. a) Dumbledore's reaction which has been written about many times here already) to the (supposed) AK seems to be in stark and obvious contrast to any other AK killing we have seen. b) It is impossible, we have learned, to effectively use an "unforgiveable" curse for righteous reasons. They just won't work as intended. So... if Snape was really doing what Dumbledore had requested/ ordered... I don't think an AK would have worked. It seems to me by Dumbledore's reaction to the curse that it is more likely that he was hit with "impedimenta" or something similar that would cause the already weakened Dumbledore to fall to his death -- something that would have hopefully been instant and without suffering. Therefore, Dumbledore has a peaceful look on his face with his eyes closed, rather than a frightened look with his eyes open. 3) I honestly don't know of the general agreement on this board. However, it is the general agreement of my (offline) friends and myself that R.A.B. is Regulus. Those who didn't already think this way were duly swayed by me. ;) So, if it turns out to be the general feeling on the board, I won't be surprised. Marianne S From jmkearns at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 20:04:17 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:04:17 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136102 I've been lurking for the past couple of weeks, but lately I've been thinking a lot about Horcruxes and, having also read through all the old Horcrux posts, I think we have much still to learn and discuss about the topic. So I'm going to try to combine the thoughts I've read with a few of my own. Bboyminn Steve, I hope this provides some of the background you've been asking for. :) There are two parts to what I'm attempting: first is to determine what the groundrules are for Horcruxes, as I think clarifying those will help further discussion. Second is to answer the three fundamental questions about Voldemort's Horcruxes: What are they, where are they, and when did he make them? ----- My take on the groundrules for Horcruxes, in addition to those the text provides: 1) Horcruxes, whether created by spell or potion or whatever, can only be made deliberately. "Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his adantage: He would encase the torn portion... - there is a spell (Slughorn, HBP23)." It's not possible to inadvertently create a Horcrux, any more than it's possible to inadvertently AK someone. And the failed attempt to kill Harry couldn't have inadvertently created one, because nobody actually died in that encounter. 2) The object in question must be present at the time and place of a killing in order to be turned into a Horcrux, or possibly soon afterward. This is implied, I think, in the nature of the object, but also in Dumbledore's discussion of Voldemort using Nagini as a Horcrux: "He used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux (Dumbledore, HBP23)." In other words, Voldemort had to kill someone to create that last Horcrux - he couldn't fall back on one of his killings from years before. At some point in time after killing somebody, you pass a threshold beyond which a Horcrux is no longer an option. Perhaps you have to even plan it ahead of the murder. 3) There is a fundamental difference between the soul fragments contained in Horcruxes and the original soul: Horcruxes can be destroyed, but as long as they still exist, the original soul cannot be. This is the only way it makes sense - we /know/ Horcruxes can be destroyed, and we know that killing Voldemort himself must come last, and that he survived the AK. 4) You can't go on making Horcruxes forever. Slughorn is astonished at the idea of making even more than one, and Dumbledore says that terrible damage is done to the soul every time one is made. It's logical that at some point, you've got to stop. If you think any of these could/should be called into question (or others added), please do so! ----- Now, the three big questions: 1) What are the Horcruxes, and is Harry one of them? -One is the diary, now destroyed -Two is the ring, also destroyed -Three is the locket, which R.A.B. planned to destroy. Most people think that this is Regulus and that the locket was the one in Grimmauld Place, now held by Kreacher or Mundungus, but we don't know. -Four is almost certainly Hufflepuff's cup. -Five is a huge question mark, even to Dumbledore. He suspects it might be an unknown artifact of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's, but that's not a lot to go on. -Six is somewhat questionable, but Dumbledore is pretty sure it is Nagini. Numbers five and six have prompted some speculation, to say the least. -I do not think Harry is a Horcrux. Harry was only present at one of Voldemort's murders - Lily's - and considering Voldemort was planning to immediately kill Harry, making him a Horcrux when killing Lily would have been quite stupid. And as I said before, Harry couldn't have been Horcruxed (hee hee) on the rebounded curse, as it didn't kill anybody. Aside from this, when on earth would Voldemort have done it? Harry's never been around him within even years of his killing somebody. -The most believable theories I've seen on alternative objects for Horcruxes are the obvious artifacts at Hogwarts: one of Riddle's trophies, Gryffindor's sword, the sorting hat. I have two problems with these theories, though. First, when would Voldemort have killed someone while having any of these objects available? Second and more importantly, even the diary - which Dumbledore said Voldemort was reckless with - was far better protected than any of these. Thinking of the protections on the ring and the locket, I find it hard to believe that Riddle would have made something out in the open into a Horcrux. -Just to address them, I've also seen theories on the following objects being Horcruxes: Wormtail's hand, Droobles wrappers, the HBP potions book, the potion Dumbledore drank, Dumbledore himself, Fawkes, the prophecy, and the Golden Snitch. These are all quite farfetched though, I think, and really have none of the characteristics that define all of the other Horcruxes. -"Dumbledore's shrewd ideas usually turn out to be accurate (Lupin, OP5)." I don't know if that quote was written with this situation in mind, but I do agree with it. Dumbledore's ideas make far more sense to me than any of the alternatives I've heard thus far. So personally, I'm going to stick with them. 2) Whew. Next Question: Where are the Horcruxes located? -One, the diary, was in Lucius Malfoy's protection, though he didn't know what it was. -Two, the ring, was hidden in the ruins of the Gaunt house. -Three, the locket, was hidden in the cave, now is perhaps in Grimmauld or elsewhere (see above). In this case, I've heard many excellent suggestions from others regarding places important to Voldemort: -Somewhere in Hogwarts. I'm sure this led to the speculation about the trophies and such, but I think it's much more likely it would be hidden someplace like the Chamber of Secrets. Likelihood: Very high -The Riddle house. We already know it's important to him, and he did store one in his mother's house. Likelihood: Very high -The orphanage. Seems like a logical place, but harder to do. Likelihood: Medium -Borgin and Burke's. Also more difficult, and probably not as imporant to Riddle. Likelihood: Medium -A safe at Gringott's. Doesn't really fit the criteria we've seen so far. Likelihood: Low -Azkaban. Why? Likelihood: Very Low -That was all of the places I noticed - any other ideas? 3) Finally, When were the Horcruxes created, and who was killed in the process? The names I've heard most often in this sense are interestingly some of the least likely, logically speaking: Moaning Myrtle and the Riddles. Myrtle was killed by the basilisk, which I doubt would allow for the creation of a Horcrux. Also, the Riddle in the diary - presumably the only Horcrux item Riddle owned at that age - remembered things that happened after this incident (though there is a continuity problem in this, as Riddle at the age he appeared in CoS probably wouldn't yet have learned how to make Horcruxes). As for the Riddles, Tom was already wearing the ring when he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes - if he'd created one when he killed his father, he wouldn't have needed to ask. The only people Voldemort has certainly killed are: Lily, James, Frank Bryce, and Dorcas Meadowes. So it's certainly frivolous to make any new conjectures based on that. ----- I used dozens of old posts as references, but these are particularly worth reading: 133509, where Ragnarok discusses why Harry can't be a Horcrux 134031, where Derek gives an intriguing rationale for Voldemort making Harry a Horcrux, though I disagree with the timing 134334, where Morgan explains the importance of the 7 soul fragments 135019, where Hokus discusses the relationship between the original soul and the Horcruxes 135427, where Bboyminn Steve discusses Horcruxes and Harry's scar Thanks for reading, and for input! I'd like to refine this theory and round it out, with help. :) John K From imontero at iname.com Tue Aug 2 20:07:49 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:07:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: <20050802174033.85624.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136103 Ellyddan wrote: If you want to think about this way, think instead that I'm picketting for Ginny's rights to an honest to goodness chance to shine as something more than a cardboard cutout. The only way we would have been given the chance, would haven been to see Ginny rather than just be told what she is like. Luna: I agree with most of what you said, but I it is unfair to say that Jo didn't show Ginny or Ginny growing into Harry's equal. Jo did show some of Ginny's character. She did show us Ginny in COS defending Harry from Draco, even with her crush she already knew that Harry didn't enjoy all that publicity. We see them twice making eye contact and silently laugh at certain situations (POA, when Percy saw Penelope in the train station and OOP, when Hermione was trying to be nice with Luna). We see her standing by her compromise to go to the ball with Neville when she had the choice to dump Neville and go with Harry (the girl has moral fibre). Then we see her in OOTP being nice to Luna and Neville, not allowing Neville to think that he's a "nobody." We see her putting Harry in his place more than once in OOP (she can control and put an angry Harry in his place), we see her giving Harry hopes to talk to Sirius (allowing Harry to make his own choices), we see her in the DA, we see her being brave in the face of pain in the DOM (just like Harry does). We also see a lot of foreshadowing to H/G. I knew H/G was coming and was looking forward to it. I agree that romance is not THE central theme in the books. I think that Love in its purest (Agape) form is the power to vanquish Voldemort. I think that Jo is putting Ginny there to somehow help advance the plot in book 7 and to later provide Harry with what he has been craving for all his life: a family, his own family with his wife, who is his equal, and his kids. The problem is that we don't get to see enough of the relationship in itself and here is where I agree 100% with what you said. I knew Ginny was fitted for Harry, I knew they were going to fall for each other but I would have liked to see some of it developing. I liked what Jo showed us, but I wanted one more dialogue, just a tiny detail where we get to see Ginny's expression through Harry's eyes... This is why it feels a little bit incomplete. Luna From dlatchman at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 19:47:50 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:47:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: purpose of two-way communication mirror etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136104 Sandra wrote: > And that makes me wonder - if the spell exists for the Weasley > twins to make extendable ears for a little prying, it can't be too > difficult to perform. So how come the principle had never been > adapted by the wizarding powers-that-be to listen in on > suspected Death Eaters? I would imagine that just as we have many methods to prevent evesdropping e.g. Faraday cages, etc. the wizarding world have their own means to do the same. Just as making and maintaining a room that is supposed to be unbuggable takes some time and effort (and money) I expect that it will be the same for wizards and witches. Of course in matters of security, no security is 100%. If someone wants to get in and/or listen they will find a way. For all we know there might be wizarding companies that specialize in matters of security just as we have in our muggle world. David L. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 20:13:48 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:13:48 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "njelliot2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > B.t.w., am I the only one who founds that *hor*-crux sounds > slightly > > indecent? > > Nicholas responds: > Couldn't agree more - slightly indecent with overtones of blasphemy > because of the juxtaposition of "hor"/whore and "crux"/cross (from > Latin) which I take to mean crucifix. The word gives me the creeps! Geoff: I think it's the way you pronounce it!! Thinking about it, I've always pronounced it to rhyme with "abhor" - which could be a possible etymology of the prefix.... "Crux", in Latin, has the meaning of a common or garden cross. My Latin dictionary also gives translations as "torture, trouble, misery, destruction" which could all play a part in Voldemort's activities creating horcruces [to use the proper Latin plural :-)]. From rt11guru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 20:13:41 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order Member we haven't officially met In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802201341.62272.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136106 "B.G." wrote: > My first thought when I heard JKR talk about an Order member we have > not officially met was - Charlie Weasley. > My two cents worth anyway, BG Guru says: Got to be DD's brother. He's in the picture that Harry saw in OotP. Besides, we need an explanation for the goats: Who are they, why is he caring for them and what was the illegal spell that he was casting? Guru From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 20:17:18 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:17:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Sirius Really Dead? In-Reply-To: <1123013063.3356.52337.m8@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123013063.3356.52337.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd050802131738d286f7@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136107 Twinkeles writes: I do not think that Sirius Black is dead. He however passed through the veil, and due to Harry, Hermione and Ron's good relationship with the dead will be able to pass through once more and get him out. Anyone with a comment or theory please reply. =============== Lisa responds: That very question was put to JKR after OotP was released. She specifically said that the character was dead (I believe when asked, her exact words were "He's dead, Jim"). And at the end of OotP, Nearly Headless Nick explained to Harry why Sirius wouldn't be coming back as a ghost, and Dumbledore explained that "there is no potion to bring back the dead." Dead is dead, and Sirius is so. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From hambtty at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 20:34:08 2005 From: hambtty at yahoo.com (B.G.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:34:08 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136108 1) During the Occlumency "fiasco", I kept getting the impression that Snape was really pushing Harry to get one single point; he even shouts it out, something along the lines of "if I can do this to you, imagine what it will be like when LV gives it a go!" (Does it show I don't have the book with me??) Harry spends those sessions hating Snape, but all the time he had it right there in front of him, that his hate and anger were all getting in the way of *true* Defence against Legilimency, because he could not *focus*. Harry spends almost the entire OotP narrative in a haze of burning adolescent anger. My take on this is that Snape was trying like mad to shake him out of it, using the old "making-it-worse" trick; only it didn't work... Was that, also, part of Dumbledore's idea? What do you guys think? 2) The whole confrontation on the school grounds after Snape supposedly AKs DD fits with my previous observation. Snape makes it *look* like he's goading Harry, but he is in fact showing him where he needs to shore up his skills in order to take on a DE, not to mention LV himself. The first thing Harry'll need to tackle, IMHO, is emotional control!! Think about it: DD was pretty good at this... Did he channel Snape's and Harry's emotions to make certain both Harry and Snape would carry on their set courses even after he had passed on to the "Next Great Adventure"? Dumbledore did *not* plead for his life. That, at least, I am sure of. Snape's is out for Snape and it is best for Snape to help defeat LV. He is well aware that LV holds no one close nor trusts anyone and those who trust LV come to a sticky end eventually. Snape's style of teaching is deplorable - he thinks (I almost wrote feels - don't think Snape has much use for feelings) that expressing any feelings toward another is a sign of weakness. By controlling all emotions he feels strong when it's his greatest weakness. But Snape's last "advice", if Harry will heed it, will carry him into battle well armed - "Keep your mouth shut" (practice your non-verbal spells) "and your mind closed" (Occlumency). Harry will think back about how he trusted The Half Blood Prince and thought him brilliant. He would have burned it if he had known it was Snape. One of LV's weaknesses is he talks too much ? likes to show off his cleverness and make people squirm, follower and foe alike. He hasn't learned much in his confrontations with Harry ? did he at the graveyard? I doubt he will be able to help himself especially if Harry learned any taunting skills from Snape. Harry will learn to control his emotions when dealing with evil and yet keep his heart open to love and be loved. A tricky task for anyone. DD taught this by example and in my heart I think Harry learned it ? he just needs to discover it. My last post of the day - BG From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 20:40:40 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:40:40 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marianne S." wrote: Marianne S > 7) Harry's breakup with Ginny (which my pre-teen student did not think was the end) > shows the kind of maturity and acceptance that I hope all teens have. Ginny, for all I can > guess, is not giving up on Harry but she's letting him do what he Must. Geoff: I have to begin by saying that I have rarely read the "shipping forecasts" as, in general they do not interest me but, much to my surprise - in view of the massive number of posts coming in and the difficulty for me in even keeping up with two or three threads, I found myself glancing at one earlier today and feeling the need to say something about the Harry-Ginny set up. I felt that it was unfair for some posters to suggest that Harry "dumped" Ginny at the end of the book. He felt that it was necessary for the relationship to stop because of the danger involved. This is not dissimilar to the real life situations of the two World Wars when guys not more than a year or so older than Harry went off to the war and many of them felt that it was only right and proper that links with girl friends and sweethearts had to go on the back burner because of the uncertainty of the future. Agreed, some of them got married before they went (I'm not suggesting that with Harry and Ginny by the way) but that was fraught with potential difficulties. To give a (fictional) example, one of my favourite books is "To serve them all my days" by R.D. Delderfield which charts the life of a young man invalided out of the First World War who goes to teach at a boarding school on Exmoor. In the early 1920s, a woman teacher comes to the school and confides in the hero that she had been married during the war and her husband had had to return to the front; she further tells him that they had enjoyed a week of marriage before he left and that he was now a shell, wounded, not knowing her and permanently hospitalised. These were the problems facing wartime budding romances. And they still face Wizarding World relationships during the current state of war. Perhaps Ginny doesn't see the whole picture; she seems to think that Harry is withdrawing on a whim. `"We've got to stop seeing each other. We can't be together." She said, with an oddly twisted smile, "It's for some stupid, noble reason, isn't it?"' (HBP "The White Tower" p.602 UK edition) Which, to me, suggests that Ginny doesn't see ? or maybe doesn't know ? the full threat to Harry. He tries to make this clear... `"But I can't... we can't... I've got things to do." She did not cry, she simply looked at him. "Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to. He's already used you as bait once and that was just because you're my best friend's sister. Think how much danger you'll be in if we keep this up. He'll know, he'll find out. He'll try to get to me through you." "What if I don't care?" said Ginny fiercely. "I care," said Harry.' (ibid. pp.602-603) I wonder if this echoes a thousand conversations between sweethearts in 1914 and 1939? Again, Ginny perhaps doesn't get Harry's drift on things. `"But you've been too busy saving the wizarding world," said Ginny, half-laughing. "Well... I can't say I'm surprised. I knew this would happen in the end. I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort."' (ibid. p.603) Seems a strange definition of `happy'. And we already know that Harry feels it is necessary to be alone. `Perhaps the reason he wanted to be alone was because he had felt isolated from everybody since his talk with Dumbledore. An invisible barrier separated him from the rest of the world. He was - he had always been ? a marked man. It was just that he had never really understood what that meant... And yet sitting here on the edge of the lake, with the terrible weight of grief dragging at him, with the loss of Sirius so raw and fresh inside, he could not muster any great sense of fear' (OOTP "The Second War Begins" p.754 UK edition) He has not felt so isolated this year but he has been involved in things which have kept his mind of the isolation ? at least until now when with Dumbledore's death perhaps rekindling these feelings, he again feels these invisible barriers. Maybe, however, since all the Trio will be of age in the next book, he might feel ? or be pressurised by them ? to take up their intent to be with him. Not all of the guys came home after the two World Wars - but some did. Hopefully, there may yet be a time and place for the ship to weigh anchor again From feenyjam at msu.edu Tue Aug 2 20:58:09 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:58:09 -0000 Subject: Order Member we haven't officially met In-Reply-To: <20050802201341.62272.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136110 > "B.G." wrote: > > > My first thought when I heard JKR talk about an Order member we have > > not officially met was - Charlie Weasley. > > > My two cents worth anyway, BG > > Guru said: > Got to be DD's brother. He's in the picture that Harry saw in OotP. > Besides, we need an explanation for the goats: Who are they, why is he caring for them and what was the illegal spell that he was casting? > Greenfirespike says: I think, and this may be way out there, but maybe the other order member is Regulus Black. Most people think that Regulus is the RAB who took the real locket (and JKR herself almost agrees in her interview with mugglenet and LC, part 2 MA: R.A.B. JKR: Ohhh, good. [All laugh.] JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory? MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. JKR: Have you now? MA: Uh-oh. [Laughter.] JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. MA: And perhaps, being Sirius's brother, he had another mirror ? JKR: [drums fingers on soda can] MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius's mirror ? JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.] Add that to the part DD says to Draco in the US editions of the book, about being able to hide people... (US p591) "Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me-forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed you mother- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban....When the time comes, we can protect him too." That is my idea, Greenfirespike From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 21:04:58 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:04:58 -0000 Subject: Paradox - Time Travel - Side Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote: > bboyminn: > > >First, all time travel will create a paradox, even the best > > >thought out methods; there is simply no escape from that. > > >However, let's not lose perspective regarding the nature and > > >degree of paradox in PoA; ... > Archaeological James: > Sorry, I don't see this. Time travel can create paradoxes, but I see > no reason why it should. To be consistent, nothing can be done in > the past that prevents the reason for travelling back in time > existing (or the time travellers for that matter) - but outside > this, there is nothing you cannot do. Or I may be misremembering my > philosophy of science. > > Time travel can raise some very interesting questions, but I do not > see it as inherently paradoxical. > > ...edited... > > Achaeoligical James: bboyminn: Well, the fact that we are still discussing this is a pretty strong indicator of a paradox. The fact that an essentially dead subject which has been explained to the doubters again and again, he been revived and is now generating another dozen posts, again, is a pretty good sign that some people, despite my clear and concise explanations, refuse to accept my view of things [folds arms, pouts lips, and scowls ;)]. Further, despite my one-and-only-one timeline explanations which are supported by the books, some people still cling to the two-separate-independant timeline theory; "How can Harry be saved if he hasn't yet traveled back in time to save himself?". Like I said, there are many different view on this subject, but personally, I choose the obvious, short, and most pain-free explanation. As to time travel in general, if you look hard enough, and take the right attitude, you can always find a way to think that the author got it wrong, and that he/she has created irresolvable paradoxes. Again, this is more about the preception of the reader than the skill of the author. The nature of Time Travel in the Potter universe seems very straight forward to me. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 2 21:27:30 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:27:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136112 Some quotes I supplied from OoP and HBP to a reply on a related subject made me reconsider a new angle on Snape. The quotes below are all from the American Editions of OoP and HBP. OoP: PP. 593: "A greasy haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies". OoP: PP. 643: "Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face". HBP: We see Snape again hiding in a dark house in a chapter called "Spinner's End" (sorry did not look at specific quotes there), manipulating (or being manipulated by) the Black sisters. These images all conjure (to me) the image of some scheming spider hiding in a corner, waiting for his time and spinning webs of deceit for unsuspecting comers. Like Hagrid's spiders in the forest, he has no real allegiance to anyone except to himself. So... we have been arguing whether Snape's real allegiance was on DD's side or on LV's side. What if it is to neither? What if Snape (arguably the most talented wizard we've seen after DD and LV) really wants to rule the roost and not follow anyone's orders? Obviously Snape must first eliminate the two Big Shots on top, in such a way that he will suffer minimal repercussions. Clearly that's not an easy task, but then miraculously comes the Prophecy suggesting a way to get rid of Voldemort. He still needs to figure out a way to kill of Dumbledore and ensure that the prophecied boy both makes it to adulthood able to fulfill it, and is weaker than him. Harry (in Snape's view at least) is easy meat. So once he can get rid of DD and get Harry to eliminate LV, it should be a simple matter to kill Harry off in turn, and then who is The Grandest Wizard In the World? :-) To ensure that Harry reaches adulthood and defeats Voldemort, Snape immediately allies himself to DD side. He ends up killing DD a bit prematurely - got tangled in his own webs and was forced to kill DD before he was ready to do it (because of the Unbreakable Vow). Nevertheless it seems to have worked out very well for him: In one fell swoop he removed one obstacle to his desires, loaded Harry with the determination and drive to finally take on Voldemort (essential to his schemes) and got himself promoted to the leadership position within the Death Eaters. Now all that he needs is to keep Harry alive long enough to kill Voldemort, then kill Harry himself - which should both ensure the DE's will follow him next and eliminate the only other threat to his domination. Salit From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 2 21:29:10 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:29:10 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: > I have to begin by saying that I have rarely read the "shipping > forecasts" as, in general they do not interest me but, much to my > surprise - in view of the massive number of posts coming in and the > difficulty for me in even keeping up with two or three threads, I > found myself glancing at one earlier today and feeling the need to > say something about the Harry-Ginny set up. > > I felt that it was unfair for some posters to suggest that > Harry "dumped" Ginny at the end of the book. He felt that it was > necessary for the relationship to stop because of the danger involved. > > This is not dissimilar to the real life situations of the two World > Wars when guys not more than a year or so older than Harry went off > to the war and many of them felt that it was only right and proper > that links with girl friends and sweethearts had to go on the back > burner because of the uncertainty of the future. Agreed, some of them > got married before they went (I'm not suggesting that with Harry and > Ginny by the way) but that was fraught with potential difficulties. > To give a (fictional) example, one of my favourite books is "To serve > them all my days" by R.D. Delderfield which charts the life of a > young man invalided out of the First World War who goes to teach at a > boarding school on Exmoor. In the early 1920s, a woman teacher comes > to the school and confides in the hero that she had been married > during the war and her husband had had to return to the front; she > further tells him that they had enjoyed a week of marriage before he > left and that he was now a shell, wounded, not knowing her and > permanently hospitalised. > > These were the problems facing wartime budding romances. And they > still face Wizarding World relationships during the current state of > war. > > Perhaps Ginny doesn't see the whole picture; she seems to think that > Harry is withdrawing on a whim. > > Not all of the guys came home after the two World Wars - but some > did. Hopefully, there may yet be a time and place for the ship to > weigh anchor again Hickengruendler: Geoff, I find your example a bit problematic, in a sense that it doesn't really fit the situation. First of all, I'm not sure if really anyone said that Harry dumped Ginny. But I won't argue about this, maybe I just didn't saw it. IMO, it is clear that the break-up was just temporary and that they will reunite, if both survive book 7. However, I find Harry's reasoning a lot of nonsense. The thing is, that Ginny is in no way any safer now. And how can Harry be that foolish to think that she is? As you already stated in a part that I snipped, Voldemort already used her as a bait to lure Harry into a trap, and this was long before Harry even thought about Ginny in a romantic way. Ginny is in big danger of becoming a victim from Voldemort and his followers, and she is this no matter if she's Harry's girlfriend or not. She is a member of a "blood traitor" family, who already fought the Death Eaters twice. She is also close to Harry, no matter if as a love interest, a friend or just as a member of his very favourite family. So there are countless reasons for the Death Eaters to attack Ginny again. The fact that Harry and Ginny broke up changes nothing at all. The war parallel therefore doesn't really fit, since the girl who stays behind is as much in danger as the "soldier", and both of them are IMO idiots not to decide to enjoy the time together they have. Also, it bothers me a bit, that the safety of Harry's two best friends, one of them also a girl, doesn't seem to matter very much, since Harry doesn't seem to have any problems with them accompanying him. Not that I think that Ginny would have a chance of accompanying Harry anyway. In contrast to the Trio she is still 16 and has to do what Molly wants, in other words, very likely going to Hogwarts. Hickengruendler From lucy at luphen.co.uk Tue Aug 2 21:57:02 2005 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy and Stephen Dawson) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:57:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's OWLs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136114 I was comparing the HBP results with my predictions in my fanfic, and I only had Hermione down as taking 10 OWLS - what's the 11th one? I had her down as Charms, Transfiguration, Herbology, Defence Against the Dark Arts, Ancient Runes, Potions, Arithmancy, Care of Magical Creatures, Astronomy, and History of Magic. From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Tue Aug 2 21:57:19 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:57:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: <84.49bcc8a7.300edccf@aol.com> References: <84.49bcc8a7.300edccf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136115 Other funny lines: Fudge speaking to the Prime Minister: "My dear Prime Minister you can't honestly think I'm still Minister of Magic after all this? I was sacked three days ago! The whole wizarding community has been screaming for my resign for a fortnight. I've never seen them so united in my whole term of office." This is a line that any manager can appreciate. The Weasly's Christmas Tree: "The angel on the top of the tree was actually a garden gnome that had bitten Fred....Stupefied, painted gold, stuffed into a miniature tutu and with small wings glued to its back, it glowered down at them all, the ugliest angel Harry had ever seen, with a bald head like a potato and rather hairy feet." Morale: Never let the children (whatever the age) put up Christmas decorations unsupervised. Dumbledore to Harry in the Weasley's "outhouse": He Harry) stopped, careful not to say what he really thought. "I think 'fiasco' would be a good one here, " said Dumbledore smiling (`'?.?(`'?.?-:?:-?.?' ?)?.?'?) -:?:-??..-:?:-* ~ Barbara~ *-:?:-..??-:?:- (?.?'?(?.?'?-:?:-`'?.?)`'?.?) From muellem at bc.edu Tue Aug 2 22:16:57 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:16:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > These images all conjure (to me) the image of some scheming spider > hiding in a corner, waiting for his time and spinning webs of deceit > for unsuspecting comers. Like Hagrid's spiders in the forest, he has > no real allegiance to anyone except to himself. > > So... we have been arguing whether Snape's real allegiance was on DD's > side or on LV's side. What if it is to neither? What if Snape > (arguably the most talented wizard we've seen after DD and LV) really > wants to rule the roost and not follow anyone's orders? > > Obviously Snape must first eliminate the two Big Shots on top, in such > a way that he will suffer minimal repercussions. Clearly that's not an > easy task, but then miraculously comes the Prophecy suggesting a way > to get rid of Voldemort. He still needs to figure out a way to kill of > Dumbledore and ensure that the prophecied boy both makes it to > adulthood able to fulfill it, and is weaker than him. Harry (in > Snape's view at least) is easy meat. So once he can get rid of DD and > get Harry to eliminate LV, it should be a simple matter to kill Harry > off in turn, and then who is The Grandest Wizard In the World? :-) > colebiancardi: this theory, in several forms, has been posted before. I have even posted it, but not as well-thought out and neatly summarized as your post. I like to call it the TW!Snape - Top Wizard Snape theory, for a lack of a better term, as no one has come up with one yet :) so I did :) :) colebiancardi From oiboyz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 22:19:42 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:19:42 -0000 Subject: Feelings, Occlumency, fighting Dementors and LV (was: Why I am 98.6% certain...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136117 BG: > 1) During the Occlumency "fiasco", I kept getting the impression that > Snape was really pushing Harry to get one single point; he even > shouts it out, something along the lines of "if I can do this to you, > imagine what it will be like when LV gives it a go!"...... > My take on this is that Snape was trying like mad to shake him > out of it, using the old "making-it-worse" trick; only it didn't > work... Was that, also, part of Dumbledore's idea? What do you guys > think? oiboyz: I doubt Snape was trying a psychological trick to shake Harry out of complacency. I think the lessons were hard partly because Harry was naturally bad at Occlumency, and partly because Snape was a nasty person who hated Harry and resented having to teach him. In support of the first assertion, here's a quote from JKR's recent interview that CathyD recently reminded me of: "Harry's problem with [occlumency] was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories." But I would agree that Snape really did want Harry to learn Occlumency (if only so the lessons could end!) He was furious when he found out Harry was still having his slithering-with-Voldemort dreams. And as you point out, he takes time to give Harry one final lesson in the uses of Occlumency right before fleeing Hogwarts. Assume for a minute that Snape's really on the Order's side (as I've always believed), and that he'll be able to convince Harry of this at some point in Book 7. I think it would be deliciously ironic if Harry realizes in Book 7 that he really, really needs to know Occlumency before he confronts Voldemort again, and he has to learn from Snape. I have the impression that JKR is fixing to have Harry defeat LV not by hiding his feelings, but by *using* them (especially the famous Love). But there would be wonderful parallels if Harry and Snape took up the Occlumency lessons again. In Book 5 they failed because Snape couldn't overcome personal animosity and Harry didn't make himself practice. Dumbledore hoped they'd be able to work together, but they let him down. Now DD's gone, but maybe in Book 7 they'll finally cooperate the way he always wanted them to. JKR has done something like this before. In Book 5, Harry is embarassed that Cho finds him on the train in the company of uncool people like Luna and Neville. But in Book 6 when Romilda Vane tells him, "You don't have to sit with *them*!" Harry stands up for his friends and tells Luna later, "You *are* cool." JKR uses that scene to show how Harry has matured. Maybe she'll do the same with the Occlumency lessons, giving Harry a chance to retake a test that he failed the last time. BG: > Snape's style of teaching is deplorable - he thinks (I almost wrote > feels - don't think Snape has much use for feelings) that expressing > any feelings toward another is a sign of weakness. By controlling > all emotions he feels strong when it's his greatest weakness. oiboyz: Remember Harry mentioning that he and Snape disagreed on the best way to fight a Dementor? Lupin taught Harry to beat back Dementor-induced despair by holding on to a happy memory. I'm sure Snape has no use for that. His method is probably something like boxing off his feelings so he can perform the charm before despair overwhelms him. BG: > Harry will think back > about how he trusted The Half Blood Prince and thought him > brilliant. He would have burned it if he had known it was Snape. oiboyz: I just love that about the HBP storyline-- that JKR found a way to make Harry appreciate Snape unwittingly. He even thinks of the book as "a kind of guide and friend"-- ha! Maybe he'll have to make a potion in Book 7 and go running to the Room of Requirement to fetch Snape's textbook again, hoping desperately to find some help written in Snape's handwriting... BG: > Harry will learn to control his emotions when dealing with evil and > yet keep his heart open to love and be loved. A tricky task for > anyone. DD taught this by example... oiboyz: Good point; DD was loving and yet able to control his feelings very well when he needed to. I think Harry's going to have to deal with his feelings-- either control them or use them-- before he fights LV again. "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor." Oops, wrong story. :) -oiboyz From lealess at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 22:22:41 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:22:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Salit wrote: > So... we have been arguing whether Snape's real allegiance was on DD's > side or on LV's side. What if it is to neither? What if Snape > (arguably the most talented wizard we've seen after DD and LV) really > wants to rule the roost and not follow anyone's orders? > lealess: Let's assume Snape set out to eliminate the Big Two, but had to wait until Dumbledore was weak enough and Harry was trained enough to take on Voldemort. Is Snape acting as though he is actually trying to take over the wizarding world? (1) Where is he building his base? Does he have followers, like Dumbledore and Voldemort do? Has he tried to recruit followers? Does he even have friends? Isn't he described as a loner in the books? (2) Where has Snape tried to exert control over anyone else (successfully, not symbolically) before? Has he been shown to use Imperius, Obliviate, or other mind-control techniques? Has he told Big Lies? Even the (mild and petulant) detentions given to Harry in HBP try to offer suggestion, not mind-altering coercion, about his father and godfather. And if he wanted to get the truth from Draco, couldn't he have given him Veratiserum? (3) Who fears Snape? If Bellatrix and the group in the Astronomy Tower are any indication, the Death Eaters respect him, but might not follow him out of fear. Even Wormtail listens in at doors in Snape's own home. (4) Who loves Snape? enough to follow him. (5) If there's a void created by a subsequent death of Voldemort, would Snape be able to step into it? Who would welcome him? What position does he hail from? He is not Minister of Magic, or anything seemingly above the fray. He's killed the beloved Dumbledore. Voldemort will be dispatched in some manner in due course. Will the followers of the Big Two roll out the welcome mat for him then? (6) What about Harry? Isn't he the "and a Half" after the Big Two? Snape would have to defeat Harry, or his followers, assuming there is no Unbreakable Vow binding Snape from ever harming Harry. Does he seem to be anticipating the day he faces Potter? He's been pretty easy on him so far, not as psychologically intimidating as I would be if I wanted to throw an opponent off guard for a future fight. I can see where eliminating the Big Two (and a Half, counting Harry) would allow Snape to lead a peaceful life, but... all evidence points to Snape being someone who ultimately lets others determine the course of their own lives, hoping they will leave him the hell alone. I do not see him as a ruler, even with the Half-Blood Prince moniker. lealess From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 2 22:24:18 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:24:18 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136119 Who the hell is Florence? Sylvia (who doubts that we are ever going to find out) From Sherry at PebTech.net Tue Aug 2 20:57:13 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:57:13 -0000 Subject: Is Sirius really dead? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136120 Twinkeles20002000 wrote: > I do not think that Sirius Black is dead. He however passed through the > veil, and due to Harry, Hermione and Ron's good relationship with the > dead will be able to pass through once more and get him out. Anyone > with a comment or theory please reply. Amontillada: First of all, what is the difference between "dying" and "passing through the veil"? From Luna's talk with Harry afterward, she at least sees it as the same thing. Throughout the series, death appears to be not the end of existence, but a change to a different kind of existence. Nearly Headless Nick told Harry that Sirius "would have gone on" to that other existence, while Nick was suspended between life and death "neither here nor there," because he shrunk from death (OotP US edition, p. 861). So Sirius is now...somewhere, in some form. I don't expect Harry and his friends to bring Sirius back to life as they are living it. It's possible that Harry might find some way to contact Sirius where/as he is now. But what's more likely is Harry communicating with Dumbledore. We know that the portraits of the late headmasters are talkative sorts on the office walls. Even if the portrait is only a shadow of its subject, I think that the portrait of Dumbledore might reflect some of the knowledge or wisdom that Dumbledore would have passed along to Harry if he'd had the time. Amontillada From khaili at uai.com.br Tue Aug 2 21:44:10 2005 From: khaili at uai.com.br (khaili) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:44:10 -0300 Subject: JKR's comment Message-ID: <42efe92a.29b.33ac.1500458124@uai.com.br> No: HPFGUIDX 136121 Hey y'all, I've been a lurker for the longest time but I'm trying to keep up. Theories are the only thing that will make the next two years or so bearable :) So, at that double TLC-Mugglenet interview JKR said that "by the end of the week, fans will have correctly identified at least one more Horcrux". I actually had a dream with that statement; I dreamt I found out what that Horcrux was and came here to post about it. :p But since I'm not a Seer and I don't even remember what was the answer in the dream, here's the question: is there any theory of Horcrux besides the ones mentioned in the book, and besides the 'Harry, living Horcrux' one? Thanks! Julie - from brazil From oiboyz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 22:32:38 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:32:38 -0000 Subject: Hermione's OWLs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lucy and Stephen Dawson" wrote: > I was comparing the HBP results with my predictions in my fanfic, and > I only had Hermione down as taking 10 OWLS - what's the 11th one? I > had her down as Charms, Transfiguration, Herbology, Defence Against > the Dark Arts, Ancient Runes, Potions, Arithmancy, Care of Magical > Creatures, Astronomy, and History of Magic. Did she drop Muggle Studies? -oiboyz From muellem at bc.edu Tue Aug 2 22:36:13 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:36:13 -0000 Subject: JKR's comment In-Reply-To: <42efe92a.29b.33ac.1500458124@uai.com.br> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "khaili" wrote: > But since I'm not a Seer and I don't even remember what was > the answer in the dream, here's the question: is there any > theory > of Horcrux besides the ones mentioned in the book, and > besides the 'Harry, living Horcrux' one? > > Thanks! > > Julie - from brazil Hi Julie I have read a lot of theories about the "next" horcrux on these boards. My bet is on the Special Services Award Shield that Tom Riddle won and at Hogwarts. Ron had to clean 50 times to get the slug slime off of it, when he was doing detention in CoS. it is personal and Voldemort likes the personal items, as well as *special* items as his horcruxes... but that is just my 2 knuts colebiancardi From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 22:39:11 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:39:11 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and me (was : Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness...) In-Reply-To: <20050802163242.23730.qmail@web32701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136124 I'm getting sick of it... I'm being attacked on things that I specifically said I don't believe in, my hypothetical counter-examples are misused as representations of my true beliefs, and in the meantime the real subject I wanted to talk about is not being addressed. So here's a recapitulative list of what I do and don't believe, and what my real issues with the H/G romance are. 1. I DO *NOT* BELIEVE THAT HARRY IS ABUSING GINNY. 2. I *NEVER* ASKED HP TO BE TURNED INTO A ROMANCE. It's *JKR* who chose to put some romance in her books. I never asked her to give Harry a girlfriend, *she* made that choice. Personally, I would have been more than happy to skip the whole Cho disaster, and I could do without Ginny. 3. I also never asked her to make Love such a central theme of the saga, to make it the most powerful form of magic and the one force that will vanquish LV. It is JKR who made those choices, not me. But now that she made them, I expect her to stay true to them. If love is so important, then it is totally illogical IMO to keep Harry's true romance off-screen. 4. JKR knows she's writing, among other people, for young people who have an immature view of love and romance. That's why I expected her to *explain* what a happy and healthy relationship is, instead of assuming that all her readers would know. JKR *knows* that way too many girls have an unhealthy interest in Draco for example. So she knows that many young girls (and boys) *cannot* be trusted to know what a healthy relationship is like. So her not explaining (in the book) *why* Ginny and Harry's romance is a good and healthy one is silly, a lost opportunity, and IMO even dangerous. 5. Everyone is not like each of us. Just because we don't read a scene in a certain way doesn't mean that nobody else does, and vice versa. And not everyone has the same life experience as each of us does: some of us have never had a sweet teen romance to project on Harry and Ginny, for example. So I'm glad to know that there are people out there who have had such a romance that they can project on Harry and Ginny, but for someone like me who didn't have that luck, the H/G romance is simply *empty*. 6. All I was asking for was for JKR to *show* us the relationship between Harry and Ginny instead of *telling* us about it. And no, it would *not* take hundreds of pages, that's a totally fallacious argument. Examples: * Instead of telling us that Harry reminisces about a happy hour spent with Ginny, let her show us Harry and Ginny having a happy time together, so that we can see for ourselves that the relationship is a happy and healthy one. Example: "Harry and Ginny often spent an hour on the grounds in the evening, dissing the teachers, sharing the funny moments that had happened during the day, discussing their dreams and fears, commenting on the Quidditch season and teams, or simply walking around the lake hand in hand." See? It takes 5 lines, and it lets me *see* that indeed their relationship looks like what I consider a healthy and happy one. Not to mention that it provides me with a *canon* basis to build on when I think of them together. * Instead of telling us that Harry is so happy, she could show it. Example: "Harry often dreamt of Ginny: Ginny laughing, Ginny flying, Ginny looking at him with that look in her eyes that made him feel like the king of the world. And then he would wake up feeling elated and full of optimism. Even the bad news in the Daily Prophet that Hermione read out loud during breakfast most of the time didn't manage to break his positive outlook on life." And so on. This would not take a lot of room, and it would significantly help people like me to know what is going on, and to feel for themselves the goodness of that romance. 7. Everyone can disagree with my opinion that the depiction of the H/G romance is disastrous, but that doesn't make my concerns any less valid. I have several problems with the way the H/G romance is written, and that is my *right*. I respect everybody else's right to have their own take on that romance, and I ask that everybody else does the same for me. Telling me that I don't get the author's intent, or that I should do this or that is not helping. The fact is that I *have* a problem with it, and I just wanted to discuss it. 8. What about my counter-arguments about the H/G romance? (see post 135989, at the end)? Del From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 22:41:23 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:41:23 -0000 Subject: horcruxes - how do we know there are only four left? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136125 Horcrux recap: 1. Riddle's diary (destroyed) 2. Slytherin's ring (destroyed) 3. Locket - missing 4. Cup - never located 5. Ravenclaw/Gryffindor artifact - unknown (Hat, Sword, Phoenix?) 6. Nagini (suspected) - whereabouts unknown 7. Piece that is still within Voldemort (NO WAY can one of the Horcrux's be Harry, IMO, why try to kill him so many times if he were a horcrux???) However, we are also told that Voldemort was FURIOUS when he found out what Lucius Malfoy did with his diary and that it was destroyed. That would leave only 6 soul fragments behind, not seven. (Incidentally, did anyone notice that the Wizard of the Month on JKR's website is the witch who discovered the magical properties of the number 7?) So after his Horcruxes were reduced in number, what if Voldemort created another one, to re-create seven? Any offscreen murder could have been used to do it. I can envision a scenario where a triumphant Harry confronts Voldemort, thinking he has destroyed all of the Horcruxes, only for Voldemort to say, "See, you stupid boy? Here is my 7th Horcrux, the crumple-horned snorkack of Merlin!" (or something similarly obscure and unpredictable) Allie From leslie41 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 22:44:25 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:44:25 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136126 Just want to add my kudos to severelysigune for the extremely provocative post, and add some comments to particular parts. > "Spinner's End" shows us Snape in his natural surroundings, in an > ancestral home far removed from the one fandom has often liked to > allot to him. I love this too. Ravenclaw!Snape often has a huge manse he ambles about in over the summer, and comes equipped with exquisite taste in furnishings and food. How nice to see that Canon Snape lives in a shamble of a tiny house with threadbare furniture--and lots and lots of books. > I have to admit that it is perhaps a bit unfair calling Snape > na?ve. I don't think he is. It is just that he has allowed > himself to be seduced by the admittedly formidable combined forces > of the Black sisters there is a seduction going on: she > coaxes him into making a mistake. I don't think so, or at least it isn't Bella and Narcissa doing the seducing. > However, the most compelling pressure issues not from Bella, but > from her sister, whose tears flow freely, who clutches at Snape's > robes,holds his hands and throws herself at his feet. She strokes > his ego: "you could do it," she says, "you are the Dark > Lord's favourite", "you are Draco's favourite teacher", "/you/ > would succeed". All pretty transparent to this sceptical observer > but Narcissa has touched a nerve. No doubt a portion of > his brain tells him that he finds himself in a danger zone (mark > his unease at the sight of her tears); but his > vanity and pride send signals that are too strong for so weak a > man to resist. Snape is deeply enjoying his power over Pretty > Cissy. He says yes, not out of the goodness of his heart, but > because it is his moment of triumph over all he has wanted to be > but has not been able to reach. He has finally come to the point > where he can bow down to pick up a pure-blooded aristocratic > beauty from where she is grovelling in the dust. Stupid, stupid, > stupid. The trap closes, and Narcissa has him where she wants him: > on his knees and firmly bound by a powerful spell. I would disagree with this, simply because from the very moment that the sisters appear he is in complete and utter control of them, Wormtail, and the entire situation. Rowling hints at the sisters' predicament even before they arrive. Snape's house is in a "deserted labyrinth of brick houses," the very last house at the end of a street named "Spinner's End," over which a the chimney of a mill "hovers like an admonitory finger". Remember that our perspective here is Narcissa's, not Snape's, at least until she gets to the house itself. The labyrinth of houses seems to be the web that Snape inhabits, and the mill chimney seems to caution Narcissa--against what? Against *him*, of course. She is approaching the Spinner--Snape. Any reading of the chapter that does not see Snape in this role--as wholly manipulating the situation and drawing both the sisters into his "web," misses the point I think. If Narcissa is the spinner, why does Snape live in a "web" at Spinner's end? Immediately, the sisters feel the oppressiveness of the place. It feels to them like a "padded cell." Snape, of course, feels no such oppression, anymore than he is "oppressed" in the dank environs of his dungeons. Throughout, he seems quite comfortable. Narcissa is desperate, Bellatrix is furious, and neither one of them have control either over themselves or the situation. Snape does. His interchange with Bellatrix--Bellatrix Lestrange, murderer of our precious Sirius Black--slices her neatly into tiny little ribbons, robbing her of her surety of his guilt, and placing a seed of doubt within her about her relationship with Voldemort. He mocks her, her doubts, her performance at the ministry, and her sacrifice in Azkaban, without ever challenging her directly, and answers every one of her questions about his loyalties one by one by one. There doesn't seem to me any indication in the text that Snape is in any way moved by Narcissa as a woman. There is no indication in any of the novels that Snape has ever been moved by a woman, for good or ill. If anything the scene I think reveals him to be entirely uncomfortable with her pleas, because they are enforcing an imtimacy with him that he does not desire. When she grabs his robes he removes "her clutching hands," by the *wrists* so as not to take her hands in his, and basically tells her "enough of this" a few minutes later. What moves Snape? What gratifies him? What gives him a sense of satisfaction? Not the pleas of a pureblood. Working for the order. In OotP we find this interchange between Harry and Snape: Snape: ...it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters. Harry: No - that's your job, isn't it? He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered. "Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job." He is the seducer here, not Narcissa. I think it is entirely possible he doesn't know anything at all about the plan until Narcissa and Bellatrix show up, and only figures it out from their conversation. As for the name "Spinner's end" itself, it could be read any number of ways. Of course in Britain "end" at the end of a street name refers to the boundary of a town. Obviously Rowling has more in mind than that of course. It could mean "the demise of the Spinner" (Snape). But the word can also mean "goal" ("the ends justify the means") or even, according to the dictionary, "the part you are supposed to play" (as in "he held up his end"). Makes ya think. From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Aug 2 22:54:28 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:54:28 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136127 Based on JKR's interviews and the books so far, there is a LOT of ground to cover in book 7... I'm hoping most of them are tied up and it's a really long book. For starters, she needs to deal with: ** Lily's eyes - are we ever going to find out the significance? ** Sirius's mirror ? she SAID it would figure in, but not in the way we thought ** Ron & Hermione (SHIP) ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help Harry? ** Find and destroy ALL the Horcruxes (if Harry does find them, how on earth is he going to learn how to destroy them when you can't even find in the entire Hogwarts library what they even are??), find and destroy Voldemort! ** SNAPE???? Dumbledore's orders??? Truly ESE??? Something else??? We never DID find out why Dumbledore trusted him so much. ** Who is RAB? Regulus Black? Since we ALL called this one, could it be a red herring??? ** Who's the person to learn magic late in life? ** What becomes of the Malfoys? ** Harry & Ginny back together? ** Luna??? Is ANYTHING she says for real? ** Droobles Best Blowing Gum wrappers? Do the Longbottoms recover? Does Neville find the way? ** What happened to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia? ** What is Harry's other pet? Does he get Fawkes? ** Does someone get Bellatrix Black? I'd really like to see her bite the dust, personally. ** Dumbledore's portrait - I don't think it will be able to give Harry any useful advice, but I'm sure he will try to speak with it anyway. Will there be room for anything else in the story? I can just see the table of contents, lol. Chapter 1: The Real Severus Snape. Chapter 2: RAB Revealed. Chapter 3: The Longbottoms' Surprise. Chapter 4: Mimbulus Mumbilio. Comments? More loose ends? Allie From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 22:55:01 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:55:01 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136128 >1) Saving Harry's life in PS >vmonte: >If you recall Snape did not know that Quirrell was working for >Voldemort during SS/PS. Voldemort kept Snape in the dark. Mari again: Let me expand a bit. The fact that Snape saves Harry during the Quidditch match has nothing to do with quirrelmort and the stone. At this stage Snape has no idea that Harry would be able to stop Quirrell from getting the stone. Snape does not know that Harry is a threat to Voldemort's plans to get the stone. It is a case of a student in danger of being hurt or killed, and Snape steps in. Why? He does not say that Dumbledore asked him to protect Harry in the Spinner's end chapter of HBP. He couldn't afford to be seen to be harming Harry, that's true. Snape may have thought his cover with Dumbledore would be strengthened, but Dumbledore already trusts him. He could not dispose of Harry if he is a death eater, but he does not have to protect him. >Mari: >2) Choosing to go after the trio to the shrieking shack, to protect >them from someone he believed to be in league with Voldemort, in PoA. >vmonte: >Well, this is a matter of interpretation. I see a teacher that is >more concerned with exacting revenge and getting accolades, than a >teacher who is worried about his students. It's precisely because I can't see Snape being that concerned about students that this action puzzles me. I totally agree that Snape was after accolades. Later on in my post I identified this as a characteristic of Snape's that is evident from what we know of him in the books so far. He craves admiration. Let's look at the sequence of events again: 1) Snape sees the trio (and Peter Pettigrew) sneak down to Hagrid's on the marauders map. 2) He sees Sirius and the other four go past the whomping willow to the Shrieking Shack. 3) Snape believes Sirius Black to be after Harry, and Lupin has forgotten to take his potion so will also possibly be dangerous. However, he doesn't like any of the trio. WHY bother to try to protect Harry again? No one else knows that Sirius Black is in the grounds, let alone where he and the trio are. If he was just ESE, surely it is much easier to pretend he never saw Sirius going into the Shrieking Shack, or to tell Dumbledore that he has found Sirius rather than running a risk himself. He seems to be choosing to do something that his inclination does not naturally lead him to do. Why? The interesting thing is if he suspected that Sirius was able to get into the grounds as an animagus, there was plenty of opportunity through the year for him to get revenge on Sirius by handing him over, if that was his motivation. However, he decided to take action when the trio were in danger. >Mari: >3) Trying to convince Fudge in GoF that Voldemort is back, when >Voldemort didn't want anyone to know this. >vmonte: >Moody had already threatened to tell Dumbledore that Snape had it in >for Harry (I don't think that Snape knew that Moody was Crouch Jr.). >Snape probably felt that he had to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore. But Snape tells Fudge this after Barty Crouch has lost his soul and is incapable of telling anyone anything. Why would he be a threat? Also things are set up pretty nicely at this point for Voldemort to come back to power. Barty Crouch can't give evidence because the Dementor sucked out his soul. Dumbledore and Harry have been pretty effectively discredited by Rita Skeeter. There was no advantage to be gained from speaking to Fudge. Dumbledore already trusts Snape and has done so since he came to the school. Nothing would have changed had Snape said nothing about the dark mark, or Voldemort being back. Why take the risk of annoying Voldemort, when this wasn't necessary to remain as a spy for Dumbledore? >4) Alerting the order to what was going on in the Department of >Mysteries. >vmonte: >He took his sweet time didn't he. Funny how he never shows up to >anything. Where was he during the fight? Maybe he was afraid of >blowing his DE cover you say? He's the Potions Master no? He's got >all kinds of potions locked in his room doesn't he? And with all the >polyjuice that seems to be floating around Hogwarts you would think >that Snape would have some to spare for when he needs to go >somewhere in disguise. But I guess not. Ok, I checked the sequence of events here again to be sure what happened. 1) Umbridge calls Snape to the office ordering him to make more veritaserum; Snape says he is unable to do so. 2) Harry warns Snape cryptically about Sirius being in the Department of Mysteries. 3) Harry goes to the forest with Hermione, Ron and Umbridge. 4) Snape alerts order members, who go to the department of mysteries. He tells the order members he will go to the forest to search for Harry in case he is still there. The interesting thing is, Harry hears about Snape giving fake veritaserum, and the sequence of events leading up to the battle at the Department of Mysteries, through Dumbledore. So once again we are not given direct access to what happened. This is why I have only mentioned the events that can be verified by other members of the Order. Voldemort wanted Harry in the Department of Mysteries by himself. No one knew that Harry asked Snape for help at the time it all happened. Again, there was no advantage to be gained from alerting the order at all. This was not necessary to maintain his cover with Dumbledore because Dumbledore never needed to know that Snape was aware of anything. How could Snape have been blamed if Dumbledore thought that the Order (including Snape) did not know what was happening at the Department of Mysteries until it was too late? If Snape were just a death eater, why wouldn't he have done all he could to ensure that Voldemort got the prophecy? After all he is the one who told Voldemort about it in the first place! Mari. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 23:13:31 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:13:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione's OWLs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136129 Lucy and Stephen Dawson wrote: > I was comparing the HBP results with my predictions in my fanfic, and > I only had Hermione down as taking 10 OWLS - what's the 11th one? I > had her down as Charms, Transfiguration, Herbology, Defence Against > the Dark Arts, Ancient Runes, Potions, Arithmancy, Care of Magical > Creatures, Astronomy, and History of Magic. oiboyz: > Did she drop Muggle Studies? AD: She said she was going to, but I doubt that she needed to take any further courses to ace the test. Her own knowledge of Muggle society and a little independent study would probably be sufficient. She did, after all, get 320% on her final test the year she took the course. ;-) Amiable Dorsai From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 23:16:32 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:16:32 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136130 Marianne: I think there are some things that the author intends readers to not sure which choice to make... as in Who is R.A.B. or Is Snape Evil or Good or Somewhere In Between? But, she has also met with incredulity the fact that people make choices she never intends ... i.e. Harry/ Hermione or Luna/Neville or Sirius/Lupin as "ships". I can only imagine that if she were to know that someone so fervently believes that the relationship between Harry and Ginny is abusive and a poor example especially for her adolescent girl audience (including her own adolescent daughter).. she might wonder if they were reading the same book, and perhaps hope that person just makes the choice to not read the books if they choose to see the hero as an abuser. Sienna: With all due respect Marianne :) but I it is dangerous to suggest that what a person sees in a narrative is merely a matter of choice. I can choose to ignore what my psyche tells me about a text and simply try to find what the author wants me to see, but to do so would require a suspension of disbelief on my part and a cessation of brain activity to boot. In addition, as I have said repeatedly, Rowling has become far too used to being able to explain herself outside of canon for my liking. What if I had *never* read or seen her transcript explaining what she thinks about romance and who Ginny was *supposed* to be and had only her books to go by? What then would I deduce? I certainly wouldn't have the foggiest idea what the author *meant* to say, I would only be able to tell you what I picked up from it. And I think all of those alternative interpretations are useful and should be encouraged. By way of example ? if I as a person behave in a certain way, which I think is compassionate, but a third party comes along and tells me that actually I am being very patronising, who is right? By your argument I am right because I *intended* to be compassionate and I could tell them so. But was I really? And even if I tell them, does that mean they should necessarily buy it? Doesn't the behaviour itself speak louder that my intention? Perhaps I have an issue I am in denial over or do not wish to confront something and instead subconsciously choose to masquarade patronising with compassion. Similarly, I think it is absolutely mandatory that we question whether Rowling's canon actually matches what she thought she was portraying or saying to young girls. And it is adults like us, not children who are already at the whim of too much stereotypical and misogynistic media, who are in the best position to analyse it. Although I think Del's example is extreme, I can defifinitely see the point being made. I actually think that Rowling has succeeded in being far *less* subversive of traditional female roles than she intended and that the subtext, even allowing for third party-limited point of view, is extremely patriarchal at its core. And even though I prefer the Ron and Hermione dynamic in HBP a thousand times more than the Harry and Ginny one, I have some small problems with that too that should probably be analysed in the fullness of time. Just my opinion. Sienna From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Aug 2 23:22:27 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:22:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Ginny and me (was : Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F00033.6020308@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136131 delwynmarch wrote: > I'm getting sick of it... I'm being attacked on things that I > specifically said I don't believe in, my hypothetical counter-examples > are misused as representations of my true beliefs, and in the meantime > the real subject I wanted to talk about is not being addressed. Don't worry, at least some people were able to get your arguments. And I, for one, think that they make quite a lot of sense. I don't care one way or another for Harry/Hermione, or Ron/Hermione, or Harry/Ginny (I don't read these books for kiddies relationships, romantic or otherwise, to tell you the truth ;-)) but your arguments for "show, don't tell" are very good. See, we didn't need to be told "Harry has matured over the summer holidays". It was obvious from his behaviour. Why she couldn't do the same for romance, I don't understand. Oh, and I don't want to hear how Ron learned to respect what's important for Hermione. I want to see a convincing demonstration. Until then, I'll feel very sorry for Hermione, succumbing to peer pressure to have a boyfriend, and getting a completely unsuitable one. (Again, I'm not a H/H shipper, OK? Harry wouldn't have been much better for her). Irene From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 23:27:36 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:27:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136132 Sorry for posting twice in the same thread, but I wanted to respond to the following little bit: Luna: I agree with most of what you said, but I it is unfair to say that Jo didn't show Ginny or Ginny growing into Harry's equal. Now me: I understand all these moments Luna, but I still can't get past the fact that these small moments were spread out over 5 books and interspersed with larger, more significant, deeper moments with other girls in Harry's periphery - namely Hermione and Luna - both of whom had very similar moments (and Hermione more of them) with Harry. And this is my *big* problem with H/G. Foreshadowing? Sure. But only really in hindsight. For it to gel, it has to be unique and I'm sorry, but it just wasn't. JMO. :) Sienna From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 20:27:26 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:27:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of the Snape apologists :0) In-Reply-To: <1123013063.3356.52337.m8@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123013063.3356.52337.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd050802132716a779a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136133 houyhnhnm writes: > > You have to assume that Snape > really is a Death Eater telling Bellatrix the truth in order to prove > that he really is a Death Eater. If he's lying to her then we don't > know whether he made the Quirrel/Voldemort connection or not. The > following passage from PS/SS is suggestive, though ambiguous. > > "It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past > Quirrel's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain > shot across shot across the scar on Harry's forehead." ====================== Lisa responds: Not ambiguous at all - JKR has cleared that up. She clarified that Quirrell was, at the time, looking at Snape, making the back of his turban face Harry, which in turn was what was making Harry's scar hurt. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From literature_Caro at web.de Tue Aug 2 23:27:42 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:27:42 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would you ask? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <695468183.20050803012742@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136134 > Hi Potterphiles! > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to > know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? > Snapeophile Hi! Easy thing! I would ask her when book 7 will be published. Or better (though this is no real question): Please answer me every question that will apper to me after reading book 7. Caro From prep0strus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 23:35:00 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:35:00 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny's romance: canon pros and cons (was SHIP: Where is the canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136135 > In contrast, the relationship between Ron and Hermione seems to me > much more emotionally intimate and mature by the end of HBP. They can > talk about everything, they are not afraid to disagree, they respect > the other's opinion when they do disagree, they are not afraid to show > their true feelings to the other, they talk as a couple (both say "we" > when talking to Harry at the end, which implies that either they've > already discussed the matter, or they *really* know each other well), > and so on. If I had to put my money on which couple has the most > chances to last, I'd put all of it on Ron and Hermione. > > Del I disagree with almost everything you've said about Harry & Ginny (except that showing us a little bit more would've been nice), but I figure that's been discussed pretty much out the wazoo, so I thought I'd comment on Hermione & Ron... I don't understand how you can be so aggressively negative about H/G, but simply accept R/H. At least in the little time we do see Harry & Ginny together, they seem happy, and enjoy each other. Now, I know Harry is the main focus of the story - that's why we don't see 'Ginny's side' of the relationship. It's also why we know Ron & Hermione best by how they act with Harry, not each other. But I wouldn't've minded seeing them enjoy each other's company a bit more. We've known that they're GOING to get together for a long time now, and yet... I don't see any real reason for it. Complaints have been made about Ginny 'making Harry jealous', but that seems to be almost entirely what R/H's relationship is. Ron got jealous when Hermione got with Krum - a guy who actually saw her as a girl. Then, Ron, feeling a bit immature compared to his friends, got with Lavender, making Hermione jealous. Hermione, of course, deliberately went on a date with McLaggen to make Ron jealous. We've seen over and over how if anyone else enters the picture, they get mad. But what about their reactions to each other? Ron is impatient with Hermione - her studying constantly, her superior attitude. He acts as though he feels he is inferior to her. Hermione is impatient with Ron - she doesn't like that he doesn't study, has a slightly looser moral code than her, and most of all, doesn't find him funny! Ron jokes around all the time - but Hermione is never really in on it. He and Harry bond, and Harry and Hermione even seem to click better than Ron and Hermione. A lot has been made of the fact that it could be like Mr. & Mrs. Weasely, and... ok. I mean, that's a possibility, but is that really what we want to be looking for? And, I don't think it's a perfect match anyway. Hermione is clearly more professionally ambitious than Mrs. Weasely, and Ron has a bit more of an attitude and spunk than Mr. Weasely. Really, I'm rooting for them, but I would've liked to see a bit more of them enjoying each other's company. Opposites attract, sure, and they have a shared love of Harry, but there has to be more of it than simply being jealous when anyone else is around. I have to assume that they share something that we haven't been privy too. I would like to mention also that I think that what kids see in these characters is probably really good - especially as teen heroines. Ginny is an athlete, a smart alec, a girl who stands up for herself. We've seen her go through a shy stage, growing into independance. Her previous relationships, which I don't believe for a second were contrived to make Harry jealous show her strength. Dean, for whom we have no evidence that he's a bad guy (from what we've seen from his roommate for 6 years) apparently treated Ginny a little chauvenistic, or was a little domineering - and she let him go. We know it had been a point of contention - she brought it up before, and then got rid of him. The idea that the character of Ginny as drawn would be in an abusive relationship is ludicrous - as ludicrous as the idea that the Harry we've gotten to know over 6 books, a previous relationship, his friendships, etc, could be an abuser. We also have Hermione - a smart, driven, activist, independent girl. She's not one to take crap from anyone, and is loyal to her friends. I think Harry as HERO is harder to identify with as a romantic figure, but everyman Ron is a little easier for the guys (one reason why I really want him to come into his own, be someone important in his own right in Book 7) And, finally, as I've gotten off topic, and meandered all over the place... kids are smart. And books are entertainment. Anything can be read into anything - especially if you're looking for it. But give kids some credit to not be duped, and also to understand they're looking for what most of us are looking for - to be entertained. Not to find twisted possibilities. I kind've wish we could see a little bit more of EVERYTHING - relationships, minor characters... but choices are made. And then.... we analyze those choices to death!!!! :) And that's part of the fun. ~Prep0strus From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 23:39:51 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:39:51 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136136 >I vmonte wrote: If you recall Snape did not know that Quirrell was working for Voldemort during SS/PS. Voldemort kept Snape in the dark. Page 28, HBP, U.S. edition: "I think you wanted to know why I stood between the Dark Lord and the Sorcerer's Stone. That is easily answered. He did not know whether he could trust me. He thought, like you, that I had turned from faithful Death Eater to Dumbledore's stooge...As it was, I saw only greedy and unworthy Quirrell attempting to steal the stone and, I admit, I did all I could to thwart him." Remember Snape had a cushy and safe job at Hogwarts while the other DEs were stuck in Azkaban. Page 27 "I had a comfortable job that I preferred to a stint in Azkaban." houyhnhnm: These are somewhat circular arguments. You have to assume that Snape really is a Death Eater telling Bellatrix the truth in order to prove that he really is a Death Eater. If he's lying to her then we don't know whether he made the Quirrel/Voldemort connection or not. The following passage from PS/SS is suggestive, though ambiguous. "It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrel's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain shot across shot across the scar on Harry's forehead." vmonte responds: So you're not arguing that Voldemort did not tell Snape that he was attached to Q's head, your argument is that Snape figured that out-- and right at the beginning of school, the first night back no less! Did he forget to tell Dumbledore? Why bother setting up the traps for Voldemort? Why did he let Harry go face-to-face-to-face with LVQ? Seems like a lot of work went into protecting the stone, when all they had to do was fire Quirrell. If Snape did know that Voldemort was walking around the school during SS/PS wouldn't that go along with the idea that Snape is trying to bring down DD and Harry? >Mari: 2) Choosing to go after the trio to the shrieking shack, to protect them from someone he believed was in league with Voldemort, in PoA. houyhnhnm: Yes, it is a matter of interpretation. My interpretation is that Snape's motives are always mixed. He is still trying to prove he should have been Head Boy as much as he is trying to protect the school or its students, but there is little evidence in the text to prove or disprove this theory. Certainly, he shows no hesitation in going after the dangerous lunatic who *he* believes betrayed the Potters to Voldemort. vmonte responds: He is still trying to prove that he is head boy material? In his late thirties? How sad, yet probably true. This only confirms that he is only interested in himself, IMO. >>vmonte: Moody had already threatened to tell Dumbledore that Snape had it in for Harry (I don't think that Snape knew that Moody was Crouch Jr.). Snape probably felt that he had to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore. houyhnhnm: I don't even see a specious connection between these two occurrences. Snape's showing fudge the dark mark is one of the strongest pieces of evidence for Loyal Snape (I would not call him good). It was unnecessary and against Voldemort's interest for him to do so. vmonte: Funny how Snape is perceived as the master legimens/occlumens but not one of his defenders will claim that Snape was aware that Crouch Jr. was playing the part of Moody in GoF. Even with that extended moment on the stairs where they both looked at each other without saying a word. Nope, they were just having a staring contest. I guess Moody won, and Snape went to bed. 4) Alerting the order to what was going on in the Department of Mysteries. >>vmonte: He took his sweet time didn't he? Funny how he never shows up to anything. Where was he during the fight? Maybe he was afraid of blowing his DE cover you say? He's the Potions Master no? He's got all kinds of potions locked in his room doesn't he? And with all the polyjuice that seems to be floating around Hogwarts you would think that Snape would have some to spare for when he needs to go somewhere in disguise. But I guess not. houyhnhnm: I admit that the timing of the events at the ministry is ambiguous. There is just enough time for the DEs to have obtained the prophecy before the members of the order arrive, had Harry and the DAs not been so intrepid. On the other hand, if Snape really is a Death Eater knowing how important the prophecy is to Voldemort, it is hard to imagine that he would risk the failure of the mission. vmonte responds: Snape is not on DD or Voldemort's side. He's the Half-Blood Prince! A new breed of super villain!!! :) Harry - "The boy who lived" Snape - "The boy who never became head boy" Vivian From prep0strus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 23:40:16 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:40:16 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to > know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? > > Snapeophile What's Lee Jordan up to????? (and if you want a great idea, ask Marianne) Btw, the thing my exroommate and I came up with (animal science majors both) for the dementors grossed us both out and made us laugh as well... The book says that the reason there's so much MIST is because of the BREEDING. Now, if any of you know how frogs, or fish breed.... I'll stop it there, but EWWWWWWWWWWWW...... I'll never be able to see mist the same way again. ~Prep0strus From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 00:03:08 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:03:08 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136138 >1) Saving Harry's life in PS >vmonte: >If you recall Snape did not know that Quirrell was working for >Voldemort during SS/PS. Voldemort kept Snape in the dark. Mari again: Let me expand a bit. The fact that Snape saves Harry during the Quidditch match has nothing to do with quirrelmort and the stone. At this stage Snape has no idea that Harry would be able to stop Quirrell from getting the stone. Snape does not know that Harry is a threat to Voldemort's plans to get the stone. vmonte: Mari I'm not sure what you are saying here? Are you saying that Snape knew that Quirrell had Voldemort sticking out of his head? If Snape is on DD's side why would he keep this information to himself? >Mari: >2) Choosing to go after the trio to the shrieking shack, to protect >them from someone he believed to be in league with Voldemort, in PoA. >vmonte: >Well, this is a matter of interpretation. I see a teacher that is >more concerned with exacting revenge and getting accolades, than a >teacher who is worried about his students. Mari: It's precisely because I can't see Snape being that concerned about students that this action puzzles me. I totally agree that Snape was after accolades. Later on in my post I identified this as a characteristic of Snape's that is evident from what we know of him in the books so far. He craves admiration. Let's look at the sequence of events again: 1) Snape sees the trio (and Peter Pettigrew) sneak down to Hagrid's on the marauders map. 2) He sees Sirius and the other four go past the whomping willow to the Shrieking Shack. 3) Snape believes Sirius Black to be after Harry, and Lupin has forgotten to take his potion so will also possibly be dangerous. vmonte: If Snape's main focus is getting Sirius in this scene, and not Harry, it makes sense, no? Snape has a very old grudge against Sirius and he has just found a great opportunity to exact revenge. He's saving Harry for the big Voldemort face off. And would Snape really think that Sirius was a DE? Wouldn't he know if he was or wasn't? I mean since he (Snape) was one. And why does he scream at the children to stop talking before any of them have a chance to explain about Wormtail? Is it because he knows that Peter IS a DE? Mari: How could Snape have been blamed if Dumbledore thought that the Order (including Snape) did not know what was happening at the Department of Mysteries until it was too late? If Snape were just a death eater, why wouldn't he have done all he could to ensure that Voldemort got the prophecy? After all he is the one who told Voldemort about it in the first place! vmonte: Because Snape was trying to lure Dumbledore to the DoM. Again, Snape is not on either side. He is trying to destroy both sides. JMO From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 00:03:11 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:03:11 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: Based on JKR's interviews and the books so far, there is a LOT of ground to cover in book 7... I'm hoping most of them are tied up and it's a really long book. For starters, she needs to deal with: ** Lily's eyes - are we ever going to find out the significance? ** Sirius's mirror ? she SAID it would figure in, but not in the way we thought ** Ron & Hermione (SHIP) ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help Harry? ** Find and destroy ALL the Horcruxes (if Harry does find them, how on earth is he going to learn how to destroy them when you can't even find in the entire Hogwarts library what they even are??), find and destroy Voldemort! ** SNAPE???? Dumbledore's orders??? Truly ESE??? Something else??? We never DID find out why Dumbledore trusted him so much. ** Who is RAB? Regulus Black? Since we ALL called this one, could it be a red herring??? ** Who's the person to learn magic late in life? ** What becomes of the Malfoys? ** Harry & Ginny back together? ** Luna??? Is ANYTHING she says for real? ** Droobles Best Blowing Gum wrappers? Do the Longbottoms recover? Does Neville find the way? ** What happened to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia? ** What is Harry's other pet? Does he get Fawkes? ** Does someone get Bellatrix Black? I'd really like to see her bite the dust, personally. ** Dumbledore's portrait - I don't think it will be able to give Harry any useful advice, but I'm sure he will try to speak with it anyway. Allie ---------- Inge adds: ** What really happened in Godrics Hollow? ** Vampires? Gotta be more than Sanguini there. Just a little bite? ** Use of Metamorphmagus-skill? Otherwise, what a waste... ** Where's Ollivander? ** Unopened door at MOM? ** Percy... will he ever reunite with the Weasley's? Is there any chance Ron can ever accept Percy back in the family? ** What was with Grindlewald? My list could go on and on...... I don't want any unanswered questions by the end of book 7 .... yea right - I wish! From pkdawson at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 00:19:56 2005 From: pkdawson at gmail.com (Patrick Dawson) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:19:56 -0000 Subject: Order Member we haven't officially met In-Reply-To: <20050802201341.62272.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136141 > Guru wrote: > Besides, we need an explanation for the goats: Who are they, why is he > caring for them and what was the illegal spell that he was casting? I think a lot of people are reading *way* too much into what was just a subtle dirty joke for the older readers. If you didn't catch it, replace "goat" with "sheep". "I was quite proud of that clue. That is all that I am going to say. [Laughter]. Well yes, obviously. I like the goat clue?I sniggered to myself about that one." http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 00:23:52 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:23:52 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > houyhnhnm: > > Yes, it is a matter of interpretation. My interpretation is that > Snape's motives are always mixed. He is still trying to prove he > should have been Head Boy as much as he is trying to protect the > school or its students, but there is little evidence in the text to > prove or disprove this theory. Certainly, he shows no hesitation in > going after the dangerous lunatic who *he* believes betrayed the > Potters to Voldemort. > > vmonte responds: > He is still trying to prove that he is head boy material? In his late > thirties? How sad, yet probably true. This only confirms that he is > only interested in himself, IMO. > Okay, a show of hands. If he is truly ESE!Snape on the side of Voldemort, would he have taken the vow in the first place? pg 32 AE HBP "The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it" Narcissa continued, her eyes still closed. "He wishes none to know of the plan. It is...very secret. But--" "If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak," said Snape at once. "The Dark Lord's word is law." Oh reeeeeeally? Then if that's the case, and Snape believes it, then to take the vow and even talk about it is "breaking the law." In effect, Snape would be taking a vow to thwart Voldemort's revenge on Lucius. I don't call that being loyal. I call that Snape thinking with something else besides his brain. pg 34 Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking down at her tear stained face, he said slowly, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is DETERMINED (emphasis mine) that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy." So taking the Unbreakable Vow not only spared Draco, it caused Snape to leave his post at Hogwarts earlier than Voldemort intended. Even Bella is pulled in against her better judgment--actually she behaves like she is in shock--which may be a shrewd move on Snape's part to show her disloyal to Voldemort. pg 36 "Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow," he said quietly. "Perhaps your sister will consent to be our Bonder." Gotcha Bella. Cindy (who thinks Dumbledore is dead because Snape is an unsufferable know-it-all with no social skills whatsoever) From yodamarie78 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 22:44:38 2005 From: yodamarie78 at yahoo.com (Sara Dockery) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's comment - Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802224438.7658.qmail@web50910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136143 colebiancardi: I have read a lot of theories about the "next" horcrux on these boards. My bet is on the Special Services Award Shield that Tom Riddle won and at Hogwarts. Ron had to clean 50 times to get the slug slime off of it, when he was doing detention in CoS. It is personal and Voldemort likes the personal items, as well as *special* items as his horcruxes... Yoda: This is the best horcrux theory I've heard. I'm not sure about the Harry as Horcrux theory, it just doesn't seem right to me. I could see Harry maybe thinking that he is a horcrux and trying to sacrifice himself. Of course I could be eating my words in 2 years time. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aldhelm at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 00:51:54 2005 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:51:54 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136144 Just some comments and additions to Allie's and Inge's lists, since I've been making a tally of my own. Allie's list (excerpted), with comments: > ** Find and destroy ALL the Horcruxes (if Harry does find them, how > on earth is he going to learn how to destroy them when you can't > even find in the entire Hogwarts library what they even are??), find > and destroy Voldemort! Carin adds: The number of remaining Horcruxes was something that really worried me at the end of HBP, but my working theory is that the reason JKR left four to be destroyed is that would allow the trio plus Ginny each to be instrumental in figuring out and knocking off one of them, rather the way the HRH's special talents came into play in solving the puzzles in PS/SS. > ** Who's the person to learn magic late in life? > ** Droobles Best Blowing Gum wrappers? Do the Longbottoms > recover? Does Neville find the way? My sense from JKR's recent Leaky/Mugglenet interview was that this isa dead-end, plotwise. > ** Dumbledore's portrait - I don't think it will be able to give > Harry any useful advice, but I'm sure he will try to speak with it > anyway. Carin: I can imagine a short but poignant scene early in the next book with MM talks to DD's portrait. And Inge's additions: > > ** Use of Metamorphmagus-skill? Otherwise, what a waste... Carin: Relatedly, I am not at all persuaded that we've had a full and accurate accounting of what was up with Tonks this year. Changing Patronuses ought to be a lot more serious than Lupin makes out, especially if uniquely-identifiable Patronuses are such an important security feature of the Order's communication system. Finally, Carin's additions to the to-be-resolved list: ** Will Harry really not return to Hogwarts? (Actually, I'm fully prepared for him not to, because I think the Hogwarts routines are pretty well played out.) ** Will the Order have a regular meeting place? For that matter, will we see it operating in an Order-ly way again? ** What's up with Scrimgeour? ** How will Wormtail and his life debt to Harry play out? ** Are we going to have a positive ID of Aberforth in the book, apart from JKR's confirmation in interview that he's the barman? ** There are issues around the use of dark spells and unforgivable curses by not-wholly- evil characters. Draco's failure with the AK keeps the problem in the front of our minds as we leave HBP. I was puzzled, too, that Harry's use of Sectumsempra was treated rather casually - that is, it's used as a plot device in making the association between Snape and HBP, but the implications are not explored. I'm going to have to think more about this on a re-read. ** Ginny is due to do some really spectacular magic (well beyond the bat-bogey level). ** And of course, that ol' gleam o' triumph. As Herself has said, "That's still enormously significant. And let's face it, I haven't told you that much is enormously significant, so you can let your imaginations run free there." Carin From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 01:04:25 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803010425.25029.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136145 John Kearns wrote: 3) There is a fundamental difference between the soul fragments contained in Horcruxes and the original soul: Horcruxes can be destroyed, but as long as they still exist, the original soul cannot be. This is the only way it makes sense - we /know/ Horcruxes can be destroyed, and we know that killing Voldemort himself must come last, and that he survived the AK. Juli: I don't understand this sentence: "but as long as they still exist, the original soul cannot be." Isn't there a word missing, the word Die/killed/vanished at the end? the original soul cannot be killed? 4) You can't go on making Horcruxes forever. Slughorn is astonished at the idea of making even more than one, and Dumbledore says that terrible damage is done to the soul every time one is made. It's logical that at some point, you've got to stop. Juli: his plan was to make 7 (including himself), and that's what he did, if 9 was the magical number, he may have done 9, but he wanted 7, that's what he did. I think he doesn't care so much about his soul that he wouldn't kill anymore to keep it safe, he's kept on killing, and he will, but he's got all the horcruxes he needs. Now, the three big questions: 1) What are the Horcruxes, and is Harry one of them? -One is the diary, now destroyed -Two is the ring, also destroyed -Three is the locket, which R.A.B. planned to destroy. Most people think that this is Regulus and that the locket was the one in Grimmauld Place, now held by Kreacher or Mundungus, but we don't know. Juli: I think RAB (whoever it is) also destroyed the locket, maybe the locket is still around, but the soul it had is long gone. -Four is almost certainly Hufflepuff's cup. -Five is a huge question mark, even to Dumbledore. He suspects it might be an unknown artifact of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's, but that's not a lot to go on. Juli: Something Ravenclaw's, I trust Dumbledore when he says the only remaining item of Gryffindor is safe. The question is, what it is???? -Six is somewhat questionable, but Dumbledore is pretty sure it is Nagini. Juli: I'm pretty sure it's Nagini -I do not think Harry is a Horcrux. Juli: YEP, I agree, there isn't a chance Harry's a Horcrux, not even an unintentional (isn't there a spell to create the Horcrux? how could he cast the spell without knowing?) -The most believable theories I've seen on alternative objects for Horcruxes are the obvious artifacts at Hogwarts: one of Riddle's trophies, Gryffindor's sword, the sorting hat. I have two problems with these theories, though. First, when would Voldemort have killed someone while having any of these objects available? Second and more importantly, even the diary - which Dumbledore said Voldemort was reckless with - was far better protected than any of these. Thinking of the protections on the ring and the locket, I find it hard to believe that Riddle would have made something out in the open into a Horcrux. Juli: Even if Hogwarts meant a lot to Tom Riddle, he never commited murder there (Myrtle was killed by the basilisk, not by Tom), I'm sure when he returned to ask for a job Dumbledore kept an eye on him from the moment he entered Hogwarts. -"Dumbledore's shrewd ideas usually turn out to be accurate (Lupin, OP5)." Juli: JKR also said pretty much the same thing in the inteview with TLC and MN In this case, I've heard many excellent suggestions from others regarding places important to Voldemort: -Somewhere in Hogwarts. I'm sure this led to the speculation about the trophies and such, but I think it's much more likely it would be hidden someplace like the Chamber of Secrets. Likelihood: Very high Juli: I don't think so, the CoS was about his first Horcrux, the Diary, he wouldn't put 2 of them in the same place. I know the diary wasn't in the CoS, but it showed how to get there, so if anyone found it then he/she would also get the Horcrux? don't think so -The Riddle house. We already know it's important to him, and he did store one in his mother's house. Likelihood: Very high Juli: I agree with you there, I think he may still use that old house as his headquarters, so Nagini could still be there. Of course it would be protected with a zillion charms (like 12GP) -The orphanage. Seems like a logical place, but harder to do. Likelihood: Medium Juli: I think the likehood is VERY LOW, he hated that place, why would he return there? -Borgin and Burke's. Also more difficult, and probably not as imporant to Riddle. Likelihood: Medium Juli: Low. He only worked there to get his hands on the treasures. -A safe at Gringott's. Doesn't really fit the criteria we've seen so far. Likelihood: Low -Azkaban. Why? Likelihood: Very Low -That was all of the places I noticed - any other ideas? Juli: Unfortunately I don't have many ideas, maybe Knockturn alley? I don't know. 3) Finally, When were the Horcruxes created, and who was killed in the process? Juli: Ring: Morfin Gaunt Locket: The Riddle family (dad, grand parents) Nagini: the old man (the gardener at the Riddle house) The others? who knows! The only people Voldemort has certainly killed are: Lily, James, Frank Bryce, and Dorcas Meadowes. So it's certainly frivolous to make any new conjectures based on that. Juli: who's Dorcas Meadowes? I don't remember him PS. nice summary!! Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 01:05:52 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:05:52 -0000 Subject: Snape and AK curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136146 Maybe this has been addressed already (I have been having a heck of a time catching up on the posts as I just finished reading HBP). Snape used the AK curse on DD. Why? DD was near death, slipping along the tower, with no wand. All Snape had to do was use a spell to fling him off the tower. It is very unlikely someone could survive such a fall, much less one in DD's condition. Why *that* particular curse? Snape used an unforgivable curse. Even if he is on the good side, he will most likely face prison for using that particular curse, if he survives and the good side wins. Prison was the one thing he kept mentioning in Chp. 2 that he was afraid to face. He has now doomed himself to such a fate. The only reason I can think of is that he didn't care, because he actually *is* working for Voldemort. Snape does not strike me as a noble person in any way. His character flaws have been pointed out in other posts, and I agree with what has been said. I think the conversation/argument with DD was about Snape continuing to act as a spy. He was afraid of Voldemort because Voldemort was becoming too powerful, and I think he may have been giving DD some excuse why he wanted out. I think Snape *is* a coward; someone who follows the winning side. Any comments? Cindy From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 01:35:28 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:35:28 -0000 Subject: Snape and AK curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: SNIP Snape does not strike me as a noble person in any way. His character flaws have been pointed out in other posts, and I agree with what has been said. I think the conversation/argument with DD was about Snape continuing to act as a spy. He was afraid of Voldemort because Voldemort was becoming too powerful, and I think he may have been giving DD some excuse why he wanted out. I think Snape *is* a coward; someone who follows the winning side. Any comments? Cindy ---- Short comment. Im afraid there's no cure for me. Rowling could tell me in the final chapter of book 7: "...and that was the end of the ever so truely evil Severus Snape. He was a coward to the end and he got what he deserved...." - and I would STILL find ways to defend him and still find ways to explain to myself that Rowling made a mistake there - that she didn't really *know* Snape.... he he! So - no point in me posting any more to good!snape vs evil!snape because there's just no way anyone (Rowling included) who can convince me that Severus is a coward or isn't on the good side. Pathetic? Me? Obviously. And also suffering from the attracted-to-bad- boy-syndrome - because I can easily agree with those who find Snape, Draco and Sirius interesting AND attractive characters :-) From adam at adampozek.com Wed Aug 3 00:04:53 2005 From: adam at adampozek.com (Adam C. Pozek) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:04:53 -0400 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136148 Del wrote: "4. JKR knows she's writing, among other people, for young people who have an immature view of love and romance. That's why I expected her to *explain* what a happy and healthy relationship is, instead of assuming that all her readers would know. JKR *knows* that way too many girls have an unhealthy interest in Draco for example. So she knows that many young girls and boys)*cannot* be trusted to know what a healthy relationship is like. So her not explaining (in the book) *why* Ginny and Harry's romance is a good and healthy one is silly, a lost opportunity, and IMO even dangerous." Sienna wrote: "you raise some good points regarding the different ways in which adults and children respond to the text. However, much of the problem I have with H/G is for precisely this reason. Children's literature, while useful in feeding young imaginations, also has a socialising role to play. It's an aspect of the genre that is difficult to come to terms with (as it suggests subtly manipulative subtext), but it is an utterly important one to acknowledge. Within this context, the potrayal of relationships between boys and girls, and men and women, in the text comes with awesome responsibility." And now for my (Adam's) comments: I find the issue of JKR's responsibility as an author to be interesting. I don't recall the source (I think it was the A&E Biography from 2003), but JKR acknowledged the criticism for the darkening, violent depictions in her stories. She went on to say that she is writing these stories for herself and that she is not going to compromise her vision because someone might be offended. IMO, the only possible responsibility an author has is to not mislead readers about the content of his/her work. Even then, I think this is more the responsibility of the publisher than the author. I grow weary of blaming the creator of an artistic work, whether literature, music, painting, etc. for the negative impact that work might have on children. It is squarely the responsibility of parents to monitor the sources of their children's entertainment. Parents should not be leaving kids to read and interpret anything on their own without the appropriate guidance. If a child's morality or determination of the appropriateness of a relationship is based on the Harry Potter books, that child and his or her parents have a much larger problem. Besides, if we're going to discuss the effects of pop culture on child development, I can think of cartoons that depict a much more warped view of interpersonal relationships. Why should JKR be slammed for showing a romantic relationship between 2 teenagers? Harry was always respectful of Ginny. There is no mention of him forcing himself on her or doing anything inappropriate. Despite what any of us thinks about whether the ship should/should not have been more fully developed in text, I simply do not see anything unhealthy about the depiction. Maybe what some imagine is going behind the scenes is unhealthy, but I do not see how someone's imagination is the fault of the author. Adam C. Pozek Alpharetta, GA, USA adam at adampozek.com www.adampozek.com From wintryshowers at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 00:16:17 2005 From: wintryshowers at yahoo.com (wintryshowers) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:16:17 -0000 Subject: horcruxes - how do we know there are only four left? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136149 allies426 wrote: > Horcrux recap: > > 1. Riddle's diary (destroyed) > 2. Slytherin's ring (destroyed) > 3. Locket - missing > 4. Cup - never located > 5. Ravenclaw/Gryffindor artifact - unknown (Hat, Sword, Phoenix?) > 6. Nagini (suspected) - whereabouts unknown > 7. Piece that is still within Voldemort > (NO WAY can one of the Horcrux's be Harry, IMO, why try to kill > him so many times if he were a horcrux???) > > So after his Horcruxes were reduced in number, what if Voldemort > created another one, to re-create seven? Any offscreen murder > could have been used to do it. I can envision a scenario where a > triumphant Harry confronts Voldemort, thinking he has destroyed > all of the Horcruxes, only for Voldemort to say, "See, you stupid > boy? Here is my 7th Horcrux, the crumple-horned snorkack of > Merlin!" (or something similarly obscure and unpredictable) Good thought. I agree that Harry is unlikely to be a horcrux, in fact it seems much more probable to me that, by murdering Harry, LV had planned to create a new one - or to replace one. I could imagine that only after his resurrection, LV had the chance to replace the diary-horcrux, although he had certainly been informed earlier about it. Moreover, I reckon, only then did he notice that another horcrux was missing, namely the one in the lake, so he had actually two to replace. I don't believe that one had been stolen before his LV's "death", because I guess he would have checked them regularly (the boat was meant for himself after all, as a means of transport) and found out it was missing. (So in my opinion, the thief must be someone who was still alive in HP 5 or even HP 6. It doesn't seem completely unlikely to me that the R.A.B. message meant "Regards, Amelia Bones". I wouldn't put that past the author.) That would leave him to have to create two new horcruxes, and I believe, with the murder-part, he didn't have to wait till after his complete resurrection. Maybe that was the reason for the murder of the old man in the Riddle House in HP 4, his first murder for 13 years. I think LV would have chosen something of his father as a horcrux, first because - although I'm afraid he would disagree with me and never admit it, probably cursing me for suggesting it - he's still longing for a kind of home, for roots and family bonds. Even when speaking to Harry in HP4 at the graveyard, he gets reminiscient, and only after a while he corrects himself and says the DE were his true family. And secondly, I think it would be important of him to show that LV finally conquered Tom Riddle, by putting a part of his soul in something important to his father, who had always refused him as a child. So it should be something Tom Riddle sr. used to be very fond of and the loss of which to a wizard would deeply offend him. In general, LV only seems to murder if "necessary" in his opinion, not out of anger or enjoyment like many of his DE (not meant as defence!) After all, twice he tells people to "stand aside", whom he could easily kill (Lily, maybe he told that to James, too), or whom he could have knocked out with a rather harmless spell (Hagrid). That suggest he only kills when working on a new horcrux. So the old man could have served the purpose of replacing the diary, and Amelia Bones the second horcrux in the lake. Because the thief would have certainly destroyed it, therefore I think any search would be useless. Susan From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 00:17:46 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Harry Drink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803001747.42275.qmail@web33312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136150 Jmoses: > I was just wondering if I was the only one who questions why Harry > drank the FF potion. He has been tricked by people in disquise > before, and I thought he would be a little more careful. Cat: You're right. But sometimes writers make their characters do things that don't make sense to serve the plot. If Harry hadn't drank the FF potion, he probably wouldn't have been able to get the memory he needed from Slughorn. It's fiction. Cat From rt11guru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 23:30:02 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802233002.65367.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136151 allies426 wrote: > Based on JKR's interviews and the books so far, there is a LOT of > ground to cover in book 7... > Will there be room for anything else in the story? I can just see > the table of contents, lol. Chapter 1: The Real Severus Snape. > Chapter 2: RAB Revealed. Chapter 3: The Longbottoms' Surprise. > Chapter 4: Mimbulus Mumbilio. Comments? More loose ends? Will Crookshanks ever get a moment in the spotlight? Offing Wormtail perhaps? Will Percy redeem himself? Where are the Snowdons of yesteryear? (Oops, wrong book.) Guru From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 02:14:13 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:14:13 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136152 Adam: I find the issue of JKR's responsibility as an author to be interesting. I don't recall the source (I think it was the A&E Biography from 2003), but JKR acknowledged the criticism for the darkening, violent depictions in her stories. She went on to say that she is writing these stories for herself and that she is not going to compromise her vision because someone might be offended. IMO, the only possible responsibility an author has is to not mislead readers about the content of his/her work. Even then, I think this is more the responsibility of the publisher than the author. I grow weary of blaming the creator of an artistic work, whether literature, music, painting, etc. for the negative impact that work might have on children. Now me: Adam, this is indeed a complex issue and more complex I think than what Rowling herself would accept (which is where my problem starts). There is a fair amount of validity in what you say here but at the same time the reality *also* is that a well-loved author such as JK Rowling *does* contribute to the collective psychology of young people, regardless of whether she accepts the responsibility that comes with that or not. Yes, she has the right to write the books exactly as she wants to and she *was* very open about her intentions regarding the violence in the books. However, it is also true that regardless of the fact that she is writing for herself, she is also writing for legions of young children. If she wishes to blank them out in order to finish her work without pressure, that is her prerogative, but that doesn't mean they've gone away or that her responsibility to them is any less because she doesn't acknowledge it. What it does mean, is that it falls upon fans like us to be critical of the subtextual messages behind the text (conscious or unconscious) because the author herself is not paying any attention to them. But yes, I agree, she does share that responsibility with parents and publishers, teachers and the media. Adam: Besides, if we're going to discuss the effects of pop culture on child development, I can think of cartoons that depict a much more warped view of interpersonal relationships. Why should JKR be slammed for showing a romantic relationship between 2 teenagers? Harry was always respectful of Ginny. There is no mention of him forcing himself on her or doing anything inappropriate. Despite what any of us thinks about whether the ship should/should not have been more fully developed in text, I simply do not see anything unhealthy about the depiction. Maybe what some imagine is going behind the scenes is unhealthy, but I do not see how someone's imagination is the fault of the author. Now me: I actually think there is a fair bit to be said against the way male/ female relationships are portrayed in general in the HP series but that is another post (and a long one at that). Realistic some may think them but almost all the romantic relationships in the HP universe are stereotypes of one sort or another (IMO). They subvert nothing, challenge nothing and ultimately, for all the strength in the female characters, paint a very comfortable patriarchal view of the world. And it disappoints me because I think she had the ability to do better. JMO, as always. Sienna From sunnylove0 at aol.com Wed Aug 3 02:18:25 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:18:25 EDT Subject: Prophecy # 1: Wait A Second Message-ID: <13e.187701bc.30218371@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136153 We hear the story of someone overhearing Trelawney's first prophecy from Dumbledore in OOP (Chapter 37): "My---our---one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way through the prophecy and thrown from the building." But this is directly contradicted (well, not really, but Dumbledore is skirting the issue again anyway, I think) by Trelawney's evidence in HBP ( Chapter 25, italics mine): "Dumbledore did the courtesy of calling upon me in my room. He questioned me....I must confess that, at first, I thought he seemed ill disposed toward divination...and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day, but then..." And now Harry was paying attention properly for the first time, for he knew what had happened then: Professor Trelawney had made the prophecy that had altered the course of his whole life, the prophecy about him and Voldemort. "...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!" "What?" "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape..." ******************** Harry immediately flies off the handle about this, as I would do in his place. But he doesn't catch the point. Snape did not leave that hallway until the entire prophecy was made. Trelawney isn't going to wake up mid-sentence and fall into her trance again. Take a look at the quotes of Trelawney's prophecies in POA and OOP, too. Not only in italics, but in caps-lock and in a voice described as harsh. Sibyl is not being quiet here. (Maybe Caps-Lock! Harry has a point we weren't thinking of). I'm definitely betting for Aberforth Dumbledore as the Order member we need to meet. Thoughts, anyone? Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 02:28:11 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:28:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136154 > lealess: > > Let's assume Snape set out to eliminate the Big Two, but had to wait > until Dumbledore was weak enough and Harry was trained enough to take > on Voldemort. > > Is Snape acting as though he is actually trying to take over the > wizarding world? Alla: I am in agreement with Salit . I think that Snape is out for himself. I think that what matters the most is whether Snape BELIEVES and WANTS to take Voldemort's place, NOT whether his ambitions are realistic ( hopefully they are not). Lealess: Does he > seem to be anticipating the day he faces Potter? He's been pretty > easy on him so far, not as psychologically intimidating as I would be > if I wanted to throw an opponent off guard for a future fight. > > Alla: I think that Snape severely underestimates Harry. He does not believe that Harry has the power to defeat Dark Lord, but just in case Snape is perfectly willing to let Harry and Voldie to face each other and then to kill the winner and take his place. See, I share Dan's theory that Snape knows second part of the prohecy somehow. THAT I believe is the reason that Snape did not kill Harry in HBP. Potter is for Dark Lord or Dark Lord is for Potter. :-) Lealess: I can see where eliminating the Big Two (and a Half, counting Harry) > would allow Snape to lead a peaceful life, but... all evidence points > to Snape being someone who ultimately lets others determine the > course of their own lives, hoping they will leave him the hell > alone. I do not see him as a ruler, even with the Half-Blood Prince > moniker. > Alla: I don't see him as a ruler, but I most definitely see him as someone who has delusions of grandeur. The man in his late thirties screams " I , half blood prince". Considering the fact that it was the name he created for himself as a child, I find it pretty pathetic,to put it mildly. Now, I was looking for this quote for some time and I finally found it. It was cited here few months ago and maybe even earlier, but I could not find the post, so I just searched the Internet. This is Alan Rickman's quote about Snape. No, I am not asking anybody to take it as canon, but if JKR indeed told him a few things about Snape, which we are not privy too yet, I think it makes whole lot of sense especially in light of HBP. "From Unreel Magazine: Q: Can you tell us a little about your character, Professor Snape? AR: Well, he's a Professor of Potions and the current head of Slytherin at Hogwarts-the school of wizardry that Harry attends, but he harbors a secret ambition to be a Professor of Dark Arts. He isn't that taken with Harry, though, probably because he finds him a little too popular for a first year pupil, I suppose. I think at heart, Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he's always longing to be something else that people would really respect, like a black magician, not just a school master. That's why he envies the more popular and sucessful boys like Harry. He does have his positive side, though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side, he doesn't let it worry him too much." Hmm, he ls always longing to be something else that people would really respect, like a black magician... Does not sound to me as a person, who just wants to lead peaceful life. Just my opinion, Alla. From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 02:28:31 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:28:31 -0000 Subject: Ghouls and Inferi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136155 Webster's dictionary says a ghoul is a legendary evil being that robs graves and feeds on corpses. Dumbledore says that inferi are corpses -- dead bodies that have been bewitched to do a Dark wizard's bidding. It looks like the two aren't the same. But I noticed something interesting in COS. Hermione says that in Gadding with Ghouls, Gilderoy Lockhart wrote about slow-acting venoms. (According to Hermione, slow-acting venoms are also mentioned in Moste Potente potions.) I wonder if the potion that Dumbledore drank contained a slow-acting venom. Ghouls, slow-acting venoms -- inferi, a slow-acting potion. Maybe they aren't related, but I thought I'd throw the thought out there and see if anybody sees anything significant. Merrylinks From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 3 02:45:31 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:45:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F02FCB.9020104@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136156 allies426 wrote: > Based on JKR's interviews and the books so far, there is a LOT of > ground to cover in book 7... I'm hoping most of them are tied up > and it's a really long book. For starters, she needs to deal with: > > ** Lily's eyes - are we ever going to find out the significance? > ** Sirius's mirror she SAID it would figure in, but not in the > way we thought > ** Ron & Hermione (SHIP) > ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help > Harry? > ** Find and destroy ALL the Horcruxes (if Harry does find them, how > on earth is he going to learn how to destroy them when you can't > even find in the entire Hogwarts library what they even are??), find > and destroy Voldemort! > ** SNAPE???? Dumbledore's orders??? Truly ESE??? Something > else??? We never DID find out why Dumbledore trusted him so much. > ** Who is RAB? Regulus Black? Since we ALL called this one, could > it be a red herring??? > ** Who's the person to learn magic late in life? > ** What becomes of the Malfoys? > ** Harry & Ginny back together? > ** Luna??? Is ANYTHING she says for real? > ** Droobles Best Blowing Gum wrappers? Do the Longbottoms > recover? Does Neville find the way? > ** What happened to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia? > ** What is Harry's other pet? Does he get Fawkes? > ** Does someone get Bellatrix Black? I'd really like to see her > bite the dust, personally. > ** Dumbledore's portrait - I don't think it will be able to give > Harry any useful advice, but I'm sure he will try to speak with it > anyway. > Allie Kathy adds: **Who is Florence and who was she kissing? **What happens to Percy? **Where did Fawkes go? **Does Dobby follow Harry? **Where is Dumbledore's pensieve? **Is the Unbreakable Vow now satisfied? **Where is the Order headquarters now? **What is Snape's patronus? **Where is Ollivander and Fortesque? **Are Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance really dead? ** Why was the bottle of wine at Spinner's End dusty and why was the bottle of mead that Dumbledore conjured at Dursleys' also dusty? Is this a hint? Anything else??? KJ From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 02:41:12 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:41:12 -0000 Subject: Ghouls and Inferi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136157 Mt3t3l1 wrote: > Ghouls, slow-acting venoms -- inferi, a slow-acting potion. Maybe > they aren't related, but I thought I'd throw the thought out there > and see if anybody sees anything significant. Hi. First post in the group, but I've been following the HBP debate. A slow-acting potion or slow-acting venom which might change a perfectly good live individual into an Inferus (sing.?) could account for the death of Regulus Black and the disappearance of his body. The bodies in the lake had to come from somewhere. Regulus is said to have lived for three days before he was killed. That's slow-acting enough to make him a candidate, IMO, for a new body in the lake. It could also account for the stress in HBP on poisons that have no antidote. If someone turned into an Inferus (?), would they be immediately animated to go to a specific place so they could all attack together when the time arrived? Cerid. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:01:32 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:01:32 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136158 Valky wrote: > > Given this, it is likely that when Dumbledore and Snape argued in the forest Dumbledore was hoping for Snape to confess his UV, DD never > directly asks these things, as we know. It was probably something > like, "Is there something you wish to tell me Severus..." But in any case Snape accuses Dumbledore of taking something > for granted and says he wants out, so both lead to the same thing, > Dumbledores massive brainpower was accumulating plenty of evidence > about Snape and he *made* Snape go through with it even though he > *did* know there was something else to it, even though Snape, the > Snape he trusted and believed was loyal, didn't want to stick around > for it. Dumbledore continues to say I trust Severus completely, even > after SS says he wants out when DD prods him to confess his UV. > > Also Hagrid says that Dumbledore was angry with Snape, but he doesn't tell us Dumbledore's actual angry words. Could they be, "You will do as you have promised, Severus." And while Snape thought Dumbledore was talking about the promise he had made to DD, Dumbledore knew that he, himself, was actually talking about the Unbreakable Vow. Carol responds: It seems certain to me that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow. First, he is not surprised when Harry mentions it, indicating that Snape has already told him about his confrontation with Draco. Second, Dumbledore knows that Draco has been trying to kill him all year. He has not suspected anyone but Draco or been misled as to Draco's intended victim. He also knows or suspects that Draco has an accomplice outside Hogwarts, information that could be deduced from what Snape (or Harry) told him. Snape's conversation with Draco occurs between the necklace incident and the poisoned mead (a flawed plan that is probably already in motion since it's christmas time and the mead is supposed to be a Christmas present). Almost certainly Snape is following Dumbledore's orders in speaking to Draco, not acting on his own because of the vow. Certainly he is not doing it because he wants to steal Draco's "glory." His idea of "helping" Draco, up to that point, has been to put his two accomplices in detention. Now he is forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct action. At any rate, Draco's party crashing gives him an opportunity that can't be passed up. When Harry tells Dumbledore about this conversation, Dumbledore is not only not surprised, he tells Harry that it's likely he understands more from it than Harry does, a statement that the reader ought also to consider. In the unlikely event that Dumbledore has not already heard this story from Snape, or has heard a different version from Snape, he would certainly question him and find out the truth about the Unbreakable Vow. You don't find out that a member of your staff has taken a vow that will result in his death if it's broken and ignore that information. So Dumbledore knows, at the very least, that Draco is trying to kill him and that Snape has taken an Unbreakable Vow to help and protect him. Surely Dumbledore knows, even without the being told the third clause, that "help" was intended by Narcissa to mean "help Draco kill Dumbledore." Yet he continues to trust Snape. Conclusion: Snape has already told him exactly what Harry has told him, he knows exactly the terrible bind that Snape has placed him in, and he knows that Snape's definition of "help" differs from Narcissa's. As for "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but--" we don't even need the "but" to know that this statement is true. The other option is "Dumbledore has told me to watch you," which Snape knows would be greeted by Draco with the utmost contempt. He would regard Snape as Dumbledore's lap dog rather than a double agent trying to rob Draco of his "glory." Better to let Draco continue to think that Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore is all an act. Snape tries a variety of tactics in this conversation, warning Draco DE to DE that he has made an elementary mistake and is behaving like an amateur (which leads to Draco's resentment); expressing concern for Draco's (and Crabbe's and Goyle's) education (which leads to Draco's contemptuous remark that DADA is a farce--"as if *we* need to be protected from the Dark arts!"); Legilimency (which leads to Draco's clumsy and obvious attempt at Occlumency); the question, "What are you trying to hide from *your* master?" which leads to the disrepectful answer that he's trying to hide it from Snape (for the entirely wrong reason already cited, that Snape wants to steal the infamy he mistakes for "glory"). Snape then tries the confidential and truthful statement, sotto voce, "I'm trying to help you, Draco. I've made an Unbreakable Vow to help and protect you." Unfortunately for all concerned, Draco is supremely unconcerned that Snape has put his life on the line. Perhaps he doesn't know what an Unbreakable Vow is; more likely he doesn't care about anyone's predicament but his own. Realizing that the interview is going nowhere, Snape tries one last tactic, expressing understanding for Draco's feelings about his father, which leads to Draco storming out the door. The interview has been a fiasco. There is no point in making a second attempt. No doubt Snape has told Dumbledore exactly this. "I don't know what he's doing. He won't talk to me. I've lost my influence over him. Even mentioning the Unbreakable Vow didn't do any good. There's nothing I can say or do to stop him." It's possible, too, that Snape is afraid that trying to stop him will make matters worse instead of better, in part because of the conflict between his idea of helping Draco (preventing him from doing the deed) and Narcissa's idea of "help" (assisting him). Surely he could have pushed past Draco's easily detectable attempt at Occlumency, but he doesn't do it, either because he doesn't want to further alienate the already uncooperative Draco and arouse his suspicions that Snape is planning to tell Dumbledore what he found out, or because he is afraid that if he finds out what Draco is doing, he'll be forced by the vow to aid him. I think it's primarily the second reason. Snape's row with Dumbledore in the forest (where they won't be overheard by the portraits) occurs after Draco's second bungled attempt to kill Dumbledore backfires. Snape has already told Draco not to act like an amateur with clumsy efforts that can go wrong and get him expelled--and perhaps those words had an effect because the poisoned mead is the last attempt of this sort--but Snape knows that his influence on Draco is gone. He can no longer help Draco by putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention. It would be too obvious a tactic. He can't even put Draco himself in detention, which would violate the vow by openly hindering him. No wonder he explodes and tells Dumbledore that he takes too much for granted and that he, Snape, doesn't want to do it any more. He's exasperated because his efforts to stop Draco have been useless and he sees no point in continuing them. In fact, he may be afraid that they'll make matters even worse. I think he wants to act as if nothing is happening, just teach his classes and mark his essays, counting on Draco's ineptitude and Dumbledore's defenses of the castle, hoping against hope that nothing will happen, that he'll never have to kill Dumbledore because Draco will never succeed in doing what he has to do. But in any case, I think that what Snape doesn't want to do any more has nothing to do with teaching DADA or staying at Hogwarts. It has to do with continuing his futile efforts to deal with Draco. I think Dumbledore reminds him that he must at least keep an eye on Draco, perhaps to see where he's going and who his accomplices are. Quite possibly he deduces, being Snape, that the little girls reluctantly following Draco are a poly-juiced Crabbe and Goyle and that he reports this information. We don't know. But that he (grudgingly) agrees to follow Draco is shown by his being right at hand when Moaning Myrtle screams "Murder in the bathroom!" At that point Snape almost certainly realizes that Dumbledore is right. Had he not been following Draco, Draco would have died--and so would Snape, for having broken the provision of his vow that requires him to protect Draco. I almost wish, for Snape's sake and Dumbledore's, that he had done so. He might not have died redeemed, but he would not have the terrible sin of Dumbledore's death splitting and tainting his soul. And Dumbledore would have died in any case, since only Snape could save him. (I say "almost wish" because I still have hope that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and will somehow help Harry in Book 7.) Carol, who sees Snape as trapped rather than evil in HBP From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 3 03:08:19 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:08:19 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IER1bWJsZWRvcmWScyBmbGF3ZWQgcGxhbg==?= References: Message-ID: <42F03523.000019.01324@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 136159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Please ignore my previous message, it was sent in error > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" Wrote > > > Dumbledore *sacrificing* his life > > is completely in character for me. > > But a pointless sacrifice was not in character and Dumbledore's death > accomplished nothing, in fact it was a disaster because now the most > powerful weapon the good guys had (with the possible exception of > Harry) is gone. Hickengruendler: But it won't be pointless, if Dumbledore was going to die from the Potion he drank anyway. It is mentioned in the book, that there are Potions for which no antidote exists, therefore it should not have been ruled out that Dumbledore *knew* his days were numbered. And in this case the sacrifice makes sense, because otherwise Snape would have died as well (see the Unbreakable Vow). And in this case the Order would have lost two powerful weapons. In this special case, the sacrifice would have made sense. And Donna comments: And LV can't take credit for DD's death. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Wed Aug 3 03:19:04 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:19:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] re:harry/ginny Message-ID: <55.787b3700.302191a8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136160 I never really intended to make the impression that some people have valid comments. What I meant to say was that jkr didn't want a 1000 page book. How some people interpret what she wrote will always be different. Some people will look at one thing and say something and someone else will read and see something different. Take shakespear's taming of the shrew, there is a tv show called degrassi:the next generation a canadian show, that is shown on a channel called the n. during an episode the kids had to take a scene from the play taming of the shrew and modernize it. one pair depicted it as almost an abused spouse scene, where the guy is trying to control the woman through power and abuse. I've personally never saw taming of the shrew that way. but I can see how someone might. So I'm not disagreeing with how someone views something, I'm just tied all everyone yelling at everyone else, well I don't see it that way and all that. A few people are trying to point out that they can see the romance and here are their point of view and people are shutting them down. ' I'm also tired of people not responding to my posts are giving me credit when I come up with an idea or a comment first. I may not always be able to give credit to someone personally but I try. And I also try not to rehash the same comment over and over and over. And I never she was writing the books perfectly. When I was reading the book, I almost thought I was hallucinating because I kept thinking, damn it someone on the list predicted that this would happen. In my opinion, she either a) is becomming predictable or b)reads this list way too much. That being said I still enjoyed the book very much. Ali, thanks for replying to my post, and I don't care if you were ranting. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:21:06 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:21:06 -0000 Subject: Killing Snape. Who will do it? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136161 If this is the classic hero story that many here and JKR herself say that it is, then we have a problem with Snape, whether he is good or evil. The classic story line: Mentor dies so hero can go on alone. Coming of age story: Hero must do it himself. The Evil One in the story is LV. The last battle must be between Harry and LV. Harry must face him alone. Problem with Snape: If Snape is truly Evil then he is now more evil that LV. LV seems in second place as a villain now and that just can't be. If Snape is good, then Harry will still have an Adult helping him, he will not be doing it alone. If Snape does something even somewhat heroic at this point Snape will seem to be a Hero and could overshadow Harry and THAT can not happen. SO Snape good or evil, we will have to KILL HIM off early in book 7. There is no other way. He is getting in the way of our Hero vanquishing the Dark Lord. So who will do it? Options: 1. Lucius finds Snape with Narcissa and kills him in a fit of rage. NO. This will not happen, because this is a children's book. 2. Bella is jealous of being in second place as Snape is now LV's favorite. She can not bear this and kills Snape. Problem here is that LV is not going to like that very much. Maybe she can convince LV that Snape is really still working for DD, but that is unlikely. 3. Snape is depressed, guilty (fill in the blank with another word if you wish) and he kills himself. This would make his Judas to DD's Christ. Could work, but still not likely. 4. A member of the Order kills him. Lupin? Harry can not kill Snape, because even Snape knows that Harry can not and will not, and MUST NOT do an AK. So we can rule that option out. What do you think?? Let the debates begin. Tonks_op From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:25:40 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:25:40 -0000 Subject: Snape and AK curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136162 "Cindy" wrote: > Maybe this has been addressed already (I have been having a heck of a > time catching up on the posts as I just finished reading HBP). > > Snape used the AK curse on DD. Why? DD was near death, slipping > along the tower, with no wand. All Snape had to do was use a spell > to fling him off the tower. It is very unlikely someone could > survive such a fall, much less one in DD's condition. Why *that* > particular curse? zgirnius: Hi Cindy, hope you enjoyed the book! There are theories, in assorted posts from the last 2 weeks, about this. The ones I can remember are: 1) Yours, nothing wrong with yours, and your view is shared by others, that Snape did it because he's loyal to Voldemort, or alternatively a deeply evil guy who's out for himself. At any rate not someone who cares about Unforgivables being Unforgivable. 2) That AK, if you read carefully, was perhaps odd. Unlike AKs we have seen in the past, it did not drop DD in his tracks, it "blasted" him into the air. He had his eyes closed, and a peaceful expression, when viewed after the fall, instead of eyes open and a look of horror. Also, there was blood. And finally, Harry remained frozen for a few moments after the spell. He attributed this to shock, but perhaps DD actually died moments after the spell was cast, and only then was Harry freed from the body bind. These effects are attributed by different people to a nonverbal spell Snape performed while speaking the AK, or to the idea that an AK which *failed* might have the blast into the air effect. The reason to fake an AK in these theories is for the benefit of the watching Death Eaters, so they would be impressed by what a powerful DE Snape is. The reason for attempting to do an AK is again because that's what a DE does, the reason for failure would be that Snape doesn't *mean it* in the sense required for an Unforgiveable Curse to work. (I am a sentimentalist at heart, I suppose, I like this explanation best...) 3) Someone else suggested that throwing a weakened, elderly person off a tower is less humane than an AK, since with an AK death is instantaneous. Cindy again: >I think Snape *is* a > coward; someone who follows the winning side. zgirnius: Yes, people are always saying this about Snape. I just don't see it. Whether he wants to be the next Evil Overlord, is a loyal servant of Voldemort, is a flawed person who can't stick with any side in the conflict, or an honestly converted member of the Order, the guy has some guts. I mean, why not just graduate, get a job somewhere making potions, (better, make a killing on the revised Advanced Potions text...) and just keep your head down? Join the Death Eaters? Then defect?! (Even if you fake defecting, this gets risky, what if you are too convincing??) I don't doubt he has done things that are less than optimally brave, and killing DD may well be a prime example. But I think listing cowardice as a fundamental character element for this guy is not giving him enough credit. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:27:40 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:27:40 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136163 > dan: > Ah, but that is key too, the monumental aspect of his betrayal. It > means that for our protagonist, his coming to terms with Snape (and > little Draco Malfoy) will be a thing of sheer gift - nothing Snape can do will make up for his betrayal, and if Potter wants to proceed, he will have to have the generosity that Albus foresaw him needing. > > As for Snape, it's just sad. Carol responds: Or the monumental mistake could be leaving Hogwarts to look for the Horcrux and ignoring Harry's warning that Draco has achieved what he's been trying to do all year. He's found a way to let Death Eaters into Hogwarts. Until that moment, Dumbledore is under the delusion that the various protections he's placed on Hogwarts have made it safe. Going after the Horcrux and drinking all the poison could also be counted as a monumental mistake, especially when it turns out that the Horcrux is fake. Had it not been for those two mistakes, Dumbledore could easily have disarmed Draco *before* freezing Harry, kept his wand, and dealt with the Death Eaters as easily as he did with Fudge and the Aurors in OoP. And then, when Snape came hurtling into the room, he would have been faced with a very different set of choices. If Draco was in no danger and was no longer trying to kill Dumbledore would he still have been bound to kil Dumbledore or die? Or would the vow be void if he chose instead to help hide Draco from the Death Eaters? At any rate, Snape's mistake is evident from the moment he agrees to take that vow. But Dumbledore's mistake may not be what you think it is. As for Snape, it's more than sad. It's tragic. The vow is his tragic flaw, his hamartia. Just possibly, like Orestes in "The Eumenides," he'll be redeemed. Or so I hope. Carol From ongj87 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:12:30 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:12:30 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: <20050803010425.25029.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136164 >Juli: who's Dorcas Meadowes? I don't remember him Dorcas Meadowes was a former member of the old Order of the Phoenix. This is in the fifth book at the party to celebrate when Ron and Hermione are made into prefects when Mad Eye Moody is showing the picture of the old order members to Harry. Mad Eye recalls that Meadowes was personally killed by old Voldie himself. Oh, and it's a 'her' not a 'him'. I think it is possible that Hepzibah Smith (prior owner to the cup of Hufflepuff) might have been one of the deaths that went into making one of Voldemort's horcruxes. I also don't think it's quite fair to completely rule out Harry being one of the Horcruxes. The following is just one bit of my theory and isn't strong without additional support, but I think it's very interesting. The fact being that Voldemort despised his father, I think it's reasonable to say that he would be very sympathetic to his mother. I believe that he thinks that if she had lived, he never would have had to grow up in the orphanage. If Voldemort intentially planted a horcrux in Harry, I think he would have liked to think of Harry as his heir, something to stretch out the line of Slytherin. In this, I believe he would have wanted Harry as a child to be raised in the way he idealized, without a father (thus, he killed James) and with a mother to raise him (thus, he wanted to let Lily live). Voldemort wanted to have very special items for his horcruxes and Dumbledore theorized that he was in pursuit of relics of the founders of Hogwarts. If Voldemort was under the impression that Harry might be the heir to Gryffindor, I think he might have found the idea of turning Harry into one of his Horcruxes intriguing. In making Harry one his horcruxes, he might have been under the impression that this might also be the end to the line of Gryffindor. ongj87 From empooress at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 03:40:03 2005 From: empooress at gmail.com (Kim McGibony) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:40:03 -0400 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: <1123035255.1760.22087.m32@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123035255.1760.22087.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136165 Coming out of lurkdom, for my first post since HPB came out. As there are many post on this topic, I'm just going to post my thoughts. As I see it most of the Horcruxes were created when he was known primarily as Tom Marvolo Riddle, so I think in looking for locations, we have to look at places of signicance to his younger days. Here's the order in which I think the horcruxes were created: The Diary, while he was still at Hogwarts, one of the Riddle's deaths, let's say it was Tom Sr. The Ring, while he was at Hogwarts, another of the Riddle deaths, Grandma Riddle . The mystery item of Ravenclaw or Gryfindor, I think this one was also created before he left Hogwarts and is still there, perhaps in the Chamber of Secrets or the Room of Requirment (remember all that stuff Harry found when looking for a place to hide his text book), another Riddle Death, Grandpa Riddle. I'm almost certain that this one is at Hogwarts, as he tried on at least two occasions to return there after he had left school. We know that these three murders occured before he had finished school, remember the pensive scene in Slughorn's office, he was wearing the ring. Slytherin's locket, possible at 12 Grimmald Place or perhaps Mundungus has it, Hezphib Smith's death (lady from whom he stole the locket) RAB? Regulas Black now known as Stubby Boardman perhaps? Hufflepuff's Cup, The Riddle House, a place significant enough for him to have return there at least 3 times (once to murder his father's family, where he killed Frank Bryce, and the location that Harry was taken too for Voldy's "rebirth") Not sure who's death, but I suspect it was James Potter and this is why Lily did not have to die, but James did. (of course, I could just be blowing smoke as usual here) Nagani, with Voldy, where ever he may be right now, Frank Bryce's death. "Divided, but in essence one" Is Harry a horcrux, I'd have to say no. I don't believe he would have had time to perform what must be a very complex bit of magic. And at the end of OOtP, Voldy was unable to stand being inside of Harry. And well, I just don't think he be trying so hard to kill him if he was a horcrux. Oh and one more thought, about that advanced potions book, can't remember seeing this suggested but perhaps the notes were Snape's (in as we know his mother's old book) but perhaps he was getting those notes from Lily. Why Slughorn keeps on about how great she was at potions. And we know she was good at charms as well, so maybe she invented those spells. Empooress From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:43:28 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:43:28 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to > know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? > > Snapeophile ======== My question is this: Did Snape take the Vow because he loves Narcissa? I am sure that is the reason. Tonks_op From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:48:00 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:48:00 -0000 Subject: Killing Snape. Who will do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136167 "Tonks" wrote: > SO Snape good or evil, we will have to KILL HIM off early in book > 7. There is no other way. He is getting in the way of our Hero > vanquishing the Dark Lord. zgirnius: I totally agree with your post, I also expect to see Snape die in Book 7. Though I am not so sure about early. I agree that if we see him running around doing heinous or heroic acts all over the place through much of the book, that would be problematic, but I can see him disappearing for a large part of the book only to reappear and die. I don't consider any of your first three options likely either. Loved option 1, though, Lucius kills Snape after finding him *with* Cissy... I agree with you about 2 and 3 as well. I'm not expecting 4, either, but this may be because we are in different Snape camps. I expect to see Snape acting in a way consistent with him having at least some loyalty to Dumbledore in Book 7. I think it is entirely likely that Order members will want to kill him, but the way I see things that would be a *waste*. Snape is going to die doing something useful for Harry or the mission. From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:52:30 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy L) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:52:30 -0000 Subject: Snape and AK curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > "Cindy" wrote: > > Snape used the AK curse on DD. Why? DD was near death, slipping > > along the tower, with no wand. All Snape had to do was use a spell > > to fling him off the tower. It is very unlikely someone could > > survive such a fall, much less one in DD's condition. Why *that* > > particular curse? > > zgirnius: > > 2) That AK, if you read carefully, was perhaps odd. Unlike AKs we > have seen in the past, it did not drop DD in his tracks, it "blasted" > him into the air. He had his eyes closed, and a peaceful expression, > when viewed after the fall, instead of eyes open and a look of > horror. Also, there was blood. And finally, Harry remained frozen for > a few moments after the spell. He attributed this to shock, but > perhaps DD actually died moments after the spell was cast, and only > then was Harry freed from the body bind. > > These effects are attributed by different people to a nonverbal spell > Snape performed while speaking the AK, or to the idea that an AK > which *failed* might have the blast into the air effect. ME (CINDY): I think this is a terrific answer! I never thought of that - that Harry wasn't freed from the body bind spell immediately (even though it IS possible that he could have been frozen from shock). And the peaceful expression on DD's face - very good! Thanks. > Cindy again: > >I think Snape *is* a > > coward; someone who follows the winning side. > > zgirnius: > I don't doubt he has done things that are less than optimally brave, > and killing DD may well be a prime example. But I think listing > cowardice as a fundamental character element for this guy is not > giving him enough credit. ME (CINDY): I still have to go with the theory that Snape follows the winning side. For example, it is hard for me to believe that Harry will ever trust Snape again, so it would be strange to write Snape as turning out to be a good guy after all - Harry has had six books to learn to distrust Snape and he never did. So therefore if Snape tries to help Harry - Harry won't go for it anyway. It could even be a stumbling block. Also, The Order won't trust Snape either, unless there is some convincing letter written by DD before his death explaining why he allowed Snape to kill him. And how is Snape going to get around the fact that it *appeared* that he used the AK curse. How will others know for sure? Still ruminating over this. ;) Cindy From jmkearns at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 03:56:53 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:56:53 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Theories In-Reply-To: <20050803010425.25029.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136169 So many ideas, so little space :) > > John K earlier: > > Horcruxes can be destroyed, but as long as they still exist, the > > original soul cannot be. > > Juli: > I don't understand this sentence: Isn't there a word missing, > the word Die/killed/vanished at the end? the original soul cannot > be killed? John K again: Yep, I meant the original soul cannot be killed. It can leave its host body, as Voldemort's did, but not destroyed altogether. Sorry that was unclear. > Juli: his plan was to make 7 (including himself), and that's what > he did, if 9 was the magical number, he may have done 9, but he > wanted 7, that's what he did. I think he doesn't care so much > about his soul that he wouldn't kill anymore to keep it safe, he's > kept on killing, and he will, but he's got all the horcruxes he > needs. John K: This is an excellent point, one I'm kicking myself for not including. It's also why I believe Voldemort hasn't made more Horcruxes, even though he knows at least one of the originals was destroyed: 7 as the perfect number has to do with the creation of the Horcruxes, rather than the number of Horcruxes in existence at any given time. Dumbledore must believe this, or he'd at least mention to Harry the possibility that Voldemort might have created a new one to compensate for the one he knows he lost. Plus, if Voldemort kept creating more whenever one was destroyed, the story would never end. > Juli: I think RAB (whoever it is) also destroyed the locket, maybe > the locket is still around, but the soul it had is long gone. John K: I hope you're right. I don't know what to think about RAB. Regulus and the locket in Grimmauld seem so... obvious. But it seems so logical at the same time. > Juli: Something Ravenclaw's, I trust Dumbledore when he says the > only remaining item of Gryffindor is safe. The question is, what > it is???? John K: This idea intrigues me, especially with JKR's tantalizing clue: "I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books." Is she talking about this fifth one? Or about the locket? If she is talking about the fifth one, what the heck could it be? I'm also very interested to know this: if Voldemort was planning to use Harry's death to create a Horcrux, what item was he planning to use? And what happened to it? Even if a Death Eater was with him at Godric's Hollow, they wouldn't have known about the Horcruxes.... > Juli: I don't think so, the CoS was about his first Horcrux, the > Diary, he wouldn't put 2 of them in the same place. I know the > diary wasn't in the CoS, but it showed how to get there, so if > anyone found it then he/she would also get the Horcrux? don't > think so John K: I still think it's possible for a Horcrux to be hidden in the Chamber - remember, Riddle thought he was the only Parseltongue in the world, how could anybody get in unless he was controlling them? And would that really count as showing them? Also, there are certainly other potential secrets of Hogwarts besides the Chamber. I just can't fathom Riddle placing these things in all the locations most relevant to his life and not including Hogwarts. There would certainly have been a mystique for him about leaving it - in the building, not like the diary - the way there is about the founders' artifacts. > > John K earlier: > > 3) Finally, When were the Horcruxes created, and who was killed > > in the process? > > Juli: > Ring: Morfin Gaunt > Locket: The Riddle family (dad, grand parents) > Nagini: the old man (the gardener at the Riddle house) > The others? who knows! John K: Remember that Riddle was wearing the ring - indicating to Harry that the Riddle family was already dead - when he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes (so he probably couldn't use them to create the Horcruxes). And Morfin died in Azkaban. So... it looks like Frank Bryce is the only one we even have a clue about. > Juli: who's Dorcas Meadowes? I don't remember him John K: She was in the picture of the old Order that Moody showed Harry in OP. He mentioned that Voldemort killed her personally. Thanks for the insights and compliments, Juli! :) John K From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 04:21:00 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:21:00 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136170 prepOstrus wrote: What's Lee Jordan up to????? (and if you want a great idea, ask Marianne) now Marianne S: Just to clarify... I think that he meant me, not the other (talented) Marianne on here... So in case kiricat4001 Marianne got some emails that she had no idea what they were talking about... I'm here to tell you my Lee Jordan prediction!!! Are you ready? Ok, if I were JKR, I would write Lee to now be working for the WIZARD WIRELESS NETWORK! I think he would be fantastic as the "voice of Quidditch" and I'm sure people would be sure to tune into his shows, no matter what the content, because he certainly had a "flair for the air." Lee Jordan Live on WWN would, of course, be sponsored by none other than Weasley's Wizard Wheezes... and wouldn't it be great to make up for the fact that we had NO Lee in HBP to have his radio show pass along secret coded messagesto our hero(s) to and from order members and others who might be working from the school... Ok... I'm not supposed to be writing Fan Fiction here... so I'll stop. But, I would love to know what Lee is ACTUALLY doing! Other things I'd ask: a) Did Lily agree to go out with James because he saved Snape's life? (I could see Lily to be the type who would fall for someone that would save his worst enemy.) b) How was it that James, someone who was constantly in trouble, was able to be Head Boy? Can a Head Boy and Head Girl be from the same house? c) Where do wizards go to school before Hogwarts? I assume those with muggle parentage go to muggle schools... d) Was Amelia Bones killed because of her hand in prosecuting Death Eaters, because she would have been the next (and much better) Minister of Magic, or possibly both? Obviously, these questions don't really pertain to the next book... and the many questions I have that DO pertain to book 7, I'm more than happy to wait for! Marianne S From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 04:21:22 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy L) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:21:22 -0000 Subject: Prophecy # 1: Wait A Second In-Reply-To: <13e.187701bc.30218371@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > We hear the story of someone overhearing Trelawney's first prophecy from > Dumbledore in OOP (Chapter 37): > > "My---our---one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was > detected only a short way through the prophecy and thrown from the building." > > But this is directly contradicted (well, not really, but Dumbledore is > skirting the issue again anyway, I think) by Trelawney's evidence in HBP ( Chapter > 25, italics mine): > "...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!" > > "What?" > > "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was > that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape..." > ******************** > Harry immediately flies off the handle about this, as I would do in his > place. But he doesn't catch the point. Snape did not leave that hallway until > the entire prophecy was made. Trelawney isn't going to wake up mid- sentence > and fall into her trance again. ME (CINDY): This really got my attention too! I could not understand how they could be interrupted mid-prophecy, and then continue on after a commotion like that. This has me very confused. If Snape did hear the entire prophecy, and at that time he was working for Voldemort, then Voldemort would know the whole prophecy - which of course he doesn't as was proven in OoP. Also, did Trelawney know Snape? How could she remember it was Snape who barged in? From leslie41 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 04:22:33 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:22:33 -0000 Subject: Killing Snape. Who will do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136172 I do think Snape will die in the next book. But Lucius can't kill Snape. He's in prison. And at any rate he's completely incapable. Snape is utterly beyond him at this point. Bella won't kill him either. Firstly, see above. Secondly, part of his reason for taking the Unbreakable Vow was to secure her trust. Thirdly, it's not like Snape and Bellatrix are sharing a lover. She might still resent Snape but she's not likely to kill him, unless Voldemort orders her to, that is. Snape's not going to kill himself. It's not in his nature. No member of the order will kill him either. Again, see above. The scene at the end of the book where he "fights" Harry proves that Snape is without a doubt the most powerful wizard save Voldemort. What's left? Well, Voldemort will kill him, and most likely in front of Harry, more towards the end of the book rather than at the beginning, after Harry and Snape have had yet another face-off. Harry and Snape must meet again, must talk again, and must, perhaps, fight again. I see a scene maybe similar to that we found at the end of PoA, where Harry--who had thought along with the rest of the wizarding world that Sirius Black betrayed his parents--comes to realize he was as mistaken about Snape as he was about Black. Or at least that it's not that simple. Snape has just gotten too damned wonderful as a character for Rowling to abandon him to death at the beginning. HBP was really "his" book, and the best chapter in it--I would say the best she has written--is Spinner's End. The best scenes are all with Snape, or involving Snape in some way. She's not fooling me. She's terribly attracted to him, really, as attracted as she is repelled. Got a real love/hate relationship with him. Whatever she does, however Snape turns out at the end, she won't do him a disservice as a character, and my guess is we'll see our fair share of him in Book 7. From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 04:25:20 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:25:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Alla: > > I don't see him as a ruler, but I most definitely see him as someone > who has delusions of grandeur. > > The man in his late thirties screams " I , half blood prince". > Considering the fact that it was the name he created for himself as > a child, I find it pretty pathetic,to put it mildly. > > [snip] > It was cited here few months ago and maybe even earlier, but I could > not find the post, so I just searched the Internet. > > This is Alan Rickman's quote about Snape. No, I am not asking > anybody to take it as canon, but if JKR indeed told him a few things > about Snape, which we are not privy too yet, I think it makes whole > lot of sense especially in light of HBP. > > "From Unreel Magazine: > Q: Can you tell us a little about your character, Professor Snape? > AR: Well, he's a Professor of Potions and the current head of > Slytherin at Hogwarts-the school of wizardry that Harry attends, but > he harbors a secret ambition to be a Professor of Dark Arts. He > isn't that taken with Harry, though, probably because he finds him a > little too popular for a first year pupil, I suppose. I think at > heart, Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he's always > longing to be something else that people would really respect, like > a black magician, not just a school master. That's why he envies the > more popular and sucessful boys like Harry. He does have his > positive side, though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side, he > doesn't let it worry him too much." > > > Hmm, he ls always longing to be something else that people would > really respect, like a black magician... > lealess: Snape may be flawed, but he is generally not stupid. Given the other factors I mentioned in my post, the bulk of which you did not address, it seems unlikely Snape is planning to become a Dark Overlord. If he is, it will come out of left field, as the basis for it has not been developed in the story. (Well, that has been known to happen, I suppose.) As for delusions of grandeur, his sole ambition has been stated over and over to be a DADA professor -- is this grand? Is he wiping the floor with his students in this class to get them to worship his great powers? Isn't it likely the book would have included a scene with this if it was true, since we've seen repeatedly how happy Snape was teaching potions? And wanting to be respected for one's talents, even if those are dark arts, does not mean needing to exert control over others. Most people want to be respected for something they are good at. That's part of why they become good at things, for recognition, but not necessarily for power. And many people happen to be insecure, especially if they are thwarted from attaining their goals or achieving a position of trust. If anything, Snape seems more secure after being given the DADA position, secure enough to hand out a mild detention without dissolving into an excess of sarcasm or accusation. I know that Rowling is supposed to have given Rickman some special information. I think this is why there was a scene in POA with him protecting the Trio from Werewolf Lupin. I do not know much about the quote: is it Rickman's interpretation of what he was told who knows when, or is it something he made up on his own to help him act the character? In any event, beyond the part about Snape's insecurity and envy of Harry (which seems implausible, but who knows), Rickman says, "He does have his positive side, though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side, he doesn't let it worry him too much." So, that seems good, right? I wonder what his positive side is? I think Snape leaving Hogwarts raved about "the Half-Blood Prince" not because he is a megalomaniac, but because he has just killed someone he probably valued and is heading into who-knows-what danger, with his life in a shambles, and here is this kid using a spell Snape invented, from a book the kid baldly lied to him about possessing. Just enough to drive anyone spare, I'd say. Voldemort is the evil in the story; Snape is something else entirely, a fascinating puzzle for the imagination, so far. lealess From siskiou at vcem.com Wed Aug 3 04:24:13 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:24:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1058770135.20050802212413@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136174 Hi, Tuesday, August 2, 2005, 7:14:13 PM, sienna291973 wrote: > Now me: > I actually think there is a fair bit to be said against the way male/ > female relationships are portrayed in general in the HP series but > that is another post (and a long one at that). Realistic some may > think them but almost all the romantic relationships in the HP > universe are stereotypes of one sort or another (IMO). They subvert > nothing, challenge nothing and ultimately, for all the strength in > the female characters, paint a very comfortable patriarchal view of > the world. And it disappoints me because I think she had the ability > to do better. But what you may consider as "better" might get a whole other group disappointed and ready for a letter campaign. No matter which way she writes relationships, there will be people who find it cliched, dislike the pairings for one reason or another, or find them stereotypes in another way. Had it been H/Hr, there would have been plenty of complaints about how wrong it is to show an intelligent girl like Hermione bending over backwards to help Harry, who just accepted her help when it pleased him, but otherwise ignored her advice, lied to her or avoided her when he didn't like it, and finally acknowledged her only after she had been pining for him for years ;) Each way a romance could have happened has in-built problems and there is no way the author could please everyone. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 05:08:10 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:08:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's transformation (Was: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136175 - Jen wrote: > I'm putting that aside for a minute because something else has me > wondering. It seems like Dumbledore is saying LV's appearance > changed due to his quest for immortality which we now know is the > Horcruxes. So, we first see a glint of his red eyes when he's > surveying the treasures at Hepzibah's house. To me that would mean > he's already learned how to make Horcruxes, and there's some > evidence that the diary and ring are already hidden. But you could > also argue it was simply the murders subtly changing his appearance > and that the Horcrux making took place during the next ten years. > Because we do see a very drastic change in LV's appearance when he > requests the job at Hogwarts. > > Is it reasonable he learned to make the Horcruxes immediately after > that conversation with Slughorn? I'm starting to think not. Where > would he find out while still at Hogwarts? Did he learn everything > he needed to know that summer right after the murders? If so, it > must not be terribly complex. Or he had a mentor. > Carol responds: I agree with you that Tom Riddle could not have created the Horcruxes (other than the diary, which is not a true Horcrux in that it's easily destroyed, requires interaction with another person, and was originally intended for another purpose). The fact that Diary!Tom isn't wearing the ring suggest to me *not* that he's already created the ring Horcrux but that he hasn't yet killed his family. The only murder he's committed at this time is Moaning Myrtle, who was killed on his direction by the basilisk, which is as much his agent as his weapon. After framing Hagrid and creating the diary as a kind of amateur pseudo-Horcrux, he leaves Hogwarts for the summer, kills his father and grandparents, and comes back with the object that he intends to make into his first real Horcrux, the ring. He does not yet know how to do it, or even exactly what a Horcrux is, and the information Slughorn gives him, though helpful, is not sufficient to enable him to make one. Nor, as we know from Hermione's efforts, is this information available at Hogwarts. So, as you say, he needed a mentor. We don't see Tom during his seventh year at Hogwarts, but it could be that he used the summer between his sixth and seventh years to visit Grindelwald (surely this is the reason Grindelwald has been mentioned in the earlier books?) and create his first real Horcrux. Notice that when we see Riddle in the house elf Hokey's memory, his appearance *has* changed. He is still handsome, perhaps even handsomer than before, but his cheeks are hollow and there's that unnatural glint of red in his eyes when he sees the cup and the locket. I suggest that these subtle-seeming changes are the result of having created his first genuine Horcrux. If creating one Horcrux significantly changed a person's appearance significantly, no one would do it. They'd be trading a normal lifespan and a human appearance for a half-life as an immortal monster. The changes in Riddle at this time are subtle. He is only eighteen but he looks older, slightly sinister and slightly ill. We know he has committed at least four murders (counting Myrtle). Almost certainly he has used his most significant murder so far, that of his father, to create the ring Horcrus. But he is acquiring the objects needed to create two more. When we next see him ten years later, he is twenty-eight and ought to look as he did when he visited Hepzibah Smith. Instead, although still recognizable to his former Slytherin followers (Theo Nott's father among them) and to Dumbledore, his features are blurred, his skin is waxy, and his eyes and nose are starting to resemble those we will see in the resurrected Voldemort in GoF. He is about halfway there, having created the cup and locket Horcruxes. Which murders he used to create them we don't know, but he would probably consider his grandparents' deaths more significant than Hepzibah Smith's. Her death was only a means to an end. He returns to Hogwarts in hopes of securing more objects for Horcruxes, perhaps Gryffindor's sword or his own silver plaque, but he is thwarted by Dumbledore. He disappears again and is not seen until the year that Severus Snape and MWPP enter Hogwarts as eleven-year-olds. By this time he has undoubtedly committed more murders and probably created two more Horcruxes. I think the sixth is Nagini, which would account for his wholly snakelike appearance at the time he kills the Potters and in the resurrected form he sees in GoF. Snape thought that Voldemort had possessed the snake that bit Mr. Weasley in OoP, and he may have been right. But if Nagini is a Horcrux, that possession is permanent. Voldemort shares a part of his soul with her, and she with him. The snake was both Nagini and Voldemort, wanting to bite the man in the hallway and wanting the Prophecy that would help to destroy Harry Potter. Carol From ongj87 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 03:54:34 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:54:34 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and me (was : Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness...) In-Reply-To: <42F00033.6020308@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136176 "I see a relationship in which the boy calls the shots and the girl meekly accepts his decisions." - Del I have to disagree with this. Harry simply makes the decision that he doesn't wish to be with Ginny as he goes through the challenges he is about to face. He doesn't want Ginny to be burdened with his troubles, nor does he want a reason to fear death: that by dying he might not be able to see her again. And it's not him making a decision for the both of them. It's his decision to separate with her, and he's completely entitled to it. Whether it's in his best interest or not is a completely different matter. At any rate, I think we're missing the entire point that JK is trying to make here. There is no doubt that the relationships present in HP are imperfect. And the ones we witness between the students of Hogwarts are simply atrocious at times. But then again, you can make the same arguments about all the characters. None of the characters are what you'd call perfect. They all have faults. Does that mean that we should automatically assume that we need to take them up as rolemodels? Of course not. None of us do that. JK doesn't make perfect characters, and thus she doesn't make perfect couples. She realizes that although Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny are growing up, they are still far from mature, and have little experience in such matters. She wants to teach us that although Harry is good at keeping the dark forces at bay and Hermione is book smart and Ron is... well, let's not get into this now... the point is, she wants to teach us that love is a very seperate entity in it's own and can only be learned through experience. I think we can expect to see them mature in this area though. And if that ain't a good example for kids, then I don't know what is. And I don't know about you, but I don't think we should dwell on whether Harry and Ginny are to be set as an example for a good relationship to see whether JK is trying to plant good morals into our children as to love or dating. Why don't you look at Molly and Arthur Weasley's relationship? The love that has withstood two wars? Why don't you look at Tonks and Lupin, the couple that sets the standard for unconditional love? Why not look at Fleur and Bill, whom give the cliched 'looks don't matter' message? ongj87 From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 06:14:32 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:14:32 -0000 Subject: Killing Snape. Who will do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > If this is the classic hero story that many here and JKR herself say > that it is, then we have a problem with Snape, whether he is good or > evil. <<>>> Harry can not kill Snape, because even Snape knows that Harry can not and will not, and MUST NOT do an AK. So we can rule that option out. > > What do you think?? Let the debates begin. > > Tonks_op No question in my mind....Draco will kill Snape... We know he's ready to kill but cannot follow through. My guess is he hears about the unbreakable vow made between Snape and his mother. (Bellatrix will bring this out into the open to cast a shadow over snape among the DE's--probably that Draco would have done it if Snape had not buttedin.) Snape will taunt Draco about what a coward he is--just as he's taunted Harry and Neville over the years...and it will play out that Draco is no Longbottom/Potter... Draco has alot more inside info about Snape than we (the readers know), and DD, and the DE's....who knows what Snape may have said to the slytherin quidditch team and to his house over the years. Draco wants the protection of his father....not Snape...Draco loves feeling loved (all the treats and goodies from his parents over the years...their refusal to send him to Durmstrang etc.). Draco is a not-so-nice piece of work...but I place him at least a rung above Dudley. (not saying much I know) Draco is still treated better by his parents than Duddley however. Not due to gifts/presents/money...but the fact that they expect something more of him.. If we as readers wonder why Snape took so long to notify the order what Harry had done...then Draco must also be wondering why Snape didn't run to help his father...Despite Cissy's plea for help...it is strange that Draco would never ask the help of his favorite teacher. Bella taught him Occlumency yet Draco still refrains from telling Snape anything. Doddie: (Who thinks that if Lupin will kill anyone (or Tonks for that matter) it will be Greyback...perhaps with a little help from Fleur! From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 3 06:43:07 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:43:07 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and me (was : Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > I'm getting sick of it... I'm being attacked on things that I > specifically said I don't believe in, my hypothetical counter- examples > are misused as representations of my true beliefs, and in the meantime > the real subject I wanted to talk about is not being addressed. So > here's a recapitulative list of what I do and don't believe, and what > my real issues with the H/G romance are. > 2. I *NEVER* ASKED HP TO BE TURNED INTO A ROMANCE. Geoff: I suddenly realised that I may possibly have made an unconscious prediction. Having been prompted by Del's note 2 above to look back in my archive of posts, I realised that in message 132476, which I posted on 11/07/05 (i.e. 5 days efore H-Day), I wrote: 'I shall go into maverick mode at this point. Why has Harry got to have a girl friend at this point in time? Why can't he remain a bachelor boy for the moment? Looking at the members of my church boys' club, who are aged about the same as Harry in the OOTP/HBP time frame, quite a number of them have not got girl friends... yet. Again, it will be very frustrating for any girl if, in the middle of getting a kiss from the Boy Who Lived, he breaks off and exits with a cursory: 'Excuse me. I have to go and kill Voldemort now. I'll see you later.' :-)" Coming from a member who doesn't travel by sea :-) I must have had a visionary moment! From djklaugh at comcast.net Wed Aug 3 04:24:30 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:24:30 -0000 Subject: What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136179 : > Hi Potterphiles! > If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I > would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to > know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? > > Snapeophile LOL the answer to that might very well give a whole new meaning to the phrase "suck face" (for non US members this is an US adolescent euphamism for snogging).... I'd ask who the new dark haired female ghost at Hogwarts is - don't think we've encountered her before HBP but Harry comes across her 2 or 3 times Deb From dave100941 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 05:28:34 2005 From: dave100941 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape Moratorium Message-ID: <20050803052835.60050.qmail@web60315.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136180 Numerous members of this group have eloquently posted well-written opinions about Severus Snape. Those opinions fall into the following categories: A. Snape is a good guy. Dumbledore is not really dead: His apparent death is an elaborate hoax. B. Snape is a good guy. Dumbledore is really dead, but his killing was part of a pre-arranged plan between Snape and Dumbledore, who may have been about to die anyway. C. Snape is a bad guy who has always been a supporter of Voldemort. D. Snape is a bad Slytherin who is looking out for himself. From the prophecy, Snape knows that he cannot kill Voldemort: only Harry Potter has that capability. If Harry fails, Snape will remain a loyal Death Eater. If Harry succeeds, Snape intends to kill Harry and take Voldemort's place as head of the Death Eaters. Our group is being overwhelmed by so many of these articles. To give everyone time to catch up, Can we declare a 30 day moratorium on any discussion of Severus Snape? Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 04:33:49 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:33:49 -0000 Subject: THE ROOM OF REQUIREMENT IS itself A HORCRUX Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136181 THE ROOM OF REQUIREMENT IS ITSELF A HORCRUX. And the reasons I have to believe this is the following we do not know what Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw left behind at Hogwarts. So we have to ask ourselves, "What do we know?" Ravenclaw? According to the sorting hat, she must have been clever, sharp and wise. What does a Raven represents? It means to seek or seize prey. That could also be denominated as ?to seek for something and find it?. So, we can deduce from this that if in order to find the room of requirements one would have to be seeking for something, and then a door would immediately appear, the room of requirements would have to be what Ravenclaw left behind. And of course, the room of requirement entirely could be the next Horcruxe. However, we can also infer what Hufflepuff left behind with what we know about him so far. Which is: known for his loyalty, Hufflepuff was a devoted hard worker. From this point on, you guys could help me conclude what was that Hufflepuff left behind. How did I get to this conclusion, of the room of requirements being LV Horcruxe that Ravenclaw left behind, well, it is simple; We all know that what Gryffindor and Salazar left behind represents what they are truly about, it is, of course, their proper illustration. And what better way to describe a clever, sharp, wise wizard such as Ravenclaw, by means of a creation that only screams out the words brilliant, brains, intellect, astute and shrewdness as is the room of requirements? Not with standing, I hope that you guys make it count that LV was the one who left the diary to do his evil deeds, as it did in Chamber of Secrets. And what Salazar Slytherin left behind at Hogwarts was the chamber of secrets This is what I found after I reading once more, book2. As we all know, the diary was a Horcruxe, and I believe that the chamber itself is another one Penny for a thought? Best wishes, always -Dilia From tlpbupu at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 04:46:39 2005 From: tlpbupu at hotmail.com (tlpbupu) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:46:39 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kim McGibony wrote: > > Is Harry a horcrux, I'd have to say no. I don't believe he would have > had time to > perform what must be a very complex bit of magic. And at the end of > OOtP, Voldy was unable to stand being inside of Harry. And well, I > just don't think he be trying so hard to kill him if he was a horcrux. > > Empooress tlpbupu: I completely agree with this statement and would just like to add one question. When would Voldy have made Harry a horcrux? Since OOTP we know why Voldemort tried to kill Harry as a baby and that is what he went there to do. In Goblet he actually takes a part of Harry (blood), but shows no magic that could be interpreted as creating a horcrux. In OOTP again Voldemort and Harry have very little actually time physically together with no signs of magic that we have not already been shown. I agree with Empooress that it must be a very complex piece of magic to separte your soul from your body even if it is "torn". To the people who do believe that Harry is a horcrux, please tell me when you think that this happened because right now my sleep deprived little mind cannpt think of a time this would be possible. And the usually disclaimers of sorry if this has been brought up, but can anyone honestly keep up with all of these posts! tlpbupu (who after she is told exactly when and where, many times I'm sure, will slowely retreat back into lurkdom) From 4nerds at eskimo.com Wed Aug 3 06:43:12 2005 From: 4nerds at eskimo.com (jewal1) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:43:12 -0000 Subject: 12 Grimmauld Place Still Secret? Omitted Line! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136183 I have been reading the excellent posts here and had a couple of questions and ideas for the crowd... Now that Dumbledore is (presumeably) Dead, Is the "secret" of the location of 12 grimmauld place not a secret anymore or is it a permanent secret? Could he have passed the secret on to someone else knowing he might be dying? -Also- I'm sure you have all heard by now that the UK version of HBP is lacking a very interesting line that the US version has present. In the US version (pg. 591 last lines), Draco says "No, you can't," "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." And Dumbledore responds "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine." In the UK version (pg.552 last lines) he says the same thing EXCEPT he does not say the line "He cannot kill you if you are already dead". I wonder if this line was omitted from the UK version because it was thought to reveal too much and they neglected to omit it from the US version. OR if it was purposely left in the US version to spark this discussion?! Any Opinions or Comments?? Really enjoyed the book! Loved reading Harry finally getting the memory from Slughorn! Loved him asking Luna to the party (what a NICE Guy!) Didn't really like the shipping or the way they finally came about. Loved that Harry got Grimmauld place!! Was fascinated by Spinners end! Loved Dumbledore at the Dursley's! Really like the Horcrux idea... Appreciated the backstory on LV. Like Slughorn! Missed the DA! Missed Neville. Loved Arthur and Molly Canoodling! Loved Dumbledore and Harry together! Loved exploring the memories! Fun! Was Traumatized by SNAPE! Until I began to think it was a set up somehow. How AWFUL was LV's family!!! I am really excited for book 7 though and equally sad that it is the last. TWO WHOLE YEARS to discuss these! Thanks for listening! Jewal From janacooney at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 04:32:08 2005 From: janacooney at yahoo.com (janacooney) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:32:08 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and me (was : Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136184 Del wrote: > I'm getting sick of it... I'm being attacked on things that I > specifically said I don't believe in, my hypothetical counter- > examples are misused as representations of my true beliefs, and in > the meantime the real subject I wanted to talk about is not being > addressed. > > 4. JKR knows she's writing, among other people, for young people > who have an immature view of love and romance. That's why I > expected herto *explain* what a happy and healthy relationship is, > instead of > assuming that all her readers would know. > > JKR *knows* that way too many girls have an unhealthy interest in > Draco for example. So she knows that many young girls (and boys) > *cannot* be trusted to know what a healthy relationship is like. So > her not explaining (in the book) *why* Ginny and Harry's romance > is a good and healthy one is silly, a lost opportunity, and IMO > even dangerous. Jana Writes: - You accused Harry of abusing Ginny and you did question JK's writing and you did want to see more romance. I asked my daughter(13) what she thought and she said she pictured H/G walkig around holding hands and a little kiss every now and then. When I told her what was said , she thought that was ridiculus and so she called a few friends and without telling them what an adult thought, they responded that Jk did a good job at writng about H/G , they actully liked guessing what happened (and none of it included sex ). I'm not saying that's what all kids thought , but I can say that for some it did not include sex, I never even thought of that. I hope this subject closes soon too because that's about all I've seen lately. I think we'd all like to talk about somthing else , but it's hard when you bring up and say such controversal things. From leslie41 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 07:20:59 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:20:59 -0000 Subject: Snape Moratorium In-Reply-To: <20050803052835.60050.qmail@web60315.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136185 > Our group is being overwhelmed by so many of these articles. To give everyone time to catch up, Can we declare a 30 day moratorium on any discussion of Severus Snape? > Pardon me, but are you a mod? If you are, is that going to be a rule? If so, I'll be back in a month. If you're not a mod, well... NO! ;^) Many of us obviously do not tire of discussing Snape, even when we repeat ourselves. In the HP universe, Snape is our favorite subject. You don't want to deprive us of that, do you? I personally think he's the best character in the series, and have no interest at all in discussing the respective love lives of the trio, or Dumbledore's brother, or horcruxes. I don't look at those messages because frankly, I don't care enough to follow the discussions. And I would assume that's the case for many out there re. Snape. Now, if there is information overload, and if people can't keep up with everything about Snape (and I include myself in that), then I'd rather just keep up as well as we can rather than stop talking about him all together. Just my $.02 From bassin2 at prodigy.net Wed Aug 3 04:47:08 2005 From: bassin2 at prodigy.net (rivkahanki) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 04:47:08 -0000 Subject: Horcrux in the cabinet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136186 Cindy wrote: > In regard as to where Harry's adventures to find the Horcruxes > might take him, I've always wondered about the Weasley's trip to > Eygpt. from Rivkahanki They have seen and touched the Locket Horcrux. It was in the cabinet in 12 Grimmauld Pl - They were cleaning - "a heavy locket that none of them could open" JKR never says if Sirius threw it away. Kreacher could have it - or Mundungus. From snikker000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 07:43:57 2005 From: snikker000 at yahoo.com (Sharkbait) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:43:57 -0000 Subject: Snape Moratorium In-Reply-To: <20050803052835.60050.qmail@web60315.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave wrote: > > D. Snape is a bad Slytherin who is looking out for himself. From the prophecy, Snape knows that he cannot kill Voldemort: only Harry Potter has that capability. > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. this part, (OotP pg.841) "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." Snape was caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that prophecy. and the part where it says "... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." now that has me confused with all the other,neither, eithers so I think it's 2 others and 1 either? I'm am hoping someone smart will read this and explain it to me. Sharkbait From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 08:02:45 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:02:45 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and me (was : Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > I'm getting sick of it... I'm being attacked on things that I > specifically said I don't believe in, my hypothetical counter-examples > are misused as representations of my true beliefs, and in the meantime > the real subject I wanted to talk about is not being addressed. So > here's a recapitulative list of what I do and don't believe, and what > my real issues with the H/G romance are. > Del Sandra writes: I totally agree with you Del, you make a whole series of good and very simple points about the lack of background for a key relationship in the book. A few sentences here and there would turn Ginny from being a venomous, temper-throwing witch and into a good girlfriend for Harry - but there just isn't any. And I also know what you mean about people taking things the wrong way - I drifted away from here for a while due to that. I like the books, there are certain parts that annoy me because they're so weakly written, and some people do enjoy running in the wrong directin with a topic! Do keep smiling, Del!! Sandra Sandra From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 3 08:06:38 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:06:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" wrote: > Let's assume Snape set out to eliminate the Big Two, but had to wait > until Dumbledore was weak enough and Harry was trained enough to take > on Voldemort. I think that Snape is more of an oppotunist, but it is entirely possible that he was party to the trap with the poison otion that needed to be drank to get the fake Horcrux. Frankly I would not put it past him. As one of the 3 top potion makers we know of (Slughorn and Voldemort being the other two) he is a suspect by default. > Is Snape acting as though he is actually trying to take over the > wizarding world? Wishing to be the top guy does not necessarily imply making concrete plans for the day after... > (1) Where is he building his base? Does he have followers, like > Dumbledore and Voldemort do? He would be foolish to even try to build a base while Dumbledore and Voldemort are still around. It would do nothing but lead them both to focus on him. Much better to take on from within. Notice that he managed to build himself a top level position in both organizations in a remarkably short time, by essentially convincing both camps that he is firmly on their side and has valuable inside information from the other side to give... I agree that Snape is not a military/political leader in the way that Voldemort and Dumbledore are. This does not mean he does not wish to be on top. He wants people to respect and fear him at this point. > (2) Where has Snape tried to exert control over anyone else > (successfully, not symbolically) before? Has he been shown to use > Imperius, Obliviate, or other mind-control techniques? He has expert knowledge of at least one Unforgivable Curse which suggests that he must have used it before (perhaps on those poor flies? :-)). He was/is a top level Death Eater. Ergo it is a given that he must have performed nasty stuff. Voldemort keeps his followers pretty busy from early on (standard technique of pimps and drug dealers when introducing new youngsters into the trade is to immerse them in it early on so they can't go back). > Has he told > Big Lies? Must have, or Dumbledore would not have been so deceived... > Even the (mild and petulant) detentions given to Harry in > HBP try to offer suggestion, not mind-altering coercion, about his > father and godfather. If his goals are what I suggested, he must be (and is) very protective of Harry and willing to go out of his way to teach him more, despite hating him. He has to get him shaped up to defeat Voldemort while leaving enough vulnerabilities that he can exploit later, knowing Harry so well. > And if he wanted to get the truth from Draco, > couldn't he have given him Veratiserum? Rowling had an explanation on why they don't often work. Check her website. > (3) Who fears Snape? If Bellatrix and the group in the Astronomy > Tower are any indication, the Death Eaters respect him, but might not > follow him out of fear. Even Wormtail listens in at doors in Snape's > own home. Again, what he wants and what he gets are two different things. That he wants to be feared and is not will only make him more dangerous. I also believe that killing Dumbledore will give him that status among the DE's and the general population. > (4) Who loves Snape? enough to follow him. Voldemort does not seem to have any problem getting followers and somehow I can't imagine any of them actually love him! > (5) If there's a void created by a subsequent death of Voldemort, > would Snape be able to step into it? Who would welcome him? Again, you are applying logical thinking from the outside. The question is not whether he can step into it but whether he wants to or thinks he can. > What > position does he hail from? He is not Minister of Magic, or anything > seemingly above the fray. Neither are Volemort or Dumbledore... Anyway, he wants to lead the bad guys, not the good guys. Somehow I don't think that being Minister of Magic is such a recommendation with them. > He's killed the beloved Dumbledore. > Voldemort will be dispatched in some manner in due course. Will the > followers of the Big Two roll out the welcome mat for him then? He can't get both sides to follow him, of course. He's casted his lot with the DE's. Where do you think killing Dumbledore and disarming Harry can put him in their eyes, when Voldemort himself failed to do either one. Snape had better be careful that Voldemort does not eliminate him as a threat next! > (6) What about Harry? Isn't he the "and a Half" after the Big Two? > Snape would have to defeat Harry, or his followers, assuming there is > no Unbreakable Vow binding Snape from ever harming Harry. Only after Voldemort is defeated. For now, he is very careful not to harm him in any way... > Does he > seem to be anticipating the day he faces Potter? He's been pretty > easy on him so far, not as psychologically intimidating as I would be > if I wanted to throw an opponent off guard for a future fight. And he knows Harry better than any one else, having explored his mind thoroughly during the Occlumency lessons, curtesy of Dumbledore's trust... He thinks he can defeat him as he knows his weaknesses and how to goad him (witness their duel at the end of HBP where Harry was traunced). > all evidence points > to Snape being someone who ultimately lets others determine the > course of their own lives, hoping they will leave him the hell > alone. I do not see him as a ruler, even with the Half-Blood Prince > moniker. I don't see him as a leader but any tyrant can become a ruler if he can gather enough strength under him. Right now he is in a very good position. The former top players are pretty much out - Malfoy Sr. messed up terribly and Bellatrix is a mental basket case. Salit From CariadMel at aol.com Wed Aug 3 08:13:51 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (CariadMel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:13:51 EDT Subject: Killing Snape; who will do it Message-ID: <6d.4a82a035.3021d6bf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136190 Leslie41 wrote: (long snip) "Snape's not going to kill himself. It's not in his nature.? No member of the order will kill him either. Again, see above.? The scene at the end of the book where he "fights" Harry proves that Snape is without a doubt the most powerful wizard save Voldemort.? ? What's left?? Well, Voldemort will kill him, and most likely in front of Harry, more towards the end of the book rather than at the beginning, after Harry and Snape have had yet another face-off.? Harry and Snape must meet again, must talk again, and must, perhaps, fight again. I see a scene maybe similar to that we found at the end of PoA, where Harry--who had thought along with the rest of the wizarding world that Sirius Black betrayed his parents--comes to realize he was as mistaken about Snape as he was about Black. Or at least that it's not that simple. Snape has just gotten too damned wonderful as a character for Rowling to abandon him to death at the beginning.? HBP was really "his" book, and the best chapter in it--I would say the best she has written--is Spinner's End.? The best scenes are all with Snape, or involving Snape in some way. She's not fooling me.? She's terribly attracted to him, really, as attracted as she is repelled.? Got a real love/hate relationship with him.? Whatever she does, however Snape turns out at the end, she won't do him a disservice as a character, and my guess is we'll see our fair share of him in Book 7." me now : Yes, I think JKR has a soft spot for Severus :) This book (HBP) has been a revelation for me. Til now I was a Snape-hater, I reckoned him to be a real badass, boo-hiss villain. There's much more depth to his character now. I'm looking forward to Book 7 for the culmination of Hero!Snape. Sev (my old mucker!) he's no wizard killer. DD died of his own accord, no AK could do the job , it was all a ruse for Harry to go and do what he has to do. Oh DD is dead alright, his time had come. He had to go but like the Old Blue Eyes that he is , he did it his way. BTW , pondering on death in the books, every one who has died so far has had corporeal remains except Sirius. Going beyond the veil leaves nothing to mourn, there's no closure. mmmm, more chance of Sirius' 'ressurection' than DD's I reckon, even tho JKR has said Sirius is dead. Or has the veil got the magical property to 'stopper death' ; a sort of holding house for the mortally wounded? Love to hear your responses, Annette. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 3 08:32:55 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:32:55 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" Skipping on items to which I agree. > ** Ron & Hermione (SHIP) It's resolved already. They are together at the end of HBP. > ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help > Harry? I think we'll only see Kreacher and Dobby in minor parts as before... I can't picture Hermione leading an army of liberated elves, can you? :-) > ** Find and destroy ALL the Horcruxes (if Harry does find them, how > on earth is he going to learn how to destroy them when you can't > even find in the entire Hogwarts library what they even are??), Whether Harry likes it or not, he'll have to get help and the trio/order will have to split so that each member can focus on finding and destroying a different Horcrux. I think JKR created so many Horcruxes to ensure that he cannot win alone. > find > and destroy Voldemort! I think Voldemort will find Harry, not the other way around... > ** Who is RAB? Regulus Black? Since we ALL called this one, could > it be a red herring??? In her interview JKR all but confirmed that and as others posted, in OoP 12 Grimauld Place contained a golden locket, although who knows what Mundungus has done with it... > ** Harry & Ginny back together? Oh that is abundantly clear. JKR also hinted that in her interview (saying she always meant for him to leave her and come back...). > ** Luna??? Is ANYTHING she says for real? That will probably never be resolved. You could add Trelawny to that question (actually a startling number of her predictions have actually happened)... :-) > ** Droobles Best Blowing Gum wrappers? Do the Longbottoms > recover? Does Neville find the way? No. JKR pretty much said in her interview (from hazy memory) that she created that Gum wrapper scene based on a true life story of a friend's family member who was mentally incapacitated but communicated similarly. No secret messages - just a tender moment in the story. > ** What happened to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia? Do we care? It served its purpose (give the owner self confidence and courage). > ** What is Harry's other pet? Does he get Fawkes? That's my guess too, although I can't think of him as a "pet"... > ** Does someone get Bellatrix Black? I'd really like to see her > bite the dust, personally. I believe Neville will do it... > ** Dumbledore's portrait - I don't think it will be able to give > Harry any useful advice, but I'm sure he will try to speak with it > anyway. The dead Headmasters portraits seem to do nothing except obey the living Headmaster orders and make small talk. I doubt that Dumbledore's portrait can continue to mentor and help Harry. He'll have to figure his way for himself. Salit From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 08:47:00 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:47:00 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136192 Jana Wrote: "- You accused Harry of abusing Ginny" Del replies: I DID NOT. I only said that the silence about what is actually going on between Harry and Ginny COULD be interpreted that way. That was in response to all those people who were telling me to use my imagination to fill in the blanks. Well, I did. Jana wrote: "and you did question JK's writing" Del replies: Yes, I did. So what? Where does it say I shouldn't do that? Jana wrote: and you did want to see more romance. Del replies: Not exactly. As I said in my post, I would have been absolutely fine with Harry not getting any girlfriend. However, JKR made the choice to give him one, and not just any girlfriend either, but The One She Had Foreshadowed For Him Since The Beginning. She was free to make that choice, but once she made it, I find it very bad manners to not let her readers in on what is going on between them. *Especially* when she then goes raving in *interviews* about how Ginny is the Perfect Match for Harry and so on. She should have shown that *in the book*. Jana wrote: "I asked my daughter(13)" Del replies: Excuse me, but I don't care what your daughter thinks. My concern is not for those girls who have mothers who supervise what they are reading and who discuss issues with them. Moreover, your daughter is only 13, and I supposed she hasn't seriously fallen in love yet. Wait until she does. You might be surprised by the warped view of love and romance that she will then exhibit. Jana wrote: "I hope this subject closes soon too because that's about all I've seen lately. I think we'd all like to talk about somthing else , but it's hard when you bring up and say such controversal things." Del replies: EXCUSE ME??? You are totally out of bounds here, Jana. 1. This subject is NOT all we've seen lately. Personally, I have seen WAY too many Snape posts for my liking, but I would never dream to ask any of those who like discussing him to start discussing something else. 2. If you don't like those posts, SKIP THEM!! 3. If I want to discuss those things, then obviously not ALL of us would like to talk about something else. 4. If I want to discuss those things, it is my RIGHT. I am not forcing anyone to answer. If nobody answered me, those threads would stop on their own. You don't like them, it's YOUR problem, not mine. I am NOT going to let you or anyone else tell me what to talk about or not. As long as I respect the group's rules, I'm free to discuss whatever I want, and you are out of bounds to tell me to drop it. Del From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 08:50:03 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:50:03 -0000 Subject: Killing Snape. Who will do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136193 > Tonks_op: > 2. Bella is jealous of being in second place as Snape is now LV's > favorite. She can not bear this and kills Snape. Problem here is > that LV is not going to like that very much. a_svirn: Why should he not? From LV's point of view by killing Dumbledore Snape has served his purpose and now is about as useful as the next DE. Unless LV requires his special expertise in potions and such he would probably be rather amused by any squabble between his minions, whatever the outcome. > Tonks_op: > Harry can not kill Snape, because even Snape knows that Harry can > not and will not, and MUST NOT do an AK. So we can rule that option > out. a_svirn: Well, he may use one of the Snape's own inventions. His jinxes can be just as deadly if not treated immediately and correctly. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 3 08:55:47 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:55:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: [Regarding my theory about Snape's plan to take over after Harry kills Voldemort] > colebiancardi: > this theory, in several forms, has been posted before. I have even > posted it, but not as well-thought out and neatly summarized as your post. > > I like to call it the TW!Snape - Top Wizard Snape theory, for a lack > of a better term, as no one has come up with one yet :) so I did :) :) LOL. I did not know it was posted before. Too many posts to read... Sorry. Salit From Nanagose at aol.com Wed Aug 3 09:01:56 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:01:56 -0000 Subject: Prophecy # 1: Wait A Second In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136195 > ME (CINDY): > This really got my attention too! I could not understand how they > could be interrupted mid-prophecy, and then continue on after a > commotion like that. This has me very confused. If Snape did hear > the entire prophecy, and at that time he was working for Voldemort, > then Voldemort would know the whole prophecy - which of course he > doesn't as was proven in OoP. Christina: I was confused too, but there's actually (what I believe to be) a decent explanation for it. I posted it back in message #134711, but, keeping in mind the fact that this list generates a mind-boggling amount of email, here's the basic jist: When the door flew open, the barkeep was already engaged in a conversation with Snape. The timeline makes sense if you figure Snape hears the first few lines of the prophecy, and then the barkeep spots him lurking at the door and says something to the effect of, "Hey, you! What do you think you're doing?" Snape was already starting to make excuses and the conversation must have become quite heated for the door to burst open like it did. Trelawney says there was a "commotion" in the hallway, and Snape was "waffling" (ie, speaking evasively) when the door opened, so I would think that Snape and the barkeep would have had to be talking for a minute or two between the time Snape was noticed (and therefore would have stopped listening to Trelawney) and the time the door actually opened. This would have given Trelawney enough time to finish out the prophecy. I always thought it was strange that the prophecy is given in full and then the first line is repeated. This would explain that, by saying that the prophecy might have repeated itself had the door not burst open, or by saying that the prophecy wasn't complete to begin with and the door snapped Trelawney out of her "trance." I hope that's clear. I'm pretty sleep-deprived at the moment :) > Cindy: > Also, did Trelawney know Snape? How could she remember it was Snape > who barged in? Christina: Good point. I don't think it's clear as to whether Trelawney knew Snape and recognized him when he walked in (and knew he was looking for a job *at that time*), or formally met Snape later (and later found out that he had been looking for a job) and filled in her memory. That's a really interesting question, though. Perhaps they knew each other from their Hogwarts days? I don't think they'd be more than a few years apart in age. Come to think of it, we really don't know very much about Trelawney's past at all, which I suppose probably isn't too relevant, but would be interesting nonetheless. Christina From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Aug 3 09:28:40 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:28:40 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136196 ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help Harry? Kreacher probably has the locket. At some point someone will remember the locket (probably Hermione) and then Harry will ask Kreacher where it is. He may even tell Harry how he & Regulus actually got the locket. ** Find and destroy ALL the Horcruxes (if Harry does find them, how on earth is he going to learn how to destroy them when you can't even find in the entire Hogwarts library what they even are??), In a scene in the Burrow in HBP Bill is referred to as a curse breaker. I think he will be dealing with at least one Horcrux, if not all of them! find and destroy Voldemort! I think Voldemort will be at Hogwarts. Makes sense for the final confrontation to be there. Harry will get in using the Marauder's map. ** Who is RAB? Regulus Black? Since we ALL called this one, could it be a red herring??? Definitely Regulus. His note suggests that he intended to destroy the Horcrux. It seems from OOTP that the curse is in place. Did he die trying to destroy it? Kreacher might know?? Brothergib From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 3 09:29:53 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:29:53 -0400 Subject: Is Sirius really dead? Message-ID: <006001c5980d$e86950a0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136197 Twinkeles said >>I do not think that Sirius Black is dead. He however passed through the veil, and due to Harry, Hermione and Ron's good relationship with the dead will be able to pass through once more and get him out. Anyone with a comment or theory please reply. CathyD said: I think Sirius is really dead. I think JKR has made that very clear in some of her interviews. Possibly to the point of a "Yes, sorry" kind of answer. I think she's also made it clear, that in her books, dead is dead. Dumbledore's response to Sirius about Cedric comes to mind. Nearly Headless Nick seems to *know* that Sirius won't be coming back. We've already had one 'apparently' dead person come back to life: Peter Pettigrew. The whole wizarding world believed him dead, believed that Sirius murdered him and a street-full of Muggles. Yet we now know he's back, walking and talking and spying on Snape. Aside, am I the only one who found Nick's comments very gut-wrenching? " 'I chose to remain behind. I sometimes wonder whether I oughtn't to have ... well that is neither here nor there ... *in fact, I am neither here not there* ...' He gave a small chuckle." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samwisep at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 09:32:59 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:32:59 -0000 Subject: Re Ghouls and Inferni Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136198 ("A slow-acting potion or slow-acting venom which might change a perfectly good live individual into an Inferus (sing.?) could account for the death of Regulus Black and the disappearance of his body. The bodies in the lake had to come from somewhere. Regulus is said to have lived for three days before he was killed. That's slow-acting enough to make him a candidate, IMO, for a new body in the lake. It could also account for the stress in HBP on poisons that have no antidote. If someone turned into an Inferus (?), would they be immediately animated to go to a specific place so they could all attack together when the time arrived?)" Cerid. Now me: This post made me think of something..I've had a revelation! OK, IF whoever drank the potion would eventually turn into Inferni, could this be why Dumbledore was asking Snape(in theory) to AK him? Because he didn't want to end up as an Inferni? Just my HO BUT, I really think I am on to something here! Snapeo'phile From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 3 09:35:00 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:35:00 -0400 Subject: accidental horcrux Message-ID: <006601c5980e$9f22cfb0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136199 Elaine >>Ok this is totally off the wall but lets just say the voice we hear at godrix hollow you know "take Harry and run" was not James but Snape (as has been suggested here before, and would explain JKR cutting James from that movie scene) CathyD now: But Harry has heard Snape's voice for 6 years, and he heard the the voice in your quote which he presumed to be James, then he heard James' voice during the Priori Incantatem with Voldemort. Don't you think he would have noticed if they were the same? That doesn't preclude Snape being at Goderic's Hollow, just that I don't think it was Severus telling Lily to go. That scene cut also led to a great pile of speculation that James and Lupin had switched bodies and that Lupin, in POA, was really James. JKR squashed that quite soundly when she said that James would never have left his wife and son to die while protecting himself. Somebody - obviously - had to have been with Voldemort at Goderic's Hollow. Voldemort's body was gone (if it didn't just *poof*) and his wand was gone and ended up back in his possession. We know he couldn't hold a wand in his VapourMort state, he says so in GOF. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samwisep at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 10:10:42 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:10:42 -0000 Subject: Re Ghouls and Inferni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136200 Sorry for reposting on my posting BUT, I possiably didn't give Cerid enough credit. After I re-read his post,it was obvious to me that he (or she)was making my same point.(((blush))))) So I am very sorry for taking credit for thier idea!It was very Slythering of me. Sanapeophile --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > > ("A slow-acting potion or slow-acting venom which might change a > perfectly good live individual into an Inferus (sing.?) could account > for the death of Regulus Black and the disappearance of his body. The > bodies in the lake had to come from somewhere. Regulus is said to > have > lived for three days before he was killed. That's slow-acting enough > to make him a candidate, IMO, for a new body in the lake. It could > also account for the stress in HBP on poisons that have no antidote. > If someone turned into an Inferus (?), would they be immediately > animated to go to a specific place so they could all attack together > when the time arrived?)" > > > Cerid. > > Now me: > This post made me think of something..I've had a revelation! OK, IF > whoever drank the potion would eventually turn into Inferni, could > this be why Dumbledore was asking Snape(in theory) to AK him? Because > he didn't want to end up as an Inferni? > Just my HO BUT, I really think I am on to something here! > > Snapeo'phile From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 11:42:25 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:42:25 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's transformation (Was: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > After framing Hagrid and creating the diary as a kind of amateur > pseudo-Horcrux, he leaves Hogwarts for the summer, kills his father > and grandparents, and comes back with the object that he intends to > make into his first real Horcrux, the ring. He does not yet know how > to do it, or even exactly what a Horcrux is, and the information > Slughorn gives him, though helpful, is not sufficient to enable him to > make one. Nor, as we know from Hermione's efforts, is this information > available at Hogwarts. So, as you say, he needed a mentor. We don't > see Tom during his seventh year at Hogwarts, but it could be that he > used the summer between his sixth and seventh years to visit > Grindelwald (surely this is the reason Grindelwald has been mentioned > in the earlier books?) and create his first real Horcrux. Cynnie36: I think its certain that Grindelwald gave Tom the Horcrux information. From the Mugglenet site JKR interview, this is the response that JKR gave when asked if Grindlewald was dead (yes) and is he important (she went quiet then answered very carefully :) JKR: I'm going to tell you as much as I told someone earlier who asked me. You know Owen who won the [UK television] competition to interview me? He asked about Grindelwald [pronounced "Grindelvald" HMM ]. He said, "Is it coincidence that he died in 1945," and I said no. It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on. So Grindlewald died in 1945--does that fit into the Tom Riddle - Mentor!Gindlewald theory? Teaching Tom Riddle about how to make Horcruxes would definitely be high on the list for Dumbledore to want to defeat him--then go back to Hogwarts and scour the place for this information to keep other students from being curious, even forbidding them to discuss it. Perhaps Tom even witnessed this defeat, learning firsthand just how powerful DD was. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 11:48:14 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:48:14 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136202 > > Allie wrote: > > ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help > Harry? > What I would really like to know with regards to house-elves is whether Harry is going to help them. a_svirn From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 11:53:00 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:53:00 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing in OOTP for Snape the Spider... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136203 >From 7/19/05: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132914 vmonte: OotP, Ch. 6: "They found an unpleasant-looking silver instrument, something like a many -legged pair of tweezers, which scuttled up Harry's arm like a spider when he picked it up, and attempted to puncture his skin; Sirius seized it and smashed it with a heavy book entitled Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy. There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them could open, a number of ancient seals and, in a dusty box, an Order of Merlin, First Class, that had been awarded to Sirius's grandfather for "Services to the Ministry." With all the references to spiders in HBP and in particular to Snape's character: "Spinner's End" and Harry description of Snape as spider- like in "Snape's Worst Memory," does the above passage sound like foreshadowing? The unpleasant spider-like instrument--could it be Snape? I like what Sirius uses to smash the spider. What is the importance of Snape's HBP moniker? (Besides the fact that it's creepy and sounds like something an evil overlord would do.) Does Snape think that Voldemort's power as a wizard is due to the fact that he had one muggle parent and one full blood parent? Is Snape comparing himself to Riddle: "The Dark Lord?" Because this super villain title then makes sense. Will a Black squash Snape in book 7? Is Regulus alive and hiding out as Aberforth? What about Ginny and the music box. Is it possible that Regulus got a hold of two horcruxes? Maybe he just didn't have a chance to destroy them or he didn't know how. The sinister music reminds me of the song Snape sang to cure Draco. And we already know that the locket is the horcrux that Regulus took from the lake. That needs to be located. Interesting that Aberforth was talking to Mundungus at Dumbledore's funeral. And that Mundungus was stealing items from the Black house. Vivian From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 11:52:20 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:52:20 -0000 Subject: What's "Shipping" mean? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136204 I've noticed in a lot of posts the word 'ship' usually in capitals, and also used as 'shipping'. Sorry to raise a few groans, but what does it mean? From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 11:57:23 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:57:23 -0000 Subject: Are house elves invisible at times? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136205 I was just wondering. In the HBP, Dobbie and the other House Elf (the name escapes me) follow Draco to see what he's up to - neither of them are particularly intelligent and I wouldn't class either of them as being on the Sherlock Holmes level of investigating, so to avoid raising Dracos' suspcions (or those around him) does it say anywhere in the books if House Elves ever invisible? They can apparate all over the place as shown by Dobbie when he appears at the Dursley's place, and in the hospital as well, in one of the previous stories. So do their magical powers extend further, because I reckon Draco would have spotted an ex-Malfoy House Elf acting suspiciously. Just a thought! Sandra From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 11:58:03 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:58:03 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 - the locket In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136206 Brothergib wrote: Kreacher probably has the locket. At some point someone will rememberthe locket (probably Hermione) and then Harry will ask Kreacher whereit is. He may even tell Harry how he & Regulus actually got the locket. Rivkahanki wrote: They have seen and touched the Locket Horcrux. It was in the cabinetin 12 Grimmauld Pl - They were cleaning - "a heavy locket that noneof them could open" JKR never says if Sirius threw it away. Kreacher could have it - or Mundungus. now Marianne S: I find both of these statements plausible. I wonder then, does Kreacher have his little Black Family Shrine-like collection with him at Hogwarts? Or, if Mundungus got to it, was he able to sell it (since people _might_ not want to buy a locket that doesn't open) or could Aberforth Dumbledore possibly have it (because wasn't the barman from the Hogs Head the person Harry saw Mundungus with, along with the Black family goblets)? How is it that Harry, Ron, and Hermione don't know his identity, anyway? Marianne S From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Wed Aug 3 12:16:04 2005 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:16:04 -0000 Subject: accidental horcrux In-Reply-To: <006601c5980e$9f22cfb0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Elaine > > >>Ok this is totally off the wall but lets just say the voice we hear > at godrix hollow you know "take Harry and run" was not James but > Snape (as has been suggested here before, and would explain JKR > cutting James from that movie scene) > > CathyD now: > > But Harry has heard Snape's voice for 6 years, and he heard the the voice in your quote which he presumed to be James, then he heard James' voice during the Priori Incantatem with Voldemort. Don't you think he would have noticed if they were the same? That doesn't preclude Snape being at Goderic's Hollow, just that I don't think it was Severus telling Lily to go. That scene cut also led to a great pile of speculation that James and Lupin had switched bodies and that Lupin, in POA, was really James. JKR squashed that quite soundly when she said that James would never have left his wife and son to die while protecting himself. > > Somebody - obviously - had to have been with Voldemort at Goderic's Hollow. Voldemort's body was gone (if it didn't just *poof*) and his wand was gone and ended up back in his possession. We know he couldn't hold a wand in his VapourMort state, he says so in GOF. > And now Oiram: I believe that Pettigrew was there. It makes sense: 1- He told Voldemort where were the Potters 2- He was an average wizard but still, he was able to cast a very powerful spell tat killed several muggles at the same time, probably using Voldemort's wand (maybe a wand retains some of its owners powers, after having been used for a while) 3- He hid the wand, and gave it back to Voldemort at the end of GOF. Makes sense? From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 13:04:47 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:04:47 -0000 Subject: accidental horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiramertip" wrote: > And now Oiram: > > I believe that Pettigrew was there. It makes sense: > 1- He told Voldemort where were the Potters > 2- He was an average wizard but still, he was able to cast a very > powerful spell tat killed several muggles at the same time, probably > using Voldemort's wand (maybe a wand retains some of its owners > powers, after having been used for a while) > 3- He hid the wand, and gave it back to Voldemort at the end of GOF. > > Makes sense? --- Inge: If Wormtail used Voldemort's wand to do the mugglekilling it probably would've showed at the Prior Incantatem in the Graveyard-scene? From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Aug 3 13:07:43 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:07:43 -0000 Subject: What's "Shipping" mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: > I've noticed in a lot of posts the word 'ship' usually in capitals, > and also used as 'shipping'. Sorry to raise a few groans, but > what does it mean? Hickengruendler: It's short for "relationship", meaning the romantic relatiosnhip between some characters. A Ron/Hermione shipper is someone, who wants Ron and Hermione to become a couple. Hickengruendler From samwisep at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 13:15:51 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:15:51 -0000 Subject: Rufus Scrimgeour+werewolf? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136210 Hi Potterphiles! Please forgive me if this is brought up before, but I was re-reading HPB just now and I read this text: ("There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace.") Ok, this might sound crazy BUT do you think he could be a werewolf? Weren't they decribed as "loping" before? I thought for sure I had read that before in reference to werewolves. I do understand, however, how much the wizarding community in general distrusts them. Snapeo'phile From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 13:22:27 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:22:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136211 Salit wrote: So... we have been arguing whether Snape's real allegiance was on DD's side or on LV's side. What if it is to neither? What if Snape (arguably the most talented wizard we've seen after DD and LV) really wants to rule the roost and not follow anyone's orders? vmonte: 7/19/05 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132929 vmonte: The real villian is Snape and he has been working slowly to get rid of his two biggest threats... Vivian From prep0strus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 13:34:36 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:34:36 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and me (was : Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > "I see a relationship in which the boy calls the shots and the girl > meekly accepts his decisions." - Del > > I have to disagree with this. Harry simply makes the decision that he > doesn't wish to be with Ginny as he goes through the challenges he is In addition, as far as breakups go... I'm sure most of us have seen that episode of Seinfeld... it's not like launching nuclear missiles, you don't both have to turn your keys at the same time. Whatever other decisions in a relationship may be made together, breaking up (as I have recently again found out) isn't one of them. ~Prep0strus From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 3 13:35:17 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:35:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136213 First Alla: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136154 Alla wrote: I don't see him as a ruler, but I most definitely see him as someone who has delusions of grandeur. The man in his late thirties screams " I , half blood prince". Considering the fact that it was the name he created for himself as a child, I find it pretty pathetic,to put it mildly. Then Lealess: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136173 lealess: I think Snape leaving Hogwarts raved about "the Half-Blood Prince" not because he is a megalomaniac, but because he has just killed someone he probably valued and is heading into who-knows-what danger, with his life in a shambles, and here is this kid using a spell Snape invented, from a book the kid baldly lied to him about possessing. Just enough to drive anyone spare, I'd say. Now Potioncat: Really seems hokey, doesn't it? It sounds like something out of an old B movie. (Probably with Lon Chaney, Jr. as the werewolf.) But let's back up a little. Slughorn's Christmas party; Slughorn has just praised Harry's exceptional potion making skills and offers credit to Snape. "Snape looked down his hooked nose at Harry, his black eyes narrowed. `Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all.'" Slughorn then calls it natural ability, says how well Potter did at Draught of Living Death, and starts to make a reference to Severus but is interrupted, "'Really?" said Snape quietly, his eye still boring into Harry, who felt a certain disquiet." Next we have the Sectumsempra incident. "Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic? Who taught you that spell?" Harry is aware that Snape is using Legilimency: "the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making swam hazily to forefront of his mind. And then he was staring at Snape again." I'm not sure if Harry blocked the intrusion or if Snape stopped it himself. He sends Harry for his books all of his books. Snape looks at all of them, saving the potions book for last. He even looks for the name in the front cover, but it isn't very obvious that he knows what he's looking for, is it? Harry has no idea that Snape knows about the book. In following up on Snape's detention, the first offense that Harry recorded was an illegal spell...I wonder if Snape's detention had a purpose we haven't yet appreciated? Now we're at the final battle, depending on your point of view, Snape has either been toying with Potter or teaching him. Harry's attempt at Sectumsempra is merely blocked, but his attempt at Levicorpus invites anger. "You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them?I, the Half-Blood Prince!" By now Snape is angry, but he will still simply keep Harry's wand out of reach. He's also telling Harry who the Half-Blood Prince was. He isn't saying I "am" the Half-Blood Prince, he's saying he "was" the Half-Blood Prince. It proved to Harry both that he knew where the spells came from and that he had been the owner of the book. Now, I wonder, how will that help Harry next year? Keep your mouth shut, close your mind, don't use my spells against me.... From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 13:38:33 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:38:33 -0000 Subject: Rufus Scrimgeour+werewolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > Please forgive me if this is brought up before, but I was re-reading > HPB just now and I read this text: > ("There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy > eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed > spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace.") > > Ok, this might sound crazy BUT do you think he could be a werewolf? > Weren't they decribed as "loping" before? I thought for sure I had > read that before in reference to werewolves. > > I do understand, however, how much the wizarding community in general > distrusts them. > > Snapeo'phile I think you should set up a society with Luna ? she suggested that Scrimgeour was a vampire Anyway, Lupin doesn't seem to possess of any grace, loping or otherwise. Every time Harry sees him he has a sort of weary air, as if he's on his last legs. And Scrimgeour was described as a large feline rather than large canine. a_svirn From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 3 14:00:11 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:00:11 -0000 Subject: Nott & Zabini (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: <20050803052835.60050.qmail@web60315.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136215 Dave wrote: > Our group is being overwhelmed by so many of these articles. To give everyone time to catch up, Can we declare a 30 day moratorium on any discussion of Severus Snape? Potioncat: A poisoned mushroom doesn't change its spots, Dave. So, no we can't. But, I'd be glad to discuss other topics as well. Let's try Theodore Nott. Who was surprised that Theodore Nott didn't play a bigger role in this book? Or even that we never found out about his father's injuries? Theo was vaguely described in OoP, even to point of pointedly not being named by Hagrid; then was mentioned with Draco reading Harry's accusation of their fathers. In HBP he's named (or not) under circumstances that tell us 1) He isn't hanging out with the other Slytherins on the train. 2) Because of his father's reputation, he isn't invited to join the Slug Club. 3) he isn't mentioned as being in Potions, but could be the 4th Slytherin student. So does anyone think he'll play a part in the next book? Now, I wasn't looking for this, and there's a long story about how I found it (that I won't tell) but here is a little tidbit from "Walking the Bridge of Your Nose" uner the chapter Tombstone Tomfoolery: On Mrs Nott Nott Born. Nott Dead. Nott Christened. Nott Begot: Lo Here she lies Who was and Who was Nott. We'll have to wait and see if he'll be: Nott,Important. Instead of Nott gaining importance, it's Zabini that gets page time. We learn that Blaise is Black and that Blaise's mother is a widow 7 times over. I wonder if all her husbands were named Henry and if she's on the eigth one now? Potioncat, humming Herman's Hermits' "Henry the Eighth" From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 10:59:16 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:59:16 -0000 Subject: Re Ghouls and Inferni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136216 Snapeophile wrote: > Sorry for reposting on my posting BUT, I possiably didn't give > Cerid enough credit. After I re-read his post,it was obvious to me > that *she* was making my same point.(((blush))))) So I am very > sorry for taking credit for thier idea!It was very Slythering of me. cerid: Then we're both Slytherin. I got the idea from a post here by Deb. The book says there are poisons for which there is no cure, then goes on to contrast them with the poison in the mead, for which a bezoar is a cure, and the note in the HBP's book stating to simply shove a bezoar down their throats. The idea that the potion in the pensieve was just part of a complete mixture was suggested by Deb, too, reinforced by an old hobby during high school involving epoxy. At the time, epoxy came in two tubes, and had to be mixed at use to create the glue. So, potion + lake water = full potion to create Inferi. And Harry's only recourse for water when Dumbledore begged for a drink, was the lake water. Snapeo'phile: >IF whoever drank the potion would eventually turn into Inferni, could > this be why Dumbledore was asking Snape(in theory) to AK him? > Because he didn't want to end up as an Inferni? cerid: I don't think that Dumbledore planned to die quite then, personally. I do think this was him turning a situation to his advantage. Given that he lost so much time, I believe he was already on his way toward becoming an Undead. I think that his words to Draco, that LV couldn't kill him if he was already dead, was also a covert message to Harry that Dumbledore was already a dead man walking, so he couldn't be killed. Because Snape was on his way, too slowly to counter the potion, but able enough to off Dumbledore when he saw the state he was in. Whether by pre-existing plan, or a vague request/order at some earlier time (If you see me dying slowly and painfully, do the deed, there are worse things than death). I do believe, as you say, that Dumbledore does not wish to end up as an Inferi. Maybe this is one of those things worse than death. I think Deb mentioned that as well in Message 135647. I can understand a man like Dumbledore blanching at becoming a mindless, soulless tool of Voldemort against his own people. The shock value alone against his own troops would be devastating. Not to mention the loss of dignity! I believe that when Snape appeared, Dumbledore felt safe enough to show his true state, hence the sudden weakening of his voice, the pitiful pleading. He was in pain, he trusted Snape to save him from it one way or another. Showing, IMO of course, that he did indeed trust Snape with his life, or with snuffing his life when the situation demanded. Maybe they had a sort of Living Will pact? Or, maybe there were signs showing clearly that Dumbledore was becoming an Inferus (?) that Harry, being so new to the idea at all, missed? The whitening, which he did see, for example, when he notices that Draco was turning as white as Dumbledore. And, the AK. Is Snape just an explosive spell caster? The Expeliarmus against Lockhart, then the AK against Dumbledore? Or was it as another poster (sorry, still too new to remember just who, apologies to that person!) suggested, and the AK was weak/not meant, and Dumbledore offed himself, as shown by the spell on Harry not releasing until Dumbledore had the time to reach the ground? Not quite being 'already dead' when Snape performed the curse, yet not being dead because of it. There's a lot to think of in this book, which is why I like it so much. It's becoming my favorite of the six so far. And I love reading the discussions. My brain's being stimulated, which is a good thing in the summer doldrums with the bored kids around the house chafing to get back to school. I expect twists, HBP was nothing like I expected. It could be that we're all reading too much into it, no matter which side we're on, and Snape only knows how to do what he's told and not think beyond that, come Book 7. Still, it's fun to speculate! cerid From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 14:16:54 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:16:54 -0000 Subject: Killing Snape. Who will do it?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136217 "Tonks" wrote: > If Snape is truly Evil If?! > then he is now more evil that LV. > LV seems in second place as a > villain now and that just can't be. Why not, the more villains the better? I'm beginning to think Harry might kill Voldemort half way through book 7 and then he must face the ultimate villain of the series. > If Snape does something even > somewhat heroic at this point > Snape will seem to be a Hero Nothing is that heroic, no amount of daring do can make up for the fact that Snape murdered the wisest kindest character in the books, it's just unforgivable. > Harry can not kill Snape, because > even Snape knows that Harry can not > and will not, and MUST NOT do an AK. Snape told Harry not to use unforgivable curses but Harry has used them before and he's unlikely to follow Snape's advice at this point. Besides, AK is not the only way to kill someone. Eggplant From clinicallydead2003 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 11:08:12 2005 From: clinicallydead2003 at yahoo.com (pam) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:08:12 -0000 Subject: Is Sirius really dead? In-Reply-To: <006001c5980d$e86950a0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136218 Twinkeles said: >>I do not think that Sirius Black is dead. He however passed through the veil, and due to Harry, Hermione and Ron's good relationship with the dead will be able to pass through once more and get him out. << CathyD said: > I think Sirius is really dead. I think JKR has made that very > clear in some of her interviews. Possibly to the point of a "Yes, > sorry" kind of answer. I think she's also made it clear, that in her > books, dead is dead. Dumbledore's response to Sirius about Cedric > comes to mind. Nearly Headless Nick seems to *know* that Sirius > won't be coming back. > > We've already had one 'apparently' dead person come back to life: > Peter Pettigrew. What about Dumbledore's line in the American version of the HBP that was removed for the British version? The line goes something like this...'Sometimes those who appear to be dead are not really dead at all'... Perhaps he was referring to Sirius, perhaps to himself???? Any comments? Pam From samwisep at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 14:24:08 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:24:08 -0000 Subject: Rufus Scrimgeour+werewolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136219 Doesn't is say, about Sirus, that when in dog form he "loped"? That is what gave me the idea of Scrimgeour being a werewolf. And as for me and luna setting up a society together...well, I thought everyone was(supposedly)tired of the same discussions, and I thought this would make for a different topic. Snapeophile -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > > Hi Potterphiles! > > Please forgive me if this is brought up before, but I was re- reading > > HPB just now and I read this text: > > ("There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy > > eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire- rimmed > > spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace.") > > > > Ok, this might sound crazy BUT do you think he could be a werewolf? > > Weren't they decribed as "loping" before? I thought for sure I had > > read that before in reference to werewolves. > > > > I do understand, however, how much the wizarding community in > general > > distrusts them. > > > > Snapeo'phile > > I think you should set up a society with Luna ? she suggested that > Scrimgeour was a vampire > > Anyway, Lupin doesn't seem to possess of any grace, loping or > otherwise. Every time Harry sees him he has a sort of weary air, as if > he's on his last legs. And Scrimgeour was described as a large feline > rather than large canine. > > a_svirn From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 12:16:28 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:16:28 -0000 Subject: Are house elves invisible at times? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136220 Sandra: > does it say anywhere in the books if House Elves > ever invisible? They can apparate all over the place as shown by > Dobbie when he appears at the Dursley's place, and in the > hospital as well, in one of the previous stories. So do their > magical powers extend further, because I reckon Draco would > have spotted an ex-Malfoy House Elf acting suspiciously. > Just a thought! Yes, they are invisible. See Chamber of Secrets, PoA, and GoF. And even though, most of us don't suspect Malfoy spotting the house elves, if it where true, where are you going with this? What do you have in mind? Dilia From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 14:32:36 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:32:36 -0700 Subject: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004901c59838$32c97060$8424f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 136221 Now me: I actually think there is a fair bit to be said against the way male/ female relationships are portrayed in general in the HP series but that is another post (and a long one at that). Realistic some may think them but almost all the romantic relationships in the HP universe are stereotypes of one sort or another (IMO). They subvert nothing, challenge nothing and ultimately, for all the strength in the female characters, paint a very comfortable patriarchal view of the world. And it disappoints me because I think she had the ability to do better. JMO, as always. Sienna Sherry now: And yet, in the series, *mothers* are portrayed as the ones who are the loving, wonderful, giving, life sacrificing parental figures. Even Narcissa comes off sympathetic in her role as mother. Fathers, however, don't come off too well, From James to Lucius, they are portrayed as less in some way. As someone who came from a non-traditional upbringing, being raised by my father because my biological mother didn't want the responsibility of a disabled child, i have always had a problem with the way fathers are brushed aside in the name of the all perfect mother. i think we bring so much to our readings of these books that is based in what reality is for us, our lives, our values. This ongoing debate over Ginny is a good example. I saw Ginny and Harry coming for years, and it seems right and natural to me. But for you and many other readers it was not. Sherry From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 14:43:25 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:43:25 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: <42F03523.000019.01324@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136222 "Donna" wrote: > But it won't be pointless, if > Dumbledore was going to die from > the Potion he drank anyway. It > is mentioned in the book, that > there are Potions for which no > antidote exists, therefore it > should not have been ruled out > that Dumbledore *knew* his days > were numbered. But how could Snape have known what the potion was or known that Dumbledore drank it or even know that there was a potion? Until just a few minutes before even Dumbledore didn't know there was a potion. > And in this case the sacrifice makes > sense, because otherwise Snape would > have died as well(see the Unbreakable Vow). If Snape is good then he would have to be brain dead dumb to make the Unbreakable Vow, every explanation I've read trying to explain this away are lame in the extreme. Eggplant From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Wed Aug 3 12:30:19 2005 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:30:19 EDT Subject: Not to sound like the Psychology major that I am, but... Message-ID: <1c7.2dba7fca.302212db@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136223 Throughout reading Harry Potter there are a few things I have observed: 1. Could Serveus Snape be a High functioning Autistic? He shows IMHO a lot of signs such as: a) bullied, unpopular b) highly intelligent c) somewhat cold and lacks empathy d) poor social skills e) very adept in specific areas like Potions and DADA 2. Draco Malfoy seems to me like he could have some kind of disruptive behavior disorder like ADHD, ODD, Conduct Disorder, or a mood disorder like Bipolar Disorder, he obviously has ups and downs. He seems to have no remorse or regard for the rules and to be somewhat high-strung and destructive. 3. Hermione Granger and Percey Weasley seem to be intellectually gifted. 4. Neville Longbottom seems to have some kind of Learning Disability or ADD. I don't think he's truly a "duffer" since he does so well in subjects like Herbology, Charms, etc. 5. Obviously stated in canon that Hannah Abott has anxiety attacks and says that she's too dumb to take the OWLs. -Maggie From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Wed Aug 3 12:27:49 2005 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:27:49 EDT Subject: Blood Status and House Question Message-ID: <195.445918c7.30221245@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136224 I looked up all the students in Harry's year blood status and a few things surprised me: 1. I only counted 5 muggle-borns 2. I counted 15 purebloods, since the Patils are twins that means there's 14 pure blood families: Weasley, Longbottom, Patil, Brown, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Zabini, Parkinson, Greengrass, Cornfoot, McDougal, and MacMillan. So from this I take it that it's rare to be a muggle-born wizard. But the thing that puzzled me was the large amount of pureblood students, I was under the impression that purebloods were rare? I thought most wizards were half-blood? Also, did anyone ever discover who the 6 unidentified students houses are? We can deduct that they're not in Ravenclaw since the dorm rooms are full and that the 2 Griffindors must be girls as well as the one Slytherin. Another question, does being pureblood automatically make someone a candidate for Slytherin? I've deducted that Slytherin is the most elitist house and that Hufflepuff is the least exclusive. I would assume that Gryffindor would be the seccond most exclusive followed by Ravenclaw only becuase Gryffindor and Slytherin seem to have a lot of alumni. One more question, in the 5th book Hufflepuff was described as "I'll take the lot and treat them just the same", does this mean that all the Hufflepuffs are the other houses rejects? because if that were the case I would think Crabbe and Goyle would be in Hufflepuff because they're not Brave, Smart, or Ambitious. -Maggie From rt11guru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 12:57:39 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:57:39 -0000 Subject: How will LV be destroyed? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136225 This all has to end with the total destruction of LV. It's not enough to disarm LV and put him behind bars, he's too powerful for that and has too many supporters. It seems clear to me, that LV has to die. But how can Harry do it? How can our young hero vanquish his sworn enemy? Can HP perform an AK, an unforgivable curse, and get away with it because LV is evil, or is it still unforgivable in any case? Maybe he'll conjure up a tornado and drop a house on him? Wickedness has been put down that way before, but then pure evil is several steps above your garden variety wicked. One possible outcome, is that the life comes full circle. HP and LV meet in Godric's Hollow. VL disarms HP and hits him with another AK. The AK rebounds (you think he would have learned the first time), killing LV. This time, he is clearly and sincerely dead. That keeps Harry from having to use evil to defeat evil. In fact, evil is defeated by its own evilness (evility? evilosity?) offering up the moral lesson of the day: "Live by the AK, die by the AK." Guru From leslie41 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 15:05:22 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:05:22 -0000 Subject: Killing Snape; who will do it In-Reply-To: <6d.4a82a035.3021d6bf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136226 > BTW , pondering on death in the books, every one who has died so > far has had corporeal remains except Sirius. Going beyond the veil > leaves nothing to mourn, there's no closure. mmmm, more chance of > Sirius' 'ressurection' than DD's I reckon, even tho JKR has said > Sirius is dead. Or has the veil got the magical property to 'stopper > death'; a sort of holding house for the mortally wounded? > > Love to hear your responses, Annette. Well, I might think that except JKR did *excplicitly* say that Sirius is absolutely not coming back. Probably not the last we have seen of the veil, tho' From kristin1778 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 13:58:08 2005 From: kristin1778 at yahoo.com (kristin1778) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:58:08 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136227 salit wrote: > > ** Harry & Ginny back together? > Oh that is abundantly clear. JKR also hinted that in her interview > (saying she always meant for him to leave her and come back...). Not to be too picky, but what she actually said is that she always meant for Harry and Ginny to get together and then part. She never said anything about them getting back together. I'm certain they will if Harry survives, but I no longer think Harry surviving is a given. If he doesn't, I bet we get a line tossed into the epilogue about how much time Neville and Ginny are spending together, so we know she's moved on. Kristin From deanlawrence_us at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 14:51:34 2005 From: deanlawrence_us at yahoo.com (Dean) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:51:34 -0000 Subject: Thematic thoughts on Book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136228 JKR has suggested that there is a biblical parallel in the Harry Potter series and that we might use that information to see where the story will go in book 7. Here is my take on the subject. The main theme of the New Testament is that Jesus Christ, who had not sinned, sacrificed himself so that we sinners might have a chance at redemption. Sub-themes include living a life that reflects your beliefs, i.e., living a good life, defending the religion, and spreading the message of Jesus Christ to as many as will listen. If there is a biblical parallel in the Harry Potter series, then the Christ figure is obviously Dumbledore. He is unerringly good and capable of sacrificing himself to the greater well-being of mankind, both Wizard and Muggle. The combination of Dumbledore and the phoenix provides us a more "complete" Christ-figure. The phoenix is a symbol of everlasting, eternal life: like Christ, when a Phoenix dies, he is resurrected. Like Christ, he has the power to heal. His song brings hope and joy to listeners. Dumbledore is constantly associated with the phoenix: he keeps one as a pet; his Patronus is a phoenix; Harry thinks he sees a phoenix rising as Dumbledore is entombed, which suggests that perhaps Harry is seeing Dumbledore's soul leave his body. Yet, if Dumbledore is the Christ figure, he is less important thematically than the figure represented by Snape. He clearly fulfills the role of Judas Iscariot. Like Judas, Snape may have betrayed Dumbledore to his enemy out of greed -- or perhaps, pride. In order for Snape to need redemption he must have sinned; that is, Snape must have truly betrayed Dumbledore and therefore cannot be in league with him. Snape must have truly returned to the Dark Lord. That is not to say that Snape is entirely evil. It seems unlikely to me that JKR would have gone to such great lengths to keep reminding us that Dumbledore trusts Snape implicitly only to make the rather niggly point that Dumbledore could be wrong in his assessments of people. Clearly there is more to the Dumbledore- Snape relationship than we readers have seen. I believe Dumbledore sees Severus Snape as not too different from Draco Malfoy. He might or might not know of Snape's treachery; JKR hasn't told us. He might or might not know of the Unbreakable Vow; once again, there is no canonical evidence. But he clearly does not view Snape as evil, even if he does know of these things. Perhaps the trust he puts in Snape is not a belief that Snape is not aligned with the Dark Lord, but rather, just like Draco, that when the time comes, that Snape will do the Right Thing. He trusts that Snape, who has saved Harry's life more than once during Harry's stay at Hogwarts, yet who has also abused Harry's, Neville's, and even Hermione's innocence since the they first arrived, will not in the end succumb to the temptation of evil but will rather rise above his anger, jealousy, and pride to come over to the right side. It is also not to say that Snape does not admire and respect Dumbledore; he probably does. Judas admired Jesus. But Judas also thought that Jesus' methods were ineffective in dealing with what he saw as evil embodied (in Judas's case, the Roman occupation of Judea). Snape dislikes what Dumbledore stands for: pure good, success, position, status, respect, and so on. Judas's hatred for Jesus, mixed with his essential greed, eventually destroyed him. Snape's history of hatred for Dumbledore, mixed with his essential jealousy may, in the end, destroy Snape. The question is in the manner of his destruction, because for Snape, it could go either way: he could be destroyed along with Lord Voldemort, or (and this seems more likely, given the facts so far) he could in some way be brought to realize his errors. He may, in the end, like Judas, feel guilt and remorse and a need for repentance; he may be offered, like Judas, a chance at redemption. But unlike Judas, who refused redemption and instead destroyed himself, Snape may choose to accept it. Snape's act of repentance and the actions that result very well may be what saves Harry from being killed by Voldemort and also provides Harry with the means to destroy him. Only such an act would provide Snape with true redemption. Perhaps Snape's act of redemption will also require Snape to sacrifice himself, giving up his very life for Harry's benefit. And finally, those enigmatic words Dumbledore called to Snape just as the Avada Kedavra hit him: "Severus... please...". It is completely out of character for Dumbledore to beg for his life, though Harry thinks that's what he's doing; for Dumbledore, death is just the start of another adventure. No, whatever Dumbledore wanted Snape to do, he clearly intended from the time he drank the potion in the middle of the lake -- that's when he began asking for Snape. But then, if he is NOT pleading for his life on the Astronomy Tower, but what is he pleading for? Popular discussion has it that he is pleading, for various reasons, for Snape TO kill him. That, of course, is a possibility, but only if we assume that Snape is on Dumbledore's side and has told him that he was forced into an Unbreakable Vow. There is no direct (nor even clearly implied, despite our speculations) indication in the Canon that this is so. Under the scenario that I have suggested, Dumbledore may be pleading with Snape to remember that redemption is yet possible; like Draco, Snape can still be redeemed. Or it may be that Dumbledore IS asking for Snape to kill him, not as a result of some plan set between them previously, but because Dumbledore knows that in death he will be more powerful than he ever was in life. If that is true, book 7 becomes a book about Harry Potter in the same way that the original three Star Wars episodes were about Luke Skywalker -- his actions advance the plot and the story is told through his eyes, but the main theme is the redemption of a powerful agent of evil (not the destruction of the evil itself, however -- that will still be the job of the book's hero). Note that Harry, throughout the six books so far, has never faced and defeated Voldemort alone. He has always had help: sometimes Ron and/or Hermione, sometimes Dumbledore, sometimes others, but never using his, and only his, personal power. In this view, Harry is only the catalyst that sets a much grander play into action: a struggle between the very forces of good and evil, and a revelation of what is required for true redemption of sin. In this last part of the play, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, and Luna become Dumbledore's apostles. Draco may yet join them. Certainly the remaining Weasleys, except for Percy, will become disciples, as will Fleur, McGonegal, and others. They will become the Warriors of Good, battling the forces of Evil. Some undoubtedly will die. Among those who live, some will marry and some will become Hogwarts teachers. Thematically, none of that matters. All that matters is that in the end redemption is made possible and evil is destroyed. In brief, I suggest that in the end, Snape will be redeemed, Voldemort will be thereby destroyed, and the kids will carry out Dumbledore's mandate to go out into the world and spread the influence of the goodness of Love. Because that is Dumbledore's message, just as it was Christ's: Love is the strongest magic there is. Dean From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 15:12:20 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:12:20 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136229 Eggplant wrote: > If Snape is good then he would have to be brain dead dumb to make the > Unbreakable Vow, every explanation I've read trying to explain this > away are lame in the extreme. > Hi There! I found this to be the single most problematic action in the book, personally. You consider the explanations you've seen presented here lame. Do you have a better one? Preemptively, I would like to point out the three word annswer "Snape is evil" is not the answer to every question about Snape. I am quite willing to entertain the idea that Snape is evil, either a loyal DE, or in it for himslef somehow, and evil. The problem is that Snape is not stupid. An evil Snape who cares about noone/nothing but himself ought not take a UV to protect Draco. Why risk his own life in this way? An evil Snape who serves Voldemort especially has no reason to take this vow. Yes, it is a vow to do something Voldemort greatly desires. But Snape can certainly carry out the act without making the Vow. By its nature the Vow limits the actions Snape can take. For two examples: if Draco were to attempt a suicide-style attack on DD, Snape would actually have to protect Draco... for another, if Draco made some hideously unsuccessful overt attempt on DD's life, Snape would be compelled to step in right then. If he's evil, he's been really quite fortunate in the timing of Draco's plan...Draco actually came out into the open at a moment when DD was incredibly vulnerable. From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 13:41:12 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:41:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Killing Snape. Who will do it? In-Reply-To: <1123049678.1970.11500.m4@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123049678.1970.11500.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05080306414e4270d1@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136230 Tonks wrote: > So who will do it? Options: > 1. Lucius finds Snape with Narcissa and kills him in a fit of > rage. NO. This will not happen, because this is a children's book. > > 2. Bella is jealous of being in second place as Snape is now LV's > favorite. She can not bear this and kills Snape. Problem here is > that LV is not going to like that very much. Maybe she can convince > LV that Snape is really still working for DD, but that is unlikely. > > 3. Snape is depressed, guilty (fill in the blank with another word > if you wish) and he kills himself. This would make his Judas to DD's > Christ. Could work, but still not likely. > > 4. A member of the Order kills him. Lupin? > > Harry can not kill Snape, because even Snape knows that Harry can > not and will not, and MUST NOT do an AK. So we can rule that option > out. > > What do you think?? Let the debates begin. ================ Lisa replies: None of the above. ;0) My theory: Set scene: the final showdown - Harry and Voldemort. Snape appears, Harry is now torn - he wants to kill both of them, Voldemort out of necessity, Snape out of revenge. He realizes Snape is on his side when Snape aims a deadly curse at Voldemort, who also realizes what Snape has been doing all along. Voldemort is enraged and kills Snape himself. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 15:34:47 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:34:47 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: <004901c59838$32c97060$8424f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136231 Sherry: > Fathers, however, don't come > off too well, From James to Lucius, they are portrayed as less in > some way. As someone who came from a non-traditional upbringing, > being raised by my father because my biological mother didn't want > the responsibility of a disabled child, i have always had a problem > with the way fathers are brushed aside in the name of the all > perfect mother. Jen: JKR intended to explore the relationship of 'bad fathers', or at least it turned out that way in the end. Here's a comment and explanation by JKR in a July issue of TIME: ***Much of Rowling's understanding of the origins of evil has to do with the role of the father in family life. "As I look back over the five published books," she says, "I realize that it's kind of a litany of bad fathers. That's where evil seems to flourish, in places where people don't get good fathering."*** I'm not sure that's her personal opinion about where evil flourishes so much as she discovered that theme in her own books. She seemed almost surprised by the realization that most of the evil characters have had some type of negative relationship with their fathers-- Voldemort, Barty Crouch, Jr., Draco (not irredeemable of course!), Snape(?? Don't know much about his father) & Morfin, are a few examples. And except for Arthur, the books hardly examine the Good Father. Most of these relationships are for background characters like Amos Diggory, Luna's Dad or James, in the short time he had. So JKR is spending much more page time on the likes of Barty Crouch, Sr., and Tom Riddle, Sr., and how they affected their sons. It was an interesting quote, made me go back and examine a few things in the series. jen R. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Aug 3 15:36:19 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:36:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not to sound like the Psychology major that I am, but... In-Reply-To: <1c7.2dba7fca.302212db@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050803153619.81405.qmail@web86204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136232 --- xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com wrote: > > 1. Could Serveus Snape be a High functioning > Autistic? He shows IMHO a lot of signs such as: > a) bullied, unpopular > b) highly intelligent > c) somewhat cold and lacks empathy > d) poor social skills > e) very adept in specific areas like Potions and > DADA No, he can't. 1. He reads facial expressions and non-verbal signals. 2. He uses sarcasm. Both traits run contrary to ASD diagnosis. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 16:10:30 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:10:30 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's transformation (Was: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136233 >> Jen wrote: > > Is it reasonable he [Tom Riddle] learned to make the Horcruxes immediately after > > that conversation with Slughorn? I'm starting to think not. Where > > would he find out while still at Hogwarts? Did he learn everything > > he needed to know that summer right after the murders? If so, it > > must not be terribly complex. Or he had a mentor. > Carol responds: > the information > Slughorn gives him, though helpful, is not sufficient to enable him to > make one. Nor, as we know from Hermione's efforts, is this information > available at Hogwarts. So, as you say, he needed a mentor. We don't > see Tom during his seventh year at Hogwarts, but it could be that he > used the summer between his sixth and seventh years to visit > Grindelwald (surely this is the reason Grindelwald has been mentioned > in the earlier books?) and create his first real Horcrux. I like your theory about Grindelwald. While I would not put it past Tom Riddle to kill multiple people until he figured out the way to make a Horcrux, getting the information from Grindelwald would be a very reasonable explanation for how he could have learned the technique relatively quickly after his conversation with Slughorn. It would also explain why JKR refused to answer key questions about Grindelwald in her post-HBP interview. Finally, Riddle left Hogwarts in 1945 and Grindelwald died in 1945, so the timelines overlap enough for this to be a plausible scenario. Merrylinks From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 16:13:51 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:13:51 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan? (longish post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136234 Had trouble snipping this and having it make sense, so ... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" Salit: I think that Snape is more of an opportunist, but it is entirely possible that he was party to the trap with the poison otion that needed to be drank to get the fake Horcrux. Frankly I would not put it past him. As one of the 3 top potion makers we know of (Slughorn and Voldemort being the other two) he is a suspect by efault. lealess: He may have concocted the potion, but did he really know who was going to drink it? > Is Snape acting as though he is actually trying to take over the wizarding world? Salit: Wishing to be the top guy does not necessarily imply making concrete plans for the day after... lealess: No, but he might have wanted to start sometime, not in the sixth book with everyone mistrusting him. > (1) Where is he building his base? Does he have followers, like Dumbledore and Voldemort do? Salit: He would be foolish to even try to build a base while Dumbledore and Voldemort are still around. I agree that Snape is not a military/political leader in the way that Voldemort and Dumbledore are. This does not mean he does not wish to be on top. He wants people to respect and fear him at this point. lealess: Where is the evidence of this, besides asking students to call him "sir" or "Professor" (which Dumbledore and others echo)? > (2) Where has Snape tried to exert control over anyone else (successfully, not symbolically) before? Has he been shown to use Imperius, Obliviate, or other mind-control techniques? Salit: He has expert knowledge of at least one Unforgivable Curse which suggests that he must have used it before (perhaps on those poor flies? :-)). He was/is a top level Death Eater. Ergo it is a given that he must have performed nasty stuff. Voldemort keeps his followers pretty busy from early on (standard technique of pimps and drug dealers when introducing new youngsters into the trade is to immerse them in it early on so they can't go back). lealess: Lord of the flies? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) We really don't know what Voldemort asks his followers to do. Snape no doubt knows some dark stuff. But how much of it have we seen him use, except for AK (which may or may not have been) and the curses he invented? > Has he told Big Lies? Salit: Must have, or Dumbledore would not have been so deceived... lealess: Assuming Dumbledore was deceived. Being a spy, he must have colored the truth a few times. I still think his skill is obscuring, perhaps omitting, the truth, not blatently lying. Isn't he turned away from the Black sisters when he says he thinks the Dark Lord means for him to do it? (No book here; I might be wrong.) > Even the (mild and petulant) detentions given to Harry in HBP try to offer suggestion, not mind-altering coercion, about his father and godfather. Salit: If his goals are what I suggested, he must be (and is) very protective of Harry and willing to go out of his way to teach him more, despite hating him. He has to get him shaped up to defeat Voldemort while leaving enough vulnerabilities that he can exploit later, knowing Harry so well. lealess: I can buy this, actually, that Snape insures Harry's safety thinking he will be the one to defeat Voldemort. Whether this is for a selfish or selfless motive is still unclear, as is whether Harry is the one who will defeat Voldemort. > And if he wanted to get the truth from Draco, couldn't he have given him Veratiserum? Salit: Rowling had an explanation on why they don't often work. Check her website. lealess: Still worth a try, though, wouldn't you say? > (3) Who fears Snape? If Bellatrix and the group in the Astronomy Tower are any indication, the Death Eaters respect him, but might not follow him out of fear. Even Wormtail listens in at doors in Snape's own home. Salit: Again, what he wants and what he gets are two different things. That he wants to be feared and is not will only make him more dangerous. I also believe that killing Dumbledore will give him that status among the DE's and the general population. lealess: I think the opposite; killing Dumbledore puts him in more danger from all sides. > (4) Who loves Snape? enough to follow him. Salit: Voldemort does not seem to have any problem getting followers and somehow I can't imagine any of them actually love him! lealess: No disagreement (except for Bellatrix). Voldemort uses fear. I was referring to Dumbledore, who people follow out of love, but I didn't make that clear. > (5) If there's a void created by a subsequent death of Voldemort, would Snape be able to step into it? Who would welcome him? Salit: Again, you are applying logical thinking from the outside. The question is not whether he can step into it but whether he wants to or thinks he can. lealess: Sure, if you want to throw logic out the window, why stop there: why not toss out character development and motivation? Anything is possible. Snape really wants to become the headmaster of Hogwarts; he's obviously been working diligently in Dumbledore's shadow for eyars. I think there's as much canon support for that as for him being the new Dark Lord. Just because he's a seemingly loyal professor doesn't mean he wants to be headmaster (or even a professor at all). Just because he is a powerful wizard, does not mean he wants to rule the world. Unless you believe plausibility doesn't matter and anything is possible... I wonder if I've just stumbled across the key to HP. > What position does he hail from? He is not Minister of Magic, or anything seemingly above the fray. Salit: Neither are Volemort or Dumbledore... Anyway, he wants to lead the bad guys, not the good guys. Somehow I don't think that being Minister of Magic is such a recommendation with them. lealess: With the Big Bad gone, I doubt the bad guys will want to be led by anyone. I count Snape at the top of that list, but just because he does not want to be under someone's thumb does not mean he will turn around and put others under his thumb. Where have we really seen that kind of ambition in him in the books? > He's killed the beloved Dumbledore. Voldemort will be dispatched in some manner in due course. Will the followers of the Big Two roll out the welcome mat for him then? Salit: He can't get both sides to follow him, of course. He's casted his lot with the DE's. Where do you think killing Dumbledore and disarming Harry can put him in their eyes, when Voldemort himself failed to do either one. Snape had better be careful that Voldemort does not eliminate him as a threat next! lealess: Yes, I agree. Countermanding Voldemort's orders might not have been the best idea. > (6) Does he seem to be anticipating the day he faces Potter? He's been pretty easy on him so far, not as psychologically intimidating as I would be if I wanted to throw an opponent off guard for a future fight. Salit: And he knows Harry better than any one else, having explored his mind thoroughly during the Occlumency lessons, curtesy of Dumbledore's trust... He thinks he can defeat him as he knows his weaknesses and how to goad him (witness their duel at the end of HBP where Harry was traunced). lealess: Time will tell how well he knows Harry, really, if his prejudice against James Potter is dispelled. As for the duel, he gave Harry the tools to defeat him the next time they meet. Selfless, sly, or stupid? (Also, Snape was the one being goaded, I think.) > all evidence points to Snape being someone who ultimately lets others determine the course of their own lives, hoping they will leave him alone. I do not see him as a ruler, even with the Half- Blood Prince moniker. Salit: I don't see him as a leader but any tyrant can become a ruler if he can gather enough strength under him. Right now he is in a very good position. The former top players are pretty much out - Malfoy Sr. messed up terribly and Bellatrix is a mental basket case. lealess: Why does there have to be a new leader? Is Harry destined to be a leader ala Dumbledore, if he survives? Maybe everyone will go home, grateful that the ordeal is finally over. I guess that's unthinkable in this universe of good and evil, however. I am not really tied to any one theory, by the way. Given the evidence of character development to-date, it is hard to picture Snape as a would-be tyrant. It is easier to picture him as a reclusive loner, who might want to go back to that kind of life. But I didn't expect his action in the sixth book (who did?). So, anything's possible. lealess From milcg at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 15:38:40 2005 From: milcg at yahoo.com (Mil) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:38:40 -0000 Subject: How will LV be destroyed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rt11guru" wrote: --- snip--- > The AK rebounds (you think he would have learned the first time), > killing LV. This time, he is clearly and sincerely dead. That keeps > Harry from having to use evil to defeat evil. In fact, evil is > defeated by its own evilness (evility? evilosity?) offering up the > moral lesson of the day: "Live by the AK, die by the AK." > > Guru Mil: Now... I do think there will be something like this happening... A second AK rebound or something of the sort that will "prevent" Harry from defeating evil with evil... but I don't think it'll end up in death... what if instead of that, instead of "just dying" (and in Dumbledore's words taking the new adventure), what if, we actually end up with a LV turned in to something he's always hated a muggle... a human with all it's weaknesses and nothing more... How many of his followers do you think will be actually keen to... well, follow him?... And even more so, if they are also presented to the fact that LV *IS* a *mudblood*??? (Bellatrix seems to not know or believe this bit of fact in OOTP).... Did anyone see the movie "God's Soldiers"?... A war between angels, two archangels in the final battle... One of them, hates humans because God loves humans more, in spite of their many many faults, than his "perfect" angels... I won't get into the whole movie... but in the end this archangel-hate-humans, in the final battle is turned into nothing less than a human, that what he hates more than anything... his worst punishment he could ever had... not be destroyed/ vanished/ sent to wherever you'd like, but to earth to live like something he despised so much... Now that I believe would be "someting worse than death" MIL- who also thinks there are so much more worse things than death. From jmkearns at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 16:28:53 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:28:53 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136236 > ongj87: > I also don't think it's quite fair to completely rule out Harry > being one of the Horcruxes.... > > If Voldemort intentially planted a horcrux in Harry, I think he > would have liked to think of Harry as his heir, something to > stretch out the line of Slytherin. In this, I believe he would > have wanted Harry as a child to be raised in the way he idealized, > without a father (thus, he killed James) and with a mother to > raise him (thus, he wanted to let Lily live). John K: I could see Voldemort thinking this way, except... his actions made it clear that he wasn't. If he wanted to let Lily live, why did he kill her? If he wanted Harry to be his heir, why did he attack him? > ongj87: > If Voldemort was under the impression that Harry might be the heir > to Gryffindor, I think he might have found the idea of turning > Harry into one of his Horcruxes intriguing. In making Harry one > his horcruxes, he might have been under the impression that this > might also be the end to the line of Gryffindor. John K: Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow, because of the prophecy, to kill Harry. It doesn't make sense for him to store his soul in Harry for safekeeping, then to promptly kill him. And the books are pretty clear that Voldemort did try to kill Harry. I would be pretty alarmed if JKR said "ha ha! I know I told you repeatedly that the failed curse was Avada Kedavra, but it wasn't!" I don't see it. To me, the 'Harry as a Horcrux' theory doesn't hold water because: 1) Voldemort wouldn't intentionally make him into a Horcrux if he was planning to kill him (which he's still trying to do!) 2) Voldemort didn't accidentally make Harry a Horcrux when he killed Lily because you can't accidentally do that. It's a complex spell. That's like saying you accidentally made an Unbreakable Vow - oops! 3) The failed Avada Kedavra didn't make Harry a Horcrux because nobody died in it, so Voldemort's soul wasn't split. I really don't see any way around this. If a piece of Voldemort's soul is in Harry, it's through an entirely different type of magic, and it wouldn't be reasonable to wait to introduce such a concept until the final book. Harry's got a tough enough task ahead of him- he doesn't need to be presented with any more obstacles. Besides, we know the last chapter, already written, summarizes the future lives of the characters. Why write such a thing in a book about Harry Potter if he dies? Just my opinion, John K From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 16:36:33 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:36:33 -0000 Subject: Are house elves invisible at times? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "diliapacheco" wrote: > Yes, they are invisible. See Chamber of Secrets, PoA, and GoF. > And even though, most of us don't suspect Malfoy spotting the house > elves, if it where true, where are you going with this? What do you > have in mind? > > Dilia Hi Dilia, I wasn't going anywhere with it, sorry. I had one of those moments where a question sprang to mind which made me think for a moment for any examples of House Elves ever being seen in places or not, and you answered it perfectly! I wasn't aware of them being invisible, so I'll go and have a look for th bits I missed. Any suggestions as to where in the books, please? Sandra From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 16:48:33 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:48:33 -0000 Subject: A Ginny Theory. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136239 There's been a lot of discussion regarding Harry and Ginny's realtionship, and I've found all sides really interesting and amusing, everyone! Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that JKR has kept the details about their relationship to a minimum because in the next book Ginny is for the chop in a horrible way and as such, JKR doesn't want to traumatise her younger readers by making G herself (and her relationship) anything that we care too much about. We've read of her tantrums, arguments, and that horrible bitching she gives to Ron before he miraculously finds Lavender, and so therefore we have very few reasons to like her or see that she has anything special with Harry. So there's no nice images of her and Harry described in the book, not even a sentence or two of something mild (as Del suggested many posts ago). That would have been easy for her to do, but she chose not to. And I think that's so that nobody gets very attached to her. That's my theory for the time being! Sandra. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 16:51:06 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:51:06 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136240 "zgirnius" wrote: > I would like to point out the > three word annswer "Snape is evil" > is not the answer to every > question about Snape. True, but "Snape is evil" will answer about 97% of the questions about Snape and you don't even need ridiculously convoluted gymnastics. I'm a little surprised we're still debating this, even before HBP Snape was a pretty rotten human being, but now he's murdered Dumbledore for heaven's sake, what more does the man have to do? > An evil Snape who cares about > noone/nothing but himself ought > not take a UV to protect Draco. > Why risk his own life in this way? Killing Dumbledore is certain to be dangerous, if he could get Draco to do it for him Snape would be delighted to help in a support capacity vow or no vow. > An evil Snape who serves Voldemort > especially has no reason to take > this vow. That's true, but an evil Snape who does NOT serve Voldemort would have a reason to take the vow, it gets Bellatrix off his back and at no cost because he was going to help Draco anyway. By the way, can you give me a reason why a good Snape would make a vow to murder the greatest most powerful good wizard in the world? Can you tell me how losing their greatest asset (except perhaps for Harry) helps the good guys? No gymnastics please. > if Draco were to attempt a suicide > style attack on DD, Snape would > actually have to protect Draco Suicide attack? Draco? Snape knows him better than that. > if Draco made some hideously > unsuccessful overt attempt on > DD's life, Snape would be > compelled to step in right then. And that's exactly what he did, but he was not compelled, he would have done it even without the vow. Eggplant From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Wed Aug 3 16:53:00 2005 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:53:00 -0000 Subject: accidental horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiramertip" > wrote: > > > And now Oiram: > > > > I believe that Pettigrew was there. It makes sense: > > 1- He told Voldemort where were the Potters > > 2- He was an average wizard but still, he was able to cast a very > > powerful spell tat killed several muggles at the same time, probably > > using Voldemort's wand (maybe a wand retains some of its owners > > powers, after having been used for a while) > > 3- He hid the wand, and gave it back to Voldemort at the end of GOF. > > > > Makes sense? > > --- > > Inge: > If Wormtail used Voldemort's wand to do the mugglekilling it probably > would've showed at the Prior Incantatem in the Graveyard-scene? Mario again: OOps, Sorry about that, you're right. From ngermany at excite.com Wed Aug 3 16:45:54 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:45:54 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: <004901c59838$32c97060$8424f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136242 Sherry: > And yet, in the series, *mothers* are portrayed as the ones who are the> loving, wonderful, giving, life sacrificing parental figures. Even Narcissa > comes off sympathetic in her role as mother. Fathers, however, don't come > off too well, From James to Lucius, they are portrayed as less in some way. We have four mother figures and four fathers too consider. The fathers are Vernon D., Amos D., Barty C., and Arthur W. Arthur and Amos raised their children well. Barty's ambition killed his relationship with his son. Vernon D.? Frankly, I am convinced that his character is provided as a humorous note; I don't consider him as anything else. Mothers---------- This is the first we've really seen of Narcissa. (Heresay does not count.) What bad can you really say about her? That she is willing to lie, ruthlessly manipulate, and beg help to save the life of her beloved child? That her behavior is unethical or immoral? There is not a single mom of my acquaintance who wouldn't do the same. I'd wager that 9.5 mom's out there would. (On a personal note I'm sorry you got one from the .5% group. Mine came from that group too. It just means that when we get our shot-- do it better!) Speaking of ruthlessly manipulating....Molly Weasly. It's a subject well worn here that she isn't the best role model mother. But neither is she the worst. Her influence on the children is somewhat balanced by her husband's influence, which is the way a good marriage/partnership should work. And you can site contradicting examples but by and large the Weasely children (even Percey) are a good group of young people. So, all in all, she did her job well, ie, she is a good mother. For all those here who want to slam her(she raised seven children!)she works very hard and without much help from her husband (Arthur works a lot of overtime; although when he is home he shows some support) AND with little to show for it at the end of the day. I'm sorry, but I have to say this to those who are still blasting her...those of you raising fewer than three children have not a single clue as to how hard her work is. Petunia Dursley....what can be said. No power on earth can make her change and she just isn't Harry's mother. I suspect she loved her sister, but will never overcome her prejudice against withcraft and so ....poor Harry!. As regards the upbringing of Dudley... The father is just as responsible for the outcome of the children as the mother. Vernon let her get away with spoiling Dudders. With the exception of the Dursley's, I just don't see JKR's characters as stereotypical in the canned sense. They seem well crafted. Elizabeth From gertgal at aol.com Wed Aug 3 17:03:23 2005 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:03:23 -0000 Subject: Is Sirius really dead? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136243 > Amontillada: > > First of all, what is the difference between "dying" and "passing > through the veil"? From Luna's talk with Harry afterward, she at least > sees it as the same thing. > Gielreta: I'm not sure she does. I think it's more accurate to say she sees the dead as lying beyond the veil. No where she equate "through the veil" with "dying." Personally, I think that the veil is only one of multiple gateways to the "land of the dead" or whatever. Obviously, every dying person doesn't queue up at the Ministry and wait to pass through. The question is: If one can die without passing through the veil, can one pass through the veil without dying? From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 17:11:03 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:11:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007201c5984e$55606960$8424f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 136244 Sherry: > And yet, in the series, *mothers* are portrayed as the ones who are the> loving, wonderful, giving, life sacrificing parental figures. Even Narcissa > comes off sympathetic in her role as mother. Fathers, however, don't come > off too well, From James to Lucius, they are portrayed as less in some way. We have four mother figures and four fathers too consider. The fathers are Vernon D., Amos D., Barty C., and Arthur W. Arthur and Amos raised their children well. Barty's ambition killed his relationship with his son. Vernon D.? Frankly, I am convinced that his character is provided as a humorous note; I don't consider him as anything else. Sherry again: You forgot James Potter, who is presented as a bully in school. I'm a believer that James wasn't as bad as Snape presents, so that's up for debate. Lucius Malfoy. Tom Riddle. And Voldemort's mother's father. None of those are very nice men. I happen to like most of the moms in HP. I love Molly. I can sympathize with Narcissa. I'm a little tired of hearing about sainted Lily with no evidence of why she was sainted before she gave her life for her son, which was incredible. i was not meaning to bash the mother figures in the books, just to say that the books show repeated instances of bad fathering. Even James giving his life to try to save lily and Harry wasn't good enough. We don't know what kind of a father Amos Digory was, so I don't really include him in the list of fathers. But Arthur is the only decent father figure we've e got. He and Molly are a great set of parents, and there's no doubt in my mind about that. I appreciate Jen giving the info from JKR's Time interview about how the series ended up showing the negative consequences of bad fathering. But it is still a problematic theme for me, except that Arthur can take up the slack to some extent for me. Sherry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:17:21 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:17:21 -0000 Subject: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136245 > Now Potioncat: > By now Snape is angry, but he will still simply keep Harry's wand > out > of reach. He's also telling Harry who the Half-Blood Prince was. > He > isn't saying I "am" the Half-Blood Prince, he's > saying he "was" the > Half-Blood Prince. It proved to Harry both that he knew where the > spells came from and that he had been the owner of the book. Alla: Hm, don't have the book with me now. Did he say "was"? Wasn't he saying that it was I who invented the spell, I the Half - Blood Prince. Again, don't have the book with me now, but it sounded to me as if he still calls himself that name. Potioncat: > Now, I wonder, how will that help Harry next year? Keep your mouth > shut, close your mind, don't use my spells against me.... Alla: LOL! Maybe it would help him defeat Snape. :-) Seriously though, I again getting back to the question Janeway raised earlier - does that advice sound to you as advice of someone who "understands" Harry and wants to teach him something? Harry did not master Occlumency and gave up doing it, because he does not repress his feelings, as JKR said. Do you think that repressing his feelings would somehow help him? I am not sure. JMO of course, Alla. From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:10:28 2005 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:10:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: A Ginny Theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136246 Sandra Collins wrote: > We've read of her tantrums, arguments, and that horrible bitching > she gives to Ron before he miraculously finds Lavender, and so > therefore we have very few reasons to like her or see that she > has anything special with Harry. So there's no nice images of her > and Harry described in the book, not even a sentence or two of > something mild (as Del suggested many posts ago). That would > have been easy for her to do, but she chose not to. And I think > that's so that nobody gets very attached to her. > > That's my theory for the time being! > David: Well, I can think off a number of times where G is portrayed in a positive light (befriending Luna and Neville come to mind). I'm betting JKR would be surprised some us of think she didn't develop the relationship well. So, I don't agree with your theory as to she did it intentionally. It just seems to me JKR was bound and determined to write a shorter book. IMO, especially the last few chapters seemed to be 'rushed'. You would think with all the sub-plots and unanswered questions, each book would be larger than the previous. Book 7 especially would have to be larger to tie up all the loose ends. If she handles the final battle between HP and V-man as she did the H-G romance (what romance?), it would take place in a page or two. Basically it will go like, HP and V-man would meet at GH (no idea how they got there). HP will drop his wand and run up and plant a big sloppy one on V-man's cheek and say I love you man. V-man will melt like the wicked witch of the west. Then happiness forever after. One page, maybe two ought to do it. From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 3 17:26:29 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:26:29 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136247 zgirnius: > > *I found this to be the single most problematic action in the book, > personally.* > [...] > An evil Snape who cares about noone/nothing but himself ought not > take a UV to protect Draco. Why risk his own life in this way? > > An evil Snape who serves Voldemort especially has no reason to take > this vow. Yes, it is a vow to do something Voldemort greatly desires. > But Snape can certainly carry out the act without making the Vow. By > its nature the Vow limits the actions Snape can take. houyhnhnm: I see a lot of objections to Evil Snape, but I hadn't thought of this one. Now that I see it, I do believe you are right. It makes no sense for Snape to make the vow just to impress Bellatrix. Having made the vow, it also makes no sense for Snape dawdle around "helping" Draco. If a Voldemort supporter, he would want Dumbledore killed before he is able to find and destroy more horcruxes*. If he is working for himself, it would still be more in his interest to have Draco kill Dumbledore. He would not have to be on the run from most of the wizarding world. In nearly six months (from early-mid July to the time of Slughorn's Christmas party), a powerful dark wizard (and in HBP we finally see just how extensive Snape's magical expertise is) and master manipulator couldn't find any better way to expedite the plan, than to ask Draco to come to his office a few times and get his (Draco's) back up? *"And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? *They who knew the steps I took*, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" (GoF, American Scholastic Edition, p. 648) From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:30:11 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Horcruxes - Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: <1123062287.826.28575.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050803173012.24360.qmail@web32107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136248 John K wrote: " -One is the diary, now destroyed -Two is the ring, also destroyed -Three is the locket, which R.A.B. planned to destroy. Most people think that this is Regulus and that the locket was the one in Grimmauld Place, now held by Kreacher or Mundungus, but we don't know. -Four is almost certainly Hufflepuff's cup. -Five is a huge question mark, even to Dumbledore. He suspects it might be an unknown artifact of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's, but that's not a lot to go on. -Six is somewhat questionable, but Dumbledore is pretty sure it is Nagini." Morgan here: This has been touched on before, but I also think that we will have been introduced to one horcrux in each of the 7 books. The number 7 is just too important for that not to have happened. My theory has some holes in it, though. Part of the problem is I can't remember ever seeing the Hufflepuff cup elsewhere in the books. I do not believe any of the items we have seen act is good ways will end up being horcruxes (e.g., Sorting Hat, Gryffindor's sword, Mirror of Erised). Upon thinking about it I think anything with a horcrux inside it would be ruled by the evil of that soul, as the diary was. Voldemort himself - Book 1 (where we saw his soul apart from the body) Diary - Book 2 Hufflepuff cup - ?? (I thought this was the goblet of fire at first, but it is too old) Needs to be found in Book 3 or else my logic falls apart! Something of Ravenclaw's - ?? This could also be Nagini, in which case she was introduced in Book 4 Locket - Book 5 Ring - Book 6 (unless we have seen the ring before and this can be traded with the cup) Something of Gryffindor's - Book 7 Harry will find in Godric's Hollow --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shadychrs at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:19:31 2005 From: shadychrs at yahoo.com (shadychrs) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:19:31 -0000 Subject: Ollivander a Death Eater? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136249 With Ollivander's disappearance in HBP, does anyone else think he has gone into Voldemort's service? 1) Voldemort and Harry's wands are linked impairing LV's ability to kill Harry. 2) Ollivander made both of these wands. 3) Ollivander quite plainly spoke that LV's deeds(while terrible) were undoubtedly great. 4) Harry is uncomfortable with Ollivander. Has Voldemort recruited Ollivander to help him fix his wand problem? Shadychrs. From jmkearns at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 17:36:31 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:36:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Unforgivables (was Re: Ghouls and Inferni) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136250 > > Snapeo'phile: > > IF whoever drank the potion would eventually turn into Inferni, > > could this be why Dumbledore was asking Snape(in theory) to AK > > him? Because he didn't want to end up as an Inferni? > > cerid: > I don't think that Dumbledore planned to die quite then, > personally. I do think this was him turning a situation to his > advantage. Whether by pre-existing plan, or a vague request/order > at some earlier time (If you see me dying slowly and painfully, do > the deed, there are worse things than death). John K: It makes sense to me that if he cannot be healed, Dumbledore would prefer death at this point to the alternatives, whatever they may be. But thing that bothers me about Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him is that I don't think Dumbledore would /ever/ ask someone to perform a Killing Curse on /anything/ for /any/ reason. Doesn't he say it's the supreme act of evil? It tears the soul, which can never be redeemed? Whether through legilimency at that moment or by any sort of pre-arranged plan, it doesn't matter - I just don't think it fits Dumbledore's character any more than begging for his life would fit it. Of course, there are repurcussions of this. Because if I'm right, then either (a) Dumbledore was somehow already dead or mostly dead, thus making it not evil; (b) the AK was faked; or (c) Snape is evil. I don't personally believe (c), while (a) and/or (b), though there has been abundant discussion about both, seem a little lame to me. Are there any other explanations? John K From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 17:37:53 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:37:53 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Please use SHIP prefix when talking about relationships and Play Nice. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136251 "Hey, Cranky, what's up?" "Master, they is not going by the rules." "What? How's that? Speak up, Cranky." "When theorizing about relationships in the Harry Potter books, people are supposed to include "SHIP" in the subject line. That is the way it is, right master?" "Yes, of course. It's in our rules at... at... uh, Cranky, where's it at?" "The rules is linked prominently on the home page sir, at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/Posting_Rules_14June2005.html" "Right, so, tell them on the list. Send one of those thingies, those... uh... one of those..." "ADMIN, is master trying to say?" "Yes! One of those. Send an ADMIN to the list." "And should Cranky say that the relationship is one of those that provokes such a strong reaction certain people run screaming at the sight of them, pull out their hair, knock other people's hats off or perform horrible curses on them, while others can't get enough?" "Yes, by all means, Cranky." "As a courtesy to other readers, please use the prefix SHIP for Canon- supported speculation about romantic relationSHIPs between the characters. This is what Cranky will say." "Oh, well done, Cranky." "Master is too... master is too... uh... too..." "Kind? are you thinking, Cranky?" "Oh, yes, right, sir. Master is too kind." HPFGU Admin Team From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:40:21 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Importance of House Elves In-Reply-To: <1123080919.1814.63183.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050803174021.45902.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136252 > Allie wrote: > > ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help > Harry? Morgan here: I think they are going to be very important - Dobby and Kreacher have already been important. I don't have the quote with me, but in CoS Dobby tries to warn Harry about Riddle's diary. There is a conversation where Harry asked if Voldemort is the problem, and Dobby's eyes get really wide. Harry asked if Voldemort had a brother and Dobby's eyes get bigger. Harry is very, very warm in guessing, but gives up without hitting the real issue - that it is a piece of LV's soul. Dobby also says something to the effect that there are some things no decent wizard would do .... Based on this conversation, I think Dobby knew/knows about the horcruxes, or at least suspects it. It may be something that Malfoy Sr. has speculated on in the presence of his house elf. I'm sure that kind of information will come in handy later. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From literature_Caro at web.de Wed Aug 3 17:07:47 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:07:47 +0200 Subject: How many Spies? Message-ID: <1624563834.20050803190747@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136253 Hello everyone! I don't know whether this has been posted already: In POA when being in the Three Broomsticks shortly before Christmas Harry, Ron and Hermoine overhear the talk of McGonagall, Hagrid, Flitwick, Fudge and Madam Rosmerta. It is said there that DD had have a lot number of spies (so more than one!) giving him information during the first war (before Harry's parents were killed). Does anybody have an idea who they are? One of course was Snape (no matter whether he really was spying for DD or not) but who are the others? Lupin? And who else? It sounds like up to five. Caro From literature_Caro at web.de Wed Aug 3 17:38:30 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:38:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] THE ROOM OF REQUIREMENT IS itself A HORCRUX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167597824.20050803193830@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136254 > THE ROOM OF REQUIREMENT IS ITSELF A HORCRUX. And the reasons I have > to believe this is the following we do not know what Hufflepuff and > Ravenclaw left behind at Hogwarts. > What does a Raven represents? > It means to seek or seize prey. That could also be denominated as > to seek for something and find it. > So, we can deduce from this that if in order to find the room of > requirements one would have to be seeking for something, and then a > door would immediately appear, the room of requirements would have > to be what Ravenclaw left behind. > And of course, the room of requirement entirely could be the next > Horcruxe. Caro: I don't think that you could turn a room into a Horcrux. That sounds so odd to me (at least for any room in the school), because if this was so then Harry would need to destroy a part of Hogwarts and that sounds a little too odd to me, sorry. But I think that the room can be used to find out about the location of the other Horcruxes. Harry would just have to desperately want to know where they are and then it would show him. > However, we can also infer what Hufflepuff left behind with what we > know about him so far. Which is: known for his loyalty, Hufflepuff > was a devoted hard worker. From this point on, you guys could help > me conclude what was that Hufflepuff left behind. Caro: Well that's a good question. I think some room that is not hidden but could reveal some special purpose (e.g. shelter for the students when the school is attacked) or function (don't ask me what :-) ). Why so? Because the Sorting Hat cites Helga Hufflepuff to take everyone no matter who they are and how gifted they are. So why exclude anyone? I see no reason. BTW: what kind of room would Griffindor have constructed then? > Not with standing, I hope that you guys make it count that LV was > the one who left the diary to do his evil deeds, as it did in > Chamber of Secrets. And what Salazar Slytherin left behind at > Hogwarts was the chamber of secrets This is what I found after I > reading once more, book2. As we all know, the diary was a Horcruxe, > and I believe that the chamber itself is another one > Penny for a thought? > Best wishes, always > -Dilia Caro: I think the chamber did nothing more than to mirror Slytherin's racist attitude and the diary did then mirror Voldemorts brutality, continuity of his ancestor's attitude (though he consequently should AK himself first for he is a halfblood) and his desperate longing for immortality. And by the way when and how should he have created the horcruxed chambers? DD said in book 2 that Riddle left for good and came back and was completely changed and sunken so deeply into the dark arts. This leads me to the suggestion that he started creating horcruxes after leaving Hogwarts. Yours Caro From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:52:43 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore as Christ figure In-Reply-To: <1123090238.2343.84752.m35@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050803175243.10706.qmail@web32101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136255 Dean wrote: "In brief, I suggest that in the end, Snape will be redeemed, Voldemort will be thereby destroyed, and the kids will carry out Dumbledore's mandate to go out into the world and spread the influence of the goodness of Love. Because that is Dumbledore's message, just as it was Christ's: Love is the strongest magic there is." Morgan here: I like this theory and have thought about it myself. If you use that logic, then Snape will ultimately commit suicide (as Judas did). The question then is why are the books called "Harry Potter and the ...." My answer to this is that Harry represents the "everyman/woman" that is all of us. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 3 17:54:45 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:54:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not to sound like the Psychology major that I am, but... In-Reply-To: <20050803153619.81405.qmail@web86204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050803153619.81405.qmail@web86204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42F104E5.3000802@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136256 Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > --- xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com wrote: > > > > 1. Could Serveus Snape be a High functioning > > Autistic? He shows IMHO a lot of signs such as: > > a) bullied, unpopular > > b) highly intelligent > > c) somewhat cold and lacks empathy > > d) poor social skills > > e) very adept in specific areas like Potions and > > DADA > > No, he can't. > > 1. He reads facial expressions and non-verbal signals. > 2. He uses sarcasm. > > Both traits run contrary to ASD diagnosis. > > Irene Kathy writes: As a person who has raised a high functioning Autistic, I find that the biggest argument against Snape being one is that Dumbledore hasn't strangled him in fourteen years. KJ From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:57:36 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:57:36 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136257 "eggplant107" wrote: > Suicide attack? Draco? Snape knows him better than that. zgirnius: Granted! He also knows Draco well enough to know his attempts to get at DD would be more likely to get in Snape's way than to have any positive (from an ESE!Snape POV) outcome... He was going to help Draco anyway, I can see that. But to promise to protect him? That is different. Definite potential for trouble and complications he does not need. I won't go into the "gymnastics" again, you've clearly read them and formed your own opinion, I just don't feel I've seen any answer that avoids the problems inherent in the UV. Because I see the UV as a bad idea from a strictly utilitarian standpoint, considered logically from Snape's POV, it tends to prejudice me in favor of believing there is an emotional and/or ethical component of some sort to Snape's decision. This does not have to be that Snape is good, he planned it all out with DD in advance, etc etc. But something. From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 3 18:01:33 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:01:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's transformation (Was: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F1067D.8060506@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136258 mt3t3l1 wrote: > I like your theory about Grindelwald. While I would not put it past > Tom Riddle to kill multiple people until he figured out the way to > make a Horcrux, getting the information from Grindelwald would be a > very reasonable explanation for how he could have learned the > technique relatively quickly after his conversation with Slughorn. It > would also explain why JKR refused to answer key questions about > Grindelwald in her post-HBP interview. Finally, Riddle left Hogwarts > in 1945 and Grindelwald died in 1945, so the timelines overlap enough > for this to be a plausible scenario. > > Merrylinks Kathy writes: If Riddle learned how to make horcruxes from Grindelwald, this would also make that a significant event in Tom's life. It would also that be possible that Riddle killed Grindelwald (the timing of G's death seems significant). Is there any item in the books that belonged to Grindelwald? Or would Grindelwald's death be used to make the second horcrux. From the timing in the book, Tom had killed before he learned how to make horcruxes, so it seems to me that the making of one does not have to happen at the time of the death. KJ From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 3 18:09:04 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:09:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's hidden plan? (shortish post) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F10840.1070303@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136260 lealess wrote: > lealess: Lord of the flies? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) We really don't > know what Voldemort asks his followers to do. Snape no doubt knows > some dark stuff. But how much of it have we seen him use, except for > AK (which may or may not have been) and the curses he invented? > lealess Kathy writes: I found Bella's remark in Chapter 2 interesting when she described Snape's activities as "the usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action...." Could be that Snape has practiced avoidance whenever he could get away with it. It is one of the things that makes Bella suspicious. KJ From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 3 18:09:59 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:09:59 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / And Remus/Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136261 > Hickengruendler: > > But I don't think this is true. Even if we exclude the internal > dialogue, and I might add that we got internal dialogue about several > things in course of the series, including Quidditch, that does not > explain why we didn't got any *external* dialogue between Harry and > Ginny. Why don't we see them talking with each other? Or Harry > confiding in her? Or them simply eating chocolate frogs together, > enjoying their time? (see, it doesn't even have to be deep > conversation. I just want to see them interacting with each other). > Taking all the books together (before the Spiderman scene in the > end), there is exactly one scene, where Harry and Ginny have a > conversation without anyone else present, namely the one in the > library in book 5. Heck, Harry had more pagetime alone with *Tonks* > than with Ginny, at least they had two scenes together without anyone > else present. And in one of them Tonks did not much more than telling > Harry about her metamorphmagus powers and that she thinks that the > Dursley house is a bit too clean. And yet this is a very lively and > interesting scene. > > There is nothing in the books that suggest that Ginny is anything > more than the object of Harry's teen lust. And the thing is, I > wouldn't have minded this, since I find it pretty realistic and since > it still has the opportunity to develop into more. But the problem > is, that JKR obviously wants us to believe, that there is already > more, as the last scene clearly suggests. And this is where she IMO > failed. In the last scene Harry and Ginny talk, as if they were > deeply in love, caring for each other on a level that goes way > beneath the surface and that they are obviously soulmates. But I do > not find this obvious at all, because there is no emotional > investment leading to this. There is no bond between Harry and Ginny. > I see a stronger bond (of course in a non-shippy way) between Harry > and Neville or Harry and Luna or Harry and Remus, because of the > times we see them interact. What I see is a teenage boy who lusted > after a pretty girl, and a teenage girl, who is happy because her > childhood-crush finally acknowledged her. Really, the relationship > between them seems as "deep" to me as the one between Fleur Delacour > and Roger Davies after the Yule Ball. > > You are saying that romance doesn't have as much room in such a > story, but this can't explain why the romance between Ron and > Lavender got more screentime than the one Harry had with his > supposed "ideal" girl. And if JKR really wants to include such a > noble hero scene like the one in the end, than she should make the > reader care about this ship, so that the scene feels earned. And I > can't say that I care about the H/G ship, or about Ginny as a > character, very much. Marianne: I understand the points that others have made - that romance is not the main plot of the books, that readers can between the lines and supply their own interpretation to whatever happened offscreen with H/G, that, since JKR obviously feels that H/G *is* the true ship for these two, then that's enough for us and we should simply view it as a given that the two are happy, make each other happy, and what's not to like about that? I'm firmly with Del and Hickengruendler on this issue. All the above may be true, but it still leaves some of us with an empty feeling about the pairing. It's much more fun and interesting if the reader is actually taken along for the ride and can see the couple interact, and not simply be told that, wow they had a great couple of weeks. I feel the same emptiness with what I felt was the sudden springing on the readership of Remus/Tonks. Yes, they are minor players in the story as a whole, so of course JKR is not going to devote entire chapters to the "Ballad of Remus and Tonks," but the whole impassioned Tonks speech in the hospital, and Remus' unenthusiastic response did not strike me as a couple really in love, either. Yes, one can read the glimpses of Tonks as the Pining Woman that we got through the book as evidence of her crushing disappointment in a lack of progress on the Remus front, but, as I think Magda stated a day or two ago, Remus' response to her in the hospital wing struck me, too, as "What part of 'I'm not interested' don't you understand?" People can see this as a plausble Remus response because he is naturally reticent in showing his feelings and doesn't believe he's truly worthy of love, and that he's wary of doing anything that might cause himself more pain if he were to love and lose Tonks. Or people can read it as someone who has been trying to let Tonks down as easily as possible over the year without making her feel bad. So, he will say the blame lies with him and his issues, not that he's rejecting her love. And, it comes back again to everything happening offscreen. We see Tonks generally upset and not herself. We see Remus staring into the fire. Then we get the revelation that Tonks has been hammering at Remus for apparently a long while that she's in love with him and doesn't care about his reasons for holding her off. It felt liked something tacked on to the story, as if any available unattached adults who have had speaking parts in at least two books had to be paired up. It might be a nice subplot, but there's no resonance in it for me. Marianne From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 18:17:32 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:17:32 -0000 Subject: A Ginny Theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" > Sandra wrote: > I've come to the conclusion that JKR has kept the details about > their relationship to a minimum because in the next book Ginny is > for the chop in a horrible way and as such, JKR doesn't want to > traumatise her younger readers by making G herself (and her > relationship) anything that we care too much about. Max responds: I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. If Rowling didn't want to traumatize younger readers she wouldn't have killed Lily, James, Cedric, Sirius and, oh yeah, Dumbledore. Ginny certainly has as much chance of getting killed as anyone else in the series, but Rowling is not going to base that decision on how much the fans care about Ginny. > Sandra wrote: > We've read of her tantrums, arguments, and that horrible bitching > she gives to Ron before he miraculously finds Lavender, and so > therefore we have very few reasons to like her or see that she > has anything special with Harry. Max responds: I think JKR has provided many reasons to like Ginny, which is why she has such a big fan base, including JKR herself. But she's not perfect. She's a bit of a hot head, I agree. She can come off as biting and sarcastic at times. You may dislike her for these faults, but many other readers focus on her good qualities instead. > Sandra wrote: > So there's no nice images of her and Harry described in the book, > not even a sentence or two of something mild (as Del suggested many > posts ago). That would have been easy for her to do, but she chose > not to. And I think that's so that nobody gets very attached to her. Max responds: I agree, it would have been nice for JKR to have fleshed out the H/G relationship a bit. And it *was* written in a way that kept us somewhat distanced from it. I was frustrated by that myself. However, to claim there were no nice images of Ginny and Harry in HBP and by extension, hints that they were, at least, happy together is simply not accurate. Imo, in HBP JKR was simply establishing that Harry and Ginny *liked* each other, that they enjoyed each other's company. This much should certainly be clear to everyone who read the book, regardless of how you feel about Ginny. What we see are the beginning stages of a relationship. We don't know enough at this point to be able to clearly say whether it will grow more serious or not. But the stage has been set, at any rate, for further development of the ship in Book 7 if that is the direction that JKR choses to go. Max (Who will be very surprised if Ginny hides 'meekly' in the background in HP7) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 18:19:58 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:19:58 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's transformation (Was: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136264 > Carol responds: > I agree with you that Tom Riddle could not have created the > Horcruxes (other than the diary, which is not a true Horcrux in > that it's easily destroyed, requires interaction with another > person, and was originally intended for another purpose). The fact > that Diary!Tom isn't wearing the ring suggest to me *not* that > he's already created the ring Horcrux but that he hasn't yet > killed his family. Jen: That's a good point about the ring. After looking over the timeline, I think you're right. Tom opened the COS in his fifth year, and murdered his family the summer of the 'sixteenth' year, after his sixth year of school. Someone pointed out Riddle could have preserved his 16-year old self in the diary prior to the process of the Horcrux. So then the diary and ring Horcruxes could have been made after the Riddle murders (see below why I don't think it was Myrtle). It doesn't seem likely he made the diary into a Horcrux before his talk with Slughorn. He obviously doesn't know much about them at that point. Carol: > The only murder he's committed at this time is Moaning Myrtle, who > was killed on his direction by the basilisk, which is as much his > agent as his weapon. Jen: Myrtle was a 'negligent homicide' or something similar in my book, sort of a wrong place, wrong time murder. But the important thing is whether Tom believes she was murdered by his hand (or on his command), and if so, was she was significant enough to use for one of his precious Horcruxes? My thought is no. Riddle doesn't mention her death to Harry in the COS, he doesn't take credit for the murder. Given his history of linking significant murders to trophy objects, I'm leaning toward the murder of his grandfather for the diary, noting the end of the Riddle line. >Carol: > After framing Hagrid and creating the diary as a kind of amateur > pseudo-Horcrux, he leaves Hogwarts for the summer, kills his father > and grandparents, and comes back with the object that he intends to > make into his first real Horcrux, the ring. Jen: The way Riddle thinks, it's likely he formed both the ring and diary Horcruxes after the deaths of his father and grandfather, the only true blood Riddles left. Since his father is most significant, and the ring is a direct link to the Slytherin line, this murder formed the ring Horcrux. His grandfather was used for the diary, a testament to what Riddle considers his true heritage, Heir of Slytherin. His grandmother was a drive-by shooting I'm afraid, and since not a blood Riddle, not significant enough for a Horcrux. Carol: > We don't see Tom during his seventh year at Hogwarts, but it could > be that he used the summer between his sixth and seventh years to > visit Grindelwald (surely this is the reason Grindelwald has been > mentioned in the earlier books?) and create his first real Horcrux. Jen: Being picky about the timeline here. At the Slug Club meeting Tom asks if Merrythought is retiring because he hopes to get the DADA job. If it's his sixth year, they would hire someone else before he finished Hogwarts. So I think this meeting was in his seventh year. That puts a crunch on how much time he had to meet with Grindelwald, since he graduated in 1945, and Grindelwald was defeated the same year. But I think you, Cindy and Merrylinks are all right that this *must* be what's significant about Grindelwald. Even if the two didn't ever meet directly, it's pretty clear GW was able to form at least one Horcrux before being defeated by Dumbledore. I think that's who DD refers to when he said 'no wizard has ever done more than tear his woul in two' (chap. 23. p. 500) *and* why he adamantly refuses for Horcrux information to be available at Hogwarts. Also, it explains how Dumbledore knew to suspect Voldemort of making Horcruxes, because he's seen it happen before. Carol: > When we next see him ten years later, he is twenty-eight and ought > to look as he did when he visited Hepzibah Smith. Instead, > although still recognizable to his former Slytherin followers > (Theo Nott's father among them) and to Dumbledore, his features > are blurred, his skin is waxy, and his eyes and nose are starting > to resemble those we will see in the resurrected Voldemort in GoF. > He is about halfway there, having created the cup and locket > Horcruxes. Which murders he used to create them we don't know, but > he would probably consider his grandparents' deaths more > significant than Hepzibah Smith's. Jen: I'm thinking he used the cup for Hepzibah because she was distantly related to Hufflepuff, similar to his distant relationship to Slytherin. It's also punishment for 'stealing' the locket that was sold to Burke for just a pittance. Now the locket....that has to be a very significant murder. The locket his mom wore, with the Slytherin seal. Either we haven't heard about this murder or we've had hints and don't know it yet. Jen, thinking Merrythought is a really peachy name for a DADA professor. From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 3 18:23:03 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:23:03 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Unforgivables (was Re: Ghouls and Inferni) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136265 > John K: But thing that bothers me about Dumbledore asking Snape to kill > him is that I don't think Dumbledore would /ever/ ask someone to > perform a Killing Curse on /anything/ for /any/ reason. Doesn't he > say it's the supreme act of evil? It tears the soul, which can > never be redeemed? houyhnhnm: This reminds me of the argument over the meaning of the word "kill" in the Ten Commandments. Some say "Thou shalt not kill" proscribes any taking of human life. Some argue that it means "Thou shalt not murder", murder being distinguished from killing. I don't recall any statement in canon to the effect that committing an unforgiveable damages the soul (other than Dumbledore's statement, and, clearly, he is talking about murder); it only gets you sent up to Azkaban. If Dumbledore has ordered Snape to kill him, then it wouldn't really be murder. Not that I think that Dumbledore just calmly told Snape, "Okay, you got caught in a trap, but that's okay--just go ahead and kill me." That would be grotesque. Or that he orchestrates things so that Snape will have a better in with Voldemort, as some have suggested. That would be really grotesque. More likely, Dumbledore realizes that his pursuit of the horcruxes may cost him his life before the end of the school year anyway, and the Draco plot may never come to a head. He make Snape promise *if and only if* Draco is at the point of succeeding, Snape will step in to prevent Draco from becoming a killer. And that is exactly what happens. "'Draco, do it or stand aside so one of us--' screeched the woman, but at that precise moment, the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the four Death Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and Malfoy. "'We've got a problem, Snape,' said the lumpy Amycus, whose eyes and wand were fixed alike upon Dumbledore, 'the boy doesn't seem to be able--'" (p. 595, American scholastic Edition) In other words, Snape appears on the tower exactly at the moment of crisis, when Draco is either going to kill Dumbledore (we know he can't do it by now, but Snape doesn't and neither do the Death Eaters) or be revealed conclusively as unable to do it, and be killed, , along with his mother, by Voldemort. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 18:37:19 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:37:19 -0000 Subject: Not to sound like the Psychology major that I am, but... In-Reply-To: <1c7.2dba7fca.302212db@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, xtremesk8ergurl2 at a... wrote: > Throughout reading Harry Potter there are a few things I have observed: > > 1. Could Serveus Snape be a High functioning Autistic? He shows IMHO a lot of signs such as: > a) bullied, unpopular > b) highly intelligent > c) somewhat cold and lacks empathy > d) poor social skills > e) very adept in specific areas like Potions and DADA > > 2. Draco Malfoy seems to me like he could have some kind of disruptive behavior disorder like ADHD, ODD, Conduct Disorder, or a mood disorder like Bipolar Disorder, he obviously has ups and downs. He seems to have no remorse or regard for the rules and to be somewhat high-strung and destructive. > > 3. Hermione Granger and Percey Weasley seem to be intellectually gifted. > > 4. Neville Longbottom seems to have some kind of Learning Disability or ADD. I don't think he's truly a "duffer" since he does so well in subjects like Herbology, Charms, etc. > > 5. Obviously stated in canon that Hannah Abott has anxiety attacks and says that she's too dumb to take the OWLs. > > -Maggie Maggie, given that you are a psych major, you may be interested in some pre-HBP posts that were written about psychological profiles of characters. They stemmed from a discussion about whether Snape was a narcissist. As for your questions, I'd like to offer my opinion. 1. Snape being autistic --> Disagree. SS does not meet the criteria for Autism or even Asperger's Disorder. He does not have qualitative impairment in social interaction or communication; he does not show repetitive or stereotyped behaviors or interests; and I doubt he demonstrated delays in normal functioning prior to age three. Granted, he's not the guy I would choose to hang out with, but he is not autistic. (For comparison, Dustin Hoffman's character in "Rainman" was a high functioning autistic person, and SS is nothing like him.) 2.Draco having a disruptive behavior disorder --> Agree. I could diagnose him as Conduct Disorder. 3.Hermione and Percy intellectually gifted --> Agree. 4. Neville as ADD or LD --> Disagree. I would need to rule out anxiety for Neville before would rule in ADD. 5. Hannah Abbot as anxious --> If JKR said it, she is. After all, she's her character. Hope you find this interesting. Julie - Hoping to sound somewhat like the clinical psychologist that I am. From tab1669 at elnet.com Wed Aug 3 16:52:26 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:52:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP Gryffindor password Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136267 TO all you people out their thinking that J. K was sugesting sex why would she put abstinence in the book. I think she is trying to say something. JUST SAY NO!!!!! " I've got something for you ,Harry ", said Hermione, neither looking at Ron or giving any sign that she had heard him." OH hand on password. Abstinence." "Precisely" said the Fat Lady in a feeble voice,and swung forward to reveal the portrait hole. Chater seventeen page 351. flyingmonkeypurple From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 18:51:48 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:51:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny/Harry, Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136268 Marianne wrote: "I feel the same emptiness with what I felt was the sudden springing on the readership of Remus/Tonks. Yes, they are minor players in the story as a whole, so of course JKR is not going to devote entire chapters to the "Ballad of Remus and Tonks," but the whole impassioned Tonks speech in the hospital, and Remus' unenthusiastic response did not strike me as a couple really in love, either." Del replies: This definitely shows that the readers' experience accounts for a lot in how they understand a romance that is little developed. Harry/Ginny: many people have said that they enjoyed being able to project their own experience of teen romance on that ship. I, on the other hand, hated not being told more about them, because I have *no* teen romance experience to project on the ship, so it just feels empty to me. JKR provided an outline: some were able to fill it in because they knew from experience what the whole picture looks like, but I was unable to fill it in because I have no idea what the picture is supposed to look like. I am left with only the worthless, empty outline. Lupin/Tonks: I saw the possibility of that one in OoP, and I was happy to see it confirmed in HBP. And I simply LOVED the hospital scene in HBP, because it relates so closely to my own experience. I KNEW what Tonks was going through, because I have had a very similar experience. I cry every time I read it, every time I see Tonks grabbing Lupin and yelling at him "I don't care!", because this is something that I have done and said! I understand the Lupin/Tonks dynamics completely, because they are real to me, they reflect my experience perfectly. But I also understand that many other people can't be as touched by it, because they haven't been through such an experience, or it didn't affect them as much as it did me. The difference between Harry/Ginny and Lupin/Tonks, though, is as Marianne said: Lupin and Tonks are minor characters. So it is understandable that JKR would not take much time to develop their relationship and explain it. She can afford to have some readers who don't get or are not touched by the L/T ship. People have their favourite secondary characters, those they relate best to, and they also have those they don't care about or don't relate to. It's normal. So if some readers don't care about some secondary characters, it doesn't matter, it isn't critical. But Harry is the main character. He's the hero. Because of that, it *does* matter that people care about it, it is important that they relate to him. JKR always took pains to put her readers inside Harry's head, to make us feel what Harry feels, so we would develop a close relationship to him, we would care about him, we would understand him. That's why her not describing the H/G romance is such a problem for me. I *cannot* relate to H/G, because I don't have the right kind of life experience for that. I cannot relate to it any more than I can relate to having a burning scar on my forehead or someone possessing me. I *need* to have those things be described to me, so I can understand them, I can feel how they make Harry feel, I can follow him every step of the way. JKR did not do that for H/G, and as a result that romance *does not exist* for me. I know intellectually that it exists, but not emotionally. I feel nothing about it, I don't care about it, and I don't consider it to be important. And so I find myself quite at odds with Harry, I'm not following him anymore, some of his motives have become unknown to me, and some of his actions don't make any sense to me. Harry has suddenly become somewhat of a stranger to me, a stranger that I don't understand and about whom I can't care very much. And that bothers me very much because it takes away from my pleasure in reading the book and from my understanding of its messages. I had a similar problem with Angry!Harry in HBP, but at least at that time it was something JKR couldn't have done anything about. She couldn't have written it better, or more in detail or whatever, so the problem was entirely mine, her writing was definitely not an issue. But she *could* have written H/G better, and this would probably have removed my problem completely, or at least a big chunk of it. This time, it is not just my problem, part of it comes from JKR's writing. JMO, Del From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 3 18:57:26 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:57:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's will Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136269 Does Dumbledore have a will? (Sirius did.) What will it reveal? Will Harry get the pensieve? houyhnhnm From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 19:12:39 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Gryffindor password In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803191240.59273.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136270 flyingmonkeypurple wrote: TO all you people out their thinking that J. K was sugesting sex why would she put abstinence in the book. I think she is trying to say something. JUST SAY NO!!!!! " I've got something for you ,Harry ", said Hermione, neither looking at Ron or giving any sign that she had heard him." OH hand on password. Abstinence." "Precisely" said the Fat Lady in a feeble voice,and swung forward to reveal the portrait hole. Juli: but doesn't the Fat lady use the word Abstinence because she feels bad about drinking a bit too much over the holidays? "Abstinence." "Precisely," said the Fat Lady in a feeble voice, and swung forward to reveal the portrait hole. "What's up with her?" asked Harry. "Overindulged over Christmas, apparently," said Hermione, rolling her eyes as she led the way into the packed common room. "She and her friend Violet drank their way through all the wine in that picture of drunk monks down by the Charms corridor. Anyway..." To me it's pretty cleat she meant Alcohol Abstinence. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 19:13:29 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803191330.1738.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136271 --- Sharkbait wrote: > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. this part, (OotP pg.841) "The > one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." Snape was > caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that prophecy. > and the part where it says "... and either must die at the hand of the > other for neither can live while the other survives." now that has me > confused with all the other,neither, eithers so I think it's 2 others > and 1 either? I'm am hoping someone smart will read this and explain it > to me. Yes I recently read that from a thread on TLC board that too. More in-depth discussion here: http://www.leakylounge.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=16&t=10057&st=0#entry281113 I think it was brought up long ago in HPFGU. I think it's highly possible, it is one of the more interesting twist on the Prophecy, that JKR has said to be deliberately "ambiguous" (even to her character), and she worded it very carefully. There has to some twist in it, regardless whether DD said it doesn't matter or what. The word "approaches" fit JKR's 'Half-Blood Prince" type of clever simplistic misleading wordings. Perhaps Snape, along with Harry, are the One(s) with the power to vanguish the Dark Lord. D. From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 3 19:18:19 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:18:19 -0000 Subject: How will LV be destroyed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mil" wrote: what if, we actually end > up with a LV turned in to something he's always hated a muggle... a > human with all it's weaknesses and nothing more... How many of his > followers do you think will be actually keen to... well, follow > him?... And even more so, if they are also presented to the fact that > LV *IS* a *mudblood*??? (Bellatrix seems to not know or believe this > bit of fact in OOTP).... LV is not a mudblood - a mudblood(or better yet, muggleborn) is a wizard/witch who has muggles for both parents. LV's mum was a witch, the father was a muggle. He is half-blood, like Snape. Hermoine is a muggleborn. Ron is pure blood. Harry, I don't know what to call him. His parents were both wizards - but he isn't pure-blood, as his mum is a muggleborn. Dad was a pure-blood. I guess, it would be half- blood as well. colebiancardi From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 19:24:25 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803192425.57396.qmail@web32711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136273 delwynmarch wrote: Everyone is not like each of us. Just because we don't read a scene in a certain way doesn't mean that nobody else does, and vice versa. And not everyone has the same life experience as each of us does: some of us have never had a sweet teen romance to project on Harry and Ginny, for example. So I'm glad to know that there are people out there who have had such a romance that they can project on Harry and Ginny, but for someone like me who didn't have that luck, the H/G romance is simply *empty*. Lynn: And, as others, including myself, have stated, JKR cannot write for every person and address every experience each individual reading her books will have or have not had. To expect an author to do that is ridiculous. I never had that "sweet teen romance" either but I can still "see" it between Harry and Ginny. I'm sorry you haven't had the kinds of experiences that allow you to "see" positively what we are being told and, even worse, apparently have experiences that bring up negative impressions. Again, an author can't anticipate each and every person who will read their book and write for them. A big problem is we can't show you what you can't see. People have given you very specific examples that "show" things to them. It either hasn't created a picture for you or it has created a negative one. delwynmarch wrote: All I was asking for was for JKR to *show* us the relationship between Harry and Ginny instead of *telling* us about it. And no, it would *not* take hundreds of pages, that's a totally fallacious argument. Lynn: Well, maybe it wouldn't take long for what YOU need to see. However, then the author would have to write a few lines for what I need to see and what EVERYONE ELSE needs to see. Then again, given all your counter-arguments, I do think it would have taken much more than just a few sentences to satisfy you. That said, just because you think a few lines will satisfy you doesn't mean it will satisfy the next person. And here, we're just talking about one section of the Potter universe. I'm with Prep0strus, it's the R/H ship with which I have a problem. There's a lot more I want to see and have explained. What about Fleur/Bill? I don't get that one at all. Where's my explanation for that? How did Tonks/Lupin happen and we haven't even gotten out of the ships. I won't begin to list my problems with other things happening such as the amount of bullying that is allowed. I can either choose to rail against the author for not being responsible or accept that she wrote the best book she was able to write based on her POV. After all, if I'm that concerned, I can write my own book to address my concerns. I just better be prepared for those who then tell me I didn't address the concerns to their satisfaction or live up to the responsibility they think I should have. There's a difference between saying one wishes the author had addressed a certain issue in a different way than saying they shirked their responsibility because the author didn't address the issue the way the person wanted it to be addressed. delwynmarch wrote: What about my counter-arguments about the H/G romance? (see post 135989, at the end)? Lynn: Personally, I don't think this will do a lot of good as you and I are coming from different POVs. From a lot of these points, I get the impression what you are looking for is what would come from a long-term husband/wife type of relationship and not a very short-term one that begins as a friendship and becomes more. However, I will try to explain how I see these different points. delwynmarch wrote: 1. The Kiss: not a word about Ginny, what she looks like after the kiss, what she does, nothing. Lynn: She leaves with Harry which pretty much tells me everything I need to know at this point. I don't need to see that she was breathless, happy, ecstatic. The telling part to me was the hard, blazing look on Ginny's face before she threw her arms around Harry which gave Harry the okay to kiss her. The several long moments, or half an hour or possibly several sunlit days tells me that Ginny wasn't struggling to get away. I quite like how JKR did this scene. It is in the reactions of others that we can see the effect of the kiss on Harry and Ginny. Dean wouldn't be holding a shattered glass, Romilda Vane wouldn't be wanting to throw something and Hermione wouldn't be beaming if both Harry and Ginny didn't look like the kiss was a good thing. A big point of the scene wasn't Ginny or even the Kiss, it was how Ron would react to the ship. delwynmarch wrote: 2. Not a word about how Ginny feels about the relationship. She's finally got the guy she's always wanted, and yet we don't hear a word about how it makes her feel. And we are not told that it affects her behaviour either. Lynn: As has been said before, we're seeing this from Harry's POV, not Ginny's so we don't know what's inside her head or if her behavior is different. That said, why would her behavior be different? In fact, I would be concerned if her behavior was all that changed. She and Harry are building on a friendship. If her behavior is pretty steady then the friendship is being allowed to remain as the cornerstone of the relationship. To me, that's a good thing. delwynmarch wrote: 3. When Harry sees the Dark Mark over the castle, and when he hears that someone has been killed, his fears are equally shared between Ron, Hermione and Ginny. Lynn: I don't get this question. I think the fact Ginny is up with Ron and Hermione and not down with Neville and Luna, where she would have been last year, speaks volumes of Ginny's place in Harry's life. Then again, I don't think a 6 week dating relationship should take precedence over a 6 year friendship. How Harry reacted is, to me, a very healthy reaction. For Harry to put Ron and Hermione down with Neville and Luna would have spoken to me as H/G being unhealthy. That would mean he is pushing aside his friends in favor of his 'love'. That type of alienation is a red flag for me. delwynmarch wrote: 4. We don't get any indication that he's *particularly* afraid for Ginny when he sees her being used as a practice target by a DE. Lynn: What did you want? To see Harry paralyzed in fear at Ginny fighting? He sees Ginny is in trouble and hexes the person attacking Ginny. What was Harry supposed to say, "Ginny go hide I don't want you fighting."? If that had been written then we'd hear that Harry was domineering and subjugating Ginny, 'imposing his will' on her. They are in the middle of a battle. Harry's focus is on Snape and Draco escaping and going after them. I think the point can be made that even though Harry saw the others fighting, including Ron, the only one he stopped to help was Ginny so Harry was looking out for Ginny. Then again, that also could be made into a negative that Ginny couldn't handle things herself. See how difficult it is to show things? delwynmarch wrote: 5. After Ginny takes him away from DD's body, he does not look for any comfort from her. And they don't share any intimate kind of support in the hospital wing either. Lynn: We see time and time again that Harry withdraws into himself rather than seeking external comfort. Whether that's his nature or something he's learned because he never had that outside comfort we just don't know at this time. Harry's behavior is consistent with what we've seen all along. We also see that Harry really hasn't had much experience in how to give comfort to people who need it. It's just not something he's learned because he simply hasn't really seen it very often. That said, Ginny is the one who can draw Harry away from Dumbledore's body even if he doesn't recognize it on a conscious level. I don't think that he's responding to her on a romantic level but on a friendship level. I conclude this based on their conversation going up to the hospital wing. Harry is talking to her as a friend, not as his girlfriend. His concern was for all the people involved, not just Ginny who he can see is okay, at least physically. Hermione runs and hugs Harry and that is consistent with their friendship, Harry accepts Hermione's need for physical comfort. We never saw hugs playing a part in the friendship between Harry and Ginny. So, while I would have liked to have seen Harry give Ginny a hug when she talked about Bill, I understand why he didn't. I would have given her the hug but that's not Harry's style. And realistically, I probably wouldn't have given the hug if I was 16. It's when I became a mother that I became a lot more physically demonstrative. Again, if Harry had excluded everyone else and just concentrated on Ginny, I would think their relationship quite unhealthy. delwynmarch wrote: 6. Ginny is not waiting for him when he comes back from McGonagall's office, and he doesn't look for her. Lynn: And this indicates what? Harry didn't go looking for Hermione either, he went looking for Ron, someone who has been with him since the beginning. Harry went looking for the male friend. I can see how Harry can't deal with emotions at this point. Again, we've seen this behavior before. It takes more than a few weeks to establish the type of intimacy needed to share the type of pain both Ginny and Harry would be going through. I would guess that Ginny and Hermione are together at this time. They've established that intimacy. I would see Harry forsaking Ron and/or Hermione in favor of Ginny or Ginny wanting Harry instead of someone she's more intimate with during this time as unrealistic based on their experiences and intimacy. delwynmarch wrote: 7. Between DD's death and his burial, it is written that "Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together." It says ALL of their time. No indication whatsoever that Harry and Ginny spend any time just the two of them together. Which makes the "it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort" fall extremely flat for me. If Ginny is supposed to be an even better source of comfort than Ron and Hermione, then why say that all four of them were always together? Lynn: We read this differently. I don't see it meaning Ginny but rather meaning Ron, Hermione and Ginny. The comfort isn't the romance but rather the friendship they all share. It's the friendship of all three he wasn't ready to forgo. delwynmarch wrote: 8. "'She's not that bad,' said Harry. 'Ugly, though,' he added hastily, as Ginny raised her eyebrows, and she let out a reluctant giggle." A BIG no-no for me, when someone doesn't feel free to say what they think. Lynn: I like this scene myself, it is so real to me. Hands up all the guys who have ever been asked by a girlfriend or wife if something they are wearing makes them look fat? Anyone ever had to guts to say, yea, it makes you look like a whale and live to tell the tale? How about those who have made a positive comment about a member of the opposite sex, seen the look at their spouses face and hastily added something ridiculously negative prompting the type a response Harry got from Ginny? There are times you need to say exactly what you feel, something both Harry and Ginny have done. This isn't one of those times. This, to me, showed Harry's understanding of Ginny's feelings on the subject of Fleur. delwynmarch wrote: 9. Ginny goes to bed after stating that she hasn't slept that well since DD's death, and Harry doesn't even get up to give her a private good-night kiss or a comforting hug. Now *that* speaks tons to me. Negatively unfortunately. Lynn: Why should he? This is the type of scene that plays out in my home every night. The first person going to bed gives the goodnight kiss. A comment about not sleeping well will only prompt a why if the reason is unknown, nothing if known as in this case. This scene just speaks to me of them being comfortable with each other, of understanding what is going on with each of them which is, for me, very positive. I also don't think Ron would have looked away pointedly if it was just a little peck. delwynmarch wrote: 10. Percy is present at breakfast on the morning of DD's burial. We are told that Ron pretends not to have noticed him, but nothing about Ginny who is sitting right next to Harry. Lynn: What does that have to do with their relationship? We're told that because of Ron not because of Ginny or Harry or their relationship. I think it foreshadows Ron wanting to punch Percy which we read later on. delwynmarch wrote: 11. At the same breakfast, Ginny gives Harry a nudge in the *ribs*. That's unthinkable to me. If they are so physically comfortable with each other, then there are hundreds of much nicer ways to attract his attention. Lynn: Why unthinkable? Yes, if she had poked him hard with her elbow I can see it as a problem but a nudge in the ribs? That's a pretty standard thing to do when you don't want others to see you're waking someone from their thoughts or to let them know they need to pay attention to something. It's also something that can only be done if you are sitting very close to each other. Just because you may not like it yourself doesn't mean there is something inherently negative about it. Many people use that as a means of silent communication without taking it as negative. My poor husband has had me nudging him in the ribs while patting his arm if I really want his attention about something. delwynmarch wrote: 12. When they go to be seated for the funeral, it is written that "Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny filed into seats at the end of a row beside the lake". Ginny is included in the Quatuor, she and Harry are not singled out as a couple. The order of the names doesn't even reflect the seating arrangement, since apparently, from what I understand, Harry is a the end of the row, with Ginny next to him, and then Ron&Hermione. Lynn: Again, I don't get the significance of this. You seem to want to make them separate from other people which to me would be unhealthy. The underlying relationship here is the friendship between all of them and the comfort level they've come to due to that friendship. If anything, the fact the names aren't in such a specific couple order underscores the friendship aspect and not the romantic aspect. delwynmarch wrote: 13. It is specified that Tonks and Lupin are holding hands, but no such specification for Harry and Ginny. Lynn: Sorry, the exact quote is "...Tonks ...; Remus Lupin with whom she seemed to be holding hands;" (UK p. 641) So, it appears that way but we don't know for sure. Yes, that's being pedantic but since we're getting so picky, it seemed appropriate. That section is to let us know that it appears Tonks and Lupin have become a couple and has no bearing on Harry and Ginny as we already know their relationship. delwynmarch wrote: 14. If Ginny and Harry were holding hands, Ginny wouldn't need to whisper in Harry's ear or to nudge him to attract his attention. Lynn: That's not true. As good a relationship as I have with my husband, we don't use hand-holding language to convey anything besides I love you or the like. It's used to convey emotion, not information. I still need to speak for him to know what I'm thinking - in most things. Just how exactly was Ginny supposed to point Harry to the sound of the merpeople by holding his hand? That took words. The nudge, again, is to point his attention to something. Unless a couple have determined that a squeeze of the hand means I want your attention, using hand-holding language will not convey what Ginny was trying to convey. delwynmarch wrote: 15. When Harry starts to cry, he looks away from Ginny and the others. That does NOT speak of emotional intimacy to me. Contrast this with Ron holding Hermione and stroking her hair (something we never saw Harry do with Ginny), while openly crying at the same time. Lynn: This speaks about Harry, not about their relationship. We see over and over again how Harry holds sensitive emotions inside. He won't cry in front of Ron or Hermione either. Even when he wanted to howl over Cedric's death, he kept it in. To expect him to have been able to develop the type of intimacy that would enable him to openly cry in front of Ginny in such a short period of time is unrealistic. Talk about sending the wrong message. Even after six years he doesn't feel that comfortable with Ron and Hermione. Harry spent a childhood learning how to not show certain emotions. He learned that certain things, like crying in front of people, will make things worse, not better. I can pretty much imagine the reaction of Vernon and Dudley to any tears from Harry. Harry has learned to make that private. A person doesn't overcome that in a short time no matter how much they love someone. delwynmarch wrote: Ok, there are SO many things wrong in this scene that I don't even know where to start! 16.1. The telling is opposed to the showing. * At the beginning of the scene, JKR tells us that Ginny knows what Harry is about to do and why. And yet her very first question contradicts that statement. * JKR says that they understand each other perfectly, and yet Harry doesn't understand that Ginny doesn't care about becoming a prime target for LV, and Ginny doesn't understand that Harry is afraid to be hurt again. Lynn: One difference is I see that question as more of a statement, not a question from Ginny. That question opens the dialog in which we learn what Harry is doing and why. If JKR had left it as they understood each other perfectly we as the readers would still be in the dark. Where does it say that Harry doesn't know that Ginny wouldn't care about being a target and that Ginny doesn't understand Harry's feelings? Again I see that as a device so the readers will know what is happening. As was pointed out in another post (sorry, don't remember the author right now), Ginny and Harry have silently understood each other. The difference is that the reader also knew what was happening without having to have the Ginny/Harry dialog. delwynmarch wrote: 16.2. There is absolutely NO emotional support given or received by either Ginny or Harry. Neither indicates that they know what the other is going through, nor do they offer words of sympathy. Lynn: And you want what? To see emotional support the way you would show it or have it shown you? I see emotional support in their words. The way Harry tells Ginny he wishes they'd had longer, the way Ginny lets Harry know she understands his need to go after Voldemort. This is so realistic to me based upon their entire relationship, not just the short romantic one. delwynmarch wrote: 16.3. Harry dumps Ginny and doesn't offer her any consolation. No "I love you", no last kiss, no "I'm so sorry", no "I don't mean to hurt you", no nothing. Lynn: Sorry, I think saying I'm leaving because I don't want to see you killed because we're together is a pretty good indication of his love. The miserable gesture spoke volumes, to me at least. delwynmarch wrote: 16.4. Harry doesn't dump Ginny to protect *her*: he does it to protect *himself*. He's not afraid that she would die: he's afraid of what HE would feel if she died. And he doesn't care about making her miserable, as long as he can protect himself. That's not sacrifice, that's selfishness (and trust me, I *know* the difference, just ask my husband). Lynn: I'm sorry for you if that's your experience. If my husband would say to me what Harry says to Ginny I would know he loves me and wants to protect me, not think he's being selfish and protecting himself. It's the relationship that underscores the words and Harry has proven he puts others before himself. delwynmarch wrote: 16.5. Harry *imposes* his will on Ginny. He gives her NO say in the decision. A huge no-no for me. And when she tries to give her opinion, Harry basically accuses her of wanting to hurt him. Lynn: You've lost me. At this point bitterness about something appears to be clouding how this is being seen. First, as has been pointed out by others, breaking up does not take two. Second, when Ginny gives her opinion of why Harry wants to break up, Harry explains to her why he feels the need, how he would feel as if he would be to blame for her death and she would still be alive if not for him. He's not basically accusing her of wanting to hurt him. And no, I don't think something like this can necessarily be a joint decision. There are times a person has to do what they feel is the right thing to do no matter the effect it may have on others. Just ask anyone who's had to be the holdout on the jury of a particularly volatile case where they know their decision is going to crush someone. delwynmarch wrote: 16.6. *What* were they talking about during all those hours together, if Ginny didn't even get around to tell Harry about Hermione telling her to get a life?? Lynn: What did they talk about all summer? Just because it might have been the first thing on your agenda doesn't mean it would be the first thing on someone else's. I don't think I ever directly told my husband what it was that prompted me to speak to him the first time. He first found out when I answered that question posed by someone else. He and I had life to talk about, which was much more important and interesting. I don't think you can judge a relationship on how soon they discussed every detail of how they finally came together. Personally, I think the first thing they would end up discussing was the reaction of Ginny's family. delwynmarch wrote: 16.7. They are both deluding themselves as for the real reason they didn't get together earlier. Harry says it's just because he didn't ask Ginny sooner, when the real reason is that he simply never saw Ginny before, he was completely smitten with Cho. And Ginny says it's because Harry was too busy saving the world, which is not true either. Lynn: Again, I don't see where you get that from the conversation. The way I read it, they both acknowledge that Harry hadn't thought of Ginny as a partner prior to this year. Harry is expressing his regret that he didn't see it sooner and Ginny is expressing that Harry's thoughts haven't always been on things romantic. Harry's main focus was never on Cho, she was a sideline. Now that was a good example of how not to have a relationship. Sorry, don't see anything delusional in what Harry and Ginny are saying. Perhaps you would have been happier if there had been a big fight with lots of recriminations? delwynmarch wrote: 16.8. "I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting LV". Happy... Seems like Ginny isn't the most important thing in Harry's life indeed. Lynn: And when my husband told me, after 9/11, that if asked he would be volunteering to go into a war zone (he's in the military), it never occurred to me that I or our daughter weren't the most important things in life to him. Sometimes in life, there are things that are just important to do no matter who you have to leave behind. delwynmarch wrote: 16.9. "Maybe that's why I like you so much." The hero-worship is still there. Ginny likes Harry because Harry is a knight in shining armor. I don't consider *that* to be a sign of deep and mature love. Lynn: You see it as hero-worship. I see it as respecting the integrity and resolve that Harry has to finish something that needs to be done. It's one reason I love my husband. He's willing to go to war to obtain peace and I consider that I have a deep and mature love for him and not just hero-worship. If Ginny was still in the hero-worship phase she wouldn't be comfortable around Harry and wouldn't be able to put him in his place the way she has done. I see her as over the hero-worship and instead seeing him for the man he is becoming. delwynmarch wrote: 17. People have said that Harry dumping Ginny is a sign of his deep and mature love for her. How can this be, since Harry is dumping *everyone*, including Ron and Hermione? Harry wants to go *alone*, he says so himself. He expects Ron and Hermione to know that too, which shows how little he understands *them*, which in turn doesn't bode well of his understanding of Ginny. Lynn: Does Harry love Ginny? Yep. Does he love her the way a man married to a woman for 10 years would? Nope. They haven't had time to establish that type of love, friendship yes, romantic love? No. If he didn't really love Ginny, in some way, he would be selfish and only care to bring along the comfort she gives him. Instead, he's worried that she'll be more of a target than she already is because of their relationship. His hope is that with the relationship over Voldemort won't seek out Ginny to make her a target. Gee, shades of Dumbledore and Harry in OoP. Harry is also thinking about Ron and Hermione when he wants to dump them as well. This is pretty standard Harry stuff by now. Harry cares that he isn't putting his friends in harms way. Personally I think he takes their refusal to be left behind a whole lot better than he usually does. delwynmarch wrote: 18. When being told that he must come to the Burrow for Bill and Fleur's wedding, Harry does not, not for one moment, think of Ginny. One would think that the words "the Burrow" and "Ginny" would be associated in Harry's mind, after all the telling about how Harry got closer to Ginny after spending the summer with her at the Burrow. But no! Harry thinks of the Burrow, he thinks of what a happy time it will be, and he thinks of how good it will be to have some peaceful in company of Ron and Hermione, but NO thought *whatsoever* of Ginny come to his mind. Lynn: And he's not thinking about anyone else he'll see there either. No, his mind is on what the future holds in store and he's thinking that the three of them will have one more day of peace before they go to war. Seems pretty natural to me. For all your protestations of an unhealthy relationship, I find the all-consuming relationship you appear to be looking for to be what I would think is unhealthy. What I've seen is a friendship that's grown into something more. Is it a mature relationship? Of course not. First, they are 16 and 15 years old with all the growth that still needs to happen and second they haven't been together long enough to have established the type of relationship you appear to be looking for to "show" that they are this couple. What I have seen is the beginning of a very healthy relationship. They have not lost themselves in each other but rather are still two individuals who are learning about each other. They don't exclude others but include them in their relationship. Harry does come with the type of upbringing that makes it difficult for him to be demonstrative. He has a very protective nature. I am also one that has the opinion that Ginny isn't going to let Harry go quietly. Her not causing this great big scene at the funeral speaks more of her understanding the type of person Harry is and giving him the time he needs before further advancing her arguments than of her quietly acquiescing. The biggest problem I see with this book is that it is part one of two and many of the issues brought up here may very well be addressed in the second part. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 19:31:37 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:31:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP Gryffindor password In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136274 flyingmonkeypurple wrote: TO all you people out their thinking that J. K was sugesting sex why would she put abstinence in the book. I think she is trying to say something. JUST SAY NO!!!!! " I've got something for you ,Harry ", said Hermione, neither looking at Ron or giving any sign that she had heard him." OH hand on password. Abstinence." "Precisely" said the Fat Lady in a feeble voice,and swung forward to reveal the portrait hole. Chater seventeen page 351. flyingmonkeypurple Marianne S: Don't forget, however, what the context of the word was... the fat lady had, as it says on the same page, imbibed to much alcohol. Same page as above: "What's up with her?" asked Harry. "Overindulged over Christmas, apparently," said Hermione... "She and her friend Violet DRANK their way through ALL THE WINE in the picture of those those drunk monks down by the Charms corridor. Anyway..." the emphasis on DRANK ALL THE WINE was mine. Context aside, the primary definition for abstinence in most, if not all, non- medical dictionaries relates to forgoing food or drink. See below. ab?sti?nence n. 1.The act or practice of refraining from indulging an appetite, as for food. 2.Abstention from alcoholic beverages absti?nent adj. absti?nent?ly adv. Synonyms: abstinence, self-denial, temperance, sobriety, continence These nouns refer to restraint of one's appetites or desires. Abstinence implies the willful avoidance of pleasures, especially of food and drink, thought to be harmful or self-indulgent: "I vainly reminded him of his protracted abstinence from food" (Emily Bront?). Self-denial suggests resisting one's own desires for the achievement of a higher goal: I practiced self-denial to provide for my family's needs. Temperance refers to moderation and self-restraint and sobriety to gravity in \bearing, manner, or treatment; both nouns denote moderation in or abstinence from the consumption of alcoholic liquor: Teetotalers preach temperance for everyone. "those moments which would come between the subsidence of actual sobriety and the commencement of intoxication" (Anthony Trollope). Continence specifically refers to abstention from sexual activity: The nun took a vow of continence. So, I think that not only by definition but the actual CONTEXT with the drunk Fat Lady and the fact that neither Ron nor Ginny seemed all that chuffed to see Lavender and Dean respectively, the thought that this was intended to be a JUST SAY NO (to sex) message makes for a leaky SHIP indeed. ;) Marianne S, who is reminded that these books are great tools for teaching vocabulary. ;) From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 3 19:35:31 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:35:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: <20050803191330.1738.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050803191330.1738.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42F11C83.90801@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136275 > --- Sharkbait wrote: > > > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. this part, (OotP pg.841) "The > > one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." Snape was > > caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that prophecy. > > and the part where it says "... and either must die at the hand of the > > other for neither can live while the other survives." now that has me > > confused with all the other,neither, eithers so I think it's 2 others > > and 1 either? I'm am hoping someone smart will read this and explain it > > to me. Sharkbait Kathy writes: This is an even more interesting theory if we understand that Snape is now in a position to over-see the confrontation between Harry and Voldemort. The prophesy says "at the hand of the other" meaning same place, same time, rather than "by" the hand of the other. Regardless of who wins the confrontation, Snape is in a position to kill Voldemort if he wins, kill Harry if he is an accidental horcrux thus again destroying Voldemort, or remove the horcrux from Harry if JKR intends him to survive. This would explain the "neither can (be allowed to?)live while the other survives". KJ From monalila662 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 19:56:05 2005 From: monalila662 at earthlink.net (lisa graves) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:56:05 -0000 Subject: Tonks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136276 Hi again, Has anyone discussed the wierd and sudden appearances Tonks makes throughout HBP? She's at the burrow when Harry gets there, She just happens to find Harry on the train. Then she just happens to show up outside the Three Broomsticks when Harry catches Mundungus, and then she just happens to be on the 7th floor corridor outside the room or requirement? she said she was there to see DD, but his office was on the other side of the castle?!?! Do you think she was really stationed at Hogsmeade, or is she Harry's bodyguard? I'm also confused as to her Patronus and why it would change and Snape's comments regarding her patronus. Anyone have a theory on all this? From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 3 19:57:14 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:57:14 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136277 --John Kearns: >>> 3) Finally, When were the Horcruxes created, and who was >>> killed in the process? --Juli: >> Ring: Morfin Gaunt >> Locket: The Riddle family (dad, grand parents) >> Nagini: the old man (the gardener at the Riddle house) >> The others? who knows! --John K: > Remember that Riddle was wearing the ring - indicating to > Harry that the Riddle family was already dead - when he > asked Slughorn about Horcruxes (so he probably couldn't > use them to create the Horcruxes). And Morfin died in > Azkaban. So... it looks like Frank Bryce is the only one > we even have a clue about. I thought it was fairly well implied that Voldemort created the first Horcrux (likely the ring) when he killed his father. Dumbledore mentions him reserving the process for "significant" murders. VM clearly had the ring available to him at that point, and the ring had particular significance in connection with the murder since it came from his mom's family. True, he had not yet had the conversation with Slughorn at that point, but I think if you reread the conversation it is at least plausible that Tom already knows how to create a horcrux (and even has done so) at that point, and that he really raised the subject with Slughorn because he wanted to get around to the question of how many. If you do read the conversation as indicating that VM does not yet know how to create a horcrux, then you must assume that he did not learn until sometime thereafter, as Slughorn does not give him enough information to do it (e.g., they do not discuss what the spell is, how it is cast, at what point it is cast, how it is directed at the soul fragment, etc.). Although he might also have found it significant to imbue the locket at the time of a murder involving his father's family, we know that he did not have the locket at that time because he acquired it when he was working at B&B after graduation. He did -- we believe -- own the diary at that point and could have made it a horcrux when he killed his grandparents. I am not so sure, however, that he was comfortable with the idea of multiple horcruxes before vetting it with Slughorn. Returning to the locket, conceivably it or the cup may have been made a horcrux at the time he killed Hepzibah Smith (I think we are pretty clearly intended to assume that he did that). He might have viewed her death as suitably significant given that she had been the owner of those items, particularly the locket which he considered his birthright. I can't remember and don't have the book with me, but is there any strong implication in HBP that Nagini was made a horcrux at the time of Frank Bryce's murder? It doesn't seem to fit the "significance" test -- even if Voldemort figured out that Frank was his grandparents' old gardener (and there is no indication he did), what was the particular significance of his death? Also, it would seem more in character for VM to have completed his quotient of seven horcruxes before he returned to wizarding society to begin VWI. -- Matt From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 3 20:02:44 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:02:44 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: <42F11C83.90801@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > --- Sharkbait wrote: > > > > > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. this part, (OotP pg.841) "The > > > one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." Snape was > > > caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that prophecy. > > > and the part where it says "... and either must die at the hand of the > > > other for neither can live while the other survives." now that has me > > > confused with all the other,neither, eithers so I think it's 2 others > > > and 1 either? I'm am hoping someone smart will read this and explain it > > > to me. > Sharkbait > > Kathy writes: > > This is an even more interesting theory if we understand that Snape > is now in a position to over-see the confrontation between Harry and > Voldemort. The prophesy says "at the hand of the other" meaning same > place, same time, rather than "by" the hand of the other. Regardless of > who wins the confrontation, Snape is in a position to kill Voldemort if > he wins, kill Harry if he is an accidental horcrux thus again destroying > Voldemort, or remove the horcrux from Harry if JKR intends him to > survive. This would explain the "neither can (be allowed to?)live while > the other survives". > KJ this does lend itself to some spinning, doesn't it? Could Snape be the one who approaches - or is it just fancy seer-talk for the upcoming birth of Harry? If it is Snape would kills Voldemort, by killing Harry(accidental horcrux), a lot of children and adults will be horrified. I won't be, as I am a HUGE fan of S.King and in his books, the *good,nice* people are usually dead at the end of the day :) Or if Snape & Harry defeat Voldemort together, then what? Could it be that the neither can be allowed to live while the other survives is really Harry & Snape? Big, bloody battle or will Snape just back-slap(magically, of course) Harry and Harry is dead? I like Rowling, but I don't give her that much credit to come up with that type of storyline in book 7 - the kiddies won't understand it - too many grays in there. but I like it...just don't think that is what the prophecy was referring to.... colebiancardi From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 20:04:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:04:20 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136279 > >>Leslie41: > > The labyrinth of houses seems to be the web that Snape inhabits, > and the mill chimney seems to caution Narcissa--against what? > Against *him*, of course. She is approaching the Spinner--Snape. > Any reading of the chapter that does not see Snape in this role-- > as wholly manipulating the situation and drawing both the sisters > into his "web," misses the point I think. > > He is the seducer here, not Narcissa. I think it is entirely > possible he doesn't know anything at all about the plan until > Narcissa and Bellatrix show up, and only figures it out from their > conversation. > Betsy Hp: Really good post, Leslie. This is how I read the scene as well. Snape is fully in control from the moment the sisters apperate into his neighborhood. I do think, however, that Narcissa got a dig in at the end of the chapter, though I'm not sure she even realizes what she has done. Regardless of whether or not Snape knew the plan from the beginning (I suspect he did, just from his lack of digging) I'm quite sure he's figured it out before he decides to enter into an Unbreakable Vow. The question then becomes, why *does* Snape enter into the vow, especially without knowing the terms beforehand? I think the answer is the absent member of the party: Draco. Draco is the reason Narcissa places herself at Snape's mercy in the first place and I believe it is to give himself room to protect Draco that Snape enters into the vow. There is one thing all in the room agree on: Voldemort does not mean for Draco to survive. His death is the perfect way for Voldemort to punish Lucius for his failure in the DoM. Narcissa first asks Snape to talk Voldemort out of using her son. Snape tells her that he cannot do so. "The Dark Lord will not be persuaded, and I am not stupid enough to attempt it," said Snape flatly. "I cannot pretend that the Dark Lord is not angry with Lucius." [...] "In other words it doesn't matter to him if Draco is killed!" "The Dark Lord is very angry," repeated Snape quietly. "He failed to hear the prophecy. You know as well as I do, Narcissa, that he does not forgive easily." (HBP scholastic p.34) This leads me to believe that Voldemort would not look kindly upon Snape interfering, even in an attempt to help Draco. But if Snape can explain to Voldemort that he was manipulated by Narcissa's tears into taking an Unbreakable Vow to protect Draco it gives him the space to manuver. (I have a feeling Voldemort is comforted by such examples of human weakness he feels himself beyond; it means, to his mind, that Snape is really no match for him despite his abilities.) I'm quite sure that Snape read such an intention in Narcissa's mind. And by taking the vow Snape has an easy excuse for interfering. However, Narcissa is no idiot. She also realizes that she'll need something with which to appease Voldemort. So she tacks on the final promise, if Draco fails Snape will finish the job. This way she can explain to Voldemort that though she was protecting her son, she was in no way interfering with Voldemort's plan being accomplished. I don't think she felt she was playing a fast one on Snape. She seems to trust him completely and Snape did say that he was next in line for fulfilling Voldemort's wishes. So though Narcissa does catch Snape in his own web, it's more by mistake to my mind. Betsy Hp From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 20:06:27 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neville's ADD?? In-Reply-To: <1123097499.1583.35219.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050803200627.2586.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136280 Maggie wrote: "4. Neville Longbottom seems to have some kind of Learning Disability or ADD. I don't think he's truly a "duffer" since he does so well in subjects like Herbology, Charms, etc." Morgan here: I disagree. I think Neville definitely has a problem, but I don't think it is ADD - his problem is primarily memory. It's been said before, but I think he was there when Bellatrix was torturing his parents (not sure if he saw it or was also tortured). I think Neville suffers from overuse of memory charms in order to erase these memories from his mind. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 3 20:12:01 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:12:01 -0000 Subject: I the HBP (was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136281 > Alla: >Again, don't have the book with me now, but it sounded to me as if >he still calls himself that name. Potioncat: Quote: "You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It "was" I who invented them?I, the Half-Blood Prince!" (emphasis mine) First off, I agree, it sounds...odd...it actually sounds like bad writing. So I think JKR had a reason for doing it. Either there is still something important about the title, that is, Hermione is wrong about its being a play on his mother's name, or he's using it as past tense. I see it as "It WAS I...I the Half-Blood Prince" I don't think he's using it as a grand title now, but identifying himself as the owner of Harry's Potions book. Potioncat: snip Keep your mouth > > shut, close your mind, don't use my spells against me.... > > Alla: > > LOL! Maybe it would help him defeat Snape. :-) > > Seriously though, I again getting back to the question Janeway raised > earlier - does that advice sound to you as advice of someone > who "understands" Harry and wants to teach him something? Potioncat: I'd like to know how Snape was teaching them to fight off Dementors. I'd like to know who had a better method: Snape or Lupin? Or is one way better for some wizards, and the other way better for others. Do I think Snape understands Harry? Yeah, bout as well as Umbridge understood Potions. But, Snape probably only knows one way to perform Occlumency. Maybe there is only one way. But I'm reasonably sure that if Harry is "emotionally" thinking a spell, LV will pick it up. I think that's what Snape is trying to communicate as he departs Hogwarts. Potioncat From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 20:12:15 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:12:15 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136282 Interesting discussion. I just have one thing to add: Snape supposedly overhead only part of the prophecy. Was it the last part? Suppose he missed the first part, and Dumbledore found this out by questioning him when Snape went to him to confess. Dumbledore is no dummy. Perhaps he kept Snape at Hogwarts to make sure the "power to vanquish" was directed in the right way, after years of what he considered to be positive reinforcement. I am also thinking "at the hand" may mean "by the side of" -- but this is leading me nowhere. lealess From ngermany at excite.com Wed Aug 3 20:16:18 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:16:18 -0000 Subject: Ollivander a Death Eater? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136283 shadychrs wrote: > With Ollivander's disappearance in HBP, does anyone else think he has > gone into Voldemort's service? Years ago I used to think so. Grey eyes are so rare and he and Lucius both have them. I posted my thoughts but someone reminded me that DD told Harry (in Book 4, I think) that Olivander wrote to DD soon after telling DD about Harry's wand. I now think not. Ollivander has been acknowledged by others as being the best (Anyone remember who else besides Hagrid?) He is a professional with high prestige--no reason to write DD at all. And because he is a so very good I now think he's hiding from Moldymort. Or Moldy took him out. Elizabeth From ngermany at excite.com Wed Aug 3 20:01:52 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:01:52 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: <007201c5984e$55606960$8424f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136284 > Sherry Gomes wrote: > > > And yet, in the series, *mothers* are portrayed as the ones who > are the> loving, wonderful, giving, life sacrificing parental > figures. > Even Narcissa > > comes off sympathetic in her role as mother. Fathers, however, > don't come > > off too well, From James to Lucius, they are portrayed as less in > We don't know what kind of a father Amos Digory was, so I don't really > include him in the list of fathers. 1. James Potter as a parent. The pensieve scene was "created" when James was a child at school. Lupin and Sirius both agreed he grew out of it. (Remember, too, that memories can be tampered with.) James and Lilly conceived Harry when they were older during the first Vold War and it's a sure bet that circumstances had caused them to mature before his birth. I'm now wondering if Harry was an accident. 2. You've plenty of fodder for Amos. Amos Diggory, despite his conceit, has to be a good parent. Cedric was the Hogwart's Champion and he was popular to boot. Developing such an exceptional young person requires good parenting. Period. 3. Lucius Malfoy. He's a horrible person. He's creating a young man in his image. But we're digressing. You had a two pronged argument: that the characters are too stereotypical and that the fathers are mostly evil. What I found myself groused about was your stance on the mother's in the book. Your tone implied that you found them....placed upon a pedestal. And I don't agree. None of her characters are shown to have Christ-like perfection. I see plenty of positive and negative qualities in them all. Elizabeth From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 20:27:00 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803202700.44806.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136285 --- colebiancardi wrote: > this does lend itself to some spinning, doesn't it? Could Snape be > the one who approaches - or is it just fancy seer-talk for the > upcoming birth of Harry? The thing is, there are two lines in the prophecy mentioning "The one with the power to vanquish Dark Lord". Grammar wise they don't match up. The first one worded in present tense: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ...". It is "approaches" as in present tense, not "will be approached" nor "approaching" as if a baby is coming or will be born. The last line: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...", if one will be born, the one can't be "approaches" at the same time (remember, its' not worded in a 'it's coming~ from the future' way. And why repeat about "The one with the power to vanquish Dark Lord" twice? Why is this repeated twice, with inconsistent grammar? If Harry is the one will be born, then he can't be the one who "approaches." > I like Rowling, but I don't give her that much credit to come up with > that type of storyline in book 7 - the kiddies won't understand it - > too many grays in there. Again, "and either must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... " can open to many interpretations. Who is the 'either' and 'other' if they weren't meant to be about 2 people, but 3 people? How do the half-blood trinity: Voldemort, Snape and Harry fit in? Remember what JKR said, Harry is now as personal with Snape as with Voldemort, what's the literary purpose of that? Could it be because there are actually three people in the Prophecy? D. From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 20:21:44 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:21:44 -0500 Subject: Dumbledore's Will In-Reply-To: <1123097499.1583.35219.m22@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123097499.1583.35219.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05080313212c7b0f7a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136286 houyhnhnm102 writes: > Does Dumbledore have a will? (Sirius did.) What will it reveal? Will > Harry get the pensieve? =================== Lisa responds: I think Dumbledore would've definitely been prepared for death, and this includes the writing of a will. While he does have a brother, Aberforth, who was in the original Order, I would hope Harry would be the beneficiary of a few things pertinent to his quest, particularly the pensieve and all the bottled memories that go along with it -- and perhaps Dumbledore was SO prepared that he left many memories (of himself musing aloud in his office, perhaps?) of his own for Harry. Lisa/SassyMommyOfThree From ColleyF at missouri.edu Wed Aug 3 20:33:47 2005 From: ColleyF at missouri.edu (Frances Marie) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:33:47 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny/Harry, Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136287 > Del replies: > This definitely shows that the readers' experience accounts for a lot > in how they understand a romance that is little developed. > > Harry/Ginny: many people have said that they enjoyed being able to > project their own experience of teen romance on that ship. I, on the > other hand, hated not being told more about them, because I have *no* > teen romance experience to project on the ship, so it just feels empty > to me. JKR provided an outline: some were able to fill it in because > they knew from experience what the whole picture looks like, but I was > unable to fill it in because I have no idea what the picture is > supposed to look like. I am left with only the worthless, empty outline. Fran: I can kinda see the need to have "experience" in order to fill in the gaps; however, I don't think it's necessary for readers to have had a teenage romance in order to understand Harry and Ginny. If I was any character from the books as a teenager, it would be either Luna or Snape; however, when I read the scene where Harry comes back from detention and sees Ginny--and just kisses her because she had that "blazing" look in her eyes/on her face, it worked for me. Not because as a teenager, I had a romance like that; nor because I've kissed anyone like that upon seeing a particular "blazing" look on their face (not that I'd be against it; I just haven't). Heck, I can't say any of my relationships have panned out so well that I could relate it to any of the relationships in the books--maybe I'm gifted and have a vivid imagination. I didn't NEED for Harry to have been pining for Ginny for three books for this to make sense--because I truly believe it can occur to you one day that, hey, I do love her/him. You refuse to accept it because it's taboo for one reason or another: she's my friend's sister; he's my best friend; etc. I can believe he realizes that he won't be able to see her whenever--because they are in different classes, different grades, and she's dating someone else--and it bothers him. I can see where he realizes he loves her truly--and it's not necessary to have the stomach pains of anxiety that came with dating Cho. And it's not like he's not attracted to her. His nighttime dreams where he's very glad Ron can't do Occlumens is rather apparent that the scenerios weren't probably PG. And if you still don't care for them as a couple because Ginny isn't likeable because she's a "hothead"--bear in mind, so is Harry. They should understand each other completely--since he was practically unbearable in OotP. If she's sarcastic and irreverent (if her imitations are anything to go by), she's not the only one. Ron is frequently both; as is Harry; and as is Hermione (though she doesn't necessarily do imitations--she IS sarcastic and can unman a young man at 10 paces if he doesn't watch himself). Don't generalize that the only people who can get H/G together are those who had "the experience". Some of us get it just fine, regardless of experience. Fran. From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 3 20:38:13 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:38:13 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: <20050803202700.44806.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136289 > Again, "and either must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the > other survives ... " can open to many interpretations. Who is the 'either' and 'other' if > they weren't meant to be about 2 people, but 3 people? How do the half-blood trinity: > Voldemort, Snape and Harry fit in? Remember what JKR said, Harry is now as personal with > Snape as with Voldemort, what's the literary purpose of that? Could it be because there > are actually three people in the Prophecy? > > D. like I said, I like the theory - VERY MUCH SO!! It is very exciting and a new twist to the plotline - could explain why Snape hates Harry so much, if he understands more about the prophecy than he lets on. Also, I think DD knew as well - he wasn't always forthcoming with Harry on a lot of things, as we well know. Maybe that's the reason why DD trusted Snape so much, because he was one of the two that would have to work together to kill Voldemort. Harry destroys the horcruxes and Snape is the one who will actually kill. I guess I think it may be too much for children - as Snape has been made out to be ESE in their minds(all black & white for kids) and after book 6, he is really looking quite bad. And Harry HATES Snape so much - will he even understand the subtleties of the prophecy - even Snape tells Harry he doesn't understand the *subtleties* of Legitimens, nor potion making - Harry is very much a black & white, good & evil kind of guy. It would be kewl if this is what the prophecy means - would love to see how Rowling pulls it off. colebiancardi(3rd post of the day...gotta remember that) From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 20:40:34 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:40:34 -0000 Subject: SHIP Gryffindor password In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136290 flyingmonkeypurple wrote: TO all you people out their thinking that J. K was sugesting sex why would she put abstinence in the book. I think she is trying to say something. JUST SAY NO!!!!! " I've got something for you ,Harry ", said Hermione, neither looking at Ron or giving any sign that she had heard him." OH hand on password. Abstinence." "Precisely" said the Fat Lady in a feeble voice,and swung forward to reveal the portrait hole. Chater seventeen page 351. vmonte: Ha, very funny. I didn't even notice this in the book. I'm rereading scenes (from the first 5 HP books) and I've noticed that Ginny is always described in feline-like/sensual ways. Since almost everything is seen from Harry's point of view, I guess he always, at least unconsciously, perceived Ginny as a sensual person. Apparently Harry likes the sexy-type. I don't have much to add except that I was looking for a Harry/Ginny picture today for my blog and I came across my first fanfic site. Two hours later my face is still "red" from the Harry/Ginny (tryst) fanfic I read. When did I turn into such a prude. Oh God, I'm my mother! Vivian From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 20:43:14 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:43:14 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_flawed_plan_-_Snape's_Vow?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > Eggplant wrote: > > If Snape is good then he would have to be brain dead dumb to make > > the Unbreakable Vow, every explanation I've read trying to explain > > this away are lame in the extreme. > > > > Hi There! (zgirnius): > > I found this to be the single most problematic action in the book, > personally. You consider the explanations you've seen presented here > lame. Do you have a better one? > > Preemptively, I would like to point out the three word annswer > "Snape is evil" is not the answer to every question about Snape. I > am quite willing to entertain the idea that Snape is evil, either a > loyal DE, or in it for himslef somehow, and evil. The problem is > that Snape is not stupid. > > An evil Snape who cares about noone/nothing but himself ought not > take a UV to protect Draco. Why risk his own life in this way? > ...edited... > > zgirnius bboyminn: I'm reminded of a Genie's Wish . The typical Genie story is that some poor soul finds a magic lamp or other enchanted object, rubs it, and a Genie comes out and grants him three wishes. But Genies are notorious for trying to pervert every wish, trying to twist your words around so that they can grant the wish literally, but not necessarily as intended. For example, for one of your wishes you could wish to be rich, and suddenly a suitcase filled with a million dollars in $100 bills would appear. But what can you do with that cash? You can't put it into the bank because any deposit or withdrawnal over $10,000 will send flags and raise questions with the tax man. Most stores won't take large amounts of cash. For example, you are very unlikely to be able to buy a house or even a car for that matter with a suitcase full of cash. So while you have cash, you are by no means rich, and you have lots of problems. So, the point is, even when your wish is very straight forward, the Genie is always looking for loopholes, looking for ways to twist your words and wishes against you. Now let's transfer this to the Unbreakable Vow, and see if we can find the loopholes. The Vows - "Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?" "And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?" "And, should if prove necesary... if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" 1.) '...watch over...as he attempts...', well, that's not too hard or even dangerous, and it really is a vow that can't be broken. All he has to do is 'watch'. 2.) '...to the best of your ability...', now that's certainly a loophole. Again, he only has to do his best, he doesn't have to succeed. 3.) Three points here; a)'should it prove necessary', 'if Draco will fail', b)Snapes hand twitched, c)'carry out the deed'. Let's look at 'b)' first, Snape's hand twitched. I think it is clear that Snape realizes that he has reached his limit. He knows what comes next is more unqualififed, no 'try' or 'attempt', but he's already in too far, he can't back out. But still 'the deed' is never mentioned, nor is there an implied time frame. Exactly what 'deed' is it that Snape is Vowing to perform? Yes, we naturally assume that it means he will kill Dumbledore if Draco can't, but you're thinking like a human, not a Genie or Snape. Draco's primary on-going objective was to fix the Vanishing Cabinet so the DE's could get in; maybe that is the 'deed' that Snape vowed to help with. Also, note that no time frame is specified. So even if it is iron-clad 'kill Dumbledore' does he have to do it that second, that day, ...week, ...month, ...year, or merely at some point in Dumbledore's lifetime? That looks like a really big loophole to me. As long as Snape maintains an intent to finish Draco's work, to kill Dumbledore, he is safe. Also note regarding 'the deed', Snape says he knows what the Dark Lord plan is, and what Draco is suppose to do, but I think it's pretty clear he is bluffing. If he really knew then why all the questions to Draco? So, how can Snape vow to fulfill a 'deed' when he doesn't know what the deed is? In this case, he is vowing to nothing, because he really knows nothing of 'the deed'. So, the question here is, and this is critical, is he bound to what he knew when he made the vow, the 'deed' as he understood it them, or can he be bound to something he finds out after the vow was made, and more important, who gets to decide? To the one who is making the Vow, I think you want things as vague and general as possible because it introduces that maximum possible number of loopholes. For the person to whom the Vow is being made, I think you want things written up by a lawyer and spelled out in excusicating detail to prevent any loopholes. Fortunately for Snape, his Vow is based on Narcissa's verbal request in a time of deep emotional stress which I personally feel leaves tremendous room for loopholes and 'outs'. Despite getting in over his head, I think Snape understood the Unbreakable Vow well enough to know that if you have the right attitude, you can find plenty of loopholes. Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From mercia at ireland.com Wed Aug 3 20:45:59 2005 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:45:59 -0000 Subject: Another reason for Dumbledore's plea to Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136292 Besides all the arguments about Dumbledore prearranging something with Snape for just such a crisis as occurred on the tower, I thought of one further reason which may not have been discussed. I am sure from reading and rereading the last chapters that the potion from the cave was killing DD. He says sarcastically that it was 'no health drink' and we see him getting progressively weaker throughout the scenes that follow the cave apart from the adrenalin rush that the dark mark above the tower produced. Despite his mental and spiritual calm in the conversation with Malfoy and the Death Eaters he is physically deteriorating fast. Several times JKR refers to him slipping further and further down the wall. He initally insists Harry fetch Snape because as such an expert potion maker Snape is likely to be the only one able to get an antidote. When it becomes evident that the time for all antidotes is past DD begs Snape to deliver the final blow, not so much as an act of mercy but to spare Harry the crippling guilt of having been the one to kill DD. Harry had to force DD to take the potion at DD's own prior insistence. (Note the words JKR uses of Harry's feelings, hatred and repulsion at the act, echo the hatred and revulsion etched on Snape's face as he launches his killing curse). If he later came to realise that it was drinking that potion that killed DD, even if he did it under orders, Harry would be DD's killer. He could not live with that and he could not have energy for the fight ahead with Voldemort. But seeing Snape, whom he hates and distrusts anyway, doing this deed, fires him as nothing else could and spares him the guilt of bringing about DD's death. Snape is also now in the best possible position to undermine Voldemort from within the organisation. IMO it is one more way in which we see Snape, albeit reluctantly and possibly even bitterly, acting as Harry's protector at DD's wishes. Perhaps! Mercia From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 3 20:47:39 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:47:39 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > Geoff: > > This is not dissimilar to the real life situations of the two > > World Wars when guys not more than a year or so older than Harry > > went off to the war and many of them felt that it was only right > > and proper that links with girl friends and sweethearts had to go > > on the back burner because of the uncertainty of the future. > > Agreed, some of them got married before they went (I'm not > > suggesting that with Harry and Ginny by the way) but that was > > fraught with potential difficulties. > > These were the problems facing wartime budding romances. And they > > still face Wizarding World relationships during the current state > > of war. > > Not all of the guys came home after the two World Wars - but > > some did. Hopefully, there may yet be a time and place for the > > ship to weigh anchor again > Hickengruendler: > The war parallel therefore doesn't really fit, since the girl who > stays behind is as much in danger as the "soldier", and both of > them are IMO idiots not to decide to enjoy the time together they > have. Also, it bothers me a bit, that the safety of Harry's two > best friends, one of them also a girl, doesn't seem to matter very > much, since Harry doesn't seem to have any problems with them > accompanying them. Geoff: But in the case of the Second World War, the girl often /was/ in danger. Look at the casualty figures for the UK - people killed in the Blitz, especially in the London bombings and then in the V1/V2 attacks towards the end..... The men went off hoping that their loved ones would be safe behind them but it sometimes proved otherwise. Let us remember though that Voldemort is obsessed with Harry. It reminds me of Gandalf's remark in LOTR:ROTK where he points out that Sauron's gaze is so concentrated on Minas Tirith that he is blind to anything else going on. Voldemort seems to have been trying to get Harry directly in every attack. He has never tried to get at Harry through Hermione or Ron and his killing of Cedric was because Cedric, as Dumbledore pointed out, happened to get in the way. The interaction with Ginny in COS was between Diary!Riddle, Harry and Ginny - not Voldemort proper. So I don't expect to see him sending Death Eaters to The Burrow to seek out Ginny. Her profile will be much lower. Regarding your comment about Ron and Hermione supporting Harry in the next book, I have pointed out in another post that, by the beginning of their Upper Sixth year - assuming that Hogwarts manages to function correctly - all three of them will be of age and can make their own decisions. Ginny won't be. Ron and Hermione make it clear, very quietly but very resolutely, that they intend to be involved and, short of Harry chaining them to the wall, he can't physically stop them and he might well find their presence and assistance useful. Frodo did find that having Sam with him, despite his misgivings, helped to save the whole show. From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 3 20:52:04 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would you ask? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803205205.76126.qmail@unknown-206-190-39-12.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136294 Samantha wrote: Hi Potterphiles! If you had just one question to ask JKR, what would it be? I think I would ask, just HOW are the dementors breeding? I would really love to know the answer to that. What would you ask if you had a chance? Snapeophile Luckdragon: I hate surprises; so my question would be: Will Harry live or die? Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From weildman at cox.net Wed Aug 3 20:54:31 2005 From: weildman at cox.net (weildman) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:54:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803205411.BANW1531.eastrmmtao06.cox.net@sachsen> No: HPFGUIDX 136295 Um, parental roles are not a JKR issue; they are a common western issue. Dig through fairy tales and classic stories and you will always find sainted mothers. Most often the child only comes into real risk when the mother is absent or dead. Mothers never commit misdeeds- it is always the father or stepmother. Fathers are free radicals literature. They can be either saints or devils, helper or hinderers. Petunia is a rare exception to the mother saint model. Her treatment of Harry is typical of Hero-Surrogate Mothers relationships but her mistreatment of Dudley is atypical- but not without precedence (the Cinderella story of step mother and sisters relationship follows the same basic pattern of indulgence). Molly is an interesting maternal character because she is so flawed, so real. Her over-reactions and over-protection or her children is understandable but harmful and thus luckily thwarted by Arthur and the sheer number of children. She has taken responsibility for Harry and subjected him to her paternal logic. The biggest difference between Petunia and Molly is the absence of malice by Molly. Petunia's hate of magic and dislike of Harry infects her family and harms Dudley. Most of this pedestal writing is due to the intrinsic belief that women have a maternal instinct and will always act in what they believe is their children's best interest. Men do not have the same kind of culturally assigned parental assumptions and father characters are therefore able to act independently of a supposed biological imperative. We the readers are so used to this format that we typically react poorly to challenges to such beliefs. JKR is simply working within the confines of her society and enculturation. -trevor From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 21:12:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:12:36 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > Does Dumbledore have a will? (Sirius did.) What will it reveal? Will > Harry get the pensieve? > > houyhnhnm bboyminn: I've pondered this too, but I haven't really come up with any clear conclusions. I suspect someone as benevolent as Dumbledore would leave all or most of his 'estate' to the school, the one thing he truly loved in life. I've speculated before that the school is a free school that is supported by the orginal endowment from the Founders and managed by the Board of Governors, and by endowments from individuals living and dead. I suspect that's how Lucius got on the Board of Governors, he made a very substantial contribution to the school. But even if Dumbledore does leave the bulk of his wealth and personal possessions to the school, he could leave a few things to individuals. He seemed to be really fond of Hagrid, so I suspect Hagrid might get something. Logically, he might leave a few things, monitary or otherwise, to Harry, but it's difficult to name specific things. It is possible he would leave his Pensieve to Harry, but it's also possible that McGonagall would simply make access to the Pensieve available to Harry. One thing I had hoped for is that Fawkes would adopt Harry as his new companion. I think Harry could use a calming protective influence like Fawkes. A lot of loose ends need to be tied up; it's hard to believe that can really be done in only one more book. For what it's worth. Steve.bboyminn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 21:18:37 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:18:37 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing in OOTP for Snape the Spider... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136297 > >>Vmonte: > > The unpleasant spider-like instrument--could it be Snape? Betsy Hp: In a word? No. Or at least, not in my opinion. For one thing, the spider instrument attacks immediately and is immediately destroyed. Certainly doesn't follow Snape's method of operation, whether you see him as good or evil. > >>Vmonte: > I like what Sirius uses to smash the spider. Betsy Hp: That would be the book, "Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy" which sounds to be an ode to pure-bloodism. If we follow the Snape equals the tweezers analogy doesn't that mean that Snape will be killed by someone who deeply believes in the pure-blood philosophy? (Are you suggesting that Snape is a good guy? *I ask with a wink*) > >>Vmonte: > What is the importance of Snape's HBP moniker? (Besides the fact > that it's creepy and sounds like something an evil overlord would > do.) Betsy Hp: Well, considering the fact that the term "half-blood" has *never* been used in a complimentary fashion *especially* among those who value blood purity, I imagine it means that Snape had a bit of a hard time of it. Especially since his mother's maiden name, Prince, is added on to the end of the nickname. So Snape was the red-headed step-child, the bastard son, the not quite right cousin. He wasn't a pure-blood Prince, he was the half-blood, and as such was probably written out of wills and not invited to weddings and generally spoken of in whispers. Not very evil overlordy at all, IMO. > >>Vmonte: > Does Snape think that Voldemort's power as a wizard is due to the > fact that he had one muggle parent and one full blood parent? Is > Snape comparing himself to Riddle: "The Dark Lord?" Because this > super villain title then makes sense. Betsy Hp: I suppose this depends on how much a very much *not* connected schoolboy would know about Lord Voldemort's past as Tom Riddle. (Remember, Snape had, and presumably labled, his potions book in his fifth year at the latest.) I tend to think very little was known about Voldemort's past, since that is what Dumbledore tells us. And since Voldemort *hated* his father's name. And since Bellatrix went into minor melt down in OotP when Harry informed her that her great Lord was a disgusting little half-blood. > >>Vmonte: > > The sinister music reminds me of the song Snape sang to cure Draco. > Betsy Hp: Which just goes to show how differently two people can read the same book. I always thought of the phonix song, especially since Snape was healing Draco at the time. (I wonder, did Snape invent the cure he used? We've never seen Madam Pomfrey do the like.) Betsy Hp From leslie41 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 21:28:14 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:28:14 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Voldemort would not look kindly upon Snape interfering, even in an > attempt to help Draco. But if Snape can explain to Voldemort that > he was manipulated by Narcissa's tears into taking an Unbreakable > Vow to protect Draco it gives him the space to manuver. (I have a > feeling Voldemort is > comforted by such examples of human > weakness he feels himself beyond; it means, to his mind, that > Snape is really no match for him despite his abilities.) I'm > quite sure that Snape read such an intention in Narcissa's mind. > And by taking the vow Snape has an easy excuse for interfering. Ooh, can't agree with that. Because Voldemort loathes weakness of any kind, I don't think such an admission would comfort him at all, especially from the individual that Narcissa claims as "the Dark Lord's favorite." It's the other Death Eaters that suspect Snape more than Voldemort at this point. Snape can't make such an admission to Voldemort. It smacks too much of independent thinking. Voldemort does not want independent thinking. And as for the idea that Snape did it out of mercy and friendship...such concepts are not alien to Voldemort. They are, however, abhorrent. > However, Narcissa is no idiot. She also realizes that she'll need > something with which to appease Voldemort. So she tacks on the > final promise, if Draco fails Snape will finish the job. This way > she can explain to Voldemort that though she was protecting her > son, she was in no way interfering with Voldemort's plan being > accomplished. I don't think she felt she was playing a fast one > on Snape. She seems to trust him completely and Snape did say > that he was next in line for fulfilling Voldemort's wishes. So > though Narcissa does catch Snape in his own web, it's more by > mistake to my mind. Voldemort doesn't take a mother's love--the primary human bond--as any sort of reason for anything. Nor friendship. Nor mercy. That's his *problem*. The only possible reason to disobey him, as Snape points out, is a situation like Snape faced in GoF, where he claims he arrived two hours late after being summoned, but only to be able to remain as a spy at Hogwarts. That's why the scene at Spinner's End is so powerful. Everyone in that little room that feels like a padded cell, *knows* this. Leslie41 From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 21:33:15 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:33:15 -0000 Subject: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > Hi again, > Has anyone discussed the wierd and sudden appearances Tonks makes throughout HBP? > She's at the burrow when Harry gets there, She just happens to find Harry on the train. > Then she just happens to show up outside the Three Broomsticks when Harry catches > Mundungus, and then she just happens to be on the 7th floor corridor outside the room or > requirement? she said she was there to see DD, but his office was on the other side of the > castle?!?! > > Do you think she was really stationed at Hogsmeade, or is she Harry's bodyguard? > I'm also confused as to her Patronus and why it would change and Snape's comments > regarding her patronus. > > Anyone have a theory on all this? Given her unique abilities as a metamorphmagus, I would not be surprised if she was Harry's bodyguard or had some sort of post in Hogwarts. Her appearances were a surprise to me as well. Speaking of metamorphmagi, do they have distinctions that are recognizable to other wizards, like the animagi do? From saoirseobx at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 21:23:55 2005 From: saoirseobx at yahoo.com (saoirseobx) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:23:55 -0000 Subject: Kreacher and Dobby Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136300 When Dobby and Kreacher came back to Harry, Kreacher was plainly hating Harry at that point, but we don't hear any more about him. I'm wondering if he had anything to do with what Snape and Draco were up to. Also, the initials in the locket belong to Sirius's brother Regulus, I believe. Saoirseobx. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 21:46:32 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:46:32 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: <42F11C83.90801@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136301 snipped: Sharkbait wrote: > > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. this part, (OotP pg.841) "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." Snape was caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that prophecy. hg: Snape's birthday is January 9. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Aug 3 22:05:49 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:05:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <983219944.20050803150549@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136302 Tuesday, August 2, 2005, 3:54:28 PM, allies426 wrote: a> ** Lily's eyes - are we ever going to find out the significance? I agree with the theory that the "you have your mother's eyes" references are figurative, i.e. Harry sees the world in similar ways to Lily. a> ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help a> Harry? I hope so, after all the hints Jo has dropped that H.E.'s are very, very powerful. a> ** Find and destroy ALL the Horcruxes (if Harry does find them, how a> on earth is he going to learn how to destroy them when you can't a> even find in the entire Hogwarts library what they even are??), find a> and destroy Voldemort! I think he must enlist the aid of the Order. I frankly can't see how he can keep this secret and do it all on his own. a> ** What becomes of the Malfoys? I've been wondering -- Is Snape going to take credit for finishing off AD, or does the Unbreakable Vow oblidge him to cover for Draco? a> ** Harry & Ginny back together? I can't believe that Ginny's going to take Harry's "act of nobility" lying down. a> ** Does someone get Bellatrix Black? I'd really like to see her a> bite the dust, personally. Preferably in excruciating agony. a> ** Dumbledore's portrait - I don't think it will be able to give a> Harry any useful advice, but I'm sure he will try to speak with it a> anyway. Personally, I think we've seen the last of the Headmaster's Office. An encounter with Dumbledore's portrait would undermine Jo's message that death is permanent. I think any further "help" Harry gets from Albus will be through either pensieve memories or Aberforth. a> More loose ends? I still would like to hear Jo state once and for all that Mark Evans and his dad "Perseus" are both false leads and as irrelevant as the crumple-horned snorkack. -- Dave From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Aug 3 22:06:58 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:06:58 -0000 Subject: accidental horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elaine_munn" wrote: [snip] Imagine LV turns up to kill the Potters with creating a > horcrux in mind and possibly already having done so just needing a > home for it. When the Ak rebounds off Harry it sends the horcrux > flying only to find a home in Snape!!! Possibly without Snape even > realising. > Told you off the wall! Demetra: Well, I don't think it's too off the wall. I posted a similar thought in messge #133498 which got exactly, um, zero responses. Actually, I think that Snape being an unintended horcrux could explain a lot. Here's a possible scenario. We know that Snape was a Death Eater. I would imagine that he joined up right after Hogwarts. Snape has always been a sneaky one ? following the Marauders around. He also was sneaking around, listening at doors when he overheard the first part of the prophecy. Now, there was nothing in the portion of the prophecy he heard that would necessarily clue him into anything. Except that he knows that bringing this information to LV would probably raise his status and there is no evidence that Snape was anything but a loyal DE at that time. But then he learns that the Potters were one of the two potential targets. This is what brought him to Dumbledore and while I'd love to think that it was because he was truly repentant, I the real reason is the life debt he owed James. I think there may be an element of the life debt that compelled Snape to attempt to repay it by saving the Potters. So, Snape tells Dumbledore that LV knows ( the beginning of) the prophecy. I don't think this is Dumbledore's "iron-clad" reason for trusting Snape though. Dumbledore ain't that stupid ? witness his continued mistrust of Tom Riddle. Dumbledore is in communication with the Potters and attempts to help them go into hiding, offers to be their Secret Keeper, etc. Snape finds out that the Potters are going to use Sirius as Secret Keeper. Again, compelled to try and save James ? he goes and tries to convince him not to use Sirius, but to use Dumbledore. James shoots him down (remember Snape telling Harry that James was "too arrogant" to believe he was wrong about Black). Snape senses that the plan to keep the Potters safe may fail. He has a history of sneaking around and following people, doesn't he? Say he follows LV to the Potters hideaway in Godric's Hollow. Perhaps he even hides beneath James' invisibility cloak and watched (explaining how Dumbledore came into possession of the cloak after James' death/ the blow up of the house). He is not successful in saving James. The debt is transferred to the remaining Potters. Maybe his is the voice trying to convince Lily to take the baby and flee. She doesn't. Enter LV into the room. Now, I think that LV intended to create a horcrux that night but not in Harry. Recall all the previous posts about a potential link between the Potter home in Godric's Hollow and Godric Gryffindor? Perhaps there is some merit to that speculation and maybe there was some possession of Godric's in that home. This would be LV's intended horcrux object. But Snape (still under the cloak?) intervenes with a non-verbal spell when LV attempts to kill Harry/create the horcrux. The unintended result is a split with some piece of LV going into Harry and endowing him with some of LV's powers. But the "bad soul" piece of the horcrux goes into Snape. Snape is incensed that LV has done this to him (him, the half-blood prince!). LV has now damned him to either life with a piece of LV in him, or death. Snape doesn't take kindly to having this forced upon him. He vows that he will do all in his power to bring LV down. Here's what Snape knows: - Snape wants LV vanquished - Harry is the one who will have to vanquish LV - LV can't be vanquished until all horcruxes are destroyed - Snape has to die, and Snape knows it. - Plus, he still has the life-debt thingy with Harry. Dumbledore trusts Snape because despite everything, Snape has always worked to bring LV down ? knowing full well it will result in Snape's death. As to why Snape's such a git. Well, in my mind, a horcrux magnifies darkness and negativity - sort of like a live-in dementor. I think that the locket was in 12 Grimmauld Place, and that is why that home was so full of negativity. I think the horcrux piece in Snape brings forth every bit of nastiness that resides in him, almost obliterating any positive aspects. Plus, Snape knows that in the end, Harry will be the hero and get all the accolades. Snape will simply be ? dead. Demetra From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 22:10:08 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:10:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: <20050803192425.57396.qmail@web32711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136304 Lynn wrote: "And, as others, including myself, have stated, JKR cannot write for every person and address every experience each individual reading her books will have or have not had." Del replies: No, she can't. But that's precisely why I have a problem with her *expecting* that all her readers will be able to fill in the blanks in the H/G romance. As I said in another post, I can understand that she'd do that for a minor romance, like Fleur/Bill, or Lupin/Tonks. For those romances, she can take the risk that some of her readers won't understand or relate. Those are minor points, minor characters, so it doesn't matter. But Harry and Ginny are major characters, and their romance is a major event in the hero's life. So the fact that JKR didn't take any measure to ensure that a vast majority of her readers would understand their romance and relate to it seems like a major overlook to me. Unless, of course, she did *not* mean this romance to be a major event, just a nice little addition, which your post has made me realise is very much possible. Lynn wrote: "A big problem is we can't show you what you can't see." Del replies: Wrong. You did just that with your post :-) And some people who had the dubious honour of "fighting" hard against me on the -Feedback list some time ago would tell you that one should never assume that Del can't change her mind or can't be made to see what she doesn't see yet. Lynn wrote: "Personally, I don't think this will do a lot of good as you and I are coming from different POVs." Del replies: Wrong. It actually did a lot of good. You'll see. Lynn wrote: "From a lot of these points, I get the impression what you are looking for is what would come from a long-term husband/wife type of relationship and not a very short-term one that begins as a friendship and becomes more." Del replies: Quite a few people *have* said that Harry and Ginny have a mature relationship, which I thought meant that they saw it as much more than a very short-term relationship between two teenagers. If we now agree that the H/G romance is not meant to be anything special, and that the breaking up scene is *not* supposed to indicate that they had such a deep and meaningful relationship, then most of my problems disappear. lynn wrote: "The telling part to me was the hard, blazing look on Ginny's face before she threw her arms around Harry which gave Harry the okay to kiss her." Del replies: Hey :-) That "hard, blazing look" does not mean *anything* to me :-) I still can't figure out what it's supposed to look like or what it's supposed to convey. Lynn wrote: "A big point of the scene wasn't Ginny or even the Kiss, it was how Ron would react to the ship." Del replies: Except that we readers already knew that he would approve: he literally tried to shove Ginny into Harry's arms at the end of OoP. Lynn wrote: "What did you want? To see Harry paralyzed in fear at Ginny fighting?" Del replies: No, just a little stomach-twisting, or something like that. Lynn wrote: "I think the point can be made that even though Harry saw the others fighting, including Ron, the only one he stopped to help was Ginny so Harry was looking out for Ginny." Del replies: Extremely good point. Lynn wrote: "That said, Ginny is the one who can draw Harry away from Dumbledore's body even if he doesn't recognize it on a conscious level. I don't think that he's responding to her on a romantic level but on a friendship level. I conclude this based on their conversation going up to the hospital wing. Harry is talking to her as a friend, not as his girlfriend." Del replies: Well, yes, exactly! But I didn't think it was supposed to be a good thing!? Again, I repeat: if we are assuming that their relationship is barely more than their friendship (which is big), then I have very few problems. It's when I am told that they have this deep, meaningful, mature relationship that I don't get it. Lynn wrote: "It takes more than a few weeks to establish the type of intimacy needed to share the type of pain both Ginny and Harry would be going through. I would guess that Ginny and Hermione are together at this time. They've established that intimacy." Del replies: I completely agree. And that's why I had a problem with that supposedly deep and oh-so-special romance. Lynn wrote: "We read this differently. I don't see it meaning Ginny but rather meaning Ron, Hermione and Ginny. The comfort isn't the romance but rather the friendship they all share. It's the friendship of all three he wasn't ready to forgo." Del replies: That's not what everyone else has been saying! I've read again and again that it is *Ginny* and Ginny only that is supposed to be "his best source of comfort". Lynn wrote: "Just because you may not like it yourself doesn't mean there is something inherently negative about it. Many people use that as a means of silent communication without taking it as negative." Del replies: Yes, but that's where the absence of exposition of the H/G relationship comes in. I haven't seen Ginny do that to Harry before, and I haven't seen him reacting to it, so I don't know if they are supposed to consider it as positive. Remember why Ginny and Dean broke up? Because he always wanted to help Ginny through the portrait hole. Ginny hates that. I don't. It would never occur to me that this would be something so awful to a girl as to make her want to break up. Lynn wrote: "You seem to want to make them separate from other people which to me would be unhealthy." Del replies: That's only because I have been *told* that they are separate from other people. JKR tells us in the book that they spend lots of time together before DD's death, and it is the understanding of many readers that they have a very special relationship. I don't see that at all, but I am told that it is there. Lynn wrote: "To expect him to have been able to develop the type of intimacy that would enable him to openly cry in front of Ginny in such a short period of time is unrealistic." Del replies: Well, I did feel that I was expected to believe that they had attained a deep level of emotional intimacy and understanding... Lynn wrote: "One difference is I see that question as more of a statement, not a question from Ginny. That question opens the dialog in which we learn what Harry is doing and why. If JKR had left it as they understood each other perfectly we as the readers would still be in the dark." Del replies: Not me :-p The text was crystal clear to me, I could have done without the dialogue. In fact, the dialogue muddied things up for me. Lynn wrote: "And you want what? To see emotional support the way you would show it or have it shown you? I see emotional support in their words. The way Harry tells Ginny he wishes they'd had longer, the way Ginny lets Harry know she understands his need to go after Voldemort. This is so realistic to me based upon their entire relationship, not just the short romantic one." Del replies: Now that you point it out, it makes sense. But because there is no previous material to help me decode it, I just didn't see it. If there had been a decent exposition of their relationship, showing how they gave and received emotional support, I would have had a chance to recognise it during the break-up scene. I, Del, wrote earlier: "16.4. Harry doesn't dump Ginny to protect *her*: he does it to protect *himself*. He's not afraid that she would die: he's afraid of what HE would feel if she died. And he doesn't care about making her miserable, as long as he can protect himself. That's not sacrifice, that's selfishness (and trust me, I *know* the difference, just ask my husband)." Lynn responded: "I'm sorry for you if that's your experience." Del replies: It's my husband (my boyfriend at the time) you should be sorry for, I'm the one who did the dumping under the pretense of protecting him. That's why I *know* that it was ultimately selfishness and not sacrifice that was guiding me. Even though I thought I was doing it to protect him, I came to realise that the only person I was trying to protect was me. Of course I'm not Harry, so I shouldn't assume that Harry does it for the same reasons that I did it. But because so little help is given me in the text to help me understand what he's doing (and also, frankly, because it's downright silly: Ginny is no safer whether she's with Harry or not), I can't help but apply my own experience to his actions. (Incidentally, my then-boyfriend and I got back together almost right away because I was so shocked and surprised when he told me I had dumped him. I felt I was being so self-sacrificing, so, well, noble and good, that his use of that term, with all the cruelty it entailed, felt like a slap. Made me reconsider what I had done, real fast...) Lynn wrote: "First, as has been pointed out by others, breaking up does not take two." Del replies: But Harry didn't even try to discuss the matters over with Ginny. He didn't try to see how she felt about it, or if they could find a solution that would please them both. He simply imposed on her the solution that was most agreeable for him, without caring that perhaps it was the one that hurt her most. That's where the lesson from the Lupin/Tonks ship comes in IMO: Lupin thought he was doing a favour to Tonks by staying away from her, when in fact he was doing the most hurtful thing he could do, sending her straight into depression. Tonks and Ginny are both fighters. They are not afraid of taking risks, but they can't stand being left behind, it drives them crazy. This is a case of choosing what is easy over what is right, IMO. It was easier for Lupin to stay away from Tonks, and for Harry to break up with Ginny, but was it *right*? I'm not sure. If their so-called "best thing to do" ends up being something that does more damage to their girl than any other solution would, I don't call it right. Lynn wrote: "There are times a person has to do what they feel is the right thing to do no matter the effect it may have on others." Del replies: Hurting the person you claim to love in order to avoid being hurt yourself is *not* doing the right thing IMO. Going straight against the wishes of a person you claim to respect as your equal, for no other reason than you think you are more right than they are and you know better than them what is good for them, is not right either IMO. And finally, confining the person you love into a role that they simply can't fill is definitely not doing the right thing IMO. Lynn wrote: "What did they talk about all summer? Just because it might have been the first thing on your agenda doesn't mean it would be the first thing on someone else's." Del replies: And that's precisely why I needed to be told what they were talking about. Because when I do apply my own experience on to them, it simply doesn't work. Lynn wrote: "Perhaps you would have been happier if there had been a big fight with lots of recriminations? " Del replies: In a way, yes, because that would have been more in character with the Harry and Ginny I know, with their strong and fiery personalities. When I imagine Harry and Ginny together, I do *not* imagine a quiet and gentle relationship. I don't necessarily imagine an endless string of fights either, mind you. But I do imagine a lot of discussions and *compromises*. And that doesn't fit with the break-up scene. Add-on during the re-reading before posting: Actually, now that I think of it, the whole scene *is* starting to make sense... After all, the text does specify that *this time* Harry and Ginny understood each other, and that *this time* Ginny was not going to argue. I guess that's what her twisted smile meant: "I'll argue just for the sake of it, but we both know that I'll give in in the end". Lynn wrote: "And when my husband told me, after 9/11, that if asked he would be volunteering to go into a war zone (he's in the military), it never occurred to me that I or our daughter weren't the most important things in life to him. " Del replies: Your husband didn't tell you that he would divorce you before leaving... But I get your point. Lynn wrote: "Sometimes in life, there are things that are just important to do no matter who you have to leave behind." Del replies: I agree, but I'm not sure we agree on *which* things are so important ;-) Lynn wrote: "You see it as hero-worship. I see it as respecting the integrity and resolve that Harry has to finish something that needs to be done. It's one reason I love my husband. He's willing to go to war to obtain peace and I consider that I have a deep and mature love for him and not just hero-worship. " Del replies: What if you were a soldier too? What if you told him you wanted to go to war too, and he told you no, he wants to go alone, you stay behind where it's safe, and in order to make you even safer, he's going to divorce you before he goes? See, that's the difference between you and Ginny: Ginny is a soldier too. She's not going to stay safe at home, she's going to fight and take risks. So Harry breaking up with her supposedly to protect her strikes me as a noble intention, for sure, but an extremely silly one too. Lynn wrote: "Does Harry love Ginny? Yep. Does he love her the way a man married to a woman for 10 years would? Nope. They haven't had time to establish that type of love, friendship yes, romantic love? No." Del replies: That's a revelation! "Romantic love? No." Changes a lot of things... Lynn wrote: "Instead, he's worried that she'll be more of a target than she already is because of their relationship." Del replies: Reminds me of his "saving-people-thing" and his "Sirius won't die because of me"... But hey, that's one reason we like him so much, right :-) ? Even though he keeps getting it wrong *roll eyes* Lynn wrote: "For all your protestations of an unhealthy relationship, I find the all-consuming relationship you appear to be looking for to be what I would think is unhealthy. What I've seen is a friendship that's grown into something more. Is it a mature relationship? Of course not. First, they are 16 and 15 years old with all the growth that still needs to happen and second they haven't been together long enough to have established the type of relationship you appear to be looking for to "show" that they are this couple. " Del replies: Hum, *I* was not looking for a mature relationship: I have been *told* that it is there. JKR wrote in the book that Ginny makes Harry happier than he'd been in months or years, that Ginny is his best source of comfort, and she's said in an interview that Ginny is the perfect match for Harry. And many readers have written that Harry and Ginny indeed do have a mature relationship. It's precisely the fact that I don't see that and I don't think it's there, that frustrates me. So if you now tell me that I can safely go back to my initial impression that this romance was a nice little add-on on Harry's life, but nothing critical or life-changing, it will greatly simplify my problems :-) Lynn wrote: "I am also one that has the opinion that Ginny isn't going to let Harry go quietly. Her not causing this great big scene at the funeral speaks more of her understanding the type of person Harry is and giving him the time he needs before further advancing her arguments than of her quietly acquiescing. " Del replies: I also get a feeling that she's going to rally some allies to her side. People like Tonks, for example, who I doubt will be very happy with Harry's sacrificial attitude :-p Maybe also Bill or Lupin, and who knows, maybe even Molly? Lynn wrote: "The biggest problem I see with this book is that it is part one of two and many of the issues brought up here may very well be addressed in the second part." Del replies: Agreed. Conclusion: I had the wrong impression that those who were happy with the H/G romance all felt that it was obvious that it was such a deep, meaningful, mature relationship. I realise in hindsight that some of them might not have meant that at all, but it is very much what came accross. I also had the impression that JKR had meant the romance to be something deep and serious (well, fun but serious, see what I mean?). You tell me that you don't read it that way at all, and that helps. So now I feel very much liberated. I feel that it's OK for me to not overly care for that romance, or to not consider that Ginny has suddenly taken that *huge* place in Harry's life. I'm not worried anymore about missing something important in Harry's life, and it makes sense now that so little of his romance should be shown: it's because it doesn't matter that much. Thanks a lot :-) I hope you feel it was worth the effort. Del From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 3 22:12:03 2005 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:12:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP Gryffindor password In-Reply-To: <20050803191240.59273.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136305 Juli wrote: > but doesn't the Fat lady use the word Abstinence because she feels > bad about drinking a bit too much over the holidays? > > "Abstinence." > > "Precisely," said the Fat Lady in a feeble voice, and swung forward to reveal the portrait hole. > > "What's up with her?" asked Harry. > > "Overindulged over Christmas, apparently," said Hermione, rolling her eyes as she led the way into the packed common room. "She and her friend Violet drank their way through all the wine in that picture of drunk monks down by the Charms corridor. Anyway..." > > To me it's pretty clear she meant Alcohol Abstinence. Oh, I don't know. She could have been engaging in activities designed to lead to a future desire to abstain from monks, too. ;-) JKR's non-judgemental willingness to have her hero use copious alcohol to persuade Slughorn to disgorge his memory suggests that she is capable of keeping quite diverse aspects in mind, so it's hard to deduce much about her attitude to sex. David ...the dementors are breeding... From Nanagose at aol.com Wed Aug 3 22:12:17 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:12:17 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > snipped: > Sharkbait wrote: > > > > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. this part, (OotP pg.841) "The > one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." Snape was > caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that prophecy. > > > hg: > Snape's birthday is January 9. Christina: We were talking about this a few days ago, and whoever it was that started the threat (I'm so sorry I can't remember who it was!) said that since the "dies" is metaphoric, the "born" could be also. As in, a rebirth of sorts; As the seventh month *ends*, Harry enters the world, Snape realizes that Voldy is going to go for the Potters, and it snaps him out of "Death Eater" mode and sends him to Dumbledore. This is, of course, assuming that Snape was honestly remorseful when he approached Dumbledore and that it was the realization of Voldy's interpretation of the prophecy that lead him to switch sides (and that he actually *has* switched sides). Not totally out of the question, IMO. What I find interesting is the "power the Dark Lord knows not." Someone before suggested Occlumency, and that got me to thinking- does LV really know how good an Occlumens Snape is? He can't possibly. If someone could tell if another person was using Occlumency, then they could demand that the person "open their mind" to them until they couldn't detect the technique being used anymore (and only then believe what they say). So it must be impossible to detect whether Occlumency is being employed or not. This would make sense with what we've learned about the nature of Occlumency-- it's not as much putting up a wall, it's emptying your mind of anything a Legilimens could want to find in the first place. Lupin makes a comment at the end of HBP about Snape's skills as an Occlumens, but if there's no way to tell when someone is using the skill, it'd be easy for both DD *and* LV to say, "Well, I *must* be a better Legilimens than he is an Occlumens, so no worries." Christina From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 22:16:23 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:16:23 -0000 Subject: I the HBP (was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136307 > > > Alla: > >Again, don't have the book with me now, but it sounded to me as if > >he still calls himself that name. > > Potioncat: I see it as "It WAS I...I the Half-Blood Prince" I don't think > he's using it as a grand title now, but identifying himself as the > owner of Harry's Potions book. Alla: Thanks for the quote. I suppose we differ in its interpretation :-) You could be right, but then it begs the question WHY does Harry needs to know who was the owner of that book? Do you think it would help him somehow? I just don't see the prominence of Snape saying that in THAT way. Couldn't he just say that was MY book? I invented those spells? Why add "Half-blood prince" to the mix, unless he is still proud of that nickname, which to me brings only negative feelings especially because as some posters pointed out the only person who came up with imaginary name in the books so far was Voldie himself. Lord Voldemort, Half Blood prince... does smell like over blown egos to me, but that is just me of course. :-) > Potioncat. Do > I think Snape understands Harry? Yeah, bout as well as Umbridge > understood Potions. Alla: LOLOL! Great comparison. Potioncat: > But, Snape probably only knows one way to perform Occlumency. Maybe > there is only one way. But I'm reasonably sure that if Harry > is "emotionally" thinking a spell, LV will pick it up. I think that's > what Snape is trying to communicate as he departs Hogwarts. Alla: Oh, I get that this is what Snape was trying to communicate IF he is still a good guy. What I was questioning is whether it was necessary in any way, since IMO more likely than not Harry won't need occlumency to defeat Voldie. Just my opinion, Alla, who thinks that Potioncat is a lot of fun to disagree with. :-) From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Wed Aug 3 22:18:42 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:18:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge Message-ID: <1f2.f04ed4c.30229cc2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136308 I just want to point out too, is that Ginny does alot, and has a temper, but I don't think Ginny would be the type of person to go off the handle and argue with Harry at DD's funeral. We may see her argueing with harry about the breakup in book 7. If I was Ginny I would be seething, but I wouldn't make a scene at the funeral. I would wait until later, when we were alone and not having an audience and then tear him to pieces with his stupid logic. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 22:30:02 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:30:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Ginny/Harry, Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136309 Del replies: > This definitely shows that the readers' experience accounts for a lot > in how they understand a romance that is little developed. <<>> I've agreed with everything you've said thus far about the H/G ship, but I'm going to have to disagree on this point. I've had similar teenage experiences as the kids from HP, so I can empathize with them on a certain level. However, I still don't get the H/G relationship as it happened in HBP. (It was simply devoid of any depth!) According to your theory, just because I know what a "teenage romance" is supposed to be like, I'm supposed to understand the Harry/Ginny ship. However, no amount of projection made me empathize with that ship. (Then again, since I've been know to say that Romeo & Juliet, widely considered to be one of the best romantic story of all time, is shallower than spit, so maybe I'm just cynical.) Like Fran said, real life experiences don't help in liking or disliking the H/G ship. I think it's just whether or not you accept JKR's word as truth. For me, I accept *no* author's worth as truth without proof, and JKR gave *me* zero proof that the H/G relationship had anymore depth than any fairy tale princess and her knight/prince. ~Ali From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 22:39:21 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:39:21 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136310 > >>Elizabeth: > > Speaking of ruthlessly manipulating....Molly Weasly. It's a > subject well worn here that she isn't the best role model mother. > But neither is she the worst. Her influence on the children is > somewhat balanced by her husband's influence, which is the way a > good marriage/partnership should work. And you can site > contradicting examples but by and large the Weasely children (even > Percey) are a good group of young people. So, all in all, she did > her job well, ie, she is a good mother. For all those here who > want to slam her(she raised seven children!)she works very hard > and without much help from her husband (Arthur works a lot of > overtime; although when he is home he shows some support) AND with > little to show for it at the end of the day. I'm sorry, but I > have to say this to those who are still blasting her...those of > you raising fewer than three children have not a single clue as to > how hard her work is. > Betsy Hp: Speaking as someone who loaths Molly Weasley and her methods of mothering, I think her children are a *perfect* example of how she's *not* a good mother. Her two oldest boys have not only left home, they left the country. It took a war to bring back her eldest and he managed to pick out a girl to marry guaranteed to put Molly's back up. (And a girl who seems well able to stand up to Molly, so congratulations Bill.) Percy has turned his back on his family. Which, considering the abuse he put up with from his family, was hardly surprising. And Ron has *huge* self-esteem issues (illustrated by his quidditch playing) that come near to crippling him at times. Ginny is an accomplished liar and has a rather cruel temper when she's pushed. The twins hold a special place, because I think they are most Molly's boys. And their path is littered with distruction. From the animal they bludgeoned to death at the age of seven, IIRC, to the classmate they nearly murdered, to the muggle-baiting they took part in (and if that isn't a tip of the hat to their dear old dad, I don't know what is), to the team-mate they nearly killed, the partnership of Fred and George is a disturbing one. And I've not even mentioned what they've done to Ron and Percy. As to Molly's relationship with Arthur, their marriage doesn't seem all that great, IMO. (It answered a lot of questions for me when Ginny implied that Arther and Molly rushed their marriage.) Arthur works all the time. And when he's home he's tinkering in his shed (working with nasty muggle things, completely against Molly's wishes). Arthur isn't a horrible father and he isn't a bad man, but he's disengaged from his family, and it shows, I think. He should have been around to lay some real disipline down on the twins and to protect Ron and Percy from their attacks. As far as managing so many children on such a tight budget, I do think Molly does a good job there. She's a wonderful cook and apparently a decent seamstress (except where Ron is concerned). I did cringe when she brought her family (and Harry!) right into their empty bank vault. It's probably a personal thing, but in our family parents *never* talked about finances in front of the children. Honestly, I doubt JKR is trying to make Molly ESE, or even completely cruel. But I do think, with her wicked sense of human foibles she gave Molly flaws that just happened to be the ones that grate on me the most. Betsy Hp (who seriously sees OBHWF as a great big myth, even if the current ships sail into the sunset) From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 22:57:19 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:57:19 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Del Wrote: > So now I feel very much liberated. I feel that it's OK for me to not > overly care for that romance, or to not consider that Ginny has > suddenly taken that *huge* place in Harry's life. I'm not worried > anymore about missing something important in Harry's life, and it > makes sense now that so little of his romance should be shown: it's > because it doesn't matter that much. Max responds: Sorry for the giant snip, but I really didn't have any additional comments to add that differed significantly from Lynn's. I wouldn't automatically assume the relationship doesn't matter that much just because H/G were not portrayed as soul mates in this book. Like Lynn, I believe we were witnessing the beginning stages of a relationship that might very well become more serious in Book 7. We don't have enough of a feeling for H/G yet to be able to definitively state that the relationship will continue to grow, but I think enough of the groundwork has been laid so if JKR does decide to deepen the relationship (which I believe she will) it will feel like a natural progression. Max From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 23:16:53 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:16:53 -0000 Subject: I the HBP (was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136312 Potioncat: > First off, I agree, it sounds...odd...it actually sounds like bad > writing. So I think JKR had a reason for doing it. Either there is > still something important about the title, that is, Hermione is > wrong about its being a play on his mother's name, or he's using > it as past tense. I see it as "It WAS I...I the Half-Blood Prince" > I don't think he's using it as a grand title now, but identifying > himself as the owner of Harry's Potions book. Alla: >.......it begs the question WHY does Harry needs to know who was > the owner of that book? Do you think it would help him somehow? > I just don't see the prominence of Snape saying that in THAT way. > Couldn't he just say that was MY book? I invented those spells? > Why add "Half-blood prince" to the mix, unless he is still proud > of that nickname, which to me brings only negative feelings > especially because as some posters pointed out the only person > who came up with imaginary name in the books so far was Voldie > himself. > >Lord Voldemort, Half Blood prince... does smell like over blown >egos Jen: You know, I sorta agree with Potioncat's joke that it was bad writing. I mean, I don't think it was really bad, but I think that sentence was JKR matching Snape's dialogue to the overblown drama already in progress. No one would actually *say* that in RL, but it sounded so forceful, so dramatic, so surprising in that moment. As for the plot reason, Snape wants Harry to know the potion book is his, because he doesn't want Harry to use it. From the scene in the bathroom: "Apparently I underestimated you Potter," he said quietly. "Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic? Who taught you that spell?" (chap. 24, p. 524). The only surefire way to stop Harry from using the book is for Snape to reveal that he is the HBP. If he never uses that *specific* name, Harry won't belive the book belongs to Snape because he doesn't want to. Now if you're in the ESE camp, Snape doesn't want Potter learning any more Dark Magic because he might use it against the DE's or Voldemort to his advantage. He was pretty effective against Draco. He's actually showing talent, if Snape is complimenting him. ;) For those of us in the camp of There's-Something-Fishy!Snape or Good! Snape, Snape said that because he doesn't want Harry going down the same road he went down. Snape started with a little sarcasm, a few spells, a few hexes, then the spells started getting darker. In HBP, Harry was certainly starting to throw around dark curses with wild abandon! Did you see how many he tried with Snape? He'll never defeat the Dark Lord that way. It's a dead-end. Jen From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 23:20:09 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:20:09 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136313 Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard that ever lived, tells Harry that the reason he is drinking the potion instead of Harry is that Harry is MUCH more valuable. Yes, Voldemort transfered powers to Harry. So far they have shown up in experiencing Voldemort's thoughts & feelings; speaking parseltongue; the ability to fight the Imperious Curse--I might be missing a few other things but there doesn't seem to be anything HUGE that makes Harry so valuable in defeating Voldemort. The protection that saved his life by Lily's sacrifice will be gone when Harry turns 17. I don't think having the brother to Voldemort's wand will mean anything in the future, since we are learning so much more about non- verbal spells. And then there's love. Well, hey, is there anyone more capable of defeating a Dark Wizard with love than Dumbledore? I'd venture he has the capacity for even MORE love inside him than Harry! The prophecy is self-fulfilling, DD answered that question...they could both just walk away if they wanted so there is no penalty involved like the Unbreakable Vow. So what IS it that is so unique and VALUABLE about Harry? I just hate to think that at the end of book 7, the OOTP, Ron, Hermione and Ginny are all pointing their wands at Harry and Voldemort's final confrontation, all with tears in their eyes as they have to destroy Harry the Horcrux and then Voldemort. From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 3 23:20:16 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:20:16 -0000 Subject: I the HBP (was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136314 > > Alla: > > Thanks for the quote. I suppose we differ in its interpretation :-) > > You could be right, but then it begs the question WHY does Harry > needs to know who was the owner of that book? Do you think it would > help him somehow? > > I just don't see the prominence of Snape saying that in THAT way. > Couldn't he just say that was MY book? I invented those spells? Why > add "Half-blood prince" to the mix, unless he is still proud of that > nickname, which to me brings only negative feelings especially > because as some posters pointed out the only person who came up with > imaginary name in the books so far was Voldie himself. > But perhaps Snape wants to make sure that Harry knows that HE knows about it - the Half-Blood prince reference was to ensure that Snape KNEW that Harry would understand, without a doubt, that Snape was the owner & creator of those spells. Whereas if he just said, "it was my book, you dunderhead"....would Harry really believe him? Harry viewed "Prince" as his "friend" - to have Snape tell him he knows about the nickname, well, that kind of drives it home for Harry - It's teen-Snape who has been mentoring him all year long in potions...it's teen-Snape who had given Harry his first success in performing a non-verbal spell. that has to burn Harry's behind... colebiancardi(4th post of the day - ouch) From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Aug 3 23:51:09 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:51:09 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136315 > > ***Much of Rowling's understanding of the origins of evil has to do > with the role of the father in family life. "As I look back over the > five published books," she says, "I realize that it's kind of a > litany of bad fathers. That's where evil seems to flourish, in > places where people don't get good fathering."*** > So we have a number of fathers to examine, and to see if in fact most of the evil characters have bad fathers....also have to look at mothers in my next post and see if in fact they are all the stereotype of noble, self-sacrificing, wonderful creatures...I disagree with JKR, in that I think her characters, like many people are influenced by both fathers and mothers.... Fathers: Tom Riddle, Jr. father to Tom Marvolo Riddle, later styling himself Lord Voldemort. LV has bitter hatred against his father who he believes abandoned his mother just because she was a witch. He knows that his father never was interested in him, and left him to languish in the orphange. He kills his father, and later uses his bone to reincarnate. Phew! Well, even giving Tom Riddle, dad, some slack if we assume he was enchanted into marrying Merope Gaunt Riddle, he's not such a good dad. And LV is evil. (see next post on mothers - Merope Gaunt) Tobias Snape, father to Severus Snape. We have a glimpse of Tobias from the Pensieve in the OoP. Many have assumed, I believe rightly, that Tobias was abusive to Eileen Prince (see next post mothers.) Snape may be an example of some of the damaging effects witnessing domestic violence has on a child. He seems to have taken on his father's cruelty to others with less power. Whether he's on the side of LV or DD ultimately, I suggest that this is one of the bad father litanies JKR was discussing. Lucius Malfoy, father of Draco Malfoy. Lucius bullies and lectures Draco. Lucius himself is a DE. Draco is also cruel and vicious and a bully. Draco is, however, loved by his mother (see next post Mothers - Narcissa Black Malfoy). Mr. Goyle, father of Gregory Goyle. A Death Eater father with a son who toadies to Draco and who is fast on his way to be a DE himself. Mother unknown Mr. Crabbe, father of Vincent Crabbe. Same as above. Mother unknown. Bartemius Crouch, Sr., father to Barty Crouch, Jr. Father is rigid, overcontrolling, fanatic who does great injustice to many, including Sirius Black who he sends to Azkaban without a trial, and his own son. Barty Sr. is portrayed as sacrificing his own son to his personal ambition and lust for power -- first in his neglect while the son was growing up and then in sending him to Azkaban. Barty Crouch, Jr. is hiimself evil, emulates his hero LV, and kills his father. BC, Jr., evil spawn of another in the litany of evil fathers. See next post mothers. Nott, a death eater, father of Theodore Nott, a crony of Draco's. Marvolo, father of Morfin and Merope. Well, poor Marvolo gets killed by grandson Lord Voldemort, but that's the nicest thing we can say about him. Filthy, bigoted, abusive, inbred, and like father, like son....Morfin obviously has major mental health issues and also ends up in Azkaban, framed by Lord Voldemort. Marvolo hasn't been very supportive of his daughter's self-esteem...see next post, mothers Sirius' father. We don't know his name. We know that he favored Regulus, was an adherent of LV and a fanatic pure blood (although not a DE. Sirius was so unhappy at home that he left as soon as he could, and was taken in by Harry's paternal grandparents. See below Sirius' mother. JKR says Sirius is a case of "arrested development." He ended up being very unhappy, although it's hard to say whether this was solely due to his parents' rejection (and his rejection of their beliefs) or to his unjust imprisonment and loss of his best friends. See next post - Mother Black. Vernon Dursley, father to Dudley Dursley and stepfather to Harry. Vernon is no cartoon character, and is not added for comic relief. He, too, is a bully, and has raised a bully. JKR has said that the Dursleys have hurt Dudley as much as they have hurt Harry. In fact, Dudley beats up Harry, participates in scapegoating him, enlists others to ostracize him, etc. etc. Bully father/bully son. (See next post Petunia) Grandfather Potter, father to James, seems like a nice guy, takes Sirius in. James Potter, father to Harry....despite some bad acting out as a teenager, James is still the heroic father, saving Snape from Sirius, fighting Lord Voldemort, beloved of Lily and Sirius, esteemed by DD., etc. See Below, mother. Mr. Thomas, biological father of Dean Thomas, who abandoned Dean as an infant. Mr. Thomas left his family in order to protect them, refused to join the DEs, and was later killed by him. Hagrid's father, a human wizard, of whom Hagrid has wonderfully warm memories, who loves him and teaches him to be proud of himself. "('Never be ashamed,' my ol' dad used ter say "there's some who'll hold it against you, but they're not worth botherin' with.)" Mother Fridwulfa is a slightly different sort (see next post). Dr. Granger, father of Hermione Granger. Seems like a nice guy; obviously proud of Hermione. see next article mother Arthur Weasley, father to Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred, George, Ron, and Ginny. I love Arthur. I think he and Molly are great parents, and will defend Molly in my next post. Arthur obviously loves his kids, cares about Harry, is kind and loving to MollyWobbles, is protective of the Muggles, is one who DD immediately turns to as an ally after Voldemort rises....Works hard, is not ambitious, but does his duty. Great glimpse of Arthur at the Quidditch world cup. Accompanies Harry to the hearing, stands by him, and opens his home to him repeatedly despite increased danger, and annoying security measures in HBP. Frank Longbottom, father to Neville Longbottom. Frank and Alice are in St. Mungo's having been tortured by dear Bella. All we know about Frank is that he was an auror and very brave. We can imagine that Neville might have had an easier time if his father had been around to raise him. Amos Diggory, father to Cedric Diggory. Amos is inordinately proud of Cedric, boasts about him and is devasted by his death. Mr. Lovegood, very eccentric, or slightly crazy, editor of the Quibbler, father to Luna Lovegood who takes after him. Posted by Susan McGee, northern California. If you want to join Harry Potter for Grownups Over 40, please email me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 00:02:46 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:02:46 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136316 > Max responds: > > Sorry for the giant snip, but I really didn't have any additional > comments to add that differed significantly from Lynn's. > > I wouldn't automatically assume the relationship doesn't matter that > much just because H/G were not portrayed as soul mates in this book. > Like Lynn, I believe we were witnessing the beginning stages of a > relationship that might very well become more serious in Book 7. We > don't have enough of a feeling for H/G yet to be able to definitively > state that the relationship will continue to grow, but I think enough > of the groundwork has been laid so if JKR does decide to deepen the > relationship (which I believe she will) it will feel like a natural > progression. It won't feel like a natural progression for me. There is something wrong with the romantic subplot of a story if the hero has more scenes alone with a competely different girl than the one he supposedly likes or the only date he goes on in the story is with different girl than the one he cares for. It was a giant copout and poor storytelling to not show the post kiss walk or any other bonding scenes after they begin dating. Harry is clearly opening up more with Ginny than he ever did with Cho. Why? What has made him change the way he acts around girls? What do they talk about? Why should I care even slightest about the break up when we almost never saw them together? We saw the trainwreck that was Harry/Cho in technicolor. Why shouldn't we get at least the same with the girl that is supposedly perfect for him? I hate the character of Ginny, the way she is written, the very idea of H/G, and pretty much every scene that has her in it and I am arguing that we didn't get enough Harry/Ginny in the story! that should tell you how badly I think this romance was written. would ten extra pages have killed an extra tree or something? why couldn't it have been a little longer to flesh out this couple. I did after all pay to get the authors interpretation of Harry's adventures and loves and not a skeleton to hang my own vision on. I want hers damn it! I leave with this thought: The title of the current anti-H/G thread at fictionalley is called 'Even George Lucas is laughing at you'. Pretty much says it all. phoenixgod2000 From jmkearns at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 00:08:48 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:08:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136317 I haven't participated in any shipping discussions yet - too busy defending my ideas on Horcruxes. But the recent conversations enlightened me and gotten me thinking (the reason I joined the group! Bravo!) and so here I am, burning my final post of the day in response. > > Del Wrote: > > So now I feel very much liberated. I feel that it's OK for me to > > not overly care for that romance, or to not consider that Ginny > > has suddenly taken that *huge* place in Harry's life. I'm not > > worried anymore about missing something important in Harry's > > life, and it makes sense now that so little of his romance > > should be shown: it's because it doesn't matter that much. > > Max responded: > Like Lynn, I believe we were witnessing the beginning stages of a > relationship that might very well become more serious in Book 7. We > don't have enough of a feeling for H/G yet to be able to > definitively state that the relationship will continue to grow, > but I think enough of the groundwork has been laid so if JKR does > decide to deepen the relationship (which I believe she will) it > will feel like a natural progression. John K now: While reading all of this, I was pondering teenage relationships, and have a couple of insights that I hope are pertinent. First, as Lynn originally said, this relationship isn't that old. As a result, as Del said, I think it's probably not too important - right now. I think laying the groundwork for it, though, IS important, for the role the relationship could play in the next book (once we've seen more of it, hooray!), as Harry and Ginny grow and mature in regards to each other - whether they're together or apart. Second, I think it's worth remembering that at Harry and Ginny's age - and most especially with their experience - while we adults who have been in serious relationships or marriages know that they are far from being deeply in love, they have no perspective on it. So they feel like it's a HUGE thing - after all, it really is the happiest anyone's ever made them feel! - but they have no sense of what could be to come. I think there are hints that Harry thinks he's falling in love, but I think it's also pretty clear that he hasn't, at least not yet. But try telling any high schooler in a committed relationship that it's just 'puppy love,' and you might want to watch out for items flying at your head. ;) JMO, John K From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 00:20:09 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: parental roles in HP books - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804002009.44498.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136318 Betsy Hp: Speaking as someone who loaths Molly Weasley and her methods of mothering, I think her children are a *perfect* example of how she's *not* a good mother. Her two oldest boys have not only left home, they left the country. It took a war to bring back her eldest and he managed to pick out a girl to marry guaranteed to put Molly's back up. (And a girl who seems well able to stand up to Molly, so congratulations Bill.) Juli: Are you joking? or it it sirious? many people leave the country to persue careers, Charlie wanted to work with dragons, and since there aren't any in the UK, he had to go to another country. Bill applied for a job as a curse-breaker at Gringotts, and the goblins sent him to Egypt, he could either accept it, or find a job elsewhere. >>Percy has turned his back on his family. Which, considering the abuse he put up with from his family, was hardly surprising. Juli: I was shocked when it happened, the Weasleys are a loving family. Percy decided to leave all on his own. >>And Ron has *huge* self-esteem issues (illustrated by his quidditch playing) that come near to crippling him at times. Juli: so what? he is the 6th son, all his brothers have been good at everything, he has to work hard to keep up with 'their' expectations. I don't see him with low self-esteem, Neville does, not him, I've never heard him talk about how much he sucks at anything besides Quidditch, and I think he's kinda right there, he sucks -sometimes- at Quidditch, and it's all because his nerves. >>Ginny is an accomplished liar and has a rather cruel temper when she's pushed. Juli: When you were 15 didn't you lie to your mom? I did, and a lot. When is she cruel? when she casts a bat-boggers or whatever on someone? it's not cruel it's funny, if she was crucioing everyone, that would be cruel. >>The twins hold a special place, because I think they are most Molly's boys. And their path is littered with distruction. From the animal they bludgeoned to death at the age of seven, IIRC, to the classmate they nearly murdered, to the muggle-baiting they took part in (and if that isn't a tip of the hat to their dear old dad, I don't know what is), to the team-mate they nearly killed, the partnership of Fred and George is a disturbing one. And I've not even mentioned what they've done to Ron and Percy. Juli: Destruction? What animal did they kill at age 7? As I remember they turned Ron's teddy into a spider. Which classmate they tried to kill? Montasgue (sp?), they didn't try to kill him, they just shoved him into a cabinet, and it was an act of self-defense. What have they done to Ron? and to Percy? They've made a few jokes on them, so what, my brother used to play pranks on me all the time, and I don't hold it against him. >>As to Molly's relationship with Arthur, their marriage doesn't seem all that great, IMO. (It answered a lot of questions for me when Ginny implied that Arther and Molly rushed their marriage.) Arthur works all the time. And when he's home he's tinkering in his shed (working with nasty muggle things, completely against Molly's wishes). Arthur isn't a horrible father and he isn't a bad man, but he's disengaged from his family, and it shows, I think. He should have been around to lay some real disipline down on the twins and to protect Ron and Percy from their attacks. Juli: what's wrong with their relationship? So Molly is the 'boss', she sets the rules, it doesn't seem wrong. Of course he's working all day, he's got a family to support, I would complain if he was letting his kids starve! He plays with muggle things, it's a healthy hobby. He disciplines Fred and George, but their personality is like that he can't change it, they are pranksters, that's who they are. >>As far as managing so many children on such a tight budget, I do think Molly does a good job there. She's a wonderful cook and apparently a decent seamstress (except where Ron is concerned). I did cringe when she brought her family (and Harry!) right into their empty bank vault. It's probably a personal thing, but in our family parents *never* talked about finances in front of the children. Juli: Why is it wrong to let the kids know there isn't a lot of money? My family talked about finances whenever it was needed, granted there really was never any lack, but still, sometimes vacations were postponed or something, and we all knew the reason. >>Honestly, I doubt JKR is trying to make Molly ESE, or even completely cruel. But I do think, with her wicked sense of human foibles she gave Molly flaws that just happened to be the ones that grate on me the most. Juli: OMG, are you sirious? ESE!Molly? NO WAY. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mariabronte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 00:37:09 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:37:09 -0000 Subject: In defense of the Snape apologists :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136319 Vivian: > Mari I'm not sure what you are saying here? Are you saying that > Snape knew that Quirrell had Voldemort sticking out of his > head? If Snape is on DD's side why would he keep this > information to himself? Mari again: Nope :-) I'm pretty sure Snape didn't know. My points were simply these: 1) Snape says in HBP that he couldn't harm Harry without arousing suspicion while he was at Hogwarts. 2) It was not necessary, however, for him to protect Harry, and he does not say that it was. 3) He protects Harry in PS/SS *in spite* of the fact that there is *no* indication that Dumbledore has asked him to do so or that he has any other obligation to do so. That was all I was trying to say. My argument wasn't relying on anything to do with the Stone/Quirrell/Voldemort at all. hope this helps. Mari :-) From joj at rochester.rr.com Thu Aug 4 00:38:13 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:38:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136320 Lynn wrote: A big point of the scene wasn't Ginny or even the Kiss, it was how Ron would react to the ship. Joj writes: So, Jo has been building this romance between the hero and his perfect equal partner, who's been in love with him for 5 years, and the point of their first kiss scene is Ron's reaction? And that's ok with you? Fran wrote: I can kinda see the need to have "experience" in order to fill in the gaps; however, I don't think it's necessary for readers to have had a teenage romance in order to understand Harry and Ginny. ... when I read the scene where Harry comes back from detention and sees Ginny--and just kisses her because she had that "blazing" look in her eyes/on her face, it worked for me. Not because as a teenager, I had a romance like that; nor because I've kissed anyone like that upon seeing a particular "blazing" look on their face (not that I'd be against it; I just haven't). Heck, I can't say any of my relationships have panned out so well that I could relate it to any of the relationships in the books--maybe I'm gifted and have a vivid imagination. Joj: I married my highschool sweetheart, but I cannot picture or feel or care about H/G's relationship in any way. I doesn't grate on me like R/H"s, it's just a big nothing. And what exactly is this blazing look supposed to look like? phoenixgod2000 wrote: I leave with this thought: The title of the current anti-H/G thread at fictionalley is called 'Even George Lucas is laughing at you'. Pretty much says it all. Joj: Bwahaha!! I'm definitely going to go read that!! From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 00:46:45 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:46:45 -0000 Subject: Ginny imagery (and fic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136321 > I'm rereading scenes (from the first 5 HP books) and I've noticed > that Ginny is always described in feline-like/sensual ways. Since > almost everything is seen from Harry's point of view, I guess he > always, at least unconsciously, perceived Ginny as a sensual person. > Apparently Harry likes the sexy-type. > > I don't have much to add except that I was looking for a Harry/Ginny > picture today for my blog and I came across my first fanfic site. > Two hours later my face is still "red" from the Harry/Ginny (tryst) > fanfic I read. > > When did I turn into such a prude. Oh God, I'm my mother! > > Vivian Antosha-- Well, I hope it wasn't mine. :blush: Don't be embarrassed. Fic comes in all speeds for all tastes. Trust me--I'm fairly broadminded, but there are sites and fics that go WAY past my acceptance level. Fandom is a wonderful thing. In any case, they're supposed to let you know if there's anything above a for-the-whole-family level. As for the feline imagery attached to Ginny... Well, there've been two schools of thought about that--not mutually exclusive. One was that she would become an animagus. The other was the school that felt that Harry clearly NOTICED Ginny. It's one thing to notice the features of someone of the opposite sex, but another to notice their quality of movement. From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 01:17:30 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:17:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny/Harry, Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136322 Ali said: Like Fran said, real life experiences don't help in liking or disliking the H/G ship. I think it's just whether or not you accept JKR's word as truth. For me, I accept *no* author's worth as truth without proof, and JKR gave *me* zero proof that the H/G relationship had anymore depth than any fairy tale princess and her knight/prince. Now me (again): I agree with this Ali (surprise surprise). In fact, I'm more than a little annoyed at what seems to be a very egotistical way for an author to view her work and deal with her fanbase. Yes, she is the ultimate creator, but why should I as a reader automatically tow her line? Don't I have a right to *see* what she is referring to in canon or even see something entirely different without being told to go back and reread? (I'm a fairly careful reader and if I didn't see it the first time or the tenth, then one more read won't do it). Why should I accept plot holes, flat characterisations and bad subplot development simply because the author said so? Why should I accept skewiff characters and OOC heroes? What is my motivation to see Ginny as the *perfect* girl for Harry when I haven't seen it in canon? If she has to explain herself in interviews for more than a quarter of her fanbase to *get it* then surely that means she hasn't done the job. I also get a very keen sense of not being lucky enough to be part of the *in group* that *got* it or can empathise on some level with the H/G relationship or *wanted* it as an outcome. And unfortunately, those of us who saw something else in canon seemingly simply have to suck it in, without even being given the right to feel *sold* on her authorial decisions as readers. And again I ask, why? If you're lucky enough to be part of the crowd who could accept the anvils and the contradictory subtextual stream they were floating on, then you are reading the books correctly according to JKR (which strikes me, again, as a tad egotistical). But what happens if you were one of those who couldn't get passed the fact that those anvils weren't sinking? Sienna *Who thinks she's almost exhausted herself on this subject and might have a cup of tea and a nice lie down* From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 01:19:37 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:19:37 -0000 Subject: An H/G/G Love Triangle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136323 With all the talk about Harry and Ginny's relationship, I've suddenly remembered something that occured to me while reading HBP. If Harry does go to Bill's and Fleur's wedding, a sort of "love triangle" might definitely ensue between himself, Ginny, and Gabrielle. Though I'm not expecting it to be of great importance, or anything near it, but it could be interesting to see how it works out. I'm only suggesting this because Fleur has already mentioned Gabrielle's sortof fascination with Harry. I see it more as a comedy, and this might be the first time we see Ginny's jealous side. Rizza From nawyecka at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 23:21:41 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050803232141.84317.qmail@web60423.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136324 > Del replies: > No, she can't. But that's precisely why I have a > problem with her > *expecting* that all her readers will be able to > fill in the blanks in > the H/G romance. Snip > > But Harry and Ginny are major characters, and their > romance is a major > event in the hero's life. So the fact that JKR > didn't take any measure > to ensure that a vast majority of her readers would > understand their > romance and relate to it seems like a major overlook > to me. Larry replies: As a careful author, it would be unlikely for JKR to commit such a "major overlook" for such an important part of Harry's life. Even the infatuation with Cho is explored; feelings are shared, at least by Cho, there are conversations, even the fiasco of that infamous date. So why is so much left unsaid in the H/G ship? Throughout the series JKR has given us some information directly, through description or conversation, and some information indirectly through clues, hints, or various other subtle means. Along these lines, I like to think that JKR is drawing a distinction between the shallow, transitory nature of the Ron/Lavender ship, and the deeper, richer and ultimately more lasting H/G ship. Keeping in mind the inherent limitation that what we know is from Harry's POV, consider as an example P. 410 Am. Ed., where Lavender attempts to corner Harry into "lots of in depth chats with him about ron's feelings,...". The implication here seems to me is that Lavender had been, and would like to now engage poor Ron in endless conversations about the state of their relationship. My feeling is that JKR believes this to be a sigh of a shallow, short lived and immature infatuation. Compare this to H/G. There are no insecurities, hence no need to verbalize the ship, there is absolutely no need to seek reassurance as there would be in a less secure ship. Volumes are spoken in a glance or a touch; the very lack of any relationship blather is JKR's indirect hint, through behavior and not dialogue, of the rightness and permanance of the H/G ship. Larry From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 01:24:03 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:24:03 -0000 Subject: JKR's descriptions... Can you understand them? (Was SHIP: Harry, Ginny,etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136325 > lynn wrote: > "The telling part to me was the hard, blazing look on Ginny's face > before she threw her arms around Harry which gave Harry the okay to > kiss her." > > Del replies: > Hey :-) That "hard, blazing look" does not mean *anything* to me :-) I > still can't figure out what it's supposed to look like or what it's > supposed to convey. **Marcela now: Merging this with other descriptions and branching out from shipping issues. I have to agree with Del here. What the heck do I have to imagine with that description: "hard, blazing look"? (as a matter of fact, I kind of thought Ginny was a Basilisk at one moment! :D) In that precise scene, when Harry and Ginny are finally getting together, why did JKR have to use "hard" to describe Ginny is beyond my understanding. Just to help me out, can anybody please tell me if there's a movie/actress sporting that look *and* in a romantic scene out there? Another one I can't for the life of me figure out -and I'm really looking forward to that part in GoF movie- is Voldemort's "high pitched cold voice"... I've tried many times to reproduce that sound, but alas, all I've been able to come up with is a cross between Bruce Lee's high pitched yells and Robert Plant's singing/screaming, x.x But, they kind of sound cool and/or dorky, nothing close to scary... Marcela From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 00:24:55 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:24:55 -0000 Subject: THE ROOM OF REQUIREMENT IS itself A HORCRUX In-Reply-To: <1167597824.20050803193830@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136326 Dilia Wrote Before: > > And of course, the room of requirement entirely could be the next > > Horcruxe. > > Caro: I don't think that you could turn a room into a Horcrux. That > sounds so odd to me (at least for any room in the school), because if > this was so then Harry would need to destroy a part of Hogwarts and > that sounds a little too odd to me, sorry. But I think that the room > can be used to find out about the location of the other Horcruxes. > Harry would just have to desperately want to know where they are and > then it would show him. > Dilia Wrote Now: I wouldn't call the ?room of requirements? a room. I think it is something more. It is like an object that when you summon it by thought, it works as a port to get you from point X to the point in where you need to be. Keep in mind that the room of requirements doesn't really exist at Hogwarts, that's why Malfoy would disappear in the Maurderers Map. He would be transferred from one place to another, which I do not believe is at Hogwarts. For instance, if it would ?make up? a room that you needed, then in the Maurderers Map, Malfoy would have appeared between the walls. Not with standing, If the case were, that it was actually a room at Hogwarts, it wouldn't have to be destroyed, because to destroy a Horcruxe you do not need to obliterate the item. For example, DD had destroyed the Horcruxe of Salazar?s ring, and the ring, I will jog your memory, was still in tact, and quite normal. In conclusion, one does not need to destroy the object to destroy the Horcrux it carries. Dilia Wrote Before: > > However, we can also infer what Hufflepuff left behind with what we > > know about him so far. Which is: known for his loyalty, Hufflepuff > > was a devoted hard worker. >From this point on, you guys could help > > me conclude what was that Hufflepuff left behind. > > Caro: Well that's a good question. I think some room that is not > hidden but could reveal some special purpose (e.g. shelter for the > students when the school is attacked) or function (don't ask me what > :-) ). Why so? Because the Sorting Hat cites Helga Hufflepuff to take > everyone no matter who they are and how gifted they are. So why > exclude anyone? I see no reason. > BTW: what kind of room would Griffindor have constructed then? > Dilia Wrote Now: Great thinking! I must say! And with that last comment, I could see that you are not so closed at the theory I made about the Horcruxe. And I do hope you come up with and scheme of what it could be, I believe you got something! Caro: >And by the way when and how should he have created the > horcruxed chambers? DD said in book 2 that Riddle left for good and > came back and was completely changed and sunken so deeply into the > dark arts. This leads me to the suggestion that he started creating > horcruxes after leaving Hogwarts. Dilia: Well, I don't remember where it says it, but I do remember that in HBP DD says that LV returned to Hogwarts to ask for the DADA position. And since DD refused, since then, teachers in this area do not last more than a year If he had time to curse that position while being at Hogwarts, he could have stroll through the castle and placed the HORCRUXES that's my guess. Best wishes, always, -Dilia From bugverde at hotmail.com Wed Aug 3 18:28:57 2005 From: bugverde at hotmail.com (kerri) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:28:57 -0000 Subject: Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136327 > Hickengruendler: > > Another reason might be, that now, that Aragog is dead, there is > noone anymore to controll his spawn. If I were living in Hogwarts, I > would be really uneasy about the idea that a group of very large and > out-of-control spiders is living in the forest near the castle. Maybe > the spiders will be another danger in book 7. Kerri: That's a point, but is there going to be anybody at Hogwarts in the last book? I would assume that since the school will most likely be closed, there will not be anyone living there, so the danger of Aragog's spawn running rampant shouldn't be a concern. then again, you never know. Kerri. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 01:35:10 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:35:10 -0000 Subject: An H/G/G Love Triangle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > With all the talk about Harry and Ginny's relationship, I've suddenly > remembered something that occured to me while reading HBP. > > If Harry does go to Bill's and Fleur's wedding, a sort of "love > triangle" might definitely ensue between himself, Ginny, and > Gabrielle. Though I'm not expecting it to be of great importance, or > anything near it, but it could be interesting to see how it works out. > I'm only suggesting this because Fleur has already mentioned > Gabrielle's sortof fascination with Harry. I see it more as a comedy, > and this might be the first time we see Ginny's jealous side. > > Rizza As much as I would love to believe that, I doubt it. I love the few Harry/Gabrielle stories out there but in canon she is just too young. Although a young, immature veela just coming into her powers and deciding that Harry should be 'hers' would be very funny if done right. hmmm, I smell a plot bunny... phoenixgod2000 From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 01:39:28 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:39:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: <20050803232141.84317.qmail@web60423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136329 Larry: Compare this to H/G. There are no insecurities, hence no need to verbalize the ship, there is absolutely no need to seek reassurance as there would be in a less secure ship. Volumes are spoken in a glance or a touch; the very lack of any relationship blather is JKR's indirect hint, through behavior and not dialogue, of the rightness and permanance of the H/G ship. Me: This is an interesting point Larry, but the lesson I've learned from all this (as a mildly chastised H/Hr shipper ;)) is *not* to look beyond the obvious when it comes to romance or to try to decipher clues, hints or attempt to figure out what the author may be saying on my own or look at subtext but rather to merely rely on the superificial reading given me by the *anvil-sized* clues and Rowling's interviews. How then do I know in which direction I need to focus my laser in order to understand the message you mention above? Or is this merely a case of focus it anywhere you like as long as its where the author meant it to be focused? (Maybe I need a companion reader to help me figure out what I'm meant to be seeing ;)) Sienna From empooress at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 01:06:01 2005 From: empooress at gmail.com (Flunky Bananabrain) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:06:01 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136330 Cindy wrote: > Yes, Voldemort transfered powers to Harry. So far they have shown up > in experiencing Voldemort's thoughts & feelings; speaking > parseltongue; the ability to fight the Imperious Curse-- Empooress: I don't think that Harry's ablity to fight the Imperious curse had anything to do with Voldy, his mom and dad were powerful wizards. Some of his ablities must come from them. >The protection that saved his life by Lily's sacrifice will be gone when Harry turns 17. Empooress: No, the protection that Dumbledore invoced with Lily's remaining family (the Dursleys) will end when he turn 17. The protection he got from Lily will still be in place: however, as Voldy used Harry's blood for his "rebirth" this protection may be altered in some way. Remember in the graveyard, he was able to touch Harry after the rebirth. And dumbledore's gleam , I'm almost certain, that Voldy has weaken himself by using Harry's blood (containing all a mother's love) since he has put into himself something which he cannot stand (the reason he was unable to pocess Harry at the MOM) > I just hate > to think that at the end of book 7, the OOTP, Ron, Hermione and Ginny > are all pointing their wands at Harry and Voldemort's final > confrontation, all with tears in their eyes as they have to destroy > Harry the Horcrux and then Voldemort. Once again, I will state that there just is no logical way for Harry to be a horcrux. Empooress From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 01:46:26 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:46:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136331 > Lynn wrote: > A big point of the scene wasn't Ginny or even the Kiss, it was how > Ron would > react to the ship. > > Joj writes: > So, Jo has been building this romance between the hero and his > perfect equal partner, who's been in love with him for 5 years, and > the point of their first kiss scene is Ron's reaction? And that's ok > with you? > > Fran wrote: > I can kinda see the need to have "experience" in order to > fill in the gaps; however, I don't think it's necessary for readers > to have had a teenage romance in order to understand Harry and > Ginny. ... when I read the scene where > Harry comes back from detention and sees Ginny--and just kisses her > because she had that "blazing" look in her eyes/on her face, it > worked for me. Not because as a teenager, I had a romance like > that; nor because I've kissed anyone like that upon seeing a > particular "blazing" look on their face (not that I'd be against it; > I just haven't). Heck, I can't say any of my relationships have > panned out so well that I could relate it to any of the > relationships in the books--maybe I'm gifted and have a vivid > imagination. > > Joj: > I married my highschool sweetheart, but I cannot picture or feel or > care about H/G's relationship in any way. I doesn't grate on me like > R/H"s, it's just a big nothing. > > And what exactly is this blazing look supposed to look like? > > phoenixgod2000 wrote: > I leave with this thought: The title of the current anti-H/G thread > at fictionalley is called 'Even George Lucas is laughing at you'. > Pretty much says it all. > > Joj: > Bwahaha!! I'm definitely going to go read that!! Antosha-- Great. I'm pleased. We've now established that if you didn't pick up on the clues that Harry was interested in Ginny before HBP or (particularly) if you didn't like the development of her character in OotP, then you may not have been satisfied with the Harry/Ginny relationship in the current book. If you DID see it coming, you may have wished there was more on-screen time for the couple, but on the whole you were satisfied. It's been nearly three weeks since the book came out. I think it's time to agree to disagree. Because we do, and this isn't a conversation any more. From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 00:18:52 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Harry /Ginny. Was: Digest Number 6305 In-Reply-To: <1123013063.3356.52337.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050804001852.58456.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136332 Phoenixgod2000 wrote: We waited half the damn book for Harry to make his move on Ginny and she cheats us out of the scene where he finally puts his moves on her? I hate Ginny. I hate the ship Harry/Ginny. But that scene, that walk that we were cheated out of could have been amazing. It could have sold me on their ship completely. It was bad writing that we didn't get to see it. It was cheating and it was more than slightly offensive to me. I don't want to buy books where I have to competely fill in the blanks with my own version of character development. I would be even madder if it was a ship that I actually liked being shortchanged that way. I don't understand how any H/G fan could have been in the least bit satisfied by that overly vague interpretation of what they would be like together. Make the book ten pages longer next time and include a few scenes that make me actually like the girl you're pairing the hero of the story off with. And for the record, there should only be one interpretation of the time Harry and Ginny spent together. That's what I'm paying her for. We should know what happened with them according to canon. Leaving it open to interpretation is, to put it kindly, silly. By that logic the Voldemort Harry confrontation should be done really vaguely too, just so people can wonder if Harry lived or died. Lynda says: I was not waiting for half the book for Harry to make his move on Ginny and them to get together. I was reading the book to read the next to last chapter in the fantasy adventure story that JKR is writing in seven stages. Who he ends up involved with romantically at the end of the story is a very small part of the story. And it seems to me that too many people are treating this like the end of the story. As for the small part of the story that is H/G being left to interpretation, that's fine with me. And as far as canonicity goes in SS Ginny is introduced, and very excited about HP being on the train. Hint #1 that she may be important in future books. In CoS Ginny obviously has a crush on Harry, stands up for him to LM, then gets possessed by Voldie and is quite traumatized to say the least. Nearly dies before the end of the book but is rescued by Harry. Hint #2 that she may be important in the future. In PoA not much is seen of her, probably because she's still recovering from being possessed and almost killed by LV. In GoF Ginny is coming back into her own. She and Hermione have obviously (reading between the lines here) become good friends by this time and Ginny is becoming more vivacious and spunky again. She is still overawed by Harry and we now know that Hermione counsels her to go out with other boys, which she does. Although some have chosen to interpret her going to the Yule ball with Neville as being because she was not attractive, there is nothing to indicate this in the text. Neville just asked her before any other boys did, because she was nice to him. In OotP Ginny is dating other boys and has gotten to the point that she can interact in a more normal manner than before with Harry. She tries out for the Gryffindor quidditch team after her brothers and Harry are kicked off by Umbridge and starts asserting herself more in public. Finally, in HBP, Harry notices her as more than his best friend's little sister. She's not a little kid any more. Does Harry have an attitude that he has to protect her from harm? Yes--Ginny addresses it herself in the "breakup" section of the book. Would it have been nice to see more scenes with the two of them? Yes, but its nothing to cry over. Its not a romance. Lynda From milcg at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 17:13:26 2005 From: milcg at yahoo.com (Mil) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:13:26 -0000 Subject: How will LV be destroyed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136333 Colebiancardi said: > LV is not a mudblood - a mudblood is a wizard/witch who has muggles > for both parents. LV's mum was a witch, the father was a muggle. He > is half-blood, like Snape. MIL: *grins, and gives a little nervous, guilty giggle at her such obvios mistake* Definitly right, LV is *not* a mudblood, he is a half-blood... but still, how many of his DE know this bit of fact??... Bellatrix sure didn't... I believe they all assume LV is a pure-blood, hence some hiding their own bit of half-blood... or does everyone know Snape, isn't pure-blood as well?? (I need a bit of help here).... The point is, I believe the down-fall of LV will not be his death (at least not caused by Harry himself, or any of the "others" for that matter)... I think LV will be *reduced* to be a, well, if not a muggle (because *technically* that's not possible... maybe some kind of squib), he will be forced to live as one, with every bit of human weaknesses this may convey on him, that yes, will eventualy lead to his death, but not before enduring a life of *human weakness*... Remember what he said about his mother?... that she preferred to die, to give in to such a human weakness, or something of the matter (I don't have my book at hand, so I don't know the exact words he said... help?).... Again, wouldn't *THAT* be a much worse thing than just killing him?... wouldn't that destroy his own *spirit* so much more effectivly?... wouldn't that be the ultimatly worse thing that could happen to him?... To die, not in the midst of a wizard battle, but to for him to realize he will die as any other man, as any *common* (remember how he felt about his name "Tom"?) human being would, to die at the midst of his own body's weaknesses... I think that would make his "down-fall" so much painful for him... JMO, of course. MIL- Hoping this post doesn't sound too redundant... since, I'm posting this as fast as I can... running out of time to type in the RL reports she needs to present to her very RL boss... From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:17:43 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:17:43 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136334 > Cindy wrote: > > > >The protection that saved his life by Lily's sacrifice will be gone > when Harry turns 17. > > > Empooress: > No, the protection that Dumbledore invoced with Lily's > remaining > family (the Dursleys) will end when he turn 17. The protection he got > from Lily will still be in place: however, as Voldy used Harry's > blood > for his "rebirth" this protection may be altered in some way. > Remember in the graveyard, he was able to touch Harry after the > rebirth. And dumbledore's gleam , I'm almost certain, that Voldy > has > weaken himself by using Harry's blood (containing all a mother's > love) > since he has put into himself something which he cannot stand (the > reason he was unable to pocess Harry at the MOM) > Now Cindy again: I think I understand what you are saying about Lily's protection...I'm just not sure where to find that it continues after Harry is 17. Interesting idea about Voldemort weakening himself...do you think it will manifest itself as a conscience? From ongj87 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:05:00 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:05:00 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136335 > John K: > I could see Voldemort thinking this way, except... his actions made > it clear that he wasn't. If he wanted to let Lily live, why did he > kill her? If he wanted Harry to be his heir, why did he attack him? Voldemort had to let Lily live because Lily wouldn't stand just standing by while letting Harry be turned into a horcrux. She was gonna stop Voldemort or die trying. So Voldemort had to get her out of the way, despite the fact the it wasn't really what he wanted. He idealized having an item from each of the founders, but of course he couldn't get that. Sometimes even the Dark Lord can't get what he wants. But oh well, he's good at compromising. I don't think he ever really intended to kill Harry that fateful night. It might have been interpreted as such by everyone who didn't know otherwise. I think Dumbledore, James, and Lily might have been the only ones to know Voldemort's true intentions. As for why Voldemort continually tries to kill Harry, although I am not certain, I have a theory: In the fifth book, Dumbledore used a little silver instrument that produced smoke in chapter 22. As he was reading the smoke tendrils, he murmured, "But in essence divided?" I believe that when Voldemort set out to make Harry one of his horcuxes, he believed that the portion of his soul he was instilling into Harry would merge with Harry. But what Dumbledore gathered from the smoke tendrils is that the soul piece in Harry is divided from Harry's soul. And we all know that Harry, though he has his similarities, is very different at heart from Voldemort (as Dumbledore has pointed out a million and one times, as Harry has the ability 'to love'). And so I think Voldemort has been trying to kill Harry with the intention of recovering the horcrux in Harry. I don't know if this is possible, but it doesn't seem to unfeasible to me. > John K: > Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow, because of the prophecy, to kill > Harry. It doesn't make sense for him to store his soul in Harry for > safekeeping, then to promptly kill him. And the books are pretty > clear that Voldemort did try to kill Harry. I would be pretty > alarmed if JKR said "ha ha! I know I told you repeatedly that the > failed curse was Avada Kedavra, but it wasn't!" I don't see it. True, I think because of the prophecy he was driven to pay a visit to Godric's Hollow. But as I said before, it was not to kill Harry. I think Voldemort did his research on the two children that qualified to be his arch rival in the prophecy (Harry and Neville) and found a very long line of wizards behind each of them. I think, putting the rivalry of Slytherin and Gryffindor together with the prophecy together, he concluded that the one to be his equal and rival would obviously be the heir to Gryffindor. I think he either confirmed or at least thought that Harry was the one (since he does come from Godric's Hollow), and went after him. As the prophecy said, it was said that this child would have the power to vanquish the dark lord. By making this child one of his own at birth, he would have: 1. Ended the Gryffindor line, and won a point for Slytherin in the process. 2. Earned himself an heir. 3. Gotten rid of his rival 4. Gained a powerful weapon, one who had the power to vanquish himself and yet was completely under his control. As Dumbledore said, Nagini is very much under the control of Voldemort because she is one of his horcruxes. > Besides, we know the last chapter, already written, summarizes the > future lives of the characters. Why write such a thing in a book > about Harry Potter if he dies? You and I may be one of few people who think Harry won't die. I wholly agree that Harry will not die. I think it is perfectly possible that if he does have a horcrux in him, he can remove it without killing himself. And I think Dumbledore has planned this, the clues possibly in that mysterious pensieve of his. Happy to debate this further with you and anyone else. ongj87 From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:34:20 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:34:20 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: ...edited... > Lucius Malfoy, father of Draco Malfoy. Lucius bullies and lectures Draco. Lucius himself is a DE. Draco is also cruel and vicious and a bully. Draco is, however, loved by his mother Juli: I think Lucius does care about Draco, he's teaching him to be like him, he believes on what he does and he wants his son to follow his footsteps, in some twisted way he's a good father. > Bartemius Crouch, Sr., father to Barty Crouch, Jr. Father is rigid, overcontrolling, fanatic who does great injustice to many, including Sirius Black who he sends to Azkaban without a trial, and his own son. Juli: What injustice did he make to his son? 1) He had a trial, 2)He was declared guilty by the juror, 3) he WAS guilty, 4)Barty Sr actually got him out of jail, kept him locked and under imperius, but he was out, he was away from the dementores. I snipped the other "fathers" just because I agree with you. Can't wait to see your essay on mothers. Juli From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:34:17 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:34:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny/Harry, Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" > If you're lucky enough to be part of the crowd who could accept the > anvils and the contradictory subtextual stream they were floating on, > then you are reading the books correctly according to JKR (which > strikes me, again, as a tad egotistical). But what happens if you > were one of those who couldn't get passed the fact that those anvils > weren't sinking? Tonks: First let me say that the "Ships" are of no real interest to me, I read the books for the story of Harry's triumph over LV, good over evil, love over death. (Also as many know I read the books for the Christian symbolism that I have seen in them from the first book and which has caused me to become interested in a work of fiction when I do not normally read fiction. And one of the symbols gave me the idea of H/G from the second book.) Skipping over this let me go on. I am wondering if the reason so many people are upset with the H/G ship is the difference in the way people perceive or take in information. Some are very intuitive and I think that this may even come across when reading a book like this. Small subtle clues register with us in a way that they might not with a more sensing type. That personality type need more concrete, visual, or even auditory clues. In RL these are the people who remember what a person they just met looked liked, what their officemate wore today, and where they parked their car. While the intuitive types are in a Luna sort of fog most of the time, and we rely on our subconscious mind to do the work for us. (For an intutive type the subconscious takes in all the *tiny* little unrelated cues and pops out the answer without the 1+1 sequence.) I just put that out there as a possible reason that some people saw it (H/G) coming and others did not. Nothing to do with the author, but a difference in perception styles of the readers. Of course, one could argue that the author should know that about people and make the book fit all personality types, but she is only human after all, and not a psychologist. She may be an intuitive type herself and not really able to cross over to understand what other types need to see/ hear. So give the lady a break. Tonks_op From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 02:33:55 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:33:55 -0000 Subject: JKR's descriptions... Can you understand them? (Was SHIP: Harry, Ginny,etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "templar1112002" wrote: > > > lynn wrote: > > > "The telling part to me was the hard, blazing look on Ginny's > > > face before she threw her arms around Harry which gave Harry the > > > okay tokiss her." > > > > Del replied: > > Hey :-) That "hard, blazing look" does not mean *anything* to me > > > :-) I still can't figure out what it's supposed to look like or > > what it's supposed to convey. > > > Marcela responded: > I have to agree with Del here. What the heck do I have to imagine > with that description: "hard, blazing look"? (as a matter of fact, I > kind of thought Ginny was a Basilisk at one moment! :D). . . Max: Here's my interpretation - An assured expression full of fiery energy that showed Harry she wanted to kiss him just as much as he wanted to kiss her. A 'hard look' can also convey determination, as in we're going to *finally* kiss and nothing is going to stop us. :) From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:41:33 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:41:33 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's transformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136339 Carol: > ...the diary, which is not a true Horcrux in that it's easily > destroyed, requires interaction with another person, and was > originally intended for another purpose... hg: The diary is a true Horcrux. It's also akin to a Pensieve. Harry's travels into and out of the diary are identical to his travels in and out of the Pensieve. If it were merely a record of Tom's discovery of the Chamber and proof of his being the Heir of Slytherin, it wouldn't have been able to interact with Ginny or Harry, to start putting a little of his soul into her. It's usefulness as a weapon relied on it's ability to interact with the one who had it; he'd be able to instruct or possess that individual (depending on if he/she was willing or not) and eventually take that person's life and make himself anew. I think that aspect makes it ironically dangerous to Voldemort; another one of himself running around would want what he also wants -- to be the only him. > - Jen wrote: It seems like Dumbledore is saying LV's appearance changed due to his quest for immortality which we now know is the Horcruxes. hg: We all seem to be in agreement about this. However, I'll add that I believe his changes conclusively correspond with the Horcruxes: the more Horcruxes, the less he looks like Tom Riddle. The red eyes were our first indicator. Jen: So, we first see a glint of his red eyes when he's > > surveying the treasures at Hepzibah's house. hg: No, the first time was in the Chamber of Secrets. ("There was an odd red gleam in his hungry eyes now." p 313, Amer.) This is Diary Tom, which indicates to me that the Tom who made the diary had indeed made a Horcrux. At Hepzibah Smith's house, where he's about 23-25 (he worked at Borgin and Burke's about 5 years), there's no mistaking the red gleam, and his hair is longer and his face has a sunken look to it. And Jen points out his appearance has changed more drastically in Dumbledore's office (1970? I think Dumbledore became headmaster immediately before Lupin entered Hogwarts as a student = 1970). Finally, the Voldemort who steps out of the cauldron in GoF is more drastic than Dumbledore's office Voldemort. Carol: The fact that Diary!Tom > isn't wearing the ring suggests to me *not* that he's already created > the ring Horcrux but that he hasn't yet killed his family. The only > murder he's committed at this time is Moaning Myrtle, who was killed > on his direction by the basilisk, which is as much his agent as his > weapon. hg: If it weren't for the "odd red gleam," we could speculate that his inquiry to Slughorn wasn't how to make a Horcrux but rather how to make MULTIPLE Horcruxes; and that he made the diary and then later figured out how to make more (as well as allowing for the Riddles' deaths to be "whenever."). But the odd red gleam in CoS as well as evidence from the Slughorn scene (wherein Tom's wearing the ring and he's asking how do you make a Horcrux) says to me, at least, that he was definitely asking how to do it, and shortly thereafter made several. I think the ring came first: Dumbledore says, "It seems that once Voldemort had succeeded in sealing a piece of his soul inside it (the ring), he did not want to wear it anymore." (504, HBP, Amer.) This would address why Diary Tom isn't wearing it and why he already has the odd red gleam. I think he made, in order: the ring, then the diary; then #3; then the locket, possibly the cup (not convinced he used it at all). He would have made 4 or 5 by the time he went to Dumbledore's office (tentatively dated at 1970) and would have made the last two or one by/at Godric's Hollow, 1981. Jen: > > Is it reasonable he learned to make the Horcruxes immediately after that conversation with Slughorn? I'm starting to think not. Where would he find out while still at Hogwarts? Did he learn everything he needed to know that summer right after the murders? If so, it must not be terribly complex. Or he had a mentor. AND Jen: Being picky about the timeline here. At the Slug Club meeting Tom asks if Merrythought is retiring because he hopes to get the DADA job. If it's his sixth year, they would hire someone else before he finished Hogwarts. So I think this meeting was in his seventh year. hg: He had to, of necessity, have outside information. The library was probably already stripped of that info (probably thanks to Dumbledore), if he had to resort to asking Slughorn. I think I have proof that he knew how to get out of Hogwarts -- the crystallized pineapple he routinely gives to Slughorn. If he'd been scouring the castle looking for the Chamber for five years, he certainly could have found the passage to Honeydukes, and so to Hogsmeade. He wouldn't have learned to Apparate yet, not until January 1944, so the info would have been found in Hogsmeade. (I'm in agreement with poster Carol that it's possible he got his information from Grindelwald.) And it HAS to be almost immediately after the conversation with Slughorn, because it was 1943, beginning of his 6th year (Slughorn on p. 496, HBP, Amer.: "Look sharp, Tom, you don't want to be caught out of bed out of hours, and you a prefect..." not Head Boy), before his birthday New Year's Eve/Day (diary is stated to be 16). The question about Merrythought cannot, therefore, indicate seventh year. Jen, to Carol: But I think you, Cindy and Merrylinks are all right that this *must* be what's significant about Grindelwald. Even if the two didn't ever meet directly, it's pretty clear GW was able to form at least one Horcrux before being defeated by Dumbledore. I think that's who DD refers to when he said 'no wizard has ever done more than tear his soul in two' (chap. 23. p. 500) *and* why he adamantly refuses for Horcrux information to be available at Hogwarts. Also, it explains how Dumbledore knew to suspect Voldemort of making Horcruxes, because he's seen it happen before. hg responding: Brilliant. Thanks for more food for thought. hg. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 4 00:42:27 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:42:27 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 - MORE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136340 Allie wrote > Based on JKR's interviews and the books so far, there is a LOT of > ground to cover in book 7... I'm hoping most of them are tied up > and it's a really long book. For starters, she needs to deal with: > ---------- > > Inge adds: > > ** What really happened in Godrics Hollow? > ** Vampires? Gotta be more than Sanguini there. Just a little bite? > ** Use of Metamorphmagus-skill? Otherwise, what a waste... > ** Where's Ollivander? > ** Unopened door at MOM? > ** Percy... will he ever reunite with the Weasley's? Is there any > chance Ron can ever accept Percy back in the family? > ** What was with Grindlewald? > Auria adds: Here's a few more loose ends to add to the list above: ** If the Dementors are joining LV, who is guarding Azkaban, and why haven't the Dementors released any of the Death Eaters from there? **Why was Zonko's joke shop boarded up? **Why was Slughorn brewing the polyjuice potion? Apart from Malfoy, was it used by anyone else? **What will happen to Grawp and the rest of the Giants? **What happened to Aragog's venom collected by Slughorn, and what can it be used for? **What are the significant facts about Dumbledore's background? (JKR hinted that this will be an important part of book 7, but thought I'd add it here anyway). **If Snape is a half-blood, does LV know? If so why has LV accepted Snape as a DE? Phew! It had better be a long book..... Auria. From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:40:22 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:40:22 -0000 Subject: How will LV be destroyed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136341 MIL: > The point is, I believe the down-fall of LV will not be his death > (at least not caused by Harry himself... for him to realize he will die as any other man, as any > *common* (remember how he felt about his name "Tom"?) human being > would, to die at the midst of his own body's weaknesses... I think > that would make his "down-fall" so much painful for him... I have a long-standing personal hypothesis about how Harry will defeat Voldemort, since I doubt simply AK'ing him would have the necessary effect. Using a combination of clever trickery and magic wards, Harry wil trap Voldemort in the history classroom. Binns will lecture about the socio-historical ramifications of flobberworm domestication until the Dark Lord falls into a stupor. Dumbledore, having anticipated this sort of situation, has bequeathed his entire sweet collection to Harry, who will magically force-feed it to an immobile Voldemort until he (i.e., Voldie) goes into insulin shock and dies. At least as close as Trelawney's guess, I'd wager! -hekatesheadband (reading Luna's mind) From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:48:08 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:48:08 -0000 Subject: I the HBP (was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/Alan Rickman 's quote repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > But perhaps Snape wants to make sure that Harry knows that HE knows > about it - the Half-Blood prince reference was to ensure that Snape > KNEW that Harry would understand, without a doubt, that Snape was the > owner & creator of those spells. Whereas if he just said, "it was my > book, you dunderhead"....would Harry really believe him? Harry viewed > "Prince" as his "friend" - to have Snape tell him he knows about the > nickname, well, that kind of drives it home for Harry - It's > teen-Snape who has been mentoring him all year long in potions...it's > teen-Snape who had given Harry his first success in performing a > non-verbal spell. > that has to burn Harry's behind... > > colebiancardi(4th post of the day - ouch) Didn't JKR say that the HBP information was orginally going to come out in COS but she decided to wait and keep it for the sixth book? Wasn't she even planning it for the title? So originally it was planned that Ginny would be influenced by the diary, and Harry would have access to using the Advanced Potions book and learning those spells. (Maybe at that time JKR was going to have it be the second year potions book). I guess my point here is that this info could have been introduced much earlier without giving away anything. I just wonder how significant it is to figuring out anything, well, significant. My apologies for wasting anyone's brain cells if I have faulty info about JKR's original intentions. From drliss at comcast.net Thu Aug 4 01:59:09 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:59:09 -0400 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <1123118488.1450.87674.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20050803214430.018f0ea8@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136343 >Del wrote: > > This definitely shows that the readers' experience accounts for a lot > > in how they understand a romance that is little developed. ><<>> Lissa says: Actually, the funny thing is that this is exactly why Remus/Tonks DIDN'T work for me. Like Del, I've done the begging thing. More than once. And y'know what? It didn't work. At all. In fact, quite the opposite. Any respect the guy might have had for me went right out the window. And that's what makes me cringe about the Remus/Tonks relationship. Now, granted, I'm not trying to get a werewolf to go out with me. But I can't make that hospital scene resonate with my real life experiences, especially since we have NO hints about Remus's feelings. There's no foreshadowing in OotP, and there are places for it. That joint Christmas gift could have been from Remus and Tonks, not Remus and Sirius. When Tonks fell in the Ministry, Remus could have at least looked her direction. Rather, it's Moody that crawls over to revive her- Remus's entire attention is focused on Harry and Sirius. They treat each other as colleagues and I'd certainly believe friends, but not anything special. The only real clue in my mind is he's not married and legal, and so's she. And when JKR spoke about it in the interview, she seemed to be expecting it to be a surprise. There isn't much hint of Remus's feelings towards Tonks in HBP, either, which is why I can't reconcile her begging with his response. Sure, there's him staring into the fire at Christmas. But Remus has incredibly valid reasons to be depressed at that point: he's living in abject poverty, spying on people who despise him for people who despise him slightly less. Sirius is gone, which has to hurt. And finally, he's being forced to live around the man who bit him. Fandom as a whole has pounced on Greyback=child molester almost as quickly as R.A.B.=Regulus Black. Extending the Greyback metaphor, that makes Remus one of his victims... and that's got to be about what it's like- the victim of abuse being forced to live around his unrepentant abuser. Is it any wonder the poor guy is depressed? And when Tonks does come up, Molly corrects Remus as to her whereabouts. If Remus had corrected Molly, I'd've been much more suspicious. But the lack of any feeling or any hint from Remus about Tonks is what makes my reaction go from the grin I got from Fleur's reaction to Bill to cringing and recommending Tonks read "He's Just Not That Into You." I know Remus is a private person, and yes, the books are from Harry's POV, but if the author wants me to believe that Remus loves Tonks, I need to be shown, not told. There are ways to do it, and it doesn't have to be big. Heck, all it took me to buy Fleur and Bill was an interested look from her and a typical little brother wisecrack from the twins. D. said: >At least this shut down the idea that Lupin is gay (and being poorly double oppressed by >the homophobic world) or Sirius and Lupin as lovers were canon. Lissa again: Actually, it doesn't. At least not the second. I mean, Sirius is dead, and it would take a LOT of convincing for me to believe that Remus had a thing for Tonks before Sirius's death, especially given the DoM scene. I suspect it's probably NOT canon (which is too bad, since I found it a far more compelling romance than Tonks/Remus), but there is absolutely nothing in canon to contradict the idea that Remus and Sirius had a more-than-friends relationship. (Even the will doesn't contradict it, given Sirius's obsession with his mistake that orphaned Harry and his desire to make amends.) Lissa From a1batross at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:58:28 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:58:28 -0000 Subject: How will LV be destroyed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hekatesheadband" wrote: > MIL: > > The point is, I believe the down-fall of LV will not be his > death > > (at least not caused by Harry himself... for him to realize he > will die as any other man, as any > > *common* (remember how he felt about his name "Tom"?) human being > > would, to die at the midst of his own body's weaknesses... I think > > that would make his "down-fall" so much painful for him... > I believe that Voldemort will get himself blasted out of his body again, and that Harry will destroy the final horcrux, destroying Voldemort. Details at http://albatross.org/book7.html -Bob Alberti Whose spouse disagrees From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 03:08:27 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:08:27 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > > ** Ron & Hermione (SHIP) > > It's resolved already. They are together at the end of HBP. > Not *really*, not yet, but I agree, it's pretty much resolved (and confirmed in her interview). > > ** Are House Elves going to be important? Are they going to help Harry? > > I think we'll only see Kreacher and Dobby in minor parts as before... I can't picture Hermione leading an army of liberated elves, can you? :-) Oh yes, and what a funny scene it would make!!! > > ** What happened to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia? > > Do we care? It served its purpose (give the owner self confidence and > courage). Do you think so? We saw it over and over and over again in OOP, it was the password for MONTHS! I was sure it was going to amount to something. > ** Does someone get Bellatrix Black? I'd really like to see her > > bite the dust, personally. > > I believe Neville will do it... > That would be awesome. Allie From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 03:35:37 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:35:37 -0000 Subject: Not to sound like the Psychology major that I am, but... In-Reply-To: <1c7.2dba7fca.302212db@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, xtremesk8ergurl2 at a... wrote: > Throughout reading Harry Potter there are a few things I have observed: > I have another one for you. I thought JKR did a very nice job of portraying Riddle/Voldemort as a sociopath. It was creepy! Allie From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 04:13:53 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 04:13:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me (with *footnotes*) (was accepting Del's challenge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136347 Larry: Along these lines, I like to think that JKR is drawing a distinction between the shallow, transitory nature of the Ron/Lavender ship, and the deeper, richer and ultimately more lasting H/G ship. Marianne S. Yes, I have said the same thing as well. We clearly see that Ron, Ginny, and Hermione get in to relationships * that, though they are even typical for many teens, are shallow and clearly not even satisfying for some of the people involved. Ron, Ginny, and Hermione are all unhappy in their relationships, and find it hard to break them off (again typical for many teens). Larry again: Compare this to H/G. There are no insecurities, hence no need to verbalize the ship, there is absolutely no need to seek reassurance as there would be in a less secure ship. Volumes are spoken in a glance or a touch; the very lack of any relationship blather is JKR's indirect hint, through behavior and not dialogue, of the rightness and permanance of the H/G ship. Marianne S. again: Others and I have pointed out these very things, and even the canon we find as examples. What I find it hard to take, though, is that it seems to me that people who anticipated the H/G SHIP, saw signs and grew happily expectant of said SHIP and then saw the H/G relationship as a positive, sweet, and yes... mature (but age appropriate), one are stigmatized by those who did not see it that way. Sure, it is fine to have an opinion, and several people have posted opinions if not manifestos about their negative opinions. It seems that nothing anyone can say can change their minds. I can respect having an opinion... but what I can't take is what seems like people trying to impose their jaded and negative opinions on others. When it comes to reading ANYTHING, one must take into consideration the point of view of the author. JKR (and her editors, perhaps) CHOSE to write the romance this way. It is clear through interviews with JKR that it is her intent that this relationship will have a future. Many of us were satisfied by what we read, especially as it made such a refreshing contrast from Harry's last relationship, not to mention the shallow relationships of his peers. Many of us were "right there" while JKR built up to it... and several were not. Fine. However, I wish people would not be so rancorous towards people who actually _got_ what JKR's point of view was Please consider the fact that we all read the same text... it's only our own interpretation and experience ** and intent that create the subtext that people have written... but for many of us it does seem that we have read this relationship the way JKR seems to have intended (based on her interviews), and many of us are therefore looking forward to see how it develops. I am sorry for people who can't know the happiness of this gratification, but only ask that they please don't spoil it for the rest of us.*** Some have suggested that those of us that are H/G shippers should be mad at JKR for not showing more. Would I have liked to see more? yes! **** Nevertheless, am I happy with what I saw? YES!! For all of the reasons previously stated in other posts, which include my reaction and those of friends and even a student... I agree with JKR that we will see great things from Ginny. I believe Ginny and Harry have started a relationship based on friendship and understanding with that extra bit that's also important -- attraction --.*** I feel Harry has been noticing Ginny more and more for years... and for those who point out that she "had" to go to the ball in GoF with Neville, don't forget that 3rd Years were NOT invited to the ball UNLESS as the date of a 4th - 7th year... Harry and Ginny let go of their "relationship" at the end, but not their feelings. So, as others have suggested, I believe Ginny will play a huge role in the final installment. And hopefully this post will play a small role in ending the vitriol between the pro and con "H/G in HBP" camps. I debated with myself about even posting anything further, but my reaction to what has been posted is going from bemusement to incredulity... Marianne S. * (well,McClaggen is not so much a relationship, but Hermione lies to her fellow 6th year girls that it is. *sigh* Hermione Should Be Smarter Than Trying To Make Ron Jealous, but I can appreciate that "little miss perfect" as Umbridge called her has flaws) ** I myself have had many close male friends where we mutually did not want to date because the right chemistry/attraction just wasn't there. On the other hand, the best relationships I've had in each decade of my life have been with people that I was in a group of friends with for years before dating. *** I can accept that sometimes I see things differently than JKR. I personally won't blame JKR's writing if, for instance, Snape is actually ESE! through and through. Certainly it is within anybody's right to be critical of JKR for not writing the relationship the way *they* would have wanted to see it (which, undoubtedly for some, would have been not at all). However, it is starting to look to me more like sour grapes here, as it is coming out that some of these dissatisfied people were H/Hr shippers... If they did not get the relationship they wanted, why do they have to try and turn people against the relationship that is REAL, that is THERE, that has made Harry HAPPY? ****I have already suggested that some sortof a "Ginny's Diary" to document many of those missing moments from a girl's point of view could a fun idea for a charity book. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Thu Aug 4 04:28:46 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:28:46 -0800 Subject: Coming of Age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136348 Why is it that wizards and witches come of age at 17, rather than at age 18, as muggles do? It would seem that, since wizards and witches tend to live much longer than muggles, they wouldn't really need to come of age any sooner. I know it makes the plotting easier - Harry will be able to be independent and responsible for himself, but I can't see a logical reason for it. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From cmclisa99 at myway.com Wed Aug 3 19:04:20 2005 From: cmclisa99 at myway.com (eowynevenstar215) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:04:20 -0000 Subject: Possible horcrux thought Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136349 Hi This is my first post. I just started reading the books. My dd has read them several times over. Now we are racing each other to the next book. Anyway, I just finished CoS. I don't know if this has been suggested yet. But is it possible that Ginny is a horcrux?? While in the Chamber, Tom says to Harry that he put a little of himself in her. What do you think?? Lisa From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 20:26:26 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:26:26 -0500 Subject: SHIP: Ginny/Harry, Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <1123097499.1583.35219.m22@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123097499.1583.35219.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd050803132661cd00d8@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136350 Del wrote: > Lupin/Tonks: I saw the possibility of that one in OoP, and I was > happy to see it confirmed in HBP. And I simply LOVED the hospital > scene in HBP, because it relates so closely to my own experience. > I KNEW what Tonks was going through, because I have had a very > similar experience. I cry every time I read it, every time I see > Tonks grabbing Lupin and yelling at him "I don't care!", because > this is something that I have done and said! I understand the > Lupin/Tonks dynamics completely, because they are real to me, they > reflect my experience perfectly. > > But I also understand that many other people can't be as touched > by it, because they haven't been through such an experience, or it > didn't affect them as much as it did me. =============================================== Lisa responds: Ohhhhhhhh, I never thought of it that way, but I did have a similar occurrence in my past, perhaps that is why I related to it so well! My "Lupin" held fast to his resolve, however -- and in retrospect, it was a very good thing. But yes, as soon as I read the "I don't care!" exchange, I immediately understood and sympathized with Tonks, and I was shocked that so many didn't see it coming. But perhaps, unless you have that specific perspective, you're not "looking for it," so to speak. Lisa/SassyMommyOfThree From spaighter at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 23:04:28 2005 From: spaighter at yahoo.com (K.C. Spaight) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy Message-ID: <20050803230428.62346.qmail@web33407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136351 Sharkbait wrote: > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. This part, (OotP pg.841) > "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." > Snape was caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that > prophecy. And the part where it says "... and either must die at > the hand of the other for neither can live while the other > survives." Now that has me confused with all the other, neither, > eithers so I think it's 2 others and 1 either? Are you forgeting that the rest of the prophecy states that he will mark him as his equal? It clearly indicates that it is Harry the prophecy is talking about. spaighter From ongj87 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 01:32:41 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:32:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136352 >delwynmarch wrote: > >16.8. "I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting >LV". Happy... Seems like Ginny isn't the most important thing >in Harry's life indeed. >Lynn: > >And when my husband told me, after 9/11, that if asked he would >be volunteering to go into a war zone (he's in the military), it >never occurred to me that I or our daughter weren't the most >important things in life to him. Sometimes in life, there are >things that are just important to do no matter who you have to >leave behind. ongj87: I'd like to add to this by saying that Harry has two choices. He can either stay with Ginny, not go after Voldemort, and let everybody die (including himself and Ginny), or he can go after Voldemort and sacrifice time spent with Ginny, possibly be killed, and save the world... HMMM... Well, I don't know about you, but I think that it would have been utterly ridiculous if Harry had NOT chosen the latter. Maybe it's just me. Also responding to: >Lynn wrote: >"A big point of the scene wasn't Ginny or even the Kiss, it was >how Ron would react to the ship." >Del replies: >Except that we readers already knew that he would approve: he >literally tried to shove Ginny into Harry's arms at the end of >OoP. First of all, the books are written from Harry's point of view, and Harry has a problem catching onto things sometimes. The small reference made by Ron at the end of Oop might not have been enough to make an impression on Harry. And Harry wasn't seeking Ginny at this point so there wouldn't have been a reason for Harry to pick this up. And at any rate, if Harry had picked up on it, that would have ruined the the whole thing now wouldn't it have? The point of Ron's reaction wasn't meant to solve some sort of mystery for us, because we're not as dull-witted as Harry in these emotional matters. Of course we knew that Ron wanted them together. The point was seeing Harry realize this, and getting that warm fuzzy feeling inside that for once (in this tragedy ridden book) everything was A OK. ^^ ongj87 From oppen at mycns.net Thu Aug 4 05:05:49 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:05:49 -0500 Subject: My own hope for Book Seven Message-ID: <00be01c598b2$32510ba0$00570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 136353 After that silly speech to Ginny, I hope that we have a scene at the Burrow running about as follows. Dramatis personae: Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and Luna. They're all sitting around a table. Ron: "He thinks he's going to leave us behind." Hermione: "He believes he has some sort of right to _protect_ us." Ginny: "He thinks we'd just be targets." Luna: "He thinks that except for Ronald, we're just girls and might be _frightened."_ *The four look at each other, Hermione nods to Ron, and they get up in unison. Ron and Hermione each grab one of Harry's arms, while Ginny and Luna each grab a leg. They haul him out of his chair, as he protests:* Harry: "Hey, wait a minute! What are you doing? Where are you taking me?" Ginny: "We think you need to clear out your mind." Luna: "Too many cobwebs spoil the brain, Harry." Ron: "All right, girls---let's go!" *They haul Harry out the door, heedless of his struggles. A loud SPLASH is heard. They come back in. After a few minutes, Harry comes back in, dripping wet* Harry: "Okay, I get the picture. You aren't going to be left out of things. Do I understand you?" Hermione: "You got the point!" Ginny: "Boys are trainable, but they come in two varieties. One, you have to hit with a brick." Luna: "What's the second sort, Ginny?" Ginny: "The second sort needs to be hit with a _big_ brick." *as Luna picks up a loose brick* "Not _literally,_ Luna!" Ron: "So now that you know we're in this fight too, Harry, maybe _WE_ can start brainstorming about how _we_ are going to do this. Right?" Seriously, the whole "Oh, I've got to leave you because of this dangerous mission" schtick would have about any of the women I know furious, particularly if it came from a guy they really cared for. Hopefully, Harry will get his head on straight between now and Book Seven. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 02:31:57 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804023157.12876.qmail@web60415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136354 > Larry: > Compare this to H/G. There are no insecurities, > hence no need to verbalize the ship, there is > absolutely no need to seek reassurance as there > would be in a less secure ship. Volumes are > spoken in a glance or a touch; the very lack of > any relationship blather is JKR's indirect hint, > through behavior and not dialogue, of the rightness > and permanance of the H/G ship. > Sienna wrote: > This is an interesting point Larry, but the lesson > I've learned from all this (as a mildly chastised > H/Hr shipper ;)) is *not* to look beyond the obvious > when it comes to romance or to try to decipher clues, > hints or attempt to figure out what the author may be > saying on my own or look at subtext but rather to > merely rely on the superificial reading given me by > the *anvil-sized* clues and Rowling's interviews. How > then do I know in which direction I need to focus my > laser in order to understand the message you mention > above? Or is this merely a case of focus it anywhere > you like as long as it's where the author meant it to > be focused? Larry: Sienna, try taking my above statement, and ignore my references to JKR's intentions. I think what you'll be left with is a sort of universal declaration that the more secure a ship is, the less need there will be for verbal reassurance. I do believe it is JKR's intention, but of course I can't prove it. I also don't think it matters if it is her intention or not, because like I said, I take it as a given that the safer and more secure one feels, the less reassurance is required. After all, between Harry, Hermione and Ron there were never any protestations of love, loyalty or friendship. They cemented all three as they entered the common room PS, p.179 Am. Ed., with a quiet "thanks" after the adventure with the mountain troll. Furthermore, I can't recall anywhere in canon where they verbalize how they feel about each other. It is a given, a fixed and immutable thing, like the firmness of the Earth; they just know it, thats all. Isn't that the way the deepest relationships are? Larry From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 4 05:10:08 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:10:08 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" > wrote: > ...edited... > > > Lucius Malfoy, father of Draco Malfoy. Lucius bullies and lectures > Draco. Lucius himself is a DE. Draco is also cruel and vicious and a > bully. Draco is, however, loved by his mother > > Juli: I think Lucius does care about Draco, he's teaching him to be > like him, he believes on what he does and he wants his son to follow > his footsteps, in some twisted way he's a good father. > > > Bartemius Crouch, Sr., father to Barty Crouch, Jr. Father is > rigid, overcontrolling, fanatic who does great injustice to many, > including Sirius Black who he sends to Azkaban without a trial, and > his own son. > > Juli: What injustice did he make to his son? 1) He had a trial, 2) He > was declared guilty by the juror, 3) he WAS guilty, 4)Barty Sr > actually got him out of jail, kept him locked and under imperius, > but he was out, he was away from the dementores. > > I snipped the other "fathers" just because I agree with you. Can't > wait to see your essay on mothers. > > Juli Good point, Juli, but I would suggest that Barty Senior ignored his son while he was growing up, and sacrificed him to his own ambition to become Minister for Magic..... Susan From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Thu Aug 4 05:11:03 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:11:03 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: <20050803230428.62346.qmail@web33407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "K.C. Spaight" wrote: > Sharkbait wrote: > > I think Snape is part of the prophecy. This part, (OotP pg.841) > > "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches..." > > Snape was caught outside the door when Trelawny was making that > > prophecy. And the part where it says "... and either must die at > > the hand of the other for neither can live while the other > > survives." Now that has me confused with all the other, neither, > > eithers so I think it's 2 others and 1 either? > > > Are you forgeting that the rest of the prophecy states that he will mark him as his equal? It clearly indicates that it is Harry the prophecy is talking about. > > spaighter I usually lurk about here, but thought I'd jump in on this one. It also struck me to try and apply the prophecy to Snape as he literally *approached* when this prophecy was being made. Still, I think the prophecy probably does refer to Harry (DD, and LV think so). The problem is, in literature prophecies are often not straightforward and can be interpreted many ways. Certainly, LV marked Harry, and transferred some of his powers, etc to him, but does marking one as an equal imply a conscious decision that the person being marked is one's equal? I don't think LV sees anyone as being an equal -- he marks his Death Eaters, but their marks are of servants, not equals. If he had succesfully killed Harry, would he have then gone after Neville? Might he mark someone as his equal who killed the only wizard he ever feared ? The other problems with applying the prophecy to Snape are that the prophecy specifies "Born to those who have thrice defied him, Born as the seventh month dies". We don't know much about Snape's parents other than that his father was a Muggle and his mother, Eileen Prince, was a witch who was likely at Hogwarts at the same time as Tom Riddle. Did she know him, and could she have defied him three times? The next part seems to definitely indicate someone who is to be born at the end of July, as both Harry and Neville were. However, the word "dies" in this line is not literal -- in means as the month ends. If the word "born" here is also not literal, it could indicate that the One referred to in the prophecy is (re)born as someone who would/could vanquish the Dark Lord at the end of July. This could then apply if Snape found out then who LV was targeting when Harry was born and turned spy for Dumbledore at that time, though this is a stretch (note that I don't favor a ESE!Snape theory, though admit it is possible). One more problem with applying the prophecy to Snape is that in OOTP, only the one to whom the prophecy applies can take the prophecy from the shelf -- and Harry is able to take it. Can only the people whose names are actually on the prophecies remove them, or the people to whom a prophecy actually applies? Suppose a mistake was made in interpretation and the wrong person had their name put on a prophecy when it actually applied to someone else. In that case, who would be able to remove it? Cheryl (who is thinking way too much about this book and cannot wait two more years! Waaaaah!) From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 03:35:07 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:35:07 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136357 > Sienna wrote: > This is an interesting point Larry, but the lesson I've learned > from all this (as a mildly chastised H/Hr shipper ;)) is *not* > to look beyond the obvious when it comes to romance or to try to > decipher clues, hints or attempt to figure out what the author > may be saying on my own or look at subtext but rather to merely > rely on the superificial reading given me by the *anvil-sized* > clues and Rowling's interviews. Casmir: The fact that the two ARE in a relationship, and there IS a "lack of relationship blather," that is the *anvil sized* clue. It's when you look for reasons (clues, hints, etc.) when there isn't the FACT first that's mislead people in the past. From viqui2 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 03:38:34 2005 From: viqui2 at aol.com (viquid666) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:38:34 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136358 > > Fran wrote: > > I can kinda see the need to have "experience" in order to > > fill in the gaps; however, I don't think it's necessary for > > readers to have had a teenage romance in order to understand > > Harry and Ginny. ... when I read the scene where Harry comes > > back from detention and sees Ginny--and just kisses her > > because she had that "blazing" look in her eyes/on her face, > > it worked for me. > Antosha: > If you DID see it coming, you may have wished there was > more on-screen time for the couple, but on the whole you were > satisfied. I felt that the post kiss walk around the lake was taken to be private - H&G walking away from the reader to have 'private time'. It seems as though H&G's relationship was pretty much established through friendship, all they have done is taken is a natural step further. Having much more 'on screen' time could have been too voyeuristic, and could have detracted from the idea that H needed some 'time out' from the LV situation. Also as teenagers get older, they become more secretive - perhaps this is why the ship story is not expanded; H may not have wanted to 'discuss' it. I don't know if this makes sense, but I know what I mean. Viqui From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 03:43:38 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JKR's descriptions... Can you understand them? (Was SHIP: Harry, Ginny,etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804034338.65132.qmail@web33311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136359 Marcela wrote: > What the heck do I have to imagine with that description: > "hard, blazing look"? (as a matter of fact, I kind of > thought Ginny was a Basilisk at one moment! :D) In that > precise scene, when Harry and Ginny are finally getting > together, why did JKR have to use "hard" to describe Ginny > is beyond my understanding. > > Another one I can't for the life of me figure out -and I'm > really looking forward to that part in GoF movie- is > Voldemort's "high pitched cold voice"... Cat wrote: I think this is a case of JKR overwriting to get her point across. She does tend to do that at times-- constantly using adverbs after taglines when it's not necessary. I think I read somewhere where Stephen King said that if she deleted her adverbs the books would be much shorter. Cat From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 03:50:37 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804035037.93738.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136360 "lisa graves" wrote: > Has anyone discussed the wierd and sudden appearances > Tonks makes throughout HBP? She's at the burrow when > Harry gets there, she just happens to find Harry on the > train. Then she just happens to show up outside the > Three Broomsticks when Harry catches Mundungus, and then > she just happens to be on the 7th floor corridor outside > the room or requirement? She said she was there to see DD, > but his office was on the other side of the castle?!?! Cat writes: I noticed this, too, but I thought it was because JKR likes Tonks and since the scene needed another charater to play off of Harry, why not use Tonks. Give her some screen time and show that she'd depressed. Cat From viqui2 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 03:51:08 2005 From: viqui2 at aol.com (viquid666) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:51:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136361 > Larry: > Compare this to H/G. There are no insecurities, hence no need > to verbalize the ship, there is absolutely no need to seek > reassurance as there would be in a less secure ship. Volumes > are spoken in a glance or a touch; the very lack of any > relationship blather is JKR's indirect hint, through behavior > and not dialogue, of the rightness and permanance of the H/G > ship. > > Sienna: > This is an interesting point Larry, but the lesson I've learned > from all this (as a mildly chastised H/Hr shipper ;)) is *not* > to look beyond the obvious when it comes to romance or to try to > decipher clues, hints or attempt to figure out what the author > may be saying on my own or look at subtext but rather to merely > rely on the superificial reading given me by the *anvil-sized* > clues and Rowling's interviews. I agree with Larry - it was what I was trying to say in my last post but was unable to articulate (am getting close to end of night shift!). I also think that as the story is told from Harry's point of view, it is natural for him to want to keep this relationship 'private' from the reader (sorry if this sounds weird - perhaps said nightshift is getting to me...). Viqui who really wants to go to bed. From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Thu Aug 4 05:54:31 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:54:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus (was: Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136362 > Carol wrote: I wonder (in contrast to my previous bitter speculations on Harry or Wormtail using Snape's own spell to kill him) whether Snape's Patronus will tell Harry that Snape is not evil after all. wrote: > And of course JKR would be revealing too much to say what it is. > Again, we assume he has one because it seems to be a necessary part > of being in the order, and I would assume that Dumbledore knows what > it is as well. > > My guess? A phoenix. What if Harry is visited by a mysterious patronus, something he might trust, like a phoenix (or something that was, perhaps, similar to what he finds out was Lily's patronus). The patronus somehow leads him toward/gives him information on finding the remaining horcruxes...later to find out that the person with this patronus was Snape. My guess is also a phoenix, particularly because of that healing incantation he did on Draco that sounded almost like song. Cheryl From djklaugh at comcast.net Thu Aug 4 03:58:43 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:58:43 -0000 Subject: Snape Moratorium In-Reply-To: <20050803052835.60050.qmail@web60315.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136363 Dave wrote: > Numerous members of this group have eloquently posted well- > written opinions about Severus Snape. Those opinions fall > into the following categories: > > > > Our group is being overwhelmed by so many of these articles. > To give everyone time to catch up, can we declare a 30 day > moratorium on any discussion of Severus Snape? Deb writes: Dave, Severus Snape as principle character in the HP saga is, IMO, serving his purpose here as he does in the book... he is living up to his name... Sever - us. He serves to sever us from our complacency about what is the true nature of good and evil, about making snap (lol or *snape*) judgements, about making assumptions. As I read the threads in all their wonderful variety about Snape and who he *really* is or is not, I see people stretching their brains, thinking, reasoning, and learning. People have researched classical literature because of Snape, they have dipped into psychology and psychiatric diagnostics, they have looked into the nature of potion making, education, the impact of abuse on adult psyches... and they have looked into their own experiences and psyches. Snape also acts somewhat like a Rorschach Ink Blot.. since we do not know his true nature... since he and the characterization JKR has so skillfully drawn are so ambiguous... we project on to him all manner of motives and question and interpret his every word and action with gusto. Of course the interpretations are backed carefully by canon.. but canon can be interpreted in so many ways... this is FUN, Dave IMO... Deb - Snape - probably is the opposite of Umbridge who is no Death Eater but is evil, mean, bad and nasty anyway From viqui2 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 04:07:58 2005 From: viqui2 at aol.com (viquid666) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 04:07:58 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, Sirius In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050803214430.018f0ea8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136364 > Lissa says: > There's no foreshadowing in OotP, and there are places for it. > That joint Christmas gift could have been from Remus and Tonks, > not Remus and Sirius. They treat each other as > colleagues and I'd certainly believe friends, but not anything > special. > D. said: > At least this shut down the idea that Lupin is gay (and being > poorly double oppressed by the homophobic world) or Sirius and > Lupin as lovers were canon. > > Lissa again: > Actually, it doesn't. At least not the second. I suspect > it's probably NOT canon (which is too bad, since I found it a > far more compelling romance than Tonks/Remus), but there is > absolutely nothing in canon to contradict the idea that Remus > and Sirius had a more-than-friends relationship. I've just had the maddest, most stupid idea and I have to share it. I read somewhere (can't remember where but it was a MUCH earlier post) that someone had the feeling that Lupin was gay, I also saw a thread titled Lupin/Sirius ship. There has been much comment about Tonks and her changed character, also her changed patronus which I felt was not really touched upon. Well... suppose Sirius is not dead but is hiding as Tonks using polyjuice potion (Tonks having died or drastically incapacitated following MOM scene)? Could this explain the depression (not being to reveal himself to Harry etc)? Could this explain the change of patronus to a large 4 legged animal (granted, this could be a werewolf as much as it could be a dog)? Perhaps, therefore it is Sirius that is in love with Lupin??!? To me it makes as much sense as Tonks and Lupin.... I know that this is probably total pants and is canon-free, but it seemed like an amusing idea. Yes, I probably am going overboard!! Viqui (who tried to be clever re Revenge of the Sith and came up with a conspiracy theory whereby Obi Wan was Darth Vader and Anikin was framed....) From xirene101 at cs.com Thu Aug 4 04:56:28 2005 From: xirene101 at cs.com (xirene101 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:56:28 -0400 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy Message-ID: <63547494.69EA04EE.02AAF381@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136365 spaighter wrote: > Are you forgeting that the rest of the prophecy states that he > will mark him as his equal? It clearly indicates that it is > Harry the prophecy is talking about. Or perhaps the Dark Mark is the mark in question? ~Sue From djklaugh at comcast.net Thu Aug 4 04:54:04 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 04:54:04 -0000 Subject: How will LV be destroyed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136366 Guru wrote: > This all has to end with the total destruction of LV. It's not enough > to disarm LV and put him behind bars, he's too powerful for that and > has too many supporters. It seems clear to me, that LV has to die. > > But how can Harry do it? How can our young hero vanquish his sworn enemy? Deb writes: I think Harry will some how discover that Dementors **love** Stinksap (Mimbulus Mimbletonia)... that it is candy and aphrodesiac to them.. and they can also overdose on it with fatal results. So LV employs Dementors in his fight to destroy Harry but Harry and his "army" (IMO the DAs, the OOP, house elves, giants, centaurs, goblins, etc) contrive to drop Stinksap all over LV and the DEs during the battle. The Dementors enmasse lunge at him, suck out what is left of his soul, do the same to the DEs, go into a feeding frenzy and orgy .... and tragically (NOT) overdose on Stinksap. Thus Harry's soul (and those of his friends) remains intact as he has not directly murdered LV and yet he manages to rid the Wizarding World of this most evil of Wizards. Deb - speaking with tongue pressed firmly into cheek ... but on second thought .... why not? From oiboyz at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 06:14:46 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:14:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore knowing Parseltongue (was: Various theories and a question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136367 EstherS said: > And a question: > 'You understand him, I'm sure Harry?' said Dumbledore quietly (HBP UK HB > p191 The House of Gaunt) so Harry realises they are speaking Parseltongue > but does DD understand? If not who translated for him? If yes then how, > when, why and what is his connection with Slytherin? Now oiboyz: It's possible that Dumbledore doesn't understand; nothing he says afterwards proves that he knew what was being said in Parseltongue. But I'm inclined to believe that he did know what was being said, and didn't need it translated for him. You don't need a connection with Slytherin to know Parseltongue; it's a rare gift but no one ever said that *only* Slytherin and his descendants had it. So Dumbledore could have been born with the gift himself, but I doubt that. I think he understands what's being said for the same reason he can see Harry under the Invisibility Cloak-- he's an incredibly powerful wizard. He might be using Legilimency to read the thoughts of the Parselmouths and get the gist of what they're saying. Or maybe he's got some magic trick to understand any language. Or maybe he studied Parseltongue and learned it the way people normally learn a second language. Come to think of it, doesn't GoF mention something about Dumbledore speaking a lot of languages? He speaks Mermish, at any rate. -oiboyz From djklaugh at comcast.net Thu Aug 4 05:09:46 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:09:46 -0000 Subject: How many Spies? In-Reply-To: <1624563834.20050803190747@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136368 Caro wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I don't know whether this has been posted already: > > In POA when being in the Three Broomsticks shortly before Christmas > Harry, Ron and Hermoine overhear the talk of McGonagall, Hagrid, > Flitwick, Fudge and Madam Rosmerta. It is said there that DD had have > a lot number of spies (so more than one!) giving him information > during the first war (before Harry's parents were killed). > Does anybody have an idea who they are? One of course was Snape (no > matter whether he really was spying for DD or not) but who are the > others? Lupin? And who else? It sounds like up to five. Deb writes: Well one way I think DD gets his information is via his network of Chocolate Frog Cards... DD says when they threaten to take away his Order of Merln that he just hopes they don't take him off the Chocolate Frog Cards - that reads like he is being humorous... I personally think he was quite serious. We know that the past headmasters can move between their pictures where ever those might be... so why not the current headmaster. And it appears that DD is the only contemporary wizard on those cards... others that have been mentioned are historical or mythological or even biblical witches and wizards. So I think DD goes wandering at night dropping in on his CFCs and maybe conversing with other portraits ... or who/what ever he finds. Deb From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 05:53:39 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 05:53:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050803214430.018f0ea8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa Hess wrote: > Lissa: > Like Del, I've done the begging thing. More than once. And y'know what? It didn't work. At all. In fact, quite the opposite. Any respect the guy might have had for me went right out the window. And that's what makes me cringe about the Remus/Tonks relationship. Now, granted, I'm not trying to get a werewolf to go out with me. guz: I had a slightly different interpretation of what was going on in the hospital scene between Lupin and Tonks. I don't believe they were talking about dating. I believe that they already had had a relationship of sorts, and what they were talking about was taking it to the next level: either a more serious relationship, or even marriage. Tonks aleady knows Lupin care for her-- the "begging" is not "please love me". Lissa: >But I can't make that hospital scene resonate with my real life experiences, especially since we have NO hints about Remus's feelings. guz: Up until that point, we don't, that's true. However, up until that point, "What's up with Tonks" is a mystery subplot/ red herring. It is also serving the narrative purpose to drive home the point (emphasized by Harry's problems with Occlumency) that emotional states can greatly affect one's ability to do magic. > There's no foreshadowing in OotP, and there are places for it. guz: This is completely true, and it would have been nice had there been. However, I think OotP was overly long as it was, without adding another subplot about second-level characters. Lissa: > They treat each other as colleagues and I'd certainly believe friends, but not anything special. guz: Yes, in OotP. That changed for me when Hermione explained that Lupin had tried to help Tonks confront her survivor's guilt. I also believe that this is when the Lupin/Tonks "relationship" started-- relationship meaning either a physical one of sorts, or just expressing their mutual feelings for each other. And very soon after that, Lupin backed away. Because when Harry arrives at the Burrow, Tonks is already depressed and already talking to Molly about it (though we don't know what "it" is at the time), and I really can't believe she is this upset because Lupin simply turned her down for a date! Lissa: The only real clue in my mind is he's not married and legal, and > so's she. And when JKR spoke about it in the interview, she seemed to be expecting it to be a surprise. guz: Yes, it was obviously supposed to be a "mystery" subplot. However, there were a few clues: 1. Molly inviting Tonks to dinner, and her refusing after Molly says Lupin will be coming. Tonks also refuses the invitation to Christmas dinner, to be alone instead. 2. Tonks' patronus changing into something Harry thinks resembles a dog. 3. The biggest hint of all, when Molly gives Lupin "an annoyed look" when they are discussing the fact that Tonks refused to come to Christmas dinner. That Harry thinks this has anything to do with Fleur is a deliberate mislead. Lissa: > There isn't much hint of Remus's feelings towards Tonks in HBP, either, which is why I can't reconcile her begging with his response. Sure, there's him staring into the fire at Christmas. But Remus has incredibly valid reasons to be depressed at that point: guz: Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right after it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics to Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. Lissa: Is it any wonder the > poor guy is depressed? And when Tonks does come up, Molly corrects Remus as to her whereabouts. If Remus had corrected Molly, I'd've been much more suspicious. guz: And here's where our interpretations differ. For me, this was the explanation of what was going on. And also it implies that Remus knows that Molly knows what is going on, too. Lissa: > But the lack of any feeling or any hint from Remus about Tonks is what makes my reaction go from the grin I got from Fleur's reaction to Bill to cringing and recommending Tonks read "He's Just Not That Into You." I know Remus is a private person, and yes, the books are from Harry's POV, but if the author wants me to believe that Remus loves Tonks, I need to be shown, not told. guz: I think the fact that Lupin and Tonks have discussed it "a million times" and that both Molly and Arthur know what's going on, is a pretty strong indicator that they are talking about much more than dating. People generally do not discuss "a million times" and get advice from a married couple on whether or not they should date. And Lupin's reasons, "too old, too poor, too dangerous," are more reasons why they shouldn't get married, then as to why they shouldn't have a fling. And, in my opinion, if we interpret this hospital scene as "Tonks has been asking Remus out on a date for a YEAR, but she's not his type, and he's too nice/wimpy to tell her that straight out," then that really does make Tonks, Lupin, and Molly all look incredibly pathetic. Lissa: There are ways to do it, and it doesn't have to be big. Heck, all it took me to buy Fleur and Bill was an interested look from her and a typical little brother wisecrack from the twins. guz: I do understand this feeling. But, if you consider (1) that the Tonks subplot was intentionally designed to be a mystery/red herring, and (2) that it's possible that we are supposed to interpret the Lupin/Tonks relationship discussion to be on the topic of marriage as opposed to dating, then would that help sell the relationship to you? guz From ngermany at excite.com Thu Aug 4 04:57:46 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 04:57:46 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136370 There are soo many Molly haters out here that I should have KNOWN that even after all these years of bashing her we're all still game for more. I'll adress you point by point. So, lets dig in, shall we. First off: JKR is quoted as saying that she writes more from a real-life perspective rather than a text book. So we can assume that she isn't using a psychology text to define her characters. Betsy Hp: > Speaking as someone who loaths Molly Weasley and her methods of > mothering, I think her children are a *perfect* example of how > she's *not* a good mother. Her two oldest boys have not only > left home, they left the country. It took a war to bring back > her eldest and he managed to pick out a girl to marry guaranteed > to put Molly's back up. (And a girl who seems well able to stand > up to Molly, so congratulations Bill.) Bill is the wild one. It is his nature to want to be where the action is. Doesn't the fang earing prove it? Bet Egypt is the most dangerous place for curse breaking. Bill and Molly will never be bosom buddies for this reason. Doean't mean that they don't get along. Bill's type will always marry the best that he can (in this case a very beautiful, strong-willed woman). The best because she's hard to acquire and harder to keep. It's the strong will that ticks Molly off more than anything else. I don't know any men who marry to please their mother. Thank heavens!! Charlie seems to get along with Molly. Charlie chose dragons. Is there canon to support that she worries deeply about his safety? As I recall, she really only fusses about Bill and over issues about appearance (earring and hair). Oh, dear, what will the neighbors think. That being said while there are dragons in Britain, there may not have been a position available for Charlie at the time of his graduation in Britain. Keep in mind that the twins moved to Diagon Alley and nothing was mentioned about her frequent visits to them. I think Bill and Charlie wanted adventure and to explore after leaving school (first born usually do) and their choosing to leave had little to do with how far they could get from Molly. Remember, Molly had the twins, Ron and Ginny to look after. In all likelihood she probably had little time for Charlie and Bill during the two months that they were home from school. > Percy has turned his back on his family. Which, considering the > abuse he put up with from his family, was hardly surprising. Yes he did. Poor self-righteous Percy. Life isn't turning out quite as easy for him as it was at Hogwarts. The rules have changed and he no longer has the control that he enjoyed in school. Truthfully, of the Weasely children he is the most spoiled and it shows. Molly did dote on him. Perhaps he's angry with her for not toughening him a bit more. > Ron has *huge* self-esteem issues (illustrated by his quidditch > playing) that come near to crippling him at times. There are seven Weasely children and only one has self-esteem issues. I think the odds have played in Molly's favor on this point. > Ginny is an accomplished liar and has a rather cruel temper when > she's pushed. There is so very much I could say here. She's a fifteen (?) year old teenager. Hormones, breasts, sexual desire...we could go round and round the temper issue for days. Lying to her Mom....my six year old lied to me today about her brussels sprouts. I found the evidence much later when a spoon fell down the garbage disposal. Is six too young to be accomplished? You know, Ginny really should have picked up the dung bombs. She's shown little cunning in not picking them up and yet she's been very sneaky before. She wasn't caught by the twins, THE TWINS, when she'd take their brooms in turn to practice. I wonder why she chose to leave them? Remember that teenage daughters and mothers almost always clash and frequently. > As to Molly's relationship with Arthur, their marriage doesn't > seem all that great, IMO. (Arthur works all the time. > he's disengaged from his family, and it shows, They've been married twenty-plus years. The honeymoon phase ended some time ago. They seem to have a solid friendship and a good working relationship, though. This is the reality of being married to the same someone for that long. The romance lies not in the big things, but in the little things. Right, Molly bubbles? "elizabeththedragonslayer" From ladyljd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 06:15:09 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:15:09 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: <20050803230428.62346.qmail@web33407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136371 spaighter: > Are you forgeting that the rest of the prophecy states that he > will mark him as his equal? It clearly indicates that it is > Harry the prophecy is talking about. What about Snape's dark mark? Surely LV put it on him? I'm intrigued by this theory. Ljd From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 06:42:22 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:42:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: <20050804023157.12876.qmail@web60415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136372 Larry: > > Sienna, try taking my above statement, and ignore my > references to JKR's intentions. I think what you'll be > left with is a sort of universal declaration that the > more secure a ship is, the less need there will be for > verbal reassurance. > > I do believe it is JKR's intention, but of course I > can't prove it. I also don't think it matters if it is > her intention or not, because like I said, I take it > as a given that the safer and more secure one feels, > the less reassurance is required. > > After all, between Harry, Hermione and Ron there were > never any protestations of love, loyalty or > friendship. They cemented all three as they entered > the common room PS, p.179 Am. Ed., with a quiet > "thanks" after the adventure with the mountain troll. > > Furthermore, I can't recall anywhere in canon where > they verbalize how they feel about each other. It is a > given, a fixed and immutable thing, like the firmness > of the Earth; they just know it, thats all. Isn't that > the way the deepest relationships are? Now me: Fair enough, I do take your point and I think that it is valid and I even agree when it comes to real life relationships, but my problem is with the crafting of the plot and not how realistic Harry and Ginny's relationship might be for teenagers their age. At the end of day, I think we *will* have to agree to disagree on the H/G subplot. While I accept other people's reading of the text, it has not been my experience. As an aspiring writer myself, I think there is a lot wrong with the subplot and nothing I've heard here has convinced me otherwise. I continue to think that there are very valid criticisms of the romantic plot developments and Rowling's crafting of her story (as opposed to her literary choices) but I respect other people's right to feel that it was good and to their satisfaction. I'm also just a little conscious that the more we cover old ground, the more entrenched people become in their own positions. I am disappointed that some continue to see it as bashing, ranting or even whinging but c'est la vie. :) Sienna From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 06:45:25 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 06:45:25 -0000 Subject: Coming of Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Lynn Walsh wrote: Laura Walsh: > Why is it that wizards and witches come of age at 17, rather > than at age 18, as muggles do? It would seem that, since > wizards and witches tend to live much longer than muggles, > they wouldn't really need to come of age any sooner. I know > it makes the plotting easier - Harry will be able to be independent > and responsible for himself, but I can't see a logical reason for > it. Geoff: I agree that folk come of age in the UK and US at 18 but, in the case of the UK, that's a fairly recent move - before that, the age was 21. What are the ages of majority in other countries around the world? Has JKR just put that in to (a) make the Wizarding world a bit different again to our world and (b) so that Harry can go off to carry out his mission while he is still in school? From Nanagose at aol.com Thu Aug 4 07:06:22 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:06:22 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136374 >Empooress: >I don't think that Harry's ablity to fight the Imperious curse had >anything to do with Voldy, his mom and dad were powerful wizards. >Some of his ablities must come from them. Christina: Exactly. Harry has shown magical talent before (ie, the Patronus Charm). Also, didn't Voldemort give Harry some additional magical power when he tried to AK him? That's why he can speak Parseltongue and such. >Empooress: >Once again, I will state that there just is no logical way for Harry >to be a horcrux. Christina: I agree with you, 100%. Even if Harry *was* a horcrux, wouldn't Voldemort's incorporation of his (Harry's) blood into his present self reunite that particular piece of his soul with his human (err..."human"?) self? I suppose you could say that that's what could have accounted for DD's gleam (one less horcrux to destroy), although I would think that it would have only made the current Voldemort more powerful and difficult to defeat. Not to mention the fact that Dumbledore would have mentioned any suspicion of this to Harry (I would think). Christina From kjones at telus.net Thu Aug 4 07:11:54 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:11:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: <63547494.69EA04EE.02AAF381@cs.com> References: <63547494.69EA04EE.02AAF381@cs.com> Message-ID: <42F1BFBA.7060403@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136375 xirene101 at cs.com wrote: > spaighter wrote: > > Are you forgeting that the rest of the prophecy states that he > > will mark him as his equal? It clearly indicates that it is > > Harry the prophecy is talking about. > > > Or perhaps the Dark Mark is the mark in question? > > ~Sue Kathy writes: It is my impression from previous posts that the prophesy was in two parts. It starts out "The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord approaches."(present tense) It was suggested that this means Snape who has his ear to the door. The second part is in the future tense and seems to be referring to Harry who has been marked as his equal and will be born as the seventh month dies. I don't think that the Dark Mark on any of the Death Eaters marks them as Voldemort's equal, but once the horcruxes are destroyed either one of them with have the power to defeat him. Considering that JKR said that she worded the prophesy very carefully, it seems a valid theory. Not mine, but will be watching with interest. KJ From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 4 07:12:26 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:12:26 EDT Subject: In defense of Molly Message-ID: <12f.6284d768.302319da@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136376 Now on to mothers...I wish to start with a spirited defense of Molly Weasley, mother to Bill, Charley, Percy, Fred, George, Ron and Ginny. I beg to differ with the many heated criticisms of her parenting on this forum. I believe that the Weasley family is JKR's ideal of a happy family. I personally don't agree with such rigid differentiation of roles, but I do know that it can work well for some couples. In the great tradition of mothers, Molly is fiercely protective of both her biological children -- and her chosen child of the heart -- Harry. She embodies the virtue of nurturance -- as indicated by her cooking, feeding everyone in sight, and her careful remembrance of everyone on holidays. No, she is not perfect. No mother is perfect, and certainly no mother of six can do everything, particularly when her husband is working very hard trying to support the family. She does forget that Ron doesn't like maroon or corn beef (gasp!!!). When Harry sees the Burrow (his second favorite building in the world), he feels the warmth, love and security that Molly and Arthur have created for their children. The Weasleys are the exact opposite of the Dursleys. Molly is strict with her children -- they love her and she loves them. Contrast Dudley, whose every wish is catered to....he's a bully who shows no interest in Vernon or Petunia except to get what he wants from them. Perhaps some people on the list are not old enough to realize that even when their mother annoyed them, she often gave good advice. My mother told me not to walk alone with boys on the beach -- was she being over protective? I thought so at the time. These days mothers might remind their daughters not to drink something handed to them by someone at a party (a la Mad Eye Moody). I rejected my mother's advice, and I'm sure some daughters reject their mothers' advice...yet in all of this advice, there is a grain of truth. It is a dangerous world, and mothers worry about their children. It' a mother's prerogative. Now is Molly OVER-Protective? Well, how would you react if both your brothers had been killed by Lord Voldemort, and your husband had been attacked and almost killed by LV's snake Nagini? She is petrified. Her family clock says that her entire family are in mortal peril.... All who can be are in the Order of the Phoenix, Fred and George are clamoring to join, and Ron has scarcely evaded danger at Hogwarts. Ginny has been possessed by Lord Voldemort. Her son who she thought was doing the best turns out to be overly ambitious and has become alienated from her family. I think she has very good reasons to try to protect her children. And you know, raising Fred and George (as much as I like them) must have been quite a challenge. I can certainly understand an occasional loss of temper or patience... Molly also embodies unconditional love. She loves her sons even as she roars at them or sends them Howlers. She wants them to be successful and respectable...wants Bill to cut his hair, wants Fred and George to buckle down, study and join the Ministry for Magic..... She loves Percy and tries to reconcile even though Percy is a prat (imho). At first, she doesn't like Fleur, but changes her mind when it becomes clear how devoted Fleur is to Bill. Her children are, on the whole, doing very well. Charley is happy working with dragons, Bill is delighted by being a curse breaker at Gringotts and will be married, Fred and George (I think their virtues and their wonderful resistance efforts under Umbrage more than make up for their faults) are successful business owners, Ron is growing out of his insecurity as the littlest brother to become a prefect, Quidditch keeper, boyfriend to Lavendar, and then Hermione, and is someone DD trusts to keep his and Harry's secrets. Ron is a loyal friend who rejects Percy's effort to enlist him in Harry's betrayal. Ginny is popular, smart, and competent. I hope Percy will come around but not even the best parents can be 100% successful in raising great kids. I wonder how much of the criticism of Molly stems from the popular pastime of blaming the mother for everything..and holding her totally responsible (while holding dads to a much lower standard)..... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 4 07:12:33 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:12:33 EDT Subject: mothers in HP and a correction of my fathers post Message-ID: <212.62443e9.302319e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136377 More on the mothers in HP Merope Riddle, mother to Tom Marvolo Riddle, later styling himself Lord Voldemort. LV searches Hogwarts in vain to find evidence of his father, and finally discovers that his mother is a witch and descended from Salazar Slytherin. Merope names him after his father and grandfathers, but LV rejects them all, as they have rejected Merope. According to DD, Merope probably used a love potion to ensnare Tom Riddle, father of Voldemort (although it could have been the Imperius Curse). Merope has been verbally, emotionally and physically abused by her father, and probably by her brother. She yearns hopelessly after the handsome Tom Riddle. Tom Riddle abandons her WHILE she is pregnant. She is destitute. She is given a pitiful amount of money for the Slytherin artifact. She survives long enough to get to the orphange and give birth to her son. Harry is shocked that she wouldn't use magic to save her and judges her because she "wouldn't even stay alive for her son." DD says she might have renounced the use of magic, but also could have lost her powers due to despair. DD says that Harry should not judge Merope too harshly but also state's Merope never had Lily's courage. I think this is unfair both of Harry and of Dumbledore. Merope had a far, far worse life than Lily Evans Potter, and may have sunk into despair despite her own best efforts. She is a pitiful person, to be pitied. Eileen Prince, mother to Severus Snape. We know that she was President of the Gobstones Club at Hogwarts and is described there as looking cross, sullen with a heavy brown, and a long pallid face. We know that she is a witch, and was mistreated by Tobias, Severus' father. She might have been a person who loved Snape (JKR confirms that Snape was loved by someone, unlike LV).. But we don't know. If Snape turns out to be a true member of the OoP, it might have been due to Eileen's influence, but this is speculation not based on fact. Narcissa Black, mother of Draco Malfoy, spouse to Lucius Malfoy. Well, we now know that Narcissa loves Draco so much that she is willing to defy her sister Bellatrix, undercut Lord Voldemort and beg Severus Snape to help her (it's interesting that she thinks that he might help her -- why?). Narcissa does not embody sweetness and light. She receives Kreacher, and helps engineer the entrapment of Harry. In Madam Malkin's shop, she threatens Harry, says "I expect Potter will be reunited with dear Sirius before I am reunited with Lucius", and refers to Harry, Ron and Hermione as "scum". Mrs. Crouch, mother to Barty Crouch, Jr. Mrs. Crouch shows up at Barty Junior's trial, and sobs as Junior cries "mother!". She convinced Barty Senior to let her substitute for Barty Junior in Azkaban. Clearly, Mrs. Crouch loved her son. But this is clearly a case of vile father having more influence than loving mother. Mrs. Black, mother to Sirius. We meet Mrs. Black who screams and raves at the mudbloods, the muggle borns, the filth and the blood traitors who have invaded #12 Grimmauld Place, obviously a monument to the pure blood bigots of the wizard world. Sirius was desperate to escape both his parents, and took refuge at Hogwarts and with James Potter's parents. She favored Regulus who became a death eater before being killed trying to leave the DEs. It is interesting to note, however, that both of Mrs. Black's sons were killed by Voldemort or his followers, and both opposed LV. It is also interesting that the entire Black family are NOT adherants of LV...in addition to Sirius and Regulus, there is Andromeda and Alphard. Petunia Evans Dursley, mother to Dudley and stepmother to Harry. We first see Petunia in the Philosopher's Stone where she is wrestling Dudley into his high chair, and indulging his every whim. When he whines about not getting more birthday presents than the year before, she placates him by promising him two more gifts. She and Vernon spoil and damage Dudley, leaving him a bully and a sneak. She neglects Harry, doesn't feed him, gives him only Dudley's worn out clothes, makes him wait on the rest of the family, threatens him with physical violence, etc. She resents and dislikes her sister Lily, and begrudes giving Harry even the cupboard under the stairs. JKR says that there is more to Petunia than meets the eye. We will find out more about her in Book 7. By giving Harry room in her house, she has protected him from Lord Voldemort. Dr. Granger, mother of Hermione Granger. Is proud of Hermione's academic accomplishments. Has the distinction of being the only married mother who works outside of the home. Molly Weasley (see separate post). Lily Evans Potter. Lily lays down her life for Harry. We know her only from others. I'm sure she had her faults but we don't know of any yet. She had green eyes that will be significant in Book 7. She was a popular and smart girl who excelled in Potions. She was Head Girl and started dating James when he was Head Boy. She confronts James for bullying Snape but doesn't take any guff from Snape who calls her a mudblood (hardly the stuff for a ship romance between snape and lily). Alice Longbottom, mother of Neville Longbottom, was tortured by Bellatrix Lestrange, and her buddies so that they could find out where Lord Voldemort was. She is insane, and is in St. Mungo's. She and her husband Frank were in the original Order of the Phoenix, and her son looks like her. One of the more heart breaking scenes is in the OoP where she gives Neville a gum wrapper. She and Frank escaped Lord Voldemort three times, and Neville could have been the Chosen One. (I suggest, however, that Neville still could be the chosen one. DD explains clearly to Harry that even without the prophecy HP would have decided to destroy LV. Neville may decide the same thing; he seems to have already decided it about Bellatrix Lestrange). Augusta Longbottom, mother to either Frank or Alice Longbottom, probably Frank. Grandmother to Neville. Probably there is a little controversy about her. She is a formidable woman and obviously intimidates Neville, who at the beginning of the books is chronically timid. She obviously compares Neville to his father. But as Neville blossoms, she becomes more proud, praising him for being with Harry (who she admires) at the MoM in the OoP. Minerva McGonagall assures Neville that she will confront Augusta and tell her to be proud of the grandson she has. Mrs. Diggory, mother to Cedric. A loving mother. Mrs. Lovegood, mother to Luna, a very talented witch who died when Luna was 9 -- Luna still misses her.. Grandmother Potter, mother of James.....we assume is a good woman, takes Sirius in. Grandfather and Grandmother Evans. I left this out of the father's post, but we do know something about Lily's parents. Petunia tells us that they were proud and excited to have a witch in the family. So, although the mothers on the whole stack up better than the fathers on the whole, it's still a mixed bag of moms. Susan McGee SusanGSMcGee at aol.com 707-441-1434 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 4 07:48:24 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:48:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050803214430.018f0ea8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136378 > > > D. said: > > >At least this shut down the idea that Lupin is gay (and being poorly > double oppressed by > >the homophobic world) or Sirius and Lupin as lovers were canon. > > Lissa again: > > Actually, it doesn't. At least not the second. I mean, Sirius is dead, > and it would take a LOT of convincing for me to believe that Remus had a > thing for Tonks before Sirius's death, especially given the DoM scene. I > suspect it's probably NOT canon (which is too bad, since I found it a far > more compelling romance than Tonks/Remus), but there is absolutely nothing > in canon to contradict the idea that Remus and Sirius had a > more-than-friends relationship. (Even the will doesn't contradict it, > given Sirius's obsession with his mistake that orphaned Harry and his > desire to make amends.) > > Lissa D, why is it so great that the Tonks/Lupin affair shuts down the idea that Sirius and Remus might have been lovers or partners? JKR is obviously very much down on bigotry. I would stake a lot that she is not actively homophobic, but given the lack of same gender relationships, I wonder if she sees heterosexual relationships as more of the norm. I wonder if she did see all the speculation about Remus and Sirius and decided to shut it down herself? There were clear hints in the movie (Cuaron talking about Remus as everyone's favorite gay uncle..Snape saying you're quarreling like an old married couple), and JKR said that she had approved all the hints in the movie. Given JKR's wonderful tolerance and acceptance, though, I think it might be was the PUBLISHER (who has banned profanity) who insisted that these speculations be put to rest, and that's why suddenly we get a Tonks/Remus relationship out of the clear blue. There is NO warning that Tonks and Lupin might even be friends, let alone romantic friends, or potential lovers/partners... So I suggest that the publishers were worried that a)they might make a couple of hundred thousand dollars less and that b) there would be a humongous outcry from the religious right....they're already foaming at the mouth at the alleged witchcraft, they would have apoplexy at the idea of two men loving and caring for one another.. Of course, there's no reason not to speculate that Remus and Sirius were lovers/partners, and that now that Remus is grieving he's turned to Tonks who truly loves him...Bisexuality does exist.....but that's probably not in JKR's or more importantly, her publisher's plan. Susan McGee From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Thu Aug 4 09:53:17 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:53:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Petunia Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136379 Have you noticed that DD always calls people that he knows by their first names - Severus, Minnerva, Argus etc. When DD arrived at Privet Drive in HBP, he refers to Vernon as Mr. Dursley, but happily refers to Petunia as.....well, Petunia! DD is an incredibly polite man and would not do this unless he has been personally introduced to Petunia before. Also, Petunia isn't referred to in HBP a great deal, but when she is, her behaviour around DD is described as odd! It certainly seems that at some point Petunia was involved with the wizarding world - knows DD, and knows about Voldemort etc. Any ideas about how this knowledge might be passed to Harry? Personally I think she knows something about Snape! Brothergib From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 4 10:00:40 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 06:00:40 -0400 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) Message-ID: <004d01c598db$5f949540$6ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136380 D said: >>>The last line: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...", if one will be born, the one can't be "approaches" at the same time (remember, its' not worded in a 'it's coming~ from the future' way. And why repeat about CathyD now: When did Snape come over to Dumbledore's side? He knew LV was going to go after the Potters, we don't know when he found this out. Around the time Harry was born, perhaps? Did he then come over to "our side" (born again as a good guy?) and turn spy on LV/DEs for Dumbledore? colebiancardi said: >>Maybe that's the reason why DD trusted Snape so much, because he was one of the two that would have to work together to kill Voldemort. Harry destroys the horcruxes and Snape is the one who will actually kill. Cathy D And why Dumbledore has always insisted Harry call him *Professor* Snape? You may not like him but you do need to respect him you're going to need him in the end, Harry. Christina said: >>What I find interesting is the "power the Dark Lord knows not." Someone before suggested Occlumency, and that got me to thinking- does LV really know how good an Occlumens Snape is? CathyD again: JKR's recent interview said that Snape had loved. That is the power Dumbledore suspects as being the one the Dark Lord knows not. However, I don't suspect LV has any idea how *good* Snape is at Occlumency or he most likely wouldn't be so trusting. spaighter >>Are you forgeting that the rest of the prophecy states that he will mark him as his equal? It clearly indicates that it is Harry the prophecy is talking about. CathyD: No, I don't think *D* is forgetting that. There are a nice bunch of ..... before that second part of the prophecy. While it could indeed mean Harry (the scar), it has been debated on this list that it could also mean Neville (scarred by what happened to his parents), or one of several others. Or, as Sue, pointed out, the marking could be the Dark Mark on Snape's arm! Cheryl said: >>>Suppose a mistake was made in interpretation and the wrong person had their name put on a prophecy when it actually applied to someone else. In that case, who would be able to remove it? CathyD: And there you have it. The Department of Mysteries *re-labelled* the *official record* "after Voldemort's attack on you as a child. It *seemed plain* to the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring." It might become *plain* to the Keeper of the Hall but that doesn't make it so. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 11:11:23 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:11:23 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136381 A lot of my original post has been snipped where I compare Dumbledore to Harry after reading Dumbledore's statement that Harry is more valuable than he so therefore, DD will drink the potion. In all areas, with the exception of speaking parseltongue, Dumbledore lives up to his reputation as being the greatest wizard that ever lived--including a huge capacity to love. DD has more than enough love if that's what it takes to defeat Voldemort. To me, everything we have seen, including Lily's protection, does not give Harry the advantage which would "mark him as his equal" to Voldemort. So what is it? Lily's protection saved Harry's life as a baby, and DD used an ancient spell to use Petunia to protect Harry until he is of age. I don't see any indication that the initial protection is still in force, making Harry somehow invincible to Voldemort. Actually, most of the evidence points to the contrary-- Harry is quite vulnerable to Voldemort, wand or no wand. > >Empooress: > >I don't think that Harry's ablity to fight the Imperious curse had > >anything to do with Voldy, his mom and dad were powerful wizards. > >Some of his ablities must come from them. > > Christina: > > Exactly. Harry has shown magical talent before (ie, the Patronus > Charm). Also, didn't Voldemort give Harry some additional magical > power when he tried to AK him? That's why he can speak Parseltongue > and such. Cindy: No disagreement there, but most of his magical talent hasn't manifested itself in a dramatic enough way to be more valuable than Dumbledore. > > >Empooress: > >Once again, I will state that there just is no logical way for Harry > >to be a horcrux. > > Christina: > > I agree with you, 100%. Even if Harry *was* a horcrux, wouldn't > Voldemort's incorporation of his (Harry's) blood into his present self > reunite that particular piece of his soul with his human > (err..."human"?) self? I suppose you could say that that's what could > have accounted for DD's gleam (one less horcrux to destroy), although > I would think that it would have only made the current Voldemort more > powerful and difficult to defeat. Not to mention the fact that > Dumbledore would have mentioned any suspicion of this to Harry (I > would think). > > Now Cindy again: Even if this is true, and it certainly may well be it sounds plausable enough (I would imagine that the owner/creator of a Horcrux would not have to destroy the "object" in which the Horcurx resides to retrieve back that part of their soul if they so desired or in this case, may have happened unwittingly) but it still leaves us with just what is it that Harry is, possesses or has the ability to do to make him more valuable than Dumbledore in defeating Voldemort? Cindy From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Aug 4 11:36:10 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:36:10 -0000 Subject: CoS & HBP (was I the HBP )(was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136382 Cindy wrote: > Didn't JKR say that the HBP information was orginally going to come > out in COS but she decided to wait and keep it for the sixth book? > Wasn't she even planning it for the title? So originally it was > planned that Ginny would be influenced by the diary, and Harry would > have access to using the Advanced Potions book and learning those > spells. Potioncat: Yes to the quote; no to the connection. I think the link between the two is the Horcrux. There is confusion where she is talking about the book "The Half-Blood Prince" and when she is talking about the story- line of the character the Half-Blood Prince. Here is her quote from her official site: ********************************************************************* http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=56 'The Half-Blood Prince' might be described as a strand of the overall plot. That strand could be used in a whole variety of ways and back in 1997 I considered weaving it into the story of 'Chamber'. It really didn't fit there, though; it was not part of the story of the basilisk and Riddle's diary, and before long I accepted that it would be better to do it justice in book six. I clung to the title for a while, even though all trace of the 'Prince' storyline had disappeared, because I liked it so much (yes, I really like this title!). I re-christened book two 'Chamber of Secrets' when I started the second draft. The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'. ********************************************************************** Now, the question in my mind is why did she consider keeping HBP as her title if Snape's book and nickname were no longer a part of the plot-line? Does that mean there is a connection between Snape's name HBP and Tom Riddle's name LV? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 11:48:46 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:48:46 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050803214430.018f0ea8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136383 Lissa wrote: "Like Del, I've done the begging thing. More than once. And y'know what? It didn't work. At all. In fact, quite the opposite. Any respect the guy might have had for me went right out the window." Del replies: No offense meant, but I am pretty sure we are not talking about the same thing *at all*. I don't see Tonks as begging. I see her as *pleading*. She's not begging Lupin to tear down a natural wall that is between them, she's pleading with him to stop erecting artificial ones. She's pleading with him to stop hurting both of them *for no reason*. Lupin is having a pity party with himself, hurting both himself and Tonks *under false pretences*. He loves Tonks, he knows it, he knows she knows it, and yet he keeps giving stupid reasons why they shouldn't be together. And Tonks is pleading with him to stop doing that. If anyone is begging, it's Lupin. His arguments are ridiculous: he's too old, too poor, too dangerous, Tonks deserves someone young and whole. Those are no arguments to oppose to *love*, and they infantilise Tonks, making her look like she doesn't know what's good for her. It's Lupin who is grasping at straws, not Tonks. Tonks is basically telling Lupin "I love you, you love me, so *please* stop playing that ridiculous game, it *hurts*", and Lupin is answering "I don't wanna leave my pity party, go away". Lissa wrote: "especially since we have NO hints about Remus's feelings." Del replies: Yes we do. The very fact that both Arthur and Molly have been discussing this with Lupin is a sign that Lupin loves Tonks. If he didn't, he would have told so to the Weasleys, and it's Tonks they would be chiding, for acting like an idiot. Instead, they clearly both know that the reason Lupin doesn't want to give in is because he thinks he's not good enough for Tonks (which they rightfully both find ridiculous), not because he doesn't love her. Lissa wrote: "There's no foreshadowing in OotP, and there are places for it." Del replies: Hee :-) That's funny because I felt pretty sure after OoP that Tonks and Lupin had feelings for each other. Lissa wrote: "When Tonks fell in the Ministry, Remus could have at least looked her direction. Rather, it's Moody that crawls over to revive her- Remus's entire attention is focused on Harry and Sirius." Del replies: Hum, I think you're forgetting that Harry is about to *kill himself* by jumping through the Veil, and that Sirius was not just anybody for Remus: he was his last remaining best friend. If it was Ron who had just fallen through the Veil, and Hermione was about to jump through it too, do you really think that Harry would go and check on Ginny instead of holding Hermione back? Lissa wrote: "They treat each other as colleagues and I'd certainly believe friends, but not anything special." Del replies: Funny :-) From the very first time we see them together, I got the feeling that there was something more than friendship between those two. Their little dialogue when Lupin introduces Tonks to Harry made me feel like they had a closer relationship than "just friends". The fact that they both remained on the Knight Bus after dropping the kids in Hogsmeade made me think that they wanted to remain together: Tonks is an Auror, I'm sure she can Apparate, so she could (should?) have accompanied the kids all the way to Hogwarts, and then Apparated back to London. Instead, she let the kids go unprotected, and apparently remained on the Knight Bus - with Lupin, who AFAIK can't Apparate... And in the end, when Moody and some others show up at the train station to talk to Uncle Vernon, Lupin is described as standing next to Tonks. Since my mind was already open to the possibility of a ship between those two, this looked like a reinforcement to me. I'm not saying those are overwhelming clues, of course not :-) I'm just saying that somehow they did trigger the ship button in my mind. And so when we saw a depressed Tonks in HBP talking privately to Molly late at night, I immediately assumed that it had something to do with Lupin, a suspicion that got bigger when Molly invited Tonks to a dinner where she pointedly mentioned that Lupin was going to come. Unfortunately, the stupidest thing happened then: I believed Ginny. I took her word for granted that Molly was only trying to shove Tonks on Bill. And later I believed Hermione, when she said that Tonks was depressed over Sirius. I can't believe I was so stupid :-) Needless to say, I felt like kicking myself in the end :-D And it's too bad really, because there are quite a few hints in HBP, and I would have picked up on them if I hadn't been blinded to them. Christmas, in particular, is full of them. Remus staring into the fire while Celestina is singing her love songs. Molly pointedly asking Remus (and nobody else) if he has spoken to Tonks lately, even though we are not privy to *any* reason why Lupin should know Tonks's whereabouts or plans. Lupin taking his time and giving a very reluctant answer to Harry's technical question about how and why Patronuses can change. All those are signs that something is off. And of course, learning that Lupin is working underground, cannot freely correspond with anyone, and is in quite some danger and anguish (having, as you pointed out, to work in the immediate vicinity of the werewolf who bit him), while at the same time Tonks is depressed... Lissa wrote: "But the lack of any feeling or any hint from Remus about Tonks is what makes my reaction go from the grin I got from Fleur's reaction to Bill to cringing and recommending Tonks read "He's Just Not That Into You."" Del replies: If Lupin was not into Tonks, that's what he would say. He wouldn't say *for the millionth time* that Tonks deserves better than him. If he really wasn't interested in her, you'd think that sometime after the thousandth time, he would simply have started telling her "Look Tonks, I just don't love you that way, OK?". But no, instead it's all that crap about how he's too old, too poor, blah blah, pity party. Lissa wrote: "I know Remus is a private person, and yes, the books are from Harry's POV, but if the author wants me to believe that Remus loves Tonks, I need to be shown, not told." Del replies: Heh heh :-) Do I know that refrain... Lissa wrote: "There are ways to do it, and it doesn't have to be big. Heck, all it took me to buy Fleur and Bill was an interested look from her and a typical little brother wisecrack from the twins." Del replies: What about the fact that Molly keeps mentioning Lupin to Tonks, and Tonks to Lupin? Typical Molly :-) I know that I'm not the only one who picked up on the Lupin/Tonks clues in OoP. I remember posts pre-HBP about how they would end up together because Lupin is the Grey King in Alchemy (did I get that right?) and so he would have a young and vibrant wife, which we agreed would be Tonks. However, and even though I don't have the numbers, I'd bet my Galleons that there were much less Lupin/Tonks shippers than there were Remus/Sirius ones :-) Just goes to show that foreshadowing is not an exact science, which is why I'm a bit sad that JKR was so hard on the H/H shippers. I was always a R/H, both because that's where my instinct took me and because I don't think Hermione would be happy with Harry, but I could see that the H/H shippers had good reasons to believe the way they did. I didn't see things the way they did, but I could understand that many people would. Similarly, I was very happy with the frienship between Sirius and Remus, but I could understand why some people saw more in it. We all read the books differently, because we're all different. Del From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 12:41:30 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:41:30 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136384 Cindy: > A lot of my original post has been snipped where I compare > Dumbledore to Harry after reading Dumbledore's statement that Harry > is more valuable than he so therefore, DD will drink the potion. > To me, everything we have seen, including Lily's protection, does > not give Harry the advantage which would "mark him as his equal" to > Voldemort. So what is it? ...most of the evidence points to the contrary -- Harry is quite vulnerable to Voldemort, wand or no wand... it still leaves > us with just what is it that Harry is, possesses or has the ability > to do to make him more valuable than Dumbledore in defeating > Voldemort? Christina: > > I suppose you could say that that's what > could have accounted for DD's gleam (one less horcrux to destroy), > although > > I would think that it would have only made the current Voldemort > more > > powerful and difficult to defeat. Not to mention the fact that > > Dumbledore would have mentioned any suspicion of this to Harry (I > > would think). hg: Christina, the bit of evidence you are using to counter Cindy's argument makes me think that it could actually be used to defend it. We know the gleam of triumph is extremely important. What if it IS because Dumbledore is realizing that Harry is a Horcrux? Notice that right after the gleam, his expression falls. Dumbledore, beginning with Harry's birth (likely long before) and through Book 4, is arranging all the players into their places in order to destroy Voldemort. But by Book 4 he's also realizing how he loves Harry. (I think if he'd been able to keep a lid on his feelings before, the graveyard story pushed it off.) So in Book 5, he makes the "mistake" of trying to protect Harry by distancing himself from him. In book 6, aware of that mistake, Dumbledore doesn't distance himself anymore, but he also doesn't tell Harry that he suspects he's a Horcrux (if for the moment we assume he does suspect). Seems to me, if Harry is one and if Dumbledore knows it, then Dumbledore has to proceed with his plan as he outlined it from the beginning, regardless of how he loves Harry, and telling Harry he's a Horcrux at this juncture would be a mistake. He'd be saving that bit for later, or want Harry to discover it on his own. We know that Dumbledore hadn't finished with Harry, and he hadn't been forthcoming about everything yet (he never told Harry about Snape being the eavesdropper, for one). Of course, there could be other reasons for Dumbledore to say that Harry's blood is more valuable than his, but this still would not deny the possibility that Harry could be a Horcrux and Dumbledore could suspect as much. hg. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 4 12:43:11 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:43:11 -0000 Subject: Lupin Can't Apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136385 > Del replies: > Funny :-) From the very first time we see them together, I got the > feeling that there was something more than friendship between those > two. Their little dialogue when Lupin introduces Tonks to Harry made > me feel like they had a closer relationship than "just friends". The > fact that they both remained on the Knight Bus after dropping the kids > in Hogsmeade made me think that they wanted to remain together: Tonks > is an Auror, I'm sure she can Apparate, so she could (should?) have > accompanied the kids all the way to Hogwarts, and then Apparated back > to London. Instead, she let the kids go unprotected, and apparently > remained on the Knight Bus - with Lupin, who AFAIK can't Apparate... Marianne: This surprises me - Lupin can't Apparate? Where were we told that? I'm not being snippy here; I really have no recollection that this is the case. From jmkearns at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 12:59:54 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:59:54 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136386 > ongj87: > Voldemort had to let Lily live because Lily wouldn't stand just > standing by while letting Harry be turned into a horcrux. She was > gonna stop Voldemort or die trying. So Voldemort had to get her > out of the way, despite the fact the it wasn't really what he > wanted. John K: Yes, but... there are so many more ways to incapacitate a person than killing them. In the scene in the Astronomy tower, Harry would have protected Dumbledore or died trying, but Dumbledore didn't want him to. So (rather than killing him), he put a full body-bind curse on him. If Voldemort wanted Lily to live for his own purposes, he would have done similarly. It would even have been easier. I also don't see Voldemort wanting Lily to live because even if he did want Harry to be his heir, he wouldn't /want/ Lily raising him. Not only had she proven that she hated Voldemort (and he knew it; she'd defied him three times) but she was muggle-born. She was pretty much the opposite of the mother Voldemort would idealize. > imgj87: > I don't think he ever really intended to kill Harry that fateful > night. It might have been interpreted as such by everyone who > didn't know otherwise. I think Dumbledore, James, and Lily might > have been the only ones to know Voldemort's true intentions. John K: I still think it's been directly called a Killing Curse, including by Dumbledore, way too many times for JKR to pull this on us. It's one thing to make a motivation or an event seem a little strange, or to drop hints in the text that something is not as it seems; but this would be another thing altogether, a plot twist out of the blue. That's not fair to readers, and JKR is a better writer than that, no matter what the H/G shippers say. ;) > ongj87: > But what Dumbledore gathered from the smoke tendrils is that the > soul piece in Harry is divided from Harry's soul. And we all know > that Harry, though he has his similarities, is very different at > heart from Voldemort (as Dumbledore has pointed out a million and > one times, as Harry has the ability 'to love'). John K: I have to admit that this is indeed the most logical explanation I've heard yet for this, though I've been adamately maintaining that Harry cannot be a Horcrux. I just haven't yet heard a satisfactory explanation of /how or why/ Harry could have become a Horcrux. I just don't think Voldemort was trying to do anything but kill him. And if Dumbledore thought he was, wouldn't he have told Harry? After all, the Horcrux explanations seemed designed so that Harry could carry on destroying them if something happened to Dumbledore. That would be an awfully critical piece of information to leave out, no matter how it made Harry feel. Not to mention the fact that Dumbledore has already learned not to withold information from Harry. > ongj87: > I think, > putting the rivalry of Slytherin and Gryffindor together with the > prophecy, he concluded that the one to be his equal and rival > would obviously be the heir to Gryffindor. John K: Makes sense (though I'm unsure why Harry hasn't found out he's Gryffindor's heir by now), but... > ongj87: > By making this child one of his own at birth, he would have: > > 1. Ended the Gryffindor line, and won a point for Slytherin in the > process. John K: I'm not convinced making Harry a Horcrux would end the Gryffindor line; after all, the Gryffindor descendant would still be alive. It would be far more effective to kill him. > 2. Earned himself an heir. Why does he need one? I thought he planned to live forever? > 3. Gotten rid of his rival Again, killing him would be far more effective. > 4. Gained a powerful weapon, one who had the power to vanquish > himself and yet was completely under his control. As Dumbledore > said, Nagini is very much under the control of Voldemort because > she is one of his horcruxes. But it would be an enormous risk to raise to full wizarding maturity a boy with the power to vanquish him, particularly as Voldemort thinks nobody else has that power. It would be a classic evil villain mistake - I'll raise my son to be as powerful as me, of course he will do my bidding (but he doesn't, he ends up killing the father instead). Voldemort doesn't make many of these obvious sorts of mistakes. Besides, he doesn't need Harry as a weapon. He doesn't need anything as a weapon. He's the most powerful wizard on earth. We see throughout the sixth book that Voldemort is really doing quite well for himself, and that's with Harry the weapon on the OTHER side. And by all indications, he was doing quite well during the first war as well, until Harry came along. > ongj87: > You and I may be one of few people who think Harry won't die. I > wholly agree that Harry will not die. I think it is perfectly > possible that if he does have a horcrux in him, he can remove it > without killing himself. John K: I like this idea simply because it explains Dumbledore's little tool. I don't like it because I can't find any other evidence for it. And though, as I said, this is a good explanation for Dumbledore's instrument, that's not enough to go on for me, as there are other potential explanations for the instrument as well - perhaps it was about the snake that bit Arthur? Or about control of Harry's mind? Or to find out whether Voldemort was possessing Harry? All of these would have been much more urgent, and necessitated Dumbledore using the instrument in front of Harry. > ongj87: > And I think Dumbledore has planned this, the clues possibly in > that mysterious pensieve of his. John K: I love the idea that Dumbledore has left clues or information for Harry in the pensieve, whether they're related to the rest of this debate or not. I hadn't thought of it, and it would make for a fantastic scene in the next book. > ongj87: > Happy to debate this further with you and anyone else. John K: Hooray! I love a good friendly debate. :) John K From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 4 12:58:18 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:58:18 -0000 Subject: CoS & HBP (was I the HBP )(was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Cindy wrote: > > Didn't JKR say that the HBP information was orginally going to > > come out in COS but she decided to wait and keep it for the sixth > > book? Wasn't she even planning it for the title? >Potioncat: > Now, the question in my mind is why did she consider keeping HBP as > her title {of Book 2} if Snape's book and nickname were no longer a > part of the plot-line? Does that mean there is a connection between > Snape's name HBP and Tom Riddle's name LV? Jen: Maybe originally HBP referred to Riddle? Then when we met Riddle through the diary, we would automatically assume he's the mysterious HBP and wouldn't connect him to Voldemort. But there would be a big gap if none of the HBP storyline was actually there, nothing to back up the title. There are definitely similarities between Snape and LV. I wonder if Snape knows a little bit about TR's life, that he started out as a half-blood in Slytherin, too? Maybe Snape fashioned himself a nickname and started inventing those spells because he even admired LV, sort of hero worship. If that's true, then the story really needs to have a Snape redeemed, as someone who started down the path like Tom Riddle, but made different choices. You know, it just struck me we were supposed to be very surprised to learn Snape was the Half-Blood Prince; that was the reason for the big, dramatic "It was I who invented them--I the Half-Blood Prince!" Either becuase we're used to spotting clues or it was just obvious in this one, most people caught on to the plot twist around the time Slughorn gave Harry the potion book. It never ocurred to me to suspect Slughorn, Lily or Riddle, though I think we were supposed to!! Not suspecting Snape would make that end moment more dramatic along the lines of discovering Riddle was a younger Voldemort. From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 12:07:49 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:07:49 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: <004d01c598db$5f949540$6ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136388 spaighter >>Are you forgeting that the rest of the prophecy states that he will mark him as his equal? It clearly indicates that it is Harry the prophecy is talking about. CathyD: >>...snip..... the marking could be the Dark Mark on Snape's arm! JMOSES I always thought of the dark mark to be the same as a farmer branding his cows. It is like Voldemort is claiming them. PP has the dark mark too, and I certainly don't think that Voldemort views him as an equal. From 4nerds at eskimo.com Thu Aug 4 07:10:41 2005 From: 4nerds at eskimo.com (jewal1) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:10:41 -0000 Subject: Bezoar and Draught of Living Death Was: Re: Snape's bravery? In-Reply-To: <42DEEDE1.7090104@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136389 > Sherry Gomes wrote: The lesson in the book on bezoars saved Ron's life.< Book one, Potions lesson one, Snape lectured about bezoars to Harry, It just occurred to me what else he lectured about at the same time. The Draught of Living Death.... I wonder if both came into play in this book? Thank you for your post! Jewal From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 13:18:03 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:18:03 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved In-Reply-To: <004d01c598db$5f949540$6ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136390 > CathyD again: > JKR's recent interview said that Snape had loved. That is the > power Dumbledore suspects as being the one the Dark Lord knows > not. Umm, no, it did not. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. This makes perfect sense in Rowling's cosmology. If one has been loved, someone has given that person a precious gift--trust, and the committment of oneself. Love, in Rowling's world, is something that binds people together and motivates the better actions in life. Someone who has been loved and then turns to the anti-love anti-life group of the Death Eaters is committing a sin against another person, who had put part of themself into a bond between the two. Voldemort, never having been loved, is not offending against anyone. Snape, having been loved (at some unknown point), either *had* committed an offense in the past or *is* committing an offense in the present. Or both. Whatever it is, it speaks against Snape not having been a genuine DE at some point in time. After all, if we want a redemption plot (which I am now no longer convinced Rowling is going for with Snape), there has to have been a fall--and to mediate that fall is to take all the BANG out of the upswing. -Nora wonders why it's so hot this early in the morning From drliss at comcast.net Thu Aug 4 14:32:22 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:32:22 +0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks Message-ID: <080420051432.18796.42F226F3000088500000496C22058860149C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136391 Guz: I do understand this feeling. But, if you consider (1) that the Tonks subplot was intentionally designed to be a mystery/red herring, and (2) that it's possible that we are supposed to interpret the Lupin/Tonks relationship discussion to be on the topic of marriage as opposed to dating, then would that help sell the relationship to you? Lissa: Nope. Not at all. Sorry :) The red-herring thing from Tonks's perspective I'm... well, okay with. I can see where her feelings were hinted at, and although I don't like it, I can accept that. What bothers me there is the throwback to the 1950s (her Patronus changing for him really sticks in my craw unless we find out 1.) his changed for her as well, or 2.) he saved her life or the change in Patronus relates to something in addition to simple love.). I'm sorry, but the Tonks we met- and that I really liked- in OotP didn't come across as someone who would pine for a man for almost a year. And the fact it sapped her powers (as hinted at by the unrequited love sapping Merope of hers) REALLY bothers me. All I'm saying is that James Potter better have struggled for a bit there when Lily wouldn't give him the time of day, y'know? It also bothers me because honestly? I didn't really pick up on the fact I was supposed to be fooled by thinking Tonks was Draco's accomplice. I thought something might be going on, but Tonks was on the page so rarely that it didn't really work on me as a red herring- too much else was happening with more major characters. Now, I admit, as much as I vastly prefer Remus with Sirius (where I DID see a lot of canonical hints and a deep friendship that could be more), I pretty much expected that Remus and Tonks might get together if Remus was going to be paired off with anyone. If you want to put him into a relationship with an active character and you don't want a student, someone twice his age, someone married, or a man, you only have one option. And if we'd seen little hints of a developing relationship and the handholding at the end without the hospital scene- THAT I would have bought. It's the hospital scene that throws the entire thing out of whack. I cannot believe from canon that they were to the point they were discussing marriage. As I said, there is absolutely nothing to indicate in OotP that they were more than friends- in fact, quite the reverse with the DoM battle and Lupin's reaction. And while OotP might have been overly long, one single sentence about how Lupin was kneeling by her side or started towards her or at least flicked his eyes to check if she was okay would not have added considerably to the length. (Neither would have switching the joint Christmas present from Remus and Sirius to Remus and Tonks.) And given how torn up he was about Sirius, the fact that he checked on her through his pain would have at least given some idea of his feelings. And sure, he may have gone over after Harry left, but if as readers we're being asked to believe he's in love with her at that point, we needed to see that concern. But because of his utter lack of reaction in the Ministry, I simply cannot believe he cared about her as anything more than a friend until the HBP timeframe. Then in HBP, he tells Harry he's been living underground with the werewolves. There's simply no time for him to be forming any sort of relationship where they're already at the marriage stage. Well, no. I do take that back. We don't know what he does after Christmas, and given that both my own grandparents and my husband's parents got married after 3-6 months of dating, perhaps there's time by other people's standards after Christmas, if he does not go back to the werewolves. (Course, it took me and hubby three years, so again, that Real Life experience ;) ) But although they've had this conversation "a million times", that's a.) obviously an exaggeration, and b.) the subject of the conversation- marriage vs. possible involvement- is not clear. Because of the timing, I would veer more towards possible involvement. As far as Lupin talking her down from survivor's guilt: given what we see of Lupin in OotP, both comforting Molly after she sees her boggart and talking to Molly on Christmas when Percy returns his jumper, this does not stick out at all to me. Lupin is a shoulder to cry on- it's a huge part of his character. guz: Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right after it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics to Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. Lissa: Or those same lyrics can be interpretted as Remus's feelings for Sirius ;) But seriously, Remus doesn't mope during that song. Rather, that's when he snaps out of it and talks to Harry. I need conformation from Remus himself, not from the circumstances. I need proof of interest from Remus. Like I said- it doesn't have to be much. Him correcting Molly instead of the other way around (or even looking guilty or flushed or something) would have helped out. But given the fact that Molly had to correct him on Tonks's whereabouts said to me that Remus didn't really care- he was too wrapped up in his own problems. It does certainly seem that Molly and Arthur (and McGonagall) have known about this. But here's the other thing that really, really, REALLY bugs me about the hospital scene and just makes me not like how the ship was handled in general: Remus has just lost Dumbledore. Even Harry notes that this is the strongest reaction he's ever scene from Remus, and he's distinctly uncomfortable, because he acknowledges that Remus is such a private person. And yes, I do believe Dumbledore's death hit Remus incredibly hard. Whereas when Remus lost Sirius, he was in battle and losing one person, with Dumbledore, he was losing his link to the world. Without Dumbledore, Remus does not have a champion that has power, and given all that Dumbledore has done for Remus.... His grief is completely understandable, and very raw in that scene. Additionally, Remus IS a very private person. To force a conversation about his love life in front of everyone- and then to have everyone say that he's wrong, that he shouldn't feel the way he does, that his reasons aren't valid (more on that in a second), and that he should capitulate and emotionally blackmailing him that Dumbledore would have liked it (I can see where it was probably meant as reassurance, but hey- I admittedly HATE this scene)- all that had to have been intensely humiliating for him. And he was right. It was not the moment for that discussion. I can't help but wonder why, if Tonks loves him like she says she does, she put him through that. And he does have valid reasons for not being willing to start a relationship. The too old thing isn't really one of them- for all that Remus is older, he's not as mature as fandom would like to think. (Really, cross-dressing Snape? The man's inner 12 year old is very much alive, thanks.) The too poor thing I'm in the air about. It shouldn't matter. It speaks well of Tonks that it doesn't matter to her. But it DOES matter to Remus, and if that's something -he- can't get over, I can understand that. And the too dangerous thing? That one he's completely 100% right. Aside from the werewolf thing, Remus is a dead man walking at the end of HBP. Between his fighting at the Tower and Snape's defection, the Death Eaters must know that Remus isn't on their side and has been among the werewolves as a spy. And look at Greyback's methods; he doesn't go after the person who offended him, but the people that person loves. Remus is truly dangerous at this point, and while Tonks can probably take care of herself, he's got a point. Now add to this Remus's greatest flaw: he likes to be liked. This is another thing I just can't reconcile so easily. Remus DOES like to be liked, and he's sold out before to get it. So why why WHY does it take him almost a year to give into Tonks if he's interested? Why does he fight it so hard? Possibly because of the above reasons- like I said, they're extremely valid. Perhaps he wants to protect Tonks. But if he loved her, it would make sense he'd give in much sooner than this. (And maybe he did on some level. My personal theory- which I know JKR's not doing but I like it much better- is that he slept with her not long after Sirius died and then backed away, and it kind of messed with her head.) But there's a line that also really stands out to me, and that's when Remus says he must be grateful. He's talking about Snape making the potion, but I kind of think, given the treatment he endures, Remus must be grateful for anything he recieves. It really kind of makes this relationship very hollow for me- and again, because Tonks begged. She loves him this much, she's willing to sacrifice... and he must be grateful for that. (Especially with everyone telling him that.) It just doesn't all add up to me, and I can't make myself believe that he's madly in love with her. Of course, that doesn't mean I don't accept the relationship as canon. I do. I don't think Tonks is Sirius in disguise, I don't think he told her about his secret relationship with Sirius and that made her feel better and they were holding hands at the funeral for comfort.... I do believe we are meant to take this relationship at face value. Anything else is too complicated for a subplot. I just think it was badly handled and written. It's a small part of HBP and an even smaller part of the Harry Potter plot in general, so it's not like I'm saying that JKR is an evil demon from the pits of Hell or that I don't enjoy the books or anything. I don't even necessarily think her publishers had much to do with it. I suspect that, like the Harry/Hermione shippers, the Remus/Sirius crew saw signs of a deep friendship that COULD be love if authorial intent wasn't involved, and it wasn't necessarily something JKR intended. I also think that, because it IS such a small part of the books, JKR is not that great at writing serious romance. I mean, think about it. Even a lot of Harry/Ginny shippers aren't overly happy at the very glossed-over way the ship was treated. Molly and Arthur obviously love each other, but the tender, mature side of their love directed at each other is rarely shown- instead, we see the sides that play for laughs (like Mollywobbles ;) ). Bill and Fleur... did Bill himself even speak in this book? The focus on the relationship was the friction between Fleur and Molly; the love between Bill and Fleur was the motivator for that friction. She does the humor, the set up, and the teenaged failures extremely well, but actual serious love leaves a lot to be desired in JKR's world and writing. Which is fine... that's why we write fanfic. And that's why I would have preferred- and bought- the more subtle approach to Remus/Tonks rather than the disaster of the hospital scene we were given. The melodrama was what put it over the top and made it completely unbelievable to me. Anyway, to be honest, nothing will ever get me to like how this was handled at all. I might like the ship better in Book 7, when we're over the melodrama and on to the meat of the matter, but even then, the hospital scene will always ring to me as one of JKR's seriously off days. But when I get to take back everything I ever said about Voldemort being a 2-D, Evil Overlord stock villian, it's a small price to pay! Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 14:33:51 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:33:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050803214430.018f0ea8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136392 First of all, while I think Tonks IS being impersonated by someone using Polyjuice Potion, I believe Sirius Black is dead. JKR has said so in no uncertain terms. But it WOULD make an entertaining fanfic! I found the "Too old, too poor, too dangerous" line (and I'm quoting from memory)interesting because it mirrored Lady Caroline Lamb's snipe at her former lover Lord Byron: "Mad, bad and dangerous to know." Byron was, of course, famously bi-sexual. However, I don't think JKR was implying by this that Lupin is bisexual - the phrase probably just rang nicely to her ears. I agree with susanmcgee that the publisher might have applied pressure to shut down the rumours of a homosexual pairing in Harry Potter. I think it is really too bad - for JKR to use her visibility speak out against discrimination based on sexual preference in addition to racial bigotry would have REALLY made a statement to young people. Lynette From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 4 14:48:47 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:48:47 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Life debt Message-ID: <42F22ACF.000008.03800@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 136393 Does any one know or have any idea what happens if a "life debt" is not met or honored? What happens if Peter P. doesn't honor his life debt to Harry? Didn't James death release Snape from his life debt to James? At what point is a life debut funfilled? And, how is a life debt repaid? Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Thu Aug 4 14:53:54 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:53:54 -0000 Subject: CoS & HBP (was I the HBP )(was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136394 > Jen: Maybe Snape fashioned himself a > nickname and started inventing those spells because he even admired > LV, sort of hero worship. I wonder, though, as a Death Eater or Death Eater to be, why Snape would have come up with a nickname obviously pointing out his half- blood status when Slytherin House and LV (even though he is not pureblood, he followers seem to think he is)focus so much on the importance of being pureblood. Even Harry states "If he'd been a budding Death Eater he wouldn't have been boasting about being a 'half-blood,' would he?" However, at the end of the book, when he knows who the HBP is (particularly after witnessing him kill Dumbledore), he disregards this initial impression stating, "-- Lord Voldemort -- Half-Blood Prince -- How could Dumbledore have missed?..." Perhaps the Prince family was Pureblood and Snape, perhaps having been looked down upon by the pureblood Prince family because of his half-blood status and/or mistreated by his Muggle father did invent this name to play up the Prince side of the family instead of his Muggle father's name of Snape...or perhaps someone else originally came up with this nickname as a way of trying to make Snape feel better about this..."You're a half-blood Prince!"...sounds almost a bit cutesy to me. Cheryl From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 15:02:54 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804150254.13457.qmail@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136395 Del: > yet he keeps giving stupid reasons why they > shouldn't be together. Marozi: See, I don't think his reasons are all that stupid. The man has real problems, and the Awesome Power of Her Great, Great Lurve is not going to make it all go away. One, he is acutely depressed, and not just about her. The first we see of him in HBP, he comes to Harry's first-ever birthday party and can't talk about anything but death and destruction. He is not in a healthy state of mind at the moment. Two, I think he *is* too old for her. He's my age, and she's my students' age, and the very thought makes me shudder. Age difference is not just a number. In terms of maturity and life experience, he is several lifetimes too old for a girly-grrl candy raver. Three, I know she says she's ready for the werewolf thing, but I just don't believe she knows what she's talking about. The whole squicky werewolf patronus thing just made me say, "Girl, that wolf is NOT going to protect you. It's going to bite you if it can." If I were Lupin, I would run like the wind on the basis of that alone. I think the HIV metaphor is very appropriate here. You may still want to be with the person, but "I don't care!" is just not a valid response. You had BETTER care, because it is actually a pretty big damned deal. Susan McGee: > I wonder if she did see all the > speculation about > Remus and Sirius and decided to shut it down > herself? Marozi: Well, I don't know, but I have to say, If de-gaying Lupin was the intention, then showing him languishing to torch songs was probably not the best way to accomplish it. That is without doubt the most old-school camp thing that has ever happened in a Harry Potter book, Snape in drag NOT excluded. Really, he wouldn't be the first gay man to get involved with a woman, but torch songs? Hnh. Anyway, with Tonks's powers, she could bend him over the back of a chair without even needing the attachments. So maybe the sex will keep them together, in spite of the fact that he is clearly TOO OLD for her. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 15:28:35 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:28:35 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136396 Question: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" JKR: "Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has". === If Rowling says Snape is more culpable than Voldemort in ANY sense then Snape most have done something pretty horrific, like murdering the wisest kindest character in the book. Some things are beyond redemption and that is one of them. I think the person who loved Snape was Lilly in her 6th year, she didn't start going with James until the 7th . In the 6th they both would have been taking Advanced Potions and both were good at it. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Lilly didn't give him the playful nickname "The Half Blood Prince". Eggplant From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Aug 4 15:30:48 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:30:48 -0000 Subject: Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136397 > Kerri: > > That's a point, but is there going to be anybody at Hogwarts in > the last book? I would assume that since the school will most likely > be closed, there will not be anyone living there, so the danger of > Aragog's spawn running rampant shouldn't be a concern. then again, > you never know. > > > Kerri. Hickengruendler: I guess the school will remain open. The teachers said at the end of HBP, that as long as one students wants to remain in Hogwarts to learn, the school should remain open. And I think this is what will happen. Not to mention, that even if the school closes, a few characters will probably still live there. Hagrid, very likely, and seeing that his cottage is close to the forest, he might be in danger. Filch and Trelawney will probably stay in the castle as well. Hickengruendler From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 15:45:53 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:45:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore knowing Parseltongue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136398 "oiboyz" wrote: > You don't need a connection > with Slytherin to know Parseltongue; > it's a rare gift but no one ever > said that *only* Slytherin and his > descendants had it. Voldemort told Harry in Chamber Of Secrets : "There are strange likenesses between us, after all. Even you must have noticed. Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by Muggles. Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself We even look something alike > Come to think of it, doesn't GoF > mention something about Dumbledore > speaking a lot of languages? That was Barty Crouch Senior. Eggplant From kcrystalwolf at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 15:39:28 2005 From: kcrystalwolf at hotmail.com (kcrystalwolf) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:39:28 -0000 Subject: Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136399 Hi Everyone, I just joined a few days ago. I have been reading many of your posts.. there are a ton! And I have a few questions. Where do we see.... "what Dumbledore gathered from the smoke tendrils is that the soul piece in Harry is divided from Harry's soul." I don't remember reading that at all.. although clearly I don't read as carefully as many of you do! Mostly I read the HP books for fun. I only signed on here because the end of book six was SO emotional I felt I needed a little grown up conversation about it. My other question is, don't the pictures of Headmasters talk? Are they a little piece of the headmasters' souls? The pictures of Harry's parents don't talk, but the pictures on the walls at Hogwarts often do. It seems like an inconsistency to me. And JKR says dead is dead, but how come there are some ghosts that are "half-dead"? I realize this is a fantasy, but if you are looking for it to make sense, some of those things just don't seem to. And as for the Horcrux thing.. I hope Harry isn't a horcrux for Tom's soul (like DD I think calling him Voldemort gives him exactly what he wants)But I am afraid he might be.. there would be things about that that either wouldn't make sense to me or I wouldn't like.. like how could he carry a piece of that soul and not either know it, or be evil? And I am afraid it would mean Harry would have to die in the last book.. Which reminds me.. someone has said there are seven books.. is that correct? I have only recently heard that.. but it fits with the 7 horcruxes thing. There was something else I wanted to ask, but I can't remember it right now, so I guess this is plenty for one post.. I will be interested in your responses. -Crystalwolf From mrtrenier at wi.rr.com Thu Aug 4 15:03:10 2005 From: mrtrenier at wi.rr.com (Mark Trenier) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:03:10 -0000 Subject: The Missing Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136400 Please forgive me for spoiling the book for you, but Harry and the others had their hands on the real horcrux when they cleaned out the cabinet in the Black House. In the OOTP,Chapter 6, page 108, I have the Adult British version, they come across "a heavy locket that none of them could open". Earlier in the same chapter, page 104 we learn that Regulus Black, Sirius's younger brother, was killed by LV. It all makes sense if the author of the note found in the fake locket, page 609 in HBP US Version is Regulus A. Black. JKR is always slipping in little asides that become important later. Mark. From RoxyElliot at aol.com Thu Aug 4 15:48:24 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:48:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of Molly Message-ID: <27.77812fcd.302392c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136401 I like Molly and always have. It's so neat that she's a SAHM by day and a super hero member of the OOTP at night. For me the Weasley family are all about bravery and loyalty and it's no wonder that Harry has become so attached to them all. I think Molly comes off as a pain sometimes because the books are written from the perspective of teenagers. Of course she's going to drive her children mad. It's what parents of teenagers do. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 14:57:16 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:57:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Unforgivables (was Re: Ghouls and Inferni) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136402 John Kearns wrote: > (snip) >...I don't think Dumbledore would /ever/ ask someone to > perform a Killing Curse on /anything/ for /any/ reason. Doesn't he > say it's the supreme act of evil? It tears the soul, which can > never be redeemed? Whether through legilimency at that moment or by > any sort of pre-arranged plan, it doesn't matter - I just don't > think it fits Dumbledore's character any more than begging for his > life would fit it. But if he was 'dead', or nearly dead, anyway, and nothing could stop him, would it be a request for someone to *murder*? I agree with the poster who said that JKR probably wouldn't get into the euthanasia debate in what is supposed to be a series of children's books, so I'm having trouble with this whenever I recall that this *is* a series of children's books. Could it be represented as stopping a burgeoning Inferus, instead of killing Dumbledore, by the author in the next book? I do think what can be done within the bounds of a children's story must be a consideration, though she's gone very close to the edge before, and some would say she's fallen off and hasn't landed yet. How can one recognize an Inferus, or one in the making? Did Dumbledore show all the signs? And if he was already on his way, how did he keep his own intellect until that very last moment? (snip) > (John's choices): > a) Dumbledore was somehow already dead or mostly dead, > thus making it not evil; >(b) the AK was faked; or >(c) Snape is evil... (snip) > Are there any other explanations? I backed away from quite saying that Dumbledore was dead already. If so, then how did he hold a conversation, or even weakly plead? I suppose we could say that Dumbledore was the greatest wizard in the world at the time so nothing is impossible for him, but that leads us into more God-like qualities, and he admits that he's human and makes mistakes. Yet, if his statement to Draco had more than one meaning, for more than one person to hear, that V couldn't kill someone if they were already dead, then it would be an extreme, even creepy, yet oddly logical, conclusion to come to, based on the events. Harry did perform some sort of resurrection spell in the cave, after all, did he revive Inferus!Dumbledore? We do know that ghosts exist in the Potterverse. How long before the ghost is aware of its existence? How soon before that ghost can interact? Does it retain its memories? Can it possess an Inferus body, even temporarily? Could it merely hang on for long enough to get its immediate affairs in order? I do come down on the SnapeIsNotVoldemort's side of things. I don't know if he's merely ESE!ButOnOurSide, or TW! But Rowling has offered us what seemed like conclusive proof before, about many characters, which have been twisted around to prove the opposite. I wouldn't put anything past her. Ceridwen. From oiboyz at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 16:01:49 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:01:49 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136403 I think a big loose end is the room of Requirement-- how does it work and why couldn't Harry always get in? JKR spent a lot of page time on this in Book 6 and never resolved it. Malfoy's Vanishing Cabinet was in the same storeroom where Harry put the Prince's textbook and where Trelawny wanted to hide her sherry bottles. They all visited the same place, but they could only find it when they wanted the room for its own sake. Harry couldn't find it by asking to go where Malfoy had been or see what Malfoy had been doing, and he couldn't get in while Malfoy was already in there. But *Trelawny* could walk right in on Malfoy when she needed the place for other purposes, and wasn't just trying to catch him. This is the Mirror of Erised concept again. The way the magical object performs depends not on what you want it to do or on how powerful you are, but on your intentions. That's why Harry was able to beat Voldie way back in Book 1, and we're about to come full circle. Check out this quote from the end of the "Horcruxes" chapter: 'You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!' said Dumbledore loudly. 'The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror? Voldemort should have known then what he was dealing with, but he did not!' I can already see it coming-- the climactic battle at Hogwarts between Harry and Voldemort (and the Order and the Death Eaters) in which all the magical objects and quirky properties of Hogwarts that we've learned about in the first six books will come into play. Dumbledore talked about Voldemort's attatchment to Hogwarts, that "stronghold of ancient magic", and of course Harry is attatched to the place too, so it's reasonable that they'd both choose to make their stands there. And though Harry can't even begin to match Voldie's power in the magic arts, I bet he knows even more than Voldie about Hogwarts, after years of exploring, mischief-making and using the Map. That will be one advantage Harry has over LV, and another will be his purity of intention, which will make objects like the Room of Requirement and the Mirror work for Harry and against Voldemort. Harry's going to kick some serious Dark Lord butt and I can't wait to read it! -oiboyz From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 16:09:39 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] mothers in HP and a correction of my fathers post In-Reply-To: <212.62443e9.302319e1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050804160939.19961.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136404 Schlobin at aol.com wrote: ...EDITED... Augusta Longbottom, mother to either Frank or Alice Longbottom, probably Frank. Juli: She's Frank's mother, in OoP, at St Mungo's when Alice gives Neville the gum wrapper, Augusta gives her daughter-in-law a annoyed look or something... Don't have the book here, sorry. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From literature_Caro at web.de Thu Aug 4 16:11:01 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:11:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin Can't Apparate? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2854399.20050804181101@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136405 > Marianne: > This surprises me - Lupin can't Apparate? Where were we told that? > I'm not being snippy here; I really have no recollection that this is > the case. Caro: For sure Lupin can apparate! he was with the others collecting Harry from the Dursleys in OOP. When you reread it you will find that they apparated in the kitchen. Tonks told Harry in his room that she knocked over something (which I don't remember right now what it was). Caro From literature_Caro at web.de Thu Aug 4 16:15:18 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:15:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Life debt In-Reply-To: <42F22ACF.000008.03800@D33LDD51> References: <42F22ACF.000008.03800@D33LDD51> Message-ID: <1229426775.20050804181518@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136406 > Does any one know or have any idea what happens if a "life debt" is not met > or honored? > What happens if Peter P. doesn't honor his life debt to Harry? Didn't James > death release > Snape from his life debt to James? At what point is a life debut funfilled? > And, how is a life > debt repaid? > Donna Caro: There are societies where a life debt is not only between two people. The saved one owes his services (or what ever) to the saviors whole family. Could this also be for the Potter universe? Possible. Caro From muthukumar.subramanian at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 10:05:12 2005 From: muthukumar.subramanian at gmail.com (Muthukumar S) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:05:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136407 Hi, First of all let me introduce my self: Name: Muthukumar Subramanian / Muthu Location: India Profession: S/W Engg. Other Attributes: Reading books is my favourite passtime.. and Harry Potter is one of the best; Am a big fan of Harry Potter... Now to the current question: In one of the JKR interviews there was question abotu Petunia? and JKR has definitely said that Petunia is not a Squib (like Mrs. Figg); and there is more than that meets the eye w.r.t. Petunia. My Theory: * Petunia is not a Wizard. * She doesnt actually hate her sister Lilly. * Dumbledore asked her help to protect Harry. But still i'm not able to guess what else shes at this moment... Thanks, -Muthu From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 12:11:50 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 05:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804121150.2967.qmail@web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136408 Del wrote: > If anyone is begging, it's Lupin. His arguments are > ridiculous: he's > too old, too poor, too dangerous, Tonks deserves > someone young and > whole. Those are no arguments to oppose to *love*, > and they > infantilise Tonks, making her look like she doesn't > know what's good > for her. It's Lupin who is grasping at straws, not > Tonks. Tonks is > basically telling Lupin "I love you, you love me, so > *please* stop > playing that ridiculous game, it *hurts*", and Lupin > is answering "I > don't wanna leave my pity party, go away". > Cat writes: I don't think what Lupin says about himself is ridiculous. They're all true. He is old for her, poor, and could be dangerous. He's probably aging twice as fast as a normal wizard, which means he won't live as long. But being the selfless person that he is, he's putting her happiness before his. He's thinking about what's best for her, which you can't help but admire. Another man in his place would've jumped at the opportunity of being with a younger woman, putting himself first. Let's face it. This is what usually happens because people think about their happiness first. But I'm happy about the Remus/Tonks union. He really wouldn't have much of a life after Book 7, but now that he's got a girlfriend, I don't see him dying. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 16:27:11 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:27:11 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136409 "eggplant107" wrote: > If Rowling says Snape is more culpable than Voldemort in ANY sense > then Snape most have done something pretty horrific, like murdering > the wisest kindest character in the book. zgirnius: Well, joining the DEs is pretty horrific too... But, this is not what I think JKR was pointing out here. In HBP we get a lot of Tom Riddle's backstory. And it is really grim. In particular, we can probably say with some assurance at this point that Tom was never loved. So, that Snape was loved, by some person or persons yet to be disclosed, means that Snape *should have known better* than to fall into evil ways. Which he certainly did, nobody is arguing otherwise, the man was a Death Eater and told Voldemort about the prophecy. The discussions are all about what did or did not happen in the years since Snape was first a DE. Thus, even if (for example) Snape made a sincere return to the good guys as DD believed, and has done his nasty, snarky, unpleasant best to stick with this decision ever since, he is still more culpable (in the sense of "worthy of blame") than Riddle, who doesn't know better. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 16:27:24 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:27:24 -0000 Subject: Life debt In-Reply-To: <1229426775.20050804181518@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136410 > Caro: > There are societies where a life debt is not only between two people. > The saved one owes his services (or what ever) to the saviors whole > family. Could this also be for the Potter universe? Possible. > > Caro Could you please elaborate? I confess, the idea of a society with the "life debt" as a sort of legal institution or any other kind of convention is a complete revelation to me. a_svirn From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 16:26:48 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:26:48 -0000 Subject: The Missing Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mark Trenier" wrote: > Please forgive me for spoiling the book for you, but Harry and the others had their hands > on the real horcrux when they cleaned out the cabinet in the Black House. In the > OOTP,Chapter 6, page 108, I have the Adult British version, they come across "a heavy > locket that none of them could open". Earlier in the same chapter, page 104 we learn that > Regulus Black, Sirius's younger brother, was killed by LV. It all makes sense if the author > of the note found in the fake locket, page 609 in HBP US Version is Regulus A. Black. > JKR is always slipping in little asides that become important later. > > Mark. You've not spoiled the book. This has been discussed at length in previous threads. There are so many on horcruxes it is impossible for me to keep up with them. Many have speculated that this locket may have been one of the objects Mundungs stole. Perhaps he gave it to Aberforth, if he is indeed the one Mundungus spoke to in Hogsmeade when witnessed by the trio. If you want to read more about this on the list, you may want to do what I do...pick a post about a horcrux and upthread until you find the one you're interested in! Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 16:32:57 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:32:57 -0000 Subject: So, are there 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136412 I know we seem to have discussed horcruxes "to death" (pardon the very bad pun). I wanted others' opinions to this question. We know LV wanted to split his soul 7 times. The question I have is this: Did he intend to have 7 horcruxes, with the part of his soul remaining in him being the 8th part of his soul? Or did he intend to have 7 parts of his soul...6 in horcruxes and 1 in his body? The second part of my question is this: Did he succeed in esatblishing the last horcrux, or was he thwarted at Godric's Hollow? If he was thwarted, does he have 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? Of the horcruxes, 2 have been destroyed (the diary and the ring - isn't this what bar-b-qued DD's hand?). It seems the answer to this is crucial for understanding what will happen in book 7. Julie -- who sometimes thinks herself into confusion From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 16:38:25 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:38:25 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > I think a big loose end is the room of Requirement-- how does it work > and why couldn't Harry always get in? JKR spent a lot of page time > on this in Book 6 and never resolved it. Malfoy's Vanishing Cabinet > was in the same storeroom where Harry put the Prince's textbook and > where Trelawny wanted to hide her sherry bottles. They all visited > the same place, but they could only find it when they wanted the room > for its own sake. Harry couldn't find it by asking to go where > Malfoy had been or see what Malfoy had been doing, and he couldn't > get in while Malfoy was already in there. But *Trelawny* could walk > right in on Malfoy when she needed the place for other purposes, and > wasn't just trying to catch him. zgirnius: I thought this was actually explained/implied. Draco is using the incarnation of the Room of Requirement which is used by the whole castle as a sort of storeroom. This is because the broken Vanishing Cabinet was left in that romm (along with all sorts of other broken, old, unwanted stuff). This is why Trelawney is able to get in as well, she is going to the *same* incarnation of the Room, in order to stash her booze. When Harry wants to hide the HBP's book from Snape, he also gets into the Room easily, and again, it is the same incarnation of the Room. Since Draco is not in the room at the time (he's off to the hospital wing to recover from the Sectumsempra Curse) Harry does not realize that *this* is where Draco has been. He could have walked by the Vanishing Cabinet without ever realizing its significance... Contrast this to the time in OotP when Draco and pals have no trouble getting in to the DA meeting. Draco does not find the room by trying to get into "wherever Potter is", he gets into the right room by needing to get into the meeting room of the DA. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 16:55:31 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:55:31 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136414 "zgirnius" wrote: > Well, joining the DEs is pretty > horrific too To claim that just becoming a foot soldier in the Death Eater army makes one MORE culpable than Voldemort if one has been loved would be to engage in hyperbolic language, and that's not Rowling's style. Rowling did warn us, 2 years ago in a interview, she seemed surprised and a little alarmed at how much people liked Shape, she said: "You shouldn't think [Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." Under ANY circumstances to compare Snape to the astronomical evil of Voldemort he must have done something much much worse than just becoming a Death Eater, and now we know what it was. Another much more recent quotation by Rowling I think also relates to Snape: "I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that." Eggplant From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 4 17:09:05 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:09:05 -0400 Subject: Lupin Can't Apparate? Message-ID: <003301c59917$38f476d0$9f62d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136415 Caro said: >>For sure Lupin can apparate! he was with the others collecting Harry from the Dursleys in OOP. When you reread it you will find that they apparated in the kitchen. Tonks told Harry in his room that she knocked over something (which I don't remember right now what it was). CathyD now: First, I have no opinion of whether Lupin can apparate or not. Hardly makes a difference, really, IMO. However, all of the Advance Guard had brooms with them. Who's to say they didn't fly to the Dursley's as well as fly Harry away? One more convicing piece of evidence that Lupin can't apparate though, is in POA. Dumbledore came into Lupin's office and told Lupin his carriage was waiting at the gate. No need, really, for a carriage if you've only got to walk off the school grounds and apparate somewhere. I do think though, that we're led to believe the Order members apparated to the Ministry of Magic for the battle at the end of OP (obviously, they didn't take the undeground). Although, now that we know about Side-Along Apparition, someone (Tonks) could have taken Lupin with her. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 4 17:20:03 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:20:03 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136416 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Question: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" > > JKR: "Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even > than Voldemort, who never has". > === > > I think the person who loved Snape > was Lilly in her 6th year, she didn't start going with James until the > 7th . In the 6th they both would have been taking Advanced Potions > and both were good at it. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Lilly > didn't give him the playful nickname "The Half Blood Prince". > > Eggplant sorry, have to disagree. In OotP, after Snape calls her a racist name and James threatens Snape to apologized to Lily, Lily states to James "I don't want you to make him apologize. You're as bad as he is..." meaning she didn't think very highly of either Snape or James. James cleaned up his act for Lily. We see no evidence that Snape ever did. I believe it was Snape's mum that loved him. Mother figures are very important in the HP series, and as Rowling is a mum herself, I am sure that might have something to do with it. And Snape, who called himself after his mother's maiden name and was proud of that, probably loved his mother back. I wonder if we will even know what happened to Eileen? colebiancardi From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 17:35:33 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:35:33 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136417 "colebiancardi" wrote: > sorry, have to disagree. In OotP, after > Snape calls her a racist name and James > threatens Snape to apologized to Lily, > Lily states to James "I don't want you > to make him apologize. You're as bad as > he is..." meaning she didn't think very > highly of either Snape or James. If you knew nothing about Ron and Hermione and then watched one of their big fights you might think they hated each other too and say it was imposable for them to be very good friends one year later. > I believe it was Snape's mum that loved him. Lilly loving Snape would be interesting, Snape's mother loving him would not be. I think Rowling will go for interesting. Eggplant From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 17:37:58 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry is not Gryffindor's heir (was Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: <1123172354.3421.25730.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050804173758.72753.qmail@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136418 ongj87 wrote: "I think, putting the rivalry of Slytherin and Gryffindor together with the prophecy, he concluded that the one to be his equal and rival would obviously be the heir to Gryffindor." Morgan here: JKR has shot down that theory. Read the text of her Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview below where she states that Harry is not the hair of Gryffindor: MA: What about Harry's family ? his grandparents ? were they killed? JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them. MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well. JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah. MA: Another one bites the dust. --Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From feenyjam at msu.edu Thu Aug 4 17:44:02 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:44:02 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136419 Eggplant wrote: > Question: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" > > JKR: "Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even > than Voldemort, who never has". > === > > If Rowling says Snape is more culpable than Voldemort in ANY sense > then Snape most have done something pretty horrific, like murdering > the wisest kindest character in the book. Some things are beyond > redemption and that is one of them. I think the person who loved Snape > was Lilly in her 6th year, she didn't start going with James until the > 7th . In the 6th they both would have been taking Advanced Potions > and both were good at it. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Lilly > didn't give him the playful nickname "The Half Blood Prince". > Greenfirespike says: Although I personally don't like the idea that Lilly and Snape were perhpas dating, that doesn't mean they didn't. (as an aside, I didn't like the idea of DD dying either, but oh well!) Lilly was also a half- blood, and the idea of the two of them growing close together appears to have merit. It would also explain the strong hatred between James and Snape. Of course, of the little we know about Snape's mother, the Price herself, perhaps it is also likely that JRK meant that Snape and a loving mother or father. Finally, from the quote I only get that Snape has been loved, not that he has ever loved anybody (not to knock the Snape/Lilly shipers). Greenfirespike - who took a peek at Mugglenet's GrandPre's calendar and noticed in the "Cage of Light" that Lilly appears to be emerging out of the wand with James already standing there. She must have drawn it based off of the first edition of GOF. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 4 17:44:33 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:44:33 -0400 Subject: Snape as having been loved Message-ID: <004c01c5991c$2cbe9a30$9f62d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136420 > CathyD again: > JKR's recent interview said that Snape had loved. That is the > power Dumbledore suspects as being the one the Dark Lord knows > not. Nora said: >>Umm, no, it did not , Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. CathyD now You're right, I got JKR's quote backwards. However, if Snape had never loved anyone, then I don't think he's culpable of anything, quite frankly. You can't stop someone loving you. That is something the other person is totally in control of and you are not. Totally. Whether it was Lily, or Florence, or Narcissa that loved Severus doesn't matter if Snape never returned that love. Snape may already have decided to join the Death Eaters and felt that kind of passionate, romantic love was not something he could easily compartmentalise. I notice JKR did not commit herself as to whether or not Snape loved in return. She only answered the question as asked. In an interview on 16 Aug 2004 JKR, in response to the question has Voldemort or Tom Riddle ever cared for or loved anyone, she said, "No, never." Now in this current interview she claims Voldie has never *been* loved, either. I have to say I'm having a hard time buying that. I'm quite sure, that while she was pregnant and for that short hour she lived after Tom's death, that Merope loved him. I can't imagine that not one of his caregivers in the orphanage, or none of the children at the orphanage, ever cared for him. Or that not one of his female classmates at Hogwarts ever had loving feelings towards this very attactive, very intelligent, young man. It just doesn't make any sense. I can imagine him not returning the feelings, but I can't believe that no one, thoughout this person's whole life, ever loved him. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 4 17:44:29 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:44:29 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "colebiancardi" wrote: > > > sorry, have to disagree. In OotP, after > > Snape calls her a racist name and James > > threatens Snape to apologized to Lily, > > Lily states to James "I don't want you > > to make him apologize. You're as bad as > > he is..." meaning she didn't think very > > highly of either Snape or James. > > If you knew nothing about Ron and Hermione and then watched one of > their big fights you might think they hated each other too and say it > was imposable for them to be very good friends one year later. > I think in the context of the scene, it speaks volumes. This wasn't a fight between Lily and Snape, it was a fight between Lily & James - which is closer to the Ron/Hermione relationship. Lily just dismissed Snape - don't forget Lupin states that Lily was kind to everyone. And Ron never, ever, ever called Hermoine a racist name. NEVER. Snape had no problemos there. To say Snape loved Lily is like saying Draco loves Hermoine(and I know there is a lot of fan-fic out there). > > I believe it was Snape's mum that loved him. > > Lilly loving Snape would be interesting, Snape's mother loving him > would not be. I think Rowling will go for interesting. why would Lily loving Snape be more interesting? We found out that Narcissa's love for Draco in this book to be utterly fascinating....We know nothing about Eileen and how she influenced Snape's life. Lily loving Snape would be trite and using an overdone cliche - the "luv" triangle, or the man-who-became-bitter-because-the- prettiest-girl-in-the-world-didn't-love-him-back-but-he-has-become- good theory. It isn't interesting, nor new - I expect more from Rowling than some recycled "romance" from a bodice ripper novel that you can pick up a the drug store. colebiancardi From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Thu Aug 4 17:50:20 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:50:20 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136422 And Snape, who called > himself after his mother's maiden name and was proud of that, > probably loved his mother back. I wonder if we will even know what > happened to Eileen? Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. Im a Prince :) Cheryl From lealess at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 17:52:54 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:52:54 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136423 I find the whole "loved therefore more culpable/should have known better" argument fairly specious. Didn't Bellatrix Black's parents love their children, or the Malfoys, Crouch? It may not have been selfless, no-strings-attached love, but it was love none-the-same. Don't the Weasleys love Percy? Do you think Narcissa and Bellatrix might love their husbands? Narcissa loves her son, and he loves her, enough to try to save her life from Voldemort's revenge. So how does love play into Draco's decision not to kill Dumbledore? It may have been the reason he started the whole scheme in the first place. Another example: suppose Snape's grandparents Prince and Snape loved their children. Then his mother married a husband who loved her, but turned out to be abusive, let's say, he had power issues with a witch wife. Should Tobias Snape's parents' love have prevented him from being abusive? Should Eileen Prince's parent's love have prevented her from making a terrible choice in her husband, a choice that would probably affect the future attitudes of her child? Would it prevent her from continuing to believe she loved an abusive husband? If Lily loved Snape, as a friend or even more, was it selfless, no- strings-attached love? Obviously not, if she turned her back on him later. If Dumbledore loved Snape, in a selfless way (with strings attached -- being a spy), should that love on its own be enough for Snape to make decisions about his life, the kinds of decisions Dumbledore himself might have had to make at one time, even with love? Honestly, what does love have to do with it? People make mistakes, whether or not they are loved, for complex reasons, or just by accident. It is teaching morality, backed by love, that (hopefully) prevents these kinds of mistakes, not love on its own. It goes back to an earlier post I made that got dropped in a black hole: what is this love we are talking about? lealess From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Aug 4 17:57:25 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:57:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009d01c5991d$fa2a3aa0$3121f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 136424 Greenfirespike says: Although I personally don't like the idea that Lilly and Snape were perhpas dating, that doesn't mean they didn't. (as an aside, I didn't like the idea of DD dying either, but oh well!) Lilly was also a half- blood, and the idea of the two of them growing close together appears to have merit. It would also explain the strong hatred between James and Snape. Sherry now: Actually, Lily was a muggle born, not a half blood. Snape called her a "mudblood" which is a horrible name to call a muggle born witch or wizard. If nothing else, that makes me doubt the idea that Snape and Lily were ever in love, friends or dating. Sherry From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 4 18:03:49 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:03:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Unforgivables (was Re: Ghouls and Inferni) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136425 John Kearns: > >...I don't think Dumbledore would /ever/ ask someone to > > perform a Killing Curse on /anything/ for /any/ reason. Ceridwen: > But if he was 'dead', or nearly dead, anyway, and nothing could stop > him, would it be a request for someone to *murder*? houyhnhnm: Well, I don't find anyone in agreement with my theory, but I cling to it with ever increasing certainty. :-) I think Draco's being saved from killing or being killed is *very* important. We have seen over and over how protective Dumbledore is of Hogwarts students, even when they are working against him (Marietta Edgecombe) and his implacable anger at anyone who threatens the welfare of a student. Using a student, right inside Hogwarts, as an assassin, is the foulest blow Voldemort could have struck and I think it is very important to Dumbledore to thwart it. I don't think Dumbledore "planned" to die. He knows he is going to die. He is an old, old man. He has been seriously injured by the destruction of one horcrux and could die as a result of continuing to search for more. Then he is faced with the Draco plot. I think his instructions to Snape are to prevent Draco from succeeding even if, as a last resort, Snape has to step in and do the deed himself. It is a choice between the lesser of two evils and Dumbledore is all about the necessity of making choices. Sacrificing himself (only if it cannot be avoided) to save Draco is a blow against Voldemort in a manner analogous to the way in which Voldemort's curse rebounded on him because of Lily's willingness to sacrifice herself for Harry. BTW, Dumbledore says "By an act of evil--the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart." He does not say by the use of an AK and he specifies murder. (We don't have to get in to euthanasia to find an example of killing which would not be murder. One could kill in self defense or by accident) Dumbledore orders Harry to feed him what he suspects may be a lethal, though slow acting, poison. Is he thereby ordering Harry to tear his soul? From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 4 18:12:44 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:12:44 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136426 lealess: > It goes back to an earlier post I made that got dropped in a black > hole: what is this love we are talking about? houyhnhnm" It's got to be agapanthus love. (Thanks to mcjuels for pointing out the allusion!) From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 4 18:14:49 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:14:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Mudblood" References: <1123097499.1583.35219.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c59920$68bc47e0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 136427 Del wrote: >Just a word of caution: "mudblood" is an insult, a racial slur. It is >the equivalent of things like "nigger", and other such infamous terms. >The correct term to use is "Muggleborn". > >I personally don't mind much, but I know some people on the list are >extremely sensitive to such matters, having experienced racial >prejudice in their own life, and having been on the receiving end of >RL equivalents of "mudblood". There are real wizards on this list? I'm astonished. I thought we were talking about a work of fiction here. I've not seen any evidence of discrimination in the WW on the basis of race or sex. Whether the history of the Muggle side of the Potterverse was influenced by the existence of the WW I suspect we shall never know but it seems quite obvious that JKR intended her world to reflect the ethnic makeup of both sides of humanity. So can we calm down on the PC? Mudblood is used in the books and I don't see any need to sanitise it on the list. an unpleasant term to the protagonists, but as I said, they are fictional. It's a bit like saying you have a problem with the word spogbat. hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From feenyjam at msu.edu Thu Aug 4 18:41:50 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:41:50 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved (sorry about that) In-Reply-To: <009d01c5991d$fa2a3aa0$3121f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136428 > Sherry said: > > Actually, Lily was a muggle born, not a half blood. Snape called her a > "mudblood" which is a horrible name to call a muggle born witch or wizard. > If nothing else, that makes me doubt the idea that Snape and Lily were ever > in love, friends or dating. > Greenfirespike says: Sherry, you are correct. I am sorry about that! Lilly is muggle born, and not a half blood. My faulty line of thinking went: that Lilly and James became close in Slughorn's class. That she reached out to him because he was perhaps getting some slack for being a half- blood. She, being muggle born, also got slack from the Slytherin students and gave Snape the nickname as a means of forming a connection between them. As we know, Lilly was always kind to everyone she met. Thus, I mis-typed when I wrote that Lilly was a half blood. Colebiancardi said (with quote from eggplant107): > > sorry, have to disagree. In OotP, after Snape calls her a racist name and James threatens Snape to apologized to Lily, Lily states to James "I don't want you to make him apologize. You're as bad as he is..." meaning she didn't think very highly of either Snape or James. > If you knew nothing about Ron and Hermione and then watched one of their big fights you might think they hated each other too and say it was imposable for them to be very good friends one year later. > >I think in the context of the scene, it speaks volumes. This wasn't a fight between Lily and Snape, it was a fight between Lily & James - which is closer to the Ron/Hermione relationship. Lily just dismissed Snape - don't forget Lupin states that Lily was kind to everyone. And Ron never, ever, ever called Hermoine a racist name. NEVER. Snape had no problemos there. To say Snape loved Lily is like saying Draco loves Hermoine(and I know there is a lot of fan-fic out there). Greenfirespike returns to say: I think that Snape had to experience some type of love, and the leading persons are his mother, father, or Lilly. When TR came to Hogwarts he was well liked by both staff and classmates, but he had never known love prior. So perhaps by the time he arrived at Hogwarts he has already made himself incapable of love. Whereas, Snape may have had a slightly more normal childhood prior to Hogwarts. Thus, while TR had quite a successful and rather uneventful Hogwarts career with respect to problems with peers, Snape had himself a rather unpleasant career at Hogwarts; including maybe feelings for Lilly (even is small). Thus, Snape saw the dark arts as a means to obtain power he sought and perhaps vindication towards his enemy peers (the Maruaders). I also think that Snape calls Lilly a mudblood more because of rejected feelings for her, not simply because he hates mudbloods. Snape is very selective about who he likes and dislikes, and it is not entirely based off of blood lineage. From Nanagose at aol.com Thu Aug 4 18:43:34 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:43:34 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136429 > Christina: > > Exactly. Harry has shown magical talent before (ie, the Patronus > Charm). Also, didn't Voldemort give Harry some additional magical > power when he tried to AK him? That's why he can speak Parseltongue > and such. > >Cindy: > >No disagreement there, but most of his magical talent hasn't >manifested itself in a dramatic enough way to be more valuable than >Dumbledore. Christina: Sorry, Cindy, I just realized that you basically said the exact same thing I did in the post before the one I was replying to. But to be clear, I wasn't trying to argue that Harry is more valuable than Dumbledore. I was just trying to add on to what Empooress had said. >Cindy: >Even if this is true, and it certainly may well be it sounds >plausable enough (I would imagine that the owner/creator of a >Horcrux would not have to destroy the "object" in which the Horcurx >resides to retrieve back that part of their soul if they so desired >or in this case, may have happened unwittingly) but it still leaves >us with just what is it that Harry is, possesses or has the ability >to do to make him more valuable than Dumbledore in defeating >Voldemort? Christina: Again, for clarity's sake, I wasn't trying to comment on how valuable Harry is. I was trying to suggest that, even if Voldemort *had* created a horcrux in Harry (intentionally or unintenionally), the blood Voldemort uses in the spell to recreate himself should have returned the horcruxed part of his soul back to his body. This would mean that even if Harry was a horcrux at one time, he shouldn't be one anymore (just as, I would guess, if Ginny died and Tom Riddle "escaped" the diary, the diary itself wouldn't be a horcrux anymore). These are just my own thoughts, of course. We really don't know enough about horcruxes to be able to predict exactly how they work. I was replying to Empooress, who was replying to an uncited comment (which, after going up the thread a bit, I realize you made) about the seventh book ending with Ron, Hermione, and the others having to kill Harry the Horcrux. I would think that if he was one (and DD knew about it), Dumbledore wouldn't say that Harry was more valuable than he was himself, considering the fact that Harry would have to die before Voldemort could be defeated. >Cindy: >To me, everything we have seen, including Lily's protection, does >not give Harry the advantage which would "mark him as his equal" to >Voldemort. Christina: The way I interpret the prophecy, the "marking him as his equal" refers to the literal mark of the scar. Because Voldemort essentially chose Harry to be his adversary, he raised him to his level. Also, Dumbledore points out to Harry in OotP that Voldemort thought that the half-blood wizard (not the pureblood) was the other person in the prophecy. So you could say that Harry and Voldemort are equals in that way too. >Cindy: >I don't think having the brother to Voldemort's wand will mean >anything in the future, since we are learning so much more about non- >verbal spells. Christina: Non-verbal spells don't require words, but they still require wands. I personally think that Harry will have to defeat Voldemort in some way that doesn't have anything to do with wands. I think Voldemort is unbelievably powerful, and I would find it difficult to believe that in a dueling of wands, Harry would win. And finally, getting down to the real question (and a really interesting one too- I'm surprised more people haven't given up their thoughts) that you posed in your original post, >Cindy: >So what IS it that is so unique and VALUABLE about Harry? Christina: Dumbledore does not say that Harry is unique and valuable, he simply says that Harry is *more* valuable than he is. I'm in the camp that thinks that Dumbledore's hand injury would have proved fatal eventually. If Dumbledore was already dying, then naturally he would be less valuable than the young-and-healthy Harry. Christina From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 18:43:58 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:43:58 -0000 Subject: Harry is not Gryffindor's heir (was Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: <20050804173758.72753.qmail@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Morgan Adams wrote: > > ongj87 wrote: "I think, putting the rivalry of Slytherin and Gryffindor together with the prophecy, he concluded that the one to be his equal and rival would obviously be the heir to Gryffindor." > > Morgan here: JKR has shot down that theory. Read the text of her Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview below where she states that Harry is not the hair of Gryffindor: > > MA: What about Harry's family ? his grandparents ? were they killed? > > JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life- so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them. > > MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well. > > JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah. > > MA: Another one bites the dust. > > --Morgan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I read that in the interview and again in this post. However, I need help with something. Just how DOES this shoot down the heir of Gryffindor theories? How does JKR's answer/backstory answer this? I was confused by MA's follow-up question then and I still am. Please enlighten! From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 14:20:19 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:20:19 -0000 Subject: Not to sound like the Psychology major that I am, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136431 > Julie - Hoping to sound somewhat like the clinical psychologist that > I am. So, I'm probably spouting off where I don't quite belong. Not a psychologist, not a psych. major, either. However, I do have a child who has been described as an almost classic Autistic (he doesn't spin things, he likes lines/lining things up). The husband and I have gone over and over how he ended up as an Autistic. We basically reject the MMR thing. Instead, we favor the genetic theory, and have examined ourselves and our families for some signs of autistic behavior. The husband has come down with the idea that he is more or less Asperger's, based on reading the criteria on- line. We both are somewhat anti-social, he more than me. And we have both been wrong about facial expressions, though believing at the time and afterwards, that we had been right. >As for your questions, I'd like to offer my opinion. >1. Snape being autistic --> Disagree. SS does not meet the criteria >for Autism or even Asperger's Disorder. He does not have >qualitative impairment in social interaction or communication; he >does not show repetitive or stereotyped behaviors or interests; and >I doubt he demonstrated delays in normal functioning prior to age >three. Granted, he's not the guy I would choose to hang out with, >but he is not autistic. (For comparison, Dustin Hoffman's character >in "Rainman" was a high functioning autistic person, and SS is >nothing like him.) Not all autistics have all the symptoms, from what the experts we've talked to have told us. And I've been wondering myself, if there is a portion of the spectrum that is not even quite Asperger's, that is like a 'missing link' between 'normal' and autistic. If so, I would put myself into that category. I'm social, but not too much so; I can 'go zen' on things (does Snape stim on making his potions?); I can, sometimes, make huge mistakes about what people want from me (how embarassing!). All the discussions elsewhere about the autistic spectrum have made us think things over, in the past fifteen years. Could Snape, while not being autistic, be a person who might be at higher risk for producing an autistic child? IMO, he does border on some of the autistic behaviors, esp. his anti-social behavior, which could just be his poor reading and reacting of visual cues, unless he employs Legilimency. But, that's just me, and with the (admittedly close) experience of having raised an autistic child for fifteen years so far. And as for Raymond Babbit (Rain Man), he comes off as more of a classic Autistic during portions of the movie, while being very high- functioning (able to reciprocate answers instead of just echoing) at others, to me. The self-hitting and the panic toward the end, for instance, as examples of more severe behavior. I agree that Dustin Hoffman did an excellent job! I hope I'm not treading on your toes this way, Julie. I most certainly do respect your background. I just wonder why I, and apparently at least one other person, noticed *some* possible Autistic traits in the Snape character, while others don't. Kathy, >I find that the biggest argument against Snape being one is that >Dumbledore hasn't strangled him in fourteen years. There are days...! ;) From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 14:40:52 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:40:52 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: <42E170D2.3080209@verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136432 Sherry Gomes wrote: > > this series is about Harry Potter. oh sure, it's also about > > Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, the Weasleys, Lupin, Sirius, Draco, > > Snape and Voldemort. Among many others. but in the end, it is > > Harry's story. Jocelyn: > You bring up LOTR, so I 'll go with that. Frodo would never have > managed to destroy the ring without major help from Stryder, > Boromir, Sam, and even Smeegol (sp?). To the last he had very > powerful people working to set the stage for Frodo, as the Ring > Bearer, to destroy the ring. Without Smeegol, he would have > failed. Snape is one of the heros, who, like stryder or Sam, will > help Harry get to the top of the mountain, or battle a mortal > Voldemort - once the hocruxes are destroyed. With regards to comparing HP to other famous fantasy heroes, I would argue that the HP series, just like the six Star Wars episodes, is geared towards the triumph of one character over a larger evil (Harry over LV, Luke over the Sith/Empire) the heart of the stories (and their narratives) are both told and driven by the presence of a conflicted evil villian. Over the course of both series, each episode or book takes you a little further along his path (while ostensibly following the "hero") and each gives you a little more information as to why it is Vader (or Severus) who is the real fascinating character of the story. The Harry Potter series is about Harry fighting Voldemort, but it is also - at its core - the tale of the rise or fall or both (and redemption) of Severus Snape. In all ways except title (and in the latest book, not even that) and POV he is just as much the "hero" as Harry, and moreso than any of Harry's friends. my $.02 redeyedwings From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 4 18:50:49 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:50:49 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved (sorry about that) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136433 Greenfirespike: > Snape had himself a rather unpleasant career at Hogwarts; houyhnhnm: Though it strikes me as curious that, during all his Saturday detentions, Harry never comes across a discipline card involving Snape. Maybe he took them out or maybe, like Draco, was just good at not getting caught. From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 4 18:57:22 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:57:22 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136434 So, building on Dumbledore's theory that Voldemort wanted to make a horcrux out of something from each of Hogwarts' founders, I think the horcrux that we don't know is from Ravenclaw. Alright, just to go over the horcruxes (though I'm pretty sure everyone here know them), they are: 1)the diary 2)the ring 3)Slytherin's locket (which was likely found at Grimmauld Place) 4)Hufflepuff's cup 5)Something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's *note: these 5 were made into horcruxes before Voldemort tries to kill Harry 6) Nagini (she was made into a horcrux when he killed Frank Bryce) As well, Dumbledore says that Voldemort was planning on making his last horcrux when he killed Harry, but since he failed, he was unable to do so. We also know that the Potters were in Godric's Hollow at that time. So, my theory is that at that time, Voldemort had already had three of his four "Hogwarts founder" horcruxes made (Slytherin, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw) and was anticipating making his last one (Gryffindor) with something from Godric's Hollow. I'm definitely not saying that I think Harry is an heir of Gryffindor or anything, I just think he must have thought it would powerful to make his Gryffindor horcrux at the village Gryffindor lived in (or at least the village named after him). But since the curse backfired, he couldn't make his last horcrux then, and he finally settled for making Nagini his last one years later. So I definitely think that the fifth horcrux is something of Ravenclaw's, which goes along with something JKR said which was along the lines of "Ravenclaw will have it's day in the next book". Rachael who thinks that one of the horcruxes is hidden in the Room of Requirement and can be found when you're desperately looking for a place to hide something. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 19:02:37 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:02:37 -0000 Subject: Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136435 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kcrystalwolf" wrote: > Hi Everyone, > I just joined a few days ago. I have been reading many of your > posts.. there are a ton! And I have a few questions. Where do we > see.... "what Dumbledore gathered from the smoke tendrils is that the > soul piece in Harry is divided from Harry's soul." Geoff: First, welcome to the madhouse. :-) I think your reference may be to the instruments in Dumbledore's office which he consults in OOTP. (OOTP "St.Mungo's Hospital" PP.415-416 uk edition) Can I refer you to a thread "The Smoke Serpent" which begins at message 79231? Crystalwolf: > My other question is, don't the pictures of Headmasters talk? Are > they a little piece of the headmasters' souls? The pictures of > Harry's parents don't talk, but the pictures on the walls at Hogwarts > often do. Geoff: Yes, they do talk. There are several conversations between Dumbledore and Phineas Nigellus in OOTP and some of the other Heads also comment on occasions. Again, there is a thread "Empty picture" which commenced at message 95040 which discusses, among other things, what the portraits are. If you follow this through - and there is a second thread "Portraits of the Founders" which is also involved - it may or may not help. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 19:09:14 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:09:14 -0000 Subject: "Mudblood" In-Reply-To: <000401c59920$68bc47e0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136436 Ffred wrote: "So can we calm down on the PC? Mudblood is used in the books and I don't see any need to sanitise it on the list. an unpleasant term to the protagonists, but as I said, they are fictional." Del replies: Shoot! I sent that message to the list by mistake. It was supposed to be a private message. I deleted it immediately, but obviously the Yahoo! mechanics worked against me. Well, anyway, since the subject is brought up, I might as well explain myself. Yes, the protagonists and the word itself are fictional. However, the *feeling* behind the word, the prejudice it represents, is something that is very real. And *that* is what some people who have been victim of prejudice react to. The pureblood ideology has its exact counterparts in the RW: Blacks and Jews, among other people, have been accused of having a dirty blood that polluted the blood of the good, white, Christian people. The terms "pureblood", "halfblood" and even "mudblood" have their exact equivalents in those two racist ideologies. So just because "mudblood" happens to be an invented word about an invented prejudiced ideology doesn't mean that it should be used indiscriminately IMO. Moreover, JKR clearly intends this word to create a reaction in her readers' mind. When one of her characters uses the word, it's supposed to make us think immediately "that character is not nice". So using the word casually in our discussions is not a good idea, because it's going to take away from its power of suggestion. Just my opinion, of course, and sorry for the mis-posting that started it all. Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 4 19:10:37 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:10:37 -0000 Subject: Harry is not Gryffindor's heir (was Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Morgan Adams > wrote: > > Morgan: > JKR has shot down that theory. Read the text of her Leaky > Cauldron/Mugglenet interview below where she states that Harry > is not the hair of Gryffindor: > > MA: What about Harry's family ? his grandparents ? were they > killed? > > > > JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. > > MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as > > well. > > JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah. > > > > MA: Another one bites the dust. > > > > --Morgan > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Julie: > I read that in the interview and again in this post. However, I > need help with something. Just how DOES this shoot down the heir of > Gryffindor theories? How does JKR's answer/backstory answer this? > I was confused by MA's follow-up question then and I still am. > Please enlighten! Geoff: I think it is only shot down in the sense that MA interpreted "the heir of Gryffindor" as being a lineal and direct descendant of Godric Gryffindor. It has been pointed out in the group previously that an heir does not have to be a blood relative. It can be a person designated by the holder of the estate or position. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 19:12:13 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804191213.49280.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136438 Geoff Bannister wrote: Crystalwolf: My other question is, don't the pictures of Headmasters talk? Are they a little piece of the headmasters' souls? The pictures of Harry's parents don't talk, but the pictures on the walls at Hogwarts often do. Geoff: Yes, they do talk. There are several conversations between Dumbledore and Phineas Nigellus in OOTP and some of the other Heads also comment on occasions. Juli: Just wanted to add a little thing: Portraits talk (like Headmasters, Sirius' mon, the Fat Lady and so on), but Pictures taken with a camara don't talk, they just move. Don't ask why, my guess is the portrait is done my a wizard/witch, and the Photograph is done by a machine Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elbarad at aol.com Thu Aug 4 19:23:41 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:23:41 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136439 Cheryl: I wonder if we will even know what happened to Eileen? Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. Im a Prince :) That is a very good point! Especially when you consider the description that is given of her on p 288 of HBP; "They waited and a moment later the vulture-like countenance of Madame pince appeared round the corner, her shunken cheeks, her skin like parchment and her long hooked nose illuminated unflattteringly by the lamp she was carrying." Rebecca From jmkearns at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 19:30:04 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:30:04 -0000 Subject: Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136441 Hey Crystalwolf, welcome :) (*wave*) I saw Geoff Bannister's response to your questions, but I noticed a couple of things weren't touched on: > Crystalwolf: > My other question is, don't the pictures of Headmasters talk? Are > they a little piece of the headmasters' souls? The pictures of > Harry's parents don't talk, but the pictures on the walls at > Hogwarts often do. It seems like an inconsistency to me. And JKR > says dead is dead, but how come there are some ghosts that are > "half-dead"? I realize this is a fantasy, but if you are looking > for it to make sense, some of those things just don't seem to. John K: I'll agree that some of this is hard to reconcile. The difference is that pictures - like those of Harry's parents and those Colin Creevey is famous for - are taken with a camera, while portraits come from... well, we don't know where, but somewhere else. But an important distinction is that portraits are *not* a piece of their soul; merely a 'shadow' of them in the same way that shadows of Harry's parents came out of Voldemort's wand in GoF. They share personality traits and appearances and so forth, but are not as close to the true person as are ghosts. Rowling talked about it in an interview, though I can't find the exact quote. And we don't know how many of a person's memories, emotions, or thought processes are retained in a portrait, though I'm guessing we'll get a glimpse at Dumbledore's new portrait in the next book. Ghosts, on the other hand, are indeed a piece of the wizard's soul (or perhaps the whole thing), retaining their full characteristics, memories, and thoughts from life - but you either become one or you don't, and for those who don't, dead is most certainly dead. We're supposed to find out what makes a person a ghost or not in the next book, as well. < I snipped the Horcrux question, because it's far less easily answered - not that I haven't tried in other posts :) > > Crystalwolf: > Someone has said there are seven books.. is that > correct? I have only recently heard that.. but it fits with the 7 > horcruxes thing. John K: There are indeed to be seven books, one for each of Harry's seven years at Hogwarts. Whether it's related to the seven Horcruxes we don't know, but seven seems to be a special number in the wizarding world, and it's also just the number of years required for secondary education, so it might be coincidence. Hope this is helpful, John K From elbarad at aol.com Thu Aug 4 19:07:48 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:07:48 -0000 Subject: So, are there 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136442 fanofminerva wrote: > We know LV wanted to split his soul 7 times. The question I have is > this: Did he intend to have 7 horcruxes, with the part of his soul > remaining in him being the 8th part of his soul? Or did he intend to > have 7 parts of his soul...6 in horcruxes and 1 in his body? Rebecca: Dubledore says LV's intention was to split his soul into 7, that is 6 horcruxes and the seventh part in himself (p470). > The second part of my question is this: Did he succeed in esatblishing > the last horcrux, or was he thwarted at Godric's Hollow? Well, Dumbledore suggests that he failed to create a horcrux that night (but that the creation of a horcrux had indeed been his likely intention) and so he created the final horcrux out of Nagini when he killed Frank Bryce at the Riddle's manor. My husband, on the other hand feels that Voldemort might have inadvertantly turned Harry into a horcrux when the spell rebounded. His reasoning being that Vlodemort had been preparing to create a horcux as he killed Harry, and whilst Harry was not killed the AK spell did infact 'kill' Voldemort and so the seventh of Voldemort's soul might have become lodged inside Harry instead of inside whatever object he intended to turn into the horcrux. This would explain how Harry has such a connection with Voldemort, can feel his moods and speak parseltounge etc. I hope that my husband is wrong, because if Harry is a horcrux then he'll have to die before Voldemort can be destroyed. Rebecca From elbarad at aol.com Thu Aug 4 18:55:22 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:55:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <20050804121150.2967.qmail@web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136443 Cat wrote: > > I don't think what Lupin says about himself is > ridiculous. They're all true. He is old for her, poor, > and could be dangerous. He's probably aging twice as > fast as a normal wizard, which means he won't live as > long. But being the selfless person that he is, he's > putting her happiness before his. He's thinking about > what's best for her, which you can't help but admire. I have to agree with you. I think Lupin is lovely and I do believe that he would feel he should keep himself as isolated as possible to keep those he cares about away from danger. I imagine that it would worry him constantly that he might transform and hurt the people he loves. The thought of killing Tonks or their children would be dreadful. (but I also agree that it does sound a bit whiney) , but > now that he's got a girlfriend, I don't see him dying. I hope that you are right. I have a nasty feeling about the significance of Peter Pettigrew's silver hand (silver being lethal to werewolves). If it's not in the story to kill Lupin then maybe it is there to be used against Voldemort in the repayment of his life debt to Harry. Let's hope eh? Rebecca From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 18:49:20 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:49:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks and real life experiences In-Reply-To: <080420051432.18796.42F226F3000088500000496C22058860149C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136444 guz: Wow, Lissa-- this is a great post. I'm going to try to cut it a bit for length in my response without losing content. > Lissa: > > What bothers me there is the throwback to the 1950s (her Patronus changing for him really sticks in my craw unless we find out 1.) his changed for her as well, or 2.) he saved her life or the change in Patronus relates to something in addition to simple love.). guz: I admit, I too find this a bit awkward. However, I rationalize it to myself by saying that it is serving several narrative purposes (showing that emotions affect magic ability, a clue to the mystery, and the opportunity for that wonderful little scene with her and Snape-- man, I think that comment about her patronus was one of the nastiest things we've heard him say-- and she's one of his former NEWT Potions students!) Lissa: I'm sorry, but the Tonks we met- and that I really liked- in OotP didn't come across as someone who would pine for a man for almost a year. guz: I agree that she is not the same person she was in OotP. The events at the end of that book hit her very, very hard. Lissa: And the fact it sapped her powers (as hinted at by the unrequited love sapping Merope of hers) REALLY bothers me. guz: It does me, too. And, regardless of Harry's little revelation in the hospital wing, I don't think that all of Tonks' behavior is supposed to be explained by the Lupin thing. She is having a very, very bad year. I'll detail that a few paragraphs down. Lissa: It also bothers me because honestly? I didn't really pick up on the fact I was supposed to be fooled by thinking Tonks was Draco's accomplice. I thought something might be going on, but Tonks was on the page so rarely that it didn't really work on me as a red herring- too much else was happening with more major characters. guz: Yeah, to tell the truth, I don't know what we were supposed to be supposing about Tonks. She's as much as a red herring as Bagman was in GoF (i.e. not very much of one). There are some flaws with the plot structure and pacing in HBP, (did we really need to hear about Slughorn's stupid pineapple candy 27 times?) but we have what we have. Lissa: > Now, I admit, as much as I vastly prefer Remus with Sirius (where I DID see a lot of canonical hints and a deep friendship that could be more) guz: I'm just going to say that I'm going to leave this issue aside. It's my opinion that the author did not intend the readers to think that Lupin and Sirius were anything more than friends, and even if, for some reason, she did: he's dead, Jim. Lissa: > I cannot believe from canon that they were to the point they were discussing marriage. guz: Bear in mind, Molly says many people are eloping and doing rash things because they are not sure they'll be alive much longer. It's a scary time for everyone. Lissa: As I said, there is absolutely nothing to indicate in OotP that they were more than friends- in fact, quite the reverse with the DoM battle and Lupin's reaction. And while OotP might have been overly long, one single sentence about how Lupin was kneeling by her side or started towards her or at least flicked his eyes to check if she was okay would not have added considerably to the length. (Neither would have switching the joint Christmas present from Remus and Sirius to Remus and Tonks.) guz: I agree with you-- I don't think there is any indication that they are more than friends in OotP. They are simply friends and fellow soldiers. There was definitely nothing going on with them at Christmastime, and I do believe that Lupin's attention at the final battle was 100% on Harry and Sirius. However, there's also no indication that Lavender and Ron ever even said "hello" to each other before HBP. Not that I'm comparing Won- Won to Lupin, I'm just saying that not all attractions start slowly and subtly. Sometimes they creep up on you. Sometimes they hit you like a ton of bricks. Lissa: I simply cannot believe he cared about her as anything more than a friend until the HBP timeframe. guz: I agree with you, and I don't think the author intended us to think that. *Possibly* something has happened between them in the time between the final battle, and when they see Harry off at the station, but there is no real indication of that. Lissa: > Then in HBP, he tells Harry he's been living underground with the werewolves. There's simply no time for him to be forming any sort of relationship where they're already at the marriage stage. Well, no. I do take that back. We don't know what he does after Christmas, and given that both my own grandparents and my husband's parents got married after 3-6 months of dating, perhaps there's time by other people's standards after Christmas, if he does not go back to the werewolves. (Course, it took me and hubby three years, so again, that Real Life experience ;) ) But although they've had this conversation "a million times", that's a.) obviously an exaggeration, and b.) the subject of the conversation- marriage vs. possible involvement- is not clear. Because of the timing, I would veer more towards possible involvement. guz: Besides the fact that Molly talks about people eloping (and the fact that she and Arthur eleoped), the other reason I'm suggesting they're talking about marriage and not just "a serious relationship" is that they *are* books aimed at children. I'm not making a moral judgement (I've been with my partner 7 years, and we're not married!), but I try to keep my opinions in the range of the probable as far as the published books go. This is another reason why I never considered Lupin and Sirius a possible couple. Was never going to happen. Like you said, that's what fanfic is for! Lissa: > As far as Lupin talking her down from survivor's guilt: given what we see of Lupin in OotP, both comforting Molly after she sees her boggart and talking to Molly on Christmas when Percy returns his jumper, this does not stick out at all to me. Lupin is a shoulder to cry on- it's a huge part of his character. I agree. It's not out of character. But I do believe that Tonks and Lupin seriously bonded over their mutual grief and survivor's guilt. > guz: > Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right after > it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics to > Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. > > > Lissa: > > Or those same lyrics can be interpretted as Remus's feelings for Sirius ;) But seriously, Remus doesn't mope during that song. Rather, that's when he snaps out of it and talks to Harry. guz: Actually, I just double-checked the text, and he snaps out of it about a page later-- when Harry is in much deeper conversation with Arthur. But, whatever-- it is a very subtle clue. Lissa: I need conformation from Remus himself, not from the circumstances. I need proof of interest from Remus. Like I said- it doesn't have to be much. guz: The proof, for me, is that he has been talking about this "a million times". Really. If it was really that he "just wasn't interested," it would not have gone that far. Lissa: Him correcting Molly instead of the other way around (or even looking guilty or flushed or something) would have helped out. But given the fact that Molly had to correct him on Tonks's whereabouts said to me that Remus didn't really care- he was too wrapped up in his own problems. guz: I think we have different interpretations of this bit. Molly is not- so-subtly telling him that Tonks is *purposefully avoiding* him. Explaining that she is *not* enjoying Christmas with her family. Not that I think Lupin is sitting there, thinking about Tonks the whole time. I agree with you, he is having a rough time with the werewolves. Lissa: > It does certainly seem that Molly and Arthur (and McGonagall) have known about this. But here's the other thing that really, really, REALLY bugs me about the hospital scene and just makes me not like how the ship was handled in general: guz: Let me just first say up front: the hospital wing scene is my favorite scene in the whole book-- and not just because of Lupin/Tonks. I love the whole thing! Lissa: > Remus has just lost Dumbledore. Even Harry notes that this is the strongest reaction he's ever scene from Remus, and he's distinctly uncomfortable, because he acknowledges that Remus is such a private person. And yes, I do believe Dumbledore's death hit Remus incredibly hard. Whereas when Remus lost Sirius, he was in battle and losing one person, with Dumbledore, he was losing his link to the world. Without Dumbledore, Remus does not have a champion that has power, and given all that Dumbledore has done for Remus.... His grief is completely understandable, and very raw in that scene. Additionally, Remus IS a very private person. To force a conversation about his love life in front of everyone- and then to have everyone say that he's wrong, that he shouldn't feel the way he does, that his reasons aren't valid (more on that in a second), and that he should capitulate and emotionally blackmailing him that Dumbledore would have liked it (I can see where it was probably meant as reassurance, but hey- I admittedly HATE this scene)- all that had to have been intensely humiliating for him. And he was right. It was not the moment for that discussion. I can't help but wonder why, if Tonks loves him like she says she does, she put him through that. guz: I agree with you-- Lupin is devestated by the loss of Dumbledore. I also think he is ready to rip his heart out over the fact that Snape betrayed the Order (as far as they know), especially after the speech he gave to Harry about Snape at Christmastime. He *is* extremely embarrassed by Tonks' outburst (he's extremely flustered and he can't even look anyone in the eyes) and it truly wasn't an appopriate time or place for Tonks to bring it up. However, I forgive Tonks for that, because she has been completely emotionally overwhelmed. You think Remus is having a tough year? Tonks, after being a bubbly fresh-faced, brand new auror and Order member in OotP, has been in a horrific battle with her aunt and uncles (Bellatrix, the Lestrange brothers and Lucius, respectively), was severely wounded, had her cousin (the one member from that side of the family who isn't trying to kill her) die, is having very visible problems with her magic ability (how does she explain that to her boss, I wonder?), is trying to keep up with the secret duties of the Order and her job as an auror, when people are dying or disappearing left, right, and center. All those people dying and disappearing: it is her offical job as an auror to be preventing this. And the aurors are losing that battle badly. And the people doing the killing: among them are her aunts, uncles and cousins. She has detached herself (I noticed that she called Draco "the Malfoy boy"-- he's her first cousin, she must know his name), but it still must be traumatic. And on top of all of this, she's having man issues! Yeesh! I also think that Tonks, like me, was touched by the beautiful scene between Molly and Fleur. I really loved that scene. So, I will forgive Tonks that emotional outburst. I've had more inappropriate emotional outbursts, myself! Lissa: And he does have valid reasons for not being willing to start a relationship. The too old thing isn't really one of them- for all that Remus is older, he's not as mature as fandom would like to think. (Really, cross-dressing Snape? The man's inner 12 year old is very much alive, thanks.) The too poor thing I'm in the air about. It shouldn't matter. It speaks well of Tonks that it doesn't matter to her. But it DOES matter to Remus, and if that's something -he- can't get over, I can understand that. guz: Yeah, Remus definitely has an issue with money and pride. Are we supposed to believe that no one has thought to buy him a set of new robes for his birthday or Christmas? And that Sirius didn't leave him *anything* in his will for no good reason? Remus *does* need to get over this. Lissa: And the too dangerous thing? That one he's completely 100% right. Aside from the werewolf thing, Remus is a dead man walking at the end of HBP. Between his fighting at the Tower and Snape's defection, the Death Eaters must know that Remus isn't on their side and has been among the werewolves as a spy. And look at Greyback's methods; he doesn't go after the person who offended him, but the people that person loves. Remus is truly dangerous at this point, and while Tonks can probably take care of herself, he's got a point. guz: Well, the entire wizarding population has been dead men/women walking for all of HBP. Remember Molly's clock? Everyone is in mortal peril. Tonks, as an auror AND Order member, is probably more capable than most people in defending herself. In fact, she, as an auror, is probably a huge target-- more so than Lupin. Lissa: > Now add to this Remus's greatest flaw: he likes to be liked. This is another thing I just can't reconcile so easily. Remus DOES like to be liked, and he's sold out before to get it. So why why WHY does it take him almost a year to give into Tonks if he's interested? Why does he fight it so hard? Possibly because of the above reasons- like I said, they're extremely valid. Perhaps he wants to protect Tonks. But if he loved her, it would make sense he'd give in much sooner than this. guz: Nah, he's been giving Tonks Harry's "I'm a loner Dottie, a rebel..." speech. I don't think Lupin has any problems with being liked, it's being loved that's freaking him out. And I honestly think that until Tonks, Lupin had never considered that he could have a relationship with a "normal person" -- his words. Lissa: (And maybe he did on some level. My personal theory- which I know JKR's not doing but I like it much better- is that he slept with her not long after Sirius died and then backed away, and it kind of messed with her head.) guz: Here's where you and I agree! Or at least they snogged. Lissa: But there's a line that also really stands out to me, and that's when Remus says he must be grateful. He's talking about Snape making the potion, but I kind of think, given the treatment he endures, Remus must be grateful for anything he recieves. guz: He's got a big inferiority complex. Look how he calls the werewovles who steal and kill his "fellows" and his "equals". Lissa: It really kind of makes this relationship very hollow for me- and again, because Tonks begged. guz: She is begging him to stop being ridiculous and accept what he already knows to be true. Lissa: She loves him this much, she's willing to sacrifice... and he must be grateful for that. (Especially with everyone telling him that.) guz: Everyone doesn't tell him that-- he says that himself-- that he must be grateful for any crumb someone throws him. Harry argues with him about that exact point. Lissa: It just doesn't all add up to me, and I can't make myself believe that he's madly in love with her. guz: Here's the thing: he's not madly in love with her. I'm not even sure he's in love with her at all at that point. I believe he does love her, and is attracted to her. Relationships don't always start with two people madly in love with each other. Sometimes you have to work up to that. Especially since the indication here is that Lupin has never been in a serious romantic relationship. Lissa: > I also think that, because it IS such a small part of the books, JKR is not that great at writing serious romance. I mean, think about it. Even a lot of Harry/Ginny shippers aren't overly happy at the very glossed-over way the ship was treated. guz: I agree. She's not great at writing serious romance. I have to say, though, there are very few authors who are. Lissa: Which is fine... that's why we write fanfic. guz: Agreed! Lissa: And that's why I would have preferred- and bought- the more subtle approach to Remus/Tonks rather than the disaster of the hospital scene we were given. The melodrama was what put it over the top and made it completely unbelievable to me. guz: And here's where we agree to disagree! Like I said, I love the whole hospital scene -- it was probably one of my favorite scenes in the entire series. I do love melodrama, though! I admit it! Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my post! guz. From milcg at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 18:48:05 2005 From: milcg at yahoo.com (Mil) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:48:05 -0000 Subject: So, are there 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136445 Fanofminerva wrote: > > We know LV wanted to split his soul 7 times. The question I have is this: Did he intend to have 7 horcruxes, with the part of his soul > remaining in him being the 8th part of his soul? Or did he intend to have 7 parts of his soul...6 in horcruxes and 1 in his body? > > If he was thwarted, does he have 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? Of the horcruxes, 2 have been destroyed (the diary and the ring - Mil: LV intended to have 6 horcruxes... having the 7th part of soul in himself... Horcruxes: 1. Diary -- Destroyed 2. Ring -- Destroyed 3. Locket -- Taken by RAB (most probably Regulus A. Black) 4. Hufflepuff Cup -- Still missing 5. Antique once owned by Griffindor or Ravenclaw -- Most probably Ravenclaw's... Still missing 6. Antique once owned by Griffindor or Ravenclaw or (as some seem to believe) Harry himself or (as Dumbledore guessed) Nagini -- Undetermined Dumbledore believes LV was to create his 6th horcrux the night he intended to kill Harry, unsuccessful as it was, LV created his last horcrux when killing the man in the Riddle House at the beginning of GoF (I can't remember this poor man's name, sorry) and placing the last part of his soul in Nagini, leaving him (LV) with only the 7th part of his soul.... Hope this was helpful enough... BTW, has anyone yet discussed the possibility of Dumbledore being right about Nagini?? Mil -- Who also gets a bit confused at times... From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 19:45:22 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape as *also* the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: <004d01c598db$5f949540$6ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20050804194522.17138.qmail@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136446 Most of you who reply this thread is not really reading the actual theory. It is not to say Snape replaces Harry as "the chosen one", because Voldemort clearly *chose* Harry instead of Neville, hence Hary is the chosen/marked one. The theory is that, if you read the Prophecy carefully, it seems to state TWO persons who have power to vanquish dark lord. The Prophecy is break down into 5 lines: 1. The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... 2. Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... 3. And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... 4. And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... 5. The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... Both Line 1 and Line 5 stated "the one", why repeat twice if there's only the one? Especially when these two lines doesn't seem to be pointing to the same person because of its different grammar. The one in line 1 "approaches", he already exists. The one in line 5 hasn't set yet, but it 'will be born"...and it's not certain who yet because Dark Lord have to "choose" and "mark" this particular one. So line 2-3 describe what will happen to the one in Line 5. Line 4 is the ambiguous line, describing what? We don't know yet. So if we have Line 1: Snape the eavesdroper, and Line 5: Harry the one Voldemort chose. Then we have two "the one" and the Line 4 "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ..." can open to many interpretation if the 'either' and "each other" are referring to Snape and Harry (not Harry and Voldemort). Or, in Voldemort is involved, we can interpret it "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ..." in the context of three people. I like the prophecy ambiguous and a big twist to come, the current interpretation DD and LV made are too boring and predictable. D. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 19:57:44 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:57:44 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136447 > >>Leslie41: > Ooh, can't agree with that. Because Voldemort loathes weakness of > any kind, I don't think such an admission would comfort him at > all, especially from the individual that Narcissa claims as "the > Dark Lord's favorite." It's the other Death Eaters that suspect > Snape more than Voldemort at this point. Betsy Hp: By comfort, I don't mean Voldemort would be *pleased* that Snape took an Unbreakable Vow to protect Draco. And I'm quite sure that Snape realizes this. But Snape *does* want to protect Draco and he also realizes that Voldemort doesn't want Draco helped or protected in any way. Draco was assigned this mission as a punishment for Lucius. Draco is *expected* to fail, and he is expected to die. I think that by taking the Vow, Snape has given himself an out. He can now work to protect Draco and unless Voldemort wants to lose Snape as well, Voldemort will have to let Snape give Draco assistence. I doubt Voldemort would be pleased with Snape, but I think he holds humanity in contempt for their weaknesses. The fact that Snape has his own weaknesses would be expected on Voldemort's part. I imagine Voldemort feels he has a pretty good handle on his various Death Eater's weaknesses and uses them to keep everyone in line. So yes, in taking the vow Snape made a mistake and he'll be punished for it (if Voldemort is that angry) but since I think Voldemort expects mere humans to make stupid mistakes based on feelings, he won't kill Snape for it. > >>Leslie41: > Snape can't make such an admission to Voldemort. It smacks too > much of independent thinking. Voldemort does not want independent > thinking. And as for the idea that Snape did it out of mercy and > friendship...such concepts are not alien to Voldemort. They are, > however, abhorrent. Betsy Hp: But Snape *does* take the Vow. I can't think that he did it on Voldemort's orders. I also doubt Snape did it because he was moved by Narcissa's tears. And he certainly wasn't trying to impress Bellatrix. There has to be a reason Snape put himself into that position and what I'm currently coming up with is that by taking the vow Snape is putting himself into a position where he can protect Draco. What other reasons are there for Snape taking the Vow? (I ask that with genuine curiosity.) > >>Leslie41: > Voldemort doesn't take a mother's love--the primary human bond--as > any sort of reason for anything. Nor friendship. Nor mercy. > That's his *problem*. The only possible reason to disobey him, as > Snape points out, is a situation like Snape faced in GoF, where he > claims he arrived two hours late after being summoned, but only to > be able to remain as a spy at Hogwarts. > That's why the scene at Spinner's End is so powerful. Everyone in > that little room that feels like a padded cell, *knows* this. Betsy Hp: I absolutely agree. But I think that Narcissa hopes that by tacking on the end promise that Snape will finish the job if Draco fails, she'll save her own life. IOW, Voldemort will be angry with her, but he won't kill her. Or, to give Narcissa the benefit of the doubt, she's hoping to save Draco's life by assuring that even if Draco fails the job will get done. Again, I think they're trying to mitigate the degree of Voldemort's anger. Betsy Hp, hoping she's made some sort of sense 'cause she starting to confuse herself From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Aug 4 20:12:02 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:12:02 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136448 Rebecca: > > I hope that you are right. I have a nasty feeling about the > significance of Peter Pettigrew's silver hand (silver being lethal to > werewolves). If it's not in the story to kill Lupin then maybe it is > there to be used against Voldemort in the repayment of his life debt > to Harry. Let's hope eh? > > Rebecca Hickengruendler: Wormtail will not kill Lupin with his silver-hand. JKR said so during her long interview with Emerson and Melissa. The link to the interview is on both the Leaky-Cauldron and Mugglenet. It has three pats and I don't know anymore in which part she said it, but Lupin is safe (at least from the silver hand.) I hope Peter uses it to kill Fenrir. Fenrir is together with Umbridge the character who I found most despisable (even more than Peter, himself),and if Umbridge still wins, than only because she had more screentime. Hickengruendler From lealess at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 20:13:55 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:13:55 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136449 > Betsy Hp: > But Snape *does* take the Vow. I can't think that he did it on > Voldemort's orders. I also doubt Snape did it because he was moved > by Narcissa's tears. And he certainly wasn't trying to impress > Bellatrix. There has to be a reason Snape put himself into that > position and what I'm currently coming up with is that by taking the > vow Snape is putting himself into a position where he can protect > Draco. What other reasons are there for Snape taking the Vow? (I > ask that with genuine curiosity.) > lealess: I think he took the vow for two reasons: 1) a calculated gamble to find out more information about Draco's task, as part of his job as a spy; 2) genuine curiosity as part of his nature (trailing the Marauders, for example, if that is true, and willingness to explore beyond what the book says). lealess From rgillen33 at msn.com Thu Aug 4 20:10:33 2005 From: rgillen33 at msn.com (Rachel) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:10:33 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136450 > Betsy Hp: > But Snape *does* take the Vow. I can't think that he did it on > Voldemort's orders. I also doubt Snape did it because he was moved > by Narcissa's tears. And he certainly wasn't trying to impress > Bellatrix. There has to be a reason Snape put himself into that > position and what I'm currently coming up with is that by taking the > vow Snape is putting himself into a position where he can protect > Draco. What other reasons are there for Snape taking the Vow? (I > ask that with genuine curiosity.) Rae_nd: I read the final action of "Spinner's End" (one of my favorite all time HP chapters) as Snape being pressured into the Vow by Bella's suspicions. No matter where his loyalties lie, the questioning of his motives could be dangerous for him. Bellatrix' shock upon the completion of the Vow shows me that she may have to grudgingly admit that Snape is on Voldemort's side 100%. Rae_nd. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Thu Aug 4 20:30:07 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:30:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS & HBP (was I the HBP )(was Re: Snape's hidden plan?/) Message-ID: <15d.56163e18.3023d4cf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136451 In a message dated 8/4/2005 10:55:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, dimoffamily at centurytel.net writes: > Perhaps the Prince family was Pureblood and Snape, perhaps having > been looked down upon by the pureblood Prince family because of his > half-blood status and/or mistreated by his Muggle father did invent > this name to play up the Prince side of the family instead of his > Muggle father's name of Snape...or perhaps someone else originally > came up with this nickname as a way of trying to make Snape feel > better about this..."You're a half-blood Prince!"...sounds almost a > bit cutesy to me. I see it as a bit arrogant. Perhaps he was tagged with it as an insult along the lines of "Look, it's that Prince half-blood" or "that half-blood, Prince" and adopted it, as a slap to the Slytherin fanatics. It can't have been common outside his 'gang' because Lupin doesn't seem to recognize it. It isn't even a tag Lupin (whom JKR has listed as a half-blood himself) or, I suspect, the other Marauders would have used anyway. It is a bit odd, since his surname isn't Prince The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From magicalme9 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 17:29:07 2005 From: magicalme9 at yahoo.com (magicalme9) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:29:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's painting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136452 I don't know whether this has been discussed yet - haven't seen it, but if yes then please point me to the message. At the end of the book a painting of D appears in his (former) study. Couldn't the painting help Harry in book 7? How much of a wizard's knowledge and abilities get transfered to the painting? Isn't it possible that D's painting can talk to Harry and explain if Snape really killed him, how to go about the search of the Horcruxes etc.? The other paintings are able to communicate and to remember (e.g. Phineas Nigelus) stuff of their own lives. So are paintings sort of persons without the actual ability to do something actively, but with the ability to help and to communicate? And since D was such a powerful and famous wizard in what other institutions would his paintings hang as well? Any thoughts on this? Magicalme (who just came back from a 2.5 week holiday and tries to catch up on the 3000 or so messages posted since July 19th) From kawfhw at earthlink.net Thu Aug 4 20:34:21 2005 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (kawfhw) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:34:21 -0000 Subject: Book 6 in Vietnamese (request for help) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136453 I'm trying to find a place to buy a copy of Book 6 that has been translated into Vietnamese. An article that I read (http://thanhniennews.com/entertaiments/?catid=6&newsid=7688) indicates that the translation was completed. There is a young girl (refugee) from Vietnam that I know. She speak/reads little English, but has read all the HP books in the translated version. She hasn't been able to find a copy, and has limited internet access. I'd love to get it for her. Any help would be appreciated. From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 20:49:46 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:49:46 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" wrote: > Honestly, what does love have to do with it? People make mistakes, > whether or not they are loved, for complex reasons, or just by > accident. It is teaching morality, backed by love, that (hopefully) > prevents these kinds of mistakes, not love on its own. I think it has to do with the nature of what the DEs do. In the passage about Draco and Occlumency, Rowling describes Draco as someone who has been able to cut off his pity and his compassion--and this is what enables someone to become a Death Eater. Pity and compassion, both interpersonal qualities: something that one has for another, in other words. In Rowling's world, they seem to be essential components of love, that mysterious thing that forms the bonds between people and creates connections. Voldemort is the ultimate isolate--no lovers, no friends, no equals. He's even gone the further step and fragmented himself. In contrast, anyone who has been loved by someone has had a bond formed between them, and the foundations laid for understanding and treating another person with respect. To be capable of joining the DEs and carrying out what they do is to be capable of repudiating the humanity of others, and thus offending against someone who once recognized you as human, yourself. Perhaps, then, to focus as Draco has upon his own situation is to engage in love, but a very narrow one--for it's predicated upon a particular restriction of feelings. After all, Draco has two attempted murders upon his conscience, even if he cannot do the grand deed at the end. His motives throughout are self-preservation and saving his family, but he does not rate highly what damage he must do to others to accomplish this. Is Rowling saying that Snape should have known better? In a sense-- yes, yes she is. I think she's framing it as a conscious decision on his part to have gone against a fundamental human principle. -Nora notes that this one will be interesting to see play out From elbarad at aol.com Thu Aug 4 18:36:59 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:36:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Unforgivables (was Re: Ghouls and Inferni) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136455 Houyhnhnm102 wrote: Sacrificing himself (only if it cannot > be avoided) to save Draco is a blow against Voldemort in a manner > analogous to the way in which Voldemort's curse rebounded on him > because of Lily's willingness to sacrifice herself for Harry. I strongly suspect that Dumbledore's sacrifice will indeed become a blow to Voldemort, but I disagree that it be be due to the sort of protection that Lily left upon Harry. If it was that easy to protect someone by dying I feel it would be much more common (and remember it was rare enough that Voldemort was unaware of it). Lily was given a direct choice " I am going to kill Harry, stand aside and you shall live, if you stay there you shall die" sort of thing. Whereas Dumbledore's losing his wand because he stunned Harry instead of protecting himself (which I don't buy for a moment, incidentally - Dumbledore, even greatly weakened, would be more than able to do both) does not strike me as being the same sort of situation. I believe that Dumbledore's death will be more like a 'Ben Kenobi' sacrifice, more of a "Strike me down Darth and I shall become more powerful than you could ever imagine" sort of thing. I am certain that Dumbledore will still, somehow find a way to aid Harry, whether its his spirit, his essence or his memories in the pensieve, I can't imagine for a moment that we've seen the last of him. > BTW, Dumbledore says "By an act of evil--the supreme act of evil. By > committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart." He does not say by > the use of an AK and he specifies murder. (We don't have to get in to > euthanasia to find an example of killing which would not be murder. > One could kill in self defense or by accident) Dumbledore orders > Harry to feed him what he suspects may be a lethal, though slow > acting, poison. Is he thereby ordering Harry to tear his soul? It's a good theory, but Dumbledore tells Harry how Voldemort fails to apprectiate the strength of a whole, uninjured soul; "...He was in such a hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole." HBP p478 UK edition. So I doubt very much that Dumbledore would risk Harry's soul becoming mutilated too. What did strike me upon a second reading was the similarity that JKR used when describing Harry's reaction to having to forcefeed Dumbledore, and Snape's expression just prior to murdering Dumbledore; "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbldore's mouth and tipped it..." p534 "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched into the harsh lines of his face." p556 HBP It struck me that the expression on Snape's face as he killed Dumbledore was the same as the feelings that harry had when he gave the drink to Dumbeldore. I know I'm not the first to suggest this, but it did seem to be another indicator that Snape might have been acting under Dumbledore's orders. Rebecca From elbarad at aol.com Thu Aug 4 18:47:20 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:47:20 -0000 Subject: loose ends to tie up in HP 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136456 Oiboyz wrote: And though Harry can't even begin to match > Voldie's power in the magic arts, I bet he knows even more than > Voldie about Hogwarts, after years of exploring, mischief-making and > using the Map. That will be one advantage Harry has over LV, I dunno, I think that Tom Riddle must have done some pretty extensive exploring himself if he managed to find out how to get intot he chamber of secrets!! > another will be his purity of intention, which will make objects like > the Room of Requirement and the Mirror work for Harry and against > Voldemort. Harry's going to kick some serious Dark Lord butt and I > can't wait to read it! I hope that you're right. I have a nasty feeling that Harry will have to give up life to beat Voldemort. Although I will be very happy to find out that I am wrong. Rebecca From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 21:22:02 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:22:02 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136457 > > hg: > > Snape's birthday is January 9. > Christina: > We were talking about this a few days ago, and whoever it was that > started the thread (I'm so sorry I can't remember who it was!) said > that since the "dies" is metaphoric, the "born" could be also. As in, > a rebirth of sorts; As the seventh month *ends*, Harry enters the > world, Snape realizes that Voldy is going to go for the Potters, and > it snaps him out of "Death Eater" mode and sends him to Dumbledore. > This is, of course, assuming that Snape was honestly remorseful when > he approached Dumbledore and that it was the realization of Voldy's > interpretation of the prophecy that lead him to switch sides (and that > he actually *has* switched sides). Not totally out of the question, > IMO. hg: Oh, I see your point. Interesting. Although I like the "approaches" as Snape coming up to the door in that immediate sense, and I love a good metaphor, if I were to put Snape into the prophecy, it'd be elsewhere. The only place I see the possibility of three individuals is "either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives." Christina: > What I find interesting is the "power the Dark Lord knows not." > Someone before suggested Occlumency, and that got me to thinking- does > LV really know how good an Occlumens Snape is? He can't possibly. If > someone could tell if another person was using Occlumency, then they > could demand that the person "open their mind" to them until they > couldn't detect the technique being used anymore (and only then > believe what they say). So it must be impossible to detect whether > Occlumency is being employed or not...it'd be easy for both DD *and* LV to say, "Well, I *must* be a better Legilimens than he is an Occlumens, so no worries." hg: Again, I agree. I think he's used Occlumency to his advantage very well. It seems to me, though, that the prophecy and Snape are two separate conversations and not one, and I'll explain why. The metaphoric rebirth: compelling, but not convincing, to me, only because the last line of the prophecy reiterates the first two, as if to make no mistake that the first two lines are indeed the same person (approaches and born to parents and born as 7th month dies all applies to the one). Snape's Occlumency, while again compelling as a "power the Dark Lord knows not" (nor Dumbledore for that matter, perhaps!), I think is rather the device that has enabled him to get so close to both Voldemort and Dumbledore and simultaneously has led him perilously TOO close -- to both. It seems to me that the Unbreakable Vow that Snape took was a trap set by Voldemort, as if to force Snape's hand, and I get the sense that Dumbledore is forcing his hand, too. I think I've posted elsewhere about this (if not I've been thinking about it a lot) -- that Snape didn't know what he was Vowing to help Draco to do, until that moment on the Tower. When I think of the "power the Dark Lord knows not," I am reminded that Harry isn't afraid to die, and will willingly walk into the arena and fight, even if he is certain that he will indeed die. However, his purity of soul that Dumbledore talks about almost precludes Harry from AK'ing Voldemort, so another way of him "vanquishing" Voldemort, even at Harry's "hand," will have to come into play. (Because I can't make up my mind: is it Harry's wholeness of soul or his willingness to die that is his unknown power.) I'm definitely open to three individuals being in the prophecy; that fourth line almost necessitates three. But maybe a Horcrux of Voldemort is one of the three? hg. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 21:26:06 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:26:06 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly + Merope comments In-Reply-To: <12f.6284d768.302319da@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin at a... wrote: > > Now on to mothers...I wish to start with a spirited defense of Molly > Weasley, mother to Bill, Charley, Percy, Fred, George, Ron and Ginny. I beg to > differ with the many heated criticisms of her parenting on this forum. My problem with Molly isn't really about her general parenting skills or lack there of. I do think she is probably a darker/more poisonous character than you give her credit for but other than her treatment of Ron in GoF and her treatment of the twins in general I don't think I ever criticized her parenting. My problem with Molly stems from three things. 1. Her treatment of Arthur. It's deplorable in my view and undercuts his authority at every turn. Its amazing he can stand with his total lack of a backbone. 2. Her treatment of Sirius in OOTP. It was absolutely out of bounds and unforgivable in my view. To attack a man who had spent twelve years under torture for not being there for Harry when he is the sole reason Sirius managed to escape the inescapable in my view not just rude, but flat out evil. Maybe not Voldemort evil, but evil nonetheless. And she did it in his home in which she was a guest. 3. Her almost pathologically blind faith in Dumbledore. Lets not forget that it was crazy and wild Sirius with the poor judgement who ended up being proven more right about how to handle Harry by the end of OOTP and not Molly's blind acceptence of Dumbledore's instructions. > In the great tradition of mothers, Molly is fiercely protective of both her > biological children -- and her chosen child of the heart -- Harry. But it isn't her job to be fiercely protective of Harry. She can love him and be there for him when he needs it, but it was up to Sirius--as his actual guardian--to decide what was best for Harry, and she just shoved her way in, deciding that without any actual authority it should be her way or the highway when it came to Harry. She has every right to decide what information her underage children get to hear but she has no right to dictate what harry does. It was obnoxious and made her utterly unlikeable in my view. > I wonder how much of the criticism of Molly stems from the popular pastime > of blaming the mother for everything..and holding her totally responsible > (while holding dads to a much lower standard)..... I think that is deeply unfair. I do think that Fathers in HP get so far less dignity than mothers it isn't even funny. Why is the supposed perfect family got a father who is nothing more than a spineless 'yes dear' sort of man? Is the only good husband and father one who goes along with his wife all the time and lets her browbeat him in public? Why was it so important to tear down Harry's father figure by showing him as a bully while leaving his mother as a beloved saintlike figure with nothing so much as a pimple marring her perfection? I think the worst of all insult toward fathers was done in her most recent interview when she said that Lily was braver than james. So the single most selfless act that a father commits in the entire series (charging an unkillable monster to try and give his wife and child a chance to flee) is still overshadowed by his wife? Seriously, what kind of crap is that? You wanna talk about messages, skip H/G, what does this say about Rowlings thoughts of fatherhood? I personally think its outrageous. Seperate note: I saw in your post about mothers that Merope is to be pitied and is a sad, pathetic character. I would disagree. She is evil and pathetic, but definitely not to be pitied. Don't forget that she is basically a rapist. She used love magic to force herself on Tom Sr. What would be your reaction if Crabbe or Goyle used a love potion to have their way with Fleur? It's the same thing. My rant for the day, phoenixgod2000 From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Thu Aug 4 21:29:55 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:29:55 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136459 > The metaphoric rebirth: compelling, but not convincing, to me, only > because the last line of the prophecy reiterates the first two, as if > to make no mistake that the first two lines are indeed the same > person (approaches and born to parents and born as 7th month dies all > applies to the one). I do not think that the prophecy refers to three people -- only two: the One and the Dark Lord. My only question was if the prophecy was misinterpreted, and how it could be applied to someone other than Harry. Notice in POA, the prophecy also repeats in the last line. I think this is just a feature of Trelawney's prophecies, and is for emphasis. Cheryl From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 4 21:36:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:36:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Re: Harry and Ginny's romance: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136460 > > Del replies: > Why? Because it is in the WAY two people interact that you can > determine what kind of relationship they have and whether they are > happy together. > > I'll be blunt: many beaten wives claim to be happy, they claim to have a beautiful relationship (and very often they even *think* it), they can have an apparently very intimate and loving marriage. Sometimes they do show signs in public that something is not quite right, but it's most often what happens when they are ALONE with their partner that determines whether things are all right or not. Pippin: Ginny may have been able to hide her interest in Quidditch, but she wasn't able to hide her misery when she was in an exploitative relationship. Everyone noticed how pale, silent and unhappy she was in CoS. If she were acting like that now, I might need reassurance. Fortunately she isn't. I have to agree with Grindieloe that many of JKR's readers aren't interested in the mushy stuff for its own sake, and are perfectly happy to accept true love depicted as it is in fairy tales, without the gory details-- and by that I mean the gory details of handholding and cooing to one another, not sexual explicitness. As in many a tale, one kiss is enough. That's a stylized way of depicting a relationship, but as long as we know it's stylized, so what? The blazing look, I think, was Ginny's one test of Harry. She'd just cut across his proudest achievement, upstaging him as Seeker. A lot of young men would have been put out by that. Harry isn't. Ginny knows what it is to be in an exploitative relationship, remember, and we also know that she's alert now to the dangers of following instructions without knowing what they really mean, because she warns Harry about blindly following his potions book. I don't think we really need to fear that Harry is exploiting her, or that she would let him. If he was going to do that, he could have done it ages ago. We also know that Harry and Ginny spent a happy uneventful summer getting to be friends; we don't need to be told about it because, face it, that's not what most of us read a Harry Potter book for. Maybe you are looking for a different kind of love story than JKR is interested in telling. Harry, like it or not, has been cast in the role of an epic hero. The fate of an entire civilization now rests on his still-skinny sixteen year old shoulders. That's an absurd, fantastical premise, but once you accept it, then Ginny can't be the most important thing in his life, or he in hers. As Rick told Ilsa in 'Casablanca', the problems of two little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this world. If Harry and Ginny have to sacrifice personal happiness for the greater good, they will. That's what makes them heroes. .As far as showing rather than telling, if Harry needs Ginny at his side, then Jo has to show us that by having him fail without her. Meanwhile, Ginny's an *underage* girl. It would be wrong to have her run off with Harry or tie herself to a young man who isn't even going to be around for a while and who, unlike Krum, is going into peril. Harry's worries about Ron's reaction are meant to be comical, IMO. Subconsciously of course Ron has been shipping H/G for a while -- it's supposed to be funny that he doesn't realize it and Harry doesn't either. Emotional breadth of a teaspoon and all that. I agree that we aren't quite supposed to see H/G as lovers yet. Jo has a number of plot threads to manage and they all have to climax at the same time if the reader isn't to feel cheated. If Harry and Ginny's relationship peaks now, there won't be anywhere to take it in Book Seven. Del: > 16.9. "Maybe that's why I like you so much." The hero-worship is still there. Ginny likes Harry because Harry is a knight in shining armour. I don't consider *that* to be a sign of deep and mature love. Pippin: Except that now Harry really is a hero. He's not just famous for being famous any more. Ginny likes being with him even when he's not doing the hero thing, but she understands that the hero thing is more important than she is. It really can't be any other way. If she had doubts about him, they would only make her look petty and untrusting, because we know that Harry is a knight in shining armor indeed. We just have to accept that Ginny is perceptive enough to recognize Harry's true worth and has been all along. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 21:54:14 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:54:14 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Merope comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136461 Phoenixgod: My problem with Molly > stems from three things. > > 1. Her treatment of Arthur. It's deplorable in my view and undercuts > his authority at every turn. Its amazing he can stand with his total > lack of a backbone. Alla: I think as SSSusan pointed out to me, JKR actually may have taken fans criticisms of Molly misgivings to heart. :-) Have you seen much of Molly bickering with Arthur in HBP? I mean, I personally even prior to HBP did not held that against Molly, because I think that where it really mattered to him, Arthur is perfectly capable of holding his ground. I also loved that Molly said that she was proud of twins business talent ( paraphrase). Phoenixgod: > 2. Her treatment of Sirius in OOTP. It was absolutely out of bounds > and unforgivable in my view. To attack a man who had spent twelve > years under torture for not being there for Harry when he is the > sole reason Sirius managed to escape the inescapable in my view not > just rude, but flat out evil. Maybe not Voldemort evil, but evil > nonetheless. And she did it in his home in which she was a guest. Alla: THAT I have to agree with 100% unfortunately, but all characters have flaws, right? I think Molly's blind gealousy of the fact that Harry was much more attached to Sirius than to her covered her judgment on the matter. Phoenixgod: > I think that is deeply unfair. I do think that Fathers in HP get so > far less dignity than mothers it isn't even funny. Why is the > supposed perfect family got a father who is nothing more than a > spineless 'yes dear' sort of man? Is the only good husband and > father one who goes along with his wife all the time and lets her > browbeat him in public? Why was it so important to tear down > Harry's father figure by showing him as a bully while leaving his > mother as a beloved saintlike figure with nothing so much as a > pimple marring her perfection? I think the worst of all insult > toward fathers was done in her most recent interview when she said > that Lily was braver than james. So the single most selfless act > that a father commits in the entire series (charging an unkillable > monster to try and give his wife and child a chance to flee) is > still overshadowed by his wife? Seriously, what kind of crap is > that? Alla: I agree with you in general, but again I have to disagree on Arthur. When he wants to tell Harry about Sirius in PoA, he does, despite the fact that Molly does not want him to, when he wants to talk to Dursleys at the end of OOP, he does and Molly is basically quiet, deferring to him completely. Him, not Molly lectures Ginny about trusting the diary. We hear from him " you are talking to the man, who raised Fred and George" I think Arthur has more backbone than you are giving him credit for, personally. :-) But in general, I do agree with your rant, I think. :-) Just my opinion of course. Alla, who cannot believe that she sort of disagreed with Phoenixgod on something else other than Harry/Ginny topic. :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Aug 4 22:05:32 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:05:32 -0000 Subject: Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136462 > John K: >Rowling talked about it in an interview, though I can't find the >exact quote. And we don't know how many of a person's memories, >emotions, or thought processes are retained in a portrait, though >I'm guessing we'll get a glimpse at Dumbledore's new portrait in the >next book. > > Ghosts, on the other hand, are indeed a piece of the wizard's soul > (or perhaps the whole thing), retaining their full characteristics, > memories, and thoughts from life - but you either become one or you > don't, and for those who don't, dead is most certainly dead. We're > supposed to find out what makes a person a ghost or not in the next > book, as well. > Potioncat: Here is the interview. I don't think we should get our hopes too high for "seeing" Dumbledore in the next book. He'll be there, in the same way a portrait of a loved one would be on the wall, but this is what JKR said in 2004: ********************************************************************** http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 All the paintings we have seen at Hogwarts are of dead people. They seem to be living through their portraits. How is this so? If there was a painting of Harry's parents, would he be able to obtain advice from them? That is a very good question. They are all of dead people; they are not as fully realised as ghosts, as you have probably noticed. The place where you see them really talk is in Dumbledore's office, primarily; the idea is that the previous headmasters and headmistresses leave behind a faint imprint of themselves. They leave their aura, almost, in the office and they can give some counsel to the present occupant, but it is not like being a ghost. They repeat catchphrases, almost. The portrait of Sirius' mother is not a very 3D personality; she is not very fully realised. She repeats catchphrases that she had when she was alive. If Harry had a portrait of his parents it would not help him a great deal. If he could meet them as ghosts, that would be a much more meaningful interaction, but as Nick explained at the end of Phoenix?I am straying into dangerous territory, but I think you probably know what he explained?there are some people who would not come back as ghosts because they are unafraid, or less afraid, of death. ********************************************************************** Potioncat again: So at best, I would expect a scene the first few days after the incident. DD's portrait will wake up, look around and say something like, "If I'm up here, things must not have gone as well as I hoped." > John K: > There are indeed to be seven books, one for each of Harry's seven > years at Hogwarts. Whether it's related to the seven Horcruxes we > don't know, but seven seems to be a special number in the wizarding > world, and it's also just the number of years required for secondary > education, so it might be coincidence. > Potioncat: And the wizard of the month on JKR's site is the person who discovered the magical properties of the number 7. All this time I thought it was Elmo.... From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 22:39:00 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:39:00 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Merope comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136463 > Alla: > > I think as SSSusan pointed out to me, JKR actually may have taken > fans criticisms of Molly misgivings to heart. :-) Have you seen much > of Molly bickering with Arthur in HBP? True. And let me say for the record that despite my molly-hate, Mollywobbles was funny. I just hate the tendency of some writers to make strong female characters by making the males weaker. > Alla: > > THAT I have to agree with 100% unfortunately, but all characters > have flaws, right? I think Molly's blind gealousy of the fact that > Harry was much more attached to Sirius than to her covered her > judgment on the matter. Still, there are some flaws easier to overlook than others. Molly grates more than most. I'm still on the OOTP hate train with that one because now that Sirius is dead there isn't any way for her to treat him better or reconcile. > Alla: > > I agree with you in general, but again I have to disagree on Arthur. > When he wants to tell Harry about Sirius in PoA, he does, despite the > fact that Molly does not want him to, Maybe it was just the way I visualize the scene but it struck me as one of those things were Arthur was shaking like a leaf in *please don't let my wife find out* sort of way. Still, that could be my personal interpretion of the scene. I lost my copy of PoA and haven't read it in ages. > I think Arthur has more backbone than you are giving him credit for, > personally. :-) True, I just wish there were a few more scenes with takecharge! Arthur instead of hearing second hand about how his anger can be terrible to behold. > Alla, who cannot believe that she sort of disagreed with Phoenixgod > on something else other than Harry/Ginny topic. :-) We'll always have Snape :) And I haven't given up hope of getting you on the H/L love train. phoenixgod2000 From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Aug 4 22:43:22 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:43:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] My own hope for Book Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136464 You forgot neville, I think he would want to help too. I agree with you on the ginny thing. I think the only reason why she didn't do anything at the end of book 6 is because it was DD's funeral and it wouldv'e been wrong to make a big scene there. danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Aug 4 22:49:04 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:49:04 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Merope comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136465 Phoenixgod 2000: > > Still, there are some flaws easier to overlook than others. Molly > grates more than most. I'm still on the OOTP hate train with that > one because now that Sirius is dead there isn't any way for her to > treat him better or reconcile. > Hickengruendler: IMO, there were two scenes in OotP that hinted to them making up. First was the boggart scene, where Sirius saw Molly at her weakest. And more, he could identify with Molly there, which was IMO made clear in the scene, where he looked at the boggart of Harry's dead body for quite a long time. The second scene was after Arthur was attacked, when Molly thanked Sirius that he allowed them to stay, there. And it seemed very genuine. And after these two scenes, we never saw them arguing. True, we didn't actually see Molly apologiting, but neither did we see Sirius apologizing for telling Harry, that he was less like James than he thought. And I thought that was just as low as Molly's remark. (Well, to be honest, I was very shocked about Molly's remark that first time I read it, but while rereading not anymore, because I knew what Sirius would say to Harry later, and I thought a bottle of his own medicine just served him right. Not that that excuses Molly's words, though, but I couldn't help but thinking "Serves him right"). Hickengruendler From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Aug 4 23:05:36 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:05:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of Molly /Merope comments Message-ID: <1a9.3c8712c0.3023f940@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136466 Many people don't seem to touch on the point that molly was trying to make in oopt was that she felt sirius was treating harry like he was james. Molly thought and i agree that harry needed adults in his life not an adult that treated him like a brother. I will say yeah she went the wrong way about it, yelling at sirius and reminding him of being in azkaban the way she did. And yes she didn't have to take harry to her bosom, and treat him like her son. But it was something she chose to do. Remember she hates to speak ill of the dursely's in front of him. And i know that if my son came home with a friend like harry who had no mom or had lost both parents and lived in a place that didn't care for him as they should in regards to loving him. That boy would be calling me mom and when he had kids I would be their grandma, even though I wasn't related by blood. Molly isn't perfect. No one is. And I have just a question, when were fred and george ever direct in muggle baiting. i know some of the stuff they sold were used by draco and the deatheaters. But I can't recall where they deliberatley hurt someone and it was really bad and montague doesn't count. and neither does using first years to try their goods out on either. danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 23:16:38 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 23:16:38 -0000 Subject: If Harry is not a Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136467 And finally, getting down to the real question (and a really interesting one too- I'm surprised more people haven't given up their thoughts) that you posed in your original post, >Cindy: >So what IS it that is so unique and VALUABLE about Harry? Christina: Dumbledore does not say that Harry is unique and valuable, he simply says that Harry is *more* valuable than he is. I'm in the camp that thinks that Dumbledore's hand injury would have proved fatal eventually. If Dumbledore was already dying, then naturally he would be less valuable than the young-and-healthy Harry. Now Cindy again: At first I was really inclined to believe that Harry's scar was a horcrux. It hurt him so much, he shared Voldemort's feelings and impulses like a good little soul would. However, its just too pat. I like the idea that somehow during Voldemort's rebirthing that he summoned back a piece of his soul unknowingly, but then, that doesn't fit with the excelerated almost non-stop Voldemort/Harry connection in OoTP. So! And I hope I'm not boring people to death here... Dumbledore and Harry are at the entrance of the cave, DD refuses to let Harry shed his blood... pg 560 HBP AE "You are very kind Harry...But your blood is worth more than mine..." and pg 570 HBP AE "Why can't I drink the potion instead?" asked Harry desperately. "Because I am much older, much cleverer, and much less valuable," said Dumbledore. I get what you are saying Christina, that it's possible that Dumbledore knew his days were numbered so why risk Harry? Dumbledore says what he means, he doesn't play coy and he doesn't flatter for flattery's sake and in no way did we get any sense of Dumbledore giving up as in "I'm an old man and I've lived my life" even though we can see him preparing Harry for such an event. He was asking for Snape until the end, and one would presume it was for his skill in bringing him out of the effects of the potion--but circumstances changed dramatically. But I think its more than that--whatever is special about Harry is either symbolic or literally concerns his blood--it's what sets Harry apart from anyone else taking on Voldemort, including Dumbledore. It's more than his desire to revenge his parents, more than being capable of forgiveness of evil, more than having physical protection in his blood because he no longer has that. Blood is a theme and important to the ending no doubt...mudblood, pureblood, halfblood, Harry's blood. What ever it is, it is something Dumbledore does not possess, and that is saying a lot. From RoxyElliot at aol.com Thu Aug 4 23:23:59 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:23:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of Molly + Merope comments Message-ID: <20a.6788353.3023fd8f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136468 <<1. Her treatment of Arthur. It's deplorable in my view and undercuts his authority at every turn. Its amazing he can stand with his total lack of a backbone.>> Wow, I see this from a totally different perspective. It seems to me that Molly always has to be the bad guy when it comes to the kids. Much as I like Arthur I wish that he'd back her up more on things. To my eyes he often comes off as an unsupportive husband and co-parent. <<2. Her treatment of Sirius in OOTP. It was absolutely out of bounds and unforgivable in my view. To attack a man who had spent twelve years under torture for not being there for Harry when he is the sole reason Sirius managed to escape the inescapable in my view not just rude, but flat out evil. Maybe not Voldemort evil, but evil nonetheless. And she did it in his home in which she was a guest.>> Again I see things differently. Sirius and Molly both rubbed each other the wrong way. Neither one of them were at their best around the other. And Molly had some good points about Sirius wanting a brother and friend more than he did a Godson. <<3. Her almost pathologically blind faith in Dumbledore.>> This is true of almost everyone in the Potterverse though. IMO everyone came to rely far to much on DD. <> Well actually the Dursley's are Harry's gurdians. But really can't you understand why she felt the way she did? The Weasleys have taken Harry into their family. And yeah at that point Molly had been a lot more involved than Sirius had. 15 is a weird age in teenage terms. Adults don't always know how to treat you. I love how Rowling portrayed both Harry at that age as well as how the adult around him reacted. As far as the story Molly and Sirius make excellent foils. What was best for Harry probably lies somewhere in the middle. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Aug 4 23:24:58 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 23:24:58 -0000 Subject: Fred and George (was: In defense of Molly) In-Reply-To: <1a9.3c8712c0.3023f940@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nrsedany2be at a... wrote: Danielle: > > And I have just a question, when were fred and george ever direct in muggle > baiting. i know some of the stuff they sold were used by draco and the > deatheaters. But I can't recall where they deliberatley hurt someone and it was > really bad and montague doesn't count. and neither does using first years to try > their goods out on either. > danielle > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hickengruendler: I'm not sure, but I think what was meant was them giving Dudley the Ton-Tongue-Toffee. Sure, Dudley is rather nasty, but still. I'm torn about this scene. On the one hand, it was clearly comic relief, therefore I suppose I just should laugh about it. However, just imagine what would have happened, if Dudley had eaten the Toffee after Arthur had left. He probably would be dead by now. Sure, JKR directed the story a way that nothing serious would happen to Dudley, but obviously that's not an excuse for Fred and George. They don't know that they are part of a story, after all. From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Aug 4 23:27:52 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:27:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fred and George (was: In defense of Molly) Message-ID: <1a5.3bef6e4b.3023fe78@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136470 ok i didn't think of the dudley scene, but that was one incident and molly did get mad. I can't think of any others. And besides I'm sure dudley deserved it anyways. I think fred and george thought he would eat it right away while their dad was still there. I think they were hoping they could be there to watch. danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lealess at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 23:29:33 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 23:29:33 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" > SNIP > Pity and compassion, both interpersonal qualities: something that one > has for another, in other words. In Rowling's world, they seem to be > essential components of love, that mysterious thing that forms the > bonds between people and creates connections. > SNIP > To be capable of joining the DEs and carrying out what they do is to > be capable of repudiating the humanity of others, and thus offending > against someone who once recognized you as human, yourself. > SNIP > Is Rowling saying that Snape should have known better? In a sense-- > yes, yes she is. I think she's framing it as a conscious decision on > his part to have gone against a fundamental human principle. > > -Nora notes that this one will be interesting to see play out lealess: Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. I can see where empathy is part of love. But I do not believe it is enough on its own. I wonder if Snape ever learned to trust anyone? With all the love in the world, if he does not trust it (due to abusive family background or bullying or friends turning their back on him or employer-employee relationship), love will do absolutely no good, really. lealess From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Aug 4 23:37:41 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:37:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fred and George (was: In defense of Molly) In-Reply-To: <1a5.3bef6e4b.3023fe78@aol.com> Message-ID: <00f901c5994d$83015000$3121f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 136472 ok i didn't think of the dudley scene, but that was one incident and molly did get mad. I can't think of any others. And besides I'm sure dudley deserved it anyways. I think fred and george thought he would eat it right away while their dad was still there. I think they were hoping they could be there to watch. danielle Sherry now: And besides, in defense of my favorite twins, they didn't do it because Dudley is a muggle, so it's not muggle baiting. As they said, they did it because he's a great bullying git, or words to that effect. they'd have done the same, I think, if Harry's cousin was a wizard child. Sherry From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 4 23:58:38 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 23:58:38 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly + Merope comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin at a... wrote: > > > > Now on to mothers...I wish to start with a spirited defense of > Molly > > Weasley, mother to Bill, Charley, Percy, Fred, George, Ron and > Ginny. I beg to > > differ with the many heated criticisms of her parenting on this > forum. > > My problem with Molly isn't really about her general parenting > skills or lack there of. I do think she is probably a darker/more > poisonous character than you give her credit for but other than her > treatment of Ron in GoF and her treatment of the twins in general I > don't think I ever criticized her parenting. My problem with Molly > stems from three things. > > 1. Her treatment of Arthur. It's deplorable in my view and undercuts > his authority at every turn. Its amazing he can stand with his total > lack of a backbone. > > 2. Her treatment of Sirius in OOTP. It was absolutely out of bounds > and unforgivable in my view. To attack a man who had spent twelve > years under torture for not being there for Harry when he is the > sole reason Sirius managed to escape the inescapable in my view not > just rude, but flat out evil. Maybe not Voldemort evil, but evil > nonetheless. And she did it in his home in which she was a guest. > > 3. Her almost pathologically blind faith in Dumbledore. Lets not > forget that it was crazy and wild Sirius with the poor judgement who > ended up being proven more right about how to handle Harry by the > end of OOTP and not Molly's blind acceptence of Dumbledore's > instructions. > > > In the great tradition of mothers, Molly is fiercely protective of > both her > > biological children -- and her chosen child of the heart -- Harry. > > But it isn't her job to be fiercely protective of Harry. She can > love him and be there for him when he needs it, but it was up to > Sirius--as his actual guardian--to decide what was best for Harry, > and she just shoved her way in, deciding that without any actual > authority it should be her way or the highway when it came to Harry. > She has every right to decide what information her underage children > get to hear but she has no right to dictate what harry does. It was > obnoxious and made her utterly unlikeable in my view. > > > I wonder how much of the criticism of Molly stems from the > popular pastime > > of blaming the mother for everything..and holding her totally > responsible > > (while holding dads to a much lower standard)..... > > I think that is deeply unfair. I do think that Fathers in HP get so > far less dignity than mothers it isn't even funny. Why is the > supposed perfect family got a father who is nothing more than a > spineless 'yes dear' sort of man? Is the only good husband and > father one who goes along with his wife all the time and lets her > browbeat him in public? Why was it so important to tear down > Harry's father figure by showing him as a bully while leaving his > mother as a beloved saintlike figure with nothing so much as a > pimple marring her perfection? I think the worst of all insult > toward fathers was done in her most recent interview when she said > that Lily was braver than james. So the single most selfless act > that a father commits in the entire series (charging an unkillable > monster to try and give his wife and child a chance to flee) is > still overshadowed by his wife? Seriously, what kind of crap is > that? You wanna talk about messages, skip H/G, what does this say > about Rowlings thoughts of fatherhood? I personally think its > outrageous. > > Seperate note: I saw in your post about mothers that Merope is to be > pitied and is a sad, pathetic character. I would disagree. She is > evil and pathetic, but definitely not to be pitied. Don't forget > that she is basically a rapist. She used love magic to force herself > on Tom Sr. What would be your reaction if Crabbe or Goyle used a > love potion to have their way with Fleur? It's the same thing. > > My rant for the day, > > phoenixgod2000 My advice to you is: stop beating around the bush! Just come out and say what you mean! Stop being so diplomatic... Sorry, but I totally disagree with "Molly's treatment of Arthur" as browbeating or disrespectful. They have spirited arguments -- I believe that their argument in the GoF where they are debating whether to tell Harry is a wonderful example of mature adults who love each other and respectfully disagree. Arthur goes ahead and warns Harry about Sirius. Arthur has plenty of influence on decisions. He goes ahead and has the muggle surgeon stitch his wounds -- Molly was right and angry -- but that didn't stop him. I am involved with a partner who is very glad to let me make all kinds of little decisions about the daily life but has a core of iron when it comes to big decisions. Different relationships play out differently? Vis a vis Molly's treatment of Sirius? Evil? Molly feels strongly that the way to protect the kids is to keep them out of the line of fire. She doesn't think Sirius is too responsible a godfather. I LOVE Sirius, and I would probably do the exact same things if I were in his position. But Molly and Hermione do have a point. He was alone too long. He was affected by his time in Azkaban. Staying inside his old home is driving him to drink... He gets mad at Harry for refusing to break the rules, and compares him unfavorably to James...a low blow. I think people are putting too much weight on James' bad treatment of Sirius. Sure Lily is heroic and selfless, but we don't know her bad points yet. Everyone has them in the Potterverse...even DD! Even HP!.. We'll find them out later. Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 00:00:22 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:00:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136474 zgirnius wrote: > > I found this to be the single most problematic action in the book, > personally. You consider the explanations you've seen presented here > lame. Do you have a better one? > > Preemptively, I would like to point out the three word annswer "Snape is evil" is not the answer to every question about Snape. I am quite willing to entertain the idea that Snape is evil, either a loyal DE, or in it for himslef somehow, and evil. The problem is that Snape is not stupid. > > An evil Snape who cares about noone/nothing but himself ought not > take a UV to protect Draco. Why risk his own life in this way? > > An evil Snape who serves Voldemort especially has no reason to take > this vow. Yes, it is a vow to do something Voldemort greatly desires. But Snape can certainly carry out the act without making the Vow. By its nature the Vow limits the actions Snape can take. For two > examples: if Draco were to attempt a suicide-style attack on DD, > Snape would actually have to protect Draco... for another, if Draco > made some hideously unsuccessful overt attempt on DD's life, Snape > would be compelled to step in right then. If he's evil, he's been > really quite fortunate in the timing of Draco's plan...Draco actually came out into the open at a moment when DD was incredibly vulnerable. Carol responds: My apologies if I'm misattributing the quoted post. It was unsigned. I agree that Evil!Snape is much too simplistic an explanation, and the Snape who's presented in this chapter is highly ambiguous. True, we see for the first time without Harry's preconceptions and prejudices coloring the narration, but we still see him from the outside. We are not privy to his thoughts. In fact, we are in exactly the same position as Bellatrix, who does not trust him, either. We don't know, to begin with, how much really knows about what the Dark Lord (to use his term) intends to do. He is playing a role he has played for a long time and is very good at, persuading people that he is on their side. He toasts the Dark Lord and drains his cup, clearly something that no Order member would do--unless his deep cover requires a false pledge of loyalty. He may have altered the vow silently in his mind: "(Death) to the Dark Lord" or "to the Dark Lord('s fall)." Or he may simply have intended the toast as another lie necessary to retain his position as (apparently) the Dark Lord's righthand man. Bellatrix is a murderous fanatic. It only makes sense to appease her, and that is how he begins. He tells her, to begin with, what he has told Voldemort concerning Quirrel, his absence from the graveyard, etc.--lies, truths, and half-truths--whatever is plausible. To this he adds that he helped to betray Sirius Black, but we know that he didn't recognize the great black dog as Sirius until the end of Goblet of Fire. More than likely it was Wormtail, who has spent the entire year preceding that incident in the company of Voldemort, who gave him that information. And we know that it was Kreacher who told Voldemort of the bond between Harry and his godfather. But Snape knows that Voldemort keeps secrets from even his most loyal followers, nor is Bellatrix, as Snape has carefully deduced, in a position to ask her master to confirm Snape's story. He adds for good measure that he passed information on Emmeline Vance that led to her death. We need not believe this story, either. Emmeline Vance was in the original Order, as we know from her presence in the photo in Order of the Phoenix (Am. ed. 174). Here, too, the probable source of information is Wormtail, who is also in that photo. Snape, who was spying for Dumbledore unknown to the members of the Order, is not. He also doesn't tell them that he is teaching DADA this year; he allows them to think that DD still wants him to teach Potions to keep him from falling back into his old ways. Knowing Snape's position as double agent, knowing his brilliant and logical mind and his capacity for deception, we should not take his words to Bellatrix as expressing the absolute truth regarding his loyalty and intentions, nor should we assume his guilt in the murder of Emmeline Vance. Snape says that he knows what Voldemort wants Draco to do, and he may know that Voldemort wants the cowardly and not exceptionally talented boy to kill Dumbledore, but Snape, who is fully aware of Dumbledore's towering intellect and great power, may find it difficult to imagine such a scenario even coming about. I personally think that he's bluffing at first, but later uses Legilimency on the uncharacteristically vulnerable Narcissa and realizes what Draco's task is. One thing he clearly does not realize, or he would not have (futilely) attempted to use Legilimency on Draco to determine it, is that Draco is supposed to fix the broken vanishing cabinet and allow Death Eaters into the castle. All he knows for certain is that Voldemort has assigned Draco a dangerous task that Narcissa is sure will lead to his death. If he also knows that the task is to Kill Dumbledore, he certainly views it in the same light Narcissa does, as beyond Draco's power. Having carefully presented persuasive evidence that he is on Voldemort's side and therefore on theirs, he turns from Bellatrix to Narcissa, who unlike Bellatrix appears to be his friend. Whatever else he may be, Snape is a man, and the sight of a beautiful woman in tears, particularly a proud and arrogant woman now kneeling in front of him and begging for his help, cannot possibly leave him unmoved. I think he is touched by pity for her plight and at the same time, less nobly but very humanly, proud and flattered. She has come to him to the half-blood Severus Snape who must teach for his living while she lives in luxury. Still, Snape is cautious and only promises to protect Draco and help him--"help" being open to a different interpretation than Narcissa places on it. He can "help" Draco by making sure that he doesn't come anywhere near Dumbledore. Snape, I think, is still not worried. Draco is not known for his courage, and his idiot friends will be little help to him. He will need the backing of Death Eaters, and Snape "knows" that Death Eaters can't enter Hogwarts. They can't apparate in, fly in, or Floo in. Dumbledore has placed Order members and Aurors around the school. Dumbledore dealt effectively with Fudge and the Aurors who came to arrest him. He fought Voldemort himself in the MoM. Dumbledore can deal with Draco, and Snape, meanwhile, can use his influence with the boy to try to dissuade or deter him, or failing that, trick him somehow. He is clearly not anticipating the Unbreakable Vow, but once Narcissa proposes it, he has no choice but to agree to it. Why not swear to do what he is already planning to do, protect and "help" Draco, and at the same time put an end to Bellatrix's suspicions? So, still in his role as DE and loyal Voldemort supporter, he tells the astonished Bellatrix to come forward and administer the vow. The first two provisions don't faze him. They are exactly what he is expecting and are unlikely to lead either to his death or to Dumbledore's. But the third provision takes him by surprise and his hand trembles within Narcissa's. Nevertheless, he cannot refuse to take this provision of the vow without violating the other two. Either Bellatrix or the vow itself will kill him. And so he does the only thing he can do. He says "I will," and sets in motion a train of events that he fears will lead to Dumbledore's death or his own or both. Whether he tells Dumbledore about this scene or not (and I think he does), the jinx on the DADA position has already struck. Whatever happens, Severus Snape will not return to Hogwarts the following year. Voldemort's vengeance has found its mark. Carol From davidm at mpks.net Thu Aug 4 19:04:41 2005 From: davidm at mpks.net (highlanderx54) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:04:41 -0000 Subject: Is DD dead? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136475 I was thinking about what DD said to Harry one time when Harry asked if LV was gone forever and DD said to Harry there are other ways that he can come back. I was wondering if anybody else thought that maybe DD knew of ways to come back. Just a thought. Also I do think that SS was trying to still teach Harry at the end of HBP because he surely could have killed him or taken him back to LV. "highlanderx54" From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 00:33:50 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:33:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks and real life experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136476 > Lissa: > > I'm sorry, but the Tonks we met- and that I really liked- in OotP > didn't come across as someone who would pine for a man for almost a year. > > guz: > > I agree that she is not the same person she was in OotP. The events > at the end of that book hit her very, very hard. Marianne: How do we know this? Tonks appears to be her normal self at the end of OoP when the group meets Harry at the train station, complete with pink hair and a feisty addition to the warnings Moody etal. give the Dursleys about not giving Harry a bad time. Not that I'm saying that Tonks is not saddened by Sirius' death, but her appearance/attitude at King's Cross is completely in line with what we've seen of her throughout OoP. I'm not suggesting that she wasn't upset over Sirius' death, but she seemed completely Tonks-like at the station. (We have to assume she mourned Sirius, because, like so many of these secondary stories, we are told about it but do not witness the characters' actual behavior or hear their words.) Actually, I found part of the red herring bit about Tonks a little cheap, in the sense that part of the misdirection JKR threw at us about her depression/attitude change was toted up to Sirius' death, to the point where Harry wonders if she was in love with his godfather. But, no, most of this seemingly was Remus-angst. It bothered me that Harry seems to be the only person who has truly mourned Sirius. And I find that sad. > guz: > > Besides the fact that Molly talks about people eloping (and the fact > that she and Arthur eleoped), the other reason I'm suggesting > they're talking about marriage and not just "a serious relationship" > is that they *are* books aimed at children. I'm not making a moral > judgement (I've been with my partner 7 years, and we're not > married!), but I try to keep my opinions in the range of the > probable as far as the published books go. This is another reason > why I never considered Lupin and Sirius a possible couple. Was never > going to happen. Like you said, that's what fanfic is for! Marianne: I think the "they're children's books" is a non-starter. JKR has said more than once that she's writing for herself, and not gearing her story to please any particular segment of the book-buying public. And it's always struck me as odd that the books can include things like multiple murders, some of which happen on-screen, grave- robbing, self-mutilation, lying, cheating, rule-breaking, violence, stories of government corruption, but, that they would stop short of even a hint of homosexuality, because that's just way too controvesial. You may be perfectly right about that, guz, but, if JKR is shying away from this because of controversy, then that's really unfortunate. > Lissa: > > > As far as Lupin talking her down from survivor's guilt: given what > we see of Lupin in OotP, both comforting Molly after she sees her > boggart and talking to Molly on Christmas when Percy returns his > jumper, this does not stick out at all to me. Lupin is a shoulder > to cry on- it's a huge part of his character. > > I agree. It's not out of character. But I do believe that Tonks and > Lupin seriously bonded over their mutual grief and survivor's guilt. Marianne: Could be. I'd buy that. Too bad we didn't see a hint of it, though. > > guz: > > Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right > after > > it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics to > > Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. > > > > > > Lissa: > > > > Or those same lyrics can be interpretted as Remus's feelings for > Sirius ;) But seriously, Remus doesn't mope during that song. > Rather, that's when he snaps out of it and talks to Harry. > > guz: > > Actually, I just double-checked the text, and he snaps out of it > about a page later-- when Harry is in much deeper conversation with > Arthur. But, whatever-- it is a very subtle clue. Marianne: This speaks to how people interpret what they've read. If you are one who has seen Remus/Sirius subtext in previous books, you'll read this scene entirely differently than if you don't buy that subtext. And, after the hospital scene, I have to believe that JKR intended this as Remus thinking about Tonks. But, again, since she apparently wanted to play this as a surprise twist in hooking up R/T, it didn't really work for me. > Lissa: > > I need conformation from Remus himself, not from the circumstances. > I need proof of interest from Remus. Like I said- it doesn't have > to be much. > > guz: > > The proof, for me, is that he has been talking about this "a million > times". Really. If it was really that he "just wasn't interested," > it would not have gone that far. Marianne: I think he's simply not going to argue the "million times" with Tonks. I think Lissa's point about is well taken. With whatever Remus has been doing with the werewolves, it doesn't seem that there has been a lot of time for him to spend with Tonks. I read this "million times" thing as a subtle hint of her immaturity compared to his. I'm not saying that she's acting like a kid or that she is not an accomplished witch in her own right for her age and what she has been doing. But I can't see that they've spent all this time together. I see her falling into hyperbole because she's been beating her hands bloody on this particular door, and he keeps not giving her the answer she wants. > Lissa: > > > It does certainly seem that Molly and Arthur (and McGonagall) have > known about this. But here's the other thing that really, really, > REALLY bugs me about the hospital scene and just makes me not like > how the ship was handled in general: > Remus has just lost Dumbledore. Even Harry notes that this is the > strongest reaction he's ever scene from Remus, and he's distinctly > uncomfortable, because he acknowledges that Remus is such a private > person. And yes, I do believe Dumbledore's death hit Remus > incredibly hard. Whereas when Remus lost Sirius, he was in battle > and losing one person, with Dumbledore, he was losing his link to > the world. Without Dumbledore, Remus does not have a champion that > has power, and given all that Dumbledore has done for Remus.... His > grief is completely understandable, and very raw in that scene. > Additionally, Remus IS a very private person. To force a > conversation about his love life in front of everyone- and then to > have everyone say that he's wrong, that he shouldn't feel the way he > does, that his reasons aren't valid (more on that in a second), and > that he should capitulate and emotionally blackmailing him that > Dumbledore would have liked it (I can see where it was probably > meant as reassurance, but hey- I admittedly HATE this scene)- all > that had to have been intensely humiliating for him. And he was > right. It was not the moment for that discussion. I can't help but > wonder why, if Tonks loves him like she says she does, she put him > through that. Marianne: Amen to all that! > guz: > > I agree with you-- Lupin is devestated by the loss of Dumbledore. I > also think he is ready to rip his heart out over the fact that Snape > betrayed the Order (as far as they know), especially after the > speech he gave to Harry about Snape at Christmastime. He *is* > extremely embarrassed by Tonks' outburst (he's extremely flustered > and he can't even look anyone in the eyes) and it truly wasn't an > appopriate time or place for Tonks to bring it up. Marianne: Which again spoke to a certain level of immaturity on Tonks' part to me. Which, in this case is actually a good thing, because I do think she was speaking from her heart. If she had staged that outburst in an effort to force Remus to face the situation, I'd really hate her. guz: > However, I forgive Tonks for that, because she has been completely > emotionally overwhelmed. You think Remus is having a tough year? > Tonks, after being a bubbly fresh-faced, brand new auror and Order > member in OotP, has been in a horrific battle with her aunt and > uncles (Bellatrix, the Lestrange brothers and Lucius, respectively), > was severely wounded, had her cousin (the one member from that side > of the family who isn't trying to kill her) die, is having very > visible problems with her magic ability (how does she explain that > to her boss, I wonder?), is trying to keep up with the secret duties > of the Order and her job as an auror, when people are dying or > disappearing left, right, and center. All those people dying and > disappearing: it is her offical job as an auror to be preventing > this. And the aurors are losing that battle badly. And the people > doing the killing: among them are her aunts, uncles and cousins. She > has detached herself (I noticed that she called Draco "the Malfoy > boy"-- he's her first cousin, she must know his name), but it still > must be traumatic. And on top of all of this, she's having man > issues! Yeesh! Marianne: Sure, she's having a tough year, but I don't know that we can boil this down to who's having a harder time. She's battling her family, but are they that important to her? Has she had interactions with them, or has she been pretty much separated from them all her life because her mother had the temerity to marry the wrong kind of man? I'm not convinced Tonks is suffering from family angst with regards to the actions of the creepy side of the Black family. Tonks at least has a place in Wizard society. It's Remus' second go- round fighting evil, and he can be pretty sure that no matter what he does, however bravely he fights or however much effort, strength and blood he sheds in this battle, no one will thank him for it or even stop to consider that maybe werewolves are part of humanity. > Lissa: > > > Now add to this Remus's greatest flaw: he likes to be liked. This > is another thing I just can't reconcile so easily. Remus DOES like > to be liked, and he's sold out before to get it. So why why WHY > does it take him almost a year to give into Tonks if he's > interested? Why does he fight it so hard? Possibly because of the > above reasons- like I said, they're extremely valid. Perhaps he > wants to protect Tonks. But if he loved her, it would make sense > he'd give in much sooner than this. > > guz: > > Nah, he's been giving Tonks Harry's "I'm a loner Dottie, a rebel..." > speech. I don't think Lupin has any problems with being liked, it's > being loved that's freaking him out. And I honestly think that until > Tonks, Lupin had never considered that he could have a relationship > with a "normal person" -- his words. Marianne: Again, I'm not sure here. Remus thought he'd never have friends, and he found three people who accepted him and undertook dangerous magic to try to help him. Granted, there was probably an element of danger and rebelliousness and "aren't we so clever to have figured out this Animagus thing?" going on, but Remus knows that people have accepted him before. On the other hand, Remus has also lost these three friends, so he may very well be extremely hesitant to allow anyone else to get that close to him again. > Lissa: > > It really kind of makes this relationship very hollow for me- and > again, because Tonks begged. > > guz: > > She is begging him to stop being ridiculous and accept what he > already knows to be true. Marianne: She is pleading, but, I'm still left with the picture in my head of Remus at his wits' end on how to make it clear to her that this is not really what he wants. > Lissa: > > She loves him this much, she's willing to sacrifice... and he must > be grateful for that. (Especially with everyone telling him that.) > > guz: > > Everyone doesn't tell him that-- he says that himself-- that he must > be grateful for any crumb someone throws him. Harry argues with him > about that exact point. Marianne: Yes, everyone in the hospital wing is not telling him to be grateful, but they are certainly telling him to give it up and, as Molly says, stop being ridiculous. So, he does have a roomful of people who are essentially telling him that he's wrong. And, just as an aside, I'm sure I'm just getting way too cynical in my old age, but when McGonagall uttered that line about Dumbledore would have been happy to know that there was a little more love in the world, I absolutely cringed. I mean, it's a nice sentiment, but somehow the delivery made me think "Is the guy from Hallmark in the room taking notes?" Marianne From leslie41 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 00:34:18 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:34:18 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > But Snape *does* take the Vow. I can't think that he did it on > Voldemort's orders. I also doubt Snape did it because he was > moved by Narcissa's tears. And he certainly wasn't trying to > impress Bellatrix. Not "impress" so much as "convince". And it isn't just Bellatrix that's to be considered here. He tells her "You can carry my words back to the others who whisper behind my back..." If it were just Bellatrix to be considered, I don't think he would care. But he's smart enough to realize that Bellatrix, by virtue of her sacrifice and loyalty to Voldemort, has a cachet within the Death Eaters that he does not. You see by the end of the novel that Snape has indeed become the acknowledged leader of the Death Eaters. In the absence of Voldemort they do what he says without question. So that much has been accomplished by the Unbreakable Vow, among other things. > There has to be a reason Snape put himself into that > position and what I'm currently coming up with is that by taking > the vow Snape is putting himself into a position where he can > protect Draco. What other reasons are there for Snape taking the > > Vow? (I ask that with genuine curiosity.) I personally think he wasn't aware of the construct of the task for Draco when Bellatrix and Narcissa arrived. And when he offers to help it's his way of getting an "in" on the situation with Draco at Hogwarts, to better have an excuse for keeping an eye on him. Narcissa brings up the Unbreakable Vow, which truthfully I don't think Snape was thinking of at that point. But when she mentions it his face is "blank, unreadable." He's thinking. And he agrees, because I think he knows it's the only way to accomplish what he needs to accomplish--to secure the trust of the Death Eaters, through Bellatrix, and to allow him to pry with Draco. He understands at that moment that he might have to kill Dumbledore. But I think he also understands that Dumbledore himself would have--at that moment--agreed and encouraged him to take the vow to accomplish just what the vow accomplishes. If Snape still is working for the Order (I think he is), his ascent in HPB, the total trust he attains, makes him more valuable to the Order than he ever has been in the past. More valuable, even, than Dumbledore, who is even at the beginning of the book not long for this world. Leslie41 From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 00:59:31 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:59:31 -0000 Subject: Slughorn - hiding more than meets the eye? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136478 This is a post for Dave, no Snape!! I've been thinking about dear old Slughorn and wondering if there is more to him than meets the eye. Here are a few questions I've asked myself? Why is Slughorn so afraid at the beginning of the book that he has spent a whole year in hiding. This is a man whose whole life is built around socialising with the rich and famous, being connected, pulling strings etc. Here is a man in fear of his life. Why? Is the conversation with Tom Riddle about Horcruxes enough for him to be now in fear of his life? If it is, then was he in hiding for the whole of Voldemort's previous reign of terror? It doesn't appear so from later evidence. So what else is he hiding? (All quotes from the UK editions) The chapter entitled Horace Slughorn in fact gives us quite a lot interesting information and leaves me with a lot of questions!! 1) How did DD know where to find Slughorn? Slughorn was not expecting him. 2) DD knew that the devastated house was not DE activity because there was no dark mark. When he mentions this to Slughorn, Slughorn says he forgot to do the mark. Do we assume that he therefore knows how to cast a Dark Mark. In GoF, p128, Mr Weasley says to Hermione, "it was only the Death Eaters who ever knew how to conjure it." But then on p73 Slughorn says `as I have never joined the Death Eaters, h-w-m-n-b-n can hardly count me a friend." Sounds as though he is debating whether Voldemort's vengeance will be increased, but it also indicates that he was not always openly anti- DE. 3) DD says p69 "So all these precautions against intruders, Horace are they for the Death Eaters' benefit, or mine?" We know that DD wants something from Slughorn, but the Horcrux memory would not put Slughorn in fear of his life from DD. Is DD being slightly sarcastic here, or is the question for real? On page 69 DD probes for reasons, suggesting that Slughorn's `considerable talents" would be a reason for the DEs to come `recruiting'. At this point DD does not know what the tampered- with memory contains, so I think he is trying to find out why Slughorn is so frightened. DD is wearing the Gaunt Ring when they visit Slughorn. Harry does not notice the ring at the Dursley's, but first notices it at Slughorn's, so DD has put the ring on especially for the visit. Now we know from the Sluggish Memory chapter (which is all DD knows at this point) that Tom Riddle was wearing the ring the night he asked about Horcruxes. Presumably DD is banking on Slughorn recognising it as Voldemort's. The ring is now cracked, having had Voldemort's soul surgically removed. We also know that DD has tried to get the full memory from Slughorn before. Is DD presuming that Slughorn will know that the Ring was a Horcrux, and by the cracked state of it, realise that it has been destroyed. Or is DD just putting pressure on Slughorn to reveal how much he knows about Voldemort's horcruxes? 4) Speculation time ? full of holes ? please feel free to pick. Voldemort knows that Slughorn must suspect him of having made Horcruxes ? in the plural ? because of the conversation. Now what's interesting here is that young Tom was confident that Slughorn would know about Horcruxes ? very, very dark magic. That Slughorn is a very talented wizard there is no doubt. For DD opinion see 3), then Draco says (HBP p301) that his grandfather said that Slughorn was the best potion-maker he'd known. Now, whoever stashed the false!locket found out about LVs Horcruxes and about the cave. It has taken DD nigh on 16 years to get to this point, the greatest living Wizard ? yet we are supposed to believe that RAB ? Regulus Black ? sorry, who? Managed to get there way before him. RAB, of whom we have never heard anybody speak of as having any talent whatsoever, but who gets a mention in Slughorn's despatches as the brother of Sirius (HBP p71). Whereas Sirius is called `a talented boy', no such praise for his brother Regulus. I'm very pulled to the opinion that Regulus was either someone's stooge, or took someone very talented with him. Regulus was probably a wizard of little talent, who was young and whose powers wouldn't register much in the boat. Whoever, stole the Horcrux!Locket was a really good potion maker, although I wonder where the ingredients to make the new potion came from?? The best potion makers we know are Snape, Slughorn and Lily. Now the note claims that RAB wanted Voldemort to know it was him that found out his secret. If RAB is a stooge, then the other person must be someone who actively does not want LV to suspect them and is prepared to give up the glory of having found out. This rules out Snape IMHO ? whose life is one long seeking for recognition ? but doesn't rule out Slughorn ? who always liked to take a back seat. If, however, Regulus took someone with him to help him, then it would have to be Slughorn and not Snape ? there is no way that Snape would be Regulus' assistant ? even if he was promised a pair of high heels and a bunny tail. Why might Slughorn have agreed to do this? To try and salve his conscience. Although there must be much more to it than that, Regulus might have gone to Slughorn for help, especially if Slughorn was not openly anti-DE and perhaps Regulus had been one of the Slug Club, coming from an influential family. This theory definitley needs a bung at this point - anyone got one to hand, we seem to be taking on some water. Anyway, carrying on regardless, Having done the dirty deed of stealing the Horcrux!Locket though, Slughorn would now have something even more dangerous to try and hide, which might explain his current behaviour. It still does not answer the question about how Slughorn/Regulus knew about the cave. Who knew about the cave??????? Never mind who knew about the Horcurxes (Start bailing water everyone) There is always the quote in GoF which sticks in the back of my mind, which could undo this plotting in the time it takes to say Sectumsempra ? GoF p562 Voldemort says to the returned DEs `And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" So did all the DEs know about the Horcruxes then? Then there is also the Felix Felicis potion. This potion takes 6 months to make (HBP p484), yet Slughorn had a little cauldron gently plooping in Harry's first lesson. He must carry it around with him. He also says he has taken the potion twice in his life, once aged 21 and the second time aged 57. Hmmm, what happened the second time. We know that he is younger than DD, we know that he started teaching around the same time as DD (HBP p82) Does anyone know when DD started teaching ? it must be over 55 years ago because he was a teacher when he went to Tom's orphanage, and Tom was 11. I could speculate that the second use that Slughorn made of the potion was the Horcrux recovery but that must have happened about 20 years ago, which would only make him 77 now, so he would have been under 22 when he started teaching. Hmmm not sure about that. (Or maybe he got the job on the strength of his first foray into FF!) I know that there are lots of holes in this, but is it worth taking anywhere? Saraquel From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 01:24:36 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 01:24:36 -0000 Subject: Nott & Zabini (was Re: Snape Moratorium) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136479 Potioncat wrote: > Let's try Theodore Nott. Who was surprised that Theodore Nott didn't > play a bigger role in this book? Or even that we never found out > about his father's injuries? > > Theo was vaguely described in OoP, even to point of pointedly not > being named by Hagrid; then was mentioned with Draco reading Harry's > accusation of their fathers. > > In HBP he's named (or not) under circumstances that tell us > 1) He isn't hanging out with the other Slytherins on the train. > 2) Because of his father's reputation, he isn't invited to join the > Slug Club. > 3) he isn't mentioned as being in Potions, but could be the 4th > Slytherin student. > > So does anyone think he'll play a part in the next book? > > We'll have to wait and see if he'll be: Nott,Important. > > Instead of Nott gaining importance, it's Zabini that gets page time. > We learn that Blaise is Black and that Blaise's mother is a widow 7 > times over. I wonder if all her husbands were named Henry and if > she's on the eigth one now? > > Potioncat, humming Herman's Hermits' "Henry the Eighth" I had exactly the same reaction to Blaise Zabini's mother:"I got married to the widow next door/ She's been married seven times before/ And every one was an "Ennery... Okay, enough on that! The problem with that reaction, which I hope JKR didn't intend, is that it makes Zabini's mother into an almost comic figure, whereas she's obviously a very sinister and dangerous femme fatale. She does, however, tie in with the mysterious powers of the number seven, which I suspect will play an important role in the seventh book (as JKR's new Wizard of the Month also suggests). I think Blaise's purpose in HBP (aside from appeasing fans who've wondered about him and disabusing them of their notions that he's going to be the Good Slytherin) is to show that Slytherins can be cold, arrogant, pro-pureblood bigots and still not be Death Eaters. (He's proud of his position in the Slug Club and looks down his aristocratic nose at Theo, who was excluded because his father is a Death Eater.) I don't think Blaise will prove important in Book 7, but Theo has been waiting in the wings since the first indirect reference to him as the "weedy" Slytherin boy who could see Thestrals. And he was important enough to JKR that she created an unpublished scene between him and Draco that she mentioned on her website. I think his absence from the scene on the Hogwarts Express is important. Although he does, IIRC, exchange sniggering glances with Draco in NEWT Potions, he is not his close friend and is not involved in Draco's desperate attempt to repair the vanishing cabinet. Why not? We know he's intelligent (he made it to NEWT Potions and JKR has indicated it on her site) and his father is a Death Eater. He doesn't seem to realize that Draco's father ordered the other DEs to abandon *his* father when he was injured in the DoM. Is Draco afraid that Theo will steal his "glory"? Is he unsure of Theo's loyalties because theo himself is not yet a Death Eater? We really don't know. Theo is a "weedy" or "stringy" and intelligent loner (shades of the young Severus Snape). His mother is dead (perhaps he saw her die since he can see Thestrals). His father, the oldest DE in the graveyard scene, seems to have been one of Voldemort's original followers, along with a Dolohov who may or may not be the sadistic Antonin, a Rosier who is probably the father of Evan Rosier, a member of Bellatrix's Slytherin gang who died fighting Mad Eye Moody and took off a chunk of his nose, and a Mulciber who may or may ot be the one who specializes in the Imperius Curse and was with Nott Sr., Antonin Dolohov, and Lucius Malfoy at the MoM (HBP 444). (On a side note, I think the Avery and Lestrange mentioned in Slughorn's memory are the fathers of the current Avery and of Rodolphus and Rabastan Lestrange, respectively.) What all this shows, apparently, is that DE membership runs in families, so the question of whether Theo Nott becomes a DE is, I think, significant. Blaise Zabini is not tempted by the proposition, but Theo might be. On the one hand, his father is one of the original Death Eaters, and he probably doesn't know how shabbily his father has been treated. On the other hand, his father is now either in St. Mungo's or Azkaban, depending on the extent of his injuries at the MoM. The prospect of such a future for himself, given his presumed talents and intelligence, probably is not appealing. A lot could depend on where and with the virtually orphaned Theo spent the summer between his fifth and sixth years. Like Draco and all the sixth years, he is still just sixteen when he returns to Hogwarts on september 1. Surely he has not been on his own all summer? If there's a character who can go either way, DE or not DE, a character who is less shallow than Draco Malfoy and whose choice will depend on more than vengeance against "Potter" and a badly distorted sense of family honor and the "glory" of recognition by Voldemort, it's Theo Nott. I don't think it's coincidence that we've been given a passing acquaintance with him, including the detail that he can see Thestrals. I wish we could have seen him interacting with Snape, but I suppose that would reveal too much about both of them. Carol, wondering if Theo writes improved formulas for potions or invented spells in the margins of his textbook From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Aug 5 01:46:28 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 01:46:28 -0000 Subject: Merope is pitiful was Re: In defense of Molly + Merope comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136480 > > Seperate note: I saw in your post about mothers that Merope is to be > pitied and is a sad, pathetic character. I would disagree. She is > evil and pathetic, but definitely not to be pitied. Don't forget > that she is basically a rapist. She used love magic to force herself > on Tom Sr. What would be your reaction if Crabbe or Goyle used a > love potion to have their way with Fleur? It's the same thing. > > My rant for the day, > > phoenixgod2000 So Romilda Vane is a rapist too for trying to give Harry a love potion? I absolutely think that Merope's use of the love potion was unethical and wrong. I do not believe it is ever right to coerce someone about romance, sex, and love. But I do believe Merope is pitiful. I do not believe that she is evil. Someone can do something wrong and still not be evil. Merope has been so mistreated as a child that I would doubt she has any real sense of right and wrong. Her father strangled her in front of two witnesses -- what does he do in private? He screams at her that she's a squib, that she's a "useless sack of muck", calls her a "pointless lump". He says "perhaps he'll (the man from the ministry) take you off my hands, perhaps he doesn't mind dirty squibs" "you filthy little blood traitor.", etc. This is clearly the way she is treated on a daily basis. Her brother is a truly scary character, singing to a snake and nailing snakes to the door. She is isolated. No one in the village talks with her. She unquestionably internalizes her father's viewpoint of herself. Her only dream of escape is the handsome Muggle riding past her door. Then she makes a great leap of hope and faith, and stops her control of him. She stops drugging him. He of course abandons her. She is reduced to utter abject penury, and has no where to go except to a muggle orphanage. She dies in abject poverty, grief, loss and dejection. Yes, she is indeed to be pitied. Susan McGee From ngermany at excite.com Fri Aug 5 01:13:32 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 01:13:32 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136481 Susanmcgee48176 wrote: > Sorry, but I totally disagree with "Molly's treatment of Arthur" as > browbeating or disrespectful. They have spirited arguments -- I > believe that their argument in the GoF where they are debating > whether to tell Harry is a wonderful example of mature adults who > love each other and respectfully disagree. Arthur goes ahead and > warns Harry about Sirius. Arthur has plenty of influence on > decisions. He goes ahead and has the muggle surgeon stitch his > wounds -- Molly was right and angry -- but that didn't stop him. Good post!! In regards to the Browbeaten Arthur theory, remember we only see glimpses into their lives. In book 2 Arthur came home in a pleasant mood after working all night and cheerfully joined everyone at the table for breakfast. (Curiously: What could keep him so busy that he comes in the next morning for breakfast (Book 2)? ) Not what I'd call browbeaten behavior. Molly was more pleasant then, too. It was in Book 3 with Sirius' escape with her stress levels increasing that Molly begins to grate on our poor nerves. Her treatment of the other characters was less pleasant from then on. In Book 6 she seems calmer. Worried, but calm about it. Married people go through phases or periods if you prefer. And each partner has her/his strengths that they contribute to the partnership. It's the ying and the yang of the relationship. From the little we've been given, it seems as if Arthur and Molly really do seem to take turns sharing the reponsibilities and providing leadership in their family. I'll give that Arthur could be around more. He works a lot of overtime. Perhaps employment is different there and he doesn't have the option to say no. Its very frustrating to come after working 8 or more hours to find your spouse totally losing it with your children. If Arthur did occasionally run away from the situation, and I don't see concrete evidence that he does, then I can't blame Him. I will be casting no stones here. Elizabeth From ongj87 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 00:30:59 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:30:59 -0000 Subject: Harry is not Gryffindor's heir (was Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: <20050804173758.72753.qmail@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136482 > Morgan here: JKR has shot down that theory. Read the text of her Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview below where she states that Harry is not the Heir of Gryffindor I quite agree with you. I highly doubt that Harry is the Heir to Gryffindor. Personally, I think it's Neville. But my argument is that Voldemort THOUGHT he was the Heir to Gryffindor. And for good reason too, considering the following info: 1. James and Lily retreated to Godric's Hollow. GODRIC'S HOLLOW. 2. James' family has a long pure blood line. 3. James' family was very wealthy, and the person who invented the Snitch was known to live in Godric's Hollow. This would explain how his family acquired his health, and his infatuation with snitches (Snapes' Worst Memory, OoP). If this inventor lived there, perhaps he had an estate there which has been passed down from person to person in the family. And perhaps this estate is where James and Lily took refuge at. - ongj87 From ramyamicro at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 21:56:20 2005 From: ramyamicro at yahoo.com (Ramya) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:56:20 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136483 I posted this at another forum and am posting it here too. Considering the abuse he endured, it is commendable that Harry is not bitter or hateful, but he knew that the Dursleys never loved him and he never longed for their love either. We see Harry loving his friends, his parents, godfather, mentors close to him(Dumbledore, Lupin), etc, but otherwise, he is like any other wizard/muggle. We don't see him showing unconditional love or compassion towards anyone like Dumbledore would. Harry is also capable of intense hatred- the minute he learns that Sirius Black was responsible for betraying his parents to Voldemort, and again in the Shrieking Shack, he wants to kill him. He feels nothing but hatred and loathing for Draco and Snape. He is ready to use unforgivables and dark spells. So, what makes Harry's capacity to love so great or any different from others? Rams From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 02:14:27 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:14:27 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Emma, Twists, and HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136484 A bit long, mostly about shipping, a little about Snape, and CONTAINS "EMMA" SPOILERS. Jane Austen is JKR's favorite author, and Austen's Emma, is her favorite book. She said: "Boquet, Tim. "J.K. Rowling: The Wizard Behind Harry Potter," Reader's Digest, December 2000 "I love a good whodunnit and my passion is plot construction. Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned," Rowling says, warming to her theme. "The best twist ever in literature is in Jane Austen's Emma. To me she is the target of perfection at which we shoot in vain." In the same interview: "She has never had a market in mind. `I started writing these books for me, but I really like my readers.'" In another interview: Assuras, Thalia. "J.K. Rowling Discusses the Adventures of Harry Potter," CBS News: This Morning, 28 June 1999 JKR:..."I think also I never had a target audience in mind. I wrote what I knew I would like to read and obviously, I'm 33, so hopefully that's why adults like it so much." Considering that Emma is her favorite book, it`s full of zigzagging shipping, and the twists in it are her target of perfection, I firmly believe JKR put one or more Emma-like twists in HBP, question is, where? If you look in Emma for the things that created the twists, and then look for the same types of things in HBP, I think that you will see only a few with Snape, but a wealth of opportunities in the shipping. I think this is the reason many readers think things are "off" in HBP. We also have to remember HBP had editors, some of whom are named at the end of the book, one being a continuity editor. We have to assume the editors questioned the things we see as being discontinuous, "off", or suddenly out of character, and that they were satisfied with Jo's explanations. On JKR's website: "Section: F.A.Q. Do you like `Half-Blood Prince'? I like it better than I liked `Goblet', `Phoenix' or `Chamber' when I finished them. Book six does what I wanted it to do and even if nobody else likes it (and some won't), I know it will remain one of my favourites of the series. Ultimately you have to please yourself before you please anyone else!" Some may say this refers to her thinking Ginny is the perfect girlfriend for Harry. I say it looks like what someone might say after having written a book full of misleading twists. Further, as a H/Hr shipper, I've been wrestling with why I didn't see R/Hr, and I'm afraid to say it, but still don't, and I'll tell you why. In the books only, without interview comments, I have come to the conclusion that Jo had the perfect optical illusion going in the shipping. People saw and were convinced of at least 2 very different things. H/Hr shippers looked at the trio's interactions through what I'm calling a Lofty Principles Filter, and therefore didn't see Hermione or Ron liking each other, because they took Ron`s "fraternizing with the enemy" comment to mean just that, and they took Hermione`s instances of being upset at Ron as being over the principle of the thing in each case. If you remove the Lofty Principles Filter, and replace it with what I'm calling a Jealousy Filter, you then see Hermione and Ron liking each other. But either way, you see Hermione being a devoted friend to Harry, and that they admire things in each other very much. Which puts them perfectly on the road to going the way of Emma and Mr. Knightly sometime in book 7, but more on that later. Jo's interview comments indicate the jealousy filter was the one to use. However, those comments don't look 100% foolproof to me. I think it's a possibility that Jo would like us all to be looking through the Jealousy Filter, because she's about to swap it in book 7 to reveal the twists. What else could she do? If the book Emma was published in parts, as HP has been, HBP would be the equivalent of the time in Emma when everything looks like it's going the wrong way. Breaking at that point, what kind of comments could an author make without giving away what she's up to? She'd have to give cagey answers, or misleading ones, as even refusing to comment might tip us off that something fishy is going on. The things that produce the twists in Emma include unfinished sentences and incomplete conversations that characters, and therefore readers, take one way and then in the end, learn meant something completely different. Another tool was characters misinterpreting the meaning of actions, and thereby misleading the reader. And then what I think was the biggest twist was the conversation and agreement between two characters, which we knew nothing about until the end, and which they hid completely by their behavior. You can see these tools in HBP in Snape and Dumbledore's conversations and interactions. But they are present even more in the shipping. I say the shipping optical illusion, being able to see things two ways, continues through HBP. Throw the twins and Slughorn's potions into the mix with the two filters, and I think Jo has achieved twists to make Jane Austen cheer from the great beyond. I agree that neither Hermione or Harry has shown romantic interest in the other so far. However, in Emma, Jo's favorite book, with the greatest twist ever in it, Emma and Mr. Knightly are platonic and cherished friends until the end of the book, when they discover romantic love for each other as well. Why shouldn't anyone think this could possibly happen with H/Hr? If either Ron or Hermione liked the other since the age of 13, there is a strong likelihood that wouldn't carry through until adulthood. If Ginny was star struck with The Boy Who Lived at age 10, and has never given up on him since, there is the possibility the hard blazing look is obsession, and also would be unlikely to carry though to adulthood. And an obsession, along with taking Hermione's advice to get Harry to like her, looks like a good explanation for her lack of emotion in breaking up with Michael and Dean - they were pawns in her master plan. Here's another quote from Edinburgh "cub reporter" press conference, ITV, 16 July 2005 "JK Rowling: I had the idea as I have said many a time before on the train, and I just loved the idea so much I couldn't wait to start writing it, which is the best. Iris Murdoch said writing was like getting married, you shouldn't commit yourself until you can't believe your luck. That is how I felt about Harry." I know she used Murdoch's quote in reference to publishing, but she must believe it in regard to marriage as well, no? I can't see Ron or Hermione "not believing their luck", but I can see it being the case with H/Hr if they develop romantic feelings for one another. I suppose H/G shippers will see it with Harry and Ginny, but why, oh why, were the rest of us not sold on that relationship? I suspect we are not being allowed to buy into it because it isn't going to last, somewhat as we were deflected from squeeing over Cho. In summary, Jo wants to write twists like Austen, her favorite book is full of shipping twists, and has platonic friends falling for each other at the end. HBP is full of potions and characters dropping old behaviors and taking on new ones, which are then not consistent throughout the book. I think there are lots of reasons to think the characters and shipping have been affected by potions and twists, and that is the reason for the weirdness that is HBP. -Pat From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 4 22:37:25 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:37:25 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: <20050801212929.7629.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, laurie goudge wrote: > > > > vmonte: > > > > > I hope that Snape was not "in lust" of Lily (I do not say love because I don't think he's capable of it). > > > > a_svirn: > > > > And what does it leave, I wonder? "The marriage of true minds"? > > who knows? maybe snape felt that way about lilly. I guess we will find out in book seven if that ever happened. > > laurie Pat: On my re-read of HBP, I noticed that whenever Slughorn praised Harry for something in potions, it was because he had used advice from the Prince, and also that Slughorn credited it to Harry having inherited his mother's talents for potions. This means something along the lines that Lily and Snape knew the same kinds of tips and tricks. What do you think that means? They were in the same year, so maybe they were lab partners in potions class? Did one learn from the other, and if so, which way? I was wondering if there was a possiblity that Snape asked Voldemort not to kill Lily went he went to kill Harry. If he liked her, maybe he asked to spare her as a reward for having given Voldemort the prophecy, and would try to get her on their side for her talent with potions. Voldemort uses rewards with his minions, but I think there would have to be something in the deal for him as well. -Pat From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 5 02:28:04 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:28:04 -0000 Subject: Slughorn - hiding more than meets the eye? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Now, whoever stashed the false!locket found out about LVs Horcruxes > and about the cave. It has taken DD nigh on 16 years to get to this > point, the greatest living Wizard ? yet we are supposed to believe > that RAB ? Regulus Black ? sorry, who? Managed to get there way > before him. RAB, of whom we have never heard anybody speak of as > having any talent whatsoever, but who gets a mention in Slughorn's > despatches as the brother of Sirius (HBP p71). Whereas Sirius is > called `a talented boy', no such praise for his brother Regulus. I'm > very pulled to the opinion that Regulus was either someone's stooge, > or took someone very talented with him. Regulus was probably a > wizard of little talent, who was young and whose powers wouldn't > register much in the boat. I don't think that is very fair to say that about Regulus - we don't know much about him, this is true. The only person who really had more than 2 sentences to speak of him was Sirius, and he didn't think much of him, because of the whole pure-blood beliefs and that Regulus became a death-eater - of course Sirius isn't going to be praising Regulus - hell, he doesn't praise Snape and WE know Snape is a very powerful wizard. However, Sirius does state that his family did say Regulus was a better son that Sirius. And Regulus did *smarted* up in the end, only to be *killed* (or not, as theories goes) by one of Voldemort's groupies. Slughorn only stated that "I got his brother, Regulus, when he came along, but I'd have liked the set" Of course there would be praise for Sirius(he was a talented boy) by Slughorn to Harry - Slughorn knew he was a pal of Harry's father - but Harry doesn't know Regulus from a hole in the ground. Slughorn doesn't mention James's talent, either - does that mean James wasn't worth Sluggie's attention - that he thought James was not up to par with Slughorn's standards? We know that James, thru his friends eyes, was a damn good wizard & a loyal friend. colebiancardi From sphause at earthlink.net Fri Aug 5 02:29:31 2005 From: sphause at earthlink.net (williamhause2000) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:29:31 -0000 Subject: Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136487 1 - Sirius will not come back. JKR said so in an interview! 2 - Dumbledore is dead. He will not come back. DDore had to die so that our hero (Harry) will be unprotected and succeed on his own. 3 - Harry will NOT die in book 7. DDore died in book 6 so that book 7 (and the series) can end on an up note. Ron, Hermionie and Genny will also not die. 4 - Snape is not a death eater. He Killed ddore on ddor's orders. Snape is on the most dangerous mission now that not even the good guys trust him. That is why he inistes that HE IS NOT A COWARD! 5 - Nevel will remeber where one of the Horcrux's is! His parents were tortured to get that info but they did not give in. Nevel can't remember things because he had a memory spell put on him. 6 - Book 6 was the greatest so far but book 7 will be much better! By by for now! From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 23:46:23 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 23:46:23 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136488 > Greenfirespike - > Although I personally don't like the idea that Lilly and Snape were > perhpas dating, that doesn't mean they didn't. Maybe, could be. School romances and crushes being what they are, or at least what they were when I was in school, they both could have crushed on each other, even if at different times. With all this talk about Lily and Snape, though, I keep getting the annoying impression of Hermione's date to Slughorn's Christmas party. She deliberately went with a guy who rubbed Ron the wrong way. She did have some problems with 'Mr. Giant Squid', but she also quite thoughtlessly dated him when she had no intentions of following through no matter what his true intentions. Could Lily have had a one-shot date with Snape later on, just to get James's goat? Ceridwen. From ramyamicro at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 21:29:56 2005 From: ramyamicro at yahoo.com (Ramya) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:29:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks, and RL experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136490 > Hickengruendler: > Wormtail will not kill Lupin with his silver-hand. JKR said so during her long interview with Emerson and Melissa. Rams: It was not in the Emerson-Melissa interview, though, but in one of the other interviews that happened that weekend. Link: http://www.madamscoop.org/bydate-2005.htm Hickengruendler: > I hope Peter uses it to kill Fenrir. Rams: Yes, I hope that happens too! And I think that Peter will not do it out of any compassion towards Harry, but it will happen by accident, and thus he will repay his life-debt. I also think he'll die. Rams From conquistas2000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 02:34:17 2005 From: conquistas2000 at yahoo.com (conquistas2000) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:34:17 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ramya" wrote: > I posted this at another forum and am posting it here too. > > Considering the abuse he endured, it is commendable that Harry is not > bitter or hateful, but he knew that the Dursleys never loved him and > he never longed for their love either. > > We see Harry loving his friends, his parents, godfather, mentors > close to him(Dumbledore, Lupin), etc, but otherwise, he is like any other wizard/muggle. We don't see him showing unconditional love or > compassion towards anyone like Dumbledore would. > > Harry is also capable of intense hatred- the minute he learns that > Sirius Black was responsible for betraying his parents to Voldemort, > and again in the Shrieking Shack, he wants to kill him. He feels > nothing but hatred and loathing for Draco and Snape. He is ready to > use unforgivables and dark spells. > > So, what makes Harry's capacity to love so great or any different > from others? > > Rams If you are to believe that it is love that would defeat LV, then Harry's love would have much more significance than another wizard's love. Plus I have a pet theory that Harry is a Horcrux, but with Lily's love to protect Harry from the ill effects of possesing 1/7 of Voldie's soul for 15+ years. and the same 1/7 sould of Voldemort's that is "corrupted" with love from Harry that will be Volermort's undoing. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 02:34:57 2005 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:34:57 -0000 Subject: So, are there 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136492 > Rebecca: > > The second part of my question is this: Did he succeed in > esatblishing > > the last horcrux, or was he thwarted at Godric's Hollow? > > Well, Dumbledore suggests that he failed to create a horcrux that > night > (but that the creation of a horcrux had indeed been his likely > intention) and so he created the final horcrux out of Nagini when he killed Frank Bryce at the Riddle's manor. > My husband, on the other hand feels that Voldemort might have > inadvertantly turned Harry into a horcrux when the spell rebounded. > His reasoning being that Vlodemort had been preparing to create a horcux as he killed Harry, and whilst Harry was not killed the AK spell did infact 'kill' Voldemort and so the seventh of Voldemort's soul might have become lodged inside Harry instead of inside whatever object he intended to turn into the horcrux. Jason: Was Voldemort killed though? That piece of his soul survived the 14 years as vapor. Only his body was destroyed. >.I hope that my husband is wrong, because if Harry is a horcrux then he'll have to die before Voldemort can be destroyed. > > Rebecca Jason again: Should Harry have to be destroyed even if he were a horcrux? The ring survived intact, afterall. :-) From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 02:35:52 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:35:52 -0000 Subject: Harry is not Gryffindor's heir (was Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > > Morgan here: > JKR has shot down that theory. Read the text of her > Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview below where she states that Harry > is not the Heir of Gryffindor > > No, in the interview only the fact that Lily had no ties to Gryphindor were addressed. Lily's geneology was talked about, not James Potters ancestry other than they are all dead. From drliss at comcast.net Fri Aug 5 01:41:00 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:41:00 -0400 Subject: SHIP:Remus/Tonks and real life experiences In-Reply-To: <1123190526.2683.50350.m34@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20050804205050.018f4ce0@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136494 And thank -you- right back for such a thoughtful response back! :) I'm not going to hit every point, because I think we differ on opinion as opposed to facts here. We both agree that Remus and Tonks are together in the end, and they probably weren't together in OotP. I'm not sure there's much more that can factually be argued ;) But there were a few points I wanted to keep discussing. >guz: > >I admit, I too find this a bit awkward. However, I rationalize it to >myself by saying that it is serving several narrative purposes >(showing that emotions affect magic ability, a clue to the mystery, >and the opportunity for that wonderful little scene with her and >Snape-- man, I think that comment about her patronus was one of the >nastiest things we've heard him say-- and she's one of his former >NEWT Potions students!) Lissa: Actually, I DO wonder about the narrative purposes. A Patronus changing- especially when the Order uses their Patroni to communicate- could conceivably be a major plot point, especially as Remus says it's an emotional upheaval that causes a Patronus to change, not a falling in love. Let's say- just for the sake of this argument- Snape isn't evil, and like Harry, he's Dumbledore's man, through and through. What happened at the end of the book certainly qualifies as an emotional upheaval for Snape. I can see the Order being contacted by a Patronus they don't recognize- perhaps another phoenix- because Snape's Patronus has changed. There's a valid reason later in the book for there to have been a Patronus change in this one, right there, and if that happens I'll totally shut up about the Patronus change! I can also imagine in my head and my own little universe that the Patronus change isn't necessarily a reflection of Tonks falling in love, but that Lupin really did something for her as a friend, which really either facilitated or accelerated her attraction. (::guilty look:: After all, I do write Remus's Patronus as Sirius's Animagus form. But that started before they got together, shortly after the Animagus transformation.) guz: >Yeah, to tell the truth, I don't know what we were supposed to be >supposing about Tonks. She's as much as a red herring as Bagman was >in GoF (i.e. not very much of one). There are some flaws with the >plot structure and pacing in HBP, (did we really need to hear about >Slughorn's stupid pineapple candy 27 times?) but we have what we >have. Lissa: Yup. I loved HBP- don't get me wrong. (Very possible to, because I like ranting about this particular subject and don't get into the debates on other subjects much.) But the whole book did have some problems with expository writing- almost like JKR really wanted to get it out. But, like you said, we have what we have. >guz: > >I'm just going to say that I'm going to leave this issue aside. It's >my opinion that the author did not intend the readers to think that >Lupin and Sirius were anything more than friends, and even if, for >some reason, she did: he's dead, Jim. Lissa: Before the Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview, I would have argued with you. And I do still think there's plenty of subtext there that you can make a fanfic work, and work EXTREMELY well and be canon compliant. But after the way JKR answered the godmother question (again!) in the interview- in terms of girlfriends- and the way she discussed Lupin and Tonks, and yeah, after she put Tonks and Lupin together in HBP, I'm firmly telling myself that it's something she never intended. I wish she had, because it's a fantastic love story. I give myself a 5% chance of being pleasantly surprised, but realistically? Yeah, you're exactly right. But even if I want to let myself read it that way, as you say, Sirius is dead. So the two aren't even in conflict anyway. >guz: > >Besides the fact that Molly talks about people eloping (and the fact >that she and Arthur eleoped), the other reason I'm suggesting >they're talking about marriage and not just "a serious relationship" >is that they *are* books aimed at children. I'm not making a moral >judgement (I've been with my partner 7 years, and we're not >married!), but I try to keep my opinions in the range of the >probable as far as the published books go. This is another reason >why I never considered Lupin and Sirius a possible couple. Was never >going to happen. Like you said, that's what fanfic is for! Lissa: I really, really hate to think you could be right on the part about her publishers, although after the no profanity bit, I'm not so sure. In a series where a seventeen year old is murdered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, explicit abuse is mentioned, and we have a pretty obvious metaphor for a child molester (really, could Greyback be more subtle?), the thought that two men in love is unacceptable is very sad to me. Especially since- even if it were to be canon- you never would have seen them having sex anyway, and besides, there's a lot more to any committed romantic relationship than just sex. Now. Let me demonstrate my skills at over-analyzation ;) One of the things I found very interesting about the interview was the transition in which JKR asked what the interviewers thought about Lupin/Tonks. She didn't bring it up during the shipping conversation. Instead, she brought it up after discussing Draco and the Death Eaters, talking about how something can look really attractive, and then you get involved and find out it's too much for you to handle. Right from there, she said "So what do you think about Lupin/Tonks?" Now, realistically, she's getting into some book 7 plot territory there (especially with good old Reg coming back into the picture), and said "hmmm... good time to change the subject!" But given what Tonks has gone through this year (I do agree with you on that, although more on that in a minute), and what what Lupin is and what his life is like, my little over-analyzing mind can draw a really interesting connection there, although that goes directly against her theme of Love Conquers All. (So I don't see it happening- Tonks dumping Lupin and going off with Charlie Weasley (which was always my pairing of choice but required them to, you know, MEET) because the relationship becomes too hard for her to handle. Which is kind of sad, because that did happen to me once, and the guy in question and I stayed very good friends. I'd love to see that happen realistically.) But like I said, over-analyzing is a good skill of mine. Impressed? :) guz: >The proof, for me, is that he has been talking about this "a million >times". Really. If it was really that he "just wasn't interested," >it would not have gone that far. Lissa: Sorry- I meant I needed confirmation before that. Some sort of hint. ANYTHING that worked for me. That's why that scene didn't work in my head- I couldn't believe HE had those feelings. guz: >I think we have different interpretations of this bit. Molly is not- >so-subtly telling him that Tonks is *purposefully avoiding* him. >Explaining that she is *not* enjoying Christmas with her family. Not >that I think Lupin is sitting there, thinking about Tonks the whole >time. I agree with you, he is having a rough time with the >werewolves. Lissa: I can see that interpretation... I just really wish she'd been a little more clear. ::Sigh:: Ah well. Like you say, we get what we get! >guz: > >Let me just first say up front: the hospital wing scene is my >favorite scene in the whole book-- and not just because of >Lupin/Tonks. I love the whole thing! Lissa: Actually, I do love the Bill/Fleur part, and Molly's turnaround when she sees that Fleur really does love Bill and will stand by him come what may. It's as soon as Tonks bursts out that the scene goes downhill for me. Now, I admit that there are two very personal reasons for this: 1.) As I said before, I've done the begging thing- and it hasn't worked. To me, Tonks's behavior comes across as begging, and it makes me distinctly uncomfortable. Bluntly put, it reminds me of things I've done when I was younger. (And okay, maybe there's some jealousy there, too. It NEVER worked for me- why should it work for her? But that's also what spurs my disbelief.) 2.) The intrusion of the others- especially McGonagall- just bugs me. Part of this is because I feel bad for Lupin. But part of this is, admittedly, I've read WAY too many bad fanfics with matchmakers and- even worse- teachers smiling indulgently at Sirius and Lupin as they make out in the hall because they're so happy to see them in love. ::gag:: This is NOT a fair criticism of JKR's work, because my reading is being colored by bad writing, and not anything that belongs to her, but it's a reason why that part just doesn't sit well with me at all. guz: >However, I forgive Tonks for that, because she has been completely >emotionally overwhelmed. You think Remus is having a tough year? >Tonks, after being a bubbly fresh-faced, brand new auror and Order >member in OotP, has been in a horrific battle with her aunt and >uncles (Bellatrix, the Lestrange brothers and Lucius, respectively), >was severely wounded, had her cousin (the one member from that side >of the family who isn't trying to kill her) die, is having very >visible problems with her magic ability (how does she explain that >to her boss, I wonder?), is trying to keep up with the secret duties >of the Order and her job as an auror, when people are dying or >disappearing left, right, and center. All those people dying and >disappearing: it is her offical job as an auror to be preventing >this. And the aurors are losing that battle badly. And the people >doing the killing: among them are her aunts, uncles and cousins. She >has detached herself (I noticed that she called Draco "the Malfoy >boy"-- he's her first cousin, she must know his name), but it still >must be traumatic. And on top of all of this, she's having man >issues! Yeesh! Lissa: I do agree that Tonks had some major issues and much better reasons to be depressed. It's just that the way it was handled read to me like "Okay, I've got my man, everything can be great again!" It might not have been the intention, but with so much of my attention focused on other parts of the plot, that's how it came across to me. The woman who lives next door to me (and who doesn't ship anything) actually told her nine-year old daughter "when you get interested in boys, don't act like Lavender or Tonks." That kind of summed it up to me! guz: >Yeah, Remus definitely has an issue with money and pride. Are we >supposed to believe that no one has thought to buy him a set of new >robes for his birthday or Christmas? And that Sirius didn't leave >him *anything* in his will for no good reason? Remus *does* need to >get over this. Lissa: Definitely. Although my theory on Sirius's will is he left everything to Harry to atone for his guilt, basically. He's been obsessed- and understandably so- with James's death and his role in it. I've seen the argument that Harry was already wealthy, but I don't think Sirius did it for Harry's benefit. He did it for his own. Anyway, that's my take on it. (And that it was easy.) But I was arguing this with one of my husband's friends, and we got on the subject- I said I thought it was odd. He didn't see anything weird about it. I asked him if my husband was in rags, and he had a small fortune, would he not leave ANYTHING to him? He snorted at me and said "I wouldn't let him be in rags in the first place." Good point. And one I think we both agree on there- Remus is the one being stubborn. guz: >Well, the entire wizarding population has been dead men/women >walking for all of HBP. Remember Molly's clock? Everyone is in >mortal peril. Tonks, as an auror AND Order member, is probably more >capable than most people in defending herself. In fact, she, as an >auror, is probably a huge target-- more so than Lupin. Lissa: Well, everyone is, but the difference with Remus is he has a specific enemy- and one he knows far, far too well. But yeah, Tonks is still a target on her own- with or without him. I do wonder how her parents would react to all this, though. "Mom! Dad! Meet my new boyfriend! He's 15 years older than me, doesn't have a job, and oh yeah! He's got this condition that makes him not only unemployable, but a social outcast! Isn't he great?" But then again, Andromeda defied her family and married Ted Tonks, so.... guz: >Here's the thing: he's not madly in love with her. I'm not even sure >he's in love with her at all at that point. I believe he does love >her, and is attracted to her. Relationships don't always start with >two people madly in love with each other. Sometimes you have to work >up to that. Especially since the indication here is that Lupin has >never been in a serious romantic relationship. Lissa: Okay- now THIS I can buy. And in fact, that's what the basis for the Remus/Tonks fic I should be working on right now is- that he's willing to try. But that definitely contradicts the idea that they're talking marriage. guz: >And here's where we agree to disagree! Like I said, I love the whole >hospital scene -- it was probably one of my favorite scenes in the >entire series. I do love melodrama, though! I admit it! > >Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my post! And yup- that's what this whole discussion is really coming down to- personal preference :) In things like relationships, an author ALWAYS has to be aware that personal preference and experiences are going to influence a reader's judgment on the relationship. I think that's why there's so many Harry/Hermione shippers- because in their experience, the relationship between Harry and Hermione can and/or should bloom into love. All in all, I do think one of the reasons there WAS so much shipping like activity in this book was because there won't be time for it in the next one! (Which is why I don't expect to despise Remus/Tonks in the next book, even if I'll still always wish it was Remus/Sirius in canon. But then, she would have needed to keep one half of the couple ALIVE, so.... ;) Can't have everything!) Lissa From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 02:36:41 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:36:41 -0000 Subject: Merope is pitiful was Re: In defense of Molly + Merope comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136495 > Susan McGee > So Romilda Vane is a rapist too for trying to give Harry a love potion? If she wanted to do more than steal a few kisses or hold hands with Harry then yes, as far as I'm concerned she would be. Love potions are the magical equivelent of the date rape drug and that just shouldn't be messed with. > Then she makes a great leap of hope and faith, and stops her control > of him. She stops drugging him. He of course abandons her. She is > reduced to utter abject penury, and has no where to go except to a > muggle orphanage. She dies in abject poverty, grief, loss and > dejection. > > Yes, she is indeed to be pitied. She has had any number of bad things happen to her, things that I wouldn't wish on anyone. But that is true of just about any evil person on the planet. There are very few people who are evil in a vacumn. I've done work with prison inmates in the past and I can tell you they are filled with stories just as dark as Merope's and they turned around and spread that darkness to other people just as she spread her own darkness to Tom Sr. She is sad, pathetic and weak. But so is just about every other evil person on the planet. phoenixgod2000 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 02:48:39 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:48:39 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136496 Ramya: > Considering the abuse he endured, it is commendable that Harry is not > bitter or hateful, but he knew that the Dursleys never loved him and > he never longed for their love either. > > We see Harry loving his friends, his parents, godfather, mentors > close to him(Dumbledore, Lupin), etc, but otherwise, he is like any other wizard/muggle. We don't see him showing unconditional love or > compassion towards anyone like Dumbledore would. > > Harry is also capable of intense hatred- the minute he learns that > Sirius Black was responsible for betraying his parents to Voldemort, > and again in the Shrieking Shack, he wants to kill him. He feels > nothing but hatred and loathing for Draco and Snape. He is ready to > use unforgivables and dark spells. > > So, what makes Harry's capacity to love so great or any different > from others? > Alla: I am going to try to answer. Just as you are , I find it commendable that with his upbringing Harry has ability to love at all, you know, not had been growing up in most loving environment. Of course Harry is not like Dumbledore - loving everybody and trusting everybody, giving people second chances ( even those who do not take those second chances :-)) Harry after all is still growing up, but I do believe that especially in this book he already shows the beginnings of compassion to his enemies simply out of compassion. Consider this quote: "She would not even stay alive for her son?" Dumbledore raised his eyebrows. "Could you possibly be feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?" "No," said Harry quickly, "But she had a choice, din't she , not like my mother" - HBP, p.262. To me it is fairly obvious, that despite his denial, Harry does feel bad for Tom's childhood. Does it mean that he wants to be Tom's best friend? Surely not, but to tell you the truth, I doubt I, as an adult would be able to feel ANY compassion for a person who killed my family member, no matter what pitiful childhood such person had. I do find what Harry feels to be quite unusual in a good way. It seems to me that in the future he could be like Dumbledore, if he survives of course. Oh, and I agree with you that he does not have very kind feelings towards Snape, which I again find perfectly understandable :-) But, are you sure that he feels only loathing towards Malfoy? "He despised Malfoy still for his infatuation with the Dark Arts, but now the tiniest drop of pity mingled with his dislike" - HBP, p.640 So, to make long story short, I am extremely pleased as to how JKR shows Harry's ability to love. It is nothing grand, or unusual at first sight, but I do think that Harry starts feeling empathy towards his enemies and THAT would indeed help him in defeating Voldie, NOT Snape's advice. :-) Just me of course, Alla. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 03:00:48 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:00:48 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136497 Carol wrote: Whether he tells Dumbledore about this scene or not (and I think he does), the jinx on the DADA position has already struck. Whatever happens, Severus Snape will not return to Hogwarts the following year. Voldemort's vengeance has found its mark. Marianne S: Carol made some excellent points... I can't compare, but I would like to add. Snape told the women that Dumbledore has suffered an injury, that is "reflexes" are not what they were. Of course, he does not tell them that it was he, Severus, who kept Dumbledore from dying as a result of the cursed ring, which means they also do not know that Dumbledore is after horcruxes. I agree with what Carol wrote about making the vow. Through legilimency, he was able to know what the task was, and of course it would be Dumbledore's will that he protect Draco as well. But to kill Dumbledore... of course he had to agree to that in front of the women. I wonder, then, could Dumbledore have already been dying? Could Snape have known that whatever was in that ring was, in fact, slowly killing Dumbledore? We know that Dumbledore is a very old man... we know he's not afraid of death... so I imagine, as Carol did, that Snape told Dumbledore of the vow. I would surmise that Dumbledore knew he had to die, something he was ready for... except for one thing. So Dumbledore had to teach Harry all Harry needs to know about Tom and his life/motivation for creating the horcruxes. Only through understanding our enemy can we best be prepared to defeat them. So I wonder... is Snape himself in on this plan? Surely if Harry is going to go after horcruxes that are guided by terrible, terrible poisons and curses... he's going to need The Half Blood Prince's wisdom with potions. Though, if the curse on the ring was powerful enough to basically Dumbledore's arm.. how IS Harry going to protect himself? Did Snape by any chance also make a vow to Dumbledore to help protect Harry? Or, is Snape ALSO after these Horcruxes? I also believe that Snape has to keep protecting Draco from Voldemort, as Voldemort would surely know that Draco showed "weakness" which we all saw as heart. Marianne S From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 03:03:52 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:03:52 -0000 Subject: Slughorn - hiding more than meets the eye? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136498 Saraquel said: I know that there are lots of holes in this, but is it worth taking anywhere? hg: Oho! Someone else interested in Slughorn! Very good, very good! I'll snip carefully, Saraquel, but there's so much to respond to... saraquel: > Why is Slughorn so afraid at the beginning of the book that he has > spent a whole year in hiding. This is a man whose whole life is > built around socialising with the rich and famous, being connected, etc...Is the conversation with Tom Riddle about Horcruxes enough for him to be now in fear of his life? If it is, then was he in hiding for the whole of Voldemort's previous reign of terror? It doesn't appear so from later evidence. ...DD says p69 "So all these precautions against intruders, Horace > are they for the Death Eaters' benefit, or mine?" We know that DD > wants something from Slughorn, but the Horcrux memory would not put > Slughorn in fear of his life from DD. Is DD being slightly sarcastic here, or is the question for real? hg: I think it's for real. He's hiding from Voldemort, yes, but Dumbledore more so. He's been in hiding a year. Well, a year ago the truth came out that Voldemort was alive and well again. That means that his secreted suspicions proved accurate, that Voldemort may suspect he'll remember that conversation regarding seven Horcruxes, and connecting the dots go running to Dumbledore. His bigger fear, I think, is that Dumbledore is likely to come a-calling. Now what's to fear from Dumbledore if all he has to do is teach at Hogwarts, under superior and myriad protections, and cough up one shameful memory? My answer is that I think he knows Dumbledore well enough to know that he asks a lot of people, lay-your-life-on-the-line a lot, and even MORE of his friends. I'd be willing to bet, even, that the time he quit Hogwarts and the time of Lily and James' (and Regulus') deaths coincided, and that Dumbledore has asked an awful lot of him before. > saraquel: > How did DD know where to find Slughorn? Slughorn was not > expecting him. hg: That one has me stumped. >saraquel: > Slughorn says he forgot to do the mark. Do we assume that he therefore knows > how to cast a Dark Mark? In GoF, p128, Mr Weasley says to > Hermione, "it was only the Death Eaters who ever knew how to conjure > it." But then on p73 Slughorn says `as I have never joined the > Death Eaters, h-w-m-n-b-n can hardly count me a friend." Sounds as > though he is debating whether Voldemort's vengeance will be > increased, but it also indicates that he was not always openly anti- > DE. hg: This sheds a new light on my reading of Slughorn thus far. I have been wondering about his motives -- is he really on Dumbledore's side or not -- but I've been heavily leaning on him being a reliable, true friend of Dumbledore, quite nearly an equal. If so, he'd probably be able to make a fake Dark Mark easily; his other skills are amazing, and in two minutes -- quite agile for someone supposedly old and frail. It seemed to me that Dumbledore was bringing in the big guns by hiring Slughorn, and that it was also a move to force Snape's hand. I can't imagine Slughorn ever associating himself with the Death Eaters, but you've got me duly worried. saraquel: > On page 69 DD probes for reasons, suggesting that > Slughorn's `considerable talents" would be a reason for the DEs to > come `recruiting'. hg: I read it that he was taking an opportunity to lavish praise to soften him up. saraquel: > Harry does not notice the ring at the Dursley's, but first notices it at Slughorn's, so DD has put the ring on especially for the visit. Presumably DD is banking on Slughorn recognising > it as Voldemort's. The ring is now cracked, having had Voldemort's > soul surgically removed. We also know that DD has tried to get the > full memory from Slughorn before. > Is DD presuming that Slughorn will know that the Ring was a Horcrux, and by the cracked state of it, realise that it has been destroyed. Or is DD just putting pressure on Slughorn to reveal how much he knows about Voldemort's horcruxes? hg: Yes, and yes -- and more, I think. In that scene, Harry is sitting on Dumbledore's left. We know this because Dumbledore extends his hands, the right (blackened) first, the left with the ring on it next, which is then that Harry notices it, can clearly see the stone and the crack. Dumbledore, addressing Slughorn's comment that Dumbledore should consider retiring, says, "you're quite right." When he extends the other hand, he says, "on the other hand..." On this "other hand" is the ring, and seated AT this other hand is Harry. Dumbledore is saying that I've found this ring, you know who it belonged to, it was a Horcrux and I destroyed it, and here sits Harry Potter, we're going to get Voldemort for sure, so I really, really need you, Horace. saraquel: > Speculation time: > Voldemort knows that Slughorn must suspect him of having made > Horcruxes ? in the plural ? because of the conversation. Now what's > interesting here is that young Tom was confident that Slughorn would > know about Horcruxes ? very, very dark magic. That Slughorn is a > very talented wizard there is no doubt... [DD says it and] Draco says (HBP p301) that his grandfather said that Slughorn was > the best potion-maker he'd known. > > Now, whoever stashed the false!locket found out about LVs Horcruxes > and about the cave. It has taken DD nigh on 16 years to get to this > point, the greatest living Wizard ? yet we are supposed to believe > that RAB ? Regulus Black ? sorry, who? Managed to get there way > before him. I'm very pulled to the opinion that Regulus was either someone's stooge, or took someone very talented with him. Regulus... was young and [his] powers wouldn't register much in the boat. > > Whoever, stole the Horcrux!Locket was a really good potion maker, > although I wonder where the ingredients to make the new potion came > from?? The best potion makers we know are Snape, Slughorn and > Lily. hg: I see where you're going and I'm intrigued and repulsed simultaneously. It still doesn't have to be Slughorn, but I LOVE that the bowl would have to be refilled. This lends credence to some speculation that Snape accompanied Regulus. saraquel: > Now the note claims that RAB wanted Voldemort to know it was him > that found out his secret. If RAB is a stooge, then the other person > must be someone who actively does not want LV to suspect them and is > prepared to give up the glory of having found out. This rules out > Snape IMHO ? whose life is one long seeking for recognition ? but > doesn't rule out Slughorn ? who always liked to take a back seat. hg: I don't think it of necessity would have to rule out Snape. It may in fact be convincing evidence that it is Snape. It might be more fuel to his fire of wanting recognition. Or it might have been his gesture when leaving the Death Eaters of severing his ties with Voldemort. Or a way of stripping Voldemort of some of his power, without Voldemort being the wiser, and then letting Regulus die for it. >saraquel: > Why might Slughorn have agreed to do this? To try and salve his > conscience. Although there must be much more to it than that, > Regulus might have gone to Slughorn for help...Having done > the dirty deed of stealing the Horcrux!Locket though, Slughorn would > now have something even more dangerous to try and hide, which might > explain his current behaviour. It still does not answer the question > about how Slughorn/Regulus knew about the cave. Who knew about the > cave??????? hg: No, no, you're onto something. After Harry gets the full memory and shares it with Dumbledore, there'd be plenty of time for Dumbledore and Slughorn to have an honest heart-to-heart chat wherein Slughorn would relent and agree to help with the Horcrux quest. If he tried to help Regulus -- by accompanying him or even just helping him upon his return -- he could know the location of the cave and be able to tell Dumbledore, preceding Dumbledore's invitation to Harry to join him. What DOESN'T work is that Dumbledore didn't know what Horcrux would be there. Would Regulus have been dying and only get out the part about the cave? Would he stop short of telling Slughorn which Horcrux it was because Slughorn didn't want to know too much? (This info has been quite a burden, after all.) How WOULD Regulus have found out about the cave, anyway? Unless, as you say, the DE's were privy to that info. (GoF, p562, Voldemort says to the returned DEs: "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?") Saraquel: > Then there is also the Felix Felicis potion... He says he has taken the potion twice in his life, once aged 24 and the second time aged 57. Hmmm, what happened the second > time. We know that he is younger than DD, we know that he started > teaching around the same time as DD (HBP p82) Does anyone know when > DD started teaching ? it must be over 55 years ago because he was a > teacher when he went to Tom's orphanage, and Tom was 11. hg: If Dumbledore was a new teacher when he went to the orphanage, it would be 1938 that he and Slughorn started teaching at Hogwarts together. 24 sounds a good age to get a teaching job, perhaps? His birthyear would be 1914, he'd be 57 in 1971, and goodness knows what was happening then. (Voldemort was getting powerful?) That would put his current age, by the way, at 82. Do the math in the reverse, speculating the locket was found in 1980 and he was 57, then he'd be 73 now, and the other lucky day would have been 1947. Not possible because he'd then have been 15 in 1938. One more little speculation: what if he aided Dumbledore in his defeat of Grindelwald? He'd have been 24 in 1945 and born in 1921; second day would be 1978 (?) and he'd be 75 now. I've more to say on the topic of Slughorn, but this post is already painfully long. Thanks for posting this, I've been craving a Slughorn talk. I'll look forward to your reply, Saraquel, and to those of others who may wish to add their comments. hg. From steamboatwilly at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 20:07:49 2005 From: steamboatwilly at gmail.com (Gary V) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:07:49 -0400 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <693a6f880508041307241fdb46@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136499 John K: > Now, the three big questions: > 1) What are the Horcruxes, and is Harry one of them? As to the locations of the Horcruxes.... I think one of the Horcruxes is hidden in the room of requirement. The same room Harry hid his new potions book. This was tossed around on this list early on and I think it's still valid. Thanks, Gary V From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 22:27:00 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not to sound like the Psychology major that I am, but... In-Reply-To: <1123080919.1814.63183.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050804222701.49534.qmail@web30012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136500 Maggie wrote: > 1. Could Serveus Snape be a High functioning Autistic? > 2. Draco Malfoy seems to me like he could have some kind of disruptive behavior disorder > 3. Hermione Granger and Percey Weasley seem to be intellectually gifted. > 4. Neville Longbottom seems to have some kind of Learning Disability or ADD. >5. Obviously stated in canon that Hannah Abott has anxiety attacks and says that she's too dumb to take the OWLs. Lynda says: Not responding as a psychology major but as one who works with learning disabled kids: 1. Severus Snape as a high functioning autistic--I guess that's a possibility, but I would say its unlikely. He's just, to say the least, not a nice person; to say the most very possibly evil. 2. Draco Malfoy may have some or all of these disorders. Or he could be a spoiled kid who is suddenly under a lot of pressure to perform (as of the last book). He lives in a household where he has been taught to value the goals of dark wizardry. He reminds me aomwhat of a kid I work with some, though, who does have some behaviour problems (ODD, ADD). 3. JKR has gone to great lengths to help us understand that Percy Weasley and Hermione Granger are indeed, very gifted intellectually. 4. Neville Longbottom is under extreme pressure from his family. He is constantly being told by his grandmother that he is not as good (talented at wizardry) as his parents were. His grandmother did not even buy him his own wand. She passed on his father's wand to him instead. 5. Yes, Hannah Abbot has anxiety attacks when testing. A lot of people do. As for being to dumb to take her OWLS, she is the one who said that, not anyone else. I'm not critizizing your comments, but there are a lot of real people out there who have had labels put on them. Some of those labels are valid, and then again, some are not. I can see traces of some of the kids I work with in some of Rowling's fictional characters, but then, too, they are portrayed as people with problems, and family pressures and expectations are big problems for a lot of people. Snape as a high functioning autistic...now that puts a new twist on things... Lynda From nawyecka at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 03:06:15 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry is not Gryffindor's heir (was Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805030615.82281.qmail@web60418.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136501 Morgan: > JKR has shot down that theory. Read the text of her > > Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview below where she > states that Harry > is not the Heir of Gryffindor Larry: All of Harry's great magical successes have come from his great capacity for love, and the choices he makes because of that capacity. The concept of the Heir of Gryffindor does not fit Harry because of this. Furthermore, this Heir of... business is a Slytherin belief. It is Slytherin who prizes blood above all else, heirship and blood descent outweigh all else for the Slytherin. Only a Voldemort would claim the title of Heir of Slytherin, because only to a Slytherin would this have any meaning. A Gryffindor would never trace their lineage, search for a connection to an ancient past, nor would a Gryffindor define themselves by such a connection. When have we seen a Weasley talk longingly of a connection to a famous or revered ancestor? Or Dumbledore, or Lupin or anyone else we have come to respect. Recall the reaction of Sirius as he confronts the tapestry in OOTP. P. 114 Am. ed., "Does it matter if she's my cousin?"... "As far as I'm concerned, they're not my family. She's certainly not my family."... It seems to me that Sirius is drawing a very clear distinction between "family", and "relative". Relative is seen by Sirius as a blood accident, a meaningless happenstance, something over which the individual has no control. However, to Sirius, we choose our family. Larry From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Aug 5 03:52:41 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:52:41 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeththedragonslayer" wrote: > Susanmcgee48176 wrote: > > > > Sorry, but I totally disagree with "Molly's treatment of Arthur" > as > > browbeating or disrespectful. They have spirited arguments -- I > > believe that their argument in the GoF where they are debating > > whether to tell Harry is a wonderful example of mature adults who > > love each other and respectfully disagree. Arthur goes ahead and > > warns Harry about Sirius. Arthur has plenty of influence on > > decisions. He goes ahead and has the muggle surgeon stitch his > > wounds -- Molly was right and angry -- but that didn't stop him. > > > > Good post!! In regards to the Browbeaten Arthur theory, remember I think what bothers me is that I don't see Arthur at all browbeaten. I think it's a put down of both him and Molly that is not fair. I haven't heard a whole lot about Petunia being "brow beaten"...even though Vernon makes most of the decisions. (In PS/SS he takes the family on a wild, mad flight from the owl post, regardless of Petunia's horror). It's only in OoP that Petunia says that Harry will stay, and we're surprised because we're used to her being mostly quiet and letting Vernon rant and rave. Upon further reflection, I am reacting badly to the browbeaten Arthur theory because I believe it is a gendered theory -- and specifically anti-female. I took a long moratorium from this list in part because of the anti- Molly and anti-Hermione posts. Assertive (or heavens forbid loud) women are called bossy. Assertive men are seen as normal. Do you notice that no one calls Ron "bossy" when he is trying to tell Ginny how to run her social life? In some ways, Molly and Arthur have a very traditional relationship in terms of gender roles. Her arena is mostly the family, the household, and child care. His arena is mostly work and supporting the family. As I've said before, I find this too rigid for my own taste. However, I grew up in a family like that in that my father worked outside the home, and my mother worked inside the home. In Molly and Arthur's situation, it seems to work for them. But in other ways, Molly and Arthur do not conform to highly rigid gendered roles. Molly is loud, she shouts, she makes her opinions known. Arthur is more quiet and laid back. This is contrary to what men and women are supposed to be like. I see a lot of men who are really nice guys, negotiate with their female partners, do their share of the household work, and child care -- and are seen as p***y whipped -- this is a term of contempt and derison for men who are browbeaten or controlled by their wives. What is behind this contempt? It's MEN who are supposed to do the controlling of WOMEN..who are supposed to wear the pants, rule the roost..and if you're not a REAL man (and a real man means making decisions and controlling women), then you must be like a woman, that is, contemptible. Because Molly and Arthur share decisions, most people see Molly as dominating him. This makes them hostile to Molly and contemptuous or dismissing of Arthur. Of course, any time one person is at home most of the time with the children, and the other is working long hours, the person at home is going to have more role in child rearing and will oftentimes (not always) be the on the spot disciplinarian. It's a question of access. But Arthur is indeed involved with his family. He's obviously been teaching the children about magic (how many times have I told you never to trust something if you can't see where it keeps its brains?) (Harry, please, you're talking to the man who raised Fred and George). He takes his kids AND Harry and Hermione to the Quidditch Cups, which is a big responsibility. (Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five. I nearly did too, I was holding hands with Fred and everything when Dad found us. He went mental," said Ron, with a reminiscent gleam in his eyes. "Only time I've ever seen Dad as angry as Mum, Fred reckons his left but-tock has never been the same since." ) Arthur is a great guy. More evidence. He arrives at the Dursleys, and is genuinely concerned about Dudley. He becomes angry at Fred and George about the Ten-Tongue Toffee. He CAN lose his temper -- look at how he got into a fight with Lucius Malfoy in the CoS (I was so sorry they took that part out of the movie. I think too many see Arthur as not a "real" man because he's not ambitious. He's happy in his low end job at the Ministry...and Muggle Studies is "soft". It's not like being an Auror, or an Unspeakable. So as usual, I'm contrary to the prevailing winds....love the Weasley family, love Molly, love Arthur, love the Burrow (me and Harry), love their relationships...... Now I'm going to shut up for a while. Susan From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 04:10:50 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:10:50 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136505 Alla wrote: Consider this quote: "She would not even stay alive for her son?" Dumbledore raised his eyebrows. "Could you possibly be feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?" "No," said Harry quickly, "But she had a choice, din't she , not like my mother" - HBP, p.262. To me it is fairly obvious, that despite his denial, Harry does feel bad for Tom's childhood. Juli now: I loved that piece of conversation when I first read it, it shows how big Harry's heart is. He knows how to becomes, he's been try to kill him several times, he killed his parents, his godfather... a lot of people, yet there's still space in his heart for pity. Pity, IMO, is a positive feeling, it helps us. By showing pity for Tom, Harry is above and beyond him. Alla: But, are you sure that he feels only loathing towards Malfoy? "He despised Malfoy still for his infatuation with the Dark Arts, but now the tiniest drop of pity mingled with his dislike" Juli again: I also loved that phrase. Harry has hated Malfo since the day they met almost 7 years ago, Draco reached out to him and Harry seeing how he really was decided against it. Over the years they have hurt each other both physically and mentally, they've never agreed on anything, I think they wouldn't even give each other the time! But, Harry no longer hates him, he knows that there's good inside Draco, that even if he was ordered to kil Dumbledore he wasn't able, he wasn't even really trying. He was doing it just because he loves his parents. And it hurt him, remember how he seemed to look sick and pale? Knowing what he had to was "killing" him, he didn't want to do it. If Harry can feel anyting but hate towards his enemies, imagine how he feels about his friends! His heart sure is full of love. Juli From sydenmill at msn.com Fri Aug 5 04:33:35 2005 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:33:35 -0000 Subject: Fake Wand = Fake Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136506 (All text quotes taken from HBP, American edition. Page numbers as noted.) Thought I'd throw some thoughts into the discussion about Snape and Dumbledore. I'm still up in the air about this part of Book 6 and am not even convinced myself that these possibilities are feasible... but, thought it would be fun to discuss: Has anyone considered the possibility that the wand used by Snape to "kill" Dumbledore might have been one of Fred's and George's fake ones? These wands were introduced prominently and mentioned repeatedly for a reason -- yet they have not played much of a significant part in the plot so far. Fred's and George's considerable magical talents had been thoroughly established in other ways throughout the books; the fake wands in and of themselves weren't necessary to accomplish that. Could this version of events be possible: Snape yells the Avada Kedavra words to the heavens (which would be completely ineffective without a real wand), points the fake wand at Dumbledore, and hits him with a harmless green light beam and a built-in Wingardium Leviosa spell.("Amuse your friends, scare your enemies -- try one of our Wingardium Kedavra wands. By the time your attackers realize the trick, you will have had time to make a clean escape.") After being hit, Dumbledore appears to be genuinely killed, flies up in the air and falls "over the battlements and out of sight" (page 596) -- where, unseen, he transforms into a wasp or bumblebee or whatever his Animagus is -- and floats peacefully to the ground. Harry "had known there was no hope from the moment the full Body-Bind Curse Dumbledore had placed on him lifted, known it could have happened only because its caster was dead..." (page 608) Or, because Dumbledore himself released it as he landed gently on the ground and resumed his normal form. Later, Hagrid scoops Dumbledore up ("I would trust Hagrid with my life," Dumbledore says to McGonagall in the opening scene of SS) and takes him somewhere (not disclosed in the book, hmmm, big surprise) -- and Snape, still loyal to DD, comes back around later and gives the antidote for the cave potion. Also, notice the similarity in these descriptions: "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it..." (page 571) "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." (page 595) These identical feelings of hatred and revulsion, in my opinion, were felt the same by Snape and Harry, not toward the man but rather toward the deed at hand. However: "Snape's face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he cursed Dumbledore." (page 604) Poor old Snape. Up to his bat-like armpits in a wretched mess he truly never intended to step into. Sucked into the Unbreakable Vow, forced to "kill" Dumbledore, forced to tolerate Draco's bratty and arrogant treatment of him all year so as not to blow his cover, forced to leave Hogwarts (in my opinion, his only true home), on and on and on -- literally risking his life to remain loyal to Dumbledore -- only to be called a coward by the kid of a peer he hated. Yep, that would pretty much infuse a bit of hatred into one's expression, albeit for entirely different reasons than the look of hatred on his face over Dumbledore's "execution" at his hand. Of course, isn't it a shame we all couldn't believe Sirius was truly dead -- and discussed every possibility that he was actually alive, how that could have been accomplished, etc. Poor Jo. Can you see her reading our discussions about THAT being a fake death when it wasn't, knowing that she was planning a real fake death in a later book? So here, now, is Dumbledore, truly not dead, and we are right back where we were after Sirius passed through the veil. Kinda like Harry tells Ron the reason he didn't hand him a bezoar as the antidote to the poisons in Potions because "It would've just looked stupid if we'd both done it!" (page 380) I wonder if we stole her thunder? And lastly, the ta-da statement of the entire book: "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." (page 591) Just some thoughts that swirled to the surface, bohcoo From sydenmill at msn.com Fri Aug 5 04:40:11 2005 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:40:11 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136507 In one of her numerous interviews Rowling mentioned that someone manages to perform magic rather late in life, under dire circumstances. Did anyone else feel when Hagrid pointed his wonderful pink, flowery umbrella at his flaming house to save his beloved Fang, and uttered the charm, "Aguamenti," thus helping Harry to extinguish the blaze, that this might be what she was making reference to? Thanks for your thoughts, bohcoo From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 05:12:53 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:12:53 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136508 > Susan > > Good post!! In regards to the Browbeaten Arthur theory, remember > I think what bothers me is that I don't see Arthur at all browbeaten. > I think it's a put down of both him and Molly that is not fair. Arthur does do things counter to Molly's wishes on a number of occasions and almost all of them he does behind her back. It's never, no dear, you are just wrong, its 'shush, come over here Harry'. What kind of relationship is it when the man has go around his wife in secret whenever he does something she doesn't like? Molly is rude to a lot of people, her husband just happens to be one of them in my opinion. > I haven't heard a whole lot about Petunia being "brow beaten"...even > though Vernon makes most of the decisions. (In PS/SS he takes the > family on a wild, mad flight from the owl post, regardless of > Petunia's horror). It's only in OoP that Petunia says that Harry will > stay, and we're surprised because we're used to her being mostly > quiet and letting Vernon rant and rave. Huh, I always saw Petunia as the puller of Vernons strings. It's not like Harry was ever wanted by Vernon in the first place, but still he took him in because Petunia made him. I give her more credit than you do, I guess. To each their own. > Upon further reflection, I am reacting badly to the browbeaten Arthur > theory because I believe it is a gendered theory -- and specifically > anti-female. I take offense to that remark. I guess I am for thinking that Molly should treat Arthur with the same respect he treats her with. Somehow I will muddle on with life. > I took a long moratorium from this list in part because of the anti- > Molly and anti-Hermione posts. Assertive (or heavens forbid loud) > women are called bossy. Assertive men are seen as normal. Do you > notice that no one calls Ron "bossy" when he is trying to tell Ginny > how to run her social life? No, people call Ron all sorts of other things. How about the R/Hr shippers who seem to think that Ron needs to be *trained* in order to become a suitable mate for Hermione like he was some kind of dog who needs to be made aware of the fact he shouldn't crap on the couch? How about all the lovely names thrown around for CAPSLOCK!Harry? He likes to yell too, and with justifiably more reason than Molly does. Yeah, I don't like Hermione. I don't like her obnoxiousness over the fake felix potion. I don't like her self importance. I don't like the way she uses magically conjured birds to attack Ron for daring to kiss another girl besides her. Those aren't the actions of an assertive person, those are the actions of giant ^&^%* I have no problem with assertive women, literary or real. What I have a problem with is women who confuse assertiveness with obnoxiousness. A good example of an assertive but not obnoxious woman in the series: McGonagall. Another would be Madam Pomfry. Molly Weasley is no Minerva McGonagall. > But in other ways, Molly and Arthur do not conform to highly rigid > gendered roles. Molly is loud, she shouts, she makes her opinions > known. This is contrary to what men and women are supposed to be like. Or, you know, basic standards of politeness. > I see a lot of men who are really nice guys, negotiate with their > female partners, do their share of the household work, and child > care -- and are seen as p***y whipped -- this is a term of contempt > and derison for men who are browbeaten or controlled by their wives. Except for we don't see Arthur negotiate with Molly at all. She just yells at him til he does what she wants or goes behind her back. Imagine if Arthur was the loud one in the relationship. Would you be as okay with him talking the Molly like that? I wouldn't be. > What is behind this contempt? It's MEN who are supposed to do the > controlling of WOMEN..who are supposed to wear the pants, rule the > roost..and if you're not a REAL man (and a real man means making > decisions and controlling women), then you must be like a woman, that > is, contemptible. Or no one in the relationship is supposed to rule the other. You could be a team instead of playing power games with the other. This is why I'm not married yet. I don't want to dominate my wife but neither do I want to surrender to her. It looks to me like Arthur has just surrendered to Molly. > Because Molly and Arthur share decisions, most people see Molly as > dominating him. This makes them hostile to Molly and contemptuous or > dismissing of Arthur. But once again, they don't really share all that many decisions. At least not that I can recall. > Of course, any time one person is at home most of the time with the > children, and the other is working long hours, the person at home is > going to have more role in child rearing and will oftentimes (not > always) be the on the spot disciplinarian. It's not his relationship with the kids that bothers me or her disciplining of them. It's her treating Arthur like an extra child and disciplining him. I've heard it on the list many times that Arthur is like an extra child she's raising. That is demeaning to him. > Arthur is a great guy. More evidence. He arrives at the Dursleys, and > is genuinely concerned about Dudley. He becomes angry at Fred and > George about the Ten-Tongue Toffee. I agree with you. Arthur is a great guy. My favorite Arthur scene is when he asks (or tells) the Dursleys to say goodbye to Harry. There was some steel in Arthur during that scene in my view. There just aren't enough of those. > I think too many see Arthur as not a "real" man because he's not > ambitious. He's happy in his low end job at the Ministry...and Muggle > Studies is "soft". It's not like being an Auror, or an Unspeakable. Once again you're putting words in my mouth (I am the guy who started this argument). I never mentioned anything about Arthur lacking ambition or whether or not he is a real man. I think the Molly/Arthur relationship is a symptom of Rowling larger issues. As I talked about in a previous post I think she is, in general, very down on fathers. Just about every instance of Arthur being a strong father figure was talked about as either in the past or off screen. We almost never see him being tough. The best father we see in the series is generally portrayed as a sweet befuddled man who does what his wife tells him to in most situations. It's the same thing in sitcoms. How many sitcoms are out there with stupid/weak/disengaged men with long suffering much more intelligent wives. despite what you say about anti-female bigotry I think there is far more anti male than you acknowledge. Arthur is a victim of it. phoenixgod2000 From juli17 at aol.com Fri Aug 5 05:14:57 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 01:14:57 EDT Subject: Snape having been loved Message-ID: <8.6dccd35e.30244fd1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136509 And Snape, who called > himself after his mother's maiden name and was proud of that, > probably loved his mother back. I wonder if we will even know what > happened to Eileen? Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. Im a Prince :) Cheryl Julie says: That's a very interesting thought! The description of her appearance certainly is Snape-like. And if she is Eileen Prince, maybe this could explain Dumbledore's ironclad reason for trusting Severus Snape. It has something to do with his mother--the only person who ever loved him. It's worth thinking about anyway, Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swood at csu.edu.au Fri Aug 5 03:23:35 2005 From: swood at csu.edu.au (sgwood01) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:23:35 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136510 Hi, new member here - somewhat surprised to find myself so obsessed with The Half Blood Prince. Racheal wrote: > So I definitely think that the fifth horcrux is something of > Ravenclaw's, which goes along with something JKR said which was along > the lines of "Ravenclaw will have it's day in the next book". > > who thinks that one of the horcruxes is hidden in the Room of > Requirement and can be found when you're desperately looking for a > place to hide something. I agree that one of the horcruxes will be something belonging to Ravenclaw, for reasons of symmetry as much as anything else. Having arrived at that point, I found myself speculating about Luna Lovegood. Although Luna has played a role in earlier books, no real explanation has been supplied to explain why she is in Ravenclaw. That seems to me to be a loose end. (Contrast this with Neville, who has acted bravely on a number of occasions even though at first he seems an unlikely Gryffindor.) Is the reason she is a Ravenclaw (or had to be in terms of the plot) yet to be revealed? Then there is the matter of Luna's possessions going missing at the end of Order of the Phoenix.We don't know who took her possessions, what was missing or how she got them back. Is there any chance that Luna has something of Ravenclaws, perhaps acquired on one of her jaunts with her Dad, and that this object was either lost or stolen from her and ended up in the Room of Requirement? Sue W (in Oz) From juli17 at aol.com Fri Aug 5 05:43:41 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 01:43:41 EDT Subject: Snape as having been loved. Message-ID: <42.6e967163.3024568d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136511 Rebecca wrote: I would very much like to know exactly what JKR meant when she said how Snape had been love wheres Voldemort had not and this made Snape more culpable than Voldemort was. Culpable in what way exactly? Did she mean that Voldemort's nastiness was more excusable than Snape's bullying behaviour? Julie says: I think what JKR means is that Snape having been loved (and probably having loved--if his mother loved him, surely he loved her back) makes him capable of empathy, which gives him the ability to put himself in someone else's shoes and understand that person's pain. Voldemort, never loved and never having loved, has no such empathy. He has no real conception of anyone else's feelings or pain except his own, thus no internal reason to avoid hurting other people. That's what I think JKR means when she says Snape is more culpable for his actions--because he understands the pain he is causing. And that has nothing to do with excusing the actions of either. Voldemort can certainly understand right and wrong in an intellectual sense. He knows it's "wrong" to kill other people. But he can't understand it in an emotional sense. He can make a choice not to kill, but there's no emotional benefit in it for him, since he's not bothered by remorse or guilt. Which makes him a psychopath. While there's no excuse for Voldemort's actions, and they are far more evil than Snape's (so far as we know), he is less culpable, because in a sense he can't really help himself. Something vital is missing in him, and it's not just all those pieces of his soul. It's an age-old question whether/when he could have been turned around (i.e., whether he was born that way or at some point his environment tipped the scale), but it was probably too late for Tom Riddle by the time Dumbledore brought him from the orphanage. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 05:46:27 2005 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More On Snape(long, sry) In-Reply-To: <000401c59920$68bc47e0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20050805054627.88253.qmail@web32908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136512 I don't know if still need to put spoiler space, so I'll do it to be safe... *S* *P* *O* *I* *L* *E* *R* That work?? Ok, so anyway, I happen to be one of the people that thinks that Snape is a good guy, and we are going to find out that DD asked him to kill him (or something like that) in book 7 - mainly because I was devastated by DD's death and Snape's actions, so this belief allows me to console myself lol. I'm rereading HBP and I came across this line: " "You...you can't stop, professor," said Harry. "You've got to keep drinking remember? You told me you had to keep drinking. Here..." HATING HIMSELF, REPULSED BY WHAT HE WAS DOING, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth..." (HBP US edition pg 571) **emphasis mine** Then, of course, the now famous "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, AND THERE WAS REVULSION AND HATRED etched in the harsh lines of his face." (HBP US edition pg 595) **emphasis mine** As I read the first part, that line just jumped out at me - it practically parallels the following one about Snape. I'm wondering if I am the only one that not only noticed this but made the same connection. That it's yet another example of someone that loved DD dearly, following his orders, knowing he was causing immense pain - if not even death - and showing repulsion and hatred while doing it. Am I just trying to hard to make the connection?? Does anyone else agree that this is too similar to just be a coincidence? I know we have been talking a lot about Snape (especially that one line) but I would love to hear some other thoughts on this. Beckah (who is anxiously awaiting book 7 and can't believe it could be another two years!!!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ongj87 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 03:38:14 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:38:14 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes: Groundrules and Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136513 > John K: > Yes, but... there are so many more ways to incapacitate a person > than killing them. In the scene in the Astronomy tower, Harry would > have protected Dumbledore or died trying, but Dumbledore didn't want > him to. So (rather than killing him), he put a full body-bind curse > on him. If Voldemort wanted Lily to live for his own purposes, he > would have done similarly. It would even have been easier. > > I also don't see Voldemort wanting Lily to live because even if he > did want Harry to be his heir, he wouldn't /want/ Lily raising him. > Not only had she proven that she hated Voldemort (and he knew it; > she'd defied him three times) but she was muggle-born. She was > pretty much the opposite of the mother Voldemort would idealize. The parallel between Dumbledore's death doesn't quite match the circumstnaces. The first point being that Voldemort does not care for Lily's safety in the way that Dumbledore does Harry's. I think that Voldemort was willing to let Lily live to the extent that if she was willing to raise Harry as Voldemort's heir, she would be allowed to live. Otherwise, she would just be in the way. I doubt he would have any problem with killing her if he deemed her unnecessary. True, Lily does not fit the profile of Voldemort's ideal. Though, I think there might be something about Lily's lineage we aren't seeing, the clue being Petunia. I am hopeful there will be an explanation to this problem in the seventh book. > John K: > I still think it's been directly called a Killing Curse, including > by Dumbledore, way too many times for JKR to pull this on us. It's > one thing to make a motivation or an event seem a little strange, or > to drop hints in the text that something is not as it seems; but > this would be another thing altogether, a plot twist out of the > blue. That's not fair to readers, and JKR is a better writer than > that, no matter what the H/G shippers say. ;) I don't believe this is beneath JK, as we all know there is a big secret hidden beneath everything. And the clues are there, as I am trying to show. As I have said before, I think that only Dumbledore, Lily, and James were aware of Voldemort's true intentions. As for Dumbledore, I will get to this point in a moment. > John K: > I have to admit that this is indeed the most logical explanation > I've heard yet for this, though I've been adamately maintaining that > Harry cannot be a Horcrux. I just haven't yet heard a satisfactory > explanation of /how or why/ Harry could have become a Horcrux. I > just don't think Voldemort was trying to do anything but kill him. > And if Dumbledore thought he was, wouldn't he have told Harry? > After all, the Horcrux explanations seemed designed so that Harry > could carry on destroying them if something happened to Dumbledore. > That would be an awfully critical piece of information to leave out, > no matter how it made Harry feel. Not to mention the fact that > Dumbledore has already learned not to withold information from Harry. First of all, thank you. I worked very hard on getting the kinks out of that theory. Now I find this to be the most intriguing part of the puzzle. As I pondered this entire theory, I kept asking myself, "If Dumbledore knew, why didn't he tell Harry?" The night at the Ministry in OoP, Voldemort possesses Harry in hopes that Dumbledore would be willing to sacrifice Harry in order to get a shot at killing Voldemort. But there is a major flaw in this. Voldemort must have known that Dumbledore was aware of the horcruxes. This being the case, Dumbledore must have known that killing Harry would have done nothing, for killing the original soul piece is meaningless unless you take out the other horcruxes. If you think about it, this isn't valid at all, so why would Voldemort do such a thing? However, this incident would be well explained if Harry was one of Voldemort's horcruxes. This would not give Dumbledore a shot at Voldemort, but at Harry. Given this oppurtunity, Dumbledore would have been able to kill Harry, in the process getting rid of one of the horcruxes in the process, and say that he was trying to kill Voldemort but failed. Nobody would have questioned him otherwise. But Dumbledore didn't do it. This leads back to, in Dumbledore's words, "the flawed plan". RIGHT after the scene I just discussed occurs, Dumbledore has a nice long talk with Harry about the flaw of his plan, that he loves Harry too much to burden him with the "beautiful, terrible" truth. Dumbledore then revealed to Harry the prophecy of which he was burdened to fulfill and shed a few tears. But did he weep for another reason? I think perhaps Dumbledore did not tell Harry that night the entire truth, believing that he could still let Harry live a little longer in bliss before the time came. Sure, Harry would be rightfully pissed off at DD, but Dumblydore I think would have been willing to make that sacrifice if it meant Harry's happiness. Now this part of the theory only works out if you believe that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him: Dumbledore, knowing that he would soon be departing from the living world, knew he was running out of time and would soon have to unleash upon Harry the truth. He kept putting it off until, finally, he couldn't do it. Or perhaps, he wasn't given the oppurtunity. Perhaps he planned to tell Harry when they came back from the Cave. Either way, he couldn't tell him face to face. He knew the idea would tear Harry to pieces, maybe even drive Harry to insanity or suicide. Dumbledore couldn't face such a thing alive, and so he put the explanation into the pensieve, dying with shame and grief for his cowardice. As far as we have been shown, we have no gotten a glimpse at very many flaws of Dumbledores. If my theory were to be correct, I believe this would give Dumbledore a more human character and rather less than a god. > John K: > Makes sense (though I'm unsure why Harry hasn't found out he's > Gryffindor's heir by now), but... Harry doesn't know much about his lineage or family and hasn't been able to find out. I think perhaps he will learn more when he goes to Godric's Hollow in the next book. > John K: > I'm not convinced making Harry a Horcrux would end the Gryffindor > line; after all, the Gryffindor descendant would still be alive. True, Harry's body would still be existant. But I think Voldemort would think little of mortal elements such as flesh and blood. And by planting a horcrux in Harry to eventually merge with Harry's soul, he'd be squashing out all the Gryffindor spirit in him and making him a true Slytherin. In this sense, I think Voldemort would see it as ending the line. > > 2. Earned himself an heir. > A good point. However, we must remember that Tom loves trophies. He liked stealing others prized possessions and making them his own as a child, and continued to do so as a mature adult (look at all the horcruxes). I think it would be quite a Riddle-ish idea for him to steal Harry, quite a prized possession being an only son and heir to Gryffindor, and making him his own. > But it would be an enormous risk to raise to full wizarding maturity > a boy with the power to vanquish him, particularly as Voldemort > thinks nobody else has that power. It would be a classic evil > villain mistake - I'll raise my son to be as powerful as me, of > course he will do my bidding (but he doesn't, he ends up killing the > father instead). Voldemort doesn't make many of these obvious sorts > of mistakes. > Besides, he doesn't need Harry as a weapon. He doesn't need > anything as a weapon. He's the most powerful wizard on earth. We > see throughout the sixth book that Voldemort is really doing quite > well for himself, and that's with Harry the weapon on the OTHER > side. And by all indications, he was doing quite well during the > first war as well, until Harry came along. > I don't think this is as big a risk as you think. Nagini we believe is one of Voldemort's horcruxes. She is very much under his control and possessed her in the fifth book in the attack on Arthur. Sure, he's been known to possess others before, but let me come back to this point. First of all, let us assume that Nagini's soul has merged with Voldemort's soul piece to a certain extent (assuming that this is possible). Nagini would gain the same motives and spirit that Voldemort has, so why would she ever turn on Voldemort? This is probably the reason he has so much control over her. Now back to my prior point. Ginny described the symptoms of being possessed by Voldemort to Harry in the fifth book. She said that you knew you were being possessed if you had large blank spots in your memory and found yourself in places but couldn't remember how you got there. Harry was possessed later in the fifth book at the Ministry of Magic by Voldemort but did not experience what was described at all. He remembered exactly what he experienced when being possessed. I think perhaps that Voldemort is able to possess Harry in a different way than he does others because Harry is his horcrux. I think in this way he is able to possess Nagini as well. Voldemort is able to go into Harry's mind and make him experience things that make him think in a different way. For instance, he was able to make Harry experience great pain, so much so that Harry wished to be killed by Dumbledore. Voldemort I think would have thought that if Harry even tried to rebel as a mature wizard, which I doubted he would, he could probably just possess Harry and change his mind. And speaking of being able to possess Harry in such a manner, it would be a very convenient weapon to Voldemort to be able to possess Harry and make him go out and do work for him. In this, Voldemort wouldn't even have to leave the house. How efficient is that? My last argument to this is that the prophecy stated that that the person prophecized would have a power that the Dark Lord knows not. I think this would have positively eaten Tom from the inside out. Voldemort might have thought it to be to his advantage to take Harry as his horcrux in order to learn of this power. In making Harry his horcrux, he might see it as him gaining the power himself. Sure, maybe he didn't NEED this extra power, but just knowing he could get it might make him oversee some technicalities. It sure didn't stop him when he was trying to get the blood of Harry to maket he potion to revive him. I mean, look at all the risks he took just to make that when he could have used anybody. I don't think it's below him. > John K: > I like this idea simply because it explains Dumbledore's little > tool. I don't like it because I can't find any other evidence for > it. And though, as I said, this is a good explanation for > Dumbledore's instrument, that's not enough to go on for me, as there > are other potential explanations for the instrument as well - > perhaps it was about the snake that bit Arthur? Or about control of > Harry's mind? Or to find out whether Voldemort was possessing > Harry? All of these would have been much more urgent, and > necessitated Dumbledore using the instrument in front of Harry. I rather came upon an interesting theory upon hearing your argument. What if he meant to use the instrument (assuming it was used for the purpose I theorized) in front of Harry? What if he wanted Harry to see it for himself so that later he could explain it to him. Perhaps, later on, knowing he was going to die, he put a memory in the pensieve about how to operate the instrument, as to assist Harry in reading it. Again, happy to discuss this topic further with anyone. - ongj87 From bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 5 05:02:16 2005 From: bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca (bennetfan101) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:02:16 -0000 Subject: Merope is pitiful was Re: In defense of Molly + Merope comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136514 phoenixgod2000 wrote: > She has had any number of bad things happen to her, things that I > wouldn't wish on anyone. But that is true of just about any evil > person on the planet. There are very few people who are evil in a > vacumn. I've done work with prison inmates in the past and I can tell > you they are filled with stories just as dark as Merope's and they > turned around and spread that darkness to other people just as she > spread her own darkness to Tom Sr. She is sad, pathetic and weak. > > But so is just about every other evil person on the planet. But none of these things make Merope a strong mother figure in comparison to Tom Riddle Sr. -- unless we're including the fact that she was in control of her senses when he was knocking her up. Merope was clearly the underdog house-elf in her family, beaten, maybe even (I suspect, there were strong indicators of this) raped herself in her family. When Tom left her she was poor and broken; she is basically the HP equivalent of runaway teenage pregnancy. I believe she is to be pitied for this, but it's entirely beside the point; the point is that she herself was not a particularly strong mother figure. On the other hand, in comparision to Tom Riddle, she was the more loving figure, which does make her win the successful-parental- figure battle (although this battle can hardly be applied to such a situation). The magic came from her side, but so did the sociopathy. I'm not that surprised that the male figure is the weaker parental figure in nine out of ten of the family units we see in the HP series; there was an article not long ago speculating on the possibility of this being a result of Jo's first husband walking out on her and her daughter. bennetfan101 From bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 5 05:11:48 2005 From: bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca (bennetfan101) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:11:48 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136515 Hee, those were two of my very favourite moments in the books. Harry has already been set up as loving his friends and mentors very strongly, and really all that is left is whether or not he will be able to love his enemies. Tom Riddle and Draco Malfoy are indicators of his learning to do this eventually, but I personally think that the biggest hurdle will be Snape. Snape seems to have so much to do with Harry in the series; JKR has now confirmed that the Harry/Snape vendetta is much more personal than Voldemort/Harry. This is understandable; in Harry's mind, to date, Snape has helped cause the deaths of Sirius, James, Lily, Dumbledore...it seems as though his reasons for hating Snape are piling up by the year. And yet Snape is clearly going to be a very big figure in this war somehow; if he can kill Dumbledore before Harry's eyes and STILL remain as ambiguous as he is, we know he has to be really important. So I would totally be unsurprised if compassion for Snape actually happened to be the sort of love required from Harry to defeat Voldemort. It's stretching, but it would be a good message to portray...of course, they'll have to resolve a heck of a lot before it comes to this...-_-* bennetfan101 From bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 5 04:49:56 2005 From: bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca (bennetfan101) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:49:56 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly + Merope comments In-Reply-To: <20a.6788353.3023fd8f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136516 Roxanne: > But really can't you understand why she felt the way she did? The Weasleys > have taken Harry into their family. And yeah at that point Molly had been a > lot more involved than Sirius had. 15 is a weird age in teenage terms. > Adults don't always know how to treat you. I love how Rowling portrayed both > Harry at that age as well as how the adult around him reacted. As far as the > story Molly and Sirius make excellent foils. What was best for Harry probably > lies somewhere in the middle. Personally, I found this scene rather hilarious, though Molly did hit way below the belt. Molly and Sirius were perfectly at odds with each other, and it was sort of like they were arguing over custody of Harry or something. So I see what you mean about Molly; jealousy as a motive for her behaviour has been presented frequently, and I think many things in OotP support that particular argument (ie, Molly's "Aunt Petunia-ish" look when Sirius accompanied them to King's Cross Station). bennetfan101 From bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 5 04:43:00 2005 From: bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca (bennetfan101) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:43:00 -0000 Subject: Fred and George (was: In defense of Molly) In-Reply-To: <00f901c5994d$83015000$3121f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136517 > And besides, in defense of my favorite twins, they didn't do it because > Dudley is a muggle, so it's not muggle baiting. As they said, they did it > because he's a great bullying git, or words to that effect. they'd have > done the same, I think, if Harry's cousin was a wizard child. > > Sherry The twins are huge favourites of mine, but this particular scene has allways been one that I've been torn about. On the one hand, I can appreciate that they were showing their love for Harry, but in such a hostile way. The problem with the twins is that they have never, EVER been forced to face consequences for their actions. Either someone is there to clean up after them, or they don't particularly care about the people they are victimizing (and thus, consequences less than death/serious injury have no effect on them). It sort of reminds me of the Marauders. bennetfan101 From jwright at amdocs.com Fri Aug 5 05:32:30 2005 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:32:30 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136518 redeyedwings says: > With regards to comparing HP to other famous fantasy heroes, I would > argue that the HP series, just like the six Star Wars episodes, is > geared towards the triumph of one character over a larger evil (Harry > over LV, Luke over the Sith/Empire) the heart of the stories (and > their narratives) are both told and driven by the presence of a > conflicted evil villian. > Luke could have never beaten Vader/Emperor with out Han (New Hope, Han comes back and gets rid of the fighters chasing Luke so Luke can take "The Shot" to destroy the death star). Just like Harry needs his friends to over come LV. I think that we will see Hogwarts because Ginny since she is under age Molly will make her go back to Hogwarts. But Ginny will be able to provide Harry info that maybe is only in Hogwarts (Library info etc) pitaprh From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 05:42:26 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:42:26 -0000 Subject: Fake Wand = Fake Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > ...snip..Has anyone considered the possibility that the wand used by Snape to "kill" Dumbledore might have been one of Fred's and George's fake ones? These wands were introduced prominently and mentioned repeatedly for a reason -- yet they have not played much of a significant part in the plot so far....snip... ("Amuse your friends, scare your enemies -- try one of our Wingardium Kedavra wands. By the time your attackers realize the trick, you will have had time to make a clean escape.") > > After being hit, Dumbledore appears to be genuinely killed, flies up in the air and falls "over the battlements and out of sight" (page 596) -- where, unseen, he transforms into a wasp or bumblebee or whatever his Animagus is -- and floats peacefully to the ground. Pat: If his Patronus is a Phoenix, which Jo said it is, then his Animagus form would be a Phoenix, too, and that works. Works for flying away during the funeral, too. And there's Draught of the Living Dead, which we've never seen used... >bochoo continued: Harry "had known there was no hope from the moment the full Body-Bind Curse Dumbledore had placed on him lifted, known it could have happened only because its caster was dead..." >(page 608) Or, because Dumbledore himself released it as he landed gently on the ground and resumed his normal form. > > Later, Hagrid scoops Dumbledore up ...snip... and takes him somewhere...snip... and Snape, still loyal to DD, comes back around later and gives the antidote for the cave potion. >> > Also, notice the similarity in these descriptions: > > "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the > goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it..." (page 571) > "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." (page 595) > > These identical feelings of hatred and revulsion, in my opinion, were felt the same by Snape and Harry, not toward the man but rather > toward the deed at hand. > > ...snip...Poor old Snape...snip...forced to leave hogwarts...snip... > bohcoo Pat: I hadn't thought of a fake wand, but you may have put the last piece in the puzzle for me, because the rest of it was the same as I was thinking. I think Snape told Dumbledore about Draco's mission and the Unbreakable Vow, because Dumbledore dismissed or had no reaction to the things Harry was trying to tell him about this. I think Dumbledore had a plan to allow Draco to go into hiding, and Snape was in on it. I think many things that were only mentioned in previous books are going to play a role in book 7. Tons of them, like the locket, Lily's eyes, Viktor, SPEW, Harry's watch stopping in the lake, it goes on and on. As far as the fake wands, you could be right. The twins have everything from cute pets to defensive items the the MoM wants to use, so why not. I think Snape is mostly on his own side, and going back into Voldemort's service full time was not what he wanted to do. It's possible that's what he meant when he told Dumbledore he assumed too much. Anyone have a clue where that part is to get an exact quote? And speaking of the mystery that is Snape, in earlier books, we couldn't figure out why he was protecting Harry at Hogwarts, yet hated him. I haven't been able to keep up with a fraction of the Snape and Horcrux posts, but has it been discussed that if Harry is a Horcrux, Snape was protecting a Horcrux, and not necessarily Harry? And if so, we still wouldn't know if he wanted to, or was bound to do it. From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 05:59:00 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:59:00 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136520 bohcoo wrote: > In one of her numerous interviews Rowling mentioned that someone > manages to perform magic rather late in life, under dire circumstances. > > Did anyone else feel when Hagrid pointed his wonderful pink, flowery > umbrella at his flaming house to save his beloved Fang, and uttered the > charm, "Aguamenti," thus helping Harry to extinguish the blaze, that > this might be what she was making reference to? Pat: No, she gave an explanation of Hagrid, that he didn't complete his training, and shouldn't be using magic for that reason. He had Dumbledore's permission to use magic when going to tell Harry he's a wizard, but not on the return trip - remember he made fire in the grate shortly after he broke the door down on the rock? We also saw him go ask permission for a spell to protect roosters in COS. So I think he has limited knowledge, and needs some supervision. He has a wand, he would have gone through Hogwarts if it weren't for Tom Riddle. He's an incompletely trained wizard. From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Aug 5 06:46:53 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:46:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136521 Has anyone mentioned/noticed #2 yet? I hadn't noticed it and I thought it was really cool.... Clues that Harry and Ginny will become involved --- from The Half-Blood Prince. U.S. Scholastic Edition, July 2005. 1. Harry asks Ginny if she wants to find a compartment on the Hogwarts Express. Ginny says she can't; she needs to meet boyfriend Dean Thomas. "'Right,' said Harry. He felt a strange twinge of annoyance as she walked away, her long red hair dancing behind her; he had become so used to her presence over the summer that he had almost forgotten that Ginny did not hang around with him, Ron and Hermione while at school." 2. Harry is in his first Potions class of the term. He sits down by a "gold-colored cauldron that was emitting one of the most seductive scents Harry had ever inhaled: Somehow it reminded him simultaneously of treacle tart, the woody smell of a broomstick handle, and something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow." p. 183. We find out that the potion is Amortentia, the "most powerful love potion in the world" Hermione said '"it's supposed to smell differently to each of us, according to what attracts us, and I can smell freshly mown grass and new parchment and ----' But she turned slightly pink and did not complete the sentence." (p. 185) Then, Hermione, Ron and Harry are in the Great Hall at the Gryffindor table for dinner and "'Hang on,' said a voice close by Harry's left ear and he caught a sudden waft of that flowery smell he had picked up in Slughorn's dungeon. He looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them." (p. 192) Smell is one of the great indicators of erotic attraction .question, what was Hermione's third smell? Something that reminded her of Ron? Love to hear other's thoughts here.. p. 242. Harry asks Ginny to join him, R and H in Hogsmeade. Ginny refuses; she's going with Dean. p. 248. Harry's thoughts strayed to Ginny while walking back from Hogsmeade. He imagines her and Dean cosily closeted in Madam Puddifoots's, that haunt of happy couples .He scowls . p. 286. Harry and Ron surprise Dean and Ginny kissing ..something large and scaly erupts in Harry's stomach he wants to jinx Dean into jelly and wants to instantly dismiss Dean from the Quidditch team. p. 289. Harry feels dizzy, disoriented `"Harry, you've got a maggot in your hair,' said Ginny cheerfully, leaning across the table to pick it out; Harry felt goose bumps erupt up his neck that had nothing to do with the maggots." (p. 339) And so it goes... Susan McGee, who found #2 while reading the HBP to my 7 year old son... From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 06:53:54 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:53:54 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > Arthur does do things counter to Molly's wishes on a number of > occasions and almost all of them he does behind her back. Arthur and Molly have a fairly clear division of labor. She runs the household and has the final say on how to raise the kids. He brings in the bacon, works crazy hours and tinkers to his heart's desire with muggle stuff. We've never seen Molly complaining about his odd hours. She always has comfort and food ready whenever he comes. Likewise she raises no stink over his "toys" unless they are used illegally (e.g. flying car). So Arthur indeed defers to Molly when it's something related to handling of their underage kids (and Harry). Hers is the ultimate word in that area and I must say that usually her assessments are right on the mark. True she overprotects Harry but I can understand her desire to protect him if I don't always agree with her actions. Because of the above, the only times Arthur goes "behind her back" as you call it are the rare occasions when he strongly disagrees but feels that arguing the subject further will not do them any good. He had no problems standing up to Molly in OoP when Fred and George wanted to listen to Harry's debriefing in 12 Grimauldplace, because they were over 17 and thus out of Molly's jurisdiction. A few other cases is when his fascination with muggle stuff overrides his common sense. Molly explodes upon hearing he tried stiches and quite rightly so - it could have killed him. > I take offense to that remark. I guess I am for thinking that Molly > should treat Arthur with the same respect he treats her with. She respects him, no doubt, and when he puts his foot down, she lets him have his way. Theirs is the classic "assertive wife, quiet husband" marriage and it seems to suit them both. > Yeah, I don't like Hermione. I don't like her obnoxiousness over the > fake felix potion. I don't like her self importance. She has a lot of very justifyable confidence due to her strong intellect but also a strong sense of justice and morality, rare in kids her age. I loved the little scene in HBP where Ron kicks a younger student from the seat by the fire only to be kicked off in turn immediately by Hermione who then offers the other student back his seat. She definitely has good influence on Ron. > I don't like > the way she uses magically conjured birds to attack Ron for daring > to kiss another girl besides her. Those aren't the actions of an > assertive person, those are the actions of giant ^&^%* I think he deserved the birds since he did it to annoy her... > It's not his relationship with the kids that bothers me or her > disciplining of them. It's her treating Arthur like an extra child > and disciplining him. I've heard it on the list many times that > Arthur is like an extra child she's raising. That is demeaning to > him. He brought this treatment on his himself since he can be very irresponsible and hasty (stiches, car...). > I think the > Molly/Arthur relationship is a symptom of Rowling larger issues. As > I talked about in a previous post I think she is, in general, very > down on fathers. Her depiction of mothers and fathers leaves a lot to be desired. Mothers are all self sacrificing and loving. Fathers are either inept or downright abusive. I wonder if this comes from personal experience... Salit From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 5 06:58:22 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:58:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fake Wand = Fake Death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F30E0E.3030407@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136523 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" > wrote: > >>...snip..Has anyone considered the possibility that the wand used > > by Snape to "kill" Dumbledore might have been one of Fred's and > George's fake ones? These wands were introduced prominently and > mentioned repeatedly for a reason -- yet they have not played much > of a significant part in the plot so far... Those fake wands turn into rubber ducks or haddocks or something similar, once someone tries to cast a spell with them. I don't recall that happening on the tower ;-) digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0/63 - Release Date: 03/08/2005 From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 06:12:50 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 23:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: <1123118488.1450.87674.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050805061250.34590.qmail@web30013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136524 Del Wrote Remember why Ginny and Dean broke up? Because he always wanted to help Ginny through the portrait hole. Ginny hates that. I don't. It would never occur to me that this would be something so awful to a girl as to make her want to break up. Lynda says: I actually understand this. It has to do with her feeling independent. She can get through the portrait hole on her own, doesn't need a boy's help, even her boyfriend's. I can understand this because I am extremely independent and have been known to be...ah...touchy when someone tries to help me do something that I can do perfectly well on my own. An example would be that I live very close to the church I attend. I enjoy walking to and from church in nice weather, but there are some other church members who are bound and determined that I should not do this. I learned to somewhat gracefully accept rides from these very concerned ladies, but it took me a long time. I would much rather recieve help on something that I honestly have a problem with, not something I can do on my own without a problem. As for your problem of seeing the H/G relationship presented as mature, I can understand that. I work with kids and therefore see very few (if any) fictional or real romantic relationships of teenagers as being mature, but I also realized from the text and from comments JKR has made through the years that this relationship was going to be. And although a relationship is immature doesn't mean it can't/won't grow. Lynda DeColores From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 5 07:02:43 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:02:43 -0000 Subject: Fake Wand = Fake Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: bohcoo: > And lastly, the ta-da statement of the entire book: > > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." (page 591) Geoff: The problem here is that I cannot see this being a "ta-da" statement because of the questions which have arisen over this comment - namely, that it doesn't occur in the UK/Canadian editions. (HBP "The Lightning- Struck Tower" pp.552-553 UK edition) is where has been inserted in the US printings. Can it be such an important comment if it doesn't appear in the original script - which is how I would view the UK edition. Why was it changed for the US editions? "Curiouser and curiouser" said Alice. From arrafah at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 06:56:48 2005 From: arrafah at hotmail.com (khatimhamidon) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:56:48 -0000 Subject: Gobstones Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136526 Hi, Does anybody know just what do members of the Gobstones Club do? What is a Gobstone anyway? Something Potion-y? Eileen Prince was a member in HBP. It was also briefly mentioned in OotP, when Umbridge issued a decree to disband all clubs/associations/teams. singapotter From Nanagose at aol.com Fri Aug 5 07:26:18 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:26:18 -0000 Subject: Gobstones Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136527 > singapotter: > Does anybody know just what do members of the Gobstones Club do? What > is a Gobstone anyway? Something Potion-y? > > Eileen Prince was a member in HBP. It was also briefly mentioned in > OotP, when Umbridge issued a decree to disband all > clubs/associations/teams. Christina: According to the Harry Potter Lexicon, "Gobstones is a game involving stones played something like marbles, in which the stones spit disgusting liquid at the opposing player when they lose a point. There are Gobstone clubs at Hogwarts (OP17) and also an International Gobstones League (DP) Many of the kids at Hogwarts have a set of Gobstones and it's played fairly regularly (CS10, PA16, GF20). Harry was tempted to buy a solid gold set in Diagon Alley (PA4). The offices of the Official Gobstones Club are in the Department of Games and Sports on level seven of the Ministry of Magic (OP7)." Interesting that JRK would choose to have Eileen Prince associated with this particular pasttime (why not have her captain of the Quidditch team, or some kind of Wizard's Chess club for something more intellectual?). I also never realized that the game has been mentioned so many times throughout the series, although I suspect it's like the Every-Flavor Beans - nothing really significant, just a little detail to further set apart the WW and make it more fun. Christina From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 07:51:08 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:51:08 -0000 Subject: Slughorn - hiding more than meets the eye? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136528 hg: If Dumbledore was a new teacher when he went to the orphanage, it would be 1938 that he and Slughorn started teaching at Hogwarts together. 24 sounds a good age to get a teaching job, perhaps? His birthyear would be 1914, he'd be 57 in 1971, and goodness knows what was happening then. (Voldemort was getting powerful?) That would put his current age, by the way, at 82. Do the math in the reverse, speculating the locket was found in 1980 and he was 57, then he'd be 73 now, and the other lucky day would have been 1947. Not possible because he'd then have been 15 in 1938. One more little speculation: what if he aided Dumbledore in his defeat of Grindelwald? He'd have been 24 in 1945 and born in 1921; second day would be 1978 (?) and he'd be 75 now. vmonte: Grindelwald was defeated in 1945 by DD. Did DD then show up immediately afterwards at Hogwarts or was he already there and just took a side trip to defeat Grindelwald? What is the connection between Grindelwald and Voldemort? There are a few odd things about Slughorn's class that have been on my mind. 1. Why are we all of a sudden seeing the Draught of the Living Death potion? (The potion that Snape mentions in year one?) Why wasn't it used? I know this is a weird question but Harry always ends up using the spells, potions, and animals or creatures that are introduced in each book. Will it be used? 2. What is Slughorn going to do with all that spider venom? 3. Did you notice that Harry is learning more from Snape now that he is no longer the Potions Teacher? 4. Was there also a vat of polyjuice somewhere? I cannot remember if Draco brewed this himself, or whether it was in Slughorn's class? Was this really only used to turn Goyle, and the other thug, into girls? (Why show boys turning into girls? Will a girl, in book 7, turn into a boy? Let's just say that I'm going to become very suspicious if Harry gives Ginny a lock of his hair before the big Voldemort showdown.) There seems to have been really useful items that could've been used to save DD that were seemingly never used, why? 5. Why was Slughorn introduced into the story? Why does he never mention what Snape was like as a student? (I suppose Harry will look into Snape's past in the next book.) Was Slughorn introduced by JKR to show that not all Slytherin's are bad? (Sure, he still has Slytherin traits, but that does not necessarily mean that he is a DE.) 6. I like how Hermione mentions that all the time-turners were destroyed in the DoM. Were they? I'm sure there are more things to add. Sorry if I've repeated anything anyone might have mentioned. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 07:55:28 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:55:28 -0000 Subject: Fake Wand = Fake Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136529 "bohcoo" wrote: > Has anyone considered the possibility that the wand used by Snape > to "kill" Dumbledore might have been one of Fred's and George's fake > ones? > > Could this version of events be possible: Snape yells the Avada > Kedavra words to the heavens (which would be completely ineffective > without a real wand), points the fake wand at Dumbledore, and hits > him with a harmless green light beam and a built-in Wingardium > Leviosa spell.("Amuse your friends, scare your enemies -- try one of > our Wingardium Kedavra wands. By the time your attackers realize the > trick, you will have had time to make a clean escape.") > > After being hit, Dumbledore appears to be genuinely killed, flies up > in the air and falls "over the battlements and out of sight" (page > 596) -- where, unseen, he transforms into a wasp or bumblebee or > whatever his Animagus is -- and floats peacefully to the ground. > Thanks Bohcoo, I absolutely loved this post, although I really don't think it's a possibility, but can't you see the hate on Snapes face being about DD making him use a trick wand! However, don't think it's that easy to trick an Unbreakable Vow - DD is not dead, not no-how, not no-way. So Snape should be by now. Saraquel From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 07:58:51 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:58:51 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136530 Pat: On my re-read of HBP, I noticed that whenever Slughorn praised Harry for something in potions, it was because he had used advice from the Prince, and also that Slughorn credited it to Harry having inherited his mother's talents for potions. This means something along the lines that Lily and Snape knew the same kinds of tips and tricks. What do you think that means? They were in the same year, so maybe they were lab partners in potions class? Did one learn from the other, and if so, which way? I was wondering if there was a possiblity that Snape asked Voldemort not to kill Lily went he went to kill Harry. If he liked her, maybe he asked to spare her as a reward for having given Voldemort the prophecy, and would try to get her on their side for her talent with potions. Voldemort uses rewards with his minions, but I think there would have to be something in the deal for him as well. vmonte: I've been thinking that the healing spell that Snape used on Draco might be something that Snape learned from Lily. Are we going to come across a Lily spell book next? I wonder if Lily's patronus was a phoenix? Vivian From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 08:03:48 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:03:48 -0000 Subject: Gobstones Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spotsgal" wrote: > > singapotter: > > Does anybody know just what do members of the Gobstones Club do? >**snip**> > Eileen Prince was a member in HBP. ***snip**** > Christina: > > According to the Harry Potter Lexicon, "Gobstones is a game involving stones played something like marbles, in which the stones spit disgusting liquid at the opposing player when they lose a point. There are Gobstone clubs at Hogwarts (OP17) and also an International > Gobstones League **snip** The offices> of the Official Gobstones Club are in the Department of Games and > Sports on level seven of the Ministry of Magic (OP7)." > > Interesting that JRK would choose to have Eileen Prince associated > with this particular pasttime (why not have her captain of the > Quidditch team, or some kind of Wizard's Chess club for something more > intellectual?). **snip** I think Gobstones is something akin to muggle Pool/Snooker/Texas Hold'em Poker... If Snapes mum was as skilled an occlumens/leguimens as him it makes sense why she was president of the gobstones club, why she loved her son so much (inheriting her best qualities---not because of his own self)... And why Snape feels he must use his gifts to succeed in the WW. (since his mum married a muggle in the end---) Just what I think. Doddie (who wonders how snapes muggle dad spent all snapes mum's winnings) From literature_Caro at web.de Thu Aug 4 20:17:44 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:17:44 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Life debt In-Reply-To: References: <1229426775.20050804181518@web.de> Message-ID: <2510053541.20050804221744@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136532 > Could you please elaborate? I confess, the idea of a society with > the "life debt" as a sort of legal institution or any other kind of > convention is a complete revelation to me. > a_svirn Hi a_svirn! Sorry, I have forgotten where I heard of this (was several year ago), but I am very sure that this does/did exist (even forgot about the region and the time of the culture). Does anybody else have a clue about this? Caro From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 09:03:09 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:03:09 -0000 Subject: Slughorn - hiding more than meets the eye? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136533 Thanks for all your thoughts Hermione, great to get such a detailed reply, here's my responses: >saraquel: > Why is Slughorn so afraid at the beginning of the book that he has > spent a whole year in hiding We know that DD > wants something from Slughorn, but the Horcrux memory would not put > Slughorn in fear of his life from DD. Is DD being slightly sarcastic here, or is the question for real? Hermionegallo wrote: >>hg: >I think it's for real. He's hiding from Voldemort, yes, but >Dumbledore more so. My answer >is that I think he knows Dumbledore well enough to know that he asks >a lot of people, lay-your-life-on-the-line a lot, and even MORE of >his friends. I'd be willing to bet, even, that the time he quit >Hogwarts and the time of Lily and James' (and Regulus') deaths >coincided, and that Dumbledore has asked an awful lot of him before. Saraquel now: I liked this reasoning, that he has something real to fear from DD, although what more would DD be asking from him, other than the memory. But I suppose, if Slug is hanging around DD, LV really does have reason to believe, like you say, that he has told him about the Horcrux conversation. You're right about his retirement, if he was potions master, then that job was taken over by Snape in the year before James and Lily were killed. >saraquel: > Slughorn says he forgot to do the mark. Do we assume that he therefore knows > how to cast a Dark Mark? but it also indicates that he was not always openly anti- > DE. >hg: >This sheds a new light on my reading of Slughorn thus far. I have >been wondering about his motives -- is he really on Dumbledore's side >or not -- but I've been heavily leaning on him being a reliable, true >friend of Dumbledore, quite nearly an equal. Saraquel now: No I've never really thought that DD liked him very much and I don't think DD trusts him at all. Slughorn is too vulnerable to flattery and needing to be the centre of attention for DD to really be interested in him. That Slughorn trod a carefully balanced line during the first Voldemort years, I can well imagine. IMO, He would have tried to make sure that he remained in good contact with both sides, so that he could still have his pineapple regardless of who won. Going back to the time he retired, all the evidence from the Order suggests that LV was looking like he was going to win ? the `picking us off one at a time' remarks, suggest that LV had the upper hand. So, one wonders if Slughorn, having hedged his bets, thought it was about time to jump out of bed with DD and put some distance between himself and LVs enemies. At this point he becomes a collaborator with the DEs but he doesn't actually join them ? hence his remark to DD. Then LV apparently snuffs it at GH, so Slughorn is now doing another volt face. When DD comes along and asks him for memories about Tom Riddle when he was in the Slug Club, Slughorn really doesn't want to incriminate himself in any way, so does a bodge job on the Horcrux memory. One question here is, what prompted Slughorn to fiddle with the memory, shame or self preservation ? or a mixture of both? Was he ashamed that he almost sided with the enemy? Or was he morally ashamed. The jury is out for me on Slughorn's morals. I don't think he is an evil man, but I think that his morals come second to his comforts. >saraquel: > On page 69 DD probes for reasons, suggesting that > Slughorn's `considerable talents" would be a reason for the DEs to > come `recruiting'. >hg: >I read it that he was taking an opportunity to lavish praise to >soften him up. Saraquel now: Hmmm, hadn't thought of that one, good thinking. saraquel: > DD has put the ring on especially for the >visit. >hg: > Dumbledore, addressing >Slughorn's comment that Dumbledore should consider retiring, >says, "you're quite right." When he extends the other hand, he >says, "on the other hand..." On this "other hand" is the ring, and >seated AT this other hand is Harry. Dumbledore is saying that I've >found this ring, you know who it belonged to, it was a Horcrux and I >destroyed it, and here sits Harry Potter, we're going to get >Voldemort for sure, so I really, really need you, Horace. Saraquel now: Yes, nice observation, and I've also just had the thought that DD really, really, really wants the memory and no way does he want Slughorn to fall into enemy hands. saraquel: > Speculation time: > Now, whoever stashed the false!locket found out about LVs Horcruxes > and about the cave. I'm very pulled to the opinion that Regulus was either >someone's stooge, or took someone very talented with him. >hg: >I see where you're going and I'm intrigued and repulsed >simultaneously. It still doesn't have to be Slughorn, but I LOVE >that the bowl would have to be refilled. This lends credence to some >speculation that Snape accompanied Regulus. Saraquel now: Oh I was so hoping for a Snape free post :-) > hg: >I don't think it of necessity would have to rule out Snape. It may >in fact be convincing evidence that it is Snape. It might be more >fuel to his fire of wanting recognition. Or it might have been his >gesture when leaving the Death Eaters of severing his ties with >Voldemort. Or a way of stripping Voldemort of some of his power, >without Voldemort being the wiser, and then letting Regulus die for >it. Saraquel now: Point taken, At the moment I belong to the Snape's-only-in-it-for- himself camp, and would not put it past him to let or even force, RAB to take the fall. The question is, when in the James/Lily timeline did RAB take the locket and disappear from view. In OotP p104, Sirius says Regulus died 15 years ago. Which would mean he died around the time Harry was born, Just over a year before GH and around the time Snape found out about the prophecy and claimed to switch sides. Before, DD went fishing for Slughorn's memories. An interesting little aside here, is what Slughorn says right at the end of HBP after Snape has killed DD p585 "Snape!" ejaculated Slughorn, who looked the most shaken, pale and sweating. `Snape! I taught him! I thought I knew him!" So from this, do we assume that Slughorn has always thought Snape was on the side of good or are there other explanations for him being so shaken? He is remembering the Snape he taught at school, it sounds as though he is basing his judgement from that time. The "I thought I knew him!" is the sort of thing you say when you are mistaken in someone and then go back in your mind to see what you have told them in the past. >saraquel: It still does not answer the question > about how Slughorn/Regulus knew about the cave. Who knew about the > cave??????? >hg: How WOULD Regulus have found out about the cave, anyway? Saraquel now: Yep, we're still stuck with that one! And in the past, I've had all sorts of thoughts (and some posts) about whether the whole cave scene was ever a real Horcrux at all, whether it's just a training exercise for Harry .. Yes, but let's not go there unless we absolutely have to. I can't wait for the chapter discussion on the Cave!! As for the FF stuff, it feels like it should be relevant, but no real joy so far. Saraquel From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 5 09:20:38 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:20:38 -0400 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? Message-ID: <006401c5999e$f2271fe0$02c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136534 Don't forget, that as much as Harry loathes Draco Malfoy, he was absolutely horrified when he saw what the Sectumsempra spell did when he used it on Draco. " 'No,' gasped Harry. ... 'No -- I didn't --' " " 'I'm not defending what I did!' said Harry quickly. 'I wish I hadn't done it, and not just because I've got about a dozen detentions. You know I wouldn't've used a spell like that, *not even on Malfoy*...' " Much as Harry *hates* Draco, he doesn't want to see him dead...particularly not at his own hand. CathyD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 5 09:34:07 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:34:07 -0400 Subject: Is DD dead? Message-ID: <006801c599a0$d46a98e0$02c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136535 highlanderx54 said: >>I was thinking about what DD said to Harry one time when Harry asked if LV was gone forever and DD said to Harry there are other ways that he can come back. I was wondering if anybody else thought that maybe DD knew of ways to come back. Just a thought. CathyD now: "'Well, Voldemort's going to try other ways of coming back, isn't he? I mean, he hasn't gone, has he?' ;No, Harry, he has not. He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share ... not being truly alive, he cannot be killed.'" I think, even as early as PS, Dumbledore had some ideas of why Voldemort didn't die at Goderic's Hollow. Voldemort said, "Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive, and without the means to help myself ... for I had no body, and *every spell* which might have helped me require the use of a wand...." Dumbledore said, at the end of GOF that "No *spell* can reawaken the dead." As far as Dumbledore is concerned, he is dead, IMO. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samwisep at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 09:35:57 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:35:57 -0000 Subject: Slughorn-He knows too much! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136536 Hi Potterphiles! I was reading a post this morning concerning Slughorn and his possiable DE affiliations. I tried to read the post carefully, but with a 21 month old shoving toys in my lap, it was hard to concentrate. LOL I hope this wasn't brought up before, but I think the reason why Slughorn is SO afraid the Death Eater's might get him, is because since LV asked him about the horocrux. So it stands to reason Slughorn might remember that, thus Voldie's little secret would be out, enabling the OOP to start looking for the horocrux. So I think LV wanted to kill Slughorn to shut him up. Like a murder killing off all witnesses. I hope no one eles posted this theory..like I said, I did try to read through them carefully! Snapeo'phile From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 5 09:41:22 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:41:22 -0400 Subject: Hagrid's Magic Message-ID: <006c01c599a1$d7a24ed0$02c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136537 bohcoo said: >>In one of her numerous interviews Rowling mentioned that someone manages to perform magic rather late in life, under dire circumstances. Did anyone else feel when Hagrid pointed his wonderful pink, flowery umbrella at his flaming house to save his beloved Fang, and uttered the charm, "Aguamenti," thus helping Harry to extinguish the blaze, that this might be what she was making reference to? CathyD now: No, I don't think it's Hagrid. Hagrid, in this scene, had already removed Fang from the burning hut. He and Harry were just dousing the fire. Besides, Hagrid has been doing quite a bit of magic all along. Certainly, at times, he's gone to Dumbledore to ask permission (the spell on the chicken coop), but he didn't always, I don't think (the engorgement charm on the pumpkins). Hagrid's not allowed to use magic *strictly speaking* but while he's at Hogwarts, there is so much magic going on that no one (from the Ministry if they're even watching Hogwarts) would be able to tell who did the magic. I think we are yet to see the 'magic late in life' JKR mentions in that interview. I think it will be, in the next book, someone like Filch, or Arabella Fig, perhaps even Petunia, doing something in a drastic moment to save someone. It will be a one time burst, IMO. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 5 10:28:48 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:28:48 -0000 Subject: Gobstones Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spotsgal" > wrote: > > > singapotter: > > > Does anybody know just what do members of the Gobstones Club do? > >**snip**> > Eileen Prince was a member in HBP. # > > Christina: > > > > According to the Harry Potter Lexicon, "Gobstones is a game > involving stones played something like marbles, in which the stones > spit disgusting liquid at the opposing player when they lose a point. > There are Gobstone clubs at Hogwarts (OP17) and also an International > > Gobstones League Doddie: > I think Gobstones is something akin to muggle Pool/Snooker/Texas > Hold'em Poker... Geoff: When I was a kid, real world Gobstones was a popular game often played on theschool playground or around at home. I can't remember all the rules, but you had five cube-shaped stones, about three quarters of an inch along each edge. They were usually all different colours. IIRC, the idea was to have four spread out on the ground and you threw one up, grabbed another (with the throwing hand) while the first was in the air and then caught the first. Then you threw both in the air and tried to grab a third and so on. When it went pear- shaped (as it usually did!), someone else had a turn. Very low-tech, cheap but fun in the days before computers, when not everybody had a TV set and you made your own fun with games you played together. Obviously,the Wizarding world took the game to new heights..... Geoff From samwisep at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 10:48:23 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:48:23 -0000 Subject: Was Snape ever loved? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136540 ("Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. Im a Prince :)" Cheryl I think this is an excellent theory, with only one complication. When Harry is in the library with his copy of Advance Potions, Irma Pince sees it and goes ballistic, thinking he had defaced the book. If,as some theories suggest, Snape's mother wrote the potion revisions in the book, she surely would have recognized the book and/or her handwriting(if she was Snape's mother) now, on the other hand, she could be Snape's mother and HE(maybe with some Lily help?)wrote the revisions(in which case she would have been oblivious and still thought Harry had defaced it) I think Irma Prince( I'm a prince)Is just the type of play on words that JKR likes, so it is a really,really good theory! Snapeo'phile From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 12:07:28 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 05:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gobstones Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805120728.56932.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136541 Christina: > Interesting that JRK would choose to have Eileen > Prince associated > with this particular pasttime (why not have her > captain of the > Quidditch team, or some kind of Wizard's Chess club > for something more > intellectual?). Marozi: "Gobstones Club" sounds like the nerdiest possible extracurricular activity that Hogwarts has to offer. You're right, it doesn't even have the intellectual arrogance of Chess Club. Honestly, I think JKR was basically trying to communicate that Snape's geekitude was hereditary. I don't think it usually works that way in real life, but the Prince DNA evidently carries some sort of uncool gene. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 12:21:31 2005 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:21:31 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily In-Reply-To: <20050723134716.42914.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, laurie goudge wrote: > I have always entertained the idea that snape DID > probably care about someone else despite him being the > 'in it for yourself' type of personality. and I always > envisioned it was Lilly that he had feelings for. I am > the kinda snape/lilly shipper that beleives it was an > unrequited love where lilly didn't return snapes > affections for what ever reason and this added to > snapes bitterness and increasing his hatred when lilly > went for james and not him > > laurie > I agree that Snape had feelings for Lilly. I will even speculate that he was in love with her, though it was unrequited as you said. Their shared excellence in potions, the way she came to the rescue when he was being picked on, and his intense hate for James ('the show off') I think could be signs of this. I think in spite of himself, and in spite of her being a mudblood, he couldn't help his feelings. Love seems to be the theme - the thing that Voldermort lacks. Perhaps the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape was because what he deeply regretted was being involved with the death of someone he loved - Lilly. Perhaps only Dumbledore knew this about him. Lilly did not have to be killed - she sacrificed herself for her son. Is this another reason for Snape to resent Harry? Is this reason enough for Dumbledore to trust Snape's repentance? QOE From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 12:25:28 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:25:28 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bennetfan101" wrote: > Hee, those were two of my very favourite moments in the books. Harry > has already been set up as loving his friends and mentors very > strongly, and really all that is left is whether or not he will be > able to love his enemies. Tom Riddle and Draco Malfoy are indicators > of his learning to do this eventually, but I personally think that > the > biggest hurdle will be Snape. Snape seems to have so much to do with > Harry in the series; JKR has now confirmed that the Harry/Snape > vendetta is much more personal than Voldemort/Harry. This is > understandable; in Harry's mind, to date, Snape has helped cause the > deaths of Sirius, James, Lily, Dumbledore...it seems as though his > reasons for hating Snape are piling up by the year. And yet Snape is > clearly going to be a very big figure in this war somehow; if he can > kill Dumbledore before Harry's eyes and STILL remain as ambiguous as > he is, we know he has to be really important. So I would totally be > unsurprised if compassion for Snape actually happened to be the sort > of love required from Harry to defeat Voldemort. It's stretching, but > it would be a good message to portray...of course, they'll have to > resolve a heck of a lot before it comes to this...-_-* Marianne: I'd like to add to this thought that Harry has already had at least the tinglings of empathy for Snape. When he entered Snape's memories in OoP he did not returen gloating over Snape's experiences. He may not have felt pity, but I think he certainly emphathized with Snape's mistreatment, and felt bad about it. He was certainly appalled by James' and Sirius' actions. Of course, Snape seemed sure that Harry was going to blab about this to all of his friends, once again assuming that Harry is James, jr. (Really, with all of Molly's and Hermione's going on about Sirius confusing Harry with James in that book, it sure seems like the one most assuming the two are exactly the same kind of person is Snape!) From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 5 12:36:08 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:36:08 -0000 Subject: Gobstones Club In-Reply-To: <20050805120728.56932.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Madam Marozi wrote: > > Marozi: > > "Gobstones Club" sounds like the nerdiest possible > extracurricular activity that Hogwarts has to offer. > You're right, it doesn't even have the intellectual > arrogance of Chess Club. Honestly, I think JKR was > basically trying to communicate that Snape's geekitude > was hereditary. I don't think it usually works that > way in real life, but the Prince DNA evidently carries > some sort of uncool gene. actually, I think the game of Gobstones must be pretty cool in the WW world - Harry wanted to buy a solid gold set and there are signs that gobstones is played throughout the school - old sets and such. I think Gobstones is like poker - it is cool to know how to play poker, look at the programs on TV that show a bunch of people playing poker. Was Eileen a nerd? Don't know. Is Snape a nerd? Yes. But once you become an adult, those lines between geekdom & the *cooldom* become very blurred. I was a nerd in highschool - I am the height of kewldom in my nieces & nephews. who are teens right now. colebiancardi From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 12:43:07 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:43:07 -0000 Subject: Slughorn-He knows too much! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136545 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: SNIP I think the reason why Slughorn is SO afraid the Death Eater's might get him, is because since LV asked him about the horocrux. So it stands to reason Slughorn might remember that, thus Voldie's little secret would be out, enabling the OOP to start looking for the horocrux. So I think LV wanted to kill Slughorn to shut him up. Like a murder killing off all witnesses. Snapeo'phile ---- I agree that Voldemort would be happy to have Slughorn out of the way to keep him from telling about their little Horcrux-chat. But in that case - wouldn't Voldemort have tried killing Slughorn way back? I mean - when did Voldemort first start out creating the Horcruxes? Probably around the age of 16? That was a long, long time ago - and Slughorn must have known ever since then..... Has Slughorn been in hiding from Voldemort that long (lurking out when Voldemort disappeared in '81) ? Inge From joj at rochester.rr.com Fri Aug 5 12:54:52 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:54:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136546 wrote: > Smell is one of the great indicators of erotic attraction .question, > what was Hermione's third smell? Something that reminded her of Ron? > Love to hear other's thoughts here.. Joj: I also wonder what Hermione's third smell is. It's obviously something that reminds her of Ron. Teenage boys don't usually smell good, unless Ron wears aftershave or something. `"Harry, you've got a maggot in your hair,' said Ginny > cheerfully, leaning across the table to pick it out; Harry felt goose > bumps erupt up his neck that had nothing to do with the maggots." (p. > 339) Joj: Maybe it's just me, but how sad that one of Harry and Ginny's few "moments" of actually inteacting in the book was of Ginny picking a maggot out of Harry's hair. A MAGGOT! And Jo had to use the word maggot twice in that paragraph. I guess the word doesn't bother Jo, or maybe other people who don't bring out their own trash, but yuck, yuck, yuck! From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 13:10:45 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:10:45 -0000 Subject: Fred and George (was: In defense of Molly) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bennetfan101" wrote: > The twins are huge favourites of mine, but this particular scene has > allways been one that I've been torn about. On the one hand, I can > appreciate that they were showing their love for Harry, but in such > a hostile way. The problem with the twins is that they have never, > EVER been forced to face consequences for their actions. Either > someone is there to clean up after them, or they don't particularly > care about the people they are victimizing (and thus, consequences > less than death/serious injury have no effect on them). It sort of > reminds me of the Marauders. > > bennetfan101 There have been parallels drawn in the books between the Twins and the Marauders - use of the Map being one. During the conversation in the Three Broomsticks (POA, p. 204, US paperback), McGonnagal and Hagrid make another: "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang... I don't think we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers -" "I dunno," chuckled Hagrid. "Fred and George Weasley could give 'em a run fer their money." As far as consequences for their actions, I'm concerned that we'll see some in the last book. After all, they are making items for the Ministry, which would make them a target for DE's wanting that part of their business to stop. We also know that they sold items that were later used against the Good Guys, with very likely consequences to come (HBP, US ed. p. 618): "- Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder," said Ron bitterly. "Fred and George's. I'm going to be having a word with them about who they let buy their products." I bet Ron won't be the only one having a word. Regardless of who speaks to them, at some point it seems that someone will hold them at least partially responsible for the events of that night. Lorel From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 13:14:13 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:14:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136548 Joj: Maybe it's just me, but how sad that one of Harry and Ginny's few "moments" of actually inteacting in the book was of Ginny picking a maggot out of Harry's hair. A MAGGOT! And Jo had to use the word maggot twice in that paragraph. I guess the word doesn't bother Jo, or maybe other people who don't bring out their own trash, but yuck, yuck, yuck! vmonte: I associate maggots with death. Maybe this is symbolic of something. Will Ginny have something to do with saving Harry in the next book. "The power the Dark Lord knows not..." :) Vivian From rt11guru at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 13:12:28 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 06:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805131228.69559.qmail@web52905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136549 williamhause2000 wrote: > 5 - Nevel will remeber where one of the Horcrux's is! His parents > were tortured to get that info but they did not give in. Nevel > can't remember things because he had a memory spell put on him. > There's another possibility for a horcrux that is a living entity -- Neville's toad. Is there any canon on its history? Guru __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From samwisep at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 13:49:01 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:49:01 -0000 Subject: Slughorn-He knows too much! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136550 > SNIP > I think the reason why Slughorn is SO afraid the Death Eater's might > get him, is because since LV asked him about the horocrux. Snapeo'phile> > I agree that Voldemort would be happy to have Slughorn out of the way > to keep him from telling about their little Horcrux-chat. > But in that case - wouldn't Voldemort have tried killing Slughorn way > back? I mean - when did Voldemort first start out creating the > Horcruxes? Probably around the age of 16? That was a long, long time > ago - and Slughorn must have known ever since then..... Has Slughorn > been in hiding from Voldemort that long (lurking out when Voldemort > disappeared in '81) ? > > Inge Is it possiable that VL wasn't concerned about anyone finding the horocruxs, and so didn't worry about Slughorn. But after he found out one of his horocruxes had already been destroyed(ie:the diary, even though it was an accident) he started getting more concerned and decided that Slughorn had to go? Snapeo'phile From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 14:03:05 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:03:05 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Amortentia smells (was: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136551 Susan McGee wrote: "2. We find out that the potion is Amortentia, the "most powerful love potion in the world" Hermione said '"it's supposed to smell differently to each of us, according to what attracts us, and I can smell freshly mown grass and new parchment and ----' But she turned slightly pink and did not complete the sentence." (p. 185) Smell is one of the great indicators of erotic attraction .question, what was Hermione's third smell? Something that reminded her of Ron? Love to hear other's thoughts here.." Del replies: I found Hermione's smells very interesting. 1. Freshly mown grass. That's something that I really wouldn't have expected. It's also something that most probably reminds her of home, of either herself or one of her parents mowing the lawn on Saturday morning, or something like that. I found that little bit quite endearing and quite informative. 2. New parchment. Now that one is very significant for me. Many people have stated that Hermione is in love with books, but this bit contradicts this. It's not the smell of old books that she likes, but the smell of new parchment. That's not the same thing at all. Old books, to me, suggest knowledge and passivity, someone sitting in a library for hours on end, while a new parchment suggests to me creativity and activity, someone writing or drawing or making plans. Not at all the same. This bit confirms me in my belief that Hermione's love of learning is not an end in itself. It's only a means to do what she really loves: *do* stuff, whether by reproducing or by inventing. Hermione is not learning for the sake of learning, she's learning for the sake of making life (hers and that of all those she cares about) better and easier. We don't see her showing off her knowledge just for the sake of showing what she can do (unlike the Twins and their overuse of Apparition in OoP, for example), but we do see her using her knowledge to arrange things or to make them easier (making the snow melt in front of the Trio so they don't freeze, enchanting the DA Galleons, repairing stuff, preparing the essence of Murtlap for Harry, and so on). As such it makes complete sense to me that she would love the smell of new parchment. 3. The mysterious smell. I agree that it is most probably something that reminds her of Ron. My bet goes to the "unusual perfume" that Ron offered her at the previous Christmas. Del From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 14:05:06 2005 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:05:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: <20050805061250.34590.qmail@web30013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova wrote: > > Del Wrote > Remember why Ginny and Dean broke up? Because he always wanted to help > Ginny through the portrait hole. Ginny hates that. I don't. It would > never occur to me that this would be something so awful to a girl as > to make her want to break up. > > Lynda says: > I actually understand this. It has to do with her feeling independent. She can get through the portrait hole on her own, doesn't need a boy's help, even her boyfriend's. I can understand this because I am extremely independent and have been known to be...ah...touchy when someone tries to help me do something that I can do perfectly well on my own. I hardly think that the single moment going through the portrait hole was the reason ginny and dean split, It was just the thing that pushed Ginny to do what she was probably thinking of doing in the first place. Hermione even tells Harry that Dean and Ginny have been "rocky for ages". But the moment does speak of Ginny's independance and why I think she and Harry are so attracted to each other. Ginny has always liked Harry, but when she was younger she was too nervous around him. It wasn't untill she became more confident and secure (more herself) that Harry began to take notice. The Ginny in HBP is far different than insecure Ginny in COS. Ginny is now a young lady who isn't afraid to speak her mind, who is brave, and who is capable. Her personality seems to mirror Harry's in many ways. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 5 14:15:42 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:15:42 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136553 Carol: And we know that it was Kreacher who told Voldemort of the bond between Harry and his godfather. Pippin: One very important fact needs to be added to this excellent analysis. Kreacher did not report directly to Voldemort. His conduit was Narcissa. So... if Snape is lying about being the source of the information about Sirius, and he obviously is, it can only be with Narcissa's collusion. Snape must be also be sure that Bella has not been told about Kreacher. That can only be the case if *no one* in Voldemort's camp knows about Kreacher, except Narcissa herself. I can see her whispering the information to Lucius as some bit of gossip she picked up somewhere. This means that the encounter at Spinner's End cannot have been Snape and Narcissa's first discussion of Draco's plight. Narcissa's performance reeks of bad acting (though some fans have been more inclined to blame bad writing.) But Jo has played that trick on us before, at the end of CoS, where Ginny dissolved in a flood of OOC tears and claimed to have had no knowledge that the Diary was dangerous. A lie, of course, since she tried to destroy it and then stole it back from Harry. That opens the possibility that the Unbreakable Vow was planned in advance as well. What if it was suggested originally not by Snape or by Narcissa but by Dumbledore himself, as a way to ensure that Snape would be able to keep watch over Draco without Voldemort calling him off? But Dumbledore, being far cleverer than the ordinary man, makes mistakes that are correspondingly huger. He did not foresee that Narcissa, in her great fear for Draco, would compel Snape to vow to carry out the task if Draco failed. I don't think either Snape or Narcissa knew exactly what Draco had been told to do. I think Draco had been bragging, the way he was with Pansy, and sneaking off to secret meetings with Bella as he was with Borgin, in a way that troubled Narcissa enough to take her suspicions to Snape. If Narcissa had known for sure what Draco was supposed to do, she wouldn't have been afraid that it was a trap, she would have been sure of it. However I think both she and Snape suspected that Dumbledore was the target, and that became certain after Draco's train-stomp. If Draco had wanted to kill Harry, he could have. It is after all this that Dumbledore starts teaching Harry about the horcruxes. I think Dumbledore thought he and Snape could outwit the vow, but even if they did, it would have to *look* as though Dumbledore had died at Snape's hands, or Voldemort would kill Snape for his disloyalty. Whatever happened,Harry would have to continue the hunt on his own. I don't think Dumbledore planned to die that night. But Snape would know, being the potions master, the signs that someone was in extremis from poisoning. At the time when Snape arrived on the tower, he was out of choices. If he tried to save Dumbledore, the vow would kill him, Dumbledore would still die, and Harry would be left paralyzed and helpless on top of the tower with four DE's, none of whom were so keen on following Voldemort's orders that they could be trusted to leave Harry alone. And yes, I think Snape knew that Harry was there. He could certainly see the other broom as well as Draco did. Pippin From feenyjam at msu.edu Fri Aug 5 14:16:47 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:16:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136554 Marianne S. said: > I wonder, then, could Dumbledore have already been dying (from the injury relating to the ring[my insert])? Could Snape have known that whatever was in that ring was, in fact, slowly killing Dumbledore? > So I wonder... is Snape himself in on this plan? Surely if Harry is going to go after horcruxes that are guided by terrible, terrible poisons and curses... he's going to need The Half Blood Prince's wisdom with potions. Greenfirespike says: The key question are. 1) Does Snape know about the horcruxes? 2) Does Snape know/is he suspicious that DD (and now Harry) are after them? 3) Does Snape know how many there are? 4) Does LV know DD was/Harry is after the horcruxes? 1) Does Snape know about the horcruxes? We don't have direct evidence that he knows. So, how can he find out? A) DD tells him and we don't know yet. B) LV tells him and we don't know yet. C) Snape does a little Occlumency on either DD, LV, or Harry as he flees with Draco. D) Snape figures it out because DD has to tell him information about the ring in order to help save his own life. E) Snape puts it together from his general involvement with LV and his knowledge of the dark arts. F) (Rework E) Snape knows because of his general involvement with LV, knowledge of the dark arts, and because LV sends Snape into Hogwarts not just to spy, but to also acquire artifacts from the house founders. I think the best evidence supports B or E. I am without my books presently, so I may be incorrect, but I believe that during the graveyard scene in GoF, LV rants a little to the present DEs, and says something along the lines of you all doubted me, you, who knew of the steps I had taken to avoid death. (PLEASE forgive any massive misquote, and correct if you know) I think we would all like to know a little bit more about how LV runs the show. Does he share his plans with all of his top persons, or does he hide it? Spinner's End seems to imply (despite what Snape says) that LV only tells persons involved about the plans. 2) Does Snape know/is he suspicious that DD (and now Harry) are after them? Once again, this all depends on how much information DD gives Snape about the ring, how much LV told his DE's about his plans for immortality, and Snape's general knowledge of the dark arts. 3) Does Snape know how many there are? My bet is that he doesn't know. It is what gives Harry time. 4) Does LV know DD was/Harry is after the horcruxes? My bet is also that he doesn't know. But he might find out pretty soon. My only problem with him not knowing is that part of his soul was destroyed with the ring, and LV doesn't feel a thing that we know about. But if he felt it, he knows the search is on. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 14:18:20 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:18:20 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved.. In-Reply-To: <42.6e967163.3024568d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136555 Rebecca wrote: > Did she [JKR] mean that Voldemort's > nastiness was more excusable than > Snape's bullying behaviour? No, after HBP Snape's bullying behavior that we once thought of as so important has been reduced to trivial insignificance. Before HBP Snape was just very unpleasant, but now he is much more than that. I believe what she meant was that Voldemort's nastiness was more excusable than Snape murdering Dumbledore. Julie says: > While there's no excuse for > Voldemort's actions Obviously. > they are far more evil than > Snape's (so far as we know) Before HPB I would agree, but not now. Not now. Eggplant From personal.venus at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 14:28:32 2005 From: personal.venus at gmail.com (anasazi_pr) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:28:32 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_SHIP:_=93Emma=94,_Twists,_and_HBP?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136556 Pat, I really love your analysis. But I think we are forgetting two things: 1) Unlike Emma, Harry Potter is a children's book 2) JK Rowling is no Jane Austen I can only wish it wasn't like this, not because of the shipping angle, but because I think the HP books lack both in subtletly and in emotional layers, something JA excelled at. But is more than highly unlikely, specially after the interviews. To pull a twist like that in the seventh book after that interview will be cruel to both camps in the shipping wars. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 5 14:44:02 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:44:02 -0000 Subject: Eileen Prince Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136557 Eileen Prince Snape What do we know about Snape's mother? HBP ch 25: "The picture showed a skinny girl of around fifteen. She was not pretty; she looked simultaneously cross and sullen, with heavy brows and a long, pallid face. Underneath the photograph was the caption: Eileen Prince, Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones team." Eileen is Irish for Helen which means "light" or "a torch". The legendary Helen was also known for her beauty. Eileen was a witch at Hogwarts. In spite of the one photo in which she looks both sullen and cross, she seems to have enough about her to be the captain of a competitive team. That means she's good at it, and she works well with others to the point that she is in a leadership position in her 5th year. The match was important enough to be covered by "The Prophet" even if the article was boring to Harry. Was this an inter-school Gobstone competition, or an inter-school multi-activity competition? Perhaps at the same time there were chess matches, Quidditch games, dueling competitions? What other schools were there? Who did she meet? Could she have met one of Krum's relatives? His grandfather is probably around Eileen's age. Did he ever mention that his grandfather played Gobstones? I'm just thinking that Krum was "hawk- nosed" and so was his father, and so was the man in Snape's memory. Oh, never mind that line of thought. Why would a young witch look sullen and cross when she's at an inter- school competition? That's a big deal! She should have been happy to be there. Did her team lose? Was the object of her affections snogging someone else? If I've worked it out right, Eileen's time at Hogwarts likely overlapped with Tom Riddle, Minerva McGonagall and Hagrid. She would have had Dumbledore and Slughorn for teachers. She must have been around 30 when Severus was born, but we don't know how long she had been married. So she's no Helen. Not only does Harry note that she was not pretty, Ron comments on it later. Her temperament might not be too pleasant but we have conflicting evidence. Her name means light but is she a Dark Witch? (Think Lucius.) She had opportunity to meet wizards from other countries yet she married a Muggle. She wasn't in hiding, nor did she marry in secret. Both the wedding and later the birth of her son were in "The Prophet". We have other bits and pieces, but we're not certain how they fit. We have memories that Harry saw in Occlumency of a dark room and flies, and of a man shouting at a woman. We don't know if Spinner's End is just a current work place for Snape, or if it belongs to him. Nor do we know if it's the home he lived in as a youth. It matches the description of the place the teenage Severus was in when he was killing flies. So either it is his childhood home, or we're supposed to think it is. So, let's go with that idea. There are all sorts of stories in which a spinner with the help of magic marries a prince. Here we have an address near a spinning mill where a Muggle spinner marries a magical Prince. (On top of all the other assumptions, I assume Tobias works at the mill.) Can Eileen be working Dark Magic in this Muggle home, or did Spinner's End belong to Eileen all along? We've seen other Dark Wizarding homes in the middle of Muggle neighborhoods. Is Eileen a Dark Witch or does someone else teach Severus the Dark Arts? Who is the Shouting Man? Given his description he appears to be related to Snape. His father or grandfather? It's hard to understand how a Muggle could stand up to and frighten a witch. Maybe Severus gets his courage from his father. Perhaps Tobias has finally learned about the magic. Seems too similar to Riddle's family for me. As easy as it would be to think that Grandfather Prince was the shouting man, there still leaves the question, "Why was he shouting?" Neither the marriage nor the child was secret. Was something else going on? Has Eileen made a deal involving her son and now she has to give him up? (Think Rumplestilskin and spinning.) Or have I gone way too far from the real story to discover a bit of back-story for an unimportant character yet again? Potioncat, ever curious. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 5 15:16:44 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:16:44 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Magic In-Reply-To: <006c01c599a1$d7a24ed0$02c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136558 > CathyD now: > > ... Hagrid has been doing quite a bit of magic all along. Certainly, at times, he's gone to Dumbledore to ask permission (the spell on the chicken coop), but he didn't always, I don't think (the engorgement charm on the pumpkins). Hagrid's not allowed to use magic *strictly speaking* but while he's at Hogwarts, there is so much magic going on that no one (from the Ministry if they're even watching Hogwarts) would be able to tell who did the magic. > aussie: IMHO, I think JKR likes to use Hagrid to bring in Magical Creatures and their uses. To reduce Hagrid to another 'swish and flick'-er takes away many the magical moments that only a "Fantastic Beast" can supply. Hagrid's amazing ability to withstand many curses hurled at him (from Umbridge in OOTP and escaping DE in HBP) may finally be discovered to come from a GRAPHORN or ERUMPENT skin lining of his overcoat. Hagrid's first conversation with Harry included Harry asking how Hagrid got to the rocky island. "Flew" was all Hagrid said. So a THESTRAL or HIPPOGRIFF may have helped. Hagrid's "pets are so daunting that "Fluffy" was used as the first line of defence in guarding the PS/SS. Hagrid use "foolish wand-waving"? Only when he wants to resort to boring and mundane methods. -aussie- From zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 11:24:38 2005 From: zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com (zeldaricdeau) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:24:38 -0000 Subject: Madam Pince (was: Was Snape ever loved?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136559 Hello with my first post to the group :). *First Cheryl*: ("Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. Im a Prince :)" *Then Samantha*: I think this is an excellent theory, with only one complication. When Harry is in the library with his copy of Advance Potions, Irma Pince sees it and goes ballistic, thinking he had defaced the book. If, as some theories suggest, Snape's mother wrote the potion revisions in the book, she surely would have recognized the book and/or her handwriting (if she was Snape's mother) now, on the other hand, she could be Snape's mother and HE (maybe with some Lily help?) wrote the revisions (in which case she would have been oblivious and still thought Harry had defaced it) I think Irma Prince (I'm a prince)is just the type of play on words that JKR likes, so it is a really, really good theory! *Now zeldaricdeau*: Firstly, out of curiosity, do we know for sure that Irma is Madam Pince's first name? Sorry, but I can't seem to remember where it was mentioned. I really hope it is though, just for this theory! Secondly, this topic came up on another HP group recently and I have to say it sounds highly plausible. Even Madam Pince's response to the HBP's potion book seems to support it in my mind. What purpose did her outburst at that particular point serve? Simply to tell us that she is rather obsessive about her library books? Personally, I suspect it must have more meaning: We know that the book is a 50 some year old edition. That means it may well have first come to the school about 50 years ago when Eileen Prince was in school. I'd say that there is extremely strong evidence to support the belief that Snape comes from a poor family and would probably have had to use second hand books at school. If his mother married a muggle, even lived in a muggle area, and may have had an abusive husband who may have reacted threateningly against her using magic, perhaps she kept her books as a kind of memento and allowed Severus as a child (as has been suggested several times now) to read through them. He therefore would have brought them to school instead of buying new ones or other second hand editions. Now, maybe Eileen was never proud of her son's foray deep into the Dark Arts. Maybe she didn't realize, until it was too late, how deep he had fallen in. Perhaps she discovered the book at some point and was shocked at some of the Dark Magic he was creating. If strained enough emotionally, I can imagine her seeing the defacing of her old book in such a way as a kind of desecration or befouling. Seeing it again 15-16 years later might bring back some horrid memories. Also, if she has a new name (Irma Pince), why? Is she one of those individuals that Dumbledore suggests may be "hidden completely" and are presumed to be dead? How come? Lastly, this Snape>Pince connection might shed more light on why it is that Snape seems a little more trusting of Filch than some others. After all, he even goes to Filch to get his leg bandaged in SS/PS and not Madam Pomfrey. On the one hand, this might be an effort to keep the injury secret, but why Filch? If there is something romantic going on between Pince and Filch currently, and Pince is Eileen Prince, it might help explain Snape's interactions with Filch. If any of this is true, it leaves me wondering what Pince is thinking now! Hope that makes more sense to you than it does to me at 5 am! -ZR From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 5 15:39:25 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:39:25 -0000 Subject: children's books? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136560 "anasazi_pr" wrote: Pat, I really love your analysis. But I think we are forgetting two things: 1) Unlike Emma, Harry Potter is a children's book 2) JK Rowling is no Jane Austen Just had to comment on this one, Rowling has said in several interviews that she does NOT write for children, she writes for herself, regardless of how Raincoast, Scholastic or WB choose to market Harry Potter. From anujaasathe at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 13:22:18 2005 From: anujaasathe at gmail.com (anujaasathe) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:22:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore keeping secrets Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136561 I just don't understand why Dumbledore doesn't want anyone to know about horcruxes and his search for them.I mean I don't want to tell the whole WW but I feel he definitely should have told members of the OOP. This mission of DD's is the key to all things and yet he specifically tells Harry not to tell anyone,and Harry obeys. So not even Minerva knows. What was the need to keep this a secret from OOP? Aren't they all together in all this? Maybe he could have just told a few of them like Arthur and Minerva. This mission is the biggest and most important thing that has to be dealt with! I also feel that Harry is not ready to deal with what lies ahead even with help from Ron and Hermione.They just don't know enough magic to destroy all the horcruxes..They definitely need help. Even DD needed all his skills to get to the (fake) horcrux in the cave, he injured himself seriously trying to get the ring, too. But at the end of HBP we saw that Harry refuses to tell Minerva about it! What are they going to do??? Also, when did DD start the search for horcruxes?I think at the end of COS his doubts were confirmed by the Riddle diary. He probably started researching in POA but then things got too busy in GOF. LV was back at its end so he had to deal with the situation on the ground in OOP. Does this sound right? Also, DD thinks that LV made a horcrux after killing Frank Bryce. But we know he reserves making them for very special deaths that he's planned. I dont think Bryce was imp to him at all. More importantly I don't think he had the strength to create one at that time if he needed Wormtail to feed him..and creating a horcrux must be extremely skilled magic..So Nagini cant be a horcrux as LV did nt make one at that time..Either he's one short of 7 or he made a new one after getting his power back...say after killing Amelia Bones(we know he killed her personally). Anuja. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 5 15:50:07 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:50:07 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136562 ".....for many years I have made it my business to discover as much as I can about Voldemort's past life. I have traveled widely, visiting those places he once knew." (chap. 23, p. 504) I'm still puzzled how someone could locate the cave before Dumbledore. There were only a handful of people who knew about the existence of the cave, all presumed to be Muggles, except for Voldemort and Dumbledore. Quite a few wizards knew Voldemort was once the schoolboy Tom Riddle, including Dumbledore, Slughorn, Lucius, Borgin (?) and a handful of DE's who apparently went to school with Riddle. But only Dumbledore and Headmaster Dippet seem to know that Tom Riddle was a half-blood raised in an orphanage. The others, including Slughorn, assumed a more prestigious heritage or accepted the Heir of Slytherin link. As far as we know, no one in the WW besides Dumbledore bothered to investigate Riddle's past in such depth. Or to put all the pieces of the puzzle together to understand the significance of the cave. "...but I believe it to be hidden in a cave on the coast many miles from here, a cave I have been trying to locate for a very long time: the cave in which Tom Riddle once terrorized two children from his orphange on their annual trip; you remember?" (chap. 25, p. 547). "Trying to locate for a very long time..." In the chapter on Horcruxes, Dumbeldore said he'd been visiting the places Voldemort 'once knew', searching for magical concealment. The most likely first place was the Riddle House. There must have been no signs of concealment at the old Riddle House, so Dumbledore moved on to the Gaunt shack. His theory about multiple Horcruxes was proven true when he found the ring. Likely at that point, Dumbledore began to speculate about how many Horcruxes Voldemort actually made and where they would be hidden. Also around this time, Dumbledore decided to lure Slughorn back to Hogwarts, hoping to retrieve the missing memory. He must suspect somewhere in Slughorn's conversation with Riddle is a tip-off about the number of Horcruxes Voldemort hoped to make. The next stop would likely be the orphange, which was either long gone or showed no signs of magical concealment. Dumbledore then remembered the cave. Mrs. Cole would be retired from the orphange and probably dead, but maybe after watching the memory of his own visit to meet Tom, Dumbledore decided to track down Amy Benson and/or Dennis Bishop for the information. They would undoubtedly be the last surviving witnesses to the location of the cave. Whew--that's a lot of tracking down and conjecture! Both on Dumbledore's part and mine ;). But I think it's very clear *no one* else went to all that trouble. In fact, there are very few plausible explanations for how RAB located the cave. 1) One possibility batted around: Voldemort took someone with him to the cave, either when he placed the Horcrux or to check up on it. Now that we know how Voldemort operates, and his psychological profile, the only way I can see this happening is if Voldemort killed the person right afterward. That doesn't help us . Unless the person slips info about the cave to another DE before dying. Somehow I picture Voldy would AK right outside the cave, though. 2) One of the children Riddle took to the cave turned out to be a witch or wizard, was adopted out after Tom and probably went to a different wizarding school. As to how Amy (most likely her, given RAB) learned about the Horcruxes, we have no idea, but she would at least know the location of the cave. 3) Someone very sly is near Voldemort, but not loyal to him. This person knows nothing about Riddle's origins, but one day stumbles across the location of the cave. Maybe Voldemort is giving one of his ill-advised speeches and tells more information than he should. This one seems possible, but the person hearing about the cave would still have to locate it, dismantle the protections, etc. A very cunning wizard or witch. That type of DE seems few and far between. Voldemort does have an Achilles heel--he enjoys talking too much about his lavish plans and garnering praise for them. That's the only reason I can see for anyone finding out about the cave, let alone locating it. Unlike the diary, the locket is in a completely remote place with mutiple protections on it. This is likely one Horcrux Voldemort formed later in life, after refining his magical skills. The diary wasn't protected well, and the ring was protected by only a curse (a bad one, but still, Dumbledore was able to wander around the Gaunt house and find the ring, so there were no protections on the house). Please help! I still can't make sense of this part of the mystery. Jen From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 13:45:26 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:45:26 -0500 Subject: Hagrid's Magic In-Reply-To: <1123216880.2210.82919.m25@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123216880.2210.82919.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd050805064568a511d8@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136563 bohcoo writes:> > In one of her numerous interviews Rowling mentioned that someone > manages to perform magic rather late in life, under dire circumstances. > > Did anyone else feel when Hagrid pointed his wonderful pink, flowery > umbrella at his flaming house to save his beloved Fang, and uttered the > charm, "Aguamenti," thus helping Harry to extinguish the blaze, that > this might be what she was making reference to? Lisa responds: I don't think Hagrid is the person we're looking for -- we've seen Hagrid perform magic as early as Book 1. I think we're looking for Petunia, either to save her precious Dudders, or in a burst of guilt and desperation, to protect Harry in some way. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From personal.venus at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 15:50:04 2005 From: personal.venus at gmail.com (anasazi_pr) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:50:04 -0000 Subject: children's books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136564 >From JKR's official website --> Rubbish Bin section. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rubbishbin_view.cfm?id=9 "Rowling is 'riled' by being seen as a children's author Absolute garbage! I have said many times that IF I REMAIN A CHILDREN'S AUTHOR forever (which I may well do) I will never see this as being a lesser, easier or less 'serious' career than writing for adults. Whenever I have discussed the possibility of writing adult fiction, it has nearly always been because an interviewer has asked 'might you one day write a book for adults?'" CAPS are mine. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "strawberryshaunie" wrote: > "anasazi_pr" wrote: > Pat, I really love your analysis. But I think we are forgetting two > things: > 1) Unlike Emma, Harry Potter is a children's book > 2) JK Rowling is no Jane Austen > > > Just had to comment on this one, Rowling has said in several > interviews > that she does NOT write for children, she writes for herself, > regardless of how Raincoast, Scholastic or WB choose to market Harry > Potter. From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 5 15:58:13 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:58:13 -0000 Subject: children's books? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136565 "Rowling is 'riled' by being seen as a children's author Absolute garbage! I have said many times that IF I REMAIN A CHILDREN'S AUTHOR forever (which I may well do) I will never see this as being a lesser, easier or less 'serious' career than writing for adults. Whenever I have discussed the possibility of writing adult fiction, it has nearly always been because an interviewer has asked 'might you one day write a book for adults?'" Me again! This does indeed show that Rowling doesn't mind being seen as a children's author, but it does not mean that she writes for children. To assume that "I wouldn't think less of myself as a children's author rather than a so-called adult novelist" means "I write my stories for children" is a bit of a leap, imho. From hugonz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 08:34:38 2005 From: hugonz at hotmail.com (tukiel) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:34:38 -0000 Subject: Snape and AK curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136566 zgirnius wrote: > These effects are attributed by different people to a nonverbal spell > Snape performed while speaking the AK, or to the idea that an AK > which *failed* might have the blast into the air effect. The reason > to fake an AK in these theories is for the benefit of the watching > Death Eaters, so they would be impressed by what a powerful DE Snape > is. The reason for attempting to do an AK is again because that's > what a DE does, the reason for failure would be that Snape doesn't > *mean it* in the sense required for an Unforgiveable Curse to work. > (I am a sentimentalist at heart, I suppose, I like this explanation > best...) Actually, I've been bothered by the fact that he spoke the AK.. I'm sure he can do it noverbally. We know it can be done nonverbally (jets of green light from VM trying to kill DD in the Ministry of Magic (OotP)). This was intended to impress the Death Eaters... tukiel From hugonz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 08:14:38 2005 From: hugonz at hotmail.com (tukiel) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:14:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's mother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136567 Merrylinks wrote: > My take on this is that Snape's mother probably made many of the > annotations to the Potions textbook. It was originally hers, after > all. This would also explain why Hermione thought the notes had been > written by a female. This doesn't mean that Snape is a potions > dunderhead, just that he wasn't the first in the family to make > creative modifications to the recipes in the book. Remember: "small cramped hadwriting" is what the HBP potion book is writen in, just the same as the handwriting for Severus is described in the pensieve OWL test that Harry Saw in OTP... tukiel From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 5 16:15:20 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:15:20 -0000 Subject: Snape, Peter and Regulus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136568 Snape, Peter and Regulus were all at Hogwarts about the same time and all joined the Death Eaters - - but in what order? - Did one introduce the other two? - Was Regulus's death about the same time Snape had a change of heart about being a Death Eater? - A common point of all three were Sirius and the Marauders (rival, member and brother of) POSIBILITIES: a) Snape was first. He recruited Regulus and Peter. It was a move directly against Sirius and James. If Snape was their superior in the DE, he may have been responsible for them. - So Snape may have been told to kill Regulus. - Peter had to go to Godric's Hollow with Voldemort because he was the Secret Keeper, but Snape may have gone to keep an eye on Peter. (You don't let a Marauder take your dark Lord to an enemy's place without added security or guards.) - Snape would have known Peter in rat form and kept an eye on Scabbers since Percy brought him to school b) Peter was first. Cornered by DE, he bargained to be spared if he was to be a spy and would prove his worth by recruiting other DE. He approached those against Sirius's ideals. c) Regulus was first. He joined under Bellatrix and looked for some key students to recruit. Snape knew more Dark Arts than others his age. Peter was well placed in the Order. d) They joined unconnected with each other. Regulus came through his aunt. Peter misread the map and turned left instead of right. Snape joined to get more frequent flyer points. To find out: - Accio Book 7! (and if that didn't work) - Reply suggestions here. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 16:18:38 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:18:38 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Harry=92s_new_Patronus_?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136569 We learn in the new book that a person's Patronus can change if they have suffered a deep emotional shock, like watching your Headmaster be murdered by a teacher. I'll bet Harry will develop a new Patronus and I'll bet it's a Phoenix. That makes me wonder about something else, what will happen to Fawkes? I don't think a Phoenix can be property so Dumbledore couldn't give him to Harry in his Will, but the bird may chose to live with Harry, he seems to like him and Voldemort has Nagini. I ran across an old 2001 interview that gives some support to this idea: JKR: "He [Harry] might get a different pet at some point but I'm saying no more at this moment." Eggplant From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Fri Aug 5 16:23:02 2005 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:23:02 -0000 Subject: Did Harry really became unfrozen because DD died? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136570 If the spells of a wizard stop working when they die (Harry unfreezing)... will the protection that DD casted on the Dursley's house for Harry still wok next summer? What about other spells DD casted? Such as some protective spells over the castle? What about all the other protective spells.... Do they always have to be re-casted to keep the castle protected? No. I do not believe that Harry became unfrozen because DD died. DD did not die..... and he lifted the spell on Harry to allow him to go after Snape/Malfoy and TRY to get them.... From personal.venus at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 16:27:06 2005 From: personal.venus at gmail.com (anasazi_pr) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:27:06 -0000 Subject: children's books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "strawberryshaunie" wrote: > "Rowling is 'riled' by being seen as a children's author > > Absolute garbage! I have said many times that IF I REMAIN A > CHILDREN'S AUTHOR forever (which I may well do) I will never see this > as being a lesser, easier or less 'serious' career than writing for > adults. Whenever I have discussed the possibility of writing adult > fiction, it has nearly always been because an interviewer has > asked 'might you one day write a book for adults?'" > > > Me again! > This does indeed show that Rowling doesn't mind being seen as a > children's author, but it does not mean that she writes for children. > > To assume that "I wouldn't think less of myself as a children's > author > rather than a so-called adult novelist" means "I write my stories for > children" is a bit of a leap, imho. Then we'll agree to disagree. From elbarad at aol.com Fri Aug 5 09:28:27 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:28:27 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136572 I also believe it was Snape's mum who loved him. While I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that Snape had a crush on Lily while they we at school (she was very popular and attractive and extremely good at potions), I'd be very surprised to discover that Lily had any feelings for Snape. Snape's unrequited love for Lily would certainly go someway towards explaining the depth of hatred that Snape holds towards James Potter. I would very much like to know exactly what JKR meant when she said how Snape had been love wheres Voldemort had not and this made Snape more culpable than Voldemort was. Culpable in what way exactly? Did she mean that Voldemort's nastiness was more excusable than Snape's bullying behaviour? Rebecca From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Fri Aug 5 16:29:27 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:29:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slughorn-He knows too much! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79fbfeb22300e4edb5e6ef3b12b37030@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136573 Samantha (Snapeo'phile) wrote: > > I was reading a post this morning concerning Slughorn and his > posissable DE affiliations... but I think the reason why Slughorn is > SO afraid the Death Eater's might get him, is because since LV asked > him about the horocrux. So it stands to reason Slughorn might remember > that, thus Voldie's little secret would be out, enabling the OOP to > start looking for the horocrux. Poor Slughorn. I feel sorry for him. He wants a comfortable retired life, but he knows too much and is much too intelligent to not to have surmised the rest. After LV's great defeat at Godric;s Hollow, LV must have spent a great deal of time wondering if his defeat was, in some part, caused by someone who had figured out his big secret. And if someone had figured it his secret, how did they do it? Then of course, LV would remember Slughorn and would quickly come to the conclusion that he really must get rid of old Slug. Unfortunately for Slughorn, not only is he likely to be killed by LV, he's also at high risk of becoming a social pariah if his contribution to LV's rise to power becomes common knowledge. This is not just simple embarrassment for having an unwise conversation. His whole lifestyle is in danger. His carefully planned web of social contacts could just dry up on him and blow away. Past members of the Slug club, may start denying that they were really members of that group. Barbara Roberts (Ivogun) (`'?.?(`'?.?-:?:-?.?' ?)?.?'?) -:?:-??..-:?:-* ~ Barbara~ *-:?:-..??-:?:- (?.?'?(?.?'?-:?:-`'?.?)`'?.?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 5 16:30:25 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:30:25 -0000 Subject: children's books? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136574 "anasazi_pr" wrote: Then we'll agree to disagree. Agreed! :) From elbarad at aol.com Fri Aug 5 11:11:53 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:11:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136575 Firstly, I'd like to say that Carole's essay on Snape was excellent. Both perceptive and well-written, and tells far more eloquently than I could have done exactly my take on the position of Snape during the chapter 'Spinner's End'. Carol wrote: > Whether he tells Dumbledore about this scene or not (and I think he > does), the jinx on the DADA position has already struck. Whatever > happens, Severus Snape will not return to Hogwarts the following > year. Voldemort's vengeance has found its mark. A very good point. Dumbledore of course knew of this jinx - I wonder whether he thought to tell Snape of it, and I wonder whether he realised that Snape's span as DADA treacher could not exceed three terms. I can only assume that he did and that he knew of the unbreakable vow. It was my impression upon a first reading of HBP that Dumbledore could have easily escaped the death eaters should he have really wanted to. Marianne S: > Snape told the women that Dumbledore has suffered an injury, that is > "reflexes" are not what they were. Of course, he does not tell them that it was he, Severus, who kept Dumbledore from dying as a >result of the cursed ring, which means they also do not know that > Dumbledore is after horcruxes. I actually doubt whether Snape knew about the horcruxes. I suspect that only Dumbledore, Harry, Hermione and Ron know about that apporach to Voldemort's immortality (and Slughorn too, if he thinks about it hard - which he may not as that would involve acknowledging his (perceived) part in Voldemort's rise to power). It is, after all, vitally important that Voldemort does not get wind of this part fo the plan. So the fewer people that know about ti, the better. Marianne S > But to kill Dumbledore... of course he had to agree to that in >front of the women. Absolutely. JKR doesn't seem to add details for no reason. His hand must have twitched for a reason - and I expect that he had previously had no intention of taking a vow to kill Dumbledore. The sudden inclusion of this clause would have been a great shock. Now, we can argue that this was simply because it would cause Snape to have to do something very dangerous that would bring about the end of his quiet days and hogwarts and lead to him being hunted down by the ministry. But, of course, it could simply be that he is loyal to Dumbledore. That being the case it would be a truly terrible moment for Snape: he cannot back out without giving himself away as a spy (something that would not only put him in great danger but would also make him useless to Dumbledore), but to make the vow would also be a terrible thing. And think also, how terrible it would be for Snape (if he is indeed loyal to Dumbledore) having killed Dumbledore, fleeing with the death eaters, returning to Voldemort and having to pretend he's pleased with what has happened. To be grieving for the death of a friend/ mentor when you've caused that death against your will, and not to be able to show it or confide in another living soul. It would be terrible indeed. it would make Snape one of the most pittiable characters in all the HP books. Of course, he might well be a true death eater. And it's going to be a very long two years until we discover the truth! Marianne S > I wonder, then, could Dumbledore have already been dying? Could >Snape have known that whatever was in that ring was, in fact, slowly >killing Dumbledore? We know that Dumbledore is a very old man... we >know he's not afraid of death...so I imagine, as Carol did, that >Snape told Dumbledore of the vow. I would surmise that Dumbledore >knew he had to die, something he was ready for... I got the impression that Dumbledore was ready to die, a hunch that was more or less confirmed by JKR during her Edinburgh interview of 19th July. Marianne S > Surely if Harry is going to go after horcruxes that are guided by >terrible, terrible poisons and curses... he's going to need The Half >Blood Prince's wisdom with potions. More thoughts exactly. But will he return to the room of requiremnet to retrieve the book? Or will he no longer want to be associated with it now that he knows that it was written by Snape? Rebecca From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 5 16:44:50 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:44:50 -0000 Subject: Snape, Peter and Regulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > Snape, Peter and Regulus were all at Hogwarts about the same time > and all joined the Death Eaters - > > - but in what order? > - Did one introduce the other two? > - Was Regulus's death about the same time Snape had a change of > heart about being a Death Eater? > - A common point of all three were Sirius and the Marauders (rival, > member and brother of) > > POSIBILITIES: > > a) Snape was first. He recruited Regulus and Peter. It was a move > directly against Sirius and James. If Snape was their superior in > the DE, he may have been responsible for them. > - So Snape may have been told to kill Regulus. > - Peter had to go to Godric's Hollow with Voldemort because he was > the Secret Keeper, but Snape may have gone to keep an eye on Peter. > (You don't let a Marauder take your dark Lord to an enemy's place > without added security or guards.) > - Snape would have known Peter in rat form and kept an eye on > Scabbers since Percy brought him to school > > b) Peter was first. Cornered by DE, he bargained to be spared if he > was to be a spy and would prove his worth by recruiting other DE. He > approached those against Sirius's ideals. > > I think it was most likely option a. As Snape is older than Regulus, and that the fact that Draco being a *death eater* at such a young age (16) in book 6 was unusual, I would think that the Death Eaters didn't recruit underage wizards into their camp. Snape left Hogwarts in 1979, so I would think that is when he joined for good. I believe Lucius recruited Snape. And since Lucius is referred to as "Snape's friend" by Narcissa, and since Lucius married Narcissa and Narcissia is the cousin of Regulus and since Regulus & Snape were in the same house (whew!!), I believe that Snape probably recruited Regulus - they were closer in age than Lucius & Regulus. Peter - since he wasn't in the same house as Snape/Regulus, I don't think they knew he was a DE - matter of fact, it didn't seem like anyone thought he was a DE for 13 years(PoA). They thought he was an innocent who was killed by Sirius - whom they thought was a DE. I don't know if all the DE's *know* each other, really. Snape was a DE and he *thought* Sirius was responsible for James/Lily's deaths and working on LV's side - or maybe he didn't think that.... But I don't think Snape knew about Peter's involvement with the DE's - PoA makes it seem that way, IMHO If you are interested in reading about my Snape/Regulus Theory and why Snape turned to DD back in 1980/1981 timeframe - here are some links.... > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135368 > there is a link in it that points to why the reason why Snape turned > *good* and the key is....Regulus > > original theory link: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 also, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135710 has more posters responding with thoughts.... colebiancardi From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 16:45:51 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:45:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore keeping secrets (+horcrux questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136578 Anuja wrote: I just don't understand why Dumbledore doesn't want anyone to know about horcruxes and his search for them.I mean I don't want to tell the whole WW but I feel he definitely should have told members of the OOP..... ...This mission is the biggest and most important thing that has to be dealt with! Marianne S.: Based on the fact that Snape was the one who's quick action saved Dumbledore's life when it came to the ring Horcrux, not to mention that it is Snape that Dumbledore wants after retrieving the fake horcrux/locket... I would not be surprised if Snape, especially if he's a Good! Snape, knows about the Horcruxes and what must be done. I feel that I'll know for sure in the next book. A Good! Snape who knows about the horcruxes and wants them destroyed would be able to help Harry, if Harry doesn't kill him first. How can Harry and the other Order members be convinced to trust Snape and accept his help? Could Dumbledore have left a will or something that explains what he made Severus promise to do? I think Dumbledore KNOWS that Harry is not going to be able to go on completely alone, and yet he wouldn't let Harry tell anyone other than Ron and Hermione. If I rely on the assumption that Snape did know about the horcruxes and Harry still isn't going to tell McGonagal or Lupin or any of the other Order members, perhaps Dumbledore intends to Harry to rely on Snape. This is THE biggest thing I will wonder about for the next 2 or so years. Anuja: I also feel that Harry is not ready to deal with what lies ahead even with help from Ron and Hermione.They just don't know enough magic to destroy all the horcruxes..They definitely need help. Even DD needed all his skills to get to the (fake) horcrux in the cave, he injured himself seriously trying to get the ring, too. But at the end of HBP we saw that Harry refuses to tell Minerva about it! What are they going to do??? Marianne S: Again, this is why I believe that Harry will NEED Snape, and I am hoping that, through that need, Snape will realize Harry is NOT his father and maybe they can mend some fences. I mean, they'll never be friends... but they could maybe respect each other. Snape my even yet see the Lily in Harry. Anjuja: Also, when did DD start the search for horcruxes?I think at the end of COS his doubts were confirmed by the Riddle diary. He probably started researching in POA but then things got too busy in GOF. LV was back at its end so he had to deal with the situation on the ground in OOP. Does this sound right? Marianne S: To me, that sounds quite right. Anuja: Also, DD thinks that LV made a horcrux after killing Frank Bryce. But we know he reserves making them for very special deaths that he's planned. I dont think Bryce was imp to him at all. More importantly I don't think he had the strength to create one at that time if he needed Wormtail to feed him..and creating a horcrux must be extremely skilled magic..So Nagini cant be a horcrux as LV did nt make one at that time..Either he's one short of 7 or he made a new one after getting his power back...say after killing Amelia Bones(we know he killed her personally). Marianne S: I agree. I _think_ Bryce was just in the way, like Cedric was, and therefore not a death that one can make a horcrux from. There is some important information I don't think I understand about Horcruxes. a) Does the object have to be present at the time of the murder? b) If the object does not have to be present, how long does the murderer have to make the horcrux? c) Does Voldemort seek to have his soul only in 7 parts, or .. does he think he needs to have his soul in 7 parts at any one time? So, if he knows 1/7th of his soul was destroyed when the diary was destroyed, would he seek to replace it? d) If Voldemort was saving the creation of his last horcrux for Harry's death, he did not have his soul in 7 parts at the time where he lost his body. That would mean that Nagini COULD be his the 6th horcrux (if he was able to make one without his body and therefore just kill anyone who happened to come by in order to make the horcrux). e) OR, if Voldemort could not make his horcrux without his body, could he have made one after his body returned? Could Peter/Wormtail's hand be a horcrux? Marianne S. From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 17:45:01 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Peter and Regulus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805174501.72275.qmail@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136579 --- Hagrid: > d) They joined unconnected with each other. Regulus > came through his > aunt. Peter misread the map and turned left instead > of right. Snape > joined to get more frequent flyer points. Marozi: Ha! I think it's most likely that they did join individually. Snape and Regulus both seem to have been recruited quite young - possibly while still at Hogwarts, or soon thereafter. Snape had a friend (Avery) and Regulus had relations (the Lestranges) who were sons/relatives of first-generation DEs. Peter is a different story. He didn't just fall into some general dark wizard/pureblood/malcontent recruitment net; he was specifically targeted by Voldemort and given a life-or-death ultimatum. I think Voldemort wanted information on the parents of one of the prophecy babies and identified Peter as the weak link in the Potters' chain of friends. He might have gotten that information from Snape, but that doesn't mean Snape did the actual recruiting. Sirius says in POA that Peter had been passing information "for over a year" before the Secret Keeper disaster, so that timing would fit with my theory that Peter's recruitment was linked to the prophecy. But it means Peter didn't become a DE until he was 20 or so, well out of Hogwarts. Of course, the possibility exists that he had been a secret DE for years, but I don't think it's very likely. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 17:52:05 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:52:05 -0000 Subject: Who was the spy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136580 Before HBP we knew that an eavesdropper overheard half the prophecy and told Voldemort, and we knew that a spy in the Death Eaters organization told Dumbledore that Voldemort knew. Most of us thought Snape was the spy and most of us were wrong, myself included. We now know Snape was the eavesdropper, so who was the spy for the good guys? By the way, I now think the eavesdropper heard the ENTIRE prophecy, he just told Voldemort half. Eggplant From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 5 18:12:01 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:12:01 -0000 Subject: Who was the spy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Before HBP we knew that an eavesdropper overheard half the prophecy > and told Voldemort, and we knew that a spy in the Death Eaters > organization told Dumbledore that Voldemort knew. Most of us thought > Snape was the spy and most of us were wrong, myself included. We now > know Snape was the eavesdropper, so who was the spy for the good guys? > By the way, I now think the eavesdropper heard the ENTIRE prophecy, he > just told Voldemort half. > > Eggplant I think it was Snape, in both cases. We don't know when Dumbledore found out about the knowledge that Voldemort only knew half of the prophecy - we only know that Snape went to Voldy and told him(when he was bad). However, when Snape joined Dumbledore(now he is the good spy), he probably was the one who told DD what he had told Voldemort - and when Snape told him about the prophecy, that is how DD knew that Snape didn't tell Voldemort the full prophecy. I don't remember reading when DD found out exactly when Voldemort knew and what he knew. I took the spy in both cases to be Snape, and I don't think I am wrong - IMHO. at any rate, did DD know at the time of the eavesdropping that Snape was a DE? If he knew that, he probably put 2 & 2 together and assumed that Snape would tell Voldy. It could be that Snape only told Voldy half the prophecy - I wouldn't put it past him :) colebiancardi From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Aug 5 18:23:20 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Amortentia smells (was: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Susan McGee wrote: > "2. We find out that the potion is Amortentia, the "most powerful love > potion in the world" > > Hermione said '"it's supposed to smell differently to each of us, > according to what attracts us, and I can smell freshly mown grass and > new parchment and ----' But she turned slightly pink and did not > complete the sentence." (p. 185) > > Smell is one of the great indicators of erotic attraction .question, > what was Hermione's third smell? Something that reminded her of Ron? > Love to hear other's thoughts here.." > > Del replies: > Hermione is in love with books, but this bit > contradicts this. It's not the smell of old books that she likes, but > the smell of new parchment. That's not the same thing at all. Old > books, to me, suggest knowledge and passivity, someone sitting in a > library for hours on end, while a new parchment suggests to me > creativity and activity, someone writing or drawing or making plans. > Not at all the same. This bit confirms me in my belief that Hermione's > love of learning is not an end in itself. It's only a means to do what > she really loves: *do* stuff, whether by reproducing or by inventing. > Hermione is not learning for the sake of learning, she's learning for > the sake of making life (hers and that of all those she cares about) > better and easier. We don't see her showing off her knowledge just for > the sake of showing what she can do (unlike the Twins and their > overuse of Apparition in OoP, for example), but we do see her using > her knowledge to arrange things or to make them easier (making the > snow melt in front of the Trio so they don't freeze, enchanting the DA > Galleons, repairing stuff, preparing the essence of Murtlap for Harry, > and so on). As such it makes complete sense to me that she would love > the smell of new parchment. > > Susan McGee's response: Great insight. Remember when someone notices that Hermione has done a Protean charm on the gold galleon in order to inform participants of the meeting of the D.A.? Was it Terry Boot? He asks Hermione why she's not in Ravenclaw with brains like hers... Hermione answers that the Sorting Hat thought about putting her in Ravenclaw, but finally decided on Gryffindor instead. If Hermione's love of knowledge and research and books is mostly so that she can DO helpful things in the world, then maybe that's why she's in Gryffindor...(although I do think she loves learning for its own sake as well). Susan McGee Want to join Harry Potter for Grownups Over 40? Email me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com From andie1 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 5 18:25:26 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:25:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova wrote: > > I actually understand this. It has to do with her feeling independent. She can get > through the portrait hole on her own, doesn't need a boy's help, even her boyfriend's. > I can understand this because I am extremely independent and have been known to > be...ah...touchy when someone tries to help me do something that I can do perfectly > well on my own. Her personality seems to mirror Harry's in many ways. Just wanted to point out also that Harry had a similar issue with this sort of thing. Remember when he was met by Aurors to go to Platform 9 3/4? The auror grabbed his arm and was guiding him, and Harry pulled away and told him that he was quite capable of walking on his own. Compare this with Ginny having a problem with Dean guiding her through the portrait hole... very similar instances. Just another way JK mirrored H/G in HBP. grindieloe From ngermany at excite.com Fri Aug 5 17:39:50 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:39:50 -0000 Subject: Fred and George (was: In defense of Molly) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136586 bennetfan101 wrote: The problem with the twins is that they have never, > EVER been forced to face consequences for their actions. Either > someone is there to clean up after them, or they don't particularly > care about the people they are victimizing (and thus, consequences > less than death/serious injury have no effect on them). It sort of > reminds me of the Marauders. > Actually, they DO take the conequences for their actions, ya'll. They just dont give a d--- about them. The consequences for their chemistry/potion's experiments included nose bleeds and very uncomfortable boils on their gluteus maximus. I think they played a quidditch match with those boils bleeding. Mrs. Weasely has given her propers when she caught them. And Fred and George kept at it anyway. The students understand the consequences of dealing with Fred and George. And Fred and George are still liked. Consider this instead: Romilda Vane gave cauldron cakes to Harry spiked with love potion made by fred and George. Who's to blame for this? Fred and George for making and selling it or Romilda for using it unethically? If I did such a thing and gave it to my spouse on Valentine's Day, is my behavior equal to hers? If I have a gun and use it to stop a criminal from coming into my house in the dark of night without consent, who is to blame if I kill that person? Me or the manufacturer who made and sold me that weapon? Please don't go off the deep end because I used guns to help with my anology. I chose guns because Weasely's Wheezes are also dangerous. Elizabeth From selkie1964 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 17:23:13 2005 From: selkie1964 at yahoo.com (Vera) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:23:13 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: <42F1BFBA.7060403@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136587 Directly from OOP... "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..." My take on this... I think this all relates to Harry (or Neville, but LV "fulfilled" the prophecy when he marked Harry), particularly because of the last line. We know from the other true prophecy that Trelawney made in Harry's presence that she speaks in a style markedly different from what most people would consider normal when she is in the grip of her Vision and I think the ellipses are just hesitations as the waves of Vision wash over her. What I think she is saying is that the birth of the person who will be able to defeat LV is imminent, that he will be born at the end of July to people who have fought against LV (3x apparently), and that it will be known who he is by virtue of the fact that LV will mark him (I'm not committing myself as to the "power the Dark Lord knows not"). In reference to the either-neither-other controversy, all I think that means (in the rather high-falutin' inflated language of prophecy) is that neither of the two (Harry and LV) can live while the other lives (Harry can't survive if LV survives, and vice versa -- one of them must destroy the other one) -- "either [one] must die at the hand of the other [one]." I'm not sanguine about the phrase "at the hand of" simply meaning "in close proximity to" -- I'm certain that Harry will play a major role in defeating LV (even if he doesn't actually *kill* LV, he may be the one who makes it possible for *someone* to kill him -- thus LV would have ultimately been vanquished at Harry's hand -- or he may just avada kedavra the sucker after destroying the final horcrux, assuming he himself isn't the item in question). Just my $0.02 worth :-) Vera From elbarad at aol.com Fri Aug 5 18:52:33 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:52:33 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136588 Salit wrote: > > I think the > > Molly/Arthur relationship is a symptom of Rowling larger issues. > > As I talked about in a previous post I think she is, in general, > > very down on fathers > Her depiction of mothers and fathers leaves a lot to be desired. > Mothers are all self sacrificing and loving. Fathers are either > inept or downright abusive. I wonder if this comes from personal > experience... That is possible, I did hear a rumour that she had suffered domestic abuse. However, I cannot say that I had noticed anything wrong with the way males are portrayed in the Potter World. Arthur is a strong character who is quietly spoken and avoids confrontation (unless it is very necessary). He DOES do what he feels is right. Molly is a brave and caring woman who has already lost two brothers to Voldemort's crusade (Gideon and fabien Prewet - JKRowling.com)and so is understandably over-protective of those she loves. She defends those she loves like a tigress, hence her behaviour towards Sirius during OotP. All in all Molly and Arthur's relationship is built on love, respect and mutual need and reliance. Harry's father, was brave, clever and talented. He was also a show-off who bullied Snape, who he disliked because he was into the dark arts. Sure, bullying behaviour is nasty, and James grew out of it (although Snape didn't!). I don't see that JKR wrote James as a bully to belittle the father figure, but to make it less easy for Harry to hero-worship his father. Harry might have longed for his mother in her absence, but it was James that he elevated to hero-status. Harry had to come to realise, during OotP that James wasn't perfect, but that he was still, after everything, a good person. I have heard people suggest that JKR did not make any strong father figures for her young charges at Hogwart (James bullying, Arthur a drip (which I disagree with anyway), Tobias Snape an abusive man, Mr Lovegood a loony etc), but I see Arthur as a strong father, Mr longbottom as a very heroic figure, Amos Diggory as a likable (if over-proud) father, Hagrid's dad as a funny and loveable father. I can continue if necassary; many strong and likeable fathers! JKR has made all her characters very colourful, and very real. And just like real people they all have their negative aspects, men and women alike. Although JKR may have had reason to feel negatively about some men, I do not feel that she has let this intrude into her novels, and neither do I feel that children reading these books will take home negative views of either men or women. When you compare JKR's portrayal of men, to C. S. Lewis' protrayal of women, there is clearly no comparison! I adored Lewis's books when I was a child, but as an adult reading them to my three children I'm afraid that the sexual stereotypes in his stories were uncomfortably obvious; to the point where I stopped reading them to my 8yr old son. By comparison, JKR's work is almost entirely free of bigotry of any nature, and children reading her books are only going to become more open-minded due to reading them, not less. Well done to her. Rebecca From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 19:03:45 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hagrid's Magic In-Reply-To: <1123216880.2210.82919.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050805190345.91181.qmail@web32109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136589 bohcoo wrote: "In one of her numerous interviews Rowling mentioned that someone manages to perform magic rather late in life, under dire circumstances. Did anyone else feel when Hagrid pointed his wonderful pink, flowery umbrella at his flaming house to save his beloved Fang, and uttered the charm, "Aguamenti," thus helping Harry to extinguish the blaze, that this might be what she was making reference to?" Morgan: Well, Hagrid is not a late bloomer. After all, he was admitted to Hogwarts and has been doing magic in the books since he first meets Harry. Hagrid is simply untrained (he was expelled his third year). Also, until the end of CoS Hagrid was not officially allowed to do magic. Only after he was cleared of opening the Chamber was he able to do magic in the open. So, no, I don't think JKR is referring to him. Some people have theorized that it is Merope that she is referring to. I disagree. I believe we will see Arabella Figg do some magic (I also think she's Dumbledore's sister). The only other option, in my opinion, is Filch, and I would hate for it to be him! I think Mrs. Figg will have some play in book 7 after Harry comes of age and the protection on Privet Drive goes away. --Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 19:24:53 2005 From: devika261 at hotmail.com (Devika) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:24:53 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > We learn in the new book that a person's Patronus can change if they > have suffered a deep emotional shock, like watching your Headmaster be > murdered by a teacher. I'll bet Harry will develop a new Patronus and > I'll bet it's a Phoenix. That makes me wonder about something else, > what will happen to Fawkes? I don't think a Phoenix can be property so > Dumbledore couldn't give him to Harry in his Will, but the bird may > chose to live with Harry, he seems to like him and Voldemort has > Nagini. I ran across an old 2001 interview that gives some support to > this idea: > > JKR: "He [Harry] might get a different pet at some point but I'm > saying no more at this moment." > I've thought about this too, ever since I read HBP for the first time. I can imagine a scenario in Book 7 where Harry has to conjure a Patronus, whether for protection or to send a message to an Order member. To his surprise, he sees that his Patronus has become a phoenix. It is this manifestation of his devotion to Dumbledore that calls Fawkes to Harry, just as Harry's loyalty to DD summoned Fawkes in CoS. After this, Fawkes decides to stay with Harry. On a semi-related note, I hope that there is room in the story for Harry to have more than one bird in his life, since I (and I'm sure Harry as well) would hate for anything to happen to Hedwig. If this does indeed happen, I wonder if Harry's Patronus would remain a phoenix or if it would go back to its original form. I don't think we know whether a Patronus change is permanent (at least until another "emotional upheaval"), or whether the Patronus will return to the way it was after the emotional shock has worn off. I like to think that Harry's Patronus became a large, shaggy dog during the time at Privet Drive until Harry realized that he had to get on with his life without Sirius. After that, it returned to its original stag form. However, since we don't see Harry producing a Patronus at all in HBP, I guess I'll never know. Maybe this topic isn't quite as interesting as Snape or the H/G SHIP ;), but I'd love to hear any input on it anyway! Devika :) From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 19:28:17 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's Magic / Late Magic In-Reply-To: <20050805190345.91181.qmail@web32109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050805192817.21389.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136591 Morgan wrote: ...edited... Some people have theorized that it is Merope that she is referring to. I disagree. I believe we will see Arabella Figg do some magic (I also think she's Dumbledore's sister). The only other option, in my opinion, is Filch, and I would hate for it to be him! I think Mrs. Figg will have some play in book 7 after Harry comes of age and the protection on Privet Drive goes away. Juli: I don't think it's Merope either, she was able to do magic, she was just so scared by her dad, that she ended up doing everything wrong, I think she may be like Neville. Arabella FIgg as DD's siter? I don't think so, I mean she calls his Dumbledore, not Albus, who calls his sister/brother by their last name? It'd be a bit too confusing (even if Arabella has a different last name). I don't see Aberdoth calling DD "Dumbledore", he must call him Albus, or Brian or Percival or Wulfric... I personally believe the late wizard will be Petunia, I think she will perform some magic in order to protect Dudley or Harry or both. I snipped you, but you said that Hagrid was allowed to perform magic after CoS, could you please point me to where it says so, I don't remember reading it. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 5 19:30:09 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:30:09 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136592 Vera provided this nice, compact quote for the prophecy. > Directly from OOP... > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born > to those who thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and > the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the > Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other > for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the > power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies > ..." Potioncat: Eileen finds herself in the family way, her wizard boyfriend is no where to be found. She marries a willing, but ignorant Muggle and Severus is born just short of 8 months after the wedding. (as the 7th month dies) Marked as equal because LV noted his skill, and his similar background and gave him the DE-secret-name of Half-Blood Prince. He has the power of occlumency, to name one. After the incident on the tower, LV can hardly afford to let Snape live. Snape can't wait to kill LV. It all fits. Potioncat, just having fun From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Fri Aug 5 19:43:00 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:43:00 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > Eileen finds herself in the family way, her wizard boyfriend is no > where to be found. She marries a willing, but ignorant Muggle and > Severus is born just short of 8 months after the wedding. (as the 7th > month dies) Although it was said on this list, I think, that Snape's birthday was in January. How do we know about Snape's birthday? Was it in a JKR interview, or in one of the books (I can't remember)? Cheryl From siskiou at vcem.com Fri Aug 5 19:48:24 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:48:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Emma, Twists, and HBP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1274918642.20050805124824@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136594 Hi, Friday, August 5, 2005, 7:28:32 AM, anasazi_pr wrote: > Pat, I really love your analysis. But I think we are forgetting two > things: > 1) Unlike Emma, Harry Potter is a children's book > 2) JK Rowling is no Jane Austen True, but the main difference to me is that HP and Emma are completely different genres. Emma's whole plot is all about relationships and romance, while HP has this as a little side story (and I am so glad, because I had to basically *make* myself finish Emma, since romance alone is incredibly boring to me). I read HP, because I generally love adventure, mystery and friendship in my reading, and JKR does this well most of the time, though I do wish for a different POV desperately, sometimes. > I can only wish it wasn't like this, not because of the shipping angle, > but because I think the HP books lack both in subtletly and in > emotional layers, something JA excelled at. But is more than highly > unlikely, specially after the interviews. To pull a twist like that in > the seventh book after that interview will be cruel to both camps in > the shipping wars. But in both books, it became clear very quickly who was feeling more than friendship for whom (even if the characters themselves were trying not to), at least where it comes to Ron and Hermione. At first, it was easy to just chalk things up to friendship, but the evidence for R/Hr was just adding up more and more, while this wasn't happening with H/Hr. And while JK likes Jane Austen's writing, she never said she was trying to recreate her writing style. Otherwise we should have seen Hermione make relationship plans for anyone *but* Harry, but he was in fact the one she helped to get together with two girls (Cho, and indirectly Ginny). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 19:58:22 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:58:22 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA (long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: >The time nonsense in book 3 doesn't work because > JKR didn't think it through - it's a remarkably simple flaw and > goes like this: > > The only reason Harry > survives is because... he saves himself!! No, no, a thousand > times NO. JKR twisted the logic and most of her audience > lapped it up. THANK YOU. This is another way of looking at my argument. The only way to work out the events that JKR wrote would be if we are seeing the CHANGED events from two different perspectives, but that there was an "original" set of events which were changed which we never see. However as I have stated, I do not believe that JKR imagined that this is how it worked, nor do I think she imagined that "it always was this way" as almost everyone else has been banging me over the head with, because then she would have left out all the warnings about changing the past! Ultimately she creates a nice little time-travel solution to a problem that just doesn't hold up to logic. - davenclaw From rachel at phony-art.com Fri Aug 5 19:57:50 2005 From: rachel at phony-art.com (Rachel) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:57:50 -0000 Subject: Do spells end when a wizard dies (was Re: Did Harry really became unfrozen...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136596 Oiramertip wrote: > If the spells of a wizard stop working when they die ... But isn't that a big if? Do we have any indication prior to this that a spell ends if a person dies? I mean, there is the obvious Lily is dead but her protection still holds (a third party was possibly involved). How about the portraits on the walls in Grimerwauld Place? The one of SB's mother still has something holding it to the wall and we are told serious is the last of his line (thus the person who cast the charm is likely no longer on this side of the veil). I am trying ot think of other examples, but can not seem to come up with any. Anyone else have any? Rachel (who finally gets to start a reread now that my husband has finished the book!) From sionwitch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 15:36:56 2005 From: sionwitch at yahoo.com (Virginia Villamediana) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My feelings In-Reply-To: <1121795693.1869.29882.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050805153657.93340.qmail@web33813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136597 I just finished reading the book last night, because I live in Ecuador and here it was impossible to find the book sooner. Before I cath up with the reading of all your post sice the 20 of july, I need to share some of my thoughts whit you. Whenever I felt sad or stress I used to read one of the books or watch some of the movies and I immediately felt good again, Also I always dream that when I have my own children, I will read them the HP books. But last night that could have change forever. I dont know if I'm being too dramatic, but I fell horrible, the way the book end make me feel so depress I feel like I lost a member of my family, and maybe it would'nt be so horrible if there has'nt been so much betrayal on the way Dumbledore died. We have been told in five books to trust in Snape and in spite of all the horrible things he did along five books, I trust Dumbledore judgment because he was suppose to be wiser than anyone, but now this happen, and I don't even find a good reason why. Why Dumbledore trust Snape so much?, Why he let him and Draco do everything that they did?. For me is not good enough reason that it was to protect Draco from Voldemort, and who protect the rest of the kids in the school?. And the reason because Dumbledore trust Snape was becasue he said he was sorry? thats not enough! ! . JKR sayd that she will explain why Sirius had to die, but not a single word of these was said. Is possible that she also will not explain more about what happen with Dumbledore, is possible that she will be killing Harry in the last book and never give a good reason?. How much longer we will have to wait to know if we have been reading this books all these years and putting our hearts in the characters and in the end it would be all worthless? all the struggle all the fight, all the pain useless?. I thought that after what happen in book 5 with Sirius nothing worse could happen, unless no without a good reason, but I was very wrong. So it is possible that in book 7 something even worse will happen?, is possible that in the end the good ones will not win?. In this moment I dont know what to expect, but I'm afraid nothing good. I suppose this is what JKR wanted, the readers not knowing what the hell is hapening, but if in the end she doesnt give us really good reasons to all of this, she will have tons of money, but also tons of fans very disappointed, IMHO. Now, I need your help, can please anybody help me to find the way to see all of what happened with other perspective, with another point of view that wont meke me feel as sad as I feel now?. I need to be able to feel god about the HP world again, because it has been a really good part of my life so far. Virginia. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 20:06:09 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:06:09 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Remember, that at the time that Dumbledore makes his point about > needing 'more time' /Sirius has NOT been saved yet/; that occurs in > the future. Since he runs into the kids as soon as he leaves the room for them to time-travel, I get the impression that while he is saying this to them, TT!they are in the middle of saving Sirius. > There is nothing Dumbledore can do about saving Harry; > somehow that worked itself out. Here's my problem: in order for Harry to survive the Dementors, his time-travelling self had to be there. But his time-travelling self was only able to be there because he time-travelled. But he can't have time-travelled without being saved... so how does he get the opportunity to time travel in the first place? The consequences of simply saying that time never occurred in a different way severely contradict everything that JKR put into the mouths of McGonagall and Hermione. - davenclaw From gertgal at aol.com Fri Aug 5 20:16:28 2005 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:16:28 -0000 Subject: Snape as the One in Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136600 > Although it was said on this list, I think, that Snape's birthday was > in January. How do we know about Snape's birthday? Was it in a JKR > interview, or in one of the books (I can't remember)? > > Cheryl It was on jkrowling.com. The calendar that shows wizards of the month and character birthdays declared it on January 9th. Ginger From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 20:23:22 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:23:22 -0000 Subject: Who was the spy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" > > eggplant107 at h...> wrote: > > By the way, I now think the eavesdropper heard the ENTIRE > > prophecy,he just told Voldemort half. > > > > Eggplant > colebiancardi responded: > It could be that Snape only told Voldy half the prophecy - I wouldn't > put it past him :) > > colebiancardi Max responds: According to Dumbledore in OotP (p.843,US Ed): "My - our- one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building." So unless DD is lying, Snape only heard part of the prophecy. Max :) From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 20:37:24 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:37:24 -0000 Subject: The Nasty, Half-Blood (Crown) Undercover Prince of Greyness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136602 Okay, I WAS going to wait until I caught up (I'm getting there; it's going to take another week to 10 days, okay, gimme a break), but I think I've figured out why Snape has to be, if not exactly on the side of the angels, at least Voldemort's (other, covert) nemesis. And I haven't (delicious shiver, here) seen this theory yet (wiggle), either. (If it has been posted before, my sincerest chagrined apologies to the poster. Mea maxima culpa.) When I finished HBP on the evening of Sunday the 17th (I tried to make it last), I had two major reactions: "Dumbledore, no, not Dumbledore! (sob!) What are we going to do?" (My Dad died pretty unexpectedly, two weeks short of the age of 70, on June 1, 2005. I must admit that looking forward to the next HP was one of the things that kept me from completely falling to pieces. Then the feelings Harry went through about the death of Dumbledore mirrored mine about Dad so very closely that I lost my mind a bit. I could have been 16 myself. Forget the Cruciatus curse, all you DE. Keep Ak'ing loved ones if you REALLY want to inflict pain, but anyway,) I stopped crying over Dumbledore eventually and found a notion growing insistently in my brain that the end of the 6th book of a 7 book series just isn't the proper time to announce a major quest. "Harry just isn't going to have time to track down the rest of the horcruxes (plural of horcrux, per canon; chapter title, even) and figure out how to access them and then destroy them and still leave about nine chapters for JKR to explain all the REALLY important stuff like how Sir Nicholas became nearly headless!" I said to myself. So, while reading the almost three thousand messages I've gotten through since the list reopened after HBP came out, I've been racking my subconscious for an answer to how it could wind up quickly enough, and I think I found it: it's Severus Snape. I hate Snape. I'd love to use all three unforgiveables on him in succession. I'd start with the Imperius curse and make him sing passionate karaoke love songs to Madame Trelawny (that one by Celestine Warbeck might do) in the lobby of the Ministry of Magic at quitting time on a Friday before a holiday weekend. Then I'd make him fill several hundred little crystal vials with the memory, label them "pensieve treats," and owl them to every student who was attending Hogwarts the day Dumbledore died. And that's just the beginning. (I have to stop here before I get myself invited to Azkaban for intent to Crucio!) But I still think Snape is key. Although I haven't figured out how Draco's failure is going to figure in to this, I am sure of one thing. Voldemort is going to be delighted to have Dumbledore dead and gone. He may even treat Snape as he would have treated Barty Crouch, Jr., if said li'l ol' psychopath boyo had been able to rejoin the gang after arranging for the delivery of The Boy Who Lived right on schedule. And oh, BTW, the UV even convinced Bellatrix, who was likely Snape's greatest challenge within the ranks. (Voldemort may not even find out about the UV because revealing it would reveal covert planning within the ranks: Snape may just say he heard Draco falter in his stated intention to kill Dumbledore, figured Voldemort wanted Dumbledore dead NOW, and took the initiative and the opportunity because he wasn't sure it would come up again. Snape may report Dumbledore's condition (damage to his hand from a curse, poisoned potion/deadwater) and Voldemort, thinking, "Let's see, what could Dumbledore have beene up to that would cause those injuries?" may figure out the Professor had been on a horcrux hunt. In any case (and here's where I get to the point, finally), Voldie is going to find out that somebody is, or has been, after the (or even just one of the) horcruxes. If anything could scare Voldemort, I imagine it would be that. How many are there out there that need checking up, maybe reinforcing? Voldie can't do it all at once. He needs a trusted second to help him. And in order to get that help, he's going to have to `fess up. He may not go as far as explaining what he is checking/reinforcing protections around, but he'll send Snape off to do something which will reveal information crucial to the quest. Snape may even follow orders to a "T", and ol' paranoidie Voldie may even use an Obliviate to wipe Snape's mind of what he's done or seen in the aftermath. (But Snape will have bottled the memory first.) Actually, I'm not at all sure of anything beyond what I am utterly convinced is going to be canon: Snape's recent incredibly loyal and helpful (in the Dark Lord's POV) act in killing Dumbledore is going to set the stage for Snape gaining enough of Voldemort's trust to find out much of what is so far unknown about the location and nature of at least a fraction of the remaining horcruxes. Think about it. What did Dumbledore spend all his time on in HBP? And how much dramatic tension would be involved in Harry receiving further info from Dumbledore via portrait or pensieve? It is the ONLY thing that makes sense; quests are, above, all, time- and page-consuming. There just isn't time for anything else that makes logistic, literary, and JKR-type sense. In my humble opinion, of course. I welcome responses, although I will be no less convinced in their absence. Sandy, aka msbeadsley (hi, y'all) P.S. I'm toasting Harry and Ginny, and Ron and Hermione (and I don't mean over an open fire). From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 20:50:58 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:50:58 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? was:In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136603 > > Rebecca wrote: > Harry's father, was brave, clever and talented. He was also a > show-off who bullied Snape, who he disliked because he was > into the dark arts. Sure, bullying behaviour is nasty, and > James grew out of it (although Snape didn't!). How do you know that James "grew out of it"? I don't see what makes you so certain. Sirius, for one, didn't. All we know for sure that by the 7th year James learned not to course everything that moves in front of Lilly. And it goes without saying that his newfound benevolence never concerned Snape. And what does it mean "he was into the dark arts"? Did the courses and jinxes James used go under the heading "light arts"? Not to mention that he was as quick as his son to employ Snape's own inventions. a_svirn From fatleror at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 5 20:43:12 2005 From: fatleror at bellsouth.net (glennadell) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:43:12 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End - Unbreakable Vow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136604 Bear with me here I'm very very new at this. I have read and reread this chapter and the one thing that sticks in my mind is... Was Draco supposed to kill DD, or was he just being used to fix the broken cabinet at Hogwarts so that the DE's could get in. He may have bragged that he could fix anything and Voldmort decided to test him and have him fix it, if he couldn't he told him he would kill him. If this were the case then Snape didn't have to kill DD. The other thing that come to mind is the phrase " they can't kill you if your already dead " and the thought that maybe the White Tomb isn't a tomb but a hiding place. Just me ever the optimist. Glenna From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 20:56:21 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:56:21 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Muthukumar S" wrote: > Hi, > > First of all let me introduce my self: > Name: Muthukumar Subramanian / Muthu > Location: India > Profession: S/W Engg. > Other Attributes: Reading books is my favourite passtime.. and Harry > Potter is one of the best; Am a big fan of Harry Potter... > > Now to the current question: > In one of the JKR interviews there was question abotu Petunia? and > JKR has definitely said that Petunia is not a Squib (like Mrs. > Figg); and there is more than that meets the eye w.r.t. Petunia. > > My Theory: > * Petunia is not a Wizard. > * She doesnt actually hate her sister Lilly. > * Dumbledore asked her help to protect Harry. > > But still i'm not able to guess what else shes at this moment... > > Thanks, > -Muthu bboyminn: Petunia is not a Squib, but... That's essentially what JKR said, and the person did specifically as about a 'squib'. I've always suspected that Petunia was a witch. She received the first invitation to Hogwarts but being the prime and proper Percy-like girl she was, she would never do anything as socially improper as attend a school for witches. Much like Percy, she now assumes she made the socially correct decision, that is until Lily gets her invitation to Hogwarts and decides to go. Now, their parent are all proud and supportive of Lily while Petunia feels left out in the cold. So, Petunia is a witch who turned down her invitation to attend Hogwart, and went on from there to live a VERY muggle life. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 20:56:59 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:56:59 -0000 Subject: Paradox - Time Travel - Side Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136606 > bboyminn: > > Well, the fact that we are still discussing this is a pretty strong > indicator of a paradox. The fact that an essentially dead subject > which has been explained to the doubters again and again, he been > revived and is now generating another dozen posts, again, is a pretty > good sign that some people, despite my clear and concise explanations, > refuse to accept my view of things [folds arms, pouts lips, and scowls > ;)]. Further, despite my one-and-only-one timeline explanations which > are supported by the books, some people still cling to the > two-separate-independant timeline theory; "How can Harry be saved if > he hasn't yet traveled back in time to save himself?". There is a good reason for this. Unless I am mistaken, your "one and only one" argument stipulates that events occured as they did BECAUSE they time traveled. And if they hadn't time traveled, different events would have occurred. That means that time-traveling alters events. And yet you contend that time-traveling doesn't alter events. Once time-traveling takes place, no one is aware of any other series of events. But here we diverge. I argue that before the decision to time-travel takes place, some series of events takes place which can be altered by the time travel, and this new version of events is basically all that anyone is aware of. You seem to want to take the actions of the time-travelers as a foregone conclusion before the original characters decide to time travel. To me, if they ONLY EVER experience events as they occurred with the time travelers involved, then there can't be any free choice in deciding to go back in time, and what to do once they've gone back. To me, if they have free choice, then whatever is experienced by the original characters can be changed. But in your view of time travel, the future has basically already occurred - Harry has already traveled in time BEFORE he actually travels in time!!! The "single timeline" explanation requires a timeline that has already played itself out. The timeline which you contend is the only timeline that ever exists, is to me simply the "finished" timeline after the travel occurs, and is only perceived as the only timeline that ever existed. And this requires some series of events leading up to the act of time-travel, which took place without any time-travelers involved. Furthermore, you cannot reconcile your explanation with the words that JKR puts into McGonagall and Hermione's mouths. - davenclaw From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:10:37 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:10:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136607 > bboyminn: > > Petunia is not a Squib, but... > > That's essentially what JKR said, and the person did specifically as > about a 'squib'. I've always suspected that Petunia was a witch. She > received the first invitation to Hogwarts but being the prime and > proper Percy-like girl she was, she would never do anything as > socially improper as attend a school for witches. Much like Percy, she > now assumes she made the socially correct decision, that is until Lily > gets her invitation to Hogwarts and decides to go. Now, their parent > are all proud and supportive of Lily while Petunia feels left out in > the cold. > > So, Petunia is a witch who turned down her invitation to attend > Hogwart, and went on from there to live a VERY muggle life. > > Just a thought. > > Steve/bboyminn That was my guess too. Except that it doesn't make much sense that two witches were born to a muggle couple. It's supposed to be a nature's freak, after all, a rarity. On the other hand, there are the Creevy brothers in Gryffndor so maybe it's not unheard of. a_svirn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:15:44 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:15:44 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136608 a_svirn: > And what does it mean "he was into the dark arts"? Did the courses > and jinxes James used go under the heading "light arts"? Not to > mention that he was as quick as his son to employ Snape's own > inventions. Alla: Well, since Sirius is proven to be absolutely correct as to Snape's being into DA ( to me only of course), I am taking his word as truth for "James hated Dark Arts". I want to say again - I LOVED the irony of James using Snape's creation against him. If Snape never created this curse, James would never learn it, right? JMO of course. Alla. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:19:13 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:19:13 -0000 Subject: Questions In-Reply-To: <20050804191213.49280.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > Geoff Bannister wrote: > Crystalwolf: > My other question is, don't the pictures of Headmasters talk? Are > they a little piece of the headmasters' souls? The pictures of > Harry's parents don't talk, but the pictures on the walls at > Hogwarts often do. > Geoff: Yes, they do talk. There are several conversations between > Dumbledore and Phineas Nigellus in OOTP and some of the other Heads > also comment on occasions. > Juli: Just wanted to add a little thing: Portraits talk ..., but Pictures taken with a camara don't talk, they just move. Don't ask why, my guess is the portrait is done my a wizard/witch, and the Photograph is done by a machine > > > Juli bboyminn: We know from JKR's own statements on the matter that Portraits are not complete people. That is, Harry may now be able to talk to the portrait of Dumbledore, but he will find it very lacking in depth, analytical skill, and understanding. The personality will be there, perhaps even the knowledge, but the depth of character will be missing. Why? I've many times speculated that Protraits are like actors playing a role, they can have a deep understanding of the characters they play, and in the Stage Play or Movie of a particular character's life, they can play him with great depth and feeling, then, if you come to the actor after the movie, and talk to him about the character, you will find his performance was an illusion. He created a great and moving representation of the character, but again, the real depth isn't there. So, while a portrait of a character may play a great role, may very accurately represent the personality of the character, the deeper soul, understanding, and intelligence are not there. So while a Protrait is like an actor in the movie which allows for a great deal of time, knowledge, and insight into the character being played, a Picture is like a 15 or 30 second TV commercial where every person is an exaggerated characterization that we instantly recognise; the cool kid, the smart housewife, the dolt of a husband. So, the point is that Picture are COMPLETELY lacking any depth of character at all, they are simply an image, whereas a Portrait which is a more meticulous and complex representation of a person. The differnces between a Picture and a Portrait, are reflected in the depth of character represented by each. Pictures are such a superficial representation that they don't talk, they simply 'mug' for the viewer. Also, note the depth of the process for creating the character representation. Pictures are simply film that has been processed in a special way. Portraits, despite how quickly Dumbledore's portrait appear, I must assume are made by a deeper process; enchanted paint, talented artists, and a physical piece of the portraits subject is added to the picture; a strand of hair, a bit of skin, or a nail clipping, etc..... A portrait contains some true essense of the living person. So, Pictures - extremely superficial Portraits - having depth of character, very able to accurately represent the subject, but still lacking in true depth. Just one man's opinion. Steveb/bboyminn From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 21:09:57 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:09:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136610 Pat: Your (Susan's) post includes reasons to believe Ginny is using Love Potion Perfume on Harry. You've collected times when Harry felt attraction to one degree or another for Ginny. Each time, he has been near her, and could have been affected by her wearing Love Potion perfume. There are other times that you would expect he would think of her, but doesn't, and he hadn't been near her recently either. The biggest example is that he had no thoughts about going to Ginny's house for Christmas, he only thought about Ron. Either this is inconsistency from Jo and the editors let it go, or there is a reason for it. As far as the flowery scent, look at the possibilities. I'll start with facts, and move to extrapolation. The Burrow has flower beds in the garden (Harry giving a tour of the garden to Scrimgeour confirms it). The trio and Ginny played Quidditch over the garden for weeks, and flowers were most likely in bloom. There are flowers in the twins bedroom. They most probably are from the garden, and therefore smell the same as the garden. If the Weasleys purchased flowers, I don't think they'd put them in the twins bedroom. If the twins make potion disguised as perfume, there is a good chance they used flowers from the Burrows garden, making their potion perfume smell similar to the garden. Their bedroom would have the same scent from using it as a workshop, or from stored stock. There is the possibility that the perfume Ron gave Hermione was from the twins - Ron's nonchalant reaction to Hermione's comment goes better with that than if he went out and bought it from a shop. And what happened to that perfume? Is Hermione wearing it? We didn't think she would, but we didn't think she'd play Quidditch, either. Did she pass it off to Ginny, who recognized what it was from seeing the twins stock at the Burrow? With all of that in mind, when Harry smelled "something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow", there are now many possibilities of what that could mean to him. At that point, Ginny was joining the trio, but I don't think you could say she was one of his favorite things yet. However, being at the Burrow was one of his favorite things, and his bedroom had the flowery scent. Playing Quidditch was also a favorite, and they played over the garden for weeks. So the flowery scent could have meant either of those things to him, just like treacle tart, and the handle of his Firebolt. I think this whole flowery scent business looks very much like a tool for an Emma twist. Watch Harry's thoughts of Ginny turn on and off, depending on whether he's been in close proximity to her in the last 24 hours. I watched for it while I re-read the book, and it holds up. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > Has anyone mentioned/noticed #2 yet? I hadn't noticed it and I thought it was really cool.... Susan: Clues that Harry and Ginny will become involved --- from > The Half-Blood Prince. U.S. Scholastic Edition, July 2005. > > 1. Harry asks Ginny if she wants to find a compartment on the > Hogwarts Express. Ginny says she can't; she needs to meet boyfriend Dean Thomas. > > "'Right,' said Harry. He felt a strange twinge of annoyance as she walked away, her long red hair dancing behind her; he had become so used to her presence over the summer that he had almost forgotten that Ginny did not hang around with him, Ron and Hermione while at school." Pat: If Ginny has never really given up on Harry, and always hoped, this is one example of her covering her true feelings with her behavior. We should see some evidence of disappointment in her response, but we don't. However, her behavior fits with following Hermione's advice to show Harry she had moved on. Also, Harry has been in close proximity to Ginny, and the strange twinge of annoyance could be from that. Otherwise, why use the word "strange". Why not leave it out, or use another word that doesn't have a negative connotation.. >Susan: 2. Harry is in his first Potions class of the term. He sits down by a "gold-colored cauldron that was emitting one of the most seductive scents Harry had ever inhaled: Somehow it reminded him simultaneously of treacle tart, the woody smell of a broomstick handle, and something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow." p. 183. > > We find out that the potion is Amortentia, the "most powerful love potion in the world" Pat: and we see that inhaling the fumes of a potion has an effect on at least 2 people sitting at the same table, and that it is a milder effect than consuming aged Love Potion. > >Susan: Hermione said '"it's supposed to smell differently to each of us, according to what attracts us, and I can smell freshly mown grass and new parchment and ----' But she turned slightly pink and did not complete the sentence." (p. 185) Pat: The new parchment instead of books puzzled me. For a time, I wondered if it referred to corresponding with Viktor, and watching Ron snog Lavender made her miss Viktor. We still don't know the full story on that relationship, and Jo did say Viktor will be back. > > Susan: Then, Hermione, Ron and Harry are in the Great Hall at the Gryffindor table for dinner and "'Hang on,' said a voice close by Harry's left ear and he caught a sudden waft of that flowery smell he had picked up in Slughorn's dungeon. He looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them." (p. 192) Pat: This is the first time the flowery scent is linked to Ginny. Up until now, it was linked to the Burrow. > Susan: ...snip... p. 242. Harry asks Ginny to join him, R and H in Hogsmeade. Ginny refuses; she's going with Dean. Pat: Harry had a reaction there that we are led to believe is from Dumbledore's note. But it could be from Ginny's potion perfume instead, resulting in the sudden invite. And again, Ginny's refusal masks that she never gave up hope on Harry, and goes with showing him she has moved on as part of a plan to get him to like her. > > p. 248. Harry's thoughts strayed to Ginny while walking back from Hogsmeade. He imagines her and Dean cosily closeted in Madam Puddifoots's, that haunt of happy couples .He scowls . Pat: This is an example of the potion perfume lasting for 24 hrs after he's been around her. > >Susan: p. 286. Harry and Ron surprise Dean and Ginny kissing ..something large and scaly erupts in Harry's stomach he wants to jinx Dean into jelly and wants to instantly dismiss Dean from the Quidditch team. > p. 289. Harry feels dizzy, disoriented Pat: To me, these reactions aren't quite right, they're too strong at this point in his noticing Ginny, but fit better with the effects of Love Potion. And yes, they don't match Ron wanting Romilda. Hermione says the twin sell a dozen kinds of love potion, and there is the strengthening with age factor. Why would the twins sell a dozen different kinds? The difference has to be in strength or delivery. > > Susan: "Harry, you've got a maggot in your hair,' said Ginny cheerfully, leaning across the table to pick it out; Harry felt goose bumps erupt up his neck that had nothing to do with the maggots." (p. 339) Pat: This is the best example of Harry's thoughts of Ginny turning on and off. He had no thoughts of going to her house for Christmas, or of her while he was there, until she leaned close enough to take a maggot out of his hair. If it isn't Love Potion perfume, what else could explain that? Pat, who really thinks potions explain the suddenly different characters and relationships in HBP From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:23:20 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:23:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136611 wrote: > Whether he tells Dumbledore about this scene [the Vow] or not (and > I think he does) I disagree; notice on the tower that when Malfoy tells Dumbledore that Snape made the vow, he says "of course he would tell you that." He wantes Malfoy to think that Snape is lying to him about the Vow. It's possible that DD knows the Vow is for real but doesn't want Malfoy to know, but I believe that DD believes what he is saying - he believes that Snape lied to Malfoy. If DD knew it was true, then wouldn't he say something like "yes, and he had my permission" or "I am aware of that, and we have been working to help you reach this point, but now you can decide"? After all, he is trying to convince Malfoy that Snape is on DD's side; if Snape's devotion is complete enough that he and DD have been working within the vow, wouldn't he tell Malfoy that? I think that Snape didn't tell DD about the vow, and the Vow is the reason for Snape's unwillingness to do whatever DD was asking him to do when Hagrid overheard them arguing - whatever it was would kill Snape. Whether Snape ultimately killed DD against his will because of the Vow or if he is really devoted to LV, I guess we will see! As an aside, I don't know why the UV isn't used more often! Why doesn't DD make every teacher do the UV to protect the lives of every student (or just Harry)? Quirrel, at least, wouldn't have been a problem; nor Moody if the Vow took place after he was replaced by Crouch. There'd be no question of Snape's loyalty. Maybe it's seen as dangerously lacking in foresight to have everyone going around staking their lives on an expectation of what the future will require of them... - davenclaw From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:24:58 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:24:58 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > a_svirn: > > > And what does it mean "he was into the dark arts"? Did the courses > > and jinxes James used go under the heading "light arts"? Not to > > mention that he was as quick as his son to employ Snape's own > > inventions. > > > Alla: > > Well, since Sirius is proven to be absolutely correct as to Snape's > being into DA ( to me only of course), I am taking his word as truth > for "James hated Dark Arts". > > I want to say again - I LOVED the irony of James using Snape's > creation against him. > > If Snape never created this curse, James would never learn it, right? > > > JMO of course. > > Alla. Right. But then, since he took time to learn it and didn't hesitate to put it to use doesn't it mean that he "was into the dark arts" himself? As for the irony Well, I suppose there is a certain irony. Just as there definitely is a certain irony in Draco's using Hermione's ideas and literally following her advice in HBP. The question is what does this irony prove? a_svirn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:32:36 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:32:36 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136613 a_svirn: > Right. But then, since he took time to learn it and didn't hesitate > to put it to use doesn't it mean that he "was into the dark arts" > himself? Alla: Oh, I don't know if I consider all curses invented by Snape to be Dark Arts necessarily. Sectusemptra in my mind definitely qualifies. This one could be , or not I am literally not sure, but if it IS Dark Arts curse, then no I don't necessarily think that James was into Dark Arts himself, I think he could have used this curse PRECISELY to show Snape how bad Dark Arts are. This is a speculation, of course. a-svirn: > As for the irony Well, I suppose there is a certain irony. Just as > there definitely is a certain irony in Draco's using Hermione's > ideas and literally following her advice in HBP. The question is > what does this irony prove? Alla: I can definitely tell you what this irony proves to me. :-) It proves to me that the relationships between Marauders and Snape were much more complicated then simply "big bad Marauders bully poor innocent Snape" It again proves to me that we may be in for more discoveries. Again, JMO, Alla. From pansophy2000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 17:03:10 2005 From: pansophy2000 at yahoo.com (pansophy2000) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:03:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136614 Pippin: "I don't think Dumbledore planned to die that night. But Snape would know, being the potions master, the signs that someone was in extremis from poisoning. At the time when Snape arrived on the tower, he was out of choices. If he tried to save Dumbledore, the vow would kill him..." I disagree here...there was nothing about the vow that specified a time line for Snape to take over should Draco fall into trouble. After all, nothing happened to Snape after Draco's two failed attempts to kill DD with the goblet and necklace. The fact that DD never threatened to hurt Draco, IMO, means that Snape was not yet obligated by the vow to step in. Draco could have "tried" to kill DD for the rest of his life, and as long as DD didn't try to stop him then Snape should be clear... So why all happened the way it did...I've started to give up trying to figure it out... -pan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:41:26 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:41:26 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136615 Cindy wrote: > Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard that ever lived, tells Harry that the reason he is drinking the potion instead of Harry is that Harry is MUCH more valuable. > > Yes, Voldemort transfered powers to Harry. So far they have shown up in experiencing Voldemort's thoughts & feelings; speaking > parseltongue; the ability to fight the Imperious Curse--I might be > missing a few other things but there doesn't seem to be anything HUGE that makes Harry so valuable in defeating Voldemort. > So what IS it that is so unique and VALUABLE about Harry? I just hate > to think that at the end of book 7, the OOTP, Ron, Hermione and Ginny > are all pointing their wands at Harry and Voldemort's final > confrontation, all with tears in their eyes as they have to destroy > Harry the Horcrux and then Voldemort. Carol responds: I'm equally puzzled by the idea that Harry's capacity to love exceeds Dumbledore's. And I'm not in the least persuaded by the idea that Harry could be an accidental Horcrux. As numerous posters have pointed out (only to be ignored), a Horcrux is a deliberately chosen object (preferably durable, valuable, and powerfully magical) into which a dark wizard pours part of his soul through complex Dark magic that involves much more than the soul-splitting caused by committing murder. Murder is common in the WW. Horcruxes are not. Nor would voldemort have wished the child he was trying to kill, his potential rival, to be a Horcrux. He wanted Harry dead. Period. What I don't think has been pointed out, however (and of course I haven't read all 12 million posts), is that Harry's scar was not caused by anything entering his body. The AK would have entered him as it did his mother and father and every other AK victim, but thanks to the ancient magic activated by Lily's sacrifice (which I hope was more complex than it appears so far), the Avada Kedavra Curse burst OUT of him. That's what caused the scar, which is still an open wound when baby Harry is placed on the Dursleys' doorstep. The rebounding curse hits Voldemort, ripping his soul from his body, with a resulting explosion that destroys the house. Voldemort--and this is a crucial point--retains what remains of his soul or he could not have survived the encounter. But somehow in the destruction of his *body* some of his powers (Parseltongue, a limited and unique version of Legilimency) are passed to Harry. I like the analogy to shrapnel proposed by another poster. Some of the shrapnel--let's say the ability to cast an Unforgiveable Curse or create a Horcrux--falls harmlessly away from Harry. But a few powers are passed to Harry, possibly through the opening in his forehead, and enter his brain/mind--not his soul. Voldemort tells his Death Eaters in GoF that only one power remained to him, that of possession, but this is not quite correct. His other powers remained suspended because they required the use of a wand, but they were not actually lost. And one other power that did not require the use of a wand, Parseltongue, remained to him. This power, we know, was transferred to Harry without being lost to Voldemort. Is it possible that Harry also has the power of possession? I can't see Harry using an Unforgiveable Curse, the weapon of the Death Eaters, to kill Voldemort. We know (okay, we assume), that he will (with help from other wizards) "kill" the remaining four Horcruxes (Nagini, perhaps, using the Sword of Gryffindor). But what if he destroys Voldemort, who could not endure to possess Harry in OoP, by possessing him, literally killing him with Love? What the consequences would be for Harry, I can't guess. But I certainly like the idea better than "Harry the Horcrux," Harry the cursed and evil object. That's unpalateable and, as far as I can see, contrary to the canonical evidence we have so far on the nature of Horcruxes. Carol, who can't seem to get a response to any of her Snape posts and hopes she'll have better luck with a different thread From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:45:24 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:45:24 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136616 > Alla: > > Oh, I don't know if I consider all curses invented by Snape to be > Dark > Arts necessarily. a_svirn: What DO you consider dark arts then? > Alla: > > Sectusemptra in my mind definitely qualifies. a_svirn: Oh, well I suppose it leaves James off the hook for the time being, but then Harry is in trouble. > Alla: >This one could be , or > not > > I am literally not sure, but if it IS Dark Arts curse, then no I > don't > necessarily think that James was into Dark Arts himself, I think he > could have used this curse PRECISELY to show Snape how bad Dark Arts > are. a_svirn: Finally! Now we know what all this bullying was about! It was for the educational purpose all the way. I suppose that's exactly why Dumbledore presented James with the head boy badge. > Alla: > > I can definitely tell you what this irony proves to me. :-) > > It proves to me that the relationships between Marauders and Snape > were > much more complicated then simply "big bad Marauders bully poor > innocent Snape" > > a_svirn: Why don't you just skip adjectives? "Four marauders bulled Snape". That's more to the point. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Aug 5 21:57:45 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:57:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Madam Pince (was: Was Snape ever loved?) Message-ID: <212.64463ec.30253ad9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136617 In a message dated 8/5/2005 11:30:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com writes: *Now zeldaricdeau*: Firstly, out of curiosity, do we know for sure that Irma is Madam Pince's first name? Sorry, but I can't seem to remember where it was mentioned. It is - both on the Chocolate Frog cards, and in the introductory materials to one of the pair of schoolbooks that JKR wrote (I don't have them to hand, sorry - but I know it's one of them!) Sherrie "Some kid a hundred years from now is going to get interested in the Civil War and want to see these places. He's going to go down there and be standing in a parking lot. I'm fighting for that kid." - Brian Pohanka, 1990 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:58:11 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:58:11 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136618 > > a_svirn: > > What DO you consider dark arts then? Alla: The better question in my mind would be what JKR considers the Dark Arts. I don't know, except that all three Unforgivables definitely qualify, IMO. Also I think the curses which leave wounds ( hence Sectusemptra), but I do think that definitions of DA all together is not quite clear. > > > Alla: > > > > Sectusemptra in my mind definitely qualifies. > > > a_svirn: > > Oh, well I suppose it leaves James off the hook for the time being, > but then Harry is in trouble. Alla: Hmm, Harry was definitely in danger of being seduced by Dark Arts in HBP, IMO. Just like Ginny was in CoS. Isn't it interesting that Snape could care less about it though? I am trying to figure out why Snape did not tell Dumbledore about that book of his, which Harry has and cannot find the answer except - Snape was saving his own skin. Again, speculating here. > > > Alla: > > I am literally not sure, but if it IS Dark Arts curse, then no I > > don't > > necessarily think that James was into Dark Arts himself, I think > he > > could have used this curse PRECISELY to show Snape how bad Dark > Arts > > are. > > a_svirn: > > Finally! Now we know what all this bullying was about! It was for > the educational purpose all the way. I suppose that's exactly why > Dumbledore presented James with the head boy badge. Alla: That was a joke, actually. But seriously, I do believe that NO we don't know what the bullying was all about yet and whether it was a bullying in the first place, or an animosity of rivals. And no, I don' believe that Snape was completely alone in his fights with Marauders, I think that Slytherin gang is mentioned for a reason and n dear Bella only could give Snape a very significant help. > > Alla: > > > > I can definitely tell you what this irony proves to me. :-) > > > > It proves to me that the relationships between Marauders and Snape > > were > > much more complicated then simply "big bad Marauders bully poor > > innocent Snape" > > > > > > a_svirn: > > Why don't you just skip adjectives? "Four marauders bulled Snape". > That's more to the point. Alla: Not to me. JMO , Alla. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 14:31:56 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:31:56 -0000 Subject: Headmaster/Physician Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136619 I posted something similar a bit ago, but am wanting to know what you all think: I thought it odd that time was taken for Ginny to draw attention to Madame Pomfrey's reaction to DD's death. Then I recently read this quote from the book: "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed this much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." Dumbledore Sorcerer's Stone I remember when I read that the first time, and how odd it was that something so benign would cause him to blush. But when you put the two together.....I wonder......Maybe they had a secret brewing... Casmir From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 22:04:28 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:04:28 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books - Molly (long) In-Reply-To: <20050804002009.44498.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136620 > >>Betsy Hp: > Speaking as someone who loaths Molly Weasley and her methods of > mothering, I think her children are a *perfect* example of how > she's *not* a good mother. > >>Juli: > Are you joking? or it it sirious? > Betsy Hp: I'm serious. Molly bugs the heck out of me. And I don't see the Weasleys as an "ideal family". I've seen Norman Rockwell pictures. The Weasleys ain't it. Because, yes, people get jobs out of the country all the time. And especially as wizards one would think it'd be easy for the two oldest boys to pop home every now and again for a family get together. But they don't. Bill comes home because of the war. Charlie comes home for tickets to the Quidditch World Cup. Percy, more overtly (I think because Percy, of all the Weasley children, is excruciatingly honest, often to his own detriment), full out left his family behind. > >>Elizabeth: > > Truthfully, of the Weasely children he is the most spoiled and it > shows. Molly did dote on him. Perhaps he's angry with her for not > toughening him a bit more. > Betsy Hp: If Percy's angry at Molly for anything, I imagine it's because he followed her instructions exactly and it led him to a childhood of being mocked and ganged up on by the twins, and an adulthood of being mocked and condecedended to by his father (from Percy's POV anyway). Molly didn't spoil Percy. She used him as a weapon against the twins. Unfortunately, Percy wasn't strong enough for the task she set him up for, and she lost him over it. Ron, quite wisely, chose not to follow Percy's path. And though he's certainly not a favorite of the twins, by following their lead instead of his mother's he was never attacked as viciously by the twins as Percy was (though Ron was definitely attacked). Molly certainly punished Ron for choosing the twins over her. He became her invisible son. Always getting the crappiest of the Weasley sweaters, sent to a formal in ridiculous dress robes that Molly doesn't even *attempt* to alter. But, since Molly's instructions really aren't that great to begin with (see Percy) Ron was able to forge his own way. He definitely bought into his mother's sense of his worthlessness (quidditch, apparating, dating, etc.) but fortunately Hermione and Harry have been incredibly good at shoring up his self-esteem. > >>Betsy Hp: > >Ginny is an accomplished liar and has a rather cruel temper when > >she's pushed. > >>Juli: > When you were 15 didn't you lie to your mom? I did, and a lot. > When is she cruel? when she casts a bat-boggers or whatever on > someone? it's not cruel it's funny, if she was crucioing everyone, > that would be cruel. Betsy Hp: Oh sure, I lied to my mom. But she saw right through it. Ginny is quite good at it. But honestly, it's her cruelty that I think is most Weasley inspired. (I think this may be more a twins thing -- Ginny is definitely their girl in a way that Ron was never their boy.) For one, her cruelty is generally reserved for Ron (the twins choice of punching bag after Percy). Though Percy definitely came in for some underhanded hits. Ginny lets slip to the twins that he has a girlfriend in PS/SS. And frankly, her "oh dear, don't tease him, please" rang a bit false to me. How long has she been living with the twins again? But when Ginny gets mad, Ron is usually the one to pay. The way she trips him when he was about to kiss Fluer good-bye was unkind. Her words to him in the corridor when he catches her kissing Dean were certainly cruel, and said to hurt. Of course, I'm not saying Ginny's this evil little girl who should be stopped. The interaction in the corridor is pretty realistic of a fight between siblings. I'm just saying that she's not perfect. She's not ideal. And I think her flaws have come about because the Weasley family is not perfect and not ideal. > >>Betsy Hp: > >The twins hold a special place, because I think they are most > >Molly's boys. > > >>Juli: > Destruction? What animal did they kill at age 7? > Betsy Hp: Ron's puffskein. I believe this happened when Ron was five, but I could be mistaken. (I can find the revelent quote in FB&WTFT, but not in HBP where I believe more details are given.) Fred apparently used Ron's puffskein for bludger practice. Which means, effectively, that Fred hit a small furry animal with a cricket bat until it was dead. Not very pleasant, IMO. > >>Julie: > Which classmate they tried to kill? Montasgue (sp?), they didn't > try to kill him, they just shoved him into a cabinet, and it was > an act of self-defense. Betsy Hp: Self defense? Montague was trying to take house points from them and they pitched him into the Vanishing Cabinet. What exactly were they defending? When Hermione expresses shock, they're rather cold- blooded about the whole thing. "Not until Montague reappears, and that could take weeks, I dunno where we sent him," said Fred coolly. (OotP scholastic p.627) As it turns out, they sent him into a sort of limbo that Montague nearly died escaping. "In the end, he managed to Apparate out, even though he'd never passed his test. He nearly died doing it." (HBP scholastic p.587) Which sounds to me like Montague was forced into using the wild magic wizards are able to call on when in extreme danger or in a high emotional state. The twins have never expressed any sort of remorse, and they never worried when Montague didn't reappear. And, IIRC, they don't worry when Montague does reappear in a rather bad state. It doesn't speak too highly of them, frankly. > >>Julie: > What have they done to Ron? and to Percy? They've made a few > jokes on them, so what, my brother used to play pranks on me all > the time, and I don't hold it against him. Betsy Hp: Did your brother play pranks on you at your workplace? Because, yes, siblings will tease each other, but some areas of your life should be off limits. The twins don't seem to have any limits. Especially when it comes to Percy. Did your brother ever bludgeon a pet of yours to death? Did he ever play a prank that if successful could have well led to your death? (I'm refering to the Unbreakable Vow here.) I'd also point out that with the twins it was always two against one. And they honestly don't seem to care if someone gets hurt. Even killed. As long as they get a laugh then it's all good, and I think there's something really wrong with that sort of attitude. Frankly, I place the blame for the twins' attitude squarely on their parents. Arthur, for some reason, checked out of his family. He put all of his effort into his work and his hobby. And since Molly's method of discipline is more "DO AS I SAY!", than "this is wrong and here's why" it's no wonder that the twins have such a horrible sense of responsiblity. (A perfect illustration of this, IMO, is the different parental reactions, and the twin's responses, after their attack on Dudley in GoF.) > >>Betsy Hp: > >As to Molly's relationship with Arthur, their marriage doesn't > seem all that great, IMO. > > >>Juli: > what's wrong with their relationship? So Molly is the 'boss', she > sets the rules, it doesn't seem wrong. Betsy Hp: Actually, I think that's *exactly* what's wrong with the Weasley family as a whole. Molly is too judgmental and small-minded to be the boss. Obviously Arthur hates it, that's why he's hardly ever home. > >>Julie: > Of course he's working all day, he's got a family to support, I > would complain if he was letting his kids starve! Betsy Hp: He works all night too. And that's a problem. > >>Julie: > He plays with muggle things, it's a healthy hobby. Betsy Hp: One that Molly despises, unfortunately, and so one he's not able to include any of his family members in. It may have done his kids some good if they were included in some of his tinkering. (Though I sometimes get the feeling that the Weasely children don't respect their father all that much.) >>Julie: > He disciplines Fred and George, but their personality is like that > he can't change it, they are pranksters, that's who they are. Betsy Hp: The twins are bit darker than the average prankster. Too many of their victims end up in the hospital wing, IMO. (Christ, Ron may have ended up raping Romilda Vane if Harry hadn't been quick on his feet there, and all thanks to his brothers.) And they feel no remorse for it. Which is a bad sign. And frankly, I think it's because Arthur *wasn't* disciplining them, their mother was. > >>Elizabeth: > They've been married twenty-plus years. The honeymoon phase ended > some time ago. They seem to have a solid friendship and a good > working relationship, though. > Betsy Hp: Are they friends? What Arthur cares deeply about Molly thinks as so much nonsense. It was fairly obvious, IMO, through Molly's talk with Harry when he first arrived at the Burrow that Arthur wasn't all that thrilled with his promotion. But Molly *loves* it. And when they were listening to the Christmas music it seemed fairly obvious, again IMO, that Arthur was merely gritting his teeth with the rest of the family. He didn't seem all that interested in the walk down memory lane that Molly was taking. I don't think Arthur despises Molly, or anything, but I don't think their marriage is all that great. I think Arthur is being noble. (Actually I think they may well mirror the Bennetts from Austen's "Pride & Prejudice") > >>Juli: > Why is it wrong to let the kids know there isn't a lot of money? Betsy Hp: It's not. But is it normal to show your kids (and their friends!) the bank balance? That scene just bothered me. > >>Juli: > OMG, are you sirious? ESE!Molly? NO WAY. Betsy Hp: I'm serious when I say I doubt Molly is ESE. Actually, if any of the Weasleys are going to turn out ESE, my money is on the twins. Of the family the twins are the most ruthless, and it was interesting to me that it was their products (and their oh so funny prank) that enabled Death Eaters to get into Hogwarts (and nearly kill their brother). However, I don't feel like I've got a good read on how JKR sees the twins. Does she see them as just harmless pranksters, albeit ones that skate awfully close to a body count? Or is she foreshadowing something a bit more sinister? Only book 7 will tell. Betsy Hp From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 5 22:06:11 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:06:11 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136621 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > Alla: > > Hmm, Harry was definitely in danger of being seduced by Dark Arts in > HBP, IMO. Just like Ginny was in CoS. > > Isn't it interesting that Snape could care less about it though? > > I am trying to figure out why Snape did not tell Dumbledore about > that book of his, which Harry has and cannot find the answer except - > Snape was saving his own skin. > > Again, speculating here. Oh, I think Dumbledore knew a lot about Snape and what he was like at Hogwarts - I don't think that escaped his attention. and I also think that DD asked Snape to put that book in Slughorn's reserves, for Harry. As we know, Harry didn't expect to take advanced potions in his 6th year, as Snape only wanted Outstanding students. But since DD got Slughorn, he knew that Harry could get back into that class. He didn't tell Harry about what Slughorn was teaching deliberatly, IMHO, so that Harry would not buy the book and would be forced to get Snape's book. Since Snape was a DE, I don't think DD would have been shocked or surprised at his book, so the excuse that Snape didn't *want* DD to know about it is weak - but just my opinion. colebiancardi From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 22:13:01 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:13:01 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136622 > > Alla: > > The better question in my mind would be what JKR considers the Dark > Arts. I don't know, except that all three Unforgivables definitely > qualify, IMO. > > Also I think the curses which leave wounds ( hence Sectusemptra), > but I do think that definitions of DA all together is not quite > clear. a_svirn: Yes, I quite agree. I think it's singularly the most important question of the whole HP saga. However, since we don't know the answer, wouldn't it be prudent to withhold our judgement concerning so-and-so's being into the dark arts until such time this information is finally disclosed? > Alla: > > But seriously, I do believe that NO we > don't know what the bullying was all about yet a_svirn: Seriously, I believe that bullying is only ever about bullying. Alla: >and whether it was a > bullying in the first place . a_svirn: Yes, it was. From tab1669 at elnet.com Fri Aug 5 21:51:34 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:51:34 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136623 > Pat: Your (Susan's) post includes reasons to believe Ginny is using > Love Potion Perfume on Harry. You've collected times when Harry > felt attraction to one degree or another for Ginny. Each time, he > has been near her, and could have been affected by her wearing Love > Potion perfume. There are other times that you would expect he > would think of her, but doesn't, and he hadn't been near her > recently either. Flyingmonkeypuple: If Ginny was using the love potion on Harry why would she still be dating Dean. IF I were going to spend all my time making Harry love me I would totally make myself available. Otherwise it would be pointless to make him jealous, when she knows she can have him. Unless she wants to see him suffer. Flyingmonkeypuple. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 22:19:39 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:19:39 -0000 Subject: Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136624 Elizabeth wrote: "Consider this instead: Romilda Vane gave cauldron cakes to Harry spiked with love potion made by fred and George. Who's to blame for this? Fred and George for making and selling it or Romilda for using it unethically?" Del replies: Those Love Potions sound very much like drugs to me. Like the rape drugs, in particular. They are *designed* to make someone act in a romantic/sexual way *even if they would never choose to act that way without the Potion*. So I say that the manufacturers of those drugs *should* be held responsible for putting them on the market, and the users should be held responsible for using them. Both behaviours are criminal IMO. Not to mention, of course, that Fred and George intentionally and deliberately help the students break the rules of Hogwarts. They *know* that Love Potions are *forbidden* at Hogwarts, so they send them undercover of something else. That's highly irresponsible and reprehensible IMO. Elizabeth wrote: "If I did such a thing and gave it to my spouse on Valentine's Day, is my behavior equal to hers? " Del replies: Yes, if you do it without his/her consent or at least knowledge. Taking someone's free agency away from them, and forcing them to act in the way you want (even if it is to do something that they would have done anyway), is criminal IMO. Some countries have (rightfully IMO) legislated that there is such a thing as spouse rape. Elizabeth wrote: "If I have a gun and use it to stop a criminal from coming into my house in the dark of night without consent, who is to blame if I kill that person?" Del replies: You said so yourself: you use it to *stop* a *criminal*. That's not AT ALL comparable with the Love Potions, whose purpose is to *forcefully induce* a specific behaviour in an *innocent and often unaware victim*. Del From wintryshowers at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 21:43:51 2005 From: wintryshowers at yahoo.com (Regina Freitag) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spinner's End - Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805214351.4437.qmail@web60422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136625 Glenna wrote: Bear with me here I'm very very new at this. I have read and reread this chapter and the one thing that sticks in my mind is... Was Draco supposed to kill DD, or was he just being used to fix the broken cabinet at Hogwarts so that the DE's could get in. He may have bragged that he could fix anything and Voldmort decided to test him and have him fix it, if he couldn't he told him he would kill him. If this were the case then Snape didn't have to kill DD. The other thing that come to mind is the phrase " they can't kill you if your already dead " and the thought that maybe the White Tomb isn't a tomb but a hiding place. Just me ever the optimist. Glenna That's an interesting theory, and I do hope you're right about Dumbledore. :-) But as for Draco's task, it is in my opinion more likely that Voldemort's order was to kill Dumbledore. At Spinner's End, Narcissa points out that not even Voldemort had succeeded in what he ordered Draco to do. Voldemort would certainly like to get rid of Dumbledore and he did fail to do so in the Ministry. Of course he could have although tried to find a possibility to get access to the castle from outside, despite the protection spells, but, I guess, even though I'm not sure, that if he had planned that earlier, maybe even as a student, he could have accomplished it. Creating horcruxes seems to be much more complicated than that. Moreover, repairing the cabinet so that the DE could get entrance would not necessarily have put him into danger, like an attempt of murder would. And Narcissa considers it highly dangerous for Draco. But your theory is very appealing, maybe Rowling has tricked us all. I merely pointed out a few things that seem to speak against it, but there have been much more surprising revelations in the Potter books. Dumbledore would be able to fake his own death, no doubt. Regina. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 22:36:07 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:36:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's Vow: Why? (Re: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136626 > >>lealess: > I think he took the vow for two reasons: > 1) a calculated gamble to find out more information about Draco's > task, as part of his job as a spy; > 2) genuine curiosity as part of his nature (trailing the > Marauders, for example, if that is true, and willingness to > explore beyond what the book says). Betsy Hp: Mmmm... That seems like a *huge* gamble to me. I'm of the opinion that even if Snape didn't know Draco's task going into the Spinner's End interview, he knew it before he took the Vow. Because he's putting his *life* on the line with the Vow. And couldn't he have accomplished the same thing by merely assuring Narcissa that he would look out for Draco? That would give him whatever in he deemed necessary for questioning Draco, IMO. "Ask your mother, Draco, I'm here to help you." > >>Rae_nd: > I read the final action of "Spinner's End" (one of my favorite all > time HP chapters) as Snape being pressured into the Vow by Bella's > suspicions. No matter where his loyalties lie, the questioning of > his motives could be dangerous for him. Bellatrix' shock upon the > completion of the Vow shows me that she may have to grudgingly > admit that Snape is on Voldemort's side 100%. Betsy Hp: My problem with that take on the situation is isn't Snape going *against* Voldemort by taking the Vow? Everyone, Bellatrix included, says that Draco is meant to take this task on *alone*. Isn't Snape going around Voldemort in Vowing to help Draco? (This chapter is one of my favorite too. Though it's running neck and neck with "Sectumsempra".) > >>Leslie41: > > You see by the end of the novel that Snape has indeed become the > acknowledged leader of the Death Eaters. In the absence of > Voldemort they do what he says without question. So that much has > been accomplished by the Unbreakable Vow, among other things. Betsy Hp: Is that caused by the Unbreakable Vow? I thought Snape was considered Voldemort's "Death Eater of the year" before Narcissa and Bellatrix show up on his doorstep. Yes, Bellatrix shows doubt, but I imagine she's a bit low on the totem pole at this point, what with her involvement in the DoM fiasco. > >>Leslie41: > I personally think he wasn't aware of the construct of the task for > Draco when Bellatrix and Narcissa arrived. And when he offers to > help it's his way of getting an "in" on the situation with Draco at > Hogwarts, to better have an excuse for keeping an eye on him. > Narcissa brings up the Unbreakable Vow, which truthfully I don't > think Snape was thinking of at that point. But when she mentions > it his face is "blank, unreadable." He's thinking. > Betsy Hp: Oh yes, I totally agree that Snape's mind is *racing* when he's asked to take the Vow. And so I think he *must* have a very good reason, in his opinion, for taking it. I just... Well, maybe I'm mistaken in thinking that Voldemort seriously wants Draco to die in his attempt to kill Dumbledore. Because if Voldemort *does* hold out some hope of Draco succeeding (Draco, as Dumbledore points out, *is* an innocent and so might succeed in slipping under Dumbledore's guard) then I can see Voldemort being thrilled by Snape's willingness to help Draco achieve his task. And it would also mean that the Death Eaters would see him as being seriously *on task* rather than running behind Voldemort's back to help out a damsel in distress (in Death Eater fashion, of course). > >>Leslie41: > He understands at that moment that he might have to kill > Dumbledore. But I think he also understands that Dumbledore > himself would have--at that moment--agreed and encouraged him to > take the vow to accomplish just what the vow accomplishes. > Betsy Hp: I think Snape was also willing for himself to die, if it kept Draco safe, and helped him provide necessary information to the Order. (I honestly think Snape was willing to die for Dumbledore. Which makes his actions at the end of HBP that much more painful.) I think that even if the Vow was taken mainly to give Snape room to keep Draco safe (though I'm starting to rethink that theory) Dumbledore would have been all for it. He's a big one for saving innocents, is Dumbledore. (I also agree that Dumbledore was dying in his very first scene. A magical injury that never gets better is a bad sign for future health, IMO.) Betsy Hp From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 22:45:04 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:45:04 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136627 hg: Okay, Carol, I'm guessing this is the post you're so eager to hear a reply to? I'm up to the job, I hope; just do me a favor and look at one of mine, 136339. Like you, I've been hovering over the board, waiting. I should begin by saying that I thought the post was brilliant. My question going in is this: When does Snape discover what exactly he vowed to help Draco do (whom he vowed to help Draco kill)? At Spinner's End (did he already know, or upon taking the Vow), or at the Christmas talk, or the forest row, or when Harry nearly murders Draco, or up on the Tower? I have a feeling that he realizes it on the Tower, although Dumbledore knew all along Draco's intended victim was him. It seems to me that in Spinner's End Snape thinks he's agreeing to kill Harry, that he was agreeing to the Vow because he needed to know what the plan was. Do I need to re-read? > Carol: > It seems certain to me that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow. > First, he is not surprised when Harry mentions it, indicating that > Snape has already told him about his confrontation with Draco. Second, > Dumbledore knows that Draco has been trying to kill him all year. He > has not suspected anyone but Draco or been misled as to Draco's > intended victim. He also knows or suspects that Draco has an > accomplice outside Hogwarts, information that could be deduced from > what Snape (or Harry) told him. hg: Agreed. And it could still be that Dumbledore knows what Snape vowed to do without Snape knowing. Carol: Snape's conversation with Draco occurs > between the necklace incident and the poisoned mead... Almost certainly Snape is > following Dumbledore's orders in speaking to Draco, not acting on his > own because of the vow. Certainly he is not doing it because he wants > to steal Draco's "glory." His idea of "helping" Draco, up to that > point, has been to put his two accomplices in detention. Now he is > forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct action. At any > rate, Draco's party crashing gives him an opportunity that can't be > passed up. hg: I agree that Dumbledore put him up to more direct action. But can't it also be that he's trying to figure out (and quick) just what he vowed to help with? Carol: > When Harry tells Dumbledore about this conversation, Dumbledore is not > only not surprised, he tells Harry that it's likely he understands > more from it than Harry does, a statement that the reader ought also > to consider... So Dumbledore knows, at the very least, that > Draco is trying to kill him and that Snape has taken an Unbreakable > Vow to help and protect him. Surely Dumbledore knows, even without the > being told the third clause, that "help" was intended by Narcissa to > mean "help Draco kill Dumbledore." Yet he continues to trust Snape. > Conclusion: Snape has already told him exactly what Harry has told > him, he knows exactly the terrible bind that Snape has placed him in, > and he knows that Snape's definition of "help" differs from Narcissa's. hg: We might add that Dumbledore's mood in his meeting with Harry that follows the row in the forest is clearly off. Dumbledore's probably been living on borrowed time up until now, and if he put it all together following the row, he'd realize the time was even shorter. Carol: [big snip here] > Snape tries a variety of tactics in this conversation [beautifully detailed explanation in Carol's original post]. Draco is supremely unconcerned that Snape has put his life on the line...The interview has been a fiasco. There is no point in making a second attempt. > No doubt Snape has told Dumbledore exactly this. "I don't know what > he's doing. He won't talk to me. I've lost my influence over him. Even > mentioning the Unbreakable Vow didn't do any good. There's nothing I > can say or do to stop him." > > It's possible, too, that Snape is afraid that trying to stop him will > make matters worse instead of better, in part because of the conflict > between his idea of helping Draco (preventing him from doing the deed) > and Narcissa's idea of "help" (assisting him). Surely he could have > pushed past Draco's easily detectable attempt at Occlumency, but he > doesn't do it, either because he doesn't want to further alienate the > already uncooperative Draco and arouse his suspicions that Snape is > planning to tell Dumbledore what he found out, or because he is afraid > that if he finds out what Draco is doing, he'll be forced by the vow > to aid him. I think it's primarily the second reason. hg: I like that second reason, too, but I wonder if we'd have to see a turn from Snape in the conversation. A realization that this Vow was more than he bargained for. I'm not sure I can pinpoint a moment like that; can you? I think fear of further arousing Draco's suspicions is part of Snape's motivation, whether the second reason is true or not. Carol: > Snape's row with Dumbledore in the forest (where they won't be > overheard by the portraits) occurs after Draco's second bungled > attempt to kill Dumbledore backfires. Snape knows that > his influence on Draco is gone. ...He > can't even put Draco in detention, which would violate the vow > by openly hindering him. No wonder he explodes and tells Dumbledore > that he takes too much for granted and that he, Snape, doesn't want to > do it any more. In fact, he > may be afraid that [his efforts to help/stop Draco may] make matters even worse... I think that what Snape doesn't want to do any more > has nothing to do with teaching DADA or staying at Hogwarts. It has to > do with continuing his futile efforts to deal with Draco. I think > Dumbledore reminds him that he must at least keep an eye on Draco, > perhaps to see where he's going and who his accomplices are... But that he (grudgingly) agrees to > follow Draco is shown by his being right at hand when Moaning Myrtle > screams "Murder in the bathroom!" At that point Snape almost certainly > realizes that Dumbledore is right. Had he not been following Draco, > Draco would have died--and so would Snape, for having broken the > provision of his vow that requires him to protect Draco. > Carol, who sees Snape as trapped rather than evil in HBP. hg: I snipped as much as I could. I am utterly convinced that you're right. "I don't want to be a double agent anymore" doesn't make any sense, but "I don't want to try to help/stop Draco" does. Each encounter with Draco must seem perilously closer to one or both of them dying. I, too, see Snape as trapped. Voldemort is certainly in my estimation using Narcissa's love for her son and Snape's connection to Draco to force a decisive loyalty-proving action out of Snape. I've been wondering if Dumbledore, too, wasn't forcing Snape's hand. That would probably make the most sense only if Snape didn't tell Dumbledore what he suspected Draco to be up to, and if Dumbledore didn't tell Snape what HE suspected. I've been at a loss for a way to demonstrate my guess that Dumbledore, like Voldemort, is forcing Snape's hand. Any trust that Dumbledore has for Snape, in any event, isn't blind. Great post, sorry I never saw it until today. hg. > From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 15:34:29 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:34:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Emma, Twists, and HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136628 anasazi_pr wrote: > Pat, I really love your analysis. But I think we are forgetting > two things: > 1) Unlike Emma, Harry Potter is a children's book > 2) JK Rowling is no Jane Austen > > I can only wish it wasn't like this, not because of the shipping > angle, but because I think the HP books lack both in subtletly and > in emotional layers, something JA excelled at. But is more than > highly unlikely, specially after the interviews. To pull a twist > like that in the seventh book after that interview will be cruel > to both camps in the shipping wars. Pat: Jo never intended to aim the books at children. I know it was a long post - did you see the two quotes where she said she wrote it for herself, as something she would like to read, and that since she's 33, this is probably why adults like the books? The publishers made the decision it was a children's book, just like they decided that she needed to call the Philosopher's Stone a Sorcerer's Stone. As far as Jo being no Jane Austen, I think that remains to be seen. If book 7 continues on with the strangeness that was book 6, then you're right. But if instead, she reveals deceptions and twists that explain why book 6 could have been written and published like that, then she has shot for her target. And if she did, will we like it? We probably will if it's in regard to Snape or Dumbledore's death, but in the shipping, only if it goes the way we'd like. From smollon at pacbell.net Fri Aug 5 17:02:04 2005 From: smollon at pacbell.net (Sandra) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:02:04 -0000 Subject: Snape/Dumbledore argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136629 catjaneway wrote: > "My theory on what Snape doesn't want to do anymore is... teach > DADA. DD and Snape both know the position is cursed/limited to > one year. Snape initially agreed to take the risk (why?), but he > is beginning to realize that things are not going well for him." Inge: > So it could very well be that Dumbledore has kept Snape from > teaching DADA because of the jinx on the job? Dumbledore can't > afford to lose Snape as a teacher - but why is it that he then > gives Severus the DADA-job in Harry's 6th year anyway - knowing it > may just mean the end of Snape teaching at Hogwarts? Sandra: It occurred to me that it worked out very well for Harry that Snape was not teaching potions this year. Harry would not have been able to continue taking Potions (he did not recieve an "O" in his owls in Potions, and therefore Snape would not have let him continue in Potions). We know that Harry needs Potions in order to proceed in his quest to be an Auror. Maybe DD moves Snape to DADA for Harry's benefit? I also think that I missed a big clue from JKR while reading HBP--I should have known that Snape would be gone from Hogwarts after this year! From has103 at soton.ac.uk Fri Aug 5 23:04:39 2005 From: has103 at soton.ac.uk (solskjaer_crazy) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:04:39 -0000 Subject: Sectumsempra - have we seen it already? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136630 First I want to say hello as I haven't been on this site since just after OOTP came out (to be honest that book really put me off HP and I just haven't been interested since) but now HBP has got me back and interested again :D Second I want to appologise if someone has already bought this up but I am slowly making my way through the posts since HBP came out and I have about 1000 left to go... *shame faced* I have done a search on this and nothing came up so hopefully it's kinda fresh ground :D. Basically I'm just wondering if we haven't seen Sectumsempra before... . the cannon is being prepared but I would like to explain that this is partly in response to a number of posts asking how Harry was able to cast the spell correctly the first time when he didn't know the correct "swish and flick" movement as well as the word and partly cos it's something that I thought of the moment I read that part of the book and it's bugging me that no one else seems to have mentioned it (in the posts I've managed to read so far). Cannon (from UK childrens editions): OOTP Bottom of Pg 698 "Silencio" cried Hermione and the man's voice was extinguished. He continuied to mouth through the hole in his mask, but no sound came out. He was thrust aside by his fellow death eater (...) "Well done Ha--" But the death eater Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden slashing movement with his wand; a streak of what looked like purple flame passed across Hermione's chest. She gave a tiny "Oh!" as though of surprise and crumpled on to the floor, where she lay motionless" Later on in the same book we are told: Bottom of P746-747 The curse Dolohov had used against her, though less effective than it would have been had he been able to say the incantation aloud, had nevertheless caused, in Madam Pomfrey's words, "quite enough damge to be going on with". And then the description of the spell when Harry uses it on Malfoy in HBP: Very top of Pg489 "SECTUMSEMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly. Blood spurted from Malfoy's face and chest as though he had been slashed with an invisable sword" Ok so why am I thinking anything here, a number of things: Both are slashing/cutting injuries for a start even though one is chest only and one is face and chest but this can be explained because Dolohov made a (i.e. ONE) "slashing movement", he slashed across Hermione's chest. Harry "waved his wand wildly" hence he had the correct motion (the "swish and flick") and got not only Malfoy's chest but face as well. Additionally perhaps Hermione didn't spurt blood everywhere because the spell was not complete (it had no audiable incantation with it) and possibly didn't actually cut her open so to speak, I do not remember any talk of her having an open wound although I could be wrong about that as I have avoided reading OOTP more than twice (see opening paragraph)whereas Malfoy got the full force and therefore had to be treated for more serious injuries much quicker than Hermione needed treatment(I'm not sure exactly how long their respective recovery times were). The purple flame could easily have been obscured by the blood spurting from Malfoy's chest as it is not said to come from the wand but to "pass across the chest" and even if it does come from the wand, JK is known to not always tell us the colour of a spell (Sirius' death anyone?) and no flame or sparks are mentioned with Harry's cast. And just to see if it gave me any extra help in seeing if these two could be the same spell I went and looked up "sectum" in a latin dictionary and most of the words that came up were of the variety that mean "to cut" "cutter" "cutting" "to be able to cut" and "cut" so that kinda, well supports the idea perhaps? ;) (other words that came up were of the "follower" "to follow" and "way of life" variety) I'm not saying this is the same spell just wondering if it could be. And if it is what does it mean? See that would imply that Snape has indeed given the DEs some advantages in the past (his DA spells that he wrote in his potions book) either by telling his friends at school those spells as other posts seem to have speculated or else doing the same when he was a DE (or both?). I don't know if this helps HRH in anyway, maybe it does cos they now have the ability to find out some of the spells they are up against but this was more me asking if anyone else thinks it might be the same spell than speculating on what it might mean for book 7 as I'm not sure it means anything at all... so what do people think and if this has been addressed before then sorry and can you direct me to the posts? Holly Whose really enjoying the posts she's reading, especially as she is currently clinging to a "desperate hope" that Snape is good (despite having always been perfectly neutral about him before HBP!!!) From shgupta83 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 17:41:40 2005 From: shgupta83 at yahoo.com (shgupta83) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:41:40 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136631 Pat: > I noticed that whenever Slughorn praised Harry for something in > also that Slughorn credited it to Harry having inherited his > mother's talents for potions. This means something along the lines > that Lily and Snape knew the same kinds of tips and tricks. What > do you think that means? > I was wondering if there was a possiblity that Snape asked > Voldemort not to kill Lily went he went to kill Harry. vmonte: > I've been thinking that the healing spell that Snape used on Draco > might be something that Snape learned from Lily. Are we going to > come across a Lily spell book next? I was also thinking along the lines that Snape may have had a romantic interest in Lily. If one is to believe Dumbledore's explanation that Snape felt genuine remorse for him being the cause of James and Lily's death, it makes much more sense to think he only felt sorry because Lily was killed as well. It was because of him the one woman he loved was killed. I find it hard to believe, as even Lupin stated in HBP, that Snape would feel remorse for James's death. He would be all to happy to have James out of the way, but I can imagine a scenario where he was greatly hurt by Lily's death, and therefore decided to join Dumbledore. Dumbledore may have known this, and it fits in nicely with his whole theory of love. He knew Snape loved Lily and would do anything to get back at Voldemort. Also, although I cant remember of the top of my head, when Snape harrasses Harry through the books I can't recall him ever directly insulting Lily. He has continually insulted James and Sirius to Harry's face, but he never singled out Lily. Maybe this also shows his soft spot for her. "shgupta83" From ngermany at excite.com Fri Aug 5 17:53:30 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:53:30 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136632 phoenixgod wrote: > Arthur does do things counter to Molly's wishes on a number of > occasions and almost all of them he does behind her back. It's > never, no dear, you are just wrong, its 'shush, come over here > Harry'. What kind of "relationship" is it when the man has go around > his wife in secret whenever he does something she doesn't like? One of survival. Molly and Arthur are friends, dear. This is what friends do. What they can't change about the other they accept and work around. Elizabeth From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 5 23:13:17 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:13:17 -0000 Subject: My feelings In-Reply-To: <20050805153657.93340.qmail@web33813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136633 > Now, I need your help, can please anybody help me to find the way to see all of what happened with other perspective, with another point of view that wont meke me feel as sad as I feel now?. I need to be able to feel god about the HP world again, because it has been a really good part of my life so far. > > Virginia. houyhnhnm: I felt exactly the way you do when I finished the book. I had gotten so involved with the characters, I was as grief-stricken as if a real person had died. I hated JK Rowling and I vowed I would not bother to read the seventh book. However, after a few days when I began to re-read sections of the book I started to think things are not as they seem. This has been a theme throughout the books. Seeing is not believing. When you get a chance to read the posts on this site, you will see what I mean. I also went back and re-read the Mugglenet interview with Rowling. The first time I read it I thought she was a smart-aleck millionairess who'd managed put over one big joke on the world, so that's what I read into the interview. When I read it again a couple of days ago I had a completely different impression. I think the story will end in a way that makes moral sense, even if the ending is not exactly what each individual reader wishes for. From shgupta83 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 18:44:57 2005 From: shgupta83 at yahoo.com (shgupta83) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:44:57 -0000 Subject: Harry not a Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136634 I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, and I apoligize if I'm just repeating it, but I don't think voldemort has finished making his horcruxes yet. Dumbledore said that when Harry's parents died, Voldemort only had 5 horcruxes, not including himself. After he failed in his attempt to kill Harry, I believe he was still 1 horcrux short of his goal. Dumbledore says that after being regenerated he made Nagini a horcrux. I find this part of the explanation unlikely, because Voldemort has a fixation on killing Harry personally. In GOF, Wormtail told voldemort the task of regenerating his body could be done much easier without having to capture and kill Harry. However Voldemort insisted on using Harry. Even in HBP, Voldemort orders his death eaters not to kill Harry. We know that he uses special deaths to create the Horcruxes, so I really think hes waiting to kill Harry to make his final one. If this were true, then it eliminates either Nagini as a horcrux (which maybe he intends to use as the object for the horcrux once he kills Harry) or one of the other remaining horcruxes (the cup, or the object from Gryfindor/Ravenclaw) as being a real horcrux. It seems unlikey with so many loose ends to tie up in book seven, Rowling can actually fit a plot line of Harry searching and destroying 4 more Horcruxes. shgupta83 From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Aug 5 23:14:23 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:14:23 -0000 Subject: parental roles in HP books - Molly (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136635 > > >>Juli: > > Destruction? What animal did they kill at age 7? > > > > Betsy Hp: > Ron's puffskein. I believe this happened when Ron was five, but I > could be mistaken. (I can find the revelent quote in FB&WTFT, but > not in HBP where I believe more details are given.) Fred apparently > used Ron's puffskein for bludger practice. Which means, > effectively, that Fred hit a small furry animal with a cricket bat > until it was dead. Not very pleasant, IMO. > Betsy...could you please find the exact citation for this? I'd like to follow up on this.... Susan From ramyamicro at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 19:20:11 2005 From: ramyamicro at yahoo.com (Ramya) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:20:11 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136636 wrote: > Harry has already been set up as loving his friends and mentors > very strongly, and really all that is left is whether or not he > will be able to love his enemies. Marianne wrote: > I'd like to add to this thought that Harry has already had at least > the tinglings of empathy for Snape. When he entered Snape's > memories in OoP he did not return gloating over Snape's > experiences. He may not have felt pity, but I think he certainly > emphathized with Snape's mistreatment, and felt bad about it. Rams: Thank you all for your well-thought out responses. I see now that Harry does have the capacity to feel love not only towards his friends, but also towards his enemies. I too think that the Harry-Snape dynamic will play a major role in the eventual destruction of Voldemort. Perhaps, Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore (yes, I think Snape's still on the side of 'good':) will be revealed to Voldemort, and Harry, realising his error, will jump in to save his life (thus repeating history), and Snape will do the same for Harry. Rams From EvilNuff at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 20:33:17 2005 From: EvilNuff at yahoo.com (evilnuff) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:33:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Emma, Twists, and HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136637 Pat wrote: > Considering that Emma is her favorite book, it`s full of > zigzagging shipping, and the twists in it are her target of > perfection, I firmly believe JKR put one or more Emma-like twists > in HBP, question is, where? ... > but a wealth of opportunities in the > shipping. I think this is the reason many readers think things > are "off" in HBP. ... > Further, as a H/Hr shipper, I've been wrestling with why I > didn't see R/Hr, and I'm afraid to say it, but still don't, and > I'll tell you why. Just because you did not and still do not see something does not mean it is not there. >From JKR's interview on mugglenet.com "ES: We thought it was clearer than ever that Harry and Ginny are an item and Ron and Hermione ? although we think you made it painfully obvious in the first five books ? JKR: [points to herself and whispers] So do I! ES: What was that? JKR: [More loudly] Well so do I! So do I!" She flat out admits that she planned and forshadowed both Harry/Ginny and Ron/Herm. relationships all along. Personally as I read the books these seemed like the obvious pairings, if others do not see them that's fine just don't delude yourself into thinking something does not exist just because you don't see it especially when the author flat out tells you it exists! :) -David From kirsten at kirstenmunson.com Fri Aug 5 20:45:42 2005 From: kirsten at kirstenmunson.com (klmtapir) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:45:42 -0000 Subject: My feelings In-Reply-To: <20050805153657.93340.qmail@web33813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136638 Virginia: > Now, I need your help, can please anybody help me to find the way > to see all of what happened with other perspective, with another > point of view that wont meke me feel as sad as I feel now?. I need > to be able to feel god about the HP world again, because it has > been a really good part of my life so far. Hi Virginia (and everyone -- this is my first post) -- I felt just the way you do after I finished HBP a couple weeks ago. I found myself moping around (to the point that my husband, who doesn't read HP and thus DOESN'T UNDERSTAND, was telling me, "You know, it isn't real!"). I was especially upset about Snape's role in the last chapters -- I'm a big-time Snape lover (I think Alan Rickman may have helped that along), and I just couldn't believe that, after all this time, he'd been Ever So Evil. So I came online and started looking for HP discussions that went a little deeper than "OMG I cant beleive Dumbeldor is rilly dead!!! I M so jellus of Ginny b/c Harry is my tru luv lol!" And I found Harry Potter for Grownups, and it's been awesome, if a bit overwhelming in sheer numbers of posts. I'd suggest going to this group's web site, back to the posts that started on 7/16 or a couple days afterward and just plowing through (or looking for subject lines that catch your eye). I found a lot of great theories about why Snape isn't truly evil (my main concern) and reasons why the last book doesn't necessarily need to be a depressing bloodbath ending with the world blowing up. So, in summary, stick around, read past posts and find solace. Kirsten From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 23:23:32 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:23:32 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shgupta83" wrote: > Pat: > > I noticed that whenever Slughorn praised Harry for something in > > > also that Slughorn credited it to Harry having inherited his > > mother's talents for potions. This means something along the lines > > that Lily and Snape knew the same kinds of tips and tricks. What > > do you think that means? > > > I was wondering if there was a possiblity that Snape asked > > Voldemort not to kill Lily went he went to kill Harry. > > vmonte: > > I've been thinking that the healing spell that Snape used on Draco > > might be something that Snape learned from Lily. Are we going to > > come across a Lily spell book next? > > > > SNIP> > Also, although I cant remember of the top of my head, when Snape > harrasses Harry through the books I can't recall him ever directly > insulting Lily. He has continually insulted James and Sirius to > Harry's face, but he never singled out Lily. Maybe this also shows > his soft spot for her. > > "shgupta83" >From an earlier post about Eileen Prince, I'm convinced that it was Snape's mama, the "real" Half Blood Prince, that wrote all the good stuff in the margins, giving Snape the edge in potions class. If that's what she was capable of, how much more did she pass onto him at home? I think its also probable that she was Tom Riddle's peer and they had potions class together. He was a hottie, she was, well, normal. Think he could sway her into helping him figure out how horcruxes work? And then what? Broke her heart? Made her go after the first guy that would take her? Maybe told her son about it every chance she got and died very bitter...or maybe she's in the WW nursing home and someday Snape's gonna make Voldie do right by his mama? Oh well, what do you expect folks, its Friday. In regard to Lily and Snape, I think its highly possible that Lily could have mended fences with Snape after James saved his life. She may have been the buffer between them and might have even been involved in helping to save Snape's life. Maybe Snape gave her some peeks at the old textbook to help her get her NEWTS to be a healer. It makes me gag, but she might have even flirted with him and called him her "half-blood Prince" Charming. Oh ugh and ugh. Cindy From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 21:32:47 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:32:47 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Emma, Twists, and HBP In-Reply-To: <1274918642.20050805124824@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136642 anasazi_pr wrote: > > Pat, I really love your analysis. But I think we are forgetting > > two things: > > 1) Unlike Emma, Harry Potter is a children's book > > 2) JK Rowling is no Jane Austen Susanne wrote: > True, but the main difference to me is that HP and Emma are > completely different genres. > > Emma's whole plot is all about relationships and romance, > while HP has this as a little side story (and I am so glad, > because I had to basically *make* myself finish Emma, since > romance alone is incredibly boring to me). Pat: You might be able to explain Jo's comments about Dorothy Sayers to me. All I saw was that it seemed to go around in a circle, and justify putting romance into HP books. What do you make of this, from the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview: "MA: How much fun did you have with the romance in this book? JKR: Oh, loads. Doesn't it show? MA: Yes. JKR: There's a theory - this applies to detective novels, and then Harry, which is not really a detective novel, but it feels like one sometimes ? that you should not have romantic intrigue in a detective book. Dorothy L. Sayers, who is queen of the genre said ? and then broke her own rule, but said ? that there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be useful to camouflage other people's motives. That's true; it is a very useful trick. I've used that on Percy and I've used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring. But having said that, I disagree inasmuch as mine are very character-driven books, and it's so important, therefore, that we see these characters fall in love, which is a necessary part of life. How did you feel about the romance?" Pat: Wow, if she thought it was important for us to see the characters fall in love, I think a high percentage of readers didn't. But I digress.. Susanne: > ...snip...And while JK likes Jane Austen's writing, she > never said she was trying to recreate her writing style. Pat: This quote doesn't make you think she shot for it?: "Boquet, Tim. "J.K. Rowling: The Wizard Behind Harry Potter," Reader's Digest, December 2000 JKR: 'The best twist ever in literature is in Jane Austen's Emma. To me she is the target of perfection at which we shoot in vain.'" Susanne: > Otherwise we should have seen Hermione make relationship > plans for anyone *but* Harry, but he was in fact the one she > helped to get together with two girls (Cho, and indirectly Ginny). Pat: Well, why wouldn't she change it a bit to be her own, especially if she didn't want us to see it coming? From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 5 23:27:47 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:27:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's predicament: The DADA jinx and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pansophy2000" wrote: > I disagree here...there was nothing about the vow that specified a > time line for Snape to take over should Draco fall into trouble. > > After all, nothing happened to Snape after Draco's two failed > attempts to kill DD with the goblet and necklace. Pippin: Snape was sworn " if it seems Draco will fail" "to carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform" " The goblet and the necklace come under the first clause but not the second, since these crude measures were not ordered by Voldemort. What Draco was ordered to do was to take place only when the cabinet had been repaired and the Death Eaters had gained access to the castle. As he tells Snape in ch 15, he has a plan and he's going to have help. And the help, it turns out, has very specific orders about what Draco is supposed to do. "No," said the fourth Death Eater sharply. He had a heavy, brutal-looking face. "We've got orders. Draco's got to do it. Now, Draco, and quickly." And then "We've got a problem, Snape," said the lumpy Amycus, whose eye and wand were fixed alike upon Dumbledore, "the boy doesn't seem able --" Those five words invoke the terms of the vow, because only then does it seem that Draco will fail to do what he has been ordered to do. Pippin From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 23:29:50 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:29:50 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Hoskins" wrote: > > Harry's father, was brave, clever and talented. He was also a > show-off who bullied Snape, who he disliked because he was > into the dark arts. Sure, bullying behaviour is nasty, and > James grew out of it (although Snape didn't!). I don't see > that JKR wrote James as a bully to belittle the father figure, > but to make it less easy for Harry to hero-worship his father. > Harry might have longed for his mother in her absence, > but it was James that he elevated to hero-status. Harry had > to come to realise, during OotP that James wasn't perfect, > but that he was still, after everything, a good person. Why was it necessary to deconstruct his father the hero? What possible good does it do for the story? So far it hasn't proven to be much of a major plot point other than to crush Harry. And if it was done to make him more of a 3-D figure then why hasn't the same been done for Lily. Why has Lily been kept pristine and lovely while James was torn down? And not just in the book. In the Mugglenet interview, she specifically mentions that she considers James's actions less brave than Lily's. Why was it necessary to qualify James's actions, what purpose does it serve except to say lessen him alongside his wife? Why couldn't they have been equally brave in different ways? Would that have changed the story? It is basically the only moment in the series where James gets to be great and she had to go and tear it down. While at the same time, perfect sainted Lily gets to remain perfect and sainted. It's disgusting in my view. > I have heard people suggest that JKR did not make any strong > father figures for her young charges at Hogwart (James > bullying, Arthur a drip (which I disagree with anyway), Tobias > Snape an abusive man, Mr Lovegood a loony etc), but I see > Arthur as a strong father, Mr longbottom as a very heroic > figure, Amos Diggory as a likable (if over-proud) father, > Hagrid's dad as a funny and loveable father. I can > continue if necassary; many strong and likeable fathers! Most of those are brief sketches of fathers. They aren't strong because almost none of them have promient roles. And of the ones that do, Arthur is drip (which I do think), Vernon is an ass, James is a bully, and Sirius was basically insane (still loveable though). > JKR has made all her characters very colourful, and very real. > And just like real people they all have their negative > aspects, men and women alike. Although JKR may have had > reason to feel negatively about some men, I do not feel > that she has let this intrude into her novels, and neither > do I feel that children reading these books will take home > negative views of either men or women. This is where we disagree. I don't know her so I can't speak to what she thinks, but if she does have issues with men, of course it'll intrude in her written work. Everyone's thoughts intrude on their work. The experience that anyone has fills their work. It would be impossible to exorcise. Writing is about putting your feelings on paper. Who you like, who you hate, what you think is good, what you think is evil, all those things inform what a person puts on paper, regardless of the story your telling. > When you compare JKR's portrayal of men, to C. S. Lewis' > protrayal of women, there is clearly no comparison! I > adored Lewis's books when I was a child, but as an adult > reading them to my three children I'm afraid that the > sexual stereotypes in his stories were uncomfortably > obvious; to the point where I stopped reading them to my > 8yr old son. Not a big fan of CS Lewis except for the Lion, the witch and the wardrobe and The Screwtape letters (best philosophy book ever), so I can't really say. I barely remember the plot to the chronicles of Narnia. >By comparison, JKR's work is almost entirely > free of bigotry of any nature, and children reading her > books are only going to become more open-minded due to > reading them, not less. I would disagree, but to each their own. phoenixgod2000, for whom gender issues are a pet peeve. You should see me rant on anti-male bias in education :) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 5 23:29:53 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:29:53 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136645 I know this is posted somewhere prior to HBP. It may have even been posted post-HBP. I have looked, really. I can't find it so, Calling all Brits.... Back when everyone was guessing about Spinner's End, someone came up with a real life location in an industrial area of England. Does anyone recall that? It was possibly an old, no longer used address or place name. I'm trying to get the connections between spin (as in spider) spin (as in thread) and spin (as in modern Muggle technology). I suddenly realised that growing up in a town known for it's textile mills, I assumed Spinner's End was located at a mill that did some sort of spinning. I was thinking textiles, but on another site, it's been suggested that the area would make metal line (rope). That's my way of not only seeing Spinner's End the chapter being about the Unbreakable Vow, but also as the address of Snape's childhood home. Any ideas out there? Quickly, come closer, don't let the elves hear, no on second thought, let's say this loudly enough that they can hear, but softly enough that they can pretend they didn't hear: GoF teaser trailor is playing (at some) showings of "March of the Penguins" Never mind that it will give you cold chills to hear Dumbledore say "The time it coming to choose what is right over what is easy." Potioncat From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 5 21:42:22 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:42:22 -0000 Subject: children's books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136646 "anasazi_pr" wrote: > Then we'll agree to disagree. strawberryshaunie wrote: > Agreed! :) Pat: Well, we've got one quote saying she doesn't mind being called a children's author, and at least 3 quotes in which she said she never had a target audience, and she wrote what she herself would like to read, as an adult, not as a child. I say she wouldn't have labeled it children or adult, but the publishers had to. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 23:46:09 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:46:09 -0000 Subject: The Nasty, Half-Blood (Crown) Undercover Prince of Greyness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" wrote: > ... I've been racking my subconscious for an answer to how it (the > books/series) could wind up quickly enough, and I think I found it: > it's Severus Snape. > > I hate Snape. ...edited... > > But I still think Snape is key. ... Voldemort is going to be > delighted to have Dumbledore dead and gone. ... NOW, and (Snape) > took the initiative ... Snape may report Dumbledore's condition > (damage to his hand from a curse, poisoned potion/deadwater) and > Voldemort, thinking, "Let's see, what could Dumbledore have been up > to that would cause those injuries?" may figure out the Professor > had been on a horcrux hunt. > > In any case..., Voldie is going to find out that somebody is, or has > been, after the ... horcruxes. If anything could scare Voldemort, > Iimagine it would be that. How many are there out there that need > checking up, maybe reinforcing? Voldie can't do it ... he'll send > Snape off to do something which will reveal information crucial to > the quest. Snape may even follow orders to a "T", ... > > Actually, I'm not at all sure of anything beyond what I am > utterly convinced is going to be canon: Snape's recent incredibly > loyal and helpful (in the Dark Lord's POV) act in killing Dumbledore > is going to set the stage for Snape gaining enough of Voldemort's > trust to find out much of what is so far unknown about the location > and nature of at least a fraction of the remaining horcruxes. ... It > is the ONLY thing that makes sense; quests are, above, all, time- > and page-consuming. There just isn't time for anything else that > makes logistic, literary, and JKR-type sense. In my humble opinion, ? of course. > > I welcome responses, although I will be no less convinced in their > absence. > > Sandy/msbeadsley bboyminn: I agree, although I hope I can say more than 'I agree' before I'm done. You raise an interesting point. When Snape killed Dumbledore, I didn't say to myself, 'no it didn't happen, he's not really dead'. We knew someone would die, and it was likely to be Dumbledore (although it seriously screws up my own fan fiction), so I accepted it. However, my first reaction was not the same as Harry, though I completely understand Harry's reaction. I suspected that Snape saw that Dumbledore was already dying and knew it was too late to save him. By the time they got the situation calm and stable enough for Dumbledore to get medical attention, it would already be too late. So he did what he had to do to make the situation work for him. If he fights the Death Eaters, then Snape's career as a spy is over, as well as eventually his life. In addition, in the time it takes, Dumbledore dies. If he kills Dumbledore, who is already dying, then Snape is near a god in Voldemort's eyes. If the Death Eater's win, they will probably declare that day Severus Snape Day - Hero of the Revolution. In a sense, Snape put Duty over Honor. The honorable thing to do would be to attempt to save his friend and protector, but that would have been very short sighted. If he had tried, he would have failed, and the Order would have lost it's best deep agent, and Voldemort and the DE's would have gone on killing and torturing, and maybe even on to victory. So, Snape did his duty. He certainly knows that as loved as Dumbledore was, he may certainly pay a very VERY high price for having killed him even if he was already dying. But Snape also knows, as I said, he will obtain near god-like status in the eyes of the enemy. Also, he was in a dangerous situation, the shortest and safest solution for Hogwart and Draco, was to kill an already dying Dumbledore, grab Draco, and run for it. The honorable thing is to fight and die like a hero, but dead honorable heroes never live to fight another day. Snape chose life, he chose to save Draco's life, he chose to get the DE's out of the castle as quickly as possible, he chose to save the lives of the students and the Order members by ending the conflict and getting the hell out of there. It may not be the most honorable thing, but it was certainly the most dutiful thing to do. So, as nasty as Snape is, as much as I hate him for his meanness to Harry, I think the book too strongly emphasized that Dumbledore trusted him. Ultimately, that apparent trust was the setup for the betrayal, but only in this book. In the greater scheme, it was a setup for Snape's redemption. Now on to the main point, there IS only one book left. Even if we skip the typical school and school related side stories, that's not much room to maneuver Harry into a position to retrieve the Horcruxes and destroy them. Don't forget that each Horcrux is protected by a series of enchantements (wards, spell, charms, curses, creatures), and the object itself may also be cursed. Even if Harry enlists the help of the Order in trying to track down the Horcruxes, he is still looking for a needle in a thousand haystacks. It's a near impossible task. Where do you even begin, and even if you can find a place to begin, how do you solve it in substantially less than a year? I seems a completely impossible task. So there must be an alternative. Either the Horcruxes aren't that important, or Harry is going to need inside help. In the past, pre-Horcrux, I have speculated all kinds of people helping Harry. Perhaps Dobby will make the coup de gr?ce; the least of the wizard world ultimately defeating the greatest of the wizard world. I've also considered Neville or some combination of Neville and Harry. Perhaps their combined AK curses are enough to truly kill Voldemort, I like the idea because I like Neville, but I really don't see the story going that way. Somehow there has to be short cut. Somehow Harry has to achieve his objective in a few short months. Finding the Horcruxes on his own could take years, even with a team of people working on the project. I think it's likely that Voldemort may gather the Horcruxes under his own personal protection; that simplfies things, Snape will somehow convey that information to Harry. So, I have to agree with you, I can't say whether Snape will ultimately live or die, I can't say that I like Snape as a person under any circumstances, but I think you are right, in the end, alive or dead, Snape is ultimately the key. Nodding my head. Steve/bboyminn From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 5 23:49:10 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:49:10 -0000 Subject: Harry not a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136648 shgupta83: In GOF, Wormtail told voldemort the task of > regenerating his body could be done much easier without having to > capture and kill Harry. However Voldemort insisted on using Harry. > Even in HBP, Voldemort orders his death eaters not to kill Harry. houyhnhnm: We don't really know what Voldemort ordered. We only have Snape's word for it. And while we may not all agree that Snape remained loyal to Dumbledore, I think that we can all agree that he is an accomplished liar. Certainly the Death Eaters showed no determination to save Harry for the boss during the fight at the Ministry. Voldemort's insistance on using Harry for the regeneration spell had to do with the magic associated with Harry's blood, didn't it? From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 23:59:58 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:59:58 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > >> I'm equally puzzled by the idea that Harry's capacity to love exceeds > Dumbledore's. And I'm not in the least persuaded by the idea that > Harry could be an accidental Horcrux. As numerous posters have pointed > out (only to be ignored), a Horcrux is a deliberately chosen object > (preferably durable, valuable, and powerfully magical) into which a > dark wizard pours part of his soul through complex Dark magic that > involves much more than the soul-splitting caused by committing > murder. Murder is common in the WW. Horcruxes are not. Nor would > voldemort have wished the child he was trying to kill, his potential > rival, to be a Horcrux. He wanted Harry dead. Period. > > What I don't think has been pointed out, however (and of course I > haven't read all 12 million posts), is that Harry's scar was not > caused by anything entering his body. The AK would have entered him as > it did his mother and father and every other AK victim, but thanks to > the ancient magic activated by Lily's sacrifice (which I hope was more > complex than it appears so far), the Avada Kedavra Curse burst OUT of > him. That's what caused the scar, which is still an open wound when > baby Harry is placed on the Dursleys' doorstep. The rebounding curse > hits Voldemort, ripping his soul from his body, with a resulting > explosion that destroys the house. Voldemort--and this is a crucial > point--retains what remains of his soul or he could not have survived > the encounter. Good point Carol, about the AK NOT entering Harry. It apparently hit him, pierced the skin leaving the scar and then rebounded on Voldemort. Since LV had already made horcruxes, he couldn't officially "die", he became what has been described as Vapor!Mort which may or may not be an adequate term anymore (OneSeventhSoul! Mort maybe? Or Gottadestroytheothersfirstsuckas!Mort). Dumbledore called his existance "spectral." Ghostly, but with powers. I agree, highly unlikely an accidental horcrux was made of Harry since Horcrux making seems so complex--the wizard would have to be in complete control. pg 498 HBP AE "But how do you do it?" "By an act of evil--the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage. He would encase the torn portion--" "Encase? But how--" "There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn. pg 499 "Well, Harry," said Dumbledore, "I am sure you understood the signifcance of what we just heard. A the same age you are now, give or take a few months, Tom Riddle was doing all he could to find out how to make himself immortal." Enter Eilene Prince? And a bit later, Grindlewald (most likely Dumbledore had to destroy HIS one horcrux to finally defeat him). Cindy From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Aug 6 00:01:07 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: parental roles in HP books - Molly (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c59a19$f334c970$a33b79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 136650 > > >>Juli: > > Destruction? What animal did they kill at age 7? > > > > Betsy Hp: > Ron's puffskein. I believe this happened when Ron was five, but I > could be mistaken. (I can find the revelent quote in FB&WTFT, but > not in HBP where I believe more details are given.) Fred apparently > used Ron's puffskein for bludger practice. Which means, > effectively, that Fred hit a small furry animal with a cricket bat > until it was dead. Not very pleasant, IMO. > Sherry now: i don't remember this at all, but if it happened ... if Ron was five, the twins were seven. My brother accidentally killed my canary when he was around that age, six or seven, I think. I doubt that the twins purposely set out to kill Ron's pet. They were thoughtless and irresponsible, but then, what seven year old kid isn't? Sherry From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Aug 6 00:03:26 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:03:26 -0000 Subject: anti Weasleys under Imperius Curse? was parental roles in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Betsy Hp: > > Speaking as someone who loaths Molly Weasley and her methods of > > mothering, I think her children are a *perfect* example of how > > she's *not* a good mother. > > > >>Juli: > > Are you joking? or it it sirious? > > > > Betsy Hp: > I'm serious. Susan says: Betsy, I am very worried about you. I think Lucius Malfoy has put you under the Imperius Curse (he hates those blood traitors)..or wait! maybe it's Delores Umbridge! She'd love to promote Percy and destroy Arthur, and she surely has a great big grudge against Fred and George for their wonderful resistance to her reign of Hogwarts tyranny! Betsy: Molly bugs the heck out of me. And I don't see the > Weasleys as an "ideal family". I've seen Norman Rockwell pictures. > The Weasleys ain't it. snip........> > Percy, more overtly (I think because Percy, of all the Weasley > children, is excruciatingly honest, often to his own detriment), > full out left his family behind. ***** > >> > Betsy Hp: > If Percy's angry at Molly for anything, I imagine it's because he > followed her instructions exactly and it led him to a childhood of > being mocked and ganged up on by the twins, and an adulthood of > being mocked and condecedended to by his father (from Percy's POV > anyway). Molly didn't spoil Percy. She used him as a weapon > against the twins. Unfortunately, Percy wasn't strong enough for > the task she set him up for, and she lost him over it. ???????? Huh? Surely, Molly would like Fred and George to be more like Percy, but she also references Bill and Charley as role models for Ron.... > > Ron, quite wisely, chose not to follow Percy's path. And though > he's certainly not a favorite of the twins, by following their lead > instead of his mother's he was never attacked as viciously by the > twins as Percy was (though Ron was definitely attacked). ????? Percy was terribly, terribly treated by Fred and George??? Are you kidding???? I think Percy is judgmental, self-important, ambitious, pompous and a lickspittle? More importantly, he's ready to sacrifice his parents to his own career, and be alienated from his family? Do you think it's nice to taunt his father about not making money? Lots of folks choose to do something that think is valuable that is not terribly lucrative... Percy is the one who attacks Arthur for sticking with DD and believing HARRY...Do you remember Fred and George insisting that Percy join them at the feast -- because Christmas is a time for family? Percy is not a totally evil character, of course, but if ANYone in the family has done terrible things it's Percy. Let's remember his letter to Ron in the order of the Phoenix...how he suggests that Harry is violent and unbalanced, how he says that Delores Umbridge is a "delightful woman?"!!!!?????@#$%^ Look at his behavior at Harry's trial -- how he laughs at Fudge's cruel comments, and ignores his father AND Harry... I think Fred and George's pricking of Percy's pomposity is hilarious. I love gadflies. Putting little flags on the ministry of car that say HB.... asking if Crouch has stopped calling Percy Weatherby (remember that disgustingly sycophantic way he was was bowing so low he was crouching over? Putting dragon dung in his inbox? I love their swamp. I love Fred and George organizing resistance to Delores Umbridge. I love how they cooperate with Harry to buy Ron new dress robes. They are absolutely hilarious.... Molly > certainly punished Ron for choosing the twins over her. He became > her invisible son. Always getting the crappiest of the Weasley > sweaters, sent to a formal in ridiculous dress robes that Molly > doesn't even *attempt* to alter. Damn her! She has six kids and she doesn't have time to alter dress robes. Probably Arthur's shirts have ring around the collar, too! > > > >>Betsy Hp: > > >Ginny is an accomplished liar and has a rather cruel temper when > > >she's pushed. > So now kids who lie to their parents are bad? I guess everyone on this list will have to consign their souls to hell. > > Betsy Hp: > Oh sure, I lied to my mom. But she saw right through it. Ginny is > quite good at it. So it's her COMPETENCE at lying that you object to, not the lying itself..it's okay to be a CLUMSY liar? But honestly, it's her cruelty snip Though Percy definitely came > in for some underhanded hits. Ginny lets slip to the twins that he > has a girlfriend in PS/SS. And frankly, her "oh dear, don't tease > him, please" rang a bit false to me. How long has she been living > with the twins again? Susan says: I really object to your stating your version of the books as fact. Ginny says "don't tease him, please". I saw that as sincere, and I'm willing to give Ginny a break given that she was just possessed by LV... but you have decided (based on no evidence that I can see), that it was false, therefore it is "cruel". Could all the people who teased their siblings about girlfriends and boyfriends raise their hands? Cruel, cruel... > > SNIP And I think her flaws have come about because the Weasley > family is not perfect and not ideal. Susan says: Well of course no family is perfect. All people have flaws. Good people make mistakes. No individual is perfect. So Ginny has flaws because of her parents/family, in your opinion? None of her good points are because of her parents/family? Personally, I think Molly and Arthur are great parents, and it's a great, loving, doing the best they can family.....They failed with Percy and I feel sorry for them. But they're doing well with the other kids....and of course parental influence is one factor, but not the overriding factor in a person's development. At some point, kids make their own choices. SNIP > > >>Betsy Hp: > > >As to Molly's relationship with Arthur, their marriage doesn't > > seem all that great, IMO. > > > > > >>Juli: > > what's wrong with their relationship? So Molly is the 'boss', she > > sets the rules, it doesn't seem wrong. > > Betsy Hp: > Actually, I think that's *exactly* what's wrong with the Weasley > family as a whole. Molly is too judgmental and small-minded to be > the boss. Obviously Arthur hates it, that's why he's hardly ever > home. Susan: Again, I don't think Arthur hates Molly or his home or his family. It's not obvious to me. You state your opinion as fact and go from there. Arthur is home quite a bit for someone who has a very demanding job. Whenever there's a crisis at Hogwarts, he's immediately there. How loved he is is "obvious" when he's in the hospital and is visited by Molly and the children. > > > >>Julie: > > Of course he's working all day, he's got a family to support, I > > would complain if he was letting his kids starve! > > snip> > Betsy Hp: > One that Molly despises, unfortunately, and so one he's not able to > include any of his family members in. It may have done his kids > some good if they were included in some of his tinkering. (Though I > sometimes get the feeling that the Weasely children don't respect > their father all that much.) Susan says: Again, I think the Weasley children love and respect their father (with the exception of Percy) They tease him....but that's the sign of a healthy child/parent relationship...I do not agree with your feeling. > > >>Julie: > > He disciplines Fred and George, but their personality is like that > > he can't change it, they are pranksters, that's who they are. > > Betsy Hp: > The twins are bit darker than the average prankster. Too many of > their victims end up in the hospital wing, IMO. (Christ, Ron may > have ended up raping Romilda Vane if Harry hadn't been quick on his > feet there, and all thanks to his brothers.) Susan says: So you're blaming Fred and George because ROMILDA VANE gave Harry a love potion and Ron ended up getting it accidentally? (This is why I think you're under the Imperius Curse) It was ROMILDA who was trying to coerce Harry into asking her to the party.... Besides...a love potion doesn't necessariy lead to rape..it leads to obsessive love and attraction...rape is a choice that is made, not out of sexual attraction or love.....it's a decision to use sex to humiliate and degrade another person. There is no evidence that Ron would have gone from being entranced with Romilda into forcing her into sex.... > > > > Betsy Hp: > Are they friends? What Arthur cares deeply about Molly thinks as so > much nonsense. It was fairly obvious, IMO, through Molly's talk > with Harry when he first arrived at the Burrow that Arthur wasn't > all that thrilled with his promotion. But Molly *loves* it. And > when they were listening to the Christmas music it seemed fairly > obvious, again IMO, that Arthur was merely gritting his teeth with > the rest of the family. He didn't seem all that interested in the > walk down memory lane that Molly was taking. > > I don't think Arthur despises Molly, or anything, but I don't think > their marriage is all that great. I think Arthur is being noble. > (Actually I think they may well mirror the Bennetts from > Austen's "Pride & Prejudice") > > > >>Juli: > > Why is it wrong to let the kids know there isn't a lot of money? > > Betsy Hp: > It's not. But is it normal to show your kids (and their friends!) > the bank balance? That scene just bothered me. Susan says: Betsy, it's okay for you to be bothered by it. You're entitled to your own personal issues about money. My parents thought it shameful to discuss money in front of me, too. But I have found out that sharing a bank account balance with kids, talking with them about being thrifty, earning money, saving money. etc. is often a good option, and one many families embrace. This does not make Molly abnormal, or worse a bad mother..(as you said in your first post about this) Susan McGee If you'd like to join Harry Potter for Grownups over 50, please email me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Aug 6 00:05:28 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:05:28 -0000 Subject: anti Weasleys under Imperius Curse? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136652 A Friend has given me permission to post her thoughts about the Weasleys I love the entire W Weasley clan, and especially Molly and Arthur. I wish I'd had a family like that. I've always been surprised at the people who think Arthur is brow beaten. It's always seemed to me that he does exactly what he wants, when he thinks it's the right thing to do. i think he's got a mild laid back personality, as do I, and people like us can love loud boisterous people, not want to raise their ire--as in GOF over the toffee and Dudley--and yet not allow ourselves to be ordered around and "beaten into submission" just because. We have a different kind of strength and priorities. i've always thought Arthur and Molly have a very strong relationship, with mutual respect and affection. They agree, disagree, compromise with each other, and so obviously love each other. I have dear friends who lead a somewhat similar life, which perhaps is why I've never even questioned the traditional gender roles, till I started reading such things on other boards. My friend chooses to work inside the home. This was her desire from day one, not something imposed on her by her husband. And I don't know who works harder. They have four kids, ranging in age from 5 to 15, plus her mom lives in the home, and I even did for a while. My friend manages all household duties, except the ones she thinks her husband and kids should do or she can't do. She handles the budget, all shopping, cleaning--though now she has professional people who come in twice a month to do major stuff--shuttles the kids all over to various activities and even home schools all four of them. She is strong willed with a temper, yells when the kids drive her nuts, and is the main disciplinarian. The kids greatest fear would be something like the twins' when Hermione threatens to tell their mother. Yet, those kids, even the 15 year old boy, still rush to her when she comes home, still snuggle around her to watch TV, still hug and kiss her and love her dearly. The husband seems mild and laid back, superficially, and perhaps unkind people who don't know them well would think he lets her rule him, but that is so not true. They make joint decisions in raising the kids, spending money and anything else that is important. They are truly a team in the marriage and in their roles as parents, and it shows in the ways the kids are happy, wild, well behaved and loving. so, I'm with you about the Weasleys. And if we needed more proof, wasn't 'Molly Wobbles" an example of the intimacy between them? I've only ever disliked Molly once, and that was over Sirius in OOTP. I love Sirius, and i so wanted Harry to be able to have him as his guardian, as his parents had intended. I resented, on Sirius' behalf, Molly's harsh unkind words in OOTP, even though I know her heart was in the right place. That doesn't mean I suddenly disliked her, just didn't like what she did. Yet she was under such great stress and worried all the time. Her methods may have been wrong, but her motives were right. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 00:10:49 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:10:49 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136653 "potioncat" wrote: > Back when everyone was guessing about Spinner's End, someone came up > with a real life location in an industrial area of England. Does > anyone recall that? It was possibly an old, no longer used address or > place name. > Hi Potioncat, it might have been me, I know I wrote about the possible location of Spinner's End in answer to a post about Hagrid taking baby Harry to Snape's house before going to the Dursley's. Anyway, the description of the type of houses and the mill chimney are classic north of England. Manchester (in the then county of Lancaster) was the centre of the cotton milling industry and was the cradle of the industrial revolution. Leeds was the centre of the wool industry. The Spinning Jenny (a mechanised loom) was invented in the mid to late 18th Century and caused riots, as before that time, people had spun cloth in their homes. But it's invention (plus steam technology) brought about the building of mills to process both wool and cotton. This originated in the slave trade to the West Indies and Southern United States in the 17th/18th century. As you know, cotton was grown, which was then shipped back to England and arrived in the port of Liverpool. It was then taken up the Manchester Ship Canal and processed in and around the city. The wool industry was based on the other side of the range of hills that runs up the centre of England (The Pennines) The centre was Leeds, but also towns like Halifax, Huddersfield and Wakefield (in the county of Yorkshire). The houses which were built for the mill workers all across the north of England were small and terraced (meaning a row of houses where the side walls are shared). In fact, in Yorkshire especially, a great many back to back houses were built. Imagine two rows of small terraced houses, put them back to back, such that each house has neighbours on both side walls and the back wall, with two other neighbours at the diagonals. These houses were really quite small, of two or possibly three stories in height, with two rooms on each floor. The description of Snape's house and the area which the sisters walk through, is very much an area of either terraced or back to back housing. In the 1960's these houses were often considered to be slums, and many of them were demolished. Nowdays, they have had bathrooms fitted and are the cheapest type of housing you can buy. I've lived in one, and as long as the neighbours aren't noisy, they're great - really warm! I was really interested to find out about Snape's house. It filled in a great deal for me. It means a very working class background for Snape. I could well imagine that this was his parents house, although the obvious dereliction of the area spells more of ex-mining village. There are still plenty of deserted villages in Yorkshire after Margaret Thatcher decimated the coal industry. But Diggers End, doesn't have quite the same ring does it? Not only would it be likely that Snape came from relative poverty, but he would have had a northern accent to boot. Now James and Sirius were most definitely of the middle classes, as is the Weasley family. Class sensitivity was greater 25 years ago when Snape was at school, than it is now, and it still does exist in England. So add that to the mix and you have a Snape with a class resentment chip on his shoulder and some middle class 'rich' boys who probably do think that they are a cut above our young working class, uncouth, northern lad, Snape. So many assumptions would be in the mix. Snape would feel that he was an outsider, and if he wanted to make it big, he would have to break through the prejudices and class barriers. He would resent the ease and confidence of the Marauders. I loved finding out what sort of house Sanpe lived in. I hadn't really though about his background much, but so much of the rivalry between Snape and Marauders fell into place for me. Hope this helps, Saraquel From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 00:36:08 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:36:08 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: We learn in the new book that a person's Patronus can change if they have suffered a deep emotional shock, like watching your Headmaster be murdered by a teacher. I'll bet Harry will develop a new Patronus and I'll bet it's a Phoenix. --SNIP-- ----- I simply don't buy the Patronus-change-thing. First of all - if a Patronus changes that easy (change of emotions) how on earth would it be possible for Order-members to keep up with which Patronus belongs to who? After all - it is their way of communicating with each other - they have to know what each other's Patronus looks like. Second - I still read Snape's comment to Tonks about her *new* Patronus as sarcastic / mocking - and no, not mocking because of her feelings but mocking as in "I know who you really are!" Inge From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 00:40:54 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:40:54 -0000 Subject: Snape as 'One' of them in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136655 "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." Chys: Ok, this doesn't make that much sense but I gotta mention it. (And there are a 1000 new posts so sorry if someone else did too.) This thing about Snape being the one mentioned in the prophecy, well, maybe there's something to it, afterall. There's a pause every so often in the telling of the prophecy so unless it's a tinkered memory like Slughorn had, then this might be something. I wondered if we're supposed to read between the lines? I'm not denying it's Harry, Harry is in there most definitly as it's not Neville, and JKR said it wasn't. I think Harry and Snape are going to have to work together, even if not in person, even if Snape is truly ESE, to defeat Voldemort. It's in both of their best interests to do so, I think that's why Snape didn't caputure/kill Harry when he had a chance. I've been looking at other posts here and there but none I have seen has been able to mention (To my opinion of a good plausible explanation) The 'born to those thrice defying' part (unless it has something to do with Snape's mom that we didn't know of.) So I wonder if it is not literal but something of, 'this possibility, through this person, is born at this time, to these people, who as a collective have thrice defied the dark lord?' (Say to DD, Lily and James as a collective, having had Snape turn to them instead of staying with LV after having heard the prophecy and gone to DD with the knowledge of LV's decision?) I know, crazy thought, but it could have been. And maybe they (Harry/Snape) both are the person 'the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord' but at separate times? Maybe this title is passed on to someone else, depending upon what choices people make and how that affects things. I dunno. Having marked one as an equal, well, Harry's scar is not nescessarily marking one as an equal aside from the fact when he went there to kill the boy he thought of him as a threat. The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches. (Well, that could have been literally at that moment, behind the door as well.) Snape having the mark could be an equal in thought, in opinion, in that this one has sided with him in this endeavour, his plot to overtake the wizarding world, and that could be what it refers to. Others have mentioned it's servitude but to what extent? LV has no power over people unless they decide to serve him. Mark or no mark, it can't change the way you think, so I think it's a tattoo of your ideals and a proclomation of your siding with the dark. (Even if it could just be a cover story, unless he really is ESE, in which case he's clearly stating his alignment.) The power that the dark lord knows not, has already been explained for Harry and Snape too, love- to an extent, and occlumency to another. Either must die at the hand of the other. Well, this could be anything between the three of them, couldn't it? I'm not going too into detail with this because it's all in opinion and interpretation. Maybe it's between Snape and Harry for which of them can kill LV? That was my first thought along this idea. Or maybe it's that Snape much choose which of them to side with, and which to kill? (Snape being the other, and either being both Harry and LV?) *gah* Too much to go into. I do wonder if it couldn't be interpreted that they - both - at different times, had the power to vanquish the dark lord, either through circumstances being ideal at the time, or for the qualifications of the prophecy having been fulfilled. *sigh* Then again, my theory would make more sense if the prophecy were worded like this instead: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... born to those who thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." Any thoughts? Chys From Nanagose at aol.com Sat Aug 6 00:46:34 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:46:34 -0000 Subject: Sectumsempra - have we seen it already? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136656 Holly: > Basically I'm just wondering if we haven't seen Sectumsempra > before... > . the cannon is being prepared but I would like to explain that this > is partly in response to a number of posts asking how Harry was able > to cast the spell correctly the first time when he didn't know the > correct "swish and flick" movement as well as the word Christina: I agree that we've seen Sectumsempra before, but I think it's a bit earlier in OotP (pg 647, Am. Ed.) But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. (end quote) I don't think that there was a specific "swish and flick" motion associated with this spell. I think it's more like a sword-- the way you move your wand when you say the spell determines how the spell with cut through its victim. Holly: > Cannon (from UK childrens editions): > > OOTP Bottom of Pg 698 > "Silencio" cried Hermione and the man's voice was extinguished. He > continuied to mouth through the hole in his mask, but no sound came > out. He was thrust aside by his fellow death eater (...) "Well done > Ha--" But the death eater Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden > slashing movement with his wand; a streak of what looked like purple > flame passed across Hermione's chest. She gave a tiny "Oh!" as though > of surprise and crumpled on to the floor, where she lay motionless" Christina: I have gone through the books again and again and as far as I know, this is the first and only mention of any spell producing purple light (curious, isn't it?). Even if Snape did use Sectumsempra on James (like I suggested above), we aren't told the color of the flash of light (which could have very well been purple, lending some evidence to what you're saying about Hermione's injuries). Holly: > HBP: > Very top of Pg489 > "SECTUMSEMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly. > Blood spurted from Malfoy's face and chest as though he had been > slashed with an invisable sword" > > Ok so why am I thinking anything here, a number of things: > > Both are slashing/cutting injuries for a start even though one is > chest only and one is face and chest but this can be explained > because Dolohov made a (i.e. ONE) "slashing movement", he slashed > across Hermione's chest. Harry "waved his wand wildly" hence he had > the correct motion (the "swish and flick") and got not only Malfoy's > chest but face as well. Christina: I sort of agree. Like I said above, I don't think there was a specific wand movement for the spell (citing the same passage you did). Malfoy got slashed throughout his chest *and* face because Harry was "wildly" waving his wand. I think of it as the difference between a single thrust of a sword and somebody wildly and blinding thrashing a sword about--obviously, the second scenerio will do much more damage. > I do not > remember any talk of her having an open wound Christina: I can't find anything about her having an open wound either, which doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't, but I would think Harry would have taken notice if Hermione was bleeding. If she had been bleeding (from somewhere as serious as her chest), I think Harry or Neville would have tried to do something to stop the bleeding. Also.... (OotP, Am. Ed., page 793) "Whaddid he do to her?" said Neville, crawling out from under the desk again to kneel at her other side, blood streaming from his rapidly swelling nose. (end quote) First of all, it's noted that Neville is bleeding (a fact that's actually mentioned a few times). Also, I don't think Neville would have asked what the DE had done to Hermione if the spell had been Sectumsempra (I think the blood would essentially have answered his question). However, like you said, if the power of the spell was diminished by the DE's lack of a voice, maybe it really was Sectumsempra and just didn't break her skin? Christina Who really, really wants to know what the purple-flashed spell was From hermystheories at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 22:18:31 2005 From: hermystheories at gmail.com (Mrs. Hermione Snape) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:18:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Life debt In-Reply-To: <2510053541.20050804221744@web.de> References: <1229426775.20050804181518@web.de> <2510053541.20050804221744@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136657 Caro wrote: > Sorry, I have forgotten where I heard of this (was several year ago), > but I am very sure that this does/did exist (even forgot about the > region and the time of the culture). Does anybody else have a clue > about this? Mrs. HS: In the movie "Holes" (haven't read the book yet-sorry) there is some reference to a life debt. The boy who is sent away to camp constantly has bad luck, as does his whole family, because one of his ancestors fell through on a contract/promise. When he saves his friend's life, who happens to be a decendant of the person who was crossed by the main character's family, the curse is lifted. I wish I remembered more details, but I haven't seen it in about two years. Anyway, the point is, these "debts" can continue for generations. If Snape was really concerned for his life-debt to James, and was trying to save Harry to fulfill it, I'd imagine that this is the case here. The only thing I can't understand is what would happen if an entire family dissapeared. I doubt Peter Pettigrew has any decendants to save Harry's life. --Mrs. HS From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 01:09:38 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:09:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136658 Pat wrote: "Your (Susan's) post includes reasons to believe Ginny is using Love Potion Perfume on Harry." (snip) "There is the possibility that the perfume Ron gave Hermione was from the twins - Ron's nonchalant reaction to Hermione's comment goes better with that than if he went out and bought it from a shop. And what happened to that perfume? Is Hermione wearing it? We didn't think she would, but we didn't think she'd play Quidditch, either. Did she pass it off to Ginny, who recognized what it was from seeing the twins stock at the Burrow?" Del replies: That's an interesting theory. However, I'm not sure that Ginny is necessarily using the Perfume *on purpose*. Love Potion Perfume could explain Ginny's "sudden" rise in popularity among boys. We know that she had to accept Neville's invitation to the Yule Ball in GoF, because no other 4th-year or above had invited her yet. So obviously she wasn't *that* popular yet. Then she gets a boyfriend at the beginning of OoP. And then at the beginning of HBP, we get that discussion in the Slytherin train compartment about how Ginny is so popular with boys, and even Blaise, who is hard to please, apparently is attracted to her. Could Love Potion Perfume have something to do with that? If so, how and when did she start using it, and does she do it on purpose? Pat posited that maybe Ginny got the Love Potion Perfume from Hermione, the gift Ron gave her for Christmas. It's a tempting idea, but it doesn't fit the timeline. My personal guess is Ginny's birthday, August 11. I read in the Lexicon that "according to Hermione, Ginny "gave up" on Harry sometime during her third year." That would be sometime during GoF. We also know that Hermione told her to try and go after other guys, probably sometime during GoF too. Then at the end of GoF/beginning of OoP, Hermione goes to live at 12GP with the Weasleys. Is it possible that the Twins, with their Extendable Ears, overheard Ginny and Hermione discussing boys, and Hermione telling Ginny to go after boys other than Harry? Knowing the Twins, they might have decided to "help" their little sister, to turn her into some kind of mild Veela. Maybe they offered her some Love Perfume for her birthday? Without telling her what it was, of course... But, some of you will undoubtedly say, the Twins were pretty upset about the reports that Ginny had half-a-dozen boys pining after her, in HBP, and they flatly told her that she couldn't buy any of their Love Potions. I haven't forgotten about that. But I'm wondering if maybe the Twins felt a little scared of just how well the Love Perfume seemed to be working. Turning Ginny into a Veela was a fun *idea*, but the realisation that their baby sister was *actually* going out with boys might have left them with an unpleasant taste in the mouth (not that it should, but hey, they *are* big brothers, and she *is* their baby sister ;-) Now, of course, I am NOT trying to say that Ginny can't be attractive and popular on her own. I truly believe she can be. And I also know that girls have in-built "Love Attractors" that do tend to become much more prominent during their early-middle teens. But it could be that the Love Perfume helped a bit. Maybe it simply gave her the leg up she needed to really bloom, to come into her own. Some kind of virtuous (pun intended) cycle: boys start noticing Ginny, so she gets more confident, so they notice her more, etc... Though of course some could argue that with everything we know about Potions and mind-controlling spells, even Ginny's personality (well, *anybody*'s personality) could have been altered by some Potion or spell. But that would be contrary to JKR saying that Ginny IS the perfect match for Harry. If Ginny is not herself, she can't be good for Harry, not yet anyway. Well, anyway, it's just a theory :-) And not even mine originally :-D Send the rotten tomatoes to Pat, OK ;-) ? Del From wrexx at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 22:56:05 2005 From: wrexx at hotmail.com (wrexx1) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:56:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's wounded hand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136659 Any speculation as to why DD, with his vast magical skill and the super healing powers of a phoenix nearby, left his burned hand in that condition? Wrexx From ngermany at excite.com Sat Aug 6 00:34:17 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:34:17 -0000 Subject: Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136660 Del replies: > You said so yourself: you use it to *stop* a *criminal*. That's not > AT ALL comparable with the Love Potions, whose purpose is to > *forcefully induce* a specific behaviour in an *innocent and often > unaware victim*. What's the difference between "stopping a criminal" using force and "inducing romantic feelings" in the person I've promised to remain monogamous with by using a potion? Both serve my better interests. Both are without consent to the "victim". The only difference I see is that the former keeps me alive and healthy while the other keeps me healthy and feeling alive. Elizabeth From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 00:34:25 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:34:25 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136661 lealess: > I think he took the vow for two reasons: > 1) a calculated gamble to find out more information about Draco's > task, as part of his job as a spy; > 2) genuine curiosity as part of his nature (trailing the Marauders, > for example, if that is true, and willingness to explore beyond > what the book says). Ceridwen: Thinking about it all, it ran through my mind that Snape never knew what he was supposed to do, until the vow kicked in when he was informed that Draco couldn't do it. I'm wondering, did Ron get it (slightly) wrong, that the vow doesn't kill you if you refuse to do it, but that it *forces* you to do it? After all, Ron was very young when the twins tried to pull it on him, he may have misunderstood, or Arthur could have over-stressed the danger in taking such a vow ("Something like that could kill you, Ron"). Ceridwen. From celticfury22 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 01:13:30 2005 From: celticfury22 at aol.com (celticfury22 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:13:30 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's wounded hand Message-ID: <20d.6703ec0.302568ba@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136662 Hi ! I'm new here. It's my theory that Dumbledore was dying from that injury. Things could be done to slow down the process, but it could not be healed. --celticfury From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 01:28:07 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:28:07 -0000 Subject: Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136663 Sorry Elves, 4th post (if I counted well), but I couldn't let that one pass. Elizabeth wrote: "What's the difference between "stopping a criminal" using force and "inducing romantic feelings" in the person I've promised to remain monogamous with by using a potion? Both serve my better interests. Both are without consent to the "victim". " Del replies: Difference number 1: stopping a criminal who has entered your home without your consent is called self-defense. Taking away someone's free agency to force them to feel and act in a specific way is an offense. Example: injuring someone who is trying to rape you is self-defense. It's the other person who is going to go to jail, not you. Inversely, having sex with someone to whom you gave a rape drug is an offense. You are the one who is going to go to jail, even if you have a video showing the other person begging you and pulling your clothes off. Difference number 2: when someone enters your home without your consent, they automatically put themselves at risk of your defending yourself with any means necessary. In short, they *do* give their consent to being hurt or even killed. But when someone enters into a romantic relationship with someone else, they do *not* give their automatic consent to being fed rape drugs. In short: in the first case, you're the VICTIM. In the second case you're the OFFENDER. Del From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 01:39:43 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:39:43 -0000 Subject: Did Harry really became unfrozen because DD died? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiramertip" wrote: > If the spells of a wizard stop working when they die (Harry > unfreezing)... will the protection that DD casted on the Dursley's > house for Harry still wok next summer? Ceridwen: I'm wondering if certain types of spells stop when the caster is dead (it would be very inconvenient for someone to remain frozen for the rest of their lives if the caster dies, as Harry was frozen)? Or, if perhaps certain things are done to make a charm or spell last longer than the life of the caster? Or, if charms and wards last while spells have a natural lifespan? None of the answers to these things have been clear to me just reading through the books. Ceridwen. From ongj87 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 02:09:26 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:09:26 -0000 Subject: Importance of Death in Horcrux Making Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136665 I'm a little confused on one part. Who says that the murder has to be significant to make a horcrux? Don't we know that Frank Bryce was the death that led to Voldemort making Nagini as horcrux? And I'm certain that Frank Bryce wasn't at all significant to Voldemort, he was just another muggle to him. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. - ongj87 From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 02:18:42 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:18:42 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devika" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" > > wrote: > I'll bet Harry will develop a new Patronus > and I'll bet it's a Phoenix. That makes me wonder about something else, what will happen to Fawkes? I don't think a Phoenix can be property so Dumbledore couldn't give him to Harry in his Will, but the bird may chose to live with Harry, he seems to like him and Voldemort has Nagini. I ran across an old 2001 interview that gives some support to > > this idea: > > > > JKR: "He [Harry] might get a different pet at some point but I'm > > saying no more at this moment." > > Allie: Ever since I read that quote, I have thought that Harry would end up with Fawkes. I really like that Patronus idea. "And to his shock, as his new silver Phoenix Patronus flew away, another Phoenix just as beautiful flew toward him, this one (gold? red? what the heck color was Fawkes again?) instead of silver." :) From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 02:24:16 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of James (was: Re: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050806022416.73939.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136667 phoenixgod2000 wrote: Why was it necessary to deconstruct his father the hero? What possible good does it do for the story? And if it was done to make him more of a 3-D figure then why hasn't the same been done for Lily. Why has Lily been kept pristine and lovely while James was torn down? And not just in the book. In the Mugglenet interview, she specifically mentions that she considers James's actions less brave than Lily's. Why was it necessary to qualify James's actions, what purpose does it serve except to say lessen him alongside his wife? Why couldn't they have been equally brave in different ways? Would that have changed the story? It is basically the only moment in the series where James gets to be great and she had to go and tear it down. While at the same time, perfect sainted Lily gets to remain perfect and sainted. Juli: I'm so glad to read your post Phoenixgod. I love James, I think he was an excelent person, he was loving, caring, responsible... But who cares how he was like at 16? 15-16 is a terrible age, for everyone, boys and girls are annoying, and so was James, but he grew up, in a year or two after the "prank", he was head boy (Hogwarts ultimate honor), he was dating a very popular girl... 4 years after leaving Hogwarts he was a member of the OoP, he was very closed to Dumbledore, he had been able to escape from Voldemort. He was awesome!! James rocks!! Only Snape seems to think that James continued to act as a teenager forever, other people who knew James say he was great, so I'm gonna say he was Great!! And why is Lily the only heroe? I know she stood in front of Harry, and therefore saved his life and gave him a longstanding protection. But James also acted heroically that night: He told Lily to take Harry and run while he took care of Voldemort, he put his wife and son's welfare before his own. And why is James a bully? as far as we know, Snape was no poor defenseless kid, he was as good (or even better) than James, we've only seen ONE memory, in which Snape is the "victim", I wonder how many times was James the victim? They cursed each other, that's what they did, one day Severus was "the bad guy", the next James was. That's it. Juli Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 02:33:46 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Importance of Death in Horcrux Making In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050806023346.2899.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136668 ongj87 wrote: I'm a little confused on one part. Who says that the murder has to be significant to make a horcrux? Don't we know that Frank Bryce was the death that led to Voldemort making Nagini as horcrux? And I'm certain that Frank Bryce wasn't at all significant to Voldemort, he was just another muggle to him. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. Juli Nobody says that the murder HAS To be significant to creat an Horcrux, it's just the way Voldemort likes to do it. I think he created the Ring-Horcrux with his father's murder, the Locket-Horcrux with that old lady's murder, the diary maybe with Myrtle (I'm not so sure since Tom didn't kill Myrtle, the basilisk did), and he wanted to use Harry to create his last Horcrux, he couldn do it, then turned into Vapor, spent years and years in the forest in Albania, until Peter Pettigrew found him, gave him a wand, and he was once again able to do magic. He went to his dad's old house, and killed (eg AK) Frank Bryce, it wasn't a significant death, but he was there, Nagini was there, so he did it. It was the first true murder after Lily, he had killed Bertha Jones (?) but it was just because she could go back and tell the MoM he was back. When he killed her, he was still very weak and I don't think he could have been able to create the Horcrux. JMO, Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From akhillin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 02:38:32 2005 From: akhillin at yahoo.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: ?Emma?, Twists, and HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050806023832.84149.qmail@web32915.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136669 Pat <5682574 at sbcglobal.net> wrote: [a little off the top, then...] "The best twist ever in literature is in Jane Austen's Emma. To me she is the target of perfection at which we shoot in vain." [a wholesale cut here] Considering that Emma is her favorite book, it`s full of zigzagging shipping, and the twists in it are her target of perfection, I firmly believe JKR put one or more Emma-like twists in HBP, question is, where? [followed by Pat's cogent argument that JKR is setting us up for an "Emma"-like twist to a H/Hr ship] First off, I'm so happy Jane's made an appearance again! Lo these many posts ago, I did a quick and dirty comparison of the romance (if you can call it that) between James and Lily in "Snapes Worst Memory" to Elizabeth and Darcy in "Pride and Prejudice." Now, on to the first Austen I ever read... While I concede you've done an excellent job with your argument, I would suggest that we can also use "Emma" to follow the trajectory of Harry and Ginny. Emma takes Mr. Knightly for granted throughout much of the book, although she values his opinion and listens to him when she refuses to listen to anyone else. She only realizes her own feelings when she hears from Harriet Smith that she cares for Knightly and believes him to return the regard. JEALOUSY is what drops the scales from her eyes. Likewise, Harry values Ginny's friendship, and she's able to reach him when no one else can in OOP, but it's not until he's faced with the reality that she's kissing someone else that his jealousy is aroused and he realizes how he feels. You argue that Mr. Knightly thinks of Emma as a friend and no more prior to her interest in Frank Churchill, but I would argue that he has always loved her, but he was a bit diffident about telling her, given his relationship with the family and that he's had no signal that she returns his love. This would compare with Ginny's decision to step back, since she has no reason to believe Harry cares for her, and she'd rather be his friend than ruin their relationship by pressing the issue. Good authors purloin whatever works for them, and JKR couldn't steal from a better author, IMHO. Whether your take or mine proves to be the case, I think you're onto something with the comparison. akh, who probably repeated someone else's argument, but there are too... many... posts... {gasp!} Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 02:40:39 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:40:39 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > I'm still puzzled how someone could locate the cave before > Dumbledore. There were only a handful of people who knew about the > existence of the cave, all presumed to be Muggles, except for > Voldemort and Dumbledore. Quite a few wizards knew Voldemort was > once the schoolboy Tom Riddle, including Dumbledore, Slughorn, > Lucius, Borgin (?) and a handful of DE's who apparently went to > school with Riddle. But only Dumbledore and Headmaster Dippet seem > to know that Tom Riddle was a half-blood raised in an orphanage. The > others, including Slughorn, assumed a more prestigious heritage or > accepted the Heir of Slytherin link. > Jen, It has been suggested (I can't remember who or when, sorry!) that someone switched the locket before Voldemort placed it in the cave, so that he was actually placing a phony. The obvious hole in the theory being, "How could he not realize it was a fake?" I don't know if I agree with it or not, but it's certainly an interesting idea. Allie From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 02:45:15 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:45:15 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_SHIP:_=93Emma=94,_Twists,_and_HBP?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evilnuff" wrote: > Just because you did not and still do not see something does not mean it is not there. > She flat out admits that she planned and forshadowed both Harry/Ginny and Ron/Herm. relationships all along. Personally as I read the books these seemed like the obvious pairings, if others do not see them that's fine just don't delude yourself into thinking something does not exist just because you don't see it especially when the author flat out tells you it exists! :) > -David True. My problem with the shipping stems from the fact that she uses entirely different types of foreshadowing for the two ships. I also saw R/Hr because it was written as foreshadowing within the story. Ron clearly gets jealeous of Hermione and she seems to express feelings for him in return. Its something the characters are doing. In Harry/Ginny, the foreshadowing is outside the characters. Its something that is born out of literary convention. he saves Ginny from the dragon, just like the hero does in the stories, She beats Cho at quiddich therefore establishing herself as superior to his current love interest, she give him chocolate, which is a symbol of love or sex or something like that (have to ask the H/Gers about that one). Its' stuff that the reader might be able to divine based on having read other stories, but it isn't really born out of character interaction. Of course in HBP she gets into the H/G anvils, but it seems more sudden because there aren't five books of in character tension like there is between R/Hr. Contrast that to someone like Luna. H/L defies every literay convention. Heroes get the princess, not the maid, he gets the beauty, not the outcast. But despite that H/L has a huge (and still remarkably strong) fanbase because there are textual clues that Harry and Luna have chemistry. You have his fascination with her appearance (he notices details about her that he doesn't notice about anyone, including Ginny), you have their increasing friendship over OOTP culminating with the great scene at the end where she comforts him. Even in HBP which is H/G centric there are some gem H/L moments that show great chemstry between the two of them. In a single book, JKR creates a character who became a plausible dark horse contender for Harry's affections. She couldn't have done that if the H/G anvils were as giantsized as she thought they were. I hope there is an emma like ship twist in the final book. And I hope it's with Luna. phoenixgod2000, whose favorite pairing is H/L and still has some hope for it. From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 02:51:36 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:51:36 -0000 Subject: Harry using AK curse?? (was: Snape as the Other) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vera" wrote: > Directly from OOP... > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born > to those who thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and > the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the > Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other > for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the > power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies > ..." > I definitely agree that Harry will pave the way for Voldemort's death/destruction, however, I can't *imagine* Harry actually committing murder. (Even if Voldemort is a homicidal genocidal sociopath, it's still murder unless a court convicts him, right?) Does anyone think that Harry will be able to use an Avada Kedavra? I don't!! So my question (one of many...) is how exactly to read "either must die at the hand of the other." I know it's going to be Voldemort who dies. It can't be Harry, that would be heinous beyond comprehension. What does this "hand of the other" business mean? I've heard talk about Wormtail's new hand, but that makes Wormtail the Other and that doesn't fit with the rest of the prophecy. I also don't think "at the hand of" means "next to" or "by the side of." Maybe it's figuarative? Harry destroys the Horcruxes and then somebody else (my bet = Snape) actually performs the AK on Voldemort? And the death is still by Harry's hand because he destroyed the Horcruxes? Anyone, anyone?? I know the answers are in the books SOMEWHERE!! Allie From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Aug 6 02:56:02 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:56:02 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Sorry Elves, 4th post (if I counted well), but I couldn't let that one > pass. > > Elizabeth wrote: > "What's the difference between "stopping a criminal" using force and > "inducing romantic feelings" in the person I've promised to remain > monogamous with by using a potion? Both serve my better interests. > Both are without consent to the "victim". " > > Del replies: > > Difference number 1: stopping a criminal who has entered your home > without your consent is called self-defense. Taking away someone's > free agency to force them to feel and act in a specific way is an offense. > > Example: injuring someone who is trying to rape you is self-defense. > It's the other person who is going to go to jail, not you. Inversely, > having sex with someone to whom you gave a rape drug is an offense. > You are the one who is going to go to jail, even if you have a video > showing the other person begging you and pulling your clothes off. > > Difference number 2: when someone enters your home without your > consent, they automatically put themselves at risk of your defending > yourself with any means necessary. In short, they *do* give their > consent to being hurt or even killed. But when someone enters into a > romantic relationship with someone else, they do *not* give their > automatic consent to being fed rape drugs. > > In short: in the first case, you're the VICTIM. In the second case > you're the OFFENDER. > > Del Sure..if someone comes into your home, tries to rape you and you injure them that's self defense. Of course... But in the HP universe, I don't think a love potion can actually be characterized as a rape drug.... Rape is a crime of violence, not sex. It involves forcing someone else to have sex, or sexual contact... It involves degrading, humiliating, and exerting power over the other person. If someone is given a love potion, they are indeed forced to be infatuated with the person who gives it to them...and that is wrong... but the person who receives the love potion will not automatically become a rapist....that would be a behavioral choice of acting on feelings of love/attraction/obsession and would depend on the character and choces of that person... The person who gave the love potion would not be a rapist unless they engaged in sexual contact/intercourse with the person to whom they gave the love potion...it's unethical, and it's wrong, but there's another step to rape. Susan McGee If you want to talk with adults over 40, you can join Harry Potter for Grownups over 40 by emailing me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com From nickel313 at yahoo.com.au Sat Aug 6 02:58:31 2005 From: nickel313 at yahoo.com.au (nickel313) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:58:31 -0000 Subject: Hating someone Vs wanting them dead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136674 I have been thinking about this, so I wanted to see what everyone else thought. We know that Snape and James hated each other at school. However, we also know that when James heard that Sirius sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack, James stopped Snape before he could be killed. We also know that Snape told Voldemort about the Prophecy but when he found out what Voldemort was going to do with this information he told Dumbledore. Both these situations make me believe that despite the fact that they both hated each other, neither James nor Snape really wanted the other dead. I see similarities in this regard between Harry and Draco. They both hate each other. However, we saw the reaction of Harry after he used Sectumsempra on Draco - he certainly did not want Draco dead. We also now know that Draco isn't as evil as he would like people to believe. This makes me wonder, will there be a situation in Book 7 where Draco sees that Harry is about to be killed and, despite the fact that he hates Harry, he tries to do something to stop him being killed? Anyway, this is just a thought and I would be interested to see what others think. Nickel From ongj87 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 02:44:23 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:44:23 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136675 phoenixgod2000 - Why was it necessary to deconstruct his father the hero? What possible good does it do for the story? So far it hasn't proven to be much of a major plot point other than to crush Harry. And if it was done to make him more of a 3-D figure then why hasn't the same been done for Lily. Why has Lily been kept pristine and lovely while James was torn down? And not just in the book. In the Mugglenet interview, she specifically mentions that she considers James's actions less brave than Lily's. Why was it necessary to qualify James's actions, what purpose does it serve except to say lessen him alongside his wife? Why couldn't they have been equally brave in different ways? Would that have changed the story? It is basically the only moment in the series where James gets to be great and she had to go and tear it down. While at the same time, perfect sainted Lily gets to remain perfect and sainted. It's disgusting in my view. Ongj87: First of all, for someone who is so against the "male bias" of this book (which I disagree with), you seem to take this favor of Lily over James very sourly, in my opinion. The seventh book is not out yet, obviously, and we obviously know there is something more to Lily than we can see. There was a definite reason why Voldemort was willing to spare Lily's life that night, and I don't think they're very pure reasons either. So we can't argue this point fully until the seventh book comes out. Secondly, this is merely the opinion of JK Rowling as she looks at the events she has written. I doubt she wrote them with a purposeful biased, but just how the story flowed. The circumstances she created just happened to give Lily the oppurtunity to make a heroic sacrifice. I'm sure that JK would agree that if James was given the same circumstnace, he would have without a doubt done the same thing as Lily. It has nothing to do with character, but with the situation, and the situation made it so that Lily had to step up the plate, so to speak. You will no doubt agree with me in saying that when Harry goes to Godric's hollow, he will find out more about his parents. And I have no doubt that Harry's image of being a hero will be reinstated, good as new. The point of breaking the image of a saintly person was to just to support a point that JK is trying to make in this entire series. Harry has met many people who have become good despite their birth circumstances and past, the following characters being only a few examples: Sirius, Remus, Snape, Draco, Hagrid, etc. This whole thing with James is only a piece in the puzzle concerning this matter. No matter what background someone comes from, no matter what family they're born into or what they were born as, not matter what they've done in the past, people can be given a second chance. And people can change. Remind you, I say SECOND chance. Third, forth, and so on chances not included (*ahem* did you hear that TOM?). Ongj87. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 03:20:23 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 03:20:23 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136676 Jen wrote: > I'm still puzzled how someone could locate the cave before > Dumbledore. Saraquel: Me too, Jen. The whole cave incident is a mystery to me. There are so many questions and too many possible scenarios. But how anyone knew about the cave is really the most difficult one to come up with an explanation for. I've posted a few ideas about the cave, most recently, it came up in my "slughorn ? hiding more than meets the eye" post 136478. I read through all your options, and really thought you covered it very well. But even so, to me, none of them are quite satisfactory, which I think you think too (correct me if I'm wrong). Three other explanations which are not entirely satisfactory either really need to be addressed, however. They are: 1) Voldemort planted the locket 2) Dumbledore planted the locket 3) The locket Harry found at Dumbledore's side was not the locket which came from the cave. If any of these are true, we do not need to explain how, a young and apparently unimpressive wizard (no-one has ever mentioned him except Sirius) managed to 1) find the cave and 2) find how to get to the centre of the lake and steal the Horcrux. The problem with this ideas, is finding any justification for them. Oh well ? here goes ? don't expect anything except ramblings which eventually stumble to a blibbering humdinger of a halt. It may just be that we can eliminate them as possibilities ;-) 1) Voldemort planted the locket: Well he might of planted it as a decoy for anyone who cottoned on to his Horcruxes. Lure them to a place they would think was important to him, then get them to join the inferi army and pretend RAB got there first. Hmmmm, no, I don't think that one works. Any other ideas why Voldemort might plant a fake!Horcrux? 2) Dumbledore planted the locket. Funnily enough, this one did occur to me really early on. There was and still is, something that I can't put my finger on, about the cave scene being not quite right. Although I'm really doubtful that DD planted the locket, I did originally wonder if the whole cave scene was in fact a test of Harry by DD to see just how far he could trust him to follow orders. Did DD want to know if Harry would follow his orders, even if DD was going to die because of them. Assuming that DD *didn't* set this up and DD believed that LV had, then before DD drank that potion, he did not know what was going to happen. Although DD felt sure that he wouldn't die immediately, he pretty well knew he was going to be incapacitated and that there could be no guarantee that they would get out of the cave alive. Therefore, this could have been the last moment he was lucidly with Harry, *ever*. There was no apparent time pressure, nothing was going to kick off if DD didn't drink the potion immediately, yet he almost hurried into doing it. He didn't take stock, or use that time to say any famous last words, or impart important information to Harry. If he suspected he was going to die, which let's face it, he should have taken into account ? otherwise, he's supremely arrogant ? then wouldn't he have wanted to pass on everything he knew? Wouldn't he have wanted to suggest to Harry the best way to bump off Voldemort, in the event of finding and destroying all the Horcruxes? Wouldn't he have mentioned how his hand got duffed up? But no ? he just drinks the potion. Or was it just that JKR didn't want to give future bits of the plot away ;-) So did DD know what was in the potion because he had set it up? Another, lesser thing that's iffy for me, is the description of the location of the cave, with it's shear cliff face. Tom took those kids there before he had any training as a wizard. I know that he had discovered his talent and was using it, and can believe he got himself down the cliff, but brought 2 kids with him? So that was the first thing that made me uneasy about the cave. However, there is plenty of stuff to the contrary to imply that DD genuinely believed that this was Voldemort's hiding place. For instance, why if it was just a training exercise, would he have made a point of adding the touch about the crudity of the archway. Also, if DD had set it up as a training exercise, what was in the potion? It definitely had an effect. Also, there is no way that DD would use inferi in any way whatsoever. So on the whole, I can't think that DD planted the locket and set up the cave scene. 3) The locket Harry found is not the locket which came from the cave. Now, there is some sort of case that can be made for this. I posted on this very early on and then decided that it was too off the wall. But the original post is 132910, which basically says that DD and Harry recovered the real Horcrux!Locket from the cave, but Aberforth planted the Fake!Locket beside Dumbledore's body for Harry to find. Note that Harry did not really register which locket it was in the basin at the cave. According to my previous theory, this would mean that the Horcrux!locket is still in Draught-of- living-death-potioned!Dumbledore's pocket inside his tomb ? yes I know, but I'm still rather fond of that theory .. If, as we are speculating, that the Horcrux!Locket was in the cave, then what is my explanation for Aberforth planting the fake!locket. Well the justification for Aberforth having the locket from Grimauld Place, which in this scenario, is *not* the Horcrux!locket, but the Fake!Locket runs something like this: >From message 135132 ? (which argues something completely different btw, so don't get confused here, I'm just quoting this bit about why I think Aberforth has a locket.) "I've seen speculation that Mung and Snape/Draco had the Grimauld Place locket. Imo Aberforth has it. In UK ed ch12 p230 when Harry et al come across Mung outside the Three Broomsticks, it says there were two people,"one was very tall and thin; squinting through his rain-washed glasses Harry recognised the barman who worked in the other Hogsmeade pub, the Hog's Head. As Harry, Ron and Hermione drew closer, the barman drew his cloak more tightly around his neck and walked away, leaving the shorter man to fumble with something in his arms." So what was Mundungus doing with Aberforth outside the Three Broomsticks?" Especially as according to Lupin or Sirius, Mung was banned from the Hogs Head 20 years ago and that's why he was dressed as a witch to spy on the DA recruitment meeting. So there is a strong possibility that Aberforth has the Grimauld Place locket which could have been made by Regulus in preparation for going to destroy a Horcrux. The Horcrux he was intending to destroy was not necessarily the Locket Horcrux, it could have been one of the other Horcruxes that Voldemort made and hid. Maybe Regulus just used a locket to contain his message. After all, even if Regulus could have found the cave, how did he know that the Horcrux was going to be a locket? Why Aberforth would place the locket next to DDs body, is another question entirely and to be honest with you, I'm written out for the moment. Time to go. Tell me what you think. Saraquel From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 03:34:01 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 03:34:01 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136677 > Ongj87: > First of all, for someone who is so against the "male bias" of this > book (which I disagree with), you seem to take this favor of Lily > over James very sourly, in my opinion. Bias *against* men, not bias towards them. Hence the sourness over James being supposedly less brave. > The seventh book is not out yet, obviously, and we obviously know > there is something more to Lily than we can see. There was a > definite reason why Voldemort was willing to spare Lily's life that > night, and I don't think they're very pure reasons either. So we > can't argue this point fully until the seventh book comes out. Perhaps. We certainly don't know it all, but I doubt will learn anything that will change the past that much. > Secondly, this is merely the opinion of JK Rowling as she looks at > the events she has written. I doubt she wrote them with a > purposeful biased, but just how the story flowed. The circumstances > she created just happened to give Lily the oppurtunity to make a > heroic sacrifice. I'm sure that JK would agree that if James was > given the same circumstnace, he would have without a doubt done the > same thing as Lily. It has nothing to do with character, but with > the situation, and the situation made it so that Lily had to step up > the plate, so to speak. Once again, maybe. I'm not so sure about that. I think it's telling that it is always the mother getting the chance to step up, leaving the father behind. > You will no doubt agree with me in saying that when Harry goes to > Godric's hollow, he will find out more about his parents. And I > have no doubt that Harry's image of being a hero will be reinstated, > good as new. The point of breaking the image of a saintly person > was to just to support a point that JK is trying to make in this > entire series. Harry has met many people who have become good > despite their birth circumstances and past, the following characters > being only a few examples: Sirius, Remus, Snape, Draco, Hagrid, > etc. This whole thing with James is only a piece in the puzzle > concerning this matter. No matter what background someone comes > from, no matter what family they're born into or what they were born > as, not matter what they've done in the past, people can be given a > second chance. And people can change. Remind you, I say SECOND > chance. Third, forth, and so on chances not included (*ahem* did > you hear that TOM?). We'll have to agree to disagree on some of those characters. I still don't think much of Snape or Draco. If saintly characters have to be deconstructed for her point, why not do it for Lily as well? Why only the father? From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Aug 6 03:34:54 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 03:34:54 -0000 Subject: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > phoenixgod2000 > - Why was it necessary to deconstruct his father the > hero? What > possible good does it do for the story? So far it hasn't proven to > be much of a major plot point other than to crush Harry. And if it > was done to make him more of a 3-D figure then why hasn't the same > been done for Lily. Why has Lily been kept pristine and lovely while > James was torn down? And not just in the book. In the Mugglenet > interview, she specifically mentions that she considers James's > actions less brave than Lily's. Why was it necessary to qualify > James's actions, what purpose does it serve except to say lessen him > alongside his wife? Why couldn't they have been equally brave in > different ways? Would that have changed the story? It is basically > the only moment in the series where James gets to be great and she > had to go and tear it down. While at the same time, perfect sainted > Lily gets to remain perfect and sainted. > > It's disgusting in my view. > > > > Ongj87: > > The seventh book is not out yet, obviously, and we obviously know > there is something more to Lily than we can see. There was a > definite reason why Voldemort was willing to spare Lily's life that > night, and I don't think they're very pure reasons either. So we > can't argue this point fully until the seventh book comes out. > > Secondly, this is merely the opinion of JK Rowling as she looks at > the events she has written. I doubt she wrote them with a > purposeful biased, but just how the story flowed. The circumstances > she created just happened to give Lily the oppurtunity to make a > heroic sacrifice. I'm sure that JK would agree that if James was > given the same circumstnace, he would have without a doubt done the > same thing as Lily. It has nothing to do with character, but with > the situation, and the situation made it so that Lily had to step up > the plate, so to speak. > > You will no doubt agree with me in saying that when Harry goes to > Godric's hollow, he will find out more about his parents. And I > have no doubt that Harry's image of being a hero will be reinstated, > good as new. > > > Ongj87. Ong, I agree in part. First, doesn't JKR say that Harry's disillusionment with James is part of an important developmental milestone -- teenagers withdraw from their parents as they notice their flaws -- only to come to the recognition as adults, that their parents were great people who also had flaws (putting aside abusive parents for the moment)... Second, I love JKR's books because she clearly says that almost all evil people have some good in them (Voldemort is the exception)..and all good people have flaws -- even DD, McGonagall, James, Lily, Harry, Arthur, Molly, Remus --- they all have things that we can criticize and they all have done brave, amazing things.... If there is nothing we can criticize in Lily, yet, that just means we don't know her very well! In real life, heroes such as Martin Luther King, Harriet Tubman, Gandhi are NOT flawless -- yet they are people who do extraordinary things.... JKR is not trashing James, or deconstructing him as a hero....She's filling in the details of his personality, including the fact that he was a bit of a prat as a teenager....lots of people develop and mature later...including, I hope, Ron Weasley...I could write a terribly long negative essay about Ron if I wanted to focus on his bad points...but I think he will mature into a good man..... I will give a lot of leeway to any member of the Order of the Phoenix, because they are truly risking their lives to fight the terrorism, murder and oppression of Lord Voldemort....(we don't know if Severus the Snape is a true member yet, and Peter Pettigrew becomes a traitor).....It takes a lot of guts to be in the forefront of the fight...it's very easy to sit back and let others do the work (Slughorn)...and there are members of the Hogwarts faculty who are not members of the Order.... So viva James and viva Lily Susan McGee From devika261 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 04:09:24 2005 From: devika261 at hotmail.com (Devika) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 04:09:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...> wrote: > Pat: Your (Susan's) post includes reasons to believe Ginny is using > Love Potion Perfume on Harry. You've collected times when Harry > felt attraction to one degree or another for Ginny. Each time, he > has been near her, and could have been affected by her wearing Love > Potion perfume. There are other times that you would expect he > would think of her, but doesn't, and he hadn't been near her > recently either. The biggest example is that he had no thoughts > about going to Ginny's house for Christmas, he only thought about > Ron. Either this is inconsistency from Jo and the editors let it go, > or there is a reason for it. > > If the twins make potion disguised as perfume, there is a good > chance they used flowers from the Burrows garden, making their > potion perfume smell similar to the garden. Their bedroom would > have the same scent from using it as a workshop, or from stored > stock. There is the possibility that the perfume Ron gave Hermione > was from the twins - Ron's nonchalant reaction to Hermione's comment > goes better with that than if he went out and bought it from a shop. > And what happened to that perfume? Is Hermione wearing it? We > didn't think she would, but we didn't think she'd play Quidditch, > either. Did she pass it off to Ginny, who recognized what it was > from seeing the twins stock at the Burrow? > > Pat: and we see that inhaling the fumes of a potion has an effect > on at least 2 people sitting at the same table, and that it is a > milder effect than consuming aged Love Potion. > > This is an interesting theory. However, I have a few questions about it. First, where in the book does it say that love potions can be worn as perfume? I thought that Fred and George just put their love potions into perfume or cough potion bottles so that Filch wouldn't recognize them for what they really were (p 306-307 HBP US edition). The love potions would then be delivered to Hogwarts under this disguise, and they would then be slipped into the drink of an unsuspecting target. I understand that the scent of the Amortentia potion has an effect on people, but if love potion could be worn as perfume, wouldn't the other Hogwarts girls have figured this out? Surely Romilda Vane (not to mention all the others) would have found it easier to douse herself with love potion and simply stand next to Harry, rather than attempting to spike his gillywater or chocolate cauldrons. I feel like I may be missing something here. I've only read the book twice, so I don't quite remember every detail yet (I'm working on it ;)). If there's somewhere in the book that says that love potion is effective as a perfume, can someone point it out? Otherwise, this seems a bit inconsistent to me. Devika From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 6 04:57:23 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 04:57:23 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136680 > Cindy wrote: > > Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard that ever lived, tells Harry > > that the reason he is drinking the potion instead of Harry is > > that Harry is MUCH more valuable. > > So what IS it that is so unique and VALUABLE about Harry? I just > > hate to think that at the end of book 7, the OOTP, Ron, Hermione > > and Ginny are all pointing their wands at Harry and Voldemort's > > final confrontation, all with tears in their eyes as they have > > to destroy Harry the Horcrux and then Voldemort. > Carol responds: > I'm equally puzzled by the idea that Harry's capacity to love > exceeds Dumbledore's. > I can't see Harry using an Unforgiveable Curse, the weapon of the > Death Eaters, to kill Voldemort. We know (okay, we assume), that he > will (with help from other wizards) "kill" the remaining four > Horcruxes (Nagini, perhaps, using the Sword of Gryffindor). But > what if he destroys Voldemort, who could not endure to possess > Harry in OoP, by possessing him, literally killing him with Love? Jen: Actually, Dumbledore tells Harry his *blood* is more valuable. Voldemort denies both his literal blood heritage, even to the point of murdering his bloodline, and his symbolic WW blood status as a half-blood. The only importance he places on blood is when it's to his advantage, like being the Heir of Slytherin. Contrast that with Harry & you see such a different scenario. Dumbledore valued Lily's blood enough to "put my trust in your mother's blood." He risked the future of the WW on Harry's blood protection! Harry's blood *is* more valuable than Dumbledore's. The prophecy may have been a self-fulfilling one, but Dumbledore made it clear Harry is the only one who is dangerous to Voldemort because *Voldemort made it so*. All the ways in which Voldemort has killed people are closed to him with Harry. Voldemort can't posssess him, the brother wands will 'not work properly against each other if forced to do battle', & Harry is surrounded by people who are willing to die for him. He's been saved by his father, his mother, Sirius, and countless times, by Dumbledore (with the assistance of Fawkes). Voldemort could never dream of inspiring such love or loyalty like Harry does, without even trying! But most important is the blood. Voldemort literally weakened himself when he used Harry's blood for his re-birthing, once again underestimating its value. It's not Lily's love coursing through his veins that weakens him, it's taking the blood of one who is pure of heart, just as he did with the unicorn. He cursed himself. Like the brother-wand effect, or being unable to possess Harry, the taking of the blood will backfire on Voldemort. My guess is he will once again try to AK Harry, after the Horcruxes are gone, and the curse will again rebound, only this time killing him for good. Voldemort won't be able to kill the innocent person before him, not when that person's blood runs through his veins. Jen From golden_faile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 04:59:00 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 04:59:00 -0000 Subject: Hating someone Vs wanting them dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nickel313" wrote: > I have been thinking about this, so I wanted to see what everyone > else thought. > > Both these situations make me believe that despite > the fact that they both hated each other, neither James nor Snape > really wanted the other dead. Laila wrote: I have definitely been thinking along those lines... everything is life is not always black and white, there are a few grey areas and this definitely falls under that category. > > I see similarities in this regard between Harry and Draco. They both > hate each other. However, we saw the reaction of Harry after he used > Sectumsempra on Draco - he certainly did not want Draco dead. > > Anyway, this is just a thought and I would be interested to see what > others think. > Laila Wrote: Draco is definitely not as evil as he wants evryone to believe. Oh yes, he's very spoiled and bigoted and alot of things... but Murderer? I think that at first he thought that it would be easy and he had all of this resentment and jealousy built up because he wasn't treated special because of his blood lines and Harry was Dumbledore's golden boy... how could he compete? I can't believe that he hates any of the trio enough to want to see them dead and I think that he came to that realization when He had his little chat with Dumbledore on the tower... I think he came to the understanding that just because he didn't agree with Dumbledore's ideas, or the general way in which the school was run, did not give him reason enough to kill. He was still thinking like a kid, but he got a rude awakening and had to grow up real quick. It will be interesting to see how his character developes after this, but I have a feeling that she is not going to go that far ni depth about it. Laila From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 05:19:18 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:19:18 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Anyway, the description of the type of houses and the mill chimney are classic north of England. Manchester (in the then county of > Lancaster) was the centre of the cotton milling industry and was the cradle of the industrial revolution. Leeds was the centre of the wool industry. The Spinning Jenny (a mechanised loom) was invented in the mid to late 18th Century and caused riots, as before that time, people had spun cloth in their homes. But it's invention (plus steam technology) brought about the building of mills to process both wool and cotton. (Snip)> > The houses which were built for the mill workers all across the north of England were small and (Snip)> > The description of Snape's house and the area which the sisters walk through, is very much an area of either terraced or back to back housing. Tonks: I wonder if there is any connection between the actually place "Spinners End" and goats and socks and DD's brother and DD's Mirror of Erised socks, and then Snape tossed in too. JKR has certainly used a play on words for the location of Snape's house and what Snape himself is (a spinner of lies, traps, webs, etc. And the fact that his taking the vow is his *end*). It probably means nothing, but reading your post just caused those little flashes to go off in my mind.. (flash) wool= socks = goats? = DD's brother ETC. I just wonder if there is more to it. I wish we knew more of the back story on socks, goats and brother. (yes I know wool comes from sheep, but goat hair is used for weaving too.) Any thoughts? Tonks_op From golden_faile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 05:40:14 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:40:14 -0000 Subject: silly ( or not so silly) thoughts Page 503 and socks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136683 Is it just my copy of HBP or does everyone have a Squiggle in their books on page 503 that looks suspciously like a man with a walrus-like moustache? My daughter pointed this out to me while we were reading... She also asked me if Harry's socks have some sort of "meaning" because in every book he hides something in his socks(Sneakoscope, Felix Felicis) and he freed Dobby with a Smelly old sock, there are many other references to Harry and his socks... I just looked at her and said "you might have something, I never thought of it before". Has anyone else noticed these things? Laila From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 05:53:35 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:53:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's wounded hand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wrexx1" wrote: > > Any speculation as to why DD, with his vast magical skill and the > super healing powers of a phoenix nearby, left his burned hand in that > condition? > > Wrexx Valky: Yeah, I have Theory. Dumbledore sustained this injury trying to destroy a Horcrux of Voldemort as we know, so starting there I think that it can be pieced together like this: First we have the Diary Horcrux (Voldemort made at a very young age becaue *even then* he was obseesed with cheating death) - A Young Voldemort possesses the body of a young inexperienced newling witch. Due to his charm and her lack of experience she offers virtually no resistance for the most part. She kills all the Roosters so that the Basilisk can be released, and the deadly Basilisk, commanded by the young Voldemort is two things, a very nasty weapon against Muggleborns *and* a bodyguard for him against other Wizardkind (as he used it against Harry). Later when Ginny does begin to resist, the young Voldemort *fights a little harder* to stay alive, he forces her down to the Chamber of Secrets to complete the process. By the time Harry gets to Ginny, she is "blue and cold" like she was very near *death*. If we pinch a few fragments from that synopsis we can stitch up a scenario for the ring. Lets assume that the Ring was endowed with similar powers to the Diary which are: The Power to possess the Holder. The inclination to fight against any resistance or attempt on the LV life inside it. An inbuilt, or access to a, bodyguard. Then we have: The Ring Horcrux (likely to have been created by an older stronger Voldemort.) - Assuming the above were true, then we could say that after Dumbledore passed the lesser protections on the ring in the Gaunt House it followed through with it's greater protections: First it tried to possess Dumbledore - Dumbledore most likely expected this attack on him and was prepared to resist and held the spirit of Voldemort at bay possibly in his hand where it had entered. Now the Spirit then has an inclination to fight like it did with Ginny so it exerts more force of Dumbledore, which DD again resists. Finally it calls on it's Secret Weapon, like the Basilisk, and unleashes a terrible curse on Dumbledore. DD rushes off to Snape who lifts the curse (Snape might even have invented it) for him. But now the ring must be destroyed. DD now, Like Harry with the Diary in the Chamber, has just seconds to act bravely before Voldemorts defiant soul makes it's next move to ensure its own survival. Without thinking twice about it Dumbledore slams down the ring in front of him and in the blink of an eye destroys it with a powerful magic, *while it's still attached to his hand*! But as he said, a small price to pay for a seventh of Voldemorts soul, don't you think? Valky From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 6 06:00:07 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:00:07 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136685 > Saraquel: > Me too, Jen. The whole cave incident is a mystery to me. There are > so many questions and too many possible scenarios. But how anyone > knew about the cave is really the most difficult one to come up with > an explanation for. I've posted a few ideas about the cave, most > recently, it came up in my "slughorn ? hiding more than meets the > eye" post 136478. Jen: I read your post this morning Saraquel, in fact it made me think about the improbability of someone finding the cave. I'm still letting my thoughts on Slughorn percolate, because I didn't notice much about him while reading. Well, except he's a bit of a coward . But more on that in another post. >Saraquel: > I read through all your options, and really thought you covered it > very well. But even so, to me, none of them are quite > satisfactory, which I think you think too (correct me if I'm > wrong). Jen: That's the problem! None of my suggestions further the story or explain who would be willing to die to take out *one* of Voldemort's Horcruxes. Saraquel: > Three other explanations which are not entirely satisfactory > either really need to be addressed, however. They are: > > 1) Voldemort planted the locket > 2) Dumbledore planted the locket > 3) The locket Harry found at Dumbledore's side was not the locket > which came from the cave. > > If any of these are true, we do not need to explain how, a young > and apparently unimpressive wizard (no-one has ever mentioned him > except Sirius) managed to 1) find the cave and 2) find how to get > to the centre of the lake and steal the Horcrux. The problem with > this ideas, is finding any justification for them. Jen: (I'm snipping for brevity here, but anyone reading my post ought to take a look upthread at Saraquel's explanations). I can't accept that Regulus, whatever his abilities, with or without helpers, was the one who stole the locket!! Even Slughorn, who likes to improve his status by talking up his trophy students, doesn't ooh and aah over Regulus. Sirius was a 'talented boy' but all Slughorn cares about is having a matched set of Black brothers in his house to brag on, and hopefully, as an entree to more gifts from Mother Black! That's really the basis of all my wondering--it can't be Regulus. Not much to go on. ;) Saraquel: > 1) Voldemort planted the locket: Well he might of planted it as a > decoy for anyone who cottoned on to his Horcruxes. Lure them to a > place they would think was important to him, then get them to join > the inferi army and pretend RAB got there first. Jen: Actually, I like this one. Except Voldemort would enjoy taking credit right before the interloper got dragged down in the lake to join the Inferi. So no explanation for RAB. > 2) Dumbledore planted the locket. Funnily enough, this one did > occur to me really early on. There was and still is, something > that I can't put my finger on, about the cave scene being not > quite right. Jen: Like it's overdone maybe? And not as clever as it could be? Those thoughts ocurred to me. Voldemort really messed up quite a few simple protections, like the boat. But then Dumbledore spent half the book explaining the psychology of Voldemort to Harry and it fits that Voldemort would be the type to overlook the very obvious in order to capitalize on his obsessions. Like planning the boat to capsize only if the 'weight' of magical ability drowns it. That's such a Voldemort thing to do, given his burning desire to be the 'greatest socerer'. Saraquel: > Although DD felt sure that he wouldn't die immediately, he > pretty well knew he was going to be incapacitated and that there > could be no guarantee that they would get out of the cave alive. > Therefore, this could have been the last moment he was lucidly > with Harry, *ever*. There was no apparent time pressure, nothing > was going to kick off if DD didn't drink the potion immediately, > yet he almost hurried into doing it. He didn't take stock, or use > that time to say any famous last words, or impart important > information to Harry. If he suspected he was going to die, which > let's face it, he should have taken into account ? otherwise, he's > supremely arrogant ? then wouldn't he have wanted to pass on > everything he knew? Jen: Maybe it's supreme confidence in his abilities and the people he surrounds himself with? Once DD got his promise from Harry, he knows Harry won't break his word. That's not something Harry does. And Dumbledore also trusts Harry's abilites to get them home--he's proven himself over and over. And I truly belive Dumbledore expected Severus would patch him up once he got back to Hogwarts because that's what *Severus* does. He didn't account for the DE's at Hogwarts in his plan, however. I think if anything, Dumbledore's unwavering trust was at the heart of his belief they would make it out alive. Saraquel: > Or was it just that JKR didn't want to give future bits of the > plot away ;-) Jen: Yes, that too ;). Saraquel: > However, there is plenty of stuff to the contrary to imply that DD > genuinely believed that this was Voldemort's hiding place. For > instance, why if it was just a training exercise, would he have > made a point of adding the touch about the crudity of the > archway. Also, if DD had set it up as a training exercise, what > was in the potion? It definitely had an effect. Also, there is > no way that DD would use inferi in any way whatsoever. Jen: We do have some foreshadowing with the Slughorn scene that magic can be used to obscure the truth. It *could* be the cave scene where we see magic being used to obscure, but that would be Voldemort playing games, not DD. Dumbledore has a 'style' of magic same as he pointed out about Voldemort. I don't think wizards trying to imitate another's style do very well with it, just as we saw with Slughorn. He was trying to imitate a DE scenario but forgot the most important part, the Dark Mark! It's certainly one of the first things the DE's did after entering Hogwarts (as a ruse, but still-- No DE would forget the Dark Mark). Saraquel: > 3) The locket Harry found is not the locket which came from the > cave. Now, there is some sort of case that can be made for this. > I posted on this very early on and then decided that it was too > off the wall. But the original post is 132910, which basically > says that DD and Harry recovered the real Horcrux!Locket from the > cave, but Aberforth planted the Fake!Locket beside Dumbledore's > body for Harry to find. > If, as we are speculating, that the Horcrux!Locket was in the > cave, then what is my explanation for Aberforth planting the fake! > locket. Well the justification for Aberforth having the locket > from Grimauld Place, which in this scenario, is *not* the Horcrux! > locket, but the Fake!Locket..... Jen: OK, I think I'm getting this one. So the locket they found in the cave was real, but the locket beside DD was fake. It *is* possible Aberforth followed DD and Harry back to Hogwarts, or was already there, drawn by the Dark Mark. But it's more likely he followed, because DD dismantled the protections as he flew in. And there's even a motivation--Aberforth would know Harry would find it difficult to destroy the real Horcrux, he's just not as powerful as a seasoned wizard in that particular way (dealing with curses and hexes and the like). But that wouldn't explain the fake note because Harry would continue on a wild goose chase to find the real Locket! Horcrux and waste his time. I don't know, I'm going to think on this one more. I'm tired now, too! Need a few ibuprofen. Jen From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 06:15:52 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:15:52 -0000 Subject: silly ( or not so silly) thoughts Page 503 and socks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" wrote: > > Is it just my copy of HBP or does everyone have a Squiggle in their > books on page 503 that looks suspciously like a man with a walrus-like > moustache? My daughter pointed this out to me while we were reading... > She also asked me if Harry's socks have some sort of "meaning" because > in every book he hides something in his socks(Sneakoscope, Felix > Felicis) and he freed Dobby with a Smelly old sock, there are many > other references to Harry and his socks... I just looked at her and > said "you might have something, I never thought of it before". Has > anyone else noticed these things? > > Laila No sightings w/in the pages... But socks are huge... 1. They are the best gift Harry ever recieved from the Dursleys.. 2. Fake-Mad-Eye noticed the socks Dobby knitted for Harry. 3. They make excellent hiding places. 4. they make excellent storage devices. Doddie (who wonders if one of the Horcruxes is hidden in a pair of Voldies old socks that he left behind at Durmstrang...After all, Victor hasn't visited us again...and is it really such a long stretch to wonder if Voldie taught there?!?!?) From juli17 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 06:36:09 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 02:36:09 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's wounded hand Message-ID: <11.4aa3d44f.3025b459@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136687 Any speculation as to why DD, with his vast magical skill and the super healing powers of a phoenix nearby, left his burned hand in that condition? Wrexx Julie says: I assume phoenixes can't heal everything. Fawkes didn't show up to help Dumbledore on the Tower either. So some curses must be impervious to phoenix tears. I don't know about anyone else, but I was getting kind of annoyed with the continual mention of Dumbledore's blackened hand. I too thought "Why doesn't he fix that stupid thing, it's gross!" But I don't think he could fix it. It occurred to me once DD died that his hand was a symbol of his impending death. (So was the fact that he fervently started teaching Harry about Tom's past and about the horcruxes, after five years of a basically hands off approach, I think. And as for putting Snape in the cursed DADA position, well that decision fits a "limited time left" theory too.) I don't know if Dumbledore was actually dying throughout the book, but I do think the curse could only be stopped before it did further damage, not reversed. Thus DD's hand was basically dead, though the rest of him continued to survive. Perhaps the second curse in the cave potion undid any possibility of continued survival. That would explain why DD seemed to be fading fast on the Tower. And it may be that the lake water Harry splashed on DD's face had the added effect of setting in motion a transformation into an inferi, a reason for DD to "choose" death on his own terms, i.e., plead with Snape to deliver the killing blow before the inferi transformation could take full effect. We never got enough concrete information to prove any of these points, and deliberately so on JKR's part. We'll have towait for Book 7 for that proof (or disproof). But this is the explanation that works best for me. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 06:58:23 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:58:23 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > "potioncat" wrote: > > Back when everyone was guessing about Spinner's End, someone came up > > with a real life location in an industrial area of England. Does > > anyone recall that? It was possibly an old, no longer used address > or > > place name. Saraquel: > Hi Potioncat, it might have been me, I know I wrote about the > possible location of Spinner's End in answer to a post about Hagrid > taking baby Harry to Snape's house before going to the Dursley's. > Anyway, the description of the type of houses and the mill chimney are > classic north of England. Manchester (in the then county of > Lancaster) was the centre of the cotton milling industry and was the > cradle of the industrial revolution. Leeds was the centre of the wool > industry. The Spinning Jenny (a mechanised loom) was invented in the > mid to late 18th Century and caused riots, as before that time, people > had spun cloth in their homes. But it's invention (plus steam > technology) brought about the building of mills to process both wool > and cotton. This originated in the slave trade to the West Indies and > Southern United States in the 17th/18th century. As you know, cotton > was grown, which was then shipped back to England and arrived in the > port of Liverpool. It was then taken up the Manchester Ship Canal and > processed in and around the city. > > The wool industry was based on the other side of the range of hills > that runs up the centre of England (The Pennines) The centre was > Leeds, but also towns like Halifax, Huddersfield and Wakefield (in the > county of Yorkshire). Geoff: A couple of points. (1) Back in the early post-HBP days(!), I wrote in message 132927: "Spinner's End. We still don't know where it is. But the ruined chimney and the name of the road make me think of a Lancashire cotton town ? I grew up in one. Workers in the mills were sometimes called weavers or spinners. This chapter though, for me, was a real eye- opener so early in the book." Just to enlarge a fraction on that comment, my mother (and also my maternal grandfather) both worked in the cotton weaving industry before she was married and I recall living in the sort of terrace houses Saraquel mentioned in Burnley, in North-east Lancashire, until I was 9. (2) Referring back to Spinners End as a name, I would recommend that if you go back to message 116875, thread title "What we find there", Steve kicked off discussion on the whereabouts of this place when it was first revealed as a chapter name round about the end of October last year. The names of an industrial estate in Cradley Heath in the West Midlands and an area in Weston-Super-Mare in North Somerset featured in the discussion. It is interesting to re-read these threads in hindsight. From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 6 08:18:20 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 08:18:20 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136689 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > Remember, that at the time that Dumbledore makes his point about > > needing 'more time' /Sirius has NOT been saved yet/; that occurs in > > the future. > > Since he runs into the kids as soon as he leaves the room for them > to time-travel, I get the impression that while he is saying this to > them, TT!they are in the middle of saving Sirius. > > > There is nothing Dumbledore can do about saving Harry; > > somehow that worked itself out. > > Here's my problem: in order for Harry to survive the Dementors, his > time-travelling self had to be there. But his time-travelling self > was only able to be there because he time-travelled. But he can't > have time-travelled without being saved... so how does he get the > opportunity to time travel in the first place? > > The consequences of simply saying that time never occurred in a > different way severely contradict everything that JKR put into the > mouths of McGonagall and Hermione. > > - davenclaw Sandra writes Hi Davenclaw, You are so right on this point. I've been making it for a while and some people go along with it, others block it out, and some get cross. If Harry was saving someone else's life, ie if only Sirius was there being attacked and Harry saves him with a Patronus, then I think it's okay (for that particular section). I don't understand why so many people can't see this very simple, but very large, plot hole. You can't save yourself from being killed, if the only reason you survive is because a 'post-death' you went back! It makes my head spin that not only was it not dealt with by an editor, but it also made it onto film! Sandra From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Aug 6 09:07:49 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 02:07:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My own hope for Book Seven In-Reply-To: <00be01c598b2$32510ba0$00570043@hppav> References: <00be01c598b2$32510ba0$00570043@hppav> Message-ID: <762667820.20050806020749@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136690 LOL at your H/R/Hr/G/L scene, Eric! :) Wednesday, August 3, 2005, 10:05:49 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: EO> Seriously, the whole "Oh, I've got to leave you because of this dangerous EO> mission" schtick would have about any of the women I know furious, EO> particularly if it came from a guy they really cared for. Hopefully, Harry EO> will get his head on straight between now and Book Seven. Frankly, when I read Harry giving that speech to Ginny, my thoughts to myself were: "Harry must have seen _Casablanca_ twelve times -- The only things missing were the raincoat, the fog, and the words, 'We'll always have Hogsmeade.'" And I agree: I don't think Ingrid -- I mean Ginny :) -- will take it lying down... -- Dave From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 09:12:49 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:12:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's wounded hand In-Reply-To: <11.4aa3d44f.3025b459@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: Any speculation as to why DD, with his vast magical skill and the super healing powers of a phoenix nearby, left his burned hand in that condition? > > Wrexx Yes, My speculation is that DD told Snape that Voldie had one Horcrux when going to retrieve the ring. (hence Snape thought he could kill voldie now--hence why Slughorn's true memory was important...This is also why Slug was made potions master..and snape given the DADA postion despite the reasons why dd never gave him the postion before.)...during the destroying of the horcrux...DD took a fatal blow...Snape gave DD a stopper in death potion...(not dark magic as DD allowed snape to teach this potion at hogwarts..and stopper of death was part of the cirriculum--on both snapes and slugs curriculums)...DD thought the best of Snape(but worse yet...trusted snape...and I still believe DD trusted Snape to be Snape!!!...but that was not to be..DD sent Snape back to voldie with Snape thinking the Horcrux was destroyed! *snicker* (I wouldn't snicker but dd did give snape a choice...He sent Snape back thinking voldie can die) If Harry knows little, if MM knows so little that she ask's harry at the end of hbp....then we must assume that Snape knows less...he is left to conjecture as DD has done all these years. (when Snape thought it was all about learning how to deafeat voldie...it was simmply to learn about voldie personally...things snape could have gleaned....hence, as I stated before; DD DID trust SNAPE to be SNAPE!!! > > > > > Julie says: > I assume phoenixes can't heal everything. Fawkes didn't show up > to help Dumbledore on the Tower either. So some curses must be > impervious to phoenix tears. doddie here: If Fawkes was not on the tower to save DD...then this is why he froze Harry...because DD did not trust Snape to do the right thing....only the "easy thing"....Snape probably AK'd DD because he thought Fawkes would rescue DD...but it was not to be...(massive joke on snape here; and Snape probably thinks DD is not dead..--at least not for a while) Now we must ask ourselves....who did DD assign Fawkes to that night...and is this why he froze Harry because there'd be no room for mistakes?!?!?!?!?! Who else needed to stay alive?!?! This also explains why Snape never bothered to Kill Harry---because he thought Fawkes would be there! Doddie (ending tiradette) > > I don't know about anyone else, but I was getting kind of annoyed > with the continual mention of Dumbledore's blackened hand. doddie here: you must pay attention to Hermione's description of DD's hand....(key word( DEAD).... doddie gone I too thought "Why doesn't he fix that stupid thing, it's gross!" Doddie here: Hence Snape performed the stopper of death---hence he thought it'd be okay to make an unbreakable vow....but alas...DD drank that stinkin' potion...and it seems fairly certain that his life force began slipping way at an increased rate...and if it had not been for Harry apparating with DD...he probably would have been dead before DD could reach the tower. (snippage) > > I don't know if Dumbledore was actually dying throughout the book, Doddie here: I believe so...because we never see that blackened hand healing...nor dd hiiding it (which he would have done if he thought it would heal) Also we do have Hermione's comment at the sorting feast. And I don't think it was simply his hand I believe the "blackness was spreading) doddie here: I think you are right...hence DD shows his hand...but keeps his robes down... doddie gone > but I do think the curse could only be stopped before it did further damage, not reversed. If you think this, then there are only three who could stop it.....madame pomfrey (according to harry--but dd's behavior at the end of HBP doesn't want/need her involved); and Professor Snape (accordding to DD); or Fawkes none of which happened. The question in my mind is... Who or what was Fawkes guarding that: 1. DD's hand was blackened. (no phoenix tears) 2. DD died at the hand of Snape. (this is the ONLY reason why DD may not be dead...but I think DD is dead) 3. Fawkes was not around to heal Bill... 4. Fawkes was not around during both DD's and Harry's greatest dilemmas... Fawkes' lament happened in the aftermath...so I'd have to think that when all this was going on at hogwarts.....Voldemort,or one of his cronies must have been doing something even greater that Fawkes needed to keep watch on.... which leads us to the question of... "If Snape was DD's 'sacrificial lamb'"....then who/what was Fawkes watching....or who/what was Fawkes protecting. Doddie.... (who may have made a point or two....but wonders what gives a phoenix his healing/re-birth powers......and does sacrifical love/healing come into play here...and wonders if DD's sacrifice will allow Fawke's tears to have more than healing powers if Harry must sacrifice himself...after all....Fawkes did play a role in the rescue of both Harry and Ginny in COS!) From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 09:16:59 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:16:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny (+ Emma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136692 I think maybe people are making much too much out of the simple truth of Harry and the Love Potion. To Harry, the POTION that smells like Ginny. He does not fall for her because of this, but quite the opposite... he smells this because he has already fallen for Ginny and doesn't realize it. Ginny is not wearing or trying to deliberately recreate the scent of the potion. (No one was even aware of what the scents were but Harry.) If she was wearing Amortentia, wouldn't she also smell like treacle and broomsticks, not just flowers? (Side note... I can't help wondering what of Ron Hermione's third scent was... hope it wasn't his socks!) Harry finds the flowery scent to be of something vaguely familiar, something from the Burrow. It seems to me that it is because of the time they spend together at the Burrow that Harry grows accustomed, and then attracted, to Ginny. His interractions with her over the last couple years lead up to it just as JKR wanted them to. Harry's subconscious ) know he's attracted to the scent because it is Ginny's scent before even Harry knows it knows it. We know this because Harry smells the scent in the Great Hall... thinking that someone got the scent from the classroom.... He still isn't quite making the connection to Ginny. I, for one, enjoyed reading how he got there. I also see no evidence that Amortentia is the love potion that Fred and George sell. It is the most potent love potion, yes, cleverly made this way because it acts on smell, our strongest memory evoking scent. It seems like the love potions that are ordered from Fred and George are ones that are ingested in food or drink, and probably not as powerful or long lasting. Otherwise, Romilda Vane would have just worn the perfume/potion, rather than put something into Gilly Water. Another thing I find very interesting is all the shipping for characters that you have to read deep into JKR's subtext to find. Although I think there ARE some things that JKR intends us not to know for sure... I have said before that I think there are definitely things JKR intends us to be undecided about... such as Is Snape ESE! or Good!, but relationships, which are in the background of the story, are meant to be as clear to us as they are to the Characters themselves. She has been building up to Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione for years. Many readers saw this in the books, even before JKR validated it in interviews. Those readers looking for an Emma like twist... If there's one to be found, I think we already GOT it. Harry spent around 2 years pining for Cho, and then fell for the girl who was just a Friend and his Best Mate's Sister at that... the girl who was always there. Mr. Knightly fell in love with his friend Emma even though she was pursuing other suitors. Although I don't believe Dean is secretly engaged to someone, Harry does definitely get jealous of the time Ginny spends with him, much like Mr. Knightly gets jealous of the time Emma spends with Frank. I don't think that we have to worry about other Emma like twists, such as Luna being similar to Harriet and falling for Harry... and if by some very slim chance it did, I think Harry would still find a way to let her down gently and stay with Ginny. But even this, what I think is the most probable of remote Emma correllations, is highly unlikely because Luna does not seem as concerned about finding love as Harriet is. Nor do I think Ginny has been offering advice to Luna, and I don't think Luna's the type to ask for it. The other only remotely likely Emma-like twist could be how we are led to believe that Mrs. Weasley wants Tonks for Bill or Harry believing that Tonks was in love with Sirius. Again, though, I think it's a stretch. Perhaps JKR aspires to have Emma like twists only in her MAIN plot, which does not have to do with specific ships. I think she's woven her story very well, in fact, but but perhaps people are confused because the main plot of Emma had to do with love relationships, so they take JKR's words to mean she is trying to have twists in her romantic ships, where I think they are meant to be twists in the relationships between Harry/Dumbledore/Snape/Lily/James/Petunia/ Sirius etc. All of this makes me wonder how and why people are able to see things and ships like H/Hr or H/L when they are clearly not what the author intended, and go not only against canon and the author's implied pointof view, but the point of view she has explicitly stated in interviews. That is, we are not meant to imagine ships between characters that she doesn't intend ships with. The one exception here is Tonks/Sirius/Remus... I think we are meant to follow Harry's train of though on that one. Anyway, it just seems rather dissatisfying to imagine the convoluted ships that the authorhas not intended, and I fear it makes some people miserable reading the books when there is so much more to enjoy! Because, as we know from the dementors, misery can breed. Marianne S - hoping that more people will enjoy the ships that are there (or just not care), and not be so bitter about the ships that were never meant to sail. From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 09:33:21 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:33:21 -0000 Subject: Hating someone Vs wanting them dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" wrote: Snip> I can't believe that he hates any of the > trio enough to want to see them dead and I think that he came to that > realization when He had his little chat with Dumbledore on the > tower... I think he came to the understanding that just because he > didn't agree with Dumbledore's ideas, or the general way in which the > school was run, did not give him reason enough to kill. He was still > thinking like a kid, but he got a rude awakening and had to grow up > real quick. It will be interesting to see how his character developes > after this, but I have a feeling that she is not going to go that far > ni depth about it. Sue here: I suspect he realised quite early that he might have bitten off more than he could chew. Don't forget, he was crying in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom for some time. I think, whatever happens, that he will be redeemed - he may not survive, but he won't go down snarling and sneering! It was pretty clear, from that scene on the roof, that he might just have let Dumbledore coax him back to the light if he'd had just a little longer, so - why *not* go into it in Book 7? :-) > > Laila From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 6 09:43:17 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 05:43:17 -0400 Subject: Hagrid's Magic Message-ID: <00a001c59a6b$466d3ef0$27c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136694 Morgan >>Also, until the end of CoS Hagrid was not officially allowed to do magic. Only after he was cleared of opening the Chamber was he able to do magic in the open. So, no, I don't think JKR is referring to him. CathyD now: Being just in the middle of a re-read of OotP, Hagrid is still *not* allowed to do magic in the open. He says so when he's telling the Trio about his trip to find the Giants. "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic an' we knew the Ministry'd be lookin' fer a reason ter run us in." (pg 377 Can Ed) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 6 09:41:35 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 05:41:35 -0400 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions Message-ID: <009c01c59a6b$0b183080$27c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136695 shgupta83said: >>He would be all to happy to have James out of the way, but I can imagine a scenario where he was greatly hurt by Lily's death, and therefore decided to join Dumbledore. Dumbledore may have known this, and it fits in nicely with his whole theory of love. He knew Snape loved Lily and would do anything to get back at Voldemort. CathyD now: Except Dumbledore says Snape "rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us." He was already on Dumbledore's side before the murders took place. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 09:49:33 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:49:33 -0000 Subject: Harry using AK curse?? (was: Snape as the Other) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > > I definitely agree that Harry will pave the way for Voldemort's > death/destruction, however, I can't *imagine* Harry actually committing > murder. (Even if Voldemort is a homicidal genocidal sociopath, it's > still murder unless a court convicts him, right?) Does anyone think > that Harry will be able to use an Avada Kedavra? I don't!! So my > question (one of many...) is how exactly to read "either must die at > the hand of the other." > > I know it's going to be Voldemort who dies. It can't be Harry, that > would be heinous beyond comprehension. What does this "hand of the > other" business mean? I've heard talk about Wormtail's new hand, but > that makes Wormtail the Other and that doesn't fit with the rest of the > prophecy. I also don't think "at the hand of" means "next to" or "by > the side of." Maybe it's figuarative? Harry destroys the Horcruxes > and then somebody else (my bet = Snape) actually performs the AK on > Voldemort? And the death is still by Harry's hand because he destroyed > the Horcruxes? Anyone, anyone?? I know the answers are in the books > SOMEWHERE!! > > Allie Sue now: Good question. Have we actually been told that it will be necessary for someone actually to finish off Voldemort when the last horcrux is gone, or will the now soul-less Dark Lord simply shrivel up and die? Or turn into a vegetable, like the victim of the Dementor's kiss? ;-) I'm thinking of all those Eastern European tales - um, Koschei the Deathless, who hid his heart outside his body to protect himself and then someone found and destroyed it and that was the end of him (I think that's how it went). Anyway, could Harry destroy him just by finding and wiping out all the horcruxes? Surely he's carrying at least one of those around, or we couldn't have a last,dramatic confrontation... In which case, maybe someone will indeed help Harry over the last hurdle, maybe toss him the horcrux as he lies writhing in Crucio agony or some such thing ? From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 09:49:42 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:49:42 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136697 Cindy wrote: >From an earlier post about Eileen Prince, I'm convinced that it was Snape's mama, the "real" Half Blood Prince, that wrote all the good stuff in the margins, giving Snape the edge in potions class. vmonte: Yeah, I think so too. :) Cindy: I think its also probable that she was Tom Riddle's peer and they had potions class together. He was a hottie, she was, well, normal. Think he could sway her into helping him figure out how horcruxes work? And then what? Broke her heart? Made her go after the first guy that would take her? Maybe told her son about it every chance she got and died very bitter...or maybe she's in the WW nursing home and someday Snape's gonna make Voldie do right by his mama? Oh well, what do you expect folks, its Friday. vmonte: I like the way you think. Cindy: In regard to Lily and Snape, I think its highly possible that Lily could have mended fences with Snape after James saved his life. She may have been the buffer between them and might have even been involved in helping to save Snape's life. Maybe Snape gave her some peeks at the old textbook to help her get her NEWTS to be a healer. It makes me gag, but she might have even flirted with him and called him her "half-blood Prince" Charming. Oh ugh and ugh. vmonte: I don't know. Although I do think that Voldemort was going to let Lily live, due to Snape's influence, I think it more likely that Snape was more interested in the knowledge he could acquire from her. I think we are going to find out that Lily was also writing her own spells/potions, and may have a book of her own. I bet that healing spell Snape cast on Draco is Lily's spell. Vivian Who believes that Harry fell for Ginny because of who Ginny is and not because of any love potion. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 09:57:03 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:57:03 -0000 Subject: Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136698 OOps I posted the response below and in all my rambling failed to make the explicit point that was supposed to answer wrexx's original question. So here's the actual summation that concludes my theory as to why Fawkes couldn't/didn't heal Voldemorts hand. Oops freudian slip there. Dumbledores Hand. My theory is that to destroy the ring Dumbledore unleashed a powerfully destructive spell, in a split second decision while his hand was still attached to the Ring Horcrux. It hd the unfortunate side effect of causing so much destruction to DD's hand that it was umm in technical terms. Dead. I believe this is why, to Harry at first glance, it looked "dead", because in in fact, it actually was. And hence why Fawkes healing tears were not able to restore it, because their powers do not extend to resurrection. Ok, so definitely, like DD said he paid a price *worth* 1/7 of Voldemorts soul. And a partial death, or even full death, seems to ring true of the sacrifice Voldemort would force upon his would-be conquerers if he could manage it, and a sacrifice that someone of Dumbledores immense nobility, and calibre would be able to make in exchange for the lives of the people he loves. That's all folks.. Valky Oh and the freudian slip, I left that there because I hypothesise that at the moment of it's death Dumbeldore's hand was effectively Voldemort's and fighting Dumbledore for the rest of his body. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wrexx1" wrote: > > > > Any speculation as to why DD, with his vast magical skill and the > > super healing powers of a phoenix nearby, left his burned hand in that > > condition? > > > > Wrexx > > > Valky: > > Yeah, I have Theory. Dumbledore sustained this injury trying to > destroy a Horcrux of Voldemort as we know, so starting there I think > that it can be pieced together like this: > > First we have the Diary Horcrux (Voldemort made at a very young age > becaue *even then* he was obseesed with cheating death) > - A Young Voldemort possesses the body of a young inexperienced > newling witch. Due to his charm and her lack of experience she offers > virtually no resistance for the most part. She kills all the Roosters > so that the Basilisk can be released, and the deadly Basilisk, > commanded by the young Voldemort is two things, a very nasty weapon > against Muggleborns *and* a bodyguard for him against other Wizardkind > (as he used it against Harry). > Later when Ginny does begin to resist, the young Voldemort *fights a > little harder* to stay alive, he forces her down to the Chamber of > Secrets to complete the process. By the time Harry gets to Ginny, she > is "blue and cold" like she was very near *death*. > > If we pinch a few fragments from that synopsis we can stitch up a > scenario for the ring. > > Lets assume that the Ring was endowed with similar powers to the Diary > which are: > > The Power to possess the Holder. > The inclination to fight against any resistance or attempt on the LV > life inside it. > An inbuilt, or access to a, bodyguard. > > Then we have: > > The Ring Horcrux (likely to have been created by an older stronger > Voldemort.) - Assuming the above were true, then we could say that > after Dumbledore passed the lesser protections on the ring in the > Gaunt House it followed through with it's greater protections: First > it tried to possess Dumbledore - Dumbledore most likely expected this > attack on him and was prepared to resist and held the spirit of > Voldemort at bay possibly in his hand where it had entered. Now the > Spirit then has an inclination to fight like it did with Ginny so it > exerts more force of Dumbledore, which DD again resists. Finally it > calls on it's Secret Weapon, like the Basilisk, and unleashes a > terrible curse on Dumbledore. DD rushes off to Snape who lifts the > curse (Snape might even have invented it) for him. But now the ring > must be destroyed. DD now, Like Harry with the Diary in the Chamber, > has just seconds to act bravely before Voldemorts defiant soul makes > it's next move to ensure its own survival. Without thinking twice > about it Dumbledore slams down the ring in front of him and in the > blink of an eye destroys it with a powerful magic, *while it's still > attached to his hand*! But as he said, a small price to pay for a > seventh of Voldemorts soul, don't you think? > > Valky From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 10:14:25 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 10:14:25 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_SHIP:_=93Emma=94,_Twists,_and_HBP?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136699 phoenixgod2000 wrote: In Harry/Ginny, the foreshadowing is outside the characters. Its something that is born out of literary convention. he saves Ginny from the dragon, just like the hero does in the stories, She beats Cho at quiddich therefore establishing herself as superior to his current love interest, she give him chocolate, which is a symbol of love or sex or something like that (have to ask the H/Gers about that one). Its' stuff that the reader might be able to divine based on having read other stories, but it isn't really born out of character interaction. Of course in HBP she gets into the H/G anvils, but it seems more sudden because there aren't five books of in character tension like there is between R/Hr. vmonte: I really don't think that there is enough time in book 7 for Emma- like love twists to be going on. I think that JKR answered a lot of questions in book 6 on purpose. And there is a big difference between the way Ron reacted when given love potion (which was more cartoon- minion-like), to the way Harry reacted when around Ginny. Ginny is a whole year younger than Harry. She has been described as being little in most of the books. It makes sense that Harry would start noticing her as a "woman" now that she is a little older, and probably curvier. Little sister just doesn't have the same sexual appeal as grown-up sister does--IMO. Vivian From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 6 10:14:36 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 06:14:36 -0400 Subject: What Dark Arts? Message-ID: <00a401c59a6f$a6277be0$27c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136700 > If Snape never created this curse, James would never learn it, right? > > > JMO of course. > > Alla. a_svirn >>Right. But then, since he took time to learn it and didn't hesitate to put it to use doesn't it mean that he "was into the dark arts" himself? CathyD now: If you read through that scene, James doesn't use Sectumsempra. He uses Levicorpus. Is Levicorpus Dark Arts? Hardly fits with what I think they would be. Sectumsempra does, though. It's interesting that the spells James and Sirius use are all fairly benign, more for humiliation than real hurt: Expelliarmus, Impedimenta (which we know is only temporary), Scourgify, Levicorpus, Petrificus Totalus. But Snape used a well controlled Sectumsempra, intended to inflict physical damage. It was always interesting to me that the Death Eaters, apart from the one who got Hermione with the purple slash, used fairly benign spells against the kids, as well. There *have* to be more potent spells around that Tarantallegra and Impedimenta. Only Bellatrix uses anything potent when she Crucio'd Neville. Whatever she used on Sirius (red light) wasn't Avada Kedavra. A sunner to the chest and he fell through the veil. Alla said: >>I am trying to figure out why Snape did not tell Dumbledore about that book of his, which Harry has and cannot find the answer except - Snape was saving his own skin. CathyD now: How do we know Snape didn't tell Dumbledore? I'm inclined to think Dumbledore does know...he knows pretty much everything that goes on with the school in general, and Harry, in particular. We're not privvy to Snape/Dumbledore conversations, for the most part, as this is Harry's POV. We mostly only hear other's conversations if Harry overhears them. Snape told the staff, and Pansy Parkinson told everyone else that would listen, what Harry'd done to Malfoy. Harry had already received his detention from Snape and tounge-lashing from McGonagall. Dumbledore isn't about to expel Harry for any reason, at this point, they were going Horcrux hunting. colebiancardi said: >>I also think that DD asked Snape to put that book in Slughorn's reserves, for Harry. As we know, Harry didn't expect to take advanced potions in his 6th year, as Snape only wanted Outstanding students. But since DD got Slughorn, he knew that Harry could get back into that class. He didn't tell Harry about what Slughorn was teaching deliberatly, IMHO, so that Harry would not buy the book and would be forced to get Snape's book. Cathy again That makes Puppetmaster!Dumbledore which I don't buy for a second. Ron also didn't buy the book and very easily could have gotten Snape's book instead of Harry. Unless you're saying Slug was in on the whole thing and gave Harry Snape's book intentionally....bragging him up as a potion-maker then only to pump up his ego and not because Slug actually thought Harry was good at potions? The problem is: Harry still isn't any good at potions...he can only follow a recipe if he has one, he still doesn't understand the theory, the "subtle science and exact art of potionmaking....the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensaring the senses." This, I think, is what Snape was trying to tell Harry at the end of HBP with his "Blocked again, and again, and again, until you learn to shut your mouth and block your mind, Potter." Not that Harry needs to learn Occlumency (he can't/won't, according to JKR) and Non-Verbal spells. Those things will not work, in Harry's case, against LV. Harry needs something else. Something Snape has tried to teach him for five years...even giving him extra homework to show where and why he went wrong in a potion. Time to clue in, Harry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 10:29:49 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 10:29:49 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: <00a401c59a6f$a6277be0$27c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136701 > CathyD: > If you read through that scene, James doesn't use Sectumsempra. He uses Levicorpus. Is Levicorpus Dark Arts? Hardly fits with what I think they would be. a_svirn: Which brings us back to the initial question: what do you suppose the dark arts would be? > CathyD: >Sectumsempra does, though. It's interesting that the spells James >and Sirius use are all fairly benign, more for humiliation than real >hurt a_svirn: Now this is simply priceless. So humiliation is fairly benign, is it? Frankly, I don't know how to comment... From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 10:35:45 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 10:35:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's wounded hand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136702 Has anyone else thought of the HBP book cover art that showed two hands in the grip of an Unbreakable Vow? IIRC, one was withered: at the time, speculation was that the owner of that hand was very old - but what if the artist meant it to be DD's hand? This would imply another Unbreakable Vow (though not supported by the text, and I don't see why the artist would have done that). Still, it's been weighing on my mind the last few days, and I wondered what you all might think. Lorel From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 10:54:09 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 10:54:09 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136703 >Elizabeth: >What's the difference between "stopping a criminal" using force >and "inducing romantic feelings" in the person I've promised to >remain monogamous with by using a potion? Both serve my better >interests. Both are without consent to the "victim". The only >difference I see is that the former keeps me alive and healthy while >the other keeps me healthy and feeling alive. a_svirn: Personally, I too don't see how it makes much of a difference. A criminal who would rape you may well feel alive and healthy afterwards. >Susan McGee: >The person who gave the love potion would not be a rapist unless they >engaged in sexual contact/intercourse with the person to whom they >gave the love potion...it's unethical, and it's wrong, but there's >another step to rape. a_svirn: And why do you think "the person who would give the love potion" would give it in the first place? To find out which smell you find attractive? From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 11:38:17 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:38:17 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136704 Alla: Hmm, Harry was definitely in danger of being seduced by Dark Arts in HBP, IMO. Just like Ginny was in CoS. Isn't it interesting that Snape could care less about it though? I am trying to figure out why Snape did not tell Dumbledore about that book of his, which Harry has and cannot find the answer except - Snape was saving his own skin. Again, speculating here. colebiancardi: Oh, I think Dumbledore knew a lot about Snape and what he was like at Hogwarts - I don't think that escaped his attention. and I also think that DD asked Snape to put that book in Slughorn's reserves, for Harry. As we know, Harry didn't expect to take advanced potions in his 6th year, as Snape only wanted Outstanding students. But since DD got Slughorn, he knew that Harry could get back into that class. He didn't tell Harry about what Slughorn was teaching deliberatly, IMHO, so that Harry would not buy the book and would be forced to get Snape's book. Since Snape was a DE, I don't think DD would have been shocked or surprised at his book, so the excuse that Snape didn't *want* DD to know about it is weak - but just my opinion. Valky: OOooH LOL I Love your puppetmaster!DD theory cole. Yeah I like it a lot. Although I like PM!DD and Magic Dishwasher long time fan, I be. In my own musing I add a slight twist that DD leaves some of it, somewhat, to calculated chance. I have a cross Puppetmaster/Statistician DD mostly. So In my mind DD will have definitely had some knowledge of Snapes potions book, and the genius within it, some deduced idea that it was in the possession of Slughorn, and since Slughorn is such a highly predictable fellow, had given a high probability to the chance of Ron or Harry managing to gain possession of Snapes book. And Why? Now here's some speculation on the canon. In OOtP Harry tells Lupin and Sirius about his encounter with Snapes worst Memory, and his huge loss of faith in his father that followed especially after Sirius and Lupin were against a wall as to how to help Harry understand deeper levels of the relationship with feeble words such as James hated Dark Arts and Snape Hexed him too etc. The Occlumency lessons ended prematurely and OOtP ended with Harry terribly confused about his relationship with SS and the meanings behind these infamous events (the prank, SWM, Lily and James love, Sirius and Snape's hate which seemed to eventually lead to Sirius death..etc). So DD considered his options and decided it would be wise to bring several variables together in his next moves. And, fate willing, Harry would have access to the kind of information that would help him in the long term to make his own mind up about Snape based on the truth. It's pretty apparent that the relationship between Sevvie and Harry has been considered rather important from the start by DD. Harry was made to endure years of Snapes ill feelings, and Snape likewise made to endure years of the very face that haunts the bitter recollections of worst memories. And in spite of these things Harry and Snape have been gathered together year after year.. Perhaps the reasons for this gently pressured relationship are a key thematic issues. We already know now that Snape overheard the prophecy. And we know that DD's reason for trusting him has *something* to do with Voldies Plan to go after Harry and his parents. Is there some natural law in the WW that obliges those that hear a prophecy to be active in fulfilling it. So far *all* the active listeners bar *one* (Aberforth) have been entirely instrumental in bringing the prophecy to fulfillment. Not unlike the prophecy heard in POA by Harry, which was machinated to fulfillment by several of Harry's own actions (Going after Sirius thereby revealing Peter, Sparing Peter's life, unfortunately enabling him to escape.) Are we to yet be told that Snape is an instrument of the Prophecy, and so it was imperative, and so very very important that Harry know the real Snape, and ironically after seeing him commit possibly the worst deed of his life, still feel some level of kinship toward him via the companionship throughout the year of his younger self captured in the HBP Potions book. Harry didn't take Newt divination, but Trelawney was adamant that he really should have done. Is it possible that on some obscure level she was right? Perhaps Luna will impart some jewel of wisdom about the fulfillment of a prophecy upon Harry later in the next year when she has begun her Newt lessons (If Hogwarts opens that is). Just some wild speculation and stuff really. Valky Who worked on introducing the Prophecy Instrument theory two years ago but never finished. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 11:46:11 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:46:11 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136705 Susan McGee wrote: "But in the HP universe, I don't think a love potion can actually be characterized as a rape drug...." Del replies: I think that's EXACTLY what they are. They have ALL the characteristics of the RL date rape drugs, except one: * They are undetectable once slipped into food or drink. * They are fast-acting. * They make the victim act in a promiscuous way. * They render the victim unable to assert themselves, to make appropriate decisions, to act as they would choose to act without the influence of the drug. The only difference is that RL victims often have little or no memories of what happened, so they are spared the additional humiliation of remembering how they "lost it". WW victims apparently do remember what happened (see the look of horror on Ron's face, and the vague explanations of Tom Riddle about having been duped). Susan McGee wrote: "Rape is a crime of violence, not sex. It involves forcing someone else to have sex, or sexual contact... It involves degrading, humiliating, and exerting power over the other person." Del replies: Ron was very much degraded and humiliated by Romilda's Love Potion, she very much exercised power over him. Same for Tom Riddle, who was degraded and humiliated by being forced to run off with "the tramp's daughter", and there's no denying that she exercised total control over him. They *did* have sex, something which would *never* have happened without the Love Potion. So there's NO doubt in my mind that in the case of the Riddles, the Love Potion was EXACTLY a rape drug. Susan McGee wrote: "The person who gave the love potion would not be a rapist unless they engaged in sexual contact/intercourse with the person to whom they gave the love potion...it's unethical, and it's wrong, but there's another step to rape." Del replies: I personally consider it as a mental rape. A physical rape is forcing someone to have sex with you. The Love Potion has the exact equivalent effect on someone's psyche: they force someone to be in love with you. I call that a rape, albeit a mental or emotional one. Del From smilingator81 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 12:16:44 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:16:44 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: > You are so right on this point [agreeing with Dave's post]. I've >been making it for a while and > some people go along with it, others block it out, and some get > cross. smilingator: I suppose I fall into the category of "blocking it out". I do understand the point that you and Dave are trying to make and I have mentioned this in previous posts. Because of the warnings from Hermione and McGonagall, I see that in the Potterverse, time traveling can change past events. However, from the series of events that took place the night Sirius escaped on Buckbeak, I have seen no canon evidence that anything was changed. I could assume that something was changed and in doing so, the time traveler created an alternate universe. But, again, I see no clues or hints or dialogue that there was another series of events other than what happened. >If Harry was saving someone else's life, ie if only Sirius > was there being attacked and Harry saves him with a Patronus, > then I think it's okay (for that particular section). I don't > understand why so many people can't see this very simple, but > very large, plot hole. You can't save yourself from being killed, if > the only reason you survive is because a 'post-death' you went > back! It makes my head spin that not only was it not dealt with by > an editor, but it also made it onto film! I do see how a large plot hole would be there if, as you said, the only reason you survive the attack is because a post-death you comes back in time. My question is, "Where is the canon evidence that Harry died?" Steve, I finally understand how there could be a paradox here. It depends on how one looks at time in general. For those in the Theory 1, alternate universe camp, they have a real issue with the way JKR wrote this story, so they think there is a paradox problem. It is kind of like the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" debate I had with myself when I watched "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" many many years ago. For Harry to go back in time he had to survive the dementor attack. But for Harry to survive the dementor attack, it required the use of his future self. So, which came first: Harry surviving (in which case someone else helped him) or Harry traveling from the future to save himself (in which case he had to come from an alternate universe since he had "died" in the former one before). But, in either case, I have not seen canon evidence that this occurred. Again, I ask for people in this camp please show me evidence from the story that something was changed. I doubt that this will ever be resolved, but I like the argument and considering all the different view points is excellent for me. smilingator -- (who is a relatively new physics teacher and thinks this type of discussion would be a great introduction to the subject time). From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 12:26:09 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:26:09 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136707 Jen wrote: > I don't know, I'm going to think on this one more. I'm tired now, > too! Need a few ibuprofen. > Jen Saraquel: My sympathies ;-) lots of work for not much result eh? Thanks for plodding through my post and giving it such a thorough response, I'm not altogether sure it deserved it. I liked your comments on DD confidence in himself and Harry, >Jen: Maybe it's supreme confidence in his abilities and the people >he surrounds himself with? Once DD got his promise from Harry, he >knows Harry won't break his word. That's not something Harry does. >And Dumbledore also trusts Harry's abilites to get them home--he's >proven himself over and over. And I truly belive Dumbledore expected >Severus would patch him up once he got back to Hogwarts because >that's what *Severus* does. He didn't account for the DE's at >Hogwarts in his plan, however. I think if anything, Dumbledore's >unwavering trust was at the heart of his belief they would make it >out alive. I think you might be right here, DD has had a somewhat cavalier attitude to the information he holds. He seems to have kept a lot of it to himself, never believing that he could snuff it and everything would be lost with him. I could see that in some ways this is his strength - he who dares wins, but it is also a strategic weakness of giant proportions as we now see. Harry does not know everything that DD knew, and now it is too late. So how about we just say the cave smells particularly fishy, but we just can't work out what species? I'm wondering if working on what's in the potion and what happens to DD when he takes it will help resolve some of the questions. But there are so many ifs and buts about that, it's going to take a while to put something together. Perhaps I'll become a shipper, it seems the grass over there is a lot more fertile. Saraquel From muellem at bc.edu Sat Aug 6 13:07:11 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:07:11 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: <00a401c59a6f$a6277be0$27c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136709 - > colebiancardi said: > >>I also think > that DD asked Snape to put that book in Slughorn's reserves, for > Harry. As we know, Harry didn't expect to take advanced potions in > his 6th year, as Snape only wanted Outstanding students. But since DD > got Slughorn, he knew that Harry could get back into that class. He > didn't tell Harry about what Slughorn was teaching deliberatly, IMHO, > so that Harry would not buy the book and would be forced to get > Snape's book. > > Cathy again > > That makes Puppetmaster!Dumbledore which I don't buy for a second. Ron also didn't buy the book and very easily could have gotten Snape's book instead of Harry. Unless you're saying Slug was in on the whole thing and gave Harry Snape's book intentionally....bragging him up as a potion-maker then only to pump up his ego and not because Slug actually thought Harry was good at potions? > I don't believe Slughorn was in on it. As far as the book finding its way into Harry's hands instead of Ron, well, this is a wizard world we are talking about - it could have been bewitched. Or maybe it didn't matter whose hands it got into - Ron, as a friend of Harry's, would have shared the secrets in the book with Harry and Ron is still a big player in book 7 - he will be helping Harry with the Horcruxes. but again, just my opinion. I don't believe in the Puppermaster!DD theory, but I DO believe that certain things DD has done (or not done) have been thought out throughly by DD. colebiancardi From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 13:16:01 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:16:01 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux...what if Voldemort is Harry's horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136710 Jen wrote: Harry is surrounded by people who are willing to die for him. He's been saved by his father, his mother, Sirius, and countless times, by Dumbledore (with the assistance of Fawkes). Voldemort could never dream of inspiring such love or loyalty like Harry does, without even trying! But most important is the blood. Voldemort literally weakened himself when he used Harry's blood for his re-birthing, once again underestimating its value. It's not Lily's love coursing through his veins that weakens him, it's taking the blood of one who is pure of heart, just as he did with the unicorn. He cursed himself. Like the brother-wand effect, or being unable to possess Harry, the taking of the blood will backfire on Voldemort. My guess is he will once again try to AK Harry, after the Horcruxes are gone, and the curse will again rebound, only this time killing him for good. Voldemort won't be able to kill the innocent person before him, not when that person's blood runs through his veins. vmonte responds: Nice post Jen. I agree that love and loyalty are key to Harry's power over Voldemort. "...neither can live while the other survives" Voldemort will not die until all of the horcruxes are destroyed. That is when he will become mortal. If Harry is the last V horcrux he is going to have to sacrifice himself first no?, unless he finds a method of removing the horcrux from inside himself first (or jumps through the veil with Voldemort). Do you think that Voldemort has inadvertantly created a horcrux of Harry inside himself? Maybe Harry is immortal too, for the moment. Wouldn't that mean that Harry could potentially die first, yet be reborn because his horcrux is inside Voldemort? Voldemort would have to then kill himself to make Harry mortal--in comes Snape... I have a feeling that soul-sucking via a dementor will be involved somehow. Can a dementor suck out a horcrux? Vivian From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 13:33:15 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:33:15 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <> Geoff: >> > (1) Back in the early post-HBP days(!), I wrote in message 132927: > > "Spinner's End. We still don't know where it is. But the ruined > chimney and the name of the road make me think of a Lancashire cotton > town ? I grew up in one. Workers in the mills were sometimes called > weavers or spinners. This chapter though, for me, was a real eye- > opener so early in the book." > Spinner's End is so well crafted. I loved JKR's description of the scene on pg 21 AE: "At last, Narcissa hurried up a street named Spinner's End, over which the towering mill chimney seemed to hover like a giant admonitory finger." Caution! Warning! Right from the start the tone was set. Now who is in more danger? Snape, Bella or Narcissa? Wormtail will be scurrying back with his information to LV so there's no question he knows about their disloyaty in making the vow together, no matter what the reason. Snape said LV wants him to kill Dumbledore in the end but wants Draco to die trying--so the fact that these three have circumvented the plan is ominous indeed. In fact, why didn't we see Bella at Hogwarts? The Queen of Mean, why wasn't she there? Has Voldemort "grounded" her because she went against her instincts and became Snape and Narcissa's Bonder--LV figured she would further interfere? I think the next scene we see concerning Snape will be LV sitting in judgment of their deeds, and Snape will escape his punishment within an inch of his life. I'm not sure the other three will be so lucky. But I am sure LV knew that the scene in Spinner's End was "bound" to happen, that's why he sent Wormtail to spy. Snape could have refused the vow and have remained in LV's good graces because "The Dark Lord's word is law". He could have made both women see that, but he chose to take the vow. Bella's reaction was a bit of a red herring I think...Snape didn't need her to believe in his loyalty since she has already fallen out of favor. Narcissa is no longer a player, since LV planned revenge on the Malfoys. Who cares what those two say or think? So if my line of reasoning is correct, why on earth would Snape take that vow? Even if he is ESE!Snape, taking the vow meant going against the Dark Lord's wishes. If he is Good!Snape, taking the vow meant he was going to have to kill Dumbledore (even if DD was weakened to the point of death, and Snape could envision using that to "prove" he was loyal to LV by killing DD, it's circular reasoning because Snape already proved disloyalty by taking the vow). I see only a lose-lose situation so obviously, there is something else going on. Snape isn't stupid--even if he turns out to be NewDarkLord!Snape, out for himself, taking the vow was an exceptionally stupid move and may cost him whatever his goal turns out to be--unless that's the point, if he wants all the power he now has the Queen of Mean and Narcissa on his side to help him topple LV. I doubt it though, between writing the quest of the horcruxes, adding in a whole new powerful villian to vanquish for Harry seems a stretch. (Although, I vaguely remember an interview with JKR where she said Book 7 was going to be as long as it needed to be, and perhaps it might be two volumes!) Cindy From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 13:35:51 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:35:51 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: >... If Harry was saving someone else's life, ie if only Sirius > was there being attacked and Harry saves him with a Patronus, > then I think it's okay (for that particular section). I don't > understand why so many people can't see this very simple, but > very large, plot hole. You can't save yourself from being killed, if > the only reason you survive is because a 'post-death' you went > back! It makes my head spin that not only was it not dealt with by > an editor, but it also made it onto film! I don't block it out, but it is fixed by a matter of perspective. The books are written as a recollection of what happened when Harry was school aged. They are written as though being told by someone who was told about the events after the fact by Harry. Most of the events are influenced by Harry's percention of what happens, with few exceptions (roughly one chapter per book). They are not really written as though we are there watching events unfold. Thus, the storry teller is telling us what Harry remembers of those events. Even if they happened differently the first time around, Harry's memory of them will always be influenced by what he knows of the resolution. Maybe someone else did save him the first time around (or maybe something else entirely happened), but due to his own influence on the past, He and Sirius were saved. And it is important that someone saved Sirius as well, because otherwise there would STILL be no reason to go back to save Sirius from the tower, because he wouldn't have been there, but dead beside the lake! Maybe H&H did or didn't change events of the past, but but whatever happened, Harry's recollection of what happened the first time must be a memory of the result. Any changes occur to his memory of the event as well as to the event itself. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 13:41:39 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:41:39 -0000 Subject: If Harry is NOT a Horcrux...what if Voldemort is Harry's horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136713 vmonte (me) from previous post: Do you think that Voldemort has inadvertantly created a horcrux of Harry inside himself? Maybe Harry is immortal too, for the moment. Wouldn't that mean that Harry could potentially die first, yet be reborn because his horcrux is inside Voldemort? Voldemort would have to then kill himself to make Harry mortal--in comes Snape... vmonte again: Could the "in essence divided" comment be about Harry? __________ What if Snape kills Voldemort when he becomes mortal (weeee Snape is good, Snape is gooood! He was always on DD's side!!!). But just when everyone thinks that Snape has redemeed himself, he turns to kill (the now mortal) Harry...but then Ginny steps in and wipes him out. This last section is a joke, don't attack me... :) Vivian From nickel313 at yahoo.com.au Sat Aug 6 12:28:54 2005 From: nickel313 at yahoo.com.au (nickel313) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:28:54 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily in potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136715 Cindy wrote: >From an earlier post about Eileen Prince, I'm convinced that it was Snape's mama, the "real" Half Blood Prince, that wrote all the good stuff in the margins, giving Snape the edge in potions class. Nickel: I don't think it was Snape's mum who made the changes to the potions. >From the chapter 'The Unbreakable Vow' (Slughorn speaking to Snape about Harry): 'You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, the Draught of Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first attempt. I don't think even you, Severus -' So, I assumed this meant that Snape didn't make a perfect Draught of Living Death on his first try. Harry just did exactly what was written in the book so, if Snape's mum had already made the alterations, Snape's first attempt would be as good as Harry's was. Nickel From bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 6 13:01:37 2005 From: bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca (bennetfan101) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:01:37 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136716 ---> a_svirn: > And why do you think "the person who would give the love potion" > would give it in the first place? To find out which smell you find > attractive? bennetfan101: We don't know for sure what Romilda Vane actually wanted to do once she had Harry under her spell; remember, she originally gave it to him for the purpose of getting asked to the Slug Party; I don't think this quite constitutes as rape, although it would not be consensual. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 13:52:38 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:52:38 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136717 Cindy wrote: So if my line of reasoning is correct, why on earth would Snape take that vow? Even if he is ESE!Snape, taking the vow meant going against the Dark Lord's wishes. If he is Good!Snape, taking the vow meant he was going to have to kill Dumbledore (even if DD was weakened to the point of death, and Snape could envision using that to "prove" he was loyal to LV by killing DD, it's circular reasoning because Snape already proved disloyalty by taking the vow)... vmonte: How was Snape disloyal to Voldemort again? I'm pretty sure that Draco's task was meant as a test for Snape. Voldemort was testing Snape. He wanted to see just how far Snape would go to make sure that his wishes would come true. Having Draco lose face with the DEs, who would see him as a coward, was Voldemort's revenge on Lucius's family. Vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 14:07:27 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:07:27 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136718 Jen and Saraquel discussed the strangeness of the goings on a the Cave in HBP. Saraquel said: So how about we just say the cave smells particularly fishy, but we just can't work out what species? Valky now: I too have considered the cave to be rather a bit fishy. I read the lists that Jen and Saraquel came up with for explanations of the unexplained matters about the locket, none of them felt quite right for me either so I thought I might offer up another one. Dumbledore had deduced he *might* be going to a place where a Horcrux had been already found. The reasons for this hypothesis are. 1. Most importantly - He took Harry. Now perhaps if at sometime DD had come across by some stroke of luck, something that tipped him off regarding a Horcrux having already been found. Say for example Mundungus sold the Locket to Aberforth and during one of DD's short drinks at Hogsmeade he recognised it.. Voila!! another Horcrux. So Dumbledore dedeuces the most liley place it is hidden and decides to *take Harry there* because at this moment. 2. He's not sending Harry on his crusade, yet. He's trying to teach him and inform him about the task at hand. 3. Aberforth presenting the Locket to him (or other such means of DD gathering the right information) presents a golden opportunity.. DD can now instruct Harry on Voldemorts "lesser protections", the cave defenses. Harry hasn't come across these before, he has experienced first hand what an actual horcrux is willing to use to defend itself, and proven himself up to the task, but actually acquiring the Horcrux from its hiding place presents a learning opportunity for Harry. So armed with an exceptional guess as to which Horcrux he is getting (Though he says "of course I may be entirely wrong about it..") DD takes Harry along for the ride. With a little luck Harry won't have to take on the full banana yet but it will be a measured taste of what lengths Voldemort will force his would be conquerer to go in order to vanquish him. 4. The fake locket may hold clues to the beginning of the trail of Horcruxes. Now I am not presuming that DD knew the locket contained a note addressed to Voldie with Reg's signature on it. But I am supposing that DD, somewhat aware that his time was running out, wanted to give Harry one last push in the right direction. So allowing for the chance that the fake locket might or might not bear a clue as to the location of the real locket, DD takes the opportunity to help Harry understand a new (hopefully the last) angle of Voldemorts magic, and, with luck, leave him with his instructions to his next step in the journey already in his hands. And clearly I am supposing that DD snatched the locket up so quickly at the cave because he always intended to keep from Harry that it was a fake until Harry was in a position to benefit from the clue. Naturally this whole theory hinges on all other things about the locket being as they seemed. Such as R.A.B being Reg, the fake locket being the one that they found etc. It also meshes nicely with the theory that DD knew something of the UV, and plenty about what Draco was up to, enough at least to imagine that he *might* be faced with his death when he returned to the castle. But, as revealed by the effects of the potion, DD would rather put himself in the line of fire than see suffering. So it also meshes very nicely with canon. Saraquel: I'm wondering if working on what's in the potion and what happens to DD when he takes it will help resolve some of the questions. But there are so many ifs and buts about that, it's going to take a while to put something together. Perhaps I'll become a shipper, it seems the grass over there is a lot more fertile. Valky : LOL but shipping is so limited. Dontcha just love all the wild reckless creative mayhem there is involved in plot prediction. I know I do. Cheers to you both for introducing a great discussion. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 14:11:33 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:11:33 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Killing (was Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > OOps I posted the response below and in all my rambling failed to make > the explicit point that was supposed to answer wrexx's original question. > > So here's the actual summation that concludes my theory as to why > Fawkes couldn't/didn't heal Voldemorts hand. Oops freudian slip there. > Dumbledores Hand. My theory is that to destroy the ring Dumbledore > unleashed a powerfully destructive spell, in a split second decision > while his hand was still attached to the Ring Horcrux. It hd the > unfortunate side effect of causing so much destruction to DD's hand > that it was umm in technical terms. Dead. > > I believe this is why, to Harry at first glance, it looked "dead", > because in in fact, it actually was. And hence why Fawkes healing > tears were not able to restore it, because their powers do not extend > to resurrection. > > Ok, so definitely, like DD said he paid a price *worth* 1/7 of > Voldemorts soul. And a partial death, or even full death, seems to > ring true of the sacrifice Voldemort would force upon his would-be > conquerers if he could manage it, and a sacrifice that someone of > Dumbledores immense nobility, and calibre would be able to make in > exchange for the lives of the people he loves. > > That's all folks.. > Valky So the "crux" of the matter here is that you are saying to destroy each Horcrux, there is going to have to be (or resulting in due to the wicked spells protecting each horcrux) a deadly sacrifice? I'd have to agree it certainly seems to be going in that direction... Basilisk's death: Used fang to destroy Diary (remember that line in COS where it states Harry picked up the fang, like he "meant to do it all along"--some kind of sixth sense about using the fang on the diary) "Death" of DD's hand: Ring destroyed--probably would have killed DD if he wasn't so skilled. Possible death of RAB: In an attempt to destroy the locket? Many hundreds of directions to go in with that theory...interesting! Cindy From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 14:27:07 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:27:07 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: <00a401c59a6f$a6277be0$27c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: CathyD: > It was always interesting to me that the Death Eaters, apart from the one who got Hermione with the purple slash, used fairly benign spells against the kids, as well. There *have* to be more potent spells around that Tarantallegra and Impedimenta. Only Bellatrix uses anything potent when she Crucio'd Neville. Whatever she used on Sirius (red light) wasn't Avada Kedavra. A sunner to the chest and he fell through the veil. Geoff: I fear I must disagree with your first statement above... 'A jet of light hit the nearest Death Eater; he fell backwards into a grandfather clock and knocked it over; the second Death Eater, however, had leap aside to avoid Harry's spell and was pointing his own wand at Hermione, who was crawling out from under the desk to get a better aim. "Avada -" Harry launched himself acoss the floor and grabbed the Death Eater around the knees, causing him to topple and his aim to go awry.' (OOTP "Beyond the Veil" p.696 UK edition) Not quite my definition of fairly benign..... From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 14:39:25 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:39:25 -0000 Subject: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136721 "allies426" wrote: > I can't *imagine* Harry actually > committing murder. Killing in war is not usually considered murder although a confirmed pacifist might disagree. Harry is not a pacifist. > it's still murder unless a court > convicts him, right? Wrong, it's only murder in the eyes of the law if a court convicts him. It's up to you to decide if it's murder in your own eyes. > Does anyone think that Harry will > be able to use an Avada Kedavra? > I don't!! I do. I think Harry will use Avada Kedavra on Snape and Voldemort, and I hope he will too. Harry is in a war and you can't get squeamish in a war, if you do the enemy will win and you will end up dead. In the real world millions of young men just as nice as Harry have been forced to face this harsh truth and for JKR to shy away from it would be cowardly. If JKR makes Harry get all warm and fuzzy when he confronts his enemies in the final big confrontation we all know is coming in book 7 it will be a dreadful book. And Avada Kedavra is not the only way to kill someone, although I certainly don't want Harry to kill Snape and Voldemort with love, I'd rather he disembowel them. Now that would be a colorful way to end the series! At any rate, if Harry is still alive at the end of book 7 (and I rather doubt he will be) he will have nightmares till the day he dies as well as a gnawing sense of guilt when he contemplates what he had to do in that war, most soldiers do. > What does this "hand of the other" > business mean? It means Harry will kill Voldemort or Voldemort will kill Harry or both will kill each other. The only thing we know for sure is that both can't live. Eggplant From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 14:50:18 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:50:18 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Killing (was Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136722 > > Ok, so definitely, like DD said he paid a price *worth* 1/7 of > > Voldemorts soul. And a partial death, or even full death, seems to > > ring true of the sacrifice Voldemort would force upon his would-be > > conquerers if he could manage it, and a sacrifice that someone of > > Dumbledores immense nobility, and calibre would be able to make in > > exchange for the lives of the people he loves. > > > > That's all folks.. > > Valky > Cindy: > So the "crux" of the matter here is that you are saying to destroy > each Horcrux, there is going to have to be (or resulting in due to > the wicked spells protecting each horcrux) a deadly sacrifice? Valky: Uhh yeah, I think so. If Voldie has anything to do with it LOL. I would say that it's virtually imperative that life will be forced to be given to destroy him. He certainly believes the threat of death is a most powerful weapon so I fully assume he'd use it to his utmost advantage. Cindy: > I'd have to agree it certainly seems to be going in that > direction... Valky: Yeah. I think the strongest canon argument to it is DD's comment about Toms style. Its repetitive essentially, but the magic is so great and terrible that the repeating versions of it are plenty formidable. Toms style DD which DD seems to pick admirably in the cave is: 1. Bloodletting - Weaken the Opponent 2. Two powerful wizards on the boat sinks it. - Filter out formidable Opponents 3. Virtually impossible to drink potion, weakens and incapacitates the drinker, certainly cannot be done alone - Reduce the numbers and strength of Opponents. 4. The Inferi - Have a cavalry of deadly servants By calculation these are formidable protections. The fact that they fail to recognise the key strengths of brave people such as DD and Harry who are capable of giving all of themselves to the task, is close to their only weakness. Seeing that DD can deduce so well *Tom's* Style, I think that it is within our grasp to likewise deduce Voldemorts style which to my reckoning would be (thanks to DD's clues): 1. Cruelty - The will to destroy anything that stands in his way - Hence an inclination for the Horcrux to viciously protect itself by wiping out the oppositions to its weapon (eg the Roosters in COS) 2. Secrecy - The Weapons and Bodyguards - Hence such as the Basilisk or the Ring Curse suddenly and unexpectedly striking the Horcrux Holder and other opposition. 3. Domination - The ability of the Horcux to possess anything it needs in order to live. And from what we've learned in Canon: Voldemort thinks there is nothing worse than death - Hence his all three of these styles of Voldemort ultimately are intended to protect the Horcrux upon the threat of death to anyone who tries to conquer it. Cindy: > Basilisk's death: Used fang to destroy Diary (remember that line in > COS where it states Harry picked up the fang, like he "meant to do > it all along"--some kind of sixth sense about using the fang on the > diary) > > "Death" of DD's hand: Ring destroyed--probably would have killed DD > if he wasn't so skilled. > > Possible death of RAB: In an attempt to destroy the locket? Valky: Oh yeah I never looked at it that way, and I am glad you did Cindy. Now you mention it, yes, there was a death in the Chamber which would explain to me why neither Ginny nor Harry had to die to destroy the Diary, which didn't sit well with me because I was almost sure that Voldemort would somehow force a death, no matter what. As for the possible death of R.A.B., now that *does* make a lot of sense Cindy, well thought out, I say. Voldie's locket would gladly kill anyone who tried to make it give up its treasure, that's its job. And checking down the list of Voldemorts style, DD had enough trouble with the first two protections so I imagine another wizard, after all we are lead to understand that DD is considerably talented, another wizard might not even survive the first one. (Regulus and Roosters) It doesn't bode well for Harry does it? Makes you wonder if perhaps he *should* be an unintentional Voldie Horcrux, and count his lucky stars that he is. Another case of Voldie giving Harry the tools for the job.. lol. > Cindy: > Many hundreds of directions to go in with that theory...interesting! > Gosh yes, thanks for the reply Cindy. Valky > From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sat Aug 6 15:06:37 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:06:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur Message-ID: <12f.62b0454c.30262bfd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136723 In a message dated 8/5/2005 11:34:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jmrazo at hotmail.com writes: Bias *against* men, not bias towards them. Hence the sourness over James being supposedly less brave. I've spent years defending Rowling to my fellow feminists. Why is the main character a boy? Why is Hermione such a goodie goodie? Why do mothers come off so stereotypical. It's comical to see that while some read the books and see a bias against women others see a bias against men. Human beings aren't perfect, neither are their relationships. Good characters and their relationships shouldn't be either. Otherwise the story would be boring. We don't know nearly enough about Harry's parents to jump to any conclusions. I wish we'd learned more about them in HBP, but I hope that information comes in the next book. Rowling doesn't preach in her books. She's never going to make everyone happy and thank goodness for the readers that she doesn't try. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 02:42:40 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 02:42:40 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks and RL experiences (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136724 guz earlier: > > I agree that she is not the same person she was in OotP. The > > events at the end of that book hit her very, very hard. Marianne: > How do we know this? Tonks appears to be her normal self at the > end of OoP when the group meets Harry at the train station, > complete with pink hair and a feisty addition to the warnings Moody > etal. give the Dursleys about not giving Harry a bad time. Not > that I'm saying that Tonks is not saddened by Sirius' death, but > her appearance/attitude at King's Cross is completely in line with > what we've seen of her throughout OoP. I'm not suggesting that she > wasn't upset over Sirius' death, but she seemed completely Tonks- > like at the station. (We have to assume she mourned Sirius, > because, like so many of these secondary stories, we are told about > it but do not witness the characters' actual behavior or hear their > words.) guz: I just reread the passage you're referring to in OotP. I agree-- both Tonks and Lupin (who has just lost his best friend in the world) are portrayed here as completely their normal selves. Lupin is even described as speaking "pleasantly". Tonks' hair is pink, and we are given absolutely no indication that anything is amiss with her magic abilities. Why? Well, we can speculate storywise (maybe she pulled herself together for 10 minutes for Harry's sake? Maybe she's in shock?), but the real reason, which is the exact same reason that Harry couldn't see the thestrals at the end of GoF, is that it's bad writing form to introduce new information in the final pages of a book. Especially, in the example of the station scene at the end of OotP, because that scene is not about how the various characters are dealing with Sirius' death. It's about how Harry is not alone. Marianne: > Actually, I found part of the red herring bit about Tonks a little > cheap, in the sense that part of the misdirection JKR threw at us > about her depression/attitude change was toted up to Sirius' > death, to the point where Harry wonders if she was in love with his > godfather. But, no, most of this seemingly was Remus-angst. It > bothered me that Harry seems to be the only person who has truly > mourned Sirius. And I find that sad. guz: Yeah, I do agree. As red herring plots go, Tonks is not a particularly effective one. I'm still not sure if we are supposed to interpret all her sadness as being caused by Remus-angst. For example, the scene where Harry finds her in Hogwarts and mentions Sirius and her eyes fill with tears. Was *that* about Remus? And I agree with you that it would have been nicer to hear someone besides Harry express grief for Sirius... for example: Remus. Oh well. Marianne: > I think the "they're children's books" is a non-starter. JKR has > said more than once that she's writing for herself, and not gearing > her story to please any particular segment of the book-buying > public. And it's always struck me as odd that the books can include > things like multiple murders, some of which happen on-screen, grave- > robbing, self-mutilation, lying, cheating, rule-breaking, violence, > stories of government corruption, but, that they would stop short > of even a hint of homosexuality, because that's just way too > controvesial. You may be perfectly right about that, guz, but, if > JKR is shying away from this because of controversy, then that's > really unfortunate. guz: This is an excellent point you bring up. Even if JKR says she's not writing for children, I think we can agree that the books are marketed towards children (and adults, too, but definitely children are a major market). Under the category of "adult themes" we have several subcategories, and there is a difference between "dark themes" and "controversial themes". All the things you mention: murders, grave-robbing, self-mutilation, lying, cheating, rule- breaking, violence, government corruption, are dark, but they are not controversial. I think it's safe to say most people think these are Bad Things. On the other hand, homosexuality and pre/non-marital sex are *extremely* controversial issues that people have very different, and very volatile opinions on. And while JKR does use her books to open up questions of moral ambiguity (for example, is lying okay if it's for the greater good), I don't think one of JKR's goals for her series is to explore controversial issues. Is that because of "the children"?-- I don't know, really. It would be a good question to ask the author. Should she/ could she/ would she? Again, I don't know. ***There is a footnote in relation to this at the end of my post. My real point in originally bring that up was that I was trying to argue that what Lupin and Tonks were discussing was not, "Will you go out on a date with me on Saturday?," but an actual committed relationship. Whether that implies marriage or not, it doesn't really matter. guz earlier: > > However, right after it says that Lupin is staring into the > > fire, we get the lyrics to Celestina's love song. That's not an > > accident. Marianne: > This speaks to how people interpret what they've read. If you are > one who has seen Remus/Sirius subtext in previous books, you'll > read this scene entirely differently than if you don't buy that > subtext. And, after the hospital scene, I have to believe that JKR > intended this as Remus thinking about Tonks. But, again, since she > apparently wanted to play this as a surprise twist in hooking up > R/T, it didn't really work for me. guz: Ah-- okay-- I see where you're coming from. I'll start by saying that I think we all agree that personal preferences and real life experiences affect how we interpret the books. I'll also say that I never read the books thinking that we were supposed to view Remus and Sirius as anything more than friends and fellow soldiers. And, I have absolutely no personal preference to see them having a romantic relationship. Now, having said that, if I put myself into the position of someone who has been thinking all along that Remus and Sirius have been having a romantic relationship, then I *would* find the Tonks romance subplot to be horrific and the hospital scene quite sickening. If Remus had been grieving more than just a friend, but the love of his life, I would interpret the hospital scene as people coercing him into getting over Sirius and his homosexuality and settle down with a nice girl. And that is just terrible. But I didn't interpret it that way. I have never interpreted Remus to be, either literally or metaphorically, a homosexual. I have always interpreted him to be a metaphor for someone who is HIV+ (a contagious, degenerative disease that causes many people to react with irrational fear and hatred). The metaphor is not perfect, I know: someone infected with HIV as a child would not live as long as Remus has, and I know in some werewolf legends, they are super-strong and immortal, but I don't think in JKR's universe they are. In my real life, I have experienced (through an HIV+ friend) the despair that comes of, "Who would ever love me? I'm contagious, I'm dying, and I'll leave heaps of medical bills when I go." It is heartbreaking. And this is why I find the Remus/Tonks relationship to be so, so beautiful. All of Remus's reasons are 100% true: Tonks *will* be opened up to danger, hatred and prejudice because of him, he *will* drain her bank account, and she *will* watch him get progressively sicker until he dies and leaves her a widow while she's relatively young. And because he cares for Tonks, he doesn't want to put her through that. And what she has been saying (a million times) is that he is worth the risk and the sacrifice. Now, am I projecting my personal experiences and preferences onto Remus and Tonks? No doubt. However, the idea of this plot is not new, nor unusual: the "love story between one HIV+ person and someone who is healthy" has been a major plotline in books, TV shows, and theater. And the story of "the love affair between the normal person and the doomed person" is a classic that has been around since the greek tragedies, so I don't think I'm projecting too much. guz earlier: > > The proof, for me, is that he has been talking about this "a > > million times". Really. If it was really that he "just wasn't > > interested," it would not have gone that far. Marianne: > I think he's simply not going to argue the "million times" with > Tonks. I think Lissa's point about is well taken. With whatever > Remus has been doing with the werewolves, it doesn't seem that > there has been a lot of time for him to spend with Tonks. I read > this "million times" thing as a subtle hint of her immaturity > compared to his. I'm not saying that she's acting like a kid or > that she is not an accomplished witch in her own right for her age > and what she has been doing. But I can't see that they've spent > all this time together. I see her falling into hyperbole because > she's been beating her hands bloody on this particular door, and he > keeps not giving her the answer she wants. guz: Yes, Remus and Tonks do not spend time together for most of HBP. In fact, when Harry first comes to the Burrow in August, Tonks is *already purposely avoiding Remus*-- she turns down Molly's invite to dinner with him. She avoids him at Christmas, too. She is not physically chasing him down. And, yes, the "million times" is hyperbole, and she is emotionally overwhelmed and at her wits' end in the hospital scene. She grabs Remus and tries to literally shake some sense into him. Some people interpret that as pathetic begging, I interpret that as her desperate attempt to make him believe her when she says she's willing to risk everything for him. I think it's a beautiful moment. Marianne: > Sure, she's having a tough year, but I don't know that we can boil > this down to who's having a harder time. guz: You're right, and I wasn't trying to. I was trying to respond to the arguement of "Why is Tonks laying all this crap on Remus when he's got so many other problems?" and trying to explain her extremely fragile emotional state. Marianne: > She's battling her family, but are they that important to her? Has > she had interactions with them, or has she been pretty much > separated from them all her life because her mother had the > temerity to marry the wrong kind of man? I'm not convinced Tonks > is suffering from family angst with regards to the actions of the > creepy side of the Black family. guz: You're right-- this is total speculation on my part. I find Tonks to be a fascinating character. One side of her extended family are Dark wizards and witches, and the other side are muggles. She is an auror- - an elite fighter whose job it is to hunt down Dark wizards. Does she feel any conflict, or has she completely detached herself like Sirius? We probably will never find out in canon. Marianne: > Tonks at least has a place in Wizard society. It's Remus' second > go-round fighting evil, and he can be pretty sure that no matter > what he does, however bravely he fights or however much effort, > strength and blood he sheds in this battle, no one will thank him > for it or even stop to consider that maybe werewolves are part of > humanity. guz: No one will? Tonks will! ;-) guz earlier: > > Nah, he's been giving Tonks Harry's "I'm a loner Dottie, a > > rebel..." speech. I don't think Lupin has any problems with being > > liked, it's being loved that's freaking him out. And I honestly > > think that until Tonks, Lupin had never considered that he could > > have a relationship with a "normal person" -- his words. Marianne: > Again, I'm not sure here. Remus thought he'd never have friends, > and he found three people who accepted him and undertook dangerous > magic to try to help him. Granted, there was probably an element of > danger and rebelliousness and "aren't we so clever to have figured > out this Animagus thing?" going on, but Remus knows that people > have accepted him before. guz: This is true-- however there's a big difference between those friendships and a romantic relationship. There are no real risks or sacrifices to being friends with Remus, as long as you stay away from him at full moon (or turn into an animal). There *are* risks and sacrifices to being Remus's life partner-- and he correctly points them out. Marianne: > On the other hand, Remus has also lost these three friends, so he > may very well be extremely hesitant to allow anyone else to get > that close to him again. guz: I agree-- I am sure this is going on. It's going on big time with Harry, too. Everyone he cares about dies on him. Marianne: > Yes, everyone in the hospital wing is not telling him to > be grateful, but they are certainly telling him to give it up and, > as Molly says, stop being ridiculous. So, he does have a roomful of > people who are essentially telling him that he's wrong. guz: I think we need to agree to disagree on this. Some people interpret this as Remus saying he is truly not interested in Tonks (for whatever reason: he's gay, he's still mourning Sirius, he's not attracted to her). I interpret this as him caring about Tonks but not wanting to burden her with the problems a relationship with him would bring. He says, "Tonks deserves someone young and whole." He says that he's less than whole. He believes himself less than human. Marianne: > And, just as an aside, I'm sure I'm just getting way too cynical in > my old age, but when McGonagall uttered that line about Dumbledore > would have been happy to know that there was a little more love in > the world, I absolutely cringed. I mean, it's a nice sentiment, > but somehow the delivery made me think "Is the guy from Hallmark in > the room taking notes?" guz: LOL! Yup-- there is a fine line between a classic and a cliche. "We need a little more love in the world" definitely toes that line. And I thought it was interesting that it's stern, no-nonsense McGonagall who says it. Ah well, I admit that I am a hopeless romantic. I'm probably the only one who was touched by the description of Filch and Madam Pince standing next to each other at the funeral. ***And as a footnote to the discussion of homosexuality represented by metaphor in the books, I think there is a strong arguement to be made that they are represented by vampires. Percy states that there are people who think that they should be "stamping out vampires" instead of worrying about cauldron standards, but the candy shop stocks candy just for them, and Slughorn invites one to his party. Just a thought. From shgupta83 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 02:59:58 2005 From: shgupta83 at yahoo.com (Shobhit Gupta) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050806025958.89309.qmail@web50910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136725 Jen Reese wrote: > I'm still puzzled how someone could locate the cave before > Dumbledore. There were only a handful of people who knew about the > existence of the cave, all presumed to be Muggles, except for > Voldemort and Dumbledore. Quite a few wizards knew Voldemort was > once the schoolboy Tom Riddle, including Dumbledore, Slughorn, > Lucius, Borgin (?) and a handful of DE's who apparently went to > school with Riddle. But only Dumbledore and Headmaster Dippet seem > to know that Tom Riddle was a half-blood raised in an orphanage. Allie responded: > It has been suggested (I can't remember who or when, sorry!) that > someone switched the locket before Voldemort placed it in the cave, > so that he was actually placing a phony. The obvious hole in the > theory being, "How could he not realize it was a fake?" I don't > know if I agree with it or not, but it's certainly an interesting > idea. I've also read somewhere, can't remember which post, that it could possibly be one of the kids Riddle tortured in the orphanage. One of the people he took to that cave was named Amy Benson (Im not 100% sure if thats her name, but I am pretty sure it is..sorry if I am wrong). This would somewhat fit the initials of R.A.B., obviously without the R. But it does make sense in that she would know precisely where the cave is located. shgupta From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 15:55:09 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:55:09 -0000 Subject: Bonder and Unbreakable Vow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136726 "Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow," he said quietly. "Perhaps your sister will consent to being our Bonder." Bellatrix's mouth fell open. Snape lowered himself so that he was kneeling opposite Narcissa. Beneath Bellatrix's astonished gaze, they grasped their right hands. (HBP, US pg.36) Upon my first reading, I assumed her astonishment was because she was convinced Snape was working for Dumbledore and was suprprised when he agreed to the unbreakable Vow. Now that I have re-read it a few times, I still think this is the primary reason for her astonishment. However, I began to wonder what role the Bonder plays in the vow. Are there any consequences to the Bonder if the vow is broken? Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 16:03:31 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:03:31 -0000 Subject: silly ( or not so silly) thoughts Page 503 and socks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" > wrote: > > > > Is it just my copy of HBP or does everyone have a Squiggle in their > > books on page 503 that looks suspciously like a man with a walrus-like > > moustache? My daughter pointed this out to me while we were reading... > > She also asked me if Harry's socks have some sort of "meaning" because > > in every book he hides something in his socks(Sneakoscope, Felix > > Felicis) and he freed Dobby with a Smelly old sock, there are many > > other references to Harry and his socks... I just looked at her and > > said "you might have something, I never thought of it before". Has > > anyone else noticed these things? > > > > Laila > > No sightings w/in the pages... > > But socks are huge... > > 1. They are the best gift Harry ever recieved from the Dursleys.. > > 2. Fake-Mad-Eye noticed the socks Dobby knitted for Harry. > > 3. They make excellent hiding places. > > 4. they make excellent storage devices. > > Doddie > (who wonders if one of the Horcruxes is hidden in a pair of Voldies old > socks that he left behind at Durmstrang...After all, Victor hasn't > visited us again...and is it really such a long stretch to wonder if > Voldie taught there?!?!?) No marking in my book. You might want to try your hand on ebay. Someone did sell a piece of toast that looked like it had Dumbledore's image on it! Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 16:32:12 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:32:12 -0000 Subject: Question about Inferi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136728 Dumbledore's response when Harry asked what are Inferi: "They are corpses," said Dumbledore calmly. "Dead bodies that have been bewitched to do a dark wizard's bidding. Inferi have not been seen for a long time, however, not since Voldemort was last powerful...He killed enough people to make an army of them, of course." So, are inferi controlled only by the wizard who killed them? Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 16:36:28 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:36:28 -0000 Subject: So, are there 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mil" wrote: > Fanofminerva wrote: > > > We know LV wanted to split his soul 7 times. The question I have > is this: Did he intend to have 7 horcruxes, with the part of his soul > > remaining in him being the 8th part of his soul? Or did he intend > to have 7 parts of his soul...6 in horcruxes and 1 in his body? > > > > If he was thwarted, does he have 5, 6, or 7 horcruxes? Of the > horcruxes, 2 have been destroyed (the diary and the ring - > > > > Mil: > > LV intended to have 6 horcruxes... having the 7th part of soul in > himself... > > Horcruxes: > 1. Diary -- Destroyed > 2. Ring -- Destroyed > 3. Locket -- Taken by RAB (most probably Regulus A. Black) > 4. Hufflepuff Cup -- Still missing > 5. Antique once owned by Griffindor or Ravenclaw -- Most probably > Ravenclaw's... Still missing > 6. Antique once owned by Griffindor or Ravenclaw or (as some seem to > believe) Harry himself or (as Dumbledore guessed) Nagini -- > Undetermined > > Dumbledore believes LV was to create his 6th horcrux the night he > intended to kill Harry, unsuccessful as it was, LV created his last > horcrux when killing the man in the Riddle House at the beginning of > GoF (I can't remember this poor man's name, sorry) and placing the > last part of his soul in Nagini, leaving him (LV) with only the 7th > part of his soul.... > > Hope this was helpful enough... > > BTW, has anyone yet discussed the possibility of Dumbledore being > right about Nagini?? > > Mil -- Who also gets a bit confused at times... So, according to your info, Harry has 4 horcruxes to go. And, yes, like you, I have wondered whether or not Dumbledore was right about Nagini. Thanks! From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 17:07:14 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:07:14 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136730 > >>hg: > > My question going in is this: When does Snape discover what > exactly he vowed to help Draco do (whom he vowed to help Draco > kill)? > > I have a feeling that he realizes it on the Tower, although > Dumbledore knew all along Draco's intended victim was him. > Betsy Hp: Hmmm. I have to disagree with this premise. I think Snape had a pretty good idea of what he was promising going into the Vow, and he certainy seemed to know *what* Draco was trying to do by the time of the Christmas party. Snape's issue, it seemed to me, was in trying to discover *how* Draco planned on killing Dumbledore. (It also seems strange that Dumbledore would know he was the intended victim, task Snape with keeping an eye on Draco, and yet *not* tell Snape what Draco's end goal was.) > >>Carol: > >It seems certain to me that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable > >Vow. > > > >>hg: > Agreed. And it could still be that Dumbledore knows what Snape > vowed to do without Snape knowing. Betsy Hp: Do you mean that Snape doesn't realize that Dumbledore knows that he's taken the Vow? Because if this was the case why would Dumbledore continue to trust Snape? That's a *huge* secret to be keeping. Plus, Dumbledore and Snape seemed to be working together to try and save Draco from Voldemort. I have a feeling that if the two men were working at cross purposes Dumbledore would be more eager for Harry's involvment. Instead he appears quite annoyed which suggests, to me anyway, that Dumbledore felt he had the matter quite in hand. Which further suggests to me that Dumbledore was getting complete updates from Snape. > >>Carol: > > > >Almost certainly Snape is following Dumbledore's orders in > >speaking to Draco, not acting on his own because of the vow. > > > >Now he is forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct > >action. > > > >>hg: > I agree that Dumbledore put him up to more direct action. But > can't it also be that he's trying to figure out (and quick) just > what he vowed to help with? Betsy Hp: I disagree that Snape is taking direct action only because he's been forced to by Dumbledore. For one thing, the conversation makes it apparent that Snape has been trying to approach Draco all term. Draco has been avoiding him. "So that is why you have been avoiding me all term? You have feared my interference?" (HBP scholastic p.323) We learn on the tower that Snape *cannot* force Draco to see him because he needs to appear to be helping Draco (detention could hardly be seen as helping) and because if it looks like Draco's efforts to kill Dumbledore have been discovered Voldemort will kill him. "I appreciate the difficulty of your position," said Dumbledore. "Why else do you think I have not confronted you before now? Because I knew that you would have been murdered if Lord Voldemort realized that I suspected you." (ibid p.591) So I *do* think Snape has tried to talk to Draco but he's had one hand tied behind his back. And Draco, who's had the foundations of his world view severely shaken I think, feels that he can trust no one and so is avoiding his favorite professor. After all, Snape is a part of the group that is holding his and his mother's life hostage. No, Snape does the best he can with the opportunity Filch has handed him. And I don't think he's doing it because Dumbledore forced him to. Nor do I think he's trying to figure out *what* Draco's doing. He's trying to figure out *how*. > >>Carol: > > > >Surely he could have pushed past Draco's easily detectable > >attempt at Occlumency, but he doesn't do it, either because he > >doesn't want to further alienate the already uncooperative Draco > >and arouse his suspicions that Snape is planning to tell > >Dumbledore what he found out, or because he is afraid that if he > >finds out what Draco is doing, he'll be forced by the vow to aid > >him. I think it's primarily the second reason. Betsy Hp: I have to disagree. Snape and Dumbledore would only be benefited by *more* information, IMO, not less. For one, they could make sure no other innocents are threatened. For another, they could better meet whatever plan Draco has come up with. And possibly, with Draco trusting Snape enough to work with him, they could work on turning Draco to the right side, as Dumbledore does up on the tower. And that, I think, is why Snape doesn't force his way into Draco's mind. I imagine he meant to enter undetected in the first place, and that frays Draco's trust in Snape even more. Draco is definitely a boy on the edge in this scene. He's already come close to killing someone (and isn't it interesting that he pretty much stops trying after this?). He's already realized that Voldemort is not the wonderful wizard he's been led to believe. I'm sure he feels that there's no one he can trust anymore. That even his favorite professor would climb over Draco's dead body to cement his place by Voldemort's side. Snape is trying to earn back Draco's trust and he cannot do it if he pushes his way into Draco's mind. > >>Carol: > > > >I think that what Snape doesn't want to do any more has nothing > >to do with teaching DADA or staying at Hogwarts. It has to do > >with continuing his futile efforts to deal with Draco. > > > >>hg: > > I am utterly convinced that you're right. "I don't want to be a > double agent anymore" doesn't make any sense, but "I don't want to > try to help/stop Draco" does. Each encounter with Draco must seem > perilously closer to one or both of them dying. > Betsy Hp: I think that both of you are underestimating Snape's feelings for Draco. I get the feeling that Snape really does care for him and hopes to prevent Draco from going down the same path he did in his youth. Snape is so gentle with Draco in the bathroom while he's healing him. And getting Draco to safety is his main concern after the attack on the tower. I also feel that the fear in Snape's face during the Christmas party when Draco is caught out after curfew is a fear for Draco, rather than a fear for himself. If Harry notices how terrible Draco looks I'm sure Snape notices too. I think Snape took the Vow *precisely* because it put him into a postion of playing protecter to Draco. Even when Draco refuses Snape's offer of help Snape is still there for him. He can use the Vow as an excuse, but why did he take it in the first place if he wasn't interested in keeping Draco as safe as possible. Of course, I do agree that Snape was not arguing about his role as double agent with Dumbledore. That would be an idiotic move, and Snape is certainly not an idiot. I think Snape was feeling the burden of the promise he'd made to obey Dumbledore completely (like the promise Dumbledore extracted from Harry) and was expressing an unwillingness to follow the plan and kill Dumbledore if it became necessary. Betsy Hp From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 17:17:23 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:17:23 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136731 > Susan McGee wrote: > Sure..if someone comes into your home, tries to rape you and you ijure them that's self defense. Of course... > > But in the HP universe, I don't think a love potion can actually be characterized as a rape drug.... > > Rape is a crime of violence, not sex. It involves forcing someone else to have sex, or sexual contact... It involves degrading, humiliating, and exerting power over the other person. > > If someone is given a love potion, they are indeed forced to be infatuated with the person who gives it to them...and that is wrong... but the person who receives the love potion will not automatically become a rapist....that would be a behavioral choice of acting on feelings of love/attraction/obsession and would depend on the character and choces of that person... > > The person who gave the love potion would not be a rapist unless they engaged in sexual contact/intercourse with the person to whom they gave the love potion...it's unethical, and it's wrong, but there's another step to rape. **Marcela now: Surely you haven't forgotten about Merope Gawn giving the love potion to Tom Riddle Sr, have you? Whatever you may want to think of and/or however you may want to call Merope's behaviour, Tom Sr. *had not* consented to love her. And what exactly did you think that the Vance girl wanted to do with Harry if she knew it'd only last for 24 hours? The least I can come up with is some rough snogging, x.x Marcela From bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 6 13:06:58 2005 From: bennetfan101 at yahoo.ca (bennetfan101) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:06:58 -0000 Subject: mothers in HP and a correction of my fathers post In-Reply-To: <20050804160939.19961.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136732 Susan McGee: > Augusta Longbottom, mother to either Frank or Alice Longbottom, > probably Frank. Juli: > She's Frank's mother, in OoP, at St Mungo's when Alice gives > Neville the gum wrapper, Augusta gives her daughter-in-law a > annoyed look or something... bennetfan101: I think Augusta told Harry and his friends that she was Frank's mother when she said "My son and his wife" in St. Mungo's in OotP. It was Neville who got the annoyed look. From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Aug 6 17:26:03 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:26:03 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136733 > > >Susan McGee: > >The person who gave the love potion would not be a rapist unless > they > >engaged in sexual contact/intercourse with the person to whom they > >gave the love potion...it's unethical, and it's wrong, but there's > >another step to rape. > > a_svirn: > And why do you think "the person who would give the love potion" > would give it in the first place? To find out which smell you find > attractive? So that the person would pay attention to them, take them to a party where you would earn the admiration of your friends for capturing the attention of the most admired boy in the school...again, not everyone who puts a love potion in someone's drink will then decide to force them into sex (for force it would be). Susan From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sat Aug 6 17:30:25 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:30:25 -0000 Subject: DD & Harry in the broom shed with Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136734 Just to humor me please, Re-read the scene where DD is talking to Harry in the broom shed at The Burrow. Ask yourself why he chooses this tiny space when he could have just as well talked with Harry walking up the path ? there was no one about. As you read imagine DD told Snape to meet him in the broom shed at The Burrow at a certain time in his animagus form, a spider. Now DD can accomplish several objectives, his time is limited these days. He can have his little chat with Harry but other than telling him to confide in his friends (which is characteristic of Harry anyway) I can't see that Harry is gaining much from this little chat. However, Snape has much to gain. He can see a different Harry than the arrogant student he thinks he knows. He can see a boy with many of his own experiences and what choices Harry has made. Snape can listen to the two and witness a boy who had a very unhappy childhood, a boy who has lost someone he loved (Sirus), a boy who vows to not shut himself up or crack up, a boy who is willing to trust and to love and a boy who is brave enough to face the possibility of death and if it comes " ..will take as many Death Eaters with me and LV too, if I can". He sees a humble, hurt, loyal and brave boy ? or at least it will give him something to think about. Let's pair this with the fact that maybe DD "arranged" for Harry to get the HBP's book so it might be possible to think of Snape as an ally. He did trust the book and had feelings for it. I doubt DD knew his plan would be so abruptly ended before he could bring the two together. Snape and Harry will never like each other but they will need one another in the days to come. Between the "Little Chat" in the broom shed and the HBP's potion's book ? they each had a chance to see the other in a different light ? now the choice is up to them. Is it easier to continue hating each other rather than to do what is right? Two reasons I think Snape was in that broom shed are: 1. Snape knew Harry had his invisibility cloak on him when they entered The Great Hall ? how? DD told Harry to keep with him at all times during the chat in the broom shed. 2. DD says that there are only two people in the whole world who know the whole prophecy and "they are standing in this smelling, spidery broom shed" ? Snape and DD. I still think that Harry does not know the whole thing ? I think that Harry was "destined" to be a dark wizard but his choices have made him just the opposite. If Harry believed that part of the prophecy then he might not have thought he had a choice just like he thinks he has no choice now but to face LV. Whatchaya think? JMHO -BG From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Aug 6 17:31:44 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:31:44 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Susan McGee wrote: > "But in the HP universe, I don't think a love potion can actually be > characterized as a rape drug...." > > Del replies: > I think that's EXACTLY what they are. They have ALL the > characteristics of the RL date rape drugs, except one: > > * They are undetectable once slipped into food or drink. > > * They are fast-acting. > > * They make the victim act in a promiscuous way. > > * They render the victim unable to assert themselves, to make > appropriate decisions, to act as they would choose to act without the > influence of the drug. > > The only difference is that RL victims often have little or no > memories of what happened, so they are spared the additional > humiliation of remembering how they "lost it". WW victims apparently > do remember what happened (see the look of horror on Ron's face, and > the vague explanations of Tom Riddle about having been duped). > > Susan McGee wrote: > "Rape is a crime of violence, not sex. It involves forcing someone > else to have sex, or sexual contact... It involves degrading, > humiliating, and exerting power over the other person." > > Del replies: > Ron was very much degraded and humiliated by Romilda's Love Potion, > she very much exercised power over him. > Ron may have been humiliated...but the act of rape is to force someon into SEX......until Romilda forces Ron into sex it's not rape... The PURPOSE of rape is not sexual gratification, it's humiliating, degrading and exerting power over the other person. A lot of rapists don't get erections, and many don't have orgasms. >> Susan McGee wrote: > "The person who gave the love potion would not be a rapist unless they > engaged in sexual contact/intercourse with the person to whom they > gave the love potion...it's unethical, and it's wrong, but there's > another step to rape." > > Del replies: > I personally consider it as a mental rape. A physical rape is forcing > someone to have sex with you. The Love Potion has the exact equivalent > effect on someone's psyche: they force someone to be in love with you. > I call that a rape, albeit a mental or emotional one. > > Del Well, I think in order to be clear there needs to be a distinction between mental or emotional "rape" and actually forcing someone to have sex. Mental or emotional anguish is terrible; it's not the same as being forced into sex. And I don't think a love potion is a rape drug --- there is no indication of anything more than kissing going on in HP (except for Bill and Fleur who are much older)...and there is no indication that anyone is coercing anyone else into sex. I think there's too much analogizing to our own situation where the rape drugs are used for just that -- rape..... in the HP universe, the victim WOULD remember their experiences and there would be hell to pay.... I think we'd just better agree to disagree on this... Susan McGee From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 17:32:38 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:32:38 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_SHIP:_=93Emma=94,_Twists,_and_HBP?= In-Reply-To: <20050806023832.84149.qmail@web32915.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136736 Anita Hillin wrote: > First off, I'm so happy Jane's made an appearance again! Lo these many posts ago, I did a quick and dirty comparison of the romance (if you can call it that) between James and Lily in "Snapes Worst Memory" to Elizabeth and Darcy in "Pride and Prejudice." Now, on to the first Austen I ever read... > > While I concede you've done an excellent job with your argument, I would suggest that we can also use "Emma" to follow the trajectory of Harry and Ginny. Emma takes Mr. Knightly for granted throughout much of the book, although she values his opinion and listens to him when she refuses to listen to anyone else. She only realizes her own feelings when she hears from Harriet Smith that she cares for Knightly and believes him to return the regard. JEALOUSY is what drops the scales from her eyes. Likewise, Harry values Ginny's friendship, and she's able to reach him when no one else can in OOP, but it's not until he's faced with the reality that she's kissing someone else that his jealousy is aroused and he realizes how he feels. > > You argue that Mr. Knightly thinks of Emma as a friend and no more prior to her interest in Frank Churchill, but I would argue that he has always loved her, but he was a bit diffident about telling her, given his relationship with the family and that he's had no signal that she returns his love. This would compare with Ginny's decision to step back, since she has no reason to believe Harry cares for her, and she'd rather be his friend than ruin their relationship by pressing the issue. > > Good authors purloin whatever works for them, and JKR couldn't steal from a better author, IMHO. Whether your take or mine proves to be the case, I think you're onto something with the comparison. **Marcela now: The only objection I find with your reasoning here is that you're equating Mr.Knightley with Ginny, when in reality and according to the way the first five books were written, Hermione is this person. Harry has confided in her more often than in Ginny (as a matter of fact Harry still has to confide in Ginny as of HBP!). Hermione was the one that stayed by his side for "better or worst", a la Mr.Knighley (Mr.K was the one whom made the calls whenever Emma misbehaved or was out of line). I don't honestly think that Ginny can be paralleled with Mr.Knightley. Marcela > From katarina.anna at gmx.net Sat Aug 6 15:58:22 2005 From: katarina.anna at gmx.net (anna_ktrn) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:58:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's Vow: Why? (Re: Snape: the Riddle...(and Spinner's End) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136737 Betsy Hp wrote: > My problem with that take on the situation is isn't Snape going > *against* Voldemort by taking the Vow? Everyone, Bellatrix > included, says that Draco is meant to take this task on *alone*. > Isn't Snape going around Voldemort in Vowing to help Draco? Anna: To me, the vow highlighted just how self-centered Snape is. Snape does not think of Draco, or Dumbledore, or Bellatrix. The entire dialogue is about "Here's how I won the Dark Lord's trust", and "Here's how I won Dumbledore's trust", "I know all about the task that Draco has been assigned", "The Dark Lord intended me to do it anyway". Snape believes that neither Harry Potter nor Albus Dumbledore but one Severus Snape is foremost in Voldemort's mind. Narcissa's request to make the Unbreakable Vow takes him by surprise (his blank expression), as do the stipulations of the Vow (his twitching hand, the moment of silence). He follows through because Bellatrix goades him. We know how easily he is goaded, especially when his courage is in question. Apparently, he also believes that, ultimately, Voldemort will be so pleased with Dumbledore's death that he will honour the killer, never mind who the killer was. What we have here is a Snape who seemingly manipulates the Black sisters as masterfully as any spy could hope for, only to end up with his own death warrant - unless he kills the one wizard his own master has ever feared. Snape's over-confidence is his ultimate downfall. Meanwhile, Narcissa Malfoy got what she came for: A way out for her son. > > >>Leslie41: > > He understands at that moment that he might have to kill > > Dumbledore. But I think he also understands that Dumbledore > > himself would have--at that moment--agreed and encouraged him to > > take the vow to accomplish just what the vow accomplishes. > > > Betsy Hp: > I think > that even if the Vow was taken mainly to give Snape room to keep > Draco safe (though I'm starting to rethink that theory) Dumbledore > would have been all for it. He's a big one for saving innocents, is > Dumbledore. Anna: I see no evidence that Dumbledore would have enouraged Snape, or anyone else, to bind himself irrevocably. He asks Harry for his word, before they venture into the cave. He does not bind Harry or otherwise removes Harry's free will. Dumbledore is the epitome of choice. Once Snape made the vow, he had no more choice than a house elf. I can not see Dumbledore encouraging anyone to do that. From ellwoodjp at cablespeed.com Sat Aug 6 17:12:25 2005 From: ellwoodjp at cablespeed.com (dustermom02) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:12:25 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Making - these theories are so interesting. In-Reply-To: <20050806023346.2899.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136738 Hi - this is my first post. I'm a happily married 35 yr old mom of 3. None of the three are old enough to discuss HP at the level I would like yet. I'm probably the only person hoping JRK takes a long time to write 7 b/c I'd love to go to a midnight bookstore party with my oldest when 7 comes out. My husband and friends are disgusted with me and my HP theories and have told me to pretty much stuff it - so here I am. I agree with Juli. Nobody says that the murder HAS To be significant to create an Horcrux. I also agree with a couple of the people for each horcrux. Ring: father, the diary: Myrtle - there were scorch marks outside Myrtle's bathroom in CoS (p154US). And in HBP, (p506US), DD is talking to harry about making the final horcrux with Harry's death he says, "After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill and old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux.) So we know he just has to "use" the snake to kill - which is the same with the basilisk in CoS. I'm assuming DD knows how to make a horcrux even though he never tells Harry. then Juli continues:(turned into Vapor, spent years and years in the forest in Albania, until Peter Pettigrew found him, gave him a wand) Not just any wand! - his own wand which we know b/c in GoF Harry's parents came out of it. (Which also leads to my theory that Peter was there in Godric's Hollow when Harry's parents were killed b/c he had the wand hidden somewhere all those years. But thats another thread.) But I think its important b/c Wormtail would know of the horcruxes b/c he was present when Nagini was made into one. But the rest of the horcruxes: The locket - do you think he could have made it killing Burkes? We never see him do we? Hepzibah tells Voldemort that Burke ripped off his mom in HBP (p437 US) when he bought it from her. I have absolutely no proof, its just a hunch. I was thinking the cup would be with Hepzibah's death b/c she was an actual descendant of Helga Hufflepuff. The something Ravenclaw (and I have to believe its Ravenclaw) I have no idea. And the last I think is Nagini- I've been thinking about this one a while and I think it is true too. We know Voldermort was in Nagini when he attacked Arthur b/c Harry WAS the snake. That would mean that 2/7ths of Voldermort was present in the snake and perhaps that was enough to make him realize that the link to Harry's mind existed. This is an assumption on my part that Voldemort could go in and out of horcruxes at will. But, on pg 474 OoP the Weasley's and Harry are taking a port key to Grimauld place and at instant they are leaving, "Dumbledore's clear blue gaze moved from the Portkey to Harry's face....There arose within Harry a hatred so powerful he felt, for that instant, that he would like nothing better than to strike -- to bite-- to sink his fangs into the man before him---" Doesn't that sound like the first time that Voldemort (still in Nagini), sees what Harry can see(Dumbledore who he hates), and realizes the link exists? And the response wasn't to punch him or do the AK curse on him - it was the reaction of an animal. And then that of course leads to the Occlumency lessons b/c Dumbledore realizes what he has seen too. So what do you think? Paula From lucy at luphen.co.uk Sat Aug 6 17:40:57 2005 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy and Stephen Dawson) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:40:57 -0000 Subject: Swimming Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136739 Silly question, but when did Harry learn to swim well enough to follow Dumbledore on a swim fully clothed through an icy sea?? :-) From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 15:05:35 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:05:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fred and George In-Reply-To: <1123257012.2661.21307.m27@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123257012.2661.21307.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd050806080533bac606@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136740 Lorel writes: > "- Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder," said Ron bitterly. "Fred and > George's. I'm going to be having a word with them about who they let > buy their products." > > I bet Ron won't be the only one having a word. Regardless of who > speaks to them, at some point it seems that someone will hold them at > least partially responsible for the events of that night. > Lisa responds: Isn't that akin, though, to holding a gun seller responsible for a murder? While they will likely be devastated that their product was used for a purpose with such a terrible outcome, I can't see how anyone could hold them responsible for any of the events at all. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sat Aug 6 17:45:26 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:45:26 -0000 Subject: Amelia Bones' death - a horcrux made? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136741 I've read the book twice but not until my CD came did it sink in that it is thought that LV murdered Amelia Bones himself. He has ever so many willing to kill for him but saves the important kills for himself. Did he make a horcrux with her death? If so that means he was not finshed or is not finished making his planned 7. I wonder as well if he is making 7 horcruxes or if he is splitting his soul into 7 pieces. DD thinks the latter so I'll have to trust him. Thoughts? BG From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 17:46:44 2005 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: ?Emma?, Twists, and HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050806174644.150.qmail@web30312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136742 templar1112002 wrote: [ruthless carnage on my own post, which may or may not bear repeating] > Good authors purloin whatever works for them, and JKR couldn't steal from a better author, IMHO. Whether your take or mine proves to be the case, I think you're onto something with the comparison. **Marcela now: The only objection I find with your reasoning here is that you're equating Mr.Knightley with Ginny, when in reality and according to the way the first five books were written, Hermione is this person. akh now: I would never argue that JRK has written Ginny to resemble Mr. Knightly or any character in Jane Austen, frankly (I'm tempted to toss in a little Elizabeth Bennet, but I'll refrain). I think if she's taken anything from "Emma" it's the plot point that a main character believes s/he understands his/her relationship with another character close to him/her, then discovers his/her true feelings through an incident involving another character. Hmm, that's a little arcane, but the point is that the actions mirror a plot point in Emma, but the characters don't. I agree with antoher poster that this plotline in Emma wouldn't withstand two books' worth of effort, so I'm suggesting the plot point was resolved within the covers of HBP. If so, Ginny's our gal. akh, who ought to be doing something with her Hermione-like hair, instead of posting --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From littleleah at handbag.com Sat Aug 6 17:46:35 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:46:35 -0000 Subject: RAB-why not just sign? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136743 The writer of the note in the locket has three things to communicate: that s/he has the horcrux and means to destroy it; that s/he wants Voldemort to know that it is the writer who has discovered the horcrux secret; that s/he will be dead before Voldemort discovers what has happened. That being so, there seems no good reason for the writer not to proudly sign their name, say 'Regulus Black'. If, on the other hand, s/he wants to protect family etc from revenge in due course, why give any clue to identity, such as initials? Is there a reason for the initials, other than Ms Rowling having a bit of fun with us? Are these initials which Voldemort will immediately recognise, rather than have to ponder 'er Regulus something Black?...something Amelia Bones'? The other place we have seen initials used instead of names is in the labelling of prophecies- could it be there is another prophecy out there concerning Voldemort and RAB? Leah From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Aug 6 17:51:27 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:51:27 EDT Subject: SHIP! Pince/Filch - Is JKR teasing us? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136744 Lots of people have taken notice of how JKR has paid attention to her fans particularly to the HBP -- and how she reads about our theories on forums, and loves to hear about the theories...the one about Snape being in the broomshed with Harry and DD at the Burrow (in the form of a spider -- his animagus)...will no doubt be one of her favorites. So I think she is teasing us -- poking gentle fun at the 'shippers among us So, we have the scene of Harry and Hermione in the Library with the Book (Advanced Potions Making) p. 307 - 308) --- anyone notice the Clue analogy here? They are confronted by Madam Pince (did she really appear this insane in prior books?)..and Harry and Hermione argue all the way back to the common room about whether Pince and Filch are secretly in love with one another....and then (on page 640) Madam Pince is standing besides Filch at the funeral! Ah ha! My 7 year old son just asked me what this post was about -- I said maybe Madam Pince is involved with Mr. Filch and he said "YCCHHH...." and walked out... Susan McGee _SusanGSMcGee at aol.com_ (mailto:SusanGSMcGee at aol.com) Are you over 40? Want to join Harry Potter for Grownups Over 40? If yes, email me off list [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 6 18:18:07 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:18:07 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136745 Saraquel: I'm wondering if working on what's in the potion and what happens to DD when he takes it will help resolve some of the questions. But there are so many ifs and buts about that, it's going to take a while to put something together. houyhnhnm: The potion, along with the spell protecting it (which defies even Dumbledore's knowledge of magic,) bothers me more than the location of the cave. If RAB (whoever that is) got to the cave first, are the potion and the charm the same ones Voldemort used when he placed the horcrux there originally. If so, how did RAB replace the potion after having drunk it? Or did RAB know how to break the charm (and then recast it)protecting the potion, and thus didn't have to drink it? S/he would have to be an extremely powerful witch or wizard. Or is the potion Dumbledore drinks a different potion altogether? I agree that Dumbledore has a remarkably cavalier attitude about drinking it. As for the effect, as someone else pointed out, it sounds like somebody getting crucio'd. It reminds me of Harry's visions when he is inside Voldemort's head, but I can't get any further than that. From sidney_luz at yahoo.es Sat Aug 6 15:06:50 2005 From: sidney_luz at yahoo.es (sidney_luz) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:06:50 -0000 Subject: Horcrux possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136746 sidney_luz: Well, whatever they are I think that at least one is in Hogwarts and it is in the room of requirement! I think that Harry was close to it or at least has seen it when he went to hide the potions book in the room of requirement. Have you seen the drawing at the beginning of the chapter when Harry hides the potions book? That chest looks exactly like the one Dumbledore put in flames in Voldemort's orphanage? Maybe that is the horcrux. Anyway what do you think? From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 18:41:29 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:41:29 -0000 Subject: Amelia Bones' death - a horcrux made? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > I've read the book twice but not until my CD came did it sink in that > it is thought that LV murdered Amelia Bones himself. He has ever so > many willing to kill for him but saves the important kills for > himself. Did he make a horcrux with her death? If so that means he > was not finshed or is not finished making his planned 7. I wonder as > well if he is making 7 horcruxes or if he is splitting his soul into 7 > pieces. DD thinks the latter so I'll have to trust him. > Thoughts? > BG Chys: I got that same impression but it didn't strike me until I had read it twice. Well, when has LV done things by half? 13 is a magic number as well. I haven't seen much of it in the HP books though, and I wonder why that is? Chys From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 6 18:42:09 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:42:09 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" > wrote: > >... If Harry was saving someone else's life, ie if only Sirius > > was there being attacked and Harry saves him with a Patronus, > > then I think it's okay (for that particular section). I don't > > understand why so many people can't see this very simple, but > > very large, plot hole. You can't save yourself from being killed, > if > > the only reason you survive is because a 'post-death' you went > > back! It makes my head spin that not only was it not dealt with by > > an editor, but it also made it onto film! > > I don't block it out, but it is fixed by a matter of perspective. > The books are written as a recollection of what happened when Harry > was school aged. They are written as though being told by someone > who was told about the events after the fact by Harry. Most of the > events are influenced by Harry's percention of what happens, with few > exceptions (roughly one chapter per book). > > They are not really written as though we are there watching events > unfold. Thus, the storry teller is telling us what Harry remembers > of those events. Even if they happened differently the first time > around, Harry's memory of them will always be influenced by what he > knows of the resolution. Maybe someone else did save him the first > time around (or maybe something else entirely happened), but due to > his own influence on the past, He and Sirius were saved. And it is > important that someone saved Sirius as well, because otherwise there > would STILL be no reason to go back to save Sirius from the tower, > because he wouldn't have been there, but dead beside the lake! > > Maybe H&H did or didn't change events of the past, but but whatever > happened, Harry's recollection of what happened the first time must > be a memory of the result. Any changes occur to his memory of the > event as well as to the event itself. Sandra writes: Hi there! JKR must love readers with that opinion - it excuses a complete howler of a plot-wreck! To simply step around events which cannot addup, by saying they're just memories being re-told is to excuse any number of gaping holes the author misses, I would say. It's just plain and simple - if Harry was subjected to a Dementor attack, he would suffer greatly asa result whether by death or serious trauma. Instead, he saves himself. Nay, nay and thrice nay! Even if you had a really good calculator, that would never add up. To give yet another example (how many is it going to take?) How about if Darth Vader and Obi Wan are having their duel in Star Wars 4 like they did, and just before Obi gets killed, Darth is thrown to one side by a mysterious Jedi Mind Trick from a mysterious person.. who turns out to be Obi Wan from 2 hours in the future who only got there because he survived the duel!! It doesn't work, it's a cock-up, an enormous oversight, a lack of clear thinking, a great big mistake, a twist too far, and a major loophole. Sandra From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 6 19:02:05 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:02:05 -0000 Subject: DD & Harry in the broom shed with Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136749 JMHO -BG: Two reasons I think Snape was in that broom shed are: 1. Snape knew Harry had his invisibility cloak on him when they entered The Great Hall ? how? DD told Harry to keep with him at all times during the chat in the broom shed. 2. DD says that there are only two people in the whole world who know the whole prophecy and "they are standing in this smelling, spidery broom shed" ? Snape and DD. I still think that Harry does not know the whole thing ? I think that Harry was "destined" to be a dark wizard but his choices have made him just the opposite. If Harry believed that part of the prophecy then he might not have thought he had a choice just like he thinks he has no choice now but to face LV. Whatchaya think? houyhnhnm: I like it, but I don't think it holds together. 1. "It was not until the glowing yellow light was ten feet away from them, and Harry pulled off his Invisibility Cloak so that he could be seen, that he recognized, with a rush of pure loathing, the uplit hooked nose and long, greasy black hair of Severus Snape." (HBP, Am., p. 159-160) 2. Harry *does* know the entire prophecy. He hears it directly from Trelawney in the pensieve.(OotP, Am., p. 841) I do agree the Snape's patronus is likely a spider (and the animal he would transform to were he an animagus), but the spider in the broom shed is probably just another spider in a series of books filled with spiders. I agree that Harry and Snape are going to have to reconcile. Harry is going to need Snape's knowledge of magic to defeat Voldemort. I suspect that what may make that possible is Harry's recognition, at some point, of the similarity between his feelings in the cave, when he is feeding Dumbledore the poison, and Snape's behavior on the tower and later on the grounds. There is also a slight suggestion that Harry is going to have to put his hatred of Snape aside, if only to keep it from getting in the way of his most important mission--the destruction of Voldemort. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 19:02:33 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:02:33 -0000 Subject: Swimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lucy and Stephen Dawson" wrote: > Silly question, but when did Harry learn to swim well enough to follow > Dumbledore on a swim fully clothed through an icy sea?? > > :-) Geoff: Probably at Little Whinging Junior School. Most UK First or Junior schools have swimming lessons timetabled into their curriculum and he might well have become a strong swimmer. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 19:05:28 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:05:28 -0000 Subject: Harry/PETER using AK curse?? (was: Snape as) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136751 Allie: I know it's going to be Voldemort who dies. It can't be Harry, that would be heinous beyond comprehension. What does this "hand of the other" business mean? I've heard talk about Wormtail's new hand, but that makes Wormtail the Other and that doesn't fit with the rest of the prophecy. I also don't think "at the hand of" means "next to" or "by the side of." Maybe it's figuarative? Harry destroys the Horcruxes and then somebody else (my bet = Snape) actually performs the AK on Voldemort? And the death is still by Harry's hand because he destroyed the Horcruxes? Anyone, anyone?? I know the answers are in the books SOMEWHERE!! Chys: What if Peter's life debt to Harry can be repaid by doing something that Harry demands of him, like... say, finishing off the Dark Lord? Chys From ellwoodjp at cablespeed.com Sat Aug 6 18:13:48 2005 From: ellwoodjp at cablespeed.com (dustermom02) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:13:48 -0000 Subject: silly ( or not so silly) thoughts Page 503 and socks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136752 Laila: > Is it just my copy of HBP or does everyone have a Squiggle in their > books on page 503 that looks suspciously like a man with a walrus-like > moustache? I don't either. U.S. regular version. And don't forget in SS/PS ch12 Harry asks Dumbledore what he sees in the mirror of Erised - "I? I see myself holding a pair of thick, woolen socks." I agree there's a lot on socks. They're very useful. (Cute idea horcrux in a sock!) Paula From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Sat Aug 6 19:20:34 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:20:34 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Making - these theories are so interesting. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136753 --- Paula ("dustermom02") wrote: > And in HBP, (p506US), DD is talking to harry about making > the final horcrux with Harry's death he says, "After an > interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill > an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him > to turn her into his last Horcrux." So we know he just > has to "use" the snake to kill - which is the same with > the basilisk in CoS. A minor point: Although Dumbledore refers to Voldemort "using" Nagini to kill Frank Bryce, the actual scene in GF makes it pretty clear that Voldemort killed him using the killing curse -- "And then the chair was facing Frank, and he saw what was sitting in it. His walking stick fell to the floor with a clatter. He opened his mouth and let out a scream. He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor." If that were not clear enough, Bryce's "ghost" also emerges from Voldemort's wand during the priori incantatem scene in chapter 34. I'm not sure why, in HBP, Dumbledore says Voldemort used Nagini to kill Bryce -- although if I recall correctly, Harry never tells him about the specifics of his dream about the murder, so Dumbledore may have surmised what happened to Frank (we know he is at least aware of the disappearance from the discussion after the Pensieve scene in GF). -- Matt From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 6 19:37:57 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:37:57 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136754 > vmonte: > How was Snape disloyal to Voldemort again? I'm pretty sure that > Draco's task was meant as a test for Snape. Voldemort was testing > Snape. He wanted to see just how far Snape would go to make sure that > his wishes would come true. Having Draco lose face with the DEs, who > would see him as a coward, was Voldemort's revenge on Lucius's family. houyhnhnm: I'd go even further than that. Voldemort set the trap in the house on Spinner's End himself, with Narcissa either a knowing accomplice or unknowing tool. Bellatrix, I'm sure, is completely out of the loop, just hoping to get herself back in by exposing Snape. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Aug 6 19:38:43 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:38:43 -0000 Subject: Spinning (was Re: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136755 > Tonks: > I wonder if there is any connection between the actually > place "Spinners End" and goats and socks and DD's brother and DD's > Mirror of Erised socks, and then Snape tossed in too. JKR has > certainly used a play on words for the location of Snape's house and > what Snape himself is (a spinner of lies, traps, webs, etc. And the > fact that his taking the vow is his *end*). Potioncat: Oh, I never made that connection in spite of this bit of coincidental information: In my crazy web surfing for folklore about spinning and spinners, I came upon a site that caters to home spinners. So not only were there links to fairy tales, yarn, patterns, etc., but a site for a sock making machine. One of the reasons we "spin a tale" is because women used to tell stories as they sat around spinning. And of course, after you spin, you weave. There's also the little ditty that I barely remember: Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. Now that bit of spinning does fit the chapter! On a side note, once upon a time, there were several threads that dicussed Snape has having a number of feminine images about him. Brewing potions/cauldron being seen as more of a witch's role than wizard's at least historically. Now we've added spinning to that image. No point here, just an observation. From andie1 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 6 19:50:26 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:50:26 -0000 Subject: Question about Inferi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > Dumbledore's response when Harry asked what are Inferi: > "They are corpses," said Dumbledore calmly. "Dead bodies that have > been bewitched to do a dark wizard's bidding. Inferi have not been > seen for a long time, however, not since Voldemort was last > powerful...He killed enough people to make an army of them, of course." > > So, are inferi controlled only by the wizard who killed them? > > Julie I believe he means that inferi are controlled by the wizard who bewitches them, not necessarily the one who kills them. Voldemort just happens to have an army of them because he killed so many people; I assume he collected the bodies to then bewitch and use as inferi. grindieloe From andie1 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 6 19:57:54 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:57:54 -0000 Subject: Swimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lucy and Stephen Dawson" > wrote: > > Silly question, but when did Harry learn to swim well enough to follow > > Dumbledore on a swim fully clothed through an icy sea?? > > > > :-) I thought of this also! I remembered Harry saying something about how a few laps around the Prefect's Bathroom Tub was fine, but he had never had lessons from the Dursleys. It does make you wonder a bit... > Geoff: > Probably at Little Whinging Junior School. Most UK First or Junior > schools have swimming lessons timetabled into their curriculum and he > might well have become a strong swimmer. I don't think this is true based on his fear of having to go into the lake during the 2nd task of the Triwizard Tournament and his mention of never having lessons. Things that make you go hmmmm... grindieloe :) From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Sat Aug 6 20:03:23 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (profuloth) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:03:23 -0000 Subject: Swimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136758 > Lucy and Stephen Dawson: > > Silly question, but when did Harry learn to swim well enough to follow > > Dumbledore on a swim fully clothed through an icy sea?? > > > > :-) > > Geoff: > Probably at Little Whinging Junior School. Most UK First or Junior > schools have swimming lessons timetabled into their curriculum and he > might well have become a strong swimmer. Problem here is that we know from GoF that Harry doesn't know how to swim very well. We learn that the Dursley's gave Dudley swimming lessons, but they didn't get any for Harry 'probably in hopes that Harry would drown some day' (or words to that affect). This comes out when he is trying to figure out how he will survice the second task (in the chapter after the Egg and the Eye IIRC). Maybe his gillyweed experience was all the swimming lessons he would ever need. Lucy is right, this is something that doesn't make sense. Perhaps Madam Hooch started teaching 5th years how to swim...doesn't seem like she has that much to do. She gives flying lessons to first years and refs quiditch matches, but what does she do with rest of the year. Surely she teaches some other class, but we just don't know what it is. Jason From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Sat Aug 6 20:24:26 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:24:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Remus/Tonks and RL experiences (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136759 I don't have a lot to add to this discussion, but hope you'll excuse my throwing in a couple of sidenotes without trying to respond to the whole thread. On the timeline -- I agree there's an odd discontinuity between the Tonks at King's Cross at the end of OP and the Tonks at the Burrow at the beginning of HBP, only a couple of weeks later. Perhaps this is another example of JKR not being terrific with dates and numbers; perhaps, as someone said on the thread, it was an effort not to overcomplicate the end of OP; perhaps the events of the battle took some time to sink in for Tonks; or perhaps JKR just hadn't yet conceptualized the Tonks storyline for HBP when she was writing OP. Conversely, I don't find it so incredible that Tonks and Lupin could have built up enough of a bond over the course of HBP to be talking about marriage (or at least partnership) by the scene at the end. They must see each other at times in their Phoenix endeavors (surely Lupin comes in to report on his dealings with the werewolves), and it is believable that they would have sought out some contact after going through the battle at the Ministry together and both losing a friend, in Sirius. (What is harder to believe: that Tonks is ready to commit to Lupin after 10 months of trying to get him to date her, or that two-and-a-half months after the Ministry battle Tonks is so affected by her feelings for Lupin that her Patronus has turned into a werewolf?) Finally, on a more trivial point, I'm pretty sure that Lupin is supposed to have gone back to the werewolves after Christmas: there is a subtle hint (that I only noticed on rereading) in the scene where Tonks runs into Harry outside the Room of Requirement, near the end of Chapter 21. Tonks says she is at Hogwarts to see Dumbledore, because she wants news about "what's going on" with rumors Tonks has heard about "people getting hurt." Harry thinks he understands and refers to stories in the Daily Prophet, but Tonks says the Prophet's behind the times -- i.e., her news hasn't been reported yet. (Harry then thinks that Tonks is crying over Sirius, but when he tries to commiserate she doesn't know what he's talking about.) Although Tonks leaves without telling Harry the rumors she has heard, we get a good hint as to what they might have been in the next chapter. Chapter 22 occurs a couple of weeks after Harry's meeting with Tonks , so it is reasonable to think the Prophet may have caught up with her news by now. Right after HRH get the note from Hagrid about Aragog dying, Rowling casually inserts a scene where the Montgomery sisters walk by looking unhappy. Harry and Ron don't know why, but Hermione does: she has heard that their brother was attacked by a werewolf and ultimately died from his wounds in St. Mungo's. She's also heard a rumor that they were attacked because their mother refused to help the Death Eaters. My reading is that Tonks had heard the same news about werewolf attack(s) before it was printed in the Prophet and had been worrying about Lupin's safety, particularly if the werewolves were showing more overt support for Voldemort. -- Matt On the timeline of Chapters 21 and 22, we know that Chapter 21 ends on the day of the Hogsmeade Apparition practice sessions, which appear to have been held sometime around the beginning of April (Harry observes when they are announced that he won't be 17 for another four months). Chapter 22 occurs on the day of the actual Apparition test, which we are told in Chapter 21 was scheduled for April 21. I think it's reasonable to say, therefore, that there is about a two-week gap between the end of Chapter 21 and the beginning of Chapter 22. -- M From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 20:30:01 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:30:01 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_SHIP:_=93Emma=94,_Twists,_and_HBP?= In-Reply-To: <20050806174644.150.qmail@web30312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136760 The following is a "snip" from a post of my own in a different thread, but I think it bears repeating here. For a REAL connection to Emma in a modern story, I suggest watching the movie Clueless. Marianne S: Those readers looking for an Emma like twist... If there's one to be found, I think we already GOT it. Harry spent around 2 years pining for Cho, and then fell for the girl who was just a Friend and his Best Mate's Sister at that... the girl who was always there. Mr. Knightly fell in love with his friend Emma even though she was pursuing other suitors. Although I don't believe Dean is secretly engaged to someone, Harry does definitely get jealous of the time Ginny spends with him, much like Mr. Knightly gets jealous of the time Emma spends with Frank. I don't think that we have to worry about other Emma like twists, such as Luna being similar to Harriet and falling for Harry... and if by some very slim chance it did, I think Harry would still find a way to let her down gently and stay with Ginny. But even this, what I think is the most probable of remote Emma correllations, is highly unlikely because Luna does not seem as concerned about finding love as Harriet is. Nor do I think Ginny has been offering advice to Luna, and I don't think Luna's the type to ask for it. The other only remotely likely Emma-like twist could be how we are led to believe that Mrs. Weasley wants Tonks for Bill or Harry believing that Tonks was in love with Sirius. Again, though, I think it's a stretch. Perhaps JKR aspires to have Emma like twists only in her MAIN plot, which does not have to do with specific ships. I think she's woven her story very well, in fact, but but perhaps people are confused because the main plot of Emma had to do with love relationships, so they take JKR's words to mean she is trying to have twists in her romantic ships, where I think they are meant to be twists in the relationships between Harry/Dumbledore/Snape/Lily/James/Petunia/ Sirius etc. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Sat Aug 6 20:35:57 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:35:57 -0000 Subject: RAB-why not just sign? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136761 --- Leah <"littleleahstill"> wrote: > The writer of the note in the locket has three things to > communicate: that s/he has the horcrux and means to > destroy it; that s/he wants Voldemort to know that it is > the writer who has discovered the horcrux secret; that > s/he will be dead before Voldemort discovers what has > happened. > > That being so, there seems no good reason for the writer > not to proudly sign [his or her] name, say 'Regulus Black'. > If, on the other hand, s/he wants to protect family etc > from revenge in due course, why give any clue to identity, > such as initials? > > Is there a reason for the initials, other than Ms Rowling > having a bit of fun with us? Are these initials which > Voldemort will immediately recognise ... ? I'd say yes; at least that was my line of thinking when I read the note. I took it as another clue (in addition to the use of the moniker "Dark Lord") that the writer was a Death Eater: Often people who work together address and sign communications with their initials, and this person clearly expected Voldemort to recognize his (or hers). -- Matt From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 20:38:40 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:38:40 -0000 Subject: Why does there have to be ralationship abuse and rape?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136762 I know everyone here is allowed to speak their minds and express their own oppinions, but I can't help feeling stick to my stomach when I hear certain things. Such as the possibility of Harry being abusive to Ginny while they dated. I am one of those people who suggested using your imagination to fill in the blanks in the H/G ship. Yet, I never thought anyone would go that far. I mean, this is HARRY we're talking about. If you can atually picture him treating someone he deeply cares about in such a way, then you're undermining, as well as underestimating his character. I've never seen him being insubordinate to anyone, let alone intetionally hurtful (that's excluding his behavior towards Malfoy, Snape, the Dursleys, etc). I also disagree with the "love potion=date-rape drug" theories I've been reading. I completely understand why a love potion would be considered to be the magical version of that drug, only I don't understand why it's being associated with 14 year-old kids in a book series that's never once had a dialogue about sex, or a mention of the word itself. Not to say that 14 year-olds don't think about sex, but this is a bit out of line. Rizza From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Sat Aug 6 20:50:03 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:50:03 -0000 Subject: Horcrux in Room of Requirement (was "Horcrux possibility") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136763 --- sidney_luz wrote: > I think that at least one [Horcrux] is in Hogwarts and > it is in the room of requirement! > > I think that Harry was close to it or at least has seen it > when he went to hide the potions book in the room of > requirement. I had the same thought, and I imagine Voldemort would have taken just as much pleasure as Malfoy in hiding a horcrux right under Dumbledore's nose. But then it occurred to me that when Voldemort saw all the other junk hidden in the room he might have thought it an unworthy place for such a sacred treasure. It's a good bet we're not shot of the room, anyway, since Harry likely will want to return to get the HBP book. -- Matt From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 21:19:52 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:19:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny is Mackenzie, JKR's Daughter - canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136764 Marianne S wrote: Those readers looking for an Emma like twist... If there's one to be found, I think we already GOT it. Harry spent around 2 years pining for Cho, and then fell for the girl who was just a Friend and his Best Mate's Sister at that... the girl who was always there. Mr. Knightly fell in love with his friend Emma even though she was pursuing other suitors. vmonte responds: I agree with Marianne, besides Ginny is based on JKR's daughter. HBP book dedication: To Mackenzie, my beautiful daughter. I dedicate her ink-and-paper twin. Ginny is meant to be a match for Harry, a girl worthy of Harry. And many of us see her that way, including JKR. Vivian From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 21:35:07 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:35:07 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136765 > >>Susan McGee: > >But in the HP universe, I don't think a love potion can actually be > >characterized as a rape drug.... > >>Del: > >I think that's EXACTLY what they are. They have ALL the > >characteristics of the RL date rape drugs... > >>Susan McGee: > Ron may have been humiliated...but the act of rape is to force > someon into SEX......until Romilda forces Ron into sex it's not > rape... The PURPOSE of rape is not sexual gratification, it's > humiliating, degrading and exerting power over the other person. A > lot of rapists don't get erections, and many don't have orgasms. Betsy Hp: I think you're overgeneralizing. In the case of date rape I think the rapist *does* often get off. And in the case of Ron and Romilda Vane, we already witnessed Ron hitting Harry so hard Harry staggered. "Ron's fist was drawn right back; his face was contorted with rage; he was about to strike again." (HBP scholastic p.393) What might have happened if Ron had run into Romilda? Would he have felt the need to *show* his love? Would he have listened when Romilda said no? And what if Harry had taken the potion? We know that Romilda quizzed Ginny about Harry's body, so I'm sure she would have been game for a bit more than innocent hand-holding. And while I doubt a third year would be interested in actual sex, would Harry, whose judgement would have been seriously compromised, known when it was time to pull back? And again, would he have listened when or if Romilda said no? (And honestly, would Harry not have felt horribly violated even if the only result of the potion was hand-holding and poetry spouting?) I think there was a definite reason love potions were not allowed in a school full of hormonal young witches and wizards. Fred and George, by smuggling the potions in against school policy became culpible, IMO, of any harm done by a student while under the influence. It was a serious lack of judgment on their part, and yet another example of their callous disregard for the safety of others. > >>Susan McGee: > > And I don't think a love potion is a rape drug --- there is no > indication of anything more than kissing going on in HP (except for > Bill and Fleur who are much older)...and there is no indication > that anyone is coercing anyone else into sex. > Betsy Hp: I wonder what Tom Riddle would say to that. Merope managed to get pregnant with his child, so I'm betting more than kissing went on while he was completely under her control. I would also point to the broken man Tom Riddle became after escaping Merope. He came home to his parents and never left. A far cry from the gallent young man escorting his lady friend through the country side. Betsy Hp From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 21:47:37 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:47:37 -0000 Subject: Why does there have to be ralationship abuse and rape?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136766 Rizza wrote: >>I also disagree with the "love potion=date-rape drug" theories I've been reading. I completely understand why a love potion would be considered to be the magical version of that drug, only I don't understand why it's being associated with 14 year-old kids in a book series that's never once had a dialogue about sex, or a mention of the word itself. Not to say that 14 year-olds don't think about sex, but this is a bit out of line.<< HunterGreen: Well, for one thing, the love potion was not only used against Harry (though it was Ron who ended up afflicted by it), but against Tom Riddle Sr.. What would you call the use of it in that situation? Dumbledore theorized she used it instead of imperious because it seemed "more romantic", the underlying conclusion being that it is on the same level as using the imperio spell on someone to get them to do what you want. Now if what you want is sex, which is what the potion did lead to in the Riddle situation, what would you call that? Its certainly not consensual. Romilda was probably just thinking of having Harry walk around arm-in- arm with her and perhaps kiss her, and not want it to go any further, but the casual use of something so powerful (as we saw when Ron used it), is rather frightening. Imagine how humiliating it would be for Harry when he came to his senses if he had actually ate one of those chocolates, especially if he had sat there making out with her in front of everyone (who would not necessarily know that he was not in his right mind). The love potion, in my mind, is a *very* serious potion to slip to someone, and in the hands of someone older or with less self-control (like Merope Gaunt) it would become a date-rape drug. -Rebecca / HunterGreen PS. There will always be certain threads that go through here that seem to be taking the text a little too far, if you don't like them you can skip the threads; this list is full of adults, so adult themes are built right in. From jenny.amparo at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 21:50:34 2005 From: jenny.amparo at gmail.com (Emfer) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:50:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9accd3db05080614506324fb55@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136767 On 8/6/05, houyhnhnm102 wrote: > Saraquel: > I'm wondering if working on what's in the potion and what happens to > DD when he takes it will help resolve some of the questions. But > there are so many ifs and buts about that, it's going to take a > while to put something together. > > houyhnhnm: > The potion, along with the spell protecting it (which defies even > Dumbledore's knowledge of magic,) bothers me more than the location of > the cave. > > If RAB (whoever that is) got to the cave first, are the potion and the > charm the same ones Voldemort used when he placed the horcrux there > originally. If so, how did RAB replace the potion after having drunk > it? Or did RAB know how to break the charm (and then recast > it)protecting the potion, and thus didn't have to drink it? S/he > would have to be an extremely powerful witch or wizard. Or is the > potion Dumbledore drinks a different potion altogether? I agree that > Dumbledore has a remarkably cavalier attitude about drinking it. As > for the effect, as someone else pointed out, it sounds like somebody > getting crucio'd. It reminds me of Harry's visions when he is inside > Voldemort's head, but I can't get any further than that. Emfer: What if this RAB managed to replace the horcrux before Voldemort brought it to the cave? I mean besides DD nobody else knows as far as we know what Voldemort did to become immortal. I wouldn't be surprised that it wasn't the first time DD payed a visite to the cave. > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 6 22:14:11 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:14:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny is Mackenzie, JKR's Daughter - canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136768 > vmonte said: > I agree with Marianne, besides Ginny is based on JKR's daughter. > > HBP book dedication: > > To Mackenzie, my beautiful daughter. I dedicate her ink-and-paper twin. JLV here: I just had to jump in to check that I have your meaning straight. You suggest that you think that "To Mackenzie, my beautiful daughter. I dedicate her ink-and-paper twin." means that Ginny is Mackenzie? I am very confused by this as I took the inscription to mean that the book was 'born' around the same time as Mackenzie. I fail to see what Ginny has to do with it. I really hope I'm making a crazy mistake here - it is very late where I am... JLV xx From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Aug 6 22:21:48 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:21:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny is Mackenzie, JKR's Daughter - canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > > vmonte said: > > I agree with Marianne, besides Ginny is based on JKR's daughter. > > > > HBP book dedication: > > > > To Mackenzie, my beautiful daughter. I dedicate her ink-and- paper > twin. > > JLV here: > I just had to jump in to check that I have your meaning straight. You > suggest that you think that "To Mackenzie, my beautiful daughter. I > dedicate her ink-and-paper twin." means that Ginny is Mackenzie? I am > very confused by this as I took the inscription to mean that the book > was 'born' around the same time as Mackenzie. I fail to see what Ginny > has to do with it. I really hope I'm making a crazy mistake here - it > is very late where I am... > > JLV xx JLV, you aren't the only one. I took her meaning to be the entire book and not any one particular character in it. I guess I could see how it could be taken that way, but it certainly wasn't my interpretation. phoenixgod2000 From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 22:21:52 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:21:52 -0000 Subject: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: (snip) <<>> That's part of the reason I don't think he will be the one to do the actual killing. The author loves Harry. This is a work of fiction, after all, she doesn't have to make him do the killing and have the nightmares if she doesn't want to. And she certainly doesn't have to kill him off. Allie From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 22:41:34 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:41:34 -0000 Subject: Why does there have to be ralationship abuse and rape?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Rizza wrote: > >>I also disagree with the "love potion=date-rape drug" theories I've > been reading. I completely understand why a love potion would be > considered to be the magical version of that drug, only I don't > understand why it's being associated with 14 year-old kids in a book > series that's never once had a dialogue about sex, or a mention of the > word itself. Not to say that 14 year-olds don't think about sex, but > this is a bit out of line.<< > > HunterGreen: > Well, for one thing, the love potion was not only used against Harry > (though it was Ron who ended up afflicted by it), but against Tom > Riddle Sr.. What would you call the use of it in that situation? > Dumbledore theorized she used it instead of imperious because it > seemed "more romantic", the underlying conclusion being that it is on > the same level as using the imperio spell on someone to get them to > do what you want. Now if what you want is sex, which is what the > potion did lead to in the Riddle situation, what would you call that? > Its certainly not consensual. > Nowme: I get that. My point is, when someone uses a rape drug on another person, they do intentionally for the sole purpose of sex and dominance. That's all there is to it. In the wizarding world, sex may be an end result, but that's not the main point of it. They see it as a way for someone suffering from unrequited love to gain that love, however unsubstantial it may be. As far as Merope and Riddle Sr. are concerned, I completely understand why it is rape, yet you have to take into account that Merope's train of thought was love. She spent her whole life not knowing how it felt to be loved, and believed she could achieve it from Riddle. Yes, they did end up having sex when he wasn't in is right state of mind, but didn't she STOP using the love potion on him? She realized it was the wrong way to go about things and thought they could have a mutual love without it. We all know how that turned out.. > -Rebecca / HunterGreen > PS. There will always be certain threads that go through here that > seem to be taking the text a little too far, if you don't like them > you can skip the threads; this list is full of adults, so adult > themes are built right in. Thanks for the advice, I'll keep it in mind... So what if this list is full of adults? Rape is a VERY serious and dangerous subject, and not one I, like most people don't take likely. It's one thing to discuss things that come right out of the text, but associating rape with the series makes my skin crawl. I don't think it's necessary. Rizza From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 22:52:24 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:52:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny is Mackenzie, JKR's Daughter - canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Marianne S wrote: > Those readers looking for an Emma like twist... If there's one > to be found, I think we already GOT it. Harry spent around 2 > years pining for Cho, and then fell for the girl who was just a > Friend and his Best Mate's Sister at that... the girl who was > always there. Mr. Knightly fell in love with his friend Emma even > though she was pursuing other suitors. > > vmonte responds: > I agree with Marianne, besides Ginny is based on JKR's daughter. > > HBP book dedication: > > To Mackenzie, my beautiful daughter. I dedicate her ink-and-paper twin. > > > Ginny is meant to be a match for Harry, a girl worthy of Harry. And > many of us see her that way, including JKR. > > Vivian More canon that JKR likes Ginny and considers her a great match for Harry: Leaky Cauldron HBP Interview JKR: I think so. I hope so. So you liked Harry/Ginny, did you, when it happened? ES: We've been waiting for this for years! JKR: Oh, I'm so glad. MA: Oh my gosh, that kiss! JKR: Yeah. ES: It actually materialized! JKR: It actually happened, I know! I felt a little bit like that. MA: Had you been trying to get them ? JKR: Well I always knew that that was going to happen, that they were going to come together and then part. ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can't figure out what Emerson actually said here.] JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt ? and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned ? initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in. One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up ? in "Phoenix," remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, `I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,' basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in "Prince," and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character. Vivian From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 23:04:02 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:04:02 -0000 Subject: Why does there have to be ralationship abuse and rape?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136773 Rizza wrote: "I know everyone here is allowed to speak their minds and express their own oppinions, but I can't help feeling stick to my stomach when I hear certain things. " Del replies: I grew up with a sick feeling in my stomach all the time. Rizza wrote: "Such as the possibility of Harry being abusive to Ginny while they dated. I am one of those people who suggested using your imagination to fill in the blanks in the H/G ship. Yet, I never thought anyone would go that far." Del replies: IOW, "use your imagination the way I want you to". Sorry, doesn't work like that. That's precisely why I wish JKR had TOLD us what was going on between Harry and Ginny: so I wouldn't have to use my imagination, or at least I would have guidelines to use it. Rizza wrote: "I mean, this is HARRY we're talking about. If you can atually picture him treating someone he deeply cares about in such a way, then you're undermining, as well as underestimating his character." Del replies: Both my abusers loved me, cared about me, and wanted the best for me... 99% of the time anyway. By the time I was 14, I had known for a long time that the most innocent-looking person can be a sexual predator. I have a child now, and I'm keeping my eyes open on *everybody* - including my own family. I know all those people pretty well, I know they all love my kid, they all care very deeply about him and they all want the best for him. But they are NOT above suspicion - NOBODY is. Not even me. Welcome to the dark world of sexual abuse. And no, there is no reason I shouldn't bring abuse into the HP mix: JKR did it first, when she wrote the story of Tom and Merope Riddle. Merope had the best intentions in the world, she really wanted to make her Tom happy, she was NOT trying to hurt him. But she did, she hurt both him and their child. Rizza wrote: "I also disagree with the "love potion=date-rape drug" theories I've been reading. I completely understand why a love potion would be considered to be the magical version of that drug, only I don't understand why it's being associated with 14 year-old kids in a book series that's never once had a dialogue about sex, or a mention of the word itself. Not to say that 14 year-olds don't think about sex, but this is a bit out of line. " Del replies: If the Love Potion had not been used as a rape drug, there would be no HP series, because there would be no Voldemort. So I don't see how we can dismiss the danger those Potions represent. So to answer yourr subject question: why does there have to be relationship abuse and rape? Because JKR made her whole series depend on precisely that. No relationship abuse and rape, no Voldemort, no Boy Who Lived. Del From has103 at soton.ac.uk Sat Aug 6 23:24:59 2005 From: has103 at soton.ac.uk (solskjaer_crazy) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:24:59 -0000 Subject: More about Snape's "failed" AK. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136774 This is a reply to something way back on the 23rd of July and that I wanted to deal with because it just kinda bugged me when I read it but it also adds something "new" I hope. smartone56441070 wrote: SNAPE'S AK ATTACK ON DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL. For evidence, I recall the deaths we have seen from AKs: Cedric, the three Riddles, the Riddle's gardener (GoF), and DD. I exclude the Potters and others because we don't have accurate after-the-fact accounts. In the first three cases, five deaths, all victims were completely unharmed. In fact, the Muggle police examined the Riddles and found nothing wrong with them. Cedric and the Gardener (whose name escapes me) instantly dropped dead. DD was blasted from the top of the Astronomy tower. Wait, excuse me? All the others were completely unharmed by the spell, except for the simple fact that they died, instantly. DD, on the other hand, recieved a massive trauma and was thrown outward, and then dropped to the ground. This leads me to believe that Snape was unable to form a proper AK spell, because he honestly did not want to. Since we know that unsuccessful spells usually only make a partial effect, think about the numerous Transfiguration classes, Snape did not have what was required to kill DD. We know that someone must hate and want to cause pain for a Crucio spell to work, and I believe that the other Unforgivables are similar in nature. One must want to control someone else entirely for Impervius to work, and for the victim to actually die for the AK. When fake!Moody encouraged the class to use AK spells on him, he said he expected no more than a nose bleed. Since Snape is much more powerful, and NEEDED DD to die (even if he didn't want it), he caused considerably more damage. phoenixgod2000 responded: I've heard this argument before and I don't buy it. I think you are overthinking things. Te bolt struck DD and he merely fell backwards once his body when limp. the muscles relaxed in death and his body just slipped. Occam's Razor. I reply: Well canon goes explicity against the idea that Dumbledore simply slipped over the wall as ontop of continually reminding us throughout the conversation with Draco that Dumbledore is sliding down the wall which is supporting him (which implies he would have to slide back UP and over the wall) it also explicitly says: HBP UK edition PG556: "He (harry) was forced to watch as Dumbledor was blasted into the air" So he didn't slip and we are explicitly told so. On top of this we do not actually know when Dumbledore died. Immediately before this quote it says: Same page: "A jet of green light hit Dumbeldore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him, silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch" etc So Harry is still frozen and unable to scream after the spell has hit Dumbeldore, this could of course be for one of two reasons: 1: Dumbeldore is not yet dead but by the time the DE's are out the door and Harry realises he is able to move again, he has hit the ground and is dead. or 2: The spell did work and Harry simply didn't realise he could move again. We know that Harry says that he realised Dumbledore was dead because he was able to move again but we don't actually know at which point he was able to move again, when the AK hit or when Dumbledore hit the ground. Either way it can't be denied that Dumbledore was blasted over the wall by something, whether by the AK (unlikely as pointed out by smartone56441070) or by a seperate silent spell by Snape or even by Dumbledore himself but certainly didn't just slip over it. Holly *Who at the end of HBP, after sitting on the fence for 5 books, was completely convinced that Snape was working for the good guys but is now edging very slowing back towards the fence and is hoping her seat hasn't been taken.* From has103 at soton.ac.uk Sat Aug 6 23:41:26 2005 From: has103 at soton.ac.uk (solskjaer_crazy) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:41:26 -0000 Subject: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136775 allies426 wrote: Does anyone think that Harry will be able to use an Avada Kedavra? I don't!! Eggplant said: I do. I think Harry will use Avada Kedavra on Snape and Voldemort, and I hope he will too. Harry is in a war and you can't get squeamish in a war, if you do the enemy will win and you will end up dead. In the real world millions of young men just as nice as Harry have been forced to face this harsh truth and for JKR to shy away from it would be cowardly. If JKR makes Harry get all warm and fuzzy when he confronts his enemies in the final big confrontation we all know is coming in book 7 it will be a dreadful book. And now me: I don't know if he will but I certainly hope he doesn't. Unfortunately I can't rememer the quote and I can't remember where it is (I think it's book 4 somewhere but I might be wrong) because I haven't read the books in ages and am currently starting my first read through after book 6 but isn't there a passage somewhere where someone (I think one of the Weasleys or fake Moody) talks about the Ministry authorising Aurors to use the unforgivables against people and that this is being a bad thing in there opinion, almost as though it brings them down to the level of the death eaters? I definitely remember it being said because it's mentioned that Moody never did use the unforgivables to bring people in and always bought them in honestly. So wouldn't Harry using AK on Snape or Voldemort be the same? Surely the point is that there are other ways for him to do what he needs to do and by using the unforgivables on them he makes himself no better than them since these spells are dark arts based on hate and anger and not on love and trust, I don't know about anyone else but every time Harry tries to use one of them I always get a really odd feeling that I can't quite pin point and find myself thinking "no harry, don't". Holly *Who feels she's now pushing her luck with keep stepping on people's toes and is going to shut up* From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 23:47:23 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:47:23 -0000 Subject: The books are not about rape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136777 Del wrote: IOW, "use your imagination the way I want you to". Sorry, doesn't work like that. That's precisely why I wish JKR had TOLD us what was going on between Harry and Ginny: so I wouldn't have to use my imagination, or at least I would have guidelines to use it. Rizza wrote: "I mean, this is HARRY we're talking about. If you can atually picture him treating someone he deeply cares about in such a way, then you're undermining, as well as underestimating his character." Del replied: Both my abusers loved me, cared about me, and wanted the best for me... 99% of the time anyway. By the time I was 14, I had known for a long time that the most innocent-looking person can be a sexual predator. I have a child now, and I'm keeping my eyes open on *everybody* - including my own family. I know all those people pretty well, I know they all love my kid, they all care very deeply about him and they all want the best for him. But they are NOT above suspicion - NOBODY is. Not even me. vmonte: Del, I'm sorry about what happened to you, but you need to step back a little. You and I know that Harry is not a sexual predator--at least I think you don't? The books are not about you, or me, or anyone else. And it's ok to feel upset because your ship did not come true. Everyone on this site has come up with theories that have turned out to be wrong, at least I did, and I think that's ok. But it also seems to me that JKR is a VERY moral person and that she is trying to teach children some great lessons in her books. Imagine a book that teaches children to value family, friendship, and to be brave in the face of danger; to have tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the best in people. There is no way that JKR would make Harry a rapist or an abuser. You're right that Merope should not have used Tom Riddle Sr. in the way that she did (and she paid for it didn't she?), but to accuse Harry? Come on? I understand that you feel like you didn't get enough of Harry-with- Ginny to make it real for you, but it's another thing to start inventing scenarios that are just not there. Vivian From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sat Aug 6 23:55:02 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:55:02 -0000 Subject: Why does there have to be ralationship abuse and rape?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Rizza wrote: > "I mean, this is HARRY we're talking about. If you can atually picture > him treating someone he deeply cares about in such a way, then you're > undermining, as well as underestimating his character." > > Del replies: > Both my abusers loved me, cared about me, and wanted the best for > me... 99% of the time anyway. > > By the time I was 14, I had known for a long time that the most > innocent-looking person can be a sexual predator. I have a child now, > and I'm keeping my eyes open on *everybody* - including my own family. > I know all those people pretty well, I know they all love my kid, they > all care very deeply about him and they all want the best for him. But > they are NOT above suspicion - NOBODY is. Not even me. Rizza replies: Most of my childhood was spent enduring every type of abuse you could think of, you name it I went through it, yes including sexual abuse. So I comprehend you perfectly well when you say anyone can be a predator, which means Harry could be, *IF* JKR had written him that way, but she didn't. It's not because he's still a teen, because if you're going to grow up to be an abusive adult, you can have abusive tendencies as early as your teenage years, sometimes even earlier. I can see you're determined to believe the worst because you've experienced the worst, and so think it's possible of anyone. I do think you could be more open-minded, and perhaps a little bit logical about this. I mean, it's one thing to have those implications about a minor character we hardly know, but we don't need to imply anything about Harry's character, especially something as big as this. We've had six years to get to know him and have been in and out of his mind more times than anyone can count. He's not an abusive person in the least. The end. Rizza From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Aug 7 00:03:34 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 00:03:34 -0000 Subject: Harry at the window Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136779 I find it interesting that when JKR is describing Harry asleep at the window (waiting for DD) she casts a ghostly sight. Harry's glasses are askew and at the end DD's glasses are askew (wouldn't they be more than a bit crooked if he had fallen from the tower to his death? HP's mouth is open, HP wipes blood from DD's mouth. HP looks paler than usual from the misty glow outside the window. His hand lays relaxed on the desk. I just wonder is she telling us DD can be "sleeping"? I mean no one actually saw him after he went limp and fell - no one saw him hit the ground. I knew for sure that DD was dead when I read the book, even on the re-read but now doubt is creeping in. Was she trying to tell us in the beginning - deep sleep can look like death? Sleeping Draught of the Living Dead - did DD have some on him just in case Snape needed to "kill" him for Draco? Hummmm - BG From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 00:08:49 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 00:08:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny (+ Emma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136780 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marianne S." wrote: > I think maybe people are making much too much out of the simple > truth of Harry and the Love Potion. > > To Harry, the POTION that smells like Ginny. He does not fall for > her because of this, but quite the opposite... he smells this > because he has already fallen for Ginny and doesn't realize it. Yeah, I agree with you. I doubt that H/G was born out of a love potion. As entertaining as Stalker!Ginny can be I doubt it will be a storyline. there are too many other more important things to go over. Of course now I have a great plotline for a post HBP fic so there ya go. > Another thing I find very interesting is all the shipping for > characters that you have to read deep into JKR's subtext to find. How is Harry experiencing a quiet, profound moment with Luna (something he had yet to experience with either Ginny or Hermione) searching the subtext for a ship? There is plenty of evidence to guess that H/L could be a ship that would sail. Even in HBP which was dominated by Harry's unrequited lust for Ginny, the only actual date we see him go on in the book is with Luna. What's that about? I don't think > that we have to worry about other Emma like twists, such as Luna > being similar to Harriet and falling for Harry... and if by some very > slim chance it did, I think Harry would still find a way to let her > down gently and stay with Ginny. But even this, what I think is > the most probable of remote Emma correllations, is highly unlikely > because Luna does not seem as concerned about finding love as > Harriet is. Nor do I think Ginny has been offering advice to Luna, > and I don't think Luna's the type to ask for it. See, thats where I think you're wrong. Luna wasn't in much of the book, but in practically every scene she was in her loneliness was palpable. When Harry asked her out as a friend to go to the slug party the change in her was amazing. Even beyond my H/L love, I think it would be a shame to leave such a character as Luna on such a lonely note. I might be thinking about the possiblity of Neville/Luna but JKR already sank that ship, so if she's going to pair up the main characters, she has to find someone for Luna. Just for the record, I also ship Ron/Luna, but thats more to keep the poor guy out of Hermione's clutches. > All of this makes me wonder how and why people are able to see > things and ships like H/Hr or H/L when they are clearly not what > the author intended, and go not only against canon and the author's > implied pointof view, but the point of view she has explicitly stated > in interviews. She didn't explicitly state her pov until after HBP was printed. I also don't think her intentions were clear at all--at least before HBP. If Ginny is supposed to be Harry's perfect girl, why did he have almost no scenes alone with her in the book? Why did he spend more time alone with Hermione comforting her? Why did he go out with Luna? In OOTP Harry notices Luna's appearence as much if not more than Ginny's and her comforting him after his godfather's death is at least as important as Ginny comforting him during the Christmas possession. Harry notices that Ginny flies well. He also notices the same thing about Luna when she flies with them to the DoM. Ginny is supposedly tough and magically powerful, but Luna is the last girl standing at during the DoM battle. No, I don't think H/G was *clear* at all. That is, we are not meant to imagine ships between > characters that she doesn't intend ships with. Well, thats the price of writing vaguely. she wanted to keep the pairings secret for a long time--that was the price she paid. She factionalized her fans. Anyway, it just seems rather dissatisfying to > imagine the convoluted ships that the authorhas not intended, and > I fear it makes some people miserable reading the books when there > is so much more to enjoy! I know I probably come across as a complainer, but I really did like the HBP outside of the ships. I thought DD was great, Harry was great, the Horcrux idea was very interesting (and dovetails neatly into a fic I was already writing) and the set up for the next book's treasure hunt is exciting. That having been said, me not liking the ships really does cut down on my enjoyment of the series. In the back of my head there is alway a little voice muttering, "but she's so annoying. Dump her harry!" I am a character driven reader, not a plot driven one. No matter how much I like the plot, if the characters or the relationships annoy me, I lose enjoyment. Of course the converse is also true. If I like the characters I will put up with pretty crappy plots just to see them interact with each other. JKR is a good enough writer that she makes me care enough about her characters to complain about them. There are plenty of stories out there I don't care enough about to complain about them (Ursula K. LeGuin I'm looking at you). There has only ever been one series so good I have literally nothing bad to say about it (A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. Read it. Know it. Love it). What's frustrating to me is that it wouldn't have taken all that much to get me on the HG love train. I became a H/L shipper after two scenes. Ginny is a character with a lot of potential but the way she is written and characterized drives me to froth at the mouth. It's just so *bad* in my view I can't help but hate her. The LI and ship of the main character needs to be done better than what was shown in my view. H/G in HBP was just hollow and boring. phoenixgod2000, who really is looking forward to the next book. Now if only Luna were to get involved... From peppermintpattie4 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 22:57:17 2005 From: peppermintpattie4 at yahoo.com (patricia bindrim) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050806225717.50645.qmail@web54107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136781 Ramya wrote: > So, what makes Harry's capacity to love so great or > any different > from others? I believe Harry is capable of great love because of all that he has been through. I also believe he has great inner strength with all that he has faced with since he has came to Hogswart. Patricia From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 19:10:56 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:10:56 -0500 Subject: Question about Inferi In-Reply-To: <1123354956.2250.98198.m26@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123354956.2250.98198.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05080612102686aa9b@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136782 Julie writes: > Dumbledore's response when Harry asked what are Inferi: > "They are corpses," said Dumbledore calmly. "Dead bodies that have > been bewitched to do a dark wizard's bidding. Inferi have not been > seen for a long time, however, not since Voldemort was last > powerful...He killed enough people to make an army of them, of course." > > So, are inferi controlled only by the wizard who killed them? Lisa responds: I think they can probably be controlled by any wizard powerful enough to raise them, i.e., one need not have been killed by a wizard to be used as an Inferi. I HATE the thought that JKR will have Voldemort use Harry's parents against him. :*0( Lisa/SassyMommyOfThree From djklaugh at comcast.net Sat Aug 6 18:51:24 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:51:24 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136783 Potioncat wrote: (Snip) I am trying to get the connections between spin (as in spider) spin > (as in thread) and spin (as in modern Muggle technology). I suddenly > realised that growing up in a town known for it's textile mills, I > assumed Spinner's End was located at a mill that did some sort of > spinning. I was thinking textiles, but on another site, it's been > suggested that the area would make metal line (rope). > > That's my way of not only seeing Spinner's End the chapter being > about the Unbreakable Vow, but also as the address of Snape's > childhood home. > > Any ideas out there? (Snip) There are, of course, multiple definitions of "Spinner" from many different areas... it can mean one who spins as in one who makes thread or yarn from wool, or one who is a teller of tales, or who is a Spin Doctor... one who puts a distinctive positive or negative emphasis to known facts(personally I think Snape is a master Spin Doctor!!). It also can mean a type of fishing lure (from Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary) "a lure, as a spoon bait, that revolves in the water in trolling and casting" (has a barbed hook hidden in the end of it-this from a fisherman friend). It is also a term from American football(same source) "spinner play-a play in which the player carrying the ball twirls about to deceive the other team as to where the player intends to hit the line" (Gee, does that fit Snape or what!)... it also has a specifically British meaning "Brit. - informal- a nightjar"... which is a small bird that catches insects on the fly with it's big mouth... also called a goatsucker. Spinner's END.... my inclination would be to go with the fishing lure definition ... with the UV being the barbed hook. Did Snape's hand twitch before the 3rd part of the UV --- "And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa, (Snape's hand twitched within hers but he did not draw away), will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" There was a moment of silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide. "I will," said Snape." (HBP, amer. HB edition, page 36/37) because he was worried that this part of the UV might conflict with other commitments... or was he "setting the hook"... giving a little yank to the line and capturing his prey by wedging the barb tightly... He now has Bellatrix, who only moments before distrusted him and thought LV had made a big mistake, believing he is indeed in LV's corner. And he has made a very powerful commitment to Narcissa... one that could kill him if he reneges on it. So she too believes he is LV's man all the way. I would imagine that between the two of them they would spread the word to other DEs who doubt Snape! Deb From leslie41 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 01:03:30 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:03:30 -0000 Subject: DD and free will ( was "Snape's Vow: Why?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anna_ktrn" wrote: > Anna: > I see no evidence that Dumbledore would have enouraged Snape, or > anyone else, to bind himself irrevocably. He asks Harry for his > word, before they venture into the cave. He does not bind Harry or > otherwise removes Harry's free will. Dumbledore is the epitome of > choice. Once Snape made the vow, he had no more choice than a > house elf. I can not see Dumbledore encouraging anyone to do that. Then why does Hagrid overhear Dumbledore telling Snape he has to do something Snape obviously does not want to do? Snape's "choice" at that moment (whatever that choice is) would be not to do it, but DD compels him, even though Snape makes it clear that he thinks DD is taking liberties unfairly with him. It's true that whatever it is Snape did apparently agree to do it, but he doesn't want to (which is why I believe AK they are discussing) Respecting someone else's "free will" also involves taking for granted that people sometimes change their minds. DD wants Snape to obey him, obviously. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. We don't even exactly know what DD was compelling Snape to do. I would guess that he had extremely good reasons. Whatever it is, however, DD wants it done and doesn't care that Snape is opposed to doing it. Snape also most certainly has more choice than a house elf. He can choose to ingnore the vow, if he wants to, and perhaps die himself. He doesn't do that, but whether he's keeping the vow for himself, for Draco, for Dumbledore, for Voldemort, for Narcissa, for the Order (etc.) we won't know for a couple of years. Leslie41 From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 01:08:36 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 02:08:36 +0100 Subject: Snape thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136785 Having read most of the other?s Snape theories, now I will contribute mine. I think that Snape was a gifted child when he was born, one with considerable talents. Unfortunately, that led him to become ambitious, hence his sorting into Slytherin. As a half-blood, he was builled by the others and became proud of it, calling himself the ?half-blood prince? because of it. He took pride in his ?low-born? origins, so to speak. A lot of children do this when they are bullied. One of the bullies was James Potter. Snape may or may not have invented the lifting spell ? did he show it off for someone?s approval? ? but it was used on him. Snape conceived a hatred of James and Sirus, not without reason. After Sirius tried to introduce him to Remus in wolf form, Snape must have believed that he had intended to kill him. Dumbledore was so lenient to them ? Sirius should have been expelled for that ? that Snape fell towards Voldemort. Perhaps because the dark lord might have known things that Snape wanted to know, or perhaps out of a desire for revenge. James was pro-Order, so Snape would not be. I speculate that Snape liked Lily, enough to not wish her any harm. Anyway, when the prediction was made, Snape saw it as an opportunity to get James killed. He told Voldemort, perhaps empathising that James had a child. James and his spawn (Harry) would be wiped from the Earth; lily would be allowed to live. (Speculation; did Voldemort swear an Unbreakable Oath with Snape for that? Was that why the spell bounced back?) After Lily died, Snape fled to Dumbledore and confessed. (While this does seem to contradict Dumbledore?s statement in GOF that Snape joined the Order before Voldemort fell, its possible that Snape fled AFTER telling Voldemort, but before Voldemort went to kill them.) Dumbledore saw the advantage ? and perhaps seeing that Snape was genuinely repentant ? that he arranged for Snape to become a teacher and positioned in such a place as to be useful to Voldemort. Years pass, and Harry comes to Hogwarts. He?s very like his father, so Snape hates him, but Dumbledore tells him to look after Harry, so he does. The bad chemistry between the two prevents Harry from seeing that. Snape?s knowledge of the Dark Arts makes him the only other teacher that can teach Harry to shield his mind, a bad outcome. I think that Dumbledore knew what Draco was sent to do, after his father was locked up. Snape may not have, but he had been tricked into taking the Unbreakable Oath. I suspect that DD might have been dying ever since he found the ring, and so he ordered Snape to prepare to kill him, if necessary, therefore placing him in the best possible position to help Harry in book 7. He didn?t confide that in McGonagall; but perhaps Hagrid knows. Snape?s rage at the killing is perhaps because he knows he has no choice, but to strike down the man who saved him from Askaban. That gives him the strength to cast AK. Thoughts? Chris Alternate History: http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 01:12:31 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:12:31 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave and let's start on the potion! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136786 Really glad you've come on board the leaky fishing boat, Valky! >Valky wrote: >I too have considered the cave to be rather a bit fishy. I read the >lists that Jen and Saraquel came up with for explanations of the >unexplained matters about the locket, none of them felt quite right >for me either so I thought I might offer up another one. >Dumbledore had deduced he *might* be going to a place where a Horcrux >had been already found. Saraquel Yes, this would fit with the DD uses the cave as training theory which I feel is a good one. >Valky >Say for example Mundungus sold the Locket to Aberforth and during one >of DD's shortdrinks at Hogsmeade he recognised it.. Voila!! another >Horcrux. Aberforth presenting the Locket to him (or other such >means of DD gathering the right information) Yes, we agree about Aberforth having the locket and depending on whether Aberforth is ESE! ESG! or even ESI! (ignorant - of the significance of it) DD may or may not have acquired it prior to going to the cave. I'm not at all sure that Mung was just fencing stolen property in Hogsmeade. Either Sirius or Lupin (thanks to whoever reminded me of this in a post not long ago) said Mung was banned from the Hogs Head, so why is he meeting Aberforth in such a matey way. Unless of course, it's not Aberforth who banned Mung, but the mysterious owner of the pub ? whoever that is. I think there is more to Aberforth having the locket than just him happening to acquire it as a piece of stolen property ? but I might be wrong ? no, surely not :-) Did DD find out about the locket in Grimauld Place? Perhaps he sensed Voldemort's "touch"/soul. I suspect that Kreacher snaffled the locket away in his little nest, in which case it was in the kitchen where all the meetings were held, and close enough for DD to pick up its characteristic `radio signals'. Although, if that had been the case, why didn't DD just take it himself ? why instruct Mung to get it and give it to Aberforth? I have toyed for some time with the scenario that DD asked Mung to get the locket and give it to Aberforth, but I can't seem to work out a good enough story to go behind it. Now the scenario where DD just saw the locket at the Hogs Head. I don't think in a million years that he would have just left it in Aberforth's possession if he had recognised it as a Horcrux. He would have got that locket and he would have tried to destroy it as soon as he could. >Valky wrote: >DD can now instruct Harry on Voldemorts "lesser protections", the cave >defenses. Harry hasn't come across these before, he has experienced >first hand what an actual horcrux is willing to use to defend itself, >and proven himself up to the task, but actually acquiring the Horcrux >from its hiding place presents a learning opportunity for Harry. So >armed with an exceptional guess as to which Horcrux he is getting >(Though he says "of course I may be entirely wrong about it..") DD >takes Harry along for the ride. Saraquel: I do get your point about DD wanting to make this as real a training exercise as possible, so that would explain not telling Harry before they go that he either has possession of the Horcrux!locket or that he has destroyed it. But when they get back and the Dark Mark is over the tower and DD knows that there is a real possibility of his death (which there is whether you believe DD knew about the UV or not, DEs in the school mean possible murder) why does he not tell Harry the status of the real Horcrux!Locket and where it is? He does have time, and it seems some renewed energy ? when they are flying up to the tower. It is also of life and death importance (and mission critical, Batman) for Harry to know whether the Horcrux is active or destroyed and its whereabouts. Harry having this bit of knowledge is more important than whether DD lives or dies and DD knows that, I just can't think he would leave that to chance. Valky wrote >4. The fake locket may hold clues to the beginning of the trail of >Horcruxes. Now I am not presuming that DD knew the locket contained a >note addressed to Voldie with Reg's signature on it. But I am >supposing that DD, somewhat aware that his time was running out, >wanted to give Harry one last push in the right direction. So allowing >for the chance that the fake locket might or might not bear a clue as >to the location of the real locket, DD takes the opportunity to help >Harry understand a new (hopefully the last) angle of Voldemorts magic, >and, with luck, leave him with his instructions to his next step in >the journey already in his hands. And clearly I am supposing that DD >snatched the locket up so quickly at the cave because he always >intended to keep from Harry that it was a fake until Harry was in a >position to benefit from the clue. Saraquel: Sorry Valky, but I don't think I'm understanding you here. It reads to me as though you are saying, even if DD was dying he wouldn't tell Harry about the Horcrux!Locket because he's hoping there will be a clue in the Fake!Locket. If that's what you meant then I think I've answered it above. If it isn't, could you elucidate for me. It seems to me that the "how did RAB know about the cave?" question is not going to be answered by what we know so far, which is why I think that the Fake!Locket was planted theory is worth something. I hope that JKRs explanation isn't going to be, "someone" followed Voldemort to the cave when he first hid the Horcrux, that would be really disappointing. Just a last comment on the possibility that the Fake!locket was planted and Horcrux!locket is still in DD's pocket. There is a thread running through that evil can never really be eradicated ? UK Ed HBP p601 Harry remembers "It was important, Dumbledore said, to fight, and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then could evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated ." And also Snape's speech about the Dark Arts being "varied, ever-changing and eternal" p169. It makes me speculate that JKR is going to leave some evil around after the end of book 7. Whether that evil is a bit of Voldemort's soul (well 2 bits as he can't be destroyed if the Locket isn't) or something in the form of a Snape (I can hear the hissing and booing from the gallery over that one :-) ) I don't know. I doubt it will be bits of Voldemort as that's the whole point of the story, but something will be hanging around. Whilst I'm musing around this, did it strike anyone else as odd, the order in which the fake locket and DD death was done. I was so knocked out by DD's death, that the fake locket scenario seemed almost nothing ? almost an annoying side issue which threatened to take away from the impact of DD's death. It felt thrown away. Yet it is vital for the continuation of the plot. To find out that it was a fake locket before DD died, would have made even more impact IMO. You would have been watching that scene with Draco with even more pathos, that DD had weakened himself for nothing. I don't think the discovery of the fake locket could have overshadowed DD's death in any way, so I don't think that JKR left the revelation until after DD's death for any reader impact reason. I think there was a plot reason why DD either didn't know the locket was fake, or knew but didn't tell Harry that it was. Ok, now for the potion: > houyhnhnm wrote: > The potion, along with the spell protecting it (which defies even > Dumbledore's knowledge of magic,) bothers me more than the location >of the cave. > > If RAB (whoever that is) got to the cave first, are the potion and >the> charm the same ones Voldemort used when he placed the horcrux there > originally. If so, how did RAB replace the potion after having drunk > it? Or did RAB know how to break the charm (and then recast > it)protecting the potion, and thus didn't have to drink it? S/he > would have to be an extremely powerful witch or wizard. Or is the > potion Dumbledore drinks a different potion altogether? I agree that > Dumbledore has a remarkably cavalier attitude about drinking it. As > for the effect, as someone else pointed out, it sounds like somebody > getting crucio'd. It reminds me of Harry's visions when he is inside > Voldemort's head, but I can't get any further than that. Well yes, Hmmm, the delights of the potion. Of course all that you say just adds to the mystery. And another thing is, if the potion is RAB's what was he intending to happen to the person he presumed would have to drink it ? i.e. Voldmeort. Why put Voldemort, through all that "memory stuff" for want of a better term. If it was a memory stored in the potion, whose memory was it, and of what. Or was it that the potion made you relive your worst experience, or something like that? As I said in my last post, the potion requires a lot of thought and I'm not yet ready to go there!! Maybe you'd like to start us off by listing all the possible combinations and permutations. Saraquel From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 6 20:33:13 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arthur and Molly. Was: Re: Digest Number 6322 In-Reply-To: <1123216880.2210.82919.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050806203313.79921.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136787 Susan wrote: In some ways, Molly and Arthur have a very traditional relationship in terms of gender roles. Her arena is mostly the family, the household, and child care. His arena is mostly work and supporting the family. As I've said before, I find this too rigid for my own taste. However, I grew up in a family like that in that my father worked outside the home, and my mother worked inside the home. In Molly and Arthur's situation, it seems to work for them. But in other ways, Molly and Arthur do not conform to highly rigid gendered roles. Molly is loud, she shouts, she makes her opinions known. Arthur is more quiet and laid back. This is contrary to what men and women are supposed to be like. Lynda says: I've been reading the posts concerning Molly and contemplating what to say, and now I think I've got it. I agree that in many ways Arthur and Molly Weasley do have a traditional male/female relationship. Molly stays home and cares for the household and the kids and they've made a lot of sacrifices so that she can do so. Raising seven kids is an awesome task, and is sure to give any set of parents a few hair-raising moments. With the decision made that Molly will stay home, it is of course necessary for Arthur to work long hours, and the overtime would more than likely always be welcome. He does try to be there whenever possible, though. He went with them to buy school supplies in COS and then again in POA. He took the kids to the Quidditch World Cup. From comments made by the kids, most especially Ron, he takes a little more of a hand in the rearing of his children than seems evident at the first glance. And as far as guidance/discipline goes, with the hours that he works, the "wait until your father gets home" method of handling things probably would not be the best way to handle things. In fact, Arthur's normally laid-back manner of parenting probably makes his children take more notice of those times when he does find a need to stop a particular behavior. Lynda From meusel at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 7 01:46:36 2005 From: meusel at sbcglobal.net (alm48er) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:46:36 -0000 Subject: Chapter 1 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136788 First post. I haven't seen this question asked yet (please forgive me if this has been addressed, as I haven't yet caught up on all the posts, but I did do a search). JKR often slips in important bits of information, and I'm thinking that the fact that Kingsley Shacklebolt is working for the Muggle Prime Minister is that bit of information that makes Chapter 1 necessary. Why would DD station a member of the Order in the Muggle world? Here I must reveal myself to be in the Snape Loyal to DD camp, and say that my conjecture is that Shacklebolt is very carefully positioned so as to be available as someone for Snape to report to. I have read so many opinions both sides of the issue; many of them refer to the fact that now the Order believes Snape to have killed DD because they were at Hogwarts and heard Harry say that. Therefore, he is of no further use to the Order because he has no one to report to. I contend that isn't entirely true. Not all Order members were stationed at Hogwarts. Shacklebolt wasn't, and if Aberforth is in the Order, he wasn't either. And there are all the Percy!Spy theories as well. And I'm sure there are other Order members we don't know about. In fact, JKR has mentioned at least one in interviews that we haven't properly met yet (she's likely referring to Aberforth, but maybe she isn't). Anyway, Chapter 1 was very amusing with all the Prime Minister funny stuff about Major/Blair, and a good way to recap the series so far and introduce Scrimgeur. However, that tidbit about Shacklebolt was more than just an amusing joke about wizard competence, I think. Do you? alm From ayaneva at aol.com Sun Aug 7 02:16:56 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 02:16:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny (+ Emma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136789 Ok, I think I'm responding to phoenixgod2000, but it was a little hard to tell from the format of the post... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: >> > She didn't explicitly state her pov until after HBP was printed. I > also don't think her intentions were clear at all--at least before > HBP. If Ginny is supposed to be Harry's perfect girl, why did he > have almost no scenes alone with her in the book? Why did he spend > more time alone with Hermione comforting her? Why did he go out with > Luna? In OOTP Harry notices Luna's appearence as much if not more > than Ginny's and her comforting him after his godfather's death is > at least as important as Ginny comforting him during the Christmas > possession. Harry notices that Ginny flies well. He also notices the > same thing about Luna when she flies with them to the DoM. Ginny is > supposedly tough and magically powerful, but Luna is the last girl > standing at during the DoM battle. > > > > > > What's frustrating to me is that it wouldn't have taken all that > much to get me on the HG love train. I became a H/L shipper after > two scenes. Ginny is a character with a lot of potential but the way > she is written and characterized drives me to froth at the mouth. > It's just so *bad* in my view I can't help but hate her. The LI and > ship of the main character needs to be done better than what was > shown in my view. H/G in HBP was just hollow and boring. > > phoenixgod2000, who really is looking forward to the next book. Now > if only Luna were to get involved... I thought it was just me who hated Ginny (or at least how Ginny is written)! Glad to find there's someone else. She's just sooo....ugh, I really hated how she embarrased Ron. It was just too mean. Ron was only trying to be a good big brother, a little over-protective yes, but he was just trying to look out for her. And she decided to be a nasty little snot. If I were Ron, I so would've slapped her. If my sister did that to me, I'd slap her. I have a small violent streak. Ginny's the girl that I would've hated in school for being assertive to the point of annoying. But the point of my posting isn't to complain about Ginny (although I'd be happy to do that all day). It's funny because I agree that Luna is a better match for Harry, even though I hated Luna in OOTP. For whatever reason, however, I *liked* Luna in HBP. I can't place why, but maybe I just had time to get used to her or something. She has more in common with Harry, IMO. Where Ginny is fiery and brave (which is fine), Luna is quiet about her bravery and, as you said, was the last one standing in the DOM. It's often the quiet ones, the ones that don't make a splash, who end up being the most vital. I hope that it holds true in this case. Luna has this level-headed ease about her that seems to serve her well. I think the "level-headedness" is better for Harry than Ginny's "fiery-ness." I dunno, I guess the H/G ship just seems too action-hero-movie- perfect, too easy, too...too..."fling-ish." The connection between Harry and Ginny isn't, IMO, deep enough. (remember my complaint about about the SHIP happening too fast?) I think you mentioned that it was Luna who was with Harry at the end of OOTP. It's always Luna who gives the simple words of wisdom and encouragement when Harry needs them the most. I really wish I knew when I went from despising Luna to liking her, but I think she, not Ginny, serves as the perfect balance to Harry. Ginny is too much like Harry, there's no balance. Like Luna balances Harry, the Trio balance each other out, which is why they work so well as a team (when they're not arguing). Just my $.02. There's no room for Ginny as anything other than an ally and friend. --------------------------------------------- Deb said: There are, of course, multiple definitions of "Spinner" from many different areas... it can mean one who spins as in one who makes thread or yarn from wool, or one who is a teller of tales, or who is a Spin Doctor... one who puts a distinctive positive or negative emphasis to known facts(personally I think Snape is a master Spin Doctor!!). It also can mean a type of fishing lure... Me now: Hope this exact take on "Spinners End" hasn't been posted yet(having trouble keeping up). The first thing that I thought of when I looked at "Spinners End" was that quote by Sir Walter Scott (had to look up the name): "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive" Now assuming that JKR *wanted* us to think of Sir Scott when reading the title, that quote is one reason why I think Snape is still working for the good side. I know that's a HUGE assumption, but the quote is the first thing that popped into my head, so maybe others thought of it too. The whole focus of "Spinners End" is the information that Snape is giving to Cissy and Bella in conversation. In that context, I think Snape's deceiving Bella, Cissy, and anyone with Lord Thingie. And, in the process of deceiving the baddies, Snape certainly *has* woven quite a tangled web by the end of HBP, what with the Unbreakable Vow, having to kill Dumbledore (*had* to one way or another), yadda yadda yadda. If the focus of the chapter was Snape in conversation with Dumbledore, then I'd suspect that Snape was deceiving Dumbledore. But the web wouldn't be nearly so tangled in this case and the Sir Walter Scott quote would be kinda pointless. In fact, Snape=bad is so simplistic that the quote would have to meaning at all. Either way, by the end of HBP we see the "end" result of the web that's been spun. Not that "end" in this case implies that the whole Snape situation is over and done with, but this chapter of the Snape dynamic is finished and we're on to the next chapter in Book 7. AyanEva From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 02:18:13 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 02:18:13 -0000 Subject: The Twins: Good or Bad? (was:Re: parental roles in HP books - Molly) In-Reply-To: <002501c59a19$f334c970$a33b79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136790 > >>Betsy Hp: > > > >Fred apparently used Ron's puffskein for bludger practice. Which > >means, effectively, that Fred hit a small furry animal with a > >cricket bat until it was dead. Not very pleasant, IMO. > >>Sherry: > i don't remember this at all, but if it happened ... if Ron was > five, the twins were seven. Betsy Hp: I *poured* through HBP looking for the quote and couldn't find it, so apparently I confused the puffskein incident with the Unbreakable Vow. However, FB&WTFT (Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them) has hand scribbled notes between Harry and Ron that say: "I had one of them once" [there's an arrow pointing to the Puffskein entry] "What happened to it?" "Fred used it for Bludger practice." (p.34) There's no indication of age, but I'd assume this occurs pre-Hogwarts for both Ron and Fred. > >>Sherry: > My brother accidentally killed my canary when he was around that > age, six or seven, I think. I doubt that the twins purposely set > out to kill Ron's pet. They were thoughtless and irresponsible, > but then, what seven year old kid isn't? Betsy Hp: I think, for me, it seems like part of a somewhat disturbing trend. Fred and George feed a firecracker to a salamander, they cause a team- mate to nearly bleed to death. They nearly kill a fellow student for trying to take house points from them. They help, though very indirectly, Death Eaters invade Hogwarts. They also help Harry sneak out of Hogwarts when a mass murderer is after him. At the same time they're highly entertaining and Harry likes them quite a bit. So while I'm personally a bit disturbed by them (and consequently have a lot of sympathy for Percy) I'm not sure that JKR means them to be anything other than merry pranksters. What strikes me as a rather disturbing list of injured parties JKR may look at as jolly good fun. Honestly, I have no idea how I'm supposed to take them. Once again, I guess we'll have to wait for book 7 and JKR's end game. Betsy Hp From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 02:14:24 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 02:14:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Remus/Tonks and real life experiences (long) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050804205050.018f4ce0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136791 Lissa: >But there were a few points I wanted to keep discussing. guz: Great-- I am enjoying this discussion. I have already replied to a post by kiricat on this thread, so at certain points, I will point you there for my responses, to avoid double-posting. Lissa: >Actually, I DO wonder about the narrative purposes. A Patronus >changing- especially when the Order uses their Patroni to >communicate- could conceivably be a major plot point, especially as >Remus says it's an emotional upheaval that causes a Patronus to >change, not a falling in love. guz: Hey, I consider falling in love to be quite an emotional upheaval! ;- ) Anyway, I read JKR's bit on her website about the Order using the patroni to communicate, but we still don't really know how it works. Does the patronus speak? Does it use it's creator's voice? Has everyone in the Order memorized each others' patroni? Can they spot a fake one, or one that has been coerced? We don't know. Snape's comment implies that this is the first time he's seen Tonks' new patronus form. He didn't seem to have trouble recognizing whose it was, and the message wasn't even meant for him. Lissa: >Let's say- just for the sake of this argument- Snape isn't evil, >and like Harry, he's Dumbledore's man, through and through. What >happened at the end of the book certainly qualifies as an emotional >upheaval for Snape. I can see the Order being contacted by a >Patronus they don't recognize- perhaps another phoenix- because >Snape's Patronus has changed. There's a valid reason later in the >book for there to have been a Patronus change in this one, right >there, and if that happens I'll totally shut up about the Patronus >change! guz: I agree- there's still more to Snape than meets the eye. The thing is, Snape and Tonks are completely different personality types. Tonks wears her heart on her sleeve (what Snape would call weak). Snape is also a super Occlumens and a double agent (who he's a double agent for, we don't know). There is no way he could have stayed alive this long if he couldn't control his emotions with respect to his magic. We've seen him lose his temper a few times, but it's never seemed to cause unwanted magic to happen. I have no idea if the idea of a changing patronus will become a significant plot point. It may have been a throw-away thing. Lissa: >I loved HBP- don't get me wrong. (Very possible to, because I like >ranting about this particular subject and don't get into the >debates on other subjects much.) But the whole book did have some >problems with expository writing- almost like JKR really wanted to >get it out. guz: Yup. I was chuckling throughout the book at what was obviously (as others have mentioned) a checklist of stuff thrown in for the fans: The fans wonder about Zabini? Here he is! The fans wonder if Snape's a vampire? Nope, we'll introduce you to a real one! The fans wonder if Harry will use a time turner in his final battle? Nope, they're all smashed! I actually enjoyed that, though, and I considered it a present from JKR to her fans. guz earlier: >It's my opinion that the author did not intend the readers to think >that Lupin and Sirius were anything more than friends, and even if, >for some reason, she did: he's dead, Jim. Lissa: >Before the Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview, I would have argued >with you. And I do still think there's plenty of subtext there >that you can make a fanfic work, and work EXTREMELY well and be >canon compliant. But even if I want to let myself read it >that way, as you say, Sirius is dead. So the two aren't even in >conflict anyway. guz: Well, they are in conflict, in a way. Since you have written Remus/Sirius fanfic, you have obviously thought long and hard about the relationship possibilities between those two. I tried to put myself in your position-- please see post #136724: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for what I came up with. Lissa: >I really, really hate to think you could be right on the part about >her publishers, although after the no profanity bit, I'm not so >sure. In a series where a seventeen year old is murdered for being >in the wrong place at the wrong time, explicit abuse is mentioned, >and we have a pretty obvious metaphor for a child molester (really, >could Greyback be more subtle?), the thought that two men in love >is unacceptable is very sad to me. guz: This is an excellent point, which kiricat also brought up. Please see post #136724: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my response. Lissa: >One of the things I found very interesting about the interview was >the transition in which JKR asked what the interviewers thought >about Lupin/Tonks. She didn't bring it up during the shipping >conversation. Instead, she brought it up after discussing Draco >and the Death Eaters, talking about how something can look really >attractive, and then you get involved and find out it's too much >for you to handle. Right from there, she said "So what do you >think about Lupin/Tonks?" guz: This *is* interesting, and though I read this interview, I didn't pick up on this. Hmmm... Lissa: >But given what Tonks has gone through this year (I do agree with >you on that, although more on that in a minute), and what what >Lupin is and what his life is like, my little over-analyzing mind >can draw a really interesting connection there, although that goes >directly against her theme of Love Conquers All. guz: Excellent points. I have no doubt that Lupin and Tonks' relationship will *not* be peaches and cream and happily ever after. But it will be fulfilling for both of them. Lissa: >It's as soon as Tonks bursts out that the scene goes downhill for >me. Now, I admit that there are two very personal reasons for >this:<...> guz: Please see post #136724: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my personal interpretation of the hospital scene. In short, I believe Lupin is a metaphor for someone who is HIV+. Lissa: >As I said before, I've done the begging thing- and it hasn't >worked. To me, Tonks's behavior comes across as begging, and it >makes me distinctly uncomfortable. Bluntly put, it reminds me of >things I've done when I was younger. guz: Lissa, I don't know you, but I am guessing that the situations you were in were different cases, and did not involve a person with a degenerative and/or terminal illness. If I am wrong on this, please correct me, and please, please forgive me. Let me pose a hypothetical question: if you had fallen in love with someone, and then discovered they had a terminal illness, what would you have done? Tonks is begging Remus to not let his condition stand in their way. Lissa: >The intrusion of the others- especially McGonagall- just bugs me. guz: I admit, I loved that Lupin's former head-of-house, McGonagall gets on him. It's like, "Look Remus, even your former life-advisor is telling you you're being silly!" I wonder what she told him during his fifth year career-counseling session? That must have been a sad conversation. Lissa: >I do agree that Tonks had some major issues and much better reasons >to be depressed. It's just that the way it was handled read to me >like "Okay, I've got my man, everything can be great again!" It >might not have been the intention, but with so much of my attention >focused on other parts of the plot, that's how it came across to me. guz: Again, difference of interpretation. I took this as a ray of light in a time of darkness. Everything is definitely not going to be great for Lupin nor Tonks after this, but I think they will find comfort in each other. I can't imagine (and I hope to never have the experience) of living through a war where there's a very good chance I wouldn't be alive the next day. Lissa: >The woman who lives next door to me (and who doesn't ship anything) >actually told her nine-year old daughter "when you get interested >in boys, don't act like Lavender or Tonks." guz: Ah, I find it sad that people would find parallels between Lavender's and Tonks' behaviors. Lavender is obviously a stereotype of a teenage girl in puppy love (and a realistic one, in my opinion). I think Tonks would be an excellent role model for anyone. She's a strong, selfless person. Yes, she's overemotional, but I forgive her that. guz earlier: >Well, the entire wizarding population has been dead men/women >walking for all of HBP. Lissa: >Well, everyone is, but the difference with Remus is he has a >specific enemy- and one he knows far, far too well. guz: Hmm... interesting interpretation here. I didn't perceive Greyback as specific threat to Remus. He specializes in children, and Remus was already his victim. Lissa: >I do wonder how her parents would react to all this, though. > But then again, Andromeda defied her family and married Ted >Tonks, so.... guz: Exactly-- if anyone can understand making sacrifices for love, it's Andromeda Tonks. And she's Sirius's favorite cousin-- are you telling me she wouldn't be happy that her daughter is with Sirius's best friend? I wonder if Andromeda and Remus know each other? I would love to meet Tonks' parents in the 7th book, but unfortunately, I know it would never end up as more than an cameo appearance. Lissa: >Okay- now THIS I can buy. And in fact, that's what the basis for >the Remus/Tonks fic I should be working on right now is- that he's >willing to try. But that definitely contradicts the idea that >they're talking marriage. guz: Oh man, please let me know when you post the fic-- I'd love to read it! And the fact that two people aren't madly in love doesn't necessarily contradict the idea of marriage. In many cultures, the idea is that you marry first, and then learn/grow to love each other. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 02:28:25 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 02:28:25 -0000 Subject: The Twins: Good or Bad? (was:Re: parental roles in HP books - Molly) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136792 > Betsy Hp: > > At the same time they're highly entertaining and Harry likes them > quite a bit. So while I'm personally a bit disturbed by them (and > consequently have a lot of sympathy for Percy) I'm not sure that JKR > means them to be anything other than merry pranksters. What strikes > me as a rather disturbing list of injured parties JKR may look at as > jolly good fun. Honestly, I have no idea how I'm supposed to take > them. Once again, I guess we'll have to wait for book 7 and JKR's > end game. I think the twins would be a lot less sympathetic in the muggle world. The magical world has so many easy/quick fixes for most of the problmes they cause it mitigates their actions from dark to funny. Harry also breaks numerous bones but is fine after a night in the infirmary. Draco smashes Harry's nose violently and its fixed with a wave of a wand. The sheer ease of magic to fix problems leads to an escalation of problems that would, in the real world, be quite deadly, just because they can be safely escalated. phoenixgod2000 From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 7 02:54:09 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:54:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F577D1.30908@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136793 Christopher Nuttall wrote: snip > Years pass, and Harry comes to Hogwarts. Hes very like his father, so Snape hates him, but Dumbledore tells him to look after Harry, so he does. The bad chemistry between the two prevents Harry from seeing that. Snapes knowledge of the Dark Arts makes him the only other teacher that can teach Harry to shield his mind, a bad outcome. Kathy writes: We know that Dumbledore suspected that Voldemort would return in some form. He kept Snape at the school for 10 years waiting for Harry to attend. We also know that Voldemort is the "most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen". Snape would have known before Dumbledore, even, that Voldemort was not dead, because of the Dark Mark, and they were both preparing for his return. We know that Dumbledore and Snape discussed what was to happen on that return. Dumbledore says in GoF " You know what I must ask you to do." Now keeping all of this in mind, do we really expect to see Snape being kind to Harry? Do we expect to see Snape as the friend of all his colleagues? Do we really expect to see him as being supportive to anyone but his fellow Death Eater Slytherins? Snape knows that Occlumency will help but probably not completely prevent Voldemort from digging through his mind. We can be fairly sure that he is going to do a bang-up job of it. Snape has, in fact, used these memories of abusing Harry as proof to Voldemort that he is faithful. If Snape had to remove a large number of memories to hide the fact that he was a reasonable human being, he would have huge amounts of time missing from those memories. I am beginning to believe that, just like Dumbledore, Snape has been preparing for thirteen years for the return of Voldemort and has been very careful not to jeopardize his position. He could not remove the memories of helping to defeat Quirrel, he had to explain them. He could not remove the memory of being sent back to spy by Dumbledore and would not have been able to fake other memories to explain why he was late, so he had to use it to explain that he was still valuable because DD trusted him. He would not have been able to remove the memories of the Order Headquarters, but because he was not the secret keeper they did not seem to identify its whereabouts. All of the Order members would have been in Snape's head, but he would not be able to remove their memories because it would be too obvious if he had apparently not seen another Order member in thirteen years. This would explain why he never ate at 12 Grimmauld Place, never socialized, and why Dumbledore never dumped all over him for picking on Gryffindors. For Voldemort to look at thirteen years of memories of disliking his job, hating his fellow teachers, hating the kids, especially Harry and yet, staying where Voldemort sent him, must have been very convincing. Considering the importance in the books of Legilimency, Occlumency and penseives, I think this could be taken as a fairly noticeable hint that what we see through Harry's eyes, may not be the whole story. I am not suggesting that Snape is a fluffy bunny, mind you. A warm, kind, supportive person would not have been able to pull this behaviour off for so many years without cracking under the guilt. Snape seems to manage nicely and even put heart and soul into his performance. All this and gets paid for it as well. KJ From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 02:59:14 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 02:59:14 -0000 Subject: The Lightning struck tower and the Tarot cards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136794 I was on another list talking about HP and someone posted this. I found it fascinationg enough to put it here. It about the meaning of the Major Arcana card called The Tower and in the picture shown on the site it is being struck by lightning. I don't know if that's the way it is normally shown or if that is just one artists interpretation. The arcana has some interesting things that might apply to Snape and/or Dumbledore since that chapter was entitled the lightning struck tower. here is the pic: http://www.learntarot.com/maj16.htm these are the major meanings: SUDDEN CHANGE RELEASE DOWNFALL REVELATION Three of these meanings would make more sense if Snape is evil. Sudden Change, Downfall, Revelation (of his ESEness) would all make more sense if he was a double dealer. On the other hand, Release would make more sense if he was still good in the sense of releasing DD's pain/burden. It's a fascinating thought experiment. As much as I would like to believe Snape is evil because I'm always willing to think the worst of him, I am truly not sure if he is DD's betrayer or not. My instincts say yes, but if DD was wrong this whole time about Snape he will look like a huge fool and I don't know that JKR wants that for Dumbledore. phoenixgod2000 From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 7 03:01:01 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:01:01 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136795 Just saw your post before sending this Seraquel--we might be going in different directions, but all of it will lead somewhere, right?!? Saraquel: > So how about we just say the cave smells particularly fishy, but > we just can't work out what species? > > I'm wondering if working on what's in the potion and what happens > to DD when he takes it will help resolve some of the questions. > But there are so many ifs and buts about that, it's going to take > a while to put something together. Perhaps I'll become a shipper, > it seems the grass over there is a lot more fertile. Jen: You know, most of our theories for how someone found the cave, as well as how the person managed to take the real locket and/or place the fake one, rely on subterfuge of some kind. Either by Voldemort, DD or RAB. But the potion, to me the potion sealed the deal for the cave scene being exactly what we see--a Voldemort creation, located by someone prior to DD & Harry, and meant to kill and forever conceal any persons skilled (and lucky***) enough to find the cave. That scene with DD demanding Harry promise to do whatever it takes to get the locket, including tipping the potion into his 'protesting mouth', then watching Harry have to do so---that scene was excruciating for me. I feel 100% certain DD did not plan that as a training exercise or that he knew to expect the potion. So let's go with that, the potion is real, the climax of the obstacle course. Only an extremely skilled person, and one who *knows Voldemort* would make it that far. But really the magic in the cave starts with the potion and moves outward. The locket was placed and the potion made at the same time, then whoever did this went by boat back to the side of the lake, charmed the boat, added the Inferi, and finally, placed the blood seal. Looking at it that way, there really is a possibility the locket was switched from the start. Voldemort had someone with him to assist making the potion, perhaps, and whether or not that person was RAB, the Fake!Locket with the note was the one making it into the basin (although I still have a very hard time thinking 1) Voldemort would allow anyone to help him and 2) He wouldn't see the locket being replaced). The potion itself. Bleh. I've looked through every section I can think of for an ingredient, a creature, *something* to explain the potion. The only logical thing we can tie the effects of the potion to are dementors. Dumbledore is definitely, IMO, experiencing either the darkest moments of his life or his greatest fears. Or Merrylinks had a good idea in post #135371, that the potion makes you see the future, specifically your own death. That's a very Voldemortian idea, isn't it? He expects everyone should fear death as much as he does. I do expect a twist to this story. I don't believe RAB found the locket exactly as Dumbeldore did--it's just not possible. No one else knows Voldemort's entire history. Either RAB was a DE privy to the cave location, a person from Voldemort's past who knows about the cave or an assistant taken to the cave with Voldemort. At least those are my thoughts at the moment . Jen ***From paragraph above using the term lucky: I *might* think RAB was really Regulus if he took Felix while attempting to steal the Horcrux or placing it prior to the other protections. That would certainly indicate Mr. Slughorn might be involved somehow, and perhaps explain Slughorns complete terror at the idea Voldemort might find him. Not only does he know about the Horcrux plan, he was actually involved in stealing one. Hmmmm. Except he's a big coward. Maybe all he provided was the Felix and has no clue about the rest. Yet another theory to disprove, no doubt . From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sun Aug 7 03:06:02 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:06:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does there have to be ralationship abuse and rape?? Message-ID: <1ee.4138156d.3026d49a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136796 In a message dated 8/6/2005 7:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com writes: Most of my childhood was spent enduring every type of abuse you could think of, you name it I went through it, yes including sexual abuse. So I comprehend you perfectly well when you say anyone can be a predator, which means Harry could be, *IF* JKR had written him that way, but she didn't. It's not because he's still a teen, because if you're going to grow up to be an abusive adult, you can have abusive tendencies as early as your teenage years, sometimes even earlier. I can see you're determined to believe the worst because you've experienced the worst, and so think it's possible of anyone. I do think you could be more open-minded, and perhaps a little bit logical about this. I mean, it's one thing to have those implications about a minor character we hardly know, but we don't need to imply anything about Harry's character, especially something as big as this. We've had six years to get to know him and have been in and out of his mind more times than anyone can count. He's not an abusive person in the least. The end. Rizza Agreed. When we start talking about Harry as a sexual predator I think it's safe to say that we're no longer discussing canon. Everyone reads HP (and any book or story) through their own filters. That's cool, but for the purpose of this list sticking to canon is probably the best way to go. If you find yourself talking more about your life than Harry's perhaps it's time to step back. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 03:11:00 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:11:00 -0000 Subject: No AKs - just the Ministry room of Love Was (Re: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136797 > Holly wote: > *Who feels she's now pushing her luck with keep stepping on people's > toes and is going to shut up* Saraquel: You go for it Holly, what's a few crushed toes between friends? And anyway I agree with you. In the world of the book it has been made very clear that using any of the unforgivable curses is being seduced by the dark arts. Harry now has natural rage and vengeance coursing through him and all he wants to do is inflict pain on those who have inflicted pain on him. But this is the easy option, not the right option ? to quote DD's homily. Is Harry ever going to have the skill and the opportunity to AK Voldemort or Snape ? er No I don't think so. If Harry thinks he can beat Voldemort or Snape at their own game then ? end game as far as I'm concerned. JMO of course. Harry is not a particularly impressive wizard. He has his specialities but otherwise he's fairly ordinary, and I think JKR deliberately made him that way. Dumbledore is a master wizard, and in his opinion, Love is the thing. Dumbledore has always thought this, Voldemort sneers at him for this in the scene in the pensieve where he comes ostensibly to try and get the DADA job. Harry dismisses it almost, when Dumbledore reveals to him that it is his weapon. It seems that members of the list may well agree, that love is not enough. But I'm with DD on this one, and I suspect that we're sailing in JKR's boat too. ** Love is all you need.** So what sort of love are we talking about here. We are talking about something that has the power to blow Voldemort and his AK curse out of the water at GH. This is not, lovey, dovey, ooey, cooey stuff. This is the sort of love that strips you down naked and forces you to face yourself as you are. Although I've never read these books looking for religious overtones and until recently, assumed they were written without religious overtones (not belonging to any specific religion myself), I think the love we are talking about here is a sort of Last Judgement Love. A love that crushes evil and crushes the evil in you. Now I don't think that Harry has the capability to produce/express that sort of love. But I do think however, that having a whole/complete soul that fundamentally loves will be good enough for him to survive in the presence of that type of love. Let's go back to the Department of Mysteries and a room in the basement which is full of the power of Love. Well it made short work of Harry's knife, when he tried to open the door. Let's say that Harry collects together Voldemort's Horcruxes (this is a theory in the making, don't expect all lose threads tied up here) including Nagini if he can get his hands on her ? perhaps he can sweet-talk her in parseltongue. Then they all go for a picnic down to the Ministry and Harry sends Voldemort an invitation via his patronus ? "Harry and the Horcruxes cordially invite you to a firework display in the room of Love. Dress code: funerial" You will note that the reason Voldemort couldn't possess Harry at the ministry in OotP was, according to DD, because Harry was full of love and Voldemort could not stand it. OK, what happens next? Well . There are a few options but this is the one I like at the moment: Harry somehow lures Voldemort into the Room of Love, not that difficult if he has all Voldemorts Horcruxes in his hands as bait. The Room of Love is like a gigantic mirror in which one sees everything about oneself illuminated in the light of what is Right ? with a very big capital R. At that point there is blinding self- realisation, which brings about internal agonies which the cruciatus curse can only hint at. (Anyone who has gone through an "Oh my god how wrong I was about that one" moment, will be quite well aware of just how painful self-realisation can be ? which gives you a hint that I've been there :-) ) One sees oneself measured against perfection, and motives count. Hence it will not be an easy ride for Harry either. All this crucio stuff against his enemies will come back to haunt him at this point, and he too will have to go through the mill and out the other side. But his pure untarnished soul should get him through it. However, for Voldemort and his evil Horcrux bits, there will be literally, hell to pay. Quite whether this will kill Volemort or just leave him crumpled and vanquished, or what I don't know. Neither have I tackled the How-does-this-work- with-the-prophecy angle. But I'm sure someone will point it out to me if it doesn't work!! But look - Voldemort vanquished and no AKs in sight. Neither, btw, in this scenario does Harry have to do any complicated magic to destroy the Horcruxes and risk being killed in the process. I must admit that I really like this theory and have had it for at least a year now. Book 6 hasn't invalidated it at all IMO. Saraquel Who wasn't going to do another post today .. From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 02:44:03 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 19:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP Re: Harry and Ginny: Answering Del's Challenge In-Reply-To: <1123257012.2661.21307.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050807024403.27730.qmail@web30012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136798 Queen of Everything wrote: I hardly think that the single moment going through the portrait hole was the reason ginny and dean split, It was just the thing that pushed Ginny to do what she was probably thinking of doing in the first place. Hermione even tells Harry that Dean and Ginny have been "rocky for ages". But the moment does speak of Ginny's independance and why I think she and Harry are so attracted to each other. Ginny has always liked Harry, but when she was younger she was too nervous around him. It wasn't untill she became more confident and secure (more herself) that Harry began to take notice. The Ginny in HBP is far different than insecure Ginny in COS. Ginny is now a young lady who isn't afraid to speak her mind, who is brave, and who is capable. Her personality seems to mirror Harry's in many ways. Lynda says: I agree with your assessment. I think that the scene with Dean trying to help Ginny through the portrait hole is actually to be understood as the last in a line of petty annoyances that built up, causing the split with Dean. And a lot of why I think they're attracted to each other. I considered a H/L ship, but I couldn't get there, because imho Luna would drive Harry nuts. She'd try to take him along on a hunt for crumple-horned snorkaks or some other "mythological" beast and he'd want to be off fighting evil wizards and saving people. Different types of quests entirely (again JMHO). I really think that the possession of her by LV took her longer than just the summer between CoS and PoA to get over, and that's the reason she was so unobtrusive for so long and even so nervous around Harry. Through GoF, I noticed that she and Hermione seem to be good friends, so I considered that as a not so subtle signal that there was more to Ginny than meets the eye. Also being the seventh child is usually considered significant. I've already posted about many of the clues I saw to her importance in the series. It will be interesting to see what JKR does with her in the seventh book. There's that number again... Lynda. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 03:26:53 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:26:53 -0000 Subject: Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136799 Very interesting Snape thoughts! Chris wrote: I think that Snape was a gifted child when he was born, one with considerable talents. Unfortunately, that led him to become ambitious, hence his sorting into Slytherin. As a half-blood, he was builled by the others and became proud of it, calling himself the `half-blood prince' because of it. He took pride in his `low-born' origins, so to speak. A lot of children do this when they are bullied. Marianne S. : I agree with the first part of this.. the gifted child and the ambition, hence the sorting into Slytherin. However, I rather doubt that he let his blood status be known to fellow Slytherins. Even Tom Riddle valued friends that were Pure Blood, and I see no indication that he let people in on his half blood secret. If he had, I doubt he would have had as many followers. Nevertheless, Snape is smart enough to have found out this information, and perhaps that was part of what led him to Voldemort, and it may even by why Voldemort still trusts Snape. Consequently, I don't think he took PRIDE in his half-blood origin, I think he purposefully used that moniker to hide this bit of information. Chris again: One of the bullies was James Potter. Snape may or may not have invented the lifting spell ? did he show it off for someone's approval? ? but it was used on him. Snape conceived a hatred of James and Sirus, not without reason. After Sirius tried to introduce him to Remus in wolf form, Snape must have believed that he had intended to kill him. Dumbledore was so lenient to them ? Sirius should have been expelled for that ? that Snape fell towards Voldemort. Perhaps because the dark lord might have known things that Snape wanted to know, or perhaps out of a desire for revenge. James was pro-Order, so Snape would not be. Marianne S: I think it is pretty clear based on Snape's reaction to Harry about not using his own spells against him that Snape did come up with Levicorpus himself. One thing we don't know is how James et. all found out the spell, since it was a nonverbal one. Perhaps James knew some legilimency. I speculate that Snape liked Lily, enough to not wish her any harm. Marianne S: I agree that Sirius got off pretty light for leading James to the shack. I have already wondered, though, if this was the very incident that let Lily see that James was a *good* enough guy to even save his worst enemy's life, and that's what brought Harry's parents ultimately together. I could see that both owing James a life-debt AND losing Lily to James (though I rather doubt Severus was even in the running) could drive Snape even farther toward Voldemort. If I understand the timeline correctly, Snape was working for Voldemort at the time he first applied for a teaching post at Hogwarts. It is unclear to me if he started teaching that year or the next, after the fall of Voldemort. If Snape did in fact care for Lily, which I believe he did, then yes -- her death would be a great reason for him to show remorse. It's just a shame that he never sees the Lily in Harry... because Harry definitely seems lot less like his dad (and more like his mom) in his treatment of others. Chris: Anyway, when the prediction was made, Snape saw it as an opportunity to get James killed. He told Voldemort, perhaps empathising that James had a child. James and his spawn (Harry) would be wiped from the Earth; lily would be allowed to live. (Speculation; did Voldemort swear an Unbreakable Oath with Snape for that? Was that why the spell bounced back?) Marianne S: I think it's pretty clear that the spell bounced back because Lily tried to protect Harry. If Voldemort had attacked Neville's parents and Neville's mom had died to protect him, Neville would have been the one Marked as the Chosen One. Not only can one glean this from OotP, but JKR herself makes it pretty clear in one of the sections on her official website. Chris: After Lily died, Snape fled to Dumbledore and confessed. (While this does seem to contradict Dumbledore's statement in GOF that Snape joined the Order before Voldemort fell, its possible that Snape fled AFTER telling Voldemort, but before Voldemort went to kill them.) Marianne S: I agree, this DOES seem contradictory. I would have to look back in GoF to see if there really is an anachronism or not. Chris: I think that Dumbledore knew what Draco was sent to do, after his father was locked up. Snape may not have, but he had been tricked into taking the Unbreakable Oath. Marianne S: I think Snape did NOT know what Draco was sent to do, until used Legilimency on Narcissa. He knew Bellatrix's weakness was thinking she was the person closest to and most valued by Voldemort, so he was cleverly able to win her trust by telling Narcissa that "The Dark Lord's Word Is Law" (or something like that) about not SPEAKING of the task, while at the same time reading her mind... Chris: I suspect that DD might have been dying ever since he found the ring, and so he ordered Snape to prepare to kill him, if necessary, therefore placing him in the best possible position to help Harry in book 7. Marianne S: I suspect that Dumbledore was correct, that it if wasn't for the quick reaction of Snape, he would already be dead. What I don't know is if he was dying 'cause the curse and/or poison was so powerful, or if it was due to the power of the evil in the ring combined with Dumbledore's advanced age. I suspect that Dumbledore knew he was dying, and once he knew about the vow knew that Snape WOULD have to kill him if it came to that, but he wasn't afraid and, as long as Harry was armed with all the information about Horcruxes Dumbledore could give him, he was ready. Chris: He didn't confide that in McGonagall; but perhaps Hagrid knows. Snape's rage at the killing is perhaps because he knows he has no choice, but to strike down the man who saved him from Askaban. That gives him the strength to cast AK. Marianne S: Well, I am one of the camp that believes it was a verbal AK but a non-verbal something else entirely... something that would lift Dumbledore up and over. We know from OotP that you cannot use an "Unforgiveable" curse effectively for a righteous reason, and if Snape was in fact fulfilling both his promises to Narcissa and Dumbledore, that would surely file under "righteous reasons." Also, Dumbledore's reaction to AK, as many others have also pointed out, don't match the prior canon about the effects of an AK (such as on the Riddles and Frank Bryce and Cedric ). So, what are your thoughts as to what Snape must do next? I believe he is carrying out Dumbledore's wish to protect Draco and Narcissa. But, I believe somehow something must be communicated by Dumbledore posthumously (we know from earlier in the book that Wizards create and abide by Wills) to say "I know you all hate Severus Snape right now, but let me assure you that he was acting on my orders..." If Dumbledore needed Snape's quick intervention to save his life due to the ring horcrux, how are Harry and whoever joins himgoing to get through those curses without the aid of the Half Blood Prince, Snape? So, as Chris said, Thoughts? Marianne S. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 03:37:28 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:37:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Harry and Ginny: Answering Del's Challenge In-Reply-To: <20050807024403.27730.qmail@web30012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136800 Lynda wrote: I agree with your assessment. I think that the scene with Dean trying to help Ginny through the portrait hole is actually to be understood as the last in a line of petty annoyances that built up, causing the split with Dean. And a lot of why I think they're attracted to each other. I considered a H/L ship, but I couldn't get there, because imho Luna would drive Harry nuts. She'd try to take him along on a hunt for crumple-horned snorkaks or some other "mythological" beast and he'd want to be off fighting evil wizards and saving people. Different types of quests entirely (again JMHO). Marianne S: I agree with that as well. Yet I also wonder... has anyone brought up the fact that Harry, under the invisibility cloak AFTER taking the Felix Felicis, first made it look to Lavender that just Ron and Hermione were leaving the boys' dorm and then, still invisible, bumped into Ginny in the portrait hole, making her think that Dean was "helping" her and ultimately leading to their split. Though I believe those splits were inevitable, it seems like Felix might have given them a nudge. Lynda: I really think that the possession of her by LV took her longer than just the summer between CoS and PoA to get over, and that's the reason she was so unobtrusive for so long and even so nervous around Harry. Through GoF, I noticed that she and Hermione seem to be good friends, so I considered that as a not so subtle signal that there was more to Ginny than meets the eye. Also being the seventh child is usually considered significant. I've already posted about many of the clues I saw to her importance in the series. It will be interesting to see what JKR does with her in the seventh book. There's that number again... Marianne S: I think that's an EXCELLENT assessment! As for that number...anyone notice how this month's Wizard of the Month on JKR's site is Wenlock, Bridget (1202 - 1285) Famous Arithmancer. First to establish the magical properties of the number seven. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 7 03:41:30 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:41:30 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Killing (was Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136801 > Cindy: > > "Death" of DD's hand: Ring destroyed--probably would have > > killed DD if he wasn't so skilled. > > Possible death of RAB: In an attempt to destroy the locket? > Valky: > Oh yeah I never looked at it that way, and I am glad you did Cindy. > Now you mention it, yes, there was a death in the Chamber which > would explain to me why neither Ginny nor Harry had to die to > destroy the Diary, which didn't sit well with me because I was > almost sure that Voldemort would somehow force a death, no matter > what. As for the possible death of R.A.B., now that *does* make a > lot of sense Cindy, well thought out, I say. Voldie's locket would > gladly kill anyone who tried to make it give up its treasure, > that's its job. And checking down the list of Voldemorts style, DD > had enough trouble with the first two protections so I imagine > another wizard, after all we are lead to understand that DD is > considerably talented, another wizard might not even survive the > first one. (Regulus and Roosters) Jen: Nice thread, Valky. The idea of the Horcrux requiring a death to destroy it really fits with the Voldemort profile we learned via the Pensieve memories. About the locket, if the locket at 12 GP is the actual Horcrux, I've wondered why it wouldn't open and why Slytherin's mark wasn't mentioned. Harry would notice that. It could be plot protection of course . So I had two opposing ideas. One that RAB did indeed destroy the Horcrux at the expense of his life and that in turn destroyed the mark on the locket. OR, the locket is still a Horcrux and RAB was only able to get it to safety before dying of the potion or because Voldemort got to him or whatever. That might explain why it doesn't open. But it doesn't explain why no one mentioned the mark--they all handled it, trying to open it. Either they didn't take notice because everything was Slytherin-related or it's not the right locket, either. Although at this point I do have to agree with MS Beadsley from post #136602, that it would take more than one book to explore Harry finding all the remaining Horcruxes and destroying them, let alone JKR wrapping up the dangling plot lines. Her suggestion was Snape's role in the story will be to round up at least a few of the Horcruxes for Harry, under the guise of helping Voldemort increase protection around the Horcruxes. And who better to deconstruct the hexes and protections around the Horcruxes, possibly even sacrificing himself in the end? Eye for an eye. Snape would like that. ;-) Jen From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 03:50:05 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:50:05 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136802 "Jen Reese" wrote: > Just saw your post before sending this Seraquel--we might be going > in different directions, but all of it will lead somewhere, right?!? Saraquel: Here have my last blowup armband to keep your hope afloat! Jen: > But the potion, to me the potion sealed the deal for the cave scene > being exactly what we see--a Voldemort creation, located by someone > prior to DD & Harry, and meant to kill and forever conceal any > persons skilled (and lucky***) enough to find the cave. > > That scene with DD demanding Harry promise to do whatever it takes > to get the locket, including tipping the potion into his 'protesting > mouth', then watching Harry have to do so---that scene was > excruciating for me. I feel 100% certain DD did not plan that as a > training exercise or that he knew to expect the potion. > Saraquel: Yes Jen, I do agree. The potion does seem to be a Voldemort special. However, there are other problems with the training exercise scenario. (Did you pick up Valky's contribution to how RAB found out about the cave and my response?) But I actually think that DD would go that far in a training exercise, in fact he would set up the exercise specifically to do that. Harry is going to have to be that tough. Jen: > Looking at it that way, there really is a possibility the locket was > switched from the start. Voldemort had someone with him to assist > making the potion, perhaps, and whether or not that person was RAB, > the Fake!Locket with the note was the one making it into the basin > (although I still have a very hard time thinking 1) Voldemort would > allow anyone to help him and 2) He wouldn't see the locket being > replaced). Saraquel: Oh Jen, I'd love this to be right, I really would, but..... I'm afraid I think your own objections state the case against so eloquently! > > The potion itself. Bleh. I've looked through every section I can > think of for an ingredient, a creature, *something* to explain the > potion. > Or Merrylinks had a good idea in post #135371, that the potion makes > you see the future, specifically your own death. That's a very > Voldemortian idea, isn't it? He expects everyone should fear death > as much as he does. A while ago I posted something on the potion, then reposted part of it again in answer to one of Cathy's posts. So I'll add it here, but there may well be people who have seen this before ? please feel free to skip it!! And I promise, really, this is the last time I'll put it in one of my posts, but it does contain some useful stuff and a starting point for speculation. To me the complexities of the cave scene are such a key. There is the whole question of whose potion is it, are there memories stored in it, and what is happening to DD when he drinks it. I've got quite a few ideas about the potion, and have posted on this topic before, but my ideas change as I try to unravel its complexity. But, it is possible to make one theory about DDs ramblings if we assume that the potion DD takes is the one that he thinks he is going to take. (which in no way accounts for the - the original potion has been drunk by RAB and it is the replacement that DD is drinking - possibility. Unless you take into the account Ron's Felix Felicis experience of experiencing what he thought he ought to experience after taking that potion. You see what I mean about complexities!) All quotes from UK ED Before he drinks the potion DD says to Harry: Ch 26, p532 "I should have said, he would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island, He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." So what potions would we put in to get that result? PS Pb edition ch8 p103 "For your information Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." This is also the potion which Harry made so brilliantly in HBP using Snape's potion book. This would keep someone alive, but leave them lying at the foot of the basin. Its colour is the palest of pink (HBP p 181) Veritaserum would of course ensure that they reveal their secrets. Veritaserum is colourless and odourless (HBP ch12 p175) There may well be another potion or potions involved here, as the colour of the potion in the basin is emerald green and luminescent. I'm sure that I've read of Hermione successfully making something like this, but I can't find it. Also, blending potions, may well not be the same as blending paint colours!! The luminescence of the potion could also indicate memories - can you add them to potions? and on p530 Harry says "he saw the light as coming from a stone basin rather like the Pensieve" There is also one interesting remark, which might well be a clue on p535 it says "Dumbledore drank, as though it was an antidote Harry offered him " But quite where that leads I don't know. If we watch the effect of the potion on DD, we see that half way through the fourth goblet he is described: (HBP Ch26, p534) "His face was twitching as though he were deeply asleep, but dreaming a horrible dream." Now, assuming that Vertaserum is in the mix and Voldemort wants to find out DD's motives for getting the Horcrux, what do we make of what DD is saying. Well, I too thought it could well be DD's memory of Snape recanting. Although I was impressed by comment Digger made in his/her post about the torture of the children. BUT, if this is the memory of Snape's recanting, it really fits incredibly well with the Vertaserum theory. Remember, Voldemort wants to know why anyone would be intent on emptying the basin. Why does DD want to get the Horcrux? He wants to make sure that Harry survives. Why is Harry likely not to survive? Other than the fact that there might be more Horcruxes out there, the main thing in DDs mind is that Voldemort has chosen to believe the prophecy and acted upon it. If he had not chosen to act upon it there would be no problem for Harry. Ch23 p476 "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says in only significant because Voldemort made it so. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him ? and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!" Therefore DD reveals his true reason for trying to get the Horcrux in the basin is tied up with the interpretation of the prophecy and Harry's involvement. It is NOT just to try and destroy Voldemort. Hence, his memory of the first time he learned that Voldemort was going to act on what Snape had told him. Hope that's clear. Saraquel Who is battling on even though the case seems hopeless. And who is now going to scrape her fiddle at The Scottish Fiddle Club. From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 7 04:08:04 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Brenda) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 04:08:04 -0000 Subject: Is Harry really capable of great love? In-Reply-To: <20050806225717.50645.qmail@web54107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, patricia bindrim wrote: > > Ramya wrote: > > > So, what makes Harry's capacity to love so great or > > any different > > from others? > > > > I believe Harry is capable of great love because of > all that he has been through. I also believe he has great > inner strength with all that he has faced with since > he has came to Hogswart. > > > Patricia Luckdragon now: Maybe it is not only Harry's capacity for love, but the combined love of all of those who rally round him and support him. He will be filled with love for Ginny, Hermione, Ron, The Weasleys, Lupin, and even those he lost: his parent's, Sirius, Dumbledore. Perhaps the way to Vanquish LV in the end is the same way his mother attempted to in the first book, however; she did not know about the horcrux's. Once the divided pieces of soul are destroyed Harry will have to give his life to save those he loves, and this time he will take the last piece(s) of LV's soul with him. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 04:21:31 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 04:21:31 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave and let's start on the potion! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136804 Saraquel: Really glad you've come on board the leaky fishing boat, Valky! Valky: Glad to be aboard. I dug some fresh worms for us. >Valky wrote: >Dumbledore had deduced he *might* be going to a place where a >Horcrux had been already found. Saraquel Yes, this would fit with the DD uses the cave as training theory which I feel is a good one. >Valky >Say for example Mundungus sold the Locket to Aberforth and during one >of DD's short drinks at Hogsmeade he recognised it.. Voila!! another >Horcrux. Aberforth presenting the Locket to him (or other such >means of DD gathering the right information) Saraquel: But when they get back and the Dark Mark is over the tower and DD knows that there is a real possibility of his death (which there is whether you believe DD knew about the UV or not, DEs in the school mean possible murder) why does he not tell Harry the status of the real Horcrux!Locket and where it is? He does have time, and it seems some renewed energy ? when they are flying up to the tower. It is also of life and death importance (and mission critical, Batman) for Harry to know whether the Horcrux is active or destroyed and its whereabouts. Harry having this bit of knowledge is more important than whether DD lives or dies and DD knows that, I just can't think he would leave that to chance. Valky: I agree. Which is why I have another angle on this that just might work. The crucial question is: Just how long has Mung been selling goods to Aberforth *really*? What if some time ago, even as long as since OOtP, Mung didn't *show* Aberforth or DD this gold locket he'd found at Grimmauld place, but instead in all his bragging he had boasted of the wares that he could get his hands on *including* a Gold Locket with the Slytherin Emblem on it. This may be why Aberforth has been buying goods from Mung, and getting friendly with him. Because he *wants* that locket, but so far for all the boasting Mung has done he still hasn't come up with the goods. At this point the Dumbledore Brothers don't know exactly where Mung has seen this object. Albus probably not even knowing that it's at Grimmauld Place because Mung steals from everywhere and is constantly acquiring fresh stock for his seedy sales business from anywhere he can get it. So The DD Brothers sit back and wait for Mung to bring the locket to Aberforth, but he never does. During the year of HBP Harry, Ron and Hermione notice that Mung has been stealing from Sirius' collection. DD gives himself a forehead slap *SLAP* "Now why didn't I think of that before." He says, so he searches for traces of the Horcrux at Grimmauld place. He finds traces, but no Locket. So he returns to Hogwarts without it. By now DD's time is quickly running out and he senses that he will have to act quickly. So on the fly he devises the plan to take Harry through the cave. He probably hopes that he'll get a short while with Harry after he's revived from whatever curse he's got to take on to get there, so he can sit down with Harry and prompt him to unravel the clues that they'd just found. But he knows also that there is a real danger he won't be able to. However, *just quickly explaining to Harry* what that Locket fiasco was all about is not a real good option. The reason is because sponfeeding Harry the answers won't prepare him for the hardest task that he ulitimately *must* face alone. So it's either give Harry the opportunity to figure them out while DD's alive, or leave it to Harry after DD's death. I know that's thin, but the notion that Harry really does need to work through the clue himself to prepare him for facing Voldemort is a strong canon point so it may hold out over the discrepancy of those few minutes when DD might have been able to tell Harry everything all over again. Valky wrote >4. The fake locket may hold clues to the beginning of the trail of >Horcruxes. I am supposing that DD >snatched the locket up so quickly at the cave because he always >intended to keep from Harry that it was a fake until Harry was in a >position to benefit from the clue. Saraquel: Sorry Valky, but I don't think I'm understanding you here. It reads to me as though you are saying, even if DD was dying he wouldn't tell Harry about the Horcrux!Locket because he's hoping there will be a clue in the Fake!Locket. If that's what you meant then I think I've answered it above. If it isn't, could you elucidate for me. It seems to me that the "how did RAB know about the cave?" question is not going to be answered by what we know so far, which is why I think that the Fake!Locket was planted theory is worth something. I hope that JKRs explanation isn't going to be, "someone" followed Voldemort to the cave when he first hid the Horcrux, that would be really disappointing. Valky: Yes well, that clue might not be there, or it might be there. In any case it's not the crucial clue that I think DD counted on. I believe that DD at least hoped the Fake Locket would lead Harry to hypothesise that it migt have come from Grimmauld place somehow. Perhaps hoping that it would have the Black Family Cest or some mark of ownership that would lead Harry to search his house for further clues. And moreover and most importantly he hoped that this mark of the Black family that he hoped would be somewhere hidden on or within the locket, would prompt Harry to search his memory for the biggest clue of all... Aberforth. Now however you take Ab.D., ESE! ESG! or even ESI!, it doesn't matter here either. ESG!Ab is a resource and friend for Harry who may help him on his quest. ESE!Ab could still prove useful in finding the Locket and ESI!Ab can at least serve as part of the memory of Mung selling stuff from Sirius place helping Harry to sniff out a trail. Personally I like the notion that this locket was DD's clue to Harry that he is not alone in going after Voldie's Horcruxes and that along the way he will find others like R.A.B and Aberforth who are willing to share his burden with him. Valky From Nanagose at aol.com Sun Aug 7 04:29:02 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 04:29:02 -0000 Subject: Snape Lying to Bellatrix (was: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136806 > Magda wrote: > It is noticeable that he tells the sisters nothing that isn't > already public knowledge (albeit a rather limited public). And it's > noticeable too that he claims that Dumbledore's hand was injured > at the MoM during the battle when he knows fully well that it was > injured getting the ring. Christina I was sure somebody would bring up the Foe-Glass in talking about Snape lying to Bellatrix, but I haven't seen it yet. I find it interesting though. (HBP, US, page 28) "Think!" said Snape, impatient again. "Think! By waiting two hours, just two hours, I ensured that I could remain at Hogwarts as a spy! By allowing Dumbledore to think that I was only returning to the Dark Lord's side because I was ordered to, I have been able to pass information on Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix ever since! Consider, Bellatrix: The Dark Mark had been growing stronger for months. I knew he must be about to return, all the Death Eaters knew! I had plenty of time to think about what I wanted to do, to plan my next move, to escape like Karkaroff, didn't I?" (end quote) So Snape basically tells Bella that he knew LV was on the rise and consciously decided to wait to go to him until DD told him to, thereby protecting his position as a spy at Hogwarts. However, we know that can't be true because of Snape's appearance in Fake!Moody's Foe-Glass: (GoF, US, page 678) "The foggy shapes in the Foe-Glass were sharpening, had become more distinct. Harry could see the outlines of three people over Moody's shoulder, moving closer and closer....[snip] Moody was thrown backward onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody's face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape, and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass." (end quote) The Foe-Glass shows one's enemies. If Snape had intended all along to rejoin the Death Eaters, he would have technically been on Fake!Moody's side and shouldn't have shown up in the mirror. The fact that he does appear shows that his allegiance was not with LV at that point, making his remark to Bella a lie. Again, my apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but I've been keeping up with (most of) the mail and did a search, and I haven't see it. Christina From saintbacchus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 05:12:07 2005 From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 05:12:07 -0000 Subject: Fake Wand = Fake Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: << Can it be such an important comment if it doesn't appear in the original script - which is how I would view the UK edition. Why was it changed for the US editions? >> That is the question: why was it added? Just because the American version contained a change doesn't mean that wasn't what Rowling wanted all along. After all, it is the second printing of GoF - not the first - that contains the correct order of phantoms appearing out of Voldemort's wand. Actually, the fact that the American version contains the line while the original British edition does not suggests just the opposite to me that it does to you: that Rowling (or somebody, but she seems to be particular about what goes and stays) felt it was important enough to add. Of course, we won't know for sure until book 7! From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 05:26:16 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 01:26:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136811 Sandra writes: > To give yet another example (how many is it going to take?) > How about if Darth Vader and Obi Wan are having their duel in > Star Wars 4 like they did, and just before Obi gets killed, Darth is > thrown to one side by a mysterious Jedi Mind Trick from a > mysterious person.. who turns out to be Obi Wan from 2 hours in > the future who only got there because he survived the duel!! It > doesn't work, it's a cock-up, an enormous oversight, a lack of > clear thinking, a great big mistake, a twist too far, and a major > loophole. I find this entire conversation fascinating, especially since people are approaching it so scientifically while JKR obviously just didn't give it that much thought. (After all, this was the woman who pulled out the timeturner deus ex machina in the first place.) In my opinion, everyone is approaching this just a little too scientifically. If you just take into account the fact that Western thought generally accepts time as linear, things fit quite nicely, though not necessarily scientifically. Imagine that the HP universe is a singular timeline. Imagine that timeline as an actual line. When Harry & Hermione travels back in time, they create that line to loop back onto itself, thereby creating a period when, for all intents and purposes, there are two timelines in progress, though really, there's one timeline running over itself. The timeline, therefore, is polluted by itself until the point when there is just one each of Harry & Hermione traveling around. That's how I see time in most Western books (or at least the ones where the author clearly hasn't thought through time travel & its potential problems). It's a theory that's worked quite well for me. Granted, it plays into the multiple universe theory (or is that many universe theory? I don't remember; anyone got a copy of their quantum theories book handy?), and that creates problems of its own, but that's neither here or there in the context of this conversation. ~Ali From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 05:29:29 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 05:29:29 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136812 Betsy wrote: I think, for me, it seems like part of a somewhat disturbing trend. Fred and George feed a firecracker to a salamander, they cause a team- mate to nearly bleed to death. They nearly kill a fellow student for trying to take house points from them. They help, though very indirectly, Death Eaters invade Hogwarts. They also help Harry sneak out of Hogwarts when a mass murderer is after him. At the same time they're highly entertaining and Harry likes them quite a bit. So while I'm personally a bit disturbed by them (and consequently have a lot of sympathy for Percy) I'm not sure that JKR means them to be anything other than merry pranksters. What strikes me as a rather disturbing list of injured parties JKR may look at as jolly good fun. Honestly, I have no idea how I'm supposed to take them. Once again, I guess we'll have to wait for book 7 and JKR's end game. vmonte responds: The twins are awful, but Percy is good? Why do you feel sorry for Percy? Percy is a jerk! And doesn't he choose, out of his own free will, to be a jerk? His father is dying in the hospital during OOTP (at least there was a good possiblity that that might happen) and Percy refuses to see him because of a stupid fight? Or is it because of his job and who he is trying to impress? Percy is blinded by his own ambition. He does not realize that it's family that's important, not the corporate ladder. Instead of helping them out and the Order (there is a war going on isn't there?), Percy is more concerned about "upward mobility." The twins do stupid things but they are not DE material. (Most of their stupidity has to do with their age.) I admit, I like them. In fact, I love the entire Weasley clan. They are a warm and loving family. They all have their faults, but they are wonderful. I love Molly too, and so does her whole family, including Harry. Molly has a good heart, and she loves her husband and kids. Arthur is also a wonderful man of great moral character. Take a good look at all the other families depicted in Harry Potter. You should be seeing, at least by now, that there is a big difference between the Weasleys, the Dursleys, the Riddles, the Malfoys, and the Princes. What the Weasley's lack in wealth is made up 100 times in their love for each other and family. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135990 Betsy wrote: Well, speaking as someone totally and completely *thrilled* with what JKR did for Draco in HBP (does that make me a "Draco lover"?) I got a bit of guilty pleasure out of Draco's "revenge" on Harry. For two reasons: First, after the many, many, *many* times Harry has stomped Draco, it was nice to finally see Draco get a bit of his own back. (That was the "guilty" part of my pleasure, I will admit.) vmonte responds: You don't see a difference between Harry's behavior and Draco's? This train scene said more to me about Draco than any other scene in any other HP book. Draco stuns Harry (Harry is immobilized) and then Draco smashes his foot into Harry's face breaking his nose. Draco then takes Harry's cloak and covers him up, and walks away. Pretty cowardly don't you think? He attacks a man when he is already down? (Remind you of the Dumbledore scene with Snape?) This is not a fair fight, and it shows Draco's real nature IMO. The bathroom scene with Harry also upset me. Harry was a complete idiot for using a spell he had no idea about. It frightened me, and it frightened Harry. Good! He deserved to be scared. What kind of idiot does something without thinking through the consequences of their actions? (Oh wait, this is like Sirius's prank). Still, there is a difference between Harry's horror at what he has done (probably the same horror that motivated James into saving Snape) and Draco's reaction to what he himself has done, no? Draco is a lot like Snivellus me thinks! Oh yeah, I also like that when Dumbledore stuns Harry, it is to protect him from harm. Contrast that to Draco's stun. Vivian From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 7 06:36:38 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 06:36:38 -0000 Subject: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "solskjaer_crazy" wrote: Holly: > Unfortunately I can't rememer the quote and I can't remember where it > is (I think it's book 4 somewhere but I might be wrong) because I > haven't read the books in ages and am currently starting my first > read through after book 6 but isn't there a passage somewhere where > someone (I think one of the Weasleys or fake Moody) talks about the > Ministry authorising Aurors to use the unforgivables against people > and that this is being a bad thing in there opinion, almost as though > it brings them down to the level of the death eaters? I definitely > remember it being said because it's mentioned that Moody never did > use the unforgivables to bring people in and always bought them in > honestly. Geoff: It /is/ GOF and it's actually Sirius who makes these remarks: "Well, times like that bring out the best in some people and the worst in others. Crouch's principles might've been good in the beginning - I wouldn't know. He rose quickly through the Ministry and he started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's supporters. The Aurors were given new powers - powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the Dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence and authorised the use of the Unforgiveable Curses against suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark side." (GOF "Padfoot returns" p.457 UK edition) '"Well," said Sirius slowly, "I wouldn't put it past Mad-Eye to have searched every single teacher's office when he got to Hogwarts. He takes his Defence Against the Dark Arts seriously, Moody. I'm not sure he trusts anyone at all and after the things he's seen, it's not surprising. I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed if he could help it. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough, but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters. Crouch though... he's a different matter..."' (ibid. pp.461-62) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 7 06:46:55 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 06:46:55 -0000 Subject: Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alm48er" wrote: alm: > Anyway, Chapter 1 was very amusing with all the Prime Minister funny > stuff about Major/Blair, and a good way to recap the series so far and > introduce Scrimgeur. However, that tidbit about Shacklebolt was more > than just an amusing joke about wizard competence, I think. Do you? geoff: Just to be accurate for the benefit of non-UK readers, Chapter 1 is set in the summer of 1996. The Prime Minister was John Major, in his last year of office (and the US President was, of course, Bill Clinton). Tony Blair was not elected until May 1997. So Blair/Bush analogies aren't strictly correct. It would be interesting to have a take on Blair meeting Rufus Scrimgeour... :-) From oppen at mycns.net Sun Aug 7 06:52:11 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 06:52:11 -0000 Subject: Merope Gaunt and Mayella Ewell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136815 When reading HBP, I was struck by how much the Gaunt household reminded me of a book I know very well---_To Kill a Mockingbird,_ and specifically the way the Ewells are described. (For those not familiar with the book, the Ewells are the evil white-trash family who precipitate much of the book's action---Bob Ewell's oldest daughter, Mayella, accuses a black man, Tom Robinson, of raping her.) Like the Ewells, the Gaunts have no mother, and their family is very poor and extremely dysfunctional. Like Mayella Ewell, Merope Gaunt wants something better than her horrible family (she's described as "trying to keep clean," unusually for an Ewell, and she keeps flowers in emulation of the respectable ladies of the town) and, like Mayella, Merope takes drastic action to get what she wants. (The rape accusation comes after Bob sees Mayella kissing a horrified Tom Robinson, and immediately claims that he was trying to rape her, even though she had precipitated the kiss against Tom's wishes.) If Mayella Ewell had been able to lay her hands on a love potion and get some "respectable" man in the community to ingest it, I'd bet US to Confederate dollars that she'd have done it in a heartbeat. This would have led to a serious scandal---people like the Ewells are absolutely at the bottom of the social scale in the Southern US; someone like Jem Finch (brother of _TKAM_'s narrator) could maybe marry a member of the "cracker" class without too much friction, but having anything at all to do with Mayella Ewell would outrage his family. Both women---Mayella Ewell and Merope Gaunt---are greatly to be pitied, the victims of their horribly dysfunctional, mentally-tweaked (at least) fathers. At the same time, the things they do are undeniably evil. If some woman I'd normally never touch fed me a love potion, and had her way with me, I'd be extremely upset when/if the potion wore off---it would be a form of rape, even though no violence was used. Does anybody else who's read _Mockingbird_ care to comment---or am I the only one who sees this parallel? *donning Howlerproof armour* Eric Oppen (www.livejournal.com/users/ravenclaw_eric) From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 07:10:25 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hagrid's Magic (new questions) In-Reply-To: <1123324185.749.9422.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050807071025.47496.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136816 CathyD wrote: Being just in the middle of a re-read of OotP, Hagrid is still *not* allowed to do magic in the open. He says so when he's telling the Trio about his trip to find the Giants. "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic an' we knew the Ministry'd be lookin' fer a reason ter run us in." (pg 377 Can Ed) Morgan again: This is an interesting point. How can a wizard who is not allowed to do magic be made a professor at Hogwarts? And also, why is he not allowed to do magic? Does anyone remember what exactly he was expelled for? - was it for opening the chamber or just for having Aragog in the castle? Once it was obviously Riddle who opened the chamber, why wasn't he allowed to do magic? --Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 07:17:28 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bonder and Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: <1123354956.2250.98198.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050807071728.23177.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136817 Julie wrote: "However, I began to wonder what role the Bonder plays in the vow. Are there any consequences to the Bonder if the vow is broken?" Morgan here: I wonder if the bonder is resonsible for killing the vow taker if the vow is broken. There really isn't much explanation of how this works, so this is just conjecture. But, have we seen any other kind of magic that would automatically kill someone? There has to be a purpose to having the bonder. If the magic was automatic, why would you need a bonder? --Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samwisep at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 07:36:59 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:36:59 -0000 Subject: Snape thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136818 Chris wrote: Anyway, when the prediction was made, Snape saw it as an opportunity to get James killed. He told Voldemort, perhaps empathising that James had a child. James and his spawn (Harry) would be wiped from the Earth; lily would be allowed to live. (Speculation; did Voldemort swear an Unbreakable Oath with Snape for that? Was that why the spell bounced back?) Now me: I think your idea of VL and Snape taking an unbreakable vow, which is why when VL tried to kill Harry/Lily it bounced back on him is,as Ron would say, BLOODY BRILLIANT! I think you are 100% right. With all you amazing thinkers out there, I won't have to wait until book 7, because you'll have the plot all laid out for me long before! LOL Snapeo'phile From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Sun Aug 7 08:30:13 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (profuloth) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 08:30:13 -0000 Subject: Snape Lying to Bellatrix (was: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136819 > Christina wrote: > The Foe-Glass shows one's enemies. If Snape had intended all along to > rejoin the Death Eaters, he would have technically been on > Fake!Moody's side and shouldn't have shown up in the mirror. The fact > that he does appear shows that his allegiance was not with LV at that > point, making his remark to Bella a lie. The question here is this: Does a foe glass show you your true enemies or your perceived enemies? Remember when Fake!Moody says their is nothing he hates more than a DE that walked free, those lines were true for both Real!Moody and Fake!Moody. As a result, Fake! Moody (Crouch Jr if you prefer) would perceive Snape as an enemy despite Snape's alliance with Voldy. Jason From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 08:54:29 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 08:54:29 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Magic (new questions) In-Reply-To: <20050807071025.47496.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136820 CathyD wrote: Being just in the middle of a re-read of OotP, Hagrid is still *not* allowed to do magic in the open. He says so when he's telling the Trio about his trip to find the Giants. "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic an' we knew the Ministry'd be lookin' fer a reason ter run us in." (pg 377 Can Ed) Morgan again: This is an interesting point. How can a wizard who is not allowed to do magic be made a professor at Hogwarts? And also, why is he not allowed to do magic? Does anyone remember what exactly he was expelled for? - was it for opening the chamber or just for having Aragog in the castle? Once it was obviously Riddle who opened the chamber, why wasn't he allowed to do magic? vmonte responds: Interesting, which means that Hagrid might actually be a very powerful wizard, but because of his personality we may be underestimating him. Doesn't Dumbledore say in SS/PS that he trusts Hagrid with his life? This comment has been nagging at me. Also, why tell us what Dumbledore's favorite jam is? And why is there Draught potion sitting around and not been used? (Unless someone uses it in book 7.) Just what kind of magic is involved in time-turning any way? Is it elf magic? Or, will somone attempt to fool the Order into believing that DD is back? Is there another metamorph around that we don't know about? Or will polyjuice be involved? Vivian From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 7 09:08:59 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:08:59 -0000 Subject: Homorphus/AD+PP/Ginny-Neville-Luna /Thomas/Zonko's/age17/Fleur+Bill/Sir Nick Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136821 Merrylinks wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135986 : << But, I wonder, why doesn't someone try the Homorphus Charm on Bill? Or for that matter why don't they try it on Lupin? >> I agree that the Homorphus Charm is real, because Lockhart stole his exploits, not invented them. I don't agree that the Homorphus Charm is a cure for lycanthropism, because if it were, someone would have tried it on Lupin by now, either his parents, who 'tried everything' or his clever friends who became Animagi for his sake. At first I thought it might put an end to the werewolf transformations permanently, but at the cost of tremendous brain damage to the person, but then I realized it might be the same spell that Black and Lupin used to make Pettigrew leave his rat form. So now I think that it turns the transformed human back into his/her human form for only a few moments. That's not a cure for lycanthropism, but it is long enough for the villagers to recognize one of their neighbors. Now that they know who the werewolf is, they can deal with him while he is still a mere human. One would hope that they would lock him in a secure cage before moonrise on the Full Moon night and release him when he turned human again, but I expect they probably just killed him in his sleep in his bed at New Moon. Casmir wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136030 : << I thought it odd that time was taken for Ginny to draw attention to Mdme Pomfrey's reaction to DD's death. Then I recently read this quote from the book: "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed this much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs." I remember when I read that the first time, and how odd it was that something so benign would cause him to blush. But when you put the two together.... I wonder......Maybe they had a secret brewing... >> This is a forbidden "I agree" post. I've long thought that DD and Pomfrey had something long-term going on that was more than a flirtation and less than a big romance, that if he's having sex with anyone (at his age), it's with Poppy. Vivian wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136052 : << we hear Ginny standing up for Neville (snip) 'I'm nobody,' said Neville hurriedly. 'No you're not,' said Ginny sharply. 'Neville Longbottom - Luna Lovegood. Luna's in my year, but in Ravenclaw.' >> Unlike everyone else, I have never seen that exchange as Ginny standing up for Neville. I have always seen Neville's "I'm nobody" NOT as low self-image, but as an attempt to avoid giving Loony Luna his name because she is SO uncools that even Neville can't stand the prospect of her greeting him by name in front of other students some day. And Ginny is not letting him get away with that level of rudeness to Luna. I imagine Ginny doesn't allow anyone to be rude to Luna in her presence. That's probably part of why Luna thinks Ginny is nice. Susan McGee wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136315 : << Mr. Thomas, biological father of Dean Thomas, who abandoned Dean as an infant. >> I think "Name unknown, biological father of Dean Thomas". I think he might be using his stepfather's surname. It would have been his mother's and stepfather's decision, as it seems he was too young to even remember his first father, let alone choose his own surname. Auria wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136340 : << Why was Zonko's joke shop boarded up? >> Maybe Weasley's Wizard Wheezes was so successful that all the other competition was put out of business. Does anyone remember if Gambol and Japes was still on Diagon Alley? Laura Welsh wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136348 : << Why is it that wizards and witches come of age at 17, rather than at age 18, as muggles do? >> I think that the wizarding folk just LOVE prime numbers. Like their money is TWENTY-NINE Knuts to a Sickle and SEVENTEEN Sickles to a Galleon, and SEVEN is all over the place. Susan McGee wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136376 : << At first, she doesn't like Fleur, but changes her mind when it becomes clear how devoted Fleur is to Bill. >> Fleur is determined to marry Bill and care for him even after he is disfigured, thus showing that she didn't want him only for his looks. That convinces Molly that Fleur sincerely loves Bill, but eventually it occured to me that it is not real proof. If Fleur had chosen Bill for his money (curse-breaking appears to be a well-paid job; I don't think all those fashionable clothes came cheap), his disfigurement wouldn't make a difference to her. Sandy Ms*Bead*sley wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136602 : << My Dad died pretty unexpectedly, two weeks short of the age of 70, on June 1, 2005. >> Ow! I'd like to say something to acknowledge your pain, but all that comes to my mind is that the pain of bereavement is the price of love. << and still leave about nine chapters for JKR to explain all the REALLY important stuff like how Sir Nicholas became nearly headless!" >> JKR explained Nick's near headlessness on her website: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=11 From Nanagose at aol.com Sun Aug 7 09:43:02 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:43:02 -0000 Subject: Snape Lying to Bellatrix (was: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136822 > Christina wrote: > The Foe-Glass shows one's enemies. If Snape had intended all along > to rejoin the Death Eaters, he would have technically been on > Fake!Moody's side and shouldn't have shown up in the mirror. The > fact that he does appear shows that his allegiance was not with LV > at that point, making his remark to Bella a lie. Jason: > The question here is this: Does a foe glass show you your true > enemies or your perceived enemies? Christina: That's a really good point. The workings of the Foe-Glass are never explained in detail, so it's possible it only shows what you believe to be your enemies, although it seems that it would be much more useful if the mirror could detect that itself (the same way that a Sneakoscope is valuable because it detects the untrustworthy people for you). I agree that Fake!Moody probably wouldn't have much love for Snape, due to his comments regarding the other Death Eaters (and Snape has most definitely been walking free!). However, even if Fake!Moody hated Snape, that doesn't necessarily make him his "foe." I think the purpose of the mirror is to show people that might be a threat to you, not people that you just don't like (or who don't like you). Fake!Moody might hate Death Eaters that have "walked free," but that doesn't mean that they are a danger to him. In fact, they would probably be the least likely to want to hurt him. Even if the Foe-Glass *does* run off of Fake!Moody's perceptions, would he have seen the Death Eaters as a threat to himself? Having the Foe-Glass showing threats also explains why Harry never shows up in it himself- he might not be on Fake!Moody's side, but he's not a threat to him in the same way that a loyal-to-DD!Snape might be. Another very interesting tidbit: (GoF, US, page 679) "[Dumbledore] stepped into the office, placed a foot underneath Moody's unconscious body, and kicked him over onto his back, so that his face was visible. Snape followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." Why was Snape so interested in the Foe-Glass? When the three professors enter the room, DD goes to Fake!Moody, McGonagall goes to Harry, and Snape goes to a mirror? Huh? It really makes you wonder just what Snape was thinking when he was staring into it. Christina From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 7 10:14:53 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 06:14:53 -0400 Subject: Hagrid's Magic (new questions) Message-ID: <007101c59b38$daa1ae30$39c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136823 >>CathyD wrote: Being just in the middle of a re-read of OotP, Hagrid is still *not* allowed to do magic in the open. He says so when he's telling the Trio about his trip to find the Giants. "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic an' we knew the Ministry'd be lookin' fer a reason ter run us in." (pg 377 Can Ed) Morgan replied: >>Morgan again: This is an interesting point. How can a wizard who is not allowed to do magic be made a professor at Hogwarts? And also, why is he not allowed to do magic? Does anyone remember what exactly he was expelled for? - was it for opening the chamber or just for having Aragog in the castle? Once it was obviously Riddle who opened the chamber, why wasn't he allowed to do magic? CathyD again: Well, Hagrid's class is mostly showing the kids various magical beasts. Would he need magic to do that? He doesn't appear to need magic to do his *normal* gamekeeper duties. And we know that Dumbledore gives him permission to do certain *special* magic (placing the charm around the chicken coop), Maybe DD gives him permission to do what he would need to teach his classes, as well. Doesn't matter, really, what he was expelled for. By the end of CoS he was recognised by Fudge and all to have not been the one who opened the Chamber the first time, set the beast loose, killed Myrtle. Cleared of all charges/suspicions, etc. However, he had still be expelled in 3rd year and so was not a qualified wizard. Still not allowed to do magic. Getting past fifth year and gaining a few OWLs appears to be what qualifies a person to do magic in the WW. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 7 10:15:54 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 06:15:54 -0400 Subject: Swimming Message-ID: <007501c59b38$ff66acc0$39c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136824 Lucy and Stephen Dawson: >>Silly question, but when did Harry learn to swim well enough to follow Dumbledore on a swim fully clothed through an icy sea?? CathyD now: I wondered that myself. Not only that, he dragged Dumbledorethrough the icy sea, fully clothed to get back out of the cave. Had to look back to GoF to see if I was right that Harry said he couldn't swim more than a couple laps of that pool/tub in the prefect's bathroom, he was terrified at the thought of going into the lake. Dudley had had swimming lessons but he didn't. Must've taken lessons sometime during fifth year, don'cha think. ;) Maybe we're supposed to think that since he swam so well in the lake to get Ron that now he's completely confident in his swimming ability!? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 10:37:39 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 10:37:39 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136825 Vmonte, Rizza, may I suggest you check what someone wrote, next time, before attempting to psychoanalyse them? And Roxanne, you wrote: "When we start talking about Harry as a sexual predator I think it's safe to say that we're no longer discussing canon." Del replies: You can't just SAY it, you have to SHOW it. So please show me where it says that Harry CANNOT turn into a sexual predator or anything of the sort. You pretend to be discussing canon, so by all means, give me CANON evidence supporting what is otherwise only your belief. Roxanne wrote: "Everyone reads HP (and any book or story) through their own filters. That's cool, but for the purpose of this list sticking to canon is probably the best way to go." Del replies: Sticking to canon, or sticking to YOUR VERSION of canon? For your information, I HAVE stuck to canon. If I haven't, please demonstrate so. Roxanne wrote: "If you find yourself talking more about your life than Harry's perhaps it's time to step back." Del replies: Please demonstrate that I have talked more about my own life than Harry's. You can't just accuse me of having done it, you have to prove it. Back to Vmonte and Rizza, now. Vmonte wrote: "You and I know that Harry is not a sexual predator--at least I think you don't?" My message 136124: "1. I DO *NOT* BELIEVE THAT HARRY IS ABUSING GINNY." Vmonte wrote: "And it's ok to feel upset because your ship did not come true." My message 136037: "How many times will I have to say it? I AM a H/G supporter, I ALWAYS was a H/G supporter. But that doesn't mean that I am going to accept this fake and cheap romance as The Real Deal. Just because I was bought to the idea long before HBP came out doesn't mean that JKR can screw it up like that." Addition: I think I'll turn into a Harry/Luna shipper. Much more fun and interesting. Vmonte wrote: "But it also seems to me that JKR is a VERY moral person and that she is trying to teach children some great lessons in her books. Imagine a book that teaches children to value family, friendship, and to be brave in the face of danger; to have tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the best in people." Del replies: * Value family: only when your family is on the right side. Draco Malfoy is shown as being decidedly wrong for following in his parents' steps, while Sirius is a hero for having renounced his evil family. * Value friends: ditto. Bad, bad Cho who remained friend with Marrietta, for example. * To be brave in the face of danger: all right for this one. * To have tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the best in people: I'll reserve my approval on those ones until Book 7. If it is shown in the last book that DD was a fool to give Snape a second chance, then I'll have to disagree with you. Vmonte wrote: "There is no way that JKR would make Harry a rapist or an abuser." Del replies: Agreed: there is no way *JKR* would make Harry a bad guy. That doesn't mean that the Harry we know couldn't turn into an abuser, in the hands of another writer. To me, there's a small but significant difference between saying "JKR won't make Harry be an abuser" and "Harry cannot be an abuser". Vmonte wrote: "I understand that you feel like you didn't get enough of Harry-with-Ginny to make it real for you, but it's another thing to start inventing scenarios that are just not there." Del replies: The positive romantic scenarios about Harry and Ginny are not there either. Hence my rants about that relationship being EMPTY: there's NOTHING there. Rizza wrote: "So I comprehend you perfectly well when you say anyone can be be predator, which means Harry could be, *IF* JKR had written him that way, but she didn't." Del replies: How do you know that she didn't, since we do not get to see a single scene of Harry and Ginny in their romantic relationship? I'm not saying the abuse is there. I'm just saying that we don't have to rule it out because JKR hasn't given us any ground to rule it out. The only reason we rule it out is because we ASSUME that she never intended to write Harry as an abuser. But then I also assumed that Harry would never even attempt to use one of the Unforgivable Curses... Rizza wrote: "I can see you're determined to believe the worst because you're experienced the worst, and so think it's possible of anyone. " Del replies: Which part of "I DO *NOT* BELIEVE THAT HARRY IS ABUSING GINNY" do you not understand? Rizza wrote: "I do think you could be more open-minded, and perhaps a little bit logical about this." Del replies: Who is being close-minded by refusing to consider a possibility that would be very real in RL? Who is being illogical by ruling out a possibility on the grounds of assumption instead of hard evidence? Rizza wrote: "I mean, it's one thing to have those implications about a minor character we hardly know, but we don't need to imply anything about Harry's character, especially something as big as this. We've had six years to get to know him and have been in and out of his mind more times than anyone can count. He's not an abusive person in the least." Del replies: Actually, it's PRECISELY because I've been in Harry's head for so long that I thought of the abuse scenario. I have seen things in Harry's behaviour towards other people that DO make me cringe, and that DO make me think that such a boy could turn into an abuser if he weren't protected by JKR's will. I have also learned in OoP not to assume anything about Harry. Based on the first four books, I would NEVER have imagined OoP!Harry. And yet he happened. I'll finish with those definitions (from dictionary.com): Speculation: 1. Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation. 2. A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture. 3. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition. Possible: 1. Capable of happening, existing, or being true without contradicting proven facts, laws, or circumstances. 2. Capable of occurring or being done without offense to character, nature, or custom. 4. Of uncertain likelihood. Theory: 1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. 4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory. 5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime. 6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture. Assumption: 3. The act of taking for granted: assumption of a false theory. 4. Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition: a valid assumption. Imagine: v. tr. 1. To form a mental picture or image of. 2. To think; conjecture: I imagine you're right. 3. To have a notion of or about without adequate foundation; fancy: She imagines herself to be a true artist. v. intr. 1. To employ the imagination. 2. To make a guess; conjecture. Conjecture: 1. Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork. 2. A statement, opinion, or conclusion based on guesswork: The commentators made various conjectures about the outcome of the next election. Sheesh! Del From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 7 10:49:49 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:49:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Swimming In-Reply-To: <007501c59b38$ff66acc0$39c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <007501c59b38$ff66acc0$39c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <42F5E74D.2050903@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136826 Cathy Drolet wrote: > Lucy and Stephen Dawson: > > >>>Silly question, but when did Harry learn to swim well enough to follow > > Dumbledore on a swim fully clothed through an icy sea?? > > CathyD now: > I wondered that myself. Not only that, he dragged Dumbledorethrough the icy sea, fully clothed to get back out of the cave. Had to look back to GoF to see if I was right that Harry said he couldn't swim more than a couple laps of that pool/tub in the prefect's bathroom, he was terrified at the thought of going into the lake. Dudley had had swimming lessons but he didn't. Must've taken lessons sometime during fifth year, don'cha think. ;) Maybe we're supposed to think that since he swam so well in the lake to get Ron that now he's completely confident in his swimming ability!? > digger: That part did not bother me. What I cannot understand is why DD and Harry could not apparate direct to the cave entrance and avoid the sea altogether. Also, why did Narcissa and Bellatrix apparate several streets away from Spinners End, instead of outside the front door? So we could overhear them bringing us up to date on the plot perhaps? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 11:06:17 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:06:17 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136827 vmonte wrote: "Percy is a jerk! And doesn't he choose, out of his own free will, to be a jerk? His father is dying in the hospital during OOTP (at least there was a good possiblity that that might happen) and Percy refuses to see him because of a stupid fight?" Del replies: Arthur was attacked during the night, and by 5am he was already out of danger. So unless you can prove that Percy was contacted during the night and refused to come, your accusation has no basis. By the time Percy most probably learned of the situation (when he went to work), Arthur was completely out of danger. And may I remind you that during the "stupid fight", Arthur totally and completely crushed Percy's pride by arguing *without any proof* that the only reason Percy had been promoted was so Fudge could spy on Arthur? Personally I don't see why Percy should make ANY efforts to reconcile with such an *unsupportive* family. Vmonte wrote: "He does not realize that it's family that's important, not the corporate ladder." Del replies: I don't see why Percy should consider his family to be important, considering how little they've ALWAYS all thought of him, except Molly? Vmonte wrote: "Instead of helping them out and the Order (there is a war going on isn't there?), Percy is more concerned about "upward mobility."" Del replies: Just because Percy is not helping the Order (does he even know about them?), doesn't mean he's not helping in the war efforts. Vmonte wrote: "In fact, I love the entire Weasley clan. They are a warm and loving family." Del replies: You love them all, except Percy, right? And they are warm and loving, except to Percy... Vmonte wrote: "You don't see a difference between Harry's behavior and Draco's? This train scene said more to me about Draco than any other scene in any other HP book. Draco stuns Harry (Harry is immobilized) and then Draco smashes his foot into Harry's face breaking his nose. Draco then takes Harry's cloak and covers him up, and walks away. Pretty cowardly don't you think? He attacks a man when he is already down?" Del replies: What about the Twins deliberately walking on the unsconscious Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle? What about James and Sirius attacking Snape when he's already down? As usual, it's awful when Draco does it, but the good guys always have a good excuse, huh? And the fact that Harry was *spying* on Draco is not a good excuse, I suppose? Vmonte wrote: "This is not a fair fight, and it shows Draco's real nature IMO." Del replies: If an unfair fight at 15/16 shows Draco's real nature, I wonder what an unfair fight at the same age shows about James' and Sirius's real nature? Vmonte wrote: "Still, there is a difference between Harry's horror at what he has done (probably the same horror that motivated James into saving Snape) and Draco's reaction to what he himself has done, no?" Del replies: Draco broke Harry's nose. Harry cut Draco's face and chest open. Not exactly on the same plane, I'd say. Del, who will soon have to leave for at least 3 days, so I apologise for not being able to answer any post in the next days. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 11:18:14 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:18:14 -0000 Subject: Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Chris wrote: > Anyway, when the prediction was made, Snape saw it as an opportunity > to > get James killed. He told Voldemort, perhaps empathising that James > had a child. James and his spawn (Harry) would be wiped from the > Earth; > lily would be allowed to live. (Speculation; did Voldemort swear an > Unbreakable Oath with Snape for that? Was that why the spell bounced > back?) > > > Now me: > I think your idea of VL and Snape taking an unbreakable vow, which is > why when VL tried to kill Harry/Lily it bounced back on him is,as Ron > would say, BLOODY BRILLIANT! I think you are 100% right. With all you > amazing thinkers out there, I won't have to wait until book 7, because > you'll have the plot all laid out for me long before! LOL > > Snapeo'phile Now Cindy: Excellent posts, it really made sense to me at first...and then I remembered chatter after the rebirthing scene in GOF: pg 653 AE "I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself...And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it..." If Voldemort had made an Unbreakable Vow, wouldn't he blame that instead of Lily's sacrifice? And, there's also the possibility that Voldemort's memory was jumbled and he doesn't remember taking the vow so he is speculating on how he ended up Spectral!Mort. A really good post Chris, but I'm not sure it works with what canon has revealed so far. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 11:56:11 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:56:11 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave and let's start on the potion! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > > >Valky wrote: > >Dumbledore had deduced he *might* be going to a place where a > >Horcrux had been already found. > > Saraquel > Yes, this would fit with the DD uses the cave as training theory > which I feel is a good one. > > > Valky: > > > Personally I like the notion that this locket was DD's clue to Harry > that he is not alone in going after Voldie's Horcruxes and that along > the way he will find others like R.A.B and Aberforth who are willing > to share his burden with him. > > Valky I agree Valky, Harry will need plenty of help to solve the Horcrux "riddles". It's been mentioned before, and after rereading the cave scene, I've come to the conclusion that R.A.B. probably did not drink the potion himself since the note left was well written and rational, not at all like the writing one would expect from someone who just experienced what DD went through. I've seen it posted elsewhere that if it is Regulus, he probably made Kreacher do the drinking. So even though Harry can't stand Kreacher, he will be of help if Harry orders him to give him information. I've also been considering that R.A.B. was framed, which could explain why he was killed, but I'm still thinking he died was in his attempt to destroy the locket--and I think Kreacher would have been witness. JKR has made it look like good ole sticky fingers Mung took the locket and sold it, but my money is on the twins. They were pilfering items from the Black mansion to learn their spells. Since they couldn't open the locket, it would rouse their curiousity to somehow learn its spell to turn it into some kind of gag item for their shop. If so, the two have a ticking time bomb on their hands which might kill them, OTH, they have shown themselves to be quite good at being patient in figuring things out. However, if you believe in what goes around comes around, Gred and Forge are due for a little of their own medicine. Cindy From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 11:59:23 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:59:23 -0000 Subject: Fleur+Bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136830 Rita (Catlady) wrote: > Fleur is determined to marry Bill and care for him even after he is > disfigured, thus showing that she didn't want him only for his looks. > That convinces Molly that Fleur sincerely loves Bill, but eventually > it occured to me that it is not real proof. If Fleur had chosen Bill > for his money (curse-breaking appears to be a well-paid job; I don't > think all those fashionable clothes came cheap), his disfigurement > wouldn't make a difference to her. Ginger adds: I hadn't thought of money being the attraction-other-than-looks factor. I noticed that Phlegm pointed out that his scars prove that he is a hero. To quote: "What do I care how he looks? I am good-looking enough for the both of us, I theenk! All these scars show is zat my husband is brave!" Aside from the immense relief that I'm sure we all felt in knowing that the beauty quotient was still intact, making them a legitimate couple (yes, that was sarcasm), she sees his scars as the mark of a hero. He got them by being brave. They were badges of honour. I have to wonder how she would have felt had he apparated to the Hog's Head for karoke night, had a few too many, decided to catch the Knight Bus home rather than risk splinching, and was standing with his wand-arm out, when he was attacked by a werewolf. Or worse, taking a leak in the street and had to be saved by someone else. Would she still love him? Would she still be thanking her lucky stars that he was marrying someone who knows how to cook raw meat? Or would she have been repulsed? I can't answer that one. All I know is that if she's as devoted as she seems, she'd better get used to being a Weasley. They're all in for the long haul in this war. Ginger, who admits anti-Fleur bias since message 51103, back when I was "Gingersnape". Wow, that's been a while. From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 12:54:04 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:54:04 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > Del replies: > Just because Percy is not helping the Order (does he even know about > them?), doesn't mean he's not helping in the war efforts. I don't have too much hope on that front, given the state of the Ministry as presented in HBP. Different leader, still fairly ineffective. > Del replies: > What about the Twins deliberately walking on the unsconscious > Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle? After those three instigated the situation, one is more tempted to read it as JKR writing comeuppance. > What about James and Sirius attacking Snape when he's already down? > > As usual, it's awful when Draco does it, but the good guys always > have a good excuse, huh? And the fact that Harry was *spying* on > Draco is not a good excuse, I suppose? Del, if you want to argue that spying or skulking around is a good enough reason to get someone beat up, then your argument can actually be used to endorse the ways that the Marauders treated Snape. Black tells us that Snape was always skulking around, trying to find out what they were doing (just as Harry was with Draco?): does that make their actions justified? By your argument, it does. > Vmonte wrote: > "This is not a fair fight, and it shows Draco's real nature IMO." > > Del replies: > If an unfair fight at 15/16 shows Draco's real nature, I wonder what > an unfair fight at the same age shows about James' and Sirius's real > nature? We've seen Draco and Harry for six years now. We have hints that Draco/Harry was rather like Snape/James, but we have other factors that are complicating unknowns, such as history, setting, whatever. This isn't an excuse--it's wariness out of lack of knowledge. > Vmonte wrote: > "Still, there is a difference between Harry's horror at what he has > done (probably the same horror that motivated James into saving > Snape) and Draco's reaction to what he himself has done, no?" > > Del replies: > Draco broke Harry's nose. Harry cut Draco's face and chest open. Not > exactly on the same plane, I'd say. I think the fact that Draco was about to cast Cruciatus upon Harry is well-worth considering here. It doesn't make Harry's actions any less stupid, but it does provide a fully understandable motivation. Harry knows what that spell does first-hand in a way that sheltered Draco probably actually does not. That is to say, I bet Draco had cast it before, but I doubt he'd genuinely been in the other position. Draco's rather like that. And the issue is also one's reactions after it. Harry is genuinely horrified after he does these Bad Things. Draco's remorse for his actions is more subtly drawn if even there. Sure, he's crying in the bathroom and he does not have the will to actually kill Dumbledore-- this speaks of him not actually being a killer. On the other hand, he has two attempted murders on his hands--any remorse for that? No clue. -Nora takes a temporary sojourn on-list... From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 13:14:44 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:14:44 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Killing (was Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136832 > > Cindy: > > > "Death" of DD's hand: Ring destroyed--probably would have > > > killed DD if he wasn't so skilled. > > > Possible death of RAB: In an attempt to destroy the locket? > > > Valky: > > Voldie's locket would > > gladly kill anyone who tried to make it give up its treasure, > > that's its job. And checking down the list of Voldemorts style, DD > > had enough trouble with the first two protections so I imagine > > another wizard, after all we are lead to understand that DD is > > considerably talented, another wizard might not even survive the > > first one. > > Jen: Nice thread, Valky. The idea of the Horcrux requiring a death > to destroy it really fits with the Voldemort profile we learned via > the Pensieve memories. About the locket, if the locket at 12 GP is > the actual Horcrux, I've wondered why it wouldn't open and why > Slytherin's mark wasn't mentioned. Harry would notice that. It could > be plot protection of course . Valky: I could probably buy plot protection and there is reasonable clause for the trio ignoring the Slytherin Mark, since they were sorting through a houseload of obviously dark objects it's plausible to assume that *yet another* mark of known Dark Arts Wizardry such as a Slytherin Snake symbol would seem to them at the time, entirely inconsequential. It's even likely that they came across several objects marked with the Slytherin Emblem, considering Old Mrs Black's clear reverence of the very worst of Slytherin values, it's even plausible to assume that she had collected a few Slyth embossed objects (most or all of which were fakes, rip offs, mimic brand type sold at Knockturn Alley markets for 10 knuts a piece) just for show so the trio might well have tossed a stack of Slyth embossed Silver coasters and a matching tea tray not long before they came across the locket. All pure speculation, of course, but given the circumstances, I think, a very neat little layer of plot protection did exist in the Black Household clean up, and JKR may well have used that. ;D > Jen: > So I had two opposing ideas. One that RAB did indeed destroy the > Horcrux at the expense of his life and that in turn destroyed the > mark on the locket. Valky: This one is still within canon that we have isn't it. But I am not sure about it. Yeah it would be great if the locket were already gone but something tells me if it is, R..B. never managed it himelf. Peharps its just all the trouble that DD encountered that makes me believe that. But mostly I think its that I assume ordinarily that Voldemort has endowed all his horcruxes with the power to possess, and it desn't quite sit right with me that a wizard that quite probbly was never the calibre of DD could throw off Voldie possession and DD apparently found it extremely difficult without the help of ingeniously clever SS. And it brings me back to the battle in the MOM when Voldemort possesses Harry's body. I recall it says that Harry felt unbearable pain and then he knew he was dead, wrapped in the coils of the snake and DD was terrified. Voldemorts possession is uniquely powerful, I think.. and I am rambling a bit, but suffice it to say that I don't buy, yet, that anyone but Harry has entirely thrown Voldie off himself. Jen: > OR, the locket is still a Horcrux and RAB was > only able to get it to safety before dying of the potion or because > Voldemort got to him or whatever. That might explain why it doesn't > open. But it doesn't explain why no one mentioned the mark--they all > handled it, trying to open it. Either they didn't take notice > because everything was Slytherin-related or it's not the right > locket, either. Valky: Yeah, like you've said here, I said above, I think that there was probably a heap of Slytherin related things in the Black's hoard and the locket was not unique among them, at least to any group of young Wizardkind with no great skill in recognising authenticity. I am either side of the fence about the Locket still being a Horcrux, I still maintain a faint hope that there is a meaningful Sirius Death to become canon sometime in the future. (I never forgot Talismans great post after OOtP) so I am either side on the locket. In any case if the Locket is a Horcrux now and still needs to be detroyed that removes any doubt that Harry is *not* a Horcrux, because if anything from the TLC/Mugglenet interview I took away a *definite number* from JKR. Four left. I'm almost positive that Jo worded that statement with direction to us to take it as explicit canon and run with it. (feel free to disagree :D) Assuming that, as I do, then: The Locket The Cup The Ravenclaw object and Nagini makes four and no room for Harry. Recently I wrote about how Harry being a Horcrux will enable the prophecy's last line perfectly (as well as invert it ridiculously too), read that one here, if you like, I am too tired to do the analysis again *lol* : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135151 With that still lingering in the back of my mind I am hesitant to rule out Harry right now and that would imply that one of the above Horcruxes *may* already be destroyed. Circle back to Sirius.. The good thing is, It's a small number! the fewer the variables the less difficulty Jo has with the maths, yes? I feel ok with leaning on it for now. > Jen: > Although at this point I do have to agree with MS Beadsley from post > #136602, that it would take more than one book to explore Harry > finding all the remaining Horcruxes and destroying them, let alone > JKR wrapping up the dangling plot lines. Her suggestion was Snape's > role in the story will be to round up at least a few of the > Horcruxes for Harry, under the guise of helping Voldemort increase > protection around the Horcruxes. And who better to deconstruct the > hexes and protections around the Horcruxes, possibly even > sacrificing himself in the end? Eye for an eye. Snape would like > that. ;-) Valky: Yeah I think that Snape will definitely help Harry, but I am sure it will be with just one Horcrux, one is enough for anybody. It might be all the help any one who's willing will ever be able to give. By my reckoning book seven will definitely be long, and I, like some others who have posted, personally wouldn't mind if it needs a few volumes, all the more pleasure reading.. :D From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Aug 7 13:39:49 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:39:49 -0000 Subject: Ginny-Neville-Luna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Unlike everyone else, I have never seen that exchange as Ginny > standing up for Neville. I have always seen Neville's "I'm nobody" NOT > as low self-image, but as an attempt to avoid giving Loony Luna his > name because she is SO uncools that even Neville can't stand the > prospect of her greeting him by name in front of other students some > day. And Ginny is not letting him get away with that level of rudeness > to Luna. I imagine Ginny doesn't allow anyone to be rude to Luna in > her presence. That's probably part of why Luna thinks Ginny is nice. > Hickengruendler: I disagree. I agree that Luna was that odd on first glance, that even the outsider Neville had prejudices against her, but I think this statement does reflect his low self-esteem. Mostly because I see in direct contrast to his quote at the end of the book during the fight at the DoM: "He's not alone, he's still got me". Those two statements show Neville's development and growing during the book, from someone who considers himself a nobody to someone who sees himself as a help for Harry in the DoM. Hickengruendler From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sun Aug 7 13:58:20 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:58:20 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Vmonte, Rizza, > Roxanne, you wrote: > "When we start talking about Harry as a sexual > predator I think it's safe to say that we're > no longer discussing canon." > > Del replies: > You can't just SAY it, you have to SHOW it. > So please show me where it says that Harry > CANNOT turn into a sexual predator or > anything of the sort. You pretend to be > discussing canon, so by all means, give me > CANON evidence supporting what is otherwise only your belief. > > > Roxanne wrote: > "Everyone reads HP (and any book or story) > through their own filters. That's cool, but > for the purpose of this list sticking to > canon is probably the best way to go." > > Del replies: > Sticking to canon, or sticking to YOUR VERSION > of canon? For your information, I HAVE stuck > to canon. If I haven't, please demonstrate so. > Rizza: You do realize you're contradicing yourself right? You're demanding cannon to prove her belief that Harry COULD NOT turn into a sexual predator, yet you haven't, nor can you provide cannon to support your belief that he COULD! Unless there is a sentence in any of the books that says Harry himself believes he will or will not grow up to be abusive, or someone says it of/to him, using those exact words. Unless I'm mistaken, the said sentences do not exist. Because, whatever you pull out of the books to support your theory, she could read it in a completely different way. And vice versa. I went through your messages and read all those relating this subject, and no I couldn't find anywhere you supported yourself with canon. If I missed it, please enlighten me. > Roxanne wrote: > "If you find yourself talking more about your > life than Harry's perhaps it's time to step back." > > Del replies: > Please demonstrate that I have talked more > about my own life than Harry's. You can't just > accuse me of having done it, you have to prove it. > Rizza: Message 136773, your third reply. That's what she was talking about, not every other oppinion you've shared in this post. > Back to Vmonte and Rizza, now. > > Vmonte wrote: > "But it also seems to me that JKR is a VERY moral > person and that she is trying to teach children > some great lessons in her books. Imagine a book > that teaches children to value family, friendship, > and to be brave in the face of danger; to have > tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the > best in people." > > Del replies: > > * Value family: only when your family is on > the right side. Draco Malfoy is shown as being > decidedly wrong for following in his parents' steps, > while Sirius is a hero for having renounced his evil family. > Rizza: Are you telling me you DON'T think Draco is for being adherent to his parents' principles? The same parents who'll do anything, including KILL, to rid the world of muggles and non-purebloods? There's a big difference between having unconditional love for your family, and agreeing with everything they say and do, simply because they raised you to. So should Sirius be condemned for breaking free and having a mind of his own, rather than being a prejudiced psychopath who's main goal in life is to annihilate those whom he belives to be beneath him? If he had stayed with his family, that's exactly what he would have been. > Del replies: > ... but that doesn't mean the Harry we > know couldn't turn into an abuser, in the hands > of another writer. To me, there's a small but > significant difference between saying "JKR won't > make Harry be an abuser" and "Harry cannot be an abuser". > Rizza: When another writer gets permission from JKR to write his/her own versions of Harry's life, let me know. Until then, this is still JKR's Harry Potter. Anyway, yes there is a difference, and I still choose to believe the latter. Why? Because even if JKR decided to write fifty more books after the seventh, she would not write Harry as an abusive man. He's the main character, the hero, the one whom millions of children around the world look up to, identify with in one way or another, > Del replies: >> I'm not saying the abuse is there. I'm just > saying that we don't have to rule it out > because JKR hasn't given us any ground to > rule it out. > > Del replies: > Which part of "I DO *NOT* BELIEVE THAT HARRY > IS ABUSING GINNY" do you not understand? > > Del replies: > Actually, it's PRECISELY because I've been > in Harry's head for so long that I thought > of the abuse scenario. I have seen things in > Harry's behaviour towards other people that > DO make me cringe, and that DO make me think > that such a boy could turn into an abuser > if he weren't protected by JKR's will. > Rizza wrote: > "I do think you could be more open-minded, > and perhaps a little bit logical about this."> > Who is being illogical by ruling out a > possibility on the grounds of assumption instead of hard evidence? > Rizza again: Logical: reasoning or capable of reasoning in a clear and consistent manner. As far as I know you've been more contradictory to and inconsistent in your statements than anyone else who's had a say on this topic. Are you theorizing about Harry Potter who exists in JKR's "Harry Potter..." series? Or are you talking about a Harry Potter who could exist away from JKR's pen? Make THAT clear to me. Because you seem to be arguing in both cases... *Rizza* who is suddenly reminded of the best phrase ever uttered in this group- *AGREE TO DISAGREE* From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 14:04:29 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 15:04:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE:Snape thoughts References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136835 Cindy ""I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself...And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it..." If Voldemort had made an Unbreakable Vow, wouldn't he blame that instead of Lily's sacrifice?" Not nessicarly. Perhaps he would have not wanted to mention that he broke the oath, or that he'd made it with Snape, who most of them would have considered a traitor. Chris Alternate History: http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:18 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE:Snape thoughts --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Chris wrote: > Anyway, when the prediction was made, Snape saw it as an opportunity > to > get James killed. He told Voldemort, perhaps empathising that James > had a child. James and his spawn (Harry) would be wiped from the > Earth; > lily would be allowed to live. (Speculation; did Voldemort swear an > Unbreakable Oath with Snape for that? Was that why the spell bounced > back?) > > > Now me: > I think your idea of VL and Snape taking an unbreakable vow, which is > why when VL tried to kill Harry/Lily it bounced back on him is,as Ron > would say, BLOODY BRILLIANT! I think you are 100% right. With all you > amazing thinkers out there, I won't have to wait until book 7, because > you'll have the plot all laid out for me long before! LOL > > Snapeo'phile Now Cindy: Excellent posts, it really made sense to me at first...and then I remembered chatter after the rebirthing scene in GOF: pg 653 AE "I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself...And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it..." If Voldemort had made an Unbreakable Vow, wouldn't he blame that instead of Lily's sacrifice? And, there's also the possibility that Voldemort's memory was jumbled and he doesn't remember taking the vow so he is speculating on how he ended up Spectral!Mort. A really good post Chris, but I'm not sure it works with what canon has revealed so far. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 14:10:55 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:10:55 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave and let's start on the potion! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136836 > > > Valky: > > Personally I like the notion that this locket was DD's clue to > > Harry that he is not alone in going after Voldie's Horcruxes and > > that along the way he will find others like R.A.B and Aberforth > > who are willing to share his burden with him. > > > Cindy: > I agree Valky, Harry will need plenty of help to solve the > Horcrux "riddles". It's been mentioned before, and after rereading > the cave scene, I've come to the conclusion that R.A.B. probably did > not drink the potion himself since the note left was well written > and rational, not at all like the writing one would expect from > someone who just experienced what DD went through. I've seen it > posted elsewhere that if it is Regulus, he probably made Kreacher do > the drinking. So even though Harry can't stand Kreacher, he will be > of help if Harry orders him to give him information. I've also been > considering that R.A.B. was framed, which could explain why he was > killed, but I'm still thinking he died was in his attempt to destroy > the locket--and I think Kreacher would have been witness. Valky: Yeah I am pretty wel sold on the idea that it was a Kreacher Regulus team effort too. It quickly solves the second party who could get across in the boat, Voldie would surely underestimate a House elf, for Magical ability, it explains how the potion can have been drunk by someone, (How long has Kreacher actually been that batty anyhow did Sirius give us a timeframe in OOtP that we might glean another canon proof from?). It fits almost automatically, and there's no question that Mrs Blacks favourite son wouldn't be interrogated for taking the family House elf out for a night and bringing him back half dead. Stranger things went on in that house. I like to run a little with the Regulus R.A.B Hyothesis because it has an incredible domino effect and leads to a network of avenues. Which would be in excellent style for the penultimate book of HP answers. Lets face it, JKR, deferentially, doesn't like to *keep* clues from us entirely, so leading us in several directions at once would be the next best thing in plot protection. > Cindy: > JKR has made it look like good ole sticky fingers Mung took the > locket and sold it, but my money is on the twins. They were > pilfering items from the Black mansion to learn their spells. Since > they couldn't open the locket, it would rouse their curiousity to > somehow learn its spell to turn it into some kind of gag item for > their shop. If so, the two have a ticking time bomb on their hands > which might kill them, OTH, they have shown themselves to be quite > good at being patient in figuring things out. However, if you > believe in what goes around comes around, Gred and Forge are due for > a little of their own medicine. > Valky: Oh good point about Fred and George there Cindy. Yeah I definitely think that *at least* Harry could wind up knocking on The twins door to see if they remember the strange Locket that wouldn't open. It's possible, though I don't count on it, that the Twins might get themselves in out of their depth with it, but I like them (in spite of their devilishness, or maybe because of it) so I hope not, really. Can't think of anything relly great as an option quite yet, except maybe that their novelty objects will turn out handy too, but that might not have anything to do with the Locket. For their sakes, I hope they don't have the locket, because you're right, they are way too curious and mischievous for their own good in that case. Valky > From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 14:12:21 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:12:21 -0000 Subject: The books are not about rape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136837 vmonte wrote: Del, I'm sorry about what happened to you, but you need to step back a little. You and I know that Harry is not a sexual predator--at least I think you don't? The books are not about you, or me, or anyone else. And it's ok to feel upset because your ship did not come true. Everyone on this site has come up with theories that have turned out to be wrong, at least I did, and I think that's ok. But it also seems to me that JKR is a VERY moral person and that she is trying to teach children some great lessons in her books. Imagine a book that teaches children to value family, friendship, and to be brave in the face of danger; to have tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the best in people. There is no way that JKR would make Harry a rapist or an abuser. You're right that Merope should not have used Tom Riddle Sr. in the way that she did (and she paid for it didn't she?), but to accuse Harry? Come on? I understand that you feel like you didn't get enough of Harry-with- Ginny to make it real for you, but it's another thing to start inventing scenarios that are just not there. **Marcela now: I know that you have been following this thread, Vivian, so it's really a bit puzzling that you have missed some of Del's posts, in which she has stated more than twice that she had indeed seen H/G coming and that she was supportive of that ship, as well as R/Hr's, pre-HBP. Also, Del has repeatedly said that she doesn't believe that Harry was an abuser, she was simply countering the argument of "filling in the gaps with your own imagination", as it had been suggested to "make up" for the lack of info the reader got about H/G's relationship, once it was sealed with the kiss. As a H/Hr shipper, I remember I used to get upset when some R/Hr shippers theorized of Harry being the 'violent' type... their canon evidence for this belief was the Fight and Flight chapter in OoTP, in which Harry "felt" like wanting to "shake" Hermione. So, even though I don't believe that Harry is a violent person, or that he'd resort to abuse his girlfriend, I can see where some people get their ideas from. As Del stated in another post, it's not the readers whom are bringing violence/abuse/rape to the HP universe, it's the author herself whom brought them in. I give you example of this: Hermione's canary attack. While it looked like a funny scene at first -especially because it happened to Ron-, when I read the book a second time this scene hit me like a bullet! On this second time, when I already I knew that Hr/R ship was about to sail in next book, that canary scene striked me as too violent for my taste. I wondered: how can any couple come up to terms or feel good with each other after one of them has so purposedly "hurt" the other? I don't know... but despite JKR's other nice messages about friendship, love, etc., this scene alone kind of kills it for me. What's a 12 year-old girl going to think after reading that scene? That hurting a boy you like is okay if he's crossed you, because he's going out with another girl and not you? I could have even accepted a "petrificus totalus" or a "silencio" spell on Ron, but a canary attack? We know that it was not a mild thing, it left marks on Ron's face and hands -that had been covering his eyes, mind you- for days afterwards... So who is bringing violence or abuse to HP world? Marcela From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 14:17:41 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:17:41 -0000 Subject: Fred and George In-Reply-To: <14262fbd050806080533bac606@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa Williams wrote: > Lorel writes: > > "- Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder," said Ron bitterly. "Fred and > > George's. I'm going to be having a word with them about who they let > > buy their products." > > > > I bet Ron won't be the only one having a word. Regardless of who > > speaks to them, at some point it seems that someone will hold them at > > least partially responsible for the events of that night. > > > > Lisa responds: > > Isn't that akin, though, to holding a gun seller responsible for a > murder? While they will likely be devastated that their product was > used for a purpose with such a terrible outcome, I can't see how > anyone could hold them responsible for any of the events at all. > > Lisa/SassyMomOfThree Lorel now: You have a valid point. However, in the US there are background checks on people wishing to buy guns (legally, anyway). I envision the conversation to be more along the lines of, "You didn't even stop to consider that some of these products could be used by DE's against us???" It underscores the Twins' general thoughtlessness or impulsiveness - as always, they didn't mean anything by it, but didn't think it through. I agree that Fred and George will indeed be devastated, and see them modifying their product line more responsibly as a result. Lorel From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sun Aug 7 14:23:30 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:23:30 -0000 Subject: Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > Cindy ""I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by > the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself...And > now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my > experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse > should have done it..." > > If Voldemort had made an Unbreakable Vow, wouldn't he blame that > instead of Lily's sacrifice?" > > Not nessicarly. Perhaps he would have not wanted to mention that he broke the oath, or that he'd made it with Snape, who most of them would have considered a traitor. > > Chris > Rizza replies: What would they have made the vow for or against? When Snape made a vow with Narcissa, it was for Snape to protect Draco. So what would have been the purpose of a Snape and Voldemort vow? Or did someone alredy mention it? Sorry, I'm new to this thread. I'll go back and do my research... I think the "experiment" Voldemort refers to is a Horcrux(es). A Horcrux guarantees his immortality. And don't forget, Voldemort likes to work alone. He doesn't believe he needs anyone to help him achieve his goals. *Rizza* From pokeypokey at comcast.net Sun Aug 7 14:34:18 2005 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:34:18 -0000 Subject: Swimming In-Reply-To: <007501c59b38$ff66acc0$39c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Lucy and Stephen Dawson: > > >>Silly question, but when did Harry learn to swim well enough to follow > Dumbledore on a swim fully clothed through an icy sea?? > > CathyD now: > I wondered that myself. Not only that, he dragged Dumbledorethrough the icy sea, fully clothed to get back out of the cave. Had to look back to GoF to see if I was right that Harry said he couldn't swim more than a couple laps of that pool/tub in the prefect's bathroom, he was terrified at the thought of going into the lake. Dudley had had swimming lessons but he didn't. Must've taken lessons sometime during fifth year, don'cha think. ;) Maybe we're supposed to think that since he swam so well in the lake to get Ron that now he's completely confident in his swimming ability!? > angelberri56 now: I don't really think that it mattered whether Harry was now confident enough about his swimming abilities to take dumbledore across the sea. I seriously doubt Harry was thinking about the fact that he couldn't swim well; he was prob a bit distracted by the fact that they had to get to this horcrux (which if destroyed is the key to beating voldemort, so obviously a crucial thing to retrieve) and when coming back, getting dumbledore back to hogwarts. The only thought Harry would have had room in his mind for was that DD was very weak and he had to get both of them back to safety. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 14:49:58 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:49:58 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136843 Del wrote: You can't just SAY it, you have to SHOW it. So please show me where it says that Harry CANNOT turn into a sexual predator or anything of the sort. You pretend to be discussing canon, so by all means, give me CANON evidence supporting what is otherwise only your belief. ...there is no way *JKR* would make Harry a bad guy. That doesn't mean that the Harry we know couldn't turn into an abuser, in the hands of another writer. To me, there's a small but significant difference between saying "JKR won't make Harry be an abuser" and "Harry cannot be an abuser". vmonte: So what are you actually saying? Your subject title is: "Putting words in other posters' mouth-Rape," yet you keep talking about it? You show me in canon where Harry is a sexual predator--I dare you. If your argument is that Harry could be one in the hands of a different writer then I'm not interested. I'm reading JKR's Harry Potter not your fanfic about Harry Potter. Del: ...Please demonstrate that I have talked more about my own life than Harry's. You can't just accuse me of having done it, you have to prove it. vmonte: You're kidding right? vmonte: "But it also seems to me that JKR is a VERY moral person and that she is trying to teach children some great lessons in her books. Imagine a book that teaches children to value family, friendship, and to be brave in the face of danger; to have tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the best in people." Del replies: * Value family: only when your family is on the right side. Draco Malfoy is shown as being decidedly wrong for following in his parents' steps, while Sirius is a hero for having renounced his evil family. * Value friends: ditto. Bad, bad Cho who remained friend with Marrietta, for example. vmonte: Yes, that is what I mean. If your family is a bunch of murderers or Nazis you should not follow in their steps. It makes a lot of sense, no? The Weasley's are a good family, Draco's, and Sirius's are not. DEl: * To have tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the best in people: I'll reserve my approval on those ones until Book 7. If it is shown in the last book that DD was a fool to give Snape a second chance, then I'll have to disagree with you. vmonte: So your a fool to give people a second chance? I don't see Dumbledore as the fool, I see Snape as the fool. Del: I'm not saying the abuse is there. I'm just saying that we don't have to rule it out because JKR hasn't given us any ground to rule it out. The only reason we rule it out is because we ASSUME that she never intended to write Harry as an abuser. But then I also assumed that Harry would never even attempt to use one of the Unforgivable Curses... vmonte: Again, I'm reading JKR's books not your fanfic. Harry was unable to use the unforgivable curses on Snape because he doesn't have it in him. When he attacked Draco he did not realize what that spell would do, hence his horror--this is canon. Rizza wrote: "I can see you're determined to believe the worst because you're experienced the worst, and so think it's possible of anyone. " Del replies: Actually, it's PRECISELY because I've been in Harry's head for so long that I thought of the abuse scenario. I have seen things in Harry's behaviour towards other people that DO make me cringe, and that DO make me think that such a boy could turn into an abuser if he weren't protected by JKR's will. vmonte: Thank God that he is protected by JKR's will and not yours. What you are seeing is a manifestation of your own head, not hers. Del: Speculation: 1. Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation. 2. A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture. 3. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition... vmonte: Thanks for the dictionary lists. You need to reread them because you obviously don't understand the meanings. I'm also going to add another comment here. You have a choice whether to believe the factual Harry, the one that is printed on the page, or the Harry that is capable of anything, which resides in your head. I actually appreciated this discussion because I can know understand how Snape deludes himself about Harry. You do not understand Harry anymore than Snape does, and that is very sad. Vivian From troelsfo at yahoo.dk Sun Aug 7 15:12:56 2005 From: troelsfo at yahoo.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 17:12:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050807170854.02050690@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 136844 At 10:37 07-08-05 +0000, Del wrote: >Vmonte, Rizza, > >Del replies: >You can't just SAY it, you have to SHOW it. >So please show me where it says that Harry >CANNOT turn into a sexual predator or >anything of the sort. You pretend to be >discussing canon, so by all means, give me >CANON evidence supporting what is otherwise only your belief. May I remind everybody that the absence of evidence disconfirming a theory is not in any way to be taken as confirming evidence in itself. In the absence of evidence the burden of proof lies on the person who propounds the more radical interpretation. In this case the person who propounds the idea that Harry /can/ turn into a 'sexual predator' must provide canon evidence confirming this proposition -- it is not the job of other posters to disprove it: in this case it is not the proposition that receives the benefit of doubt, but the other way around. Troels From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 15:10:18 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 15:10:18 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Sn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136845 Carol responds: It seems certain to me that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow. First, he is not surprised when Harry mentions it, indicating that Snape has already told him about his confrontation with Draco. Second, Dumbledore knows that Draco has been trying to kill him all year. He has not suspected anyone but Draco or been misled as to Draco's intended victim. He also knows or suspects that Draco has an accomplice outside Hogwarts, information that could be deduced from what Snape (or Harry) told him. Snape's conversation with Draco occurs between the necklace incident and the poisoned mead (a flawed plan that is probably already in motion since it's christmas time and the mead is supposed to be a Christmas present). Almost certainly Snape is following Dumbledore's orders in speaking to Draco, not acting on his own because of the vow. Certainly he is not doing it because he wants to steal Draco's "glory." His idea of "helping" Draco, up to that point, has been to put his two accomplices in detention. Now he is forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct action. Valky: Wow, thanks for the brilliant reply Carol, sorry for my tardiness finding it. Ok to start, I have to say you make an excellent case for this. I'm fairly well convinced that canon fully supports the hypothesis that DD and Snape were arguing about Snape watching over Draco. It also explains why DD's trail of conversation leads into the resposibility of watching over the Slytherin House. It could be that he was implying there that Snape could more easily guise his shadowing of Draco in that responsibility, but I think, more likely, that DD was reminding Snape it was too late in the year for him to be taken off duty as Head of House and his responsibility to investigate would remain, in any case. Carol: When Harry tells Dumbledore about this conversation, Dumbledore is not only not surprised, he tells Harry that it's likely he understands more from it than Harry does, a statement that the reader ought also. Valky: Absolutely. And Harry does have a lot of information at this time, so it's actually, possibly, a much larger statement about what DD knows, as you eloquently put, Carol. Carol: Unfortunately for all concerned, Draco is supremely unconcerned that Snape has put his life on the line. Perhaps he doesn't know what an Unbreakable Vow is; more likely he doesn't care about anyone's predicament but his own. Realizing that the interview is going nowhere, Snape tries one last tactic, expressing understanding for Draco's feelings about his father, which leads to Draco storming out the door. The interview has been a fiasco. There is no point in making a second attempt. Valky: Exactly. Draco, who has also been pressed hard into a corner himself, has limits to his compassion. This scenario imitates the third task in GOF, I think. Where Harry sees three victims and can't think but to save them all, Draco deliberates his purpose and forsakes all else for the saving of his most dear thing (His Family) and the glory of winning. Snape is here, just like Gabrielle, while Lucius and Narcissa would make a good Cho and Ron analogy. True to his word in GOF Draco is not going to waste precious minutes worrying about the helpless blonde (who was, incedentally, in the most danger since her saver couldn't produce her Bubblehead charm. oh good foreshadowing dontcha think..) he's there for his one most precious and to win the race. He makes it painfully clear to Snape and I don't see why Snape could have any reason to doubt that. Carol: I almost wish, for Snape's sake and Dumbledore's, that he had done so. He might not have died redeemed, but he would not have the terrible sin of Dumbledore's death splitting and tainting his soul. And Dumbledore would have died in any case, since only Snape could save him. (I say "almost wish" because I still have hope that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and will somehow help Harry in Book 7.) to consider. Valky: I firmly believe that Sevvie, although he created himself an awful mess, deserved the trust of Dumbledore, and that Dumbledore definitely shouldered some of the burden of fault here himself, although Snape probably didn't realise it. Sevvies task was never easy, and moreover he did have weaknesses, as much as he would like that he didn't have any. Unfortunately his stubborness about that, I believe, got the better of him and he trapped himself, once again in a self made prison (Ok some aren't going to like this next statement but I believe it's apt), this time James didn't save him. But in the end I think he will have dwelled on it all enough, and his sudden remarkable fondess for Harry (yes you heard me correctly, I think, Sevvie has found it increasingly harder to hate HP to a point where he almost doesn't) enough that in a soon to be event Snape will redeem and be proven always loyal to DD. Sorry to be not backing this with mounds of canon right now, I've built the picture on the kind of canon interpretations that I had investigated in my Human!Snape posts. (And there will be more of them soon enough). Valky Who also sees Snape as trapped in HBP, and feels that DD understood well how Snape had done it to himself. And while he trusted Snape to the end, he had long hoped that he could perhaps guide Sevvie away from making another mistake like this. Alas. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 15:09:25 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 15:09:25 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136846 vmonte: "Percy is a jerk! And doesn't he choose, out of his own free will, to be a jerk? His father is dying in the hospital during OOTP (at least there was a good possiblity that that might happen) and Percy refuses to see him because of a stupid fight?" Del: Arthur was attacked during the night, and by 5am he was already out of danger. So unless you can prove that Percy was contacted during the night and refused to come, your accusation has no basis. By the time Percy most probably learned of the situation (when he went to work), Arthur was completely out of danger. And may I remind you that during the "stupid fight", Arthur totally and completely crushed Percy's pride by arguing *without any proof* that the only reason Percy had been promoted was so Fudge could spy on Arthur? Personally I don't see why Percy should make ANY efforts to reconcile with such an *unsupportive* family. vmonte now: Wow, we are talking about Percy's father here aren't we? Percy is a selfish and self-serving jerk. He should have at least showed up at the hospital for his mother's sake. Vmonte: "He does not realize that it's family that's important, not the corporate ladder." Del: I don't see why Percy should consider his family to be important, considering how little they've ALWAYS all thought of him, except Molly? vmonte: Poor Percy, so hurt by his bad and abusive family. Contrast his life to Harry's. Del replies: Just because Percy is not helping the Order (does he even know about them?), doesn't mean he's not helping in the war efforts. vmonte: If he is helping as undercover spy or something like that then I will be very proud of him indeed. :) Vmonte wrote: "In fact, I love the entire Weasley clan. They are a warm and loving family." Del replies: You love them all, except Percy, right? And they are warm and loving, except to Percy... vmonte: I'm disappointed in Percy, but would forgive him if he were to make the right choice in the next book. I would give him another chance. I think that his family loves him as well. Vmonte wrote: "You don't see a difference between Harry's behavior and Draco's? This train scene said more to me about Draco than any other scene in any other HP book. Draco stuns Harry (Harry is immobilized) and then Draco smashes his foot into Harry's face breaking his nose. Draco then takes Harry's cloak and covers him up, and walks away. Pretty cowardly don't you think? He attacks a man when he is already down?" Del replies: What about the Twins deliberately walking on the unsconscious Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle? What about James and Sirius attacking Snape when he's already down? vmonte: I'm talking about Harry and Draco here. Mark my words, Snape and Draco are going to turn out to be the slime of the earth. I can also imagine a scenario in book 7 where Harry is going to have to save Draco's life. And of course Harry will save him and Draco will not appreciate it--not canon--JMO. Vmonte wrote: "Still, there is a difference between Harry's horror at what he has done (probably the same horror that motivated James into saving Snape) and Draco's reaction to what he himself has done, no?" Del replies: Draco broke Harry's nose. Harry cut Draco's face and chest open. Not exactly on the same plane, I'd say. vmonte: Exactly! What Harry did was done out of stupidity, what Draco did was done on out of malice. Still trying to make Harry the bad guy aren't you. How sad. Vivian From ongj87 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 03:04:39 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:04:39 -0000 Subject: Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136847 > Anyway, Chapter 1 was very amusing with all the Prime Minister funny > stuff about Major/Blair.... > alm Speaking of the first chapter, did anyone notice the similarities between the guy in the portrait and Umbridge? Froglike face and a very pronounced and obnoxious cough. Maybe it's just me. - ongj87 From rt11guru at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 14:24:35 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Horcrux Killing (was Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050807142435.88484.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136848 Jen wrote: ... The idea of the Horcrux requiring a death to destroy it really fits with the Voldemort profile we learned via the Pensieve memories. Is it possible that someone else has died tampering with a horcruxes? In OotP, Harry talking to Luna: "Have you" he began. "I mean, who has anyone you known ever died?" "Yes," said Luna simply, "my mother. She was a quite extraordinary witch, you know, but she did like to experiment and one of her spells went rather badly wrong one day. I was nine." Guru From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 7 04:38:57 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 04:38:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136849 > >Devika: This is an interesting theory. However, I have a few questions about > it. First, where in the book does it say that love potions can be > worn as perfume?... Pat: It doesn't. In message # 136610 I collected the facts about love potions and the flowery scent and extrapolated that this is a possibility. However, since I posted that, someone else discussed with me the possibility that Ginny is unknowingly wearing love potion as perfume. What if the perfume Ron gave to Hermione was, unknown to him, some of the twins love potion, and Hermione gave it to Ginny who is now wearing it. I can see it being that way, too. That would give a more subtle effect as when Harry inhaled Amortentia fumes, and would also explain the intermittent effect that I'm seeing. If it's a different love potion than Amortentia, that would explain why Harry doesn't also smell treacle tart and his Firebolt when Ginny is near him, as only Amortentia smells like your favorite things. And it also could explain Ginny's popularity, which Del already posted on, so I can't claim that brainwave either. Pat From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 16:03:10 2005 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:03:10 -0000 Subject: Mothers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136850 The role of mothers seem to be quite significant in the HP series. We know that the reason Harry lives is because of his mother's sacrifice, but I wonder how important the role of Voldy and Snape's moms will be to the story now that their mother's have been introduced. Especially Snape's mother. Her introduction in the story was saved for the very end of the book, so her role in all this must be big - where is she now? is she alive? if not, how did she die? and a big question I have is what (or who) would make such a talented witch marry outside of the wizarding world? Snape and Voldy also share the fact that their wizarding lineage comes from their mothers side of the family, both women choosing to marry muggles. wizarding lineage is so important to death eaters that this has to be important i think. Are there any mother theories (surrounding Lilly Potter, Eileen Prince And Merope Gaunt) out there that I have missed. Parallels? Connections? I tried to look through previous posts but it gets overwhelming. -QoE From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 16:08:34 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:08:34 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Killing (was Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand) In-Reply-To: <20050807142435.88484.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ken Fruit wrote: > Jen wrote: > ... The idea of the Horcrux requiring a death to destroy it really fits with > the Voldemort profile we learned via the Pensieve memories. > > > Is it possible that someone else has died tampering with a horcruxes? > > In OotP, Harry talking to Luna: > "Have you " he began. "I mean, who has anyone you known ever died?" > "Yes," said Luna simply, "my mother. She was a quite extraordinary witch, you > know, but she did like to experiment and one of her spells went rather badly > wrong one day. I was nine." > > Guru Well, that is just something to think about, isn't it? (Psst, Valky, here is the first of running in a hundred different directions with "destroying a horcrux will require a deadly sacrifice"!) Could Luna's mom own Hufflepuff's cup? When Harry tells the group about the Horcruxes, will Luna say "I know that cup!" And what if she actually managed to destroyed the soul? Cindy From ongj87 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 03:33:10 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:33:10 -0000 Subject: More about Snape's "failed" AK. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136852 Holly: > Either way it can't be denied that Dumbledore was blasted over the > wall by something, whether by the AK (unlikely as pointed out by > smartone56441070) or by a seperate silent spell by Snape or even by > Dumbledore himself but certainly didn't just slip over it. Holly. I thought of this theory too, and I'd like to add that it is fact that dead bodies don't bleed (Anyone seen Gosford Park?). This is also mentioned in the chapter, The Cave when Harry uses the sectumsempra spell on the inferi and notices that they don't bleed. Yet Harry wiped blood from Dumbledore's mouth after returning to him. So this means he must have suffered the injury either before Snape used Avada Kedavra, or the AV didn't kill him at all but simply knocked him off the tower. - ongj87 From ehteshamulh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 07:16:46 2005 From: ehteshamulh at yahoo.com (ehteshamulh) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:16:46 -0000 Subject: Merope Gaunt and Mayella Ewell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136853 Ericoppen wrote: > When reading HBP, I was struck by how much the Gaunt household > reminded me of a book I know very well---_To Kill a Mockingbird,_ and > specifically the way the Ewells are described. I think that it's a great comparison. To maybe extend it even further, Mayella Ewell's actions unleash a maelstrom of hate in the community which is, in the end, countered by Atticus' show of selfless love towards others less fortunate than him (e.g. taking a case no other lawyer would, feeling a glimmer of pity for Mayella, guarding Tom Robinson with his life while Tom's in prison before the trial). Lord Voldemort's story essentially began out of unrequited, selfish love. Maybe it will take the opposite type of love to finally put an end to him. And, in my mind, putting an end to LV would include carrying out reforms in the Wizarding World so monsters like him are dealt with more effectively the next time around. Ehteshamulh. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 16:11:23 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Theories and burden of proof. Was: Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050807170854.02050690@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20050807161123.41712.qmail@web60419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136854 Troels replies: > > May I remind everybody that the absence of evidence > disconfirming a > theory is not in any way to be taken as confirming > evidence in itself. > > In the absence of evidence the burden of proof lies > on the person who > propounds the more radical interpretation. In this > case the person who > propounds the idea that Harry /can/ turn into a > 'sexual predator' must > provide canon evidence confirming this proposition > -- it is not the job > of other posters to disprove it: in this case it is > not the proposition > that receives the benefit of doubt, but the other > way around. > > Troels Larry: Allow me to put it another way. Any wild and baseless assertion can be made, such as Harry really being an adopted extraterrestrial, or Dumbledore being a kiddieporn afficianado. Of course there is nothing in canon to suggest this sort of nonsense, but nevertheless they cannot be disproven. We deal in canon here, and canon asserts much, suggests much, and implies much. There is a flow to the narrative, a flow that has a direction the attentive reader can and should decern. Hence, the absurdities that I have mockingly posted above, along with all other non-textually based speculations are wholly unworthy of comment or response. Larry From jenny.amparo at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 16:45:59 2005 From: jenny.amparo at gmail.com (Emfer) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:45:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050807170854.02050690@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20050807170854.02050690@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <9accd3db05080709453891f22@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136855 On 8/7/05, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 10:37 07-08-05 +0000, Del wrote: > >Vmonte, Rizza, > > > >Del replies: > >You can't just SAY it, you have to SHOW it. > >So please show me where it says that Harry > >CANNOT turn into a sexual predator or > >anything of the sort. You pretend to be > >discussing canon, so by all means, give me > >CANON evidence supporting what is otherwise only your belief. > > May I remind everybody that the absence of evidence disconfirming a > theory is not in any way to be taken as confirming evidence in itself. > > In the absence of evidence the burden of proof lies on the person who > propounds the more radical interpretation. In this case the person who > propounds the idea that Harry /can/ turn into a 'sexual predator' must > provide canon evidence confirming this proposition -- it is not the job > of other posters to disprove it: in this case it is not the proposition > that receives the benefit of doubt, but the other way around. > > Troels Emfer: This whole debate started with Del not agreeing that H/G has a mature relationship. She never said that that Harry IS a sexual predator. She said that there could be people out there who could see it that way. She backed up her believes in post 135989 that she does not see any evidence that H/G does have a mature relationship. Wether you agree with her or not is another matter. Just my 2knuts > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 17:06:24 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 17:06:24 -0000 Subject: rape was Love Potions (was: Re: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > > >Susan McGee: > > >The person who gave the love potion would not be a rapist unless > > they > > >engaged in sexual contact/intercourse with the person to whom they > > >gave the love potion...it's unethical, and it's wrong, but there's > > >another step to rape. > > > > a_svirn: > > And why do you think "the person who would give the love potion" > > would give it in the first place? To find out which smell you find > > attractive? > > So that the person would pay attention to them, take them to a party > where you would earn the admiration of your friends for capturing the > attention of the most admired boy in the school...again, not everyone > who puts a love potion in someone's drink will then decide to force > them into sex (for force it would be). > > Susan Oh, well, this is of course one way of putting it. I agree that Romilda wanted to be seen as the chosen one of the "Chosen One" and along with the rest of the female Hogwarts population yearned to be invited to the Slug-club party. But what it is about "capturing the attention of the most admired boy?" Surely, an understatement? You don't feed the "admired boy" aphrodisiac to capture his "attention". You do it to degrade him to a state of a sexual slave first and foremost, although an invitation to a party is certainly an added bonus. Of course, you can argue that Romilda Vane, being in her early teens, probably did not foresee all the ramifications of her actions. She certainly does not come across as a particularly bright individual. Yet neither she looks particularly innocent. An actual state of her virginity notwithstanding, she is apparently obsessed with sex (and considering the question about tattoos in its more kinky variety). From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Aug 7 18:03:56 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:03:56 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?FILK:_Mister_Lovegood_and_his_Quibblin=92_Little_Five-Knut_=91Zine?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136857 Mister Lovegood and his Quibblin' Little Five-Knut `Zine To the tune of Ray Stevens' Freddie Feel-Good and His Funky Little Five-Piece Band. Here an excerpt at: http://www.musiconmp3.com/songs_Ray_Stevens.htm The Scene: A concert venue on Diagon Alley. Innocent singing sensation STUBBY BOARDMAN temporarily comes out of retirement to host a fundraiser for that beacon of truth, The Quibbler, and its heroic editor Mister Lovegood STUBBY BOARDMAN: Well, there is a hot little journal That loves to expose The secret schemes of the Tornados And the vile gang Rotfang that wants to stay unseen LUNA: Hey, hey STUBBY: Fudge is that outlaw, you may well surmise Who murders goblins, and then bakes `em in pies But there's a man standing on the side of the pure and clean I`m talking `bout Mister Lovegood And his Quibblin' little 5-knut `zine, LUNA: Oh yeah... STUBBY: He's got a Blibbering Humdinger He is really some singer He's got dibs on the way to blib BLIBBERING HUMDINGER Blib, blib, blib, blib, etc. STUBBY He got a Slashkilter What thrills, sir! UMGUBULAR SLASHKILTER Um, gub, gub, gub, gub, etc. STUBBY He got a Crumple-Horned Snorkack Lookin' for a small snack CRUMPLE-HORNED SNORKACK Snork, snork, kack, kack, kack, etc. STUBBY Here's a Wrackspurt Cute as Norbert He'll start some buzzin' in your fuzzy head WRACKSPURT Spurt, spurt, spurt, spurt, etc. STUBBY And our editor Always anti-predator Here`s Mister Lovegood hisself MISTER LOVEGOOD Quib, Quib, Quib, Quib, etc. (MISTER LOVEGOOD and the quartet of improbable Fantastic Beasts enter into an extended riff of elaborately counterpointed scat-singing which brings the audience to their feet) STUBBY Well, The Daily Prophet may fear the wrath Of the Aquavirus Maggot and the Heliopath Keepin' the truth from the wizards to boost their regime LUNA: Hey, hey STUBBY But in the end everybody's gonna know all the facts About the nargals, moon frogs, and the Swedish snorkacks - The truth he will find even though it may sound extreme LUNA: Hey, hey STUBBY & LUNA I`m talking `bout Mister Lovegood And his Quibblin' little 5-knut `zine, oh yeah STUBBY (spoken): Blow that horn! Come on Humdinger baby, make it blib! C'mon! (A second extended riff by the Quintet, culminating in a Broadway chorus-line climax) BLIBBERING HUMDINGER (winding down) Blib, blib, blib, blib, blib, blib, blib ... STUBBY: Oh yeeaaahhhh! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (with over 70 HPB filks, including three musicals) From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 18:15:28 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:15:28 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape In-Reply-To: <9accd3db05080709453891f22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Emfer wrote: > On 8/7/05, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Emfer wrote: > > This whole debate started with Del not agreeing that H/G has a > mature relationship. She never said that that Harry IS a sexual > predator. She said that there could be people out there who could > see it that way. She backed up her believes in post 135989 that she > does not see any evidence that H/G does have a mature relationship. > Wether you agree with her or not is another matter. > > Just my 2knuts Max responds: What does it matter that H/G don't have a 'mature' relationship? They've only been dating for six weeks. What should we expect? What I saw in post 135989 is Grindiloe providing very valid *canon evidence* that Harry and Ginny like each other and are comfortable in each other's presence. A long list of it, in fact. Del simply disagreed with each canon example, stating that an abusive relationship *might* look like this as well. And she made this extreme counter claim, I might add, with absolutely no canon evidence to back it up. So what are we to even make of this? Some people might read abuse into the H/G relationship? So what? Some people might read pederasty into Sirius' character. People are free to project any number of personal issues onto the characters. This is neither JKR's fault or her responsibility. There is canon evidence throughout all six books which clearly shows us that Harry and Ginny care for one another. There is canon evidence in HBP that clearly shows that Harry and Ginny are happy together (see Grindiloe's list). People are free to interpret this evidence clearly contrary to the author's intent if they choose. But to hold up 'abusive H/G' as just as valid an interpretation as 'happy H/G' is completely absurd, imo. Max From joj at rochester.rr.com Sun Aug 7 18:21:22 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:21:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136859 > Pat: > > It doesn't. In message # 136610 I collected the facts about > love potions and the flowery scent and extrapolated that this is a > possibility. > > However, since I posted that, someone else discussed with me the > possibility that Ginny is unknowingly wearing love potion as > perfume. What if the perfume Ron gave to Hermione was, unknown to > him, some of the twins love potion, and Hermione gave it to Ginny > who is now wearing it. I can see it being that way, too. That would > give a more subtle effect as when Harry inhaled Amortentia fumes, > and would also explain the intermittent effect that I'm seeing. > If > it's a different love potion than Amortentia, that would explain > why > Harry doesn't also smell treacle tart and his Firebolt when Ginny > is > near him, as only Amortentia smells like your favorite things. And > it also could explain Ginny's popularity, which Del already > posted > on, so I can't claim that brainwave either. > > Pat Joj: Well, I don't know if I can subscribe to this theory, but it would explain Hermione's choice of the word unusual as describing the perfume. She would have to have smelled something different in HBP though, when she smelled the love potion, or she would have realized it was the same thing. I would love for there to be some explination for H/G and R/Hr, other that that was JKR's ultimate plan, but I'm trying hard to except that it's just that. I'll never enjoy R/Hr but they don't make me want to throw the book across the room like H/G does. I'll settle for reading HBP without the urge to toss the book at every H/G passage. I don't hope for more than that. From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Aug 7 18:40:20 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:40:20 -0000 Subject: Harry/Riddle and CHOICE WAS Re: Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136860 > > > > Vmonte wrote: > "There is no way that JKR would make Harry a rapist or an abuser." > > Del replies: > Agreed: there is no way *JKR* would make Harry > a bad guy. That doesn't mean that the Harry we > know couldn't turn into an abuser, in the hands > of another writer. To me, there's a small but > significant difference between saying "JKR won't > make Harry be an abuser" and "Harry cannot be an abuser". > > Vmonte wrote: > "I understand that you feel like you didn't get > enough of Harry-with-Ginny to make it real for > you, but it's another thing to start inventing > scenarios that are just not there." > > > I'm not saying the abuse is there. I'm just > saying that we don't have to rule it out > because JKR hasn't given us any ground to > rule it out. The only reason we rule it out > is because we ASSUME that she never intended to > write Harry as an abuser. But then I also assumed > that Harry would never even attempt to use one > of the Unforgivable Curses... > > > > Rizza wrote: > "I mean, it's one thing to have those > implications about a minor character > we hardly know, but we don't need to > imply anything about Harry's character, > especially something as big as this. We've > had six years to get to know him and have been > in and out of his mind more times than anyone > can count. He's not an abusive person in the least." > > Del replies: > Actually, it's PRECISELY because I've been > in Harry's head for so long that I thought > of the abuse scenario. I have seen things in > Harry's behaviour towards other people that > DO make me cringe, and that DO make me think > that such a boy could turn into an abuser > if he weren't protected by JKR's will. > > lots of snips... Okay, I suggest that Harry Potter is not an abuser/rapist (which all seem to agree upon) and could never become an abuser/rapist in the universe which J. K. Rowling has created. Also, in order to make Harry Potter an abuser/rapist, someone would have to change his entire character and nature.....I suggest that he would no longer be Harry Potter. I don't see how saying that another author could make him an abuser/rapist is relevant. I agree -- if this is fan fiction...take it to the fan fiction boards. Domestic violence/abuse is a system of control and domination. It always involves physical abuse or a credible threat of physical abuse. It oftens involve sexual abuse, corercion or rape. It (almost) always also involves other abusive tactics including threats, verbal abuse, psychological terrorism (such as depriving the victim of medication, food, sleep, toileting...intermittent reinforcement, etc), economic abuse, isolation, use of male or other privilege, etc. If you would like more information, including a chart of psychological terrorism, please email me at SusanGSmcGee at aol.com There are also signs of potential abusers: ? Is he very, very jealous? ? Does he want to know where you are every single minute? ? Does he drive away your friends and family? ? Does he have extreme highs and lows? ? Is he cruel to animals? ? Has he hit a former partner? Does he tell you in detail how terrible every former girlfriend was? Does he claim that former partners lied about him and put him in jai? ? Does he believe you belong to him? Does he tell you it's you and he against the world? ? When he gets angry, are you afraid of him? ? Did he grow up in a violent family? ? Does he say he can't "help" losing his temper? ? Does he say it's your fault when he is in a rage? ? Does he have contempt for women? ? Does he act like two totally different people? (Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?) ? Does he tell you he has to restrain you for your own good? Is he contemptious of all women? Does he say all women/girls are whores and out to get men? Please, let me caution readers....doing ONE of these things does not make you or someone else an abuser. Someone can be very controlling in a relationship yet not a batterer. Yes, the kids in HP can be very jealous, but that in itself does not make for abuse. For there to be abuse, there needs to be physical violence backed up by other controlling tactics. Please -- let's not split hairs. There are a few cases where someone is battered without physical abuse, but even in those cases you'll see the assailant demonstrating that he could kill or torture someone else in order to terrify and intimidate his victim. Abuse/battering is instrumental, not impulsive. Abusers do not lose their temper in one incident and hit their partner/girlfriend/spouse. They engage in a lifestyle of abuse. It's not about loss of control -- it's planned behavior. People might find the Survivor's Handbook which is online at http://www.mcadsv.org/general/MI%20DV% 20Handbook.pdf to be helpful. Now, let's compare and contrast Tom Riddle and Harry Potter. Both lost their parents - Tom's father abandoned Tom's mother, and Tom's mother died in infancy. Tom ended up at the orphanage. All he knows is that he's named after his father. Harry ends up at the Dursleys. All he knows is that his parents were killed in a car crash and that his aunt and uncle won't talk about them. Harry did have 15 months of bonding with loving parents -- which makes a huge difference. They are quite alike in their childhoods. Beyond familial influences (which are important), is the important issue that Battering/Abuse/Rape is a choice! Just like Dumbledore says...it's our choices that determine who we are. That's canon. Big time. Sirius versus Regulus choices... Petunia/Lily....Percy/Ron..Albus/Aberforth...Albus preferred birds to goats (just a little joke here).. We see examples of siblings making different choices throughout the books. Tom Riddle becomes a much different person than Harry Potter. He is a loner, he is secretive, more importantly we see early signs of his personality. He hangs a rabbit. He hurts other children. He steals. He responds to the threat of being put in an asylum with anger and threats. He carefully calculates his behavior; being "polite" to DD. He knows he's special. He's consumed with anger, and malice. All major signs of abusers.. Harry on the other hand does not really believe he could be special. He delights in the idea of having Hagrid as a friend/mentor. He is delighted and amazed by the wizarding world. He is not calculating. He is not geared towards becoming "great". He chooses to be a Gryfinddor and not a Slytherin. He is constantly bullied by Dudley and his friends. His reactive magic is mostly self defensive. He finds himself on the top of the roof; the sweater shrinks... He does not consciously vanish the window..... His outburst at Aunt Marge is as a result of her constant abuse/badgering/insults...he truly does lose his temper.... Harry is interested in friendship and immediately makes friends at Hogwarts -- Ron, Hermione, Hagrid. He is delighted to be at the Weasleys. He shows no signs of being controlling towards his girlfriends. His character is not one of an abuser or rapist. And it is not equivalent to a situation where a young woman meets a young man who is an abuser and doesn't realize it because he is consciously charming, romantic, and on his best behavior. (and yes, there are girls/women who are abusers, too..) We get to observe Harry and his life over several years from the outside. So I suggest that there is no canonical evidence to support Harry being or becoming an abuser or a rapist and a great deal of canonical eevidence to the contrary. He has made significant life choices. Susan McGee From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Aug 7 18:48:12 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:48:12 -0000 Subject: The books are not about rape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136861 ,> > As a H/Hr shipper, I remember I used to get upset when some R/Hr > shippers theorized of Harry being the 'violent' type... their canon > evidence for this belief was the Fight and Flight chapter in OoTP, > in which Harry "felt" like wanting to "shake" Hermione. So, even > though I don't believe that Harry is a violent person, or that he'd > resort to abuse his girlfriend, I can see where some people get > their ideas from. As Del stated in another post, it's not the > readers whom are bringing violence/abuse/rape to the HP universe, > it's the author herself whom brought them in. I don't think Harry "feeling" as if he wants to "shake" Hermione counts as violence or abuse. I was brought up in the Catholic Church where we were taught that intending to do something, or feeling it, was a sin. I no longer believe that. Only actions count. > I give you example of this: Hermione's canary attack. While it > looked like a funny scene at first -especially because it happened > to Ron-, when I read the book a second time this scene hit me like a > bullet! On this second time, when I already I knew that Hr/R ship > was about to sail in next book, that canary scene striked me as too > violent for my taste. > I wondered: how can any couple come up to terms or feel good with > each other after one of them has so purposedly "hurt" the other? I > don't know... but despite JKR's other nice messages about > friendship, love, etc., this scene alone kind of kills it for me. > What's a 12 year-old girl going to think after reading that scene? > That hurting a boy you like is okay if he's crossed you, because > he's going out with another girl and not you? > I could have even accepted a "petrificus totalus" or a "silencio" > spell on Ron, but a canary attack? We know that it was not a mild > thing, it left marks on Ron's face and hands -that had been covering > his eyes, mind you- for days afterwards... > > So who is bringing violence or abuse to HP world? > I don't like this scene either, but I don't think it's characterisic of Hermione. I disagree with JKR putting this scene in... Do I think it makes Hermione an abuser? No. I think it's an isolated incident. I think it might reflect JKR's belief that there can be isolated incidents of violence, for example, someone slapping someone else once...but I don't agree with her. Susan From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 19:31:46 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 19:31:46 -0000 Subject: Was:SHIP Re: Harry and Ginny: Harry/Luna In-Reply-To: <20050807024403.27730.qmail@web30012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136862 > Lynda says: I considered a H/L ship, but I couldn't get there, because imho Luna would drive Harry nuts. She'd try to take him along on a hunt for crumple-horned snorkaks or some other "mythological" beast and he'd want to be off fighting evil wizards and saving people. Different types of quests entirely (again JMHO). I just wanted to say a little something about H/L. you say she would drive him crazy, but we know it wouldn't based on Harry's actions at the Slug party with her. He found her to be amusing and he ended up being glad he took her. As for the crazy quests, I actually think they would be romantic. Imagine Harry, long hard year of world saving has this conversation with Luna. Luna: It's time for our annual trip to Sweden to look for Snorkaks. I feel good about our chances this year. Harry: We didn't find anything last year, Lune, what makes you think we'll have better luck this summer? Luna (smiling serenely): we'll just have to make sure we actually leave the hotel room this time. Harry (also smiling): That *was* a good vacation, wasn't it? (walks off whistling) Harry likes Luna. He thinks she is funny-weird, not creepy-weird like every other student. She has a lighthearted sense of humor that I think would do well to balance out Harry's edge. Ginny doesn't do that. While she is funny, her sense of humor is all about mocking/pranks/insults. It tears down, not builds up. Luna is just more pleasant in my view. I think Ginny would get old while Luna would always be fresh. Just one wacky H/Ler's opinion phoenixgod2000 From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Aug 7 19:40:24 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 19:40:24 -0000 Subject: Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136863 Marianne S.: If I understand the timeline correctly, Snape was working for Voldemort at the time he first applied for a teaching post at Hogwarts. It is unclear to me if he started teaching that year or the next, after the fall of Voldemort. houyhnhnm: During Dolores Umbridge's "walk through" of Snape's classroom, he tells her he as been teaching at Hogwart's for 14 years. "Now...how long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" she asked, her quill poised over her clipboard. "Fourteen years," Snape replied. His expression was unfathomable. (OotP, AR, p. 363) This means that he would have been hired when Harry was around a year old, which is consistant with what we already know and take for granted, that Snape went to Dumbledore and offered to turn his coat a few months *before* the Potters were killed. A few pages later, when Professor Trelawney loses it in class, after getting the results of her inspection back, she says: "I say nothing," she choked, "of sixteen years devoted service .... It has passed, apparently unnoticed....But I shall not be insulted, no, I shall not!" (OotP, AE, p. 366) This means that the prophecy must have been made at least a full year before Harry was born, which I had not realized before. And it means that two years elapsed between the time Snape overheard the prophecy and the time he began teaching at Hogwarts. From meusel at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 7 17:29:35 2005 From: meusel at sbcglobal.net (alm48er) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 17:29:35 -0000 Subject: Chapter 1 (somewhat long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Just to be accurate for the benefit of non-UK readers, Chapter 1 is set > in the summer of 1996. The Prime Minister was John Major, in his last > year of office (and the US President was, of course, Bill Clinton). > Tony Blair was not elected until May 1997. > > So Blair/Bush analogies aren't strictly correct. It would be > interesting to have a take on Blair meeting Rufus Scrimgeour... > :-) While I agree with Geoff that HBP probably took place during Major's term (which is why I included his name and put it first), I think that JKR may be having some fun with politics. I believe that Larry Gelbart at some point admitted that M*A*S*H was really more about the Vietnam War than the Korean War, even though it was set in 1950 Korea. Something similar may be going on, here, especially as world events changed from the time she conceived the series to the time she actually sat down and wrote, or re-wrote this chapter. One detail that makes me think she's playing was the use of the pronoun "he" to refer to the current PM's predecessor (wasn't Major right after Thatcher?); that could have been an attempt to place HP clearly in a fictional land where the then current male PM followed another male PM, or could it have been her taking liberties with time? HOWEVER, I still would like to know whether people think that Kingsley Shacklebolt's position is highly significant for the plot or just another red herring! For the record, I think his placement high up in the Muggle government is significant. After all, look what he was doing in OotP - all the while he was assigned by the MoM to find Sirius Black, he was diverting anyone from actually finding him. Would he be assigned by the Order to continue with this sleight-of-hand, and thus, what would his assignment be? In my earlier post, I suggested him as a possible outside contact for Snape; after all, he wasn't posted at Hogwarts and thus wouldn't immediately know that Snape killed DD, and may even be part of the plan. I think it was a plan, but not an exact plan, as many posters have said. Something went pear-shaped on top of the Astronomy tower and Snape was forced by circumstance to AK Dumbledore. DD gives out information on a "need to know only" basis, and Shacklebolt may have needed to know that Snape may be going under deep cover and why. Hence, his new assignment. (What can I say? In response to HBP, I've begun to read spy novels, starting with LeCarre's, "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold"!) alm From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 20:07:02 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:07:02 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth / Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136865 Combined answer to Susan McGee, Rizza and Vmonte. --- Susan McGee, I consider Tom to be a sociopath. I have given canon to defend that opinion before. So I don't see any point in comparing anyone to him, or in discussing the morality of his choices. --- Rizza wrote: "You do realize you're contradicing yourself right? You're demanding cannon to prove her belief that Harry COULD NOT turn into a sexual predator, yet you haven't, nor can you provide cannon to support your belief that he COULD!" Del replies Not true. I HAVE given the short version of my reasons why I think Harry, as described in the books, *could* turn to abusing Ginny. Not necessarily in a sexual way, by the way, physical/sexual abuse is not the only type of abuse there is. Message 136037: "* I see a boy who imposes his will on his girl. * I see a boy who doesn't care to hurt his girl as long as it makes things easier for him. * I see a relationship that is deemed good because it makes the boy happy, but nothing is said about the girl. * I see a relationship where we don't know anything of what happens when they are together. * I remember that this boy had the habit of shouting loud and long to force his female best friend to shut up in the last book. * I also remember that this boy didn't care one bit what his former girlfriend needed, and that he got angry when it was explained to him what her emotional needs were. I remember that this boy had a mental image of what he wanted his former girlfriend to be, and that he didn't like it when she didn't conform. * And of course, I remember that this boy was raised without love, that he was emotionally abused or at least neglected as a kid, and that he doesn't have a parental figure to turn to for counsel anymore. For all those reasons and more, I see a boy who is a potential abuser indeed. Maybe not a physical one, but an emotional one for sure." Interestingly enough, *right after that*, I wrote: "Now, I sincerely doubt that JKR would make Harry abuse Ginny. But the fact remains that she gave many clues that he could be, and none that their relationship is in fact healthy." Could I make it any clearer and plainer? Rizza wrote: "Unless there is a sentence in any of the books that says Harry himself believes he will or will not grow up to be abusive, or someone says it of/to him, using those exact words. Unless I'm mistaken, the said sentences do not exist. Because, whatever you pull out of the books to support your theory, she could read it in a completely different way. And vice versa." Del replies: Agreed. And if OoP!Harry had not happened, I would be the first one to say that the presumptions concerning Harry should be ones of innocence. However, OoP!Harry did happen, and that shattered my positively pre-set view of Harry. I absolutely HATED OoP!Harry, and even though I liked HBP!Harry much MUCH more, I still have this sour taste in my mental mouth that reminds me that Harry has not always been an angel, and that nobody has helped him deal with his issues yet. Just so you know, I also believe that OoP!Harry was NOT really Harry. I believe that his bad and short temper was a direct consequence of his being linked to LV, that he was only reflecting LV's mental and emotional state. But this is only a conclusion that I can make from not-very-conclusive proofs, mainly the fact that Harry's behaviour changed drastically at the beginning of OoP, and again at the beginning of HBP. There's no definite proof that OoP!Harry was not due at least in part to some violent streak in Harry's temper. So I can't help but wonder if that streak exists or not. I BELIEVE that it doesn't, but when imagining POSSIBILITIES, I can take it in consideration. Rizza wrote: "Message 136773, your third reply. That's what she was talking about, not every other oppinion you've shared in this post. " Del replies: So I write about my own life in one post out of way too many for even my own taste, and that's enough to say that I talk more about my life than Harry's? Rizza wrote: "Are you telling me you DON'T think Draco is for being adherent to his parents' principles?" Del replies: I don't think that Draco is what, exactly? I guess the word is "wrong". And yes I do think Draco is morally wrong to adhere to his parents' principles. However, this has nothing to do with valuing family. We know that the fate of his parents is tightly tied to Draco's success in his task. Should Draco not care about his parents? If you answer is "no, he shouldn't, because they are jerks", then how can you support the statement that JKR is teaching children to value family? Teaching children to value family would be teaching that you should still love your family, uphold their honour, and work for their good (your own idea of good, not necessarily theirs), NO MATTER WHAT. That's the way I see it, anyway. And this is not what I see in the HP books. Not at all. Rizza wrote: "So should Sirius be condemned for breaking free and having a mind of his own, rather than being a prejudiced psychopath who's main goal in life is to annihilate those whom he belives to be beneath him? If he had stayed with his family, that's exactly what he would have been." Del replies: I applaud Sirius for doing what he thought was right. But I condemn him for speaking ill of them, and ONLY ill, even though they are all dead. The closest thing to a compliment Sirius ever paid them is that they were never DEs. Sirius kept going over the most negative characteristics of his relatives. I don't call that "valuing family". I totally understand why Sirius felt and acted that way, but I don't think that we can say that JKR teaches children to value family. JKR teaches children to value what is right over everything else, including family. That's a message I quite agree with. But I can't agree that JKR is teaching kids to value family, not when she clearly supports all those characters who drop like old smelly socks those family members whom they disagree with. That's all. Rizza wrote: "When another writer gets permission from JKR to write his/her own versions of Harry's life, let me know. Until then, this is still JKR's Harry Potter." Del replies: Granted, it's JKR's Harry. But the romance between Harry and Ginny CANNOT be JKR's version of it, because she did NOT give us that version. So this particular romance is BOUND to be each reader's version of it. This was the problem that started that whole mess, if you'll remember. HappyBoyfriend!Harry is NOT defined in canon, he's totally dependent on how the readers want to see him. Rizza wrote: "Anyway, yes there is a difference, and I still choose to believe the latter. Why? Because even if JKR decided to write fifty more books after the seventh, she would not write Harry as an abusive man. He's the main character, the hero, the one whom millions of children around the world look up to, identify with in one way or another, " Del replies: That's what you (and I, but you don't seem to believe me on that point) BELIEVE. But there's no PROOF of that. By not showing HappyBoyfriend!Harry, JKR missed the perfect opportunity to show us what kind of boyfriend Harry can be with someone he's got a real connection to. So we have to rely on our BELIEF that JKR never meant Harry to be a bad boyfriend, and that she expects us to imagine Harry as our Dream Boyfriend or something. But she never gave us any proof that Harry is indeed that Dream Boyfriend. So, within the confines of THEORY, I challenged that belief, showing that the canon CAN support Abusive!Harry. I fail to see why so many people find such a *speculation* offensive. Rizza wrote: "Logical: reasoning or capable of reasoning in a clear and consistent manner. As far as I know you've been more contradictory to and inconsistent in your statements than anyone else who's had a say on this topic. Are you theorizing about Harry Potter who exists in JKR's "Harry Potter..." series? Or are you talking about a Harry Potter who could exist away from JKR's pen? Make THAT clear to me. Because you seem to be arguing in both cases..." Del replies: Do you understand how canon-based speculation works? Canon-based speculation, as its name indicates, is based on canon. I HAVE used canon repeatedly to make my points, and AFAIK none of my speculations go straight against a clear (ie non-subject to personal interpretation) piece of canon. Speculation, on the other hand, clearly indicates that, as DD would put it (paraphrase), we are leaving the domain of hard facts to enter the domain of theories and possibilities. So *by definition* a speculation CANNOT be confined to the clear facts in the books. If it is, then it's not a speculation, it's a fact. Moreover, what I BELIEVE and what I THEORISE do *not* have to agree. I think the confusion comes from the fact that many people don't seem to grasp that point: I can freely theorise about something I don't believe. I see no reason to limit my speculation to the areas that I happen to believe. I find this stifling, to say the least. I believe that many people on this list have written very elaborate theories in which they didn't necessarily believe (most of the ESE! theories would fall in that category, I think). That's what canon-based speculation is about: taking the canon, and building from and around it. Rizza wrote: "*Rizza* who is suddenly reminded of the best phrase ever uttered in this group- *AGREE TO DISAGREE*" Del replies: If you believe in that principle, then why did you challenge my right to speculate about Abusive!Harry? --- Vmonte wrote: "If your argument is that Harry could be one in the hands of a different writer then I'm not interested." Del replies: No, my argument is that Harry *as JKR has written him* CAN be an abuser, and the only reason I know that Harry is NOT an abuser is because I *believe* that JKR never meant him to be, and will never mean him to be. IOW, I have FAITH that Harry is not an abuser. But I do NOT have KNOWLEDGE that he isn't. He has shown many signs that have troubled me over the books (see above for a short summary of them), and only my belief that JKR doesn't mean Harry to ever be abusive is preventing me from actually believing that he might be (not that he is, just that he might be). However, just because I don't *believe* that Harry is abusive, is no reason not to *speculate* about it. As I explained above, I do not limit my speculations to what I believe. That would be boring and extremely stifling. Sometimes, it's out of the wildest canon-based speculations that very valuable insights into the characters or the plot arise. Vmonte wrote: "I'm reading JKR's Harry Potter not your fanfic about Harry Potter." Del replies: Good, because you would have to wait a long time to read a HP fanfic of mine. I don't write HP fanfic, and I don't read it either. Vmonte wrote: "Yes, that is what I mean. If your family is a bunch of murderers or Nazis you should not follow in their steps. It makes a lot of sense, no? The Weasley's are a good family, Draco's, and Sirius's are not." Del replies: This has NOTHING to do with valuing family. This has to do with taking the right path, no matter what obstacles your loved ones put in your path. Vmonte wrote: "So your a fool to give people a second chance? I don't see Dumbledore as the fool, I see Snape as the fool." Del replies: Believing that someone has reformed in the face of mountain-sized (and mounting still) evidence IS being a fool, IMO. Giving a second chance to someone is not an end in itself: it's a means. A means for that person to take a new start. But if the evidence points to the fact that this person has not taken a new start and is still walking in their old ways, then I think it is indeed foolish to keep trusting them. Vmonte wrote: "Again, I'm reading JKR's books not your fanfic. Harry was unable to use the unforgivable curses on Snape because he doesn't have it in him." Del replies: I don't CARE that Harry didn't manage to make the Unforgivable curses work. What I care about is that he TRIED. If someone takes a gun and shoots straight at someone else, I don't care that they miss, I only care that they actually pulled the trigger (excepting the cases of self-defense, which are not relevant to this discussion). Harry attempted to use curses that he knew were both evil and illegal. There's no excuse for that in my eyes. Just like I would not excuse someone who shot at someone else, even if they missed. Vmonte wrote: "Thank God that he is protected by JKR's will and not yours. What you are seeing is a manifestation of your own head, not hers." Del replies: JKR did NOT show me what HappyBoyfriend!Harry looks like. Using my imagination to speculate is absolutely fair game, IMO. Vmonte wrote: "I'm also going to add another comment here. You have a choice whether to believe the factual Harry, the one that is printed on the page, or the Harry that is capable of anything, which resides in your head. " Del replies: 1. Show me where to find the factual HappyBoyfriend!Harry. 2. I'm not the one who wrote that Harry was capable of trying to use an Unforgivable. I would NEVER have believed that before OoP. That episode taught me NEVER to assume anything about anyone anymore in the Potterverse, not even Harry, the one person I thought I could be sure would never fall that low. Vmonte wrote: "I actually appreciated this discussion because I can know understand how Snape deludes himself about Harry. You do not understand Harry anymore than Snape does, and that is very sad." Del replies: Thanks for the psychoanalysis, but I won't take your word for truth, if you don't mind. For all I know, you might be the one who don't understand Harry (and no, I don't BELIEVE that, it is just a SPECULATION, got it?) Del From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 20:16:55 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:16:55 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136866 Carol Wrote: > It seems certain to me that > Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable > Vow. First, he is not surprised when > Harry mentions it Dumbledore was not surprised that Snape told Draco that he had made an Unbreakable Vow to aid him in his mission, but I believe he would be flabbergasted to know that he had really done it. > When Harry tells Dumbledore about > this conversation, Dumbledore is > not only not surprised, he tells > Harry that it's likely he understands > more from it than Harry does, > a statement that the reader ought also. Yes he said that, Dumbledore also told Harry that Draco hanging around the Room Of Requirements was not important and it was silly for Harry to worry about Death Eaters getting into the castle while they were both away getting the (fake) Horcrux. We reader now know from book 5 and 6 that Dumbledore can be completely and disastrously wrong. > I still have hope that Snape > is loyal to Dumbledore The only way that could possibly be true is if Dumbledore is not really dead and the entire murder scene was some sort of elaborate hoax; but if JKR pulls that then the next book will be absolutely dreadful and the lady seems incapable of writing a bad book. I don't care if Snape turns into the reincarnation of Mother Theresa in the next book, the stinking piece of slime murdered Dumbledore and that is quite simply unforgivable regardless of circumstances. Eggplant From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Aug 7 20:23:38 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:23:38 -0000 Subject: Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136867 > houyhnhnm: >snip > This means that he would have been hired when Harry was around a year > old, which is consistant with what we already know and take for > granted, that Snape went to Dumbledore and offered to turn his coat a > few months *before* the Potters were killed. Potioncat: While we know Snape re-joined DD before LV fell, we don't actually know how long before. It could have been months (minimum, I think) or a year, or more? Based on what we've learned in HBP Snape hadn't turned at the point of the Prophecy. (Unless DD was being tricky, here.) > Houyhnhnm: > This means that the prophecy must have been made at least a full year > before Harry was born, which I had not realized before. And it means > that two years elapsed between the time Snape overheard the prophecy > and the time he began teaching at Hogwarts. Potioncat: Trelawney also says that Snape was applying for a job and was listening in to get tips. So, could it possibly be that on LV's orders Snape begins applying for the perpetually vacant DADA job, but is rejected a couple of times. Then when the Potions position comes open because Slughorn is retiring, DD hires Snape. It could even be that DD is hiring him because he's turned back to DD's side. If there is any truth in the story that Snape was bothered that his information had endangered the Potters, then moving Snape to Hogwarts that year was particularly well timed. From AllieS426 at aol.com Sun Aug 7 20:43:30 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:43:30 -0000 Subject: Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > > Anyway, Chapter 1 was very amusing with all the Prime Minister funny > > stuff about Major/Blair.... > > alm > > Speaking of the first chapter, did anyone notice the similarities > between the guy in the portrait and Umbridge? Froglike face and a > very pronounced and obnoxious cough. Maybe it's just me. > > - ongj87 Yes, yes, I did! But I have no idea how that could be significant! Relatives? Trevor? Animagi? Allie From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Aug 7 20:50:55 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:50:55 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136869 Del wrote: > Just because Percy is not helping the Order (does he even know about > them?), doesn't mean he's not helping in the war efforts. Nora replied: I don't have too much hope on that front, given the state of the Ministry as presented in HBP. Different leader, still fairly ineffective. HunterGreen: Doesn't mean he's not helping in his own way. We don't know if anyone has asked him to join the order, and if they had, I'd bet he'd be very uncomfortable with it, and there's not a lot he could do, he's not exactly a fighter. But the Ministry is no longer trying to subvert the fight against Voldemort, even if their methods are somewhat odd. Del: > What about the Twins deliberately walking on the unsconscious > Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle? Nora: >>After those three instigated the situation, one is more tempted to read it as JKR writing comeuppance.<< HunterGreen: And that's exactly what Draco was after. Harry was hiding in his cabin, *spying* on him, remember. And Draco is not a nice person, his reaction was not that surprising (to me at least). About an hour later Harry was fine (sure Draco intended him to end up in London, but he didn't). Its not exactly innocent, but seeing how he could have *murdered* Harry if he wanted to, Harry got off easy. Del: > What about James and Sirius attacking Snape when he's already down? > > As usual, it's awful when Draco does it, but the good guys always > have a good excuse, huh? And the fact that Harry was *spying* on > Draco is not a good excuse, I suppose? Nora: >>Del, if you want to argue that spying or skulking around is a good enough reason to get someone beat up, then your argument can actually be used to endorse the ways that the Marauders treated Snape. Black tells us that Snape was always skulking around, trying to find out what they were doing (just as Harry was with Draco?): does that make their actions justified? By your argument, it does.<< HunterGreen: Not exactly. Harry was caught *in the act*. If Sirius and James found Snape hiding behind a tree (for example) to spy on them, then I would have a lot less sympathy for Snape than I did in the pensieve scene. Though I'm sure there were many times that Snape did deserve whatever curses they threw at him (and that he threw some back), we have at least once example of them attacking without provacation and going two-on-one, no less. They don't break his nose, but humiliating him in front of a group of people probably caused more lasting damage (at least Draco waited until the other Slytherins were gone). -Rebecca / HunterGreen From pfsch at gmx.de Sun Aug 7 20:54:21 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Schuster) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:54:21 +0200 Subject: Fleur+Bill In-Reply-To: <1123427570.1701.25635.m23@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123427570.1701.25635.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <42F674FD.9070709@gmx.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136870 Ginger wrote: > I have to wonder how she would have felt had he apparated to the > Hog's Head for karoke night, had a few too many, decided to catch the > Knight Bus home rather than risk splinching, and was standing with > his wand-arm out, when he was attacked by a werewolf. Or worse, > taking a leak in the street and had to be saved by someone else. I reckon she admires Bill because of his character. Would the Billy she fell in love with do such a thing? If yes, she would live with it. If not, we shouldn't think about that possibility to much. -- Goodbite setrok (http://www.peterfelixschuster.de) From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 21:02:43 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:02:43 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136871 > >>Betsy Hp: > > > >So while I'm personally a bit disturbed by [Fred and George] (and > >consequently have a lot of sympathy for Percy) I'm not sure that > >JKR means them to be anything other than merry pranksters. > > > >>vmonte: > The twins are awful, but Percy is good? > Betsy Hp: At this point only JKR knows for sure. However, what *I* said is that I'm disturbed by the twins and feel sympathy towards Percy. I'm pretty much a sucker for the underdog. And when it's Percy versus Fred and George, Percy is definitely the underdog. I'm *hopeful* that Percy may be spying for the Order. I *fear* that the twins may get seduced by the Death Eaters. But I'm honestly not willing to place bets on either scenario because I can't get a read on how *JKR* sees those characters. Frankly, they may stay pretty much how they are. Fred and George obnoxious pranksters, willing to sell anything to anyone, Percy a rigid by-the-book guy, permanently estranged from the family that so devalued him. > >>vmonte: > > His father is dying in the hospital during OOTP (at least there was > a good possiblity that that might happen) and Percy refuses to see > him because of a stupid fight? > Betsy Hp: For one, as Del pointed out on this thread, when did Percy learn of Arthur's injuries? For another, that "stupid fight" was Arthur accusing Percy of spying on his family. Since Arthur was injured while on Order work isn't Percy once more proving that he isn't a spy? Actually, considering that Percy refused to spy on his family (made obvious by his avoidence of them), and considering that with each regime change Percy has risen higher in the ranks, even though he's *not* a Ministry link into Order business, I think Arthur owes him an apology. (I imagine both men are suffering from a surfeit of pride. A major cause of family breaks, unfortunately, and proof, IMO, that the Weasleys are a *normal* family, not an ideal.) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135990 > >>Betsy Hp: > > > >I got a bit of guilty pleasure out of Draco's "revenge" on Harry. > >For two reasons: First, after the many, many, *many* times Harry > >has stomped Draco, it was nice to finally see Draco get a bit of > >his own back. (That was the "guilty" part of my pleasure, I will > >admit.) > > > >>vmonte responds: > You don't see a difference between Harry's behavior and Draco's? > Betsy Hp: No. Not at all, actually. Harry has no problem taking Draco down with maximum force and then leaving him for the clean up crew. He's done it on the past two train rides home from Hogwarts. And he did it on the Quidditch pitch in OotP, where he and George had to be blasted off of Draco's body, if you'll recall, and where Harry walks away with bruised knuckles and Draco doesn't walk away. In all cases (Draco's one, Harry's many) neither boy behaves well. As I said, it was a guilty pleasure. What *really* pleased me (you snipped this part of my former post) was the fact that Draco did nothing further to Harry. Harry was completely at Draco's mercy. We know that Draco had been receiving tutoring from his Aunt Bellatrix all summer. And the *only* thing Draco does is break Harry's nose and leave him on the train. I was *thrilled* that with this scene JKR showed us once and for all that Draco is not an evil little boy. > >>vmonte: > > The bathroom scene with Harry also upset me. > > Still, there is a difference between Harry's horror at what he has > done (probably the same horror that motivated James into saving > Snape) and Draco's reaction to what he himself has done, no? Betsy Hp: Just as there's a difference between breaking someone's nose and gutting them? Remember, on the train Draco was completely in control and accomplishes exactly what he wanted to accomplish: and it wasn't Harry's death. In the bathroom Harry is confused (Slytherins have feelings?) and flailing (Draco fights back?) and he does something out of panic which nearly ends in Draco's death. There *should* be different reactions from each boy in each scene. > >>Nora: > > I think the fact that Draco was about to cast Cruciatus upon Harry > is well-worth considering here. It doesn't make Harry's actions any > less stupid, but it does provide a fully understandable motivation. > Harry knows what that spell does first-hand in a way that sheltered > Draco probably actually does not. That is to say, I bet Draco had > cast it before, but I doubt he'd genuinely been in the other > position. Draco's rather like that. Betsy Hp: Draco *was* like that. He *was* a sheltered and cosseted boy in a way Harry's never been. But he's being used as a pawn to assuage Voldemort's anger and punish his father now. And he's been under Aunt Bellatrix's gentle tutelage. It wouldn't surprise me a little bit if Draco has learned something about pain. > >>Nora: > And the issue is also one's reactions after it. Harry is genuinely > horrified after he does these Bad Things. Betsy Hp: Harry is horrified when he nearly kills Draco. But he doesn't seem all that upset after he beats Draco, or covers him in hexes. And he's amused after Draco is transfigured into a ferret and flung about the room. So I don't really hold it against Draco that *he's* amused at breaking Harry's nose and leaving him on the train to London. > >>Nora: > Draco's remorse for his actions is more subtly drawn if even there. Betsy Hp: Throughout HBP Draco falls further and further apart. He doesn't turn in assignments, he stops playing quidditch. After Katie is taken to St. Mungos even Harry notices that he looks ill. (For Harry to notice, I imagine Draco looked awful.) And he disappears into the boys bathroom to break into sobs and lean on Moaning Myrtle for comfort. Draco is certainly feeling *something*. > >>Nora: > Sure, he's crying in the bathroom and he does not have the will to > actually kill Dumbledore--this speaks of him not actually being a > killer. On the other hand, he has two attempted murders on his > hands--any remorse for that? No clue. Betsy Hp: Dumbledore tells Draco that he's not a killer, and he calls him an innocent. I think Draco *does* feel remorse. I think he feels just as sick about what happened to Katie and Ron as Harry felt in the bathroom. Because Harry too, is not a killer (Peter Pettigrew in the shack, PoA) and is, incredibly as per Dumbledore, still an innocent. So, in answer to the subject line, I think Draco, Snape and Harry are good, and the twins are, at this point, neutral (will sell anything to anyone with the money to buy). Betsy Hp From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Aug 7 21:17:06 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:17:06 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Killing (was Because it's dead. Re: Dumbledore's wounded hand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136872 Jen: But it doesn't explain why no one mentioned the mark--they all handled it, trying to open it. Either they didn't take notice because everything was Slytherin-related or it's not the right locket, either. houyhnhnm: I think it's the former. Here are serpent and locket references in OotP (Am. Ed.) *** Harry walked up the worn stone steps, staring at the newly materialized door. Its black paint was shabby and scratched. The silver door knocker was in the form of a twisted serpent. (OotP, p. 60) Both the chandelier and the candelabra on a rickety table nearby were shaped like serpents. (OotP, p.61) Mrs. Weasley pointed at the dusty glass-fronted cabinets standing on either side of the mantelpiece. They were crammed with an odd assortment of objects: a selection of rusty daggers, claws, a coiled snakeskin, silver boxes inscribed with languages Harry could not understand and, least pleasant of all, an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, full of what Harry was quite sure was blood. (OotP, p. 105-106) They found an unpleasant looking silver instrument [...] also a heavy locket that none of them could open. (OotP, p. 116) *** It is not surprising that no one's attention was particularly drawn to the locket even if it was Slytherin's. They wouldn't have been able to open it if they tried to open it as an ordinary locket and it was sealed with magic. (good thing, too.) What has to be explained away is Harry's failure to recognize it next year in the pensieve. (If *none* could open it, that must include Harry, which means he must have handled it) He has two opportunities (Caractacus Burke didn't show the locket in his memory; he only described it as having Slytherin's mark on it.) *** "See this," he bellowed at Ogden, shaking a heavy gold locket at him while Merope spluttered and gasped for breath. (HBP, p. 207) *** She slid back the fine filigree clasp and flipped open the box. There upon the smooth crimson velvet lay a heavy golden locket. Voldemort reached out his hand, without hesitation this time. and held it up to the light, staring at it. "Slytherin's mark," he said quietly, as the light played upon an ornate serpentine S. (HBP, p. 437) *** An awful lot has happened to Harry since he was in Grimmauld Place back at the beginning of the fifth year, especially Sirius' death. Harry hates the thought of Grimmauld Place. It is not surprising that he doesn't remember anything about the contents of the house at this point. He has probably blocked out those memories. I'm betting he will remember the locket fairly early on in book 7. I think, between this evidence and Rowling's answers in the LC/Mugglenet interview, it's a pretty safe bet that R.A.B. is Regulus Black and that the heavy locket none could open is the horcrux. As to how he managed it, I'm completely stumped. I may have to wait for the book. But what happened to it? Did Kreacher take it? Fred and George? Mundungus? Is it still in the house? Did it go out with the sack of trash in which Sirius placed it? What do wizards who live isolated in unplottable houses do with their trash, anyway? Surely, Arthur Weasley would never have allowed a sackful of dark artifacts to be put out for Muggle sanitation workers to pick up. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 21:49:54 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:49:54 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136873 > > > >>Nora: > > Draco's remorse for his actions is more subtly drawn if even there. > > Betsy Hp: > Throughout HBP Draco falls further and further apart. He doesn't > turn in assignments, he stops playing quidditch. After Katie is > taken to St. Mungos even Harry notices that he looks ill. (For Harry > to notice, I imagine Draco looked awful.) And he disappears into the > boys bathroom to break into sobs and lean on Moaning Myrtle for > comfort. Draco is certainly feeling *something*. Alla: I am happy if he does and again I was VERY surprised that he did not manage to kill Dumbledore, BUT the fact is that he took this asignment initially because he wanted glory for himself as he tells his fellow Slytherins on the train. I am thinking what he felt was fear of taking somebody's life, which is a good first step, but remorse? Not sure. > Betsy Hp: > So, in answer to the subject line, I think Draco, Snape and Harry are > good, and the twins are, at this point, neutral (will sell anything > to anyone with the money to buy). > Alla: My answer to subject line would be that Harry is good ( not saintly, mind you, but good overall), twins are .... hmmmm, I would call them useful JKR's tools for vicarious retribution and for humor. Draco is .... well, someone who has two attempted murders to atone for, but not managed to finish them. I would not call him good yet,definitely not, but a bit better than I always thought about him. And Snape IS a murderer, IMO. JMO of course, Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Aug 7 21:56:30 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:56:30 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End in Real Life (and a trailor tip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136874 > Geoff: > A couple of points. > > (1) Back in the early post-HBP days(!), I wrote in message 132927: > > "Spinner's End. We still don't know where it is. But the ruined > chimney and the name of the road make me think of a Lancashire cotton > town ? I grew up in one. Workers in the mills were sometimes called > weavers or spinners. This chapter though, for me, was a real eye- > opener so early in the book." Potioncat: I have a similar backgroud, although in the southern US. > Geoff: snip The names of an industrial estate in Cradley Heath in the > West Midlands and an area in Weston-Super-Mare in North Somerset > featured in the discussion. It is interesting to re-read these > threads in hindsight. Potioncat: I'm snipping this from the thread Geoff recommended: In post 116898 Bboy wrote: In addition, when I Googled (google.co.uk) "Spinners End", I found an ancestory website with a discussion board which was discussing problems in using the 1881/91 census. Apparently, the census takers often strayed while polling people, so there were frequenly gaps in the street addresses that were added when the census taker returned at a later date. Potioncat: Can't you just imagine it? The wizarding families who have homes in the Mill houses have put up spells that cause Census Takers to stray... While I may have wandered far from canon here, I can imagine that Magical spinners may have lived in the area for generations. Perhaps unaware of, but influenced by the magic, Muggles build spinning mills in the area. The Muggle communities then grow up around the magic families. Thanks to everyone who responded with information about the possible inspiration for Spinner's End. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 22:00:25 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:00:25 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was Re: Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136875 I don't think there is any canon that would support the twins are bad, just incredibly mischievious and often reckless. Examples of this recklessness include giving Dudley the Tongue Ton Toffee and testing their products on students. Nevertheless, I agree with those who see them as Merry Pranksters. Nevertheless, they are clearly growing up. 'They have definite business acumen, that's for sure. They're running a successful business (at age 18) and already getting huge commissions to create defensive products for the ministry. I don't think anyone can really blame the twins for Draco buying their product. We see a big difference between the Twins and Percy in their post Hogwarts years. Despite the fact that the Twins behaved in a way that was less that Molly would have hoped, and doesn't she say she was against them going into business? However, instead of just turning away from their family, the Twins still chose to remain close. Percy, \on the other hand, was the student that Molly dreamed of, and I am sure she was very supportive of his career choice. Yet, despite that love and support, Percy decided he would be better off pledging his allegiance to the Ministry and abandoning his family. I could see how it would be considered nice that he didn't lead the Ministry to the Order, but could he have anyway since he was not the secret keeper? Nevertheless... sending back his Christmas presents and not visiting his dad, even though Mr. Weasley was out of immediate danger, does not put Percy in a good light. I totally do not respect Percy for allowing himself to be used by Scrimgeor just to get to Harry at Christmas. At least, if I remember correctly, Scrimgeor knew Percy's name... So, Percy is rising through the ranks at the Ministry as a yes-man. On the other hand, Fred and George are becoming highly successful businessmen, largely thanks to their defensive-charmed-objects contracts with the Ministry. The twins are not yes-men, and their success largely seems to me like a side effect of doing what they love. Their success is causing them to be more responsible, and I am sure that they were devastated by the fact that one of their products was used against the Order, but ultimately they are still the same as they always were, with the same love of family. However, I have felt (ever since GoF) that Percy is the one who is at risk of turning away from love, making the wrong choices, and being seduced by power. I fear that this aspiration for power makes him more susceptible to temptation by the Dark Arts than his brothers. JMO, Marianne S From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 22:09:03 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:09:03 -0000 Subject: SHIPs in Potterverse -- who's at the helm? (was: Harry/Luna) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136876 > phoenixgod2000: > Harry likes Luna. He thinks she is funny-weird, not creepy-weird > like every other student. She has a lighthearted sense of humor > that I think would do well to balance out Harry's edge. Ginny > doesn't do that. a_svirn: Yes, he might like Luna, but when you get right down to it in the Potterverse it is almost invariably what a witch wants that counts. Certainly the magical womenfolk seems more *predatory* than their men. Pansy has been chasing after Draco from the day one; Ginny quite literally threw herself at Harry; Lavender blatantly pursued Ron, Hermione retaliated by asking out McLaggen. She also considered Smith and didn't seem to worry how either boy might react to the invitation. (I wonder did she actually *ask* the poor guy out or just informed him that he was to meet her at eight p.m. in the Great Hall). Fleur in GoF went out of her way to engage Bill's interest. And of course let us not forget Tonks who quite worn Lupin down by her relentless pursuit until he finally capitulated in the hospital wing. Characteristically Arthur's fatherly advice to him had a distinct note of resignation about it: "But she wants you". Sounds almost like: resistance is useless, man, yield! Wonder, if he spoke from the experience? He sounded very much like he did. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Aug 7 22:09:13 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:09:13 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136877 > > colebiancardi said: > > >>I also think > > that DD asked Snape to put that book in Slughorn's reserves, for > > Harry. As we know, Harry didn't expect to take advanced potions in > > his 6th year, as Snape only wanted Outstanding students. snip > > Cathy again snip Unless you're saying Slug was in on the whole > thing and gave Harry Snape's book intentionally....bragging him up as > a potion-maker then only to pump up his ego and not because Slug > actually thought Harry was good at potions? Potioncat: I don't think DD or Snape or Slughorn knew that Harry had Snape's old book. I think if Slughorn knew about the "improved" text book, he would have made personal use of it. If DD had known about the Dark Magic in it, he wouldn't have wanted it freely available to students; and most likely would have been a bit peeved at Snape. And I think Snape was horrified to realise Harry had gotten the book. He seemed surprised and upset in the bathroom. It is still my belief the book went missing long ago. As to Dark Magic...I'm still disappointed that no one asked JKR what her definition of Dark Magic is. Right now we have Snape saying the one spell is Dark Magic and saying the Map is full of Dark Magic; and we have canon support that the Unforgivables are Dark Magic...but we still don't know what it is. I admit, it's very uncertain whether Snape was speaking the truth when he said the Marauder's Map had Dark Magic in it. From djklaugh at comcast.net Sun Aug 7 21:59:37 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:59:37 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Magic (new questions) In-Reply-To: <20050807071025.47496.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136878 MorganAnnAdams wrote: (Snip) > Morgan again: This is an interesting point. How can a wizard who is not allowed to do magic be made a professor at Hogwarts? And also, why is he not allowed to do magic? Does anyone remember what exactly he was expelled for? - was it for opening the chamber or just for having Aragog in the castle? Once it was obviously Riddle who opened the chamber, why wasn't he allowed to do magic? > > --Morgan Deb writes: Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts because the then Headmaster, Professor Dippett, believed - over DD's protests - what Tom Riddle told him... that Hagrid was the one who opened the Chamber of Secrets. When he was expelled it was the end of his 3rd year. His wand was broken in half when he was expelled though he tells Ollivander in SS that he kept the pieces. Harry suspects (as do I) that Hagrid has concealed the parts of the broken wand inside his pink umbrella. DD persuades Dippett to give Hagrid a second chance after he is expelled and makes him groundskeeper at Hogwarts. He apparently also is an assistant to the previous Care of Magical Creatures, Professor Kettleburn, who leaves at the end of COS to "enjoy more time with his remaining limbs". Hagrid is appointed Professor of COMC after that. My questions are: 1-Why, when Hargid is cleared of the charges of opening the Chamber of Secrets, is he not allowed to get a new wand? Even first years have fully functional wands even though they are not allowed to do magic away from Hogwarts. 2-Why does Hagrid's broken wand function as well as it does? We see him in SS powering the boat he uses to get Harry with it, making a fire, etc. And we see him using it in other books as well. But when Ron's wand is broken in COS it does not function at all well! In fact it is his broken wand that causes Lockhart to lose his memory because the Memory Charm Lockhart tries to use against Harry and Ron backfires. 3-Isn't there, in the WW, anything equivalent to a GED? Couldn't Hagrid be allowed to at least try for an OWL or two? He'd get one for sure in COMC and maybe one in Charms since DD gives him permission, on occasion, to use them in the course of his work. Deb From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 7 03:52:59 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:52:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR on Ginny, WAS Ginny is Mackenzie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136879 Vmonte wrote: >> > ...snip... > > > > Ginny is meant to be a match for Harry, a girl worthy of Harry. > > And many of us see her that way, including JKR. > > > > ...snip... > Leaky Cauldron HBP Interview Pat: I don't see this as 100% foolproof. She says she always knew they would come together and then part. She didn't say part for a time, which she could have. I posted previously on what I thought she would or wouldn't say between books 6 and 7 if indeed, book 6 is full of twists that will be revealed in book 7. And I'd like to address this part of her comments: Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005 "JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt ? and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned ? initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well." Pat: I had hoped for H/Hr, but knowing that they so far had not shown any romantic interest in each other, I knew it might not happen. However, I had confidence that Jo would sell me on whatever did happen. And a big part of being stunned after reading the book was that she didn't! All those things she said, "I hoped the reader would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry", etc., well, it didn't happen for me, not at all. I think Ginny's tough in an unpleasant way, and a bit scary herself, but that's not what I wanted for Harry. She's only funny by mocking people - I like Ron's dry wit much better than that. I didn't get "warm and compassionate". I saw a hard blazing look, and not being inclined to tell Harry to be careful. I don't see her being terrified by his image - she likes him so much because he saves the Wizarding world, and wouldn't be happy unless he's hunting Voldemort. Am I the only one who sees the book as being the exact opposite of what Jo says she tried to show? I see other stunned people, so I don't think so. Pat From lealess at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 22:21:10 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:21:10 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Dumbledore was not surprised that Snape told Draco that he had made an > Unbreakable Vow to aid him in his mission, but I believe he would be > flabbergasted to know that he had really done it. > --SNIP-- > We reader now know from book 5 > and 6 that Dumbledore can be completely and disastrously wrong. > lealess: Yes, Dumbledore seems to be wrong, I would say quite often. However, how do you think he would feel about retaining someone he knows to be a liar on staff? What kind of example would that set for the students (many of whom are reflexive liars, by the way)? What do you think he would feel about retaining a liar as a spy? If Dumbledore believes Snape could lie to Draco about something like an Unbreakable Vow, then (1) he must believe that Snape can lie to him, which would tend to make him a less trusting of his spy at all, or (2) he must be really stupid and believe that Snape could not also lie to him. There is a third, and better, option: Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow, or at least part of it, and that is why he was not surprised that Snape told Draco about it. Dumbledore says over and over again that he trusts Snape. Yes, he may be too trusting, but I do not believe that he is that consistently stupid. lealess From muellem at bc.edu Sun Aug 7 22:43:16 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:43:16 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136881 > Potioncat: > I don't think DD or Snape or Slughorn knew that Harry had Snape's old > book. I think if Slughorn knew about the "improved" text book, he > would have made personal use of it. If DD had known about the Dark > Magic in it, he wouldn't have wanted it freely available to students; > and most likely would have been a bit peeved at Snape. And I think > Snape was horrified to realise Harry had gotten the book. He seemed > surprised and upset in the bathroom. It is still my belief the book > went missing long ago. but why didn't he turn Harry over to DD to be expelled? Snape never had a problem before with that. And I don't buy the "Snape didn't want Dumbledore to know about the book" excuse that Hermione came up with. DD knew that Snape was a DE and into Dark Arts - why would this suprise him for something that Snape did when he was a teen? I still think Snape & DD knew(not Sluggie). JMHO > I admit, it's very uncertain whether Snape was speaking the truth > when he said the Marauder's Map had Dark Magic in it. I think Snape was just goading Lupin at that point - Snape knew who the Marauders were - and he wanted to make a point that the Marauders, 20 years later, still haven't pulled the wool over dear o' Sevvie's eyes. he knew that Lupin knew. I viewed it as a taunt. I agree on the wishing that Rowling would tell us what is Dark Magic & what isn't. I think the unforgivable curses can be called Dark Magic, as they are taught in the DADA class. Horcruxes - DM. Levicorpus - ??? Lupin didn't think it was, he said it was all the rage when he was a kid. Maybe it is the intent. I don't consider a love potion to be DM - just love-sick fools who can't get the partner they want. I would classify that as SM - sick magic. colebiancardi From leslie41 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 22:54:23 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:54:23 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spotsgal" wrote: > The workings of the Foe-Glass are never explained in detail, so > it's possible it only shows what you believe to be your enemies, > although it seems that it would be much more useful if the mirror > could detect that itself (the same way that a Sneakoscope is > valuable because it detects the untrustworthy people > for you). (snip) I find it highly unlikely that a foe glass would just show people you *think* are your enemies, because as you say what is the use of that? Where's the advantage? Who would want such an item and why would it be placed in such a position of importance? This seems to me to be some fairly incontrovertible evidence that Snape is on the side of the good guys. How else can you argue that he isn't without resorting to the unlikely "Well the foe glass may show who you *think* is your enemy." But I have another question: Didn't someone mention that the broken Foe glass is then put in storage with the Mirror of Erised? I can't remember. And how does it break? And who owns it when it does? Leslie41 From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 23:10:30 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:10:30 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good and so is Snape...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136883 Betsy Hp: Just as there's a difference between breaking someone's nose and gutting them? Remember, on the train Draco was completely in control and accomplishes exactly what he wanted to accomplish: and it wasn't Harry's death. In the bathroom Harry is confused (Slytherins have feelings?) and flailing (Draco fights back?) and he does something out of panic which nearly ends in Draco's death. There *should* be different reactions from each boy in each scene. vmonte: It would have been very stupid of Draco to kill Harry in the train don't you think? He was, afterall, the last Slytherin in that particular compartment. And once Harry's body was found, it would have been a matter of time before Draco would have been fingered. Getting himself into Azkaban at the begining of term would have made killing Dumbledore that much harder, don't you think? I have a question for you. Have you ever seen Draco do anything nice for anyone? Have you seen him show compassion or tolerance for anyone other than those connected to the DEs in some way? Because I have seen Harry feel compassion for Snape (penseive memory), Draco (in HBP), and even Tom Riddle (in HBP). And yes, killing is not an easy thing--even if your a hateful person like Draco. He may have had trouble killing Dumbledore, but I'm not so sure about anyone else. Draco made his choice to become a DE willingly, of his own free will. He made a pact with the Devil and the Devil is not going to let him off the hook so easy... Vivian "It's our choices that determine who we are, not our abilities." From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 23:34:50 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:34:50 -0000 Subject: Snape, You Think I am Your Father Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136884 pg 214 AE HBP Dumbledore explaining to Harry what people may have been told by Tom Riddle, Sr., about Merope: "We must do a certain amount of guessing here, although I do not think it is difficult to deduce what happened. You see, within a few months of their runaway marriage, Tom Riddle reappeared at the manor house in Little Hanglton without his wife. The rumor flew around the neighborhood that he was talking of being "hoodwinked" and 'taken in'. What he meant, I am sure, is that he had been under an enchantment that had now lifted...When they heard what he was saying, however, the villagers guessed that Merope had lied to Tom Riddle, pretending that she was going to have his baby, and that he had married her for this reason." Alrighty. JKR introduces premartial sex, unplanned pregnancy and the idea of 'hoodwinking' a guy to think he's having your baby into the series. Interesting, since that is NOT what Merope did. Hmmm. Wonder why all of that is necessary, perhaps a bit of foreshadowing. Eileen Prince was a contemporary of Tom Riddle, the timeframe fits. Since Hermione is convinced that the writing in the Advanced Potions book was female, I think that's a clue that it was Miss Prince who was figuring out potions--now whether she was helping Tom Riddle discover the spells and protections for Horcruxes, or he was helping her (for services rendered) probably doesn't matter. pg 592 AE OoTP "...Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his--a hook nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a dark-haired boy cried in a corner..." Any question that Snape would hate his hook-nosed father and wished that somebody else was? pg 637 HBP Hermione discussing with Harry the discovery of Eileen Prince: "I was going through the rest of the old Prophets and there was a tiny announcement about Eileen Prince marrying a man called Tobias Snape, and then later an announcement saying that she'd given birth to a ---" (and just how much later Hermione doesn't say) "Murderer" spat Harry. "Well...yes," said Hermione. "So...I was sort of right. Snape must have been proud of being half a Prince' you see? Tobias Snape was a Muggle from what it said in the Prophet." "Yeah, that fits," said Harry. "He'd play up the pure blood side...HE'S JUST LIKE VOLDEMORT. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father...ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark Arts, gave himself an impressive new name--Lord Voldemort---the Half Blood Prince--how could Dumbledore have missed-- (emphasis mine.) Missed what? That Snape believes there's a possibility Tom Riddle could be his father? That Tom Riddle got his mother pregnant, left her in the lurch and the talented leader Eileen Prince got a quickie marriage with the first muggle that came along? However, I am more inclined to think (because let's face it, even if its Snape and not Harry...the "I am your father" has already been done quite famously to the nth degree) that she DID have to marry Tobias and that he is Snape's real father. That doesn't mean Snape doesn't think it though, especially if Eileen talked about how handsome and smart "Tom" was and Tobias was a cruel old so and so. SO let's say for the sake of discussion that Snape believes he might be Voldemort's son. Perhaps even as a lonely teenager killing flies off the ceiling, he was consumed with his destiny and wondered if that included Tom Riddle. Then old Tom rises out of the pumpkin patch and becomes Lord Voldemort. Whoo hooo! I'd say the party was short lived, Snape's expectations of having a father figure got waylayed real quick in the presence of the most maniacal self centered wizard that ever lived. No unconditional love--not even for the son of an old girlfriend--"I, the Half-Blood Prince!". I think it would make a guy rethink his loyalties. >From way out in left field, Cindy From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 23:38:11 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:38:11 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth / Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136885 Message 136037: Del: "* I see a boy who imposes his will on his girl. * I see a boy who doesn't care to hurt his girl as long as it makes things easier for him. vmonte: This is what you call signs of abuse? When did Harry impose his will on Ginny? And hurt her? Do you mean when he broke up with her because he was worried about her life? Come on! Del: * I see a relationship that is deemed good because it makes the boy happy, but nothing is said about the girl. * I see a relationship where we don't know anything of what happens when they are together. vmonte: Really, you never heard Ginny say that she never gave up on Harry? What do you mean we know nothing about what happens when they are together? I recall them being happy. Del: * I remember that this boy had the habit of shouting loud and long to force his female best friend to shut up in the last book. vmonte: Huh? You've never had an argument with your friend? Or behaved out of character due to stress? Add having the weight of the wizarding world on your shoulders. Del: * I also remember that this boy didn't care one bit what his former girlfriend needed, and that he got angry when it was explained to him what her emotional needs were. I remember that this boy had a mental image of what he wanted his former girlfriend to be, and that he didn't like it when she didn't conform. vmonte: You mean Cho? Was Cho Harry's girlfriend? I thought they went on ONE date? Del: * And of course, I remember that this boy was raised without love, that he was emotionally abused or at least neglected as a kid, and that he doesn't have a parental figure to turn to for counsel anymore. vmonte: Yes, this part is true. But you have missed the point altogether I'm afraid. JKR is trying to show that people have a choice to do what is right over what is wrong. Harry has made his choice don't you think? Afterall isn't he Dumbledore's man! De: "Now, I sincerely doubt that JKR would make Harry abuse Ginny. But the fact remains that she gave many clues that he could be, and none that their relationship is in fact healthy." vmonte: Sorry, you are wrong here. Again the books are not about your life. Vivian From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 00:08:59 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 00:08:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR on Ginny, WAS Ginny is Mackenzie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136886 Pat wrote: Am I the only one who sees the book as being the exact opposite of what Jo says she tried to show? I see other stunned people, so I don't think so. Marianne S: No, you are not the only one. However, I do believe that many people (myself included) did see the relationship exactly how JKR wanted us to. We were looking forward to it happening, and were very satisfied when it did. Many of us, including every single fan I am friends with in real life, expect that Ginny is strong enough to know that Harry's has to do what he must, and she probably wouldn't like him as much if his whole world was in fact centered on her. (To me, this is a sign of the strong character JKR meant to create... someone who doesn't need, or even like, to be the center of someone's universe.) I believe that Ginny handled the split very well.. didn't make a scene at the funeral, stayed true to herself and let Harry know that she never gave up on him, which may just give him the strength he needs to go on. I also don't think that Ginny is the type to give up on Harry, and I am willing to bet that book six only showed early days of their relationship... something that I believe JKR will let truly grow in book 7. The main thing I am concerned about, as a reader, is how Harry is going to make choices and use the power of love to defeat Voldemort. The Harry/Ginny subplot, to me, is just that.. a SUBplot, but one that gives great support to the overall themes of the power of love and the choices we have to make. Harry chose to deny himself his greatest comfort, the thing that made him happier than he had been in years (this is what it says in the text, and I don't care how many people say, "don't TELL ME... SHOW ME...," if it's JKR's prose then it truly is canon as she only writes truthfully what Harry feels. Nevertheless, I believe we will see a lot more from Ginny and her relationship with Harry in the next book, and as noble as he was to let her go... that girl is going to continue to fight by Harry's side, whether she physically can be there or not. The love that Harry feels for Ginny, which he worries puts her in danger (because I believe he feels that his love for Sirius is what cause his godfather's death)... he needs to realize can also be part of his strength. I am hoping that Bill and Fleur's wedding will allow Harry to put some perspective on this. I frankly feel sorry for people who don't believe JKR did a good job with this, relationship.especially if it makes them not enjoy the books. It concerns me greatly that some adults might just be LOOKING for things in the book to not like, and don't recognize or support or even respectthe author's point of view/ This concerns me not because I don't think they're entitled to their opinions, but because criticism of the author and HER characters is at best something that will never make a difference in her point of view, and it could just perpetuate more misery. I feel like saying, "What's done is done, what's written is written, and if you can't enjoy or accept it, please stop trying to spoil it for the rest of us." My diverse group of adult reading buddies include a magazine editor, a book editor, a college professor, and a couple of reading specialists and a couple of office managers. Our ages cover a 30 year span and our educations vary from Bachelor's degrees to PhD. Though we don't all agree on who Snape's allegiance is really to, we all agreed that it was "about time" for Harry and Ginny and that it was handled very well. (Ron/Hermione may not have come out the way we hoped, but we certainly don't criticize the author for that.) We also were not concerned by the split because Harry and Ginny handled it kindly without making a scene AND in a way that, in our opinions, made it clear that they are NOT over. JKR's WORDS CONFIRM OUR BELIEFS... ... Ginny had her own journey as a character, and we, like JKR, believe she is the ideal girl for Harry. They came together and split, yes, but there is nothing in canon or even in JKRs interview to say that they won't reconnect. Perhaps JKR is even applying the old adage, "If you Love someone SET THEM FREE, if they come back -- they're yours; if not -- THEY NEVER were." Based on JKR's own words in the book, right up to the difficult time Harry had letting Ginny go, even though he felt he must, (like someone else said, that "miserable gesture" spoke volumes") we believe that Ginny IS THE GIRL FOR HARRY! Moreover, we agree that HBP left more twists and turns and questions to be answered in the next book than any other book has thus far. I wish people would stop harping on how bad the H/G relationship is and just accept it... 'cause it's what is written... and focus on the REAL unknowns... where/what are the horcruxes, how is Harry going to defeat Voldemort, etc. But, as long as people can't accept JKR's point of view and the characters and feelings she created, I will continue to stand up for Harry and Ginny. Marianne S (and the S is NOT for Shipper, something I thought I'd never have to be!) From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Aug 8 00:51:02 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 00:51:02 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136887 colebiancardi: > I agree on the wishing that Rowling would tell us what is Dark Magic & > what isn't. I think the unforgivable curses can be called Dark Magic, > as they are taught in the DADA class. Horcruxes - DM. Levicorpus - > ??? Lupin didn't think it was, he said it was all the rage when he was > a kid. Maybe it is the intent. I don't consider a love potion to be > DM - just love-sick fools who can't get the partner they want. I > would classify that as SM - sick magic. houyhnhnm: Maybe it is any spell that results in "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or death". Personally, I would consider occlumency to be a dark art, a sort of horcruxmancy of the self. Look what it's done to Snape. It doesn't seem to be regarded that way in the respectable wizarding world, however. We know that Dumbledore is an occlumens, also Snape and Bellatrix. Are there any others? Are aurors taught occlumency? Would it be part of the curriculum for advanced DADA students? From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 8 00:58:45 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 00:58:45 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136888 > houyhnhnm: > > Maybe it is any spell that results in "organ failure, impairment of > bodily function, or death". I like that! But aurors sometimes *killed* their prey, did they not? I know that some of them used the unforgivables to take down some DE's(per Crouch), does that make them evil? Or just using whatever tools they can to achieve their goals? > > Personally, I would consider occlumency to be a dark art, a sort of > horcruxmancy of the self. Look what it's done to Snape. > > It doesn't seem to be regarded that way in the respectable wizarding > world, however. We know that Dumbledore is an occlumens, also Snape > and Bellatrix. Are there any others? Are aurors taught occlumency? > Would it be part of the curriculum for advanced DADA students? I wouldn't think that occlumens or legitimens would be Dark Arts - it could be used for Dark Purposes, but it can also be used for good. I think that occlumency is a tough thing to learn and you need to divorce yourself from your emotions, as Snape tried so hard to hammer that into Harry's skull during their lessons. But Harry had to much hatred for Snape to achieve that. I don't think they teach occlumency or legilimency at Hogwarts - seems that Harry was a *special* case - and it is an obscure branch of magic. colebiancardi From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Aug 8 01:02:50 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 01:02:50 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136889 Christina: > > The workings of the Foe-Glass are never explained in detail, so > > it's possible it only shows what you believe to be your enemies, > > although it seems that it would be much more useful if the mirror > > could detect that itself (the same way that a Sneakoscope is > > valuable because it detects the untrustworthy people > > for you). Leslie41: > I find it highly unlikely that a foe glass would just show people > you *think* are your enemies, because as you say what is the use of > that? Where's the advantage? Who would want such an item and why > would it be placed in such a position of importance? Christina: Exactly. JKR has shown us that magical objects tend to function in a way that gives them the most value (remember when we thought an objective pensieve was just too good to truly be the way it operated?). Leslie41: > This seems to > me to be some fairly incontrovertible evidence that Snape is on the > side of the good guys. Christina: I think so too. While you could say that Snape had decided to stay under DD's protection when he felt the Dark Mark burn and only later decided to flop sides, I think the fact that he lied about this to Bella is the important piece of evidence. This must have been the lie he used when appealing to Voldemort as well- showing that he *can*, indeed, lie to the Dark Lord and not be detected, regardless of LV's Legilimency skills. Leslie41: > Didn't someone mention that the broken Foe glass is then put in > storage with the Mirror of Erised? I can't remember. And how does > it break? And who owns it when it does? Christina: Here is the last mention I can find of the Foe-Glass (and the only one outside of GoF): (OotP, US, page 390, describing the Room of Requirement when the DA uses it) "A set of shelves at the far end of the room carried a range of instruments such as Sneakoscopes, Secrecy Sensors, and a large, cracked Foe-Glass that Harry was sure had hung, the previous year, in the fake Moody's office." (end quote) So it *is* cracked, but I can't find anything explaining how it happened (there's no mention of it being cracked when Fake!Moody had it). It's interesting that this *particular* Foe-Glass appears in the RoR. It kind of makes you wonder how the room "gets" the objects it puts in it. If it really is Fake!Moody's Foe-Glass, how did the room physically get it there? Surely it must have been put in storage or something. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 01:14:01 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 01:14:01 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Sn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136890 Valky wrote: I'm > fairly well convinced that canon fully supports the hypothesis >>that DD > and Snape were arguing about Snape watching over Draco. It also > explains why DD's trail of conversation leads into the >resposibility > of watching over the Slytherin House. It could be that he was >>implying > there that Snape could more easily guise his shadowing of Draco in > that responsibility, but I think, more likely, that DD was >reminding > Snape it was too late in the year for him to be taken off duty as Head > of House and his responsibility to investigate would remain, in >any case. Saraquel: spanner in the works! Although I think all the posters in this thread have made some excellent arguments, I'm afraid I'm not convinced of the premise that Snape and DD were arguing about Draco at all. I'll come back to why I don't agree with the Draco explanation in a minute. First I'll speculate on what I think was happening here. When I first read this passage, it struck me that Hagrid was desperately trying to convince Harry of a specific interpretation of the Snape/DD argument. I don't think Hagrid was lying deliberately, I think he himself did not understand what the row had been about, and had explained it to himself in terms of the recent necklace attack. As this interpretation did not put Snape into any dubious light, he is pressing it on Harry in order to try and stop him from flying off into Snape's-up-to-no-good scenarios. Also, we know from past history, that relying on anyone's interpretation of events is just playing with fire, as usually JKR uses someone's 'Well it's obviously about this ...." to lead you off in the wrong direction. Sorry can't think of cannon for that off hand, but there are loads of examples. So what was the argument about? Well, the suspicious bit for me is HBP p380 UK ed "An' then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his house, in Slytherin." Now I think that could well be Hagrid's interpretation. That in fact, all he heard was DD saying was something like "And you can start by looking in your own house." It was Hagrid who added the "in Slytherin" ? the fact that it is separated by a comma in the text, implies that it was not what he originally heard. I don't know about you, but when I report speech, I hear it again in my head and try and use the words that I've heard. Which gets us all, finally, to the promised spanner. I think DD was asking Snape to start his investigations with Wormtail, who is currently residing in Snape's own house. So how can we make sense of the row: well, maybe Snape was saying ? look, I don't want to be a spy anymore. And DD was saying, you promised to do it in the Hospital wing after the Triwizard Tournament and you can't go back now, and anyway I want you to investigate Nagini for me, and Wormtail is the one who was around Voldemort the most during that time. I want information on the murder of Frank Bryce. So if we look at the implications of that, where does it get us. ESG!Snape: Snape - I'm now in it up to my neck, my life is on the line, I might have to kill you or die mysef, Draco isn't playing, actually I want out. I'll help you with whatever you want, but I really don't want to go back into enemy territory. DD - well I'm sorry Snape, but you really sealed your fate all those years ago when you joined the DEs and then came to me about Lily and James, you are living out the result of your choices and you have to take responsibility for that. Do you think it's a bed of roses for me? Anyway, this is bigger than both of us, if Harry doesn't succeed, it's not just our lives that will be on the line. Or: the old argument of "DD, you take too much for granted in asking me to kill you. I don't want to do it any more." "Look Snape, it's either me or you, and ." Add your own favourite reason here!! The fact that Snape is actually having a big row with DD does indicate to me that he might well be on the side of good. If Snape were ESE! It would be a big risk to have an all out row, after he had so well crafted his trust with DD. It would take a *supremely* confident person to enter into conflict with someone they are deceiving. Disagreements, yes, an absolute necessity in the deception, but all out rows and `disobedience' ? hmmmm. I don't think over-confidence is one of Snape's faults. He's very, very measured. However, I'm still on the fence about Snape's allegiances. I still need more time to rethink things in light of HBP, although an evil Snape on the side of good is probably where I'll come down in the end. Though how I'll explain dead DD with that one remains to be seen. ESE!Snape: Much the same as above, but, different motives: Don't have to report Voldemort's goings on any more. Don't have to inform you about Nagini, whom I suspect is very important to Voldemort, and whom I suspect may even be a Horcrux. (See the famous "all you DEs know what I did to make myself immortal" speech in the graveyard scene of GoF) I admit, reasons for ESE!Snape in this scenario are weak. DD ? what is his top priority at the moment ? Horcruxes and particularly finding out more about Nagini. Who is the only person who can help him in that direction ? Snape. Now, why don't I think the conversation is about Draco, and Snape not wanting to watch over him any more. Snape knows that having made the UV, he has absolutely no choice about Draco. The best he and possibly DD (if DD is in the loop) can do is delay the moment when Draco has an opportunity to kill DD. Draco may be being unco- operative, but IMO that really isn't a big enough problem for Snape to effectively commit suicide by giving up on one of the terms of the UV. If he really was trying to get out of watching over Draco, he wouldn't be having a row with DD ? he'd be wallowing in self- pity. IMO, what Snape wants out of, is having to put himself into situations like the UV in order to spy for DD. (You see here I am arguing an evil Snape on the side of good :-) ) Perhaps the `You take too much for granted" remark is about just how far into life- threatening danger Snape has to take himself in order to continue to convince Voldemort that he isn't a double-agent, and that it can only get more and more difficult and dangerous. OK folks, would love to hear your responses as always. Saraquel From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 01:41:17 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 21:41:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: JKR on Ginny, WAS Ginny is Mackenzie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136891 Marianne S: > Moreover, we agree that HBP left more twists and turns and questions to be > answered in the next book than any other book has thus far. > > I wish people would stop harping on how bad the H/G relationship is and > just accept it... 'cause it's what is written... and focus on the REAL unknowns... > where/what are the horcruxes, how is Harry going to defeat Voldemort, etc. > But, as long as people can't accept JKR's point of view and the characters and > feelings she created, I will continue to stand up for Harry and Ginny. First off, I do agree that HBP left a whole lot of open questions to be explored. It's the beginning of the end, so it should end of a fitting note. There are lots of questions that should be explored. I agree completely with those comments, but I, and many other people on this list, will probably disagree with you on the H/G relationship and how it was *written.* Why do we have to accept it just because JKR said that it was good? I appreciate that you think that the H/G ship was written nicely. I respect that, but please respect me when I say that if I turned in what JKR wrote, creative writing professors would jump over themselves telling me just how I could improve. Trust me since I've done similar. I'm not saying that JKR is a bad writer nor am I saying that I'm as good as she. I'm merely saying that she made a rookie mistake in writing H/G. You've stated your qualifications, so let me cite mine so you can understand that we're coming from similar places. I've been a writer all my life; I'm a published poet and aspiring novelist. I work for and am friends with *published* authors of novels, academic articles, poems, etc. They're all accomplished and more than half have their PhD in literature. Many of these people are also people with whom I talk to about Harry Potter. ALL of us feel that HBP was a good book, but ALL of us agree that it isn't perfect. My main point of contention for the book not being perfect just happens to be *the* topic on this list (other than Snape). To be sure, discussing how I think that JKR's writing is poor, or at least is in regards to the relationships in HBP, does nothing to affect JKR's books, but I don't think there's many of us here who's going to say that we talk about the books because we think JKR will do something about it. People talk about things for the sake of furthering their understanding of it and to share their viewpoints with other people who *don't* share those views. But that's neither here nor there. After seeing Del being attacked, I think I'll just back off on my H/G comments and leave them for conversations with more tangible folks (i.e. the people I see in my real life). Let me get back to that initial comment about HBP and the questions... I don't know that I agree that HBP left more questions opened than the other books. I really don't. I think that the set-up for HBP was so finalizing that I just didn't have too many questions, or at least, I have more *major* questions than with the other books but fewer questions overall. I'm sure whether it was JKR doing it consciously or it was that I knew that HBP was the sixth and second to last book, but I felt like the book had a very final edge to it. Very classical hero quest set-up, as far as I was concerned, and so classical that it made me a touch disappointed. I wanted Harry Potter to be more of a coming of age story, and thus far, it has been successful in that, but I feel like the coming of age story was less important in HBP and the hero quest was more important. I guess that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's so...classical, which isn't much of a complaint so much as a "I hope JKR manages to pull out a few good tricks for the oldest story ever told" kind of wish. :-) ~Ali From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 02:00:39 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:00:39 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth / Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136892 > Del wrote: > Not true. I HAVE given the short version of my reasons why I think > Harry, as described in the books, *could* turn to abusing Ginny. Not > necessarily in a sexual way, by the way, physical/sexual abuse is > not the only type of abuse there is. > > Message 136037: > > "* I see a boy who imposes his will on his girl. > > * I see a boy who doesn't care to hurt his girl as long as it makes > things easier for him. Valky replies: HI Del! Taking a long line as always ;D Excuse me for bumping my way in late in the game, but I thought I might finally take a punt at giving my reasons for not being too concerned that JKR didn't give us a good stock of details on the H/G relationship. As always I expect from you, your premises are clear, concise nd unmistakable canon. And as ever you might expect from me, ;D heres a few slight nuances that sway the directness of those canon premises that you've listed. A boy who imposes his will on his girl, and hurts her if it makes things easier. Ok this one is mostly about the break-up at the end of HBP, yes? I can't think of another incedent that fits. This one is actually fairly easy to contradict with some other canon. To start with, it doesn't make it easier to break up with Ginny, and neither is it really Harry's will to do it. Briefly after he does it he has to turn away from her lest he lose his resoluteness to carry it through. Harry feels duty bound to protect her, (the stupid noble reason) and he is most *definitely* hurting himself helpless against the will of some greaer thing than himself, Ginny actually appears less hurt about it than Harry mostly, I think, because in her ability to understand Harry, (which is given to us in leading canon, I know it's not Knowledge exactly but I think its fair to say there is an understanding between them) and in Ginny's understanding she knows that this is an expression of Harry's will to be with her, rather than without. Now that Harry doesn't care that Ginny is hurt is not exactly canon in my opinion, because I don't think that Ginny was hurt so much as all that, because Harry did care very much about what he was about to do to her before he broke up with her, and because the secenes afterwards were scenes of a boy denying *his* pain not his girlfriends. Harry's a young man and not all that emotionally mature and Ginny, despite what her brothers believe, is not all that experienced with feelings. it would take time for both of them to finally process the sinking feeling of their break up so Harry is yet to see Hurt!Ginny, because she hasn't processed it or expressed it yet, and hence he's yet to have a Hurt!Ginny to be concerned about. > Del: > * I see a relationship that is deemed good because it makes the boy > happy, but nothing is said about the girl. > > * I see a relationship where we don't know anything of what happens > when they are together. Valky: I think Vivian (?was it?) said this best when she noted that Ginny did talk about never giving up on Harry, this is a sign that she was happy to finally have Harry's attention, so initially happy she certainly is. In the duration of the romance, well I agree, very little was said. So a continued happy Ginny is maybe a bit up to our imaginations. However, wasn't Harry permananently distracted anyhow, spying on Draco trying to corner Slughorn, struggling with NEWT homework, working through the lessons he had been taught by Dumbledore. Given all that I'd say that Ginny, probably *wasn't* all that Happy romantically, but not because differences arose between them or because Harry had trouble lettng her be her own person, but because they didn't really have all that much of a romance, because he was almost always not really there. All of this seems to indicate to me that Ginny was probably just waiting around quietly beside him as she'd always done, just waiting for him to be free of his "saviour of the WW" burdens and maybe realising all the while, that he might never be. In the end, Ginny had a strange sort of expression on her face, as though she understood. Maybe she understood because all she had so far gotten out of the relationship was that Harry *would be* her boyfriend if he wasn't so darn busy being all noble and duty bound, and she really figured that when all was said and done she'd lost nothing in the process, because nothing more had actually happened. It's true we don't know what happens when they're together, but I think we have a mass of canon to sift through and gather a fairly accurate picture of what it looked like. They didn't do much but be beside each other, I'd say, each having a little comfort in knowing that their hearts were with each other, even if their minds and selves were not. > Del: > * I remember that this boy had the habit of shouting loud and long > to force his female best friend to shut up in the last book. Valky: Yeah, well this wasn't really a habit per se, you've even said that yourself. The CapsLock period was mostly circumstantial, and Harry's feelings of ruthlessness in that chapter in his life, were indeed out of character for him. That said, I think that the thought of shaking Hermione was Harry's and not Voldie's and I think it makes an incredibly good point about the nature of abusive behaviour. Feelings get out of hand within us as we grow and develop into healthy minds, the hardships of life will push us to the brink of our emotions and we might scream and rant, it's true. Harry has come from the Dursleys with mental images of physical and emotional abuse, these are chemical imprints in the mind of the boy now, if they surface in a moment of emotional agony for him, that is not a sign that he *will* act on it. It is simply the minds attempt to reckon with the trial as it has recorded it done. Harry never shakes Hermione. That's the point. That mental imagery of how his parental figures dealt with their emotional trials were bound to come clawing to the front of his mind someday. The real question is will he follow them, will he deny his childhood innocence and become his attacker. He does not, so he's won that battle in the long war. It's not his fault that the imagery was present in his mind, he didn't bring that imagery into his world. It would be his fault if he failed to consult his conscience before acting upon those feelings and images, though. But he didn't. So Abuser!Harry, he is definitely on the road to *not* becoming. IMO, that's canon. > Del: > * I also remember that this boy didn't care one bit what his former > girlfriend needed, and that he got angry when it was explained to > him what her emotional needs were. I remember that this boy had a > mental image of what he wanted his former girlfriend to be, and that > he didn't like it when she didn't conform. Valky: Yes he definitely didn't understand Cho at all. But not caring I think is a bit harsh to say. He did care for the most part while he was still keen to get to know her. Her behaviour confused him at first, she cried a lot and seemed to need very much to dwell long and painfully on Cedric's death. I don't think harry didn't care that this is what Cho needed. To me, it was more precisely that he could never understand *why* she needed it. This was not a superficial lack f understanding either, it was deep for Harry, because he had looked into Cedrics vacant eyes and felt all the helplessness and agony of losing Cedric first hand too. And for him, having to dwell painfully on it alone for several weeks already had all but destroyed him, he knew he wasn't himself, he knew he was on a very uneven keel and he felt that what Cho was *hellbent* on doing was *exactly what had made him that way*. So far ore than superficially not understanding why Cho needed this emotional drama, he *knew* in his own thoughts that *noone* needed to be sent off the rails by guilt and post trumatic stress. Cho seemed to think the exact opposite, and naturally Harry didn't understand. The problam was not that he didn't care about what she was doing to herself, it was that he cared far too deeply about that particular issue. As for his mental image of what she should be, I think it was more a mental image of them being together, wasn't it? An image of laughing together and being generally carefree and frivolous. Yes he was dissappointed when that never came to be, but did he try to force Cho to conform by using domination tactics or cruelty of any kind? No. In a way he had rights to be a certain part of angry about it all, he really wasn't asking for much. Just a little time laughing, and feeling good. When instead he wound up being spiralled into misery, depression and self loathing, it hurt. Harry acted nobly to try and make a clean break from it, it's hardly fair to have expected him to nurse her back to sanity as well or unnecessarily humble his own feelings while they were still so raw. > Del: > * And of course, I remember that this boy was raised without love, > that he was emotionally abused or at least neglected as a kid, and > that he doesn't have a parental figure to turn to for counsel > anymore. You're right, and Harry must now turn to himself. But I think he's used to doing that really. And you might agree that some of the canon I have put forward suggests he's actually not doing a half bad job of it. Valky From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 02:19:43 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:19:43 -0000 Subject: (SHIP) Re: Fleur+Bill In-Reply-To: <42F674FD.9070709@gmx.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136893 > I, Ginger wrote previously: > > > I have to wonder how she would have felt had he apparated to the > > Hog's Head for karoke night, had a few too many, decided to catch the > > Knight Bus home rather than risk splinching, and was standing with > > his wand-arm out, when he was attacked by a werewolf. Or worse, > > taking a leak in the street and had to be saved by someone else. Peter responded: > I reckon she admires Bill because of his character. Would the Billy she > fell in love with do such a thing? If yes, she would live with it. If > not, we shouldn't think about that possibility to much. Me, Ginger, again: Ah, this is my fault, but my intention was to wonder what Fleur would have thought had Bill been attacked whilst doing something mundane rather than in battle. She was proud of his scars because they showed that he was a hero. In my example, I used going out for karoke at the Hog's Head because it is the sort of thing that I would consider a daily activity. I had failed to take into consideration that others may not see it that way. My fault. So let's try again. Suppose Bill had gone to F&G's shop after work, sat around a while talking to them, and, after closing time, one of the twins asked if he had seen the new sign on the front window. Having come in the back way, Bill had missed it, so he goes onto the now-deserted Diagon Alley to view it. Stooping to tie his bootlace, he is distracted and doesn't notice the werewolf bounding from around the corner of the building. F&G do notice and come to his aid, but not before he is mauled. Would Fleur still see his scars as the badge of honour of a hero? Or would she feel differently since he got the scars in a non-battle situation? Would she still stay with him were he disfigured, but not a hero? That was my question. Sorry for the interpretational problem. My working-class background is showing. Ginger, who would like to add that although she does consider heavy drinking to be mundane, she does not condone driving afterwards. PSA for the day. ;O) From quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 8 00:29:07 2005 From: quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca (quick_silver71) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 00:29:07 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136894 Colebiancardi wrote: > but why didn't he turn Harry over to DD to be expelled? Snape never > had a problem before with that. And I don't buy the "Snape didn't > want Dumbledore to know about the book" excuse that Hermione came up > with. DD knew that Snape was a DE and into Dark Arts - why would this > suprise him for something that Snape did when he was a teen? I still > think Snape & DD knew(not Sluggie). JMHO > Quick Silver: Probably because if Harry was expelled then Draco would have be too. Snape and Dumbledore spent a year trying to save Draco and if he got expelled for starting a duel and attempting to use an Unforgivable Curse they wouldn't be there for him, would they? Besides there is probably a lot of procedure to expell a student...which could uncover a lot about Snape (since it is his book) and Draco (who is actually at fault for the duel). From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 7 23:39:35 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 23:39:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion - Was H/G indicators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136895 > Joj: > Well, I don't know if I can subscribe to this theory, but it would > explain Hermione's choice of the word unusual as describing the > perfume. She would have to have smelled something different in HBP > though, when she smelled the love potion, or she would have realized > it was the same thing. Pat: Yes, I believe it was a different love potion. Only Amortentia smells like your favorite things, so it would have to be a less powerful love potion that has a flowery scent. Also, Hermione and Ginny were looking at the various love potions in the twins shop, but they didn't actually see any in perfume bottles, they only read on the bottle that it could be owl ordered disguised as perfumes or cough potions, pages 306-307 US version. That makes it possible for Hermione, Ginny, and Ron not to recognize it was love potion that they were passing. From ongj87 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 02:07:33 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 02:07:33 -0000 Subject: In the Pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136896 I and many other people have proposed that Dumbledore left something in his pensieve behind for Harry to find. I think I might know what one of the memories he left behind was. If you recall in the Sorcerer's(Philosipher's) Stone, Harry asked Dumbledore what he sees when he looks into the Mirror of Erised. Dumbledore replied that he sees himself with a new pair of socks (or something to the effect, correct me if I'm wrong) but Harry suspects he wasn't quite telling the truth. Although it might not be detrimental to Harry or help Harry in any direct way, I think that Harry will stumble across a memory where we get to see what Dumbledore's deepest desire is. Ongj87. From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 8 02:56:42 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 22:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In the Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050808025642.50419.qmail@web53306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136897 ongj87 wrote: I and many other people have proposed that Dumbledore left something in his pensieve behind for Harry to find. I think I might know what one of the memories he left behind was. If you recall in the Sorcerer's(Philosipher's) Stone, Harry asked Dumbledore what he sees when he looks into the Mirror of Erised. Dumbledore replied that he sees himself with a new pair of socks (or something to the effect, correct me if I'm wrong) but Harry suspects he wasn't quite telling the truth. Although it might not be detrimental to Harry or help Harry in any direct way, I think that Harry will stumble across a memory where we get to see what Dumbledore's deepest desire is. Ongj87. Luckdragon: I'm hoping he left some memories of his interactions with Snape. 1) What Snape told him that made DD believe he was "good". 2) If DD arranged for Snape to kill him in HBP. 3) What DD and Snape argued about in HBP. If there is any hope of Snape still being "good" and Harry finding out, these memories may be of help. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 03:18:46 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 03:18:46 -0000 Subject: Finding the Cave and let's start on the potion! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136898 Valky wrote: > The crucial question is: Just how long has Mung been selling goods to > Aberforth *really*? > What if some time ago, even as long as since OOtP, Mung didn't >*show* > Aberforth or DD this gold locket he'd found at Grimmauld place, but > instead in all his bragging he had boasted of the wares that he >could > get his hands on *including* a Gold Locket with the Slytherin >Emblem > on it. This may be why Aberforth has been buying goods from Mung, >and > getting friendly with him. Because he *wants* that locket, but so >far > for all the boasting Mung has done he still hasn't come up with the > goods. At this point the Dumbledore Brothers don't know exactly >where > Mung has seen this object. Albus probably not even knowing that >it's > at Grimmauld Place because Mung steals from everywhere and is > constantly acquiring fresh stock for his seedy sales business from > anywhere he can get it. So The DD Brothers sit back and wait for Mung > to bring the locket to Aberforth, but he never does. Saraquel: It's a possible scenario and works as an explanation why Aberforth is meeting Mung in the first place. But, sorry Valky, it just doesn't quite grab me, but that doesn't mean it's not right - I sat at home and thought, 'no, I don't think so', when some people on the list started talking about hiding part of you soul in a box, just before HBP came out :-) I suppose part of my problem is about having to construct elaborate reasons for Aberforth to have the locket at all, when Mung having it would work just as well for Harry acquiring it, as long as Aberforth is ESG! Only if he was ESE! would it make a difference. I'm quite possibly contradicting something I said earlier here. The fact is that I'm really feeling very lost about the whole locket/cave scenario still. Valky: However, *just quickly explaining to > Harry* what that Locket fiasco was all about is not a real good > option. The reason is because sponfeeding Harry the answers won't > prepare him for the hardest task that he ulitimately *must* face > alone. So it's either give Harry the opportunity to figure them out > while DD's alive, or leave it to Harry after DD's death. I know that's > thin, but the notion that Harry really does need to work through the > clue himself to prepare him for facing Voldemort is a strong canon > point so it may hold out over the discrepancy of those few minutes > when DD might have been able to tell Harry everything all over again. Saraquel: Yes Valky, but I think it's just too thin. I've always felt that if DD knew or suspected in any way that he was about to die, and didn't at least tell Harry more about how Love Saves the Day, or how he managed to destroy the Horcrux in the Ring, then DD would be culpable of (or should that be - for?) both cruelty and stupidity. And I'm afraid I do think DD has held information too close to his chest and unless he's left Harry some help in another form (written or through his penseive) I shall not forgive him!! Yes I do think that DD has been training Harry throughout this book in the skills he thinks Harry needs to develop - especially how to get information out of people. I also think DD agreed that Harry could come with him to the cave as part of training him for the future, which DD knew, might or might not contain a DD. And that DD would have taken Harry along whatever the circumstances surronding the locket - i.e. he suspected it was a fake Horcrux or h thought it s=was a real one. But I really can't forgive DD for withholding such vital information from Harry when he did have an opportunity to tell him at least something before he died. > Valky: I believe > that DD at least hoped the Fake Locket would lead Harry to hypothesise > that it migt have come from Grimmauld place somehow. Perhaps hoping > that it would have the Black Family Cest or some mark of ownership > that would lead Harry to search his house for further clues. And > moreover and most importantly he hoped that this mark of the Black > family that he hoped would be somewhere hidden on or within the > locket, would prompt Harry to search his memory for the biggest clue > of all... Aberforth. > Saraquel: That does fit nicely with your hypothesis that it was a training exercise in treasure hunting. I think I'm optioned out on this thread now. Maybe we'll be able to come back to it from a completely different angle later. Or maybe the answer has already been stated, but I haven't recognised it. Saraquel who has posted some thoughts on the potion if you're interested - message 136802 From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 04:01:47 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 04:01:47 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR on Ginny, WAS Ginny is Mackenzie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136899 Ali wrote: I have more *major* questions than with the other books but fewer questions overall. I'm sure whether it was JKR doing it consciously or it was that I knew that HBP was the sixth and second to last book, but I felt like the book had a very final edge to it. Very classical hero quest set-up, as far as I was concerned, and so classical that it made me a touch disappointed. I wanted Harry Potter to be more of a coming of age story, and thus far, it has been successful in that, but I feel like the coming of age story was less important in HBP and the hero quest was more important. Marianne S. I think this is where we DO agree, mostly. I felt this book had a "very classical hero quest set-up" as you said. I believe this is exactly why Harry/Ginny wasn't written about in as much detail as if this had been a solely coming of age story. I actually do agree with others that I would have LIKED to see more of their story, but ultimately I'm happy with what I saw to be the Beginning of a relationship (and a nice contrast to the other teen "romances" in the same book). Yes, if what JKR wrote was the last we were to ever see of the girl that Harry felt made him happier than he had ever been... that would leave me more than a little disappointed. Perhaps a point that I didn't make clear is that we were satisfied by what we saw of Harry and Ginny because we had enough (canon) evidence to know they were happy (and I always took that "blazing look" to be one of intense understanding... perhaps even akin to mutual legilimency... conveying to each other through a look that they have mutual feelings and understandings). Anyway, I knew before reading and throughout HBP (as we all did) that there is one more book to go...and I believe that will give Harry the chance to fulfill his Hero-Quest and Come of Age. So, if JKR does not flesh out Harry and Ginny's relationship (or Ron and Hermione's for that matter) in the next and final Harry Potterbook, I will join the list of Critics. As I see things now, though, I am happy for the beginning (of the Ship and of the Mission) and am axious for more. I find it a lot more gratifying to see it this way than to carp about what wasn't written or what negative things could be read into it. Marianne S. (hoping that this counts as a new day since it's 12:01am) From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Aug 8 06:48:36 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 06:48:36 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?% In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136900 > > vmonte wrote: > "Percy is a jerk! And doesn't he choose, out of his own free will, to be a jerk? His father is dying in the hospital during OOTP (at least > there was a good possiblity that that might happen) and Percy refuses to see him because of a stupid fight?" > > Del replies: > Arthur was attacked during the night, and by 5am he was already out of > danger. So unless you can prove that Percy was contacted during the > night and refused to come, your accusation has no basis. By the time > Percy most probably learned of the situation (when he went to work), > Arthur was completely out of danger. Susan comments: First, you have no evidence from canon to support that "by the time Percy most probably learned of the situation, Arthur was completely out of danger." >From Order of the Phoenix. Scholastic edition. Hardback. First U.S. edition. P. 502. "Mum's crying again," said Fred heavily. "Percy sent back his Christmas jumper." "Without a note" added George. "Hasn't asked how Dad is or visited him or anything " Even if you are right, you don't ask how your father is after ther has been a near fatal attack, or visit or send a card? It's okay if he's out of danger. No, it is consonant with a Percy who storms off because his father tells him the truth -- he's been promoted for political reasons, not for his abilities. > And may I remind you that during the "stupid fight", Arthur totally > and completely crushed Percy's pride by arguing *without any proof* > that the only reason Percy had been promoted was so Fudge could spy on Arthur? Personally I don't see why Percy should make ANY efforts to reconcile with such an *unsupportive* family. > Susan says: Arthur, Charlie, Bill, Molly and Ginny have not been "unsupportive" of him. He's had conflict with Fred/George and to a lesser extent Ron. Because his father points out the truth (and Percy learns later that it IS the truth), Percy storms off, after saying incredibly vicious things to his father. Percy continues to be a lickspittle, shutting out his family, being used by Scrimgeour to get to the Burrow, so that Scrimgeour can try to use Harry for his own political/public relations purposes. Ychhhhh... Given Percy's sanctimonious, pompous and oh so pleased with himself letter to Ron (see below), I do not think his pride was even bruised, let alone totally and completely crushed. There is no canon evidence to support Percy's crushed pride. > Vmonte wrote: > "He does not realize that it's family that's important, not the > corporate ladder." > > Del replies: > I don't see why Percy should consider his family to be important, > considering how little they've ALWAYS all thought of him, except Molly? Susan says: Yes, and how has he treated Molly in return? She goes to see Percy to talk with him and what does he do? p. 72. "Mum's in a right state," said Ron dully. "You know ? crying and stuff. She came up to London to try to talk to Percy but he slammed the door in her face. That's despicable. > > Vmonte wrote: > "Instead of helping them out and the Order (there is a war going on > isn't there?), Percy is more concerned about "upward mobility."" > > Del replies: > Just because Percy is not helping the Order (does he even know about > them?), doesn't mean he's not helping in the war efforts. Susan says: Let's see..Molly, Arthur, Bill and Charley are in the Order. Fred and George are trying to get in. Ron and Ginny know about it. Percy doesn't? Oh, c'mon.... And Percy's supporting a corrupt ministry that is scapegoting people like Stan Shunpike in order to cover up their failure to capture any DEs or deal with LV's murder. > > Vmonte wrote: > "In fact, I love the entire Weasley clan. They are a warm and loving > family." > > Del replies: > You love them all, except Percy, right? > Susan says: Right! Let's review Percy's behavior.....(p. 72 OoP). "He (Percy) went completely beserk. He said -- well, he said loads of terible stuff. He said he's been having to struggle against Dad's lousy reputation ever since he joined the Ministry and that Dad's got no ambition and that's why we've always been -- you know -- not had a lot of money....He said Dad was an idiot to run around with Dumbledore...and if Mum and Dad were going to become traitors to the Ministry, he was going to make sure everyone knew he didn't belong to our family anymore...." Let's review parts of his letter to Ron about Harry: "From something the Minister let slip when telling me you are now a prefect, I gather that you are still seeing a lot of Harry Potter. I must tell you, Ron, that nothing could put you in danger of losing your badge more than continued fraternization with that boy. Yes, I am sure you are surprised to hear this ? no doubt you will say that Potter has always been Dumbledore's favorite ? but I feel bound to tell you that Dumbledore may not be in charge at Hogwarts much longer and the people who count have a very different -- and probably more accurate -- view of Potter's behavior. I shall say no more here, but if you look at the Daily Prophet tomorrow you will get a good idea of the way the wind is blowing -- and see if you can spot yours truly! Seriously, Ron, you do not want to be tarred with the same brush as Potter, it could be very damaging to your future prospects, and I am talking here about life after school too. As you must be aware, given that our father escorted him to court, Potter had a disciplinary hearing this summer in front of the whole Wizengamot and he did not come out of it looking too good. He got off on a mere technicality if you ask me and many of the people I've spoken to remain convinced of his guilt. It may be that you are afraid to sever ties with Potter ? I know that he can be unbalanced and, for all I know, violent ? but if you have any worries about this, or have spotted anything else in Potter's behavior that is troubling you, I urge you to speak to Dolores Umbridge, a really delightful woman, who I know will be only too happy to advise you." Let's look at Robbie Fisher's comments on this: "Percy must remember that Harry saved his sister from the basilisk in her first year at Hogwarts. And that Harry enabled him to win a dishonest bet against his girlfriend in the Quidditch season of Harry's third year. And that Harry has been all but a foster child to his parents, from whom Percy has heard all that Harry has gone through with his Muggle relatives and his confrontations with the Dark Lord. Percy must recall how Harry performed in the second task of the Triwizard Tournament, proving not only that Ron is the most important thing in Harry's world, but that Harry would even risk losing 1000 galleons to help the mer-people's hostages to safety. All these things from Percy's own experience, besides all Harry's triumphs and goodness that the Weasley family has discussed over the previous four years, ought to give Percy a good idea what kind of boy Harry is. How could he set aside this firsthand knowledge and simply, suddenly, adopt a completely opposite view?- even on the say-so of his hero Fudge? Either Percy has lost his mind, or he has made up his mind to be unjust to Harry (either out of self-delusion or pure evil), ....." Susan resumes comments: Let's remember that Harry saved Ginny, Percy's sister, from being killed by Tom Riddle. Now here we are in the HBP...Percy hasn't had the guts or the character to admit he was wrong, that Harry isn't unbalanced, that Dumbledore was right, even that he picked the wrong horse to bet on particularly.....He hasn't acknowledge that Umbridge was vicious and abusive to the children...it wasn't just cutting Harry's hand...she SENT DEMENTORS TO SUCK OUT HIS SOUL...she wasn't worried that his cousin might also have his soul sucked out!...She did the Cruciatus Curse....(supposed to be a life time sentence in Azkaban..so much for wizard justice) in front of witnesses.... She illegally gave him veritasserum...she was going to have Filch flog Fred and George! But Percy thought she was a really delightful woman... Susan McGee From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 06:58:56 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 06:58:56 -0000 Subject: Of course Snape is culpable! (Was Re: Snape culpable) In-Reply-To: <20050724033700.13942.qmail@web60413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136901 Larry wrote: I think it is the choice and only the choice. Whether a good decision is arrived at through cold, calculating reason, or a deeply heartfelt passion, doesn't really matter. Whether our favorite potions master could identify with the pain he caused is not, at least to me, important. For me it comes down to this, Snape has had, throughout the books, innumerable opportunities to either cause pain, or to not cause pain; he chose to cause pain. So doesn't his culpability stem from his choices, not the feelings, or the lack of feelings that may lie behind those choices? vmonte responds: Exactly! Snape has always been consistent in his choice to cause other people pain. In this he has always been consistent! Snape's behavior, when isolated from his "spin," still points to a cruel and sadistic personality. JKR even calls Snape a "very sadistic teacher." Surely, his choice to consistently choose what is wrong from what is right must mean something? If it is our choices that make us who we are then Snape's choice to cause other people pain is a FACT that cannot be taken out of the equation when assessing his motives and loyalties. Vivian From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 20:10:21 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 20:10:21 -0000 Subject: Chapter 1 (somewhat long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136902 Geoff Bannister: Chapter 1 is set in the summer of 1996. The Prime > Minister was John Major, in his lastyear of office... > Tony Blair was not elected until May 1997. Alm: ...HBP probably took place during Major's > term (which is why I included his name and put it first), I think > that JKR may be having some fun with politics... One detail that > makes me think she's playing was the use of the pronoun "he" to > refer to the current PM's predecessor (wasn't Major right after > Thatcher?); Yes, Thatcher stepped down in 1990 after a massive loss of public support. Of course, plenty of Britons felt she was for practical purposes indistinguishable from U.S. President Reagan, so Fudge might just be confused. He usually is. That said, I think it's pretty clear the Prime Minister in Chapter 1 is Johanthony Blaijor, whose film scenes will need to be shot twice, once with each PM, then spliced together. -hekatesheadband From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 7 22:19:37 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:19:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Harry and Ginny: Harry/Luna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136903 phoenixgod2000 wrote: > Harry likes Luna. He thinks she is funny-weird, not creepy-weird > like every other student. She has a lighthearted sense of humor > that I think would do well to balance out Harry's edge. Ginny > doesn't do that. While she is funny, her sense of humor is all about > mocking/pranks/insults. It tears down, not builds up. Luna is just > more pleasant in my view. I think Ginny would get old while Luna > would always be fresh. > Pat: In OOTP, Luna showed interest in Ron. In HBP, I have a vague memory that she did again - maybe you would remember better - I was in a stunned state, and focused on other things. I thought she squeezed in beside him at the table, but I may be wrong. Yes, Harry enjoyed Luna during the Christmas party, but I took it that he was laughing at her Rotfang Conspiracy theory, and couldn't really be with someone who honestly believed that. On the other hand, after Luna did the Quidditch commentary, Ron thoroughly enjoyed her, and hoped for more. If R/Hr don't work out for some reason, I can see R/Luna in book 7. But either way, R/Luna or H/Luna, I have to say I see Luna progressing into the trio better than I saw Ginny progressing in. So Jo knows how to do such a thing, I just don't see her having done it with Ginny, despite the fact she says she did. We knew Hermione and Ginny were friendly, she could have used that to ease Ginny in, but instead, they're fighting. I'm hoping for H/Hr and R/Luna. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 07:15:33 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:15:33 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136904 "lealess" wrote: > If Dumbledore believes Snape could > lie to Draco about something like an > Unbreakable Vow, then (1) he must > believe that Snape can lie to him, > which would tend to make him a less > trusting of his spy at all, or (2) > he must be really stupid and believe > that Snape could not also lie to him. Are you trying to tell me that Dumbledore wants Snape to be a spy but he doesn't want him to lie to anybody about anything?! Lying is what undercover spies do, it's as natural as breathing. Eggplant From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Aug 8 03:45:00 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 03:45:00 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Sn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Valky wrote: I'm > > Saraquel: spanner in the works! Although I think all the posters in > this thread have made some excellent arguments, I'm afraid I'm not > convinced of the premise that Snape and DD were arguing about Draco > at all. I agree that it is assuming too much that Snape and Dumbledore were arguing over Draco. Let me offer yet another interpretation. At this time Dumbledore has reason to believe that someone is out to commit murder at Hogwarts. But, does he at this time truly know he is the target? He says to Draco that he knows Draco has been trying to kill him, but he may have just deduced that at the moment - or else have gotten some evidence we don't know about yet. Who, after all, has been harmed? Students. And what student might be a target of an assassin? Harry, of course. Or maybe Dumbledore realizes he is the target, but is afraid that when the killer realizes that he (DD) is not such easy pickings, the killer may move to a more readily approachable victim. Now, we have speculated long before this that Snape may have a mission from Dumbledore to watch over Harry. Perhaps that is what he doesn't want to do anymore? Certainly his feelings for Harry seem to have been aggravated by the Occlumency incident, not to mention their interactions in DADA. Perhaps the conversation went something like this: Snape: It is impossible to deal with that arrogant boy! DD: I know about your feelings, Severus. But Harry must be safeguarded. Snape: In occlumency last year... DD: You know my views on that, Severus. I will hear no more about it. Snape: The boy constantly disrespects me in class! [At this point Hagrid happens along] DD: I know this is difficult for you, Severus. But you cannot pretend that you have exerted a maximum effort. Snape: It is impossible! DD: Severus, I have already told you that this is imperative. I suggest you start your investigations in your own house. Snape: You assume too much! What if I don't want to do this anymore! DD: Severus Snape that is absolutely enough! You have given your word that you will do this, and you WILL do it! I will hear absolutely nothing else on the subject! Thus Snape is forced to continue his (to him) humiliating task of watching over the (to him) arrogant and irresponsible Harry Potter. What are the affects of this? Perhaps none. Perhaps it weakens his loyalty to Dumbledore, a loyalty already strained by the Unbreakable Vow. Perhaps it sets the stage for a further disintegration when Harry attacks Draco, and Snape, when he complains to Dumbledore about Harry's recklessness and arrogance, is told to bite his tongue and continue with his mission. Who knows? But one more possibility for the grist mill. Lupinlore From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 05:07:27 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 22:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry and Ginny: Accepting Del's Challenge and Lupin/Tonks and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <1123385852.1606.86611.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050808050727.79800.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136906 Marianne S wrote: I agree with that as well. Yet I also wonder... has anyone brought up the fact that Harry, under the invisibility cloak AFTER taking the Felix Felicis, first made it look to Lavender that just Ron and Hermione were leaving the boys' dorm and then, still invisible, bumped into Ginny in the portrait hole, making her think that Dean was "helping" her and ultimately leading to their split. Though I believe those splits were inevitable, it seems like Felix might have given them a nudge. Lynda wrote: I really think that the possession of her by LV took her longer than just the summer between CoS and PoA to get over, and that's the reason she was so unobtrusive for so long and even so nervous around Harry. Through GoF, I noticed that she and Hermione seem to be good friends, so I considered that as a not so subtle signal that there was more to Ginny than meets the eye. Also being the seventh child is usually considered significant. I've already posted about many of the clues I saw to her importance in the series. It will be interesting to see what JKR does with her in the seventh book. There's that number again... Marianne S wrote: I think that's an EXCELLENT assessment! As for that number...anyone notice how this month's Wizard of the Month on JKR's site is Wenlock, Bridget (1202 - 1285) Famous Arithmancer. First to establish the magical properties of the number seven. Lynda says: I did notice that in passing as I read the book through the first time. I just started it again last night. The FF potion is supposed to do that type of thing though--give the one who drank it a little nudge toward their own goals, a bit of luck, so it does make perfect sense in that case. As for the number seven. Very important I know, although I'm more familiar with its importance in Biblical terms than otherwise. I may check out the website on that. I haven't checked out the website for quite some time. Now, a little about my reading of the Tonks/Lupin thread. I did actually post one other note quite some time back that read something like, "there was a Remus/Sirius subtext?" I never read it into the storyline, so it was kind of a surprise to read about it. I realized in reading OOP that Tonks was somewhat interested in Lupin, always near him, a little more clumsy than usual when he was around. For some reason they were always on the same missions for the Order. So, the hospital scene and then later DD's funeral with Tonks/Lupin together and Tonks with her Metamorphmagus ability apparently restored were pleasant surprises for me. An Guz: I think you may be right about Lupin being a metaphor for an HIV infected person. It makes a lot of sense, as do his objections. A good friend of mine from high school died of AIDS several years ago, and the last time we (my high school choir reunion group) saw him, it was so sad. He isolated himself from us for the entire evening. He was there, but not, in a manner of speaking. Finally, our old choir teacher went and got him and brought him to the group, but it was obvious that it had been a long time since he felt that people really cared... Lynda DeColores From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Aug 8 08:24:42 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:24:42 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny: Accepting Del's Challenge and Lupin/Tonks and RL experiences In-Reply-To: <20050808050727.79800.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136908 An Guz: I think you may be right about Lupin being a metaphor for an HIV infected person. It makes a lot of sense, as do his objections. A good friend of mine from high school died of AIDS several years ago, and the last time we (my high school choir reunion group) saw him, it was so sad. He isolated himself from us for the entire evening. He was > there, but not, in a manner of speaking. Finally, our old choir teacher went and got him and brought him to the group, but it was obvious that it had been a long time since he felt that people really cared... > > > > Lynda > > > > But of course the metaphor of him as a person with AIDS would also imply strongly that he is a gay man. Susan Join Harry Potter for Grownups over 40 by emailing me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Aug 8 08:30:53 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:30:53 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136909 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "lealess" wrote: > > > If Dumbledore believes Snape could > > lie to Draco about something like an > > Unbreakable Vow, then (1) he must > > believe that Snape can lie to him, > > which would tend to make him a less > > trusting of his spy at all, or (2) > > he must be really stupid and believe > > that Snape could not also lie to him. > > Are you trying to tell me that Dumbledore wants Snape to be a spy but > he doesn't want him to lie to anybody about anything?! Lying is what > undercover spies do, it's as natural as breathing. > > Eggplant yes, the nature of a double agent is to lie... I can imagine though that EVEN IF Snape is really on DD's side that he still might take the opportunity to contribute to Sirius' death. He hates Sirius and was ready to give him to the dementors in the PoA. Yet, there are two instances that I think are lies to Cissy and Bella.. 1) that Snape saved Harry's life in the first year at the Quidditch match 2) how could Snape have contributed to Sirius' death? This has got to be a lie...but why is he lying? To give himself more credit? Snape certainly might have goaded Sirius into heroics..but he didn't need to..Sirius may have been emotionally arrested, but he was brave and noble (Harry remembers him living on rats in a cave to be near Harry)..he would have risen up to protect Harry no matter what Snape did...and okay, so what if Snape DID goad Sirius into going to the MoM to rescue Harry..it could have gone the other way, Sirius could have klilled Bellatrix....there's no guarantee that Bellatrix would win the duel... 3) Okay, and I keep harping on the fact that JKR gave her imprimatur to the film PoA....what about the fact that Snape stands between the children and the werewolf....what does that say about him? Susan McGee (if you want to join HP for Grownups Over 40, please email me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com) From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 8 08:31:26 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:31:26 -0000 Subject: Snape, You Think I am Your Father2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > pg 214 AE HBP > Then old Tom rises out of the pumpkin > patch and becomes Lord Voldemort. Whoo hooo! I'd say the party was short lived, Snape's expectations of having a father figure got waylayed real quick in the presence of the most maniacal self centered wizard that ever lived. No unconditional love--not even for the son of an old girlfriend--"I, the Half-Blood > I think it would make a guy rethink his loyalties. > From way out in left field, > > Cindy Sandra writes: Hi Cindy, I think I've been grazing in the left field for a while. I like what you're saying there, and it's made me think! Anyway, my theory is that DD is Snape's father, maybe not biological but more likely adoptive - and that's why he trusts him so much, and that's why Snape can walk so close to both sides - he'll do anything for DD, no matter how grudging, willing or unwilling, or dangerous. I've kept quiet for ages about that one, but now we're talking paternal figures, I thought I'd float it. Voldermort doesn't know that situation of course, hence Snape's closeness in the whole Death Eater world. Sandra From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 08:30:23 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:30:23 -0000 Subject: SHIP: JKR on Ginny, WAS Ginny is Mackenzie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136911 Ali: > I'm not saying that JKR is a bad writer nor am I saying that > I'm as good as she. I'm merely saying that she made a rookie > mistake in writing H/G. Valky: Hi Ali, I honestly do extend you due respect in saying this, I promise. So I hope you don't mind if I state my difference of opinion with this particular frame of mind. The POV that the lack of H/G relationship canon in HBp, I understand, could constitute a 'rookie mistake' as you said, but is it possible that perhaps this fuzzy focus writing of the ship was entirely deliberate and not a mistake at all. I'm aware of the interview canon where JKR in a sense rolls her eyes and says well if they don't get it, I have done all I can.. is what most annoys those who can't see that the H/G relationship in HBP was anywhere near all that could be done. Now I don't mean to unnecessarily complicate the O.R. interpretation of that statement, yet I *do* think that taking it to mean that Jo believes she wrote a good filled and frilled H/G love story in HBP but she *actually DIDN'T* might be slicing it incorrectly. Heres the quote: MA: You're making our lives a lot easier by laying it on the table - JKR: Well I think anyone who is still shipping Harry/Hermione after this book - ES: [whispered] Delusional! JKR: Uh - no! But they need to go back and reread, I think. IMO this can't be taken directly as a statement that we *should* get the H/G ship absolutely. Because it isn't about Harry's feelings that JKR is talking here, but Hermione's. I definitely am sure that JKR is saying that we should *get* Ron and Hermione. We should *get it* that Hermione loves Ron Weasley always has and always will, any attention between Hr/H couldn't scratch the surface of the relationship that built between R/Hr. Harry's feelings just don't count here. Now heres the quote on H/G in HBP: ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can't figure out what Emerson actually said here.] JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt ? and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned ? initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in. Valky: Now here, we are being told that the intention was to build the characters side by side until they were quite clearly viewed as perfect for each other. IOW, I think, a *fairytale romance* and not anything more for now. I liken it to a Cinderella story. In Cinderella, we are shown tht Miss Ella is a kind girl a good person, she has a strength of character that we admire, and we watch her grow a little and become a lady - Harry is like this - except a boy who grows to a young man instead. When Miss Ella's Prince Charming comes along, we are shown that he's a little cut above the ordinary, he's got the characteristics that we think Ms Ella *deserves* in her companion. So our mind puts them together and they live happily ever after. No details, no filler. Just universal hope for the life we wanted for Ella to come to her finally. And there I see the HBP Ginny and Harry. Yes we are supposed to use our imaginations, I think. H/G are supposed to be perfect *for each other*, not Harry perfect in the eyes of some reader as a boyfriend or Ginny happy in the eyes of another as a girlfriend, just for each other and nothing more. This Happily Ever After was always intended to last not longer than the blink of an eye too. So for those of us adults who would be disappointed with the vacuum (that probably would appeal more to younger readers), there might be more of this romance to come. My bet is that there is. Valky From pfsch at gmx.de Mon Aug 8 08:41:02 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Schuster) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:41:02 +0200 Subject: Fleur+Bill (SHIP) In-Reply-To: <1123467858.4776.37335.m21@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123467858.4776.37335.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <42F71A9E.4070709@gmx.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136912 Ginger wrote: > Suppose Bill had gone to F&G's shop after work, sat around a while > talking to them, and, after closing time, one of the twins asked if > he had seen the new sign on the front window. Having come in the > back way, Bill had missed it, so he goes onto the now-deserted Diagon > Alley to view it. Stooping to tie his bootlace, he is distracted and > doesn't notice the werewolf bounding from around the corner of the > building. F&G do notice and come to his aid, but not before he is > mauled. > > Would Fleur still see his scars as the badge of honour of a hero? Or > would she feel differently since he got the scars in a non-battle > situation? Would she still stay with him were he disfigured, but not > a hero? I (uncurably believing in the good in the human) think Fleur loves Bill because of his character (at least mainly because of this, perhaps also because he's handsome). But if she loves because e.g. of his bravery and he is still brave even if this isn't the cause of his scar, I believe she would continue loving him. And if he fights DEs bravely one day and gets a scar the next day, he's still brave. She showed (IMHO) that his beauty isn't the only thing that matters to her. I see, I cannot find the words to make my point completely clear, but I hope at least a little? -- Goodbite setrok (http://www.peterfelixschuster.de) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 08:41:56 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:41:56 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth / Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136913 Valky wrote (snip of almost everything): "You're right, and Harry must now turn to himself. But I think he's used to doing that really. And you might agree that some of the canon I have put forward suggests he's actually not doing a half bad job of it." Del replies: I do agree. Wwhen I was reading your post, a thought kept coming into my mind: "finally!" Finally someone is discussing my points, instead of discussing my right to make them. Finally someone is explaining to me how and why they read the same bits of canon differently than I do, instead of telling me that I shouldn't read them the way I do, that most people don't, that I shouldn't project my own experience and understanding or that this is not how JKR meant me to understand it. Finally someone is validating my views while at the same time explaining why maybe they are not really aligned with canon. And finally someone manages to make some new possibilities enter my mind (as Lynn also did before), instead of pointlessly antagonising me. Yours, Valky, was a thoughtful and USEFUL post, an exemplary post. It furthered both the discussion (though I most probably won't keep discussing that point right now) and my understanding of and insight into the Potterverse. Thank you! Del From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Aug 8 08:53:17 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 04:53:17 EDT Subject: Hogwarts questions/OoP questions Message-ID: <193.45507aa5.3028777d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136914 Will Hogwarts remain open? If yes, Will Harry, Ron or Hermione go back even for a while? Who will be Head Boy and Head Girl? (Neville and Luna!) Who will be the Headmistress/Headmaster? Will Ginny be a prefect? (Since she won't be of age, she won't have a choice about going back to school). Who will be the DADA teacher? Who will be the leader of the Order of the Phoenix? Susan . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smilingator81 at aol.com Mon Aug 8 08:57:51 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:57:51 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: <063e01c59bd6$d79fd510$1502a8c0@april> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "April Johnson" wrote: > "spotsgal" wrote: > > The workings of the Foe-Glass are never explained in detail, so > > it's possible it only shows what you believe to be your enemies, > > although it seems that it would be much more useful if the mirror > > could detect that itself (the same way that a Sneakoscope is > > valuable because it detects the untrustworthy people > > for you). > > (snip) > > > April: > > I was thinking about this. Is it possible that what Harry himself sees in the foe glass are HIS enemies and not FakeMoody's. In the mirror of erised, the person sees in the mirror their own desires, not someone elses. So it would make sense that Harry would see Snape in the mirror. smilingator: Well, Harry also saw DD and Prof. McGonagall in the foe glass, so wouldn't that make them his enemies too if the foe glass? Well, unless he was seeing both his enemies AND Fake Moody's enemies. OR... no... JKR wouldn't do that to us... but another option is that DD and McGonagall are Harry's enemies too (but I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt this). Just my thoughts... From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 09:23:45 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:23:45 -0000 Subject: Merope Gaunt and Mayella Ewell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136916 Eric: > When reading HBP, I was struck by how much the Gaunt household > reminded me of a book I know very well---_To Kill a Mockingbird,_ and > specifically the way the Ewells are described. Me: Now that you mention it, the Gaunts and the Ewells are strikingly similar. I'll add one more detail. The Gaunts are slovenly, dirty, uneducated hovel-dwellers, but they still manage to find a group to look down on: Muggles and half-bloods. Likewise, the Ewells are at the bottom of the food chain yet have a group of their own to look down on: blacks. The more degraded these families are, the more desperately they cling to the fiction that they're superior to others because of some inborn trait that poverty can't erase: pure blood and Parseltongue, or white skin. I remember a history teacher of mine once pointing out that the millions of slaves in the South were owned by a very small percentage of the whites-- something like fewer than ten percent were slaveholders. Most of the whites could never afford slaves and weren't benefitting at all from the practice, and yet many of them still supported it. My history teacher speculated that some poor whites were in favor of slavery because it gave them something to look down on-- some group even worse off than they were. -oiboyz From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 09:53:52 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:53:52 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136917 I've always been struck by the big deal JKR makes of Snape appearing in the Foe Glass. First Harry sees DD, Snape and McGonagall in the glass, and then the DD and McG move further into the room and Snape remains reflected in the Foe Glass alone. Perhaps JKR is being very sneaky, and the Foe Glass has just switched from showing Crouch's enemies to showing the real Moody's enemies. Snape could be a foe of both Crouch and Moody; indeed, he has personal reasons to hate them both whether he's loyal to LV or DD. But even if Snape is on DD's side at the end of GoF, he could have defected back to LV by the end of HBP. So I can't take the Foe Glass as proof of Snape's goodness, but I prefer to believe that he *will* be shown in Book 7 to be a loyal Order spy. :) -oiboyz From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 10:10:06 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:10:06 -0000 Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136918 Susan McGee wrote: "First, you have no evidence from canon to support that "by the time Percy most probably learned of the situation, Arthur was completely out of danger."" Del replies: Actually, I do. It's in two parts. 1. Hardback UK ed, p. 423, ch. "St Mungo's Hospital". Harry, Sirius and the Weasley kids have been waiting all night to learn about Arthur's state. "At ten past five in the morning by Ron's watch, the kitchen door swung open and Mrs Weasley entered the kitchen. She was extremely pale, but when they all turned to look at her, Fred, Ron and Harry half rising from their chairs, she gave a wan smile. 'He's going to be all right,' she said, her voice weak with tiredness. 'He's sleeping. We can all go and see him later. Bill's sitting with him now; he's going to take the morning off work.'" So we know that by 5:10am, Arthur is out of danger, and well enough to have visitors. 2. The second part is actually a lack of evidence. We are never told, as far as I can remember, that anyone informed Percy about his father during the night. So we don't have any canon telling us that Percy was told that his father was in *mortal* danger and that Percy refused to care about him. Susan wrote: "Even if you are right, you don't ask how your father is after ther has been a near fatal attack, or visit or send a card?" Del replies: You're assuming that Percy didn't ask about his father. We know he didn't ask *his family* about his father, but we don't know that he didn't ask anyone else. Visit or send a card: Percy is about 20 at the time, and very angry at his father. Not visiting or sending a card is not nice, but very much in character for such a young man in this kind of situation IMO. As for the attack, it took place in the Ministry, at night. Percy might have wondered what ever his father was doing, sneaking at night in the Ministry. Susan wrote: "No, it is consonant with a Percy who storms off because his father tells him the truth -- he's been promoted for political reasons, not for his abilities." Del replies: The truth? How do you know it's the truth? Susan wrote: "Arthur, Charlie, Bill, Molly and Ginny have not been "unsupportive" of him." Del replies: I can't remember any of them ever being happy with who Percy is or what he has achieved. Susan wrote: "Because his father points out the truth (and Percy learns later that it IS the truth)" Del replies: I can't remember that part. Can you point out where we learn about it being the truth? Susan wrote: "Percy storms off, after saying incredibly vicious things to his father." Del replies: I never saw what he said to his father as being really horrible. See below. Susan wrote: "Percy continues to be a lickspittle, shutting out his family, being used by Scrimgeour to get to the Burrow, so that Scrimgeour can try to use Harry for his own political/public relations purposes. Ychhhhh..." Del replies: Harry often shuts himself from his friends in the same book. And just because Harry got some useful experience about not letting other people use him doesn't mean Percy has the same kind of experience. Harry has had to deal with people using him for their own PR goals for a long time (think of Lockhart in CoS), but Percy hasn't. And we don't know that Percy knew what Scrimgeour wanted with Harry. Susan wrote: "Given Percy's sanctimonious, pompous and oh so pleased with himself letter to Ron (see below), I do not think his pride was even bruised, let alone totally and completely crushed. There is no canon evidence to support Percy's crushed pride." Del replies: I think there's a misunderstanding here. I never meant to say that Arthur sent Percy into the depths of depression or something. I only meant to say that Arthur flatly denied that Percy could have gotten any promotion at work because of his own efforts and capacities, and by doing so stomped all over his son's pride. The best proof for me that it crushed Percy's pride is the anger with which he replied to his father. I figure that only someone who has been badly hurt can throw back such hurtful things. Even Harry figures that Arthur went pretty far: p. 69, ch. "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place": "'I'm coming to that. Dad reckons Fudge only wants Percy in this office because he wants to use him to spy on the family - and Dumbledore.' Harry let out a low whistle. 'Bet Percy loved that.'" Let's be honest: *who* would take such a thing with a smile on their face? Who would not feel horribly humiliated? Susan wrote: "Yes, and how has he treated Molly in return? She goes to see Percy to talk with him and what does he do? p. 72. "Mum's in a right state," said Ron dully. "You know ? crying and stuff. She came up to London to try to talk to Percy but he slammed the door in her face. That's despicable." Del replies: In GoF, Harry often had to remind himself of what Ron had done in order to keep being mad at him. In HBP, Harry had to turn away from Ginny after he broke up with her, because he was afraid he would lose his resolve otherwise. My opinion is that this is exactly the same kind of thing: Percy won't allow himself to see his mom, or to accept her gifts, because he's afraid this will sway his resolve. I don't see this as despicable, just very sad. Susan wrote: "Let's see..Molly, Arthur, Bill and Charley are in the Order. Fred and George are trying to get in. Ron and Ginny know about it. Percy doesn't? Oh, c'mon.... " Del replies: I always got the impression that the Order is a secret society. I can't remember Percy actually mentioning the Order's name. And Percy left before the other Weasleys entered the Order. So unless you point me to a canon proof that Percy does know about the Order, I still think it is not a far-fetched assumption to say that he doesn't. Susan wrote: "And Percy's supporting a corrupt ministry that is scapegoting people like Stan Shunpike in order to cover up their failure to capture any DEs or deal with LV's murder. " Del replies: This is the case of anyone who's ever worked for almost any government, in time of war as well as in time of peace. Scapegoating people is a *classic* tactic, I don't think there is a single government who hasn't used it. Susan quoted: "He said he's been having to struggle against Dad's lousy reputation ever since he joined the Ministry" Del replies: Most probably true. Susan quoted: "that Dad's got no ambition" Del replies: Definitely true. Arthur doesn't have any of the kind of ambition Percy has, the kind that makes one go up the ladder. Susan quoted: "and that's why we've always been -- you know -- not had a lot of money...." Del replies: Partly true. I've been a government worker. The unspoken rule IS that you will try to go up the ladder. I even have friends working into domains where they HAVE to go up the ladder, so as not to block other people doing it too. And money is directly linked to your going up the ladder because this is the way the game is played: you are expected to go up, and you get more money as you do so. By refusing to play the game, Arthur DID deny his family additional money. Susan quoted: "He said Dad was an idiot to run around with Dumbledore..." Del replies: That's his uninformed opinion. Percy is no Legilimens, and he's a very young man. He got it wrong, but then much older and much more experienced people got it wrong too. Susan quoted: "and if Mum and Dad were going to become traitors to the Ministry, he was going to make sure everyone knew he didn't belong to our family anymore...."" Del replies: Logical. If you thought your family was betraying your country, wouldn't you disengage yourself from them too? Susan quoted: ""Percy must remember that Harry saved his sister from the basilisk in her first year at Hogwarts. And that Harry enabled him to win a dishonest bet against his girlfriend in the Quidditch season of Harry's third year. And that Harry has been all but a foster child to his parents, from whom Percy has heard all that Harry has gone through with his Muggle relatives and his confrontations with the Dark Lord. Percy must recall how Harry performed in the second task of the Triwizard Tournament, proving not only that Ron is the most important thing in Harry's world, but that Harry would even risk losing 1000 galleons to help the mer-people's hostages to safety. All these things from Percy's own experience, besides all Harry's triumphs and goodness that the Weasley family has discussed over the previous four years, ought to give Percy a good idea what kind of boy Harry is. How could he set aside this firsthand knowledge and simply, suddenly, adopt a completely opposite view?- even on the say-so of his hero Fudge? Either Percy has lost his mind, or he has made up his mind to be unjust to Harry (either out of self-delusion or pure evil), ....."" Del replies: This is a highly simplistic view, IMO. Yes Percy knows that Harry did all those things. But I fail to see why this should mean that Percy should blindly believe DD when he says that Harry saw LV's rebirth. Percy is not saying that Harry is evil, he's saying he's delusional and making up stories. That's not the same thing. And it's not impossible either. Susan wrote: "Now here we are in the HBP...Percy hasn't had the guts or the character to admit he was wrong, that Harry isn't unbalanced, that Dumbledore was right, even that he picked the wrong horse to bet on particularly....." Del replies: Agreed. I'll freely admit that I was a bit disappointed that Percy didn't show more guts. But I also remember that Percy is still a very young man, and one who was never emotionally mature or balanced. Even if it takes him longer than for most other people, it is very possible IMO that Percy will someday face reality, sort through the many bits of contradicting information he's got, reach the right conclusion, and reform his way, as so many in the Potterverse did before him. Susan wrote: "He hasn't acknowledge that Umbridge was vicious and abusive to the children...it wasn't just cutting Harry's hand...she SENT DEMENTORS TO SUCK OUT HIS SOUL...she wasn't worried that his cousin might also have his soul sucked out!...She did the Cruciatus Curse....(supposed to be a life time sentence in Azkaban..so much for wizard justice) in front of witnesses.... She illegally gave him veritasserum...she was going to have Filch flog Fred and George! But Percy thought she was a really delightful woman..." Del replies: First, I think it's unfair to expect Percy to have foreknowledge. Most of those things had not even happened by the time Percy wrote his letter. Second, we don't know what Percy knows or not. How much of what Umbridge did is public knowledge now, or even Ministry knowledge for that matter? I personally suspect very little, if anything, or she wouldn't still be working for the MoM and she wouldn't have showed up at DD's funeral. AFAIK, *nobody* ever reported her or ever repeated to the authorities what was said in her office. So I think that what she did is simply not known, and that Percy could very well not know about most, if not all, of those things. If you know of canon pointing to the contrary, please produce it. I'm not saying that Percy is a little saint. I am only saying that Percy has always had huge psychological issues that were greatly enhanced by the way his family members related to him. I'm also saying that we shouldn't hold Percy accountable for the knowledge he might not have. And we shouldn't expect an immature 20-year-old man to follow blindly into the footsteps of his father, a teenager, and an old man, it's not psychologically plausible IMO. That's all. Del From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 10:49:23 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:49:23 -0000 Subject: Not-Quite Werewolf!Bill Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136919 Another Bill thought popped into my head. Now that he has been attacked and has some werewolf tendancies (raw meat), will he still be allowed to work at Gringott's? The obvious answer to us RL people would be "Of course, he's not a werewolf. He's no danger to anyone." But what of the WW? They are pretty steeped in their prejudices, and DU has passed those anti-werewolf laws. How strict are those laws? Do they apply only to full-blown werewolves? Or to any who have been attacked by one? I can see DU making them as strict as possible just to be mean. Will they matter to the Goblins? Do they even apply to the Goblins? And if so, do the Goblins care? ;) If Bill isn't allowed to work any more, does this mean our favourite curse-breaker is free to help Harry with his Horcrux-finding? He would be an asset in getting through the curses LV may have left. Perhaps JKR gave him his experience in Egypt for a reason. Even if he is still working, he'd still be a good tactical advisor for Harry. I hope Harry remembers that. Just my wonderings. Side note to Peter: Thank you for responding to my Fleur+Bill post. I was afraid I had muddied the waters with my first example. I appreciate your input. Ginger, thinking that if Bill is unemployed, that Fleur will have to work full-time. Pity. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 8 10:49:43 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 06:49:43 -0400 Subject: Snape's writing Message-ID: <003b01c59c06$e37241e0$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136920 OotP: "So, Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen, around Harry's own age. His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbours, and yet his writing was *miniscule and cramped.*" Now, I can't find, if it's there, where the writing in Advanced Potion Making is described as miniscule and cramped but Hermione does say "It might have been a girl. I think the handwriting looks more like a girl's than a boy's." Ron at one point says Hermione's writing is small (sorry, I forget which book) when he's trying to get a few more inches of information for an essay. But the question is, why doesn't Harry recognize the writing in the book as Snape's when he's seen Snape's handwriting at the time when Snape would have been writing in this book? Even if Snape's writing now, when he writes on the blackboard, is different, Harry has seen the 15 yr-old Snape's writing before. Any ideas? Is Snape taking credit for his Mother's work? CathyD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 8 11:26:36 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (duffypoo) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:26:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's writing In-Reply-To: <003b01c59c06$e37241e0$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > OotP: "So, Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen, around Harry's own age. His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbours, and yet his writing was *miniscule and cramped.*" > > Now, I can't find, if it's there, where the writing in Advanced Potion Making is described as miniscule and cramped OK, I found it: "...he saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same *small, cramped handwriting* as the instructions that had won him his bottle..." but Hermione does say "It might have been a girl. I think the handwriting looks more like a girl's than a boy's." Ron at one point says Hermione's writing is small (sorry, I forget which book) when he's trying to get a few more inches of information for an essay. > > But the question is, why doesn't Harry recognize the writing in the book as Snape's when he's seen Snape's handwriting at the time when Snape would have been writing in this book? Even if Snape's writing now, when he writes on the blackboard, is different, Harry has seen the 15 yr-old Snape's writing before. > > Any ideas? Is Snape taking credit for his Mother's work? > > CathyD > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 8 11:29:58 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:29:58 -0000 Subject: Snape's writing In-Reply-To: <003b01c59c06$e37241e0$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > OotP: "So, Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen, around Harry's own age. His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbours, and yet his writing was *miniscule and cramped.*" > > Now, I can't find, if it's there, where the writing in Advanced Potion Making is described as miniscule and cramped but Hermione does say "It might have been a girl. I think the handwriting looks more like a girl's than a boy's." Marianne: In the US edition, on page 195 it says "Harry....saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same small, cramped handwriting as the instructions that had won him his bottle of Felix Felicis..." This is after their first Potions class, where Harry has had trouble trying to squint and decipher the handwriting. CathyD: > But the question is, why doesn't Harry recognize the writing in the book as Snape's when he's seen Snape's handwriting at the time when Snape would have been writing in this book? Even if Snape's writing now, when he writes on the blackboard, is different, Harry has seen the 15 yr-old Snape's writing before. > > Any ideas? Is Snape taking credit for his Mother's work? Marianne: I don't think it's surprising that Harry didn't recognize the handwriting as Snape's. He only had the one glimpse in SWM of Student!Snape's writing, although I immediately made the connection. But, I can't recall any other character's handwriting as being described as cramped. I seem to recall handwriting being descripted as sloped or spiky, but Snape's was the one that stuck in my mind as "cramped." Maybe if Harry made a pensieve memory of his walk through Snape's memory (can one do that?) he'd pick up that extra detail. Plus, I think when Harry wandering about in Snape's memory, he quickly realized that his father would also be somewhere in the room taking that same test. That glimpse into the past was more important to Harry than in concentrating on whatever Snape was up to. And certainly, Snape's writing on the blackboard in his class would have to be different in order for people to read it. That does make me wonder - when Snape grades students' papers, does he simply indicate the grade, or does he make written comments about what has been written? If the latter, what does that handwriting look like? I don't think Snape is taking credit for his mother's work because I believe that we and Harry see Snape's comments written in the Advanced Potions book, not his mother's. It would seem odd if Snape is suddenly revealed to be the same sort of "pretender" to Potions excellence that Harry is. Marianne From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 8 11:36:12 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:36:12 -0000 Subject: Snape's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136923 Duffypoo wrote: > > But the question is, why doesn't Harry recognize the writing in > the book as Snape's when he's seen Snape's handwriting at the time > when Snape would have been writing in this book? Potioncat: Well, I recognised the writing at once, but was thrown off by the Half- blood part, by the book being so old and by Lupin's not recognising the name. There have been many times (several times at least) when Harry hasn't recognised something or someone and besides, he liked the advice he was getting. Lupin's not recognising the name reminds me of Lupin and Snape pretending not to recognise the names on the Marauders' Map. I wonder if he's telling the truth in this case? Snape has lied before (gasp!) so maybe he's lying here. However, I think it is supposed to be Snape's handwriting and he is supposed to be the one who made up the spells and he is the Half-Blood Prince. From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 12:40:30 2005 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:40:30 -0000 Subject: hepzibah and, zacharias Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136924 Hi My apologies if this has already been discussed to death, but i did a quick search of the archives and didnt find any mention so... Do you think there is a possibility that Hepzibah Smith is related to Zacharias? He's in Hufflepuff after all and she was a distant descendent of Helga Hufflpuff, so maybe the whole family gets sorted into that house? And if so....does it have any bearing on the plot? will Zachrias find the horcrux? Or will he have a clue to where it can be found? Im pretty bad at theories so am hoping someone can take this someplace. cheers shagufta (back to lurkdom) From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 12:58:48 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:58:48 -0000 Subject: The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?% In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136925 Let's look at Robbie Fisher's comments on this: "Percy must remember that Harry saved his sister from the basilisk in her first year at Hogwarts. And that Harry enabled him to win a dishonest bet against his girlfriend in the Quidditch season of Harry's third year. And that Harry has been all but a foster child to his parents, from whom Percy has heard all that Harry has gone through with his Muggle relatives and his confrontations with the Dark Lord. Percy must recall how Harry performed in the second task of the Triwizard Tournament, proving not only that Ron is the most important thing in Harry's world, but that Harry would even risk losing 1000 galleons to help the mer-people's hostages to safety. All these things from Percy's own experience, besides all Harry's triumphs and goodness that the Weasley family has discussed over the previous four years, ought to give Percy a good idea what kind of boy Harry is. How could he set aside this firsthand knowledge and simply, suddenly, adopt a completely opposite view?- even on the say-so of his hero Fudge? Either Percy has lost his mind, or he has made up his mind to be unjust to Harry (either out of self-delusion or pure evil), ....." Susan resumes comments: Let's remember that Harry saved Ginny, Percy's sister, from being killed by Tom Riddle. Now here we are in the HBP...Percy hasn't had the guts or the character to admit he was wrong, that Harry isn't unbalanced, that Dumbledore was right, even that he picked the wrong horse to bet on particularly.....He hasn't acknowledge that Umbridge was vicious and abusive to the children...it wasn't just cutting Harry's hand...she SENT DEMENTORS TO SUCK OUT HIS SOUL...she wasn't worried that his cousin might also have his soul sucked out!...She did the Cruciatus Curse....(supposed to be a life time sentence in Azkaban..so much for wizard justice) in front of witnesses.... She illegally gave him veritasserum...she was going to have Filch flog Fred and George! But Percy thought she was a really delightful woman... vmonte: I cannot let this wonderful post pass without a comment. Susan has given canon based evidence to support all of her arguments. I really cannot add to her post because she covered everything about Percy that has been disturbing me about him since he left his family. Percy has made his choice--the wrong choice. I still have hope that in the next book he will come to his senses (I'm hoping only for the sake of his poor broken hearted mother). Vivian From drliss at comcast.net Mon Aug 8 13:43:47 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:43:47 -0400 Subject: SHIP:Remus/Tonks and real life experiences (long) In-Reply-To: <1123385852.1606.86611.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20050808090235.017503d8@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 136926 guz: Hey, I consider falling in love to be quite an emotional upheaval! ;- ) Anyway, I read JKR's bit on her website about the Order using the patroni to communicate, but we still don't really know how it works. Does the patronus speak? Lissa: This is something I'd really, really like to know. And you're right- it is interesting that Snape immediately recognizes Tonks's Patronus. I think the other thing that bothers me about her Patronus shift- and this is one of those over-analyzing things again- is that the wolf is NOT something like James's stag. The werewolf is a part of himself that causes Remus a great deal of pain and suffering, and is something he tries to hide. Like I said- that's overanalyzing. There's two different ways to take it: Tonks loves him despite that, or (more realistically) how else do you symbolize Remus without resorting to a Force-ghost Patronus? I've put thought into that one as well because for the purposes of fanfic, I've made Lily's Patronus into Remus (although very platonically), and I've had to do the same thing. guz: I agree- there's still more to Snape than meets the eye. The thing is, Snape and Tonks are completely different personality types. Tonks wears her heart on her sleeve (what Snape would call weak). Snape is also a super Occlumens and a double agent (who he's a double agent for, we don't know). There is no way he could have stayed alive this long if he couldn't control his emotions with respect to his magic. We've seen him lose his temper a few times, but it's never seemed to cause unwanted magic to happen. I have no idea if the idea of a changing patronus will become a significant plot point. It may have been a throw-away thing. Lissa: Yeah- I have no idea, either. It's not a theory I'm especially attached to- it's just one of the circumstances that would get me to shut up my whining about the Patronus change ;) (The other two would be if we find out Remus saved her life, or if we find out Remus's Patronus changed to reflect her.) I agree that falling in love can be an emotional upheaval. But the thing that makes me so uncomfortable about Tonks's Patronus change is that it's coupled with so many other behaviors that bother me- she's moping, the sapping of her powers, the breakdown in the hospital scene, etc., added to the fact we see no real indication of Remus's interest from his side. It's too many things for me to still respect a character I'd previously really liked for her spunk. I mean, she sassed Moody. How many people would have the guts to do that? :) But anyway... will Snape's Patronus change? Who knows, but if Snape's- or someone else's Patronus- DOES change, I'll have more respect for that plot decision. And that's really what it all is here. I certainly accept that Tonks and Remus is canon, I just have no respect at all for the way it was carried out. guz: Yup. I was chuckling throughout the book at what was obviously (as others have mentioned) a checklist of stuff thrown in for the fans: The fans wonder about Zabini? Here he is! The fans wonder if Snape's a vampire? Nope, we'll introduce you to a real one! The fans wonder if Harry will use a time turner in his final battle? Nope, they're all smashed! I actually enjoyed that, though, and I considered it a present from JKR to her fans. Lissa: It wasn't even so much the checkpoints- those amused me. It was the style. There were areas I felt really could have used some expansion- and things I thought we didn't need, and some passages where I felt like she was writing "this happened, then this happened, then this happened." She was doing more telling than showing in spots. That's what I meant by expository writing. I still loved the book, and she certainly didn't fall into that trap all the time (I think Harry and Dumbledore's quest to the cave is some of the best stuff she's ever written), but I did feel it in this book. It happens. guz: Well, they are in conflict, in a way. Since you have written Remus/Sirius fanfic, you have obviously thought long and hard about the relationship possibilities between those two. I tried to put myself in your position-- please see post #136724: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for what I came up with. Lissa: Actually, they're not in conflict at all ;) The only thing you have to do is change Remus from gay to bi. In fact, the fic I mentioned I was writing takes both relationships into account. The thing about Sirius being dead is by the time the hospital scene happens, Sirius has been dead a YEAR. And they've only had 2.5 years max to be back together, probably less. And I'm willing to bet money it would have been a hard relationship. Lupin grieved, I'm sure. But he's also been living for a year, and he's been in some very, very hard circumstances. But one of the interesting stats is that a widower who's been happy in marriage will remarry a lot early than a widow that's been happy in marriage. So a year is plenty of time for Remus to develop another attraction. It doesn't mean (if you ship them) that he doesn't love Sirius anymore, but it does mean he accepts his death and craves that emotional warmth again. But yeah, when you DO read it as a Remus/Sirius shipper, the ship is a slap in the face in some ways. guz: This is an excellent point, which kiricat also brought up. Please see post #136724: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my response. Lissa: I see the distinction you're drawing about difficult and controversial. However, again, I maintain that it doesn't have to be. Phillip Pullman pulled off a clearly gay couple in his His Dark Materials trilogy. Of course, they were angels and sexless, so they weren't COMPLETELY gay, but the implication was so clear that you forgot they were sexless most of the time. (It was also written a bit over the top for any relationship, but hey- that's beside the point ;) ) Now imagine that JKR had left out Tonks/Remus and at one point Harry had asked Remus about Sirius (grumbles about wishing he'd done that anyway), and Remus had just said "I loved him." Does not imply sex- heck, if you want you can even read it as friends.... I guess more the frustration I feel is that homosexuality in the form we might have seen it between Sirius and Remus (where their sexuality is already a footnote to dynamic, important, interesting characters, and their love would have been entirely in the background) should not be a controversial issue. Whether or not you believe homosexuality to be right or wrong, there are people in the world who are homosexual, and depicting a relationship between two of them should not be such a big deal- especially when that relationship is not the forefront of the book. Which is why I far, far prefer to think that JKR just never intended the relationship (which actually is what I think) than the publishers shot her down. Saves my blood pressure ;) Lissa: >One of the things I found very interesting about the interview was >the transition in which JKR asked what the interviewers thought >about Lupin/Tonks. She didn't bring it up during the shipping >conversation. Instead, she brought it up after discussing Draco >and the Death Eaters, talking about how something can look really >attractive, and then you get involved and find out it's too much >for you to handle. Right from there, she said "So what do you >think about Lupin/Tonks?" guz: This *is* interesting, and though I read this interview, I didn't pick up on this. Hmmm... Lissa: Heh. Like I said, I think it's probably over-analyzing. I think what REALLY happened is that conversation gets too close to plot-of-Book-7 territory, and JKR is trying to get the conversation away from there. But it's fun to make up my own version! guz: Please see post #136724: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my personal interpretation of the hospital scene. In short, I believe Lupin is a metaphor for someone who is HIV+. Lissa: Now, this is interesting because I've actually always considered Lupin as an excellent metaphor for someone who is HIV+ as well. (I never considered him a metaphor for homosexuality- just flat out homosexual ;) ) And reading it that way... well, I STILL don't like the hospital scene. It does push too many buttons with me. It's a good analysis, and I can see how someone else would like it, but I don't. Ah well. guz: Lissa, I don't know you, but I am guessing that the situations you were in were different cases, and did not involve a person with a degenerative and/or terminal illness. If I am wrong on this, please correct me, and please, please forgive me. Let me pose a hypothetical question: if you had fallen in love with someone, and then discovered they had a terminal illness, what would you have done? Tonks is begging Remus to not let his condition stand in their way. Lissa: Well, that's what I was getting at with the "I've never tried to get a werewolf to date me" statement, but you expressed it much better in your other post. ;) See, it's not that I think you don't have a point. I don't object to the relationship of Tonks/Remus... I just don't like the way it was carried out. The problems I have with the hospital scene aren't so much problems of "Tonks is too immature" (because it's not like Sirius was Mr. Maturity here) or the age gap (which is workable) or any of the normal reasons. It's simply I think that it was badly written and Tonks DID bring the subject up at the worst possible time. Were drastic measures called for? Possibly. But I don't think JKR carried it out in an effective way- at least, not for me. Remus is so private and he'd just lost Dumbledore... I was just cringing through that entire scene. How would I have written it differently is probably the better question, and I'll send you the answer when I'm done the fic ;) guz: I admit, I loved that Lupin's former head-of-house, McGonagall gets on him. It's like, "Look Remus, even your former life-advisor is telling you you're being silly!" I wonder what she told him during his fifth year career-counseling session? That must have been a sad conversation. Lissa: It must have been. ::sniff:: And like I said, my issue with McG's intrusion was I've read too many bad fanfics. Not a valid criticism, if that's my reasoning ;) guz: Again, difference of interpretation. I took this as a ray of light in a time of darkness. Everything is definitely not going to be great for Lupin nor Tonks after this, but I think they will find comfort in each other. I can't imagine (and I hope to never have the experience) of living through a war where there's a very good chance I wouldn't be alive the next day. Lissa: See, I can see that interpretation... when I look at it outside of the writing we were presented in Half-Blood Prince. When you- or more accurately, when I- look at what we WERE given, I don't see the layers and depths that my mind does add later. I see a very badly written romance that requires a lot of reader construction to make it palatable. I can do it, but it just doesn't work for me in the text. Lissa: >Well, everyone is, but the difference with Remus is he has a >specific enemy- and one he knows far, far too well. guz: Hmm... interesting interpretation here. I didn't perceive Greyback as specific threat to Remus. He specializes in children, and Remus was already his victim. Lissa: Well, here's the thing: Greyback is going to be a specific threat to Remus as soon as he finds out (which he did at the tower) that Remus is not really on Voldemort's side. Remus hasn't been spying so much on Voldemort- he's been spying on GREYBACK. By the end of the book, between Snape and Remus's presence at the Tower, the Remus-is-a-spy info should be directly in Greyback's hands. (Sorry, but even if you believe Snape is good, I don't think he'd mind seeing Remus dead. I think part of the reason Sirius's body was never found is that it's not healthy for children to see someone dancing on a grave. Even if Snape was lying through his teeth in Chapter 2, his gratitude to Bellatrix was real.) So Remus- specifically- is now Greyback's enemy as an adult. Not only has he been spying, he's been trying to turn Greyback's community away from him. Two big strikes, and I'm willing to bet that Remus has "offended" Greyback. And while Greyback specializes in children, he had no problems attempting to eat Bill Weasley, who's older than Tonks. So I'm sure if Greyback was ticked off enough and his enemy didn't have kids, he could easily make an exception and go for his girlfriend/whatever instead. guz: Exactly-- if anyone can understand making sacrifices for love, it's Andromeda Tonks. And she's Sirius's favorite cousin-- are you telling me she wouldn't be happy that her daughter is with Sirius's best friend? I wonder if Andromeda and Remus know each other? I would love to meet Tonks' parents in the 7th book, but unfortunately, I know it would never end up as more than an cameo appearance. Lissa: Actually, I am saying she might not be happy that her daughter is with Sirius's best friend- Sirius's best friend carries a LOT of issues. She might accept it, but... well, if I had a daughter who fell in love with a man who was HIV positive, I would be accepting, but it wouldn't be what I want for her and yeah, there would be some arguments about it before I capitulated. guz: Oh man, please let me know when you post the fic-- I'd love to read it! And the fact that two people aren't madly in love doesn't necessarily contradict the idea of marriage. In many cultures, the idea is that you marry first, and then learn/grow to love each other. Lissa: I'll definitely let you know. And while it doesn't contradict the idea of marriage, and I'll concede it could happen in the future, they both seem to be from a culture were love comes first, then marriage. Phew! Long post! Lissa From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 13:53:22 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:53:22 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts questions--who will be the leader of the OOTP In-Reply-To: <193.45507aa5.3028777d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136927 Susan wrote: Who will be the DADA teacher? Who will be the leader of the Order of the Phoenix? vmonte: I've been thinking of Arthur Weasley's character lately. I think that this everyday man, who enjoys the simple things in life, who is underestimated and looked down upon by Lucius Malfoy and the ministry, is going to become the new Order leader. Yes, I know, wishful thinking you say. Have you ever noticed that the most secure people often tend to be understated? They never feel the need to boast or brag, and they often enjoy the simple things in life. I see Arthur as this kind of man (Dumbledore was also this kind of man). Arthur is a very interesting man. We know that he is the exact opposite of Lucius Malfoy--a biggoted, cruel, and hateful person. We also know that Arthur has raised his children to be respectful of Muggles. We have also seen him go after the twins when he believed they were behaving improperly--when they played the prank against Dudley, as well of other stories relating to the outrageous things the twins have done to Ron in particular. It is obvious when we hear the children defending Muggles (I have heard Ginny, Fred, George, and Ron stand up for them) that they are learning the proper lessons from their father. They have a belief in what is right (from dad), and have learned unconditional love (from their mother). Arthur is a very brave man--in an understated way. I love that he took Harry to his hearing. I love that he risks his life for Harry and for the Order even if it puts him and his family in danger. This is a very brave family. They all are strong in their conviction for what is right. He has taught his children well. Not once have I seen Ron back away from helping Harry (even with his fear of spiders he still went into the forest). I think that the Weasley family is a very important family! I would like to see Arthur step into Dumbledore's role as Order leader. I think that this man has been underestimated (even by fans) because he is poor, and because he allows Molly to be herself. He loves Molly, he gets her! He doesn't have to prove to anyone that he wears the pants in the family--because he does. Percy's comment that his dad 'has no ambition,' just saddens me because Percy just doesn't get it. I think that Arthur has his priorities straight if you ask me. I secretly hope that Arthur (King Arthur?) is the heir of Gryffindor. My feeling is that Dumbledore comes from the same family line. I think that this family is going to kick ass in the next book. Weasley is our King! Vivian From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 14:00:12 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:00:12 -0000 Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136928 major snip, because I have only a slight addition to the conversation: Del: > As for the attack, it took place in the Ministry, at night. Percy > might have wondered what ever his father was doing, sneaking at night in the Ministry... > I always got the impression that the Order is a secret society. I > can't remember Percy actually mentioning the Order's name. And Percy > left before the other Weasleys entered the Order. > Susan wrote: > "He hasn't acknowledge that Umbridge was vicious and abusive to the > children...it wasn't just cutting Harry's hand...she SENT DEMENTORS TO > SUCK OUT HIS SOUL...she wasn't worried that his cousin might also have > his soul sucked out!...She did the Cruciatus Curse....(supposed to be > a life time sentence in Azkaban..so much for wizard justice) in front > of witnesses.... She illegally gave him veritasserum...she was going > to have Filch flog Fred and George! But Percy thought she was a really > delightful woman..." hg: I think from this side of the story, it's pretty clear to US that Umbridge isn't delightful but FOUL. Percy, however, has been out of the loop. First off, he likely DOESN'T know about the Order; second, since he wasn't at Hogwarts when all this Umbridge business took place, he has no idea that Umbridge wanted Filch to flog his brothers or that Umbridge tortured Harry etc. And he certainly wouldn't know that Umbridge sent the Dementors after Harry. Fudge didn't. Everything looks distorted from Percy's perspective. hg. From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Mon Aug 8 14:13:34 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:13:34 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > I've always been struck by the big deal JKR makes of Snape appearing > in the Foe Glass. First Harry sees DD, Snape and McGonagall in the > glass, and then the DD and McG move further into the room and Snape > remains reflected in the Foe Glass alone. -oiboyz I was, too wondering about the Foe glass and what is suggested. My idea was now that DD was standing in front of the Foe glass, perhaps, over Fake!Moody, his enemies were reflected and Snape was in the glass, but I think I proved myself wrong. I don't have my book in front of me for exact quotes, but earlier in the book, Fake!Moody says that he really only knows he is in immediate trouble when he sees "the whites of their eyes" in the foe glass...so seeing an enemy clearly in the foe glass seems to suggest that you are in immediate danger from them. Later, when DD, McGonagall, and Snape come in, they are reflected because they are an immediate danger to Fake!Moody. Upon rereading, I think McGonagall and DD's reflections were still in the glass, along with Snape's when Snape stared into the glass -- I do not think it was only his reflection, he just took notice of his own for some reason (maybe he doesn't look in the mirror much?). I think this because later in this chapter it says that DD, McGonagall, and Snape's reflections were still visible in the glass and this is after Snape looked at it, which suggests to me that their reflections had continued to be in the glass the whole time. I am not sure that the Foe glass really tells us that much about Snape as it could just indicate that, at that time, he was a threat to Fake! Moody. Cheryl From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 14:37:08 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:37:08 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts questions/OoP questions In-Reply-To: <193.45507aa5.3028777d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin at a... wrote: > > > > Will Hogwarts remain open? > > If yes, > > Will Harry, Ron or Hermione go back even for a while? > > Who will be Head Boy and Head Girl? (Neville and Luna!) > > Who will be the Headmistress/Headmaster? > > Will Ginny be a prefect? (Since she won't be of age, she won't have a choice > about going back to school). > > Who will be the DADA teacher? > > Who will be the leader of the Order of the Phoenix? > > Susan > > Valky: Good Questions Susan, I'd love to have a go actually. Will Hogwarts remain open? It will open, but nt in the grand manner of previous years, I think. I imagine that Hogwarts will run skeletally in the background during the book and perhaps be visited later in the book also. I fully expect the book to end with a renewed Hogwarts but before that, even if it does open, we'll see it only briefly I guess. Harry Ron and Hermione, won't go back for lessons. BIG sacrifice from Hermione that one, hey :D They'll go to Hogwarts for something though, I haven't decided what I think it is yet. Who will be Head Boy and Girl... I think maybe Hogwarts won't stand on ceremony in Book Seven, There might not even be a Sorting, I think. MacG will keep the helm for the time being, unless the Ministry objects, which might happen if Umbridge can help it. In the renewed Hogwarts that I expect to see at the end of Book Seven, I predict a *young* Headmaster by the name of Professor Weasley will take the coveted seat. The one who is especially good at Arithmancy ;D There will be prefects for safety reasons, I presume, and if MacG is the Headmistress and Sluggy is still around Ginny will be appointed. I don't expect that a good DADA teacher will be found for Hogwarts in Book Seven, though the DA might find a new following. Ohh creepy thought, what if Voldemort gets the DADA position.. brrrrr It could happen if Umbridge takes over again. THe Order of the Phoenix will always be lead by Dumbledore. I don't see him being replaced. Though I do see Arthur Weasley having a leadership role in Book seven so I guess I see *the Order* being replaced by Dumbledore's Army and Harry will put Arthur in the drivers seat.. Valky From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 8 14:41:06 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:41:06 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136931 "oiboyz"wrote: > > I've always been struck by the big deal JKR makes of Snape appearing > > in the Foe Glass. First Harry sees DD, Snape and McGonagall in the > > glass, and then the DD and McG move further into the room and Snape > > remains reflected in the Foe Glass alone. Cheryl: Upon rereading, I think McGonagall and DD's reflections > were still in the glass, along with Snape's when Snape stared into the glass -- I do not think it was only his reflection, he just took > notice of his own for some reason (maybe he doesn't look in the mirror much?). Potioncat: chapter35 of GoF. Yes, the three faces are always there. Harry sees foggy shapes in the Foe-Glass which become sharper, however Harry doesn't actually see who it is until the three come in. DD goes to C!M, McG goes to Harry. Snape comes in, looking at the Foe- Glass. DD sends both McG and Snape on errends. When they return, we're told the three faces are still glaring, although the actual individuals were all doing something else. Snape is recorded as looking at the Foe-Glass the one time. "Snape followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass, wehre his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." Much has been made of that one look over the years. I'm not sure what it means. But I wonder what would happen if LV decided to get a Foe- Glass? From s_ings at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 15:21:22 2005 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:21:22 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Reminder to "Play Nice" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136933 Rylly Elf gathers the rest of the List Elves around the Main list, "Look at that, it's kind of scary!" "What?" "Oh my goodness!" "We better say something" "Yes, quickly, before it, it... explodes!" "Now, now, calm down. All we need to do remind them to play nice," says Rylly Elf. Yes, that's right fellow list members, we're asking you to *play nice*. Remember that each of us reads the text differently. Please respect that not everyone sees canon in the same way or takes the same things from it. We are each entitled to our opinions. When stating something that *is* opinion, please make it clear that you are doing so. Use of things like 'IMO', 'as I see it', 'I think', will help your fellow list members understand that you are stating opinion and not fact. When debating with other list members, remember to address the issues at hand without the use disparaging or disrepectful remarks. And it's never okay to make personal remarks about the other list member's opinions, no matter how much you disagree with them! "Think that will work?" "I think so," says Rylly Elf, "These are Harry Potter fans. They almost always end up seeing a thread through to the finish without hurting anyone." "What? You mean there *won't* be bloodshed?" "Of course not!" "Thank goodness. It's a huge list, I wouldn't want to be the one to have clean it up in the end." Trusting there will be no bloodshed, Rylly Elf for the Admin Team From prep0strus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 15:27:19 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:27:19 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Magic (+ unschooled wizards) In-Reply-To: <00a001c59a6b$466d3ef0$27c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > CathyD now: > Being just in the middle of a re-read of OotP, Hagrid is still *not* allowed to do magic in the open. He says so when he's telling the Trio about his trip to find the Giants. "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic an' we knew the Ministry'd be lookin' fer a reason ter run us in." (pg 377 Can Ed) > This is a good point - I was under the impression that Hagrid still couldn't do magic, even though he was cleared of the 'crime' that kept Dumbledore from hiring him has a professor. The reason seemed to be that he didn't finish school - and there have been discussions relating to underage wizards... but what about the wizards who don't go to school? JKR has said that not all wizarding kids accept the invitation to Hogwarts. Our famous example is maligned Stan... so what really are the rules regarding doing magic when you are a wizard, are of age, but didn't complete school? I can't imagine that all wizards who don't go to school are simply not allowed to do magic of any kind. And yet... then why can't Hagrid simply get a new wand, take some night classes, and do magic out in the open? ~Prep0strus From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 10:13:04 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:13:04 -0000 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136935 Lynda first wrote: >And Guz: I think you may be right about Lupin being a metaphor for >an HIV infected person. And Susan replied: > But of course the metaphor of him as a person with AIDS would also > imply strongly that he is a gay man. And now guz: Susan, I hope I am not stepping out of bounds here, but I believe in Real Life, it is a dangerous assumption that it's mostly gay men who are infected with HIV. Surely you are not claiming that the millions of infected people in Africa right now are all gay men? Anyway, if we keep the metaphor in canon, Remus *was* infected by someone of his own gender, Greyback. Greyback intentionally infected Remus when he was a child, as revenge on his father. And, with many people interpreting Greyback as a metaphor for a child molestor, I am in no way claiming that child molestors only molest their own gender, or that they are gay. I'm saying that I don't believe homosexuality has any relation to what we are presented in the canon story, nor the metaphor I was trying to explain. From nelliot at ozemail.com.au Mon Aug 8 13:27:42 2005 From: nelliot at ozemail.com.au (njelliot2003) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:27:42 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136936 "I don't think you should be an Auror, Harry," said Luna unexpectedly. Everybody looked at her. "The Aurors are part of the Rotfang Conspiracy, I thought everyone knew that. They're working from within to bring down the Ministry of Magic using a combination of Dark magic and gum disease." This line is funnier because of the timing, (Snape's getting up Harry's nose just before this). But I also found Harry's private response to Luna's remark touching. The quote above continues... Harry inhaled half his mead up his nose as he started to laugh. Really, it had been worth bringing Luna to the party just for this. As well as the laughs, HBP was enjoyable for me because of the number of times I 'felt moved' by what was going on, the best for me being DD's "I am with you Harry." Anyone else like to nominate scenes/events/plot developments that gave them a warm glow? njelliot 2003, who also got a laugh out of DD being introduced as Dunderbore. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 8 15:55:11 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:55:11 -0000 Subject: hepzibah and, zacharias In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136937 shagufta_naazpk2000 wrote: > Do you think there is a possibility that Hepzibah Smith is related > to Zacharias? He's in Hufflepuff after all and she was a distant > descendent of Helga Hufflpuff, so maybe the whole family gets sorted > into that house? And if so....does it have any bearing on the plot? > will Zachrias find the horcrux? Or will he have a clue to where it > can be found? Aussie:- Also mentioned in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134260 was the time line that Hepzibah's 50th death anniversay may be coming up next book. All her family were wanting to inherit it, so they would have been on the look out for the 1000 year old family heirloom for the last 50 years. From tamaraburuma at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 13:38:30 2005 From: tamaraburuma at yahoo.com (tamaraburuma) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:38:30 -0000 Subject: Putting words in other posters' mouth / canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136938 Del replies: > 1. Show me where to find the factual HappyBoyfriend!Harry. I believe this was the thing this entire discussion started about, so I have tried to return to that discussion. I don't know what the best place is to post my answer, so forgive me if this isn't. I am a great fan of the H/G ship, and I think JKR wrote about it in a very nice way. I saw that many people don't feel the same about this, and wanted canon to support my view that the ship was shown properly in HBP. I read a lot of messages about this, and many of them made me doubt. I know I liked the reationship, but based on what? So I decided to take the book again and write down everything that could possibly be a clue about the ship. Now, before I go analyze all the canon about this, there are a few remarks that might help people to understand my view. 1. I haven't written often on this group, so I am sorry if I make a mistake about the way I do it. Also, I apologize for any mistakes in my English, but it isn't my mother language. 2. I use some arguments I have already read somewhere, but I have forgotten by who. So I apologize for using these arguments again, but I wanted to make something of an overview. 3. I am only 19 years old and the 2-years relationship I have now is my first, so maybe I am still a bit too romantic about stuff. 4. Since most people seem to agree that the H/G ship was coming, I have only reread the chapters since their first kiss (25- 30) I would like to hear comments from others on this. Chaper 25: 1. " something that was making him happier than he could remember being for a very long time." - This clearly says something about Harry's feelings. There is much less about Ginny's feelings, but since Harry is the main character, I don't find that so surprising. You don't read a lot about how Ron and Hermione think or feel either; just that what Harry sees. (see 4, 5, 10) 2. " said Ginny, as she sat on the common-room floor, leaning against Harry's legs and reading the Daily Prophet." - I like moments like this the most. When I am close to my boyfriend, but doing something for myself. It makes me feel extremely comfortable. It just becomes natural to be together, instead of something weird (like with Cho). I think it shows us that Ginny is really comfortable around Harry, and clearly states that she likes him, more than just as a friend. At least, I would never sit like that with just a friend. 3. "Harry and Ginny's time together becoming increasingly restricted." - There had to happen so much in this book, I think JKR wanted to give a reason with this to why there wasn't more about the two of them. Their ship is important to make Harry more `real' and maybe even to show us his age and character, but it isn't the most important plot, so space had to be provided for other storylines. 4. " reliving a particularly happy hour he had spent down by the lake with Ginny at lunch-time." - Again, about Harry, but this one and all the other ones about Harry give me the idea that at least for him this relation was important and special. ( see 1, 5, 10) 5. " told him off for distracting Ginny when she ought to be working hard." - they do spend time together. ( See also 1, 4, 10) 6. " share it between yourselves and Ginny too. Say goodbye to her from me." - I noticed that, aside from his best friends, Ginny had to get it as well, but not the other DA members. So clearly, Ginny has moved up from being just a friend, to being a special friend. Now, my boyfriend happened to be one of my best friends as well. But I can see why some people see this as proof that Ginny is nothing more than his best friends. I think it doesn't necessarily have to show that H/G ship is deeper than a very close friendship. We need other proof for that. It does however show IMO that their relationship has evolved into one at least as close as the one with Ron and Hermione, in a much shorter time. (See 7, 9) Chapter 27: 7. "Had Ron's, Hermione's and Ginny's luck run out by now?" - See 6. Chapter 29: 8. " a much smaller and warmer hand had enclosed his and was pulling him upwards. He obeyed its pressure without really thinking about it. Only as he walked blindly back through the crowd did he realise, from a trace of flowery scent on the air, that it was Ginny who was leading him back into the castle." - I found this a significant scene for several reasons. From Harry's point of view; he does not let himself be let away by Hagrid, one of the first characters he became good friends with (even before Hermione). However, he let himself be moved by Ginny, almost unconsciously. Clearly, his trust in her had already become so big, that he followed her lead when he felt very bad. To me, that shows a very deep relation. >From Ginny's point of view; All the others go to the hospital wing, but she goes to find Harry. Now, we don't know why Ron and Hermione didn't come with her (they weren't in bed, so physically it would have been possible for them) Perhaps McGonagall would only allow one person to go look for him, but why would she sent Ginny, who Harry has only been seeing for a couple of weeks, instead of Ron or Hermione, who have been his friend for years? (In CoS) She did get Harry and Ron specifically because Hermione was wounded, so she does acknowledge their friendship as a very close one) I think Ginny must have chosen to do so, and therefore perhaps Ron and Hermione weren't allowed to go with her. But then Ginny rather went to look for Harry than stay with her very wounded brother; she chooses her boyfriend over her family. That must mean she cares very much about Harry, and indeed loves him deeply. This was for me perhaps the most important evidence that the relation was important to both of them, and indeed a very deep one as well. Chapter 30: 9. "Harry, Ron Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together." - See 6. 10. "And hour by hour, he put off saying the thing that he new he must say, doing what he knew was the right thing to do, because it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort." - This is an example of a complain I have been reading a lot. The romance is too much described as some kind of epic romance, with a hero, who knows he must choose the world over his girl, and a girl, who waits patiently for her hero to return. Now, I can see why people don't like that, but as has been stated before, this is the way the books are. Harry is an old-fashioned hero, who has to save the world, even though this means giving everything else up. So, as long as the romance is properly described, even if it is a hero's romance, it still would be a good written romance by JKR, since it would fit with the rest of the books. (And of course, I love that kind of stuff J) So I can see that you wouldn't like it, but it says nothing about JKR's writing. (See 18, 19, 20, 21, 24, 26, 27) This part shows again that for Harry, this relation is very important (his best source of comfort). (See 1, 4, 5,) 11. "`Ugly, though,' he added hastily, as Ginny raised her eyebrows, and she let out a reluctant giggle." - According to someone, this was a bad sign, since Harry felt like not being able to say what he thinks. According to me, this is perfectly normal behaviour for a couple. First of all, Harry's most important lesson from the fiasco-date with Cho was that he shouldn't make a (possible) girlfriend jealous. So, he realizes he must say something to make sure Ginny isn't jealous. Second, they have been dating for a short time only, so if I were Ginny, I would feel insecure if Harry said something nice about another girl! It's very nice of him to say something like this to make Ginny feel better, even if both know it wouldn't be necessarily probably. And thirdly, I know lots of couples who, even though they know it isn't necessarily, would always say something like this, as a kind of joke not to feel jealous. From Ginny's giggle, I make up that she knows she has nothing to worry about, and the whole thing is just a confirmation, a kind thing to say, and of course a compliment as it indicates that Harry does think Ginny is beautiful. It's just such a thing a couple would say to each other. 12. "She kissed Harry[ ], waved at the other two " - Okay, to everyone who thinks this is weird, you're absolutely right. Why don't they go somewhere privately to say goodnight? Why doesn't Harry say he hopes she will sleep well? This scene just seems wrong to me. 13. "A nudge in the ribs from Ginny." - According to some, this was strange, because it isn't very affectionate. But they are still teenagers, and to them (usJ) this would be an affective way to call the attention of a good friend. And during breakfast, I think your lover is usually more your best friend than your lover, so I see no reason why a happy couple couldn't do this to each other. It's also a good way to call someone's attention when you don't want to make a lot of noise, likt during the funeral. So yes, it might not be the most romantic way to caal your boyfriend's attention, but it doesn't prove their relation is not a very good one. (see 14, 15) 14. "In there, whispered Ginny in Harry's ear." - See 13 15. "Then Ginny nudged him again" - see 13 16. " he looked away from Ginny and the others." - Maybe this seems strange; looking away when you might need comfort, but as has been stated before, everyone grieves differently, and I know I would probably do the same. 17. "Ginny was no longer crying. She met Harry's gaze with the same, hard, blazing look that he had seen when she had hugged him after winning the Quidditch cup in his absence, and he knew that at that moment they understood each other perfectly, and that when he told her what he was going to do now, she would not say `be careful', or `don't do it', but accept his decision, because she would not have expected anything less of him." - As I said under no. 1, you only learn about Ginny's feelings through Harry's eyes. So I just have to take his word for it that they did understand each other perfectly. So I accept that, and then I think that understanding each other perfectly is very good evidence for a wonderful relationship. By the way, don't you just love it that Ginny lookes at the end of their relation the same as at their beginning? 18. "`Ginny, listen " he said very quietly [ ] I can't be involved with you any more. We've got to stop seeing each other. We can't be together.'" - See the first part of 10 19. "She said, with an oddly twisted smile, 'It's for some stupid, noble reason, isn't it?'" - See the first part of 10. So Ginny is the girl, waiting for her knight, understanding perfectly that the Hero has to go. You can hate it or like it, but it does go with the rest of the story. 20. "It's been like like something out of someone else's life, these last few weeks with you,' said Harry. `But I can't we can't I've got things to do alone now.'" - See 10 21. "She did not cry, she simply looked at him." - This might be strange to us, but in a fairytale, it would make sense. Why cry if you know your hero is going to do what he has to do? And it is a fairytale, after all. 22. "`Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to. He's already used you as bait once, and that was just because you're my best friend's sister. Think how much danger you'll be in if we keep this up. He'll know, he'll find out. He'll try and get to me through you.'" - According to some, this wasn't a very valid argument, since Ginny would still be in danger. But Harry might truly believe Voldemort would not know about their bond (they haven't been together for that long, after all). More importantly, though, he needs all the time he has to fight Voldemort, and just can't have anyone around who might wish some of his time (and he would not be able to resist Ginny). However, saying she might be in danger sounds like a much better excuse than saying I don't have time for this. And is breaking up not the most common moment to use excuses? 23. "`What if I don't care?' said Ginny fiercely." - Wow, she must really like him, if she doesn't mind facing Voldemort for him! 24. "`I care,'said harry, `How dop you think I'd feel if this was your funeral and it was my fault ' She looked away from him, over the lake." - Okay, very epic, very romantic, very nice! (see 10) 25. "`I never really gave up on you,' she said. `Not really. I always hoped Hermione told me to get on with life, maybe go out with some other people, relax a bit around you, because I never used to be able to talk if you were in the room, remember? And she thought you might take a bit more notice if I was a bit more ? myself.'" - According to some, this proves that Ginny doesn't like Harry for who he is, but because he is famous. Now, I know a lot of girls who kept having a crush on someone for years, especially if the guys didn't want them. So this does seem very teenage like behaviour to me. But that would only work, if the guy really is very nice, and not just famous. So yeah, maybe Ginny liked Harry at first because of something else then who he is, but that doesn't mean she doesn't like him now for who he is. I am convinced their relation is a very good one, especially because of no. 2, 8 and 17. They would never be able to have such a good relation if Ginny didn't like Harry because of who he is. Also, when in OoP everyone avoided harry because the thought he was a lunatic, Ginny still spoke with him and was his friend. That can't have been because he was famous, so why would she have returned to that reason in book 6? It might have started as the reason for her to have a crush on him, but it can't be the reason she still likes him (maybe even more now!) 26. "`Smart girl, that Hermione,'said Harry, trying to smile. `I just wish I'd asked you sooner. We could've had ages months years maybe ' `But you've been too busy saving the wizarding world,' said Ginny, half-laughing. `Well I can't say I'm surprised. I knew this would happen in the end. I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort. Maybe that's why I like you so much.'" - Again, very fairytale like, but it shows again that Harry at least loves and needs Ginny very much. And Ginny actually says here that she likes Harry a lot, something that indeed doesn't happen too often in HBP. (See 10) 27. "Harry could not bear to hear these things, nor did he think his resolution would hold if he remained sitting beside her." - So yes, as a Hero, he must leave her, but he really doesn't want to. Isn't that sweet! My conclusion; I understand that people would have liked a bit more signs of this romance in the story. And perhaps a little bit less like a fairytale. But JKR has given us enough proof for the romance to be a realistic and deep one. So two thumbs up for the H/G SHIP!! Tamara From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 16:17:49 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:17:49 -0000 Subject: hepzibah and, zacharias In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136939 > shagufta_naazpk2000 wrote: > > Do you think there is a possibility that Hepzibah Smith is related > > to Zacharias? > > Aussie:- > Also mentioned in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134260 was the > time line that Hepzibah's 50th death anniversay may be coming up next > book. All her family were wanting to inherit it, so they would have > been on the look out for the 1000 year old family heirloom for the > last 50 years. hg: I also think they're related. I don't think the timeline has her death-date as accurate. I think it was 1960, if you use Dumbledore's start-date as headmaster as 1970. I also think she's the "Fat Lady" in the portrait leading to the Griffindor common room. hg. From georgy_grl at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 8 07:41:20 2005 From: georgy_grl at yahoo.com.au (georgy_grl) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:41:20 -0000 Subject: R.A.B. & Missing Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136940 In OotP, JKR refers to a "Heavy locket which none of them could open" in the chapter titled: "The Nole and Most Ancient House of Black. Late in HBP, a fake horcrux is discovered, and the note inside the horcrux is signed R.A.B. R.A.B seems to have known Voldemort, very well, as only the Death Eaters (and occaisionally Dobby) refer to Voldemort as "The Dard Lord", and the note begins with: "To The Dark Lord". I just wondered: what is Sirius' brother, Regalus' middle name, and couldn't JKR have described the locket more fully, or does anyone think that would have given away clues. Georgy Granger From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 16:39:52 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:39:52 -0000 Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136941 "hermionegallo" Wrote: > he [Percy] certainly wouldn't know > that Umbridge sent the Dementors after Harry If Percy didn't know at the time it must be common knowledge now in the ministry that Umbridge sent the Dementors after Harry, she admitted it in front of about a dozen people, and yet she still works there and Percy does too so he must be OK with it. Trying to send Harry to Azkaban without a scrap of evidence he did anything wrong and a lots of evidence he actually saved his cousin's life is evil; so is trying to break up Ron and Harry's friendship; so is the way he treated his injured father; and so is the sort of person who would find Umbridge "delightful". I'm not saying he had any great desire to see Harry dead but he wouldn't mind much if he was. He wouldn't mind sending Harry to Azkaban for just defending himself either if he thought it would advance his career. And when the Dementors were dragging the boy who saved his sister's life away to suffer a hideous fate I have no doubt Percy would just smile at Fudge and say "very good minister". Eggplant From jenn_ivory at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 22:57:17 2005 From: jenn_ivory at yahoo.com (jenn_ivory) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:57:17 -0000 Subject: What is wrong with shipping debates? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136942 Mystery, humor, character relationships are some of the aspects which bring all of us here to HPFGU to analyze this lovely series. Personally, I feel that everyone has different reasons for reading HP. I am big on character relationships within a plot driven story. In other words, I want to have a plot but not without understanding the character`s reasons. If you enjoy the action/adventure part of the series and you feel the "important stuff" is Snape `s actions or horcurxes's (sp?) locations, then debate it. We all know there are threads everywhere about Snape's motives or that DD isn't really dead. We seem to debate that calmly. Shipping, on the other hand, seems to be a sore point with people. I like debates on shipping. I enjoy the shipping aspects of the book. I enjoy the theories. I don't enjoy people criticizing readers for trying to understand the reasons for the character's actions. HP is not a romance but romance is apart of the development of the characters so why can't it be debated. I read posts indicating that Rowling has spoken so people should just stop debating the ships. I would say that canon right now has indicated that Snape is guilty and DD's is gone for good but I feeling that everyone would love to debate those two conclusions. In short, we all have different reasons for reading these books, no one`s reason isn't less "important" than another's. Second, these characters are fiction. So we aren't going to "hurt" Harry or the others by debating their actions or their choices. jenn_ivory ADMIN NOTE: If your reply no longer contributes to our understanding and interpretation of canon, please take this nevertheless interesting conversation to OTChatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ Thanks! From la_dy_di at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 13:50:31 2005 From: la_dy_di at yahoo.com (Diane C) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 06:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050808135031.85930.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136943 Just for arguments sake, what if Percy has been working as a spy for Dumbledore. We know the Ministry has been infiltrated by Voldemort supporters, and even if it that wasn't so, the Ministry is often at odds with Dumbledore's plans. Arthur Weasley has in the past been able to keep Dumbledore informed, but he has been so profoundly and openly pro-Muggle, that clearly Dumbledore needs someone in the Ministry who isn't so pro-Muggle, pro-Harry. Dumbledore's been portrayed as almost omniscient, but that could be due to an exceptional information network across the wizarding world. Percy has always been written as a goody two-shoes, but his break with the family seems particularly hard-line. That much of a break may be required in order to gain the trust of the people in the Ministry working against Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix. With Dumbledore gone, the Order may need Percy's information even more. Diane C From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 15:53:30 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:53:30 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136944 Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? If I were to have made a bunch of helpfull notes in my book I would have it in my private library. The only thing I can think of is that he left it there knowing that Harry wanted to take the class, but wouldn't be prepared for it. I'm not saying that Snape was trying to help Harry. Maybe he was trying to get him expelled. Snape knew that the book had dark spells in it that weren't explained. I'm betting that Snape also knew that Harry's curriosity would get the best of him. jmoses From ibchawz at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 16:33:44 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:33:44 -0000 Subject: Harrys new Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136945 eggplant107 wrote: > We learn in the new book that a person's Patronus can change if they > have suffered a deep emotional shock, like watching your Headmaster > be murdered by a teacher. I'll bet Harry will develop a new Patronus > and I'll bet it's a Phoenix. That makes me wonder about something > else, what will happen to Fawkes? At the end of the book we found out that Tonks was depressed more because she loved Lupin and he did not return that love to her due to his "furry problem" rather than the death of Sirius. I do not believe that her new patronus was a dog. It was werewolf. Her Patronus changed because she wanted it to. I do not think Harry's Patronus will change from a stag. This is one thing that links him back to his father. I do agree that Fawkes will play an important role in book 7. Fawkes gave only 2 feathers for wands and Harry has one of these. Coincidence? I don't think so. ibchawz "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." From jhloux at att.net Mon Aug 8 16:39:42 2005 From: jhloux at att.net (Jon Loux) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:39:42 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136946 P. Alexis Nguyen wrote: > I find this entire conversation fascinating, especially since > people are approaching it so scientifically while JKR obviously > just didn't give it that much thought. (After all, this was the > woman who pulled out the timeturner deus ex machina in the first > place.) ..... Personally, I think that the best time travel stories don't change history. Instead, the act of time travel causes history to happen the way it does. The ambiguity of the story telling is that you don't see everything in one pass. You have to view it from two different angles to see that nothing has really changed. You can't change history. In other words, if you go back in time to prevent something from happening, you will actually cause that thing to happen. There is an old story about a time traveler who decided to go back in time and kill Hitler. He arrived at an important Nazi rally in the thirties and found if full of other time travelers, also there to kill Hitler. When Adolph came out and asked all these crazy people what they were doing there, they all said they were there to prevent him from becoming the greatest monster of the twentieth century, waging war and killing millions. He said that he would never do anything like that, how could they think such a thing, etc. Finally, one of the time travelers pulled out a gun and shot him dead. Satisfied, they all left except for the narrator who was curious to see what would happen next. Hitler's top generals came out, found him dead and said, "What will we do now? I know. We will bring out his double..." Jon. From imontero at iname.com Mon Aug 8 16:41:22 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:41:22 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136947 Marcela wrote: I give you example of this: Hermione's canary attack. While it looked like a funny scene at first -especially because it happened to Ron-, when I read the book a second time this scene hit me like a bullet! On this second time, when I already I knew that Hr/R ship was about to sail in next book, that canary scene striked me as too violent for my taste. I wondered: how can any couple come up to terms or feel good with each other after one of them has so purposedly "hurt" the other? So who is bringing violence or abuse to HP world? Susan wrote: I don't like this scene either, but I don't think it's characterisic of Hermione. I disagree with JKR putting this scene in... Do I think it makes Hermione an abuser? No. I think it's an isolated incident. Now Luna: I have to agree that the Canary attack scene, although intended to be funny, was violent. Any attack, under any circumstances is violent. But his scene is not an example of abusive behaviour. Then again, violence is part of human behaviour. Most of us would have violent thoughts (at least!) if placed in Hermione situation: having the person that you are in-love with (or at least have strong romantic interest in) snogging all around you with another person and, to top it all, laughing at you. Our Hermione did try to control herself by leaving the classroom before Harry and Ron did. Obviously, Hermione was way too angry and hurt to have Ron anywhere around her. Bad luck, the guys enter the room where she was trying to isolate herself. Then, boom! You have the canary attack. I liked this scene because it showed us Hermione's human side. Hermione is not this perfect girl that some people have come to idealise She's not (and never has been) a saint, the same goes for all the characters in the books. None of them is wholly good or bad, this is the beauty of Jo's characters. We have Harry, who is not violent in nature and who'd rather avoid violence but we do see him punching Malfoy in every inch of his body he could reach This scene is even more violent than the canary scene. Now, the canary scene is an isolated event with very well defined circumstances. Although ideally, we should always control ourselves when we are angry, in this particular scene it was obviously more than what Hermione could chew. Jo was also intending to show us Hermione's jealousy and was useful to help advance the relationships plot. Taking into account that as the intra trio relationship has never been abusive and that neither Harry, Ron nor Hermione are abusive people, this behaviour will not become a pattern. We also have to take into account the evolution of R/Hr relationship. They bicker, but they profoundly care about each other. They seem to enjoy spending time together and sometimes they provoke each other. There is a clear tension there but both of them are too stubborn to acknowledge their feelings for each other. The bickering becomes stronger as the tension becomes stronger. I do see how H/Hers see their bickering as being offensive because it, sometimes (not all the time, this instances are not the rule), becomes offensive in both sides. They needed to go through an emotional journey to get to the point where they would stand in front of each other and be honest about their feelings. This already started to happen in HBP and we do see how the bickering almost disappears in the second half of HBP and they show more physical affection and much more consideration for each other. I think this discussion deals more with how much tolerant each one of us is regarding bickering rather than with R/Her relationship itself. As I see it, they have had their difficulties, but nothing bad enough as to represent a definitive breach between them. Who said that relationships were easy? Jo is clearly showing us how difficult it could get but as long as there is love and two willing persons going for it (and Ron and Hermione are definitely going for it!), there is hope! All children books in traditional literature have a certain amount of violence. What are children going to think about this scene, well, they have their parents to explain to them that this is wrong. Luna From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 8 17:20:29 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:20:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Muggle girlfriend for a Twin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136948 aussie: I'm not the one for SHIPPING (I suggested Harry would be most romantic with his broom in HBP) but ... How would it be if JKR showed us an example of more connection between WW and muggles by Fred (or was it George) dating that girl from the village. He has been seeing her since Christmas, so may be at the point of the BIG step .... ... inviting her to be his date at the grand wedding of quarter- veela Fleur and quarter-werewolf Bill. Then if JKR wants to answer some of her fundamentalist religious commentators, the new in-laws can come up with excuses JKR can answer in the Weasly house. But what would her future hold in a WW war that is spilling over into Muggle England? Would she work in Diagon Alley and be insulted? Would she be kidnapped to sway the twins? Would she be introduced to an little known, but supportive group of muggles / squibs that know the WW through marriage and help each other? Would she introduce new product lines to the shop? - capsicum-spray wands, personal howler alarms (that chase attackers while screaming), and Rubber Ducks (that don't do anything but baffle wizarding folk) Such a character could become the new focal hero of book 8! ... ... No, JKR would kill her off before then ... -aussie- From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 8 17:40:43 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:40:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005c01c59c40$4e72bef0$7524f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 136949 -----Original Message----- From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com [mailto:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of guzuguzu Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:13 AM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) Lynda first wrote: >And Guz: I think you may be right about Lupin being a metaphor for >an HIV infected person. Sherry now: I've always thought Remus was meant to represent disability in general. Not necessarily HIV or any particular disability, but just disability. The prejudice and distrust he suffers are common for a person with a disability. The inability to find employment because people are afraid of you if you have a disability. I've dealt with every reaction Remus has had and though I haven't chosen to isolate myself, some disabled people do. Many people still consider those of us with disabilities to be monsters of a sort, scary and not quite human or not quite as good as able bodied people. Some even advocate for our deaths for the good of society. it's why I'm particularly partial to Remus and would like to see him happy and learning to live with and accept his condition in the end, not necessarily to do anything heroic, but just learning to live with peace and some happiness. sherry From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon Aug 8 17:44:01 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:44:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why leave the book? Message-ID: <13d.18cdd7c7.3028f3e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136950 jmoses wrote: >Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? If I >were to have made a bunch of helpfull notes in my book I would have it >in my private library. Ray replies: I've thought about this as well. The only way it makes sense is that either Snape or Dumbledore (or both) intended that book to go to Harry. Does anyone think that brand new pages with an old binding can be mistaken for a texbook that has been sitting around for at least a generation? The only "accident" scenario would be that Snape kept his books on a shelf in either his classroom or his office (I seriously doubt Snape cooked his potions in his office, but you never know. When Slughorn, who strikes me as a fastidious type, took over the classroom, he tiok all the old, dusty books off the shelf, tossed them in the storage closet, and replaced them with neat new books (possibly the very same titles). It occurs to me that on occassion a teacher will assign an older textbook, even though it has been replaced by a different text, or contains information that is just plain wrong. Usually, this is a teacher who has been teaching for some time, and wants to continue teaching and assigning homework out of the book he's familiar with. Slughorn hasn't taught in who knows how long. Perhaps he taught from the text he was fimiliar with, planning to review the newer literature during the term. Or, if you accept the conspiricy theory of NEWT potions, Dumbledore "suggested" that he use that text for his class. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkscherme at adelphia.net Mon Aug 8 17:45:03 2005 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:45:03 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmoses22002" wrote: > Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? If I > were to have made a bunch of helpfull notes in my book I would have it > in my private library. The only thing I can think of is that he left > it there knowing that Harry wanted to take the class, but wouldn't be > prepared for it. I'm not saying that Snape was trying to help Harry. > Maybe he was trying to get him expelled. Snape knew that the book > had dark spells in it that weren't explained. I'm betting that Snape > also knew that Harry's curriosity would get the best of him. > > > jmoses Madeyesgal I doubt that Snape had any ulterior motive for leaving the book in the classroom. If it indeed belongs to him, he may have placed it in his classroom as a reference and forgot to remove it when he became DADA professor. It was purely chance that Harry received that particular book. It could have just as easily gone to Ron. Or, another hypothesis, Dumbledore could have told Harry that Snape wasn't going to be potions professor and Harry would have purchased a book for the class in advance. Snape had no control over how Harry was to gain possession of it, therefore, I don't believe that he intended for him to have it. IMO, Snape was genuinely shocked to learn that Harry knew the spell he used to attack Draco and realized that Harry had found the old book. Harry went to great lengths to disguise/hide his book and yet Snape didn't buy it. He knew differently. If Snape had actually engineered the circumstances for the book to go to Harry, I don't believe that he would made any reference to it, nor, punished Harry for lying about it. Kristen (who's still in mourning for DD) From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 8 17:50:03 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:50:03 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts questions/OoP questions In-Reply-To: <193.45507aa5.3028777d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136952 > Will Hogwarts remain open? The parents won't like to send their kids there if DE target the place. Either the headmaster / headmistress must be strong or there is an outcry to ban Harry from Hogwarts so as not to draw DE there. But to keep this as a 7 book series, YES, JKR will have to keep Hogwarts open and Harry takes a few private lessons to pass his NEWTS. > If yes, > > Will Harry, Ron or Hermione go back even for a while? The Room of Requirements and the Chamber of Secrets have too many possibilities for added story lines. So YES, they have to go back, even if it is for a short time. > Who will be Head Boy and Head Girl? (Neville and Luna!) Huh? ... they are in different years. ZACHARIAH (with secrets about the Hufflepuff goblet) for Head boy and LAVENDER (to get under Won- Won's skin) as Head Girl. > Who will be the Headmistress/Headmaster? hmmm, the only staff member not scared for his mortal life is Professor BINS - the ghost. Otherwise, an aged staff member. SLUGHORN (who taught 50 years ago) or McGONAGALL (who knew Neville's grandma failed Charms) > Will Ginny be a prefect? (Since she won't be of age, she won't > have a choice about going back to school). It would have to be someone we know - GINNY W or ROMILDA Vane > Who will be the DADA teacher? We have to see CHARLIE WEASLEY come back. Maybe DADA ... > Who will be the leader of the Order of the Phoenix? MAD-EYE MOODY. The natural and accepted leader when they picked up Harry in OOTP. -aussie- From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Mon Aug 8 17:54:00 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:54:00 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136953 > Potioncat: Snape is recorded as looking at the Foe-Glass the one time. "Snape > followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass, wehre his own face was still > visible, glaring into the room." > > Much has been made of that one look over the years. I'm not sure what > it means. But I wonder what would happen if LV decided to get a Foe- > Glass? Seems like the foe glass would be a dangerous object for a spy to have around, regardless of which side they were on. Wonder if Snape was thinking this, and if he's the one who cracked it (as we see it cracked in the ROR DA headquarters in OOTP). Cheryl From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 8 18:01:17 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:01:17 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136954 SSSusan: As I seem to be perpetually 200-300 posts behind, I realize this is a fairly dangerous thread to just drop down into, but I've read each post I can find in the thread. That said, I really wanted to respond to an early part of the discussion, in which... hermionegallo asked: > It seems to me that in Spinner's End Snape thinks he's > agreeing to kill Harry, that he was agreeing to the Vow because he > needed to know what the plan was. Do I need to re-read? SSSusan: That that was MY read of this scene, too. I think JKR wanted us readers to assume/wonder about whether it was Harry who was the target, and I've not yet encountered anything which has convinced me that Snape didn't think the very same thing, at first. Am I wrong about that? Is there strong evidence that Snape knew the exact task facing Draco? hermionegallo: > My question going in is this: When does Snape discover what > exactly he vowed to help Draco do (whom he vowed to help Draco > kill)? > > I have a feeling that he realizes it on the Tower, although > Dumbledore knew all along Draco's intended victim was him. > SSSusan: My *opinion* is that Snape didn't take long to figure out it was DD, though I've not got an opinion as to how/when exactly he ascertained this. Certainly he seems to understand it by the time of Draco's attempt w/ the poisoned wine?? Or am I assuming too much there as well? hg or others, is there a reason why you believe Snape didn't know *until* the Tower? Now, to bring this back to the issue of the row in the forest, I am intrigued by the possibilities put forth by Saraquel and Lupinlore: Saraquel: > IMO, what Snape wants out of, is having to put himself into > situations like the UV in order to spy for DD. (You see here I am > arguing an evil Snape on the side of good :-) ) Perhaps the `You > take too much for granted" remark is about just how far into life- > threatening danger Snape has to take himself in order to continue to > convince Voldemort that he isn't a double-agent, and that it can > only get more and more difficult and dangerous. Lupinlore: > Now, we have speculated long before this that Snape may have a > mission from Dumbledore to watch over Harry. Perhaps that is what he > doesn't want to do anymore? Certainly his feelings for Harry seem to > have been aggravated by the Occlumency incident, not to mention > their interactions in DADA. > Thus Snape is forced to continue his (to him) humiliating task of > watching over the (to him) arrogant and irresponsible Harry Potter. SSSusan: Both of these are intriguing. I had considered a variation of what Saraquel has suggested -- the Snape's just TIRED of doing all this dangerous stuff -- though I was convinced it was partly because he didn't like doing stuff that was not only dangerous to himself but to DD. So I guess I'd not go so far as to call that arguing for an evil Snape on the side of good? I'll admit I'd *never* thought of the possiblity Bob raised -- that Snape wanted out of the job of protecting Harry. Hmmm. Could he be NON-ESE!Snape and ask for this release? Or would his request for release from this duty necessarily mean he's ESE? Siriusly Snapey Susan, doing a whole lot of head-scratching these days From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Aug 8 18:02:24 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:02:24 -0000 Subject: Foe glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136955 oiboyz: > But even if Snape is on DD's side at the end of GoF, he could have > defected back to LV by the end of HBP. So I can't take the Foe Glass > as proof of Snape's goodness, but I prefer to believe that he *will* > be shown in Book 7 to be a loyal Order spy. :) houyhnhnm: >From Goblet of Fire, Am. Ed.: ************ Moody's wand was still pointing directly at Harry's heart. Over his shoulder, foggy shapes were moving in the Foe-Glass on the wall. (GoF, AE, p. 677) The foggy shapes in the Foe-Glass were sharpening, had become more distinct. Harry could see the outlines of three people over Moody's shoulder, moving closer and closer. (p. 678) Moody was thrown backward onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody's face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Profesor Snape, and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass. (p. 679) Snape followed him , looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room. (p. 679) Dumbledore got up, bent over the man on the floor, and pulled him into a sitting position against the wall beneath the Foe-Glass, in which the reflections of Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall were still glaring down upon them all. (p. 683) ************* I think Snape's appearance in the Foe-Glass can be taken at face (:-)) value. At the time of the third task (before Dumbledore sends him back to Voldemort), Snape really is on the side of the Order. Later, however, someone breaks the Foe-Glass and stashes it in the Room of Requirement (if it is indeed the same one Harry sees). It could be that Snape, having returned to Voldemort and having become confused as to "where [his] loyalties lie" breaks the Foe-Glass and hides it to prevent it from incriminating him later on. Nevertheless, I am with you in believing that Snape remains loyal to the Order. There is abundant evidence of that without the Foe-Glass. The lies we *know* he tells Bellatrix, his revelation of the dark mark to Fudge, his alerting the Order to TeamHarry's presence at the Ministry, his behavior during the Occlumency lessons, his behavior toward Malfoy all during the sixth year, his sparing of Harry after the scene on the tower. (Who performed the freezing charm on Greyback? We aren't told and that is a big question mark in my mind.) When they are out on the grounds and Snape is effortlessly deflecting Harry's spells, if Harry indeed "belongs to the Dark Lord", why not kidnap him at that point and deliver him to Voldemort? I doubt we will see a Good Snape emerge in book 7, though. Snape is not good; he is a deeply flawed human being, a study in the workings of karma--the binding effect of action. I believe Snape genuinely turned against Voldemort and gave his loyalty to Dumbledore. He never comes to understand the character flaws which led him to the dark side in the first place, however, and his role for the Order maintains and exaccerbates those flaws. The scene with Tonks at the gates, which confused me on first reading, I have come to regard as the most illustrative of Snape's character in all the six books. Imagine it from his perspective. Having, no doubt, already marked Harry's absence from the feast, he intercepts an indistinct patronus, unrecognizable as belonging to any member of the Order, claiming to come from Tonks, and delivering the message, "I've got Harry outside the gates." In alarm and increasing anger, he hastens to the gates, only to discover an apparently genuine but lovelorn Tonks. He is furious. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily--weak people ...." So he "corrects" her just as he does so often with Harry. And Snape's "corrections" cut to the bone. He has no tolerance for other people's weaknesses because he has none for his own. He has no compassion for others' feelings because he despises feelings in himself. From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Aug 8 18:06:16 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:06:16 -0000 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "guzuguzu" wrote: > Lynda first wrote: > > >And Guz: I think you may be right about Lupin being a metaphor for > >an HIV infected person. > > And Susan replied: > > > But of course the metaphor of him as a person with AIDS would also > > imply strongly that he is a gay man. > > And now guz: > > Susan, I hope I am not stepping out of bounds here, but I believe in > Real Life, it is a dangerous assumption that it's mostly gay men who > are infected with HIV. Surely you are not claiming that the millions > of infected people in Africa right now are all gay men? > > Anyway, if we keep the metaphor in canon, Remus *was* infected by > someone of his own gender, Greyback. Greyback intentionally infected > Remus when he was a child, as revenge on his father. And, with many > people interpreting Greyback as a metaphor for a child molestor, I > am in no way claiming that child molestors only molest their own > gender, or that they are gay. I'm saying that I don't believe > homosexuality has any relation to what we are presented in the canon > story, nor the metaphor I was trying to explain. Thanks for giving me the opportunity for clarification. AIDS/HIV is indeed an epidemic in Africa amongst all kinds of folks. But here in the U.S. we did have quite an epidemic of gay men who died of HIV/AIDS. I spent time with two friends who moved away from San Francisco because all of their gay male friends died. The gay male community has mobilized and organized to promote safe sex and to reduce fatalities amongst their ranks (successfully). But for a long time, gay men were a high risk group. So in my very humble opinion, I think that Remus being gay and Remus having a disease connected to HIV are both powerful metaphors and both possible. I think there are clues in canon to support a Remus/Sirius ship, CERTAINLY as many as there are to support Harry and Luna, for example. When I have time, I'll post some of them. And of course, few people believe the antiquated and thoroughly discredited myth that gay people molest children....pflag.org is one site that has all kinds of such information. Susan McGee From jjjjjulie at aol.com Mon Aug 8 19:04:51 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:04:51 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachaelmcadams" wrote: > So, building on Dumbledore's theory that Voldemort wanted to make > a horcrux out of something from each of Hogwarts' founders, I think > the horcrux that we don't know is from Ravenclaw. [deletia] > So I definitely think that the fifth horcrux is something of > Ravenclaw's, which goes along with something JKR said which was > along the lines of "Ravenclaw will have it's day in the next book". I think that the missing item is Ravenclaw's wand. Here's how my train got to this station: 1. The Magus card of the Tarot deck symbolizes the Magician's dominion over the 4 elements. 2. JKR has said that the 4 houses correspond to the 4 elements: -------------- JKR: Probably. I hear you. It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and balance, that you had four necessary components and by integrating them you would make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, as we know. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview3.html --------------- 3. The symbols of these elements are: cup, pentacle, rod, and sword. 4. If Voldemort is setting himself up for dominion over all of the elements, indeed, over all the world, and because JKR has used the Tarot card deck in the series--most notably in Book 6 with The Lightning Struck Tower--I think it may be a fruitful avenue of speculation to think about Voldemort as the Magus and therefore looking for the 4 symbolic items. 5. The 4 symbolic items already correspond to 3 known items which come from the founders: the pentacle (locket--Slytherin), the cup (Hufflepuff) and the sword(Gryffindor), 2 of which we know are Horcruxes and one of which--the sword--we know is not a Horcrux and is not going to be one. 6. Harry knows, because Dumbledore has more or less explictly told him, that he should be looking for a Ravenclaw item. 7. The "missing item" from the Tarot card is the wand. 8. There is an old wand given a place of honor in Ollivander's shop. 9. Ollivander is missing and the shop is empty. 10. Wands are powerful magical objects. 11. Dumbledore has told Harry, and therefore us, that the 6 Hocrux are: ---------------- "So," said Harry, "the diary's gone, the ring's gone. The cup, the locket, and the snake are still intact, and you think there might be a Horcrux that was once Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's?" "An admirably succinct and accurate summary, yes," said Dumbledore, bowing his head. --------------- > Rachael > who thinks that one of the horcruxes is hidden in the Room of > Requirement and can be found when you're desperately looking for a > place to hide something. I agree. Except I also doubt that Voldemort would risk hiding anything at Hogwarts because of the difficulty he may have into the castle to retrieve it. I'm still puzzling this out, obviously. jujube From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 8 19:14:46 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:14:46 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136959 > SSSusan: > Am I wrong about that? Is there strong evidence that Snape knew the exact task facing Draco? Potioncat: I think it's ambiguous, but I think JKR doesn't want the readers to know what the task is. Remember the Marauders' Map discussion between Lupin and Snape? It appeared neither of them knew who the makers were, but in fact, they both did. It was us who was confused. If Snape indeed used Legilimency on Narcissa, he knew the task. He might have known the task before hand as well. > SSSusan: > Both of these are intriguing. I had considered a variation of what > Saraquel has suggested -- the Snape's just TIRED of doing all this > dangerous stuff -- though I was convinced it was partly because he > didn't like doing stuff that was not only dangerous to himself but to > DD. Potioncat: First off, we don't know. Second, what I think it is that we don't know, is that Snape is arguing against DD going after the next horcrux. DD expects that Snape can patch him up if he's hurt but Snape feels DD is taking too much for granted. Each encounter with a horcrux leaves DD weaker. Or DD may feel that he has lots of time before Draco is at the "seems to fail" point but Snape feels DD is taking too much for granted.In this case Snape is trying to keep the vow going as long as possible so that he doesn't have to kill or be killed. Let's see, there's over 1,000 of us, right? That means over 1,000 theories can be perfectly valid. From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 8 19:17:36 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:17:36 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmoses22002" > wrote: > > Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? If I > > were to have made a bunch of helpfull notes in my book I would have > it > > in my private library. The only thing I can think of is that he left > > it there knowing that Harry wanted to take the class, but wouldn't be > > prepared for it. I'm not saying that Snape was trying to help Harry. > > Maybe he was trying to get him expelled. Snape knew that the book > > had dark spells in it that weren't explained. I'm betting that Snape > > also knew that Harry's curriosity would get the best of him. > > > > > > jmoses > > Madeyesgal > > I doubt that Snape had any ulterior motive for leaving the book in the > classroom. If it indeed belongs to him, he may have placed it in his > classroom as a reference and forgot to remove it when he became DADA > professor. does Snape ever give you the impression that he forgets ANYTHING? Or that he would need a reference guide from oh 20 years ago? Nope. I think it was a plant. >It was purely chance that Harry received that particular > book. It could have just as easily gone to Ron. true. Or it could have been bewitched to go to Harry - after all, this is a wizarding world. > > IMO, Snape was genuinely shocked to learn that Harry knew the spell he > used to attack Draco and realized that Harry had found the old book. I think Snape was shocked that Harry USED the spell, IMHO. > Harry went to great lengths to disguise/hide his book and yet Snape > didn't buy it. He knew differently. If Snape had actually engineered > the circumstances for the book to go to Harry, I don't believe that he > would made any reference to it, nor, punished Harry for lying about it. but Harry's punishment was for using that spell and it was a weak punishment - he didn't get expelled. For harming a student in that manner, he should have been kicked out. Yet Snape didn't yank Harry's sorry butt into DD's office, did he? He was very calm about it(for Snape) colebiancardi > From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 19:18:06 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:18:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136961 Susan McGee wrote: ...Edited... Gay men were a high risk group. So in my very humble opinion, I think that Remus being gay and Remus having a disease connected to HIV are both powerful metaphors and both possible. I have to disagree with you there, I do believe Remus has some disability, but I don't think it's AIDS or any other disease per se, I'm thinking more like Handicapped people in wheelchairs, they are "normal" but they just have a little problem: they can't walk, Remus' problem is that at full moon he turns into a werewolf. IMO of course. > > I think there are clues in canon to support a Remus/Sirius ship, > CERTAINLY as many as there are to support Harry and Luna, for example. > When I have time, I'll post some of them. Juli: Please do so!! For a while I've been asking Remus/Surius shippers for some canon to backup their theory since I don't see even the slightest hint, and HBP convinced me even more that they are Not a couple. There was a whole thread on that a while ago, it starts in message # 131180 Juli > > From kevin_mcgoff at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 18:54:18 2005 From: kevin_mcgoff at yahoo.com (another_potter_fan) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:54:18 -0000 Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: <20050808135031.85930.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136962 Diane C wrote: > ...what if Percy has been working as a spy for Dumbledore....> Another_Potter_Fan: Diane C, I just had a thought as I was reading your post - if Percy is TRULY as ambitious and willing to make such a severe break with his family, then wouldn't the Sorting Hat have put him in Slytherin? I'll stop the post there and let others (with more in-depth knowledge of Percy/Sorting Hat/DD'etc.) fight it out. Thanks for the opportunity. APF From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 19:41:09 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:41:09 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136963 > Marcela wrote: > I give you example of this: Hermione's canary attack. While it > looked like a funny scene at first -especially because it > happened to Ron-, when I read the book a second time this scene hit > me like a bullet > > Susan wrote: > I don't like this scene either, but I don't think it's characterisic > of Hermione. I disagree with JKR putting this scene in... > Do I think it makes Hermione an abuser? No. I think it's an isolated > incident. > > > Now Luna: > I have to agree that the Canary attack scene, although intended to be > funny, was violent. Any attack, under any circumstances is violent. > But his scene is not an example of abusive behaviour. > Casmir: I didn't find this scene abusive or funny. I did find it important. I agree with Luna that it shows that Hermione is human. IMO it externally shows the pain Hermione is feeling inside. Also, I don't see it anymore "violent" then many of the jinxes performed on each other throughout the book. It's also a reminder of Ron's dependance on Hermione to save his arse, as I doubt he knew how to get rid of the birds himself. I mean really, is it so violent to do that if a capable wizard is able to vanish the birds immediately? oh, yeah...Ron depends on Hermione to do that stuff for him. I do NOT feel the scene was a mistake, either. I did some pretty drastic (not that I think birds pecking and diving was drastic, but know some of you do) things as a teenager that I would never think of doing now. WE cannot compare their behavior with that of ADULTS. Hermione may come across older than she is, but she is still a child. This is a mistake that happens in real life, too. Too much maturity or knowledge is expected from younger ones simply because they handle themselves in a more mature fashion then their contemporaries. Personally, I would have never been pleased with the reality of Hermione's character if I had never seen this human side of her... it is something I can definately relate to. (I can relate to the book smart stuff, but not the complete lack of fraility or hurt sensibilites, which this scene demonstrates). Casmir From pfsch at gmx.de Mon Aug 8 19:53:35 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Schuster) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:53:35 +0200 Subject: Not-Quite Werewolf!Bill In-Reply-To: <1123518907.3804.17602.m35@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123518907.3804.17602.m35@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <42F7B83F.4070100@gmx.de> No: HPFGUIDX 136964 Ginger wrote: > Now that he has been attacked and has some werewolf tendancies (raw > meat), will he still be allowed to work at Gringott's? As long as the Gringott's chef agrees to serve raw meat... ;) > But what of the WW? They are pretty steeped in their prejudices, and > DU has passed those anti-werewolf laws. How strict are those laws? > Do they apply only to full-blown werewolves? Or to any who have been > attacked by one? I can see DU making them as strict as possible just > to be mean. Will they matter to the Goblins? Do they even apply to > the Goblins? And if so, do the Goblins care? ;) Since Bill was the first case of someone attacked by a not-so-quite-werewolf, I doubt that the law included that case. You could try an analogy of course (I don't know if that's correct in anglo-american law terminology). For that you need a "hole" in the law which there is as stated above. And it is an unintentional hole. Then the "ratio", the meaning of the law has to fit to the other case (i.e. which it doesn't include). That's the question. Werewolves are forbidden to work (as far as I understand that anti-werewolf-act that I don't know) because of the danger to others which they cannot control in certain times. But Bill won't reach that state. So IMHO he won't be forbidden to work. On the other hand we must presume that his bide (just like Greyback's bide in his untransformed state) can harm others. So a Dolores Umbridge might conclude otherwise. -- Goodbite setrok (http://www.peterfelixschuster.de) From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 19:54:33 2005 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050808195434.77513.qmail@web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136965 *lots of snips* --- colebiancardi wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" > > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "jmoses22002" > > > wrote: >> > I doubt that Snape had any ulterior motive for > leaving the book in > the > > classroom. > does Snape ever give you the impression that he > forgets ANYTHING? Or > that he would need a reference guide from oh 20 > years ago? Nope. I > think it was a plant. > > > >It was purely chance that Harry received that > particular > > book. It could have just as easily gone to Ron. > > > > > IMO, Snape was genuinely shocked to learn that > Harry knew the spell > he > > used to attack Draco and realized that Harry had > found the old > book. > > I think Snape was shocked that Harry USED the spell, > IMHO. > Mezu: I agree that Snape did not know about Harry having the book and was truly shocked that Harry used some of those spells. I also beleive that Snape did not leave the book behind. I got the impression when reading the end that the book was stolen from Snape around the time he left school. I simply knew from the beginning that it was Snape's book. My theory, Slughorn planted the book in Harry's hands so he had a good reason to invite him to the Slug Club and to help him in a class he may not have been prepared. I mean, if the book was left, what kind of teacher would not go through all left behind materials in a new classroom? It was a used textbook, not a school issue. It should have been looked into for safety (hidden spells) or simply to check for additional writings that would allow a student to cheat (hidden test questions/answers). Also, if this text had been sitting for decades, why had no other student looked into it? Additionally, if the students kept the books open to help prepare potions, why didn't Slughorn check an open book? Answer: He already knew what it contained. "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 8 20:07:51 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:07:51 -0400 Subject: R.A.B. & Missing Horcrux Message-ID: <003201c59c54$dbc05c90$7ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136967 Georgy Granger >>R.A.B seems to have known Voldemort, very well, as only the Death Eaters (and occaisionally Dobby) refer to Voldemort as "The Dard Lord", and the note begins with: "To The Dark Lord". CathyD now: Having nearly completed a complete re-read of the whole series, there are lots of people who call Voldemort *The Dark Lord*. I wish I had taken the time to list them all. One of which, though, is Ginny Weasley in her Valentine to Harry. Another is Trelawney in her two *prophecies*. What I find more interesting are the times someone calls him *Voldemort* when I dont think they *should*. Fake!Moody/Crouch calls him Voldemort once as did Peter Pettigrew in POA. I found that very odd (Snape is soooo good about never saying Voldemort) and have wondered, for a long time obviously, if it is a printing error or something else. Georgy Granger >>I just wondered: what is Sirius' brother, Regalus' middle name, and couldn't JKR have described the locket more fully, or does anyone think that would have given away clues. CathyD again: We haven't been told Regulus's middle name although they had an Uncle Alphard who left Sirius a load of money. The locket is described as a 'heavy gold locket' in the "House of Gaunt" chapter of HBP, when Marvolo is nearly strangling Merope to show Bob Ogden the locket. There was no mention there of it having the snake engraving on it, which shows up in the Hepzibah Smith memory. So a locket is described once as having a snake engraved on it, once as a heavy locket no one could open and once as a heavy gold locket. I don't think we're talking about three different lockets....the one Merope had around her neck and the one Hepzibah Smith had are definitely the same...the question is, is the locket that was at Grimmauld place the same one as well? Only two years to wait until we find out for sure! ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 18:54:57 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:54:57 -0000 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136968 Susan replied: >Thanks for giving me the opportunity for clarification. AIDS/HIV is >indeed an epidemic in Africa amongst all kinds of folks. But here >in the U.S. we did have quite an epidemic of gay men who died of >HIV/AIDS. I spent time with two friends who moved away from San >Francisco because all of their gay male friends died.
snipped> So in my very humble opinion, I think that Remus being gay >and Remus having a disease connected to HIV are both powerful >metaphors and both possible. Thank you for clarifiying your meaning. I am very sorry to have misinterpreted it. Again, it comes down to the personal experiences we bring to the table when we interpret the books. I am sorry to hear about your friends. I am not in the U.S. (I'm in Japan, actually), so perhaps that colored my assumptions. Let me clarify my meaning. I am in no way saying that my Lupin/HIV+ metaphor is the only correct one. Elsewhere on the thread, Sherry has posted that she interprets Lupin as a metaphor for a disabled person, and identifies with the prejudice he experiences. I think that's a very valid interpretation. If someone wants to interpret metaphorically and/or identify with Lupin as a homosexual, I welcome that, especially if they find inspiration in it. What I do have a problem with, is someone who interprets Lupin as a metaphor for a homosexual using that interpretation to argue that *canon* Lupin would not be interested in a relationship with a female (i.e. Tonks). Canon Lupin is not a homosexual. He might be bisexual, but his relationship with Tonks as seen at the end of HBP is not a lie, nor a beard. And I am quite sure that JKR did not intend it to be seen as one. Susan: >I think there are clues in canon to support a Remus/Sirius ship, >CERTAINLY as many as there are to support Harry and Luna, for >example. When I have time, I'll post some of them. Up thread, I explain my views on this arguement. You are welcome to post clues and subtext for Remus/Sirius, but my stance remains that these are no longer relevant to the canon story as presented at the end of HBP. And as for the comparison to the Harry/Luna ship, well, that ship didn't sail in HBP either. Of course, unlike Sirius, Luna is still alive, so I'd be more willing to believe that possible in the next book. guz From kathryn-jones at comcast.net Mon Aug 8 20:27:07 2005 From: kathryn-jones at comcast.net (jmjklj) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:27:07 -0000 Subject: When did Dumbledore use the Patronus as a signal? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136969 When Tonks sends her Patronus as a signal in Ch. 8 of HBP, here is Harry's response: "Was that a Patronus?" asked Harry, who had seen Dumbledore send messages like this. My question is: Exactly when did we see this? I know on JKR's site in the FAQ poll she answered that we had already seen this in GOF. I don't recall any scene where that was used. Could someone refresh my memory? Thanks in advance. -Kathryn From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 8 20:33:39 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:33:39 -0400 Subject: Why leave the book? Message-ID: <004401c59c58$76418e30$7ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 136970 jmoses >>Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? If I were to have made a bunch of helpfull notes in my book I would have it in my private library. The only thing I can think of is that he left it there knowing that Harry wanted to take the class, but wouldn't be prepared for it. I'm not saying that Snape was trying to help Harry. Maybe he was trying to get him expelled. Snape knew that the book had dark spells in it that weren't explained. I'm betting that Snape also knew that Harry's curriosity would get the best of him. CathyD now: Well, I've been asking myself the same question. LIke you I would never have let the book out of my own hands/office. All I can think of is that he's obviously made another copy of the book - maybe one with clearer, easier to read notes - for himself. Even thinking that, I can't believe he left the other one just laying around where any student could gain access to it. Snape had pretty much given up on getting Harry expelled by GOF (in fact, did he threaten expulsion in GOF? He threatened veritaserum once and told him he would *pay* but he never said expel). Snape only gave Harry detention for nearly murdering Malfoy. That was grounds for expulsion if anything was. Was Snape trying to help Harry? I don't know, but Harry finally learned Potions from Snape, didn't he? (I think you can tell this is a big plot-hole to me...I just can't get around it. I will *not* believe in a Puppetmaster!Dumbledore...as Kreacher said "won't won't won't"...and that DD fixed all this so Harry would end up with Snape's old potions textbook.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 20:46:43 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:46:43 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > Casmir: > > I didn't find this scene abusive or funny. phoenixgod2000: I personally do find the scene at least bullying, if not truly abusive the way an adult would use the term. Ron was covering his eyes with his hands for gods sake, hands that were later covered by injuries. That certainly tells me that his eyes could have been seriously damaged by the birds which is a bad thing. Would you be as blase about the event if it had been Ron sending birds after Hermione? I don't think anyone on this list would be. There are levels of violence that people will accept from women towards men that just aren't acceptable in reverse. Another good example of that phenomena is the Ginny ramming Zack Smith scene. Imagine if it had been Draco ramming Lee Jordan or worse yet, Draco ramming a commentating female character. It would a far different scene, but since Ginny did it, it must be funny. > I agree with Luna that it shows that Hermione is human. IMO it > externally shows the pain Hermione is feeling inside. Also, I don't > see it anymore "violent" then many of the jinxes performed on each > other throughout the book. I'm not sure that what bothers people is the act itself. Yes it shows that Hermione is just a teenage girl and not pedestal!girl that people like to think of her as. What bothers me, and I think other people, was the lack of punishment. The other jinxes that that hurled by students are usually punished by a teacher but, IIRC, Hermione wasn't punished by anyone. I think that shows a tacit agreement by the author which says that sort of action acceptable. Ginny as well is rarely punished by anyone either. Contrast that to Harry, who practically get punished for every altercation he gets in, usually with a punishment far greater than the crime. It's also a reminder of Ron's dependance > on Hermione to save his arse, as I doubt he knew how to get rid of > the birds himself. I mean really, is it so violent to do that if a > capable wizard is able to vanish the birds immediately? oh, > yeah...Ron depends on Hermione to do that stuff for him. Thats an unfair attack against Ron. She attacked him with magically conjured constructs, something we haven't seen any other wizard do. It certainly seems like upper level magic to me, and it wouldn't be the first time Hermione went beyond her year when it came to experimenting with spells. Just because Ron couldn't dispel the birds doesn't mean he is incompetent. They could just be hard to get rid of. phoenixgod2000 From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 8 20:53:06 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:53:06 -0000 Subject: When did Dumbledore use the Patronus as a signal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmjklj" wrote: > When Tonks sends her Patronus as a signal in Ch. 8 of HBP, here is > Harry's response: "Was that a Patronus?" asked Harry, who had seen > Dumbledore send messages like this. -Kathryn: > My question is: Exactly when did we see this? I know on JKR's site in > the FAQ poll she answered that we had already seen this in GOF. I > don't recall any scene where that was used. Could someone refresh my > memory? Geoff: Refreshment coming up..... 'Harry and Dumbledore hurried forwards. Krum was sprawled on the Forest floor. He seemed to be unconscious. There was no sign at all of Mr. Crouch. Dumbledore bent over Krum and gently lifted one of his eyelids. "Stunned," he said softly. His half-moon glasses glittered in the wandlight as he peered around at the surrounding trees. "Should I go and get someone?" said Harry. "Madam Pomfrey?" "No," said Dumbledore swiftly, "Stay here." He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird.' (GOF "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" p.486 UK edition) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 20:55:45 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:55:45 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmoses22002" wrote: > Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? If I > were to have made a bunch of helpfull notes in my book I would have it in my private library. Tonks: It has been years since Snape was a teen and while the spells in the book are rather advanced for a student, Snape knows them by heart and they are rather elementary to him now. It is an old book, and he has forgotten about it. Maybe he expected to resume the Potions Masters position next year, after all everyone knows that the DADA position is jinxed, so he left some of his old stuff in that classroom cupboard. He never expected Slug to tell a student to look for and use a book there. Who in there right mind would loan a book to a student!! Snape would never do that, and it would never occur to him that Slug would. Snape thought it was safe and he half forgot about it too. I would have kept it somewhere else, but I am the semental type. To Snape it is just an old book. I think that he just forgot that it was there. Tonks_op From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 8 21:11:07 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:11:07 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: <004401c59c58$76418e30$7ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136974 > CathyD now: Snape had pretty much given up on getting Harry expelled by GOF (in fact, did he threaten expulsion in GOF? He threatened veritaserum once and told him he would *pay* but he never said expel). Snape only gave Harry detention for nearly murdering Malfoy. That was grounds for expulsion if anything was. Was Snape trying to help Harry? I don't know, but Harry finally learned Potions from Snape, didn't he? (I think you can tell this is a big plot-hole to me...I just can't get around it. Potioncat: I may be repeating myself...but at my age, it's to be expected and to a certain extent, tolerated. Yeah, even when there was a headmistress who would have gladly expelled Harry, Snape made no attempt at it. I think it was always intended as bluster. Snape lost his book years ago; or Snape's book was stolen years ago. If the book has been in the Potions cabinet in the class room all this time, it's because someone quietly put it back without Snape knowing. He's the type of teacher who wouldn't offer an old book to a student to use. It's also possible that Slughorn has has this book all these years in a box somewhere and didn't know what he had. Was it slipped to Harry on purpose? Well, possibly Slughorn did, if he had some reason...perhaps to make Harry look like a better student than he had been. Was it dumb luck? Harry has a lot of that! I don't think Snape had anything to do with it, and I wouldn't think DD would want that sort of Dark Magic floating around either. Snape is surprised that Harry is doing well in Potions. But he is furious that Harry knows the sectumsempra spell. He demands to know where Harry learned it. Later he is angry that his spells are being used against him. Clearly, Snape never intended any student to get ahold of the book. He also says that James used his spells. If the spells are non verbal, how did James learn them? I think someone found/took the book and used the spells, perhaps sharing them with his best friend. The biggest hole in my idea, is that James knew the Levicorpus spell in 5th year. That seems too early for the book to go missing. I think it is very interesting that Hermione who always trusts Snape does not trust the HBP; and the boys who always loathe Snape admire the HBP. Someone else brought that up in another thread, but I thought I'd repeat it....comes with age, you know. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 21:30:40 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not-Quite Werewolf!Bill In-Reply-To: <42F7B83F.4070100@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050808213040.85972.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136975 Peter Schuster wrote: ...edited... Werewolves are forbidden to work (as far as I understand that anti-werewolf-act that I don't know) because of the danger to others which they cannot control in certain times. But Bill won't reach that state. So IMHO he won't be forbidden to work. Juli: I think you are mistaken, werewolves can work, I mean the law doesn't forbid it, it's just that nobody gives them work. Sirius in OoP, when he appears at the chimeney to talk to Harry, Harry starts complaining about Umbridge, then Sirius says "You should hear Remus talk about her", why? "She TRIED to pass an anti-werewolf law" I'm paraphrasing here from memory, but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rgillen33 at msn.com Mon Aug 8 20:16:00 2005 From: rgillen33 at msn.com (Rachel) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:16:00 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136976 > wrote: > > Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? rae_nd: Remember, these "Lender" books were not often used, since NEWT students generally know ahead of time what they will be taking and come prepared. Not to mention that if they have already had Snape as a teacher, they will be none too eager to have to borrow a book at any time. I don't imagine these books gotten much use in recent years. Snape may not even realize it's there. If Snape does know that his book is with the other extras, here's a hypothetical situation: A favorite student forgets his copy of Advanced Potions, trusts that he won't get in trouble (think Draco's unnoticed tardiness), asks to use an extra book, Snape slips his HBP copy to his favorite student with a smirk, this student has a spectacular potion-making day, thinks about holding onto this great book, but Snape collects it before class is over. Easy way to give a small reward to a favorite student. Once Snape got the DADA position, I would imagine that his old book is the last thing on his mind. Of course, upon seeing Sectumsempra used on Draco, he realized what has happened. Imagine how infuriating that would be for Snape, if indeed he had once used his HBP book as a special reward for his favorites. Just a thought. Kristen: > I doubt that Snape had any ulterior motive for leaving the book in the > classroom. If it indeed belongs to him, he may have placed it in his > classroom as a reference and forgot to remove it when he became DADA > professor. It was purely chance that Harry received that particular > book. It could have just as easily gone to Ron. rae_nd I think that the book ending up with Harry could be one of two things: pure coincidence, or Slughorn's doing. Having noticed that it had some helpful hints in it (teachers don't have time to look at every page of every spare book), Slughorn may have been glad for the chance to offer a little extra help to his Beloved Harry. rae_nd From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 21:34:43 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] When did Dumbledore use the Patronus as a signal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050808213444.45904.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136977 jmjklj wrote: When Tonks sends her Patronus as a signal in Ch. 8 of HBP, here is Harry's response: "Was that a Patronus?" asked Harry, who had seen Dumbledore send messages like this. My question is: Exactly when did we see this? Juli: It was before the Third task at the TWT, Krum and Harry are talking near the forest when they see Barty Crouch Sr acting like crazy, Harry goes to find Dumbledore, when they arrive, Viktor has been stupified and Crouch is missing. Dumbledore then calls for Hagrid using his patronus, we just see a silvery thing, like a bird. Then Hagrid arrives.... Juli Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 21:37:44 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:37:44 -0000 Subject: When did Dumbledore use the Patronus as a signal? In-Reply-To: <20050808213444.45904.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136978 Ooops, I missed somehow Geoff's message with the same explanation, SORRY :( Juli --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > jmjklj wrote: > When Tonks sends her Patronus as a signal in Ch. 8 of HBP, here is > Harry's response: "Was that a Patronus?" asked Harry, who had seen > Dumbledore send messages like this. > > My question is: Exactly when did we see this? > > Juli: It was before the Third task at the TWT, Krum and Harry are talking near the forest when they see Barty Crouch Sr acting like crazy, Harry goes to find Dumbledore, when they arrive, Viktor has been stupified and Crouch is missing. Dumbledore then calls for Hagrid using his patronus, we just see a silvery thing, like a bird. Then Hagrid arrives.... > > Juli > > > Juli > Aol: jlnbtr > Yahoo: jlnbtr > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 22:22:01 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:22:01 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136979 Casmir wrote (about the Canary attack scene): > > I didn't find this scene abusive or funny. I did find it important. > I agree with Luna that it shows that Hermione is human. IMO it externally shows the pain Hermione is feeling inside. Also, I don't see it anymore "violent" then many of the jinxes performed on each other throughout the book. It's also a reminder of Ron's dependance on Hermione to save his arse, as I doubt he knew how to get rid of the birds himself. I mean really, is it so violent to do that if a capable wizard is able to vanish the birds immediately? oh, yeah...Ron depends on Hermione to do that stuff for him. > > I do NOT feel the scene was a mistake, either. WE cannot compare their behavior with that of ADULTS. Hermione may come across older than she is, but she is still a child. This is a mistake that happens in real life, too. Too much maturity or knowledge is expected from younger ones simply because they handle themselves in a more mature fashion then their contemporaries. > > Personally, I would have never been pleased with the reality of Hermione's character if I had never seen this human side of her... it is something I can definately relate to. (I can relate to the book smart stuff, but not the complete lack of fraility or hurt sensibilites, which this scene demonstrates). **Marcela now: I don't know why Luna and you thought that it was an important scene to show us that Hermione is human... I mean, haven't we seen her crying many times? She's the character that is at the top in the "crying" ranking. She was the one that slapped Malfoy in PoA. She was the one with scratches all over her face after the First Task in GoF. She was the one almost knocked over Harry in a bear hug in OoTP. Shw was the one whose lower lip trembled and hugged Harry in PS/SS in the sixth task. And she was the one that locked herself up in the loo and cried all afternoon because Ron had hurt her feelings with a stupid comment. Those are just a few scenes that came to mind, I'm sure there are plenty more in the six books. All those show us that Hermione was a human being with all the emotional baggage that those come with, too. Also, this violent behaviour of Hermione's is not an isolate incident either. She has shown us many times that she can hurt people that bother her (or her friends): Rita, Marietta, Umbridge, Draco, Milicent (though her revenge sort of backfired), Snape, Lavender (bunny), to a certain extent Trelawny, etc. Nevertheless, while I said that the scene was a bit too violent for my taste, I can honestly understand her behaviour and I believe I explained that in my previous post. My problem comes with the fact that we're supposed to believe that after this scene and some mending of their friendship, Ron and Hermione can move on to a closer relationship. I still don't understand, and nobody that answered my post addressed this, how can those two be at an equal footing/level in their r'ship after this incident. Is it possible for a couple to have been physical violent/aggressive towards each other, to then cozy up and make up *and not* fall into aggression again? I'm afraid I'd respect my partner had I ever needed/wanted to slap him and/or had he ever slapped me. I have never been in such a relationship, so to me that scene by itself is "okay" as of to the status of their relationship, but not their post make up and move to a closer r'ship. That is still very puzzling behaviour to me, o.O. As for the canaries being a jinx and thusly a non-violent thing because they can be counter-jinxed, I still have my reservations to that. Ron was a "marked" man after that incident, and I wonder about the state of his ego, too. If we parallel this jinx to a slap on the face -which IMO sounds a reasonable substitute for this scene- I still see it as what it was: an vengeful and aggressive action. There was no remorse in Hermione's behaviour. Had she slapped/jinxed Ron and inmediately be shocked with herself, I could very well understand that she 'slipped' but that she was repentant of her actions. Can that happen between friends and still remain so, after some 'damage control' actions? Sure. Can a closer relationship start off after such scene? Well, we have Jo's word that it's possible. But I don't believe that it'd be a healthy start for one, especially when those two have had a rocky history with their friendship/interaction for six years now. BTW, I never compared their behaviour with adult ones. As a matter of fact, there are adults whom resort to that behaviour, too. It's up to how kids were raised that they would allow aggression in their lives, or not. I believe that it's connected with the aggressor's and/or victim's self-respects. Marcela From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 22:23:37 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:23:37 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136980 > >>vmonte: > > Draco made his choice to become a DE willingly, of his own free > will. He made a pact with the Devil and the Devil is not going to > let him off the hook so easy... > >>Alla: > > ...BUT the fact is that he took this asignment initially because > he wanted glory for himself as he tells his fellow Slytherins on > the train. > Betsy Hp: Did Draco freely choose to become Voldemort's assassin? This is important because by the morality of the books Draco's choice tells us a great deal about the make-up of his character and the direction he'll most likely be taking in book 7. Narcissa doesn't seem to think Draco had a choice. "That's why he's chosen Draco isn't it?" she persisted. "To punish Lucius?" (HBP scholastic p.33) According to Narcissa, a choice was made *by Voldemort* (the "he" in the above quote). And Bellatrix appears to agree with her sister. "The Dark Lord is granting him a great honor. And I will say this for Draco: He isn't shrinking away from his duty..." (ibid) The use of the words "granting" and "duty" certainly don't suggest choice on the part of the recipient. Also, a great deal is made of Draco's age. He is sixteen, still a child by WW custom. Both his mother and later Arthur Weasley make mention of that fact. "Harry, I doubt whether You-Know-Who would allow a sixteen year- old..." (135) Again, Arthur is using language ("allow") that suggests that even if Draco has been marked the choice was made by Voldemort, not Draco. Because Draco was too young to make the choice himself. Draco, himself, doesn't act like he's got a choice in the matter. "No one can help me," [...] "...and unless I do it soon...he say's he'll kill me..." (522) "I haven't got any options!" [...] "I've got to do it! He'll kill me! He'll kill my whole family!" [...] "I can help you, Draco." "No, you can't," said Malfoy, his wand hand shaking very badly indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." (591) So, to me anyway, it seems that there is a clear indication that Voldemort *took away* any ability to choose that Draco may have had. First, he picked an underaged child. Second, he threatened Draco's life and the lives of his family. Enter Dumbledore, who famously said in CoS: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." When Dumbledore is finally able to confront Draco, what does he do? He allows Draco time to make a choice. "I -- I've got a job to do" "Well, then you must get on with it, my dear boy," said Dumbledore softly. (585) Dumbledore gives Draco something Voldemort would never allow, a choice. And Draco... does nothing, which proves to Dumbledore something he must have suspected all along. "Draco, Draco, you are not a killer." "How do you know?" said Malfoy at once. (585) Interestingly enough, Draco doesn't seem sure that he's not a killer. It is Draco who brings up the near deaths of Katie and Ron by his actions. "You don't know what I'm capable of," said Malfoy more forcefully. "You don't know what I've done!" (585) Honestly, I think that when Dumbledore gives Draco a benediction of sorts, ("you are not a killer") the very fact that Draco then feels the need to confess ("but I've done things that don't bear that out!") speaks to Draco's remorse. If he hadn't cared about what he'd done to Katie or Ron I don't think he'd have thought to bring them up. Especially since, as Dumbledore points out, they were examples of some rather pathetic attempts on Draco's part. So Dumbledore again reminds Draco that he has a choice here. "Perhaps you ought to get on with the job alone," [...] "I have no wand at the moment...I cannot defend myself." (586) And again, Draco chooses not to kill Dumbledore. And so again, Dumbledore delivers his benediction. "I don't think you will kill me, Draco. Killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe..." (586) Dumbledore reaffirms that Draco is not a killer, he is in fact an innocent. Draco's choice has proven this. What's fasinating to me is that Draco (after a little lesson in proper word-choice) again asserts that he's a killer and again Dumbledore refutes it. "You care about me saying 'Mud-blood' when I'm about to kill you?" "Yes I do," said Dumbledore... "But as for being about to kill me, Draco, you have had several long minutes now, we are quite alone. I am more defenseless than you can have dreamed of finding me, and still you have not acted..." (589-590) That's three times Draco and Dumbledore have given a back and forth on Draco being a killer or not. Draco, with the guilt of Katie and Ron on his shoulders and the pressure of Voldemort's attempt to shape him into something he's apparently not, says he is a killer. Dumbledore gives Draco the chance to prove that he is and then assures Draco that he is showing himself to *not* be a killer. Then we have Draco telling Dumbledore that Voldemort has taken away Draco's ability to choose ("I've got no choice"). And Dumbledore *gives it back to him* along with a third and final benediction. "Come over the right side, Draco... you are not a killer..." (592) This is followed by that incredibly powerful exchange: "You're at my mercy...." "No, Draco," said Dumbledore quietly. "It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now." (592) And Draco, with the freedom to choose finally returned to him, lowers his wand. Even with the temptation of the four Death Eaters, who five times by my count try to turn Draco into a killer, Draco shows us (and Harry) who he truly is: he is not a killer; he is an innocent. > >>vmonte: > > I have a question for you. Have you ever seen Draco do anything > nice for anyone? Have you seen him show compassion or tolerance > for anyone other than those connected to the DEs in some way? > Betsy Hp: I would say not killing Dumbledore showed a great deal of compassion. And in a round about sort of way, keeping his friends out of his tangles with Voldemort showed a form of compassion too. Other than that, well, we've not really gotten a good look at Draco have we? There is something suggestive, IMO, in the fact that he's still well liked by the Slytherins even though the Malfoy name is looked down on by the WW and the Death Eaters alike. I think the true measure of Draco's worth will be found in book 7. Thanks to Dumbledore, Draco will finally be allowed to make the choices that will show us who he is. Based on his first major choice, I think Draco will turn out well. Betsy Hp From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 22:38:49 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:38:49 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was Re: Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136981 > >>Marianne S.: > > So, Percy is rising through the ranks at the Ministry as a yes-man. > > The twins are not yes-men, and their success largely seems to me > like a side effect of doing what they love. Their success is > causing them to be more responsible, and I am sure that they were > devastated by the fact that one of their products was used against > the Order... > Betsy Hp: I don't doubt that Percy is using his sucking up skills to raise through the ranks. Though the fact that he's still around after two of his bosses are gone suggests that he does have *some* practical skill as well. However, you are only assuming that the twins feel bad about the use of their products (and pranks) in the attack on Hogwarts. They've not expressed any remorse themselves. (Granted, they haven't had much time to, yet.) And I'd also point out that their success hasn't really made them responsible. They sold to Death Eaters. That's why I catagorize them as neutral. And that's why Ron feels that he needs to have a talk with them. (And yay Ron for *finally* feeling like he can stand up to the twins!) They didn't show responsiblity, they showed greed. > >>Marianne S.: > > However, I have felt (ever since GoF) that Percy is the one who is > at risk of turning away from love, making the wrong choices, and > being seduced by power. I fear that this aspiration for power > makes him more susceptible to temptation by the Dark Arts than his > brothers. Betsy Hp: I guess it's greed versus ambition, isn't it? On Percy's side, we do know he loves Ron. Running into the lake and the letter (Percy *was* trying to help there, IMO) showed a certain amount of compassion, IMO. The twins, however... Well, like I've said before, so many of their victims end up in the hospital wing and they only seem to show remorse if they get caught. Fred and George *do* love their family, I think. But sometimes they seem to get blinkered into only caring about what's good for Fred and George. As I've said, only JKR knows for sure. Betsy Hp From hambtty at triad.rr.com Mon Aug 8 22:40:25 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:40:25 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachel" wrote: > > > wrote: > > > Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? > > > rae_nd: > Remember, these "Lender" books were not often used, since NEWT > students generally know ahead of time what they will be taking and > come prepared. Not to mention that if they have already had Snape as > a teacher, they will be none too eager to have to borrow a book at any > time. I don't imagine these books gotten much use in recent years. > Snape may not even realize it's there. > > If Snape does know that his book is with the other extras, here's a > hypothetical situation: A favorite student forgets his copy of > Advanced Potions, trusts that he won't get in trouble (think Draco's > unnoticed tardiness), asks to use an extra book, Snape slips his HBP > copy to his favorite student with a smirk, this student has a > spectacular potion-making day, thinks about holding onto this great > book, but Snape collects it before class is over. Easy way to give a > small reward to a favorite student. > > Once Snape got the DADA position, I would imagine that his old book is > the last thing on his mind. Of course, upon seeing Sectumsempra used > on Draco, he realized what has happened. Imagine how infuriating that > would be for Snape, if indeed he had once used his HBP book as a > special reward for his favorites. Just a thought. > > > > Kristen: > > I doubt that Snape had any ulterior motive for leaving the book in the > > classroom. If it indeed belongs to him, he may have placed it in his > > classroom as a reference and forgot to remove it when he became DADA > > professor. It was purely chance that Harry received that particular > > book. It could have just as easily gone to Ron. > > > > rae_nd > I think that the book ending up with Harry could be one of two things: > pure coincidence, or Slughorn's doing. Having noticed that it had > some helpful hints in it (teachers don't have time to look at every > page of every spare book), Slughorn may have been glad for the chance > to offer a little extra help to his Beloved Harry. > > > rae_nd I'm sticking with DD "arranged" for Harry to get the book. It was his way of getting Harry to trust and to learn from Snape. The only way was to do it without either Snape or Harry knowing it. The last time he tried to get the two to work together- it didn't go well (understatement). DD's plan was to reveal the HBP's identity when the time was right. That plan never fully developed - the Tower tragedy ended it. DD knows when he collects Harry at the Dursley's that he is looking for a potions master. Harry tells DD in the broom shed that he is sure he won't be taking potions because of his grade. DD tells him not to count his O.W.L.S. before they are delivered. You know DD is has seen Harry's grades - he knows he did not make an O. So why didn't he tell Harry that Snape was not teaching potions and that an "A" would keep him on his path to become an Auror? Why? Because he didn't want Harry to purchase a N.E.W.T potions book. He wanted Harry to get the HBP's book - he arranged that with Slughorn. It was no mere coincidence. BG's HO From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 8 23:48:03 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:48:03 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > Did Draco freely choose to become Voldemort's assassin? This is > important because by the morality of the books Draco's choice tells > us a great deal about the make-up of his character and the direction > he'll most likely be taking in book 7. When we first see Draco on the train he shows great pride in his task. While some of it may be bravado and show off and mostly immaturity, I think he felt very honored by his choice. This fits well with Voldemort's ability to make his DE's feel very grateful and honored when given the most horrible and demeaning tasks... Malfoy later finds out that what seemed easy is not so at all. But his last action was a choice - run away with the DE's. He may not like his choice and likely will die for it either at the hand of the good side or at the hand of Voldemort (or his DE's), but he did stick with the DE's in the end. > Draco, himself, doesn't act like he's got a choice in the matter. > > "No one can help me," [...] "...and unless I do it soon...he say's > he'll kill me..." (522) But nowhere does Draco say "It's the wrong thing to do". He is scared and ashamed but equally ashamed of not measuring up to the Voldemort's standards as he is of not measuring up to Dumbledore's. > And Draco, with the freedom to choose finally returned to him, > lowers his wand. Lowers slightly, not all the way. This shows he is torn and hasn't made a choice. > Even with the temptation of the four Death Eaters, > who five times by my count try to turn Draco into a killer, Draco > shows us (and Harry) who he truly is: he is not a killer; he is an > innocent. No, he is incapable of making a decision. Yet. There is no evidence one way or another which way he'd have gone if given full time to consider. Draco is not a strong person morally, he wavers here. That is to his credit but just because Dumbledore thinks that he is not a killer (semantic since he nearly killed two people), does not make it so. Dumbledore can make mistakes due to his ever optimistic nature. Witness his misjudgement of Snape. > Betsy Hp: > I would say not killing Dumbledore showed a great deal of > compassion. Compassion? He realized that going through with it in cold blood is not as easy as it seems. It shows he is not completely lost, but there was no hint of compassion in his behaviour, only fear. > And in a round about sort of way, keeping his friends > out of his tangles with Voldemort showed a form of compassion too. Did he? He used Crabbe and Goyle as lookouts (and they did not seem to like it). He did not like it that Grayback was brought in, but did nothing to prevent him attacking people (e.g. he could have stunned him, I don't think Grayback was a wizard). > I think the true measure of Draco's worth will be found in book 7. > Thanks to Dumbledore, Draco will finally be allowed to make the > choices that will show us who he is. Based on his first major > choice, I think Draco will turn out well. I think that Draco avoided making the choice and thus forced Snape to make it for him. But no matter. Draco then ran back to Voldemort with Snape. He made a choice in the end. In my opinion Draco pretty much sealed his death warrant one way or another. In a war like this you either choose one side or the other or you get crashed between them. He can't do what Voldemort wants him to do, so he is useless to Voldemort. He also can't change sides anymore. I suspect he'll meet a fate similar to Regulus. Salit From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Aug 8 23:49:33 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:49:33 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136984 Potioncat: > Snape is surprised that Harry is doing well in Potions. But he is > furious that Harry knows the sectumsempra spell. He demands to know > where Harry learned it. Later he is angry that his spells are being > used against him. Clearly, Snape never intended any student to get > ahold of the book. Christina: I totally agree, and I just wanted to add in the bit of canon that convinced me that Snape didn't know that Harry had his book: (HBP, US, page 319) "...Some credit must go to you, of course, you tuaght him for five years!" Trapped, with Slughorn's arm around his shoulders, Snape looked down his hooked nose at Harry his black eyes narrowed. "Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all." ".....You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, Draught of Living Death-- never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus--" "Really?" said Snape quietly, his eyes still boring into Harry, who felt a certain disquiet. (end quote) The passage begins with Snape acting his usual "Yeah, doesn't Potter think he's so awesome?" self, but as soon as Slughorn gives a specific example, proving Harry's abilities, Snape goes quiet and his eyes "bore" into Harry. The moment passes and Slughorn brings up Auror!Harry, and Snape falls back into his usual sneer. The Sectumsempra part is great too- Snape speaks to Harry "quietly" and "softly" - he seems so angry I got shivers when I first read it. Potioncat: > He also says that James used his spells. If the spells are non > verbal, how did James learn them? I think someone found/took the > book and used the spells, perhaps sharing them with his best friend. Christina: We agree again. I definitely think the Marauders got their hands on the book somehow, slipping it into the Potions cabinet when they were done with it. Potioncat: > The biggest hole in my idea, is that James knew the Levicorpus spell > in 5th year. That seems too early for the book to go missing. Christina: Actually, I don't think that Snape made those notes in his NEWT year. Sirius says that Snape knew more hexes and such coming into Hogwarts his first year than most of the seventh years did. Snape must have had an eager tutor and/or loads of books at home (I'm betting on the books at least, considering the fact that his walls of books at Spinner's End shows his love for reading). We know that the Potions book was old enough to have been used by Snape's mother when she was in school. I can totally imagine a scenario where Snape is given the book to study (and eventually use as a hand-me-down) long before his sixth year. If he was wholly self-taught, he could have stumbled upon the book on his own in his family's library. Maybe Slughorn even saw potential in young Snape from the start, saw he was bored in class, and gave him a higher-level book for a little enrichment reading. Teachers did that all the time at my elementary school. Christina From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 00:38:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:38:36 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smilingator4915" wrote: > smilingator: > ...edited... > > Steve, I finally understand how there could be a paradox here. ... > For those in the Theory 1, alternate universe camp, they have a real > issue with the way JKR wrote this story, so they think there is a > paradox problem. It is kind of like the "which came first, the > chicken or the egg" debate ... For Harry to go back in time he had > to survive the dementor attack. But for Harry to survive the > dementor attack, it required the use of his future self. ... Again, > I ask for people in this camp please show me evidence from the story > that something was changed. I doubt that this will ever be resolved, > but I like the argument and considering all the different view > points is excellent for me. > > smilingator bboyminn: First, no one is invalidating the Multiple Time Line Theory of time travel *in general*, but there is evidence or at least hints in the books that tell us that this is simply not the theory the JKR used. Unfortunately, the Multi-Time theorist are so fixated on when Harry and Hermoine LEFT the timeline that they keep forgetting when they ENTERED the timeline. There are clues in the book, hints that tell us the TT!Harry and TT!Hermione were always there. NT!Harry and NT!Herione (NT!=Normal Time) heard TT!Harry and TT!Hermione in the Entrance Hall. In the second re-counting of the events, TT!Harry and TT!Hermione hear NT!Harry and NT!Hermione along with Ron out in the Entrance Hall. That's not an absolute statement of fact, but it's a strong enough and intentional enough hint to settle it for me. They heard each other; therefore, they were ALL ALWAYS THERE. Since Harry was there, he was there to save himself. Simple as that. Anytime you have reverse/backward time travel, you will have the effect before the cause. We see the effects of Harry and Hermione time traveling before we know the cause; effect-Harry saved Harry, cause-Harry time traveled. That in and of itself is enough to create a paradox. However, it's nnly a big unresolvable paradox if you insist on starting history in the future and working back in time. But when you look at the fact that TT!Harry arrived in the time line at 6:00pm and time moves forward from there, then I can't see where there can be any problem. He is there at 6:00pm on that evening. From that point on, he is always there. Again, the book leaves clues establishing that TT!Harry andTT!Hermione arrive at 6:00pm and that NT!Harry, NT!Hermione, and Ron are aware of their presence even if they don't know specifically who it is. Back to one of my original points, you can argue free-will all you want, but Harry and Hermione did not go back in time to save Harry, they went back in time to save Sirius using Buckbeak; Buckbeak who Dumbledore already knew had escaped. When I said that Dumbledore, Harry, and Hermione view saving Sirius as a future event, that was true. In their frame of reference and knowledge, they don't know that as they speak TT!Harry and TT!Hermione are in the process of saving Sirius. That /knowledge/ comes to them in THEIR FUTURE. Harry, having arrived at 6:00pm, didn't arrive to save himself, he didn't even run out of Hagrid's hut to save himself, he didn't stand by the lake to save himself, he didn't even know that HE would saved himself until the last minute, and by his own revelation and free-will choice, he did it; he saved himself. And, why not, he was there, nothing else to do, so why not save himself? Multiple Timeline Theory is valid in general discussion, but JKR specifically put clues in the story to tell us that this in NOT the timeline theory she was using. Theory 1- Multiple Timelines - has a huge unresolvable hole in it. Theory 2- Single Timeline - doesn't Why would anyone cling the the theory that DOESN'T work, when we have one that does? Of course, that's just one man's opinion...oh yes, and most likely the author's too. steve/bboyminn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 00:45:15 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:45:15 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Sn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136986 > hg wrote: > Okay, Carol, I'm guessing this is the post you're so eager to hear a > reply to? > > I should begin by saying that I thought the post was brilliant. My > question going in is this: When does Snape discover what exactly he > vowed to help Draco do (whom he vowed to help Draco kill)? At > Spinner's End (did he already know, or upon taking the Vow), or at > the Christmas talk, or the forest row, or when Harry nearly murders > Draco, or up on the Tower? I have a feeling that he realizes it on > the Tower, although Dumbledore knew all along Draco's intended victim was him. It seems to me that in Spinner's End Snape thinks he's agreeing to kill Harry, that he was agreeing to the Vow because he needed to know what the plan was. Do I need to re-read? Carol responds: I think (and this is just my opinion) that JKR wants readers to suspect that the task is to kill Harry. But for some reason, I never thought that--possibly because Snape has made so many attempts to keep Harry alive. I don't think he would have agreed to an Unbreakable Vow to do any such thing--just as he doesn't kill Harry and won't even let the DEs Crucio him at the end of the book. But reareading won't help. We can still only guess at how much Snape know because we're seeing him from the outside. I think he begins by bluffing, pretending that Voldemort has told him the plan, and he is banking on the two women not revealing to Voldemort that Narcissa has come to him for help. If I'm right about the initial bluff, then there are only two more possibilities: he's bluffing through the entire scene or he uses Legilimency on Narcissa and discovers the mission after he's disposed of Bellatrix's doubts. (Some posters have suggested that Narcissa uses Legilimency on Snape, but Snape is a "superb Occlumens," always on his guard, and he's not going to let that happen. Also Legilimency seems to be a rare trait, and we know of only three wizards who can do it--Snape, Dumbledore, and Voldemort). As for Snape not knowing that the cursed necklace and poisoned mead were attempts to kill Dumbledore rather than Harry, I don't see how that's possible. Also, the duel in the bathroom would show that Draco is not trying to kill Harry. Snape would have died on the spot right then for having failed to help Draco carry out his mission. And killing Harry, whom Draco sees in any NEWT classes they're taking together, would not require Draco to complete some secret project that he refuses to reveal to Snape. So I could be wrong, but I don't see how Snape could fail to know that Draco's mission is to kill Dumbledore--and Dumbledore knows it, too, which is why he hasn't called Draco in to see him. > > > > Carol earlier: > Snape's conversation with Draco occurs between the necklace incident and the poisoned mead... Almost certainly Snape is following Dumbledore's orders in speaking to Draco, not acting on his own because of the vow. His idea of "helping" Draco, up to that point, has been to put his two accomplices in detention. Now he is forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct action. At any rate, Draco's party crashing gives him an opportunity that can't be passed up. > > hg: > I agree that Dumbledore put him up to more direct action. But can't > it also be that he's trying to figure out (and quick) just what he > vowed to help with? Carol responds: See above. I don't see how he could *not* know that the necklace and mead were intended for Dumbledore, especially since Dumbledore says over and over that he trusts. Severus Snape. If he trusts Snape to save him from the ring Horcrux, surely he trusts him with the knowledge of Draco's mission (not the vanishing cabinet part, which neither of them figures out, but the knowledge of Draco's intended target--assuming that Snape has not told Dumbledore that information, which is what I think happened). Carol earlier, quoted by hg: > > Snape tries a variety of tactics in this conversation [beautifully > detailed explanation in Carol's original post]. Draco is supremely unconcerned that Snape has put his life on the line...The interview has been a fiasco. There is no point in making a second attempt. It's possible, too, that Snape is afraid that trying to stop him will make matters worse instead of better . Surely he could have pushed past Draco's easily detectable attempt at Occlumency, but he doesn't do it, either because he doesn't want to further alienate the already uncooperative Draco or because he is afraid that if he finds out what Draco is doing, he'll be forced by the vow to aid him. I think it's primarily the second reason. > > hg: > I like that second reason, too, but I wonder if we'd have to see a turn from Snape in the conversation. A realization that this Vow was > more than he bargained for. I'm not sure I can pinpoint a moment > like that; can you? I think fear of further arousing Draco's > suspicions is part of Snape's motivation, whether the second reason > is true or not. Carol responds: I'm not sure I understand your point about "a turn from Snape." But I see the turning point as coming long before--the trembling hand as Snape takes the last provision of the vow. You're probably right that the first reason is also important. Certainly he's hiding behind the DE/double agent mask throughout the interview. It's the same reason that he doesn't put Draco himself in detention. He's not afraid of a sixteen-year-old boy whose DE father is in prison. He's afraid of revealing that he's not what the boy thinks he is. But I think he's mostly afraid of having to act on the vow to help (in the sense of assisting rather than keeping him out of deeper trouble) Draco if he knew exactly what Draco was doing. > > Carol earlier: > > Snape's row with Dumbledore in the forest occurs after Draco's second bungled attempt to kill Dumbledore backfires. Snape knows that his influence on Draco is gone. No wonder he explodes and tells Dumbledore that he takes too much for granted and that he, Snape, doesn't want to do it any more. > hg: > I am utterly convinced that you're right. "I don't want to be a double agent anymore" doesn't make any sense, but "I don't want to try to help/stop Draco" does. Each encounter with Draco must seem perilously closer to one or both of them dying. > I, too, see Snape as trapped. Voldemort is certainly in my estimation using Narcissa's love for her son and Snape's connection to Draco to force a decisive loyalty-proving action out of Snape. I've been wondering if Dumbledore, too, wasn't forcing Snape's hand. That would probably make the most sense only if Snape didn't tell Dumbledore what he suspected Draco to be up to, and if Dumbledore didn't tell Snape what HE suspected. I've been at a loss for a way to demonstrate my guess that Dumbledore, like Voldemort, is forcing Snape's hand. Any trust that Dumbledore has for Snape, in any event, isn't blind. > > Great post, sorry I never saw it until today. > hg. Carol responds: Thanks, hg. I agree that Dumbledore's trust in Snape isn't blind, and I don't think he could have continued to trust him with his very life (wanting his help and no one else's after he's poisoned in the cave) if Snape hadn't told him the whole truth about the Unbreakable Vow. If Dumbledore is forcing Snape's hand, as you suggest, all he needed to do was to offer him the DADA position. Surely both of them know, as it's offered and as it's accepted, that this is their last year together. Both of them know Dumbledore, badly damaged by the ring Horcrux, is running out of time. Both of them know that the position is jinxed, and that Snape's dangerous game could end either in his betrayal of Dumbledore or his own death. Neither of them anticipates the Unbreakable Vow, but once Snape takes it, and once he reports it to Dumbledore (as I think he does), both of them know the shape that the jinx has taken. Carol, hoping that she snipped enough to satisfy the list elves (any more would have interfered with the coherence of the conversation) From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 00:52:51 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:52:51 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136987 ;) > Betsy Hp > "You're at my mercy...." > "No, Draco," said Dumbledore quietly. "It is my mercy, and not > yours, that matters now." (592) My favorite DD moment in the book. I love that line. > And Draco, with the freedom to choose finally returned to him, > lowers his wand. Even with the temptation of the four Death Eaters, > who five times by my count try to turn Draco into a killer, Draco > shows us (and Harry) who he truly is: he is not a killer; he is an > innocent. You almost had me Betsy, until this line. Draco became a much more three-D character in this book and I liked that. I still hate the character but I liked that he got more substance. But Draco, whatever he might be and however might he end up is not an innocent. Draco did a great number of bad things and expressed very little squeamishness over it. Stamping on the face of a paralyzed person takes a certain level of sadism that I think you are glossing over. While he might have experienced hesitation in killing someone face to face, he never really seemed all that broken up over the near deaths of two students from a distance. The death eaters he let into the castle could have killed dozens of students. The fact that the group faired as well as they did was due more to the fact that they were drugged to the gills in luck potion. As it stands people were injured and Bill was mutilated because of his actions. Maybe he was caught off guard by Fenir showing, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that he was the one that opened the door. Morally ambiguous, maybe. Innocent? Not in a million years. > Betsy Hp: > I would say not killing Dumbledore showed a great deal of > compassion. Or squeamishness. Just because Draco couldn't kill someone who was staring at him in the face doesn't mean he was a fluffy bunny. He still perpetrated plenty of violence against Hogwarts. We haven't seen any evidence that Draco regrets any of the violence he has caused. His actions speak much louder than whatever he might have said to Dumbledore. >And in a round about sort of way, keeping his friends > out of his tangles with Voldemort showed a form of compassion too. How did he keep his friend out of it? I seem to recall Crabbe and Goyle being used quite a bit. And even if he wasn't involving half the slytherin fifth years, it seems to me that was more because of orders to keep his job below radar more than out of compassion or a sense of duty to his friends and fellow students. > I think the true measure of Draco's worth will be found in book 7. > Thanks to Dumbledore, Draco will finally be allowed to make the > choices that will show us who he is. Based on his first major > choice, I think Draco will turn out well. I think Draco is going to survive, but Draco is never going to turn out well. phoenixgod2000 From frugalarugala at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 01:00:41 2005 From: frugalarugala at yahoo.com (frugalarugala) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:00:41 -0000 Subject: R.A.B. & Missing Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "georgy_grl" wrote: > In OotP, JKR refers to a "Heavy locket which none of them could open" > in the chapter titled: "The Nole and Most Ancient House of Black. > Late in HBP, a fake horcrux is discovered, and the note inside the > horcrux is signed R.A.B. R.A.B seems to have known Voldemort, very > well, as only the Death Eaters (and occaisionally Dobby) refer to > Voldemort as "The Dard Lord", and the note begins with: "To The Dark > Lord". > > I just wondered: what is Sirius' brother, Regalus' middle name, and > couldn't JKR have described the locket more fully, or does anyone think > that would have given away clues. > > Georgy Granger Got to be the same locket. What other reason was there for the scene in HBP with Mundungus and the suitcase of stole stuff from Grimmauld Place? --Frugala From juicyfruit3797 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 00:57:18 2005 From: juicyfruit3797 at yahoo.com (juicyfruit3797) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:57:18 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136989 After rereading some of HBP I am starting to think the HBP is Voldemort. Back in the Burrow during the Christmas holidays Harry talks with Lupin, wondering if he ever heard of someone being called the half- blood prince. Lupin does not and assures Harry it was not his father James. He then says, "How old is this book, Harry?" and Harry replies, "I dunno, I've never checked." So later that night Harry looks through the book and discovers that it was published some fifty years ago, which I think is around how old the diary in CoS was. Snape was not at Hogwarts at that time. Voldemort is half-blood, and maybe 'Prince' was his title before 'Lord'? I don't know this all seemed odd to me when I was reading...Maybe it was also Snape's book, after all he was poor and probably couldn't afford to buy books, thus explaining why he has always been good at potions? Thoughts? Juicyfruit From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 23:48:33 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP. Re: Harry and Ginny /Luna In-Reply-To: <1123448602.3020.74289.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050808234833.86592.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136990 Phoenixgod2000 wrote: I just wanted to say a little something about H/L. you say she would drive him crazy, but we know it wouldn't based on Harry's actions at the Slug party with her. He found her to be amusing and he ended up being glad he took her. As for the crazy quests, I actually think they would be romantic. Lynda says: But for all of that good time, he did not pursue a relationship with Luna after that, as he doesn't with Hermione. Now, if JKR chooses to pair them together, I hope she will do it in a convincing manner, but I'm not expecting it. I also disagree about Ginny not balancing Harry's edge. I think he actually needs someone a bit edgy who can better understand him. Again, JMHO. Lynda From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 22:51:49 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:51:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136991 I have to post this, so forgive me if it seems strange. My husband has asked me to ask for your venerable opinions on the matter of DD. He seems to think that Dumbledore created a Horcrux for himself and that he's therefore not really dead, or that he could come back. Now, who has DD killed? Well, it doesn't really say "killed" but it says on the back of his chocolate frog that he "defeated" Grindevald in 1945. In JKR's recent interview she said that the time of his death was important and that he is bigger than he seems. IMO, I think that this is a really evil piece of magic for DD to perform, and I'm wondering why he would have created this for himself? It doesn't strike me as very DD-ish to fear death so much to create something that would keep him from really dying. I'm more interested in his connection to phoenixes. Will he arise from the flames? We did see a flash of fire before he disappeared under his tomb. Forgive me if this has already been fleshed out more. I'm in the middle of the book for the second time, so I'm still a bit sketchy on certain details. Be kind. Rachel From elbarad at aol.com Mon Aug 8 22:05:26 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:05:26 -0000 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: <005c01c59c40$4e72bef0$7524f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136992 Lynda first wrote: I think you may be right about Lupin being a metaphor for >an HIV infected person. Rebecca: That is a very good point! It had never occured to me that Lupin and his condition were a metaphor for anything, but I have to agree that there is a certain anaology between WW attidudes to 'werewolfism' and western attitudes to HIV/AIDS, particularly back in the late eighties and early nineties. It would be interesting have the opportunity to ask JKR whether this was intentional or coincidental. Either way, it is food for thought. Sherry Gomes > I've always thought Remus was meant to represent disability in > general...Many people still consider those of us with > disabilities to be monsters of a sort, scary and not quite > human or not quite as good as able bodied people. Rebecca: I think that some of the "scariness" comes from not knowing what to say and how to act, being scared of getting it wrong and so avoiding the subject altogether. It has taken the diagnosis of one of my children with a mental disability to make me more aware of my actions/ inactions and how they might be perceived. It's a hard lesson, and one I hope that I hope that few of you will ever have to go through. Sherry Gomes > it's why I'm particularly partial to Remus and would like > to see him happy and learning to live with and accept his > condition in the end, not necessarily to do anything heroic, > but just learning to live with peace and some happiness. Rebecca: Hear hear!! I would love to see Remus Lupin "live happily ever after". And not because he's a tragic figure but because he's so gentle and thoughtful, and I've adored him since he was introduced in POA - long before we discovered his 'furry little problem'. I truly hope that JKR doesn't kill him off. Rebecca From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 8 21:36:49 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:36:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136993 I'm not replying, but I've had further thoughts on this theory. If I'm right that Ginny is wearing love potion for perfume, knowingly or unknowingly, that doesn't have to be the end of H/G. It could just mean that H/G shippers get just as much of a roller coaster ride out of book 7 as the rest of us. It could come out early in the book, perhaps Verity saying it at the wedding, and then Harry goes off to hunt Horcruxes, and we all get to wonder if he will go back to Ginny. Maybe he'll decide he's glad it drew his attention to her, and he'll go back to her when he can. That could nicely fill in what some of us didn't see in their relationship in book 6. Some think that all the detail we were given with Harry's star chart during his Astronomy OWL exam is foreshadowing clues, OOTP pg 719 - 720 US. Venus represents love, and now we can see that as his relationship with Ginny. By following what Harry did with Venus in filling in his star chart, you can see a pause and resume in the relationship, maybe even two of them. That would be a way for Jo to include Emma-like twists, alternate dealing with the romance and the hero journey, and get them both wrapped up in one book. Pat. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 01:12:44 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half-Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050809011244.46997.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136994 juicyfruit3797 wrote: After rereading some of HBP I am starting to think the HBP is Voldemort. Juli: Actually JKR says No in her website: Section: F.A.Q.Is Tom Riddle the Half-Blood Prince? Well, as Tom Riddle is the same person as Voldemort, and Voldemort is NOT the Half-Blood Prince do I really need to answer this? So, nope, Voldemort isn't the HBP Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Tue Aug 9 01:23:54 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:23:54 -0000 Subject: Ron's Birthday Presents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136995 First the obligatory "I apologize if this hasn't been mentioned, but there are way too many posts to go through." Whew, now that that's out of the way... I'm rereading HBP for the 4th time. Why this particular tidbit leapt out at me at this juncture is hard to say. Among Ron's birthday presents is a "heavy gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars instead of hands." I thought I was experiencing deja vu until I remembered something from PS/SS (which I'm also rereading concurrently): "Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he a took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers. Instead, little planets were moving around the edge." Given JKR's penchant for giving us what are seemingly throw-away lines, I had to wonder if Ron's present is actually Dumbledore's watch. The question is, what does the watch do? Will it become important in book 7. We're given to believe the watch is from his parents, but there's no proof of that. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but it does seem an interesting coincidence. Claire From rt11guru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 01:36:02 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:36:02 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's and Percy 007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136996 jujube wrote: 3. The symbols of these elements are: cup, pentacle, rod, and sword. 5. The 4 symbolic items already correspond to 3 known items which come from the founders: the pentacle (locket--Slytherin), the cup (Hufflepuff) and the sword(Gryffindor), 2 of which we know are Horcruxes and one of which--the sword--we know is not a Horcrux and is not going to be one. 7. The "missing item" from the Tarot card is the wand. 8. There is an old wand given a place of honor in Ollivander's shop. 9. Ollivander is missing and the shop is empty. Guru says: Interesting, very interesting. So the question is: Where is the wand? a) Olivander took it and fled when he closed up shop. b) It was stolen and Olivander was kidnapped or killed. c) It was sold to Neville (my favorite choice). d) Some other possiblity that someone else will propose. On another current topic, Percy is a spy, deep, deep undercover. His parents probably know but can't acknowledge it. He's going to show up in book 7 wearing a black wizard trench coat, wand in a shoulder holster, drinking his butterbeer shaken, not stirred. When valet parking takes his Astin-Martin broom and asks his name, he'll reply. "Weasley, Percy Weasley". Remember, the number 007 has magical properties. Guru From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 01:42:29 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:42:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...>: > Pat wrote: > I'm not replying, but I've had further thoughts on this theory. > > If I'm right that Ginny is wearing love potion for perfume, > knowingly or unknowingly, that doesn't have to be the end of H/G. > It could just mean that H/G shippers get just as much of a roller > coaster ride out of book 7 as the rest of us. Max responds: Please forgive me if this has already been discussed. I haven't been able to keep up with all the discussion. But is there somewhere in the book which states love potions can be worn as perfume and actually be effective? I don't remember this, but certainly could have missed it. HBP seemed to imply that love potions need to be ingested. Max From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 01:44:58 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Birthday Presents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050809014459.52356.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 136998 Claire wrote: I'm rereading HBP for the 4th time. Why this particular tidbit leapt out at me at this juncture is hard to say. Among Ron's birthday presents is a "heavy gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars instead of hands." I thought I was experiencing deja vu until I remembered something from PS/SS (which I'm also rereading concurrently): "Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he a took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers. Instead, little planets were moving around the edge." Hi, This has been discussed before (sorry), here're the links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128726 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/133438 I know there's another thread, but YahooMort isn't liking me today ;) Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wrexx at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 00:52:30 2005 From: wrexx at hotmail.com (wrexx1) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:52:30 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 136999 > Christina: > Actually, I don't think that Snape made those notes in his NEWT year. Maybe Slughorn even saw > potential in young Snape from the start, saw he was bored in class, > and gave him a higher-level book for a little enrichment reading. > Teachers did that all the time at my elementary school. > Thanks, Christina; I wondered if anybody else was thinking along these lines. The book was fifty years old, so it could easily have been mom's or Slughorn's, complete with margin doodles. Slughorn likes to adopt students of promise, hoping to share their future limelight, so I could easily envision him loaning the book to Snape, and later to Harry. That would explain why nobody else came across it during those twenty years when Slughorn was away. Wrexx From ABadgerFan2 at msn.com Tue Aug 9 01:56:05 2005 From: ABadgerFan2 at msn.com (abadgerfan2) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:56:05 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux in the Room of Requirement? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137000 JKR certainly leaves this open to consideration in Book 6, by discussing all of the many, many old items stored there besides the Advanced potions book stowed away there by Harry, and the cabinet that Draco repairs! I think Harry will be back there in book 7 to fetch the potions book, and perhaps stumble across a Horcrux placed there by Voldemort earlier! Any thoughts on this? Jim From vapaganheart at yahoo.com Mon Aug 8 20:47:55 2005 From: vapaganheart at yahoo.com (vapaganheart) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:47:55 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137001 I'm new and I hope this has not been brought up before. I really don't want to bore you all my first time out. ;) There is something up between Dumbledore and Snape. Everyone keeps questioning why he would trust Snape. I kept trying to think of a familial bond but then I realized it was obvious. DD made Snape take an unbreakable vow. This also means that Snape knew before taking Malfoy's mothers vow what was to come. Therefore DD knew. I'm starting to think there was definately a plot between the 2 of them and DD is alive. They had to know what was to come and DD was not begging for his life but pushing Snape to go through with it. What do you think? vapaganheart From ABadgerFan2 at msn.com Tue Aug 9 02:13:55 2005 From: ABadgerFan2 at msn.com (abadgerfan2) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:13:55 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Get His Own Phoenix?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137002 Harry will need help in book 7, as he continues to mature and grow in his magical powers. While Hermoine and Ron will surely be there, what about the idea of Harry ending up with his own Phoenix as an assistant and protector now that Dumbledore is gone? If it is true that Dumbledore will always be present at Hogwarts as long as there are people there who are loyal to him, surely Harry has now shown sufficient loyalty to have earned the continued aid of Dumbledore in the transcended form of the phoenix that Harry thought he may have seen flying away from Dumbledore's funeral near the end of Book 6! This type of plot twist is not without precedence ... Gandolf returns from his seeming death in Lord of the Rings, and Obi Wan Kenobi returns to assist or at least counsel, in another form, after being willingly smitten down by Darth Vader in Star Wars! Any thoughts or variations on this theme are more than welcome! Jim From jmmears at comcast.net Tue Aug 9 02:23:25 2005 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:23:25 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_SHIP:_=93Emma=94,_Twists,_and_HBP?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...> wrote: > > Pat: Jo never intended to aim the books at children. I know it was a long post - did you see the two quotes where she said she wrote it for herself, as something she would like to read, and that since she's 33, this is probably why adults like the books? The publishers made the decision it was a children's book, just like they decided that she needed to call the Philosopher's Stone a Sorcerer's Stone. I'm sorry to be coming to this so late but I just wanted to note that JKR does refer to the series as "kids books" in the July 2005 Dateline NBC interview with Katie Couric. Here's the link from Quick Quotes: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-nbcdateline- couric.htm I was surprised to hear her say this, but say it she did. Jo Serenadust, back from the dead (sort of) From hambtty at triad.rr.com Tue Aug 9 02:33:17 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:33:17 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wrexx1" wrote: > > Christina: > > Actually, I don't think that Snape made those notes in his NEWT year. > > Maybe Slughorn even saw > > potential in young Snape from the start, saw he was bored in class, > > and gave him a higher-level book for a little enrichment reading. > > Teachers did that all the time at my elementary school. > > > > Thanks, Christina; I wondered if anybody else was thinking along these > lines. > The book was fifty years old, so it could easily have been mom's or > Slughorn's, complete with margin doodles. Slughorn likes to adopt > students of promise, hoping to share their future limelight, so I > could easily envision him loaning the book to Snape, and later to Harry. > That would explain why nobody else came across it during those twenty > years when Slughorn was away. > > Wrexx Excellent point Wrexx - I'd not thought of Slughorn bringing that book with him. Now I wonder: >Why did he take it when he left Hogwarts and why did he bring it back? >Did DD know Slughorn had it? >Did he request that it be given to Harry? >It had to be someone else's book before Snapes if it is 50 years old - whose? >Voldermorte's notes in a book Snape found and then called himself the HBP? JKR said TR/LV was not the HBP but it still could have been TR's book and Snape the HBP. BG is puzzling From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 02:33:12 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:33:12 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137005 Jujube: > -------------- > JKR: Probably. I hear you. It is the tradition to have four houses, > but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four > elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is > earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room > is under the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and > balance, that you had four necessary components and by integrating > them you would make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, > as we know. > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview3.html > --------------- > > 3. The symbols of these elements are: cup, pentacle, rod, and > sword. ....edit..... > 5. The 4 symbolic items already correspond to 3 known items which > come from the founders: the pentacle (locket--Slytherin), the cup > (Hufflepuff) and the sword(Gryffindor), 2 of which we know are > Horcruxes and one of which--the sword--we know is not a Horcrux and > is not going to be one. ...edit.... > 7. The "missing item" from the Tarot card is the wand. Valky: This is very interesting. And I think that there is something that we should note bout Voldemorts Horcruxes as opposed to the Four Houses at Hogwarts as they were set up by JKR. The Four Houses - Slytherin - Water - Cups Gryffindor - Fire - Wands Hufflepuff - Pentacles - Earth Ravenclaw - Air - Sword The Founders Objects as Jujube suggests - Slytherin Pendant - Pentacle - Earth Gryffindor Sword - Sword - Air Hufflepuff Chalice - Cup - Water Ravenclaw Wand - Wand - Fire Voldemorts Horcruxes - Slytherin Pendant - Pentacle - Earth Gryffindor ?...? - Sword/Wand - Air/Fire Hufflepuff Chalice - Cup - Water Ravenclaw ?...? - Sword/Wand - Air/Fire We do seem to have a wand belonging in The Ravenclaw position. Equally interesting is that I have seen it suggested that the Horcruxes of Voldemort also look very much like the Egyptian parts of the soul. Different accounts of this have different numbers of parts to each, some 5 some 7 and some 9. Those that count seven look a bit like this: 1) The Khat, which most of us simply call the physical body. Is Voldemorts own body 2) The Ba, the soul of breath. Is the Ring. 3) The Khaba sometimes known as Ib or Jb. The emotional Body (the heart) Is the Locket. 4) The Khaibit, the intellectual body. Is the Diary. 5) The Ka, the spiritual Self, or Higher Mind. I guessed earlier The Hufflepuff Cup. 6) The Sekhen, the Super-consciousness. I guessed earlier The Ravenclaw Object 7) The Ren, the Pure Spirit, The Name. I also guessed earlier to be Nagini. The interesting thing about that is the Sekhen, which I guessed to be the Ravenclaw Object, is symbolised by a Staff. (Staffs, Wands, Clubs, and Batons are all interchangeable terms for the same part of the Tarot Deck)so IMO jujube could *Really* be onto something here.. While we are on the Egyptian mythology the ren (Name) is said to kept secret, because those who discover it can use it to undo the creation of this soul. And the Name Nagini is similar to the name Netjer, which is the Egyptian One God. That could be exactly the kind of secret name that someone like Voldemort would use to crown his final immortality. So in a way it fits since Nagini is supposed to be Voldemorts last and ultimate Horcrux of his six. The Egyptian Mythology goes on and on with possibilities, thousands of them. So this conjecture may not lead anywhere at all. I just thought I'd mention it though. Valky From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 9 02:37:46 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Missing Horcrux in the Room of Requirement? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050809023746.45490.qmail@web53306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137006 abadgerfan2 wrote: JKR certainly leaves this open to consideration in Book 6, by discussing all of the many, many old items stored there besides the Advanced potions book stowed away there by Harry, and the cabinet that Draco repairs! I think Harry will be back there in book 7 to fetch the potions book, and perhaps stumble across a Horcrux placed there by Voldemort earlier! Any thoughts on this? Jim Luckdragon: I keep thinking about the tiara he places on the statue to help mark his spot. Jo always seems to throw in mundane info. which ends up important. ie) the locket at 12 grimmauld place. I could be totally off, but ever since learning about the horcrux's the tarnished old tiara has stuck in my mind. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joj at rochester.rr.com Tue Aug 9 02:46:31 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:46:31 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137007 > > phoenixgod2000: Would you be as blase about the event if it had been Ron > sending birds after Hermione? I don't think anyone on this list > would be. There are levels of violence that people will accept from > women towards men that just aren't acceptable in reverse. Joj: I was more bothered by Harry telling Hedwig to keep pecking Ron and Hermione until he got answers from them in OotP. What bothered me thre most was when he thought he was not at all sorry when he saw their pecked up hands. We don't get internal dialog from Ron and Hermione, and I'm sure it's a good thing. I think we'd like them less if we did. Harry comes of as quite likable, considering we hear his thoughts. I wouldn't want anyone to hear my thoughts. Joj From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 9 02:57:58 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Birthday Presents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050809025758.87319.qmail@web53309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137008 Claire wrote: First the obligatory "I apologize if this hasn't been mentioned, but there are way too many posts to go through." Whew, now that that's out of the way... I'm rereading HBP for the 4th time. Why this particular tidbit leapt out at me at this juncture is hard to say. Among Ron's birthday presents is a "heavy gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars instead of hands." I thought I was experiencing deja vu until I remembered something from PS/SS (which I'm also rereading concurrently): "Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he a took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers. Instead, little planets were moving around the edge." Given JKR's penchant for giving us what are seemingly throw-away lines, I had to wonder if Ron's present is actually Dumbledore's watch. The question is, what does the watch do? Will it become important in book 7. We're given to believe the watch is from his parents, but there's no proof of that. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but it does seem an interesting coincidence. Claire Luckdragon: There is a watch like DD's on Jo's website as well. I'm wondering if it could have something with turning back time despite canon saying all the time turners were destroyed in OOTP during the fight at the ministry. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 9 02:59:59 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:59:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clarinut76" wrote: > I have to post this, so forgive me if it seems strange. My > husband has asked me to ask for your venerable opinions on the > matter of DD. He seems to think that Dumbledore created a Horcrux > for himself and that he's therefore not really dead, or that he > could come back. Now, who has DD killed? Well, it doesn't really > say "killed" but it says on the back of his chocolate frog that > he "defeated" Grindevald in 1945. In JKR's recent interview she > said that the time of his death was important and that he is > bigger than he seems. Jen: No chance Dumbledore created a Horcrux. That would negate all his beliefs about goodness, choice, death, 'the next great adventure', etc. But I do think Gridelwald created one Horcrux, and by destroying that one, Dumbledore learned about the use of Horcruxes and how to defeat them. That's what led him to ban the information at Hogwarts, I suspect. He knows first-hand how dangerous that particular piece of dark magic can be. I think JKR's interview with Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron supports the idea Grindelwald is very much involved in Book 7 because she wouldn't answer questions about him (except a very general one). DD says in the Horcrux chapter of HBP: "As far as I know--as far, I am sure, as Voldemort knew--no wizard had ever done more than tear his soul in two." (p. 500, US) People have suggested Riddle was an apprentice to Grindelwald in order to learn about Horcruxes. That's possible, there was an approximately two-year period between the time of the Riddle murders and Grindelwald's defeat. Or Riddle just learned about Horcruxes in the same way Grindelwald may have-- through the underground network or literature in Knockturn Alley. There must be a "Make your own Horcrux" book somewhere! But you would probably have to be incredibly powerful to actually pull it off. Rachel: > I'm more interested > in his connection to phoenixes. Will he arise from the flames? > We did see a flash of fire before he disappeared under his tomb. Jen: I loved the idea JKR left us with during the funeral scene, that a magically powerful and uncommonly good wizard reincarnated as a phoenix. At least that's how I read the ending, when Harry thought for a moment he saw a Phoenix fly 'joyfully' from the flames surrounding the tomb. JKR left it ambiguous, but that was my hope for Dumbledore. Joy, freedom, 'the next great adventure'. Jen, still a little sniffly at the thought. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 03:19:13 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:19:13 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: >> >It had to be someone else's book before Snapes if it is 50 years > old - whose? > > >Voldermorte's notes in a book Snape found and then called himself > the HBP? > > JKR said TR/LV was not the HBP but it still could have been TR's > book and Snape the HBP. > I wonder about McGonagall. After all, she made a statement in OoTP that she'd help Harry become an Auror if it was the last thing she ever did. And she did put him in Advanced Potions this time around and told him to get a book from Slughorn. I don't think the spells in the margin would put her off either, and since Umbridge is still throwing her weight around the ministry, MM might want to make double sure Harry does well--its personal for her now. Cindy From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Aug 9 03:20:20 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:20:20 -0000 Subject: Not-Quite Werewolf!Bill In-Reply-To: <20050808213040.85972.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: I think you are mistaken, werewolves can work, I mean the law doesn't forbid it, it's just that nobody gives them work. Sirius in OoP, when he appears at the chimeney to talk to Harry, Harry starts complaining about Umbridge, then Sirius says "You should hear Remus talk about her", why? "She TRIED to pass an anti-werewolf law" I'm paraphrasing here from memory, but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes > > > Juli > Aol: jlnbtr > Yahoo: jlnbtr > I think it was that Umbridge passed a nasty bit of legislation that makes it nearly impossible for Remus to find work. Hence his clothing is always "more shabby and tattered than ever" each time Harry sees him. Does anyone else think that if his clothes REALLY were shabby and more tattered *every single time* that he would be wearing a loincloth by now??? (Maybe that's why Tonks likes him... :) ) Allie From zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 02:54:21 2005 From: zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com (zeldaricdeau) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:54:21 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137012 juicyfruit wrote: "After rereading some of HBP I am starting to think the HBP is Voldemort. Harry looks through the book and discovers that it was published some fifty years ago, which I think is around how old the diary in CoS was. Snape was not at Hogwarts at that time." Zeldaricdeau: As Juli noted in her post, JKR is very explicit in stating that the HBP is definitely not Voldemort (or Tom Riddle). The inclusion of the 50 year old print date should still be a relevant clue, however, as you have suggested. Personally, I think it's just evidence that it belonged to Eileen Prince and was a hand-me-down to Severus who annotated it before and during his stay at Hogwarts (don't really subscribe to the idea that Eileen made the annotations herself). And I believe that connection is relevant because I am also convinced that that is why Madam Pince went ballistic over the book when she saw Harry with it in the library: because she is Irma Prince and recognized it. :) Zeldaricdeau. From feenyjam at msu.edu Tue Aug 9 03:21:29 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:21:29 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook (his worst year ever) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137013 I was having a bit of trouble with the HBP book itself. I read a few posts eariler discussing how the spell Harry uses against Draco could be the same one Snape uses against James in the Pensive. Which got me thinking about a prior post discusisng, from what we see, the beginning of the HBP's potions book shows a student trying to become the best potions master they can. It only appears later during the school year that the HPB (Snape) begins to create his own dark arts spells. Thus, are we to assume that, based off of what we see with the development of the HBP through Harry, that Snape's worst year would be his sixth year? I assume this because I assume that Slughorn would use the same book for the same year as he did before. Any thoughts? Greenfirespike From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 03:34:51 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:34:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Sticky Fingers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137015 Pg 446 HBP AE "For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone." So what to make of this? It appears that Harry felt Voldemort was considering attacking DD and the line could have been included to reinforce Voldemort's fear (respect) of DD's powers. However, even on the first reading, I got the impression that perhaps Voldemort was quickly swiping something, and of course, that something could be a trophy for a horcrux, something of Gryffindor's or a personal item of DD's--which I think Voldemort would really love to have as his horcrux. Has DD ever talked about misplacing something? Cindy From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 04:12:42 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 04:12:42 -0000 Subject: Voldemort magic-less? Was Re: How will LV be destroyed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137016 > MIL: > of squib), he will be forced to live as one, with every bit of human > weaknesses this may convey on him, that yes, will eventualy lead to > his death, but not before enduring a life of *human weakness*... My response: I like the poetic justice of this, I really do. But I think that Voldemort would spend about an hour and a half as a Muggle or Squib before some wizard with a grudge would kill him. If he went into the witness protection program (or something) and escaped the direct repercussions of his evil in the WW entirely, I'd like that even less. He didn't actually need magic to get many weak-minded and twisted folks to follow him; as a magic-less person, he might only be as bad as, say, Hitler. Sandy, aka msbeadsley, who really is catching up slowly From mcandrew at bigpond.com Tue Aug 9 04:13:05 2005 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (Little lama) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 04:13:05 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: FIFTH year text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greenfirespike" wrote: > > > I was having a bit of trouble with the HBP book itself. I read a few > posts eariler discussing how the spell Harry uses against Draco could > be the same one Snape uses against James in the Pensive. Which got me > thinking about a prior post discusisng, from what we see, the > beginning of the HBP's potions book shows a student trying to become > the best potions master they can. It only appears later during the > school year that the HPB (Snape) begins to create his own dark arts > spells. > > Thus, are we to assume that, based off of what we see with the > development of the HBP through Harry, that Snape's worst year would be > his sixth year? I assume this because I assume that Slughorn would > use the same book for the same year as he did before. Any thoughts? > > Greenfirespike Actually, I have been intrigued by the fact that Snape was already using the Advanced Potions textbook in his FIFTH year, although it is now a sixth year text. The Pensieve scene where he's tormented by James took place, if you remember, after they had just sat one of their OWL exams, which take place in fifth year. I am confident that the sectumsempra spell is the same one SS used in the Pensieve scene ... and that JKR laid this as an early clue for wide awake HBP readers as to the HBP's identity. Speaking of early clues, another one was the 'small, cramped handwriting' with which the back cover of the book was labelled ... very reminiscent of the 'minuscule, cramped handwriting' (quoted from memory) which Harry had previously observed teenage Snape using to write his exam paper in the Pensieve scene. So, a teensy slip up by JKR? ... or was teenage Snape working a year ahead of his peers - seems he was entirely capable of it - or did the school later decide that the fifth year potions syllabus was too demanding for sixteen year olds? ;-) Lama (long, longtime lurker) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 05:09:19 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 05:09:19 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: FIFTH year text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Little lama" wrote: > > Actually, I have been intrigued by the fact that Snape was already > using the Advanced Potions textbook in his FIFTH year, although it is now a sixth year text. The Pensieve scene where he's tormented by > James took place, if you remember, after they had just sat one of > their OWL exams, which take place in fifth year. I am confident that the sectumsempra spell is the same one SS used in the Pensieve > scene ... and that JKR laid this as an early clue for wide awake HBP > readers as to the HBP's identity. Carol responds: I don't think we can call it a "fact" that Severus was using the book in his fifth year. I'm not even sure there's any basis for speculation of that nature. We do know that the so-called Prank (in which Sirius Black lured Severus into the Shrieking Shack when Remus Lupin had turned into a werewolf) occurred when Sirius was sixteen--almost certainly during sixth year. That action, which was much more dangerous than the merely humiliating Pensieve incident at the end of fifth year, may have prompted Severus to invent the Sectumsempra spell, which he then worked out in the margins of his NEWT Potions book. I don't think that the spell Severus uses on James, which merely cuts his face, is Sectumsempra, which would have left James lying in a pool of his own blood, with all the sixth years who witnessed it screaming "Murder!" as Moaning Myrtle did. It's probably a variant of the stinging hex. (I have the spell name "Relashio" in my head for some reason--was that used in the DoM fight or am I just imagining it?) Anyway, if you look closely at the description of the effects of the two spells, it's clear that Sectumsempra is much more dangerous. I don't think it had been invented yet. I agree with the comment I snipped that the small, cramped handwriting of Severus's DADA exam was a clue, as was his detailed knowledge of that subject. It's not surprising that he was a Potions genius--that much is evident from the memorized Potion formulas that appear on the board when he merely points his wand at it, and from other evidence as well (wolfbane potion, veritaserum, etc.), but that exam was the first clue we had that his interest in DADA was also genuine and deep. As for where the book came from, I've said in another post that I think Severus left it behind on the last day of his seventh year. He'd memorized everything in it--the original potions, his shortcuts, his invented spells--and no longer needed it. Slughorn, who used the same textbook every year, probably "collected" it as a spare without even looking at it and brought it with him when he returned to Hogwarts. (I don't think Snape used a textbook in his Potions classes, or if he did, it probably involved theory rather than Potion recipes. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi," mentioned in several HP books, ought logically to be the Herbology text, though Snape may occasionally refer to it. That would be Harry's source of information regarding aconite (if he'd read the book), but it wouldn't help him with bezoars or the Draught of Living Death. (I'm referring, of course, to Harry's first-ever class with Snape, the one in which Snape first mentioned the magical multiple antidote that would ultimately save Ron's life.) I agree with the posters who say that Snape's surprise at Harry's Potions success (followed by a searching look that can only indicate Legilimency) and his shock and anger when Harry uses Sectumsempra on Draco indicate that he didn't plant the book. I don't think Dumbledore did, either. That leaves only Slughorn, who may have known the book was Severus Snape's and intended Harry to have it so he would appear to be a Potions prodigy, but I really don't see any need for that. Harry was already the jewel in the Slug Club. Carol P.S. Note to Valky: Didn't you suggest that some of the curses on the Horcruxes might have been Snape's inventions? I don't see how that's possible since he was about eleven when Voldemort returned from his wanderings, transformed beyond recognition, and began recruiting followers. All of the Horcruxes (with the possible exception of Nagini) would already have been created at that point. C. From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 00:39:20 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lupin/Tonks and RL experiences - werewolfism In-Reply-To: <1123492902.1156.28793.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050809003920.30706.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137019 Lynda wrote: An Guz: I think you may be right about Lupin being a metaphor for an HIV infected person. Susan wrote: But of course the metaphor of him as a person with AIDS would also imply strongly that he is a gay man. Lynda says: There is certainly an argument for that. However, Lupin explains in the course of the books that he received the bite as a young child, and not of his own volition (not that I think anyone goes out looking to become HIV infected) but the theory is tenuous at best. Lynda From zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 04:18:05 2005 From: zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com (zeldaricdeau) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 04:18:05 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137020 zeldaricdeau mistankenly wrote: "because she is Irma Prince and recognized it. :)" when she meant to say: because she is Eileen Prince and recognized it. :) -ZR (who needs to go sleep now) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 06:40:43 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 06:40:43 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Get His Own Phoenix?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abadgerfan2" wrote: > Harry will need help in book 7, as he continues to mature and grow > in his magical powers. ..., what about the idea of Harry ending up > with his own Phoenix ...? > > If it is true that Dumbledore will always be present at Hogwarts as > long as there are people there who are loyal to him, surely Harry > has now shown sufficient loyalty to have earned the continued aid of > Dumbledore in the transcended form of the phoenix that Harry thought > he may have seen flying away from Dumbledore's funeral near the end > of Book 6! ... > > Any thoughts or variations on this theme are more than welcome! > > Jim bboyminn: Well, you are saying that Harry will get /A/ Phoenix, but Phoenix are very rare and they don't live in England. They are solitary creatures who live in high mountains, and only very rarely do they bond with humans. So, unless Harry travels to Egypt, India, or China and spends a substantial amount of time exploring the mountains, it's unlikely he will ever come across a Phoenix, which mean that, No, he will not get /a/ Phoenix. But, I have always hoped the Harry would inherit Dumbledore's Phoenix, Fawkes. Fawkes has always seemed very fond of and connected to Harry, and I think Fawkes could make an extremely effective ally for Harry. JKR has hinted that Harry will get another pet of sort during the series, I had always hoped it would be Fawkes, but it seems that now Harry has inherited Buckbeak, and I'm wondering if that is the pet in question. The odds of Harry coming across a Phoenix other than Fawkes is extremely unlikely, but I still hold out some hope that if Fawkes doesn't bond himself to Harry, he at least stick around to help him now and then. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 9 08:46:52 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:46:52 -0400 Subject: Not-Quite Werewolf!Bill Message-ID: <003801c59cbe$e4253490$49c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137022 Juli: I think you are mistaken, werewolves can work, I mean the law doesn't forbid it, it's just that nobody gives them work. Sirius in OoP, when he appears at the chimeney to talk to Harry, Harry starts complaining about Umbridge, then Sirius says "You should hear Remus talk about her", why? "She TRIED to pass an anti-werewolf law" I'm paraphrasing here from memory, but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes CathyD now: "'Does Lupin know her?' asked Harry quickly....'No,' said Sirius, 'but she drafted a bit of anti-werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it almost impossible for him to get a job.'" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 9 09:07:02 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:07:02 -0400 Subject: Percy and the Twins Message-ID: <003c01c59cc1$b57fcd00$49c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137023 Betsy Hp: >>They sold to Death Eaters. CathyD now: Who says? Do you think for a second that Fred or George would have taken Malfoy into the back of the store? I don't. Not unless they were Imperiused. Or that they would have taken anyone else back there that they suspected of being on the other side? Not me. Crabbe and Goyle wouldn't even get a peek in there...nor Montague or Flint, or anybody else F&G know are Slytherin/DE. At this point, not even Percy would get a peek behind that curtain. Perhaps someone they know and trust was in there, under an Imperious curse (or under an invisibility cloak?), and bought or nicked the stuff. " '--- pocket anything, you, and you'll pay in more than Galleons!' George added warningly to a small boy who hastily whipped his hand out of the tub labelled: Edible Dark Marks... George pushed back a curtain beside the Muggle tricks and Harry saw a darker, *less crowded room*. The packaging on the products lining these shelves was more subdued." Less crowded because only friends/well known customers are in there? They took Harry back there...not Ron. Not because they didn't want Mum to know; Dad would know already. Verity didn't send the customer looking for a joke cauldron to the back to find Fred and George...she went to get them. Ron's only guessing it was F&G's Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder, and how many times has he been wrong? If Fred and George can import the stuff from Peru so can lots of other people...those down Knockturn Alley perhaps? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Aug 9 09:06:59 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:06:59 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137024 Jujube wrote: > 3. The symbols of these elements are: cup, pentacle, rod, and sword. > > 5. The 4 symbolic items already correspond to 3 known items which > come from the founders: the pentacle (locket--Slytherin), the cup > (Hufflepuff) and the sword(Gryffindor), 2 of which we know are > Horcruxes and one of which--the sword--we know is not a Horcrux and > is not going to be one. > > 7. The "missing item" from the Tarot card is the wand. Fantastic post!! My major problem with it is that the ring and the locket were both hidden in places that were symbolic to Voldemort and were protected by powerful magic. If he had managed to get hold of Ravenclaw's wand, how and why would he leave it with Ollivander? He clearly doesn't want anyone to know about his Horcruxes, so it seems unlikely that he would confide in Ollivander. If we are considering Tarot cards; The High Priestess, or Female Pope. A woman crowned with a high mitre or TIARA (her head encircled by a veil), a stole (or a solar cross) upon her breast, and the Book of Science open in her hand. She represents Science, Wisdom, or Knowledge (i.e. RAVENCLAW). Harry places a TIARA on top of an old bust as a means to refind his potions book in the Room of Requirement. Therefore it is possible that VOldemort HAS placed one of his Horcruxes in the Room of Requirement!! Brothergib From mcandrew at bigpond.com Tue Aug 9 09:37:17 2005 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (Little lama) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:37:17 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: FIFTH year text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137025 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Little lama" wrote: > > > > I am confident > that the sectumsempra spell is the same one SS used in the Pensieve scene ... > > > Carol responds: > I don't think we can call it a "fact" that Severus was using the book > in his fifth year. I'm not even sure there's any basis for speculation > of that nature. We do know that the so-called Prank (in which Sirius > Black lured Severus into the Shrieking Shack when Remus Lupin had > turned into a werewolf) occurred when Sirius was sixteen--almost > certainly during sixth year. That action, which was much more > dangerous than the merely humiliating Pensieve incident at the end of > fifth year, may have prompted Severus to invent the Sectumsempra > spell, which he then worked out in the margins of his NEWT Potions book. Lama: Do we know that The Prank happened in sixth year? It is speculatively listed there in the HP Lexicon timeline, but I'm not sure there's any canon evidence for that. Unless Sirius was younger than Snape, which to me seems somewhat more unlikely than not, considering his overbearing demeanour towards him, Sirius would have turned seventeen in the first half of sixth year, i.e. before Snape's 17th birthday on 9 January. This is why I've assumed The Prank took place in fifth year. I can't think of any particular reason why The Prank would necessarily have occurred after the Snape's Worst Memory incident, except that there would then be a logical progression from a less serious bullying incident on to a more serious one. But things don't always happen as tidily as that.. We know that there were many and various incidents between Severus and the Marauders throughout their school years, and I doubt if they would have rigidly followed a pattern of relentlessly increasing gravity. On the other hand, I do like your suggestion that Severus's invention of this vicious spell was prompted by his having felt he was in actual danger from these attacks, rather than by mere spite and desire to injure - however much in character that would have been. > I don't think that the spell Severus uses on James, which merely cuts > his face, is Sectumsempra, which would have left James lying in a pool > of his own blood, with all the sixth years who witnessed it screaming > "Murder!" as Moaning Myrtle did. It's probably a variant of the > stinging hex. (I have the spell name "Relashio" in my head for some > reason--was that used in the DoM fight or am I just imagining it?) > Anyway, if you look closely at the description of the effects of the > two spells, it's clear that Sectumsempra is much more dangerous. I > don't think it had been invented yet. Lama: To my mind, the spell Snape used in the Worst Memory incident, rather than being a different curse, seemed more like an embryonic version of Sectumsempra that didn't quite make it to the fullblown stage ... very much akin to Harry's rather feeble early attempts at a Patronus. This half baked attempt at a curse would have fitted well with the rest of Severus's generally unsatisfactory performance in the Worst Memory scene, which was (quite inexplicably) far below his usual level of effectiveness. I can only attribute this to his being overawed by the 'four on one' effect of the marauders' attack, but it's all rather odd, because I have the feeling that adult Snape could quite possibly have wiped the floor with James Potter in a duel. As for the stinging hex, which was used accidentally on Snape by Harry during an Occlumency lesson, my impression of this was that it was more like an actual sting that left a swelling and had Snape rubbing his wrist as he did, rather than something that caused a cut or bleeding. Carol > As for where the book came from, I've said in another post that I > think Severus left it behind on the last day of his seventh year. He'd > memorized everything in it--the original potions, his shortcuts, his > invented spells--and no longer needed it. Slughorn, who used the same > textbook every year, probably "collected" it as a spare without even > looking at it and brought it with him when he returned to Hogwarts. Lama: Maybe... IMO Snape would be the type to hold on to his favourite textbook which also contained his original spells, and probably wouldn't want to carelessly leave behind/give away any of his precious intellectual property to anyone else, either. I assumed that he kept the book, brought it back to Hogwarts for use as a reference when he started teaching, and finally left it behind when he changed jobs, having forgotten it was still lying at the bottom of his stores cupboard. > Carol > > P.S. Note to Valky: Didn't you suggest that some of the curses on the > Horcruxes might have been Snape's inventions? I don't see how that's > possible since he was about eleven when Voldemort returned from his > wanderings, transformed beyond recognition, and began recruiting > followers. All of the Horcruxes (with the possible exception of > Nagini) would already have been created at that point. C. Lama: Good point ... I had thought of Snape as Voldemort's Potions Manager and hence the probable creator of the Horcrux's protective potion, which of course would explain why only he could cure Dumbledore of its effects. This would have been possible if the Horcruxes were not hidden in their final locations until some years after they were created. Cheers, Lama From Nanagose at aol.com Tue Aug 9 11:19:01 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:19:01 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: FIFTH year text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137026 Carol: > I don't think that the spell Severus uses on James, which merely > cuts his face, is Sectumsempra, which would have left James lying in > a pool of his own blood, with all the sixth years who witnessed it > screaming "Murder!" as Moaning Myrtle did. Christina: Let's look at the canon: (OotP, US, page 647) "But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood." (end quote) This was not just a cut- it was a gash and it was deep enough to send blood flying off his face and onto his robes. JKR makes special mention in HBP of Harry's wand movement when he casts Sectumsempra: "waving his wand wildly." Malfoy's injuries are describes as looking like they were coming from "an invisible sword." I think JKR meant for us to liken Sectumsempra to a sword-like spell- the way you move your wand is the way the spell will cut your opponent. Harry moved his wand wildly, so Malfoy was cut all over. Snape directed his wand right at James (probably just giving it a little flick) and therefore used Sectumsempra in a much more controlled manner, only cutting his face. I think it makes a lot of sense for JKR to have had Snape use the spell in the pensieve memory. She likes to sneak things in early before they really become important, and why have Snape cast any old spell when he could be casting a special one he made up himself? >Lama: >Do we know that The Prank happened in sixth year? Christina: I actually can't find any canon that comes right out and says it, but I'm still pretty convinced that it happened in sixth year. Lama: >I can't think of any particular >reason why The Prank would necessarily have occurred after the >Snape's Worst Memory incident, Christina: I think that James's running to save Snape had to have occured when James was on the upswing from his bullying behavior (so after the OWL incident), and was quite possibly one of the things that showed he had shaped up his behavior enough to be Head Boy. Sixth year makes sense because this is, supposedly, when this transformation took place. The OWL incident happens at the very end of fifth year, so the next opportunity for the Prank would be sixth year. Also, I can't imagine that James and Sirius would be so nasty to Snape if he already knew Lupin's secret at that point. Snape already threatens them ("You wait," he says, which is actually really chilling in light of what we know now about Snape's involvement in the Potters' death). We know that the Marauder/Snape feud continued after the Prank, but I would think that the Marauders would be too scared to really heavily bully Snape, particularly in a crowd of people, when he could blurt out at any time, "Yeah, but sucks your friend's a werewolf!" The feud probably continued in a quieter, more sneaky way. Christina From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Aug 9 11:31:29 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:31:29 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > Jujube wrote: > > 3. The symbols of these elements are: cup, pentacle, rod, and > sword. > > > > 5. The 4 symbolic items already correspond to 3 known items which > > come from the founders: the pentacle (locket--Slytherin), the cup > > (Hufflepuff) and the sword(Gryffindor), 2 of which we know are > > Horcruxes and one of which--the sword--we know is not a Horcrux and > > is not going to be one. > > > > 7. The "missing item" from the Tarot card is the wand. > > Fantastic post!! My major problem with it is that the ring and the > locket were both hidden in places that were symbolic to Voldemort > and were protected by powerful magic. On the other hand, the diary was in Lucius Malfoy's possession and he managed to pass it to Ginny contrary to Voldemort's wishes. > If he had managed to get hold of Ravenclaw's wand, how and why > would he leave it with Ollivander? He clearly doesn't want anyone > to know about his Horcruxes, so it seems unlikely that he would > confide in Ollivander. A few points: 1. We don't know which "side" Ollivander is on. 2. He left the diary with Lucius, and I do not think Lucius knew that it was a Horcrux. 3. At least 2 Death Eaters handled Horcruxes: a. Lucius and the diary (I sound like a broken record). b. RAB and the locket 4. At least some of the Death Eaters knew what the Horcruxes were: a. In GoF Voldemort says, and I'm paraphrasing, "You, who knew what steps I took to ensure my immortality." b. From the note he left in the locket, RAB knew what a Horcrux was, that the locket was a Horcrux, and how to undo the spell to steal it. > If we are considering Tarot cards; > > The High Priestess, or Female Pope. A woman crowned with a high > mitre or TIARA (her head encircled by a veil), a stole (or a solar > cross) upon her breast, and the Book of Science open in her hand. > She represents Science, Wisdom, or Knowledge (i.e. RAVENCLAW). > > Harry places a TIARA on top of an old bust as a means to refind his > potions book in the Room of Requirement. Therefore it is possible > that VOldemort HAS placed one of his Horcruxes in the Room of > Requirement!! Yes, I know both of those things. But The Magus card holds the 4 symbols without having to go and import other symbols from other cards. This is what makes me lean toward the wand v. the tiara. IMO, the books are much much much more straightforward than some folks give them credit for. IMO more complicated theories--like having to reference additional tarot cards to make items work--seem out of place in JKR's style. There's an overarching theme at work, a well-knit system of symbols from alchemy, mythology, and the like, but IMO getting from point A to point B in her story is ususally easier than harder. That being said, I do think the presence of the tiara is curious. But sometimes, as Dumbledore says, a mouth organ is just a mouth organ. jujube From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 9 11:42:07 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:42:07 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: FIFTH year text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137028 > Lama: > > Do we know that The Prank happened in sixth year? It is > speculatively listed there in the HP Lexicon timeline, but I'm not > sure there's any canon evidence for that. Unless Sirius was younger > than Snape, which to me seems somewhat more unlikely than not, > considering his overbearing demeanour towards him, Sirius would have > turned seventeen in the first half of sixth year, i.e. before > Snape's 17th birthday on 9 January. Potioncat: Do we know? No, we don't. I tend to think that Severus was guessing at Sirius' age based on his own age. There is lots of time for the prank between OWLs and Jan 9. We have June, Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec. I think it could have happened as early as the week following the DADA OWL, because there is a week of school after Harry takes his OWLs, but also could have been any time during 6th year. It depends on whether 16 was specific or estimated. > Lama: > On the other hand, I do like your suggestion that Severus's > invention of this vicious spell was prompted by his having felt he > was in actual danger from these attacks, rather than by mere spite > and desire to injure - however much in character that would have > been. Potioncat: This does make a lot of sense, and to this Snapaholic, it makes the spell almost seem reasonable. If I thought a werewolf might come after me, I'd like to have that spell. > > Lama: > > To my mind, the spell Snape used in the Worst Memory incident, > rather than being a different curse, seemed more like an embryonic > version of Sectumsempra that didn't quite make it to the fullblown > stage ... very much akin to Harry's rather feeble early attempts at > a Patronus. Potioncat: Well, that was sort of my interpretation. Or along the lines of the attempted Crucio that Harry threw at Bella. "You have to mean it." The intensity of the damage could be varied. But now I really don't think it was the same curse at all. Partly because Snape knows Harry saw that spell in the Pensieve. Although both curses could be under the heading of cutting spells? From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Aug 9 11:56:22 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:56:22 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > This is very interesting. And I think that there is something > that we should note bout Voldemorts Horcruxes as opposed to the > Four Houses at Hogwarts as they were set up by JKR. > > The Four Houses - > Slytherin - Water - Cups > Gryffindor - Fire - Wands > Hufflepuff - Pentacles - Earth > Ravenclaw - Air - Sword > > The Founders Objects as Jujube suggests - > Slytherin Pendant - Pentacle - Earth > Gryffindor Sword - Sword - Air > Hufflepuff Chalice - Cup - Water > Ravenclaw Wand - Wand - Fire > > Voldemorts Horcruxes - > Slytherin Pendant - Pentacle - Earth > Gryffindor ?...? - Sword/Wand - Air/Fire > Hufflepuff Chalice - Cup - Water > Ravenclaw ?...? - Sword/Wand - Air/Fire > > We do seem to have a wand belonging in The Ravenclaw position. Yep. At first I was, I dunno, alarmed? because the articles didn't line up with the houses, but then I remembered that phoenixes don't die every month either ;-); JKR takes the ideas and makes them her own so they have more emotional or dramatic resonance. [reluctant snip of very interestng Egyptian mythology] > The Egyptian Mythology goes on and on with possibilities, > thousands of them. So this conjecture may not lead anywhere at > all. I just thought I'd mention it though. Thank you for doing so--JKR draws quite heavily on Egyptian mythology in the series (along with alchemy, which is why I find it so fascinating that she's used a phoenix as a phoenix on a sign in ancient Egypt denoted an alchemist, and the book is very very heavy on alchemical symbols), so this may indeed be undergirding her structure for the Horcruxes. Or I'm completely wrong (but learning a lot in the process!). ;-) jujube From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 12:03:05 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:03:05 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: FIFTH year text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137030 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Little lama" > wrote: > > > > > > I am confident > > that the sectumsempra spell is the same one SS used in the > Pensieve scene ... > > > > > > Carol responds: > > I don't think we can call it a "fact" that Severus was using the > book > > in his fifth year. I'm not even sure there's any basis for > speculation > > of that nature. We do know that the so-called Prank (in which > Sirius > > Black lured Severus into the Shrieking Shack when Remus Lupin had > > turned into a werewolf) occurred when Sirius was sixteen--almost > > certainly during sixth year. That action, which was much more > > dangerous than the merely humiliating Pensieve incident at the end > of > > fifth year, may have prompted Severus to invent the Sectumsempra > > spell, which he then worked out in the margins of his NEWT Potions > book. Tammy now: There was a spell from Snape's potion book that was used during the "Worst Memory" scene, but it wasn't Sectumsempra, it was Levicorpus. Harry used it on Ron in Chapter 12 of HBP, then tries to use it on Snape as Snape flees Hogwarts in Chapter 28. That's the spell that Harry uses that triggers the rant by Snape of 'you try to use my own spells against me just like your father' (paraphrasing). So to me, it's clear that Snape had at least been using that book for a little while before 6th year. However remember that it was his mother's book. The rest of the class did NOT have to be using the same textbook in order for Snape to already be reading it. Snape is a bit like Hermione, I think, in that if he's interested in something he'll go find books about it. His mother's Advanced Potions book would be just the thing for him to read, re-read, and mark up long before he ever got into NEWT level potions. Tammy From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Aug 9 12:24:15 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:24:15 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137031 > > 1. We don't know which "side" Ollivander is on. I agree. He refers to Voldemort's actions as 'great' in PS/SS. > IMO, the books are much much much more straightforward than some > folks give them credit for. I completely, completely agree. Which is where I have the problem with Ollivander. He has not shown up as a Death Eater. Voldemort has not referred to Ollivander before. So the question remains - why would he entrust his Horcrux to Ollivander?? The only logical conclusion I can come up with is that Voldemort wants the wand, but has yet to convert it into a Horcrux. This would fit in with Ollivander being kidnapped and maybe sending the wand to Neville. Is it possible that Voldemort is still looking for the item of Ravenclaw's AND Gryffindorr's to create his last Horcruxes. He is looking for the wand, and now DD is gone may come looking for the sword. I certainly don't believe Nagini is a Horcrux!! Brothergib From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Aug 9 13:29:23 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:29:23 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > I completely, completely agree. Which is where I have the problem > with Ollivander. He has not shown up as a Death Eater. Voldemort > has not referred to Ollivander before. So the question remains - > why would he entrust his Horcrux to Ollivander?? Leaving aside the issue that we have not yet have all of the Death Eaters named for us--Voldemort noted in GoF that some had not shown up, and then in HBP we learn new names of DEs in the battle at Hogwarts--it is possible that, if Ollivander is not a DE that he doesn't know the wand is enchanted. We know, from the CoS, that not every Horcrux is difficult to obtain, handle, etc. And if Ollivander is a DE, then he may have taken the wand and hidden it. > The only logical conclusion I can come up with is that Voldemort > wants the wand, but has yet to convert it into a Horcrux. This > would fit in with Ollivander being kidnapped and maybe sending the > wand to Neville. Is it possible that Voldemort is still looking for > the item of Ravenclaw's AND Gryffindorr's to create his last > Horcruxes. He is looking for the wand, and now DD is gone may come > looking for the sword. > > I certainly don't believe Nagini is a Horcrux!! I do. Here's why: 1. From a literary/structure POV: There's only one book left and a LOT of stuff to wrap up. Adding another subplot where Harry has to find 2 Horcruxes instead of one, in addition to finding the rest of them and breaking their curses, and figuring out how to kill the Horcrux and then having the final showdown with Voldemort, is too much for one book to handle. 2. From the POV of trusting the characters: Why would Dumbledore tell Harry things that were not true? Why would he send Harry on a wild goose (snake?) chase, waste precious time, and possibly endanger him for no good reason? If Dumbledore says that the 4 remaining Horcruxes are the locket, the cup, the snake, and the missing item, that's good enoug for me. It's going to be complicated enough for Harry to find these things; why would Dumbledore send him on a pointless quest. 3. From the POV of JKR: she's all but said, in her interview last month, that Harry needs to look for the locket, the cup, the snake, and the missing item. IMO, of course and of course YMMV. jujube From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 9 13:37:49 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:37:49 -0000 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137033 > Sherry Gomes > > I've always thought Remus was meant to represent disability in > > general...Many people still consider those of us with > > disabilities to be monsters of a sort, scary and not quite > > human or not quite as good as able bodied people. > > it's why I'm particularly partial to Remus and would like > > to see him happy and learning to live with and accept his > > condition in the end, not necessarily to do anything heroic, > > but just learning to live with peace and some happiness. > > Rebecca: > Hear hear!! I would love to see Remus Lupin "live happily ever > after". And not because he's a tragic figure but because he's > so gentle and thoughtful, and I've adored him since he was > introduced in POA - long before we discovered his 'furry > little problem'. > > I truly hope that JKR doesn't kill him off. Pippin: Jo has weighed in on the subject of Lupin as metaphor: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2002/110 2-fraser-scotsman.html He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability. ---- I think it's important that Jo says it's the reactions to the condition that are the point of her metaphor, not the condition itself. Jo goes on to say that there's much more backstory to her characters than she can put in the books. I can see Lupin being bisexual, but only as another facet of his deeply divided character, not as a statement about accepting different forms of sexuality. Not that they shouldn't be accepted, I'm just afraid Lupin is not going to end up as a character readers admire. The smoking wand is the disappearance of Fenrir. Last we saw, he was stupefied. He didn't escape with Snape, and yet he seems to be still at large; at least, if he'd been captured, I can't imagine Rufus Scrimgeour not bringing it up as he tries to persuade Harry to help the Ministry. I'm afraid someone in the castle must have rescued Fenny. Dear, dear, who'd do a thing like that? Pippin From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 13:57:15 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:57:15 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137034 Casmir: > It's also a reminder of Ron's dependance > > on Hermione to save his arse, as I doubt he knew how to get rid of > > the birds himself. I mean really, is it so violent to do that if a > > capable wizard is able to vanish the birds immediately? oh, > > yeah...Ron depends on Hermione to do that stuff for him. Phoenixgod2000: > Thats an unfair attack against Ron. She attacked him with magically > conjured constructs, something we haven't seen any other wizard do. > It certainly seems like upper level magic to me, and it wouldn't be > the first time Hermione went beyond her year when it came to > experimenting with spells. Just because Ron couldn't dispel the > birds doesn't mean he is incompetent. They could just be hard to get > rid of. Ginger: Just a bit of a quibble and a point that I don't think has been made: Hermione did attack Ron with conjured constructs, but they were part of the Transfiguration assignment. So, since they were 6th years, it was, indeed, upper level, but not beyond her year (see ch. 14, US p. 284 for details). Hermione was practicing alone in the room when Harry came in. Sure she's mad at Ron, but he's been treating her badly for pretty much all of chapter 14 (from which all these quotes are taken). He's described as "cold-shouldering Ginny and Dean, ... also treating a hurt and bewildered Hermione with an icy, sneering indifference." He was "as touchy and ready to lash out as the average Blast-ended Skrewt." To the team, he was "aggressive", and he had Demelza in tears. He was "surly and grumpy with Hermione." Earlier on the day of the attack, Hermione didn't even come down to breakfast with them as she "had become so tired of Ron's recent unpleasant behaviour". Later she tells Harry "I'm *sick* of Ron at the moment, I don't know what I'm supposed to have done..." (emphasis from the text). Harry knows what Ron is mad about. He has just realized that Hermione probably kissed Viktor in GoF. He's jealous and has been taking it out on her for several days. That much is canon. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Hermione and Ginny had a chat and that Hermione knows that Ron is jealous because she snogged Viktor. But then he goes and snogs Lavender in front of the whole room. Before I go on sounding like I'm against Ron here, I must confess that I was one of those annoying homely girls who tut-tutted when the other girls were doing tonsil exams with their boyfriends, only to be just as showy as they when I did have a boyfriend. Ron's behaviour was, as Ginny said, hypocritical, but I do feel sympathy for Ron "sweet 16 and never been kissed" Weasley. I don't blame him for wanting to show off Lavender's attraction to him, but I do blame him for being so mean to Hermione when she hadn't done anything to deserve it. Nor do I think it was right of Hermione to attack him with birds. Had she performed a "birdie-pie" charm that caused them to poo on his head, I wouldn't have blamed her. At least Harry would have known the "Evanesco" charm to clean it up. So, yeah, she was hurt. I'd say she had a right to be. At least she didn't accio any body parts he may have been planning to use later. Ginger, thinking accio lips. Tsk-tsk, what were you thinking? From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Aug 9 14:05:50 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:05:50 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > > > > I certainly don't believe Nagini is a Horcrux!! > > I do. Here's why: > > 2. From the POV of trusting the characters: Why would Dumbledore > tell Harry things that were not true? Why would he send Harry on a > wild goose (snake?) chase, waste precious time, and possibly endanger > him for no good reason? In HBP (and the subsequent interview) JKR has set up the possibility that DD makes mistakes - and when he makes them they tend to be big! Of course, there is the other possibility that DD just wants Harry to be aware that living things can be Horcruxes (leading onto Harry a Horcrux etc etc.) > > 3. From the POV of JKR: she's all but said, in her interview last > month, that Harry needs to look for the locket, the cup, the snake, > and the missing item. > What she said was - 'Harry now knows ? well he believes he knows ? what he's facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, `There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.' The phrase 'believes he knows' is very interesting here! It suggests that all is not what it seems. Brothergib From d.marchel at comcast.net Tue Aug 9 11:39:59 2005 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:39:59 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137036 jujube wrote: > 7. The "missing item" from the Tarot card is the wand. > > 8. There is an old wand given a place of honor in Ollivander's shop. > > 9. Ollivander is missing and the shop is empty. > > 10. Wands are powerful magical objects. I was reading the interview with JK and the Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet founders yesterday (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml). It struck me that JK said, "Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books." I thought about it basically all night. ^_^;; I kept asking myself, what objects did LV have before he killed Harry's parents? One thing that kept jumping into my mind was his wand. The more I thought about it, the more intrigued I was. His body was destroyed the night he killed the Potters. (The house was also destroyed for some odd reason that we still don't know about, but that's for another post ~_^) So his wand must've been lost somewhere in the rubble of the Potter's home. Yet, by the end of book 4, LV has his wand back. Who got it for him? And why? You would think LV was powerful enough to use any wand, why have one of his followers risk their lives and to get that wand? Perhaps because the wand was a horcrux. I think there's also a possibility that LV's wand might be somehow tied to the founders, in this case probably even Ravenclaw. I would bet that Fawkes was alive during the founding of Hogwarts, and he could've given his two feathers back then. Or, maybe he gave one feather back then (for Ravenclaw's/Voldy's wand) and then given a second feather much later, perhaps after LV's first defeat (for Harry's wand). Interesting about Ollivander's disappearance! I interpreted it as JK giving us clues as to what one of the Horcruxes might be. ~Dysisgirl From d.marchel at comcast.net Tue Aug 9 11:13:39 2005 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:13:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137037 I think it is worth mentioning that Snape left his Pensieve in Hogwarts. He was surprised to learn that the Death Eaters were in the castle - Flitwick had to run all the way down to his office and inform him! Snape then went to the tower and killed Dumbledore as we all know - but then he fled - without any of his personal belongings! Perhaps Snape has some important information in that Pensieve? In Book 4, Ch 25 (p.471 in the US hardcover version), Harry is out of his bed, under the invisibility cloak, with his foot stuck in the stairs while Crouch!Moody, Snape, and Filch are all standing around him. Filch begins to mention that someone broke into Snape's office, and Moody asks "'Not hiding anything else in your office, are you?' Harry saw the edge of Snape's sallow face turn a nasty brick color, the vein in his temple pulsing more rapidly." What if the Pensieve held very important information? In Book 5, before one of the Occlumancy lessons, Snape pulls out three memories and puts them into his Pensieve. I've heard theories that one of these memories could be the redemption scene, where Dumbledore pardons Snape and begins to trust him. But I was thinking, with all the theories of Dumbledore's planned death out right now, what if Snape also put the memory of of the plan in there? DD also may have done this in his own Pensieve. Either way, I think Harry could learn quite a bit from either Pensieve, and I wish he would! We could learn sooo much from those Pensieve's. Before I go, I should also mention that Snape is very intelligent. He's been a spy (whether a good spy for the Order or a bad spy for LV) for a very long time, and sooner or later he will realize that having his Pensieve back where anyone can get to it is extremely dangerous to his motives, whether good or bad. I think we can expect to see Snape returning to Hogwarts to get that Pensieve back, and any other objects that he thinks might be detremental to his cause if anyone found them. Dysis. From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Aug 9 14:23:33 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:23:33 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" > wrote: > > > I certainly don't believe Nagini is a Horcrux!! > > > > I do. Here's why: > > > > 2. From the POV of trusting the characters: Why would > > Dumbledore tell Harry things that were not true? Why would he > > send Harry on a wild goose (snake?) chase, waste precious time, > > and possibly endanger him for no good reason? > > In HBP (and the subsequent interview) JKR has set up the > possibility that DD makes mistakes - and when he makes them they > tend to be big! Of course, there is the other possibility that DD > just wants Harry to be aware that living things can be Horcruxes > (leading onto Harry a Horcrux etc etc.) The first time I read Dumbledore's comment -------------- "Naturally I do, but as I have already proven to you, I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being ? forgive me ? rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger." -------------- I took it to be a foreshadowing of his misjudgment of Snape. By the end of the book, and rereading the second time, I believe that even more firmly. I believe when push came to shove, Snape chose to save his own live, by killing Dumbledore. I believe that from a dramatic or storytelling point of view, this action, coupled with this statement, is pretty much the pinacle of JKR's achievement in this book. The betrayal of Dumbledore by Snape is one of the riskiest things JKR could have done, and it gives the book, and now the series, an emotional richness it would otherwise not be able to attain. And now in Book 7 she will be able to show us how Snape attempts to redeem himself, in a parallel--but not exact--scene to the scene were Dumbldore tries to convince Draco to give up his task. I know that this is probably the hottest of the hot button issues in HBP, but I am convinced that although JKR has made every single thing about Snape deliberately ambiguous, I think his actions have been true to his own evil purposes. And because they were not part of some big plan he and Dumbledore had concocted, I believe his redemption is going to be that much more valuable from an emotional and thematic POV. But that probably belongs in another thread. ;-) > > 3. From the POV of JKR: she's all but said, in her interview > > last month, that Harry needs to look for the locket, the cup, > > the snake, and the missing item. > > > What she said was - > 'Harry now knows ? well he believes he knows ? what he's facing. > Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't > want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, `There are > four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for > Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.' Right. None of her quote contradicts the contention I made. She reaffirmed that we can trust Dumbledore on the 4 items he names. > The phrase 'believes he knows' is very interesting here! It > suggests that all is not what it seems. Not necessarily. It could mean that Harry has a limited view of what he truly needs to do and that it's going to get wider and more complicated as he actually had to go and track down and destroy the Horcruxes. Again, my personal bias is that the Book 7 is not going to introduce any convoluted things into it. JKR sacrificed a lot to get allllllll of that exposition into HBP; now she's going for the action/plot payoff. jujube From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 14:29:06 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:29:06 -0000 Subject: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: FIFTH year text/ Which spell Snape used In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137039 > Potioncat: But now I really don't > think it was the same curse at all. Partly because Snape knows Harry > saw that spell in the Pensieve. Although both curses could be under > the heading of cutting spells? Alla: Oh, but Potioncat, don't you remember that person can modify his own memory before putting it in the pensieve? :-) Since it is likely, IMO, that it was Sectusemptra ( whether embrionic version or not), I SPECULATE that Snape did more damage to James that it was shown not less, Harry just did not see it yet. After HBP I am very inclined to believe the very worst of Snape, NOT the best of him. Not that I was always ready to believe that prior to HBP, mind you. :-) But now it is intensified many times. Oh, did I tell you that now I am almost convinced that Snape indeed left Pensieve on the table for Harry to see? > Tammy now: > There was a spell from Snape's potion book that was used during the > "Worst Memory" scene, but it wasn't Sectumsempra, it was Levicorpus. > So to me, it's clear that Snape had at least been using that book for > a little while before 6th year. Alla: Yes, me too. Especially because Remus says that many people in the ir fifth year were using it ( paraphrasing loosely) Just my opinion of course, Alla. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 14:40:47 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:40:47 -0000 Subject: The "row" in the forest--Snape doesn't want to do any more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137040 "justcarol67" wrote: > I think he [Snape] begins by bluffing, > pretending that Voldemort has told him > the plan, and he is banking on the two > women not revealing to Voldemort that > Narcissa has come to him for help. Snape would have to be retarded if he made an unbreakable vow if he didn't even know what he was vowing to do. He made a vow to help Draco in any way he could to kill Dumbledore, something he had every intention of doing anyway. > Snape has made so many attempts to keep > Harry alive. I don't think he would have > agreed to an Unbreakable Vow to do any > such thing--just as he doesn't kill Harry > and won't even let the DEs Crucio him at > the end of the book. Yes I agree, in fact I think the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so much is that Snape made a Unbreakable Vow to protect the life of Harry Potter until Voldemort was dead, and Dumbledore thinks this proves Snape is a good guy. Dumbledore was wrong. Snape wants to be the number one wizard in the world but Voldemort stands in his way, Snape heard the entire prophecy (although he only told Voldemort the first half) and he knows Harry is the only one who has a chance of killing Voldemort so he wants Harry alive and healthy. Snape killed the only other wizard that stood in his path of world domination at the end of book 6. Eggplant From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 9 14:54:23 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:54:23 -0000 Subject: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137041 > Alla: > > Oh, but Potioncat, don't you remember that person can modify his >own memory before putting it in the pensieve? :-) Potioncat: Well, we've seen the memory can be modified before being bottled. We weren't shown how. In fact...I just don't remember (my poor memory is constantly being modified and I don't like it one bit!) do we even see how the memory is put into the bottle? But if the memory was taken out of the head, and placed in the Pensieve, the memory in the head would already be modified. That wasn't the situation in Slughorn's case. I realise this is one of our many "agree to disagree" points. But I think the "Worst Memory" is accurate, but incomplete. What I always wondered about is this: Snape cuts James across the face and blood spatters, but nothing else is said about it! We don't see James wiping blood away, or curing the cut or crying out in surprise or pain. Hmmm, I wonder if it leaves a lightening shaped scar? Sorry, this is hardly the place to levitate, erm I mean hardly the place for levity. Alla: > Oh, did I tell you that now I am almost convinced that Snape indeed > left Pensieve on the table for Harry to see? Potioncat: But to what point? And how was he to know they would be interrupted? > > Tammy now: > > There was a spell from Snape's potion book that was used during the > > "Worst Memory" scene, but it wasn't Sectumsempra, it was Levicorpus. > > So to me, it's clear that Snape had at least been using that book > for > > a little while before 6th year. > > > Alla: > > Yes, me too. Especially because Remus says that many people in the ir > fifth year were using it ( paraphrasing loosely) Potioncat: And this seemed oddly casual, given that Harry had told Lupin about the "Worst Memory". I get the feeling Lupin knows something about the spells or about the Half-Blood Prince that he isn't telling. Here's one possible chain of events for Levicorpus: Snape invents it, teaches his Slytherin Gang, Regulus learns it and teaches Sirius who teaches James who uses it on Severus. But still, if Lupin is being truthful, lots of students learned it. From tonyaminton at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 15:06:56 2005 From: tonyaminton at gmail.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:06:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137042 Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? Now Tonya: I had an idea on why the book was left in the Potions classroom. I have several books (mostly Harry Potter books and the classrooms books) these are my favorites and I am constantly carrying them around because I am checking facts or looking up references. Therefore I find that after I have checked what I needed I tend to leave them around the house in odd places. Just like the other day I was looking for COS and you know where I found it?? In the pottery studio. I don't even remember taking it in there. So I expect that at some point Snape was using the book and checking facts then got caught up in something else and forgot that he left it in the classroom. This could also be adult life that brings on this lack of memory. Anyway I can feasibly see how this book was left in the classroom. What do you all think?? Tonya From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 15:11:25 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:11:25 -0000 Subject: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137043 > > Alla: > > > > Oh, but Potioncat, don't you remember that person can modify his > >own memory before putting it in the pensieve? :-) > > Potioncat: > Well, we've seen the memory can be modified before being bottled. We > weren't shown how. In fact...I just don't remember (my poor memory is > constantly being modified and I don't like it one bit!) do we even > see how the memory is put into the bottle? Alla: Actually, you are not the only one. :-) I don't have the book with me either, but I think that when Slugghorn gives Harry a normal memory, he does put it in the bottle. I can be very wrong about it though. Potioncat: > But if the memory was taken out of the head, and placed in the > Pensieve, the memory in the head would already be modified. That > wasn't the situation in Slughorn's case. Alla: True, but I am not saying that situation was analogous, I am just saying that this idea( modifying your own memory) could be here for a reason or for no reason at all. :-) Besides, Dumbledore stresses that Slugghorn did a poor job out of modifying his memory. It suggest to me that people could do a better job out of it. And we all know that Snape is a powerful wizard. :-) Potioncat: > I realise this is one of our many "agree to disagree" points. But I > think the "Worst Memory" is accurate, but incomplete. Alla: The best thing which I get out of arguing with you is that even when we disagree, I often don't feel it. :-) Don't get me wrong, I don't think that we will learn that Maraduers actions were great in this scene, but I do think that we MAY learn or NOT that Snape downplayed the seriousness of his actions. :-) Potioncat: What I always > wondered about is this: > > Snape cuts James across the face and blood spatters, but nothing else > is said about it! We don't see James wiping blood away, or curing the > cut or crying out in surprise or pain. Alla: YES, doesn't it looks strange to you? Don't you think that Snape may have at least erased some pieces of this memory? > Alla: > > Oh, did I tell you that now I am almost convinced that Snape indeed > > left Pensieve on the table for Harry to see? > > Potioncat: > But to what point? And how was he to know they would be interrupted? > Alla: I am sorry, could you clarify? What do you mean " to what point"? To what point in the memory Snape wanted Harry to be a witness to? Just my opinion, Alla. From carodave92 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 15:02:45 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:02:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137044 Dysis wrote: > I think it is worth mentioning that Snape left his Pensieve in > Hogwarts. < snip > Carodave replies: I believe that Snape had borrowed DD's pensieve for the occlumency lessons, (but don't have my books at hand to provide canon). In this case, he would have retrieved his memories prior to returning the pensieve to DD. However, the DD's pensieve is still at Hogwarts...presumably filled with DD's memories...interesting. Carodave From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Aug 9 15:24:19 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:24:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003701c59cf6$6abd0eb0$9f21f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137045 Pippin: Jo has weighed in on the subject of Lupin as metaphor: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2002/110 2-fraser-scotsman.html He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability. ---- I think it's important that Jo says it's the reactions to the condition that are the point of her metaphor, not the condition itself. Jo goes on to say that there's much more backstory to her characters than she can put in the books. I can see Lupin being bisexual, but only as another facet of his deeply divided character, not as a statement about accepting different forms of sexuality. Not that they shouldn't be accepted, I'm just afraid Lupin is not going to end up as a character readers admire. The smoking wand is the disappearance of Fenrir. Last we saw, he was stupefied. He didn't escape with Snape, and yet he seems to be still at large; at least, if he'd been captured, I can't imagine Rufus Scrimgeour not bringing it up as he tries to persuade Harry to help the Ministry. I'm afraid someone in the castle must have rescued Fenny. Dear, dear, who'd do a thing like that? Pippin Sherry now: If a person had caused my blindness by malicious intent, I would hardly consider joining that person in crimes against society and helping that person evade capture and punishment, especially knowing he would attack other people and cause them to be disabled as well. I sincerely hope JKR does not end up with ESE Lupin because it would continue the negative stereotypes against werewolves, and by extension, since she says he represents disability, it would continue the negative stereotypes against people with disabilities. Not saying that there aren't plenty of criminals with disabilities, but a lot of the world already thinks we are monsters anyway. I don't think she'll go that way. Besides, i can't bear to think of how Harry would feel if it ended up being true! his father's last remaining friend, a traitor. Sherry From clinicallydead2003 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 13:24:06 2005 From: clinicallydead2003 at yahoo.com (pam) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:24:06 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137046 B.G. wrote: > Why did he take it when he left Hogwarts and why did he bring it > back? > > Did DD know Slughorn had it? > > Did he request that it be given to Harry? Pam: I really don't believe that Harry's possession of the book could have been anything except coincidence. Harry didn't purchase the required book for potions because he believed that he didn't recieve the required mark in his OWLs to continue in Snape's class. Therefore it was a series of complicated events: His exam results, the appointment of Snape as DaDa teacher, and Harry's persuasion of Slughorn that eventually led him to borrow the book for the year. I doubt that Dumbledore knew of the existence of the book, surely he had far more important things on his mind than a fifty year old textbook. Snape no doubt had gotten all the use out of the book that he could and had simply left it behind him when he left Hogwarts, Slughorn being the teacher was clearing out his classroom at the end of term and packed the textbook away as he no doubt did with many other books over the years. a simple action that teachers all over the world do at the end of each year. Then if a new student is in need of a book they have some spare... From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 9 15:33:47 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:33:47 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > But is there somewhere in the book which states love potions can be > worn as perfume and actually be effective? I don't remember this, > but certainly could have missed it. HBP seemed to imply that love > potions need to be ingested. Pat: I broke this off from another thread. In the "SHIP! H/G Indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny" thread, see message 136610 for why I think she's wearing love potion as perfume. And as for knowingly or unknowingly, see that same thread, message #136849 about how Hermione could have unknowingly passed a bottle of the twins' love potion disguised as perfume to Ginny, Del`s idea actually. And then there is the thread, "SHIP: Pirate Ginny" starting with message #133015, in which I think she is doing it intentionally. The book doesn't actually say there is such a thing as love potion perfume. However, Jo showed us in Potions class that love potion fumes have a subtle, and less obvious effect than from ingesting it. And Hermione tells us that she read on the back of a bottle in the twins' shop that their love potions can be owl ordered disguised as perfume or cough potion. So Ginny could have purchased some through Verity the clerk, or Ron might have unknowingly given some to Hermione for Christmas. And she didn't care for it, so could have passed it to Ginny - maybe when she gave Ginny advice to move on from Harry. From loganlongbottom at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 15:00:52 2005 From: loganlongbottom at yahoo.com (Logan) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:00:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137048 Dysis wrote: > I think it is worth mentioning that Snape left his Pensieve in > Hogwarts. He was surprised to learn that the Death Eaters were in the > castle... Snape then went to the tower and killed Dumbledore as we > all know - but then he fled - without any of his personal belongings! > Perhaps Snape has some important information in that Pensieve? Was that Snape's Pensieve? I thought DD was lending it to Snape for the Occlumency lessons. Logan From d.marchel at comcast.net Tue Aug 9 15:41:16 2005 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:41:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137049 Carodave replies: > I believe that Snape had borrowed DD's pensieve for the occlumency > lessons, Dysis: Actually, you're right - I forgot! Book 5, Ch. 24 "Harry's attention was drawn toward the desk, however, where a shallow stone basin engraved with runes and symbols lay in a pool of candlelight. Harry recognized it at once - Dumbledore's Pensieve." Carodave: > However, the DD's pensieve is still at Hogwarts...presumably filled > with DD's memories...interesting. I quite agree. ^_^ Dysis From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue Aug 9 15:49:57 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:49:57 -0000 Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > I think there's a misunderstanding here. I never meant to say that > Arthur sent Percy into the depths of depression or something. I only > meant to say that Arthur flatly denied that Percy could have gotten > any promotion at work because of his own efforts and capacities, and > by doing so stomped all over his son's pride. The best proof for me > that it crushed Percy's pride is the anger with which he replied to > his father. I figure that only someone who has been badly hurt can > throw back such hurtful things. Well, actually I think the reason Percy reacted so badly because he knew Arthur was actually pretty close to the truth. Percy is very ambitious and not stupid. Though he managed to delude himself very well about Fudge, Dumbledore, Umbridge and Harry. He may have convinced himself that Voldemort did not return, but even he must have had difficulties explaining to himself why he did not think anything strange about the messages from Crouch when the man was already dead. > Del replies: > This is the case of anyone who's ever worked for almost any > government, in time of war as well as in time of peace. Scapegoating > people is a *classic* tactic, I don't think there is a single > government who hasn't used it. Actually, we don't know that Percy supports this kind of tactic. Though it would not surprise me if he did. > Percy is not saying that Harry is evil, he's saying he's delusional > and making up stories. That's not the same thing. And it's not > impossible either. Ok, for the sake of arguement, lets assume that Percy really truly believes this about Harry, nothing to do with his own ambitions and career... Here is the boy who saved his sister's LIFE. And who defeated the monster that almost killed his girlfriend. Who has been a friend of the familie for years, has been his brother's best friend and now suddenly has some huge probblems. And what does dear Percy do? He writes a letter to his brother urging him - not to help him out of his delusions, help him get back to sanity or other things a good friend ought to do - but to distance himself from him because associating with Harry would be bad for Ron's career... If that is not despicable I don't know what is. And ofcourse there is the hearing. Percy was there. He heard the testimony of Mrs. Figg. And what does he state in the letter? Not that he thought she did not really see the dementors, not that he thought the evidence was faked, or that the majority of the Wizengamot were wrong in believing the witness, but that Harry got off on a 'mere technicality'. This makes clear that Percy knows very well there is a lot of fishy stuff going on, but does not want to acknowlege that. > Del replies: > First, I think it's unfair to expect Percy to have foreknowledge. Most > of those things had not even happened by the time Percy wrote his letter. > > Second, we don't know what Percy knows or not. How much of what > Umbridge did is public knowledge now, or even Ministry knowledge for > that matter? I personally suspect very little, if anything, or she > wouldn't still be working for the MoM and she wouldn't have showed up > at DD's funeral. I agree, but I think it is still significant that he calls her a delightfull woman. She is very clearly not delightful, unless you like the type. > I'm not saying that Percy is a little saint. I am only saying that > Percy has always had huge psychological issues that were greatly > enhanced by the way his family members related to him. Well, I don't think there is anything wrong with the way his family treated him. He was teased a bit because of his stufyness by his brothers who did not treat him any way different than they treated the rest. Molly clearly loves him and is very supportive, and apart from the row with Arthur we have no evidence whatsoever that Arthur was anything but very proud of his son. I think Percy does not have any huge psychological issues but is a young man blinded by ambition and is now paying the very sad price for his lack of character. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue Aug 9 16:06:52 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:06:52 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: <20050808195434.77513.qmail@web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > My theory, Slughorn planted the book in Harry's hands > so he had a good reason to invite him to the Slug Club > and to help him in a class he may not have been > prepared. Gerry Harry is The Boy Who Lived so Slug has every reason to invite him to the club. He also had an E in potions, so he did not really need a book to help him out. Besides Dlug reacts if he believes Harry is a true genius. If he planted the book that would make him a pretty good actor. I also see no reason for him to do so. Harry is famous enough to fawn over already Gerry From devin.smither at yale.edu Tue Aug 9 16:16:18 2005 From: devin.smither at yale.edu (uilnslcoap) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:16:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137052 I haven't posted her in years, but I can't stand for this. Utterly preposterous. This theory has no merit whatever. Why wasn't Harry going nuts for Ginny the way Ron was for Romilda? If it were love potion that caused his attraction, he'd give no consideration to the idea that Ginny is Ron's sister and therefore out of bounds; he'd just go for her. Why does Ginny stay with Dean all that time if she's using uncanonical "love potion perfume" on Harry? It's clear that love potions smack of scents that one (consciously or subconsciously) associates with romance. Harry didn't smell the love potion Ginny was wearing in Potions; Harry smelled Ginny. There's no room for assuming there can be a love potion perfume when there's no evidence for it AT ALL in canon. Harry likes Ginny. Both Ron and Hermione like that Harry likes Ginny. Big frickin' deal. > for why I think she's wearing love potion as perfume. And as for > knowingly or unknowingly, see that same thread, message #136849 > about how Hermione could have unknowingly passed a bottle of the > twins' love potion disguised as perfume to Ginny, Del`s idea > actually. And then there is the thread, "SHIP: Pirate Ginny" > starting with message #133015, in which I think she is doing it > intentionally. > > > The book doesn't actually say there is such a thing as love potion > perfume. However, Jo showed us in Potions class that love potion > fumes have a subtle, and less obvious effect than from ingesting > it. And Hermione tells us that she read on the back of a bottle in > the twins' shop that their love potions can be owl ordered disguised > as perfume or cough potion. So Ginny could have purchased some > through Verity the clerk, or Ron might have unknowingly given some > to Hermione for Christmas. And she didn't care for it, so could > have passed it to Ginny - maybe when she gave Ginny advice to move > on from Harry. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 16:37:07 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:37:07 -0000 Subject: Ton-Tongue-Toffy (Was: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137053 > Hickengruendler: > > I'm not sure, but I think what was meant was them giving Dudley the > Ton-Tongue-Toffee. Sure, Dudley is rather nasty, but still. I'm torn > about this scene. On the one hand, it was clearly comic relief, > therefore I suppose I just should laugh about it. However, just > imagine what would have happened, if Dudley had eaten the Toffee > after Arthur had left. He probably would be dead by now. Sure, JKR > directed the story a way that nothing serious would happen to Dudley, > but obviously that's not an excuse for Fred and George. They don't > know that they are part of a story, after all. As the twins said, they didn't GIVE Dudley the sweet; he picked it up off the floor and stuck it in his mouth. I'd say that makes it his own fault in part. (He's already, somewhat wisely in fact, terrified of magical people and things and his gluttony overcame him in this case.) And the Ministry would have been by to sort Dudley out pretty soon, anyway (remember Aunt Marge? and other Muggles we've heard of who've been rescued from magicked artifacts and had their memories modified?). It isn't like the twins didn't know their Dad was there to fix things, either. If we credit them with figuring what Dudley would do, then we have to credit them with knowing that Dudley would do what he would do in time for Arthur to fix it.) Sandy aka msbeadsley, less than 600 posts behind now From ryokas at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 16:43:46 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:43:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dysis" wrote: > - but then he fled - without any of his personal belongings! The Pensieve being Snape's has been already debunked, but he should have quite a few other interesting things. At the least someone should be finding out what those things in his jars are, and the Aurors and/or the Order will be sure to go over his possessions with a fine-tooth comb. Taking casualties in the process, if he's ESE. > In Book 5, > before one of the Occlumancy lessons, Snape pulls out three memories > and puts them into his Pensieve. This, however, is a very interesting point. We still don't know what diving into a Pensieve looks like from the outside, and for every other memory we've witnessed one silvery thingy was one memory. Does this mean that the Pensieve contained three distinct memories *when Potter entered it?* Did he only witness one of these, not being able to choose which one - and did or didn't Snape know which one Harry intruded into, as they certainly didn't discuss the matter afterward? Does that say anything about his reaction? - Kizor From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 9 16:53:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:53:13 -0000 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: <003701c59cf6$6abd0eb0$9f21f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137055 > Sherry now: > > If a person had caused my blindness by malicious intent, I would hardly consider joining that person in crimes against society and helping that person evade capture and punishment, especially knowing he would attack other people and cause them to be disabled as well. Pippin: I'm sure you wouldn't, but unfortunately things like that do happen in real life. It's common enough to be given a name -- Stockholm Syndrome. If Jo wants to be honest, she has to represent the full range of human reaction, not just the ones that arouse sympathy. We also have Lupin defending James and Sirius because 'everyone thought they were the height of cool.' Now he's told us that Fenrir is practically a hero to the other werewolves. Looks to me like Jo had a reason for telling us Lupin's failing is that he cuts his friends too much slack. Sherry: I sincerely hope JKR does not end up with ESE Lupin because it would continue the negative stereotypes against werewolves, and by extension, since she says he represents disability, it would continue the negative stereotypes against people with disabilities. Pippin: That's why I think Jo was careful not to say that he represents people with disabilities. He represents the way people *react* to disability. People have treated him as if he were a monster and that does not have a benign effect. It's rare, Dumbledore tells us,for anyone to be as resistant as Harry is, to think only of wanting to defeat evil and never of gaining power for yourself, when you've known little but abuse. But even Harry, whom we're told is pure of heart, has a righteous hatred for those who've abused him. I think the books represent that as a healthier attitude than thinking you have to be so noble as never to feel such things. If Lupin did think that, if he thought that if he were truly human, he would never hate, then what must he think of himself for hating Umbridge, or being bitter about having to spy on his own people? And we now have Bill, who has been bitten and is also horribly disfigured. We can see that his own family are a little worried that it will have some effect on his personality, so I can see him facing the same kind of discrimination that Lupin does, and becoming an alternate target for reader sympathy. Sherry: Besides, i can't bear to think of how Harry would feel if it ended up being true! his father's last remaining friend, a traitor. Pippin: Ah, well, Jo's ruthless. She killed Sirius, she made Peter live twelve years as a rat, James and Lily died knowing they must have been betrayed, why should Lupin fare any better? Pippin From imontero at iname.com Tue Aug 9 16:54:07 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:54:07 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137056 Marcela wrote: Nevertheless, while I said that the scene was a bit too violent for my taste, I can honestly understand her behaviour and I believe I explained that in my previous post. My problem comes with the fact that we're supposed to believe that after this scene and some mending of their friendship, Ron and Hermione can move on to a closer relationship. I still don't understand, and nobody that > answered my post addressed this, how can those two be an equal footing/level in their r'ship after this incident. Is it possible for a couple to have been physical violent/aggressive towards each other, to then cozy up and make up *and not* fall into aggression > again? Luna: Yes, I think a friendship can continue and strengthen even after an incident like this; it all depends on circumstances and follow up. As you said, Hermione wasn't sorry at first, but further behavior shows that she was sorry, especially after Ron was poisoned. We have no reason to believe this behavior will become a pattern. We have never before seen Ron jinxing or physically aggressing Hermione and we have never seen Hermione doing so to him, until the canary scene We see a behavior of someone who must have been regretting doing this and not talking to Ron while he was at the hospital. Later she corrects her behavior by being patient to him (scene where Ron was making snow). So even if we don't see her apologizing to Ron, her behavior (as well as Ron's) shows that she was sorry and that she's taking steps towards a more harmonious relationship with him. Ron and Hermione are equals in the sense that they cannot control each other and the only way out is to be partners, in a way, Ron doesn't take s d from Hermione and Hermione doesn't take s d from Ron; Ron was being outrageously rude to her, and she answered by being equally rude to him. If they want to work their relationship out, they have to work as a team, as equals. This is what they've learn from this experience. Following Jo's books and interviews, she seems to give more value to "equalness" in a relationship. She considers Ron and Hermione, and Ginny and Harry equals in terms of character, personality and relationship dynamics. I agree with her, but I am aware that not everyone sees the same. If you try to find Hermione a match in terms of magic knowledge, well, I think the only match we have left is already dead, killed by Snape. Or maybe Snape himself could be better match, hmmm, can you imagine a fanfiction S/Hr? That should be fun to read :-). Greasy kisses here and there, then jinxes all around, rocky ship! Or maybe DD portrait/Hr. Um, I guess I am getting far away from this post main point OK, going back to the answer you wanted: maybe, correct me if I am wrong, your tolerance for this kind of behavior is very low and this would be reason enough to end a relationship/friendship with someone you deeply care about, even if this person is showing a change of attitude for the better and this particular behavior is not a pattern. Then again, I guess you wouldn't have a R/Hr relationship type anyway Luna. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 9 17:57:51 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:57:51 -0000 Subject: Ton-Tongue-Toffy (Was: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" wrote: > > As the twins said, they didn't GIVE Dudley the sweet; he picked it up > off the floor and stuck it in his mouth. I'd say that makes it his own > fault in part. (He's already, somewhat wisely in fact, terrified of > magical people and things and his gluttony overcame him in this case.) > And the Ministry would have been by to sort Dudley out pretty soon, > anyway (remember Aunt Marge? and other Muggles we've heard of who've > been rescued from magicked artifacts and had their memories > modified?). It isn't like the twins didn't know their Dad was there to > fix things, either. If we credit them with figuring what Dudley would > do, then we have to credit them with knowing that Dudley would do what > he would do in time for Arthur to fix it.) > > Sandy aka msbeadsley, less than 600 posts behind now Hickengruendler: Actually, I think that the twins didn't give the Toffee to Dudley but threw it on the flor makes it worse. First of all, from Harry's stories the twins could be sure that Dudley would pick up the sweet. Sure, it wasn't very intelligent from Dudley, but then, Dudley isn't very intelligent. And he's greedy, therefore it's totally in character for him to pick it up, and the Twins knew this. But if the twins had given Dudley the Toffee, then at least they could have controlled when he would eat it. However, as it was, Dudley could have picked up the Toffee anytime, even when Arthur and the other Weasleys were already gone. That he picked it up at time for Arthur to fix it, was just JKR's good will. However, I don't think the twins meant to cause any harm, or that they really wanted anything serious to happen to Dudley. I just think they are people who do not often consider the possible consequences of their deeds. From ladyljd at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 17:54:07 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:54:07 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137058 Del wrote: > > But DD is the wise mentor of the hero, and usually the mentor is > > right, *especially* when everything seems to point to the fact > > that he is wrong. That's one of the major points of the mentor: > > to teach the hero to look beyond appearances. And Harry so far > > has almost NEVER looked beyond the appearance of Snape. anthyroserain: > To add to what Del is saying: Harry may be the hero and have his > name in the title, but a smart coming-of-age story doesn't suggest > that the hero never learned anything through all the books. > Dumbledore is fallible and sometimes wrong, but this was the > greatest lesson he ever taught, one that Harry would be foolish to > reject, and one I think (or hope) JKR will back up in the end. Sorry I've been so long in responding to this. RL issues have imposed themselves on my HBP speculation time!! Anyway, you know that I certainly agree with your arguments. The fallacy of relying on appearances and prejudices is what I hoped we were seeing develop in the character interpretations of both Lupin and Snape. And perhaps this is so with Lupin but I am ever more convinced of JKR's ill intentions where Snape is concerned. I won't waste your time on all of my theories on what Book 7 will contain. What I will say is that I'm beginning to doubt that Snape will be involved in the redemption JKR is clearly planning for the next installment. We are treated to a rather sympathetic back-story of Tom Riddle in HBP. Could this mean he is capable of some form of redemption? If there is more Snape back-story, you can be certain it will NOT be sympathetic. After all, JKR has said that Snape's knowledge of love makes him EVEN MORE CULPABLE than Riddle. Perhaps this puts Snape in the beyond redemption column for JKR. Further, what if whatever Snape does next is somehow contributory to Riddle's redemption - whether he intends it to be or not. Even if Snape hates Lord Voldemort (regardless of whatever side he's on) he could have reason to feel love or admiration for Tom Riddle. Perhaps the presence of these feelings could be a redemptive factor for Riddle regarding of Snape's actions. If Snape were to betray LV, he would be acting the Judas role in redeeming him. And if he were to die supporting Riddle it would be analogous to Lily's and/or Dumbledore's sacrifices. More and more, I believe JKR sees Snape himself as immaterial to the story. Yes his actions will be a major trigger of the final outcome but his ability to direct or (pun intended)spin this tale have come to an end. If there were a poll on this, I'd vote for him to be dead by or before chapter 13 of book 7. Regardless, I believe JKR will destroy our (mistaken) belief in the depth of the Snape character. Her hero MUST be proven right at all costs. Harry is her hero and he has fixed his opinion of Snape after careful thought - and at a very late stage in this story. He cannot be wrong and remain Our Hero. Therefore, whatever his actions and/or motives, Snape MUST be proven to be evil through and through. All of his actions throughout the series can be taken at face value. There is no more depth to this character. In this case, the only thing left regarding Snape would be to reveal the full extent of his evil machinations over the years. And quite frankly, I don't believe JKR will bother with this. The full extent of ESE!Snape's actions can be left to our collective imaginations. ladyljd From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 18:15:02 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's Horcrux In-Reply-To: <1123558498.1617.45265.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050809181502.58788.qmail@web30011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137059 Rachel wrote: My husband has asked me to ask for your venerable opinions on the matter of DD. He seems to think that Dumbledore created a Horcrux for himself and that he's therefore not really dead, or that he could come back. Now, who has DD killed? Well, it doesn't really say "killed" but it says on the back of his chocolate frog that he "defeated" Grindevald in 1945. It doesn't strike me as very DD-ish to fear death so much to create something that would keep him from really dying. I'm more interested in his connection to phoenixes. Will he arise from the flames? Lynda says: I really don't think that DD would have made a horcrux for himself. He refered to death in SS/PS as a great adventure and I also think that horcrux making is a working of very dark magic, which DD although he was definately talented enough to achieve, was not inclined to perform. It seems to me that much of the reason Tom Riddle turned to the dark arts was out of a fear of his own mortality and that DD has indicated throughout the books that death is not to be feared. As for the phoenix connection, it is interesting isn't it, what happened at his funeral. I just started rereading two days ago myself and haven't gotten very far into the book yet. RL keeps intruding. Lynda From Nanagose at aol.com Tue Aug 9 18:36:11 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:36:11 -0000 Subject: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137060 > Alla: > Oh, but Potioncat, don't you remember that person can modify his > own memory before putting it in the pensieve? :-) Christina: It's easy to tell when Slughorn's memory was modified because Harry is surrounded by a "dense fog" and the scenes fades away, only to come back again. None of this happens when Harry is in Snape's memory. Also, I find it difficult to believe that Snape's pensieve memory is incorrect just because of Lupin and Sirius's reactions to Harry telling them about it. (OotP, US, page 670) "Yeah," said Harry, "but he just attacked Snape **for no good reason**, just because - well, just because you said you were bored," he finished with a slightly apologetic note in his voice. "I'm not proud of it," said Sirius quickly. [...and a little later...] "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?" "Yeah, well," said Sirius, "you made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes...That was something..." [...down some more...] "She started going out with him in seventh year," said Lupin. "Once James had deflated his head a bit," said Sirius. "And stopped hexing people **just for the fun of it**," said Lupin. (end quote- all emphasis mine) If the Sirius and James felt "ashamed of ourselves" for their actions, they knew they were in the wrong. You don't feel shame for actions that have ample justification. Note that Harry specifically mentions that James and Sirius started the OWL incident without provocation from Snape, and not only do Lupin and Sirius refrain from making any sort of correction, Sirius even says that he's not proud of what he did. When talking about the prank in PoA (which IMO is a much more dangerous incident), Sirius says, "it served him right," but for this, Sirius just tries to explain why James and Snape disliked each other in the first place (putting the blame on both sides). If James was more injured that the pensieve memory showed, why didn't Sirius or Lupin make some kind of comment like, "Yeah, we hung him in the air, but you should have seen Snape attack James- he was gushing blood everywhere! So whatever we did to him was just." I have no doubt that Snape got his jabs in where he could and was probably pretty vicious, but I also see no reason to believe that his pensieve memory is wrong. > Alla: > Besides, Dumbledore stresses that Slugghorn did a poor job out of > modifying his memory. It suggest to me that people could do a > better job out of it. > > And we all know that Snape is a powerful wizard. :-) Christina: Yes, Dumbledore does say that Slughorn's tampering was "very crudely done," *but* he says on the very next page that "Professor Slughorn is an extremely able wizard..." So either Slughorn very hurredly tampered with the memory, or there isn't a way to tamper with a memory completely undetected (some traces of the tampering remain). > Alla: > Oh, did I tell you that now I am almost convinced that Snape > indeed left Pensieve on the table for Harry to see? > > Potioncat: > But to what point? And how was he to know they would be interrupted? > > Alla: > I am sorry, could you clarify? What do you mean " to what point"? To > what point in the memory Snape wanted Harry to be a witness to? Christina: I could be wrong here, but I think Potioncat is trying to say, why would Snape want Harry to see that particular memory? What would be the point of showing him? Harry already hates Snape- showing him what could be viewed as a sympathetic memory is *not* going to change Harry's mind about Snape. Why would Snape was to change Harry's perceptions of him anyway? You could say that Snape just wants Harry to realize what a prat his dad was, but I find it really OOC for Snape to use a completely humiliating memory to prove that point. Snape pulls Harry out of the memory just as things start to get *really* humiliating. There's no way he could have planned his exit and re-entrance of the room in order to ensure that Harry would be interrupted right at the worst part. Also, I would think that if Snape just wanted to say "I told you so" to Harry (concerning James), he would have continued giving Harry Occlumency lessions just to gloat at him. If Snape really planted the memory for Harry to see, he would have followed it up with endless jabs- "See Potter, what do you think of old Dad now? *smirk* *sneer* *gloat*" We don't see any of this. In fact, we see the opposite. Snape throws Harry (*literally*) out of his office and refuses to give him additional lessons. He goes against Dumbledore's specific orders to teach Harry, and he *never* brings up the pensieve memory again. Snape is so angry that one of his jars explodes. Compare this to Harry's detention in HBP, where Snape purposefully tries to get Harry to see how bad James was. The files have nothing to do with Snape (or anything that could embarrass him), and Snape gloats at Harry: (HBP, US, page 532) "I thought you could start," said Snape, **a malicious smile on his lips**, "with boxes one thousand and twelve to one thousand and fifty-six. You will find some familiar names in there, which should add interest to the task..." [...Snape reads a sample card...] Snape **sneered**. "It must be such a comfort to think that, though they are gone, a record of their great achievements remains." (end quote; again, all emphasis mine) This is Snape doing things with purpose. This is Snape in his element. Snape exploding jars and physically abusing Harry is not. Christina From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 9 18:36:16 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:36:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137061 Kizor: > and did or didn't Snape know which one Harry > intruded into, as they certainly didn't discuss the matter afterward? > Does that say anything about his reaction? houyhnhnm: **** But whether James really did take off Snape's pants, Harry never found out. A hand had closed tightly over his upper arm, closed with a pincer-like grip. [...] "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" (OotP, AE, p. 649) ***** Clearly, Snape knew which memory, he was in the pensieve with Harry. I have had some questions about Snape's use of the pensieve and the other two memories, though. When someone withdraws a memory and places it in the pensieve, does the person lose the knowledge that the memory contained? If so, perhaps Dumbledore has loaned Snape the pensieve, not so Harry won't see Snape's memories, but so Snape will not be influenced by them. If so, it doesn't work. (Hence Dumbledore's comment to Harry at the end about an old man's mistake.) Perhaps neither Snape nor Dumbledore anticipates Harry's being able to break into Snape's mind. Because, it seems to me, the memories Snape would be most concerned about hiding from Harry would not be childhood/teenage humiliations, but his meetings with Voldemort. (which we didn't know were taking place when OotP came out, but we know now.) From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 19:08:34 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:08:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Pensieve (was Re: Snape's pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137062 Dysis and Carodave wrote: Carodave: > However, the DD's pensieve is still at Hogwarts...presumably filled > with DD's memories...interesting. I quite agree. ^_^ Dysis Marianne S: I think the pensieve could be quite helpful! There are four major things I would love for it to show. 1) The conversation between Dumbledore and Snape that shows exactly why the headmaster trusted Snape. 2) What agreement (if any) was made between Dumbledore and Snape about killing Dumbledore, protecting Draco, etc. 3) If Snape, the one whose quick action saved Dumbledore over the summer from the effects of the ring, knows about the search for the horcruxes, and 4) What EXACTLY happened at Godric's Hollow on that fatefull day... from Snape's perspective if he was present. Marianne S From carodave92 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 18:13:45 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:13:45 -0000 Subject: Ton-Tongue-Toffy (Was: Fred and George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137063 msbeadsley wrote: > > As the twins said, they didn't GIVE Dudley the sweet; he picked > > it up off the floor and stuck it in his mouth. > > And the Ministry would have been by to sort Dudley out pretty > > soon, anyway (remember Aunt Marge? Hickengruendler replied: > Actually, I think that the twins didn't give the Toffee to Dudley > but threw it on the flor makes it worse. ...as it was, > Dudley could have picked up the Toffee anytime, even when Arthur > and the other Weasleys were already gone. That he picked it up at > time for Arthur to fix it, was just JKR's good will. Carodave adds: Many of the twins' products have a fairly short life-span (ex.1, eat a Canary Cream and molt within moments; and, ex.2, according to Hermione, the charm on Headless Hats doesn't last long). Most probably the Ton Tongue Toffee is no different and Dudley's tongue would have returned to normal size in a short time, even without Arthur's assistance. IMHO it was a prank meant to scare a bully and in the end no real harm would be done. Carodave, who believes that the Twins are nice boys! From devin.smither at yale.edu Tue Aug 9 19:19:53 2005 From: devin.smither at yale.edu (uilnslcoap) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:19:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137064 Oh, and two more things. 1) Why did Harry break up with Ginny if this insidious "love potion perfume" is in effect? Did she run out the day of Dubmledore's funeral? 2) Says the goddess: "...because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman." Or are we going to pretend that interviews don't mean anything...again? > I haven't posted her in years, but I can't stand for this. > > Utterly preposterous. This theory has no merit whatever. Why wasn't > Harry going nuts for Ginny the way Ron was for Romilda? If it were > love potion that caused his attraction, he'd give no consideration to > the idea that Ginny is Ron's sister and therefore out of bounds; he'd > just go for her. Why does Ginny stay with Dean all that time if > she's using uncanonical "love potion perfume" on Harry? It's clear > that love potions smack of scents that one (consciously or > subconsciously) associates with romance. Harry didn't smell the love > potion Ginny was wearing in Potions; Harry smelled Ginny. There's no > room for assuming there can be a love potion perfume when there's no > evidence for it AT ALL in canon. Harry likes Ginny. Both Ron and > Hermione like that Harry likes Ginny. Big frickin' deal. From iam.kemper at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 19:19:24 2005 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:19:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <700201d4050809121936fc6f1b@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137065 Del wrote: > > > That's one of the major points of the mentor: to teach the > > > hero to look beyond appearances. And Harry so far has almost > > > NEVER looked beyond the appearance of Snape. anthyroserain added: > > Harry may be the hero and have his name in the title, but a > > smart coming-of-age story doesn't suggest that the hero never > > learned anything through all the books. Dumbledore is fallible > > and sometimes wrong, but this was the greatest lesson he ever > > taught, one that Harry would be foolish to reject ladyljd wrote: > The fallacy of relying on appearances and prejudices is what I > hoped we were seeing develop in the character interpretations of > both Lupin and Snape. ... but I am ever more convinced of JKR's > ill intentions where Snape is concerned. ...I'm beginning to > doubt that Snape will be involved in the redemption JKR is clearly > planning for the next installment. Kemper now: But Harry has always been duped by the appearances of or experiences with others, and reading through his interpretations, many of us are as well. Petunia Mrs. Figg Scabbers Quirrell Sirius Black Lupin Moody!CrouchJr Just to name the obvious. When has Harry been right? This final time with the Half Blood Prince? I don't think so. Because without Snape being on the side of Good, then JKR doesn't have a story with Redemption. Who else is there to be redeemed? Any of the Malfoys?! If so, then it will be 'redemption' with a lower case 'R', and the impact of any of their 'redemptions' will be soft and without much substance or meaning. If there is to be Redemption in the story, it needs to be Snape because it was Snape that, seemingly, with him overhearing some of the prophecy and blabbing to Voldemort, so effected Harry's orphaned life. But what about Voldemort? What we see through the pensieve is a boy who has always been evil. There was not a hopeful flicker of a good kid anywhere. If he is to be the Redeemed one, then I will roast a marshmallow over my burning HP books and have myself a s'more. Yummy. Now if JKR isn't writing with the theme of Redemption in mind, then sure Snape is Ever So Evil, but if that's the case then the story will not be as amazing and emotional as it can be. kemper From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 19:43:26 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:43:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137066 uilnslcoap: Utterly preposterous. This theory has no merit whatever. Why wasn't Harry going nuts for Ginny the way Ron was for Romilda? If it were love potion that caused his attraction, he'd give no consideration to the idea that Ginny is Ron's sister and therefore out of bounds; he'd just go for her. Why does Ginny stay with Dean all that time if she's using uncanonical "love potion perfume" on Harry? It's clear that love potions smack of scents that one (consciously or subconsciously) associates with romance. Harry didn't smell the love potion Ginny was wearing in Potions; Harry smelled Ginny. There's no room for assuming there can be a love potion perfume when there's no evidence for it AT ALL in canon. Harry likes Ginny. Both Ron and Hermione like that Harry likes Ginny. Big frickin' deal. Marianne S: To further these points made by uilnslcoap, think about this. Even if Ginny was unknowingly wearing love potion, Harry wouldn't care about Ron's reaction or even the fact that Ginny was going out with Dean. Plus... Ginny goes out with a total of TWO guys before Harry. Let's say she didn't start wearing the love potion perfume until her fourth year... wouldn't ALL the guys (Except Ron) want her, not just Harry? Amortentia smells like what is most desireable to each person, so all the guys would be smelling what they desired on Ginny. If it were a less potent love potion, such as the one Romilda used, See, I think the person that a girl wants to want her (or a boy wants to want him) has to actually INGEST the love potion, which is why Romilda offeredHarry Gilly Water and Cauldron Cakes. Fred and George were selling love potion disguised at cough potions and perfume, but nowhere does it say that the potion was to be used as such. So, since ALL the guys aren't all over Ginny, and since Harry DOES let the fact that she's dating Dean and the fact that she's his best mate's sister stand in the way of him asking her out sooner, I think we can disprove any theory that Ginny is wearing a love potion. Another thing that should disprove the whole Ginny Wearing Love Potion theory is the point of view of the author herself. Yes, I know several people believe she did a poor job convincing them of the relationship or that Ginny is right for Harry. However, one cannot dispute the fact that Rowling planned for them together, wanted them to be together, and feels that Ginny is THE girl for Harry. JKR herself said in that often quoted leaky cauldren/mugglenet interview, "...because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry.... And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character." Rowling would not have said this if she had, to Ginny's knowledge or not, made it all happen because of a love potion. This would not have made them worthy of each other. Boy am I glad that I do agree with JKR about this "ship". Nevertheless, a reader certainly doesn't have to like Ginny or any of the characters for that matter. A reader can ship for whomever they want. Nevertheless, that doesn't change what happened and what JKR intended, and neither does excusing it away by planting a love potion. Marianne S. From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Aug 9 19:56:09 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:56:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: <700201d4050809121936fc6f1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007901c59d1c$64a24b50$9f21f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137067 Kemper now: But Harry has always been duped by the appearances of or experiences with others, and reading through his interpretations, many of us are as well. Petunia Mrs. Figg Scabbers Quirrell Sirius Black Lupin Moody!CrouchJr Just to name the obvious. When has Harry been right? This final time with the Half Blood Prince? I don't think so. Because without Snape being on the side of Good, then JKR doesn't have a story with Redemption. Who else is there to be redeemed? Any of the Malfoys?! If so, then it will be 'redemption' with a lower case 'R', and the impact of any of their 'redemptions' will be soft and without much substance or meaning. If there is to be Redemption in the story, it needs to be Snape because it was Snape that, seemingly, with him overhearing some of the prophecy and blabbing to Voldemort, so effected Harry's orphaned life. But what about Voldemort? What we see through the pensieve is a boy who has always been evil. There was not a hopeful flicker of a good kid anywhere. If he is to be the Redeemed one, then I will roast a marshmallow over my burning HP books and have myself a s'more. Yummy. Now if JKR isn't writing with the theme of Redemption in mind, then sure Snape is Ever So Evil, but if that's the case then the story will not be as amazing and emotional as it can be. kemper Sherry now: In HBP, Harry was right about Draco. I think we are seeing the story switch to Harry maturing and being right, and nobody will believe him, because he's been wrong so often. And yet, has he? He believed what he was told about Sirius, until he met Sirius. He had enough doubt to listen and believed Sirius. For me, and this is of course only my opinion, Snape's redemption would be horribly disappointing and anti climactic. It would even over shadow Harry, and that would be even worse. It's Harry I care about and have cared about since I met him as a baby in the arms of Hagrid in the first chapter of the first book. There have been others I care about in the series, Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, the Weasleys, Hermione ... but Snape as an abuser and murderer doesn't get my vote for hero or one who should be redeemed. He should have to pay for what he's done and pay dearly. He shouldn't be able to do some noble act of redemption and be the shining hero in the last book. If the series is about redemption, then I don't know who else it could be, but I'd even take Voldemort's redemption over Snape's. ok, I just really dislike and distrust that man, and HBP gave me the ability to do it freely without trying to figure out why Dumbledore trusts him and why I should think he's good in spite of his nasty abusive nature. Now I can just hate his guts and be happy! LOL. Sherry From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 20:18:33 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:18:33 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137068 > Ginger: > Just a bit of a quibble and a point that I don't think has been made: > > Hermione did attack Ron with conjured constructs, but they were part > of the Transfiguration assignment. So, since they were 6th years, it > was, indeed, upper level, but not beyond her year (see ch. 14, US p. > 284 for details). True. I had forgotten about that part. However, they had just started learning that magic and Hermione was the first one to do it successfuly. I was merely pointing out that just because Ron isn't quite the magical prodigy Hermione is doesn't mean he is some dumb failure of a wizard who needs Hermione to wave her wand for him at all times which is what the post I was replying to basically said. > Harry knows what Ron is mad about. He has just realized that > Hermione probably kissed Viktor in GoF. He's jealous and has been > taking it out on her for several days. > > That much is canon. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that > Hermione and Ginny had a chat and that Hermione knows that Ron is > jealous because she snogged Viktor. But then he goes and snogs > Lavender in front of the whole room. I'm not sure that Hermione knows why Ron is throwing his fit. In her own way Hermione is just as clueless as Ron. and Ginny is just the kind of person who would see the whole debacle as being too funny to interrupt. > Before I go on sounding like I'm against Ron here, I must confess > that I was one of those annoying homely girls who tut-tutted when the > other girls were doing tonsil exams with their boyfriends, only to be > just as showy as they when I did have a boyfriend. Ron's behaviour > was, as Ginny said, hypocritical, but I do feel sympathy for > Ron "sweet 16 and never been kissed" Weasley. I think Ginny was way out of line when she humiliated Ron in public like that. Just one of many reasons why I don't like the character. > I don't blame him for wanting to show off Lavender's attraction to > him, but I do blame him for being so mean to Hermione when she hadn't > done anything to deserve it. True, but being insensitive doesn't give anyone the right to smack you around (or the magical equivenent of attack canaries). Dating McLaggen was both on the same maturity level as Ron's snub and an appropriate get back in the mind of a teenage girl. Birds which were going for his face were not in my view. It was a violent escalaction of an otherwise typical teenage love spat. > Nor do I think it was right of Hermione to attack him with birds. My problem wasn't the attack. My problem was the lack of consequences for it. I think that shows the authors implicit approval of the action, which is a bad message to send. apparently she thinks its okay to lose your temper and lash out at others when you're really stressed. compare that to the sheer number of times Harry has been punished for dueling/attacking/drawing his wand against someone else-- ususally for a better reason than Hermione had. > So, yeah, she was hurt. I'd say she had a right to be. Why? Had they made any promises to each other that Ron broke? Was Ron also dating Hermione when he decided to snog Lavender? Did he need her permission? He hurt her feelings true, but she had also hurt his many other times and it was finally his time. Not the most mature thing to do but understandable. I'm glad Ron finally put himself out there. I respect that he didn't sit around pining away for the girl he likes. Hermione didn't wait for him. She dated other guys, why shouldn't he do the same? Better than Harry, who just sat around waiting for Ginny for two thirds of the book. Now that was truly pathetic. Even if Ginny was the girl he really liked, there had to be other ones, he's sixteen for godsake. Harry was just a giant weeny when it came to the love subplot in my view. phoenixgod2000, who is glad that HBP finally settle the eternal question of whether or not Hermione was too mature for Ron. the answer is of course NO! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 20:22:52 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:22:52 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: <007901c59d1c$64a24b50$9f21f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137069 > Kemper now: > But Harry has always been duped by the appearances of or experiences > with others, and reading through his interpretations, many of us are > as well. > Just to name the obvious. When has Harry been right? This final time with > the Half Blood Prince? I don't think so. Because without Snape being on > the side of Good, then JKR doesn't have a story with > Redemption. Who else is there to be redeemed? Alla: Well, I think it would make total sense if Harry FINALLY would have been proven right. He is almost at the final stage of his quest, I'd say it is about time. :-) As to redemption, well, yes, the only thing which stopped me from totally hating Snape ( NOT the character as JKR's creation, the man behind the character within the story. Sigh.... I can never put this distinction on paper nicely)during the previous books was hope that he would be redeeemed. I think the story could be just as interesting and emotional if Snape's story would have been about a man who blown his chance at redemption. Who instead of following the path Dumbledore shown to him, followed the path of self presevation and cowardice . I think it is interesting. As to who else could be redeemed, well, Peter seems like an obvious candidate to me. Believe me, I would much prefer to see Snape redeemed before HBP and could not imagine plausible redemption for Peter. > Sherry now: but Snape as > an abuser and murderer doesn't get my vote for hero or one who should be > redeemed. He should have to pay for what he's done and pay dearly. He > shouldn't be able to do some noble act of redemption and be the shining hero > in the last book. Alla: Hmmm. It is not that Snape's redemotion would be anticlimatic for me. I am sure JKR could pull it off micely, but you said it perfectly " he should pay for what he is done" Phoenixgod said it earlier that he won't get full satisfaction unless Snape is dead regardless of the reasons he killed Dumbledore and I agree ( well, I mainly agree because I don't believe in Puppetmaster! Dumbledore) For this reader to be happy at the end of the books, Snape should be dead. I have to say though, Sherry. I do see Snape dying for Harry at the end. JMO Alla. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 9 20:21:59 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:21:59 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyljd" wrote: > Regardless, I believe JKR will destroy our (mistaken) belief in the > depth of the Snape character. Her hero MUST be proven right at all > costs. Harry is her hero and he has fixed his opinion of Snape > after careful thought - and at a very late stage in this story. He > cannot be wrong and remain Our Hero. Therefore, whatever his > actions and/or motives, Snape MUST be proven to be evil through and > through. All of his actions throughout the series can be taken at > face value. There is no more depth to this character. Pippin: But Harry's *never* thought carefully about Snape, or Lupin, about what *really* happened the night of the Shrieking Shack or the night of the tower, or he'd have as many questions as we do! He hasn't, as Dumbledore put it, exercised all of his considerable ingenuity or the depth of his cunning. He's judged, as he did from the first, by appearances, and by feelings. He likes Lupin so Lupin must be okay; he hates Snape so Snape must be capable of anything. Well, Harry didn't need seven years of schooling to learn that -- in fact his opinion of Snape hasn't changed much since his first day of school. What's the point of it all, if Harry hasn't learned to *think*? We learned in PoA that eyewitnesses to murder can get it all wrong. If Jo wants to have it that Snape is no more guilty of killing Dumbledore than Harry is, she's left herself plenty of room. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 9 20:45:52 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:45:52 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" > wrote: > > > Betsy Hp: > > Did Draco freely choose to become Voldemort's assassin? This is > > important because by the morality of the books Draco's choice tells > > us a great deal about the make-up of his character and the direction > > he'll most likely be taking in book 7. Salit: > When we first see Draco on the train he shows great pride in his task. > While some of it may be bravado and show off and mostly immaturity, I > think he felt very honored by his choice. This fits well with > Voldemort's ability to make his DE's feel very grateful and honored > when given the most horrible and demeaning tasks... Geoff: I think a lot of this is keeping up appearances with his peers as being someone in touch with important people. Have you never name-dropped to help your street cred? Salit: > Malfoy later finds out that what seemed easy is not so at all. But his > last action was a choice - run away with the DE's. He may not like his > choice and likely will die for it either at the hand of the good side > or at the hand of Voldemort (or his DE's), but he did stick with the > DE's in the end. Geoff: I think canon might disagree with you there.... 'Harry felt as though he, too, were hurtling through space; it could not have happened... it could not have happened... "Out of here, quickly," said Snape. He seized Malfoy by the scruff of the neck and forced him through the door ahead of the rest;' (HBP "Flight of the Prince" p.557 UK edition) It seems that Draco is being dragged along here whether he wants to be or not. Yes, I know that he is running on his own later, but this may be through being caught up in the train of events and, having been dragged out, deciding that he ought to make himself scarce. Salit: > > Draco, himself, doesn't act like he's got a choice in the matter. > > > > "No one can help me," [...] "...and unless I do it soon...he say's > > he'll kill me..." (522) > > But nowhere does Draco say "It's the wrong thing to do". He is scared > and ashamed but equally ashamed of not measuring up to the Voldemort's > standards as he is of not measuring up to Dumbledore's. Geoff: No. But haven't you ever got yourself into a jam over something and you spend your time trying to justify yourself rather than apologise or admit that you made a mistake or it was the wrong thing to do? I have and I can recall wriggling to try to get myself out of the situation without losing too much face... Draco is metaphorically in deep water and he isn't a very good swimmer. Salit: > > And Draco, with the freedom to choose finally returned to him, > > lowers his wand. > > Lowers slightly, not all the way. This shows he is torn and hasn't > made a choice. Geoff: No, but if the freedom of choice is returned to you, you want time to reflect on what is the best thing to do and not jumping in with both feet and making the wrong choice. Being torn is better than considering that you know every answer. And look at Harry; he is a past master at the art of thinking on his feet some of his choices have gone horrendously wrong. I have argued for some time that no one is irredeemable and I have hope that something of Draco's (well hidden) good side may be salvaged. A few weeks ago, I referred to a Biblical example in the case of St.Paul, who as Saul of Tarsus, set out to crush the early church and was not too fussy about the methods he used such as imprisonment and killing. He was at the stoning of Stephen, not as one of the perpetrators but egging them on from the side. Then the Bible narrative records that he met the risen Christ and, realising the mistakes he had made, became a totally different man who went on to be possibly the finest worker for Christ of his generation. And there are modern day parallels within the church. But, it is JKR's story and Draco's fate lies within her gift. However, she has pointed up something many of us have said time and time again that both Harry and Draco have grey areas within their lives which make them flawed and make them both comparable with people we know and, if we are honest, ourselves. And, strangely perhaps, it is those flaws in both of them which make them real enough for me to see myself in them, particularly Harry, as a teenager. From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Aug 9 20:49:11 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:49:11 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137072 Pippin_999 wrote: > > Well, Harry didn't need seven years of schooling to learn that -- > in fact his opinion of Snape hasn't changed much since his first > day of school. What's the point of it all, if Harry hasn't learned > to *think*? > Perhaps that wisdom is different than intelligence? That in the end we have to make up our own minds, and not let others tell us how to think and whom to trust -- even if the person telling us is as kind as Lupin or as intelligent as Dumbledore? That in the end we only have our own experiences and judgment upon which to fall back, when all else fails us? Very valuable lessons all, and if Harry has learned them they will serve him extremely well. Actually, I don't know if Snape will turn out evil or not. Nothing would particularly surprise me at this point. However, I think a valuable point has been raised by several people. This is *Harry's* story - not Snape's or Lupin's or anyone else's. JKR has said that several times, and she has said also that, to her, that means Harry has to face his destiny by himself, without help from adults. That means without Sirius or Dumbledore, one assumes without Lupin, and it strongly implies without the help of a spy who has been cleverly planted in Voldemort's entourage by some plot of Dumbledore's and who is just waiting to strike at the crucial moment to save Harry's bacon. Snape definitely has a part to play. But a plot that features him as "super spy" threatens to steal Harry's glory, and I don't see JKR doing that. It in effect says that Harry wasn't ever *really* on his own after all, and if she's going to pull something like THAT I'd really have been much more impressed if she had kept Sirius and Dumbledore alive. That would have at least gone boldly against standard formulas. A super spy plot smells of comic books and soap operas and, despite resorting to "the Quest for the Six Horcruxes" I hope JKR has something more interesting than that up her sleeve. As I've said before (and will probably say again) I think in the end a lot of HP fans are going to be very disappointed because I think the story is going to turn out NOT to hinge on characters in which they have a great deal invested. We've already seen evidence that neither Neville nor Luna is going to be as important as many believed, and I doubt Tonks will be, either. Remus still has possibilities, and I think Ginny will not be the "sit on the sidelines" type either. And of course the resolution of the Snape arc will be important. Nevertheless, in the end it will very much come down to Harry, and to a lesser extent Ron and Hermione. I don't see Snape materializing out of the shadows at the deciding instant to save Harry or trip up Voldemort, or for Peter or Draco to do that, either. When all is said and done, it will be "Harry Potter and ?" NOT "Severus Snape and the Triumph of the Super Spy" or "Draco Malfoy and the Coming of Redemption" or "Peter Pettigrew and the Rat's Revenge." Lupinlore From clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 19:53:56 2005 From: clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com (Ehren) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:53:56 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137073 Hi everyone, I have been trying to keep up with 100's of daily posts but since I am juggling my other responsibilities...its just not possible so I apologize if this has been covered. Neville mentioned in the HBP that he was on of the last people to purchase a wand from Ollivander before. "Cherry and Unicorn hair," he said proudly. "We think it was one of the last Ollivander ever sold, he vanished the next day.." pg137 US Paperback. I have a theory that could either work one of two ways: The first way it could go is that Ollivander was under the imperious curse by DE (Bellatrix) and somehow jinxed Nevilles wand in a way that it is intended to hurt Harry or cause mass chaos in general. The second is that Ollivander new that the DE's were coming after him and did something special to that last few wands he sold to ensure their owner's protection. Are their any other theories on this? It could be nothing, but we have yet to see Neville's bigger part to play and this seems like one of JKR's insignificant details that comes up in a later book. (Just like I forgotten completly about the Hand of Glory and what it did in CoS and was suprised by its reapearance in HBP). Ideas anyone? Ehren From prep0strus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 20:52:23 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:52:23 -0000 Subject: Inferi Shminferi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137074 Was anyone else rather unimpressed with the Inferi? I mean, aside from the extreme echhh/jibblies factor, they didn't pose much of a challenge. I wouldn't expect the production of fire to be beyond the capabilities of an average adult wizard. Sure, being frightened, creeped out, shocked, horrified etc (especially if you knew one of the inferi when they were alive) would affect your reaction, but I don't recall anything that would make me think a ring of fire would be hard for a trained wizard to produce. Dumbledore is very powerful, but was also very weakened, and managed to do it. If citizens took some preparation classes, and had 'inferi drills', so that rings of fire was a well rehearsed spell.... I figure, I must be forgetting something that would make them a real threat. Help, anybody? Thanks, ~Prep0sterous From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 20:55:01 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:55:01 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137075 > >>Betsy Hp: > >Did Draco freely choose to become Voldemort's assassin? > > > >>Salit: > When we first see Draco on the train he shows great pride in his > task. While some of it may be bravado and show off and mostly > immaturity, I think he felt very honored by his choice. Betsy Hp: Draco feels honored in being *chosen*. Draco did not make a choice here, Voldemort did. And what's interesting is that Narcissa, in her exchange with Bellatrix, brings up the point that Draco is underage and therefore, according to the custom of the WW, unable to make an informed decision. "And I will say this for Draco: He isn't shrinking away from his duty, he seems glad of a chance to prove himself, excited at the prospect --" [...] "That's because he is sixteen and has no idea what lies in store!" (HBP scholastic p.33) > >>Salit: > This fits well with Voldemort's ability to make his DE's feel very > grateful and honored when given the most horrible and demeaning > tasks... Betsy Hp: Exactly! Voldemort (with Bellatrix's help I'm sure) convince Draco that he's been given an honorable task. That Draco seems to buy the party line at first I agree with. But that doesn't change the fact that Draco was *given* this task. Draco did not choose it. By Christmas time Draco seems to be having second thoughts. He looks ill enough for Harry to notice and comment on it. And it's after Christmas that Draco starts going to Moaning Mrytle. By this point, IMO, Draco realizes that his choice in the matter has been taken from him. I think he probably realizes that he'd never had a choice in the first place. > >>Salit: > > But his last action was a choice - run away with the DE's. > Betsy Hp: Draco didn't have a choice here at all. JKR makes that very clear, IMO. "[Snape] seized Malfoy by the scruff of the neck and forced him through the door ahead of the rest;" (ibid p.597) Again, the language used ("seized" "forced") precludes choice. And I would argue that Draco may well be choosing the side of right before Snape arrives. First, he lowers his wand (enough that Harry, who's always ready to believe the worst of Draco, recognizes that he does so). Second, he disobeys the urging of the four Death Eaters surrounding him to kill Dumbledore (the easier or certainly more cowardly option, IMO). Third, he makes sure that Dumbledore realizes that he *did not* invite Fenrir to the school (which implies to me that Draco, for the first time in his life quite possibly, is looking for Dumbledore's approval). > >>Salit: > But nowhere does Draco say "It's the wrong thing to do". He is > scared and ashamed but equally ashamed of not measuring up to the > Voldemort's standards as he is of not measuring up to Dumbledore's. Betsy Hp: As I said up-thread, the fact that Draco brings up what he did to Katie and Ron suggests remorse to me. Dumbledore tells him he's not a killer and Draco says that he must be because look what he's already done. Draco is scared of becoming a killer and he's ashamed of what he's already done. I see no evidence that he's ashamed of not "measuring up" to Voldemort. That he is scared of Voldemort is hardly a strike against him in my opinion. Draco *should* be scared of Voldemort. > >>Betsy Hp: > >Even with the temptation of the four Death Eaters, who five times > >by my count try to turn Draco into a killer, Draco shows us (and > >Harry) who he truly is: he is not a killer; he is an innocent. > >>Salit: > No, he is incapable of making a decision. Yet. There is no evidence > one way or another which way he'd have gone if given full time to > consider. Betsy Hp: Ooh, I strongly disagree here. There is powerful imagery invoked in the three times Dumbledore gives Draco the time to act and then tells him he is not a killer. I'm not sure if JKR had this particular idea in mind while she was writing, but once I noticed the pattern of three I immediately thought of Peter who three times denies Christ before the Crucifixion and then, after the Resurrection, is able to redeem himself when Christ asks Peter three times if he loves him. (I believe this takes place in the book of John in the Bible.) But even if she didn't, there's a certain power within the number three. Draco's act of confession, Dumbledore's benediction, the repetitive nature of their exchange... I think Draco leaves this encounter effectively blessed by Dumbledore. Proven, I think, by Draco not giving into the demands of the Death Eaters. (I don't want to take this imagery too far. I think it implies a certain symbolism, but I don't think it's supposed to be taken literally.) > >>Betsy Hp: > >[Draco] is not a killer; he is an innocent. > >>Phoenixgod: > You almost had me Betsy, until this line. > > But Draco, whatever he might be and however might he end up is not > an innocent. > Betsy Hp: Ahh, but it's not my line. *Dumbledore* is the one who tells Draco that he's not a killer and calls him an innocent. "I don't think you will kill me, Draco. Killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe..." (586) Honestly, I wouldn't have called Draco an innocent, myself, for the very reasons you brought up. Stomping a helpless Harry, nearly killing Katie and Ron, his use of Unforgivables don't call up images of fluffy bunny innocence to me, either. But Dumbledore said it, and if you think about how Draco parallels Harry, it starts to make sense. Because Harry has stomped a helpless Draco, and Harry very nearly killed Draco with the Sectumsempra curse, and Harry has thrown an Unforgivable or two. Yet, Dumbledore describes Harry as "pure of heart" (511). Harry, despite his warts and foibles, is an innocent. So yes, Draco did some bad things. But, since he has not killed, since there is no blood on his hands, he is, by Potterverse standards, an innocent. Because, IMO, JKR isn't talking about fluffy bunny innocence, she's talking about something more gritty and practical. It's been brought up on this list, many times, that Harry doesn't seem to have an unusual capacity to love. And yet, it's his ability to love that enables him to challange an evil wizard of great power who had already killed by age eleven. [As a total aside, it's interesting to me the role Snape has played in keeping both boys innocent. Snape stabilizes Katie; it's his advice Harry follows to save Ron; and he heals Draco. Without Snape, both boys could well have become murderers.] > >>Betsy Hp: > >And in a round about sort of way, keeping his friends out of his > >tangles with Voldemort showed a form of compassion too. > >>Salit: > Did he? He used Crabbe and Goyle as lookouts (and they did not > seem to like it). > Betsy Hp: Well, I did say it was round about . However, I get the impression that Crabbe and Goyle don't know what Draco is up to. "Look, it's none of your business what I'm doing, Crabbe, you and Goyle just do as you're told and keep a lookout!" (383) Even when he's breaking under the pressure, Draco keeps his friends out of it. They don't know what he's up to, so if Draco fails, or he gets caught, or both, neither of his friends will be accomplices. (Though I do recognize that that's putting the best possible spin on it.) > >>Phoenixgod: > I think Draco is going to survive, but Draco is never going to turn > out well. Betsy Hp: Me, I think Draco is going to turn out well. But I'm not so sure he's going to survive. :( Betsy Hp From btb900 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 21:00:53 2005 From: btb900 at yahoo.com (brandon) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:00:53 -0000 Subject: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137076 J.K. Rowling's sixth Harry Potter book, Harry Potter and the Half- Blood Prince, is a book filled with mystery and many possibilities. Locked away in mystery, under a veil of smoke, J.K. Rowling has left many questions in her new book, such as who is R.A.B? Why did Professor Snape kill Dumbledore? And who will find the other Horcruxes first, R.A.B, Harry Potter, or does the Dark Lord have them are ready with him? These are some of the questions that might have been running through Harry's mind, as he "Pulled out the fragment of parchment, opened it, and read by the light of many wands that had now been lit behind him" these words, "to the Dark Lord I know I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death on the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more", signed R.A.B (609pg). As one can clearly see, the possibilities are endless; however, based a pun my reading of the 6 Harry Potter books, I feel that Dumbledore is still alive and he will find the other Horcruxes. Some, who may oppose my claim, might argue that since Professor Snape used the Avada Kedavra, the killing spell, on Dumbledore that Dumbledore must be dead. Also, some might say that because Dumbledore's body was found, he is surely dead. Still others may argue that if Dumbledore was not dead, then Professor Snape would have die, because of the unbreakable vow, Snape made with Narissa, Draco's mother. However, I will prove that that thinking is not correct. First off, I believe that Professor Snape was only pretending to kill Dumbledore. On page 34 Snape says to Narcissa and Bellatrix, Narcissa's sister and a follower of the Dark Lord, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first." Then later on, on page 36 when Professor Snape is making the unbreakable vow with Narcissa, she asks him, "Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?" He replies, "I will." She also asks him, " should it prove necessary if it seems Draco will fail will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" And he replies "I will." If Snape were to break the unbreakable vow with Narcissa, then he would die, but in the book he did not die so he did not break it. So, how then can Dumbledore be alive? Well simply put, Draco's deed that the Dark Lord orders was for Draco to try and kill Dumbledore, which he did, 3 times. Therefore Professor Snape did not have to kill Dumbledore. Once Harry and Dumbledore made it to the castles, Dumbledore kept telling Harry to go get Snape, "it has to be Snape." And when Professor Snape made it to, a-seemly-nearly-dead Dumbledore, lying on the ground, Dumbledore said to Snape pleasure. I think he did so, so that Harry could see Snape pretending to kill him. Furthermore, according to Hagrid, Professor Snape and Dumbledore were fighting in the Forbidden Forrest. According to Hagrid, Professor Snape said that he did not want to do "it" anymore, then Dumbledore say remember your promise. I think that Dumbledore wants the Dark Lord to think he is dead, so he can look for the other horcruxes (the keys to killing the Dark lord). With all of this, it looks like to me that Dumbledore was telling Snape to act like Professor Snape killed him. But I think Professor Snape did not want too. He knew he would have to give up teaching DADA (Defense Against the Dark Arts, a class at Hogwarts), seeing as how he could not stay at Hogwarts, if everyone thinks that he killed their headmaster, Dumbledore. Professor Snape really loves teaching DADA and does not want to give it up. In a conversation with Bellatrix and Narcissa, on page 27, Snape said unto them, talking about DADA, "He wouldn't give me the Defense against the Dark Arts job, you know. Seemed to think it might, ah, bring about a relapse tempt me into my old ways." Upon that Bellatrix replies, "This was your sacrifice for the Dark Lord, not to teach your favorite subject?" This seem to hint on that Professor Snape compares his "not being able to teach DADA" to Bellatrix, "who spent many years in Azkaban for him," him being the Dark lord (pg27). Also, Professor Snape was good at teaching DADA. Hermione even says to Harry , " I thought he sounded a bit like you When you were telling us what it's like to face Voldemort, you said it wasn't just memorizing a bunch of spells, you said it was just you , and your brains, and guts- well, wasn't that what Professor Snape was saying? That it really comes down to being brave and Quick- thinking?" ( 181pg). Hermione is clearly comparing Harry's teaching style, the one from book 5 Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix , to Professor Snape's teaching style ,and everyone Harry teaches, loves his teaching style. All of this goes to show that Professor Snape really likes teaching DADA and does not want to give it up for nothing. However, there is this question that has to be answered. What about Dumbledore's dead body? Well, lets start with this, Dumbledore knew that Draco "had been trying to kill him all year" (pg585). Also, in the cave on page 570 Dumbledore had to drink that potion in order to get to the Horcruxe, but R.A.B had all ready betting him to the Horcruxe. So R.A.B would have had to drink that potion too, which means that there should be no more potion for Dumbledore to drink. Professor Snape, the potions master at Hogwarts, said in book one, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, to his potions class "I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death" (pgg137). All of this means that the potion, Dumbledore drunk, was to help him stopper death. Plus, Dumbledore would have never allowed Harry to go on a mission that was that dangerous, one can tell that from the other 5 books. So it seem that Dumbledore fooled Harry into thinking he was hurt when in truth the potion more then likely helped Dumbledore fight off the Avada Kedavra spell that Professor Snape hit him with. Also, on page 596, after Dumbledore is blasts into the air "like a great rag doll, over the battlement and out of sight", he more then likely got up and cast a spell to make a fake dead body, that looks like him, appear. Furthermore, Dumbledore is R.A.B. On page 502 Dumbledore said that he and Harry were closer to the secret of finishing Lord Voldemort than anyone else. Plus, only Harry, Dumbledore, Lord Voldemort, and Professor Slughorn know of the conversation that Lord Voldemort and Professor Slughorn had about Horcruxes, and it could not have been Harry or Lord Voldemort, but it could have been Dumbledore or Professor Slughorn who has the Horcruxe, but more then likely it was Dumbledore. I believe that Dumbledore wrote that letter Harry found and signed it R.A.B, knowing that Harry was going to be the one who reads it. He was betting on Harry thinking someone else, has found the other Horcruxes, so Harry would not tried to go find them. This means that Dumbledore can look for the other Horcruxes, under a new name, without people getting in his way. So in short, Dumbledore is still alive and is acting under a false name in order to find the other Horcruxes. Professor Snape did forefeel his unbreakable vow to Narissa by the watching over of Draco, and Draco did try to kill Dumbledore 3 times. Also, Professor Snape really loved teaching DADA, and was good at it, and did not want to relinquish it to go back to a life on evil and darkness. Dumbledore had to beg Professor Snape to pretending to kill him. The potion Dumbledore drunk was to help him fight of the Avada Kedavra spell that Professor Snape used against him. The Dumbledore body that was found was a fake. Nothing is ever what is seems to be in Harry Potter, and in this case of Dumbledore dieing is no exception. Brandon. From ryokas at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 21:15:54 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:15:54 -0000 Subject: Inferi Shminferi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prep0strus" wrote: > > Was anyone else rather unimpressed with the Inferi? I mean, aside from > the extreme echhh/jibblies factor, they didn't pose much of a > challenge. [RANT] Word. When I got my hands on the first four chapters of the book from rather questionable sources (hey, the bookstores wouldn't be opening for eight hours) the Inferity caused me to doubt their validity. Throwing in a terrible weapon completely out of the blue screams "FANFIC" - doubly so as these were used during the first war and yet went unmentioned. Furthermore, the name is completely out of JKR's style. After carefully avoiding direct Christian references for several books she changes gears outright, and when my perverted mind sees that she's making a significant exception and naming it approximately "from Hell", it expects to witness something that immediately brings the name to mind. Zombies? Pshaw. What fantasy series hasn't got zombies? Have Lord Voldemort stitch the worst creatures the Wizarding World has got to offer into one utter monstrosity that powerful Dark magic just keeps from bursting. Im their defense, the Inferi at the lake appeared to be operating well below capacity, likely due to LV's orders. Snape's picture of a victim of an Inferi (very little left) makes it rather clear that they're packing a punch. Perhaps they're like the zombies of Planescape : Torment, where being punched by them is likened to being kissed by a sledgehammer. I was prepared for undead but fully expecting the things to be literally on fire themselves. It would resemble the eerie green flames of Warcraft III:s Burning Legion rather too much but the style factor is undeniable. [/RANT] - Kizor OBLIGATORY HYPE: Since I mentioned it. Planescape : Torment is one of the best and most underrated PC games. While it sold poorly, it presents a strong plot, an unprecedented game world and is one of the few games that can honestly be called art. Note that the name contains "Torment". Nobody said it was nice. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 9 21:16:53 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:16:53 -0000 Subject: A few thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137078 Geoff: While rereading HBP, some thoughts occurred to me which some of you might also have had. We are aware of JKR's habit of dropping little sentences into the books which suddenly take on significance at a later date and a couple of these crossed my mind - mark you, they may turn into latter day "Mark Evans". '"Oh, hi, Luna." "I went to the hospital wing to find you," said Luna, rummaging in her bag. "But they said you'd left..." She thrust what appeared to be a green onion, a large spotted toadstool and a considerable amount of what looked like cat litter into Ron's hands, finally pulling out a rather grubby roll of parchment that she handed to Harry...... ..."What is this, by the way?" he (Ron) added, holding the onionlike object up to eye-level. "Oh, it's a Gurdyroot," she asaid, stuffing the cat litter and the toadstool back into her bag. "You can keep it if you like, I've got a few of them. They're really excellent for warding off Gulping Plimpies."' (HBP "Lord Voldemort's Request" pp.397-398 UK edition) Is this going to be significant or is it just another example of Luna's dottiness? A second little addition to the mix.... '"Anyone we know - ?" asked Ron, as Hermione scanned the headlines. "Yes!" said Hermione, causing both Harry and Ron to gag on their breakfast, "but it's all right, he's not dead - it's Mundungus, he's been arrested and sent to Azkaban! Something to do with impersonating an Inferius during an attmepted burglary... and someone called Octavius Pepper has vanished... oh and how horrible, a nine-year-old boy has been arrested for trying to kill his grandparents, they think he was under the Imperius Curse..."' (HBP "The Unknowable Room" p.428 UK edition) Should we be speculating on who Octavius Pepper is? Just a name out of the blue maybe? Not even a student at Hogwarts, like Sally-Ann Perks or even another local kid such as Mark Evans... OK, over to PACT (Paranoid Association of Conspiracy Theorists). Finally: '"Kill me then," panted Harry who felt no fear at all but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward - " "DON'T -" screamed Snape and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, "- CALL ME COWARD!" And he slashed at the air; Harry felt a white-hot, whiplike something hit him across the face and was slammed backwards into the ground. Spots of light burst infromt of his eyes and for a moment all the breath seemd to have gone from his body..' (HBP "Flight of the Prince" p.564 UK edition) Anyone got any ideas on this spell? I'm convinced it's not "Sectumsempra" and I don't think it's the spell which Dolohov threw at Hermione in OOTP. From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Tue Aug 9 21:27:19 2005 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:27:19 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: >> We learned in PoA that eyewitnesses to murder can get it all wrong. > If Jo wants to have it that Snape is no more guilty of killing > Dumbledore than Harry is, she's left herself plenty of room. > > Pippin Renee (briefly, before leaving for a Tolkien! conference): I never thought to find myself on your side, Pippin - concerning Snape, that is :) - but on rereading PS/SS I came across an interesting remark made by Dumbledore when Harry returns to gaze into the Mirror of Erised. DD tells Harry that wearing an invisibility cloak can make one short- sighted. When Harry witnesses Snape kill DD, he *is* wearing his invisibility cloak. Maybe he's missing something, like he missed DD's presence in the Mirror room, all those years ago. Renee From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Tue Aug 9 22:21:39 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:21:39 -0000 Subject: A few thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Finally: > > '"Kill me then," panted Harry who felt no fear at all but only rage > and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward - " > "DON'T -" screamed Snape and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, > as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in > the burning house behind them, "- CALL ME COWARD!" > And he slashed at the air; Harry felt a white-hot, whiplike something > hit him across the face and was slammed backwards into the ground. > Spots of light burst infromt of his eyes and for a moment all the > breath seemd to have gone from his body..' > > (HBP "Flight of the Prince" p.564 UK edition) > > Anyone got any ideas on this spell? I'm convinced it's > not "Sectumsempra" and I don't think it's the spell which Dolohov > threw at Hermione in OOTP. I don't think Snape hit Harry here with a spell at all. I think Buckbeak came to defend Harry and hit him in the face with his wing in the process of going after Snape. Snape slashed his wand in the air as he saw Buckbeack coming at him and, of course, Harry thinks Snape is cursing him. Harry also thought Snape was casting the Cruciatrus on him earlier in the chapter, when it was actually another DE. Another instance of Harry wanting to blame things on Snape (which I can't blame him for after the way Snape has treated him, and after what he witnessed in the tower). Cheryl From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 9 22:37:41 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:37:41 -0000 Subject: A few thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: > While rereading HBP, some thoughts occurred to me which some of you > might also have had. > '"Oh, hi, Luna." > "I went to the hospital wing to find you," said Luna, rummaging in > her bag. "But they said you'd left..." > She thrust what appeared to be a green onion, a large spotted > toadstool and a considerable amount of what looked like cat litter > into Ron's hands, finally pulling out a rather grubby roll of > parchment that she handed to Harry...... > Auria writes: I think that the cat-litter-like substance may be significant, mainly because it is SO absurd. I have always wondered what happened to Luna's mother who she saw die (and hence could see the Thestrals in book 5). Perhaps she was also killed by the DEs. What do you think? From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Tue Aug 9 22:47:08 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:47:08 -0000 Subject: A few thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137083 > Auria writes: > I have always wondered what happened to Luna's mother who she saw die > (and hence could see the Thestrals in book 5). Perhaps she was also > killed by the DEs. What do you think? Didn't Luna say somewhere that her mother liked to experiment with spells and one went horribly wrong? Wonder what kind of experimentation she was doing? Cheryl From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 9 22:47:58 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:47:58 -0000 Subject: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137084 > So in short, Dumbledore is still alive and is acting under a false > name in order to find the other Horcruxes. Professor Snape did > forefeel his unbreakable vow to Narissa by the watching over of > Draco, and Draco did try to kill Dumbledore 3 times. Also, Professor > Snape really loved teaching DADA, and was good at it, and did not > want to relinquish it to go back to a life on evil and darkness. > Dumbledore had to beg Professor Snape to pretending to kill him. The > potion Dumbledore drunk was to help him fight of the Avada Kedavra > spell that Professor Snape used against him. The Dumbledore body > that was found was a fake. Nothing is ever what is seems to be in > Harry Potter, and in this case of Dumbledore dieing is no exception. > > > Brandon. Hi Brandon I like your theories as they kind of agree with what I have been thinking that Dumbledore is not really dead. I like your idea that the 'poison' which Dumbledore drank from the cave actually helped him fight off the AK curse - that maybe R.A.B actually switched the original poison with a protective potion. I have also been wondering the significance of Slughorn's ability to metamorphasize into an armchair at the beginning of the book. This may mean that Slughorn could have changed and posed as someone else - perhaps Dumbledore's body? What do you think? Auria From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 9 22:50:14 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:50:14 -0000 Subject: A few thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mompowered" wrote: > > Auria writes: > > > I have always wondered what happened to Luna's mother who she saw > die > > (and hence could see the Thestrals in book 5). Perhaps she was also > > killed by the DEs. What do you think? > > Didn't Luna say somewhere that her mother liked to experiment with > spells and one went horribly wrong? Wonder what kind of > experimentation she was doing? > > Cheryl Hi Cheryl Yes you are right - I'd forgotten about that! Oh well, strike that theory off the list :-) Auria From lealess at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 22:52:18 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:52:18 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ehren" wrote: > -- SNIP -- > Neville mentioned in the HBP that he was on of the last people to > purchase a wand from Ollivander before. > > "Cherry and Unicorn hair," he said proudly. "We think it was one of > the last Ollivander ever sold, he vanished the next day.." pg137 US > Paperback. > > Are their any other theories on this? It could be nothing, but we > have yet to see Neville's bigger part to play and this seems like one > of JKR's insignificant details that comes up in a later book. (Just > like I forgotten completly about the Hand of Glory and what it did in > CoS and was suprised by its reapearance in HBP). > > Ideas anyone? > > Ehren lealess I have been wondering if it is a match to Snape's wand, actually (with, of course, nothing to back this up -- it just seems like an interesting idea). Priori Incantatem, anyone? lealess From oiboyz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 23:03:34 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 23:03:34 -0000 Subject: Inferi Shminferi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137087 "prep0strus" wrote: > Was anyone else rather unimpressed with the Inferi? Yeah, if all you need is fire to hold 'em off, how hard can they be? But Dumbledore tells us that Voldemort fears darkness and death. So maybe LV has chosen to protect his Horcrux with the scariest things he can think of. Perhaps the point of the Inferi isn't the physical damage they can do but the terror they can create. I know *I'd* be scared witless... Think of the door that required a tribute of blood to open. LV probably thought he was being devastatingly clever, but DD was completely unimpressed. There's another case of LV misjudging what will *really* hurt his enemies, because he fears different things than they do. -oiboyz From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 23:34:37 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 23:34:37 -0000 Subject: What was Dumbledore's extra protection on the school? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137088 Geoff: ...A few weeks ago, I referred to a Biblical example in the case of St. Paul, who as Saul of Tarsus, set out to crush the early church and was not too fussy about the methods he used such as imprisonment and killing. He was at the stoning of Stephen, not as one of the perpetrators but egging them on from the side. Then the Bible narrative records that he met the risen Christ and, realising the mistakes he had made, became a totally different man who went on to be possibly the finest worker for Christ of his generation. And there are modern day parallels within the church. vmonte: This is interesting Geoff. I actually think that if JKR was to use St. Paul's story it would make more sense to use it for Snape. I do not think that Snape has yet made a "spiritual" conversion to the good side. I believe (I know that most of you don't) that Snape is just too ruthless a character to have had any kind of "aha" moment-- yet. I do think however, that his anger at Harry for calling him a coward (at the end of HBP) might be suggestive of someone who is unconsciously feeling guilt for what he has done. I think that Dumbledore is the only person that loved, trusted, and respected Snape--ever. And I think that this is going to start to eat away at Snape. I could see Snape freaking out if he were to see some kind of resurrected form of Dumbledore (in the love room perhaps?) or... I keep thinking of the Draught of the Living Death potion that was SO ready and available at the school. That potion could SO easily have been used to avoid killing Dumbledore at the end of HBP. If Dumbledore knew what Draco's mission was about why wasn't he prepared? Why does he tell Harry that he has made other precautions to protect the students at the school? What were they? Was the precaution something to do with protecting Draco? (Aside from the assisted suicide theory.) I think that Dumbledore was genuinely surprised that Draco was able to get people into the school, so I'm thinking that DD's extra precautions were more about Draco's task. (I also think that Dumbledore was not expecting Snape to do what he did. He seemed so tragically stunned by Snape--very sad.) Did Dumbledore have an alternate plan involving Slughorn? The reason why the unused Draught potion bothers me so much is that in every book the kids ALWAYS use all the creatures, items, lessons and spells learned to save themselves or others. That didn't happen in HBP. Why? So here are a few things that keep nagging at me... 1.What does Slughorn need with all that spider venom? (Doesn't spider venom paralyze the victim?) 2. Wasn't there also vat of polyjuice somewhere? 3. And why wasn't the Draught potion used? The ability to paralyze, disguise, and fake a death...NOT USED???? WHY!!! Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 00:08:24 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:08:24 -0000 Subject: The Truth..Slughorn and Dumbledore: Death, act 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137089 Auria: I like your theories as they kind of agree with what I have been thinking that Dumbledore is not really dead. I like your idea that the 'poison' which Dumbledore drank from the cave actually helped him fight off the AK curse - that maybe R.A.B actually switched the original poison with a protective potion. I have also been wondering the significance of Slughorn's ability to metamorphasize into an armchair at the beginning of the book. This may mean that Slughorn could have changed and posed as someone else - perhaps Dumbledore's body? What do you think? vmonte: Yes, I was thinking about the arm chair incident too. I wonder if Slughorn is another metamorph? He is also a very theatrical kind of man. Just look at how he put together his own "fake" death. I'm thinking more on the lines that Slughorn approached Dumbledore and proposed the idea that he should have back up plan in case...hint hint nudge nudge. If anything was set-up it was between DD and Slug. JKR has already alluded to the fact that DD made a gave error regarding something/someone...maybe, just maybe she is talking about Snape. (Snape's redemption may come in the final act.) If DD's death is a fake it looks more like a Slughorn-type theatrical extravaganza... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 00:17:30 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:17:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve Memories (Was: Snape's Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137090 houyhnhnm wrote: > > Clearly, Snape knew which memory, he was in the pensieve with Harry. > > I have had some questions about Snape's use of the pensieve and the > other two memories, though. > > When someone withdraws a memory and places it in the pensieve, does > the person lose the knowledge that the memory contained? > Perhaps neither Snape nor Dumbledore anticipates Harry's being able to break into Snape's mind. Because, it seems to me, the memories Snape would be most concerned about hiding from Harry would not be childhood/teenage humiliations, but his meetings with Voldemort. (which we didn't know were taking place when OotP came out, but we know now.) Carol responds: First I want to note that Dumbledore's memories would not have been mixed with Snape's. You take your memories out to examine them (as DD does) or protect them from detection by others (as Snape does) but then you put them back in your head. Or, if it's not your own memory, you probably put it back in a labeled bottle or vial. (Dumbledore is not adding new memories to the mix in HBP as he does in GoF when he's trying to figure out who put Harry's name in the goblet and all the other mysteries in that book. IIRC, it's a clean Pensieve and one or two new memories each time.) The question of what happens to the memory when it's taken out of your head is one I'm not prepared to answer. I don't think the objective memory that the Pensieve shows is replaced by the subjective one that the wizard would access if he tried to remember events without using the Pensieve--a Legilimens could just as easily access that version of the memory as the real one, with more or less equal damage. But it seems inconceivable that the wizard would have no recollection of the memory at all except that he put it in a Pensieve or a crystal vial. Surely Snape knew even as he and Harry were struggling through the Occlumency lessons what he had concealed from him? Maybe it was only the details, the physical representation of the memory rather than the more abstract awareness of the event that he was trying to conceal. (???) At any rate, I do think Snape anticipated Harry accidentally breaking into his mind. There's really no other explanation for putting those memories in the Pensieve. But why only three and why include that one? Was it really his worst memory, worse than being nearly killed by a werewolf, worse than whatever he did as a Death Eater? What about his overhearing the Prophecy and telling Voldemort? That makes three, but what about his past as a Death Eater? And since he's a double agent whose real loyalty is still in doubt, at least in OoP when he hasn't yet been trapped by the jinx on the DADA position and the Unbreakable Vow, shouldn't he conceal his reports to *both* Dumbledore and Voldemort from Harry, who could so easily ruin everything by learining too much? It makes no sense to me that Snape would hide that humiliating little incident, unendurable as it still is to him, and not also hide whatever would tie him to Voldemort and undermine Dumbledore's trust. Even if he is loyal to Dumbledore (and I believe he is), he has still received the Dark Mark, sworn loyalty to the Dark Lord, and performed we don't know what services for Voldemort before turning spy for Dumbledore and then teaching at Hogwarts. And he would not want Harry to hear his explanation to Voldemort for his absence from the graveyard and his thwarting of Quirrell (much like the one he gives Bellatrix in HBP), much less the reasons he gives for not killing the Potter boy. Three memories? What are the other two and why only three? And while we're at it, I do think the Aurors will search Snape's office after the events in HBP as other posters have mentioned, but like Fake!Moody before them, I doubt that they'll find anything incriminating, certainly not stored memories (bottled, not Penseived since Snape doesn't own a Pensieve). Potions from previous years, pickled creatures, books, marked and unmarked essays, and personal possessions in his living quarters behind the office--things he'll miss and will never see again, just as he'll miss the galleons he earned this year and will never receive. IMO, Snape had nothing to gain by killing Dumbledore and everything to lose (his position, his respectability, his cover, his personal safety), and I don't think he believed it would really happen, even with the jinx on the DADA position and the Unbreakable Vow. He's now the most wanted man in the WW (next to Voldemort), with neither home (he can't safely return to Spinners' End) nor mentor (Voldemort is nobody's mentor). However precarious his position as double agent, however tedious his teaching of "dunderheads," both had to be preferable to what he has now--especially if an ungrateful Draco is still in tow. Carol, who thinks that Draco, Snape, and Dumbledore fell together into a trap of Voldemort's making From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 00:20:09 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:20:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Pensieve (was Re: Snape's pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137091 > Carodave: > > However, the DD's pensieve is still at Hogwarts...presumably filled > > with DD's memories...interesting. Marianne S: > I think the pensieve could be quite helpful! There are four major things > I would love for it to show. > > 1) The conversation between Dumbledore and Snape that shows exactly > why the headmaster trusted Snape. > 2) What agreement (if any) was made between Dumbledore and Snape > about killing Dumbledore, protecting Draco, etc. > 3) If Snape, the one whose quick action saved Dumbledore over the > summer from the effects of the ring, knows about the search for > the horcruxes, and > 4) What EXACTLY happened at Godric's Hollow on that fatefull day... > from Snape's perspective if he was present. Jen: Except there wouldn't be any memories in the Pensieve unless Dumbledore left them out, right? We always see people pulling the memories from their heads, or dropping them out of a bottle. I'd love to see the memories you mention above, Marianne, but wonder if DD would just leave them there after a contemplation session. Snape leaving the Pensieve out was purely accidental (or not, as some people believe) but either way Dumbeldore was prepared the night of the cave, he didn't run out unexpectedly. I guess I just picture Dumbledore being extremely careful with his memories, that he would stick them back in his head after mulling them over. That's not to say in the five minutes Harry went to get his invisibility cloak, Dumbledore didn't intentionally drop the memory of why he trusted Snape into the Pensieve, just to be on the safe side.:) After all, Harry's just discovered Snape was the eavesdropper and Dumbeldore *knows* the mission may be extremely dangerous. It would be like him to leave behind evidence for trusting Snape, finally, so nothing will be misunderstood after the fact. Jen From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 10 00:35:03 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:35:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve Memories (Was: Snape's Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137092 Carol responds: > First I want to note that Dumbledore's memories would not have been > mixed with Snape's. houyhnhnm: I wasn't suggesting that they were, only that, since the idea to teach Harry occlumency is Dumbledore's and the pensieve is Dumbledore's, it must have been Dumbledore who was concerned about Snape's memories either influencing Snape or being seen by Harry. For the rest of your comments, I pretty much agree. It doesn't make sense. If being up-ended and up-robed at the age of 15 really is Snape's worst memory, it kind of blows the ESE Snape theory out of the water. > Carol, who thinks that Draco, Snape, and Dumbledore fell together into > a trap of Voldemort's making houyhnhnm: I definately agree with that! From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:11:06 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:11:06 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyljd" (snipped)wrote: > > We are treated to a rather sympathetic back-story of Tom Riddle in > HBP. Could this mean he is capable of some form of redemption? If > there is more Snape back-story, you can be certain it will NOT be > sympathetic. After all, JKR has said that Snape's knowledge of love > makes him EVEN MORE CULPABLE than Riddle. Perhaps this puts Snape > in the beyond redemption column for JKR. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Was.....that a sympathetic back story for TOM?? I was sympathetic to his mother, but not to him, he was a braty little git from the first moment Dumbledore saw him......I don't see where Tom Riddles story was...um..Sympathetic unless you mean from his mothers point of view... As for JKR's comment about Snape being Culpable, it was because he had been loved, that suggests to me that he would understand love. In that she is saying Snape is more culpable than Riddle because Riddle never loved and can't love. So, what would that imply--To me that means Riddle can't be saved if he can't love or understand love. Then from that comment I draw that Snape can because he understands love. The key point here is what is Snape culpable for? Is JKR talking Book 7 Culpable....Is she talking Book 1-6 Culpable, or is she talking about His past?? Or is it all together in one big lump culpable. Its really hard to say with JKR's comments, as, lots of times like the book, people see her comments and the books themselves in a different lite. Many people can read the same chapter and come off with a different interpritation of it, so, we can all read the Culpable line and get something different from it. "ladyljd" wrote: > > More and more, I believe JKR sees Snape himself as immaterial to the > story. Yes his actions will be a major trigger of the final outcome > but his ability to direct or (pun intended)spin this tale have come > to an end. If there were a poll on this, I'd vote for him to be > dead by or before chapter 13 of book 7. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I don't know...Snape immaterial, huh?? The only thing I can say to that is, Book 6 is called Half Blood Prince, we all are left with the idea that Snape is the Half Blood Prince, what EXACTLY did we get about Snape really, where his house is, what he told Belle and Narcissa, His mom and Dad's name? It seems to me we got more about Tom Riddle than we did about Snape, SOooo....If the book was Titled HBP and Snape is the HBP, then why did we get....little drips about him writting in a book...mommy and daddy's name....sheash. Why does she save so much about Snape? It seems sparingly little really when the book is titled after him. Really we got hardly anything about him IMO, and we got a lot LOT LOT of speculation over what was going on really, Most of the theories are about Snape....Did he really kill Dumbledore...why didn't he kidnap Harry, how come Harry looked Lame fighting Snape...etc etc, and WE STILL have people wondering who's side he is on. I'm sorry, JKR thinks Snape is immaterial.....If he is good or evil, I don't think Snape is immaterial to JKR, I think he is way more importaint than she is willing to admit. "ladyljd"wrote: Her hero MUST be proven right at all > costs. Harry is her hero and he has fixed his opinion of Snape > after careful thought - and at a very late stage in this story. He > cannot be wrong and remain Our Hero. Therefore, whatever his > actions and/or motives, Snape MUST be proven to be evil through and > through. All of his actions throughout the series can be taken at > face value. There is no more depth to this character. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Since when does a Hero have to always be right, I though a Hero should be someone when they realize they are wrong admits it and can learn forgivness and can go on and do the task at hand whatever it may be. IF heros were always right, there would be a WHOLE lot more heroic people living instead of dead. War stories are filled with Heros that die for others, die for mistakes, or just die, and as an old favorite cartoon character of mine says, There is a thin line between being a hero and being a memory. OK, I remember that JKR said somethint to the effect of..I made a Pefect Hero in Harry, why do all you girls like the bad guys...or I'm paraphrasing here. But...I'm sorry, Perfect is boring if you ask me, and if she thinks Harry is perfect or anyone else outthere thinks he's perfect.....then The world is more screwed up than I though. PERFECT does not make a HERO--Mistakes and learning from them DO. Now I might be coming off as if I don't like the kid, but I like Harry a lot, by he does make a lot of mistakes in the books about people and other things, so if JKR is going to make the hero right about everything in the books at the end...it seems a poor example to me since, he's been right half the time and wrong half the time...its sorta equal, and makes him more human. I will say yes, the book is called Harry Potter, but, I don't think JKR is going to just be thinking about Harry in the end--it would be a cheat to all the people who's favorite characters are other characters besides Harry, and I have NOT seen where this book is Just all about Harry. We basicly see the story through Harry's eyes, but this book has been about a lot of characters--we just get it form Harrys point of view. I also think Harry himself would be very ashamed to think this story has just been about him, I believe he would be rather imbarrised to think of it that way. Maybe Snape is evil, maybe he's just screwed up perminatly because of how the world is, but to me every single character in the book is flawed. In a lot of ways I see Snape and Harry as parallels of each other. JKR did say its more personal now, Harry and Snape-- So, I think by JKR saying that means, something big is going to happen between the two--personal means--feelings, not just I hate you I'm going to blast you for no good reason. We see in the scene in HBP where Harry is running after Snape....and we are witness to Snape becoming something of a surprise. We know he is powerful--he didn't send Lockhart flying across the room for nothing--but, we are suddenly shown BY SNAPE how inadiquite Harry is. Maybe JKR will give a reason for this, I don't know--but it sure looked like Harry was a fly getting swated to me. A lot of people have speculated that Snape was still teaching Harry their, Learn to close your mouth and use your mind Potter (sorry Paraphrasing here since I don't have my book open. The Snape having a expression of Pain is another point a lot of people make, and I can't see Snape after he just gave harry a workover getting all anksty pained expression just because Harry called him a coward. The spell he uses then was like he smacked Harry across the face. If we are to believe that Snape is an expert at getting into the kids minds, then he has known for a really long time what Harry thinks of him, I am reminded that in Book one on a skim through, during a chapter involving Christmas, when hagrid is bringing in a christmas tree....Harry actually says about Snape and Draco I hate them (paraphrasing) but he did say I hate, so....I see that if Snape has been using his mind reading skills on Harry at least some of the time, he would obviously get the I HATE YOU VIBE. Neither one have really given each other a chance I think, and thats the problem. It sorta reminds me of the whole Teenage Parent thing, at some point around 11-17 most teenagers pretty much think their parents or any authority figure is dumb...its when the most arguments between parents and kids happens it seems. Teens end up sometime even Hating their parents and having big drag um out fights and yelling matches over things....but a lot of time, in the end teens learn that their parents really did have their best interest at heart, even when it looked like the adults were really stupid.... Was Dumbledore Stupid to trust Snape.....maybe...and then again....maybe not, only book 7 will tell us....but, since the book is about mostly teenage stuff--I GOTA GOTA hope we are going to get more real teenage happenings, besides who is kissing who and the relationship LOVE TRIAGLE CRAP.....If thats all the symblace we get...meh...I don't know, the huggy kissy stuff, I mean, I'm just as romantic as all heck, but it did anksty me a little as to how much of that crap was in the book, I personally would have rather, I don't know, anything, we could have at least seen the rest of the HBP's house....or more DADA classes with Snape...instead of..oh look Hermione is chasing Ron with birds..ahahaha..meh...OK..I'm complaining now and I shouldn't (FOFLOL) ok, it was funny now that I think about it, but still....meh. I think JKR was getting all the LOVE ROMANCE and TEENAGE HOTTY TOTTY NESS out of the way so #7 is going to be more serious....sheash I hope so. Anyway, I have gotten way off topic here...but, I'm hoping book 7 will clear up all this mess, with less romantic ankstyness....well, at least a girl can hope.....wait, HOW come their is so much romantic anksty teenage love cray in the book that is supposed to be all about Snape......utter confsion on this point...HBP=Anksty Teenage LOVE...WTH??? hehe KarentheUnicorn From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:23:48 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:23:48 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137094 Betsy Hp: Draco feels honored in being *chosen*. Draco did not make a choice here, Voldemort did. And what's interesting is that Narcissa, in her exchange with Bellatrix, brings up the point that Draco is underage and therefore, according to the custom of the WW, unable to make an informed decision. vmonte: Narcissa is right that Draco is a kid and that he does not know what he is getting himself into. But the fact is that Draco was excited to join the DEs--he did out of his own free will. Betsy Hp: Exactly! Voldemort (with Bellatrix's help I'm sure) convince Draco that he's been given an honorable task. That Draco seems to buy the party line at first I agree with. But that doesn't change the fact that Draco was *given* this task. Draco did not choose it. vmonte: Yes, Voldemort is very good at manipulating people, Snape even mentions this to Harry during one of the occlumency lessons. But Draco still made the choice to become a DE. It's not until later in the school year that Draco realizes what he has gotten himself into. The scene with Moaning Myrtle for example reminds me of the scene with Quirrell crying in the classroom (SS/PS). A lot of pressure is being put on Draco to find a method to get the DEs into the school-- add the threats against his family... Betsy Hp: Draco didn't have a choice here at all. JKR makes that very clear, IMO. vmonte: I disagree. JKR makes it very clear that WE are responsible for our own actions. Betsy: Third, he makes sure that Dumbledore realizes that he *did not* invite Fenrir to the school (which implies to me that Draco, for the first time in his life quite possibly, is looking for Dumbledore's approval). vmonte: Draco is a racist pureblood. To Draco it doesn't matter whether it is Lupin or Fenrir..a werewolf is a werewolf is a werewolf... Betsy Hp: Honestly, I wouldn't have called Draco an innocent, myself, for the very reasons you brought up. Stomping a helpless Harry, nearly killing Katie and Ron, his use of Unforgivables don't call up images of fluffy bunny innocence to me, either. But Dumbledore said it, and if you think about how Draco parallels Harry... vmonte: Draco does not parallel Harry, he parallels Snape. Betsy: And in a round about sort of way, keeping his friends out of his tangles with Voldemort showed a form of compassion too...I get the impression that Crabbe and Goyle don't know what Draco is up to. "Look, it's none of your business what I'm doing, Crabbe, you and Goyle just do as you're told and keep a lookout!" (383) vmonte: He doesn't want his friends to know what he is doing because he wants the glory all for himself. It's the same reason why he didn't want Snape to get involved. Vivian From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 10 01:26:15 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:26:15 -0000 Subject: What was Dumbledore's extra protection on the school? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137095 > So here are a few things that keep nagging at me... > > 1.What does Slughorn need with all that spider venom? > (Doesn't spider venom paralyze the victim?) I was under the impression that Slughorn was concerned with the monetary value of the spider venom and unicorn hair. Of course, I could be wrong about this... > 2. Wasn't there also vat of polyjuice somewhere? Yes, there was in Slughorn's classroom, and it WAS used in this book -- to disguise Crabbe and Goyle as girls when they were on the lookout for Draco. > 3. And why wasn't the Draught potion used? Who knows, maybe it was:) Or maybe it will come into play in the next book. Maybe someone else used the draught (Emmeline Vance?) > The ability to paralyze, disguise, and fake a death...NOT USED???? > WHY!!! > > Vivian From mkbre0829 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 21:56:00 2005 From: mkbre0829 at yahoo.com (mkbre0829) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:56:00 -0000 Subject: Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137096 What a wonderful find .. HPfG. Just stumbled upon it while killing time instead of writing the lit review for my dissertation! I haven't time now to review all the notes, but I'm wondering what the members are saying about Snape. I know JKR muses over why folks so adore her self described "bad boy," but such is life. I can't accept that Snape is evil ... one of the world's great double agents, perhaps, but not evil. If he killed Dumbledore (and I'm not totally convinced APWBD is really dead), then I believe he did it at APWBD's behest in order to spare that little nit, Malfoy. I'm also thinking that SS is now exactly where APWBD wants him -- deep inside the workings of the death eaters and looking mighty grand in V's eyes. But, how is SS keeping V from seeing inside his mind? Is SS that great a legilums (sorry, I can't spell that one, in which case, he must be a very, very powerful wizard, yes? I know these aren't new theories, but I'd just like to hear what other's have to say. Also, may I throw out that Harry himself might be the missing horcrux? Any takers on that one? Ta for now! Mkbre. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 01:39:00 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:39:00 -0000 Subject: A few thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137097 > Geoff: > While rereading HBP, some thoughts occurred to me which some of you > might also have had. > > We are aware of JKR's habit of dropping little sentences into the > books which suddenly take on significance at a later date and a > couple of these crossed my mind - mark you, they may turn into > latter day "Mark Evans". > > edited ...... Gurdyroot...... edited > > Is this going to be significant or is it just another example of > Luna's dottiness? Valky: To me the Gurdyroot warding off Plimpies looks a little like the Garlic warding off Vampires myth. IMHO it might just be a Vampire joke. > > Geoff quotes another interesting tidbit: > > '"Anyone we know - ?" asked Ron, as Hermione scanned the headlines. > "Yes!" said Hermione, causing both Harry and Ron to gag on their > breakfast, "but it's all right, he's not dead - it's Mundungus, he's > been arrested and sent to Azkaban! Something to do with > impersonating an Inferius during an attmepted burglary... and > someone called Octavius Pepper has vanished... oh and how horrible, > a nine-year-old boy has been arrested for trying to kill his > grandparents, they think he was under the Imperius Curse..."' > > (HBP "The Unknowable Room" p.428 UK edition) > > Should we be speculating on who Octavius Pepper is? Just a name out > of the blue maybe? Not even a student at Hogwarts, like Sally-Ann > Perks or even another local kid such as Mark Evans... Valky: I don't know about Octavius, but I have wondered whether we should be concerned about Mundungus "impersonating" Inferi in a Burgulary. Mny of us have been holding Mung already under suspicion of coming into contact with Horcruxes. And if R.A.B is Regulus, and the Locket at 12 Grimmauld Place was the Horcrux... Mung in Azkaban could make for an interesting twist in Book seven. > > OK, over to PACT (Paranoid Association of Conspiracy Theorists). > > Finally: > > '"Kill me then," panted Harry who felt no fear at all but only rage > and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward - " > "DON'T -" screamed Snape and his face was suddenly demented, > inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling > dog stuck in the burning house behind them, "- CALL ME COWARD!" > And he slashed at the air; Harry felt a white-hot, whiplike > something hit him across the face and was slammed backwards into the > ground. Spots of light burst infromt of his eyes and for a moment > all the breath seemd to have gone from his body..' > > (HBP "Flight of the Prince" p.564 UK edition) > > Anyone got any ideas on this spell? I'm convinced it's > not "Sectumsempra" and I don't think it's the spell which Dolohov > threw at Hermione in OOTP. Valky: I agree with you Geoff, that its neither curse. Overall it seems like a painful hex, but not dangerous. My first thought was that Snape had "slapped" Harry, with something that had the extra effect of kicking him in the gut at the same time hence winding him. It could be something relatively new among Sevvies inventions, it seems to be bitter and angry like the Sectumsempra, but also at the same time a restrained sort of attack. Which seems to me IMO to mesh nicely with the general changes and developments in Severus' character since his childhood. From deadly curses and violent threats to viper(white hot) tongue and vicious (kick in the guts) anger. I took it very much to be a sign that Snape had tried to turn a leaf in his book for real, just as DD believed. Of course it's also possible that he was just using a restrained attack to preserve Harry for his master Voldemort, but I just like the thought that the creations reveal the man in Snape. Just something extra I noticed in this passage on my first read. "DON'T -" screamed Snape and his face was suddenly demented, > inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling > dog stuck in the burning house behind them, Did this make anyone else think to themselves that the Dog (whom I realise is Fang but otherwise) stuck in the building behind them was an allusion to Sirius? Valky From AllieS426 at aol.com Wed Aug 10 01:40:39 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:40:39 -0000 Subject: Why protect the Malfoys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137098 Does anyone else think that it was extraordinarily forgiving of Dumbledore to offer protection to the Malfoy family? I can *kind of* understand why he would offer to protect Draco (despite his arrogance and racism and attempted murder)- he's still a child, he's being coerced, he doesn't actually want to commit the murder, Dumbledore wants to think the best of people, etc. We haven't really seen Narcissa in action being evil, although she did alert the Death Eaters to Harry and his friends going to the MoM last year. I wouldn't be surprised if she was an active participant in DE activities either, although she does seem quite a bit more sane than her sister. (It'd be hard not to be.) Why offer to protect Lucius??? That, to me, is going above and beyond the call of duty. Lucius Malfoy was a willing participant in the activities of the Death Eaters the last time around, and he joined up right away as soon as Voldemort returned. He has, I'm sure, committed his share of crimes and unforgivables. I can't come up with a good reason for offering him protection, other than solitary confinement in Azkaban! Allie From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:44:38 2005 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:44:38 -0000 Subject: Who is the RAB? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137099 I do not know if this has been posted, I attempted a search but the many posts instantly put a stop to that. The first name to come to mind on reading about RAB in HBP was of Regalus Black. R*B... All that we need to know is his middle name; I find this name the most likely as it would tie in with Sirius. Perhaps we could simply start a list and if anyone has a name that they would like to add they can put it here, and their comments below. We could then take time to argue them in turn. Regalus Black From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:47:26 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:47:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Pensieve (was Re: Snape's pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137100 > > Carodave wrote: > > > However, the DD's pensieve is still at Hogwarts...presumably > filled > > > with DD's memories...interesting. > > Jen wrote: Except there wouldn't be any memories in the Pensieve unless > Dumbledore left them out, right? > That's not to say in the >five minutes Harry >went to get his > invisibility cloak, Dumbledore didn't intentionally drop the >memory > of why he trusted Snape into the Pensieve, just to be on the safe > side.:) Saraquel: I must admit that I'm still extremely annoyed with DD for appearing to underestimate the danger to himself on that fateful night and not making sure that Harry was filled in on a few necessary details when he had opportunities to do so: vis Before he drank a potion in the cave that seemed to have every indication of being able to think for itself (joke) and whilst he was flying (in a re-energized state) back over the walls of Hogwarts to a tower crowned by the Dark Mark. Both of these were Obvious Life Threatening situations, in my opinion, and should have rung bells for DD At least DD should have indicated to Harry what he meant when he said that Love was Harry's greatest weapon (see end of my post for grovelling, pleading re this!) Even if he still thought Harry should merely take his word on whether Snape was trustworthy. So after all that long rambling I am hoping that DD has left Harry some information/instructions somewhere and I would think that the pensieve is a good place to start. Secondly, my thoughts on what happens to memories when stored in the pensieve. To my mind there is a contradiction in JKR's approach. It seems that Snape was using the pensieve in the occlumency lessons as a temporary store-place, for memories he did not want Harry to access, which would imply that you can take them out of your head. Although I've read some excellent arguments about this, see Carol's post, (137090, and btw can someone tell me how you insert a link to a particular post) at the moment there does not seem to be another good reason for Snape to have extracted his memories. However, this seems to be contradicted by Slughorn's sluggish memory, as there is overlap between the sluggish and the real memory. They both start in the same way in the room with all the boys there. Strictly, if Slughorn parted with his memory to DD, then the only thing he would be able to recall when Harry asks him for it, would be *just* the fragments which he had previously tampered with. > Marianne S: > > I think the pensieve could be quite helpful! There are four >major > things > > I would love for it to show. > > 4) What EXACTLY happened at Godric's Hollow on that fatefull day... > > from Snape's perspective if he was present. I don't think DD was at GH so he would not have a memory of it, and even if Snape was there, there is no guarantee that DD would have his memory. However, Harry doesn't actually have to go to anyone else to find out what happened at GH. He was there, he will have a memory of it. As JKR has pointed out (See the Mugglenet/LC interview) the magic of the pensieve is that it re-creates the *complete* scene for you, so it doen't matter that Harry was just a baby and didn't understand what was happening. I think Harry is going to realise this when he visits GH at the start of book 7, then he has to come to terms with travelling into that memory and watching his parents die for him. I just hope he takes Ron and Hermione with him for that one. Of all the things Harry has had to face, if JKR takes this route, which I think she will, this one will be the real test. I suspect that what Harry will find out about GH, through his own memory, will include Snape in some way trying to save Lily's life, which will really confuse him. JMO. Saraquel Who is going to take this opportunity to plead and grovel for someone to please, please post something on how *Love saves the day* for Harry. I've tried twice to get this discussion going and no-one has posted a reply. For my last attempt see message 136797 No AKs ? just the ministry room of love. I think this is such an important thing to discuss. I've seen stuff on how Harry needs to toughen- up/learn occlumency/learn legilimency/learn avada kedavra ? but I haven't read (admittedly, it might have been posted but missed by me, if so please point me to it.) anything on how we are interpreting DD's insistence that *Love is all you need.* I really think that this is the way JKR is going to resolve the plot, and I for one would really like to discuss it. Anyone else think like me please? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:48:53 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:48:53 -0000 Subject: Why wasn't the Draught of Living Death used to save Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137101 vmonte wrote: > I actually think that if JKR was to use St. Paul's story it would make more sense to use it for Snape. I do not think that Snape has yet made a "spiritual" conversion to the good side. I believe (I know that most of you don't) that Snape is just too ruthless a character to have had any kind of "aha" moment--yet. > > I do think however, that his anger at Harry for calling him a coward (at the end of HBP) might be suggestive of someone who is unconsciously feeling guilt for what he has done. I think that Dumbledore is the only person that loved, trusted, and respected Snape--ever. And I think that this is going to start to eat away at Snape. > > I keep thinking of the Draught of the Living Death potion that was SO ready and available at the school. That potion could SO easily have been used to avoid killing Dumbledore at the end of HBP. > > The reason why the unused Draught potion bothers me so much is that > in every book the kids ALWAYS use all the creatures, items, lessons > and spells learned to save themselves or others. That didn't happen > in HBP. Why? >> > 3. And why wasn't the Draught potion used? > > The ability to paralyze, disguise, and fake a death...NOT USED???? > WHY!!! Carol responds: Vivian, while I don't see Severus Snape as the wholly evil person you do and I think he was trapped into the Unbreakable Vow and into fulfilling it, I do agree that he is the St. Paul character and that Dumbledore is the only person who trusted and respected Snape. I think he will have a moment of Redemption (capital R--it's a very important theme) and that it will involve the Draught of Living Death. First, to answer your preliminary questions, I think that both Snape and Dumbledore knew Draco to be a coward who would never dare face Dumbldore without Death Eaters to back him up, and both of them trusted to the protections on the castle (blocked secret passages, no apparition, no brooms, secrecy sensors, Aurors and Order members protecting the corridors). Neither of them anticipated Draco's bringing DEs into Hogwarts via the linked vanishing cabinets. As for the potions, Snape must have kept some on hand (e.g., veritaserum in GoF) when he was Potions master, but those were his own supplies and not potions made for lessons. Slughorn does the same with the Felix Felicis, which he presumably brewed at home during his retirement, before the DEs started hounding him. Draco managed to steal a bit of Polyjuice Potion at the end of a class period (he would never have managed that under Snape's eagle eye), but I imagine that Slughorn evanescoed the rest after the class was over. He doesn't seem to have any potions or antidotes on hand when Ron is poisoned--in fact, he's at a total loss in that scene. It's only luck and the memory of HBP/Snape's words that saves Ron. Another thing--Snape has already saved Dumbledore from death from the ring Horcrux, but he has no way of knowing that Dumbledore is on the point of death from drinking the locket Horcrux poison. All he knows is that Death Eaters have entered the school. Even if there weren't four Death Eaters at the top of the tower with Dumbledore and Draco, he could not have saved Dumbledore at that point. He doesn't have the DLD with him. And if he'd had it and had tried to administer it, the vow or the Death Eaters would have killed him. A sad irony all around, including the timing on Dumbledore's part. He did indeed take too much for granted, whether or not that includes Snape's loyalty. Nevertheless, JKR's habit of introducing potions, spells, characters, and motifs before they become important suggests to me that we *will* see the Draught of Living Death in Book 7--in association with Snape, who first brought it up in the very same scene (SS/PS, "The Potions Master") where he first mentioned bezoars. I also think (and now I'm entering the realm of pure speculation) that the character whose death is faked will be Harry. Now I'm going to go way out on a limb and propose a scenario which I know will be regarded as preposterous by the virulently anti-Snape faction (only a few of whom would be rude enough to say so directly), and which even the Snapeophiles may shake their heads at. I care not, as Boromir says. I have no real stake in this idea, which I won't dignify by calling it a theory or even a hypothesis. We know that Harry's blood protection will expire as July 30 turns into July 31. It seems likely that Voldemort knows this as well and that there will be a battle on Privet Drive when Harry steps out the Dursley's door for the last time. (I think, as an aside, that Mrs. Figg will perform magic at an advanced age under dire circumstances and that she'll summon the Order.) Almost certainly, Snape, now Voldemort's second in command whatever his true loyalties, will be there and will be leading the DEs. Putting together his actions at the end of HBP, it is at least remotely possible that Snape could thwart anyone other than himself who attempted to AK Harry, cast what appeared to be an AK but was really an Impedimenta (see my other posts on the resemblance of the supposed AK in HBP to an Impedimenta) to "kill" Harry, order the other DEs to disperse (as he did in HBP), and then send a message via his Patronus to the Order members saying he had bought Harry time to find the Horcruxes and suggesting that they use the Draught of Living Death to fake his funeral. I'm not saying that any such thing will happen. It probably won't. But I do feel sure that the Draught of Living Death will play a crucial role in Book 7 and that the person whose death is faked will be Harry. And I think, given the fact that it's Snape who introduces the potion to us in the very first book, that he will play an important part in this scenario, however it plays out. Dumbledore's words about faking death ("He can't kill you if you're already dead") in the American edition of HBP seem to add weight to this possibility. So even if you don't buy my scenario (and I don't expect you to), I hope you'll draw comfort from what seems to me the near certainty that the Draught of Living Death will indeed play a crucial role in Book 7. Carol, holding out hope for the theme of redemption and believing that Dumbledore was right to trust Snape even if Snape himself was unworthy of that trust From ongj87 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:43:55 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:43:55 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137102 Ehren: Are their any other theories on this? It could be nothing, but we > have yet to see Neville's bigger part to play and this seems like one > of JKR's insignificant details that comes up in a later book. I'm rather under the impression that Neville will somehow betray Harry in one way or another, whether he does it conciously or not. There's a part in PoA in which Harry is imagining (this is prior to him finding out the truth about Sirius and Peter) Sirius killing Peter Pettigrew. In his mind, he imagines that Pettigrew looks something like Neville Longbottom. I can't help but think that JK was trying to drop a hint here. Maybe it's just me - ongj87 From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:49:46 2005 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:49:46 -0000 Subject: Why protect the Malfoys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > Does anyone else think that it was extraordinarily forgiving of > Dumbledore to offer protection to the Malfoy family? I can *kind > of* understand why he would offer to protect Draco (despite his > arrogance and racism and attempted murder)- he's still a child, he's > being coerced, he doesn't actually want to commit the murder, > Dumbledore wants to think the best of people, etc. > > We haven't really seen Narcissa in action being evil, although she > did alert the Death Eaters to Harry and his friends going to the MoM > last year. I wouldn't be surprised if she was an active participant > in DE activities either, although she does seem quite a bit more > sane than her sister. (It'd be hard not to be.) > > Why offer to protect Lucius??? That, to me, is going above and > beyond the call of duty. Lucius Malfoy was a willing participant in > the activities of the Death Eaters the last time around, and he > joined up right away as soon as Voldemort returned. He has, I'm > sure, committed his share of crimes and unforgivables. I can't come > up with a good reason for offering him protection, other than > solitary confinement in Azkaban! > > Allie What to be gained, to be gained, to be gained...Just think, one of Lord Voldemorts most influential Death Eaters in the pocket of Dumbledore (RIP). If the entire Malfoy family is in danger of being murdered by their master, don't you think the most obvious way out would be Dumbledore's offer, although I think that Lucious would be far too arrogant to take the protection himself, but with him, his son, and his wife all in danger, who could deny? Baseball From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 01:57:49 2005 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:57:49 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137104 > I'm rather under the impression that Neville will somehow betray > Harry in one way or another, whether he does it conciously or not. > There's a part in PoA in which Harry is imagining (this is prior to > him finding out the truth about Sirius and Peter) Sirius killing > Peter Pettigrew. In his mind, he imagines that Pettigrew looks > something like Neville Longbottom. I can't help but think that JK > was trying to drop a hint here. Maybe it's just me > > - ongj87 Do you seriously think that he would do this after what happened to his parents, his teacher, and to so many of his classmates relatives. Couldn't you tell by his determination in OOTP how much he would like to kill Bella Lest. I see him no more attracted to the 'dark side' that Harry. Baseball From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 02:17:49 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:17:49 -0000 Subject: Why wasn't the Draught of Living Death used to save Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137105 Carol responds: As for the potions, Snape must have kept some on hand (e.g., veritaserum in GoF) when he was Potions master, but those were his own supplies and not potions made for lessons. Slughorn does the same with the Felix Felicis, which he presumably brewed at home during his retirement, before the DEs started hounding him. Draco managed to steal a bit of Polyjuice Potion at the end of a class period (he would never have managed that under Snape's eagle eye), but I imagine that Slughorn evanescoed the rest after the class was over. He doesn't seem to have any potions or antidotes on hand when Ron is poisoned--in fact, he's at a total loss in that scene. It's only luck and the memory of HBP/Snape's words that saves Ron. vmonte: You know, you're right. I don't like that Slughorn does nothing here. Carol: ...Nevertheless, JKR's habit of introducing potions, spells, characters, and motifs before they become important suggests to me that we *will* see the Draught of Living Death in Book 7--in association with Snape, who first brought it up in the very same scene (SS/PS, "The Potions Master") where he first mentioned bezoars. I also think (and now I'm entering the realm of pure speculation) that the character whose death is faked will be Harry. vmonte: I don't know, it's possible. But it reminds me of Romeo and Juliet, and you know how that ended. I'm also thinking of the moment in HBP where Dumbledore tells Harry what his favorite jam is just in case he ever needs to make sure who he is... Carol: ...We know that Harry's blood protection will expire as July 30 turns into July 31. It seems likely that Voldemort knows this as well and that there will be a battle on Privet Drive when Harry steps out the Dursley's door for the last time. (I think, as an aside, that Mrs. Figg will perform magic at an advanced age under dire circumstances and that she'll summon the Order.) Almost certainly, Snape, now Voldemort's second in command whatever his true loyalties, will be there and will be leading the DEs. vmonte: Oh yes, this is definitely going to happen, but Petunia will be the witch. HAHA--serves her right! Carol: I do feel sure that the Draught of Living Death will play a crucial role in Book 7 and that the person whose death is faked will be Harry. And I think, given the fact that it's Snape who introduces the potion to us in the very first book, that he will play an important part in this scenario, however it plays out. Dumbledore's words about faking death ("He can't kill you if you're already dead") in the American edition of HBP seem to add weight to this possibility. So even if you don't buy my scenario (and I don't expect you to), I hope you'll draw comfort from what seems to me the near certainty that the Draught of Living Death will indeed play a crucial role in Book 7. Carol, holding out hope for the theme of redemption and believing that Dumbledore was right to trust Snape even if Snape himself was unworthy of that trust. vmonte: I agree Carol, the potion is coming back. By the way, I like outlandish theories! :) Vivian From andie1 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 02:18:52 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:18:52 -0000 Subject: The Truth..Slughorn and Dumbledore: Death, act 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: If DD's death is a fake it looks more like a Slughorn-type theatrical extravaganza... I really want to believe that DD is alive and he's just playing a Slughorn... but, the only thing that makes me think that he must be dead is the portrait in the Headmasters's Office. How could he be in the portrait if he isn't dead? Would it be possible to fake something like that I wonder? grindieloe :) * who is happy not to be arguing about Harry and Ginny this time! :) * From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 10 02:49:04 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:49:04 -0000 Subject: No AKs - just the Ministry room of Love Was (Re: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > So what sort of love are we talking about here. We are talking > about something that has the power to blow Voldemort and his AK > curse out of the water at GH. This is not, lovey, dovey, ooey, > cooey stuff. This is the sort of love that strips you down naked > and forces you to face yourself as you are. Although I've never > read these books looking for religious overtones and until recently, > assumed they were written without religious overtones (not belonging > to any specific religion myself), I think the love we are talking > about here is a sort of Last Judgement Love. A love that crushes > evil and crushes the evil in you. Now I don't think that Harry has > the capability to produce/express that sort of love. But I do think > however, that having a whole/complete soul that fundamentally loves > will be good enough for him to survive in the presence of that type > of love. > > Let's go back to the Department of Mysteries and a room in the > basement which is full of the power of Love. Well it made short > work of Harry's knife, when he tried to open the door. Let's say > that Harry collects together Voldemort's Horcruxes (this is a theory > in the making, don't expect all lose threads tied up here) including > Nagini if he can get his hands on her ? perhaps he can sweet-talk > her in parseltongue. Then they all go for a picnic down to the > Ministry and Harry sends Voldemort an invitation via his patronus ? > "Harry and the Horcruxes cordially invite you to a firework display > in the room of Love. Dress code: funerial" You will note that the > reason Voldemort couldn't possess Harry at the ministry in OotP was, > according to DD, because Harry was full of love and Voldemort could > not stand it. > > OK, what happens next? Well . There are a few options but this is > the one I like at the moment: > > Harry somehow lures Voldemort into the Room of Love, not that > difficult if he has all Voldemorts Horcruxes in his hands as bait. > The Room of Love is like a gigantic mirror in which one sees > everything about oneself illuminated in the light of what is Right ? > with a very big capital R. At that point there is blinding self- > realisation, which brings about internal agonies which the cruciatus > curse can only hint at. (Anyone who has gone through an "Oh my god > how wrong I was about that one" moment, will be quite well aware of > just how painful self-realisation can be ? which gives you a hint > that I've been there :-) ) One sees oneself measured against > perfection, and motives count. Hence it will not be an easy ride > for Harry either. All this crucio stuff against his enemies will > come back to haunt him at this point, and he too will have to go > through the mill and out the other side. But his pure untarnished > soul should get him through it. However, for Voldemort and his evil > Horcrux bits, there will be literally, hell to pay. Quite whether > this will kill Volemort or just leave him crumpled and vanquished, > or what I don't know. Neither have I tackled the How-does-this- work- > with-the-prophecy angle. But I'm sure someone will point it out to > me if it doesn't work!! > > But look - Voldemort vanquished and no AKs in sight. Neither, btw, > in this scenario does Harry have to do any complicated magic to > destroy the Horcruxes and risk being killed in the process. I must > admit that I really like this theory and have had it for at least a > year now. Book 6 hasn't invalidated it at all IMO. > > Saraquel > Who wasn't going to do another post today .. I really like this idea. It also works if you believe Harry's scar is an unintentional horcrux and would be a way for Harry to eliminate Voldemort, his horcruxes, and the part of Voldemort in him without sacrificing himself to do so, perhaps elimiating the scar and Voldie abilities like parseltongue (which I think Harry would be happy to part with). In any event, I think that door in the DOM will come into the next book somehow. Cheryl From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 10 02:49:11 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:49:11 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137109 Cheryl: > Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. Im > a Prince :) houyhnhnm: I took this as tongue-in-cheek when I first read it, but the idea has really grown on me in the past few days. It's not just the anagram. (which has a precedent) It's the books. Snape lives in a house lined with bookshelves from floor to ceiling--like a library. If Madame Pince really is Snape's mama hiding out at Hogwarts in Dumbledore's witness protection program, maybe that's the reason Snape came over to the good side (or a condition of Snape's coming over to the good side). Maybe that's why Dumbledore "trusts Severus Snape". And maybe that wasn't really Madame Pince behind the long black veil. ;-) From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Aug 10 02:59:53 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:59:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why protect the Malfoys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137110 In a message dated 8/9/2005 9:41:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, AllieS426 at aol.com writes: > Why offer to protect Lucius??? That, to me, is going above and > beyond the call of duty. Lucius Malfoy was a willing participant in > the activities of the Death Eaters the last time around, and he > joined up right away as soon as Voldemort returned. He has, I'm > sure, committed his share of crimes and unforgivables. I can't come > up with a good reason for offering him protection, other than > solitary confinement in Azkaban! > Why? Because that's DD's job. He's the protector, the second-chance giver. As long as DD was alive and head of Hogwarts, there was someplace for people to go, someone to go to who would do his level best [and a very good best it was] to protect ANYONE. In all of canon DD has always given people [even Tom Riddle/Voldemort] a second chance, a chance no one else would grant them. Look at the list: Snape, Remus, the giants, MWPP after the Prank, Mundungus, Slughorn. He gave chances and mostly got rewarded. His major failure seems to have been Tom Riddle and now Severus Snape. I wouldn't be surprised if that was WHY LV wanted him dead. To cut off a line of retreat. For the sheer terror and despair effect. Currently no DE has a place to flee to. Draco and Snape are now trapped, just as LV wanted. I suspect that that ability to give second chances is part of his method for defeating LV, part of the 'Love magic' LV doesn't understand. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 03:29:41 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:29:41 -0000 Subject: The Truth..Slughorn and Dumbledore: Death, act 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137111 grindieloe: I really want to believe that DD is alive and he's just playing a Slughorn... but, the only thing that makes me think that he must be dead is the portrait in the Headmasters's Office. How could he be in the portrait if he isn't dead? Would it be possible to fake something like that I wonder? vmonte: Yeah, I know what you mean--and you may be right. I'm going to add something here that is going to upset a lot of people. But here it goes... :) __________________________ This is from an essay I read at The Sugar Quill: 'Oh, look!' said Ginny, as they drew nearer, pointing at the very heart of the bell jar. Drifting along in the sparkling current inside was a tiny, jewel- bright egg. As it rose in the jar, it cracked open and a hummingbird emerged, which was carried to the very top of the jar, but as it fell on the draught its feathers became bedraggled and damp again, and by the time it had been borne back to the bottom of the jar it had been enclosed once more in its egg. 'Keep going!' said Harry sharply, because Ginny showed signs of wanting to stop and watch the egg's progress back into a bird. 'You dawdled enough by that old arch!' she said crossly, but followed him past the bell jar to the only door behind it. "As we all know, the Department of Mysteries keeps reserve stocks of abstract concepts for research purposes. Not just any abstract concepts, in fact, but the mysteries of humankind (Death, Love, Time, The Future, The Universe, The Human Brain ). Ginny seems to be fascinated with time, for reasons which we can only guess. Would she like more time? Does she have an affinity to the concept (unknowingly freezing it to get Snitches from under people's noses, perhaps)?" ________________________________________________________________ vmonte again: So Harry is mesmerized with death (the arch) and Ginny with time (the jar). In HBP we see Ginny pick a maggot (death again) out of Harry's hair. Is Ginny going to save Harry by changing or manipulating time? Is this some kind of foreshadowing? Time-turners? Is Ginny's patronus a phoenix? I also like how the word draught is included in the description for the bird. Just throwing it out there... Vivian http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=ginny2 From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 10 03:43:25 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:43:25 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > >> We learned in PoA that eyewitnesses to murder can get it all > wrong. > > If Jo wants to have it that Snape is no more guilty of killing > > Dumbledore than Harry is, she's left herself plenty of room. > > > > Pippin > > Renee (briefly, before leaving for a Tolkien! conference): > > I never thought to find myself on your side, Pippin - concerning > Snape, that is :) - but on rereading PS/SS I came across an > interesting remark made by Dumbledore when Harry returns to gaze > into the Mirror of Erised. > > DD tells Harry that wearing an invisibility cloak can make one short- > sighted. When Harry witnesses Snape kill DD, he *is* wearing his > invisibility cloak. Maybe he's missing something, like he missed > DD's presence in the Mirror room, all those years ago. > Marianne: Well, maybe so, but that's Dumbledore's fault. He was the one who told Harry before the beginnign of the school year to keep the Invisibility Cloak with him at all times. So,is Dumbledore guilty of encouraging Harry to blind himself to the existence of different interpretations of what Harry actually sees, simply because he's got his trusty cloak with him? From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 03:51:08 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:51:08 -0000 Subject: LOVE Saves the Day in the end WAS Re Dumbledore's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137113 > Saraquel > > Who is going to take this opportunity to plead and grovel for > someone to please, please post something on how *Love saves the day* > for Harry. I've tried twice to get this discussion going and no-one > has posted a reply. For my last attempt see message 136797 No AKs ? > just the ministry room of love. I think this is such an important > thing to discuss. I've seen stuff on how Harry needs to toughen- > up/learn occlumency/learn legilimency/learn avada kedavra ? but I > haven't read (admittedly, it might have been posted but missed by > me, if so please point me to it.) anything on how we are > interpreting DD's insistence that *Love is all you need.* I really > think that this is the way JKR is going to resolve the plot, and I > for one would really like to discuss it. Anyone else think like me > please? Valky: I'd love to Saraquel. The only problem is we aren't given a whole lot of canon about how it will be. Here are a few of my own ideas. The Room of Love: As we know, this room is Always Locked. The secret to getting into it hasn't been revealed but DD has revealed to Harry that this room is full of the Power that he needs to Vanquish Voldemort. I think at some stage Harry will become curious about that room and the Trio will sneak back into the MOM to get into that room. The three of them will spend a while figuring out how to get in, and then by chance Hermione and Ron will discover that *they* can go in, *together* because the Love between them is the key to the door. Outlandish, I know, and to what end, I dont really know. I guess Ron and Hermione will come out changed and enlightened by what the found in the room, or that the Love from in the room will transfer itself to inside of them making them in one way or another invaluable to Harry in his fight against Voldie. The first Confrontation between Harry and Voldemort: In the TLC/Mugglenet interview, JKR said that she felt she had established Ginny and Harry as *equals*. This choice of words interests me immensely because in the Prophecy people being *equals* seems to be a key point. I have often wondered if Voldemort was trying to secure himself a living *equal* for a Horcrux as the final step in his plans for immortality. I think this because of the fact that he *acts directly through* Nagini, something he doesn't do with other Horcruxes. And he seems to be unusually fond of her and has an extraordinary amount of control over her even for a Parseltongue. Somehow Harry shares this connection with them, which leads me to believe that Voldie *always* intended to be connected to someone this way, I don't think its an accidental side effect of a failed AK. So on to the point of all this. If we place the two "couples" side by side. Voldie and Nagini are Voldies idea of *equals* IOW they are *both him* and he is in control so they are *equal on his terms* and Harry and Ginny are Harry's (JKR's) idea of *equals* They are both strong and brave, have both been through huge emotional steps to get to the point where they are, both have survived Voldemort trying to kill them so they are somewhat in an equal level of experience facing Voldies powerful will. And there is where we might be able to see the way Love will be n important thing in this confrontation. The bond between Ginny and Harry, is love, while the bond between Voldie and Nagini, is something else. BOth Harry and Voldie possess Voldies powers, which I would say include his extrordinary abilities of Legilimency and possession. Harry has already stumbled unintentionally into the mind of Nagini and briefly into Snapes during Occlumency. I would not be surprised if DD and Snape, knowing that Harry was endowed with Voldies powers, were as deliberately cautious about what Harry would see as well as what they thought Voldie might see. I like to add these three things together because it delivers an extrordinary possibility in the climactic scenes that looks a little like this: Like in the end of OOtP Voldie tries his most powerful weapon on Harry, the one that shook DD to his boots, he takes ossession of someone that Harry loves. Ginny. With Ginny's voice he tells Harry to kill him now, and he attacks Harry with Ginny's body. Then Harry does something so instinctive that he doesn't even know he's achieved it until its done, He enters Nagini. Now if Voldemort is to kill Harry, he must kill Nagini (A Horcrux! The only thing that he loves, Himself!). This leaves the battle in a kind of Stalemate, I know. But some major possibilites are opened that echo the Man with Two Faces Chapter of PS/SS, like the way Harry embraces Quirrel while the touch of Love in Harry's skin burns the Quirrel!Mort. This could again happen, this time with Harrys love for Ginny being the thing that burns Voldie, possibly driving him to destroy his own Horcrux Nagini in the process and forcing him out of Ginny finally alone and mortal. The Final confrontation: I posted something about this one earlier, it was based mostly on the premise of Harry being an accidental Horcrux, and Voldemorts last thing between himself and Death. I still like tht one, and a scenario without Harry as a Horcrux really hasn't come to mind yet. But I'll work on it. Valky Hoping this will give Saraquel something to chew over about Love in the Final battle. From Nanagose at aol.com Wed Aug 10 03:52:11 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:52:11 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137114 > Cheryl: > > Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. > Im a Prince :) > houyhnhnm: > > I took this as tongue-in-cheek when I first read it, but the idea > has really grown on me in the past few days. It's not just the > anagram. (which has a precedent) It's the books. Snape lives in a > house lined with bookshelves from floor to ceiling--like a library. > If Madame Pince really is Snape's mama hiding out at Hogwarts in > Dumbledore's witness protection program, maybe that's the reason > Snape came over to the good side (or a condition of Snape's coming > over to the good side). Maybe that's why Dumbledore "trusts Severus > Snape". And maybe that wasn't really Madame Pince behind the long > black veil. Christina: I LOVE this theory. There's been a thread on Pince being Snape's mom, but I don't think it went far enough to suggest that Dumbledore might be hiding Mrs. Snape. Maybe Snape slipped up a bit as a young Death Eater and LV threatened Momma Snape's life (I'm getting a little giddy at the endless possibilities)? And she's described as having a "hooked nose" (page 307 of US HBP) I mean, come ON- who is the only other character that has one of those? It's practically Snape's signature physical trait. I love the idea that this might be the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape. JKR likes to surprise us, but you can always go back in the text and say, "Ohhh, look! It was there all along!" I strongly believe that we've had a hint or two as to Dumbledore's reason for trusting Snape, and we just haven't recognized those hints as such. This would be *perfect*, just classic JKR (or, you know, I can dream). (HBP, US, page 591) "Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise." (end quote) Perhaps good old Dumbledore has offered to hide someone's mom before? ...And just as a little aside, for the curious among us, the name "Irma" means "Goddess of war" or "noble." Huh. Christina From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 05:16:07 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:16:07 -0000 Subject: No AKs - just the Ministry room of Love Was (Re: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137115 > Saraquel: > In the world of the book it has been made very clear that using > any of the unforgivable curses is being seduced by the dark arts. > Harry now has natural rage and vengeance coursing through him and > all he wants to do is inflict pain on those who have inflicted > pain on him. But this is the easy option, not the right option ? > to quote DD's homily. Is Harry ever going to have the skill and > the opportunity to AK Voldemort or Snape ? er No I don't think > so. If Harry thinks he can beat Voldemort or Snape at their own > game then ? end game as far as I'm concerned. JMO of course. Jen: This is very true, Harry cannot follow this course. But he is starting to dabble more in dark magic in HBP, especially when his anger gets the best of him. That scene with Harry chasing Snape across the grounds as Snape flicks off all of Harry's spells is the main reason why I believe there's some good in Snape. Unlike Bella, who taunts Harry in OOTP, and even attempts to teach him the *right* way to cast an Unforgiveable (shades of Barty Crouch, Jr. as well), Snape takes the hard line here: "No Unforgiveable curses from you, Potter!" Saraquel: > Harry is not a particularly impressive wizard. He has his > specialities but otherwise he's fairly ordinary, and I think JKR > deliberately made him that way. Dumbledore is a master wizard, > and in his opinion, Love is the thing. Dumbledore has always > thought this, Voldemort sneers at him for this in the scene in the > pensieve where he comes ostensibly to try and get the DADA job. > Harry dismisses it almost, when Dumbledore reveals to him that it > is his weapon. It seems that members of the list may well agree, > that love is not enough. But I'm with DD on this one, and I >suspect that we're sailing in JKR's boat too. ** Love is all you > need.** Jen: I like Dumbledore's explanation at first, 'yes Harry, you *can* love'(chap. 23, p. 509), which somehow appeals to me more than just Love, and all the songs that go with that, lol. Harry's ability to love, to feel love, even though he's been abandoned, lived through a wretched situation at the Dursleys, seen all of his mentors die.... Harry must remain that way, with an intact soul and pure of heart, when he faces Voldemort after the Horcruxes are extinguished. I don't think Harry's a Horcrux, but I do think Voldemort underestimated once again by taking Harry's blood. And not because of Lily's protection factor, either. I think having Harry's blood will cause an effect like the brother wands, or the posession, and Voldemort won't be able to AK Harry. Once again the curse will rebound because Voldemort has Harry's blood in his veins. His *valuable* blood, according to Dumbledore, the blood of a remarkably pure soul who can love. Another in the long line of ways Voldemort chose his own enemy, and made him very powerful. Saraquel: > Let's go back to the Department of Mysteries and a room in the > basement which is full of the power of Love. Well it made short > work of Harry's knife, when he tried to open the door. Let's say > that Harry collects together Voldemort's Horcruxes (this is a > theory in the making, don't expect all lose threads tied up here) > including Nagini if he can get his hands on her ? perhaps he can > sweet-talk her in parseltongue. Then they all go for a picnic > down to the Ministry and Harry sends Voldemort an invitation via > his patronus ?"Harry and the Horcruxes cordially invite you to a > firework display in the room of Love. Dress code: funerial." Jen: Hee! I'm with you so far..... Saraquel: > Harry somehow lures Voldemort into the Room of Love, not that > difficult if he has all Voldemorts Horcruxes in his hands as bait. > The Room of Love is like a gigantic mirror in which one sees > everything about oneself illuminated in the light of what is > Right ? with a very big capital R. At that point there is > blinding self-realisation, which brings about internal agonies > which the cruciatus curse can only hint at. (Anyone who has gone > through an "Oh my god how wrong I was about that one" moment, will > be quite well aware of just how painful self-realisation can be ? > which gives you a hint that I've been there :-) ) One sees > oneself measured against perfection, and motives count. Hence it > will not be an easy ride for Harry either. All this crucio stuff > against his enemies will come back to haunt him at this point, and > he too will have to go through the mill and out the other side. > But his pure untarnished soul should get him through it. However, > for Voldemort and his evil Horcrux bits, there will be literally, > hell to pay. Quite whether this will kill Volemort or just leave > him crumpled and vanquished, or what I don't know. Jen: Your theory reminds me a little bit of Dorian Grey. It's been a long time since I read it, but it seems like the moment he puts a knife into the painting, all the 'sins' kept apart from his soul are torturously visited upon his current self. You know, this reminds me a little of the diary scene too, when Harry 'kills' the memory of Tom Riddle. And JKR said it was hard to write COS because she didn't want to give too much away? JKR also wouldn't comment on whether the locked room will be revisted in Book 7, which means it will! Just some ideas to push your theory along, don't know what you'll get from that stream of conciousness. You know, I like the idea the Horcruxes will be thrown in that room, or through the veil, to be destroyed. Sort of like Harry slipping the bezoar to Slughorn? Yeah, it was the easy way out but also clever, and Harry & Co. don't have much time left. I want to visit the locked room for another reason--to find out Lily worked in the DOM, perhaps in that very room, where she learned about the kind of love you're talking about. You suggested it might be a Last Judgement Love and I'm hoping for a form of Compassionate Love. I think that's the kind of love Dumbledore grew into over his lifetime, and when we learn more about DD in Book 7, as JKR *promised* ;), we'll find he was a boy and young man much like Harry. That he wanted to save the world, and he *did* save a portion of the world at Hogwarts, where he understood the importance of employing House Elves, offering the centaur herd & merpeople safe habitats, giving outcasts homes and jobs, teaching students that 'love is more powerful than {Voldemrt's} kind of magic.' (HBP, chap. 20, p. 444). That's a remarkable form of love to me. Jen From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 05:36:04 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:36:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c59d6d$8698e3d0$6521f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137116 KarentheUnicorn If we are to believe that Snape is an expert at getting into the kids minds, then he has known for a really long time what Harry thinks of him, I am reminded that in Book one on a skim through, during a chapter involving Christmas, when hagrid is bringing in a christmas tree....Harry actually says about Snape and Draco I hate them (paraphrasing) but he did say I hate, so....I see that if Snape has been using his mind reading skills on Harry at least some of the time, he would obviously get the I HATE YOU VIBE. Neither one have really given each other a chance I think, and thats the problem. It sorta reminds me of the whole Teenage Parent thing, at some point around 11-17 most teenagers pretty much think their parents or any authority figure is dumb...its when the most arguments between parents and kids happens it seems. Teens end up sometime even Hating their parents and having big drag um out fights and yelling matches over things....but a lot of time, in the end teens learn that their parents really did have their best interest at heart, even when it looked like the adults were really stupid.... Sherry now: I don't blame the enmity between Snape and Harry on Harry from the start. In the very first potions class, Harry didn't know Snape from any other teacher and had no reason to feel hatred. Snape immediately began to pick on him and showed his nasty immature nature. After all, as we learn through the series, Snape hated Harry from their first meeting solely because of who Harry's father was. This is childish in the extreme. Snape is the adult, and the blame goes squarely on his shoulders. I don't think Harry and Snape have a parental love/hate relationship. Snape has never been a parental figure to Harry. Snape hated him before ever getting to know him, before Harry even knew there was any reason Snape could believe worth hating him, and before Harry had developed his own hatred of Snape. Sherry From djklaugh at comcast.net Wed Aug 10 05:43:30 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:43:30 -0000 Subject: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137117 Christina writes: (Snip) Also, I find it difficult to believe that Snape's pensieve memory is incorrect just because of Lupin and Sirius's reactions to Harry telling them about it. (OotP, US, page 670) "Yeah," said Harry, "but he just attacked Snape **for no good reason**, just because - well, just because you said you were bored," he finished with a slightly apologetic note in his voice. "I'm not proud of it," said Sirius quickly. [...and a little later...] "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?" "Yeah, well," said Sirius, "you made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes...That was something..." [...down some more...] "She started going out with him in seventh year," said Lupin. "Once James had deflated his head a bit," said Sirius. "And stopped hexing people **just for the fun of it**," said Lupin. (end quote- all emphasis mine) If the Sirius and James felt "ashamed of ourselves" for their actions, they knew they were in the wrong. You don't feel shame for actions that have ample justification. Note that Harry specifically mentions that James and Sirius started the OWL incident without provocation from Snape, and not only do Lupin and Sirius refrain from making any sort of correction, Sirius even says that he's not proud of what he did. When talking about the prank in PoA (which IMO is a much more dangerous incident), Sirius says, "it served him right," but for this, Sirius just tries to explain why James and Snape disliked each other in the first place (putting the blame on both sides). If James was more injured that the pensieve memory showed, why didn't Sirius or Lupin make some kind of comment like, "Yeah, we hung him in the air, but you should have seen Snape attack James- he was gushing blood everywhere! So whatever we did to him was just." I have no doubt that Snape got his jabs in where he could and was probably pretty vicious, but I also see no reason to believe that his pensieve memory is wrong. Deb writes: Christina, I agree that the Pensieve memory is accurate, but I wonder if maybe our "up to now" interpretation of it is inaccurate - or incomplete anyway. I mean, Snape removed that memory to try to keep it from Harry, but why that particular memory? As I read this section (even for the 4th time) it starts out(after the part about the DADA exam) reading like an "oh no, here we go again" kind of memory... It reads to me like there have been many such scenes between Snape and the Marauders over the previous 5 years. Where it starts to deviate from that apparent pattern is when James is pressing Lily to go out with him.. "You think you're funny," she said coldly. "But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him *alone*" .... "I will if you go you with me,Evans," said James quickly. "Go on...Go out with me, and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again". ..... Then as Snape comes out of James' Impediment Jinx he lashes out with the Sectumsempra Curse and James lashes back with the Levicorpus (interesting that in 5th year both of them are able to do nonverbal spell casting). And we can not tell for sure if Snape is lashing out at James *just* because of what has gone before in this memory, from frustration and rage at a long history of bullying, or from jealousy. I wonder if what is "the worst" about this memory for Snape is that here he lost control - he who considers lose of emotional control equal to weakness. Here he used a potentially deadly curse against a school mate(though he obviously was quite controlled in the application of it). And here he said something as unforgivable (vis a vis social relationships)as any Unforgivable Curse.... he called Lily a "Mudblood". And with that, he immediately (from the sounds of her comments) destroyed any good will she had toward him. And although she might have been intervening between James and Snape in the first place just because she was a Prefect, she certainly made it clear that even that position would not induce her to intercede for him again. Plus she had been with girl friends prior to the interaction with James, Snape, and the others ... who undoubtedly witnessed all of this. Maybe Snape was attracted to Lily, or maybe "Florence" (if Snape was the one caught snogging her behind the greenhouse) was in the audience.. or someone else he was attracted to... So I wonder if, for Snape, this memory holds not only embarassment and humiliation, but also guilt and that squirmy ugly feeling one gets when remembering doing something so hideously *wrong* that one would gladly sinking straight into the earth and never come up again. I think this memory represents for Snape a pivotal moment in his adolescence. There may have been consequences from this - disciplinary action(will Harry come across that in the file boxes?) - but I'll bet that did not irradicate the horrible emotional and social consequences-- or the consequences he imposes on himself. (Snip) Christina: (Snip) but I find it really OOC for Snape to use a completely humiliating memory to prove that point. Snape pulls Harry out of the memory just as things start to get *really* humiliating. There's no way he could have planned his exit and re-entrance of the room in order to ensure that Harry would be interrupted right at the worst part. Also, I would think that if Snape just wanted to say "I told you so" to Harry (concerning James), he would have continued giving Harry Occlumency lessions just to gloat at him. If Snape really planted the memory for Harry to see, he would have followed it up with endless jabs- "See Potter, what do you think of old Dad now? *smirk* *sneer* *gloat*" We don't see any of this. In fact, we see the opposite. Snape throws Harry (*literally*) out of his office and refuses to give him additional lessons. He goes against Dumbledore's specific orders to teach Harry, and he *never* brings up the pensieve memory again. Snape is so angry that one of his jars explodes. Deb again: The in-control, unemotional Snape so angry - so passionate - he throws a glass jar at Harry? And goes against Dumbledore's orders to teach him Occlumency? Isn't it interesting that apparently only Harry and James have ever been able to shake his control like this? Snape who rags on Harry for 6 years (up to the end of HBP) to close his mind, to control his anger, to block, block, block so that no one can read him? Snape who can prevent Lord Voldemort from reading his emotions and memories and therefore can get away with lying to the Dark Lord - that master of Legilimency? And I think that is part of his anger... now Snape's memory is in Harry's memory... what would LV make of this memory being in Harry's mind? Has Snape lied to LV about this... is this one of the memories he talks about that would disprove a lie he has told to LV? Makes me wonder if Snape's mind - or maybe it's his emotions that are being laid bare - is not also being opened further than he can manage through these Occlumency lessons. For me the OOC moments for Snape come at other times... and on other treads :) (Snip) Deb- who very much needs a Pensive cuz there are too many thoughts and memories of HP incidences to keep track of in "normal" ways. From kfolta12 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 02:25:31 2005 From: kfolta12 at yahoo.com (kfolta12) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:25:31 -0000 Subject: Could Harry BE a horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137118 This has be bugging me for a few days. The wording of the prophecy "neither can live while the other survives" and also the "and the dark lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the dark lord knows not" seem to me, to suggest such a thing. The 5th book revolves around Harry's ability to see inside the mind of Voldemort and there is a bit near the end where Voldemort gets inside of Harry to get Dumbledore to kill him. There is also the issue of Gryffindor's "object". It's mentioned in book 6 that there is no surviving object for this single house. Ironically, the house that Harry (and his dad I believe?) is from. I was just wondering if anyone had any particular thoughts on this... kfolta12 From clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 03:26:02 2005 From: clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com (Ehren) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:26:02 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137119 ongj87: I'm rather under the impression that Neville will somehow betray Harry in one way or another, whether he does it conciously or not. There's a part in PoA in which Harry is imagining (this is prior to him finding out the truth about Sirius and Peter) Sirius killing Peter Pettigrew. In his mind, he imagines that Pettigrew looks something like Neville Longbottom. I can't help but think that JK was trying to drop a hint here. Maybe it's just me Ehren: I had forgotten about that dream, but if Neville betrays Harry I think it will be inadvertantly. I don't think Neville would betray his friends like PP did though. The DE's have don't to much to his family that he would go to their side. Another thing I cannot help thinking about is that Neville's wand contains unicorn hair. I cannot help but fear that this is a bad omen for Neville. "There's a unicorn been hurt- you seen anything?" (Hagrid) "Always the innocent are the first victims" Ronan said, "it has been for ages past, so it is now." SS pg253 (paperback). Cedric had unicorn hair in his wand (GoF, Weighing of the Wands) and he was definetly an innocent person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also, another person who has Unicorn hair in their wand in Ron. It also common storyline plot in Good vs Evil stories where the best friend's hero dies in some sacroficial way. Do we know of anyone else that has unicorn hair in their that has died or is still alive? Ehren From ladyljd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 03:31:16 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:31:16 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137120 > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > Was.....that a sympathetic back story for TOM?? I was sympathetic to his mother, but not to him, he was a braty little git from the first moment Dumbledore saw him...... ladyljd responds: I guess I saw it as sympathetic because he was a magical child left alone in a muggle world. Left to his own devices he had no checks and balances on his negative impluses. And it was clear his magical abilities frightend the adults around him and allowed him to act on his dark instincts without consequence. He had lots of justifiable reasons for being a jerk. And no opportunity to be confronted with his sociopathic tendancies until it was too late (Dumbledore's arrival). > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > Is JKR talking Book 7 Culpable....Is she talking Book 1-6 Culpable, or is she talking about His past?? Or is it all together in one big lump culpable.> ladyljd responds: I take her comment as culpable for his overall behavior: meaness to children, especially Harry; love of the dark arts; joining the death eaters; revealing the prophesy and its consequences; murdering Dumbledore; etc ... In all of these things JKR sees Snape as culpable and possibly past redmption. >ladyljd original post: > > > > More and more, I believe JKR sees Snape himself as immaterial to > the > > story. Yes his actions will be a major trigger of the final > outcome > > but his ability to direct or (pun intended)spin this tale have > come > > to an end. If there were a poll on this, I'd vote for him to be > > dead by or before chapter 13 of book 7. > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > I don't know...Snape immaterial, huh?? {snip...} Why does > she save so much about Snape? It seems sparingly little really when the book is titled after him. Really we got hardly anything about him IMO, ... {snip} ... ladyljd responds: If I'm right about the direction JKR will take this story, no further Snape back-story is really needed. HBP was about revealing Snape as evil. Whatever his motivations, Harry can take his actions at face value with no futher need to investigate. He just needs to know enough to stop ESE!Snape in the next installment. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > I'm sorry, JKR thinks Snape is > immaterial.....If he is good or evil, I don't think Snape is > immaterial to JKR, I think he is way more importaint than she is > willing to admit. > ladyljd responds: All of this is only wild speculation on my part based on what JKR writes in her novels and says in interviews. I certainly agree with you about Snape's importance to the story - or at least how important he is to my enjoyment of the story. I just believe JKR believes his story has been told in HBP. And I speculate that anything further distracts from the real story she's trying to tell. Her development of Snape has reached an end. There is precedent for this thinking in story arcs droped from OOTP to HBP. Her use of The Order, the DA and characters like Moody come to mind. They went from apparently important to back-burner. I can easily see Snape do the same between HBP in Book 7. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > Since when does a Hero have to always be right, I though a Hero > should be someone when they realize they are wrong admits it and > can learn forgivness and can go on and do the task at hand > whatever it may be. IF heros were always right, there would be a > WHOLE lot more heroic people living instead of dead. ladyljd responds: Again, I agree with you but I believe JKR has something else in mind for Harry. Throughtout the books his judgement as been questioned where Snape is concerned. If he is to lead the troops in book 7, he has to have some sort of authority. Since his magical abilites appear to be ordinary, perhaps it is his instincts at judging people that will be extraordinary. That's why I believe JKR needs him to be right about Snape. This is just more of my wild speculation. Thanks for the great discussion, Ladyljd From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 06:27:27 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:27:27 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137121 > Saraquel: > > > Harry somehow lures Voldemort into the Room of Love, not that > > difficult if he has all Voldemorts Horcruxes in his hands as bait. > > The Room of Love is like a gigantic mirror in which one sees > > everything about oneself illuminated in the light of what is > > Right ? with a very big capital R. At that point there is > > blinding self-realisation, which brings about internal agonies > > which the cruciatus curse can only hint at. (Anyone who has gone > > through an "Oh my god how wrong I was about that one" moment, will > > be quite well aware of just how painful self-realisation can be ? > > which gives you a hint that I've been there :-) ) One sees > > oneself measured against perfection, and motives count. Hence it > > will not be an easy ride for Harry either. All this crucio stuff > > against his enemies will come back to haunt him at this point, and > > he too will have to go through the mill and out the other side. > > But his pure untarnished soul should get him through it. However, > > for Voldemort and his evil Horcrux bits, there will be literally, > > hell to pay. Quite whether this will kill Volemort or just leave > > him crumpled and vanquished, or what I don't know. Valky: IMO this theory is really strong Saraquel, because I agree that we should look outside the box of Lovey dovey Mushy sweet things about Love when looking for this final Love that will defeat Voldemort. Throughout the series we have seen Love in forms of compassion, Friendship, sacrifice, loyalty.. all the sentimental stuff, AND we have also seen the Terrifying Power of Dumbledore *decidely not mushy*, we've seen Snape and Draco be very very good in some ways and Harry and Hermione be very very bad in others, we've felt sorry for Voldemort and we've been very p**sed off at Harry's Father, we've hardly been lead to think that the books are supposed to end with a mushy sentimental feeling conquering the bad guy, IMHO. So far Harry has used a sentimental Love against Voldemort (in OOtP), and it hurt him and he ran away. But it wasn't the end of Voldemort, it didn't destroy him. But what about it threatened him so much that he ran. I think this Power that Voldemort fears, must truly *be* terrifying and not just to Voldie. So I like Last Judgement Love, a lot. Because it *is* terrifying. And we have seen it, in Harry, several times these are the places in HBP I think we've seen it. After he Sectumsempra's Draco in the Bathroom - Harry is mortified by his own actions. It's a brutal honesty causing him such guilt that he's ready to bow to any punishment *anyone* is going to give him. He passes an immense judgement on himself here. When he sees the circumstances of Voldemorts Birth - Harry didn't have it all that easy as a baby. His Parents were murdered in cold blood before him, and yet, in the face of that very murderers painful childhood Harry harshly judges his own fortunes he figures himself to have it better than the person that *took everything from him*. This is an enormous feat. A selflessness like that is truly terrifying. I am with you on Judgement Love here Saraquel. As you can see. However, I think if it is within the room in the MOM, then perhaps Harry will be bringing it out to Voldemort. And there's one other thing: Harry's Blood doesn't directly figure in this scenario, so I'd like to find something that establishes the meaning of the Gleam as well. > Jen: > I want to visit the locked room for another reason--to find out Lily > worked in the DOM, perhaps in that very room, where she learned > about the kind of love you're talking about. You suggested it might > be a Last Judgement Love and I'm hoping for a form of Compassionate > Love. I think that's the kind of love Dumbledore grew into over his > lifetime, and when we learn more about DD in Book 7, as JKR > *promised* ;), we'll find he was a boy and young man much like > Harry. That he wanted to save the world, and he *did* save a portion > of the world at Hogwarts, where he understood the importance of > employing House Elves, offering the centaur herd & merpeople safe > habitats, giving outcasts homes and jobs, teaching students > that 'love is more powerful than {Voldemrt's} kind of magic.' (HBP, > chap. 20, p. 444). That's a remarkable form of love to me. > Valky: I agree that Dumbledore's love was remarkable. And for a long time he tried to instil the same compassion and goodness in others. I think there will be a compassionate love in the final confrontation and it will help Harry to win. By Saraquels theory Harry's Compassion would be a reason he survives the raw force of this "Judgement Love" which I like a lot, but I don't know how compassion itself could Vanquish Voldemort except that it could cause him to destroy himself to escape it if he couldn't run away. Unless you were hoping that Harry's compassion could somehow *save* Voldie from himself in the end? I wouldn't argue with an ending like that, if JKR figured a way to save Tom somehow it would be OK with me but somehow I think that in Harry's story LV can't be saved *and* kept alive it's one or the other dead or doomed IMHO. Valky From ladyljd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 03:41:02 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:41:02 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137122 > Pippin: > Well, Harry didn't need seven years of schooling to learn that -- > in fact his opinion of Snape hasn't changed much since his first > day of school. What's the point of it all, if Harry hasn't learned > to *think*? Ladyljd responds: Perhaps JKR's point is that Harry has learned to trust his own judgement. Throughout the series, Harry has been forced to subjugate his natural distrust of Snape to the views of others. He has forced himself to grin and bear it despite his instincts. Now, he has decided -- after years of negative experiences -- to trust his own judgement of Snape. And he's now leading others to be guided by his judgement. I believe this is JKR's growth for Harry. And in this case it can be said that Harry has not rushed to this judgement. > Pippin: > We learned in PoA that eyewitnesses to murder can get it all wrong. > If Jo wants to have it that Snape is no more guilty of killing > Dumbledore than Harry is, she's left herself plenty of room. ladyljd responds: Agreed. However, Harry's judgement is not solely based on what he witnessed on the Astronomy Tower. While I agree with your sentiments, I believe the argument can be made that Harry's actions were pure while Snapes were far from it. Of course, I prefer your view! Thanks, Ladyljd From verysherryk at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 04:52:36 2005 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (verysherryk) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 04:52:36 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137123 Ehren: > -- SNIP -- > Neville mentioned in the HBP that he was on of the last people to > purchase a wand from Ollivander before. > "Cherry and Unicorn hair," he said proudly. "We think it was one of > the last Ollivander ever sold, he vanished the next day.." pg137 US > Paperback. Very Sherry: Cedric Diggory's wand had a unicorn hair core: "Containing a single hair from the tail of a particularly fine male unicorn" GOF Am paperback page 309. Also, Ron's wand also has a unicorn hair core: "Look at this,' said Ron, 'Braind-new wand. Fourteen inches, willow containing one unicorn tail-hair" POA Am Edition, paperback pg 57. Very interesting, indeed. From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 10 05:39:21 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:39:21 -0000 Subject: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137124 "brandon" wrote: > I feel that Dumbledore is still alive... Some...might argue that > since Professor Snape used the Avada Kedavra, the killing spell, > on Dumbledore that Dumbledore must be dead....I believe that > Professor Snape was only pretending to kill Dumbledore... > Dumbledore knew that Draco "had been trying to kill him all year" > (pg585). I agree with most of your theory. I had just read Dumbledore's death again, and had other ideas about a fake death. Up until now, I had not been reading this type of thread, and don't think it's humanly possible to catch up on them, so my apologies if I have the same ideas as others have had. However, I tend not to... Avada Kedavra shouldn't have made Dumbledore fly up into the air. It didn't do that to Cedric. He just had a surprised look and fell, with his eyes open. Dumbledore's eyes were closed. Jo also mentioned he fell out of sight. So this is what I'm thinking. You have to really mean the Unforgivable Curses to do them, that has been mentioned several times. Snape is one of the strongest at Occlumency and Legilimency, maybe the strongest if he's fooling Voldemort, so he has excellent mind control. In this book, the usefulness of not saying an incantation was also stressed. What if Snape was able to say Avada Kedravra, not mean it, and instead do a non-verbal spell to send Dumbledore up into the air. Once out of sight, he could use a spell or turn into something to get him safely to the ground where he could play dead. We saw a similar idea at Slughorn's house - maybe Dumbledore even used the idea, much like Draco copied some ideas from Hermione and the DA. This is all recycling things Jo showed us. As far as the portrait appearing in the headmaster's office, they had time to think to include that in the plan, and to plan the funeral. At the funeral, the flames, followed by Harry thinking he saw a Phoenix fly away, followed immediately by the table being covered leaves me convinced that Dumbledore either flew away or Disapparated during that. Previously, whenever Harry "thought it was as if", it was, so why should this one be different? The barman of the Hogshead was mentioned as being at the funeral. That would be Aberforth Dumbledore, no? That reminded me that Albus and Aberforth looked somewhat alike. Albus could pass himself off as Aberforth, and continue to come and go from the Hogshead, as he had already been doing. That wouldn't be much of a stretch, either. Pat From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 06:23:27 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:23:27 -0000 Subject: Lupin as double agent (was Lupin as metaphor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137125 Pippin brought up an interesting theory: that Lupin may have helped Greyback escape from Hogwarts. We don't hear anything about Grayback after he was petrified, so there's no canon either way. We know that Dumbledore sent Lupin on his double agent mission. Pippin, are you theorizing that Lupin had already been a double agent working for the werewolves, or that Dumbledore's mission backfired, and Lupin was seduced to the other side? Do you think Lupin is loyal to Voldemort, or just to Grayback? I got the feeling that Grayback was loyal to himself, not Voldemort, and that Voldemort was just offering him the better deal, so that's where he was. If we want to stay away from ESE!Lupin, we could theorize that he helped Grayback escape only to maintain his status as double agent to the werewolves (sort of a parallel to the "Did Snape really do what he seemed to do" theories). Definitely food for thought! guz From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 10 07:13:44 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:13:44 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence (Re: The books are not about rape.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137126 > If you try to find Hermione a match in terms of magic knowledge, > well, I think the only match we have left is already dead, killed by > Snape. Or maybe Snape himself could be better match, hmmm, can you > imagine a fanfiction S/Hr? That should be fun to read :-). Greasy > kisses here and there, then jinxes all around, rocky ship! Try here: http://ashwinder.sycophanthex.com/index.php As for the ships: I can easily imagine Harry and Ginny. I do agree we did not see much of the actual development of the relation, but what we see of them interacting makes it to me believable they can have the kind of relationship that brings out the best in both of them. I am not happy with Ron/Hermione though. It was clear that JKR means them to be together, there is lots of tension between them, etc. etc. But I just cannot see them as a couple. What do they have in common? What will they talk about? One clear example why I feel so uncomfortable about this ship is the way Ron reacts when Hermione is having worries about her exam results. Ofcourse she has nothing to worrie about, yet she does. Does he help her overcome this problem? Does he support her? No, nothing, just the opposite. Can anyone convince otherwise? Gerry From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Wed Aug 10 07:31:45 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (Jason in Alaska) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:31:45 -0800 Subject: Delayed Test Results Message-ID: <818d77fa92fb5d6334d160e2ca211db2@jdbailey.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137127 Does it bug anyone else that Fred, George and Percy all get the results of their OWLs and NEWTs while still at school, while the trio have to wait until a few weeks before classes to get their results? I'm pretty sure at the end of PoA we find that Percy got several NEWTs and that George & Fred got a few OWLs....this was days after they sat the tests. I just find it to be inconsistent...guess I'm nit-picking.... Jason From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Aug 10 08:30:32 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 04:30:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair? Message-ID: <105.66a5e540.302b1528@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137128 In a message dated 8/10/2005 1:14:19 AM Central Standard Time, clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com writes: Do we know of anyone else that has unicorn hair in their that has died or is still alive? Ehren Hmm If I am remembering correctly Ron's first wand. . the one that was handed down from Charlie and that was broken during the Whomping Willow encounter also had unicorn hair. . (I think it was poking out of it) and so far Charlie's still alive. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Aug 10 09:28:57 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:28:57 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > The first time I read Dumbledore's comment > > -------------- > "Naturally I do, but as I have already proven to you, I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being ? forgive me ? rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger." > -------------- > > I took it to be a foreshadowing of his misjudgment of Snape. By >the end of the book, and rereading the second time, I believe that >even more firmly. I believe when push came to shove, Snape chose to >save his own live, by killing Dumbledore. I believe that from a >dramatic or storytelling point of view, this action, coupled with >this statement, is pretty much the pinacle of JKR's achievement in >this book. The betrayal of Dumbledore by Snape is one of the >riskiest things JKR could have done, and it gives the book, and now >the series, an emotional richness it would otherwise not be able to >attain. > I like being able to argue my point with someone who has the opposite view, so I will give you my take on DD/Snape. To me the most important comment wrt to this is in OOTP. DD to Voldemort (and I'm paraphrasing here!) 'It is your inability to realise that there are things worse than death that is your greatest flaw'. To me this suggests that DD would be perfectly willing to sacrifice himself to help Harry. But the question is why? Voldemort would never understand DD's sacrifice and therefore would regard Snape as 'honoured above all others'. Snape is therefore in a very powerful position to help Harry. IMO, the richness that you speak of can still be there. I think Snape's prejudice against Harry's father is going to nearly prevent him doing what DD has planned for him to do. But there is definitely some link between Snape & Lily (I suspect that this is the important bit of info on Lily for book 7). It will be Harry's eyes (his mother's eyes) that remind Snape of why he switched sides (how else can Harry's eyes be so important). > > > 3. From the POV of JKR: she's all but said, in her interview > > > last month, that Harry needs to look for the locket, the cup, > > > the snake, and the missing item. > > > > > What she said was - > > 'Harry now knows ? well he believes he knows ? what he's facing. > > Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't > > want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, `There are > > four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for > > Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.' > > Right. None of her quote contradicts the contention I made. She > reaffirmed that we can trust Dumbledore on the 4 items he names. > Isn't interpretation a great thing!! To me, there seems so much ambiguity in JKR's statement, that it guarantees that we don't know the whole story wrt Horcruxes. I also don't think the Horcruxes will take a lot of time to deal with. The locket - At 12 Grimmauld Place The cup - I think this will be the real challenge The wand? - Either Neville has it or Voldemort has it. Nagini (or possibly Harry) - Find Voldemort & you find the snake Brothergib From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 10 09:27:37 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:27:37 -0400 Subject: No AKs - just the Ministry room of Love Was (Re: Harry using AK curse?? Yes. Message-ID: <003601c59d8d$bfaef130$19c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137130 Saraquel: >>Harry and the Horcruxes CathyD Good title for the seventh book! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 10 09:35:36 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:35:36 -0400 Subject: The Truth..Slughorn and Dumbledore: Death, act 1 Message-ID: <003a01c59d8e$dd45c060$19c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137131 vmonte again: So Harry is mezmorized with death (the arch) and Ginny with time (the jar). CathyD now: Ginny is pretty facinated with the arch too, though: "On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too. Without speaking, Hermione took hold of Ginny's arm, Ron grabbed Neville's, and they marched them firmly back to the lowest stone bench..." I found it interesting, there, that the three who had seen death (Luna, Neville and Harry) and one who had nearly died (Ginny) were the ones entranced by the veil. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Nanagose at aol.com Wed Aug 10 09:49:13 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:49:13 -0000 Subject: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137132 > Deb writes: > Christina, I agree that the Pensieve memory is accurate, but I > wonder if maybe our "up to now" interpretation of it is inaccurate > or incomplete anyway. I mean, Snape removed that memory to try to > keep it from Harry, but why that particular memory? Christina: Ooo, what an interesting question! The first time Harry has Occlumency lessons with Snape, it is specified that Snape removes three of his memories and puts them in the pensieve. We see the second lesson start in the middle (Chapter 26), and it is interrupted by Trelawney, so we don't know how many memories he put in the pensieve at that time. During the "Snape's Worst Memory" lesson, Harry sees Snape putting several thoughts into the pensieve but does not specify how many. I would guess that the three memories he wanted to hide in the first lesson would be the same memories he would want to hide throughout the lessons. If this is true, the memories must be very select (after all, think of all the things Snape must have experienced in his lifetime that he would want to keep hidden?). > Deb: > It reads to me like there have been many such scenes > between Snape and the Marauders over the previous 5 years. Christina: I agree. Snape and the Marauders clashed a lot. What makes this memory different? > Deb: > I wonder if what is "the worst" about this memory for Snape is > that here he lost control - he who considers lose of emotional > control equal to weakness. Here he used a potentially deadly curse > against a school mate(though he obviously was quite controlled in > the application of it). And here he said something as unforgivable > (vis a vis social relationships)as any Unforgivable Curse.... he > called Lily a "Mudblood". Christina: Good point. Snape is usually quite controlled, a skill necessary to his spy work, something I think he works hard to keep up and takes a certain measure of pride in (his reaction to Narcissa's tears is to look away as though they were "indecent"). I find the "Mudblood" thing really interesting. Adult Snape has said a LOT of very cruel things, but I can't recall a single instance of him using the word Mudblood (aside from the pensieve memory). As a matter of fact, I can't think of a time he ever addresses blood status in general (can anyone find an example?). I found Lily's reaction to Snape's "Mudblood" interesting as well: (OotP, US, page 648) "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" Lily blinked. "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in future." (end quote) At first I was inclined to think that Lily and Snape were friendly and that's why she was surprised at him lashing out at her. They couldn't be too close though, if you consider the fact that Lily's "furious expression had twistched for an instant as though she was going to smile," when Snape was first hoisted up. I think her defending Snape was supposed to demonstrate her sense of justice. I suppose you could say that Lily's reaction was more of a, "How can you insult me when I just stood up for you?" but I'm not sure that really explains it either. Sirius points out that Snape was known for being into the Dark Arts and even calls him an "oddball." Also, he *is* a Slytherin, and they are known for their blood prejudices. Why was Lily taken aback at Snape's use of the word "Mudblood?" It would be like having a Gryffindor be taken aback by Draco Malfoy using the word. It just doesn't sit quite right with me. In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that I think you're onto something when you suggest that this could make this memory particularly bad. Deb: > Maybe Snape was attracted to Lily, or > maybe "Florence" (if Snape was the one caught snogging her behind > the greenhouse) was in the audience.. Christina: Ah, Florence. I keep wishing that somebody will ask JKR about her, but alas, nothing. While I don't think that Lily and Snape were best buddies or anything, I do believe he had some measure of respect for her due to her exceptional Potions ability (and perhaps her seemingly intense dislike and disapproval of James?). I still believe that Snape would be most attracted to a woman's mind, which is how I get away with thinking he had a bit of a thing for Lily without it getting too "ick" for me :) I think the "Mudblood" was blurted out in the heat of the moment due to Snape's embarrassment. > Deb again: > And I think that is part > of his anger... now Snape's memory is in Harry's memory... what > would LV make of this memory being in Harry's mind? Has Snape lied > to LV about this... is this one of the memories he talks about that > would disprove a lie he has told to LV? Christina: You're actually getting at what my reasoning is for Snape's choice of memories to hide in the pensieve. The things that Harry sees when he accidentally breaks into Snape's mind are pretty humiliating (particularly the memory with the laughing girl), so why wouldn't Snape put those in the pensieve too? I don't think Snape was putting things in the pensieve to hide them from Harry- I think he was putting things in the pensieve to hide them from Voldemort. We know that Voldemort has access to Harry's mind. What is more dangerous for DoubleAgent!Snape- Harry seeing a memory Snape doesn't want him to, or Voldemort seeing a memory Snape doesn't want him to? I think you're onto something when you say that Snape is worried that Harry now knows the OWL memory, which means Voldemort probably does too (or sees snatches of it...it's hard to tell how much LV can get from Harry), which would account for some of his excessive rage at finding Harry in the memory. Of course, the next logical question is, in all of Snape's life, why is the OWL incident one of the mere *three* memories Snape *needs* to keep hidden? You suggested that it might contradict a lie he told LV, which I agree with- it's the most logical explanation (and it makes sense in the context of Snape hiding memories from Voldemort rather than Harry), but I wonder what that lie would have been and how the memory would have gone against it? Christina From samwisep at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 11:19:37 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:19:37 -0000 Subject: Draco's choice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137133 vmonte: Draco is a racist pureblood. To Draco it doesn't matter whether it is Lupin or Fenrir..a werewolf is a werewolf is a werewolf... Now me: I think the thing to remember here, is Draco was raised racist and his parents instilled these racist and pureblood ideas into his head. Now, Draco is only 16 and maybe he hasn't really challenged those beliefs. I was 30 before I really began to think about things I was taught growing up(ie:eating meat, being christian) and had to decide for myself if it was right for me. And I will go further to say, some people NEVER think about whether the ideas thier parents put forth were really valid or not.(if they were spanked, they spank...without thinking about whether or not there is a different way of doing things) JMHO Snapeo'phile From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 10 11:27:20 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:27:20 -0400 Subject: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) Message-ID: <001c01c59d9e$79601220$51c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137134 Pippin >>The smoking wand is the disappearance of Fenrir. Last we saw, he was stupefied. He didn't escape with Snape, and yet he seems to be still at large; at least, if he'd been captured, I can't imagine Rufus Scrimgeour not bringing it up as he tries to persuade Harry to help the Ministry. CathyD now: Scrimgeour is only pointing out to Harry that he (the Ministry) knows that someone was up on that Tower with DD and Stupified (Petrified) a Death Eater, and that he believes it was Harry. He had no need to tell Harry, at that moment, about Greyback being taken into custody (if he was) he was still just trying to get info, about Dumbledore, out of Harry. He was more interested in info at that moment than trying to get Harry onside with the Ministry. That came well after. Greyback was found Petrified down in the staircase, down where the battle took place. How can Scrimgeour even be sure Harry knows who Greyback is or if he even saw him in the battle? He can't. There's no point, right here, in telling Harry about Greyback. The more pressing point is trying to get info about Dumbledore, and then trying to get Harry onside...which by that point, even Scrimgeour knew was a losing battle. Who, exactly Petrified Greyback anyway? "He was on top of Harry before Harry could raise his wand:" It could have been Harry, he could have wriggled his wand out to use it against Greyback. It could also have been someone else...it's quite vague really...someone like Lupin who was already outed to Greyback. Can't imagine that Greyback didn't notice Lupin was fighting *against* the Death Eaters or that Lupin was in the castle but didn't come in with the DEs and himself. I can't see that Greyback is at large. Petrificus Totallus, like Stupefy, lasts until released. If they found the DE in the tower they found Greyback. Scrimgeour just didn't tell Harry about it because there was a more pressing need. I don't, for a moment, think Lupin set him free. And I don't, for a second, think Lupin has switched sides. Sherry >>Besides, i can't bear to think of how Harry would feel if it ended up being true! his father's last remaining friend, a traitor. CathyD again: Especially since Peter Pettigrew already did that game. I do believe there is/there will be a spy within the Order. That goes pretty much without saying. There was last time, there will be this time. I don't believe it will be Lupin. My opinion is for somebody more like a Ludo Bagman...someone who *thought* they were giving information to the right side when they were actually passing info to one of LV's spies at the Ministry. My best guess would be Tonks who still works at the Ministry with the Aurors. Who are Proudfoot and Savage, anyway? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 11:27:59 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:27:59 -0000 Subject: The Truth..Slughorn and Dumbledore: Death, act 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137135 > Auria, replying to Brandon: > I like your theories as they kind of agree with what I have been > thinking that Dumbledore is not really dead. I like your idea that > the 'poison' which Dumbledore drank from the cave actually helped him > fight off the AK curse - that maybe R.A.B actually switched the > original poison with a protective potion. > I have also been wondering the significance of Slughorn's ability to > metamorphasize into an armchair at the beginning of the book. This > may mean that Slughorn could have changed and posed as someone else - > perhaps Dumbledore's body? What do you think? >vivian: > Yes, I was thinking about the arm chair incident too. I wonder if > Slughorn is another metamorph? He is also a very theatrical kind of > man. Just look at how he put together his own "fake" death. I'm > thinking more on the lines that Slughorn approached Dumbledore and > proposed the idea that he should have back up plan in case...hint > hint nudge nudge. > > If anything was set-up it was between DD and Slug. > If DD's death is a fake it looks more like a Slughorn-type theatrical > extravaganza... hg: I've been thinking the same thing. The idea that Dumbledore's death was faked hasn't been warmly received on any board, so I've been "in the closet" on this one. But I've been collecting evidence and re- reading carefully; I've got a lot of indicators that it happened, but without being able to secure a motive, I've been reluctant to post. I don't think that the portrait means that Dumbledore is necessarily dead. I don't buy the AK. The funeral had too many bells and whistles. And I do think Slughorn himself appeared in the office afterward. If Dumbledore's death was faked, nobody died on that Tower, in my opinion. (Except DE Gibbon.) I have pages of ideas, quotes, inconsistencies. Vivian, you seem interested; anyone else? hg. From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 11:05:12 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:05:12 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137136 festuco (Gerry) wrote: >But I just cannot see them as a couple. What do they have in >common? What will they talk about? Whatever they've been talking about for the past five and half years that they've been friends. They've been repeatedly shown to hang out together (just the two of them) when Harry's been elsewhere. We can guess this time was not filled with awkward silences. I think a lot of the tension between them is meant to be romantic (or sexual, if you want to take it there) frustration. It won't be there once they actually establish a relationship. Sure, they'll still argue about stuff. Most couples do. >One clear example why I feel so uncomfortable about this ship is >the way Ron reacts when Hermione is having worries about her exam >results. Of course she has nothing to worrie about, yet she does. >Does he help her overcome this problem? Does he support her? No, >nothing, just the opposite. Hermione has always needlessly worried about her test results (it was even her bogart in PoA). In HBP she says "I know I failed everything," which is when Ron tells her to shut up. A litte snippy, but come on-- everyone, including Hermione, knows she didn't fail her tests. I liken this to a slim and fit but insecure girl complaining that she's fat. Hermione doesn't need sympathy and support here-- she needs to be told she's being silly. This is all in my opinion, of course! guz. From natti_shafer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 11:07:08 2005 From: natti_shafer at yahoo.com (Nathaniel) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:07:08 -0000 Subject: Why leave the book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137137 Jmoses22002 at y wrote: > Why would Snape leave the HBP book in his old potions class? I fall into the camp of those that believe that Snape did not do it intentionally. Snape had probably long since stopped using his old textbook. At first, when Snape was just starting out as the potions master, it was helpful to have his old textbook with his improvements to the potions. But after each passing year he found himself using it less and less. After having taught the same spells over and over again to students year after year he finally found himself not using the textbook at all. He had done the spells himself so often, and he had corrected students so often that he did not need to reference it anymore. A dozen or so years of teaching and Snape simply knew everything he had written in the margins. Then Dumbledore finally gives the word that he has convinced Slughorn to come out of retirement and take the job of potions master. Snape is told he will indeed need to clear his personal effects out of the potions classroom, but Snape forgets, for the moment about his old textbook which he has not really used or thought about for many years. He has much bigger things on his mind - like his recent "unbreakable vow" he has just made and how his roll as double agent just got considerably more difficult. He has his mind on re-familiarizing himself with D.A.D.A. curriculum. He simply does not recall that he has a valuable (at least to someone less knowledgeable about potions than he) textbook tucked away in some closet in his old classroom. But the events throughout the school year serve to remind Snape about his old textbook. First, there is Slughorn praising Harry's potions abilities at the Christmas party. Snape the legilimens then starts trying to probe Harry for the sudden improvement. He gets scattered images of Harry's emotions and something about an illicit textbook, but he gets interrupted by Draco's sneaking about the castle and is unable to probe further. Then several months later he sees Draco with the unmistakable signs that he has fallen victim to the old spell he invented. He probes Harry further as a legilimens. This time Harry is thinking "don't think about the Half-blood Prince" which is, of course, the final clue that Snape needs in order to make the connection - Harry has his old textbook. It seems to me that Snape hasn't made the connection until this moment. Otherwise, there would be no point in going through the charade of having him retrieve his schoolbag. If Snape had previous knowledge that Harry had somehow come into possesion of his textbook, then he would not need to have Harry go retrieve his books. The serious injury to Draco would be sufficient to land Harry into detention for as long as Snape wishes. Harry bringing back Ron's textbook was merely for Snape's own satisfaction; he wanted confirm his suspicions that Harry was in possesion of his old, long- forgotten, school book. -Nathaniel From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Wed Aug 10 12:29:26 2005 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:29:26 -0000 Subject: The ultimate Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137138 I think I know why LV wanted to go back and teach at Hogwarts. It is not to find some artifact that belonged to one of the 4 founders, it is to make a horcrux out of the only thing that actually belonged to the 4 of them..... Hogwarts itself. The school. And now that DD is away, he will be able to penetrate the school, and make a Horcrux of it. This is why Harry will come back to school in book 7. To fight LV and prevent him from making the last of hix 7 Horcruxes..... Just a thought..... From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 12:30:45 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:30:45 -0000 Subject: No AKs - just the Ministry room of Love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137139 First, many thanks to Cheryl, Valky, Jen and Cathy for having mercy on me and picking up the thread of Love, and giving me such interesting answers to mull over. >Cheryl wrote: > I really like this idea. It also works if you believe Harry's >scar is an unintentional horcrux and would be a way for Harry to >eliminate Voldemort, his horcruxes, and the part of Voldemort in >him without sacrificing himself to do so. Saraquel: Personally, I don't think Harry is a Horcrux, although obviously I agree that this is one way to eliminate the horcruxes. The reason I don't think he is one, is not just because DD doesn't think he is ? and let's face it, DD must have really thought hard about this. But because of the evidence of CoS. The Horcrux in the diary fed off Ginny in order to bring itself to life. The pieces of soul in the Horcruxes want to continue living and create a reality/body for themselves IMO. Was it Valky who suggested that each Horcrux would `demand' the death of whoever tried to destroy it? I loved (well I didn't love it exactly!) that idea and thought it so good, that if JKR hasn't put it in, she should have done. If Harry was a Horcrux, intentional or not, that piece of soul would have been really trying to suck the life out of him and bring itself to life. Although, we can see dark influences in Harry's nature ? the attempts at unforgivable curses for instance ? it doesn't seem to me that he has had to fight off the attempts of a Horcrux to bring itself to life. Although cannon points to an interesting relationship between a living being and the Horcrux stored in it, when DD refers to Nagini. Also, if Harry was a Horcrux, embodied Voldemort wouldn't need to access Harry's mind through legilimancy, the Horcrux would do it for him and Voldemort would know simply by being aware of that part of his soul. If Voldemort suspected that Harry was a Horcurx, which surely he must have thought about, he would have made efforts to re- connect with that part of himself and not IMO be so dismissive of Harry and so quick to AK him at the Ministry, knowing that he was AKing his own soul. Jen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137115 >Unlike Bella, >who taunts Harry in OOTP, and even attempts to teach him the *right* >way to cast an Unforgiveable (shades of Barty Crouch, Jr. as well), >Snape takes the hard line here: "No Unforgiveable curses from you, >Potter!" Saraquel: Yes, I also found that line very interesting, almost as though Snape knows that Harry can't afford to allow himself to be tempted by dark magic as it will weaken him. I really don't like Snape, I think he's a nasty piece of work, but I keep returning to theories that have him on the side of good. >Jen: I like Dumbledore's explanation at first, 'yes Harry, you *can* >love'(chap. 23, p. 509), which somehow appeals to me more than just >Love, and all the songs that go with that, lol. Harry's ability to >love, to feel love, even though he's been abandoned, lived through a >wretched situation at the Dursleys, seen all of his mentors die.... saraquel: Yes Jen, this is such a good point. It takes enormous strength to continue loving in this situation. This is a type of natural forgiveness, where the individual is not concerned to blame, and play the victim. By playing the victim and blaming someone, you keep a connection to your abuser, and tie yourself down instead of breaking free and living your own life. By saying `it's your fault that my life is like this' you deny yourself the choice to live your life as you want to. This reflects on the very important realisation that Harry has at the end of the Horcruxes chapter in HBP, when he realises that he is making a choice to face Voldemort, and he is not Voldemort's victim. By having this realisation, he has broken free from any power which Voldemort's actions had over him. He is now his own person, and fear of Voldemort is no longer going to influence his decisions. It goes back to Lupin's comment in PoA, when he tells Harry it is wise to realise that fear is the thing that is most frightening, when Harry tells him that he is more afraid of Dementors than Voldemort. IMO, the importance of the understanding that Harry comes to at the the end of the Horcruxes chapter is that he is willing to face his fears, rather than that he is willing to face Voldemort. This has somehow got to be the key to his power. >Jen wrote: I don't think Harry's a Horcrux, but I do think Voldemort >underestimated once again by taking Harry's blood. And not because >of Lily's protection factor, either. I think having Harry's blood >will cause an effect like the brother wands, or the posession, and >Voldemort won't be able to AK Harry. Once again the curse will >rebound because Voldemort has Harry's blood in his veins. His >*valuable* blood, according to Dumbledore, the blood of a remarkably >pure soul who can love. Another in the long line of ways Voldemort >chose his own enemy, and made him very powerful. Saraquel: Another corking comment, Jen! (if you're not familiar with the terminology ? corking means, absolutely spot on) I've been thinking quite hard about the blood angle too. I've been wondering about body, soul and blood, and what they all represent. (I have a thread running at the back of my mind about Voldemort's bodies ? foetal and otherwise ? but that's for another post.) It seems to me that blood is heart is emotions. There is also the Christian concept of transubstantiation in the mass/communion ? This is my blood, drink this in remembrance of me ? Although as I said in my previous post, I'm not affiliated to any religion, but after reading interviews with JKR I think there is probably a Christian theology underpinning the books, although not too overt. The one thing that Voldemort lacks is any sort of compassion or emotion. His taking blood from Harry has introduced love back into his system. This love will undermine his evil from the inside. Maybe Valky, that is why DD had a gleam in his eye. (Valky's post "And there's one other thing: Harry's Blood doesn't directly figure in this scenario, so I'd like to find something that establishes the meaning of the Gleam as well.") Whether this will result in the sort of effect that Jen suggests I don't know, but I completely agree that it is "Another in the long line of ways Voldemort chose his own enemy, and made him very powerful" If Love can destroy evil, which I think is probably the ultimate theme of the books, then having Harry's blood in him is bringing about Voldemort's destruction from the inside. >Jen: Your theory reminds me a little bit of Dorian Grey. It's been a >long time since I read it, but it seems like the moment he puts a >knife into the painting, all the 'sins' kept apart from his soul are >torturously visited upon his current self. Saraquel: I haven't read the book, but I'm familiar with the story and can see where you're coming from. >Jen wrote: You know, I like the idea the Horcruxes will be thrown >in >that room,or through the veil, to be destroyed. Sort of like >Harry slipping the bezoar to Slughorn? Yeah, it was the easy way >out but also clever, and Harry & Co. don't have much time left. Saraquel: In some ways it is the easy way out in terms of the diet we are normally fed which is blood, guts and violence win the day. But I think JKR is setting the book up to be different. She did not make Harry the conventional superhero. His courage is the courage to love against the odds. His lesson IMO, is that if he really wants to beat Voldemort, he has to stop thinking unforgivable curses and start thinking power of love. He has to stop seeing love as a nothing, a luxury for the easy times, and start to see it for what it really is, what DD knows it is. OotP p743 UK ed "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, `that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." As a side comment here, splitting up with Ginny is not IMO a good move on Harry's part. He is thinking of keeping her safe, but actually, in order to beat Voldemort, he needs to access the love in himself, he needs to feel, and Ginny helps him to do that. I would not be surprised if Ginny cottons onto this fact somewhere in book 7, and insists on being around him. >Jen wrote: I want to visit the locked room for another reason--to >find out Lily worked in the DOM, perhaps in that very room, where >she learned about the kind of love you're talking about. You >suggested it might be a Last Judgement Love and I'm hoping for a >form of Compassionate Love. >Valky wrote in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137121 >IMO this theory is really strong Saraquel, because I agree that we >should look outside the box of Lovey dovey Mushy sweet things about >Love when looking for this final Love that will defeat Voldemort. Saraquel: To me, Last Judgement Love (for want of a better phrase) is the highest form of compassion ? and I suppose this is where I differ from Christian thinking ? in that, I think it redeems through purification. It destroys evil in the soul, leaving it pure, and in knowledge of its true nature, rather than damming it to eternal torment. But I think to say any more about that is to take the discussion away from the books and possibly from what JKR is trying to say, so I`ll leave it at that. But Jen's comment about Lily, I find very interesting. I too, speculate that Lily worked in the DoMysteries. But, what's interesting about this room is that DD has said (see above quote) that it is kept locked at all times. So a variety of questions arise: 1) How can you study what is in there if it is always locked? 2) What is in there and how did it get to be in there in the first place if it is so `dangerous'? 3) What happens to you when you go in there? I have been pondering what is in the room, because I do think that the final defeat of Voldemort is going to happen inside that room. In my last post I suggested that the experience inside the room might be like looking in a Mirror of Truth. Maybe, that's what is in the room, a mirror, foreshadowed by the Mirror of Erised. And perhaps, Cathy, the title of book seven is Harry Potter and the Mirror of Truth! :-) As to what happens when you go in there, I think that's what I outlined in my last post. >Valky wrote: "So I like Last Judgement Love, a lot. Because it *is* >terrifying. And we have seen it, in Harry, several times these are >the places in HBP I think we've seen it." Followed by examples Saraquel: Valky, thanks for those examples, I really think they key into the theme and they really made me think again about the moments you described. >Valky wrote: However, I think if it is within the room in the MOM, >then perhaps Harry will be bringing it out to Voldemort. Saraquel: I'm interested to know why you think this. I'm doubtful that Harry actually has the power to be the embodiment of this type of love. I may be wrong here, that could be JKR's real punchline ? that whoever you are, however `ordinary', you can embody the real power of love. But it seems to me, that first you have to be without sin, so to speak, to destroy the sins of others. I think I need to respond to Valky's post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137113 LOVE Saves the Day, in a separate post. This one is already quite long enough. So, as you can see, I was really eager to discuss the topic. Pick and choose what interests you to respond to. Thanks again everyone, Saraquel From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 13:14:50 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:14:50 -0000 Subject: Repost from a post made a year and a half ago: The Chess Game Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137140 vmonte: The Chess Game: The chess game represents the second war against Voldemort. "I think," said Ron, "we're going to have to be chessmen." Page 281, SS, U.S. version Ron walks over to a black knight and asks if they have to join him to get across the board--the knight nods his head. Ron turns to Harry and Hermione: Page 282 "This needs thinking about ." He said. "I suppose we've got to take the place of three of the black pieces " "Harry and Hermione stayed quiet, watching Ron think. Finally he said, "Now, don't be offended or anything, but neither of you are good at chess?" Ron knows that he is the strategist (not Hermione or Harry). Harry has survived every book because he is quick on his feet and relies heavily on his natural talent and instincts. Hermione is very intelligent, but she is not a good strategist. (All you have to do is see how successful she is at liberating the house elves.) "We're not offended," said Harry quickly. "Just tell us what to do." "Well, Harry, you take the place of that bishop, and Hermione, you go next to him instead of that castle." "What about you?" "I'm going to be a knight," said Ron. Three chess pieces listen to Ron and walk off the board. Do these pieces represent characters from the first war? (Who were the knight, castle, and bishop then? We can probably guess.) Interesting that Hermione is a castle and that Ron is a knight. Isn't a knight's job to protect his castle? Also, Ron's position in Quidditch is that of Keeper. The Keeper tries to prevent the other team from making any goals?he's the protector. The knight in chess never moves in a direct manner but weaves back and forth between other pieces. The bishop's long-range ability (especially towards the end of a game when there are more open spaces) "enables it to make the extended penetrating attacks which are impossible for the Knight. This gives the Bishop an end-game advantage" (Robert, James). (Think of Harry's Seeker position in Quidditch. If Harry catches the snitch the game is over.) We know that Dumbledore is already setting up Harry to take on Voldemort in the final confrontation. Harry as bishop also makes sense since he often moves diagonally and is not bound like the castle (or rook), which only moves in straight lines (sounds like Hermione to me). "White always plays first in chess," said Ron, peering across the board. "Yes...look " A white pawn had moved forward two squares. (Wormtail?) "Harry?move diagonally four squares to the right." "Their first real shock came when their other knight was taken. The white queen smashed him to the floor and dragged him off the board, where he lay quite still, facedown." This knight represents Sirius Black who was killed by the queen, Bellatrix. Who is the Queen on the Order's side? Ginny? I believe that Ginny is being set-up for something. She is the only child that has had direct contact with Tom Riddle/Voldemort, and like Harry, has also shared thoughts with the evil guy. Another interesting point is that Ginny also played Harry's position in Quidditch and may eventually take over Harry's position against Voldemort at some crucial moment. Will she step in to save Harry like he saved her? Actually, she played two roles while playing Quidditch!!! Interestingly, the Queen chess piece is also very versatile. It combines the powers of both the Rook and the Bishop. It can move horizontally, vertically, or on the diagonal! In a sense, it's like the king, silently represented by Dumbledore, in that it can move in any direction. "Had to let that happen," said Ron, looking shaken. "Leaves you free to take that bishop, Hermione, go on." Who does Hermione take down? Malfoy? Page 283 The game continues with the white pieces showing no mercy every time a black piece is taken. Ron loses a lot of black chess pieces. "Twice, Ron only just noticed in time that Harry and Hermione were in danger. He himself darted around the board, taking almost as many white pieces as they had lost black ones." "We're nearly there," he muttered suddenly. "Let me think?let me think " The white queen turned her blank face toward him. "Yes " said Ron softly, "it's the only way I've got to be taken." "NO!" Harry and Hermione shouted. "That's chess!" snapped Ron. "You've got to make some sacrifices! I take one step forward and she'll take me?that leaves you to checkmate the king, Harry!" "But?" "Do you want to stop Snape or not?" "Ron?" "Look, if you don't hurry up, he'll already have the stone!" There was no alternative. "Ready?" Ron called, his face pale but determined. "Here I go?now, don't hang around once you've won." He stepped forward and the white queen pounced. She struck Ron hard across the head with her stone arm, and he crashed to the floor?Hermione screamed but stayed on her square?the white queen dragged Ron to one side. He looked as if he'd been knocked out. Shaking, Harry moved three spaces to the left. (Seven spaces mentioned altogether--for the 7 school years?) Notice that Ron looked as though knocked out, not still and facedown like Sirius. (*I'm inserting a new thought here: If Ron's role is symbolic it's quite possible that Ron represents the Godric Gryffindor line of defense. So, in this passage Ron represents Dumbledore. By the way I think the Weasley's and Dumbledore are the heirs of Gryffindor!) We may think that Dumbledore (*I previously had Ron here) has died but he has not. Hermione and Harry will have to continue in the present war without him. It's interesting to note that the castle and bishop are considered end game pieces. The next room (after they walk through the room with the unconscious troll) is Snape's potion puzzle. The potion test also gives clues to the rest of the books. There are seven bottles representing 7 years and if you read the bottle descriptions some could also be HP characters. Page 285 "Danger lies before you, while safety lies behind, Two of us will help you, whichever you would find, One among us seven will let you move ahead, (Harry drinks this to get to Voldemort.) Another will transport the drinker back instead, (Hermione drinks this to return to Ron.) Two among our number hold only nettle wine, Three of us are killers, waiting hidden in line. Choose, unless you wish to stay here forevermore, To help you in your choice, we give you these clues four: First however slyly the poison tries to hide You will always find some on nettle wine's left side; (The poison hides next to something benign.) Second, different are those who stand at either end, But if you would move onward, neither is your friend; Third, as you see clearly, all are different size, Neither dwarf nor giant holds death in their insides; (Dobby and Hagrid?) Fourth, the second left and the second on the right Are twins once you taste them, though different at first sight. "Brilliant," said Hermione. "This isn't magic?it's logic?a puzzle. A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck here forever." "But so will we, won't we?" "Of course not," said Hermione. "Everything we need is here on this paper. Seven bottles: three are poison; two are wine; one will get us safely through the black fire, and one will get us back through the purple." (This is probably a coincidence but there are also 7 people on a Quidditch team. Each team has three Chasers, a Keeper, two Beaters and a Seeker. Look at the seven potion bottles: Three are poison:3 chasers, two are wine: 2 beaters, one potion goes forward: Seeker, and one potion goes backward: Keeper?) I believe that Hermione will figure out something important in book six or seven. She may be starting to piece something together already. The potion test was set-up by Snape. Will she figure out something important about Snape? Remember how she figured out what Lupin was, but did not mention it to the boys until she believed they were in danger? During the potions test Hermione figures out that the smallest bottle will move the player forward, and a rounded bottle at the right end of the line will propel the person backward. (Hermione uses this to go back to Ron in SS/PS.. I leave you all to consider what this might mean if Ron is a symbolic representation of Dumbledore.) I think the Weasley family is a very important family. Here are my thoughts about who will become the new Order Leader: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136927 Interesting read on the potions test at the Lexicon: Prefect Marcus. The Riddle of the Potions http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/es...tionriddle.html and... Robert, James, Dr. The Metaphysics of Chess http://www.zianet.com/postpubco/metachess.htm From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 10 00:44:18 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:44:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137141 uilnslcoap: > Utterly preposterous. This theory has no merit whatever. Why wasn't > ... Marianne S: > To further these points made by uilnslcoap, think about this... Pat, responding to both uilnslcoap and Marianne S: I'm trying to show the elves that I've learned the rules, and will not post again what I have already posted. All the things you both questioned have already been addressed in three other threads: SHIP: Pirate Ginny SHIP: H/G Indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny SHIP: Emma, twists, and HBP If you want to read those, I'd be happy to discuss new territory after that. Pat From carodave92 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 09:01:06 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:01:06 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape save Harry for the Dark Lord? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137142 I apologize - I lent out my books and can't provide quotes. In HBP, during his flight from Hogwarts, Snape tells the DEs to leave Harry for the Dark Lord. But in GoF, Fake!Moody tells Harry in his office that when he (Fake!Moody) kills Harry, he will be rewarded beyond all others by the Dark Lord for completing the task that the Dark Lord so wanted to do (but failed). Does LV suddenly want to be the one to AK Harry, even if it means that Harry lives a bit longer? This seems to back up the theory that Snape is actually on the side of good, if not, why wouldn't he AK Harry and be rewarded by LV? Carodave From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 13:57:55 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:57:55 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyljd" wrote: > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > ladyljd responds: > > I guess I saw it as sympathetic because he was a magical child left > alone in a muggle world. Left to his own devices he had no checks > and balances on his negative impluses. And it was clear his magical > abilities frightend the adults around him and allowed him to act on > his dark instincts without consequence. He had lots of justifiable > reasons for being a jerk. And no opportunity to be confronted with > his sociopathic tendancies until it was too late (Dumbledore's > arrival). KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yes, but he was also given an opportinity by Dumbledore--and also thinking on what you just said, and the comment that Dumbledore made about His Mistakes being HUGE. A lot of people are saying this comment refers to Snape.....what if it refers to Tom---well I guess it could be both. I don't know, I've never seen Dumbledore as a bad just of character, he says he didn't know what Tom would be, but at their very first meeting he didn't trust Tom. > ladyljd responds: > > I take her comment as culpable for his overall behavior: meaness to > children, especially Harry; love of the dark arts; joining the death > eaters; revealing the prophesy and its consequences; murdering > Dumbledore; etc ... In all of these things JKR sees Snape as > culpable and possibly past redmption. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I don't know, I suppose, Does he really love the dark arts, meh, why would he want to teach Defense of it--I'm reminded to teach something you must understand it....does that make someone evil--I don't know. > >> ladyljd wrote: > If I'm right about the direction JKR will take this story, no > further Snape back-story is really needed. HBP was about revealing > Snape as evil. Whatever his motivations, Harry can take his actions > at face value with no futher need to investigate. He just needs to > know enough to stop ESE!Snape in the next installment. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well, I will hope that Harry gets a Yoda before he faces Snape again, cause he wasn't looking to good trying to chase Snape down or even stop Snape....but anyway. I guess this was Snape's big book and we just have to live with it. I suppose we should just get used to being disappointed then, because if that was it....then...meh--seems kinda boaring to me. You know, the guy in all black, thats greasy, thats a little snarky, that gives kids a hard time..oh yea, he's the bad guy. Its sorta like...you know, the cowboy in the black hat...OH yea HE's the bad guy no question about it. > > > > ladyljd responds: > > All of this is only wild speculation on my part based on what JKR > writes in her novels and says in interviews. I certainly agree with > you about Snape's importance to the story - or at least how > important he is to my enjoyment of the story. I just believe JKR > believes his story has been told in HBP. And I speculate that > anything further distracts from the real story she's trying to > tell. Her development of Snape has reached an end. There is > precedent for this thinking in story arcs droped from OOTP to HBP. > Her use of The Order, the DA and characters like Moody come to > mind. They went from apparently important to back-burner. I can > easily see Snape do the same between HBP in Book 7. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yea, but, Moody was never actually really importaint now was he, he was...um...not the real Moody--so, the real Moody was never actually really relevent to begin with...actually. I can see what you mean by Snape's importance to the story is possibly over--but--it seems more people that not are left with more questions than not, so, if JKR is setting us up for Disappointment....meh...I think I'm going to wait for spoilers till I buy book #7....but anyway. > > ladyljd responds: > > Again, I agree with you but I believe JKR has something else in mind > for Harry. Throughtout the books his judgement as been questioned > where Snape is concerned. If he is to lead the troops in book 7, he > has to have some sort of authority. Since his magical abilites > appear to be ordinary, perhaps it is his instincts at judging people > that will be extraordinary. That's why I believe JKR needs him to > be right about Snape. This is just more of my wild speculation. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well, isn't really saying Harry isn't right about Snape--but the question is--none of us except JKR know the real facts where Snape is concerned...so yea, we are all wild speculators--and I think that is what JKR wants, she says she loves the theories......so why are way way way more of them about Snape? She obviously must know that if her claim at loving to read theories are true. Harry like us do not have all the information on Snape--and if The reason Dumbledore gives in HBP is the reason for him trusting Snape...come on....its lame and that makes DD really stupid, if that were true and he took that as the reason, he could have easily been fooled by Voldemort when he came back looking for the DADA job. I have to believe that their was more to the reason that DD trusted Snape, so that leads me to believe we are going to get a reason, be it good or bad...or at least a better one. So, saying that Snape is truly evil--why does JKR give Harry two evil enemies to fight--ok--maybe that seems lame, but, usually if she is following the classic hero story like she says she is--then-- hero's generally only have one major bad guy at the end....so, why does Snape all of a sudden seem way more powerful than Voldemort???? Why is he all of a sudden SuperSNAPE at the end of HBP, why did I go crap...Harry...sheash..get a Yoda or something at the end of the book. Also, I was thinking.....Snape basicly went against orders in a way by taking the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa....at least we all assume he did since Narcissa isn't supposed to tell anyone---Isn't Voldemort going to be a little upset with Snape.....Even more so-- Isn't Voldemort going to be like...since when did you get so SUPER Snape and you AK the only wizard I ever feared....WTH? Bla...this is whole nuther posting thread I'd like to make but anyway. Well, Snape did do something noble he did try to help his friends the Malfoy's and I guess thats saying something isn't it...but...meh..anyway. Karen From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 14:01:13 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:01:13 -0000 Subject: Could Harry BE a horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137144 kfolta12 wrote: This has be bugging me for a few days. The wording of the prophecy "neither can live while the other survives" and also the "and the dark lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the dark lord knows not" seem to me, to suggest such a thing. Marianne S: "Neither can live while the other survives" suggests to me that Voldemort can only survive if Harry dies. However, if Harry were one of Voldemort's horcruxes, wouldn't Voldemort want to keep Harry alive and not lose that part of his soul? We have also read that Voldemort keeps his horcruxes either close by (if Nagini is a Horcrux as Dumbledore predicts) or heavily guarded by curses and poisons. Harry's cursed scar doesn't seem to guard him, and I believe that Dumbledore (and JKR) have made it pretty clear that the power Harry possesses is LOVE. I know that JKR loves twists and turns, but she also values logic, and I believe that Harry being a horcrux defies such reasoning. JMO, Marianne S. From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 14:16:37 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:16:37 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "guzuguzu" wrote: >> > > Hermione has always needlessly worried about her test results (it > was even her bogart in PoA). In HBP she says "I know I failed > everything," which is when Ron tells her to shut up. A litte snippy, > but come on-- everyone, including Hermione, knows she didn't fail > her tests. I liken this to a slim and fit but insecure girl > complaining that she's fat. Hermione doesn't need sympathy and > support here-- she needs to be told she's being silly. > > This is all in my opinion, of course! > > guz. Sue: Very true, nice way to put it. And, when you think about it, it has always been Ron who has been doing that when necessary - not to mention reminding her when she needed to use her skills, as in that scene in PS, when she remembers Devil's Snare can be burned, but doesn't have any materials - "Are you a witch or not?" he bellows. Her relationship with Harry, however, has always been the other way - she is the one who tells Harry, like a good friend, when HE is being silly. She gives him some good advice, too, though usually he ignores it. Speaking of ships, there are student discussions in the school where I work. One of our boys (16 years old) describes Hermione as "hot" and can't understand how Harry could possibly be interested in Ginny! Wonder if his attitude is common in teenage boys? :-) From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 14:19:07 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:19:07 -0000 Subject: LOVE Saves the Day in the end WAS Re Dumbledore's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137146 Saraquel wrote: please, please post something on how *Love saves the day* for Harry. I've tried twice to get this discussion going and no-one has posted a reply. For my last attempt see message 136797 No AKs ? just the ministry room of love. I think this is such an important thing to discuss. I've seen stuff on how Harry needs to toughen- up/learn occlumency/learn legilimency/learn avada kedavra ? but I haven't read (admittedly, it might have been posted but missed by me, if so please point me to it.) anything on how we are interpreting DD's insistence that *Love is all you need.* I really think that this is the way JKR is going to resolve the plot, and I for one would really like to discuss it. Anyone else think like me please? Marianne S.: Yes, I think like you!! I know I'm an idealist, but I'm proud of that fact! Consequently, I really think JKR wants us to be a bit idealistic when seeing Hope for Harry and Love. We know from her interviews that she wants us to see that Ginny is the girl for Harry (which I am glad to say I DO see) and she wants us to see that love came overcome and overpower evil, like we know from Harry's parents' sacrifice (particularly Lily's) and we know from the scene with Bill/Fleur and Remus/Nymphadora, just to name one. We also see how Ron and Hermione can get past their rather childish behaviors such as attacking canaries and Lavender snogging when it's really important (and hopefully, after the way we saw HBP end, those "how can I make the other person jealous without actually taking the risk of revealing my feelings" behaviors will be in the past). And, just as his mother's love was a great protector of Harry, hopefully he will see that his love for Sirius, his two best friends, Ginny, Dumbledore, etc. is a strength and what is necessary to defeat Voldemort, not learning how to do unforgiveable curses. So.... these are my thoughts about how Love Can Save the Day. (of course, none of this is canon, or even close, but it is what I would like to see happen). a) The love of Ron, Hermione, and Ginny gets him through facing the difficult truth of what happened in Godric's Hollow. (I am not sure who to credit it to, but I loved the reminder that Harry may not have to remember what happened consciously, but the memory can be stored in his brain like preserved film from a hidden camera that he can retrieve and observe, like an outsider, in a pensieve. I also agree that's not a trip he should take alone.) b) Petunia will admit to loving her sister, Lily. Realizing this is the last time she will ever see Harry and that her love for Lily, buried deep all those years, is needed now... she gives Harry some Very Important Information about things she knew. c) Dumbledore's love for Harry will be shown by Dumbledore willing Fawkes to Harry. Fawkes will be on hand with more power to heal than ever because he's carrying in his tears the hope and faith Dumbledore has in Harry. Dumbledore will also leave Harry his pensieve, complete with bottled memories he left before the trip to the cave that explain exactly what the agreement between he and Snape was. d) Love will work by Snape choosing not to turn Draco over to Voldemort because he knows that, even with Dumbledore dead, Voldemort will still punish Draco and his mother because Draco was unable to kill Dumbledore himself. So, Snape, feeling a fatherly kind of love or maybe just pity for the first time ever, will do everything he can to protect Narcissa and Draco, especially if other death eaters have killed Lucious in Azkaban. Snape will also reveal to Narcissa that he is a HALF blood not a pure blood, and she will realize the error in the way she has raised her son and how she was believed to think that the only respectable wizards can be pure blood. (In a utopian post Voldemort wizarding world, Narcissa's views will completely turn around, much like how Arianna Huffington's political thinking reformed. Narcissa will become an activist for non-pure blood rights, includinghalf bloods, muggle borns, werewolves...) e) Harry will find out that Snape and his mother were friends and maybe even that Snape loved Lily, and that it was Snape's love for Lily that caused him to TRULY be remorseful. Snape will somehow admit that he always projected his hate for James onto Harry because it kept him from seeing how much Lily is also in Harry. Nevertheless, somehow Harry will realize that yelling "no unforgiveable curses for you, Potter" and other things Snape said truly were instructions to Help him. The two will come to an understanding that, based on how Harry learned so well from Snape's old textbook, that Harry could have learned if Snape had bothered to actually teach him anything instead of singling him out and treating him with such contempt. I do think, though, that if we get a Redeemed Snape, a Snape who remembers that Harry's mother was someone that he cared deeply about, will in turn use that love that he had for Lily to do her the ultimate favor -- sacrifice himself in order to save Harry. f) An avada kedavra or any other unforgiveable curse will not work on Voldemort and his death eaters because they're not effective when for righteous reasons. However, with all the horcruxes gone, someone (perhaps we'll really see the extent of Ginny's power here, or it could be something cleverly devised by Hermione or even Snape) will develop some way of having wands join together to create some sort of Ultra Patronus. This would be something that uses thecombined love of everybody present and everyone who has ever loved Harry, and will be the thing that defeats Voldemort. And that's where I'll end this before everyone thinks I'm battier than Trelawny. I look forward to Saraquel's and others comments/ prognostications about Love. Marianne S. From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 10 14:47:23 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:47:23 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape save Harry for the Dark Lord? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carodave92" wrote: > This seems to back up the theory that Snape is actually on the side of > good, if not, why wouldn't he AK Harry and be rewarded by LV? > > Carodave I agree. If LV wanted Harry for himself, why wouldn't have Snape just stunned him, captured him, and brought him back to LV. It seems he had ample opportunity to do either this, or AK him (up until the time that Buckbeak came), but actually stopped the other DE from using crucio on him. Also, do the effects of a spell really stop when the wizard casting them dies in the HP books? Have we seen other instances of this ? If so, it would suggest the fidelus charm is no longer on 12 Grimmauld Place, as the secret keeper is dead. If not, it would mean Snape somehow undid the full body bind on Harry so he was not left stuck in the tower. I would not have been too hard for Snape to put two and two together and figure out Harry was there -- two brooms, he knows about the invisibility cloak (though how would he know where he was, exactly?) Cheryl From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 10 14:51:49 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:51:49 -0000 Subject: Delayed Test Results In-Reply-To: <818d77fa92fb5d6334d160e2ca211db2@jdbailey.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jason in Alaska wrote: > Does it bug anyone else that Fred, George and Percy all get the results > of their OWLs and NEWTs while still at school, while the trio have to > wait until a few weeks before classes to get their results? I'm pretty > sure at the end of PoA we find that Percy got several NEWTs and that > George & Fred got a few OWLs....this was days after they sat the tests. > I just find it to be inconsistent...guess I'm nit-picking.... > > Jason Actually, I remember only hearing about Fred and George's OWL results during the summer (in GoF) when Ron tells Harry that Molly wasn't impressed with the number of OWLs they got. Rachael From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 15:00:30 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:00:30 -0000 Subject: LOVE Saves the Day in the end WAS Re Dumbledore's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137149 Valky wrote in >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137113 >Hope this will give Saraquel something to chew over about Love in >the Final battle. Saraquel: Well Valky, mischief managed. This scenario is so different from anything that I have ever thought about ? but then you're pretty good at doing that! >Valky wrote >Hermione and Ron will discover that *they* can go in, >*together* because the Love between them is the key to the door. >Outlandish, I know, and to what end, I don't really know. Saraquel: Interesting thought, but I think it would be more likely to be Harry and Ginny (see my comment in my previous post about Harry splitting with Ginny) Although, if the room is full of Last Judgement Love, I don't know that this would further the plot, and I do think that if Harry goes into the room, it will only be once, at the end with Voldemort. But yes, what is the key to the door? I really like the idea that it opens because of something in you, rather than having a physical key of some sort. Maybe it's about the courage to want to see the Truth. Like the Room of Requirement, the door opens on the basis of need. (In my previous post, 137139, I speculated that the Room of Love contained The Mirror of Truth) Valky wrote: >I have often wondered if Voldemort was trying to secure himself a >living *equal* for a Horcrux as the final step in his plans for >immortality. Saraquel: I remember your Lily-was-an-intended-Horcrux post, which really caught my attention. Although I can't really work out why Voldemort would choose Lily (she was the child of muggles after all) it was an interesting way of looking at the possibilities for the choice Lily was offered, and I have tucked it in the back of my mind. Valky wrote: >BOth Harry and Voldie possess Voldies >powers, which I would say include his extraordinary abilities of >Legilimency and possession. Saraquel: It had occurred to me about the Legilimancy, but not about the ability to possess, being one of the powers Harry has inherited. Valky wrote: under the title First confrontation between Harry & Voldemort >Like in the end of OOtP Voldie tries his most powerful weapon on >Harry, the one that shook DD to his boots, he takes possession of >someone that Harry loves. Ginny. With Ginny's voice he tells Harry to >kill him now, and he attacks Harry with Ginny's body. >Then Harry does something so instinctive that he doesn't even know >he's achieved it until its done, He enters Nagini. Now if Voldemort is >to kill Harry, he must kill Nagini (A Horcrux! The only thing that he >loves, Himself!). >This leaves the battle in a kind of Stalemate, I know. But some major >possibilities are opened that echo the Man with Two Faces Chapter of >PS/SS, like the way Harry embraces Quirrel while the touch of Love in >Harry's skin burns the Quirrel!Mort. This could again happen, this >time with Harrys love for Ginny being the thing that burns Voldie, >possibly driving him to destroy his own Horcrux Nagini in the process >and forcing him out of Ginny finally alone and mortal. Saraquel: Wow, that sort of took my breath away. There are things I like a lot about it and other things I'm not so sure of. I'm not keen on the Ginny bit. I suppose it's just that this has happened to Ginny before, being possessed by Voldemort. But then, this is Harry's worst fear from the funeral materialising, which would be a huge test for him. On the other hand I find the whole idea of Harry being able to possess Nagini, really intriguing and that Harry's love is the thing that kills Nagini. I think I may have read the post you refer to about the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort, but I'm afraid I can't remember the details. But taking the concept of possession into Voldemort and Harry's final meeting may well fit in with the Prophecy. There is a sort of intertwinedness (nice word ? don't know that it exists though) in the `neither can live if the other survives' part of the prophecy. I wonder if we could make it work with a possession theory. Saraquel From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 10 16:01:46 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:01:46 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137150 Lupinlore: > Perhaps that wisdom is different than intelligence? That in the end > we have to make up our own minds, and not let others tell us how to > think and whom to trust -- even if the person telling us is as kind > as Lupin or as intelligent as Dumbledore? That in the end we only > have our own experiences and judgment upon which to fall back, when > all else fails us? Very valuable lessons all, and if Harry has > learned them they will serve him extremely well. Pippin: Harry's always relied on his own judgement. What he has to learn is what to base that judgement on. In every single one of the books, his misjudgements, based on prejudice and hearsay, have led him into a tight spot and some grownup has had to bail him out or at least, as in PoA or HBP, keep him from making a terrible mistake. But I think you are right, and the principle adults in the story have already made the choices that show what they are, with the exception of Pettigrew, who obviously has something important to do. It is for Harry to discern that and judge them, and he will get it wrong, again and again and again, until he learns to *open* his mind and make decisions based on the pertinent evidence. He has plenty of evidence that Snape is a bully and a sadist, and was a racist at one time. What he saw in HBP is that whether someone is any of those things should not be judged pertinent to the question of whether that someone is a killer. I think the structure of Book Seven will resemble GoF -- a joyous Weasley occasion marred by Death Eater activity, followed by four extracurricular tasks corresponding to the four elements, then the finale (with false and genuine climaxes), and the epilogue. That leaves plenty of room for the activities of the order or ex-order members we know are in contact with Voldemort's camp: Snape, Lupin and Pettigrew. I don't think any of them has a vested interest in Voldemort's immortality, so any of them might sneak Harry some information on winning horcruxes, just as Voldie loyalist Barty Jr helped Harry get through the tasks. But in the end, the trick, as Harry said, will be finding Voldie. Only the Dumbledore loyalist(s) will want Voldemort dead. That's where Harry's going to have to decide who's really Dumbledore's man and who isn't. He will need help getting to that point though, I think-- it's one of his strengths, and Voldemort's weaknesses, that Harry can work with others. He needs to remember that he has friends. In fact, if Harry had included Dobby in his plans , the whole fiasco at the end of HBP might have been avoided. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 10 16:07:52 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:07:52 -0000 Subject: LOVE saves the day in the end + Dumbledore's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137151 Marianne S: > > I think the pensieve could be quite helpful! > > 4) What EXACTLY happened at Godric's Hollow on that fatefull > > day... from Snape's perspective if he was present. Saraquel: > Harry doesn't actually have to go to anyone else to find out what > happened at GH. He was there, he will have a memory of it. As JKR > has pointed out (See the Mugglenet/LC interview) the magic of the > pensieve is that it re-creates the *complete* scene for you, so it > doen't matter that Harry was just a baby and didn't understand what > was happening. SSSusan: I am DESPERATE to see such a scene, Saraquel. Before JKR stated what she stated**, I know we had arguments here that: 1) Harry wouldn't have seen anything because he was lying in his cot/crib; and 2) any memory he did have would be quite incomplete or just sensory information because he was so young. Herself's comments about pensieve memories being complete/objective** I hope means that you're right: that if there is no DD or Snape memory to look at, Harry will still be able to extract his own and see it. [**For those who may not have read, here are snippets of JKR's comments from the Melissa/Emerson interview: "It's reality. ...So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. ...Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time."] If we end this series without an explanation of how events unfolded that night at GH, preferably with an actual "visual," it will probably be my biggest disappointment of the series (unless Harry bites it in the end, as that would be even bigger. Speaking of the series' end... Saraquel said: > ... plead and grovel for someone to please, please post something > on how *Love saves the day* for Harry. I've seen stuff on > how Harry needs to toughen-up/learn occlumency/learn > legilimency/learn avada kedavra ? but I haven't read anything on > how we are interpreting DD's insistence that *Love is all you > need.* I really think that this is the way JKR is going to resolve > the plot, and I for one would really like to discuss it. SSSusan: Well, I know many will find what I'm going to say to be Simplistic and Sappy and all that kind of Stuff, but so be it. (Hmmmm, all those "S" words must go with my "SSSusan.") Anyhoo... I do think love will be the key, but I don't think it's *necessarily* anything Harry has to study or bone up on or "develop" as he would Occlumency or the other things you've mentioned, Saraquel. What Harry does have, imo, is the capacity for love -- perhaps not at this time greater than many others' capacity -- but it is quite PRESENT in him, I'd argue. In addition, he has the "saving people thing" -- the tendency to rush off, without thinking of his own safety or potential harm (and sometimes not about the potential harm for others either), to take care of/rescue others. It's the combination of these things -- love/compassion/concern for others + the willingness to sacrifice which will be the (somehow!) fatal combination for Voldy. Here's how I have always seen it playing out. In the end, Harry will come, probably solo, to the understanding that he must sacrifice himself. He will be willing to do so because of his love for (many) others -- **not** because of romantic love for Ginny, but because of deep, compassionate, altruistic agape love & concern for others. But here's the TWIST I'm hoping for. Harry will come to believe this, and he will come to DECIDE that he will sacrifice himself, thus ensuring (somehow! -- leaving this up to JKR's magical creativity) Voldemort's demise. However, in the process of offering himself up, Harry will (somehow!) discover, quite surprisingly, that he does not NEED to die. The belief & the willingness to have died will turn out to have been enough. Yeah, yeah, I know. Some of you are gagging at your computer screens right now. But Saraquel asked... and this is my response. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 10 16:36:20 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:36:20 -0000 Subject: DoubleAgent!Lupin was Re: Lupin as metaphor (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: <001c01c59d9e$79601220$51c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137152 > Pippin > >>The smoking wand is the disappearance of Fenrir. Last we > saw, he was stupefied. He didn't escape with Snape, and yet he > seems to be still at large; at least, if he'd been captured, I can't > imagine Rufus Scrimgeour not bringing it up as he tries to > persuade Harry to help the Ministry. > > CathyD now: > Scrimgeour is only pointing out to Harry that he (the Ministry) knows that someone was up on that Tower with DD and Stupified (Petrified) a Death Eater, and that he believes it was Harry. He had no need to tell Harry, at that moment, about Greyback being taken into custody (if he was) he was still just trying to get info, about Dumbledore,out of Harry. He was more interested in info at that moment than trying to get Harry onside with the Ministry. That came well after. Pippin: But Harry makes it quite clear that he's not interested in talking to Scrimgeour while Stan Shunpike is in jail. If R.S. had a prominent DE capture to brag about, why care about Shunpike? Fenrir is notorious, he's threatened countless people, according to Lupin. And the stupefied Death Eater, who was nailed by Harry as he left the tower, is not Fenrir, who was petrified at the base of it. Wouldn't somone in the hospital wing have said, Hey, at least we got Fenrir? I think that Fenrir was probably petrified by the same person who rescued him -- otherwise the person who did it would have wondered what happened to him. Snape gave a rationale for why he either had to stay out of battles or appear to be fighting on Dumbledore's side which would hold just as true for Doubleagent!Lupin. And Fenrir was attacking Harry at the time, which the DE's were forbidden to do. > Sherry > >>Besides, i can't bear to think > of how Harry would feel if it ended up being true! his father's last > remaining friend, a traitor. > > CathyD again: > Especially since Peter Pettigrew already did that game. Pippin: Ah, but what if Peter wasn't a willing spy at all, but only the reluctant betrayer of the secret? Dumbledore doesn't seem to be very upset about Peter's escape; he says Harry will be glad of it one day. I think Dumbledore knew all along that Peter wasn't the spy. It makes even less sense now that a non-Occlumens could get away with spying on Dumbledore for a year. Kathy: My best guess would be Tonks who still works at the Ministry with the Aurors. Pippin: Yes, I'm afraid she's being placed under Imperius and made to do the real spy's bidding. What was she doing outside the RoR, when DD's office is on the other side of the castle? Pippin From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 16:59:18 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:59:18 -0000 Subject: No AKs - just the Ministry room of Love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > So a variety of questions arise: > 1) How can you study what is in there if it is always locked? > 2) What is in there and how did it get to be in there in the first > place if it is so `dangerous'? > 3) What happens to you when you go in there? Saraquel, your questions reminded me of Dumbledore's comments about the Mirror of Erised: "It shows us nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate desire of our hearts. ...Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it shows is real or even possible." Perhaps the reason the Room of Love is dangerous is that, once you've entered it, you never want to leave it. If that's true, anybody who does enter it would need a protective shield of some sort. Of course, this would be especially true for Lord Voldemort. If Harry somehow manages to open the door and get LV to enter the room, LV would suddenly be confronted with a huge amount of the power he knows not. Just something to think about. Merrylinks From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 10 17:24:52 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:24:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FA3864.5030906@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137154 > > Deb again: > > And I think that is part > > of his anger... now Snape's memory is in Harry's memory... what > > would LV make of this memory being in Harry's mind? Has Snape lied > > to LV about this... is this one of the memories he talks about that > > would disprove a lie he has told to LV? Deb Kathy writes: I don't really see anything in this memory that Voldemort could not approve of. Snape calling someone a name like that is only going to win Voldemort's approval. Hating the people that are tormenting him would provide an excellent reason for joining the Death Eaters. Seeing and feeling the hatred Snape has for the Marauders would actually help to convince Voldemort that Snape would fight against them at every opportunity. I think that Snape is particularly ashamed of the memory of calling Lily a "Mudblood" and has chosen to hide it from Harry. I think the relationship with Lily is the most crucial part of this memory. KJ > > Christina: > You're actually getting at what my reasoning is for Snape's choice of > memories to hide in the pensieve. The things that Harry sees when he > accidentally breaks into Snape's mind are pretty humiliating > (particularly the memory with the laughing girl), so why wouldn't > Snape put those in the pensieve too? I don't think Snape was putting > things in the pensieve to hide them from Harry- I think he was putting > things in the pensieve to hide them from Voldemort. > Christina Kathy writes: The Occlumency lessons are some of the most intiguing parts of the book. We see a lot about Snape in these parts that are completely different from what we normally see of him. We see him answering questions, we see him uncomfortable with Harry for the first time, we see him not objecting to being hexed by Harry (hard to believe, that one), and wonder of wonders, we see him give Harry faint praise for succeeding. Snape obviously expects to see Harry make some kind of penetration of his mind eventually and has only removed those memories that are dangerous or very uncomfortable. He doesn't object to Harry seeing unfortunate memories from his childhood and youth, and he responds the same way any adult would when a young person is seeing more than they should. I think that JKR is suggesting that the attack by the Marauders is not what we should be looking at. Snape was showing nervousness and fear when he accessed Harry's memories of the Ministry door, and Voldemort talking to a Death Eater because the connection might have been active. In combination with this concern, he did not know which memory, Harry was viewing when he returned to his office. He must have been in a panic, which was displyed as fury, but not so much that he did not immediately draw Harry's attention (and ours) to the behaviour of the Marauders and away from Lily. At no time was there mention of Lily. Later, Harry focussed on the behaviour of his father and Lily's relationship with his father. It never crossed his mind to ask Sirius and Lupin why Lily defended Snape. I would like to guess that Snape was only removing memories that he did not want Harry to see, and I think they were this one, because of Lily, the memory of telling Voldemort the prophesy, and the memory of Godric's Hollow when Lily was killed. I think that these are memories that would have to be kept in his head. The memory of the prophesy, and the memory of Godric's Hollow are memories that Voldemort would expect to see. The memory of Lily could explain why Voldemort apparently agreed to spare Lily's life. Snape might have used it to convince Voldemort that he owed her a debt. I believe that the memories which Voldemort can never be allowed to see, Snape regreting his actions, possibly trying to save Lily at GH (voice Harry heard), and confessing to Dumbledore have been removed and are in Dumbledore's safe-keeping. IMHO KJ From rt11guru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 17:35:43 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: <001901c59d6d$8698e3d0$6521f204@pensive> Message-ID: <20050810173544.48951.qmail@web52914.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137155 Sherry Gomes wrote: I don't blame the enmity between Snape and Harry on Harry from the start. In the very first potions class, Harry didn't know Snape from any other teacher and had no reason to feel hatred. Snape immediately began to pick on him and showed his nasty immature nature. Guru opines: I've been thinking about another interpretation of Snape's actions from the start. Suppose Snape realizes that LV has to be stopped and the Harry is the only one who can do it. He also realizes that having been brought up by Muggles, Harry is starting out behind. Add to that the fact that a number of the faculty give Harry special treatment and Old Sev decides he has to become Drill Instructor Snape (DI!Snape to you). Think R. Lee Ermey or Louis Gossett Jr. in black robes and a taller hat. He's going to whip the kid into shape no matter what what and doesn't care if Harry hates him in the process. Just a thought. Guru ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From racket at club-internet.fr Wed Aug 10 16:04:22 2005 From: racket at club-internet.fr (racket at club-internet.fr) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:04:22 +0200 Subject: The ultimate Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137156 Oiramertip: >I think I know why LV wanted to go back and teach at Hogwarts. It is >not to find some artifact that belonged to one of the 4 founders, it is >to make a horcrux out of the only thing that actually belonged to the 4 >of them..... Hogwarts itself. The school. Julie: I don't see how he could make a horcrux of Hogwarts as it isn't an object. What's your idea of the horcrux? >And now that DD is away, he will be able to penetrate the school, and >make a Horcrux of it. This is why Harry will come back to school in >book 7. Julie: I agree with you there. Maybe he'll try to hide a horcruxes in hogwarts there's the room of requirement of the chamber of secret... But he won't be easy for him to enter Hogwarts even without Dumbledore if Hogwarts reopen the ministry will put extra security and the order of the phoenix will be on the lookout too. Julie. From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 16:00:41 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:00:41 -0000 Subject: Inferi Shminferi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137157 "prep0strus" wrote: > > Was anyone else rather unimpressed with the Inferi? I mean, aside from > the extreme echhh/jibblies factor, they didn't pose much of a > challenge. I wouldn't expect the production of fire to be beyond the > capabilities of an average adult wizard. Sure, being frightened, > creeped out, shocked, horrified etc (especially if you knew one of the > inferi when they were alive) would affect your reaction, but I don't > recall anything that would make me think a ring of fire would be hard > for a trained wizard to produce. Dumbledore is very powerful, but was > also very weakened, and managed to do it. If citizens took some > preparation classes, and had 'inferi drills', so that rings of fire was > a well rehearsed spell.... I figure, I must be forgetting something > that would make them a real threat. Help, anybody? > jmoses now: Dumbledore was able to produce the fire, but I believe that Harry still had to help him in the boat and get them accross the lake. After Dumbledore drank the potion he could hardly stand. If Harry wasn't there Dumbledore would not have even finished the potion, But if he did the inferi would have finished him off while he was in his weakened condition. - I do however agree with you that it should have been mentioned before book 6. It felt kind of like they were saying, " O yea! There are these other really scary things too. They are really dangerous, and they wil try to kill you. I guess I should have told you sometime in the last 5 years. My bad." Jmoses. From ColleyF at missouri.edu Wed Aug 10 14:40:26 2005 From: ColleyF at missouri.edu (Frances Marie) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:40:26 -0000 Subject: Ship: R/Hr and violence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137158 Sue: > One of our boys (16 years old) describes Hermione as "hot" and can't understand how > Harry could possibly be interested in Ginny! Wonder if his attitude is common in teenage > boys? :-) My guess would be the 16-yr-old is talking about the girl who plays Hermione in the movies, who IS incredibly lovely. Wouldn't we all have loved to have been a nerd like her? The girl who plays Ginny in comparison is pretty enough, but she's young and hasn't grown into her full loveliness yet--so of course to a 16 year old boy, he's not going to pick her. If you go by how everyone is described in the BOOKS, I'd say you can see it a little better. I think in the books Ginny is probably a little prettier than she is played in the movies, and also she is like utter stuntgirl. She can play Quidditch, fly like a dream, and loves a good joke--but she can be a *girl* too. Wouldn't that be most guys' dreamgirl? The girl who is a girl, but is actually interested in things that don't involve shopping, hairstyles, or shoes? Fran:) From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 10:32:11 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:32:11 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137159 > Cheryl: > > > Maybe she is in hiding as the Hogwarts librarian, Irma Pince (i.e. Im > > a Prince :) > > houyhnhnm: > > I took this as tongue-in-cheek when I first read it, but the idea has > really grown on me in the past few days. Ceridwen: I've been playing with this one, too. Along with other threads about Irma Pince. And have come up with a completely AU theory (don't laugh!), one that I don't quite believe myself, since Filch is a Squib: Filch is the elder Snape. Reasons for: Snape and Filch get along, and both seem to be sarcastic brats; the threads about a ship between Filch and Pince. Maybe the idea of the Abusive!Tobias was wrong, but people are still picking up on book clues that there is a bond between Filch and Pince. *snip* > If Madame Pince really is Snape's mama hiding out at Hogwarts in > Dumbledore's witness protection program, maybe that's the reason Snape > came over to the good side (or a condition of Snape's coming over to > the good side). Maybe that's why Dumbledore "trusts Severus Snape". > And maybe that wasn't really Madame Pince behind the long black veil. ;-) If so, then it may have been a conversation similar to the one on the tower, where Dumbledore offers Draco's parents protection. I don't put it past Voldemort to harm or kill the families of his DEs, so they can prove their ultimate loyalty to him. It's probably not the first time LV has used such a threat. Ceridwen. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 10 18:13:03 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:13:03 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: Valky: > IMO this theory is really strong Saraquel, because I agree that we > should look outside the box of Lovey dovey Mushy sweet things about > Love when looking for this final Love that will defeat Voldemort. > Throughout the series we have seen Love in forms of compassion, > Friendship, sacrifice, loyalty.. all the sentimental stuff, AND we > have also seen the Terrifying Power of Dumbledore *decidely not > mushy*, we've seen Snape and Draco be very very good in some ways and > Harry and Hermione be very very bad in others, we've felt sorry for > Voldemort and we've been very p**sed off at Harry's Father, we've > hardly been lead to think that the books are supposed to end with a > mushy sentimental feeling conquering the bad guy, IMHO. Geoff: We've had this sort of discussion more than once in the past. I fail to see how you can write off certainly sacrifice and loyalty as sentimental. A long way back, in message 110643, I wrote this: "I think this takes us back to the old question of what do we mean by love? The word is a catch-all. "I love you", "I love strawberries and cream", "Don't you just love the way he scores points over the other guy?" C.S.Lewis attempted to tackle this in his book "The Four Loves" when he went back to the four Greek words: eros, philos, agape and storge and shows that each reveals a different facet of the idea. This is why I objected a few days ago when someone wrote something like "That's why I don't want Harry to win by using (ugh!) love." I pointed out that real love is the sort of love demonstrated by Christ on the Cross - not love being crooned about but real, strong, deep love unyielding in its aims to care for others and to put their needs in front. "Greater love has no man...." etc." But I would agree that judgment based on agape may well play a part in Voldemort's feelings and his abhorrence of love - which is a marvellous contradiction in terms!. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 18:12:24 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:12:24 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: <20050810173544.48951.qmail@web52914.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137161 > Guru opines: > I've been thinking about another interpretation of Snape's actions from the > start. > > Suppose Snape realizes that LV has to be stopped and the Harry is the only one > who can do it. He also realizes that having been brought up by Muggles, Harry > is starting out behind. Add to that the fact that a number of the faculty give > Harry special treatment and Old Sev decides he has to become Drill Instructor > Snape (DI!Snape to you). Think R. Lee Ermey or Louis Gossett Jr. in black robes > and a taller hat. He's going to whip the kid into shape no matter what what > and doesn't care if Harry hates him in the process. I think that interpretation of his character would be more valid before the Occulomency lessons in OOTP. I think those showed that Snape had very little vested interest in teaching Harry anything. He clearly let his personal feelings get in the way. Snape cruelty wasn't impersonal, drill instructor be all you can be type of cruelty, it was deeply personal and ugly. before OOTP though, I think that could have been a very good argument in favor of Snape. phoenixgod2000 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:13:09 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:13:09 -0000 Subject: Faked death or faked AK? (Was: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137162 Pat wrote: > Avada Kedavra shouldn't have made Dumbledore fly up into the air. > It didn't do that to Cedric. He just had a surprised look and fell, > with his eyes open. Dumbledore's eyes were closed. Jo also > mentioned he fell out of sight. > > So this is what I'm thinking. You have to really mean the > Unforgivable Curses to do them, that has been mentioned several > times. Snape is one of the strongest at Occlumency and Legilimency, > maybe the strongest if he's fooling Voldemort, so he has excellent > mind control. In this book, the usefulness of not saying an > incantation was also stressed. What if Snape was able to say Avada > Kedravra, not mean it, and instead do a non-verbal spell to send > Dumbledore up into the air. Once out of sight, he could use a spell > or turn into something to get him safely to the ground where he > could play dead. > > As far as the portrait appearing in the headmaster's office, they > had time to think to include that in the plan, and to plan the > funeral. At the funeral, the flames, followed by Harry thinking he > saw a Phoenix fly away, followed immediately by the table being > covered leaves me convinced that Dumbledore either flew away or > Disapparated during that. Previously, whenever Harry "thought it > was as if", it was, so why should this one be different? > > The barman of the Hogshead was mentioned as being at the funeral. > That would be Aberforth Dumbledore, no? That reminded me that Albus > and Aberforth looked somewhat alike. Albus could pass himself off > as Aberforth, and continue to come and go from the Hogshead, as he > had already been doing. Carol responds: I think we're fooling ourselves if we don't believe that Dumbledore is truly dead. Setting aside the devastated child readers who will have suffered for nothing if he returns in a form other than his portrait, we have the following evidence: The fact that Snape is still alive (as he would not be if he's broken his vow) and Harry is released from the freezing spell, Dumbledore's broken body at the bottom of the tower, the portrait itself (only the portraits of dead headmasters hang in that office, and DD's appeared magically at his death), Fawkes's lament, the phoenixlike spirit or Patronus (belatedly) leaving Dumbledore's body, the tomb closing over him at the end of the funeral . . . . Dumbledore, we must remember, was already dying from the Horcrux poison. Snape had no time or opportunity to cure him, whether he wished to or not. He could not defend himself from Draco except by words. He was slipping down the wall, helpless, unable even to summon Fawkes to save him. It is impossible that either Slughorn or Aberforth (both of whom are present at the funeral) could be impersonating him. Neither of them could have entered the Pensieve with Harry, taken the poison, and returned with him, sweeping aside the protections against brooms as they flew toward the astronomy tower. Nor would Dumbledore have allowed their bodies to be enclosed within a tomb bearing his name. (As an aside, I do think we'll have a faked death in Book 7, but it will be Harry's and will involve the Draught of Living Death.) More important, I think, Harry comes to terms with death in the funeral chapter, understanding at last that death is not the worst thing that can happen, that death is the next great adventure. He was not given the opportunity to say goodbye to Sirius, but seeing Dumbledore honored by everyone from the centaurs to the merpeople (and hearing the glittering generalities by the man in black who seems to be the WW equivalent of a minister minus the religious implications) gives Harry the opportunity to remember Dumbledore as he really was. Twice he smiles or laughs unexpectedly, remembering Dumbledore's eccentric sense of humor. Harry *must* move on. He can no longer be dependent on a mentor. He has to be essentially alone (except for Ron and Hermione and eventually without even them) to confront Voldemort, facing the very real possibility of his own death without fear or hesitation, and he must understand what death is and is not in order to do so. And the fearlessness that results from hatred and the desire for vengeance will not do if his secret weapon is Love. However, I absolutely agree that Dumbledore's death is not what it seems. I am certain that he's truly dead (and so is Sirius, as JKR reitierates in the funeral chapter) and that he will not return as a ghost (since he's not afraid to face what lies beyond) or as a phoenix (Fawkes, the only phoenix we know, is a bird, not an animagus, and he is not Dumbledore). *But* it is highly probable that he did not die from an Avada Kedavra, as Harry (who judges by appearances) thinks he does. As you say, Snape is an expert at casting nonverbal spells, and if anyone has the mind control to disguise another spell as an Avada Kedavra, it's the Occlumen/Legilimens/potions and DADA genius Severus Snape. Also, as you say, Dumbledore's eyes are closed and he does not wear a surprised expression (like Cedric and the dead Riddles, all of them killed by unquestionable AKs). Dead Dumbledore looks remarkably like Portrait!Dumbledore, peacefully asleep. Again, as you say, the spell Snape casts does not act like an Avada Kedavra. There is no rushing sound, no flash of blinding light. When Cedric dies, Harry feels ill and can't see. Nothing of the sort happens when Dumbledore is hit by Snape's spell--only a green light (fake Avada Kedavra?) and DD "blasted" into the air and falling backward limply like a rag doll, rather than falling to the floor, instantly dead. Harry is not immediately released from the freezing spell when Snape's supposed AK hits DD in the chest. There is time enough for DD to fall from the tower, close his eyes and compose his mind, and strike the ground. I have argued in my post # 134666 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134666 that Snape's spell was a disguised Impedimenta, and I have seen no arguments to convince me otherwise. In any case, JKR has gone to great pains to contrast it with the Avada Kedavra that killed Cedric, and as I noted earlier, to describe the effects of an Impedimenta only two pages after Dumbledore falls from the tower. The question for me is not whether Dumbledore is dead (I'm sure he is), but why and how Snape killed him. Yes, he had no choice but to kill Dumbledore or break his vow and allow Draco to be killed; kill Dumbledore (who was dying anyway and could not be saved) or die himself (which from Snape's perspective might well be the lesser of two evils, the coward's way out). But there is more going on, as we know from that last look exchanged between the two Legilimens. We don't know--only Snape and JKR know--what passed between Snape and the dying mentor who had loved and trusted him. Also, as someone on this list has noted, Snape knows that Harry is present, in his invisibility cloak, watching. His eyes have swept the room, and he would not have missed the second broom, which the other DEs, not being overly bright or observant, seem to have missed. He must guess that Harry has been immobilized for his own safety, to keep him from interfering and being killed by the Death Eaters that Dumbledore knew were coming. And, as I've noted elsewhere, Snape's look of hatred and revulsion (so similar to Harry's reaction to force-feeding DD the Horcrux poison) does not occur until after he has looked into the dying Dumbledore's eyes. Things are not as they seem. This is not ESE!Snape casting an AK at the hated Dumbledore (when have we seen any indication that he hated Dumbledore) and unconcernedly carrying out a long-cherished desire to murder him for "glory" and power. This is Snape, careful and inscrutable as ever until the moment when his (self?)hatred and revulsion (at the deed he must do?) are revealed on his face: Snape, the actor. Snape, the double or triple agent whose loyalties still remain in question. There is nothing black and white or obvious about it, unless, like Harry, we see through the eyes of prejudice and hatred. Without Snape, Ron would be dead. So would Katie Bell. And Dumbledore would have died from the ring Horcrux rather than, tragically and ironically for both of them, at Snape's own hand. Why would Snape cast a *fake* AK (assuming that he did so) when a real AK would have assured DD's death, assuming that Snape had the will to cast one? (That he has the power to do so is beyond question.) Because an AK is a Death Eater's curse. The DEs would expect him to use it and he has to fool them into thinking that he's done so in order to maintain his position as second in command. (That they already fear and respect him is evident from the moment he enters the room.) But casting something other than an AK would be a statement to Harry (who fails to see it) and to himself that he is not a Death Eater. An AK is also Unforgiveable (whatever the implications of that term may be), unlike an Impedimenta, which can be used for good or evil and will not automatically land its caster in Azkaban (or corrupt his soul in and of itslef). By casting an Impedimenta that knocks the already dying Dumbledore from the battlements, Snape fulfills the terrible third provision of his Unbreakable Vow and remains alive to fulfill the first and second provisions (helping and protecting Draco) and maintaining his cover with the DEs (whom he hurries off the Hogwarts premises). What else it accomplishes, we do not yet know, but JKR is not done with Snape and has not (I hope) invested so much time and effort into characterizing him only to shock us with his perfidy at the end of HBP. Harry himself is now sidetracked from his destined task of defeating and destroying Lord Voldemort by a personal hatred and desire for vengeance. But as Snape tells him (in his characteristically sarcastic and arrogant way), Harry must not use the Unforgiveable Curses. He must not let hatred and vengeance conquer him. He must not take the path that Snape himself took as a youth, wherever his loyalties now lie. He must not be tempted by the Dark Arts. He must remain pure, and to do that, he must close his mind to anger and hatred and the desire for vengeance. Love, not hatred, will conquer Voldemort. And Snape, I think, knows this and is trying to convey this message to Harry, not only in their confrontation near the end of HBPbut through the faked AK. It's the final lesson that Harry must learn before he destroys the Horcruxes and defeats Voldemort: Appearances can be and often are deceiving. Dumbledore was right to trust Severus Snape. Carol From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 10 18:15:09 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:15:09 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137163 Christina: > And she's described as having a > "hooked nose" (page 307 of US HBP) I mean, come ON- who is the only > other character that has one of those? It's practically Snape's > signature physical trait. I love the idea that this might be the > reason Dumbledore trusts Snape. JKR likes to surprise us, but you can > always go back in the text and say, "Ohhh, look! It was there all > along!" houyhnhnm: Yes, the memory Harry sees when he breaks into Snape's mind during the occlumency lesson describes a black haired hook-nosed man shouting at a crying woman, a typical JKR slight-of-hand to make us *assume* Snape takes after his father, and the description of Eileen Prince in HBP is somewhat vague. Additonal evidence for Madame Pince as Snape's mother is the fact that Neville makes the Snape boggart don his grandmother's clothes which include a hat decorated with a vulture (underscored by the Christmas cracker hat). Madame Pince is described more than once, I'm sure, as vulture like--very Rowlingesque, IMO. I wasn't seriously suggesting that Snape came to pay his respects at Dumbledore's funeral disguised as his mother (though I do have another theory about Snape, Dumbledore, and father-love). More likely the long black veil symbolizes the fact that Madame Pince is in hiding or that there is something about her that is hidden from others. We know how important mother-love is in the Potterverse. All mothers, however seemingly cold, love their children. All sons, even Percy, even Draco, love their mothers. The exception is Voldemort, which is why he is a monster. Christina: > ...And just as a little aside, for the curious among us, the name > "Irma" means "Goddess of war" or "noble." Huh. houyhnhnm: Yep. I love the allusions in HP* and am somewhat chagrined at how many I miss. I am glad there are others to point them out. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:19:19 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050810181919.371.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137164 Ceridwen: I've been playing with this one, too. Along with other threads about Irma Pince. And have come up with a completely AU theory (don't laugh!), one that I don't quite believe myself, since Filch is a Squib: Filch is the elder Snape. Juli: But Tobias Snape was/is a muggle, not a squib, that's what The Prophet reported, we knoe the Prophet is wrong sometimes, but I don't think such a meaningless news could be altered, IMO I do like the whole Irma Pince is Mrs Snape, Jo has played with anagrams before (Tom Marvolo Riddle = I am Lord Voldemort), so Irma Pince could be I'm a Prince, I like this idea. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 10 18:23:15 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:23:15 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: snip > > Guru opines: > > > Harry special treatment and Old Sev decides he has to become Drill > Instructor > > Snape (DI!Snape to you). Think R. Lee Ermey or Louis Gossett Jr. > in black robes > > and a taller hat. He's going to whip the kid into shape no matter > what what > > and doesn't care if Harry hates him in the process. > phoenixgod2000 wrote: > I think that interpretation of his character would be more valid > before the Occulomency lessons in OOTP. I think those showed that > Snape had very little vested interest in teaching Harry anything. He > clearly let his personal feelings get in the way. Snape cruelty > wasn't impersonal, drill instructor be all you can be type of > cruelty, it was deeply personal and ugly. > > before OOTP though, I think that could have been a very good > argument in favor of Snape. > Until Harry went walking thru Snape's thoughts uninvited in the Pensive, Snape was not cruel to Harry(well, at least he wasn't crueler than he usually is). In fact, he answered Harry's questions, with little sarcasm and was almost *kind* (for Snape) to him when asking him whom did the dog belong too? Snape got very angry - as would anyone except DD - when Harry snuck into Snape's memories that he had hidden from Harry. Snape's personal feelings got in the way there - but up until that point, I feel he was trying - he kept telling Harry to clear himself of emotions, to not *yell*, as it would expend energy from the task at hand. colebiancardi From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:25:59 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:25:59 -0000 Subject: Does Snape hate Dumbledore? WAS: Re: Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137166 > > > Carol responds: This is not ESE!Snape casting an AK at > the hated Dumbledore (when have we seen any indication that he hated > Dumbledore) and unconcernedly carrying out a long-cherished desire to > murder him for "glory" and power. This is Snape, careful and > inscrutable as ever until the moment when his (self?)hatred and > revulsion (at the deed he must do?) are revealed on his face: Snape, > the actor. Snape, the double or triple agent whose loyalties still > remain in question. Alla: Hmmm, we certainly saw signs in PoA that Snape resents Dumbledore, IMO. You know " his only hope is that Dumbledore would not interfere", " you have not forgotten Headmaster that he tried to kill ME" and "my memory is as good as ever" ( paraphrasing, don't have a book with me). I think hatred can grew up from resentment very nicely and if one could assume that PoA was a turning point for Snape... Besides, if one takes Lupinlore's speculation that the argument in the forest was about Snape not wanting to watch over Harry anymore as a possibility, we can see even more resentment. And when chance comes, Snape takes it. :-) JMO, Alla. From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Aug 10 18:31:11 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:31:11 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > I like being able to argue my point with someone who has the > opposite Me too! > view, so I will give you my take on DD/Snape. To me the most > important comment wrt to this is in OOTP. DD to Voldemort (and I'm > paraphrasing here!) 'It is your inability to realise that there are > things worse than death that is your greatest flaw'. > To me this suggests that DD would be perfectly willing to sacrifice > himself to help Harry. Yes. But it also suggests, now that we have read Book 6, that by this fear Voldemort has created the seeds of his own destruction--the Horcruxes > But the question is why? > Voldemort would never understand DD's sacrifice and therefore would > regard Snape as 'honoured above all others'. Snape is therefore in > a very powerful position to help Harry. > IMO, the richness that you speak of can still be there. I think > Snape's prejudice against Harry's father is going to nearly prevent > him doing what DD has planned for him to do. But there is > definitely some link between Snape & Lily (I suspect that this is > the important bit of info on Lily for book 7). It will be Harry's > eyes (his mother's eyes) that remind Snape of why he switched sides > (how else can Harry's eyes be so important). But see, and this is something I haven't read people saying yet-- Harry's eyes being like his mother's has already yielded the greatest possible result: Slughorn told Harry the truth about the night Tom Riddle asked about Horcruxes, and by doing so, allowed Dumbledore to take the fight against Voldemort to his weakest part: his fear of death. I, personally--and this is just my own personal view--honestly cannot believe that Snape was in love with Lily and that he's going to look into Harry's eyes at the end of Book 7 and suddenly act differently *because of that alone.* He's been looking in to Harry's eyes for 6 years and he still despises Harry. JKR has said that redemption is an important theme and something like it is possible Snape may redeem himself. But I don't believe he ever switched sides; in fact, I am beginning to think he's had no side at all, and has been playing both sides. Also, IMO there is no canon for the "Snape is in love with Lily" theory. I know folks in the online Potterverse like to create all kinds of theories with no canon (Snape and DD cooked up an intricate plot, including faking DD's death, Lupin is evil, Ginny wore a love potion perfume) to get around the impending realities JKR is setting forth, but that's not how I approach the book. Consequently, my theories are less interesting, possibly, but they're always tied to the books. JKR has one book left to tie up all sorts of things. All of the backstory and subplots are done, IMO. This last book isn't going to introduce _deus ex machina_ to explain all sorts of convoluted things; indeed the books, although they may partially conceal or disguise things, are pretty straightforward. I can't see how she's going to waste a precious chapter, or even a few pages, on how Ginny made a love potion perfume in order to make Harry fall in love with her. We're at the end of the series, and things are going to be simpler rather than more complicated. I know the mileage of others varies, and that's OK. > > > > 3. From the POV of JKR: she's all but said, in her interview > > > > last month, that Harry needs to look for the locket, the cup, > > > > the snake, and the missing item. > > > > > > > What she said was - > > > 'Harry now knows ? well he believes he knows ? what he's > > > facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the > > > mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore > > > says, `There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, > > > and then you go for Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and > > > that's what he's got to do.' > > > > Right. None of her quote contradicts the contention I made. She > > reaffirmed that we can trust Dumbledore on the 4 items he names. > > > > Isn't interpretation a great thing!! To me, there seems so much > ambiguity in JKR's statement, that it guarantees that we don't know > the whole story wrt Horcruxes. I also don't think the Horcruxes > will take a lot of time to deal with. > The locket - At 12 Grimmauld Place > The cup - I think this will be the real challenge > The wand? - Either Neville has it or Voldemort has it. > Nagini (or possibly Harry) - Find Voldemort & you find the snake Finding the Horcruxes? Probably not. But breaking the curses on them to destroy them? That will take a fair bit of time IMO. jujube From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:35:20 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050810183520.64389.qmail@web53112.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137168 Geoff: ...edited... We've had this sort of discussion more than once in the past. I fail to see how you can write off certainly sacrifice and loyalty as sentimental. A long way back, in message 110643, I wrote this: "I think this takes us back to the old question of what do we mean by love? The word is a catch-all. "I love you", "I love strawberries and cream", "Don't you just love the way he scores points over the other guy?" This is why I objected a few days ago when someone wrote something like "That's why I don't want Harry to win by using (ugh!) love." I pointed out that real love is the sort of love demonstrated by Christ on the Cross - not love being crooned about but real, strong, deep love unyielding in its aims to care for others and to put their needs in front. "Greater love has no man...." etc." Juli: I remember that discussion, mostly because I kept saying that the "power" couldn't be loved, I couldn't understand why it was so powerful, after much thinking I realized something: it isn't the "I love you, let's get married love", or the "I love to play soccer", it's beyond that, Love is all that and much more, love makes us move, love is the reason why people sacrifice themselves, love keeps us alive. I couldn't understand this for I took love for granted, I never thought more about it, I didn't think it was so great, but now, I think differently. Many of you may not be Christians so the whole argument of "Jesus died because he loves us" may not make much sense, but to the Christians (IMO), it shows us that if you really love someone or something you are willing to do whatever it takes to save them. I have long believed that Harry can't kill Voldemort using his wand, first there's the whole Priori Incantem thing, I also wouldn't like Harry to use an AK, because killing rips the soul apart, and one of Harry's greatest strengths is his whole soul. I think Harry will defeat him using love, it could be in a sacrifice sort of way just like Lily did 16 years ago: Harry could stand between his friends/Ginny/anyone and Voldemort, and the curse could just bounce of him, not kill him, but he could remain harmless and also whomever he was trying to protect, and Voldemort would be gone for good (after of course destroying the horcruxes). I'm sure that it will be spectacular, something we've never seen before... Harry has also been protected by another sacrifice: Dumbledore's, he petrified Harry instead of defending himself, and with this he saved Harry's life while he condemned his own... it could also play a major role in the future. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 10 18:35:40 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:35:40 -0000 Subject: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137169 Ceridwen: > I've been playing with this one, too. Along with other threads about > Irma Pince. And have come up with a completely AU theory (don't > laugh!), one that I don't quite believe myself, since Filch is a > Squib: Filch is the elder Snape. houhnhnm: I'm not laughing. I thought of that, too, but was embarassed to propose it. It seemed a little rococo. But what if Filch is not a squib, but a Muggle posing as a squib? I'm going to go read the scene on the staircase in GoF again. I also want to reread Dumbledore's hallucinations in the cave again. I had a gut feeling that it was somehow connected with Snape, but it didn't seem to fit completely. "Don't hurt *them*". From Nanagose at aol.com Wed Aug 10 18:37:18 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:37:18 -0000 Subject: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: <42FA3864.5030906@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137170 Kathy: > I think that Snape is particularly ashamed of the memory of > calling Lily a "Mudblood" and has chosen to hide it from Harry. Christina: I agree that Snape is particularly ashamed of calling Lily a "Mudblood," but I don't see why he would be so careful about hiding it from Harry. I really don't think Harry would be all that shocked to hear "Mudblood" come from Snape's mouth, and he already dislikes Snape so much already that I doubt that the knowledge that he called his mom dirty names would have significantly increased that hatred. Also, Harry doesn't seem that bothered by it afterwards, fixating instead on James (as he always does). > Kathy writes: > He doesn't object to Harry seeing unfortunate memories from his > childhood and youth... Christina: I think he does. When Snape pushes Harry out of his head, he's white and shaking. Harry even remarks on the "loathing in his eyes." Snape isn't physically hurting Harry like he does later on, but he's definitely *not* pleased. Also, in pushing Harry out of his head, his "ENOUGH!" is in all caps, which Snape doesn't often revert to (he does in the "Don't call me coward" line and at the end of PoA, both times when he was extremely angry/upset) Kathy: > Snape was showing nervousness and fear when he accessed Harry's > memories of the Ministry door, and Voldemort talking to a Death > Eater because the connection might have been active. Christina: Well, we don't really know how Snape acts when he's nervous or afraid, because to be honest, I can't think of a single instance where he's described that way (in any of the books). When Snape realizes that Harry has seen the DoM, Snape stands over Harry, "looking furious," and Harry remarks that "Snape seemed even angrier than he had done two minutes before, when Harry had seen into his own memories." I would buy that scared!Snape manifests itself as angry!Snape, but why is Snape scared? Because he realizes that LV can put thoughts in Harry's head? Because he realizes that LV saw the thoughts that Harry broke into? Because he is angry that Harry isn't putting any effort into Occlumency? Also, just to note, Snape doesn't know that Harry dreamt of Voldemort talking to the Death Eater. Ron witnesses it and they tell Hermione the next day, but Harry never mentions it to Snape. Kathy: > He must have been in a panic, which was displyed > as fury, but not so much that he did not immediately draw Harry's > attention (and ours) to the behaviour of the Marauders and away from > Lily. Christina: I see what you're saying, but the major immediate revelation of "Snape's Worst Memory" *is* about the Marauders- it's that Marauders:Snape is NOT Trio:Malfoy, like I think Harry (and most of the readers) previously assumed. And Snape *always* harps on James. Considering the fact that the last thing Harry sees when he gets pulled out of the pensieve is James threatening to take off Snape's pants (and that Snape takes every opportunity to talk badly about James), I think it's natural that Snape's only comment about the memory is about James. Kathy: > At no time was there mention of Lily. Later, Harry focussed on the > behaviour of his father and Lily's relationship with his father. It > never crossed his mind to ask Sirius and Lupin why Lily defended > Snape. Christina: Is there ever any mention of Lily? We go five whole books before anyone really says anything about who she was. Harry always focuses on his father. He asks Sirius and Lupin about James because his behavior in the pensieve is in contrast with the way Harry had previously thought James acted. Lily's behavior probably didn't seem that odd to him, or his thoughts on his father overshadowed those on his mother (as they usually do). Harry has occasionally shown curiousity about his father, but he has never asked about his mom. Harry's lack of curiousity about his mother has always seemed odd to me- and just where are all of *Lily's* friends? JKR has even said that she was a popular girl, but so far only Slughorn has ever commented on her. Kathy: > I believe that the memories which Voldemort can > never be allowed to see, Snape regreting his actions, possibly > trying to save Lily at GH (voice Harry heard), and confessing to > Dumbledore have been removed and are in Dumbledore's safe-keeping. > IMHO Christina: I might not agree with all of your specific examples, but I think your theory is dead-on. Snape is a master Occlumens, but why take risks? I think that there are definitely a couple of vials out there somewhere with some *very* enlightening memories of Snape's inside of them. At the very least, I would think that Snape would remove certain memories when he visits LV and then puts them back in his head when he returns. Christina From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 10 18:37:51 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:37:51 -0000 Subject: Does Snape hate Dumbledore? WAS: Re: Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > > Alla: > > Hmmm, we certainly saw signs in PoA that Snape resents Dumbledore, > IMO. You know " his only hope is that Dumbledore would not > interfere", " you have not forgotten Headmaster that he tried to kill > ME" and "my memory is as good as ever" ( paraphrasing, don't have a > book with me). > > I think hatred can grew up from resentment very nicely and if one > could assume that PoA was a turning point for Snape... > > I don't think Snape resented DD for that. As DD stated about Snape's meltdown at the end of PoA, he suffered a major disappointment. I think DD was just telling him he knows....and the fact is we had huge discussions around the *prank* that Sirius pulled on Snape and if there was more to it than we know about. colebiancardi From phanbu at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:40:48 2005 From: phanbu at yahoo.com (phanbu) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:40:48 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachaelmcadams" wrote: > So, building on Dumbledore's theory that Voldemort wanted to make a > horcrux out of something from each of Hogwarts' founders, I think the > horcrux that we don't know is from Ravenclaw. I'm certainly not going to try to refute Dumbledore's reasons for believeing that Tomm Riddle wanted to make his final horcruxes (or horcruces?) from the Hogwarts founders' belongings. I have, however, been trying to create a horcrux creation time line. > Alright, just to go over the horcruxes (though I'm pretty sure > everyone here know them), they are: > 1)the diary This was Tom Riddle's personal belonging, which he purchased from a muggle bookseller. It was made into a horcrux using the death of (Moaning) Myrtle in 1943. [Note: Does this qualify as an actual murder, as the basilisk did the the killing, not Tom?] > 2)the ring This ring belonged to Salazar Slytherin and was passed down through the generations to Tom's mother. It would have been made into a horcrux with the murder of Tom's father (Tom Riddle, Sr.) in 1944. Tom's grandparents were murdered, too. > 3)Slytherin's locket (which was likely found at Grimmauld Place) > 4)Hufflepuff's cup Tom left Hogwarts in 1945 and began working for Borgin and Burkes. This is how he met Hepzibah Smith, who at the time owned Slytherin's locket and Hufflepuff's chalice. He murders the woman to steal these items. He probably used this murder to make the chalice a horcrux. I believe this for no reason except that she was HH's heir. It is not clear to me who was murdered to make the locket into a horcrux. Possibly MrBorgin of Borgin and Burkes, since he cheated Tom's mother when buying the locket. I'm placing both of these murders sometime between 1945 and 1948. > 5)Something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's Now, Tom has made two horcruxes from objects that once belonged to Salazar Slytherin and one from an object that once belonged to Helga Hufflepuff. This is when he probably decided to create the last two horcruxes from items belonging to the last two Hogwarts founders. He was only successful at finding one such item. I'm not going to make a prediction regarding the identity of this item. It seems that Tom was willing to wait a long time before turning this item into a horcrux though. During this long wait was when he applied for the DADA position at Hogwarts, apparently (but not necessarily) an attempt to get into the castle to locate the item. I have no idea what the item was or who was murdered to turn it into a horcrux. > *note: these 5 were made into horcruxes before Voldemort tries to > kill Harry > > 6) Nagini (she was made into a horcrux when he killed Frank Bryce) > > As well, Dumbledore says that Voldemort was planning on making his > last horcrux when he killed Harry, but since he failed, he was unable > to do so. Finally, we know that the attempted murder of Harry happened in 1981. [I have to say that if this is true, Voldemort is very patient, waiting over 30 years to attempt his final horcrux from when the decision was made to use the Hogwarts founders items.] If Nagini was indeed created as a living horcrux whan Frank Bryce was murdered, this happened in 1994. Cheers! -- Phanbu From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:43:49 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:43:49 -0000 Subject: Does Snape hate Dumbledore? WAS: Re: Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137173 Colebiancardi: > I don't think Snape resented DD for that. As DD stated about Snape's > meltdown at the end of PoA, he suffered a major disappointment. I > think DD was just telling him he knows....and the fact is we had huge > discussions around the *prank* that Sirius pulled on Snape and if > there was more to it than we know about. > Alla: But DD does not even say these words to Snape, he says it to Fudge. I absolutely do think that a huge resentment could have been born out of it. But of course it is just a matter of interpretation. In light of JKR saying flat out that DD has no confidantes, I also doubt that DD EVER informed Snape about what really happened that night when Sirius escaped. I think that Snape was VERY dissapointed that Dumbledore did not support him ( I don't want to get into discussion whether Snape had a right to be dissapointed - he absolutely could have been), but I think that the fact that DD leaves Snape out of the loop on those events,may have annoyed him very much. Just me speculating obviously, but I believe that there are possible hints to that in canon. Alla. From rt11guru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:43:52 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Florence (was: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050810184352.21222.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137174 Deb: Maybe Snape was attracted to Lily, or maybe "Florence" (if Snape was the one caught snogging her behind the greenhouse) was in the audience.. Christina: Ah, Florence. I keep wishing that somebody will ask JKR about her, but alas, nothing. Guru: Being relatively new to the group, I'm wondering if anyone has ever noted that the Italian city that we know as Florence is known to them as Firenze? I do know that someone earlier stated that the lily is the symbol of Florence. That is incorrect, it is the iris. While we are looking at names, it took me the longest time to connect Sirius, the dog star, and Sirius Black, the big black dog. Having made the connection, I looked up Regulus, which my ancient dictionary noted was sometimes called "The Heart of the Lion (Leo)". We should all be on the lookout for black lions walking about in book 7. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From glcherry at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 10 18:54:38 2005 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:54:38 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair? In-Reply-To: <105.66a5e540.302b1528@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137175 --- If I remember correctly, and I might be wrong...James Potter. His wand was Mahogany, and Unicorn hair. Lorrie In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/2005 1:14:19 AM Central Standard Time, > clehrenet_81 at y... writes: > Do we know of anyone else that has unicorn hair in their that has > died or is still alive? > > Ehren > > From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Aug 10 18:37:31 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:37:31 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137176 > Pippin: > > But I think you are right, and the principle adults in the story have > already made the choices that show what they are, with the exception > of Pettigrew, who obviously has something important to do. > > It is for Harry to discern that and judge them, and he will get it > wrong, again and again and again, until he learns to *open* his mind > and make decisions based on the pertinent evidence. > > He has plenty of evidence that Snape is a bully and a sadist, and was > a racist at one time. What he saw in HBP is that whether someone > is any of those things should not be judged pertinent > to the question of whether that someone is a killer. Oh, but he has plenty of evidence that Snape is a killer, as well! He saw it with his own eyes, remember? And, if we want to talk about other people's opinions, the evidence is certainly good enough for every other major figure we meet at the end of HBP - i.e. McGonagall, Lupin, Tonks, the Weasleys, Ron, Hermione, etc. Now, as has been said that was also the case with Sirius, and it was wrong. But, if Snape turns out to be innocent in one way or another, it won't be because Harry has judged wrongly. It will be because a crucial piece of evidence has been withheld. For that matter, most of the misjudgments you mention in the earlier books fall into that category as well. Harry actually judges extremely well, based on the evidence he has in front of him. The fact that other people often withhold evidence from him doesn't speak to his mistakes, but the mistakes (or lies) of those with whom he deals. > > > But in the end, the trick, as Harry said, will be finding Voldie. > Only the Dumbledore loyalist(s) will want Voldemort > dead. That's where Harry's going to have to decide who's really > Dumbledore's man and who isn't. > Oh my goodness! There are PLENTY of people other than Dumbledore loyalists who would be glad to see Voldemort dead, and would be more than happy to point Harry on the way if they thought he would succeed and they would be far enough away from the fall out. That doesn't mean they aren't evil, or that they mean well, or that the aren't murderers, or that Harry should trust them, or that they don't deserve to be severely punished. Probably over half the Death Eaters would be secretly pleased to see Voldemort go down so that they could take his place or pick up the pieces or just get out from under. Recall Snape's excuse to Bellatrix about why he stayed at Hogwarts and didn't go looking for Voldemort after the events of 1981. He basically said he thought Voldie was gone and he was out to preserve his own skin. Neither Bellatrix nor Narcissa seemed to have trouble believing that, and one suspects the attitude is common among the DEs. Scrimgeour is certainly not a Dumbledore loyalist, nor is Fudge, nor is Umbridge, nor probably is Percy, but I'm sure all of them would be happy to see Voldemort go and would probably help Harry to that end. As you say Pettigrew may end up helping Harry. Is it because he is being redeemed, or because he just wants out from under Voldemort's thumb? Snape may indeed help Harry. But is that necessarily because he is innocent or is Dumbledore's man? Not at all. I can think of many reasons why Guilty!Snape and/or Evil!Snape would want to see Voldemort dead, and would be more than happy to help Harry to find him (especially if he thought Harry would die in the process). In the end, especially if JKR wants to make this an "adult" book, it may not come down to who is guilty and who is innocent. It may come down to "The person who is an enemy of my enemy at this particular moment is my friend at this particular moment, but don't think I won't deal with you later Snape/Pettigrew/Malfoy/whoever." After all, being mature isn't always about correctly discerning who's evil and who's not. It's about holding your nose and cooperating with a lesser evil (e.g. Snape) to destroy a greater one (e.g. Voldemort). It's also, however, about never forgetting that the lesser of two evils is NOT good, but evil in its (or his) own right, and to be eliminated if that chance ever becomes available. Lupinlore From mud69_98 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 18:45:17 2005 From: mud69_98 at yahoo.com (mud69_98) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:45:17 -0000 Subject: Is the math wrong, or is something hidden here? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137177 When the three get their OWL results back (HBP, 102), it is noted that Hermione got 11 OWL's-- 10 Outstanding, and an E in Defense Against the Dark Arts. But, when you list all the classes she takes, the number only adds up to 10. If you take the list that JKR posted for Harry's 9 OWL's, then substitute Divination (because Hermione dropped it) for Arithmancy and Ancient Runes, the total only comes to 10. The only other possibility I can think of is that she never actually dropped Muggle Studies in Year 3, despite the fact that she said she would and hasn't mentioned it since. Is there a possibility that Hermione took the OWL for Muggle Studies if she dropped the class? I guess it's not impossible, but I'm trying to flesh out whether this is a mistake of the math or something more secretive. Mud69 From prep0strus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 19:04:56 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:04:56 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" wrote: > --- > If I remember correctly, and I might be wrong...James Potter. His wand > was Mahogany, and Unicorn hair. > Lorrie > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 8/10/2005 1:14:19 AM Central Standard Time, > > clehrenet_81 at y... writes: > > Do we know of anyone else that has unicorn hair in their that has > > died or is still alive? > > > > Ehren > > > > And also, I think Ron - JKR said at some point she wanted the main 3 to each have a different core of the 3 main ones - so Harry is phoenix feather, Hermione is dragon heart string, and ron is unicorn hair. ~Prep0strus From julie.martineau at oricom.ca Wed Aug 10 18:24:37 2005 From: julie.martineau at oricom.ca (joiedevivre1971) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:24:37 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: <20050810173544.48951.qmail@web52914.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137179 > Guru opines: > I've been thinking about another interpretation of Snape's actions from the > start. > > Suppose Snape realizes that LV has to be stopped and the Harry is the only one > who can do it. He also realizes that having been brought up by Muggles, Harry > is starting out behind. Add to that the fact that a number of the faculty give > Harry special treatment and Old Sev decides he has to become Drill Instructor > Snape (DI!Snape to you). Think R. Lee Ermey or Louis Gossett Jr. in black robes > and a taller hat. He's going to whip the kid into shape no matter what what > and doesn't care if Harry hates him in the process. Julie now: Ha, Guru, you've hit my take on this! The best way to toughen someone up is to be tough with them. I agree with your DI!Snape theory, also because of the way in which Alan Rickman portrayed him. JKR did admit, after all, that she had to give a few Snape secrets to Rickman in order to help him in his portrayal. The Snape-between-werewolf-and- children scene is one example. Anyway - aren't army soldiers made tough through physical hardship and mental "banging"? One Occlumency lesson line that really says it goes something like this (sorry - no book in hand): "You do not even try - then you will be easy prey for the Dark Lord, Potter!" Argh, I can't remember the exact wording - but it really sounded like "I have no vested interest in doing this to you, but I'm doing it with ridiculous ease; imagine what someone *really* nasty could do to you!" Yep - that DI!Snape thing really does it for me. Is Snape ESE? Is he carrying out some cleverly-twisted Dumbledorian plan? Is helping Harry a good way to get rid of LV for Snape? I don't know. But whatever the reason, he's shaking Harry into building up mental and emotional defenses. This is my second-ever post - I have to tell ya, I'm really enjoying the discussions. Thanks everyone! Salvete, Julie From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 19:05:36 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:05:36 -0000 Subject: LOVE Saves the Day in the end WAS Re Dumbledore's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marianne S." wrote: > Saraquel wrote: please, please post something on how *Love saves >the day* for Harry. > > Marianne S.: curses. > > So.... these are my thoughts about how Love Can Save the Day. > (of course, none of this is canon, or even close, but it is what I >would like to see happen). > > a) The love of Ron, Hermione, and Ginny gets him through facing the > difficult truth of what happened in Godric's Hollow. (I am not > sure who to credit it to, but I loved the reminder that Harry may > not have to remember what happened consciously, but the memory > can be stored in his brain like preserved film from a hidden camera >that he can retrieve and observe, like an outsider, in a pensieve. I >also agree that's not a trip he should take alone.) > However, with all the horcruxes gone, > someone (perhaps we'll really see the extent of Ginny's power here, > or it could be something cleverly devised by Hermione or even > Snape) will develop some way of having wands join together to > create some sort of Ultra Patronus. This would be something that > uses thecombined love of everybody present and everyone who > has ever loved Harry, and will be the thing that defeats Voldemort. > > Marianne S. MizStorge now: But first, here's a quote from the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview: JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again. I like the giant Patronus! Possibly Ginny, with her inherited talents, and Hermione's research between them will come up with something! Romantic love and friendship to the rescue. Lynette From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 19:29:58 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:29:58 -0000 Subject: Unicorn hair wands and Ollivander the Legilimens (Was: Neville's new wand/unicor In-Reply-To: <105.66a5e540.302b1528@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137181 Ehren wrote: > Do we know of anyone else that has unicorn hair in their that has > died or is still alive? Melissa responded: > Hmm If I am remembering correctly Ron's first wand. . the one that was handed down from Charlie and that was broken during the Whomping Willow encounter also had unicorn hair. . (I think it was poking out of it) and so far Charlie's still alive. Carol adds: You're correct about both the wand and Charlie being still alive at the end of HBP. (Of course the hands on Mrs. Weasley's clock are all pointing to mortal peril, and given Charlie's profession, he could easily be the first Weasley to actually die--as opposed to the close calls experienced by Ginny, Arthur, and Bill. Mrs. Weasley's boggart will almost certainly not be an empty fear.) I don't think, however, that unicorn hair wand cores are an indicator of who is going to die in the HP books. Remember that Ollivander, the best wandmaker in Britain and the one from whom most Hogwarts students buy their first wands, uses only three "powerful magical substances" as cores in his wands. (He doesn't use Veela hair, for one thing.) At least one-third of the wands he sells would have unicorn hair cores, the remainder being either phoenix feathers (surely extremely rare) or dragon heart strings. Surely so large a segment of the witches and wizards who attended Hogwarts is not doomed to die simply because the unicorn hair wands chose them ("the wand chooses the wizard"), nor has Ollivander (even if he's ESE!) doomed one-third of the WW to die as innocent victims of Voldemort by selling them unicorn hair wands. But perhaps there is some common character trait shared by Charlie (whom we barely know), Ron, Neville, and Cedric that would cause a unicorn hair wand to be attracted to them. It could relate to the level of power that the wand senses or to the affinity for a particular branch of magic. James's (first?) wand, we're told in SS/PS, was a bit more powerful than Lily's and showed an affinity for Transfiguration (shown to be true when we learn in PoA that James was an Animagus), but Lily's aptitude is said to be for Charms, which does not fit at all with Slughorn's sentimental memories of Lily as a skilled Potions maker in HBP. (I still think there's more to Lily's self-sacrifice than meets the eye and that it relates to her skill at Charms, foreshadowed by Ollivander's remarks very early in the series.) At any rate, I think we have to posit moral neutrality in both the wand itself (to the extent that it's a sentient object) and in the maker (Ollivander). To create and sell unicorn hair wands to students who show an affinity for them (or vice versa) is not to doom the student to an early death at the hands of Voldemort or his Death Eaters. (The twelve Muggles PP killed were innocent victims, and none of them had wands of any kind.) But while we're at it, why would Fawkes's feather choose Tom Riddle when Fawkes is associated with Dumbledore, the antithesis of Voldemort? The only connection I can see is Tom's strong desire for immortality (also suggested by the yew wood, as discussed in several earlier threads), along with the previously mentioned attraction of a powerful wand to a powerful wizard. As for Ollivander, whose disappearance is noted early in HBP, we will undoubtedly see more of him in Book 7. While it appears that he's been kidnapped by the DEs, I think he's another of Dumbledore's protected persons and that he's being hidden by the Order. I also think he's the first Legilimens we encounter in the HP books (he knows that Hagrid has hidden the pieces of his wand in his umbrella), and the only one now in a position to help Harry retrieve his own memories and place them in a Pensieve. Few wizards have that skill--certainly not Harry--and DD can no longer do it. Nor is Snape, whether he is good or evil, in a position to help Harry explore his past. Ollivander is both powerful and intelligent, and he seems to have had some sort of understanding with Dumbledore regarding the Fawkes-feather wands, not to mention those disconcerting silvery eyes that seem to see right through you. If anyone can help Harry retrieve his own memories and discover the truth about Godric's Hollow, it's Ollivander. Carol From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 10 19:32:52 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:32:52 -0000 Subject: Does Snape hate Dumbledore? WAS: Re: Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137182 Alla: > Hmmm, we certainly saw signs in PoA that Snape resents Dumbledore, > IMO. You know " his only hope is that Dumbledore would not > interfere", " you have not forgotten Headmaster that he tried to >kill ME" and "my memory is as good as ever" houyhnhnm: This as good a place as any, I think, to confess my theory about Snape, Dumbledore, and father-love. Snape's mastery of occlumency is based in large part on the fact that he is a feeling arranger of the first water. He has no friends at Hogwarts. He always addresses his colleagues by their titles (except when he is PO'ed and calls them by their last names only) He calls Dumbledore "Headmaster". He never stays for supper at Grimmauld Place. He cultivates (yes, I believe it is calculated and deliberate) a mutual hatred between himself and Harry. In short, he makes sure that he *has* no feelings which he would need to hide from Voldemort. His relationship with Dumbledore is no exception. Snape *does* feel resentment toward Dumbledore. His is a nature which cherishes resentments--his culpability. He also respects him as a wizard and is dutiful towards him as an employer. These are feelings which he does not need to hide from Voldemort. ("Dumbledore has been a great wizard ... the Dark Lord acknowledges it") But, I believe that, unknown to himself, Snape has another feeling towards Dumbledore. The evidence for this is indirect. We know that Snape is subtle. His mind is a "complex and many-layered thing". He is an intellectual. He lives in a house full of books. Voldemort, on the other hand, is "crude". He's a braggart. His Death Eaters, far from exemplifying purity and ennobling the name of Wizard, are nothing more than a band of thugs, just like the Marauders only worse. I think this plays a large part in causing Snape to turn away from Voldemort and towards Dumbledore. And this is how it goes for 14 odd years. But underneath, all along, is the desire to love and be loved by Dumbledore as a father. Even back when Snape was a student at Hogwarts there must have been something which caused him to promise to keep Lupin's secret when he himself was the injured party. Snape represses this feeling, as he represses all other feelings, until the last year. From the time Dumbledore flees from Fudge, he becomes increasingly dependent on Snape, until, finally Snape's ministrations save his life. I believe it is at this time, when he is nursing Dumbledore back to health, that Snape's defense mechanisms fail. He realizes that he loves Dumbledore, Voldemort extracts that realization, and the trap is sprung. From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 19:33:44 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:33:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Faked death or faked AK? (Was: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137183 Carol said: . . . . Dumbledore, we must remember, was already dying from the Horcrux poison. Snape had no time or opportunity to cure him, whether he wished to or not. Sherry now: Actually, we don't know for sure that Dumbledore is dying from the potion. He was weak and unconscious at first, but he gathered strength enough to use the spell to fight off the infiri--spelling?--and I felt he was getting better throughout the rest of the time he was alive. He may have been ill and weak, as was seen by him slipping down the tower, but we do not know for sure that he was dying or that he could not have been cured. I think that's important to remember, because whatever Snape's motives, we don't know what would have happened to Dumbledore if Snape hadn't murdered him. Carol Said: More important, I think, Harry comes to terms with death in the funeral chapter, understanding at last that death is not the worst thing that can happen, that death is the next great adventure. He was not given the opportunity to say goodbye to Sirius, but seeing Dumbledore honored by everyone from the centaurs to the merpeople (and hearing the glittering generalities by the man in black who seems to be the WW equivalent of a minister minus the religious implications) gives Harry the opportunity to remember Dumbledore as he really was. Twice he smiles or laughs unexpectedly, remembering Dumbledore's eccentric sense of humor. Harry *must* move on. He can no longer be dependent on a mentor. He has to be essentially alone (except for Ron and Hermione and eventually without even them) to confront Voldemort, facing the very real possibility of his own death without fear or hesitation, and he must understand what death is and is not in order to do so. And the fearlessness that results from hatred and the desire for vengeance will not do if his secret weapon is Love. Sherry now: i agree with you about Harry being able to move on after the funeral. It helps to have that ceremony--I won't call it closure--but it is a way to grieve, to smile and laugh even and to remember the one who has gone. It helps to start the natural process of grieving and recovery. I thought it was a beautiful moment and felt Harry's reactions were very real. Carol Said: However, I absolutely agree that Dumbledore's death is not what it seems. I am certain that he's truly dead (and so is Sirius, as JKR reitierates in the funeral chapter) and that he will not return as a ghost (since he's not afraid to face what lies beyond) or as a phoenix (Fawkes, the only phoenix we know, is a bird, not an animagus, and he is not Dumbledore). *But* it is highly probable that he did not die from an Avada Kedavra, as Harry (who judges by appearances) thinks he does. As you say, Snape is an expert at casting nonverbal spells, and if anyone has the mind control to disguise another spell as an Avada Kedavra, it's the Occlumen/Legilimens/potions and DADA genius Severus Snape. Also, as you say, Dumbledore's eyes are closed and he does not wear a surprised expression (like Cedric and the dead Riddles, all of them killed by unquestionable AKs). Dead Dumbledore looks remarkably like Portrait!Dumbledore, peacefully asleep. Again, as you say, the spell Snape casts does not act like an Avada Kedavra. There is no rushing sound, no flash of blinding light. When Cedric dies, Harry feels ill and can't see. Nothing of the sort happens when Dumbledore is hit by Snape's spell--only a green light (fake Avada Kedavra?) and DD "blasted" into the air and falling backward limply like a rag doll, rather than falling to the floor, instantly dead. Harry is not immediately released from the freezing spell when Snape's supposed AK hits DD in the chest. There is time enough for DD to fall from the tower, close his eyes and compose his mind, and strike the ground. Sherry now: I don't take the lack of a surprised look to mean the spell wasn't an AK. After all, Dumbledore had time to know it was going to happen. He wasn't surprised anymore. Even if your theory is correct, that it is some kind of plan between Snape and Dumbledore, Dumbledore was not surprised. So, no matter who is correct, those like me who think Snape committed murder that night, or those like you who believe that isn't exactly the case, I don't find the lack of surprise to be a compelling argument strong enough to make me think twice about the situation on the tower. Carol said: The question for me is not whether Dumbledore is dead (I'm sure he is), but why and how Snape killed him. Yes, he had no choice but to kill Dumbledore or break his vow and allow Draco to be killed; kill Dumbledore (who was dying anyway and could not be saved) or die himself (which from Snape's perspective might well be the lesser of two evils, the coward's way out). But there is more going on, as we know from that last look exchanged between the two Legilimens. We don't know--only Snape and JKR know--what passed between Snape and the dying mentor who had loved and trusted him. Sherry now: Again, we don't know if Dumbledore was dying, terminal and unable to be cured by the potion. Snape, in my opinion, did indeed take the coward's way out, if nothing else. as Sirius would have said, he should have died, rather than betray the one who had so loved and trusted him. The fact that he chose to live and to murder Dumbledore instead, makes him evil all the way to me. Carol Said: Things are not as they seem. This is not ESE!Snape casting an AK at the hated Dumbledore (when have we seen any indication that he hated Dumbledore) and unconcernedly carrying out a long-cherished desire to murder him for "glory" and power. This is Snape, careful and inscrutable as ever until the moment when his (self?)hatred and revulsion (at the deed he must do?) are revealed on his face: Snape, the actor. Snape, the double or triple agent whose loyalties still remain in question. There is nothing black and white or obvious about it, unless, like Harry, we see through the eyes of prejudice and hatred. Sherry now: i guess I see through the eyes of prejudice and hatred then. Though in my own defense, i tried, until that moment to believe in mean but still good Snape. Dumbledore trusted him, so he must have been good. I was shocked and horrified by the events on the tower, even though I didn't ever like Snape. i still didn't want him to be ESE. But for me, there's never an excuse to commit murder, coldly, casually, kill the one person who trusted you. We don't know if Snape hated Dumbledore or not. We were led to believe in his change of heart because of Dumbledore, and we have no way of knowing what he has been truly feeling all these years. i just know that if someone walked up and without hesitation shot a loved one of mine, I'd never be convinced of the rightness or nobility or courage of such an act, no matter what the excuse. Harry is completely justified in his feelings, in my opinion. Carol said: Harry himself is now sidetracked from his destined task of defeating and destroying Lord Voldemort by a personal hatred and desire for vengeance. But as Snape tells him (in his characteristically sarcastic and arrogant way), Harry must not use the Unforgiveable Curses. He must not let hatred and vengeance conquer him. He must not take the path that Snape himself took as a youth, wherever his loyalties now lie. He must not be tempted by the Dark Arts. He must remain pure, and to do that, he must close his mind to anger and hatred and the desire for vengeance. Love, not hatred, will conquer Voldemort. And Snape, I think, knows this and is trying to convey this message to Harry, not only in their confrontation near the end of HBPbut through the faked AK. It's the final lesson that Harry must learn before he destroys the Horcruxes and defeats Voldemort: Appearances can be and often are deceiving. Dumbledore was right to trust Severus Snape. Carol Sherry now: And of course, I see it a totally different way. In fact, I find the treachery of Snape to be one of JKR's more brilliant twists. It's evident in the way so many people are coming up with theories and ideas to prove that it can't be so. I admire her so much because of this. However it turns out, she has done something amazing through the death of Dumbledore by Snape. As for Snape trying to teach Harry at the end, including by the non AK that killed Dumbledore, I would have thought Snape was smarter than that. Again, as I have asked before among others who have asked the same thing, if this was a plan between Dumbledore and Snape, why oh why didn't they tell Harry in advance? That was poor planning in the extreme, and I'd have thought both men were more intelligent than that to leave such an important detail out of things. With the history of hatred between Snape and Harry, it was ridiculous to plot this thing and then leave Harry to believe what he believes. And even if it wasn't a true AK, the fact still stands, that unless someone else secretly pulled it off, Snape murdered Dumbledore. No, Snape is not and maybe never was Dumbledore's man, and Dumbledore, who admits to being able to make huge mistakes, made the biggest one of his life by trusting Snape. just my opinion, of course. Sherry From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 19:42:08 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:42:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...> wrote: > Pat wrote: > responding to both uilnslcoap and Marianne S: > I'm trying to show the elves that I've learned the rules, and will > not post again what I have already posted. All the things you both > questioned have already been addressed in three other threads: > SHIP: Pirate Ginny > SHIP: H/G Indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny > SHIP: Emma, twists, and HBP > > If you want to read those, I'd be happy to discuss new territory > after that. > > Pat Max responds: Thanks for the links Pat. You certainly have an interesting theory, I'll give you that. There are just too many holes though as far as I can see. Your main premise, correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be that Ginny is knowingly or unknowingly wearing love potion perfume to attract the attention of the opposite sex. So for Harry, the perfume only works when Ginny is in/or has been recently in close proximity. In this way, it is different from the love potion that one ingests. The ingestee would not need to be in proximity for the potion to take effect - ie Ron eating Romilda's tainted Chocolate. I have only one example so far, but I'm sure I can come up with more. Our first hint that Harry might be feeling attracted to Ginny is in Chap 7, The Slug Club. He asks Ginny to sit with him on the train and feels a "strange twinge of annoyance" when she tells him she's going to sit with Dean. Now either Harry is feeling a bit jealous of Dean or this is the first example of Ginny's LP perfume taking effect. The problem is only minutes later, Ginny and Harry are once again in close proximity in Slughorn's train compartment and Harry shows no sign of being 'oddly attracted' to Ginny. In fact, Ginny is surrounded by five boys, and none of them show any signs of giving her any more attention than would be expected. Surely if she were wearing LP perfume we should expect to see some sort of odd behavior from the boys but we don't. In fact when Harry and Ginny are talking after leaving Slughorn, Harry's thoughts are almost completely focused on Draco and finding out more about his mysterious activities. Not the behavior of a boy one would expect to see when in such close proximity to LP perfume, if you ask me. Max From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 19:42:28 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:42:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004401c59de3$a89f33f0$6521f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137185 > Guru opines: > I've been thinking about another interpretation of Snape's actions from the > start. > > Suppose Snape realizes that LV has to be stopped and the Harry is the only one > who can do it. He also realizes that having been brought up by Muggles, Harry > is starting out behind. Add to that the fact that a number of the faculty give > Harry special treatment and Old Sev decides he has to become Drill Instructor > Snape (DI!Snape to you). Think R. Lee Ermey or Louis Gossett Jr. in black robes > and a taller hat. He's going to whip the kid into shape no matter what what > and doesn't care if Harry hates him in the process. Julie now: Ha, Guru, you've hit my take on this! The best way to toughen someone up is to be tough with them. I agree with your DI!Snape theory, also because of the way in which Alan Rickman portrayed him. JKR did admit, after all, that she had to give a few Snape secrets to Rickman in order to help him in his portrayal. The Snape-between-werewolf-and- children scene is one example. Anyway - aren't army soldiers made tough through physical hardship and mental "banging"? One Occlumency lesson line that really says it goes something like this (sorry - no book in hand): "You do not even try - then you will be easy prey for the Dark Lord, Potter!" Argh, I can't remember the exact wording - but it really sounded like "I have no vested interest in doing this to you, but I'm doing it with ridiculous ease; imagine what someone *really* nasty could do to you!" Yep - that DI!Snape thing really does it for me. Is Snape ESE? Is he carrying out some cleverly-twisted Dumbledorian plan? Is helping Harry a good way to get rid of LV for Snape? I don't know. But whatever the reason, he's shaking Harry into building up mental and emotional defenses. Sherry now: I'm sorry, but Harry was *not* a soldier when he first met Snape. He was an eleven year old boy! And Snape began right from the start to pick on him, even before there was any evidence that other teachers might treat him in a special manner. Besides, we also have Snape's completely emotionally abusive treatment of other students, such as Neville, to show his true nature. Maybe, a kid like Harry who has good self esteem in many ways, can handle Snape with a healthy dose of hatred, but Neville is not like that. and Snape makes it clear repeatedly that he hated Harry's father and considers him to be just like James. i think McGonigal is the tough love type of teacher, but Snape is just abusive and evil. Sherry From bjebenstreit at aol.com Wed Aug 10 19:42:31 2005 From: bjebenstreit at aol.com (bjebenstreit at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:42:31 EDT Subject: rape was Love Potions Message-ID: <1e6.419729b9.302bb2a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137186 > Susan McGee wrote: > "But in the HP universe, I don't think a love potion can actually be > characterized as a rape drug...." > > Del replies: > I think that's EXACTLY what they are. They have ALL the > characteristics of the RL date rape drugs, except one: > > * They are undetectable once slipped into food or drink. > > * They are fast-acting. > > * They make the victim act in a promiscuous way. > > * They render the victim unable to assert themselves, to make > appropriate decisions, to act as they would choose to act without the > influence of the drug. > > The only difference is that RL victims often have little or no > memories of what happened, so they are spared the additional > humiliation of remembering how they "lost it". WW victims apparently > do remember what happened (see the look of horror on Ron's face, and > the vague explanations of Tom Riddle about having been duped). > > Susan McGee wrote: > "Rape is a crime of violence, not sex. It involves forcing someone > else to have sex, or sexual contact... It involves degrading, > humiliating, and exerting power over the other person." > > Del replies: > Ron was very much degraded and humiliated by Romilda's Love Potion, > she very much exercised power over him. > Ethanol: I think that there are different kind of love potions, with varying strength. Why should there not be? After all, liquor also comes in low and high concentrations. No matter wether the twins are careless or not, I don't think the ministry of magic would allow the sale of "love potions" that could - when used correctly - make a person so willingless that he or she could be raped. With rape I mean here a very wide definition of the term, including *all* sexual activities that at least one of the participants would not have agreed to, if he/she had not been under the influence of the potion. The important point is: when used correctly. Romilda Vane's potion was tempered in two ways that a love potion of the strength sold by Fred and George probably should not be subjected to. First: it was hidden in the chocolate cauldrons and it is possible that the contents of the potion reacted in some way with the ingredients of the chocolate. Second and more importantly: it was consumed *way* after its intended due date. Now we know from Slughorn that a love potion can produce side effects when it becomes too old, for example getting stronger. So I assume that Ron's reaction in HBP was much stronger than Romilda Vane intended. I don't think that if the twin's love potion had been used correctly it could be used for rape - otherwise the ministry would not allow them to sell it to minors and they'd run the risk of being forced to close, if nothig else. The "love potion" Merope used however, I'd assume was of a much stronger calibre. Even *she* became guilty of giving it to Tom Riddle senior, again and again and again. Rowling uses Ron in HBP for some comic relief, but I think she also does it to show how dangerous a love potion can be. Greetings, Ethanol [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 19:48:05 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:48:05 -0000 Subject: Faked death or faked AK? (Was: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book) In-Reply-To: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137187 > Carol said: > > . . . . Dumbledore, we must remember, was already dying from the > Horcrux poison. Snape had no time or opportunity to cure him, whether > he wished to or not. > > Sherry now: > > Actually, we don't know for sure that Dumbledore is dying from the potion. Alla: Yes, I also curious since when "DD dying on the tower" became a fact? What I saw on the Tower was a wounded leader of the Order, who may be hurt, but who neverless was making contingency plans for Draco and pretty much was including himself as the one who will carry out those plans. > Sherry now: > > And of course, I see it a totally different way. In fact, I find the > treachery of Snape to be one of JKR's more brilliant twists. Alla: Yes, me too. You know, I was ( just as many others, I am sure) predicting that Snape would seem to betray the Order at the end, but I never went further than thinking that it would be imaginary betrayal. For example - Harry would be TOLD that Snape did something bad, but would not have actually witnessed it, or something like that. At the same time, I am absolutely delighted that JKR upped the scales of the darkness within Snape, so to speak. To me it confirmed another one of my suspicions that Snape had never truly left his DE mentality behind and what he did to Harry and Neville gave us glimpses of his true nature. Again, I would not say that I ever expected anything like that to happen, but I do find it to be a brilliant twist. Just my opinion, Alla From andrew101101 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 19:08:48 2005 From: andrew101101 at hotmail.com (hyogoetophile) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:08:48 -0000 Subject: Why protect the Malfoys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137188 The Malfoys are in a position where they could destabilize Voldemort's alliances, if not destroy some, many, or all of them. When Voldemort returns in GoF it is said that those in the DE circle looked as if they loathed to return him, but didn't dare not. In CoS, he focuses on Muggle-borns, but then ignores "Salazar Slytherin's noble work" and focuses on Harry. I wonder how many pureblood extremists would agree with his actions; or how many would like the fact that their leader is a half-blood (if that is indeed true). There is plenty of evidence in the HP books and from the stereotypes surrounding a relationship between an evil mastermind and his minions to support the idea that one good kick in the DE structure could bring the whole thing down. Lucius, who we saw furthering his own agenda in CoS, is probably using his ample free-time at Azkaban to consider his options. And he is certainly a power unto himself. He would be able to do a switcheroo, and bring his family with him. Narcissa defied Lord Voldemort to offer her son some protection. She will apparently do anything to keep her son (and/or husband?) safe. If Lucius or Draco jump ship, you can be sure she will also. Draco has also shown himself to be very capable, in the right situation. He only succeeded in getting DEs into Hogwarts because he was allowed to, but he did come up with the ingenious plan. So each member of the Malfoy, a name which I would wager carries a lot of weight among Slytherins and especially pureblood extremists, family is probably going to be taking some heat from Voldemort. And the Malfoy family, even in part, is brave and intelligent enough to break apart from Voldemort's side. I think Draco was offered safety because yes, Dumbledore (although that was not Dumbledore on the tower) is that kind of person. But also, because the Malfoy family could be very instrumental in forming a third side, that, even if it doesn't lend support to Dumbledore/Harry & Friends/Snape/The Order, might at least draw some away from Voldemort. Andrew. From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 10 20:28:42 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:28:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FA637A.3070000@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137189 spotsgal wrote: > Christina: > I agree that Snape is particularly ashamed of calling Lily a > "Mudblood," but I don't see why he would be so careful about hiding it > from Harry. I really don't think Harry would be all that shocked to > hear "Mudblood" come from Snape's mouth, and he already dislikes Snape > so much already that I doubt that the knowledge that he called his mom > dirty names would have significantly increased that hatred. Also, > Harry doesn't seem that bothered by it afterwards, fixating instead on > James (as he always does). Christina Kathy writes: Good point, but I am looking at it from Snape's POV. If it is something that he feels puts him in a worse light than he is prepared to live with, I think he would remove it. Also, if he felt for some reason that it gave any indication that he and Lily had been friends, he may have felt that he needed to remove it. I don't think he cares what Harry thinks, but something about that memory needed to be removed. I don't recall if it was your post, but the idea that there is something about that memory needed to be hidden from the Harry/Voldemort connection was a valid one. We perhaps just disagree on the reason. KJ > Christina: > I think he does. When Snape pushes Harry out of his head, he's white > and shaking. Harry even remarks on the "loathing in his eyes." Snape > isn't physically hurting Harry like he does later on, but he's > definitely *not* pleased. Also, in pushing Harry out of his head, his > "ENOUGH!" is in all caps, which Snape doesn't often revert to (he does > in the "Don't call me coward" line and at the end of PoA, both times > when he was extremely angry/upset) Christina Kathy writes: I think that it was difficult for him and probably painful for such a hidden repressed individual. It was immediately followed by "Well Potter...that was certainly an improvement." That has got to be the first real praise that Harry has ever had from Snape. After the first lesson, the best he got was "Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been." It's almost as though Snape forgets to be completely miserable when he is actually teaching and forgets to teach when he is being actively miserable. KJ > Christina: > Well, we don't really know how Snape acts when he's nervous or afraid, > because to be honest, I can't think of a single instance where he's > described that way (in any of the books). When Snape realizes that > Harry has seen the DoM, Snape stands over Harry, "looking furious," > and Harry remarks that "Snape seemed even angrier than he had done two > minutes before, when Harry had seen into his own memories." I would > buy that scared!Snape manifests itself as angry!Snape, but why is > Snape scared? Because he realizes that LV can put thoughts in Harry's > head? Because he realizes that LV saw the thoughts that Harry broke > into? Because he is angry that Harry isn't putting any effort into > Occlumency? Also, just to note, Snape doesn't know that Harry dreamt > of Voldemort talking to the Death Eater. Ron witnesses it and they > tell Hermione the next day, but Harry never mentions it to Snape. Christina Kathy writes: In the first lesson, Snape is described as speaking slowly and deliberately as though he weighed every word. He snarls at Harry for speaking Voldemort's name and unconsciously rubs his left forearm. When Harry asks about the Dept of Mysteries, Snape is described as unnerved and when Harry again said Voldemort's name, Snape was described as agitated. He immediately broke off the lesson. Considering the fact that Snape had just admitted that finding out what Voldemort was saying to his Death Eaters was his job, I find that his paleness and shaking was more a result of fear than of anger. It was after this, that he then checked his penseive "as though checking that his thoughts were still there" and praised Harry for his success. He didn't become furious until Harry again allowed visions of the Ministry into his head. I think that this Occlumency stuff is giving Snape fits. Snape seems to express both fear and frustration as anger. KJ > Christina: > I see what you're saying, but the major immediate revelation of > "Snape's Worst Memory" *is* about the Marauders- it's that > Marauders:Snape is NOT Trio:Malfoy, like I think Harry (and most of > the readers) previously assumed. And Snape *always* harps on James. > Considering the fact that the last thing Harry sees when he gets > pulled out of the pensieve is James threatening to take off Snape's > pants (and that Snape takes every opportunity to talk badly about > James), I think it's natural that Snape's only comment about the > memory is about James. Christina Kathy writes: You are of course quite correct except for what appears to be blank surprise on Lily's part at being called a mudblood. Herminone by fifth year expects nothing else from Malfoy. Unless Lily considered Snape to be a friend, why would she be so surprised? If Snape was really ESE at that time in his life, why would he choose to hide that memory. I don't think he wanted to protect Harry from knowing what his father was like, and I don't think he wanted to hide his hatred of the Marauders from Voldemort, so that only leaves something about Lily. KJ > Christina: > Is there ever any mention of Lily? We go five whole books before > anyone really says anything about who she was. Harry always focuses > on his father. He asks Sirius and Lupin about James because his > behavior in the pensieve is in contrast with the way Harry had > previously thought James acted. Lily's behavior probably didn't seem > that odd to him, or his thoughts on his father overshadowed those on > his mother (as they usually do). Harry has occasionally shown > curiousity about his father, but he has never asked about his mom. > Harry's lack of curiousity about his mother has always seemed odd to > me- and just where are all of *Lily's* friends? JKR has even said > that she was a popular girl, but so far only Slughorn has ever > commented on her. Christina Kathy writes: Those are all very valid questions. In a lot of ways, we are encouraged away from interest in Lily. Lily gave her life for Harry and yet he is more curious about his father. It is Lily's protection that has kept him alive to this point and yet he does not question anyone about his mother. Dumbledore gives Harry his father's cloak, does he have nothing of Lily's? Snape immediately brings up James after the penseive incident. Harry's Patronus is based on his father. Harry knows Hagrid was at the school while the Marauder's, Snape, and Lily were there. Does he ever think to ask any questions? JKR in the way she writes all this is continually directing us away from Lily, other than remarks about her eyes. KJ From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Wed Aug 10 21:01:05 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:01:05 -0000 Subject: Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137190 I find this discussion very interesting and thought I will post some of my thoughts. I don't quote cause there would be too much text so I'll just focus on what I want to add to the discussion :D Snape's Worst Memory was something that bothered me for a long time. And there were many reasons for that. I think that this chapter not only tells us much about James Potter but also about Snape - but not in the direct way... Since we know that there were more that one memory in the pensive when Harry entered SWM i should ask myself how did it happen that Harry saw that particular memory? Is it in someway connected to the fact that he touched the surface of it with his wand? (He did it too when he entered one of DD's memories in GoF) I was wondering if Harry touching it with his wand has somehow determinated which memory he entered?? If it's true we can assume that SWM was a memory that somehow concerned Harry (either his person or the situation he was in, the things which were on his mind in that particular moment) Maybe when his wand touched the surface, the pensive 'chose' 'the best' memory to show him? In that case what does it tell us about that memory? and the other two? Another thing: was it really one of SS worst memories? I tend to think that it was put there for totally different reason than Harry thought. You've written before that the fight between Marauders and Snape wasn't something special, and I agree. But then why did this particular memory happen to be there? Is it because it shows 15- yeras-old James Potter bullying Severus Snape in a VERY nasty was (along with hexing him and calling him names)? Or is it because of Lily Evans presence? I'm not much of LE/SS shippper but I find it rather interesting... Maybe Snape didnt want to show this memory to anyone cause there was a Mudblood helping him? THE Mudblood. You were saying that Snape was hiding his memories from Voldemort. It's possible that someone other than Harry could have seen more to this memory than Potter... I mean, knowing the context or other important things that might happened later would allow for example Voldemort to gain some very valueable knowledge about Snape... Back to Lily's case... Maybe it was too painful for SS, assuming he developed some feelings for her later (or already felt something at that ponit?) It's quite interesting in fact... especially if you take into consideration JKR's words from Mugglenet/TLC interview which indicate that there probably was somebody at GH.. Of course we didn't see the whole memory so maybe the worst part (which was the reason for SS to put it in the Pensive) was about James Potter taking off SS's pants? ;) It might be good reason for hide this memory from everybody but it's hard for me to believe that it was one of the 3 worst things that ever happened to Snape throughout his whole life... Next thing is about James and Snape using nonverbal spells. It shows how advanced in magic they both were... it seems almost as a competition... James' Levicorpus is quite effective while Snape's hex is probably Sectusempra at the stage of developing and it doesn't have a big effect yet... You were talking about Snape loosing control... I find it theory really possible in fact but still can't understand why it was so important for Snape to hide it from Harry or Voldemort. I mean, his behaviour, though didn'r resamble cool attitude of adult Snape, wasn't surprising at all... But then again, maybe to someone who knows much more about the situation this scene would be highly interesting... IMO that memory MEANS something to Snape. It's very important to him probably because of personal reasons... In that case only SS knows what it's really all about... From Harry's perspective it may not be so clear and if this memory is of emotional value to Snape it might be hardly possible for us to decifer the realy meaning of it. I think it triggers something in him, emotions or other memories... I think they probably concern Lily. (It's like when we would see Harry's memory of the day when he sees Ginny for the first time after he smelled thta love potion in Slughorn classroom... We wouldn't know why it's important for harry but if we knew the context it would all became clear/ IMO similar situation is with SWM...) But then, the reaction of Snape also tells us something... He focus on James behaviour as though the fact of bullying him was making this memory so important. If this is true then i think we should pity Snape... He's a grown man who can't forget his traumatic schooldays and considers them as more important parts of his past that his present 'job' as a double spy or the years spent in presence of Voldemort... What do you think? Julia, who wants to know wheather Lily helped Severus because she liked him or because she hated James... From prep0strus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 21:14:19 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:14:19 -0000 Subject: Marriage at Hogwarts & inthe WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137191 Thinking about all the relationships that get discussed, it's interesting to note how few 'adult' relationships we get to see. Molly & Arthur's marriage is the only one we get to see in any detail in the wizarding world (which probably influences the aggressive discussions about shipping, and marriage, since the only real comparison we have is the Weasely family). We hear about other student's parents, and get to see a little bit of the Malfoys' personal life, but in general, marriage (and even rlationships) seem to remain hidden in JKR's world. This is especially visible at Hogwarts - I don't see why spouses couldn't live/work at the school, considering Dumbledore's magnanimous attitude, but as far ass we've seen, everyone that works there chooses the single life. I don't think we've seen Mr. McGonnagal at the Christmas feast, or Mrs. Flitwick stopping by, or Snape heading out for a date (ich). And our esteemed champion of love, Dumbledore, appears to take the view of a general, rather than personal love (perhaps indicating that Ginny won't be the main source of Harry's prime strength). Dumbledore comes off even more 'jedi-like', since we've never heard of Mrs. Dumbledore. Hagrid alone of the Hogwarts teachers, who is more like an overgrown child than an authority figure, is involved in a relationship. Outside the castle, Lupin & Tonks have the other 'adult' relationship. What makes the life of a professor so hard that they all choose the single life? Hogwarts is a big happy family, but it still seems lonely to me. ~Prep0strus From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Wed Aug 10 21:18:39 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:18:39 -0000 Subject: Why protect the Malfoys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137192 Andrew wrote: > The Malfoys are in a position where they could destabilize > Voldemort's alliances, if not destroy some, many, or all of them. > When Voldemort returns in GoF it is said that those in the DE circle > looked as if they loathed to return him, but didn't dare not. There is plenty of evidence in the HP books and from the > stereotypes surrounding a relationship between an evil mastermind > and his minions to support the idea that one good kick in the DE > structure could bring the whole thing down. > Narcissa defied Lord Voldemort to offer her son some protection. She > will apparently do anything to keep her son (and/or husband?) safe. Julia: I think that you're right. The DE's are very fragile group mainly because they're fooled by their master (purebloods/mudbloods/halfbloods)but also because they're gainig hardly nothing from cooperating with Voldemort. He isn't the type of person who helps his friends when they have problems or anything like that... Nracissa behaviour was really interesting, especially what she said about Draco being ready to serve Dark Lord. She says that it's only because he is 16 and doesn't know what being a DE mean... We were given an insight to thoughts of one of Voldemort followers... they feel like they're in some kind of trap and many of them are trying desperatly to save others from that hell... Is it a sign that there are more like Snape (if he is on a good side!) among DE? If yes what does it mean for Snape? Is he going to recruit them in some way? Is he going to form an oposition to Voldemort? Maybe that would mean that the theories about Snape being on neither Voldemort's nor DD's side true? any thoughts? Julia From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 21:18:51 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:18:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: <1123530877.1464.99554.m22@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123530877.1464.99554.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05081014182498af37@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137193 Diane C wrote: > Just for arguments sake, what if Percy has been > working as a spy for Dumbledore. :::snip:::: ============== Lisa responds: JKR was asked in an interview after OotP was released whether Percy was acting under his own volition during the Book, and JKR's reply was along the lines of "unfortunately so." So, if he was spying for Dumbledore, he'd've been doing Dumbledore's bidding; if he was acting on behalf of the Ministry, he'd've been doing the Ministry's bidding. IMO, Percy is the proverbial black sheep of the Weasley family -- so ironic that he was set up to be Golden Boy. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 14:54:58 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:54:58 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137194 I really can't imagine Neville betraying Harry. He kept his DA coin for a whole year while the group didn't even meet. I think Neville has a very noble spirit, keen to live up to his picky grandmother's expectations. I think if he had the chance, he'd die for Harry or the cause...he understands how important Harry is...probably from listening to his grandmother. As to the wand thing...I dug this up on the 'net. It says flower and tree meanings, so who knows. JK has traditionally gone with the celtic system, but I looked and nowhere does it talk about cherry. So, that is very unique in and of itself. Maybe Ollivander doesn't use this type of wood anymore? I had read another post suggesting that the wand in Ollivander's shop on a pillow (from SS) was Ravenclaws and that was the last horcrux. What if Ollivander sold this particular wand to Neville? It would be strange that Ravenclaw's wand would choose Neville, but interesting. Maybe Ollivander knew that the DE were coming for him and he decided to get rid of one of the more powerful wands in his store? Anyway, here's the link to the flower meanings. www.dotflowers.com/a-c-language-and-meanings-of-flowers.html It is interesting to note that it does say that white cherry means deception. But the other meaning is "good education." This seems to interesting to ignore. Oh, and about Charlie having a unicorn hair wand originally and Ron having a new one now, I'm pretty sure that Charlie is the only one that Mrs. Weasly's boggart DOESN'T turn into. She doesn't fear him dying? Why not? Does this mean maybe Charlie's death hasn't even crossed her mind? Is JK giving us a hint? We don't know what kind of wand Charlie currently has, but what if it is still unicorn hair? That may fit with your theories. Ok, that's it from me. It's truly intriguing to talk about these books in this way. Rachel From tifflblack at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 20:06:54 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:06:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Delayed Test Results In-Reply-To: <818d77fa92fb5d6334d160e2ca211db2@jdbailey.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137195 Jason: Does it bug anyone else that Fred, George and Percy all get the results of their OWLs and NEWTs while still at school, while the trio have to wait until a few weeks before classes to get their results? Tiffany: It is a bit inconsistent. Percy got his O.W.L. results in COS the day before Harry came, which would put it about August 2nd or 3rd I think. It seems like they did get their results at the end of POA though while they were still at school. Tiffany From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 21:41:11 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:41:11 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137196 > >>vmonte: > Narcissa is right that Draco is a kid and that he does not know > what he is getting himself into. But the fact is that Draco was > excited to join the DEs--he did out of his own free will. Betsy Hp: I'm going to need canon here. Please prove that Draco *chose* to take on the task of killing Dumbledore, and please prove that he *chose* to become a Death Eater. (Actually, prove Draco is a Death Eater, period.) My request is a little tongue in cheek because I poured through canon (and even quoted bits and pieces of it ) to prove the opposite, so I'm relatively confident you'll find no proof at all. (Though I have been wrong before. Once. Twice? ) > >>Betsy Hp: > >Draco didn't have a choice here at all. JKR makes that very clear, > >IMO. > > > >>vmonte: > I disagree. JKR makes it very clear that WE are responsible for > our own actions. Betsy Hp: I had to go up-thread to see what the heck I was talking about, and I was referring to the moment where Snape grabs Draco and drags him from the tower. (That was in the part snipped.) To my mind it was fairly clear that Draco (the one "seized" and "forced") was, erm... being seized and forced. IOW, he didn't choose for Snape to manhandle him from the tower. Now, maybe you're suggesting that any action a character is forced into is the responsibility of that character, but then I would expect you to place full blame for Voldemort's rebirth on Harry. After all, it was Harry who gave his blood to complete the potion that enabled Voldemort to take human form. > >>Betsy: > > >Third, he makes sure that Dumbledore realizes that he *did not* > >invite Fenrir to the school (which implies to me that Draco, for > >the first time in his life quite possibly, is looking for > >Dumbledore's approval). > >>vmonte: > Draco is a racist pureblood. To Draco it doesn't matter whether it > is Lupin or Fenrir..a werewolf is a werewolf is a werewolf... Betsy Hp: It matters to Dumbledore though. He makes it clear that he is most displeased at Fenrir's presence in his school. And Draco takes pains to tell Dumbledore that he did not invite Fenrir into the school. Since Lupin is not mentioned I think it's pretty safe to say that Draco was answering Dumbledore's query and not making a general comment on werewolves. > >>Betsy Hp: > > > >But Dumbledore said it, and if you think about how Draco > >parallels Harry... > > > vmonte: > Draco does not parallel Harry, he parallels Snape. Betsy Hp: In a piece of literature of any sort of depth, characters generally have more than one parallel. Since JKR has managed to create characters of reasonable complexity they tend to fit into different parallels. You snipped the ways I was paralleling Draco to Harry using canon. But the fact that I was using canon means (to me anyway) that it's not something that can be so easily brushed aside. It's hard to prove a negative, so I won't ask you to cite canon to show that Draco doesn't parallel Harry, but I would suggest you tackle the canon I raised if you want to show that I was mad-dog crazy to suggest there was any parallelism between the two boys at all. I do agree, however, that Draco parallels Snape. I think he also parallels James Potter, Regulus Black and Ron Weasley. It's part of the fun of Draco being a three-dimensional character. :) Betsy Hp From la_dy_di at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 21:30:46 2005 From: la_dy_di at yahoo.com (Diane C) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: <14262fbd05081014182498af37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050810213046.42928.qmail@web51410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137197 Lisa responds: > JKR was asked in an interview after OotP was > released whether Percy was acting under his own volition during > the Book, and JKR's reply was along the lines of "unfortunately > so." He could be spying for Dumbledore by his own volition. And JKR's use of "unfortunately" could be interpreted that it's most unfortunate that Dumbledore even has to have an informant at the Ministry of Magic. I just can't fathom any of the Weasley's being such a turncoat. Plus, his letter to Ron is quite informative of the position the Ministry of Magic is taking on the issue of Harry Potter---quite a valuable piece of information for Dumbledore and Harry to have. Diane C From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Wed Aug 10 21:58:31 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:58:31 -0000 Subject: Does Snape hate Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137198 > Colebiancardi: > > > I don't think Snape resented DD for that. As DD stated about > Snape's > > meltdown at the end of PoA, he suffered a major disappointment. I > > think DD was just telling him he knows....and the fact is we had > huge > > discussions around the *prank* that Sirius pulled on Snape and if > > there was more to it than we know about. > > > > Alla: > > But DD does not even say these words to Snape, he says it to Fudge. I > absolutely do think that a huge resentment could have been born out > of > it. But of course it is just a matter of interpretation. > > In light of JKR saying flat out that DD has no confidantes, I also > doubt that DD EVER informed Snape about what really happened that > night > when Sirius escaped. > > I think that Snape was VERY dissapointed that Dumbledore did not > support him ( I don't want to get into discussion whether Snape had a > right to be dissapointed - he absolutely could have been), but I > think that the fact that DD leaves Snape out of the loop on those > events,may have annoyed him very much. > > Just me speculating obviously, but I believe that there are possible > hints to that in canon. > > Alla. Julia here: I absolutely don't agree with you. I just can't imagine that Snape could have hated DD. He might have been dissapointed at some point or feel very angry but I refuse to believe he developed such an intense negative feeling towards DD, the person, probably the only one, who has ever tried to find good in him, trusted that there was good in Severus Snape. SS is a type of man who respects others and understand that there are greater and wiser than him. I'm sure that while he demands respect from students he surely can respect his headmaster/mentor or whatever... He couldn't have hated Dumbledore because he knew there was no reason for that. I'm sure that even if his loyalities lies on Voldemort side he still know that he simply can't hate Dumbledore. He knows how DD feels about him, he knows he trust him - so he knows that he can't hate him for that.... To Snape, the only reason for hating DD would be his trusting personality, the fact he can be easily fooled and therefore he is weak. I can imagine Snape hating DD for that - but it would be connected with a great love for DD along with caring for him. Something like - I love you so much that it makes me hate you! Julia From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Wed Aug 10 22:15:34 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:15:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Snape, Harry and The Plan Re: Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137199 Sherry: > Again, as I have asked before among others who have asked the same thing, if > this was a plan between Dumbledore and Snape, why oh why didn't they tell > Harry in advance? That was poor planning in the extreme, and I'd have > thought both men were more intelligent than that to leave such an important > detail out of things. With the history of hatred between Snape and Harry, > it was ridiculous to plot this thing and then leave Harry to believe what he > believes. Julia now: It was a great post. Though I myself tend to believe that Snape is good it was really interesting to read some thoughts on this subject from totally opposite POV. As to DD and SS not telling Harry about the plan (if there was one!) I think that it was good not to let Harry know... I mean, we can predict and DD certainly too that Harry wouldn't believe it. He would probably think that Snape tricked DD, used Imperius on him or DD isn't for real and he is just a Polyjuiced DE. I know that Harry will refuse to believe that DD death is something that must happen. He would surely not allow this by plotting against Snape. He lost parents and Sirius he would do anything to save DD. It would be a lot harder for DD and SS to put their plan into action with Harry knowing about it. But of course DD wouldn't want Harry to blame Snape for his death so he would probably arrange for them to meet in his office were he would hang in a portrait and tell him everything... JMO Julia From ejblack at rogers.com Wed Aug 10 22:20:05 2005 From: ejblack at rogers.com (Jeanette) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:20:05 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137200 >> Dead Dumbledore looks remarkably > like Portrait!Dumbledore, peacefully asleep.>> And the portrait is one thing that does puzzle me. IF Dumbledore is dead, then surely his portrait should "wake-up", but it does not. Also when was the portrait made, and by whom? Was it recently, or do the portraits update themselves? Jeanette From littleleah at handbag.com Wed Aug 10 22:22:33 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:22:33 -0000 Subject: Marriage at Hogwarts and in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137201 Prep0strus wrote: >(snipped)...in general, marriage (and even rlationships) seem >to remain hidden in JKR's world. This is especially visible at >Hogwarts - I don't see why spouses couldn't live/work at the school, >considering Dumbledore's magnanimous attitude, but as far ass we've >seen, everyone that works there chooses the single life. In a BBC online chat in 2001, JKR was asked whether any of the Hogwarts professors 'had been married'. She replied that a number had, but that the information 'was sort of restricted' for reasons we would find out. As far as I am aware, we've not been given any information about who is (or was) married, or why that information might not be public knowledge. There have been suggestions on this board that there was a relationship/marriage between DD and Madam Pomfrey, though if that supposition is correct I can not see any reason to have concealed it. I suppose another possibility is that Madam Pince is not Snape's mother, but his wife, but mother seems to fit in best with the canon so far. Leah From nawyecka at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 22:48:37 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape hate Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050810224837.47883.qmail@web60425.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137202 > > > Colebiancardi: > > > > > I don't think Snape resented DD for that. As DD > stated about > > Snape's > > > meltdown at the end of PoA, he suffered a major > disappointment. I > > > think DD was just telling him he knows....and > the fact is we had > > huge > > > discussions around the *prank* that Sirius > pulled on Snape and > if > > > there was more to it than we know about. > > > > > > > Alla: > > snip > > > > I think that Snape was VERY dissapointed that > Dumbledore did not > > support him > > Alla. > > Julia here: > I absolutely don't agree with you. I just can't > imagine that Snape > could have hated DD. He might have been dissapointed > at some point > or feel very angry but I refuse to believe he > developed such an > intense negative feeling towards DD, the person, Larry Snape is an accomplished occlumens for a reason; he possesses an extreme control over almost his full range of emotions. Only feelings of bitterness and resentment escape his total control. The many small leaks and occasional gushers of passion that escape his facade are expressions of his bitterness, resentment and petty hatreds that take the form of sarcasm, verbal abuse, the hurling of objects and a few foaming tirades. His few moments of any sort of positive action are passionless and reason based; they are a duty performed and an obligation fulfilled. So to me it seems that the only emotion that can take hold of him and drive his behavior is resentment. So I can't find it difficult to believe that at that moment on the tower Snape was siezed by the only feeling that seems to drive him, and he acted accordingly. Larry ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 10 23:04:42 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:04:42 -0000 Subject: Fighting Dementors, Snape, Petunia, and the Restriction of Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137203 > oiboyz wrote: > Remember Harry mentioning that he and Snape disagreed on the best way > to fight a Dementor? Lupin taught Harry to beat back Dementor- induced > despair by holding on to a happy memory. I'm sure Snape has no use > for that. His method is probably something like boxing off his > feelings so he can perform the charm before despair overwhelms him. I do wonder how Snape thinks Dementors should be fought. Although I have no theories about this, specifically, I have an idea as to how it could play into the next book. Remember that Petunia knew about Dementors because she overheard a conversation between Lily and "that awful boy". Perhaps in the next book Dementors will once again visit Privet Drive and Petunia will ward off the Dementors, becoming the person that JKR refers to who will do magic late in life under desparate circumstances, and leaving Harry to wonder how Petunia knew Snape's method of fighting Dementors :) Another question: In PS/SS, doesn't Petunia say that Lily came back from Hogwarts carrying frog spawn in her pockets and changing teacups into mice or something like that? What about the restrcition of underage wizardry? You'd think that the MOM would find out since Lily's family were Muggles. Cheryl From April at cyberlinc.net Wed Aug 10 22:20:54 2005 From: April at cyberlinc.net (April Johnson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:20:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair? References: <105.66a5e540.302b1528@aol.com> Message-ID: <013001c59df9$fec0c170$1502a8c0@april> No: HPFGUIDX 137204 Melissa wrote: Hmm If I am remembering correctly Ron's first wand. . the one that was handed down from Charlie and that was broken during the Whomping Willow encounter also had unicorn hair. . (I think it was poking out of it) and so far Charlie's still alive. April Wrote: If Charlie handed down that wand, could it be assumed that it was handed down to him? Why would he get a new one if the old one was just fine? I think it was handed down to him from someone in the family that died, perhaps one of Molly's brothers? April [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 22:57:47 2005 From: clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com (Ehren) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:57:47 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair/Ravenclaws wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137205 Rachel: As to the wand thing...I dug this up on the 'net. It says flower and tree meanings, so who knows. JK has traditionally gone with the celtic system, but I looked and nowhere does it talk about cherry. So, that is very unique in and of itself. Maybe Ollivander doesn't use this type of wood anymore? I had read another post suggesting that the wand in Ollivander's shop on a pillow (from SS) was Ravenclaws and that was the last horcrux. What if Ollivander sold this particular wand to Neville? It would be strange that Ravenclaw's wand would choose Neville, but interesting. Maybe Ollivander knew that the DE were coming for him and he decided to get > rid of one of the more powerful wands in his store? snip > It is interesting to note that it does say that white cherry means > deception. But the other meaning is "good education." This seems to > interesting to ignore. Ehren again: I really like this theory. We didn't receive any indication of what the Ravenclaw horcux would be. Also, Ravenclaw chose people for her house who were the smartest. Since one meaning of white cherry means "good education" that would fit wouldn't it? As far as the other meaning being "deception" wasn't it a Ravenclaw claw that turned in the DA in bk5? The only problem with this being the final horcux is that Voldemort wouldn't let something so valuble be sitting in a wand shop where people are constantly walking by it day in and day out and Ollivander wouldn't be able to just let Neville have it (even if the wand did choose him) unless it was Voldies plan to do so. Just my thoughts, Ehren (by the way, Rachel I was looking at your email, do play the clarinet? If so rock on! Us muscian/HP fans must bond together thru the internet) I'm ironing my hands now for going briefly off-topic. It won't happen again. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 23:09:19 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why protect the Malfoys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050810230919.60126.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137206 --- allies426 wrote: > Why offer to protect Lucius??? That, to me, is going above and > beyond the call of duty. Lucius Malfoy was a willing participant > in > the activities of the Death Eaters the last time around, and he > joined up right away as soon as Voldemort returned. He has, I'm > sure, committed his share of crimes and unforgivables. I can't > come > up with a good reason for offering him protection, other than > solitary confinement in Azkaban! Because the important goal in the short term is defeating Voldemort. Lucius may be a blot on WW society and a total waste of oxygen, but left on his own he was a known quantity and could be contained by other wizards just as ancestor-proud and as wealthy as he is. Had Fudge had a backbone, Lucius wouldn't have had as much clout in the MoM as he did for five books. Dumbledore is a practical man, and knows that first things come first, and the first order of business is to defeat Voldemort. Harry hasn't learned that yet, and while his standing up to Narcissa and Draco in Madame Malkin's is quite popular with readers, it may be that if the Malfoys are looking for an escape route in Book 7, they won't think of going to Harry because of his good-guys-bad-guys outlook. Sometimes you have make concessions to achieve the big goal. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 23:20:06 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:20:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore in Book 7 (Was: Hagrid's Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: Also, why tell us what Dumbledore's favorite jam is? Or, will somone attempt to fool the Order into believing that DD is back? Good questions! I have (probably outrageously wrong) answers. Harry will get periodic communiques from an anonymous someone who hints that Dumbledore's death was not what it seemed. One will include the answer to the jam question, and each will contain information helpful in the quest for the horcruxes. We will see a repeat of events in OoP and HBP in that Harry believes something no one else does (see footnote). Harry will of course suspect a trap, that a villain is behind these messages, but will ultimately conclude that no one else could have access to the information he is learning; he will also be inclined to believe Dumbledore is still alive out of love and a certain amount of guilt (survivor's and due to events in the cave). The sender will of course turn out to be Snape, who has (in his own inimitable way) been trying to assist Harry in his endeavors since that first day in Potions class. Harry will not find out until the final confrontation that the person he most despises is truly on his side. (footnote: Sirius hostage in MoM in OoP, what Draco is doing matters very much in HBP, as well as the conflict between Hermione's suspicion of and Harry's fondness for the HBP) Sandy, aka msbeadsley, who perhaps hates Snape a little less today P.S. Not only is Irma Pince Snape's mother, but Filch, rather than being her new boyfriend, is actually Snape's father (not a squib but a true muggle); the abusive man we saw in the Pensieve was Snape's maternal grandfather, and Irma and Argus moved to Hogwarts to get away from him. Heh. (Yeah, I know this doesn't work because Filch was there when Arthur and Molly were at school, but still...) From andie1 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 23:36:42 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:36:42 -0000 Subject: The Truth..Slughorn and Dumbledore: Death, act 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > So Harry is mesmerized with death (the arch) and Ginny with time (the > jar). > > In HBP we see Ginny pick a maggot (death again) out of Harry's hair. > Is Ginny going to save Harry by changing or manipulating time? > > Is this some kind of foreshadowing? Time-turners? Is Ginny's patronus > a phoenix? Hmmm... interesting concept. It would bring back the issue of time- turners, but didn't someone say (Hermione maybe?) that all of the time- turners at the ministry were smashed the night of the fight? That statement made me think that there would be no more time traveling... but, time-turners don't have to be the ONLY way to time travel. We know that Ginny is somewhat close to Fred and George, and if anyone is up to studying complex things such as time travel - it is them! Can you say Ireland wins but Krum gets the snitch? :) grindieloe From grega126 at aol.com Thu Aug 11 00:26:26 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:26:26 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137209 After HBP, I have to go back to wondering *why* the memory we saw in OOtP was Snape's worst. We know that he stuck 3 memories into the Pensieve. He was obviously afraid of Harry doing what he did on at least one occasion and get into his head (where he saw the memory Snape had of himself watching his parents fight). It seems reasonable to me to assume that he had a number of memories in his head that he would prefer Harry not see (such as the one Harry did end up seeing) but to pull every unpleasant memory out of his head and then stick them back in there would take so much time that it just becomes impractical. Therefore, the memories he specifically chose to pull out must have some extremely important relevance. It seems eminently reasonable to me that the other two memories he chose to pull out are the 2 concerning the prophecy; the one where he heard it, and the other where he told Voldemort about it. It stands to reason that eventually Harry was going to have to hear the prophecy (it is about him after all) and that when he did, he wouldn't appreciate Snape's role in his parents death. So since there are 2 memories he's pulling out b/c of self preservation, that must mean that the one we saw in OOTP is worse than everything else he's ever done in his entire life. No bit of killing muggles, or anything else awful that he did while a Death Eater, no amount of abuse from his parents, not the time he was nearly killed by a werewolf, not any other time that Sirius and James picked on him, this one time was apparently infinately worse. So is this Snape's worst memory, not because of what we saw, but what we were about to see? We know that Snape pulled Harry out of the memory before it reached its conclusion. Is there something additional that we're missing? greg From devin.smither at yale.edu Thu Aug 11 00:56:15 2005 From: devin.smither at yale.edu (uilnslcoap) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:56:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137210 Nah, thanks. I'd rather not read anything that smacks of being contrary to authorial intent and would just make me mad. But feel free to hang on to the theory. Heck, maybe book 7 will prove me wrong. But book 6 sure didn't. > Pat, responding to both uilnslcoap and Marianne S: > I'm trying to show the elves that I've learned the rules, and will > not post again what I have already posted. All the things you both > questioned have already been addressed in three other threads: > SHIP: Pirate Ginny > SHIP: H/G Indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny > SHIP: Emma, twists, and HBP > > If you want to read those, I'd be happy to discuss new territory > after that. > > Pat From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 00:57:39 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:57:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion (a great Essay on the subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137211 > Max responds: > I have only one example so far, but I'm sure I can come up with more. > Our first hint that Harry might be feeling attracted to Ginny is in > Chap 7, The Slug Club. He asks Ginny to sit with him on the train and > feels a "strange twinge of annoyance" when she tells him she's going > to sit with Dean. Now either Harry is feeling a bit jealous of Dean or > this is the first example of Ginny's LP perfume taking effect. The > problem is only minutes later, Ginny and Harry are once again in close > proximity in Slughorn's train compartment and Harry shows no sign of > being 'oddly attracted' to Ginny. In fact, Ginny is surrounded by five > boys, and none of them show any signs of giving her any more attention > than would be expected. Surely if she were wearing LP perfume we > should expect to see some sort of odd behavior from the boys but we > don't. In fact when Harry and Ginny are talking after leaving > Slughorn, Harry's thoughts are almost completely focused on Draco and > finding out more about his mysterious activities. Not the behavior of > a boy one would expect to see when in such close proximity to LP > perfume, if you ask me. Just today I found a great essay on the subject of Harry/Ginny and Love Potions that I found deeply compelling. While I didn't like H/G in the book I never subscribed to the love potion theory because it strikes me as too conspiracyish but the author of the article lays out a very compelling argument that Hermione has dowsed harry with love potions in an effort to nudge Harry in Ginny's direction. The author of the essay specifically brings up the scene you are talking about, Maxine, and shows a different way to read it. The theory also fits in with the idea that Hermione's big brain is going to get her into trouble someday--something which a lot of people are expecting. Deciding on her own that H/G would be a good idea and taking the initative to make that happen definitely strikes me as something Hermione could do. If this is the case I would take back everything bad I have ever said about JKR. It would be an amazing twist. I'm still not perfectly convinced that it is canon, because there is no way to know short of the next book coming out. Still, it serves as a great justification for post HBP fic with a different pairing than Harry/Ginny and definitely would be the sort of mind blowing twist that the last book needs imo. Anyway, everyone check it out. Its very well written, comprehensive, and logical. I look forward to hearing peoples thoughts about it. http://www.dracoandginny.com/viewstory.php?sid=3300 phoenixgod2000 From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 01:20:02 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:20:02 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137212 > So is this Snape's worst memory, not because of what we saw, but what > we were about to see? We know that Snape pulled Harry out of the > memory before it reached its conclusion. Is there something > additional that we're missing? > > greg Valky: I really agree with you there Greg in some ways. It is likely that the other two memories where the prophecy memories, they would be pertinent to take out to avoid a big conflict in the Occlumency lessons. I still believe that they may instead have been memories he was hiding from Voldie but if perhaps DD set some specific protection around the room to prevent Voldie getting in during the lessons (protecting Snape for teaching them also) then it would make sense that the memories where removed where removed to stop Harry seeing them. But I like your take on them anyway. The thing I mostly agree with of all is that Snape's Worst Memory might actually be the worst because of wht we didn't see, rather than what we did.. One simple logical explanation is that Sevvie really *did* get pantsed by James. That could be a wort memory, and I think it's been suggested before. Although it only half makes sense that Snape would hide the whole thing from Harry, it would be pretty shallow of James to do something like this over his romantic frustrations, and I would think tht Snape would want Harry to see everything up to that point if that was what had happened next, well maybe anyway. For me it's enough to be going on with another theory anyway, though I know some Snapeophiles will love it too much to move on. So another theory (Valky continued to the quickly emptying room)is that the next thing that happened was something Snape did to protect himself from being pantsed, something he shouldn't have done. Something pretty awful or telling about Snape. What could those things be? Something to do with Lupin? Or something more about Lily? I don't know but I'm keen to hear one. ;D From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 01:51:46 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:51:46 -0000 Subject: LOVE Saves the Day in the end WAS Re Dumbledore's Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137213 Marianne S. wrote: >(JKR)wants us to see that love came overcome >and overpower evil, like we know from Harry's parents' sacrifice. >(particularly Lily's) and we know from the scene with Bill/Fleur >and Remus/Nymphadora, just to name one. We also see how Ron and >Hermione can get past their rather childish behaviors And, >just as his >mother's love was a great protector of Harry, hopefully he will see >that his love for Sirius, his two best friends, Ginny, Dumbledore, >etc. is a strength and what is necessary to defeat Voldemort, not >learning how to do unforgiveable curses. Saraquel: Yes I agree with you, I think in many ways we all have to start having trust in the *power* of love if we want to go on the journey that JKR wants to take us on: JMO, I am aware that others may not want me to include them in this thought. That it was Lily's love that saved Harry is the thing I try to bear in mind, although, I would be somewhat disappointed if the power of love could only be victorious at a price of death. I too am wondering if all the people who have loved Harry and whom Harry has loved that are now dead will in some way help him at the Final Meeting between him and Voldemort. Marianne wrote: >a) The love of Ron, Hermione, and Ginny gets him through facing the >difficult truth of what happened in Godric's Hollow. (I am not >sure who to credit it to, but I loved the reminder that Harry may >not have to remember what happened consciously, but the memory >can be stored in his brain like preserved film from a hidden camera >that he can retrieve and observe, like an outsider, in a pensieve. I >also agree that's not a trip he should take alone.) Saraquel: That was probably me in a recent post, but I am not the first to have thought this. I think this scene will happen, and I think it will be key to Harry beginning to trust and understand what DD was talking about. He will see the conditions under which the AK curse did not work, and this should help him enormously in working out a way to defeat Voldemort. It will take enormous courage on Harry's part to do this, and I really can't see Ron and Hermione allowing him to go through it on his own. IMO, they'll gatecrash if they have to! If I am right in thinking R and H will se the GH scene with Harry, then I think it will be a defining moment for them too. They have always supported Harry, but have never really understood (because they have so little life experience) what he was facing. If they see this scene, they'll really have to engage with the reality of what is happening, and what the stakes are. Marianne wrote: >b) Petunia will admit to loving her sister, Lily. Realizing this is >the last time she will ever see Harry and that her love for Lily, >buried deep all those years, is needed now... she gives Harry some >Very Important Information about things she knew. Saraquel: I'm not sure that I can credit Petunia with that sort of insight, or that sort of real love for her sister, but I do think that Petunia may give Harry some important information about Snape and Lily's relationship (I don't mean boyfriend/girlfriend here). I'm going to expand on this in another post on the Snape's Worst memory thread. Marianne wrote: >c) Dumbledore's love for Harry will be shown by Dumbledore willing >Fawkes to Harry. Fawkes will be on hand with more power to heal than >ever because he's carrying in his tears the hope and faith Dumbledore >has in Harry. Dumbledore will also leave Harry his pensieve, complete >with bottled memories he left before the trip to the cave that explain >exactly what the agreement between he and Snape was. Saraquel: I don't think DD would will Fawkes to Harry, I didn't see Fawkes as DDs pet. I think Fawkes chose to be with DD, I see him as a free spirit. But I do think that the moment Harry shows loyalty to the memory of DD, Fawkes will be there. It is quite possible that Fawkes will choose to be with Harry at some point in book 7. I think DDs pensieve will be key, but I don't think it will be the way Harry learns about Snape, I think that will happen through the GH memory. Marianne wrote: >d) Love will work by Snape choosing not to turn Draco over to >Voldemort because he knows that, even with Dumbledore dead, Voldemort >will still punish Draco and his mother because Draco was unable to >kill Dumbledore himself. Saraquel: Yes, what is going to happen with Snape and Voldemort now? I don't think Snape can not `hand over Draco' and remain close to Voldemort. Draco could well be Snape's undoing at the Voldemort end of things. >Marianne wrote: >Snape will also reveal to Narcissa that he is a HALF blood >not a pure blood, and she will realize the error in the way she has >raised her son and how she was believed to think that the only >respectable wizards can be pure blood. (In a utopian post Voldemort >wizarding world, Narcissa's views will completely turn around, Saraquel: No I don't think I can go there with you. I think that Narcissa probably already knows Snape's ancestry ? and she knew the way to Spinners End, so IMO she's been there before, and that is a real give-away. Bella's remark about no-one from their world having set foot in the place. Also, people make choices, and I think Narcissa is a card carrying member of the elitist WW, and won't change her mind, just because we want her to! For your answer to section e) see above and my post in Snape's worst memory thread. Marriane wrote: >f) An avada kedavra or any other unforgiveable curse will not work >on Voldemort and his death eaters because they're not effective >when for righteous reasons. Saraquel: If you mean that Harry et al can't do an Avada Kedavra because they don't have the intent to kill and mean it, I think you might be right. Marianne wrote: >However, with all the horcruxes gone, someone (perhaps we'll really >see the extent of Ginny's power here, or it could be something >cleverly devised by Hermione or even Snape) will develop some way of >having wands join together to create some sort of Ultra Patronus. This >would be something that uses thecombined love of everybody present and >everyone who has ever loved Harry, and will be the thing that defeats >Voldemort. Saraquel: I like this idea, whether it will be a patronus or what, I don't know. But the concept that the combined forces are needed to overcome Voldemort has a good ring to it. Thanks for your post Marianne. Saraquel From nawyecka at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 01:55:30 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050811015530.30012.qmail@web60421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137214 --- greg_a126 wrote: > After HBP, I have to go back to wondering *why* the > memory we saw in > OOtP was Snape's worst. We know that he stuck 3 > memories into the > Pensieve. He was obviously afraid of Harry doing > what he did on at > least one occasion and get into his head (where he > saw the memory > Snape had of himself watching his parents fight). snip > > It seems eminently reasonable to me that the other > two memories he > chose to pull out are the 2 concerning the prophecy; > the one where > he heard it, and the other where he told Voldemort > about it. It > stands to reason that eventually Harry was going to > have to hear the > prophecy (it is about him after all) and that when > he did, he > wouldn't appreciate Snape's role in his parents > death. > > So since there are 2 memories he's pulling out b/c > of self > preservation, that must mean that the one we saw in > OOTP is worse > than everything else he's ever done in his entire > life. No bit of > killing muggles, or anything else awful that he did > while a Death > Eater, no amount of abuse from his parents, not the > time he was > nearly killed by a werewolf, not any other time that > Sirius and James > picked on him, this one time was apparently > infinately worse. > snip > greg Now Larry Whatever we didn't see must have burned Snape with an unbearable shame, that morphed into his undying resentment. And not only for those who commited the act, but their child, and anyone who, at least in Snape's eyes, tacitly condoned his shame by a refusal to impose sufficient punishment; meaning Dumbledore. Could this have been the catalyst that drove Snape into the arms of Voldemort? If this makes sense to anyone beside me, think about this: his worst memory is of an event that pushed him into becoming a Death Eater. So how happy could he be as a DE, if this is indeed his worst memory? It raises the question that aside from fanatics such as Bella, do any of Voldemort's adherants relish their roles as DE? I would think that for all but the true believers, their fear of Voldemort rather quickly comes to outweigh their reasons for becoming DE. So how loyal, really, are the DE to Voldemort? How loyal could Snape be to Voldemort if this is indeed his worst memory? I have an earlier post, 137202, that may explain why Snape acted the way he did even if he was not fully and completely loyal to Voldemort. Larry __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From ehteshamulh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 01:38:48 2005 From: ehteshamulh at yahoo.com (ehteshamulh) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:38:48 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137215 This is a contentious topic. What to make of Draco? I agree that Draco did not volunteer to assassinate Dumbledore; Voldemort did "bestow" the honour on Draco. But leaving that aside for a second, let's think back through our six years of delightful association with Master Malfoy. Think back to Harry's first meeting with Draco, all those years back, when they were both so tiny and cute. Doesn't something strike you? This boy is coming to Hogwarts with an agenda. His parents have raised him on a steady diet of a particular social view- point, and he is coming to Hogwarts to be the poster boy of that view-point for the next seven years, and diminish and push down anyone who dares think otherwise. Look, the job even comes ready- made with two yes-men to do your bidding. And then, finally, the Dark Lord returns. Surely great things are to follow. The Malfoys will again stand at the pinnacle of social eminence; no filthy blood-traitor Ministry scum will dare raid their hallowed mansion. But then, daddy dearest is thrown in jail, exposed once and for all irrevocably as a death eater, and Malfoy's dreams of basking in his father's glory, and joining in at due time suddenly take a nose-dive. The next part, I'm going to speculate about. There is no basis for this in canon, so feel free to disagree/disprove. You are Draco. You suddenly see your father in prison (A Malfoy in Azkaban? Unthinkable, dear.) Suddenly other death eaters are spreading rumours and muttering amongst themselves. Even old-time family retainers are beginning to grumble. To put a personal spin on things, remember the six members of DA who actually fought off the Death Eaters. Can you pick any other six students of Hogwarts Draco loathed more, even before this incident? We've seen interactions between Neville and Draco, any guesses on how he behaved towards Luna? No, they way I read it, Draco went post-haste to Voldemort, and kneeled in front of the Dark Lord, and begged the honour of placing his life and soul in service of the Dark Mark. And Voldemort, that prince of a wizard, promptly granted him that honour. The rest, we all know, or think we know. But think back of all we have seen so far. Of course, all final judgments are held off till book seven. But I'd like to remind you about a postulate by journalist Oriana Fallaci. Tyrants, she wrote, should not be remembered as they were when they, shrunk and defeated, took their lives in underground bunkers or hung upside-down from lamp-posts. No, she said, remember them as they stood, in the fullness of their power, drunk on hubris and glory, and then remember what they did. So, let us not solely remember Draco as he stood, allegedly choiceless, in front of his Headmaster with a slightly lowered wand. Let us also remember him as, with full freedom of choice, he lied to try and take the life of an innocent hippogriff, or dishonoured the death and the memory of a Triwizard champion. Choices, not abilities, did someone say? So be it. Ehtesham From swood at csu.edu.au Thu Aug 11 00:53:37 2005 From: swood at csu.edu.au (sgwood01) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:53:37 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? WAS: Re: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: <20050810181919.371.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137216 > Ceridwen: > I've been playing with this one, too. Along with other threads about Irma Pince. And have come up with a completely AU theory (don't laugh!), one that I don't quite believe myself, since Filch is a Squib: Filch is the elder Snape. > Juli: But Tobias Snape was/is a muggle, not a squib, that's what The Prophet reported, we knoe the Prophet is wrong sometimes, but I don't think such a meaningless news could be altered, IMO > > I do like the whole Irma Pince is Mrs Snape, Jo has played with anagrams before (Tom Marvolo Riddle = I am Lord Voldemort), so Irma Pince could be I'm a Prince, I like this idea. Sue W: I will be very surprised if this doesn't turn out to be the case. I have a couple of thoughts to add. I went back to look at the quote from JKR about Hogwarts' staff having spouses. The actual exchange was: "Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why." (from Quick Quote Quills) First, the question says 'had', rather than 'have' which suggests that the spouses belong in the past, rather than the present. Second, JKR suggests that we will find out why this information is restricted - but we haven't yet. Given that there don't seem to be similar clues about any of the other staff, and it is a bit late in the piece to be introducing further plot complications, I reckon the odds are that 'Irma Prince' is the staff whose marital status is relevant. If so, I wonder what happened to Snape senior and how long Madame Pince has been at Hogwarts? Thinking about this possibility I also thought of the similarity between Madame Pince's response to seeing the potion's book in Harry's possession (besmirched, befouled) and Mrs Black's screechings about her house being defiled in OotP. I originally thought that Madame Pince was yelling at the fact that someone had written in the book, and this is what is implied by Hermione's remark. But what if the besmirching and befouling was actually a response to the book (her book, the book of a full blood) finding its way into the possession of Harry (a half-blood)? Sue W From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 02:16:37 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:16:37 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137217 greg wrote: So is this Snape's worst memory, not because of what we saw, but what we were about to see? We know that Snape pulled Harry out of the memory before it reached its conclusion. Is there something additional that we're missing? vmonte: Several months ago this topic came up. Someone mentioned (I cannot remember who) that perhaps Snape figured out what Lupin was because of the essay question. I thought that the prank happened the night after the exam so here is our idea... This memory leads into the night of the prank. In the penseive memory Harry sees Snape looking over his notes, while James and gang are joking about question ten: on how to spot a werewolf. This is when we think that Snape realizes what Lupin is (as if his name isn't a big clue). In OOTP Lupin mentions to Harry that Snape was always folowing them around and that he was very curious about Lupin's disapearance every month. Anyway, While Harry is watching Snape's Worst Memory he notices that Lupin does not look good and wonders if the full moon is approaching. I think that the prank happened that night after the exams and that Snape already knew what Lupin was. In PoA Snape gives this same essay to Lupin's class. And then Hermione figures out what Lupin is because of it. Vivian From asalight at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Aug 11 00:01:43 2005 From: asalight at sdf.lonestar.org (Nate Clampitt) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:01:43 -0700 Subject: Delayed Test Results References: Message-ID: <004201c59e07$dbdf4790$0400180a@kiyone> No: HPFGUIDX 137218 Jason: Does it bug anyone else that Fred, George and Percy all get the results of their OWLs and NEWTs while still at school, while the trio have to wait until a few weeks before classes to get their results? There's one thing you're not taking into account here.... the upheaval in the faculty during the last months of the school year in OOTP. In POA, the headmaster and faculty were in place, not having been uprooted, twisted around, or interfered with by outside forces. Taking those factors into account, it's all too easy to see OWL/NEWT results being delayed. Asalight. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 02:45:43 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? WAS: Re: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050811024543.59870.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137219 sgwood01 wrote: "Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why." (from Quick Quote Quills) First, the question says 'had', rather than 'have' which suggests that the spouses belong in the past, rather than the present. Juli: Not necesarily. The question is in Present Perfect, so it has to have the "HAD", if it was "have", it'd be incorrect. This tense refers to something that begun in the past and is still going on, so it can be that they HAD spouses or they still HAVE them. I don't believe Argus Fitch (sp?) is Mr Tobias Snape... but Irma Prince could be Mrs Snape. We'll just have to wait 2 years and see! Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 02:46:00 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:46:00 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137220 Greg wrote: > After HBP, I have to go back to wondering *why* the memory we saw in > OOtP was Snape's worst. Memories being about the prophecy> > So is this Snape's worst memory, not because of what we saw, but what > we were about to see? We know that Snape pulled Harry out of the > memory before it reached its conclusion. Is there something > additional that we're missing? > > greg Saraquel: No, I actually think that we saw the bit that makes it Snape's worst memory, and a memory he doesn't want Harry to see. I know that I've read in one of the interviews JKR gave after HBP was published that JKR deliberately avoided mentioning who the `awful boy' was who told Lily about the dementors of Azkaban, but I can't seem to find it. Anyone else remember that, can you point me to it? My guess is that it was not James, but Snape who gave her that information. It would be the sort of thing he would be interested in. I think Lily befriended Snape in potions, and that he possibly had a massive crush on her, (which was not reciprocated in a romantic way) - despite what seems like contrary evidence from the grey underpants scene, but I'll get to that in a minute. I never used to be a Lily/Snape-had-some-sort ?of-relationship-person, but the evidence from Slughorn in HBP about Lily being a whiz at potions, Snape's Advanced Potions book being full of notes that I think they might well have compiled together, or that he pinched her inspiration, and JKR choosing to tell us about Lupin and Lily rather than Snape and Lily in the Mugglenet/LC interview has edged me towards it. Ok, if you don't think this in on, you won't like what's coming Let's face it, the last thing Snape would want to admit whilst he is hanging in the air at James' instigation with his underpants showing, is that he loves the girl James fancies, or indeed has any vulnerable feelings towards her. That would just have brought total humiliation and devastation down on his head and a renewed vindictiveness. In a previous post about Real Life Spinners End I suggested that Snape's obvious working class background and relative poverty may have given him a class chip on his shoulder. It's not only that James fancies the girl he has a mega-crush on, but James is an arrogant middle class toe-rag as well in Snape's eyes. I think it was Snape's worst memory, because at that point he was a coward in his own eyes. He chose to save himself by defaming and disowning Lily. Ouch. He then blames James, a boy he already hates, for `forcing' him into this situation. This is why Snape gets apoplectic at being called a coward by Harry ? because he knows, deep down, that he was one in that scene. This is why he is so remorseful when he finds out that Lily and James are the target (there may be other reasons as well), and why he goes to DD, in an effort to expunge his cowardice. This is why his hatred for James only increases, because he blames James for the fact that he rejected Lily publicly, and then James got `his' girl. IMO, he wants to hide the memory not just because James has him hanging in the air with his undies drying in the breeze and he doesn't want Harry to see it: he hides it because it is the thing he is most ashamed of. It might have been a memory totally unrelated to Harry that Snape was most ashamed of and he would have wanted to hide it from Harry. The important thing is that Snape did not want to give Harry any insight into his vulnerabilities. Even though I don't like Snape, I don't think that he is a coward, and I don't think he can forgive himself for this act of cowardice in his youth. What do you think? Saraquel From ongj87 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 02:50:21 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:50:21 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137221 No doubt most of us are very certain that one of the Weasley's will be leaving us forever in the next book, if not more than one. Mrs. Weasley's woes (OoP) are not negligible. Anybody got any clues as to who it might be? I'm thinking Ginny, based on a little tid bit in the fifth book. At Harry's first dinner at Grimmauld Place, there are thirteen people seated at the table: Bill, Arthur, Molly, Ron, Harry, Hermione, Fred, George, Ginny, Sirius, Lupin, Tonks, and Mundungus (correct me if I'm wrong). The first person to rise from the table was Ginny, who went to play with Crookshanks on the floor with some butterbeer corks. Ongj. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 11 03:08:14 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:08:14 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137222 There were many different responses on different threads about Love, so I cut and pasted all my responses here, hoping I didn't forget anything! Saraquel (post #137139): > In some ways it is the easy way out in terms of the diet we are > normally fed which is blood, guts and violence win the day. But I > think JKR is setting the book up to be different. She did not > make Harry the conventional superhero. His courage is the courage > to love against the odds. His lesson IMO, is that if he really > wants to beat Voldemort, he has to stop thinking unforgivable > curses and start thinking power of love. He has to stop seeing > love as a nothing, a luxury for the easy times, and start to see > it for what it really is, what DD knows it is. OotP p743 UKed > "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted > Dumbledore, `that is kept locked at all times. It contains a > force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, > than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." Jen: Very well said, Saraquel. I think that sums up Harry's dilemma completely. I hope there's a moment when Harry remembers the conversation between Dumbledore & Voldemort in the Pensieve: "Of some kinds of magic," Dumbledore corrected him quietly. "Of some. Of others, you remain...forgive me....woefully ignorant. "The old argument," {Voldemort} said softly. "But nothing I have seen in the world has supported your famous pronouncements that love is more powerful than my kind of magic, Dumbledore." "Perhaps you have been looking in the wrong places," suggested Dumbledore. (chap. 20, p. 444, US) That last line! Doesn't that just sum up the lesson Dumbledore wants Harry to learn? That sometimes the *places* we search for our answer can lead to more problems. Harry has been convinced since hearing the prophecy that he can't defeat Voldemort because he is not as magically powerful. And this has led him in some doubtful directions in HBP, like trying out new spells without knowing the effects, and trying to cast Unforgivables and dark hexes at Snape. Dumbledore keeps redirecting him back to the proper places to learn what is truly important: 'Talk to Ron and Hermione; don't set too much store by the Prophecy; remember what you've learned about Voldemort's weaknesses; recognize your own strengths.' Dumbledore tries to convince Harry in the Horcrux chapter how *little* it matters that Voldemort is more skilled. It's sort of like Fleur saying "I am good-looking enough for both of us, I theenk." Well, Voldemort is powerful enough for both of them, I theenk, and Harry only needs to follow the course he and Dumbledore started on and Voldemort will mess up the rest :). In his ignorance, Voldemort just keeps handing Harry the weapons of his own demise, one after the other. Saraquel: > > Harry somehow lures Voldemort into the Room of Love, not that > difficult if he has all Voldemorts Horcruxes in his hands as bait. > The Room of Love is like a gigantic mirror in which one sees > everything about oneself illuminated in the light of what is > Right ? with a very big capital R. At that point there is > blinding self-realisation, which brings about internal agonies > which the cruciatus curse can only hint at. One sees > oneself measured against perfection, and motives count. Hence it > will not be an easy ride for Harry either. All this crucio stuff > against his enemies will come back to haunt him at this point, and > he too will have to go through the mill and out the other side. > But his pure untarnished soul should get him through it. However, > for Voldemort and his evil Horcrux bits, there will be literally, > hell to pay. Quite whether this will kill Volemort or just leave > him crumpled and vanquished, or what I don't know. > Valky: > IMO this theory is really strong Saraquel, because I agree that we > should look outside the box of Lovey dovey Mushy sweet things about > Love when looking for this final Love that will defeat Voldemort. > Throughout the series we have seen Love in forms of compassion, > Friendship, sacrifice, loyalty.. all the sentimental stuff, AND we > have also seen the Terrifying Power of Dumbledore *decidely not > mushy*, So far Harry has used a sentimental Love > against Voldemort (in OOtP),and it hurt him and he ran away. But > it wasn't the end of Voldemort, it didn't destroy him. But what > about it threatened him so much thathe ran. I think this Power > that Voldemort fears, must truly *be* terrifying and not just to > Voldie. So I like Last Judgement Love, a lot. Because it *is* > terrifying. Jen: I talked about compassionate love at one point on this thread, feeling Dumbledore symbolizes this. And Saraquel replied: "To me, Last Judgement Love (for want of a better phrase) is the highest form of compassion....It destroys evil in the soul, leaving it pure, and in knowledge of its true nature, rather than damming it to eternal torment." The point I made about all the good Dumbledore did for many people and creatures is really only half of the equation for compassionate love. I think we saw the other half in the cave, after Dumbledore drank the potion. I feel certain he was reliving the most terrible times in his life, times when he made mistakes and misjudgements about people and situations, leading to people or creatures being tortured or killed. It reminded me of a quote by Milan Kundera in The Unbearable Lightness of Being: "For nothing is heavier than compassion. Not even one's own pain weighs so heavy as the pain one feels with someone, for someone, a pain intensified by the imagination and prolonged by a hundred echos." So compassionate love, which is actually very similar to what Saraquel is proposing, is not exactly for the faint of heart! I suspect one mistake, one of the "correspondingly huge mistakes" DD alludes to in HBP, was not being able to influence Tom Riddle to make better choices during his time at Hogwarts. DD still had hopes when he met Tom at the orphange that Tom could learn to use his magical abilities in a more positive way. And he probably believed there was good in Tom, because that's what he does! But Riddle turned his back on Dumbledore early on and begin to search for mentoring in all the wrong places. > Valky: > I agree that Dumbledore's love was remarkable. And for a long time > he tried to instil the same compassion and goodness in others. I > think there will be a compassionate love in the final > confrontation and it will help Harry to win. By Saraquels theory > Harry's Compassion would be a reason he survives the raw force of > this "Judgement Love" which I like a lot, but I don't know how > compassion itself could Vanquish Voldemort except that it could > cause him to destroy himself to escape it if he couldn't run away. > Unless you were hoping that Harry's compassion could somehow > *save* Voldie from himself in the end? I wouldn't argue with an > ending like that, if JKR figured a way to save Tom somehow it > would be OK with me but somehow I think that in Harry's story LV > can't be saved *and* kept alive it's one or the other dead or > doomed IMHO. Jen: I suppose in the end I feel compassionate love will vanquish Voldemort indirectly, as a result of Voldemort's ignorance about it. Like the phoenix song coming out of the Priori Incantatem web of light that night at the graveyard. Harry was not doing anything to call forth the Phoenix song, but there it was. The song and the echos guided Harry through that episode because he deperately needed help, and because he possessed a pure heart and soul. It wasn't Dumbledore trying to save him this time, or another of his allies. Harry must have felt completely alone until that moment. Ack, I can't get at exactly what I mean. But I see something happening after the Horcruxes are destroyed, when Voldemort is mortal, where he will bring about his own downfall. His pure evil will call forth something from Harry or around him that will lead to his final defeat. One possibility is what SSSusan suggested in post #137151: > In the end, Harry will come, probably solo, to the understanding > that he must sacrifice himself. He will be willing to do so > because of his love for (many) others -- **not** because of > romantic love for Ginny, but because of deep, compassionate, > altruistic agape love & concern for others. > > But here's the TWIST I'm hoping for. Harry will come to believe > this, and he will come to DECIDE that he will sacrifice himself, > thus ensuring (somehow! -- leaving this up to JKR's magical > creativity) Voldemort's demise. However, in the process of > offering himself up, Harry will (somehow!) discover, quite > surprisingly, that he does not NEED to die. The belief & the > willingness to have died will turn out to have been enough. Jen again: You know, all my theorizing leads me back to the same place--another failed AK :). I don't know why I'm stuck on this. But I could see Harry deciding to do what Susan suggested above, believing it's the only way to save the WW, and telling Voldemort, "kill me now." Voldemort, still blind to the power of sacrificial love ONCE AGAIN, will attempt to kill Harry and again the AK rebounds and kills him instead. I really won't harp on this idea again, but I do love the symmetry of Harry, like Lily, choosing to die, and by making that compassionate choice to save the WW, defeating Voldemort once and for all. Jen, starting to sound like a broken record so she obviously needs to move on to another thread. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Thu Aug 11 03:10:53 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 Aug 2005 03:10:53 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1123729853.1371.70071.w105@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137223 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /HBP Posts.xls Uploaded by : jlnbtr Description : Index of Posts from HBP You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HBP%20Posts.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, jlnbtr From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 03:13:33 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:13:33 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137224 greg wrote: So is this Snape's worst memory, not because of what we saw, but what we were about to see? We know that Snape pulled Harry out of the memory before it reached its conclusion. Is there something additional that we're missing? vmonte wrote: This memory leads into the night of the prank. In the penseive memory Harry sees Snape looking over his notes, while James and gang are joking about question ten: on how to spot a werewolf. This is when we think that Snape realizes what Lupin is (as if his name isn't a big clue) Marianne S: I have been wondering recently (because my mind keeps straying to all that we don't know about Lily not to mention the power of Love) if this perhaps the worst memory for Snape because of the way he treated Lily? Perhaps at that time he already had feelings for her and was buoyed by the fact that she seemed to hate James as much as he did... but he was so embarrassed that she had to stand up for him that he blurted out t he "mudblood" thing to try and save face. Not only that, but perhaps Lily was the one person who knew that Snape was not a pureblood... I like the theory that Snape may be looking at his notes and thinking about Lupin. And yes, it is true that both Remus and Lupin are names associated with wolves.(Not to be condescending, but if people actually don't know.... in Roman Mythology, Romulus and Remus were the twin sons of Mars, God of War,left abandoned by a river and raised by a wolf until rescued by a shepherd, and Lupin is of course derivitave of "Lupine" which means wolf like) However, I do wonder why Lupin's parents named him Remus Lupin if he was not a Werewolf at birth... didn't he say Greyback bit him when Remus was 5? As for the prank, it is a pet theory of mine that the prank happened much later in their school career, perhaps 7th year. A while ago I posted that I think that Severus loved Lily and, even if she didn't return or even know his feelings, he was at least comforted by the fact that Lily hated James. But, again in my theory, it is the very fact that James saves his worst enemy's life that gets Lily to change her mind about him, so not only does Snape owe James a Life Debt, but he loses the girl he loves to him. I put this event in their 7th year because that's when Sirius and Lupin said that James and Lily started going together. Nevertheless, I won't mind being proven wrong; I just hope that exactly what happened during the prank (as well as what happened at Godric's Hollow and why Dumbledore trusted Snape) are three memories I would like JKR to show us in book 7. Marianne S. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 03:13:50 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:13:50 -0000 Subject: HBP Posts (OT sorry) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137225 I've uploaded a excel file with the index of post-HBP posts, so far I've only organized about 3000 (until July 28th), but I'll continue to update it. I hope it helps. I only put the message number on which the thread starts. There're only about 1500 messages left, I'll try to do them this week Cheers Juli From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Aug 11 03:40:52 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:40:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair? Message-ID: <24.76b6d22c.302c22c4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137226 In a message dated 8/10/2005 6:07:52 PM Central Standard Time, April at cyberlinc.net writes: If Charlie handed down that wand, could it be assumed that it was handed down to him? Why would he get a new one if the old one was just fine? I think it was handed down to him from someone in the family that died, perhaps one of Molly's brothers? April No. the text specifically says that its Charlies old wand. Chapter 6 "The Journey From Platform 9 and Three Quarters pg 79. "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've got a lot to live up to. Bill and Charlie have already left -- Bill was head boy and Charlie was captain of Quidditch. Now Percy's a prefect. Fred and George mess around a lot, but they still get really good marks and everyone thinks they're really funny. Everyone expects me to do as well as the others, but if I do, it's no big deal, because they did it first. You never get anything new, either, with five brothers. I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand, and Percy's old rat." As to why Charlie would need a new wand? Perhaps he decided to splurge when he went off to Romania or maybe he needed a wand with a different quality to work with dragons. For example Ollivander tells us that James' wand was Mahogany and excellent for transfiguration while Lily's was Willow and a nice one for charm work. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oiboyz at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 03:47:09 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:47:09 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137227 "ongj87" wrote: > I'm thinking Ginny, based on a little tid bit in the fifth book. At > Harry's first dinner at Grimmauld Place, there are thirteen people > seated at the table: Bill, Arthur, Molly, Ron, Harry, Hermione, Fred, > George, Ginny, Sirius, Lupin, Tonks, and Mundungus (correct me if I'm > wrong). The first person to rise from the table was Ginny, who went > to play with Crookshanks on the floor with some butterbeer corks. Ah, but Sirius half-rose from his chair before that, in response to some provocation, and of course he bit the dust at the end of Book 5. I think that was probably the end of that scene's foretelling. I know it would be so easy to off a Weasley... there are nine to choose from... but my own feeling is that JKR will keep them all alive, just because the people who die aren't usually the ones you expect. And didn't Arthur and Molly lose relatives in the last war? They're due for some karmic relief the second time around. I'll make this prediction, though-- if one of the Weasley children *does* die, I think Molly will take the news in an exceptionally brave way that completely belies all her hysterics about her family's safety in the first six books. It's hard on Molly to sit and worry and fear and anticipate awful things, but should the worst actually happen, we'll see how strong she really is. -oiboyz From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 11 03:48:26 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:48:26 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? (Re: LOVE Saves the Day in the end) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137228 > Marianne wrote: > b) Petunia will admit to loving her sister, Lily. Realizing this > is the last time she will ever see Harry and that her love for > Lily, buried deep all those years, is needed now... she gives > Harry some Very Important Information about things she knew. > Saraquel: > I'm not sure that I can credit Petunia with that sort of insight, > or that sort of real love for her sister, but I do think that > Petunia may give Harry some important information about Snape and > Lily's relationship (I don't mean boyfriend/girlfriend here). I'm > going to expand on this in another post on the Snape's Worst > memory thread. Jen: I snipped out this one idea from Marianne's post because it's been nagging at me all day. I returned to the Edinburgh book festival notes, where JKR made this comment to the question, "Is Petunia a Squib?" "Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess." The only thing I can think of related to being a Squib is denying your own magical powers. We see in HBP that Tonks loses some of her powers because of emotional upset. And Merope cannot use magic until she's away from the influence of her abusive father. So could you completely lose your powers if you deny having them? If Petunia has always lived as a Muggle, she must be as good at compartmentalizing her feelings as Snape is! And that would mean denying Lily and all she stands for. Petunia's perceived hatred for Lily was not jealousy, but contempt for her *choosing* to openly live the life of a witch. In that convoluted scenario, if Petunia owns up to who she really is, the facade of hating Lily would also fall away. The reason for it would go away. It wouldn't be the first time Harry was shocked by Aunt Petunia! This might explain why Petunia turned a bit red after Dumbledore scolded them for their treatment of Harry. At first I thought she felt shame or remorse, but now I wonder if her two worlds weren't starting to collide. She could have realized during DD's speech that what she did to Harry, trying to drum all the magic out of him, was basically what she did to herself. It's a longshot, like Saraquel said it might require more insight than Petunia is capable of. Jen From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 03:49:11 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:49:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion (a great Essay on the subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > Phoenixgod wrote: > Just today I found a great essay on the subject of Harry/Ginny and > Love Potions that I found deeply compelling. While I didn't like H/G > in the book I never subscribed to the love potion theory because it > strikes me as too conspiracyish but the author of the article lays > out a very compelling argument that Hermione has dowsed harry with > love potions in an effort to nudge Harry in Ginny's direction. > phoenixgod2000 Max: Thanks for the link Phoenix. I have to admit this theory has far fewer holes than the Ginny wearing Love Perfume theory. And I did enjoy reading it. However, did you read the detail she needed to go into to make this theory plausible? I mean doesn't Harry already have enough on his plate in Book 7 without having to deal with some wholly melodramatic Love Potion fiasco, where he's been deceived by two of his best friends. Does Book 7 really have time for this kind of soap opera? Imo, no. JKR has stated in no uncertain terms that she believes Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry. Now some of us may be happy with that, and others may hate the idea and think the writing is terrible. But I think the fact remains. To me the first paragraph of this theory is very telling. The author states that while she hates H/G, she grudgingly had to admit it was canon and therefore didn't give much credence to the conspiracy theories. Well, you know the saying. Sometimes it's better to stick with your first impression. :grin: Max From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 03:59:37 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:59:37 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137230 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greg_a126" wrote: It seems eminently reasonable to me that the other two memories he chose to pull out are the 2 concerning the prophecy; the one where he heard it, and the other where he told Voldemort about it. (Snip) So is this Snape's worst memory, not because of what we saw, but what we were about to see? We know that Snape pulled Harry out of the memory before it reached its conclusion. Is there something additional that we're missing? Tonks: Yes I think there was more that we did not see and it was the so called prank. I think what is missing is the fact that James saved Snape and now Snape has a life debit to James, whom he hates. If you put this together with hearing the prophecy and telling LV, then you have a whole. You also have the reason, IMO, why Lily didn't have to die, as I said in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134872 This is Snape's worst memory because he is duty bond to protect James and he was also, later, the person somewhat responsible for James' death. His worst memory is the night that he became indebted to James. This situation has messed up Snape's life. For one thing he has to protect Harry, he doesn't really want to, but the life debit transferred to Harry somehow and now Snape is stuck. We don't really know if Snape *wants* to be on the side of DD and the Order, or if he *must* be to save his own soul. By that I mean if he doesn't protect Harry and he is responsible for James' death, this is very bad magic indeed and I am sure that the consequences are very severe. After HBP Snape is even more stuck, poor man, almost like a man without a country, he is damned either way and has no place to call home. If you think Harry is a marked man, Snape is even more so. Whatever he does now will not matter, he is doomed. And it all started the night that James saved his life. Indeed there is probably more than one thing that is worse than death. Snape probably wishes that it had ended that night of the full moon many, many years ago. Tonks_op From Goddess_of_fire2001 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 22:28:47 2005 From: Goddess_of_fire2001 at hotmail.com (kcbazzani) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:28:47 -0000 Subject: Who is the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137231 I'm sorry if I am posting this wrong but here it goes. A lot of people assume that because the book was published 50 years ago that the person that wrote it must be that old. But has anyone thought that maybe it could have been done recently. Just becuase it was published then doesn't mean it was written in then. I just might not have been used after it got written in. Just a thought. Kc From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 04:55:54 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 04:55:54 -0000 Subject: LOVE saves the day in the end + other love threads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137232 In answer to SSSusan, Merrylinks and Geoff - my last post today! SSSusan Wrote: > If we end this series without an explanation of how events unfolded > that night at GH, preferably with an actual "visual," it will > probably be my biggest disappointment of the series (unless Harry > bites it in the end, as that would be even bigger. > Saraquel: I think that would be impossible, GH is so central to the plot that JKR has even given us the nod that we'll find out about it somewhere near the start of book7, and I suspect it will further the plot with regards to Snape. SSSusan wrote: > It's the > combination of these things -- love/compassion/concern for others >+ the willingness to sacrifice which will be the (somehow!) fatal > combination for Voldy. > > Here's how I have always seen it playing out. In the end, Harry >will come, probably solo, to the understanding that he must >sacrifice himself. He will be willing to do so because of his love >for (many)others -- **not** because of romantic love for Ginny, but >because of deep, compassionate, altruistic agape love & concern for >others. > > But here's the TWIST I'm hoping for. Harry will come to believe > this, and he will come to DECIDE that he will sacrifice himself, >thus ensuring (somehow! -- leaving this up to JKR's magical >creativity) Voldemort's demise. However, in the process of >offering himself up, Harry will (somehow!) discover, quite >surprisingly, that he does not NEED to die. The belief & the >willingness to have died will turn out to have been enough. > > Yeah, yeah, I know. Some of you are gagging at your computer >screens right now. But Saraquel asked... and this is my response. > Saraquel: I did ask, Sssusan and I'm not gagging. I like this scenario. I said in another recent post, that I hoped that the love capable of killing Voldemort did not automatically demand a death to fulfil it. (Badly put, but I hope you get my drift.) To me, this powerful form of love, whatever it is, should be something that is able to be experienced here on earth, not just something that is `heavenly' ? sorry but it is difficult to find expressions that don't have religious connotations, when talking about this. If not, then the message is, that death is the only way you can really experience love, and I'm not sure that I agree with that. But with your scenario, it becomes more, love is *worth* dying for if necessary, but love itself does not demand the sacrifice of life. I'm tying myself in knots a bit here, and am quite probably contradicting stuff I've said before :-) Merrylinks wrote: >Saraquel, your questions reminded me of Dumbledore's comments about >the Mirror of Erised: >"It shows us nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate >desire of our hearts. ...Men have wasted away before it, entranced >by what they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it >shows is real or even possible." >Perhaps the reason the Room of Love is dangerous is that, once you've >entered it, you never want to leave it. Saraquel: Hmmmm, a sort of Venus Fly Trap!! Merrylinks wrote: >If Harry somehow manages to open the door and get LV >to enter the room, LV would suddenly be confronted with a huge amount >of the power he knows not. Just something to think about. Exactly Merrylinks, and thereby finds his downfall maybe. My problem with my own theory is that I don't know how I can fit it round the prophecy ? well there you go, my words give me away, if it was going to work, I shouldn't need to fit it round, it should just drop in like a round peg into a round hole! Geoff wrote: >This is why I objected a few days ago when someone wrote something >like "That's why I don't want Harry to win by using (ugh!) love." I >pointed out that real love is the sort of love demonstrated by Christ >on the Cross - not love being crooned about but real, strong, deep >love unyielding in its aims to care for others and to put their needs >in front. "Greater love has no man...." etc." Saraquel: I find it very interesting that (generalising now, and aware of it) our society finds it difficult to credit love as being a strong, powerful and effective force. I do think that the media being awash with romantic trivia has a lot to answer for. The fact that there is only one word in English to cover so many bases, whereas in Greek, as you pointed out they distinguish different types, also has a part to play. The word love is used in all contexts from the sublime to the ridiculous, and I think it has suffered from that, and been tainted with ridicule. If I'm picking up the signals correctly about where JKR is going with this book, then I admire her for choosing this theme, and creating a powerful story around it. Saraquel From tifflblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 11 02:44:39 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:44:39 -0700 Subject: Voldemort's wand a horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137233 Hi. I just had a creepy thought. What if Voldemort made his wand into one of the horcruxes? It'd be on him all the time, so it'd be difficult to destroy. Tiffany From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 11 02:46:08 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:46:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > ...the perfume only works when Ginny is in/or has been recently > in close proximity...Our first hint that Harry might be > feeling attracted to Ginny is in Chap 7, The Slug Club. He asks > Ginny to sit with him on the train and feels a "strange twinge of > annoyance" when she tells him she's going to sit with Dean. Now > either Harry is feeling a bit jealous of Dean or this is the > first example of Ginny's LP perfume taking effect. The problem is > only minutes later, Ginny and Harry are once again in close > proximity in Slughorn's train compartment and Harry shows no sign > of being 'oddly attracted' to Ginny. In fact, Ginny is surrounded > by five boys, and none of them show any signs of giving her any > more attention than would be expected. Surely if she were wearing > LP perfume we should expect to see some sort of odd behavior from > the boys but we don't. Pat: The fumes from the most powerful love potion made Harry feel content, with no outward signs or actions to show that he was being effected, pg 183 US. He sat at the table with it for the rest of the class with no unusual behavior. Ginny can't be wearing Amortentia, or Harry would be smelling treacle tart and his Firebolt, too, so it has to be a weaker love potion. So why couldn't the effects of a weaker potion just make Ginny popular with the boys? On page 150, Pansy says "a lot of boys like her", and Harry and Ron agree Ginny is too popular for her own good. Someone else brought up that Harry decided to stop seeing her while she was still wearing the flowery scent. I have to say that is the biggest glitch in the hypothesis so far. The only way to get around that would be if his concern for Ginny's safety, and his dedication to his mission, allowed him to overcome the effect of the potion. It wouldn't be a first - he quickly overcame reacting to Veela, and could fight Imperious on the first try. I might be dead wrong, but I still see it as a viable possibility for a twist. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 05:12:57 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:12:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion (a great Essay on the subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137235 > Max: > > Thanks for the link Phoenix. I have to admit this theory has far fewer > holes than the Ginny wearing Love Perfume theory. And I did enjoy > reading it. However, did you read the detail she needed to go into to > make this theory plausible? Oh yeah. It is by no means perfect and I'm not holding my breath for it to become canon. But I don't think it takes much more reading into details than the reams of Snape/Lily theories out there or the complex puppetmastery plots Dumbledore's engaged in to justify Snape's murder of the old guy. I mean doesn't Harry already have enough > on his plate in Book 7 without having to deal with some wholly > melodramatic Love Potion fiasco, where he's been deceived by two of > his best friends. Does Book 7 really have time for this kind of soap > opera? Actually, I think yes. I doubt that book seven is going to be a purely adventure/Indiana jones style Horcrux hunt. A nice love potion fiasco could add that a nice character counterpoint to the adventure. Plus it feeds into the ideas of trust, forgiveness, and love that so much of the story has been about. It also nicely fits as Hermione's huge fall from grace that so many people see coming. I, like the author can absolutely see Hermione having the psychological flaws necessary to drug Harry 'for his own good'. JKR does like a good mystery/shocking reveal and this would be a great one. Imagine the changes in Hermione's character. Imagine the guilt if Ginny is taken because Voldemort believes Harry to be in love with her. Awesome, amazing potential. Not saying it is going to be that way. But it could. It very easily could. > To me the first paragraph of this theory is very telling. The author > states that while she hates H/G, she grudgingly had to admit it was > canon and therefore didn't give much credence to the conspiracy theories. > > Well, you know the saying. Sometimes it's better to stick with your > first impression. :grin: You're probably right. But I don't think it even matters. I'm just happy that there is a plausible canon friendly interpretation of events that leaves Harry open for ships with other characters in Fan Fic. I have three great ideas for post HBP fics that don't involve H/G and I don't want to torture canon more than I have to. Like the saying goes: Fan fic exists to correct the author's mistakes ;) phoenixgod2000 From imontero at iname.com Wed Aug 10 23:37:57 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:37:57 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: <20050810183520.64389.qmail@web53112.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137236 Geoff wrote: > I pointed out that real love is the sort of love demonstrated by > Christ on the Cross - not love being crooned about but real, > strong, deep love unyielding in its aims to care for others and to > put their needs in front. "Greater love has no man...." etc." Juli wrote: it isn't the "I love you, let's get married love", or the "I > love to play soccer", it's beyond that, Love is all that and much > more, love makes us move, love is the reason why people sacrifice > themselves, love keeps us alive. I completly subscribe to July and Geoff theory. Moreover, we have canon pointing out to the strong possibility of having "Agape" love being the force to vanquish Voldemort. As Juli said, Agape love is a force that makes you go to any extent in order to save the person you love or even persons that you have never seen in your life. This kind of love is a constant in the books: Lily's sacrifice, James' sacrifice, Sirius sacrifice for his friends, Harry saving Wormtail, Harry saving himself from Voldemort possesion thanks to the love that trascends the fear of death. Even the concept of live debts is linked to this kind of love. This force renders the person fearless, this is why Voldemort doesn't know about this power and this is how Harry will vanquish him. Luna From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 05:44:01 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:44:01 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? WAS: Re: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: <20050811024543.59870.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: sgwood01 wrote: > "Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? > JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is > sort of restricted - you'll find out why." (from Quick Quote Quills) > > First, the question says 'had', rather than 'have' which suggests > that the spouses belong in the past, rather than the present. Juli wrote: Not necesarily. The question is in Present Perfect, so it has to have the "HAD", if it was "have", it'd be incorrect. This tense refers to something that begun in the past and is still going on, so it can be that they HAD spouses or they still HAVE them. I don't believe Argus Fitch (sp?) is Mr Tobias Snape... but Irma Prince could be Mrs Snape. We'll just have to wait 2 years and see! Juli ends.. Doddie here: One cannot play the past tense game here as the books take place in the past. I just had to add that I always wondered why on earth Filch would be bandaging Snapes leg in PS/SS.... After HBP and what Snape did to Malfoy after the Sectus. incident...It really makes no sense at all that Snape would search out "squib healing" after his fluffy injury.. However if Filch is "Snapes Daddy"...a whole other realm here... (Hence Filch is constantly patroling third floor corridor...hence Snape may have wondered how the mauraders god around so well...and, after following them around for months if not years, perhaps he tipped off his father to confiscate EVERYTHING off the mauraders (even papers-parchment)--and like the twins, after they gave Harry the map..they(the marauders) no longer needed it so never went back to retrieve it.) I am off to read both Filch's and Snape's reaction to Mrs. Norris' petrification in COS...strange how fast Snape showed up on the scene in this so quickly in this one. Strange how Filch sniffed out Harry in the library-- in PS/SS...uncanny how Leg. Occl. Snape is always prowling the corridors the same time Filch is..(happened again in GOF) Doddie (who has wondered about many things in the series...but Snape accepting bandaging from Filch in book 1 makes very little sense in book six...more than a subtle clue IMO...the anvil left a massive lump..going to ice it now..) From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 06:02:26 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:02:26 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > No doubt most of us are very certain that one of the Weasley's will be > leaving us forever in the next book, if not more than one. Mrs. > Weasley's woes (OoP) are not negligible. > > Anybody got any clues as to who it might be? > **snip** > Ongj. Doddie here: Unfortunately, given how book six went, with the forshadowing in book five...I think it may be Molly... If anyone is going to make a sacrifice before Harry...it will be Molly... If sacrifical love is not introduced early in book seven...it may be Percy, yet I'm still leaning towards Molly... I hope Harry will go to the wedding so that all the Weasley's and friends have at least a fighting chance--which leads to someone on the guest list leaking info., and the opportune chance for Victor Krum to come back into the picture as a guest at the wedding...After all, JK did say we'd be seeing him again...and he was a no show in book six--so he shows at the wedding or a horcrux is in/around Durmstrang.) Doddie, (who wonders if a horcrux may be at Beaubatons as well, and also likes Fluer because she, more than Percy is entirely more appreciative of Harry's saving a sibling--a thank you is not too much IMHO!) From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 06:23:20 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:23:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...> wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" > > Max wrote: > > The problem is only minutes later, Ginny and Harry are once again > > in close proximity in Slughorn's train compartment and Harry shows > > no sign of being 'oddly attracted' to Ginny. In fact, Ginny is > > surrounded by five boys, and none of them show any signs of giving > > her any more attention than would be expected. Surely if she were > > wearing LP perfume we should expect to see some sort of odd > > behavior from the boys but we don't. > > Pat responded: > The fumes from the most powerful love potion made Harry feel > content, with no outward signs or actions to show that he was being > effected, pg 183 US. He sat at the table with it for the rest of the > class with no unusual behavior. > > Ginny can't be wearing Amortentia, or Harry would be smelling > treacle tart and his Firebolt, too, so it has to be a weaker love > potion. So why couldn't the effects of a weaker potion just make > Ginny popular with the boys? On page 150, Pansy says "a lot of boys > like her", and Harry and Ron agree Ginny is too popular for her own > good. Max responds: Point taken about the other four boys, though I still think there would have been more than the usual glances her way if this is really a LP we're talking about. However, we *were* privy to Harry's internal thoughts and feelings during that scene and during the brief conversation immediately following. If she's wearing love perfume that helps her to be so popular with the boys then why is Harry so completely oblivious to her "charms" in this scene. It's like he can't wait to get away from her to go spy on Draco. If you ask me, maybe it's Draco wearing the LP! :grin: Personally, I don't think Ginny needs love potion to be popular with the boys if that's all we're talking about here. Up until the age of 13, she was probably more shy around boys because of her crush on Harry. Not to mention the physical changes a girl can go through at the ages of 14 and 15 are quite significant. A girl, who at 13 drew no attention from the boys, might become very interesting indeed at 14 and 15. That coupled with the fact that she became more vivacious and confident around boys is a strong enough reason for me to believe her seemingly sudden change in popularity with the boys. > Pat wrote: I might be dead wrong, but I still see it as a viable possibility for a twist. Max responds: Well never say never, right? Especially with JKR. :) In the absence of the interviews, I personally would be more open to the possibility of a romantic twist in Book 7. However, I can't see how her statements on the matter of H/G can be denied, unless we're going to completely misconstrue what she said. It seems to me she was being up front and honest about her shipping choices here. And it's important to note that JKR has never lied to us about anything in the books. She's been cryptic, and withholding of information, but she's never out and out lied. So if she says that Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry, then I think we're meant to believe it. We don't have to like it, mind you, but I think we can assume that the facts have been laid out for us - ie. H/G, R/Hr. Unless someone dies, i think we should assume these will be the ships at the end of the series. Anyway, that doesn't mean we should stop imagining all the various plot possibilities even though many of them will never make it to canon. Half the fun of the books is speculating about them. And the wonderful world of fanfiction will remain alive and vibrant long after the series has sealed all it's fates. Max From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 11 06:44:14 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:44:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A few thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <875563876.20050810234414@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137240 Tuesday, August 9, 2005, 2:16:53 PM, Geoff Bannister wrote: GB> Anyone got any ideas on this spell? I'm convinced it's GB> not "Sectumsempra" and I don't think it's the spell which Dolohov GB> threw at Hermione in OOTP. I was wondering if it could possibly be the same spell Narcissa threw at Bellatrix way back in Chapter 2: "Let go, Bella!" snarled Narcissa, and she drew a wand from beneath her cloak, holding it threateningly in the other's face. Bella merely laughed. "Cissy, your own sister? You wouldn't--" "There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!" Narcissa breathed, a note of hysteria in her voice, and as she brought down the wand like a knife, there was another flash of light. Bella let go of her sister's arm as though burned. "Narcissa!" -- Dave From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Aug 11 06:48:38 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:48:38 -0000 Subject: Draco's Choice (was:Re: The Twins are bad, Harry is bad, but Draco is good...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ehteshamulh" wrote: Ehtesham: > So, let us not solely remember Draco as he stood, allegedly > choiceless, in front of his Headmaster with a slightly lowered wand. > Let us also remember him as, with full freedom of choice, he lied to > try and take the life of an innocent hippogriff, or dishonoured the > death and the memory of a Triwizard champion. > > Choices, not abilities, did someone say? So be it. Geoff: Indeed yes. But - we have the choice to change our choice. I can think of many occasions over the years when I have had second thoughts and altered decisions I had taken previously. Can I remind you of good old St.Paul - to whom I made reference in message 137071 - who definitely changed his public image for the better. I don't think Draco will become a saint but I haven't written him off; he's just another of the bunch of very human characters wom JKR presents to us "warts and all". From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 07:09:20 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:09:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137242 Max said: If she's wearing love perfume that helps her to be so popular with the boys then why is Harry so completely oblivious to her "charms" in this scene. It's like he can't wait to get away from her to go spy on Draco. If you ask me, maybe it's Draco wearing the LP! :grin: Now me: One of the reasons I have a problem with the whole Harry/ Ginny subplot is this inconsistency. One moment not there, the next big `monster' crawling out of the chest, and the next `poof': gone again. But, I agree with you Maxine I think what you see is what you get. Max said: Well never say never, right? Especially with JKR. :) In the absence of the interviews, I personally would be more open to the possibility of a romantic twist in Book 7. However, I can't see how her statements on the matter of H/G can be denied, unless we're going to completely misconstrue what she said. Now me: I agree. Without the interview, any number of theories might be entertained in order to explain away glaring inconsistencies in characterisation and quite large and obnoxious plot holes. But alas, I think it's not a matter of JKR being more brilliant than we gave her credit for but less brilliant (in my opinion of course). I think she's explained how she sees things in the interview and, regardless of whether we think it was well done or very badly done, we merely have to accept it. I really do think she just isn't very good at writing romance. I think, from what I see in the interview, she thinks it should all be very self-evident. (JMO please don't shoot me. I don't have the energy to duck ;)) Sienna From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 11 07:09:55 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:09:55 -0000 Subject: HBP Posts (OT sorry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > I've uploaded a excel file with the index of post-HBP posts, so far > I've only organized about 3000 (until July 28th), but I'll continue to > update it. I hope it helps. I only put the message number on which the > thread starts. There're only about 1500 messages left, I'll try to do > them this week > > Cheers > > Juli Wow, Juli, what an amazing effort! That is incredible..thank you so much for doing this... susan mcgee if you'd like to join HP for Grownups Over 40, it has 50 members, not 18,000-plus..this list..is it the largest Yahoo list in the world? Anyway email me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com. I'll also tell you about my latest HP quiz. From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 11 07:23:53 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:23:53 -0000 Subject: my hopes for the next book was Re: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > > No doubt most of us are very certain that one of the Weasley's will > be > > leaving us forever in the next book, if not more than one. Mrs. > > Weasley's woes (OoP) are not negligible. > > > > Anybody got any clues as to who it might be? > > > **snip** > > Ongj. Well, if I were writing these books (anyone hear about the young woman who rewrote the whole book, claimed she knew better than JKR about Harry, and casted herself as Harry's love....)... I would have Percy killed when Delores Umbrage tried to put the Cruciatus Curse on Arthur or Molly..... But of course, if I were writing the books, Susan Bones would be the MoM.....Snape (after "killing" DD who was ALREADY dying) would save Harry, and Harry would say "I was wrong about you, Severus"...Rubeus and Maxime would have been leading the giants against Voldemort...Hermione would be mobilizing the house elves...and ...well....Lupin would kill the werewolf who bit him.... Arthur Weasley would succeed Susan Bones as Minister of Magic...Delores would be reduced to selling apples in Diagon Alley...Harry would become an Auror, Mad Eye Moody would teach Harry everything he knew and Harry would spend most of the rest of his life hunting down dementors, and rogue giants and trolls, and DEs....accompanied by Ginny...and Harry would have a few moments through the veil to talk with James, Lily, Sirius and Albus..... Susan McGee amidst the Redwoods in Humboldt County, CA From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Aug 11 09:11:49 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:11:49 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137245 > Saraquel: > I think it was Snape's worst memory, because at that point he was a > coward in his own eyes. He chose to save himself by defaming and > disowning Lily. Ouch. He then blames James, a boy he already > hates, for `forcing' him into this situation. This is why Snape gets > apoplectic at being called a coward by Harry ? because he knows, > deep down, that he was one in that scene. This is why he is so > remorseful when he finds out that Lily and James are the target > (there may be other reasons as well), and why he goes to DD, in an > effort to expunge his cowardice. This is why his hatred for James > only increases, because he blames James for the fact that he > rejected Lily publicly, and then James got `his' girl. > > IMO, he wants to hide the memory not just because James has him > hanging in the air with his undies drying in the breeze and he > doesn't want Harry to see it: he hides it because it is the thing he > is most ashamed of. It might have been a memory totally unrelated > to Harry that Snape was most ashamed of and he would have wanted to > hide it from Harry. The important thing is that Snape did not want > to give Harry any insight into his vulnerabilities. > Julia: Yes, I agree with you. I too think that this memory is Snape's worst not because what actually happens but how Snape sees this events by himself, his attitude towards them. I think that this scene has a big emotional value for Snape and it might be because of how he treated Lily... I think that Harry wasn't able to recognize the true reason why Snape hid this particular memory, but all the same the potions master want it out of his sight. IMO only Snape knows what truly happened then and why this memory is so precious... You tell us about Snape thinking himself as a coward cause how he behaved towards Lily. But IMO it's the lost chance that bothers him. He probably thinks that if he hadn't called Lily Mudblood he would have had a chance in a relationship with her... Of course there is also James who listen to Lily nad do what she orders him to. Maybe Snape sees this scene as a first step taken by James and Lily towards what resulted in a happy family... It's basically waht you wrote in your post but I just wanted to add my slightly different POV :D I'm also wondering what does it tell us about Snape? How this choice of memories show us Snape? It's really sad how Severus can't get past his childhood dissapointments and move forward... How much is he really misunderstood? Julia who wonders if Lily helped Snape because she liked him or because she hated James... From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 11 09:33:27 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:33:27 -0400 Subject: LOVE saves the day in the end + Dumbledore's Pensieve Message-ID: <007301c59e57$bb2f26a0$26c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137246 SSSusan: >>I am DESPERATE to see such a scene, Saraquel. Before JKR stated what she stated**, I know we had arguments here that: 1) Harry wouldn't have seen anything because he was lying in his cot/crib; and 2) any memory he did have would be quite incomplete or just sensory information because he was so young. CathyD now: Unfortunately, though, JKR also said: "Harry didn't see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) and, as I say in 'Philosopher's Stone', all he saw was a flash of green light." (In response to a question about why Harry didn't se the Thestrals at the end of GOF.) I think he's going to have to attain that memory from the other person who *was* at Goderic's Hollow that night. Snape possibly? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 11 09:42:59 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:42:59 -0400 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? Message-ID: <007701c59e59$0fa3fb10$26c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137247 >> Dead Dumbledore looks remarkably > like Portrait!Dumbledore, peacefully asleep.>> Jeanette >>And the portrait is one thing that does puzzle me. IF Dumbledore is dead, then surely his portrait should "wake-up", but it does not. CathyD now: Ah, but those former headmasters/headmistresses *fake* sleep all the time, don't they? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 11 09:50:02 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:50:02 -0400 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise Message-ID: <007b01c59e5a$0c0003e0$26c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137248 Sue W >>But what if the besmirching and befouling was actually a response to the book (her book, the book of a full blood) finding its way into the possession of Harry (a half-blood)? CathyD now: But her son, Severus, is a half-blood as well, isn't he? If she had such a big prejudice against half-bloods, why did she, a pure-blood, marry a Muggle? Oh, right, (if you believe it) she was already pregnant by someone else (pure-blood - wait isn't that Dean's backstory?) and *had* to get married, and married the first Muggle - oh, love potion anyone? - that crossed her path. It couldn't have been Voldemort, as has been speculated, as JKR said he has no children. Has Voldermort any children JK Rowling replies -> No. Voldemort as a father... now that's not a nice thought. Sorry, I know, I think this is four. I'm stopping now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 09:50:46 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:50:46 -0000 Subject: LOVE saves the day in the end + Dumbledore's Pensieve In-Reply-To: <007301c59e57$bb2f26a0$26c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > SSSusan: > >>I am DESPERATE to see such a scene, Saraquel. Before JKR stated what > she stated**, I know we had arguments here that: 1) Harry wouldn't > have seen anything because he was lying in his cot/crib; and 2) any > memory he did have would be quite incomplete or just sensory > information because he was so young. > > > CathyD now: > Unfortunately, though, JKR also said: "Harry didn't see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) and, as I say in 'Philosopher's Stone', all he saw was a flash of green light." (In response to a question about why Harry didn't se the Thestrals at the end of GOF.) I think he's going to have to attain that memory from the other person who *was* at Goderic's Hollow that night. Snape possibly? > Saraquel: I'll just have to slip this one in quick as it's an illegal over the limit post - No, the jury is still out for me on this one Cathy - you could argue that Snape did not see James and Sirius in the exam room as he was busy writing til the end, but there they were in the pensieve memory. Even though little Harry didn't see/understand his parent's death, he was present at the time and the pensieve could re-create the whole scene for him. Admitedly he will have to find someone to show him how to extract his memory, but Slughorn could do that. Also, how is Harry going to find out that Snape was at GH? Will he find a pair of grey underpants in the wreckage, perhaps? :-) Saraquel From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Thu Aug 11 10:19:08 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:19:08 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > But see, and this is something I haven't read people saying yet-- > Harry's eyes being like his mother's has already yielded the greatest possible result: Slughorn told Harry the truth about the night Tom Riddle asked about Horcruxes, and by doing so, allowed Dumbledore to take the fight against Voldemort to his weakest part: his fear of death. That is certainly a valid point, but I remember JKR stating in an interview that we would find out the important things about Lily in 2 parts. 1 in book 5 and 1 in book 7 (not book 6). > I, personally--and this is just my own personal view--honestly cannot believe that Snape was in love with Lily and that he's going to look into Harry's eyes at the end of Book 7 and suddenly act differently *because of that alone.* He's been looking in to Harry's eyes for 6 years and he still despises Harry. OK, I'll agree that it is the thing I find most difficult to reconcile with. Also can't see Snape sitting down and explaining his reasons to Harry!! But I will cling to the fact that Snape has always seen James in Harry as they look very alike, and Snape thinks they behave the same way too. He has never seen Lily in Harry - yet! >Also, IMO there is no canon for the "Snape is in love with > Lily" theory. IMO there is a lot of evidence/canon for this. 1. We know the SLug Club existed before & we know that Lily & Snape were two of Slughorn's favourite (or at least most talented) students. 2. DD says that the Potter's deaths were the greatest regret of Snape's life. Lupin finds it difficult to believe because Snape hated James. If we believe both DD and Lupin, then that leads us to the fact that the death of Lily is the greatest regret of Snape's life (any other theories greatly accepted!!) 3. In her last interview, JKR stated that Lily's popularity was hugely important! If we agree that Snape is also going to greatly affect the outcome of the series, then it seems that the most important people (other than HArry) wrt to the final confrontation are Lily & Snape! > > Finding the Horcruxes? Probably not. But breaking the curses on > them to destroy them? That will take a fair bit of time IMO. But it was interesting to see Bill described as a curse breaker in HBP. Harry finds them - Bill destroys them! What do you think? Brothergib From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 11:09:36 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:09:36 -0000 Subject: LOVE saves the day in the end + other love threads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137251 > > SSSusan wrote: > > It's the > > combination of these things -- love/compassion/concern for others > >+ the willingness to sacrifice which will be the (somehow!) fatal > > combination for Voldy. > > > > Here's how I have always seen it playing out. In the end, Harry > >will come, probably solo, to the understanding that he must > >sacrifice himself. He will be willing to do so because of his love > >for (many)others -- **not** because of romantic love for Ginny, but > >because of deep, compassionate, altruistic agape love & concern for > >others. > > > > But here's the TWIST I'm hoping for. Harry will come to believe > > this, and he will come to DECIDE that he will sacrifice himself, > >thus ensuring (somehow! -- leaving this up to JKR's magical > >creativity) Voldemort's demise. However, in the process of > >offering himself up, Harry will (somehow!) discover, quite > >surprisingly, that he does not NEED to die. The belief & the > >willingness to have died will turn out to have been enough. > > > > Geoff wrote: > >This is why I objected a few days ago when someone wrote something > >like "That's why I don't want Harry to win by using (ugh!) love." I > >pointed out that real love is the sort of love demonstrated by > Christ > >on the Cross - not love being crooned about but real, strong, deep > >love unyielding in its aims to care for others and to put their > needs > >in front. "Greater love has no man...." etc." > Fascinating posts...especially when you consider the interview that JKR revealed that anyone who read her books would know what faith she practices (paraphrasing) which of course has been posted many times here, is the Christian faith. I've thought about it a lot, and while I don't feel Harry is a Christ archetype, there are similarities. Looking through the lens of the Bible, the greatest love of all is not love for those who love you, not even the love a mother has for a child which is unconditional and powerful. It is love for your enemies. Now that's just not the absence of revenge towards them, that is deep, positive regard and wanting the best for your enemies. It states quite clearly that Christ was unique as he willingly laid down his life for his enemies. (And please do not think I am using this thread to evangelise, I am merely stating what I believe the Bible teaches and how it relates to JKR's admission and the climax in book 7.) To me, that would be the most powerful weapon in the MOM. Now how JKR might go that way, I'm still thinking about that one! Cindy From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 11:35:13 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:35:13 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: <007701c59e59$0fa3fb10$26c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137252 Jeanette: And the portrait is one thing that does puzzle me. IF Dumbledore is dead, then surely his portrait should "wake-up", but it does not. CathyD now: Ah, but those former headmasters/headmistresses *fake* sleep all the time, don't they? vmonte: Plus the poor guy must be tired. This reminds me of JKR's comments after GoF as to why Harry didn't see the thestrals on his trip back to the Dursley house. He should have been able to by then but JKR didn't want to introduce something new at the end of the book--so she waited. Vivian From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Aug 11 12:18:19 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:18:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Choice (was Draco's Choice ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137254 Betsy Hp: (with many snips) > Honestly, I think that when Dumbledore gives Draco a benediction of > sorts, > So Dumbledore again reminds Draco that he has a choice here. > > > And again, Draco chooses not to kill Dumbledore. And so again, > Dumbledore delivers his benediction. > > This is followed by that incredibly powerful exchange: > > "You're at my mercy...." > "No, Draco," said Dumbledore quietly. "It is my mercy, and not > yours, that matters now." (592) > > And Draco, with the freedom to choose finally returned to him, > lowers his wand. Even with the temptation of the four Death Eaters, > who five times by my count try to turn Draco into a killer, Draco > shows us (and Harry) who he truly is: he is not a killer; he is an > innocent. > > > I think the true measure of Draco's worth will be found in book 7. > Thanks to Dumbledore, Draco will finally be allowed to make the > choices that will show us who he is. Based on his first major > choice, I think Draco will turn out well. > Potioncat: Lovely post, Betsy. It's taken me awhile to get my thoughts together to respond, and I've read the other reactions to this one as well. Here are two quotes from JKR about HBP: ********************************************************************** **************** Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview July 16, 2005: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince publication day Edinburgh, Scotland But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion ? how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself. But then he's playing with the big boys, as the phrase has it, and suddenly, having talked the talk he's asked to walk it for the first time and it is absolutely terrifying. And I think that that is an accurate depiction of how some people fall into that kind of way of life and they realize what they're in for. I felt sorry for Draco. Well, I've always known this was coming for Draco, obviously, however nasty he was. Harry is correct in believing that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore, which I think is clear when he starts to lower his wand, when the matter is taken out of his hands. Grossman, Lev. "J.K. Rowling Hogwarts And All," Time Magazine, 17 July, 2005 Granted, we know Harry will not succumb to anger and evil. But we never stop feeling that he could. (Interestingly, although Rowling is a member of the Church of Scotland, the books are free of references to God. On this point, Rowling is cagey. "Um. I don't think they're that secular," she says, choosing her words slowly. "But, obviously, Dumbledore is not Jesus.") ********************************************************************** **************** Potioncat: JKR knew what she was doing when she said, "DD is not Jesus". Frankly I'm surprised we haven't gotten any `take this cup' and `Jesus and the two thieves' posts. At the beginning of the tower scene DD is injured, but still very much in control. He hexes Harry, banters with the DEs, shows his disapproval of Grayback, and waxes philosophical with Draco. Physically he appears to get weaker, but mentally he is strong. "It is my mercy and not yours that matters now." DD is not talking about a witness protection program. He is talking about something magical. He gives Draco the choice (3 times) and finally Draco chooses. So far as we know, (and of course, we don't know) Draco has not yet performed an Unforgivable Curse. He started to say "Crucio" in the bathroom, but was interrupted. Harry has gotten farther than that! In the remaining frantic moments of the evening, Snape will prevent Harry from performing Unforgivables. It appears to me that it is important to DD and Snape that these boys do not perform that level of Dark Magic. Separate from any theories of whether this outcome had been planned, whether it is an AK, whether Snape is ESE is this idea: DD did not incapacitate Draco as he could have. He left him fully able to make a decision and to act upon it. I really don't think DD needed a wand to overcome Draco, even in his weakened condition. Draco makes his choice. He is not going to kill DD; and DD does not want Draco to be killed. Snape arrives. Draco has failed to kill DD and Snape must do so or die himself. He could take on the other DEs and go down fighting them. It's not clear at this point what DD's real condition is and whether he could fight as well, if his wand were at hand; nor whether DD could survive afterwards without Snape to help him. But DD has made a choice. He is the sacrifice. He is doing something of magical importance. This sounds very much like Lily's sacrifice, although I'm not sure if he sacrificed himself for Draco or Snape, or both. (If Snape is ESE, then DD has given his life to protect Draco. If Snape is loyal and following orders, DD has sacrificed himself for both.) By having Snape perform the spell, Draco is kept innocent of both murder and of performing an AK. If Snape avoided a real AK, he may have done less damage to his soul (assuming there are levels of damage) or he may have taken on the "sin" of an AK to protect Draco from the consequences. Snape as sin-eater; yet a new role for the Potion Master. When Harry gets back to DD's body, DD's face is peaceful. Whatever the final cause of his death, he died prepared and at peace and having set something in motion. God knows, I wouldn't be at peace if I were AKed or fell off a tower, but then, I wouldn't sacrifice myself for a toe-rag like Draco. Potioncat From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 12:32:32 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:32:32 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137255 Valky: I like Last Judgement Love, a lot. Because it *is* terrifying. Geoff: We've had this sort of discussion more than once in the past. I fail to see how you can write off certainly sacrifice and loyalty as sentimental. A long way back, in message 110643, I wrote this: "I think this takes us back to the old question of what do we mean by love? The word is a catch-all. "I love you", "I love strawberries and cream", "Don't you just love the way he scores points over the other guy?" Jen: I talked about compassionate love at one point on this thread, feeling Dumbledore symbolizes this. And Saraquel replied: "To me, Last Judgement Love (for want of a better phrase) is the highest form of compassion....It destroys evil in the soul, leaving it pure, and in knowledge of its true nature, rather than damming it to eternal torment." Valky: I am glad that Saraquel put it into those words for us, I didn't feel all that comfortable trying to describe in in my own words, they would have been quite less brilliant I think but I'd have been trying to make them mean much the same as that. The words pure, unhidden and honest came to mind. And I think whats really telling us this in the HP series is the way JKR points out that there isn't anyone without anything to hide, (save Lily for now... but that may change before too long, we can't take it for granted that she'll stay perfect) but one big difference between the good major characters and the bad major characters is that when the good major characters are faced with their dirty laundry (oh now that might be where I should look at Snivelly's pants ... oops digression back to the point) such as Sirius when he is faced by Sirius about the Pensieve incident and DD admitting his mistakes, James when he realises that Snape is in mortal danger, and Harry when he's faced with the results of his bad deed toward Draco, these characters are faced with something similar to the Agape, or Judgement love that we're talking about from within themselves. They cannot hide from it, and many of the major canon good things they have done are based almost wholly on the fact that they *don't try* to hide from it. This is something I have tried to put forward in defense of James before, regarding his actions in the Pensieve. And it relates to the name Snivellus and to James and Sirius contempt for Snape and (albeit overdone) sense of self righteouness about their own actions. On the basis of this theme of humility toward Agape, which I have long believed draws a strong underline throughout the series, I have campaigned that James and Sirius *thought* 1 that they were right and 2 that their choices overall demonstrated them to have a greater sense of righteousness and humility than Snape even while they were stupid arrogant bullying toerags. In my defense before anyone gets feisty ;D I have always maintained that they we *wrong wrong wrong* about it, but they stood anyhow on the same principle that caused James to save Snape and Sirius to remain ever loyal to his best friends to the point where he will have sacrificed himself for them. And I think the DD knew that they were shakily standing on this principle hence why he would often seem to not be punishing them severely enough in Snape's young eyes, because DD saw them as needing a firm guidance on that principle, not a dressing down of it. If you've read to here, without me having offended some of your long held views on certain characters, then you're probably wondering *how* the bullying could have in any way or shape seemed to the boys themselves to be revealing better character than Snivellus. I realise I lost a lot of people who take a long line on bullying = bad full stop about two paragraphs back, so I'm assuming that most people reading here would be at least partially interested in the deeper goings on in the pensieve. So here again is my take on it. Sirius and James give Snape the name Snivellus because they see him as a Sniveller. A Sniveller in the same sense of the contemptible behaviour of Peter Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack. ie the :I didn't, my old friends... *LIE*, I couldn't I am too powerless against it all to be the bad guy line that "snivelling" Peter takes in the shack to save his own skin. All of us find this highly contemptible in Peter, and Sirius is no exception. At last after HBP I *finally* have canon backing for this... (Thanks JKR!) and that backing is in Harry's detentions with Snape. The James and Sirius v Snape feud went on for many years. I will always take Sirius as honest! (so shoot me ;P) so when he says Snape never missed a chance to hex James, then I believe it. Snape was every bit a willing participant in the feud. JKR says the feeling was mutual and canon suggests that so were the actions. And *yet* who is it that was man enough to face the music for his wrongdoings? Who spent week after week serving his detention and admitting to himself, to his best friends and, even to the love of his life, that he was picking on Snape a bit much... well that was James Potter of course. And who of the two, was never in detention although guilty of the same and possibly worse, seemed so completely feckless that a girl came across the lawn to defend him, and even some 20 years later still utterly denies he was anything but perfectly innocent of it all so much that he'd rather shift the blame to an innocent child than face the *truth* about himself.. well that would be Severus Snape. (A Sniveller) And therein is my point about the agape love being a strong and very *not* mushy theme through the series. Those that can open themselves to it, are eminiently able to turn the leaf and become better, and the one that will always hide from it is the one who doesn't know the power of this truth. If any Snape lovers are still reading, this is the reason I have for believing that Snape can be redeemed again. For the first time ever in the series I did see tiny glimpses of him in HBP *finally* facing his own truth and walking the path he laid for himself bravely, like a man ready to open himself to this Agape - Judgement love. There was also evidence in the potions book to me that Sevvie was always capable of it, he just had chosen to take the easy over what was right instead for some time. but I'll save that for another post. Jen: The point I made about all the good Dumbledore did for many people and creatures is really only half of the equation for compassionate love. I think we saw the other half in the cave, after Dumbledore drank the potion. I feel certain he was reliving the most terrible times in his life, times when he made mistakes and misjudgements about people and situations, leading to people or creatures being tortured or killed. It reminded me of a quote by Milan Kundera in The Unbearable Lightness of Being: "For nothing is heavier than compassion. Not even one's own pain weighs so heavy as the pain one feels with someone, for someone, a pain intensified by the imagination and prolonged by a hundred echos." Dumbledore tries to convince Harry in the Horcrux chapter how *little* it matters that Voldemort is more skilled. It's sort of like Fleur saying "I am good-looking enough for both of us, I theenk." Well, Voldemort is powerful enough for both of them, I theenk, and Harry only needs to follow the course he and Dumbledore started on and Voldemort will mess up the rest :). In his ignorance, Voldemort just keeps handing Harry the weapons of his own demise, one after the other. Valky: Yes ! I absolutely love these points Jen! And it's taken me a bit to stop giggling about theenking :P This wholeness of compassion is clearly why someone like Harry, although determined to stop Voldemort, won't be using an AK. But that's just fine because Voldemorts is deadly enough for both of them. Perhaps what Dumbledore realises is that but for the grace of Harry neither, perhaps noone, would survive Voldie rampagingly trying to live forever. GH is a good example to stretch some canon from. Notice how when faced with the prospect of death Voldemort has a tendency to destroy everything within wands reach of himself. Somehow, he manages to bring a whole house down around him! Surely if it wasn't for the amazing Love that Harry's parents had filled the air with before this it might have been a bigger landslide. And now, Voldie's 'greater and more terrible' than before. The chance of larger radius of collateral damage forsaken for his wanton self preservation could be what this means. To me, that seems to say that in vanquishing Voldemort, perhaps Harry's main job is not to carry out the actual killing, but to be the one thing that stands between Voldies determination to destroy everything so he can live, and the WW itself. Voldemort is his own cause of death, and Harry the reason that everyone else lives. Fairly obvious to say, that I like SSSusans take on it too. ;D (And perhaps as SSSusan suggested before, this could be one of the 12 uses for Dragons blood. ) I also do agree that Voldemort hands Harry the weapons of his demise, and the one that I think simply *must* figure in this equation is Harry's all important blood. Hey! I've just thought of a way the gleam can be wedged into this somehow, is it possible that while Voldie flails desperatley in meltdown destructive mode to survive whatever demon he brings upon himself, that in his haste he tries to save *his blood* forgetting that it's in Harry, and Harry in his deep love for everyone just stands there letting it hit him thinking, at least as long as I can stand here I can save just one more soul. Through all this somehow, Voldie doesn't realise that he's keeping Harry alive with all his superfluous effort, and hence not ridding himself of his own doom, but sending it to himself (his blood) by sending it at Harry. Ok so it's a bit deep and convoluted, but I could refine it.. I should probably answer other points in a different post, later. Just before I go.. Carol: P.S. Note to Valky: Didn't you suggest that some of the curses on the Horcruxes might have been Snape's inventions? I don't see how that's possible since he was about eleven when Voldemort returned from his wanderings, transformed beyond recognition, and began recruiting followers. All of the Horcruxes (with the possible exception of Nagini) would already have been created at that point. Valky: Oh yeah, good point. I threw it in offhand without thinking much about it, so I wasn't at all attached to the theory. Thanks for pointing out. :D From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Aug 11 12:33:59 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:33:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] ...The Young Princess? Message-ID: <13e.1904483f.302c9fb7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137256 Gatta writes: >Has anyone ever suggested that perhaps Hermione was adopted? That >would open up all kinds of interesting posibilities... Ray: I seriously doubt it. We've never been given any hint that Hermoine's parents aren't her parents. And even if it were the one subject Hermoine won't talk about, I'm sure she would have opened up to Harry, who is an orphan. On the other hand, Slughorn mentions that he once taught a wizard named Granger. Possibly Hermione's magical genes finally resurfaced in the Muggle branch of the family (or the other Granger was also muggle-born). -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 12:43:34 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:43:34 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137257 Jen: I snipped out this one idea from Marianne's post because it's been nagging at me all day. I returned to the Edinburgh book festival notes, where JKR made this comment to the question, "Is Petunia a Squib?" "Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess." The only thing I can think of related to being a Squib is denying your own magical powers. We see in HBP that Tonks loses some of her powers because of emotional upset. And Merope cannot use magic until she's away from the influence of her abusive father. So could you completely lose your powers if you deny having them? If Petunia has always lived as a Muggle, she must be as good at compartmentalizing her feelings as Snape is! And that would mean denying Lily and all she stands for. Petunia's perceived hatred for Lily was not jealousy, but contempt for her *choosing* to openly live the life of a witch. vmonte: Petunia is definitely the witch that will show powers late in life. I also think that Petunia was definitely jealous of the attention Lily received from her parents--hence Harry now receiving nothing but contempt from the Dursleys. I don't see a moment of enlightenment for Petunia either, but it would be nice. I have a bad feeling that the Dursley house is going to be attacked in July when Harry turns 17. The DE's will be prepared for a confrontation with Harry but not with Petunia. It sounds like this late bloomer, according to JKR, is suppose to show signs of their power during a moment of crises. I remember reading a story once of a jeweler that went berserk during a burglary. Armed gunmen came into his store to rob him and his wife, who also worked there. The jeweler panicked, grabbed his gun, and started shooting wildly. After it was all over, not only did he hit all the gunmen, he also inadvertently killed his wife. I could see Petunia lose it in this way. Vivian From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Thu Aug 11 12:44:53 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:44:53 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? WAS: Re: Snape as having been loved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137258 "Rebecca Hoskins" wrote: > That is a very good point! Especially when you consider the description > that is given of her (Irma Pince) on p 288 of HBP; > "They waited and a moment later the vulture-like countenance of Madame > pince appeared round the corner, her shunken cheeks, her skin like > parchment and her long hooked nose illuminated unflattteringly by the > lamp she was carrying." There is actually an almost parallell scen earlier in the book, this time Snape being the one carrying the light. "A lantern was bobbing at the distant [---] It was not until the glowing yellow light was ten feet away [---]that he recognised [---]the uplit hooked nose and long, black, greasy hair of Severus Snape." (HBP p. 152) Marika From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 11 13:12:55 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:12:55 -0000 Subject: GH in Harry's memory(was: LOVE saves the day in the end + Dumbledore's Pensieve) In-Reply-To: <007301c59e57$bb2f26a0$26c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137260 SSSusan previously: > > I am DESPERATE to see such a scene, Saraquel. Before JKR stated > > what she stated**, I know we had arguments here that: 1) Harry > > wouldn't have seen anything because he was lying in his cot/crib; > > and 2) any memory he did have would be quite incomplete or just > > sensory information because he was so young. CathyD replied: > Unfortunately, though, JKR also said: "Harry didn't see his parents > die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) > and, as I say in 'Philosopher's Stone', all he saw was a flash of > green light." (In response to a question about why Harry didn't see > the Thestrals at the end of GOF.) I think he's going to have to > attain that memory from the other person who *was* at Goderic's > Hollow that night. Snape possibly? SSSusan again: Except that you snipped out the part of my post which explained why this *is* still possible. When JKR was discussing, in her recent interview with Melissa & Emerson, how memories viewed in a pensieve work, she said this: "It's reality. ...But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things ***that you didn't notice the time.***" [Emphasis added.] Here's a little more from that segment of the interview: JKR (continuing on from where I stopped quoting, above): "It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere." And then this, which is really key: "MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself? JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive." SSSusan again: So I think she's saying there that you *didn't* have to observe or notice things the first time to be ABLE to observe them via the pensieve. IOW, if you were there, you *have* the memory -- the COMPLETE memory -- you just need to pull it out and put it into the pensieve in order to get the "reality" of it, the fullness of it. While it's in Harry's head, it may be just sensory stuff -- green light, screams, and such -- but pulling it out and placing it in a pensieve would allow him to get into the WHOLE thing and explore what he didn't observe as a tot. At least, that's how I interpreted what she said. I'll still grant you that we might well discover what happened at GH from another person who was there -- I've long thought that was a distinct possibility. But I think that JKR's explanation to Melissa & Emerson gives us the news that that wouldn't be necessary in order for us to get the description, that Harry's memory would suffice. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 13:19:48 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:19:48 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137261 Just a general comment about things in this thread.. ** oops just deleted the accidental post (sorry)** Ok to start, I am beginning to think it's almost a *given* that Pince is Snapes Mother disguised and Hidden from Voldie. But as for Filch, I don't really know whether to think that he would be Tobias. Some things that go against it.. Argus seems able to recall an age when students were whipped as punishment for misdeeds. It's highly doubtful that this would exist under DD's Headmastership. Filch tries to learn a little Magic for Squibs from a mail order kit. It would seem pretty pointless for a Muggle to try it, and call himself a Squib too. Snape likes him, now I know it's not proven canon, but it's likely that Snapes actual father was very abusive of his wife and child. Sevvies not exactly the character I'd hold out big hope for being forgiving of sins against him as a child, so if it was Tobias, I'd be more inclined to say it's in character for Snape to be resentful of him. The Fors are - that Filch talks to Snape a lot and that they are interested in each other's concerns in a seemingly personal way. But these could all be simply related to Filch's relationship with Irma while we are proposing that she is Sevvies Mum. I am pretty confident that Filch is Filch, but I can't dismiss that Pince is Eileen, it all seems very obvious to me. Valky From mariabronte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 13:36:36 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:36:36 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137262 Wanted to respond to some thoughts in this absolutely great thread :-D Valky: > I like Last Judgement Love, a lot. Because it *is* terrifying. >I think this takes us back to the old question of what do we mean by > love? The word is a catch-all. "I love you", "I love strawberries > and cream", "Don't you just love the way he scores points over the > other guy?" Jen: > I talked about compassionate love at one point on this thread, > feeling Dumbledore symbolizes this. And Saraquel replied: "To me, > Last Judgement Love (for want of a better phrase) is the highest > form of compassion....It destroys evil in the soul, leaving it pure, > and in knowledge of its true nature, rather than damming it to > eternal torment." Now Mari: This is something I've been turning over in my mind a lot in relation to the Harry Potter series. JKR certainly seems to be leading us towards a concept of love that is not just a feeling, it is a *choice*. Love can mean choosing to do something that totally goes against your inclinations, but you do it anyway because it is the right or necessary thing to do. It is very easy to think of love as a 'mushy' feeling; agape/last judgement love has little to do with our feelings and everything to do with the choices we make in relation to other people. The loving choice is not always the choice we want to make. The loving choice is not always the easy choice. The loving choice can mean sacrificing reputation, friends, trust, or even your life, if necessary. > Valky: > If any Snape lovers are still reading, this is the reason I have for > believing that Snape can be redeemed again. For the first time ever > in the series I did see tiny glimpses of him in HBP *finally* > facing his own truth and walking the path he laid for himself > bravely, like a man ready to open himself to this Agape - Judgement > love. There was also evidence in the potions book to me that > Sevvie was always capable of it, he just had chosen to take the > easy over what was right instead for some time. but I'll save that > for another post. Mari again: Yes, definitely. If Snape was acting according to Dumbledore's orders in a similar way to Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink the potion in the cave, this is a clear example of making a terribly difficult choice for the sake of love. For Harry and Snape to do what they did, their 'love' *could not* be based upon their feelings; it must be a conscious choice. I've outlined in previous posts that I think there is some evidence in earlier books of Snape making similar difficult choices that in no way benefit him, and they just keep getting harder. It is all the more difficult for Snape as he has not had a lot of practice with this mindset as he was growing up, I can imagine. > Jen: > The point I made about all the good Dumbledore did for many people > and creatures is really only half of the equation for compassionate > love. I think we saw the other half in the cave, after Dumbledore > drank the potion. Mari again: We also saw Harry's love for Dumbledore being put to the test; the easy choice would be to refuse to give Dumbledore the potion. The loving choice is to do what he knows is necessary to accomplish the task they came to do. This sort of love can seem harsh. It isn't separated from compassion though; when you truly love someone, you usually feel love for them. However, the next step is to do what is right/necessary/loving even when your feelings rebel against it. This is the love that Harry is learning, and one of the reasons I believe Snape will be important in the last book whatever his role turns out to be. Harry will face one of his ultimate tests; showing last judgement love towards Snape, when his feelings about Snape push him towards hate rather than love. He has had practice though, in an easier situation; sparing Peter's life in PoA. Fascinating Fascinating stuff :-) Mari. From bunnyc at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 11 10:14:20 2005 From: bunnyc at optusnet.com.au (Bunny) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:14:20 +1000 Subject: Is Tonks a traitor to the Order? Message-ID: <001c01c59e5d$70d79190$5fdceddc@dee> No: HPFGUIDX 137263 CathyD: "I do believe there is/there will be a spy within the Order. That goes pretty much without saying. There was last time, there will be this time. I don't believe it will be Lupin. My opinion is for somebody more like a Ludo Bagman...someone who *thought* they were giving information to the right side when they were actually passing info to one of LV's spies at the Ministry. My best guess would be Tonks who still works at the Ministry with the Aurors. Who are Proudfoot and Savage, anyway?" Now Bunny says: I'm reading the book for the second time and it's got me puzzled how Draco is communicating with Voldemort. Hogwarts is under strong protective enchantments; no-one can apparate in or out; owls are being checked; yet he tells Moaning Myrtle that 'unless I do it soon.....he says he'll kill me.......'. That seems to indicate that there's a go-between passing messages back and forth between Draco and Voldemort........who could it be? I like CathyD's theory that it could be Tonks........she certainly keeps popping up unexpectedly in all sorts of places without a good reason. At first I thought she had been assigned to keep a close eye on Harry, but it could be a more sinister reason.......she certainlyhas the run of the grounds as well as the castle. Apologies if someone has mentioned this before. Bunny. From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 11 13:54:00 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:54:00 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" > wrote: > >Also, IMO there is no canon for the "Snape is in love with > > Lily" theory. > > IMO there is a lot of evidence/canon for this. > > 1. We know the SLug Club existed before & we know that Lily & Snape > were two of Slughorn's favourite (or at least most talented > students. Yes, but that doesn't contradict all of the other info we have were Snape appeared to despise Lily because of her parentage. > 2. DD says that the Potter's deaths were the greatest regret of > Snape's life. Lupin finds it difficult to believe because Snape > hated James. If we believe both DD and Lupin, then that leads us > to the fact that the death of Lily is the greatest regret of > Snape's life (any other theories greatly accepted!!) Snape tells DD this, but IMO it doesn't necessarily prove anything as we have no idea if Snape was telling Dumbledore the truth. Plus we know, from DD's own comments about his judgment and from JKR's comments that DD makes "emotional" mistakes that DD has somewhere made a mistake. For the record, I think it's trusting Snape. IMO Snape is on one side: his own. He would have said anything to DD to get into Hogwarts and he's an accomplished enough wizard to possibly fool a soft-hearted person like DD. Even if I weren't convinced of that, it's not logical, in the strictest sense of the word, to draw the conclusion that Snape loved Lily from those comments. > 3. In her last interview, JKR stated that Lily's popularity was > hugely important! If we agree that Snape is also going to greatly > affect the outcome of the series, then it seems that the most > important people (other than HArry) wrt to the final confrontation > are Lily & Snape! Again, IMO, this is extrapolation not tied to anything in the books or interviews. That's fine, but that is not what I would consider to be a theory based on canon. I understand that speculation is part of the process, but I take an entirely different tack toward it. I understand that the mileage of others may vary. ;-) > > Finding the Horcruxes? Probably not. But breaking the curses on > > them to destroy them? That will take a fair bit of time IMO. > > But it was interesting to see Bill described as a curse breaker in > HBP. Harry finds them - Bill destroys them! What do you think? I think Bill will teach Harry how to recognize curses and what kinds of things to try to break them--a crash course in curse-breaking, but that Harry will do them himself (albeit with help from time to time). jujube From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 11 14:04:42 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:04:42 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Petunia is definitely the witch that will show powers late in life. ??? JKR has said, quite directly and distinctly, that this is not the case. ----------------- http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival Sunday 15 August 2004 Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet. ----------------- JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do magic, and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. Second, I think it's pretty clear with Book 6 that Merope is the person how uses magic late in life. The magic late in life comment goes back to 1999: ---------------------------------- http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0399- barnesandnoble.html Barnes and Noble interview, March 19, 1999 Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing you speak, when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly wait until you tour again. Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my favorites. That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. ---------------------------- Merope was thought to be a Squibb; we learn she is not. It is the magic she does which is the pivotal point for the entire book; without her late magic there is no Tom Riddle/Voldemort, and without Tom Riddle/Voldemort, there is no series. > I have a bad feeling that the Dursley house is going to be attacked > in July when Harry turns 17. The DE's will be prepared for a > confrontation with Harry but not with Petunia. It sounds like this > late bloomer, according to JKR, is suppose to show signs of their > power during a moment of crises. As you can see from JKR's own comments, Petunia will not be doing magic. :-) jujube From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Aug 11 14:06:37 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:06:37 -0000 Subject: CoS was almost HBP: What does that mean? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137266 In our discussions about HBP, I don't think I've seen a discussion of one salient fact that came up in JKR's interviews, that she almost named the second book HBP. Furthermore, she said that no trace of the HBP storyline remained in CoS, as she thought the story more appropriate for sixth year as opposed to second. Now, this raises all sorts of interesting questions. Her statement implies that she originally intended for some of the events in HBP to happen in the second book. Which ones? And what does that mean for the importance of the events of HBP? Does that make them more important, or less important? And does that cast any light at all on the infamous question of Severus Snape? First of all, I suppose it probably means that Harry was going to use the HBP text (or some version thereof) in second year. Otherwise I don't know how he might have "interacted" with the prince. But does that mean that Snape originally was to have been the DADA teacher in the second year? How was Harry going to get his hands on the book? If Snape had been teaching potions surely he would have noticed Harry using his old formulas. Of course if you are one of the people who argues that Snape MEANT Harry to use his old book in HBP, I suppose the same might have happened in CoS, except that the whole idea of Snape wanting Harry to use his book seems like a remote and contrived possibility to me -- as contrived as many of the Puppetmaster!Dumbledore theories. How could he have known Slugworth would give the book to Harry? Or was the original book of the prince not going to be a potions book at all, but something like a diary? And what about the plot that DOES exist in CoS as we have it? Would Ginny still have used Riddle's diary? Two mysterious diaries/journals in one book seems like overkill (which may be part of the reason JKR moved the HBP plot). Does this mean Snape was originally to have left Hogwarts at the end of CoS? Does this mean that Dumbledore was to have died in the second book (something I highly doubt)? Does this mean that the popularity of Snape's character caused JKR to change her mind (I've always thought she doesn't have things plotted out as firmly as she likes to claim) and keep him around longer? Or maybe she just thought a reversal (apparent or not) in his character would be too soon after his saving of Harry in PS/SS. Does any of this have any bearing at all on Snape Evil or Good? I don't see how, frankly. I could see some version of HBP happening in second year with Good!Snape, Evil!Snape, and OutForHimself!Snape. Anyway, what does everyone else think? Lupinlore From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 14:11:39 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:11:39 -0000 Subject: DoubleAgent!Lupin was In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin > > >>The smoking wand is the disappearance of Fenrir. Last we > > saw, he was stupefied. Miz Storge: Pippin, I just reread that part last night. Four Death Eaters stormed up the stairs: the brother and sister, Fenrir and "the Death Eather with the brutal face". She clearly says the Death Eather that was Petrified was "the brutal faced one". But I haven't found exactly what happened to Fenrir, either. Must keep re-reading, but I THOUGHT he ran past Harry in the chase. Lynette From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Aug 11 14:29:31 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:29:31 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > ----------------- > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 > J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival > Sunday 15 August 2004 > > Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? > > Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a > Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the > other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little > bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out > what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. > Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet. > ----------------- > > JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do magic, > and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. Hickengruendler: I do not think that Petunia is the one who will do magic late in life. However, whoever it is (even if it was Merope, who was thought to be a Squib), their status has to change. I mean, it is either a muggle or a squib, who does magic late in life, and once they have done it, they aren't a muggle or a Squib anymore. Therefore I wouldn't rule Petunia out. > > Second, I think it's pretty clear with Book 6 that Merope is the > person how uses magic late in life. The magic late in life comment > goes back to 1999: > > ---------------------------------- > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0399- > barnesandnoble.html > Barnes and Noble interview, March 19, 1999 > > Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in > the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than > as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing you speak, > when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly wait until > you tour again. > > Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my favorites. > That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost > always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a > character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic > quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing > about. > ---------------------------- > > Merope was thought to be a Squibb; we learn she is not. It is the > magic she does which is the pivotal point for the entire book; > without her late magic there is no Tom Riddle/Voldemort, and without > Tom Riddle/Voldemort, there is no series. > Hickengruendler: But would you call Merope's situation desperate circumstances? You could say that she was in desperate circumstances, when she was abused by her family. And she was also in desperate circumstances after Tom left her and she was pregnant with his child. However, those were the times when she did not do any magic. She only did manage some magic to bewitch Tom, and however madly she might have been in love, I wouldn't count her situation in this point as desperate. To me, it sounds as if someone is doing magic to protect themselves from a great danger. From ushit_k at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 14:16:40 2005 From: ushit_k at yahoo.com (ushit_k) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:16:40 -0000 Subject: Reflections on Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137269 Hi All, So far in the series we have seen Voldemort accumulating many magical handicaps. These are 1. To regenerate He used Harry's blood, (the gleam in the eye of Dumbledore), thus causing some sort of weakness. What exactly this weakness is will perhaps be revealed in book 7. 2. He has a servant who owe's a life debt to Harry. At some critical moment in the final battle I think that this will be critical. 3. A soul that is brutally battered. 4. Afraid of the unknown. A control freak? 5. A cursed half life for slaying and drinking the blood of the unicorn. In addition to this he has the following non magical weakness: 1. Inability to trust anyone and a propensity to operate alone and in secrecy. 2. A tendency to make complicated plans. For example to get the prophecy he could have taken polyjuice potion (transforming himself into Lucius Malfoy) got in the chamber of records, taken the prophecy. He could then have taken polyjuice potion again and gone on his merry way. I think that a combination of the above will be instrumental in defeating him. An inability to trust others will mean that some important task or piece of information will stay with him, when someones help or perspective would have helped. Then a trap will be laid out for him. The bait will be some trophy he desires greatly (magpie tendency) like Gryfindors sword. Here the order will combine their talents to defeat him, with the life debt causing wormtail to freeze at some crucial moment. Perhaps at the crucial moment the curse of the unicorn will weaken him. The coup de grace being delivered by Harry. UshitK--long time lurker. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Aug 11 14:50:49 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:50:49 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137270 Valky wrote: > Ok to start, I am beginning to think it's almost a *given* that Pince > is Snapes Mother disguised and Hidden from Voldie. Potioncat: I understand the logic, but I don't think it holds up. Hermione shows the boys a picture of Eileen. No one says, "Wow, she looks like Madam Pince!" Nor do either of them say, "Well, we know where Snape gets his nose!" As often as they've seen Madam Pince, I would think they would recognise a picture of her taken in her teens. No I think JKR chose the name Pince for the library fine of "a pence", although I've long ago forgotten where I first heard that idea. And I think Prince is for the word-play. Can't figure out the name Eileen...doesn't sound very wizarding. <> Valky: > The Fors are - that Filch talks to Snape a lot and that they are > interested in each other's concerns in a seemingly personal way. But > these could all be simply related to Filch's relationship with Irma > while we are proposing that she is Sevvies Mum. > > I am pretty confident that Filch is Filch, but I can't dismiss that > Pince is Eileen, it all seems very obvious to me. > Potioncat: I haven't seen any canon to show Filch and Snape are friendly towards each other. Yes, Filch helped Snape bandage his leg. Yes, Filch reports to Snape. But it seems more of a working relationship in which Snape is fairly high in Administration and Filch is very low in Labor. IMO, Filch is a Squib who has worked a very long time at Hogwarts. He is not Tobias. And, back to a snipped bit, it isn't certain that the shouting man is Tobias either. From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Thu Aug 11 14:56:36 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:56:36 -0000 Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > > > 2. DD says that the Potter's deaths were the greatest regret of > > Snape's life. Lupin finds it difficult to believe because Snape > > hated James. If we believe both DD and Lupin, then that leads us > > to the fact that the death of Lily is the greatest regret of > > Snape's life (any other theories greatly accepted!!) > > Snape tells DD this, but IMO it doesn't necessarily prove anything as > we have no idea if Snape was telling Dumbledore the truth. Plus we > know, from DD's own comments about his judgment and from JKR's > comments that DD makes "emotional" mistakes that DD has somewhere > made a mistake. For the record, I think it's trusting Snape. > that, it's not logical, in the strictest sense of the word, to draw > the conclusion that Snape loved Lily from those comments. > I guess it all comes down to whether you believe that DD could misjudge Snape. The problem is that this is clearly such an important point, that JKR has only given us a few clues within her books as to the possible answer, and these clues are open to interpretation. IMO DD would never make such a mistake on such an important matter. It would devalue his character enormously. Also, Snape's behaviour often suggests that he is on the side of good! In GOF his reaction to what DD asks him to do to counter VOldemort seems genuine. In OOTP it is clear that Snape ensures that the Order rush to HArry's aid in the MOM. In HBP he flinches as he makes the unbreakable vow In HBP he doesn't kill anyone except DD, despite the ease with which he could have In HBP DD is begging Snape. DD would not beg for his life, would he? In HBP he continues to attempt to tutor Harry as he escapes And, IMO, most damning of all, is his reaction to Harry's comment of Coward. Again IMO, it doesn't make sense that if Snape had finally killed DD and freed himself of Hogwarts, he would care what Harry said to him. He would be elated and not react this way. What makes more sense, IMO, is if Snape has just been forced to kill DD (on DD's orders) to ultimately help Harry (someone he doesn't think is up to the job) and is then called a coward, he might not be able to control his temper!! I completely understand your desire for hard evidence, but unfortunatley it doesn't exist at present. Therefore I try and apply logic to the tiny bits of evidence there are. Once I decided that Snape was good, then his regret for the Ptter's death (and particularly Lily's) seems genuine! It all comes down to that first point about could DD be wrong about Snape. Do you honestly believe that DD would make such a huge error! Brothergib (determined to convince you!!) From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 11 15:04:00 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:04:00 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" > wrote: > > > ----------------- > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 > > J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival > > Sunday 15 August 2004 > > > > Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? > > > > Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a > > Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the > > other books. You might have got the impression that there is a > > little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will > > find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very > > good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being > > shockingly indiscreet. > > ----------------- > > > > JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do > > magic, and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. > > Hickengruendler: > > I do not think that Petunia is the one who will do magic late in > life. However, whoever it is (even if it was Merope, who was > thought to be a Squib), their status has to change. I mean, it is > either a muggle or a squib, who does magic late in life, and once > they have done it, they aren't a muggle or a Squib anymore. > Therefore I wouldn't rule Petunia out. ??? Muggles cannot become witches or wizards. JKR has also made that clear if you reread the quote below which I supplied in my previous post--adults do not learn magic, so adult Muggles are always going to be non-magical. Also Squibbs cannot do magic. They are the counterpart to Muggle born witches like Hermione. On one hand you have magical people coming from completely non-magical families, and on the other hand, to provide a literary/structural/thematic parallel and balance, you have non-magical people coming from magical families. Either way, it the bottom line is the same: you can either do magic from birth or you cannot. With respect to Merope: there is a signficant distinction between appearing to be a Squibb and being a Squibb. We know, from HBP, that people who are very upset or very sad or depressed can reduced magical abilities--that's the reason for the "Tonks is miserable" subplot. That is not the same as being a Squibb. > > Second, I think it's pretty clear with Book 6 that Merope is the > > person how uses magic late in life. The magic late in life > > comment goes back to 1999: > > > > ---------------------------------- > > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0399- > > barnesandnoble.html > > Barnes and Noble interview, March 19, 1999 > > > > Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students > > in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, > > rather than as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and > > hearing you speak, when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I > > can hardly wait until you tour again. > > > > Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my > > favorites. That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my > > books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age > > 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate > > circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very > > rare in the world I am writing about. > > ---------------------------- > > > > Merope was thought to be a Squibb; we learn she is not. It is > > the magic she does which is the pivotal point for the entire > > book; without her late magic there is no Tom Riddle/Voldemort, > > and without Tom Riddle/Voldemort, there is no series. > > > Hickengruendler: > > But would you call Merope's situation desperate circumstances? You > could say that she was in desperate circumstances, when she was > abused by her family. And she was also in desperate circumstances > after Tom left her and she was pregnant with his child. However, > those were the times when she did not do any magic. She only did > manage some magic to bewitch Tom, and however madly she might have > been in love, I wouldn't count her situation in this point as > desperate. Living in a disgusting hovel, a virtual slave to an abusive and possibly insane father, with a brother who is insane and tortures and kills animals and possibly humans as well, with no hope of escape, sounds pretty desperate to me. > To me, it sounds as if someone is doing magic to protect themselves > from a great danger. It may be so; I don't know what is in JKR's head. But it won't be Petunia who does so. jujube From rt11guru at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 15:12:44 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:12:44 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137273 Potioncat: No I think JKR chose the name Pince for the library fine of "a > pence", although I've long ago forgotten where I first heard that idea. Guru: It could also come from pince-nez, spectacles with out ear pieces that are held on by pinching your nez (nose). An appropriate name for a schoolmarmish character. As far as Filch, I haven't seen anyone put forth the opinion that he might be the one who comes to magic late in life. He's a squib, he's been around Hogwarts enough to have picked up knowledge of spells, charms, and hexs. Sort of the "Good Will Hunting" of Hogwarts. Guru From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 15:12:01 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:12:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137274 Brothergib: > IMO DD would never make such a mistake on such an important matter. It > would devalue his character enormously. Alla: Not to me, it would make me sympathise with him even more and pity his last minutes even more. Brothergib: > Also, Snape's behaviour often suggests that he is on the side of good! Alla: Hmmmm, maybe or maybe not. :-) Brothergib: > In GOF his reaction to what DD asks him to do to counter VOldemort > seems genuine. Alla: His reaction seems genuine, but do we know for sure what he was reacting to? Brothergib: > In OOTP it is clear that Snape ensures that the Order rush to HArry's > aid in the MOM. Alla: No, it is far from clear, IMO, in fact what is interesting as Neri showed that Snape waited several hours for some reason before notifying the Order. Brothergib: > In HBP he doesn't kill anyone except DD, despite the ease with which he > could have Alla: Well, if you subscribe to the theory that Snape knew second part of the prophecy it is very easy to answer why Snape did not kill Harry, because he wants Harry and Voldie to fight it over and then to kill the winner. Brothergib: > In HBP DD is begging Snape. DD would not beg for his life, would he? Alla: I agree DD would never beg for his life simply for the sake of staying alive, BUT I absolutely can see him begging IF he feels that eh did not finish all the tasks yet,which he planned. Such as - finishing Harry's training. I also can absolutely see DD begging for Snape not to sacrifice his soul by committing murder. Brothergib: > In HBP he continues to attempt to tutor Harry as he escapes Alla: Another interpretation is that Snape is simply gloating. Brothergib: > And, IMO, most damning of all, is his reaction to Harry's comment of > Coward. Again IMO, it doesn't make sense that if Snape had finally > killed DD and freed himself of Hogwarts, he would care what Harry said > to him. He would be elated and not react this way. Alla: Why not? What if Harry's comment was connected to the events of Snape's past? What if he indeed WAS a coward at one point of his life and Harry's comment reminded him of it? It makes perfect sense to me, personally. :-) I know that I would be upset if anybody calls me the adjective( any kind of it) which I know I am not proud of, but which reminds me of some kind of mistake I made. So, yes, Snape reaction at being called a "coward" strikes me as "protests entirely too much" Brothergib: > It all comes down to that first point about could DD be wrong about > Snape. Do you honestly believe that DD would make such a huge error! > Alla: Most definitely. Especially since he already made so many of them, IMO. Just my opinion obviously, Alla. From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 04:49:51 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 04:49:51 -0000 Subject: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair/Ravenclaws wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137275 Ehren: > The only problem with this being the final horcux is that > Voldemort wouldn't let something so valuble be sitting in a wand > shop where people are constantly walking by it day in and day out > and Ollivander wouldn't be able to just let Neville have it (even > if the wand did choose him) unless it was Voldies plan to do so. Rachel again: This is a good question. Why would LV put the wand in a very obvious place? We could ask who had this wand once it was turned into a horcrux? Could the DE who was in charge of it try to get rid of it (a la Mr. Malfoy in CoS?) for personal gain? Maybe Mr. Ollivander, having made the wand, tried to reaquire it after Ravenclaw died? Who could have owned the wand in between Ravenclaw and getting it back to the shop? That's redundant...sorry. Just rephrasing, I guess. Ehren: > (by the way, Rachel I was looking at your email, do play the clarinet? > If so rock on! Us muscian/HP fans must bond together thru the internet) > I'm ironing my hands now for going briefly off-topic. It won't happen again. Rachel: I'll give a brief answer to this as well...My husband is the clarinetist (you guessed it...it was clarinet & nut put together...he truly is one!) I'm a cellist myself. I'll bang my head against a chest of drawers as punishment. From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 15:21:47 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:21:47 -0000 Subject: RL/SB SHIP Canon Evidence (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137276 As has been previously metioned, two essays regarding canonical evidence for the RL/SB ship can be found at: http://www.livejournal.com/users/elwing_alcyone/11152.html and http://www.livejournal.com/users/blacksatinrose/102275.html Here's my thoughts. Some of this follows the two above essays closely, so thanks to Elwing and Blacksatinrose. I actually found most of the subtext in PoA to be indicative of the enduring quality of their friendship rather than a more intimate relationship between them. Remus' composure is broken when people mention Sirius (he drops his briefcase, etc.). Who among us would drop years of suspicion and anger in a moment and embrace the person you believed had helped murder two of your best friends 'like a brother'? That's powerful friendship. Speculation about The Hug? Most non- shippers assume that's the point all RL/SB shippers start from. From Harry's point of view, it was 'like a brother'. That's his interpretation. Would Harry have known how two men who loved each other would look when they hugged? (Shrugs). Minimal importance anyhow. Moving on, we are shown that Remus is very much IN control when Sirius is OUT of control, and very protective of Sirius. Sirius is likewise protective of Remus. (Note: at this point in the movie, we are given Snape's analysis of their relationship, but we're not supposed to discuss the movie here, right?) Anyway, can't argue about one thing - they were certainly very good friends. We all want friends that supportive and understanding. In GoF, there's just the order by Dumbledore to Sirius to "lay low at Lupin's". I found that interesting speculation only because she tells us Lupin HAS 'a place". I'm merely curious as to where Remus lived, and how he paid his bills. OoTP is where I found "canon fodder" and came around. -Lupin pulls out his wand and taps on the door of Number 12 Grimmauld place. Everybody else rings the bell and awakens Mrs. Black. Lupin has the key, or has been apparently accepted as a member of the household in a way others aren't. On p86 b/91 US, Lupin leaves the table to shut up Mrs. Black's portrait. Again, that seems very much a job of an official member of the household. Then on p 110 B/96 US we are told, "...Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius...". Not "Lupin,who was staying there to save money" or "Lupin, who was staying in the house to be close to the Order." JKR could have said anything she wanted, but she was specific - he was stying there *with* Sirius. Definitely a member of the 'new' family at Grimmauld Place. The question is, does 'like a brother' still apply? Well,if it had been, say Tonks, who was staying in the the house with Sirius, I'd think *not* like a sibling. -The forty line stare (pp84-85 B/ pp88-89 US).This is the discussion at the dinner table about how much to tell Harry which begins "Lupin's eyes were fixed on Sirius" and ends 40 lines later with Lupin "looking away from Sirius at last". They look at each other A LOT. Ignipes from Fiction Alley noted: "Reading through the scenes in which Remus and Sirius both appear, something I notice is that we ALWAYS know when they are looking at or touching each other. Always. Even if Harry is the focal point of the scene, JKR makes a point of telling us when Remus looks at Sirius, when Sirius looks at Remus, when one of them touches the other, even in the most casual way." Referring to PoA, Elwing did a count and found 45 pages when Remus and Sirius were together. In those pages, they look at each other 15 times, Ron and Hermione look at each other 9 times and Harry and Hermione look at each other 5 times - that includes the times when Harry looked at Ron AND Hermione. JKR seems to be making a point here - maybe just that Remus finds his friend unpredictable and wants to be ready to do damage control. Maybe not. Not all of us saw HP/GW coming even though JKR says it was there. -The joint Christmas gift. Lupin hadn't even written to Harry before, and while the absence of gifts before or after OoTP are explainable because of Remus' financial situation, there were no cards or letters after this either. -Snape's pensieve. At least one girl is noticing Sirius, and James is checking out the girls. But Sirius is just looking canonically gorgeous...Being handsome is not proof of orientation, of course, but the fact that he's attractive and *not* noticing the girl who finds him so is interesting. In fact, throughout the books we find hints about everyone else's orientation - Dumbledore blushes at a compliment by Madame Pomfrey, James looks at the girls by the lake etc., but JKR hasn't given us any clues about Remus and Sirius - until the RL/NT references in HBP, which seem unrequited on Lupin' part. -Harry calls Grimmauld Place through the fireplace. Lupin answers, fetches Sirius and kneels down to join the conversation. I found that to indicate Remus was feeling comfortable enough at the house to listen in on Sirius' call on the other phone so to speak. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel comfortable about doing that at any of my friend's houses. -HBP. As I've said before, I do not accept that Tonks has been herself. She's graceful, her manner of speech is different, her Patronus has changed. I need more subtext to accept RL/NT. I really don't like to debate ships, but I've now pointed out the canon evidence for RL/SB, such as it is. Please check out the essays above, make up your own mind and whatever you decide , please be cordial to the poor shippers, whatever their particular One True Way may be! Slainte', Lynette From riberam at glue.umd.edu Thu Aug 11 15:25:31 2005 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:25:31 -0400 Subject: Snape's worst memory - my own take on this In-Reply-To: <1123736205.2126.46893.m34@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123736205.2126.46893.m34@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137277 An interesting thread has developed starting with the following comments by greg and valky: On Aug 11, 2005, at 12:56 AM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > >> So is this Snape's worst memory, not because of what we saw, but what >> we were about to see? We know that Snape pulled Harry out of the >> memory before it reached its conclusion. Is there something >> additional that we're missing? >> >> greg > > Valky: > I really agree with you there Greg in some ways. It is likely that the > other two memories where the prophecy memories, they would be > pertinent to take out to avoid a big conflict in the Occlumency > lessons. I still believe that they may instead have been memories he > was hiding from Voldie but if perhaps DD set some specific protection > around the room to prevent Voldie getting in during the lessons > (protecting Snape for teaching them also) then it would make sense > that the memories where removed where removed to stop Harry seeing > them. But I like your take on them anyway. The thing I mostly agree > with of all is that Snape's Worst Memory might actually be the worst > because of wht we didn't see, rather than what we did.. Maria's opinion now: I like this idea, that the worst part of the memory is what we didn't see. After all, what we saw was an embarrassing memory, but was it really that bad? The worst in his life? If it was indeed his worst memory, there must be more to it. On the other hand, this conflicts a bit with a pet theory of mine regarding the famous worst memory. This theory started even before HBP, but it got stronger after I read the book. I think I have mentioned this theory before, but now it's improved with what we learned in HBP. Here it goes: I believe that Snape pulled the memory on purpose for Harry to see. Why would anyone who has something to hide do it in front of the person you want to hide it from? If Snape really wanted to keep this memory of his secret, he had plenty of time to pull it out of his head and into the pensieve before Harry showed up for class. Harry didn't need to know at all that Snape was hiding anything. However, Snape waits for Harry to arrive, from day 1, to do this. In my opinion he is teasing Harry by doing so, and Harry of course is really curious about this, so much that at the first chance he gets, he looks. Not only was Snape's behavior provoking, but also what we see in the pensieve is more damaging to Harry than to Snape. Really, what did we see? A kid being teased by some bullies, but who hasn't been teased? Who doesn't have an embarrassing memory? Does this really qualify as a "worst memory ever"? Unless the worst part is what came next, which I agree is a very appealing prospect, I think that seeing this memory hurt Harry more than it did Snape. Now, after reading HBP, I have some additions to this theory. Although JK has said that the memories stored in a pensieve are objective, we know now that one can cut and paste them. Dumbledore tells us not only that, but also that Slughorn did a pretty bad job at it. But, wouldn't someone like Snape be much better at it than Slughorn? He is pretty powerful with mind-related magic: Occlumency, Legilimency, non-verbal spells... I am sure that he could do a good job at the cut-and-paste of memories. And here is my addition to my own theory: Snape not only put that memory there to provoke Harry and to show him that his dad was a bully, but also cut the parts that incriminated himself as being as bad as those who were bullying him. I am pretty fond of this theory, but I welcome any comments that will break it apart :) Maria First post after the HBP... finally catching up with all the several thousand messages. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 11 15:33:26 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:33:26 -0000 Subject: DoubleAgent!Lupin was In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137278 > > > Pippin > > > >>The smoking wand is the disappearance of Fenrir. Last we > > > saw, he was stupefied. > > Miz Storge: > > Pippin, I just reread that part last night. Four Death Eaters stormed up the stairs: the brother and sister, Fenrir and "the Death Eather with the brutal face". She clearly says the Death Eather that was Petrified was "the brutal faced one". But I haven't found exactly what happened to Fenrir, either. Must keep re-reading, but I THOUGHT he ran past Harry in the chase. Pippin: ::slams fingers in the oven door:: Sorry, Fenrir was placed in the full body bind, and so, come to think of it, was the fellow on top of the tower. It's Scrimgeour who says the DE on top of the tower was stupefied. Shows he's a busy man, I guess. Or it makes us think, like Jo's perpetual carelessness about how many students there are, that maybe she just forgot to tell us about Fenrir. But I'll bet she didn't. It's difficult to tell how many DE's there were. After Fenrir is PT'd, and Amycus is hit with impedimenta, Harry sees McGonagall, Ron and Lupin each fighting a separate Death Eater, and Tonks fighting the big blond one beyond them. The one McGonagall is fighting is identified as Alecto, so there are at least two more, besides Fenrir unaccounted for, since Harry only sees Snape, Draco, Amycus, Alecto and the big blond one running for the gates. Pippin From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Aug 11 15:33:35 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:33:35 -0000 Subject: CoS was almost HBP: What does that mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137279 Lupinlore: > In our discussions about HBP, I don't think I've seen a discussion > of one salient fact that came up in JKR's interviews, that she > almost named the second book HBP. Furthermore, she said that no > trace of the HBP storyline remained in CoS, as she thought the story > more appropriate for sixth year as opposed to second. > > Now, this raises all sorts of interesting questions. Her statement > implies that she originally intended for some of the events in HBP > to happen in the second book. Which ones? And what does that mean > for the importance of the events of HBP? Does that make them more > important, or less important? And does that cast any light at all > on the infamous question of Severus Snape? > Julia: Well, I think that JKR said that the plot of HBP was at first meant to be in the second book but I haven't herad anything about JKR actually consiering naming the second book HBP. If you have some quotes I'd really like to see them... However if it comes to HBP's plot that could have been used in Cos I think it was the part about horcruxes and the past of Voldemort. IMO THAT part of HBP would belogically connected with the whole CoS storyline. Probably she planned to tell Harry through DD about the past of Tom Riddle - his childhood, parents, grandparents as well as his character and some mysteries involving him (his disapearance after school, his wanting to be a teacher etc). She may also intended to introduce some memories that DD managed to retrieve... I think that she planned to introduce idea of horcruxes as well but if she had done this she wouldn't have been able to say as much as she was in HBP so she erased the whole plot and placed it in the sixth book. The parts of CoS that may be previosly connected with the erased plot of HBP could be: (those new things we learn from CoS) - Tom Riddle is a heir of Slytherin (in HBP it turnes out who was his grandfather, and how he was proud about his blood line, and he he despised his doughter and how she was in fact a blood traitor) - By destroying the diary the teenage Tom Riddle from the past vanished (in HBP it turns out that it was one of the horcruxes and by doing it Harry destroyed a part of Voldemort soul) I dont think that JKR has ever intended to put such parts of the HBP plot as: Snape teaching DADA or Harry learning Potion from HalfBlood Prince in CoS Just my thoughts Julia From zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 15:12:32 2005 From: zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com (zeldaricdeau) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:12:32 -0000 Subject: CoS was almost HBP: What does that mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137280 lupinlore wrote: > Her statement implies that she originally intended for some of the events in HBP to happen in the second book. Which ones? zeldaricdeau now: This certainly isn't the most interesting of possibilities but as a jumping off point Perhaps one link to the HBP textbook was that Hermione originally used it to brew the Polyjuice Potion? Although the text she takes the instructions from in CoS is "Moste Potente Potions" in the restricted section, perhaps the information originally came from the HBP's textbook. Doesn't the Advanced Potions text contain instructions for Polyjuice as well as Felix Felicis? Or am I remembering Slughorn's comments about what they will learn that year incorrectly (sorry, I can't get to my books right now)? Perhaps Hermione found this written-in copy tucked away in the library while searching for answers to the CoS dilemma? lupinlore wrote: > Does this mean Snape was originally to have left Hogwarts at the end of CoS? Does this mean that Dumbledore was to have died in the second book (something I highly doubt)? Does this mean that the popularity of Snape's character caused JKR to change her mind (I've always thought she doesn't have things plotted out as firmly as she likes to claim) and keep him around longer? Or maybe she just thought a reversal (apparent or not) in his character would be too soon after his saving of Harry in PS/SS. zeldaricdeau now: I, too, highly doubt that DD was meant to die in book 2. For that matter, Snape's real or apparent betrayal works, I think, because of how late in the series it happens. Plus, there are many duties that the Snape character fulfils within the narratives in books 3-5, mostly in furthering some of JKRs themes and helping to provide tension. She has said that she dearly enjoys writing Snape, but considering her determination to kill off Sirius despite her love and her fan's love of the character, I don't think she would keep Snape around either for herself or her fans. -ZR From dave1x2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 15:33:41 2005 From: dave1x2003 at yahoo.com (dave1x2003) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:33:41 -0000 Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137281 I am a new poster to this board, but have been enjoying all of your posts for some time now. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the void on some issues. Someone in some post recently said that the books are much more stratightforward than many here seem to think. I tend to agree. While the speculation about who is bad, who is good, and what the Book 7 twists might be are very creative and a lot of fun, I tend to think that many of them are pretty far-fetched. I'm mostly referring to good vs. evil. In a story like this, (especially in a "children's" book) the good guys always win. Also, Rowling has such love for her characters, I think it's pretty clear that the ones she has spent so long writing as good, will stay good. Having said that, there is no way I see Harry dying. It's possible he will have to sacrifice everything for the good side, but good will triumph in the end. And I believe he will get the girl in the end. He and Ginny's "break up" was written in a way that it's obvious they still like each other and will be together when Harry's duty is complete. Ginny has been written as the perfect mate for Harry, in this case completely understanding about his having to go. Rowling seems to be setting up a reuinion. About Snape. Obviously, Rowling has written Snape in a way that could make him either good or evil. I think that has been done brilliantly, and makes for great conversations. Honestly, I wouldn't be completely surprised if it turned out either way. But I think he's good, and here's why: Right now, he looks completely evil. If Rowling was going to go out of her way to make his allegiance ambiguous, it seems to be setting it up for a twist. A twist at this point would be to bring him back to the good side. I know there is the important line about DD making big mistakes, but I just don't see him being wrong about this. He has said too many times that he trusts Snape completely, and we still haven't found out why. I bet we will in Book 7, and it will all make sense then. Plus, DD is sort of a god figure in the books, nearly omniscient and omnipotent. I can't see him telling Harry (and Rowling telling the reader) to trust him so much, to find out he is wrong in the end. Again, good is usually good here. I think Dumbledore knew he (might?) have to sacrifice his life, and brought Snape in on his plan. That was what the argument Hagrid overheard was about, and that was what the "Please" was about at the end. I think the good side needed an "in" with Voldemort, and Snape is it. Which leads to DD's death. He is dead. I can't see Rowling asking the reader to invest so much emotionally into his passing and then pulling the rug out with a "clever disguise" or something. Like Obi Wan in Star Wars or Gandalf in LOTR, the wise old sage has to sacrifice himself, and the hero continue on to triumph. But like Obi Wan and Gandalf, he will have a way to come back and communicate. Obviously, there are many ways we've seen the dead talk to the living, so that will happen again. But he is dead. So that's my take on the big things. I was surprised about the RAB thing. I thought that was a strange and rather large twist to throw in this late in the game. If it took the greatest wizard ever and "the chosen one" to get the locket, and they almost died doing it, how did some random DE get in, grab the locket and leave a clever note? He must be incredibly powerful. He probably won't be, and that will just be another minor plot inconsistency, but it seems odd. I think Book 7 will be very action packed. There was so much exposition in 6 that now we can hit the ground running in 7 and start burning Horcruxes. Oh yeah, horcruxes. I think Harry is one. It makes a lot of sense with the whole running thread of Harry and Voldy being conjoined, and the lack of detail surrounding his mother's death. The way we are left, with the question about "what is the remaining horcrux?" leaves that door wide open. It would be a great twist, and make for a great final standoff. I kind of see the ending being like the end of Fight Club, where Ed Norton had to make the complete sacrifice of his own life to get rid of Brad Pitt inside of him. He lived, though, and so will Harry. Other predictions: Draco will be redeemed, but will never be friends with Harry, kind of like Snape has been. Percy will be redeemed, coming back to the family. Ron and Hermione will be together in the end (tough one, I know). But it will take until the very end, the battle being the primary importance of the book. Sirius will make a return, not from death, but to speak to Harry somehow. Aunt Petunia will do magic somehow, as has been hinted at by Rowling. Later. Dave. From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Aug 11 15:49:55 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:49:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RL/SB SHIP Canon Evidence (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005b01c59e8c$531fa500$d524f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137282 OoTP is where I found "canon fodder" and came around. -Lupin pulls out his wand and taps on the door of Number 12 Grimmauld place. Everybody else rings the bell and awakens Mrs. Black. Lupin has the key, or has been apparently accepted as a member of the household in a way others aren't. On p86 b/91 US, Lupin leaves the table to shut up Mrs. Black's portrait. Again, that seems very much a job of an official member of the household. Then on p 110 B/96 US we are told, "...Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius...". Not "Lupin,who was staying there to save money" or "Lupin, who was staying in the house to be close to the Order." JKR could have said anything she wanted, but she was specific - he was stying there *with* Sirius. Definitely a member of the 'new' family at Grimmauld Place. The question is, does 'like a brother' still apply? Well,if it had been, say Tonks, who was staying in the the house with Sirius, I'd think *not* like a sibling. -The forty line stare (pp84-85 B/ pp88-89 US).This is the discussion at the dinner table about how much to tell Harry which begins "Lupin's eyes were fixed on Sirius" and ends 40 lines later with Lupin "looking away from Sirius at last". They look at each other A LOT. Ignipes from Fiction Alley noted: "Reading through the scenes in which Remus and Sirius both appear, something I notice is that we ALWAYS know when they are looking at or touching each other. Always. Even if Harry is the focal point of the scene, JKR makes a point of telling us when Remus looks at Sirius, when Sirius looks at Remus, when one of them touches the other, even in the most casual way." Referring to PoA, Elwing did a count and found 45 pages when Remus and Sirius were together. In those pages, they look at each other 15 times, Ron and Hermione look at each other 9 times and Harry and Hermione look at each other 5 times - that includes the times when Harry looked at Ron AND Hermione. JKR seems to be making a point here - maybe just that Remus finds his friend unpredictable and wants to be ready to do damage control. Maybe not. Not all of us saw HP/GW coming even though JKR says it was there. -The joint Christmas gift. Lupin hadn't even written to Harry before, and while the absence of gifts before or after OoTP are explainable because of Remus' financial situation, there were no cards or letters after this either. -Snape's pensieve. At least one girl is noticing Sirius, and James is checking out the girls. But Sirius is just looking canonically gorgeous...Being handsome is not proof of orientation, of course, but the fact that he's attractive and *not* noticing the girl who finds him so is interesting. In fact, throughout the books we find hints about everyone else's orientation - Dumbledore blushes at a compliment by Madame Pomfrey, James looks at the girls by the lake etc., but JKR hasn't given us any clues about Remus and Sirius - until the RL/NT references in HBP, which seem unrequited on Lupin' part. -Harry calls Grimmauld Place through the fireplace. Lupin answers, fetches Sirius and kneels down to join the conversation. I found that to indicate Remus was feeling comfortable enough at the house to listen in on Sirius' call on the other phone so to speak. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel comfortable about doing that at any of my friend's houses. Sherry now: Excellent post, even though I don't believe romantic RL/SB at all. However, let me talk a little about friendship. i've always seen the relationships among the marauders--except for Wormtail of course--as an example of the true depth and strength of friendship. I have to go into my life for examples, so please bear with me. I have two truly amazing friends to mention here. First, let me say, that to me, friendship is the greatest gift we are given in life, because true friends stick by us, no matter what. So, I am currently living with a male friend. People could say, Sherry lives *with* Doug, but nobody who knows us would think there's anything to it beyond what there is, a brother and sister type of relationship. We've been friends for years, and when I needed a place to stay, he offered to let me come here. i answer his phone, I listen to his conversations, he listens to mine, i use his computer line. Before I moved in here, when we would visit each other's apartments, we would each help ourselves to food, showers, phone and whatever else. Neither of us would think of insisting that the other stand on ceremony and be treated like a guest. Even better is my friend, Joylene. She is married with four kids and her mom all living in the same house. When I visit, i make my own breakfast, help the youngest child get hers, get my own snacks, help with dinner preparation instinctively like one of the family, watch the kids, discipline the kids, answer the phone, do laundry, use the computer, answer the door, participate in family discussions and activities ... I even have keys, including car keys, and I don't drive. i am part of their family, more than I am of my own blood family. That's how I see the relationship between Remus and Sirius. It feels as natural and much like deep true friendship as my friendships do. Even the joint Christmas present seems like a gesture two friends would do, as I and my friends have done the same thing. I suppose as so much else in the books, we see this relationship through the prism of our own experiences, and I see Remus and Sirius as the glimpse of what the marauders once were. sherry From prep0strus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 15:56:40 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:56:40 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > No doubt most of us are very certain that one of the Weasley's will be > leaving us forever in the next book, if not more than one. Mrs. > Weasley's woes (OoP) are not negligible. > > Anybody got any clues as to who it might be? > I've been thinking Charlie, simply because we haven't been given too much attachment to him. There are going to be more deaths, plural, in 7, and JKR has to balance the ones we don't care about, with the ones we sort've care about, with the ones we really care about. Charlie's death would show the grief of the Weasely's, without incurring too much upsetness from the reader. If not him, I don't know... I do think it won't be Ron or Bill - I think Harry is more likely to die than Ron, who has to marry Hermione, and name his first son Harry if Harry dies, and his 2nd Albus... and Bill has already suffered mutilation, and is now set up to have a relationship I believe will carry through past the war. I hope the twins aren't broken up, and really, I don't want to see any of the Weaselys be lost, but I guess we'll see what happens. ~Prep0strus From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 11 15:57:30 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:57:30 -0000 Subject: Marriage at Hogwarts and in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137284 Prep0strus wrote: > >(snipped)...in general, marriage (and even rlationships) seem > > to remain hidden in JKR's world. This is especially visible at > > Hogwarts - I don't see why spouses couldn't live/work at the > > school.... Leah: > In a BBC online chat in 2001, JKR was asked whether any of the > Hogwarts professors 'had been married'. She replied that a number > had, but that the information 'was sort of restricted' for reasons > we would find out. There have been suggestions on this > board that there was a relationship/marriage between DD and Madam > Pomfrey.... I suppose another possibility is that Madam Pince is > not Snape's mother, but his wife.... SSSusan: There have also been speculations about a marriage/romantic relationship between McGonagall and Dumbledore. Personally, I think the ending of HBP probably puts that one to rest. Surely if MM had been DD's partner, the news would have come out and/or she would have reacted more strongly to his death? There has also been speculation at HPfGU that McGonagall was once married to Tom Riddle, perhaps even having a child with him. I believe this suggestion was raised in an attempt to explain why DD never did broadcast to the world "Lord Voldemort is really this half- blood kid I once taught, Tom Riddle!" I mean, really, why NOT broadcast that fact? Surely it would have lowered his esteem for many DEs. One possible explanation was that doing so would harm someone, that DD wanted to protect someone or someone's reputation. If MM had been married to Tom, perhaps some people remembered that... but never knew he turned into Voldemort. A pretty Out There notion, I"ll grant :-) but I present it just as something else which has been speculated about here concerning Hogwarts teachers' marital status. I think HBP seemingly eliminates this MM/Riddle possibility, too, since DD seems to have struggled to find out where Tom went and what he did for many years. Surely if he'd had a relationship with MM, DD would have accessed *her* memories. But the question of why DD didn't tell the whole WW that TR = LV is still intriguing, no? As well as the question, WHICH of the professors' married lives could matter so much that it's being kept a secret still? Siriusly Snapey Susan From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Aug 11 16:00:22 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:00:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's worst memory - my own take on this In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137285 > Maria: > I believe that Snape pulled the memory on purpose for Harry to see. Why > would anyone who has something to hide do it in front of the person you > want to hide it from? If Snape really wanted to keep this memory of his > secret, he had plenty of time to pull it out of his head and into the > pensieve before Harry showed up for class. Harry didn't need to know at > all that Snape was hiding anything. However, Snape waits for Harry to > arrive, from day 1, to do this. In my opinion he is teasing Harry by > doing so, and Harry of course is really curious about this, so much > that at the first chance he gets, he looks. Not only was Snape's > behavior provoking, but also what we see in the pensieve is more > damaging to Harry than to Snape. Really, what did we see? A kid being > teased by some bullies, but who hasn't been teased? Who doesn't have an > embarrassing memory? Does this really qualify as a "worst memory ever"? > Unless the worst part is what came next, which I agree is a very > appealing prospect, I think that seeing this memory hurt Harry more > than it did Snape. > Julia: That's really a good theory! I like it because it explains in some way why did Harry see that particular memory at all (I mean there were at least 2 other so why did he entered that one? it cant be a coincidence!) I also agree with you on the fact that seeing this memory by Harry is more devastating to him than to Snape... In fact Harry already knew that Sirius and James hated Snape (he knew about the Prank, he witnessed Sirius and Severus at the end of PoA and in Grimmauld Place in OotP) It wasn't that hard to guess that Snape was hexed on numerous occasions (by Sirius and James) during his schooldays. The surprising fact was the actual behaviour of James Potter which really hurted Harry and shattered his view of his perfect father... Isn't that what Snape always tried to do? If he planned to do this during Occlumency lessons he certainly succeeded! (SS isn't stupid he must have known that leaving Harry in his office would be a tempting situation for him!) BTW -> how on earth could Snape leave Harry in his office alone??? I can't understand that! Even if he was in a hurry he always in every situation stayed cool and remember to do what he was supposed to. I can't imagine any of my teachers ever leaving a student alone in his/her office! Even though i didn't have such a relationship with a teacher as Harry has with Snape... Julia From smiller at dslextreme.com Thu Aug 11 16:42:14 2005 From: smiller at dslextreme.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:42:14 -0000 Subject: The Battle of Hogwarts. Who are the Good Guys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137286 At the Battle of Hogwarts, there are two suspiciously unnamed DE's. JKR loves names and gives names to even the most insignificant characters, so two who are only described but never named are unusual. As I began to look at the activities of these guys, I got even more suspicious of them. Let's look at the sequence of events: ---------------- DE's arrive. Lots of fighting. Gibbon goes to the top of the tower and sets off the Dark Mark. He comes back down and is killed by the Killing Curse from Blondie which Lupin believes was aimed at him. Malfoy goes into the tower stairs followed by the brother and sister (Amycus and Alecto) and Greyback and a brutal faced man. They lock the stairs behind them. Neville tries going through the lock and gets tossed in the air. Blondie is sending curses everywhere which do a lot of property damage but miss all the people. Snape goes through the locked door. Lupin tries to go through the lock and is tossed in the air. Blondie sends a hex that collapses the ceiling and breaks the curse lock blocking the stairs to the tower roof. The Order head for the tower stairs. Draco is not killing Dumbledore. The four death eaters reach the top. Greyback starts to finish Dumbledore off but the Brutal Face stops him. Snape arrives. Snape AK's Dumbledore. Malfoy, Snape, Greyback, Amycus and Alecto leave the tower. Harry is unfrozen. Brutal Face is leaving the tower. Harry freezes him. We never hear from him again. Snape and Malfoy come out from the tower. Snape yells "It's over, time to go" There is a big fight going on. Snape and Malfoy get through it unscathed. Greyback attacks Harry. Somebody freezes Greyback. Someone sends a green jet towards him, but Harry dodges and takes off after Snape, running safely through the melee. Amycus is fighting Ginny. Harry Impedimentas him. Ron, McGonagall and Lupin are battling Death Eaters. Tonks is fighting Blondie. Amycus and Alecto flee. Harry hits Blondie with a hex. Blondie howls with pain. Blondie flees after Amycus and Alecto. The Room Of Requirment is apparently blocked. Harry takes a short cut through the Great Hall. Harry chases them out the front doors which have been blasted. The Gryffindor hourglass is smashed. He has overtaken Amycus and Alecto but Blondie, Snape and Malfoy are still ahead. Alecto hits Harry with a curse. Harry falls. Harry gets back up and trips Amycus and Alecto. Hagrid suddenly appears. Blondie hits him with lots of curses which do no harm. Harry runs past Blondie and Hagrid towards Snape. Harry attempts a Crucio against Snape but Snape parries. Blondie ignites Hagrid's house, possibly stopping Harry from attemptingany more unforgivable curses. Harry attempts many jinxes against Snape who parries them all. Snape advises Harry: Keep your mouth shut and your mind closed. Someone (either Blondie or Amycus or Alecto) crucios Harry. Snape cancels it and berates the DEs. Malfoy, Snape, Blondie, Amycus and Alecto escape. We do not know what happens to the other DE's in the battle. -------------------- Summary of activity by ambiguous DE's: Snape: Stuns Flitwick, AKs Dumbledore (results under debate), saves Malfoy, gives Harry good advice, (maybe) smashes Gryffindor's hourglass, cancels a Crucio on Harry, stops DE from doing any more damage to Harry. Blondie: Kills a Death Eater, trashes Hogwarts, unlocks the door to the tower, stops Harry from using an unforgiveable by burning Hagrid's house. Brutal Face: Stops Greyback from killing Dumbledore. Is frozen by Harry. ----------------- My conclusion: All three are Good Guys undercover. Each of them do something to the advantage of the Order or Harry. None of them do anything harmful to the Order. Well, Snape's AK is still under discussion, but I'm solidly on the side of it was a fake AK and Dumbledore is alive. Something about dragon's blood being used to fake a death earlier in the book. A trickle of blood from Dumbledore's mouth. 12 uses of dragon's blood. Hmmm. But I digress. We know from an earlier book that Dumbledore has spies (note the plural) in the DE's. I think we are witnessing three of them in action. Wild-eyed theorizing: Blondie (and maybe Brutal Face) are metamorphmagi of people we already know. I'm guessing that Blondie is Shacklebolt. A Black man might enjoy the irony of becoming Very White as a disguise and he is a big man, so becoming even bigger wouldn't be too tough, if that is even a problem. Brutal Face? Who knows. Other questions: What happened to the two frozen DEs - Greyback and Brutal Face? Pippin's theory - Greyback was rescued by ESE!Lupin. Brutal Face, too? How did Harry get ahead of Amycus And Alecto? They took the long way? If the DE's didn't take Harry's short cut through the Great Hall, why did they blast the doors? My theory - Snape just wanted to blast the Gryffindor hourglass. His version of "Neener, neener." ~ Constance Vigilance From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Aug 11 16:44:33 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:44:33 -0000 Subject: Marriage at Hogwarts & inthe WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137287 --- prep0strus wrote: > I don't see why spouses couldn't live/work at [Hogwarts], > considering Dumbledore's magnanimous attitude, but as far > [as] we've seen, everyone that works there chooses the > single life. I don't think we've seen Mr. McGonnagal at > the Christmas feast, or Mrs. Flitwick stopping by, or > Snape heading out for a date (ich). And our esteemed > champion of love, Dumbledore, appears to take the view of > a general, rather than personal love ... we've never heard > of Mrs. Dumbledore. > > Hagrid alone of the Hogwarts teachers, who is more like an > overgrown child than an authority figure, is involved in a > relationship. . . . What makes the life of a professor so > hard that they all choose the single life? Just because we don't see the professors' families "on-screen" does not mean they have none; it may simply be that our protagonist does not know about them. Rowling was asked about this in an interview several years ago and responded that a few of the Hogwarts professors have had spouses, hinting that this would be important to future plot developments. (See http://tinyurl.com/ddpzd for the full text of the interview at QQQ.) I was thinking about that quote in the context of the recent speculation about Irma Pince possibly being Eileen Prince, and appreciate your spurring me to go look it up -- it's not as on-point to Madam Pince as I had recalled (I thought it was more generally about families, not just spouses), but is a bit tantalizing nonetheless. -- Matt From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 11 17:20:05 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:20:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marriage at Hogwarts and in the WW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FB88C5.20302@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137288 > WHICH of the professors' married lives could > matter so much that it's being kept a secret still? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan > Professor Sprout is married to Aberforth? Or maybe its the Arithmancy witch, Sinistra, who goes home at night to the Hogs Head. Who teaches Ancient Runes? I don't think we have been told. We can speculate on into the night............at least, I can ;-) digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 From RoxyElliot at aol.com Thu Aug 11 17:28:27 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:28:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT Message-ID: <15c.5628785e.302ce4bb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137289 In a message dated 8/11/2005 8:44:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vmonte at yahoo.com writes: Petunia is definitely the witch that will show powers late in life. I also think that Petunia was definitely jealous of the attention Lily received from her parents--hence Harry now receiving nothing but contempt from the Dursleys. I don't see a moment of enlightenment for Petunia either, but it would be nice. I have a bad feeling that the Dursley house is going to be attacked in July when Harry turns 17. The DE's will be prepared for a confrontation with Harry but not with Petunia. It sounds like this late bloomer, according to JKR, is suppose to show signs of their power during a moment of crises. This Petunia as a witch who suppressed her powers theory is so delicious. I almost wonder if she went to Hogwarts herself at one point and then decided to leave or was expelled. It's always possible. This is why I wish we knew more back story about Harry's family. It's frustrating to know so much about so many wizarding families, and so little about our main character's background. My fingers are crossed for Book 7. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Aug 11 17:26:31 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:26:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Choice (was Draco's Choice ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137290 Potioncat wrote: > > When Harry gets back to DD's body, DD's face is peaceful. > Whatever > the final cause of his death, he died prepared and at peace and > having set something in motion. God knows, I wouldn't be at peace > if > I were AKed or fell off a tower, but then, I wouldn't sacrifice > myself for a toe-rag like Draco. > Chuckle. You certainly have a lot of support for that kind of theory on the list, potioncat! You may even be right. However, I have to confess that if things turn out this way, with all of this a Dumbledore self-sacrifice plot and Snape Dumbledore's man through and through, I for one will retch violently. At this point such an outcome would seem, to me, sickeningly contrived and as interesting as a sink full of dirty dishwater. If, indeed, this is a story about character, it would be, IMO, most effective to show that not only can a person be good or evil for any number of reasons, but that the same person can be BOTH good and evil over the course of their lives AND over the course of the story. A Snape who was genuinely repentant but suffered a relapse through resentment, or who was Dumbledore's man until forced to choose between Dumbledore's life and his own, would be a truly multifaceted and deep character. A Snape who turns out to have been ESE through the whole seven books, or even worse, DD's man through and through despite having AK'd his employer, would be about as interesting to me as a snail marathon. Unfortunately, HBP and OOTP have shown that JKR is overwedded to standard hero-narrative formulas (I suspect the only reason either Sirius or DD died was because she was slavishly following a literal interpretation of the hero journey) and not above using layer upon layer of cliches to move the story along. I was afraid that for HBP she would sweep OOTP under the rug and come up with a Harry who told DD "All is forgiven, now let's go get Voldemort!" and I was unfortunately well-justified in my fears. Therefore, an uninspired and boring outcome of Snape/Harry/Dumbledore, such as Harry magnanimously forgiving Snape for years of abuse because Snape was a "good" guy all along, while disappointing and, in my view, insipid, would not come as a great surprise. Lupinlore From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 18:01:52 2005 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:01:52 -0000 Subject: Significant Sevens Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137292 I have been thinking a lot about seven. Seven books. Seven horcruxes. JKR's interview stating the importance of Ginny being the seventh daughter of the seventh daughter and having magic powerful..that we will see in the seventh book and, I was wondering, what are the other significant sevens?? Can we list them? I watch the tv show "Lost" and anyone who does knows the significance of 'the numbers', (there is a website devoted to it!)But is 'seven' very important in HP? Can it unlock any secrets? Does Severus have any of the same roots as Seven? Maybe not but, could we look at this closer and list anything we can think of that 'may' be significant. Trish --who thinks that maybe the seventh book will be released on 07-07-07!! From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 11 18:05:36 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:05:36 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137293 Alla: > I agree DD would never beg for his life simply for the sake of > staying alive, BUT I absolutely can see him begging IF he feels that > eh did not finish all the tasks yet,which he planned. Such as - > finishing Harry's training. > > I also can absolutely see DD begging for Snape not to sacrifice his > soul by committing murder. houyhnhnm: When Snape arrives on the tower, he is faced with a weakened powerless Dumbledore, four mature Death Eaters, and one teenage Death Eater. Had Snape refused to kill Dumbledore, there could have been only one outcome. Snape would die. Dumbledore would be killed by one of the other Death Eaters. Draco would either be killed on the spot or taken back to Voldemort (I suspect the DEs had orders to kill him on the spot if he failed.) The DEs, including, Fenrir would be loosed upon the school and the casualties could have been much, much worse than they were. Dumbledore has to have known this and there's no way he would plead for his life at such a cost, not for a chance to spend more time with Harry, not to keep Snape from committing murder. I could buy DE!Snape or Out-For-Himself!Snape if Dumbledore had said nothing on the tower. It's the "Severus ... please" that is the incontravertible evidence for me that there has to be another explanation. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 18:18:15 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:18:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137295 > Houyhnhnm: > > When Snape arrives on the tower, he is faced with a weakened powerless > Dumbledore, four mature Death Eaters, and one teenage Death Eater. > Had Snape refused to kill Dumbledore, there could have been only one > outcome. Snape would die. Dumbledore would be killed by one of the > other Death Eaters. Draco would either be killed on the spot or taken > back to Voldemort (I suspect the DEs had orders to kill him on the > spot if he failed.) The DEs, including, Fenrir would be loosed upon > the school and the casualties could have been much, much worse than > they were. Alla: I guess my main problem is that we don't KNOW how much power DD had left in him. Who knows, if Snape would indeed do something to other DE, instead of killing Dumbledore, maybe it would have bought DD time to summon Fawkes at least, to do something. Snape would die? Well, could be true, but that is I submit indeed would have been the action of the hero, because I am absolutely not convinced that Snape alive is more valuable for WW as whole then Dumbledore is. You know, "the only one Voldemort ever feared".. Houyhnhnm: > Dumbledore has to have known this and there's no way he would plead > for his life at such a cost, not for a chance to spend more time with > Harry, not to keep Snape from committing murder. Alla: Well, since I disagree with what would have happened if Snape would not kill DD, I also disagree with this proposition. Especially because I did not mean that DD would want to spend more time with Harry simply for fun of it, although I am sure that DD would have enjoyed it. I meant that DD would have more time to teach Harry about horcrux mysteries and such, in other words to teach him how to get rid of Voldie, the action which would very much benefit WW as a whole. So, I am submitting that YES, DD would want to spend more time with Harry, if for nothing else, for this purpose only. Houyhnhnm: I could buy DE!Snape > or Out-For-Himself!Snape if Dumbledore had said nothing on the tower. > It's the "Severus ... please" that is the incontravertible > evidence for me that there has to be another explanation. Alla: Could be or it could be that begging to Snape "not throwing away his soul" IS the explanation. In light of the fact that metaphor about the murder hurting your soul is going through book as one of major themes, it seems like at least one of the possibilities to me. Just me of course, Alla From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 11 18:28:38 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:28:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > When Snape arrives on the tower, he is faced with a weakened > powerless Dumbledore, four mature Death Eaters, and one teenage > Death Eater. > Had Snape refused to kill Dumbledore, there could have been only > one outcome. Snape would die. Dumbledore would be killed by one > of the other Death Eaters. Draco would either be killed on the spot > or taken back to Voldemort (I suspect the DEs had orders to kill > him on the spot if he failed.) The DEs, including, Fenrir would be > loosed upon the school and the casualties could have been much, > much worse than they were. It's possible. But on the other hand, I am more and more convinced that if Snape were truly good, he would have sacrificed himself for Dumbledore right then and there. He could have given Dumbledore his wand back (so he could protect himself) and that could have happened in the instant before Snape died. Plus we don't know if he would have died on the spot or not, but even if he would have died in the tower, the melee and shock afterward on the part of the DEs who did not know that he had made the Unbreakable Vow would have given DD time to retrieve his wand and unfreeze Harry. Either way, I am confident Dumbledore could have fended off the DEs with him in the tower, esp. if he had Harry's help; after all help from the Order was on its way too. But the most telling thing for me in the Snape debate is his choice. His choice to kill Dumbledore rather than die himself. This is IMO the most crucial decision made in Book 6, for it determines the path the story would take after it. If Snape truly good, truly devoted to Dumbledore, truly on the side of good, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have died right then and there rather than let the wizarding world's best hope for victory against Voldemort die. Instead he take the easy way--not the right way, but the easy way-- out since Snape has one priority: Snape. I expect JKR to redeem him in book 7, but it won't be because had some kind of secret plan with DD (how could there be one? Neither of them had any idea how any of this was going to unfold so how could they plan it?--I expect this discussion is going on in threads I haven't read). Nor will it be because he loved Lily and looks into Harry's eyes. The most powerful way for Snape to be redeemed will be for him to realize his betrayal of the one person in the world who completely believed in him and trusted him and that will be for him to do, finally, something unselfish, something motivated out of love. What that is, I do not know (at the moment I am leaning toward not-fully-thought-out idea that he's going to help Harry make a kind of love potion to kill Voldemort, and this will be unselfish because at this point Voldemort will have offered--tempted--Snape with power and prestige far beyond his wildest dreams. We'll see how my thinking changes over the next 2 years.) jujube From smiller at dslextreme.com Thu Aug 11 18:30:53 2005 From: smiller at dslextreme.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:30:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137297 > houyhnhnm: > > When Snape arrives on the tower, he is faced with a weakened powerless > Dumbledore, four mature Death Eaters, and one teenage Death Eater. > Had Snape refused to kill Dumbledore, there could have been only one > outcome. Snape would die. Dumbledore would be killed by one of the > other Death Eaters. Draco would either be killed on the spot or taken > back to Voldemort (I suspect the DEs had orders to kill him on the > spot if he failed.) The DEs, including, Fenrir would be loosed upon > the school and the casualties could have been much, much worse than > they were. CV: Not necessarily. See my post just previous to yours. The four DE's arrive at the tower while Draco is waffling. Greyback starts to kill Dumbledore but is stopped by the unnamed DE. There is no retribution taken by either of the other two because of him stopping the killing of Dumbledore. Then Snape arrives. He AK's Dumbledore (or does he?) and isn't stopped by the unnamed DE. Why is Snape's attack different from Greyback's? I feel strongly that the unnamed DE and Snape are in cahoots as double agents and that Snape never killed Dumbledore. There is a loophole in the Unbreakable Vow, IMO. There is no deadline for taking action. He is required to save Draco, which he does. But as long as he keeps "intending to get around to killing Dumbledore", he hasn't broken the Vow. But there is some reason why it is important for Harry and everybody else to believe that Dumbledore is dead. ~ Constance Vigilance From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 18:39:36 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CoS was almost HBP: What does that mean? In-Reply-To: <1123772244.3809.77856.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050811183936.22922.qmail@web32107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137298 Lupinlore wrote: "Or was the original book of the prince not going to be a potions book at all, but something like a diary? And what about the plot that DOES exist in CoS as we have it? Would Ginny still have used Riddle's diary? Two mysterious diaries/journals in one book seems like overkill (which may be part of the reason JKR moved the HBP plot)." Morgan here: One thing that fits with this theory is that if Harry had found the Half-Blood Prince's potions book in his 2nd year they could have used it to make the polyjuice potion when they went undercover to spy on Malfoy. My question is, if this plot line had been in CoS would that mean that Snape would have "betrayed" Dumbledore way back in book 2? If so, that explains why it had to wait until now. --Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 11 18:47:20 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:47:20 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137299 Vmonte: > > Petunia is definitely the witch that will show powers late in > > life. jujube: > JKR has said, quite directly and distinctly, that this is not > the case. > > ----------------- > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 > J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival > Sunday 15 August 2004 > > Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? > > Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a > Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the > other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little > bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out > what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. > Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet. > ----------------- > > JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do magic, > and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. Jen: All true. What's the "but" in there about, though? I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just that there's something related to Petunia, more than meets the eye, and while she's not a Squib that's a 'good guess'. It's not very speculative to assume the 'bit more than meets the eye' has something to do with her relationship to the magical world. jujube: > Second, I think it's pretty clear with Book 6 that Merope is the > person how uses magic late in life. : > "In my books, magic almost > always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a > character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic > quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am > writing about." Jen: I had to laugh a little about this. Being almost 40, "quite late in life" doesn't equate with Merope using magic at age 20 or however old she was at the time! And she wasn't a Squib, either, her powers were merely diminished because of her abusive father. When she cast an 'inaudible' spell at the pot she dropped, it sped across the floor. A Squib couldn't do that. And Merope was not in 'desperate circumstances' when she started performing magic, either---that was the best time of her short life when the Gaunt men went to jail! I'm pretty certain we haven't seen the event JKR describes above. Jen From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 18:48:03 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:48:03 -0000 Subject: CoS was almost HBP: What does that mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > In our discussions about HBP, I don't think I've seen a discussion > of one salient fact that came up in JKR's interviews, that she > almost named the second book HBP. Furthermore, she said that no > trace of the HBP storyline remained in CoS, as she thought the story > more appropriate for sixth year as opposed to second. > > Now, this raises all sorts of interesting questions. Her statement > implies that she originally intended for some of the events in HBP > to happen in the second book. Which ones? And what does that mean > for the importance of the events of HBP? Does that make them more > important, or less important? And does that cast any light at all > on the infamous question of Severus Snape? I suspect that the Half-blood prince in that book may have been Tom Riddle, not Snape. If it it was to be introduced through a second- hand book, I doubt it would have been Harry's book - why would he have had a second-hand book? Remember he does end up buying his own new book, and borrows the HBP book until the new one arrives. As for events that could have happened in book 2 - maybe Harry attacked Draco in her original draft, assuming he was the Heir of Slytherin. That would give him detention with Snape, and given him the chance to see all the things his father got into trouble for - but we weren't intoduced yet to the marauders, so they might have had to come out early too. I doubt she would have used 2 special books - instead the diary wouldn't have existed, or maybe it would have had Half Blood Price in the cover, instead of Tom Riddle's name. Then Tom would have progressed from Prince to Lord. From Nanagose at aol.com Thu Aug 11 18:51:16 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:51:16 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137301 > Saraquel: > > My guess is that it was not James, but Snape who > gave her that information. It would be the sort of thing he would be > interested in. Christina: I totally agree that Snape was the "awful boy" that Petunia refers to. Her only other reference to James that I can find is in PS/SS, and she calls him "that Potter." I can't imagine what about James could make Petunia call him an "awful boy." She obviously didn't like him, but "awful" is an odd word choice considering what we saw of James in Snape's Worst Memory. The kid was a charmer, just the kind you want to bring home to Mom. Here's the line from the book: (OotP, US, page 32) "I heard - that awful boy - telling her about them - years ago," she said jerkily. "If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" said Harry loudly, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed horribly flustered. (end quote) It's almost as if JKR is going out of her way to get us to notice that Petunia isn't using James's name. Saraquel > and JKR choosing to tell us about Lupin and Lily rather > than Snape and Lily in the Mugglenet/LC interview has edged me > towards it. Christina: Yes!! I thought that was interesting too. She says "I can answer either one," but the interviewers don't specify, giving JKR her choice of which to answer (and she chose to mention Lupin). >Tonks: >Yes I think there was more that we did not see and it was the so >called prank. I think what is missing is the fact that James saved >Snape and now Snape has a life debit to James, whom he hates. Christina: Oh, GOOD point! If that memory leads into the prank, then this is very possible. And it has the added benefit of fitting nicely into my previous thoughts about the pensieve (Snape is hiding the memories from LV, not Harry)- Snape owed (or owes) a life-debt to James. This is definitely something he would not want Voldemort to know, especially if the life-debt transferred to Harry when James died. >Tonks: >If you think Harry is a marked man, Snape is even more so. >Whatever he does now will not matter, he is doomed. Christina: Agreed. If he lives through book 7, I'll eat my shoe. Christina From MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 18:59:21 2005 From: MITCHBAILEY82 at HOTMAIL.COM (Michelle Bailey) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:59:21 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ongj87" wrote: > No doubt most of us are very certain that one of the Weasley's will be > leaving us forever in the next book, if not more than one. Mrs. > Weasley's woes (OoP) are not negligible. > > Anybody got any clues as to who it might be? > > Ongj. I believe it could be one of the twins, probably one killed in front of the other, or as this would perhaps be a bit too dark for children's books it could be Ginny that dies, maybe both. If Ginny does die however I do not see her dieing sacrificing herself for Harry. Also as we have already had one Weasley defect to the Ministry, and to keep things even I believe we may have another Weasley defect to the Death Eaters, my guess would be Charlie as we haven't seen much of him yet and I bet there's a reason why. Michelle From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 19:02:06 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050811190206.66289.qmail@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137303 --- jjjjjuliep wrote: > But the most telling thing for me in the Snape debate is his choice. > His choice to kill Dumbledore rather than die himself. This is IMO > the most crucial decision made in Book 6, for it determines the path > the story would take after it. If Snape truly good, truly devoted to > Dumbledore, truly on the side of good, there is no doubt in my mind > that he would have died right then and there rather than let the > wizarding world's best hope for victory against Voldemort die. > Instead he take the easy way--not the right way, but the easy way-- > out since Snape has one priority: Snape. Not necessarily Julie. Are you absolutely sweepingly sure, without a doubt, what was easy and what was right in that situation? I don't think so! And that's where the grand Snape debate ensues (why do you think there're rooms for debate?). Let me ask you, when Dumbledore asked Harry to force fed him those fatal looking posion, what was easy and what was right? According to you logic, Harry did what was easy because if Harry is truly good he should have drank the poison instead of sacrificing Dumbledore-the-ww's best hope, regardless what Dumbledore say. Harry made his own choice. So according to you, Harry did what was easy. But most readers would argue Harry made the *right* but *difficult* choice because DD convinced him that Harry's life is more valuable than DD in this war, and Harry understoo that. Then did you notice (re-read those passages) we have very same wordings choices in the paragraphs describeing this scene between Harry and Dumbledore and that scene between Snape and Dumbledore? The parallelization are too jarringly deliberate to escape my notice even in my first reading. This has been addressed numerous time on this list. So we do have a subtle hint literarlly. What if, just like Harry, the *RIGHT* choice for Snape was to sacrifice DD, because just like Harry, Snape is also more valuable to the war than DD? Snape made the most difficult choice to make in the entire series we've seen so far, because Snape was forced to kill the only one who trust him, but he was trapped in the situation where this is the RIGHT (but extremely difficult) thing to do. But really no one knows exactly what happen except JKR, what people debating are mostly what they think will make a better story. For me, Snape-the-trapped-spy-who-made-the-painful-difficult-but-ultimately-right-choice makes a way more compelling story and what makes Snape such a beloved gift of a character. This whole situation just rang too much like a popular but compelling plot device (that always works) for spy roles, the kind of spy's trapping angst and tradegy suggests by the title "Spinner's end". D. From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 10:33:11 2005 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:33:11 -0000 Subject: my hopes for the next book was Re: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137304 Susan McGee: > Well, if I were writing these books... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137305 Cindy said: > I've thought about it a lot, and while I don't feel Harry is a > Christ archetype, there are similarities. Looking through the lens > of the Bible, the greatest love of all is not love for those who > love you, not even the love a mother has for a child which is > unconditional and powerful. It is love for your enemies. Now > that's just not the absence of revenge towards them, that is deep, > positive regard and wanting the best for your enemies. SSSusan: And consider this... perhaps... as potential support for your view: How did Harry respond to a couple of his/DD's pensieve adventures? First, there was the point where, after learning Merope had died in childbirth, Harry asked, "She wouldn't even stay alive for her son?" and DD in turn asked Harry, "Could you possibly be feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?" Now, I do *not* think DD was scoffing at Harry nor criticizing him; rather, I think he was dead on about what Harry was feeling and actually appreciative of that gut reaction. Granted, Harry's response to the question was "No," but was that the truth?? Or was DD correct, that Harry had been "caught" feeling sympathy -- or even empathy -- for a baby who lost his mother? EVEN a baby whom Harry KNEW to be Tom Riddle/Voldemort, a baby who grew up to be his own parents' murderer and his own sworn enemy? An interesting possibility, in my book. The other scene came earlier, when DD & Harry had, via pensieve, visited the Gaunts in their home, and Harry had witnessed Marvolo's abusive behavior towards Merope. When they returned from the memory, IIRC, Harry's very first question to DD was, "What happened to her?" Again, he *knows* who this woman is ? he knows she's the mother of Lord Voldemort ? and yet his first instinct was to ask what happened to her, and in a way which I know *I* took as a concerned-for-her- welfare kind of way. Is this just curiosity? Perhaps. But Harry seems to be able to set aside the kind of spiteful/vengeful/hate-filled responses one might *expect* from him when viewing memories of Tom Riddle & his family, and shows, instead, an inkling of compassion and concern. I'm not saying this is something *consistent* we see in Harry. Heaven knows that when it comes to Draco/Crabbe/Goyle/Slytherins and to Snape, he's certainly quite ready to jump to quick conclusions about their natures/actions/motives and to be pleased as punch should anything nasty or negative befall them. And yet... when it comes to Tom Riddle, the man he should MOST despise and hate and want revenge upon, we see these little glimmers of what might be... sympathy? empathy? compassion? I find that interesting and compelling. Love for his enemy? I'm not sure. But he certainly seems able to be moved by what he *sees* and *hears* about TR's early life. (He was also moved by *seeing* how his dad had treated teenaged Snape.) Perhaps with TR it's the similarity to his own early life, but whatever it is, the fact that he could notice it and even be somewhat moved by it -- that he didn't laugh "HAHA! Look what happened to that evil family, they got exactly what they deserved!"-- given that it's Tom Riddle, seems potentially significant to me. If this seems really a stretch, consider this. How did Lord Voldemort react when faced with James, Lily & Harry at Godric's Hollow? Apparently, according to Voldy himself, he had no difficulty at all in AKing them all. (There was that enigmatic "Stand aside" and "She didn't have to die," but we're not sure what was behind that.) There certainly didn't seem to be any self-reflection or pausing to compare the similarities in his own life to what he was doing to Harry. :-) Yet when Harry discovers the details about TR's family and how he was orphaned, he shows interest... a willingness to compare & contrast their situations, maybe... and possibly even a little compassion. Potentially very telling, that. JKR has said: "But Harry is also innately honorable. He's not a cruel boy." [Booklinks, July 1999] "Harry, Ron and Hermione are innately good people. [Washington Post, Oct. 1999] Is there "Something About Harry"? Is that Something compassion or an ability to empathize, even with his enemy? Siriusly Snapey Susan From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 11 19:10:24 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:10:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137306 > jujube wrote: > But the most telling thing for me in the Snape debate is his choice. His choice to kill Dumbledore rather than die himself. This >is IMO > the most crucial decision made in Book 6, for it determines the path > the story would take after it. If Snape truly good, truly devoted to > Dumbledore, truly on the side of good, there is no doubt in my mind > that he would have died right then and there rather than let the > wizarding world's best hope for victory against Voldemort die. > Instead he take the easy way--not the right way, but the easy way-- > out since Snape has one priority: Snape. > however, didn't Harry have to force the potion down DD's throat and he didn't want to? Harry was concerned that it was killing DD and who knows, maybe it was.... Should Harry have refused to follow DD's orders and not force the potion down DD's throat? Or should he have taken it upon himself and drink it instead of DD? Do we even question that Harry is on the side of the good, a loyal DD man despite the fact he force-feed poison to Dumbledore? If Snape is Good!Snape(which I still believe he is), I feel that he was under the same orders as Harry was. To follow DD's instructions to the letter. If DD wanted him to protect Draco and not have Draco become a killer, there is only one outcome - DD must die at the hands of Snape. There is no other outcome. You think this is an easy way out - to kill someone whom you have followed and respected for the past 15 years or so? At their wishes? And as far as DD is concerned, it is Harry that is the best hope for victory against Voldemort, not Dumbledore. Snape is much more useful as a undercover agent in Voldy's camp and he can continue to protect Draco. Since Snape killed DD, or it *seems* that Snape killed DD - I think DD was a dead man the minute he got cursed by the horcrux ring and all Snape did was push him over the side and perhaps released him from any spell/potions that was keeping DD alive - and he has other DE's that have witnessed it, Snape is probably Voldemort's *best-boy* right now. And that may have clout - which Snape will use to protect Draco & make sure Voldemort doesn't take it out on him. I still believe, however, that Snape cannot survive book 7. He will give up his life for either Harry or Draco to survive. And that is how he will be redeemed. Of course, that is JMHO colebiancardi From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 11 19:21:38 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:21:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: <20050811190206.66289.qmail@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "d." wrote: > --- jjjjjuliep wrote: > > But the most telling thing for me in the Snape debate is his > > choice. His choice to kill Dumbledore rather than die himself. > > This is IMO the most crucial decision made in Book 6, for it > > determines the path the story would take after it. If Snape > > truly good, truly devoted to Dumbledore, truly on the side of > > good, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have died right > > then and there rather than let the wizarding world's best hope > > for victory against Voldemort die. Instead he takes the easy > > way--not the right way, but the easy way--out since Snape has > > one priority: Snape. > > Not necessarily Julie. Are you absolutely sweepingly sure, without > a doubt, what was easy and what was right in that situation? I > don't think so! And that's where the grand Snape debate ensues > (why do you think there're rooms for debate?). Am I sure? Yes, for me--because if you read the part of my post you quoted, it's liberally strewn with qualifiers which point that this is solely my opinion--killing Dumbdledore instead of sacrificing himself was the easy thing to do. > Let me ask you, when Dumbledore asked Harry to force fed him those > fatal looking posion, what was easy and what was right? According > to you logic, Harry did what was easy because if Harry is truly > good he should have drank the poison instead of sacrificing > Dumbledore-the-ww's best hope, regardless what Dumbledore say. > Harry made his own choice. So according to you, Harry did what was > easy. Actually, I've said no such thing nor would I. It's very dangerous to ascribe all sorts of thoughts to me that I have not written down. :-) In that case it would have been easier for Harry to not give Dumbledore the rest of the potion and to get him back to Hogwarts ASAP, with the task uncompleted. But Harry did the right thing: he gave his word to Dumbledore that he would do whatever DD asked, and then he followed up on that promise with that action, no matter how hard it was. > But most readers would argue Harry made the *right* but *difficult* > choice because DD convinced him that Harry's life is more valuable > than DD in this war, and Harry understoo that. And I absolutely agree with this. > Then did you notice (re-read those passages) we have very same > wordings choices in the paragraphs describeing this scene between > Harry and Dumbledore and that scene between Snape and Dumbledore? > The parallelization are too jarringly deliberate to escape my > notice even in my first reading. This has been addressed numerous > time on this list. So we do have a subtle hint literarlly. What if, > just like Harry, the *RIGHT* choice for Snape was to sacrifice DD, > because just like Harry, Snape is also more valuable to the war > than DD? What canon do we have that Snape is more valuable to the ultimate victory of good than Dumbledore? I think the argument, from canon, that Harry is more important in the end than DD is convincingly made. But for Snape? I have a hard time equating Snape with DD, let alone posting Snape is more important to the upcoming war than DD is. > Snape made the most difficult choice to make in the entire series Why was this the most difficult choice? > we've seen so far, because Snape was forced to kill the only one > who trust him, but he was trapped in the situation where this is Who forced him to kill Dumbleore? Who trapped him in this situation? > the RIGHT (but extremely difficult) thing to do. Why was it the right decision? Why is Snape more valuable to the hopes of the wizarding world than the most powerful wizard alive, and the only person Voldemort fears? jujube From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 11 19:29:34 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:29:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > If Snape is Good!Snape(which I still believe he is), I feel that > he was under the same orders as Harry was. To follow DD's > instructions to the letter. If DD wanted him to protect Draco > and not have Draco become a killer, there is only one outcome - > DD must die at the hands of Snape. There is no other outcome. First, we don't know for sure that there was any sort of plan between DD and Snape. There is great ambiguity and a lot of hopeful thinking. Personally I think the book is much more powerful with the events as the currently starkly stand: Snape has betrayed the person who cared for him most in the world. Second, this was not an either/or situation: it was not as simple as Snape could either let Draco be a killer or kill Dumbledore. There is at least one more option: Snape could have elected to break his Unbreakable Vow, die himself, and let Dumbledore live. > You think this is an easy way out - to kill someone whom you have > followed and respected for the past 15 years or so? When you could sacrifice yourself for the person who you have followed and respected for the past 15 years? Yes. > At their wishes? Whose wishes? We have no hard evidence--yet--that Dumbldore has a death plan with Snape. > Snape is much more useful as a undercover agent in Voldy's camp and IF he is an undercover agent working for the good. At the moment I am not convinced that Snape is working for anyone but himself. jujube From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 11 19:39:47 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:39:47 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > First, we don't know for sure that there was any sort of plan between > DD and Snape. There is great ambiguity and a lot of hopeful > thinking. Personally I think the book is much more powerful with the > events as the currently starkly stand: Snape has betrayed the person > who cared for him most in the world. it is viewed thru Harry's POV and we know Harry doesn't like Snape one bit. > Second, this was not an either/or situation: it was not as simple as > Snape could either let Draco be a killer or kill Dumbledore. There > is at least one more option: Snape could have elected to break his > Unbreakable Vow, die himself, and let Dumbledore live. But DD doesn't want Draco to be a killer, and quite frankly, Draco didn't have it in him to do it - JKR even states that. And so Snape breaks his vow and then what? The other 4 DE's would have attacked and killed Dumbledore - as he was in a very weak condition at that point. So, both Snape and DD would be dead and Draco would be toast in Voldemort's lair. The Tower scene was set up to be an either/or situation. > > > You think this is an easy way out - to kill someone whom you have > > followed and respected for the past 15 years or so? > > When you could sacrifice yourself for the person who you have > followed and respected for the past 15 years? Yes. And what if DD didn't want Snape to do that? The argument in the woods could point to Snape's reluctance in fulfilling the Vow. > > > At their wishes? > > Whose wishes? We have no hard evidence--yet--that Dumbldore has a > death plan with Snape. > The conversation in the woods could point to that. Of course we don't have hard evidence; hence all the discussions. again, I am coming from the POV that this is Good!Snape here. You are coming from the POV of ESE!Snape or TW!Snape. colebiancardi From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 19:47:41 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:47:41 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > First, no one is invalidating the Multiple Time Line Theory of time > travel *in general*, but there is evidence or at least hints in the > books that tell us that this is simply not the theory the JKR used. > > There are clues in the book, hints that tell us the TT!Harry and > TT!Hermione were always there. NT!Harry and NT!Herione (NT!=Normal > Time) heard TT!Harry and TT!Hermione in the Entrance Hall. In the > second re-counting of the events, TT!Harry and TT!Hermione hear > NT!Harry and NT!Hermione along with Ron out in the Entrance Hall. > That's not an absolute statement of fact, but it's a strong enough and > intentional enough hint to settle it for me. They heard each other; > therefore, they were ALL ALWAYS THERE. Since Harry was there, he was > there to save himself. Simple as that. You are incorrectly characterizing the "multiple time line theory." I AM NOT arguing that the book shows two separate sets of events, before they were changed and after they were changed. I agree that the events shown are all the same, from two perspectives. I think I have pinpointed the reason I disagree with your "single timeline" theory: it requires the future to have already taken place. For TT!Harry to ALWAYS have been there shooting stags at dementors, it means that the event of going back in time was already fixed at the time that Harry was facing the dementors. THAT is the huge unresolveable hole with this entire theory. There just can't be a single timeline because you can't come back from the future before you go to the future to come back from. Now, once the time traveling takes place, then the past self does not know that things once happened differently. One possibility is that this immediately alters the memories of the time traveler so that even he has no knowledge of a different set of events, so from everyone's perspective, there was a single timeline. But this would be perception, not fact: fact would dictate that some series of events leading up to the decision to travel in time must have occurred without a time-traveler hanging around. > Anytime you have reverse/backward time travel, you will have the > effect before the cause. We see the effects of Harry and Hermione time > traveling before we know the cause; effect-Harry saved Harry, > cause-Harry time traveled. That in and of itself is enough to create a > paradox. However, it's nnly a big unresolvable paradox if you insist > on starting history in the future and working back in time. > NO NO NO!!!! YOUR theory is the one that requires starting in the future!! Don't you see? Your theory depends on the time traveling having already taken place before it takes place. Your theory obligates you to look at the entire completed timeline, time travlers and all, as always having been that way, instead of progressing moment by moment. > Theory 1- Multiple Timelines - has a huge unresolvable hole in it. The only hold with this theory is that JKR probably didn't consider and certainly never wrote what events took place before time traveling changed things. > > Theory 2- Single Timeline - doesn't > Um, yeah it does. Tell me again how the future happens before the past? - davenclaw From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 11 20:00:02 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:00:02 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137312 Valky: > Argus seems able to recall an age when students were whipped as > punishment for misdeeds. It's highly doubtful that this would exist > under DD's Headmastership. houyhnhnm: He doesn't necessarily have to know about the old punishments from personal memory. He may have just heard about them (from Eileen?) Or from finding the whips and shackles. We don't know when he became caretaker, but we know he didn't hold the position in Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's time. Valky: > Filch tries to learn a little Magic for Squibs from a mail order kit. > It would seem pretty pointless for a Muggle to try it, and call > himself a Squib too. houyhnhnm: It would be pointless for a Squib to try and learn magic from a mail order kit, too, wouldn't it. Nevertheless Filch tries--and fails. If you were a Muggle in hiding in the midst of a wizarding community you would have to pose as a Squib. It would be impossible to pass as a wizard. And how could anyone really tell the difference between a Muggle and a Squib? Valky: > Snape likes him, now I know it's not proven canon, but it's likely > that Snapes actual father was very abusive of his wife and child. > Sevvies not exactly the character I'd hold out big hope for being > forgiving of sins against him as a child, so if it was Tobias, I'd >be more inclined to say it's in character for Snape to be resentful >of him. houyhnhnm: In the longest scene in which we see them alone together, at the foot of the hidden staircase when Harry is returning from the prefects' bathroom, Snape repeatedly addresses Filch as "Filch" and Filch calls Snape "Professor". For someone as subtle as Snape and and as obsessive about status and titles, this could be adequate revenge for any mistreatment he suffered as a child. Anyway, if Filch is Snape's father, Snape may not resent him all that much. We don't know that Snape's father was *very* abusive (if that's whom we are seeing in the memory), just that there was discord. Snape is very much like him. If Filch/Madame Pinch are Snape's parents (or just Madame Pinch alone), we can certainly see where Snape gets his attitudes and social skills (or lack thereof). Both Filch and Madame Pinch are suspicious, unsocial individuals who think everyone else is up to no good and it is their job to ferret out the wrongdoers and see to it that they are punished. That's Snape in a nutshell. I'm totally convinced about Madame Pince at this point, but still unsure about Filch. From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Aug 11 20:09:24 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:09:24 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137313 colebiancardi: > Snape is much more useful as a undercover agent in Voldy's camp and > he can continue to protect Draco. Since Snape killed DD, or it > *seems* that Snape killed DD - I think DD was a dead man the minute > he got cursed by the horcrux ring and all Snape did was push him over > the side and perhaps released him from any spell/potions that was > keeping DD alive - and he has other DE's that have witnessed it, > Snape is probably Voldemort's *best-boy* right now. And that may > have clout - which Snape will use to protect Draco & make sure > Voldemort doesn't take it out on him. > > I still believe, however, that Snape cannot survive book 7. He will > give up his life for either Harry or Draco to survive. And that is > how he will be redeemed. > > Of course, that is JMHO > Julia: It just occured to me so I thought I'll share it with you guys. What if Voldemort wouldn't be very pleased with Snape killing Dumbledore? I know Voldemort wants DD dead but it wasn't his goal when he gave Draco the Mission... I mean - Voldemort (along with Narcissa)was probably sure that Draco will chicken out or be killed in an attempt to AK Dumbledore... It was simply a plan to get rid of the Malfoys or to give a lesson to Lucius. IMO Voldemort didn't plan to kill Dumbledore at that point - that whole plan was about Draco and the Malfoys. When Narcissa with Bellatrix show up at Snape's door and Severus makes an Unbreakable Vow everything change. IMO neither Nercissa nor her sister told Voldemort about the Vow so imagine his surprise when he finds out that out of blue Snape (who wasn't informed about the Mission or when Draco will attempt to fulfill it) turns out at the crime scene AKs Dumbledore grabs Draco and runs away... Isn't it suspicious? And even if DL doesn't suspect a treachery it should occur to him that this situation is somehow strange... Nobody but Draco was supposed to kill Dumbledore (when Fenrir loses it and try to approach DD someone stops him!) No I wonder if Snape wouldn't have a hard time explaining how did he knew about the Mission (I'm absolutely sure that he lied to Narcissa and he didn't know about Draco mission to kill DD) and WHY exactly did he kill DD?? It would be much more harder for Snape cause if he wanted to tell the truth he would have to tell about Narcissa and Bellatrix... A classic tragic situation What do you think? Julia From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 20:13:14 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050811201314.4198.qmail@web30309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137314 --- jjjjjuliep wrote: > Am I sure? Yes, for me--because if you read the part of my post you > quoted, it's liberally strewn with qualifiers which point that this > is solely my opinion--killing Dumbdledore instead of sacrificing > himself was the easy thing to do. Killing is not 'easy', especially killing the most powerful and beloved wizard hence turning the whole world against you. Dying, for Snape, could be easy given he's a bitter unhappy man trapped in a mess and vow and all. > Actually, I've said no such thing nor would I. It's very dangerous > to ascribe all sorts of thoughts to me that I have not written > down. :-) In that case it would have been easier for Harry to not > give Dumbledore the rest of the potion and to get him back to > Hogwarts ASAP, with the task uncompleted. But Harry did the right > thing: he gave his word to Dumbledore that he would do whatever DD > asked, and then he followed up on that promise with that action, no > matter how hard it was. A lot of us see the parallelization between the situation of Harry and Snape, a very typical JKR hint we are used to by now, and I have yet to see someone giving a compelling counter why it is written the way it is. It is not a Mark Evans, if JKR refuse to confirm anything about Snape and encourage theories and speculations. Everytime you bring up "Snape is just a simple evil coward who did what was easy and not sacrificing himself" there will be someone bringing up this deliberate parallelization, again and again. > What canon do we have that Snape is more valuable to the ultimate > victory of good than Dumbledore? I think the argument, from canon, > that Harry is more important in the end than DD is convincingly > made. But for Snape? I have a hard time equating Snape with DD, let > alone posting Snape is more important to the upcoming war than DD is. No canon line I can give you, if I can quote a clear line then there won't be debate right? An usual conservative educated guess would be: Snape is more valuable to be alive and deep-seeded in the enemy camp, striking the fatal suprrise attack from within when the timing is right. And ultimately I think what we have here is an disagreement on the importance of Snape's character for the story and final battle. Those of you who Snape is nothing but a selfish self-serving jerk who has cowardly turn the world against himself, he's just a semi-boss for Harry to defeat before LV. Those of us who believed Snape who did the right thing, both DD and us see Snape as having one of the BIGGEST crucial role to play in the final battle, if going to the extend of killing DD is what JKR needed him stay alive for the story. But really, no one can truly have a clear picture what is Snape's role setup to be in the final battle, as of yet. No matter what it is, it should be BIG, because Harry/Snape is as personal as Harry/Voldemort, what could it that setup for? Also according to DD, Snape 'cure' his blackened hand, and why is it addressed again and again in the text and we know NOTHING about what went on? What happened to DD? What fatal effect does the ring has for DD? What did Snape do? What abilities does Snape possessed? Does Snape knows about Horcruxes? What was the poison Harry forced fed DD? Does it have antidote, especially in HBP JKR specifically bring up the fact that "some poisons have no antidote"?? You have to consider that ultimate tower scene with all kinds of clues and questions that went into it...and for me the conclusion is: it is not what it seems. > Who forced him to kill Dumbleore? Dumbledore, who's determine to sacrifice himself to let the Snape (who has more valueable role to play) live, pleading Snape to 'do it' to keep his life and cover. > Who trapped him in this situation? Both the Unbreakable Vow and Dumbledore who sacrifices himself to keep Snape alive. > Why was it the right decision? Why is Snape more valuable to the > hopes of the wizarding world than the most powerful wizard alive, and > the only person Voldemort fears? Because Snape will have a crucial role to play in defeating LV in next book? Not DD? Really, what it comes down to, why didn't Fawkes take the AK for DD if Snape is just another baddie to get rid of? There is no way Voldemort's AK is more "blockable" than Snape. And why are there still so many unsolved mysterious surrounded Snape? D. From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 11 20:17:51 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:17:51 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137315 > Julia: > > It just occured to me so I thought I'll share it with you guys. What > if Voldemort wouldn't be very pleased with Snape killing Dumbledore? > I know Voldemort wants DD dead but it wasn't his goal when he gave > Draco the Mission... snip, snip & more snipping, so the mods won't email that I didn't snip enough!! > I wonder if Snape wouldn't have a hard time explaining how did he > knew about the Mission (I'm absolutely sure that he lied to Narcissa > and he didn't know about Draco mission to kill DD) and WHY exactly > did he kill DD?? It would be much more harder for Snape cause if he > wanted to tell the truth he would have to tell about Narcissa and > Bellatrix... well, it could be that Snape *didn't* know about the mission at Spinner's End - however, he does state to Narcissa, after she asks him to do it for Draco - that the Dark Lord expect me to do it in the end - or something similar to that effect (don't have my book on hand). I believe that Snape knew that about the plan. DD had already been *cursed* with the ring horcrux, and I still believe that DD was living on borrowered time. Snape knew that as well, as he tended to DD. Which is why he took the vow. However, if he didn't know about the mission and Voldemort finds out that Snape killed DD instead of Draco - I don't know what he will do. Will he be pleased - after all, DD's dead - I am sure Voldy would have liked to do it himself, but hey, look at the end result. Or will he be very angry, as he wanted to punish the Malfoy's and now he cannot - well, he still can - but you know what I mean. At anyrate, Snape is a marked man - whether it be from the OotP or from the DE's camp. Could be both - he is walking a fine tightrope here. colebiancardi (who wishes that JKR had written books 6 & 7 together, so the wait would be over) From racket at club-internet.fr Thu Aug 11 14:11:48 2005 From: racket at club-internet.fr (racket at club-internet.fr) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:11:48 +0200 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137316 >Jeanette: >And the portrait is one thing that does puzzle me. IF Dumbledore is >dead, then surely his portrait should "wake-up", but it does not. >CathyD now: >Ah, but those former headmasters/headmistresses *fake* sleep all the >time, don't they? Julie: I think that Dumbledore is really dead ::big sigh:: (i'm going to miss him a lot) Maybe the people is the portrait need a certain time sleeping before beginning to speak in the portrait. From darkcorgi at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 19:35:20 2005 From: darkcorgi at yahoo.com (Corgi) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050811193520.88197.qmail@web50010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137317 houyhnhnm wrote: It would be pointless for a Squib to try and learn magic from a mail order kit, too, wouldn't it. Nevertheless Filch tries--and fails. If you were a Muggle in hiding in the midst of a wizarding community you would have to pose as a Squib. It would be impossible to pass as a wizard. And how could anyone really tell the difference between a Muggle and a Squib? Corgi: I think the greatest piece of evidence for determining whether a person is a squib or muggle is their animals. Look at Filch. He's got a cat that can pratically summon him when she spots students around. It was mentioned a couple of times in the series that Filch always appeared hot on the heals of Mrs. Norris when she's spotted Harry (with or without his friends). My supportive evidence is the only other squib we're intimate with in the series, which is Mrs. Figg. In Order of the Phoenix she says that she sent Mr. Tibbs to watch number 4 Privet Drive after Mundungus took off for those cauldrons. Anyone who has had the opportunity to own a cat knows that the beasts don't follow orders well. My personal belief is that Squibs have enough magic to form a bond with their familiar (pet) like Harry has with Hedwig, but not enough to channel through a wand. I'd love to hear any counter arguements. Have fun, Corgi From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 11 21:24:37 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:24:37 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > > Theory 1- Multiple Timelines - has a huge unresolvable hole in it. The only hold with this theory is that JKR probably didn't consider > and certainly never wrote what events took place before time > traveling changed things. Tell me again how the future happens before the past? > > > - davenclaw Sandra writes: Thank you a million times over Davenclaw, you eloquently make the point, and also the essential one being that JKR didn't allow any consideration for what happened BEFORE Harry and Hermione went time travelling. There was the original timeline, which is the one where no seeds were chucked at the original Harry (and flowerpot) at Buckbeak's, there was also a series of events where no patronus charged to Harry's rescue, and there was also a series of unfortunate incidents involving Sirius - all on the original timeline. I'm amazed people are still having difficulty with this, just because JKR chose to ignore it. Imagine if they'd made Back To The Future with the same disregard for the original timeline - all we would have seen was Marty getting two teenagers to start dating so that he could be born one day! It doesn't work and is utterly logic-defying unless the original timeline is shown and respected. Now there's a chcken and egg situation which I hope illustrates the point even more simply for some people! LOL. Sandra From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Aug 11 21:25:27 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:25:27 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137319 > > Julia: > > > > It just occured to me so I thought I'll share it with you guys. What > > if Voldemort wouldn't be very pleased with Snape killing Dumbledore? > > I know Voldemort wants DD dead but it wasn't his goal when he gave > > Draco the Mission... > colebiancardi: > well, it could be that Snape *didn't* know about the mission at > Spinner's End - however, he does state to Narcissa, after she asks him > to do it for Draco - that the Dark Lord expect me to do it in the end - > or something similar to that effect (don't have my book on hand). > However, if he didn't know about the mission and Voldemort finds out > that Snape killed DD instead of Draco - I don't know what he will do. > Will he be pleased - after all, DD's dead - I am sure Voldy would have > liked to do it himself, but hey, look at the end result. Or will he > be very angry, as he wanted to punish the Malfoy's and now he cannot - > well, he still can - but you know what I mean. Julia: Here is the exact quote: "Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands [narcissa's]. Looking down into her tear-stained face, he said slowly, 'He intends me to do it in the end, ***I think***. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds I shall be able to remain at hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as a spy.'" IMO when Snape says he THINKS Voldemort intends him to kill DD in the end he expresses his hopes or some assumptions but it's clear to me that he didn't get any orders from his master. That sounds like Snape thinks that Voldemort thinks that Snape will do what is right but without earlier orders... That makes me think that Snape lies, he says that but it's not true - it's just a safe lie. So the fact is that Voldemort didn't inform SS about Draco's Mission probably because he still don't trust him enough to introduce him to the plan of killing DD. How will then Voldemort react? IMO he won't be glad - he's too smart not to be suspicious about Snape's unexpected involvment... Voldemort is not stupid - he knows that DD is the only man who trusts Snape and therefore Snape has no intention of killing him... IMO Voldemort will start to wonder what made Snape do that... Julia From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Aug 11 21:37:48 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:37:48 -0000 Subject: my hopes for the next book was Re: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David & Laura" wrote: > Susan McGee: > > Well, if I were writing these books... > > > > David now: > > Susan, > > You did it. You wrote my book 7. Could you flesh it out a little > please and send it off to JK. > > You forgot to add H and R getting hitched. H becomes MoM leader for > equal rights for all magical entities. R becomes world class Q > keeper. Together they produce another litter of 7 red-haired (but > bushy) Weasley's; including twin trouble-makers. > > Ahhh, book 7 done. > > > David. Oh yes, let's include Petunia's major powers finally emerging as she has to protect Dudders from Dementors searching for Harry...What would her patronus be? A little yappy dog? We should name the children of all the couples.... Harry and Ginny's kids would be: might be Sirius Black Weasley Potter, Albus Dumbledore Potter Weasley, James Harry Weasley Potter, Lily Evans Potter Weasley, Severus Snape Weasley Potter (since Severus saves Harry), Mollywobbles Hermione Weasley Potter, and Arthur Ronald Potter Weasley Hagrid and Olympe would also name their first son Albus VoldemortBane (although Luciusbane sounds better) Remus and Tonks kids? Maybe Romulus James? Sirius Ted? Lily Andromeda.. Susan From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 21:46:45 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:46:45 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: >JKR didn't allow > any consideration for what happened BEFORE Harry and > Hermione went time travelling. There was the original timeline, > which is the one where no seeds were chucked at the original > Harry (and flowerpot) at Buckbeak's, there was also a series of > events where no patronus charged to Harry's rescue, and there > was also a series of unfortunate incidents involving Sirius - all > on the original timeline. I'm amazed people are still having > difficulty with this, just because JKR chose to ignore it. Possibly the easiest way to understand why the "single timeline theory" doesn't work is this: when TT!Harry "enters" the timeline at 6pm, he doesn't appear from nowhere. He comes from the future. He has a memory of what happened 6pm - 9pm or whatever the time frame is. In other words, that time period has already happened once. Would the "single timeline" theorists actually posit that 10pm has already happened at 6pm? But if not, how can TT!Harry have a memory of a time period that hasn't happened yet? Imagine drawing the famous time "line" with a loop from 9pm to 6pm. As you draw this line, you first have to draw 6pm - 9pm before you can draw the loop back to 6pm. This is how the time progresses as well. Note that it isn't a straight line coming from nowhere entering the timeline at 6pm. It's a loop from a time that has already been reached. 6pm - 9pm takes place before time traveling occurs. - davenclaw From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 21:13:33 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:13:33 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137322 houyhnhnm102 wrote: *snip* > Anyway, if Filch is Snape's father, Snape may not resent him all that > much. We don't know that Snape's father was *very* abusive (if that's > whom we are seeing in the memory), just that there was discord. Snape > is very much like him. If Filch/Madame Pinch are Snape's parents (or > just Madame Pinch alone), we can certainly see where Snape gets his > attitudes and social skills (or lack thereof). Both Filch and Madame > Pinch are suspicious, unsocial individuals who think everyone else is > up to no good and it is their job to ferret out the wrongdoers and see > to it that they are punished. That's Snape in a nutshell. > > I'm totally convinced about Madame Pince at this point, but still > unsure about Filch. Ceridwen: I won't be convinced until it either does or does not become canon. JKR has a way of sabotaging all the best theories. However... We don't know that Snape's father was abusive at all. We do know that the screamfest made an impact on the young Snape. (heck, we don't even know for sure that's his father, or even his mother, but it seems probable). I can recall an episode early in my life where my parents fought, and neither was abusive. It made that much of an impact on me. My alternate theory of the invaded memory is that this is when Tobias Snape found out that Sonny-boy was having accidental magic episodes (bowl of mush on his head, perhaps?). If Tobias stayed with his wife after finding out that she was A) a witch and that B) his son was a budding wizard, then he's worlds ahead of Tom 'I'm-outta-here' Riddle. Of course, a despicable man might use his wife's talents to make life easy on himself, so there's always that (I always did wonder about Darren Stevens). Still, we don't know if Tobias stayed with his wife after the argument, that may have been when he discovered that both wife and son were magical (wife hiding it for fear he would leave), and he hit the road immediately after. And, we don't know for sure that he's a Muggle. It's more likely than not, but the actual quote is, '(snipping JKR)...Tobias Snape was a Muggle from what it said in the Prophet.' (HBP pg. 637, US version). Ceridwen, having fun reading all the discussions. From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 21:52:51 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:52:51 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137323 Davenclaw asked: > > > > Um, yeah it does. Tell me again how the future happens before the > past? > > Doddie: I don't have any sort of answer beyond that we know from cannon that time has been studied extensively judging from the artifacts and incidents which took place in the Time Room in the Dept. of Misteries. >From the many examples of the manipulation of time we see(egg-to-bird- to-egg, book shelves tumbling again and again, the DE's aging/age regressing head), I believe we can safely assume that the time turner itself magically handles the sort of paradoxes that can typically occur. As often as Hermione had to time turn throughout poa and no great physical troubles arose is further proof of this.(I believe it was emotionally exhausting for her however.) The future doesn't happen before the past, the future is always an infinite number of possibilities... Doddie (Who is entirely greateful that all the time turners were destroyed in OOP! It is one thing to discuss the physics of time travel out here in muggle world, but a whole other can of worms to disuss the types of charms/spells that must have been used to make a time turner- -let alone the other things in that room. No wonder why they were smashed!) From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 22:08:25 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:08:25 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137324 Julie: I think that Dumbledore is really dead ::big sigh:: (i'm going to miss him a lot) > Maybe the people is the portrait need a certain time sleeping before beginning to speak in the portrait. CV: I think Dumbledore is alive. I think the Draft of Living Death (which I believe was part of the green goo) was effective enough to fool the portraits, the lock on the Headmaster/Headmistress office door and Fawkes. I think he came out of his Living Death at his funeral and made a classicly Dumbledore flashy exit. Did I forget to mention that I think he is a bumblebee animagus? He sent out his phoenix patronus, which Harry saw, then he proved once again that "there are ways of being invisible without a cloak, Harry" and flew away. I presume he is now with Fawkes in another location. My guess is Durmstrang. ~ Constance Vigilance, waiting for Book 7: Harry Potter and the Return of Dumbledore and Quirrell From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 22:40:00 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:40:00 -0000 Subject: GH in Harry's memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137325 SSSusan wrote: > Except that you snipped out the part of my post which explained why > this *is* still possible. When JKR was discussing, in her recent > interview with Melissa & Emerson, how memories viewed in a pensieve > work, she said this: > > "It's reality. ...But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you > could go into your own memory and relive things ***that you didn't > notice the time.***" [Emphasis added.] > > "MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed > personally, but you can go and see yourself? > JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive." > > > SSSusan again: > So I think she's saying there that you *didn't* have to observe or > notice things the first time to be ABLE to observe them via the > pensieve. IOW, if you were there, you *have* the memory -- the > COMPLETE memory -- you just need to pull it out and put it into the > pensieve in order to get the "reality" of it, the fullness of it. > > While it's in Harry's head, it may be just sensory stuff -- green > light, screams, and such -- but pulling it out and placing it in a > pensieve would allow him to get into the WHOLE thing and explore what he didn't observe as a tot. Carol responds: Exactly. The question now is, how is Harry, who failed Occlumency, going to get this memory out of his head. He needs a skilled Legilimens to do it, and the three wizards we know to be Occlumens either won't or can't do it: Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort is the great enemy, and Snape is now at the top of Harry's personal most hated list, whether or not he deserves to be there. I'm wondering if the Legilimens in question might be the brilliant and shrewd old Ollivander, whose disappearance may indicate that he's in hiding. He can remember every wand he ever sold, which may or may not be relevant, and he knew that Hagrid was hiding the pieces of his wand in his umbrella, suggesting that he (Ollivander) may also be a Legilimens (the first of our acquaintance). And those silvery eyes resemble the thoughts in a Pensieve. As for Snape being at Godric's Hollow (an idea mentioned elsewhere in this thread), Bellatrix has already indicated that he wasn't there, and Snape made it clear that he was at Hogwarts at the time, one of the few points Bellatrix concedes as true. If anyone other than the Potters and Voldemort was at Godric's Hollow, it was Wormtail, who later returned Voldemort's wand to him. For the record, Snape's presence at Godric's Hollow is not essential to the Snape loved Lily theory. He could still have shown remorse or even anguish at her death. (My own theory is that he felt his Dark Mark burn horribly, then saw it fade almost to nothing, and then rushed to Dumbledore to tell him that Voldemort must have killed the Potters and been somehow (nearly) destroyed himself. That would account, I think, for Dumbledore's trust in him much more than his presence at Godric's Hollow would.) At any rate, I'm betting that we'll see Harry's (objectified) memory of Godric's Hollow and that Snape won't be in it, but my main reason for responding to this post is to posit Ollivander as the Legilimens who removes the thought (and provides the Pensieve if DD's isn't used). Any takers or detractors? And if it isn't Olivander, who could it be? I can't see Harry removing a thought from his own head (which requires Occlumency, not Legilimency). Carol From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 11 23:06:24 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:06:24 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neri's old theory. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137326 > Alla: > > No, it is far from clear, IMO, in fact what is interesting as Neri > showed that Snape waited several hours for some reason before > notifying the Order. Pippin: Neri and I had some lovely discussions about that theory, and I couldn't shake his belief that the Order's method of communication must be instantaneous. But I can now. It's now canon that the Patronus is the Order's method of communication. Snape had to send a patronus all the way to London, and wait for the answer, before he could determine that Sirius had never left GP. They don't travel at the speed of light. We know this because Tonks and Harry have a very long walk from Hogsmeade to the gates of the castle, and when they get there, they see Snape just leaving the doors. In OOP, Snape had to wait for the answer from HQ, and meanwhile as far as he knew, Harry was out in the forest somewhere, not trying to get to Sirius. Then, when Harry didn't come back, he guessed where Harry must have gone, and sent another message, which had to travel just as far. Maybe Snape should have realized sooner that Harry would try to get to Sirius, but apparently none of the other Order members did either. Hindsight is always 20/20. But come to think of it, you know, we've never seen a wizard cast more than one patronus at a time. Is it even possible? It may be that Snape *couldn't* cast another one until he was sure his message had been received and the first one was no longer needed. Pippin From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 23:19:04 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:19:04 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137328 jjjjjuliep wrote: Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet. ----------------- JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do magic, and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. Second, I think it's pretty clear with Book 6 that Merope is the person how uses magic late in life. The magic late in life comment goes back to 1999: vmonte: Merope? I'm confused, wasn't she a witch already? Didn't she die young? Besides, why would JKR be laughing the way she is in the quote if she was talking about Merope? We have three choices for who this person is: 1. Filch (Who everyone thinks is a Squib.) 2. Mrs. Figg (Am I remembering her name wrong? She is also considered a Squib.) 3. Petunia (Who everyone thinks is a Muggle.) I could see why JKR would giggle about any of the above people turning out to be the late bloomer. But I think it's Petunia. JKR likes to get revenge on nasty characters. She is not going to kill them, that's for sure. Having Petunia and her family die at the hands of DEs would be the worst thing JKR could do. I can see the posts now: I feel so bad for the Dursley's, no wonder they never cared for Harry. This must have been why they resented Harry so much. I really liked it when they locked him in his room and starved him... See where I'm going? But making Petunia a witch would be sweet revenge. This is the worst thing that could happen in Petunia's eyes (except for Dudley turning out to be a wizard) while at the same time be the funniest thing that I could see happening to her. Of course this is just my opinion. Vivian From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Aug 11 23:30:19 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:30:19 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137329 Following up on Valky's points for/against Filch being Tobias Snape in hiding, Though I'm rather skeptical of the possibility, it occurred to me that when Snape comes down to pick up Harry at the gate (HPB chapter 8), Harry at first mistakes him for Filch. This is actually the prelude to the description of Snape that Marika quoted earlier on this thread, in comparing Snape's and Pince's noses: "A lantern was bobbing at the distant foot of the castle. Harry was so pleased to see it he felt he could even endure Filch's wheezy criticisms of his tardiness and rants about how his timekeeping would improve with regular application of thumbscrews. It was not until the glowing yellow light was ten feet away from them, and he had pulled off his Invisibility Cloak so that he could be seen, that he recognized, with a rush of pure loathing, the uplit hooked nose and long, black, greasy hair of Severus Snape." On first reading I wondered what made Harry think of Filch (last time Harry had to be escorted in late it was Snape also, wasn't it?). -- Matt From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 23:32:25 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:32:25 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137330 Marianne wrote: As for the prank, it is a pet theory of mine that the prank happened much later in their school career, perhaps 7th year. A while ago I posted that I think that Severus loved Lily and, even if she didn't return or even know his feelings, he was at least comforted by the fact that Lily hated James. But, again in my theory, it is the very fact that James saves his worst enemy's life that gets Lily to change her mind about him, so not only does Snape owe James a Life Debt, but he loses the girl he loves to him. I put this event in their 7th year because that's when Sirius and Lupin said that James and Lily started going together. Nevertheless, I won't mind being proven wrong; I just hope that exactly what happened during the prank (as well as what happened at Godric's Hollow and why Dumbledore trusted Snape) are three memories I would like JKR to show us in book 7. vmonte: Why would JKR mention that Harry noticed that Lupin looked strange and that he then wondered if the full moon was approaching if it wasn't important? Why add this info at all? Vivian From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 23:39:45 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:39:45 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? Culpable Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137331 I was reading some posts in another group, and someone brought this up, and Since it sorta has something to do with something JKR said in the interview and also Snape's Memory, I was just wondering what all of you though. Now, I love Lupin as much as the next HP fan, but, I was thinking, wasn't Lupin a prefect in fifty year, and I was just wondering, shouldn't he have put a stop to what happened between Snape/Sirius/James. Now, I know, some are still saying the memory was fake or fixed, but Snape did pull it right out of his head in the scene, and we have JKR saying well, Pensive Scene's are real, I wish the interviewer had just asked was the Snape's Worst Memory real, but anywayz. My though is going on that it was real so please don't give me a chopping block if you think its fake, its just a though someone else had. But, Lupin as far as we know isn't evil, but, isn't he culpable for not stopping his friends from abusing another student at school be him prefect or not? I mean, I know its said that well, Snape and James hated each other, maybe they both has tag team hexing matches down the corridors of Hogwarts, but, in that memory Snape wasn't doing anything to them. So....If Snape is culpable for bad actions, isn't Lupin culpable for his neglect of duties as a prefect? To me, his actions make him just as much a party to what James and Sirius were doing. I mean, if he wasn't a Prefect the, it sorta shows that even Neville had more guts than Lupin at a younger age to stand up to his friends and say lay off guys he didn't do anything to us. Lily seemed to be the only one who would stand up and tell them they were wrong. I just wonder, how this all plays out in the end of things, I mean, Sirius even admits when Harry tells him what happened in the Pensive Memory that He wasn't proud of what he did, and, It also says that Harry told them what he saw in the pensive. So, to me if it wasn't a real memory, they would have said hay wait a minute that wasn't how it happened. So, even if Snape does end up being a bad guy, it still seems to me Lupin is wrong for not standing up to his friends, and would that not make him, to use JKR's own word--culpable? Just a though. KarentheUnicorn From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 23:44:56 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:44:56 -0000 Subject: Draco, and his peer group (Was: Why protect the Malfoys?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hyogoetophile" wrote: > The Malfoys are in a position where they could destabilize > Voldemort's alliances, if not destroy some, many, or all of them. > When Voldemort returns in GoF it is said that those in the DE circle > looked as if they loathed to return him, but didn't dare not. In I'm glad someone brought this up! It ties in with some of what I think about Dumbledore's attempt to shake Draco lose from Voldemort. Although I believe Dumbledore's concern for Draco (body and soul) was sincere, I also think it was about more than one student. If Draco became a full DE, many of his peers would line right up to get the dark mark. If Draco is (in hiding and) thought dead, it will probably scare some of his peers out of following his path. And (although this is much less likely), if he was able to be public in his new sentiments, even if that wasn't sufficient to sway all the rest of Slytherin House, it would have broad repercussions. > I think Draco was offered safety because yes, Dumbledore (although > that was not Dumbledore on the tower) is that kind of person. But > also, because the Malfoy family could be very instrumental in > forming a third side, that, even if it doesn't lend support to > Dumbledore/Harry & Friends/Snape/The Order, might at least draw > some away from Voldemort. That's it, exactly! (Except that was Dumbledore on the tower.) Sort of. My personal belief is that Lucius will escape or be released from Azkaban and that the entire family will disappear from the radar for a long time. (Or it may just be Cissy and Draco who go into hiding.) Depending on whether Draco loses Snape or vanishes after he is turned over to his mother or Voldemort, Snape may catch some heat for his disappearance. But I expect this to be one more way in which Bellatrix loses status with Voldemort and the DE's; her sister, nephew, and brother-in-law will be beyond anyone's grasp, and it will make her suspect. That is, if Voldemort allows it to be known that the Malfoys have escaped him (instead of having been murdered). I'd also like to bring up and dispose of the notion of Draco as "an innocent." That is not what Dumbledore said. He said, "Killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe..." I read that "as those innocent of murder believe," not "as innocents believe." I think there is an order of magnitude difference between being innocent of heinous (Unforgivable) crimes and being an innocent. (I don't think I've seen an actual innocent up close in Harry Potter for a couple of volumes now.) I think Dumbledore's reiteration of Draco's innocence was largely manipulative (something I think the headmaster has few scruples about; after all, he chose to be where he could mold young minds instead of going into power politics). And it was justified; it wasn't coercion, but persuasion. If it worked, Draco would actually regain a bit of his innocence; if it didn't work, then not much had been lost by the attempt. Sandy, aka msbeadsley From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Aug 11 23:53:52 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:53:52 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137333 --- "Julia" wrote: > IMO neither Nercissa nor her sister told Voldemort about > the Vow so imagine his surprise when he finds out that out > of blue Snape (who wasn't informed about the Mission or > when Draco will attempt to fulfill it) turns out at the > crime scene AKs Dumbledore grabs Draco and runs away... > I wonder if Snape wouldn't have a hard time explaining how > did he knew about the Mission (I'm absolutely sure that he > lied to Narcissa and he didn't know about Draco mission to > kill DD) .... Not sure what Voldemort will think, though we know Draco thinks Snape will succeed in "stealing his glory" by taking over his mission. Just wanted to respond to the point quoted above: While Snape may or may not have known what the mission was at Spinner's End, the Death Eaters on the tower seem to assume that he knows about it by that point. So presumably either Snape himself has reported back about it, or someone else has reported back about Snape trying to "help out" Malfoy. It's unlikely, therefore, that Voldemort will be surprised to hear that Snape was aware of the mission. -- Matt From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 11 23:57:45 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:57:45 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Marianne wrote: > > As for the prank, it is a pet theory of mine that the prank > happened much later in their school career, perhaps 7th > year. snip... >I put this event in their > 7th year because that's when Sirius and Lupin said that > James and Lily started going together. Nevertheless, I won't > mind being proven wrong; I think that the prank might have happened at the end of the 6th year. As Lily & James began dating in the 7th year, James had a whole year to start cleaning up his act, and the prank probably came into play at that time. But it could have happened in the beginning of the 7th year, as we know, per Sirius & Lupin, that James still hexed Snape at every chance he could(and vice versa, I am sure). Also, why does anyone think that Lily liked Snape? from OotP "There you go," he said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, "you're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus -" "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" Lily blinked. "Fine" she said coolly. "I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." "Apologize to Evans!" James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him. "I don't want you to make him apologize" Lily shouted, rounding on James. "You're as bad as he is..." So, Lily thought James & Snape were equally bad - at this is at the end of their 5th year. The reason why, I think, she stood up for Snape at this particular time, was that he was being ganged up on. And Lupin always stated Lily was kind to *everyone* - even greasy, Slytherin oddballs like Snape. James cleaned up his act for Lily and quit being a prat with everyone else at Hogwarts, except Snape, of course. We have nothing on Snape cleaning up his act - in fact, he became a Death Eater - so it is doubtful he became *good* and then *evil* in a span of a year, as I am sure he was recruited fresh out of Hogwarts. I don't think Snape *loved* Lily either. I think he felt remorse over the Potter's deaths - only because they were good people. Otherwise, that is like saying Neville loves Ginny, because they went to the dance together in GoF. but that's just my opinion of course colebiancardi From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 00:00:35 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:00:35 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137335 My theories on this and I hope this is not something someone else has already posted: I don't think Filch is Snape's father, I think Irma(AKA SNAPEMAMA) likes guys with no magic. (haha) Ok, maybe I'm making it toooooo simple. Here is my wild crazy theory. Lets go back scooby-doo style to the past (Mystery Fade and scooby music sound) OK, lets take little Eileen Prince. Little girl, not all that pretty, not all that special. Eileen is I suppose maybe possibly a pureblood or an almost pureblood. Eileen has a very demanding father, Consider for your enjoyment Tom Riddles Mother and her life with her very cruel dad, ohhh yes, its Daddy dearest. Mean Dad, Daughter isn't good enough. OK, so, Eileen has bad experiences with a very cruel father maybe, lets say maybe she was abused, yelled at, or any number of things bad dad's do. And her though is, Guys with Magic can really hurt you, if you find a guy without magic, he can't hurt you, you can hurt him....and maybe they are nicer. OK, set the scene, Eileen meets a nice muggle boy, maybe her family is pissed, Maybe her daddy disowns her for running off with a Muggle....meh, maybe they don't care, I'm really not going all out for family history here. Just a theory So, Eileen marries muggle boy, but.....muggle boy turns out to be, not so nice. Muggle boy is poor, muggle boy is mean.....darn it muggle boy is just like Daddy...how the heck did that happen. OK, now, this is where my theory splits apart and falls into multi theory land. What if she is abused, what if he is beating her or something like that and in a sudden breaking point she attacks him back and well....kills him?? Maybe SnapeMama isn't hiding from Voldemort, maybe Snapemama is hidning from authorities be them wizard or muggle. Snape Snapemama doesn't have anywhere to go, maybe her family will not take her back, maybe she doesn't have family left. What if the only person she can turn to is the kind man named Dumbledore who was nice to her at school. So, she takes her son, and runs. Perhaps at this point, she hates muggles, she wishes she had never made the mistake of marring one, but obviously maybe little Snape is old enough to know what he is. Dumbledore being the good old guy he is says, lets hide you, change your name and you can work in the library, maybe she has always loved books. Now, enter the unknown territory--HOW did Little Snape come to Hogwarts knowing so many curses? How did he get so bloody smart about that sort of thing when people like Ron Weasley who grew up in a wizard family seem as dumb as someone not exposed to magic their first year. What if....Little Snape has been hiding out at the Library at Hogwarts all these years?? What if, as a child--His mother allowed him to read whatever he wanted in the Library as long as he stayed hidden, didn't bother anyone, didn't distroy anything. What if Severus Snape has been a fixture at Hogwarts a lot longer than any of us realize.....Maybe Mommy has a problem now with Muggles, maybe she's gone batty and raves and rants about how horrible muggles are to her son. How would Lucius who was way above Snape in classes become such good friends with him?? Perhaps he knew him from the little boy in the Library at Hogwarts and saw how talented the little fellow was right off--Now theirs a little Dark Wizard I can manipulate and use in my evil sceme...let me pop off and tell my master all about him. OK..so, how does my theory split, well Like others, I am also thinking, maybe it didn't happen that way and in fact, Snape's father is dead, but his mother is not, He fears if he appears to be disloyal to Voldemort his mother is gonna get axed. So, he asked Dumbledore to help him hide his mum. This one is pretty straight forward and doesn't have the drama of my theory above...but it works equally as well.....anyway... I DO LOVE THE IRMA PINCE I'm A PRINCE theory....OH yea, why does she like Filch?? Well he has no magic you see and she's got a thing for guys with no magic, she can hurt them, but they can't hurt her...and I think that works for both split theories....dada DAAAAaaa... KarentheUnicorn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 00:10:05 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:10:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137336 houyhnhnm wrote: > When Snape arrives on the tower, he is faced with a weakened powerless Dumbledore, four mature Death Eaters, and one teenage Death Eater. Had Snape refused to kill Dumbledore, there could have been only one outcome. Snape would die. Dumbledore would be killed by one of the other Death Eaters. Draco would either be killed on the spot or taken back to Voldemort (I suspect the DEs had orders to kill him on the spot if he failed.) The DEs, including, Fenrir would be loosed upon the school and the casualties could have been much, much worse than they were. > > Dumbledore has to have known this and there's no way he would plead > for his life at such a cost, not for a chance to spend more time with Harry, not to keep Snape from committing murder. I could buy DE!Snape or Out-For-Himself!Snape if Dumbledore had said nothing on the tower. It's the "Severus ... please" that is the incontravertible evidence for me that there has to be another explanation. Carol responds: Exactly. I have little to add to this excellent summary except that Snape undoubtedly saw the two brooms and knew that Harry was there in his invisibility cloak. Being Snape, he must have deduced that DD had immobilized Harry for his own (and the WW's) protection. Knowing that would have added immensely to the unbearable pressure he was already under. I'm also certain that Snape, who learned from Flitwick only that Death Eaters had entered the castle and placed a Dark Mark above the tower, was not anticipating a weakened, possibly dying Dumbledore. That, I think, would have been the most shocking revelation for him--there was no way out of the vow. His options were die with Dumbledore and Draco or live and save Draco, ordering the Death Eaters out of Hogwarts along the way. (I think he'll use his considerable powers of persuasion to persuade Voldemort that Draco did his best, that he enabled the DEs to enter Hogwarts, and that were it not for his efforts, DD would not be dead. There's also the question of whether provisions one and two of the vow still hold.) You mention, rightly, how much worse matters would have been if Snape had not taken matters in hand and told the DEs it was over. That horror would start with Dumbledore. As I said elsewhere, imagine the horror for Harry if he'd had to watch DD savaged by Fenrir Grayback. Much better that Snape killed him with what I believe was Impedimenta disguised as AK. One question for anyone who's interested: What does Snape stand to gain by killing Dumbledore? Nothing, in my view. Power? Where's the evidence that he ever wanted power (as opposed to respect)? "Glory"? His "glory" is infamy. He's lost everything--job, mentor, trust, respectability, freedom (not to mention a year's salary and his possessions). Is life without those things worth living? I don't think so. Choosing death would have been the easy way out. Again, beautiful summation of Snape's dilemma. I can find no flaw in it. Carol From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Aug 12 00:15:08 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:15:08 -0000 Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137337 --- Dave wrote: > I am a new poster to this board, but have been enjoying > all of your posts for some time now. I just thought I'd > throw my 2 cents into the void on some issues. > > > I was surprised about the RAB thing. I thought that was > a strange and rather large twist to throw in this late > in the game. If it took the greatest wizard ever and > "the chosen one" to get the locket, and they almost died > doing it, how did some random DE get in, grab the locket > and leave a clever note? He must be incredibly powerful. You make a number of fine points, Dave. Having thought about it too, I thought I'd jump in with a possible solution to this one inconsistency you point up. I think it is not necessarily so surprising that a rabdom Death Eater (sorry, had to) could have pinched the locket more easily than Dumbledore. Although Dumbledore has strengths Voldemort did not anticipate (lack of squeamishness over the blood sacrifice and the Inferi), he also has a weakness: unlike Voldemort -- and perhaps unlike RAB -- he is unwilling to use others as means to his end. (OK, I'm reading a morality into Dumbledore here, and I know there are those who would paint him as Machiavellian, but I think this view is closer to Rowling's mark.) If we assume that RAB, like Dumbledore, came to the cave with an accomplice, the most difficult part of the mission (getting rid of the potion and still having the wherewithal to nab the locket) becomes much easier. If he (I will adopt the male pronoun on the popular speculation that RAB is Regulus Black) did not care much about his accomplice's fate, he may not even have disturbed the Inferi by dipping into the lake for water. If, moreover, we imagine that as a Death Eater RAB had some inside information about the cave and its protections, if not about exactly what was stored there, it becomes much easier to see him making it through. -- Matt From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 00:39:56 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:39:56 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137338 -> Jen wrote: I had to laugh a little about this. Being almost 40, "quite late in life" doesn't equate with Merope using magic at age 20 or however old she was at the time! And she wasn't a Squib, either, her powers were merely diminished because of her abusive father. When she cast an 'inaudible' spell at the pot she dropped, it sped across the floor. A Squib couldn't do that. And Merope was not in 'desperate circumstances' when she started performing magic, either---that was the best time of her short life when the Gaunt men went to jail! > > I'm pretty certain we haven't seen the event JKR describes above. Carol responds: I agree that we haven't yet seen the event and that it isn't Merope (or Petunia, who has been established over and over again as a Muggle--though I do think she knows more about the WW than she has yet revealed and we'll see that in Book 7). It seems patently obvious to me that the character who performs magic "quite late in life" is not the middle-aged Petunia or the very young Merope but the elderly Mrs. Figg, whom we've already seen in somewhat desperate circumstances defending Harry, and who, I think, will pick up his wand when it's been knocked out of his hand and point it at a Death Eater. (I expect Harry's glasses to be knocked off, too--JKR has said that his eyes are the key to his vulnerability.) Figgy has lived in the WW or on its fringes all her life. She knows its vocabulary (e.g., "The cat's among the pixies now!") and she undoubtedly knows the names of at least some spells and their corrsponding incantations. She could shout "Stupefy!" for example, and the bit of residual magic in her (she can talk to cats and presumably, like Filch, see Hogwarts) would surface--rather like the surge of adrenaline that once enabled 120-pound me to lift the rear end of my car out of a ditch rather than starve to death in a pine forest far from help. Petunia might know which end of a wand is the handle, but it would be no more use to her in a battle against DEs than a spatula. As for Merope, she had the power all along, just not the will or the ability to use it. Her age was very far from advanced, and her circumstances were not nearly as desperate as the battle Mrs. Figg is likely to witness when the Death Eaters come to Privet Drive the moment Harry turns seventeen. (Good point about her using magic when her circumstances became *less* desperate.) Carol, who has liked Figgy ever since she battered Mundungus with those catfood cans From namiepark at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 23:50:06 2005 From: namiepark at yahoo.com (NamiePark) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:50:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny Unknowingly Wearing Love Potion (a great Essay on the subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137339 Phoenixgod wrote: > > > Just today I found a great essay on the subject of Harry/Ginny and > > Love Potions that I found deeply compelling. While I didn't like H/G > > in the book I never subscribed to the love potion theory because it > > strikes me as too conspiracyish but the author of the article lays > > out a very compelling argument that Hermione has dowsed harry with > > love potions in an effort to nudge Harry in Ginny's direction. Hi, this is my first post here so if I make a mistake, please don't be too hard on me. I don't know if anyone has pointed this out before (I've read most but not all of the HBP messages) or not but I don't think a love potion was involved re: Harry/Ginny. We are able to see firsthand how love potion affects someone--when Ron accidentally eats a potion-infused chocolate intended for Harry. He instantly seems to almost go crazy--he can't stop talking about the girl (sorry, can't remember her name)--he's so overtaken with her that he must hunt her down and his mind is singlemindedly and completely devoted to her. Harry's attraction to Ginny, while it did come as a shock to him, seems to have developed more slowly--and certainly did not render him incapable of continuing on with normal activities in his life the way it did with Ron. I suppose Harry could have been affected with a milder potion but I'm inclined to think that JKR purposely showed us the effect of love potion on Ron so that we can identify the symptoms readily and not confuse it with just a growing attraction/romance. IMHO "NamiePark" From ronaldo.bartl at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 00:36:54 2005 From: ronaldo.bartl at gmail.com (ronaldobartl) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:36:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP! H/G indicators of Harry's feelings for Ginny (+ Emma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137340 "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > Yeah, I agree with you. I doubt that H/G was born out of a love > potion. As entertaining as Stalker!Ginny can be I doubt it will be a > storyline. there are too many other more important things to go > over. Ronaldo: Before reading the JKR interview, my take on the potion smell + Ginny smell was a little different: It seems logical that for a love potion to work you would have to add something of yourself, so the drinker fell in love with you, and not with the first person he sees. Now, the potion in class was still pure, and wouldt't make you fall for anyone in particular. At the same time, it made people sense "good" smells, to Harry smells associated with Quidditch or the Burrow. A (relatively) short time after that, Ginny arrives, smelling like the flowers at the Burrow. Now there is something to make the potion "connect" to someone. So perhaps the potion did do something, either creating a minor obsession in Harry's mind, or just opening his eyes to Ginny? This is quite different than she using a potion in any form, or another person doing it. In the above scenario, the whole thing is an accident. Perhaps the potion is stronger than usual, perhaps Harry inhaled too much of it, who knows... After reading the interview, at first I thought "ok, H/G is what JKR wanted all the time, I can live with that", but then I noticed that, later in the same interview, she says "they were going to come together and then part". So maybe there is something different happening in BK7. I think people that ship something different than H/G may have some (little) hope, after all ? "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > guess that H/L could be a ship that would sail. Even in HBP which > was dominated by Harry's unrequited lust for Ginny, the only actual > date we see him go on in the book is with Luna. What's that about? > Ronaldo: My feelings exactly. And he didn't just dump her in the party, they were even holding hands for a while... All in all, he did ask her on impulse, it wasn't like "she is my last resort to escape Romilda & co", and although relieved that she didn't wear her usual "jewelery", it seems he was prepared to accept if she decided to wear it... "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > She didn't explicitly state her pov until after HBP was printed. Ronaldo: I think JKR has a ball reading all teories (sp. shipping teories) and in this book may actually have put a few tidbits just to spice the discussions :-) Ronaldo From lebowjessica at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 00:41:49 2005 From: lebowjessica at yahoo.com (lebowjessica) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:41:49 -0000 Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137341 Matt wrote: > If we assume that RAB, like Dumbledore, came to the cave with an > accomplice, the most difficult part of the mission (getting rid of the > potion and still having the wherewithal to nab the locket) becomes > much easier. If he (I will adopt the male pronoun on the popular > speculation that RAB is Regulus Black) did not care much about his > accomplice's fate, he may not even have disturbed the Inferi by > dipping into the lake for water. If, moreover, we imagine that as a > Death Eater RAB had some inside information about the cave and its > protections, if not about exactly what was stored there, it becomes > much easier to see him making it through. Matt and Dave I think that your theories are right on, in my reread of Chapter 2 page 29 AV I noticed that Bellatrix mentions "the Dark Lord has in the past, entrusted me with his most precious-- (secrets) I that LV told Bellatrix of his Horcruxes and she was responsibile for hiding some of them, this being the locket, and RAB (Regulus) was her cousin, he was the perfect person for her to bring along. I am convinced that she was the person who recruited RB to be a DE, and told him about LV's Horcruxes, by boasting of her being the most loyal and prized DE. I also think that Bellatrix, is the one who killed RB, when he went against LV, if only to save herself from the wrath of LV, and her spilling his secrets. I think that Bellatrix is going to be a big key to book 7 and where and what the remaining Horcurxes are. Jessie From ronaldo.bartl at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 00:47:43 2005 From: ronaldo.bartl at gmail.com (ronaldobartl) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:47:43 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137342 Constance Vigilance > CV: I think Dumbledore is alive. I think the Draft of Living Death > ~ Constance Vigilance, waiting for Book 7: Harry Potter and the Return > of Dumbledore and Quirrell Ronaldo: I thought al the phoenix imagery was a clue to a possible "rebirth", like phoenixes die and then are reborn. The white tomb, that nobody seemed to expect, would be analogous to the egg of the phoenix. So it may take some time, but perhaps DD will be back before the end of BK7. I feel the speech DD gave to the Dursleys in the beginning of the book was a clue to the fact that he didn't expect to be around one year later... Ronaldo From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 12 01:18:04 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:18:04 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: <20050811193520.88197.qmail@web50010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137343 > Corgi: > I think the greatest piece of evidence for determining whether a person is a squib or muggle is their animals. Look at Filch. He's got a cat that can pratically summon him when she spots students around. [...] > My supportive evidence is the only other squib we're intimate with in the series, which is Mrs. Figg. [..] Anyone who has had the opportunity to own a cat knows that the beasts don't follow orders well. houyhnhnm: My cats do exactly what I tell them and I'm a Muggle :-) No, really, I think you've made a good argument. Shucks! One of the things that's kind of annoyed me in the Harry Potter series has been the anthropomorphic behavior of non-magical animals. It took me until the pensieve seen of Tom Riddle in the orphange to figure out that--Oh, they're wizards. That's why they can talk to animals. Duh! From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 01:48:00 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:48:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's Benefits (Was: Dumbledore and Snape again.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Because I'm a good devil's advocate, here goes: > One question for anyone who's interested: What does Snape stand to > gain by killing Dumbledore? Nothing, in my view. Power? Where's the > evidence that he ever wanted power (as opposed to respect)? Power is one of the significant lures for wizards to have ever joined Voldemort in the first place. Consider the discussion between Voldemort (as Tom Riddle) and Slughorn, magics that aren't allowed to be taught at Hogwarts. Those things are presumably being practiced by Voldemort, and perhaps taught by him to his Death Eaters. Bella says that Voldie himself taught her the Dark Arts. Considering that we have Snape as the annotator of a book inventing curses, which escalate to a variety of considerably nastiness, it's not a leap to postulate a young Snape who was very much into that sort of thing. And there is thus the possibility that this is something Snape never lost the taste for--that explains DADA and the "bring out the worst." > "Glory"? His "glory" is infamy. He's lost everything--job, mentor, > trust, respectability, freedom (not to mention a year's salary and his > possessions). At present, yes. But if Voldemort wins and the social order is upset? He's well on the route to elevation, as a premiere DE and the eliminator of one of Voldemort's major problems. > Is life without those things worth living? I don't think so. Choosing > death would have been the easy way out. That's assuming that Snape is not now in a position to benefit, *if* the bad guys win. (Assuming either ESE!Snape or Out For Himself!Snape, of course.) Standing outside of the book, we know that the good guys are very much likely to win. Standing inside of the book, the outcome of the struggle is not so evident. Is Snape the type to hedge his bets? Quite possibly. -Nora refuses to make any claims of certainty From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 01:48:31 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:48:31 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julia" wrote: > > > Julia: > > > > > > It just occured to me so I thought I'll share it with you guys. > What > > > if Voldemort wouldn't be very pleased with Snape killing > Dumbledore? > IMO when Snape says he THINKS Voldemort intends him to kill DD in > the end he expresses his hopes or some assumptions but it's clear to > me that he didn't get any orders from his master. That sounds like > Snape thinks that Voldemort thinks that Snape will do what is right > but without earlier orders... I agree Julia, I've posted before that Snape will not get a hero's welcome, unless Draco, Snape, Narcissa and Bella all lie through their teeth, which is probably a moot point however, since the only reason for Wormtail to be at Spinner's End was to spy on Snape. By killing DD, Snape sealed his fate with the OoTP, and by taking the vow, he has proved himself unloyal to Voldemort. I just fail to see where he gained any points except with Narcissa. It reminds me of the movie "A Few Good Men" where Tom Cruise gets Jack Nicholson to admit that nothing happens on his watch without his orders. Basically, no one questions or acts without the General's approval, including an incident that led to murder--men don't even breathe without permission. Snape tells Narcissa that Voldemort's word is law. Yet he contradicts himself and takes the vow. How can he spin that to Voldemort? "Sorry, your Dark One, I knew that you wanted Draco to be killed but Cissy was such a pathetic crying female that I just HAD to save her son from your evil plan." Draco believes that Snape has been trying to steal his thunder--and he wants to bring him down a notch so he..."won't be the Dark Lord's favorite anymore..." But right before this, it appears that DD is giving Draco inside information: pg 588 HBP AE DD has just told Draco that Snape has been keeping watch over him on his orders: "He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother--" "Of course, that is what he would tell you Draco, but--" It appears to me that he was giving Draco information that would be damaging to OoTP!Snape! I have to wonder why...we have been led to assume that all through the books DD has been planning it to look like he has been taken in by Snape, while the reality is that Voldemort has supposedly been taken in. I really do not see why DD had to give that info to Draco even if he wanted to keep him from being a killer. Does the fact that DD is ready to tell a budding DE that Snape really works for him significant in regard to the theory that DD planned on Snape killing him? Any thoughts out there? From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 02:11:07 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:11:07 -0000 Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 - Kreacher in the cave! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137347 Dave wrote: I was surprised about the RAB thing. I thought that was a strange and rather large twist to throw in this late in the game. If it took the greatest wizard ever and "the chosen one" to get the locket, and they almost died doing it, how did some random DE get in, grab the locket and leave a clever note? He must be incredibly powerful. vmonte responds: It's simple really. Regulus took Kreacher with him and had him drink the potion. Dumbledore tells Harry (when they get into the boat) that Voldemort would not consider a 16-year-old a threat and that is why they were able to get past the enchantments. Voldemort would never even consider a house-elf a threat, and a house- elf could be forced to do as his master commands. This idea came to me when I remembered the scene in HBP where Slughorn made the house-elves taste-test ingredients for poisoning. Vivian From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 02:12:45 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:12:45 -0000 Subject: Harry as a natural legilimens Was Re: GH in Harry's memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137348 Carol wrote: >Exactly. The question now is, how is Harry, who failed Occlumency, >going to get this memory out of his head. He needs a skilled >Legilimens to do it, and the three wizards we know to be Occlumens >either won't or can't do it: Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort is the >great enemy, and Snape is now at the top of Harry's personal most >hated list, whether or not he deserves to be there. > >I'm wondering if the Legilimens in question might be the brilliant >and shrewd old Ollivander, whose disappearance may indicate that >he's in hiding > >Any takers or detractors? And if it isn't Olivander, who could it >be? I can't see Harry removing a thought from his own head (which >requires Occlumency, not Legilimency). Saraquel: Slughorn. He managed to extract his memory quite nicely for both DD and Harry. I see no problem in him teaching Harry how to do it. I'm wondering why you think it takes Occlumency to extract a memory. Here is what Snape tells Harry about Occlumency and Legilimency in OotP (UK ed p468) "Now Occlumency . This branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence. The Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency ? " "What's that? Sir" "It is the ability to extract feelings and memories fron another person's mind ?" "He can read minds?" "You have no subtlety, Potter," said Snape ."You do not understand fine distinctions .The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter It is true however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly." Then later on p469 Snape says "The evidence suggests that at times, when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable ? when you are asleep for instance ? you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions." (Harry) "I saw the snake attack Mr Weasly." (Snape)"the vision you had shortly before Christmas represented such a powerful *incursion* upon the Dark Lord's thoughts." Sorry I've had to snip that to death in order not to type out the whole book, and would recommend re-reading the whole passage which is very interesting. Anyway there are two things I want to point out here: 1) Occlumency is the ability to *mask* thoughts and feelings. In order to do it, you make your mind a blank (the homework Snape gave Harry). I really don't think that this is how you would extract a memory. I think you need to engage very clearly with one part of the memory, hook your wand into that, pull, and everything related to it comes away with it. I don't even think you need to be a Legilimens, which is the magical penetration of *other people's* minds. I think it is probably something that most good witches/wizards can do. Probably McGonegal could teach Harry. 2) I think that one of the powers which Voldemort transferred to Harry is Legilimency. Harry is a natural legilimens. The above quote indicates to me that Snape is trying hard (and I've snipped bits which explain how careful Snape is in his explanation!) not to let Harry realise this. Snape eventually uses the word *incursion* which to me implies that it was Harry delving into Voldemort's mind not Voldemort delving into Harry's, that we are dealing with here. Later, when Harry manages to bounce Snape's Legilimency spell, Harry easily accesses Snape's head, and manages to interpret, very easily what is going on in there. A real natural. If true, this raises some questions: Presumably DD realises that Harry is a Legilimens and the danger of seeing what's in Voldemort's mind is many layered. DD later says to Harry in HBP, that he is amazed (paraphrasing wildly here) that Harry, with such access as he has to Voldemort's mind hasn't been turned to the dark arts. So, I think, it is not only to protect Harry from Voldemort's cruelty and to protect Order Secrets that DD wants Harry to learn Occlumency. (Mind you, if DD had thought about it for even half a second, he would have known that Harry would make a hopeless Occlumens.) But in order to protect Harry from temptation. So Snape is now given the task of teaching Harry (whom he suspects to be a natural legilimens) occlumency. If Snape is ESE! What a great task that would be. Was this also a test of Snape by DD? If he is ESE! I'm amazed that it's only 3 memories we see go into the pensieve, I would have thought a 5,000Gb one would hardly have been enough to store the stuff he would want to hide. It's no good, I keep coming up with evil Snape on the side of good evidence (though quite probably only because it serves his interests to be so, or he has no choice about it) ? I'm just going to have to come down on that side of the fence sooner or later :-) This was only going to be a one word post ? Slughorn ? but somehow I'm now knee deep in Snape speculation, how did that happen? I must admit that I've had Snape speculation up to my eyebrows and can take no more at the moment. The Snape arguments seem to me akin to the unstoppable force meets the immovable object. So how about I take my thinking about Harry's natural legilimency in a different direction and let others argue that angle out (which undoubtedly they will if anyone reads this post, and I'm wondering if anyone will get as far as reading the next bit of the post before rushing off to either contradict me or grab my thoughts as yet more pro-Snape evidence.) Harry, Voldemort and legilimency. OOOhhhhh the possibilities for the future in that one. How about the final showdown being a lot to do with minds and not much to do with bodies? OK here's a theory (I've posted a bit of it before, but now I'll expand more) which takes into account DD's *gleam* (this bit's for you Valky!), blood and the power of love. In the final showdown Harry and Voldemort lock minds, Voldemort intent on probing Harry's emotional weaknesses and Harry intent on probing Voldemort's fears. Let's put them either in the Room of Love at the MOM (a favourite theory of mine which I'm reluctant to let go of) or if not there, then Harry at least has been into the Room of Love and can make a connection to it. Now Voldemort has some of Harry's blood in him. Blood, I think, is where emotion lies. Voldemort is very snake-like physically, therefore cold blooded and vulnerable to being burnt by the heat of passionate emotion, such as Love. Harry, who by this time has realised the *Power* of Love that DD has been talking about, uses the access he has to Voldemort's mind to channel this love into Voldemort and into his blood, Voldemort's blood boils and hey presto ? dead Voldemort. This is why DD had the gleam in his eye, because Harry's blood is full of love, and therefore has the potential to destroy Voldemort from the inside. Ok, so where's the cannon support for all this. Yes well, dream on Saraquel! From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 02:28:02 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:28:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neri's old theory. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137349 > Pippin: > Neri and I had some lovely discussions about that theory, and > I couldn't shake his belief that the Order's method of > communication must be instantaneous. > > But I can now. > > It's now canon that the Patronus is the Order's method > of communication. Snape had to send a patronus all the way > to London, and wait for the answer, before he could determine > that Sirius had never left GP. > > They don't travel at the speed of light. > > We know this because Tonks and Harry have a very long > walk from Hogsmeade to the gates of the castle, and when > they get there, they see Snape just leaving the doors. > > In OOP, Snape had to wait for the answer from HQ, and > meanwhile as far as he knew, Harry was out in the forest > somewhere, not trying to get to Sirius. Then, when Harry > didn't come back, he guessed where Harry must have > gone, and sent another message, which had to travel > just as far. > > Maybe Snape should have realized sooner that Harry > would try to get to Sirius, but apparently none of the other > Order members did either. Hindsight is always 20/20. > Neri: The fact that the Order's method of communication isn't instantaneous doesn't make things better for Snape. If at all, it makes them worse. In Umbridge's office Snape realizes (according to DD) that Harry had just had a vision of Voldy holding Sirius in the DoM. Snape now has to send his patronus to HQ with a query regarding Sirius' whereabouts, and until this patronus is back with the answer (we don't know for how much time) he must assume this is a full emergency situation, especially in light of what happened to Arthur several months before, and he has to act accordingly. Snape doesn't need a 20/20 hindsight to realize that letting Harry wonder with Umbridge into the Forbidden Forest in a time like this would be extremely irresponsible. I remind you that at this point Harry had already survived an assassination attempt by Ministry dementors, and was guarded by the Order throughout the year. In addition, before HBP I assumed Snape had to go to his office (or to another place) in order to use a two-way mirror or a Phineas Nigellus portrait or something like that. Now it turns out that all he had to do was to step out of Umbridge's office, wave his wand and send a patronus, and then wait behind a corner to see what Umbridge would do. He could follow Umbridge, Harry and Hermione from a safe distance to see where would they go. So this is the end of all the nice stories about Snape having to revive the Inquisitorial Squad members in order to find out where Umbridge took Harry. Moreover, once Snape knows that Umbridge is in the Forest and her office is wide open, I see no reason why he can't use her fireplace to communicate with 12GP instantaneously, as soon as he can get some passing students to ferry the IS members out to the hospital wing. The time it takes a patronus to reach London thus seems rather irrelevant to this discussion. Neri From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 02:41:33 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:41:33 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137350 > Valky wrote: > > At last after HBP I *finally* have > > canon backing for this... (Thanks JKR!) and that backing is in > > Harry's detentions with Snape. The James and Sirius v Snape feud > > went on for many years..... .....edit... > > ........ And who of the two, was never > > in detention although guilty of the same and possibly worse, > > seemed so completely feckless that a girl came across the lawn to > > defend him, and even some 20 years later still utterly denies he > > was anything but perfectly innocent of it all so much that he'd > > rather shift the blame to an innocent child than face the *truth* > > about himself.. well that would be Severus Snape. (A Sniveller) > >SSSusan (wrote me and invited me to respond onlist): >This I don't get, Valky. WHERE in HBP did you get the information >that this was always -- ongoing -- a two-way street and yet that >Snape never served detentions? What are you saying about *why* he >never served detentions? I guess I'm thinking... isn't it possible >that Sirius & James were in detention more because they did more >wrong? Or do you think Snape weasled his way out of detentions... or >just made sure Harry didn't see the Snape detention cards? > >Sorry for being dense, but I'm just not clear on this part. Valky now: I don't mind answering that SSSusan. So to your first question, I don't get from HBP that this was an ongoing two-way street. To clarify what I meant, I was saying that I believe Sirius tells us the truth about Snape'a activities in school ie: known dabbler in Dark Arts, always hexing James, following the Marauders *trying to get them expelled*. It is on this that I base my premise that canon suggests the actions of each party were to fairly equally malignant. To the second question, HBP canon shows that Snape was not serving detentions for his hexing of James, and James and Sirius were serving detention for innumerable petty misdeeds according to the records Harry was rewriting. So if Snape was hexing James, probably no less painfully than James was hexing any of his multiple targets, why wasn't Snape ever punished. Either you believe that Sirius is an out and out Liar now or you realise Snape was getting away with it. The pensieve scene definitely suggests that Lily wasn't aware of what Snape was doing to James (and I really think that James rathered to look like a monster than sulk to the girl that Snape had hurt him many times before). And please remember that I'm not trying to justify the bullying (I do have to keep disclaiming that because sometimes it will seem that I am) I am simply saying that James apparently did a share of suffering at Snape's hands, but he wasn't complaining about it. According to a lot of canon we have, it wan't a bed of roses for James, and I don't think we should read the Pensieve scene without that in mind. Snape is the one who has complained constantly about what James did to him, granted James definitely wasn't nice to Snape, but I think that the point gets missed because it's well hidden. In many ways, James was just winning fights in the battle and he was proud of his ability to *face the fight front on*. Overly proud, yes, but still.. Snape attacks from behind, so I think James in his own mind thought it was pretty clear and obvious that he wasn't so bad compared to Snape. And I think that this is why Sirius thought so too. I guess you could say that it's a shadow puppet show in canon, you have to be looking to make the connection and realise that there are blanks to be filled. To me the name Snivellus quite easily fills the gap and animates in 3d this picture. James and Snape were hurting each other... all the time... on and on and so forth. Snape was complaining about it, and James wasn't. Snape was hitting James in the back of the head and when they faced each other James and Sirius would go overboard with toying with Snape while they had him helpless. Both parties thought that they were the better than each other for their behaviours, and it's up to you to decide what you believe about it. In my mind neither were behaving better than the other. But I do defend James the Berk that he was not a pampered evil bully. The canon doesn't support it. He was an idiot, a boofhead, a berk, but through it all he didn't have a smooth ride of it, he was Snapes Guinea Pig too, and he tried to deal with that as courageously as he could, he didn't complain that it hurt or cry and bemoan his misfortune for getting zapped with all of Sevvies latest Dark (or otherwise) Creations. Like his son, he stood his ground (and a bit more which I am not trying to justify please remember)and said he wouldn't take it lying down. >Valky: > > If any Snape lovers are still reading, this is the reason I have > > for believing that Snape can be redeemed again. For the first time > > ever in the series I did see tiny glimpses of him in HBP *finally* > > facing his own truth and walking the path he laid for himself > > bravely, like a man ready to open himself to this Agape - > > Judgement love. >SSSusan: >Can you tell me where you saw these glimpses? Not challenging you; >just want to know. :-) Valky now: Yeah I'd like to, but like I said it's glimpses so it will be slow to compile fully. The basic gist of one part of it is that I saw Snape trying to hide a changed attitude to Harry. I believe I know, and that DD knew and found it amusing also, that Snape grew to respect and like Harry Potter as much as he would preferred to have kept hating him, I have a strong feeling that this thing that DD was taking for granted according to Snape was that Harry was all the WW needed to vanquish Voldemort and that Snape would help *Harry* and be loyal to *Harry* with or without Dumbledore. DD smilingly knew Snape believed it in spite of himself. The canon that I base this all on is wide and varied, but I began on it in my Human Snape posts and I will continue with it if I can find the time. For now I'll just go on to the reason that I see this as "facing his own truth and walking the path he laid for himself bravely, like a man ready to open himself to this Agape". Harry represents many of Snape's most frightening truths about himself, that he has done wrong, that he is really Severus Snape - the forever shamed accomplice to murder, and not Harry - the Great and modest Hero of the WW. Not only does it pain hims to see James image revered above him (James! the arrogant self-serving so and so..) but also faced with Harry he's faced with the ugliest truth of all, that his own choices were behind it, that he made this god awful choice to serve Voldemort and clamp himself in the jaws of his own worst nightmare. Up until recently, all Snapes facing of Harry, seemed to be forced, and Snape seemed almost capable of any thing that would put distance between them. In my interpretations of previous canon Snape would have been happy to get Harry out of his life for good riddance. But in HBP I find it hard to believe that he still feels this way. He seems to want to face Harry more than ever. I really should get some canon shouldn't I. COS Chapter five: "Well you're expelling us aren't you?" said Ron ... ... "Not today, Mr Weasley," said Dumbledore ..... .... Snape looked as though Chrismas had been cancelled. HBP Chapter Two ".... I have done my utmost to have him thrown out of Hogwarts. Where I believe he scarcely belongs. ..." HBP Chapter Twenty-four "Do you know what I think Potter?" said Snape vey quietly. "I think you are a liar and a cheat and that you deserve detention with me every Saturday until the end of term. What do you think Potter?" The news had travelled very fast: apparently Moaning Myrtle had taken it upon herself to pop into every bathroom in the castle to tell the story; Malfoy had already been visited in the hospital wing by Pansy Parkinson, who lost no time in vilifying Harry far and wide, and Snape had told the staff precisely what had happened: Harry had already been aclled out of the common room to endure fifteen highly unpleasant minutes in the company of Professor MacGonagall, who told him he was lucky not to have been expelled... So why the change of heart from Severus. He wasn't hiding the fact that Harry had used the Dark Magic in the bathroom. If Snape told the staff precisely what had happened according to Harry's POV then any suspicions of Snapes incantation were in the open. He *wasn't* hiding that. But he was acting differently, on this first ever _Sure as Eggs_ chance that he could get Harry expelled and out of his life for good, he does the exact opposite. He plans to spend every weekend for the rest of the school term sitting beside his worst nightmares incarnate. Harry didn't stop being James' and Lily's son, and now more than ever he is as famous and arrogant as Snape ever hated him for being. Yes Harry is still all the things that Snape couldn't never stand facing. And yet he throws his one opportunity to never look at him again, out the window in place of the opportunity to spend more time with him than he would ever need to. Why? My personal take is as above. Snape is facing himself. Finally going beyond the barricade he had placed around himself to shelter him from the agape love that could forgive him for all he had done if he could just face it, to become curious about the power and the freedom of the truth. A lot longer an answer than I intended, I hope that you get the gist of what I am saying about that. Now I must jump threads to another topic. Thanks for the Questions SSSusan :D Valky From AllieS426 at aol.com Fri Aug 12 02:41:31 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:41:31 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" > wrote: > > > > > Tell me again how the future happens before the past? > > > > > > - davenclaw > > Sandra writes: > Thank you a million times over Davenclaw, you eloquently make > the point, and also the essential one being that JKR didn't allow > any consideration for what happened BEFORE Harry and > Hermione went time travelling. There was the original timeline, > which is the one where no seeds were chucked at the original > Harry (and flowerpot) at Buckbeak's, there was also a series of > events where no patronus charged to Harry's rescue, and there > was also a series of unfortunate incidents involving Sirius - all > on the original timeline. I'm amazed people are still having > difficulty with this, just because JKR chose to ignore it. <> I, too, have a lot of trouble understanding what happened before they went back in time and wonder why so many people don't have a problem with it. For me, really, there's only one big unresolved question: WHO CAST THE FIRST PATRONUS? Harry, Hermione, and Sirius collapse on the beach, surrounded by Dementors. SOMEBODY CASTS A PATRONUS AND SAVES THEM. If this event did not occur, Harry would be dead, therefore unable to go back in time and save them all. I do not buy for one second the theory that "it only happened once, it was Harry all along" - because if it only happened once, THERE IS NO TIME TRAVEL!!! (There's a big "it only happened once" essay on the HP Lexicon that I do not believe.) This topic really annoys me because it's such a huge plot hole and I'm afraid that if there is more time travel in HP7, I'm going to be left very frustrated with the conclusion of the series. I suppose I can create a scenario in my head where somebody just happened to be on the other side of the lake, or maybe Snape came out of his faint and cast the charm, thereby saving H/Hr/Siruius the first time. Then, when they go time travelling, Harry saves them, causing Harry-from-the-past to think his dad saved them. Still a plot hole (where is the first person to cast the charm now, when Harry does it?), but less of one than before. Or, if nobody cast a Patronus the first time, how did they survive? Wait, I know, Dumbeldore, from his office, has to send Snape the urgent message that Sirius is innocent, so he uses his Patronus as a messenger, coincidentally saving them all!!! (I am *so* kidding about that...) I posted on this topic a long time ago and only got the "it only happened once" answer in reply, very unsatisfying. Does anyone have any other ideas?? Have any been posted already that I haven't seen? Who saved them the first time around??? Allie From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 02:48:42 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RL/SB SHIP Canon Evidence (was SHIP and RL experiences) In-Reply-To: <005b01c59e8c$531fa500$d524f204@pensive> Message-ID: <20050812024842.9207.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137352 Sherry: Excellent post, even though I don't believe romantic RL/SB at all. However, let me talk a little about friendship. i've always seen the relationships among the marauders--except for Wormtail of course--as an example of the true depth and strength of friendship. That's how I see the relationship between Remus and Sirius. It feels as natural and much like deep true friendship as my friendships do. Even the joint Christmas present seems like a gesture two friends would do, as I and my friends have done the same thing. I suppose as so much else in the books, we see this relationship through the prism of our own experiences, and I see Remus and Sirius as the glimpse of what the marauders once were. Juli now: I agree 110% with you Sherry. I've read the "evidence" of S/R ship, but as I see it, it's just friendship, a great friendship, nothing else. All those exemples from the canon where the relationship could be taken as romantic are very circumstancial, you can take it either way, personally, I wouldn't even consider the ship as a possibility, to me, it's quite clear, but of course, it's just my opinion. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 12 02:48:56 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS was almost HBP: What does that mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050812024856.39753.qmail@unknown-206-190-38-164.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137353 lupinlore wrote: In our discussions about HBP, I don't think I've seen a discussion of one salient fact that came up in JKR's interviews, that she almost named the second book HBP. Furthermore, she said that no trace of the HBP storyline remained in CoS, as she thought the story more appropriate for sixth year as opposed to second. Now, this raises all sorts of interesting questions. Her statement implies that she originally intended for some of the events in HBP to happen in the second book. Which ones? And what does that mean for the importance of the events of HBP? Does that make them more important, or less important? And does that cast any light at all on the infamous question of Severus Snape? First of all, I suppose it probably means that Harry was going to use the HBP text (or some version thereof) in second year. Otherwise I don't know how he might have "interacted" with the prince. But does that mean that Snape originally was to have been the DADA teacher in the second year? How was Harry going to get his hands on the book? If Snape had been teaching potions surely he would have noticed Harry using his old formulas. Of course if you are one of the people who argues that Snape MEANT Harry to use his old book in HBP, I suppose the same might have happened in CoS, except that the whole idea of Snape wanting Harry to use his book seems like a remote and contrived possibility to me -- as contrived as many of the Puppetmaster!Dumbledore theories. How could he have known Slugworth would give the book to Harry? Or was the original book of the prince not going to be a potions book at all, but something like a diary? And what about the plot that DOES exist in CoS as we have it? Would Ginny still have used Riddle's diary? Two mysterious diaries/journals in one book seems like overkill (which may be part of the reason JKR moved the HBP plot). Does this mean Snape was originally to have left Hogwarts at the end of CoS? Does this mean that Dumbledore was to have died in the second book (something I highly doubt)? Does this mean that the popularity of Snape's character caused JKR to change her mind (I've always thought she doesn't have things plotted out as firmly as she likes to claim) and keep him around longer? Or maybe she just thought a reversal (apparent or not) in his character would be too soon after his saving of Harry in PS/SS. Does any of this have any bearing at all on Snape Evil or Good? I don't see how, frankly. I could see some version of HBP happening in second year with Good!Snape, Evil!Snape, and OutForHimself!Snape. Anyway, what does everyone else think? Lupinlore Luckdragon: I've never heard about the possibility of the second book being titled HBP; but I know Jo said there were connections and foreshadowing between the books. I can think of several connections in particular: 1) Aragon 2) The diary(horcrux idea) 3) Borgin & Burkes 4) Vanishing cabinet 5) Hand of Glory 6) DD's memories of Tom Riddle 7) Fawkes 8) Ginny/Harry connection 9) Polyjuice potion use 10) Harry goes from Dursley's to the burrow 11) Weasley's take Harry shopping in Diagon Alley. 12) Voldemort is not seen. I'm sure there are many more. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 03:06:20 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Significant Sevens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050812030620.74248.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137354 Trish wrote: I have been thinking a lot about seven. Seven books. Seven horcruxes. JKR's interview stating the importance of Ginny being the seventh daughter of the seventh daughter and having magic powerful..that we will see in the seventh book and, I was wondering, what are the other significant sevens?? Can we list them? Juli: SEVEN is a powerful number in Potterverse, if you check out Jo's website, this month's Wizard of the Month is the witch that discovered the magical properties of the number 7. I think she's trying to give us a hint there. Here're some references to 7 from the books: Philosopher's Stone He paid seven gold Galleons for his wand, and Mr. Ollivander bowed them from his shop. (Harry's first trip to Diagon Alley) And he was off, explaining all about the four balls and the positions of the seven players, describing famous games he'd been to with his brothers and the broomstick he'd like to get if he had the money. (Ron talking about Quidditch) They didn't stop running until they reached the portrait of the Fat Lady on the seventh floor. (Entrance to Gryffindor's common room) If they won their next match, against Hufflepuff, they would overtake Slytherin in the house championship for the first time in seven years (Gryffindor in Quidditch) He pulled open the next door, both of them hardly daring to look at what came next - but there was nothing very frightening in here, just a table with seven differently shaped bottles standing on it in a line. (The 7 potions to get to the PS) Chamber of Secrets Harry yanked his robes straight and headed for a seat at the very back of the class, where he busied himself with piling all seven of Lockhart's books in front of him, so that he could avoid looking at the real thing. Prisioner of Azkaban "Right into Hogsmeade," said Fred, tracing one of them with his finger. "There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four" -- he pointed them out -- "but we're sure we're the only ones who know about these. (The 7 secret passages to Hogsmeade) And the Acid Pops? Fred gave me one of those when I was seven -- it burnt a hole right through my tongue. (Ron) there have been only seven Animagi this century, and Pettigrew's name wasn't on the list. (Hermione in the Skrieking Shack) Goblet of Fire He let out a short, harsh laugh, and pointed to the large trunk under the window. It had seven keyholes in a row. Harry wondered what was in there, until Moody?s next question brought him sharply back to earth. (Moody's trunk, in the 7th was the real Moody) "Socks are Dobby's favorite, favorite clothes, sir!" he said, ripping off his odd ones and pulling on Uncle Vernon's. "I has seven now, sir. . . . But sir ..." (Dobby at Christmas) "They turn silver when they're abou' two years old, an' they grow horns at aroun four. Don' go pure white till they're full grown, 'round about seven. They're a bit more trustin when they're babies .. . don mind boys so much.... C'mon, move in a bit, yeh can pat 'em if yeh want. . . give 'em a few o' these sugar lumps. . . (Hagrid in COMC explaining Unicorns) ...7 sure is magic... Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 03:20:36 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:20:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inferi Schminferi In-Reply-To: <1123811823.1588.41138.m32@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123811823.1588.41138.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd050811202075531095@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137355 Prep0strus wrote: Was anyone else rather unimpressed with the Inferi? I mean, aside from the extreme echhh/jibblies factor, they didn't pose much of a challenge. I wouldn't expect the production of fire to be beyond the capabilities of an average adult wizard. Sure, being frightened, creeped out, shocked, horrified etc (especially if you knew one of the inferi when they were alive) would affect your reaction, but I don't recall anything that would make me think a ring of fire would be hard for a trained wizard to produce. Dumbledore is very powerful, but was also very weakened, and managed to do it. If citizens took some preparation classes, and had 'inferi drills', so that rings of fire was a well rehearsed spell.... I figure, I must be forgetting something that would make them a real threat. Help, anybody? ================== Lisa responds: Actually, when I read what Inferi were, my first thought was, "Oh, how horrible -- Voldemort is going to use Harry's parents against him!" Or Sirius, or Dumbledore, or whoever dies in Book 7. Of everything that's been in the books to date, that single thought sent shivers down my spine -- how best to paralyze Harry? By having his parents standing in front of him. As long as he had access to fire (and being a wizard, we'll assume he does), he wouldn't be in physical danger ... but WOULD he, psychologically, be able to repel his parents? Enter the redemption of Snape, at that point, to "kill" his parents, in essence, AGAIN, in order to assist him? Oh, it's just too disturbing ... Lisa/SassyMommyOfThree From ladyljd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 03:32:42 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:32:42 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neri's old theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137356 Neri: > So this is the end of all the nice stories > about Snape having to revive the Inquisitorial Squad members in order > to find out where Umbridge took Harry. Ladyljd: Perhaps, but it could be the beginning of discusion of why Snape was arrogant enough to believe that Potter would just trust him to take care of the problem. He could also have trusted Potter to handle himself with Umbridge in the Forbidden Forest while he dealt with the Sirius problem. Just a thought ... Ladyljd From grega126 at aol.com Fri Aug 12 04:49:01 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:49:01 -0000 Subject: Draco's absence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137358 So at the Slytherin/Gryffindor Quidditch match (American edition, page 297): "Oi, Harper!" yelled Harry in desperation. "How much did Malfoy pay you to come on instead of him?" He did not know what made him say it, but Harper did a double take... So now that we've read HBP in its entirety and know Draco actually did pay him off, how did Harry know? Was it just a guess? Was it a particulary clever insight on Harry's part? Or, was it some sort of accidental Legimency? Greg From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 06:39:07 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:39:07 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137359 > vmonte: > We have three choices for who this person [the later-in-life magic user] is: > > 1. Filch (Who everyone thinks is a Squib.) > 2. Mrs. Figg (Am I remembering her name wrong? She is also considered > a Squib.) > 3. Petunia (Who everyone thinks is a Muggle.) > > I could see why JKR would giggle about any of the above people > turning out to be the late bloomer. > > But I think it's Petunia. JKR likes to get revenge on nasty > characters. She is not going to kill them, that's for sure. Having > Petunia and her family die at the hands of DEs would be the worst > thing JKR could do. > Antosha-- But JKR has flat-out said she's a Muggle. And--so she told us--she's never knowingly lied when asked a question. There's no way that Petunia could turn out to be a witch without that quote becoming a willful misstatement of fact. However, I was reading to my daughter last night and we got to a description of Professor Slughorn and something occurred to me: he sounds like he's related to Vernon. What if Vernon and Marge's mother had been a Squib niece of the portly Slytherin? By this reckoning, my guess is that the later-in-life mystery magic user will be Dudley. Which would make a different kind of sense out of Dumbledore's admonition that the Durselys have been abusing Dudley. What if they've been suppressing his natural--if not particularly large--magical ability? From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 12 07:01:38 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:01:38 -0000 Subject: Filch Squib/Muggle/Tobias WAS Re: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137360 I'm not willing to fully buy the idea that Filch really is Snape's father, but I can picture a scenario where an Abusive!Tobias refuses to go into hiding. I tend to think of abusive people as people who are scared of loosing control or not being in charge. Therefore I can see such a person not accepting protection from somebody else, since that would make him dependent of others, and in his own mind he would loose his face. A possible solution to this dilemma would be to modify Tobias's memory. His personality is still there, but he now thinks of himself as a squib, and he does not remember being married and having a child. If Eileen and/or Snape still care about him it would be logical that they would want him out of danger (or at least be out of the way), but I can also see them having mixed feelings for him, and in that case it does seem lika a fitting punishment to let: ? him guard a whole castle full of children (nasty brats in his mind), and not be able to give them (what he thinks) proper punishments. ? to address his son in a respectful way and do what he is told. ? to carry the not so charming name Filch :-) Marika From irreality at mit.edu Fri Aug 12 07:39:37 2005 From: irreality at mit.edu (komagata_mai) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:39:37 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137361 allie says: > > I posted on this topic a long time ago and only got the "it only > happened once" answer in reply, very unsatisfying. Does anyone have > any other ideas?? Have any been posted already that I haven't > seen? Who saved them the first time around??? > So If there was such ain idea in the HP universe of Multiple timelines (in order to go back in time, you make a new past, with the timetraveler in it) it would be a paradox. In the multiple timeline scenario, you can go back in time and kill your grandfather. However, in the multiple timeline scenario, you cannot be your own grandfather, the child born of you would not be the same kid as yourself. JKR uses the one timeline version of timetravel. Time is like a spatial dimension, and there is only one-dimensional (it does not branch out). All of time exists at the same time, you just happen to experience sequentially as a consequence of being human. The TimeTurner basically creates a second copy of yourself at that moment in time, and the two harry's act independently at that moment in time. Its as if all of time was conceived of "at the same time", the characters just experience it in that order, so it seems to create a paradox. For example, when Hermione misses charms, she cannot just turn the timeturner back an hour and go to charms now that she is reminded of missing charms. Because it didnt happen that way. There is no alternate timeline where Hermione can go to that charms class. She didnt go, and no amount of her wanting to go will change the "past" so to speak. Ultimately, you could get into a big debate of how this view of time is deterministic and undermines the whole concept of a character being able to make choices. (can harry really "choose" to use the time-turner when he knows it happened already?) but that is a whole other debate. mariana lurker. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 07:40:55 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:40:55 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mari" wrote: > Wanted to respond to some thoughts in this absolutely great thread :-D Valky: I'm glad you're enjoying it Mari. :D > Mari: > > This is something I've been turning over in my mind a lot in > relation to the Harry Potter series. JKR certainly seems to be > leading us towards a concept of love that is not just a feeling, it > is a *choice*. Love can mean choosing to do something that totally > goes against your inclinations, but you do it anyway because it is > the right or necessary thing to do. Valky: I think you're right about that Mari. I don't think it can be argued against at all. By JKR's own admission, the HP series explores death and its finality. Through Dumbledore we know that there is a distinct supposition about choices and a persons free will being explored in the themes and by virtue of the storyline we are informed that Love is to be revealed as the greatest power of all the magic that we'll see in the Potterverse. If we are looking for Love and Choice and the finality of death rolled into some tangible climax to the series I reckon that the Agape (the God Love) as viewed from this last Judgement standpoint has got to be right on the money. Choosing what's right over what is easy, does sum up much of what can be said about this kind of Love. And as I said to you earlier, and can't pass the opportunity to say again, it doesn't seem like love, it's not an emotion or a feeling, it's actually so pure it's brutal, like the Love that Burned Quirrels face at the end of PS/SS. But to face it and accept it, as Harry will have to in the end of his series, then it is like Phoenix Tears, a panacaea for all pain and suffering. So it will parrallel the Phoenix song at the end of GOF, that song is a representation of the same kind of Love, something so pure that it strikes fear in the heart of the impure and bolsters the good with courage and strength. Gosh I could go on and on.. lets just say it can't be argued that this concept is outside the box that JKR is thinking in. Mari: > It is very easy to think of love as > a 'mushy' feeling; agape/last judgement love has little to do with > our feelings and everything to do with the choices we make in > relation to other people. The loving choice is not always the choice > we want to make. The loving choice is not always the easy choice. > The loving choice can mean sacrificing reputation, friends, trust, > or even your life, if necessary. Valky: I see in there a smallish nod towards the things I said about the Pensieve incedent too, Mari. Yes, I think James and Sirius as young boys were prepared to make sacrifice for what was right, they weren't perfect by any measure, but the fact that they had it in themselves to make a choice like that willingly is strung through their whole story which makes it hard for me to dismiss even when they are bullying Snape. It was always wrong for them to think it was their place to push Sevvie to let go of his illusions, after all they were still hanging on to many of their own. But, that said, if we are going to explore this theme then we are going to delve into Snape's redemptions and misdeeds a lot. In a way I see him as an intricate extension of Harry in the story, a part of the whole that undergoes it's own transgressions and redemptions, the Pensieve scene is already being slowly revealed as equally a trangression on Snapes behalf as on James and Sirius. It is being revealed that Snape and Lily were comrades of a sort, both members of the Slug Club and both extraordinary students. Snape could not have kept from himself forever that "Mudblood" was just a dirty word while he was so clearly exposed to the contradiction. I noticed in HBP that Snape was even more tolerant of Hermione, for certainly after all has been said and done, he could only fool himself that she is anything but brilliant and talented. He seems eminiently capable of percieving truth, but as a young man perhaps he wasn't so inclined to trust that it was useful. He called Lily a Filthy little Mudblood in the penseive, and how could ever stand by such an undignified outburst. He unleashed a dark and dangerous magic on James, how could he then honestly say to himself that he was innocent. These are the things that Snape cannot justify, he has to face his own self and see in the purest sense the terrifying truth about those choices. They are stains on his soul. As Mari said: "The loving choice can mean sacrificing reputation, friends, trust, or even your life, if necessary." There was/is still time for Sevvie to make the Loving choice here and sacrifice his pride for what is right, first though, he has to face the kind of love that will bear these consequences out on him and allow him to see what he truly is. The kind of Love that Harry will need to bring to Voldemort. It all seems *so* not nice, but it's actually the kindest isn't it, a Love that can purify out the stains on our soul that cause us the greatest anguish. The ones that live in our Worst Memory. Thats the one kind of Love that I think would be able to satisfactorily complete Harry's Story. I doubt tht JKR would reach for something less. And I also hope that she wouldn't. > > > Valky: > > > If any Snape lovers are still reading, this is the reason I have > > for believing that Snape can be redeemed again. For the first time > > ever in the series I did see tiny glimpses of him in HBP *finally* > > facing his own truth and walking the path he laid for himself > > bravely, like a man ready to open himself to this Agape - > > Judgement love. > Mari again: > > Yes, definitely. If Snape was acting according to Dumbledore's > orders in a similar way to Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink the > potion in the cave, this is a clear example of making a terribly > difficult choice for the sake of love. Valky: Yes this would be the ultimate icing on that cake for me. And I think, thinly stretched through the HBP chapter is a *lot* of indications that this is the case. Yet even if it isn't, those indications are such that it is clear to me anyhow, while killing DD might have been a terrible act of evil on Snapes behalf, Snape was all but ready to face his demons right before he did it. To me, either its a tragedy that will drive Snape to his destruction, or it's one more agony that he was willing to face in his redemption. In both cases, I doubt Snape will live out the series, but I will take great pains to point out that there is a mass of evidence that he is *not* /doomed/, in fact he's quite the contrary. I still wonder if anyone else was piqued, like me, to read the passage about Snape appearing to be in as much pain as the *Dog* (Fang) stuck in the building behind them. I thought this was a clear allusion to Sirius, myself, very very cleverly inserted into the most profound moments between Snape and Harry of the whole book. > > Jen: > > The point I made about all the good Dumbledore did for many people > > and creatures is really only half of the equation for > > compassionate love. I think we saw the other half in the cave, > > after Dumbledore drank the potion. > > Mari again: > > We also saw Harry's love for Dumbledore being put to the test; the > easy choice would be to refuse to give Dumbledore the potion. The > loving choice is to do what he knows is necessary to accomplish the > task they came to do. This sort of love can seem harsh. It isn't > separated from compassion though; when you truly love someone, you > usually feel love for them. However, the next step is to do what is > right/necessary/loving even when your feelings rebel against it. > > This is the love that Harry is learning, and one of the reasons I > believe Snape will be important in the last book whatever his role > turns out to be. Harry will face one of his ultimate tests; showing > last judgement love towards Snape, when his feelings about Snape > push him towards hate rather than love. He has had practice though, > in an easier situation; sparing Peter's life in PoA. Valky: I entirely agree. And I agree that Harry's feelings will make it hugely harder to have mercy on Severus Snape. However, in an ironic twist, I think Snape will turn out to be more deserving than Pettigrew ever was. Though Harry won't realise that until he's actually faced this test. He will forgive Snape. I am sure he will, but not before he discovers more of Snapes unpleasant truths and it is almost downright impossible to do so. I can see the story heading for a poignant moment when we kind of know that this huge weight has just been lifted from Sevvies shoulders and for a fleeting moment it seems like he and Harry have an understanding at last, for a split second we'll see Snape so close to admitting that he actually cares about Harry.. then his face will curl into a sneer again and with a humourless laugh Snape will face his final fate... or something like that. HAHA, lets just hope for *ALL* those answers we've been waiting for to be revealed before then.. ;D Valky From ladyljd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 03:21:57 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:21:57 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137363 Cindy wrote: > It appears to me that he was giving Draco information that would > be damaging to OoTP!Snape! I have to wonder why...we have been led > to assume that all through the books DD has been planning it to look > like he has been taken in by Snape, while the reality is that > Voldemort has supposedly been taken in. I really do not see why DD > had to give that info to Draco even if he wanted to keep him from > being a killer. > Does the fact that DD is ready to tell a budding DE that Snape > really works for him significant in regard to the theory that DD > planned on Snape killing him? Any thoughts out there? Ladyljd: I'll take a stab at it. I believe DD's only motivation at this point is to keep Draco from killing him. No other DE's are around so he believes he has time and room to maneuver. If he can keep Draco from killing him, there is no reason for the Vow to kick in immediately at that point. Once the other DE's arrive, followed by Snape, DD's window of opportunity closes for good. If you believe in the DD/Snape pre-planning theory, their hands are tied from this point on. Ladyljd From ongj87 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 04:27:10 2005 From: ongj87 at yahoo.com (ongj87) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:27:10 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137364 oiboyz: Ah, but Sirius half-rose from his chair before that, in response to > some provocation, and of course he bit the dust at the end of Book 5. Actually, this is not correct. If you review the chapter (The Order of the Phoenix, Book 5), Ginny gets up to play with crookshanks BEFORE the argument between Sirius and Molly. - ongj87 From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Aug 12 08:36:10 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:36:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > What canon do we have that Snape is more valuable to the ultimate > victory of good than Dumbledore? I think the argument, from canon, > that Harry is more important in the end than DD is convincingly > made. But for Snape? I have a hard time equating Snape with DD, let alone posting Snape is more important to the upcoming war than DD is. > The whole point is that Harry is the MOST important person in the war against Voldemort. I don't think anyone would state that Snape is more important/powerful than DD...but...who is more important - DD or a double agent working against Voldemort. It is becoming more apparent that DD cannot constantly protect Harry anymore. DD has continually tried to give Harry the tools and the belief that he can beat VOldemort. I think he now believes that Harry is ready, which is why he is prepared to sacrifice himself. Snape's actions will gain VOldemort's trust, and therefore Snape will know of Voldemort's plans. At present this will be more valuable to Harry than DD's protection. As for Snape, I believe he is willing to follow DD's orders. You can imagine how much he must dislike the fact that his actions (if successful) will glorify the hated Harry Potter. But IMO Snape knows VOldemort must be defeated! Of the two options we are discussing, you either have Fool Dumbledore or Brave/Cunning Dumbledore. JKR speaks of DD with such reverence that, IMO, there is no way it could be the former. Brothergib From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Fri Aug 12 08:40:28 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:40:28 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137366 Julia wrote: > > IMO neither Nercissa nor her sister told Voldemort about > > the Vow so imagine his surprise when he finds out that out > > of blue Snape (who wasn't informed about the Mission or > > when Draco will attempt to fulfill it) turns out at the > > crime scene AKs Dumbledore grabs Draco and runs away... > > > I wonder if Snape wouldn't have a hard time explaining how > > did he knew about the Mission (I'm absolutely sure that he > > lied to Narcissa and he didn't know about Draco mission to > > kill DD) .... > Matt responded: > Not sure what Voldemort will think, though we know Draco thinks Snape > will succeed in "stealing his glory" by taking over his mission. > > Just wanted to respond to the point quoted above: While Snape may or > may not have known what the mission was at Spinner's End, the Death > Eaters on the tower seem to assume that he knows about it by that > point. So presumably either Snape himself has reported back about it, > or someone else has reported back about Snape trying to "help out" > Malfoy. It's unlikely, therefore, that Voldemort will be surprised to > hear that Snape was aware of the mission. Julia again: Yes, Draco thinks that Snape wants glory - but we know it's not true, Snape not only doesn't want glory but he doesn't want anybody to find out he is helping... The Vow is some kind of a treachery to Voldemort and was taken behind his back so I don't think Snape would be eager to tell his fellow DEs about it! (They'll probably go straight to Voldemort cause nobody likes SS anyway - they 'whisper behind his back' as he himslef told Bellatrix) I don't think that he reported back to Voldemort about the Vow for the same reasons I stated above. This was a treachery and Voldemort wouldn't like it. And if Snape told him this he would make Narcissa's situation even worse... When Snape turnes out on the tower one of the DE says 'We've got a problem Sanpe; the boy doesn't seem able...' IMO the present DEs didn't know if Snape knew about the Mission. They probably assumed it when he stood in the door. maybe they thought that Voldemort just didn't tell them that but as Snape works in Hogwarts they assumed he must have been filled in. There wasn't time for them to ask Snape - Dumbledore can regain his powers at any moment, OotP can come in any second too. IMO they just thought he knew. Voldemort didn't share his thoughts and whole plans with DE so they're used to work together without knowing about each others orders... Julia From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Aug 12 08:54:18 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:54:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > Whose wishes? We have no hard evidence--yet--that Dumbldore has a > death plan with Snape. Well Julie, I am disappointed that you did not counter my arguments from canon for Good Snape in post 137271!! Never give up the fight!!!!!! :-) As for the current post, we have canon for a plan between Snape & DD. In GOF, DD says to Snape - 'You know what I must ask you to do' So there is the first canon evidence of a plan between Snape & DD In HBP, Snape tells DD that he no longer wants to do it! IMO, if you apply logic to this statement, it suggests that whatever DD wants Snape to do, it has not happened as yet. Therefore DD & Snape's plan is NOT simply to rejoin Voldemort and act as spy as this has already happened. Therefore the plan takes place after these events. Which brings us to the 'Tower'. Now, let us consider DD & Voldemort. Two incredibly powerful, intelligent wizards. Why would either of them completely trust Snape? Voldemort would not (even though he as accepted him as a DE). How could Snape prove his worth - by killing DD. DD is no less intelligent that VOldemort, so must have a cast-iron reason for trusting Snape. The clues are all there - unless you think this is all one big double bluff!! Finally, I found it interesting that Snape & Wormtail were together in HBP. Could it be (one of) Snape's jobs to remind Wormtail of his debt!! Brothergib From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Aug 12 09:05:46 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:05:46 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > We have three choices for who this person is: > > 1. Filch (Who everyone thinks is a Squib.) > 2. Mrs. Figg (Am I remembering her name wrong? She is also considered > a Squib.) > 3. Petunia (Who everyone thinks is a Muggle.) A whole load of canon states that Voldemort loves Hogwarts but never attempted to take over because of DD. It seems logical that in Book 7, Voldemort will finally attempt to take over at Hogwarts. Therefore it is most likely that Filch, in attempting to protect the school, will finally use some magic. We also have previous canon for him attempting to learn magic! As for Petunia, canon suggests that she knows more about the wizarding world than she is letting on. We also have canon that Petunia is a nosy neighbour. Therefore, I'm sure she would have been interested in Lily's 'world'. IMO, Petunia has a piece of information that is going to help Harry. If i was going to guess (and I see no problem with guessing!), I can see Vernon making a disparaging remark about DD entering his house again and Harry blurting out that he had been killed by Snape. At this point Petunia will link Snape & Lily in some way! Brothergib From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Fri Aug 12 09:13:14 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:13:14 -0000 Subject: What happened with Petunia's powers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137369 While rereading HBP I came across a very interesting quote: (HBP, UK adult edition, pages 245-246) "'But she [Merope] could do magic!' said Harry imaptiently. 'She could have got food and everything for herself by magic, couldn't she?' 'Ah,' said Dumbledore, 'perhaps she could. But it is my belief - I am guessing again, but I am sure I am right - that when her husband abandoned her, Merope stopped using magic. I do not think that she wanted to be a witch any longer. Of course, it is also possible that her unrequied love and the attendant despair sapped her of her powers; that can happen. In any case, as you are about to see, Merope refused to raise her wand even to save her own life.'" If that could have happened to Merope - the pureblood witch, doesn't it seem possible that the same thing might have happen to Petunia, the Muggleborn? I mean, if she is not a squib (as JKR said) but there is something more to her - can it be possible that some great emotional shock 'sapped her of her powers' too? Or perheps Petunia always denied her powers and at some point she wasn't able to perform them any more... IMO Petunia's attitude towards magic is quite suspicious, she is one of the very few Muggles that are aware of wizarding world but still refuse to be a part of it (Vernon and Dudley aren't in the same situation - as we can see in OotP, Petunia is REALLY aware of what's going on out there, they don't) Dumbledore says that things like that can happen. I think he knows about Petunia and her choice not to be a witch. Of course if it was a choice. Maybe she suffered from 'unrequited love' like Merope which weakened her powers so much she didn't have any control over it anymore? What's interesting IMO, is the fact that in the 7th book Harry becomes 17 and as many of you stated before there might be an attack on Privet Drive when Harry attempts to live the house. Will Petunia in a face of great danger perform any magic that will save her family? Maybe if the great shock and despair can sapped somebody of their powers, the opposite can happen if someone face a life threatending situation? Perhaps there is some of Lily's courage in Petunia? An ability to perform acient magic? What do you think? Julia From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Fri Aug 12 09:24:40 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:24:40 -0000 Subject: Harry is right WAS:Draco's absence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137370 Greg: > So now that we've read HBP in its entirety and know Draco actually did > pay him [Harper] off, how did Harry know? Was it just a guess? Was it a > particulary clever insight on Harry's part? Or, was it some sort of > accidental Legimency? > Well, i think it was just a right guess. It's not hard to think of it - Malfoys do their businnes by bribing other people, it's common knowledge that they have a lot of many and they use them in that particular way. I think Harry just made an accurate guess. What's more interesting IMO is the fact that throughout the whole HBP Harry is right in his suspicions about Draco and Snape. He guesses right about Draco's involvment with DEs, his Mission, him being in Room of Requirement, the attack on Hogwarts etc. He's right. Which is unexpected because before that Harry's suspicions were always wrong. I begin to wonder is it only because JKR needed it for a plot or there is something more to it... I don't know how you guys but I was shocked when it turned out Harry was right!!! Julia From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 12 09:33:00 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:33:00 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137371 > davenclaw > Possibly the easiest way to understand why the "single timeline > theory" doesn't work is this: when TT!Harry "enters" the timeline > at 6pm, he doesn't appear from nowhere. He comes from the future. > He has a memory of what happened 6pm - 9pm or whatever the time > frame is. In other words, that time period has already happened > once. Would the "single timeline" theorists actually posit that > 10pm has already happened at 6pm? But if not, how can TT!Harry > have a memory of a time period that hasn't happened yet? > > Imagine drawing the famous time "line" with a loop from 9pm to > 6pm. As you draw this line, you first have to draw 6pm - 9pm before > you can draw the loop back to 6pm. This is how the time progresses > as well. Note that it isn't a straight line coming from nowhere > entering the timeline at 6pm. It's a loop from a time that has > already been reached. 6pm - 9pm takes place before time traveling > occurs. JLV now (groans ensue...): I am sure this point isn't canon related, it is that you are pointing out what you regard to be an inconsistency in the single-timeline theory. I think that the inconsistency you see is not a logical one, rather it is inconsistent with a notion you have of causation and determinism, neither of which you have supported with canon. I am sorry you can't make sense of the idea that something at 10pm can affect something at 6pm, but as others can understand this concept I can only reassure you that it does make sense. We are not mad. Promise ;-) Your point seems to be that a `future' event may affect a `past' event on the single-timeline theory. Gasp! You say this is impossible, and I say that this is the whole point of time-travel! Myself and other posters have pointed out that the dual-timeline theory you propose is *logically* inconsistent, which I regard to be the worst sort of inconsistency (as anything follows from a contradiction). So we prefer the single-timeline theory. But not just from this logical perspective ? it is also from a canon one. Note that there is *no* canon to say that the past happened one way and then it was `changed' in PoA (you said this yourself). You have also posted that the reason for this must be that JKR didn't consider the original events and missed them out: > Davenclaw: > The only hold with this [dual timeline] theory is that JKR probably > didn't consider and certainly never wrote what events took place > before time traveling changed things. JLV: I say that, from the perspective of reasoning alone, I don't even think that the word `change' really can apply to the past - how can the past *have been* one way *in the past* but *now be* something different? I don't think that even makes sense. In what past was the past different exactly? Actually, as I can hear you shouting, the answer to this is in the books that the previous pages of the book could count as `past' in Harry's world. That is, in fact, how dual-timelines can appear in science fiction at all. If you remove the book context, the timelines fall apart *but* (I can hear you shouting) that doesn't mean that JKR couldn't write her book this way! Of course it doesn't ? after all there are loads of books that do. All I am saying is that she *didn't* write it this way. In your own way, you actually said so too. All I can say is that I really do think that JKR is writing from the single-timeline perspective. I support this by again saying that there is *only one* timeline given in the books. Also, allowing the past to be changed would allow JKR to re-write pages of the books and `change' what happened on them. I don't believe she will ever do this ? for canon reasons. If she could do this, she could have Hermione go to her missed charms lesson, she could save Sirius and Dumbledore and kill Snape as a schoolboy. It is explicitly stated that magic cannot bring people back to life. The dual-timeline theory allows this to happen! I also say that JKR (like most people in the world) has not studied time travel extensively so she throws in a few remarks that don't quite fit the action. You said so too. We can understand that this is very easy to do ? time-travel is very difficult to understand as I think this debate demonstrates. But when JKR slipped up with Flint we just went `JKR made a mistake ? she's only human', but with the time travel, we get huge debates! Perhaps I should get some perspective here... Oops! I suppose this is because this stuff is really meaty and interesting... ANd Davenclaw, I know full well that what I've said isn't going to change your mind on this matter, but please understand that I am not going to change mine until JKR rewrites the past - and this is the very thing that you have said JKR has omitted to do! I hope you can forgive me for not changing my mind. Yet. Of course, this is all Just My Opinion. JLV xx (Who wishes she could roll completely off topic again and talk about the mysteries of the universe... sigh) From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 10:27:15 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:27:15 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137373 Antosha-- But JKR has flat-out said she's a Muggle. And--so she told us--she's never knowingly lied when asked a question. There's no way that Petunia could turn out to be a witch without that quote becoming a willful misstatement of fact. vmonte: She has not lied. A squib is incapable of magic--that is a very specific label. Petunia is, for the moment, a muggle. If she were to all of a sudden show signs of being a witch her status would change. "Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet." Why do you think JKR laughs here? Petunia is not a squib, but it is a good guess? A squib is someone that is born from a wizarding family but cannot do magic. So, a person that show signs of magic late in life would had to have been previously labeled a muggle, no? There is more to Petunia than meets the eye, although she is not a squib, which are incapable of magic. Whatever JKR is thinking here she finds it most amusing. I would too if Petunia was going to turn out to be a witch. Petunia has raised Dudley to fear and loathe wizards. And we already know what vernon feels about them. What do you think will happen if Vernon and Dudley were to suddenly realize that she was a witch? Vivian From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 12 10:57:35 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:57:35 -0400 Subject: DoubleAgent!Lupin Message-ID: <005c01c59f2c$a5dd7a60$12c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137374 Pippin: But Harry makes it quite clear that he's not interested in talking to Scrimgeour while Stan Shunpike is in jail. If R.S. had a prominent DE capture to brag about, why care about Shunpike? Fenrir is notorious, he's threatened countless people, according to Lupin. And the stupefied Death Eater, who was nailed by Harry as he left the tower, is not Fenrir, who was petrified at the base of it CathyD: The DE at the top of the tower (brutal faced) was Petrified by Harry, not Stupified. Not sure whether Scrimgeour or JKR made the mistake there. At this point, as I said, Scrimgeour isn't interested in getting Harry onside. He knows he's not going to budge. All he wanted was info on where DD went and what he and Harry did. Greyback doesn't enter into the equasion. Telling Harry that they had taken Greyback into custody wasn't going to influence Harry to tell him about Dumbledore. (At least Scrimgeour was smart enough to realize that...I'm not certain Fudge would have been.) Pippin: Wouldn't somone in the hospital wing have said, Hey, at least we got Fenrir? CathyD: I think they had more important things on their minds, questions about Bill's health, Dumbledore's death, how it all happened. They were quite concerned with gettng the injured to the hospital wing. Mind you, I think McGonagall or, even more so, Tonks, might have noticed if Lupin released Greyback from the curse, even if he used a non-verbal. As well as not saying that "at least we got Fenrir" no one said, either "but then Fenrir was back up and running around again after he was petrified." This reminds me a great deal of the battle in the DoM. There are 10 DEs in the Death Chamber. Bella left. Nine were captured by Dumbledore (we presume all nine). What about Nott and Baby-head? Where are they? DD only says: "If you proceed downstairs.....you will find several *escaped* Death Eaters contained in the Death Chamber, bound by an Anti-Disapparation jinx and awaiting your decision as to what to do with them." Lucius Malfoy wasn't an *escaped* DE yet we know he's in Azkaban. Avery and Macnair had not excaped Azkaban either (they were in the graveyard at the end of GOF) Did Nott and Baby-Head Disapparate? Who knows? Nobody - yet - well, except JKR, *knows* what happened to Fenrir. Until she says otherwise, IMO, Greyback is in MoM custody. Pippin: Ah, but what if Peter wasn't a willing spy at all, but only the reluctant betrayer of the secret? Dumbledore doesn't seem to be very upset about Peter's escape; he says Harry will be glad of it one day. I think Dumbledore knew all along that Peter wasn't the spy. It makes even less sense now that a non-Occlumens could get away with spying on Dumbledore for a year. CathyD: Sorry, *what ifs* don't do it for me. And you're forgetting the prophecy. "His *servant* has been chained these twelve years." (POA 238 Can Ed) Not his one-time information passer...his *servant.* Also: "Harry saw something upon the skin there, something like a vivid red tattoo -- a skull, with a snake protruding from its mouth -- the same image that had appeared in the sky at the Quidditch World Cup: the Dark Mark. Voldemort examined it carefully, ignoring Wormtail's uncontrollable weeping." (GF 560 Can Ed) Can't imagine LV would brand somebody for one piece of information. (Just like I don't think Draco has the tattoo, yet, either) Especially when, at the time Pettigrew gave the information, only a week before the attack, there was no *proof* the information would pan out until LV went to the Potter residence and got in. Nope, one time information passer doesn't work here, IMO. More to the point though, LV calls Pettigrew a servant "And then, not even a year ago, when I had almost abandoned hope, it happened at last ... a *servant* returned to me: Wormtail here, who had faked his own death to escape justice, was driven out of hiding by those he had once counted as friends, and decided to return to his *master*." (GOF 568) As Sirius said: "You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years, you've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter ... they all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them...I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the *double crosser* double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your information ...and Voldemort met his downfall there. And not all Voldemort's supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they? .... If they ever got wind that you were still alive, Peter -- " (POA 270) Pettigrew doesn't, ever, IMO, deny that he had been Voldemort's spy. Not just the bearer of the SK info. Sirius accuses him of "passing information to him [LV] for a year before Lily and James died! You were his spy!" Peter didn't deny it, but said "What was there to be gained by refusing him?....You don't understand, he would have killed me." Why would Peter have thought LV would kill him if he hadn't had contact with him already? No reason to..well, no more reason to than any other OP member had. LV knew Pettigrew was a friend of the Potters, and LV was after the Potters, so he went after Pettigrew. He brought Pettigrew into his *employ* to get the info he needed. LV knew he wasn't going to get Sirius on his side. LV didn't want Lupin, a werewolf. (Don't throw Greyback at me here. Greyback, IMO, is *not* a DE. He is not working *for* LV. He is working for himself. He knows if LV gets full power he will have freedoms he doesn't now have. Anything he does for LV he's really doing for himself. His DE robes are too tight because they are not his but someone else's.) Dumbledore doesn't get upset about much, though, does he, so it isn't much of a defence that he wasn't upset about Pettigrew escaping. . Besides, he knows what good can come of Harry allowing Peter to live. He doesn't seem all that concerned, either, that a wizard, who was supposed to be dead for 12 years, was alive, and sleeping in his school for a good number of those years. He doesn't seem too concerned about Sirius' confession that they were illegal animagi. Doesn't seem concerned at all that Lupin knew about that situation and never bothered to tell him that Sirius was an animagi. Doesn't seem concerned, either, that he put Harry into a position to aid an escaped priosoner. He doesn't even question Harry about what he did to Draco Malfoy with the Sectumsempra spell On and on. What makes you say that Peter is a non-Occlumens? Where were we told that? Dumbledore was still Headmaster, as well as the ring-leader of the OotP. He wasn't in Peter's presence every moment. May hardly have spent time with him at all. All the order members in OotP had jobs to do and went about doing them. I'm sure it was the same in the first war. Remember, we only saw Emmeline Vance, Elphias Doge, Dedalus Diggle, Sturgis Podmore, Kingsley Shacklebolt and Hestia Jones on the one occasion where they rescued Harry from the Dursley's. The rest of the time, they were going about their business for the Order. They weren't popping in to HQ every day, or every few days. Only Kingsley Shacklebolt and Moody made it to the dinner on the last night before the kids went back to Hogwarts. Tonks was there more than the rest but for, now what we know were obvious reasons: Lupin lived there. Dumbledore already suspected Sirius, wrongly. Didn't suspect Peter Pettigrew, wrongly. Half the Wizarding World now thinks he was wrong to trust Snape. He can't possibly be wrong about everyone he is in contact with? Capable of mistakes in judgement yes, but he's not a fool. Lupin doesn't *appear* to be an Occlumens either, how did he keep his spying secrets from Dumbledore? He didn't have to, he wasn't in LV's employ. CathyD Sorry, Pippin, I wasn't ignoring you. I really wanted to reply to this sooner but owing to circumstances beyond my control - couldn't focus my eyes for nearly two days - I had to wait. It was easy enough to make your e-mail big enough to read, but my wand was backfiring and I couldn't get my books to enlarge! ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 11:49:47 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050812114947.20133.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137375 > Potioncat: > I haven't seen any canon to show Filch and Snape are friendly > towards > each other. Yes, Filch helped Snape bandage his leg. Yes, Filch > reports to Snape. But it seems more of a working relationship in > which Snape is fairly high in Administration and Filch is very low > in Labor. True. And in PS/SS, when Harry is in the library under the invisibility cloak, he hears Filch tell Snape that someone is in the Restricted Section. Filch addresses Snape formally and calls him "Professor". They have no idea anyone is around and surely this would be a time for them to address each other in a more familiar fashion. I don't think it adds anything to the book for Filch to turn out to be Tobias Snape. What would be the point? As a revelation it would just be tossed out with no plot attached to it. I think it's fan-overkill. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 12:05:14 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:05:14 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Tower Battle (WAS DoubleAgent!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > >> It's difficult to tell how many DE's there were. After Fenrir is > PT'd, and Amycus is hit with impedimenta, Harry sees McGonagall, > Ron and Lupin each fighting a separate Death Eater, and Tonks > fighting the big blond one beyond them. The one McGonagall is > fighting is identified as Alecto, so there are at least two more, > besides Fenrir unaccounted for, since Harry only sees Snape, > Draco, Amycus, Alecto and the big blond one running for the gates. > > Pippin Miz Storge: There were two bodies in the area of the battle downstairs. One of them was identified as Gibbon (taken out accidentally by the 'Huge Blonde DE?), but we're left to ponder the other one. There seem to be enough 'unnamed' Death Eaters around. Alecto and Amycus escaped, as did the 'Huge Blonde', Snape and young Malfoy. I wonder if its difficult for an investigator to determine what kind of spell someone is recovering from when the results are similar - Petrificus Totalus as opposed to Stupify, for instance? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 12:15:44 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:15:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137377 Brotherjib: > In HBP, Snape tells DD that he no longer wants to do it! > IMO, if you apply logic to this statement, it suggests that whatever > DD wants Snape to do, it has not happened as yet. Therefore DD & > Snape's plan is NOT simply to rejoin Voldemort and act as spy as this > has already happened. Alla: I disagree. If I tell someone that I no longer want to do something it could also be interpreted as if I am ALREADY doing something, but no LONGER want to do it, no? So, what Snape had been already doing? Hm, since I am a fan of Snape choosing evil path on the Tower, I can suggest several things which he had been already doing, which all had been suggested of course. Snape may not have wanted to teach DADA anymore. Why? Because he somehow learned that jinx on the position is real and not just student's gossip. So, Snape has no desire to be jinxed at the end of the year. Maybe Voldie told him that he indeed placed the jinx ont he position and Snape should leave ASAP. My favorite one is definitely the one that LL suggested - that Snape does not want to watch over Harry Potter anymore. It fits perfectly with Snape who started resenting Dumbledore more and more for forcing this asignment on him. Remember in OOP? " I can assure you that I did not ask for the job" ( paraphrasing) What if Snape resentment was growing stronger there, but he did not start openly disobeying DD yet? What if he came up with the way to sabotage the lelssons without looking bad in front of DD? Hmm, since even if Snape turns out to be good, I absolutely cannot see DD asking to kill him in the forest, I could see Snape telling DD that he is taking for granted his healing abilities ( so DD should stop going after horcruxes) - Potioncat's idea. Just my speculative opinion, Alla. From katarina.anna at gmx.net Fri Aug 12 11:40:17 2005 From: katarina.anna at gmx.net (anna_ktrn) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:40:17 -0000 Subject: Reflections on Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137378 "ushit_k" wrote: > So far in the series we have seen Voldemort accumulating many magical > handicaps. These are > 1. To regenerate He used Harry's blood, (the gleam in the eye of > Dumbledore), thus causing some sort of weakness. What exactly this > weakness is will perhaps be revealed in book 7. > 2. He has a servant who owe's a life debt to Harry. At some critical > moment in the final battle I think that this will be critical. > 3. A soul that is brutally battered. > 4. Afraid of the unknown. A control freak? > 5. A cursed half life for slaying and drinking the blood of the > unicorn. Anna adds: 6. A bunch of Death Eaters who do not trust each other, who do not trust him, who do not understand the power of working as a team (see the battle in the MoM in OotP), who do not share a common goal because each one of them has their very own agenda, who are sadistic, mentally unstable or simply pathetic, the majority of whom will be perfectly useless in a crunch. 7. A wand that can not be used to kill his greatest enemy. 8. Enemies who are not afraid to die. 9. A part of his soul stored in a snake that can act and think independently. (Which makes me wonder who the hell told Dumbledore that Voldemort used Nagini to kill Frank Bryce. Wormtail was the only witness.) "ushit_k" wrote: > In addition to this he has the following non magical weakness: > 1. Inability to trust anyone and a propensity to operate alone and in > secrecy. > 2. A tendency to make complicated plans. For example to get the > prophecy he could have taken polyjuice potion (transforming himself > into Lucius Malfoy) got in the chamber of records, taken the prophecy. > He could then have taken polyjuice potion again and gone on his merry > way. Anna adds: 3. Lack of empathy. Which is his greatest flaw. Every stems from this. 4. The inability to understand the power of love and friendship. 5. An insane fear of death. 6. A supreme arrogance that leads him to underestimate others. 7. The inability to pick leaders instead of bullies and sadists. 8. Lack of leadership qualities. He wants servants, not soldiers. He rules through fear, not through example. And that is one of the most significant differences between Voldemort and Dumbledore/Harry. > I think that a combination of the above will be instrumental in > defeating him. Anna says: I think you are right. In the end, neither his magical skills nor his intellectual brilliance will be enough to counterbalance Voldemort's weaknesses. Anna. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 12:28:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:28:54 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137379 I vmonte wrote: Petunia has raised Dudley to fear and loathe wizards. And we already know what Vernon feels about them. What do you think will happen if Vernon and Dudley were to suddenly realize that she was a witch? vmonte again: You know it's possible that this event already happened and that it is what is buried deep in Dudley's mind as: Dudley's Worst Memory. I wonder what happens to all the people that decide not to go to Hogwarts and become wizards? Do their powers get zapped away by the Ministry? Or do they need to take some kind of medication to keep it under control? I wonder if this is what Dumbledore held over Petunia to keep Harry in their house? Vivian From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 12:53:35 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Snape's worst memory? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050812125335.80084.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137380 --- vmonte wrote: > Why would JKR mention that Harry noticed that Lupin looked strange > and that he then wondered if the full moon was approaching if it > wasn't important? Why add this info at all? I think it's because the Prank happened a few days after the Pensieve Incident, at the end of the school year; that after being hung upside down and humiliated, Snape was determined that this time he was going to get those $#@$% so-and-so's expelled or die trying. And so he started watching Lupin like a hawk, got the tree-knot secret from Sirius (under what circumstances we still don't know although JKR says Sirius did tell him) and went into the tunnel. This is Red Hen's thesis and I quite agree. You can find it here: http://www.redhen-publications.com/WerewolfCaper.html Red Hen's theory on the timeline is that it would be easier to cover up the whole thing if school was on the verge of ending for the year anyway and that James Potter would have the summer to think over what nearly happened and begin his maturing process that led to Lily finally going out with him. It is an excellent theory, and I recommend it. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 12 12:57:31 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:57:31 -0000 Subject: Snape and Voldemort WAS:Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137381 Julia wrote: > Yes, Draco thinks that Snape wants glory - but we know it's not > true, Snape not only doesn't want glory but he doesn't want anybody > to find out he is helping... My take on Snape is that he actually do want glory, just not the kind of glory that Voldemort can offer. For all we know, at least some DEs want to become Voldemorts most loyal servant (Crouch Jr., Bellatrix...) and to "be honoured above all others" (HBP p. 38). Somehow Snape doesn't strike me as a person who likes to think of himself as somebody's servant. The glory I think he wants, is official recogizion and respect. In PoA he seems pleased when Fudge offers: "Order of Merlin, Second Class, I'd say. First Class, if I can wangle it!" (p. 283) To be recognized for bravery seems to be something he specially would appreciate, considering his reaction when called a coward. And who thinks of Voldemort's men as brave? Cruel and daring? Yes! But not brave. Marika From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Aug 12 13:10:06 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:10:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137382 > Alla: > > I disagree. If I tell someone that I no longer want to do something > it could also be interpreted as if I am ALREADY doing something, but no LONGER want to do it, no? > > So, what Snape had been already doing? Hm, since I am a fan of Snape choosing evil path on the Tower, I can suggest several things which he had been already doing, which all had been suggested of course. > Fantastic, another Snape is Evil poster to try and convert!! OK, I have posted some of this before, but would love some comment on it from the Snape is Evil camp!! Snape's behaviour often suggests that he is on the side of good! In GOF his reaction to what DD asks him to do to counter Voldemort seems genuine. In OOTP it is clear that Snape ensures that the Order rush to Harry's aid in the MOM. If he was evil, then why wasn't he assisting Voldemort? In HBP he flinches as he makes the unbreakable vow. In HBP he doesn't kill anyone except DD, despite the ease with which he could have. In HBP DD is begging Snape. DD would not beg for his life, would he? He certainly didn't seem bothered by Greyback's taunts! In HBP he continues to attempt to tutor Harry as he escapes And, IMO, most damning of all, is his reaction to Harry's comment of Coward. Again IMO, it doesn't make sense that if Snape had finally killed DD and freed himself of Hogwarts, he would care what Harry said to him. He would be elated and not react this way. What makes more sense, IMO, is if Snape has just been forced to kill DD(on DD's orders) to ultimately help Harry (someone he doesn't think is up to the job) and is then called a coward, he might not be able to control his temper!! And another question wrt DD. Why did he freeze Harry at the Tower? It isn't to protect him since Draco (a) couldn't see him and (b) isn't a killer. It was for Harry to bear witness to Snape's apparent betrayal - in case Voldemort accesses Harry's thoughts again! Brothergib From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Fri Aug 12 13:11:41 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:11:41 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137383 > vmonte wrote: > Petunia has raised Dudley to fear and loathe wizards. And we already > know what Vernon feels about them. What do you think will happen if > Vernon and Dudley were to suddenly realize that she was a witch? > > vmonte again: > You know it's possible that this event already happened and that it is > what is buried deep in Dudley's mind as: Dudley's Worst Memory. > > I wonder what happens to all the people that decide not to go to > Hogwarts and become wizards? Do their powers get zapped away by the > Ministry? Or do they need to take some kind of medication to keep it > under control? > > I wonder if this is what Dumbledore held over Petunia to keep Harry in > their house? > Julia: I've posted my theory about what happened to Petunia's magical powers. I think it can be an answer to your questions. here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137369 I think that Petunia was not magical enough to attend Hogwarts, but at the same time she really didn't want to go there. She resented magic and IMO it was the reason she was 'sapped' of her minimal but still existing abilities. The whole theory is in a post number 137369 (link above) Just my opinion, but i'd be glad to know what others think of it. Julia From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 13:18:53 2005 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:18:53 -0000 Subject: The Screaming Man WAS Re: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137384 Ceridwen wrote: > > We don't know that Snape's father was abusive at all. We do know > that the screamfest made an impact on the young Snape. (heck, we > don't even know for sure that's his father, or even his mother, > but it seems probable). Yes. Too probable. ;-) How about: Screaming man is not Snape's father. It's his *grandfather*, screaming at his mother. Screaming at her for bringing this little half-blood into the family, to the shame of all pure-blooded Prince's everywhere. Remember Sirius's mother's portrait, talking about half-bloods as 'half-breeds'? And yet Harry assumes that 'half-blood Prince' is a grand sounding title. I don't think it is; not in the Prince family, and not in Slytherin House. Suppose 'half-blood Prince' was an insult that Snape was being defiant about? The brilliant notes in this book belong to - the half-blood Prince. That'll show everyone who calls me that! Pip!Squeak From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 12 13:37:10 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:37:10 -0000 Subject: Significant Sevens In-Reply-To: <20050812030620.74248.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137385 > Trish > I have been thinking a lot about seven. Seven books. Seven horcruxes. > Ginny being the seventh daughter of the seventh daughter Can we list them? > Juli Juli: SEVEN is a powerful number in Potterverse, if you check out Jo's website, this month's Wizard of the Month is the witch that discovered the magical properties of the number 7. > Philosopher's Stone > > He paid seven gold Galleons for his wand, > > positions of the seven players, (Ron talking about Quidditch) > > portrait of the Fat Lady on the seventh floor. (Gryffindor's common room) > > a table with seven differently shaped bottles (The 7 potions to get to the PS) > > Chamber of Secrets > > seven of Lockhart's books in front of him, > > Prisioner of Azkaban > > "There are seven in all. ..." -- said Fred ..(The 7 secret passages to Hogsmeade) > > there have been only seven Animagi this century, (Hermione in the Skrieking Shack) > > Goblet of Fire > > ... the large trunk under the window. It had seven keyholes in a row. (Moody's trunk, in the 7th was the real Moody) > > "Socks are Dobby's favorite, ...I has seven now, sir. .(Dobby at Christmas) > > "... they're full grown, 'round about seven. (Hagrid in COMC explaining Unicorns) > > ...7 sure is magic... > -aussie- - Wizards come of age at SEVENteen, not eighteen as in the rest of UK - Room of Requirements is on the SEVENth floor - Ron and Harry each got 7 OWLs ... more to come ... From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 13:38:54 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:38:54 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137386 Mari: > This is something I've been turning over in my mind a lot in > relation to the Harry Potter series. JKR certainly seems to be > leading us towards a concept of love that is not just a feeling, it > is a *choice*. Love can mean choosing to do something that totally > goes against your inclinations, but you do it anyway because it is > the right or necessary thing to do. >Valky replying to Mari's post: >If we are looking for Love and Choice and the finality of death rolled >into some tangible climax to the series I reckon that the Agape (the >God Love) as viewed from this last Judgement standpoint has got to be >right on the money. >And as I said to you earlier, and >can't pass the opportunity to say again, it doesn't seem like love, >it's not an emotion or a feeling, it's actually so pure it's brutal, Saraquel: Who is also really enjoying this thread and the amazing quality of the posts on the topic. I want to see if I can get my head around a few concepts that I have been toying with, that are to do with choice, the power of this type of love, how the characters in the book will interact with it, whether it is possible to actually experience it as your own ? perhaps I mean generate it, or whether it flows through your choices, when they are in harmony with it. As you can see that's a lot of things to link together, but I usually find that by writing it out, unexpected connections are made, and hopefully things come together ? so please bear with me. Mari, thanks for pointing out about the importance of choice, this whole aspect is really interesting. It is your choices that ultimately decide to what purpose you put the innate power within you. To good or evil ? or for most us the endless shades of grey in between. In the Horcrux chapter DD spends a long time getting Harry to understand that he is making a choice to face Voldemort, and that Harry's power lies in making that choice. If Harry continues to think that he must face Voldemort because the prophecy tells him that is his fate, then he becomes, IMO and I think DDs opinion (if I'm reading it right), Voldemort's victim. Whether he defeats Voldemort or not, he is the victim of Voldemort's choice to pursue the prophecy. Some of his power would not be directed outwards on the task in hand, but inwards. His power would not be illuminating his will to do the task, but feeding his resentment of why me? So his attention would not be in the present, but in the past, on the history of the prophecy and everything connected with it. Only by connecting with his choices of the present can he access the power that he has within himself. As a character, Snape is tied to his past resentments. I'm in full flow here so please forgive me Valky, for not quoting you directly, but I know I'm standing on your shoulders here and that this has been a theme of yours and I think others in this thread. His whole raison d'etre is connected to the "injustices" he sees have been visited on him by James, Sirius, and probably a whole host of other people and events that we speculate on. His present actions are totally governed by his past, and continue to colour everything he does. He renders himself choiceless because of this, and is trapped in a web of his own making. Those around him, Dumbledore and Voldemort make choices which profoundly impact upon him and I think we could interpret some of his actions as resentment about this. So although Snape has a lot of magical power and ability, it never seems to get him out of the mess, only further into it because the reasoning behind his choices is always connected to past and not present realities. It seems to me that JKR implies that Voldemort's choices are based on his fears particularly of death and the unknown. In PS Uk ed p211 Quirrel tells Harry how Voldemort taught him that "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it." I interpret that to mean that Voldemort sees power as control, controlling others through fear. So Voldemort does not recognise the connection between choice and power. He hands Harry power over him because he thinks he can intimidate Harry to the point that Harry *believes* he has no choice. He has power over Draco, because, ultimately when DD offers Draco a way out, Draco is too afraid of Voldemort to make the choice to accept DD's offer. So to Voldemort, it matters not whether you are trying to be good or evil, both are meaningless when you are under his control. In the graveyard scene in GoF, it was Harry's *choice* to come out fighting and not be intimidated that caused the Priori Incantatem effect which terrified Voldemort. Voldemort was terrified because he had lost control of the situation and has no other resources in his arsenal, he has nothing else to choose. So how does this reflect on the plot, and how Love Saves the Day? Well, lets get back to Harry, and what might prevent him from making appropriate choices. Because ultimately, whatever those things are, if Harry is going to come out victorious in the end (and hey, this is an all action fictional story after all) he is going to have to resolve those things. If we assume that JKR has embodied weaknesses in our Hero's antagonists, then he should be able to learn from them. In my mind, Harry has already conquered fear of death, he has always been willing to face death right from PS, but by the end of HBP, we see him facing Snape without fear of death: p564 "Kill me then," panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt." So that seems to be that one conquered. Now for being bound to the past. IMO Harry has not conquered this one at all yet. It is his desire for vengeance over the death of his parents and the death of Sirius, that leads him into the, for me, dangerous territory of unforgivable curses. There is no way, IMO, that Harry can beat Voldemort or Snape in this arena. Both Voldemort and Snape know it too. As long as Harry is thinking this way, it's curtains for him. He is going to have to come to terms with the death of his parents and both Snape and Voldemort's role in it. I think maybe, revisiting GH and going into his memory of what happened (because I do think that Harry will get that memory into the pensieve and go into it) will be the factor that allows him to come to terms with this. I think, he will realise when he has seen it, that his parents *chose* to die. He has already realised that his parents did choose to die, HBP p479 "It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew ? and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents ? that there was all the difference in the world." But he has not yet, IMO quite thought through the implications of this. In PoA, he would not allow Sirius and Lupin to kill Pettigrew because: P275 "I'm not doing this for you (Pettigrew), I'm doing it because I don't reckon my dad would've wanted his best friends to become killers ? just for you." It is just a small step now to realise that his parents would not want Harry to perform unforgiveable curses and perhaps even an AK, just to get revenge. I believe Harry will see his mother, willingly take a choice to end her life, with dignity and honour, even though she could have walked free. Death was not a punishment for Lily, it was a choice she willingly embraced. Harry killing Snape on the grounds of revenge, would be meaningless in this situation. In some ways, it could be seen as dishonouring her choice. It would serve no purpose for Lily, James Harry or Snape. After Sirius death, those around Harry kept insisting that it was what Sirius would have wanted. Sirius would have been happy to go out fighting for a cause he believed in. Sirius took the choice to go to the MOM. Once Harry starts to accept that people make choices to die willingly because they believe in what they are dying for, it will relieve him of his greatest vulnerability with regards to Voldemort, IMO, which is the feeling of responsibility he has for the safety of his friends. It is very significant, IMO, that JKR has set the age of consent in the WW at 17. What she is saying here, is that all the main protagonists (except Ginny) are of age, adult and responsible for the choices they make. The fact that the protection ends on Harry's 17th birthday, is like saying that now, no-one else is responsible for him. So Harry is going to have to realise that all his friends have choices to make, and that they choose to put themselves in danger. It is not his responsibility what happens to them. In fact, although he would walk to the ends of earth to protect them (which is his motivation in parting from Ginny), he cannot in fact save them. It is this feeling that he can save people, which has in the past, put his friends in danger (MOM in OotP). I might be reading this one really wrong, but I think JKR might be going down the road of saying no-one can save you from yourself, and neither can you save anyone else from themselves. Well I haven't even touched on the Love stuff yet, that I wanted to investigate, but I think this post is quite long enough already. Saraquel Who is contemplating writing a PhD on The Concept of Choice in the Harry Potter Universe :-) From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 12 13:46:37 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:46:37 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > It is being revealed that Snape and Lily were comrades of > a sort, both members of the Slug Club and both extraordinary students. > Snape could not have kept from himself forever that "Mudblood" was > just a dirty word while he was so clearly exposed to the > contradiction. where is that revealed? Snape was a member of the Slugclub? Do you have a page number? The only thing we do know is that Slughorn was the head of house in Slytherin & Snape was in that house. Where is it that Snape & Lily were *comrades* of a sort? They were in advanced potions - but who is to say their relationship wasn't more of a Draco/Hermoine type? colebiancardi From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 14:01:25 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:01:25 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > JLV now (groans ensue...): > I am sure this point isn't canon related, it is that you are pointing > out what you regard to be an inconsistency in the single-timeline > theory. I think that the inconsistency you see is not a logical one, > rather it is inconsistent with a notion you have of causation and > determinism, neither of which you have supported with canon. I am > sorry you can't make sense of the idea that something at 10pm can > affect something at 6pm, but as others can understand this concept > Something at 10pm can't affect something at 6pm until 10pm takes place, but 6pm has to take place before 10pm, right? So there you have it, plain and simple. 6-10pm happens before 10pm changes what happened at 6pm. If 6pm never happens without the influence of 10pm then all of time has already occurred and is just being witnessed. > Your point seems to be that a `future' event may affect a `past' > event on the single-timeline theory. Gasp! You say this is > impossible, and I say that this is the whole point of time-travel! No, my point is that before a future event can affect a past event the past events have to occur without the future events having taken place. There has to be a time when Harry exists at 7pm without a time traveling Harry in the scene because he hasn't time traveled yet. It's just that after the time traveling takes place all knowledge of pre-time-traveling events is lost. And, um, in case you missed it, most single-timeline theorists insist that time traveling can't change past events, which you have just contradicted. > Myself and other posters have pointed out that the dual-timeline > theory you propose is *logically* inconsistent, which I regard to > be the worst sort of inconsistency (as anything follows from a > contradiction). I don't see the logical inconsistency with a dual-timeline theory, but I also don't see how you can fail to see the huge problem with the single timeline theory. 9pm can't come before 6pm, so 6-9pm must take place before time traveling occurs, meaning that there is a timeline without a time traveler before there is a timeline with a time traveler. > So we prefer the single-timeline theory. But not just > from this logical perspective ? it is also from a canon one. > Um, you mean all the canon that says that past events can be changed? Oh wait, no, you ignore that canon and make up fake canon about how McGonagal is a hysterical liar. Or maybe that was someone else. > JLV: > I say that, from the perspective of reasoning alone, I don't even > think that the word `change' really can apply to the past - how can > the past *have been* one way *in the past* but *now be* something > different? I don't think that even makes sense. In what past was the > past different exactly? I'll answer your question with your own words: "I say that this is the whole point of time-travel!" > If you remove the book context, the timelines > fall apart *but* (I can hear you shouting) that doesn't mean that JKR > couldn't write her book this way! Of course it doesn't ? after all > there are loads of books that do. > All I am saying is that she > *didn't* write it this way. In your own way, you actually said so too. The timelines don't fall apart by removing the book context. There is just a timeline that must have been there if time travel works the way it is described in her book, which she never realized and never wrote. The single timeline theory is nonsensical because it requires the future to take place before the past, ALWAYS, even before time traveling takes place, and canon explicitly states that traveling in time can change events, which I think necessitates multiple timelines. > > All I can say is that I really do think that JKR is writing from the > single-timeline perspective. I support this by again saying that > there is *only one* timeline given in the books. Your "support" is simply JKR's mistake or ommission. She makes it clear that traveling in time can change past events but she apparently didn't consider what the events were before Harry went and saved himself. > It is explicitly stated > that magic cannot bring people back to life. The dual-timeline theory > allows this to happen! Harry and Hermione's time travel saved Sirius and Buckbeak, so apparently this is an exception. - davenclaw From jjjjjulie at aol.com Fri Aug 12 14:11:38 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:11:38 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > However, I was reading to my daughter last night and we got to a > description of Professor Slughorn and something occurred to me: he > sounds like he's related to Vernon. What if Vernon and Marge's > mother had been a Squib niece of the portly Slytherin? JKR has said absolutely nothing about this scenario so it is not possible. At this point, with one book to go, she's not going to be introducing convenient and previously unmentioned and unsupported storylines like this into the story. > By this reckoning, my guess is that the later-in-life mystery magic > user will be Dudley. Which would make a different kind of sense out > of Dumbledore's admonition that the Durselys have been abusing > Dudley. What if they've been suppressing his natural--if not > particularly large--magical ability? JKR has said that there is nothing more to Dudley than what you see: ------------------- http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 Sunday 15 August 2004 J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye? No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a character without much back story. He is just Dudley. The next book, Half Blood Prince, is the least that you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more in the final book, but you don't get a lot of Dudley in book six?very few lines. I am sorry if there are Dudley fans out there, but I think you need to look at your priorities if it is Dudley that you are looking forward to. [Laughter]. --------------------- --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > jjjjjuliep wrote: > > > Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? > > > Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a > > Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the > > other books. You might have got the impression that there is a > > little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will > > find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very > > good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being > > shockingly indiscreet. > ----------------- > > > JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do magic, > > and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. > > > Second, I think it's pretty clear with Book 6 that Merope is the > > person how uses magic late in life. The magic late in life comment > > goes back to 1999: > > vmonte: > Merope? I'm confused, wasn't she a witch already? Didn't she die > young? Besides, why would JKR be laughing the way she is in the > quote if she was talking about Merope? She's not. You have 1. confused the two quotes and 2. taken them to somehow refer to the same person. If you read them both again, in their entirety, and in the context of my post (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137265) you will see that in one interview, from last year, JKR says categorically that Petunia is a Muggle. This is the interview where she laughs. I also quoted an interview from 1999 where she made the "magic late in life" comment. > 3. Petunia (Who everyone thinks is a Muggle.) > > I could see why JKR would giggle about any of the above people > turning out to be the late bloomer. Again, you have confused the two separate interviews and ascribed her behavior (laughter) in one of them to the other, which is incorrect. > But I think it's Petunia. JKR likes to get revenge on nasty > characters. She is not going to kill them, that's for sure. Having > Petunia and her family die at the hands of DEs would be the worst > thing JKR could do. [deletia] > But making Petunia a witch would be sweet revenge. This is the > worst thing that could happen in Petunia's eyes (except for Dudley > turning out to be a wizard) while at the same time be the funniest > thing that I could see happening to her. Where on Earth, or in the books and interviews, is the canon for this? I am extremely perplexed as to how the author of the series can say over and over that Petunia is a Muggle and yet those comments are completely ignored. Isn't this supposed to be a canon-oriented list? The canon says, uneqivocally, that Petunia is a Muggle: ------------------- http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 Sunday 15 August 2004 J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? Good question. *No,* *she* *is* *not*, but?[Laughter]. *No,* *she* *is* *not* *a* *Squib.* *She* *is* *a* *Muggle,* but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet. ------------------ The fact JKR laughs means nothing. She's doing a live interview, she's interacting with people, and they're laughing together. And there's this quote from this year: -------------------------------- http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet- anelli-3.htm Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005 MA: What about Harry's family ? his grandparents ? were they killed? JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: *Petunia* *and* *Lily's* *parents,* *normal* *Muggle* *death.* James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him- late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them. ------------------- The Evans family is Muggle through and through, with the sole exception of Lily--not unlike Hermione's case. If the canon says, without the trace of a doubt, that Petunia is a Muggle, and this is said quite clearly by the author herself--the person who knows how the books are going to turn out and the person who has never lied to us in interviews, then how is it possible that Petunia is going to do magic? I am completely perplexed. Do the author's own words mean absolutely nothing to some people? >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > As for Petunia, canon suggests that she knows more about the > wizarding world than she is letting on. We also have canon that > Petunia is a nosy neighbour. Therefore, I'm sure she would have > been interested in Lily's 'world'. IMO, Petunia has a piece of > information that is going to help Harry. I do agree with this assessment of how Petunia will surprise us. > If i was going to guess (and I see no problem with guessing!), I > can see Vernon making a disparaging remark about DD entering his > house again and Harry blurting out that he had been killed by > Snape. At this point Petunia will link Snape & Lily in some way! But this I don't. ;-) I think Petunia will produce the letter that Dumbledore left with Harry and also reveal the mystery behind the "PETUNIA REMEMBER MY LAST" Howler. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > It seems patently obvious to me that the character who performs > magic "quite late in life" is not the middle-aged Petunia or the > very young Merope but the elderly Mrs. Figg, whom we've already > seen in somewhat desperate circumstances defending Harry, and who, > I think, will pick up his wand when it's been knocked out of his > hand and point it at a Death Eater. (I expect Harry's glasses to > be knocked off, too--JKR has said that his eyes are the key to his > vulnerability.) Figgy has lived in the WW or on its fringes all > her life. She knows its vocabulary (e.g., "The cat's among the > pixies now!") and she undoubtedly knows the names of at least some > spells and their corrsponding incantations. She could shout > "Stupefy!" for example, and the bit of residual magic in her (she > can talk to cats and presumably, like Filch, see Hogwarts) would > surface--rather like the surge of adrenaline that once enabled > 120-pound me to lift the rear end of my car out of a ditch rather > than starve to death in a pine forest far from help. A well-reasoned, well-supported idea (as usual from Carol) which is not entirely convincing to me. ;-) See, this is much too "deus ex machina" for me, and IMO out of keeping with JKR's plotting style, which doesn't cheat like that. But if the option of thinking it is Merope were not on the table, this is the most sensible option in accordance with the canon. jujube From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 14:13:30 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:13:30 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "komagata_mai" wrote: > All of time exists > at the same time, you > just happen to experience sequentially as a consequence of being > human. I think you have accurately expressed the view of other single- timeline theorists. However I am not sure that everyone understands that this is the consequence of accepting this theory: essentially you are accepting that time doesn't move sequentially. I have a huge problem with this. You are basically admitting what I expressed yesterday: my point of contention with single-timeline theorists is that is it requires the future to have already taken place. I feel that this theory contradicts the numerous statements in PoA which state that the past can be altered when time-traveling. It excuses the omission of an "original" timeline but contradicts the warnings about changing the past. - davenclaw From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 14:26:13 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:26:13 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137391 CV: I think Dumbledore is alive. I think the Draft of Living Death > > Ronaldo: > I thought al the phoenix imagery was a clue to a possible > "rebirth", like phoenixes die and then are reborn. CV: I don't think it was an image. I think it was Dumbledore's patronus sending a message to the Order that everything is fine, go along with the plan. > I feel the speech DD gave to the Dursleys in the beginning > of the book was a clue to the fact that he didn't expect > to be around one year later... > > Ronaldo CV: I think it was really a message meant for Harry. "Don't skip this last bit of protection while I'm away." As soon as Harry stops calling the Dursleys' "home", the protection goes away. That would be after Dumbldore's "death" unless Dumbledore makes sure otherwise. There is really no point to making such a speech for the Dursleys' benefit. As long as Petunia thinks Dumbledore is viable, then she will make sure that Harry has a home there. I wish I knew what leverage Dumbledore has over Petunia. Constance Vigilance From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 12 14:31:28 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:31:28 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neri's old theory. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137392 Neri: > Moreover, once Snape knows that Umbridge is in the Forest and her office is wide open, I see no reason why he can't use her fireplace to communicate with 12GP instantaneously Pippin: Good thought! But then he'd get Kreacher! Whatever Kreacher said, it would be for the purpose of confusing Snape. We know that Kreacher can lie, and that even Dumbledore had trouble getting through his defenses. That would explain why Snape only grew worried that Harry might "still" believe the vision when he didn't come back. He might have thought, thanks to Kreacher, that Harry had been told that Sirius was safe, and the purpose of Harry's message was to get Snape to double check. That Harry seemed to have shifted his attention to dealing with Umbridge would confirm this. Still, Snape was concerned enough to send a patronus to GP to make sure. Why would Snape be worried about anything Harry would run into in the forest? It's part of the grounds, the Death Eaters can't get in. It's now canon that Snape has known all along that Harry is the Chosen One. If Umbridge or anything else in the Forbidden Forest thinks they can take him on, they're no doubt mistaken. Pippin From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 14:36:31 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:36:31 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Tower Battle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137393 > Miz Storge: > > There were two bodies in the area of the battle downstairs. One of them > was identified as Gibbon (taken out accidentally by the 'Huge Blonde > DE?), but we're left to ponder the other one. CV: Actually, the other one was revealed to be Bill, down after Fenrir's attack. From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 15:00:14 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:00:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005f01c59f4e$8d4ebbe0$4821f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137394 Brothergib Snape's actions will gain Voldemort's trust, and therefore Snape will know of Voldemort's plans. At present this will be more valuable to Harry than DD's protection. Sherry now: I'm actually responding to two different posts of yours. Let me say first that unless JKR comes out with a definite yes or no on Snape, you are not going to convince me that he is good, and I am not going to convince you that he is evil. So, ok, from there, my first response to your statement above is ... how? how is Snape going to be of more use to Harry than Dumbledore? Harry will *never* listen to anything from Snape now. He saw him murder Dumbledore. He'll never listen. Snape would have to go through someone Harry trusts. who? Nobody else will trust him either. They all accepted the Snape murdered Dumbledore statement quite easily. As to Snape as spy being more valuable than Dumbledore, the only wizard Voldemort fears? I just don't believe it. The fact that Voldemort fears Dumbledore can be a very valuable asset and may have held him back. Certainly, it would have helped keep him away from Hogwarts, I would think. Will Voldemort try to take over Hogwarts now with whoever will be in charge next year? To me, there's no way Snape is anywhere near as valuable to the war as Dumbledore. Brothergib Snape's behaviour often suggests that he is on the side of good! Sherry now: I guess that is a matter of opinion and interpretation. For years I struggled to believe Snape as good guy. I tried simply because of Dumbledore's belief in Snape. JKR had me so convinced of Dumbledore's always being right, that I wanted to believe in Snape as mean but basically ok. But seriously, now that I'm free to see him as I believe he truly is, there's nothing that suggests to me that he is good all along. Especially when I consider his abuse of his students. No matter how I slice it, his treatment of Neville is abusive and could send a kid to the wizarding version of a psychiatrist for years. As a former victim of emotional and verbal abuse, I can understand how deeply it cuts and wounds, and I was an adult, not a vulnerable child. A man who will viciously taunt and threaten children can't be a good guy in my opinion, and now I'm free to believe it without the filter of Dumbledore's misplaced trust in Snape to confuse the issue. Brothergib And, IMO, most damning of all, is his reaction to Harry's comment of Coward. Again IMO, it doesn't make sense that if Snape had finally killed DD and freed himself of Hogwarts, he would care what Harry said to him. He would be elated and not react this way. What makes more sense, IMO, is if Snape has just been forced to kill DD(on DD's orders) to ultimately help Harry (someone he doesn't think is up to the job) and is then called a coward, he might not be able to control his temper!! Sherry now: Well, we see this completely differently. I don't think it takes a whole lot of courage to murder a sick and weak man. Dumbledore was unarmed without his wand. Not a very brave act to walk up and do the WW version of shooting someone in the head. Nothing will convince me of a secret plan between the two. I don't find it in character for Dumbledore to give up and die. Not that he's afraid of death, but that he still has work to do. his death could well leave the WW in chaos, wide open to Voldemort who will fear noone now. Also, his conversation with Draco at the end did not sound like someone who was expecting to die any minute. He was making plans with Draco for the future, offering ways of protection. And no matter what plan I may create with a friend, if someone walked up and shot me, then tried to say it was all my idea, that person would still be tried for murder, and my friends and associates would consider him a murderer. For me, only if Dumbledore is *not* dead, can the whole idea of a plan be acceptable. Otherwise, there's no excuse to murder, to take an innocent life. no excuse at all. So, as I say, until book seven, I think we will just not convince each other. And that's ok. JKR must be so delighted at the hours of speculation she has created by this one act. sherry From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 15:05:38 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:05:38 -0000 Subject: Harry is right WAS:Draco's absence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julia" wrote: > What's more interesting IMO > is the fact that throughout the whole HBP Harry is right in his > suspicions about Draco and Snape. He guesses right about Draco's > involvment with DEs, his Mission, him being in Room of Requirement, > the attack on Hogwarts etc. He's right. Which is unexpected because > before that Harry's suspicions were always wrong. > > I begin to wonder is it only because JKR needed it for a plot or > there is something more to it... > I don't know how you guys but I was shocked when it turned out Harry > was right!!! > I found this interesting too; a few weeks ago I wrote that I felt this was a possible clue that Snape really is evil, because a significant aspect of this book is that Harry is right despite the doubts of others. This along with his newfound maturity in dealing with his suspicions suggest to me that JKR is trying to tell us that Harry understands the situation better than others and can trust his instincts in a way that he couldn't before, and therefore it would seem that Snape is truly evil. If it turns out that he is wrong about Snape, that would go against this major theme of HBP; however this could be his last obstacle to maturity. If Snape presents a believable explanation of events and perhaps proves his loyalty to DD instead of the DEs, it could be a final hurdle that Harry has to overcome, trusting Snape despite his feelings about him, and this decision could pave the way to his victory. - davenclaw From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 12 15:08:24 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:08:24 -0000 Subject: Snape knows Harry's Chosen One? (was:Snape and Neri's old theory.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137396 Pippin: > It's now canon that Snape has known all along that Harry is the > Chosen One. SSSusan: Erm... can I ask how this is canon? Per DD, in the Weasleys' broomshed: "Yes," said Harry again. "And now everyone knows that I'm the one--" "No, they do not," interrupted Dumbledore. "There are only two people in the whole world who know the full contents of the prophecy made about you and Lord Voldemort, and they are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed." [HBP, p. 78, US edition] So how do we know Snape has known all along? Siriusly Snapey Susan From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 15:11:26 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:11:26 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137397 Julia : > I think that Petunia was not magical enough to attend Hogwarts, but > at the same time she really didn't want to go there. She resented > magic and IMO it was the reason she was 'sapped' of her minimal but > still existing abilities. > > Just my opinion, but i'd be glad to know what others think of it. Marianne S: My main question with this stems from the fact that any witch or wizard born in Britain has their name written down to attend hogwarts at birth. My thought is that if Petunia had any magical abilities, she would have gotten a letter for Hogwarts and her parents would have been proud, etc. So, my question is, can one have *some* magical abilities but not be a witch/wizard? If the answer to that question is yes, then Petunia, a muggle, (with at least extraordinary powers to nitpick and clean)could only then be the one who comes to magic late in life. And I do think that in your 40's is later in life when compared to teenagers. Consequently, if it is Petunia... I wouldn't be surprised if it is feeling her long buried love for her sister that brings out these powers. I would love to see Vernon and Dudley's reaction to a magical act from Petunia. Marianne S From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 15:15:18 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:18 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137398 vmonte: > Merope? I'm confused, wasn't she a witch already? Didn't she die > young? Besides, why would JKR be laughing the way she is in the > quote if she was talking about Merope? jujube: She's not. You have 1. confused the two quotes and 2. taken them to somehow refer to the same person. If you read them both again, in their entirety, and in the context of my post (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137265) you will see that in one interview, from last year, JKR says categorically that Petunia is a Muggle. This is the interview where she laughs. I also quoted an interview from 1999 where she made the "magic late in life" comment. vmonte: Sorry, you're right. The first part was just a question in general about Merope. I thought that Merope was a witch not a squib, so I didn't understand why you thought she wasn't (I was not attacking you, but by your angry tone you must have took my comment as an attack). I've now reread the Merope scene in question and I still think that Merope is not the late bloomer JKR is talking about, but that's just my opinion. The other comment about JKR laughing that I made IS weird (I probably should not post again when taking sudafed which makes me very sleepy). That did not come out right, sorry. That comment has nothing to do with your post but just my idea that JKR is going to make Petunia the late bloomer and that JKR is getting a kick out of that fact. Vivian From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 15:18:58 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:18:58 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > So, what Snape had been already doing? Hm, since I am a fan of > Snape choosing evil path on the Tower, I can suggest several > things which he > had been already doing, which all had been suggested of course. > It may be simply that Snape never told DD about the Unbreakable Vow, and he was saying that he could not spy on Malfoy to the extent that DD wanted him to, because if he worked against Malfoy instead of helping him he would die. If Snape never told DD about the Vow, it would suggest that he is an evil death eater after all. - davenclaw From barbswright at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 04:15:00 2005 From: barbswright at gmail.com (Barb Wright) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:15:00 -0700 Subject: Sleeping Portrait was Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731ca75a050811211578a924b8@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137400 Jeanette wrote: >And the portrait is one thing that does puzzle me. IF Dumbledore is >dead, then surely his portrait should "wake-up", but it does not. CathyD wrote: >Ah, but those former headmasters/headmistresses *fake* sleep all the >time, don't they? Barb: In ch 29, (pp 625 & 626 US edition), when Harry follows Prof. McGonagall into the Headmaster's office, he notices a new portrait, DD. "After glancing once at this portrait Professor McGonagall made an odd movement as though steeling herself..." That is, of course, Harry's interpretation of her motivation for making "an odd movement". I think it could be that she is signalling to DD to stay "slumbering". Might she be testing Harry's commitment to his promise not to reveal the Horcrux Quest to anyone but Hermione and Ron? -- Cheers! Barb (note the S in my new Gmail address - barbSwright at gmail.com From jjjjjulie at aol.com Fri Aug 12 15:26:47 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:26:47 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > > Merope? I'm confused, wasn't she a witch already? Didn't she die > > > young? Besides, why would JKR be laughing the way she is in the > > > quote if she was talking about Merope? > > jujube: > > She's not. You have 1. confused the two quotes and 2. taken them > > to somehow refer to the same person. If you read them both again, > > in their entirety, and in the context of my post > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137265) you > > will see that in one interview, from last year, JKR says > > categorically that Petunia is a Muggle. This is the interview > > where she laughs. I also quoted an interview from 1999 where she > > made the "magic late in life" comment. > > vmonte: > Sorry, you're right. The first part was just a question in general > about Merope. I thought that Merope was a witch not a squib, so I > didn't understand why you thought she wasn't (I was not attacking > you, but by your angry tone you must have took my comment as an > attack). Just to clarify, because it's important: I didn't take your comment as an attack. Nor was I angry; I was trying to write my response as clearly and concretely as possible since there seemed to be a lot of confusion on this important topic. There's no reason for any of us to be angry when we are discussing ideas; there's nothing personal here and it's all in good fun. ;-) jujube From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 12 15:28:45 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:28:45 -0000 Subject: Snape knows Harry's Chosen One? (was:Snape and Neri's old theory.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137402 > Pippin: > > It's now canon that Snape has known all along that Harry is the > > Chosen One. > > > SSSusan: > Erm... can I ask how this is canon? > > Per DD, in the Weasleys' broomshed: > > "Yes," said Harry again. "And now everyone knows that I'm the one--" > > "No, they do not," interrupted Dumbledore. "There are only two > people in the whole world who know the full contents of the prophecy made about you and Lord Voldemort, and they are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed." > [HBP, p. 78, US edition] > > So how do we know Snape has known all along? > Pippin: Snape doesn't know the full contents of the prophecy. But he knows that "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. ..Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...." because he heard Trelawney say those words. And he knows whom Voldemort believes the One to be "you have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy." [HBP-US p 549] I think part of Snape's cover is to behave as though he thinks Voldemort was mistaken and there really is nothing special or important about Harry. Hence the constant sneering. Pippin From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 15:32:56 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:32:56 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137403 "esmith222002" wrote: > I think he [Dumbledore] now believes > that Harry is ready, which is why he > is prepared to sacrifice himself. > Snape's actions will gain VOldemort's > trust, and therefore Snape will know > of Voldemort's plans. At present this > will be more valuable to Harry than > DD's protection. I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore reluctantly on Dumbledore's orders and at heart Snape is really a pussycat theory. I believe any one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea. 1) Snape already had Voldemort's trust, we are told in chapter 2 that he is the Dark Lord's closest adviser and he already knows of the Top Secret plan to kill Dumbledore, there was no need for the Order of the Phoenix to lose their most powerful wizard for Voldemort to trust him. 2) It doesn't matter if Snape knows of Voldemort's plans now because he can't tell anyone, nobody in the OotP would believe him, in fact they'd kill him on sight before he could even open his mouth. 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he murdered Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor. 4) I do not believe Dumbledore would ask anyone to become a murderer. 5) If Dumbledore did have some sort of wacky plan he would have to be brain dead dumb not to tell Harry about it; he must know that after Harry saw him be murdered by Snape he would never rest until Snape was dead, or Harry was. It's time for all you Snape lovers to realize that it's over, the fat lady has sung and Snape is much more than just unpleasant, he's evil. Eggplant From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 15:33:23 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:33:23 -0000 Subject: Harry as a natural legilimens Was Re: GH in Harry's memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137404 wrote: > OotP (UK ed p468) > "You have no subtlety, Potter," said Snape ."You do not > understand fine distinctions .The mind is not a book, to > be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are > not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any > invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, > Potter It is true however, that those who have mastered > Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve > into the minds of their victims and to interpret their > findings correctly." > > Then later on p469 Snape says "The evidence suggests that > at times, when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable ? > when you are asleep for instance ? you are sharing the > Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions." (Harry) "I saw > the snake attack Mr Weasly." > (Snape)"the vision you had shortly before Christmas re- > presented such a powerful *incursion* upon the Dark Lord's > thoughts." > 2) I think that one of the powers which Voldemort trans- > ferred to Harry is Legilimency. Harry is a natural legil- > imens. The above quote indicates to me that Snape is try- > ing hard (and I've snipped bits which explain how careful > Snape is in his explanation!) not to let Harry realise > this. Snape eventually uses the word *incursion* which to > me implies that it was Harry delving into Voldemort's mind > not Voldemort delving into Harry's, that we are dealing > with here. > Later, when Harry manages to bounce Snape's Legilimency > spell, Harry easily accesses Snape's head, and manages to > interpret, very easily what is going on in there. A real > natural. > > If true, this raises some questions: > Presumably DD realises that Harry is a Legilimens and the > danger of seeing what's in Voldemort's mind is many layer- > ed. DD later says to Harry in HBP, that he is amazed > (paraphrasing wildly here) that Harry, with such access > as he has to Voldemort's mind hasn't been turned to the > dark arts. So, I think, it is not only to protect > Harry from Voldemort's cruelty and to protect Order Secrets > that DD wants Harry to learn Occlumency. (Mind you, if > DD had thought about it for even half a second, he would > have known that Harry would make a hopeless Occlumens.) > But in order to protect Harry from temptation. > Harry, Voldemort and legilimency. OOOhhhhh the possibilities > for the future in that one. How about the final showdown > being a lot to do with minds and not much to do with bodies? > OK here's a theory (I've posted a bit of it before, but now > I'll expand more) which takes into account DD's *gleam* > (this bit's for you Valky!), blood and the power of love. > > In the final showdown Harry and Voldemort lock minds, > Voldemort intent on probing Harry's emotional weaknesses > and Harry intent on probing Voldemort's fears. Let's put > them either in the Room of Love at the MOM (a favourite > theory of mine which I'm reluctant to let go of) or if > not there, then Harry at least has been into the Room of > Love and can make a connection to it. Now Voldemort has > some of Harry's blood in him. Blood, I think, is where > emotion lies. Voldemort is very snake-like physically, > therefore cold blooded and vulnerable to being burnt by > the heat of passionate emotion, such as Love. Harry, who > by this time has realised the *Power* of Love that DD has > been talking about, uses the access he has to Voldemort's > mind to channel this love into Voldemort and into his > blood, Voldemort's blood boils and hey presto ? dead > Voldemort. This is why DD had the gleam in his eye, > because Harry's blood is full of love, and therefore > has the potential to destroy Voldemort from the inside. > Ok, so where's the cannon support for all this. Yes well, > dream on Saraquel! I've thought we were headed in the direction of Harry being a decent legilimens since the discussion you cited above. In HBP, though, I think we have a hint as to what use that ability might be put to: finding horcruxes. We "know" that Voldemort stopped trying to explore Harry's mind because he discovered that the process was not a one-way affair (Snape's and Dumbledore's hypotheses). But, would Voldemort be able to stop Harry if Harry explicitly and deliberately tries to probe his rather twisted mind for information about horcruxes? Does the termination of contact by Voldemort post-Battle of the MoM represent active Occlumency by Voldemort? Or is it simply that he learned that it is painful and dangerous to even look, and thus stopped? JKR has to lead us through the discovery and destruction of at least four horcruxes, plus a climactic battle, and post-story life stories in a single volume. It took Dumbledore years to get to discover what he had, and it cost him his life (yes, through being weakened by the events up through the return to Hogwarts, he was volnerable, and thus was killed) to see to the destruction of just one and the discovery of a faux horcrux. We do have Dumbledore in the form of his portrait, which means that not all of what he learned has been lost, but we still have a great deal of research, search and such to go through in order to destroy those horcruxes. Harry probing Voldemort's mind -- discretely, cautiously, slowly -- would certainly speed this process, and might be accomplished with no more awareness on Voldemort's part than thinking he is recalling past victories. This would require that someone help Harry discover that he has the potential to do this, and teach him how to do it so as not to be discovered. Again, we have Dumbledore's portrait, so if Dumbledore knew or strongly suspected this possibility existed, we don't have to go through a long plot development to arrive at it. The portrait would not likely be a good teacher of the skill in actual practice, but would still be able to direct Harry to a suitable teacher. Personally, I don't believe Harry has really left Hogwarts permanently. It is too great a resource for him not to use it, its library, its faculty, in both defense of his person and in learning what he must in order to accomplish his task. If nothing else, he will almost certainly need to ask Dumbledore's portrait a few questions in order to verify certain facts, and perhaps to get some advice regarding how to approach some problem or problems. I can see Minerva as head mistress offering Harry the run of the school and grounds, and living with Hagrid, or in an apartment ordinarily reserved for visitors. (He could also be at 12 Grimauld Place, since he owns it, but I don't see Harry as that reclusive: he would be in contact with members of the Order, but I don't see the Weasleys and the Grangers easily letting their Ron and Hermione give up school in order to participate in a very dangerous quest, and these (plus Ginny) are Harry's only real friends. He also might end up at the Weasley's, or with Geord and Frege, but both would tend to be uncomfortable in a number of ways.) I also don't see Harry and Ginny completely seperated for the duration. There is a wedding to attend, and now that Mr. Weasley has said that "half" the family owes their lives to Harry, I can't see either Weasley parent raising serious objections to Harry and Ginny spending some time together and in privacy. (I don't think this means sex, but I also don't think Ginny is going to give up on Harry. She is, in a sense, the "fourth musketeer," whether Harry likes it or not, and with special interest in Harry. The fact that these two are an item is already known to Voldemort through Snape, Malfoy and any number of other sources, including tales of Harry's rescue of Ginny in CoS, so the current parting does not, to me, make Ginny any safer than as Harry's active, avowed and present love interest.) But, back to the point, Harry the legilimens of Voldemort's worst fears (It would be an exceedingly good thing for Harry to be able to anticipate Voldemort's moves!) makes sense from a number of perspectives, not all of which will I mention because I'm confident I can't think of them all. Further discussion of these point should be interesting, so I hope there is some. But, in the end, it is JKR's story ... It will play out as she chooses. Richard, who has always had a thing for red-heads, and so hopes Harry doesn't have to lose "his." From bunnyc at optusnet.com.au Fri Aug 12 12:17:10 2005 From: bunnyc at optusnet.com.au (Bunny) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:17:10 +1000 Subject: I'm Convinced DD is Dead Message-ID: <001001c59f37$c40421f0$5fdceddc@dee> No: HPFGUIDX 137405 I've just finished reading the book for the second time and two things have convinced me that Dumbledore is dead. The first is Fawkes' lament....there's no way they would have fooled him, and the second is that JKR indicated that she was a little sad over Sirius, but was extremely upset at the end of this particular book. I still don't know what to make of Snape.......throughout all six books I've thought what a loathsome creature he is and was annoyed that DD would allow someone such as him to teach children at his school, but now a little bit of me is starting to think that maybe he's a good guy after all. However, JKR description of him is exactly what you'd expect a typical villain to look like: greasy hair, hooked nose, sallow skin, yellow teeth, grey undies, most unpleasant nature. Perhaps we're guilty of ignoring her description and in our mind's eye are picturing him as Alan Rickman. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 12 15:41:33 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:41:33 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Tower Battle (WAS DoubleAgent!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137406 > > Pippin > > Miz Storge: > I wonder if its difficult for an investigator to determine what kind of > spell someone is recovering from when the results are similar - > Petrificus Totalus as opposed to Stupify, for instance? Pippin: Actually, the effects are different. PT leaves the person conscious, able to move only their eyes. Stupefy knocks them out. Scrimgeour says that the DE had been Stupefied after Dumbledore died. Presumably he wouldn't trust anything a DE told him, so there's got to be corroborating evidence of when it happened. There were people on the grounds looking up at the tower who might have seen a jet of red light from the Stunning Spell. In that case, it suggests that someone came up to the Tower after Harry and stunned the already frozen Death Eater so that they could do something unobserved. Get Harry's cloak? Pippin From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 15:43:25 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:43:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: <005f01c59f4e$8d4ebbe0$4821f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137407 Sherry now: Well, we see this completely differently. I don't think it takes a whole lot of courage to murder a sick and weak man. Dumbledore was unarmed without his wand. Not a very brave act to walk up and do the WW version of shooting someone in the head. Nothing will convince me of a secret plan between the two. I don't find it in character for Dumbledore to give up and die. Not that he's afraid of death, but that he still has work to do. his death could well leave the WW in chaos, wide open to Voldemort who will fear no one now. Also, his conversation with Draco at the end did not sound like someone who was expecting to die any minute. He was making plans with Draco for the future, offering ways of protection. And no matter what plan I may create with a friend, if someone walked up and shot me, then tried to say it was all my idea, that person would still be tried for murder, and my friends and associates would consider him a murderer. For me, only if Dumbledore is *not* dead, can the whole idea of a plan be acceptable. Otherwise, there's no excuse to murder, to take an innocent life. no excuse at all. So, as I say, until book seven, I think we will just not convince each other. And that's ok. JKR must be so delighted at the hours of speculation she has created by this one act. vmonte: I agree with you Sherry, nice post. You know it's going to take divine intervention for Snape to redeem himself in my opinion. He is so hateful that for him to realize that he has been wrong Harry is going to have to drag him into that "Love Room," or rather the room of enlightenment where you realize every wrong you have done and understand what true love is. Perhaps Snape will have a moment of clarity on Judgement Day! :) Vivian From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 12 15:44:56 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:44:56 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "esmith222002" wrote: > 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he murdered > Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor. > > really? How is that? Seems to me that he was acting desperate, not enjoying himself at all....Was he laughing or taunting DD at the pivotal moment? After AK'ing DD, he was running for his life(and with Draco's, I might add) colebiancardi From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 12 15:47:43 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:47:43 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137409 > Davenclaw: > Something at 10pm can't affect something at 6pm until 10pm takes > place, but 6pm has to take place before 10pm, right? So there you > have it, plain and simple. 6-10pm happens before 10pm changes what > happened at 6pm. If 6pm never happens without the influence of 10pm > then all of time has already occurred and is just being witnessed. JLV: 6pm takes place before 10pm *to the clock*, but to TT!Harry 10pm-to- the-clock on Hogwart's wall takes place twice, once earlier-to-Harry and once later-to-Harry. You also assume that "6-10pm happens before 10pm changes what happened at 6pm" which is begging the question. You also miss, throughout your response, the crucial distinction between `affect' and `change'. These words do not mean the same thing. In the context of this discussion, `affect' means `be a cause of' and `change' means `to stop being one way and start being another'. I steer clear of using the word change because it is a temporal term ? stop being one way as it was in the past and start being another way as it will be in the future. Of course we use the word `change' a lot in everyday language, but in a precise discussion such as this one we must keep this distinction clear. > JLV: > > Your point seems to be that a `future' event may affect a `past' > > event on the single-timeline theory. Gasp! You say this is > > impossible, and I say that this is the whole point of time- travel! > > Davenclaw: > No, my point is that before a future event can affect a past event > the past events have to occur without the future events having taken > place. There has to be a time when Harry exists at 7pm without a > time traveling Harry in the scene because he hasn't time traveled > yet. JLV: Actually, at 9.15pm-to-the-clock he *has* time travelled in a sense, because there are two Harrys around. It must have happened, because the effect is there. > Davenclaw: > And, um, in case you missed it, most single-timeline theorists > insist that time traveling can't change past events, which you have > just contradicted. JLV: I did no such thing. I said `affect'. You read `change'. Please bear the distinction I have made in mind because there is a lot of potential ambiguity here. > > JLV: > > Myself and other posters have pointed out that the dual-timeline > > theory you propose is *logically* inconsistent, which I regard to > > be the worst sort of inconsistency (as anything follows from a > > contradiction). > Davenclaw: > I don't see the logical inconsistency with a dual-timeline theory. JLV: Okay, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. > Davenclaw: > but I also don't see how you can fail to see the huge problem with > the single timeline theory. 9pm can't come before 6pm, so 6-9pm > must take place before time traveling occurs, meaning that there is > a timeline without a time traveler before there is a timeline with a > time traveler. JLV: That simply isn't true. Remember 6pm takes place before 10pm *to the clock*, but to TT!Harry 10pm-to-the-clock on Hogwart's wall takes place twice, once earlier-to-Harry and once later-to-Harry. > > JLV: > > So we prefer the single-timeline theory. But not just > > from this logical perspective ? it is also from a canon one. > > > Davenclaw: > Um, you mean all the canon that says that past events can be > changed? Oh wait, no, you ignore that canon and make up fake canon > about how McGonagal is a hysterical liar. Or maybe that was someone > else. JLV: Ouch. Is fake canon an oxymoron? Anyway, I didn't say that "McGonagal is a hysterical liar". Those are your words. Please don't put words in my mouth. > > JLV: > > I say that, from the perspective of reasoning alone, I don't even > > think that the word `change' really can apply to the past - how > can > > the past *have been* one way *in the past* but *now be* something > > different? I don't think that even makes sense. In what past was > the > > past different exactly? > Davenclaw: > I'll answer your question with your own words: "I say that this is > the whole point of time-travel!" JLV: I'm not sure what you mean. I think you've missed my point. Remember the `change'/'affect' distinction. > > JLV: > > If you remove the book context, the timelines > > fall apart *but* (I can hear you shouting) that doesn't mean that > JKR > > couldn't write her book this way! Of course it doesn't ? after all > > there are loads of books that do. > > All I am saying is that she > > *didn't* write it this way. In your own way, you actually said so > too. > > Davenclaw: > The timelines don't fall apart by removing the book context. There > is just a timeline that must have been there if time travel works > the way it is described in her book, which she never realized and > never wrote. The single timeline theory is nonsensical because it > requires the future to take place before the past, ALWAYS, even > before time traveling takes place, and canon explicitly states that > traveling in time can change events, which I think necessitates > multiple timelines. JLV: An event at 10pm-to-the-clock in Hogwarts can affect one at 9pm-to- the-clock. This what I call `backwards causation'. It can happen because Harry was affected by something at 10pm-to-the-clock, say he heard the first-time-to-him the clock struck ten. Two-hours-later-to- Harry he may have heard the clock strike nine, but he had a memory of the clock striking ten. The clock striking ten was the cause of this memory. This future-to-the-clock event is a past-to-Harry event. There is no inconsistency here. There is just a necessity for relating past and future to the individuals involved to remove the ambiguity. Alternatively, you could propose a `multiple timelines' theory, in which events happen and then are rewritten, and memories are modified to `change' them to what they should be as if the new events did indeed happen that way the `first time round'. > Davenclaw: > It's just that after the time traveling takes place all > knowledge of pre-time-traveling events is lost. Almost as if those events really did happen that way all along. I really think this reduces to the single-timeline theory. Why imagine events happened that JKR "never wrote"? > > JLV: > > All I can say is that I really do think that JKR is writing from > the > > single-timeline perspective. I support this by again saying that > > there is *only one* timeline given in the books. > > Davenclaw: > Your "support" is simply JKR's mistake or ommission. She makes it > clear that traveling in time can change past events but she > apparently didn't consider what the events were before Harry went > and saved himself. JLV: So you are allowed to think JKR made a mistake, but anyone who says she might possibly have made a mistake when she wrote Hermione's speech is really saying that "McGonagal is a hysterical liar" and creating fake canon? > > JLV: > > It is explicitly stated > > that magic cannot bring people back to life. The dual-timeline > theory > > allows this to happen! > > Davenclaw: > Harry and Hermione's time travel saved Sirius and Buckbeak, so > apparently this is an exception. JLV: In the single-timeline view, Buckbeak never died. It is your view that makes the exception. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 15:48:32 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:48:32 -0000 Subject: Snape knows Harry's Chosen One? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137410 Pippin Wrote: > Snape doesn't know the full > contents of the prophecy. Well we know that Snape only told Voldemort half the prophecy but the only evidence we have that he only head half is Snape's word and that doesn't count for much at the moment. I think Snape heard every word of the Prophecy but only told Voldemort half, he knew it would goad him into attacking the infant and he knew it would be disastrous for Voldemort to do so. I believe Snape's long term plan has always been to eliminate the 2 wizards that stood in way of his dream of world domination, Dumbledore and Voldemort. One down one to go. Eggplant From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Fri Aug 12 15:54:36 2005 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:54:36 -0000 Subject: No Snape is not evil!!!!!(was:It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote:> > I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore reluctantly > on Dumbledore's orders and at heart Snape is really a pussycat theory. > I believe any one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea. > Mario: I am sorry, but none of your arguments "hold water" (is that the right English expression?): > 1) Snape already had Voldemort's trust, we are told in chapter 2 that > he is the Dark Lord's closest adviser and he already knows of the Top > Secret plan to kill Dumbledore, there was no need for the Order of the > Phoenix to lose their most powerful wizard for Voldemort to trust him. Mario: He did not already have LV's trust. The all pretend to be his closest advisor. DD said that no one gets close to LV. Snape only pretended to know of LV's plan. He never actually said anything, not to Narcissa, not to Draco. We only ever saw him ask Draco what was the plan. We never witnessed a conversation where Snape said anything about killing DD. > > 2) It doesn't matter if Snape knows of Voldemort's plans now because > he can't tell anyone, nobody in the OotP would believe him, in fact > they'd kill him on sight before he could even open his mouth. > Mario: He does not need to know of LV's plan. The plan is clear, take the world over. Harry only needs to know what and where the horcruxes are. Snape NOW has LV's confidence, and will find out what/where they are, and he will let Harry know either by pretending to be R.A.B. or by showing Harry a DD memory in the pensieve that will show DD asking Snape to kill him.... for that specific purpose of getting ultra- close to LV (agin to find out where the Horcruxes are...). > 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he murdered > Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor. Mario: I do not have the book with me, but I do not remember any "enjoyment" from Snape (even if English is not my first language, I am sure it is not a misunderstanding of a word on my part). > > 4) I do not believe Dumbledore would ask anyone to become a murderer. Mario: He did not ask anyone for murder. He is not dead. He changed into a bumblebee when his body was hidden behind the fire "apparently birning", and he flew away right before the tomb appeared. AND he sent a secret message using his phoenix Patronus at the same time.... We just have to figure out to who... > > 5) If Dumbledore did have some sort of wacky plan he would have to be > brain dead dumb not to tell Harry about it; he must know that after > Harry saw him be murdered by Snape he would never rest until Snape was > dead, or Harry was. > > It's time for all you Snape lovers to realize that it's over, the fat > lady has sung and Snape is much more than just unpleasant, he's evil. > Mario: He did not tell Harry, because Harry does his best thinking and fighting when he is on his own... He only needs hints (which will come from Snape) and his instincts lead him. Throughout the first 6 books, he always did the most important stuff by himself (not that he did not get help, but it was more accessory than anything else... and he performed more when he actually was "on his own", even if someone was besides him). > Eggplant From lklink at nycap.rr.com Fri Aug 12 12:54:45 2005 From: lklink at nycap.rr.com (snowfire169) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:54:45 -0000 Subject: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? AND Filch Squib or Muggle??? then. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137412 Corgi: > I think the greatest piece of evidence for determining whether a > person is a squib or muggle is their animals. Look at Filch. He's > got a cat that can pratically summon him when she spots students around. > [...] > My supportive evidence is the only other squib we're intimate with > in the series, which is Mrs. Figg. > [..] >Anyone who has had the opportunity to own a cat knows that the > beasts don't follow orders well. On JKR's website, in the Extras section, she states that Mrs. Figg "does a roaring trade in cross-bred cats and Kneazles", so her cats are quite a bit more intelligent than regular cats. Mrs. Norris could well be one of those, also. Snowfire From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 16:13:50 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:13:50 -0000 Subject: Harry as a natural legilimens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137413 I hadn't thought of Harry as a natural Legilimens but the idea does have some merit. It would explain how Harry knew intuitively that Draco was doing something very important and very sinister in The Room Of Requirements, and that Death Eaters were likely going to attack the school when Harry and Dumbledore were away, and that Snape was untrustworthy and dangerous. Even a powerful wizard like Dumbledore could not see none of these things but Harry was right and Dumbledore wrong. Eggplant From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 16:34:59 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:34:59 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137414 Carol: > It seems patently obvious to me that the character who performs > magic "quite late in life" is not the middle-aged Petunia or the > very young Merope but the elderly Mrs. Figg, whom we've already > seen in somewhat desperate circumstances defending Harry, and who, I > think, will pick up his wand when it's been knocked out of his > hand and point it at a Death Eater. jujube: > A well-reasoned, well-supported idea (as usual from Carol) which is > not entirely convincing to me. ;-) See, this is much too "deus ex > machina" for me, and IMO out of keeping with JKR's plotting style, > which doesn't cheat like that. But if the option of thinking it is > Merope were not on the table, this is the most sensible option in > accordance with the canon. Jen: I'm confused how Merope would still be an option as the late- bloomer, from the canon we have (and please tell me if I've misunderstood your comment above). First canon point is the quote you provided from JKR: Q: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? JKR: No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. ************* Jen again: 'Quite late in life', especially in the WW, is pretty definitive. We're talking about an older person who has *never* performed magic before the moment they do so in 'desperate circumstances'. When we consider Merope, she doesn't qualify in either way as the person JKR is talking about. For one, we see Merope perform magic: "Merope....drew her wand from her wand shakily from her pocket, pointed it at the pot, and muttered a hasty, inaudible spell that caused the pot to shoot across the floor away from her, hit the opposite wall, and crack in two." (chap. 10, p. 205, US). Also, at the moment Merope performs this magic she is most definitely in an abusive circumstance which I'm sure she feels desperate about, but she is not in the required 'desperate circumstance' JKR mentions. And after the Gaunt men are carted off to Azkaban and Merope is alone, she blossoms into her magical powers because she is no longer in an abusive and degrading environment. So she is not in 'desperate circumstances' at that point either, nor is it her first time to perform magic. (I believe, and this is opinion from the way Merope and Marvolo behave together, that the event with the pot is probably an almost daily occurrence of fear and intimidation on Marvolo's part.I do not think that was Merope's one and only example of performing magic in her lifetime so far). I feel these two events taken together are an extremely valid canon argument against Merope being the late-bloomer JKR referred to. Please help me understand where you are coming from with your theory about Merope. Jen From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 15:08:37 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:08:37 -0000 Subject: The Screaming Man WAS Re: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > How about: Screaming man is not Snape's father. It's his > *grandfather*, screaming at his mother. Screaming at her for > bringing this little half-blood into the family, to the shame of all > pure-blooded Prince's everywhere. Ceridwen: Oh, yes, the comeuppance for having been rebellious. >Pip!Squeak: > Remember Sirius's mother's portrait, talking about half-bloods > as 'half-breeds'? And yet Harry assumes that 'half-blood Prince' is > a grand sounding title. I don't think it is; not in the Prince > family, and not in Slytherin House. Suppose 'half-blood Prince' was > an insult that Snape was being defiant about? Ceridwen: Harry does make a lot of assumptions. Prince, sure, not knowing that it was a name until the end, could come off as arrigant. But never 'half-blood'. I think the (erroneous) idea of royalty eclipsed the slur. >Pip!Squeak: > The brilliant notes in this book belong to - the half-blood Prince. > That'll show everyone who calls me that! Ceridwen (being absurd): Yeah, you wanna piece of me? ;) Ceridwen. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 17:03:13 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:03:13 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil ( was: No Snape is not evil!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137416 "oiramertip" wrote: > He did not already have LV's trust. > The all pretend to be his closest > advisor. Snape didn't say that, Draco's mother said it, and if she didn't believe it why was she there asking for help? > Snape only pretended to know of LV's plan. So Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to help the plan when he didn't even know what he was vowing to do? That's ridiculous. > He did not ask anyone for murder. > He is not dead. I thought you said Snape would be "showing Harry a DD memory in the pensieve that will show DD asking Snape to kill him.... for that specific purpose of getting ultra- close to LV" And anyway, don't you realize how dreadful the next book will be if it turns out Dumbledore's death was just a silly hoax? > He did not tell Harry, because Harry > does his best thinking and > fighting when he is on his own. Because Dumbledore did not tell Harry this means Harry hates Snape at least as much as he hates Voldemort and may place an even higher priority on killing him. If Harry and Snape are really on the same side but they are trying to kill each other this would be a blunder of cosmic proportions on Dumbledore's part. Serious died because Dumbledore kept Harry in the dark about something, I don't think he's make the same mistake again. Eggplant From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Aug 12 17:00:03 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:00:03 -0000 Subject: Harry is right WAS:Draco's absence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137417 davenclaw wrote: > > If it turns out that he is wrong about Snape, that would go > against this major theme of HBP; however this could be his last > obstacle to maturity. If Snape presents a believable explanation > of events and perhaps proves his loyalty to DD instead of the DEs, > it could be a final hurdle that Harry has to overcome, trusting > Snape despite his feelings about him, and this decision could pave > the way to his victory. I think you are onto something here, davenclaw. I think it is going to be very hard to say in one book "Harry was right" and in the next "Harry was wrong" without undercutting the series' main character. I don't know what we'll discover about Snape, but if it turns out to be just a "Harry was wrong again" type of answer, I think JKR will have mangled her own foot. I see what you're saying about the second possibility. I certainly hope that this isn't the case, as I would find it preachy and insipid beyond stomaching. Unfortunately, HBP did show that JKR isn't very good when it comes to doing emotional and psychological reactions in a believable and/or realistic way, so - silly and poorly written as it would be - it may well turn out along those lines. Lupinlore From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Fri Aug 12 17:13:34 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:13:34 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137418 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore reluctantly > on Dumbledore's orders and at heart Snape is really a pussycat theory. > I believe any one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea. > > 1) Snape already had Voldemort's trust, we are told in chapter 2 that > he is the Dark Lord's closest adviser and he already knows of the Top > Secret plan to kill Dumbledore, there was no need for the Order of the > Phoenix to lose their most powerful wizard for Voldemort to trust him. I think it is Narcissa's perception that LV trusts Snape. Clearly, Bellatrix does not, and LV seems to have Wormtail at Snape's house to spy on him (for example, listening at doors). Snape could be bluffing when he states he already knows of the plan. > 2) It doesn't matter if Snape knows of Voldemort's plans now because > he can't tell anyone, nobody in the OotP would believe him, in fact > they'd kill him on sight before he could even open his mouth. Yes, perhaps there is some other sort of indirect way he could pass Harry information without his knowing the source. > 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he murdered > Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor. I would think that a look of hatred and revulsion does not indicate enjoyment. I think Snape is a very good actor, I think one would need to be to be an accomplished Occlumens and to actually be able to tell lies in the presence of LV, which I think that Snape's comments in OOTP indicates he has done successfully. > 4) I do not believe Dumbledore would ask anyone to become a murderer. However, I could see Dumbledore stating something to the effect that if there is a choice to make between his own life and choosing to protect the life and soul of his students, to do the latter. > 5) If Dumbledore did have some sort of wacky plan he would have to be > brain dead dumb not to tell Harry about it; he must know that after > Harry saw him be murdered by Snape he would never rest until Snape was > dead, or Harry was. I think that it is a stretch to think that DD had a plan for Snape to kill him in front of Harry. I don't think that DD would want to increase Harry's already existing hatred of Snape, which is exactly what has happened. I think that DD was surprised about the Death Eaters in the tower, as was Snape, but am willing to believe that DD may have pleaded with Snape to save Draco. I also think, based on DD's hesitance, that there is some other reason he trusted Snape, but that Harry is a very poor Occlumens, and that if Harry knew, and LV got access to this memory it might endanger Snape. > It's time for all you Snape lovers to realize that it's over, the fat > lady has sung and Snape is much more than just unpleasant, he's evil. There have been enough instances in this series of things being not as they seem to leave me wondering. I can make convincing arguments for ESE!Snape, Good!Snape, or TW!Snape, so I am withholding judgement until book 7 actually comes out. But I do love speculating, and am not convinced Snape is totally evil (though he is certainly not a "nice" guy) just because of what we saw on the tower. If someone walked in on Harry pouring green potion down DD's protesting throat in the cave, they might get the wrong idea. Whatever Snape is up to, I think there is more here going on than we know at this point. Cheryl From jjjjjulie at aol.com Fri Aug 12 17:20:26 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:20:26 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: I'm confused how Merope would still be an option as the late- > bloomer, from the canon we have (and please tell me if I've > misunderstood your comment above). > > First canon point is the quote you provided from JKR: > Q: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students > in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather > than as children? > > JKR: No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows > itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who > does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in > life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. > ************* > > Jen again: 'Quite late in life', especially in the WW, is pretty > definitive. We're talking about an older person who has *never* > performed magic before the moment they do so in 'desperate > circumstances'. Are we? JKR's comment seems to indicate, to me, showing ability after age 11, the cutoff point, could also be considered late in life. There are two different time schemes I guess we are working with. One is chronological age, and yes, someone who is 18 is not "late in life" (in either the Muggle or the wizarding world!). The other is time frame in which magic shows itself. In that case, magic showing itself a nearly decade after the cutoff point could indeed be considered "later in life". All things are relative. > When we consider Merope, she doesn't qualify in either > way as the person JKR is talking about. > > For one, we see Merope perform magic: "Merope....drew her wand from > her wand shakily from her pocket, pointed it at the pot, and > muttered a hasty, inaudible spell that caused the pot to shoot > across the floor away from her, hit the opposite wall, and crack in > two." (chap. 10, p. 205, US). > > Also, at the moment Merope performs this magic she is most > definitely in an abusive circumstance which I'm sure she feels > desperate about, but she is not in the required 'desperate > circumstance' JKR mentions. Agreed, and that was not what I was referring to. > And after the Gaunt men are carted off to Azkaban and Merope is > alone, she blossoms into her magical powers because she is no > longer in an abusive and degrading environment. So she is not > in 'desperate circumstances' at that point either, nor is it her I would not agree that the absence of her father and brother ipso facto removes the desperation from her life. They were going to get out of Azkaban, and when they came back they were going to be even worse, and her life was going to be even worse. That, to me, seems like the kind of survival situation where someone might produce real, usable, magic as a means to escape, while they had the chance. > first time to perform magic. (I believe, and this is opinion from > the way Merope and Marvolo behave together, that the event with the > pot is probably an almost daily occurrence of fear and intimidation > on Marvolo's part.I do not think that was Merope's one and only > example of performing magic in her lifetime so far). Fair enough. Now juxtapose that with these comments from Marvolo (the first one coming a couple of paragraphs after what you quoted): ------------------- Gaunt looked for a moment as though he was going to shout at Ogden, but seemed to think better of it: Instead, he jeered at his daughter, "Lucky the nice man from the Ministry's here, isn't it? Perhaps he'll take you off my hands, perhaps he doesn't mind dirty Squibs. . . ." ------------------ and then this one: ------------------- Merope shook her head frantically, pressing herself into the wall, apparently unable to speak. "But I got him, Father!" cackled Morfin. "I got him as he went by and he didn't look so pretty with hives all over him, did he, Merope?" "You disgusting little Squib, you filthy little blood traitor!" roared Gaunt, losing control, and his hands closed around his daughter's throat. ------------------- Marvolo is many horrible things, but the things he tells us in the scene we see are true: he is the descendant of Salazar Slytherin, that is the ring of Slytherin and that is the Slytherin locket. Should we doubt his characterization of his daughter? Also, the Lexicon says Squibs have "such a low level of magical power that they are essentially unable to do any magic at all." "A low level of magical power" is not the same as no magical power at atll. While Merope does do some magic, it is completely useless magic, and probably the little she can do is a function of the extremely powerful wizarding skills that are in her family (for I believe Marvolo and Morfin, as disgusting as they are, are powerful wizards). >From a more literary point of view: JKR isn't really given to cheap stunts in the books. I can't see an episode in Book 7 where someone suddenly gets superhuman powers to turn the tide. All of Harry's victories have come as a result of study and/or practice, coupled with his bravery. Merope's real magic is, IMO, the true turning point of the long story we are told in this series, and once I read HBP I just had a gut feeling (the same kind of feeling I did when I figured out Voldemort's plan for the Horcruxes [although, of course, I didn't know they would be called that. ;-)]) that that quote referred to Merope. I guess we'll find out for sure in 2 years. ;-) jujube From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Fri Aug 12 15:22:14 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:22:14 -0000 Subject: Harry is right WAS:Draco's absence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137420 davenclaw wrote: > I found this interesting too; a few weeks ago I wrote that I felt this > was a possible clue that Snape really is evil, because a significant > aspect of this book is that Harry is right despite the doubts of > others. Ceridwen, Not meaining to single out one post intentionally, but needing to ask this: I'm not too up on the JKR interviews, but didn't someone mention her saying that books 6&7 are more like two halves of the same book? *If* so, then Harry would be expected to come out looking right in 'part 1', as he does in all the other books. I was thoroughly convinced all through PS/SS that Snape was the villain, that it would be Snape in with the mirror, and to find Quirrell in there instead was, frankly, a surprise. Finding 'Quirrellmort' was even more of a surprise, but explained away a some reasons Harry had for mistrusting Snape. So, *if* this is more of a part 1 to a two-part climax, then wouldn't Harry be expected to be 'shown' how right he is? This would be more of an even longer final book than GoF or OotP. (Though I do agree with the idea that DD has to be alive, or it will definitely be the dock for Snape, no matter what the reasons) I now return everyone to their scheduled programs. Ceridwen. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 12 17:49:18 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:49:18 -0000 Subject: The Screaming Man WAS Re: Irma Pince is Snape's mother in disguise? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137421 Pip!Squeak wrote: > How about: Screaming man is not Snape's father. It's his > *grandfather*, screaming at his mother. Screaming at her for > bringing this little half-blood into the family, to the shame of all > pure-blooded Prince's everywhere. Potioncat: I want to quickly say that Carol is also convinced the man is Mr. Prince. It's very hard to picture a Muggle screaming at a witch. So unless Tobias had Eileen under some sort of magical agreement (as is sometimes seen in real world folklore) I don't think it's Tobias either. But there are some impediments to its being Papa Prince. The wedding and the child's birth were both announced in the "Daily Prophet". It doesn't look as if Eileen was in hiding or married in secret. It's been years! Why is he yelling now? Something must have changed. So, perhaps either Tobias has died, or the Snape marriage has failed and Eileen wants to move back in with her young son, or something has happened to the Prince family. Now, if Severus is the little Half Blood grandson and is one of many cousins, he could have been picked on. But if I'm correct, Eileen was the only Prince that Hermione found at Hogwarts. Is she the last one? So does that make Snape the last of the Prince family? Did his grandfather resent his Muggle heritage? What do you suppose happened to make this little Half-blood so reject his Muggle side and dive so deeply into dark arts? We have this timeline, based on OoP and HBP: 1. Eileen is captain of inter-school Gobstone team (looks 15) 2. Eileen marries Muggle Snape 3. Eileen has baby (around 30 years old) 4. Screaming Man, Cowering Woman (neither described as to age or type of clothing) 5. Boy on bucking broom 6. ? Potions book with Half-Blood Prince 7. ? Sullen teen kills flies (Spinner's End?) 16 oe 17 8. Snape uses Spinner's End for DE related work. Appears to live there. Wormy has a bedroom there. My current guess is that Spinner's End is his father's home; Eileen and Severus moved out; Snape was back at Spinner's End the summer between 5th and 6th years or between 6th and 7th years. (Fly killing) Was he visiting his father? Had his father died and left him the house? But I still don't know why the man was yelling. Theory two. The man is Tobias. He was watching "Bewitched" and as usual, Sevi came too close to the TV and the thing exploded. "Can't a hardworking man even watch TV in peace?" And a bit of real silliness: (Tobias is the last name of the actor who played the kindly neighbor Mr. Kravitz on "Bewitched".) Potioncat From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 17:49:20 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:49:20 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137422 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > JLV: > 6pm takes place before 10pm *to the clock*, You know full well that I'm not just talking about what clock says. I'm talking about the actual moment in time. > You also assume that "6-10pm happens before > 10pm changes what happened at 6pm" which is begging the question. I didn't think that assuming that time occurs sequentially was begging the question, but maybe it is. Are you saying that 10pm has already happened at 6pm, and this was ALWAYS the case? > You also miss, throughout your response, the crucial distinction > between `affect' and `change'. These words do not mean the same > thing. In the context of this discussion, `affect' means `be a cause > of' and `change' means `to stop being one way and start being > another'. The only way that time traveling can cause something to happen without it being a change is if you assume that the future has already occured before the past is actually lived. This is the view of time that someone else expressed, that all time pre-exists and we are just working through it sequentially. To use your words, your assertion is "begging the question." > JLV: > Actually, at 9.15pm-to-the-clock he *has* time travelled in a sense, > because there are two Harrys around. It must have happened, because > the effect is there. This certainly doesn't contradict what I said. As I said, we are witnessing altered events, which now include the time traveling Harry. But until the time comes where he time-travels, there is only one Harry. This changes when he time travels. > JLV: > I did no such thing. I said `affect'. You read `change'. Please bear > the distinction I have made in mind because there is a lot of > potential ambiguity here. Maybe you can explain to me how one can experience the effects of a decision that hasn't been made yet. > > Davenclaw: > > I don't see the logical inconsistency with a dual-timeline theory. > > JLV: > Okay, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Maybe you can explain it. I must have missed it. > > Davenclaw: > > but I also don't see how you can fail to see the huge problem with > > the single timeline theory. 9pm can't come before 6pm, so 6-9pm > > must take place before time traveling occurs, meaning that there > is > > a timeline without a time traveler before there is a timeline with > a > > time traveler. > > JLV: > That simply isn't true. Remember 6pm takes place before 10pm *to the > clock*, but to TT!Harry 10pm-to-the-clock on Hogwart's wall takes > place twice, once earlier-to-Harry and once later-to-Harry. I'm not concerned with TT!Harry experiencing the same clock time twice. I'm concerned with the original Harry experiencing the affects of time-travel before he has traveled in time. Before he ever sits up in that hospital room, he is doing other things. These things happen before he is in the hospital room, before he and Hermione time-turn. How can things that he does before time traveling ALWAYS have been part of the timeline, even when that time hasn't occured yet? Before he time-travels, at 7pm, 10pm has never been reached, there is no time traveler. > JLV: > Ouch. Is fake canon an oxymoron? Anyway, I didn't say > that "McGonagal is a hysterical liar". Those are your words. Please > don't put words in my mouth. They are a description of an explanation that someone provided to explain why she would say that the past can be changed when really it can't. I'm not sure if it was you, but I believe you accepted it. If not, you haven't explained how your theory can be reconciled with this aspect of canon. > JLV: > I'm not sure what you mean. I think you've missed my point. Remember > the `change'/'affect' distinction. There is only a distinction between "change/affect" in this context if you assume that the future has already happened before it is experienced sequentially, which is begging the question. > JLV: > An event at 10pm-to-the-clock in Hogwarts can affect one at 9pm-to- > the-clock. Yes, but not until 10pm is reached, which first requires a 9pm to have occurred without the influence of events at 10pm. The loop from 10pm back to 9pm first requires progression from 9pm to 10pm without a loop. > Alternatively, you could propose a `multiple timelines' theory, in > which events happen and then are rewritten, and memories are > modified to `change' them to what they should be as if the new > events did indeed happen that way the `first time round'. > > > Davenclaw: > > It's just that after the time traveling takes place all > > knowledge of pre-time-traveling events is lost. > > Almost as if those events really did happen that way all along. I > really think this reduces to the single-timeline theory. Why imagine > events happened that JKR "never wrote"? Yes, as I have said the affect on everyone's memory would be that the altered events are the only ones they are aware of. The problem comes with explaining how Harry was saved by the dementors before his memory of the original events was replaced with a memory of him saving himself from dementors. The problem that then arises is, before TT!Harry ever saved himself from dementors, he would have had a memory of the original events, so it's not clear why he would think he needed to save himself if he knew he had already been saved... maybe he saved the life of the person who had saved him originally? I never said my theory wasn't problematic, but the problems with my theory lie in JKR's failure to realize and write about them. But in my opinion this is better than the problem of requiring us to think of all events in time being pre-destined but then only experienced after the fact, which is necessary for your theory to work. > JLV: > So you are allowed to think JKR made a mistake, but anyone who says > she might possibly have made a mistake when she wrote Hermione's > speech is really saying that "McGonagal is a hysterical liar" and > creating fake canon? Yes, the problem comes with reconciling the theory with the facts presented in the book. Per my theory, the facts in the book are not contradicted, but there must have been other events which are not written about and probably never conceived of, which is what I am complaining about. Your theory requires us to completely dismiss explanations of time travel that were actually given in order to assert that she was writing from that perspective. Perhaps the problem boils down to the fact that she had a "single timeline theory" in mind but wrote explanations that contradicted this theory. What's more, this theory requires not just a particular theory of time *travel*, but of the nature of time itself - it requires us to consider time as having already taken place before it is experienced, and perhaps others find this theory more plausible than I do. - davenclaw From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Aug 12 17:52:30 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:52:30 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137423 --- eggplant wrote: > I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore > reluctantly on Dumbledore's orders ... theory. I believe any > one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea. OK, for purposes of responding then, I take it we can hypothesize that Dumbledore and Snape had a firm plan (possibly conditioned on events that came into actuality by the time of the tower scene) that Snape would finish off Dumbledore, thereby cementing his place in Voldemort's inner circle for some as-yet-unknown higher purpose. That is, I believe, the hypothetical that you are proposing to torpedo. On to your objections, then: > 1) Snape already had Voldemort's trust, we are told in > chapter 2 that he is the Dark Lord's closest adviser and he > already knows of the Top Secret plan to kill Dumbledore, > there was no need for the Order of the Phoenix to lose their > most powerful wizard for Voldemort to trust him. Several responses: 1) As others have already pointed out, it's pretty hard to know whom Voldemort really trusts. Just because Draco and his mom think Snape is the most trusted doesn't mean it's so. 2) Trust is a commodity, not an on-off state. Voldemort may have some trust in Snape, but he must also have doubts about him and his possible loyalty to Dumbledore (indeed, if Snape is to be believed, Voldemort has expressed all of the same doubts that Bellatrix voices at Spinner's End). Publicly murdering Dumbledore ought to go a long way toward dispelling the remaining doubts. 3) You are fighting the hypothetical, which assumes that Snape would only kill Dumbledore if it actually became necessary. Even if Snape had Voldemort's trust before the confrontation on the tower, that trust was 100% at risk once Snape walked up those stairs and took in the scene. If Snape had obstructed Voldemort's plan to kill Dumbledore, rather than aiding it, he'd have raised a huge new question about his loyalty. > 2) It doesn't matter if Snape knows of Voldemort's plans > now because he can't tell anyone, nobody in the OotP would > believe him, in fact they'd kill him on sight before he could > even open his mouth. 1) You assume that the only use for Snape is to pass information on Voldemort's plans, but there are many uses for double-agents other than molework. Dumbledore may have thought Snape could (subtly or unsubtly) interfere with Voldemort's plans from within his inner circle. 2) You also assume that the Order's current lack of trust in Snape cannot be remedied. That underestimates both Dumbledore and Snape. a) If Dumbledore had a plan that requires the Order to trust Snape, he presumably has many methods at his disposal for providing a message from "beyond the grave" -- Pensieve, suicide note, some form of "recorded" message, etc. etc. b) Snape has already shown he is pretty good at restoring others' trust in him. He managed to simultaneously get the two most powerful wizards of his time (and apparently two of the most accomplished Legilimenses ever) to believe diametrically opposite stories concerning his loyalty in a struggle that means everything to both of them. I do think Harry will have trouble ever believing him because of his personal animus, but I don't see it as at all out of the question that Snape could convince someone more analytical, like McGonagall or Hermione, that he was simply doing what was best for everyone. 3) Even if Snape's only use were to pass information and even if he had no inherent credibility, information can still be useful even if you don't believe its source -- even if the information only gives you one more thing to be on guard against, you are much less likely to be off-guard after hearing the information from someone you don't trust than you would be without hearing it at all. > 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he > murdered Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor. 1) Snape *is* that good an actor. See 2(b) above. 2) We saw the scene through Harry's eyes, which have been known to deceive, particularly where Snape is concerned. 3) Even in Harry's eyes, Snape didn't look happy; he exuded "revulsion and hatred." It's already been observed that those emotions could have been a reaction to what Dumbledore was asking him to do rather than a reaction to the man himself. > 4) I do not believe Dumbledore would ask anyone to become > a murderer. 1) Perhaps you underestimate Dumbledore's commitment to winning the war against Voldemort. 2) If the hypothesis you are attacking is correct, Dumbledore didn't ask Snape to become a "murderer" because once he asked him the killing would not have been murder. I'm oversimplifying the morality here, and I'm not trying to start a debate about the ethics of mercy killing, assisted suicide, etc., but I think almost everyone would agree that there is a moral distinction between asking someone to kill you and asking them to kill someone else. 3) The morality of the hypothetical plan is even further complicated by Snape's vow to Narcissa. Suppose the request Dumbledore made was simply "if it comes down to killing me or breaking your vow (and dying yourself), I insist that you kill me." Essentially, the request was no different from the one Dumbledore warned Harry he might make of him: "If I tell you to leave me, and save yourself, you will do as I tell you?" (HBP, ch. 25). 4) As others have observed, the request also parallels rather neatly with the scene in the cave where Dumbledore insists that Harry pour the potion down his throat even though they both know it is probably some kind of poison. > 5) If Dumbledore did have some sort of wacky plan he would > have to be brain dead dumb not to tell Harry about it; he > must know that after Harry saw him be murdered by Snape he > would never rest until Snape was dead, or Harry was. 1) I agree that it is difficult to understand why Dumbledore would have positioned Harry to watch this scene. I've chronicled in another post (#136067) a number of possible reasons, ranging from simple lack of a better alternative, to the need for Harry to see Draco's change of heart, to a desire to harden Harry for the final pursuit of Voldemort. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136067 2) Harry's own words refute your theory about his reaction. He does not say he won't rest until Snape is dead. He says he won't rest until *Voldemort* is dead, and if Snape gets in his way, so much the worse for Snape. Maybe Harry has been further poisoned against Snape -- maybe he already hated and mistrusted Snape so much that there is little incremental impact on him -- but either way, watching the scene on the tower did not distract Harry from his central mission against Voldemort. -- Matt From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 12 18:07:33 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:07:33 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neri's old theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137424 Ladyljd: > Perhaps, but it could be the beginning of discusion of why Snape was > arrogant enough to believe that Potter would just trust him to take > care of the problem. > > He could also have trusted Potter to handle himself with Umbridge in > the Forbidden Forest while he dealt with the Sirius problem. houyhnhnm: But Snape has no reason to believe there really *is* a Sirius problem. He has known since the occlumency lessons that Voldemort is accessing Harry's mind. "And he might make me try and do things?" asked Harry. "Sir," he added hurriedly. "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. (OotP, AE, p. 533) He also has five years experience of Harry's tendency to take matters into his own hands, but how could Harry possibly get to London with no broom, no ability yet to apparate. Even Harry would not have thought of using thestrals if Luna hadn't suggested it. Snape has no reason to think there is a problem until enough time has passed with no one returning from the forest. From annemflynn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 16:51:38 2005 From: annemflynn at yahoo.com (annemflynn) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:51:38 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137425 "another_potter_fan" wrote: > Anyway, here's my theory: DD knew someone was trying to kill him. DD > knew he could only trust Snape, so he allowed Snape to use the AK > curse, but WITHOUT the intent to kill DD (again, you have to mean > it). By faking his death, DD accomplishes several key points: 1) LV > lets down his guard, and my even come into the open; 2) DD is no > longer tied to the school, but is free to pursue the remaining > Horcruxes; 3) Since both Harry and DD have left the school, LV would > no longer be interested in penetrating the school, thus leaving the > remaining students safer (subject to debate since DD is no longer > protecting them, but DD shows a lot of trust in his friends). This is also my first post. Hopefully, I won't get eaten alive... I too think DD faked his own death. The first potion Harry made successfully with the assistance of the HBP was Draught of the Living Dead, which is, I believe, what DD drank in the cave. Snape looked at DD for a split second on the tower before doing the AV curse. I think : We are seeing more and more that Snape is a pretty powerful wizard. We already know that he is quite the accomplished Leglilmens and Occlumens, as is DD, which Malfoy is not and would thus miss this whole transaction. If DD didn't hide his thoughts at that moment, he could have conveyed to Snape that he drank the Draught of the Living Dead. Snape, not only as potions master, but also a DADA instructor would have known how to react to that. JKR spent a lot of time on silent spells in this book. I think that's the loophole. If he didn't mean the AV curse and did a silent spell at the same...It could be my grief talking though. I think we'll be seeing shades of Romeo and Juliet here. Plus, there's the only Phoenix thing DD has going. I mean, there's got to be something to that. Again, it could be my grief talking... I still think Snape is on the side of good. None of his curses hit Harry. I have full confidence in Snape's dueling ability to know that had he wanted to hit his mark, he would. He had the chance to take Harry prisoner for LV, but didn't. I also think that Harry will return to Hogwarts his final year to look for the Gryffindor and Ravenclaw horcruxes. I don't think his relationship with Ginny is over either. If Harry can't get rid of Ron and Hermione as friends, Ginny will be damned if she lets him do it to her, too. LV could just as easily make off with Ron or Herminone and get the same reaction from Harry as he would if he took Ginny. Anyway, that's what I think... Annemflynn. From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Aug 12 18:25:22 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:25:22 -0000 Subject: Marriage at Hogwarts & inthe WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prep0strus" wrote: > > Thinking about all the relationships that get discussed, it's > interesting to note how few 'adult' relationships we get to see. > Molly & Arthur's marriage is the only one we get to see in any detail > in the wizarding world (which probably influences the aggressive > discussions about shipping, and marriage, since the only real > comparison we have is the Weasely family). We hear about other > student's parents, and get to see a little bit of the Malfoys' > personal life, but in general, marriage (and even rlationships) seem > to remain hidden in JKR's world. This is especially visible at > Hogwarts - I don't see why spouses couldn't live/work at the school, > considering Dumbledore's magnanimous attitude, but as far ass we've > seen, everyone that works there chooses the single life. I don't > think we've seen Mr. McGonnagal at the Christmas feast, or Mrs. > Flitwick stopping by, or Snape heading out for a date (ich). And our > esteemed champion of love, Dumbledore, appears to take the view of a > general, rather than personal love (perhaps indicating that Ginny > won't be the main source of Harry's prime strength). Dumbledore > comes off even more 'jedi-like', since we've never heard of Mrs. > Dumbledore. > > Hagrid alone of the Hogwarts teachers, who is more like an overgrown > child than an authority figure, is involved in a relationship. > Outside the castle, Lupin & Tonks have the other 'adult' relationship. > > What makes the life of a professor so hard that they all choose the > single life? Hogwarts is a big happy family, but it still seems > lonely to me. > > ~Prep0strus You've forgotten Vernon and Petunia Dursley. And folks, this is the 21st, not the 20th century. Could we remember that some women prefer Ms., not all women take their husband's names, and that there are same gender committed couples in the world? Just a polite request.... Susan From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 18:40:04 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:40:04 -0000 Subject: Snape knows Harry's Chosen One? (was:Snape and Neri's old theory.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I think part of Snape's cover is to behave as though he thinks > Voldemort was mistaken and there really is nothing special or > important about Harry. Hence the constant sneering. This begs the eternal question: if Snape knows that Harry is the One, and is special and important, then why hasn't he done a better job at trying to instruct the kid? I suppose the "Snape has to keep up a front to the Slytherins" card comes out now, and the need for Snape to have genuine emotions to hide behind. Even still, that seems like a pretty weak argument to cover all of his behavior. Surely if Snape is the perceptive man we want to give him credit for being, he'd have figured out that Harry's optimum learning style is not Snape's style of singling people out and accusations, but more of a co-operative Lupin style. So why doesn't he do it when there's not public pressure on? It's been proposed in the past that Snape is a damaged creature, genuinely unable to set aside some of his feelings. However, the same interlocutors are usually happy to make the argument that Snape is an excellent spy and actor, and is almost always genuinely in control of his emotions at all time. Which makes the argument look rather like "Snape is always in control of himself and acts with complete planning and deliberation, except when he isn't and doesn't." That seems a little...weak, to me. Thematically, too--Snape is the man obsessed with his past, the past, to a degree that no one else is. I think that Harry thinks less about James in HBP than Snape does, really. So why not make Snape a little more interesting, considerably more human, and allow him his foibles--he may know that Harry is the Chosen One, but he can't necessarily bring himself to genuinely believe it (on a deep level), and has problems acting like it's really true, in either an overt or covert way. -Nora adds, on a tangent, that Dumbledore not being dead would be decidedly lame from the perspective of literary economy, and also make JKR a big honkin' liar about isolating Harry out to face his great obstacles alone (and no one's pointed out places where she's *deliberately lied* to us in interviews yet--Vampire!Snape, anyone?) From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 12 18:42:19 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:42:19 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137428 Valky: >There was/is still >time for Sevvie to make the Loving choice here and sacrifice his >pride for what is right, first though, he has to face the kind of >love that will bear these consequences out on him and allow him to >see what he truly is. houyhnhnm: I think it is killing Dumbledore that will bring about Snape's "Dark Night of the Soul". Not because he did it out of hatred or treachery, but because he didn't. Because he was just being a good Slytherin making the optimal choice. Of course, I also believe that Snape really did turn against Voldemort. He came as far as realizing that unchecked anger, resentment, and self-pity are dangerous. He has never made it to the realization that the dark arts are wrong in and of themselves and that it was his lack of charity, rather than inability to control his anger, that made him easy prey for the Dark Lord. Some here see Snape as being powerfully placed with Voldemort now. I suspect that it will be impossible for Snape to return to Voldemort even to play a role. (I also suspect Voldemort has no further use for him now that he has served his purpose and LV has had his little fun.) From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 18:50:18 2005 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: backstory "explanations" In-Reply-To: <1123859368.3187.49286.m31@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050812185018.37903.qmail@web52411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137429 This backstory is as good as any and for now, may explain some nagging questions....bear with me. And forgive me if any of this has already been advance, as I generally have time to only skim the posts. James, Sirius and Lupin are friends whose common bond is social stigmatization: Lupin is a werewolf and James and Sirius are a gay couple, but not "out", as this isn't yet (late 70's) an accepted social practice. We were fed the Sirius/Lupin red-herring and now I think it's time to put a different spin on it. Snape is shy, defensive, brilliant and talented; but often the brunt of classmates' jokes. Known only to a few, however (maybe only to Dumbledore early on), Snape has been "apprenticed" as a spy during his student days and has assumed the loner role and unattractive physical appearance ( including the long greasy hair) as a protective 'cover' to keep others at a distance. His position may be the result of something that happened earlier to his family - I suspect we'll hear more about Eileen Prince and her muggle husband, Tobias Snape. This would explain DD's faith in him. He is DD's minion. Lily, a genuinely kind and decent person, feels sorry for Snape, and gets to know him through their shared interest and excellence in Potions. She later joins the James/Sirius/Lupin clan - perhaps initially owing to a hoped- for relationship with Lupin that he refuses to allow to go forward (a la Tonks later in life). She and James are true, fast friends for whom she is glad to pose as girlfriend in order to provide a "straight image" while remaining near Lupin. Eventually she sees that Lupin will never relent and her private friendship with Snape grows into something far more adult and personal - much to the distress of James & Sirius, who truly hate him (and he them). Lupin is sadly accepting of it all. After Hogwarts, Lily and Snape continue their relationship, and she learns of his secret career. Lily becomes pregnant. Big worries because Snape - now deeply entrenched in his clandestine work - cannot be known to be involved with this Mudblood who has corssed LV before (we don't yet know how) and the couple fear for their safety as well as that of their child. They turn to Dumbledore... and James. The marriage with Potter is hastily arranged; casual friends and family believing they "had" to get married. It's hoped that this arrangement affords protection for Lily and the baby, provides James and Sirius the chance to be together without revealing their truth to the world and allows Snape, losing his family for the sake of their survival, to continue his dangerous work. This carries out the theme of love being a choice: Lily and Snape sacrifice their love for each other and future together for the love of their child; James puts aside his hatred of Snape in order to protect his "unacceptable " love of Sirius and to show his abiding, albeit platonic love for Lily. Lupin remains silent and supportive of all of the above, both for his love of Lily and for the friends who were his salvation at school. This storyline would also be a great way to redeem many of the characters in Harry's eyes; redemption that may be needed when he learns the truth about his heritage, past events and people's choices. And in a broader sense, may be a social commentary by JKR about prejudice and misguided assumptions about people as individuals and in groups. The plan works for a while, then things go horribly wrong. Lily and James die and Snape, singleminded in his grief and determination to get LV, reluctantly allows Harry to be reared by the Dursleys and continue the entire "Potter charade" because he knows it's the child's only way to survive. Again, a choice. DD knows this and knows that whatever the world may think, Snape is completely trustworthy. Indeed, Snape may be DD's one total confidant and lieutenant. Sirius, wild with grief, acts against Pettigrew. In Azkeban, his hatred for Snape grows because he blames him for James' death. The isolation and terror of years in Azkeban take its toll on his personality, hence his reckless behavior and deliberate taunting of Snape about Harry "Potter": " I am his godfather". I believe Petunia knows the truth too. She has always known Harry's real identity; knows the "horrible boy" and his connection to Lily and knows, as a result of DD's earlier howler, the consequences that would follow if she ever strayed from the established story. Lupin of course, knows the truth too. His wistful recollections of Lily in P of A reveals his continued love for her and his quiet, seeming reluctance to condemn Snape in HBP adds credence to the idea that he knows far more than he lets on. Now, all we need is Book 7 to completely destroy the above ! AF --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elbarad at aol.com Fri Aug 12 18:49:07 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:49:07 -0000 Subject: Snape, You Think I am Your Father In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137430 Cindy wrote: > Missed what? That Snape believes there's a possibility Tom > Riddle could be his father? That Tom Riddle got his mother > pregnant, left her in the lurch and the talented leader Eileen > Prince got a quickie marriage with the first muggle that came >along? A very interesting theory. Although, like you Cindy, I also feel that Tobias Snape is Severus' biological father. After all, the memory acquired from Snape shows a 'dark, hooked-nosed man' (may not be an accurate as I'm not at home and don't have OotP to hand) . Snape has always been described primarily as having a 'hooked-nose', which would indicate to me that Snape's looks were inherited from his father. It had also occured to me that Eileen Prince would have attended Hogwarts at the same time as Tom Riddle. I wonder whether she was in Slytherin house? If so, she would have certainly known who Tom Riddle was and may easily have had a friendship with him. I have a problem with the idea of Tom Riddle actually committing the act that is necesary to produce a pregnacy. He is so ego-centric, and so removed from the baggage of reliance (emotional or practical)upon another human being, that I cannot imagine him allowing himself to experiment with physical relationships in the slightest. I cannot imagine him desiring physical relationships like the rest of us do. Of course, if I am wrong and Tom Riddle did engage in sexual relationships then i guess he would have used sex to manipulate people, to have power over them. Not a nice thought really. Of course, there is the possibilty that he might see it as his responsibility to continue the line of Salazar Slytherin...? Rebecca From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 12 18:59:29 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:59:29 -0000 Subject: backstory "explanations" In-Reply-To: <20050812185018.37903.qmail@web52411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, A Featheringstonehaugh wrote: snip: > After Hogwarts, Lily and Snape continue their relationship, and she learns of his secret career. Lily becomes pregnant. Big worries because Snape - now deeply entrenched in his clandestine work - cannot be known to be involved with this Mudblood who has corssed LV before (we don't yet know how) and the couple fear for their safety as well as that of their child. They turn to Dumbledore... and James. The marriage with Potter is hastily arranged; casual friends and family believing they "had" to get married. It's hoped that this arrangement affords protection for Lily and the baby, provides James and Sirius the chance to be together without revealing their truth to the world and allows Snape, losing his family for the sake of their survival, to continue his dangerous work. > > This carries out the theme of love being a choice: Lily and Snape sacrifice their love for each other and future together for the love of their child; James puts aside his hatred of Snape in order to protect his "unacceptable " love of Sirius and to show his abiding, albeit platonic love for Lily. > > follow if she ever strayed from the established story. Lupin of course, knows the truth too. His wistful recollections of Lily in P of A reveals his continued love for her and his quiet, seeming reluctance to condemn Snape in HBP adds credence to the idea that he knows far more than he lets on. > > Now, all we need is Book 7 to completely destroy the above ! > -end snip I don't think we need book 7 to destroy the above. Harry looks like James - it is repeatly said throughout the series. He doesn't look like Snape. Harry is James & Lily's child, not Snape & Lily's child. colebiancardi From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 19:09:25 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:09:25 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Harry's father. WAS: Re: backstory "explanations" In-Reply-To: <20050812185018.37903.qmail@web52411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137432 A Featheringstonehaugh wrote: > After Hogwarts, Lily and Snape continue their relationship, and she learns of his secret career. Lily becomes pregnant. Big worries because Snape - now deeply entrenched in his clandestine work - cannot be known to be involved with this Mudblood who has corssed LV before (we don't yet know how) and the couple fear for their safety as well as that of their child. They turn to Dumbledore... and James. The marriage with Potter is hastily arranged; casual friends and family believing they "had" to get married. It's hoped that this arrangement affords protection for Lily and the baby, provides James and Sirius the chance to be together without revealing their truth to the world and allows Snape, losing his family for the sake of their survival, to continue his dangerous work. > > Now, all we need is Book 7 to completely destroy the above ! Alla: Please forgive me for snipping most of your post, but I am afraid JKR already destroyed the part of this theory, which makes Harry Snape's child. Here is the question and answer from her website: "Question: Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description Answer No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching much too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. Doesn't everybody Harry meets say 'you look just like your father'? And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin." I think the sentence "James is DEFINITELY Harry's father" answers it, no? Alla, who used to love "Snape as Harry father" fanfiction stories, but who is very happy that such thing is not going to happen in canon. :-) From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 19:09:33 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:09:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] backstory "explanations" In-Reply-To: <20050812185018.37903.qmail@web52411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009d01c59f71$61356fe0$4821f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137433 AF wrote: After Hogwarts, Lily and Snape continue their relationship, and she learns of his secret career. Lily becomes pregnant. Big worries because Snape - now deeply entrenched in his clandestine work - cannot be known to be involved with this Mudblood who has crossed LV before (we don't yet know how) and the couple fear for their safety as well as that of their child. They turn to Dumbledore... and James. The marriage with Potter is hastily arranged; casual friends and family believing they "had" to get married. It's hoped that this arrangement affords protection for Lily and the baby, provides James and Sirius the chance to be together without revealing their truth to the world and allows Snape, losing his family for the sake of their survival, to continue his dangerous work. Sherry responds: Sorry to disappointment you. Here is a very definite quote from JKR's web site. It is in the rumors section, under the rumor Voldemort is Harry's father or grandfather. It speaks just as clearly to your idea of Harry's parentage. Here is the quote. Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching much too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. Doesn't everybody Harry meets say 'you look just like your father'? And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin. Check out www.jkrowling.com Sherry From RoxyElliot at aol.com Fri Aug 12 19:14:47 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:14:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's absence Message-ID: <211.6bf26f5.302e4f27@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137434 In a message dated 8/12/2005 12:50:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, grega126 at aol.com writes: So now that we've read HBP in its entirety and know Draco actually did pay him off, how did Harry know? Was it just a guess? Was it a particulary clever insight on Harry's part? Or, was it some sort of accidental Legimency? Greg Knowing Malfoy as we do I'd say it was a good guess. Certainly it fits in with Malfoy's character, as well as the entire Malfoy family. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 12 19:04:20 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:04:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FCF2B4.2040404@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137435 jjjjjuliep wrote: >First, we don't know for sure that there was any sort of plan between >DD and Snape. There is great ambiguity and a lot of hopeful >thinking. Personally I think the book is much more powerful with the >events as the currently starkly stand: Snape has betrayed the person >who cared for him most in the world. > > I disagree. There are far too many hints to this, such as what Hagrid overheard and the fact that Snape made no 'villain's speech' before killing Dumbldore. The hints that there are some poisons that have no antidotes, the fact that Dumbledore's hand was shriveled, showing he was slowing up and was not a god like some people think. >Second, this was not an either/or situation: it was not as simple as >Snape could either let Draco be a killer or kill Dumbledore. There >is at least one more option: Snape could have elected to break his >Unbreakable Vow, die himself, and let Dumbledore live. If Snape did this, he would die, Dumbledore would die, Draco and his family would die and likely a number of students would die as Snape would not have been there to rush the DEs out afterwards.. Snape knew that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and Dumbledore's time was at an end. Dumbledore was likely dying from that poisoned potion anyways. Despite all the antidotes for poisons, he refused to let Harry drink it. This tells me he knew what it would do. Harry might in fact be the real killer, but Snape just put Dumbledore out of his misery. > >When you could sacrifice yourself for the person who you have >followed and respected for the past 15 years? Yes. > Because Snape is more valuable to the Order at this time then a dying old man whose time had come. His position as a spy will protect Harry far more then some doddering old man. He can now keep Voldemort distracted from what Harry is up to. Better then anyone can. He can continue to protect Draco and his family.. His death would have been a suicide, not a sacrifice as it would NOT have saved Dumbledore anyways. More people would have died instead. Its a war and Snape did what he had to do for the greater good. There was no choice. And besides, Slytherins are not the self sacrificing ones.. Its for Griffindors to throw their lives away for no reason... Like Harry would have if Snape had not saved his butt yet again by keeping the DEs from killing him. > >Whose wishes? We have no hard evidence--yet--that Dumbldore has a >death plan with Snape. > It might have not been directly the plan, but remember, they both know what would happen if Snape didn't go through with it. More people would have died then just Dumbledore. It was not the 'easy way', it was the only and the right way. It will likely torment Snape for the rest of his life that he was manipulated by Voldemort into doing this. Voldemort is not an idiot, he KNEW that Draco's mother would run to Snape for help and knew that Draco would not be able to do the job and that to protect Draco, Snape would have to do it for him. Snape even stated that he felt the Dark Lord meant him to do Draco's job all along, Which means Snape and thus Dumbledore, suspected what would happen and this is why Snape wanted to back out (the overheard convo that Hagrid heard). > >IF he is an undercover agent working for the good. > >At the moment I am not convinced that Snape is working for anyone but >himself. > >jujube > > > > I believe Snape is still working for the Order, but the Order doesn't know all the details of what went on yet. Its not like Dumbledore told the rest of them he was going out to drink a deadly poition and likely didn't confide in them that Snape had to take that vow and would die if he didn't kill him...etc. Its remarkable stupidity on the part of the characters that not a single one that knew about Snape's vow did not realise that Snape would have DIED if he did not kill Dumbledore. One would think that Hermione at least would have thought of it. Harry must have lost some brain cells from too many bludgers to the head to not even think of it himself. Was he calling him a coward for NOT throwing his life away to save a dying old man who was outliving his usefullness to the cause?? Sorry, If I was Snape, as hard as it would have been, I would have done the same thing just to reduce casualties and protect the cause. Dying and having others die, who may be key to winning the war would have been utterly foolish. Jazmyn From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 12 19:19:02 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:19:02 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137436 Eggplant > It's time for all you Snape lovers to realize that it's over, the fat > lady has sung and Snape is much more than just unpleasant, he's evil. houyhnhnm: Is that a command? :-) If one can't convince others by argument, one simply orders them to cease and desist? You seem to have invested a lot of personal hatred in this fictional character. Do we, er, have some *issues* here? From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 19:22:15 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:22:15 -0000 Subject: Snape Haters Hold Your Nose WAS: Harry is right In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137437 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julia" wrote: > > What's more interesting IMO > > is the fact that throughout the whole HBP Harry is right in his > > suspicions about Draco and Snape. He guesses right about Draco's > > involvment with DEs, his Mission, him being in Room of Requirement, > > the attack on Hogwarts etc. He's right. Which is unexpected because > > before that Harry's suspicions were always wrong. wrote: I found this interesting too; a few weeks ago I wrote that I felt this > was a possible clue that Snape really is evil, because a significant > aspect of this book is that Harry is right despite the doubts of > others. This along with his newfound maturity in dealing with his > suspicions suggest to me that JKR is trying to tell us that Harry > understands the situation better than others and can trust his > instincts in a way that he couldn't before, and therefore it would > seem that Snape is truly evil. > > If it turns out that he is wrong about Snape, that would go against > this major theme of HBP; however this could be his last obstacle to > maturity. If Snape presents a believable explanation of events and > perhaps proves his loyalty to DD instead of the DEs, it could be a > final hurdle that Harry has to overcome, trusting Snape despite his > feelings about him, and this decision could pave the way to his > victory. > > - davenclaw In regard to presenting a believable explanation: In post #137345, I wrote about how DD appeared to be revealing secrets to Draco about Snape. He was taking Draco into his confidence, how he trusts Snape, only to hear how he is a foolish old man. In light of this, the fact that Snape took the Unbreakable Vow which puts him directly in opposition to Voldemort's orders, along with the evidence that has been hashed out on this list that appear DD's days were truly numbered and last but not least Snape was given the DADA position when DD knew he could only have a one year term...I would like to propose that DD was passing the baton, but not to Harry. I think everyone agrees that Snape is a jackass. He was bullied, is a bully and sees everything through the lens of people trying to take advantage of him or make him appear foolish. However, he is brilliant, he is a genius at potions and has powers that rival Voldemorts. When he tells the first years that he can teach them to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death...that ain't no lie folks. But he isn't infallible. He kept DD alive after the horcrux cursed him, but he still paid a price with a dead hand. The argument in the forest? How about..."Look, don't take my powers of keeping you alive for granted. If you keep going out and doing dangerous things, I may not be able to bring you back! You are dying a slow death already!" Now let's go to the dreadful scene at the tower. Draco did not have it in him to kill DD. Mission accomplished for the headmaster, between DD's persuasion and Snape taking the vow. DD is pleading with Snape..."Severus...please..." please what? Take his life? Spare his life? What if he is pleading for Snape to do what they have been planning since DD's hand was blackened, and almost certainly since the horcrux secret had been discovered? What did he want Harry to witness while bound and invisible? DD was the greatest wizard who every lived, so I do not think he would not have a plan B in the event of his death. I believe DD was pleading for Snape to step up. "The mystery of the invincibility of Voldemort is solved. It is now time to focus our energies on destroying the horcruxes and I have done my part...but I am no longer able to do it--this potion has finished me. Please, Severus, it is time to reveal your true loyalty and take my place in assisting Harry." In that moment, Snape made his decision. What we will not know until book 7 is what his actions (apart from the actual murder, he had to do it or die at that point) really meant. Did he, in that moment, decide he had had enough of DD, enough of this wizard who was no longer powerful and foolishly drank the potion that was now killing him? This wizard, while showing him great kindness and respect, also looked the other way when he was a teenager. Perhaps the only reason he could forgive DD for not expelling Sirius is because DD saw the good in everyone, he did not play favorites, because everyone was treated like his favorite, even Tom Riddle. So, say nothing, kill the old man to put him out of his misery and save his own life, make it look good to the Death Eaters to somehow redeem himself to Voldemort. The King is dead, long live the Dark King. Or, Did Snivelus take over? Was Snape ready to take the baton, declare to all present that DD was dying and he, Severus Snape, was ready to take on Voldemort...but at the last minute got cold feet? Was it easier to just kill the already dying DD and run for it because there was no way in hell that he could ever work with that 'insufferable' Harry? "COWARD!" screamed Harry...and Snape sees James Incarnate, attempting to use his spells against him AGAIN-- confirmation that Harry is his father's son. The white hot fury and indignation...but yet he did not kill Harry and he had nothing to lose by doing so. I can imagine Dumbledore coming to Snape shortly after finding out there are four horcruxes to be destroyed and knowing he will be departing shortly to destroy the locket..."I will give my life for yours Severus, if Draco makes an attempt to kill me. Draco can be saved, he is not yet the killer Voldemort wants him to be. It is worth the price. I would have been disappointed if you had not accepted the vow. You will have to kill me Severus, or Draco will be lost. When I am gone, whether it is you or the horcrux, you must take my place beside Harry." Love and sacrifice, even for one's enemies. This is the legacy of Albus Dumbledore. This may be the legacy of Severus Snape in book 7-- with a little help from Harry and the Horcruxes. Cindy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 19:24:28 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:24:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again. WAS: Re: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's In-Reply-To: <42FCF2B4.2040404@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137438 Jazmyn: Its remarkable stupidity on the part of the > characters that not a single one that knew about Snape's vow did not > realise that Snape would have DIED if he did not kill Dumbledore. Alla: I think it was remarkable stupidity on the part of Snape to TAKE this Vow , personally, if he is one of the good guys. Jazmyn: Was he calling him a coward for NOT > throwing his life away to save a dying old man who was outliving his > usefullness to the cause?? Sorry, If I was Snape, as hard as it would > have been, I would have done the same thing just to reduce casualties > and protect the cause. Dying and having others die, who may be key to > winning the war would have been utterly foolish. > Alla: We don't KNOW that Dumbledore outlived his usefullness to the cause, on the contrary, it seems to me that he was VERY much needed to finish Harry's education if nothing else. He also was planning putting Draco into hiding We also don't know whether DD would have been able to escape if Snape started fighting with DE. Alla, who hopes to see Snape dead in the book 7,regardless of the reasons he killed Dumbledore, because he has way too much blood on his hands to get a happy ending, IMO From elbarad at aol.com Fri Aug 12 19:16:11 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:16:11 -0000 Subject: What Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137439 Potioncat: SNIP > And I think Snape was horrified to realise Harry had gotten the > book. He seemed surprised and upset in the bathroom. It is still > my belief the book went missing long ago. You have just jogged my memory:- During the confrontation between Snape and Harry at the end of 'Flight of the Prince', Snaped yelled, " You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them -I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? i don't think so...no!" HBP p563 I took this to be a reference to James' presumed use of 'levicorpus!' during the scene in the penseive (Snapes Worst memory, OotP). But what if it was more that one curse that James and Co stole? What if James had been responsible for Snape's potions book going missing? I doubt that they read it too much - after all Lupin said that he'd never heard of the Half-Blood Prince (p315, HBP). Maybe they nicked a few good jinxes and then discarded it, having not read the name at the back. The thieving of personal objects/ belongings is a very common part of bullying in schools today (and presumably always has been). Even Tom Riddle did it at the orphanage. And Luna Lovegood had her personal belonging stolen during the OotP. So, I think that the marauders may have stolen Snape's book, and it somehow made it's way to the storecupboard. What I find difficult to believe is that Snape was potions master for 15 years and didn't find the book lying in the storecupboard. I find that very difficult to believe indeed. Rebecca From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Aug 12 19:29:27 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:29:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Reflections on Voldemort Message-ID: <199.450b4b33.302e5297@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137440 In a message dated 8/12/2005 8:20:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, katarina.anna at gmx.net writes: > (Which makes me wonder who the hell told Dumbledore that Voldemort used > Nagini to kill Frank Bryce. Wormtail was the only witness.) Possibly Sirius, who got the information from Harry, who WAS an unintentional witness. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 19:43:01 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:43:01 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137441 > "ongj87" wrote: > No doubt most of us are very certain that one of the Weasley's will > be leaving us forever in the next book, if not more than one. Mrs. > Weasley's woes (OoP) are not negligible. > > Anybody got any clues as to who it might be? > prep0strus wrote: > Charlie's death would show the grief of the Weasely's, without > incurring too much upsetness from the reader. If not him, I don't > know... I do think won't be Ron or Bill - I think Harry is more > likely to die than Ron, who has to marry Hermione, and name his > I hope the twins aren't broken up, and really, I don't want to see > any of the Weaselys be lost, but I guess we'll see what happens. I expect one or more deaths in Book 7 to put us through the wringer, but am in denial about the possibility of death within the trio or quad (nod to whoever first applied term). (With apologies to unfulfilled shippers) I keep seeing the twins, twenty years hence, teaching DADA to R/H and G/H's kids, with either Gred or Forge a ghost (not because he was afraid to die, but because he couldn't bear to leave his twin). (WWW will have been sold to Seamus Finnegan and Dean Thomas.) In this scenario, their blithe spirit (no pun intended) will contribute to one of them dying; the one who remains alive will be quite changed, while the ghost twin will be as merry as ever (and the lively opposite of Binns). Sandy aka msbeadsley From doliesl at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 19:50:13 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050812195013.86562.qmail@web30313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137442 > Valky: > contradiction. I noticed in HBP that Snape was even more tolerant of > Hermione, for certainly after all has been said and done, he could > only fool himself that she is anything but brilliant and talented. He I don't see it, Snape was same to Hermione as ever: he was always not so overwhelmed by Hermione as other teachters do, because he still see her as an above average student who relied too much on memorizing word by word from books and follow everything that's in the book. I don't think Snape's attitude toward Hermione has much to do with plot, nor was it ever blood-related (no hint whatsoever on that), it's just showing his ridiculous, brtually high standard toward coming from being a genius himself, who has little tolerance for those who failed to match his brilliance and deliberately being difficult (= being a jerk). > As Mari said: "The loving choice can mean sacrificing reputation, > friends, trust, or even your life, if necessary." There was/is still > time for Sevvie to make the Loving choice here and sacrifice his pride > for what is right, first though, he has to face the kind of love that > will bear these consequences out on him and allow him to see what he > truly is. The kind of Love that Harry will need to bring to Voldemort. > It all seems *so* not nice, but it's actually the kindest isn't it, a > Love that can purify out the stains on our soul that cause us the > greatest anguish. The ones that live in our Worst Memory. > Thats the one kind of Love that I think would be able to > satisfactorily complete Harry's Story. I doubt tht JKR would reach for > something less. And I also hope that she wouldn't. I've been reading this thread with great interesting (great posts Valky and Mari), it seems to me somehow, you're suggesting that this ulimate 'love' thing in this series has to do with Harry and Snape, as in all the hate and complicated conflicts that's been contribute to these two's relationship throughout the entire series is all a build up for this finale "agape love conquer evil" thing? The greatest love power that involves Harry and Snape? That Harry and Snape is the heart of it all? As oppose to...you know...the greatest ideal equal perfect love that is Harry and Ginny? I think most people would expect/want the later. The Snape's key involvement in Harry's "love power" in defeating LV would greatly upset all those rabid Snape-haters and those who were expecting Harry/Ginny (and his friends/dead parents), let alone Snape being the key of it...there'd be outrage. Oh darn that thunder-stealing Snape...after you stole LV thunder you have to... (I would applaud JKR if she go that way, but I don't think she's that unconventional). > I still wonder if anyone else was piqued, like me, to read the passage > about Snape appearing to be in as much pain as the *Dog* (Fang) stuck > in the building behind them. I thought this was a clear allusion to > Sirius, myself, very very cleverly inserted into the most profound > moments between Snape and Harry of the whole book. I thought that was ridiculously obvious (along with the parallelization between Snape and Harry in their scenes of "sacrificing" DD under DD's demand). But hey what do you know, reading the list and I'm surprise to find all these people who's completely blind to these literary clues. And you're not the only one who notice that abnormal 'quantity" of time Snape and Harry actually spent together in their boring and uneventful detentions. Why would Snape do that? What's that about? (I would have mark that as another waste of pages on mundane daily life details that are totally non-matter that's been junking this book, but then it's Snape...hmm...) > Valky: > I entirely agree. And I agree that Harry's feelings will make it > hugely harder to have mercy on Severus Snape. However, in an ironic > twist, I think Snape will turn out to be more deserving than Pettigrew > ever was. Though Harry won't realise that until he's actually faced > this test. He will forgive Snape. I am sure he will, but not before he But Harry is not that great a person really...he's no Dumbledore. > discovers more of Snapes unpleasant truths and it is almost downright > impossible to do so. I can see the story heading for a poignant moment > when we kind of know that this huge weight has just been lifted from > Sevvies shoulders and for a fleeting moment it seems like he and Harry > have an understanding at last, for a split second we'll see Snape so > close to admitting that he actually cares about Harry.. then his face > will curl into a sneer again and with a humourless laugh Snape will > face his final fate... or something like that. HAHA, lets just hope This sounds all beautiful and all, but somehow I just can't see Harry being all that beautiful as a person, despite his extraodinary power is supposed to be *love*. Yup I'm just not convinced at all Harry is that great. So far in the book Harry has shown extremely limited capacity of "love" for those who are unlovable (or those who are not nice to him). Harry is just no Dumbledore. Harry is just an everyman, his capacity of love was, to quote Harry, BIG DEAL! Whenever someone cite how 'awesomely loving" Harry is by the example of those split second "sort feeling bad for Merope" or that "I can't believe my dad was so horrible to Snape", or "I haven't give a thought to Draco at all...but yeah poor kid...look what had he gotten himself into...man..." I'd say that is *pathetic* if these are supposed to be great example of how extraordinary and super rare Harry's oh-so-greatest capcity of love is. Those examples exactly show Harry's level of compassion, empathy and love are just everyman type of "reactionary cheap sympathy," the kind we saw on TV about certain despictable criminal's tragic childhood story, most of us would feel bad for them for like 10 seconds, then nothing. That's what Harry did. Harry is just like most people. How on earth Harry is going to suddenly achieve great capacity of Agape love? Harry's capacity of love is nowhere near Dumbledore. Really, I can't see how JKR can pull this "love power" thing through the everyman Harry other than your cliche mushy 'all those who loves me stand behind me to combine our collective super love power to strike final blow to the lonely unlovable villain' way. And yeah some people do find that so moving, interesting and dramatic... Agape? Harry?...whatever.... Would be great but just don't see it, totally OOC! Harry is not that great and loving. D. From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Fri Aug 12 19:59:54 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:59:54 -0000 Subject: Snape, You Think I am Your Father In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137443 Rebecca wrote: > I have a problem with the idea of Tom Riddle actually committing the > act that is necesary to produce a pregnacy. He is so ego-centric, and > so removed from the baggage of reliance (emotional or practical) upon > another human being, that I cannot imagine him allowing himself to > experiment with physical relationships in the slightest. I cannot > imagine him desiring physical relationships like the rest of us do. > > Of course, if I am wrong and Tom Riddle did engage in sexual > relationships then i guess he would have used sex to manipulate > people, to have power over them. > > Not a nice thought really. > > Of course, there is the possibilty that he might see it as his > responsibility to continue the line of Salazar Slytherin...? > > Rebecca I could very well believe that Riddle/LV would use sex as a tool for manipulation. However, I seem to remember JKR stating clearly in an interview that LV has no children, so that rules out the theory that LV is Snape's dad. In response to a question about Luna being Snape's daughter, she stated that Snape doesn't have a daughter. My question: does he have a son? If so, who? If he did, it couldn't be Harry, as suggested elsewhere here, as James is clearly Harry's father. Draco? I think not, as he seems to resemble his mother and father so much. I really do not believe that Snape had any children...but the "no daughter" comment vs. "no children" left me to wonder... Cheryl From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 12 21:04:16 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:04:16 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > > From a more literary point of view: JKR isn't really given to cheap > stunts in the books. I can't see an episode in Book 7 where someone > suddenly gets superhuman powers to turn the tide. All of Harry's > victories have come as a result of study and/or practice, coupled > with his bravery. Hickengruendler: Like when the Ford Anglia saved Harry and Ron from the spiders? Or when Grawp appeared right in time to chase off the centaurs? Or when first the Order members and later Dumbledore appeared exactly at thr ight time in the Department of Mysteries to help Harry and Neville? Or when Fawkes appeared in the Chamber of Secrets because Harry believed in Dumbledore? I agree that Harry is very brave and has also learnt a lot of things that were helpful to him in the fight, but JKR never was above using a Deus Ex Machina, if she felt it was necessary. Therefore I can easily see someone doing magic because they are threatened. And I personally agree with the theory that this someone is Filch. He also tried to learn magic for years, therefore it would also be the result of his studies, and not a total Deus Ex Machina. I don't think that JKR's "but" after her answer about Petunia indicates that Petunia is the one, who performed magic late in life. I think with "but" she meant that Petunia is a muggle, but her situation is comparable to that of a Squib, since she, too, has background information about the wizarding world, without being able to be a part of it. Hickengruendler From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 12 21:09:18 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:09:18 -0000 Subject: Magic in desperate circumstances (was Re: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137445 > Hickengruendler (me): > > Like when the Ford Anglia saved Harry and Ron from the spiders? Or > when Grawp appeared right in time to chase off the centaurs? Or when > first the Order members and later Dumbledore appeared exactly at thr > ight time in the Department of Mysteries to help Harry and Neville? > Or when Fawkes appeared in the Chamber of Secrets because Harry > believed in Dumbledore? I agree that Harry is very brave and has also > learnt a lot of things that were helpful to him in the fight, but JKR > never was above using a Deus Ex Machina, if she felt it was > necessary. Therefore I can easily see someone doing magic because > they are threatened. And I personally agree with the theory that this > someone is Filch. He also tried to learn magic for years, therefore > it would also be the result of his studies, and not a total Deus Ex > Machina. > Hickengruendler: I forgot to add, we already know that it is possible for someone to show their magical powers when they are in a life threatening situation. Neville started to bounce when he was dropped out of the window, which was the first time ever he showed any signs of magic. He was only eight at this point and therefore can't be the character JKR meant in her interview, but this shows, that it is possible for characters in the Potterverse to show some magical powers for the first time, when they are in a dangerous situation. From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Fri Aug 12 21:22:10 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:22:10 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > I think with "but" she meant that Petunia is a muggle, but her > situation is comparable to that of a Squib, since she, too, has > background information about the wizarding world, without being able > to be a part of it. Just speculation but... Petunia's knowledge of the Wizarding World seems to stem from the conversation she overheard between Lily and "that awful boy". JK Rowling admits in the following interview that there is more to it than just what we know from OOTP: "David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows? JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically. Is that true? JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7." Here are my wild speculations as to what the "more to it" could be (of course I could be as woefully wrong as the guy who thought the time was ripe for a cheese cauldron:): 1. I think the "awful boy" may have been Snape. Lily refers to James as "that Potter", I do not think the awful boy was Snape. 2. If the awful boy was Snape, it would likely mean that Lily and Snape spent some time together outside of school where nosy Petunia could have listened in on their conversation. 3. Lily and Petunia's parents were Muggles, so they had a Muggle upbringing. Snape's house is in a Muggle village, and his father was a Muggle. Is it possible that Lily and Snape were childhood friends, and that she is the girl laughing at the boy on the bucking broomstick in Snape's memories? 4. If the awful boy was talking about the Dementors of Azkaban, he may have also offered some information on ways to keep the Demetors at bay. Perhaps Petunia also overheard this bit of information and will use it to defend her family against Dementors if they return to Privet Drive in the next book. Maybe there is some method that even a Muggle or someone young who is not yet able to produce a Patruonus could use if instructed (after all, chocolate is not a magical remedy...or is it?) Cheryl From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Aug 12 21:39:37 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 12 Aug 2005 21:39:37 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1123882777.1625.20707.w120@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137447 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /HBP Posts.xls Uploaded by : jlnbtr Description : Complete Index of HBP posts 07/16/05-08/01/05 You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HBP%20Posts.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, jlnbtr From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 22:06:12 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily&Severus (was: Re: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050812220612.69737.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137448 mompowered wrote: 3. Lily and Petunia's parents were Muggles, so they had a Muggle upbringing. Snape's house is in a Muggle village, and his father was a Muggle. Is it possible that Lily and Snape were childhood friends, and that she is the girl laughing at the boy on the bucking broomstick in Snape's memories? Juli: I like that idea. Lily and Severus knew each other before they started at Hogwarts, and they were friends, they used to play together and everything, but then they turned 11 and started Hogwarts, Lily gets sorted into Gryffindor and Severus into Slytherin, since both houses are sworn enemies, that's the end of their friendship. Severus starts hanging with pure-bloods and embraces their philosophy; he can't be seen with a "Mudblood". Lily tries to remain friends, but Severus won't do it, his reputation is more important. The years pass and Severus pretends he doesn't even know Lily, he acts like she's not worthy of even a 'Hello'. Snape secretly admires her because she also "hates" James and Sirius, but of course he can't tell her. Their sixth year arrives and Lily starts going out with James, Snape can't believe her, he feels betrayed, then James saves Snape's life at the Prank incident, and Severus starts hating a bit less James. They graduate from Hogwarts, Severus becomes friends once again with Lily (and this is when Petunia hears the conversation), and of course James doesn't know about this. Then they get married and Severus can't take it so he joins the Death Eaters. Snape overhears the prophesy and tells Voldemort about it. Voldemort decides it's the Potters' boy, Snape knowing this returns to Dumbledore and offers his help and alliagance. Snape never tells Lily (or James) everything he knows, but deep inside he cares about them, and hates himself for telling Voldemort about the prophesy. Voldemort kills Lily and James, and Severus thinks it's all his fault, so when Harry starts at Hogwarts, he does whatever he can to protect him, but also maintaining his cover... Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 12 22:11:32 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:11:32 -0000 Subject: Slug Club (was Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137449 Colebiancardi: > where is that revealed? Snape was a member of the Slugclub? Do you > have a page number? The only thing we do know is that Slughorn was > the head of house in Slytherin & Snape was in that house. Where is it > that Snape & Lily were *comrades* of a sort? They were in advanced > potions - but who is to say their relationship wasn't more of a > Draco/Hermoine type? Potioncat: I don't think it's ever said that Snape was in the Slug Club. It is implied. Snape is at Slughorn's party; Slughorn has his arm around Snape; Slughorn starts to make positive comments about Snape's potion making skills; at the end of the book he says something along the line of "I thought I knew him." Nothing concrete. Were Lily and Severus comrades? Perhaps no more than Hermione and Cormac. Now, what do you make of the fact that Trelawney was at the party? From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 12 22:40:35 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:40:35 -0000 Subject: Slug Club & Re: Snape, You Think I am Your Father In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137450 had to merge two threads, as I only had one comment on one topic & more on the Slugclub... Cheryl wrote: I really do not believe that Snape had any children...but the "no daughter" comment vs. "no children" left me to wonder... colebiancardi: Well, Rowling loves to give us red herrings. I think this is one of them. I cannot fathom Snape as a father ? not the way he treats Hogwart's students. Unless, of course, his child is a squib and he is resentful LOL Potioncat: I don't think it's ever said that Snape was in the Slug Club. It is implied. Snape is at Slughorn's party; Slughorn has his arm around Snape; Slughorn starts to make positive comments about Snape's potion making skills; at the end of the book he says something along the line of "I thought I knew him." Nothing concrete. colebiancardi: Well, Snape is currently the head of house for Slytherin and also Slughorn knew Severus when Snape a student at Hogwarts. As the head of his house, Sluggie probably knew all of his Slytherin "kids", hence his familar behavior with Snape. And Snape was good at potions ? so, Slughorn mentioned it. I just don't think Snape was in the Slugclub ? there is nothing to gain by having Snape in that club, imho. I would really love to know what Slughorn thought of Snape when Snape was in his house as a teen.... Potioncat: Were Lily and Severus comrades? Perhaps no more than Hermione and Cormac. colebiancardi: Who the heck is Cormac? LOL Potioncat: Now, what do you make of the fact that Trelawney was at the party? colebiancardi: I think that all teachers were invited. But not all students were. Sluggie is a professor and not to invite teachers would be a grave oversite on his part. I think that Slughorn is not an evil man, nor is he a hateful guy ? I could see him inviting all the professors to the Christmas Party. He cannot, obviously, invite all the students ? just those in his club colebiancardi...(4th post of the day ..) From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 18:44:09 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:44:09 -0000 Subject: A Simple Snape Explanation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137451 What if there is no convoluted plan between Snape and Dumbledore concocted after the Unbreakable Vow between Snape and Cissy? What if Snape is simply acting under orders Dumbledore gave him a long time ago. If years ago, when Dumbledore realized both that Snape had gone back to the side of Good and that LV was definitely NOT gone for good, he told Snape that his mission, should LV return to full power, will be to rejoin the Death Eaters and STAY WITH THEM, whatever the consequences until the very last battle. That would explain the lack of specifics btwn SS and DD during the forest conversation (SS is simply saying that DD takes too much for granted, he's scared at what he may be forced to do with the DEs before the final battle) and DD is simply reiterating that - no matter what the cost - SS must be in position to betray LV when he is at his most vulnerable (ie, when Harry and DD [and RAB?] have destroyed the Horcruxes. This also explains the look of revulsion and hatred, which wouldn't be present if the specific killing of DD by SS had already been discussed - SS is repulsed both with himself (for what he knows he must do) and with DD (for his longstanding orders that have now left SS in this position). But nevertheless, being DD's man, he carries out his orders and rejoins the DE (destroying any hope of good relations with any Order members) and he now knows he'll be on their side until the end - a supremely unappealing prospect as he knows that he'll be asked to kill again. This would also explain why he's so angry at being called a coward - he's arguably sacrificing more for the battle than either Harry (who has already lost much, but hasn't chosen to give any of it up) and DD (who gave his life, but did so with his good name and reputation as a great good wizard intact). Snape is sacrificing everything, and he knows he will most likely die in the process and be remembered as a traitor - I'd be damn upset if someone called me a coward for doing that. Anyway, this is similar to some theories, but I see the DD/SS conversation as having been very simple, and not such a thought-out plan (there are too many things DD and SS don't know for it to be that step-by-step type of plan). Anyway, first post, just wondering what everyone thinks. Great discussion on here - I was looking for a long time for a less-chatroom type of atmosphere to discuss the books at length. Thanks, J From niichuanninjagirl at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 19:11:24 2005 From: niichuanninjagirl at yahoo.com (Becky M) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:11:24 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Nymphadora Tonks and the U.L.T.I.M.A.T.U.M. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137452 BeckyM runs down to the docks, waving a roll of parchment. "I've got it!" she cries. "The perfect theory! And I call it... U.L.T.I.M.A.T.U.M." A passing house elf looks up at her and squeaks, "Ultimatum?" BeckyM nods. "Unexplained Lovesickness! Tonks Is Made Amorous Through Unscrupulous Means. In it, I postulate that the reason that Tonks' character changes so much from OotP to HBP is that during the two weeks between the books someone must have slipped her a love potion to cause her to be obsessed with Lupin. We all saw how single minded it made Ron, didn't we?" The elf wrinkles its nose. BeckyM coughs embarassedly. "Anyhow," she continues, "it's possible that if Draco got to Rosemerta early enough in the summer, he could very well have had her slip Tonks the potion. Having the Auror that was supposed to be in charge of taking care of Hogsmeade permanently distracted would have definitely made it easier for him to pull of his plots against Dumbledore--pity, of course, that they failed. Or one of the other Death Eaters might have administered it for very similar reasons. Heck, even Mundungus might have slipped her it--it would through her off balance enough that she'd have trouble catching him. Although..." BeckyM purses her lips. "You know, if Lupin really IS Ever So Evil, he could have been the one that administered the potion. Not only would it distract a vital member of the Auror from her duties, but when he ended up returning her affections after Dumbledore's death, he got himself a woman who would do anything for him. Maybe even betray the order." She shrugs. "It's a theory, anyway." From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 23:34:45 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:34:45 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137453 I'm responding to several different posts here: jujube, hickengruendler and Cheryl. jujube: > Marvolo is many horrible things, but the things he tells us in the > scene we see are true: he is the descendant of Salazar Slytherin, > that is the ring of Slytherin and that is the Slytherin locket. > Should we doubt his characterization of his daughter? > > Also, the Lexicon says Squibs have "such a low level of magical > power that they are essentially unable to do any magic at > all." "A low level of magical power" is not the same as no > magical power at atll. While Merope does do some magic, it is > completely useless magic, and probably the little she can do is a > function of the extremely powerful wizarding skills that are in > her family (for I believe Marvolo and Morfin, as disgusting as > they are, are powerful wizards). Jen: I snipped to this point, jujube, because I think we could probably split hairs arguing the other points without making any headway. I've re-read the quote from JKR several times now and *do* see your interpretation, if you view all of JKR's answer as being connected to the question. I view her answer as a two-part thing, the first line "No, is the answer" as the answer to the actual question, and the rest an extrapolation on the subject of developing powers later in life. The "quite late in life" part continues to trip me up for identifying Merope as the late-bloomer. Even considering magical age and not chronological, 20 does not seem 'quite late in life' to me, and I can't shake that perception. This is a new thought on Marvolo, though, and you won't be surprised I read his character very differently, and probably the entire scene. First, Dumbledore had this to say about Merope: "I think you are forgetting," said Dumbledore, "that Merope was a witch." (chap. 10, p. 213, US). As JKR's mouthpiece, that's probably the most salient canon point of how we should view Merope. You stated we should believe Marvolo's assessment of Merope as a Squib because although he shows many faults, he hasn't proven himself to be a liar. That's very true. And I don't think he's *lying* when he says his opinion is that Merope is a Squib. He's obviously extremely attached to his Slytherin heritage and artifacts, more than his daughter anyway, and all of the 'truths' he mentions are verifiable facts except for the one opinion in the mix-- Merope's magical power. Either he is completely blind to the fact that his threats and verbal abuse are the primary cause of his daughter's diminished powers, or he doesn't really care and gets satisfaction out of bullying her. Either way, we can't verify from Marvolo's words and Merope's one act of magic that she is, without question, a Squib. So I think Merope has always been a witch, albeit one with diminished powers due to circumstance. I'm certain Marvolo convinced *Merope* she was a Squib, though. Which makes her bid for power when he's carted off to Azkaban all the more satisfying because she proves to herself that her father's opinions were just that and nothing more. jujube: > Merope's real magic is, IMO, the true turning point of the long > story we are told in this series, and once I read HBP I just had a > gut feeling (the same kind of feeling I did when I figured out > Voldemort's plan for the Horcruxes [although, of course, I didn't > know they would be called that. ;-)]) that that quote referred to > Merope. Jen: I'm all for gut feelings! I respect this site's request that all posts be attached to canon, and try to always provide quotes and other backing documentation. But there's room for flights of fancy and gut feelings for *all* of us here, I think. hickengruendler: > I don't think that JKR's "but" after her answer about Petunia > indicates that Petunia is the one, who performed magic late in > life. I think with "but" she meant that Petunia is a muggle, but > her situation is comparable to that of a Squib, since she, too, > has background information about the wizarding world, without > being able to be a part of it. Jen: Thank you! I've been wondering about that 'but' all week and your answer rings true for me. Cheryl: > 1. I think the "awful boy" may have been Snape. Lily refers to > James as "that Potter.".... > 2. If the awful boy was Snape, it would likely mean that Lily and > Snape spent some time together outside of school where nosy > Petunia could have listened in on their conversation. > 3. Lily and Petunia's parents were Muggles, so they had a Muggle > upbringing. Snape's house is in a Muggle village, and his father > was a Muggle. Is it possible that Lily and Snape were childhood > friends, and that she is the girl laughing at the boy on the > bucking broomstick in Snape's memories? Jen: I'm leaning toward your #1 & 2 Cheryl. If Lily ever brought James home, and we know they didn't start dating until the seventh year (Lupin in OOTP), then he was a man for all intents and purposes. Who knows if Petunia ever met James directly, anyway? Unless I'm forgetting something, we don't know if Petunia was the oldest, if she left home before Lily, if she went to the Potter's wedding, etc. Her one quote: "Then she met Potter at school and they left and got married and had you..." (PS, chap. 4, p. 53) doesn't tell us if the two met directly. Your #3 is appealing, that Lily and Snape were childhood friends. It's hard to believe Harry wouldn't recognize Lily as a child in the Pensieve, but he never verified that the little boy was Snape, either. *Sigh* I'm resigned to the fact that JKR artfully covers her plot twists by giving Harry brain blips. Not mentioning who he thinks these children are in the Pensieve is one example. Another is not mentioning if there was a Slyterhin mark on the locket at 12 GP. I'm certain there are others but those are two off the top of my head. Jen From dave1x2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 21:18:53 2005 From: dave1x2003 at yahoo.com (D D) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 - Kreacher in the cave! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050812211853.34073.qmail@web32106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137454 vmonte wrote: It's simple really. Regulus took Kreacher with him and had him drink the potion. You know, I bet you are right. This sounds just like something that Rowling would include. It's simple, and it fits all the known attributes of the characters. This addresses the "how" part of the RAB scenario. I suppose as an insider, and with the means you described, RAB being able to snag the locket isn't so far-fetched. However, I am still left with two questions, more from a meta-perspective. First, why steal it and leave a note like that? On the surface, it doesn't appear to make much sense. Hopefully this will be explained sufficiently in Book 7. Second, from a writing standpoint - Does it make sense to introduce such an important character into the story at this point? It's a bit of a deus ex machina, if you ask me. Usually, the big twists are best when you could have known all along if you'd followed the clues. This one was out of left field. Granted, we don't know the full explaination yet, so maybe it will all make perfect sense. However, at this endgame situation, where all the players have taken their positions for the final showdown, this kind of addition seems out of place. Don't get me wrong, in a way I like the addition. There does have to be something new for Book 7, and this has fueled (and will continue to fuel) all sorts of fun speculation. It does seem a bit contrived, though. -Dave From hsvdine at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 21:56:16 2005 From: hsvdine at yahoo.com (hsvdine) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:56:16 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137455 I'm new here and usually just read rather than write but no one else is bringing this up so I thought I would just ask for some opinions. It seems to me that JKR is very purposeful in what she throws in and likes to bury clues in the books so it strikes me as very important that Professor Trelawney is seen several times in HBP and seems more agitated each time. I don't quite buy the shes just a drunk line and it seems like there is more here. Anyone else have any thoughts.... hsvdine From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Fri Aug 12 23:58:27 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:58:27 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137456 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hsvdine" wrote: > I'm new here and usually just read rather than write but no one else > is bringing this up so I thought I would just ask for some opinions. > It seems to me that JKR is very purposeful in what she throws in and > likes to bury clues in the books so it strikes me as very important > that Professor Trelawney is seen several times in HBP and seems more > agitated each time. I don't quite buy the shes just a drunk line and > it seems like there is more here. Anyone else have any thoughts.... > > hsvdine I'm sorry, I may be going over my daily posts in this, but I just had to say something. I think instead of Sybil Trelawney, her name should perhaps be Cassandra Trelawney. Most people think of her as a fraud, and she acts like a stereotypical "fortune teller" most of the time. However, other than her two true prophecies, she has been right, in a way, at times. A couple that I can recall: 1) The Grim in POA. Of course, it wasn't the grim, it was Sirius, but she did "see" a big, black dog. 2) The "lightning-struck tower" card reading she was doing before the tower scene. Maybe she is having a breakdown from all her forecasts of doom while nobody takes her seriously, as well as her feeling insulted to have Firenze also teaching her subject. Cheryl From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 00:00:42 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:00:42 -0000 Subject: Molly's Woes: (WAS: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137457 Rachel wrote: I'm pretty sure that Charlie is the only one that Mrs. Weasly's boggart DOESN'T turn into. Bookworm: Harry saw, in this order, Ron, Bill, Arthur, the Twins, Percy, Harry/himself. We don't know what Molly saw before Harry arrived, but the only two Harry didn't see were Charlie and Ginny. IMO that is significant, but why? I haven't figured out. Ravenclaw Bookworm From oiboyz at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 00:07:51 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:07:51 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137458 "hsvdine" wrote: > It seems to me that JKR is very purposeful in what she throws in and > likes to bury clues in the books so it strikes me as very important > that Professor Trelawney is seen several times in HBP and seems more > agitated each time. I don't quite buy the shes just a drunk line and > it seems like there is more here. Anyone else have any thoughts.... Well, maybe Trelawny's just upset for the same reason as everyone else: LV is getting more powerful and people are dying. Or maybe she's upset because Firenze is still around, teaching half her classes and stealing the affections of her most devoted students (Parvati and Lavender). A cooler explanation for Trelawny's agitation is that her Inner Eye is disturbing her more and more as LV's power increases. redandgoldlion had a fun theory going in post #132958 that Trelawny's drinking enhances her divination prowess. She had two spot-on prophecies in HBP. First she turned over a card that indicated Harry's presence ("Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner"), and she never knew it was right because Harry was hiding behind a statue to avoid her. Then, of course, there was her prediction of the "lightening-struck tower" But I'm inclined to think that the knave of spades was coincidence-- if Trelawny walks around the castle flipping cards over constantly, she's bound to be right a few times. And the second prophecy ain't so impressive when you consider that she *always* predicts disaster, so any time a disaster does happen, she'll have predicted it. "Lightning-struck tower" is reasonably vague. I think the most important Trelawny moment in HBP was when Dumbledore told Harry that she needs to be kept at Hogwarts because she'll be in great danger from Voldemort if she leaves. Now that Dumbledore is dead and Snape has fled, is Harry the only one on the good side who knows that Trelawny made the prophecy? I suspect her protection will be one more responsibility for him to deal with in Book 7. -oiboyz From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Sat Aug 13 00:11:11 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:11:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: <005f01c59f4e$8d4ebbe0$4821f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: how is Snape going to be of more use to Harry than > Dumbledore? Harry will *never* listen to anything from Snape now. He saw him murder Dumbledore. He'll never listen. As to Snape > as spy being more valuable than Dumbledore, the only wizard Voldemort fears? > I just don't believe it. The fact that Voldemort fears Dumbledore can be a very valuable asset and may have held him back. But did DD manage to stop Voldemort committing countless atrocities in the last war. No he did not. DD started the Order of the Phoenix, but the Order was outnumbered, - and losing. The point here is that DD could NOT stop Voldemort, only Harry managed that. So DD hatched a plan (alluded to in OOTP) that involves Harry defeating Voldemort. That plan has definitely been in place throughout the books and again is alluded to in OOTP. Do you honestly believe that after all that set up, this plan has now spectacularly failed? It makes no sense!! > > Sherry now: > But seriously, now that I'm free to see him as I believe he truly is, > there's nothing that suggests to me that he is good all along. Especially > when I consider his abuse of his students. No matter how I slice it, his > treatment of Neville is abusive and could send a kid to the wizarding > version of a psychiatrist for years. I agree that Snape is abusive, and anybody who suffers such abuse deserves my utmost sympathy. But IMO, the world is grey, and Snape's abuse does not preclude the potential that he would fight against Voldemort. > > Brothergib > > And, IMO, most damning of all, is his reaction to Harry's comment of > Coward. Again IMO, it doesn't make sense that if Snape had finally > killed DD and freed himself of Hogwarts, he would care what Harry said to him. He would be elated and not react this way. What makes more sense, IMO, is if Snape has just been forced to kill DD(on DD's orders) to ultimately help Harry (someone he doesn't think is up to the job) and is then called a coward, he might not be able to > control his temper!! > > > Sherry now: > > Well, we see this completely differently. I don't think it takes a whole lot of courage to murder a sick and weak man. Dumbledore was unarmed without his wand. Not a very brave act to walk up and do the WW version of shooting someone in the head. Nothing will convince me of a secret plan between the two. As I've said before, Snape is Evil, simply means that DD is a complete fool. And DD is too powerful a wizard to be fooled thus. You have clearly read my other posts so I won't labour the point. Only to say that DD has a cast iron reason for trusting Snape. We have not been told this reason because JKR needs the ambiguity to last into book 7. But whatever it is, I don't believe DD was wrong to believe it! Brothergib From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 00:26:47 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:26:47 -0000 Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: <20050810213046.42928.qmail@web51410.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137460 Lisa responds: > JKR was asked in an interview after OotP was > released whether Percy was acting under his own volition during > the Book, and JKR's reply was along the lines of "unfortunately > so." Diane C He could be spying for Dumbledore by his own volition. I just can't fathom any of the Weasley's being such a turncoat. Bookworm: As much as I dislike the idea, and unless JKR has kept some (more) info from us, I am afraid that Percy is just as ambitious and self- centered as he appears. The question Lisa is referring to was asked at a time when "Percy was Imperio'd" theories abounded. As I understood it, JKR was responding to those - that Percy was rational and responsible, not literally controlled by someone else. Ravenclaw Bookworm From Sherry at PebTech.net Fri Aug 12 14:55:05 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:55:05 -0000 Subject: What Petunia Knows (Was Re: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137461 jjjjjuliep wrote: > At this point, with one book to go, [JKR]'s not going to be > introducing convenient and previously unmentioned and unsupported > storylines like this into the story. > > > > JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do magic, > > > and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. > > The canon says, uneqivocally, that Petunia is a Muggle: > > The Evans family is Muggle through and through, with the sole > exception of Lily--not unlike Hermione's case. [See jjjjjuliep's post for her citations from JKR's interviews.] Amontillada: I agree--It might be Petunia, but it would be *what she knows* rather than what power she has. esmith222002 wrote: > > > > As for Petunia, canon suggests that she knows more about the > > wizarding world than she is letting on. We also have canon that > > Petunia is a nosy neighbour. Therefore, I'm sure she would have > > been interested in Lily's 'world'. IMO, Petunia has a piece of > > information that is going to help Harry. > jjjjjuliep wrote: > I do agree with this assessment of how Petunia will surprise us. > > I think Petunia will produce the letter that > Dumbledore left with Harry and also reveal the mystery behind > the "PETUNIA REMEMBER MY LAST" Howler. Amontillada: I, too, am thinking along these lines. Alternatively, Petunia may reveal some information that Lily gave her, maybe even something that Lily asked Petunia to keep for her--intending to come back for it, but never had a chance to do so before Voldemort killed her. If, as other people have suggested, Lily worked in the mysterious room where witches and wizards, it might be connected to that which would help to reinforce Harry's link to love. At the end of HBP, it seemed to me that his link to love was in danger of being overwhelmed by his fury/hatred toward Snape. Dumbledore always stressed that love was the great thing he had that Voldemort didn't. I'm firmly convinced that will be central to his victory (however he wins it) in the seventh book. My two cents, or tuppence, or whatever they're worth! Amontillada From niichuanninjagirl at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 18:09:40 2005 From: niichuanninjagirl at yahoo.com (Becky M) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:09:40 -0000 Subject: Florence (Was Re: What would you ask?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137462 rochesteruponmedway wrote: > Who the hell is Florence? > Sylvia (who doubts that we are ever going to find out) The devastatingly attractive Ms Wilkes, I believe. I've been reading some classic HP4GU posts from the Three Year Summer and she's the subject of a bunch of speculation :) ~BeckyM, geeking it out like woah From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 00:42:21 2005 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:42:21 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP: Planting info on the Tarot Deck? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mompowered" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hsvdine" wrote: > > I'm new here and usually just read rather than write but no one else > > is bringing this up so I thought I would just ask for some opinions. > > It seems to me that JKR is very purposeful in what she throws in and > > likes to bury clues in the books so it strikes me as very important > > that Professor Trelawney is seen several times in HBP and seems more > > agitated each time. I don't quite buy the shes just a drunk line and > > it seems like there is more here. Anyone else have any thoughts.... > > > > hsvdine > > I'm sorry, I may be going over my daily posts in this, but I just had > to say something. I think instead of Sybil Trelawney, her name should > perhaps be Cassandra Trelawney. Most people think of her as a fraud, > and she acts like a stereotypical "fortune teller" most of the time. > However, other than her two true prophecies, she has been right, in a > way, at times. A couple that I can recall: 1) The Grim in POA. Of > course, it wasn't the grim, it was Sirius, but she did "see" a big, > black dog. 2) The "lightning-struck tower" card reading she was doing > before the tower scene. Maybe she is having a breakdown from all her > forecasts of doom while nobody takes her seriously, as well as her > feeling insulted to have Firenze also teaching her subject. > > Cheryl mhbobbin writes: I remember that there was a good post about a year ago which analyzed all the prophecies Trelawney had made that had concluded and her rate of getting it about right was roughly 50%--at least as far as what she saw but not what she thought it meant. As others have pointed out, she may well "see" with her inner eye but she gets the meaning wrong quite a bit. She does teach "divination"-- not "predictions" and that seems to imply to me that she is expected to discern meaning from what she sees--and Trelawney's weak on this part. But her inner eye does seem to work. I think Trelawney's part in HBP is to introduce us to the Tarot Deck- -planting information that JKR wants us to have for Book 7---there was a good post a couple days ago that talked about the four suits in the Tarot deck--cup, pentacle, sword and rod---that seems to relate to the four elements and the four founders, and as a poster has theorized --might lead to the missing horcrux. As for the card "lightning-stuck tower"--she senses that there's going to be something bad happening on a tower---and that's a pretty good prediction as it turns out... I assume this is a real card in the tarot deck---is there deeper meaning with that card? mhbobbin From etoile.lps at wanadoo.fr Fri Aug 12 19:52:07 2005 From: etoile.lps at wanadoo.fr (lisastenstrom) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:52:07 -0000 Subject: Harry as a natural legilimens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137464 Eggplant wrote: > I hadn't thought of Harry as a natural Legilimens but the idea does > have some merit. It would explain how Harry knew intuitively that > Draco was doing something very important and very sinister in The Room > Of Requirements, and that Death Eaters were likely going to attack the > school when Harry and Dumbledore were away, and that Snape was > untrustworthy and dangerous. Even a powerful wizard like Dumbledore > could not see none of these things but Harry was right and Dumbledore > wrong. Hmmm. I think Harry's using his intuition in these examples. He wasn't actually reading anybody's mind. Lisa Stenstrom From etoile.lps at wanadoo.fr Fri Aug 12 20:02:25 2005 From: etoile.lps at wanadoo.fr (lisastenstrom) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:02:25 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil ( was: No Snape is not evil!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137465 Eggplant wrote: > Because Dumbledore did not tell Harry this means Harry hates Snape at > least as much as he hates Voldemort and may place an even higher > priority on killing him. If Harry and Snape are really on the same > side but they are trying to kill each other this would be a blunder of > cosmic proportions on Dumbledore's part. Serious died because > Dumbledore kept Harry in the dark about something, I don't think he's > make the same mistake again. I might be wandering off the thread a little here but something I think JKR let slip in an interview convinced me that Snape really is a bad guy (something apart from the evidence we've seen in the first 6 books). - "MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" "JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. Okay, one more each!" LisaStenstrom From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Sat Aug 13 00:49:20 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:49:20 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137466 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore reluctantly > on Dumbledore's orders and at heart Snape is really a pussycat theory. > I believe any one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea. > > 1) Snape already had Voldemort's trust, we are told in chapter 2 that > he is the Dark Lord's closest adviser and he already knows of the Top > Secret plan to kill Dumbledore, there was no need for the Order of the > Phoenix to lose their most powerful wizard for Voldemort to trust him. The whole point here is that Bella's concerns are very, very valid. Nobody could be completely sure that Snape was telling the truth since he is such a good Occlumens. Voldemort is not stupid enough to turn away a Death Eater like Snape in such a powerful position, but he would be very foolish if he COMPLETELY trusted him!! > 2) It doesn't matter if Snape knows of Voldemort's plans now because > he can't tell anyone, nobody in the OotP would believe him, in fact > they'd kill him on sight before he could even open his mouth. This is Snape's task - nobody else's. He will have to do something himself to disrupt Voldemort's plans > > 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he murdered > Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor. No canon for that whatsoever!! > > 4) I do not believe Dumbledore would ask anyone to become a murderer. Purely your opinion, but there is no evidence here that would torpedo anything!! > > 5) If Dumbledore did have some sort of wacky plan he would have to be brain dead dumb not to tell Harry about it; he must know that after > Harry saw him be murdered by Snape he would never rest until Snape was dead, or Harry was. > It is clear from OOTP that Harry is a poor occlumens and Voldemort could raid Harry's thoughts when he wanted to. Therefore it is imperative that Harry does not know of Snape's mission to ensure that Voldemort does not get wind of it!! Brothergib From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 00:55:09 2005 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:55:09 -0000 Subject: The Lightning Struck Tower Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137467 After my last post, I looked up the meaning of this card. One of the meanings in the Tarot deck was "the severing of a friendship." --that wording cracked me up. Perhaps that is where JKR got Snape's first name. And also meanings for divination --that turns events upside down etc., disaster etc. mhbobbin From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Sat Aug 13 01:14:42 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:14:42 -0000 Subject: Lily&Severus (was: Re: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT) In-Reply-To: <20050812220612.69737.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137468 > mompowered wrote: > > 3. Lily and Petunia's parents were Muggles, so they had a Muggle > upbringing. Snape's house is in a Muggle village, and his father > was a Muggle. Is it possible that Lily and Snape were childhood > friends, and that she is the girl laughing at the boy on the bucking broomstick in Snape's memories? > Great idea! And is Snape's testing of Harry's potions knowledge at the beginning of PS/SS an attempt to determine if Harry is like Lily i.e. a potions whizz! Brothergib From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 13 01:28:09 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:28:09 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: <20050812195013.86562.qmail@web30313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137469 D.: > This sounds all beautiful and all, but somehow I just can't see > Harry being all that beautiful as a person, despite his > extraodinary power is supposed to be *love*. Yup I'm just not > convinced at all Harry is that great. So far in the book Harry has > shown extremely limited capacity of "love" for those who are > unlovable (or those who are not nice to him). Harry is just no > Dumbledore. Harry is just an everyman, his capacity of love was, > to quote Harry, BIG DEAL! > Really, I can't see how JKR can pull this "love power" thing > through the everyman Harry other than your cliche mushy 'all those > who loves me stand behind me to combine our collective super love > power to strike final blow to the lonely unlovable villain' way. > And yeah some people do find that so moving, interesting and > dramatic... > > Agape? Harry?...whatever.... Jen: Not everyone is impressed with Dumbledore's assertion that Harry's power and protection is his ability to love. It seems like a pretty dubious ability in the face of a well-placed AK. I'm wondering if Dumbledore means something a bit more magical when he says Harry's power is his ability to love. What if he's not referring to love in Harry's day-to-day actions or his 'saving people thing' or even Agape love, but is instead referring to a magical transformation which took place when Lily's loving sacrifice clashed with Voldemort's evil curse and both came to reside in not only Harry's blood, but in his very skin? Dumbledore considers Harry remarkable because by wizarding world standards, he shouldn't be the wizard he grew to become. Harry was cursed by the most evil wizard ever, who not only transferred powers to Harry but marked him with the evil curse as well. Then on the heels of that event, Harry was cruelly denied his magical heritage for 11 years. At Hogwarts, Harry was touched by evil hands, spent time in the Chamber of Secrets, was targeted and sucked by Dementors, forced to give up his blood for Voldemort's re-birthing and ultimately possessed by Voldemort. Yet he remains pure. It must be amazing in the WW to be touched by evil so frequently and even possessed by it, but never drawn to it. Dumbledore really hammers these ideas in the Horcrux chapter, but one description particularly stands out for me: "It is Voldemort's fault that you were able to see into his thoughts, his ambitions, that you even understand the snakelike language in which he gives orders, and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world (which, incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to have), you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts, never, even for a second, shown the slightest desire to become one of Voldemort's followers. (chap. 23, p. 511, US). Harry does not have to be supremely magically powerful, or perfectly behaved, for his untarnished soul to cause the demise of Voldemort. Voldemort seems to be taking care of that part himself :). Each time he attempts to thwart or kill Harry by deeply evil means, the rejection seems to increase Harry's 'ability to love' in the sense that he grows more & more able to repel Voldemort. He's basically got Voldemort on the run at the moment, wounded by his attempt to possess him, practicing Occlumency against him--the most feared evil wizard *ever* hiding from Harry! Harry also seems to increases in his ability to draw magical help to himself, and not always in the form of a more skilled wizard, either. He was completely alone in the graveyard and still managed to escape because both the Phoenix song and the mere *echos* of Voldemort's victims were drawn to help him. Contrast that with the ambiguously loyal DE's helping Voldemort that night. And I don't think this denies Harry's choice in the matter, either. He could choose to run away from Voldemort, and be hunted down, but his protection would not be nearly so powerful as it has grown over the years as he defies Voldemort again and again. Jen From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Aug 13 01:29:03 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:29:03 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137470 Esmith222002: > > But did DD manage to stop Voldemort committing countless atrocities > in the last war. No he did not. DD started the Order of the Phoenix, > but the Order was outnumbered, - and losing. The point here is that > DD could NOT stop Voldemort, only Harry managed that. > So DD hatched a plan (alluded to in OOTP) that involves Harry > defeating Voldemort. That plan has definitely been in place > throughout the books and again is alluded to in OOTP. Do you honestly > believe that after all that set up, this plan has now spectacularly > failed? It makes no sense!! You make a good point, but we have no idea what DD's plan was or how far it extended. It is perfectly plausible from Dumbledore's speech in OOTP that the plan consisted of nothing more than making sure that Harry stayed alive and was educated as a wizard so that he could then fulfil his destiny as the only one who can defeat Voldemort. Certainly Dumbledore can't have formulated any more complicated plan than that between the Potter's deaths and taking Harry to the Dursley's, he simply didn't have time. Also, the "plan" was one of those elements of OOTP that got very swiftly swept under the rug -- I suspect because it raised doubts about DD's character and moral fiber that JKR did not intend to raise. It wouldn't surprise me very much if we never heard about it again, or if we do it is only in passing and it turns out to have been only keeping Harry alive. > > As I've said before, Snape is Evil, simply means that DD is a > complete fool. And DD is too powerful a wizard to be fooled thus. You > have clearly read my other posts so I won't labour the point. Only to > say that DD has a cast iron reason for trusting Snape. We have not > been told this reason because JKR needs the ambiguity to last into > book 7. But whatever it is, I don't believe DD was wrong to believe > it! > Well, that seems to be an all-or-nothing interpretation. I see no reason why Snape would have to be completely evil and/or that Dumbledore would have to be a complete fool. We as yet have no idea of many of Snape's motivations. Perhaps he was loyal to Dumbledore until something happened that overrode that loyalty. Possibilities for such a scenario? Perhaps he hates Harry too much to continue working with him, and the hate bubbled over at the worst possible moment. Perhaps he simply could not bring himself to die for the old man. Perhaps Draco is his illegitimate son and he found himself forced to choose between DD's life and Draco's. Perhaps he does suffer something like an addiction to the Dark Arts and his sickness drove him insane. Perhaps he was loyal to DD because he has sworn an unbreakable oath to keep Harry alive, and his resentment finally got the better of him. Any of these scenarios -- along with many, many others -- would save DD from complete foolishness. He simply underestimated the depth of Snape's feelings, and thus did not realize how a given situation would affect the Potions Master. Snape has certainly shown in the past that he allows his personal feelings to interfere with the war against Voldemort, with disastrous consequences. And DD has shown that, in his detachment, he was not capable of anticipating Snape's behavior. DD a complete fool? No. Merely an old man who has become dangerously isolated, somewhat blinded by optimism, and to an extent detached from the emotions less experienced and powerful people feel. He did not make many mistakes, but it only takes one mistake to kill. And only one mistake to die. Lupinlore From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 01:51:36 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Lightning Struck Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050813015136.4785.qmail@web60411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137471 --- mhbobbin wrote: > > After my last post, I looked up the meaning of this > card. One of the > meanings in the Tarot deck was "the severing of a > friendship." > --that wording cracked me up. Perhaps that is where > JKR got Snape's > first name. > > And also meanings for divination --that turns events > upside down etc., > disaster etc. > > mhbobbin Larry now: I take this severing to be not only figurative, but literal as well. Dumbledore was going to die at some point, so that Harry could stand on his own. If there was some prearraingment between Snape and Dumbledore, suggesting some master plan of Dumbledore encompassing even his own death, Harry could never be said to be really on his own. He would merely be a piece on a chess board, with Dumbledore as the chess master actually moving the pieces. Also, the death of Dumbledore at that moment was most inopportune. Think of the unanswered questions, much of it information Harry will need. Dumbledore would not have chosen this moment to die, leaving Harry less than ready. This accounts for Dumbledore's plea. He was not begging for himself, but for Harry. He would never beg on his own behalf, but he would do anything for Harry, even beg. Snape the betrayer, Snape the murderer, executing Dumbledore before Dumbledore could fully prepare Harry, truly leaves Harry on his own; unprepared to face, let alone defeat Voldemort. And with only his friends to aid him, he will be precisely, I believe, where JKR wants him to be. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kking0731 at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 02:35:56 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:35:56 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137472 jujube: > Marvolo is many horrible things, but the things he tells us in the > scene we see are true: he is the descendant of Salazar Slytherin, > that is the ring of Slytherin and that is the Slytherin locket. > Should we doubt his characterization of his daughter? > > Also, the Lexicon says Squibs have "such a low level of magical > power that they are essentially unable to do any magic at > all." "A low level of magical power" is not the same as no > magical power at atll. While Merope does do some magic, it is > completely useless magic, and probably the little she can do is a > function of the extremely powerful wizarding skills that are in > her family (for I believe Marvolo and Morfin, as disgusting as > they are, are powerful wizards). Jen: I snipped to this point, jujube, because I think we could probably split hairs arguing the other points without making any headway. I've re-read the quote from JKR several times now and *do* see your interpretation, if you view all of JKR's answer as being connected to the question. I view her answer as a two-part thing, the first line "No, is the answer" as the answer to the actual question, and the rest an extrapolation on the subject of developing powers later in life. The "quite late in life" part continues to trip me up for identifying Merope as the late-bloomer. Even considering magical age and not chronological, 20 does not seem 'quite late in life' to me, and I can't shake that perception. This is a new thought on Marvolo, though, and you won't be surprised I read his character very differently, and probably the entire scene. First, Dumbledore had this to say about Merope: "I think you are forgetting," said Dumbledore, "that Merope was a witch." (chap. 10, p. 213, US). As JKR's mouthpiece, that's probably the most salient canon point of how we should view Merope. You stated we should believe Marvolo's assessment of Merope as a Squib because although he shows many faults, he hasn't proven himself to be a liar. That's very true. And I don't think he's *lying* when he says his opinion is that Merope is a Squib. He's obviously extremely attached to his Slytherin heritage and artifacts, more than his daughter anyway, and all of the 'truths' he mentions are verifiable facts except for the one opinion in the mix-- Merope's magical power. Either he is completely blind to the fact that his threats and verbal abuse are the primary cause of his daughter's diminished powers, or he doesn't really care and gets satisfaction out of bullying her. Either way, we can't verify from Marvolo's words and Merope's one act of magic that she is, without question, a Squib. So I think Merope has always been a witch, albeit one with diminished powers due to circumstance. I'm certain Marvolo convinced *Merope* she was a Squib, though. Which makes her bid for power when he's carted off to Azkaban all the more satisfying because she proves to herself that her father's opinions were just that and nothing more. Snow: Just something I thought I would throw into the pot about Merope and the accusation from her father that she was a squib. Marvolo and his son could both speak parceltongue (and appeared to use it almost as a first language) but as far as we know Merope didn't have this particular gift inherited from the Slytherin line. Marvolo may have felt that Merope was less than magical because she didn't possess this gift, which is why he referred to her as a squib. Anyone born into his family that didn't have the gift of parceltongue was not magical, at least not to the pure Slytherin line that may have always possessed this particular capability. Merope may have been able to speak it and just didn't partake, to basically piss dad off, but one things certain she sure as heck passed it on to her son Tommy. My interest in Merope is what young Tom had to comment about his mom: "My mother can't have been magic, or she wouldn't have died." Pg. 275 HBP U.S. I do believe that Merope was indeed magical, as Jen has pointed out, so why would she have died during childbirth Or did she? Could she still be alive? There are enough old bitties out there that may have changed their name, like Arabella Figg who's house smells like cabbage (like the apothecary that indeed must dabble in potions making), who is also known to be a squib (like Merope was once accused of but was magical enough to make a love potion to give to Tom Sr.). Curious and Curiouser Then again I've always questioned his mother's death. Just my opinion, as always Snow From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 03:11:50 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 03:11:50 -0000 Subject: Genetics In-Reply-To: <20050813030844.85584.qmail@web53115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137474 I'm reposting this message since I sent it without a Subject. Sorry, I'll delete the first one. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > I was just on The Leaky Cauldron and I found this link: > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7052/full/436776a.html > > It solves our eternal dilema of wizarding genetics. Although It doesn't solve the Squib question, according to the author it's just because a lack of penetrance. > > Wizards or witches can be of any race, and may be the offspring of a wizard and a witch, the offspring of two muggles ('muggle-born'), or of mixed ancestry ('half-blood'). > > This suggests that wizarding ability is inherited in a mendelian fashion, with the wizard allele (W) being recessive to the muggle allele (M). According to this hypothesis, all wizards and witches therefore have two copies of the wizard allele (WW). Harry's friends Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom and his arch-enemy Draco Malfoy are 'pure-blood' wizards: WW with WW ancestors for generations back. Harry's friend Hermione is a powerful muggle-born witch (WW with WM parents). Their classmate Seamus is a half-blood wizard, the son of a witch and a muggle (WW with one WW and one WM parent). Harry (WW with WW parents) is not considered a pure-blood, as his mother was muggle-born. > > There may even be examples of incomplete penetrance (Neville has poor wizarding skills) and possible mutations or questionable paternity: Filch, the caretaker, is a 'squib', someone born into a wizarding family but with no wizarding powers of their own. > > > > Juli > Aol: jlnbtr > Yahoo: jlnbtr From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 03:11:54 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 03:11:54 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: <20050812195013.86562.qmail@web30313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137475 D wrote: Really, >I can't see how JKR can pull this "love power" thing through the >everyman Harry other than your cliche mushy 'all those who loves me >stand behind me to combine our collective super love power to >strike final blow to the lonely unlovable villain' way. >And yeah some people do find that so moving, interesting and ? >dramatic... > >Agape? Harry?...whatever.... >Would be great but just don't see it, totally OOC! Harry is not >that great and loving. Saraquel: Thank you D, reading your post has really confirmed for me what I suspected in my first post on this subject ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/messages/136797 ) that Harry (or anyone for that matter) doesn't have, cannot have, and therefore cannot express the awesome Last Judgement type Love needed to vanquish Voldemort. This is why we need the Room of Love in the DOMysteries. Let's face it, if anyone was going to be able to conquer Voldemort using their own love it would have to be DD ? but DD is not the one to do it, and he knows it. (And if, according to JKR in one of her interviews, DD is not Jesus, then Harry certainly isn't!) If either, getting Voldemort into the Room of Love, or channelling the love in that room, simply was enough to destroy him, then isn't that what DD would have been trying to do for all the years that Voldemort was around before, and for the past 2 book years. It has to be Harry, and the only reason that I can see that makes it Harry not DD are the things DD values as Harry's uniqueness ? the blood that runs in his veins from Lily's sacrifice, which because of the end of GoF now runs in Voldemort's veins, and somehow Harry's ability to choose to love against all odds. (Although I still think he has a way to go before he actually fulfils that potential. See my last post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137386 which provides a lot of background to this post, which might help you to follow where I'm going and why I'm going there.) As a small digression: it makes me wonder about DD accrediting this last thing to Harry, should he not also credit it to himself? I have always interpreted JKR's intentions with Harry's character to be that he is *ordinary* (yes, he has special features, but we all do). For me, the point of making him, most definitely not a super- hero, is to show that if we make the right *choices*, all of us have the potential to reflect/connect-with the real and awesome power of love. >D wrote: >This sounds all beautiful and all, but somehow I just can't see >Harry being all that beautiful as a person, despite his >extraodinary power is supposed to be *love*. Yup I'm just not >convinced at all Harry is that great. So far in the book Harry has >shown extremely limited capacity of "love" for those who are >unlovable (or those who are not nice to him). Saraquel: This is such a good point. I'm wondering if the point here is, it is not *right* to have warm, fuzzy, gentle feelings for someone whose actions are evil. Harry, IMO, should not and cannot have this simple sort of love for either Snape or Voldemort. I think this is born out by the all important Horcrux chapter, when Harry contemplates whether he would want to go after Voldemort if he had never heard the prophecy. Uk ed HBP p478 "He thought of his mother, his father and Sirius. He thought of Cedric Diggory. He thought of all the terrible deeds he knew Lord Voldemort had done. A flame seemed to leap inside his chest, searing his throat. "I'd want him finished,' said Harry quietly. "And I'd want to do it." It seems to me that this is motivated, not by the desire for revenge, but by notions of justice. It is righteous anger and not vengeance that Harry is feeling. It comes out quietly and with determination, not with the anger of vengeance. Harry wants Voldemort finished, not tortured and made to suffer eternal torment. Remember in the battle scene at the end of OotP, Bellatrix says to Harry after he has tried the cruciatus curse out on her ? "Never used an Unforgiveable Curse before, have you boy' she yelled. `You need to *mean* them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to enjoy it ? righteous anger won't hurt me for long " Harry may have been using the cruciatus curse out of righteous anger at that point, but I suspect that when he tries to use it 3? Times on Snape at the end of HBP, he is out for revenge and motivated by hatred or more specifically p564 "Kill me then,' panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt". And as I speculated in my last post (link to this is above) He is going to have to conquer that one. So now, I get to the relationship between our choices and the Last Judgement Love that I speculate is in the Room of Love at the Ministry. I don't know if I'm going to be able to provide cannon references for this ? I do think it is very important to provide cannon to support my musings, and I hope that so far in this thread, I've put together enough cannon to support my arguments. Anyway, let's see. To summarise: 1)WE all seem to agree that warm fuzzy human love won't hack the defeat of Voldemort. 2)DD has repeatedly stressed the importance of choice. 3)DD has told us that the love in the Room at the MOM is awesome in its power. 4)Harry is not an overtly special wizard, and definitely not as powerful as DD. 5) Both Harry and Voldemort have traces of Lily's very special sacrifice in their blood. 6)DD thinks that Harry's ability to love despite the wrongs he has endured at the hands of other, extremely unique and special. I think all these things are key to the final defeat of Voldemort, (except perhaps 4) which I believe will happen at the end of book 7. The key bit which needs more thought as far as I'm concerned, is the exact nature of Lily's sacrifice and the special significance of this in terms of what Harry and Voldemort are carrying in their blood. With the evidence we have at the moment, I'm quite prepared to accept that it will probably not be possible to work that one out, and therefore this essential ingredient is missing from the mix. As I said above, it is the only thing which Harry has that DD doesn't, (I think DD has the ability to love despite everything) and it is this which must make Harry able to conquer Voldemort, where DD, the much more powerful wizard, cannot. Having said that, I'm going to speculate anyway :-) Well, what's a list like this for, if not the chance for a good speculation! I've just picked up Jen's latest post ? love it. >Jen wrote: >Each time he attempts to thwart or kill Harry by deeply evil means, >the rejection seems to increase Harry's 'ability to love' in the >sense that he grows more & more able to repel Voldemort. > >Harry also seems to increases in his ability to draw magical help to >himself, and not always in the form of a more skilled wizard, >either. Saraquel: Yes, this would be a good road to go down, that Voldemort's repeated attempts to defeat Harry increase the power that Harry can draw from Lily's sacrifice, and presumably, through Voldemort taking Harry's blood, have the opposite effect on Voldemort. Yet another instance of Voldemort empowering his enemy! Love it. I was just about to speculate on whether, as Harry grows more *right* in his choices, so he increases his ability to draw Love from the Room of Love ? (or perhaps, the Love in the Room of Love is more able to work through him) and there you go, Jen's just posted something very akin to that! For me the important thing is that the Awesome Power of our speculative Last Judgement Love is kept locked up in a room at all times. It is separate. I don't think that we are going to open that door and find a little old witch/wizard sitting in a chair with a cup of tea in her/his hand. I think that it is not something which the likes of us mortals can embody. So Harry is never going to become the equivalent of god and wield almighty judgement over Voldemort. But I do think that Harry will be an instrument in that love judging Voldemort and destroying the evil within him. The jury is out for me as to whether Voldemort will survive this encounter in a physical body ? I suspect not and the prophecy, twisted knots though it is does say that one of them must *die* at the hand of the other. That Lily's sacrifice and what's in Harry's blood will play the deciding part I have absolutely no doubt. I'm still with the theory, or something close to it that I posted at the start of this thread http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136797 If the final defeat of Voldemort does not happen actually in the room of love, with Harry being able to survive, then it will happen in a way that the Love in the Room uses Harry to complete its purifying purpose because either Harry or indirectly Lily through her sacrifice can connect to that Love without fear. Valky's comments in her great post about Snape and the Marauders, >"first though, he has to face the kind of love that will bear these >consequences out on him and allow him to see what he truly is. The >kind of Love that Harry will need to bring to Voldemort." Make it so clear, to me anyway, that the ability to face the truth about oneself is the key to whether you welcome or fear Last Judgement Love and probably whether you survive it or it destroys you. I think that Harry's ability to love despite everything, may in fact be the gift from Lily's sacrifice. That she chose to die for him, despite being offered the opportunity not to, and in doing so put her love above every other emotion or opportunity that life can offer. I suspect that Harry will win out in the end, but I also suspect that in Harry's mind (if not necessarily in the minds of those around him) he will maintain the same attitude that he has always had after his encounters with Voldemort ? it wasn't anything special about him that did it. He had help, luck etc on his side. In my interpretation of the book, Harry needs to remain ordinary right through to the end. Harry will realise that he only survived because when faced with a choice, he did what DD told him to do, and chose what was right over what was easy and this is a capacity we all have ? we all have free will. And because he did that, he was able to channel/harness the awesome power of love. Well I really think I should stop here, and thank you for bearing with me, if you're still reading this. Saraquel From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 03:20:59 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 03:20:59 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137476 Valky wrote: > It is being revealed that Snape and Lily were comrades of > a sort, both members of the Slug Club and both extraordinary > students. Snape could not have kept from himself forever that > "Mudblood" was just a dirty word while he was so clearly exposed to > the contradiction. colebiancardi: where is that revealed? Snape was a member of the Slugclub? Do you have a page number? The only thing we do know is that Slughorn was the head of house in Slytherin & Snape was in that house. Where is it that Snape & Lily were *comrades* of a sort? They were in advanced potions - but who is to say their relationship wasn't more of a Draco/Hermoine type? Potioncat: Were Lily and Severus comrades? Perhaps no more than Hermione and Cormac. colebiancardi: Who the heck is Cormac? LOL Valky now: Ooops sorry cole, my bad, you're right. I should rephrase that to say that *hints appear to be* revealing that they were comrades of a sort. The main thrust of that point is that Snape was exposed to the contradiction of "Mudblood" through Lily, at the very least from a short distance in the potions class where they both performed to remarkable levels, and in likelihood as comrades of a sort given Sluggy's pet habit of bringing the more brilliant students together in a club. Basically what follows for me from here is that: were Snape purely brutally honest with himself, his snap at Lily about being a "Filthy little Mudblood" could not be justified by what was likely his experiences with her. And the point I was leaning to in my post were what would be consequential of Snape being brutally honest with himself. The Draco-Hermione relationship, it most likely wasn't since in the Pensieve scene Lily seems to perceive Snape as a fairly guileless individual before he says it. A Cormac-Hermine relationship probably fits better, actually, as Hermione ended up quite surprised to find that Cormac became the giant squid when you got too close. ;D Which is a little more like what happened in the Pensieve. Oh yeah, and Cormac is the one with the bad temper and wandering hands, who Hermione took to Sluggy's party when she was in the mood for antagonising Ron. Saraquel: In the Horcrux chapter DD spends a long time getting Harry to understand that he is making a choice to face Voldemort, and that Harry's power lies in making that choice. If Harry continues to think that he must face Voldemort because the prophecy tells him that is his fate, then he becomes, IMO and I think DDs opinion (if I'm reading it right), Voldemort's victim. Whether he defeats Voldemort or not, he is the victim of Voldemort's choice to pursue the prophecy. Some of his power would not be directed outwards on the task in hand, but inwards. His power would not be illuminating his will to do the task, but feeding his resentment of why me? So his attention would not be in the present, but in the past, on the history of the prophecy and everything connected with it. Only by connecting with his choices of the present can he access the power that he has within himself. Jen: Not everyone is impressed with Dumbledore's assertion that Harry's power and protection is his ability to love. It seems like a pretty dubious ability in the face of a well-placed AK. I'm wondering if Dumbledore means something a bit more magical when he says Harry's power is his ability to love. What if he's not referring to love in Harry's day-to-day actions or his 'saving people thing' or even Agape love, but is instead referring to a magical transformation which took place when Lily's loving sacrifice clashed with Voldemort's evil curse and both came to reside in not only Harry's blood, but in his very skin? Valky: I just had to put these two together here. :D I think that from different ends you're both approaching the same point, Yeah? As I see it you are both referring to an innate partially magical partially pure goodness power residing in Harry. I see a parrallel in here to the Felix Felicis potion, and the placebo effect on Ron. >From Jens end there is a Felix Felicis and Saraquel approaches from the placebo end. Meeting in the middle we have something that I think could look like the final confrontation in a more literal sense than we had talked about before. >From the approach that Saraquel took, we are seeing that inside Harry there is this magical power - to access this power Harry must remove his doubts and bad feelings. And like Ron can live the effects of Felix through his self belief Harry can access this magic within him through his emotional journey. Actually all the HP series finales seem to have something of this theme in them anyway. For example conjuring the Patronus in POA - Harry says he knew he could do it, because he already had. Now the *other* thing that all the HP finales have is a literal object of magic; like the Time Turner, the Mirror or the Priori incantatem. So this is Jens approach, the *real* 'Felix Felicis' because it does actually exist and it does have a literal background in HP existence. Now Jen said above that this magic could be a transformation that took place when the sacrifice crossed with the curse and it now resides as a purely magical force in Harry. While Saraquel proposes that Harry can also use this force against himself if he directs it incorrectly and becomes tied to the emotions that point it inward and hold him back, such as revenge seeking, and feelings of resentment. So now here is my proposal. I agree with both of you. An instance of how it could look, is something like this. First we have the *real* Felix. Its Harry's blood, the blood that connects him to his mother and is filled with this very magical power. I have long believed that DD's gleam was because he knew Voldemort took Harry's blood because of it's magical power, so he percieved it as something he could *use* which is true, but Voldemort fails to recognise what is also true about this power. Something else about it which Voldemort refuses to acknowledge in his adage that there is *only power*. Ok I don't really have a clue what it is, but that's what I have always thought it was about. Next we have the placebo effect, which is Harry's ability to Love. And like Ron, Harry can access it without incantations or actual magic potions, because it is within himself all the time.Someone earlier quoted DD that Harry is not inclined to the powers that Voldemort has given him, while others would 'kill' to have such power because it can be used for domination and control, Harry thinks nothing of it and is not tempted to control or dominate anything. And here we see how the two connect. This innate magic in Harry's blood is a very great magic, like the miiror of erised and the Philosophers stone, but there is a difference between Harry and Voldemort a very great difference. Like with the PS, Harry will risk everything to find it not caring what he'll do next just that he must find it first or Voldemort will. And Voldemort will realise what power he possesses in his blood and he will seek to use it for himself. That is where the placebo effect comes in most strongly. Harry's emotional journey is all important here because he has something just beyond the power that they fight with, he has this faith like Ron on the Quidditch field, that he can win this one. And thats just enough to tip the scales. Wow I really liked bringing those two posts together Jen and Saraquel, it really made a lot of sense to me. :D One more thing: Saraquel Who is contemplating writing a PhD on The Concept of Choice in the Harry Potter Universe : You know, Saraquel. That would be one awesome dissertation to read, despite that it might seem like an overstatement from me, I think that Jo's series shares an immense wisdom and philosophy with her readers. Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 04:15:25 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 04:15:25 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: <20050812195013.86562.qmail@web30313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137477 D: I've been reading this thread with great interesting (great posts Valky and Mari), it seems to me somehow, you're suggesting that this ulimate 'love' thing in this series has to do with Harry and Snape, as in all the hate and complicated conflicts that's been contribute to these two's relationship throughout the entire series is all a build up for this finale "agape love conquer evil" thing? The greatest love power that involves Harry and Snape? That Harry and Snape is the heart of it all? Valky: I am glad you asked that, D, because I really do think I *should* qualify my bringing of Snape into this correctly. You're right, it is not that Snape and Harry are the heart of this adventure. What I meant by Snape being an extension of Harry was a lot more general than it sounded. To qualify I shuld revisit that statement and correct it to say that in my interpretation Snape is *one* extension of Harry among many in the layers of the story who follow their own sine wave of emotional growth. The reason that Snape is a more fascinating one is that his position is a period lag (still talking about sine waves) in a similar equation to Harry's. So to say, that Snape, although on a /different wavelength (now incorrectly using the sine analogy)/ to Harry parrallels Harry in this aspect of his journey. The journey toward this greater Love. For Snape is a journey of redemption and healing, for Harry it is a journey of liberation and victory, and that is the key difference between them. I think, there are different ends for each of them. But they walk a similar path, Snape perhaps more slowly and in larger steps, than Harry. This is why I felt it was useful to refer to Snape's journey in understanding Harry's. And I agree I made somewhat unqualified statements in trying to establish that this was my end of doing so. Thanks for asking. :D D: As oppose to...you know...the greatest ideal equal perfect love that is Harry and Ginny? I think most people would expect/want the later. The Snape's key involvement in Harry's "love power" in defeating LV would greatly upset all those rabid Snape-haters and those who were expecting Harry/Ginny (and his friends/dead parents), let alone Snape being the key of it...there'd be outrage. Oh darn that thunder-stealing Snape...after you stole LV thunder you have to... (I would applaud JKR if she go that way, but I don't think she's that unconventional). Valky: Yes I agree, and in fact I did post earlier on the *equal* Love beteewn Harry and Ginny earlier up thread. I personally doubt, also, that JKR would dissappoint half of fandom by not bringing the many coloured rainbow of Love to the end scene and replacing it with the man in black. That would be very anticlimax for too many of us. Essentially I think that the Snape and Harry story will cross its final path before the final confrontationbetween HP LV, but I have no qualms with saying that it will be extraordinarily poignant and meaningful, because the parrallel connection between Harry and Snape has reached boiling point after HBP, I think. It would be just wrong wrong wrong to take him off the stove now right before the the whistle goes off. metaphorically y'know. :D Valky earlier: > I still wonder if anyone else was piqued, like me, to read the > passage about Snape appearing to be in as much pain as the *Dog* > (Fang) stuck in the building behind them. I thought this was a clear > allusion to Sirius, myself, very very cleverly inserted into the > most profound moments between Snape and Harry of the whole book. D: I thought that was ridiculously obvious (along with the parallelization between Snape and Harry in their scenes of "sacrificing" DD under DD's demand). But hey what do you know, reading the list and I'm surprise to find all these people who's completely blind to these literary clues. Valky: Thankyou for replying to that, D. Yeah I thought it was brilliantly obvious too, and I noticed it before I noticed the similarity between the "hatred and repulsion" scenes. To me it seemed to suggest a link between DD's death and Sirius' death also. I am definitely of the opinion that to some end they both chose a higher purpose to help Harry's quest, and that these scenes suggest that Snape has truly joined them in that. D: And you're not the only one who notice that abnormal 'quantity" of time Snape and Harry actually spent together in their boring and uneventful detentions. Why would Snape do that? What's that about? (I would have mark that as another waste of pages on mundane daily life details that are totally non-matter that's been junking this book, but then it's Snape...hmm...) Valky: I am only vaguely attached to the thoughts I posted on this. I think from a philosophical standpoint it makes sense that Snape is facing his demons in Harry and is all the more a brave man for choosing to do so. But I am sure there is a very very literal way to interpret it too, which would run a similar vein, I just haven't thought of it myself. I am extremely open to suggestions about that. Thanks for your reply D. :D From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 13 06:15:08 2005 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:15:08 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" Big snippage of excellent reply/reply> > D: > And you're not the only one who notice that abnormal 'quantity" of > time Snape and Harry actually spent together in their boring and > uneventful detentions. Why would Snape do that? What's that about? (I > would have mark that as another waste of pages on mundane daily life > details that are totally non-matter that's been junking this book, > but then it's Snape...hmm...) > > Valky: > I am only vaguely attached to the thoughts I posted on this. I think > from a philosophical standpoint it makes sense that Snape is facing > his demons in Harry and is all the more a brave man for choosing to do > so. But I am sure there is a very very literal way to interpret it > too, which would run a similar vein, I just haven't thought of it > myself. I am extremely open to suggestions about that. > Sue(hpfan) who has rarely visited the list lately is intrigued by this. Notice too, that Snape had Harry run through the boxes of all of the Maurauder's misdeeds. How many times did he run across something like "James et all attacked S. Snape and left him haning upside down in the boys bathroom" or the like. It ties into another thing Snape said before he left the grounds about James needing to be surrounded by 3 friends before he would attack Snape (don't have the book for exact quote). It seems to be very important to Snape to be sure Harry knows this side of his father (not that he needed to learn any more since the Pensieve). It makes me wonder if there was something in the files that would lead Harry to another piece of information he needs to complete his task. What else is in Filch's files other than the Marauder's map? Sue(hpfan) who is glad others noticed all of the parallels between what happened to Harry and Snape at the end of the book. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 13 06:30:31 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:30:31 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > I think the most important Trelawny moment in HBP was when > Dumbledore told Harry that she needs to be kept at Hogwarts because > she'll be in great danger from Voldemort if she leaves. Now that > Dumbledore is dead and Snape has fled, is Harry the only one on the > good side who knows that Trelawny made the prophecy? I suspect her > protection will be one more responsibility for him to deal with in Book 7. I think that there are plenty of clues that Trelawny is set to leave Hogwarts. She is dissatisfied there, she feels her place is overtaken by Firenze, even her most adoring students (such as Parvaty or Lavender) prefer him to her. The school will either be closed or be run by McGonnagal, who expressed contempt for the subject - and to Sybil - throughout the books. I doubt that McGonnagal (or others in the staff, except Snape of course) are aware that she has to be protected, so even if they may not fire her, they will not stop her from leaving. Once she is out, it is just a matter of time until Voldemort gets his hands on her and applies to her what he did to Bertha Jorkins (I think that's the name - the witch who was tortured to death on GoF). I don't know if he could get anything if she did not consciously make prophecies, but he will surely try. If he succeeds, he'll have the full contents of both. On that note, I also view the wandmaker's disappearance as Voldemort's attempt to figure out how to overcome the wand problem. Perhaps Olivander will be forced to make him a new wand. Salit From samwisep at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 06:53:15 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:53:15 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137480 > "ongj87" wrote: > No doubt most of us are very certain that one of the Weasley's will > be leaving us forever in the next book, if not more than one. Mrs. > Weasley's woes (OoP) are not negligible. > > Anybody got any clues as to who it might be? I thought before I read HPB that the Weasley that would be killed would be Molly Weasley.I was actually pretty surprised when it turned out to be Dumbledore. The reason why I feel MW won't live until the end of the book is, JKR has consistantly ripped all parental figures away from Harry(Ie: Sirus, Dumbledore etc)Now, of course these were paternal figures, but I think the one maternal figure in his life will be killed off also. Not a nice thought, but I am convinced it will happen. Snapeo'phile From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 07:19:37 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:19:37 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137481 **snip*** I thought before I read HPB that the Weasley that would be killed > would be Molly Weasley.I was actually pretty surprised when it turned > out to be Dumbledore. The reason why I feel MW won't live until the > end of the book is, JKR has consistantly ripped all parental figures > away from Harry(Ie: Sirus, Dumbledore etc)Now, of course these were > paternal figures, but I think the one maternal figure in his life will > be killed off also. Not a nice thought, but I am convinced it will > happen. > > Snapeo'phile I still believe that Molly will die... Before HBP I thought everyone or atleast most everyone in her bogart scene would die... they did not....hence it leaves molly...in my miniscule mind.. From tab1669 at elnet.com Fri Aug 12 20:41:15 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:41:15 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT Harry's father. WAS: Re: backstory "explanations" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137482 A Featheringstonehaughwrote: > After Hogwarts, Lily and Snape continue their relationship, and she learns of his secret career. Lily becomes pregnant. Big worries > because Snape - now deeply entrenched in his clandestine work - > cannot be known to be involved with this Mudblood who has crossed LV before (we don't yet know how) and the couple fear for their safety as well as that of their child. They turn to Dumbledore... and > James. The marriage with Potter is hastily arranged; casual friends and family believing they "had" to get married. Alla: > I think the sentence "James is DEFINITELY Harry's father" answers it, no? flyingmonkeypurle now: Also How does this explain the way Snape treats Harry at school? Is Snape going to tell Harry one day that he is his father? Snape will say, "I treated you like poo for six years because I had to. It was your mother's idea. I love you Harry." Harry would be like get away from me. This would kill him if this were true. Snape, Harry's father I THINK NOT. flyingmonkeypurple, thinks Snape having a relationship with any women is Ewww From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 04:40:24 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 04:40:24 -0000 Subject: Molly's Woes: (WAS: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137483 > > Bookworm: > We don't know what Molly saw before Harry arrived, > but the only two Harry didn't see were Charlie and Ginny. IMO that > is significant, but why? I haven't figured out. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm In the Wizarding World Press book about OotP, they ask this very question. They have no idea either, but could this mean that Mrs. Weasly thinks that Charlie and Ginny are the most talented? Or the least likely to be watched by LV? Ginny is a very gifted witch, as we've seen over the years (she even caught Slughorn's eye) and perhaps Charlie's interest in dragons makes him not that attractive to LV, either to try to convert him to the dark side, or he might not seem like that big of a threat. Of course, the twins are talented, but not in a way Molly sees as important. Rachel From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 04:50:13 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 04:50:13 -0000 Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 - Kreacher in the cave! In-Reply-To: <20050812211853.34073.qmail@web32106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137484 Dave wrote: Does it make sense to introduce such an important character into the story at this point? It's a bit of a deus ex machina, if you ask me. Usually, the big twists are best when you could have known all along if you'd followed the clues. This one was out of left field. Rachel now: I don't think it's at all out of left field that she introduces Regulus as a more important character. JK loves to tell us one little thing and then bring it back in a huge way. For example: the twins making fun of Professor Quirrell's turban and his silly answer about it that they didn't believe, Ginny squealing about her diary being left behind in book two, Peter Pettigrew losing a finger and that Scabbers all along was missing a toe, learing about polyjuice potion in book two and it reappearing in book four...sorry, it's just endless. If you read the Wizarding World Press's The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter, one of their rules is "never take a character's word for it." They also have two corallaries to this "Hermione is always right, except when there's emotion involved," and "Ron is always wrong, except when he's joking." I had a feeling Regulus was more important than Sirius thought he was. Anyway, it would be cool if Kreacher was the one to drink the poison. But, wouldn't his mistress still have been in charge of him? Are we assuming that Mrs. Black died before Regulus joined the DE? Sirius says, "My parents thought he was a right little hero for joining up at first." Or something similar...I'm paraphrasing. It cannot be that Mrs. Black would have been trying to defeat LV, can it??? From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 05:03:26 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 05:03:26 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137485 > Snow said: There are enough old bitties out there that may have > changed their name, like Arabella Figg who's house smells like > cabbage (like the apothecary that indeed must dabble in potions > making), who is also known to be a squib (like Merope was once > accused of but was magical enough to make a love potion to give to > Tom Sr.). I wondered about the cabbage smell thing. Doesn't polyjuice potion smell of cooked cabbages? When I read this, I kind of flipped out, but I have no idea why/who would want to impersonate a squib. Unless someone was trying to get/stay close to Dumbledore and the Order...or close to Harry. LV's mom must be pretty old though...and if she is still alive, why is she still underground? Why would she have gone underground at all? Did she think that Tom would come back for his son, and that somehow they'd be reunited as a family? Would she have secretly watched her son all these years, then been horrified at what he'd beome and tried to fight against him? It is an interesting question. Rachel From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 08:01:22 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:01:22 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137486 Great post Valky, I just wish I'd had it before I wrote the post I posted 10 minutes before you posted this one!! (Sorry if that sounds convoluted, even I had to read it twice to understand what I meant.) You have really advanced my thinking on the significance of Lily's blood, which I was struggling with and also brought in the significance of FF, which I felt must be important but couldn't see quite how. You picked up and expanded on the significance I missed in Jen's post. Here's my immediate reaction: >Jen wrote: >I'm wondering if Dumbledore means something a bit more magical when >he says Harry's power is his ability to love. What if he's not >referring to love in Harry's day-to-day actions or his 'saving >people thing' or even Agape love, but is instead referring to a >magical transformation which took place when Lily's loving sacrifice >clashed with Voldemort's evil curse and both came to reside in not >only Harry's blood, but in his very skin? >Valky wrote: >As I see it you are both referring to an innate partially magical >partially pure goodness power residing in Harry. >I see a parrallel in here to the Felix Felicis potion, and the >placebo effect on Ron. From Jen's end there is a Felix Felicis and >Saraquel approaches from the placebo end. Saraquel: Clarifying here. So are we now saying that we have an actual physically manifested piece (for want of a better word) of the Power of Last Judgement Love that we have been talking about in Harry's blood? If the parallels to JKR's faith are in play here (I believe she said that no-one after reading the end of the series could be in any doubt about her faith.) Then Lily's choice could have paralleled Christ's choice. I say that with the greatest caution, as I in no way wish to offend anyone. The last thing that I wish to imply is that Lily is Christ in some way, especially as I do not adhere to Christianity or any other religion, but have great respect for all faiths. But perhaps it parallels it in some way. That Lily's choice, whatever it was, was a redemptive choice. It was a choice which offered hope to everyone. It was a choice which, when crossed with Voldemort's curse, (which was an action to destroy hope and allow evil to reign supreme,) invoked an *Action* by the Awesome Purifying/Judgemental type of Love that is in the locked room. (which I think is the type of love which is beyond normal human capacity.) Just to explain the Voldemort's curse bit. Voldemort was well on the way to immortality, the prophecy says Harry is the one to destroy Voldemort, if Voldemort kills Harry, Evil lives forever. If this is so, then it is possible that because of Lily's sacrifice, Harry is actually carrying around some of this Love within him. So we might have some of that Love outside the locked room. This possibly releases *me*, at any rate from having to place the final confrontation in the Room at the Department of Mysteries, although I still think it would be a good place to have it! (I just can't seem to let go of that one :-) ) Now onto the next bit. I'm not feeling that I'm getting anywhere clear with this post, but I'll carry on in the hope that by writing it, someone will be able to pick it up and get to where we should be going. >Valky wrote: >I have long >believed that DD's gleam was because he knew Voldemort took Harry's >blood because of it's magical power, so he percieved it as something >he could *use* which is true, but Voldemort fails to recognise what >is also true about this power. Something else about it which >Voldemort refuses to acknowledge in his adage that there is *only >power*. Ok I don't really have a clue what it is, but that's what I >have always thought it was about. Saraquel: I'm wondering if we are talking free-will here. Voldemort thinks (see my choices post on Voldemort's weakness) that he can remove people's free will by intimidation. IMO, this is why he says there is only power. We really need to work out exactly what Voldemort thinks taking Harry's blood will allow him to do. Obviously he thinks he will now be able to kill Harry, because he feels that he has broken through the defensive shield that was in his blood. But *why* does he think having Harry's blood circulating in him will disable this shield? What does Voldemort think the shield consists of? Or does he think that he is now protected by the shield as well and therefore he can't be killed? I really feel like I'm missing something really simple here, and when someone points it out I'm going to have a Doh! Moment. >Valky wrote: >Next we have the placebo effect, which is Harry's ability to Love. >And like Ron, Harry can access it without incantations or actual >magic potions, because it is within himself all the time. Saraquel: Loved that bit, Valky. The search for wandless magic ? it's been a bit of a holy grail on the list hasn't it! >Valky wrote: >Someone earlier >quoted DD that Harry is not inclined to the powers that Voldemort >has given him, while others would 'kill' to have such power because >it can be used for domination and control, Harry thinks nothing of >it and is not tempted to control or dominate anything. And here we >see how the two connect. This innate magic in Harry's blood is a >very great magic, like the miiror of erised and the Philosophers >stone, but there is a difference between Harry and Voldemort a very >great difference. Saraquel: Absolutely agree, see my bit above. >Valky wrote: >Like with the PS, Harry will risk everything to find it not caring >what he'll do next just that he must find it first or Voldemort >will. And Voldemort will realise what power he possesses in his >blood and he will seek to use it for himself. That is where the >placebo effect comes in most strongly. Harry's emotional journey is >all important here because he has something just beyond the power >that they fight with, he has this faith like Ron on the Quidditch >field, that he can win this one. And thats just enough to tip the >scales. Saraquel: I feel that we are so close to something here Valky ? hope you don't mind me saying we, but for me, this thread has been built up bit by bit though everyone's contributions. After reading this bit, I was thinking something on the lines of: Harry has the faith that he can win, not because HE wants to win, but because he has faith in making the choice of what is right over what is easy, and he has nothing to gain personally. It is a selfless act. So like I said above, we really need to work out what is going on in Voldemort's mind about the blood aspect and that should give us more insight into how the final battle is going to shape up. Just a quick thought about another part of the theme. I really am with you about the next meeting between Snape and Harry being of immense importance to both of them, and that it will teach Harry the final lesson in his choices journey, IMO that he has to renounce vengeance is he is going to defeat Voldemort. I'm going to leave it there and ponder some more. Oh yes, just two last things, when you snipped my PhD quote, you snipped off the smiley face at the end. It was a joke, but I do agree with you wholeheartedly. The more I think about this theme, the more impressed I am at JKR's foundation for her work, and the subtlety of the story that she has woven around it! And secondly, the fact that Lily was muggle born, yet it is her blood which is so powerfully magical, is a nice touch in the pure blood prejudice theme. Saraquel From j_samudio at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 05:11:19 2005 From: j_samudio at hotmail.com (Jo Marelvy Samudio) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 05:11:19 -0000 Subject: Draco and the imperius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137487 In the tower scene before the DE's arrive, DD asks Draco "...Rosmerta. How long has she been under the Imperius Curse?" Malfoy did imperiused Madam Rosmerta, right? At least since Katie was given the necklace, so how come there were no owls with warning about underage use of magic? Does this mean that Malfoy had already turned 17 by the time he performed the Imperius on Rosmerta? We do know that he is taking the apparition course, so he must be turning 17 by the end of August. If he had not yet turned 17, and an owl with the undarage use of magic warning was to be sent, where would it arrive? Hogsmade? Hogwarts? We now know that although the MM cannot possibly know who in fact performed the underage magic, they anyway know that some was performed and DO send an owl. Any ideas? Does anyone happen to know when Draco's birthday is? Jomarelvy From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 08:14:52 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:14:52 -0000 Subject: Molly's Woes: (WAS: Neville's new wand/ unicorn hair?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137488 > > Bookworm: > Harry saw, in this order, Ron, Bill, Arthur, the Twins, Percy, > Harry/himself. We don't know what Molly saw before Harry arrived, > but the only two Harry didn't see were Charlie and Ginny. IMO that > is significant, but why? I haven't figured out. Finwitch: Well... here's my theory-- Ginny: Harry saved him from Tom Riddles' (first?) Diary which nearly killed her. She's BEEN in mortal peril already... as for Charlie: Dragons/Quidditch. Maybe Charlie, too, has already survived a near-death? At least he's had a burn. Or maybe he made an Unbreakable Vow to get a Norwegian Ridgeback for his boss and Harry saved him by sending Norbert off... Ron: Well, he's been there as well - and in HBP he *was* poisoned, and probably killed if Harry hadn't given him the bezoar. If I were Harry/Ron/Hermione, I'd have bezoars in my pockets at all times... (too bad Harry didn't have one to give Dumbledore. Maybe it would have helped with that poison, as RAB left it, not Voldemort) Arthur: Snake-incident Bill: bitten by a werewolf (so - he's a part werewolf - and is marrying a part Veela) Percy: left the family... not yet seen in a direct mortal danger. Twins: They do well in their business, but them, too, yet to be seen. For both Percy/Twins, Molly's prejudice on all three success has proven false. Harry: well, he's ALWAYS in mortal peril... important part of this was that Harry's *included* in the family, or as Molly put it - as good as a son. Finwitch From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 06:37:30 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: <1123869033.3649.97021.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050813063730.41945.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137489 Eggplant wrote: I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore reluctantly on Dumbledore's orders and at heart Snape is really a pussycat theory. I believe any one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea. 1) Snape already had Voldemort's trust, we are told in chapter 2 that he is the Dark Lord's closest adviser and he already knows of the Top Secret plan to kill Dumbledore, there was no need for the Order of the Phoenix to lose their most powerful wizard for Voldemort to trust him. 2) It doesn't matter if Snape knows of Voldemort's plans now because he can't tell anyone, nobody in the OotP would believe him, in fact they'd kill him on sight before he could even open his mouth. 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he murdered Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor. 4) I do not believe Dumbledore would ask anyone to become a murderer. 5) If Dumbledore did have some sort of wacky plan he would have to be brain dead dumb not to tell Harry about it; he must know that after Harry saw him be murdered by Snape he would never rest until Snape was dead, or Harry was. Lynda says: I am, firstly, not a traditional Snape lover. I think he is clearly portrayed as bitter, angry and unforgiving. I will point out, however, that there is one chapter left to go in the saga. Whether Snape will be redeemed by the end of the story is yet to be seen. As to your theories you've put some good thought into them, but if I may examine them... 1) Snape emphasizes this several times in chapter 2, himself, outlining some of the things he has been able to do through the years due to his position at Hogwarts and the trust Dumbledore has in him. Some might even say this is somewhat overemphasized in the chapter. 2) Snape cannot tell any of the members of the OotP LV's plans. Unless, of course, there was a third party in the OotP who was aware that Snape was acting as a double agent, and knew with certainty that Snape was truly working against Voldemort. That is pure speculation of course, and just a thought I'm still playing with but unbreakable vows have become important in the latter part of the series. 3) To answer this question, I will simply say, Snape himself says more than once in the course of the book something to the effect of "I played my part well. I am a good actor". Also, some would argue that the look of revulsion and hatred on Snape's face as he raised his wand to use the AK on Dumbledore, and that does not show enjoyment. The question is was the hatred on his face aimed at Dumbledore for years of pretending to be his loyal follower or because he was being asked to do one last act for Dumbledore as a part of a prearranged agreement 4) Is Dumbledore really asking Snape to murder him? Or begging for mercy? Or asking him to allow it to seem that a killing curse has been performed on him, thereby masking the fact that he was nearly dead already and distracting people from what was actually going on? If Dumbledore was already dying and could not be saved by any healer, then he did not ask Snape to kill him, or even hasten his death, only to distract those who were there from the circumstances of his death and possibly giving Snape a stronger footing among the DE's. 5) I think that Dumbledore sometimes expects Harry to react a bit differently than Harry sometimes does. I also think that if Snape is still working against LV rather than for him, that he may need to carry on by himself for awhile. Other than that, Dumbledore pointed out many times throughout the books that he was not infallible. He could have misjudged Snape all the while, and he could certainly have underestimated Harry's reaction. He could, as well, expect Harry to reflect on what he saw for awhile after his death and reach an different conclusion than the one he came to at the time of DD's death. Lynda DeColores --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From assortedantelopes at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 13 06:54:48 2005 From: assortedantelopes at yahoo.co.uk (assortedantelopes) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:54:48 -0000 Subject: Why Snape's worst memory? Culpable Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: > But, Lupin as far as we know isn't evil, but, isn't he culpable for > not stopping his friends from abusing another student at school be > him prefect or not? I mean, I know its said that well, Snape and > James hated each other, maybe they both has tag team hexing matches > down the corridors of Hogwarts, but, in that memory Snape wasn't > doing anything to them. So....If Snape is culpable for bad actions, > isn't Lupin culpable for his neglect of duties as a prefect? To me, > his actions make him just as much a party to what James and Sirius > were doing. I think in private Lupin did indeed stand up to his friends because Sirius says that Lupin made them feel ashamed of themselves sometimes. I don't believe it was fear of his friends' censure that made Lupin not intervene but rather that he may have seen it as disloyal to criticise them in front of a crowd of onlookers. In becoming Animagi, Lupin felt they had shown him a loyalty beyond his wildest dreams and he owed them. Even though I don't agree with his lack of action but he was afterall only fifteen. This scene made me even more sympathetic to Lupin, not less because it shows he isn't a saint. Thank Merlin! assorted antelopes From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 04:55:19 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 04:55:19 -0000 Subject: A Simple Snape Explanation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137491 J wrote: This also explains the look of revulsion and hatred, which wouldn't be > present if the specific killing of DD by SS had already been discussed - > SS is repulsed both with himself (for what he knows he must do) and > with DD (for his longstanding orders that have now left SS in this > position). I love this idea! I think that this would be very DD-ish. DD's a smart man, and if you've read some of the other posts, there is a lot of speculation that Madame Pince is Snape's mom...It's fun, read those...anyway, DD would already know that Snape would follow his orders to the bitter end, and of course Snape would hate himself for killing the man who saved his (and maybe his mom's) lives. Snape is also a guy who would want to tweak the rules to make the plan run better (as we've seen by his book edits) and DD would be more a guy to "stick to the plan." Anyway, good theory! Rachel From jwheeler at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 13 07:56:01 2005 From: jwheeler at sbcglobal.net (appellj) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:56:01 -0000 Subject: Harrys new Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137492 Allie wrote: > Ever since I read that quote, I have thought that Harry would end > up with Fawkes. I really like that Patronus idea. "And to his > shock, as his new silver Phoenix Patronus flew away, another Phoenix > just as beautiful flew toward him, this one (gold? red? what the > heck color was Fawkes again?) instead of silver." appellj: I'm wondering if it's significant that we don't actually *see* Fawkes at the end but just hear him? Or rather, we think it's him that we're hearing? What if the reason he didn't show up when DD was failing at the top of the tower, didn't come and swallow the alleged AK curse, didn't come immediately to mourn over DD's body the moment he "died", was because Fawkes wasn't actually there? What if DD sent him away in advance, and in fact DD transformed into a phoenix and was doing the singing to send a message to someone? It seems rather important to me that we don't know what happens to DD's body between the time Harry sees him at the bottom of the tower and the funeral, and in fact we don't even see his body then because it's wrapped up. So the big question I have now is whether it would even be possible that if he were able to transform into a phoenix at the moment of his death that he would take on the special magical properties of a phoenix and be reborn? Is there any evidence to support this possibility? Thanks for listening; sorry this is light on canon and heavy in speculation. appellj From jwheeler at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 13 08:12:58 2005 From: jwheeler at sbcglobal.net (appellj) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:12:58 -0000 Subject: Slug Club (was Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137493 Colebiancardi wrote: > Where is it that Snape & Lily were *comrades* of a sort? They were > in advanced potions - but who is to say their relationship wasn't > more of a Draco/Hermoine type? Potioncat: > Were Lily and Severus comrades? Perhaps no more than Hermione and > Cormac. appellj: JKR said that Snape had experienced love. What if he was in love with Lily? She was excellent at potions, so they'd share that in common. What if he was still in love with her and was bitter about her marrying James, so when he heard the prophecy, he told LV that it was Harry? We don't know exactly why LV chose Harry, so it seems feasible that it was because Snape told LV that Harry was the one (in the hopes that James and Harry would die and make Lily available) and asked that Lily be spared (remember that LV killed James without any discussion but told Lily to get out of the way instead of just killing her too--that struck me as odd). LV killed her anyway, and that's what caused Snape to hate LV and repent--he realized that LV does not actually reward anyone and was despondent over Lily's death. This would also explain why Snape hates Harry--he lived while Lily died--and why Snape is always criticizing James but is notably silent on the subject of Lily. And maybe one of the reasons LV was so hot to get his hand on the prophecy was because he wanted to verify that what Snape told him it said was actually true. It might also be why DD trusted Snape but never explained why--DD believes so strongly in the power of love and doesn't want to reveal Snape's secret. I did a search on the posts and didn't see anything on this, but I'm new to the group, so forgive me if this topic has already been picked over. appellj From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 09:06:34 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:06:34 -0000 Subject: DD is Dead/Snape In-Reply-To: <001001c59f37$c40421f0$5fdceddc@dee> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bunny" wrote: > I've just finished reading the book for the second time > and two things have convinced me that Dumbledore > is dead. The first is Fawkes' lament....there's no way they would > have fooled him, and the second is that JKR indicated that > she was a little sad over Sirius, but was extremely upset > at the end of this particular book. > Finwitch: Oh yes, Dumbledore IS dead, more so than Sirius IMO. For one thing, they had a funeral for Dumbledore, the death *was* done properly with the Killing Curse - and as you say, Fawkes is the greatest evidence. Where did Fawkes go, leaving everyone? To the realm of death forever? As for Snape, this... He kills Dumbledore, but - because of the Unbreakable Vow, he's *still* ambiguous, and we cannot be entirely certain of his loyalties. However, now he has *no* future except with Death Eaters or in hiding. I don't see ANYONE believing his remorse anymore... BUT: 1)Harry is right to blame Snape for Sirius' death - because trough out the 5th book, Snape had Wormtail as a servant! Honest, if only he had turned Wormtail in, Sirius would have been found innocent and been able to function... 2)Come to think of it, if Snape truly knew what Voldemort wanted Draco to do, he committing himself to murder Dumbledore as he gave the vow. If he didn't (lied all along) he was foolish to break the rule: Never give a promise unless you're certain what your promise entails. So, he's either loyal to Voldemort or a fool... (accepting to do something Voldemort ordered without knowing what it is unless Draco does it first???) All in all, I am convinced on Snape's loyalties being on Voldemort's side... and how Dumbledore came to trust him? Harry figured that out, even as he himself trusted the 'prince' despite of Hermione's objections - which turned out to be Snape! And, even told McGonagall why... Finwitch From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 09:12:44 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:12:44 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137495 appellj wrote: > > I'm wondering if it's significant that we don't actually *see* > Fawkes at the end but just hear him? Or rather, we think it's him > that we're hearing? What if the reason he didn't show up when DD was failing at the top of the tower, didn't come and swallow the alleged AK curse, didn't come immediately to mourn over DD's body the moment he "died", was because Fawkes wasn't actually there? **snippity snip-snip*** I believe you are asking the wrong question... You must ask yourslelf why Fawkes is not there... (apparently he's been absent for quite some times in light of DD's blackened hand...no healing tears...no fawkes swallowing said curse..) Why did not Harry nor DD summon fawkes to them??? Was Fawkes already protecting someone/something? If so, who? I absolutely do not buy "so Harry could see DD die"...that makes no sense... If dd froze/imobilized Harry..then he could have done so with Draco as well. No new patronus for Harry yet... dd (who thinks that if there is anyone who can do it....Harry will be able to change his patronus at will--fitting do you not think?) From ShylahM at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 09:18:50 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (Shylah) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:18:50 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Simple Snape Explanation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <403e946f050813021861566169@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137496 Snipped >redeyedwings wrote: > > If years ago, when Dumbledore realized both that Snape had gone back to > the side of Good and that LV was definitely NOT gone for good, he told > Snape that his mission, should LV return to full power, will be to > rejoin the Death Eaters and STAY WITH THEM, whatever the consequences > until the very last battle. > > That would explain the lack of specifics btwn SS and DD during the > forest conversation (SS is simply saying that DD takes too much for > granted, he's scared at what he may be forced to do with the DEs before > the final battle) and DD is simply reiterating that - no matter what > the cost - SS must be in position to betray LV when he is at his most > vulnerable (ie, when Harry and DD [and RAB?] have destroyed the > Horcruxes. > > This also explains the look of revulsion and hatred, which wouldn't be > present if the specific killing of DD by SS had already been discussed - > SS is repulsed both with himself (for what he knows he must do) and > with DD (for his longstanding orders that have now left SS in this > position). > > But nevertheless, being DD's man, he carries out his orders and rejoins > the DE (destroying any hope of good relations with any Order members) > and he now knows he'll be on their side until the end - a supremely > unappealing prospect as he knows that he'll be asked to kill again. > This would also explain why he's so angry at being called a coward - > he's arguably sacrificing more for the battle than either Harry (who > has already lost much, but hasn't chosen to give any of it up) and DD > (who gave his life, but did so with his good name and reputation as a > great good wizard intact). > > Snape is sacrificing everything, and he knows he will most likely die > in the process and be remembered as a traitor - I'd be damn upset if > someone called me a coward for doing that. Tanya now. I have snipped this as much as I can. But great post. Personally I have been thinking about this for a while. LV doesn't strike me that is the type that would be satisfied with only information for too long. It might help to set up things, but once that was done, things would likely change. While Snape might be able to hold the information (16 years of it) card at the beginning. It won't sustain him for long. It's my expectation that no Death Eater is permitted to be on the sidelines, desk job, so to speak. Neverless he is caught. No matter what anyone says he has witnesses to the AK, which carries a long sentence, regardless of motive. I do question the fully evil side of it though, motive wise. To me he didn't act like the other DE's. Here he is, given a gift that none of them would ever have imagined. Dumbledore in that state. Not only does he pause and stare, but he doesn't 'lord' over him, showing off, or rubbing Dumbledore's face in it for fooling him that many years. Now that would be something to brag about, and to his face. He had plenty of time, none of the Order fighting below had a chance of breaking through the barrier. Draco certainly had pleny to say about Snape 'fooling' Dumbledore. Still if he has just gone deep undercover and his choice was one of how many to save. Killing Dumbledore for that reason, then I hope that comes to light before he bites it. Back to talking about Dumbledore, I am sure that he knew that Snape would be required to go back to the old ways, killing and torture, as soon as he set foot within sight of LV at the end of book 4. Winning his 'trust' again would not include readiness to give information but nothing else. Tanya From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 09:29:03 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:29:03 -0000 Subject: Summer at the Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137497 Now for something completely trivial. Is anyone else waiting in eager anticipation for the first chapter of book 7. "We'll be there, Harry,' said Ron. "What?" "At your aunt and uncle's house," said Ron. 'And then we'll go with you wherever you're going." Oh the delights of possibilities with this one. Hermione grabbed crookshanks and pushed him out the door before dabbing ineffectually at Aunt Petunia's scratched and bleeding hands and face. "I'm really sorry Mrs Dursley, it's just he goes for people who aren't what they seem." (Woops, that'll bring the cannon hawks down on my head!) "Shall I help you with those sprouts, Mrs Dursley" said Ron, sending a sharpened knife flying accross the kitchen towards Petunia's head. "Like another toffee, Dudley?" Please feel free to use this as an opportunity to vindicate 17 long years of mistreatment.... Saraquel From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 13 09:47:30 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 05:47:30 -0400 Subject: Sleeping Portrait Message-ID: <006b01c59fec$05f5f2f0$76c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137498 Barb: >> That is, of course, Harry's interpretation of her motivation for making "an odd movement". I think it could be that she is signalling to DD to stay "slumbering". Might she be testing Harry's commitment to his promise not to reveal the Horcrux Quest to anyone but Hermione and Ron? CathyD now: Except for the interview JKR gave saying that Dumbledore's wisdom has isolated him, and that he has no equal, no partner, no confidante. She says that while McGonagall is a worthy second-in-command, she is not an equal to Dumbledore. IMO, Dumbledore has not given the Horcrux information to anyone other than Harry, and through him, to Ron and Hermione. Someone else may know or have guessed (R.A.B. did) but not from Dumbledore's telling. I personally think this is one of Dumbledore's biggest *emotional mistakes,* that while he trusts a lot of people - Snape, Minerva, Hagrid, etc. - he does not trust them with his things. Nobody else appears to know exactly *why* Dumbledore is so certain that Snape is on his side, that Snape is truly redeemed from his life as a DE. Just that Dumbledore *knew something we didn't* or had *an iron-clad reason for trusting Snape.* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 09:49:10 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:49:10 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After/Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137499 Finwitch: Something I consider interesting in both Time-Travel and Prophecy, is that they Turn the cause/consequence upsidedown in sorts... Because these are the rare cases where future dictates the past. It is only significant events - events even centaurs would consider significant - that have this ability. The Prophecy MUST be vague, because only that vagueness allows free choice to the ones who hear it. Both Dumbledore and Snape, upon hearing the prophecy, did make choices based on who they are. When Voldemort heard it from Snape, his choices (Dumbledore explained why he chose what he did) set the prophecy in motion... The events of the future are the REASON of a prophecy AND the content of it. The exact circumstance in which the prophecy comes out is the consequence (because only that way these people make these choices that the prophecy happens...) Guess that's why most people have problem with time TURNER and prophecy - because it turns over the ordinary timely order of cause and consequence... I know - it sounds crazy (which is why Trelawney appears so, despite of her predictions being fairly accurate. Just because none of those she predicted would DIE are not dead yet, doesn't mean they won't. Like Harry: I highly doubt that Harry would choose to watch his friends die, himself being immortal... and that is what Trelawney sees. Because unless you take great sacrifices by tainting your soul, you WILL die, simply because it's the nature of mortal humans... - or manage to make Philosopher's stone and keep drinking Elixir of Life all eternity... but even Nicolas didn't live for all eternity). It's Harry's determination and purity which causes Trelawney to predict his death - so in a way, as tragic as Trelawney thinks it - it's a GOOD prediction. Finwitch From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 09:56:23 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:56:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco and the imperius References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137500 I rather figured that it was an adult DE who'd cast that spell. Only Harry (we think) has used an unforgivable and not very well. Would LV trust Malfloy to cast one that could be broken? It might have been snape, at DDs orders. Chris Alternate History: http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jo Marelvy Samudio To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:11 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco and the imperius In the tower scene before the DE's arrive, DD asks Draco "...Rosmerta. How long has she been under the Imperius Curse?" Malfoy did imperiused Madam Rosmerta, right? At least since Katie was given the necklace, so how come there were no owls with warning about underage use of magic? Does this mean that Malfoy had already turned 17 by the time he performed the Imperius on Rosmerta? We do know that he is taking the apparition course, so he must be turning 17 by the end of August. If he had not yet turned 17, and an owl with the undarage use of magic warning was to be sent, where would it arrive? Hogsmade? Hogwarts? We now know that although the MM cannot possibly know who in fact performed the underage magic, they anyway know that some was performed and DO send an owl. Any ideas? Does anyone happen to know when Draco's birthday is? Jomarelvy Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 13 12:07:57 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:07:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney's part in HBP: Planting info on the Tarot D... Message-ID: <45.2e2554f9.302f3c9d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137501 In a message dated 8/12/2005 8:43:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mhbobbin at yahoo.com writes: As for the card "lightning-stuck tower"--she senses that there's going to be something bad happening on a tower---and that's a pretty good prediction as it turns out... I assume this is a real card in the tarot deck---is there deeper meaning with that card? ------------------------ Sherrie here: Interpretations vary depending on the author - but nearly all of them include the idea of the old being swept away suddenly to allow room for the new to come in. The only book I have to hand without getting up is the one accompanying the Tarot of the Old Path (one of my favorite decks), which states for this card: "DIVINATORY MEANING: A traumatic change that will lead to new awareness. The collapse of old beliefs. A change of opinion. Outgrowing the present environment. Ending a relationship. Adversity. Catastrophe. Unhappiness. Chaos. Deception. Downfall. Loss of security. Financial loss. Ruin. Destruction. Transition. Favourable new opportunities. Freedom/liberation only gained at some cost." (Card designed, in this deck, by Janet and Stewart Farrar.) A great deal of the interpretation rests also on the identification of the subject of the reading - who exactly was the Querent for whom Sybil was casting here? Sherrie Tarot reader since 1970 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 12:54:16 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:54:16 -0000 Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux - Lily, DD, Harry's eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137502 The creation of a Horcrux. When a wizard murders someone, his soul is ripped apart. He can then take advantage of this ripping to create a Horcrux, the wickedest of all magical inventions, an artifact in which he stores the ripped part of his soul in order to grant himself a degenerate form of immortality. This is Dark Magic at its highest, since it involves at least 2 absolute evils: the murdering of another human being, and the cutting apart of one's soul. I've been wondering if there exists an opposite action: the creation of the Opposite of a Horcrux. Let's review what this would include. 1. Creating a Horcrux necessitates a murder, the deliberate and unjustified taking of someone else's life. One opposite of this could be the protection of someone else's life at the expense of one's own life. In other words: self-sacrifice to save another life. 2. Creating a Horcrux necessitates to cut one's soul in two parts. This is evil, as DD told us, because a soul is supposed to remain whole, so it can't be part of the creation of the Opposite of a Horcrux. One opposite of cutting something in half, though, is adding something. Murder rips a soul apart. Maybe sacrificing oneself to save someone else adds something to someone's soul, maybe it enlarges someone's soul? And maybe this additional part could then be freely transplanted into something else, since it isn't an original part of the soul. Or maybe it is a copy, or an imprint, of the soul, that is created, and that is then available for use for good purposes through Love Magic. Something like a faint ghost, but borne out of sacrifice instead of fear. 3. Creating a Horcrux is the epitome of Dark Magic. According to DD again, the opposite of Dark Magic is Love. So the creation of the Opposite of a Horcrux would be made possible by the use of Love Magic. This is apparently a little-explored area of magic. But we know that there is a room in the DoM where they study Love. Maybe they discovered how to create the Opposite of a Horcrux there? 4. The goal of the creation of a Horcrux is to gain some twisted version of immortality for oneself. The goal of the creation of the Opposite of a Horcrux would be to protect someone else, to do good to someone else. I don't think that the person who is saved by the self-sacrifice and the person who gets the protection of the Opposite of a Horcrux have to be the same. Just like the murder doesn't need to be related to the Horcrux, I don't think the self-sacrifice and the Opposite of a Horcrux have to be related. One can kill a perfect stranger and create a Horcrux. Similarly, one could save a perfect stranger at the price of one's own life, and be able to create an Opposite of a Horcrux for someone else. So maybe there exists a magical process that is the opposite of the creation of a Horcrux. It is based on someone sacrificing themselves, their own life, to protect another life. This sacrifice adds something positive to the soul of the person who sacrifices themselves. This additional part can then be transferred, with the use of Love Magic, into something or someone, as a protection??. A Horcrux is eminently selfish: killing someone else to ensure one's immortality. The Opposite of a Horcrux would be eminently selfless: sacrificing one's life to ensure someone else's survival, to protect someone else. A Horcrux is the wickedest of all Dark Magic artifacts. The Opposite of a Horcrux would be the most beautiful of all Love Magic artifacts. Side note: the Opposite of a Horcrux is at the basis of Christianity: Jesus gave his life so we could live. Of course, the Opposite of a Horcrux and the Atonement are not on the same level at all, because Christ gave his perfect, divine life, to grant us all eternal life, while the Opposite of a Horcrux requires "only" an imperfect life and grants only a little more physical survival or protection, not eternal life. But the *principle* is the same: someone sacrificing themselves so someone else can live and/or be blessed. --- Those points make it highly possible that Lily Potter did indeed create the Opposite of a Horcrux, and stored this highly Good Magical artifact into Harry himself, as a protection against immediate mortal dangers. Knowing Lily, it is very possible that she explored Love Magic. We know that Lily is supposed to have had a great heart, to have been good at Potions, to have had a wand that was good for Charm work, and that she was Head Girl, which implies that she must have been a good student overall. So it is possible that in her short career Lily discovered much about Love Magic and that she decided to use it to advance the cause she was fighting for. The protection she gave Harry has come into effect several times already. * Its main purpose was to protect Baby!Harry from LV, of course. It made the AK rebound. * Quirrell, who hosted LV, was unable to hold Harry. A direct consequence of Lily's protection, according to DD. * I think Harry being able to resist the Imperius Curse so easily is also a result of this protection. The voice that tells him to resist it could be his mother's. The Imperius Curse is very Dark Magic, it is very dangerous, it would make sense that Lily's Opposite of a Horcrux would kick in when Harry would be subjected to such a potentially life-threatening Curse. * Harry's Patronus was Prongs even before Harry knew about Prongs being his father. It is very possible that Lily's Patronus was her husband's Animagus form (just like Tonks's new Patronus is Lupin's werewolf form), and that her Patronus was initially transferred to Harry. I will be very interested to see if Harry develops a new Patronus in Book 7 - his *own* Patronus this time. * There is the little episode about Uncle Vernon strangling Harry to the point of suffocation, and an unknown force making him drop Harry. This could be accidental magic, like all those incidents that happened in Harry's childhood, but the way it is described makes me wonder if it wasn't something else. * There's also the possession episode in the MoM. It is supposed to be love for Sirius which prevented LV from possessing Harry, but I don't see how that love *in itself* could have this much power. Harry can't be the first person who loved someone else that much and who thought of them when feeling like about to die, so if loving someone was enough to resist possession by LV, I think LV would have been expelled from most bodies he ever tried to possess and he would know about this phenomenon by now. What I think might have happened is that Harry feeling love for his godfather resonated with the Opposite of a Horcrux in him. Harry's love was somehow multiplied by the piece of Love Magic in him, and that's what overwhelmed LV. * I wonder if the Gleam in DD's eyes in GoF isn't due to the fact that LV transferred a bit of Lily's soul into himself, he acquired a piece of Love Magic for himself. This could seriously mess him up and interfere with his abilities at some crucial moment, and could justify DD thinking of it as a victory, even though it deprived Harry of his special protection. There's also the little thing about Harry vaguely remembering about Tom Riddle. It doesn't have anything to do with any kind of protection, but it could be a side effect of Lily transferring a bit of herself in Harry. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if DD had told Lily about Voldemort's true identity and his past - or if Lily had discovered this on her own, smart girl that she was. Lily is supposed to have had a big compassionate heart, so she might have felt pity and compassion for Baby Tom, for what was done to him, especially once she herself became a mother. This could explain why Harry had an instinctive positive reaction to the name Tom Riddle (he felt as though Tom was an old friend). In short, I wonder if all those people who have argued for eons that Lily somehow transferred a bit of herself into Harry when she sacrificed herself to save him weren't right on target, and if the discovery of Horcruxes wasn't the last piece of info we needed to put everything together as to what she did and how. --- Another person I suspect might have created an Opposite of a Horcrux is DD. 1. His death protected two people: Draco, and Snape. DD might have been able to save himself, but at least one of the other two would have died. So by sacrificing himself, DD saved at least one other life. 2. I believe DD did this out of love. DD loved Harry, he loved him so much that he jeopardized his great plan to spare the boy some suffering. So I cannot imagine that he would abandon Harry before having finished to train him properly, before having told him about the other Horcruxes, about how to destroy a Horcrux, and so on, not without a *very good* reason. The ONLY good enough reason I can come up with is Love: Love for someone else. Harry isn't the only person DD loved, far from it. I'm pretty sure DD loved Draco too. And if it came to Harry's training vs Draco's life, I can imagine that DD would choose Draco's life. 3. The question of course then becomes: what did DD choose as his Opposite of a Horcrux? Harry? Draco? Fawkes? Something else? Personally, I would go for Harry, because Harry *needs* it more than anyone else. A case could be made for Draco needing it badly too, but considering how little of an influence Lily's soul *seems* to have on Harry, I'd say that DD wouldn't want to risk wasting his piece of soul on someone who wouldn't be willing to use it. And if Draco doesn't want to use it, then he doesn't deserve the protection that maybe goes with it either. Moreover, I can see pieces of canon that would seem to confirm that Harry was indeed chosen. During DD's funeral, Harry once or twice has very funny flashes about how DD would react to what is going on, and he wonders what's "wrong" with him. Maybe what's wrong with him is in fact very right: maybe he's got a piece of DD's enlarged soul in him? Or an imprint of DD's soul, or something like that. I wonder how this could play out. First of all, did DD create this Opposite of a Horcrux to protect Harry, like Lily did, or did he do it with another goal in mind? Did he do it as a way to keep teaching Harry maybe? Or as a way to transfer some of his powers to Harry? Or simply as a way to make Harry even more magically powerful than he already was on his own? --- Something that might be related to this Opposite of a Horcrux business is Harry's eyes. Everyone in the books keeps going on about how Harry has got his mother's eyes. This in itself is not surprising at all, it's genetics. So there must be another reason people insist so much on it. One possibility, as many have suggested before, is that Lily's eyes were special, and that by inheriting them Harry also inherited their capacity. If that's the case, I just wish people *told* Harry what was so special about his mother's eyes, instead of hoping he'll find out on his own. Another possibility is that Harry did not *always* have his mother's eyes. Maybe Harry was born with his father's eyes, or other eyes altogether, and then suddenly acquired his mother's eyes. When she died maybe? People who would have known Harry as a baby would undoubtedly be shocked to see him sporting Lily's eyes now. As for why Lily's eyes would have been transplanted unto her son, this could be a side effect of the creation of the Opposite of a Horcrux. We know that losing parts of his soul modified LV's appearance, as though by losing parts of his soul he also lost part of his physical substance. Could the opposite be true also? By transferring a part of her soul into Harry, or an imprint of it, did Lily also transfer a part of her physical substance into him - her eyes? And if so, what did DD transfer into Harry? It can't be anything obvious, because nobody, not even Harry himself, noticed anything different about his body, his substance. So what could it be? Maybe it is a special power that Harry will discover when he needs it? Maybe Legilimency and/or Occlumency? Or something else entirely? Or will Harry someday notice how strangely shaped his new scar on his knee is :-) ? I'd love any input on those ideas. Criticisms are more than welcome, and canon backups (if there are any other than those I mentioned) too. Thanks in advance. Del From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Sat Aug 13 13:22:20 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:22:20 -0000 Subject: My last theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137503 After my first read of HBP and joining this group, I was prepared to concede that Snape might be good and that Dumbledore's death may have been a part of some cunning plan. This has gnawed away at me for weeks though, particularly as I read the book for a third time. We're talking about Snape here. Snape who has been absolutely awful to the likes of Ron, Harry and Neville throughout the books and who we assume has been the same with countless other young kids in Potions and laterly DADA lessons throughout that time. The scene in "Snape Victorious" where Snape comes to the gate sums up Snape really well, does he show any concern or sympathy for what might have happened to Harry (face covered in blood)? Course not, he's Snape. But we expect that with Harry, but the way he treated Tonks was outrageous. I've seen some theories that were based on a dying Dumbledore having his wishes carried out by a loyal Snape. Dumbledore himself indicates that while the destruction of the Ring Horcrux seriously injured his arm, that was all it did, at the same time saying that he wouldn't sacrifice the other one for another Horcrux, perhaps a few fingers. Does this sound like someone ready to die for the cause? The potion could be killing him, but there's no way that Snape or Dumbledore could have been certain of that even if they were able to have a fleeting discussion via Legilimency on top of the Astronomy tower. Dumbledore showed that he was not exempt from making mistakes, by choosing to ignore Harry's warnings he put everyone in the school in danger, and what for? to 'save' Draco? To find a way out of a stupid mistake made by his DADA teacher in making the unbreakable vow? After the cursed necklace and poisoned Mead, Dumbledore had realised that Draco was out to kill him, with it being only him in any danger he could chose to ignore it and let it play out. But Draco ultimately found a way to get Death Eaters into Hogwarts, putting all of the order members and the Students at risk. My theory about Snape is this, he made the unbreakable vow for one or all of several reasons, 1) Narcissa's manipulation was well done and probably even more effective if Snape felt an attraction to her 2) Wanting to look important in front of Narcissa and Bellatrix and 3) Being curious about the plan and having lied about being in on it. Oh yes, I feel convinced that Snape knew nothing of the plan before it was mentioned and while he may have tried legilimency he would probably not have had much success with 2 witches that were so entrenched in the organisation of Voldermort. When he made the vow, he was content with the first two parts, but got nervous when Narcissa said the third but by that time there really was no going back. Throughout the year, Snape tried everything he could to find out what the plan was with no success, after all his life depended on it. He may have reached the same conclusion as Dumbledore - that Malfoy was going to try to kill our bespectacled headmaster - but we can't be sure. On the fateful day, when Flitwick ran into Snape's office - presumably proclaiming the presence of the dark Mark above the Astronomy Tower or else why would Snape head straight there? - Snape stunned Flitwick to prevent him from getting in the way and went straight to where the action was, where he fully expected Malfoy to be and there he finds Malfoy pointing his wand at a disarmed and unhealthy looking Dumbledore. It takes seconds for the full understanding of what he'd got himself into to sink in and for him to realise that there was really only one thing he could do to save himself and save Draco. Well you know the rest. I guess this is just another version of the Snape being Snape theories. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 13:25:38 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:25:38 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP: Planting info on the Tarot D... In-Reply-To: <45.2e2554f9.302f3c9d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137504 > Sherrie here: > > Interpretations vary depending on the author - but nearly all of > them include the idea of the old being swept away suddenly to allow > room for the new to come in. > > > A great deal of the interpretation rests also on the identification > of the subject of the reading - who exactly was the Querent for whom > Sybil was casting here? > > Sherrie > Tarot reader since 1970 > Valky: Hehe. As a fellow veteran of the cards Sherrie I commend you on that excellent point, and I'm giggling as I think of my answer. In my experience there is one certain answer to this question: someone so obssessively consulting the Tarot, as Trelawney is in HBP, is looking for *her* answer. She is the Querent, and she *wants* something, and the Tarot isn't telling her what she wants to hear. My best guess, presuming that JKR is somewhat familiar with the human tendency to try and force the signs appear, is that Trelawney wants the cards to tell her Hogwarts will go back to the way it was. When she was happy in her Tower with her cosy little job all to herself. Her subject is Hogwarts, and in particular, her job I think. What probably concerns her most about the Tower is not that it portends imminent disaster and catastrophic changes in Hogwarts, as far as she's concerned that already happened last year (well to *her* anyway and thats what matters isn't it.. as Firenze implies, preoccupied with the trivial small concerns of herself in her fortune reading). You see Trelawney thinks, I believe, and possibly (though not completely) accurately, that these changes she forsees in the Tower, this separation and relinquishing of ties, are *her* ties to *her* job and *her* home, Hogwarts. Quite distraught she runs to Dumbledore, who has repeatedly assured her that Firenze is no threat to her continued position at Hogwarts, to challenge him, and defy him to again denounce what the fortunes hold. The cards say she isn't staying at Hogwarts, they say she's about to lose everything, "Oh say it isn't so Dear Dumbledore, throw out the mule please, it is the only way to avert this terrible fortune." And Dumbledore again says to her, "Dear Sybill I assure you, *Firenze* is not a threat to *anybody* in Hogwarts. Perhaps you should go and introduce yourself to him, I am sure that you two could have an *enlightening* conversation about those cards of yours." Peering over his glasses at the handful of disastrous portends causing Trelawney so much grief. I am supposing that, had Sybill got to know her fellow teacher, instead of pinning the blame for her worst fears coming true on his dear furry behind, he could perhaps have told her that those cards quite possibly speak to her of much greater things than herself and their shared job. But she wasn't about to do that was she.. Thanks for bringing that up Sherrie, I've enjoyed the change of pace from the other threads I've been contributing to. Valky From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 13:25:16 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:25:16 -0000 Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux - Lily, DD, Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > A Horcrux is eminently selfish: killing someone else to ensure one's > immortality. The Opposite of a Horcrux would be eminently selfless: > sacrificing one's life to ensure someone else's survival, to protect > someone else. > > > Another person I suspect might have created an Opposite of a Horcrux > is DD. . > > Del Now Cindy: An absolutely beautiful post, Del. I love it! This Opposite of Horcrux love magic could be the reason for Snape's expression full of hatred and anger DD that enabled him to perform the killing curse towards DD...he knew what DD was going to do with his death and it infuriated him it was to give Harry a piece of his expanded soul! Oh so satisfying and I will certainly be scouring the canon for more evidence! Excellent! Cindy From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 13:30:48 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:30:48 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > It is clear from OOTP that Harry is a poor occlumens and Voldemort > could raid Harry's thoughts when he wanted to. Therefore it is > imperative that Harry does not know of Snape's mission to ensure that > Voldemort does not get wind of it!! Then why does Dumbledore tell Harry other information that Voldemort really needs not to get wind of, like the quest for the Horcruxes? DD specifically tells Harry *not* to tell anyone other than Ron and Hermione, meaning that Harry leaves someone as important as McG out of the loop; Ron and Hermione also get the ending text of the Prophecy shared with them, which is presumably also rather important and still desirable. This is all restricted and important information that Dumbledore entrusts Harry with. Therefore, it is still possible but a weaker argument that Dumbledore did not entrust Harry with the information about Snape out of deep concern for secrecy. Thematically, there's a better reason why Dumbledore would not have done it; it was something personal between Snape and himself, and DD is not the type to share other's secrets. Probably a profound emotional oversight, given how deeply those secrets affect a number of other people. -Nora, from a literary perspective, tends to agree with Lupinlore that Harry needs to be alone or with Ron and Hermione, not continually helped out by Super Spy Snape From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Aug 13 13:46:54 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:46:54 -0000 Subject: Draco and the imperius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137507 "Jo Marelvy Samudio" wrote: > In the tower scene before the DE's arrive, DD asks > Draco "...Rosmerta. How long has she been under the Imperius Curse?" > > Malfoy did imperiused Madam Rosmerta, right? At least since Katie was > given the necklace, so how come there were no owls with warning about > underage use of magic? Does this mean that Malfoy had already turned > 17 by the time he performed the Imperius on Rosmerta? Potionat: Draco turns 17 on June 5 of his 6th year. When does the Tower Scene happen anyway? But the Underage rule seems to apply away from Hogwarts, but Hogsmeade during the school year appears OK. However, to be honest, I'm not sure if I really know that or if I've just assumed that. What seems more interesting to me is that Draco has done very well. I think he's he bit brighter than some of us have given him credit for. If he perfomed the Imperius, he's a way into Dark Arts, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else performed that spell. He did manage to work out the vanishing cabinets, repair one and set up the DE visit to Hogwarts, all while avoiding Snape. This isn't praise, exactly. It's just surprise. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Aug 13 13:52:24 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:52:24 -0000 Subject: DD is Dead/Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137508 > Finwitch: > > 1)Harry is right to blame Snape for Sirius' death - because trough > out the 5th book, Snape had Wormtail as a servant! Honest, if only he > had turned Wormtail in, Sirius would have been found innocent and > been able to function... Potioncat: I missed that tidbit. Wormtail worked for Snape during OoP? Can you give me the canon? From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 13 14:02:04 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:02:04 -0000 Subject: Draco and the imperius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potionat: > Draco turns 17 on June 5 of his 6th year. When does the Tower Scene > happen anyway? Geoff: We are told that: '..Ron's tolerance was not to be tested much as they moved into June, for Harry and Ginny's time together was becoming increasingly restricted. Ginny's O.W.L.s were approaching and she was therefore forced to revise for hours into the night." (HBP "The Seer Overheard" p.501 UK edition) This, of course, is before the cave incident and the fight on the Tower. Does this help? From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 13 14:10:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:10:13 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137510 Nora: > Then why does Dumbledore tell Harry other information that Voldemort really needs not to get wind of, like the quest for the Horcruxes? DD specifically tells Harry *not* to tell anyone other than Ron and Hermione, meaning that Harry leaves someone as important as McG out of the loop; Ron and Hermione also get the ending text of the Prophecy shared with them, which is presumably also rather important and still desirable. This is all restricted and important information that Dumbledore entrusts Harry with. Pippin: Dumbledore confides the rest of the prophecy to Harry only when it becomes disastrously clear that the consequences of Voldemort learning it will be less than the consequences of leaving Harry in ignorance. I believe the same is true of the horcruxes. Dumbledore has suspected since he heard about the Diary that this was the method Voldemort used to survive, but he tells Harry of his quest only after he has found that destroying the ring nearly killed him. Harry was able to destroy the diary horcrux *without any harm to himself.* Harry was also able to sense that there was something unusual about the Diary, and he knew, without any thought or preparation, how to destroy it. If Dumbledore suspects that Harry has a unique ability to recognize and destroy horcruxes, he is obviously the best person to undertake the quest, and it has to be given to him. The horcruxes must be found and destroyed as quickly as possible, or many many innocent lives will be lost. Voldemort will doubtless find out what he is doing, if he doesn't know already. But Harry's obvious unsuitability for the task will be his protection. So DD gives Harry the quest, but *doesn't* tell him that he is uniquely suited for it. OTOH, since he is apparently unsuitable, it is better that more conventionally-minded wizards like McGonagall, don't know what Harry is trying to do, because they wouldn't step out of the way and let him do it. A teenaged Hogwarts dropout, on a quest to destroy four of the most powerful and cunningly hidden magical objects that ever existed? Right, maybe you'd like to buy some shares in the Bifrost Bridge. Dumbledore does share Neville's secret with Harry, so I think he would have trusted him with Snape's. But it would be too great a threat to Snape if he did so. I believe he was holding back on how his arm was injured, and his own life saved, for the same reason. I think he wanted to let Harry see for himself that if Snape had wanted Dumbledore dead, all he would have had to do was let the horcrux curse kill him, but DD was hoping to get as many horcruxes out of the way first as he could. Why shouldn't Rowling pull another deus ex machina? PS/SS, Dumbledore. CoS has *two*, FF!Anglia and Fawkes. PoA, TT!Harry. GoF, TeamDumbledore. OOP, Team Dumbledore *Again*. HBP, Buckbeak. And Snape (but he saves Draco.) She *likes* 'em. Pippin From muellem at bc.edu Sat Aug 13 14:29:53 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:29:53 -0000 Subject: Slug Club (was Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "appellj" wrote: > Colebiancardi wrote: > > > Where is it that Snape & Lily were *comrades* of a sort? They were > > in advanced potions - but who is to say their relationship wasn't > > more of a Draco/Hermoine type? > > > Potioncat: > > > Were Lily and Severus comrades? Perhaps no more than Hermione and > > Cormac. > > > appellj: > > JKR said that Snape had experienced love. What if he was in love > with Lily? no. What JKR stated was that Snape had been loved, not that Snape ever loved anyone. Big difference. Someone loved Snape at one time in his life - I think it was his mother, and most definetly not Lily. Please remember in OotP, Lily tells James that he(James) is as bad as him(Snape). She didn't think highly of either boy at the time. As I like to say(over & over again it seems), James cleaned up his act for Lily and then they both fell in love - Snape never did change his wicked ways, as he became a DE. The quotes from JKR(from mugglenet) MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. Okay, one more each! from another interview: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. colebiancardi (who thinks that there is a very good reason that Snape could never love anyone and that will be revealed in book 7) From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 15:23:33 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:23:33 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Why shouldn't Rowling pull another deus ex machina? > PS/SS, Dumbledore. CoS has *two*, FF!Anglia and Fawkes. PoA, > TT!Harry. GoF, TeamDumbledore. OOP, Team Dumbledore > *Again*. HBP, Buckbeak. And Snape (but he saves Draco.) Because we're getting to The End. The End of Everything. I assume that Rowling is serious in her literary intentions to ratchet up the tension by having Harry (mostly) go it alone. Harry has been helped immensely throughout the books with luck and coincidence and his abilities to call down amazing assistance. Isn't it about time for Harry to suck it up and get down with his own skills and unique abilities (Chosen One, right?) and do things on his merits? He has the support of his friends which should be essential, but too much support weakens the tension and the drama, as it were. Although Rowling likes her devices, it's not a foregone conclusion that she will keep using them. They seem to decrease in effectiveness, as well. -Nora wants to see Harry succeed or fail for maximum heroic effect From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sat Aug 13 15:30:23 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:30:23 -0000 Subject: DE Spy in Hogwarts: Bloody Baron (new theory) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137513 What do we know about the Bloody Baron? He was "... groaning and clanking up on the Astronomy Tower, it's a favourite pastime ..." where the Death Mark was positioned. He saw DD arriving, and may have kept a check on DD's movements. ok, so that is very circumstancial ... but what do we know about him? - Slytherin house ghost So he is familiar with almost every DE. - He is called a Baron (a royal term) when there are no Princes in WW. This suggests he pre-dated modern WW political structure. - Feared and avoided by other Hogwarts ghosts. So he enjoys as much secrecy and privacy as he wants - He is Bloody. Binns (COS ch9) said, "... it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." when talking about the founding of Hogwarts and the story behind Salazar's Chamber itself. Being bloody, the Baron may have been one of the victoms from around that time. And favouring Slytherin house, it would not surprise me if he was a relative of Slytherin himself ! Missing information about him:- We see Sir Nichollas talking to his house students, but haven't heard dialogues between the Baron and Draco (which were not done if front of Harry anyway) Is the Baron a Parselmouth? ?????????? Moaning Myrtle is the only ghost that has taken an active role in the developement of storylines so far. Nearly Headless Nick has talked a lot but said nothing of grand importance. If any ghost takes a major role in books 7, I'd keep an eye out for the Bloody Baron -aussie- From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 15:48:19 2005 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:48:19 -0000 Subject: Summer at the Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137514 > Now for something completely trivial. Is anyone else waiting in eager > anticipation for the first chapter of book 7. > > "We'll be there, Harry,' said Ron. > "What?" > "At your aunt and uncle's house," said Ron. 'And then we'll go with > you wherever you're going." > > Oh the delights of possibilities with this one. > Considering the fact that Harry will be able to do magic outside of school by his birthday (tee hee!), I also can't wait to see what the Dursley's will have to endure. I'm sure Harry's investment into Fred & George's shop will come in handy & with Ron & Hermione showing up (Hermione will just 'appear'), this may be harry's best birthday ever From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sat Aug 13 15:51:45 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:51:45 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff and DE question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137515 The Death Eaters are a group supporting an English Dark Wizard. So what is a Bulgarian doing in the Death Eaters? If he was the headmaster of an ancient wizarding school, reknown for it's Dark Arts, then I immagine he is MUCH older than Snape and maybe older than Riddle too. So does anyone know when he joined LV? Was it overseas? If he was in Drumstrang when he met LV, could a Horcrux be hiding there? -aussie- From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Sat Aug 13 15:59:08 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:59:08 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137516 pippin wrote: > > Why shouldn't Rowling pull another deus ex machina? nora wrote: > Because we're getting to The End. The End of Everything.... Isn't it about time for Harry to suck it up and get down with his own skills and unique abilities (Chosen One, right?) and do things on his merits? He has the support of his friends which should be essential, but too much support weakens the tension and the drama, as it were. dan: This is why the scene on the tower is immensely important not to dance around, touch here and there, and not grab two fisted and tackle. There are things that need to be explained in any theory about what happened where those theories differ from what Harry experienced of the event. What the book says is that Albus was pleading, that Severus was filled with hatre and was revolted when he performed the AK. Secrecy indeed. Every book contains a possession, or a substitution, or secret form revealed. Is it Snape on the tower in this one? There is another revelation in HBP, though. The character, the person, of Tom Riddle, and hence the vital importance of character. Character is not static in Rowling - people are moving or changing this way or that all the time. One of the drawbacks of super duper secret saviour Snape is that it seems to require an inordinate constancy, a kind of static core to the person Snape, an unchanging character after the renunciation of DE days. These theories must also address the fact that this was the first time we have seen Snape in his role as DE in front of non-DE people (Albus and hidden Harry). What does it mean in terms of the story Rowling is telling to have this moment occur where it does? Also, we have not seen Snape with Tom. That moment is definitely going to be a highlight of book seven. Nora's argument, and I agree with this, seems to be that the sides are set up, the pieces are in motion - things are moving that cannot be undone. If there is a tricksy moment coming, it will in some way partake of everything that has come before - but not just as some plot device. It will partake of the numinous authorial as well, the point Rowling takes for granted, the fatedness of those who act in heart, as Harry does. These Gryffindors, have provided the only sense of the real, the only sense of authenticity, as it were, in the entire series. The internal compass of the books cannot be lightly cast aside for this or that plot-based whimsy. Though there are obviously many possible ways to satisfyingly conclude the series, part of the task for those who are begging a different reading of what happened on the tower than what Harry saw, is to point out how this immensely generous and self-sacrificing Snape, say, is part of a satisfying conclusion. This vision of Snape seems to me to be a reflection of the practise of keeping oneself removed, of quiet forebearance, but with the bonus of being allowed, even encouraged, to be a nasty bitch thrown for fun. Like an unreformed Aunt Betsy Trotwood! Before this discussion, though, the question of what needs to be answered, not just plotwise, but in accordance with the stated intentions of the author and the hit-over-the-head thematic importance of acting on a sense of justice, a desire for truth, and love in the books must be set clearly before those taking sides on the debate. Is it worth it to attmept this? Or should I just go into lurk for a couple years, satisfying myself that once the plot irritants are more or less cleared up, the themes of the writing can safely be addressed? dan From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 16:05:07 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:05:07 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137517 "Matt" wrote: > Trust is a commodity, not an on-off > state. Voldemort may have some > trust in Snape, but he must also have > doubts about him and his > possible loyalty to Dumbledore Murdering Dumbledore, the good guys greatest weapon next to Harry seems like an excessive price to pay to increasing Voldemort's already considerable trust in Snape by a few percent. In fact, after killing the greatest wizard in the world Voldemort might keep a very close watch on Snape; when one of Stalin's generals had achieved a great victory or became very popular with the troops was the time he was most in dander of being purged, Stalin didn't want the competition. > Even if Snape had Voldemort's trust > before the confrontation on the > tower, that trust was 100% at risk > once Snape walked up those stairs > and took in the scene.If Snape had > obstructed Voldemort's plan to kill > Dumbledore, rather than aiding it, > he'd have raised a huge new > question about his loyalty. Not so, Snape could have killed all the Death Eaters and then told Voldemort that Dumbledore had done it. It would make a plausible story, Draco really didn't confide all the details to Snape so he could claim to be on the other side of the castle at the time. > You also assume that the Order's > current lack of trust in Snape > cannot be remedied. That is correct, no conservable turn of events could make me forgive Snape and a doubt Harry or any member of the Order would feel very different. > Snape has already shown he is > pretty good at restoring others' > trust in him. Yes, but not this time, nobody is that good. > He managed to simultaneously get > the two most powerful wizards of > his time (and apparently two of > the most accomplished Legilimenses > ever) to believe diametrically > opposite stories concerning > his loyalty That is true so logically we can conclude he must have been lying to one of them for many years and gotten away with it, but if he's good enough to fool one he's good enough to fool the other too and that's exactly what I think he's doing. I don't believe Snape would be content being anybody's right hand man, he wants to be number one and his actions over the last 16 years are perfectly consistent with that. > Suppose the request Dumbledore > made was simply "if it comes > down to killing me or breaking > your vow (and dying yourself), > I insist that you kill me." What do you mean "if it comes down to that"? Once Snape made that Unbreakable Vow it HAD to come down to that. And Dumbledore couldn't have ordered him to make it because until 10 minutes before even Snape didn't know anybody would ask him to make such a vow. He made it to get Bellatrix off his back at no cost because he was only vowing to do what he would have done anyway. > He [Harry] does not say he > won't rest until Snape is dead. Does Harry really need to spell that out? If Harry kills Voldemort and Snape still lives do you really imagine he will forget about Snape and just play Quidditch and eat ice cream in Hogsmead? I don't think so. > He says he won't rest until > *Voldemort* is dead, and if > Snape gets in his way, so > much the worse for Snape. And Harry says he now hates Snape just as much as he hates Voldemort, if Snape is really a good guy in disguise then Dumbledore's mysterious plan was a disastrous flop guaranteed to lead to tragedy because one of them is going to kill the other, it's only a matter of time. > Maybe Harry has been further > poisoned against Snape One of the great understatements of all time. Eggplant From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 16:06:02 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:06:02 -0000 Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux - Lily, DD, Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137518 Great post, Del, way to go! Of course I'd like to put my two knuts in It is not "an Opposite to a Horcrux" that caused Voldemort's strong "allergic reaction" to Harry, I think. It was Harry's "humanness" as oppose to Voldemort's "monstrousness". In defying Death and "spurning fate" Voldemort deliberately denied his own humanity, maimed and mutilated his soul, and all for the purpose of becoming "much more than a man" as he himself put it in GoF (quoting Lady Macbeth almost verbatim). But as we've been told by Macbeth "who dares more [than all that may become a man] is nothing". And indeed the upshot of his unprecedented daring is that he ceased to be a human being altogether and became a monster. Whereas Harry albeit unconsciously accepts his humanity (yes, I can love, big deal!) and this is exactly what makes him Voldemort-proof. Which is why Dumbledore never missed the opportunity to point out for Hurry how it is important for him to stay human, to love, to have friends, etc. As for your argument about "Harry's not being the first person who loved" and Voldemort's being aware of impossibility of possessing such individuals by now, I think you give LV entirely to much credit. Because he was quite simply not aware. This is exactly what Dumbledore meant when he said that there were things his brilliant former student was "woefully ignorant" of. And he wouldn't have much of an opportunity to learn it either. Before his downfall he didn't need a body to posses, and afterwards his choice was limited to Quirrel, Pettygrew and Berta Jenkins neither of whom would present a challenge for the Dark Lord. a_svirn From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sat Aug 13 16:48:59 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:48:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summer at the Dursleys Message-ID: <12d.626e6a2d.302f7e7b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137519 In a message dated 8/13/2005 5:30:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com writes: Please feel free to use this as an opportunity to vindicate 17 long years of mistreatment.... Saraquel I actually felt that way when DD paid the Dursleys a visit in HBP. That visit was a long time coming, and I don't think I've laughed so hard at anything that didn't involve Fred and George. I can imagine that having not one, but three wizards (two who will be able to use magic legally) would completely freak the Dursleys out. Hermione will probably attempt politeness but I can't see Ron bothering even that much. Frankly, I also don't see it being a long visit. There's the wedding to attend, and then they have to begin their quest. The only thing that might delay them would be an attack by the Death Eaters. with DD gone I think all bets are off on what could or couldn't happen on Privet drive. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sat Aug 13 17:10:56 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:10:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco and the imperius Message-ID: <128.62cbba5f.302f83a0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137520 In a message dated 8/13/2005 9:47:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: > > "Jo Marelvy Samudio" wrote: > >In the tower scene before the DE's arrive, DD asks > >Draco "...Rosmerta. How long has she been under the Imperius Curse?" > > > >Malfoy did imperiused Madam Rosmerta, right? At least since Katie was > >given the necklace, so how come there were no owls with warning about > >underage use of magic? Does this mean that Malfoy had already turned > >17 by the time he performed the Imperius on Rosmerta? > > Potionat: > Draco turns 17 on June 5 of his 6th year. When does the Tower Scene > happen anyway? > > But the Underage rule seems to apply away from Hogwarts, but Hogsmeade > during the school year appears OK. However, to be honest, I'm not sure > if I really know that or if I've just assumed that. Yes, Draco does seem tobe a better wizard than we've realized. Casting and maintaining the Imperious on Rosmerta, fixing the cabinet via instructions by Owl mail, all showing real talent. As for why he could get away with underage magic, I think DD covered that in his talk with Harry by saying that the Ministry could only detect magic, not who cast it or what was cast. We were all looking at that comment as why Harry got blamed for Dobby's magic, but it was also a setup for Draco's control of Rosmerta. Who would notice another spell being cast in the most magical village in England? Simple and clever, since Draco, from a wizarding family, and with a father in the confidence of the Minister, would have been aware of that little glitch in administering the law. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 17:22:02 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:22:02 -0000 Subject: Slughorn Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137521 I think a case could be made for Slughorn having metamorphed himself into Dumbledore at the end, and I have compiled a lot of textual signals (that would make me even think it in the first place). But I haven't posted on this because I can't for the life of me determine why that would have happened. If it's a simple case of red herrings, then there are a significant number of them. I'm not in denial about Dumbledore's passing, but I do think that I'm affected to a certain degree by JK's "all bets are off" stage-setting since the opening of the book, as if she said: "Look out! People will be poly-juicing, metamorphing, felixed, or pretending to be on your side when they're not; they may be dead and pretending to be living; they may be pretending to be dead when they're alive..." and so on. In light of that, I'm willing to attribute my close examination of Slughorn to paranoia! I just don't wish to do so if there's no need. I don't think Dumbledore worked out a scheme with Snape to fake his death, and I don't think Dumbledore intended to die on the tower. I do think it's possible that if there was a scheme, it was between Dumbledore and Slughorn, or that it was solely Slughorn's, with good intentions; I think that Slughorn is definitely a good guy/not a Death Eater, and capable of far more than he lets on. I would even believe that Dumbledore is dead -- even if the tower scene were faked somehow by Slughorn, just not dead by Snape's AK -- and not the body we saw. And if they did do a switch, I don't think Slughorn died posing as Dumbledore, but that Dumbledore is gone (or dead, elsewhere, another way) and that the Slughorn who comes into the office after the tower scene is himself. With that in mind, are there any theorists who have any ideas to add? I'm not looking for proof/evidence that Dumbledore is dead (I'm familiar with all of it) or for any posts kindly admonishing me to move on. Like I said, if there's no point in speculating on this, I won't, but I want to hear from folks who think that there might be a point to it, and most importantly WHY. (Or a reasonable why-not, mainly in terms of Slughorn and not along the lines of "but the AK, the portrait, the phoenix, etc.") Thanks! hg. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 17:55:51 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:55:51 -0000 Subject: Marriage at Hogwarts and in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137522 > SSSusan: > There has also been speculation at HPfGU that McGonagall was once > married to Tom Riddle, perhaps even having a child with him. I > believe this suggestion was raised in an attempt to explain why DD > never did broadcast to the world "Lord Voldemort is really this half- > blood kid I once taught, Tom Riddle!" I mean, really, why NOT > broadcast that fact? Surely it would have lowered his esteem for > many DEs. One possible explanation was that doing so would harm > someone, that DD wanted to protect someone or someone's reputation. > If MM had been married to Tom, perhaps some people remembered that... > but never knew he turned into Voldemort. a_svirn: I don't see how it would make any difference. Most DE surely know LV's previous name. We saw Nott and Avery Sr. in the Slughorn's memory, Dumbledore in his memory named several Voldemort's henchmen who waited him (and on him) in the Hog's Head at the time when Voldemort was still recognisably "Riddleish"; and if they knew, then all of them knew, I suppose. They just knew better than advertise their knowledge. As for protecting reputations Personally I can't see Dumbledore doing anything that would give Voldemort any advantage and undermine Harry's chances to win and survive. He himself quite frankly stated that he had always been prepared to sacrifice other's lives for Harry's happiness. He was certainly ready to trade his own life for Harry's (which he did). I simply can't see him choosing McGonagall's reputation over the chance to stop Voldemort. Not to mention that McGonagall herself wouldn't allow it to happen. > SSSusan: > > A pretty Out There notion, I"ll grant :-) but I present it just as > something else which has been speculated about here concerning > Hogwarts teachers' marital status. I think HBP seemingly eliminates > this MM/Riddle possibility, too, since DD seems to have struggled to > find out where Tom went and what he did for many years. Surely if > he'd had a relationship with MM, DD would have accessed *her* > memories. > > But the question of why DD didn't tell the whole WW that TR = LV is > still intriguing, no? > a_svirn: Maybe no one asked? Dumbledore doesn't strike me as a type to write open letters to the Daily Prophet From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 13 18:00:38 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:00:38 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137523 Nora: > Isn't it about time for Harry to suck it up and get down with his own skills and unique abilities (Chosen One, right?) and do things on his merits? He has the support of his friends which should be essential, but too much support weakens the tension and the drama, as it were. > > Although Rowling likes her devices, it's not a foregone conclusion that she will keep using them. They seem to decrease in effectiveness, as well. > > -Nora wants to see Harry succeed or fail for maximum heroic effect Pippin: What if Harry wins with assistance that only he could have won? You know, Frodo saved by Gollum, Luke saved by Vader, that kind of thing. Of course, not to weaken the drama, it should come when he's given up all hope of it. Whether Harry wins alone or with help, it should underline the Big Theme, which I believe we've been told is Tolerance. Well, right now, it looks as though Tolerance is a Very Bad Idea. Was there any virtue in trying to overcome hatred, or trying to see beneath appearances? Apparently not. I can't believe Rowling's going to leave it there. We're being set up for a reversal. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-cbc-rogers.htm Lauren: In all your books, the continuing theme is that people are not what they appear to be. Sometimes they seem dangerous, and are good. Sometimes helpful people are bad. It looks like Harry is being taught to overlook first impressions and to be suspicious of people. Do you think that's something kids need to learn more than other generations? Rowling: You're right, this is a recurring theme in the books. People are endlessly surprising. It's a very jaded person who thinks they've seen every possible nuance of human nature. Sometimes I get asked 'What would be your recipe for a happier life?' And I've always said 'A bit more tolerance from all of us.' One way to learn tolerance is to take the time to really understand other people's motives. Yes, you're right. Harry is often given an erroneous first impression of someone and he has to learn to look beneath the surface. When you look beneath the surface he has sometimes found that he is being fooled by people. And on other occasions he has found very nice surprises. Pippin From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 13 18:02:04 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:02:04 -0000 Subject: Draco and the imperius In-Reply-To: <128.62cbba5f.302f83a0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at A... wrote: > > Potionat: > > Draco turns 17 on June 5 of his 6th year. When does the Tower Scene > > happen anyway? > > > > But the Underage rule seems to apply away from Hogwarts, but Hogsmeade > > during the school year appears OK. The Other Cheryl: > Yes, Draco does seem tobe a better wizard than we've realized. Casting and > maintaining the Imperious on Rosmerta, fixing the cabinet via instructions by > Owl mail, all showing real talent. As for why he could get away with underage > magic, I think DD covered that in his talk with Harry by saying that the > Ministry could only detect magic, not who cast it or what was cast. We were all > looking at that comment as why Harry got blamed for Dobby's magic, but it was also > a setup for Draco's control of Rosmerta. Who would notice another spell being > cast in the most magical village in England? Geoff: I agree that the Ministry are unable to detect who cast a spell where there may be a nmber of wizards present. However, a sentence from COS throws up an interesting point: 'Harry stood in the kitchen, clutching the mop for support as Uncle Vernon advanced on him, a demonic glint in his tiny eyes. "Read it!" he hissed evilly, brandishing the letter the owl had delivered. "Go on - read it!" Harry took it. It did not contain birthday greetings. Dear Mr.Potter We have received intelligence that a Hover Charm was used at your place of residence this evening at twelve minutes past nine.' (COS "Dobby's warning" p.21 UK edition) They may not know who has cast a spell but they /do/ know what has been cast. So, if their "intelligence" picks up an Imperius curse, which is an Unforgiveable, why wasn't something done about it or are they just slack about monitoring to the point of incompetence? From prongs103 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 13:12:14 2005 From: prongs103 at yahoo.com (prongs103) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:12:14 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137525 Annemflynn wrote: > I too think DD faked his own death. The first potion Harry made > successfully with the assistance of the HBP was Draught of the > Living Dead, which is, I believe, what DD drank in the cave. Snape > looked at DD for a split second on the tower before doing the AV > curse. I think : We are seeing more and more that Snape is a pretty > powerful wizard. We already know that he is quite the accomplished > Leglilmens and Occlumens, as is DD, which Malfoy is not and would > thus miss this whole transaction. If DD didn't hide his thoughts at > that moment, he could have conveyed to Snape that he drank the > Draught of the Living Dead. Snape, not only as potions master, but > also a DADA instructor would have known how to react to that. JKR > spent a lot of time on silent spells in this book. I think that's > the loophole. If he didn't mean the AV curse and did a silent spell > at the same...It could be my grief talking though. I think we'll be > seeing shades of Romeo and Juliet here. Plus, there's the only > Phoenix thing DD has going. I mean, there's got to be something to > that. Again, it could be my grief talking... Well I beg to differ with you on the point of Dumbledore faking his own death, Jo even said that she had to kill off Dumbledore because Harry had to do this by himself in her interview with Emerson. I do also feel that he definitely won't be alone, anyway, because of Ron and Hermione, but I think Dumbledore knew this and he trusts Harry's two best friends to help guide him along the way. By the end of this book(HBP) I was convinced that there would be more than 7 books in the series seeing as how this book left us with so many questions. Is Harry to collect ALL the rest of the horcruxes in 1 year and visit Godric's Hollow (which I am sure he will want to spend some time there)? Are he and Ginny meant to be (I certainly hope so, there was a great feeling of satisfaction as I read that he kisses her. I knew it all along! yesss!)? Was DD's death for nothing since that horcrux was a fake? And will someone please tell me who RAB is????? It seems to me like there is a lot more material for more than 1 more book, Jo would be doing a great thing to keep on writing them, as long as she writes them I will buy them. Please someone RAB!!!!!!!!!! prongs103 From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 18:13:11 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:13:11 -0000 Subject: DD is Dead/Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137526 > Potioncat: > I missed that tidbit. Wormtail worked for Snape during OoP? Can you > give me the canon? Finwitch: Well, I thought it was made obvious in the chapter Spinner's End - that, two hours after other DEs arrived (and Harry left) the graveyard (end of GoF) he did make appearance to Voldemort. As we all noticed, Wormtail was nowhere to be seen in OOP - and here, 2nd chapter of HBP we learn where he had been... No, Harry didn't *know* that in OOP, but his instinct proved right... aided by Snape's comments to Sirius AND Pettigrew's lifedebt to Harry... He could *sense* that, sense Snape's emotions...! (not that Harry's been able to put his finger to it, but...) Finwitch From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 14:20:35 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:20:35 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: *snip* > redandgoldlion had a fun theory going in post #132958 that > Trelawny's drinking enhances her divination prowess. She had two > spot-on prophecies in HBP. First she turned over a card that > indicated Harry's presence ("Knave of spades: a dark young man, > possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner"), and she never > knew it was right because Harry was hiding behind a statue to avoid > her. Then, of course, there was her prediction of the > "lightening-struck tower" Ceridwen now: Can anyone point me to the first reading, where Trelawney is turning over the hand of spades? It seems that any time I'm looking for something in particular, I can never find it. The reason I want to know is, does anyone else think the 'Knave of Spades' might refer to Snape? He has dark hair and eyes, is young compared to Dumbledore, is possibly troubled, and he dislikes Trelawney. What else was in that reading? One other thing I noticed, on page 544 of the US edition. Trelawney, bemoaning her relationship with Firenze, says in part, "...Would Dumbledore have let me teach at this great school, *put so much trust in me all these years*, had I not proved myself to him?" He placed the same sort of trust in Snape, it appears, and with similar results: no one trusts either of them, only in different ways. Ceridwen. From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 13 15:51:28 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:51:28 -0000 Subject: Harrys new Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > > I believe you are asking the wrong question... You must ask > yourslelf why Fawkes is not there... (apparently he's been absent > for quite some times in light of DD's blackened hand...no healing > tears...no fawkes swallowing said curse..) > > Why did not Harry nor DD summon fawkes to them??? Pat: I wondered that, too. Both Fawkes and Hedwig seemed to be off on holiday for book 6. I'm thinking that the healing power of a phoenix is limited. > doddimoemoe: I absolutely do not buy "so Harry could see DD > die"...that makes no sense Pat: I agree, but it would make sense that it was for the Death Eater's to see. And I'm wondering, if Snape faked the Avada Kedavra while non-verbally casting another spell, would that fulfill what he promised in his Unbreakable Vow? He didn't promise to kill Dumbledore, he promised "to carry out the deed". I'm wondering if this is a loophole. > doddimoemoe: If dd froze/imobilized Harry..then he could have done so with Draco as well. Pat: Well, no, he no longer had his wand. > doddimoemoe:(who thinks that if there is anyone who can do > it....Harry will be able to change his patronus at will--fitting > do you not think?) Pat: I believe Jo said that one's Patronus and Animagus are the same, and that you can't choose your Animagus animal, so therefore, you couldn't choose your Patrounus form either. I'm looking for the quote that made me think that. I'll keep looking, but so far, closest I've found is this in the FAQ section of JKR's website: "Members of the Order use their Patronuses to communicate with each other... each Patronus is unique and distinctive, so that there is never any doubt which Order member has sent it; nobody else can conjure another person's Patronus, so there is no danger of false messages being passed between Order members;... and this quote: "JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: kelly_holland: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you? JK Rowling replies -> No, you can't choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find that you most closely resemble a warthog." Well, maybe I'm wrong, because all you would have to do is learn to cast your Patronus, and then you'd know what animal you'd transform into. Hmm While I was poking around looking for that, I found this: "JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: Ernie: I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor Snape's Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious. JK Rowling replies -> Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but that's because it would give so much away..." I can see that his Boggart would give things away, but what could his Patronus be that would give things away? He's described as bat- like, so I'd guess his is a bat. Pat From sidney_luz at yahoo.es Sat Aug 13 16:11:52 2005 From: sidney_luz at yahoo.es (sidney_luz) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:11:52 -0000 Subject: DD couldn't be that fool! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137529 Sidney_luz wrote: I can't help to think that how a wizard like DD was totally fooled by Snape. Even when Harry told him about all the suspicions he had he still defended Snape. I think everything was planned between DD and Snape to make everyone believe DD is dead. Sidney_luz From grega126 at aol.com Sat Aug 13 18:29:27 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:29:27 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's 8th Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137530 So we know that Voldemort was obsessed with the idea of having 7 Horcruxes, b/c 7 is a magically strong number. We all now know, that he only has 5. We also know that he knows the diary has been destroyed, so he thinks he only has 6. The reason that Slughorn seems amazed that young Tom Riddle is even thinking about having that many is b/c to have that many, you'd have to kill that many people. Based on the blase way that he has Wormtail kill Cedric in GoF ("Kill the spare"), he doesn't put any more thought into it than most people would about brushing their teeth. All that being said, what't to keep Voldemort from creating an additional Horcrux in order to keep it at the magically strong number 7. Amelia Bones was a very powerful witch that Dumbledore was upset about losing. Why couldn't Voldemort have used this murder to get his number of Horcruxes back up to the magically strong number of 7? Greg From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Sat Aug 13 18:40:57 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:40:57 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137531 Pat wrote: > I can see that his Boggart would give things away, but what could > his Patronus be that would give things away? He's described as bat- > like, so I'd guess his is a bat. He is also described as moving like a spider (in the Pensieve scene, I think), the title of Chapter 2 in Spinner's End, and then there is the sphinx riddle in GOF about the spy-der, and Snape is obviously a spy...maybe a Spider patronus? Cheryl From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 19:01:01 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:01:01 -0000 Subject: Summer at the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <12d.626e6a2d.302f7e7b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RoxyElliot at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 8/13/2005 5:30:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > saraquel_omphale at y... writes: > > Please feel free to use this as an opportunity to vindicate 17 long > years of mistreatment.... > Saraquel > > Now Cindy: I really don't know which way JKR will go with this. I think the Dursley's received their "dressing down" from DD in HBP. The Dursleys have been against Harry all this time because of magic. If Harry uses magic against them for revenge, have they not been right all along? (in their minds). I look for more of a connection between Petunia and Harry. I wonder if Petunia will be critical in finding a horcrux. She might be full of information surprises since she is so nosy and an eavesdropper. It would be fun if it was Petunia that does magic late in life (but I think it's Filch defending something or someone at Hogwarts in book 7), I'd love a scene where Harry and Petunia conjure their patronus against a dementor attack on Harry's birthday. Lordy, what would hers be? An anteater? Cindy From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sat Aug 13 19:15:13 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:15:13 -0000 Subject: Summer at the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <12d.626e6a2d.302f7e7b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RoxyElliot at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 8/13/2005 5:30:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > saraquel_omphale at y... writes: > > Please feel free to use this as an opportunity to vindicate 17 long > years of mistreatment.... > Saraquel > > > I actually felt that way when DD paid the Dursleys a visit in HBP. That > visit was a long time coming, and I don't think I've laughed so hard at anything > that didn't involve Fred and George. > > I can imagine that having not one, but three wizards (two who will be able > to use magic legally) would completely freak the Dursleys out. Hermione will > probably attempt politeness but I can't see Ron bothering even that much. > Frankly, I also don't see it being a long visit. There's the wedding to > attend, and then they have to begin their quest. The only thing that might delay > them would be an attack by the Death Eaters. with DD gone I think all bets > are off on what could or couldn't happen on Privet drive. > > Roxanne > http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com > > In Book 7 - I think Privet Drive will be the most interesting yet. The only time Petunia spoke during DD's visit was her surprised and no doubt frightened outburst when DD mentioned Harry coming of age the following summer. Petunia thought she had two years to "come clean" with Vernon about what is going to happen once Harry's protection is over. She'll be the one whose powers come on late in life - she has been in denial all her life - never wanted to be different and so suppressed her magical gift. She'll need to call on her limited and untrained powers to protect her family. Will Harry help her learn - maybe, he has such a good heart. They never treated him well (an understatement) but he will not leave them alone in mortal peril. IMHO, BG From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 19:20:26 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:20:26 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137534 vmonte: I just reread this scene again. What exactly did this potion do to Dumbledore? Is he reliving something or repeating someone else's words? If the potion is making Dumbledore relive his worst moment what could it be? Is this Snape's confession regarding the Potter's? or is this unrelated to Snape? Was Dumbledore was always good? or was he also given a second chance by someone? Perhaps Dumbledore's worst moment in life had to do with facing up to some wrongs he had once committed. Does the "Love Room" force you to "face the music?" I really want Dumbledore to have always been good, so I welcome counter arguments. If Dumbledore is a reformed bad guy then perhaps that is why he could not defeat Voldemort and why Harry still can. Maybe the key to destroying Voldemort is to have never killed. (Who is Grindelwald? Please tell me Dumbledore was not this man once...) Vivian The Cave: "I don't want...Don't make me..." "...don't like...want to stop..." "No..." "I don't want to...I don't want to...Let me go..." "Make it stop, make it stop..." "No, no, no, no, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to..." "It's all my fault, all my fault...Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..." "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..." Please, please, please, no...not that, not that, I'll do anything..." "No more, please, no more..." Dumbledore is now screaming: "I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!" "KILL ME!" Harry: "This--this one will!" gasped Harry. "Just drink this...It'll be over...all over!" From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 19:39:20 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:39:20 -0000 Subject: backstory "explanations" In-Reply-To: <20050812185018.37903.qmail@web52411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137535 Finwitch: Others have pointed out the JKR telling us that James is definately Harry's father... I'll just say that Snape's Worst Memory in OOP shows how James was most definately in love with LILY in his 5th year. So, unless Lily fed him Love Potion, that theory is way off... Sure, Sirius&James were close as twins, which might be due to Sirius hanging on to James for moral support against his family. Leaving Black house for Potters definately shows something like that. Also, I think that the reason why James could trust Sirius so *completely* is that as Sirius was made Harry's godfather, this was made with an Unbreakable Vow... but only James, Lily and Sirius knew. Finwith From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 19:59:18 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:59:18 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: vivian: > I just reread this scene again. What exactly did this potion do to > Dumbledore? Is he reliving something or repeating someone else's > words? -- > I really want Dumbledore to have always been good, so I welcome > counter arguments. If Dumbledore is a reformed bad guy then perhaps > that is why he could not defeat Voldemort and why Harry still can. > The Cave: > > "I don't want...Don't make me..." > > "...don't like...want to stop..." > > "No..." > > "I don't want to...I don't want to...Let me go..." > > "Make it stop, make it stop..." > > "No, no, no, no, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to..." > > "It's all my fault, all my fault...Please make it stop, I know I did > wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..." > > "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, > hurt me instead..." > > Please, please, please, no...not that, not that, I'll do anything..." > > "No more, please, no more..." > > Dumbledore is now screaming: > > "I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to > die!" > > "KILL ME!" Finwitch: It sounds to me that Dumbledore is witnessing some 'them' being seriously mistreated, tortured perhaps... he's taking the blame to protect them and offering himself to the harm in 'their' stead - as he did in OOP with the DA business - and then he WAS being tortured to the point where he just wants to DIE rather than keep suffering. I think that - it MIGHT be that the torture was done by dementors AND some wizards using Cruciatus (seemingly) in punishment for something. Dementor-like affect appears quite likely to me. Finwitch From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Sat Aug 13 20:06:43 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:06:43 -0000 Subject: Themes in the HP series ( Was: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137537 Dan wrote: > Before this discussion, though, the question of what needs to be > answered, not just plotwise, but in accordance with the stated > intentions of the author and the hit-over-the-head thematic importance > of acting on a sense of justice, a desire for truth, and love in the > books must be set clearly before those taking sides on the debate. > > Is it worth it to attmept this? Or should I just go into lurk for a > couple years, satisfying myself that once the plot irritants are more > or less cleared up, the themes of the writing can safely be addressed? Based on my reading, here are my musings/thoughts on some of the themes in the HP books: 1) Love/Compassion: I've enjoyed the posts here on Last Judgement Love. The type of love discussed here is not romantic or sentimental love, but seems to be more in keeping with the notion of compassion...which is something Harry seems, IMO, to have in greater abundance than average. Note his reaction to learning about Tom Riddle's past. Dumbledore's aim, presumably, in showing him these memories is so he can have greater knowledge of Lord Voldemort's modus operandi: His need to collect trophies, his fear of death and desire for immortality, his demonstrating an inclination and ability for cruelty at an early age...but Harry's learning about his past has an additional effect: he comes, to some extent, to understand some of the causes and conditions that led Tom Riddle to become the way that he is, and thus, comes to have some compassion for the boy that was Tom Riddle. Dumbledore asks Harry whether he is feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort and Harry replies that he is not, but compassion is different than pity and different than feeling sorry for someone. Compassion also allows for a sense of justice. Compassion, IMO, is the deep understanding of the causes and conditions that led a person to be and act the way they are. Part of those causes and conditions can be nature, others nurture. My mother, who is, at times, a litany of cliches and sayings used to say, "There, for the grace of God, go I". Compassion is understanding this; understanding that if I were subject to the same causes and conditions this person had been subjected to, I may have had similar responses (also, keeping in mind however, that choice, which is another theme in these books also comes into play here, and choice, ulimately trumps a person's background: One may have been subject to an abusive background, and that, in turn makes that person more likely to be an abuser, but it it ulimately a person's choices that determine what they are to become). One can have compassion for even someone like Tom Riddle, while at the same time demanding that justice be served, while acknowledging that they need to be defeated so they can no longer harm others. To reference another book: In Lord of the Rings, Frodo decides not to kill Gollum and later Sam makes the comment that it was a pity he hadn't killed him, to which Ganalf replies, "Pity? It was pity that stayed his hand". In my mind, this was in part pity, but also compassion. Frodo, from having carried the ring himself, has an insight that nobody else has about what Gollum has gone through, and he even sees, in Gollum, a bit of what the ring could do to him. (Going a little off on a tangent, I've noted a couple people making parallels here, in the past between Gollum and Snape. In my mind however, if there are any parallels here it would be between Gollum and Peter Pettigrew, as Harry made the decision not to kill him or allow Lupin and Sirius to kill him, and, as Gollum did, I think he "still has a part to play" in all this, though I think that might be through a decision he makes because of his life debt to Harry vs. the part Gollum played in which there was no redemption for him...he just saved the day by biting Frodo's finger off because of his corruption by the ring). 2) Redemption: Quote from JK Rowling Interview: " There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say." I think redemption is an important theme in these books. We have several characters who could have an "important kind of redemptive pattern" happening. I think an important question, however, is the nature of redemption in these books, and the question of who can be redeemed? Now, in HBP, we have the concept of the soul and based on this book, and JKR's comments, the books are looking less secular. We are told that acts like murder tear the soul, and that the Horcrux, the most wicked of magical inventions, takes this a step further and actually places a piece of that torn soul into an object. My question here is: can torn souls be mended, and how far does that redemption extend? In Christian theology, that redemption seems to be unlimited if a person has truly repented. In the HP books, can someone who has torn their soul through unforgiveable curses (are they truly unforgiveable?), cruel acts, etc., but then is truly repentant, makes amends in a big way, even to the point of sacrificing themselves or their most dear ambitions to make amends for their wrongs -- is that person able to mend their torn soul and make it whole again (at least if they haven't make horcruxes and all of their soul-parts are there)? We don't really know what happens to the soul-parts when a horcrux is destroyed...perhaps they go back to the original piece of soul and we will find, in book 7, an increasingly human LV with a more complete soul, although one that is not intact. Back again to the Last Judgement Love posts -- what would happen if a conscience could be magically injected in to a sociopath like LV and he was forced to face all the wrongs he had done? This might, in fact, be a punishment worse than death. 3) Choice: "It is our choices that define us, not our abilities." The theme of choice seems to be a strong one in the HP books. As I stated above, it is important to understand someone's background in understanding the path they have taken, but, ultimately, that path is a choice -- our choices, as with the characters in the HP books, define what we are and will become. And, of course, the choice between what is easy and what is right. IMO, one important thing about Harry is that he is not the perfect hero, which makes him more interesting, but his choices are one thing that do make him courageous and heroic. He frequently does choose what is right over what is easy: choosing to let Peter Pettigrew live, the underwater rescue in GOF, going to great lengths to stop the theft of the Philosopher's Stone (Sorcerer's Stone here in the U.S., I like the original title better: (, as a few examples. What are some other instances of right vs. easy? I think the question of choice is one reason I enjoy speculating over what happened on the tower -- because it is so murky. We don't really know what happened there, except as we saw it throught Harry's eyes. If Snape is truly with LV or in it for himself, then, of course, he made the easy choice over the right choice: to kill Dumbledore and to spare his own life. However, if there was a plan in place, or if somehow Snape knew that Dumbledore was already dying from the potion or ring injury, but that by doing the AK (fake or real) on Dumbledore, and getting him off the tower, he could accomplish the following: 1) save Draco and prevent him from becoming a murderer, and perhaps get LV to spare him or to hide him from LV 2) Save himself, thus possibly getting himself deeper into the DE camp so he can assist the fight against LV in some way 3) Keep Fenrir from chomping on Dumbledore by getting his body out of the way 4)Lead the DEs out of Hogwarts, then it is not so clear. In this case, could doing what he did be considered making the right choice over the easy choice? Any other thoughts on themes in the HP books? Thanks. Cheryl From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 20:12:34 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:12:34 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > I just reread this scene again. What exactly did this potion do to > Dumbledore? Is he reliving something or repeating someone else's > words? > > If the potion is making Dumbledore relive his worst moment what could > it be... > > Was Dumbledore was always good? or was he also given a second chance > by someone? > > > Perhaps Dumbledore's worst moment in life had to do with facing up to > some wrongs he had once committed. > > > Does the "Love Room" force you to "face the music?" > > I really want Dumbledore to have always been good, so I welcome > counter arguments. If Dumbledore is a reformed bad guy then perhaps > that is why he could not defeat Voldemort and why Harry still can. > > Maybe the key to destroying Voldemort is to have never killed. > > (Who is Grindelwald? Please tell me Dumbledore was not this man > once...) > > Vivian hekatesheadband: My guess is that Dumbledore has always been good - but that doesn't mean he hasn't made mistakes! He may feel responsible for the harm that's befallen people because of decisions he's had to make or actions he'd had to take, even if the harm was inevitable, unavoidable, or unintentional. He could be remembering some incident from his childhood, or blaming himself unfairly, as people tend to do. JKR has said that Dumbledore _is_ goodness - but notice that she didn't say "perfection!" The best person in the world can't live 150 years without commiting some non-venial sins. That said, one brilliant livejournal user has come up with an explanation that seems to be better supported by the text than any other I've encountered. (You can find it at http://www.livejournal.com/users/vejgurl/, entries on HBP chapters 13 and 26.) She suggests Dumbledore is reliving what happened in that cave when Tom Riddle took the other children there. She suggests that his words may belong to more than one original speaker - and that a fourth person, someone very interested in Tom, a wizard who found him first, might have been there as well. That's of course speculative, as she acknowledges, but it's a very interesting possibility. -hekatesheadband Because the Sorting Hat is really Bono. From kjones at telus.net Sat Aug 13 20:13:03 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:13:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FE544F.5010800@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137539 jjjjjuliep wrote: > > jjjjjuliep wrote: > > > > > Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? > > > > > Good question. No, she is not, but[Laughter]. No, she is not a > > > Squib. She is a Muggle, but[Laughter]. You will have to read the > > > other books. You might have got the impression that there is a > > > little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will > > > find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very > > > good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being > > > shockingly indiscreet. > > ----------------- > > > > > JKR has made it abundantly clear that 1. Muggles cannot do magic, > > > and 2. Petunia is a Muggle. > Where on Earth, or in the books and interviews, is the canon for > this? I am extremely perplexed as to how the author of the series > can say over and over that Petunia is a Muggle and yet those comments > are completely ignored. > If the canon says, without the trace of a doubt, that Petunia is a > Muggle, and this is said quite clearly by the author herself--the > person who knows how the books are going to turn out and the person > who has never lied to us in interviews, then how is it possible that > Petunia is going to do magic? I am completely perplexed. Do the > author's own words mean absolutely nothing to some people? > jujube Kathy writes: I think one of the key phrases taken from JKR's interview is " She is a Muggle, but." While we know that Dumbledore's protections will fall upon Harry reaching his majority, we do not know anything about Lily's. It is also not really drawn to our attention that the same blood flows in Petunia's veins. We don't really know how the "blood" protection works or how that transfer of blood to Voldemort will affect anything. I could imagine, that under attack, and in life-threatening circumstances, that same blood protection could cause a magical reaction similar to uncontrolled magic in children by Petunia. It could be that Lily believed that someone of the same blood could be trusted to protect her son and that they would have to be protected somehow themselves in order to protect Harry. It's going to be a long two years. KJ From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 13 20:26:04 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:26:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney's part in HBP: Planting info on the Tarot D... Message-ID: <1d8.42e77ac5.302fb15c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137540 In a message dated 8/13/2005 9:26:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Aisbelmon at hotmail.com writes: In my experience there is one certain answer to this question: someone so obssessively consulting the Tarot, as Trelawney is in HBP, is looking for *her* answer. She is the Querent, and she *wants* something, and the Tarot isn't telling her what she wants to hear. =============== Sherrie here: We're not in disagreement here, Valky -I had the same take on it when I read that scene. Sybil is entirely focused on herself - and as we know she ALWAYS sees the darkest portents, well, the positive aspects of that card (renewal, cleansing, as I see it) are entirely lost to her. I wonder which book(s) JKR cribbed the meanings from? I'm fairly sure she's not a reader! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 13 20:44:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:44:17 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ceridwennight" wrote: Ceridwen: > Can anyone point me to the first reading, where Trelawney is turning > over the hand of spades? It seems that any time I'm looking for > something in particular, I can never find it. The reason I want to > know is, does anyone else think the 'Knave of Spades' might refer to > Snape? He has dark hair and eyes, is young compared to Dumbledore, > is possibly troubled, and he dislikes Trelawney. What else was in > that reading? Geoff: With pleasure. 'Harry proceeded through deserted corridors, though he had to step hastily behind a statue when Professor Trelawney appeared round a corner, muttering to herself as she shuffled a pack of dirty-looking playing cards, reading them as she walked. "Two of spades: conflict," she muttered as she passed the place where Harry crouched, hidden. "Seven of spades: an ill omen. Ten of spades: violence. Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner -" She stopped dead, right on the other side of Harry's statue. "Well, that can't be right," she said, annoyed and Harry heard her reshuffling vigorously as she set off again, leaving nothing but a whiff of cooking sherry behind her.' (HBP "The House of Gaunt" p.185 UK edition) From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 20:50:20 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:50:20 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137542 "vmonte" wrote: > Was Dumbledore was always good? > or was he also given a second chance > by someone? Perhaps Dumbledore's > worst moment in life had to do with > facing up to some wrongs he had > once committed. Dumbledore: Why did you go to the Aurors? Why didn't you come to me first? Grindelwald: What do you want of me? Tell me anything, but do what I beg you to do. Dumbledore: What is that? (Grindelwald whispers his request in the Headmaster's ear.) That I cannot do. Grindelwald: I will give you anything you ask. Dumbledore: We've known each other many years, but this is the first time you ever came to me for counsel or for help. I can't remember the last time that you invited me to your house for a cup of coffee. But let's be frank here. You never wanted my friendship. And uh, you were afraid to be in my debt. Grindelwald: I didn't want to get into trouble. Dumbledore: I understand. You found paradise in Hogwarts, you had a good trade, you made a good living. The Aurors protected you and there were wizard laws too. And you didn't need a friend like me. But uh, now you come to me and you say -' Give me justice.' But you don't ask with respect. You don't offer friendship. You don't even think to call me Headmaster. Instead, you come into my office and you, uh, ask me to do murder for money. Grindelwald: I ask you for justice. Dumbledore: That is not justice. Your daughter is still alive. Grindelwald: Let them suffer then, as she suffers. How much shall I pay you? Dumbledore: (after standing and turning his back): Grindelwald, Grindelwald. What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? If you'd come to me in friendship, then this scum that ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And if by chance an honest man like yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies. And then they would fear you. Grindelwald: Be my friend - - Headmaster. (Dumbledore shrugs. Grindelwald bows toward the headmaster and kisses the Dumbledore's hand.) Dumbledore: Good. (The Headmaster puts his hand on Grindelwald shoulder.) Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But uh, until that day - accept this justice as a gift. Grindelwald: Grazie, headmaster. Eggplant From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 13 20:57:37 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:57:37 -0000 Subject: Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: Saraquel: > Clarifying here. So are we now saying that we have an actual > physically manifested piece (for want of a better word) of the > Power of Last Judgement Love that we have been talking about in > Harry's blood? If the parallels to JKR's faith are in play here (I > believe she said that no-one after reading the end of the series > could be in any doubt about her faith.) Then Lily's choice could > have paralleled Christ's choice. I say that with the greatest > caution, as I in no way wish to offend anyone. The last thing that > I wish to imply is that Lily is Christ in some way, especially > as I do not adhere to Christianity or any other religion, but > have great respect for all faiths. But perhaps it parallels it in > some way. That Lily's choice, whatever it was, was a redemptive > choice. It was a choice which offered hope to everyone. Geoff: Speaking as an evangelical Christian, I see nothing to make me take offence to your comments. I am reminded of one of Christ's comments which I feel is germane to this discussion: "Greater love has no-one than this, that he lays down his life for his friends" (New Testament John 15:13) This very much echoed by Dumbledore in an early discussion with Harry: "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realise that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever. It is in your very skin." (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.216 UK edition) This is comparable with Christ's love for us - at least on a human level. Other Christians on the group will know, as I do, that when we accept the love of Christ and he enters our lives to live with us, then we know that mark and protection. From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Aug 13 18:52:43 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:52:43 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137544 > > Pippin: > What if Harry wins with assistance that only he could have won? You > know, Frodo saved by Gollum, Luke saved by Vader, that kind of thing. First of all, I think a huge percentage of her readers would roll their eyes and say "So you never finished LotR, huh, Jo? So you aren't doing Star Wars? Yeah, right." Second, how would winning Snape's help be something "only Harry could do" if Snape is in fact super spy? Presumably Snape would help any member of team Dumbledore out to bring down Voldemort. Harry, Lupin, Ron, Hermione, Moody, McGonagall, it would not matter to super spy, he would help whoever had a chance. And if we say Snape knows the prophecy, that doesn't speak to the matter, either. Harry would still not have "won" Snape's help, but only be the instrument to an end Snape already wants. The only way such a scenario could play out, in which forgiveness and love, the power Voldemort knows not, "wins" Harry help only he could win, would be if Snape has, indeed, done something terrible and Harry's forgiveness grants him genuine redemption. And at this point I don't think we're talking classroom interaction, or about something Snape did long ago and has been paying for ever since. At this point I think we're talking something personally known to Harry that really HAS separated Snape from the good side (not just apparently, but in truth) and for which Harry's forgiveness grants him a genuine new hold on a new way of being. > > Of course, not to weaken the drama, it should come when he's given > up all hope of it. Whether Harry wins alone or with help, it should > underline the Big Theme, which I believe we've been told is > Tolerance. Well, right now, it looks as though Tolerance is a Very > Bad Idea. Was there any virtue in trying to overcome hatred, or > trying to see beneath appearances? Apparently not. > > I can't believe Rowling's going to leave it there. We're being set up > for a reversal. > Well, that is of course a belief you are perfectly entitled to, and for which there is a great deal of evidence. However, Rowling has given us a great deal of evidence going the other way, as well. And even if we are being set up for a reversal, what KIND of reversal? First of all, if it is Snape, is super spy the only kind of scenario, or even the best one, that would grant him redemption? Does redemption have to mean, as I ask above, that he is innocent? The power of love is the power of forgiveness, and you don't have to forgive people who aren't in the wrong. Love and compassion mean understanding a person's motives and foregiving them for genuine misdeeds. Piercing through illusion isn't loving or compassionate, per se, merely perceptive. Harry's power ISN'T perception, but love. And at this point the power of love would not be very well illustrated if Snape put forth a logical argument with evidence that he is, after all, innocent and Harry says, "I dislike you but the evidence is on your side and I'm going to listen to the evidence rather than my dislike." No, the power of love would be best illustrated if Snape reveals the reasons that he genuinely fell from grace and Harry says "I cannot abolish your objective guilt, Severus, but I will have compassion on your suffering and grant you foregiveness for your crime, just as Dumbledore did for your deeds long ago." And why should the reversal be about Severus? We have two more candidates for redemption -- Wormtail and Draco. Are all of them going to be redeemed? That would make for a good moral message but would be, from a literary standpoint, extremely over the top. Two I could see, I guess, but even that seems like straining the point. Is Severus truly the best candidate for redemption? Lupinlore From prongs103 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 20:28:49 2005 From: prongs103 at yahoo.com (prongs103) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:28:49 -0000 Subject: DD and RAB Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137545 I am utterly perplexed by the fact that DD's death and the escape of Snape bares no obvious fruit, since the horcrux which Harry and DD set out to find (consequently leaving the castle alone without dd's presence, allowing the death eaters in) turns out to be fake. So DD poisoned himself and left the castle vulnerable ultimately leading to his death, for a FAKE horcrux? Cmon Mrs. Jo Rowling, WHY? Someone please help me to understand this. Also this RAB character, who is this? It can't be anyone that is contact with DD b/c they would have told him of there discovery and actions. This has been the biggest question on my mind since finishing the book, the other being, will Harry and Ginny end up together(I hope so)? Sorry this post jumps around so much, I am new to the group. Prongs. From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Sat Aug 13 21:11:52 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:11:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Also, the "plan" was one of those elements of OOTP that got very > swiftly swept under the rug -- I suspect because it raised doubts > about DD's character and moral fiber that JKR did not intend to > raise. It wouldn't surprise me very much if we never heard about it again, or if we do it is only in passing and it turns out to have > been only keeping Harry alive. > Hmmm. I agree that DD did not look good when he suggested that Harry's whole upbringing was manipulated to suit some master plan. This is a quote from OOTP, p738 'Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine' said Dumbledore. Wonderful plan!! Simply to prepare Harry for Voldemort! It just doesn't quite add up.> > > > Well, that seems to be an all-or-nothing interpretation. I see no > reason why Snape would have to be completely evil and/or that > Dumbledore would have to be a complete fool. We as yet have no idea > of many of Snape's motivations. Perhaps he was loyal to Dumbledore > until something happened that overrode that loyalty. Possibilities > for such a scenario? Perhaps he hates Harry too much to continue > working with him, and the hate bubbled over at the worst possible > moment. Perhaps he simply could not bring himself to die for the old > man. Perhaps Draco is his illegitimate son and he found himself > forced to choose between DD's life and Draco's. Perhaps he does > suffer something like an addiction to the Dark Arts and his sickness > drove him insane. Perhaps he was loyal to DD because he has sworn an > unbreakable oath to keep Harry alive, and his resentment finally got > the better of him. Any of these scenarios -- along with many, many > others -- would save DD from complete foolishness. He simply > underestimated the depth of Snape's feelings, and thus did not > realize how a given situation would affect the Potions Master. Snape > has certainly shown in the past that he allows his personal feelings > to interfere with the war against Voldemort, with disastrous > consequences. And DD has shown that, in his detachment, he was not > capable of anticipating Snape's behavior. > These are all plausible I suppose - they simply are far less logical than DD being right about Snape, and Snape being now the perfect spy! It seems that all the Snape-Evil posters are forgetting DD's words - There are things far worse than death!! Brothergib From kjones at telus.net Sat Aug 13 21:22:30 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:22:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FE6496.6030103@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137547 vmonte wrote: > vmonte: > I just reread this scene again. What exactly did this potion do to > Dumbledore? Is he reliving something or repeating someone else's > words? > Is this Snape's confession regarding the Potter's? or is this > unrelated to Snape? > Vivian Kathy writes: I have posted on this previously. I believe that, as Snape had to go back to Voldemort in the interests of the Order, Dumbledore took Snape's memories that could not be seen by Voldemort and stored them in his own head. > The Cave: > > "I don't want...Don't make me..." > > "...don't like...want to stop..." Snape being forced into the Death Eaters by his mother's family??? > "No..." > > "I don't want to...I don't want to...Let me go..." > > "Make it stop, make it stop..." > > "No, no, no, no, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to..." Snape taking the Dark Mark against his will???? > > "It's all my fault, all my fault...Please make it stop, I know I did > wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..." Snape finding out Voldemort's plans to use the prophesy information???? > > "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, > hurt me instead..." Snape at Godric's Hollow??? > > Please, please, please, no...not that, not that, I'll do anything..." Snape's memory of Lily's last words??? > > "No more, please, no more..." Snape being sent back to spy by Dumbledore on Voldemort's rise??? > > Dumbledore is now screaming: > > "I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to > die!" Snape's response to being told that when it comes he must be the one to kill Dumbledore??? > > "KILL ME!" Snape's memory of Dumbledore's last command to him???? I think this fits suspiciously well and was what I thought from the first reading. I don't believe that Dumbledore has ever in his life done anything that would make these memories his and it would certainly explain why Dumbledore knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where Snape's loyalties lay. KJ From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 21:50:23 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:50:23 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: <42FE6496.6030103@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137548 KJ wrote: I don't believe that Dumbledore has ever in his life done anything that would make these memories his and it would certainly explain why Dumbledore knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where Snape's loyalties lay. vmonte: I hope your right, but I was just thinking that Dumbledore's words could be JKR's way of giving DD his last confession. Dumbledore has been set-up by JKR to be almost Saint-like from the first book. But is he? In every book there is always someone who is revealed to be someone or something else. The good guys are the bad guys and vise versa; and people are always using polyjuice to change from one person to another. Moody is Crouch Jr., Harry and Ron are Crab and Goyle, Grab and Goyle are girls. Tom Riddle is the perfect student and Hagrid let the monster out. (And forget about Snape, he annoys me just as much as Trelawny's prophecies.) We are so busy considering everyone else's motives that we never even look into Dumbledore's role in all this. Where did he come from, and what is his stake in all this? Was he given another chance by someone? Is that why he gives everyone else second chances? Was his soul saved? Is part of his penance that he has to convert others? Does Dumbledore represent St. Paul? Vivian "Snape is now no more a Death Eater than I am." From lfreeman at mbc.edu Sat Aug 13 21:54:34 2005 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:54:34 -0400 Subject: Summer at the Durseleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137549 What I'd love to see: The D's preparing for yet another Very Important Dinner Party with which do woo drill clients: Petunia preparing things in the kitchen with her usual precision, desperate to impress these people. Hermione helps her out a little with magic and Petunia blows up at her, unleashing all her hostility toward Lily. Hermione rushes from the kitchen in tears, with Petunia screaming horrible things after her about her parents and what idiots they are not to squash all the magic out of her, etc. Enter Vernon, with his as-yet-unnamed clients, the Drs. Granger, who had kept their visit secret thinking it would be a nice surprise for their daughter. So much for expanding into that dental drill market... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 22:28:55 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:28:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137550 Brothergib: > This is a quote from OOTP, p738 > 'Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine' said Dumbledore. > > Wonderful plan!! Simply to prepare Harry for Voldemort! It just > doesn't quite add up.> Alla: I am not quite sure why it does not quite fit for you, because for me it fits perfectly, since Dumbledore knows that Harry is the one with the power to defeat Voldemort. So, it makes perfect sense to em that Dumbledore's plan would be to ensure Harry's safety ( and yes,after HBP I AM convinced that this was the only reason Dumbledore placed him with Dursleys, thanks G-d, JKR did not mention " it is better for him top grow up away from WW" crap :-)) The other part would be to train Harry to help him beat Voldemort and survive ( and again I AM convinced that DD does not think of Harry as a weapon). Lupinlore: > > Well, that seems to be an all-or-nothing interpretation. I see no > > reason why Snape would have to be completely evil and/or that > > Dumbledore would have to be a complete fool. We as yet have no > idea > > of many of Snape's motivations. Perhaps he was loyal to Dumbledore > > until something happened that overrode that loyalty. Possibilities > > for such a scenario? Brothergib: > These are all plausible I suppose - they simply are far less logical > than DD being right about Snape, and Snape being now the perfect spy! Alla: Erm... Lupinlore's scenarios may be less logical for you, to each their own of course, but to me they make much MORE sense and much more consistent with internal logic of Potterverse ( just my opinion of course) than Dumbledore asking Snape in advance to kill him, while increasing Hary's hatred of Snape many times more and expecting Harry to trust Snape to help him save the day when moment comes) The main reason of course would be as others stated that it is Harry's story and he is supposed to play the main role at the end, not Superspy saving the day. Don't get me wrong, I CAN see scenarios of Snape being good , but making a horrible choice to kill DD, because Snape thinks he can help a good guys this way, or saving Draco, etc( Severely Siguine's essay being the best example), BUT in all those scenarious I don't see Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him ( at least not in advance). Whatever was in Snape head at the Tower, I don't see JKR let him get away with murder, I just don't. As always, I am prepared to eat a nice crow. :-) Brothergib: > It seems that all the Snape-Evil posters are forgetting DD's words - > There are things far worse than death!! > Alla: Erm... I try not to do generalisations, so I will speak for myself only :-) YES, there are things worse than Death, but could you or anybody else point to me to ANY moment in Potterverse, which indicates that there are things worse than MURDER? Just me of course, Alla. From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Aug 13 21:49:10 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:49:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137551 Brotherjib wrote: > > > These are all plausible I suppose - they simply are far less logical > than DD being right about Snape, and Snape being now the perfect spy! Less logical? Chuckle. I think we are now at the point of irreconcilable perceptions. Many agree with you. Many of us, however, find just about ANYTHING more logical than a super- conspiracy, super-spy, Puppetmaster!Dumbledore scenario. I personally think such a thing would be straight out of the worst fanfiction, not to mention the worst comic books and the most uninspired soap operas. I hope that Severus turns out to be more human after the seventh book - not less. And, as nrenka has pointed out, a Severus who made a definite decision sixteen years ago and has stuck unwaveringly to it, in the process becoming the world's greatest spy, one of the world's greatest and most successful super conspirators, and probably a martyr for the good, isn't particularly believable or satisfying -- especially since such a character threatens to displace Harry as the hero of the entire series. > > It seems that all the Snape-Evil posters are forgetting DD's words - > There are things far worse than death!! Not at all! Many Snape-Evil people (I don't include myself with them, by the way, since I think Snape has definite Good AND definite Evil in his character) point out that the thing that is worse than death is having your soul ripped into shreds by murder, thus condemning yourself to a nightmare partial existance. And why would Dumbledore, the epitome of goodness, ask someone to do that to themselves? Lupinlore From jwheeler at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 13 22:40:00 2005 From: jwheeler at sbcglobal.net (appellj) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:40:00 -0000 Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 - Kreacher in the cave! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137552 > Rachel now: > > I don't think it's at all out of left field that she introduces > Regulus as a more important character. JK loves to tell us one > little thing and then bring it back in a huge way. > > Anyway, it would be cool if Kreacher was the one to drink the > poison. But, wouldn't his mistress still have been in charge of > him? Are we assuming that Mrs. Black died before Regulus joined the > DE? Sirius says, "My parents thought he was a right little hero for > joining up at first." Or something similar...I'm paraphrasing. It > cannot be that Mrs. Black would have been trying to defeat LV, can > it??? appellj: I think this all makes sense now. Regalus did take Kreacher to the cave and used Kreacher to get the locket, which is how Kreacher's mind got so permanently addled. They returned home with it, as others have quoted from OOTP pg. 116 US edition: "There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound...also a heavey locket that none of them could open..." My guess is that Kreacher betrayed Regulus to Mrs. Black, and she turned him over to LV. Now, even more interesting is the fact that Kreacher keeps sneaking items out of the sack in which they're trying to dispose of Black family items, and then on pg. 504, when Harry and Hermione and Ron go to Kreacher's "bedroom", it says this: "In a far corner glinted small objects and coins that Harry guessed Kreacher had saved, magpielike, from Sirius's purge of the house..." Remember that DD said that LV was magpielike in his approach to collecting things? I can't believe this is a coincidence. So my full hypothesis is that when Mrs. Black turned in Regulus, she ordered Kreacher to protect the locket, and possbily one more Horcrux: the silver goblet that Mundungus steals from the Black house that Ron picks up when they run into him in Hogsmeade. Could it be that Kreacher was protecting both of these Horcruxes, and now Mundungus has stolen one of them (the goblet) and is either trying to get it back to LV (because he's now working for LV or is just being opportunistic) or is just trying to sell it, unaware of what he has? So in book 7, Harry will have to visit 12 Grimmauld place to get the locket but maybe find out that that's been stolen too, visit Mundungus in Azkaban to get information about where the goblet and locket are (we'll finally get to see Azkaban through Harry's eyes), we're going to get to see Godric's Hollow at last, Harry goes to the Dursleys again, Harry goes to the burrow again, Harry will probably go to Spinner's End/Riddle House/Marvolo's house/Hogwarts/the ministery and every other place he's ever been. I just hope that along the way, we finally get to hear about Hagrid's story and how his dad died. Anyway, I've been wrong in just about every single one of my hypotheses throughout the series, but I think the Kreacher/Regulus/Mundungus horcrux connection is the soundest one so far. Appellj. From kjones at telus.net Sat Aug 13 22:58:53 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:58:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FE7B2D.1090007@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137553 vmonte wrote: > KJ wrote: > I don't believe that Dumbledore has ever in his life done anything > that would make these memories his and it would certainly > explain why Dumbledore knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where Snape's > loyalties lay. > > vmonte: > I hope your right, but I was just thinking that Dumbledore's words > could be JKR's way of giving DD his last confession. > > Dumbledore has been set-up by JKR to be almost Saint-like from the > first book. But is he? > We are so busy considering everyone else's motives that we never even > look into Dumbledore's role in all this. Where did he come from, and > what is his stake in all this? > Vivian > "Snape is now no more a Death Eater than I am." Kathy writes: I think you make some mighty fine points. I think in a comparison of good and evil, Dumbledore and Voldemort are just as single-minded in their pursuit of their goals. Voldemort makes use of people. Dumbledore makes use of people. Dumbledore uses a carrot and Voldemort uses a stick. We have been allowed on several occasions to feel Dumbledore's power when he is angry, and when Harry presses him, he can be as snarky as Snape, and as arrogant. Other times, he is so sweet, ie "I'm with you". Who is the real Dumbledore? I think, realistically speaking, "good" must be as determined and persistent as "evil" and as willing to do what must be done to further the cause. We have been assured in the book that Dumbledore is too "noble" to stoop to the same kinds of magic as Voldemort. To me, Dumbledore, at 150 years, has learned many hard lessons. He has chosen to support the WW rather than himself, he has had a lengthy education, much life experience and has gained much wisdom through his life. He is a warrior, rather than a political entity, and is more a general and strategist than researcher. He has a purpose, which is to protect the WW and make it a safe and secure way of life. Voldemort, on the other hand, does not have the experience of Dumbledore, the empathy, the manipulative ability, or any particular purpose other than destruction. He desires power as an end in itself without any defining goal in having it. While we are expected to see Dumbledore as good, I think we are also meant to see him as the person who has put Harry on a path to Dumbledore's goal. He left him at Dursley's, he gave him an invisibility cloak, he was not around in PS/SS or Cos to support Harry until after it was all over, his only role in PoA was to set Harry and Hermione a life threatening task to spring Sirius. I also believe that there would have been something Dumbledore could have done to remove Harry from the Triwaizard Tournament but chose instead to leave him stuck out there as bait. In OotP, he chose to avoid Harry, keep Harry in the dark, go missing again until the last minute, leave him in Snape's and Umbridge's gentle hands, and see how it all shook out. He doesn't tell anybody the whole of what is going on, is not emotionally close to anyone and considers death to perhaps be an inconvenience of timing at this stage of his life. I suspect he thinks that way of the lives and deaths of his fellow Order members. They are all chess pieces. I really feel as though Snape, Trlawney, and Harry have all been treated like chess pieces all through the books and Snape just got the worst screwing of his life. With regard to the cave speeches, I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore has ever done anything evil, and at 150 years he has learned to live with past mistakes and has already forgiven himself. To me, it really sounds like Snape, who was sincerely remorseful, "didn't want to do it any more", and had a lot more to be sorry as Hell for. Just my opinion of course. Thanks for an interesting and civil discussion. KJ From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 23:18:14 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:18:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137554 > > Not at all! Many Snape-Evil people (I don't include myself with them, > by the way, since I think Snape has definite Good AND definite Evil in > his character) point out that the thing that is worse than death is > having your soul ripped into shreds by murder, thus condemning > yourself to a nightmare partial existance. And why would Dumbledore, > the epitome of goodness, ask someone to do that to themselves? > > Lupinlore I'm curious Lupinlore, what good do you think is actually in Snape? everything he does in the books can easily be justified through evil self interest, imo. phoenixgod2000 From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 13 23:55:36 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:55:36 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > KJ wrote: > I don't believe that Dumbledore has ever in his life done anything > that would make these memories his and it would certainly > explain why Dumbledore knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where > Snape's loyalties lay. > vmonte: > I hope your right, but I was just thinking that Dumbledore's words > could be JKR's way of giving DD his last confession. Dumbledore > has been set-up by JKR to be almost Saint-like from the first > book. But is he? We are so busy considering everyone > else's motives that we never even look into Dumbledore's role in > all this. Where did he come from, and what is his stake in all > this? Was he given another chance by someone? Is that why he gives > everyone else second chances? Was his soul saved? Is part of his > penance that he has to convert others? Does Dumbledore represent > St. Paul? Jen: I'm going to start at the potion and work backward. Thinking about the way Voldemort's mind works, what kind of potion would he make? One suggestion from Merrylinks I *really* liked, but couldn't quite make fit in my own mind, was that Voldemort would make a potion that forces a person to see his/her own death. That would be LV's idea of the worst nightmare! But DD doesn't fear death and if he was seeing his own death, he would have seen clues about the experience on the Astronomy Tower. I don't believe that happened. So back to the potion, if it's not facing death, Voldemort's next favorite would be experiencing fear. But not just feeling great fear, the person would have to be defenseless, possibly in pain and unable to perform any magic. I do think Dumbledore's episode in the cave, and later on the Astonomy Tower, must be the boggart experience JKR mentioned in the TLC/Mugglenet interviews: ES: "What would Dumbledore's boggart be?" JKR: "I can't answer that either, but for theories you should read six again. There you go." We know from Lupin in POA a boggart will "become whatever each of us most fears." So Dumbledore wouldn't be seeing memories so much as his greatest fear after drinking the potion. My guess to his greatest fear is the fact that he's spent his life defending and safeguarding many people and creatures in the WW. People depend on him, go to him in emergenices, expect he will have the right answers. And most times he does. But what a huge burden to carry! So many people depending on him, and what if he lets them down, makes one of his 'correpsondingly huge mistakes'? One that leads to the torture and death of his students, say. Basically what we saw on the Astronomy Tower was very similar to what Dumbledore experienced in the cave (without the same particulars of course). He's weak, defenseless, hears his students are dying. He can do nothing to stop the DE's himself. If Fenrir is let loose on the student body, or the DE's raid the castle and kill the weaker students, there's nothing Dumbledore can do. And it was *his* mistake in part that allowed the DE's to get into Hogwarts that night. He didn't listen to Harry before they went to the cave, didn't suspect Draco of planning anything more than trying to kill him. I think we saw his greatest fear being played out there, and we saw Dumbledore react as he did in the cave--'don't hurt them, kill me instead.' Jen From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 14 00:11:45 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:11:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FE8C41.1020605@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137556 dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > Erm... Lupinlore's scenarios may be less logical for you, to each > their own of course, but to me they make much MORE sense and much > more consistent with internal logic of Potterverse ( just my > opinion of course) than Dumbledore asking Snape in advance to kill > him, while increasing Hary's hatred of Snape many times more and > expecting Harry to trust Snape to help him save the day when moment > comes) > > The main reason of course would be as others stated that it is > Harry's story and he is supposed to play the main role at the end, > not Superspy saving the day. > > Don't get me wrong, I CAN see scenarios of Snape being good , but > making a horrible choice to kill DD, because Snape thinks he can > help a good guys this way, or saving Draco, etc( Severely Siguine's > essay being the best example), BUT in all those scenarious I don't > see Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him ( at least not in advance). > > Whatever was in Snape head at the Tower, I don't see JKR let him get > away with murder, I just don't. > > As always, I am prepared to eat a nice crow. :-) Alla Kathy writes: I agree to some extent, but throught the books a theme of self-sacrifice has been consistent. Lily sacrificing her life for Harry, Ron being willing to sacrifice his to help Harry protect the stone, Harry risking his life to return Cedric's body. If Dumbledore has been watching Voldemort, figuring out what he's doing and getting his ducks in order for twenty years, give or take, he has made some fairly definite plans. Trelawny has been hidden at Hogwarts for sixteen years, and Snape for fifteen years. Harry has been stashed at Dursleys where he can keep an eye on him. Dumbledore has been hunting horcruxes for years, he just didn't know for sure how many to hunt. Considering his age, Dumbledore must have known that he could die at any time. He must have made plans for that as well. If as some posters suspect, he was slowly dying from the hexes protecting the ring, he would already have made plans. He undoubtedly knew the potion would kill him if he drank it. He checked it out, he tried to avoid it, but when it came down to it he drank it anyway. He may have thought that he would have time to explain a few more things to Harry in the time he had left, but Draco screwed it up. I think that Dumbledore gave Snape instructions to use his death to gain more influence with the Death Eaters, which is not the same thing as orders or plans to have Snape kill him. When Snape arrived on the tower, if legilimency was involved, it would have been Dumbledore saying "I'm dying, finish it, do as I asked" Any other prior instructions about what was expected of Snape once he was in a position of trust with Voldemort, we do not know. Dumbledore knows people. He knew Voldemort was worth watching when he was eleven years old. I think we are shown this perception he has of wrongness to show us that he is not wrong about Snape. We are perhaps not being asked to believe that Snape is "good." Perhaps his final role is not what we would call "good." No other character in the books could have killed Dumbledore, even under orders. Perhaps at the end of the seventh book, Harry, having killed Voldemort, feels the portion of Voldemort's soul stir to life in him. I believe that Harry would sacrifice his own life to destroy Voldemort. No other character in the book could be trusted to take Harry's life, if necessary, even under orders. Perhaps Snape's only redemption is to do evil in the cause of the right. Harry would end up a dead hero, and Snape would end up a dead villain, and Voldemort would end up the lord who never returned. KJ Throwing out an off-the-wall theory From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 00:18:10 2005 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 00:18:10 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137557 > Jen: I'm going to start at the potion and work backward. Thinking > about the way Voldemort's mind works, what kind of potion would he > make? One suggestion from Merrylinks I *really* liked, but couldn't > quite make fit in my own mind, was that Voldemort would make a > potion that forces a person to see his/her own death. That would be > LV's idea of the worst nightmare! But DD doesn't fear death < snip> if it's not facing death, Voldemort's next > favorite would be experiencing fear. But not just feeling great > fear, the person would have to be defenseless, possibly in pain and > unable to perform any magic. > >snip > My guess to his greatest fear is the fact that he's spent his life > defending and safeguarding many people and creatures in the WW. > People depend on him, go to him in emergenices, expect he will have > the right answers. And most times he does. But what a huge burden to > carry! So many people depending on him, and what if he lets them > down, makes one of his 'correpsondingly huge mistakes'? < snip. I think we saw his greatest fear being played out there, and we > saw Dumbledore react as he did in the cave--'don't hurt them, kill > me instead.' > > Jen This is a good thread and I like Jen's theory that DD is facing his greatest fear. However, she assumes that the potion DD drinks was left there by Voldemort. However, the horcrux has been stolen and it's my hunch that the potion has been tampered with as well. If RAB could take that horcrux, why couldn't he/she leave a potion meant for Voldemort? If Voldemort visits his horcruxes, he does so alone; he would never trust anyone with this secret. So, he has defenses against his own potion but not against RAB's. I think RAB is trying to make Voldemort feel fear, grief, horror and guilt--as RAB felt himself when forced to do evil as a Death Eater. I think that is the potion DD drank. Marmelade Mom From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Sun Aug 14 00:41:03 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 00:41:03 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137558 Responding to Lupinlore & Alla > Alla: > > Erm... Lupinlore's scenarios may be less logical for you, to each > their own of course, but to me they make much MORE sense and much > more consistent with internal logic of Potterverse ( just my > opinion of course) than Dumbledore asking Snape in advance to kill > him, while increasing Hary's hatred of Snape many times more and > expecting Harry to trust Snape to help him save the day when moment > comes) > > > YES, there are things worse than Death, but could you or anybody > else point to me to ANY moment in Potterverse, which indicates that > there are things worse than MURDER? > OK so our biggest difference in opinion stems from; My POV - DD could not possibly be so wrong about Snape Your POV - DD wouldn't ask Snape to Murder him I will try and tackle your query. It seems in that chapter that DD can barely keep himself upright. One of the DE's even suggests he is 'not long for this world'. DD was dying at that precise moment. The 'gaze' that Snape and DD exchange before the AK, is simply DD telling Snape to do it. Since the first curse has not healed, it is possible that this was premeditated since DD may have been dying (albeit at a slower rate) from the first curse!! Brothergib From martyb1130 at aol.com Sat Aug 13 22:57:24 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:57:24 EDT Subject: Is Percy under the Imperious Curse? Message-ID: <156.56ebf1d1.302fd4d4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137559 I was wondering today if Percy has been acting under the Imperious curse all along. It is my belief that Scabbers ( Peter Pettigrew) had put him under the curse and that is why he has distanced himself from the rest of his family. When Percy was working for Barty Crouch it was Pettigrew who knew what was going on and Pettigrew who probably got Percy the promotion. Pettigrew has been controlling Percy for a couple of years now! What a turnout this would be. Brodeur. From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 01:04:13 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 02:04:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Percy under the Imperious Curse? References: <156.56ebf1d1.302fd4d4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137560 I'm not convinced that WORMTAIL could have done that spell, particularly over such a long time, but I see no reason why VOLDEMORT could not have done so right after the Torlement. Percy get's jumped by Malfoy Snr and placed under the curse, perhaps after becoming Fudge's assistant. (Did LM nominate him for the role?) Perhaps, for a real-heart twister, Percy knows what's happening to him and chose to leave his family because if he stayed near them he would hurt them. Chris Alternate History: http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: martyb1130 at aol.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Percy under the Imperious Curse? I was wondering today if Percy has been acting under the Imperious curse all along. It is my belief that Scabbers ( Peter Pettigrew) had put him under the curse and that is why he has distanced himself from the rest of his family. When Percy was working for Barty Crouch it was Pettigrew who knew what was going on and Pettigrew who probably got Percy the promotion. Pettigrew has been controlling Percy for a couple of years now! What a turnout this would be. Brodeur. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 01:41:36 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:41:36 -0000 Subject: Snape, DD, and Book 7 - Kreacher in the cave! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137561 > Rachel: > Anyway, it would be cool if Kreacher was the one to drink the > poison. But, wouldn't his mistress still have been in charge of > him? Are we assuming that Mrs. Black died before Regulus joined the > DE? Sirius says, "My parents thought he was a right little hero for > joining up at first." Or something similar...I'm paraphrasing. It > cannot be that Mrs. Black would have been trying to defeat LV, can > it??? Valky: I think you answer your own question here. Regulus was dearly loved by his Ol' Mum it seems, and seemingly, by the way Sirius speaks about him, a good deal better treated than Sirius was. I see what your getting at when you say that Mrs Black probably wouldn't give direct orders to Kreacher to drink the potion and betray Voldemort. But she most certainly could have given direct orders to Kreacher to do *anything and everything* to serve Regulus in his work as a DE. Kreacher could well have been all kinds of help to Reggie while he was out doing evil, providing him alibis, helping him overpower opponents by smashing pudding over their heads (hehe). The sorts of things that Winky and Dobby were inclined to do for the ones that they served. It could very well be, that this was just *one more* mission for Kreacher to help with, no extraordinary deal from the outset "come along and help me with this Kreacher" sort of thing, and nobody asks questions because this is the normal conducting of business in the Black Household. Down thread somewhere someone also pointed out Kreachers determination to save the objects in the Black Household from being tossed. In my curiousity I reread this chapter of OOtP, and the passage about Kreachers Bedroom. Heres what I noticed. Early on in the cleaning Sirius calls Kreacher out on his lingering around to rescue the Blacks Possessions. Now here, Sirius seems to *know* that Kreacher is very concerned about something specific. With a little pressing Kreacher confesses that he is there to protect the Tapestry. But the Tapestry couldn't be removed. By the time they'd completed the room with the Locket in it only the Tapestry and the writing desk with the Boggart in it remained. Now doesn't *that* smell very fishy! Earlier, there is another thing that interested me. Hermione pleads with Sirius about Kreacher, saying "He's not right in the head..." and "I don't think he realises we can hear him." To which Sirius responds that Kreacher has been alone too long taking mad orders from the portrait. Or IOW he doesn't really know why Kreacher is barmy, he's just guessing. He does add that Kreacher was always "a foul little...". Clearly Kreacher *wasn't always* barmy and Sirius seems to think it's happened *since* he went to Azkaban, *some fifteen years previously*. hmmmm... ;D Now what's interesting about this is the fact that Kreachers problem is talking on and on to himself as though something in his own mind is torturing him. And we've seen *that* somewhere else I think. Agreed? Finally there was one more thing that I noticed, later in the scene in Kreachers bedroom. Hary makes the decided point that House Elves can *leave* the house if they really want to, and later Dumbledore also says that Kreacher took Sirius order to get out quite literally, and of course Winky was able to escort Barty JR under Bart SR's orders. Together it's a fit, under the right orders and with enough will, a House Elf can go out from the house he is tied to. If Mrs Black instilled enough allegiance in Kreacher to the Dark Lord, and then ordered him to *help* Regulus in his DE activities *whatever they are*, then the will and the orders are covered completely, Kreacher could do it, all Regulus had to say was that he was doing it *for* Voldemort, rather than against. So in summation there is some neat canon supporting the notion that Kreacher was given custody of the Locket by Regulus, after they both went to the cave and retreived it, and that Kreacher did try to protect and keep the Locket (Regulus' secret) during OOtP. He quite possibly, still does. Valky From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 02:12:52 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 02:12:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's 8th Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137562 Greg: > All that being said, what't to keep Voldemort from creating an > additional Horcrux in order to keep it at the magically strong number > 7. Amelia Bones was a very powerful witch that Dumbledore was upset > about losing. Why couldn't Voldemort have used this murder to get his > number of Horcruxes back up to the magically strong number of 7? And he could probably make it at any time, seeing as how they don't have to be done immediately after the killings. (He had already killed to get the gaunt ring and then went back to Hogwarts before he even asked Slughorn about them). So if 7 is the key, why would he not grab something around him now and make one out of any murder he's performed in the past ... unless maybe 7 is so key that to split your soul by more than 7 really messes you up somehow. So possibly LV knows that he has one killing in reserve now that the diary has been destroyed ... and he doesn't seem eager to use it on people like Cedric, though he would have hit Dumbledore with it if he could. I'm sure he wouldn't mind hitting the magic number on that note. That's mostly wild speculation on my part I admit. Redeyedwings. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 02:29:09 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 02:29:09 -0000 Subject: If Snape told DD about the UV, how would DD have responded? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137563 First, let me state what I think happened in "Spinner's End," a chapter that is very much open to interpretation. I think that Snape did not anticipate the Black sisters' visit, that LV had not told him the plan to kill Dumbledore (if LV trusts Snape, why have Wormtail spying on him?), and that at first he is bluffing. His first goal is to allay Bellatrix's suspicions by telling her essentially what he told Voldemort, with some lies relating to Sirius Black and Emmeline Vance thrown in for good measure once he has determined that Bellatirx is not in a position to verify his story. Then he turns to Narcissa, still bluffing at first but then using Legilimency on her to find out Draco's mission. At this point he turns to the window, away from the women, to regain his self-control. When Narcissa asks him to help and protect Draco. This, naturally, is what he already intends to do. Draco is a student in his House and the son of his friend. Even when Narcissa asks him to take an Unbreakable Vow to help and protect Draco, Snape is not really worried. He can't say no, of course, without betraying his loyalty to Dumbledore and being murdered by two angry women, but saying yes is only swearing to do what he already intends to do ("help" being subject to interpretation and not necessarily meaning what Narcissa intends it to mean). It seems unlikely that he will be placed in a position where he'll be forced to break the vow. If it's a choice between saving Draco and dying, he will of course save Draco. It's only when Narcissa throws in the unanticipated third provision, to finish the task for Draco if Draco fails, that Snape sees his danger and his dilemma. If I'm right and he used Legilimency on Narcissa, he knows at this point that it could come down to his life or Dumbledore's. His only hope is that Draco's cowardice and incompetence will prevent him from getting anywhere near Dumbledore. We know from his interview with Draco that he doesn't know the plan about getting Death Eaters into the school. He knows only what Narcissa knows--that Draco is somehow supposed to kill Dumbledore. Now comes the part where we know next to nothing. We don't know whether he told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow (I think he did, given DD's lack of surprise when Harry tells him about the overheard conversation). It's possible that he only told him about the first two provisions. Even so, DD knows that Draco is trying to kill him and if he also knows about the Unbreakable Vow, he must know that if the protections on the school fail and Draco succeeds in getting Death Eaters into the school (the only way he would dare to confront DD), Snape may be faced with a terrible choice: die fighting on DD's side or protect and "help" Draco. If "help" Draco means kill Dumbledore, then the choice will be between letting Draco die and dying himself or killing Dumbledore. I think both DD and Snape trust in the protections that DD has placed in the school and neither thinks that matters will reach this point. And yet the vow is dangerous, and in combination with the curse on the DADA position, both DD and Snape must feel a sense of entrapment and impending doom. Sorry. More than I wanted to say on this point. The question I wanted to pose is this: [Suppose that Snape is in fact loyal to Dumbledore, that he realizes he has been trapped by a combination of Voldemort's malice and his own pride and folly (agreeing to take the vow and thinking he can slither out of it through cleverness; not anticipating the terrible third clause.) Suppose that he goes to Dumbledore and says something like, "Headmaster, forgive me. I've done a stupid and terrible thing." And then he tells the story, the true story with the complete vow and what he saw in Narcissa's mind. What, based on our canonical knowledge of Dumbledore, which we know includes total faith in Snape, would Dumbledore have said to him?] Please don't answer this post if you think Snape would not have confessed to Dumbledore. That's another thread altogether (the "Snape is Evil, get over it" thread). Quote my arguments in the first part of the post and move them there is you want to tear them apart, but please don't ruin this thread by doing that here. And please don't answer if you think Dumbledore escaped as a bumblebee or his death was faked in some other way. That, too, is for another thread. Answer only if you think that Snape really, against his own will, killed Dumbledore (with or without a real AK), that his choices were to keep his vow, killing Dumbledore and saving Draco, or to die accomplishing nothing because both Draco and Dumbledore would have been murdered by the DEs if he had broken his vow. And answer only if you think Snape either did confess or may have confessed the whole truth. I only want to know what a good and wise Dumbledore might have said to a troubled follower who has quite possibly just doomed them both by making a vow he really had no choice but to make. Please don't turn this thread in another direction by responding only to some other part of the post. (It's okay to respond to the first part, too, but it's the portion in square brackets that I want to see answers to.) Carol, for whom Snape is as much a tragic figure as Dumbledore From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 03:11:51 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:11:51 -0000 Subject: Why did DD freeze Harry? (Was: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137564 Matt wrote: > 1) I agree that it is difficult to understand why Dumbledore would > have positioned Harry to watch this scene. I've chronicled in another post (#136067) a number of possible reasons, ranging from simple lack of a better alternative, to the need for Harry to see Draco's change of heart, to a desire to harden Harry for the final pursuit of Voldemort. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136067 Carol responds: I think you're trying to make matters too complicated by assuming that DD wanted Harry as a witness. I think it's much simpler. He knew the Death Eaters were coming. He also wanted time to talk to Draco before they came. Impetuous, angry, heroic Harry would have thrown off his invisibility cloak and interfered, trying to fight Draco and save DD. In doing so, he would have revealed himself to the Death Eaters, who would either have captured him or killed him. DD knew that Harry couldn't save him, and that if he didn't try to fight Draco, he would try to fight Snape when he came. And so, regardless of how things fell out with Snape and the Unbreakable Vow, Dumbledore wanted Harry safe. And the only way to insure that was to silence and immobilize him. That Harry witnessed the events will surely prove to be important, especially if the spell Snape cast was not a real AK. But I very much doubt that Dumbledore would have used his last wand flick to immobilize Harry, putting himself at the mercy of a budding Death Eater who immediately disarms him, *only* to have Harry as a witness to his then-inevitable death. (Poison or no poison, the DEs, including Fenrir Grayback, would have killed DD if Draco or Snape didn't.) Harry's life had to be saved, and immobilizing him was the only way to do it. Carol From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 14 03:28:25 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Percy under the Imperious Curse? In-Reply-To: <156.56ebf1d1.302fd4d4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050814032825.56272.qmail@web53314.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137565 martyb1130 at aol.com wrote: I was wondering today if Percy has been acting under the Imperious curse all along. It is my belief that Scabbers ( Peter Pettigrew) had put him under the curse and that is why he has distanced himself from the rest of his family. When Percy was working for Barty Crouch it was Pettigrew who knew what was going on and Pettigrew who probably got Percy the promotion. Pettigrew has been controlling Percy for a couple of years now! What a turnout this would be. Brodeur. Luckdragon: J K Rowling answered this question on her site saying that he was acting of his own accord. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 03:30:32 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:30:32 -0000 Subject: If Snape told DD about the UV, how would DD have responded? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137566 Carol wrote: > The question I wanted to pose is this: > > > [Suppose that Snape is in fact loyal to Dumbledore, that he realizes > he has been trapped by a combination of Voldemort's malice and his > own pride and folly (agreeing to take the vow and thinking he can > slither out of it through cleverness; not anticipating the terrible > third clause.) > Suppose that he goes to Dumbledore and says something like, > "Headmaster, forgive me. I've done a stupid and terrible thing." And > then he tells the story, the true story with the complete vow and > what he saw in Narcissa's mind. > > What, based on our canonical knowledge of Dumbledore, which we know > includes total faith in Snape, would Dumbledore have said to him?] > Valky: I like this question Carol. Personally, I think my canonical Dumbledore interpretation ain't half bad (if I do say so myself ;D) so I'm going to have a go. But with a little twist. I am going to, for the sake of trying very hard to stick to my own canon interpretations, *not* suppose that Snape told the *whole* truth. I am going to suppose that Snape, as I see him in Canon will be telling a story, similar to the story that I believe he tells Harry about James and similar to the way he conducts his lessons. Snape in my hypothesis is going to make quite a one-eyed confession to Dumbledore about what he has done at Spinners End. And it will go something like this. ** SS: I have been visited by the Black sisters over the summer, Dumbledore. And I have discovered from them that Voldemort has concieved a plan for Hogwarts, which will be carried out by Draco this year. DD: I see Severus, thankyou for passing this information to me. You will understand that I must ask you to be watchful of Draco through the school year then, uncover the details of his mission, and be sure to go lightly. Lord Voldemort will not be merciful to Draco if our interference causes too much distraction for him. SS: There is more Head Master, and you must listen. DD: Yes Severus, then lets hear it. SS: I have already uncovered some of those details, Dumbledore. Drco's mission is very dangerous, and his mother and Lucius are being held to a ransom reliant upon his success in it. DD: Of course Severus, as much as this could logically have been deduced, Draco is very young and vulnerable and it is certain that Voldemort has managed to gain command of the boy through some form of coercion. This is not all you have to share with me now is it. SS: No Headmaster, it is not. I must tell you I believe that Draco has been ordered to kill someone very important. In Narcissa's mind I saw thoughts of Draco in grave danger, mortal combat.. DD: Ah yes, Severus. But I must ask why this disturbs you so, you have my permission.. nay, my order to protect Draco you must be aware of this. Who do you think might be the target of Draco then? SS: I do not know. DD: Well Severus, you must think hard about that. Consider Lord Voldemort, his methods and his mind. It is patently obvious who Voldemort would send a child to kill. SS: Severus looks confused - No headmaster, it is not Harry Potter the Dark Lord wishes to..... DD: Think harder Severus, you are missing the point. A child a helpless child, who is most vulnerable? Severus' face blanches. DD: Now Severus, you see I must keep my distance from Draco. Severus gulps and nods. Dumbledore looks deeply into Snapes shadowy eyes. Severus? SS: Yes Headmaster, I will do as you have asked. And Severus white face turns slightly green and then yellow. He feigns indifference but it is too late Dumbledore has read the signs. DD: What you have done, Severus, may be a truly terrible thing. But you must know Severus, that we are closer now that ever before to a victory over the evil in our world. I am as much to blame as you, as I have given you the terribly trying duty of spying for me. We will all make sacrifices for this war, and I am aware of the great burden I have placed on your shoulders my dear Severus. I do not deny the heavy fate I have laid for myself, and neither should you deny me of it. Carry out your duty as we have always planned it Severus, I will yeild to my lot. SS: Headmaster, this is folly. You do not understand what you ask of me. DD: I believe Severus, that I do understand, somewhat better than you do. SS: You do not, Dumbledore. Sevvie is close to tears.. You do not see this clearer than I. He turns away. ** So as you can see, in my interpretation Dumbledore does not need an actual confession of the UV to know that Snape has locked himself into a very grave future. But in true DD style, Dumbledore quickly accepts his own blame in the matter, and is more concerned about helping Sevvie come to terms with his choice than he is about the danger to himself. I believe that over the course of the year, Dumbledore slowly, as ever, put together the clues to the nature of Snapes dilemma. So that by the time he was defenseless in the Astronomy Tower it all became patently clear to him how exactly the clues fitted together. The pleading voice from Dumbledore, I think could be a Dumbledore saying to Snape "Please tell me that you didn't lock *yourself* into this god awful mess." And of course Snape in return tells DD, "Yes Headmaster I did. And now I'm broke for ideas, theres nothing left." DD of course replies, to Snape "I am sorry that I have laid this burden on you, Severus, but you know what my choice is. Take care of Harry for me..." And that is what *I* think DD said. Valky From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 03:52:23 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:52:23 -0000 Subject: The Nature of Lily's sacrifice - Was:Last Judgement Love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137567 >Saraquel wrote: >If the parallels to JKR's faith are in play here (I believe she >said that no-one after reading the end of the series could be in >any doubt about her faith.) >Then Lily's choice could > have paralleled Christ's choice. I say that with the greatest > caution, as I in no way wish to offend anyone. The last thing that > I wish to imply is that Lily is Christ in some way, especially > as I do not adhere to Christianity or any other religion, but > have great respect for all faiths. But perhaps it parallels it in > some way. That Lily's choice, whatever it was, was a redemptive > choice. It was a choice which offered hope to everyone. Geoff wrote: >Speaking as an evangelical Christian, I see nothing to make me take >offence to your comments. Saraquel: Thank you for responding to my concerns Geoff. Now that I know you at least have not found my comments offensive in any way, I feel somewhat freer to delve a little deeper into this line of thinking. I am aware that discussion of the subject of religion is not allowed on this list, but find myself in the position of needing to reference it in order to speculate on the meaning of Lily's sacrifice, in the same way that people have been discussing the meaning of the Tarot or Egyptian mythology. Geoff wrote: >I am reminded of one of Christ's comments >which I feel is germane to this discussion: >"Greater love has no-one than this, that he lays down his life for >his friends" (New Testament John 15:13) Saraquel: That particular verse has always moved me greatly, but I think JKR is meaning something even deeper than this by Lily's sacrifice. Here is the part of the Mugglenet/LC interview that makes me think that: >JKR: But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this >instance, higher because she could have saved herself. >MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in >front of Harry? >JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it >never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, >therefore, knew that could happen. >MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave >someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] - >JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular >way. To me this implies that there is something more in the mix than Lily just laying down her life for Harry when she had the choice not to. If she just chose to die for her son, then I feel that she would have fulfilled the meaning of NT John 15:13 and the conditions set out in MA's question that begins "So no one ?Voldemort ." Although I am not a Christian, I have studied world religions and my understanding of Christian theology around Christ's death is that it enabled everyone to surmount the curse of original sin and attain forgiveness and redemption. Just to clarify for those unfamiliar with this. Original sin was brought into the world in the Garden of Eden, when the serpent tempts Eve with an apple from the tree of Knowledge and she eats it. >From that moment on, Adam and Eve (the first and only, I think, woman and man on earth at the time) and all their descendants are divorced from God. This is the curse of original sin which everyone has inherited. God then sent his son, Christ, in the form of Jesus, to redeem the world through an act of love. When Jesus sacrifices himself on the cross, he does this in the name of everyone's sin (Hence the saying, `Jesus died for me'). This builds a bridge between women/men and God again, and allows them, through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice (i.e. becoming a Christian), to be absolved from original sin and attain divine love and redemption. I do hope that I have done enough justice, in this simple explanation, to this very complex and subtle theology. I am also aware that different Christian denominations have differing views as to exactly how one gains salvation through acceptance of Christ's death. Another, for me, relevant piece of the Christian story here, is Christ's experience in the wilderness, where he is tempted by Satan, the devil, and offered Power and Dominion over the world, but he refuses. Ok, if we now go back to Lily's sacrifice with these two pieces of background, what can we surmise? To me it seems obvious that Voldemort is symbolic of Satan for these reasons. 1) His stated belief that there is no good or evil but only power. 2) His ruthless pursuit of world domination. 3) His rejection of death. The devil's ambition is to have power and dominion over this world for ever, not, to be released from it and go to heaven. 4) His snake-like physical appearance (the snake in the Garden of Eden). So what is the choice that Voldemort offers Lily? I think, in some way he offers her immortality in this world and what he sees as everlasting Power and Dominion over the this world, which parallels the choice of Christ in the wilderness. Exactly what form this takes, I'm not sure, but I would like to reference Valky's idea here, which I thought was a brilliant deduction and have been storing away for future use. It was made in the context of Living Horcruxes, Voldemort marking Harry as his equal and what happened with the failed AK and very much explores what I am exploring here, but from a different starting point. I would *highly recommend* that you read the whole post if you are interested enough in this theme, to get this far into my post. In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134566 Valky wrote: >So wobbling around on these premises somewhere is an ugly disturbing >hypothesis..Voldie went to Godrics Hollow to kill Harry and use the >event to make Lily a living, Horcrux, equal she-mate... Like >Nagini.. > >Make her an offer she can't refuse.. and she'll step aside.. >perhaps. > >Ok, when you're finished throwing up.. > >I'll continue. > >Lily sacrificed herself for Harry and left a lingering protection >thereby. Harry's blood connection to Lily extended the protection to >him. When Voldemort took Harry's blood he thought he was actually, >bypassing the protection left by Lily's sacrifice, but DD thought >otherwise. > >So lets assume that Voldie waltzed into GH and offered Lily the >world at her feet, the sharing of equal power with the ruler of the >world,the path to her own immortality etc etc. And she said "No >thanks I'll keep my baby boy instead." What happened then? Saraquel: I think that this may be a distinct possibility, that Voldemort offered to make Lily into a Horcrux and offered her immortality to boot. But Voldemort offered it to her on the basis of murdering her son. This really would parallel Jesus' temptation on the wilderness, if I remember rightly, it was something along the lines of, Give up God and I will give you the world. I don't think that Lily would have been at all tempted by the power and dominion stuff and particularly on the basis of giving up the love of her son, in order that Voldemort could murder him. Now why would Voldemort choose Lily? Especially as she is muggle born. I think that part of the reason for Voldemort's choice is tied up with Snape somehow. Quite how I don't know, but I might speculate on that in a later post. There is also Hagrid's comment about Lily and James in PS p45 "Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never tried to get `em on his side before.." which indicates to me that Voldemort knew about them and that they had/did something that was of particular interest to Voldemort. Did they work in the Department of Mysteries with the Room of Love? I can imagine that Voldemort is very interested in the *Power* in that room. But I digress Another reason why I think Voldemort might have deliberately chosen a muggle born, is his desire for *total* world domination ? both wizard and muggle. Is this why JKR has deliberately included the muggle world in the story, via the Prime Minister scene? Horcrux! Lily would symbolise his domination over the muggle world as well. Voldemort is so convinced that Power is the only thing that matters, that he would not be able to conceive that Lily might turn him down. I can see that he would have used his very charming and persuasive self, to really make it seem the right option to take. But as we know, whatever it was that Voldemort offered Lily, she turned him down. So, finally, where does that leave us: Voldemort threatens to kill Harry. The prophecy has indicated that there is a possibility that someone can defeat Voldemort. But at this point, I think, the power to do it, referred to in the prophecy does not exist. IMO, this is why, JKR suggests that there might be more than one child it refers to. It is Voldemort, making the *choice* to make a Lily!Horcrux and kill Harry that actually creates this power. It was Satan's choice to tempt Eve that necessitated God to send his redeeming power in the form of Jesus. When Lily decides to sacrifice herself, paralleling Jesus' sacrifice, then the ancient magic of the power of love enters into the equation. Lily dies ? Jesus dies ? but what is left is a power that now runs in Harry's blood and in his body, which is the special power referred to in the prophecy. Lily's sacrifice did not in itself redeem the world from Voldemort, just as Jesus' sacrifice did not cleanse the world of sin. But through her sacrifice, she bequeathed the *power* to be redeemed, as Jesus did. It is the special thing that is in Harry's *more valuable* blood which Harry can use, as long as he makes the right choices, to conquer Voldemort. Just as it is the special thing in the body and blood of Christ in the Communion/mass which empowers Christians to live their lives in such a way as to be redeemed. There is a thread that I have had at the back of my mind for some time now about Voldemort's search for an immortal body, which I think is an essential ingredient in this mix - but it still needs more though and I'm not going there now. There is part of me that thinks, now I've got this far, that I have said nothing new, well nothing that Valky has not already said. If so, I'm sorry it's been such a long haul to get nowhere much :-) However, I know it has helped *me* to understand better the possible nature of Lily's sacrifice. I think there is more that can be deduced from thinking on this theme, that might well take us further to solving what happened when Voldemort cast the fateful AK and what happens in the final showdown. But that's either for another post of mine, or another post from anyone who is following this theme. Please, please, do add your thoughts to cauldron. Saraquel From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Aug 14 04:16:27 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 04:16:27 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Serius Black (was Re: DD is Dead/Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137569 > > Finwitch: > > Well, I thought it was made obvious in the chapter Spinner's End - > that, two hours after other DEs arrived (and Harry left) the > graveyard (end of GoF) he did make appearance to Voldemort. As we all > noticed, Wormtail was nowhere to be seen in OOP - and here, 2nd > chapter of HBP we learn where he had been... Potioncat: I'm not sure that just because Pettigrew was "assisting" Snape over the summer between OoP and HBP, that it means he was living at Spinner's End as Snape's servant ever since GoF. To be honest, I don't want to know what Snape's DE job was nor what Pettigrew was suppose to be doing. Although it's obvious Snape uses him for menial labor, and Pettigrew spies on Snape. However, DD and the Order knew Pettigrew was alive and working for LV. Do you think DD wanted Pettigrew turned in? For Snape to turn him in, he would have had to blow his cover. DD told Harry he would be glad he spared PP, so I think DD wants PP in LV's camp.I'm reasonably certain Snape does not want Pettigrew at Spinner's End. What I'd like to know, is how it was that Black was cleared and his will was read within weeks of his death? What evidence was presented that couldn't have been presented before? From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 05:12:16 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 05:12:16 -0000 Subject: Why did DD freeze Harry? (Was: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137570 I think Dumbledore intended to freeze Harry and disarm Draco and normally he would have had no difficulty doing so but he was weaker than he realized. Draco got the better of him. Eggplant From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 05:59:16 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 05:59:16 -0000 Subject: Themes in the HP series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137571 Thanks for your magnificent post Cheryl, in bringing together so many threads which are being explored in the theme which started with Last Judgement Love. I also found Dan's post, which prompted your reply, an excellent post. I agree that since HBP, the light shed on the themes of the books becomes much less secular, and personally, as someone who is contributing to the Last Judgement Love theme and a non-Christian, I am finding myself more and more impressed by JK Rowling's skill in bringing to life a story which expresses her obviously deep felt beliefs, without it being overtly evangelical. I do think that the books can still be read as a straighforward secular story, although, that opinion might change with book 7. What also impresses me is her courage in going against the flow, by insisting that Love is powerful enough to conquer evil. That we are having the debate we are about the nature of the Love which DD says Harry possesses, is an indicaton that our society (to make a sweeping geralisation here) has lost touch with a notion of Love which has *real power* within it. Now, an invitation to Dan, to get his feet wet in the waters of the current debate and exercise his obviously excellent powers of deduction and reasoning! I for one, would really like to read your thoughts. Saraquel From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 14 06:20:21 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:20:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] If Snape told DD about the UV, how would DD have responded? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FEE2A5.3050700@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137572 justcarol67 wrote: > Suppose that he goes to Dumbledore and says something like, > "Headmaster, forgive me. I've done a stupid and terrible thing." And > then he tells the story, the true story with the complete vow and what > he saw in Narcissa's mind. > > What, based on our canonical knowledge of Dumbledore, which we know > includes total faith in Snape, would Dumbledore have said to him?] > And answer only if you think Snape either did confess or may have > confessed the whole truth. I only want to know what a good and wise > Dumbledore might have said to a troubled follower who has quite > possibly just doomed them both by making a vow he really had no choice > but to make. > Carol, for whom Snape is as much a tragic figure as Dumbledore Kathy writes: In reading Chapter 2, I was more surprised to see that Narcissa knew the plan, and I assumed that Snape also knew the plan. There had been a year's worth of meetings that Snape had attended, Voldemort was obviously convinced that he was faithful, and just as obviously convinced that Wormtail was not faithful, just cowardly. It might be that, having regained a body and his powers, Voldemort simply did not want Wormtail around him in a favoured position and dumped him on Snape. Snape obviously gets away with treating him like a servant. I think that Snape knew or guessed that Narcissa might contact him about Draco's task. He might not have been expecting Bella. He would also be aware that Bella did not trust him, but it does not appear to concern him.He is quite comfortable in his position of Voldemort's favourite. The other Death Eaters in the tower seemed to confirm this fact later. I believe that Dumbledore was dying from the spell damage to his hand and told Snape that he must do everything possible to cement his position with Voldemort, and that he must be in position to aid Harry when the time came. This would be the task of overwhelming importance. Snape was actually the one who brought up to the sisters that Voldemort meant him to perform the task if Draco was unable. No one really believed that Draco could do it. He was untrained, had not come into his full powers, had no real fighting experience, and had not a hope in Hell. Voldemort would have told Snape about it because Snape was again in the best position to pull it off if Draco failed as expected. I believe that Snape spent a few seconds going over the advantages and disadvantages of making an Unbreakable Vow and decided to go for it, as it would likely provide him with more information on how Draco planned to accomplish his task. When Narcissa added the third part of the Vow, it was no more than what Voldemort had told him he must do, and I think the hand-twitch was caused by concern over what Narcissa might choose for actual wording. I think that he thought he might have wriggle room. If the plan never came to completion, he wouldn't have a problem. I believe that Snape told Dumbledore that he had taken the Vow and the exact wording of it. Dumbledore would have told him that it was unlikely to be a problem, that he had time to foil Draco's attempts in the meantime, and to keep an eye on Draco so that they could stop him before he got in too deep. This is what Snape spent all year doing. Draco became more desperate as time went on, Snape also became increasingly fearful that time was running out and there were things happening that Draco was not telling him. By the time of the argument in the forest, Dumbledore was weakening still, had every intention of risking himself taking another horcrux. Snape was complaining bitterly that Draco was avoiding him, had something planned that he had not been able to uncover. I think Dumbledore lost patience with him and told him that if worst came to worst, he must do as he vowed. The way it looked then was that Draco was not going to make a serious attempt, if Draco wouldn't tell him anything, he could not be held to the vow, and if Snape didn't know that an attempt was being made, he could not carry out the third part of the vow either so quit worrying. I think Snape told him to Hell with it, he was not prepared to take the risk of being forced to kill him and that he did not want to do it any more. Dumbledore took too much for granted and was not worried enough. Dumbledore snapped back and told him that he'd agreed to do it and that was all there was to it. Nobody found out that Draco was working out a way to let Death Eaters into Hogwarts. Once that occurred all bets were off. Snape and Dumbledore were both neatly cornered. I'm sure there was a last communication between them, I'm sure Dumbledore apologised for placing Snape in that position, he was always courteous, and told Snape to get it done as he was dying anyway. There was no way out. After reading this book, I felt far worse for Snape than I did for Dumbledore. KJ From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 06:53:50 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 06:53:50 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137573 > And why should the reversal be about Severus? We have two more > candidates for redemption -- Wormtail and Draco. Are all of them > going to be redeemed? That would make for a good moral message but > would be, from a literary standpoint, extremely over the top. Two I > could see, I guess, but even that seems like straining the point. > Is Severus truly the best candidate for redemption? > > Lupinlore HAHA! Sharp as a blade Lupinlore! Your argument is brilliant and absolutely commands a good reply. Now not that I would claim to believe Pippin can't give one, not at all, I'm impatient to read it actually, but in the meanwhile, I can't ignore this challenge myself. I *have to* state my case because, quite simply, I think Snape is the *ideal* candidate. (And I am sure Draco wil be also redeemed somewhat as well, but not Peter, but neither is a candidate the likes of Sevvie) So why, you might ask, is Severus Snape the one who would be the ideal redemption. And here is my answer: 1. Choices - In the HP Series, we have more than enough evidence to be going on basing much prediction on the theme of Free Will Choices. Now in comparison to the other two candidates Snape has the choices thing tied in a nice neat bow for the finale. Draco OTOH is too young to be the prime suspect in the series as someone who *BIG BANG* has to face his choices, and while Peter OTOH is set up to now as one who is far too indecisive to really be able to make any connection to his own choices before he meets his end. At least he might try to repay Harry in the end, a last minute sort of decision, not much of a redemption can be imagined in Peter, for mine. Now Snape on the other hand. Lets *look*. Starting with the ABC's of Snapes' Choices A. He chose Dark Magic. Very young, Snape was deeply enamoured of the mysterious Dark Arts. Now lets not be blind to the facts, Little Sevvie did *know* that there were evil Wizards out there wreaking havoc with these forces, he was *aware* that these dark powers were the tools of those who did not do *good* in the world. And yet, compelled by some sensibility in him. He *chose* them for himself. B. He chose his Hogwarts image. This image Sevvie projected of himself towards his fellow students was /something else/ consider it for a moment, in all its calculated and pre-determined glory. To his Teachers and Head of House, he was a quiet, gifted boy. To many of the *other* students he was a fearfully dangerous young man dabbling in curses that most of them couldn't recognise. To one unique student, Lily Potter, he was apparently harmless and well behaved. To his enemies, James and Sirius, he was a real nasty piece of work sneaking and conniving against them, he was a "Sniveller" they thought, and he was definitely something that they didn't like, based on principle. Snape chose very young to be whatever to whomever as long as it suited his purposes. He was treated well by his elders (read no detentions, and getting away with some nasty business on the Marauders), those who were no harm to him were either scared of him or otherwise weren't really aware of his darker side, and those who sought to confront him were treading on dangerous ground in his eyes, and deserved to be out of the way. The spy game was 'easy' enough for Sevvie, since he'd been wearing masks all his life already. C. He chose to go after Lupin. Hoping to get the Marauders expelled for mischief? Probably. He most likely hoped that he could find out something incredibly juicy about Sirius and James, he probably was only part interested in Lupins ailment, if it was something he could use to remove the bothersome bane of *their* existence in his life. This is an interesting one because it reveals a very stupid choice on Snapes behalf, he chose to wander into the kind of danger that he could have *known* Sirius and James *lived for* unprepared and vulnerable. It was a choice with very grave consequences. But he didn't pay the price of his folly, he was saved by someone, someone *he thought he knew* to be a coward and a fool, someone who he could never forgive for knowing the real Snape so so much better than he knew himself. That person was James Potter. D. He chose the Death Eaters. Sevvies choice to join the DE's was probably not light. To basis of it was most likely that he wanted to practice his precious Dark Magic. It's doubtful that he cared for Voldemorts ideals, too passionate, too harebrained. It's unlikely he thought of Voldie as a master. He was just Powerful, so that made him useful, plus he wanted to get rid of this stupid ban on the Dark Arts that the fool dogooders in all their hypocrisy had the nerve to impose. Here in this place Severus made a clear and unambiguous choice, to join with Voldemort, who had what he wanted. And it was all fun and games and Dark Arts Power for a while, just as he had hoped and nobody really knows him, again. E. He chose to tell Voldemort the Prophecy. Given all this previous argument to Severus character, it actually seems an odd choice that he would even *bother* with the Prophecy. Does this begin to show the cracks in Severus' mask which he has long since forgotten that he's wearing? I think yes. I think Sevvie makes this choice almost out of a very dirty bad habit that he'd been supporting himself in for so many years that he doesn't even realise he's doing it anymore. And then the awful truth hits him. He realises that this pursuit hasn't gained him anything. In fact, worst of all, Voldemorts reaction is going to *lose* him something (insert your own pet theory - Lollipops - Life Debt - etc), he doesn't like this habit anymore. And he wants out. Naturally, Snape is a very clever boy, and he knows just how to do that. F. He chooses to go to Dumbledore. Now I am speculating. But I believe that the first time Snape went to Dumbledore, he wasn't all that sincere. He was just trying to save his own skin. Fortunately for him Voldemort has already sent him to spy on DD, so he is in the very lucky position to have the perfect safety net readily available. First he confesses Voldemorts plan coupled with his disgust and sadness over it to DD. He says he wants to turn Double Agent, and DD gives him some help (Insert protection for his Mother/Father here and) a full time job in his *second* favourite subject. G. He chooses to be a Double Agent. Dangerous business always playing either side of the board. But Snape is again wearing a mask, and again in a comfortable position of influence and dignity no matter who he deals with. He is comfortable with his choices as he was in school. Nobody knows who he truly is. ***H,I,J,K*** Dumbledore chooses to trust Snape. We have just looked at Snapes major choices up until the day that Dumbledore chooses to trust him, give or take a few. So what is it about these choices that reveal to DD the man Snape truly is? Is it perhaps that he became habitually loyal to Voldemort rather than deeply (speculation)? Is it perhaps that he thought of his mother when asking for help (pure speculation)? Is it because he could have been observed wearing many faces when he was a young boy and DD could see that his true nature was something more vulnerable and innocent than those masks? Or is it because he was awoken from his slumbering loyalty to the DE by the image of someone as pure and wonderful as Lily, and someone as good and brave as his old enemy James suffering at Voldemorts hand? I think it was this. The pattern of Snapes choices lead him in only one direction, deeper and deeper into the darkness. And Dumbledore saw, something remarkable about Snape in that very fact. DD saw that Snape ensnared himself with his choices, and that he always found it hard to accept his own responsibility for that, which made him appear to be a remarkably evil and bitter person. And Snapes choices revealed one other thing about him, they revealed that when he had repeated the pattern that lead him down to the whomping willow that fateful night in his school years, when he had again lead himself to darkness and stumbled into a minefield of his own making, he had *learned* from his first mistake that he might have underestimated the other side, the light side. He *learned* from James gallant rescue of his arch enemy that when confronted with the utmost darkness *there is another way* that you might not have seen before. And he hadn't forgotten it. Although he still blamed James and Sirius for his near death experience, although he never conciously or openly admitted that he was wrong about James, Dumbledore saw in Snape something that Snape couldn't see for himself. DD saw that Snape remembered James. And he knew from that moment, although Snape was not a good person and probably never would be, DD knew that Snape could *choose* to have James Potter ride in again and save him. He could see that Snape saw the worth of his old enemies deeds and measured them against Voldemorts. He was happy enough to know that at least, even if he never admitted it, Snape remembered James. (In a good way). So this is why Snape is the perfect candidate for redemption IMO. Because it's all there in his head. He can remember that he's been here before, many times before, in a nightmare of his own making. The first time James saved him, the second time Dumbledore saved him, The third time he will only have Harry's mercy, and if Harry can't save him noone can. He has a lot to beg Harry's forgiveness for. But first he has to realise again that he wandered too deeply into the darkness and he has to realise again the worth of James deed, and Dumbledore's deed. Its his turn to repay his debt, and redeem himself before Harry. That's some of my argument. Any comments? Valky Who is truly sorry to Saraquel for seeming ignorant, but the Love thread posts are on their way, I promise. From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 07:12:22 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:12:22 -0000 Subject: DD and RAB/horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prongs103" wrote: > I am utterly perplexed by the fact that DD's death and the escape of > Snape bares no obvious fruit, since the horcrux which Harry and DD set > out to find (consequently leaving the castle alone without dd's > presence, allowing the death eaters in) turns out to be fake. So DD > poisoned himself and left the castle vulnerable ultimately leading to > his death, for a FAKE horcrux? Cmon Mrs. Jo Rowling, WHY? Someone > please help me to understand this. Also this RAB character, who is > this? > > Prongs. Finwitch: Well - the RAB I believe, was Regulus A Black, Sirius' brother. I believe RAB managed to send the real horxrux to Sirius before he died. (he was expecting to be dead, was he not?) That means that this horcrux is probably in vault 711... Diary is destroyed. The Horcrux Ring of Slytherin is destroyed. The Goblet of Hufflepuff Horcrux is in Gringotts vault 711, inherited by Harry. That means, basically, half done. So, Harry needs to find out what and where the others are... and destroy them. Now that he can apparate, travel won't take up his time. Finwitch From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 14 09:23:44 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 05:23:44 -0400 Subject: Trelawney's part in HBP Message-ID: <005201c5a0b1$ded3df90$b8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137575 Ceridwen >>One other thing I noticed, on page 544 of the US edition. Trelawney, bemoaning her relationship with Firenze, says in part, "...Would Dumbledore have let me teach at this great school, *put so much trust in me all these years*, had I not proved myself to him?" He placed the same sort of trust in Snape, it appears, and with similar results: no one trusts either of them, only in different ways. CathyD now: But, we know, Dumbledore doesn't *trust* Trelawney in the way he trusts Snape. She is at the school purely for her own protection. Snape overheard the first part of the prophecy. He knows who made the prophecy. She could be delivered into Voldemort's hands to try to get the rest of the prophecy from her. Neither Snape nor LV know that Trelawney has no memory of making the prophecy. Dumbledore is only keeping her at the castle to keep her safe from torture at the hands of first, LV, then the DEs who walked free. Trelawney doesn't know she is only at the school for her own protection...she thinks she's there because she's a wonderful teacher and Seer. As to your question, it is at the beginning of the chapter called, I think, The House of Gaunt. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 14 09:25:16 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 05:25:16 -0400 Subject: Draco and the imperius Message-ID: <005601c5a0b2$159b2880$b8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137576 Chris >>I rather figured that it was an adult DE who'd cast that spell. Only Harry (we think) has used an unforgivable and not very well. Would LV trust Malfloy to cast one that could be broken? It might have been snape, at DDs orders. CathyD now: No, I don't think it was Snape. DD seems genuinely surprised that Rosmerta is involved. It is someone else who is in Hogsmeade. Someone stationed in Hogsmeade, perhaps, to protect the school? During the last war there were Ministry members who were on LV's side - Rookwood for one. I think it was one of the Aurors stationed in Hogsmeade as extra protection for the school. We know nothing of Proudfoot or Savage and Dawlish is there from time to time as well, apparently, as DD says Dawlish was set to tail him. And no, I don't think it was Tonks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 09:32:05 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:32:05 -0000 Subject: 3 Filks I've not posted here due to volume Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137577 I have a couple of filks I haven't posted here that have been written since HBP, so I thought I'd just do them all in one post. "Girl called Phlegm" is to the tune of ZZ Top's "Sharp Dressed Man". To CMC, who in no way reminds me of anything one might hack. Ginny, sitting in Harry's room at the Burrow, explains to Harry what life with "Phlegm" has been like. GINNY: Fred stares, Ron drools. Man, I think the are a bunch of fools. George grins, Bill sighs. I don't know why mother tries. They come runnin' if she just looks at them, Cuz every guy's crazy 'bout this girl called Phlegm. Bill's hooked, bought a ring. Ron can't think about another thing. Tonks out, Phlegm in. I just want to chuck her in the bin. They'd come runnin' if she yelled out for them, Cuz every guy's crazy 'bout this girl called Phlegm. "Phlegm this." "Phlegm that." "All zees Eenglish food weel make me fat." Bill says: True love. Someone slap that boy- he needs a shove. He'll come runnin' like all the rest of them, Cuz every guy's crazy 'bout this girl called Phlegm. *************************************************** Quite recently, in a galaxy so close as to be considered a parallel universe, Tim Regan (Dumbledad) said: "I think I know who the human Horcrux is, and it is not Harry. Let's examine the evidence 1) Having part of the soul of the Dark Lord residing inside you would drain you of your vitality and color. 2) Voldemort's meddling in his own soul reduced his once handsome features to "glaring red eyes and slits for nostrils" (PS/SS C17) 3) Voldemort's sense of grandeur and destiny would start to take over your own judgements. In short, one of Voldemort's horcruxes is Michael Jackson." Needless to say, it spawned a filk. To Tim Regan Horcrux To the tune of Thriller by Michael Jackson. The scene: The cave. Harry has forced DD to drink the green goo. HARRY: You've drained the basin, And now you're needing water from the lake. You'd put your face in, But instinct tells you that is a mistake. You try to scream, And *aguamenti's* futile; you must face it. Water's a dream, And once you touch the lake, you realize: It's your demise. 'Cause this is Horcrux, Horcrux night. And no one's gonna save you >From th' inferi left and right. 'Cause this is Horcrux, Horcrux night. You're fighting for your life to get a Horcrux, No lux, tonight. Magical drink banned, The lake's the only place where waters run. You feel the cold hand, And then you realize what you have done. You see their eyes, A horror that's beyond imagination. Your memory fries. Inferi start to creep up from behind. You've lost your mind. 'Cause this is Horcrux, Horcrux night. They're coming by by the score, And there's no chance to set it right. 'Cause this is Horcrux, Horcrux night. You're fighting for your life to get a Horcrux, No lux tonight. Out of the pool- (Where is Paula Abdul to teach promanade?) If they were dancin' We might have a chance to flee in time. The walls I climb. This is LV's perfect crime. You try the old spells, But more keep coming in on every side. Your nightmare's worst hells, You wonder if your Headmaster has died. But just in time, He comes around and casts a ring of fire. He's so sublime. He boards the boat and you cast off to sea. Now you are free. It was a Horcrux, Horcrux night. And you're with Dumbledore So there's no cause to shake or cry. Yeah, it's a Horcrux, Horcrux night. So you just hang on tight, And have a Horcrux, no lux, soul tucks, This sucks! here tonight. DUMBLEDORE (a la Vincent Price): Darkness rules Tom Riddle's land. Hold tight your wand within your hand. Creatures out to suck your blood Are lurking in the salt and mud. Remember, Harry, if you're found, A ring of fire to cast around. If it is cast, all's good and well, But if it's not, you're doomed to hell. Their soulless eyes all seem to stare. Their bony hands are everywhere. They rise up from their liquid tomb To seal your fate and bring your doom. And though we managed to survive, As I could *Accio lux*, There's more than one way to deprive The Dark Lord of a Horcrux. ************************************************** "Sit Softly, Love" to the tune of "Speak Softly Love" aka the Love Theme from the Godfather. Music by Nino Rota and lyrics by Larry Kusik. Famously sung by Andy Williams (wow, my 2nd Andy song!) A first solo for Elliot Smethwyck, who in 1820, developed the Cushioning Charm. To whomever made the fresh popcorn. The old stuff was sticking in my teeth. Elliot was a rather henpecked hubby. His wife refused to ride brooms after the birth of their 11th child due to what she referred to as "that-other-pain-in-that-area-and-I'm-not-talking-about-you- Elliot". Sensing that carpets were heading towards extinction, and figuring that replacing them would cost more body parts than he could afford, he attempted to convince his wife to give up her (then-legal) Berber 250 by inventing the Cushioning Charm. He sings: Sit softly, love, I have improvements to impart. I feel your pain, the tenderness in your hind part. And though your derriere has grown, You'll find a comfort that 'til now has been unknown. Now we can fly up to the sun. Under the moon, for a mead-run. Sit softly, love, we'll fly together in the sky. We'll fly together as we travel yon and nigh. We'll soar so high, so high above, And you'll fly by my side, my love. Sit softly, love. (instrumental chorus as she tries the broom) Now we can fly up to the sun. Under the moon, for a mead-run. Sit softly, love, we'll fly together in the sky. We'll fly together as we travel yon and nigh. We'll soar so high, so high above, And you'll fly by my side, my love. Sit softly, love. As a footnote, Mrs. Smethwyck wasn't all that tickled by the charm itself, but as the royalties came flooding in, she eventually came around and they lived happily ever after. The end. Ginger, still laughing at Aunt Petunia taking on DE's with a spatula. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 14 10:02:06 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 06:02:06 -0400 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil Message-ID: <005a01c5a0b7$3ac89390$b8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137578 Matt said: Even if Snape had Voldemort's trust > before the confrontation on the > tower, that trust was 100% at risk > once Snape walked up those stairs > and took in the scene.If Snape had > obstructed Voldemort's plan to kill > Dumbledore, rather than aiding it, > he'd have raised a huge new > question about his loyalty. Eggplant: >Not so, Snape could have killed all the Death Eaters and then told Voldemort that Dumbledore had done it. It would make a plausible story, Draco really didn't confide all the details to Snape so he could claim to be on the other side of the castle at the time. CathyD now: He'd have had to kill Draco, too. You're forgetting Priori Incantato that can be used on a wand to find out the last spell it cast. I'm quite sure there is another spell, another way, to find out the last *few*. At the very least, Snape would have had to remember to kill Dumbledore last. By that time he may not have needed to kill him he'd already have been dead from the poison. The point on the Tower scene is that Snape has to appear to be a DE in front of the DEs. He cannot *cannot* break that cover. (He'd have been killed either by the DEs on the tower, or by LV himself later.) Snape is too important to the rest of Dumbledore's plan. The fact that Harry is there to witness this was *not* part of Dumbledore's plan. He was sending Harry to get Snape (to stop the poison) when they heard footsteps on the stairs. He shooed Invisible!Harry out of the way, Petrified him, and then was disarmed by Draco. Dang, he didn't mean for it to go down like this. Matt: > You also assume that the Order's > current lack of trust in Snape > cannot be remedied. Eggplant: That is correct, no conservable turn of events could make me forgive Snape and a doubt Harry or any member of the Order would feel very different CathyD: I can think of a couple of ways. Only Order members can use their Patronus for communication. While Harry wouldn't recognize Snape's patronus, McGonagall would. A well placed, well worded, message from Snape arriving for McGonagall in her headmistresses office, with Dumbledore's portrait there to confirm what Snape is saying? Snape, transfigured to look like Dumbledore appearing to Harry to give him one last memory...the memory of why Dumbledore so completely trusts Snape? I'm sure others here can think of many more and much better. It is very early after all. Matt > Suppose the request Dumbledore > made was simply "if it comes > down to killing me or breaking > your vow (and dying yourself), > I insist that you kill me." Eggplant: What do you mean "if it comes down to that"? Once Snape made that Unbreakable Vow it HAD to come down to that. CathyD: No, it did not. Snape could have chosen death. Snape completed the task on the tower because he was under Dumbledore's orders to do so. Dumbledore was well aware of the types of things that may be required of Snape as he is posing as a DE. He knew it at the end of GoF when he sent Snape back to Voldemort. Snape knew it too: "'Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ...' 'I am,' said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. 'Then, good luck.' said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehensionon his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius. It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again." Snape made the decision to make the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa (I believe he knew the task, having Legilimensed it from Narcissa's mind) as proof to not just Bella and Cissy (he could care less about their trust as he showed several times in Chapt 2) but to prove to LV that he could be trusted to the utmost degree. Snape knows this will get back to LV. He tells Dumbledore of the situation immediately, of course. And Dumbledore and Snape both know that *if it comes down to it* and Draco can't do it, then to fulfill the Vow and remain under cover as a DE, Snape *must* complete the task. Does Snape feel like a coward - murdering the man he trusted, and who trusted him, for so long? The 'father figure' in Snape's life? I wouldn't be surprised if that is why he was so angry when Harry called him coward. Snape, himself, felt like a coward: he would rather have died than kill Dumbledore, the greatest wizard of all time. Matt > He [Harry] does not say he > won't rest until Snape is dead. Eggplant: >Does Harry really need to spell that out? If Harry kills Voldemort and Snape still lives do you really imagine he will forget about Snape and just play Quidditch and eat ice cream in Hogsmead? I don't think so. CathyD: First, I don't expect Snape to live to the end but that's another theory. Snape is going to prove himself to be *Dumbledore's man, through and through* in book 7. Whatever Dumbledore knows about why Snape truly redeemed himself from his role of Death Eater, we are going to find out, at some point. Even if it is at the point where Snape dies while protecting Harry from LV. Matt: > He says he won't rest until > *Voldemort* is dead, and if > Snape gets in his way, so > much the worse for Snape. Eggplant: >And Harry says he now hates Snape just as much as he hates Voldemort, if Snape is really a good guy in disguise then Dumbledore's mysterious plan was a disastrous flop guaranteed to lead to tragedy because one of them is going to kill the other, it's only a matter of time. CathyD: Dumbledore's plan is not a flop at all. As JKR has said, these two final books are two parts of a whole. We haven't seen the end of this story yet. I can't see the ultimate end as Harry killing Snape or vice versa. To me that is quite a stretch. Snape protected Harry to the very end of HBP. Not only that, he protected everyone of the Order (or good side) that he came into contact with during the Tower battle (apart from Dumbledore, my thought on that is above). He Stupefied Flitwick but that is easily mended (Hermione could have done it if she had though to) and Snape never touched Hermione or Luna when he could have killed, easily, all three of them. Snape ran through the battle to the top of the tower, never lifting a wand to anyone, nor did he on the way back down but shouted "It's over, it's time to go". He was trying to get the DEs and Greyback out of the castle as quickly as he could...nor more damage than had already been done before he got there. Snape could easily have killed any one or more of Tonks, Lupin (God knows he'd like to), McGonagall, Neville (he knows that would be easy enough), Ron or Ginny. Yet he never touched any of them. He stopped a DE using Crucio on Harry right at the bitter end, and did no more himself, than give him a good sharp, magical slap in the face (yes, I think it was Snape and not Buckbeak). Matt > Maybe Harry has been further > poisoned against Snape Eggplant: >One of the great understatements of all time CathyD: Oh, but you underestimate Harry, Eggplant. Harry, at some point in book 7 (gee, I wish she'd give us a name), is going to realize that Snape's AK was nothing like any other he had every witnessed (either in person on in his dream of Frank Bryce). Just like many of us have realized it. He's going to put his AK memories together in a Pensive (once he learns how to get out of one) and be able to *spot patterns and links*. Dumbledore's "Strange how short-sighted being invisible can make you" certainly comes into play here. If Harry were to drop the Tower scene memory into a Pensive, would he be able to hear the conversation that clearly went on between Dumbledore and Snape? Only JKR knows for sure (any thoughts on this idea, Susan?). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 10:09:40 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:09:40 -0000 Subject: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137579 Lupinlore wrote: > And why should the reversal be about Severus? We have two more > candidates for redemption -- Wormtail and Draco. Are all of them >going to be redeemed? That would make for a good moral message but >would be, from a literary standpoint, extremely over the top. Two I >could see, I guess, but even that seems like straining the point. >Is Severus truly the best candidate for redemption? > >Lupinlore > Saraquel: Ok, further to Valky's excellent reasons for redeeming Snape, most of which I agree with ? I think that Snape is the one to be redeemed because the plot will demand it. I think that one of the `lessons' Harry is going to have to learn before he meets Voldemort, is the rejection of vengeance and someone is going to have to teach him it. (For full background on why I think he needs to learn this, see my post Last Judgement Love ? Choices 137475) I think that Harry wants revenge on Snape almost more than he wants it on Voldemort. Although he has no love for either Draco or Pettigrew, he is not roused to absolute rage by them. OK, this is pure speculation on my part, based on how I think the themes of the book are working out. So no cannon evidence I'm afraid, which means I am quite prepared to be torpedoed! I think that somewhere down the line Harry is going to learn about what has been motivating Snape, and that's going to muddy the black and white moral waters of Harry's attitude to Snape. It could be that he finds it out when he learns what happened at GH (I'm not saying that Snape was at GH, the jury's out on that one for me, at the moment, although it wouldn't surprise me if he was there.) or it could be something Snape reveals to him at their next meeting ? as Snape casually brushes off any unforgiveable curses Harry is trying to throw at him. This meeting is going to have profound effects for both Harry and Snape. IMO, Harry cannot destroy Snape, that would be to give way to vengeance, and to be seduced by the dark side, so Harry's attitude has to change for some reason. There is also a possibility, that Snape learns something from Harry about what happened at GH which forces him to face, as Valky says, the truth about his actions. Admitedly, Harry giving up on vengeance does not of necessity deliver a redeemed Snape. But I think it would plotwise, make for a more profound basis for the meeting with Voldemort if Snape was redeemed. Because, I don't think that Voldemort is going to be redeemed. Hence, it can be seen that your choices really are your salvation or your damnation. Saraquel Who was touched by Valky's message to her at the bottom of her post, and hopes she got the email telling her, no pressure. Contributing to that theme is no picnic in my experience! From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 14 10:19:03 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 06:19:03 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again Message-ID: <007201c5a0b9$9a286660$b8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137580 Lupinlore >>Not at all! Many Snape-Evil people (I don't include myself with them, by the way, since I think Snape has definite Good AND definite Evil in his character) point out that the thing that is worse than death is having your soul ripped into shreds by murder, thus condemning yourself to a nightmare partial existance. And why would Dumbledore, the epitome of goodness, ask someone to do that to themselves? CathyD now - who does know this is four. Dumbledore didn't ask Snape to kill him. Never. He made it clear to Snape that since Snape had made the *choice* to make the Unbreakable Vow, he could not, if put in the position to do so, break it. Their Legilimency conversation on the tower was quite simply *Severus* 'you cannot break the Vow you chose to make.' *Severus, please* 'you need to do what you said you would do when you took the Vow.' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 13:01:46 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:01:46 -0000 Subject: The Nature of Lily's sacrifice - Was:Last Judgement Love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137581 Saraquel: There is part of me that thinks, now I've got this far, that I have said nothing new, well nothing that Valky has not already said. If so, I'm sorry it's been such a long haul to get nowhere much :-) However, I know it has helped *me* to understand better the possible nature of Lily's sacrifice. I think there is more that can be deduced from thinking on this theme, that might well take us further to solving what happened when Voldemort cast the fateful AK and what happens in the final showdown. But that's either for another post of mine, or another post from anyone who is following this theme. Please, please, do add your thoughts to cauldron. Valky: I think I know exactly where to take this discussion. But I fear, it again refers to religious themes so please forgive. Writing as it comes to mind, I am thinking that Saraquel has made an extraordinary point about the nature of Lily's sacrifice in comparing it to christian themes of redemption and christs bequeathing of redemptive power to the world. I will try to be canon speculative and not heavily theological in this post but first I will test a bit of thin ice and request the patience of our christian or otherwise inclined members while I introduce the crucifixion to this post. Ok there I've said it.. please be gentle if I have overstepped my bounds. The sacrifice that Jesus made for the earth in this theology has certain symbols attached to it that, now I have broached the subject, I will list briefly and get back to canon: a Cross, a Crown of Thorns. These things may be mirrored in Godrics Hollow, and then again they may not. If they are, if Harry's story hs roots in this theme of christian redemption and theology, which many many great stories do have, then we might quickly strike one of these off the list. The Crux. It is a tool of the evil in the world who would seek to immortalise itself by removing the great threat to its nature. (who couldn't tell whether I was talking about HP canon or christian canon just then? point made, no? ) So suffice to say that going with our assumptions, there is one of these symbols right here in Godrics Hollow. Then there is the thorny crown. The mark of a condemned person, placed on the head of the threat. (Ok I was just having fun then.. lol I mean to stick strictly to HP canon but it just comes out this way.) There is something very interesting about this mark on Harry's head. And its not just that it is a connection to Voldemort. Harry's scar, is the same shape as the mark on the broken ring. I am not the first to say that, but I am interested in this fact. When did the ring break? Did it break when the Horcrux was made or when it was destroyed? We aren't given that in canon. What we are given is in PS/SS, Hagrid says that Harry's scar is a sign that he has been touched by a dreadful curse, and the Sorting hat says to Harry "It's all here.. in your head.." ??? excuse me? Whats in his head exactly? Is it a horcrux? or *was* it a horcrux? These are the answers I don't think we can actually *get* from canon, I am sure JKR has been careful not to let them slip, but they might be telling us something about Lily. The mark of condemnation was *supposed* to be on her head if she was this redeemer. Right? And if we are going to put the whole redeemer story in there. Then Lily wore that scar on her own head, or at least something of the same nature. Lets just go the whole hog and assume it all means that Voldie marked Lily with this mark, before he did anything else. When she chose to die for Harry she *was* wearing this crown of the condemned. Lily died marked as Voldemorts equal. The mist around Godrics Hollow, I think, has begun to dissipate. Valky From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 13:40:29 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:40:29 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: I'm going to start at the potion and work backward. Thinking > about the way Voldemort's mind works, what kind of potion would he > make? One suggestion from Merrylinks I *really* liked, but couldn't > quite make fit in my own mind, was that Voldemort would make a > potion that forces a person to see his/her own death. That would be > LV's idea of the worst nightmare! But DD doesn't fear death and if > he was seeing his own death, he would have seen clues about the > experience on the Astronomy Tower. I don't believe that happened. Merrylinks: Actually, the suggestion that Voldemort would make a person see his own death was *your* idea, Jen! Check out Post #135447. I think the idea is intriguing, but I want to be sure you get the credit for it. Jen: > So back to the potion, if it's not facing death, Voldemort's next > favorite would be experiencing fear. But not just feeling great > fear, the person would have to be defenseless, possibly in pain and > unable to perform any magic. > > I do think Dumbledore's episode in the cave, and later on the > Astonomy Tower, must be the boggart experience JKR mentioned in the > TLC/Mugglenet interviews Merrylinks: I agree. I believe that Dumbledore's boggart is seeing harm caused to others as a result of mistakes he has made. And when he chose to ignore Harry's warning about Draco as they were leaving for the cave, Dumbledore made a huge mistake. Jen: > Basically what we saw on the Astronomy Tower was very similar to > what Dumbledore experienced in the cave (without the same > particulars of course). I think we saw his greatest fear being played out there, and we > saw Dumbledore react as he did in the cave--'don't hurt them, kill > me instead.' Merrylinks: Yes. I believe that in the cave and on the Tower we are seeing the same events, but from two different points of view. In a way it reminds me of the Time-Turner sequences in POA, where, the first time it appears that Buckbeak has been executed and Sirius is in danger of death from the Dementors, and the second time, we know that Buckbeak is actually freed and Sirius survives. In the cave scenes we hear the internal conversation Dumbledore will be having inside his own head. On the Tower we are looking at the same events, but from a perspective that is external to Dumbledore. From alterlisa at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 03:37:18 2005 From: alterlisa at yahoo.com (alterlisa) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:37:18 -0000 Subject: DD's not dead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137583 IMO DD is not dead, merely waiting under a spell from Snape. When it talks about DD's funeral it mentions's a "possible" phoenix flying "joyfully into the blue". This gives us hope that DD will be back in book 7. It also makes certain that Harry must carry on and discover the rest of the Horcruxes on his own. The prophecy that Harry will be the downfall of Voldemort will be fullfilled. Lisa From klodiana_xha at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 05:32:40 2005 From: klodiana_xha at yahoo.com (klodiana_xha) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 05:32:40 -0000 Subject: Snape definitely good Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137584 I am sure that Snape is not on the side of evil. The hatred and revulsion seen on his features when he AK-ed DD could be easily explained as how he was feeling about killing him. Go back to the cave and read about the revulsion Harry felt towards himself for making DD drink. I think, and feel free to tear my theory apart, that he went definitely on the good side cause he loved Lilly and he felt responsible for her death. Klodiana From rniche at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 01:30:15 2005 From: rniche at yahoo.com (rniche) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:30:15 -0000 Subject: Scrimgeour a "veil piercer"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137585 I am curious about the name Scrimgeour. A scrim is a sort of a veil. To gore is to pierce. Assuming the "geour" part is pronounced "gore", you have Rufus Veil piercer. Is he connected to the mysteries of going beyond the veil? Is he connected to the two characters named Percival (DD and Percy Weasley?) rniche From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 14 15:02:02 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Aug 2005 15:02:02 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1124031722.14.86052.m24@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137586 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 14, 2005 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 15:16:24 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:16:24 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: <005a01c5a0b7$3ac89390$b8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137587 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > He'd [Snape] have had to kill Draco, too. I wouldn't mind that much, certainly better that Draco assume room temperature than Dumbledore, but unfortunately Snape made that stupid Unbreakable Vow, something imposable to understand if he's really a good guy. Even so Snape could have faked Draco's death and he could have gone into hiding. Dumbledore had nearly convinced Draco to do it even when the plan was working, if it was clear the plan had failed I'm sure he'd cooperate; and Voldemort wouldn't be surprised, he expected Draco to die. > You're forgetting Priori Incantato > that can be used on a wand to find > out the last spell it cast. Spend 10 galleons and buy another wand. > Snape has to appear to be a DE > in front of the DEs. Not if the Death Eaters are dead. > A well placed, well worded, message > from Snape arriving for McGonagall > in her headmistresses office, with > Dumbledore's portrait there to confirm > what Snape is saying Well worded? There are no noises Snape could make with his mouth that could EVER make me forgive what he did or make me trust him for one instant. None, zero. > Snape completed the task on the > tower because he was under > Dumbledore's orders to do so. Yea, and Voldemort is really a good guy too and he killed Lilly and James reluctantly on their orders and he will send a well worded letter to Harry explaining the situation and the two will become best buddies. > he protected everyone of the Order > (or good side) that he came into > contact with during the Tower battle > apart from Dumbledore Besides that Mrs. Lincoln how did you like the play? > Snape protected Harry to the > very end of HBP. That is perfectly consistent with my theory that Snape wants to rule the world, he needs Harry to get rid of Voldemort for him. Eggplant From remuslupin73 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 11:53:35 2005 From: remuslupin73 at hotmail.com (ronnie) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:53:35 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts questions/OoP questions In-Reply-To: <193.45507aa5.3028777d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137588 Susan asked: > > Will Hogwarts remain open? > > If yes, > > Will Harry, Ron or Hermione go back even for a while? > > Who will be Head Boy and Head Girl? (Neville and Luna!) > > Who will be the Headmistress/Headmaster? > > Will Ginny be a prefect? (Since she won't be of age, she won't have a choice > about going back to school). > > Who will be the DADA teacher? > > Who will be the leader of the Order of the Phoenix? Ronnie: I don't think Ginny will be a prefect - she resembles Fred and George much too much! She's definitely not one to make sure others abide the rules.(But maybe Luna will be the ravenclaws prefect). MacG is going to be the headmistress, as I don't think the ministry will interfere in Hogwarts. As for HB and HG - what about Theodore Knott? Hermione is the obvious choice for HG, but she'll have to turn it down, won't she? Don't think it can be Neville - you have to get top grades, don't you? DADA - Voldy's an awfull choice, and I don't think he'll be: We all ready had him in disguise in PS, and I don't think the DE will take Hogwarts over, just yet. I think, due to the open-war situation, someone qualified from the ministry will come (perhaps Tonks or Kinsley, or any other Auror). Ronnie From Sherry at PebTech.net Sun Aug 14 14:28:18 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:28:18 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > We know from Lupin in POA a boggart will "become whatever each of us > most fears." So Dumbledore wouldn't be seeing memories so much as > his greatest fear after drinking the potion. > > My guess to his greatest fear is the fact that he's spent his life > defending and safeguarding many people and creatures in the WW. > People depend on him, go to him in emergenices, expect he will have > the right answers. And most times he does. But what a huge burden to > carry! So many people depending on him, and what if he lets them > down, makes one of his 'correpsondingly huge mistakes'? **One that > leads to the torture and death of his students, say.** [my emphasis addeded] Amontillada: I believe that's the key. Dumbledore has spent many years, since long before Voldemort arose, teaching and guiding generations of witches and wizards. He would protect them in any way he could, even putting his own life on the line. > > Basically what we saw on the Astronomy Tower was very similar to > what Dumbledore experienced in the cave (without the same > particulars of course). He's weak, defenseless, hears his students > are dying. ... > I think we saw his greatest fear being played out there, and we > saw Dumbledore react as he did in the cave--'don't hurt them, kill > me instead.' Amontillada: His greatest fear was happening, and he was ready to sacrifice his own life in an effort to protect his students. The worst part was that he couldn't guarantee the safety of his students, but he would give everything he had, even his own life, in his best attempt. Amontillada From mdelgadov at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 14:58:12 2005 From: mdelgadov at hotmail.com (Miguel Delgado) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:58:12 -0000 Subject: Snape, loyaltie and the fine thread Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137590 To all Snape haters: It seems to me that Severus is one of the most interesting and human characters in the series. Most others are one dimensional, plain-all- good-or-all-bad people. But Severus, aha, Severus is just like you and me, a slug, a saint, a traitor twice, trice. Even when JKR has put many, many clues on Severus innocence, final redemption and utter salvation, the All-Bad-Snape haters blindly pretend not to listen, very much a la' Harry's. But after following the threads, it amazes me that most of you had not seen the real Snape's testament at the end of the book. No, I'm not talking about killing DD, but the battle with Harry afterwards. True, Snape hates the James he sees in Harry; the lack of focus, the lack of attitude, the pretention that he and only he knows and understands. But at the end, finally freed of Dumbledore's restrains and instead of releasing all the hatred, he gives Harry a last immensely important lesson on Occlumensy. That and the fact that he LOVES Lily and the redemption that this carries will be revealed in the last book. Just wait two years. The Sourcerer's Apprentice From carodave92 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 15:53:08 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:53:08 -0000 Subject: Scrimgeour a "veil piercer"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137591 "rniche" wrote: > I am curious about the name Scrimgeour. A scrim is a sort of a veil. > To gore is to pierce. > Assuming the "geour" part is pronounced "gore", you have Rufus Veil > piercer. Is he connected > to the mysteries of going beyond the veil? Carodave replies: According to the 'Harry Potter Pronunciation Guide', Scrimgeour is pronounced with a soft 'g' (not like gore). The link to the site is below: (I am not sure exactly how to attach a link) http://scholastic.com/harrypotter/books/pronunciation/play.htm But I don't see why your theory still can't work...I like it. Carodave From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 14 16:11:57 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:11:57 -0000 Subject: Pervasive Mist from Dementors Breeding Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137592 A chilly mist, which Fudge says is from dementors breeding (pg 14 US), is mentioned several times. It's in London, and it's intermittent on the train ride to Hogwarts (pg 140 US). It's chilly when they go to Hogsmeade (pg 243 US), but I don't think we can tell if that's the from the dementors breeding, or just normal weather for October. Is it just chilly mist? Or does mist from breeding activity have anything to do with lovesick behavior in Tonks, and possibly others, too? How do dementors breed? I don't believe we have been told in canon, have we? I had it in my head that they sucked the soul out of someone, and that created a new dementor, but now I think that's from fan fiction. I'm wondering if this mist is one of those things that turns out to be significant later. From lynns at wowway.com Sun Aug 14 15:24:05 2005 From: lynns at wowway.com (magicmom2001) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:24:05 -0000 Subject: DD and RAB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137593 Prongs wrote: > I am utterly perplexed by the fact that DD's death and the escape of > Snape bares no obvious fruit, since the horcrux which Harry and DD set > out to find (consequently leaving the castle alone without dd's > presence, allowing the death eaters in) turns out to be fake. So DD > poisoned himself and left the castle vulnerable ultimately leading to > his death, for a FAKE horcrux? Cmon Mrs. Jo Rowling, WHY? Someone > please help me to understand this. Also this RAB character, who is > this? It can't be anyone that is contact with DD b/c they would have > told him of there discovery and actions. This has been the biggest > question on my mind since finishing the book, the other being, will > Harry and Ginny end up together(I hope so)? > > Sorry this post jumps around so much, I am new to the group. "magicmom2001": Nothing wrong with being New Prongs : ) Many fans believe RAB is obvious - check the tapestry (The noble and most ancient house of Black) in OOP. As for asking "why", now you know one of the greatest reasons there are HP for grownups & other websites, we all ask why & sprout our beliefs. We get to put on our spectrespecs and examine every line of every book (while awaiting the next sequel). As you stated, if RAB ws a member of the OOP, DD would have known one Horcrux was gone (by the way, check US bk five pg 116; "There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them could open..."). We see DD leaving for great lengths of time in bk six & it's not to help Fudge or the Ministry, as suggested in previous books so the quest to find the Horcrux's, at least as a main priority, may be fairly recent for DD. Let us always remember the author's license. For instance, it is book 3 (I think) we learn of Neville's parents being in St. Mungo's. DD asks HP did he ever ask Neville why he is being raised by his Grandmother. Ron is from a pureblood family and knows a lot of the community business, yet even he didn't know the answer. Everyone (WW) knew what happened to Neville's parents - it is even stated how upset the WW was b/c it occurred after LV's demise & people were just starting to feel safe again. This little tidbit is something surely Aurther & Molly knew. Anyone with kids know that children are privvy to lots of info about their classmates lives just through the adult conversations. Thus, I attribute this question to author's license. Sometimes you just have to write something which many will say "HUH?" but it fits in to the overall story. So on these few occasions, I just tell myself the answer is in the next book. "magicmom2001" From muellem at bc.edu Sun Aug 14 16:48:23 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:48:23 -0000 Subject: Snape, loyaltie and the fine thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miguel Delgado" wrote: snipping... > To all Snape haters: > > It seems to me that Severus is one of the most interesting and human > characters in the series. Most others are one dimensional, plain-all- > good-or-all-bad people. But Severus, aha, Severus is just like you > and me, a slug, a saint, a traitor twice, trice. > more snipping... > Even when JKR has put many, many clues on Severus innocence, final > redemption and utter salvation, the All-Bad-Snape haters blindly > pretend not to listen, very much a la' Harry's. > > > That and the fact that he LOVES Lily and the redemption that this > carries will be revealed in the last book. Just wait two years. > > The Sourcerer's Apprentice As I am not a Snape hater, I agree with all of your post - except for one tiny little dispute. There is no FACT that Snape loves Lily and I doubt Snape ever loved anyone(other than his mum, and even that is in question in my mind). I think there will be a revelation in book 7 which explains why Snape could never love anyone - he is the anti- thesis of Harry in the love department. Rowling has even stated: Will Snape fall in love?" And she readily answered: Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. " and MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has colebiancardi From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 14 17:13:03 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:13:03 -0000 Subject: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137595 > Merrylinks: Actually, the suggestion that Voldemort would make a > person see his own death was *your* idea, Jen! Check out Post > #135447. I think the idea is intriguing, but I want to be sure you > get the credit for it. Jen: Argh, sorry Merrylinks, for putting theories in your mouth. ;) I re-read our posts. I didn't give you the right credit, because you're the one who pointed out that what DD experienced in the cave and what we see on the Astronomy Tower are very similar (thread starts here for anyone interested btw): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135371 > Merrylinks: > Yes. I believe that in the cave and on the Tower we are seeing the > same events, but from two different points of view. In a way it > reminds me of the Time-Turner sequences in POA, where, the first > time it appears that Buckbeak has been executed and Sirius is in > danger of death from the Dementors, and the second time, we know > that Buckbeak is actually freed and Sirius survives. In the cave > scenes we hear the internal conversation Dumbledore will be having > inside his own head. On the Tower we are looking at the same > events, but from a perspective that is external to Dumbledore. Jen: Where we differ is, I don't think DD was seeing the future when he took the potion. I'm still of the mind that Dumbledore was having a boggart experience in the cave. We saw from Lupin's class that when faced with a boggart, a person doesn't see a specific series of events but has a more literal experience--a dementor, a spider, Snape, etc. DD would be a more complex person than his students at age 13, so his fears would be more complex. But he, too, would see literal fears: students being tortured or killed because of his own mistakes, DE's invading Hogwarts--more akin to what Molly sees, dead bodies of familiar people before her. But Dumbeldore wouldn't actually see the specific events on the Astronomy Tower because a boggart wouldn't show him a scene from the future. I do think when Dumbledore was on the Astronomy Tower, as his greatest fear played out before him, he was feeling increasingly desperate (much like we saw him in the cave). Knowing the DE's were at Hogwarts, hearing a student was dead, being unable to help any of the students because he is dying from the potion--in that moment he was probably thinking something similar to what we hear him say in the cave: "don't hurt them, don't hurt them, hurt me instead!" And then Severus walks in, and in that moment, DD realizes the solution to the problem --if Snape will 'kill' him, Snape can lead the DE's away from Hogwarts, save the students, take care of Draco. "KILL ME," he said in the cave; "Kill me now" he commands Snape nonverbally on the Tower. It would just bother me to find out Dumbledore actually saw the future in the cave, and when it's playing out before him, he doesn't do anything to warn Harry that Snape can be trusted, that whatever might take place Harry must not believe only his eyes, but Dumbledore's words. Of course, if Snape is actually betraying DD on the Tower, if Dumbledore's pleading "Sevrus...please..." was actually a moment of truth about who Snape is, a betrayer, then that fits better with the potion showing the future. (Except the "Kill me" part. That only fits if DD is commanding Snape to kill him on the Tower.) So I'm really thinking what Dumbeldore heard/saw in the cave was his greatest fear--a mistake of his leading to horrible events at Hogwarts, but not the specific scene on the Astonomy Tower. And I do think his greatest fear would include the invasion of Hogwarts. He's built Hogwarts into the sanctuary it is, for both people and creatures, and it's because of his devotion that he never wanted to leave his headmaster position (among other things, like not trusting politicians ). Jen, fearing this is overly convoluted but she can't figure out a way to say everything and make it any clearer. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 17:20:24 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:20:24 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black /Re: Snape, loyaltie and the fine thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137596 > Potioncat: > I'm not sure that just because Pettigrew was "assisting" Snape over the > summer between OoP and HBP, that it means he was living at Spinner's > End as Snape's servant ever since GoF. Alla: I don't think we know definite time frame when Peter started serving Snape, but I also agree with Finwitch that during OOP that si where Peter was. Makes sense to me in light of JKR promise to show where Peter had been during OOP in HBP. Of course it is just speculation. But if it is true, it makes Snape's taunting of Sirius in HBP to be so much more disgusting, IMO. Potioncat: > However, DD and the Order knew Pettigrew was alive and working for LV. > Do you think DD wanted Pettigrew turned in? For Snape to turn him in, > he would have had to blow his cover. DD told Harry he would be glad he > spared PP, so I think DD wants PP in LV's camp. Alla: I agree with you, that if Snape turns him in, it would blow his cover, BUT it does not mean that everybody has to KNOW that Snape initiated that. I think Order could have arranged a little kidnapping from Spinner's End, if they wanted to, no? I am not so sure that Snape informed DD about that little development, but plot wise yes, I am sure JKR has a part for Peter to play at the end. Potioncat: I'm reasonably certain > Snape does not want Pettigrew at Spinner's End. Alla: Because you think Voldie sent Peter to spy on Snape? I suppose. BUT if Snape considers Peter's presence to be sort of " massage of his ego", I think he could be pleased at such development Isn't it nice to have one of his school enemies as his servant, basically as his slave? :-) Potioncat: > What I'd like to know, is how it was that Black was cleared and his > will was read within weeks of his death? What evidence was presented > that couldn't have been presented before?: Alla: Ooooo, GREAT QUESTION. I have no idea. Maybe they got Bella's wand and deduced that since DE attacked Sirius he must be innocent. No, this is lame :-) I want to know it too. Miguel Delgado wrote: > To all Snape haters: > > It seems to me that Severus is one of the most interesting and human > characters in the series. Most others are one dimensional, plain- all- > good-or-all-bad people. But Severus, aha, Severus is just like you > and me, a slug, a saint, a traitor twice, trice. Alla: Ummm, as the series stand now I can name several characters which I consider to be more complex than Snape. After spending whole OOP in Harry's head, I believe that he is just as complex as Snape, if not more complex. See, I consider the character to be complex if even when we know his motivations, his actions and reactions are not predictable to the reader. I respect your opinion that Snape is the most complex character. I see Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, Sirius also as very complex ones. Miguel: > Even when JKR has put many, many clues on Severus innocence, final > redemption and utter salvation, the All-Bad-Snape haters blindly > pretend not to listen, very much a la' Harry's. Alla: Erm... NO, I just interpret those clues as proof of Snape guilt, NOT his innocence. Miguel: > But at the end, finally freed of Dumbledore's restrains and instead > of releasing all the hatred, he gives Harry a last immensely > important lesson on Occlumensy. Alla: OR Snape is gloating at Harry. I think my interpretation is as valid as yours. :-) I happen to think that many motivations of the characters will turn out to be SIMPLER than we think in the end, actually. Just my opinion of course, Alla From shgupta83 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 17:12:49 2005 From: shgupta83 at yahoo.com (shgupta83) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:12:49 -0000 Subject: What will happen to the Order Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137597 Given that Dumbledore is truly dead (which I believe he is), what do you guys think will happen to the Order. Without Dumbledore's leadership, I can see it completely dissolving. There are other members in the Order that might be qualified decision makers, i.e McGonagall, but no one commands the respect and attention that Dumbledore did. Often times throughout the books people who are now members of the Order would follow Dumbledore's instructions, even if they werent quite sure what they were doing, but did so anyway because they knew Dumbledore was usually never wrong. Now that he is dead however, I can't see Mad Eye for example following instructions from McGonagall or Lupin, and vice versa. Obviously no one will know what to do and I can see a lot of infighting within the Order. I think all the members of the Order would gladly assist Harry as he needs it in book 7, but he does seem to be at an even bigger disadvantage now that his support group (the order) will be in chaos. Shgupta From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Aug 14 17:32:56 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:32:56 -0000 Subject: Saving Harry was Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137598 > > Pippin: > > > What if Harry wins with assistance that only he could have won? You > > know, Frodo saved by Gollum, Luke saved by Vader, that kind of > thing. > > First of all, I think a huge percentage of her readers would roll > their eyes and say "So you never finished LotR, huh, Jo? So you > aren't doing Star Wars? Yeah, right." Pippin: That percentage of readers will be revealing their ignorance of chivalric legends, from which all three works are derived. Lancelot could be considered the ancestor of all traitorous comrades who eventually come to the kingdom's aid. TH White even conceived him as being ugly and sadistic, though there's no basis for that in Mallory. Lupinlore: Second, how would winning Snape's help be something "only Harry could do" if Snape is in fact super spy? Presumably Snape would help any member of team Dumbledore out to bring down Voldemort. Pippin: Harry is Snape's sole accuser and only he can withdraw the charge of murder. No matter what he knows, Snape cannot bring aid to the Order while Harry and everyone else still believes he is false. Dumbledore is clear that people are to be judged by their choices, and by the honest intent of those choices, not the results, since few can foretell the consequences of their actions. Harry does not know what Snape's choices on the Tower were, or what he intended by them. He has made assumptions based on hatred, which is not the power that Voldemort knows not. When he abandons hate, perhaps he will gain more insight into what happened. Pippin From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 14 17:37:03 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:37:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FF813F.80901@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137599 eggplant107 wrote: > "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > > > He'd [Snape] have had to kill Draco, too. > > I wouldn't mind that much, certainly better that Draco assume room > temperature than Dumbledore, but unfortunately Snape made that stupid > Unbreakable Vow, something imposable to understand if he's really a > good guy. Even so Snape could have faked Draco's death and he could > have gone into hiding. Dumbledore had nearly convinced Draco to do it > even when the plan was working, if it was clear the plan had failed > I'm sure he'd cooperate; and Voldemort wouldn't be surprised, he > expected Draco to die. eggplant Kathy writes: So, you would have Snape kill Amycus, while the rest stand by with their mouths hanging open, then Greyback, then Alecto, who is also still frozen in shock, then the last DE, and then Draco, who probably figures he's next. Not a counter-curse has been fired in self-defense, which is a good thing, because flying curses and hexes might have hit Harry and made the whole tower scene moot. Having saved the day, Snape goes to Dumbledore and discovers that he is also dead as a nit, and now he will spend the next several months in Azkaban explaining why he was discovered surrounded by four dead DE and a junior DE and Harry Potter, the-boy-who-is-a-video-camera-for-Voldemort, and Dumbledore. Meanwhile, Voldemort takes over the world. The only cost to Voldemort would be six more DE. > > A well placed, well worded, message > > from Snape arriving for McGonagall > > in her headmistresses office, with > > Dumbledore's portrait there to confirm > > what Snape is saying > > Well worded? There are no noises Snape could make with his mouth that > could EVER make me forgive what he did or make me trust him for one > instant. None, zero. eggplant Kathy writes: I'm sure that JKR will find a way for Snape to contact someone a little more receptive than you. If not, I can see some serious plot holes looming in book 7. KJ From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Sun Aug 14 17:51:03 2005 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:51:03 +0100 Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux - Lily, DD, Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: <1123956470.2194.46257.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137600 Wow, Del, I absolutely love this theory. Excellent post. Would just like to add a couple of points to your ideas (very snipped): > From: "delwynmarch" > Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux - Lily, DD, Harry's eyes > > 3. The question of course then becomes: what did DD choose as his > Opposite of a Horcrux? Harry? Draco? Fawkes? Something else? > Personally, I would go for Harry, because Harry *needs* it more than > anyone else. Love this idea, and I think it could explain why DD immobilised Harry, which is something I've never felt comfortable with. Perhaps he needed Harry to be close by, and keep still, in order to place the part of his soul within him. > > As for why Lily's eyes would have been transplanted unto her son, this > could be a side effect of the creation of the Opposite of a Horcrux. > We know that losing parts of his soul modified LV's appearance, as > though by losing parts of his soul he also lost part of his physical > substance. Could the opposite be true also? By transferring a part of > her soul into Harry, or an imprint of it, did Lily also transfer a > part of her physical substance into him - her eyes? And, of course, the eyes are often referred to as "the window of the soul" so this would fit in well with Harry's eyes showing a part of Lily's soul. > > And if so, what did DD transfer into Harry? It can't be anything > obvious, because nobody, not even Harry himself, noticed anything > different about his body, his substance. So what could it be? Maybe it > is a special power that Harry will discover when he needs it? Maybe > Legilimency and/or Occlumency? Or something else entirely? Or will > Harry someday notice how strangely shaped his new scar on his knee is > :-) ? > Hopefully he transferred some of his skills and his own personal knowledge of LV. At the cave, DD was able to tell where LV's magic had been performed - he was able to sense some trace of it. This would be an extremely useful gift to pass on to Harry. Again, thanks for the excellent post - really got me thinking! Beth From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 17:57:41 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:41 -0000 Subject: Saving Harry was Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > That percentage of readers will be revealing their ignorance of > chivalric legends, from which all three works are derived. > Lancelot could be considered the ancestor of all > traitorous comrades who eventually come to the kingdom's aid. > TH White even conceived him as being ugly and sadistic, though > there's no basis for that in Mallory. This assumes, of course, that JKR is interested in such strict correspondences. The way it's put here smacks of far too much Joseph Campbell structuralism for my taste--by which I mean that everything is reduced down to the points where things correspond, and everything that doesn't match (and is usually what makes the milieu of each story different and meaningful) is elided out. 'Derived' in this case seems, IMO, so vague as to be almost meaningless. Gollum is an originally innocent character warped by an outside evil, but also by his own avarice, who does the good deed out of the wrong motivation, almost out of accident. Vader is a (now even more revealed) fallen character who has retained touches of humanity, and acts to redeem his blood kin. Neither of them kept a live, solid, in- discussion connection with the good side, as it seems your Snapetheory postulates. Aside from the "evildoer does good" aspect, I don't see much deeper linkage between those characters, and a whole lot of difference because of context. I don't think we can say for certain that JKR is following that model with Snape at all; but alert readers of pop culture are, as Lupinlore mentioned, certainly alive to similarities (as is JKR, the whole "you all are thinking too much Star Wars"). But given that Rowling's cosmology is not that of Lucas and not that of Tolkien (mercifully), why are we assuming that an action similar on the surface would *mean* the same thing at all? -Nora professionally loathes Hero With A Thousand Faces, to be honest From kelryn at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 17:49:56 2005 From: kelryn at hotmail.com (tokaammich) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:49:56 -0000 Subject: DD and RAB/horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137602 > > Finwitch: > > Well - the RAB I believe, was Regulus A Black, Sirius' brother. I > believe RAB managed to send the real horxrux to Sirius before he > died. (he was expecting to be dead, was he not?) That means that this > horcrux is probably in vault 711... I think that Regulus Black did find the horcrux and sent it to Sirius. But this is not in the vault. It was the locket they found when cleaning out the cabinet in OoP. As far as the potion DD drank at the sight of the fake horcrux...I think he put it there himself. I think he knew going in it was not the real thing. But would be able to show Harry what he may come up against in the future. And since he could plant the potion (not poison) himself it was meant to help heal him. Something to do with the pheonix. He drank it, had to die and then could come back healed and stronger to fight again. I also think Snape had something to do with making this potion. Because I'm not convinced he is totally a bad guy. Kelryn From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 18:04:03 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:04:03 -0000 Subject: Plot holes (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <42FF813F.80901@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > Kathy writes: > I'm sure that JKR will find a way for Snape to contact someone a > little more receptive than you. If not, I can see some serious plot > holes looming in book 7. Do tell what plot holes would ensure from this: I'm interested, as I'm thinking of ways for Snape to make contact: 1. Portrait ex machina: DD's portrait tells all. Well, we know that portraits are not equivalent to people, but we don't know the extent of the knowledge of the portrait. It seems entirely too easy to have things resolved in that manner; one wonders why the portrait wasn't already babbling to McGonagall, who would presumably be more receptive. 2. Patronus contact: also possible. While a Patronus is an anti-Dark Magic charm, I don't think it's ever been stated that one must be of a certain 'alignment' to be able to cast one, so it's probably not an indicator in and of itself. 3. Pensieve memories: also possible, but again, seems a little too easy to my sense of ratcheting tension. The astute reader will note that if he is following a theory whereby it is essential that Snape is deep undercover and the Order cannot know his genuine loyalties (because that would compromise Snape's position with Voldemort--bad for Snape if the Order is overheard going "Oh, yeah, and it seems that Snape really is on our side--the Pensieve confirmed it"), all these ideas are bunk anyways. There's always the eminently open option that Snape is *not* interested in making contact with the Order, which solves this problem. So, what *would* the plot holes be? -Nora is genuinely curious here, from a position on the fence From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 18:07:57 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:07:57 -0000 Subject: Why Lily didn't have to die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137604 I am beginning to think that Lily did not have to die because she was a potions master in the same class as Flamel. Maybe LV had a lab set up with Snape and he wanted/needed someone else to help with the experiments. This is sort of like RL when the enemy kidnaps the best scientist to make the better weapon. In this case LV may have wanted them to work on making the philosopher's stone. He could then use that as a the ultimate Horcrox. What do you all think? Tonks_op From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 18:18:41 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:18:41 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff and DE question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137605 Aussie wrote: > The Death Eaters are a group supporting an English Dark Wizard. So what is a Bulgarian doing in the Death Eaters? > > If he was the headmaster of an ancient wizarding school, reknown for it's Dark Arts, then I immagine he is MUCH older than Snape and maybe older than Riddle too. > > So does anyone know when he joined LV? > > Was it overseas? > > If he was in Drumstrang when he met LV, could a Horcrux be hiding > there? > -aussie- I think the Horcrux hidden in Durmstrang is a great idea. Maybe the secret passage between the two schools (under the lake) will come into play in HBP (as will Viktor Kru,, though he's notw too old to be a Durmstrang student). As for Karkaroff's age, his hair is black in the Pensieve scene when he betrays the other Death Eaters, including Snape. It's as white as Dumbledore's when he's at Hogwarts with his students. This suggests to me that he's in his thirties or forties in his trial scene and his fifties or sixties in the main GoF story. Certainly he's considerably older than Snape and could be the same age as Voldemort (about 68 in GoF). If so, Karkaroff could be one of the original Death Eaters. The fact that he has an Eastern European name doesn't necessarily prevent him from being English. Quite possibly he attended Hogwarts with Tom Riddle like Lestrange Sr. (father of Rodolphus and Rabastan), who also has a foreign (French) name. And there's also Antonin Dolohov, who has a Russian(?) name but seems to be another of the original Death Eaters. He's not mentioned as part of the Slytherin gang from Snape's time, so I suspect he's older, like Nott (Theo's aging father) and the white-haired Karkaroff. (Or, like the Lestrange brothers, he could be the son of an original Death Eater.) Anyway, to summarize, I think Karkaroff is English despite his name but had ties to Durmstrang, perhaps through his father and that he's in his fifties or more likely sixties in GoF. It's possible that he (and Dolohov) had connections to Grindelwald that we'll discover in Book 7. Voldemort could have placed one of the Horcruxes in his keeping (without revealing that it was a Horcrus), just as he entrusted the diary to Lucius Malfoy. That could be one reason why Voldemort had him killed rather than merely punishing him for his cowardice as he stated he would do in the graveyard scene. At any rate, it's a plausible idea and fits nicely with the secret passage between Hogwarts and Durmstrang. Carol From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 14 18:23:50 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:23:50 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Serius Black (was Re: DD is Dead/Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > What I'd like to know, is how it was that Black was cleared and his > will was read within weeks of his death? What evidence was presented > that couldn't have been presented before? Marianne: I think this not important, in JKR's mind. The neat tying up of all untied Sirius threads (Will, estate, dispostion of Kreacher, ownership of 12 Grimmauld Place, knowledge of MoM officials of Sirius' presence at the battle in the Dept of Mysteries, whether or not his name is cleared) were things that were lingering out there, but are no longer germane to the course of the story. So, they were dealt with efficiently and with a minimum of story space. It was chiefly these things with regards to Sirius that made me think, as I've state before, that JKR had a mental checklist of things she wanted to deal with and get out of the way in HBP. Which is not to say that I find this particularly satisfying. We know that DD spent half an hour with Fudge after the battle in the Dept. of Mysteries at the end of OoP. To our knowledge, he still had no evidence to prove Sirius' innocence. I guess that since DD was proven irrefutably right about Voldemort's return, then Fudge was willing to believe anything nice he said about a fugitive mass murderer. Fudge makes mention in the first chapter of HBP that there will be an inquiry into the fact that Sirius was murdered inside the Ministry. Did that ever take place, or was Fudge simply making bureaucratic noises? I can certainly see someone like Fudge wanting as little publicity as possible being paid to the fact that the Ministry had wrongly imprisoned someone for 12 years. But, you'd think that somewhere along the line Harry might have wanted that message to be mentioned publicly at least once. IIRC, we have no evidence that Harry even knows the Minister has admitted the government's error. Marianne, still liking HBP, if dissatisfied with certain specifics From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 18:43:41 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:43:41 -0000 Subject: Draco and the imperius In-Reply-To: <005601c5a0b2$159b2880$b8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137607 Marianne S: Am I the only one that does believe it was not Snape or any other DE but Draco himself who cast the Imperius curse on Rosmerta? We know he was going to use the Cruciatus curse against Harry in the bathroom. So, he's not against using the Unforgiveable curses. As long as his mission is to kill Dumbledore, what's a little Imperius to get to his goal? Draco is obviously more concerned about L.V.'s reaction to what he does than he is about breaking any ministry laws. As far as Draco's ability to perform the curse, I imagine he wouldn't be able to do it against a particularly strong witch or wizard, but against Rosmerta... I don't think she'd be that difficult a target, based on how she's been written. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 14 18:49:02 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:49:02 -0000 Subject: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137608 Dumbledore tells Harry in the Horcrux chapter: "I have traveled widely, visiting those places he once knew. I stumbled across the ring hidden in the ruin of the Gaunts' house...He hid it....never guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or that I might be keeping an eye open for traces of magical concealment." (p. 504, US). I'm making a guess here that Dumbledore also visited the Riddle House/graveyard at the same time, looking for 'magical concealment' and found none. The orphange too, I think, because not finding signs of concealment at the orphanage probably led Dumbledore to remember the cave, a site where Riddle probably performed somewhat complex magic for his age. Mrs. Cole was likely dead, but Amy Benson and/or Dennis Bishop might have been convinced to tell the location of the cave to Dumbledore. So say the Riddle House and the orphanage are out, and the Gaunt House provided the ring, but offers no more clues. Our knowledge of other possibilities is slim, as Dumbledore said, "If it was difficult to find evidence about the boy Riddle, it has been almost impossible to find anyone prepared to reminisce about the man Voldemort. In fact, I doubt whether a soul alive....could give us a full account of his life since he left Hogwarts." (chap. 20, p. 430, US): What are there now, two more Horcruxes to find? That's assuming the locket at 12GP is a Horcrux, and Nagini as well. So, two down, two located but not destroyed, and two missing. 1) Hogwarts--very likely, given the significance to Riddle. 2) Borgin and Burkes--maybe. Would have to be concealed pretty well not to get sold! 3) Azkaban--It might be interesting for Harry to see Azkaban before the series is over. A Horcrux would be well-proteced there. Possible. 4) Godric's Hollow--unlikely (in my mind). The only significance to Voldemort was Harry; he would not hide a Horcrux at GH before the night he went to kill the Potters. I'm not a Harry-as-Horcrux believer. ;) 5) Hepzibah Smith's house--No. Not safe enough, not significant enough. Those are the only places we really know Voldemort visited or had significance to him. Somewhere in Albania is possible, or aussie/justcarol mentioned Durmstrang in post #137605 as I'm writing this. But Harry is running out of time and pages, so that might be a time-consuming diversion. Jen, wondering if Harry will be able to learn the art of noticing magical concealment or if someone will do it for him? From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 19:09:27 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:09:27 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: <42FF813F.80901@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137609 Kathryn Jones wrote: > So, you would have Snape kill Amycus, > while the rest stand by with their > mouths hanging open, then Greyback, > then Alecto, who is also still frozen > in shock, then the last DE, and then Draco Yes, that is exactly what I would have Snape do. After Dumbledore's death Harry chased the Death Eaters and defeated several of them one on one, I have no doubt when he was healthy Dumbledore could have taken on all of them at once and I think Snape could too. You will note that when Snape entered the room all the other Death Eaters seemed terrified with him, and although Harry had little difficulty dealing with the other Death Eaters he had much more trouble with Snape. I think only Dumbledore and Voldemort were more powerful than Snape, so when he found one of those wizards without a wand and in a weakened state he did not hesitate for one split second to kill him. > I'm sure that JKR will find a way for > Snape to contact someone a little > more receptive than you. If not, I > can see some serious plot holes > looming in book 7. I never liked Snape and was always a bit mystified why so many felt that deep down he's really just a sweetheart, but before HBP JKR could perhaps morphed him into a good guy, or at least into a less despicable character; but now JKR has burned her bridges as far as Snape is concerned. After what we saw in HBP if she tries to turn Snape into a good guy the last book in the Potter series will be a disaster because killing Dumbledore is quite simply unforgivable. Eggplant From muellem at bc.edu Sun Aug 14 19:26:42 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:26:42 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Yes, that is exactly what I would have Snape do. After Dumbledore's > death Harry chased the Death Eaters and defeated several of them one > on one, I have no doubt when he was healthy Dumbledore could have > taken on all of them at once and I think Snape could too. You will > note that when Snape entered the room all the other Death Eaters > seemed terrified with him, and although Harry had little difficulty > dealing with the other Death Eaters he had much more trouble with > Snape. the big question is....could DD ever be healthy again? And yes, the other DE's were terrified of Snape. I think Snape could have taken out DD at any time during the 16 years at Hogwarts if he wanted to. Especially since DD trusted him so much - it would have been easy. That is why this act seems too *simple* to just show that Snape is EVIL. But it could be just that. However, JKR stated books 6 & 7 are actually one book in two parts. As another poster pointed out, in the beginning, Harry *seems* to know who is evil & bad, but by the end, he is proven wrong about his perceptions. I think this is the case here. Snape *seems* to have doublecrossed DD and gone back to Voldemort as a DE - in Harry's eyes. And it has been shown that Harry has always been wrong about Snape, so far. I can think of no reason why he should be right in this instance. DD didn't tell Harry everything - and that includes DD's business with Snape. > I never liked Snape and was always a bit mystified why so many felt > that deep down he's really just a sweetheart, I don't think ANYONE thinks or even stated that Snape was a sweetheart, deep down inside. I think we can all agree that he is a sadistic bastard. Jeez..... I don't know where you are getting the impression that the folks that believe in Good!Snape think he is a big, fluffy bunny under that greasy exterior - LOL. >but before HBP JKR could > perhaps morphed him into a good guy, or at least into a less > despicable character; but now JKR has burned her bridges as far as > Snape is concerned. After what we saw in HBP if she tries to turn > Snape into a good guy the last book in the Potter series will be a > disaster because killing Dumbledore is quite simply unforgivable. > Deep-undercover spies are often depicted as *bad* or not good. But they DO work for the good team. I believe that is Snape - he isn't a good man, but he does work for the good team. That is his strength. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that Snape will turn into a Dumbledore-like character in book 7 - in fact, I believe Snape will die in book 7 - but in a martyr-like way - saving either Draco or paving the way for Harry to defeat Voldemort. colebiancardi From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 19:30:39 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:30:39 -0000 Subject: Snape as the dark young man (Was: Trelawney's part in HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137612 > Ceridwen now: > Can anyone point me to the first reading, where Trelawney is turning > over the hand of spades? The reason I want to > know is, does anyone else think the 'Knave of Spades' might refer to > Snape? He has dark hair and eyes, is young compared to Dumbledore, > is possibly troubled, and he dislikes Trelawney. What else was in > that reading? Carol responds: I thought the passage was in chapter 25, "The Seer Overheard," but I can't find it, either. It must be earlier, probably right before one of Harry's visits to Dumbledore's office. Anyone? As for your question about Snape being the young man referred to by the Tarot card, that was my immediate reaction, too, except that I thought the qustioner was Dumbledore. Snape is dark (except for his pale/sallow complexion) and wears black robes, and he's quite young compared with Trelawney (much less Dumbledore). He is certainly "troubled," having placed himself (and Dumbledore) in a terrible predicament by taking the Unbreakable Vow. Harry, in contrast, is a boy, not a young man, and only his hair is dark. And he certainly doesn't dislike his questioner if the questioner is Dumbledore. He isn't really "questioned" by Snape, only ordered to bring his schoolbooks after Snape's Legilimency reveals that Harry has the HBP's potion book. Harry isn't really "troubled" in HBP, at least no more than he usually is. He's quite happy in comparison with his angry OoP persona. For all these reasons, I think the young man is Snape, not Harry. My problem with this reading is the suggestion that Snape doesn't like Dumbledore (assuming that DD is the "questioner"). If this reading is correct, then Snape is evil, and I don't think he is (as I've already made clear in numerous posts so I won't repeat myself here). For that reason, I want to explore the possibility of an alternate reading, with Snape as the young man but someone other than DD as the questioner. For one thing, we don't really see DD questioning Snape. It appears from GoF and OoP that Snape simply reports to him without necessarily being questioned by him. Even the snippet of an argument in the forest is Snape objecting to something and DD telling Snape what to do, not asking him questions. (He does ask *Harry* questions but Harry doesn't dislike him, so that can't be what the card means.) Your suggestion that the questioner is Trelawney and that Snape (like McGonagall) dislikes her would get around that difficulty, but I'm not sure it's the answer. For one thing, we've never seen Snape reacting directly to Trelawney, IIRC. Another possibility is that the questioner is Voldemort, who certainly *has* questioned Snape in the past (end of GoF). We see Snape's answers to LV's questions (a nice mixture of truths, half-truths, and lies) in "Spinner's End." Since Snape is a double agent supposedly loyal to LV, it's quite likely that LV has questioned him much more recently (and placed Wormtail with him to spy on him while he's at Spinner's End for the summer). Or Bellatrix could be the questioner, and it's quite clear that he doesn't like her. At any rate, I do think that we're supposed to assume (correctly) that the young man is Snape but that the card is a red herring of sorts--we only think that the questioner Snape dislikes is Dumbledore because, like Harry throughout all the books, we have only appearances to base our judgment on, and appearances point to Snape as disloyal to Dumbledore. We are not privy to Snape's thoughts, but we can at least be more objective than Harry and explore other possibilities. BTW, everyone keeps talking about how right Harry is in this book. However, he's wrong about the HBP and wrong (as Hermione points out) about the cursed necklace being the thing that Draco doesn't want to carry from Borgin and Burkes). Being (essentially) right about Draco doesn't necessarily make him right about Snape. And Ron, who also hates Snape and is seldom right about anything, now owes his life to Snape, without whom Harry would never have known about bezoars. Carol From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 19:30:40 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:30:40 -0000 Subject: Why Lily didn't have to die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137613 Tonks_op: I am beginning to think that Lily did not have to die because she was a potions master in the same class as Flamel. Maybe LV had a lab set up with Snape and he wanted/needed someone else to help with the experiments. This is sort of like RL when the enemy kidnaps the best scientist to make the better weapon. In this case LV may have wanted them to work on making the philosopher's stone. He could then use that as a the ultimate Horcrox. What do you all think? Marianne S: I think that's an astute theory/analogy. I wonder if it even has anything to do with the "three times" Harry's parents had defied Voldemort. I believe that Snape is perfectly aware of Lily's potion skills and would be more likely to use that as reasoning to Voldemort to still spare Lily's life, because I believe Snape would know that Voldemort wouldn't have been swayed by whatever love Snape had for Lily. Consequently, even though Snape knows that L.V. believes Love is a useless emotion, it is probably his feelings for Lily and anger at Voldemort that caused him to have the iron-clad remorse. I wonder, however, about using a philosopher's stone, or anything else that would have to be in use, as a horcrux. One has to get an "elixer of life" from the stone which means it would have to be touched. Does that offer enough protection of a horcrux to satisfy Voldemort? This makes me wonder about Nagini. We know Dumbledore believes her to be a horcrux, but Wormtail also has to "milk" her venom during GoF. Would L.V. have made her a horcrux after that fact? Can a horcrux be a horcrux and still do its other "duties" (such as Nagini attacking Arthur Weasley or can one drink from a cup in which there is a Horcrux). We know that Ginny couldn't write in the diary without being possessed by it, so maybe the poisonous nature of Nagini is that horcrux's own protection. Am I writing in circles? Marianne S From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Aug 14 19:46:35 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:46:35 -0000 Subject: Snape as the dark young man (Was: Trelawney's part in HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Ceridwen now: > > Can anyone point me to the first reading, where Trelawney is turning > > over the hand of spades? Carol: > I thought the passage was in chapter 25, "The Seer Overheard," but I > can't find it, either. It must be earlier, probably right before one > of Harry's visits to Dumbledore's office. Anyone? Geoff: You may have missed my reply 137541.... The reference is: HBP "The House of Gaunt" p.185 UK edition From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 20:18:02 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:18:02 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137615 Pat wrote: > > > I can see that his [Snape's] Boggart would give things away, but what could his Patronus be that would give things away? He's described as bat-like, so I'd guess his is a bat. > Cheryl responded: > He is also described as moving like a spider (in the Pensieve scene, I think), the title of Chapter 2 in Spinner's End, and then there is the sphinx riddle in GOF about the spy-der, and Snape is obviously a > spy...maybe a Spider patronus? > > Cheryl Carol responds: Would the other Order members have trusted someone whose protective spirit (Patronus) was a spider or any other poisonous or injurious animal associated with evil? I can't think of any animal that would suit Snape and still indicate to the Order member (before DD's death) that Snape was on their side. It's just possible that his Patronus is not an animal. We've only seen animal Patroni but that doesn't mean a Patronus *has* to take animal form. (Absence of evidence is not proof.) I see no reason why it can't be a person. Suppose that Snape's Patronus turns out to be Dumbledore? Think how much *that* would give away, especially if he's still able to cast it after killing Dumbledore (or sending him to his death in a fall from the tower using a faked AK, which amounts to the same thing but eliminates the corrupting influence of the AK in and of itself. And maybe unwilling murder doesn't split the soul, or the soul can be healed by an act of redemption). A Patronus is white magic. The fact that Snape can (or could) cast one suggests to me that he really is on the side of good--or was until he fell under the curse of the DADA position and made the Unbreakable Vow. If he can still cast it and still use it to send messages to the Order, the members will understand that he is still an Order member and not a DE (the same message he would convey through a faked AK). Or Lupin, himself something of a DADA expert, will understand). A Patronus, unlike an AK, can't be faked. At any rate, I think we'll see Snape's Patronus in Book 7 and that it will reveal that he is still, appearances to the contrary, Dumbledore's man. It won't be a Phoenix becaus that was DD's and each Patronus is unique, but IMO it will somehow be associated with Dumbledore. At any rate, I can't conceive of an evil Patronus. It's a contradiction in terms. I just thought of a delightful possibility. What if Snape's Patronus is a dumbledore (bumblebee)? Carol From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 20:29:46 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:29:46 -0000 Subject: Snape as the dark young man (Was: Trelawney's part in HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > As for your question about Snape being the young man referred to by > the Tarot card, that was my immediate reaction, too, except that I > thought the qustioner was Dumbledore. Snape is dark (except for his > pale/sallow complexion) and wears black robes, and he's quite young > compared with Trelawney (much less Dumbledore). He is certainly > "troubled," having placed himself (and Dumbledore) in a terrible > predicament by taking the Unbreakable Vow. Ceridwen now: Geoff Bannister answered the question about where it is, as did someone else (in the chapter called 'House of Gaunt', page 195 US edition). Thanks, Geoff and other! I think the 'questioner' in question is the person the reading is being done for. Also known as the 'querant'. If Trelawney's reading cards by herself in the halls, she's reading them for herself, the questioner. She even stops after her reading (Conflict... ill omen... violence... dark young man...), says that can't be right, reshuffles the cards, and starts over. If so, then the 'dark young man, possibly troubled, who dislikes the questioner' (reads like instructions from a book, that 'who dislikes the questioner' part), would be a troubled, dark young man who dislikes Trelawney. And, it would be a very unfriendly thing for Snape, or anyone else, to get Trelawney tossed out of Hogwarts after what Dumbledore says about danger awaiting her if she left. Killing Dumbledore, who was her protector, could do just that. I doubt if Snape would really care. I'm not into ESE!Snape, but evil and uncaring about others' feelings, most likely, if he doesn't care about them. Probably why I can't accept the reason Dumbledore gave for trusting Snape. It doesn't sound like him. Remourseful? Hm, maybe. But not quite to the level of such trust that he's kept in a school full of children. Interesting, though, about all the people who might or might not have questioned Snape throughout the books. Considering the amount of posts he generates, it might not be a bad idea to go back over all of that! Ceridwen. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 20:38:09 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:38:09 -0000 Subject: Why Lily didn't have to die. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137617 We know that Lilly didn't go out with James until the 7th year so in the 6th she must have been going out with somebody else. Snape and Lilly must have been in the same potions class in their 6th and the term "Half Blood Prince" sounds like a pet nickname a girl might give her boyfriend. Perhaps Lilly was the real potions genius and Snape was flunking out so Lilly wrote all that stuff in Snape's book to help him, Hermione did say it looked like a girl's writing and the notes never said "I am the Half Blood Prince" it said "This book is the property of the Half Blood Prince". And perhaps that's why Lilly didn't have to die, Voldemort knew Snape still had feelings for Lilly so as a favor to his right hand man he was going to let her live, but she just wouldn't stop protecting Harry. Eggplant From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 14 20:55:52 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:55:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plot holes (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FFAFD8.5090004@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137618 nrenka wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > > Kathy writes: > > I'm sure that JKR will find a way for Snape to contact someone a > > little more receptive than you. If not, I can see some serious plot > > holes looming in book 7. > > Do tell what plot holes would ensure from this: I'm interested, as I'm > thinking of ways for Snape to make contact: nrenka Kathy writes: Please have patience because this is difficult to work backwards on pure plot points as opposed to a character or personality basis. These ponts are just how it seems to me. 1. The books seem to be about good versus evil and definitive choices as opposed to forced choices or unknowing choices. We have seen documentation of both. We see Draco unable to make a definitive choice because of circumstance. We see Lily making a definitive choice to give her life for Harry. We see Voldemort making a definitive choice to murder to make himself immortal. We have not seen Harry in the position of having to make a definitive choice, knowing all of the circumstances and repercussions. That is still coming. Snape may have made a definitive choice for good or evil but we have not been allowed to see for certain which way he chose. That is still coming. If Snape has chosen evil, it adds nothing to the plot, other than Harry will have to go through Snape to get to Voldemort. I don't feel as though this is what JKR is aming for. If Snape has definitively chosen good, or redemption, then he can be used to further the plot in many ways, poisoning Nagini, weakening Voldemort, passing information, setting up circumstances for the Death Eaters to fail in whatever Voldemort has set them to do, backing up Harry in the final confrontation, etc. 2. The difficulty in trying to determine what people are really like seems to be central to the books as well. We all liked Moody but the Moody we really liked was Crouch. The real Moody is a bit mental. We all love Dumbledore, but he has changed from the sweet old Headmaster to a true player. He has his own agenda, keeping in mind that he told Harry that he had plans made but that he had made the foolish mistake of caring about Harry too much. Lupin is a favourite character, but he is weak. He does no harm, but probably can not be counted on to truly take a stand. Snape is mean, miserable, unattractive, and nobody likes him, but he has directly saved Harry's life, and Dumbledore's life. This would seem to fit with JKR's message. To simply turn him evil at this point might validate Harry's feelings, but just validating Harry's feelings adds nothing to the plot or the message. 3. Personal sacrifice is another issue central to the books. Lily sacrificed her life for Harry. Dumbledore sacrificed his life by drinking a potion that he believed would kill him to destroy another horcrux. I believe that he demanded that Harry get Snape in order to have, what he believed was a horcrux, destroyed. He knew he was dying and he needed the horcrux dealt with because he knew he would not be able to do it himself. Ron willingly sacrificed himself in the chess game to enable Harry to protect the stone. Snape has apparently given up fifteen years of his life to Dumbledore so far. At the end of HBP he has given up any hope of a future, any possible respect, even if vindicated by Dumbledore somehow, and I expect his life in the satisfaction of the life debt that he owed James. His death in the service of Voldemort would not fit in with the theme of sacrifice that JKR has presented. 4. Redemption is another interesting issue. Will Pettigrew be redeemed in the end? Where is that redemption owed? Can he pay Harry back for being directly responsible for the murder of James and Lily? Will anything he does in book 7 redeem him in the eyes of the WW for returning Voldemort to a body? Will Draco, at some point in time, earn redemption for his part in Dumbledore's death, or will he ever understand that repayment is called for? We understand that redemption is not an option for Voldemort. Complete eradication from the WW is the only option presented for him. Snape is the only character specifically mentioned in the books who feels genuine remorse for an action. Dumbledore is convinced of this. There has to be some plot line in the next book that allows this redemption and Harry's understanding of it. For what it's worth. KJ From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 21:00:48 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:00:48 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137619 "colebiancardi" wrote: > I think Snape could have taken out > DD at any time during the 16 years > at Hogwarts if he wanted to. Battle the most powerful wizard in the world and then try to get out of a castle jam packed with other very powerful wizards and do it without aperation? I wouldn't want to attempt it. It would take a very brave man to try such a thing, and Snape after all is not a Gryffindor. Better to wait until Dumbledore is old sick and without a wand. Eggplant From nicholas at adelanta.co.uk Sun Aug 14 18:48:55 2005 From: nicholas at adelanta.co.uk (nicholas) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:48:55 +0100 Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux; Harry's protection In-Reply-To: <1123956470.2194.46257.m29@yahoogroups.com> References: <1123956470.2194.46257.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137620 I enjoyed your post, Del, and had been thinking roughly along the same lines. However, I believe that Dumbledore's death created protection for Harry, not Malfoy. A point which was mentioned twice in the book but never followed through on, is that Harry's protection from his mother is about to expire. Isn't this rather key? Is Harry to be left defenceless after his seventeenth birthday? My conclusion is that Dumbledore set up his own death as the required sacrifice to create continued protection for Harry into adulthood. Cheers, Nicholas From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 21:09:37 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:09:37 -0000 Subject: Hating someone Vs wanting them dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137621 Nickel wrote: > I see similarities in this regard between Harry and Draco. They both > hate each other. However, we saw the reaction of Harry after he used > Sectumsempra on Draco - he certainly did not want Draco dead. We > also now know that Draco isn't as evil as he would like people to > believe. This makes me wonder, will there be a situation in Book 7 > where Draco sees that Harry is about to be killed and, despite the > fact that he hates Harry, he tries to do something to stop him being > killed? zgirnius: Or maybe Draco's situation came first... After all, in the train scene where Draco catched Harry spying on him, Draco immobilized Harry. He could have done anything he liked to Harry at this point, in particular, he coul dhave killed him, noone was there to see. But Draco broke his nose and left him there. Not exactly a nice thing to do, but it coul dhave been worse... From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Aug 14 21:20:46 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:20:46 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137622 Eggplant: > Battle the most powerful wizard in the world and then try to get out of a castle jam packed with other very powerful wizards and do it without aperation? I wouldn't want to attempt it. It would take a very brave man to try such a thing, and Snape after all is not a Gryffindor. Better to wait until Dumbledore is old sick and without a wand. HBP-US ch 23 p 503 "Had it not been --forgive me the lack of seemly modesty--for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale." ---- "Desperately injured" If Snape is evil, if he wanted Dumbledore dead, why didn't he just let him die? Who would have been the wiser if he had made a seemingly valient attempt to cure Dumbledore and failed? Or slipped him a healing potion that wasn't? Pippin From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 14 21:43:47 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:43:47 -0000 Subject: Plot holes. (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <42FFAFD8.5090004@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137623 Kathryn Jones wrote: > If Snape has chosen evil If? If?!! Snape murdered Dumbledore, what more needs to be said? > it adds nothing to the plot, > other than Harry will have to > go through Snape to get to Voldemort. At this point it may be that Harry goes through Voldemort to get to the number one villain of the Potter saga, Snape. I have nothing against redemption, it can sometimes work as a literary device but every bad guy can't get redeemed, that would be ridiculous. Draco might get redeemed, Kreature might get redeemed, it's a long shot but perhaps even Wormtail might get redeemed, however after HBP Snape has about as much chance for redemption as Voldemort. > Snape is mean, miserable, unattractive, > and nobody likes him But outside of that he's a fine fellow. > but he has directly saved Harry's life, > and Dumbledore's life. We know no details about how Snape save Dumbledore and I am enormously skeptical that it ever occurred as advertised. But yes, Snape did save Harry's life, no doubt about it, and I think I know why. Only 2 people on the planet have heard the Prophesy, Dumbledore and Snape, so Snape knows Harry's value, he needs him to get rid of Voldemort for him. > Snape is the only character specifically > mentioned in the books who feels genuine > remorse for an action. Yea, Snape said he was sorry, and there were tears in his eyes (and a onion in his hand) when he said it. After what we've seen in HBP if you still believe anything Snape says then I've got some swamp land I'd like to sell you. > Dumbledore is convinced of this. Dumbledore was also convinced that Harry was foolish to worry about Draco hanging around the Room Of Requirements, and that Death Eaters could get into the castle while they were away, and that Snape was disloyal. Eggplant From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 21:55:23 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:55:23 -0000 Subject: why did DD need Snape? /was It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > HBP-US ch 23 p 503 > "Had it not been --forgive me the lack of seemly modesty--for my own > prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I > returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to > tell the tale." > ---- > "Desperately injured" > If Snape is evil, if he wanted Dumbledore dead, why didn't he just > let him die? Who would have been the wiser if he had made a seemingly > valient attempt to cure Dumbledore and failed? Or slipped him a > healing potion that wasn't? Tonks: I agree that Snape is still working for DD. But I have aother question. DD went to Snape when he was injured and wanted Snape when he drank the poison. So is this just because Snape is a better Potions Master than Poppy or is there something else that we don't know about. Why is it Snape that DD needs? Why is it Snape that was able to save him? I wonder if there is more to this that Snape just being a good potions master. Just how good is he? Better than someone whose job it is to be a healer?? There must be some deep secret here. What is it? Tonks_op From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Aug 14 21:57:37 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:57:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Lily didn't have to die. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c5a11b$308b1f60$3421f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137625 We know that Lilly didn't go out with James until the 7th year so in the 6th she must have been going out with somebody else. Snape and Lilly must have been in the same potions class in their 6th and the term "Half Blood Prince" sounds like a pet nickname a girl might give her boyfriend. Perhaps Lilly was the real potions genius and Snape was flunking out so Lilly wrote all that stuff in Snape's book to help him, Hermione did say it looked like a girl's writing and the notes never said "I am the Half Blood Prince" it said "This book is the property of the Half Blood Prince". And perhaps that's why Lilly didn't have to die, Voldemort knew Snape still had feelings for Lilly so as a favor to his right hand man he was going to let her live, but she just wouldn't stop protecting Harry. Eggplant Sherry now: My big problem with the whole idea of lily and Snape ever having dated is the worst memory scene. He called her a mudblood in fifth year. We are given to understand that the word "mudblood" is a filthy word. I equate it to being as horrible as the word "nigger" from a white person to a black person. I can't imagine anyone being called that one year and then dating that same person the next year. I know it's one thing that could explain Voldemort offering to let lily live, but I just can't believe she'd go out with someone who called her that. I sure hope the whole why save lily issue is resolved in the last book. Sherry From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 22:02:26 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:02:26 -0000 Subject: Plot holes (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <42FFAFD8.5090004@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > Kathy writes: > Please have patience because this is difficult to work backwards > on pure plot points as opposed to a character or personality basis. > These ponts are just how it seems to me. Okay: these are not *plot* holes in the sense of holes in the plain course of events. Everything here is a perceived thematic hole. Which means I can pull out another argument: All of the objections here are based upon projections and patterns from what has happened so far. That's what we all do when we read. However, the greatest thing about reading series fiction is that we must, at each new installment, go back and re-read what has happened. At times we then realize that what we thought was a meaningful pattern was not what was actualized in the text. [That, IMO, is what has happened with the shipping Armageddon: the cold hard realization that the patterns being read turned out to be the wrong ones.] JKR is writing a very heavily end-weighted series, so a lot of things are only going to pop into focus with the resolution of the entire plot. However, she's left it very open-ended in the case of what even actually happened (plot level), which means that what it means (theme level) is correspondingly open. So here's my stab at showing how these thematic objections *could* be read another way. > Snape may have made a definitive choice for good or evil but we > have not been allowed to see for certain which way he chose. That > is still coming. If Snape has chosen evil, it adds nothing to the > plot, other than Harry will have to go through Snape to get to > Voldemort. Disagree that it adds nothing to the plot. If Snape has chosen evil as of the end of HBP, but had not chosen evil before then (he'd been on the side of good), we have the opposite of a redemption plot--the fall from grace. I don't know about you, but that's BANG-y and dramatic for me. Possibility for some great conflict scenes, too. > Snape is mean, miserable, unattractive, and nobody likes him, > but he has directly saved Harry's life, and Dumbledore's life. This > would seem to fit with JKR's message. To simply turn him evil at > this point might validate Harry's feelings, but just validating > Harry's feelings adds nothing to the plot or the message. Validating Harry's feelings at this point is actually quite BANG-y as well--precisely because we've spent however many books being told (or arguing) that Harry is Always Wrong in his perceptions of people, and that there is always so much more than we think below the surface. The plot point here could well be 'hiding in plain sight'; JKR has convinced us to read more into things than was actually there. The act of wondering is an essential part of reading itself, regardless of whether it's ultimately validated or not. > Snape has apparently given up fifteen years of his life to > Dumbledore so far. At the end of HBP he has given up any hope of a > future, any possible respect, even if vindicated by Dumbledore > somehow, and I expect his life in the satisfaction of the life debt > that he owed James. His death in the service of Voldemort would not > fit in with the theme of sacrifice that JKR has presented. But what if Snape's thematic role is not to be one in the line of sacrificial martyrs, but the one who could not bring himself to do the same thing? I'd say that comparatively he's had a pretty good fifteen years in Dumbledore's care, although the last two have probably been pretty nasty. There's nothing to foreclose upon the idea of Snape having become embittered during his time in Dumbledore's service, though. > There has to be some plot line in the next book that allows this > redemption and Harry's understanding of it. I object here to the 'there has to be'. :) Only if Snape is the character earmarked for redemption or revelation. Personally, I think that Peter's stock on that front has risen dramatically, but I make no predictions. Now, this is not to say that I don't think many of these are very strong arguments. I just don't think any of them are, if not carried out, plot holes--it simply means that Rowling has taken her thematic structure to a different place, and that means a different pattern has to be retrospectively read for the earlier books. It's a fun exercise to work out, for instance, two different charts for Snape. You can write out the one which you did here, emphasizing his loyalty to Dumbledore, redemptive path, and accordingly noble and helpful actions. Or you can write out the one with Snape's unhealthy obsession with his past, personal hatefulness and nastiness to children and others, his Dark Arts knowledge, and the more overt actions in HBP. It's going to take book 7 to see if the balance tips strongly one way or the other--assuming that JKR is going to give us that kind of clarity at all. -Nora counts 'em up and shuts 'em down From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 22:04:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:04:43 -0000 Subject: Plot holes (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <42FFAFD8.5090004@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137627 > Kathy writes: > Please have patience because this is difficult to work backwards on > pure plot points as opposed to a character or personality basis. These > ponts are just how it seems to me. If Snape has > chosen evil, it adds nothing to the plot, other than Harry will have to > go through Snape to get to Voldemort. I don't feel as though this is > what JKR is aming for. If Snape has definitively chosen good, or > redemption, then he can be used to further the plot in many ways, > poisoning Nagini, weakening Voldemort, passing information, setting up > circumstances for the Death Eaters to fail in whatever Voldemort has set > them to do, backing up Harry in the final confrontation, etc. Alla: Oh, but we have ONE book left and I do think that even only for the literary economy reasons he is not going to be on every page of book 7. :-) I mean , sure he has part to play, but I am not sure that such part would be as huge as you are suggesting. To me it seems clear that Trio will be playing central part in "Horcruxes Quest", NOT Snape. Especially in light of Harry's comments that all his protectors his lfet him AND this is his fight now. I mean, Ron and Hermione are with him, but I doubt that Snape would play the role as huge as you suggest. JKR also said that to her it is much more interesting when Hero does his job alone ( or with friends,a s we have here, but not with any of the adults). So, for Snape to play smaller role, it seems perfectly OK to me that he chose Evil. It does not have to be a definite choice after all. He can still help Harry IF he would ask for forgiveness and IF Harry chooses to forgive him. Kathy: > > 2. The difficulty in trying to determine what people are really like > seems to be central to the books as well. We all liked Moody but the > Moody we really liked was Crouch. The real Moody is a bit mental. Snape is mean, miserable, unattractive, and nobody likes him, > but he has directly saved Harry's life, and Dumbledore's life. This > would seem to fit with JKR's message. To simply turn him evil at this > point might validate Harry's feelings, but just validating Harry's > feelings adds nothing to the plot or the message. Alla: Well, again, to make adults to be not very effective at the end to me goes very well with JKR's idea of hero facing his final trial alone or with his friends. Adults have to be ineffective OR dead for the Hero to shine. That is exactly what we have in the books so far, IMO. I see no reason why JKR would make an exception for Snape. And to make Harry be right would send a message that you have to trust your own instincts first of all. Besides, Harry being right about Snape will not necessarily stop Harry from forgiving him, on the contrary. Kathy: His death in the service of Voldemort > would not fit in with the theme of sacrifice that JKR has presented. Alla: IMO, him seeing the light at the end and dying for Harry wil fit with the theme of sacrifice, IF that is what Snape is destined for by JKR. Kathy: Snape is the only character specifically > mentioned in the books who feels genuine remorse for an action. > Dumbledore is convinced of this. There has to be some plot line in the > next book that allows this redemption and Harry's understanding of it. Alla: Yes, Dumbledore says so, BUT from Snape's mouth " I spined him a tale of deepest remorse" ( paraphrase). You know prior to HBP I read many arguments that Snape omits things, but NEVER lies. Hmmmm... I do NOT like the character of Peter, and prior to HBP I felt that Snape is much more likely candidate for redemption. Now I am not so sure. If Snape remains evil ( if he is evil of course :-)), I can perfectly see Pettigrew satisfying his life debt to Harry by killing Snape,when he tries to kill Harry. Here would be your redemption storyline. Just my opinion, Alla. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Aug 14 22:05:29 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:05:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plot holes (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <42FFAFD8.5090004@telus.net> Message-ID: <002b01c5a11c$49d41840$3421f204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137628 KJ wrote: 3. Personal sacrifice is another issue central to the books. Lily sacrificed her life for Harry. Dumbledore sacrificed his life by drinking a potion that he believed would kill him to destroy another horcrux. Sherry now: I have heard this said many times by those who believe Snape is on the side of good, and I would like clarification. Do we actually *know* that the potion would kill Dumbledore? It weakened him, sickened him, but I don't remember reading that it was definitely fatal. If I just missed it, then please refresh my memory. Otherwise, is it just an assumption, that is becoming fact in the minds of everyone. Just as Snape's errand at the end of GOF is assumed to be to return to spy on Voldemort, but is it ever clearly stated to be so? Sherry From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 14 21:52:28 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:52:28 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts questions/OoP questions In-Reply-To: <193.45507aa5.3028777d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin at a... wrote: > Will Hogwarts remain open? Pat: I can see it either way. However, if it were closed it might be easier for Hermione and Ron to accompany Harry. > Susan: If yes, Will Harry, Ron or Hermione go back even for a > while? Pat: Even though Jo has said Harry must go on alone, I think Ron and Hermione will be with him. There are plenty of ways for him to have to do the last piece of each task without them, if that's what she wants to do. That happened in the DOM and with Quirrell, for examples. Other than that, I think Harry will talk to Dumbledore's portrait. And I'm wondering if there's a Horcrux in the Chamber of Secrets. How could Voldemort pass up the protection of a place that only a parseltongue can open? I haven't been reading all of the Horcrux threads, so I apologize if someone already said that. > Susan: Who will be the DADA teacher? Pat: Jo said we'd be seeing Viktor Krum again. I know he's a professional Quidditch player, but he'd only need an injury to come and be the DADA teacher for a year while he recuperates. Otherwise, how would he fit in again? The only other reason I see is if he chooses to come and fight in the war, and/or to be closer to Hermione. Maybe we'll get to see their relationship end, or how it ended, or that it didn't end and we've been fooled! Before anyone jumps on that, I'll just explain that before I read in The Interview that I was supposed to have been seeing that Hermione likes Ron, I wondered if her blubbering over Ron and Lavender was because she missed Viktor. Then she saw him over Christmas, which is why her reaction to R/Lav was different when they were leaving for Christmas, as opposed to when they all got back. My excuse is that I know Jo wanted to trick us, and I know, I know, "it's Ron and Hermione". But Hermione was writing to Krum in book 5, so we still don't know for sure how things are between them, do we. I'd like to see that resolved in book 7. Pat From klodiana_xha at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 20:31:18 2005 From: klodiana_xha at yahoo.com (klodiana_xha) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:31:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus WAS: Re: Harrys new Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137630 Carol: > We've only seen animal Patroni but that doesn't mean a Patronus *has* > to take animal form. (Absence of evidence is not proof.) I see no > reason why it can't be a person. Suppose that Snape's Patronus turns > out to be Dumbledore? That's a great idea, but think about this, Tonks' Patronus is a werewolf beacuse she loves Lupin. What if Snape's is Lilly or something related to her? Klodiana From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Aug 14 22:40:43 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:40:43 -0000 Subject: Plot holes (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <002b01c5a11c$49d41840$3421f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Sherry now: > > I have heard this said many times by those who believe Snape is on the side > of good, and I would like clarification. Do we actually *know* that the > potion would kill Dumbledore? It weakened him, sickened him, but I don't > remember reading that it was definitely fatal. If I just missed it, then > please refresh my memory. Hickengruendler: It wasn't confirmed. It's an assumption, but I think one that is supported in canon by two statements. First, Hermione telling Harry (and therefore Rowling telling the readers) that there are Potions, for which no antidote exists. It's in the chapter "Snape victorious". First of all, one has to wonder why JKR decided to give us this information, if it doesn't have some meaning for the plot. Also, it would be a plot hole, IMO, if Voldemort doesn't use such a Potion, if it exists. Surely he would make sure, that whoever destroyed Horcrux number 1 won't be able to destroy another one. The second statement was Dumbledore telling Harry, that the Potion wouldn't kill right away, since Voldemort wanted to ask the intruder how he was able to get to the Horcrux. The *right away* suggests strongly IMO, that Dumbledore considered the possibility, that the Potion was deadly. It also explains why Dumbledore returned to Hogwarts in a comparatively good shape, after drinking the Potion. > Just as Snape's errand at the end > of GOF is assumed to be to return to spy on Voldemort, but is it ever > clearly stated to be so? > > Sherry Hickengruendler: At the very least this was what Dumbledore wanted him to do. Snape confirmed this in front of Bella and Narcissa in the chapter Spinner's End. He said he went back on Dumbledore's Orders. Now if he went back to spy on Voldie or just to pretend to spy on Voldie, while he was in fact spying on Dumbledore (or maybe playing both sides) is still open and will only be resolved in book 7. But Harry guessed the mission on which Snape was sent correctly. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 14 22:45:22 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:45:22 -0000 Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux; Harry's protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137632 Nicholas wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137620 : << My conclusion is that Dumbledore set up his own death as the required sacrifice to create continued protection for Harry into adulthood. >> I have a feeling that Opposite of a Horcrux (Incrux?) doesn't work if the self-sacrificing death was 'set up' by the self-sacrificer. From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 14 22:45:39 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:45:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FFC993.7020208@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137633 eggplant107 wrote: > I never liked Snape and was always a bit mystified why so many felt > that deep down he's really just a sweetheart, but before HBP JKR could > perhaps morphed him into a good guy, or at least into a less > despicable character; but now JKR has burned her bridges as far as > Snape is concerned. After what we saw in HBP if she tries to turn > Snape into a good guy the last book in the Potter series will be a > disaster because killing Dumbledore is quite simply unforgivable. > > Eggplant Kathy writes: I don't think he's a sweetheart, I just think there has to be a point to him. JKR has deliberately written him in a manner that gets our attention. JKR writes in a manner that affects our emotions. Several times in the books, I cringed when Snape did something particularly despicable. When I read the tower chapter, I was absolutely floored, flabbergasted, appalled, (have I left anything out?) but my emotional reaction was "Oh, God, No, I can't believe she did that! How could she do that!" I think that I respond to Harry as a force of nature, Dumbledore as a master planner, and Snape as a victim of peer pressure, poor choices, more like a cork in the sea. I don't see Snape as being as powerful as Dumbledore or Voldemort. He has been portrayed as more intelligent than the the Deatheaters, but that's not saying much. He's been portrayed as having a bit more on the ball than most of the Order, which in some cases isn't saying much. He stands out in comparison. He wasn't referred to as the brightest student at Hogwarts in the Marauder days, James and Sirius were. JKR shows him as being highly effective, healing Draco, non-verbal spells, fighting skills, wandless magic (PS/SS), saving Dumbledore from the ring horcrux curse, and yet he has appeared powerless to make any definitive changes in his own life. To me, his character is a much more interesting puzzle than Harry's. Since Harry is the "hero" of the story, I have to wonder why JKR gave so much prominence to Snape's character. Your post was a most interesting discussion. KJ From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 14 22:43:46 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:43:46 -0000 Subject: DDwatch/OWLs/Lily-Sevvy-James/LilyFrogspawn/Filch/Ghost/Scrimgeour/Karkaroff/ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137634 Listies have been posting that Neville's new wand is cherry and unicorn hair. It occured to me that I cannot think of a more virginal combination. I deeply admire the threads on Sacrificial Love - Last Judgment Love - Opposite of a Horcrux (I think those topics are entwined) but have nothing to add to them. Claire wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136995 : << Among Ron's birthday presents is a "heavy gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars instead of hands." I thought I was experiencing deja vu until I remembered something from PS/SS (which I'm also rereading concurrently): "Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he a took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers. Instead, little planets were moving around the edge." Given JKR's penchant for giving us what are seemingly throw-away lines, I had to wonder if Ron's present is actually Dumbledore's watch. >> The watches are described differently. DD's in PS/SS "it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge." Ron's watch in HBP: "a heavy gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars instead of hands." Ron's watch - no hands. DD's watch - 12 hands. Ron's watch - odd symbols. DD's watch - no mention of odd symbols. Ron's watch - moving stars. DD's watch - moving planets. I also think that 'instead of hands' is a bit closer to the center than 'around the edge'. Some suggest that the 12 hands on DD's watch are 12 people over whom he is watching, but I think that watch is strictly astrological In my theory, the 12 hands divide the 12 houses. (In the physical world, the sky turns and the Houses stay in place except for like 1 degree a day, but the watch face stays in place and the House Hands turn.) The planets around the edge move in accordance with the planets in the real sky. DD knows, or there is some marking not specified in JKR's description, where the constellations are. Such a watch can tell time AND tell you the moment's astrological influences. I don't think JKR believes in astrology, but the centaurs do. Mud69 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137177 : << When the three get their OWL results back (HBP, 102), it is noted that Hermione got 11 OWL's-- 10 Outstanding, and an E in Defense Against the Dark Arts. But, when you list all the classes she takes, the number only adds up to 10. >> IOW, Hermione received her 11 OWLs in: 1. Astronomy 2. Care Of Magical Creatures 3. Charms 4. DADA 5. Herbology 6. History of Magic 7. Potions 8. Transfiguration 9. Ancient Runes 10. Arithmancy 11. ????? I posted something on the other list last week about Divination and Arithmancy were only half-day exams, so if Ancient RUnes (that Hermione took while Harry and Ron had Friday off) was also a half-day exam, she could have taken another half-day exam that same day. Some listies have suggested that she (and every other Muggle-born) could ace the Muggle Studies OWL without taking the class (also I think they'd fail for failing to give the erroneous answers taught in class). I suggested that the wizarding world is so different from the Muggle world that there could be an OWL exam that only prefects are allowed to take (so Harry wouldn't know about it, and Ron doesn't seem the type to take any more OWL exams than he HAS to), with questions about leadership and discipline and authority. I had another idea, that one History of Magic exam tests for 2 OWLs, one for the BC History of Magic and one for the AD History of Magic. I don't know if seeing Harry's OWL results blows that out of the water, or if it can be argued that they don't further depress people who failed both by telling them that they missed TWO qualifications. In any case, I don't understand how Hermione only got 11 OWLs when Bill and Percy got 12. She has been established as an unusually outstanding student that doesn't come along as often as every 4 years. If they got both 2 History OWLs and Prefect OWL, why didn't she? Julia wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137190 : << who wants to know wheather Lily helped Severus because she liked him or because she hated James... >> OoP Chapter 28, "Snape's Worst Memory" I don't think Lily could have liked Severus THAT MUCH, because when James hung him upside down: "Lily, whose furious expression, had twiched for an instant as if she were going to smile, said: "Let him down!"" (US page 648) If she was sweet on Sevvy, she wouldn't have felt like smiling at James's quick reflexes or Severus looking silly or Severus hoist on his own petard. (literal 'hoist', figurative 'petard' -- the Levicorpus hex that we know from HBP that Severus had invented. If Lily and Severus had collaborated in Advanced Potions, she could have known that he was the inventor.) Lily DID NOT hate James. "Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can --" (same page 648) She's clearly been observing him closely. My recollection of main reasons for one teen-ager to make a habit of observing another closely: 1) best enemies (like Severus and James), 2) hero worship (like Peter and James), 3) being sweet on him (like Lily and James). JKR gave Ron and Hermione a similar pattern in HBP: Hermione is sweet on Ron, apparently has been for several books, but refuses to aquiesce to him being sweet on her because she disapproves of his behavior. Cheryl wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137203 : << In PS/SS, doesn't Petunia say that Lily came back from Hogwarts carrying frog spawn in her pockets and changing teacups into mice or something like that? What about the restrcition of underage wizardry? You'd think that the MOM would find out since Lily's family were Muggles. >> http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=77 says: "In "Philosopher's Stone" Aunt Petunia says that Lily came back from Hogwarts with frog spawn in her pockets and turned teacups into rats. If this is true, why wasn't Lily expelled? Aunt Petunia is exaggerating a little; you have to allow for her state of mind when she started shrieking these things. However, just like her son, Lily was not averse to testing the limits of the Statute of Secrecy, so you can safely assume she will have had a few warning letters ? nothing too serious, though." Sandy Ms*bead*sley wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137207 : << (Yeah, I know this doesn't work because Filch was there when Arthur and Molly were at school, but still...) >> I don't know if it works or not, Pringle was the caretaker before Filch because in GoF, Molly reminisces: "Your father and I had been for a night-time stroll," she said. "He got caught by Apollyon Pringle ? he was the caretaker in those days ? your father's still got the marks." Aussie Hagrid wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137513 : << If any ghost takes a major role in books 7, I'd keep an eye out for the Bloody Baron >> Besides your point of whether the BB is a DE spy (or could he be Voldemort's *master"?), he is said to be the only person who can control Peeves, which is because Peeves is afraid of him. I want to know why. However, I think Binns ought to play a role in the plot, not just as a piece of furniture in the setting. Rniche wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137585 : << I am curious about the name Scrimgeour. A scrim is a sort of a veil. To gore is to pierce. Assuming the "geour" part is pronounced "gore", you have Rufus Veil piercer. Is he connected to the mysteries of going beyond the veil? Is he connected to the two characters named Percival (DD and Percy Weasley?) >> I read somewhere that Scrimgeour means 'fighter', from the same root as 'skirmish', 'ecrime', and 'scaramouche'. ('Ecrime' is French for fencing, so my friend practises at a 'salon d'ecrime'.) Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137605 : << As for Karkaroff's age, his hair is black in the Pensieve scene when he betrays the other Death Eaters, including Snape. It's as white as Dumbledore's when he's at Hogwarts with his students. >> And Dumbledore's hair was auburn in the CoS diary flashback. That was '50 years ago' so DD was 100. I am led to wonder if white hair is a sign of Headmastership rather than of age. From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Aug 14 22:45:33 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:45:33 -0000 Subject: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Dumbledore tells Harry in the Horcrux chapter: "I have traveled > widely, visiting those places he once knew. I stumbled across the > ring hidden in the ruin of the Gaunts' house...He hid it....never > guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or > that I might be keeping an eye open for traces of magical > concealment." (p. 504, US). > > I'm making a guess here that Dumbledore also visited the Riddle > House/graveyard at the same time, looking for 'magical concealment' > and found none. The orphange too, I think, because not finding signs > of concealment at the orphanage probably led Dumbledore to remember > the cave, a site where Riddle probably performed somewhat complex > magic for his age. Mrs. Cole was likely dead, but Amy Benson and/or > Dennis Bishop might have been convinced to tell the location of the > cave to Dumbledore. > > So say the Riddle House and the orphanage are out, and the Gaunt > House provided the ring, but offers no more clues. > > Our knowledge of other possibilities is slim, as Dumbledore > said, "If it was difficult to find evidence about the boy Riddle, it > has been almost impossible to find anyone prepared to reminisce > about the man Voldemort. In fact, I doubt whether a soul > alive....could give us a full account of his life since he left > Hogwarts." (chap. 20, p. 430, US): > > What are there now, two more Horcruxes to find? That's assuming the > locket at 12GP is a Horcrux, and Nagini as well. So, two down, two > located but not destroyed, and two missing. > > 1) Hogwarts--very likely, given the significance to Riddle. > 2) Borgin and Burkes--maybe. Would have to be concealed pretty well > not to get sold! > 3) Azkaban--It might be interesting for Harry to see Azkaban before > the series is over. A Horcrux would be well-proteced there. Possible. > 4) Godric's Hollow--unlikely (in my mind). The only significance to > Voldemort was Harry; he would not hide a Horcrux at GH before the > night he went to kill the Potters. I'm not a Harry-as-Horcrux > believer. ;) > 5) Hepzibah Smith's house--No. Not safe enough, not significant > enough. > > Those are the only places we really know Voldemort visited or had > significance to him. Somewhere in Albania is possible, or > aussie/justcarol mentioned Durmstrang in post #137605 as I'm writing > this. But Harry is running out of time and pages, so that might be a > time-consuming diversion. > > Jen, wondering if Harry will be able to learn the art of noticing > magical concealment or if someone will do it for him? BG Here: I keep trying to figure out how Hermione will use her knowledge of Ancient Runes and Arithmancy. Those subjects are mentioned too much not to be relevant to the plot. She will use them on the Horcrux trail but how? What is Ron's gift? We know he is willing to sacrifice himself for the cause. He is brave and loyal. I also think that he is related to DD. When in COS DD is described with auburn hair it made me think of the Weasley clan. Was Gryffindor a ginger head as well? Ummmm? JKR tells us the three are stronger together than apart and their wand cores represent the three cores Olivander uses in his wands. Will they need to use their wands together to fight Voldermorte? Must it be Harry alone? LV underestimates all love including love for a friend. He will not plan for the three to fight him together. As for magical concealment, I think Harry knows more than he realizes. At the end of Book 6 he has some peculiar thoughts linked to DD - did DD leave something of himself in Harry - his ability to detect magical concealment? From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Aug 14 23:01:20 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:01:20 -0000 Subject: Snape and Petunia Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137636 Ok,Ok I get it. Petunia is a muggle no questions asked. She is a muggle but......she has met some of Lily's friends and being her nosy self she spied, listened and learned much. She probably poked around Lily's room and read her owl mail too. I suppose Lily brought friends home on a holiday. Maybe Snape was one she invited as a friend - I think he is the "horrible boy" Petunia spoke of in POA. What else did she hear? She knows who LV is and she knows when Harry comes of age she and her family will be at his mercy. They mean little to Harry but he will not wish them harm. Harry's time with the Dursley's will be very interesting. From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 23:02:42 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:02:42 -0000 Subject: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > 1) Hogwarts--very likely, given the significance to Riddle. > 2) Borgin and Burkes--maybe. Would have to be concealed pretty well > not to get sold! > 3) Azkaban--It might be interesting for Harry to see Azkaban before > the series is over. A Horcrux would be well-proteced there. Possible. > 4) Godric's Hollow--unlikely (in my mind). The only significance to > Voldemort was Harry; he would not hide a Horcrux at GH before the > night he went to kill the Potters. I'm not a Harry-as-Horcrux > believer. ;) > 5) Hepzibah Smith's house--No. Not safe enough, not significant > enough. > > Those are the only places we really know Voldemort visited or had > significance to him. Somewhere in Albania is possible, or > aussie/justcarol mentioned Durmstrang in post #137605 as I'm writing > this. But Harry is running out of time and pages, so that might be a > time-consuming diversion. > > Jen, wondering if Harry will be able to learn the art of noticing > magical concealment or if someone will do it for him? Has anyone previously considered the way the cave was so protected and thought of how LV may have protected the other locations? For example, the Chamber of Secrets may yet have an unknown, protected room, but where else in Hogwarts could LV really place a horcrux under such powerful spells and have them remain undetected so many years? Ditto for Borgin & Burkes, as well. Lorel From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 23:27:31 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:27:31 -0000 Subject: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137638 BG Here: What is Ron's gift? We know he is willing to sacrifice himself for the cause. He is brave and loyal. I also think that he is related to DD. When in COS DD is described with auburn hair it made me think of the Weasley clan. Was Gryffindor a ginger head as well? Ummmm? vmonte: Yes, I also think they are all decendants of Godric Gryffindor. I posted on this idea recently. BG: JKR tells us the three are stronger together than apart and their wand cores represent the three cores Olivander uses in his wands. Will they need to use their wands together to fight Voldermorte? Must it be Harry alone? LV underestimates all love including love for a friend. He will not plan for the three to fight him together. vmonte: I think that Harry will eventually find out that his scar is the last horcrux and he will decide that he must sacrifice himself. (I'm hoping that the other children will somehow intervene and save his life.) The poor guy, hasn't he done enough? "The most important thing about the scar is not it's shape." So, what was so important about Dumbledore's London Underground Scar? Why mention it? Vivian Does anyone else have a feeling that a morphed Tonks will take on Fenrir? From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Aug 14 23:34:59 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:34:59 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor heirs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137639 > vmonte: > Yes, I also think they are all decendants of Godric Gryffindor. I > posted on this idea recently. > >BG asks: What was the thread? I'd like to read your post(s) on the subject. > From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 14 23:55:17 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050814235517.69983.qmail@web53304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137640 Does anyone else have a feeling that a morphed Tonks will take on Fenrir? Luckdragon: I'm really hoping that Lupin himself will defeat Fenrir and possibly reverse the curse so he and Tonks can live happily ever after. At the very least Lupin deserves revenge for the sad life the evil Fenrir has forced him to live. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 15 00:11:31 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:11:31 -0000 Subject: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137641 > > -Jen Reese- > > 1) Hogwarts--very likely, given the significance to Riddle. > > 2) Borgin and Burkes--maybe. Would have to be concealed pretty > > well not to get sold! > > 3) Azkaban--It might be interesting for Harry to see Azkaban > > before the series is over. A Horcrux would be well-proteced there. > Possible. > > 4) Godric's Hollow--unlikely (in my mind). The only significance > > to Voldemort was Harry; he would not hide a Horcrux at GH > > before the night he went to kill the Potters. > > 5) Hepzibah Smith's house--No. Not safe enough, not significant > > enough. > > > > Those are the only places we really know Voldemort visited or > > had significance to him. Somewhere in Albania is possible, or > > aussie/justcarol mentioned Durmstrang in post #137605 as I'm > writing > > this. But Harry is running out of time and pages, so that might > > be a time-consuming diversion. > > > > Jen, wondering if Harry will be able to learn the art of > > noticing magical concealment or if someone will do it for him? > -lorelei3dg- > Has anyone previously considered the way the cave was so protected > and thought of how LV may have protected the other locations? For > example, the Chamber of Secrets may yet have an unknown, protected > room, but where else in Hogwarts could LV really place a horcrux > under such powerful spells and have them remain undetected so many > years? Ditto for Borgin & Burkes, as well. > -aussie- Remember, DD especially didn't want to give a clue to Draco of anything Draco couldn't conceal, Occlemency wise, from DEs. So he wouldn't have wanted to go too close to Draco's haunts during HBP. Binns (in COS) said "Naturally, the school has been searched for evidence of such a chamber, many times, by the most learned witches and wizards. It does not exist. A tale told to frighten the gullible." - so many normal areas can be dismissed. Nonetheless, DD (in GOF ch23) mentioned to Karkaroff, "Oh I would never dream of assuming I know all Hogwarts' secrets, Igor", and then described stumbling ontl the Room of Requirements as a bathroom, but never being able to find it again. (I remember it because JKR said in an interview that referred to a room she would like to visit in Hogwarts) In Hogwarts: 6) the Chamber needed Parseltongue to enter, so DD may not have checked there. 7) DD didn't know how the Room of Requirements worked prior to OOTP, and may not have explored the section where Draco was working during HBP. 8) DD didn't check the Slytherin common room area, although students weren't happy with Snape poking around there. Snape may have been less effective (on purpose?) at checking their common room for concealed areas. (That is an area Riddle would have felt most at home in Hogwarts) 9) The tunnels leading to Hogsmede! The Mauanders and twins were the only ones that knew of 3 of them. One was blocked off. Outside of Hogwarts:- 10) LV had giants working with him last time, and they can't perceive magic so well. One of their colonies would be naturally protected by the inhabitants. 11) I'd still like to see the Dragon santury where Charlie works. LV thought anything he was scared of may keep others away as well (hence, the Inferi in HBP horcrux location) As for who can help find them:- * Slughorn * the kidnapped Florean Fortescue was very accomplished in history and knew his Wizarding families (he helped Harry with his homework in POA) -I was wondering why it was important to kidnap him? * Krum. With Karkaroff dead, a 'friendly' face that is familiar with Dark places in Europe may help. It would also be amusing to see how Ron/Hermione/Krum coopperate. * and my favorite suggestion, isn't it time an aussie wizard was introduced (stop moaning ... lol) -aussie- From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 00:24:44 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:24:44 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor heirs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137642 BG asks: What was the thread? I'd like to read your post(s) on the subject. Ok vmonte: I've been thinking of Arthur Weasley lately. I think that this seemingly ordinary man, who enjoys the simple things in life, who is looked down upon by Lucius Malfoy and the ministry, is going to become the new Order leader. Yes, I know, wishful thinking. Have you ever noticed that the most secure people often tend to be understated? They never feel the need to boast or brag, and they often enjoy the simple things in life. I see Arthur as this kind of man (Dumbledore was also this kind of man). Arthur is a very interesting man. We know that he is the exact opposite of Lucius Malfoy--a biggoted, cruel, and hateful person. We also know that Arthur has raised his children to be respectful of Muggles. We have seen him go after the twins when he believed they were behaving improperly--when they played the prank against Dudley, as well other events relating to the outrageous things the twins have done to family members (Ron in particular). It is obvious when we hear the children defending Hermione (I have heard Ginny, Fred, George, and Ron stand up for Muggles and wizards born of Muggle parents) that they have learned this lesson from their father. They have a belief in what is right (from dad), and have learned unconditional love (from their mother). Arthur is a very brave man--but in an understated way. I love that he took Harry to his hearing in OOTP. I love that he risks his life for Harry and for the Order, even if it puts him and his family in danger. The Weasley's are a very brave family. They are all strong in their conviction for what is right. Arthur has taught his children well. (Not once have I seen Ron back away from helping Harry--even with his fear of spiders he still went into the forest). I think that the Weasley family is a very important family! I would like to see Arthur step into Dumbledore's role as Order leader. I think that this man has been underestimated (even by fans) because he is poor, and because he allows Molly to be herself. (He loves Molly, and he gets her! He doesn't have to prove to anyone that he wears the pants in the family--because he does.) Percy's comment that this dad 'has no ambition,' just saddens me because Percy just doesn't get it. Arthur has his priorities straight if you ask me! I secretly hope that Arthur (King Arthur?) is the heir of Gryffindor. (My feeling is that Dumbledore comes from the same family line.) I think that this family is going to rock in the next book. Weasley is our King! >From JKR's site: Some Random Facts About The Weasley Family Ron was the only one of three major characters whose surname never changed; he has been 'Weasley' from start to finish. In Britain and Ireland the weasel has a bad reputation as an unfortunate, even malevolent, animal. However, since childhood I have had a great fondness for the family mustelidae; not so much malignant as maligned, in my opinion. There are also many superstitions associated with redheaded people and most state that they are in some way unlucky (Judas Escariot was supposedly red-haired), but this is nonsense; I happen to like red hair as well as weasels. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136927 http://www.vmonte.com/HPHome.html From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 23:33:20 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:33:20 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black /Re: Snape, loyaltie and the fine thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137643 Potioncat: > > However, DD and the Order knew Pettigrew was alive and working for > LV. > > Do you think DD wanted Pettigrew turned in? For Snape to turn him > in, > > he would have had to blow his cover. DD told Harry he would be > glad he > > spared PP, so I think DD wants PP in LV's camp. Alla: > > I agree with you, that if Snape turns him in, it would blow his > cover, BUT it does not mean that everybody has to KNOW that Snape > initiated that. > > I think Order could have arranged a little kidnapping from Spinner's > End, if they wanted to, no? I am not so sure that Snape informed DD > about that little development, but plot wise yes, I am sure JKR > has a part for Peter to play at the end. I also think that DD wants wormtail in LVs camp. In fact, he wants as many people who either care about or have promised to help or "owe" Harry anything to be as close as possible to LV. It would be kind of cheesy, but I can almsot visualize a final scene in which Voldemort, Draco, Bella, Cissy, Snape and Wormtail confront Harry after he has destroyed the Horcruxes without LV's knowledge: Just when LV seems most sure of victory Snape, Wormtail, (and maybe) Draco and Cissy cross the floor to stand by Harry's side because he's saved their ass at one point or another or they've seen the light and just want to destroy evil. I think part of DD's plan is ensuring there are people in position to betray LV to Hary's advantage at the *most* crucial moment. He's done it with Snape and Wormtail and he's in the process of turning Draco when he dies. It's all supposed to come down to the fact that Harry has friends he can trust and an infitie capacity to love, right? What good is Wormtail's life debt locked up in Azkaban? J From docmara at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 00:48:17 2005 From: docmara at comcast.net (docmara1) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:48:17 -0000 Subject: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137644 Hi all, Long time lurker here :) I wanted to gingerly dip my toe into the waters here to talk about an idea that is alluded to a lot, but is not explicitly mentioned in the conversations I've read (and I think I'm actually almost caught up! :)). It, of course, draws on many comments and ideas of many on this list. :) So, here it is, take it in whatever way seems to further discussion. :) There is a lot of thoughtful talk and speculation referring to the "Power" that Harry has that LV is missing, with Love being the most likely contender. What I propose is that there is a fundamental feeling/experience that is a precursor or prerequisite for what we usually call Love. This experience is *attachment*. >From a psychological perspective, attachment is a complex concept, but it develops in part from a child's experience of being loved -- seeing the proverbial "gleam" in the other's eye (wonder if DD's "gleam" is connected somehow..hmm.). Attachment is resilient and evolving, and forms the bedrock of a person's personality development. Anyway, we know that even though Harry spent almost 11 years with the Dursleys, that he was a much loved and wanted infant, and most likely experienced that very early bonding with others who love him. We see parents who attempted to protect him and died rather than "move aside" and leave him open to attack. We see other adults who went out of their way to protect him and watch over him even from afar. In direct contrast, we have Tom Riddle, who, we learn, is markedly disconnected from others and at least in one important instance, rejects attempts to provide guidance, support or nurturing from a potentially supportive adult (and who seems to have kept his emotional distance from others, charming or controlling them instead). We see a family pattern of poor attachments (Marvolo's treatment of Merope as a glaring example) culminating in abandonment of her newborn by Merope (abandonment as experienced by Tom, for sure, but possibly to be seen as a choice to abandon if we presume that she potentially *could have* prevented her own death and taken care of her child). This pattern continues as they each grow. Tom quite literally disconnected himself from identification with his family (rejecting his "filthy muggle father's" name), and, fundamentally, from association with others that don't include dominating and controlling them (which grows from viewing others as objects to manipulate, which we see even in his early childhood). As many others have noted, he has no actual relationships, trusts nobody (you don't need to regularly use legilimency if you actually trust...), and has even torn his soul to pieces in order to preserve a fantasy of immortality. And cold-blooded murder, of course, is the ultimate expression of disconnection from humanity, which can develop (in part) from never having experienced that fundamental connection to another. This all makes me think more about LV's obsession with immortality, and the terror that he must feel about death -- when you consider that he is not really tied to anybody or anything -- there is nobody with whom he has shared a close relationship, nobody who (as Harry does with his parents) will think of him, remember him, and be better b/c of having known him. In short, he would not live on after his death (might be infamous, but not live on in the way that James and Lily do for so many people). Harry is another story altogether. As many have noted, Harry doesn't survive because he is a fabulous wizard with endless skills or power (though I do think that he is powerful but still much less schooled and experienced than many others). He has survived, I think, for several reasons. Each of these reasons, I think, reflects what is unique about Harry. Instead of feeling an intense longing for acceptance, approval or admiration (which would not be surprising given the isolation and rejection he has experienced), Harry withstands pressure to "go with the program" and finally *belong* and be widely approved of, because he knows that "the program" is wrong (Umbridge, Scrimgeour). He is able to know this and hold on to it, I think, because he holds on to his emotional memory of his parents which links up with the experience of the relationships he forms in the WW which reflect those relationships (they knew his parents and loved them) and help him to develop this capacity not only to love and form attachments, but also to be true to himself (which reflects a certain security and groundedness). Harry feels a basic responsibility to other people -- that "saving people thing" that Hermione referred to in OOP. Harry doesn't want to "save" others for his own glory or self-importance (in contrast to Snape who was devastated to lose the affirmation of the Order of the Merlin at the end of POA). He has the emotional capacity to care and to see himself not in grandiose ways (unlike "Lord" Voldemort) but as a responsible part of a larger whole. Because he doesn't seek admiration or aggrandizement, Harry readily turns to others for help. Early on, he tends to turn to his friends rather than adults (though he does gradually try out and form adult attachments with Hagrid, then Sirius and finally, Dumbledore). Given that he has not had current experience trusting and turning to adults, this makes sense. He doesn't expect to be taken care of, and doesn't expect to be thought of as special. Yet he does have an ability to share himself with others and let himself be cared about by them. Next, Harry feels real connection to other people, including an attachment to his parents who he only vaguely remembers, but whose love and caring for him has been *internalized* by him -- this internalization is key, I think. Someone (Del?) wrote beautifully about the possibility that the "opposite of a Horcrux" would mean magically adding something to your soul through an act of (possibly sacrificial) love (or, I would posit, deep attachment). I think that one way to think about this enhancing or adding to your soul is in terms of the feeling you get when you are deeply connected to someone else, and how this feels magical, and as if you are somehow better as a result. When you are changed this way as a result of a relationship with another person, you have essentially taken in part of that person -- kept them alive inside of you. This makes Harry immeasureably more powerful than LV. I believe that Harry has done this through his memory of his parents, even has he has wrestled with his changing knowledge of his father and reconciling that with the wished for father he had held inside and which probably sustained him at the Dursleys. This internalized version of his parents is a bridge that allows him to feel connected to Lupin and then, ultimately, to Sirius, initially as links to his parents, but later, in their own right. It was this basic appreciation for relationships (respect for what the echo of Cedric asked of him, and a vague realization of what this would mean for Cedric's parents) that led him to risk himself to take Cedric's body back with him in GOF. It allows him to tolerate abuse and injustice at the hands of the ministry without breaking because it anchors him. This is reflected as well in his feelings towards Dumbledore -- loyalty, love -- attachment to DD. This is what, I believe, called Fawkes to Harry in the CoS. It is also, IMO, what caused Harry to smile and laugh at DD's funeral. Even though DD was gone (won't get into what sort of gone or how gone here ;-p), he is not *really* gone so long as others are still loyal to him, attached to him. He lives on in those who love him. These are the sorts of experiences that buffer someone who has lived through unthinkable loss. What is still vague for me is why Harry's capacity for attachment holds so much more power than that of other people in the WW. I wonder if the clause "born to those who have thrice defied him" is meaningful here. Harry's parents also demonstrated great courage, strength of character, loyalty and loving attachment -- maybe even rejecting the lure of LV (DD commented that Harry avoided being seduced by the dark side, makes me wonder how others in the original Order might have been approached by LV to join up) and escaping him three times. There is a chain being formed here, and maybe it's the links in the chain all holding together -- generationally and amongst peers who support one another, that will make all the difference in the final confrontation. It seems to me that the prophecy sets this up -- that LV in essence chose Harry and in so doing, set things in motion for Harry to develop these capacities in a more intense way than most. Do others think that this is what makes Harry the "chosen one?" Stepping back into the shadows now, but very happy to talk about this with anybody who wants to :) Mara (who tried really hard not to sound like a psychologist, but who probably still does... and who *loves* reading hpfgu :)) From zanelupin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 01:22:53 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:22:53 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137645 Potioncat: >> What I'd like to know, is how it was that Black was cleared and his will was read within weeks of his death? What evidence was > presented that couldn't have been presented before?: Alla: > Ooooo, GREAT QUESTION. I have no idea. Maybe they got Bella's wand > and deduced that since DE attacked Sirius he must be innocent. No, > this is lame :-) KathyK: Well, since they relied on eye witnesses to determine Sirius's guilt, why wouldn't this suffice to clear him? The knew LV was back- -that Dumbledore and Harry were right. All of a sudden their word holds a heck of a lot more weight. Factor in that several Ministry employees can attest that Sirius was working *against* LV, and I think it's perfectly reasonable that they would clear him, particularly as we learn that very early on the Ministry wanted Harry with them. Clearing Sirius's name might have been more difficult if the Minister did not find Harry's cooperation with the MoM so very appealing. They wanted to be on Harry's good side. I wonder if they bothered with stripping Pettigrew of his Order of Merlin when they decided Sirius was innocent? KathyK From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 15 01:45:16 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:45:16 -0000 Subject: Saving Harry was Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137646 > > Pippin: > > That percentage of readers will be revealing their ignorance of > > chivalric legends, from which all three works are derived. > > Lancelot could be considered the ancestor of all > > traitorous comrades who eventually come to the kingdom's aid. > > TH White even conceived him as being ugly and sadistic, though > > there's no basis for that in Mallory. Nora: > This assumes, of course, that JKR is interested in such strict > correspondences. The way it's put here smacks of far too much Joseph Campbell structuralism for my taste--by which I mean that everything is reduced down to the points where things correspond, and everything that doesn't match (and is usually what makes the milieu of each story different and meaningful) is elided out. 'Derived' in this case seems, IMO, so vague as to be almost meaningless. Pippin: When an author who professes no love for the form finds herself willy nilly writing of castles, unicorns, good and evil enchanters, etc. I would say there is some correspondence at work. And if she has no great affection for these things in themselves, then perhaps we might profitably look at the structure. If she chose an evil Overlord for her villain, it is probable that she had something to say about the nature of evil that she couldn't say if she made him an officer of Grunnings, Ltd. The middle ages were haunted by the fear of treachery as is our own, because they too had a social structure that depended on strangers keeping their agreements and being who they claimed to be. In their tales, the enemy may come from outside, but he is aided by a traitor within, sometimes consciously, but sometimes not. Usually the traitor's aims are purely domestic-- not the sort of thing an Evil Overlord would waste time with. Consider Snape, who seems genuinely interested in teaching DADA, though perhaps a little too morbidly fond, compared to Voldemort who sought the position only as a source of power. What I was trying to get at, though, is a comparison between Lancelot, who for all the good that was in him seemingly could not give up his wrongful enjoyment of the Queen, and Snape, who, whatever good might be in him, seemingly cannot give up his wrongful enjoyment of Harry-baiting. Does Snape has to be redeemed of Harry-baiting before he can effectively help the good side? In Lancelot's case, after his treachery with the Queen was exposed, he was also thought to have murdered two young knights who had been his friends. But he had not knowingly killed them, and the salvation of the realm depended on their brother realizing this, abandoning the quest for vengeance against Lancelot and begging him to come to the aid of the king, who had meanwhile been attacked by Mordred, another traitor who did have designs on the throne. Although Lancelot did eventually have to give up his sinful relationship and seek redemption, the other good guys had to give up their wrongful suspicions of him first. Pippin sorry to have to condense Le Morte Darthur so severely From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 01:53:04 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:53:04 -0000 Subject: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137647 Lorel wrote: Has anyone previously considered the way the cave was so protected and thought of how LV may have protected the other locations? For example, the Chamber of Secrets may yet have an unknown, protected room, but where else in Hogwarts could LV really place a horcrux under such powerful spells and have them remain undetected so many years? Ditto for Borgin & Burkes, as well. vmonte: I would talk to the twins. It seems like they know that school inside out. They know all of the passageways, everything. I wonder what happened in the passageway that collapsed? The one the twins told Harry to avoid? Vivian From tjdjwanek at aol.com Mon Aug 15 01:37:51 2005 From: tjdjwanek at aol.com (hagridsdad) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:37:51 -0000 Subject: Missing characters and Portrait!DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137648 > SSSusan: >> No, if Harry's going to figure out Snape's still "okay," (as okay as > a major prick can be, that is), then I think it's going to have to > come from a talk w/ portrait!DD. Do you think it possible that DD was trying to give Harry the emotion needed to perform the unforgiveable curses. Remember what happened when Harry tried to use one on Bellatrix in MOM during OOTP. How else would he develop that kind of hatred needed in order to use the Avada Cadavra curse on Voldemort. Just a thought. Hagridsdad. From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Aug 15 02:10:53 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:10:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again/ Argument in the Forest again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137649 Brotherjib wrote: > > > OK so our biggest difference in opinion stems from; > My POV - DD could not possibly be so wrong about Snape > Your POV - DD wouldn't ask Snape to Murder him > > I will try and tackle your query. It seems in that chapter that DD > can barely keep himself upright. One of the DE's even suggests he > is 'not long for this world'. DD was dying at that precise moment. > The 'gaze' that Snape and DD exchange before the AK, is simply DD > telling Snape to do it. Since the first curse has not healed, it is > possible that this was premeditated since DD may have been dying > (albeit at a slower rate) from the first curse!! > Well, I don't think that IS the biggest difference in opinion. I think it comes down to what you would find a satisfactory and well written ending - which is an irreconcilable difference. I think many of us would find the whole "DD did legilemency and asked/instructed/ordered Snape to kill him on the Tower" twist to be extremely contrived, insulting to the reader, and, frankly, silly. JKR has already strained suspension of disbelief through whipsaw changes in tone, abandonment of an entire book worth of set up, and very inconsistent characterization. One would hope that she wouldn't come up with a poorly written, last minute reversal. The legilemency on the tower scenario would be essentially "Harry was wrong about Snape yet again," which at this point would be going to that particular well MUCH too often to make for good writing or a satisfactory ending, IMO. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Aug 15 02:29:33 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:29:33 -0000 Subject: Saving Harry was Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Nora: > > This assumes, of course, that JKR is interested in such strict > > correspondences. The way it's put here smacks of far too much > Joseph Campbell structuralism for my taste--by which I mean that > everything is reduced down to the points where things correspond, > and everything that doesn't match (and is usually what makes the > milieu of each story different and meaningful) is elided out. > 'Derived' in this case seems, IMO, so vague as to be almost > meaningless. > > Pippin: > When an author who professes no love for the form finds herself willy > nilly writing of castles, unicorns, good and evil enchanters, etc. I > would say there is some correspondence at work. And if she has no > great affection for these things in themselves, then perhaps we > might profitably look at the structure. Which, for many of her readers, would bring us back to eye-rolling again. The problem with strict structural patterns such as the Hero's Journey is that, when followed closely, they are BORING. So boring, in fact, that they are rapidly becoming meaningless. It is true, of course, that there are certain tropes and symbols that resonate deeply with humans of a given culture over long periods of time. But eventually they wear out as time shifts, as tastes change, as basic beliefs evolve, and as people become too aware of the structures and symbols in their own right. In our own culture the Hero's Journey has been so driven into the dirt that many of us stick our fingers in our ears and start humming loudly every time the name Joseph Campbell is mentioned. Unfortunately, JKR does seem to slavishly follow certain standard patterns. One hopes, however, that she is creative enough not to follow them to their dreary end. If she does, I would say she knows a great deal about how to tell a story in the Middle Ages. Her ability to tell a satisfying and meaningful story to a modern audience is sadly somewhat lacking, however. Lupinlore From erikog at one.net Mon Aug 15 02:44:50 2005 From: erikog at one.net (Krista7) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:44:50 -0000 Subject: Plot holes (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <42FFAFD8.5090004@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137651 Overheard between Kathy and Eggplant (I believe)-- >>> Kathy writes: >>> I'm sure that JKR will find a way for Snape to contact someone a >>> little more receptive than you. If not, I can see some serious >>> plot holes looming in book 7. >> >> Do tell what plot holes would ensure from this: I'm interested, >> as I'm thinking of ways for Snape to make contact.... I'd just like to step in to point out that Snape doesn't *have* to be in contact with the Order in order for him to be of massive importance to the side of the good. All he has to do, ultimately, is to do what he's been doing all along--save Harry Potter. I believe his job right now is to sit at Voldie's elbow, possibly undermine the DE effort as much as he can (think of his behavior with Umbridge), wait for the final confrontation, and then, at a crucial moment (say, V's attack on Harry) turn on Voldie. If I can steal an image from "Star Wars" just for the heck of it, I think Snape is going to be that rocket Luke fired into the heart of the Death Star, the destroyer from within. (Or Trojan Horse, if you want a more classical reference.) Just my thoughts, Krista From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Mon Aug 15 03:04:28 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 03:04:28 -0000 Subject: Why Lily didn't have to die. In-Reply-To: <002a01c5a11b$308b1f60$3421f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137652 Eggplant wrote: We know that Lilly didn't go out with James until the 7th year so in the 6th she must have been going out with somebody else. Snape and Lilly must have been in the same potions class in their 6th and the term "Half Blood Prince" sounds like a pet nickname a girl might give her boyfriend. Perhaps Lilly was the real potions genius and Snape was flunking out so Lilly wrote all that stuff in Snape's book to help him, Hermione did say it looked like a girl's writing and the notes never said "I am the Half Blood Prince" it said "This book is the property of the Half Blood Prince". Cheryl: Lily was a popular girl, but it doesn't follow that she was necessarily dating anyone just because she didn't date James until later. I, too, wondered about Hermione's comment about the writing being like a girl's, but then the invented spells, including the ones modified and crossed out until they were "right" are also, presumably, in the same handwriting, and Snape admitted to them having been his "inventions," so I am thinking they, and the potion modifications were, in fact, Snape's. I was inclined to think that he wrote them to help Lily out, but it seems this textbook was used in the sixth year and I doubt that Lily would have accepted Snape's help after him calling her "mudblood" in their fifth year, so maybe not...or maybe Snape was using this text as he was advanced in potions, or because his mom happened to own a copy. Sherry wrote: My big problem with the whole idea of lily and Snape ever having dated is the worst memory scene. He called her a mudblood in fifth year. We are given to understand that the word "mudblood" is a filthy word. I equate it to being as horrible as the word "nigger" from a white person to a black person. I can't imagine anyone being called that one year and then dating that same person the next year. I know it's one thing that could explain Voldemort offering to let lily live, but I just can't believe she'd go out with someone who called her that. I sure hope the whole why save lily issue is resolved in the last book. Cheryl: I agree with your conception of the word mudblood: in the WW, it is a horrible, racist word. However, I think that there may be a chance that they were friends (see my prior posts about whether it was possible they were childhood friends) or slightly more at some point before this incident. I think Lily's reaction to being called "mudblood" may have been similar to Harry's reaction to learning what the Sectumsempra spell really did: "He felt stunned; it was as though a beloved pet had turned suddenly savage." When Snape calls here this, her reaction almost seems like surprise to me, a fitting reaction if Snape is someone who had been a friend in the past. From oppen at mycns.net Mon Aug 15 03:37:54 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:37:54 -0500 Subject: Apollyon Pringle Message-ID: <005301c5a14a$b9bdc240$a5560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 137653 I noticed something that I don't think anybody else has. Apollyon Pringle's first name is that of a demon from the Book of Revelations. I wonder if the reason he's no longer a caretaker, or at Hogwarts, is because he's in Azkaban. --Eric Oppen From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 15 03:32:41 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 03:32:41 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black /Re: Snape, loyaltie and the fine thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137654 > Alla: > I think Order could have arranged a little kidnapping from Spinner's > End, if they wanted to, no? I am not so sure that Snape informed DD > about that little development, but plot wise yes, I am sure JKR > has a part for Peter to play at the end. > Potioncat: I was responding to the comment that Snape is responsible for Sirius' death because if Snape had turned Pettigrew in, Serius would be cleared. My interpretation is that DD, for some reason, does not want Peter turned in. I take it that you think Snape knew where Peter was, but did not tell DD? I keep meaning to look up the MAGIC DISHWASHER post, because it had something to do with Peter being allowed to escape back in PoA. All those complicated theories make my head spin, but they certainly are interesting. > Alla: > > Because you think Voldie sent Peter to spy on Snape? I suppose. BUT > if Snape considers Peter's presence to be sort of " massage of his > ego", I think he could be pleased at such development > > Isn't it nice to have one of his school enemies as his servant, > basically as his slave? :-) Potioncat: My reading of "Spinner's End" is that officially, Pettigrew is suppose to be helping Snape with something, but he is of course, spying on Snape for LV. That seems to be everyone's take, so maybe he isn't ;-) But I don't think either of them like the arrangement. Particularly if this was Snape's home, he wouldn't want Pettigrew there. > Miguel: > > > But at the end, finally freed of Dumbledore's restrains and > instead > > of releasing all the hatred, he gives Harry a last immensely > > important lesson on Occlumensy. > > > Alla: > > OR Snape is gloating at Harry. I think my interpretation is as valid as yours. :-) Potioncat: Another vote for last minute lessons. Which suddenly reminds me of one of the books saying that Flitwick let the kids play, but McGonagall and Snape kept on teaching to the last minute of term. I've forgotten which book it was in. From rgillen33 at msn.com Mon Aug 15 03:30:35 2005 From: rgillen33 at msn.com (Rachel) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 03:30:35 -0000 Subject: Redemption (Was: Plot holes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137655 Kathy: > > There has to be some plot line in the next book that allows this > > redemption and Harry's understanding of it. > Nora: > I object here to the 'there has to be'. :) Only if Snape is the > character earmarked for redemption or revelation. Personally, I > think that Peter's stock on that front has risen dramatically, but I > make no predictions. I think we may already have our redemption storyline. I'm not sure about the redemption of Snape, as his status is so ambiguous right now; I'm fairly certain that Pettigrew will have some sort of, if not redemption, at least positive role to play (ala Gollum), but we may already have a redemption story in Regulus Black, if, in fact, he is R.A.B. We assume Regulus was a pure-blood fanatic to some extent, purely because his delightful mother thought he was a perfect son. We know he joined the Death Eaters, which isn't something you can do by simply showing up for a meeting, so he likely had Dark intentions on some level. If then, he did steal Voldemort's horcrux with the intention of destroying it, we have a very powerful redemption story already. That's quite a turn-around for one young man to experience in a short amount of time. And done without the influence of his OotP brother and friends, Regulus truly may have stood alone in his fight. Kreacher notwithstanding, of course. :) Rachel From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 04:25:27 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:25:27 -0000 Subject: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137656 Mara writes: (Snip) So, here it is, take it in whatever way seems to further discussion. :) There is a lot of thoughtful talk and speculation referring to the "Power" that Harry has that LV is missing, with Love being the most likely contender. What I propose is that there is a fundamental feeling/experience that is a precursor or prerequisite for what we usually call Love. This experience is *attachment*. From a psychological perspective, attachment is a complex concept, but it develops in part from a child's experience of being loved -- seeing the proverbial "gleam" in the other's eye (wonder if DD's "gleam" is connected somehow..hmm.). Attachment is resilient and evolving, and forms the bedrock of a person's personality development. Deb writes: I agree! It is also at this very early stage of development that a person develops... or does not develop... a basic sense of trust... trust that his/her needs will be met. And it is necessary for optimum psychological growth that needs be met with caring and tenderness by one or two primary caregivers. It is not enough to simply feed, cloth, bathe, and provide warmth. Infants who spend much time in places like the orphanage where Tom Riddle was raised probably have many diferent care givers who were probably rushed and had little time to spend with an infant who as Mrs Cole said "was odd right from the start, ... he didn't cry" (paraphrase here). Where as the nurturing that Harry got was from his parents who did love him and were emotionally and intellectually able to give to a infant in so many ways beyond basic care. Mara writes: Anyway, we know that even though Harry spent almost 11 years with the Dursleys, that he was a much loved and wanted infant, and most likely experienced that very early bonding with others who love him. We see parents who attempted to protect him and died rather than "move aside" and leave him open to attack. We see other adults who went out of their way to protect him and watch over him even from afar. In direct contrast, we have Tom Riddle, who, we learn, is markedly disconnected from others and at least in one important instance, rejects attempts to provide guidance, support or nurturing from a potentially supportive adult (and who seems to have kept his emotional distance from others, charming or controlling them instead). We see a family pattern of poor attachments (Marvolo's treatment of Merope as a glaring example) culminating in abandonment of her newborn by Merope (abandonment as experienced by Tom, for sure, but possibly to be seen as a choice to abandon if we presume that she potentially *could have* prevented her own death and taken care of her child). Deb writes: plus the history of instability and possible genetic consequences of generations of "the habit of marrying their cousins" as Dumbledore tells Harry after their pensieve visit to the Gaunt's hovel. Mara writes: This pattern continues as they each grow. Tom quite literally disconnected himself from identification with his family (rejecting his "filthy muggle father's" name), and, fundamentally, from association with others that don't include dominating and controlling them (which grows from viewing others as objects to manipulate, which we see even in his early childhood). As many others have noted, he has no actual relationships, trusts nobody (you don't need to regularly use legilimency if you actually trust...), and has even torn his soul to pieces in order to preserve a fantasy of immortality. And cold-blooded murder, of course, is the ultimate expression of disconnection from humanity, which can develop (in part) from never having experienced that fundamental connection to another. This all makes me think more about LV's obsession with immortality, and the terror that he must feel about death -- when you consider that he is not really tied to anybody or anything -- there is nobody with whom he has shared a close relationship, nobody who (as Harry does with his parents) will think of him, remember him, and be better b/c of having known him. In short, he would not live on after his death (might be infamous, but not live on in the way that James and Lily do for so many people). Harry is another story altogether. As many have noted, Harry doesn't survive because he is a fabulous wizard with endless skills or power (though I do think that he is powerful but still much less schooled and experienced than many others). He has survived, I think, for several reasons. Each of these reasons, I think, reflects what is unique about Harry. Instead of feeling an intense longing for acceptance, approval or admiration (which would not be surprising given the isolation and rejection he has experienced), Harry withstands pressure to "go with the program" and finally *belong* and be widely approved of, because he knows that "the program" is wrong (Umbridge, Scrimgeour). He is able to know this and hold on to it, I think, because he holds on to his emotional memory of his parents which links up with the experience of the relationships he forms in the WW which reflect those relationships (they knew his parents and loved them) and help him to develop this capacity not only to love and form attachments, but also to be true to himself (which reflects a certain security and groundedness). Deb writes: Harry walks and talks his truth to the best of his ability given his age and lack of experience in the WW. And earns respect for doing so. I also think Harry is a bit of an empath... even before learning of Legilimency he picks up on peoples emotional states quite well. Besides Legilimency is the forcible reading of emotions and memories ... Harry does not seem to need to throw this spell at anyone to be able to read their emotional state. Mara writes: Harry feels a basic responsibility to other people -- that "saving people thing" that Hermione referred to in OOP. Harry doesn't want to "save" others for his own glory or self-importance (in contrast to Snape who was devastated to lose the affirmation of the Order of the Merlin at the end of POA). He has the emotional capacity to care and to see himself not in grandiose ways (unlike "Lord" Voldemort) but as a responsible part of a larger whole. Because he doesn't seek admiration or aggrandizement, Harry readily turns to others for help. Early on, he tends to turn to his friends rather than adults (though he does gradually try out and form adult attachments with Hagrid, then Sirius and finally, Dumbledore). Given that he has not had current experience trusting and turning to adults, this makes sense. He doesn't expect to be taken care of, and doesn't expect to be thought of as special. Yet he does have an ability to share himself with others and let himself be cared about by them. Deb writes: Indeed Harry is thrilled to have people near by who he can turn to! I would imagine that it was quite amazing for Harry to realize that the adults at Hogwarts (for the most part) were very willing to answer his questions. What a refreshing change from the Dursleys ror whom "Don't ask questions" was a guiding principle! And when he chooses to not seek help or advise from an adult, his peer friends seem quite capable of helping him find most of the answers he needs. Mara writes: Next, Harry feels real connection to other people, including an attachment to his parents who he only vaguely remembers, but whose love and caring for him has been *internalized* by him -- this internalization is key, I think. Someone (Del?) wrote beautifully about the possibility that the "opposite of a Horcrux" would mean magically adding something to your soul through an act of (possibly sacrificial) love (or, I would posit, deep attachment). I think that one way to think about this enhancing or adding to your soul is in terms of the feeling you get when you are deeply connected to someone else, and how this feels magical, and as if you are somehow better as a result. When you are changed this way as a result of a relationship with another person, you have essentially taken in part of that person -- kept them alive inside of you. This makes Harry immeasureably more powerful than LV. I believe that Harry has done this through his memory of his parents, even has he has wrestled with his changing knowledge of his father and reconciling that with the wished for father he had held inside and which probably sustained him at the Dursleys. This internalized version of his parents is a bridge that allows him to feel connected to Lupin and then, ultimately, to Sirius, initially as links to his parents, but later, in their own right. Deb writes: And I think the experience of the Mirror of Erised helped because he was able to see the physical resemblences through several generations ... including one old man who had Harry's knobby knees - plus of course James' unruly hair, and Lily's green eyes. I think this kind of kinship recognition would be a really powerful AHA experience "Yes! I do belong. I do fit into this family. These are my people". Mara writes: It was this basic appreciation for relationships (respect for what the echo of Cedric asked of him, and a vague realization of what this would mean for Cedric's parents) that led him to risk himself to take Cedric's body back with him in GOF. It allows him to tolerate abuse and injustice at the hands of the ministry without breaking because it anchors him. This is reflected as well in his feelings towards Dumbledore -- loyalty, love -- attachment to DD. This is what, I believe, called Fawkes to Harry in the CoS. It is also, IMO, what caused Harry to smile and laugh at DD's funeral. Even though DD was gone (won't get into what sort of gone or how gone here ;-p), he is not *really* gone so long as others are still loyal to him, attached to him. He lives on in those who love him. These are the sorts of experiences that buffer someone who has lived through unthinkable loss. What is still vague for me is why Harry's capacity for attachment holds so much more power than that of other people in the WW. I wonder if the clause "born to those who have thrice defied him" is meaningful here. Harry's parents also demonstrated great courage, strength of character, loyalty and loving attachment -- maybe even rejecting the lure of LV (DD commented that Harry avoided being seduced by the dark side, makes me wonder how others in the original Order might have been approached by LV to join up) and escaping him three times. There is a chain being formed here, and maybe it's the links in the chain all holding together -- generationally and amongst peers who support one another, that will make all the difference in the final confrontation. Deb writes: I think this may be is another of JKR's magical 7s... I think that the line or prophecy you mentioned refers to not just Lily and James as a couple defying LV three times... but that Lily and James each defied him three times .... and the AK gone wrong makes Harry # 7 in this group of defiances. My biggest fear for Harry is that he still does not completely understand that he MUST NOT use any Unforgiveable Curse because to do so would be to sink to LVs level and might cause damage to the pure and precious state of his soul. Fortunately his attempt to throw the Crucio Curse at Bellatrix did not do much because his soul is indeed too pure to generate the necessary hatred to fuel that curse. But he keeps trying... I think Snape's "No Unforgivable Curses for you, Potter" was on the order of a command and a warning. Harry needs to let go of his anger, find peace in his heart, and find out how to utilize his great power of love to defeat this manifestation of evil - LV. To the best of my knowledge we have never seen any of the OOP utilize a UC! Even Moody as Auror avoided that even when ordered by Crouch in the first war against LV to "terminate DEs with extreme prejudice". (paraphrasing again) Mara writes: It seems to me that the prophecy sets this up -- that LV in essence chose Harry and in so doing, set things in motion for Harry to develop these capacities in a more intense way than most. Do others think that this is what makes Harry the "chosen one?" Stepping back into the shadows now, but very happy to talk about this with anybody who wants to :) Mara (who tried really hard not to sound like a psychologist, but who probably still does... and who *loves* reading hpfgu :)) Deb writes: very nice post Mara! I hope to read more of your thoughts soon... no need to be shy... there are several psychologists - licensed and armchair varieties both - here on hpfgu - knowledgable discourse is always welcome Deb From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 15 04:30:56 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:30:56 -0000 Subject: FILK: Angel in Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137657 I just completed my musical Harry and the Amazing 50% Blooded Turncoat, based on Lloyd Webber's Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. The whole thing is available at http://home.att.net/~coriolan/musical/turncoat.htm Meanwhile, here are the last two songs: You'll Be an Angel in Seven To the tune of One More Angel in Heaven THE SCENE: The grounds of Hogwarts, before the lake. Denizens of the magic society assemble to pay their respects to the fallen Headmaster of Hogwarts. As FAWKES flaps in, whistling a lazy Western-sounding tune, HAGRID enters, bearing the body of DUMBLEDORE HAGRID Dumble, it's awful we lost ya to Snapey's evil crime A tragic and adverse event what comes of trustin' slime Though you no longer walk the earth You'll not completely go In your old office you're portrayed in chiaroscuro ALL: You'll be our angel in Seven We'll have your guidance, fer sure Dumble, we're proud we can see ya Head off to your next adventure McGONAGALL, FLITWICK, SPROUT & SLUGHORN Today we'll all be a-weepin' Tonight we're all gonna grieve But Dumbledore, if we stay loyal Then you will not truly leave THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX Dumble, we're full of sorrow Our hearts are struck with shock We'll send off to your reward In your best pair of socks CHORUS OF RAVENCLAW STUDENTS We're here to hear some final words We trust they'll keep concise CHORUS OF HUFFLEPUFF STUDENTS Although it's possible your death's A narrative device HARRY I once led Dumbledore's Army I'm his man through thin and through thick LUPIN & TONKS Dumble, we solemn pledge to ya Our first-born will be named "Wulfric" FUDGE, UMBRIDGE & PERCY We have all come to pay tribute To you, so brave and adroit SCRIMEGOUR But Dumble, we hope we can figure How best this mess to exploit HERMIONE (spoken) Will we learn how your hand got blackened? Your eyes' triumphal gloat? Or ascertain what Aberforth Was doin' to that goat? GRAWP & ARABELLA FIGG Help nitwits no more to blubber Let oddments be tweaked SHACKLEBOLT & MOODY And may his curse be placed on those Who Book Six spoilers leaked WEASLEY FAMILY & FLEUR You'll be our angel in Seven As we go out after Snape CHORUS OF GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS We're gonna send him to prison That git oughta then be gang-raped ALL: Today we'll all be a-weepin' Tonight we're all gonna grieve But Dumbledore, if we stay loyal Then you will not truly leave . Then you will not truly leave . Then you will not truly leave . (DUMBLEDORE'S body seemingly bursts into flames - before being encased in a white tomb - as a phoenix joyfully shoots skyward. A shower of lemon drops falls from the sky) PHOENIX: Yee-ha! Many Memes Review To the tune of Any Dream Will Do (Gradually the crowd disperses, leaving HARRY alone, deep in thought, before the tomb of DUMBLEDORE. Suddenly, SNAPE Apparates onto the scene ? and if you had read Hogwarts: A History, you would already know that it is possible to Apparate in and out of the school if it is in connection with the finale of a musical. SNAPE casts the highly complex Musicus-Tempus-Ex Spell (i.e., Musical Time Out), which a wizard uses when he wants to safely sing a duet with a deadly antagonist.) HARRY/SNAPE So ends our book, next up's the last one You/I pulled a fast one, pleasing You-Know-Who Right now online, our fans all argue, New theories construe, Many memes review. HARRY Does this turncoat work for Lord Voldy? SNAPE What Dumble told me, did I follow through? HARRY/SNAPE Is Hogwarts School now hors de combat? Or will Dumble come back? Will he live anew? HARRY A false horcrux, a mystery, And who in hell is R.A.B? SNAPE Our crisis now takes a hiatus We are all on hold HARRY/SNAPE He's/I'm the problem - or the solution? There is much confusion, is he/am I false or true? As we approach the final climax Who has got who's back? SNAPE (bowing ironically) But till then, adieu! (SNAPE Apparates away just as quickly as he arrived. And whatever ideas we debating fans may entertain, HARRY has already reached his decision, and concludes our musical with an imperious cry that is likely to echo throughout Book Seven.) HARRY Give me that turncoat's throat That half-blood's turncoat throat! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 06:51:47 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:51:47 -0000 Subject: what I don't understand.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137658 Been posting here for at the very least, two years or more......... Most hate peter pettigrew, some loathe snape..few like either.. All agree that Voldemort is the most evil of evil... I have to ask would anyone take anything to drink from either Snape or Wormtail... Guessing from recent posts I would gather that most may take a drink from Snape...eww! Gathering the Moody perspectives...(sniffing and drinking nothing if you know not where it came from)... I really wonder why on earth Snape would ask wormtail to serve him and his guests. I loathe snape...I'm sure a great many others do to...but it strikes me that snape must be in a coma to insist that PP serve him, or any guests, any food or wine!!! So, in my mind, I must wonder if, PP/WT slipped something into the elf-made-wine to make snape/cissy/bella wreckless....(why would snpe make the vow otherwise?) Hence, the UBV,.....Snape may have initially thought HP was the target, rather than DD was. When did Snape learned the true target? Probably after Harry called him a coward! Probably wrong...but have hauntings in my mind...haunting so strong that peeves is stuck in my hauntins cob webs..*snicker* DD From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 07:26:40 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:26:40 -0000 Subject: Apollyon Pringle In-Reply-To: <005301c5a14a$b9bdc240$a5560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137659 "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Apollyon Pringle's first name is that of a demon from the Book of > Revelations. > > I wonder if the reason he's no longer a caretaker, or at Hogwarts, is > because he's in Azkaban. I think Apollyon is also a demon that Christian fights in "Pilgrim's Progress", which I must read one day. The name means "destruction", and has apocalyptic connotations, so it's pretty funny paired with Pringle. It's like being named Prissy Hellfire or something. My own guess is that JKR named him Apollyon just because she wanted a scary-sounding name, to let us know that Argus Filch is but the latest in a long line of nasty Hogwarts caretakers. I don't expect Apollyon to be mentioned again, but we shall see! -oiboyz From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 00:14:23 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:14:23 -0000 Subject: Harrys new Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137660 Carol wrote: > We've only seen animal Patroni but that doesn't mean a Patronus *has* to take animal form. (Absence of evidence is not proof.) I see no reason why it can't be a person. Suppose that Snape's Patronus turns out to be Dumbledore? Think how much *that* would give away, > especially if he's still able to cast it after killing Dumbledore > A Patronus is white magic. The fact that Snape can (or could) cast one suggests to me that he really is on the side of good--or was until he fell under the curse of the DADA position and made the Unbreakable Vow. J: If I remember, JKR was asked about this in an interview. Someone said, what form is Snape's patronus? Here's the quote: I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor Snape's Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious. JK Rowling replies -> Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but that's because it would give so much away. A lot of people take that to mean that its a phoenix or dumbledore or something like that. Now, I don't necessarily believe this myself, but it could just be because someone as evil as Snape can't cast a Patronus, it being a very white-magicy type of spell. J From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 00:17:25 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:17:25 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff and DE question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137661 Carol: > Anyway, to summarize, I think Karkaroff is English despite his name > but had ties to Durmstrang, perhaps through his father and that he's > in his fifties or more likely sixties in GoF. It's possible that he > (and Dolohov) had connections to Grindelwald that we'll discover in > Book 7. Voldemort could have placed one of the Horcruxes in his > keeping (without revealing that it was a Horcrus), just as he > entrusted the diary to Lucius Malfoy. That could be one reason why > Voldemort had him killed rather than merely punishing him for his > cowardice as he stated he would do in the graveyard scene. At any > rate, it's a plausible idea and fits nicely with the secret passage > between Hogwarts and Durmstrang. J: I think this might be an excellent idea, particularly in light of this nugget JK dropped in a pre-HBP interview: bertieana: Will we be seeing Krum again any time soon? JK Rowling replies -> You will see Krum again, though not soon. So we didn't see him in the HBP, so he definitely has a role to play. So far as we know, I think, he's still in Bulgaria, unless the WW is so much like ours that he's been bought by an English quidditch team and brought to Britain. I like the idea of Krum helping Harry find a Horcrux Karkarrof left hidden in Durmstrang. J From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 07:36:25 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:36:25 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137662 > Potioncat: > > >> What I'd like to know, is how it was that Black was cleared and > his will was read within weeks of his death? What evidence was > > presented that couldn't have been presented before?: We don't know that Sirius actually was cleared, do we? I just assumed that his will, as well as the key to his Gringott's vault and any other worthwhile possessions, were left in the care of a trusted friend who knew of his innocence-- no doubt someone in the Order. There would be no need for the wizarding world at large to be involved, since Harry was the only beneficiary. Dumbledore could read the will and tell Harry, "It's all yours now," and that would be the end of that. -oiboyz, who regrets that Sirius never got to live free and happy again From leora at nycap.rr.com Mon Aug 15 04:01:39 2005 From: leora at nycap.rr.com (musicgal3001) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:01:39 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux (was Re: HBP: Assorted threads in one) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137663 Hello. First time poster here, so don't mind me if I'm unintentionally breaking about 15 rules by not keeping the old message in this post. I find it too distracting from the new message. Well, I have something to say about Harry being a Horcrux. He's not. He can't be-and it's not just because I've decided that Harry Potter MUST live-no. It's because you need a spell to encase a soul, and there was no time to encase a bit of soul into Harry or his scar, or his teddy bear, or whatever. As said in HBP, not sure what page as I don't have the book right here, but it's in the chapter "Horcruxes". Professor Slughorn is talking to 16 or 17 year old Tom Riddle. "Encase. But how-" "There is a spell. I don't know. Don't ask me!" As you can see, even though Slughorn doesn't know which spell to use, he does know that there is a spell involved. Secondly, Dumbledore speaks the truth in these books. It has been said that Dumbledore is almost like JK Rowling herself, telling the reader the truth and what is real. This may not be true in EVERY aspect, (aka-Snape...I have my own theories on that...) I believe it applies to this: "Anybody who wishes to kill Lord Voldemort must destroy the part of his sould that is in his body last." Obviously paraphrasing like mad, but still...you get my drift. Harry can't just kill himself before he kills Voldemort because it would take him one step further. Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort, and unless one of you would like to start a mad theory that Harry makes a few Horcruxes himself...the "Harry-the-Horcrux" theory kinda falls apart at the details. I hope I'm doing this posting thing correctly. Someone tell me if I'm doing it wrong. Thank you. Someone please reply. Leora From auburnvixen at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 04:24:15 2005 From: auburnvixen at hotmail.com (ponygirl_auburn_vixen) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:24:15 -0000 Subject: Hiding place for a Horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137664 coming out of lurking mode for a mo...sorry if someone else has come up with this one already, and i missed it... I just thought of a perfect hiding place for a Horcrux - the Room of Requirement. When Harry had to stash the Potions book in there, it was crammed full of others' stashes and castaways. Who'd ever "accidentally" come across a Horcrux and actually know what it was? I like the Chamber of Secrets and smashed secret passageway theories, too. auburn (who is surprised to find herself coming down on the Good!Snape side...though it may be because she thinks Alan Rickman is hot) From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 08:58:35 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:58:35 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux (was Re: HBP: Assorted threads in one) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137665 Hi Leora, Welcome to the list. >Hello. First time poster here, so don't mind me if I'm >unintentionally breaking about 15 rules by not keeping the old >message in this post. I find it too distracting from the new >message. Saraquel: Well I like to put something in when replying directly to what someone has posted, so that people know exactly whose arguments you are replying to, and if they haven't read the original post, it allows them to pick up mid-thread. If you make sure the chevrons are in there, the reader can easily skip the quotes if they want to. Leora wrote: >Well, I have something to say about Harry being a Horcrux. He's >not. It's because you need a spell to encase a soul, and >there was no time to encase a bit of soul into Harry or his scar, >or his teddy bear, or whatever. "Anybody who wishes to kill >Lord Voldemort must destroy the part of his soul that is in his >body last." Obviously paraphrasing like mad, but still...you get my >drift. Harry can't just kill himself before he kills Voldemort. Sarauqel: Absolutely, Leora, I get your drift and agree with it. There is the Harry-commits-suicide-taking-Voldemort-with-him angle, but I don't find that one particularly attractive ? well you wouldn't would you, big mess on the floor and all that. I also have another strong objection to the theory that Harry is a Horcrux. We saw what the Diary Horcrux did as soon as it came into contact with a sentient being. It sucked on Ginny's life force and tried its absolute best to get itself a real living body again. It doesn't strike me that Harry has been fighting a piece of Voldemort's soul all these years. And if Voldemort wanted Harry dead, and let's face it he does, and the piece of his soul in Harry knows that Harry is its enemy because it would only be there because Voldemort was trying to kill Harry at the time, then wouldn't that bit of soul have sucked the life out of defenceless baby Harry about 2 nanoseconds after he became a Horcrux ? real Voldemort being bodiless at the time and desperately in need of one. You get my drift :-) Saraquel From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 15 09:46:07 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:46:07 -0400 Subject: why did DD need Snape? /was It's over, Snape is evil Message-ID: <008001c5a17e$2a6524b0$12c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137666 Tonks: I agree that Snape is still working for DD. But I have aother question. DD went to Snape when he was injured and wanted Snape when he drank the poison. So is this just because Snape is a better Potions Master than Poppy or is there something else that we don't know about. Why is it Snape that DD needs? Why is it Snape that was able to save him? I wonder if there is more to this that Snape just being a good potions master. Just how good is he? Better than someone whose job it is to be a healer?? There must be some deep secret here. What is it? CathyD now: Because this stuff, this stuff LV uses, is Dark Magic at it's finest (worst?). Stuff only Snape can understand. Not sweet little Madam Pomfrey. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 15 10:19:59 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:19:59 -0400 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil Message-ID: <008401c5a182$e4802170$12c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Yes, that is exactly what I would have Snape do. After Dumbledore's > death Harry chased the Death Eaters and defeated several of them one > on one, I have no doubt when he was healthy Dumbledore could have > taken on all of them at once and I think Snape could too. You will > note that when Snape entered the room all the other Death Eaters > seemed terrified with him, and although Harry had little difficulty > dealing with the other Death Eaters he had much more trouble with > Snape. the big question is....could DD ever be healthy again? And yes, the other DE's were terrified of Snape. I think Snape could have taken out DD at any time during the 16 years at Hogwarts if he wanted to. Especially since DD trusted him so much - it would have been easy. That is why this act seems to simple for just to show that Snape is EVIL. CathyD: Well said, colebiancardi. Several part of HBP made it, to me, just too plain that Snape is EVIL. Way too plain. Like JKR was rubbing our face in it (to get all the Good!Snapers on side) all the while laughing up her sleeve. Snape could have taken out DD anytime, I'm sure they were alone together many times: when Snape was telling DD the Dark Mark on his arm was returning; when, as someone else just said, Snape was *healing* him from the horcrux curse, during the argument by the forbidden forest, during all the times Snape begged for the DADA job. > I never liked Snape and was always a bit mystified why so many felt > that deep down he's really just a sweetheart, I don't think ANYONE thinks or even stated that Snape was a sweetheart, deep down inside. I think we can all agree that he is a sadistic bastard. Jeez..... I don't know where you are getting the impression that the folks that believe in Good!Snape think he is a big, fluffy bunny under that greasy exterior - LOL. CathyD: Well, it's quite obvious, Eggplant, that you never liked Snape and still don't, however... I have to agree with colebiancardi again. I've never seen a Good!Snape fan say Snape is a sweetheart (pussycat, in Eggplant's words). I certainly don't think he is. He's a nasty, awful bit of work...if you only consider the way he treats students. He's a great ball of cat gack under the sofa. I think Snape's capacity for evil could make Voldemort blush. However, he turned his back on that capacity when he joined the Order of the Phoenix, back there sometime before the Potters were murdered. Back then when he fully redeemed himself to Dumbledore through an act that only they (and JKR) yet know. >but before HBP JKR could > perhaps morphed him into a good guy, or at least into a less > despicable character; but now JKR has burned her bridges as far as > Snape is concerned. After what we saw in HBP if she tries to turn > Snape into a good guy the last book in the Potter series will be a > disaster because killing Dumbledore is quite simply unforgivable. > Deep-undercover spies are often depicted as *bad* or not good. But they DO work for the good team. I believe that is Snape - he isn't a good man, but he does work for the good team. That is his strength. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that Snape will turn into a Dumbledore-like character in book 7 - in fact, I believe Snape will die in book 7 - but in a martyr-like way - saving either Draco or paving the way for Harry to defeat Voldemort. CathyD: Yes, I'm expecting Snape's demise in book 7 as well, but not before Harry realizes what Snape truly is: Dumbledore's man. "He isn't a good man, but he does work for the good team"... wow, an excellent reason for being so incensed that Harry called him a coward. Snape turned from evil to join Dumbledore. Quite brave, really, knowing what LV would do to him when he found out. And Dumbledore threw him right back in with the serpents. Quite brave, again, knowing that your every word, every thought, every move had to be calculated and guarded. BTW, to those of you who like the 'fluffy bunny' term....I have now spewed tea on my computer twice.... Sheesh! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rt11guru at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 10:41:01 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:41:01 -0000 Subject: Muggle technology as a weapon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137668 I think it would be a hoot if Arthur, Hermione, and Harry surprise a DE with a weapon or artifact of Muggle technology that the DEs don't understand and therefore have no defense for. It would be doubly sweet if it were Lucius Malfoy. Guru From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 11:10:46 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:10:46 -0000 Subject: why did DD need Snape? /was It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: <008001c5a17e$2a6524b0$12c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137670 Tonks: I agree that Snape is still working for DD. But I have aother question. DD went to Snape when he was injured and wanted Snape when he drank the poison. So is this just because Snape is a better Potions Master than Poppy or is there something else that we don't know about. Why is it Snape that DD needs? Why is it Snape that was able to save him? I wonder if there is more to this that Snape just being a good potions master. Just how good is he? Better than someone whose job it is to be a healer?? There must be some deep secret here. What is it? CathyD now: Because this stuff, this stuff LV uses, is Dark Magic at it's finest (worst?). Stuff only Snape can understand. Not sweet little Madam Pomfrey. Deb writes: And Snape is a healer! Think of the scene in the bathroom after Harry used the Sectumsempra curse on Malfoy: "Pushing Harry roughly aside, he knelt over malfoy, drew his wand, and traced it over the deep wounds Harry's curse had made, muttering an incantation that sounded almost like a song. The flow of blood seemed to ease; Snape wiped the residue from Malfoy's face and repeated his spell. Now the wounds seemed to be knitting". Could it be that Snape is able to imitate phoenix song? Or if it is a true incantation then some very powerful healer invented it(and if so where/when/how did Snape learn it) .... or did Snape create this spell too? It maybe that since he (as the HBP) created the Sectumsempra Curse he also created the countercurse. No matter what you may think of Snape, he is a very powerful wizard! I also suspect that Snape was LV's Potions Master when he was first in the DEs... he may have been the one who created the potion in the bowl in the cave. So he would be the one to know any antidote that might exisit. See also my post at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134971 for some other thoughts on what that potion was intended to do. Deb From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 11:18:35 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:18:35 -0000 Subject: why did DD need Snape? /was It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137671 OOOPs wrong link... :( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135340 this is the one about what's in that bowl Deb From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Mon Aug 15 11:21:13 2005 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:21:13 +0100 Subject: FW: Tom Riddle - placed in danger as a child? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137673 Big apologies - I accidentally hit send before I finished this email! I noticed on a re-read this interesting comment from when DD goes to the orphanage to visit the young TR: "My mother can't have been magic, or she wouldn't have died" said Riddle, more to himself than Dumbledore. (chapter 13 "The Secret Riddle, page 257 UK edition) At this point, TR has only just been told by DD that he is a wizard. Until then, he did not understand why he was able to do the things he did - in fact he was worried that DD had come to take him to an asylum. He knows nothing as yet of the wizarding world. So, how did he know that wizards and witches have longer lifespans, and are more resilient, than muggles? The only explanation for this comment, that I can see, is that he himself had been in danger or had his life threatened at some point in his young life, and had survived without really understanding how. So this leads to all sorts of interesting speculation. Maybe one of the children he bullied fought back but was unable to harm Tom. Maybe one of the staff at the orphanage was cruel and tried to hurt him, but was unable to. Is it possible that Marvolo, when he was released from Azkhaban and discovered Merope's marriage to Tom Senior, found out that there was a child from this marriage and went after him with the intention of killing him? In any event, I bet this conversation with DD was the point at which TR started to think about immortality and how it could be achieved. Not sure if this adds anything to the plot, but I thought it was interesting. Comments and speculation most welcome :-) Beth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 15 11:31:20 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:31:20 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > We don't know that Sirius actually was cleared, do we? I just assumed > that his will, as well as the key to his Gringott's vault and any > other worthwhile possessions, were left in the care of a trusted > friend who knew of his innocence-- no doubt someone in the Order. > There would be no need for the wizarding world at large to be > involved, since Harry was the only beneficiary. Dumbledore could read > the will and tell Harry, "It's all yours now," and that would be the > end of that. Marianne: We know of no public statements from the Ministry or any mentions in what passes for the press in the WW that Sirius was cleared. All we really have are Fudge's comments in Chapter 1: "Black's dead. Turns out we were - er- mistaken about Black. He was innocent after all. And he wasn't in league with He-Who-Should-Not-Be- Named either. I mean," he added defensively..."all the evidence pointed - we had more than fifty eyewitnesses - but, anyway, as I say, he's dead..." Knowing the Ministry's usual way of operating, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply corrected their records with the swish of a quill and that was the end of it. It wouldn't be Ministerial style for them to openly and publicly admit to their mistake. They'd do it all quietly. In that passage, Fudge goes on to say that there will be an inquiry into Black's murder within the Ministry. That's the last we hear of that. Was Fudge just blowing smoke or did an inquiry occur? Marianne From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 11:44:08 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:44:08 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137675 Isn't anyone interested in Slughorn? I posted a couple of days ago and no-one at all responded. I was postulating that he could have faked Dumbledore's death; maybe that's why I got no bites? Or I just got swallowed up by the other posts. (Thinking hopefully.) I find him to be a compelling character. It's #137521, in case someone was interested and missed it. hg. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 11:43:20 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:43:20 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137676 Saraquel wrote: I also have another strong objection to the theory that Harry is a Horcrux. We saw what the Diary Horcrux did as soon as it came into contact with a sentient being. It sucked on Ginny's life force and tried its absolute best to get itself a real living body again. It doesn't strike me that Harry has been fighting a piece of Voldemort's soul all these years. And if Voldemort wanted Harry dead, and let's face it he does, and the piece of his soul in Harry knows that Harry is its enemy because it would only be there because Voldemort was trying to kill Harry at the time, then wouldn't that bit of soul have sucked the life out of defenceless baby Harry about 2 nanoseconds after he became a Horcrux ? real Voldemort being bodiless at the time and desperately in need of one. You get my drift :-) vmonte: Good point, Saraquel. But there are other clues that point to the fact that Harry may contain the last Horcrux. In Chamber of Secrets there are two separate instances where Harry says something curious. The first time is when he sees the name Tom Riddle and gets deja vu. He looks at Tom's name and seems to remember that Tom was a childhood friend he had forgotten. The other time he looks at the diary and wishes that he could finish the story that was started there. Both comments are strange. I wonder if Lily's spell somehow blasted a little bit of Voldemort inside of Harry. Perhaps this little bit of Tom was stronger when Harry was a baby, but in time fused into Harry's personality. Dumbledore's decision to keep Harry away from the WW for the first 10 years of his life may have been a good idea. A wizard family might have noticed something that the Dursely's did not. Petunia may have just thought that Harry behavior was strange due to the fact that he was probably a wizard. Could this little piece of Tom now contain love because of Harry (and Lily's magic)? What is the importance of Dumbledore's gleam? Does Harry's blood carry a "love" virus? Voldemort has always underestimated the power of love. So, what would happen if the last horcrux were to merge back into Voldemort? Vivian MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. Okay, one more each! From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 15 13:24:21 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:24:21 -0000 Subject: If Snape told DD about the UV, how would DD have responded? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137677 Carol asked: [Suppose that Snape is in fact loyal to Dumbledore, that he realizes he has been trapped by a combination of Voldemort's malice and his own pride and folly (agreeing to take the vow and thinking he can slither out of it through cleverness; not anticipating the terrible third clause.) Suppose that he goes to Dumbledore and says something like, "Headmaster, forgive me. I've done a stupid and terrible thing." And then he tells the story, the true story with the complete vow and what he saw in Narcissa's mind. What, based on our canonical knowledge of Dumbledore, which we know includes total faith in Snape, would Dumbledore have said to him?] Potioncat: For this post I am looking only at the fact that Snape did take the vow, and assuming that he knew that DD was Draco's target--leaving other interpretations for different threads. I think DD looked Snape squarely in the eye and asked, "Why did you do such a thing? I haven't seen anything this stupid since you went into the tunnel after Remus when you were a teenager." Well, maybe not. Before July 16 we knew nothing about Unbreakable Vows, and now we know--not much more. It makes "read the fine print" pale in comparison, and it's beyond me why anyone would make an Unbreakable Vow. I wonder how common they are in the WW. Apparently the twins had the ability to put one in force if Arthur was so upset by that incident. Magic contracts are fairly common in fairy tales and folklore. Deals with the Devil are frequent themes and the hero, in spite of making an iron clad deal, always manages to out wit the Devil and go free. In those stories though, the hero usually stands to gain something by the deal. I'm not sure what Snape had to gain here. The one thing that happened, as someone said in another thread, is that these three made a deal that was actually going against LV, and started a small but visible crack in their loyalty to him. But, the question was about Dumbledore. Snape has put his life and Dumbledore's at great risk. DD has of course, put Snape at risk before. He also put his own students at risk by hosting the Triwizard Tournament. Risk to life seems to be an acceptable challenge in the WW. Snape told Narcissa that he thought LV intended him to do the deed in the end. It's very likely (if Snape did already know about "The Plan") that DD and Snape had discussed this too. Something along the line of, "Headmaster, the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to kill you. I'm sure he expects the boy to fail. At some point, he will order me to take on the task instead. I believe this assignment is as much to punish Lucius as it is to destroy you. But at any rate, the Dark Lord is no hurry for me to make the attempt. For the time being I am more useful to him as a spy." And, after some thought and a lemondrop, DD would say, "Voldemort has made a poor choice. This may be the wedge we need to cause the Malfoys to break away from the Death Eaters, and if they break away, others will follow. Severus, do anything in your power to foster discontent in Narcissa's heart." Then, some time later, Snape comes back and confesses that he has made an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa. After some thought, DD would say, "This changes little, Severus. We already knew that you would be ordered to kill me, and to fail would mean death for you. We have both been at Mortal Peril for a great number of years now. The Vow has made keeping us both alive a bit more difficult. But Narcissa's wording leaves us some space. We will have to do the best we can. If fortune goes our way, we will have overcome Lord Voldemort before Draco makes a serious attempt on my life. And my boy, the magic protecting the Horcruxes may make the vow null and void any way." >From this point, I believe, DD and Snape make and adjust plans as needed. I seriously doubt that they started out with a plan for Snape to kill DD. But as the year moved on, they would have had to discuss different options. And at any given moment, it would as likely have ended in Snape's death as Dumbledore's. From bjebenstreit at aol.com Mon Aug 15 13:47:54 2005 From: bjebenstreit at aol.com (bjebenstreit at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:47:54 EDT Subject: Why Lily didn't have to die. Message-ID: <6.4af96d08.3031f70a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137678 Sherry wrote: My big problem with the whole idea of lily and Snape ever having dated is the worst memory scene. He called her a mudblood in fifth year. We are given to understand that the word "mudblood" is a filthy word. I equate it to being as horrible as the word "nigger" from a white person to a black person. I can't imagine anyone being called that one year and then dating that same person the next year. I know it's one thing that could explain Voldemort offering to let lily live, but I just can't believe she'd go out with someone who called her that. I sure hope the whole why save lily issue is resolved in the last book. Cheryl: I agree with your conception of the word mudblood: in the WW, it is a horrible, racist word. However, I think that there may be a chance that they were friends (see my prior posts about whether it was possible they were childhood friends) or slightly more at some point before this incident. I think Lily's reaction to being called "mudblood" may have been similar to Harry's reaction to learning what the Sectumsempra spell really did: "He felt stunned; it was as though a beloved pet had turned suddenly savage." When Snape calls here this, her reaction almost seems like surprise to me, a fitting reaction if Snape is someone who had been a friend in the past. Ethanol: I think it is possible that Lily and Snape became friends *after* this incident. The pensieve scene happened at the end of the fifth year, before students decided on their N.E.W.T. courses. From what we've seen, we can tell that Lily was neither close to James nor Snape. We don't know if James took N.E.W.T. level potions or not. He'd have to, if he wanted to become an auror, but we don't know if he was one. We know for certain that Snape and Lily took N.E.W.T. level potions, so at least those two worked in a small group (N.E.W.T. level potions didn't struck me as crowded), possibly the three, if James did take part in it. So working two years together on a subject they both liked *had* to change the Snape/Lily relationship in some way. Maybe not dating, but possibly friendship or at least respect. If I had to bet my money, I'd say that Snape was in love with Lily, but didn't act on it. Possibly because James's rescue of Snape redeemed James in Lily's eyes enough to reconsider him and notch him up to boyfriend material. Now the standing complaint against this scenario is Snape calling Lily "mudblood" in the pensieve scene. Would he call that somebody he secretely loved? Maybe not - but that isn't my point. Could he fall in love - or maybe "only" become friends with her after this insult? Yes, I think so - *that* is my point. Pity is I don't have more cannon for this. Not a direct one at least. However, we've only ever seen Snape hark on James, never ever on Lily. During his potion's classes with Harry, he never, ever abused her name and he certainly had enough oportunity to put Harry's supposed inabilities in potions down on Lily being a mudblood. And here is another point: Rowling at least thinks it is possible to fall in love with somebody you've insulted and hurt and have this someone return these feelings. Who? Ron and Hermione! Compare page 187 of PS (UK edition): "It's no wonder no one can stand her," he said to Harry as they pushed their way into the crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly." Someone knocked into Harry as they hurried past them. It was Hermione. Harry caught a glance of her face - and was startled to see she was in tears. "I think she heard you." "So?" said Ron, but he looked a bit uncomfortable. "She must've noticed she's got no friends." Uhmmm... that is the girl whose name Ron says in his sleep, after he nearly died in HPB. Yes, admittedly it was not a no-no word like "mudblood", but he did hurt her badly. I wonder - what would Ron's worst memory be? I wonder, if the scene in the pensieve is Snape's worst memory not because he was ridiculed by James. But because in his fury, he struck out at Lily - somebody he came to value later, if too late. What do you think? Greetings, Ethanol [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cat_kind at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 13:50:12 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:50:12 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137679 hermionegallo wrote: > Isn't anyone interested in Slughorn? I posted a couple of days ago and > no-one at all responded. I was postulating that he could have faked > Dumbledore's death; maybe that's why I got no bites? Or I just got > swallowed up by the other posts. (Thinking hopefully.) I find him to > be a compelling character. > > It's #137521, in case someone was interested and missed it. > > hg. catkind: I'm interested in Slughorn, but it's hard to refute your theory if you don't tell us why you think it's true. On the face of it it seems highly unlikely - Slughorn is so totally in it for himself, and Dumbledore is very blatantly himself in that last interview. Or have I misunderstood what you're suggesting? I'm interested in Slughorn, though, because I'm not at all sure what we're supposed to make of him. To me, he's the sort of person I really truly hate - he's bigoted and public-schoolish and selfish, but he's right about people often enough to make it hard to condemn his biases and charming to boot. Personally, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. catkind From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 14:07:34 2005 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:07:34 -0000 Subject: The Opposite of a Horcrux; Harry's protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Nicholas wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137620 : > > << My conclusion is that Dumbledore set up his own death as the > required sacrifice to create continued protection for Harry into > adulthood. >> > > I have a feeling that Opposite of a Horcrux (Incrux?) doesn't work if > the self-sacrificing death was 'set up' by the self-sacrificer. Hmmm. This has been in the back of my mind for a while and between this statement and the discussion about what Harry would see in the Pensieve, I was wondering...is there any first hand account of what really happened when Harry's parents died. Was there an eyewitness? I know that I *should* know this but it seems awfully important. How does DD know what happened that night? That lily did/did not know what she was giving Harry? Could Dumbledore have been mistaken about this as well? I mean, did Dumbledore go to the crime scene and do one of those "Well, the way the bodies are laid out I would assume..." Or are we to assume that there is some type of magic that allowed Dumbledore to become akin to this information. I know it is easy to say "JK wrote Dumbledore to say it so it is a fact that it is how it went down." So, is that the case? I have a feeling that I am missing some important detail here about what we really know. Could anyone tell me what that is? Trish **who just started my traditional re-read of the series that I do every time a new one comes out (I re-read OoP, Read HBP, Read HBP again and now am re-reading PS and going in order again, do I have a problem or what??!!) From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 14:09:27 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:09:27 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black /Re: Snape, loyaltie and the fine thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137681 Alla: I think Order could have arranged a little kidnapping from Spinner'sEnd, if they wanted to, no? I am not so sure that Snape informed DD about that little development, but plot wise yes, I am sure JKR has a part for Peter to play at the end. Potioncat: I was responding to the comment that Snape is responsible for Sirius' death because if Snape had turned Pettigrew in, Serius would be cleared. My interpretation is that DD, for some reason, does not want Peter turned in. I take it that you think Snape knew where Peter was, but did not tell DD? Marianne S. Dumbledore says in POA (p.417 US) "Petigrew owes his life to you. You havce sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt.... When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter" then later on the same page "But trust me... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Petigrew's life." So, I think there something will come of having this life debt to repay in book 7, and I don't think this means a redeemed Peter, just a Peter that has no choice but to repay the debt. I have a feeling that Dumbledore knows exactly where Peter is, and is glad to have Snape keep aneye on him, just as Voldemort is glad to have Wormtail keep an eye on Snape. Potioncat: Another vote for last minute lessons. Which suddenly reminds me of one of the books saying that Flitwick let the kids play, but McGonagall and Snape kept on teaching to the last minute of term. I've forgotten which book it was in. Marianne S: I vote for last minute lessons as well, and it was before the Christmas break in GoF where Flitwick let the kids play but Snape and McGonagall didn't, if I remember correctly. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 15 14:11:38 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:11:38 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137682 > hermionegallo wrote: >I was postulating that he could have faked >Dumbledore's death; maybe that's why I got no bites? Or I just >got swallowed up by the other posts. (Thinking hopefully.) I find >him to be a compelling character. Catkind wrote: > I'm interested in Slughorn, though, because I'm not at all sure what > we're supposed to make of him. To me, he's the sort of person I > really truly hate - he's bigoted and public-schoolish and selfish, >but he's right about people often enough to make it hard to condemn >his biases and charming to boot. > > Personally, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. Potioncat: As for the Dumbledore theory: "He's dead, Jim." Slughorn now...for some reason I always think it's Slugworth...is that a character in another story? And I always think of Hagrid and his Flesh Eating Slug Repellent. Not a very pleasant name, is it? Slughorn collects people. He's a real networker. He remind me a bit of Bagman who may or may not have been tricked into revealing information to the DEs. If Slughorn likes to be around the important people, and some of those important people are DEs...what does he do? We know that in Harry's 6th year, Slughorn avoids taking any DE- connected students into his club.I wonder about the Marauders' time. We think he had Snape in his club. Was he aware of which ones were connected, or was he not so particular then? He's never joined the DEs, although he knew Tom Riddle; and he's nervous about them now. I wonder if he owed anything to DEs in the last war? He's younger than DD, he seems in good health, why did hte retire? Was he strongly encouraged by someone? Someone who wanted an opening for a new teacher? From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 15 14:12:32 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:12:32 -0000 Subject: Why Lily didn't have to die. In-Reply-To: <6.4af96d08.3031f70a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bjebenstreit at a... wrote: > Ethanol wrote: > > And here is another point: Rowling at least thinks it is possible to fall in > love with somebody > you've insulted and hurt and have this someone return these feelings. Who? > Ron and > Hermione! > > Compare page 187 of PS (UK edition): > > "It's no wonder no one can stand her," he said to Harry as they pushed their > way into the > crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly." > Someone knocked into Harry as they hurried past them. It was Hermione. Harry > caught a > glance of her face - and was startled to see she was in tears. > "I think she heard you." > "So?" said Ron, but he looked a bit uncomfortable. "She must've noticed > she's got > no friends." > however, that was before they knew each other. They were still 1st years and didn't have a chance to *bond*. They began a friendship within 2 months after starting there - after the Troll scene. In comparison, by the time the pensive scene rolled around, Snape, Lily, James, etc all had been at Hogwarts for 5 years. If one's perception hasn't changed for the better by that time, I don't think it would have. The problem is we don't really know anything about the relationship between Snape & Lily. Just because he doesn't say anything bad about Lily to Harry doesn't mean anything. Snape doesn't attack Neville's parents, either. Does that mean he has a *crush* on Neville's parents? No. The reason why Snape goes all out for James is because old hatreds die hard - James is Snape's bete noire, even dead. And Snape *owed* James a life debt - which had to really piss off Snape, as now he has transferred that life debt to Harry. Lily, according to Lupin, was *kind* to everyone - I assume she was the protector of small puppy dogs, geeks, the weak and oddballs all over - and Snape fell into that catagory when she saw him being ganged up on. Now, if it was just James & Snape - would she have stepped in? Also, the back & forth between James & Lily is more in tune with Ron & Hermoine. The exchange between Snape & Lily is more in tune with Draco & Hermoine. There is a big difference between the two dynamics. She also thought Snape was *as bad as* James. James loved her - enough to change his ways and stop being the bullying toe-rag that he was. Snape joined the DE's instead. colebiancardi From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Mon Aug 15 14:21:50 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:21:50 -0000 Subject: what I don't understand.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: I really wonder why on earth Snape would ask wormtail to serve him > and his guests. > > I loathe snape...I'm sure a great many others do to...but it strikes > me that snape must be in a coma to insist that PP serve him, or any > guests, any food or wine!!! While, I personally, wouldn't want to accept any drinks from Wormtail, I don't think Snape needs to be too worried, at this point, about Wormtail acting against him (unless LV ordered him to slip something into the drink). I recall Sirius' assessment of him (when it was questioned in POA why he never took the opportunity to hurt Harry) as being someone who never did anything if there wasn't something in it for himself. I think this is true still, so I don't expect he would act against Snape on his own as this would bring about punishment from LV. Now, I hope that in book 7 we see Wormtail paying back his life debt to Harry in some way, possibly, for once acting against his own self-interest (though the way he pays the life debt back may turn out to be unintentional). Would I want to accept any drinks/potions from Snape? Well, in earlier books, and if I was student/staff at Hogwarts and I was in need...yes I would. Look at the perfect Wolfsbane potion for Lupin and the fake Veritaserum, etc... I don't have to like him for this to be the case. He happens to be the best with potions and has, in past books, not slipped anyone anything harmful to my knowledge. After HBP, however, I would have reservations, to say the least. I think, despite what happened in the tower, Snape remains ambiguous, thus the plethora of discussions about Snape on this list. Cheryl From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 15 14:22:49 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:22:49 -0000 Subject: FW: Tom Riddle - placed in danger as a child? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137685 Beth: > I noticed on a re-read this interesting comment from when DD goes > to the orphanage to visit the young TR: > > "My mother can't have been magic, or she wouldn't have died" said > Riddle, more to himself than Dumbledore. (chapter 13 "The Secret > Riddle, page 257 UK edition) > > At this point, TR has only just been told by DD that he is a > wizard. Until then, he did not understand why he was able to do > the things he did - in fact he was worried that DD had come to > take him to an asylum. He knows nothing as yet of the wizarding > world. So, how did he know that wizards and witches have longer > lifespans, and are more resilient, than muggles? Jen: I thought that comment was supposed to signal the seed planted in Tom that magical powers can defeat even death. That's the core of his perverted thinking, isn't it? That with magic comes power, the ultimate power being immortality. And nothing he learns at Hogwarts disabuses him of that notion, in fact, I suspect the more he learned about magical power, coupled with discovering his bizarre and unstable family history, the more entrenched he became in the idea that he could be the most powerful wizard by never dying. But this scene points out something that bothered me a little bit when Dumbledore and Harry talk about Merope's death. Dumbledore says: "Merope refused to raise her wand even to save her own life" and Harry responds: "She wouldn't even stay alive for her own son?" (Chap. 13, p. 262, US). We know magic can't keep someone from dying, so what did they mean exactly? It was very vague why she died, and in fact sounded more like a broken heart than a physical problem! But I guess maybe DD is saying that if something happened at the delivery, say Merope was losing a lot of blood, she could have used magic to intervene and instead chose not to? And Harry's comment sounds almost like the boy Tom Riddle--"she wouldn't stay alive for her son?" like she could have intervened with magic and stopped herself from dying. Confusing. Beth: > The only explanation for this comment, that I can see, is that he > himself had been in danger or had his life threatened at some > point in his young life, and had survived without really > understanding how. > So this leads to all sorts of interesting speculation. Maybe one > of the children he bullied fought back but was unable to harm > Tom. Maybe one of the staff at the orphanage was cruel and tried > to hurt him, but was unable to. Jen: I would love to know how Tom discovered his magical power, what the circumstances were that led him to conciously using his powers to hurt others. But I doubt we're going to get any more backstory on him. I think that scene was to prove how very different Harry and TR were, even by age 11. Harry never chose to think of himself as special or different, he never wondered about those 'accidents' when magic helped him get out of a jam, and he never intentionally tried to hurt people with his magical ability. It's actually a more interesting parallel if TR wasn't ever hurt or bullied like Harry was; Harry at least would have a reason to try to control and use his powers and never does, while Tom was never bullied or hurt yet still had that impulse for controlling others at a young age. Beth: >In any event, I bet this conversation with DD was the point at > which TR started to think about immortality and how it could be > achieved. Jen: Oops, didn't see this part until after I wrote my first paragraph --I obviously agree with you on this!! Jen From jjjjjulie at aol.com Mon Aug 15 14:26:15 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:26:15 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" > wrote: > > > From a more literary point of view: JKR isn't really given to > > cheap stunts in the books. I can't see an episode in Book 7 > > where someone suddenly gets superhuman powers to turn the tide. > > All of Harry's victories have come as a result of study and/or > > practice, coupled with his bravery. > > Hickengruendler: > > Like when the Ford Anglia saved Harry and Ron from the spiders? Or > when Grawp appeared right in time to chase off the centaurs? Or > when first the Order members and later Dumbledore appeared exactly > at th right time in the Department of Mysteries to help Harry and > Neville? Or when Fawkes appeared in the Chamber of Secrets because > Harry believed in Dumbledore? I agree that Harry is very brave and > has also learnt a lot of things that were helpful to him in the > fight, but JKR never was above using a Deus Ex Machina, if she felt > it was necessary. None of these are examples of deus ex machina. Let's take the car as an example: 1. The car is used twice as a flying car, first to rescue Harry from the Dursleys and then for Harry and Ron to get to Hogwarts. 2. The car is shown to have a mind of its own when it ejects Harry and Ron from it after it hits the Whomping Willow. 3. The car goes off to live in the forest. In that we know 1. the car is magical 2. it can act on its own and make decisions on its own 3. it lives in the forest, how is it coming to their rescue in the forest an example of deux ex machina? With respect to the rest of the examples: all of these people/characters/animals/items exist prior to their use. We know who Fawkes is before he rescues Harry. We meet Grawp before he rescues the boys. We know all about the Order of the Phoenix and who is in it. Having these items we know about come to save the day are not examples of dei ex machinis as they are not entirely new characters, completely unrelated to the story as previously told, who are dropped from the sky. They are previous plot elements who turn up in places we might expect them: the car and Grawp do live in the forest after all. We know Fawkes does come to those who are loyal to Dumbledore. Having a character who previously told us that he or she could not do any magic whatsoever suddenly do magic and save Harry's life is a deus ex machina. There is a big difference between that and the car, for example. > I don't think that JKR's "but" after her answer about Petunia > indicates that Petunia is the one, who performed magic late in > life. I think with "but" she meant that Petunia is a muggle, but > her situation is comparable to that of a Squib, since she, too, has > background information about the wizarding world, without being > able to be a part of it. I don't think JKR's "but" means anything at all. Nothing at all. The interview we have is a transcription of a live interview. People speak differently than they write, they misspeak, they use ummms and hmmms, they start sentences they don't intend to finish, and they often carry on conversations with the questioner, the moderator and/or the audience. IMO way to much is being read into an interjection from a live interview. jujube From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 15 14:27:44 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:27:44 -0000 Subject: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137687 Lupinlore: > > Unfortunately, JKR does seem to slavishly follow certain standard > patterns. One hopes, however, that she is creative enough not to > follow them to their dreary end. If she does, I would say she knows > a great deal about how to tell a story in the Middle Ages. Her > ability to tell a satisfying and meaningful story to a modern > audience is sadly somewhat lacking, however. Pippin: ROTFLMAO! At last we know the secret of Jo's success. She's boring and lacks the ability to tell a satisfying and meaningful story. I'm glad we got that cleared up :-) Seriously, using a medieval formula doesn't mean that you have a medieval message. For example, the medieval mind held that earthly laws were a reflection of divine order, while many modern thinkers see them as inventions adopted by societies in order to meet their needs. To the middle ages, where earthly laws differed from what they considered to be the heavenly law, it was not a reflection of different needs, it was just wrong. Which view of law do you see in Jo's work? Pippin From jjjjjulie at aol.com Mon Aug 15 14:30:27 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:30:27 -0000 Subject: Magic in desperate circumstances (was Re: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > I forgot to add, we already know that it is possible for someone to > show their magical powers when they are in a life threatening > situation. Neville started to bounce when he was dropped out of the > window, which was the first time ever he showed any signs of magic. > He was only eight at this point and therefore can't be the character > JKR meant in her interview, but this shows, that it is possible for > characters in the Potterverse to show some magical powers for the > first time, when they are in a dangerous situation. But JKR says that magic usually shows itself by age 11. If Neville showed signs of magic at age 8, then he's certainly within the timeperiod that she has set up. It's late, in childhood perhaps, but it's not an example of someone showing his magical powers late in life as he's 8 and the normal cutoff age is 11. Also, whether Neville did magic as a result of a dangerous situation or not doesn't have any bearing on the issue--Neville *is* a wizard and his powers would have shown themselves eventually. jujube From monalila662 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 15 14:33:26 2005 From: monalila662 at earthlink.net (lisa graves) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:33:26 -0000 Subject: Funerals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137689 In HBP, we are shown a wizard funeral. People sitting, mourning, speeches (from a man in black? I'd really like to know who this is btw) etc. All of DD's friends, supporters, colleagues, etc come to pay their respect. Which got me thinking about Sirius' death. I realize there was no body to bury... but wouldn't there be some kind of ceremony? Wouldn't it have given some closure for Harry and members of the OOTP? Isn't it a bit strange that noone did anything? At the very least, he WAS a black- someone should've had a "proper" goodbye. This also led me to think about wizard funerals in general. Why bury one of the greatest wizards- wouldn't his body be in danger of becoming an inferi with Voldewart running around? Just the sight of DD as an inferi could be enough to send people staight to St. Mungo's. anyone have any thoughts on this? From kjones at telus.net Mon Aug 15 15:05:42 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:05:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry is Not a Horcrux (was Re: HBP: Assorted threads in one) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4300AF46.5010102@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137690 musicgal3001 wrote: > Well, I have something to say about Harry being a Horcrux. He's not. > He can't be-and it's not just because I've decided that Harry Potter > MUST live-no. It's because you need a spell to encase a soul, and > there was no time to encase a bit of soul into Harry or his scar, or > his teddy bear, or whatever. > As said in HBP, not sure what page as I don't have the book right > here, but it's in the chapter "Horcruxes". Professor Slughorn is > talking to 16 or 17 year old Tom Riddle. > "Encase. But how-" > "There is a spell. I don't know. Don't ask me!" As you can see, even > though Slughorn doesn't know which spell to use, he does know that > there is a spell involved. > > Secondly, Dumbledore speaks the truth in these books. It has been > said that Dumbledore is almost like JK Rowling herself, telling the > reader the truth and what is real. This may not be true in EVERY > aspect, (aka-Snape...I have my own theories on that...) I believe it > applies to this: "Anybody who wishes to kill Lord Voldemort must > destroy the part of his sould that is in his body last." Obviously > paraphrasing like mad, but still...you get my drift. Harry can't just > kill himself before he kills Voldemort because it would take him one > step further. Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort, and > unless one of you would like to start a mad theory that Harry makes a > few Horcruxes himself...the "Harry-the-Horcrux" theory kinda falls > apart at the details. > Leora Kathy writes: There are a few of us who suspect Harry might be an *accidental * horcrux, although there are differences in how we see the books play out. 1. No one knows, including Voldemort what actually happened when his killing curse back-fired. He had no intention of making a horcrux out of Harry. He intended to kill him. 2. We know that there is some connection between Harry and Voldemort. 3. We don't know how a living horcrux would work because nobody would do such a thing on purpose. 4. When Voldemort was vaporized by Lily's protection, he wasn't killed because of at least 5 other horcruxes. It wouldn't necessarily have a detrimental effect on Harry. 5. In OotP Dumbledore speaks of the "plan", and how he made a mistake because "...I cared more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed." 6. The power to vanquish the Dark Lord might not be any special power or skill. It might just be the willingness to sacrifice his own life to destroy Voldemort, thus destroying the last horcrux. 7. Dumbledore placed Snape right beside Voldemort to make sure that this happens either at Harry's request, or without it. 8. JKR has never given any indication that Harry will live past book 7. She has always answered any remarks pertaining to Harry's longevity by saying that he might not live. She hasn't even tried to avoid the question really. I hope Harry survives but I really think that she is going to finish him off. KJ From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 15:25:21 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:25:21 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137692 Oh Vivian, big smile on face, reading your post as I am at this very moment locked in brain aching combat with Harry's scar and Voldemort's powers!! Vivian wrote: > I wonder if Lily's spell somehow blasted a little bit of Voldemort > inside of Harry. Perhaps this little bit of Tom was stronger when > Harry was a baby, but in time fused into Harry's personality. Saraquel: I definitely think that there is something of Voldemort in Harry. In fact, DD thinks so as well, but as we know from HBP, DD does not think it is a Horcrux. Uk Ed COS p245 "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure " "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said thunderstruck. "It certainly seems so." UK Ed HBP p473 "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed." IMO Dumbledore knows more than me about Voldemort's Horcruxes, and as far as I'm concerned, if DD says it failed, it failed. I really, really, really don't think Harry is one. However, he definitely has some of Voldemort's powers in him and therein lies the mystery of GH. I was trying to find a quote from one of JKR's interviews where she says that Lily did not cast a spell at GH when she died, all she did was stand in front of Harry, but something about the way she did it was unique. Unfortunately I couldn't find it, maybe someone can point us in the right direction, I think it was one of the interviews after HBP. Hence, I don't think it was anything Lily did. It was something that happened when Voldemort did whatever he did and I think it is linked to the scar on Harry's forehead which I think marked Harry as his equal (I've got a potion brewing on that one and may post something in the next couple of days). Vivian > Could this little piece of Tom now contain love because of Harry (and > Lily's magic)? What is the importance of Dumbledore's gleam? Does > Harry's blood carry a "love" virus? > > Voldemort has always underestimated the power of love. So, what > would happen if the last horcrux were to merge back into Voldemort? Saraquel: There is something special from Lily's sacrifice now in Harry's body and I presume his blood also. DD says this to Harry at the end of PS p216 "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realise love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever. It is in your very skin." There has been a lot of speculation about this on the list lately if you haven't read it, it starts with post 136797 No Aks ? Just the Ministry Room of Love, then jumps to 137115 ? you should be able to follow it from there. Saraquel On the trail of Godric's Hollow From rmatovic at ssk.com Mon Aug 15 15:45:16 2005 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:45:16 -0000 Subject: Chivalric romances and HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137693 > > Pippin: > That percentage of readers will be revealing their ignorance of > chivalric legends, from which all three works are derived. > On this topic, Book 7 will not have the same structure as books 1 - 6 because Harry isn't returning to school. But the number of horcruxes does set it up to have the structure of a chivalric quest ... the hero earns his way into the final contest/adventure by three "tests" along the way. GOF also had this structure (as well as the school year structure). Rebecca From docmara at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 05:13:08 2005 From: docmara at comcast.net (docmara1) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:13:08 -0000 Subject: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137694 > Mara writes: > (Snip) > There is a lot of thoughtful talk and speculation referring to > the "Power" that Harry has that LV is missing, with Love being > the most likely contender. What I propose is that there is a > fundamental feeling/experience that is a precursor or > prerequisite for what we usually call Love. This experience > is *attachment*. > Deb writes: > I also think Harry is a bit of an empath... even before > learning of Legilimency he picks up on peoples emotional states > quite well. Besides Legilimency is the forcible reading of > emotions and memories ... Harry does not seem to need to throw > this spell at anyone to be able to read their emotional state. Absolutely agree! He's attuned to others -- isn't blinded by how they want him to see things...seems to move past that rather easily for the most part. > Deb writes: > And I think the experience of the Mirror of Erised helped > because he was able to see the physical resemblences through > several generations ... including one old man who had Harry's > knobby knees - plus of course James' unruly hair, and Lily's > green eyes. I think this kind of kinship recognition would be a > really powerful AHA experience "Yes! I do belong. I do fit into > this family. These are my people". Oh, man, trying to snip here No: HPFGUIDX 137695 Maybe this has already been suggested, but I did not find it. My apologies if it has been discussed to pieces already: When Snape (apparently) repented and came to Dumbledore to join the order, Dumbledore could have decided to trust him not on his honest face and touching tale, but on basis of a carefully worded unbreakable vow to fight Voldemort as a double agent whatever it took. Thus, DD would know Snape was still faithful to their agreement simply because Snape was still alive. Regardless of Snape being evil or good, he would therefore be one of the most thrustworthy people around DD, simply because being anything else would kill him at the spot. By taking a second vow, this time for Narcissa, Snape was in a tight corner, but I am still inclined to think that also the second vow was in agreement with DD's bigger plan. If this should be the case, somebody will have been the bonder between DD and Snape, and will know about Snape not being a traitor. Somebody who keeps his mouth shut at all cost, for the plan will fail if Voldemort's trust in Snape is wavering. Aberforth..? At least somebody that at the crucial moment towards the end of book 7 can convince Harry that Snape is his ally after all. Mimbeltonia From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 15 16:32:05 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:32:05 -0000 Subject: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137696 Mara: > We see a family pattern of poor attachments (Marvolo's > treatment of Merope as a glaring example) culminating in > abandonment of her newborn by Merope (abandonment as experienced > by Tom, for sure, but possibly to be seen as a choice to abandon > if we presume that she potentially *could have* prevented her own > death and taken care of her child). Jen: Why did Merope die? I asked this question already today in another post, but will give it another go here :-). Young, relatively healthy Merope should not have died for no particular reason. I honestly found myself thinking of Padme in the recent Star Wars movie, dying in childbirth for no explicable reason other than heartbreak! Is that what we're supposed to believe, Merope died of a broken heart?! Also, Dumbledore said Merope 'refused to raise her wand even to save her own life' (Secret Riddle chapter). I thought there was a limit to what magic could do and not do? Harry also says something to the effect of "she wouldn't stay alive even for her own son?" There it is again! Magic can keep you from dying. If this is true, than Tom Riddle wasn't wrong to think magic holds the power to immortality! But back to your point Mara---sorry for straying, that scene just bothers me. I feel like there must be more to it, it's so oblique. Originally Tom thought his mom couldn't have been a witch if she died. Besides that being the root of his obsession with defeating death, I do wonder if he ever found out more about his mom's *choice* to die in his search for his family history. Also, given how far down the road of evil he'd gone, even during his time at Hogwarts, you wonder if that realization of purposeful abandonment even fazed him. Mara: > This all makes me think more about LV's obsession with > immortality, and the terror that he must feel about death -- when > you consider that he is not really tied to anybody or anything -- > there is nobody with whom he has shared a close relationship, > nobody who (as Harry does with his parents) will think of him, > remember him, and be better b/c of having known him. In short, he > would not live on after his death (might be infamous, but not live > on in the way that James and Lily do for so many people). Jen: Dumbledore remarks several times on Voldemort's fear of death, most notably in the cave surrounded by Inferi. His fear must be immense. The more he disconnects from people and delves into Dark Magic, the more intense this fear must grow and take on a life of its own. He's a slave to pursuing immortality by the time we meet him. His quest has become his master. Mara: > Instead of feeling an intense longing for acceptance, approval or > admiration (which would not be surprising given the isolation and > rejection he has experienced), Harry withstands pressure to "go > with the program" and finally *belong* and be widely approved of, > because he knows that "the program" is wrong (Umbridge, > Scrimgeour). He is able to know this and hold on to it, I think, > because he holds on to his emotional memory of his parents which > links up with the experience of the relationships he forms in the > WW which reflect those relationships (they knew his parents and >loved them)..... Jen: I think it was incredibly important for Harry to hear his parents were good, loving people when he entered the WW, especially after getting absolutely no information about them from the Dursleys. Sending Hagrid to initiate Harry into the WW and being the one to tell Harry about his parents was no accident :). Hagrid loved James and Lily unconditionally, and already felt attached to Harry because he saved him from the ruins of Godric's Hollow. Hagrid was the perfect person for the job. No matter that he left out a few details about James , it was better for Harry to hear the imperfections later on, after he learned about their goodness. Mara: > Next, Harry feels real connection to other people, including an > attachment to his parents who he only vaguely remembers, but whose > love and caring for him has been *internalized* by him -- this > internalization is key, I think. Someone (Del?) wrote beautifully > about the possibility that the "opposite of a Horcrux" would mean > magically adding something to your soul through an act of > (possibly sacrificial) love (or, I would posit, deep attachment). > I think that one way to think about this enhancing or adding to > your soul is in terms of the feeling you get when you are deeply > connected to someone else, and how this feels magical, and as if > you are somehow better as a result. When you are changed this way > as a result of a relationship with another person, you have > essentially taken in part of that person -- kept them alive inside > of you. This makes Harry immeasureably more powerful than LV. Jen: Argh, the great mystery about Lily's sacrifice. I keep running in circles over this issue and may confuse myself yet again here. I go back and forth over whether we know all there is to know about Lily's sacrifice & what that sacrifice did for Harry. We know her choice to sacrifice left a power in Harry's blood. We know Dumbledore decided to trust this power by asking Petunia to take Harry in, and thus sealing Harry's blood protection with an extra charm DD placed on Harry. We think, or at least I do, that Voldemort taking Harry's blood weakened him rather than gave him the added power he was hoping for. The missing part for me is, will Lily's sacrifice offer other benefits we haven't seen yet or will the weakening of Voldemort be the last part to Lily's sacrifice? I guess that's why I'm not sure whether Harry got another literal magical element from Lily's sacrifice, i.e. an addition to his soul, when we know its power is literally in his blood. Not to mention the beautiful symbolism of her sarcrifice. I do think there's another related part to her sarifice, though--it strengthens every time Voldemort attmepts to kill, possess, or otherwise harm Harry in any way. I'm convinced Harry could die by anyone else's hand, but the more Voldemort pursues him, the more invincible Harry seems to become. That must be the blood sacrifice at work. Mara: > It was this basic appreciation for relationships (respect for what > the echo of Cedric asked of him, and a vague realization of what > this would mean for Cedric's parents) that led him to risk himself > to take Cedric's body back with him in GOF. It allows him to > tolerate abuse and injustice at the hands of the ministry without > breaking because it anchors him. This is reflected as well in his > feelings towards Dumbledore -- loyalty, love -- attachment to DD. > This is what, I believe, called Fawkes to Harry in the CoS. It is > also, IMO, what caused Harry to smile and laugh at DD's funeral. > Even though DD was gone (won't get into what sort of gone or how > gone here ;-p), he is not *really* gone so long as others are > still loyal to him, attached to him. He lives on in those who > love him. Jen: Dumbledore's man through and through? Harry isn't the only one who needs to know Dumbledore will live on. :( But Dumbledore is the one who taught him about finding the ones we love inside ourselves when we truly need them. So far Harry has brought forth his mother's love when Quirrell couldn't touch him, and his father's love when he casts his Patronus that night on the lake. I hope to see Dumbledore's love express itself in some literal way in Book 7. Just as an aside, I think Sirius' literal love for Harry was expressed by sacrificing himself. I really felt after OOTP that his strong belief in 'dying for his friends' was not just symbolic in Harry's case, but something he vowed to do in the ceremony to make him Harry's godfather. The choice of Sirius was also not an accident. Two parents of a child born under a prophecy know that appointing a guardian is no easy decision. That person will be in great danger, and Sirius was the type of person who accepted that danger with no questions asked. Sure, it took him 15 years or so, but JKR has promised we will understand why he died. Mara: > It seems to me that the prophecy sets this up -- that LV in > essence chose Harry and in so doing, set things in motion for > Harry to develop these capacities in a more intense way than > most. Do others think that this is what makes Harry the "chosen > one?" Jen: Tying to the idea that Lily's sacrifice strengthens Harry every time Harry defies Voldemort, Dumbledore really made a case for Voldemort defeating *himself* in the Horcrux chapter:" He heard the prophecy and he leapt into action, with the result that he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him uniquely deadly weapons" (chap. 23, p. 510). I don't know how it will happen, but somehow Voldemort is making Harry impossible to kill by his own hands. And everything that came after Voldemort's decision about the prophecy,i.e, Lily's sacrifice, the blood charm, Sirius' sacrifice (?) etc. all make Harry even stronger. Voldemort hasn't got a chance ;). Jen, thanking Mara for a really great post that got her brain in gear today. From marydianne3123 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 13:55:19 2005 From: marydianne3123 at yahoo.com (mary horton) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050815135520.40217.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137697 hermionegallo wrote: > Isn't anyone interested in Slughorn? I posted a couple of days > ago postulating that he could have faked Dumbledore's > death; I find him to be a compelling character. > > It's #137521, in case someone was interested and missed it. catkind: > I'm interested in Slughorn, though, because I'm not at > all sure what we're supposed to make of him. > > Personally, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. I too am intrested in Slughorn. I am intrested to know why JK pointed out that he is a metamorph if it is not revelant in some way. marydianne3123 From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 15 14:07:51 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:07:51 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Snape's_Patronus__WAS:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "redeyedwings" wrote: > J: > Now, I don't necessarily believe this > myself, but it could just be because someone as evil as Snape can't > cast a Patronus, it being a very white-magicy type of spell. Pat: I think Snape has a Patronus, because the Order uses them to communicate, and he taunted Tonks that her new one seemed weaker. I don't think he would have insulted hers if she knew he didn't have one. From la_dy_di at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 13:55:45 2005 From: la_dy_di at yahoo.com (Diane C) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050815135546.98537.qmail@web51407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137699 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > As much as I dislike the idea, and unless JKR has kept some > (more) info from us, I am afraid that Percy is just as > ambitious and self-centered as he appears. The question > Lisa is referring to was asked at a time when "Percy was > Imperio'd" theories abounded. As I understood it, JKR was > responding to those - that Percy was rational and responsible, > not literally controlled by someone else. I'm sorry, I don't think Percy is imperio'd or under anyone's control. I think it's quite possible he's perfectly in control and working for the good guys, and he has to act like a complete louse in order to win the bad guys' trust and then pass on information about the bad guys' plans to the good guys. Obviously, he must do this under his own "volition" or he's of no use to anyone. I think back to the time Harry went to Percy to discuss what kind of magical studies he should pursue, and Percy advised him to "play to his strengths". Percy is ambitious and self-centered, but he is also a Weasley and a Gryffindor. By joining the Ministry he is doing what is expected of him. By becoming a little bureaucrat, he could be "playing to his strengths", and by keeping Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix advised of what the other Ministry bureaucrats are doing, he could be providing the kind of help only he would be capable of. Diane C From marianne at twcny.rr.com Mon Aug 15 15:13:47 2005 From: marianne at twcny.rr.com (Marianne) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:13:47 -0400 Subject: knitting References: <1124118409.58996.71825.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <015b01c5a1ab$ef8927f0$6401a8c0@hpstrait> No: HPFGUIDX 137700 Deb writes: > And Snape is a healer! Think of the scene in the bathroom after > Harry used the Sectumsempra curse on Malfoy: > "Pushing Harry roughly aside, he knelt over malfoy, drew his > wand, and traced it over the deep wounds Harry's curse had made, > muttering an incantation that sounded almost like a song. The > flow of blood seemed to ease; Snape wiped the residue from > Malfoy's face and repeated his spell. Now the wounds seemed to > be knitting". I find the last sentence in this quote interesting.... knitting.... didn't DD say (as a reason for his longish stay in Sluggie's bathroom while Sluggie and Harry spoke) that he liked Knitting Patterns? Just struck me as an interesting parallel..... The "other/lurker" Marianne S ( who doesn't post often) -Mare From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 15 17:17:57 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:17:57 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" > > I don't think JKR's "but" means anything at all. Nothing at all. > The interview we have is a transcription of a live interview. People > speak differently than they write, they misspeak, they use ummms and > hmmms, they start sentences they don't intend to finish, and they > often carry on conversations with the questioner, the moderator > and/or the audience. IMO way to much is being read into an > interjection from a live interview. > > jujube Hickengruendler: Here's the part about Petunia again: >Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet.< If "but" doesn't mean anything at all, than why did JKR say that Petunia being a Squib was a very good guess? JKR specifically said, that although Petunia was a muggle, there's more to her than meets the eye. That means that "but" in this case means indeed "but", namely that although Petunia is just a muggle, there's a "but". From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 17:20:08 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:20:08 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Communicating_by_Patronus_(Was:_Harry=92s_new_Patronus)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137702 Carol earlier: > > We've only seen animal Patroni but that doesn't mean a Patronus *has* to take animal form. (Absence of evidence is not proof.) I see no reason why it can't be a person. Suppose that Snape's Patronus > turns out to be Dumbledore? Think how much *that* would give away, > especially if he's still able to cast it after killing Dumbledore > A Patronus is white magic. The fact that Snape can (or could) cast one suggests to me that he really is on the side of good--or was until he fell under the curse of the DADA position and made the Unbreakable Vow. > > > J responded: > > If I remember, JKR was asked about this in an interview. Someone > said, what form is Snape's patronus? Here's the quote: > > I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor Snape's > Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious. > JK Rowling replies -> Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but > that's because it would give so much away. > > A lot of people take that to mean that its a phoenix or dumbledore > or something like that. Now, I don't necessarily believe this > myself, but it could just be because someone as evil as Snape can't > cast a Patronus, it being a very white-magicy type of spell. Carol responds: Yes, that was the quote I had in mind when I wrote the earlier post, but I take it to mean that he *can* cast a Patronus and that its form will reveal his true allegiance. (It can't be a phoenix, which was DD's Patronus, but it could be Dumbledore or even, as I half-seriously proposed in the earlier post, a dumbledore = bumblebee. It can't be some evil creature, which would be a contradiction in terms, not to mention a dead giveaway that he was not to be trusted.) And if he couldn't cast a Patronus at all, wouldn't that in itself arouse Dumbledore's suspicions? He's the one who taught the Order members how to use their Patroni to communicate. The Order members would also know that he couldn't cast a Patronus and must therefore be a Dark Wizard. And how would he communicate with them under normal circumstances, letting them know he's on his way to headquarters or whatever? He can certainly receive messages from a Patronus--Tonks' new Patronus delivered the message to him rather than to Hagrid, as she intended, clearly indicating that it recognized him as an Order member. Which brings me to the question of how a Patronus can be used to deliver a message. It's not like an owl, which can deliver a whole letter. The messages sent by Patronus, which are sent quickly by a single flick of the wand, must be very short, reflecting a single thought: "Escort Harry to the school" or "Come to the forest at once" (DD to Hagrid in GoF). To go off track for a moment, I think Snape in OoP must have used the fireplace in Umbridge's office rather than a Patronus to communicate with the Order once he had cured the Inquisitorial Squad of their minor hexes and discovered what was going on. (Sorry, Neri. I still think that's what caused the delay in OoP. And then he seems to have gone into the forest himself to look for Harry, causing further delay.) As Pippin has pointed out, it's not an instantaneous form of communication. You can't conduct a conversation using one. Yet Snape seems to have directly told Sirius not to go to the MoM and that Dumbledore was coming (maybe he sent a Patronus to Dumbledore to determine that), and he would have had to explain why he thought Harry had gone to the MoM, however improbable it seemed since Harry could neither apparate nor use a broom (and the Floo network was blocked). All of that seems to detailed and complex to communicate by Patronus, especially since he'd have had to wait for an answer. Which is not to say that Snape can't cast a Patronus (as I've already indicated, the inability to cast one would be a dead giveaway that he was not loyal to Dumbledore), only that it would not have been the best method of communication in this particular situation. To return to the topic, how does the Patronus, which is usually an animal, carry the message? Does a scroll bearing the Order member's thoughts magically appear, to be carried in the animal Patronus's mouth, and disappear into thin air once it's been read? Or can a Patronus speak? Also, it seems to be sent to a *place* rather than a person. Otherwise, Snape could not have read a message intended for Hagrid. And if a Patronus is white magic (as JKR confirms that it is), would it have delivered the message to him if he weren't genuinely on the side of the Order? Carol, who can't get her mind off Snape but is still interested in how a Patronus carries a message and how complex such a message could be From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Mon Aug 15 17:36:19 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:36:19 -0000 Subject: Question about the Room of Requirement Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137703 The Lexicon describes the Room of Requirement as a magical room which can only be discovered by someone who is in need. The room will appear when someone walks past the wall three times while concentrating on what they need. We know that in OotP, The DA used the room for meetings. The room stocked itself with useful books and objects one would use for DADA lessons. In OotP, Chapter 27, the Inquisitorial Squad discovered the DA had been using the room. They found the room and the list of all of the members hanging on the wall. I recall some theories that because the I.S. needed some evidence against the DA, the room provided it for them. However, in Chapter 21 of HPB, we see Harry trying to get the room to appear to show him what Draco was up to. The door to the room never appears. Why doesn't the room give Harry what he needs? Was what he requested not specific enough? Is it because Harry didn't *need* to know what Draco was up to, he only *wants* to know? Or does the room not allow people to see what other's are using it for? But if that is the case, why did the room allow the I.S. to see what the DA was up to, but not allow Harry to see what Draco was up to? Any thoughts? Demetra From jjjjjulie at aol.com Mon Aug 15 17:39:31 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:39:31 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > If "but" doesn't mean anything at all, than why did JKR say that > Petunia being a Squib was a very good guess? Because it *is* a good guess in the sense that JKR is complimenting the questioner on being able to make a connection between the concept of a Squib (based on remembering the 2 Squibs we'd met at that point) and the sister of a witch. I am pretty sure, from the context, that it is not "good" as in "very close." It's more like "good" as in "I commend you for thinking about the clues in the books, but unfortunately it's wrong." > JKR specifically said, that although Petunia was a muggle, there's > more to her than meets the eye. That means that "but" in this case > means indeed "but", namely that although Petunia is just a muggle, > there's a "but". Right. "Petunia's a Muggle. But..." "But she knows a lot about the wizarding world despite the fact she pretends it doesn't exist. She knows what dementors are. She has received correspondence from Dumbledore. She's gotten owl-carried letters that Harry doesn't know about until she gets the Howler in OOtP. She knows why Harry has to stay in Little Whinging every summer. She knows about the magic that protects him and her family." I am sorry but IMO there's no canon for "But..." to mean "But she still has magical powers." I understand that people are going to debate this until book 7 is released, but I am not given to making up huge long convoluted stories about the books which contain details which do not exist on the pretext that book 7 is somehow going to trace the discovery of last Horcrux, the finding of all of the extant Horcruxes, the destruction of all of the extant Horcruxes, and resolution of the plot line with Snape, and the downfall of Voldemort and yet explain to us that Lupin is secretly evil, Lupin and James were lovers, Ginny had to resort to a love potion perfume to get Harry's love, etc. None of that is going to happen. All of the backstories, save those that involve what happened in Godric's Hollow and Snape (and what Dudley saw when he met the dementor) are there. We'll learn some more about other things, but IMCO she's not going to stop the action flow of the book to discourse on how Lily was James' beard. I hew close to the facts in the book, perhaps with a few leaps of logic based on deduction from things that are clear, in my approach to figuring out book 7. Not every word in the book, nor every word she she uttered, has signficance. Some elements are there just for fun and as a lighter touch. And I personally think it's a big mistake to read a lot into the word "but" in an extemporaneous remark. All of the above is simply my opinion based on my preferred way to disentangle the clues in the first 6 books. I realize the mileage of others may vary and I am interested in what other folks say. I want to guess correctly about what will happen in the last book, and so I am happy to have my facts corrected so I can reach that goal. But unless a counterargument is going to hew close to what is canon, it is going to be unlikely to sway me. If we were on book 4--maybe. But there's only one book left to go and the story arc is going to be fairly tight. jujube From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Aug 15 17:33:16 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:33:16 -0000 Subject: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137705 > Pippin: > ROTFLMAO! At last we know the secret of Jo's success. She's boring > and lacks the ability to tell a satisfying and meaningful story. I'm > glad we got that cleared up :-) Chuckle. I don't think we have, to be fair. It all depends on how it turns out. At the moment, the saga has a great deal of promise. It it DOES follow expectations though - i.e. if it turns out that Snape is Dumbledore's man through and through, etc., then I would say you've pegged it -- ultimately, for all its great moments, the story in the end was boring, contrived, unsatisfying, and will have said nothing, in its ultimate plot, really meaningful or believable. > > Seriously, using a medieval formula doesn't mean that you have a > medieval message. Once again, that remains to be seen. But I think you're right, that medieval plots don't mean medieval messages. But in this instance a medieval plotline a la Morte D'Arthur would be tired and ineffectual. Lupinlore From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 18:19:20 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:19:20 -0000 Subject: Why would Snape want the DADA position? (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <008401c5a182$e4802170$12c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137706 Cathy Drolet wrote: Snape could have taken out DD anytime, I'm sure they were alone together many times: when Snape was telling DD the Dark Mark on his arm was returning; when, as someone else just said, Snape was *healing* him from the horcrux curse, during the argument by the forbidden forest, during all the times Snape begged for the DADA job. Carol responds: I've snipped most of your arguments because I agree with them and have nothing to add (interested posters please go upthread), but I want to address the last phrase. We're not told that Snape ever "begged" for the DADA job, only that he routinely applied for it. I think that originally, when he was still only twenty or twenty-one and a loyal DE, he applied for the position and was rejected (having just been caught eavesdropping on DD and Trelawney). Then, after changing sides and spying for Dumbledore "at great personal risk," he applied again, having been sent by Voldemort as a spy but having revealed his true loyalties to Dumbledore and was given the position of Potions master (for which he was equally qualified) instead--in part because Dumbledore feared that the DADA post might cause a relapse, but primarily because DD knew that the position had been jinxed (or cursed) by Voldemort himself. The Potions position gave Snape a safe haven at Hogwarts for nine months of every year, whereas the DADA position would have lasted only one year--and DD at that time had no way of knowing that Voldemort would be separated from his body only two months after he hired the young professor. After Voldemort's fall, Snape reapplied for the DADA position repeatedly, yet he could not have failed to see that the jinx (or curse) on the position was no mere rumor among the students. Every year for the fifteen years he was Potions master, the DADA position became vacant, and often the fate of the DADA master was grim. Quirrell died; Lockhart lost his memory; Moody was locked in his own trunk for nine months, Imperioed and barely alive; Fake!Moody had his soul sucked out by a Dementor. Surely Severus Snape didn't want a similar fate. However much he preferred the DADA position to Potions (which, in fact, he seemed to enjoy and certainly excelled at--setting aside his treatment of his students and looking only at his knowledge of his subject), why would he want to risk a fate as bad as Quirrell's or Fake!Moody's by accepting the position? Maybe repeatedly applying for it was part of his cover as that was the position he had originally been sent by Voldemort to apply for, but surely he didn't really want it? When he applied yet again before HBP, Dumbledore must have said something like, "Severus, I have refused to give you the position in previous years because I feared that the jinx on the position would have terrible consequences for you. But this year I will have great need of your expertise in that subject. moreover, I wish to hire Horace Slughorn as Potions master as I will need him at Hogwarts as well. Please consider carefully before accepting this position, as it will mean that this is our last year together. It may mean that you will fall into darkness or that you will die. And yet, Severus, I trust you and I need you. Do not fail me now." At that moment, could Snape really think that he had finally accomplished his objective, that the DADA position was the recognition he craved and a reward for his faithful service? Could he possibly think that he, unlike every previous DADA professor, could somehow escape the curse, especially if DD informed him that it had been placed by Voldemort himself? Even if Snape was disloyal to Dumbledore and had already fallen back into darkness, didn't he realize that it could mean his death, that accepting the positon would doom him to some terrible fate? Was it loyalty or disloyalty, folly or great courage that led him to accept it? Or did Dumbledore, needing the memory from Horace Slughorn, give Snape no choice in the matter? Dumbledore speaks of his mistakes. Was this the greatest mistake of all, the one that set all the others in motion? If Snape had not taken the DADA position, perhaps there would have been no Unbreakable Vow, and Snape could somehow have saved Dumbledore from the poison protecting the fake Horcrux, or prevented him from going after it at all. I have additional thoughts on how the DADA jinx relates to Lupin's current plight but I'm afraid to add them here for fear that someone will snip the main post and focus on the postscript! Carol, noting that the villain of the book is Voldemort, not Snape, and all the characters, including Dumbledore and Snape, are caught in Voldemort's web From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 15 18:19:11 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:19:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slughorn a dead end topic? References: <1124118409.58996.71825.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002401c5a1c5$d83af960$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 137707 Potioncat wrote >Slughorn now...for some reason I always think it's Slugworth...is >that a character in another story? And I always think of Hagrid and >his Flesh Eating Slug Repellent. Not a very pleasant name, is it? The allusion that came to my mind was from a poem by Robert Browning "Childe Roland (I think) to the Dark Tower Came" or something like that and that at the end of the poem Roland blows a blast on a slug-horn. This is all half-remembered stuff from secondary school. Apparently there was no such instrument as a slug-horn (Browning got it wrong). Anyone remember the poem? Does its plot have any parallels with HBP? hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From coastlinehb at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 16:58:32 2005 From: coastlinehb at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:58:32 -0000 Subject: Do you believe that Harry, himself, IS a Horcorx? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137708 I came across this theroy that his scar is a Horcrux, That He Who Should Not Be Named made Harry his 7th, and the mark (scar) is the Horcrux. That is why Harry has some of his powers and DD was so concerned in Harry knowing how to recognize it and what do to about it. "Michelle" From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Aug 15 18:40:59 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:40:59 -0000 Subject: If Snape told DD about the UV, how would DD have responded? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137709 Potioncat: > From this point, I believe, DD and Snape make and > adjust plans as needed. I seriously doubt that they > started out with a plan for Snape to kill DD. But as > the year moved on, they would have had to discuss > different options. And at any given moment, > it would as likely have > ended in Snape's death as Dumbledore's. houyhnhnm: This is the most reasonable explanation I've read with regard to Snape and Dumbledore's relationship and the UV. I keep coming back to Dumbledore's pleading on the tower. As many have argued, for Dumbledore to plead for his life, at such a cost and after all the speeches he has made about not fearing death, would undermine his character and make him a bigger fraud than Trelawney. And yet, for Dumbledore to be pleading with Snape to kill him as part of some hard and fast plan seems a little too grotesque. I believe it is as you say, that both men have had time to thoroughly familiarize themselves with multiple possible outcomes and contingencies upon those outcomes. When Snape arrives that night on the tower, the outcome is determined. Both of them know what is going to happen. When Dumbledore says, "Severus ... please", I think it is not in reference to what is occuring on the tower, but to some other promise Dumbledore has extracted from Snape. Something Dumbledore wants Snape to do even after he is dead. Maybe it is the same thing they argued over in the forest. Perhaps it is to look out for Harry. From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Mon Aug 15 18:43:08 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:43:08 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137710 Of course, Harry, being beyond mere revenge, isn't all that interested in getting the murderer Snape. He is after the big boss, and mentions he'll get Snape IF he gets in the way. To remind the readers, though. Snape is culpable in the following ways - he is responsible for conveying information to Tom that lead directly to the death of James and Lily. He killed Dumbledore. Besides, unlike Pippin, I don't think that "tolerance" is the main theme of the books, but more like humility, which is a MUCH harder read, and much more radical a thesis in these times than mere tolerance, which accepts as valid differences that are as meaningless as race in the real world. If one finds oneself "tolerating" muggle borns, then one has accepted the distinction in the first place. That is racism, period. It's humility in the big sense. Over and over on this list I talk about secular Calvinism - the belief that there is more to an individual than some set of backgrounds, influences, etc. I deny any theory can encompass existence. Idealism is a very dangerous road, fraught with fallacy and arrogance and inevitably develops a dictatorial bent. Besides, if Snape is already redeemed, his story is just banal. There's nothing more to tell. He's a good guy, Albus right hand man, and Harry is in good hands, and the whole story can be summed up as Harry learning the truth about Snape. That, I submit, is more trite that TV. If Snape is not redeemed yet, however, then he is culpable for the things that have been stated in the books, and the gollum or gollum - like option is pretty much the only way to go. In other words, he cannot ever be a hero. Now, before anyone accuses me of blood-lust or desire for revenge, or starts telling me about the morality tale that the books are, let me just reiterate - Snape deserves to die, but neither Harry nor I are bent on revenge. It's just the case. Anything Snape does for the side of good is nothing more than what he should be doing. Anything he does for the side of evil... oh, can't I let you answer that? dan From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 18:56:55 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:56:55 -0000 Subject: Communicating by Patronus, and dark vs. white magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137711 > Carol: >Or can a > Patronus speak? Also, it seems to be sent to a *place* rather than a > person. Otherwise, Snape could not have read a message intended for > Hagrid. And if a Patronus is white magic (as JKR confirms that it is), > would it have delivered the message to him if he weren't genuinely on > the side of the Order? I'm guessing the Patronus does speak; that seems to be the most straightforward way. But who knows? I doubt the Patronus would have to be sent to a place rather than a person. My guess is that they have logic and knowledge of their own, so when Tonks' Patronus was unable to deliver its message to Hagrid, it did the next best thing and gave the message to the nearest Order member instead. I know that's quite complex for a spell, but the Patronus is pretty darn lifelike. Perhaps that scene shows us the capabilities *and* the limits of a Patronus. It's intelligent enough to complete its mission, but not aware enough to spare Tonks some embarassment by avoiding Snape. Maybe that's just too obscure a concern for a Patronus to deal with. I'd like to get to the bottom of this whole "Patronus = white magic" idea. The only JKR quote I know of that deals with this is her statement that "it is an anti-Dark Arts device, which makes it highly resilient to interference from Dark wizards." I don't think this precludes a Dark wizard from being able to cast his own Patronus. Indeed, Dark wizards need anti-Dark Arts devices even more than good wizards do, seeing as they keep more dangerous company. They'd be in trouble if they became incapable of casting certain spells just because they're turning evil. The Dark Mark alone won't protect you from Dementors, for example. I suspect that any person can cast a Patronus, and that Patronus would then defend its caster, good or evil. There's a tendency to put spells and wizards in very clear metaphysical categories-- good or bad, Dark Arts or white magic. But I'm not sure there are any quotes in canon or JKR's interviews that support the idea that the categories are really so distinct and incompatible. However, that doesn't mean it can't be true, and there may well be data I'm not aware of, so I'd welcome opposing views. As for me, I doubt there are any spells or people who are so inherently Evil that they become incompatible with Good. (One possible exception is Voldemort, who has actually gone and split his soul-- maybe *he* wouldn't be able to cast a Patronus.) Even the Unforgivable Curses are performed by good wizards-- think of Harry, the pure-souled power-of-Love boy himself, throwing the Cruciatus Curse. His first attempt on Bellatrix wasn't too effective, but I bet the Cruciatus he cast at Snape at the end of HBP would have been much more painful if Snape hadn't blocked it. I won't be disturbed if Harry kills Voldemort with Aveda Kedavra. I tend to look at spells as mere tools that can be used for good or evil. Aveda Kedavra is usually used for evil purpose, but killing Voldemort would be a very good and necessary thing. However, JKR seems to be setting us up for something different, something involving Love rather than AK. Harry stopped Sirius and Remus from becoming killers; I suspect JKR won't want Harry to become a killer either-- but then how is he going to off Voldemort? -oiboyz, who can't wait to see how this will all play out. From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 15 19:00:12 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:00:12 -0000 Subject: Question about the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137712 Demetra wrote: > The Lexicon describes the Room of Requirement as a magical room which > can only be discovered by someone who is in need. The room will > appear when someone walks past the wall three times while > concentrating on what they need. > > We know that in OotP, The DA used the room for meetings. The room > stocked itself with useful books and objects one would use for DADA > lessons. > In OotP, Chapter 27, the Inquisitorial Squad discovered the DA had > been using the room. They found the room and the list of all of the > members hanging on the wall. I recall some theories that because the > I.S. needed some evidence against the DA, the room provided it for > them. > > However, in Chapter 21 of HPB, we see Harry trying to get the room to > appear to show him what Draco was up to. The door to the room never > appears. > > Why doesn't the room give Harry what he needs? Was what he requested > not specific enough? Is it because Harry didn't *need* to know what > Draco was up to, he only *wants* to know? > Or does the room not allow people to see what other's are using it > for? But if that is the case, why did the room allow the I.S. to see > what the DA was up to, but not allow Harry to see what Draco was up > to? > > Any thoughts? Rachael now: The I.S. got into the Room of Requirement because they knew what the DA was all about, so they could figure out what Harry said to get in and so it would allow them. Harry, however, did not know what Draco was up to, so he couldn't get in the same way. But, when Harry looks for a place to hide something (the potions book), he gets into Draco's room (he passes the vanishing cabinet) and Trelawny makes it into the room when Draco's in there when she wants to hide her sherry bottles. So, to summarize, I don't think it's a matter of want vs. need, but having the same reason/requirement to go in. Rachael From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 19:02:38 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:02:38 -0000 Subject: Snape, the healer (Was: why did DD need Snape? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137713 Deb wrote: > And Snape is a healer! Think of the scene in the bathroom after > Harry used the Sectumsempra curse on Malfoy: > "Pushing Harry roughly aside, he knelt over malfoy, drew his wand, > and traced it over the deep wounds Harry's curse had made, muttering > an incantation that sounded almost like a song. The flow of blood > seemed to ease; Snape wiped the residue from Malfoy's face and > repeated his spell. Now the wounds seemed to be knitting". > > Could it be that Snape is able to imitate phoenix song? Or if it is > a true incantation then some very powerful healer invented it(and if > so where/when/how did Snape learn it) .... or did Snape create this > spell too? It maybe that since he (as the HBP) created the > Sectumsempra Curse he also created the countercurse. No matter what > you may think of Snape, he is a very powerful wizard! I also suspect > that Snape was LV's Potions Master when he was first in the DEs... > he may have been the one who created the potion in the bowl in the > cave. So he would be the one to know any antidote that might > exisit. Carol responds: I absolutely agree that Snape is a healer skilled in countering Dark Magic, which is why Dumbledore wants him and not Madam Pomfrey after he drinks the potion in the cave. Note that Snape also saved Dumbledore from the ring Horcrux and slowed the curse on Katie Bell so that she could safely be taken to St. Mungo's. (He may have broken the curse on the necklace itself as well since McGonagall has Filch deliver it to Snape.) We could even throw in the fact that Ron owes his life to Snape's knowledge of bezoars. And if he invented the Sectumsempra Curse, as we know he did, the countercurse also has to be his own invention. But I don't see how Snape could have created the potion (which appears to be poisoned thoughts or memories) in the Pensievelike bowl in the cave simply because he was only eleven when Voldemort returned and LV surely would have hidden his Horcruxes long before that, much waiting seven or eight more years till Severus was old enough to join the Death Eaters. I suppose it's possible that Voldemort rehid that particular Horcrux and that young Snape was asked to create a deterrent to prevent anyone from accessing it. That could explain how R.A.B. (almost certainly Regulus) could find the cave and steal the potion. Severus Snape, sharing Regulus's doubts but much more skilled at keeping his cover, told him about it. But why would he leave the ring Horcrux so easily accessible and not rehide it, too? I'm not sure about Snape's involvement here, but I absolutely agree that he's a very powerful wizard and a healer, and I've always suspected that his role in the DEs was as a potion maker for Voldemort, who uses the talents and powers of his followers to *his* best advantage. (See the Karkaroff hearing in GoF for specific examples.) Why send Snape out to Crucio unwilling followers or torture Muggles when his time is better spent searching among his walls full of books for the specific potion Voldemort needs, collecting the ingredients at the exact time required by the complicated directions, and carefully watching over that potion till it's ready? Bellatrix implies that Snape is in the habit of "slithering" out of DE activities (when he's not at Hogwarts, which would be an excuse in itself). No doubt he used the same strategy when he was young, especially after the death of Regulus or whatever caused his pre-Godric's Hollow change of heart. ("I can't join you, Bellatrix. I have a potion brewing.") Carol, noting that Snape, directly or indirectly, saves four people in HBP: Dumbledore (from the ring Horcrux), Katie Bell, Ron, and Draco (twice)--quite a record for someone perceived to be evil From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 19:06:15 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:06:15 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: <002401c5a1c5$d83af960$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137714 Ffred: > The allusion that came to my mind was from a poem by Robert Browning "Childe > Roland (I think) to the Dark Tower Came" or something like that and that at > the end of the poem Roland blows a blast on a slug-horn. > hg: That's it. My husband is the lit major, he knows more about it, but from what I understand Roland has been on a quest, his companions killed off one by one, but gives a rallying cry on his slughorn as if to accept the fight, alone and almost certainly doomed, to honor those who had gotten him thus far. Aside from the obvious Harry/Roland connection, it also makes me think of Dumbledore. He has brought in Lockhart, Lupin, then Moody -- then wasn't able to secure a teacher for 5th year (probably was trying to get Slughorn). And I got the impression that this wouldn't be another failure, but more of a "pulling out the stops" kind of a move. marydianne: I too am interested in Slughorn. I am interested to know why JK pointed out that he is a metamorph if it is not revelant in some way. hg: Me, too. I thought it possible for Slughorn to have taken Dumbledore's place in the cave/tower scene; particularly compelling to me are: the potions knife, the eyes reflected green in the basin, the highly dramatic death. Even if I can't determine one way or another that it was Slughorn, his metamorphmagus skills would likely come into play later. Potioncat (snipped): As for the Dumbledore theory: "He's dead, Jim." We know that in Harry's 6th year, Slughorn avoids taking any DE- connected students into his club.I wonder about the Marauders' time. We think he had Snape in his club. Was he aware of which ones were connected, or was he not so particular then? I wonder if he owed anything to DEs in the last war? He's younger than DD, he seems in good health, why did hte retire? Was he strongly encouraged by someone? Someone who wanted an opening for a new teacher? hg: I don't get the impression that Snape was in the Slug Club, but I can't say for sure he wasn't. What makes you think so? I'm curious. I've also wondered if the DE's got to him before Dumbledore did (in the scene with Harry) but it's all speculation. I was thinking he retired when Lily was killed. His retirement neatly coincided with an opening for Potions professor, filled by Snape; maybe there was some encouragement somewhere. catkind: I'm interested in Slughorn, though, because I'm not at all sure what we're supposed to make of him. To me, he's the sort of person I really truly hate - he's bigoted and public-schoolish and selfish, but he's right about people often enough to make it hard to condemn his biases and charming to boot. Personally, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. hg: I trust him. I don't find him bigoted at all, but his picking people and ignoring others is obnoxious to say the least. I think Dumbledore really trusts him and sees him as more of an equal than anyone we've seen to date. (More of an equal, not EQUAL.) catkind: I'm interested in Slughorn, but it's hard to refute your theory if you don't tell us why you think it's true. hg: I agree -- it's hard for anyone on the board to refute or back up my theory -- but not because I left out why I think it's true, but as I said, because I don't know what it is! Without understanding why Slughorn would take Dumbledore's place, I can't assert that it happened. That was why my original post was asking if anyone would hazard a guess as to WHY that could have happened. I think I could explain the HOW. I have collected a lot of odd bits from the cave/tower scene, some of which I mentioned above. Additonally are: the trickle of blood; "the" instead of personal pronouns used when Harry view's the body; Dumbledore's language in the scene; the "five minutes;" Slughorn's unaccounted-for absence through the whole event; Dumbledore after drinking the potion reacting like Ron after swallowing the bezoar. There are other things here and there that don't add up to me. So I think it's possible to explain the stage magic of any of the indicators of Dumbledore's death; however, is it possible to explain what dramatic purpose that would serve? Thanks to all who've responded thus far. I hope you and others continue to find Slughorn interesting and worth exploring. hg. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 17:18:34 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:18:34 -0000 Subject: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: Why did Merope die? I asked this question already today in > another post, but will give it another go here :-). > > Young, relatively healthy Merope should not have died for no > particular reason. I honestly found myself thinking of Padme in > the recent Star Wars movie, dying in childbirth for no explicable > reason other than heartbreak! Is that what we're supposed to > believe, Merope died of a broken heart?! Ceridwen: I didn't read Merope's death that way. I got the impression she was undernourished, and refused to lift a wand from the time TRsr. left her to the time she died. She had to pawn a valuable locket and was swindled for it, in order to keep alive long enough to have her child. She probably weakened herself all through the pregnancy, resulting in her death at the end. She wouldn't use magic, not to eat, to find suitable accomodations, or to get medical assistance of some form or another. Maybe she didn't think she deserved it, either because she thought her father was right in the end, she was just a nothing, a nearly- Squib; or because she felt so much guilt over ruining her own life, TRsr.'s life, and their child's life through her attempts at magic. Maybe she was too proud to return to her abusive home, would rather die than seek out family help. We were shown Tonks in questionable ability due to love-sickness, and her situation was not nearly as desperate as Merope's. Also, Tonks at least had a steady upbringing, which Merope did not. So, I think that she despondently refused to help herself eat better, live better, and get the best medical attention she could, which she could have done through magical means. An emergency in delivery would have to have been taken care of by trained healers, IMO, as Mom would have been too out of it by then to do a thing. I can't say what young Tom thought, or believed could have happened, and when, in the circumstances. He knew nothing about his beginnings. > Jen: Argh, the great mystery about Lily's sacrifice. I keep > running in circles over this issue and may confuse myself yet > again here. > > The missing part for me is, will Lily's sacrifice offer other > benefits we haven't seen yet or will the weakening of Voldemort > be the last part to Lily's sacrifice? I guess that's why I'm not > sure whether Harry got another literal magical element from > Lily's sacrifice, i.e. an addition to his soul, when we know its > power is literally in his blood. Not to mention the beautiful > symbolism of her sarcrifice. > *(snip)* > But Dumbledore is the one who taught him about finding the ones > we love inside ourselves when we truly need them. So far Harry > has brought forth his mother's love when Quirrell couldn't touch > him, and his father's love when he casts his Patronus that night > on the lake. I hope to see Dumbledore's love express itself in > some literal way in Book 7. Now you've got me wondering. Could anything done to or for Harry in particular, of a sacrificial nature, be added to his extra store, as long as it was done with love for him? Or, by someone loved by him? Will Dumbledore's meaning for Harry be embodied in some way in book 7, as Lily's sacrifice was throughout his life so far, and as James's was when he manifested as Harry's Patronus? Who else's love and sacrifice will show up in greater or lesser power? Ron's in SS/PS, when he sacrifices himself for the quest? And what about Cedric Diggory's death, and Harry showing love for him by bringing his body back? What exactly is bubbling around in Harry's blood now, because of all of this, that will aid him in his quest? > Jen: Tying to the idea that Lily's sacrifice strengthens Harry > every time Harry defies Voldemort, Dumbledore really made a case > for Voldemort defeating *himself* in the Horcrux chapter:" He > heard the prophecy and he leapt into action, with the result that > he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he > handed him uniquely deadly weapons" (chap. 23, p. 510). > > I don't know how it will happen, but somehow Voldemort is making > Harry impossible to kill by his own hands. And everything that > came after Voldemort's decision about the prophecy,i.e, Lily's > sacrifice, the blood charm, Sirius' sacrifice (?) etc. all make > Harry even stronger. Voldemort hasn't got a chance ;). If it goes as outlined above, then Harry is being magically armed with quite an arsenal. Sort-of like the games played on computers, where you go in and buy this or that, a weapon or a bribe, to assist you on the next level. After certain quests/books, he seems to get something. His parents' contribution, and if correct, something from Ron in SS/PS, something from Cedric in GoF, and now something from Dumbledore. (Maybe something from Ginny in CoS?) And something from Sirius beyond the Black estate, from OotP. I can't think of anything from PoA, but I might just not be thinking along the right lines. > Jen, thanking Mara for a really great post that got her brain in > gear today. Ceridwen, adding to that thanks, to both. From prep0strus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 19:11:26 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:11:26 -0000 Subject: Ron, Xander, and the Useless Best Friend Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137716 It's fun (and unavoidable) to make comparisons with other hero stories, and some are very easy - Dumbledore - Obi-Wan, Gandalf... I'm a huge fan of Ron, however, and so I was trying to think of another example of a useless best friend. I don't have cable right now, and a friend leant me the Buffy the Vampire series on DVD to while away the hours, and there it is: Xander. The way both characters have been developed drives me nuts - they're funny, loyal, with potential, but ultimately without anything that really makes them special. Xander is perhaps a little funnier than Ron, and Ron gets to be the *true* best friend to our hero as opposed to Xander taking 2nd seat to Willow, but they're both these entertaining, underappreciated characters. And it's not that they haven't been given a spark of something - Ron's chess skills, which *should* carry over into strategic ability made their only important appearance in Book 1, and this is actually fairly similar to Xander's 'military memory', which could also be a source of strategic knowledge used more than it was in the series. I haven't gotten all the way through Buffy yet, but I've heard some of what happens... and I just hope JKR gives Ron more in her last installment than poor maligned Xander got. (There's also a good comparison to be made between Hermione and Willow - as the 'smart' friend who does research, and Willow may be THE witch on Buffy, but Hermione's intelligence & skill make her the arguably the best wizard of her group. However, I tend to doubt Hermione will become a force for even temporarily evil in Book 7) I saw in back messages that Buffy used to be brought up quite a bit - I hope this wasn't too redundant for anyone. I wanted to mention it, though, and ask - what other examples can people think of for the Useless Best Friend - or other character comparisons that can be made with other characters and stories than the obvious ones (LOTR/Star Wars, Gandalf/Obi-Wan) that are made regularly. ~Prep0strus From feenyjam at msu.edu Mon Aug 15 19:15:53 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:15:53 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137717 > > Potioncat said: > > > > What I'd like to know, is how it was that Black was cleared and > > his will was read within weeks of his death? What evidence was > > presented that couldn't have been presented before?: > Oiboyz said: >We don't know that Sirius actually was cleared, do we? I just assumed > that his will, as well as the key to his Gringott's vault and any > other worthwhile possessions, were left in the care of a trusted > friend who knew of his innocence-- no doubt someone in the Order. > There would be no need for the wizarding world at large to be > involved, since Harry was the only beneficiary. Dumbledore could > read the will and tell Harry, "It's all yours now," and that would be > the end of that. > Greenfirespike says: I know this is a little off cannon, but in America a will still operates even if the person is a convicted criminal and they died in jail. Thus, Sirius' will could easily pass all of his possessions regardless of the MoM or the WW perception of his guilt or innocence. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 17:43:47 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:43:47 -0000 Subject: Horcrux creation and different kinds of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137718 Ceridwen: Sorry about getting into this thread so late! But this was linked in another thread accidentally, and I got caught up. Deb wrote: *(snip)* > However in HBP we come across a magic that is banned at Hogwarts! *(snip)* > I think that this particular spell comes under a separate kind > of magic... ritual magic. We have seen this type of magic only > once before in the saga of Harry Potter - When Harry is > transported to the cemetary by the Triwizard Cup turned Portkey. > Lord Voldemort and Wormtail have set the stage for the ritual > that follows... And the final act in the ritual was to kill 'the ones who had thrice defied him', on what may be considered a sacred day, Hallowe'en. > I think further that LV had created all 6 of his horcruxes > before he went to kill Harry Potter... *(snip)* .... I think > from LV's POV he would see this as the last obstacle to his > immortality (though IMO LV was already overconfident that his > horcruxes would save him from any attempts to vanquish him and > this made him careless and forgetful of the old powers, the old > magic that he so dispised and mistrusted - the power of love) .... Yes, I think all the horcruxes/horcruci were in place if this is indeed part of a grand ritual which has taken years to perform. He will seal the rite with a triple sacrifice (three is another holy number as well as seven), use the blood of the slain to bind it, and be free forever. *(snip)* > and if LV kills him and prevents the fulfillment of > the prophecy as he understands it... How many problems arise in old tales when someone tries to either mold a prophecy to their own understanding, or to circumvent it? Oedipus comes straight to mind. I know there are others. Didn't that orphanage ever send the kid Tom to school??? > The power that he left with Harry when the AK back fired I think > is more along the lines of transferring a skill - parseltongue > and perhaps some of LV's ability as a legilimens. Rather like > being splattered with the blowback from any other type of > explosion.... some times shrapnel becomes so embedded that it is > very hard to remove. Yes, proving once again that trying to manipulate a prophecy by one's imperfect understanding, one messes up big-time. BTW, anyone else wonder if Harry saw the *entire* prophecy? Or just the bit Dumbledore wanted him to see? Could there be even more to it than that? And if so, do either Snape, who deliberately overheard at least some of it, or the barman at the Hogshead (Aberforth), know it? It could either be fading out by repeating a form of the first line over, or it could have been going on to another part? Ceridwen, a 'ten o'clock scholar' to this post. From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 15 19:22:47 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:22:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why would Snape want the DADA position? (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007801c5a1ce$b9240e50$bb3a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137719 Dumbledore speaks of his mistakes. Was this the greatest mistake of all, the one that set all the others in motion? If Snape had not taken the DADA position, perhaps there would have been no Unbreakable Vow, and Snape could somehow have saved Dumbledore from the poison protecting the fake Horcrux, or prevented him from going after it at all. Carol, noting that the villain of the book is Voldemort, not Snape, and all the characters, including Dumbledore and Snape, are caught in Voldemort's web Sherry now: i think that Snape would not have believed the jinx would affect him. He is just arrogant enough to think, no jinx can get the best of me. I don't even believe there is a jinx, but if there is one, I'm smart enough to outwit it. ... I can totally believe a person of his temperament scoffing at the idea of a jinx or believing that he could overcome it somehow. sherry noting that the hero of the book is Harry, not Snape, and that Snape being ultimately on the side of good and rushing in at the last moment to save Harry's hide would be a horrible disservice to the true hero of the books! From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 15 19:23:00 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:23:00 -0000 Subject: Petunia and love for Lily? NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jjjjjuliep" wrote: > > I am sorry but IMO there's no canon for "But..." to mean "But she > still has magical powers." Hickengruendler: Well, if you are going to reread my posts than you will see that I never said there is any canon. In fact, I stated that I think Filch is the person, who will do magic late in life (while you think, she meant Merope, if I'm not mistaken). I said about Petunia, that my interpretation of the "but" is, that although she's not a Squib, her situation is comparable to one, because she, too, has some knowledge about the wizarding world without being able to be a part of it. Than you answered, that the "but" probably doesn't mean anything at all, and I argued that this contradicts the other part of JKR's statement, namely that there's more to Petunia than meets the eye. I never said that the "but" means, that she has magical powers. From doliesl at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 19:44:14 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050815194414.91844.qmail@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137721 --- lupinlore wrote: > Chuckle. I don't think we have, to be fair. It all depends on how > it turns out. At the moment, the saga has a great deal of promise. > It it DOES follow expectations though - i.e. if it turns out that > Snape is Dumbledore's man through and through, etc., then I would > say you've pegged it -- ultimately, for all its great moments, the > story in the end was boring, contrived, unsatisfying, and will have > said nothing, in its ultimate plot, really meaningful or believable. Yeah what the grand Snape debate (at least on HPFGU) really comes down is each reader (whatever 'sides' you lean toward) project his/her own demand for JKR for favoring their vision+expectation, with the same excuse of "well that makes the story boring, contrived, unsatisfying okay!?!?". That is the weakest argument you can have, because those who disagree with you say the same thing about your dear mighty vision. The way I see it, the always no subtlety, black & white Harry, being "right" (despite still so many unanswered mysteries and deliberate textual ambiguities) about the often misunderstood Snape is *extremely* contrive, boring and unsatisfying. JKR has played fair, she put a lot of textual clues and ambiguities. She refused to confirm anything in interview, and she loves and encourages Snape theories. I've seen a lot of Pro-Snape theories based on analyzing and speculating textual clues, but most the black&white evil Snape arguments I've seen, instead of basing in text, always just boil down to "I hate Snape, now i have a reason to be in denial all his ambiguities and hate him as nothing but a evil villain!!" or bunch of completely biased righteous self-projection onto what you think JKR's theme is, what makes a better book in your opinon (as if you know better than JKR). These gets old and tiring very quickly. And just a reminder for those who thinks HBP should be the end for Harry being right, coz OMG there's only one book left~~~ Let's not forget we still have an unresolved theme of "eyes", of glasses being Harry's "weakness", and glasses as a metaphor of a bias filter that Harry used to see the world. And then there's Lily's eyes... D. Contrive... *chuckle*...as if the Super Love power hero Harry, Spiderman!break up Harry isn't contrive enough...spare me more of contrived Harry who's so freaking dull, reactionary in HBP and have him do something cool for once puhlease~ From feenyjam at msu.edu Mon Aug 15 19:55:09 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:55:09 -0000 Subject: Why would RAB put poison back into the bucket? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137722 Why put poison back into the bucket? What does RAB have to gain by replacing the poison? Assuming that LV set up the Horcrux and then RAB comes along and takes the locket, I am left wondering why leave it with the same protections as before? Whoever took the locket left a note, a note written to LV, so why bother to replace the locket? RAB gains entry into the cave, and manages to find the hidden lake. DD tells Harry that the concealment of the hidden doorway is somewhat rudimentary (paraphrasing here). Then RAB crosses the lake, and drinks from the bucket. RAB then manages to take real!locket and replaces it with fake!locket. RAB must then refill the bucket with the poison that he/she just drank, cross the lake and put the boat back, then seal the wall up. Are we to assume that the poison in the bucket is a rudimentary a spell as the spell to hide the lake? Perhaps it is not as strong as many (myself included) have given it credit for. But assuming that the poison is very dark and very deadly, then RAB must have been a rather competent wizard to not only survive the poison, but be able to reproduce the same poison and place back into the bucket. Alternatively, if LV wants to get the locket back, does LV have to drink the poison? And if not, then perhaps other dark wizards who can identify the poison can also manage to summon it away without drinking it. Greenfirespike From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 15 20:03:21 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:03:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why would RAB put poison back into the bucket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008601c5a1d4$63f73050$bb3a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137723 Why put poison back into the bucket? What does RAB have to gain by replacing the poison? Assuming that LV set up the Horcrux and then RAB comes along and takes the locket, I am left wondering.why leave it with the same protections as before? Whoever took the locket left a note, a note written to LV, so why bother to replace the locket? Greenfirespike Sherry now: I've wondered if perhaps the potion replenishes itself. You know, someone drinks it, and eventually it reappears in the basin. Maybe, that's a way out idea, but there has to be an explanation why it is there, if RAB had to drink it previously. sherry From vsmoothe at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 20:05:25 2005 From: vsmoothe at gmail.com (Echa) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:05:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why would RAB put poison back into the bucket? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72f13ff2050815130554a557c8@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137724 I simply assumed that the bucket had some charm placed on it that caused it to refill itself with the same poison after it had been emptied. v On 8/15/05, greenfirespike wrote: > > > Why put poison back into the bucket? What does RAB have to gain by > replacing the poison? Assuming that LV set up the Horcrux and then > RAB comes along and takes the locket, I am left wondering?why leave > it with the same protections as before? Whoever took the locket left > a note, a note written to LV, so why bother to replace the locket? > > RAB gains entry into the cave, and manages to find the hidden lake. > DD tells Harry that the concealment of the hidden doorway is somewhat > rudimentary (paraphrasing here). Then RAB crosses the lake, and > drinks from the bucket. RAB then manages to take real!locket and > replaces it with fake!locket. RAB must then refill the bucket with > the poison that he/she just drank, cross the lake and put the boat > back, then seal the wall up. > > Are we to assume that the poison in the bucket is a rudimentary a > spell as the spell to hide the lake? Perhaps it is not as strong as > many (myself included) have given it credit for. But assuming that > the poison is very dark and very deadly, then RAB must have been a > rather competent wizard to not only survive the poison, but be able > to reproduce the same poison and place back into the bucket. > > Alternatively, if LV wants to get the locket back, does LV have to > drink the poison? And if not, then perhaps other dark wizards who > can identify the poison can also manage to summon it away without > drinking it. > > Greenfirespike > > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from > posts to which you're replying! > > > > ________________________________ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > ________________________________ > From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 20:21:36 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:21:36 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137725 "tbernhard2000" wrote: > Snape deserves to die Agreed. > but neither Harry nor I are bent on revenge. Speak for yourself. Harry is not Dumbledore who seems incapable of hate or even to fully understand what the word means, but Harry understands because he is more human. As Dumbledore says Harry can love but he can also hate and there is nobody on the planet he hates more than Severus Snape, and that includes Voldemort. > Harry, being beyond mere revenge, isn't > all that interested in getting the > murderer Snape I think you're wrong, I think Harry has more than a passing interest in murdering Snape, I certainly hope so. At least once before this series is over I want to see Harry Potter turn into Dirty Harry, I want to see him become positively scary. I really hope JKR doesn't take this winning ultimate victories with nothing but love business too far. When Harry and Snape meet again as I'm sure they will I don't want to hear wimpy stuff about forgive and forget, and I don't want Harry to kill Snape with love, I want a bloodbath, I want gunfight at the OK Corral, I want Night of The Living Dead grade rage on Harry's part. And I have my hopes because Harry is not a saint like Dumbledore, thank goodness. Eggplant From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Mon Aug 15 20:24:48 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:24:48 -0000 Subject: Question about the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137726 I think that the reason that Draco and his cronies were able to find the DA's version of the RoR was that Cho's friend Marietta had told them where they were and that the room probably wasn't even hidden. In OOtP though the other DA member's just knocked gently on the door, so presumably it just wasn't hidden at that time, maybe this was part of it's 'requirement' that it stayed visible for all those Harry wanted to enter, and maybe Harry taught everyone how to find it if it wasn't there, maybe, and more likely, it was permenantly visible. My thoughts on why Harry couldn't find Draco's version of the Room was because Draco was actually in the Room for hiding things, which would naturally stay hidden until someone wanted to hide something. After all that was where the Broken Cabinet was when Harry hid the HBP's potion book and it was there that Trewlawny found Malfoy when she was hiding Sherry bottles. If Harry at some point had gone back to retrieve the potions book, he might have found Malfoy there fixing the cabinet. Mandy --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > The Lexicon describes the Room of Requirement as a magical room which > can only be discovered by someone who is in need. The room will > appear when someone walks past the wall three times while > concentrating on what they need. > > We know that in OotP, The DA used the room for meetings. The room > stocked itself with useful books and objects one would use for DADA > lessons. > In OotP, Chapter 27, the Inquisitorial Squad discovered the DA had > been using the room. They found the room and the list of all of the > members hanging on the wall. I recall some theories that because the > I.S. needed some evidence against the DA, the room provided it for > them. > > However, in Chapter 21 of HPB, we see Harry trying to get the room to > appear to show him what Draco was up to. The door to the room never > appears. > > Why doesn't the room give Harry what he needs? Was what he requested > not specific enough? Is it because Harry didn't *need* to know what > Draco was up to, he only *wants* to know? > Or does the room not allow people to see what other's are using it > for? But if that is the case, why did the room allow the I.S. to see > what the DA was up to, but not allow Harry to see what Draco was up > to? > > Any thoughts? > > Demetra From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 20:31:45 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:31:45 -0000 Subject: Boredom? (Was: Re: Medieval attitudes) In-Reply-To: <20050815194414.91844.qmail@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "d." wrote: > I've seen a lot of Pro-Snape theories based on analyzing and > speculating textual clues, but most the black&white evil Snape > arguments I've seen, instead of basing in text, always just boil > down to "I hate Snape, now i have a reason to be in denial all his > ambiguities and hate him as nothing but a evil villain!!" or bunch > of completely biased righteous self-projection onto what you think > JKR's theme is, what makes a better book in your opinon (as if you > know better than JKR). These gets old and tiring very quickly. That's not fair. :) Everyone is projecting based on what theme they are, but there are certainly nuanced 'Snape is probably evil' positions, such as my own (post #134239, 135097). It's a point of personal preference to express that something would be boring, but here's a listing of possibilities and some comments: 1. Snape is completely good and everything done has been completely planned. I take that as a little boring because it's too easily arrived at as an inversion of the text--take everything Harry believes and flip it, like reading Newspeak. Steamrollers over some big events. [I admit, I would find "Harry, suck it up and deal because Snape has been right the entire time" to be boring because it's a pose of near- complete acquiescence on Harry's part. Not a usual heroic role, and an especially poor one for someone defined by his willingness to take action.] 2. Snape is completely evil and has been lying the whole time. Also pretty boring, for general readings of theme; steamrollers over some big events. 3. Snape is currently good, but things have gone somewhat wrong and solutions have had to be improvised. More interesting, IMO, and can take account of more aspects of the text without spinning extremely complex explanations. 4. Snape is currently evil, but he was not always committed and has fallen onto that side from his position on the double agent fence. If you read back in the archives, that's what I've advocated in the past, and Lupinlore has as well. I think it's interesting. YMMV. > And just a reminder for those who thinks HBP should be the end for > Harry being right, coz OMG there's only one book left~~~ Let's not > forget we still have an unresolved theme of "eyes", of glasses > being Harry's "weakness", and glasses as a metaphor of a bias filter > that Harry used to see the world. And then there's Lily's eyes... Assuming that is indeed going to be the theme continued--your preference, but it may happen, may not. -Nora can't wait to untangle the thematic web once the plot line is done From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 15 20:31:53 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:31:53 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: snip > I think you're wrong, I think Harry has more than a passing interest > in murdering Snape, I certainly hope so. At least once before this > series is over I want to see Harry Potter turn into Dirty Harry, I > want to see him become positively scary. I really hope JKR doesn't > take this winning ultimate victories with nothing but love business > too far. When Harry and Snape meet again as I'm sure they will I don't > want to hear wimpy stuff about forgive and forget, and I don't want > Harry to kill Snape with love, I want a bloodbath, I want gunfight at > the OK Corral, I want Night of The Living Dead grade rage on Harry's > part. And I have my hopes because Harry is not a saint like > Dumbledore, thank goodness. > I think you are reading the wrong books if that is what you expect. I doubt JKR will do that, as these are supposed to be children's books. There hasn't been a bloodbath yet, and I doubt there will be. Let's not forget, Voldemort is the EVIL guy, the true villian. Snape, well, is just Snape and no one, except Rowling, knows what side he will be on. colebiancardi From tim at marvinhold.com Mon Aug 15 20:34:57 2005 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:34:57 -0000 Subject: Why would RAB put poison back into the bucket? In-Reply-To: <008601c5a1d4$63f73050$bb3a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Why put poison back into the bucket? > > Greenfirespike > > > > Sherry now: > > I've wondered if perhaps the potion replenishes itself. You know, someone > drinks it, and eventually it reappears in the basin. Maybe, that's a way > out idea, but there has to be an explanation why it is there, if RAB had to > drink it previously. > > sherry We don't know if RAB drank it or found another way to get by it. We don't even know was put there by LV or RAB. There is a chance the fake locket was bait and the potion was RAB's trap for LV. Tim From prep0strus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 20:41:14 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:41:14 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Slughorn now...for some reason I always think it's Slugworth...is > that a character in another story? And I always think of Hagrid and > his Flesh Eating Slug Repellent. Not a very pleasant name, is it? Slugworth is one of the rival chocolate makers in Roald Dahl's Charlie & the Chocolate Factory, and is the one who one of Wonka's lackey's pretends to be to set up a fake bribe situation for the children in the first movie adaptation Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. And I always think of Slugworth as well... Slughorn really is a gross name. It just doesn't seem slick enough a name for a networking Slytherin. But, then, he's not very slick really. I think Dumbledore's affection for him is strange. He's clearly a 'good' person, who doesn't go in for actual evil. But he's not a nice person, not a fair person, and not a person who stands for much that Dumbedore stands for - but then, neither does Snape. When will we see a TRULY good slytherin. Slytherin, according to the hat, is for the ambitious, which doesn't have to have other negative qualities associated with it - the twins, Percy, Hermione - these could all be considered ambitious people, while Crabbe and Goyle don't seem to have ambition beyond the next meal, as well as for 'those whose blood are purest', which we already know isn't true, based on Snape & Riddle. So, really, it's for those who are unpleasant, unfair, and possibly with a tendency toward evil. I get the feeling the Houses are something that JKR got trapped in, and don't really fit with what they've been described to be. Cedric could be Gryffindor, Hermione could be Ravenclaw, Neville could be Hufflepuff... but no one appealing could be in Slytherin. ~Prep0strus From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 20:42:19 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:42:19 -0000 Subject: Muggle technology as a weapon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rt11guru" wrote: > I think it would be a hoot if Arthur, Hermione, and Harry surprise a > DE with a weapon or artifact of Muggle technology that the DEs don't > understand and therefore have no defense for. It would be doubly > sweet if it were Lucius Malfoy. > > Guru I most definitely like this idea, though I'm not sure what element of muggle technology would work. A mere weapon doesn't seem like enough; wizards who can restore splinched legs, for example, seem likely to be able to handle anything that's plain old destructive. Besides, it would be better if a little creativity (and humor) were involved. But what? Superglue? Maybe airplanes would have to be involved since Arthur is so curious about how they stay up. On a related topic, I noticed an instance somewhere in HBP where Harry used an expression related to muggle technology. Unfortunately I didn't note exactly where this occurred. For some reason, I think the expression had something to do with VCRs or tapes of some kind, something like "rewind the tape". Did anyone else catch it? Ersatz Harry From lealess at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 21:28:41 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:28:41 -0000 Subject: Why Lily didn't have to die. In-Reply-To: <6.4af96d08.3031f70a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bjebenstreit at a... wrote: > Sherry wrote: > > My big problem with the whole idea of lily and Snape ever having > dated is the worst memory scene. I just can't believe she'd > go out with someone who called her that. > > Cheryl: > > I think that there may be a > chance that they were friends (see my prior posts about whether it > was possible they were childhood friends) or slightly more at some > point before this incident. > > Ethanol: > > I think it is possible that Lily and Snape became friends *after* > this incident. > > So working two years together on a subject they both liked *had* > to change the Snape/Lily relationship in some way. Maybe not > dating, but possibly friendship or at least respect. > > If I had to bet my money, I'd say that Snape was in love with Lily, > but didn't act on it. > Possibly because James's rescue of Snape redeemed James in Lily's > eyes enough to reconsider him and notch him up to boyfriend > material. > > > And here is another point: Rowling at least thinks it is possible > to fall in love with somebody > you've insulted and hurt and have this someone return these > feelings. Who? Ron and Hermione! > lealess: I do not see the name-calling as a tremendous hurdle to friendship, because if Lily can forgive James for being a two-on-one bully, she can probably forgive Severus for using an offensive word. On the other hand, I think Lily had a romantic interest in James early on, especially since Rowling basically said in her Mugglenet interview that Lily hated James so much she must have loved him, "You're a woman, you know what I'm saying." She says that Lily "was like Ginny, she was a popular girl. She was a popular girl, and that is relevant. But I think you've seen that already. She was a bit of a catch." (Have we seen that already? Rowling also thinks that Ginny is "warm and compassionate" -- I didn't really see that, either.) So, Lily loved James all along. I don't think Lily had a change of heart because James lessened his bullying and arrogance as he grew up. Anyway, James did not do that completely. Severus was always the exception. James did not stop attacking him (and probably vice versa). I also do not think the Shrieking Shack incident would have changed Lily's mind about James because how would she have even known about it? Severus was probably sworn to secrecy, and if James or his friends boasted at the time of James saving someone's life, especially considering the circumstances what heroes! She probably never loved Severus. In 5th Year, she thought he was "as bad" as James. Severus being hexed by James and Sirius was probably like seeing a dog being kicked, to her; you intervene until the dog bites you, and you probably don't adopt the dog on the spot. I doubt Lily and Severus were childhood friends. If so, wouldn't she have helped him with his social akwardness and dark ways? Would she have discarded him at school in favor of her more popular peers? They may have become friends over NEWT Potions. Perhaps her selfless, empathetic saintliness meant that she actually found something to like in him. Or, if they had a personal relationship at Hogwarts at all, Lily may have taken pity on the gangly, weirdo- brainiac, non-sporty, non-popular Severus, and looked at him as a house-elf-type reform project, taking him home to show him a "normal" family, and so on. Maybe she was a bit of a rebel, hanging out with the really bad boy. Maybe she even respected him, after 5th year. I like the idea of them being friendly rivals, frankly. If she ever dated him, much less loved him, at Hogwarts, I will be absolutely bowled over. Her generosity was probably more abstract than that. If popularity is relevant, then perhaps Severus the Slytherin tried to cultivate Lily as a means to gain popularity for himself. But he may have also harbored romantic feelings. Stupid misfit, he should have controlled those weakening emotions and stopped trying to overreach his station in life right at that moment, because, duh, "Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea!" I am guessing the person who loved Severus (besides Dumbledore) was his mother. This is the pattern in the books: mother love is self- sacrificing nobility. And, well, lots of mothers love their children, but they screw up their lives big time. One example of many: women with children who remain in violent relationships. I have tremendous compassion for them, but their decisions are rarely black or white, nor are the consequences. Their lives are far more complicated than that. Anyway, it's all speculation. lealess From barbfulton at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 20:20:19 2005 From: barbfulton at yahoo.com (Barb Fulton) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:20:19 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137733 Barb now: Sorry if I oversnipped, but I only want to respond to 1 tiny bit of a very long post. I also apologize if I give credit to the wrong person for a quote-I'm doing my best, as I haven't posted in a long time... marydianne3123: > I too am interested in Slughorn. I am interested to know why JK > pointed out that he is a metamorph if it is not revelant in some > way. hg: > Me, too. I thought it possible for Slughorn to have taken > Dumbledore's place in the cave/tower scene; particularly compelling > to me are: the potions knife, the eyes reflected green in the basin, > the highly dramatic death. Even if I can't determine one way or > another that it was Slughorn, his metamorphmagus skills would likely > come into play later. Barb now: Where does it say that Slughorn is a metamorphmagus? I know he transforms into an armchair (LOVE that, btw!), but we know that human transfiguration is possible, through wand-usage and potions (Tonks speaking in OOP, page 62 Am. ed. "Well, you'll have to learn the hard way, I'm afraid," said Tonks. "Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand or potions to change their appearance." I always assumed that Slughorn transfigured himself, and the spell ended when he got poked by DD-he was too distracted to keep the spell going. If there is other canon that says that Slughorn is a metamorphmagus, I missed it, but I don't think the armchair incident is any indicator of whether or not he is one. Back to lurkdom... -Barb, who is very interested in Slughorn, but doesn't think he and DD pulled a switch. DD, to my great sorrow, is lost to us. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 21:28:55 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:28:55 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137734 "eggplant107" wrote: snip I think you're wrong, I think Harry has more than a passing interest in murdering Snape, I certainly hope so. At least once before this series is over I want to see Harry Potter turn into Dirty Harry, I want to see him become positively scary. I really hope JKR doesn't take this winning ultimate victories with nothing but love business too far. When Harry and Snape meet again as I'm sure they will I don't want to hear wimpy stuff about forgive and forget, and I don't want Harry to kill Snape with love, I want a bloodbath, I want gunfight at the OK Corral, I want Night of The Living Dead grade rage on Harry's part. And I have my hopes because Harry is not a saint like Dumbledore, thank goodness. colebiancardi: I think you are reading the wrong books if that is what you expect. I doubt JKR will do that, as these are supposed to be children's books. There hasn't been a bloodbath yet, and I doubt there will be. Let's not forget, Voldemort is the EVIL guy, the true villian. Snape, well, is just Snape and no one, except Rowling, knows what side he will be on. Marianne S: I have to agree with colebiancardi that you're reading the wrong books (or misreading the right books?) if you think there's going to be a rage from Harry that ends in death of Snape and others. We have already seen that Harry has made life or death choices. He may have initially regretted not allowing Peter to die, but I think Harry will see that saving Peter will at some point be very useful. We also already saw Harry regret what he did to Draco and even pity him. I fully expect to see Harry come face to face with Snape, but hopefully something will get in the way of allowing Harry to murder. The theme of choices and love, I believe, will play out in Snape's redemption because Snape chose to see only James, whom he hated, in Harry instead of Lily, whom he may have loved, but maybe he will choose to accept the choices he made and the fact that Harry is not exactly like his father, that he shows some of Lily's compassion. Not that this makes the horribly abusive way Snape treated Harry forgiveable. I believe that by Patronus or by Phoenix or by Portrait or by Some Other Way, there will be communication from Dumbledore that will let people know Snape's purpose to the mission. Perhaps by some recognition of the wrong choices he has made amidst the right ones (saving lives, not killing Harry, not allowing others to kill Harry) Snape can play a part in destroying the horcruxes. I can only see Snape dying if he does so in order to save Harry/destroy Voldemort. I don't see Harry using an unforgiveable curse on Snape, Voldemort, or anyone. All canon aside, I really doubt that the JK Rowling that has one of the only 7 links on her official website dedicated to Amnesty International would be an author that would allow her hero to use unforgiveable curses to kill anyone. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 21:36:30 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:36:30 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137735 "colebiancardi" wrote: > I doubt JKR will do that, as these > are supposed to be children's books. It came to pass that JKR read the message as she has read thousands and thousands like it before. You're a good children's author JKR but always remember that you're just that, a children's author. As a children's author JKR you must follow the rules and the most important is that you must always .. As a children's author JKR you must never in your wildest dreams even hint that .. As a children's author JKR you must always make it perfectly clear that .. And so JKR sat down at her typewriter with an evil grin on her face. So I'm just a lowly children's author am I. I'm a mere children's author am I, I must follow all the silly rules do I, well the fact is that now I'm billionaire, I have far far more money than I will ever know what to do with. And that means I can now do anything I please, absolutely positively anything. And they try to tell me what to do, ME, JKR, the sole surviving descendent of the noble Harry Potter. So they think I'm just a lowly children's author do they, I'll show them just what a "children's author" is capable of, I'll write a story that will curl the blood, I'll write a story that will cause world outrage, I'll write a story that will give Stephen King nightmares. Weird sinister laughter could be heard echoing off the walls of JKR's enormous Scottish castle as she attacked her typewriter. Eggplant From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 21:39:37 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:39:37 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137736 > hg: Even if I can't determine one way or another that it was Slughorn, his metamorphmagus skills would likely come into play later. > > > Barb now: > > Where does it say that Slughorn is a metamorphmagus? I know he > transforms into an armchair (LOVE that, btw!), but we know that > human transfiguration is possible, through wand-usage and potions > (Tonks speaking in OOP, page 62 Am. ed. "Well, you'll have to learn > the hard way, I'm afraid," said Tonks. "Metamorphmagi are really > rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand or > potions to change their appearance." I always assumed that Slughorn > transfigured himself, and the spell ended when he got poked by DD- he > was too distracted to keep the spell going. hg: Good point, it doesn't say that outright. I just made a safe assumption that he was since we've never seen him with a wand. JK makes very careful mention of his hands and eyes throughout the book, and I don't recall ever seeing a wand. I admit the possibility of him being excellent at transfiguration without being a natural-born metamorphmagus. hg. From doliesl at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 21:52:51 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050815215251.29370.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137737 --- colebiancardi wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" > > I think you're wrong, I think Harry has more than a passing interest > > in murdering Snape, I certainly hope so. At least once before this > > series is over I want to see Harry Potter turn into Dirty Harry, I > > want to see him become positively scary. I really hope JKR doesn't > > take this winning ultimate victories with nothing but love business > > too far. When Harry and Snape meet again as I'm sure they will I > > want to hear wimpy stuff about forgive and forget, and I don't want > > Harry to kill Snape with love, I want a bloodbath, I want gunfight at > > the OK Corral, I want Night of The Living Dead grade rage on Harry's > > part. And I have my hopes because Harry is not a saint like > > Dumbledore, thank goodness. > > I think you are reading the wrong books if that is what you expect. I > doubt JKR will do that, as these are supposed to be children's books. > There hasn't been a bloodbath yet, and I doubt there will be. Let's > not forget, Voldemort is the EVIL guy, the true villian. Snape, well, > is just Snape and no one, except Rowling, knows what side he will be > on. See what I mean by Snape stealing LV's thunder? XD LV did nothing for anyone, it is Snape, always Snape that touch the heart of readers. And the deeply disturbed and angry rabid Snape haters here demands blood and death, a la Death Wish. I wonder what would happen if for some miraclous reason this fictional character didn't end up dead nor bad ending at the end, what are you poor wounded souls gonna do? The rage~~~ oh my~~ Eggplant is definitely reading the wrong book to me. JKR is no Mel Gibson, if Harry were to murder Snape in some primal rage, then Harry and his so-called "goodness" (and his supposedly GREAT super power of LUV) is complete bullsh*t, or as Ginny would say, Harry is the biggest, disgusting, vile and filthy hypocrite! There's no way Harry-the-boy-who-has-the-remarkable-love-powered hero is "heroic" and "good" if he's a murderous killer. He'd be just like the "murderer Snape" that he accused Snape of, what's the difference? How DARE Harry-the-murderer to consider himself different and 'good', puhleaze...it's pathetic. Even Draco didn't had it in him to kill. Yet Eggplant expects Harry to? Eggplant, face it, Harry is LOVE and GOOD! You can get your dirty Harry in fanfic. But in the book, Harry, has remarkable capacity of love and empathy (whatever that means), he let Peter Pettigrew go, it is LOVE that JKR set Harry up for, it is LOVE who sets Harry apart from as superior. Love love love love love...that is Harry...makes you sick? If so then you're going to be greatly disappointed when book 7 comes. Snape deserves to die as much as (as if death is the worst thing ever could happen to a fictional character *roll eye*)...Harry/Ginny deserves to be written more convincing and likable way if they're like oh so important. it's all...just readers' raging wishful demands. D. From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Aug 15 20:28:08 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:28:08 -0000 Subject: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: <20050815194414.91844.qmail@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137738 "d." wrote: > Yeah what the grand Snape debate (at least on HPFGU) really comes down is each reader > (whatever 'sides' you lean toward) project his/her own demand for JKR for favoring their > vision+expectation, with the same excuse of "well that makes the story boring, contrived, > unsatisfying okay!?!?". That is the weakest argument you can have, because those who > disagree with you say the same thing about your dear mighty vision. I'm not really sure anybody is "demanding" anything. People are just stating their own visions of what would, for them, constitute good writing -- that is, a story that is meaningful, satisfying, and that hangs together in terms of plot and character. It stands to reason that the differences on that are extreme. To expand on what I said above, I really don't see anyway that JKR could come down squarely on EITHER side without it being a contrived and somewhat mechanistic ending. That is, I find both ESE!Snape and DumbledoresMan!Snape to be unsatisfying and uninspired -- although I will admit that DumbledoresMan!Snape strikes me as more contrived and uninteresting than the other. In any case, I am hoping that JKR takes advantage of the rich potential that exists BETWEEN those two visions of Snape to craft a truly believable and interesting character. It is true that all of Snape's actions can be explained within the framework of DumbledoresMan!Snape AND/OR within the framework of ESE!Snape. In both cases the explanations get forced and tentative at times due to the fact we have a paucity of information. But maybe with Snape what you see is what you get? Maybe the good actions he has taken are evidence of genuine Good in the character and the evil actions concurrently evidence of genuine Evil (capital letters very much intended in each case). A character who never changes and remains absolutely loyal and steady to one goal, whose every action can be explained by reference to one decision made sixteen years ago (whether that decision was to be loyal to Dumbledore or to Voldemort) is not a real person. That kind of character is only a walking plot device, perhaps contrived for some moral message or another (either nice is not the same as good or tolerance can be dangerous if taken to extremes, both of which are literally true but both of which are also equally simplistic). A character torn BETWEEN conflicting good and evil urges, whose actions swerve from one side to the other, is a much more believable and interesting individual. Frankly I'm not the slightest bit interested in an evil DE who has been fooling Dumbledore for sixteen years, nor am I attracted to a super spy who has remained rock-solid loyal for sixteen years despite evidence and appearances to the contrary. A spy who was, for instance, basically loyal to Dumbledore but who, in the press of the moment, just couldn't bring himself to die for the old man, who perhaps rationalized that he was only doing what he must for the Cause even though deep in his heart he new he was being a coward, who must now find a way back to the light through his own mistakes and the hatred of others -- now THAT would be character worth reading about! Lupinlore From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 21:59:26 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:59:26 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > > > hg: > Even if I can't determine one way or > another that it was Slughorn, his metamorphmagus skills would likely > come into play later. > > > > > > Barb now: > > > > Where does it say that Slughorn is a metamorphmagus? I know he > > transforms into an armchair (LOVE that, btw!), but we know that > > human transfiguration is possible, through wand-usage and potions > > (Tonks speaking in OOP, page 62 Am. ed. "Well, you'll have to learn > > the hard way, I'm afraid," said Tonks. "Metamorphmagi are really > > rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand or > > potions to change their appearance." I always assumed that Slughorn > > transfigured himself, and the spell ended when he got poked by DD- > he > > was too distracted to keep the spell going. > > hg: > Good point, it doesn't say that outright. I just made a safe > assumption that he was since we've never seen him with a wand. JK > makes very careful mention of his hands and eyes throughout the book, > and I don't recall ever seeing a wand. I admit the possibility of > him being excellent at transfiguration without being a natural- born > metamorphmagus. > > hg. a_svirn: We don't know whether he *was* transformed. It could have been a very elaborate optical illusion, of a kind that only a wizard of Dumbledore calibre would have seen through. From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 21:59:25 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:59:25 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: <20050815135520.40217.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137740 hermionegallo wrote: Isn't anyone interested in Slughorn? I posted a couple of days ago postulating that he could have faked Dumbledore's death; I find him to be a compelling character. It's #137521, in case someone was interested and missed it. catkind: I'm interested in Slughorn, though, because I'm not at all sure what we're supposed to make of him. Personally, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. I too am intrested in Slughorn. I am intrested to know why JK pointed out that he is a metamorph if it is not revelant in some way. marydianne3123 Deb writes: Ah but she did not say he is a metamorph... not exactly any way. We know he can shape shift ... into a chair! That's the first time in HPverse that some one has changed shape into an inanimate object ... Lupin is a werewolf, an involuntary shape shifter; James, Sirius, Peter, Rita Skeeter, McGonagall all are animagi though McGonagall is the only registered one that we know about(Pity Hermione has not seen fit to tell us who the other 6 registered animagi of this century are); Tonks is a metamorphmagus who can change her physical appearance at will ... it might be possible for her to become a chair or an animal but we do not know that for sure. I've been wondering, especially given that song Slughorn and Hagrid were singing so boozily after Aragog's funeral, whether he might be a true shapeshifter.... The song they were singing was about a wizard named Odo... also the name of the shapeshift from Deep Space Nine who could be come any person, animal, or thing he chose to... and in resting state that Odo was just a slime pool.... oozy.. like a slug... Deb - just keeping things lively by throwing out yet another wheezing waffle.... From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 15 22:04:07 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? Message-ID: <00a801c5a1e5$439925a0$bb3a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137741 As the Snape debates have raged since the release of HBP--although when have Snape debates not raged--those on either side of the argument have fiercely and valiantly defended their positions. It has been wonderful spirited debate, and I've enjoyed it, even when I disagree. However, lately, we who believe Snape is pure evil have been accused of things such as being unsophisticated readers or attacking the author or being boring or various other such things. I, for one, have never said such things about Snape defenders. So, ok, i thought I'd tackle this thing. I'm responding to several things, so if I don't attribute correctly, please forgive me. I'm trying to keep it general, because I do not want to seem to be accusing any one person or group of people. I am merely defending the Snape detractors. It has been said that we do not argue with canon, that the Snape defenders use piles of canon to back up their opinions, but we do not. That we only react on emotion or just because we hate Snape. We are unsophisticated because we actually like Harry Potter. Ok, in many, many posts in the last few weeks, several Snape detractors have reiterated that they interpret the canon in different ways. For example, the fight between Harry and Snape is seen by Snape defenders as Snape giving Harry one more lesson as he flees Hogwarts. To me, as a Snape detractor, I see it as taunting. same canon, different interpretation. Defenders claim that Snape's rage at being called coward is because he has just committed the noble brave act of murdering the one person in the world who trusted and believed in him. As a detractor, I ask, and i have asked several times, how is it brave to murder a weak and sick old man? in any society that is considered murder and would have you off to court and prison. As for the Dumbledore was dying argument, again, there is no actual canon that says definitively Dumbledore is dying from the poison in the basin in the cave. It's been said that if Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, that would not be considered murder. I would think that in the minds of the WW, it would still be murder, as much as it would be murder in the eyes of a family member if my defense upon killing my best friend was that my friend begged me to do it. As for canon on the detractor side, several of us have said that from all we know of Dumbledore, over six books, we believe it is absolutely out of character for Dumbledore to ask anyone to commit murder. Now especially since HBP, because we have learned about horcruxes and been told that murder splits the soul. My interpretation of canon Dumbledore is that he would not under any circumstances ask another person to commit murder, and especially not Snape. Snape's soul must already have been torn by murder, or are we supposed to believe that his years as a death eater were free of murder, either by potions or by unforgivable curses? Dumbledore, Dumbledore, of any character in the entire series, ask another person to kill? We have even been told in the past that the great auror Moody didn't use the unforgivable Curses. Are we really supposed to believe Dumbledore would expect Snape to do so? This is from my interpretation of canon, not my admittedly emotional feelings about the act of taking another person's life for any reason. Ok, the great Snape Dumbledore plan. Again, my interpretation of Canon doesn't see a plan that would end up in Dumbledore's murder by Snape. It can't possibly help the cause because nobody on the good side will believe anything Snape says. Dumbledore was making plans to help Draco right up to the moment that Snape swept onto the scene. again, this is canon. Is this a man who is expecting to die? most of all, Harry, in OOTP, as has been pointed out by several detractors, Dumbledore admits he had a plan that went all wrong because he failed to inform Harry. So, please, explain to me, why, why, why, would Dumbledore not inform Harry this time around? He has been alone with Harry many times during the year, with ample opportunities to fill him in. I don't buy the Voldemort might see into his mind theory, because Harry knows a lot of things that Dumbledore might wish Voldemort did not know. He even tells Harry that Voldemort has realized the danger to his own plans by being in Harry's head. JKR tells us Harry won't be good at occlumency, because he is too emotional. i think the whole occlumency story line is done. Just my interpretation of canon. The pleading words of Dumbledore. I don't think any Snape detractors have claimed that Dumbledore was pleading for his life. we know from canon, that Dumbledore does not fear death. "Death is the next great adventure." But I don't think Dumbledore would want to die with his work unfinished. Draco and Harry are both examples of unfinished work, to me anyway. I don't know what the pleading, but even if it was, "don't betray me, Severus." I can imagine that. Dumbledore's version of "Judas, must you betray me with a kiss?" Harry, Harry, Harry. Yes, I am biased in Harry's behalf. I first met him as a 15 month old infant, being held in the arms of a giant on a flying motor bike. I fell for that child. I wondered what would happen to him when he was left on the Dursleys' door step. He's not mature enough to be as complicated or complex as Snape seems to be. that takes years of living. Yet, Harry is the hero. the books are named for him. Unlike some others, I don't find him boring or uninteresting. I admit I like many of the adult characters, Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius, Moody, but I do still enjoy Harry's life. He seems to me to have about the right mix of boy and hero to make him interesting. He struggles with his fame; he has a saving people thing; he has a temper; he rushes in before he thinks; he has to learn so many things the hard way; he doesn't ask questions and it's hard for him to learn to trust adults in that way; he argues with his friends; he falls for a shallow pretty face like Cho; he save the life of his nasty bully of a cousin; he learns to feel pity for Draco, even if it's just a little pity, definite maturing there; he has a lot of self doubt and doesn't see himself as being as strong as I think he is or will be. I do find him interesting. I don't think that makes me unsophisticated. after all, I find a lot of people in the RW to be very interesting as well. JKR has written six books so far about Harry potter. She has made him interesting to me. She has made me care about what happens to him and made me want to see him be the true hero, for that saving people thing of his to win the day at last! As for criticizing the author, each side has claimed that the way the other side sees it would be boring and bad writing. it isn't a question of that for me. I write, but I do not think I can write this story better than JKR, or that the way I see things is the right or only way they should go. Please, don't put words in our mouths. I have said that I may not like the way things go, and there are certain things that would cause me not to want to read future books by JKR. That is not a criticism of her skill as a writer. I think she is a brilliant story teller. In future, I may not want to read the stories she tells, but that doesn't make them any less brilliant. so, no matter whose version of Snape is correct, she has done a great job. Her story has taken the world by storm, got kids reading again, created massive debates over characters like Snape, ships and anything else. I respect her very much. I read her stuff and think, I could never tell a story like that! So, I am not criticizing JKR, when I say there are show stoppers for me. I would just be saying, if that time comes, that there are some stories I don't like to read. that is not a put down of the teller. However, I have confidence, that however Jo ends the series, she will not disappoint. She hasn't disappointed me yet, and I don't expect that she will. Whatever she ends up doing, she will make it work. Sherry From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 22:10:16 2005 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:10:16 -0000 Subject: Why would RAB put poison back into the bucket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" > wrote: > > Why put poison back into the bucket? > > > Greenfirespike > > > > > > > > Sherry now: > > > > I've wondered if perhaps the potion replenishes itself. You know, > someone > > drinks it, and eventually it reappears in the basin. Maybe, that's > a way > > out idea, but there has to be an explanation why it is there, if > RAB had to > > drink it previously. > > > > sherry > > We don't know if RAB drank it or found another way to get by it. We > don't even know was put > there by LV or RAB. There is a chance the fake locket was bait and > the potion was RAB's trap > for LV. > > Tim mhbobbin writes: I like this idea of bait...LV drinks the deadly poison knowing he will have access to his horcrux to save him...only to learn the horcrux is a fake, just before he dies. Of course, this line of thinking assumes that LV only had one horcrux and if destroyed, LV could be destroyed. We don't yet know how many, or if any other, horcruxes were found by RAB. If RAB didn't know there were other horcruxes, his efforts were wasted as well as Dumbledore's. Mhbobbin From mkbre0829 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 22:52:13 2005 From: mkbre0829 at yahoo.com (mkbre0829) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:52:13 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but.../ Is HP still children books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137743 Colebiancardi: > I think you are reading the wrong books if that is what you expect. I > doubt JKR will do that, as these are supposed to be children's books. > There hasn't been a bloodbath yet, and I doubt there will be. Let's > not forget, Voldemort is the EVIL guy, the true villian. Snape, well, > is just Snape and no one, except Rowling, knows what side he will be > on. But, Cole, are these still children's books? Numbers 1-4 yes, #5? Well, maybe. #6? No more a children's book than LotR. JKR has made the same sort of literary metamorphosis that JRRT did when he went from The Hobbit to LotR -- just took her a few more books, while her intended audience grew with the books. (Keep in mind, a goodly number of the kids who've grown with HP are now in their late teens and early 20s -- quite able to absorb adult matters, don't you think?) As for the blood bath ... I hear where eggplant is coming from and I expect that if SS dies at the hand of HP, it wont be particularly pretty, but I truly hope it's not a true blood bath ... for Snape's sake. Frankly, I think it's more likely that SS will fall to V, just shortly before V falls to HP ... and HP to V ???? Mkbre. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 23:02:43 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:02:43 -0000 Subject: Ron, Xander, and the Useless Best Friend In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prep0strus" wrote: > I'm a huge fan of Ron, however, and so I was trying to think of > another example of a useless best friend. I don't have cable right > now, and a friend leant me the Buffy the Vampire series on DVD to > while away the hours, and there it is: Xander. Now you've done it. I'm in the middle of moving to a different city and I've been trying to stay away from making posts but you had to invoke my favorite character from my other favorite fandom. I love Xander. He's my favorite character on the show and I agree that serves a similar purpose in BTVS that Ron does in the Harry Potter series. But I don't think that either character is the 'useless best friend'. Both serve important and underrated roles in the their respective series. > The way both characters have been developed drives me nuts - they're > funny, loyal, with potential, but ultimately without anything that > really makes them special. If you don't think Xander is special you haven't seen enough of the series :) Someone actually went through the entire series and Xander has the second highest number of demon kills of any of the series next to Buffy. While Ron doesn't quite have background of cluch saves that Xander has, he is an important psychological rock for Harry to lean against. Which is why it was so ridiculous that in book six he didn't believe Harry that Draco had gotten the mark. When had he ever thought the best of Draco Malfoy? It would be the equivelent of Xander actually getting along with Angel. I haven't gotten all > the way through Buffy yet, but I've heard some of what happens... and > I just hope JKR gives Ron more in her last installment than poor > maligned Xander got. I do think that Ron needs to step up a little more in the next book. It seems to me that he really gets the short end of the characterization stick when it comes to the Trio and that's a shame. Similar to Xander in the later seasons of Buffy, but even with lessened screen time he stayed a strong force in the show. He has my two favorite scenes in all of season seven. It's interesting that you bring up BTVS, the show written by Joss Whedon. In a way I think JKR and Whedon have opposite flaws in their writing. JKR is a such a strongly plot driven writer she tends to sacrifice characterization in an effort to move her plot along (like Sirius or Dumbledore suddenly acting ooc in relation to their previous actions), while Whedon sacrifices plot in order to get his characters to the places he wants them to go emotionally (like Xander going from someone with the accuracy of an olypmic caliber archer in one episode to someone who can't fight his way out a paper bag in the next just so he can be rescued). In both cases it can lead to pretty glaring flaws in the story from two completely different directions-- which I think accounts for the flaws in the last two seasons of Buffy and the last two books of Harry Potter. phoenixgod2000, who should be packing right now instead of typing and is still bitter over firefly. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 23:08:29 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:08:29 -0000 Subject: Why would RAB put poison back into the bucket? - He didn't... In-Reply-To: <72f13ff2050815130554a557c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Echa wrote: > I simply assumed that the bucket had some charm placed on it that > caused it to refill itself with the same poison after it had been > emptied. > > v bboyminn: Sadly, all I can say is 'I agree', although, I plan to tack a lot more on to it. What we are seeing is a classic wizardly protection. Look at the protections around the Stone in the first book, instead of making them impossible to by-pass, each obstical was a deadly puzzle, and could be by-passed if the wizard was smart and quick witted enough. Again, we have the enchantments and creatures in the Tri-Wizard's Maze. The Sphinx is a classic example. The purpose of a Sphinx was to protect a treasure, but they protected it with a riddle; a riddle that only the sharpest minds could solve. Let's not forget the upside-down enchantment (golden fog). Many wizards would have been trapped in that upside-down fog until they rotted away, but the brave, or perhaps the foolhardy, would attempt to walk out and thereby succeed. That's how wizards protect things, with traps, puzzles, magical creatures, and enchantments. All of which are difficult and deadly, but to one who is wise enough and patient enough, they can all be by-passed. It's a challenge; who is smarter, the enchanter or the seeker? The protection on the Horcrux Locket is in the same vein. Most wizards would never get past the initial 'doorway' because they would never figure out how to open it with a sacrific of their own blood. So they would either stand there forever, or get bored and go away. Each new stage of protection, the boat, the interferi, the 'birdbath' containing the Locket, is a challenge of wits, skill, knowledge, power, and wisdom. Further, these can't just be 'one shot' enchantments. Voldemort plans to live for a LONG LONG time, forever, if possible; that means the protective enchantments have to be self-sustaining. They must present the same challenges to each new wizard who comes over the centuries. So, I conclude that each challenge, each protection resets itself at some point after the events have been resolved; resolved either by the challenging wizard defeating everything, or the protections defeating the challenging wizard. Note that the 'birdbath' potion was likely poison, so even if you win, you lose, unless you can get yourself to some competent help very very quickly. So, I agree, the potion refilled itself making the challenge and the protections ready and waiting for the next wizard to come. Again, remember that these protections must guard the object for centuries. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 23:14:18 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:14:18 -0000 Subject: Snape, the healer (Was: why did DD need Snape? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137746 Deb wrote: And Snape is a healer! (Snip) I also suspect that Snape was LV's Potions Master when he was first in the DEs... he may have been the one who created the potion in the bowl in the cave. So he would be the one to know any antidote that might exisit. Carol responds: I absolutely agree that Snape is a healer skilled in countering Dark Magic, which is why Dumbledore wants him and not Madam Pomfrey after he drinks the potion in the cave. Note that Snape also saved Dumbledore from the ring Horcrux and slowed the curse on Katie Bell so that she could safely be taken to St. Mungo's. (He may have broken the curse on the necklace itself as well since McGonagall has Filch deliver it to Snape.) We could even throw in the fact that Ron owes his life to Snape's knowledge of bezoars. And if he invented the Sectumsempra Curse, as we know he did, the countercurse also has to be his own invention. But I don't see how Snape could have created the potion (which appears to be poisoned thoughts or memories) in the Pensievelike bowl in the cave simply because he was only eleven when Voldemort returned and LV surely would have hidden his Horcruxes long before that, much waiting seven or eight more years till Severus was old enough to join the Death Eaters. I suppose it's possible that Voldemort rehid that particular Horcrux and that young Snape was asked to create a deterrent to prevent anyone from accessing it. That could explain how R.A.B. (almost certainly Regulus) could find the cave and steal the potion. Severus Snape, sharing Regulus's doubts but much more skilled at keeping his cover, told him about it. But why would he leave the ring Horcrux so easily accessible and not rehide it, too? Deb writes: LV was gone for many years according to canon between the time he left Borgin and Burkes after stealing the locket and cup, and went off to learn all he could about becoming immortal. (He did not, IMO, know how to do this when he left Hogwarts). When he came back that is when I think he began creating his Horcruxes preparing himself for the confrontation with DD and the OOP that was sure to come with all of the evil things he'd been doing (Fudge tells the Muggles PM that LV had committed over 1000 specific crimes) ... That cave and that lake are very big and probably could not have been created overnight. It may have taken LV and his DEs quite a while to create that space and put all the magic into it. LV had, I think, sealed the area when he first found it so no one else could trespass there - but he found it when he was a boy and certainly at that time he was not yet a trained wizard. Plus I also suspect that potion is very, very complex and needed an expert to create it. Snape appears to have left school and joined the DE's almost immediately (if he had not already joined while in school). IF RAB is indeed Sirius's younger brother (who we are told joined the DEs when he was about 16... Draco's age), Snape would be leaving school about the same time Regulus joined the DEs. And this young RAB was in Slytherin too... so they probably knew each other. Isn't it possible that LV's first task for young RAB was to go along and help Snape (LV's "new" potions expert-bet Snape got an Outstanding on his Potions' NEWT) finish the cave and the potions there? That would explain how RAB (again if this person is Regulus Black) found out about the cave, found out about Horcruxes which are a forbidden subject at Hogwarts, found out how to recapture the locket, and how to get back and forth across the lake. And it may have been what horrified him so much that he wanted out of the DEs quickly...either the ceremony required to make a Horcrux or the creation of the Inferi who are living in the lake... Carol writes: I'm not sure about Snape's involvement here, but I absolutely agree that he's a very powerful wizard and a healer, and I've always suspected that his role in the DEs was as a potion maker for Voldemort, who uses the talents and powers of his followers to his* best advantage. (See the Karkaroff hearing in GoF for specific examples.) Why send Snape out to Crucio unwilling followers or torture Muggles when his time is better spent searching among his walls full of books for the specific potion Voldemort needs, collecting the ingredients at the exact time required by the complicated directions, and carefully watching over that potion till it's ready? Bellatrix implies that Snape is in the habit of "slithering" out of DE activities (when he's not at Hogwarts, which would be an excuse in itself). No doubt he used the same strategy when he was young, especially after the death of Regulus or whatever caused his pre-Godric's Hollow change of heart. ("I can't join you, Bellatrix. I have a potion brewing.") Carol, noting that Snape, directly or indirectly, saves four people in HBP: Dumbledore (from the ring Horcrux), Katie Bell, Ron, and Draco (twice)--quite a record for someone perceived to be evil Deb adds: Plus saving Harry from performing a UC several times there at the end - for isn't saving some one from an act of folly that would tear their soul not also an act of a healer? "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 23:32:07 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:32:07 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137748 Prep0strus wrote: Slytherin, according to the hat, is for the ambitious, which doesn't have to have other negative qualities associated with it - the twins, Percy, Hermione - these could all be considered ambitious people, while Crabbe and Goyle don't seem to have ambition beyond the next meal, as well as for 'those whose blood are purest', which we already know isn't true, based on Snape & Riddle. So, really, it's for those who are unpleasant, unfair, and possibly with a tendency toward evil. I get the feeling the Houses are something that JKR got trapped in, and don't really fit with what they've been described to be. Cedric could be Gryffindor, Hermione could be Ravenclaw, Neville could be Hufflepuff... but no one appealing could be in Slytherin. vmonte: Who knows, maybe one of the horcrux's is inside the hat. If the hat gets destroyed by Harry, it might be the end of sorting children at Hogwarts. Vivian From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 00:25:10 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:25:10 -0000 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? In-Reply-To: <00a801c5a1e5$439925a0$bb3a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137749 Hi, Sherry, Just wanted to respond here to say that as someone who is convinced that Snape will not turn out to be just a death eater, no matter what his agenda is, I have never found the Snape detractors to be unsophisticated; on the contrary you and others who think Snape is evil make excellent arguments. Furthermore I always enjoy your posts which are both interesting and thoughtful. Don't feel discouraged or stop posting your ideas. I really hope I haven't made any Snape detractors feel that their opinions are not worth listening to, because I think exactly the opposite. warm regards, Mari. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 00:35:45 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:35:45 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137750 mimbeltonia wrote: > Dumbledore could have decided to trust him not on his honest > face and touching tale, but on basis of a carefully worded > unbreakable vow to fight Voldemort as a double agent whatever it > took. Thus, DD would know Snape was still faithful to their agreement > simply because Snape was still alive. Regardless of Snape being evil > or good, he would therefore be one of the most thrustworthy people > around DD, simply because being anything else would kill him at the > spot. Saraquel: I too have toyed with the idea that Snape might have taken an UV with DD, but one to protect Harry, as payment for the life-debt to James', which his action in blabbing the prophecy to Voldemort reneged on. *However*, my instinctive feeling is that DD is not the sort of person who would demand that. Somehow, I think DD wants people to make FREE choices, and a UV could be seen as a form of compulsion - Ok Severus, I'll believe you have repented when you take a UV. The faith here is in the power of the UV, rather than Severus. I think DD is more along the lines of: I'll have the faith in you that you have repented and in doing so will empower you to continue in this decision, knowing that if you lapse, you forsake the real power which my faith in you gave to you, and the chance to regain that most important of characteristics, self respect. It's often said on the list that Snape wants RESPECT and recognition. The reason he still wants it IMO is because he has no self respect. Saraquel From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 00:40:53 2005 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:40:53 -0000 Subject: Fawkes the Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137751 After rereading HBP a number of times, I decided to give more thought to the idea that DD intended Snape to kill him. So the natural question is if DD was planning his own death why would he let Snape do it? Why would he allow himself to die? The major theory so far is that DD meant his death as a way to ensure Snape's status within the Death Eaters, and to force Harry to become more of a Man. I have a different theory to put forth: DD allowed himself to die because he is not truly dead. How can he not be truly dead you ask? I would argue that DD had made a Horcrux. While reading HBP I was struck with how much magical knowledge DD has accumulated throughout his life. Not only does he know about ancient magic, and all good magic (for lack of a better term), he also knows a lot about dark magic. DD knew about Horcruxes before he heard Slughorn's memory, in fact in the memory, he had ban the subject of Horcruxes from Hogwarts. So I asked myself how would DD know about Horcruxes? I think the reason why he knows about Horcruxes is because he made one. We know of one possible killing that DD did, and that was his defeat of Grindelwald. He defeated Grindelwald at the age of 105 (according to the lexicon) and certainly 105 years is enough time to learn about horcruxes before he beat Grindelwald. So when I decided that DD made a Horcrux to put a stopper in dead as it were, he would allow himself to be killed my Snape. This leads to question what would be his Horcrux? Fawkes. Fawkes is extremely loyal to DD and is well controlled by DD just as Nagini is well controlled by Voldemort. Fawkes would be the perfect Horcrux because he could not be destroyed (save his natural death). Even Avada Kedavra could not kill Fawkes (he swallowed Voldemort's in the battle at the Ministry). Fawkes is also powerfully magical in that he can teleport (with passengers), lift heavy loads, his tears have healing qualities, and he his song has magical properties. What better horcrux could there be? It is risky putting a part of your soul in another living being, but it would not be very risky for DD and Fawkes because of the tremendous loyalty between the two. Finally I really do not want DD to be dead, so I know I am looking for ways out, but the death of DD reminded me of the Death of another great wizard: Gandalf. Gandalf seemingly died but came back to life, just as I hope DD will. Also one of DD middle names is Percival who just happens to be the knight from the tale of King Arthur who gained the Holy Grail (immortal life, or as close to immortality in the wizard world as one can get). John, who also points out that Fawkes and Horcux kinda rhyme. From phil at pcsgames.net Tue Aug 16 01:05:57 2005 From: phil at pcsgames.net (Phil Vlasak) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:05:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horcrux locations, whittling down the list References: Message-ID: <05a601c5a1fe$acb586f0$6600a8c0@phil> No: HPFGUIDX 137752 Phil adding two places to hide a Horcrux > > > > -Jen Reese- > > > 1) Hogwarts--very likely, given the significance to Riddle. > > > 2) Borgin and Burkes--maybe. Would have to be concealed pretty > > > well not to get sold! > > > 3) Azkaban--It might be interesting for Harry to see Azkaban > > > before the series is over. A Horcrux would be well-proteced > there. > > Possible. > > > 4) Godric's Hollow--unlikely (in my mind). The only significance > > > to Voldemort was Harry; he would not hide a Horcrux at GH > > > before the night he went to kill the Potters. > > > 5) Hepzibah Smith's house--No. Not safe enough, not significant > > > enough. > -aussie- Major snippage > In Hogwarts: > 6) the Chamber needed Parseltongue to enter, so DD may not have checked there. > > 7) DD didn't know how the Room of Requirements worked prior to OOTP, > and may not have explored the section where Draco was working during > HBP. > > 8) DD didn't check the Slytherin common room area, although students > weren't happy with Snape poking around there. Snape may have been > less effective (on purpose?) at checking their common room for > concealed areas. (That is an area Riddle would have felt most at > home in Hogwarts) > > 9) The tunnels leading to Hogsmede! The Mauanders and twins were the > only ones that knew of 3 of them. One was blocked off. > > Outside of Hogwarts:- > > 10) LV had giants working with him last time, and they can't > perceive magic so well. One of their colonies would be naturally > protected by the inhabitants. > > 11) I'd still like to see the Dragon sanctuary where Charlie works. LV > thought anything he was scared of may keep others away as well > (hence, the Inferi in HBP horcrux location) > Now Phil 12) Aragog's domed web Acromantula were grown to guard wizard dwellings or treasure. Tom Riddle could have commanded snakes to follow Aragog and they could have placed a Horcrux in his web. 13) Griffin Den griffins are often employed by wizards to guard treasure. Though griffins are fierce, a handful of skilled wizards have been known to befriend one. Griffins feed on raw meat. Phil. From elfundeb at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 01:21:20 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:21:20 -0000 Subject: Merope's Death (WAS:: Tom Riddle - placed in danger as a child? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137753 Jen Reese wrote: > But this scene points out something that bothered me a little bit > when Dumbledore and Harry talk about Merope's death. Dumbledore > says: "Merope refused to raise her wand even to save her own life" > and Harry responds: "She wouldn't even stay alive for her own son?" > (Chap. 13, p. 262, US). > > We know magic can't keep someone from dying, so what did they mean > exactly? It was very vague why she died, and in fact sounded more > like a broken heart than a physical problem! But I guess maybe DD is > saying that if something happened at the delivery, say Merope was > losing a lot of blood, she could have used magic to intervene and > instead chose not to? And Harry's comment sounds almost like the boy > Tom Riddle--"she wouldn't stay alive for her son?" like she could > have intervened with magic and stopped herself from dying. > Confusing. We've been debating Merope's death -- albeit in a knowledge vacuum -- for years. What I see in the story we've now been given, though, is *depression.* Dumbledore tells Harry in ch. 13 that "it is also possible that her unrequited love and the attendant despair sapped her of her powers." Not to mention her own family's utter rejection of her; however abusive they may have been, they were her family and their rejection of her may still have hurt. Her one attempt to use magic to better herself was a failure; she was alone and destitute, and perhaps she felt she had nothing to offer her child. She also had been wandering about in a bitter cold snowstorm and "staggered" up the steps. It's very possible she was already quite ill, and too depressed to do anything about it -- if in fact she knew the appropriate magic, what with her lovely upbringing. I like this explanation much better than that old sappy standby, the broken heart, and I think the evidence supports it. Debbie noting somewhat surprisingly that this is her first post-HBP post -- blame that vacation From swood at csu.edu.au Tue Aug 16 00:07:52 2005 From: swood at csu.edu.au (Wood, Susan) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:07:52 +1000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? Message-ID: <0C7AF4692D7A6143A72AD00E5681D7E50A0F73@ESWW02.CSUMain.csu.edu.au> No: HPFGUIDX 137754 Prep0strus wrote: "And I always think of Slugworth as well... Slughorn really is a gross name. It just doesn't seem slick enough a name for a networking Slytherin. But, then, he's not very slick really. I think Dumbledore's affection for him is strange. He's clearly a 'good' person, who doesn't go in for actual evil. But he's not a nice person, not a fair person, and not a person who stands for much that Dumbedore stands for - but then, neither does Snape. When will we see a TRULY good slytherin." I'm interested in your reading of Slughorn as 'clearly a 'good' person'. I agree that he is not nice and not fair, but I don't see what evidence there is that he is a good person. Who was he hiding from when DD and Harry visit him? Was it Voldemort and the Death-eaters - or was it Dumbledore? I rather thought that he was hiding just as much from Dumbledore as from the Death-eaters. It was only after Harry told him that he didn't have to join the order that he consented to return to Hogwarts. In other words, apparently he didn't want to take sides. Has he actively done anything to help the good side since being at Hogwarts? On the other hand we saw that he attempted to thwart Dumbledore by tampering with his memory. Also does anyone else think that it is significant that Slughorn seemed to recognise Slytherin's ring in the scene where DD and Harry visit him at the start of the book? How and why would he know anything about that ring, since it was supposedly hidden in the ruin of the Gaunt house for all those years? That makes me very suspicious of him. OTOH, I think we will see a Slytherin (or several) standing on the good side at the end because the sorting hat has repeatedly told us that the houses have to stand united. Sue W From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 16 01:22:55 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050816012255.42237.qmail@web53305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137755 johnbowman19 wrote: How can he not be truly dead you ask? I would argue that DD had made a Horcrux. Luckdragon: I thought so too, and posted the same idea right after the book came out. It was very quickly brought to my attention that it would not be in DD's nature to kill, nor would he likely perform such dark magic. I still can't bring myself to believe he is truly gone. He knew so much there has to be a way he could have arranged to come back and I still feel Fawkes would be involved in some way. Only time will tell...2 years..groan! --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 16 01:48:28 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:48:28 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137756 > Saraquel: [..] > *However*, my instinctive feeling is that DD is not the sort of > person who would demand that. Somehow, I think DD wants people to > make FREE choices, and a UV could be seen as a form of compulsion - > Ok Severus, I'll believe you have repented when you take a UV. The > faith here is in the power of the UV, rather than Severus. I think > DD is more along the lines of: I'll have the faith in you that you > have repented and in doing so will empower you to continue in this > decision, knowing that if you lapse, you forsake the real power > which my faith in you gave to you, and the chance to regain that > most important of characteristics, self respect. > > It's often said on the list that Snape wants RESPECT and > recognition. The reason he still wants it IMO is because he has no > self respect. > > Saraquel houyhnhnm: There's a lot of projection in Snape's misanthropy. His hostility to Hermione, for instance (besides the fact she's Harry's friend). An outsider, an overachiever desperate for recognition, trying to get it all out of books before even coming to Hogwarts? That sounds like Snape. The most character revealing scene, IMO, is during the first occlumency lesson. "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord," said Snape savagely. "Fools that wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily--weak people, in other words--they stand no chance against his powers!" Clearly, he is speaking of himself, with a passion and an honesty we don't see anywhere else. This speech is the strongest evidence for me that Snape has not been a Death Eater all along, that he really turned against Voldemort. There is too much self-loathing in his words for the weaknesses that made him easy prey for the Dark Lord. Weaknesses which he has ruthlessly stamped out in himself (except for the couple of times when he loses it), and which he sees it as his duty to stamp out in others, Harry and Tonks, for instance. Your imagining of what Dumbledore had to offer Snape by contrast, completes the picture. The thing that makes Snape a tragic figure is that while he *may* appreciate the superior good that Dumbledore has to offer, he cannot evolve toward it. He is bound by his past actions, trapped in the role of spy, an excruciating study in the workings of karma. From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Aug 16 01:57:12 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:57:12 -0000 Subject: Fawkes the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: > How can he not be truly dead you ask? I would argue that DD had > made a Horcrux. [deletia] > Horcruxes? I think the reason why he knows about Horcruxes is > because he made one. We know of one possible killing that DD did, > and that was his defeat of Grindelwald. He defeated Grindelwald at > the age of 105 (according to the lexicon) and certainly 105 years > is enough time to learn about horcruxes before he beat Grindelwald. First, we don't know that he actually killed Grindelwald. Second, horcruxes are made from murders. Killings during wartime by soldiers are not considered murder (in the sense they are not ipso facto crimes as they are in the civilian world). So even if Dumbledore did kill Grindelwald, as it was as part of a war, it would not be considered evil. This leaves aside other points: Dumbledore would never murder as it is not in his character, and if he is an expert on Horcruxes, then why didn't he give Harry more pointers on how to identify items which have had that spell placed upon them--DD can read the invisible signs of magic after all, and if were a spell he knew how to do, I can't imagine that he would not have made telling Harry how to recognize that particular invisible sign a priority. jujube From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 02:02:28 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:02:28 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137759 Uk Ed COS p245 "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure " "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said thunderstruck. "It certainly seems so." UK Ed HBP p473 "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed." IMO Dumbledore knows more than me about Voldemort's Horcruxes, and as far as I'm concerned, if DD says it failed, it failed. I really, really, really don't think Harry is one. However, he definitely has some of Voldemort's powers in him and therein lies the mystery of GH. I was trying to find a quote from one of JKR's interviews where she says that Lily did not cast a spell at GH when she died, all she did was stand in front of Harry, but something about the way she did it was unique. Unfortunately I couldn't find it, maybe someone can point us in the right direction, I think it was one of the interviews after HBP. Hence, I don't think it was anything Lily did. It was something that happened when Voldemort did whatever he did and I think it is linked to the scar on Harry's forehead which I think marked Harry as his equal (I've got a potion brewing on that one and may post something in the next couple of days). vmonte: I need help with understanding something. Voldemort cannot be killed because he's got his horcruxes spread all over town, right? So, at GH he is killed and becomes Vapormort (his body was either blown to bits or was one of the remains found at the scene. Who knows maybe the hand-of-glory was created from one of his hands-HAHA). In this vapor-like condition, LV can continue living in other animals or people, but he doesn't go into Harry, he floats away. Somebody else was at GH that night. Did they perform a quick but botched horcrux ritual? Perhaps they tried to keep their master alive? So, what exactly happened to Harry then? Why does he have some of Voldemort's powers? Something must have entered him via the scar? Did whatever Lily do split this vapor essence in half? so that part of LV floated away and another part entered Harry? I don't really know, but something is in Harry. And it speaks parceltongue. Vivian :) From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 02:09:02 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050816020902.48652.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137760 johnbowman19 wrote: So I asked myself how would DD know about Horcruxes? I think the reason why he knows about Horcruxes is because he made one. We know of one possible killing that DD did, and that was his defeat of Grindelwald. This leads to question what would be his Horcrux? Fawkes. Juli now: First, As always, where's the canon to it? Second, Dumbledore fears not death ("It is but the next journey") Third, He does not practice "Dark Magic" (in PS/SS McGonagall says he's to noble to use that magic) Fourth, Dumbledore cherishes a whole soul (he tells Harry so in HBP) Fifth, Dumbledore would never murder anyone (he didn't even try to kill LV at the DoM), and we don't know how Grindewald was defeated. Sixth, Even if he had created an Horcrux, he would never use an animal (he tells Harry it's not a good idea for LV to use Nagini) I'm sorry but your theory doesn't seem likely, at least not to me ;) Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 16 02:31:21 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050816023122.70170.qmail@web53310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137761 : saraquel wrote: . I was trying to find a quote from one of JKR's interviews where she says that Lily did not cast a spell at GH when she died, all she did was stand in front of Harry, but something about the way she did it was unique. Unfortunately I couldn't find it, maybe someone can point us in the right direction, I think it was one of the interviews after HBP. Hence, I don't think it was anything Lily did. It was something that happened when Voldemort did whatever he did and I think it is linked to the scar on Harry's forehead which I think marked Harry as his equal (I've got a potion brewing on that one and may post something in the next couple of days). vmonte: Did whatever Lily do split this vapor essence in half? so that part of LV floated away and another part entered Harry? Luckdragon: I think this is the quote you are looking for: MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry? JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen It would appear that Lily did not use her powers as a witch to save Harry, it was her motherly instinct. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 16 02:35:46 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:35:46 -0000 Subject: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137762 > > Jen: Why did Merope die? I asked this question already today in > > another post, but will give it another go here :-). > Ceridwen: > I got the impression she was undernourished, and refused to lift a > wand from the time TRsr. left her to the time she died. She had > to pawn a valuable locket and was swindled for it, in order to > keep alive long enough to have her child. She probably weakened > herself all through the pregnancy, resulting in her death at the > end. She wouldn't use magic, not to eat, to find suitable > accomodations, or to get medical assistance of some form or > another. Jen: Thank you, Ceridwen, for a really thoughtful answer. Merope's death makes sense to me now, and as I re-read the passage in The Secret Riddle, I noticed a quote by Harry: "But she could do magic!" said Harry impatiently. "She could have got food and everything for herself by magic, couldn't she?" (p. 262, US) That comes right before the comments I was worried about on the nature of what magic can and can't do regarding death, and it fits with your thoughts. Ceridwen: > Maybe she didn't think she deserved it, either because she thought > her father was right in the end, she was just a nothing, a nearly- > Squib; or because she felt so much guilt over ruining her own > life, TRsr.'s life, and their child's life through her attempts at > magic. Maybe she was too proud to return to her abusive home, > would rather die than seek out family help. Jen: All of the above, I would imagine. I was being a little sarcastic about Merope dying of heartbreak, but Slughorn mentions that Amortentia is probably the most 'dangerous and powerful potion in the room' because you 'can't underestimate the power of obsessive love.' I know Merope didn't take Amortentia herself, but her love for Riddle Sr. definitely fell in the category of obsessive. Losing him was the beginning of the end, and must have made her feel that magic wasn't worth the pain it caused her and everyone around her. Merope is a very tragic figure in the story. Dumbledore touches on how unlike Lily she was, in regards to her courage, and how that affected the choices she made. But I definitely found myself wondering if that's the entire answer for Merope and baby Tom. How do you overcome getting *nothing* in your nature OR your nuture? Harry's life was very different from Tom's in that sense, regardless of the Durselys. Harry started with something, at least. Jen: > > But Dumbledore is the one who taught him about finding the ones > > we love inside ourselves when we truly need them. So far Harry > > has brought forth his mother's love when Quirrell couldn't touch > > him, and his father's love when he casts his Patronus that night > > on the lake. I hope to see Dumbledore's love express itself in > > some literal way in Book 7. Ceridwen: > Now you've got me wondering. Could anything done to or for Harry > in particular, of a sacrificial nature, be added to his extra > store, as long as it was done with love for him? Or, by someone > loved by him? Will Dumbledore's meaning for Harry be > embodied in some way in book 7, as Lily's sacrifice was throughout > his life so far, and as James's was when he manifested as Harry's > Patronus? Who else's love and sacrifice will show up in greater > or lesser power? What exactly is bubbling around in Harry's > blood now, because of all of this, that will aid him in his quest? Jen: I'm pretty sure only Lily's sacrifice gives Harry the 'lingering protection that flows in {his} veins' (OOTP). JKR made it clear in the post-HBP interviews it was Lily's choice to step aside which led to the unique situation of Harry surviving the AK and having the protection in his blood. That doesn't mean Harry can't find magical help from the people he's loved along the way! I'd like to think it would come from the adults in his life who have died before him, rather than his friends who will actually be with him in the end. Like the skin Quirrell can't touch from Lily, and the patronus from James, I hope we see something manifest itself that represents Sirius, as well as Dumbledore. Those are the adults Harry mentioned who have 'stood in front of him one by one' and it seems fitting none gave their lives in vain. Each one made a huge contribution to who Harry has become and what he has to do in the end. I also wonder about Harry's remarkable skill for summoning help when he desperately needs it. Is that skill also rooted in Lily's sacrifice, even if it's not part of his blood protection? Maybe that one is pure Harry :). Jen From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 16 02:54:37 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:54:37 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: <0C7AF4692D7A6143A72AD00E5681D7E50A0F73@ESWW02.CSUMain.csu.edu.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wood, Susan" wrote: > Prep0strus wrote: > > "And I always think of Slugworth as well... Slughorn really is a gross > name. It just doesn't seem slick enough a name for a networking > Slytherin. But, then, he's not very slick really. I think > Dumbledore's affection for him is strange. He's clearly a 'good' > person, who doesn't go in for actual evil. But he's not a nice > person, not a fair person, and not a person who stands for much that > Dumbedore stands for - but then, neither does Snape. When will we > see a TRULY good slytherin." houyhnhnm: It is now canon that each house is associated with a different element. JKR: Probably. I hear you. It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and balance, that you had four necessary components and by integrating them you would make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, as we know. If Slytherin is water, then maybe there is a clue in the natures of the water signs. Cancer can give a love of the old, a clinging to the past. We see this trait expressed in a perverted way in the pedigree worship and pure-blood ideology of LVs supporters. But is there a good way this trait could be expressed. Scorpio is supposed to be expressed on three levels--the scorpion, the eagle, and the dove. The scorpion uses people selfishly and destructively. The eagle makes use of other people's resources but does so in a way that benefits everyone including himself. I think Slughorn is a good example. The dove is a healer and metaphysician who can drain negative energy from others and repolarize it, sort of a n anti-dementor. We haven't seen one of these. I'm not sure where Pisces fits in. I see the Slytherin principle as being about imposing the will. Then maybe there would be no magic in the first place without it, at least not as an organized body of knowledge. There would be individuals with magical power, but it would be unfocuses and uncontrolled. Sue. W. > I'm interested in your reading of Slughorn as > 'clearly a 'good' person'. I agree that he is not nice and not >fair, but I don't see what evidence there is that he is a good >person. houyhnhnm: I think he's meant to be seen as having a passive kind of goodness. He doesn't wish anyone harm. He is genuinely appalled by the conversation with Riddle. He has a better nature that can be appealed to, though it takes bribes and alcohol to bring it out. He's selfish but he tries to see to it that the others get something out of the deal. It's not my idea of *good*. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 03:10:37 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:10:37 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: <0C7AF4692D7A6143A72AD00E5681D7E50A0F73@ESWW02.CSUMain.csu.edu.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137764 Sue W. Who was he hiding from when DD and Harry visit him? Was it Voldemort and the Death-eaters - or was it Dumbledore? I rather thought that he was hiding just as much from Dumbledore as from the Death-eaters. It was only after Harry told him that he didn't have to join the order that he consented to return to Hogwarts. In other words, apparently he didn't want to take sides. Marianne S. : I think he was mostly hiding from the Death Eaters because he did not at all seem surprised that Dumbledore was able to find him. Perhaps he was making a half-hearted attempt to hide from Dumbledore, but I think he would have put more effort into hiding if Death Eaters had arrived. SueW: Has he actively done anything to help the good side since being at Hogwarts? On the other hand we saw that he attempted to thwart Dumbledore by tampering with his memory. Well, let's see... I don't think he's a major enough character to require that he does something actively to help the good side, yet I do believe that Dumbledore wanted him (and JKR wrote him in) for the good things he could do passively. Some of these things include: a) Seeing mostly Lily in Harry, rather than mostly (or even entirely like Snape does) James b) While he clearly recognized some Slug Club members for their connections (McClaggen, Zabini), he also recognized people like Ginny and Hermione for their tallents. c) By being an "old school" and, more importantly, old text teacher, Slughorn gave Harry the chance to actually LEARN from Snape, which Harry probably would have done in years 1-5 if Snape hadn't browbeaten Harry so much. d) Harry is also forced to learn from Snape in DADA, where he wouldn't have had Snape at all if he were still teaching Potions. Harry needs Potions to be an Auror, and he needed to learn the things that Snape couldn't teach him due to prejudice. e) We see that a Slytherin, who is surely there by his ambition, is not necessarily evil as he can accept muggle born / half blood / and even so-called "blood- traitor" students (that have potential in his eyes, at least). Slughorn probably knew that Snape was a half blood and I am sure he knew of Lily's muggle parentage. This leads me to believe that we will see some Good Slytherins. I suspect Blaise, for one, though I can't remember why. f) We obviously get a way to find out what Tom Riddle was told about Horcruxes and even, less obviously, a way to help Hagrid grieve the loss of Aragog. I don't think Hagrid cared that Slughorn was mourning with him for selfish reasons... he was happy for the companionship and eloquent words, and Slughorn played his part very well. Sue W: Also does anyone else think that it is significant that Slughorn seemed to recognise Slytherin's ring in the scene where DD and Harry visit him at the start of the book? How and why would he know anything about that ring, since it was supposedly hidden in the ruin of the Gaunt house for all those years? Marianne S: In the pensieve scene where Tom Riddle is asking Slughorn about Horcruxes, doesn't he already have the ring on his hand? I think even Harry noticed it in the scene. I interpreted that to mean Tom had the ring and had performed the murders, but just hadn't made it a horcrux yet. I further believe, based on Slughorn's words in the UNmodified memory, that a horcrux is an object created with a spell immediately after a murder. Since Voldemort needed to use a spell to create a horcrux, I think that is yet another proof that Harry and/or his Scar cannot be one. So, I think Slughorn's self serving ambition makes him not "clearly good" but "clearly harmless and perhaps even useful", even if he doesn't directly realize it. After all, the one thing helpful he did do directly, which was giving that unmodified memory, Harry seems to know that Slughorn won't remember it afterwards. Marianne S From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 03:23:57 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:23:57 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137765 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" > > houyhnhnm: > > There's a lot of projection in Snape's misanthropy. His hostility to > Hermione, for instance (besides the fact she's Harry's friend). An > outsider, an overachiever desperate for recognition, trying to get it > all out of books before even coming to Hogwarts? That sounds like Snape. > > The most character revealing scene, IMO, is during the first > occlumency lesson. > > "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord," said Snape > savagely. "Fools that wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who > cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow > themselves to be provoked this easily--weak people, in other > words--they stand no chance against his powers!" > > Clearly, he is speaking of himself, with a passion and an honesty we > don't see anywhere else. > > This speech is the strongest evidence for me that Snape has not been a > Death Eater all along, that he really turned against Voldemort. There > is too much self-loathing in his words for the weaknesses that made > him easy prey for the Dark Lord. Weaknesses which he has ruthlessly > stamped out in himself (except for the couple of times when he loses > it), and which he sees it as his duty to stamp out in others, Harry > and Tonks, for instance. > > Your imagining of what Dumbledore had to offer Snape by contrast, > completes the picture. The thing that makes Snape a tragic figure is > that while he *may* appreciate the superior good that Dumbledore has > to offer, he cannot evolve toward it. He is bound by his past > actions, trapped in the role of spy, an excruciating study in the > workings of karma. Snape is the most complex character JKR writes, and attempts to box him into evil or good will come up impotent, for JKR has made sure both sides have been fully represented. That is why Snape taking the Unbreakable Vow is so very important. That very action--thwarting the Dark Lord's plan for Draco--is not speculation. It is absolute evidence that Snape fully disregarded orders twice...once, in speaking about "the Plan" (whether he truly knew about it or not) and two, taking a vow that protected Draco. There will be no excuses for Voldemort--Snape KNOWS this--from the speech he gave from the heart to Harry, he knows that he cannot stand before Voldemort and plead a mother's tears. Snape did not need to prove anything to either one of the sisters...both who were on the outs with Voldemort. Bella also became the bonder for the vow, also disregarding Voldemort's wishes. There is no question that Bella is a bona fide DE but blood is thicker than water. I believe Snape is a horribly conflicted wizard, dislusioned by the MOM, Dumbledore's forgiveness to those who tried to kill him as a teenager and fully grasps Voldemort's psychopathic lack of conscience. After six books, the most honest thing that can be said about Snape is that he is agnostic in regard to what is true good and true evil. The line is blurred for him. I agree with the other poster, why let Katie Bell live? Why save DD from the effects of the ring horcrux? Why not just say, "whooops, a little too much hair of the dawg there DD, night night big fella." Perhaps it was Snape thinking on top of the tower "it's either him or me" (I even wonder if Snape would be dead if he had left DD to die a death from the potion since Draco had already raised his wand to DD intent to kill but failed) To me, that still doesn't rise to the level of what Bella did to Sirius. Not the same at all. Cindy (who still wonders why all the references to drinking adult beverages in HBP...don't drink and disapparate? Friends don't let friends drink old professor's mead?) From kjones at telus.net Tue Aug 16 03:46:54 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:46:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430161AE.2090505@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137766 vmonte wrote: > Uk Ed COS p245 > "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to > you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to > do, I'm sure " > "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said thunderstruck. > "It certainly seems so." vmonte Kathy writes: I hate it when Dumbledore says "it certainly seems so." That's exactly what he said when McGonagal asked him if Voldemort was really gone. It means that Dumbledore is not telling the whole story. I take it to mean that "yes, it looks like he transferred some of his powers to you, but I'm thinking it was part of his soul, but I'm not really sure yet, I'll let you know." Even Snape starts doing it in Ootp. When Harry asked if Voldemort knew he was there inside the snake, Snape replies,"It seems so." KJ > UK Ed HBP p473 > "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your > death. As we know, he failed." vmonte Kathy writes: I take this to be more Dumbledore double talk. Voldemort failed to make his final horcrux as a result of Harry's death. Voldemort failed to kill him. To me, this doesn't mean that a piece of Voldemort's soul did not end up in Harry. It might not be an actual horcrux, but a difference which makes no difference, is no difference. It has to be removed, hopefully, or else..."neither can live while the other survives" KJ > IMO Dumbledore knows more than me about Voldemort's Horcruxes, and > as far as I'm concerned, if DD says it failed, it failed. I really, > really, really don't think Harry is one. However, he definitely has > some of Voldemort's powers in him and therein lies the mystery of > GH. I was trying to find a quote from one of JKR's interviews where > she says that Lily did not cast a spell at GH when she died, all she > did was stand in front of Harry, but something about the way she did > it was unique. Unfortunately I couldn't find it, maybe someone can > point us in the right direction, I think it was one of the > interviews after HBP. Hence, I don't think it was anything Lily did. > It was something that happened when Voldemort did whatever he did > and I think it is linked to the scar on Harry's forehead which I > think marked Harry as his equal (I've got a potion brewing on that > one and may post something in the next couple of days). vmonte Kathy writes: From my understanding of the interview, it was her making the choice to protect Harry. Voldemort told her to stand aside. He did not intend to kill her for some reason. She refused the chance to live and remained in front of Harry. JKR said that James also gave his life for Harry but that there was no choice involved. He just bunged into the middle of it and was given no choice. KJ > I don't really know, but something is in Harry. And it speaks > parceltongue. > Vivian :) Kathy writes: It also caused Dumbledore's little silver machine to spit out one snake which then split into two separate parts. That did not look good to me. Dumbledore checked to make sure that they were still separate. It looks even worse that Salazar spoke parceltongue, all the Gaunts spoke it, direct line down is Voldemort, who speaks it, and then there is Harry. What really bothers me is that Dumbledore offers to hide Draco, make him and his mother look as if they have been killed and put them in a safe place where they would not be found. Why could Dumbledore not have done that for Harry? We know that the prophesy is only true because Voldemort makes it true. If he had thought that Harry died in the house at GH, he would not have continued after Harry. Would he?? KJ From leslie41 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 06:28:52 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:28:52 -0000 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? In-Reply-To: <00a801c5a1e5$439925a0$bb3a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137767 I think that in terms of canon, those who believe in ESE!Snape really have the upper hand, in many ways. Snape. Kills. Dumbledore. All the major characters by the end of the book think Snape is evil. And the interviews Rowling has given indicate very clearly that she thinks anyone who believes that Snape isn't evil is holding onto some illogical hope. Something else that isn't mentioned here often enough here is that whatever impressions we have about the characters need to be filtered through the fact that these are books for children. We are adults, and we read the books as adults, but my guess is that children on the whole truly loathe Snape, and would have quite a difficult time in the end accepting him as anything but loathesome. They feel the same way about him that Harry does, I would think. There's subtle canonical evidence to support that Snape isn't evil, or at least that it isn't as simply as that, anyway. This evidence, however, has to be teased out and explicated (some would say rationalized) at great length. And from what I've seen there's a lot of spurious and extremely far-reaching and completely illogical theories about anything and everything concerning Snape. It's not that the ESE!Snape folks are lacking in sophistication, necessarily, or that they don't support their views with canon. I think, truthfully, that many people like and admire Snape in many ways, and identify with him. That colors a lot of what people think. I want to admire Snape, and I think there is enough evidence in the books to support admiring him. But in the end, I don't like the idea that Snape is evil, because I don't really like the message it sends. Think about it. Snape is ugly, poor, unpleasant both physicially and personally. He's that outsider in high school, the "greasy" guy with oily hair that everyone edges away from, loathed in school by all the cool kids and tormented by them as well. He grows into an equally greasy man with yellow teeth who spits when he gets angry. and is just a repulsive person overall, it seems. How sad if he turns out to be truly evil, because then the message that's sent--to kids especially--is that the poor, ugly unpleasant person is bad, and in league with all the bad people out there. Ugly and poor physically equals ugly and poor morally. That, for me, would be sad. How much more thought-provoking would it be for Rowling to present children with this foul person, hated by the main character (a very attractive boy, by the way) who turns out to be good after all? Who is capable of change? Whose looks do not at all reflect his morality? If Snape is in the end good underneath all that grease and spit, it would be a wonderful thing indeed. Because it would illustrate the difference between generic "niceness" and prettiness, and true virtue. The beautiful, wealthy and "nice" people are not necessarily good, no matter how much we would like to believe they are. It's a complicated difference that children especially need to be attuned to. Sometimes it's that seemingly unpleasant old lady in the unkempt house who turns out to be the soul of charity and decency, and it's the upstanding, handsome, friendly fellow who lives in the best neighborhood in town that turns out to be the child molester. In fact, in my experience, that is often the case. I have plenty of canonical reasons why I think Snape isn't evil. But this is the real reason behind why I don't *want* him to be. Leslie41 From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Tue Aug 16 06:47:00 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (Jason in Alaska) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:47:00 -0800 Subject: Voldy's Blunder (was: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment) In-Reply-To: <1124132795.12375.32595.m9@yahoogroups.com> References: <1124132795.12375.32595.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137769 Jen: > We think, or at least I do, that Voldemort taking Harry's blood > weakened him rather than gave him the added power he was hoping for. Jason: I agree with you Jen. I'd go further to say that Voldemort also made the mistake of taking "the flesh of a servant freely given" from a man that owes his life to Harry Potter. I wonder whether this too will play a part in Voldemort's down fall..."Wormtail, did you neglect to tell me that you owe your worthless, pathetic life to Harry Potter? Crucio!"...dunno, does that bond transfer with the flesh? We shall see in book 7 I guess.... Jason From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Aug 16 06:54:01 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:54:01 -0000 Subject: Fawkes the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" wrote: John: > This leads to question what would be his Horcrux? Fawkes. > Fawkes is extremely loyal to DD and is well controlled by DD just as > Nagini is well controlled by Voldemort. Fawkes would be the perfect > Horcrux because he could not be destroyed (save his natural death). > Even Avada Kedavra could not kill Fawkes (he swallowed Voldemort's in > the battle at the Ministry). Geoff: That does raise the question, can a Horcrux survive a Phoenix's reincarnation? Dumbledore remarks: "Fawkes is a Phoenix, Harry. Phoenixes burst into flame when it time to die and are reborn from the ashes. Watch him..." (COS "The Polyjuice Potion" p.155 UK edition) They die - then reincarnate. We know that this happens at least twice to our knowledge - in COS and OOTP in the battle at the Ministry. So, in general terms, if a person or another creature is a Horcrux, what happens if they die? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 07:13:00 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:13:00 -0000 Subject: The magically refilling Pensieve (Was: Why would RAB put poison back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137771 bboyminn wrote: > > That's how wizards protect things, with traps, puzzles, magical > creatures, and enchantments. All of which are difficult and deadly, > but to one who is wise enough and patient enough, they can all be > by-passed. It's a challenge; who is smarter, the enchanter or the seeker? > > The protection on the Horcrux Locket is in the same vein. Most wizards would never get past the initial 'doorway' because they would never figure out how to open it with a sacrific of their own blood. So they would either stand there forever, or get bored and go away. Each new stage of protection, the boat, the interferi, the 'birdbath' > containing the Locket, is a challenge of wits, skill, knowledge, > power, and wisdom. > > Note that the 'birdbath' potion was likely poison, so even if you win, you lose, unless you can get yourself to some competent help very very quickly. > > So, I agree, the potion refilled itself making the challenge and the > protections ready and waiting for the next wizard to come. Again, > remember that these protections must guard the object for centuries. Carol responds: I agree with your logic here, but surely it's neither a bucket nor a birdbath. It's what we all thought it was when we first saw the American cover of HBP, a cracked and ancient Pensieve. And the evil Legilimens Voldemort has filled it with poisoned thoughts or memories that create both physical agony and mental anguish. I don't have time to check, but isn't the consistency of the potion neither gas nor liquid but somewhere in between, much like the silvery thoughts in Dumbledore's Pensieve but tinged with green like the light from an AK? Whoever R.A.B. is, and especially if he's the young Death Eater Regulus Black, he would not have been able to recreate such a Dark and complicated potion. I'm quite sure that it magically refills itself for much the same reasons that you've given. I do commend R.A.B. on his foresight, though. I'm betting that he wrote the note and put it in the fake Horcrux before he even entered the cave. My question is, how did he know where--or what--the Horcrux was? Carol From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 07:29:32 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:29:32 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: <430161AE.2090505@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137772 > > > UK Ed HBP p473 > > "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your > > death. As we know, he failed." > vmonte > > Kathy writes: > I take this to be more Dumbledore double talk. Voldemort failed to > make his final horcrux as a result of Harry's death. Voldemort failed to > kill him. To me, this doesn't mean that a piece of Voldemort's soul did > not end up in Harry. It might not be an actual horcrux, but a difference > which makes no difference, is no difference. It has to be removed, > hopefully, or else..."neither can live while the other survives" Finwitch: Yes, it certainly is possible that Harry IS - or WAS - a horcrux. While Voldemort didn't succeed in killing him, I'd say that Voldemort has definately killed enough to make several. Actually -- that may be why Voldemort was so insistent on having *Harry's* blood - why Harry has some of Voldemort's powers... You see -- that was Harry's childhood 'friend', Tom Riddle. (that deja vu)... an invisible friend, too. Of course, Dursleys being Dursleys, Harry suppressed that early on, believing it was just 'imagining'. You know how Harry dismisses/suppresses this or that piece of information by telling himself he was 'imagining' it? He even tells Sirius 'I just imagined my scar hurt' but Sirius doesn't buy it... because Harry does NOT imagine things. So yes, I'd say that, a piece of Voldemort's soul was within Harry, and it communicated with Harry's soul... However, when Voldemort seemingly 'attempted to possess' Harry, maybe he that piece of his soul joined the rest of him? That rather than that Occlumency/Legilimency-business, Harry could see Voldemort's plans in his dreams because of that piece of soul. As he no longer has it, he can't. What I want to know, is whether there's seven Horcruxes, as Harry figured, or six as Dumbledore told him? Finwitch From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 16 10:53:51 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:53:51 -0400 Subject: It's over... Message-ID: <00ad01c5a250$ca234680$b2c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137773 Eggplant >but before HBP JKR could > perhaps morphed him into a good guy, or at least into a less > despicable character; but now JKR has burned her bridges as far as > Snape is concerned. After what we saw in HBP if she tries to turn > Snape into a good guy the last book in the Potter series will be a > disaster because killing Dumbledore is quite simply unforgivable. CathyD: I think this will be my last argument on this. (Ok, ok, I can hear the cheering from here!) JMO. JKR doesn't have to *turn Snape into a good guy*. JKR made it clear that Snape made a conscious choice to leave the Death Eaters and join Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix years ago before Voldemort fell. While Snape is clearly not a nice person, (I think colebiancardi said yesterday *sadistic bastard*), he has put his DE role behind him and is now wearing a white hat. He is, while not a good person, working for the good guys. Snape has already been redeemed therefore, and doesn't need another redemption, but only to be seen, by Harry and the Order, for what he truly is: A bad guy working for the good guys, loyal to Dumbledore and the Order. When that revelation comes in book 7, it won't make Snape the hero over Harry. He might be a momentary hero, as he was when we found out he was actually trying to save Harry from the bucking broom; when he gave fake Veritaserum to Umbridge, when he saved Draco's life after the Sectumsempra spell, but he won't be *THE* hero. *THE* hero is Harry. As to whether or not Snape *really* killed Dumbledore that is open for much interpretation. Certainly Harry believes it, and his testimony convinced those present when he told the story. But they are (or were when we last saw them) still in the first throes their grief. Harry will come to realize, though Hermione's help, or Moody's help, that what he saw wasn't a true AK (as many of us have already suspected), and he, or they, will try to work out what really happened on that tower, while Harry was being "short-sighted" by his invisibility and overcome by grief and anger. As I've said before a Pensive would be quite handy in this situation to check for links and patterns. It would also be a possible good use for Time-Travel. I think Snape's part in the final book will be quite limited. There is no Dumbledore to *spy* on so LV will set him a different task. He will have to reveal himself to the Order in some fashion and somehow prove to them that he is on their side and always has been (Hopefully, Dumbledore will do that for him, by leaving a bottled memory in his Gringotts vault). He will perform some small *heroic* act (curing Bill, saving Draco, saving any one member of the Order), and then he will die. And some of us will be just as sad at his death as we were when Sirius and Dumbledore died. >From the time I read GoF until I finished reading HPB, I believed, and argued strongly, that Snape was a double agent working for himself. Looking back, I think it was the easiest route *for me*, because I simply couldn't make a decision which way Snape swung so I sat on the fence. Since reading HBP (four times) I am absolutely convinced that Snape is, as I described him above, a bad guy working for the good guys. *It is our choices, Harry, show what we truly are, far more than our abilites.* Snape is an able Dark Wizard, and I think he would be quite a match for, maybe worse than LV, except that he made the *choice* to serve the good side. For Snape to turn out anything other than on the side of the Order, makes Dumbledore a complete and utter fool. And while I think (and he says) he was mistaken about many things I am quite certain that he was no fool. Nobody has to agree with my opinion. It is mine after all. I'm not asking anyone to believe as I do. My opinion is, however, as valid as anyone else's. It took me five years to get here, lots of thinking and reading and pondering and scribbling of notes, re-reading JKR's interview answers about Snape, more reading, more scribbling. I am as convinced of it as I am that the good guys will win in the end, that Dumbledore is indeed dead, and that there are going to be more deaths of important characters before JKR is finished. CathyD Who believes Voldemort is the Villan, Harry is the Hero and the rest are the supporting cast. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jajjmj at quixnet.net Tue Aug 16 02:45:10 2005 From: jajjmj at quixnet.net (Jo) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:45:10 -0000 Subject: Fawkes the Horcrux In-Reply-To: <20050816012255.42237.qmail@web53305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137774 > Luckdragon: > > I thought so too, and posted the same idea right after the book came out. It was very quickly brought to my attention that it would not be in DD's nature to kill, nor would he likely perform such dark magic. I still can't bring myself to believe he is truly gone. He knew so much there has to be a way he could have arranged to come back and I still feel Fawkes would be involved in some way. Only time will tell...2 years..groan! > > I have been wondering, if instead of a Horcrux, DD is like Fawkes and has Phoenix qualities. Just before the tomb appeared, it was surrounded by flames, like Fawkes on Burning Day. Jo From GourdSpirits at cs.com Tue Aug 16 04:34:11 2005 From: GourdSpirits at cs.com (tippie02) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 04:34:11 -0000 Subject: Harry on his own and 1-D Snape? (was Re: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: > That person will be in great danger, and Sirius was the type of > person who accepted that danger with no questions asked. Sure, it > took him 15 years or so, but JKR has promised we will understand > why he died. I'm thinking JKR *has* already indicated why Sirius *had* to die, and it's the same reason DD *had* to and why I'm finally forced to conclude (NO! Say it ain't so!!) that Snape is ESE!: As JKR said in the July 2005 LC/MN interview, "...in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that..." So as has been pointed out in numerous posts already, Harry has to do his job without help (either direct or indirect) from a mentor/protector. IMHO, of all the adult characters JKR has so far introduced, Sirius, DD and Snape were the only ones really qualified to be a significant resource to Harry -- Sirius because he represented family/parental support, DD because he was...well, DD, and Snape because of his DA knowledge and access to LV -- therefore, the three of them must become inaccessible to Harry. Through death and defection, the stage is now set for him to go on alone as we know he must, drawing on only his own resources in whatever form they take. Now, regarding Snape, I realize there's still room to argue that he doesn't really have to be bad in order to be inaccessible to Harry as long as Harry believes the worst of him and therefore won't trust or (knowingly) accept help from him. I would be willing to argue that myself, incurable romantic and bad-boy lover that I am, except that the number of comments (more "anvil-sized" hints?) from JKR in interviews cautioning against thinking too well of or being too sympathetic toward Snape have piled up to the point where it's really looking (to me, anyway) like she's not being devious or evasive, but actually very straightforward about Snape, and that it's obvious to anyone who can accept the reality of ESE!Snape. Of course, that's what's so curious, why it's so hard for many of us to accept that Snape has been bad all along. But of all the various reasons I've read in the postings regarding this issue, I was most intrigued by the posters who have indicated how disappointed they would be if it turned out Snape had been bad all along, going from the most complicated, interesting character to a one-dimensional villain, taking a lot of the intrigue and tension out of the storyline. I thought that was a very good point storywise and that it would be almost anti-climactic if JKR, master storyteller that I think she is, actually went that route. And why would she present DD as the archetypical character representing all-powerful Goodness, only to give him this fatal flaw, this stunning vulnerability related to trust, of all things? And while thinking about this, I found that my internal spotlight of interest shifted from Snape and his intentions to DD instead, wondering just who was DD, the man, that he could make such a colossal blunder. Up to now, DD has been pretty one-dimensional, as any good Goodness Personified character should be, although we got more glimpses of DD's personality in HBP than in the past, and he is very definitely human. JKR indicated in the LC/MN interview that we would be learning a lot more about DD in Book 7, and my sense was that that knowledge would be pivotal to the final resolution of the series. So perhaps the path the storyline will take will be that contrary to expectations, Snape will turn out to be rather one-dimensional after all, and that it's actually the usually one-dimensional Super Good Guy, DD, who's the most complicated and interesting character. That would certainly be a switch! Would it be enough to satisfy those of us yearning for Reformed!Snape? I don't know, but if anyone could do it, it would be JKR! Blue-eyed Lily From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 11:11:57 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:11:57 -0000 Subject: Neville and his Wand - and Lily's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137776 vmonte: Olivander disappears the day after he sells Neville his new unicorn core wand, right? What if Neville's wand is the brother wand of Lily's wand? And didn't Neville end up taking a Charms class this past year (a class that Minerva subtly steered him towards?). Olivander mentioned that Lily had a great wand for charm work in SS/PS. Vivian From dave100941 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 05:10:22 2005 From: dave100941 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greyback Message-ID: <20050816051022.2870.qmail@web60311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137777 Pedophiles and child molesters are often friendly, charming people who may work as priests, scoutmasters, and Little League coaches. They accomplish their evil deeds by seducing innocent children and seldom resort to violence. I view Greyback as a violent rapist who is infected with Aids or some other sexually transmitted disease. He reminds me of a recent Florida suspect who raped a little girl, and threw her away like garbage: He then put her into a barrel upside down and then filled the barrel with rocks. Amazingly, police found the girl still alive a couple of days later. Hopefully the suspect will be locked up forever with a cell mate like Greyback. Dave ADMIN Note: When responding to this message, please remember that if you are discussing pedophilia or the Florida example Dave cites, and not addressing Greyback specifically, the post should be sent to our sister list, HPFGU-OTChatter. Thanks! From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 10:38:16 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:38:16 -0000 Subject: The magically refilling Pensieve (Was: Why would RAB put poison back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137778 > Carol responds: > I agree with your logic here, but surely it's neither a bucket nor a > birdbath. It's what we all thought it was when we first saw the > American cover of HBP, a cracked and ancient Pensieve. And the evil > Legilimens Voldemort has filled it with poisoned thoughts or memories > that create both physical agony and mental anguish. I don't have time > to check, but isn't the consistency of the potion neither gas nor > liquid but somewhere in between, much like the silvery thoughts in > Dumbledore's Pensieve but tinged with green like the light from an AK? > > Whoever R.A.B. is, and especially if he's the young Death Eater > Regulus Black, he would not have been able to recreate such a Dark and > complicated potion. I'm quite sure that it magically refills itself > for much the same reasons that you've given. I do commend R.A.B. on > his foresight, though. I'm betting that he wrote the note and put it > in the fake Horcrux before he even entered the cave. My question is, > how did he know where--or what--the Horcrux was? What if RAB was placing the locket in the "horrid pensieve" on Voldemort's behalf? I do not think he entered and drank the potion, as Dumbledore himself said he would not have been able to do this on his own. One horcrux was placed with the death eater Malfoy. Could not another horcrux be given to another death eater with instructions for its hiding? Maybe even along with the basin, unless this was already waiting in the cave? It would not necessarily take very advanced magic to drop something into the basin. RAB then sucessfully pretends to have placed the locket according to instructions, but - if indeed he is Regulus Black - gets himself killed on Voldemort's orders when he freaks out over one of his next assignments? Or - maybe- the person who places the locket in the cave has to die as part of the magic? The real locket is already hidden at Grimauld Place, and as the fake one enters the potion, RAB is killed, thus ensuring its protection. - Maybe even along with several others to make up the oceanful of inferi... -Mimbeltonia From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Aug 16 11:30:09 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:30:09 -0000 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? In-Reply-To: <00a801c5a1e5$439925a0$bb3a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137779 I do believe that frustration at not being able to convince people that your POV is the right one had probably led to some of the comments. As a Snape believer, I have always enjoyed the debates with the Snape detractors. In fact, whilst they have yet to change my mind about Snape, they have forced me to reassess some of my theories - for example Snape-DD premeditated death plan (for more see below). And that is the great thing about these arguments - each side finds the logical flaws in the opposing argument. It is up to us all to then counter these. I will attempt to logically explain Sherry's many queries below, but these are only my opinion, and no more or less valid than anyone else's. > 1. Defenders claim that Snape's rage at being called coward is because he has just committed the noble brave act of murdering the one person in the world who trusted and believed in him. As a detractor, I ask, and i have asked several times, how is it brave to murder a weak and sick old man? 2. As for the Dumbledore was dying argument, again, there is no actual canon that says definitively Dumbledore is dying from the poison in the basin in the cave. 3. As for canon on the detractor side, several of us have said that from all we know of Dumbledore, over six books, we believe it is absolutely out of character for Dumbledore to ask anyone to commit murder. 4. Ok, the great Snape Dumbledore plan. Again, my interpretation of Canon doesn't see a plan that would end up in Dumbledore's murder by Snape. OK, I will try one answer to cover all of these. We know from canon that the first Horcrux might have killed DD if it hadn't been for Snape's intervention. Before DD & Harry had noticed the Dark mark, DD was insisting that Harry fetch Snape and not Madam Pomfrey. To me it is therefore logical, that the second curse may have been equally deadly, and needed Snape's quick intervention. There is certainly evidence that DD was getting progressively weaker (sliding down the wall) when talking to Draco. We do know that DD has a plan to deal with Voldemort, and I think we all agree that DD believes that Snape is integral to the plan. If DD is dying at the tower, then on Snape's arrival (if he is good Snape) there are 2 choices. No.1 Snape fights all the DE's which might then give him the chance to help DD, but he will be revealed as DD's man. No.2 What if DD conveys that he is dying, and is willing to sacrifice himself to keep Snape's secret. IMO, this is Euthanasia, not Murder. A subtle difference, but IMO, a perfectly plausible one. As a Snape believer, the problems that I cannot answer satisfactorily yet are; Why does Snape make the Unbreakable Vow? The detractors have nearly convinced me that a death plan is a bit far fetched, so why commit yourself to helping Draco? My only answer is that the first curse was going to kill DD anyway - but that then leads back to a death pact. The events at the end were too unpredicatble for me to totally believe that. 5. in OOTP, as has been pointed out by several detractors, Dumbledore admits he had a plan that went all wrong because he failed to inform Harry. So, please, explain to me,why, why, why, would Dumbledore not inform Harry this time around? I think the Snape believers, regard Snape as integral to the eventual downfall of Voldemort. He is the double agent. Even the Snape detractors must admit that if (a huge stress on the word if) Harry knows about this, there is a chance that VOldemort might find out too! > I don't know what the pleading is, For us Snape believers this a huge admittance. There is no explanation (that I have read) from Snape detractors that explains this. Yes our explanation requires you to believe that DD would allow Snape to kill him - but it is possible! I would like to finish by saying that it is still possible that I am wrong. Snape is a sadistic, unpleasant man - I still can't believe that he was upset when he didn't manage to kill Neville's toad with the shrinking solution. There are often times when he betrays a resentment? for DD. He is very excited about the prospect of Sirius' exposure to the Dementors. However, the big question for me is - Do you believe DD when he says that Voldemort's interpretation of the prophecy is the greatest regret of Snape's life. I do - and due to his hatred of James that has always led me to believe that Snape has some sort of connection with Lily. So for me, Snape in a nutshell... Unhappy childhood, bullied at school, unhappy as a DE. He also now seems committed to a plan that will help Harry Potter, of all people, to defeat Voldemort. His resentment for the way his life has turned out is huge, and he takes it out on everyone he can. But in the end, some connection with Lily is the reason Snape fights for good!! Brothergib From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 11:40:32 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:40:32 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137780 Finwitch: > You see -- that was Harry's childhood 'friend', Tom Riddle. (that > deja vu)... an invisible friend, too. Of course, Dursleys being > Dursleys, Harry suppressed that early on, believing it was > just 'imagining'. You know how Harry dismisses/suppresses this or > that piece of information by telling himself he was 'imagining' it? > He even tells Sirius 'I just imagined my scar hurt' but Sirius > doesn't buy it... because Harry does NOT imagine things. > > So yes, I'd say that, a piece of Voldemort's soul was within Harry, > and it communicated with Harry's soul... However, when Voldemort > seemingly 'attempted to possess' Harry, maybe he that piece of his > soul joined the rest of him? Valky: I really think you're on to something there Finwitch. I mean lets look at it, Tom Riddle, a name that was familiar to Harry, as though it was a childhood friend he'd forgotten, The Dursleys suppressing magical instinct out of Harry, Harry learning from the Dursleys to 'believe' that it wasn't real. That makes good sense. Here's why. Remember Tom's words about Ginny with the Diary. He said that she trusted in him, that he had been 'charming' while he listened to all her little secrets. Ginny said, and this is very interestingly like an anvil, that it was like having a secret friend in her pocket. So indeed if a piece of Toms soul had *tried* to take Harry over, and failed somewhere early in the game, then Harry *would* remember a 'Friend' named Tom Riddle, I think. Now some things would become clearer in this light, such as for instance, the reason that Dumbledore chose the horrible Dursley's for Harry's home rather than fke his death and hide him in the WW. It may have been necessary, it may have been that this danger to Harry that Dumbledore alone could percieve was not necessarily something from outsode the walls of 4 Privet Drive, but rather something that was within himself, something that could only be held at bay till Harry lived long enough to *have* a life of his own, the gift that Lily had died to give him. Now *that* is BANG for your buck, dontcha agree? An OMG moment when we realise that if DD hadn't left Harry at the Dursleys, If he hadn't invoked the powerful magic that Lily had created for hs protection James and Lily's lives would be lost to nothing, Tom could have *owned* Harry from infancy. I am beginning to actually hope more than ever that I have just spoiled book seven, what a twist that would make. Forget your Child Protection Services, what would Dumbleore be in for if he had *ignored* the possibility that Tom could possess Harry at any moment? And Oh the possibilities. Is this what Petunia knows? Does she know that a piece of Voldemort is inside Harry, Does Remember My Last mean, remember I told you that Voldemort would possess the boy if he wasn't protected remember I told you that your sisters own son could become your worst nightmare just outside your door if you threw him out. Is this why her face turned pale when Harry told her that Voldemort was back, did she for one terrifying moment think that she was *looking right at him*! And, wait... there's more... we have the Silver instruments. Another Wow! What that could mean! Was DD asking if the protection had failed and that Tom was taking Harry over? Naturally, breathing a sigh of relief when he found that Tom and Harry remained, "in essence divided". Later the OOtP members seem to know something we don't. Moody says, Voldemort might be possessing Harry. Apparently not sure absolutely that DD should rule it out altogether, yet. And now finally while I am on a roll, a new spin on DD's apparent peacefulness in Death. At the moment I am leaning towards a hypothesis that DD expected, and prepared for his own death to occur right before Harry's protection ran out, but that he *really* didn't want Severus Snape to be the one who did it. However in the end, both confronted with their choices realised that it there was no way out. DD was prepared to give his life for the children of Hogwarts,(possibly expecting Voldemort to show up and do it) and Snape had tragically and stupidly locked his own hand to the task. Now DD's face was entirely peaceful, unlike your average victim of the AK, so what was that all about? Is this not unlike the ingenuity we have seen in Hermione. Has perhaps Dumbledore taken a leaf from Lily's book and invoked a sacrificial protection for his charges? Maybe not as unusual, not the unique extension of protection that Lily was able to manage due to Voldemorts offer of choice. But perhaps a similar magic, just large enough to keep the Hogwarts premises safe. Not long after his death someone said, which was maybe more than it seemed, that noone had ever done as much for Hogwarts as Dumbledore. Perhaps his greatest gift to Hogwarts was indeed his last. > > That rather than that Occlumency/Legilimency-business, Harry could > see Voldemort's plans in his dreams because of that piece of soul. > As he no longer has it, he can't. > > What I want to know, is whether there's seven Horcruxes, as Harry > figured, or six as Dumbledore told him? > > Finwitch Valky: I think that there might be seven, but Voldemort certainly wouldn't want it that way. Eight is the number of Ouroboros 'The Snake Eating It's Tail', a very different magic to seven. From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Aug 16 11:47:43 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:47:43 -0000 Subject: Anothe Snape Question? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137781 OK, technically this involves the films, but I want to try and connect it in some way to canon! In PS/SS the film, Snape wishes Harry good luck before his first Quidditch match. This scene is not in the book, and I was wondering if anyone can remember anywhere in the books where Snape is civil to Harry in this manner? My reason for the query is to increase the possibility of a Snape/Lily connection. In the film and the book he humiliates him in the first potions class - although another interpretation is that he was testing him on potions to seen if he was more like his mother or father. The follow up scene in the film might suggest that he was feeling guilty about his swift judgement, but as I said, there is no evidence of this in the books! Brothergib From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 11:50:11 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:50:11 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: <0C7AF4692D7A6143A72AD00E5681D7E50A0F73@ESWW02.CSUMain.csu.edu.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137782 Sue W: > I agree that he is not nice and not fair, but I don't see what evidence > there is that he is a good person. -- > Also does anyone else think that it is significant that Slughorn seemed > to recognise Slytherin's ring in the scene where DD and Harry visit him > at the start of the book? How and why would he know anything about that > ring, since it was supposedly hidden in the ruin of the Gaunt house for > all those years? Finwitch: Well, I think he IS a good person. His game of favourites is very different from Snape's. For one thing, the fact that his little club has members from all houses. This in itself acts as a unifier of Hogwarts, whereas Snape's Slytherin/Malfoy/DE-favoritism was cracking it. How, if not for this little club, could a Gryffindor befriend - or at least learn to know - a Slytherin? Then you get these persons tell their housemates that - NO, that person in the Slug Club is not bad... what better way to get rid of house-rivalry and prejudice? Secondly, the members themselves have either good connections or great talent. By introducing talented Muggleborns like Lily and Hermione to the so-called purebloods with connections (to future employers) he helps them to get excellent jobs. One does need both talent and connections, you know. This - while this club seems to be unfair in the school-world, actually increases equality between Muggleborns and Purebloods... by enabling the Muggleborns to get good connections! Third, this little club of his, trough the well-placed members actually benefits the entire Wizarding World. And of course, Slughorn's connections make him influential - which enables him to assist the next generation even better... What I'm saying is that, unless one can come up with a better idea than this little club that benefits all involved - to unify Hogwarts and place Muggleborns into high places so that would slowly but surely change certain attitudes... it is a good thing. Slughorn does value his own life, even as Phineas Nigellus told Harry, Slytherin saves his own skin first. And Slughorn makes no secret of that, either. About giving that memory -- blurring it -- well, he's ashamed of ever telling Tom Riddle about the Horcruxes. And he certainly isn't going to repeat the mistake. He won't discuss them anymore, and not giving that information to ANYONE. He gives the memory to Harry only after he figures that it will 'make up for it', and when he's certain it won't be used to make horcruxes but to destroy them. I think Harry's 'my mother gave her life for me and you won't give me a memory' had great influence, too. Finwitch From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 12:37:41 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:37:41 -0000 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137783 Brothergib wrote: I would like to finish by saying that it is still possible that I am wrong. Snape is a sadistic, unpleasant man - I still can't believe that he was upset when he didn't manage to kill Neville's toad with the shrinking solution. There are often times when he betrays a resentment? for DD. He is very excited about the prospect of Sirius' exposure to the Dementors. However, the big question for me is - Do you believe DD when he says that Voldemort's interpretation of the prophecy is the greatest regret of Snape's life. I do - and due to his hatred of James that has always led me to believe that Snape has some sort of connection with Lily. So for me, Snape in a nutshell... Unhappy childhood, bullied at school, unhappy as a DE. He also now seems committed to a plan that will help Harry Potter, of all people, to defeat Voldemort. His resentment for the way his life has turned out is huge, and he takes it out on everyone he can. But in the end, some connection with Lily is the reason Snape fights for good!! vmonte: I'm not trying to sway anyone in any direction but as a mother I wonder what JKR intends for Snape. Here is a teacher that likes to bully and torment children. And many of the children fear him or despise him (except for Slytherin of course). JKR has said that Snape is based on a teacher she once had. She also mentions that Snape is a sadistic teacher and that children can see right through this kind of teacher. I admit that I myself had a sadistic professor like this, so this may prejudice my point of view. The funny thing about my experience with this teacher is that although I loathed her evilness to me and to the other students, what I loathed more was the way that I did not defend myself. I took the abuse and was afraid of reporting her--and no one else reported her either. (Strangely I would only confront her face on in front of the class when she attacked other students, but not when she picked on me.) Years later I bumped into a student from that class and he thanked me for standing up to this teacher on behalf of all the other students. This man had been feeling bad for years because he had not had enough nerve to defend me. She was a blood sucking, soul sucking dementor. And I'll never forget her. Vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 12:38:25 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:38:25 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137784 > Finwitch: > > Well, I think he IS a good person. His game of favourites is very > different from Snape's. Valky: I think in essentials that Sluggy is Okay, good/ish/. At least not aligned toward evil as in Dark Magic. I wouldn't call hi *the Good Slytherin* exactly, but I would definitely goes as far as to say that he adds a dimension to slytherin that wasn't there in colour before, and I am glad of it. > Finwitch: > For one thing, the fact that his little club has members from all > houses. This in itself acts as a unifier of Hogwarts, whereas > Snape's Slytherin/Malfoy/DE-favoritism was cracking it. How, if not > for this little club, could a Gryffindor befriend - or at least > learn to know - a Slytherin? Then you get these persons tell their > housemates that - NO, that person in the Slug Club is not bad... > what better way to get rid of house-rivalry and prejudice? Valky: I agree there in some part, but I am also with harry on this one. In a sense this is a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. Sluggy may be exemplary in the respect that he defies the Blood supremacy dogma, and the in-house nepotism of Slytherin, but I see, as I think Harry also sees, that he isn't actually promoting unity. He just splits the coconut on a different angle. He's an elitist snob, and a gluttonous philanderer with a distinct penchant for prestige. Sluggy is kind of *into* disunity, because some are clearly more important and valuable than others, as far as he's concerned, though we must give him credit for the fact that he is inclined to act charitably and his pleasant demeanour overall, so he's generally good in my book. > Finwitch: > Slughorn does value his own life, even as Phineas Nigellus told > Harry, Slytherin saves his own skin first. And Slughorn makes no > secret of that, either. About giving that memory -- blurring it -- > well, he's ashamed of ever telling Tom Riddle about the Horcruxes. > And he certainly isn't going to repeat the mistake. Valky: To my mind this is absolutely evidence to his having a conscience, which is another plus to his character. Making him ever more likeable. Dumbledore I think would most of all respect this about Sluggy, and was also, I would suppose, probably have been counting on this goodness in Sluggy to be the motivator for his offering up of the memory. Which he will have estimated quite correctly, I might add. Harry was definitely able to, with the help of Felix, bring Sluggy round to the point where his conscience was taking little nibbles out of his sense of resolution to keep mum for his own sake and pride. I agree with Finwitch's overall interpretation, Slughorn is essentially a good guy, given to some unpleasant tendencies, but on the most his heart is in the right place, sometimes at least. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 12:39:23 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:39:23 -0000 Subject: Slughorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137785 Barb, 137733: Most wizards need to use a wand or > potions to change their appearance." I always assumed that Slughorn > transfigured himself, and the spell ended when he got poked by DD- he > was too distracted to keep the spell going. If there is other canon > that says that Slughorn is a metamorphmagus, I missed it, but I > don't think the armchair incident is any indicator of whether or not > he is one. a_svirn: We don't know whether he *was* transformed. It could have been a very elaborate optical illusion, of a kind that only a wizard of Dumbledore calibre would have seen through. hg: I went and looked it up last night -- DUH! We see him with his wand twice, once in my favorite bit: "Back to back, they waved their wands in one identical sweeping motion." I think the other one is the Hagrid scene. Thanks for pointing out that he isn't necessarily a metamorphmagus. And I like the idea of an optical illusion, because Slughorn seems to be based on a magician from the turn of the 20th century, Horace Goldin, who among other things learned from a wizard named Albini, had a pet tiger named Lily, and who developed a style of performing his magic very fast with no speech. JK didn't introduce Muggle magic into this book for nothing (remember the twins?), and I'm wondering if Slughorn is connected to that. Sue W, 137754: Also does anyone else think that it is significant that Slughorn seemed to recognise Slytherin's ring in the scene where DD and Harry visit him at the start of the book? How and why would he know anything about that ring, since it was supposedly hidden in the ruin of the Gaunt house for all those years? hg: I thought it was significant in that he would recognize the ring as being Tom's; he was wearing it in the discussion with Slughorn scene. Dumbledore here seems to be telling Slughorn that he knows about Horcruxes, he's destroyed one Horcrux but Voldemort is still alive -- and Harry is sitting on Dumbledore's left there (otherwise he wouldn't have a clear shot of the ring), so I also think Dumbledore is showing Slughorn how important it is to find out about the Horcruxes, for Harry's sake. hg. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 16 12:59:06 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:59:06 -0000 Subject: chills (was Re: Anothe Snape Question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137786 "esmith222002" wrote: > OK, technically this involves the films, but I want to try and connect > it in some way to canon! > In PS/SS the film, Snape wishes Harry good luck before his first > Quidditch match. This scene is not in the book, and I was wondering if > anyone can remember anywhere in the books where Snape is civil to Harry > in this manner? Potioncat: I would say in general, the movie!Snape is much softer than canon! Snape. Although my teenage daughter says the "Good afternoon. What are three such Gryffindors..." scene in SS/PS is the scariest movie scene she's ever seen, and she's a horror movie fan! I cannot begin to guess why the movies have Snape doing such different things from canon when the scripts leave out such juicy scenes. Why is Snape standing between the Trio and the werewolf?...or why he isn't blasting the werewolf with his wand? If the movie makers knew something we didn't, it could be to foreshadow that Snape isn't as bad as he appears; but, honestly, I doubt the movie makers know what's coming. I was disappointed that they left out Snape's fit at the end of PoA...I was looking forward to it. And it appears they may have filmed it (watching the background during the TT scene.) But to bring this around to canon...sort of...remember the "Several scenes gave me chills. Fans will think it was intentional foreshadowing of the next books..."(parphrase of JKR comment about PoA!Movie) I think I spotted it. In the movie, Buckbeak attacks the werewolf, chasing it away...just like Witherwings will chase Snape away in HBP. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 16 13:08:36 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:08:36 -0000 Subject: Funerals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > In HBP, we are shown a wizard funeral. People sitting, mourning, speeches (from a man in > black? I'd really like to know who this is btw) etc. All of DD's friends, supporters, > colleagues, etc come to pay their respect. Which got me thinking about Sirius' death. I > realize there was no body to bury... but wouldn't there be some kind of ceremony? > Wouldn't it have given some closure for Harry and members of the OOTP? Isn't it a bit > strange that noone did anything? At the very least, he WAS a black- someone should've > had a "proper" goodbye. Marianne: I agree - I felt the total lack of any sort of ceremony very strange and unsatisfying. We, the readers, didn't even have to be present at a memorial service. It could have simply been mentioned in passing. It's like saying that, if there's no body, there is no acknowledgment of a person's death, or of the life they once had. We'll all just pretend he left town and didn't leave a forwarding address. Pure speculation here - I think that Harry will in some way memorialize Sirius in Book 7, if he does indeed go to Godric's Hollow and visit his parents' graves. (Aside: how long has Harry known where his parents were buried? Who told him? When? Why is a visit only occurring to him now?) Lisa graves: > This also led me to think about wizard funerals in general. Why bury one of the greatest > wizards- wouldn't his body be in danger of becoming an inferi with Voldewart running > around? Just the sight of DD as an inferi could be enough to send people staight to St. > Mungo's. Marianne: I imagine that there are powerful protections on DD's tomb that would prevent this particular type of tomb raiding. I have to reread the descriptions of Inferi. Are they created from people who have died, and not yet been buried? Or can they be created from any dead body, regardless of how long ago that person died? And what about the other big ceremonies - weddings and baptisms? What are the Wizard versions of these? I suspect we might see a wedding between Bill and Fleur, so perhaps that question may be answered. I wonder, though, about the level of committment that is required of a godparent. In JKR's recent TLC/Mugglenet interview she seemed to shy away from fully discussing Harry's baptism. I got the feeling that Sirius as godfather was required to take some sort of vow that went beyond the traditional "I promise to take care of the kid if something happens to the parents." Again, it's speculation on my part. But, as at this time, according to the recent interview, the Potters were already in hiding because of the danger to Harry, perhaps there was an additional level of protection for the child agreed to by the godfather because Harry faced greater peril than most children. Marianne From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 13:15:14 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:15:14 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137788 > Finwitch wrote: > > So yes, I'd say that, a piece of Voldemort's soul was within Harry, > > and it communicated with Harry's soul... However, when Voldemort > > seemingly 'attempted to possess' Harry, maybe he that piece of his > > soul joined the rest of him? > > Valky: > I really think you're on to something there Finwitch. Ok, Pheonix!Finwitch/Valky I'm hanging onto your tail here as you take flight, but just before we hit orbit I want to throw in an anchor ? When I responded to Vivian's post I quoted two pieces of cannon, Finwitch only snipped the second quote and Chinese whispers like, ISTM something has got lost in the telling :-) Here's the first one again: Uk Ed COS p245 "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure " "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said thunderstruck. "It certainly seems so." DD seems to think that what was transferred to Harry was Voldemort's *powers* not a bit of his soul. Now I am presuming that both wizards and muggles both have souls. There is no cannon evidence to support this, but I feel reasonably confident that it is so. The difference between muggles and witches (let's have gender balances here) is their magical ability ? their powers. It therefore seems to me that magical powers are a separate entity to the soul. When Voldemort loses his body, he says that he still had his powers, (GoF graveyard scene) as though he speculated that he could have been in that situation without his powers. (Although I well realise that you could make an argument that if powers are a soul-add-on then of course he would still have them. But maybe that's an argument for another post, I'll make this point first.) I think DD was right on both counts ? Voldemort transferred his *powers* and he failed to make Harry into a Horcrux ? accidental or otherwise. (Lost count of the times I've said Harry is *not* a Horcrux, and for someone who has a bed, sofa and kitchen sink on the fence, that's something.) This is something I've been thinking about but wasn't going to post yet, but now I've started, as they say, I'll continue. I think that Harry has Voldemort's powers so that they are on an *equal* footing. Yes, this is what I think it means when the prophecy says ? mark him as his equal. I think the reason for this is thematic, and not to do with destroying Horcruxes, or making complications for the final confrontation. IMO, it's much more about choices. Harry and Voldemort have the same resources to use, the important thing is that they choose to use them differently. Also, having those particular powers, which so far I think consist of parceltongue, legilimency and possession (thank you to the unnamed person who pointed out the last one to me ? perhaps it was you Valky?) means that Harry has ideal powers to be tempted to the dark side, and IMO JKR is ratcheting it up on that score. Just in case your puzzled, we all know Harry is a parceltongue, I posted recently on Harry being a natural legilimens, and it wouldn't surprise me if possession features in the final showdown ? watch this space for ideas on that. The question I am still turning over in my mind is exactly how do powers manifest and where do those powers reside in the body? I'm toying with the idea that they are in your hands ? hence, the reference to "at the hand of the other" in the prophecy and DD only offering two fingers of his left hand for destroying a Horcrux and the fact that his dead right hand would mean his powers were diminished, as we were told they were. Finwitch wrote: > > You see -- that was Harry's childhood 'friend', Tom Riddle. (that > > deja vu)... an invisible friend, too. Valky wrote: >Tom Riddle, a name that was familiar to Harry, as though it was > a childhood friend he'd forgotten, I think that having something as personal as Voldemort's special powers would be equally as effective for your arguments about the familiarity of Tom Riddle. I've now anchored myself, I'm not sure if I'm just left holding a bunch of tail feathers, or whether you're hovering round me. I look forward to finding out, Finwitch and Valky. Thanks for your enthusiasm, it never fails but to bring a smile to my face! Saraquel From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 13:21:39 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:21:39 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137789 > mimbeltonia wrote: > > Dumbledore could have decided to trust him not on his honest > > face and touching tale, but on basis of a carefully worded > > unbreakable vow to fight Voldemort as a double agent whatever it > > took. > Saraquel: > I too have toyed with the idea that Snape might have taken an UV > with DD, but one to protect Harry, as payment for the life-debt to > James', which his action in blabbing the prophecy to Voldemort > reneged on. > > *However*, my instinctive feeling is that DD is not the sort of > person who would demand that. Somehow, I think DD wants people to > make FREE choices, and a UV could be seen as a form of compulsion - > Ok Severus, I'll believe you have repented when you take a UV. The > faith here is in the power of the UV, rather than Severus. I think > DD is more along the lines of: I'll have the faith in you that you > have repented and in doing so will empower you to continue in this > decision, knowing that if you lapse, you forsake the real power > which my faith in you gave to you, and the chance to regain that > most important of characteristics, self respect. > > It's often said on the list that Snape wants RESPECT and > recognition. The reason he still wants it IMO is because he has no > self respect. > Valky: Ahh Saraquel, just can't avoid thinking alike can we ;D I gree with what you have said above. It's just not Dumbledore to demand a UV, besides which, I just can't get past the fact that during the scene with Snapes UV in spinners End, the text draws an analogy to the coils of a snake tying his hands. It's just seems too patently obvious that it's a Worst of Slytherin type magic even if you don't see that its completely in opposition with Dumbledore's creed of Choice and Love. AS to this Iron-Clad reason for trusting Snape. I am trying very hard to dig in and uncover it at last, but the closer I get, the more it seems to me that Dumbledore's Iron Clad reason didn't include expecting Snape to behave himself and stay out of trouble. In fact it actually seems to me that DD based his reason on the guarantee, almost, that Sevvie *would* bury himself again. But that there was one thing, just this one small powerful thing that *proved* to Dumbledore that as deeply into the clutches of evil as SS would go, the man he was hd been apready reveled by the choices he had made in the past, and that man was ultimately on the right side. This goes to why DD tried to keep SS from the DADA position all those years. Knowing that Snape would get himself into strife if he began wandering that path again, DD (maybe like he'd hoped with Harry) that he could help to spare Snape a few more moments in the 'sun' before his inevitable third strike in the hell of his own creations. Possibly, as he did with Harry, he felt he had been too soft on Sevvie too long, and while Sevvie could have been facing his demons at last, he was safe under the watchful eye of Dumbledore instead who tried desperately to spare him his inevitable fate one more time and then one more time again. When Voldemort finally reappeared in the year of GOF, with a heavy heart DD realises that it is time to send Snape back to the lions, and for a short while he shoulders this responsibility and keeps Sevvie carefully blinded to the path before him. In the end however he knows that Snape will fall back into a trap a demise of his own making in spite of his having been loyal for many years. Snape just cannot help but to bring the world crashing down on himself before he realises where his heart truly is. So here I offer, as far as I can gather, the basis for DD's trust of Snape. Dumbledore trusts that while he has a firm hand on the steering wheel he can keep Severus from tangling himself up in evil, And Severus is, in this way, capable of immense good despite his terrible demeanour. Once DD lets go of the wheel, he knows he is setting the bird free. He knows that he is leaving Severus to his own devices completely, which will in turn mean that someday soon down the track Sevvie is going to get himself in the same position he was twice ago faced with the consequences of his awful deeds. And it is this that Dumbledore trusts most fully, most remarkably, he trusts that Snape cannot act evilly in this moment. In spite of all the worst that Severus can do, this particular moment, which is utmostly important is the moment Snape chooses what's right, over what is easy. No I don't really like it either, it's weak as watered down tea I think. But I have a feeling that approaching the question more from the angle of abstract philosophy to reveal traces of some magic or inner hidden reality that only someone like Dumbledore could see, would be the only way to come up with something *Iron-clad*. No confession or imposition of outside will is going to be the complete answer to this mystery IMHO. > > houyhnhnm: > The most character revealing scene, IMO, is during the first > occlumency lesson. > > "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord," said > Snape savagely. "Fools that wear their hearts proudly on their > sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad > memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily--weak > people, in other words--they stand no chance against his powers!" > > Clearly, he is speaking of himself, with a passion and an honesty we > don't see anywhere else. Valky: I agree he's referring to something in himself. I think that at this point Snape is sure he is imparting *priceless* wisdom, its firly obvious that he is given to failing in his estimation of Harry, quite often. And here I think is a moment before Snape gets his first hand taste of what dormant magic lies in Harry. (aside: I got the sense of Sevvie ctually biting his tongue in Spinners End when he spoke of Harry's magical ability. I don't believe he ever actually *had* to do that before he was exposed to Harry's inner grace during Occlumency.) I know this diverts from canon, but I have this incredible hunch that Snape became intensely curious about these defenses Harry possessed, which were, *shock Gasp*, better than his! Baically I think that on the quiet there is a sense of Snape going on a learning curve after his experiences with Harry's mind. In particular, I recall, Harry summoned the will to push Snape out of his mind when Snape ventured too close to his feelings for Cho. Consider Snapes speech and then this. Interesting isn't it, here's Sevvie expounding on and on about feelings being a weakness, and yet Harry defies him *absolutely* on this when his immediate feelings are the **one thing** that Snape *can't* touch. Sevvie is a thinker, we discover concretely in HBP, that he *likes* it when some uncoventional approach improves on the traditional. It would seem, that a mind like Snapes couldn't deny the wake up call that Harry gave him in Occlumency.. "Crush them it releases more juice.." is an uncanny parrallel really, while Snape is so determined that this inclination to feel and emote is a weakness, Harry is there using it for strength, delivering a strong (albeit uncontrolled) defense against the probing. Here I am starting to think I'm realising why Snape was such a busybody in Harry's head all through HBP. Does his curiosity get the better of him and he really wants to know this little trick Harry uses? So he listens and listens to Harrys thoughts (and Harry is projecting like a madman) waiting for the little clue, that will lead him to this better more brilliant Defense against Dark Arts. Snape goes on to sit with Harry once a week, willingly sitting with Harry all Saturday. Is it so he can listen to Harry's Head? I am starting to really think that it was. It might be, that by the time Snape left Hogwarts, he figured out all he needed to know, and now, he can keep a much bigger secret from Voldie than ever before if he likes to. Maybe he will, thanks to Harry. A lot of wild speculating but it was fun.. Oh yeah, that would probably explain why he made Harry go through James and Sirius old detention cards. If the key to Harry's defense was people he loves then it would be appropriate to attack Sirius' memory in order to invoke Harry to defend him internally. Kind of makes sense. So how would we find out about that, well I suppose Snape would tell Harry, Thankyou, you helped me keep some of the best secrets I have ever needed to keep. Maniacal laughter .. Valky From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 16 13:21:55 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:21:55 -0000 Subject: Greyback In-Reply-To: <20050816051022.2870.qmail@web60311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137790 --- Dave wrote: > I view Greyback as a violent rapist who is infected with Aids or some other sexually transmitted disease. He reminds me of a recent Florida suspect who raped a little girl, and threw her away like garbage: He then put her into a barrel upside down and then filled the barrel with rocks. Amazingly, police found the girl still alive a couple of days later. Hopefully the suspect will be locked up forever with a cell mate like Greyback. > > Dave > > ADMIN Note: When responding to this message, please remember that if you are discussing pedophilia or the Florida example Dave cites, and not addressing Greyback specifically, the post should be sent to our sister list, HPFGU-OTChatter. Thanks! aussie says:- More than Voldemort, Greyback is set up to be the most destestable, repulsive creature in Harry's world. - The fear in Blotts face at the mention of Ferir Greyback's name. - Killing a 5 year old child - Purposefully positioning himself near young children before loosing control of himself on a full moon - Attacking a person in a cannibalistic way while not having an induced state to use as an excuse Harry can kill LV, but throw Greyback to Norbert as a light snack. N )\ \ / /( O )-(0^^0)-( R )/ \\// \( B (oo) E_______________oOo___''___oOo________________ R T If ever you are going to bring Norbert back in, Jo, this guy screams out to be his victim. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 13:33:24 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:33:24 -0000 Subject: Harry is a Powers!Horcrux - Was Re: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137791 >Vmonte wrote: >I need help with understanding something. Voldemort cannot be killed >because he's got his horcruxes spread all over town, right? > >blown to bits or was one of the remains found at the scene. Who >knows >maybe the hand-of-glory was created from one of his hands-HAHA). > >So, what exactly happened to Harry then? Why does he have some of >Voldemort's powers? Something must have entered him via the scar? >Did whatever Lily do split this vapor essence in half? so that part >of LV floated away and another part entered Harry? Saraquel: Voldemort's Powers Part 2!! Just picked up your post, Vivian and it has made me realise something. I've just posted an answer up thread to this one to Finwitch and Valky, where I speculated that magical powers were stored in the hands. Then I read your post, Vivian and realised that Voldemort had his powers but no body. Then I had a stunning realisation!!! Harry is Voldemorts POWERS!HORCRUX i.e. Voldemort is only here because bits of his soul are somewhere else stored in a Horcrux BUT he only had his powers after his body was destroyed because part of them is stored in Harry. This for me is a HUGE BANG MOMENT!! Anyone agree? Saraquel From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 13:55:27 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:55:27 -0000 Subject: Harry is a Powers!Horcrux - Was Re: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137792 A very excited Saraquel, is trying to work out, if what I think about the powers situation is correct, will Harry end up having to sacrifice his magical powers in order to defeat Voldemort? I'm too dithery to think straight at the moment. Someone help me. I've got a lurking horrible suspicion that it will mean Voldemort will be able to strip Harry of his magical powers somehow, mirroring what Harry is doing with Voldemort's Soul!Horcruxes and then it really will be down to can Love Save the Day. I'm going to have to take some time out to think this through. I think this might be my fourth post today, so perhaps that's a good thing - I'll have to shut up now. Saraquel From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 16 14:01:24 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:01:24 -0000 Subject: Sirius as godfather (Re: Funerals) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137793 Marianne: > I wonder, though, about the level of committment that is required of > a godparent. In JKR's recent TLC/Mugglenet interview she seemed to > shy away from fully discussing Harry's baptism. I got the feeling > that Sirius as godfather was required to take some sort of vow that > went beyond the traditional "I promise to take care of the kid if > something happens to the parents." > > Again, it's speculation on my part. But, as at this time, according > to the recent interview, the Potters were already in hiding because > of the danger to Harry, perhaps there was an additional level of > protection for the child agreed to by the godfather because Harry > faced greater peril than most children. Jen: One of my favorite speculations! I'm glad JKR offered hope for a twist in the godparent ceremony during her recent interviews. I wrote a possible scenario in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105067 Re-reading my old thoughts, suggesting a Sirius sacrifice would somehow strengthen Lily's sacrifice--I'm not sure about that part now. After the recent interviews, JKR makes it very clear how unique Lily's sacrifice was, unheard of before then and conferring a special protection never seen in the WW (except DD knows of it, so what to make of that? Must be he knows the possibilty of it within the context of ancient magic, but hasn't seen it before Lily). But I still think there would be some benefit to Harry if Sirius were to die in the act of protecting him. A clause in the guardianship thingy, something Sirius would readily agree to. That quality in him, being willing to die if needed, was probably part of the reason he was chosen, along with being an Order member and unflinchingly loyal to James. Jen From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Aug 16 14:15:27 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:15:27 -0000 Subject: chills (was Re: Anothe Snape Question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > But to bring this around to canon...sort of...remember the "Several > scenes gave me chills. Fans will think it was intentional foreshadowing > of the next books..."(parphrase of JKR comment about PoA!Movie) I think > I spotted it. In the movie, Buckbeak attacks the werewolf, chasing it > away...just like Witherwings will chase Snape away in HBP. Interesting! I thought the foreshadowing was the protective actions of Snape towards HRH you mentioned. And possibly Lupin's warm words with respect to Lily! Brothergib From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 16 14:41:40 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:41:40 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137796 > Valky: > I gree with what you have said above. It's just not Dumbledore to > demand a UV, besides which, I just can't get past the fact that > during the scene with Snapes UV in spinners End, the text draws an > analogy to the coils of a snake tying his hands. It's just seems > too patently obvious that it's a Worst of Slytherin type magic > even if you don't see that its completely in opposition with > Dumbledore's creed of Choice and Love. Jen: Hee, Valky, you pick up on the most interesting clues! I never thought about it, but the analogy of the Unbreakable Vow to Snape's hands being tied is really obvious imagery in that scene, isn't it? Valky: > This goes to why DD tried to keep SS from the DADA position all > those years. Knowing that Snape would get himself into strife if > he began wandering that path again, DD (maybe like he'd hoped with > Harry) that he could help to spare Snape a few more moments in > the 'sun' before his inevitable third strike in the hell of his > own creations. Possibly, as he did with Harry, he felt he had been > too soft on Sevvie too long, and while Sevvie could have been > facing his demons at last, he was safe under the watchful eye of > Dumbledore instead who tried desperately to spare him his > inevitable fate one more time and then one more time again. Jen: Dumbledore's fatal flaw in the end, trying to spare the ones he loves. Sirius in OOTP was another canon example, as well as the most poignant example in HBP, Draco. And I think Draco on the tower symbolized ALL the students Dumbledore watched over the years who struggled because of circumstances and beliefs to make the right choice in the end. It's easy to love and attempt to protect Harry from harm because he's 'Dumbledore's man through and through', like his parents, but to love Draco and try to spare him a fate he brought about through his own ignorance and family ties (much like Snape, I suspect)....those precious moments may have cost Dumbledore his life. Valky: > So here I offer, as far as I can gather, the basis for DD's trust > of Snape. Dumbledore trusts that while he has a firm hand on the > steering wheel he can keep Severus from tangling himself up in > evil, And Severus is, in this way, capable of immense good despite > his terrible demeanour. Once DD lets go of the wheel, he knows he > is setting the bird free. He knows that he is leaving Severus to > his own devices completely, which will in turn mean that someday > soon down the track Sevvie is going to get himself in the same > position he was twice ago faced with the consequences of his awful > deeds. And it is this that Dumbledore trusts most fully, most > remarkably, he trusts that Snape cannot act evilly in this moment. Jen: You know, this explanation rings completely true for me. In part because we know for sure Dumbledore was aware of the Unbreakable Vow, at least since Christmas. I'm not much of a Snape theorizer so everyone else probably caught on to this long before I did , but I noticed that Harry tells Arthur, Lupin and Dumbledore *everything* he overheard between Snape and Draco, including about the UV. (Which, btw, I was very proud of him for even though he got nowhere. We know trusting adults isn't exactly his strength, yet he was totally sure he needed to tell any adult who would listen about that conversation. And he was *right* this time, doggone it!). So Dumbledore was fully aware, long before the tower, the mess Snape got *himself* into. And he knew before their argument, too. No great plan at work between DD & Snape up to this point, even if a plan evolved from there. But you left out the ending! Tell me the ending to this fairy tale, which track did he take this time? Was the third time the charm or the curse? Did he make the right decision, in the end? Is he more like Draco or Tom? I know, I know, we have to decide for ourselves *pouts*. Jen From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 14:51:09 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:51:09 -0000 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137797 "esmith222002" wrote: > Do you believe DD when he says that > Voldemort's interpretation of the > prophecy is the greatest regret of > Snape's life. I believe that when Snape told Voldemort half of the Prophesy he didn't know it involved Lilly, when he found out he went to Dumbledore and told him that Voldemort was after the Potter family. That's one reason Dumbledore trusted Snape to the end, the other is that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry Potter until he killed Voldemort. Snape was genuinely sorry that Lilly died but not that James had, and because he heard the entire Prophesy he was not surprised that Harry survived and that Voldemort nearly died. > He [Snape] also now seems committed > to a plan that will help Harry Potter, > of all people, to defeat Voldemort. Yes indeed, Snape wants Voldemort dead just as much as Harry does, but for very different reasons. > Snape fights for good!! Snape fights against Voldemort but that's not the same as saying he fights for good, in fact he murders the good. Eggplant From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Aug 16 15:00:18 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:00:18 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137798 --- eggplant wrote: > ME, JKR, the sole surviving descendent of the noble Harry Potter. I think you mean "sole surviving ancestor." -- Matt From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Tue Aug 16 15:27:12 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:27:12 -0000 Subject: Fawkes the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jo" wrote: > > Luckdragon: > > > > I thought so too, and posted the same idea right after the book came > out. It was very quickly brought to my attention that it would not be > in DD's nature to kill, nor would he likely perform such dark magic. I > still can't bring myself to believe he is truly gone. He knew so much > there has to be a way he could have arranged to come back and I still > feel Fawkes would be involved in some way. Only time will tell...2 > years..groan! I agree that Dumbledore is unlikely to have a horcrux, as it seems that he would not perform that kind of magic (even banned it from Hogwarts), and expresses his lack of fear of death. However, even though we think, as does McGonagall that Dumbledore is "too noble" to use dark magic, he has been around for a long time -- 150 years, over 100 when he defeated Grindewald. I think it is possible that his inclination to give just about EVERYONE opportunities and second chances may stem his own experience of converting to good, or having been given a second chance at one time earlier in his life. Perhaps the best dark wizard catchers would be those who have a unique insight into the psychology of dark wizards. Yes, I think DD is now too noble to use dark magic, but that may not have always been the case. On Fawkes...I agree that we will likely be seeing more of him in book 7, still providing assistance to those who continue to be loyal to Dumbledore. Cheryl From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 16 15:55:45 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:55:45 -0000 Subject: Why didn't DD tell all Voldy = TR? (was: Marriage at Hogwarts and in the WW) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137800 SSSusan: > > But the question of why DD didn't tell the whole WW that TR = LV > > is still intriguing, no? a_svirn: > I don't see how it would make any difference. Most DE surely know > LV's previous name. > Maybe no one asked? Dumbledore doesn't strike me as a type to write > open letters to the Daily Prophet SSSusan, quite obviously behind in reading posts: You're correct, a_svirn, that at least *some* of the DEs have to be familiar w/ Voldy's given name, as they were associates [hesitate to use the word "friends" based upon DD's comments] during Tom's time at Hogwarts. Still... I keep thinking back to Bellatrix's reaction at the MoM, when Harry made the pronouncement about Voldy being a half-blood. She spluttered and denied and was generally royally kerfuffled by this. *That* implied, to me, that some DEs were not in the know -- even Bella, who clearly had been pretty high up on Voldy's list (although not long out of Azkaban, either). Maybe you're right -- maybe nobody asked, or maybe they knew the *name* but didn't know the family history. So perhaps the better question is: Why didn't DD broadcast both who Voldy really was and *what* he really was? It sure seems suspicious to me that he didn't. I mean, DD's making such an announcement might well have lost Voldy some supporters among the pureblood set. Siriusly Snapey Susan From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 16:16:04 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:16:04 -0000 Subject: It's over... In-Reply-To: <00ad01c5a250$ca234680$b2c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137801 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > [Snape is ] A bad guy working for the good guys I think it would be more accurate to say Snape was working with (not for) the good guys and continued to do so just as long as it profitable for him to do so. > loyal to Dumbledore and the Order. If Snape is a bad guy as you say (and me too) what would be his motive for being loyal to Dumbledore? And I must say murdering a man is an odd way to demonstrate your loyalty to him > As to whether or not Snape *really* > killed Dumbledore that is open for > much interpretation. Certainly > Harry believes it How silly of Harry to believe his eyes. > Harry will come to realize, though > Hermione's help, or Moody's help, > that what he saw wasn't a true AK A classic case of denial, rationalizations in the teeth of overwhelming evidence. Snape is not only guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, to my mind he is guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. JKR may not have developed your favorite character in the direction you wanted but that's the way it is. > I think Snape's part in the final > book will be quite limited. I disagree. I think Harry and Snape will meet face to face in the last pages of the last book, and the results will not be pretty. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 16:26:19 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:26:19 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137802 Eggplant wrote: > > ME, JKR, the sole surviving descendent of the noble Harry Potter. Matt" Wrote: > I think you mean "sole surviving ancestor." Nope, I meant what I said. Think about it, "sole surviving ancestor" doesn't really make any sense. And ancestors are not usually surviving. Eggplant From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 16 16:31:58 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:31:58 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137803 Lupinlore: Frankly I'm not the slightest bit > interested in an evil DE who has been fooling Dumbledore for sixteen years, nor am I attracted to a super spy who has remained rock-solid loyal for sixteen years despite evidence and appearances to the contrary. Pippin: You aren't the only one to make this mistake, but I must point out that the math is off. Evil Snape would have had to fool Dumbledore for 16+ years. But Good Snape only has to have fooled Voldemort for some period between the prophecy and the downfall, and then for some two years since the end of GoF. In between Voldemort was indeed convinced that Snape had left him forever. Either way, such feats are not unknown in the annals of real life espionage. The Cambridge Four carried on in their tasks for far longer. They were super spies, and their success changed the definition of what is plausible. If Snape indeed changed sides when Voldemort was winning, then like the Cambridge Four, his reasons must have been ideological as much as opportunistic, the more so if he then took on the role of spy rather than the safety of Dumbledore's witness protection program. I can't see such a man wavering -- indeed, when have we ever seen Snape waver? A constant struggle to remain committed might be more interesting if Snape was the main character, but he's not. For Harry, the problem is the same whether Snape has been on the same side all along or he hasn't, namely, which side is Snape on now? Harry knows what he saw. But Harry is a lousy witness. He draws conclusions, often from facts not in evidence, he tampers with the body, wiping the smear of blood from Dumbledore's mouth, and he often forgets to tell people things that might change their view of the situation. For instance he never told Dumbledore that Trelawney had been attacked. His version of Snape's defection does not accord with what Harry himself heard Dumbledore say in the pensieve, that Snape had returned to the good side before the Potters died. But I think this is like the Shipping Wars of yore. People fix on their notion of the One True Snape and if canon doesn't bear them out, well then, canon must be faulty. Could be, certainly. And maybe Aesop's fox was right and the grapes were sour after all, at least for that particular fox. De gustibus... Pippin From prep0strus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 16:39:37 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:39:37 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: <0C7AF4692D7A6143A72AD00E5681D7E50A0F73@ESWW02.CSUMain.csu.edu.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wood, Susan" wrote: > > I'm interested in your reading of Slughorn as 'clearly a 'good' person'. > I agree that he is not nice and not fair, but I don't see what evidence > there is that he is a good person. > Right after I made that post, I regretted the phrase 'clearly good'. (though it is fun to have spawned a topic of conversation) Not that much can be considered 'clear', and good is simply too vague. My impression, however, is that Slughorn is, 'not evil', which is not equivelent to good. Even that could be vague... Umbridge might be considered 'not evil' if evil is only defined by Voldemort & the Death Eaters. I would consider Slughorn 'unpleasant', but that doesn't seem strong enough for Umbridge... one of the things that makes the books more interesting as we go along is this murkiness - the shades of grey present in the characters. I believe Slughorn to be a self important, elitest tool. I think he is someone who I really wouldn't like in real life, and would strive to stay away from. However, I don't see evil in him, or any desire to help out Death Eaters or their ilk. They have a differnet goal than him. He wants to have ties to everyone important, to feel important by making them more powerful and connected, him the center of a giant web of the influential. He doesn't care about your race or bloodedness or gender - he cares about how powerful you are and what connections you have or could make. He doesn't want to kill the weak or control the world through dictatorship - just get warm fuzzy feelings from his own importance. (IMO) I managed to be even more imprecise when I used the word 'good' again to say I wanted to see a truly good slytherin. What I really want is to see a Slytherin I can like. I've already given up on finding consistency in the houses, so I'd like to just see some evidence of why they should exist at all. Why Godric, Helga, and Rowena wouldn't've just started a 3 house school. We have some Slytherin students - who are unpleasant, and at least intrigued by evil. We have Snape, the topic of discussion of 4/5 posts on where he stands - but no one can really say he isn't an unpleasant person. And finally, we have Slughorn, who yI could almost like, even with his flaws. I mean, a lazy, cowardly wizard who likes the finer things in life and having connections? Not TOO terrible. But then we see the almost brutal way he dismisses those who are not worthy in his eyes. We see his elitism, and I then feel like he's a character whose flaws as a person outway his simple 'not evilness'. JKR seems to be saying we've met pretty much all the major characters. If that's true, I don't see how there will ever be a Slytherin who I will be able to like and root for. In a world that contains so much grey, I don't know why this has to be so black and white. We've met unpleasant Gryffindors and Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs. There must be a pleasant Slytherin. Or purge the school of them!!! I do agree with Marianne S., who (I think it was her) gave a great list of how he serves the story. I think he's an interesting character who has added and will continue to add to the story. I think I'm just still irritated by my inability to understand what JKR is trying to do with her house system and what she's trying to say about the people in each house. ~Prep0strus From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 16:50:29 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:50:29 +0200 Subject: Wands, Pleading and Killing References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137805 Yo! Okay, maybe this theory have been discussed before, but I had no knowledge of it because I've been out of the PC for almost two months, but something disturbed me in the chapter where Snape kills Dumbledore. First, please excuse my unperfect english (I'm a french-speaking Belgian chick). I've done my possible to make this short theory clear. :) Okay, here we go: Draco wanted to kill Dumbledore, and Snape made the vow, this mean if he would fail, he would die. We all know this. Maybe Snape told about it to Dumbledore! YES! And Dumbledore maybe told him: 'Do not break the vow, I have a plan' Okay, I'm not the only one thinking this. But there's something that disturbed me... a tiny thing that may pass as minor, but JKR is evil, and we all know this. (If you read this, JK, evil means wonderful for us. ) =P And in this infamous chapter, when Snape was standing in front of Dumbledore, and Dumbledore pleading... Pleading to kill him? Why not? After all... ..SNAPE HAS NOT RAISED HIS WANT BEFORE DUMBLEDORE ASKED HIM TO!!! This is what I've noticed. Here's a clearer example: If a certain person like Snape, with the similar past and stuff would stand in a crowd of killers in front of you like this, weapon down, in such a situation, would you plead this person for your life? NO. Same case except the person is in front of you, pointing his/her weapon at you, would you plead for your life? YES! Here. This is short, but this is a strange behaviour Snape shown in this chapter in my opinion... Anyway, I hope this wand theory has not been told here before, otherwise, I would look stupid! (J/K) Anyway... there... Valy. PS: I'm sorry if this theory was short and maybe a little weird, but well... From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 16 17:16:43 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:16:43 -0000 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? In-Reply-To: <00a801c5a1e5$439925a0$bb3a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137806 The best books are the ones you can read and reread life long and take something different away from the experience each time. When I read again a book I haven't read for several years, I find that my attitude towards the characters has changed because my own life experiences have changed me. For instance, when I read _Great Expectations_ as a teenager, all I was interested in was whether or not Pip and Stella would get together. Rereading the book as a middle aged adult, I was more interested in Pip's transcending his selfishness by learning to feel compassion for Magwitch. Was it unsophisticated of me to read only for the romance? Well, yes, it was, but that was what was relevant to me as an adolescent. It would not have improved my appreciation of the book one bit, for someone to call me unsophisticated. I suspect that there is an age correlation working, as well, in the dispute over the character of Severus Snape. I don't think either group is going to convince the other. Perhaps people should just stay away from threads that they know are going to incense them. I am trying to do that, although, obviously, I violated my own rule in this case. Every reader has the right to get what he or she gets from the book. houyhnhnm From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 17:18:40 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:18:40 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > You aren't the only one to make this mistake, but I must point out > that the math is off. Evil Snape would have had to fool Dumbledore > for 16+ years. But Good Snape only has to have fooled Voldemort > for some period between the prophecy and the downfall, and > then for some two years since the end of GoF. In between Voldemort > was indeed convinced that Snape had left him forever. Good!Snape would also have been keeping up something of a front towards those of Voldemort's supporters who were free, no? That's always been one postulated reason for his showy nasty behavior to a young Harry Potter, being as Voldemort was not back and active when Harry arrived at school. If we have a Self-Interested!Snape, playing both sides as best he can, he's not under the same kind of strain as your committed Evil!Snape. > If Snape indeed changed sides when Voldemort was winning, > then like the Cambridge Four, his reasons must have been > ideological as much as opportunistic, the more so if he then took > on the role of spy rather than the safety of Dumbledore's witness > protection program. This is, of course, assuming that Dumbledore is correct in his assertion that Snape switched sides *at great risk to Snape*. If Snape had been sent by Voldemort initially (as he asserts to Bellatrix in ch. 2; is he lying or not?), then there is no such great danger, and quite possibly no initial ideological motivation. [An open and interesting possibility is a Snape who was sent to spy, but converted once there; unprovable at present, natch.] > His version of Snape's defection does not accord with what Harry > himself heard Dumbledore say in the pensieve, that Snape had > returned to the good side before the Potters died. I can't quite find all the canon to match, but I'm under the impression that everyone else is having trouble making the timeline for Snape's teaching at Hogwarts, defection, and everything else match up exactly. This could be 'ooh, maths', it could be a case where it works if you tweak it one way (but without cold hard evidence), or it could be deliberate. > But I think this is like the Shipping Wars of yore. People fix on > their notion of the One True Snape and if canon doesn't bear them > out, well then, canon must be faulty. Could be, certainly. > And maybe Aesop's fox was right and the grapes were sour after all, > at least for that particular fox. De gustibus... I'll still be waiting to read your thematic revaluation of Lupin when he's not one of the prime factors for active evil, Pippin. :) -Nora wishes JKR would answer some of the timeline questions straight up From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Tue Aug 16 17:23:37 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:23:37 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137808 Prep0strus wrote: > JKR seems to be saying we've met pretty much all the major > characters. If that's true, I don't see how there will ever be a > Slytherin who I will be able to like and root for. In a world that > contains so much grey, I don't know why this has to be so black and > white. We've met unpleasant Gryffindors and Ravenclaws and > Hufflepuffs. There must be a pleasant Slytherin. Or purge the > school of them!!! > > I do agree with Marianne S., who (I think it was her) gave a great > list of how he serves the story. I think he's an interesting > character who has added and will continue to add to the story. I > think I'm just still irritated by my inability to understand what JKR > is trying to do with her house system and what she's trying to say > about the people in each house. > > ~Prep0strus Cheryl writes: I think the house system is, overall, a divisive tool and hope it is elimitated from Hogwarts at the end of book 7. People have many different characteristics, despite their house, and seem to be sorted into houses based on what the Sorting Hat determines to be their primary qualities. However, the effect might be a self- fulfilling prophecy. After all, everyone "knows" Slytherins are bad, slimy, self-serving, and ambitions using any means to achieve their ends, everyone "knows" Gryffindors are brave, etc... and Slytherins are all grouped together in a house with similar types which might only bring out the worst in them. Yes, a person's characteristics determine which house they are sorted into, but might also a student's house affect their development, their behaviour, their self-perception and perception by others? What would happen if there were no such sorting, and thus, students did not have these labels placed upon them? Cheryl From ushit_k at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 16:19:57 2005 From: ushit_k at yahoo.com (ushit_k) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:19:57 -0000 Subject: Themes in the HP series ( Was: Secrecy (Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137809 Cheryl: > Any other thoughts on themes in the HP books? To add to the themes covered in the books. I think that there are major political issues, whose resolution are deeply moral. 1. Use of Power. The wizarding populations with respect to the muggles are superhero's that can attack/torment with impunity. Defense of muggles is one of the principles of the anti Voldemort group. The proper use of magic is taught at Hogwarts, and this is a lesson that Voldemort was never able to learn. The victory of Voldemort's group would mean that all the muggle protection laws and their enforcement would vanish. 2. Inclusiveness. According to the pure bloods, mere magical ability is not enought for one to be a part of the wizarding community. The purity of blood is to be sole criterion by which one is to be a judged. Laws are to be applied according to the purity of blood. Again this is in contrast to the anti Voldemort group. Hermione is a welcomed into the Weasley household, and her talent is recognized in Hogwarts. 3. Use of Dark Magic. I would say that here the principle of restraint is at work. Dark Magic confers great powers on one. But the cost is seemingly slight, loss of one's soul. One's mental ability, one's magical power are not negated. What is lost? The soul, loss of which seems to have no consequences in life. Still, the use of the dark magic is abhorred and shunned. (One of the reasons I liked HBP, is that, JKR, finally tells us, exactly why the dark arts are dark.) 4. Shades of Evil (badness?). Characters like, Lockhart, Rita Skeeter, Umbridge, while not being DE (as far as we know), never the less are, quite immoral and self seeking. The good guys fight amongst themselves and have major differences of opinion. None of this detracts from degree of commitment to opposing Voldemort. Victory in the Wizarding Civil War would mean that the structure of the wizard-world would be decided. Given that the civil war is primarily ideological in nature, propaganda seems to be given short shrift. UK. From racket at club-internet.fr Tue Aug 16 14:49:32 2005 From: racket at club-internet.fr (racket at club-internet.fr) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:49:32 +0200 Subject: Anothe Snape Question? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137810 Brotherjib: >I was wondering if >anyone can remember anywhere in the books where Snape is civil to Harry >in this manner? Julie: I don't remember any at this moment. The only thing coming to me it non a civil scene betwen them but the moment in Umbridge's office when Harry try to make Snape understand that Sirius is in danger. At this moment they have the same goal. Julie. From docmara at comcast.net Tue Aug 16 13:46:34 2005 From: docmara at comcast.net (docmara1) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:46:34 -0000 Subject: Voldy's Blunder (was: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137811 > Jason: > I agree with you Jen. I'd go further to say that Voldemort also made > the mistake of taking "the flesh of a servant freely given" from a man > that owes his life to Harry Potter. I wonder whether this too will play > a part in Voldemort's down fall..."Wormtail, did you neglect to tell me > that you owe your worthless, pathetic life to Harry Potter? > Crucio!"...dunno, does that bond transfer with the flesh? We shall see > in book 7 I guess.... > So interesting, really, that VM derives his power (flawed though it's probably going to turn out to be) through force and coersion. "Bone of the father" taken from the grave of the man he killed in cold blood; "Flesh of the servant freely given" except what exactly would happen to Wormtail if he refused? Harry gets his power through the really freely given support and help he gets from his friends. I really love the idea of there being magical expression of those relationships -- the debt from Wormtail being a possibility I hadn't considered.(that debt existing because Harry was merciful -- not blindly bent on revenge but instead saw Wormtail as a person who would be 'murdered' and didn't want his father's friends to be murderers -- think of all the subtleties there! :)) Mara (who's getting a little more used to posting on HPfGU but realizes that she doesn't have anything really interesting to add most of the time) From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 16 18:05:37 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:05:37 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137812 Cheryl writes: > I think the house system is, overall, a divisive tool and hope it is > elimitated from Hogwarts at the end of book 7. People have many > different characteristics, despite their house, and seem to be > sorted into houses based on what the Sorting Hat determines to be > their primary qualities. However, the effect might be a self- > fulfilling prophecy. After all, everyone "knows" Slytherins are bad, > slimy, self-serving, and ambitions using any means to achieve their > ends, everyone "knows" Gryffindors are brave, etc... and Slytherins > are all grouped together in a house with similar types which might > only bring out the worst in them. Yes, a person's characteristics > determine which house they are sorted into, but might also a > student's house affect their development, their behaviour, their > self-perception and perception by others? What would happen if > there were no such sorting, and thus, students did not have these > labels placed upon them? > > Cheryl houyhnhnm: I have felt that way all along. If I were teacher at Hogwarts, I think I'd be secretly wishing something would happen to the hat. I've also been confused by Rowling's one-dimensional portrayal of house characteristics, especially in the light of what she said about houses representing the four elements. Then we should see both good and bad expressions of their essential natures among the students of all four houses. Maybe the hat *has* been made into a horcrux. What if it has been screening for potential Death Eaters, rather than sorting students correctly on the basis of the predominant qualities of their natures? From lynnheath at rogers.com Tue Aug 16 13:04:31 2005 From: lynnheath at rogers.com (heathrawlings) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:04:31 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137813 > Marianne S: > In the pensieve scene where Tom Riddle is asking Slughorn about > Horcruxes, doesn't he already have the ring on his hand? I think even > Harry noticed it in the scene. I interpreted that to mean Tom had > the ring and had performed the murders, but just hadn't made > it a horcrux yet. I further believe, based on Slughorn's words in the > UNmodified memory, that a horcrux is an object created with a spell > immediately after a murder. Since Voldemort needed to use a spell > to create a horcrux, I think that is yet another proof that Harry and/or > his Scar cannot be one. > Slughorn notices the ring when he sees Dumbledore and he knows the jig is up - that's why he knows instantly that Harry is after his memory when he comes to him - he saw that DD had the ring TR had when he was given the horcrux information, and he sees the crack in it. He knows then that TR took his lessons to heart and made the ring into a horcrux and that DD has found out and has broken one of the horcruxes and that he'll be after the rest. I see him as resigning himself to his fate on behalf of good and agreeing to go to Hogwarts, not to play a huge part necessarily, but because seeing the ring (and Harry) remind him of the role his has however unwittingly played in LV's rise and he knows it's the least he can do to accept DD's request to return to Hogwarts. Heathrawlings. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 17:16:11 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:16:11 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137814 Valky wrote: > I know this diverts from canon, but I have this incredible hunch that > Snape became intensely curious about these defenses Harry possessed, > which were, *shock Gasp*, better than his! Ceridwen: Ooh! Tell me more! Valky again: > A lot of wild speculating but it was fun.. Oh yeah, that would > probably explain why he made Harry go through James and Sirius old > detention cards. If the key to Harry's defense was people he loves > then it would be appropriate to attack Sirius' memory in order to > invoke Harry to defend him internally. Kind of makes sense. So how > would we find out about that, well I suppose Snape would tell Harry, > Thankyou, you helped me keep some of the best secrets I have ever > needed to keep. Maniacal laughter .. Ceridwen: I love maniacal laughter. I like your take and will be going back over those scenes again to see if I can see it, too. I've caught some discussion of the punishment cards, that Snape probably didn't get caught, it was some sort of put-down once again against James and Sirius. But, yes, why would Snape have to remain in the room if all Harry was doing was catching up on boring paperwork? People do keep going back to the Occlumancy lessons, maybe this is why. Ceridwen, who can't get her fingers to hit the right keys the first time around. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Aug 16 18:09:09 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:09:09 -0000 Subject: Harry is a Powers!Horcrux - Was Re: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > A very excited Saraquel, is trying to work out, if what I think about > the powers situation is correct, will Harry end up having to sacrifice > his magical powers in order to defeat Voldemort? Geoff: But are you therefore suggesting that Harry only has powers which he got from Voldemort and if he gets at them, Harry will be powerless? I don't think I buy into that one. From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 16 06:33:39 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (clementine .) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:33:39 +1000 (EST) Subject: Ron, Xander, and the Useless Best Friend In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050816063340.75331.qmail@web42209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137816 prep0strus wrote: I haven't gotten all the way through Buffy yet, but I've heard some of what happens... and I just hope JKR gives Ron more in her last installment than poor maligned Xander got. Clementine: I don't know if you've gotten to the end of series four yet, but don't forget - Xander is the heart. He's the courage, he'll go wherever Buffy goes. We can see this at the end of book seven in Ron when he tells Harry that they're going to Godric's Hollow with him. No questions about it. Clementine. From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Aug 16 18:00:08 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:00:08 -0000 Subject: Different interpretations of the canon. WAS: Do the math In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137817 Pippin wrote: > > But I think this is like the Shipping Wars of yore. People fix on > their notion of the One True Snape and if canon doesn't bear them > out, well then, canon must be faulty. Could be, certainly. > And maybe Aesop's fox was right and the grapes were sour after all, > at least for that particular fox. De gustibus... > I think you are probably right about that, Pippin. The problem is that canon can legitimately be read and interpreted to fit a number of different views at this point. I really don't think anyone's arguments hold a great deal of water, since we just don't know enough. Given that, all we've got left to fall back on is our own reading of what would be an appropriate and satisfying end to the Snape arc -- and thus we fall back onto radically subjective measures of literature, good writing, and even moral propriety. That's life and there is absolutely no way to avoid it. No matter how this comes out, there are going to be a lot of angry and dissatisfied people, as in the case of the Shipping Wars. And these angry and dissatisfied people will have every right to find the outcome poor and badly written. From their standpoint, they are entirely correct and have every right to say so. There are no objective standards of writing or literature, despite the conventions that claim otherwise among some groups. Writing is fundamentally about connecting with your readers on multiple levels - intellectual, emotional, moral, and spiritual. Good writing, bad writing, effective writing are all relative judgments that hold water only for particular people at particular times. Whatever JKR does, as in the case of her last two books, it will be both (genuinely) good writing and bad writing, effective and ineffective, well-crafted and contrived, persuasive and not persuasive. And that is the way it has to be. When the book comes out, everyone will put down their money and make up their own minds. With this book, as with all books, as long as we are using Latin slogans, it will be Caveat Emptor followed, in many quarters, by Sic Transit Glorias Mundi (at least so far as JKR's reputation is concerned). To quote in yet another language, c'est la vie (or perhaps more appropriatly, c'est la guerre). Lupinlore From estelle_clements at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 16 18:25:47 2005 From: estelle_clements at yahoo.ca (estelle_clements) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:25:47 -0000 Subject: Why couldn't Lily Love Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137818 I've been reading "Harry Potter For Grown Ups" posts for ages and I have to say I've seen some really great theories on here. I am curious however; I've seen a large number of posts with the idea that Snape could have been in love with Lily, but almost nothing on the subject of Lily loving Snape. Lily loved everybody, I don't think it would be so far fetched to think that she could see beyond someone's exterior and care for who they were, rather, I'd expect her to go after someone a little unusual. Opposites attract? We know from Lupin in movie 3 that "Not only was she a singularly gifted witch, she was also an uncommonly kind woman. She had a way of seeing the beauty in others, even and, perhaps, most especially, when that person could not see it in themselves." That seems like a very leading statement to me. JK has said that Snape was loved by someone, and that that made him more culpable. I think that, of all the people we've met, the most likely person to be capable of loving someone like Snape- would be Lily. She is incredibly kind, she sees good in others- especially if it's often overlooked by others, she understands being different (a witch in a muggle home), and she's gifted at potions. The idea that humans seldom do what is good for them is a truth we hear DD mention. I think it very likely that although Snape could have potentially had a happy relationship with someone, but his Slytherin ambition would win out and he'd prefer to take the most "ambitious" root in life. He is who he is, ambition is his nature. I think by the time he realized he might have wanted to change who he was, it was a bit late- Lily was dead. (or at least, already moved on with Potter.) And, although I can't back this up with canon- there's something very human and real to me about a good, kind person falling for someone who is dark and seemingly unhappy. I don't know if it's like the need to bring happiness into that person's life, that opposites attract, or that kind people who have strong intellects see and wish to bring out someone's true potential. It just seems like something that you see frequently in life. There's something else that bothers me about the Lily/Snape relationship as well. We know that Lily is this extremely kind person, with this wonderful heart, and yet, when Snape calls her a mudblood, she has no problem throwing his nickname back at him. I think that shows a certain amount of familiarity with someone. Lily's NEVER been painted as cruel- she's not the kind of person who repays hate with hate. It seems like it would have been more in character for her to say something like "I'm sorry you feel that way." And just walk off Was she merely teasing? Or was she acting out of hurt feelings? He kept rejecting her and so she lashed out a bit? Interesting perhaps that she says to James, "I don't want YOU (italized) to make him apologise you're as bad as he is." Does she mean, she doesn't want James to make him because she can't stand James, or does she mean she wants Severus to treat her a certain way of his own accord because she wants to know that they have mutual respect? That he maybe didn't mean it- or she knew/hoped he didn't. We also know that Lily and James didn't get together until their last year at Hogwarts. One wonders if there wasn't some sort of catalyst for this. Did Lily discover that Snape had become a death eater? That he couldn't be turned from his path? Did James, who had grown up and perhaps fought against the Death Eaters (or possibly exposed Snape?) seem like a far better choice? I think it highly possible that James could have exposed Snape as a follower of Voldemort. It's been beaten home several times that the relationship between James and Snape is a major factor- it always comes up! Snape HATED James. Why James? It was Sirius that played the prank. Snape loathes/d Sirius, but its James he hated. Why? I think book 7 will shed a lot of light on the last 2 years of their schooling, particularly what it is that put Lily and James together. Harry's parents are majorly important- but Snape is clearly up to his neck in it as well. I'm not suggesting Lily wandered around all starry-eyed and pining for Snape- that's really not her style. You can love someone and continue to love them even if they don't return the feeling, and I'm not talking about crazy stalkers, I mean just caring for someone's well being and hoping that they will be well. Nor am I suggesting that there wasn't also obvious chemistry between Lily and James, clearly there was. Hope I'm not over-romantizing here, then again, maybe I hope I am. Estelle. From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 16 18:34:31 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:34:31 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137819 nrenka: > Good!Snape would also have been keeping up something of a front > towards those of Voldemort's supporters who were free, no? That's > always been one postulated reason for his showy nasty behavior to a > young Harry Potter, being as Voldemort was not back and active when > Harry arrived at school. If we have a Self-Interested!Snape, >playing both sides as best he can, he's not under the same kind of >strain as your committed Evil!Snape. houyhnhnm: Right! So why don't we ever see Snape shmoosing the good guys (if he's trying to fool them), when he can be smooth as silk with the DEs. nrenka: > I can't quite find all the canon to match, but I'm under the > impression that everyone else is having trouble making the timeline > for Snape's teaching at Hogwarts, defection, and everything else > match up exactly. This could be 'ooh, maths', it could be a case > where it works if you tweak it one way (but without cold hard > evidence), or it could be deliberate. houyhnhnm: I think the math[s] is pretty straightforward. Wihtin a very short space of time, Trelawney tells Umbridge that she has been at Hogwarts for 16 years and Snape says he's been there 14 years. This means Snape has to have been hired by Dumbledore at least two years after the prophecy was made. So Snape is coming to apply for a job at Hogwarts as a real Death Eater, under Voldemort's orders so he can spy for LV. He happens to arrive just when Trelawney is there for the divination position, listens at the keyhole, overhears part of the prophecy and reports back to Voldemort. Two years pass. Something turns Snape against Voldemort--probably it is more than one thing (I suspect Snape becomes disillusioned with LV himself), but could include LVs plan to assassinate the Potters and Snape's life-debt to James Potter. He goes back to Dumbldore, offers to turn spy, and Dumbledore gives him a job at Hogwarts as the potions master. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 16 18:52:44 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:52:44 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137820 -Nora: > Good!Snape would also have been keeping up something of a front towards those of Voldemort's supporters who were free, no? That's always been one postulated reason for his showy nasty behavior to a young Harry Potter, being as Voldemort was not back and active when Harry arrived at school. If we have a Self-Interested!Snape, playing both sides as best he can, he's not under the same kind of strain as your committed Evil!Snape. Pippin: Yes, he might have to go around saying things like "I only hope Dumbledore doesn't make any trouble." He might want to project some tension with Dumbledore. But the real die hard supporters of Voldemort, the only ones who would give any thought to Snape's loyalties, are in Azkaban or keeping deep cover themselves. They're not in a position to investigate Snape's loyalties the way Dumbledore is, with the possible exception of Quirrell!mort and Fake!Moody. Both of them conclude that Snape is not an ally. Both Evil Snape and Outforhimself Snape have to fool all the people all the time, for sixteen years. Good Snape can count on Dumbledore's support, knowing that Dumbledore understands he has to maintain his cover. OFHS!Snape must constantly fear he will give too much away. Who do you think has the better chance of success? Nora: > This is, of course, assuming that Dumbledore is correct in his > assertion that Snape switched sides *at great risk to Snape*. If > Snape had been sent by Voldemort initially (as he asserts to Bellatrix in ch. 2; is he lying or not?), then there is no such great danger, and quite possibly no initial ideological motivation. Pippin: Huh? Whether his motive was ideological or opportunistic, if Snape betrayed Voldemort in truth and not in seeming, he was at great risk if discovered, whether Voldemort initially ordered him to feign his defection or not. Without knowing what it was that really convinced Dumbledore that Snape had changed sides, or when it happened, it's impossible to say when Snape's conversion took place, if at all. But if it happened before Voldmort's downfall, as Dumbledore believes it did, then it seems Snape's motives can not have been entirely opportunistic. Unless you postulate that Voldemort ordered Snape to genuinely leave the Dark Side... that's novel, certainly. But it hardly seems in character for Voldemort. Nora: > I can't quite find all the canon to match, but I'm under the > impression that everyone else is having trouble making the timeline > for Snape's teaching at Hogwarts, defection, and everything else > match up exactly. This could be 'ooh, maths', it could be a case > where it works if you tweak it one way (but without cold hard > evidence), or it could be deliberate. > Pippin: The cold hard evidence is that Harry ignored or forgot what Dumbledore said in the pensieve. Dumbledore is quite plain in his testimony to the Wizengamot. "he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk." And he's quite plain in his statement to Harry. "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason he returned--" Snape gives the year but not the month that he started at Hogwarts, and a lot of us assumed that it had to be post-October 31, because Sirius didn't know he was teaching there. But Sirius had other concerns than keeping himself informed about Snape or the Hogwarts faculty. That part is indeed tweakable. But this is what Harry tells McGonagall. "Then Snape told Dumbledore that he hadn't realized what he was doing, he was really sorry he'd done it, sorry that they were dead." That's a direct contradiction of what Harry himself observed Dumbledore saying in the pensieve. Now maybe it was Jo's mistake and maybe it was Harry's but the contradiction is not speculation, it's canon. Nora: > I'll still be waiting to read your thematic revaluation of Lupin when he's not one of the prime factors for active evil, Pippin. :) Pippin; And I shall be waiting to hear yours if he is. : ) Pippin From mrsewp at bestweb.net Tue Aug 16 18:55:39 2005 From: mrsewp at bestweb.net (Elizabeth Catherine) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:55:39 -0000 Subject: repeating courses at Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137821 Hello all, While reading Chapter 15 with my kids I picked up on something that did not catch my eye in my first solo reading and was hoping for some insight. I don't recall seeing this discussed to date. On page 324 of HBP, US edition, Snape says to Draco: "If your friends Crabbe and Goyle intend to pass their Defense Against the Dark Arts OWL this time around, they will need to work a little harder than they are doing at pres-" (Malfoy cuts him off). My questions: Are students allowed to retake OWLs for passing grades and if so, do they have to repeat the year or just the exam? Would there be any incentive to do so? I'm wondering about Harry and History of Magic when he had the vision of Sirius... If this is not standard practice, is Snape just doing this for Slytherins as my nine year old suggested? Does Dumbledore know? On a related note, if the exams are postponed at the end of HBP, what are the thoughts on what the OWL and NEWT students will have to do to make them up? Thanks, Liz From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 23:39:32 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:39:32 -0000 Subject: Why would Snape want the DADA position? (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137822 Ceridwen: I'm not sure if this is post number three for me, or number four. If it's four, I apologize and promise to bang my head repeatedly against the kitchen wall. justcarol wrote: > Then, after changing sides and spying for Dumbledore "at great > personal risk," he applied again, having been sent by Voldemort as > a spy but having revealed his true loyalties to Dumbledore and was > given the position of Potions master.... Ceridwen: I'm snipping down to an idea, but it's so hard, the post was very good! justcarol: > After Voldemort's fall, Snape reapplied for the DADA position > repeatedly, yet he could not have failed to see that the jinx (or > curse) on the position was no mere rumor among the students. *(snip)* > Maybe repeatedly applying for it was part of his cover as that was > the position he had originally been sent by Voldemort to apply for, > but surely he didn't really want it? *(snip)* > Carol, noting that the villain of the book is Voldemort, not Snape, > and all the characters, including Dumbledore and Snape, are caught > in Voldemort's web Ceridwen: Duly noting that the characters are caught in Voldemort's web, which is indicative of the point. If Voldemort placed a curse on the DADA position, why would he send his own man in there to take it? Unless the curse (or hex) can only be broken by one of his loyal followers applying for and receiving the position? I'm not counting Fake!Moody here, since Crouch jr. didn't apply for the position and win it himself. If there wasn't something significant about the rotating DADA spot, then why make it such a noticeable thing in the books? One reason might be for comic relief as an aside to showing how desperate Voldemort is to get inside the castle. Could be. But I don't think so. When 'his man' has the post, he doesn't use that plant, but another one, a student he might hope will die, to affect the DEs' entry. Has Snape gotten the item LV wants to use as a horcrux? Because Voldemort *apparently* didn't come in with his people to get it and use it himself. What's the big deal about getting his own man in there? What's the point? Sorry for getting so wound up. What I want to ask is twofold, it seems: First, can the curse/hex on the DADA position only be broken by the outright hiring of Voldemort's man? (If so, then the curse is not yet broken, maybe that tells LV more than anything else could have?) and second, Why did Voldemort want one of his people in that position? Just to tweak Dumbledore? To lead likely candidates for the Dark Mark into the fold while giving false info to students who might fight back? To get the last horcrux item for LV's collection? Ceridwen, who hasn't thought it out well enough to type it yet, but hoping someone'll understand. From docmara at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 23:49:26 2005 From: docmara at comcast.net (docmara1) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:49:26 -0000 Subject: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" -- Attachment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137823 Jen Reese wrote: > > Why did Merope die? Ceridwen: > She wouldn't use magic, not to eat, to find suitable accomodations, > or to get medical assistance of some form or another. > > Maybe she didn't think she deserved it.... So, I think that she > despondently refused to help herself eat better, live better, and > get the best medical attention she could, which she could have done > through magical means. Mara: I see Merope as someone who sees herself as essentially helpless. She had a brief moment when it occurred to her that she could use magic, but that didn't get her the relationship that she so longed for -- magic might have felt false to her. I imagine that Tom would have thought of himself as magic in some way (before DD's arrival) and fantasized that *real* magic prevents death -- hence, his mother couldn't have been magic or she wouldn't have died. It's as if he spends his entire life trying to make that old fantasy true. Jen: > > I don't know how it will happen, but somehow Voldemort is making > > Harry impossible to kill by his own hands. And everything that > > came after Voldemort's decision about the prophecy,i.e, Lily's > > sacrifice, the blood charm, Sirius' sacrifice (?) etc. all make > > Harry even stronger. Voldemort hasn't got a chance ;). Ceridwen: > If it goes as outlined above, then Harry is being magically armed > with quite an arsenal. ...His parents' contribution, and if > correct, something from Ron in SS/PS, something from Cedric in GoF, > and now something from Dumbledore. (Maybe something from Ginny in > CoS?) And something from Sirius beyond the Black estate, from > OotP. I can't think of anything from PoA.... Mara: I love this idea -- it mirrors a person's development over time. I wonder if what Harry got from POA is the experience of feeling mercy or compassion for someone who has hurt him. This may come in handy in book 7... > > Jen, thanking Mara for a really great post that got her brain in > > gear today. > Ceridwen, adding to that thanks, to both. Nice to be here :) Mara From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 16 19:55:01 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:55:01 -0400 Subject: Greyback Message-ID: <003d01c5a29c$641a24c0$61fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137824 aussie says:- More than Voldemort, Greyback is set up to be the most destestable, repulsive creature in Harry's world. - The fear in Blotts face at the mention of Ferir Greyback's name. - Killing a 5 year old child - Purposefully positioning himself near young children before loosing control of himself on a full moon - Attacking a person in a cannibalistic way while not having an induced state to use as an excuse Harry can kill LV, but throw Greyback to Norbert as a light snack. N )\ \ / /( O )-(0^^0)-( R )/ \\// \( B (oo) E_______________oOo___''___oOo________________ R T If ever you are going to bring Norbert back in, Jo, this guy screams out to be his victim. CathyD: I couldn't agree more. Greyback, IMO, is 100 times worse than LV. Just the thought of him makes my skin crawl. That scene on the tower where he's picking his teeth and say's he can do DD for "afters"...and you realize, later, what he's picking out of his teeth is Bill Weasley. Oh...my.... Just disgusting. Worse than Infiri, worse than Dementors.....ack! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ShylahM at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 19:57:17 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (Shylah) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:57:17 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry on his own and 1-D Snape? (was Re: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <403e946f05081612575b93bf61@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137825 > Blue-eyed Lily wrote: > > Huge snip > > And while thinking about this, I found that my > internal spotlight of interest shifted from Snape and his intentions > to DD instead, wondering just who was DD, the man, that he could make > such a colossal blunder. > > Up to now, DD has been pretty one-dimensional, as any good Goodness > Personified character should be, although we got more glimpses of DD's > personality in HBP than in the past, and he is very definitely human. > JKR indicated in the LC/MN interview that we would be learning a lot > more about DD in Book 7, and my sense was that that knowledge would be > pivotal to the final resolution of the series. > > So perhaps the path the storyline will take will be that contrary to > expectations, Snape will turn out to be rather one-dimensional after > all, and that it's actually the usually one-dimensional Super Good > Guy, DD, who's the most complicated and interesting character. That would > certainly be a switch! Would it be enough to satisfy those of us > yearning for Reformed!Snape? I don't know, but if anyone could > do it, it would be JKR! > > Blue-eyed Lily > Tanya now. Snape, it does look bad for him now, but I am remaining neutral, fully expecting a twist or two before the end. Dumbledore. I was thinking about this yesterday. Is he so wrong to trust people? Sure, on the surface that all came to a sticky end with Snape, but to me this is what sets him apart from LV. Trust and distrust. What I cannot get a handle on is that Dumbledore was so easily fooled. He gave Snape a double wammy. First in GOF, then gave him the DADA. As one who has been studying LV for that long, he would know what he was setting him up for. Not that he is to blame or anyhing. But I expect that he knew Snape would be spending his final year as a teacher, regardless of what happened. Dumbledore's arranging with the Dursley's at the beginning is strange too. But I like to think, even though it ended bad, that Dumbledore had the right idea that trust and the benefit of the doubt is more powerful on a person's character than LV's idea of the big stick and dire threats. Snape would know that Dumbledore trusted him. It's been declared enough. Whatever his thoughts were at the tower scene, the fact remains that he has killed the only person in the world that ever offered that level of trust. Working for LV is the complete opposite. If Snape suddenly realised that the good side was going down with Dumbledore in that state, and he made a final decision on what was best for him, then I half expect that the knowledge of his choice would possibly eat away at him as to what he threw away. This could manifest in the most interesting circumstances. Providd of course he has a conscience. But that is a whole different topic. Tanya From Nanagose at aol.com Tue Aug 16 20:14:42 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:14:42 -0000 Subject: chills (was Re: Anothe Snape Question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137826 potioncat wrote: > "Several > scenes gave me chills. Fans will think it was intentional > foreshadowing of the next books..."(parphrase of JKR comment about \ > PoA!Movie) Brothergib: > Interesting! I thought the foreshadowing was the protective actions > of Snape towards HRH you mentioned. And possibly Lupin's warm words > with respect to Lily! > Brothergib Christina: I agree on both accounts, particularly since JKR has since said that Lupin was quite fond of Lily. He really seems the like Marauder that Lily would warm up to first. We know that Lupin was a prefect, and I think Lily probably was too and they got to know each other that way. Also...Fred's (George's?) comment to Ron (paraphrased): "Let's walk you off the astronomy tower and see how you feel?" The line that REALLY gave me chills was from Lupin to Snape (in the shrieking shack): "Severus, please." *shiver shiver* And of course there was the little tidbit with Hermione grabbing Ron's hand. :) Christina From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 16 20:25:43 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:25:43 -0000 Subject: The "Tries-to-be-good-but-fails!Snape" Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137827 I keep reading all the Snape theories and I thought it was about to post my own. It's not an ESE!Snape theory or a Good!Snape theory, it's more along the lines of Snape-tried-to-be-good-but-wasn't-brave- enough theory. So here I go... I think that Snape did honestly feel remorse and want to leave the Death Eaters and join the good side during the first war. I don't know whether DDD really gave Harry the full reason behind it, but I think it was what Snape honestly felt, so DD was not a fool. The reason Snape never hurt Harry (during the 6 years in which he had easy access) was because he was on the side of good and he planned to stay that way. And when he was became the spy for both sides, he still was really with the Order of the Phoenix. But then the Unbreakable vow came up. I think Snape actually does care about Draco and Narcissa, and when she asked him to make the vow to watch over Draco, he agreed. Then she added the 3rd part (kill DD if Draco can't), and it was too late to back out. So, then he told Dumbledore about the plan of Draco trying to kill Dumbledore this year, but he left out the vow. Not because he was ESE, but because he was too ashamed to admit what he had done. The year goes by. Finally, he runs into the Astronomy Tower and there's Draco holding out his wand, the other Death Eaters saying he's not able to do it, so Snape has a choice. Either (1) he kills Dumbledore or (2) he doesn't and openly shows which side he's on, and dies himself because he breaks the vow. And, as he rationalizes it, Dumbledore would die either way. So he kills him and justifies it with the idea that DD would die anyway, and this way, at least they both don't die. Aside: As for DD's pleading, I think DD was pleading more for Snape's soul than his own life. It was more of a "Severus please... don't let me have been wrong about you" or "...don't do this - you're better than that." So, when Harry attacks him, he doesn't kill him because he feels remorse about what he did - he killed the one person that believed the best of him, that always trusted him, and loved him unconditionally. And when Harry calls him a coward, he gets really upset because it's true. He was too much of a coward to die for DD (as DD would have done for him). As for Snape's future, I think in the next book, he will definitely do something big to redeem himself, and then die. With this view, Snape is not completely evil a la Voldemort, but he's no saint either. He's just too cowardly to die for someone else. Rachael From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 16 20:41:03 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:41:03 -0000 Subject: chills (was Re: Anothe Snape Question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137828 > > Christina: > > The line that REALLY gave me chills was from Lupin to Snape (in the > shrieking shack): "Severus, please." *shiver shiver* Potioncat: I didnt' catch that one, did catch the Astronomy Tower comment (snipped) but couldn't remember who said it. Here's another one: The "playing with your chemistry set" comment from Black to Snape made most of us groan. Anyone who knows anything about Pureblood wizards would know they wouldn't play with chemistry sets. Well...it's not so unlikely now, is it, that little Severus had one? Potioncat From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 20:43:41 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:43:41 -0000 Subject: Anothe Snape Question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > In PS/SS the film, Snape wishes Harry good luck before his first > Quidditch match. This scene is not in the book, and I was wondering if > anyone can remember anywhere in the books where Snape is civil to Harry > in this manner? > Well, Snape seemed pretty impressed with Harry performing Sectumsempra! He was more interested in finding out where he learned it and flattering him (in his own Snapey way) than with yelling at him for almost killing Malfoy! He didn't give him detention for attacking Malfoy, but for lying about his potions book! What about the scene where he tells Harry that he is going to teach him occlumency? His nastiness is focused on Sirius instead. Or there's the one time that Harry successfully repelled his Legilimens spell... I seem to think that Snape gave him a half- compliment then. That's the closest I can come! - davenclaw From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 20:55:09 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:55:09 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > > I think the math[s] is pretty straightforward. Wihtin a very short > space of time, Trelawney tells Umbridge that she has been at Hogwarts > for 16 years and Snape says he's been there 14 years. This means > Snape has to have been hired by Dumbledore at least two years after > the prophecy was made. > > So Snape is coming to apply for a job at Hogwarts as a real Death > Eater, under Voldemort's orders so he can spy for LV. He happens to > arrive just when Trelawney is there for the divination position, > listens at the keyhole, overhears part of the prophecy and reports > back to Voldemort. > > Two years pass. Something turns Snape against Voldemort--probably it > is more than one thing (I suspect Snape becomes disillusioned with LV > himself), but could include LVs plan to assassinate the Potters and > Snape's life-debt to James Potter. He goes back to Dumbldore, offers > to turn spy, and Dumbledore gives him a job at Hogwarts as the potions > master. Not quite. Unless I'm mistaken, during the pensieve seen in GoF where Karkaroff is naming names at his MoM trial, Dumbledore says that Snape became spy before LV fell. LV fell when he went after Harry. And we know from HBP that Snape came to DD when he realized that LV was going to kill the Potters. So Snape was basically on DD's side (supposedly) for two years before he became Potions master. I wonder what he was doing in that time? - davenclaw From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 21:01:00 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:01:00 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > Both Evil Snape and Outforhimself Snape have to fool all > the people all the time, for sixteen years. Good Snape can count on > Dumbledore's support, knowing that Dumbledore understands he > has to maintain his cover. OFHS!Snape must constantly fear he will > give too much away. > > Who do you think has the better chance of success? Oh, I don't know--I do know that someone whose name begins with P continually puts the emphasis on how damnably *good* of an actor Snape is, which becomes the trump card in all situations. Are you not going to give any mutation of Snape that, at least? :) My reading of OFHS!Snape is quite content to meld into being Good! Snape for the downtime; if not utterly sincere at heart, he's good enough to play the role. He didn't do anything too overt to stir distrust**, and DD trusts him. It might even be genuine enough to be easy to maintain, because he knows what a nice place to be that it is, and has no interest in the kind of faux-smoove games Lucius Malfoy is still wanting to play. Then, when Snape is sent back to Voldemort he begins playing a very dangerous and tempting role--this is when he has to start fooling everyone, all the time. > Pippin: > Huh? Whether his motive was ideological or opportunistic, if > Snape betrayed Voldemort in truth and not in seeming, he was at > great risk if discovered, whether Voldemort initially ordered him to > feign his defection or not. Well, yes. That's the *if* that I'm asserting we can no longer take as absolutely rock solid. I'm actually quite surprised to find myself questioning it, but I have the grounds to, now. > Without knowing what it was that really convinced Dumbledore > that Snape had changed sides, or when it happened, it's impossible > to say when Snape's conversion took place, if at all. But if it > happened before Voldmort's downfall, as Dumbledore believes it > did, then it seems Snape's motives can not have been entirely > opportunistic. The question is raised by this book whether Snape's conversion was ever genuine, at all. The scenario whereby Snape covertly sneaks over to Dumbledore, confesses all, and is from there on out utterly on Dumbledore's side is still eminently possible, but by no means the only option. I'm throwing out the idea of Snape having gone over to Dumbledore to play the penitent on Voldemort's orders (which is what Snape tells Bella), and here's where the path branches: 1. Snape converts to Dumbledore's side wholly. 2. Snape remains as Voldemort's agent, but DD thinks he's loyal to him. 3. Snape is a genuinely active agent for both sides, with no set preferance of loyalty to one or the other. Trying to be logically exhaustive here, we are. **I don't know what it's telling of, but the Order, when told of events by Harry (incomplete/mangled or not), is awfully quick to turn on Snape. That doesn't speak of any genuine trust between Snape and any other member of the Order--it all seems to have gone through Dumbledore, which is an utterly lousy model for trust. Meaningful? Probably. Meaning what? No clue. -Nora hums cheerfully and polishes a pair of Mary Janes From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 16 21:26:02 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:26:02 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prep0strus" wrote: > But he's not a nice > person, not a fair person, and not a person who stands for much that > Dumbedore stands for - but then, neither does Snape. When will we > see a TRULY good slytherin. Hickengruendler: I don't really agree. He might not be the nicest, he certainly was not nice to Marcus Belby anymore, once he realised that Marcus doesn't have any contact to his famous uncle, but he's also not really unpleasant. He for example doesn't insult anyone, the way Snape or Sirius, a Gryffindor, did. Sure, people realise who his favourites are. But I found him a particularly realistic character in this case. I had a music teacher like him in school. I didn't like him, because it was obvious, that he prefered the students who were in the school choir, but I do think he was nice enough to the rest as well, even if it was obvious that he didn't care for them. And I would call him fair. He is fair enough to give everyone a chance if he sees enough talent, no matter what the person's background or family is. Not a person, who stands for what Dumbledore stands for- well, maybe not. He certainly does not share every of Dumbledore's opinions. But who really does? They all have their flaws. At least Slughorn agrees with Dumbledore, that it is unimportant from which family someone is, or from which Hogwarts-House. And at least in the last point he's one of the very few characters who think so, and you could say that in this case he is much closer to Dumbledore than everyone named Potter or Weasley or Malfoy or Longbottom or Black is. prep0strus: > > I get the feeling the Houses are something that JKR got trapped in, > and don't really fit with what they've been described to be. Cedric > could be Gryffindor, Hermione could be Ravenclaw, Neville could be > Hufflepuff... but no one appealing could be in Slytherin. Hickengruendler: What about Harry? The Hat wanted to send him into Slytherin. Okay, Harry chose Gryffindor in the end. But nonetheless, as the Hat said, he would have done well in Slytherin. And even though it was meant as a contrast to Tom Riddle's choice, Harry still showed many Slytherin traits during the books, (as did Hermione, by the way), and many of them helped him in his adventures or even in his daily routine. From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 16 21:33:22 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:33:22 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137833 davenclaw: > So Snape was basically on > DD's side (supposedly) for two years before he became Potions > master. I wonder what he was doing in that time? houyhnhnm: If Snape had been teaching 14 years in the fall of 1995, then he started in the fall of 1981. The Potters were killed in the fall of 1981. We don't know exactly when the Potters were first targeted by Voldemort, but it couldn't have been before Harry was born--in July '80. Where do you get the two years? I think the confusion comes from people assuming that Snape only approached Dumbledore once. There is no evidence in text for that assumption and it makes no sense. At the same time (fall '95) that Snape has been teaching 14 years, Trelawney says she has been there 16 years. 1995 - 16 = 1979. If she is being accurate, then the prophecy was made as much as a year before Harry was born. One the other hand, the label on the sphere when the DAs see it (June, 1996) gives a date "of some sixteen years" earlier (1980). Maybe Trelawney had had a little too much sherry. But either way, the prophecy was made somewhere between a few months and a year before Harry was born. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 22:01:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:01:24 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137834 > >>Valky: > > It's just not Dumbledore to demand a UV, besides which, I just > can't get past the fact that during the scene with Snapes UV in > spinners End, the text draws an analogy to the coils of a snake > tying his hands. It's just seems too patently obvious that it's a > Worst of Slytherin type magic even if you don't see that its > completely in opposition with Dumbledore's creed of Choice and > Love. Betsy Hp: I completely agree that there's no way there's an Unbreakable Vow behind Dumbledore's trust of Snape. For one thing, an Unbreakable Vow speaks to a *lack* of trust on behalf of the one administrating the vow, and Dumbledore seems far too sure of his trust in Snape for it to be dependent upon a piece of magic. (Plus, as you point out, Valky, it most definitely goes against Dumbledore's personal creed.) Which begs the question, why *does* Dumbledore have such an "Iron- Clad" trust for Snape? > >>Valky: > AS to this Iron-Clad reason for trusting Snape. I am trying very > hard to dig in and uncover it at last, but the closer I get, the > more it seems to me that Dumbledore's Iron Clad reason didn't > include expecting Snape to behave himself and stay out of trouble. > In fact it actually seems to me that DD based his reason on the > guarantee, almost, that Sevvie *would* bury himself again. > Betsy Hp: Hmmm. I'm going to have to disagree with this theory, because it also limits the amount of trust Dumbledore would have for Snape. If Dumbledore merely "trusted Snape to be Snape" (to paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson in "Jackie Brown") then he's not really trusting Snape at all. And the evidence of the books points to Dumbledore trusting Snape possibly above all other Order members, IMO. It looks like Dumbledore shared the existence of the horcruxes with Snape. Something shared only with Harry, Ron and Hermione. That's a huge amount of trust to be giving out to someone Dumbledore thinks suffers from a "dark arts addiction" (Do we have any canon supporting the existence of that sort of malady, out of curiosity?) or a tendency to behave badly if left to his own devices. > >>houyhnhnm: > > The most character revealing scene, IMO, is during the first > > occlumency lesson. > > "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord," said > > Snape savagely. "Fools that wear their hearts proudly on their > > sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad > > memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily--weak > > people, in other words--they stand no chance against his powers!" > > Clearly, he is speaking of himself, with a passion and an > > honesty we don't see anywhere else. > >>Valky: > I agree he's referring to something in himself. > Betsy Hp: Me too! Actually (and this is where I start inching away from canon and so may well find myself stranded out on a shaky limb ) I wonder if Snape's motivation isn't based on a rather tragic love for Lily Evans. Perhaps his Worst Memory had little to do with his interaction with Sirius and James and everything to do with his interaction with Lily. Because HBP is full of hints that he and Lily may well have been friends. Probably secretly (hence the invention of the Muffliato spell) because of the enmity between their houses. And yet, we also know that Snape was looked on with interest by Lucius Malfoy, who is most certainly a bigot. At some point, I think Snape had to choose between Lily Evans and Lucius Malfoy (choose between being a Prince and being a Snape) and I think, based on him calling Lily a mudblood and her reaction to it, he chose poorly. The fact that Voldemort was willing to let Lily live suggests that perhaps Snape's love for Lily was known by Voldemort. (Could Voldemort have planned to use a love potion and gift Lily to Snape? Would JKR even write something like that?) And maybe it was that unrequited love that Voldemort used as a lever to recruite young Snape. (We know Voldemort isn't so big on giving his recruites a choice.) But we also know that Snape had defected to Dumbledore's side *before* the actual attack on the Potters but *after* Snape reported the half of the prophecy he'd heard. Perhaps Snape's realization that his intelligence was going to lead to Lily's death served as the wake-up call he needed. I think Snape realized that he had made a very bad choice in giving up on Lily and becoming a Death Eater. And I think it was this remorse that Dumbledore was referring to when he was hedging his way around Harry's direct question in HBP. And I think this is why Dumbledore trusted Snape so completely. Because Snape told Dumbledore exactly *why* he became a Death Eater in the first place, and also *why* he realized that he'd made a huge mistake. Perhaps Snape even went to Dumbledore in the first place in an attempt to make an amends (and possibly save Lily's life). I think having Snape's heart and soul (as it were) so entirely on display would have gone a long way towards convincing Dumbledore of Snape's total change of heart. And the incredibly personal reason for that change would also explain why Dumbledore kept that reason such a secret. Anyway, that's my theory. :) Betsy Hp From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Aug 16 22:09:39 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:09:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pervasive Mist from Dementors Breeding Message-ID: <8c.2d278e0b.3033be23@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137835 In a message dated 8/14/2005 11:22:59 AM Central Standard Time, 5682574 at sbcglobal.net writes: How do dementors breed? I don't believe we have been told in canon, have we? I had it in my head that they sucked the soul out of someone, and that created a new dementor, but now I think that's from fan fiction. Melissa: Around the timeof GOF's release JKR was asked how dementor's breed, this was the answer in this interview "Harry Potter author fields questions from junior journalists in Vancouver," Canadian Press, October 25, 2000 One young Canadian boy earlier asked her how Dementers breed. "I was just so pleased that he thought about it and pleased that I had the answer," Rowling told The Canadian Press. These evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but grow like a fungus where there is decay. Melissa. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 22:32:51 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:32:51 -0000 Subject: Snape, Trelawney, and Who's on First?? (WAS:Do the math) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137836 houyhnhnm: At the same time (fall '95) that Snape has been teaching 14 years, Trelawney says she has been there 16 years. 1995 - 16 = 1979. If she is being accurate, then the prophecy was made as much as a year before Harry was born. One the other hand, the label on the sphere when the DAs see it (June, 1996) gives a date "of some sixteen years" earlier (1980). Maybe Trelawney had had a little too much sherry. But either way, the prophecy was made somewhere between a few months and a year before Harry was born. Bookworm: Trelawney's exact words are "*Nearly* sixteen years." (OoP, Ch15). Snape very clearly and succinctly says, "Fourteen years." Now, I cannot see Snape exagerating the number of years, but can easily see Trelawney trying to pad her resume for Umbridge. Snape's answer was given just after the Hogs Head meeting, which was the first weekend in October, so Snape started teaching at Hogwarts before early October 1981. Since most teachers start at the beginning of the school year, I would suggest Snape did, too - he probably started September 1st, 1981. This last agrees with Dumbledore's statement that Snape "*rejoined* our side before Lord Voldeort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal reisk. He is *now* no more a Death Eater than I am." (GoF, Ch30) Now for Trelawney: at the end of OoP, Dumbledore told Harry about hearing the prophecy "On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago..." (OoP, Ch37) I think anyone who is familiar with Scottish weather will agree that statement could apply to almost anytime from September to May. This was made in June of '1996'; my personal image when reading this passage was that it was early spring, most likely sometime in March or April 1980. By the time Umbridge asked Trelawney, Sybill would have been there fifteen and a half years - easily stretched to 16 years. So the period between the prophecy and Snape's arrival at Hogwarts coul be as little as 18 months. For what it's worth... ;-) What *really* interests me is Dumbledore's statement in the Pensieve: Snape *rejoined* the good guys. This implies he had been on Dumbledore's side, went to Voldemort, then came back. In a very early interview, JKR said that when she wants to present information, Dumbledore and Hermione are the most likely characters to use. So if A=B, and "B" (Dumbledore is not a DE) is true, then "A" (Snape is not a DE) must also be true. If Snape had been on Dumbledore's side and left, then the question isn't what made him turn against Voldemort, but what caused him to switch sides To Voldemort in the first place. Ravenclaw Bookworm [Of course, the opposite must also be true - if Snape is a DE, then Dumbledore is too. But I realllly don't want to tackle that thought! ] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 16 22:46:14 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:46:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] chills (was Re: Anothe Snape Question?) Message-ID: <92.2d15d5a3.3033c6b6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137837 In a message dated 8/16/2005 10:34:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: Yes, that was my guess too before HBP came out. The family chose Prisoner of Azkaban as the movie for family movie night this week. I hadn't watched it in a while and the Buckbeak scene jumped out at me. ------------------------ Sherrie here: Buck...er, Witherwings... Was it really Snape he was attacking? Wasn't Draco there with Snape? What if he saw Draco - his old victim - and went after him, and Snape was just in the way? I think I have to reread that scene - in between scripts... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 23:09:02 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:09:02 -0000 Subject: Pervasive Mist from Dementors Breeding In-Reply-To: <8c.2d278e0b.3033be23@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/14/2005 11:22:59 AM Central Standard Time, > 5682574 at s... writes: > How do dementors breed? I don't believe we have been told in canon, > have we? I had it in my head that they sucked the soul out of > someone, and that created a new dementor, but now I think that's from > fan fiction. > > > Melissa: > > Around the timeof GOF's release JKR was asked how dementor's breed, this was > the answer in this interview "Harry Potter author fields questions from > junior journalists in Vancouver," Canadian Press, October 25, 2000 > > > One young Canadian boy earlier asked her how Dementers breed. > "I was just so pleased that he thought about it and pleased that I had the > answer," Rowling told The Canadian Press. > These evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but grow like a fungus where > there is decay. > Melissa. > > a_svirn: How do they breed? How about this: But with thy brawls thou hast disturb'd our sport. Therefore the winds, piping to us in vain, As in revenge, have suck'd up from the sea *Contagious fogs* [emphasis mine ? a_svirn]; which falling in the land Have every pelting river made so proud That they have overborne their continents: That rheumatic diseases do abound: And thorough this distemperature we see The seasons alter: the spring, the summer, The childing autumn, angry winter, change Their wonted liveries, and the mazed world, By their *increase*, now knows not which is which: *And this same progeny of evils comes >From our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original*[emphasis mine ? a_svirn] . From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 23:28:55 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:28:55 -0000 Subject: Question about the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137839 I thought it was more along the lines of Draco needed a place that NO one else would find. So the room made that available and did not allow anyone else to find it, when they were using it. If he found it while hiding something and Draco wasn't in there, it was only fulfilling Harry's requirement and not his curiosity on what Draco was up to. Chys From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 23:29:48 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:29:48 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137840 In the midst of all the discussions of ESE!Snape and whether Dumbledore is still alive, I have been rereading the books. I just reached the chapter "Detention with Dolores" in OOP, where Harry has been doing lines: "'Yeah, so do -- Harry, what's that on the back of your hand?' Harry, who had just scratched his nose with his free right hand, tried to hide it, but had as much success a Ron with his Cleansweep. 'It's just a cut -- it's nothing -- it's --'" "'I must not tell lies,' Harry wrote. The cut in the back of his right hand opened and began to bleed afresh." This would indicate that Harry is right handed, at least for writing. Yet on the book covers drawn by Mary Grandpre, Harry appears to be left handed. On the US cover of SS he is trying to catch the Snitch with his left hand. On the US covers of GOF, OOP and HBP he is holding his wand in his left hand. This does not have much to do with plot intricacies, but it is intriguing, nevertheless. Does anybody know the explanation? Merrylinks From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 23:31:13 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:31:13 -0000 Subject: Question: Power the DL knows not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137841 I was wondering if since this prophecy was being told before Harry was born, was he born with this 'power the dark lord knows not', or was it something he gained during his life? Chys From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 00:06:13 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:06:13 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses (was:Re: Slughorn a dead end topic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137842 Betsy Hp: I couldn't resist this post, and I'm taking you out of order here, Prep0strus, for orginizational reasons. > >>Prep0strus: > > I get the feeling the Houses are something that JKR got trapped > in, and don't really fit with what they've been described to be. > Cedric could be Gryffindor, Hermione could be Ravenclaw, Neville > could be Hufflepuff... but no one appealing could be in Slytherin. Betsy Hp: I totally suggest you check out this essay by Sister Magpie: http://www.livejournal.com/users/sistermagpie/98360.html#cutid1 In it she posits that the four last books in the series have been based on the four houses: PoA = Gryffindor, GoF = Hufflepuff, OotP = Ravenclaw, and HBP = Slytherin. She also points out that Ron has Hufflepuff tendencies (which feature in GoF), Hermione has Ravenclaw tendencies (which feature in OotP), and Harry has Slytherin tendencies (which he brings to the forefront in HBP). So there's your appealing Slytherin. :) I think JKR is suggesting that each house has a certain skill or strength, held by each member of the Trio, that will be needed to defeat Voldemort. Gryffindor bravery is certainly key, but it will also take loyalty, intelligence and cunning. Fortunately Harry and Ron and Hermione form a beautifully well-rounded crew. (I think this is further suggested by the houses being linked to the four elements. Each element is necessary in maintaining a stable structure.) > >>Prep0strus: > > When will we see a TRULY good slytherin. > Betsy Hp: In book 7. Okay, that's the smart-ass answer, but I think we saw some serious signs of good Slytherins (and I love that this is plural). Slughorn is an obvious choice. Sure, he's no saint, but he's no devil either. (And frankly, the Potterverse is pretty lacking in saints. Even Dumbledore has a few warts.) And he certainly seems to be on Harry's side. Draco is shaping up to be a very good candidate, IMO. His words with Dumbledore, his lowering of his wand, his disassociating from the other Death Eaters should have interesting repercussions in the next book. And, of course, if Snape is good, then he's very, very, good. So there's another candidate. Harry, himself, embraced his Slytherin side (appearently a little bit of his mother in him) and found it quite useful. He used it to help Ron out with his quidditch, and he used it to get the memory out of Slughorn. Frankly, I think Harry's own Slytherin-ness will come into play in the last book as well. As will Hermione's Ravenclaw-ness, and Ron's Hufflepuff-ness. Though I'm sure representatives of each house will also play some sort of part, even a minor one, in hunting down the Horcruxes, what with there being four horcuxes to be found and destroyed. Betsy Hp, who likes the four houses From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 00:17:02 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:17:02 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137843 Saraquel: Meanwhile in a parallel universe, where Snape is ESG! and Draco was never given the task to murder to DD, Harry is sitting opposite a revived Dumbledore. The locket lies open on the desk between them, the scrap of parchment unfolded next to it. Dumbledore is contemplating them, his elbows on the desk, with the tips of his fingers resting against each other. "But Professor, we've failed, it's not the real Horcrux," says Harry despondently. After a short pause, Dumbledore smiles, and looks at Harry over the top of his glasses. "You think so, Harry?" Harry looks puzzled. "Think again, Harry." "Are you saying that this is the real Horcrux?" "I am absolutely positive it is." "Then what about RAB?" "Well, that could be Really Any-Body." Harry is still looking puzzled. "Remember, Harry, Lord Voldemort's skill in persuading others to believe what he wants them to believe, and I rather think he has succeeded with you," says Dumbledore gently. "You mean," says Harry slowly, "that this is part of the protection of the Horcrux?" Dumbledore smiles encouragingly. "So in fact, this *is* the real Horcrux, but he has transfigured it to look like a fake horcrux and put that note in it to mislead anyone who found it?" "I rather think he has, Harry." So, I there you have it. RAB is *not* Regulus Black. No-one had to find the cave. That whiz-bang potion is Voldemort's. Harry has the real Horcrux!Locket. It's not important where the unopenable locket in Grimauld Place is, and the whole Mung thing is either a red herring or part of another plot thread. IMO, if it is relevant at all, Harry will finally track it down and find that it is no snake on it, which may prompt him to think again about the locket that he has. Also, according to DD, only Voldemort, DD and Harry (possibly Slughorn)know that Voldemort has made more than one Horcrux. The note reinforces the idea that there is only one horcrux out there, and if imaginary RAB had destroyed it, then whoever found the fake one, if they survived, would be tempted to try and kill Voldemort, thus breaking their cover and revealing themselves as his enemy. I think this might help solve the puzzle of the potion. But that needs thinking about It always puzzled me why JKR deliberately had both Harry and Dumbledore not have time to notice the locket. For me, as a reader, the discovery of the fake!horcrux did not sit well *after* DDs death. I was so blown out by his death, that I found the discovery of the Horcrux almost annoying in taking my attention away from it. But, now it makes sense to me, because DD would always have suspected the locket to be the real one and would have told Harry so. Opinions please! Saraquel Who in the cold light of morning is thinking her Big Bang Theory of Powers!Horcrux, turned out to be a bump in the night. But oh well, I feel somewhat compensated by sorting the locket out - to my satisfaction anyway. From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 17 01:44:51 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:44:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry is a Powers!Horcrux - Was Re: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43029693.4030703@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137844 Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" > wrote: > > A very excited Saraquel, is trying to work out, if what I think about > > the powers situation is correct, will Harry end up having to > sacrifice > > his magical powers in order to defeat Voldemort? > > Geoff: > But are you therefore suggesting that Harry only has powers which he > got from Voldemort and if he gets at them, Harry will be powerless? I > don't think I buy into that one. Geoff Kathy writes: If Harry figures out that maybe he has a piece of Voldemort's soul, maybe he could make a horcrux with Voldie's piece and then blast it into fragments. The trick would be getting the right piece. He would not have to commit a murder to make a split, he could just go ahead and get rid of Voldemort. What do you think??? KJ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 17 01:50:34 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 01:50:34 -0000 Subject: FILK: Wishing I Could See You Sneer Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137845 Before I offer my latest filk, I just want to inform more recent members that HP4GU has long been a filk-friendly site, and that literally hundreds of filks have made their debut on this group. I feel compelled to mention this because two years ago, after the release of OOP, we had new filks posted here almost every day for the next several months, whilst since HBP's release there have been very few filks posted here. So if you have a filk, feel free to post it here, and/or e-mail it directly to me. I usually update my site once a month or so, but through the end of August, I'm updating on a daily basis. But without any more further ado....... Wishing I Could See You Sneer Again To the tune of Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again, from Lloyd Webber's Phantom of the Opera Dedicated to Ginger (a sweet soul who never sneers - at least, not at me) THE SCENE: Before the tomb of ? yes, he's really dead, people, deal with it! ? Albus Dumbledore, HARRY shows that he is still a tad ticked over the recent unpleasantness HARRY: You have been my great tormentor You made yourself hated Then you slew My greatest mentor And you celebrated Wishing I could See you sneer again Wishing I could See you sneer I would erase Every trace Of it from ear to ear Wishing I was In your class again Hearing you say, "Call me sir!" You may assume A swift certain doom Is what you would incur Taking points And scathing comments All your condescension Are for you No longer weapons No more damned detentions! (During the instrumental bridge, HARRY looks up several spells in the library book that Hermione found titled "Magick Moste Evile", whilst taking copious notes) And what I'll shove Down in your throat Won't have an antidote! (HARRY performs the Sonorus Spell on himself so he can give justice to the spectacular climax) Wishing I could See you sneer again In a place you Cannot run Killing Voldy's My destiny You I'll do in For fun! Like your old buddy Said to "Kill the spare," If I ever detect You as a pair Let's have a Rerun .. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 17 01:56:19 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:56:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anothe Snape Question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43029943.4040802@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137846 davenclaw wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" > wrote: > > > In PS/SS the film, Snape wishes Harry good luck before his first > > Quidditch match. This scene is not in the book, and I was > wondering if > > anyone can remember anywhere in the books where Snape is civil to > Harry > > in this manner? > > > > Well, Snape seemed pretty impressed with Harry performing > Sectumsempra! He was more interested in finding out where he learned > it and flattering him (in his own Snapey way) than with yelling at > him for almost killing Malfoy! He didn't give him detention for > attacking Malfoy, but for lying about his potions book! > > What about the scene where he tells Harry that he is going to teach > him occlumency? His nastiness is focused on Sirius instead. > > Or there's the one time that Harry successfully repelled his > Legilimens spell... I seem to think that Snape gave him a half- > compliment then. > > That's the closest I can come! > > - davenclaw > Kathy writes: His absolutely most civil speech is in OotP, when Sibyll screams. Snape asks Harry "Did you see anything unusual on your way down here, Potter?" I think the scream distracted him and he forgot he was talking to Harry. KJ From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Wed Aug 17 01:58:37 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 01:58:37 -0000 Subject: Themes in the HP series ( Was: Secrecy etc.) with aside to BIC LIGHTER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137847 Cheryl: > > > Any other thoughts on themes in the HP books? Goodness, I think the list has missed the two main ones. Anarchist political practise - Dumbledore's Army, using people from three houses, so some anarchist social practise as well, also includes defending werewolves in society, SPEW and so forth. Revelation - exposing hidden things or people (Crouch Jr.), the animagi and the werewolf, Sirius as innocent, Quirrel as agent of Tom, location of Chamber of Secrets, Slughorn's fogged memory, Crouch Sr. as imperioed, the return of Voldemort, the history and personality of Voldemort, Hagrid's innocence, Tom's culpability, Snape's culpability (in the bar), the prophecy orb, Harry under the cloak, to Moody and Moody/Crouch and Albus, and so on and on and on, all going back to the Dursley's abusive treatment of Harry being exposed and overturned by the discovery of Harry as wizard. The truth will out, and Rowling certainly seems to be partisan about getting it out, doesn't she?!?! (How'd you guys miss this?) dan From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 17 02:13:21 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:13:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43029D41.1050503@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137848 davenclaw wrote: > Not quite. Unless I'm mistaken, during the pensieve seen in GoF > where Karkaroff is naming names at his MoM trial, Dumbledore says > that Snape became spy before LV fell. LV fell when he went after > Harry. And we know from HBP that Snape came to DD when he realized > that LV was going to kill the Potters. So Snape was basically on > DD's side (supposedly) for two years before he became Potions > master. I wonder what he was doing in that time? > > - davenclaw Kathy writes: My impression is that Sibyll was hired at the time of the prophesy. Snape was still in Voldemort's camp and passed on the prophesy. It would then have taken V. some time to determine what child was the prophesied danger. Harry was 15 months old when his parents were killed and Voldemort fell. We know that someone, possibly Snape, reported that there was a spy in the Order a year before Voldemort fell. We are also encouraged to believe that Snape, in some way tried to warn James about Sirius, Snape's suspect, and James refused to believe it. Snape may have tried to warn Lily. We don't know how long the Potters were in hiding before Wormtail turned them over to Voldemort. Sirius might have been their secretkeeper for a while until he decided it was safer to pick someone that Voldemort would never expect. Since Snape was teaching for fourteen years in OotP, when Harry is fifteen, we know that Snape started teaching when Harry was a year old give or take a month here or there. Three months later Voldemort was Vapormort. KJ From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 02:15:35 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:15:35 -0000 Subject: Why would Snape want the DADA position? (Was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: <007801c5a1ce$b9240e50$bb3a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137849 > Sherry wrote: > > i think that Snape would not have believed the jinx would affect him. He is > just arrogant enough to think, no jinx can get the best of me. I don't even > believe there is a jinx, but if there is one, I'm smart enough to outwit it. > ... I can totally believe a person of his temperament scoffing at the idea > of a jinx or believing that he could overcome it somehow. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Ummmm, Snape thinks he can out wit the Dark Lord's jinx/curse on the Dark Arts job?? Is the the same Snape that says the Dark Lords word is law?? OK, so, Snape thinks he can outwit the dark lords jinx/curse. Snape doesn't believe in that sort of thing, he is to smart for that sort of thing, doesn't believe in jinxes, curses, or prophecies? Well, that explains why he ran back to the dark lord with the prophecy, those jinxes/curse/prophecies are nothing really. I'm so arrogant, I can beat the dark lords curse, baa, silly prophecy, the dark lord'll never believe that. That stuff is just for looses to believe in, He's to arrogant...things he's better than the Dark Lord's jinx/curse.....HUmmmmmm.... Somehow this theory would suggest to me that, he is not loyal to the Dark Lord. I don't know, he is a wizard I'm sure he believe's in jinxes and curses and that sort of thing....after all, thats what they do, isn't it. > > sherry wrote: > noting that the hero of the book is Harry, not Snape, and that Snape being > ultimately on the side of good and rushing in at the last moment to save > Harry's hide would be a horrible disservice to the true hero of the books! KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Oh yea, Harry Potter....hum, exactly, yea, he is the hero of the story. How many times has he been the only hero in the story?? Oh yea, I forgot Hermione she doesn't do anything, Nope shes not a hero. Ron, NAA..he's just a sidekick, no hero time there. Dumbledore...NAaaaa, He's never done anything remotly heroic in the series. Lupin, Sirius, Lily, Tonks, Neville, NOPE...No Hero's their....NOPE. You guys, Harry is the only Hero we have in the series, it would be a horrible thing to find out their are other heros in the series, I mean, Harry has to save the day right...right..with no help, No one, he has to Gooo it alone, Just like he has been doing the whole series. YEP, it would really distroy the story if someone else helped him or looked heroic. Oh wait, has Snape ever done anything heroic at all, Naaa, he only took an unbreakable vow to save some kid, yea, thats it, Thats not remotly heroic in any way. The only way one could see it as heroic is, If you put yourself in Snape's position, and Your best friend comes to you and asks you do to an unbreakable vow to save their child from death and their whole family. Naaaaa, you wouldn't do that now would you??? Come on, I mean, Snape can't have friends. And well, there mean people anyway, mean people can't have friends so, it wasn't heroic at all just mean people using each other. Meh, forgive my sarcasm, my inner Snape is on auto pilot today. KarentheUnicorn From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 02:25:19 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:25:19 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137850 "eggplant107" wrote: > > I think you're wrong, I think Harry has more than a passing interest > in murdering Snape, I certainly hope so. At least once before this > series is over I want to see Harry Potter turn into Dirty Harry, I > want to see him become positively scary. I really hope JKR doesn't > take this winning ultimate victories with nothing but love business > too far. When Harry and Snape meet again as I'm sure they will I don't > want to hear wimpy stuff about forgive and forget, and I don't want > Harry to kill Snape with love, I want a bloodbath, I want gunfight at > the OK Corral, I want Night of The Living Dead grade rage on Harry's > part. And I have my hopes because Harry is not a saint like > Dumbledore, thank goodness. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: You know, its moments like this when I wonder how I got picked for jury duty. Me, yes, I have jury duty this week, on thursday. What does that have to do with this post. Well, Eggplant, you have a firm direction with your opinion, Snape is evil, you want him dead in a bloodbath, without an explaination from him or without giving him a chance to put forth any evidence to explain himself. So, I was thinking, with that much 100% quality opinion, that you know Snape is 100% evil and doesn't deserve to live, I really think you should take over Jury duty for me...yep, If you can decide a case without motive, or the defendant having his say, then, I would love for you to come sit in for me on Thursday...please. KarentheUnicorn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 02:28:07 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:28:07 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137851 > Valky: > AS to this Iron-Clad reason for trusting Snape. I am trying very > hard to dig in and uncover it at last, but the closer I get, the > more it seems to me that Dumbledore's Iron Clad reason didn't > include expecting Snape to behave himself and stay out of trouble. > In fact it actually seems to me that DD based his reason on the > guarantee, almost, that Sevvie *would* bury himself again. > Betsy Hp: Hmmm. I'm going to have to disagree with this theory, because it also limits the amount of trust Dumbledore would have for Snape. If Dumbledore merely "trusted Snape to be Snape" (to paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson in "Jackie Brown") then he's not really trusting Snape at all. Valky now: Yes Betsy, I agree with that. Which is why I am not actually saying that Dumbledores trust *hinges* on Snape being unable to avoid falling prey to his own evil, but rather just that DD *doesn't exclude* it. Yes I see that limits how much trust DD would have in Sevvie. To me, it limits DD to the point where he knows that Snape will do as he feels is right, as anyone, and this will include using Dark Magic or pecadillos to further himself towards the perceived end, though DD would hope that he had managed to advise and guide him sufficiently in the art of more selfless ways to achieve ends. Snape is clearly Slytherin in that the end is of higher relative importance than the means, so to much a degree DD would need to concede that it was is vain to teach him to give his means much thought. But in the quintessential degree, DD trusts in Snapes ends, his choices seem to reveal that at the clinching moment he doesn't do evil. 1. Lupin got to finish his last year of school, although Snape had the tools within his hands to destroy it for him. It's hard to believe that DD would claim he insists absolutely on leaving free will to itself if he took it from Sevvie at this moment. 2. Dumbledore, James and Lily, knew about Voldemorts plan for Harry before he carried it out. Snape freely gave enough information to help provide Harry Lily and James with a year of togetherness when they might have had Harry snatched from them at birth instead. So there we see that Snapes choices reveal something more than the pattern of duping himself, carrying out nasty little malefactions, and working for the bad guy if it suits his short term purpose. Additionally it reveals, that he cannot contribute to Evil in the end of the game. Betsy: And the evidence of the books points to Dumbledore trusting Snape possibly above all other Order members, IMO. It looks like Dumbledore shared the existence of the horcruxes with Snape. Something shared only with Harry, Ron and Hermione. That's a huge amount of trust to be giving out to someone Dumbledore thinks suffers from a "dark arts addiction" (Do we have any canon supporting the existence of that sort of malady, out of curiosity?) or a tendency to behave badly if left to his own devices. Valky: I believe that this is probably less so. I doubt that DD *shared* with Snape these secrets as in giving them. The chance is rather more high that clever little Sevvie worked out a lot of what was going on for himself. This is one of Snape's great strengths, he is excellent at Logic, which Hermione says in PS/SS seems to be very rare among wizards. Snape as exposed to the both sides of the game, and hence was privy to a ot of information. In a sense you're right nyway, because DD would know that Snape was quick on the uptke and that if he let him see enough he'd become firly well advised about what was going on. That *is* a lot of trust. But we need to take into account DD's own prodigious cleverness, the way he reads Toms inner workings is a good example. In the same way DD does this, it's likely he also has a good grip on the limits to what Snape can figure out with Logic. So certain things if he keeps them well enough to himself, Snape won't understand. Leaving Snape with an unfinished formula in total, coupled with his certain tendency to sink himself into denial when he doesn't like the facts. All in all, Snape could then know *a lot* but have less understanding. Then again I could backflip on that and say that he didn't give Snape more information than the other OOTP mmbers because he trusted him more but rather because he *couldn't* trust him an uninformed Snape. Since Sevvie is such a thinker, and would likely put his mind to any small clues till he reached a satisfactory conclusion, it was *necessary* to give him *extra* understanding in order to prevent him jumping to a dangerous conclusion. As for your question about canon evidence to Snapes maladies. The Dark Arts addiction thing was I think well covered in HBP. It' not such an addiction per se, than it is, I think, an intense admiration for the sheer power of the Dark Arts. I think that this is covered also well by Hermiones inference to Harry that Snape sounded like him. The similarity is that Harry has a healthy respect for how incrediby powerful Dark Arts are, while Snape in the same way has respect for the superiority of this power, but it is not quite as healthy. The canon for Snape behaving badly when left to his own devices, are also written well into the series. Sevvie's behaviour towards the Marauders it seems comes to a full head when the older DE students, who are to some degree Sevvies companions while they are there that much I am sure of, are no longer at Hogwarts. When he rises through the Heirarchy of the DE and becomes a most favoured servant of Voldemort, again he is at his own devices and he gets himself in a stick there too. Finally in HBP, DD hands him the DADA job, which is in the sense that I spoke of, setting him free to follow his natural path without a guiding hand, and before he can even blink he's gotten himself into trouble. The pattern is definitely there. The problem is stringing it together in a coherent and believable fashion. Valky: > This goes to why DD tried to keep SS from the DADA position all > those years. Knowing that Snape would get himself into strife if > he began wandering that path again, DD (maybe like he'd hoped with > Harry) that he could help to spare Snape a few more moments in > the 'sun' before his inevitable third strike in the hell of his > own creations. Possibly, as he did with Harry, he felt he had been > too soft on Sevvie too long, and while Sevvie could have been > facing his demons at last, he was safe under the watchful eye of > Dumbledore instead who tried desperately to spare him his > inevitable fate one more time and then one more time again. Jen: Dumbledore's fatal flaw in the end, trying to spare the ones he loves. Sirius in OOTP was another canon example, as well as the most poignant example in HBP, Draco. And I think Draco on the tower symbolized ALL the students Dumbledore watched over the years who struggled because of circumstances and beliefs to make the right choice in the end. It's easy to love and attempt to protect Harry from harm because he's 'Dumbledore's man through and through', like his parents, but to love Draco and try to spare him a fate he brought about through his own ignorance and family ties (much like Snape, I suspect)....those precious moments may have cost Dumbledore his life. Valky: I am so glad you agree with me on that Jen. Yes I think there is definitely more to the consideration that DD tries to spare his loved ones their pain. And Snape could well be an excellent example of how Dumbledores flaw pervades his life more extensively than we realised. It's very beautiful too I think. Another example is Hagrid, who did actually get *himself *into the strife Tom used against him, he did break laws by keeping Aragog, and Hagrid could never really help himself but love unlovable creatures. Again Dumbledore intervenes to spare Hagrid the pain of his mistake, Hagrid could, of course, have made another way through life and given up his love of creatures to cement himself a more *acceptble* place in the WW. But DD loved him just as he was, and found a place for him in Hogwarts. All the while Hagrid remained his flawed self, breeding illegal hybrid creatures and almost losing everything over his love of Buckbeak and Norbert. the thing is that Dumbledore was in many ways, very right about Hagrid, the true Hagrid is more valuable to the world than one who had the fire beat out of him by silly laws preventing wizards from trying to commune with Hippogryffs and Centaurs. Acromantula yes, wizards in general can probably do without too much contact but Aragogs venom was useful apparently, so it's not so wrong that *someone* in the WW can get close to them. And Hagrid bought his brother to Dumbledore's funeral, which has to count for something. Dumbeldores flaw was I think, inescapable for him. So although it does seem it cost him his life in the end, there is so much reason to understand that he would have preferred it that way than ever deny someone his love. Valky wrote: > I know this diverts from canon, but I have this incredible hunch > that Snape became intensely curious about these defenses Harry possessed, > which were, *shock Gasp*, better than his! Ceridwen: Ooh! Tell me more! Valky: I am glad that Betsy asked the question above, because I had hoped that someone would use a strong voice to force me to refine the point. Ceridwen hs said that she will be hunting the canon for more clues. Which I already did. And there are a couple of fascinating twists on this theory. The first is that in OOtP Harry really does dreadfully at Occlumency, except for three crucial moments when he pushes Snape away. The first, not very strong, is when he produces a stinging hex to prevent Snape seeing his feelings for Cho. Snape doesn't really appear to see any significance of this protection Harry has for his feelings regarding loved ones. the second time is even more weak, when Harry protectes his feelings about Cedrics Death. He fought the Legilimency, but really not well at all. The third however is the single most interesting. This is the one when Harry breaks right into Snapes mind. This is the one which I think, if any, caught Snapes curiosity. And this particular memory was the Memory of Harry defending Sirius from the Dementors. So we have the best clues there really if this theory is going to go anywhere at all. Harry breaks in to Snape's mind with extraordinary purposefulness, using a memory where he is *defending* his Godfather Sirius, *against* the dementors in POA - The dementors that *Snape* himself wished to set on Sirius. In a fascinating turn, Snape seems even more angry at Harry than he was when Harry intruded on his mind, when he *doesn't do it again*. The second last point that I would like to consider about this is that in the HBP detentions with Snape we are *told* that Snape "clearly planned" a regular jolt in Harry's stomach that meant he'd just read something about his father and Sirius. Which goes quite strongly to the notion that Snape was studying Harry's reactions. Snape was definitely IMHO *studying* Harry from the moment he arrived at Hogwarts, so what he was studying in Harry in detentions, I am pretty sure had something to do with the "jolt in his stomach". The final piece of evidence that comes to mind is that Harry says to Hermione and Ron that he wishes Snape would get himself another "Guinea Pig." Is there more to that than meets the eye? Valky: > So here I offer, as far as I can gather, the basis for DD's trust > of Snape. Dumbledore trusts that while he has a firm hand on the > steering wheel he can keep Severus from tangling himself up in > evil, And Severus is, in this way, capable of immense good despite > his terrible demeanour. Once DD lets go of the wheel, he knows he > is setting the bird free. He knows that he is leaving Severus to > his own devices completely, which will in turn mean that someday > soon down the track Sevvie is going to get himself in the same > position he was twice ago faced with the consequences of his awful > deeds. And it is this that Dumbledore trusts most fully, most > remarkably, he trusts that Snape cannot act evilly in this moment. Jen: But you left out the ending! Tell me the ending to this fairy tale, which track did he take this time? Was the third time the charm or the curse? Did he make the right decision, in the end? Is he more like Draco or Tom? Valky: I wish I knew. Naturally it has to do with Harry this time, and I think to really read the pattern we have to know better about the Prank, than we do. Snape so far has received two redeeming mercies, the first from James, and the second from Dumbledore. The third will naturally come from Harry if at all. Speculating on Harry's character I think we can pretty safely bet that Snape might be in for a charm, but again its hard to know if, although Harry would show mercy, would it be a curse on Sevvie anyway brought on by his own evil. This time I think he has taken the track when he took the Unbreakable Vow, this is just MO, leaving that in the end, Snape did not actually *do evil* by killing Dumbledore, but he certainly got himself into that position by evil means. So I think perhaps we have seen the fall of Snape play out entirely, which will leave it up to Harry to see the something in Snape that his father and Dumbledore did. This we do know, Snape was *trying* to get James expelled by going to the Willow, but James saw through to something else as well and saved him, and we know that Snape had already done the worst he could to play his part in destroying Harry's family before he came to Dumbledore for help and DD too saw through the evilness of the deed to something else in Snape and also was merciful. So to follow the pattern, Harry will see through the evil of Snapes deed to *a* something else. And he will probably show Snape a form of mercy, likely saving him in some way. But I can't really squeeze anything more out of it yet. Oh to have the prank story too.... Valky From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 02:50:27 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:50:27 -0000 Subject: More transfigured Locket/Power!Horcrux Was Re: Have I just transfigured ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137852 Saraquel: Following my thoughts down the line of Voldemort transfiguring the Real Horcrux!Locket, to look like a fake one. Should we assume that ALL the remaining Horcruxes have been disguised in this way, to look like something innocent? If so, then Hufflepuff's cup could well be at Hogwarts ? somewhere in the Trophy Room maybe. The Tom Riddle Award for Special Services to the School (nice ironic twist), or maybe the Quidditch Cup or the House Cup. Is the trophy room on the way to DDs office from the main door? Or is it one of the objects in DDs office ? remember that sleight of hand that Voldemort made as he was leaving, which Harry interpreted as an attempt to go for his wand? Wouldn't the office of his enemy be a great place to hide his Horcrux, - very significant to Voldemort? I know timelines are not helpful here. Voldemort came back to Hogwarts, 10 years after he supposedly managed to get hold of the cup. How does this impact on the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor horcrux? Dumbledore just said he found the ring in Marvolo's house. He never got to tell Harry the story, was that because he didn't find the ring in its real form, and plotwise, telling Harry that vital bit of information would have given the game away? So now I'm chasing, what is the significance of the RAB note if Voldemort himself wrote it. And could Harry use the locket as a double bluff on Voldemort to serve his purposes. i.e. Harry destroys all the Horcruxes, including the locket, but having destroyed the Horcrux!Locket, transfigures it back to look like the fake one. Goes to Voldemort with fake looking locket and says ? Hah, I've discovered your secret, now you are mortal, I can kill you. Voldemort laughs, thinking that he has fooled Harry into believing that there was only one Horcrux and then ..what? Now to answer responses to my Powers!Horcrux theory: > Geoff: > But are you therefore suggesting that Harry only has powers which he > got from Voldemort and if he gets at them, Harry will be powerless? I > don't think I buy into that one. Saraquel: I think I quite agree with you Geoff, I had a rush of blood to the head, which, as I said in my last post, in the cold light of day doesn't pan out. However, I do think that there is some mileage in the thought that Harry was taking care of Voldemort's powers for him whilst he didn't have a body. Very ironic, but needs thought, and may come to nothing. >Kathy writes: >If Harry figures out that maybe he has a piece of Voldemort's soul, >maybe he could make a horcrux with Voldie's piece and then blast it >into fragments. The trick would be getting the right piece. He would >not have to commit a murder to make a split, he could just go ahead >and get rid of Voldemort. What do you think??? >KJ Saraquel: Kathy, can I suggest you read through my two posts before the one Geoff quoted, you will see that I definitely do *not* think Harry has a piece of Voldemort's soul in him :-) Neither, do I think that Harry should be doing the most evil magic ever for whatever reason. I'm definitely *not* of the camp that Harry has to brush up on his AV curse in order to get the better of Voldemort. I'm a Love Saves the Day kinda girl. "No unforgiveable curses from you, Potter!" Just had another thought, re Valky's idea that Lily was intended to be a living Horcrux. She was in Gryffindor, Head Girl, brilliant student ? a living example of the perfect Gryffindor. Anyway Horcrux!Lily has always been a bit of a left-field theory, but I really do like it! Saraquel Still puzzling. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 03:10:23 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:10:23 -0000 Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? In-Reply-To: <00a801c5a1e5$439925a0$bb3a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137853 "Sherry Gomes" wrote: However, lately, we who > believe Snape is pure evil have been accused of things such as being > unsophisticated readers or attacking the author or being boring or various > other such things. I, for one, have never said such things about Snape > defenders. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well, I've had people that though Snape was a vampire blow me out for saying he wasn't so, meh. It seems a simlar thing. I don't think I've called anyone unsophisticated yet....since, I lack sophistication myself, I would say I'm probably as unsophisticated or close to it as one can get. Sherry Wrote: That the Snape defenders We are unsophisticated > because we actually like Harry Potter. Ok, in many, many posts in the last > few weeks, several Snape detractors have reiterated that they interpret the > canon in different ways. For example, the fight between Harry and Snape is > seen by Snape defenders as Snape giving Harry one more lesson as he flees > Hogwarts. To me, as a Snape detractor, I see it as taunting. same canon, > different interpretation. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well, its like, you can argue about the color blue, its blue, no its teal, no its blue. Its the same sort of argument really. I think people are just looking for theories, and lets face it, Not everyone is the biggest Harry fan, some people do have a different opinion. I don't think I've tried to really chance anyone's opinion with my posts, I think I've been putting my thoughts out there, maybe sometimes I come off as silly or down right sarcastic sometimes. I don't know, everyone has their opinions one why things are said or done in the series, most of the people who are Snape fans are trying to figure him out, even if he is, as you say evil. The one thing you have to remember though, some people get emotional about this stuff, they get personal, they get sarcastic...(laughs) If some people can feel strongly about Harry, I imagine their is an equal number of people who can feel strongly about Snape, and it takes a lot to get someone to change their opinion. To get someone to change their opinion about something, you have to have equal impact on them with our own opinion, but, when you put your own emotion into it, that is generally when the clash takes place. To change opinions you have to be able to sway someone on a level that requires them to turn from what they believe, to what you believe. Maybe changing people's opinions in and of itself is a bad idea, this isn't world peace, or, saving lives or anything, its a book, so, if people are arguing about one character....meh, could be worse I suppose. Sherry wrote: > > Defenders claim that Snape's rage at being called coward is because he has > just committed the noble brave act of murdering the one person in the world > who trusted and believed in him. As a detractor, I ask, and i have asked > several times, how is it brave to murder a weak and sick old man? in any > society that is considered murder and would have you off to court and > prison. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well, generally in society it pretty much depends on who you are in if you get dragged off to prsion. Lots of people who are guity get off, lots of people who are innocent probably end up in prison....hum...isn't that sorta gandolphish LOTR....Them that deserve to die live, and them that deserve to live die--Don't try to be so ready to send someone up the river without a paddle...meh...ok so I'm paraphrasing....meh, hay who wants to listen to an old wizard anyway, not me. > Sherry wrote: ! So, I am not criticizing JKR, when I say there are show > stoppers for me. I would just be saying, if that time comes, that there are > some stories I don't like to read. that is not a put down of the teller. > However, I have confidence, that however Jo ends the series, she will not > disappoint. She hasn't disappointed me yet, and I don't expect that she > will. Whatever she ends up doing, she will make it work. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I hope you are right, but, I think other people have a right to say they will feel disappointed if a favorite character dies or ends up in a situation they don't want to see said character in. I can understand some people don't like Snape--but I think some people want to like this character, and they want him to end up good, maybe I'm just a sadistic, sarcastic git too....meh...probably, but regardless of my own person chracteristics, I would be disappointed if Snape ends up just being evil, and we don't get more relitive information for it. Is that being critical of JKR, meh, I don't know. As if my miniture mini disappointment would distroy the potter universe...LOL. But, I do think it would be a bitter pill to take for some people. I will use my own mother as an example, She has never read one of the books, she has in fact only seen the movies. I have never talked about any of the books with her, she has strickly only gotten her potter stuff from the movies. After I had read HBP, she asked me, because she has heard something about a character dieing in the book, she asked me who died. I told her, see was sad, and she asked me how, I told her, she gave me a look of utter shock, and without even knowing how it happened she said it was a trick. So, I pondered this statement, So, I have tried to figure out, how would the movies work out if in the end, Snape is truly evil....well, in some ways one has to take the movies and book as two seperate beasts. I look at POA Movie with confusion, I also hear that GOF will not have some critical scenes that would help in the Snape development to help fans understand. The whole Saving the kids from the werwolf scene at the end of POA is utterly confusing to me, and I am left wondering why JKR would allow the scene to be played out that way, They didn't have to have AR/Snape come running out at all to save the kids.....meh, I don't know. I suppose I shouldn't bring the movies into the book talk, since, as I said above they are two different beasts. But, I suppose it can just be played off as-- Snape playing his part as evil spy--standing in front of a werwolf seems a rather bit thing to show though...but anyway, I digress. One thing you have to think on is, some people want Snape to end up good, but I have seen some posts that say the story would be terrible if he ended up good. To me, that is disappointing, why would someone they though was bad, who ends up doing something good or actually ends up being on the good side be a disappointment?? I can't figure this out, Its like saying, well, That guy down the street robbed the mini mart, BOY I HOPE he is evil. Yes he did a bad thing, but, maybe he needed the money, maybe he just got in with the wrong people. NOW, does that mean I think everyone shoudl go out and rob someone because they need the money....um, No. But, I do think being able to try and understand why it happens can lead to learning how to solve the problem. So, I think unless I can really understand why Snape became evil, I will be disppointed in the story, likewise if he ends up being good, without an explaination I will be equally disappointed. Dang my post has gotten too long, and all this about Snape, Thank the stars my other favorite Series has just come out with Book 6 this month and I have something else to read, and ON a very interesting note on this other series I'm reading, # 7 will be out Feb. 2006. HOW COME, JKR can't be that fast???...oh well, goes off to read my favorites story, sorry Harry, you take second place to Sanglant and Liath...(laughs) KarentheUnicorn From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 03:11:17 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:11:17 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mt3t3l1" wrote: > > "'Yeah, so do -- Harry, what's that on the back of your hand?' > Harry, who had just scratched his nose with his free right hand, > [snip] > "'I must not tell lies,' Harry wrote. The cut in the back of his > right hand opened and began to bleed afresh." > > This would indicate that Harry is right handed, at least for writing. Quite the opposite, I think. If the cut is on the back of his right hand, then he presumably wrote it there with his left. Magic or no, it would be a rare person who could use his writing hand to write on that same hand's back. Ersatz Harry From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 17 03:28:00 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:28:00 -0000 Subject: Harry on his own and 1-D Snape? (was Re: "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not") In-Reply-To: <403e946f05081612575b93bf61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137855 > > Dumbledore. I was thinking about this yesterday. Is he so wrong to > trust people? Sure, on the surface that all came to a sticky end with > Snape, but to me this is what sets him apart from LV. Trust and > distrust. What I cannot get a handle on is that Dumbledore was so > easily fooled. He gave Snape a double wammy. > I don't think the vote is in on Snape by any means. I just reread the Tower scene, paying particular attention to Snape's reactions, and, well... There's a wonderful verse in one of the songs in The King and I: Is a danger to be trusting one another, One will seldom want to do what other wishes; But unless someday somebody trust somebody There'll be nothing left on earth excepting fishes! I kind of think that is where Dumbledore draws the line, and what it means for Snape is still evolving. --Gatta From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Aug 17 03:46:30 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:46:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And now for something completely different... Message-ID: <200.7f13ebf.30340d16@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137856 In a message dated 8/16/2005 11:12:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ersatzharry at yahoo.com writes: If the cut is on the back of his right hand, then he presumably wrote it there with his left. Magic or no, it would be a rare person who could use his writing hand to write on that same hand's back. -------------------- Sherrie here: Except that he DIDN'T write on the back of his hand - he wrote on the PARCHMENT. Besides, doesn't Harry tell Ollivander in PS/SS that he's right-handed? Or am I misremembering? Sherrie (who wouldn't be at all surprised - too many scripts at once!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 04:03:00 2005 From: adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com (adamjmarcantel) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:03:00 -0000 Subject: Why is the prophecy written the way it is? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137857 "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." (The above is taken from the Lexicon) An interesting thought occured to me as I am sitting here looking for clues about Snape and what is ultimate role will be. Before going any further, I will say I am one who believes Snape will be redeemed (I also think Draco will be redeemed, but that is another topic). Ok, the first line of the prophecy SEEMS to say the same as the last, but knowing what we know about a certain eavesdropper, could the first line be in the present tense? Sybil could have been telling DD that the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...literally...he could be right outside. I only thought this because it seems such an odd way to begin and end the prophecy...why couldn't she just say "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies" to start with? Why begin it the way she does? Does the whole prophecy discuss one person? JK rarely phrases things, especially important things, in a random, haphazard way. I am convinced there is a reason the prophecy was written like this. Go ahead and poke holes in this...I will just send you the bill for my counseling :0) Adam From barbfulton at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 02:09:49 2005 From: barbfulton at yahoo.com (Barb Fulton) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:09:49 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137858 Merrylinks: snip quote about Harry in detention with Delores... > This would indicate that Harry is right handed, at least for writing. > Yet on the book covers drawn by Mary Grandpre, Harry appears to be > left handed. On the US cover of SS he is trying to catch the Snitch > with his left hand. On the US covers of GOF, OOP and HBP he is > holding his wand in his left hand. Barb now: Harry is right-handed. In PS/SS (page 83 Am. ed. paperback), when Harry is in Ollivander's getting his wand: "Which is your wand arm?" "Er-well, I'm right-handed," said Harry. As for why GrandPre drew him left-handed-only she knows. I think I remember reading that she based Harry on herself-maybe she's left- handed? Or maybe it just looked better with the wand in his left hand. -Barb From klodiana_xha at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 01:23:44 2005 From: klodiana_xha at yahoo.com (klodiana_xha) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 01:23:44 -0000 Subject: Fawkes the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137859 Johnbowman19 wrote: So I asked myself how would DD know about Horcruxes? I think the reason why he knows about Horcruxes is because he made one. This leads to question what would be his Horcrux? Fawkes. Klodiana: If Dumbledore has to be alive because of Fawkes I would atribute it to Fawkes' magical tears and song since he wept and sang when Dumbledore died. As for the Horcrux idea that IMO is beneath Dumbledore. Klodiana From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 17 04:14:16 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:14:16 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137861 Valky: > > ...All the while Hagrid remained his flawed self, breeding > creatures and almost losing everything over his love of Buckbeak > and Norbert... > Gatta: I think you just stumbled over something very important here, kind of by accident and kind of in passing, but important nevertheless. (Apologies if someone has already pointed this out; I'm a new kid in town, and there are an awful lot of archives to poke through.) The thing that stands out about Voldemort is that he can't tolerate love, and as we find out in HBP13, has never experienced it. (Merope dies at his birth, and nobody else has ever really cared about him, especially after the evil nature of his character begins to assert itself.) Whereas the point is made repeatedly that Harry survived Voldemort's attack on him as a baby and Harry has the power to destroy Voldemort's followers (and one assumes eventually Voldemort himself) because of the strength with which Lily's love has imbued him. In this respect Harry and Hagrid (who had a father's love) are very much alike; most of the "mistakes" Harry makes (rescuing Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets, helping Sirius to escape) are the result of love and the desire to do the right thing. Now which the two, Voldemort and Harry, is Snape more like? I think I would have to come down on the side of Harry; Snape has known a mother's devoted love, just as Harry has, and while his years at Hogwarts are not without conflict and incident--unlike Harry's, of course ;)--we don't see him actually doing anything overtly evil (well, O.K., his educational methods leave a bit to be desired, but the kids seem to survive him without losing too much skin; we have to remember that the model for Hogwarts is the English "public" school system, which treats children a good deal less gently than the American school system does) until the moment when he kills Dumbledore. Which leaves me wondering if that act is one of those apparent "mistakes" like Harry's (for example, killing Professor Quirrel, surely something a student would not normally get away with), for which there is after all an underlying explanation that we we don't know about, but Dumbledore (and JKR) do. Until I know better, I'm giving Severus Snape the benefit of the doubt. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 04:20:52 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:20:52 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137862 Saraquel: > So, I there you have it. RAB is *not* Regulus Black. No-one had > to find the cave. That whiz-bang potion is Voldemort's. Harry > has the real Horcrux!Locket. It's not important where the > unopenable locket in Grimauld Place is, and the whole Mung thing > is either a red herring or part of another plot thread. IMO, if > it is relevant at all, Harry will finally track it down and find > that it is no snake on it, which may prompt him to think again > about the locket that he has. Jen: JKR spent so much time explaining who Riddle was in HBP, and how he evolved into Lord Voldemort. It was for Harry of course ;), but I find myself referring back to it constantly when figuring out what Voldemort would and wouldn't do. The first thing that strikes me about Voldemort writing that note himself, and that RAB refers to "really any-body", was the comment by Dumbledore: "There he showed his contempt for anything that tied him to other people, anything that made him ordinary. Even then he wished to be different, separate, notorious." (chap. 13, p. 277, US). I *think*, that to Voldemort, a hoax would be a very common thing to do. He carefully laid his plans for the Horcruxes, chose significant murders, significant trophies, chose the number seven as the 'most powerfully magical number'....I think those protections were chosen with equal thought as to the significance of the magic. (Although it did just occur to me Horcrux sounds a little like Hoax, doesn't it ? I still think Horcrux isn't some big Latin thingy but merely a JKR play on 'the crux of the matter'.) But back to the hoax idea. Another thought. The note itself, "I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more." No, our death-phobic, immortality-loving Dark Lord would not put that in writing! No hoax would be worth him demeaning himself to even suggest he would ever be mortal again. But to add a tidbit to your side of the theory Saraquel, we don't get to see Riddle's writing style in COS. Interesting, huh? We get to see most of the notes in individual handwritten style, but when Harry talks to the diary, it's just written in italic typeface. So as not to give anything away? Saraquel: > Also, according to DD, only Voldemort, DD and Harry (possibly > Slughorn)know that Voldemort has made more than one Horcrux. The > note reinforces the idea that there is only one horcrux out there, > and if imaginary RAB had destroyed it, then whoever found the fake > one, if they survived, would be tempted to try and kill Voldemort, > thus breaking their cover and revealing themselves as his enemy. Jen: I don't know. This is compelling because the note does speak to only one Horcrux existing. But it's also very plausible that it's the only Horcrux RAB knew about. Boring, I know, but definitely true to canon. If it has taken Dumbledore so long to decipher who Voldemort is, what's he's done, how it did it, etc., it's believable that RAB found out about only one Horcrux and never thought anything else about the possibility of more. No one has ever heard of such a thing as six additional ones. Saraquel: > It always puzzled me why JKR deliberately had both Harry and > Dumbledore not have time to notice the locket. For me, as a > reader, the discovery of the fake!horcrux did not sit well *after* > DDs death. I was so blown out by his death, that I found the > discovery of the Horcrux almost annoying in taking my attention > away from it. But, now it makes sense to me, because DD would > always have suspected the locket to be the real one and would have > told Harry so. Jen: I guess I marked that down to the poison effect! I mean, it seemed to fit with the energy of sequence in the cave for me. Dumbledore didn't really examine the locket at all, he grabbed it from what was left of the green goo, still partially covering the locket from the description, then tried to get himself and Harry the hell away from the Inferi and the cave. And Harry *never* got a chance to see the locket, nor did he notice anything except that Dumbledore took the time to pick it up. We couldn't even tell if DD really looked at it as he "scooped the locket from the bottom of the stone basin and stored it in his robes" all the while "maintaining the ring of fire" with his wand. A sad thought, though: Harry could tell the locket wasn't the same one he'd seen in the Pensieve the minute he picked it up off the ground. Do you think DD did realize it wasn't the Horcrux in the cave, but couldn't spend the time or energy to explain in the moment? And maybe didn't want Harry to know they'd 'failed' without having time to really sit down and talk about it? Then it was too late, too many other events intervened and Dumbledore never got the chance. Wah. Jen From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 04:31:55 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:31:55 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry In-Reply-To: <43029D41.1050503@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137863 > Kathy writes: > My impression is that Sibyll was hired at the time of the prophesy. > Snape was still in Voldemort's camp and passed on the prophesy. It > would then have taken V. some time to determine what child was the > prophesied danger. Harry was 15 months old when his parents were > killed and Voldemort fell. We know that someone, possibly Snape, > reported that there was a spy in the Order a year before Voldemort > fell. We are also encouraged to believe that Snape, in some way > tried to warn James about Sirius, Snape's suspect, and James refused > to believe it. Snape may have tried to warn Lily. We don't know how > long the Potters were in hiding before Wormtail turned them over to > Voldemort. Sirius might have been their secretkeeper for a while > until he decided it was safer to pick someone that Voldemort would > never expect. Since Snape was teaching for fourteen years in OotP, > when Harry is fifteen, we know that Snape started teaching when > Harry was a year old give or take a month here or there. Three > months later Voldemort was Vapormort. > KJ Valky: I like this Kathy, because it's very succinct. Assuming that you've made no errors and it is also accurate, since my own brain is vehemently refusing to even *try* to recreate the timeline for me, then in this summary, the slices of canon that are questioned in this thread will slide in neatly. Dumbledores version: Snape rejoined the good side *before* LV's downfall. - He confessedhis remorse and joined Dumbledore before he was offered the job as Potions master. Trelawney's version: Snape was after a job at Hogwarts at the same time as her, almost two years before he was offered the Potionmasters job. (from DD) He overheard the prophecy and was still in DE employ for a few months before he began giving DD information as a double agent. Snapes Version: He spun a tale of remorse to DD and got himself a Job at Hogwarts under Voldemorts orders. This could all be true with just a deliberate misdirection on Snapes behalf regarding the timeline of it all. So the truth is at the end of 1979 - Voldie sent him to infiltrate Hogwarts, DD refused him employment and he told LV about the prophecy, some months later, shortly after Harry's time of birth. Snape returned to DD with his change of heart and tells him of LV's plan for the prophecy child, for close to the next year Snape gradually falls out of the DE inner circle while passing information to DD. He learns that there is a traitor in the Order, and he is aware of Voldemorts moves and his fellowship, which is useful to the Order. All the while he is concurrently passing Voldemort information about what DD and the Order are up to (but he doesn't directly aid Voldemort in finding arry this much is canon, since he didnt know that Sirius hadn't been the betrayer). It does seem that his reputation among DE's was affected by all these new activities,(hence the great risk to himself) as Voldie says he thought Snape had left him forever, and Bella also makes a point of mentioning that Snape has been slithering his way out of action for a long time, including the months before GH. Since this timeline is now such a crucial talking point in threads I submit this summary which may help us to get it right. Sept 1979 - March 1980: Snape is working for Voldemort - but he has asked DD for a job on Voldemorts orders. Dumbledore refuses. July 1980 - Sept 1980: Snape offers DD his remorse for what he has brought upon Harry's family. He plays double agent: He tells Voldemort that he is outsmarting DD and he will soon have his trust enough to get a job at Hogwarts, and he spies on Voldie for Dumbledore. DD and Snape keep this exclusively between themselves. July 1981- Sept 1981: The attack from Voldemort on GH is imminent, Snape tries desperately to ensure that all he has done in the past year to atone for his deed will save the Potters, but he fails, and in doing so he risks blowing his cover big time. July 1982 - Sept 1982: Snape is working at Hogwarts as Potions Master, DD has kept him out of Azkaban in reward for all his efforts during the first war. 1995 - Snape finally goes to Voldemort to tell him that he did, after all, get that job at Hogwarts, and win DD's trust. Voldemort is pleased to hear that someone stuck to the original plan for the better - especially after Lucius went ahead and lost the diary. And he welcomes Snape back into his fold. Valky From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 17 04:36:24 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:36:24 -0000 Subject: Pervasive Mist from Dementors Breeding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137864 > > One young Canadian boy earlier asked her how Dementers breed. > "I was just so pleased that he thought about it and pleased that I > had the answer," Rowling told The Canadian Press. > These evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but grow like a > fungus where there is decay. > Melissa. > Oh, thank you, Melissa! In a fanfic I'm trying to cobble together (about baseball and Americans at Hogwarts, ambitious since I don't know squat about baseball), the protagonist (so far) is a young Witch who takes it upon herself to de-dement the bathrooms and laundry room every morning, and thinks of them as a rather aggressive form of mildew. --Gatta From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 17 05:30:44 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:30:44 -0000 Subject: Why is the prophecy written the way it is? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adamjmarcantel" wrote: > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born > to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies > ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have > power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of > the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one > with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh > month dies..." > (The above is taken from the Lexicon) > > An interesting thought occured to me as I am sitting here looking for > clues about Snape and what is ultimate role will be. Before going any > further, I will say I am one who believes Snape will be redeemed (I > also think Draco will be redeemed, but that is another topic). Ok, > the first line of the prophecy SEEMS to say the same as the last, but > knowing what we know about a certain eavesdropper, could the first > line be in the present tense? Sybil could have been telling DD that > the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord > approaches...literally...he could be right outside. I only thought > this because it seems such an odd way to begin and end the > prophecy...why couldn't she just say "The one with the power to > vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies" to > start with? Why begin it the way she does? Does the whole prophecy > discuss one person? JK rarely phrases things, especially important > things, in a random, haphazard way. I am convinced there is a reason > the prophecy was written like this. > > Go ahead and poke holes in this...I will just send you the bill for my > counseling :0) > > Adam Hello, I also had this idea a while back, check the following post for my comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134657 I like thinking of the "approaches" in the immediate sense, but it was a stretch to make the rest of the prophecy fit Snape instead of Harry...so I am not sure if I actually believe this theory myself, still it's fun to theorize. I think the prophecy refers to two people, and not more -- the One and the Dark Lord. We assume the One spoken of here is Harry and the Dark Lord spoken of is Voldemort, but wouldn't it be a twist if the One spoken of here was Snape (if you believe in a Good!Snape who would use the "power he knows not" to destroy Voldemort), or the Dark Lord is actually not Voldie, but Snape (if you believe in TW!Snape and want Harry to finish off Voldie and then go after Snape). I'm sure Voldie isn't the first to call himself, or have others call him a Dark Lord (look at Sauron is LOTR...the "Dark Lord on his Dark Throne"). As I said once before, though, one thing that might blow this theory out of the water was that Harry was able to take the prophecy off the shelf in the Department of Mysteries. Then again, this could just be because his name was written on the prophecy. Cheryl From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 17 05:41:22 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:41:22 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137866 > > Barb now: > > As for why GrandPre drew him left-handed-only she knows. I think I > remember reading that she based Harry on herself-maybe she's left- > handed? Or maybe it just looked better with the wand in his left > hand. > > -Barb > Gatta: I've noticed quite a few discrepancies between the text and the GrandPre illustrations, though of course now that I need an example, none springs nimbly to mind. A friend who writes romance novels tells me this is an ongoing problem between writers and illustrators; apparently illustrators are under as tight a schedule as everybody else, and don't take time to read the book carefully, if indeed they read it at all. Was GrandPre hand-picked by JKR, or someone foisted on her by the publisher? Did she do the art for the British editions as well? As an amusing aside, I have a couple of historicals, one about Richard III, the other about Elizabeth I, that have the same identical cover art. Of course, it doesn't have anything to do with either novel. From djklaugh at comcast.net Wed Aug 17 06:06:51 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:06:51 -0000 Subject: chills (was Re: Anothe Snape Question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137867 potioncat wrote: "Several scenes gave me chills. Fans will think it was intentional foreshadowing of the next books..."(parphrase of JKR comment about \ PoA!Movie) Brothergib: Interesting! I thought the foreshadowing was the protective actions of Snape towards HRH you mentioned. And possibly Lupin's warm words with respect to Lily! Brothergib Christina: (Snip) Also...Fred's (George's?) comment to Ron (paraphrased): "Let's walk you off the astronomy tower and see how you feel?" The line that REALLY gave me chills was from Lupin to Snape (in the shrieking shack): "Severus, please." *shiver shiver* And of course there was the little tidbit with Hermione grabbing Ron's hand. :) Christina Deb writes: And how about this for foreshadowing -- from CoS first chapter... Harry and the Dursleys are having breakfast. Dudley says "I want more bacon"... there are some smarmy comments from Petunia and Vernon about Big D. Then Dudley turns to Harry and says "Pass the frying pan" "You've forgotten the magic word," said Harry irritably. Then ensues a major uproar about Harry saying the "m" word in the Dursley house. And what "magic" word do you think Harry was trying to remind Dudley of .... why the word "please" of course! In polite society when one is asking for something one says "please". And it is also interesting to me that Dumbledore who is, IMO a true gentleman, rarely uses the word "please". As Headmaster he doesn't need to be courteous in giving his staff directions though he definately is... but he does not use the word *please* unless the person he has requested something of has protested or tried to argue or he thinks he or she might some how not want to do as he requests- or the request is of utmost and urgent importance. Dumbledore seems to use this particular word sparingly to underline that when he does use it he really means business. And that this particular request, no matter how politely phrased, is more on the order of a command. Deb - politely submitted for consideration From docmara at comcast.net Wed Aug 17 05:17:32 2005 From: docmara at comcast.net (docmara1) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:17:32 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137868 > Ersatz Harry: > Quite the opposite, I think. If the cut is on the back of his > right hand, then he presumably wrote it there with his left. > Magic or no, it would be a rare person who could use his writing > hand to write on that same hand's back. Don't have the book at hand, but what I recall is that *at the same time* as Harry was writing on the parchment, his writing hand was bleeding -- the blood from his hand supplied the "ink" for the quill. All of this with his right hand. Mara From djklaugh at comcast.net Wed Aug 17 06:48:12 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:48:12 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137869 (Snip) Gatta: (Snip) Now which the two, Voldemort and Harry, is Snape more like? I think I would have to come down on the side of Harry; Snape has known a mother's devoted love, just as Harry has, and while his years at Hogwarts are not without conflict and incident--unlike Harry's, of course ;)--we don't see him actually doing anything overtly evil (well, O.K., his educational methods leave a bit to be desired, but the kids seem to survive him without losing too much skin; we have to remember that the model for Hogwarts is the English "public" school system, which treats children a good deal less gently than the American school system does) until the moment when he kills Dumbledore. Which leaves me wondering if that act is one of those apparent "mistakes" like Harry's (for example, killing Professor Quirrel, surely something a student would not normally get away with), for which there is after all an underlying explanation that we we don't know about, but Dumbledore (and JKR) do. Until I know better, I'm giving Severus Snape the benefit of the doubt. Deb writes: As for Snape's strengths and faults as a teacher, isn't it interesting that in 6 books filled with scenes from Snape's classroom and accounts of his treatment of Slytherin vs Griffindore students, that we have *never* heard any comments from either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff students about Snape? Given that Slughorn's NEWTs Potions class consists of 4 Slytherins, 3 Griffindores, 4 Hufflepuffs (hard workers but not noted in Hogwarts history for high intelligence), and 1 Ravenclaw... Snape must have been doing something right as a teacher. I seriously doubt that, if Snape had taught NEWTs Potions and requiring O level OWLs, the only ones in the class would have been Slytherins..... And given Fred and George's abilities to *create* new and novel potions/sweets/love potions, I suspect they were taking NEWTs Potions prior to their premature departure from Hogwarts. The only comment I remember hearing from them about Snape was in Harry's first year when they say he tends to get nasty when taken on and Ron reports that he has heard that Snape tends to favor Slytherin students. And Bill, Percy, and Charlie of the 11 or 12 OWLs fame must have gotten at least As in Potions to have been awarded so many OWLs. Also I note that Snape is never reported to be specifically nasty to Dean Thomas or the other Griffindores... he rags on Seamus a bit and tells Parvati and Lavender off for doing other things in class... but he is not really nasty to them. Maybe DD knows that, despite appearances from HP, RW, and HG POVs to the contrary, Snape actually is a good teacher. Deb - who barely squeaked by Chemistry 101 but is a whiz in the kitchen From juli17 at aol.com Wed Aug 17 06:51:50 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:51:50 EDT Subject: Medieval attitudes was Saving Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137870 Lupinlore wrote: I really don't see anyway that JKR could come down squarely on EITHER side without it being a contrived and somewhat mechanistic ending. That is, I find both ESE!Snape and DumbledoresMan!Snape to be unsatisfying and uninspired -- although I will admit that DumbledoresMan!Snape strikes me as more contrived and uninteresting than the other. Julie says: And I see DumbledoresMan!Snape as quite satsifying and inspired, and not contrived at all, for reasons I'll point out in a moment... Lupinlore wrote: In any case, I am hoping that JKR takes advantage of the rich potential that exists BETWEEN those two visions of Snape to craft a truly believable and interesting character. It is true that all of Snape's actions can be explained within the framework of DumbledoresMan!Snape AND/OR within the framework of ESE!Snape. In both cases the explanations get forced and tentative at times due to the fact we have a paucity of information. But maybe with Snape what you see is what you get? Maybe the good actions he has taken are evidence of genuine Good in the character and the evil actions concurrently evidence of genuine Evil (capital letters very much intended in each case). A character who never changes and remains absolutely loyal and steady to one goal, whose every action can be explained by reference to one decision made sixteen years ago (whether that decision was to be loyal to Dumbledore or to Voldemort) is not a real person. That kind of character is only a walking plot device, perhaps contrived for some moral message or another (either nice is not the same as good or tolerance can be dangerous if taken to extremes, both of which are literally true but both of which are also equally simplistic). Julie says: I don't agree that DumbledoresMan!Snape is simplistic. Nor do I believe that designation demands that the character must remain static. DumbledoresMan!Snape may be guided by a decision he made sixteen years ago, and that decision may keep him on the side of ultimate Good, but it doesn't prevent him from taking evil actions from time to time, motivated not by his larger goal, but by his petty prejudices and his frequent and all too human mistakes in judgment (e.g. the Unbreakable Vow). Lupinlore wrote: A character torn BETWEEN conflicting good and evil urges, whose actions swerve from one side to the other, is a much more believable and interesting individual. Julie says: But this is EXACTLY who Snape already is--a man too often torn between his urges, from all accounts (up until the uncertain events in HBP) fighting on the side of good, yet unable to overcome his prejudices, or to stop from venting his bitterness on those unable to defend themselves--his students. Rarely has a literary character been shown to act in so many conflicting ways. This is the reason why we STILL haven't figured Snape out, and why this argument over whether his character and deepest intentions are more good or more evil continues unabated HP book after HP book (and I predict will continue NO matter how JKR resolves his character in book Seven). Lupinlore: Frankly I'm not the slightest bit interested in an evil DE who has been fooling Dumbledore for sixteen years, nor am I attracted to a super spy who has remained rock-solid loyal for sixteen years despite evidence and appearances to the contrary. A spy who was, for instance, basically loyal to Dumbledore but who, in the press of the moment, just couldn't bring himself to die for the old man, who perhaps rationalized that he was only doing what he must for the Cause even though deep in his heart he new he was being a coward, who must now find a way back to the light through his own mistakes and the hatred of others -- now THAT would be character worth reading about! Julie says: And if Snape turns out to be a spy basically loyal to Dumbledore, who in the press of the moment is forced to do something horrible because of his own error in judgment, an error in judgment that precipitated a chain of events (not a plan) leading to the death of the one man who truly trusted him--a man who accepted his own potential fate and demanded Snape accept the responsibility for his own error as part of that shared trust--and is left to live, and probably die, with only one piece of knowledge to assauge the heavy burden of that responsibility and trust and all it cost him-- that he remained to the end Dumbledore's man...is THAT not a character worth reading about? In my opinion, it is. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Aug 17 06:52:45 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:52:45 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "docmara1" wrote: > > Ersatz Harry: > > Quite the opposite, I think. If the cut is on the back of his > > right hand, then he presumably wrote it there with his left. > > Magic or no, it would be a rare person who could use his writing > > hand to write on that same hand's back. Mara: > Don't have the book at hand, but what I recall is that *at the same > time* as Harry was writing on the parchment, his writing hand was > bleeding -- the blood from his hand supplied the "ink" for the quill. > All of this with his right hand. Geoff: Two points. Firstly, re Ersatz Harry's comment. He didn't write on his hand. That was Umbridge's magic. So I don't see that that suggestion is relevant. Secondly, I don't think that canon specifies which hand. 'Harry raised the sharp, black quill, then realised what was missing. "You haven't given me any ink," he said. "Oh, you won't need ink," said Professor Umbridge with the merest suggestion of a laugh in her voice. Harry placed the point of the quill on the paper and wrote: I must not tell lies. He let out a gasp of pain. The words had appeared on the parchment in what appeared to be shining red ink. At the same time, the words had appeared on the back of Harry's right hand cut into his skin as though traced there by a scalpel - yet even as he stared at the shining cut, the skin healed over again, leaving the palce where it had been slightly redder than before but quite smooth.' (OOTP "Detention with Dolores" p.240 UK edition) There does not seem to be any specific reference as to which hand Harry is using to write. From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 08:01:04 2005 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:01:04 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Saraquel: > > Meanwhile in a parallel universe, where Snape is ESG! and Draco was > never given the task to murder to DD, Harry is sitting opposite a > revived Dumbledore. The locket lies open on the desk between them, > the scrap of parchment unfolded next to it. Dumbledore is > contemplating them, his elbows on the desk, with the tips of his > fingers resting against each other. > "But Professor, we've failed, it's not the real Horcrux," says Harry > despondently. > After a short pause, Dumbledore smiles, and looks at Harry over the > top of his glasses. > "You think so, Harry?" > Harry looks puzzled. > "Think again, Harry." > "Are you saying that this is the real Horcrux?" > "I am absolutely positive it is." > "Then what about RAB?" > "Well, that could be Really Any-Body." > Harry is still looking puzzled. > "Remember, Harry, Lord Voldemort's skill in persuading others to > believe what he wants them to believe, and I rather think he has > succeeded with you," says Dumbledore gently. > "You mean," says Harry slowly, "that this is part of the protection > of the Horcrux?" > Dumbledore smiles encouragingly. > "So in fact, this *is* the real Horcrux, but he has transfigured > it to look like a fake horcrux and put that note in it to mislead > anyone who found it?" > "I rather think he has, Harry." mz_Annethrope: mz_Annethrope smiles to herself, declares she loves the theory, but pokes holes into it anyway. So back into the almost Potterverse where Snape is SSSnape and Dumbledore is DDDead: Harry, Ron and Hermione are sitting in Ron's bedroom examining the fake locket and wondering where the real locket might have got to. "I have an idea!" said Ron, his eyes brightening. "What if this is the real locket after all? You Know Who might have faked it being a fake horcrux to fool anyone who found it!" Harry and Hermione look at him dumbfounded. "Naah," said Harry. "This isn't the locket I saw in the pensieve. That one was heavier and had a snake etched on it." "But he could have transfigured it to make it look different!" said Ron. "And besides, Dumbledore thought it was the real horcrux." "But Dumbledore was deathly ill when he picked it up," said Hermione. "And he needed to escape. He could easily have mistaken it for the real one." "But it's a great idea," said Ron. "If it was the real locket nobody would be able to penetrate the disguise." There was a crack and the twins landed on the bed, Fred on Ron's lap and George on Harry's. "Nobody would be able to penetrate the disguise but you, little bro," said Fred. "But you did it, little bro," said George. "Hand me that horcrux." "You know about the horcruxes?" said Hermione in astonishment. Fred transfigured the locket into a snake and George waved his wand turning it back into a locket. "Is it the real horcrux or the fake?" he said. "How did you know about the horcruxes?" said Ron hotly. George pulled a long string out of his pocket. "Extendable ears." "We were only trying to eavesdrop on you and Hermione snogging," said Fred, "and what do we hear but the deep dark secrets of You Know Who's soul!" "But seriously Ron," said George. "You Know Who is far too arrogant to ever think that somebody could be clever enough to penetrate all the obstacles he set for out for them." "And besides," said Fred, "that git has no sense of humor. He'd never make fun of himself by faking a fake horcrux. You've got to understand dark wizard psychology, little bro." "Nevertheless, it's a brilliant idea," said George, chuckling to himself. "Ahah!" said Ron, his eyes widening. "You faked the fake horcrux!" mz_annethrope, who is still hoping somebody can figure out how R.A.B. could have swilled all that potion under his own volition to get the locket when Dumbledore couldn't (assuming it's Voldemort's potion and it refills itself). From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 17 09:11:45 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:11:45 -0400 Subject: Do the math Re: Message-ID: <005a01c5a30b$b1687d70$16c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137873 KJ > We don't know how long the Potters were in hiding before Wormtail turned them over to Voldemort CathyD Yes, we do. It was "And then, barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed -- " (POA 153 Can Ed) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 17 09:19:28 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:19:28 -0400 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) Message-ID: <005e01c5a30c$c5109320$16c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137874 Gatta: >Which leaves me wondering if that act is one of those apparent "mistakes" like Harry's (for example, killing Professor Quirrel, surely something a student would not normally get away with), CathyD: Sorry, I had to snip your whole post to get to this. Harry didn't kill Quirrell. Voldemort did. Quirrell was still alive and fighting Harry for the Stone when Dumbledore arrived. The movie really pollutes this scene, IMO, especially as it doesn't show DD arriving at all. Quirrell kind of breaks apart and falls into a heap after Harry touches his face, but that doesn't happen in the book. In the book Harry touching Quirrell, or Quirrell touching Harry, causes Quirrell great pain and blistering as though burned. "Quirrell did not manage to take it from you. I arrived in time to prevent that....I arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off you...." Then Dumbledore says "He [LV} left Quirrell to die; he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemies." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Aug 17 09:20:30 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:20:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And now for something completely different... Message-ID: <1a5.3c7b8aae.30345b5e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137875 In a message dated 8/17/2005 1:42:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com writes: I've noticed quite a few discrepancies between the text and the GrandPre illustrations, though of course now that I need an example, none springs nimbly to mind. ---------------- Sherrie here: How about Majorly-Receding-Hairline-With-Ming-the-Merciless-Goatee Snape? I detest those pictures - they're one of the reasons I prefer the British versions of the books. IIRC, she's also the one who came up with the center placement of Harry's scar - which JKR has said is wrong. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Aug 17 09:25:57 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:25:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And now for something completely different... Message-ID: <1c7.2ebbb4ba.30345ca5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137876 In a message dated 8/17/2005 1:42:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com writes: Did she do the art for the British editions as well? ============ Sherrie here: The British editions don't have any "art", except the covers. (This alone saves a page every three chapters...) IIRC, JKR a long while back said she really didn't wany artwork in the books. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Aug 17 10:11:41 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:11:41 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinion of Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137877 Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban." >From the mouth of JKR herself! Does suggest that Snape would not willingly help Voldemort! That leaves us with Good Snape or Snape Only Out to Help Himself!! It is possible that Snape has bided his time before killing DD, and now knows he can use Harry to help him destroy Voldemort. I am still in the Good Snape camp though!! Brothergib From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Aug 17 11:17:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:17:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137878 After I posted message 137871, I had a sudden jolt of memory and have solved the problem of Harry's writing hand once and for all! '"Hmmm," said Mr. Ollivander, giving Hagrid a piercing look. "Well, now - Mr. Potter. Let me see." He pulled a long tape measure with silver markings out of his pocket. "Which is your wand arm?" "Er - well, I'm right-handed," said Harry' (PS "Diagon Alley" p.64 UK edition) Ha! Bisto! ** Going on to the question of the UK artwork, I have replaced my copies of 1-5 with the standard Bloomsbury adult editions which are hardback with a mainly plain cover but have a large square illustration in the middle on the front which is a version showing part of the original children's paperback edition. The artists are respectively: PS: Thomas Taylor COS/POA: Cliff Wright GOF: Giles Greenfield OOTP: Jason Cockcroft Each volume has the Hogwarts coat-of-arms on the front flyleaf and main title page but, as Sherrie pointed out, there is no other artwork. My HBP is the version with the Potions Book on the cover but there is no artist's dedication or coat-of-arms. I expect they will follow if, as I hope, Bloomsbury produce a matching volume. From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 11:34:35 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:34:35 -0000 Subject: Snape opinions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137879 Hello all. I have been keeping an eye on the Snape poll, which can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1916317 And I have some interesting statistics to give you. - Only 11% of voters had their minds changed about Snape by reading HBP. - 20% used to have firm opinions/hopes, but are now unsure. - 25% remained completely unchanged in their opinions by HBP - 44% remain uncommitted to assigning Snape to DD/Voldy's side or good/ESE. - A whopping 65% of people thought/hoped/expected Snape to be good before they read HBP. - After reading HBP this fell to 27%. (I did not include those who *want* to believe he's good, but aren't sure.) - However, 54% still either believe or *want* to believe that he is good. - Only 4% thought Snape was ESE before HBP, now it's 8%. - The 'don't knows' increased from 14% to 48% due to reading HBP. - Those who thought that Snape was amoral, and not loyal to either side before HBP made up 17%, and none of them changed their minds after reading HBP (though none of the options allowed for a change in opinion from amoral ->good/ese, so we can't be sure). Top 5 individual responses made up 70% of the vote and are: I have always believed Snape was on the side of Good, and after reading HBP, I am SURE of it .....................23% (Hooray! I am DELUSIONAL*, and not alone!) I am hoping and expecting Snape to come down on the side of Good, but I am reserving judgment until I have Book 7 in my hands .....................19% I have always *wanted* to believe Snape was on the side of Good and still want to believe it, but after reading HBP I am not sure .....................12% I have always believed Snape was on the side of Good, but after reading HBP, I am torn .....................8% Ultimately Snape is on no one's side but his own .....................8% - Apparently only one person (0.35%) had always thought Snape was ESE but is now certain that he's good. - The hard-line "always was ESE always will be" make up only 2%. - Only 3% changed their minds from Snape is definitely good, to Snape is definitely ESE. Sooo... I'm afraid I haven't been keeping up with the list at all (you all know why ? list volume is still not back to normal), but I have noticed the words 'obvious' and 'clearly' bandied about in relation to Snape. So what is it that is obvious, exactly? Something different to everyone, no doubt. HBP has clearly confused a lot of people about Snape ? causing a fall of 38% in the number of people who think/hope/expect Snape to ultimately be 'good'. However, this was not accompanied by a corresponding rise in those who think/expect/hope Snape to ultimately be 'evil' (which rose from 4 to only 8%). This implies to me that there is still a great hope amongst the readership that Snape will not turn out to have been working for Voldy all along. The question is, is this because of unrelenting faith in Dumbledore, or is this a genuine wish for redemption for the character? Probably a mixture of the two, for me I lean mostly towards the former. In fact, I've half convinced myself, after that comment about the books not being "that secular", that JKR is very deliberately testing our faith in Dumbledore. Lastly, I have a request. I do not for a second believe that only 284 people on this list have an opinion about Snape. What happened to the other eighteen thousand members? Please please please vote! I find the split of the vote on this subject absolutely fascinating, and would love to be certain that we have a good sampling of opinion. So, whether you are dismayed to see that so few people agree with you, or whether you feel complacent that your choice is so popular, if you haven't yet voted, please do so. Votes can be changed until the poll closes, and I shall continue to keep an eye on what's going on, to see whether immediate reactions are different to more considered opinions in a few months time. Cheers, Dungrollin. *D.E.L.U.S.I.O.N.A.L. (Death Eaters Laughably Unsuspicious, Snape Is Not A Louse.) And then, just for fun: How Snape are you? 1. Are you frequently irritated by the inadequacies of others? a) All the time! (13 points) b) I try my hardest to remain patient. (2 points) c) I have plenty of inadequacies of my own. (7 points) d) (Through gritted teeth) Frequently. (89 points) 2. Do you find yourself unable to prevent hurtful remarks escaping your lips? a) Rarely, and I always feel *terrible* afterwards. (4 points) b) Absolutely! And they all deserve it! (18 points) c) Somehow everything I say comes out sounding like pure wisdom, garnished with light but eccentric humour ? I don't mean it to. (0 points) d) Hurtful? It's wit, you fool. (101 points) 3. What is your favourite colour? a) Green. And silver. And black. They go with my hair. (11 points) b) Raspberry Jam. (3 points) c) Well, I tend to wear grey, but my favourite colour is blue. (5 points) d) What a waste of time. Black suffices for everything. (99 points) 4. Have you ever murdered a headmaster? a) No, I lock myself up at the wrong time of the month. (5 points) b) (Eyes a-twinkle) No. Why do you ask? (1 point) c) No, but I *could* have! (12 points) d) Your clumsy mind lacks the subtlety to have any comprehension of my motivations, even if I were willing to answer the question. (308 points) Less than 15 points: Rest in peace, Professor. You were never anything like Snape. 15-30 points: Don't worry Remus, you're not nearly as awful as you think you are. 30-150 points: Now, Mr Malfoy, there's just no point in trying. You still care far too much about what other people think of you, which will always hold you back. Grow up. More than 150 points: Congratulations! You truly are a miserable git. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 12:48:18 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:48:18 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137880 Saraquel in answer to Jen and mz_annethrope: Thanks for your responses and I must admit that your arguments dig straight to the heart of the matter. Being out of character in such a character driven plot would be a fatal flaw. But, climbing down from the fence, I think that this theory deserves further consideration, and so I will set out a humble, but considered riposte. I by no means anticipate it to be watertight, or even markedly convincing, but I will do my best. For, let's face it, what alternatives do we have? As mz_annethrope commented at the end of her post: >mz_annethrope, who is still hoping somebody can figure out how >R.A.B. could have swilled all that potion under his own volition to >get the locket when Dumbledore couldn't (assuming it's Voldemort's >potion and it refills itself). And that to me is not the greatest problem we have if we are thinking RAB is Regulus Black and the note is for real. Some have suggested Kreacher helped him, yes IMO a good case can be made, but is it a refilling potion? If not, where did the ingredients to make the potion that is currently in there come from? What was Regulus Black's intention, if it was somehow his potion, what did he want the drinker to experience? Etc etc, we are all familiar with the problems. However, I will *willingly* renounce this little theory, the moment someone comes up with a credible explanation of how Regulus Black found out about the cave in the first place ? never mind the complexities of the defences around the Locket. How did he find the cave??? So, rolling up my sleeves, where shall we start. Jen wrote: >and that RAB refers to `really any-body" Saraquel: OK, this is an easy starting point. I did not really mean to say that Voldemort meant `really any-body' when he wrote RAB. I just needed to put something in there to get the theory off the ground and that was the first thing that came to mind. That the letters RAB, are an acronym rather than someone's initials, occurred to me really early on, and I think, that in the context of this theory, an acronym would be more appropriate. However, you're right, to date I can think of nothing that they could stand for. Although, as has been pointed out on the list, many times, if we are talking about Regulus, what does the A stand for. So this is a problem for both sides of the camp. Jen wrote: >Dumbledore: "There he showed his contempt for anything that tied >him to other people, anything that made him ordinary. Even then he >wished to be different, separate, notorious." (chap. 13, p 277, >US). I *think*, that to Voldemort, a hoax would be a very common >thing to do. >Mz_annethrope wrote: >"He'd never make fun of himself by faking a fake horcrux. You've >got to understand dark wizard psychology, little bro." Saraquel: In my mind this isn't a *hoax* or a *fake ? fake*. It is the Real Horcrux!Locket that is lying in the basin underneath the potion DD drinks. To me a hoax would be if Voldemort had set up the whole scenario as if it was a Horcrux but then placed an ordinary locket in the basin ? HAHA gotcha. No, it is a transfigured Horcrux that is in the basin. It is something which appears to be one thing, but is actually another. Now isn't this Voldemort's speciality. To seem the perfect student/employee yet underneath to be plotting to take over the world. We don't know (unless I've missed something) exactly when he made this Horcrux ? whether you can make the Horcrux after the murder is not in canon ? but if he made it at the period of his life when he was working at Borgin and Burkes, then I think it might have appealed to him that the locket looked ordinary, but had something special `concealed' within it. What does Harry do when he sees the locket and the note, he immediately assumes it is worthless. Can you not see Voldemort's contempt, that Harry sees only what is on the outside, and does not penetrate beyond it. Just like the people around Voldemort at the time who took him to be so charming and so helpful, and could not see, to him, the Real, Powerful Voldemort underneath, they were beneath his contempt. The diary is also very ordinary looking. The importance to Voldemort is not in what it looks like, but in its significance. If he was concerned about looks, then - Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest ? I rest my case about looking good. Jen wrote: >The note itself "I face death in the hope that when you meet your >match, you will be mortal once more." No, our death-phobic, >immortality-loving Dark Lord would not put that in writing! No hoax >would be worth him demeaning himself to even suggest he would ever >be mortal again. Mz_annethrope wrote: >"You Know Who is far too arrogant to ever think that somebody could >be clever enough to penetrate all the obstacles he set for out for >them." Saraquel: Now the note is interesting. What happened when Harry destroyed the diary ? COS ch17 p237 UK Ed "Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming over Harry's hands, flooding the floor Silence except for the steady drip drip of ink still oozing from the diary" Before looking up that quote, I expected to find the word blood in there somewhere because to me, that image is like the life blood streaming out. Here again we have a written note. Is it the note that is the transfigured Horcrux and not the locket surrounding it? Say Voldemort thought this right through to the end. Yes, Mz_annethrope, Voldemort is arrogant, but he is protecting his immortality here. I think he would take pride in making the obstacles more and more difficult (which I think they are as you go through the cave) and like DD and the Mirror of Erised, have the last obstacle psychological. Say he did concede that someone might just be able to get the locket out of the basin. His last protection has to deceive the thief into thinking that the object he has in his hand is not the Horcrux. He has to tell them that they have got thus far for nothing. He also has to ensure that they do not tamper with or try and destroy what they find either. So, he leaves them a note, a mystery: who is RAB? Did he destroy the Horcrux that he stole? Is he dead? If the finder believed Voldemort's ruse they might destroy the locket ? the container ? as worthless, but they wouldn't destroy the note, they would keep it safe, to try and figure it out and ultimately that is what Voldemort wants. He wants his Horcrux to be safe. So the wording on the note has to be believable. But if I'm going to say that this theory has a weakness, then this is definitely it. But notice the first sentence is the culprit admitting that he/she "will be dead long before you read this." Voldemort gets his triumph in early. If the thief (in Voldemort's eyes!) does believe that the real horcrux has been destroyed, then the scenario I put in my original post comes into play. Just to add a couple of extra things, which I don't really take to be anything substantial, but interesting in this context: Firstly, we haven't seen JKR use transfiguration for anything significant yet (unless I've missed something glaringly obvious), apart from the chess set in PS, but then JKR used all the subjects. We've seen potions, where shall I start - polyjuice, FF, the cave charms - accio firebolt, herbology ? fish!Harry, DADA on numerous occasions, Divination ? the prophecy, History of Magic - Florian's disappeared, Animagi coming out of your ears (I personally think she overdid that one) but this is a form of human transformation not transfiguration of an object. That leaves Astrology and transfiguration with Arithmancy and Runes if we include Hermione. I think it could well be time to meet an object that's been transfigured. Secondly, when have we ever seen JKR virtually ask us if we've picked up a clue Usually it's, oh I'm going to have be careful or I'll give too much away. Yet in the Mugglenet interview this is what she says ?(note the No, I'm glad!) MA: R.A.B. JKR: Ohhh, good. [All laugh.] JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory? MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. JKR: Have you now? MA: Uh-oh. [Laughter.] JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. Is she being helpful, or is she just checking out that the red herring she wasn't sure about worked? Anyway, as I said, interesting rather than significant. Actually I don't think the case is half bad for this little theory. IMHO I think it holds up better than anything else currently on offer, so I'll stick with it, at least until someone can explain how RAB found the cave :-) Saraquel From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 12:56:09 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:56:09 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lagattalucianese" wrote: > I've noticed quite a few discrepancies between the text and the > GrandPre illustrations, though of course now that I need an example, > none springs nimbly to mind. > > A friend who writes romance novels tells me this is an ongoing problem > between writers and illustrators; apparently illustrators are under as > tight a schedule as everybody else, and don't take time to read the > book carefully, if indeed they read it at all. Was GrandPre > hand-picked by JKR, or someone foisted on her by the publisher? Did > she do the art for the British editions as well? Ah! That probably explains the other mysterious element of the US cover of HBP--why Dumbledore's right hand (presumably his wand hand) is quite intact, rather than "blackened and shriveled;...as though his flesh had been burned away." (US edition, page 48.) As we all know, the Harry Potter books aren't drug store romances produced on a shoestring budget. I would have expected the editors to edit the pictures as well as the text. I guess I learn something new every day. Merrylinks From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Aug 17 11:21:43 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:21:43 -0000 Subject: What kind of Snape is more interesting? Was: Re: Medieval attitudes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137882 > Julie says: > I don't agree that DumbledoresMan!Snape is simplistic. Nor > do I believe that designation demands that the character must > remain static. DumbledoresMan!Snape may be guided by a > decision he made sixteen years ago, and that decision may > keep him on the side of ultimate Good, but it doesn't prevent > him from taking evil actions from time to time, motivated not > by his larger goal, but by his petty prejudices and his frequent > and all too human mistakes in judgment (e.g. the Unbreakable > Vow). Ah, but then he isn't a Dumbledore'sMan!Snape of the type many are postulating! It seems that a popular opinion about such a character would be that EVERYTHING, or nearly everything, he does in is in accord with his loyalty to Dumbledore, including taking the Unbreakable Vow, which many are arguing is simply a permutation of a long-drawn out conspiracy designed to fix Snape firmly in Voldemort's favor. > Julie says: > But this is EXACTLY who Snape already is--a man too often torn > between his urges, from all accounts (up until the uncertain events > in HBP) fighting on the side of good, yet unable to overcome his > prejudices, or to stop from venting his bitterness on those unable to > defend themselves--his students. Rarely has a literary character > been shown to act in so many conflicting ways. And yet, once again, a lot of people postulating Dumbledore'sMan! Snape seem to disagree. Many argue that ALL of Snape's actions, or at least almost all of them, can be explained in light of his mission and his loyalty to Dumbledore (i.e. he's toughening Harry up, Occlumency was never meant to succeed, etc.) > > > Julie says: > And if Snape turns out to be a spy basically loyal to Dumbledore, > who in the press of the moment is forced to do something horrible > because of his own error in judgment, an error in judgment that > precipitated a chain of events (not a plan) leading to the death of > the one man who truly trusted him--a man who accepted his own > potential fate and demanded Snape accept the responsibility for > his own error as part of that shared trust--and is left to live, and > probably die, with only one piece of knowledge to assauge the > heavy burden of that responsibility and trust and all it cost him-- > that he remained to the end Dumbledore's man...is THAT not a > character worth reading about? > > And yet once again that isn't Dumbledore'sMan!Snape of the kind many people are arguing for, and the kind I find simplistic. The Snape you postulate would be an interesting figure, I agree -- largely because so many of his actions, especially on the tower, could legitimately be ascribed to multiple sources (i.e. cowardice, desperation, a genuine desire to serve the plan in a bad situation - or is that simply a rationalization on his part). This is not the kind of Good!Snape you often find in arguments. There, Snape kills Dumbledore in response to a preset plan, or maybe in response to a rapid but incredibly detailed legilemency conversation of which we have not details. There everything Snape does, including often the Vow and Occlumency, are in accord with DD's instructions. The Snape you postulate is essentially the kind that both I and nrenka would like - a complex and flawed figure who, based on the evidence, might see himself as justified but whom others might very legitimately see as in the wrong, a character who must sink or swim based on his own wits and the way in which others are or are not willing to forgive his percieved sins, NOT because Dumbledore appears as a memory or a painting and presents ironclad evidence that Snape was on the good side all along and was acting on DD's instructions. Lupinlore From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 13:48:40 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:48:40 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barb Fulton" wrote: > Merrylinks: > > snip quote about Harry in detention with Delores... > > > This would indicate that Harry is right handed, at least for > writing. > > Yet on the book covers drawn by Mary Grandpre, Harry appears to be > > left handed. On the US cover of SS he is trying to catch the > Snitch > > with his left hand. On the US covers of GOF, OOP and HBP he is > > holding his wand in his left hand. > > > Barb now: > > Harry is right-handed. In PS/SS (page 83 Am. ed. paperback), when > Harry is in Ollivander's getting his wand: "Which is your wand > arm?" "Er-well, I'm right-handed," said Harry. > > As for why GrandPre drew him left-handed-only she knows. I think I > remember reading that she based Harry on herself-maybe she's left- > handed? Or maybe it just looked better with the wand in his left > hand. > > -Barb Now Lorel: I also remember reading that Grandpre chose to make Harry left- handed. And to reply to Ersatz Harry's comment that Harry could not write his detention lines on the back of his right hand: he wrote on the parchment, but Umbridge's special little quill caused the words to appear on his hand. Lorel From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Aug 17 11:35:34 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:35:34 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinion of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137884 Brotherjib wrote: > Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? > JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a > turban." > > From the mouth of JKR herself! Does suggest that Snape would not > willingly help Voldemort! > > That leaves us with Good Snape or Snape Only Out to Help Himself!! > > It is possible that Snape has bided his time before killing DD, and now > knows he can use Harry to help him destroy Voldemort. > > I am still in the Good Snape camp though!! > Chuckle. Very good post, Brothergib. However, like so much JKR says about her characters, it can be taken multiple ways. It seems to me she is just poking fun at Snape's arrogance, i.e. that he would never be caught dead in that silly thing. To look at it more seriously, there is nothing in Snape's conversation with Narcissa and Bellatrix to suggest he WOULD welcome becoming Voldemort's host. He clearly states that he has a healthy regard for his own safety and well-being, and that furthermore Voldemort knows that and is happy with the situation. As Snape points out, Snape in his "craven" switching sides has managed to place himself at a better vantage for Voldemort's cause than Bellatrix did by her blind loyalty. And Voldemort seems, as far as we can tell, to have accepted Snape's explanation about why he didn't help Quirrel. I agree that ESE!Snape has a lot of holes, but Good!Snape seems just as leak-prone. We will see. Lupinlore From gbethman at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 11:42:27 2005 From: gbethman at yahoo.com (Gopal B) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape and timelines In-Reply-To: <1124265675.3738.14239.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050817114227.87359.qmail@web33511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137885 Hi All, Interesting discussions..... would like to add my 2 cents to the same. There are a few things that I noticed regarding the thread on timelines. Trelawney was interviewing for the job when she made the prophecy and the prophecy says that 'One will be born in the seventh month'. This makes the date of prophecy sometime in 1980 and not 1979 (if Harry was born in 1980). 1) Lets assume prophecy was made in Jan 1980 (or was it summer when she made the prediction?). 2) Dumbledore understands the importance of Trelawney's prediction and immediately offers her the job. Trelawney telling Umbridge that she is there for nearly 16 years is still possible if she started in early 1980. 3) Snape is rejected in 1980 but is offered in Sept 1981. That makes his tenure as 14 years when Umbridge asks. Evil!Snape is a terrifying thought but less possible. Why did not LV ask Snape to perform Legilimency and extract the prophecy from Trelawney? Maybe, Snape did not tell it was SPT who made the prophecy. If Snape was truly evil he would have given the prophecy himself without having to go through Book 5. HP series is turning out more of an info-war. DD places more importance to prophecy wordings to have it protected all year losing a couple from the Order in doing so. he also equips Harry with memories and info of LV's past rather than teach him spectacular magic. Snape is dubious but may not be evil. The most fitting end for Snape would be to end up in Azkaban for DD's murder, his exact equal Sirius was there. Thanks, Gopal. From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 14:13:36 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:13:36 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: <200.7f13ebf.30340d16@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 8/16/2005 11:12:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ersatzharry at y... writes: > > If the cut is on the back of his right hand, then he presumably > wrote it there with his left. > > -------------------- > Sherrie here: > > Except that he DIDN'T write on the back of his hand - he wrote on > the PARCHMENT. It just goes to show me that I should check the text before responding next time. My apologies for the error, and thanks to everyone -- geez, there were a lot of you -- who pointed it out. Ersatz Harry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 14:20:38 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:20:38 -0000 Subject: Snape as hero? WAS: Re: Why would Snape want the DADA position? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137887 > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > You guys, Harry is the only Hero we have in the series, it would be > a horrible thing to find out their are other heros in the series, I > mean, Harry has to save the day right...right..with no help, No one, > he has to Gooo it alone, Just like he has been doing the whole > series. YEP, it would really destroy the story if someone else > helped him or looked heroic. Alla: I think Sherry was only talking about one person, who to her does not deserve to be called heroic at the moment. :-) To me too. And whether we like it or not, JKR said it in the interview that for her it is more interesting that at the end Hero must do his job alone. So, Harry received a lot of help during the book and hopefully she would allow him at least receive help from Ron and Hermione at the end, but I sincerely doubt that any adult will be allowed to help him in the final confrontation. Karen: > Oh wait, has Snape ever done anything heroic at all, Naaa, he only > took an unbreakable vow to save some kid, yea, thats it, Thats not > remotly heroic in any way. Alla: As Nora postulated recently you can draw two very different charts for Snape actions throuhout the books and yes, under Evil!Snape or out for himself! Snape it is possible to explain away ALL his actions as not heroic at all. And under ANY kind of Snape I would never ever call Unbreakable Vow to be heroic action. IF Snape is good ( that equals Snape not knowing the task,correct?) THEN I call him taking the Vow to be very idiotic action, because he basically binding himself to do whatever Voldemort asks of Draco , and I think Snape knows that Voldemort usually asks his followers to do bad very bad things. If Snape KNOWS what task is asked so then he chooses to let Narcissa's request override his loyalty to Dumbledore. Nope, NOT heroic in my book. KarenUnicorn: > The only way one could see it as heroic is, If you put yourself in > Snape's position, and Your best friend comes to you and asks you do > to an unbreakable vow to save their child from death and their whole > family. Naaaaa, you wouldn't do that now would you??? Alla: If that would mean killing the only person who ever trusted in me and gave me second chance and kept me from horrible prison Azkaban, I most definitely would NOT do it. Because my loyalty to that person would override any other loyalties I can have, even the loyalty to my friends, who fight on the side against which I am supposed to be fighting. Would that be tragic that I would have to refuse my friend desperate plea? YES, of course. But that I would find to be the action of true Hero during war time. JMO, Alla. From h.m.s at mweb.co.za Wed Aug 17 07:29:50 2005 From: h.m.s at mweb.co.za (H.M.S) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:29:50 +0200 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? Message-ID: <003e01c5a300$06644810$0200a8c0@Sharon> No: HPFGUIDX 137888 Heathrawlings: "I see him as resigning himself to his fate on behalf of good and agreeing to go to Hogwarts, not to play a huge part necessarily, but because seeing the ring (and Harry) remind him of the role his has however unwittingly played in LV's rise and he knows it's the least he can do to accept DD's request to return to Hogwarts. Uh Uh - Slughorn returned to Hogwarts because he believed he would be in the most protected place, where DE's couldn't force him to join up. Also, Hogwarts provided opportunity to have fresh young minds looking up to him, after a year in hiding even from his "fans". IE Slughorn was looking after #1 - his own precious fat & pampered butt!! Sharon (Durban, South Africa) From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 17 14:37:00 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:37:00 -0000 Subject: Responses to several posts (Was: Re: JKR's opinion of Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137889 Brothergib wrote: Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban." >From the mouth of JKR herself! Does suggest that Snape would not willingly help Voldemort! Cheryl: ...Or it could just be a comment about Snape's sense of fashion:) Saraquel: In my mind this isn't a *hoax* or a *fake ? fake*. It is the Real Horcrux!Locket that is lying in the basin underneath the potion DD drinks. To me a hoax would be if Voldemort had set up the whole scenario as if it was a Horcrux but then placed an ordinary locket in the basin ? HAHA gotcha. No, it is a transfigured Horcrux that is in the basin. It is something which appears to be one thing, but is actually another. I love this original idea...that *would* be an added protection on the locket. But if this is so, I wonder how Harry will find out that it is a real horcrux? Dark magic detectors? Locket starts doing things on its own? Sherrie: How about Majorly-Receding-Hairline-With-Ming-the-Merciless- Goatee Snape? I detest those pictures - they're one of the reasons I prefer the British versions of the books. I have mostly the American HC editions of the books, but also some of the Bloomsbury editions, as I sell used books. I generally like the US covers, and enjoy the pictures (such as the garden gnome at the top of the Christmas tree at the beginning of a Very Frosty Christmas:) )at the top of each chapter, but I've also noticed the discrepancies (i.e. Dumbledore's hand in HBP as the latest) and agree with you about the depiction of Snape. Gopal: Evil!Snape is a terrifying thought but less possible. Why did not LV ask Snape to perform Legilimency and extract the prophecy from Trelawney? Could Legilimency extract a prophecy if the prophet does not remember giving the prophecy? Christina: Also...Fred's (George's?) comment to Ron (paraphrased): "Let's walkyou off the astronomy tower and see how you feel?" This was a movie quote, right? In the book, another foreshadowing comment I have not seen mentioned here is Dobby's, "And if Dobby does it wrong, Dobby will throw himself off the topmost tower, Harry Potter!" Cheryl From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 14:53:07 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:53:07 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinion of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137890 Question: Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban." Brotherjib wrote: > From the mouth of JKR herself! > Does suggest that Snape would > not > willingly help Voldemort! I think it subject's 2 things: 1) JKR had places to go with Snape but she had no further use for Quirrell. 2) Snape would not willingly help Voldemort, or Dumbledore or anybody else except Snape. Eggplant From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 15:19:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:19:34 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: <003e01c5a300$06644810$0200a8c0@Sharon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137891 Sharon: > Uh Uh - Slughorn returned to Hogwarts because he believed he would be in the most protected place, where DE's couldn't force him to join up. Also, Hogwarts provided opportunity to have fresh young minds looking up to him, after a year in hiding even from his "fans". IE Slughorn was looking after #1 - his own precious fat & pampered butt!! Alla: You know, I have quite mixed feelings about Slughorn. His Slug club gives me creeps for some reason and I agree with you that he first and foremost returned to Hogwarts for protection. But I quite respect him for the fact that he was NOT willing to provide Voldie and Co with his superb potion making skills or skills of any level. He did not want to join and that qualifies him as at least not a bad guy in my eyes. He did not have a strength of character to join OOP and fight? Oh well, at least he never embraced them in the first place ( as far as we know) JMO, Alla. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 15:20:01 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:20:01 -0000 Subject: Why is the prophecy written the way it is? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137892 Well, if "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches" referred to the eavesdropper outside the door then the "Born to those who have thrice defied him etc" and the will be born as the seventh month dies..." part must also otherwise it makes no sense. In fact, if it referred to Snape then the entire prophesy could start and end with "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches", all the rest would be meaningless blather. And besides, it would be rather disappointing after reading 7 books JKR laughed and said she suckered us into reading about the wrong character, the Prophecy had nothing to do with Harry Potter and he was of no importance. Eggplant From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 17 15:23:56 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:23:56 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: <005e01c5a30c$c5109320$16c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137893 > > CathyD: > Sorry, I had to snip your whole post to get to this. Harry didn't > kill Quirrell. Voldemort did. Quirrell was still alive and fighting > Harry for the Stone when Dumbledore arrived. > Gatta: The book doesn't really make it clear what happened. The impression I got was that Quirrel died of contact with Harry, sort of passive killing but killing nonetheless. In any case, we end up with a live Harry and a dead Quirrel, which in most circumstances would take some explaining ("I dunno, officer, he just sort of evilled to death..."). (Isn't "Quirrel" a wonderful name! Anyone who's ever seen a mad squirrel will know exactly what he looks like.) From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 17 15:23:01 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:23:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do the math Re: In-Reply-To: <005a01c5a30b$b1687d70$16c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <005a01c5a30b$b1687d70$16c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <43035655.9090702@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137894 Cathy Drolet wrote: > KJ > > We don't know how long the Potters were in hiding > before Wormtail turned them over to Voldemort > > CathyD > Yes, we do. It was "And then, barely a week after the Fidelius Charm > had been performed -- " (POA 153 Can Ed) CathyD Kathy writes: Good catch! Now that really brings up some questions, doesn't it. Dumbledore, Snape, and Voldemort knew of the prophesy a year before Harry's birth. They must have suspected both Neville and Harry of being the prophesy child by the end of July, a year later, when they were both born. Did Dumbledore not tell the Potters and Longbottoms about the prophesy and that Voldemort might have heard it? Sometime after the births, Voldemort made his decision to kill Harry. Once Snape became aware of which family Voldemort had targeted, he went to Dumbledore. Approximately 1-2 months before the attack, Snape became a teacher, so it was prior to that time that Dumbldore knew that the family targeted was the Potters. Why did it take 1-2 months for Voldemort to attack the Potters before Peter was made Secretkeeper if they were not hiding? Were the Potters not told until a week before they died that Voldemort was after them? What was Voldemort doing to confirm which boy was the one he wanted? Why did he not make his move for 15 months after the boys were born? During what time period did the Potters defy Voldemort three times? Did Voldemort attack those two families three times each during the nearly two and a half years before the attack on GH? Would Dumbledore not have been aware that Voldemort was testing to determine which child was dangerous to him? I know JKR said that Dumbledore plays his cards close to his chest, but this seems a little irresponsible to me. How do you figure this? KJ From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 17 15:48:30 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:48:30 -0000 Subject: Do the math Re: In-Reply-To: <43035655.9090702@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137895 > Kathy writes: > > Good catch! Now that really brings up some questions, doesn't it. > Dumbledore, Snape, and Voldemort knew of the prophesy a year before > Harry's birth. They must have suspected both Neville and Harry of being > the prophesy child by the end of July, a year later, when they were both > born. Did Dumbledore not tell the Potters and Longbottoms about the > prophesy and that Voldemort might have heard it? Sometime after the > births, Voldemort made his decision to kill Harry. Once Snape became > aware of which family Voldemort had targeted, he went to Dumbledore. > Approximately 1-2 months before the attack, Snape became a teacher, so > it was prior to that time that Dumbldore knew that the family targeted > was the Potters. Why did it take 1-2 months for Voldemort to attack the > Potters before Peter was made Secretkeeper if they were not hiding? Were > the Potters not told until a week before they died that Voldemort was > after them? What was Voldemort doing to confirm which boy was the one he > wanted? Why did he not make his move for 15 months after the boys were > born? Cheryl writes: 15 months does seem like a long time. Perhaps at first he was trying to find out everyone to whom the prophecy might apply, and then perhaps he wanted to make his move specifically on October 31. Maybe Halloween seemed like an auspicious time for him (and that begs the question if he perhaps was, as Dumbledore thought, planning on making a horcrux with Harry's murder). Why wait until the next October 31? Maybe it took longer to figure out which family to target, and then perhaps LV didn't feel the need to rush, as a baby certainly wouldn't seem like an immediate threat to LV -- perhaps he assumed that if this child posed a threat, it would be when he grew older. Nobody in the books has mentioned previous attempts on Harry's or Neville's families, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen -- and yet, it seems like they would have been in hiding sooner if previous attempts had been made. Perhaps someone reported back to Dumbledore that Voldemort was planning to make his move soon before the attempt and that is the reason the fidelius charm was put in place only a week or so before GH. Cheryl From alisondd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 16:01:10 2005 From: alisondd at yahoo.com (Alison D) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:01:10 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > What do you mean "if it comes down to that"? Once Snape made that > Unbreakable Vow it HAD to come down to that. And Dumbledore couldn't > have ordered him to make it because until 10 minutes before even Snape > didn't know anybody would ask him to make such a vow. He made it to > get Bellatrix off his back at no cost because he was only vowing to do > what he would have done anyway. > > > Eggplant Snape could have known that he would be asked to take the Unbreakable Vow, his skills at mind reading have been emphasised. Isn't it possible that until the moment Narcissa and Bellatrix walked in Snape had no idea about Voldemort's plan for Draco and that he simply garnered the information when it floated to the forefront of Narcissa or Bellatrix mind, it would have been easy considering their highly agitated emotional state. I don't know about proximity and mind reading, but it is possible Snape knew what to expect before they even entered his dwelling. Alison From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Aug 17 16:01:17 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:01:17 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > "So in fact, this *is* the real Horcrux, but he has transfigured > it to look like a fake horcrux and put that note in it to mislead > anyone who found it?" > "I rather think he has, Harry." > > So, I there you have it. RAB is *not* Regulus Black. No-one had to > find the cave. That whiz-bang potion is Voldemort's. Harry has the > real Horcrux!Locket. It's not important where the unopenable locket > in Grimauld Place is, and the whole Mung thing is either a red > herring or part of another plot thread. IMO, if it is relevant at > all, Harry will finally track it down and find that it is no snake > on it, which may prompt him to think again about the locket that he > has. Where is there any canon for any of this? We have no proof of Voldemort making anything else false. Why would the locket be false? Furthermore, you contend: > No-one had to find the cave. How else would the locket be found; that is, the fake locket which you are now contending is real? How would it be retrieved from the basin in the lake if there was no need to go to the cave? > Also, according to DD, only Voldemort, DD and Harry (possibly > Slughorn)know that Voldemort has made more than one Horcrux. The > note reinforces the idea that there is only one horcrux out there, > and if imaginary RAB had destroyed it, then whoever found the fake > one, if they survived, would be tempted to try and kill Voldemort, > thus breaking their cover and revealing themselves as his enemy. I > think this might help solve the puzzle of the potion. But that > needs thinking about Actually, from his speech to the Death Eaters in the graveyard in GoF, it is clear that not only do some or all of the DEs know about the idea of a Horcrux, it is logical to infer, from the canon, that they know there are multiple Horcruxes. He says to them (paraphrase follows): "You, who know better than any, what I have done. I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality." > It always puzzled me why JKR deliberately had both Harry and > Dumbledore not have time to notice the locket. For me, as a reader, > the discovery of the fake!horcrux did not sit well *after* DDs > death. I was so blown out by his death, that I found the discovery > of the Horcrux almost annoying in taking my attention away from it. > But, now it makes sense to me, because DD would always have > suspected the locket to be the real one and would have told Harry > so. Well, first of all, the discovery that the locket is fake is revealed at that point in the story line for maximum dramatic impact. Second, neither of them look at the locket because of the life and death nature of their quest: Dumbledore is dying as they return to Hogwarts, and Harry is not going waste even precious seconds on the locket as Dumbledore is more important to him--to his heart. Once they get to Hogsmeade, they see the Dark Mark, and their first thought is for the possible dead Hogwarts student or faculty/staff member. Obviously during the scene with Draco and the ensuing fight and then Harry's pursuit of Snape, there is no time to stop and look at the locket. And Harry, in his grief and shock, only remembers the locket because he kneels on it. I think it's entirely understandable that the locket is forgotten in the life and death events that begin once Dumbledore has finished drinking the potion. > Following my thoughts down the line of Voldemort transfiguring the > Real Horcrux!Locket, to look like a fake one. Should we assume that > ALL the remaining Horcruxes have been disguised in this way, to look > like something innocent? If so, then Hufflepuff's cup could well be > at Hogwarts ? somewhere in the Trophy Room maybe. The Tom Riddle > Award for Special Services to the School (nice ironic twist), or > maybe the Quidditch Cup or the House Cup. Is the trophy room on the > way to DDs office from the main door? What canon is there for any of these contentions? IMO they are entirely unsupported. Why would only the remaining Horcruxes be transfigured? Why wouldn't Voldemort, someone relatively organized and focused, have not done that to all of them to ensure secrecy? Where has he ever done anything like this before? In addition, there is only one volume left in the series. Book 7 is going to be relatively straightforward: Harry IDs the last Horcurx, Harry finds all of them and destroys them, Harry has his last meeting with Voldemort. From a literary point of view, this is an entirely satisfying framework. All of the clues we need are are pretty much in the 6 books, and JKR will take Harry--and us--through all of them as the series wraps up. There is a simple, elegant outline and process at work in the first 6 books (although HPB was a bit more ungainly with all of the (necessary to be sure) exposition). Why would she suddenly now add a clumsy, convoluted story which adds nothing to the emotional richness of having Harry solve all of these mysteries with the information he has at hand? If all of the Horcruxes Dumbledore told Harry to look for are wrong, how is Harry, working with the information he has, going to figure it out? JKR is not going to introduce huge amounts of expository backstory in Book 7- -that is what HBP was for. She's said that we should kind of think of 6 & 7 as 2 parts of the same book. So in 6 we get tons of backstory and in 7 we get the resolution of the plot. It is not going to be super complicated or unnecessarily convoluted. > Or is it one of the objects > in DDs office ? remember that sleight of hand that Voldemort made as > he was leaving, which Harry interpreted as an attempt to go for his > wand? Wouldn't the office of his enemy be a great place to hide his > Horcrux, - very significant to Voldemort? What actual proof do we have from canon that any sort of spell was done in DD's office that day? Apart from the fact that to assume so contradicts the rest of the series to date, it's also important to remember that DD could see invisible signs of magic where they were. > I know timelines are not helpful here. Voldemort came back to > Hogwarts, 10 years after he supposedly managed to get hold of the > cup. > > How does this impact on the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor horcrux? It doesn't. Based on the canon--that is, based on the way JKR has structred 6 of the 7 books pubished--the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor Horcrux is going to be an item we've already seen. > Dumbledore just said he found the ring in Marvolo's house. He never > got to tell Harry the story, was that because he didn't find the > ring in its real form, and plotwise, telling Harry that vital bit of > information would have given the game away? ? If JKR had Dumbledore tell us that he found the ring qua ring, why would we doubt him? What canon do we have that DD dissembles or lies to Harry? > So now I'm chasing, what is the significance of the RAB note if > Voldemort himself wrote it. And could Harry use the locket as a > double bluff on Voldemort to serve his purposes. i.e. Harry destroys > all the Horcruxes, including the locket, but having destroyed the > Horcrux!Locket, transfigures it back to look like the fake one. > Goes to Voldemort with fake looking locket and says ? Hah, I've > discovered your secret, now you are mortal, I can kill you. > Voldemort laughs, thinking that he has fooled Harry into believing > that there was only one Horcrux and then ..what? Why would Harry go through all this effort? Why would Harry even tell Voldemort, from a strategic POV, either that he's discovered the secret of the Horcruxes or that he's destroyed them all (save for the moment we see VM dying)? Why would JKR add all of this to a story which is already jam-packed with details? > OK, this is an easy starting point. I did not really mean to say > that Voldemort meant `really any-body' when he wrote RAB. I just > needed to put something in there to get the theory off the ground > and that was the first thing that came to mind. That the letters > RAB, are an acronym rather than someone's initials, occurred to me > really early on, and I think, that in the context of this theory, an > acronym would be more appropriate. However, you're right, to date I > can think of nothing that they could stand for. Although, as has > been pointed out on the list, many times, if we are talking about > Regulus, what does the A stand for. So this is a problem for both > sides of the camp. Regulus (and Sirius) had an uncle called Alphard. It is not uncommon for nieces and nephews to hold the given names of their aunts/uncles as their middle names. Furthermore, Alphard is a star in the constellation Hydra, and is in fact, the heart of the Snake. I think it's pretty clear that R.A.B. is Regulus Alphrad Black. JKR is either surprised in that interview that people could figure it out so quickly OR, more likely IMO, pleased that her readers understand what she is doing and are able to follow and play the game along with her. > What does Harry do when he sees the locket and the note, he > immediately assumes it is worthless. Can you not see Voldemort's > contempt, that Harry sees only what is on the outside, and does not > penetrate beyond it. Just like the people around Voldemort at the > time who took him to be so charming and so helpful, and could not > see, to him, the Real, Powerful Voldemort underneath, they were > beneath his contempt. > > The diary is also very ordinary looking. The importance to > Voldemort is not in what it looks like, but in its significance. If > he was concerned about looks, then - Mirror, mirror on the wall, who > is the fairest ? I rest my case about looking good. Except--the diary looked ordinary only from the outside. Once you opened it you saw it was blank, which was peculiar. What was even more peculiar about it is that it "talked" to you. That is not ordinary. The locket at #12 is not ordinary--no one could open it. And as the group of people who tried to open it included a number of adults fairly well-versed in magic, that is not ordinary. At the same time, the fake Horcrux locket opened immediately. (I know you posited that the slip of paper might have contained the soul, but why would Voldemort entrust his soul to something a gust of wind could carry off? It is not logical.) > Just had another thought, re Valky's idea that Lily was intended to > be a living Horcrux. She was in Gryffindor, Head Girl, brilliant > student ? a living example of the perfect Gryffindor. Anyway > Horcrux!Lily has always been a bit of a left-field theory, but I > really do like it! But there is a method to JKR's madness. The founder-related items are actual, discrete, items which were literal possessions of the 4 founders. Why would one of them not fit the mold? I understand that details can be interpreted in many ways (the way JKR has so very carefully constructed Snape's character being her most brilliant example). But IMO there is a big difference between using details from the canon to buttress an argument and taking one detail, out of context, and spinning a huge story about it. Maybe I'm wrong and confused because I thought that this list was for discussing canon and to me that theories about what happens are firmly grounded in patterns, details, descriptions, and events of what has gone before. It is only my opinion, but it is a pretty unshakable one: we are not going to have any more long expository passages in book 7. There is no space in the story for any more backstory or convoluted ways to get from Point A to Point B. JKR's work (despite a Flint here or there on the secondary details, which are not crucial to the story arc) is tightly plotted, woven together, and most importantly, highly and precisely logical. IMO not to recognize that, and not to play the game she has set forth for us within the constraints she has so very carefully constructed, is to seriously undervalue what she has done. Obviously all of the above is my opinion, and the mileage of others will no doubt vary. jujube From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Wed Aug 17 15:43:58 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:43:58 +0200 Subject: Do the math In-Reply-To: <43035655.9090702@telus.net> References: <005a01c5a30b$b1687d70$16c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> <43035655.9090702@telus.net> Message-ID: <43035B3E.5000005@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 137898 >Kathy writes: > > Good catch! Now that really brings up some questions, doesn't it. >Dumbledore, Snape, and Voldemort knew of the prophesy a year before >Harry's birth. They must have suspected both Neville and Harry of being >the prophesy child by the end of July, a year later, when they were both >born. Did Dumbledore not tell the Potters and Longbottoms about the >prophesy and that Voldemort might have heard it? Sometime after the >births, Voldemort made his decision to kill Harry. Once Snape became >aware of which family Voldemort had targeted, he went to Dumbledore. > > Didn't he go to Voldemort first though and tell him about the prophecy? What I don't get it is why he did this, if he's supposed to be on the 'good side'. I mean that would mean: 1. Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy 2. Snape tries to figure out who the child is 3. Once he has found this out, he tells Dumbledore 4. Dumbledore asks why on earth Snape told Voldemort in the first place! Or no? Fabian From paula.dickson at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 16:39:32 2005 From: paula.dickson at gmail.com (Paula Dickson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:39:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's opinion of Snape References: Message-ID: <008501c5a34a$4375ace0$6501a8c0@Dickson> No: HPFGUIDX 137899 Brothergib: Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban." >From the mouth of JKR herself! Does suggest that Snape would not willingly help Voldemort! That leaves us with Good Snape or Snape Only Out to Help Himself!! It is possible that Snape has bided his time before killing DD, and now knows he can use Harry to help him destroy Voldemort. I am still in the Good Snape camp though!! Paula: OK...this is one that I'm having trouble with.... Just because Severus wouldn't ever wear a turban doesn't mean that his alleigience doesn't lie with him. I think Severus has just enough 'favor' with LV that he wants to keep him around quietly (or at least semi-quietly) so taht he can glean information from him. I believe there is 'SOMETHING' that connects Severus and LV. There is some kind of bond there that is more than just a minion/master thing. HBP brought the suprise of Severus actually being the HBP. There are only two sides that Severus can take...Harry's or LV's. It's a good theory that Snape is only out for himself, but I have trouble with thinking that he would take out a many years long vendetta against James by lashing out at Harry. Unless there's more to it than JKR has told us in canon I really don't think childhood pranks cause *That* much damage to ones mental health. I honestly can't think of any other reason he would be so nasty to Harry, other than a stewing hatred of James. What I want to know is, Why did DD allow Severus to treat Harry so nastily...surely he KNEW about the mis-treatment. His mis-treatment of Harry aside from the fact that Harry is James's son would lead me to believe that Snape is, and has always been on the side of LV. Severus afterall does gain quite a bit of knowledge about Harry and where he stands during and after the occlumemency lessons. Severus also has the luxury of being at Hogwarts for most of the year...meaning that if his allegience lies with LV, he is gaining LOADS of information that he can report back to LV. I just cannot see Severus as a 'good guy'. I think he did one heck of a good job fooling DD into thinking he is, but there's been too much interference by Severus for me to think his allegience lies on DDs side. I do think Severus had a hand in the events that unfolded at Godric's Hollow. I think he took great joy in witnessing the events that transpired there. I also think he had something to do with the events that led up to Sirius being sent to Azkaban. I've no firm canon reference to lead in this direction, it's just a gut feeling. But, All that said, I think Severus did a mighty good job in fooling DD and the rest that he was on their side. I just think there is too much hate in him to be on the 'good side'. I dunno....these are just random thoughts that I had after contemplating a few of the posts I've read. Paula From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 17 17:03:20 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:03:20 -0000 Subject: Do the math In-Reply-To: <43035B3E.5000005@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137900 Fabian: > Didn't he go to Voldemort first though and tell him about the prophecy? > What I don't get it is why he did this, if he's supposed to be on the > 'good side'. I mean that would mean: > 1. Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy > 2. Snape tries to figure out who the child is > 3. Once he has found this out, he tells Dumbledore > 4. Dumbledore asks why on earth Snape told Voldemort in the first place! Potioncat: DD said in HBP that the eavesdropper was in LV's employ. It crossed my mind that he could also already be in DD's as well...or not. But the first half of the prophecy does not make it clear that the one will be born soon. It says born to those who thrice defied, and as the 7th month dies. But it wasn't clear that it wasn't a child or adult already born. The last half of the prophecy says "will be born". So LV may have been looking at adult or young adult wizards who had been born in July. So, in August or so, Snape is reading the Daily Prophet between Muggle baiting and Poisen-potion brewing and sees the birth announcements for July. He says to himself, "Blimey! It's Lovely Lily's child that will do in the Boss." LV in the mean time tells Snape to go get a job with DD so that he can bring in more info. So Snape, now having a cover, goes to DD and tells all. Or not. From prep0strus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 17:14:08 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:14:08 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses (was:Re: Slughorn a dead end topic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > She also points out that Ron has Hufflepuff tendencies (which > feature in GoF), Hermione has Ravenclaw tendencies (which feature in > OotP), and Harry has Slytherin tendencies (which he brings to the > forefront in HBP). So there's your appealing Slytherin. :) > > I think JKR is suggesting that each house has a certain skill or > strength, held by each member of the Trio, that will be needed to > defeat Voldemort. Gryffindor bravery is certainly key, but it will > also take loyalty, intelligence and cunning. Fortunately Harry and > Ron and Hermione form a beautifully well-rounded crew. > > (I think this is further suggested by the houses being linked to the > four elements. Each element is necessary in maintaining a stable > structure.) Ok, I don't know how to use 'snips', and don't often respond in pieces to posts, because I find it more confusing, but I thought I'd try this time. I certainly agree that the main characters could easily represent the different houses. Neville usually comes to mind before Ron as a Hufflepuff, but Ron certainly makes sense, especially as a member of the trio. It's Harry I find as representing Slytherin to be the most difficult - sure, the hat said he would do well there - if he was ambitious. But Harry isn't that ambitious. He has developed more of a desire to be an auror, because of his past, but I would still consider Hermione more ambitious than he is. Also, Harry doesn't often fall into the 'cunning' category. But, as I said before, neither do many members of Slytherin - Crabbe & Goyle at the forefront. It's more that I don't understand the purpose of the houses if they're not going to represent what they're supposed to, or what the hat has led us to believe they're supposed to. Gryffindor is for the brave, sure, so that allows characters that represent other qualities to be included as well. Ravenclaws are studious and smart, and while we haven't seen too much studying from Luna, maybe it's just because we haven't seen too much of Luna in class or the Ravenclaw common room, but it's a pretty obvious distinction. Hufflepuff & Slytherin seem to break down a bit more. Hufflepuff is for the 'loyal', the 'hardworking', and the 'rest' (those not fitting into the other 3 houses). The first two descriptions I could accept, but the 'rest' leaves a bad taste. With a cursory glance, the 4 houses could be described as thus: The Good, The Bad, The Smart, and The Useless. And the 'bad', the Slytherin... that seems to be the only qualifying factor. The main characteristics we've been given for them are ambitious, self-serving, and 'teaching those whose blood is purest'. That last doesn't come true - and the hat should be able to tell that. And the others shouldn't necessarily leave out any appealing people (i'll talk about that briefly below). But Crabbe & Goyle, I think I'd put in Hufflepuff if it wasn't for them being 'the bad'. They're 'loyal', and the 'rest', if not hardworking. But hardworking would leave out our Ronny as a metaphor for Hufflepuff as well. > Betsy Hp: I think we > saw some serious signs of good Slytherins (and I love that this is > plural). Slughorn is an obvious choice. Sure, he's no saint, but > he's no devil either. (And frankly, the Potterverse is pretty > lacking in saints. Even Dumbledore has a few warts.) And he > certainly seems to be on Harry's side. Draco is shaping up to be a > very good candidate, IMO. His words with Dumbledore, his lowering > of his wand, his disassociating from the other Death Eaters should > have interesting repercussions in the next book. And, of course, if > Snape is good, then he's very, very, good. So there's another > candidate. > > Harry, himself, embraced his Slytherin side (appearently a little > bit of his mother in him) and found it quite useful. He used it to > help Ron out with his quidditch, and he used it to get the memory > out of Slughorn. > > Frankly, I think Harry's own Slytherin-ness will come into play in > the last book as well. As will Hermione's Ravenclaw-ness, and Ron's > Hufflepuff-ness. Though I'm sure representatives of each house will > also play some sort of part, even a minor one, in hunting down the > Horcruxes, what with there being four horcuxes to be found and > destroyed. Again, I've gotten myself in trouble with using the word 'good' in that first post. I do believe Slughorn to be on the side of good, and will not be surprised at all if Snape is as well, or if Draco joins up. What I mean to say, I guess, is 'appealing', though that's a bit subjective. I want a Slytherin I can LIKE. Snape, even if he is as good as the biggest Snape supporters believe, that from the moment he joined Dumbledore he has been fighting Voldemort w/ all his being... he's still a jerk. Same with Draco. And Slughorn, who is the 'nicest' Slytherin we've encountered, still leaves me with bad feelings. All these characters may wind up being 'Good', but will they be 'Nice'? Will they be characters you want to be friends with? And while there may be real points to be made regarding Harry's Slytherin tendencies, Harry is Gryffindor. If he were a Slytherin hero, that might be interesting. But he's not, he's a Gryffindor who could have qualities that would make a good Slytherin. And so JRK has yet to provide (me) a Slytherin to like. A Slytherin that makes me see not only goodness, but niceness. Slughorn may be the closest, and as a character, he is interesting, and I love his place in the books. But that doesn't mean I would want to be buddies with him. Through Harry we see the self serving elitism that is exclusive, unkind, and distasteful. I actually really like your answer about 'Book 7', though I tend to doubt I will find the kind've Slytherin I'm interested in, or the explination that haunts me about the houses. I really love the minor characters, exploring the kids who wound up in the other houses (and even our other Gryffindors). After 5, and the DA, I really thought we seem some serious exploring of them in HBP, and was a little disappointed. I tend to doubt, with everything else that needs to happen, that we'll see too much of it in 7 either. I can always look forward to the Encyclopedia - JKR says she has backgrounds on every kid in Harry's class. ~Prep0strus From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 17:46:34 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:46:34 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137902 "Alison D" wrote: > Snape could have known that he > would be asked to take the > Unbreakable Vow, his skills at mind reading have been emphasised. > Isn't it possible that until the > moment Narcissa and Bellatrix > walked in Snape had no idea about > Voldemort's plan for Draco and > that he simply garnered the > information when it floated to the > forefront of Narcissa or Bellatrix > mind, it would have been easy > considering their highly agitated > emotional state. I don't know > about proximity and mind reading, > but it is possible Snape knew what > to expect before they even entered > his dwelling. So Snape read her mind and knew she would ask him to make a Unbreakable Vow in a few minutes, so he quickly told Dumbledore who said "Oh goody goody gumdrop, just make sure you actually make that Unbreakable Vow to kill me Severus, it will help our side big time if our most powerful wizard dies". Ah, the contortions Snape lovers go through to maintain their preconceptions despite the new book is a sight to behold. However I think it is often wise to alter your views when you receive new information, like the fact that Snape murdered Dumbledore. And yet we're still debating if he's evil! I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw, a judge tells a defendant, "You are charged with murdering your wife so you could marry your sister, how do you plead?" the defendant responds "Guilty, with an explanation". Eggplant From prep0strus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 17:46:52 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:46:52 -0000 Subject: Slughorn a dead end topic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > Hickengruendler: > > What about Harry? The Hat wanted to send him into Slytherin. Okay, > Harry chose Gryffindor in the end. But nonetheless, as the Hat said, > he would have done well in Slytherin. And even though it was meant as > a contrast to Tom Riddle's choice, Harry still showed many Slytherin > traits during the books, (as did Hermione, by the way), and many of > them helped him in his adventures or even in his daily routine. Yeah, I phrased that badly as well... maybe some characters COULD be in Slytherin, but they aren't. No appealing character IS in Slytherin. Slytherin qualities are one thing, but to BE in Slytherin in JKR's world, it seems being unpleasant is more important that blood lineage, ambition, or cunning. We've been told Harry could've been in Slytherin, but we haven't been shown a character we're meant to really like that is actually IN Slytherin. And while I agree with most of what you said about Slughorn, I still don't like him as a person (as a character, I do). He's not evil, and he's not even 'mean' exactly. But he's not the kind've guy that I want to be friends with - or that Harry wants to associate with. A self important, elitist oaf. (IMO). I babbled on a little bit more about what I meant about a nice Slytherin in another post along this thread (name changed, I believe, to something about the importance of houses) ~Prep0strus From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 17 18:08:35 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:08:35 -0000 Subject: What Iffing for Book 7 (was: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137904 Saraquel: > > Or is it one of the objects in DDs office ? remember that sleight > > of hand that Voldemort made as he was leaving, which Harry > > interpreted as an attempt to go for his wand? Wouldn't the office > > of his enemy be a great place to hide his Horcrux, - very > > significant to Voldemort? jujube: > What actual proof do we have from canon that any sort of spell was > done in DD's office that day? Apart from the fact that to assume so > contradicts the rest of the series to date, it's also important to > remember that DD could see invisible signs of magic where they were. SSSusan: On this issue, I don't think Saraquel is saying she *has* proof. I think the whole point is... What ABOUT this movement that Harry noticed? Why was it mentioned? COULD it mean something? What MIGHT it mean? "What ifs" and "I wonders" are a part of reading, when one has "Sneaky Jo" in mind. Saraquel: > > Just had another thought, re Valky's idea that Lily was intended > > to be a living Horcrux. She was in Gryffindor, Head Girl, > > brilliant student ? a living example of the perfect Gryffindor. > > Anyway Horcrux!Lily has always been a bit of a left-field theory, > > but I really do like it! jujube: > But there is a method to JKR's madness. The founder-related items > are actual, discrete, items which were literal possessions of the 4 > founders. Why would one of them not fit the mold? SSSusan: I'll grant you that it may well be *likely* that it will play out as "literal possessions of the 4 founders." And I don't particularly care for Horcrux!Lily myself [nor Horcrux!Harry for that matter]. But the point, as I see it, is, WHAT IF DD was wrong? Mention *was* made in HBP that DD has made mistakes... and that he himself said (paraphrasing) that when they happen, since he is so talented/brilliant, the mistakes tend to be, correspondingly, doozies. So *what if* DD was wrong about the Horcruxes? We're given an "in" to the possibility that he could be wrong, both from the above- mentioned remark about mistakes and from the fact that DD didn't seem to notice that the locket was a fake. So with these two juicy tidbits, "I wonder..." comes up for a lot of members here. For many, THAT'S the fun of the game ? trying to out-guess Jo, trying to get there ahead of the actual revelations. While it may be that this is *not* a place where DD will turn out to be wrong, and while it may be that DD didn't notice the fake locket just because there wasn't time to have done so, it's also possible that these are indications (hints, if you will) that we should consider whether DD is right about the Horcruxes. jujube: > I understand that details can be interpreted in many ways (the way > JKR has so very carefully constructed Snape's character being her > most brilliant example). But IMO there is a big difference between > using details from the canon to buttress an argument and taking one > detail, out of context, and spinning a huge story about it. Maybe > I'm wrong and confused because I thought that this list was for > discussing canon and to me that theories about what happens are > firmly grounded in patterns, details, descriptions, and events of > what has gone before. SSSusan: Well, the BEST theories (in terms of likelihood of being proven out) certainly *will* take into account details, patterns & events which have come before. But not everything has been predictable based upon past details, patterns & events. So for some members of HPfGU, it may be understandably fun to consider "outlandish" possibilities, possibilities for "IF Jo is tricking us here...." To me, there is nothing wrong with that! Other members are free to disagree, to ignore or to gently ask for canon support. But as long as the theorizer is building upon canon, basing his/her position on a segment of canon, it seems fair game to me. jujube: > It is only my opinion, but it is a pretty unshakable one: we are not > going to have any more long expository passages in book 7. There is > no space in the story for any more backstory or convoluted ways to > get from Point A to Point B. JKR's work (despite a Flint here or > there on the secondary details, which are not crucial to the story > arc) is tightly plotted, woven together, and most importantly, > highly and precisely logical. IMO not to recognize that, and not to > play the game she has set forth for us within the constraints she > has so very carefully constructed, is to seriously undervalue what > she has done. SSSusan: Oh, I for one certainly hope you're wrong in this. ;-) Jo's barely begun to write Book 7. Certainly she's said very little, in terms of specifics, about how Book 7 will play out, except that she *has* indicated lots of loose ends will be tied up. I think exposition *will* be a part of it. I think backstory *will* come in ? and not just on Snape joining/leaving the DEs and on Godric's Hollow. I think there will be more on Peter Pettigrew and how he got where he got in VW I and in VW II. I think there will be more about DD, as JKR has indicated consideration of his family background would be fruitful. I hope there will be revelation about the missing 24 hours. We're yet to discover just *why* there's something important about which Hogwarts staff members are/were married. And on & on. Whether or not one considers Jo to have been highly & precisely logical in her plotting, I do not believe one can argue that a more fanciful or outlandish theory has to be written off! Who would have guessed about Crouch!Moody? As it was written, as it turned out, it was logical in retrospect. It fit, it worked, it came together. But before we had GoF in our hands, how many considered this a possibility for how it might play out? Probably no one! How do we know, now, what things are REALLY "far out?" I do not think JKR has set this up as a game with specific constraints! Now & again she will give us information in an interview or at her site which helps us see where we might be going too far afield, but other than that, which of us can actually say what is off limits for a theory? Each of us is certainly free to say, "Nope, not buying THAT" or to delete with a scoff. But I think it's fun to see just what kinds of possibilities HPfGUers can come up with, even if they seem fanciful or unlikely to others. And I just don't see how that undermines what JKR has done. On the contrary, I believe it is a compliment to her. Siriusly Snapey Susan From alisondd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 18:12:46 2005 From: alisondd at yahoo.com (Alison D) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:12:46 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "Alison D" wrote: > > > > Snape could have known that he > > would be asked to take the > > Unbreakable Vow, his skills at > mind reading have been emphasised. > > Isn't it possible that until the > > moment Narcissa and Bellatrix > > walked in Snape had no idea about > > Voldemort's plan for Draco and > > that he simply garnered the > > information when it floated to the > > forefront of Narcissa or Bellatrix > > mind, it would have been easy > > considering their highly agitated > > emotional state. I don't know > > about proximity and mind reading, > > but it is possible Snape knew what > > to expect before they even entered > > his dwelling. > > So Snape read her mind and knew she would ask him to make a > Unbreakable Vow in a few minutes, so he quickly told Dumbledore who > said "Oh goody goody gumdrop, just make sure you actually make that > Unbreakable Vow to kill me Severus, it will help our side big time if > our most powerful wizard dies". > > Ah, the contortions Snape lovers go through to maintain their > preconceptions despite the new book is a sight to behold. However I > think it is often wise to alter your views when you receive new > information, like the fact that Snape murdered Dumbledore. And yet > we're still debating if he's evil! I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw, a > judge tells a defendant, "You are charged with murdering your wife so > you could marry your sister, how do you plead?" the defendant responds > "Guilty, with an explanation". > > Eggplant Well, as that was my first post I'm not sure how you discerned I was a Snape supporter or lover, but I appreciate your cheek as it was most helpful in furthering the discussion. Now, I can't recall stating that Snape informed Dumbledore, nor do I recall invoking the name of Dumbledore at all in my statement. But,often people find it easier to focus on a singular event to keep nailing their point home, this appears to be the case with your statement, as it all comes down to the uncompromising evilness of Snape. I also was not aware that mind reading involved hours and hours of processing, perhaps you are better versed on the realities of this fictional construct. I would imagine though, if the thought is their and Snape is able to read minds he simply ingests the information on the spot. At least it seems that way to me in the few scenes we have witnessed Snape reading minds. Finally, if everyone conformed to your views the use of the word debate would become mute. The beauty of perception is that each individual is entitled to their own, almost like and opinion . . . interesting. Alison From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 18:15:02 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:15:02 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137906 jujube: > Actually, from his speech to the Death Eaters in the graveyard in > GoF, it is clear that not only do some or all of the DEs know > about the idea of a Horcrux, it is logical to infer, from the > canon, that they know there are multiple Horcruxes. He says to > them (paraphrase follows): "You, who know better than any, what I > have done. I, who have gone further than anybody along the path > that leads to immortality." Jen: It doesn't appear the DE's do know the extent of Voldemort's plan involving the Horcruxes, at least not the group at the graveyard. Here's the exact quote in GOF: "What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal--to conquer death. And now, I was tested, aand it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..." (chap. 33, p. 653, US). Pretty vague statement there and Voldemort doesn't say the DE's 'know better than anybody'. Backing this up with even more canon, Dumbledore says this in HBP: "Then you told me, two yeas later, that on the night that Voldemort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his Death Eater's. 'I who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality.' That was what you told me he said.....And I thought I knew what that meant, **though the Death Eaters did not**. He was referring to his Horcruxes, Horcruxes in the plural." (chap. 23, pps. 502-503, US). jujube: > In addition, there is only one volume left in the series. Book 7 > is going to be relatively straightforward: Harry IDs the last > Horcurx, Harry finds all of them and destroys them, Harry has his > last meeting with Voldemort. From a literary point of view, this > is an entirely satisfying framework. All of the clues we need are > are pretty much in the 6 books, and JKR will take Harry--and us-- >through all of them as the series wraps up. There is a simple, > elegant outline and process at work in the first 6 books (although > HPB was a bit more ungainly with all of the (necessary to be sure) > exposition). Why would she suddenly now add a clumsy, convoluted > story which adds nothing to the emotional richness of having Harry >solve all of these mysteries with the information he has at hand? > I understand that details can be interpreted in many ways (the way > JKR has so very carefully constructed Snape's character being her > most brilliant example). But IMO there is a big difference > between using details from the canon to buttress an argument and > taking one detail, out of context, and spinning a huge story about > it. Maybe I'm wrong and confused because I thought that this list > was for discussing canon and to me that theories about what > happens are firmly grounded in patterns, details, descriptions, > and events of what has gone before. Jen: And why does it matter if some of us want to explore and theorize about interesting plot twists if we use canon as a basis as Saraquel has done? Having a little fun with canon is not banned here. I was unable to link to the Humongous Bigfile at the moment, but when I started posting the rule was you had to make at least one canon point in your argument. Yes, the argument has to be tied to canon, but extrapolation is also allowed. (If an Elf reading this feels I'm in error, please correct me!). One apparent hole in HBP that has yet to be answered is how someone else found the cave before Dumbledore. It's clear *in canon* that Dumbledore was the only person in the WW who has spent time researching Riddle's past, his magical style, his rise to Lord Voldemort and his research into and formation of Horcruxes. Based on that canon, *no one* should have been able to get to that locket Horcrux before Dumbledore did. RAB did. So there's a hole there that isn't explained yet. Saraquel is merely filling the hole, IMO. Whether you agree with her theory is very different from saying she isn't using canon as a basis for her argument. Also, just for the record, my opinion is that HBP was not ungainly in its exposition. I personally was enthralled, wanted to know more about Voldemort, wanted to hear more explanations from Dumbledore. Two people, reading the exact same canon, with two different opinions. I tend to agree with you that Book 7 will be straighforward as JKR needs to wrap up the story, and JKR makes it clear Harry's headed in the direction outlined in HBP. But she also gives hope for a few plot twists, for those of us interested in that sort of frivolity ;) (from the TLC/Mugglenet interview): MA: "Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what Harry's setting out to do, but can this really be the entire throughline of the rest of the story?" JKR: "It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be extremely an torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got to do. Harry now knows ? well he believe he knows ? what he's facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, `There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do." ***************** jujube: > Obviously all of the above is my opinion, and the mileage of > others will no doubt vary. Jen: Yes, it will vary, and more than that, it's allowed. From Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za Wed Aug 17 06:55:27 2005 From: Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za (Cairie Witter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:55:27 +0200 Subject: repeating courses at Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137907 Liz: > Are students allowed to retake OWLs for passing grades and if > so, do they have to repeat the year or just the exam? Would > there be any incentive to do so? I'm wondering about Harry and > History of Magic when he had the vision of Sirius... My thoughts on this one is: I think that the repeat on an exam wasn't mentioned, because neither Harry or Ron wanted to rewrite the exam. Maybe, if they both did very badly in their OWLS it would have been a different matter. Cairie. From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 17 18:42:12 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:42:12 -0000 Subject: Do the math In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137908 > Potioncat: > LV in the mean time tells Snape to go get a job with > DD so that he can bring in more info. So Snape, now > having a cover, goes to DD and tells > all. Or not. houyhnhnm: Why in the mean time? Snape is not at the Hogshead to overhear the prophecy. No one knows it is going to be made. He's there to apply for a job at Hogwarts. 1. Sometime between the spring of 1979 and the summer 1980--("I say nothing, " she choked [fall 1995]"of sixteen years devoted service..." "In spidery writing was written a date of some sixteen years previously"[June 1996]) Snape goes to Hogsmeade to apply for a job at Hogwarts on Voldemorts orders. He hears the first half of the prophecy and reports back to Voldemort. 2. July, 1980--Harry and Neville are born weeks, months or up to a year later. 3. October 31, 1981--James and Lily Potter are murdered in Godric's Hollow. Voldemort's downfall as a result of the rebounding curse. Sometime between (2) and (3), Harry is identified as the child of the prophecy. (Wormtail could very easily have provided the information.) A plot on the lives of the Potters is formed. Snape goes *back* to Dumbledore, either sincerely repentent or feigning repentence, depending on your point of view, and offers to turn spy for the order. Dumbledore gives him a job at Hogwarts as the potions master. From ShylahM at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 19:13:54 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (Shylah) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:13:54 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <403e946f0508171213234bf244@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137909 > eggplant107 wrote: > > So Snape read her mind and knew she would ask him to make a > Unbreakable Vow in a few minutes, so he quickly told Dumbledore who > said "Oh goody goody gumdrop, just make sure you actually make that > Unbreakable Vow to kill me Severus, it will help our side big time if > our most powerful wizard dies". > > Ah, the contortions Snape lovers go through to maintain their > preconceptions despite the new book is a sight to behold. However I > think it is often wise to alter your views when you receive new > information, like the fact that Snape murdered Dumbledore. And yet > we're still debating if he's evil! I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw, a > judge tells a defendant, "You are charged with murdering your wife so > you could marry your sister, how do you plead?" the defendant responds > "Guilty, with an explanation". > > Eggplant Tanya now I agree, that action is going to be very hard to get around, if not impossible in the wider WW. However I am hovering on neutral as I am expecting twists. Still, the logical next step for evil Snape is to have a few words with LV, and book 7 open with LV squirreling all his Horcruxes back, doing a 'head' count and plotting to recover what was lost by making more. Not including the diary which he already knows about. Tanya From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Wed Aug 17 19:38:22 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:38:22 -0000 Subject: Do the math In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137910 > houyhnhnm: > > Why in the mean time? Snape is not at the Hogshead to overhear the > prophecy. No one knows it is going to be made. He's there to apply > for a job at Hogwarts. Of course Snape was not there to overhear the prophecy, as who would have known one would be made -- but is it clear that he was there to apply for a job? I thought that Dumbledore met Trelawney there to accomodate her needs, but was he also openly accepting applications at the Hog's Head, or did Snape just hope to catch a word with him about a job at Hogwarts? Or, was he listening at the door for some other reason.? Trelawney seems to think he was there to get some pointers on job interviews with Dumbledore:), but did he actually plan to apply for a job that night? Cheryl From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 17 20:19:37 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:19:37 -0000 Subject: Would DD try to make Harry capable of Unforgivables? (was: Portrait!DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137911 SSSusan: >> No, if Harry's going to figure out Snape's still "okay," (as okay as a major prick can be, that is), then I think it's going to have to come from a talk w/ portrait!DD.<< Hagridsdad: > Do you think it possible that DD was trying to give Harry the emotion > needed to perform the unforgiveable curses. Remember what happened > when Harry tried to use one on Bellatrix in MOM during OOTP. How else > would he develop that kind of hatred needed in order to use the Avada > Cadavra curse on Voldemort. Just a thought. SSSusan: Actually, I *don't* think this is something DD would go for, as I reflect on it.... I meant pretty much just a straightforward explanation from portrait!DD as to what Snape did on the Tower and WHY (because DD wanted him to), because I can't really imagine any other way in which Harry might come to an acceptance that Snape is still on DD's side (assuming that's true, of course ;-)). One thing DD talks to Harry about a lot is that it *is* about love -- just love -- and that Harry has a pure heart. I don't think DD would want to *corrupt* that by "upping" the hatred of Snape in Harry to such a degree that he'd be able to cast an Unforgivable. That just doesn't strike me as very Dumbledorian. Not that I don't think it's *possible* that in the end it will come down to Harry AK'ing Voldy (it would be an act of war, after all)... but I think it's likelier that JKR is going to build upon the concepts of Love & Sacrifice in having Harry manage to vanquish Voldy by means somehow coming out of *that* rather than out of hatred. Heh heh. And, to those of you who know me well -- no, the irony isn't lost on me that I'm writing this as a person who *does* also think DD instructed Snape to finish him off. :-) I know that's potentially problematic, but I hold to the notion that the killing of DD was: 1) a mercy killing; 2) a strategic move in time of war; and 3) a means of saving Draco & Snape and possibly others. Thus, Snape's AK was *different* than what hagridsdad would be suggesting for Harry -- that is, a building up of hatred in order for him to be able to off Voldy via an Unforgivable. I know an AK is an AK to many of you. To me, Snape's was seen as *necessary* by the person upon whom it would be utilized, and that makes it somehow "different." As for DD actually asking Snape to do something which might tear a bit of Snape's soul, I'm banking on this "different" kind of AK not doing that. Or elsewise, that it was a price Snape had to pay for the good of the Order. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 20:42:14 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:42:14 -0000 Subject: Would DD try to make Harry capable of Unforgivables? (was: Portrait!DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137912 > SSSusan: > I know an AK is an AK to many of you. To me, Snape's was seen as > *necessary* by the person upon whom it would be utilized, and that > makes it somehow "different." As for DD actually asking Snape to do > something which might tear a bit of Snape's soul, I'm banking on > this "different" kind of AK not doing that. Or elsewise, that it was a > price Snape had to pay for the good of the Order. > Alla: I think there is very good reason why JKR called those three curses " Unforgivables" So far she did not give ( IMO only of course) any indication in the books that under some circumstances " Unforgivables" could be forgiven. Even when aurors were given permission to perform them, remember how unsympathetic the narrator's voice is to the person who gave such authorization. At the same time, we learn that real Moody always always tried to bring bad guys to captive alive. I doubt that JKR would portray DD to be the person similar to Barty. Sure, soldier under order can be excused, sort of, but what does it say about the general giving such an order? I don't want to think of Dumbledore that way. I would rather think of him as one who trusted unconditionally and was betrayed in that. :-) I don't think we have any other example in the books, where use of Unforgivables was somehow justified, do we? As someone pointed out even card on Dumbledore does not say "killed Grindelwald", it says defeated him. Well, of course just my opinion. Alla, who usually agrees with SSSusan, but on this matter quite strongly disagrees with her. From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Aug 17 20:43:55 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:43:55 -0000 Subject: "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137913 Has anyone noticed how ONLY Death Eaters or dark wizards/witches refer to Lord Voldemort as "The Dark Lord"? I was rereading OotP and that happens a lot, particularly with Snape. For example, during the Occlumency lessons he barks at Harry a few times when Harry says Voldemort's name, and tells him not to. Yes, Snape was a DE, but he's had over a decade to lose that habit if he had really crossed to the side of good. I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already. It's been bugging me and felt I had to post it, not much time to check all the "Snape is/isn't evil" posts. :) Rizza From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 17 20:57:42 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:57:42 -0000 Subject: "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > Has anyone noticed how ONLY Death Eaters or dark wizards/witches refer > to Lord Voldemort as "The Dark Lord"? I was rereading OotP and that > happens a lot, particularly with Snape. For example, during the > Occlumency lessons he barks at Harry a few times when Harry says > Voldemort's name, and tells him not to. Yes, Snape was a DE, but he's > had over a decade to lose that habit if he had really crossed to the > side of good. > Rizza I also was interested when Harry asked Snape that question "Why do you call Voldemort the Dark Lord, I've only heard Death Eaters call him that ---" in OotP, p 593 Am Ed Hardcover They were rudely interrupted and we never did find out. I can only guess that Snape continues to call Voldy the Dark Lord, as his character doesn't strike me as a person who would be calling him "the one who must not be named" and that calling him Voldemort is perhaps dangerous for him - perhaps there is a connection or something with the DE's & LV when they utter his name. Or that that this is for Snape to *stay* in his role as a Death Eater. To start calling him Voldemort would be an *insult* to Voldy if he found out that his DE was on such familar terms with him and the other DE's would wonder why Snape is now referring to him by his name, when only DD & Harry do that. I think it is the last one - Snape has to stay in his *role* as a Death Eater - otherwise, he might slip & reveal his true loyalities - which I still believe is with DD and the Order. colebiancardi From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 17 21:00:58 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:00:58 -0000 Subject: Would DD try to make Harry capable of Unforgivables? (was: Portrait!DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137915 SSSusan: > Actually, I *don't* think this is something DD would go > for, as I reflect on it.... I meant pretty much just a > straightforward explanation from portrait!DD as to what > Snape did on the Tower and WHY (because DD wanted him to), > because I > can't really imagine any other way in which > Harry might come to an >acceptance that Snape is still on DD's side > (assuming that's true, of >course ;-)). houyhnhnm: We have seen Harry slowly grow in insight into other people (his pity for Draco at the end of HBP, empathy for Luna at the end of OotP). Love power, in other words. I have a feeling that Harry's acceptance of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore (if such is the case and I firmly believe it to be) will turn on that rather than some magical deus ex machina. Harry will recognize the similarities between Snape's experience on the tower and his own in the cave. I mean there's going to have to be some other evidence as well, but I think it will be his own growth in wisdom that will ultimately sway Harry. SSSusan: > is, a building up of hatred in order for him to be able to off Voldy > via an Unforgivable. houyhnhnm: I'd like to see the dementors come into Voldemort's destruction in some way. They like to suck out people's souls after all. SSSusan: > I know an AK is an AK to many of you. To me, Snape's was seen as > *necessary* by the person upon whom it would be utilized, and that > makes it somehow "different." As for DD actually asking Snape to do > something which might tear a bit of Snape's soul, I'm banking on > this "different" kind of AK not doing that. houyhnhnm: I agree and I don't see any support in the book for the kind of legalistic morality exemplified by those who think an AK tears your soul but blasting an old man off a tower with a stunning spell so that he falls to his death is okay. This is the way hardliners at the Ministry of Magic think, but neither Harry nor Dumbledore exhibits this type of legalistic thinking. Both are willing to break any number of rules and even laws in the interest of a higher good. From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 17 21:03:29 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:03:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do the math In-Reply-To: <43035B3E.5000005@chalmers.se> References: <005a01c5a30b$b1687d70$16c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> <43035655.9090702@telus.net> <43035B3E.5000005@chalmers.se> Message-ID: <4303A621.7020300@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137916 Fabian Peng Krrholm wrote: > Didn't he go to Voldemort first though and tell him about the prophecy? > What I don't get it is why he did this, if he's supposed to be on the > 'good side'. I mean that would mean: > 1. Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy > 2. Snape tries to figure out who the child is > 3. Once he has found this out, he tells Dumbledore > 4. Dumbledore asks why on earth Snape told Voldemort in the first place! > > Or no? > > Fabian Kathy writes: According to canon, Snape was working for Voldemort, at that time, perhaps already wearing the Dark Mark. He applied for a teaching position at Voldemort's request. Presumably, that is what he was doing when he happened to over-hear part of the prophesy, which he took back to Voldemort, like a good little Death Eater. This was approximately a year before Harry's birth. In the meantime, according to the prophesy, both Neville's parents and Harry's parents "defied" Voldemort three times. Which information presumably would have been known by Dumbledore. We are told that as soon as Snape knew it was the Potters, he turned spy for Dumbledore. We are told that 1. Snape spied for Dumbledore prior to the attack on Godric's Hollow but we don't know for how long before.PoA 2. We are told that when Snape heard that it was the Potters who were actually targeted by Voldemort, he then went to Dumbledore to confess, change sides and warn them.HBP 3. According to the fourteen year teaching timeline, Snape had been hired as a teacher for up to 2 months prior to the attack on Godric's Hollow, as he would have been hired sometime in August for a September 1'st start. We don't know how long he was working for the Order(if he was) before Dumbledore hired him.OotP What I don't understand is 1. If Dumbledore knew that one of these two boys would be important to the downfall of Voldemort, would he not have warned both families shortly after their births? 2. Did Voldemort only make up his mind which boy was the most likely to be a danger to him a week before the attack? 3. Did Snape only find out which was the targeted child a week before the attack, or was there a delay while he worked out what to do about it? 4. Was Dumbledore not aware that Snape was a Death Eater before he hired him as a teacher? Was Dumbledore not aware until Snape confessed that Voldemort also knew part of the prophesy? 5. Was it only after it was definitely confirmed that a time was estimated for an attack that the Fidelius was put in place? I just think that since only two boys in the whole WW were born at the end of July, and that only two families fit the qualification of "defying" Voldemort three times, it would not be too much to expect Dumbledore to warn them well in advance. There only remained the choosing which child it would be, which Voldemort settled in his own mind well before the attack, and which Snape knew about, in sufficient time to confess to Dumbledore. In POA(152), it said that Dumbledore warned them immediately. If Dumbledore warned them immediately, it means that he hired Snape 7 weeks or so before he had a change of heart and confessed. If Snape found out about the Potters prior to being hired, it means that Dumbledore failed to warn the Potters until the week prior to the attack. Which would be the most OC choice for Dumbledore?? KJ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 21:10:05 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:10:05 -0000 Subject: Would DD try to make Harry capable of Unforgivables? (was: Portrait!DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137917 > > houyhnhnm: > > I agree and I don't see any support in the book for the kind of > legalistic morality exemplified by those who think an AK tears your > soul but blasting an old man off a tower with a stunning spell so that > he falls to his death is okay. This is the way hardliners at the > Ministry of Magic think, but neither Harry nor Dumbledore exhibits > this type of legalistic thinking. Both are willing to break any > number of rules and even laws in the interest of a higher good. Alla: Could you please show me some canon support for idea that Ministry called " Unforgivables" as such. The way I see it it is some kind of common tradition, which existed in WW from who knows how long time ago (just speculating of course, but not remembering anything definite in the books to the contrary) I see not performing " Unforgivables" as supporting some kind of moral law, spiritual law. As to not supporting the idea that AK tears your soul, I see all HBP as supporting it, because I see horcruxes story as metaphor for " murder is bad for your soul". And NO, blasting DD of the tower with ANY kind of spell is definitely NOT OK in my book, so not OK. JMO, Alla. From sionwitch at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 18:36:16 2005 From: sionwitch at yahoo.com (Virginia Villamediana) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape detractors unsophisticated? Message-ID: <20050817183616.92791.qmail@web33812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137918 Sherry wrote: As for canon on the detractor side, several of us have said that from all we know of Dumbledore, over six books, we believe it is absolutely out of character for Dumbledore to ask anyone to commit murder. Now especially since HBP, because we have learned about horcruxes and been told that murder splits the soul. Virginia now: It is really hard for me to express my thoughts in english bacause I'm still learning it, but I will do my best :-p I just want to add to this excellent post made by Sherry, that I was a Snape defender before HBP. I saw him like a really interesting character with many layers, even after spinner's end, I thought it would have to be a good reason for Snape's behavior, but after he murdered my most beloved character, I became a Snape detractor. I have been reading all the posts I can serching for the thing that would make me change my opinion about Snape, but I agree with Sherry that based in canon, there is no way Dumbledore would ask anyone to kill him. I also agree that in WW as well in RW there is no justification to murder someone not even if the person ask for it, and if Snape was using another non verbal spell or if the AK was not what killed Dumbledore it is still a murder attempt, in the RW if someone shoot with a gun someone else and it does not kill the person, it is still punished with jail. IMO whatever the reason Snape did what he did and even if Dumbledore is not death (I wish but dont think so), Snape did a horrible thing and has to be punished for that. In the MuggleNet interview JKR said: MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil? JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think? ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically. MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim - JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] - So, she said it is a DESPERATE HOPE...! I also believe that It will be some kind of redemption for Snape, but that wont make him GOOD, he, as the rest of the HP characters, is not all black or white. IMHO. Virginia. From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 17 21:19:44 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:19:44 -0000 Subject: "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137919 colebiancardi: > I also was interested when Harry asked Snape that > question "Why do you call Voldemort the Dark Lord, > I've only heard Death Eaters call > him that ---" in OotP, p 593 Am Ed Hardcover [...] > calling him Voldemort is perhaps > dangerous for him - perhaps there is a connection or > something with the DE's & LV when they utter his name. > Or that that this is for Snape to *stay* in his role > as a Death Eater. To start calling him Voldemort would > be an *insult* to Voldy if he found out that his DE > was on such familar terms with him and the other DE's > would wonder why Snape is now referring to him by his name, > when only DD & Harry do that. I think it is the last one - > Snape has to stay in his *role* as a Death Eater - otherwise, > he might slip & reveal his true loyalities -which I still believe is > with DD and the Order. houyhnhnm: Snape success as an occlumens seems to be based in large part on not allowing memories or feelings that would contradict the lie to be created in the first place. He doesn't stay to eat with other members of the order. He addresses Dumbledore as "headmaster", and so forth. Calling LV "Voldemort" would create a memory of doing so and also a memory of the feeling that would accompany saying it--defiance. Only those who are not afraid of Voldmort and ready to defy him call him "Voldemort". From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Aug 17 21:26:31 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:26:31 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Secondly, I don't think that canon specifies which hand. > > 'Harry raised the sharp, black quill, then realised what was missing. > "You haven't given me any ink," he said. > "Oh, you won't need ink," said Professor Umbridge with the merest > suggestion of a laugh in her voice. > Harry placed the point of the quill on the paper and wrote: I must > not tell lies. > He let out a gasp of pain. The words had appeared on the parchment in > what appeared to be shining red ink. At the same time, the words had > appeared on the back of Harry's right hand cut into his skin as > though traced there by a scalpel - yet even as he stared at the > shining cut, the skin healed over again, leaving the palce where it > had been slightly redder than before but quite smooth.' > > (OOTP "Detention with Dolores" p.240 UK edition) > > There does not seem to be any specific reference as to which hand > Harry is using to write. In addition to what you wrote, there is more cannon to prove it is his right hand. OotP US Edition top of page 272 Chapter 13 Detention with Delores In a converstion with Ron- " 'Yeah, so do - Harry what's that on the back of your hand?' Harry, who had just scratched his nose with his free RIGHT hand, tried to hide it, but had as much success as Ron with his Cleansweep. 'It's just a cut - it's nothing - it's' " Then again on page 274 "I must not tell lies, Harry wrote. The cut in the back of his RIGHT hand opened and began to bleed afresh." Rizza From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Wed Aug 17 21:27:21 2005 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:27:21 +0100 Subject: The Importance of the Houses (was:Re: Slughorn a In-Reply-To: <1124298911.2498.94632.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137921 Prep0strus wrote: > I certainly agree that the main characters could > easily represent the different houses. Neville usually comes to mind > before Ron as a Hufflepuff, but Ron certainly makes sense, especially > as a member of the trio. It's Harry I find as representing Slytherin > to be the most difficult - sure, the hat said he would do well there - > if he was ambitious. But Harry isn't that ambitious. He has > developed more of a desire to be an auror, because of his past, but I > would still consider Hermione more ambitious than he is. Also, Harry > doesn't often fall into the 'cunning' category. But, as I said > before, neither do many members of Slytherin - Crabbe & Goyle at the > forefront. > > Interesting....actually I see the four relating to the houses as: Hermione - Ravenclaw Neville - Hufflepuff Harry - Gryffindor Ron - Slytherin. I think Hermione's house needs no explanation, and Neville, bless him, seems perfect for Hufflepuff. As for Harry and Ron... Well, I really do think that Harry's distinguishing feature is his courage. Tine and time again he throws himself into situations where he knows he will be in mortal danger. At the very end of HBP, in the confrontation with Snape, he says "kill me then" and feels no fear (sorry. Can't remember exact quote). As for Ron - remember what he saw in the Mirror of Erised. Himself as Head Boy, covered in glory, outshining his brothers. Ron is ambitious and desires greatness - VERY Slytherin-esque qualities. Beth (who wishes to state on the record that she does NOT think for one moment that Ron is ESE!) From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 17 21:30:28 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:30:28 -0000 Subject: Would DD try to make Harry capable of Unforgivables? (was: Portrait!DD) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137922 Alla said: "Could you please show me some canon support for idea that Ministry called " Unforgivables" as such. The way I see it it is some kind of common tradition, which existed in WW from who knows how long time ago (just speculating of course, but not remembering anything definite in the books to the contrary) I see not performing " Unforgivables" as supporting some kind of moral law, spiritual law." I always thought they were called 'unforgivable' curses not only because of their effect on one's soul, but because they earn the caster a lifetime sentence in Azkaban, which is a law enforcd by the Ministry. A wizard/witch is never forgiven (by the Ministry) for choosing to use one, in other words? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 21:44:56 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:44:56 -0000 Subject: Origins of unforgivables Was: Would DD try to mal Harry capable of UK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137923 Strawberryshaunie wrote: > I always thought they were called 'unforgivable' curses not only > because of their effect on one's soul, but because they earn the > caster > a lifetime sentence in Azkaban, which is a law enforcd by the > Ministry. > A wizard/witch is never forgiven (by the Ministry) for choosing to > use > one, in other words? Alla: Ooooo, great point, thank you. I have to reread this lesson in GoF. I don't have GoF near by. It does not say though that Ministry named them "Unforgivables" , right? Besides the person who performs this lesson is not real Moody, and he as we know has no problem performing Unforgivables, so it makes semse to me that he would try to move the prohibition into the legal realm from the spiritual one. Moreover, we know that Barty Sr. had no problem allowing unforgivables when he saw fit, so I think they are feeling pretty much OK to fit the law to their needs. I see Dumbledore as being very different from Ministry authorities. Thank you again, I forgot about that quote. JMO, Alla, who realises that this is her fourth post, so she shuts up for today. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 21:58:31 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:58:31 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses (was:Re: Slughorn a dead end topic?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137924 > >>Prep0strus: > Ok, I don't know how to use 'snips', and don't often respond in > pieces to posts, because I find it more confusing, but I thought > I'd try this time. Betsy Hp: I love snipping and rearranging and answering to bits and pieces of posts, and you did a great job, IMO. :) > >>Prep0strus: > I certainly agree that the main characters could easily represent > the different houses. Neville usually comes to mind before Ron as > a Hufflepuff, but Ron certainly makes sense, especially as a > member of the trio. Betsy Hp: Hmmm. I think Neville is the most Gryffindorish Gryffindor who ever Gryffindored. The boy is a walking advertisement for bravery, IMO. He took on Crabbe and Goyle in PS/SS for goodness sake! Plus, he's quite the loner, our Neville, and certainly not afraid to go against the crowd (as seen in PS/SS also). So he doesn't strike me as very Hufflepuffish at all. Of course, YMMV. > >>Prep0strus: > It's Harry I find as representing Slytherin to be the most > difficult - sure, the hat said he would do well there - if he was > ambitious. But Harry isn't that ambitious. > Betsy Hp: Atually, the Hat never mentions ambition with regards to Harry. Though it does tell Harry that he could be great and that Slytherin could help him achieve that greatness, so maybe I'm picking nits. I would point out, however, that Harry is incredibly competitive when he wants to be and was none too pleased when he didn't make Prefect. Harry certainly isn't academically ambitious (that's more Hermione, as you rightly point out), but he's athletically ambitious (which Hermione is not), and he doesn't shirk away from taking a lead. He's not eaten up by ambition, which is a good thing, but he's not a withdrawn little wall-flower either. As the Hat points out, Harry does have a thirst to prove himself. Also, Dumbledore tells Harry (in CoS) that he does have qualities admired by Slytherin (resourcefulness, determination and a certain disregard for rules). And in HBP Dumbledore specifically tells Harry to use those talents to get the horcrux memory out of Slughorn. "And you feel that you have exerted your very best efforts in this matter, do you? That you have exercised all of your considerable ingenuity? That you have left no depth of cunning unplumbed in your quest to retrieve the memory?" (HBP scholastic p.428) Basically, Dumbledore wanted Harry to unleash his inner-Slytherin on Slughorn. And when Harry finally did, he got the memory he was after. (IMO, of course) > >>Prep0strus: > It's more that I don't understand the purpose of the houses if > they're not going to represent what they're supposed to, or what > the hat has led us to believe they're supposed to. > Betsy Hp: But the Hat only gives very general attributes to each House. And JKR, IMO, has done a bang up job of breaking out of the House stereotypes with her characters while still maintaining those attributes. For Hufflepuff we get Cedric. Yes, he's brave and intelligent. But he's also got an incredibly strong sense of fair-play. He's doesn't like that he beat Harry at Quidditch because of a technicality. He's the only Champion *not* cheating in the Tri-Wizard tournament. (It's interesting that in return for Harry telling him that the first challenge is dragons, he only gives Harry *hints* about what to do with his egg. I think he'd have felt out and out telling Harry about the mermaid song would be cheating.) We also get Zach Smith, who is snarky and cynical, but is also leery of someone setting themselves outside or above the group. Which is true to the Hufflepuff way, IMO. For Ravenclaw, yes there's Luna. She's got a very different way of looking at things, but the girl is all about research. She and her father don't just dream about their fantastic beasts, they go looking for them. And she spoke of Hagrids poor teaching skills as not looked on well by Ravenclaw and herself. Gryffindor has Neville, who is so timid and unsure of himself people immediately question whether he should be in Gryffindor in the first place. Then he takes on Crabbe and Goyle singlehandedly, stands up to Ron, Hermione, and Harry, faces down Bellatrix while undergoing the very same torture his parents went insane under, and it becomes quite clear that Neville is a Gryffindor through and through. > >>Prep0strus: > With a cursory glance, the 4 houses could be described as thus: > The Good, The Bad, The Smart, and The Useless. Betsy Hp: Well yes, exactly. And that's how Harry seems to see them in the beginning. Gryffindor was good, Slytherin was bad, and Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw were... not on his radar really. But as the years have gone by and Harry has started to grow up his stereotypes about the Houses and the people in them have begun breaking down. Because it's incredibly hard to judge people with a cursory glance. Or at least, to judge them accurately. Slytherin is the last House to break out of it's stereotype because it's the house Harry had the biggest grudge against. He went into Hogwarts quite sure it was the realm of all evil. He's starting to realize, I think (and hope) that this view is patently untrue. > >>Prep0strus: > And the 'bad', the Slytherin... that seems to be the only > qualifying factor. The main characteristics we've been given for > them are ambitious, self-serving, and 'teaching those whose blood > is purest'. Betsy Hp: And yet, as early as CoS Dumbledore was telling Harry there were positive attributes to Slytherin. Harry chose not to listen to him, then. But I think, with HBP, Harry has started to look at Slytherin in a whole new light. Yes, there is bad in Slytherin, just as there is bad in Gryffindor and Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. Any of those Houses' attributes could be described in a negative way. And Harry has met people from each of those houses he's liked, and people he's dis-liked. > >>Prep0strus: > But Crabbe & Goyle, I think I'd put in Hufflepuff if it wasn't for > them being 'the bad'. They're 'loyal', and the 'rest', if not > hardworking. Betsy Hp: I think Crabbe and Goyle are a bit too elitist to be in Hufflepuff. They didn't attach themselves to just any old Slytherin. They attached themselves to Draco, who is certainly one of the main movers and shakers of his house. And though they might not be academically hardworking, they certainly work hard for Draco (memorizing songs, sewing costumes, becoming little girls ). > >>Prep0strus: > But hardworking would leave out our Ronny as a metaphor for > Hufflepuff as well. Betsy Hp: Again, not academically, but Ron worked damn hard to get his place as Keeper on the Gryffindor team, and I think he's had to work damn hard to keep it. I'd also point out that Ron works quite hard for Harry when Harry needs him to. (He helped Harry practice in GoF once he came on board, and he's always done his bit with the research.) > >>Prep0strus: > Again, I've gotten myself in trouble with using the word 'good' in > that first post. I do believe Slughorn to be on the side of good, > and will not be surprised at all if Snape is as well, or if Draco > joins up. What I mean to say, I guess, is 'appealing', though > that's a bit subjective. I want a Slytherin I can LIKE. > Betsy Hp: Ahh, yes. That is a different sort of request. I think you'll meet a Slytherin you can like when Harry meets a Slytherin he can like. He's a lot more open to Slughorn, but Harry still holds him at arm's length, as you've pointed out. What will be interesting to see is if an appealing Slytherin *for Harry* ever appears. Personally, I've always liked Draco. I saw a lot of potential in the kid and I was thrilled to see JKR tease it to the surface in HBP. And, of course, I'm mad about Snape. So, as you say, it is quite subjective, but I have a feeling that if Harry ever gets around to full out *liking* a Slytherin (as he likes Luna, and Cedric) then I expect his view will put a lot of weight on the "appealing" side of the scale. > >>Prep0strus: > I actually really like your answer about 'Book 7', though I tend > to doubt I will find the kind've Slytherin I'm interested in, or > the explination that haunts me about the houses. I really love > the minor characters, exploring the kids who wound up in the other > houses (and even our other Gryffindors). After 5, and the DA, I > really thought we seem some serious exploring of them in HBP, and > was a little disappointed. Betsy Hp: I think that HBP was possibly the set up for an appealing Slytherin to emerge. Part of the reason I loved this latest book is the insight we *finally* got into Slytherin. It was the merest of peeks (and Crabbe and Goyle *still* didn't get any lines) but it was a start. And I'm hopeful JKR will continue it through. I think she had to let the other minor characters drop for a bit so she could give the Slytherin characters (read Draco) more air time. > >>Prep0strus: > I tend to doubt, with everything else that needs to happen, that > we'll see too much of it in 7 either. > Betsy Hp: Oh, I don't know about that. Four horcuxes, four houses.... I imagine some of the minor characters will have a few moments to shine (and in JKR's hands it really only takes a scene or two). There's already a hint of a connection between Zach Smith and the Hufflepuff cup, so there's one minor character that could very well have a part to play. I tend to think JKR planned the houses out very carefully, attributes, characters, and all. So I think they will all come into play in book 7. And I think the importance of the houses and what they represent will make a great deal of sense (or at least show some sort of meaningful symbolism) by series end. Or at least, that's my hope! :) Betsy Hp From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Aug 17 22:01:00 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:01:00 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > At the same time, the words > had > > appeared on the back of Harry's right hand cut into his skin as > > though traced there by a scalpel - yet even as he stared at the > > shining cut, the skin healed over again, leaving the palce where > it > > had been slightly redder than before but quite smooth.' > > > > (OOTP "Detention with Dolores" p.240 UK edition) > > > > There does not seem to be any specific reference as to which hand > > Harry is using to write. Rizza: > In addition to what you wrote, there is more cannon to prove it is > his right hand. > > Geoff: I think you may have misunderstood what I was driving at. The quotes you give are to show that it is the right hand which is bleeding - my point being that there is no mention **in this piece of canon** to indicate which hand Harry is **writing with**. However, I think you missed my message 137878 in which I then quoted canon I had found in Philosopher's Stone to prove that Harry is right- handed. From merpsiren at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 21:41:54 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (merpsiren) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:41:54 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137926 I have really spent some time with the following theory and am ready to see what everyone else thinks... I have been thinking about motives for Snape to defy Voldemort and truly join up with Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix. I believe the key to this is mentioned on pg 549 of HBP. "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --" Now, if you read this quote from Dumbledore with Harry's POV it suggests that Snape regrets how the info of the prophecy affected the Potters. However, I believe that Dumbledore really is speaking the truth of how the intrepretation of the prophecy affected Snape. We know that Snape overheard the prophecy and eventually passed the information on to Voldemort. However, there is a gap in time of 1.5 to 2 years between when the prophecy was made, and when the Potters were murdered. Why motive would Snape have to hold back on this information? I believe that Snape defied Voldemort and did not immediatly tell him the information he had overheard because Snape had a family of his own to protect. ("Broaden your mind...") My grand theory is that Snape was married and also had a son (or his wife was expecting which coincided with the birth of Harry and Neville) and that Snape saved the information from the prophecy in an attempt to protect his own family from death. Voldemort later finds this information out from using legilimency against Snape and is furious with Snape that he withheld it. Voldemort then interprets the prophecy to mean Snape's child will potentially be the one with the power to destroy the Dark Lord. The punishment for this betrayal was death for Snape's wife and child. Now, if you buy into my theory, and then read HBP pg. 571-572. The basin in the cave is filled with the green poison and is described as looking like a pensieve. I believe that the liquid that Dumbledore drinks is very much like a pensieve memory, it is Snape's worst memory. The agonizing utterances from Dumbledore as he consumes this horrible poison I believe to be the actual memory of Snape at the time of his own family's murder. Read the passages with Snape as the speaker pleading with Voldemort to spare "them" for a horrible mistake that he (Snape) has made (not sharing the prophecy with Voldemort). I read the beginning (the first things Dumbledore utters after drinking the poison) as Snape fighting off the legilimency from Voldemort as he enters Snapes mind and retrieves the info afout the prophecy , "don't like... want to stop... I don't want to... Let me go... make it stop, make it stop." Followed by Snape pleading that his family be spared, "It's all my fault, all my fault... I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again... Don't hurt them... it's my fault, hurt me instead... Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!" Snape has lost everything. I believe this is the reason Dumbledore implicitly believes and trusts Snape. Snape wants vengence as much as Harry does. I have probably left out half of what is swirling around in my mind, but I really wanted to get this theory out there and see what others think... so let me know! Merprisen From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 17 22:38:25 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:38:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4303BC61.203@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137927 merpsiren wrote: > I have really spent some time with the following theory and am ready > to see what everyone else thinks... > > I have been thinking about motives for Snape to defy Voldemort and > truly join up with Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix. I believe > the key to this is mentioned on pg 549 of HBP. > > "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized > how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it > to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned > --" > > Now, if you read this quote from Dumbledore with Harry's POV it > suggests that Snape regrets how the info of the prophecy affected the > Potters. However, I believe that Dumbledore really is speaking the > truth of how the intrepretation of the prophecy affected Snape. We > know that Snape overheard the prophecy and eventually passed the > information on to Voldemort. However, there is a gap in time of 1.5 > to 2 years between when the prophecy was made, and when the Potters > were murdered. Why motive would Snape have to hold back on this > information? I believe that Snape defied Voldemort > and did not immediatly tell him the information he had overheard > because Snape had a family of his own to protect. ("Broaden your > mind...") My grand theory is that Snape was married and also had a son > (or his wife was expecting which coincided with the birth of Harry and > Neville) and that Snape saved the information from the prophecy in an > attempt to protect his own family from death. Voldemort later finds > this information out from using legilimency against Snape and is > furious with Snape that he withheld it. Voldemort then interprets the > prophecy to mean Snape's child will potentially be the one with the > power to destroy the Dark Lord. The punishment for this betrayal was > death for Snape's wife and child. > > Now, if you buy into my theory, and then read HBP pg. 571-572. The > basin in the cave is filled with the green poison and is described as > looking like a pensieve. I believe that the liquid that Dumbledore > drinks is very much like a pensieve memory, it is Snape's worst > memory. The agonizing utterances from Dumbledore as he consumes this > horrible poison I believe to be the actual memory of Snape at the time > of his own family's murder. Read the passages with Snape as the > speaker pleading with Voldemort to spare "them" for a horrible mistake > that he (Snape) has made (not sharing the prophecy with Voldemort). I > read the beginning (the first things Dumbledore utters after drinking > the poison) as Snape fighting off the legilimency from Voldemort as he > enters Snapes mind and retrieves the info afout the prophecy , "don't > like... want to stop... I don't want to... Let me go... make it stop, > make it stop." Followed by Snape pleading that his family be spared, > "It's all my fault, all my fault... I know I did wrong, oh please make > it stop and I'll never, never again... Don't hurt them... it's my > fault, hurt me instead... Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!" > > Snape has lost everything. I believe this is the reason Dumbledore > implicitly believes and trusts Snape. Snape wants vengence as much as > Harry does. > > I have probably left out half of what is swirling around in my mind, > but I really wanted to get this theory out there and see what others > think... so let me know! > > Merprisen Kathy writes: I like it! It has the aditional use of tying up the married professors loose end that I could not see having any effect on anything. If Snape had been loved, that could explain who else other than his mother, it could also explain why he hates Harry, because his son is dead and Harry is alive. I too think that what we hear Dumbledore say in the cave is Snape, not Dumbly. Counting to four and hoping nothing else interesting happens today. KJ From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 23:23:47 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:23:47 -0000 Subject: "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137928 Rizza wrote: Has anyone noticed how ONLY Death Eaters or dark wizards/witches refer to Lord Voldemort as "The Dark Lord"? I was rereading OotP and that happens a lot, particularly with Snape. For example, during the Occlumency lessons he barks at Harry a few times when Harry says Voldemort's name, and tells him not to. Yes, Snape was a DE, but he's had over a decade to lose that habit if he had really crossed to the side of good. I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already. It's been bugging me and felt I had to post it, not much time to check all the "Snape is/isn't evil" posts. :) vmonte: The prophecy also calls Voldemort "The Dark Lord." Vivian From mariabronte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 23:32:20 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:32:20 -0000 Subject: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137929 I've been thinking about what we know of Dumbledore's plans as a whole over GoF, OotP and HBP. 1) At the end of GoF, Dumbledore *already* has a plan in place, which he very quickly puts into action. It seems he has been contemplating and planning for the possibility of Voldemort's rebirth for quite some time. 2) We realise in OotP that this plan *does not* involve directly attacking Voldemort at this stage. Furthermore, Harry is incredibly frustrated because it seems on the surface that any plans Dumbledore and the Order may have had cannot be put into action or have failed, quite spectacularly in some cases: (a) The Ministry of Magic has successfully discredited both Harry and Dumbledore; Harry and Dumbledore cannot convince the majority of the population of the need to prepare for battle. (b) Dolores Umbridge, also under the auspices of the MoM, is doing all she can to prevent the students of Hogwarts from preparing for any such battle. (c) Dumbledore is demoted, and Umbridge is put into his place. (d) Harry does not learn occlumency, and as a result is lured to the Department of Mysteries, just as Voldemort wants. (e) Sirius dies. Look like failure? Look again. Think about what has been achieved by the end of OotP: 1) The DA is formed; the students mobilise independently to defend themselves (would they have done so if Umbridge wasn't there? I doubt it). 2) Umbridge is removed from the school. 3) Dumbledore and Harry are back in favour. 4) Voldemort does *not* get the prophecy. 5) We find out at the beginning of HBP that Cornelius Fudge is no longer Minister for Magic, *exactly* as Dumbledore wanted. Now, onto HBP; again, on the surface, failure: 1) The Order doesn't seem to be doing anything much at all. 2) The Horcruxes are not found and destroyed 3) Voldemort succeeds in his plan to kill Dumbledore and Hogwarts is going to be closed. 4) Harry is left alone, and we don't know if he can destroy the rest of the Horcruxes himself. 5) Malfoy is involved with death eaters. BUT, when we look again: 1) Dumbledore has succeeded in passing onto Harry the needed information about how to destroy Voldemort for good, i.e the secret of the Horcruxes. 2) Voldemort does *not* know that Harry is aware of his secret. This is crucial if Harry is to have the chance to destroy him. 3) Malfoy has *not* committed a murder, which I think is the final step to becoming a fully fledged death eater; this is probably why Voldemort wanted Malfoy to do the deed. Maybe I'm stretching things here, but I keep having the niggling feeling, when I put all this together, that an appearance of failure is a part of Dumbledore's plans. There is a parallel theme to the Christian story here too; after all, in worldly terms, Jesus was a spectacular failure as well. I'm not suggesting that Dumbledore or Harry are meant to be Christ figures, just that the resonances are rather suggestive. Could JKR be leading us towards a similar conclusion, that what looks like failure may well be the very opposite when we have all the information? This ties in rather well to the idea of last judgement love, and the theme which is evident throughout the series that the truth is not always what appears on the surface. Well, enough babbling from me for now ;-) Mari. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Wed Aug 17 23:44:07 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:44:07 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Importance of the Houses (was:Re: Slughorn a dead end topic?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137930 >Betsy Hp: > >For Hufflepuff we get Cedric. Yes, he's brave and intelligent. But >he's also got an incredibly strong sense of fair-play. He's doesn't >like that he beat Harry at Quidditch because of a technicality. >He's the only Champion *not* cheating in the Tri-Wizard tournament. >(It's interesting that in return for Harry telling him that the >first challenge is dragons, he only gives Harry *hints* about what >to do with his egg. I think he'd have felt out and out telling >Harry about the mermaid song would be cheating.) Actually, I believe Cedric cheated as well, though, perhaps he could not have avoided it. p. 281 GOF (American version): "The champions are not permitted to ask for or accept help of any kind from their teachers to complete the tasks in the tournament." p. 635 GOF (American version): [Harry]:"You helped me with the egg - we're square." "I had help on the egg in the first place," said Cedric. p. 676 GOF (American version): [Fake!Moody]: I knew you hadn't worked out the egg's clue, so I had to give you another hint -" "You didn't," Harry said hoarsely. "Cedric gave me the clue -" "Who told Cedric to open it underwater? I did." Cedric received the information and acted upon it. And he passed it on to Harry. But one of the things that Hermione or Harry says about receiving help, I believe to be in error. I can't find the quote right now, but they seem to believe that it was against the rules for the champions to get help from friends and classmates. But, unless there are rules that we weren't made known of, it doesn't say that they can't get help from friends or even house elves - just teachers. That doesn't mean I think Harry didn't cheat - the dragon task was an obvious cheat. Hagrid showed it to him; Hagrid is his teacher. And Fake!Moody gave him so many hints about the broom that he might as well have told him outright. It just means I don't think Cedric was guiltless either. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Wed Aug 17 23:52:10 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:52:10 -0000 Subject: Protection from disarming (Expelliarmus) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137931 I might have to register this as a patent. Fred, George, here's my new product and I'm hoping that you might be prepared to sell it in Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. It's a really useful item that can be used to protect wizards and witches from disarmament charms. This may look like an ordinary muggle-household piece of string, but tie this end to your belt, button, wrist, neck, ankle, friend or whatever and this end to your wand, Voila! You never need fear being disarmed again! And here we have the professional version, made not out of String but what Muggles call 'Eclastic', this one returns straight to the hand after a disarming, useful for professionals such as Headmasters, teachers, escaped convicts... From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 23:52:20 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:52:20 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: <403e946f0508171213234bf244@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137932 > .... the logical next step for evil Snape is to > have a few words with LV, and book 7 open with LV squirreling all his > Horcruxes back, doing a 'head' count and plotting to recover what was > lost by making more. Not including the diary which he already knows > about. > > Tanya Valky: Yes you are right. If we are assuming that Evil!Snape additionally *knows* of the Horcruxes and that DD and Harry were destroying them. We don't know that this is true at all, so it leaves the ambiguity of Snape in tact, he could still be evil and yet have neutral enough effect on Harry's quest for Horcruxes. OTOH, what is very interesting to me about this all is that Snape does know something that other OOtP members may not know, and tht the DE's definitely do not. Snape has seen the connection between Voldemort and Harry first hand in the Occlumency lessons. If he's clever worth his salt (and evil enough) then he has information for LV that will change things in the dynamic of book seven. Knowing first hand what is going on inside Harry is very exclusive information. And it defintely pertains to the part of the prophecy that Voldemort *wanted* to hear. The part that was deemed dangerous enough to be protected, and considered a weapon that LV could use. The question is: was DD entirely mistaken in allowing Snape to be exposed to this secret? A wizard with the extraordinary mental capacity of Snape could understand what *we* do not, regarding the meaning of the second part of the prophecy. Just some thoughts for the mix.. Valky From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 00:28:46 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:28:46 -0000 Subject: Harry is Not a Horcrux or Maybe he is... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137934 Valky wrote: I really think you're on to something there Finwitch. I mean lets look at it, Tom Riddle, a name that was familiar to Harry, as though it was a childhood friend he'd forgotten, The Dursleys suppressing magical instinct out of Harry, Harry learning from the Dursleys to 'believe' that it wasn't real. That makes good sense... vmonte: Yes, I mentioned this deja vu that Harry has with Tom Riddle's name in the post before Finwitch. And I also think that Petunia would have reacted to anything strange in baby Harry's personality as being due to the fact that he was a wizard. Valky: Remember Tom's words about Ginny with the Diary. He said that she trusted in him, that he had been 'charming' while he listened to all her little secrets. Ginny said, and this is very interestingly like an anvil, that it was like having a secret friend in her pocket. So indeed if a piece of Toms soul had *tried* to take Harry over, and failed somewhere early in the game, then Harry *would* remember a 'Friend' named Tom Riddle, I think. vmonte: I keep thinking that Ginny has some important information regarding Tom Riddle that she doesn't yet realize is important. Tom was communicating with this kid for a whole year! He tells Harry that in the end he started telling her his secrets. I also wonder if he taught Ginny occlumeny? I mean he wouldn't want anyone to read her thoughts and realize what she had been doing all year would he? Valky: ...And Oh the possibilities. Is this what Petunia knows? Does she know that a piece of Voldemort is inside Harry, Does Remember My Last mean, remember I told you that Voldemort would possess the boy if he wasn't protected remember I told you that your sisters own son could become your worst nightmare just outside your door if you threw him out. Is this why her face turned pale when Harry told her that Voldemort was back, did she for one terrifying moment think that she was *looking right at him*! vmonte: I'm not sure about this Valky. Dumbledore doesn't give anyone specifics about anything, I doubt he would tell Petunia about Horcrux!Harry. The deal Dumbledore made with Petunia has to be something else that benefits her in some way. Vivian http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137676 From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 00:41:28 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:41:28 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137935 > >>Betsy Hp: > > > > If Dumbledore merely "trusted Snape to be Snape" (to paraphrase > > Samuel L. Jackson in "Jackie Brown") then he's not really > > trusting Snape at all. > >>Valky: > Yes Betsy, I agree with that. Which is why I am not actually saying > that Dumbledores trust *hinges* on Snape being unable to avoid > falling prey to his own evil, but rather just that DD *doesn't > exclude* it. Yes I see that limits how much trust DD would have in > Sevvie. To me, it limits DD to the point where he knows that > Snape will do as he feels is right, as anyone, and this will > include using Dark Magic or pecadillos to further himself towards > the perceived end, though DD would hope that he had managed to > advise and guide him sufficiently in the art of more selfless ways > to achieve ends. > Betsy Hp: Ahh. Okay, I think I see where you're going with this. And yes, Dumbledore would, I think, have a very clear understanding of Snape's character and so understand what Snape would be good at doing and bad at doing. For the most part. The Occlumency lessons in OotP is an example, I think, of Dumbledore expecting a bit too much out of Snape (and Harry as well). But generally, I think Dumbledore had a pretty clear idea of what he could ask of his fellow Order members. However, I do think Dumbledore had a pretty strong line drawn on what he would and would not find acceptable behaviour. Physical abuse of students, for example, seems to be a pretty strong no-no in Dumbledore's book. So if Snape started force feeding veritaserum to Harry I think Dumbledore would come down like a ton of bricks. Though I also suspect Dumbledore trusts Snape to *not* do such a thing. > >>Valky: > > So there we see that Snapes choices reveal something more than the > pattern of duping himself, carrying out nasty little > malefactions, and working for the bad guy if it suits his short > term purpose. Additionally it reveals, that he cannot contribute > to Evil in the end of the game. Betsy Hp: I think Snape's actions in the Shrieking Shack in PoA back that thought up, as well. If Snape was ever to use dark magic to overcome a foe Lupin and Sirius would have been a perfect opportunity. I'm quite sure the Ministry would have forgiven anything used to subdue (or even kill) an escaped Death Eater and the werewolf who assisted him. Especially when the two had student hostages, and especially since one of them was Harry Potter. Since Snape was going on pure instinct (or certainly appeared to be) I think it's telling that he didn't come out shooting, as it were. > >>Betsy Hp: > > And the evidence of the books points to Dumbledore trusting > > Snape possibly above all other Order members, IMO. It looks like > > Dumbledore shared the existence of the horcruxes with Snape. > > > >>Valky: > I believe that this is probably less so. I doubt that DD *shared* > with Snape these secrets as in giving them. The chance is rather > more high that clever little Sevvie worked out a lot of what was > going on for himself. > Betsy Hp: I agree that Snape would have (or may have already) figured out about the horcruxes. But the fact that Dumbledore not only decided Snape's knowing about them was a necessity, but that he limited that knowledge to *just* Snape suggests a large amount of trust to me. Because, yes, Snape is incredibly clever. (As per his childhood school notes, I think he might be seen as a bit of a genius.) But if Dumbledore didn't trust him completely, then I think he'd have kept Snape well out of everything, so that he'd have little knowledge to work with. You brought up Tom in the portion I snipped. I think he's a good example of Dumbledore keeping someone he distrusts *away* from things. It could be argued that hiring Tom might have been a clever thing to do (keeping your enemies closer). But Dumbledore, recognizing Tom's high intelligence obviously decided the risk to be too great. (Plus, there were the children to think about.) If Dumbledore didn't have a definite trust in Snape's overall goodness, I don't think he'd have brought him in on so many plans. And I *really* doubt he'd have allowed him to be a teacher. (Not all Order members are teachers after all.) > >>Valky: > As for your question about canon evidence to Snapes maladies. The > Dark Arts addiction thing was I think well covered in HBP. It' not > such an addiction per se, than it is, I think, an intense > admiration for the sheer power of the Dark Arts. I think that this > is covered also well by Hermiones inference to Harry that Snape > sounded like him. The similarity is that Harry has a healthy > respect for how incrediby powerful Dark Arts are, while Snape in > the same way has respect for the superiority of this power, but it > is not quite as healthy. Betsy Hp: Hmmm. I think I disagree here. I think Hermione was dead on. Both Harry and Snape recognize that to fight the dark arts you have to be flexible and innovative. I don't recall anything that suggested that Snape's respect was somehow *unhealthy*. I was more under the impression that Harry just hated the idea of being anything like Snape (bringing home the irony of how much he related to the half- blood Prince). And it's Harry who starts throwing around Unforgivables when he gets really upset. True, they tend to fail, but he won't always be protected by incompetence. Or at least, that's a dangerous protection to rely on, IMO. Snape, as I pointed out above, has not pulled out the Unforgivables even while under strong duress. (Which is why his Unforgivable on the Tower came as such a shock, I think. Especially since Snape appeared so completely in control both before and after the killing.) > >>Valky: > The canon for Snape behaving badly when left to his own devices, > are also written well into the series. Sevvie's behaviour towards > the Marauders it seems comes to a full head when the older DE > students, who are to some degree Sevvies companions while they are > there that much I am sure of, are no longer at Hogwarts. Betsy Hp: Are you suggesting that the Death Eaters in-training that Sirius listed off as Snape's companions *discouraged* Snape using or learning the dark arts? Snape didn't attack James and Sirius, he attempted to defend himself (in an uneven fight, no less). I don't think this was an example of Snape behaving badly at all. I *do* however see a Harry-like tendency to turn to the dark arts when in a desperate situation in young Severus. And perhaps that's why Snape counsels Harry against using dark magic in his final words in HBP. Perhaps he recognizes that they don't lead to a good place. > >>Valky: > When he rises through the Heirarchy of the DE and becomes a most > favoured servant of Voldemort, again he is at his own devices and > he gets himself in a stick there too. Betsy Hp: Are you talking the first time around, or the second? Because I'm not sure if young Snape *was* a most favored servant the first time around. I think he was seen as highly talented, but not necessarily most favored. And the second time around, well, Snape would have *wanted* to become the most favored. More privy to important secrets I would think. And I don't see that his status within the Death Eater ranks now has injured him or the Order in any way. > >>Valky: > Finally in HBP, DD hands him the DADA job, which is in the sense > that I spoke of, setting him free to follow his natural path > without a guiding hand, and before he can even blink he's gotten > himself into trouble. Betsy Hp: What trouble? The Unbreakable Vow? That didn't really have anything to do with the DADA job did it? Or, at least, it didn't have anything to do with Snape having some sort of addiction to the dark arts, IMO. It *may* have been the manifestation of the curse on the job. (In fact, I wonder if that thought ran through Snape's mind when he heard the final part of the Vow, "So this is how it will end," sort of thing.) The question in regards to the Vow is *why* Snape entered into it in the first place. I doubt it was because of an unhealthy eagerness to throw himself into some sort of dark magic. (Personally, I think it was to give himself room to nudge Draco in the right direction.) > >>Valky: > The pattern is definitely there. The problem is stringing it > together in a coherent and believable fashion. Betsy Hp: I think there's definitely a pattern of Snape involving himself in the dark arts. He was a Death Eater, after all. However, I don't see anything pointing to an unhealthy addiction to or fascination with the dark arts. At least, not in adult!Snape. > >>Valky: > > This we do know, Snape was *trying* to get James expelled by going > to the Willow, but James saw through to something else as well and > saved him... > Betsy Hp: This is kind of an aside from our main discussion, but I'm leery of giving too pure a motive to James decision to interfer with Sirius's prank. I somehow doubt that the James of Snape's Worst Memory would have been motivated by his interest in bringing out the good in Snape. Rather, I think James realized that Sirius's prank would quite possibly end in murder, Sirius in Azkaban, Remus executed, and Dumbledore disgraced. I think James didn't think Snape deserved to *die*, but I think he was probably also motivated by his love for both Sirius and Remus and Hogwarts itself. Of course we won't know for certain until we see the prank play out, but JKR hasn't introduced a saint yet. I doubt she'll start with Saint James. (All my opinion of course.) Betsy Hp From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 00:51:29 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:51:29 -0000 Subject: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mari" wrote: > Could > JKR be leading us towards a similar conclusion, that what looks > like failure may well be the very opposite when we have all the > information? This ties in rather well to the idea of last judgement > love, and the theme which is evident throughout the series that > the truth is not always what appears on the surface. > > Well, enough babbling from me for now ;-) > > Mari. Valky: I have been thinking this since two hours after my first reading of HBP. I totally agree Mari. The illusion of failure is a such a perfect disguise for a successful plan. A sleight of hand, we already know, is a DD specialty. He is excellent at distraction, and I remember that many of us were coming round to think that this was DD's tactic after our readings of OOtP. In his end of OotP speech DD pretty much wrote off the prophecy as useless, and we were all beating our heads wondering "*WHY* Harry didn't you ask what all the protection and weapon nonsense was about then?" A long forgotten stream of thought tht ran through these threads but I'd like to bring it up again because Mari definitely touches on what we were thinking then, and probably *should* be thinking now. Waaaay back then, we here at HPFGU wondered to ourselves if the whole Order Guard at the DOM was little more than an elaborate distraction while DD and a few others went personally and deliberately after the real target. Well I think Mari points out that we *were* right about that. DD spent the best proportion of OOtP chasing down Toms history and trying to get his hands on the clues to the Horcruxes. DD found *two* Horcruxes, deduced that Nagini might be another, began gathering together more of the information he needed to identify others for Harry. DD was busy for the past two years, and he got a *bit* done. I have been wondering if it wasn't actually a *lot* more than we know at this stage. And all cleverly disguised as doing sweet bugger all. Brilliant! The other train of thought that this lead me to was that I wondered and mused hopefully that if Dumbledore had died within the framework of his plan, with the glad benefit that it would make Voldies own eyes betray him into thinking he was winning, then perhaps the same could apply to Sirius' journey beyond the veil. In the Mugglenet interview JKR vindicates us Sirius fans our unwavering faith in his loyalty and his claim that he would give his life for Harry. Yeah it was a point I clung to with both hands. "I KNEW It!" thought me, Sirius *would* lay down his life to protect Harry and his dear friends. So there is yet, a chance that he DID! And I ponder that to this day. What actually did cause Sirius to go out in a Blaze of Glory on that day in the MOM, was he *really* still under strict orders from Dumbledore to stay put at Grimmauld Place, or did DD give him a job to do? I cling to the tiny shred of hope that this might be the case and Mari's post has renewed that hope. DD assumes full responsibility for Sirius' death to Harry in his speech at the end of OOtP. Harry is *not* listening to him when he does it, he's still angry as hell about it, but DD indeed says I am to blame. He goes on to talk about the kind of man Sirius was, and then covers for Harry the matters of Kreacher and the way Voldie had *tricked* Harry. He says very little more about his hand in Sirius' death except that he could not take the *whole* of the blame for a person like Sirius running out to meet his death bravely as he did. Here is the quote: ....Harry roared.'I don't want to hear *anything* you've got to say!' 'You will,'said Dumbledore stedily. 'Because you are not nearly as angry with me as you ought to be. If you are to attack me, I would like to have throroughly earned it.' 'What are you talking - ?' 'It is *my* fault Sirius died' said Dumbledore clearly. 'Or should I say, almost entirely my fault - I will not be so arrogant as to claim responsibility for the whole. ...' OOtP 729 DD goes on to establish how brave and energetic Sirius was. Implying in the conclusion that part of the blame lies in *credit* to Sirius. This certainly doesn't sound like a meaningless death to me. So yeah, I am with you there Mari, I think we'd been not looking real hard if we called the outcome of HBP just another tragedy. Cedric was a tragedy, I believe. The saddest thing of all. The one to be remembered as the innocent sacrifice who *needn't* have died. Sirius and Dumbledore we are reminded carefully, are men with purpose and courage the kind who would give their own lives completely, wouldn't become ghosts or try to avoid giving the gift that selfless actions could provide to those they love. These are not the simply miserable tragedies that they first appear. So what exactly *are* they? Valky From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 00:53:44 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:53:44 -0000 Subject: Snape as hero? WAS: Re: Why would Snape want the DADA position? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137937 > > Alla wrote: > > I think Sherry was only talking about one person, who to her does not > deserve to be called heroic at the moment. :-) To me too. > > And whether we like it or not, JKR said it in the interview that for > her it is more interesting that at the end Hero must do his job > alone. So, Harry received a lot of help during the book and hopefully > she would allow him at least receive help from Ron and Hermione at > the end, but I sincerely doubt that any adult will be allowed to help > him in the final confrontation. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I suppose she did mean one character, but, it still goes back to as you say Harry going it alone. Is he the only hero, Has JKR made the perfect little hero to go it alone?? Isn't it how you get there that is just as importaint not just the last battle?....Is everyone just wating for the climax of the book to find interest and to find out Harry did it on his own??? He still would not be doing it alone, if he has a little help or minor help, just because he faces Voldemort or Snape in the final battle, TO me, he is not doing it alone, if he has any help in the book from anyone, he's not going alone. No man is an island, though, Snape does look like one doesn't he. (laughs) > > > > Alla wrote: > > As Nora postulated recently you can draw two very different charts > for Snape actions throuhout the books and yes, under Evil!Snape or > out for himself! Snape it is possible to explain away ALL his actions > as not heroic at all. > > And under ANY kind of Snape I would never ever call Unbreakable Vow > to be heroic action. IF Snape is good ( that equals Snape not > knowing the task,correct?) THEN I call him taking the Vow to be very > idiotic action, because he basically binding himself to do whatever > Voldemort asks of Draco , and I think Snape knows that Voldemort > usually asks his followers to do bad very bad things. > > If Snape KNOWS what task is asked so then he chooses to let > Narcissa's request override his loyalty to Dumbledore. > > Nope, NOT heroic in my book. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well, it falls down to if he actually knew what it was Draco had to do....but still, If someone came begging to you to save there child, I don't know. Maybe he hoped he could get Draco out of it somehow, maybe that would explain all that running around and some of the things that are confusing and causing so many theories in the book. Maybe Snape hoped in taking the vow he could find a way to get Draco out of the task. This is one reason some people come up with so many idea's on why Dumbledore seemed to expect Draco, and how calm and collected Dumbledore was with the boy. I can see Snape in many ways on why he would take the vow. Was it to prove his loyalty in the two Sister's eyes....possibly, but, he seemed sorta smug/sarcastic with Belle, as if, I think he wouldn't really care what her opinion of him was. So, as he said, If the dark lord believes me whats your problem Belle. I can see it as loyalty to the Malfoy's--If he was very good friends with them, regardless of what we think of them--maybe to him, they are the only family/friends he has. If this is the case, I can see him easily taking the vow with Narcissa. If you put yourself into his position, if James and Sirius did pick on him they way it is portrayed in OOTP, then its easy to draw a line and say, Snape would not automaticlly become buddy buddy with them, this isn't saying he's right for the choices he has made, its just a way to try and understand how it could have happened. Maybe he is showing loyalty to the Malfoy's because in some way they are the only people that have shown loyalty to him. Sooo, the question would be What would he have to be loyal to James/Sirius and the people they considered friends, or shall I just say the Order. It has also been said well he took the vow because he's protecting himself from Voldemort. Meh, I don't know I've said this before, somehow, I don't see Snape killing Voldemort is going to show Voldemort anything, to me, its going to make Voldemort ask too many questions, and give Voldemort a reason to be afraid of Snape. Here is Uni's Prediction, Harry isn't going to kill Snape, Voldemort is..... > Alla wrote: > > If that would mean killing the only person who ever trusted in me > and gave me second chance and kept me from horrible prison Azkaban, I > most definitely would NOT do it. > > Because my loyalty to that person would override any other loyalties > I can have, even the loyalty to my friends, who fight on the side > against which I am supposed to be fighting. > > Would that be tragic that I would have to refuse my friend desperate > plea? YES, of course. But that I would find to be the action of > true Hero during war time. > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well it basicly comes down to if he knows what he had to do, and, the little twitch he has on the last part--maybe he didn't expect Narcissa to ask that of him. It also comes down to this, was Snape pushed into a corner, and my most importaint question, Did Snape actually want to kill Dumbledore?? Regarless of what we think about Snape, I would like to know if he wanted to do it, that to me would say a lot. Maybe by the time he got up to the tower it was too late for him to turn back, I have a feeling those Death Eaters were not just their to watch Draco kill Dumbledore, I have a feeling that if Draco didn't go through with it, They were their to kill Draco too. Why would Snape run so fast, how would he actually know exactly where they were?? He was in the dungeon, was this pre-arranged in some way that he would know where to look for Dumbledore. Some have said, well why didn't Snape just kill all the death eaters.....wow, and here I was thinking Snape was Super Snape for smacking harry around at the end of HBP, now he's going to take on 6 DE.....If he could do that....What the HECK do we need Harry for??? (laughs) For that matter, whats he doing working at a school, he should be ruling the world already..... Oh well, Speaking as a person that her two favorite characters were Dumbledore and Snape--I think I'm probably the most anksty member in the HP group--BUT, still wants a Happy ending, and doesn't want access killing, but, I guess if Snape deserves it then he deserves it, but like I said, I don't know if Harry is going to kill Snape, for some reason lately I think Voldemort is gonna kill him, or at least someone else. Karen From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 01:01:52 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:01:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Sound of Music Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137938 (haha) OK, I've seen other people post song parody here, so, I decided to post my own, so, for your entertainment and laughing enjoyment, even if you do happen to hate Snape with the vengence of a super nova explotion, I think, you can still laugh at this so here goes. Snape's Sound of Music Doe a deer.... A STUPID Potter Patronus Dear. Ray.... How Sirius Black anksts my Nerrrvvveess. Me... So cool, IN LONG BLACK ROBES... Fa... Get that werwolf FA away from meeeeee... So... I can rule the world and have a super model.... OK that really doesn't work but who careeessss... La... put that hand down Granger you dunderheadddd.... Te.... erm....it goes good with jam and bread.... And that brings us back to... DOE....a... Snape is glaring at me now so, I better stop. hehehee. KarentheUnicorn From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Aug 18 01:03:33 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:03:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <015901c5a390$a946e160$463a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137939 Cedric was a tragedy, I believe. The saddest thing of all. The one to be remembered as the innocent sacrifice who *needn't* have died. Sirius and Dumbledore we are reminded carefully, are men with purpose and courage the kind who would give their own lives completely, wouldn't become ghosts or try to avoid giving the gift that selfless actions could provide to those they love. These are not the simply miserable tragedies that they first appear. So what exactly *are* they? Valky Sherry now: I think I could find myself not so sad about Dumbledore's death, if we learn in time that he planned for Sirius to die. That it was another of his not so clever plans after all. That would be cruelty to Harry beyond what i, and very possibly Harry, could forgive. Perhaps, I'm misunderstanding what you were trying to say though. Knowing the character of Sirius, it's easy to see him rushing off to rescue Harry. Is it also likely that he would have knowingly entered into a secret plan with Dumbledore, to be killed and leave Harry an orphan again? I am not implying that he would have been afraid to die, just that he would not have agreed to leave Harry. Or are you thinking it was a Dumbledore plan without the knowledge and agreement of Sirius? Some have suggested in the past, that Sirius was killed by an order member, as a way of either getting him out of the way or for the furthering of some plan. Or of course, if it's someone ESE in the order to remove one of Harry's protectors. Oh let it not be that Dumbledore planned the death of Sirius, too! Did he also plan the deaths of James and Lily? Shudder. Sherry who must confess she is a sentimental reader at times and can't bear puppet master Dumbledore concocting plots and plans with everyone, that end up causing Harry more grief and pain! From mariabronte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 01:35:10 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:35:10 -0000 Subject: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? In-Reply-To: <015901c5a390$a946e160$463a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137940 > Sherry > who must confess she is a sentimental reader at times and can't bear puppet > master Dumbledore concocting plots and plans with everyone, that end up > causing Harry more grief and pain! Mari again: Oh dear, lol! I certainly didn't mean to suggest that. It's not necessary to my theory that Dumbledore planned for Sirius to die, let alone James and Lily. I don't see DD as someone who uses people like puppets; I simply meant that there is evidence in canon,as I summarised, to suggest that Dumbledore's style is to work indirectly. Much of what he wished to accomplish somehow gets done, often without him appearing to be involved. I think there were other factors beyond DD's control at work in the deaths of Sirius and Cedric, and like your idea of someone ESE in the order working to remove Harry's protectors; its a possibility. All I tentatively wanted to suggest is that just because Dumbledore has *appeared* to fail in his plans through OotP and HBP, doesn't mean that he actually *has* failed. The deaths of Sirius and Cedric do not mean failure. I have never believed that evil will triumph in the end in the HP universe. Mari :-) From mcjuels at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 00:16:30 2005 From: mcjuels at yahoo.com (mcjuels) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:16:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137941 After reading HBP twice and listening to the tapes, I keep going back to three Dumbledore quotes from "The Lightning Struck Tower." 1 "Well, I certainly did have a drink...and I came back...after a fashion." Could mean "I drank poison, I died, and I came back...sort of." 2. "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." Could mean "You can't kill me because I am already dead." 3. "No Draco, said Dumbledore quietly, "it is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now." Could mean "I have sacrificed my life and you won't have to kill me." Here's what I wonder. Could the potion in the cave be turning Dumbledore into an Inferi? So...go ahead and tell me why I am wrong. Please! McJuels From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Aug 18 03:00:41 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:00:41 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137942 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "merpsiren" wrote: > I have really spent some time with the following theory and am ready > to see what everyone else thinks... > > > > Now, if you buy into my theory, and then read HBP pg. 571-572. The > basin in the cave is filled with the green poison and is described as > looking like a pensieve. I believe that the liquid that Dumbledore > drinks is very much like a pensieve memory, it is Snape's worst > memory. The agonizing utterances from Dumbledore as he consumes this > horrible poison I believe to be the actual memory of Snape at the time > of his own family's murder. Read the passages with Snape as the > speaker pleading with Voldemort to spare "them" for a horrible mistake > that he (Snape) has made (not sharing the prophecy with Voldemort). I > read the beginning (the first things Dumbledore utters after drinking > the poison) as Snape fighting off the legilimency from Voldemort as he > enters Snapes mind and retrieves the info afout the prophecy , "don't > like... want to stop... I don't want to... Let me go... make it stop, > make it stop." Followed by Snape pleading that his family be spared, > "It's all my fault, all my fault... I know I did wrong, oh please make > it stop and I'll never, never again... Don't hurt them... it's my > fault, hurt me instead... Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!" > > Snape has lost everything. I believe this is the reason Dumbledore > implicitly believes and trusts Snape. Snape wants vengence as much as > Harry does. > > Merprisen Merprisen, Okay, that's a cool theory. It doesn't really hold with the canon, I don't think, because weren't we told that a Death Eater *went to* Voldemort and told him about the prophecy? I'll suspend that notion, though, because I like the theory otherwise. Let's fill in a few holes. Why would Snape expect that Voldemort would come after his kid if he truly was on the DE's side? Why did Voldemort then go after Harry? Why would someone (Voldemort, RAB, whoever) fill up that basin with Snape's worst memory? Allie From Nanagose at aol.com Thu Aug 18 03:04:47 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:04:47 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137946 Merprisen: > Snape saved the information from the prophecy in an > attempt to protect his own family from death. Voldemort later finds > this information out from using legilimency against Snape and is > furious with Snape that he withheld it. Voldemort then interprets > the prophecy to mean Snape's child will potentially be the one with > the power to destroy the Dark Lord. The punishment for this > betrayal was death for Snape's wife and child. Christina: That's actually a really well-thought out theory (and it incorporates a lot of unanswered questions), although I'm not sure how much I buy into it on the whole. I can't see Voldemort being even *that* merciful- I doubt he ever would have trusted Snape again, certainly not enough to accept him back when he returned late at the end of GoF. But...I love the idea of Snape's family being in danger. I strongly believe that the reason DD is so sure of Snape's loyalty DOES have something to do with Snape's family (although I always theorized it had to do with Irma Pince, who I think is Snape's mom). Your theory also hits on something that has bothered me for a long, long time: (from JKR's rumor bin) Rumor: Luna is Snape's daughter JKR: This is a most tantalising idea, but no, Mr. Lovegood, the editor of 'the Quibbler', really is Luna's father and Snape does not have a daughter. Doesn't it seem odd that she says "Snape does not have a daughter?" I would think that it would be much more natural to just say, "Snape doesn't have any children." Another quote that is relevant to your theory: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. She chooses to answer the question by saying, "Who would want Snape in love with them?" rather than saying something like, "Snape doesn't have the capacity to love," or just an outright, "No, I don't think so." She says "That's a very horrible idea," but is she referring to the idea that Snape could be in love with someone, or the reaction that person would have (I hope I'm getting my point through there)? Christina From hexicon at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 03:05:18 2005 From: hexicon at yahoo.com (Kristen) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:05:18 -0000 Subject: Do the math In-Reply-To: <4303A621.7020300@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > Kathy writes:> [snip] 1. If Dumbledore knew that one of these two > boys would be important to the downfall of Voldemort, would he not have > warned both families shortly after their births? [snip] I just think that since only two boys in the whole WW were born at > the end of July, and that only two families fit the qualification of > "defying" Voldemort three times, it would not be too much to expect > Dumbledore to warn them well in advance. Kristen: We know from JKR's 2004 chat that Harry's christening was a rushed affair since the Potters were about to go into hiding. Depending on what we view as the likely timing of the christening, it sounds like they were warned pretty soon after Harry's birth. Kristen (who is eating crystallized pineapple right now) From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Aug 18 03:18:10 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:18:10 -0000 Subject: What will be the title of book 7? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137948 I know we'll never, EVER guess it, but just for fun: Harry Potter and the... ... Horcruxes of Riddle ... Legend of Godric's Hollow (my favorite choice) ... Dark Lord (needs something else) ... Missing Sword (Gryffindor's, of course) ... Prophecy Fulfilled ... Downfall of Voldemort ... Search for the (insert any Horcrux here) ... Dementors' Revenge ... Return of Aberforth Dumbledore (kidding) ... Scar that is Not a Horcrux ... Reason that Lily's Eyes Are So Important Okay I'm just being silly now. Anyone else? Real titles or humorous? Allie From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 03:36:06 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:36:06 -0000 Subject: What will be the title of book 7? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137949 OK You asked for it, just remember, blame yourself for this reply (HEHEHE) Harry Potter and the Seven Horcuxes.....haha, naaa Too Easy. Harry Potter and I'm finally an Adult Lets get Wasted....um...naa, too silly. Harry Potter The FINAL CHAPTER....meh...to corny. Harry Potter and Sweet Revenge, the death of Snape.....Naaa..Tooo LONG...and not to mention would spoil the inside. Harry Potter and Dementors are Breeding,my eye are burning....whao..really to long, and too scary for kids. Harry Potter and The Secret Horcuxes...ouuu sounds like a mystery...hum..could be something there. Harry Potter and I want my money back.....For those who end up being really disappointed....Naaa...JKR wouldn't be that obvious, she might put Harry Potter and I got your money..(FOFLOL) Harry Potter and Love Stinks.....A Snape story....for the Lily/Snape shippers.....does another FOFLOL. Harry Potter the American Adventure....OH YES....Summer Vacation NOT at the Dursley's....Who's got sunblock these kids need some sun if you ask me, kidnapps them all and sends them to a beach somewhere..or something.... Harry Potter the American Adventure Part 2....Snape's torture....Snape is captured, sent to Disney world in August, No wand, and has to take care of 15, five year olds....Yes Severus Snape, revenge is sweet isn't it.....Snape's Last words....just kill me please. Yes, they are getting worse as I go along...So I better quite now...hehe. KarentheUnicorn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 03:39:37 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:39:37 -0000 Subject: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? In-Reply-To: <015901c5a390$a946e160$463a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137950 > Valky earlier: > Cedric was a tragedy, I believe. The saddest thing of all. The one > to be remembered as the innocent sacrifice who *needn't* have died. > Sirius and Dumbledore we are reminded carefully, are men with > purpose and courage the kind who would give their own lives > completely, wouldn't become ghosts or try to avoid giving the gift > that selfless actions could provide to those they love. These are > not the simply miserable tragedies that they first appear. > > So what exactly *are* they? > Sherry now: > > I think I could find myself not so sad about Dumbledore's death, if > we learn in time that he planned for Sirius to die. That it was > another of his not so clever plans after all. Valky again: *cough* I am sorry I touched that nerve in you Sherrie. Am I allowed to giggle at the sarcasm, just a little bit *smile* you are very witty about it. Um there's really no way around actually admitting to you that, yes, I do believe DD confesses a hand in Sirius' death and means it very much literally. You don't have to like it now, but I think if I am correct about these things, then book seven will be written in such a way that even the most sentimental reader, like yourself, will be at peace with it in the end. Sherrie: > That would be cruelty to Harry beyond what i, > and very possibly Harry, could forgive. > Perhaps, I'm misunderstanding what > you were trying to say though. Valky: I do understand where you're coming from, and you're right that you have misundertsood where I am coming from. However, I will address your point individually because I think that the answer to that particular objection is definitely a crucial part of this theory. I agree that could Harry be spared the cruel pain of the losses he has sustained over the years then absolutely anyone with the power to spare him, should have done so unquestioningly. But notice this.. For one I said *if* he could be spared it. And for two, DD confessed to Harry that he had done almost *nothing* but try to spare Harry a few extra moments of happiness for four years. It was time, frankly, to get down to business. And it *was always* going to hurt Harry and cut this deeply into his heart, but DD didn't do that to him. Voldemort did. When he chose to mark him in Godrics Hollow, Harry was destined to face the life of the prophecy boy who cannot live while the other survives. Think again carefully, wouldn't it be more callous for all of them, Sirius and Dumbledore, maybe even Snape, to sit back on their laurels pressing Harry onward to *his* death, never willing to give their own lives too? Or sacrifice their happiness and comfort? I'm sorry but that would make Sirius and Dumbledore far less wonderful than they actually are in my book. Sherrie: > Knowing the character of Sirius, it's easy > to see him rushing off to rescue Harry. Is it also likely that he > would have knowingly entered into a secret plan with Dumbledore, to > be killed and leave Harry an orphan again? Valky: No, not to "leave Harry an Orphan" I know that, definitely, this was the product of the plan. But what would be the product of no plan then. Remember wht DD told him at the end of OOtP he faces sacrificing himself for the wizard worlds people. Harry would choose to do it, and then what for Sirius and Dumbledore - they go on to happy normal lives..? That's beyond ridiculous, they would never ask him to sacrifice *only* himself if they too, could give something that might provide a last chance for him to have the life that was cruelly taken from him before he was old enough to defend himself. If it takes their lives to give Harry his then they would give it. That's almost all there is to my theory. Harry has already had *everything* taken from him, he has never had a life outside the powerful protection that his mother left him, he has been denied this all and without a victory every sacrifice that has already been made, is in vain. They need the victory, and whatever it takes Harry will do, he said so.. Sirius, Dumbledore they know it.. A victory it is, whatever it takes. Sherrie: > I am not implying that he would have been > afraid to die, just that he would not have agreed to leave Harry. Valky: I know you aren't. But we don't know what choice Sirius might have had in agreeing to leave Harry. If it was the choice between Harry's life and his though, why would Sirius ever choose his own? Sherrie: > Or are you thinking it was a Dumbledore plan without the knowledge > and agreement of Sirius? Valky: Clearly, I m not. And I truly doubt that DD would ever do this, ever! If Sirius died to further the plan then he ran into the DOM entirely upon his own will, knowing that he would *never* come out again, and probably also knowing that if he did die that day, Harry could live and grow and find happiness down the track someday in a world without Voldemort. Sirius would make *this* choice. Sherrie: > Some have suggested in the past, that Sirius was killed by an order > member, as a way of either getting him out of the way or for the > furthering of some plan. Or of course, if it's someone ESE in the > order to remove one of Harry's protectors. Valky: No I ABSOLUTELY don't believe that. Dumbledore was firm in his resolution at the end of GOF. NO more pointless deaths. "Remember Cedric Diggory." I take as a statement that says, what comes after this, you *may* remember as a glorious thing that happened in the Wizard World, but *never forget Cedric*. He deserves to be remembered too, he was a wonderful person who deserves a place in our memories, don't let his death or his life mean nothing to you. Sherrie: > Did he also plan the deaths of James and Lily? > Shudder. Valky: Oh NO not in any WAY! That was *ALL* Lily and James. They gave THEIR lives for THEIR son, Dumbeldore wouldn't even needed to have suggested it. It's just out of the question. > Sherry > who must confess she is a sentimental reader at times and can't bear > puppet master Dumbledore concocting plots and plans with everyone, > that ends up causing Harry more grief and pain! Valky: No, Dumbledore is not the puppetmaster concocting in my theory, it is in no way DD's fault that the responsibility comes to him to stand behind Harry through this all. But I believe he has to take this responsibility or leave the WW and Harry to Voldemort. I do not envy him the choices that he would need to make to subvert the sinister ingenuity of a wizard like LV. If Sirius and DD died for the plan, then they died because without their sacrifice all was lost for Harry, for his friends and for all the people of the WW. And it seems to me that they may well have died for this plan. From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Aug 18 03:54:17 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:54:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001c5a3a8$82eeabc0$df3b79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137951 > Sherry > who must confess she is a sentimental reader at times and can't bear > puppet master Dumbledore concocting plots and plans with everyone, > that ends up causing Harry more grief and pain! Valky: No, Dumbledore is not the puppetmaster concocting in my theory, it is in no way DD's fault that the responsibility comes to him to stand behind Harry through this all. But I believe he has to take this responsibility or leave the WW and Harry to Voldemort. I do not envy him the choices that he would need to make to subvert the sinister ingenuity of a wizard like LV. If Sirius and DD died for the plan, then they died because without their sacrifice all was lost for Harry, for his friends and for all the people of the WW. And it seems to me that they may well have died for this plan. Sherry now: I snipped that wonderful post, because there wasn't a need to reply to the individual parts. Yes, I can completely see Sirius making the kind of sacrifice you suggest. It got me crying over Sirius all over again. That poor man, who gave so much, more than a possible sacrifice of his physical life, when you think of the years in Azkaban, and had such a brief time of freedom and so little happiness. If there's any justice in the fates that govern the WW, I hope he gets a smashing big reward. sniffle. And oh yes, you are most definitely free to giggle at my sarcasm, which I did mean humorously, of course, at the beginning of my previous message! Sherry thanking Valky for what might be a reasonable excuse for the death of Sirius. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Aug 18 03:59:12 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:59:12 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" > [snip] > Ah, the contortions Snape lovers go through to maintain their > preconceptions despite the new book is a sight to behold. However I > think it is often wise to alter your views when you receive new > information, like the fact that Snape murdered Dumbledore. And yet > we're still debating if he's evil! Harry certainly believes that he is an eyewitness to Snape killing Dumbledore. But is that *proof*? Sirius spent 12 years in Azkaban for murders that he didn't commit. Yet, the evidence against him was certainly damning. Dumbledore testified that Sirius was the Potters secret-keeper (we now know that he was not). Fudge says this about Black's imprisonment in HPB (Ch.1, page 11) "all the evidence pointed - we had more than fifty eyewitnesses..." *I* don't think it was a coincidence that this statement of Fudge's is in the same book where there is another "eyewitness" account of a murder. Demetra From kjones at telus.net Thu Aug 18 04:04:08 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:04:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do the math In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430408B8.3090406@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 137953 Kristen wrote: > Kristen: > We know from JKR's 2004 chat that Harry's christening was a rushed > affair since the Potters were about to go into hiding. Depending on > what we view as the likely timing of the christening, it sounds like > they were warned pretty soon after Harry's birth. > > Kristen (who is eating crystallized pineapple right now) Kathy writes: By all that's holy, you are right too! How interesting! CathyD, however, was also quite correct in her canon that it was barely a week after the Fidelius Charm was performed that the Potters were killed. So is this a plot glitch, or is it of any importance, was Fudge misinformed, did they have a christening fourteen months and three weeks after he was born? What is with this? Does it even matter? KJ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 04:05:15 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:05:15 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses and Harry's judgement ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137954 >> Betsy Hp: > Well yes, exactly. And that's how Harry seems to see them in the > beginning. Gryffindor was good; Slytherin was bad, and Hufflepuff > and Ravenclaw were... not on his radar really. But as the years > have gone by and Harry has started to grow up his stereotypes about > the Houses and the people in them have begun breaking down. > > Because it's incredibly hard to judge people with a cursory glance. > Or at least, to judge them accurately. Slytherin is the last House > to break out of its stereotype because it's the house Harry had the > biggest grudge against. He went into Hogwarts quite sure it was the > realm of all evil. He's starting to realize, I think (and hope) > that this view is patently untrue. Alla: Heee. I disagree . :-) I may be just repeating my earlier arguments on this topic, but I think JKR's interview and HBP somewhat provides a new twist. I am still convinced that Harry's vision is NOT wrong per se. It is LIMITED,yes, but not wrong. Lupinlore said ( I think) recently that with the amounts of evidence presented Harry judges extremely well, and I tend to agree with him. :-) If something is withhold from Harry by other characters or by JKR's by extension, THEN mistakes can happen, but it is different from saying that Harry is wrong. I am still convinced that Harry judged correctly ALL people he met from Slytherin house ( which is not many, I definitely conceded). I am not going to go back to when Harry met Draco in their first year, we had been through that many times, I just want to point out how wonderfully on target he was when pointing out to every adult and every friend of his that Draco is up to no good. Hmmm, just when Harry starts to overcome his mistrust of adults, nobody believes him and what do you know, Draco was indeed planning Dumbledore assassination. I also want to point out again that Harry was able to feel pity for Draco and to do so it was enough for Harry to witness ONE scene between Draco and Dumbledore. I'd say Harry is able to reassess his conclusions. Oh, I remembered something else from our earlier discussions on this topic ( sorry if you did not make this argument, but I think you did) I think you said earlier that Voldemort twisted Slytherin values for the worst when he came to Slytherin, so before the House was pretty good overall. I think this quote from HBP contradicts it. "He was placed in Slytherin House almost the moment that the Sorting Hat touched his head" - HBP, p.360. I interpret this quote that Tom's values when he just came to Hogwarts were already very similar to what Salazar looking for in his students. We know that Tom showed very bad character at the tender age of eleven, so it seems to me that if Slytherin House was ready to embrace student like Tom, Slytherin's reputation got bad much earlier than Tom's school years. Right, that was an aside. Here is the quote from JKR's interview. Please note that even though she says "they are not all bad" ( and I DO hope that they are not), she says that you are witnessing Slytherin from the perspective of DE children, NOT that you are witnessing Slytherin from Harry's perspective which is incorrect. The way I interpret is that what you SEE is correct, but you are not seeing everything. "ES: Yes! I mean, it's such a stigma. JKR: But they're not all bad. They literally are not all bad. [Pause.] Well, the deeper answer, the non-flippant answer, would be that you have to embrace all of a person, you have to take them with their flaws, and everyone's got them. It's the same way with the student body. If only they could achieve perfect unity, you would have an absolute unstoppable force, and I suppose it's that craving for unity and wholeness that means that they keep that quarter of the school that maybe does not encapsulate the most generous and noble qualities, in the hope, in the very Dumbledore-esque hope that they will achieve union, and they will achieve harmony. Harmony is the word. ES: Couldn't ? JKR: Couldn't they just shoot them all? NO, Emerson, they really couldn't! [All laugh] ES: Couldn't they just put them into the other three houses, and maybe it wouldn't be a perfect fit for all of them, but a close enough fit that they would get by and wouldn't be in such a negative environment? JKR: They could. But you must remember, I have thought about this ? ES: Even their common room is a gloomy dark room? JKR: Well, I don't know, because I think the Slytherin common room has a spooky beauty. ES: It's gotta be a bad idea to stick all the Death Eaters' kids together in one place. [All crack up again ] JKR: But they're not all ? don't think I don't take your point, but ? we, the reader, and I as the writer, because I'm leading you all there ? you are seeing Slytherin house always from the perspective of Death Eaters' children. They are a small fraction of the total Slytherin population. I'm not saying all the other Slytherins are adorable, but they're certainly not Draco, they're certainly not, you know, Crabbe and Goyle. They're not all like that, that would be too brutal for words, wouldn't it? ES: But there aren't a lot of Death Eater children in the other houses, are there? JKR: You will have people connected with Death Eaters in the other houses, yeah, absolutely. ES: Just in lesser numbers. JKR: Probably. I hear you. It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and balance, that you had four necessary components and by integrating them you would make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, as we know." > > >>Prep0strus: What I mean to say, I guess, is 'appealing', though > > that's a bit subjective. I want a Slytherin I can LIKE. > > > > Betsy Hp: > Ahh, yes. That is a different sort of request. I think you'll meet > a Slytherin you can like when Harry meets a Slytherin he can like. Alla: Ooo, I so with Preposterous here. I want a Slytherin I would like and I have not met one yet, which I fully like ( and NO Betsy, I don't think it matters whether Harry would like this person or not in order for me to like him/her, but I suppose otherwise we would not meet such person in the first place. It is funny, because I have a feeling that Slughorn is the best Slytherin we are going to get, but I think that in his portrayal JKR shows the dangers of bad ambition ( by bad ambition I mean desire to succeed by any means possible, no matter whom you hurt into process). So, yes, especially in light of interview I am even more convinced that at the end the Houses will dissolve and will achieve that unity JKR is talking about. Then it will be no need for Slytherin House to boil in their own juices and all other houses will be able to integrate the best qualities from each other and downplay the worst. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From ehteshamulh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 03:34:14 2005 From: ehteshamulh at yahoo.com (ehteshamulh) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:34:14 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137955 Who do you think will be the next Head Boy and Head Girl? This is, of course, assuming that Hogwarts remains open during Year 7. I wonder if the eight prefects, plus the senior members of the Quidditch teams form a sort of short list for the two positions. Would both/either of the posts go to members of the trio? I can see Hermione as Head Girl, she's everything that Percy was (and a bit more), and he was good enough to be Head Boy. Ehtesham From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 04:25:49 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:25:49 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137956 Eggplant: >I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore reluctantly >on Dumbledore's orders and at heart Snape is really a pussycat theory. >I believe any one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea. Now me: I find myself in a very interesting position on this subject. Had this event happened pre-HBP, I would have been amongst those arguing for Redemption!Snape and looking to subtle, hidden clues to support this argument. I would have been arguing for the Snape of many layers. I would have argued that the author was in control of her narrative and that no clues that were placed there should be considered coincidental. To be honest, I would prefer a Snape with layers, subtlety and depth to the cardboard cut out Evil!Snape would be (and the cardboard cut out Voldemort has rather distrubingly become.. Psychopathic genetics? Whatever happened to the value of choice?). BUT (and here's the clincher) because it has occurred in HBP and I have been able to see how the author has treated and resolved other subplots, I am more inclined to believe that Snape will turn out to be a bad guy. (Particularly given her comments in the latest interview). That might sound unfair but I believe the Good Guy vs Bad Guy Snape arguments share some similarities in dynamics to the shipping arguments - obvious vs subtle - and we all know who was right on that one. ;) I think that to pull off Redemption!Snape, she would have to be writing with a depth of meaning, layering and subtlety that I personally no longer believe she intends, though it pains me to say it. Instead, it seems to me that she sacrificed a Redepmtion!Snape to the altar of cheap thrills and that is that. Once again, JMO (though I'd love to be convinced otherwise). Please don't shoot me. Sienna From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Aug 17 21:40:38 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:40:38 -0000 Subject: "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137958 > colebiancardi: *(snip)* > > calling him Voldemort is perhaps > > dangerous for him - perhaps there is a connection or > > something with the DE's & LV when they utter his name. > > Or that that this is for Snape to *stay* in his role > > as a Death Eater...*(snip)* > > houyhnhnm: > Snape success as an occlumens seems to be based in large part on not > allowing memories or feelings that would contradict the lie to be > created in the first place...*(snip)* > Calling LV "Voldemort" would create a memory of doing so and also a > memory of the feeling that would accompany saying it--defiance. Only > those who are not afraid of Voldmort and ready to defy him call him > "Voldemort". Ceridwen: In this odd state Voldemort's in, with his soul in potentially four (or more?) different places, spread thin, a superb Legilimens, yadda- yadda, I've often wondered if invoking his name is thought to invoke his ear in a conversation, even when he's miles away. Maybe for a good reason, maybe because of superstition (and calling him 'You-Know- Who' and other epithets smacks of a bit of superstition to me), but that's something I've been thinking for some time. I don't have OotP in front of me, but I think that at one point (during Occlumency lessons?) when Harry calls him Voldemort in front of Snape, he notices Snape absently rubbing his left forearm where he bears the Mark. Maybe for Death Eaters, there is a connection when the name is mentioned? Or, maybe for Harry, who is in some way connected to him anyway? Ceridwen. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Aug 18 04:48:25 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:48:25 -0000 Subject: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137959 -aussie- Dang. I don't like Snape. I have trusted Harry / Neville and Sirius's feelings for most of the series, but there is one point I can't get around. If Snape is a full DE, Snape will tell LV of the hunt for Horcruxes now. If that happens, alarms would be set at each site to kill Harry ... or they will be hidden more thoroughly than they have for the last 50 years. Since JKR is not planning another 50 books, but wants to wrap it up with #7, ... I'm sorry to say this, but ... SNAPE IS NOT EVI- ... I can't say it (wimpers). DID SNAPE KNOW ABOUT HORCRUXES?- Snape would have to know what kind of injury DD had the first time DD cured him after the ring. (HBP ch 23) 'Yes indeed,' said Dumbledore, and he raised his blackened, burned-looking hand. 'The ring, Harry. Marvolo's ring. And a terrible curse there was upon it too. Had it, not been - forgive me the lack of seemly modesty - for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale. ..." (part 1) From klodiana_xha at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 04:09:31 2005 From: klodiana_xha at yahoo.com (klodiana_xha) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 04:09:31 -0000 Subject: advanced potion-making Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137960 I don't know if you noticed this but when Harry tries to find out if his dad is the HBP, Lupin tells him to check out how old the book was. The book was 50 years old, so Harry dismisses the possibility that it was James' or any other's who was around at his time. How come Snape is the owner of the book? Is it because he uses secondhand books (do we know that?)? Is it just an error or something else? Klodiana From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 05:24:43 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 05:24:43 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137961 Note: this is a repost with a new subject line. I'm deleting the original CathyD wrote: Harry didn't kill Quirrell. Voldemort did. Quirrell was still alive and fighting Harry for the Stone when Dumbledore arrived. Gatta responded: > The book doesn't really make it clear what happened. The impression I got was that Quirrel died of contact with Harry, sort of passive > killing but killing nonetheless. In any case, we end up with a live > Harry and a dead Quirrel, which in most circumstances would take some explaining ("I dunno, officer, he just sort of evilled to death..."). Carol takes a deep breath and plunges in: Although SS/PS is admittedly vague about Quirrell's death (unlike the film, which makes Harry directly responsible), Voldemort indicates in GoF that Quirrell died when he (Vapormort) left his (Quirrell's) body. This fate corresponds with that of the animals Vapormort possesses. He uses up their life and energy keeping himself alive just as a parasite kills its host. In fact, he is exactly that, a parasite. He has taken what he can from Quirrell and discards him when he is through. However, I'd like to propose a slightly different twist regarding Quirrell's fate and tie it to that of the other DADA professors. While Quirrell is killed by the mechanism I've described, he is also, like all the other DADA professors, a victim of the DADA jinx (which appears, actually, to be a rather sinister curse considering the grim fates of the DADA teachers we've seen so far). I would even go so far as to say that Quirrell is killed either by the will of Voldemort acting through the DADA curse, or by the curse itself, which seems to have taken on a life or mind of its own. (Mr. Weasley warns us about objects that seem able to think for themselves. What about an abstract entity like a class that destroys everyone who teaches it?) We first hear of the jinx in SS/PS when Percy tells the new Griffindors about it, also correctly informing us that Snape applies for the DADA course every year (why he would do so knowing that it's jinxed is another question, which I've explored in message 137706). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137706 Percy's information is confirmed in GoF (Snape applying for the post every year) and HBP (the jinx on the position is real, not a rumor spread by students). Moreover, the jinx (or curse) has been placed by Voldemort himself and has been in place since he applied for the position a second time (at a point when he had made some but not all of his Horcruxes). If my math and memory are correct, he's about 35 years old at this time, which would make Snape a child of about three. (Harry, of course, is about eighteen years in the future.) Professor Merrythought has, we presume, long since retired and we don't know who held the position between her retirement, ca. 1945, and the placement of the jinx, ca. 1963. We also don't know what happened to the victims of the jinx in the long years between the placement of the jinx and Harry's arrival at Hogwarts in 1991--except for one. Young professor Quirrell teaches DADA for what we must assume is one year and then gets the wild idea of pursuing vampires and other Dark creatures in Albania, exactly the place where Vapormort is hiding. Since we know that the jinx is at work and is real, this desire must be its manifestation the first time he teaches the course. It draws him from the seemingly safe haven of Hogwarts right into the not yet visible arms of Voldemort. Quirrell is gone for a year, during which some unknown teacher bravely or foolishly teaches the course. We don't know what happens to him or her, but the position is again open when Quirrell reapplies (as does Snape, but DD for whatever reason, and I've already presented my views on the subject, chooses Quirrell). This time Quirrell has brought his own doom with him. Somehow (and this is a question I can't explore here but am curious about) he has brought Vapormort back to England with him, perhaps as a deformed infant or concealed inside Nagini. We don't know and it isn't relevant here. It's important to note, however, that Voldemort is *not yet inside Quirrell's head* when Quirrell is given the position. He looks perfectly normal, if understandably pale and nervous, when he shakes hands with Harry in the Leaky Cauldron. He's introduced as Harry's DADA instructor, so he already has the position. That same day, probably immediately after Hagrid takes the Sorceror's Stone out of the vault, Quirrell tries to rob the same vault and is punished by his failure to steal it by having Voldemort possess him. Next time we see Quirrell, he is wearing the purple turban to disguise the face in the back of his head. The DADA jinx has manifested itself though no one except Snape suspects what Quirrell is concealing. It's only a matter of time (a three-term school year, of course) before Auirrell fails his master again and meets his doom. Voldemort and the curse operate in tandem, whether Voldemort consciously wills it or not, to bring Quirrell down, to utterly and permanently destroy him. His loyalty means nothing to Voldemort, who cares no more about his followers than about his enemies. Lockhart is a less clearcut case of the link between the DADA jinx and Voldemort's will as he's only indirectly linked to Voldemort (in the form of Diary!Tom) because as the DADA teacher, he ought to be trying to solve the Riddle (sorry!) of the Chamber of Secrets. He is not a DE or in any sense a servant of Voldemort, only a fool and a pretender. He, too, brings his doom with him in the sense that his masquerade is bound to be exposed, especially with Snape watching him (as he also watched, followed, and attempted to thwart Quirrell). Perhaps Lockhart dooms himself when he brags that he knows just the countercurse that could have saved Mrs. Norris (who of course is only petrified, not dead). He certainly exposes himself as a fraud at this point, in front of Snape, who later makes a fool of him using Expelliarmus in DADA and informs him when Ginny Weasley has been taken into the Chamber of Secrets that his moment has come, a wittily sarcastic remark that is supported by Flitwick and McGonagall. But the agent of Lockhart's undoing is neither Snape nor Voldemort (in the form of Diary!Tom, waiting in the Chamber with the possessed and dying Ginny), but Ron Weasley's wand, which is broken at the beginning of the school year when the Flying Ford Anglia lands in the Whomping Willow. Lockhart attempts an evil action (wiping out Ron's and Harry's memories and letting Ginny die) and immediately receives poetic justice when the wand backfires and wipes out his own memory. The DADA curse, or the will of Voldemort acting through it, has shaped a punishment appropriate for him using an instrument, the broken wand, that has been waiting to do the job since the beginning of the term. Lupin, too, brings his doom with him. He is hiding secrets--not merely that he is a werewolf, which Dumbledore and Snape know quite well, as does Madam Pomfrey, but that his friend Sirius Black, whom he believes to be a murderer and traitor but still loves as the friend of his youth, is an animagus who knows how to get into Hogwarts using the Whomping Willow. Lupin confiscates the Marauders Map from Harry but does not give it to Dumbledore because it would give away what he's concealing about Sirius Black. When Black enters Hogwarts twice, first slashing the Fat Lady's portrait and then slashing Ron's bedcurtains with a twelve-inch knife (intent on murder, but not of Ron), Snape suspects that Lupin has let him in, and yet Snape keeps his mouth shut and continues to make Lupin's wolfbane potion "perfectly,", and all seems well while Lupin dutifully takes it. Then, near the end of term, Lupin sees Peter Pettigrew on the Marauders Map and rushes out to the Shrieking Shack. Snape, coming in with the potion, sees Lupin (but not Pettigrew) on the map. Knowing that Lupin is about to turn into a werewolf and guessing that the "murderer" Black is in the Shrieking Shack, he follows him, leaving the steaming and frothing potion behind. But what possessed the level-headed Lupin to rush out, forgetting his potion on a full moon night, leaving the map (which he should have turned in to Dumbldore) where Snape or anyone else could see it? And why has Sirius chosen this night to haul poor Ron, with Scabbers in his pocket, into the Shrieking Shack, just as Lupin happens to be looking at the map? In my view, it's the DADA curse manifesting itself. The connection with Voldemort is there in the form of his "servant," Peter Pettigrew, whom Lupin sees on the map, who appears in Trelawney's prophecy, and who will escape to resurrect Voldemort, in part because of Lupin's transformation. The agent in Lupin's case is the Marauders Map, which Lupin helped to make years before, and which is placed in Harry's hands early in the year. It's confiscated by Snape, who knows perfectly well that Lupin is connected with it (and may suspect that it's a map) and calls Lupin into his office to look at it. Lupin claims it, keeping it from Harry, but is too weak-willed to turn it in to Dumbledore and confess what he suspects--that Sirius, in dog form, is hiding in the Shrieking Shack and using the secret passageway, one of seven shown on the map, to get into the school. Near the end of the term, the map betrays Lupin, one of its makers, by revealing the supposedly dead Peter Pettigrew, another maker, at the Whomping Willow. Lupin forgets everything--the potion, the full moon, the map itself--in the sudden joyful realization that Sirius is innocent. Snape, bringing in the potion, also sees the map, but does not see Pettigrew and consequently has no such epiphany. He knows only that Lupin, who has not had his potion and is about to transform into a werewolf, is rushing to the Shrieking Shack to join the friend Snape thinks is a murderer. Snape is knocked unconscious and Lupin transforms, endangering three children and inadvertently enabling Wormtail to escape. Snape "outs" him, but with or without Snape, he cannot in good conscience keep his position, nor can Dumbledore allow him to stay. The DADA curse has taken another victim. (On a side note, Umbridge passes her anti-werewolf legislation just at this same time, perhaps another manifestation of the jinx for Lupin, who is sicker and shabbier each time we see him.) I see that I'm going into too much detail and I apologize to anyone who has followed me this far. Fortunately, I haven't given much thought to the DADA curse in years four and five. I'll just say that the real Moody, aknown enemy of Voldemort, is Imperio'd by Voldemort and his servants (including Wormtail) before he even gets to the school, the swiftest manifestation ever of the DADA curse (agent: his own trunk). And Crouch!Moody, the fanatically loyal servant of Voldemort who takes his place, also falls victim to the curse, having his identity and crimes exposed and his soul sucked out just at the end of the year, following the pattern established by Quirrell, Lockhart, and Lupin. He in fact tells us what he has done (using the third person) at the beginning of the year, perhaps setting up his own fall. The agent, of course, is the Triwizard cup that he has turned into a portkey. (I've given even less thought to Umbridge or how she shapes her own fall, which of course takes the shape of unknown punishments by the centaur that rob her of what passes for her mind, with Hermione rather than Snape playing a key role in her fall. I haven't thought about the agent. Perhaps there isn't one. It ought to be her horrible blood-drawing quill, but it doesn't seem to be.) But Snape as DADA teacher fits the pattern beautifully. He takes a post he has supposedly wanted for fifteen years, knowing that it's jinxed. He has in one way or another contributed to the fall of the six previous DADA teachers (he provides real veritaserum to expose Fake!Moody and fake veritaserum to thwart Umbridge, and he continues to report to Dumbledore during her tenure). Now it's his own turn and perhaps he thinks he can defeat the jinx on the position (which he probably doesn't know is a curse placed by Voldemort himself). Instead, almost as soon as he accepts the DADA position, the curse manifests itself in the form of the Unbreakable Vow, directly linked with Voldemort's plan to punish the Malfoys and perhaps to kill Dumbledore. Through pride or folly or some other fault within himself, Snape agrees to take the vow and is trapped by the unanticipated third provision to "do the deed" if Draco fails. Whether Voldemort planned to trap Snape or whether Snape is trapped by Voldemort's will acting indirectly through the DADA curse doesn't matter. Just as Vapormort entered Quirrell's head soon after he reapplied for the DADA, Snape takes the vow before he begins what he must know will be his last year at Hogwarts, and he is bound to his doom by the serpents of fire winding around his hands. It's unclear whether Snape understands that the curse has struck, manifesting itself through the vow, or even that the vow could lead to Dumbledore's death. But he does know that if he is not careful, the vow will lead to his own death or Draco's or to some other terrible consequence desired by the Dark Lord. Through its agent, the Unbreakable Vow, the curse on the DADA position has doomed him either to death or to darkness. Voldemort, who cares no more for his own servants (Quirrell and Fake!Moody) than for his enemies (Lupin and the real Moody) has found another victim for the curse he placed so many years before. If Snape was in fact loyal to Dumbledore, whom he must kill or die himself, accomplishing nothing, he is the most tragic victim of them all. On a side note, I would like to see Snape and Lupin form a common cause against Voldemort, understanding that through the curse, he has used their own weaknesses against them, with terrible consequences for them both. I don't know whether Snape, whose sins are far greater than Lupin's, can face the truth about himself and show genuine remorse. I don't know whether Lupin has the integrity to forgive him or the courage to join with him, knowing that Snape's skill and power are greater than his and that Snape, if anyone, can destroy the Horcruxes and pave the way to Voldemort's fall. But they are both victims of the DADA curse, both victims of Voldemort in more ways than I have detailed here, and that, to me, would be a very satisfying resolution of the Snape and Lupin threads, and maybe the only way to end the curse he placed on the DADA position. Carol, hoping that Sherry, at least, made it all the way through this post and that I did justice to the part about Lupin From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Aug 18 06:48:14 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:48:14 -0000 Subject: What will be the title of book 7? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: Allie: > I know we'll never, EVER guess it, but just for fun: > Harry Potter and the... > ... Downfall of Voldemort Geoff: That reminds me of JRR Tolkien who disliked it when the publishers pressed for the title of the third part of LOTR - "The Return of the King" as he felt it gave away the end. I think he favoured "The War of the Ring". Treating your suggestion seriously, just for fun, I think it gives too much away..... From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 06:53:10 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:53:10 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137963 Saraquel in response to Jujube: What a delight to find that whilst I was sleeping SSSusan and Jen have both written a spirited defence of my right to speculate, and made such wonderful points, that it appears I will not have to write much in my defence on that count. My thanks to you both. Jujube, I want to say that I appreciated your detailed reply, and I have always appreciated your insistence that we tie our speculation to canon, having read a fair number of your posts. I also think that canon is very important, and if you have read my past posts, you will usually find them scattered with actual quotes from the text. However, I would like to say, in a simple and non-critical tone, that for me, your written tone sometimes comes over as quite abrupt and confrontational. I am *not* making a personal criticism here, please do not take it that way, as I have already said, I appreciate your input. I'm just commenting on how your posts appear to me and possibly others ? hence, I speculate, (as I can in no way speak for Jen, SSSusan and others) the spirited replies that you receive to them. I look forward to reading more of your posts, and trust in you to continue to keep us all tied down to canon. :-) (Intended as a friendly smile not a joke.) I would have to agree with you that my first post, was merely the stating of an idea to be followed up, and not written out as a fully fledged, canon backed theory. Hence my call for opinions at the end of it and making the subject line a question. I posted it without a great deal of in-depth thought because I was excited by the idea. My second post was a following up of initial thoughts, and I will admit, it was probably not a wise move to set out so many ideas without a more careful consideration of canon. However, I see the list as being more of a conversational type of list, where ideas are batted around for a while, with possibilities being built up or knocked down, by consecutive interactive posts, rather than a place where fully fledged theories are posted like articles in a professional magazine, to be defended against all comers. Having got a couple of responses to my ideas, I was able to see more clearly where the holes lay and think more deeply about whether the theory had any value. In the response to Jen and mz_annethrope I think that I was clear about the value of the theory: >Being out of character in such a character driven plot would be a >fatal flaw. But, climbing down from the fence, I think that this >theory deserves further consideration, and so I will set out a >humble, but considered riposte. I by no means anticipate it to be >watertight, or even markedly convincing, but I will do my best. In what followed, I think that I presented my arguments in the light of canon, and I'm quite willing to accept that this interpretation is not plausible to everybody (or maybe even anybody :-) ) Here endeth my defence of my posts. Now to answer some of your points, Jujube, that have not already been taken up and answered in the way I would like to answer them, by SSSusan or Jen. All quotes from UK Editions Jujube wrote: >Where is there any canon for any of this? We have no proof of >Voldemort making anything else false. Why would the locket be false? Saraquel: The locket Harry now has is not False or Fake, it is a real horcrux but it is disguised. The notion that it is false or fake, comes from Harry's interpretation of it. HBP end ch28 p569. "Harry neither knew nor cared what the message meant. Only one thing mattered: this was not a Horcrux" I beg to differ with Harry on that count, and this is a pattern that we have seen in the books, that Harry's first impressions are mistaken. On the count that Voldemort would not make the locket appear false. I think the difference between using the word disguised rather than false, is substantive not simply semantic. Voldemort is the master of disguise. As I have previously argued, he disguised his true character and intentions. A couple of quotes from DD to illustrate: In the chapter The **Secret** Riddle, page 259 "He shed his name, as you know, within a few short years of that conversation and created the mask of "Lord Voldemort" behind which he has been hidden for so long." Ch 17 p337 "He showed no sign of outward arrogance or aggression at all. As an unusually talented and very good-looking orphan, he naturally drew attention and sympathy from the staff almost from the moment of his arrival. He seemed polite, quiet and thirsty for knowledge. Nearly all were most favourably impressed by him." "Didn't you tell them, sir, what he'd been like when you met him at the orphanage?" asked Harry. "No I did not." (So bang goes any thought that a staff member found out about the cave through DD. I see no reason to specualte that DD was lying here.) Jujube quoted from my post: >>No-one had to find the cave. > >How else would the locket be found. Here, I was referring (not clearly, I concede) to the real problem that RAB faced in finding out about the cave. (See also Jen's input here) I think this is the major obstacle to the Regulus Black theory. Nowhere in canon, as far as I can see, is there any indication as to how Regulus (or any of the other characters, bar DD) could have found out about the cave. My not being able to see a plausible canon explanation, was the main impetus for me to search for an alternative. Jujube wrote: >Actually, from his speech to the Death Eaters in the graveyard in >GoF, it is clear that not only do some or all of the DEs know about >the idea of a Horcrux, it is logical to infer, from the canon, that >they know there are multiple Horcruxes. Saraquel: Even if the DEs knew about the horcruxes, this still does not explain how Regulus found the cave. Jujube wrote: >Well, first of all, the discovery that the locket is fake is >revealed at that point in the story line for maximum dramatic >impact. Saraquel: Well, we'll have to agree to differ here. I think discovering the locket was a "fake" in Harry's eyes, would have made DDs death even more poignant, and would have been a fitting build up. Jujube wrote: >Second, neither of them look at the locket because of the life and >death nature of their quest: Saraquel: I agree with your reasoning here, BUT, JKR made a distinct point of telling us that Harry didn't look at the locket. HBP p537 (Harry) "leapt to his feet and seized the goblet he had dropped in the basin; he barely registered the golden locket lying curled beneath it." It's quite possible that JKR did not want Harry to realise about the locket at that particular moment because it would have been a diversion from the desperate situation regarding DD. But it might have been, because she did not want Harry to know about the locket until after DDs death. And to add weight to my argument, I do not think that the discovery would have impacted on the ensuing events. DD had to be returned to Hogwarts asap, he was not in a fit state to start wondering about what they had found and answering questions. As soon as they arrived back, the first priority would still have been to fetch help and then to get up to the astronomy tower to deal with the dark mark situation. It is this that makes me wonder about JKRs intentions to deliberately tell us that Harry didn't notice the locket. Regarding my second post with the speculation on the other Horcurxes: Jujube wrote: >What canon is there for any of these contentions? IMO they are >entirely unsupported. Saraquel: I agree here and make no defence. Jujube wrote: >Why would she suddenly now add a clumsy, convoluted story which adds >nothing to the emotional richness of having Harry solve all of these >mysteries with the information he has at hand? Saraquel: Interestingly enough, that was pretty much my initial response to the RAB note, when I first read HBP. To me, explaining how Regulus Black (if that is who we are thinking RAB is, and from your post Jujube, It looks like you think it is) actually found the cave and managed to retrieve the Horcrux was looking, and still looks, pretty difficult to me. (Not that I'm saying that JKR cannot do it to my satisfaction, she's rarely failed me before). Regulus was young and therefore in all probablility inexperienced, plus the fact that his only mention by anyone except Sirius, is by Slughorn ? I would have liked the pair. No indication is given that he was a talented wizard in any way, there are no details or descriptions in canon that have gone before, to indicate he was special. And we have had indications for others spelt out to us ? e.g. Lily. In fact, I would say that canon has done absolutely nothing to prepare us to expect Regulus to be capable of this feat, rather to the contrary. Sirius' description of him is not particularly flattering. "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out." The only bit of canon that I see as relevant is that Regulus was a DE who wanted to escape and that Sirius thought he wasn't important enough to be killed by Voldemort personally. So Sirius would have to be very wrong ? which I admit is possible. Regulus, rather than being a foot soldier on the extremes of what we have canon evidence of being quite a sizeable army (outnumbered 20 ? 1), would presumably have had to be in Voldemort's inner core, because I doubt Voldemort told every DE that he had horcruxes. What qualifications would Regulus have had to promote him to the inner core? Along with the question about how he found the cave, what do we make of the enchantments in place when Harry and DD arrive ? whose are they? DD's assertions that 1)HBP p540 "One alone could not have done it", who is Regulus Black's accomplice (a reasonable case has been made for Kreacher but with regard to point 2, is he a very great wizard?) 2)"None but a very great wizard would have found the boat." HBP p527 3)DD believes that the protections in the cave are Voldemort's, HBP p 527 "Magic always leaves traces,' said Dumbledore "sometimes very distinctive traces. I taught Tom Riddle. I know his style." DD did not look at the potion and say, hmmm not Voldemort's style. So is it a refilling potion or what? I think it is possible that all these could be construed as anvil sized hints that there is something very fishy in the cave, and that we should *not* take the locket at face value. So if my own theory has a few holes, then the Regulus Black theory is not immune to that disease either. Personaly, I think we need an alternative to the Regulus solution, and although not perfect, I think my explanation makes for a simpler one in the end. As I've said before, Harry can quickly check out the Grimauld Place locket, JKR has shown us the route for that. When it comes to dead end (which obviously, I think it will) and there is no snake on the locket face, Harry will be forced to think again, teaching him more about the subtlety and cunning of Voldemort, the magnitutde of which I don't think he has fully appreciated yet. Personally, I loved mz_annethrope's idea here, that if my speculations are correct and it is a transfigured horcrux, it will be Ron who realises it. I now invite you, Jujube to post an explanation of how Regulus Black found the cave, that is non-speculative and "firmly grounded in patterns, details, descriptions, and events of what has gone before." Because, without it, IMO, insisting that Regulus Black found the real horcrux is mere speculation :-) And I am not lying when I say, I would be genuinely glad to have this gigantic obstacle removed from the path. Thanks for forcing me to search out more evidence to support my viewpoint. Amicalement (to quote another poster) Saraquel. Who has taken most of the day to write this, and really should get out more! From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 07:21:23 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:21:23 -0000 Subject: The Weasley's shop items: was Re: Protection from disarming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lazyvix3n" wrote: > I might have to register this as a patent. > > Fred, George, here's my new product and I'm hoping that you might be > prepared to sell it in Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. It's a really useful > item that can be used to protect wizards and witches from disarmament > charms. This may look like an ordinary muggle-household piece of > string, but tie this end to your belt, button, wrist, neck, ankle, > friend or whatever and this end to your wand, Voila! You never need > fear being disarmed again! > > And here we have the professional version, made not out of String but > what Muggles call 'Eclastic', this one returns straight to the hand > after a disarming, useful for professionals such as Headmasters, > teachers, escaped convicts... Chys: How about Magic Yo-Yos that work like wands? Then they always come back to you, and the first Yoyos were weapons anyway. Or maybe some rings/bracelets/anklets like those invisible hats from that time they were experimenting with sales you know, the ones that make your head disappear? So that whenever Harry is actually under his cloak and HOLDING something or REACHING to snag something, you can't see his exposed limb, or don't accidentally get flashed by bodiless wandering feet? *I use this in my fanfiction.* Well, I thought it was good. I would buy it. Those daydream things, those could really mess a person up. Chys From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 07:48:18 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:48:18 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137965 Betsy Hp replied to my post on DD trusting Snape: Valky: I think to the necessary point, we agree. Take into account DD's prodigious skill and intellect, Snape's wit and genius, and the differences and similarities between Tom, Snape and DD, we can probably conclude that DD trusts Snape *because* he knows him well enough. This is too much evidence for mine to be dismissing DD's trust in Snape completely. And it does lend way to my thoughts regarding DD being trusting that Snape would not entirely behave himself, but essentially draws the line *before* the big E - for Evil. To wit, I think in most respects we agreed about this, and only minor differences in the details remain between us. With that in mind, I also really want to restate that I am not sure I understand the pattern of Snapes choices and what they reveal about DD's trust in him exactly, going on a hunch and a feeling, I think it relates to what the choices actually reveal Snape truly thinks of James under all that denial. And I'll quote OOtP to show that I am keeping to canon Dumbledore in this consideration. [Harry says] 'It's OK for Snape to hate my dad, but it's not OK for Sirius to hate Kreacher?' 'Sirius did not hate Kreacher,' said Dumbledore. ' He regarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike...' Here I see Dumbledore drawing out that the distinction is 'in the regard'. That DD takes pains to describe the subtlety here, although he is well aware that Sirius did hate being locked in the house too and that hate was most certainly an issue for Sirius in regards to Kreacher, well it just seems to me that DD is making a point about this distinction for a reason. And that reason comes up because he is having this compared to James and Snape for him by Harry. In DD's mind he must be reminded of the distinction as it also pertains to James and Snape. If you get my meaning and I am not thinking myself into a corner you can't see here. Basically what I am saying is that DD *knows* something about Snapes regard for James, he says it's *not* the same thing as Sirius and Kreacher. BUT hang about, it does darn well look like it is! Snape is *forever* telling Harry, Sirius and James-memory how *unworthy* and of interest and notice they are. He constantly saying to Harry 'get over it boy, you're nothing special, you're less than nothing special actually, you're like your father!.. etc etc' It sounds like the same thing, so why does DD say it's different? It's all in the choices I'm sure. Betsy Hp: Hmmm. I think I disagree here. I think Hermione was dead on. Both Harry and Snape recognize that to fight the dark arts you have to be flexible and innovative. I don't recall anything that suggested that Snape's respect was somehow *unhealthy*. Valky: ???? What about the gruesome pictures on the wall clearly *glorifying* this superior power? And what about JKR's comments that DD deliberately keeps Snape from the Dark Arts to avoid 'bringing out the worst in him' ? Yes I'll stick to my guns on this one, Snapes respect for the power is *not* the same healthy respect that Harry has. On the whole, however, it *is* respect. Oooh look at that, ------> it is *regard*. Besty Hp: I was more under the impression that Harry just hated the idea of being anything like Snape (bringing home the irony of how much he related to the half- blood Prince). Valky: That is a point unto it's own. I do love this irony. And especially that Harry can barely muster up the same feelings towards the Prince as he has for Snape even *after* he knows they are the one same person that killed Dumbledore. It's soooo twisted. The mystery of Snape is and always has been about who he *really* is, and this particular matter of Harry's internal friendship with the HBP is crucial to that. You know, I have just thought of such an interesting point. I wonder if I should bring it up here. Yeah I will. Remember in PS/SS Hermione's now famous speech about Harry where she says.. 'Books! and Cleverness! There are more important things . ...' I find it an amusing parrallel to Snape's 'Book, and Cleverness', and from the start we have been told despite all the HBP will surprise us with, there are more important things. Those important things are of course Friendship and Bravery and Oh Harry be *careful*... as we know. I think that Harry and the Young HBP have a friendship, while Snape and Harry have a very personal vendetta. These things havent really met up within Harry yet, but I do wonder what will happen when they do. Betsy Hp: Are you suggesting that the Death Eaters in-training that Sirius listed off as Snape's companions *discouraged* Snape using or learning the dark arts? Valky: No not at all. I am saying that the older students were the leaders so Snape did mostly what they told him to do, which probably kept him generally out of strife. It was after they all had left Hogwarts and Snape was alone that he ventured out in the night after Lupin and almost got himself killed. This is what I mean by the kind of trouble Snape gets himself in left to his own devices. I am saying that DD kept his little bird Snape in a "moral" prison, locked him up just like Sirius and Harry and to anyone else he knew was in for certain death if he didn't. Snape left to his own devices would simply get himself killed. Besty Hp: Snape didn't attack James and Sirius, he attempted to defend himself (in an uneven fight, no less). I don't think this was an example of Snape behaving badly at all. Valky: As you can see I wasnt actually referring to that kind of trouble, DD I think was more inclined that Snape get himself in this trouble and hopefully *learn* something from it. Leaving him alone otherwise will, as I said, get him killed by his own evil. Besty Hp: I *do* however see a Harry-like tendency to turn to the dark arts when in a desperate situation in young Severus. And perhaps that's why Snape counsels Harry against using dark magic in his final words in HBP. Perhaps he recognizes that they don't lead to a good place. Valky: Yes I think that's a good point in itself. This is a lesson that Snape can teach Harry. By this time I am sure Snape is becoming ever more aware of the depths of hell he has gotten himself into through doing the same. Betsy Hp: Are you talking the first time around, or the second? Because I'm not sure if young Snape *was* a most favored servant the first time around. I think he was seen as highly talented, but not necessarily most favored. Valky: I am talking about the first time, and yes I do think Snape was close enough to LV's favourite at this time, the point being that in any case, he stopped giving Snape orders and sent him out to work under almost his own volition as a spy. This is when Snape found himself doing his worst again and taking the Prophecy back to Voldemort, the one thing he really regrets according to DD. > >>Valky: > Finally in HBP, DD hands him the DADA job, which is in the sense > that I spoke of, setting him free to follow his natural path > without a guiding hand, and before he can even blink he's gotten > himself into trouble. Betsy Hp: What trouble? The Unbreakable Vow? That didn't really have anything to do with the DADA job did it? Or, at least, it didn't have anything to do with Snape having some sort of addiction to the dark arts, IMO. It *may* have been the manifestation of the curse on the job. (In fact, I wonder if that thought ran through Snape's mind when he heard the final part of the Vow, "So this is how it will end," sort of thing.) The question in regards to the Vow is *why* Snape entered into it in the first place. I doubt it was because of an unhealthy eagerness to throw himself into some sort of dark magic. Valky: Ok good arguments all, but this is how I see it to answer them. First I think Snape had secured the DADA job before the Spinners End Chapter, which you apparently agree with by saying that you think it was the curse at work. So hereby we are seeing Snape the DADA teacher in Spinners End, not Snape the potions master. Now I see that you disgree with me already that Snape was attracted to the UV in an unhealthy way, but I do believe that there was definitely an element of him being *tempted* into it by his having been free to his own devices. For a start he *lies* outright to Narcissa that he could be staying on at Hogwarts after being the DADA teacher, unless Voldie *lifted* the curse for him ? It's certainly one way or the other isn't it. And we must remember why the curse is there, it's there because Voldie *wants* that position for himself. Dumbledore is the *only* person keeping Voldie from the Dark Arts job. Anyone else would have been brushed aside years ago and Voldie would be Headmaster by now. This riddle is deeper than it first seems, Snape taking the Unbreakable Vow strictly because the curse is at work on him has no less a problem than Snape doing it because he was tempted into getting involved in a battle of Dark Arts. Betsy Hp: This is kind of an aside from our main discussion, but I'm leery of giving too pure a motive to James decision to interfer with Sirius's prank. I somehow doubt that the James of Snape's Worst Memory would have been motivated by his interest in bringing out the good in Snape. Rather, I think James realized that Sirius's prank would quite possibly end in murder, Sirius in Azkaban, Remus executed, and Dumbledore disgraced. I think James didn't think Snape deserved to *die*, but I think he was probably also motivated by his love for both Sirius and Remus and Hogwarts itself. Of course we won't know for certain until we see the prank play out, but JKR hasn't introduced a saint yet. I doubt she'll start with Saint James. (All my opinion of course.) Valky: Arrrgh I can't believe you're dangling that carrot at me Betsy! You know how *I* am about James. I won't bite today.. I've already raved on enough.. From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Thu Aug 18 09:27:09 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:27:09 -0000 Subject: Responses to several posts (Was: Re: JKR's opinion of Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mompowered" wrote: > Brothergib wrote: > Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? > JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a > turban." > > From the mouth of JKR herself! Does suggest that Snape would not > willingly help Voldemort! > > Cheryl: > > ...Or it could just be a comment about Snape's sense of fashion:) > Brothergib says; The question was about who was the bad guy, not about clothing. If anyone can HONESTLY tell me that their immediate reaction to that statement was that Snape wouldn't wear a turban, then I guess I would have to believe them. It does feel a bit like fitting an answer to agree with ESE Snape!! From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 09:33:58 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:33:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Responses to several posts (Was: Re: JKR's opinion of Snape) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137967 Mmh... Maybe JKR means that instead of a turban... he would put on a "crown"? (aka, HBP?) Despite I still hope Snape is not ESE... Valy. ----- Original Message ----- From: esmith222002 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:27 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Responses to several posts (Was: Re: JKR's opinion of Snape) The question was about who was the bad guy, not about clothing. If anyone can HONESTLY tell me that their immediate reaction to that statement was that Snape wouldn't wear a turban, then I guess I would have to believe them. It does feel a bit like fitting an answer to agree with ESE Snape!! Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Aug 18 09:36:37 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:36:37 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" wrote: That might sound unfair but I believe the Good Guy vs Bad > Guy Snape arguments share some similarities in dynamics to the > shipping arguments - obvious vs subtle - and we all know who was > right on that one. ;) Hickengruendler: There is IMO a big difference between those two storylines. JKR going for the "obvious" romance pairing instead of the "subtle" one, like you called it, is because teenage romances or teenage love aren't subtle. They normally show themselves in a pretty straightforward way. Ron and Hermione had feelings for each other, that were shown in how they react when dealing with the other one and particularly when they had to face their jealousy regarding Viktor and Fleur. I must say, that I do not like what your post implies, namely that Harry/Hermione is the pairing for the "deeper" readers, while Ron/Hermione is the one for the superficial ones. Maybe I misunderstood you, and if that's the case, than I apologize, but it sounds to me as if you are saying, that Harry/Hermione would be the literary better choice, because Ron's and Hermione's feelings for each other were to obvious, with which I do not agree at all. Anyway, back to Snape: His storyline, OTOH, is all about concealing his true loyalties. Here the "subtle" explanation (if you want to call it that) is IMO much likelier to come true, because he is a spy (no matter for which site) an Occlumancy experts and someone who is generally able to conceal his true motivations and aims. He either fooled Dumbledore or Voldemort or both for years, which surely speaks for his abilities as an actor. Therefore the comparison with romantic feelings of teenagers doesn't really fit, since the one has hardly anything to do with the other. Hickengruendler From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 09:40:24 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:40:24 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137969 Merprisen wrote: >My grand theory is that Snape was married and also had a son >(or his wife was expecting which coincided with the birth of Harry >and >Neville) and that Snape saved the information from the prophecy in >an >attempt to protect his own family from death. Voldemort later finds >this information out from using legilimency against Snape and is >furious with Snape that he withheld it. Voldemort then interprets the >prophecy to mean Snape's child will potentially be the one with the >power to destroy the Dark Lord. The punishment for this betrayal was >death for Snape's wife and child. >Now, if you buy into my theory, and then read HBP pg. 571-572. The >basin in the cave is filled with the green poison and is described as >looking like a pensieve. I believe that the liquid that Dumbledore >drinks is very much like a pensieve memory, it is Snape's worst >memory Saraquel: I was intrigued by your theory Merprisen, and would like to add something which might help it along the way. Soon after the list opened on HBP, I posted a theory that what we saw DD talking about was his memories of Snape's repentance, although I speculated the torturers were to do with the repercussions of breaking his life-debt to James. I think your explanation makes a better case for the words spoken, if we are going to go down this road. However, we now have the problem of how and why did Snape's memories come out of DD's mouth when he drank the potion. If Snape told Dumbledore about this, especially by putting his memory into a penseive and showing him, it would be a visual part of DDs memory. Now for the part where I might be able to help you along the way, an explanation for why DD experiences those particular memories at that particular time: (quoting from my previous post - 134306.) Start quote All quotes from UK ED Before he drinks the potion DD says to Harry: Ch 26, p532 "I should have said, he would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island, He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." Now, assuming that Vertaserum is in the mix and Voldemort wants to find out DD's motives for getting the Horcrux, what do we make of what DD is saying. Well, I too thought it could well be DD's memory of Snape recanting. BUT, if this is the memory of Snape's recanting, it really fits incredibly well with the Vertaserum theory. Remember, Voldemort wants to know why anyone would be intent on emptying the basin. Why does DD want to get the Horcrux? He wants to make sure that Harry survives. Why is Harry likely not to survive? Other than the fact that there might be more Horcruxes out there, the main thing in DDs mind is that Voldemort has chosen to believe the prophecy and acted upon it. If he had not chosen to act upon it there would be no problem for Harry. Ch23 p476 "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says in only significant because Voldemort made it so. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him ? and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!" Therefore DD reveals his true reason for trying to get the Horcrux in the basin is tied up with the interpretation of the prophecy and Harry's involvement. It is NOT just to try and destroy Voldemort. Hence, his memory of the first time he learned that Voldemort was going to act on what Snape had told him. Hope that's clear. End quote Hope that helps you. However, I'm not totally convinced myself about your theory, or about my input into it for that matter :-) It seems a bit of a stretch to get Snape's memories out of DD at this point and assumes that the potion he drinks is Voldemort's. However, if Snape was to have stolen the horcrux (I have big-time difficulties believing that Regulus Black did it), then I could see Snape leaving those memories for Voldemort to experience so that he knew why Snape had done it. Although that would be quite a demeaning memory for Snape to remind Voldemort of. But then why sign the note RAB ? is Remember Cedric Diggory a foreshadowing? Remember A--- B--- , which were his wife's/lover's/child's initials. Any theory that puts Snape in the Cave, really has to do a LOT of explaining, and we have OFH!ESE!Snape for sure. I`m *not* espousing that theory myself, I hasten to add :-) Saraquel From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 18 09:49:49 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 05:49:49 -0400 Subject: "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater Message-ID: <007101c5a3da$2cea5580$a5c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137970 Rizza Has anyone noticed how ONLY Death Eaters or dark wizards/witches refer to Lord Voldemort as "The Dark Lord"? I was rereading OotP and that happens a lot, particularly with Snape. For example, during the Occlumency lessons he barks at Harry a few times when Harry says Voldemort's name, and tells him not to. Yes, Snape was a DE, but he's had over a decade to lose that habit if he had really crossed to the side of good. I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already. It's been bugging me and felt I had to post it, not much time to check all the "Snape is/isn't evil" posts. :) CathyD: This isn't really the case. Ginny Weasley, Dobby, Trelawney and others use the phrase as well. I was actually quite surprised how many people, other than DEs, do use it, on my last read through of the whole series. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 18 10:38:17 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:38:17 -0400 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? Message-ID: <00a601c5a3e0$f23b1fd0$a5c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137971 Jen: It doesn't appear the DE's do know the extent of Voldemort's plan involving the Horcruxes, at least not the group at the graveyard. Here's the exact quote in GOF: "What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal--to conquer death. And now, I was tested, aand it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..." (chap. 33, p. 653, US). Pretty vague statement there and Voldemort doesn't say the DE's 'know better than anybody'. CathyD now: But you've missed the other quote, a few pages before yours: "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who *knew* the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" (GoF pg 562 Can Ed) Sounds to me like at least some of the DEs in that group knew what LV was talking about. Or at the very least that he had experimented and that "one or more" of the experiments worked. (pg 566) Dumbledore doesn't believe that the DEs knew about the horcruxes "I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not." But if RAB is Regulus Black at least one of the DEs *did* know. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From h.m.s at mweb.co.za Thu Aug 18 06:12:12 2005 From: h.m.s at mweb.co.za (H.M.S) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:12:12 +0200 Subject: Dumbledore - Parseltongue? Message-ID: <003501c5a3c3$6b4c2630$0200a8c0@Sharon> No: HPFGUIDX 137972 Blank I just noticed something in my 4th reading of HPHBP - The first time Harry goes to Dumbledore for his extra "lessons", Dumbledore takes him to Marvolo's house, where everyone speaks parseltongue to each other. Harry takes a moment to realise, with DD's help, that it isn't English, because he understands what they're saying. However, DD doesn't ask Harry for a translation, presumably because he understands what's being said - does this mean he is also a parseltongue?!! Sharon Durban - South Africa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 10:56:22 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:56:22 -0000 Subject: advanced potion-making In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137973 Klodiana wrote: I don't know if you noticed this but when Harry tries to find out if his dad is the HBP, Lupin tells him to check out how old the book was. The book was 50 years old, so Harry dismisses the possibility that it was James' or any other's who was around at his time. How come Snape is the owner of the book? Is it because he uses secondhand books (do we know that?)? Is it just an error or something else? vmonte: The book originally belonged to Snape's mother or to Tom Riddle. Vivian From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 18 12:22:16 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:22:16 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "merpsiren" wrote: > I have been thinking about motives for Snape to defy Voldemort and > truly join up with Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix. I believe > the key to this is mentioned on pg 549 of HBP. > > "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized > how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it > to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned > --" > > Now, if you read this quote from Dumbledore with Harry's POV it > suggests that Snape regrets how the info of the prophecy affected the > Potters. However, I believe that Dumbledore really is speaking the > truth of how the intrepretation of the prophecy affected Snape. We > know that Snape overheard the prophecy and eventually passed the > information on to Voldemort. However, there is a gap in time of 1.5 > to 2 years between when the prophecy was made, and when the Potters > were murdered. Why motive would Snape have to hold back on this > information? I believe that Snape defied Voldemort > and did not immediatly tell him the information he had overheard > because Snape had a family of his own to protect. ("Broaden your > mind...") My grand theory is that Snape was married and also had a son > (or his wife was expecting which coincided with the birth of Harry and > Neville) and that Snape saved the information from the prophecy in an > attempt to protect his own family from death. Voldemort later finds > this information out from using legilimency against Snape and is > furious with Snape that he withheld it. Voldemort then interprets the > prophecy to mean Snape's child will potentially be the one with the > power to destroy the Dark Lord. The punishment for this betrayal was > death for Snape's wife and child. > > Now, if you buy into my theory, and then read HBP pg. 571-572. The > basin in the cave is filled with the green poison and is described as > looking like a pensieve. I believe that the liquid that Dumbledore > drinks is very much like a pensieve memory, it is Snape's worst > memory. The agonizing utterances from Dumbledore as he consumes this > horrible poison I believe to be the actual memory of Snape at the time > of his own family's murder. Read the passages with Snape as the > speaker pleading with Voldemort to spare "them" for a horrible mistake > that he (Snape) has made (not sharing the prophecy with Voldemort). I > read the beginning (the first things Dumbledore utters after drinking > the poison) as Snape fighting off the legilimency from Voldemort as he > enters Snapes mind and retrieves the info afout the prophecy , "don't > like... want to stop... I don't want to... Let me go... make it stop, > make it stop." Followed by Snape pleading that his family be spared, > "It's all my fault, all my fault... I know I did wrong, oh please make > it stop and I'll never, never again... Don't hurt them... it's my > fault, hurt me instead... Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!" > > Snape has lost everything. I believe this is the reason Dumbledore > implicitly believes and trusts Snape. Snape wants vengence as much as > Harry does. Marianne: Well, this is a new one! And, as another responder mentioned, it could help tie in the as-yet-unseen spousal situation of Hogwarts professors. I have two questions, though. If Snape heard the prophecy and realized the danger that it put his own family, and he was so concerned about their safety that he held this information from Voldemort, then why not bolt to the other side at that point? Why wait an unknown amount of time and then fall victim to Vmort's Legilimency? The other problem I have is again with DD withholding information. If this is indeed the cause of Snape's remorse, why not tell Harry that Snape's own family became targets of Voldemort? DD has heard Harry express something like pity for young Tom Riddle. Do you think he wouldn't recognize that Harry does indeed have the capacity to empathize with others? I would think that, had Harry been told of this, he would get a clearer picture of Snape as someone else who was a victim of Voldemort. And he also might be able to put Snape's treatment of him into a different perspective - Harry lived, Snape's family died. I suppose one might object that DD can't say anything because it's Snape's story. But, I don't see this as being such a big secret at this point in time that Harry, or at least other trusted members of the Order, couldn't be told. No one, other than Dumbledore, knows the full story of why Snape was trusted. This reason screams out to be shared with Snape's Order allies. Marianne From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 12:41:59 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:41:59 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137975 Saraquel wrote: All quotes from UK ED Before he drinks the potion DD says to Harry: Ch 26, p532 "I should have said, he would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island, He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." Now, assuming that Vertaserum is in the mix and Voldemort wants to find out DD's motives for getting the Horcrux, what do we make of what DD is saying. Well, I too thought it could well be DD's memory of Snape recanting. vmonte: Ok, if we go along with Dumbledore's comments then the potion is there to alert Voldemort that someone has found out about the horcruxes. Voldemort wants to know how they found out, and who was responsible for leading them there (well at least this is what I would want to know). So my question is how does Voldemort find out this information? I mean he obviously was not alerted of the cave break in when RAB stole the horcrux, and I think I know the reason why. The locket is still intact. Voldemort doesn't know yet that someone found one of his horcruxes because the locket was not destroyed. When Harry finds it and destroys it, Voldemort will know because he will feel himself becoming more human. That is when Voldemort will then go to the cave to see what the potion reveals. Let's assume this memory does belong to Snape. Why would this memory surface at all? Also, from what I gather there should be another memory in the basin, right? Dumbledore places memories in his penseive in order to sort through them and make larger connections. Apparently, Dumbledore uses his penseive as a strategic device. If the potion in the cave works like a penseive then it should work the same way. It should find the link, if there is any, between the two memories that were placed in it. I think that Dumbledore realized, as soon as his memory surfaced, that Snape would be in grave danger. The potion has somehow linked Snape as being responsible for leaking information about the horcruxes. The first memory (from the RAB break in) implicated Snape, and the second memory (Dumbledore's) gave the reason why Snape was involved. Dumbledore now believes that Snape is in grave danger and begins to ask for him. I think that once Dumbledore saw Snape he realized something else. I think that Snape has known about the horcruxes for a long time. I think that RAB inadvertently (or not) found out about the horcruxes from Snape. Snape has been taking care of Dumbledore all year. He must have seen the ring; it was sitting in plain view in Dumbledore's office. So by now, even if Dumbledore has not told Snape about the horcruxes, Snape must know that Dumbledore now knows. I think that Snape is not on either side. And Snape is perfectly willing to wait until all the horcruxes are destroyed before making his move (Snape is good at waiting things out). Snape must also know that Dumbledore told Harry about the horcruxes. Snape is going to wait until Harry destroys the horcruxes. It's less work for him, right? The thing that Snape doesn't know is that the potion has revealed him as the person who RAB got the original information from. Vivian From feenyjam at msu.edu Thu Aug 18 13:10:59 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:10:59 -0000 Subject: "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137976 Rizza wrote: > > Has anyone noticed how ONLY Death Eaters or dark wizards/witches refer to Lord Voldemort as "The Dark Lord"? I was rereading OotP and that happens a lot, particularly with Snape. For example, during the Occlumency lessons he barks at Harry a few times when Harry says Voldemort's name, and tells him not to. Yes, Snape was a DE, but he's had over a decade to lose that habit if he had really crossed to the side of good. > colebiancardi wrote: > I also was interested when Harry asked Snape that question "Why do > you call Voldemort the Dark Lord, I've only heard Death Eaters call > him that ---" in OotP, p 593 Am Ed Hardcover > > They were rudely interrupted and we never did find out. I can only > guess that Snape continues to call Voldy the Dark Lord, as his character doesn't strike me as a person who would be calling him "the > one who must not be named" and that calling him Voldemort is perhaps > dangerous for him - perhaps there is a connection or something with > the DE's & LV when they utter his name. Or that that this is for > Snape to *stay* in his role as a Death Eater. To start calling him > Voldemort would be an *insult* to Voldy if he found out that his DE > was on such familar terms with him and the other DE's would wonder why Snape is now referring to him by his name, when only DD & Harry do that. > > I think it is the last one - Snape has to stay in his *role* as a > Death Eater - otherwise, he might slip & reveal his true loyalities - which I still believe is with DD and the Order. Greenfirespike says: Speaking of Snape's *role*, I believe that DD (sad but true) underestimated Snape, that DD's unflinching trust of Snape led to Snape's betrayal of DD. On the other hand, this does set up LV for the role of over- estimating how loyal Snape is to him. I don't believe that Snape is simply good or evil, but that in the end he will betray both of his mentors, LV and DD. And that may allow his loyalities to reamin with the order, or more likely he shares a similar goal as the Order. Greenfirespike From Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za Thu Aug 18 09:04:22 2005 From: Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za (Cairie Witter) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:04:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "...the Dark Lord" said the Death Eater Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137977 Rizza: Has anyone noticed how ONLY Death Eaters or dark wizards/witches refer to Lord Voldemort as "The Dark Lord"? I was rereading OotP and that happens a lot, particularly with Snape. I think that the respect that VD's followers have for him is a lot greater than any one else. They certainly have a lot more to fear from him. Cairie From lynnheath at rogers.com Thu Aug 18 12:10:57 2005 From: lynnheath at rogers.com (heathrawlings) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:10:57 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinion of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > Question: Why did you make Quirrell > the bad guy instead of Snape? > > JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a > turban." > I think more than being a comment on something as trivial as Snape's fashion preference or something as huge as his ultimate loyalties, JKR here is saying that that not only does she know Snape, the rest of the characters have known him for 10 years now and would obviously have questions - awkward ones too - if Mr. Reformed Death Eater started wearing a creepy turban and obeying the back of his head. Heathrawlings From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 10:52:45 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:52:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137979 mcjuels wrote: > After reading HBP twice and listening to the tapes, I keep going > back to three Dumbledore quotes from "The Lightning Struck Tower." > > 1 "Well, I certainly did have a drink...and I came back...after a > fashion." Could mean "I drank poison, I died, and I came > back...sort of." > > 2. "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." Could mean "You > can't kill me because I am already dead." > > 3. "No Draco, said Dumbledore quietly, "it is my mercy, and not > yours, that matters now." Could mean "I have sacrificed my life > and you won't have to kill me." > > Here's what I wonder. Could the potion in the cave be turning > Dumbledore into an Inferi? Ceridwen: I've wondered the same, or similar. I wondered if DD was now nearly dead from having drunk the liquid in the pensieve, and that so much time was elasping that he knew he was beyond help. Yet it does seem, particularily the quote of not being able to be killed if one is already dead, that maybe he really was. But that would mean that Harry was the killer. I know he acted on Dumbledore's orders to continue feeding him the liquid no matter what he said after he began to ingest it. Dumbledore pressed the point home that he mustmustmust obey him without question. And he waited to receive confirmation before they began their quest. And at one point, Harry revives Dumbledore while they are still in the cave (iirc, don't have the book nearby). Could this have been Dumbledore's death? If so, then Harry is the killer, not Snape. So many directions to go from here! First, how would this affect Harry if/when he finds out? Second, how would anyone find out that Dumbledore died from that liquid and not from the (false or real) AK? The body is buried and sealed in its tomb. Do they exhume in the WW? Third, how does this settle the UV? If Dumbledore dies by other means than Draco or Snape, will the fact of his death render the UV moot? Or will it exact a toll on Snape for not having beat the other circumstances? Fourth, if this was not a 'Severus... please... (mindreading)kill me' or 'Severus... please... (mindreading) say it isn't so!', then what was the look passed between Dumbledore and Snape? If things were not as they seemed, then a bit of Legilimency doesn't seem out of order. If things were exactly as they seemed (to Harry), then a long look while Dumbledore tried to gather strength to continue the discussion might fit. I do think that sending a message through Legilimency would be the same as taking messages, the transmission of a thought or thought- picture. So that last bit opens up all sorts of possibilities. If no Legilimency took place, did Snape see something on Dumbledore, proof of becoming an Inferius or of having become one, that Harry, in his ignorance, doesn't see? In fact, that no one else on the tower sees, either because they're dumb as posts or because Snape knows where they went and is looking for it? If Legilimency took place, does Snape know that Harry actually killed DD? A lot of people, here and elsewhere, have said that DD wouldn't ask Snape to kill him. In normal circumstances, I would agree. It would damage the soul. But DD said, before HBP, that they are at war. And the war theme continues. In war, killing is expected. Civilized rules are suspended. And heroic sacrifices are the order of the day. Since HP is a fictional series, then examples from other fiction would fit. The soldier stuck out in the open, wounded, dying slowly, in pain, surrounded by the enemy with his buddies helpless, calling for them to kill him rather than try to rescue him as they are cut down one by one, comes to mind. In fact, I think we did see the WW version of that scene on the tower. Though Snape could fit as either a buddy coming regretfully to the only rescue possible, or as an enemy who merely wants to kill a particular prize. Harry, the one 'buddy' we're all sure of, is 'paralyzed', by magic here, but due to his youth, by fear/loathing of the situation in a normal war story. Or a soldier valliantly throwing himself on a landmine or grenade to save the rest of his platoon. And so on. *IF* DD is dying/dead and then reanimated for a short time by the spell, then Harry, by unquestioningly following orders, killed him. *IF* Legilimency was involved, could DD have wanted Snape to spare Harry from this knowledge? Could he be willing to sacrifice an already-wounded (through his own previous choices) Snape for the not- wounded Harry? And is that part of the revulsion Snape feels when he casts the (possible) AK? Ceridwen, who does keep coming back to this since there are hints which may or may not be clues. From lynnheath at rogers.com Thu Aug 18 12:16:15 2005 From: lynnheath at rogers.com (heathrawlings) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:16:15 -0000 Subject: Slughorn "clearly good"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137980 Alla: > He did not want to join and that qualifies him as at least not a bad > guy in my eyes. > > He did not have a strength of character to join OOP and fight? Oh > well, at least he never embraced them in the first place ( as far as > we know) > Well, yes, you're right in that he doesn't have time in service to Lord Voldemort to repent, and thus shouldn't be subject to demands from anyone, even the side of good. After all, the average wizard in the street, and as Harry points out, most of the teachers at Hogwarts, don't fight for the order. It doesn't make them bad or evil or even not clearly good characters - they just aren't the heroes. But I disagree in that - as I stated earlier - I think Slughorn knows he has *something* to repent for (giving Tom that horrible info), and that plays at least a small role in his decision to return. And plus, he's a pompous kind of guy and doesn't appear to have love for any dark wizard, so going somewhere where he'll be well protected, but still seen by his presence there as making a declaration against the evil side, would suit him perfectly, I think. Heathrawlings From ibchawz at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 12:50:23 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:50:23 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff and DE question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137981 J wrote: > I like the idea of Krum helping Harry find a Horcrux Karkarrof left > hidden in Durmstrang. Given the quote from JKR, I also believe we will see Krum in book 7. The idea of a Horcrux hidden in Durmstrang is intriguing, but did LV have any ties to Durmstrang other than an DE headmaster? From what we have seen, LV hides the horcruxes in places where significant events in his life have occurred. Here's another possibility. The DADA position is open again. What if Krum were to come to Hogwarts to fill this vacancy? Who better to teach DADA than someone who has learned the dark arts? This could present some interesting possibilities. ibchawz From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 13:42:01 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:42:01 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spotsgal" wrote: > Merprisen: > > Snape saved the information from the prophecy in an > > attempt to protect his own family from death. Voldemort later finds > > this information out from using legilimency against Snape and is > > furious with Snape that he withheld it. Voldemort then interprets > > the prophecy to mean Snape's child will potentially be the one with > > the power to destroy the Dark Lord. The punishment for this > > betrayal was death for Snape's wife and child. > > Christina: > > That's actually a really well-thought out theory (and it incorporates > a lot of unanswered questions), although I'm not sure how much I buy > into it on the whole. I can't see Voldemort being even *that* > merciful- I doubt he ever would have trusted Snape again, certainly > not enough to accept him back when he returned late at the end of > GoF. But...I love the idea of Snape's family being in danger. I > strongly believe that the reason DD is so sure of Snape's loyalty > DOES have something to do with Snape's family (although I always > theorized it had to do with Irma Pince, who I think is Snape's mom). > Your theory also hits on something that has bothered me for a long, > long time: > > (from JKR's rumor bin) > Rumor: Luna is Snape's daughter > JKR: This is a most tantalising idea, but no, Mr. Lovegood, the > editor of 'the Quibbler', really is Luna's father and Snape does not > have a daughter. > > Doesn't it seem odd that she says "Snape does not have a daughter?" > I would think that it would be much more natural to just say, "Snape > doesn't have any children." > > Another quote that is relevant to your theory: > > One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall > in love. > JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? > That's a very horrible idea. > > She chooses to answer the question by saying, "Who would want Snape > in love with them?" rather than saying something like, "Snape doesn't > have the capacity to love," or just an outright, "No, I don't think > so." She says "That's a very horrible idea," but is she referring to > the idea that Snape could be in love with someone, or the reaction > that person would have (I hope I'm getting my point through there)? > > > Christina Richard here: I think it is one of JKR's strengths that she leaves so many questions open in interviews, specifically so that we can speculate about such things as whether the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape so much was the death of Snape's postulated son. I think it an excellent theory, but do caution that JKR is now well known for throwing some very good curve balls. More to the point of the possibility that the potion in the basin in the cave was comprised of memories, and specifically Snape's, I don't think we've hit on a good theory yet, just a number of plausible ones. For example, I don't think it at all necessary that the potion be comprised of nor contain memories, and think it would be quite odd for a specific person's memories (in this case Snape's) to be contained there. I think it more likely that one of the components would be a potion with an effect much like that of a dementor: you relive your worst memories as if they are real and present. That would certainly tend to stop people from drinking any further, and for a very dark wizard like Voldemort would have real appeal. After all, I doubt that he would believe any really powerful wizard who managed to get that far wouldn't have some horrid memories that could be used against him. So, here are a pair of possibilities. First, Dumbledore's worst memory is his experience of Snape's memory of HIS family's deaths, due to the fact that Dumbledore knows he played a part in those deaths ... and this memory shared through a pensieve is the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape. The interesting twist here is that it can still leave Snape hating BOTH Dumbledore and Voldemort, since he might also see Dumbledore as indirectly responsible for those deaths, for whatever reason, and Voldemort directly responsible. Thus, he could murder Dumbledore with hate, etc., on his face, yet still be determined to do in Voldemort via Harry's power that Voldemort "knows not of." Second, what Dumbledore is experiencing isn't related to Snape at all, but is a memory of Dumbledore's from the time of Grindelwald (?), or before, and is his own worst memory. It may well be part of the personal history that lead Dumbledore to be quite as "good" as he is. (And for those who still believe in one or another sinister theory about Dumbledore, check out JKR's interviews were she talks about how she sees Dumbledore.) As for the idea that what Dumbledore is experiencing is Snape's memory of his family's deaths, there are some serious problems. Would Voldemort really trust ANYONE whose family he had murdered right before that person's eyes? And wouldn't the chapter in OotP entitled "Snape's Worst Memory" have been horribly mistitled if this were Snape's memory of his family's deaths? I think it possible that Voldemort WOULD trust such a person, IF he believed that person as cold-hearted as he is himself. He seems to see empathy and love as weaknesses in others, and not subtle and powerful motivators and sources of energy. Still, it is, I think, a bit of a stretch. The more serious problem is that chapter title. I think we only saw a fragment of that much longer memory, and the worst parts were probably further along in the memory than Harry reached. But, what would make it Snape's worst, apart from seeing this as the point at which he started to lose whatever attachment he had with Lily? Perhaps Lily subsequently "ripped" Snape for trying to use a really dangerous hex on James, and turned icy towards Snape from that point ... after smiling and laughing at James. Since I see it as only a fragment that in its totality is Snape's worst memory, rather than the sum total of it, I don't think we will know WHY it is his worst until some point in Book 7 ... where we will find out why it is, and why Dumbledore trusted Snape due in part to this memory in its extended and contextually correct form. Snape could well hate Harry for being James' son rather than HIS son, and still be bound to protect Harry both due to his blood debt to James and his feelings for Lily. Another cut on this is that Dumbledore experienced Snape's memory of LILY'S murder, which ties in with the last two paragraphs. Voldemort would still NOT know he shouldn't trust Snape at all, and Dumbledore would know (from having shared this memory with Snape) that Voldemort is dead wrong for retaining such trust ... even as he fails to see that he himself should not trust Snape, who also blames Dumbledore in part for Lily's death. Again, I think it is one of JKR's greatest strengths that she can leave so much room for speculation. It is going to be an agonizing two (or more) years until we finally get some of these dangling ends tied off. Let us all hope and pray that nothing happens to JKR before she settles all of these debates. Richard, who thinks Snape can be evil in his own right, yet still be a mortal enemy of Voldemort. From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Thu Aug 18 13:28:53 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:28:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43048D15.1000609@me.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 137983 Marianne wrote: >I suppose one might object that DD can't say anything because it's >Snape's story. But, I don't see this as being such a big secret at >this point in time that Harry, or at least other trusted members of >the Order, couldn't be told. No one, other than Dumbledore, knows >the full story of why Snape was trusted. This reason screams out to >be shared with Snape's Order allies. Exactly, it has to have been shared with the other members of the order. And if it hasn't, how will Harry ever know that Snape is on his side? Telling him won't settle the matter, I believe. /Fabian From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 18 14:13:10 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore - Parseltongue? In-Reply-To: <003501c5a3c3$6b4c2630$0200a8c0@Sharon> Message-ID: <20050818141310.8165.qmail@web53308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137984 "H.M.S" wrote: Blank I just noticed something in my 4th reading of HPHBP - The first time Harry goes to Dumbledore for his extra "lessons", Dumbledore takes him to Marvolo's house, where everyone speaks parseltongue to each other. Harry takes a moment to realise, with DD's help, that it isn't English, because he understands what they're saying. However, DD doesn't ask Harry for a translation, presumably because he understands what's being said - does this mean he is also a parseltongue?!! Sharon Durban - South Africa Luckdragon: DD is a man of many talents. While I do not know of any canon showing he can speak parseltongue, I would think he could at least understand it. The man can speak to the merpeople though so nothing would surprise me with this gentleman. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 18 14:13:36 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:13:36 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Saraquel in response to Jujube: > However, I would like to say, in a simple and non-critical tone, > that for me, your written tone sometimes comes over as quite abrupt > and confrontational. I am *not* making a personal criticism here, > please do not take it that way, as I have already said, I appreciate > your input. I'm just commenting on how your posts appear to me and > possibly others hence, I speculate, (as I can in no way speak for > Jen, SSSusan and others) the spirited replies that you receive to > them. I look forward to reading more of your posts, and trust in you > to continue to keep us all tied down to canon. :-) (Intended as a > friendly smile not a joke.) While I thank you for the caveat, I must admit that I do see this as a personal criticism in that you have read a series of negative meanings into my posts which are simply not present. As I understand it, this is a discussion list and all ideas presented on this list are open for discussion (provided they stay within the list guidelines, of course). Indeed, there has been, as you term it, spirited responses to the ideas I put forth myself, and I have not read anything into those responses other than the authors' own enthusiasm for the subject and love of good conversation. I may not have peppered my messages here with emoticons, but nor have I "SHOUTED", or indicated extreme emotion by the excessive use of exclamation points in my responses. I have taken great pains to make sure that my comments relate only to the plot points or details under discussion. What I have done is ask questions in a neutral, matter- of-fact, manner. As I understand it, asking questions is allowed on this list. On a personal note, I do, of course, regret that you felt any sort of personal (of you) v. impersonal (of ideas) criticism in any of my posts; none was of course intended and I apologize for any discomfort you felt. At the same time, I must also add that I feel you perhaps have done me a disservice by coloring my comments with that lens. > Here, I was referring (not clearly, I concede) to the real problem > that RAB faced in finding out about the cave. (See also Jen's input > here) I think this is the major obstacle to the Regulus Black > theory. Nowhere in canon, as far as I can see, is there any > indication as to how Regulus (or any of the other characters, bar > DD) could have found out about the cave. My not being able to see a > plausible canon explanation, was the main impetus for me to search > for an alternative. I haven't really thought about it (being only a month since the book came out and being engaged, here and there, in trying to reread the other books for clues, since we have 2 years to fill before we get our answers ;-) ), but I did give it some thought this morning, and here's a thought off the top of my head: > Saraquel: > Interestingly enough, that was pretty much my initial response to > the RAB note, when I first read HBP. To me, explaining how Regulus > Black (if that is who we are thinking RAB is, and from your post > Jujube, It looks like you think it is) I do. In addition to the information I posted yesterday, I think it's important to look at this: Regulus' uncle Alphard is named after a star in the water snake constellation. We know that the Blacks are very closely tied to Dark magic. But Regulus is named after a star in the lion constellation. From the setup of the books, we know that the Slytherins and the Gryffindors are, if not enemies, engaged in very opposite behaviors. I can't help but think that Regulus' name is a clue to what he did. > Regulus was young and therefore in all probablility inexperienced, > plus the fact that his only mention by anyone except Sirius, is by > Slughorn I would have liked the pair. No indication is given that > he was a talented wizard in any way, there are no details or > descriptions in canon that have gone before, to indicate he was > special. And we have had indications for others spelt out to us > e.g. Lily. > > In fact, I would say that canon has done absolutely nothing to > prepare us to expect Regulus to be capable of this feat, rather to > the contrary. Sirius' description of him is not particularly > flattering. > > "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more > likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by > voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in > so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried > to back out." > > The only bit of canon that I see as relevant is that Regulus was a > DE who wanted to escape and that Sirius thought he wasn't important > enough to be killed by Voldemort personally. So Sirius would have > to be very wrong which I admit is possible. Good. :-) Because, as much affection many of us have for him, Sirius is not a particularly reliable narrator (I know he's not literally the narrator; I'm using the term more broadly here). He's bitter and resentful and possibly the least objective character in OOtP. He hates the house, he hates being cooped up, and he hates that his family is tied to so many Dark wizards. > Regulus, rather than > being a foot soldier on the extremes of what we have canon evidence > of being quite a sizeable army (outnumbered 20 1), would > presumably have had to be in Voldemort's inner core, because I doubt > Voldemort told every DE that he had horcruxes. What qualifications > would Regulus have had to promote him to the inner core? Ah. But that's not the only scenario. Regulus didn't need to be promoted to the inner core to accomplish this task. He only needed to have access to the knowledge of the inner core. > Along with the question about how he found the cave, what do we make > of the enchantments in place when Harry and DD arrive whose are > they? DD's assertions that > 1)HBP p540 "One alone could not have done it", who is Regulus > Black's accomplice (a reasonable case has been made for Kreacher > but with regard to point 2, is he a very great wizard?) No, but he could have had the prior training and education; in effect, assistance of a great wizard--just as Harry does with Dumbledore. Remember we don't know for sure that Regulus is really a poor wizard; we just have his brother's comments, and his brother detested all of the Dark magic his family did and also detested Voldemort. Also, Sirius never knew what his brother might have done, in secret, to try to bring Voldemort down. In addition to Voldemort and Dumbledore, there is a third great wizard we know in the series: Snape. We know he is an absolute genius at Potions. We also know that as a teenager he was already inventing spells. Furthermore, we know from the spells he invented and from his comments when he starts teaching his DADA classes in HBP that he does not exactly have an aversion to Dark magic. We know that he has the confidence (in both senses of the word) of Voldemort and Dumbledore--to what extent we do not know, but we know he's privvy to info that the rest of the DEs and the teachers at Hogwarts are not. Plus, JKR has so deftly balanced his character by the end of HBP, that we have no idea where he is good, evil, or simply out for himself. It's not a stretch to imagine that Good Snape might have worked with a DE, Regulus (here using the DE as a means to bring down Voldemort), from info he had from Voldemort, to undermine this Horcrux, because, IMO, it's not a stretch to imagine he might have had a hand in the potion in the basin. It's not a stretch to imagine that a Snape interested in what he could gain for himself would work with a DE (here using the DE to his own aims), to do the same thing. I'm not sure how it would play out for Evil Snape--but I've also not taken that view of him so I haven't really put much effort into reading the books that way. > 2)"None but a very great wizard would have found the boat." HBP p527 > 3)DD believes that the protections in the cave are Voldemort's, HBP > p 527 "Magic always leaves traces,' said Dumbledore > "sometimes very distinctive traces. I taught Tom Riddle. I > know his style." DD did not look at the potion and say, hmmm not > Voldemort's style. So is it a refilling potion or what? > > I think it is possible that all these could be construed as anvil > sized hints that there is something very fishy in the cave, and that > we should *not* take the locket at face value. But not every detail, or perceived omission of detail, in the book is significant. The trick to figuring out what will happen in book 7 is to figure out just which details are significant. To seize on the ones which are not, on the pretext that every thing must mean something, is, IMO, as detrimental as deciding that everything in the book is literally as it seems and there is no puzzle to be put together. The trick to figuring out what will happen, IMO, calls for the ability to discern the good clues from the red herrings from the details which are simply meant to be straightforward details and which have no hidden meaning. I don't think it is an accident that JKR has Dumbledore tell Harry "Sometimes a mouth organ is just a mouth organ." IMO one of the great, and detrimental, myths about JKR is that she's always dissembling. She's very clever and she's knows how to misdirect; to do a writer's sleight of hand. But she's not sneaky. She always plays fair. And that's IMO, a crucial distinction to draw, especially when you are engaged in the process of trying to figure out--or, indeed, correctly pose--the various questions. > I now invite you, Jujube to post an explanation of how Regulus Black > found the cave, that is non-speculative and "firmly grounded in > patterns, details, descriptions, and events of what has gone > before." Because, without it, IMO, insisting that Regulus Black > found the real horcrux is mere speculation :-) And I am not lying > when I say, I would be genuinely glad to have this gigantic obstacle > removed from the path. I am not aware of the requirement that states that in order to engage in conversation about a theory offered to the list, one must have a fully-fledged theory in the wings waiting to replace it. Indeed, although my theories about the last unidentified Horcrux and the person who does magic late in life were questioned, I never required that the person questioning me be able to float a full-fledged theory as an entrance fee. I'm happy to have my theories questioned--it's the only way for me to think about what could be wrong and therefore allows me the opportunity to revise them accordingly. jujube From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 14:34:58 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:34:58 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137986 "demetra1225" wrote: > Harry certainly believes that he is > an eyewitness to Snape killing > Dumbledore. But is that *proof*? If it is not proof then exactly what would be a proof of guilt? We see Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore and then 600 pages later we actually see him murder the man plain as day. What more do want, what more could an author do to convince you? The evidence that Voldemort killed Lilly and James is very strong but much much less strong than the evidence that Snape killed Voldemort, and if that's not good enough then we should release all the prisoners in jail for lack of evidence, every single one. All I can say is that if I'm even charged with murder I hope you're on my jury. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 14:50:23 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:50:23 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: <403e946f0508171213234bf244@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137987 Shylah wrote: > the logical next step for evil > Snape is to have a few words > with LV, and book 7 open with LV > squirreling all his Horcruxes back, > doing a 'head' count and plotting > to recover what was lost by making more. There is no evidence that Snape knows anything about Horcruxes and with the exception of the diary no evidence that Voldemort knows that any more are missing or in danger. He still thinks Harry and Dumbledore know nothing about them. Eggplant From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Aug 18 14:57:38 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:57:38 -0000 Subject: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mari" wrote: > Maybe I'm stretching things here, but I keep having the niggling > feeling, when I put all this together, that an appearance of failure > is a part of Dumbledore's plans. Now bear with me because I am going on a winding road that ends up in this general area. What is interesting in HBP is the appearance of The Tower Tarot card. In another group, I wrote about the relationship between the Magus card (which I am equating with Voldemort and which I have discussed here as the basis of my theory that the missing Horcrux could the Ravenclaw's wand) and The Hanged Man card. The Hanged Man, as you will remember, is the name of the pub in Little Hangleton. I was doing some other reading and came across the note that the Hanged Man is the Tarot card which is the opposite of The Magus. I read these various descriptions: ------------------- 1 - The Magician To me, this card signifies someone who can take what they are given and mold it to suit them. Being able to control the forces around you. Reversed: being clumsy; unable to get anything to go right. 12 - The Hanged Man A spiritual quest; this person is seeking knowledge and spiritual gain. In the Norse tarot, this card is represented by Odin hanging from the tree of Yggdrasil and grasping the runes, which signify knowledge and wisdom. Reversed: Not seeing the spiritual side of a situation; maybe not realising how important something is. This is a difficult card to give a general interpretation to; it is different in every reading. http://handel.pacific.net.sg/%7Emun_hon/tarot/major.htm#fool ------------------------------------ and --------------------------------------- The Magus This card signifies the divine motive in man, reflecting God, the will in the liberation of its union with that which is above. It is also the unity of individual being on all planes, and in a very high sense it is thought, in the fixation thereof. With further reference to the "sign of life" and its connection with the number 8, it may be remembered that Christian Gnosticism speaks of rebirth in Christ as a change "unto the Ogdoad." The mystic number is termed Jerusalem above, the Land flowing with Milk and Honey, the Holy Spirit and the Land of the Lord. According to Martinism, 8 is the number of Christ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magician_%28Tarot_card%29 The Hanged Man It is a card of profound but veiled significance. Its symbolism points to divinity, linking it to the death of Christ in Christianity and the stories of Osiris (Egyptian Mythology) and Mithras (Roman Mythology). In all of these stories, the destruction of self brings life to humanity; on the card, these are symbolized respectively by the hanged man and the living tree from which he swings. Hence, the Hanged Man represents the sanctity of all existence and its need for salvation by self-sacrifice. Its relationship to the other cards usually involves personal loss for a greater gain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hanged_Man ------------------------------------- My first thought that The Magus is Voldemort (which I had already identified) and that The Hanged Man, his opposite, must be Harry. I ran this by my literary-based HP book group and the suggestion, from the person extremely well-versed in Tarot symbolism, came immediately back that The Hanged Man might more accurately refer to...Snape. First I was reminded that we have the literal picture in the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene where he is literally hanging upside down in that scene. So I looked at the descriptions again, and this caught my eye: ----------------------------- Hence, the Hanged Man represents the sanctity of all existence and its need for salvation by self-sacrifice. Its relationship to the other cards usually involves personal loss for a greater gain. ------------------------------ This fits in with my own theory that this time Snape will choose what is right over what is easy and this time give up his own life (no time to put out my whole Snape theory; suffice it to say that I think the reason he seems so ambivalent in the book is that he himself is ambivalent and has not yet decided which side he will ultimately choose).Then I was provided with this information by someone in another subset of that group: ---------------------------------- Basic Tarot Story As the Fool leaves the throne of the Goat God, he comes upon a Tower, fantastic, magnificent, and familiar. In fact, The Fool, himself, helped build this Tower back when the most important thing to him was making his mark on the world and proving himself better than other men. Inside the Tower, at the top, arrogant men still live, convinced of their rightness. Seeing the Tower again, the Fool feels as if lightning has just flashed across his mind; he thought he'd left that old self behind when he started on this spiritual journey. But he realizes now that he hasn't. He's been seeing himself, like the Tower, like the men inside, as alone and singular and superior, when in fact, he is no such thing. So captured is he by the shock of this insight, that he opens his mouth and releases a SHOUT! And to his astonishment and terror, as if the shout has taken form, a bolt of actual lightning slashes down from the heavens, striking the Tower and sending its residents leaping out into the waters below. In a moment, it is over. The Tower is rubble, only rocks remaining. Stunned and shaken to the core, the Fool experiences grief, profound fear and disbelief. But also, a strange clarity of vision, as if his inner eye has finally opened. He tore down his resistance to change and sacrifice (Hanged man), then broke free of his fear and preconceptions of death (Death); he dissolved his belief that opposites cannot be merged (Temperance) and shattered the chains of ambition and desire (The Devil). But here and now, he has done what was hardest: destroyed the lies he held about himself. What's left is the bare, absolute truth. On this he can rebuild his soul. Basic Tarot Meaning With Mars as its ruling planet, the Tower is a card about war, a war between the structures of lies and the lightning flash of truth. The Tower, as Wang points out, stands for "false concepts and institutions that we take for real." When the Querent gets this card, they can expect to be shaken up, to be blinded by a shocking revelation. It sometimes takes that to see a truth that one refuses to see. Or to bring down beliefs that are so well constructed. What's most important to remember is that the tearing down of this structure, however painful, makes room for something new to be built. Thirteen's Observations No card scares a Tarot reader like the Tower - or the person they're reading for if that person knows anything about Tarot cards. It is however one of the clearest cards when it comes to meaning. False structures, false institutions, false beliefs are going to come tumbling down, suddenly, violently and all at once. What's important to remember as a tarot reader is that the one you're reading for likely does not know that something is false. Not yet. To the contrary, they probably believe that their lover is being faithful, that their religious beliefs are true and right, that there are no problems in their family structure, that everything is fine at work...oh, and that they're fine. Just fine, really. Alas, they're about to get a very rude awakening. Shaken up, torn down, blown asunder. And all a reader can really do to soften the blow is assure the Querent that it is for the best. Nothing built on a lie, on falsehoods, can remain standing for long. Better to tear it all down and rebuild on the truth. It is not going to be pleasant or painless or easy, but it will be for the best. Courtesy of http://www.leakylounge.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi? act=ST;f=65;t=10391;st=0 ----------------------------------- This was pretty exciting reading to me because, as I wrote to the group back then, while it's easy to read the Lightning Struck Tower as a terrible blow to the Order and to Hogwarts, I instead thought that it could also be read as a symbol of the beginning of the reversal of Voldemort's power--the reversal of the Magus, leading to his inablilty to control the things around him anymore. jujube From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 15:00:23 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:00:23 -0000 Subject: What will be the title of book 7?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137989 I think for the title of the last book JKR will abandon the "And The" convention and call the finale of the Potter series, "Harry Potter The Chosen One". I also predict that the last chapter of the last book will be entitled "The Man Who Died". Eggplant From ryokas at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 15:49:07 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:49:07 -0000 Subject: Worst RAB idea ever Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137990 A newly arrived thought claims that R.A.B. is Lord Voldemort. The fake Horcrux is not a fake at all, save for the slip of paper inside it that's a subtle hoax. Someone smarter than me could whip up an acronym - generously assuming that someone smarter than me actually likes this theory. Feedback is hoped for. ==Premise== Bear with me here. I propose a possible way to help keep a Horcrux safe even if it's captured: The enemy would have to be kept from finding out that it's a Horcrux. It's remotely feasible that Voldemort did this with the locket. Of course something hidden in the bottom of a basin full of poison that's in the middle of an Inferi-infested lake that's in a remote cave that requires a blood sacrifice to enter is unlikely to be an ordinary Muggle mouth organ, so it takes a bit of doing. (Personally, if I was the Dark Lord I'd construct more full-fledged Horcrux dens than I had Horcruxes, but that's beside the point) ==Evaluation== I'll go through several associated matters and give my opinion on how they affect the plausibility of the theory. A Horcrux is a powerful artefact and that could be picked up by the wizarding equivalent of "Detect Magic". But there likely are ways of shielding magic from detection, and should Voldemort actually try this he'd use them to the fullest. AGAINST - It's not certain if enchanted items give off magic, but it seems likely, and if they do there has to be a way of concealing it completely for this to work. If a Horcrux tried anything sneaky or acted independently it'd give itself away, but as DD says their purpose is to keep a part of the self *hidden* and safe - the diary was highly exceptional in that it was a weapon as well and the rest should be inert. NEUTRAL - The remaining Horcruxes can't be expected to be detected this way. As always there's a lot that we don't know. If RAB took the Horcrux, why'd he place another in its place? Voldemort can't feel the status of his Horcruxes, or can he? Could he have a picture on his bedroom wall which displays their status? He certainly wouldn't trust Death Eaters enough to reveal the locations. Why didn't RAB engrave a great big warning in the stone saying 'TAKEN CARE OF'? Of course if LV did find out that a Horcrux had been destroyed, he should remove all traces and hope that some other enemy of his still falls for it. NEUTRAL - Insufficient data for meaningful predictions. The process of destroying a Horcrux is a complete ?. We do know that the Gaunts' ring wounded even Dumbledore terribly and he would've died unassisted. The process could very well be too demanding to allow using it on things to find out if they are Horcruxes. FOR - Raises the treshold for attempting to sort out fakes by destroying them. It's a cost-effective fail-safe and most likely requires relatively little work. Even if the Horcrux couldn't stand an extended period of study, it would not necessarily be subjected to one. At the least, this method buy him time. FOR - What would LV lose by this? ==Conclusion== In HBP we see the events unfold in a way that's consistent with the theory - in fact Voldemort's attempt would have succeeded magnificently. The locket may be real or fake, but if the greatly weakened Dumbledore can even tell he never gets a suitable chance to reveal this. It passes to Harry, who believes the slip of paper hook, line and sinker. Instead of destroying an item closely associated with a master of trickery and cunning, Harry goes as far as carrying it on him. Only a handful of people know of its existence in the first place, and outsiders would hardly check the Boy Who Lived for items vital to Voldemort. It's my conclusion that the possibility is feasible and suitable to be used by sufficiently crazy speculators. - Kizor From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 16:04:46 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050818160446.45512.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137991 ehteshamulh wrote: Who do you think will be the next Head Boy and Head Girl? This is, of course, assuming that Hogwarts remains open during Year 7. Juli: My bet goes to Harry, he deserves it. Dumbledore for sure would have given it to him, McGonagall probably will too, but the question is wether Harry will return to Hogwarts on his 7th year. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 16:05:34 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:05:34 -0000 Subject: Time Travel: Analyzing Hermione's missed Charms class Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137992 In past time travel discussions I haven't paid much attention to the "I forgot to go to Charms" incident. I decided to go back and analyze this to see if it could give me some more clues into the way time travel works in HP. I discovered that it is much more problematic than I had thought! But first: Why is it that when H&Hr TT from the hospital room, they end up in the entrance hall?? I would think they would be in the same place. Hmmm. Anyway, here's the scene. I'm making up times and classes because I don't remember the details. Hermione has Potions and Arithmancy at 10am and Charms at 11am. Normally she goes to Potions, heads to Charms, but before it starts she time turns back to 10am, goes to Arithmancy, then rushes to Charms and hopes no one notices. But one day, she forgets to go to Charms after Arithmancy. She doesn't realize it until several hours later, after lunch, when Harry and Ron find her sleeping on a book. She doesn't turn back to fix her mistake, she says "I forgot to go to Charms!" and that's that. So, why couldn't she time turn back to 11am and go to Charms? I see three possibilities: 1) Multiple-timeline theory: Going back would change time; it would undo her missing the class and Harry and Ron finding her at the table. 2) Single-timeline theory: Time only happens once, so it can't be changed. If she were going to go back in time to attend the class, she already would have done so, so Harry and Ron wouldn't be telling her that she missed it. 3) The conditions for Hermione being allowed to use the TT stipulate that she can ONLY use it to go back to attend classes where she has two at the same time. So if she has two classes at 10am and two classes at 2pm, she can only use the time turner to attend the second class. She's not allowed to use it to skip other classes and then go back, such as to give herself more time to study or sleep. Whether or not time can be changed doesn't factor in to this theory. Now, the third option, which is very plausible, doesn't shed any additional light on time travel, but at least it doesn't create any additional complications. However, if we still consider the situation in terms of the MTLT and the STLT just to see where they take us, we uncover major problems. MTLT: You're not allowed to change time! It's an important wizarding law! Terrible things can happen! Okay. But if the MTLT is correct, then EVERY TIME she goes back to attend a class she misses the first time around, she is changing time! It may not be signficant, but it could be. Who knows what events might eventually take place because a fellow student in Arithmancy notices that she isn't there, then maybe desides to go check on her, runs into someone, something happens, etc. But then this all goes away when she TT's and shows up to the class. And since this happens all the time, chances are high that somewhere along the way something significant will be undone. STLT: Put aside the contradiction between this theory and the admonitions about changing time. When I started thinking about the STLT with regards to Hermione missing Charms, I realized that the STLT truly does eliminate free will, despite the arguments that all events in the future are freely chosen. Consider Hermione's situation. Assume that her only restriction in using the time turner is that she can only use it to attend classes she would otherwise miss. So she is allowed to use the time turner to go back to Charms if she chose to. But according to the STLT, the fact that she didn't go to Charms means that she isn't going to use the TT, which means that she CAN'T use the TT. This means that the future is fixed, AND it limits the decisions we can make in the present!! This blows the whole idea of the time turner out of the water. It means that you can only use it in two cases: 1) when you are faced with obvious evidence that your future self has used it, in which case you MUST use it, and 2) You are NOT faced with any obvious evidence that you did NOT use it. But if you ARE faced with such evidence - for example, Hermione clearly knows that her future self has not gone back to attend Charms - then you CAN'T use the time turner! So she is not free to choose her actions - the effects of her future actions, even five seconds in the future, have already been made clear to her, so she cannot act differently. Now, what would prevent her from acting differently, we don't know, but I guess there would be some magical laws that would prevent the TT from working. The idea that actions in the present are restricted by the evidence about our actions in the future is, I think, implausible in the context of the book. It requires effective use of the TT to only come about from ambiguity. H&Hr don't know what is happening with Sirius and didn't see Buckbeak get killed, so they can say "well since we don't know for sure that we didn't time travel to save Buckbeak and Sirius, we are free to try it; if we are able to do so, it means that's what has happened, if we can't, then that isn't what had happened." But there is NOTHING AT ALL in canon to suggest conditions in which the time turner doesn't work or magical laws knock you backwards when you try to interfere with the one-and-only course of events. Conclusion: What we know about time-travel in HP means that JKR messed up something along the way. Either "changing the past" is not as absolute as it sounds, but rather should be "purposely altering the course of events", or "free will" in the present has the potential to be severely hampered by decisions we will make in the future. - davenclaw From adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 16:46:56 2005 From: adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com (adamjmarcantel) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:46:56 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and murder Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137993 Here's to hoping the list elves forgive me, as it is a reply to several posts/threads and I thought this would save space rather than responding to each one with the same basic premise. Several posters have been making the claim that Snape is evil and the proof is *drumroll* he murdered DD!! They go on to say, or at least imply, that DD would not ask to be murdered and, in fact, is against murder, and that committing murder makes someone absolutely evil. I feel compelled to post my thoughts on this: 1. DD would not ask to be murdered. How to we know that? I have no evidence one way or another. 2. DD is against murder. Really? What has been asking/preparing Harry for all these years? The final tea party with Riddle so that Harry can convince him to be a good little boy and then they ride off into the sunset together? No. DD has been preparing Harry for the final battle with Voldy in order for Harry to kill or attempt to kill him. DD has even been giving direct assistance in destroying Marvolo's ring, searching for Horcruxes, etc. so that it will be easier for Harry to presumably "finish off" ol' V-Mort. This tells me that DD recognizes that murder IS acceptable in some circumstances and it would, therefore, not be a stretch to think DD would consider the circumstance of "that" night do be one in which murder would be acceptable. 3. Murder make someone evil, therefore Snape is evil. I will be looking for the same folks to post that Harry is ESE! if it turns out that he murders Voldy. The standards cannot change just because the murderer is someone we like and the victim is someone we don't like. Murder is murder and a murderer is a murderer whether is be Harry or Snape. It may turn out that Harry will not murder Voldy, but there is that chance, so we should be ready to assign the ESE tag to Harry if it does transpire. These are just my thoughts, and, again, it's in reply to several different threads, not one in particular. I could be wrong and it would be interesting to hear others' interpretations/spins. Adam, who cannot see evil in what Snape did, try as he might From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 18 16:52:26 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:52:26 -0400 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil Message-ID: <002a01c5a415$372ea740$08c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 137994 "demetra1225" wrote: > Harry certainly believes that he is > an eyewitness to Snape killing > Dumbledore. But is that *proof*? Eggplant: >>If it is not proof then exactly what would be a proof of guilt? We see Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore and then 600 pages later we actually see him murder the man plain as day. What more do want, what more could an author do to convince you? The evidence that Voldemort killed Lilly and James is very strong but much much less strong than the evidence that Snape killed Voldemort, and if that's not good enough then we should release all the prisoners in jail for lack of evidence, every single one. CathyD: The same proof that had Sirius Black in Akaban for 12 years after the *proof* of "more than fifty eye-witnesses." The same *proof* that had Peter Pettigrew listed as dead. The same *proof* that Scabbers was really just a rat. The same *proof* that Barty Crouch, Jr, was dead. Etc., etc. The author has clearly already told us that we can't always believe what we see. The only *proof* that Snape killed Dumbledore is the eye-witness account of three Death Eaters, one wanna-be Death Eater, one Werewolf and Harry Potter (whose opinion of Snape is not coloured at all by anything that happened in the previous six years). I'd say the evidence that LV killed James and Lily is just a little stronger as the Murderer himself has said he did it "I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ... but your mother needn't have died ... she was trying to protect you" and "his mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not forseen ..." No eye-witness accounts there. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 16:56:03 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:56:03 -0000 Subject: Worst RAB idea ever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miikka R." wrote: > A newly arrived thought claims that R.A.B. is Lord Voldemort. The fake > Horcrux is not a fake at all, save for the slip of paper inside it > that's a subtle hoax. > > Someone smarter than me could whip up an acronym - generously assuming > that someone smarter than me actually likes this theory. Feedback is > hoped for. Richard here: Every good (or bad) theory needs a good (or bad) acronym, so how about this for your theory: RABID DOG. R. A. B. Is Deep, Dark, Obfuscatory Gem. This is, I think, very appropriate, as if it really is a horcrux, and the person who finds it is taken in by the ruse, the World is left with a surviving horcrux, and thus a surviving little lord voldemort (little thanks to the diminished soul, spread about and partially destroyed). Think of it as, "This dog has a potentially deadly bite." From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 18 17:02:18 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:02:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What will be the title of book 7? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4304BF1A.3050305@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 137996 allies426 wrote: > I know we'll never, EVER guess it, but just for fun: > > Harry Potter and the... > Trivial Subplot (yes, another misleading title!) Divided Soul (mmmmwwwuuuuhahahahhahah!) Heir of Gryffindor (maybe not) Final Solution (well duh!) Death of Voldemort (lets hope) Triumph of Compassion (ditto) Locked Room (we all know that going to play...) Two-Way Mirror (ditto) Beyond the Veil (let us see the next great adventure, JKR) I could go on............... digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 17/08/2005 From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 18 17:00:35 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:00:35 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Number of Horcrux Message-ID: <4304BEB3.000016.01532@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 137997 Please forgive me if this has already been addressed - I'm WAY behind in my reading. Are we dealing with 7 or 8 pieces of LV's soul? Did he make 7 horcrux with pieces of his soul and keep a bit in his body? If so, then there are 8 pieces of his soul. Or, is there 6 horcrux and 1 piece still in LV's body? If so, then that would make the magic number 7. Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 18 17:08:45 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:08:45 -0000 Subject: Number of Horcrux In-Reply-To: <4304BEB3.000016.01532@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 137998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Please forgive me if this has already been addressed - I'm WAY behind in my > reading. > > Are we dealing with 7 or 8 pieces of LV's soul? Did he make 7 horcrux with > pieces of his soul and keep a bit in his body? If so, then there are 8 > pieces of his soul. Or, is there 6 horcrux and 1 piece still in LV's body? > If so, then that would make the magic number 7. > > Donna donna - it is 6 pieces of his soul that are horcruxes and the 7th bit is still in Voldy's body. That is in order to destroy LV completely, Harry must find the remaining horcruxes and destroy all of them before facing LV. colebiancardi From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Aug 18 17:20:17 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:20:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and murder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007101c5a419$1becd250$973a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 137999 Adam said: Several posters have been making the claim that Snape is evil and the proof is *drumroll* he murdered DD!! They go on to say, or at least imply, that DD would not ask to be murdered and, in fact, is against murder, and that committing murder makes someone absolutely evil. I feel compelled to post my thoughts on this: Sherry now: As I'm one of the posters who believe that Dumbledore would absolutely not ask someone to commit murder, I'll take you up on this. Perhaps, someone else who responds can quote canon, which is difficult when you've only got audio versions to work with. First of all, aren't we told by Dumbledore in HBP, that the act of murder splits the soul? I got the impression Dumbledore considered it a very evil thing indeed. Remember, that's the first step to creating a horcrux, not a horcrux itself yet. Adam 1. DD would not ask to be murdered. How to we know that? I have no evidence one way or another. Sherry With all that Dumbledore says in HBP concerning the damage to the soul by the act of murder, my interpretation of his character is that he would never ask someone to commit murder. It seemed that Dumbledore considered it a truly terrible thing and he placed a lot of importance on that soul damage. In particular, Snape must have an already damaged soul, and I can't imagine him asking Snape to commit such an act on his behalf. Adam 2. DD is against murder. Really? What has been asking/preparing Harry for all these years? The final tea party with Riddle so that Harry can convince him to be a good little boy and then they ride off into the sunset together? No. DD has been preparing Harry for the final battle with Voldy in order for Harry to kill or attempt to kill him. DD has even been giving direct assistance in destroying Marvolo's ring, searching for Horcruxes, etc. so that it will be easier for Harry to presumably "finish off" ol' V-Mort. This tells me that DD recognizes that murder IS acceptable in some circumstances and it would, therefore, not be a stretch to think DD would consider the circumstance of "that" night do be one in which murder would be acceptable. Sherry Ok, there is the difference that war and law enforcement and self defense are excuses that free people of guilt in the eyes of the law, fi they kill another person. Of course, providing that a law enforcement officer was acting within his rights. And remember, Moody, an auror, tried not to use unforgivable curses in his job, even after the ministry allowed aurors to do so. However, before you say, aha, this is war, I can't think of any time in history, when a soldier was allowed to kill his own general and got away with it. Neither do I think Harry will be doing something as simple as pulling out his wand and shouting the killing curse to defeat Voldemort. Adam 3. Murder make someone evil, therefore Snape is evil. I will be looking for the same folks to post that Harry is ESE! if it turns out that he murders Voldy. The standards cannot change just because the murderer is someone we like and the victim is someone we don't like. Murder is murder and a murderer is a murderer whether is be Harry or Snape. It may turn out that Harry will not murder Voldy, but there is that chance, so we should be ready to assign the ESE tag to Harry if it does transpire. Sherry Again, I refer you to the comments Dumbledore makes about what the act of murder does to a person's soul. And if Harry does indeed kill Voldemort, this time it will be an act of war, a soldier killing the enemy general. Perfectly acceptable in wartime. i realize you may consider this a difference that isn't really much, but how else could soldiers live with themselves after war? And again, I don't expect JKR to do something as simple as Harry murdering Voldemort. Whatever he does to vanquish the enemy, i expect her to do something quite different. Otherwise, what on earth has she been writing about all this time? Unlike some others who believe Snape is evil, I don't want Harry to kill anyone, not even Snape. But I expect Harry to defeat Voldemort in some way. The difference for me is that if whatever he does ends up in the final demise of Voldemort, Harry is simply doing his duty as the only soldier who can accomplish this. But Snape, purposely killing Dumbledore was an act of murder. He killed his own general, and more than that, the one person who had believed in him and trusted him. I see the two as very big differences. In the RW, no matter what the reason or secret plan, Snape would be court martialed for such a thing, whereas Harry would not. Adam, who cannot see evil in what Snape did, try as he might Sherry, who cannot see good in what Snape did, try as she might. Sigh. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 17:40:07 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:40:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and murder/This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish In-Reply-To: <007101c5a419$1becd250$973a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138000 > Adam > 2. DD is against murder. > Really? What has been asking/preparing Harry for all these > years? The final tea party with Riddle so that Harry can convince > him to be a good little boy and then they ride off into the sunset > together? No. DD has been preparing Harry for the final battle with > Voldy in order for Harry to kill or attempt to kill him. Alla: He is preparing Harry to defeat Voldemort( just as DD defeated Grindelwald), TRUE, but killing him? I am not so sure about it now, when Dumbledore stresses over and over that Harry's special power is his ability to love. Adam: This tells me that DD recognizes > that murder IS acceptable in some circumstances and it would, > therefore, not be a stretch to think DD would consider the > circumstance of "that" night do be one in which murder would be > acceptable. Alla: In self defense maybe? Is there any proof that Snape was defending himself against Dumbledore? > Sherry > Neither do I think Harry will be doing something as simple as pulling out > his wand and shouting the killing curse to defeat Voldemort. Alla: Not me either, Sherry, in fact whether Voldemort will die at the end or not, I seriously doubt that Harry would commit act of killing in the first place. My guess is that his ability to love would manifest itself in some kind of magical equivalent and that charm or something will do something to Voldemort, plus I am sort of agreeing that Harry will be ready to sacrifice himself , but will find it not needed at the last moment. > > > Adam > 3. Murder make someone evil, therefore Snape is evil. > I will be looking for the same folks to post that Harry is ESE! > if it turns out that he murders Voldy. The standards cannot change > just because the murderer is someone we like and the victim is > someone we don't like. Murder is murder and a murderer is a murderer > whether is be Harry or Snape. It may turn out that Harry will not > murder Voldy, but there is that chance, so we should be ready to > assign the ESE tag to Harry if it does transpire. Alla: Huh? If Harry would murder Dumbledore, or I don't know anybody of the Order Members, believe me I WOULD call him Evil. But calling him Evil for killing an Enemy, which as I said above I strongly doubt would occur, but if it is - I would consider it an act of self-defense ( even if Harry kills Voldemort in his sleep), because Voldemort had been after Harry for many years now. So, unless you could show me that Dumbledore was Snape's mortal enemy,who made several attempts on his life and Snape killed him in the act of self-defense, I consider the circumstances to be very different. Hagrid" wrote: > Dang. I don't like Snape. I have trusted Harry / Neville and > Sirius's feelings for most of the series, but there is one point I > can't get around. > > If Snape is a full DE, Snape will tell LV of the hunt for Horcruxes > now. > > If that happens, alarms would be set at each site to kill Harry ... > or they will be hidden more thoroughly than they have for the last > 50 years. > > Since JKR is not planning another 50 books, but wants to wrap it up > with #7, ... I'm sorry to say this, but ... SNAPE IS NOT EVI- ... I > can't say it (wimpers). > > DID SNAPE KNOW ABOUT HORCRUXES?- > Snape would have to know what kind of injury DD had the first time > DD cured him after the ring. Alla: Hmm, I don't know. First of all I am not 100% sure that Snape indeed knows about Horcruxes at all with Dumbledore not having confidantes and all. I mean, theoretically, Dumbledore did not have to inform Snape about what CAUSED the injury, only what kind of curse caused it, right? With his uncanny ability to recognise the magic in the cave, I think Dumbledore knew what curse was put on the ring, even if he could not heal it at the moment. But even if we assume that Snape knows about Horcruxes and he indeed tells about Trio's quest to Voldemort. So, Voldemort increases defenses, etc, BUT I think in book 7 Harry and Co are supposed to perform some extraordinary deeds. Therefore I think that even with increased defenses, assasination attempts on them , etc, they are supposed to manage somehow. Right, so my point is that I don't think that the fact that if Voldemort knows, he will make Harry's job much harder, proves that Snape is not ESE. Just my opinion, Alla From sionwitch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 17:32:47 2005 From: sionwitch at yahoo.com (Virginia Villamediana) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? Message-ID: <20050818173247.65861.qmail@web33803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138001 Valky wrote Sirius and Dumbledore we are reminded carefully, are men with purpose and courage the kind who would give their own lives completely, wouldn't become ghosts or try to avoid giving the gift that selfless actions could provide to those they love. These are not the simply miserable tragedies that they first appear. So what exactly *are* they? Sherry wrote: Some have suggested in the past, that Sirius was killed by an order member, as a way of either getting him out of the way or for the furthering of some plan. Or of course, if it's someone ESE in the order to remove one Virginia now: A really crazy theory just occurs to me.. What if Dumbledore told Sirius ,and maybe other members of the Order, something about what he (Dumbledore) was doing, not exactly about the Horcruxes but about the serch of clues about Voldemort's plan to achieve inmortality, and told them that somehow he suspect that a very usefull information could be found in the memory of some people that are in the other side of the veil. What if Siruis voluntarily decided to take that task to himself, because he felt useless to the Order and wanted to do something important to help defeat Voldemort. If this is the case, maybe some other member of the order has to kill Siruis, (Tonks maybe?) but make it appear as if Sirius was murdered by Death Eaters to avoid suspicions about Siruis death. When they found that Harry went to the MoM they saw this situation as the possible oportunity to do what they had planned. Maybe nobody agreed to do this but Sirius, even Dumbledore did'nt want him to do it, Dumbledore wanted to find another way to collect the information about Voldemort from the people in the other side of the veil, but Siruis was stubborn and wanted to do it without wasting anymore time. Siruis ask Tonks to make him fall through the veil and make it appear that was Bellatrix who did it. This Hypothetical situation may explain why Dumbledore said: 'It is *my* fault Sirius died. Or should I say, almost entirely my fault ...' OOtP 729. It also would explain why Tonks felt so miserable and guilty about Sirius death?. This would give Sirius death a purpose, imagine what he could find about Voldemort if perhaps he meets R.A.B behind the veil?.. Now I dont know how Sirius can pass that information from where he is. Some ideas? I apologize because I m sure this crazy theory has many many holes and its no well written but again I am still learning English, so, start shooting :-P . Virginia From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 17:47:08 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:47:08 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: <002a01c5a415$372ea740$08c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138002 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > The only *proof* that Snape killed > Dumbledore is the eye-witness > account of three Death Eaters, one > wanna-be Death Eater, one Werewolf > and Harry Potter Not true, one other person saw Snape kill Dumbledore, the Narrator; and in 6 books the Narrator has never EVER been wrong. The Narrator never saw Sirius Black kill anyone, he just saw people say they saw him do it. And the Narrator never said he saw Barty Crouch Jr die in Azkaban, he just heard people claim they had seen it. But things are quite different in the Snape Dumbledore murder, the Narrator saw it, he saw all of it and saw it first hand, he was not shy about telling we readers all about it either. > I'd say the evidence that LV > killed James and Lily is just > a little stronger as the Murderer > himself has said he did it The Narrator never saw James and Lilly's murder, the closest is Harry foggy memory of it, we don't have all the gory details like in Dumbledore's murder. And as for Voldemort's confession, well, we know a House Elf and Voldemort's uncle also confessed to murders but in reality they killed nobody. Please understand, I am not saying for one instant that Voldemort did not kill James and Lilly, the evidence is very strong enormously strong, that he did, but the evidence is even stronger that Snape murdered Dumbledore. Eggplant From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 18 17:51:29 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:51:29 -0000 Subject: Responses to several posts (Was: Re: JKR's opinion of Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138003 > > Brothergib wrote: > > Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? > > JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on > a > > turban." > > > > From the mouth of JKR herself! Does suggest that Snape would not > > willingly help Voldemort! > > > > Cheryl: > > > > ...Or it could just be a comment about Snape's sense of fashion:) > > > Brothergib says; > > The question was about who was the bad guy, not about clothing. If > anyone can HONESTLY tell me that their immediate reaction to that > statement was that Snape wouldn't wear a turban, then I guess I would > have to believe them. It does feel a bit like fitting an answer to > agree with ESE Snape!! Rachael: I think it was an example of JKR avoiding answering the question, but with humour. If she said "Snape is good and wouldn't help Voldemort" then we'd never question his motives or characters throughout the other books as Harry always does. If she said "It's because I'm saving Snape's evil moment for book 6 and didn't want to waste it so early" then DD's death wouldn't be so surprising and we wouldn't have the blind trust in him throughout the book (and people wouldn't continue with all their Snape theories). So, she avoided really answering the question by making a joke. And regardless of whether Snape is good or evil or somewhere in between, I think we all know it's true - Snape would never wear a turban! Rachael From elbarad at aol.com Thu Aug 18 14:24:15 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:24:15 -0000 Subject: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138004 Hagrid wrote: > If Snape is a full DE, Snape will tell LV of the hunt for Horcruxes > now. True. I don't think that snape know about the horcruxes. Dumbledore does not seem to have confided in anyone apart from Harry (and Ron and Hermione). If Voldemort is to be defeated it is vitally important that no word of the search for the horcruxes gets back to Voldemort and, spies aside, LV is a highly accomplished legilimens. Noone can know. aussie > DID SNAPE KNOW ABOUT HORCRUXES?- > Snape would have to know what kind of injury DD had the first time > DD cured him after the ring. I disagree. All snape would have needed to know was that Dumbledore had fallen foul of some dark magic bound to an object, which is not uncommon in the HP world, think back to the snuff box in the house of black, or the opal necklace! aussie > If that happens, alarms would be set at each site to kill Harry ... > or they will be hidden more thoroughly than they have for the last > 50 years. Precisely. aussie > Since JKR is not planning another 50 books, but wants to wrap it up > with #7, ... I'm sorry to say this, but ... SNAPE IS NOT EVI- ... I > can't say it (wimpers). Snape is not a particularly nice person but, as Sirius tells us in OotP, the world is not divided simply into death eaters and good people. There are plenty of bad people who are not death eaters. I believe snape to be one of them. But I do acknowledge that all of the subtly hidden pointers that this is indeed the case may be just an elaborate double-bluff on the part of JKR. Snape may indeed be as much of a baddy as he seems at face value. BUT, please consider, for all that Snape bullies and enjoys watching people suffer humiliation, he does not seem to take pleasure in physical pain. Unlike Umbridge he has never used phsical pain as a punishment, and he certainly stopped Amycus from Crucio-ing Harry very promptly. Given how much he loathes Harry, it is almost a little surprising that he didn't stand there and gloat for a while before checking Amycus' spell. So surprising indeed, that it makes me wonder whether there is a little bit of good hidden in there after all. Whatever Snape's alignment, I'm certain that he is going to have a highly significant part to play in the final destruction of Lord Voldemort. Rebecca From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 18:06:25 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:06:25 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- in final stages -- Winner in a few days Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138005 Hello All, FYI, the HBP Prediction Contest is now in its final stages. All entries have been graded by minions or myself according to the Ruthless Rubric. After I received all the entries back, I reread and re-evaluated the top 3 entries from each minion. From those, the Top 18 Finalists have been chosen. The top 18 are now out to various Minions (Minions: check your email for my note) who will each decide who the winner is. Soon, I will tally the votes and compose a filk to announce The HP-est of Them All and the 10 HMs. TigerPatronus From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 18 18:06:29 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:06:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138006 Ceridwen: > Fourth, if this was not a 'Severus... please... > (mindreading)kill me' or 'Severus... please... (mindreading) > say it isn't so!', then what was the look passed between > Dumbledore and Snape? If things were not as they seemed, > then a bit of Legilimency doesn't seem out of order. > If things were exactly as they seemed (to Harry), then > a long look while Dumbledore tried to gather strength > to continue the discussion might fit. [...] > A lot of people, here and elsewhere, have said that > DD wouldn't ask > Snape to kill him. In normal circumstances, I would agree. > It would damage the soul. But DD said, before HBP, > that they are at war. And > the war theme continues. houyhnhnm: IMO, way too much has been made of AK/killing tearing the soul. The sole basis for this in canon is Slughorn's statement in Ch. 23 of HBP: "By an act of evil--the supreme act of evil. By committing murder ...." Note that he doesn't specify the method and he does use the word "murder". Murder, according to my dictionary, is killing with malice. So whether the actual cause of death is the poison administered by Harry or the curse delivered by Snape, neither would be guilty of murder if they killed without malice. We know there was no malice on Harry's part. ("Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing...."). With Snape we are not sure, but the parallel language is at least suggestive of the possibility that the "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" was for himself. I, too, felt that Dumbledore's pleading on the tower is significant and I have been puzzled by it. It seems out of character for both Snape and Dumbledore that there would have been complete candor between them regarding the UV. The idea that Dumbledore has a "plan" for Snape to kill him is just too grotesque. And out of character for Rowling. But the idea that Dumbledore would plead for his life is equally unbelievable. I believe what happened on the tower is that when Snape arrives, the die is cast. There are only two choices. It is not necessary for there to have been any prior discussion about what to do if Draco comes close to succeeding, though there could have been. Snape simply acts like a good Slytherin. He makes the choice that benefits the most people including himself, without regard to sentiment. Dumbledore would have expected him to. Therefore, I am beginning to think that Dumbledore's pleading has nothing to do with what is occurring on the tower. Dumbledore has been living on borrowed time for a good while. He knows he is going to die before long from one cause or another, from horcrux curses or just from old age. I think he is concerned with what Snape will do *after* he is gone. I believe Snape is personally loyal to Dumbledore, but not necessarily to what Dumbledore stands for. I doubt if he really understands what Dumbledore stands for. This fits with Snape being an authoritarian personality and with HP theme of the search for a good father. Dumbledore trusts Snape to obey him as long as he (Dumbledore) is alive, but worries about what Snape will do once he is gone. So, the pleading then, is for Snape to do something he has promised (reluctantly perhaps) to do after Dumbledore is dead. Could it be to continue to watch out for Harry? From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 18 18:12:38 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:12:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Protection from disarming (Expelliarmus) References: <1124337262.2085.42788.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001401c5a420$6c036e00$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 138007 lazyvix3n pondered: > Fred, George, here's my new product and I'm hoping that you might be > prepared to sell it in Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. It's a really useful > item that can be used to protect wizards and witches from disarmament > charms. This may look like an ordinary muggle-household piece of > string, but tie this end to your belt, button, wrist, neck, ankle, > friend or whatever and this end to your wand, Voila! You never need > fear being disarmed again! > > And here we have the professional version, made not out of String but > what Muggles call 'Eclastic', this one returns straight to the hand > after a disarming, useful for professionals such as Headmasters, > teachers, escaped convicts... Swish and flick, swish and flick! Who knows _what_ the results would be if you tried doing that with some twangly stuff on the other end of your wand fastening it to your belt - might even earth the magic into you and leave you with steam coming out of your knickers! gwyn eich byd Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Aug 18 18:15:26 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:15:26 -0000 Subject: Snape deserves to die, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138008 Humor, Eggplant, humor. >>> Eggplant wrote: >>> ME, JKR, the sole surviving descendent of the noble Harry Potter. >> Matt wrote: >> I think you mean "sole surviving ancestor." > Eggplant wrote: > Nope, I meant what I said. Think about it, "sole surviving > ancestor" doesn't really make any sense. And ancestors are not > usually surviving. J.K. Rowling wrote: "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue." (COS, ch. 18 (original US/UK editions)). From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 18 18:25:40 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:25:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The DADA jinx and its victims References: <1124356417.803.71936.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c5a422$3e700820$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 138009 Carol wrote: >into a portkey. (I've given even less thought to Umbridge or how she >shapes her own fall, which of course takes the shape of unknown >punishments by the centaur that rob her of what passes for her mind, >with Hermione rather than Snape playing a key role in her fall. I >haven't thought about the agent. Perhaps there isn't one. It ought to >be her horrible blood-drawing quill, but it doesn't seem to be.) I wonder if the jinx affects Dolores in the form of hubris: she goes from just being the DADA professor to being the Inquisitor to being the Head and steadily the amount of stress that she's under rises. Finally, she's desperately trying to control a school that's fallen into virtual anarchy, rushing from crisis to crisis and getting more and more fraught until she commits the cardinal error of trying to crucio Harry. Just a thought there. >But Snape as DADA teacher fits the pattern beautifully. He takes a >post he has supposedly wanted for fifteen years, knowing that it's >jinxed. He has in one way or another contributed to the fall of the >Instead, almost as soon as he accepts the DADA position, the curse >manifests itself in the form of the Unbreakable Vow, directly linked >with Voldemort's plan to punish the Malfoys and perhaps to kill >Dumbledore. Through pride or folly or some other fault within himself, >Snape agrees to take the vow and is trapped by the unanticipated third >provision to "do the deed" if Draco fails. A very interesting post! Another possible cause for speculation is why Dumbledore, knowing of the existence of the jinx, didn't alert at least some of the professors to its existence so that they could try to counter it... hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 18 18:31:00 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:31:00 -0000 Subject: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138010 Rebecca: > BUT, please consider, for all that Snape bullies and enjoys watching > people suffer humiliation, he does not seem to take pleasure in > physical pain. houyhnhnm: I don't actually see Snape as sadistic, even verbally, in spite of what Rowling has said about basing him on a sadistic teacher she had. Umbridge is sadistic. Snape's verbal cruelty has a number of payoffs for him --1)classroom management--it's easier to control students with fear than to earn their respect, 2)relief from the enormous amount of psychic energy it must take to keep all that anger under control, 3)projection and momentary relief from his own self-hatred; but I don't think enjoyment of others' pain is one of the payoffs. I think he is indifferent to the feelings of others, a grievous enough sin in and of itself. From troelsfo at yahoo.dk Thu Aug 18 18:58:44 2005 From: troelsfo at yahoo.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:58:44 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel: Analyzing Hermione's missed Charms class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050818183235.0339d380@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 138011 At 16:05 18-08-05 +0000, davenclaw wrote: >Conclusion: What we know about time-travel in HP means that JKR >messed up something along the way. Either "changing the past" is >not as absolute as it sounds, but rather should be "purposely >altering the course of events", or "free will" in the present has >the potential to be severely hampered by decisions we will make in >the future. That is a common misunderstanding for people criticising Novikov's Self-Consistent Histories, but it fails under closer scrutiny. The limitation on the possible successful causes of action is imposed, under this theory, by the the laws of nature -- the same laws that prevent you from walking bare-footed head down on the ceiling, but nobody's complaining that Newton robs them of their Free Will . . . (and then there's the whole issue about the directions of time and causality, but we'd better leave that for elsewhere) /Troels From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Aug 18 18:54:08 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:54:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138012 Merrylinks wrote: > I just reached the chapter "Detention with Dolores" in OOP, > where Harry has been doing lines: > ......... > "'I must not tell lies,' Harry wrote. The cut in the back of > his right hand opened and began to bleed afresh." > > This would indicate that Harry is right handed, at least for > writing. Yet on the book covers drawn by Mary Grandpre, Harry > appears to be left handed. [Snipped: Geoff B. also recalls Harry's explicit statement in PS/SS that he is right-handed] So I guess we have an illustrator who's as good with orientation as JKR is with numbers. The US cover of HBP also shows Dumbledore with a healthy right hand, even though it is his right (wand) arm that is supposed to be injured. (Yes, Dumbledore is also right-handed; the narrator refers specifically to his "right" hand when he stands up at the opening feast in HBP.) -- Matt From merpsiren at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 17:52:27 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (merpsiren) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:52:27 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138013 Thank you everyone for the feedback on my theory (Message 137926). I really am fascinated by all of this! I want to respond to some of the follow-up questions that have been posed. Unfortunately, it takes my brain a while to figure out how to best express what is trapped up there... so it may take me a while. As for why it is Snape's memory in the cave... (Allie asked why would someone fill the basin with Snape's memory.) Here is my response... We know that to create a Horcrux Voldemort's soul must be ripped apart by the act of a murder. We also know that Voldemort was busy making Horcruxes up until his attack on the Potter's. (Dumbledore suggests that Voldemort's plan is to create the 6th horcrux with Harry's murder HBP US ed. Pg 506) I would suggest that when the Horcrux of the locket was created (and with my theory Snape's family is killed) the potion/poison/memory surrounding the locket in the basin is the history of the murder committed to create that specific Horcrux. Richard asked "Would Voldemort really trust ANYONE whose family he had murdered right before that person's eyes? And wouldn't the chapter in OotP entitled "Snape's Worst Memory" have been horribly mistitled if this were Snape's memory of his family's deaths?" I'd like to address the second part of the question, as i am still trying to formulate a way to express my feelings on the first part. >From Harry's perspective this is surely "Snape's Worst Memory"... but do we really believe this is the worst memory from Snape's POV? Snape appears to have deposited three memories into the pensieve. OotP pg 533 "Snape pulled out his wand from an inside pocket of his robes and Harry tensed in his chair, but Snape merely raised the wand to his temple and placed its tip into the greasy roots of his hair. When he withdrew it, some silvery sunstance came away, stretching from the temple to wand like a thick gossamer strand, which broke as he pulled the wand away from it and fell gracefully in the pensieve. Twice more Snape raised the wand to his temple and deposited the silvery substance into the stone basin..." When Harry entered the pensieve in Order of the Phoenix, he was there only long enough to see only one of Snape's rather embarrassing memories. (OotP pg 640-649) As an adult I can think of several memories from my own life and while many have been embarrassing, I can think of others that are much worse. I believe we are really to see this from Harry's adolescent innocence and never question what other memories Snape was safeguarding. I'm still working on the other responses... so, I'll be back! Thanks everyone! Kris (merpsiren) From merpsiren at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 17:57:34 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (merpsiren) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:57:34 -0000 Subject: JKR's opinion of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138014 > > Question: Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead > > of Snape? > > > > JKR: "Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about > > to put on a turban." Or... putting on the turban means, letting Voldemort possess your body and attempting to restore him to power. If Snape has completely turned his back to Voldemort, he would not "put on a turban" any more than Harry or Dumbledore would! Kris (merpsiren) From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 18:46:30 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:46:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138015 > houyhnhnm : *(snip)* > I, too, felt that Dumbledore's pleading on the tower is > significant and I have been puzzled by it. It seems out of > character for both Snape and Dumbledore that there would have > been complete candor between them regarding the UV. The idea > that Dumbledore has a "plan" for Snape to kill him is just too > grotesque. And out of character for Rowling. But the idea > that Dumbledore would plead for his life is equally unbelievable. > > I believe what happened on the tower is that when Snape arrives, > the die is cast. There are only two choices... *(snip)* Ceridwen: Just for speculation, and just as out of character as anything else, how's this: Dumbledore isn't pleading. Not for life, and not for death. He is trying to get Snape's attention to tell him something. Someone mentioned elsewhere that Dumbledore, a polite gentleman raised in a very polite era in his childhood and youth, almost never says 'please'. So, why now? Because he wants Snape's attention. 'Severus... please... listen to me'. It's what comes after that is pure and unadulterated speculation, based on no canon that I know of. No canon can exist, because we see neither Snape's nor Dumbledore's POVs in this scene. 'Severus... please... IMPERIO! Kill me!' Or, less shocking for Dumbledore, 'Severus... please... Kill me, I'm dead already/dying and it hurts!' It could be anything, and we've all had our fun. We've all speculated from our own takes on the scene. A couple: 'Severus... please... Harry is Stupified in his invisibility cloak behind the door, get the DEs out of here' 'Severus... please... don't destroy the faith I've had in you' But I'm tossing out the idea that Dumbledore calls for Snape's attention, Imperio's him, and forces him to do the deed. I don't necessarily believe it, but left with what we do have in canon, which is a very suddenly, IMO, OC!Snape, or as someone else said, our first glimpse of DE!Snape, it's about as wild as any other theory out there. Ceridwen, who says that theories are fun. From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Aug 18 19:23:17 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:23:17 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: <20050818160446.45512.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > Juli: My bet goes to Harry, he deserves it. Dumbledore for sure would have given it to him, McGonagall probably will too, but the question is wether Harry will return to Hogwarts on his 7th year. > > > Juli > Aol: jlnbtr > Yahoo: jlnbtr > Hermione's a shoe-in, but I doubt it will be Harry. Dumbledore said (and I agree!) he has enough to be going on with, remember? :) I doubt Harry would even have any interest in being Head Boy given all that happened to him last year. Who are the other 7th years? It won't be a Slytherine, do we know the Ravenclaw 7th years? Or what about Ernie MacMillan, he seems up to it. Allie From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 18 19:26:54 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:26:54 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138017 Vivian: > When Harry finds it and destroys it, Voldemort > will know because he will feel himself > becoming more human. That is when Voldemort will > then go to the cave > to see what the potion reveals. houyhnhnm: "Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?" Harry asked, ignoring the portraits. "A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Valdemort is now so immersed in evil and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss...but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy." (HBP, AE, p. 507-508) From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 19:34:56 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:34:56 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138018 Finwitch: It took this sixth book - but I have now realised the truth. As has Harry, I think - partly because he finally said to Dumbledore that yes, Dumbledore trusts Snape but he does not. Truth is, Dumbledore's been telling the real reason often. He does keep saying "innocent until proven guilty, Severus" - when Snape's accusing Harry of this or that. Oh yes, THAT'S the reason. Dumbledore trusting Snape says nothing of *Snape*, but of Dumbledore. Because Dumbledore believed his story. That's it. There is no secret reason (although Tonks &co. feel more comfortable to belive there was), just that. Dumbledore trusted Severus Snape simply because Dumbledore is a trusting man. Because Dumbledore believes very firmly in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. And of course, there's also the matter of well - if no one ever believes the redeemed, who ever will redeem themselves? And just complete trust of the one single person is so valuable that few would break it. All in all, Dumbledore didn't need a special reason to trust Snape. He'd need a special reason NOT to trust someone. And that's what I find to be his greatness, courage and goodness... It would undermine Dumbledore's goodness if there was any secret reason. There is none, because (as I seem to recall JKR saying) Dumbledore is the Epitome of Goodness. I just wonder, will the Protection Magic of Dumbledore's still be in Force with Dumbledore gone? Finwitch From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 18 19:43:17 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:43:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > Finwitch: > > It took this sixth book - but I have now realised the truth. As has > Harry, I think - partly because he finally said to Dumbledore that > yes, Dumbledore trusts Snape but he does not. > > Truth is, Dumbledore's been telling the real reason often. He does > keep saying "innocent until proven guilty, Severus" - when Snape's > accusing Harry of this or that. Oh yes, THAT'S the reason. Dumbledore > trusting Snape says nothing of *Snape*, but of Dumbledore. > > Because Dumbledore believed his story. That's it. There is no secret > reason (although Tonks &co. feel more comfortable to belive there > was), just that. > All in all, Dumbledore didn't need a special reason to trust Snape. > He'd need a special reason NOT to trust someone. And that's what I > find to be his greatness, courage and goodness... > > Finwitch Nope, I cannot buy that reason. This is an Ex-Death Eater and now turned spy for Dumbledore. Do you really think he would just accept him with open arms and not make sure Snape's story checked out? That there HAD to be some proof of Snape's turn to good(i.e. I'm still sticking with my Regulus Theory).... Dumbledore is trusting, but he isn't a fool. He didn't trust Riddle, he didn't give Riddle a chance when Riddle came to apply for the DADA job. There is something more going on with why DD trusts Snape so much, and I am not just speaking of the 15 years that Snape has been loyal to DD. The *why* Snape turned - afterall, Snape could be deceiving DD, like he is with LV. The fact that DD goes out on a limb, shortly after LV is gone and the DE's are on trial and states "Severus Snape is no more a Death Eater than I am" colebiancardi From lealess at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 19:46:25 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:46:25 -0000 Subject: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: >I don't actually see Snape as sadistic, even verbally, in spite of >what Rowling has said about basing him on a sadistic teacher she had. >Umbridge is sadistic. Snape's verbal cruelty has a number of payoffs >for him -1)classroom management--it's easier to control students with >fear than to earn their respect, 2)relief from the enormous amount of >psychic energy it must take to keep all that anger under control, >3)projection and momentary relief from his own self-hatred; but I >don't think enjoyment of others' pain is one of the payoffs. I think >he is indifferent to the feelings of others, a grievous enough sin in >and of itself. lealess: In fact, we see Snape becoming less sadistic in HBP, and more concerned with teaching and helping (Draco, at least), for whatever purpose. This may be because he has finally realized his dream, but it is also as likely it is because he knows the DADA position is cursed. He may just know this from observation. Dumbledore may or may not have shared Voldemort's desire for the job with Snape. But Snape can probably figure the curse out for himself. It is well- rumored amongst the student body, after all. Whether or not he thinks he can counter the curse is another question. I think this is why he is relatively calm in detention with Harry. He realizes his time is limited and he is trying to teach Harry something, whether right or wrong. What interests me is if Voldemort really still wants the job, and why, with a loyal Death Eater in place, he doesn't lift the curse, let alone set his follower to accomplish whatever goal he has through the DADA job (as he did with Quirrell and Crouch Jr.). Perhaps he just doesn't trust Snape. >From the little we see in the DADA class, Snape is actually teaching the students a valuable skill, not indulging in a sadistic desire to belittle them, nor falling uncontrollably under the spell of the Dark Arts. He is teaching defense, after all. Rambling on lealess From juli17 at aol.com Thu Aug 18 20:08:46 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:08:46 EDT Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. Message-ID: <192.4641f718.303644ce@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138021 Merprisen writes: Snape has lost everything. I believe this is the reason Dumbledore implicitly believes and trusts Snape. Snape wants vengence as much as Harry does. I have probably left out half of what is swirling around in my mind, but I really wanted to get this theory out there and see what others think... so let me know! Merprisen Julie says: It's an interesting theory, and one that has been discussed in several forms, but the biggest problem with Voldemort having killed someone in Snape's family is, how would Voldemort ever continue to believe Snape had remained loyal to him? If Voldemort took something or someone from Snape expressly to punish him, inflicted such a loss knowing it would cause Snape great pain, he'd be a complete fool not to entertain the possibility--no, make it probability--that Snape would want some serious revenge. I think whatever Voldemort did that caused Snape such pain and remorse, he did it unknowingly. Though I'm not convinced of the theory, Snape harboring feelings for Lily would work because there is no reason Voldemort would know of these feelings. (I must note that I've never believed Voldemort was willing to spare Lily because Snape asked him to--after all he could have just stupified her or something if he was interested in keeping Snape happy and loyal. That would have easily ended any potential interference from her, and kept her alive in the process). I feel certain whatever that ironclad reason Dumbledore had for trusting Snape, which is probably the reason Snape left the Death Eaters, it's something Voldemort knows nothing about, or has not yet realized. (Or if he does know about it, he doesn't recognize its significance to Snape). When he does learn or realize it, poor Sevvie will be toast. Julie (who is almost certain Snape will die in Book 7, and that his death will come from Voldemort's hand) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 20:14:05 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:14:05 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (+a Horcrux Thought) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138022 Shylah wrote: > the logical next step for evil > Snape is to have a few words > with LV, and book 7 open with LV > squirreling all his Horcruxes back, > doing a 'head' count and plotting > to recover what was lost by making more. Marianne S: I believe that this IS the logical next step for evil Snape, which is also why I believe Snape is NOT evil and will not be taking that step. Snape's only concerned after Dumbledore died (in what I can't help but to reiterate was in a very NON AK way -- eyes closed, blood, no scared expression, lifting up and falling over the tower...) was getting out with Draco. Harry got in the way, as he would do, but an evil Snape would have allowed others to curse Harry, and he would have of course cursed Harry himself instead of just deflect the curses Harry tried. An evil Snape would not have said "He belongs to the Dark Lord" or whatever the exact words were, but he would have DELIVERED Harry to the Dark Lord. Without Dumbledore's protection, he'd have nothing to lose. I believe, and I know I'm not alone, that there is a preponderance of evidence in that scene that prove Snape is not ESE!. I have a strong suspicion that Snape is taking Draco into hiding. Snape will need to be in hiding from the Order, the Ministry, and from Voldemort; I am sure that Voldemort will be none too pleased that Snape did the deed assigned to Draco because Draco couldn't go through with it. Draco, Narcissa, Belatrix, and Severus would all be killed or at least very severely punished and tortured for the Unbreakable Vow. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape is hiding Narcissa along with Draco. Eggplant wrote: There is no evidence that Snape knows anything about Horcruxes and with the exception of the diary no evidence that Voldemort knows that any more are missing or in danger. He still thinks Harry and Dumbledore know nothing about them. Marianne S: Here's my thought about Horcruxes. Snape knows about them. I feel about this because I believe he had to know what the cursed object was when he kept the Ring Horcrux from killing Dumbledore. I don't believe that Voldemort would create more than 6 horcruxes (i.e. create a replacement Horcrux for the diary) because that would mean his soul has been split into more than 7 parts. I do agree, however, that Voldemort likely has no idea that Dumbledore, Harry (with Ron and Hermione), and I predict Snape as well have been/will continue to be after these horcruxes. It is my opinion that Snape doesn't like Harry because he CHOOSES to see and interpret Harry and his words/actions in an unlikeable way... he chooses to see the James in Harry instead of ever consciously noticing the Lily within him, as I posit this may be too painful for Severus... who may see that kind of pain as week. Nevertheless, I believe Snape knows that he and Harry are both after the same thing -- destruction of Horcruxes and Voldemort, and I think Harry's going to need some help (even if begrudgingly) from the Half Blood Prince to accomplish this. From lestat_884 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 19:32:58 2005 From: lestat_884 at hotmail.com (lestat_884) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:32:58 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138023 I believe Ernie is indeed very suited to become the next Head Boy. He strikes me as a Percy-personality, the "pompousness," the ambition, the attitude, everything about him is Percy-ish. Maybe he will continue along Percy's path and become Head Boy? But now that McGongall is Headmistress I don't know how her taste in appointing Head Boys and Girls will change. From juli17 at aol.com Thu Aug 18 20:51:21 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:51:21 EDT Subject: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore? Message-ID: <78.796345b8.30364ec9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138024 After reading HBP and many, many posts, I am still convinced that we really do not know if Snape murdered Dumbledore. At the moment we only know what Harry and the Death Eaters witnessed--and what we readers witnessed through the words of the narrator. Which is... A weak and ill Dumbledore pleaded with Severus Snape, first before Snape even looked at him ("Severus..."). Once Snape was facing him, the two maintained silent eye contact for several moments. Dumbledore pleaded again ("Severus...please..."), then Snape pointed his wand at DD and spoke the AK curse, with an expression of revulsion and hatred etched in the planes of his face. A jolt of green light shot from Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore square in the chest. Dumbledore was blasted into the air, then fell slowly backward like a rag doll. After Harry confronted Snape, he found Dumbledore's body, spread-eagled, his eyes closed, looking like he might be sleeping but for the strange angle of his arms and legs. So, we know that Snape pointed his wand at DD, spoke the AK, that green light shot out of his wand, that DD was propelled backward, and that he was dead by the time Harry eventually reached him. That it is all as it appears--that Snape vilely murdered DD--is certainly one possibility. But there are others... 1. Simply because Snape spoke the AK does not mean that is the spell he actually cast. We know there are nonverbal spells, and we have no definite canon prohibiting speaking one spell while actually casting another. So he may not have cast an AK at all. 2. While an Unforgivable spell is said to leave a stain on the soul, we don't know for sure whether this is true of Snape, even if he did cast (or attempt to cast) an AK. The Aurors were allowed to cast Unforgivables in the last war when absolutely necessary, and presumably these didn't irrevocably stain their souls if their intent in casting the spell was not an evil one but served some higher or necessary purpose (like self-defense). If Snape cast the AK at Dumbledore's request and/or as a sort of mercy killing that also aided his crucial undercover role as a spy (which necessitated the spell be an Unforgivable rather than a lesser spell), then would his soul still be stained? And if he cast an AK, but it was an incomplete one because he lacked the evil intent to kill Dumbledore, yet it was still enough to kill Dumbledore in his weakened state (perhaps from the fall itself rather than the AK), would his soul still be stained? 3. Murder is killing with malicious intent. If Snape killed Dumbledore knowing that he was already dying, with the intent being to end DD's suffering and grant Dumbledore's own wish to make his death meaningful in the war against Voldemort (and perhaps to keep Dumbledore from turning into an Inferi if that is a consequence of his death by the potion), is that murder? Or is it mercy killing, even a sort of assisted suicide? (I realized assisted suicide is a touchy subject, but again I predicate this on DD already being terminally ill with little or no time left.) 4. If DD asked Snape to deliver the final killing blow, does this mean the same thing as asking Snape to commit murder, i.e., to stain or split his soul? I don't think it has to mean that. If it isn't murder, i.e., killing with malicious intent, but is some combination of mercy killing/releasing DD's soul before it can become an Inferi, then it isn't actually murder, and DD is not endangering Snape's soul. (And I agree that DD would not ask Snape to do something that would endanger his soul). For those who believe in ESE!Snape, if one of the above scenarios (or something similar that JKR has cleverly thought of and I haven't) turns out to be true in Book 7, would this be enough to accept a DumbledoresMan!Snape? Julie (who could--unhappily--accept an ESE!Snape *if* all the deliberate inconsistencies JKR threw into Snape's behavior in HBP were proved to serve an actual purpose for his character and the story, rather than simply being there for no other reason but to maintain doubts about his actual allegiance) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 18 20:55:36 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:55:36 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138025 Betsy: > I think having Snape's heart and soul (as it were) so entirely on > display would have gone a long way towards convincing Dumbledore of > Snape's total change of heart. And the incredibly personal reason > for that change would also explain why Dumbledore kept that reason > such a secret. SSSusan: When I first started nosing around HPfGU, before the release of OoP, I admit to reading about LOLLIPOPS [32909] and thinking, "Whoa! That would explain a lot!" And then sort of discarding it for it's Tewww Ewww to be Trewww factor [34857, 34862] and its being, well, maybe a little hokey. YET. With HBP, I felt we got, if not canon *support* for LOLLIPOPS, certainly some intriguing possibilities for backup and no refutation (I don't think). So... yes, Betsy, it would also explain, methinks, DD's reluctance to share the reason for his trust with Harry. I re-read the scene last night where Harry challenged DD to tell him why he trusts Snape, and DD seemed to be contemplating actually answering Harry... and then elected not to. I think, as long as Harry hates Snape so and as along as DD held out hope for Snape & Harry to manage to work "together," there was no way he felt he could drop that bombshell. It would reveal too much about Severus and it would appall Harry. Siriusly Snapey Susan, who suggests people **really** ought to go read 34857, as you just might be shocked how many of the SAME issues regarding Snape (when did he turn from Voldy, is he good or bad or something else entirely) were being discussed back then in Feb. '02. From ehteshamulh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 20:57:33 2005 From: ehteshamulh at yahoo.com (ehteshamulh) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:57:33 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138026 Lestat_884 wrote: > I believe Ernie is indeed very suited to become the next Head Boy. He > strikes me as a Percy-personality, the "pompousness," the ambition, > the attitude, everything about him is Percy-ish. Maybe he will > continue along Percy's path and become Head Boy? But now that > McGongall is Headmistress I don't know how her taste in appointing > Head Boys and Girls will change. Hmm, yes, canon does seem to be a bit bare as far as Head Boy candidates are concerned. And Rowling has certainly been positioning Ernie as a Percy-ish character. I just wonder, so no one thinks Ron has a chance? I mean, I was extremely surprised when he was made a prefect in the first place, but he seems to have stayed out of trouble since then - not too many detentions, been part of the Quidditch Championship-winning team, and seems to be making decent grades (from OWL evidence). And we know of past precedents of both the Head Boy and the Head Girl coming from the same house (and becoming lovers, but let's not go there). Ehtesham From EvilNuff at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 20:55:18 2005 From: EvilNuff at yahoo.com (evilnuff) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:55:18 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138027 Allie wrote: > Hermione's a shoe-in, but I doubt it will be Harry. Who are the other 7th years? I suspect it will be Ron. All of the things that Ron saw in the mirror in the first book will come true, Head Boy, captain of the Quidditch team and winning the House Cup. -David From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 22:07:48 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:07:48 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses and Harry's judgement ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138028 > >> Betsy Hp: > > > > And that's how Harry seems to see them in the beginning. > > Gryffindor was good; Slytherin was bad, and Hufflepuff and > > Ravenclaw were... not on his radar really. But as the years > > have gone by and Harry has started to grow up his stereotypes > > about the Houses and the people in them have begun breaking down. > > > >>Alla: > Heee. I disagree . :-) Betsy Hp: What?!? I *don't* believe it!! =D > >>Alla: > > I am still convinced that Harry's vision is NOT wrong per se. It > is LIMITED,yes, but not wrong. Lupinlore said ( I think) recently > that with the amounts of evidence presented Harry judges extremely > well, and I tend to agree with him. :-) > Betsy Hp: One word: Fake!Moody. You do say, in the part I snip, that if JKR holds information back from Harry then he's not so good at judging, but I've not noticed that he's all that hip to what makes the Slytherin's tick. I'd also point out his general displeasure in having Luna and Neville along for his great MoM raid in OotP (something about them being the last DA members he'd choose?). And they end up serving him quite well. Neville shows himself to be quite a good little soldier, IIRC. And, of course, Luna and Neville are the only returning DA members (outside of Harry's inner circle) to take part in the Hogwarts battle in HBP. I'm not saying Harry is a complete dunder-head when it comes to judging people (he does quite well with Scrimgeour). But he does have his biases. Though they *are* starting to break down. Thank goodness. > >>Alla: > I am still convinced that Harry judged correctly ALL people he > met from Slytherin house ( which is not many, I definitely > conceded). Betsy Hp: Well, there's Draco, and... erm... There's Draco. Has Harry conversed with any other Slytherin? I mean, aside from Quidditch barbs? And HBP showed us that Harry doesn't know Draco all that well. He seemed rather shocked to find Draco crying in the boys room. And I'm sure he disagreed with Dumbledore when Dumbledore first told Draco that he wasn't a killer. Yes, Harry knew Draco was up to something. (Which, quite frankly, wasn't all that hard to figure out. I mean, Draco practically said, "Hey! I'm up to something!") And Harry at least realized that Draco was a bit more formidable than either Hermione or Ron allowed. But I don't think Harry *ever* considered that Draco might actually be a victim of Voldemort's. > >>Alla: > > Hmmm, just when Harry starts to overcome his mistrust of adults, > nobody believes him and what do you know, Draco was indeed > planning Dumbledore assassination. Betsy Hp: Dumbledore certainly believed him. And Arthur went looking for some sort of proof he could take back to the Ministry, so actually, the only ones *not* believing Harry were Ron and Hermione. (IIRC, Arthur's main issue was with the idea of Draco being an actual Death Eater - something that's still up in the air by the end of HBP.) > >>Alla: > > I'd say Harry is able to reassess his conclusions. Betsy Hp: Well, yes of course he is. That was my main point. As Harry has gotten to know various members of each of the houses he's reassessed the stereotype he's had about that particular house. In HBP he's starting to reassess Slytherin. I think that will continue into book 7. > >>Alla: > Oh, I remembered something else from our earlier discussions on > this topic ( sorry if you did not make this argument, but I think > you did) I think you said earlier that Voldemort twisted Slytherin > values for the worst when he came to Slytherin, so before the > House was pretty good overall. Betsy Hp: Yeah, that's a theory of mine. Voldemort took the worst aspects of Slytherin and twisted them to his own use: recruiting Death Eaters. Just as he was hoping to do with the entire school of Hogwarts when he started working on getting the DADA job. > >>Alla: > I think this quote from HBP contradicts it. > "He was placed in Slytherin House almost the moment that the > Sorting Hat touched his head" - HBP, p.360. > I interpret this quote that Tom's values when he just came to > Hogwarts were already very similar to what Salazar looking for in > his students. Betsy Hp: I think this quote counters your theory: "You'll be Gryffindor like her, I suppose? Yes, it usually goes in families." (HBP scholastic p.70) Tom *was* Slytherin's last surviving heir, after all. > >>Alla: [quoting from JKR interview] > > JKR: But they're not all bad. They literally are not all bad. > [Pause.] Well, the deeper answer, the non-flippant answer, would > be that you have to embrace all of a person, you have to take them > with their flaws, and everyone's got them. It's the same way with > the student body. If only they could achieve perfect unity, you > would have an absolute unstoppable force, and I suppose it's that > craving for unity and wholeness that means that they keep that > quarter of the school that maybe does not encapsulate the most > generous and noble qualities, in the hope, in the very Dumbledore- > esque hope that they will achieve union, and they will achieve > harmony. Harmony is the word. Betsy Hp: Now normally, as I'm sure you know Alla , I don't hold much to the interviews, especially when they're interpertive. If she can't say it in her book, then she ain't saying it, is my opinion. But, since I'm not above a little hypocrisy now and then, and since this is pretty much *exactly* what I was saying, I'm going to point to this part. Without Slytherin and the qualities it offers, Hogwarts would not have harmony. It would, in my opinion, fall apart from within. I think the Founders (being the clever people they were) realized this and kept Slytherin as an important part of their school. It *also* backs my theory that Harry will need the help of Slytherin (however it's represented) to defeat Voldemort, who certainly symbolizes a lack of harmony, IMO. > >>Alla: [more JKR quotes] > JKR: But they're not all ? don't think I don't take your point, > but ? we, the reader, and I as the writer, because I'm leading you > all there ? you are seeing Slytherin house always from the > perspective of Death Eaters' children. They are a small fraction > of the total Slytherin population. I'm not saying all the other > Slytherins are adorable, but they're certainly not Draco, they're > certainly not, you know, Crabbe and Goyle. They're not all like > that, that would be too brutal for words, wouldn't it? > > ES: But there aren't a lot of Death Eater children in the other > houses, are there? > > JKR: You will have people connected with Death Eaters in the other > houses, yeah, absolutely. > >>[Now Alla's thoughts] > Please note that even though she says "they are not all bad" (and > I DO hope that they are not), she says that you are witnessing > Slytherin from the perspective of DE children, NOT that you are > witnessing Slytherin from Harry's perspective which is incorrect. > The way I interpret is that what you SEE is correct, but you are > not seeing everything. Betsy Hp: This is where I get hung up on folks running to the interviews. You're doing an awful lot of parsing of words that JKR used in a verbal interview, IMO. (In other words, in a format where she couldn't go back and say, oh I could have said this more clearly, etc.) Yes, Harry has only witnessed Draco (and to a lesser extent Crabbe and Goyle) as representative of Slytherin, and he's only witnessed Draco as a child of Death Eaters. But it's also true that we've only seen Slytherin from *Harry's perspective*. No, JKR doesn't come out and say that. She doesn't have to. Her books are written from Harry's POV, and she (as the author) knows this. Though I would agree, what we see *is* correct, but it's *huge* that we're not seeing everything. That's what every murder mystery book hinges on. Have we, the readers, seen everything? Are we putting together what we've seen correctly? Because once it all comes together suddenly the sweet little old lady is shown to have a ruthless side that enabled her to kill her grandson, and the hard- eyed tart he was dating really wasn't all that bad after all. Yes, Draco is plotting to kill someone. That's correct. Harry was right about that. But he's being *forced* to do it by a mad-man willing to kill his entire family if Draco fails. That changes the picture somewhat. At least, in my opinion. > >>Prep0strus: > > > > > > I want a Slytherin I can LIKE. > > > > >>Betsy Hp: > > Ahh, yes. That is a different sort of request. I think you'll > > meet a Slytherin you can like when Harry meets a Slytherin he > > can like. > > > >>Alla: > Ooo, I so with Preposterous here. I want a Slytherin I would like > and I have not met one yet, which I fully like ( and NO Betsy, I > don't think it matters whether Harry would like this person or not > in order for me to like him/her, but I suppose otherwise we would > not meet such person in the first place. > Betsy Hp: Just out of curiousty, Alla, who has Harry liked that you have not? My point was, if Harry likes a person, that throws an awful lot of weight into the "likable" side of the scale. Because Harry's running around seeing all these neat things about the person, and weren't they nice to do that? And wasn't their joke the funniest? And wow, aren't they super brave? It's hard for a reader to stand up to that sort of pressure from their POV guy. Especially if the author is on his side. (Of course it *can* happen. Witness the varying views of Ginny Weasley.) > >>Alla: > > So, yes, especially in light of interview I am even more convinced > that at the end the Houses will dissolve and will achieve that > unity JKR is talking about. > Betsy Hp: Oh ick. I hope not. I'm not sure how harmony is achieved when all the instruments are taken away. Of course, I'm a fan of the house system, so obviously, YMMV. :) Betsy Hp From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Thu Aug 18 22:32:22 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:32:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138029 >Matt: >So I guess we have an illustrator who's as good with orientation as >JKR is with numbers. The US cover of HBP also shows Dumbledore with a >healthy right hand, even though it is his right (wand) arm that is >supposed to be injured. (Yes, Dumbledore is also right-handed; the >narrator refers specifically to his "right" hand when he stands up at >the opening feast in HBP.) Apparently, there are at least two illustrators who show Dumbledore's right hand healthy. The cover for the German version of HBP is now on Amazon's .de web site and DD's right hand (holding a wand) looks fine. http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551566666.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From cat_kind at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 23:16:06 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:16:06 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138030 Mimbletonia: > Or - maybe- the person who places the locket in the cave has to die > as part of the magic? The real locket is already hidden at Grimauld > Place, and as the fake one enters the potion, RAB is killed, thus > ensuring its protection. - Maybe even along with several others to > make up the oceanful of inferi... > catkind: Hmm, but why would RAB bother going into the cave if he knew it'd kill him? I agree the real locket was hidden at Grimauld Place, but I don't think it was ever in the birdbath. LV: Here, Bella, I'll leave this locket at your Uncle's house, just pop it down the cave for me, there's a dear? (Bella at Spinner's End: The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious...) Locket was sitting at 12GP waiting for Bella to pick it up when RAB! Regulus stumbled on it - then when he switched it Bella, who'd never seen the original, didn't notice a thing. The replaced locket only makes sense to me if it was replaced *before* being put in the cave, and before being seen by someone who knew there was a locket but not which locket. Which would also remove the problem of self-refilling pensieves - what's the point of a pensieve that refills after the treasure is stolen? Just a thought. catkind From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 23:17:10 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:17:10 -0000 Subject: The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Dark Art attraction?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138031 > >>Valky: > I think to the necessary point, we agree. Take into account DD's > prodigious skill and intellect, Snape's wit and genius, and the > differences and similarities between Tom, Snape and DD, we can > probably conclude that DD trusts Snape *because* he knows him well > enough. > Betsy Hp: Yes, on this I agree, we do agree. Agreed? (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > >>Valky: > > Basically what I am saying is that DD *knows* something about > Snapes regard for James, he says it's *not* the same thing as > Sirius and Kreacher. BUT hang about, it does darn well look like > it is! > Betsy Hp: I think there *is* a difference in the level of contempt. Sirius was quite sure Kreacher presented no threat. His contempt was complete. Snape certainly thought James was a waste of space (who failed to protect his lady love?) and had a certain amount of contempt for him, but there was a level of respect there too. Snape did see that James could present a threat to him. As soon as James calls out in Snape's memory, Snape *moves*. He arms himself *immediately*. Or tries to anyway. And I don't think it's just because James tended to attack with a pack behind him (per Snape anyway). I have a feeling that if the two faced each other in an honest duel it be an interesting fight. And I think Snape recognized this. Sirus didn't see that at all about Kreacher. It's why his guard was down, I think. > >>Betsy Hp: > > > > I don't recall anything that suggested that Snape's respect was > > somehow *unhealthy*. > >>Valky: > ???? What about the gruesome pictures on the wall clearly > *glorifying* this superior power? Betsy Hp: Glorifying? They were certainly dramatic. (And Snape is all about the drama.) But I don't recall Snape going into some riff about how this power is so awsome and superior the students shouldn't even bother trying to fight it. Was Harry "glorifying" Voldemort when he spoke about him? > >>Valky: > And what about JKR's comments that DD deliberately keeps Snape > from the Dark Arts to avoid 'bringing out the worst in him' ? Betsy Hp: Isn't it rather obvious that she was speaking in a circular manner about the jinx on the job? She couldn't give away that the curse was real, but certainly, if Snape *was* given the job, that would be the last year he taught at Hogwarts, whatever happened. Isn't it the curse that brings out the "worst" in whomever is unlucky enough to be teaching that year? (Carol has an interesting post on this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137961 ) > >>Valky: > Yes I'll stick to my guns on this one, Snapes respect for the > power is *not* the same healthy respect that Harry has. > Betsy Hp: I think I'm going to continue with the thought that Snape actually has a *healthier* outlook than Harry on the dark arts. It's Harry who emotionally reaches for dark magic when he's upset. Snape seems to have grown out of it. But we can certainly disagree. :) > >>Valky: > > The mystery of Snape is and always has been about who he *really* > is, and this particular matter of Harry's internal friendship with > the HBP is crucial to that. > > I think that Harry and the Young HBP have a friendship, while > Snape and Harry have a very personal vendetta. These things havent > really met up within Harry yet, but I do wonder what will happen > when they do. Betsy Hp: I'm fascinated with this dichotomy! And I really wonder how it will all come together in the end. Especially when you consider the many hints that Harry is a bit more like Lily than James and the hints that Lily may well have been friends with young Severus. > >>Valky: > > I am saying that the older students were the leaders so > Snape did mostly what they told him to do, which probably kept him > generally out of strife. It was after they all had left Hogwarts > and Snape was alone that he ventured out in the night after Lupin > and almost got himself killed. This is what I mean by the kind of > trouble Snape gets himself in left to his own devices. I am saying > that DD kept his little bird Snape in a "moral" prison, locked him > up just like Sirius and Harry and to anyone else he knew was in > for certain death if he didn't. Snape left to his own devices > would simply get himself killed. Betsy Hp: Oooh, I *totally* disagree here. You cannot have a spy that you don't trust to handle themselves while on their own. I think that's a basic principle. Because things so often change out in the field and if Snape couldn't think for himself, couldn't make good decisions for himself and the Order then he'd be worse than useless to Dumbledore. Especially a spy of his caliber. He wasn't just an informant. He actively worked against Voldemort while appearing to support him. I'd also add that if the Slytherin gang had really left Snape to his own devices Snape may never have been recruited by Voldemort. (Total canonless guess on my part, but I really think Snape was actively recruited.) > >>Betsy Hp: > > Are you talking the first time around, or the second? Because I'm > > not sure if young Snape *was* a most favored servant the first > > time around. I think he was seen as highly talented, but not > > necessarily most favored. > >>Valky: > I am talking about the first time, and yes I do think Snape was > close enough to LV's favourite at this time, the point being that > in any case, he stopped giving Snape orders and sent him out to > work under almost his own volition as a spy. This is when Snape > found himself doing his worst again and taking the Prophecy back > to Voldemort, the one thing he really regrets according to DD. Betsy Hp: It seemed more to me that Snape was following a specific task laid out by Voldemort: get a job at Hogwarts. Trelawney spoke of Snape as a pushy young man in search of a job. I didn't get the impression that Snape was going on his own devices at all. > >>Valky: > Ok good arguments all, but this is how I see it to answer them. > First I think Snape had secured the DADA job before the Spinners > End Chapter, which you apparently agree with by saying that you > think it was the curse at work. So hereby we are seeing Snape the > DADA teacher in Spinners End, not Snape the potions master. Betsy Hp: Yes, I'm in total agreement here. > >>Valky: > Now I see that you disgree with me already that Snape was > attracted to the UV in an unhealthy way, but I do believe that > there was definitely an element of him being *tempted* into it by > his having been free to his own devices. For a start he *lies* > outright to Narcissa that he could be staying on at Hogwarts after > being the DADA teacher, unless Voldie *lifted* the curse for him? > Betsy Hp: Does Voldemort already know that Snape will be getting the DADA job? Somehow I doubt it. Dumbledore is only at this moment working on recruiting Slughorn to replace Snape. I don't think Snape would tip off Voldemort about Dumbledore's plans. So yes Snape lied to Narcissa (because I *do* think Snape knew about the curse) but he was doing so to cover for Dumbledore. I don't think Narcissa realized she was speaking to Snape the DADA professor. > >>Valky: > This riddle is deeper than it first seems, Snape taking the > Unbreakable Vow strictly because the curse is at work on him has no > less a problem than Snape doing it because he was tempted into > getting involved in a battle of Dark Arts. Betsy Hp: Well, yes, whatever the reason the Unbreakable Vow puts Snape in an awkward position to say the least. But I think motive is important here (as it generally is when it comes to Snape ) because if Snape took the Vow out of some macho need to test the boundries of some dark art, well he's quite a fool. But if the Vow, or more specifically, the last part of the Vow is the manifestation of the DADA curse then Snape's more of a victim here. And if Snape took the Vow to give himself room to help Draco (as I currently believe) then it's almost the opposite of an unhealthy interest in the dark arts that's motivating him. It's a form of love, which is a good thing, really. Betsy Hp From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 23:46:01 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:46:01 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses and Harry's judgement ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138032 > Betsy Hp: > One word: Fake!Moody. ] Fake Moody even fooled Mister Perception himself, Albus Dumbledore, so I wouldn't hold that against him too much. I think on the main he is normally able to judge good and bad sorts fairly competently. He saw right away what kind of person Draco was way back in the first book, and this was when he was desperate to make the friends he never had in the muggle world--and no, I don't think Draco is a poor little rich boy with bad friend making skills. Draco is a bad, egocentric little villian in the making. He might not be much of a killer but that seems to be failure of cowardice and sqeamishness than anything else. He certainly shares Death Eater ideology. > I'd also point out his general displeasure in having Luna and > Neville along for his great MoM raid in OotP (something about them > being the last DA members he'd choose?). And they end up serving > him quite well. He didn't want them because they weren't the best in the DA. Just because they did better than he thought doesn't mean a different set of aids wouldn't have done just as well, if not better. He was luckily they were as good as they were. I certainly wouldn't have picked Neville and Luna over a few other, more obviously competent members of the DA and I like both of them. > I'm not saying Harry is a complete dunder-head when it comes to > judging people (he does quite well with Scrimgeour). I hated the way he dealt with Scrimgeour. every time he he was asked if he was DD's man I was praying he would say that he wasn't DD's or the Ministry's, he was his own man. As much as I liked DD in the HBP I hated that Harry went back to trusting him implicitly--as if OOTP never happened. I would have liked to see Harry take a stronger position and not just roll over and play nice for the old guy. > Betsy Hp: > Well, there's Draco, and... erm... There's Draco. Has Harry > conversed with any other Slytherin? Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent, Flint, the nameless cheating bastard members of the Quiddich team, the house members who refused to stand for Cedric, and all the ones wearing Potter Stinks badges back during GoF. Harry hasn't exactly been treated well by any Slytherin, not just Draco. Why exactly should he think well of any of them? >And HBP showed us that Harry doesn't know Draco all that > well. He seemed rather shocked to find Draco crying in the boys > room. You have such rose colored glasses when it comes to Draco I don't even know where to begin! When I read that passage it seemed to me that Draco was crying about the stress of the situation and not out of any guilt that he might be experiencing. He had already nearly killed two people and we never the slightest bit of genuine remorse, IIRC. Maybe I would say Harry had misjudged Malfoy if the brat had showed any sense of sadness from what he was doing, but even his moment of weakness was self absorbed. And lets not forget that Draco is responsible for mutilating Bill, whatever other injuries done during the raid, Dumbledore's death, and nearly killing any number of students. Undoubtably the body count would have been higher had not three or four people not been dosed with Luck Potion. And I'm sure he disagreed with Dumbledore when Dumbledore > first told Draco that he wasn't a killer. I think DD is wrong. Draco is sqeamish, not moral, and there is a difference. >But I don't think Harry *ever* considered that Draco might > actually be a victim of Voldemort's. Draco is not a victim! he is a accomplice. He should be in prison. > Betsy Hp: > Just out of curiousty, Alla, who has Harry liked that you have not? Well, I can't answer for Alla, but I agree her so I am going to answer for myself. Molly, Hermione, and Ginny. I hate all three and they are HP's favorite gals. I also don't like Remus all that much either. Dumbledore is also occasionally on the bottom of the list. > Betsy Hp: > Oh ick. I hope not. I'm not sure how harmony is achieved when all > the instruments are taken away. Of course, I'm a fan of the house > system, so obviously, YMMV. :) I was disappointed that there wasn't more laying the ground work for house unity in this book. I think it is going to play a part in the story but for it to pay off emotionally it can't be thrust upon us suddenly. It's been foreshadowed somewhat but it hasn't been set up. and I'm sure she can set it up and pay it off in one book. I suspect she is going to try to and I will find it unsatisfying, just like I do the H/G plotline. phoenixgod2000, who would be posting more but is in the middle of moving, which is absolutely no fun at all. > Betsy Hp From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Aug 18 23:52:50 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:52:50 -0000 Subject: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138033 --- Hagrid wrote: > If Snape is a full DE, Snape will tell LV of the hunt for > Horcruxes now. > > If that happens, alarms would be set at each site to kill > Harry ... or they will be hidden more thoroughly than they > have for the last 50 years. I'm not sure how critical it is that Voldemort be kept in the dark about Harry's little quest. Certainly at the margins it would be preferable to keep it quiet for as long as possible: Voldemort could set traps for Harry or try to misdirect him; Voldemort could increase fortifications.... But, if you consider Voldemort's character, it seems likely that he has already done his level best to hide and fortify the horcruxes. Immortality was his principal goal in life for decades -- from when he left school 50 years before the events of the books to when he returned to "public life" perhaps 30 years later. And he's not the type to do a job halfway. So what can he do to thwart Harry? Voldemort can't keep the horcruxes (other than Nagini) with him. Doing so would defeat the whole purpose of the endeavor, which is to make the horcruxes inaccessible to anyone who comes after Voldemort. Ditto for trying to defend them personally. He could move them, but he presumably has already used the best hiding places available to him. Voldemort will not want to send Death Eaters to guard the horcruxes because he fundamentally does not trust them (and with good reason, viz. R.A.B.). Sending Death Eaters to shore up the fortifications has the same problem: it risks one of them finding out what is being hidden and using it as leverage. Is it possible that the hunt will remain secret much longer anyway? How long will Voldemort resist the temptation to tune into Webcam!Harry? (Thanks to Kathy for that image.) As someone else (apologies, I forget who) has posted recently, Harry's best hope is that Voldemort will underestimate him. A 16-year-old Hogwarts dropout does not, after all, seem terribly likely to overcome thirty years of hard work by The Greatest Wizard In The World. (And, by the way, if Snape is indeed working for Voldemort, we can be sure that he will not be building up the Dark Lord's respect for Harry's talents.) It seems to me that this may be the very reason that Dumbledore urges Harry to keep his mission secret. If the Ministry knew of the task and took it seriously, they would throw hundreds of apparently competent wizards at it; Voldemort might well feel threatened enough to do something about that. But so long as it is just Harry, perhaps Voldemort will stand pat, secure that he will manage to confront Harry long before he could possibly do away with all the horcruxes. -- Matt From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Aug 18 23:57:57 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:57:57 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Snape Distrusted by all Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138034 -aussie- I did a word search about Snape sleeping, and couldn't find anything in the posts. Seems as though NO-ONE trusted Snape. - Draco didn't trust him enough to wake him for the big event. - DD didn't tell him to stand guard with the OOTP at Hogwarts that night - Nor did DD tell him he may need Snape's Dark Arts remidies later even though the headmaster warned Harry about conditions of accompanying him. DD knew it was perillous and protected with Dark magic, so why not advise Snape? - DA members especially were wary of him after Harry gave directions to watch Snape and the Room of Requirements for Draco. - The Death Eaters themselves though. When Snape arrived, they let him through. When he stopped them from "Crucio"-ing Harry, they obeyed. When Bella visited, he turned his accusser into an assistant "You will need your wand, Bellatrix." Snape, who knew so much Dark Arts before going to Hogwarts and is called on instead of mdm Pomfrey to cure Dark curses, is a scary guy, even for the Death Eaters. Once LV is dead, Snape is possitioned to take over leadership of the DE. -aussie- From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Aug 19 00:00:53 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:00:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138035 --- Laura: > > Apparently, there are at least two illustrators who show > Dumbledore's right hand healthy. The cover for the > German version of HBP is now on Amazon's .de web site > and DD's right hand (holding a wand) looks fine. > > http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551566666.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg And that cover also shows Harry holding his wand in his left hand. Hopeless. -- Matt From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 19 00:51:44 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:51:44 -0000 Subject: Amelia Bones = RAB? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138036 I've not been keeping up with all the posts here so this theory may have already been discussed, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on this. R.A.B - could this be Amelia Bones? My reasoning is that as she was the Head of Magical Law Enforcement, the 'R' could be some sort of title (a bit like 'PC' for a police constable). Amelia Bones was murdered, probably by LV himself (as stated by Fudge in chapter 1). Why would LV carry out the deed personally, unless it was a significant enemy of his. If Amelia Bones had stolen the horcrux locket and LV found out about it, then he would have reason to hunt her down himself. If the above is true then could this mean Amelia Bones was a secret Death Eater? There is some sense to this in that the DEs have spies in the Ministry of Magic so its very possible. She could also have been the one to have put Herbert Chorley under the Imperius curse. Thoughts on this anyone? Auria From prep0strus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 01:03:41 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:03:41 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses and Harry's judgement ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138037 With thanks for the praise given to my snipping technique earlier, I've decided with this post to wipe the slate clean - not of ideas, simply of words. I'm not sure I could respond clearly amongst the posts of everyone else, so, while understanding everyone else may continue the discussion in a snip-happy environment, I'm going to try to express some of the thoughts I've had about what I've read here. I'll try to recap the expressed opinions of some of the discussion topics in as superficial and disrespectful a manner that I can. So, in the order that they come to mind... Draco: Evil, or ok guy? Side of good? Misjudged by us? Are we tainted by Harry's opinion? Is he 'The Good Slytherin'? Is he the son Voldemort never had? IMO? Draco's a bad guy. No doubt about it. First class jerk. Is he evil, or will he turn out to be evil? That remains to be seen. DD certainly think he can be saved. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be a 'good' Slytherin, and does not become a Death Eater. But, even if he does, this doesn't make him nice, or likeable, and I don't think that's simply because we see him from Harry's perspective. Yeah, he and Harry have a rivalry, and we see him from Harry's view. But he's also been taught rather faulty values from his parents. He rags on Ron before we know much about either because he's poor. He's what amounts to racist in these books, hating Muggleborns and halfbloods. He's been raised in a family that admires and worships Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and shows no remorse at the harming of his fellow students in CoS. Do I like Draco as a person? No. Do I like him as a character? Actually, more and more. He's being fleshed out, becoming interesting - but I'll never really LIKE him. The same thing goes for Snape. The discussions on him are intense and endless, but I'll never like Snape. His character could go in different directions - evil, good, redeemed already, will be redeemed, falls somewhere in between, etc. He could wind up being the most interesting character in the series. But let's not forget - he's a jerk. A lot can be because of how he sees Harry because of how he knew James... but he's also the most biased teacher in the school. He's nasty to students like Hermione & Neville. And, he doesn't really seem to have a side that we don't see. Even in the face of Dumbledore's fun and acceptance, sullen exasperation appears to be his response. Harry's point of view. That seems to be something we're looking at a lot - how does it affect our point of view of a character? Well, I'd say, a lot - but it's supposed to. Even if we dismiss what JKR says in her interviews, and stick to book canon, this is Harry's story. We're SUPPOSED to see it from his perspective. We're supposed to like him, to mostly agree with him. And that doesn't mean he's always right, or never takes a wrong step, but for the most part, his eyes are the eyes JKR wants us to see the world with. And there are times when we don't - the first chapters of HBP. These are the times we see characters through narration that is not tainted by Harry's presence. If JKR wanted us to see 'more' to a character, we would. Now, that doens't mean characters might not have more, but unless we see it in Book 7, that's how the character is. It's fun to speculate and see what lies behind the books, but if we want to stick to canon, we need to stick to what has been shown us. And some things would be subjective for Harry - Ron might not be the most pleasant person if you weren't his best friend. He has his own preconceived ideas and prejudices. But we also see that Ron, and his family, are strongly against Death Eaters, against Muggle/Muggleborn prejudices, and for Dumbledore. Compare this to what we've seen of just about every Slytherin we've been shown. Draco revels in his Death Eater lineage, rejoices in the pain of Muggles and Muggleborns. In the company of all Slytherins, it's acceptable and accepted to be pro-Voldemort. Does that mean every Slytherin believes that? No, but it sure shows where the strength and popular opinion lies. And we haven't been shown the Slytherins who don't. Slughorn was who all this started with. A Slytherin who I firmly to believe on the side of good - and not one who even had a tendency toward evil, but managed to overcome it the way many of us expect Snape & Draco too. He doesn't even have the pureblood prejudice. But this doesn't make him likeable, and I don't think that's just because of Harry. Harry didn't have a reason to prejudge Slughorn too much anyway - a friend of Dumbledore's (though, we have seen that backfire - Crouch!Moody), who liked his mom, who was open to Muggleborns... but Harry sees quickly that Slughorn is interested in himself, in his 'connections', his influence. And quickly disgards those who can't add to his web of worthiness. I don't think this is us being deceived by Harry's view. I think this is how JKR wants us to see Slughorn. He's not an evil guy, but I think he still has enough negative Slytherin qualities to make him unlikeable. And, in my earlier posts, this is what I was lamenting - a Slytherin who is likeable. Not one who is important to the plot, or who will help the good guys, or who 'brings balance to the force, i mean hogwarts'. i want a slytherin who is just a nice guy. a nice guy who's crafty and has pureblood, or who is ambitious for himself and his friends but in a really nice way. I dunno. a NICE Slytherin. and while JKR certainly believes in the houses, and how they're all necessary, and I think we will see members of each house work to defeat Voldemort in 7... she hasn't shown us a nice Slytherin. They're out there, I guess. but she hasn't shown us one. And that's where my acceptance of the house system breaks down. I liked the houses a lot - i like order, and categories, and seeing different sides of them, i think it's interesting, and useful. But I think it just hasn't been used to its potential. The houses are not monolythic - in the house we see most, Gryffindor, it can't be - we need traits from all types of people to make our team work. But we can see the courage inherent in them, the string that ties them together. I just wish the other houses could have been given a bit more. The making Hufflepuff the house for, 'the rest' really makes me sad for them, and want to change the whole house system. I mean, caring about loyalty, cool. Saying she'll just teach anybody who isn't brave, smart, or Slytherin... it makes them seem like a lower class. When RL people think about being sorted, how many want to be Hufflepuff? We see some cool Hufflepuffs, like Cedric, but that hat song still grates on me. The same for Slytherin - I want to know how the song that states it's for those whose blood is purest can be defended. Snape & Riddle, two of the most prominent Slytherins we have - not pureblooded. And, so, going back to what I said originally, JKR has made Slytherin the house of those who are mean. Probably evil, if not evil, than mean. For 5 books we had Draco - the meanest bully in school, and his goon buddies, one of the greatest evil wizards and most of his evil lackeys, and the teacher who was evil, now might be redeemed, but is always a jerk. Now, in Book 6, we're thrown a character who, by all appearances, is not evil, or an obviously bully/jerk, but is still fairly unpleasant. and it appears that this is to be our 'good slytherin'. Slughorn gets quite a lot of credit simply for being the least objectionable Slytherin we've come in contact with. Let's not forget how the houses react to each other - most of the time we see Gryffindor up against Slytherin - the headiest rivalry in the school. And who do Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff almost always back up (except when it's Harry-bashing time?) - Gryffindor. The way they play Quiddich isn't just something we believe because we see it from Harry. They're brutal and mean. And while the Good & Evil setup works early on, especially in children's books, I really feel we should've seen more now if each of these houses truly is supposed to be equal, important, and respectable. Wow. This post meandered quite a bit from what it was supposed to be. Sorry for the length, and for any perceived snarkiness. Maybe your comments will help me to better define my thoughts. :) ~Prep0strus, who, no matter how many times he says it, still is more focused on the fact that Lee Jordan wasn't in HBP than on any other aspect of the series. From oiboyz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 01:14:28 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:14:28 -0000 Subject: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138038 > lealess: > From the little we see in the DADA class, Snape is actually teaching > the students a valuable skill, not indulging in a sadistic desire to > belittle them, nor falling uncontrollably under the spell of the Dark > Arts. He is teaching defense, after all. You touch on a point I'm not sure has been discussed much: the sad lack of Snape-teaching-DADA scenes in HBP. We waited six books for this and all we get is one class on non-verbal spells? The omission is especially glaring when you think of the interesting scenes that *could* have been written. Snape teaching Harry a subject he's actually good at for a change... I think JKR has said she enjoys writing Snape, and she must have been perfectly aware of the possibilities latent in Snape being the DADA professor, so I can't help but suspect that she had specific reasons for deliberately *not* showing us much of Snape teaching. Maybe she wanted to keep us guessing at his motives, and if she showed his classes we'd be able to tell whether he was on the good or bad side by seeing how much effort he put into preparing the kids to fight the Dark Arts. Or else we didn't get many DADA scenes because there wasn't room for them. Snape showed up in lots of other ways in the this book-- the Spinner's End chapter, fetching Harry on the first day of school, his interactions with Draco, Slughorn's party, Trelawny's mention of him, Dumbledore's mentions of him, and of course the HBP textbook. So perhaps JKR cut down on the actual teaching scenes just because Snape had enough page time already. I can't help but regret it, though. -oiboyz From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 01:30:15 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:30:15 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest -- Call for supplemental Minions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138039 Hello All, As stated in an earler post, the HBP Prediction Contest is in its final phase. Through the arduous work of the Minion Horde, we have winnowed the best 18 finalists out of over 230 entries. However, I would like to get some more opinions on which entry is truly the best of the best, so I'm calling for Supplemental Minions. If you volunteer, you will receive a long email comprised of 18 entries. You just tell me which one is the best and which others are deserving of honorable mentions. No maths are involved. If, however, you would like a copy of the Ruthless Rubric in order to understand the preliminary grading process, I can send that to you. Ruthlessly, TK -- TigerPatronus __________________________________________________ TK Consulting Technical writing and editing instruction and services for pharmaceutical and medical device businesses. www.consultingtk.com __________________________________________________ From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 01:35:58 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:35:58 -0000 Subject: Have I just transfigured out the Horcrux!Locket? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138040 Jujube wrote: >On a personal note, I do, of course, regret that you felt any sort >of personal (of you) v. impersonal (of ideas) criticism in any of my >posts; none was of course intended and I apologize for any >discomfort you felt. At the same time, I must also add that I feel >you perhaps have done me a disservice by coloring my comments with >that lens. Saraquel: Hi Jujube. Thank you for your post and your interpretation and understanding of mine. I did always feel that your intentions were not personally critical, I also apologise for any discomfort that my comments gave you. Having said that, I trust that there is mutual respect and personally feel that the conversation is now finished: I hope you agree. So to business: I think you made a good case for Sirius being wrong, and I was aware that a case could be made (hence my comment about exactly that) but I wasn't going to do my theory-detractors work for them! If the cave problem can be solved, it might well work out the way you have described. Although, I must admit, the more I argue for the transfigured Horcrux theory, the more fond of it I feel, and that it could be a real possibility. Kizor has just posted something along the same lines (He emailed me to say that when he posted it he wasn't aware of my posts) so obviously the idea is out there. This is a quote from an answer to his post by Richard >This is, I think, very appropriate, as if it really is a horcrux, >and the person who finds it is taken in by the ruse, the World is >left with a surviving horcrux, and thus a surviving little lord >Voldemort (little thanks to the diminished soul, spread about and >partially destroyed). I've also had a thought something along these lines, but with a different theory. Harry being in the situation where he thinks he can't find the locket!horcrux, could ratchet up the tension quite a lot. Now, imagine him being forced to meet Voldemort for the final showdown, knowing he hasn't destroyed the locket!horcrux, but having it in his pocket. He's convinced he's going to fail, but actually succeeds . Yes, Jujube, I can see your frown, I agree, I will speculate no more :-) Now to the Snape angle. Jujube wrote: >It's not a stretch to imagine that a Snape interested in what he >could gain for himself would work with a DE (here using the DE to >his own aims), to do the same thing. > >I'm not sure how it would play out for Evil Snape--but I've also not >taken that view of him so I haven't really put much effort into >reading the books that way. Saraquel: Funnily enough, I was thinking about this last night, whilst responding to another post and wrote this >Any theory that >puts Snape in the Cave, really has to do a LOT of explaining, and we >have OFH!ESE!Snape for sure. You have probably picked up the thread, it starts with this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137926 and there are some replies which start to address these issues. The reason why I say that this would give us, out for himself, ever so evil Snape is because 1) He steals the horcrux, either intending to destroy it or to provide himself with some leverage over Voldemort. Both reasons giving us, Snape hates Voldemort. 2) He has failed to tell DD about his trip to the cave and the fact that he is in possession of, or has destroyed one of Voldemort's horcruxes. Evil all round really! I am assuming of course, that Regulus was used by Snape and not the other way round ? that would be totally OOC. Jujube wrote: >But not every detail, or perceived omission of detail, in the book >is significant. The trick to figuring out what will happen in book 7 >is to figure out just which details are significant. To seize on the >ones which are not, on the pretext that every thing must mean >something, is, IMO, as detrimental as deciding that everything in >the book is literally as it seems and there is no puzzle to be put >together. I take your point about the suggestion that DD does not reject the potion as not Voldemort's. However, I do think that JKR has deliberately made DD make comments on the nature of the obstacles in the cave to indicate that all is not as it seems. You may not agree, but I think they are significant. Whether, of course, the not-as-it- seems is a transfigured horcrux, a pointer to Snape's involvement, or some other reason yet to be discovered (or not as the case may be) is at the heart of our discussion. Jujube wrote: >I am not aware of the requirement that states that in order to >engage in conversation about a theory offered to the list, one must >have a fully-fledged theory in the wings waiting to replace it. >Indeed, although my theories about the last unidentified Horcrux >and the person who does magic late in life were questioned, I never >required that the person questioning me be able to float a full- >fledged theory as an entrance fee. I'm happy to have my theories >questioned--it's the only way for me to think about what could be >wrong and therefore allows me the opportunity to revise them >accordingly. Saraquel: That was just me being cheeky, Jujube. I look forward to any thoughts that you do have about the cave, though. Amicalement Saraquel Who is going to have to take a break for a while, RL is calling in the form of finding a job and earning some money!! From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 01:38:06 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:38:06 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138041 Hickengruendler: I must say, that I do not like what your post implies, namely that Harry/Hermione is the pairing for the "deeper" readers, while Ron/Hermione is the one for the superficial ones. Maybe I misunderstood you, and if that's the case, than I apologize, but it sounds to me as if you are saying, that Harry/Hermione would be the literary better choice, because Ron's and Hermione's feelings for each other were to obvious, with which I do not agree at all. Now me: *Sigh* I don't really fancy getting into it to be honest, but my point was that when it comes to Snape, it appears to me from the evidence in HBP and the way she dealt with the shipping suplots that the most straightforward answer is probably the correct one. That's all. I think this issue is far too loaded to try and explain myself any further without inviting further criticism. I never suggested H/Hr would have been the better literary choice; that's for everyone to decide for themselves. I merely said it would have been the more subtley developed one (ergo the author's *own* reference to `anvil- like' clues). My comparison was between the way the subplots were developed and the techniques used and NOT with the relative merits of each choice. I understand that it is not a perfect comparison (and I take your point about teenage hormones) but aspects of the situation dynamics are similar ? particularly with regards to clues potentially pointing to ambiguities or contradictions in character motivation that are not intended to be taken seriously or are only there to muddy the truth or keep us guessing. I hope that has clarified it. Hickengruendler: His storyline, OTOH, is all about concealing his true loyalties. Here the "subtle" explanation (if you want to call it that) is IMO much likelier to come true, because he is a spy (no matter for which site) an Occlumancy experts and someone who is generally able to conceal his true motivations and aims. He either fooled Dumbledore or Voldemort or both for years, which surely speaks for his abilities as an actor. Therefore the comparison with romantic feelings of teenagers doesn't really fit, since the one has hardly anything to do with the other. Now me: >From what I've read of JK's interview transcripts regarding Snape, it seems to me that these logical holes that get in the way of Evil! Snape are just that ? holes. And, like I said before, for me it bears too much resemblance to other logical holes in character behaviour and motivation that I had thought to explain away by coming up with alternative theories about other plot developments. I think the ambiguity in Snape's character has essentially been leading to this point in HBP to surprise us (what's more surprising than Harry being right about Snape after all these years?). I would not be surprised however, if there is similar backlash, once that has been proven post- Book 7, by those who wanted and thought they'd found something else in the books. Again, just my opinion and I'd love to be proven wrong because frankly I find Evil!Snape more than a little boring. Sienna From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 01:43:01 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:43:01 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138042 Saraquel wrote: All quotes from UK ED Before he drinks the potion DD says to Harry: Ch 26, p532 "I should have said, he would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island, He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." vmonte: Ok, if we go along with Dumbledore's comments then the potion is there to alert Voldemort that someone has found out about the horcruxes. Voldemort wants to know how they found out, and who was responsible for leading them there (well at least this is what I would want to know). So my question is how does Voldemort find out this information? I mean he obviously was not alerted of the cave break in when RAB stole the horcrux, and I think I know the reason why. The locket is still intact. Voldemort doesn't know yet that someone found one of his horcruxes because the locket was not destroyed. When Harry finds it and destroys it, Voldemort will know because he will feel himself becoming more human. That is when Voldemort will then go to the cave to see what the potion reveals. Valky now: I agree with houyhnhnm's objection, that it is unlikely Voldie would be alerted to the cave when the locket was destroyed. However, disregarding some of the means for just a moment, I really actually do like the suggestion that the Basin fills with the memories of the person who comes for the locket so that Voldie can see the reason that they are there when/if he returns after they have been there. A syllogism.. Assume one and two and three are TRUE. 1. LV would keep the drinker alive "long enough" to get the information out of him. 2. After the potion has been drunk the drinker dies unless he gets water. 3. If the drinker get water and lives the Inferi attack and the drinker dies anyway. If these are true then it is also true that the time it takes for the drinker to drink the potion *is* long enough to get the information. Hence a Legilimensing potion is in the Basin. And it is quite possible that the potion that DD drinks contains the legilimensed memories of R.A.B. So to speculate on the things that DD saw whilst drinking the potion, they seem to me like the Memories of someone being punished by Lord Voldemort. A DE? In particular there is the later parts where DD's voice says, No not that... I'll do anything... followed by what is apparently torture. To me this seems like someone being crucio'ed. I was going to write a whole lot more but I am drawing a blank now so I'll take a break. Valky Who is thinking it's all really adding up to Regulus, whether we like it or not. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 01:45:42 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:45:42 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138043 Catkind: The replaced locket only makes sense to me if it was replaced *before* being put in the cave, and before being seen by someone who knew there was a locket but not which locket. Which would also remove the problem of self-refilling pensieves - what's the point of a pensieve that refills after the treasure is stolen? Marianne S: I have been thinking along these same lines myself. Although, my thought has been that Regulus was sent to hide the Horcrux and, upon realizing exactly what this meant, destroyed the real Horcrux within the Slytherin locket and planted the fake. However, I see a lot more holes in what I was thinking than what you wrote. If Regulus had destroyed the piece of soul in the locket, I think he could still have planted the real locket just like Dumbledore was able to wear the real Horcrux ring after he destroyed the piece of soul. So, I love your theory that perhaps Bella planted the fake Horcrux without realizing it was a fake. Nevertheless, I do see a point of a refillable pensieve. Perhaps Voldemort does not expect anyone to actually make it through drinking the entire potion, so it magically refills itself so that no one will suspect that someone may have been killed in the midst of drinking it. Another theory is that R.A.B. could have made the potion refill so, if Voldemort were to do a rudimentary check on it, he'd be none the wiser. Furthermore, I have been pondering this for quite a while... I wonder if anyone else thinks that what Dumbledore is "experiencing" when he ingests the potion is a vision of the DE bloodbath that will occur at the school... unless he goes back and has Snape fulfill the promise they both know about -- to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore does not fear death for himself... it is but another journey... but he does not wish harm on any of his students. I believe that he and Snape have known all year that a time would come where Dumbledore would have to sacrifice himself and have Snape perform the "murder" or the consequences would be dire indeed. Marianne S. who is also wondering what someone will find if they DO open the locket that is/was at Grimmauld Pl. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 02:00:34 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:00:34 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Saraquel wrote: > All quotes from UK ED > Before he drinks the potion DD says to Harry: > Ch 26, p532 "I should have said, he would not want immediately to > kill the person who reached this island, He would want to > keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to > penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, > why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that > Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." > > vmonte: > So my question is how does Voldemort find out this information? I > mean he obviously was not alerted of the cave break in when RAB >stole > the horcrux, . > > Valky now: > I agree with houyhnhnm's objection, that it is unlikely Voldie would > be alerted to the cave when the locket was destroyed. Saraquel: Being alerted to the fact that the horcrux has gone is a problem. But in my original, original post, which the above quote was snipped from, I speculate that both veritaserum *and* Draft of Living Death are in the potion. Hence, if Valky does regular checks on his horcruxes, (which who knows, could be a reason for someone to know about the cave, having followed him - but how you follow someone who presumably is apparating I don't know! Problem still not solved :-)) then he would find a body in suspended animation lying on the ground next to the potion. If that person was alone, they would never have got to the end of the potion, and presumably not tried to get the water. However, the problem with this is that, when DD is revived, he is no longer experiencing whatever he is experiencing. So if Voldemort revived the sleeping beauty, he would have missed the action. Round in circles - > Valky > Who is thinking it's all really adding up to Regulus, whether we like > it or not. Saraquel: Transfigured!Horcrux anyone - OK, but I'm rather fond of that theory now :-) Saraquel From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 02:25:32 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:25:32 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses and Harry's judgement ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138045 > Betsy Hp: But I don't think Harry *ever* considered that Draco might > actually be a victim of Voldemort's. Alla: I am with Phoenixgod - Draco started this adventure as being Voldemort's accomplice, NOT a victim, IMO. He planned assacination attempt because he wanted glory and even accused Snape of trying to steal his glory. > Betsy Hp: > Yeah, that's a theory of mine. Voldemort took the worst aspects of > Slytherin and twisted them to his own use: recruiting Death Eaters. > Just as he was hoping to do with the entire school of Hogwarts when > he started working on getting the DADA job. > > > >>Alla: > > I think this quote from HBP contradicts it. > > "He was placed in Slytherin House almost the moment that the > > Sorting Hat touched his head" - HBP, p.360. > > I interpret this quote that Tom's values when he just came to > > Hogwarts were already very similar to what Salazar looking for in > > his students. > > Betsy Hp: > I think this quote counters your theory: > > "You'll be Gryffindor like her, I suppose? Yes, it usually goes in > families." (HBP scholastic p.70) > > Tom *was* Slytherin's last surviving heir, after all. Alla: I am sorry I don't understand. I was saying that I interpret my quote as the idea that Slytherin House values equal Tom's values, that he did not HAVE to twist anything, Slytherin House was already twisted enough to accept eleven year old bully with psychopathic tendencies. Could you clarify how the quote you brought up contradicts my argument, please? > Betsy Hp: > Yes, Draco is plotting to kill someone. That's correct. Harry was > right about that. But he's being *forced* to do it by a mad-man > willing to kill his entire family if Draco fails. That changes the > picture somewhat. At least, in my opinion. Alla: No, he was not, or at least we don't have a definite proof( unless I forgot something) that Draco was blackmailed right from the beginning - because we have Draco bragging to his fellow Slytherins about glory he would receive after fulfilling the task. To me it looked like LATER in the year, MUCH later when Draco started chickening out, THEN Voldemort told him that he would do something bad to his parents, unless Draco does what he was told to do. > > > >>Alla: > > Ooo, I so with Preposterous here. I want a Slytherin I would like > > and I have not met one yet, which I fully like > > > > Betsy Hp: > Just out of curiousty, Alla, who has Harry liked that you have not? Alla: I am not that fond of Hermione when she is by herself, without Harry or Ron. And I think that Harry likes her A LOT, don't you agree? In fact, if she was not friends with the boys, believe me I would have liked her even less. > Betsy Hp: > Oh ick. I hope not. I'm not sure how harmony is achieved when all > the instruments are taken away. Of course, I'm a fan of the house > system, so obviously, YMMV. :) > Alla: Which instruments? people from all Houses will be there, but they would be able to integrate more and achieve much needed unity, IMO. Phoenixgod: Harry hasn't exactly been treated well by any Slytherin, not > just Draco. Why exactly should he think well of any of them? Alla: Exactly, Phoenixgod, thank you. Phoenixgod: > And lets not forget that Draco > is responsible for mutilating Bill, whatever other injuries done > during the raid, Dumbledore's death, and nearly killing any number of > students. Alla: Oh, you know, I have not even realised that. Indeed, Draco IS accomplice to Dumbledore's murder despite the fact that he lowered his wand. Because if he did not let DE into Hogwarts into first place, maybe Snape would not have killed Dumbledore. Oh, but this is only valid if Snape did not really want to kill Dumbledore, right? Maybe not, because in any event Draco gave Snape a perfect possibility. Hm, my head hurts. Prep0strus wrote: >> Harry sees quickly that Slughorn is interested in himself, in his > 'connections', his influence. And quickly disgards those who can't > add to his web of worthiness. > > I don't think this is us being deceived by Harry's view. I think this > is how JKR wants us to see Slughorn. He's not an evil guy, but I > think he still has enough negative Slytherin qualities to make him > unlikeable. Alla: Ooooo, you hit it, PrepOstrus. That IS why I don't like Slughorn much. I don't like discarding away people whom you judge that they cannot help you in your ambitions. And YES I speculate this is the quality of Slytherin House which JKR does not like much either, besides "purebloodism" - not simply ambition, but desire to succeed not by your own talent, but by using other people and if necessary hurting them in the process. Just my opinion, Alla. From auburnvixen at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 02:15:01 2005 From: auburnvixen at hotmail.com (ponygirl_auburn_vixen) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:15:01 -0000 Subject: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138046 Matt wrote: > (And, by the way, if > Snape is indeed working for Voldemort, we can be sure that he will not > be building up the Dark Lord's respect for Harry's talents.) This struck a chord with me. Even if Snape is *not* working for Voldemort, it's very useful to the Order to have LV underestimate Harry's abilities - is it not? SS never turns down an opportunity to belittle Harry's abilities in front of others... In Ootp, didn't he tell Umbridge (in front of Draco and the other Inquisitorial Squad members when they were holding Harry and the DA gang in her office) that he had always thought Harry didn't belong at Hogwarts because he had no talent? Surely, Draco and Co. would gleefully have spread around this insult to Harry, both at school and to their families. IMO, these insults that become reports/rumors back to LV are a great way for SS to keep his cover while allowing LV to keep believing that Harry is no match for him (LV). Sorry if I got the reference wrong, I'm too tired to look it up right now. - Auburn, who is becoming more and more convinced that SS is "a bad guy on the good side" From merpsiren at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 23:33:54 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (merpsiren) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:33:54 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138047 Okay here are more of my explanation... Would Voldemort really trust ANYONE whose family he had murdered right before that person's eyes? My take on this... Voldemort demands sacrifices and punishes his Death Eaters without consideration of what the DE may think of him in return. Voldemort expects everyone will fear him and that he can control their behavior and actions by this power of fear. So, if he killed Snape's family and "spared" Snape's life, Voldemort would see himself as showing mercy and expect Snape to learn that further disloyalty will be punished with Snape's life. Voldemort would believe this to be a strong enough threat to keep Snape in line since death is what Voldemort fears for himself. Voldemort thinks nothing of asking the Malfoy's to allow Draco to take his place as a Death Eater. Narcissa recognizes that Draco is being set up as a punishment for the actions of Lucius and yet Voldemort doesn't fear that this request will push the Malfoys away from him, but demands that they make the sacrifice that is expected of them. Bellatrix Lestrange declares in the chapter "Spinner's End" that she would be proud to offer up her sons (if she had any) to the service of the Dark Lord. Kris From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 02:40:15 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:40:15 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory (why Ron & Hermione now know Harry's secrets) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138048 Vivian: > When Harry finds it and destroys it, Voldemort > will know because he will feel himself > becoming more human. That is when Voldemort will > then go to the cave > to see what the potion reveals. houyhnhnm: "Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?" Harry asked, ignoring the portraits. "A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Valdemort is now so immersed in evil and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss...but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy." (HBP, AE, p. 507-508) vmonte again: I think that the cave horcrux is safe guarded in a different way from the rest of the horcruxes. There would be no point in Dumbledore mentioning that Voldemort would want to know who was responsible and how they penetrated the cave if this information could not travel back to Voldemort!(?) When the locket is discovered by Harry and destroyed, Voldemort will somehow know--JMO. (By the way, this will probably be the last item to be found and destroyed by Harry--except for his scar horcrux.) Also, I think that now that Ron and Hermione know about what is going on they will both figure out some key facts. The real reason why JKR didn't let Hermione and Ron in on the prophecy and other key information (like Snape's Worst Memory) is because they will use these pieces of info to figure out some key things about Snape. Snape's Worst Memory Super smart Snape takes an exam in which question 10 is about werewolfs and he doesn't automatically realize that Lupin fits the description? Even after wondering where Lupin was going every month? Come on. Even Hermione figures this out when Snape gives the same essay as homework to Lupin's class. Harry will show Hermione and Ron his memories of what happened in the cave, on the tower, the prophecy memory, and of Snape's Worst Memory. Hermione will then figure out what Snape is all about. Sorry, but I really think that JKR is setting Hermione up to out smart Snape. Hermione was able to figure out Snape's potion puzzle in SS/PS because it was a logic test, and I think she will be the one who will out wit him in book 7. Ron will figure out how Dumbledore uses the penseive in his strategic planning and become a good strategist for the Order. Harry will sacrifice himself for the greater good. Page 417 HBP "...Harry's imagination zoomed into overdrive, rapidly constructing a scene in which Ginny, weeping over his life-less form, confessed her feelings of deep attraction to him while Ron gave them his blessing..." But Ginny will do something to alter this ending. JMO---Vivian From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 02:54:04 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:54:04 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's (or is it Tom Sr.'s?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138049 merpsiren wrote: > As for why it is Snape's memory in the cave... (Allie asked why would someone fill the basin with Snape's memory.) Carol responds: My apologies for the merciless snipping, but I imagine that anyone who has been following this thread is familiar with the essential points of your theory (and, if not, he or she can discover them by going up thread). Also, I'm replying to the thread in general and not to any specific person. Much as I enjoy discussing Snape (and it's amazing how many subplots and themes in the story relate to him), I don't think he is involved in the locket horcrux sequence (except as the person who might have saved Dumbledore had the cave visit not ironically coincided with Draco's letting the Death Eaters into the school). That bad timing, in my view, relates to the DADA curse, which I discussed at length in message 13791 (which apparently no one read because it's too darn long): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137961 At any rate, regarding the potion/poison in the cave: I proposed some time back, and it seems that others agree, that the container is a kind of ancient Pensieve and that the potion, which resembles the thoughts in Dumbledore's Pensieve in its consistency and an AK in its color, is a kind of poisoned memory that causes simultaneous physical agony and mental anguish, to the point that the person who is forced to drink it wants to die. I think most of us agree on this interpretation, at least in a general way. The chief questions are whose memory it is (assuming that it's a real memory) and what, if anything, Snape had to do with it. To answer the second question first: Except for his being a young Death Eater at roughly the same time as Regulus Black (R.A.B.?), I don't see any canon-based connection between Snape and this Horcrux. (There could well be a connection between Regulus's death and Severus's "return to our side," which occurred at roughly the same time, but post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy and much as I would like to believe that Regulus's death drove Severus to repent joining the DEs and revealing the prophecy, I don't see the canon for it yet.) There is even less canonical evidence (I would say nothing beyond a remark in an interview about married teachers, which could at best be regarded as semicanonical) for Snape ever having married and having a child, that they were both murdered, and that that memory somehow ended up in the Horcrux Pensieve. As for Snape's having something to do with creating the potion/poison, as some posters (I can't remember who) have proposed, how could he have done so? He was eleven years old when Voldemort returned and started recruiting followers, and by that time, Voldemort had long since created most if not all of his Horcruxes. The locket and cup were the third and fourth that he acquired, back when he was not long out of Hogwarts and Severus Snape had not even been born. Surely Voldemort had created and hidden the locket Horcrux between that time and his interview with Dumbledore for the DADA position, which occurred when Severus was about three years old (and initiated the DADA curse). I see no reason why he would have hidden the locket Horcrux a second time or brewed a new thought/memory potion some eighteen years later using Snape's memories. And I doubt very much that Snape, protective as he is of his memories, would have brewed such a potion himself, however unlikely it might be that anyone would experience the memory and survive to reveal it. I think that Voldemort brewed the memory potion (which I see as magically self-renewing rather than disappearing after R.A.B. or his house elf drank it and having to be rebrewed) soon after he made the Horcrux (between about 1950 and 1963 by my very rough calculations) and the memory is his own, except that IMO he is the person administering the Crucio and obeying the tortured request to "KILL ME!" We know that he killed his father and grandparents, three people whom he hated, and that he especially hated his father. We know that they died without a mark on them (typical for the AK) but that they wore terrified expressions (GoF, "The Riddle House"). We know that even as a boy, Tom Riddle liked to cause pain and punish people. It seems to me almost a given that he would have tortured the Riddles before he killed them. He would have especially enjoyed making his father watch helplessly while he Crucio'd his grandparents. He would also, no doubt, have revealed his identity, which they could not question given his resemblance to his father, and perhaps confronted his "filthy Muggle father" with the crime of deserting his pregnant mother and abandoning him to live in a Muggle orphanage instead of a mansion. "Don't hurt them!" fits perfectly with this scenario. So does "I know I did wrong!" I think Tom Crucio'd his grandparents, perhaps putting a freezing spell on his father to make him watch helplessly, then Crucio'd his father, who couldn't endure the pain and begged for death. This memory did not need to be extracted from anyone's head. It was his own, as witness and torturer. But anyone experiencing it from drinking the poisoned memory would experience it from the perspective of the tortured Muggle father. (Alternatively, as a Legilimens, he might have been able even at sixteen to extract a memory from the head of a dead Muggle, or even extract it before he cast the AK, but I see these as less probable alternatives.) I meant to propose this idea in a single paragraph as a simple, canon-based alternative to what I see as a very speculative theory. Instead I've turned it into another long Carol post. I'm sorry! Carol, hoping that someone will slog through the DADA curse post (link above) and respond to it. The key parts relate to Quirrell, Lupin, and Snape, exactly the parts that didn't get answered. From kjones at telus.net Fri Aug 19 03:06:47 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:06:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's over, Snape is evil (+a Horcrux Thought) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43054CC7.4000908@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138050 Marianne S. wrote: > Shylah wrote: > > > the logical next step for evil > > Snape is to have a few words > > with LV, and book 7 open with LV > > squirreling all his Horcruxes back, > > doing a 'head' count and plotting > > to recover what was lost by making more. > > Marianne S: > I believe that this IS the logical next step for evil Snape, which is also > why I believe Snape is NOT evil and will not be taking that step. Marianne S Kathy writes: Considering the importance of the horcruxes to Voldemort, and considering that he was furious when he found out that Lucius had allowed one of them to be destroyed, I think the only logical move for Voldemort will be to check each horcrux to make sure that most of them are alright. It will have nothing to do with "Good" Snape or "Evil" Snape, Voldemort is going to want to check up on what is important to him. If Snape is "Good" there should be some information, perhaps sent by Patronus, of the hiding place of some of these horcruxes. While I don't think that V would actually show them to Snape, he might take Snape with him as most trusted DE to guard him while he is mucking around with his horcruxes. KJ Marianne S > I have a strong suspicion that Snape is taking Draco into hiding. > Snape will need to be in hiding from the Order, the Ministry, > and from Voldemort; I am sure that Voldemort will be none > too pleased that Snape did the deed assigned to Draco because > Draco couldn't go through with it. Draco, Narcissa, Belatrix, and > Severus would all be killed or at least very severely punished and > tortured for the Unbreakable Vow. I wouldn't be surprised if > Snape is hiding Narcissa along with Draco. Marianne: Kathy writes: The only sensible place for Snape to be is right next to Voldemort. I believe that Voldemort told Snape to do for Dumbledore if Draco couldn't, but to let him try, so that Snape's place as a spy could be protected as long as possible. This makes perfect sense. I think he will try to explain Draco's failure as youth and volunteer to take over Draco's training. This would help protect him for a while. KJ Matt > Voldemort will not want to send Death Eaters to guard the horcruxes > because he fundamentally does not trust them (and with good reason, > viz. R.A.B.). Sending Death Eaters to shore up the fortifications has > the same problem: it risks one of them finding out what is being > hidden and using it as leverage. Matt Kathy writes: I agree with this comment. He would not want the DE to see the places that mean something to him, or where he has hidden things, other than one or two special DE. Bellatrix said that she had been entrusted with Voldemort's most precious... and then quit speaking. Lucius was also given one of the horcruxes to accomplish some goal, perhaps just hide it at Hogwarts, and then caused it to be destroyed. I think that all of the DE knew that Voldemort was not dead after the fall because of the Dark Mark. I wonder, if at the moment of Voldemort's destruction, the Mark will begin to kill its bearer, like the spell-damage on Dumbledore's arm??? The Mark almost seems an off-shoot somehow of the horcrux magic. Maybe that is the only way that we will be able to truly see that Voldemort is gone for good. KJ From juli17 at aol.com Fri Aug 19 05:18:27 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:18:27 EDT Subject: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. Message-ID: <210.72c0bd4.3036c5a3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138051 >Matt: >So I guess we have an illustrator who's as good with orientation as >JKR is with numbers. The US cover of HBP also shows Dumbledore with a >healthy right hand, even though it is his right (wand) arm that is >supposed to be injured. (Yes, Dumbledore is also right-handed; the >narrator refers specifically to his "right" hand when he stands up at >the opening feast in HBP.) Laura: Apparently, there are at least two illustrators who show Dumbledore's right hand healthy. The cover for the German version of HBP is now on Amazon's .de web site and DD's right hand (holding a wand) looks fine. _http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551566666.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg_ (http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551566666.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) Julie: I've come up with a theory for this continual discrepancy with the HP covers (at least with Grandpre, who always shows Harry using what appears to be his left hand). The covers are *reverse* images, i.e., we are viewing them in a mirror. Perhaps it is the Mirror of Erised, or some other mirror that will become critical to the tale. Thus on the cover of HBP, the mirror image we see appears to be Dumbledore's intact right hand, and Harry holding his wand in his left hand, when it is in fact just the OPPOSITE. To view the covers correctly, simply hold them in front of any convenient mirror and you will see the truth! Okay, it's a theory anyway... Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Fri Aug 19 05:22:03 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:22:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's (or is it Tom Sr.'s?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43056C7B.50009@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138052 justcarol67 wrote: > At any rate, regarding the potion/poison in the cave: snip > The chief questions are whose memory it is (assuming that it's a real > memory) and what, if anything, Snape had to do with it. > As for Snape's having something to do with creating the potion/poison, > as some posters (I can't remember who) have proposed, how could he > have done so? He was eleven years old when Voldemort returned and > started recruiting followers, and by that time, Voldemort had long > since created most if not all of his Horcruxes. The locket and cup > were the third and fourth that he acquired, back when he was not long > out of Hogwarts and Severus Snape had not even been born. Surely > Voldemort had created and hidden the locket Horcrux between that time > and his interview with Dumbledore for the DADA position, which > occurred when Severus was about three years old (and initiated the > DADA curse). I see no reason why he would have hidden the locket > Horcrux a second time or brewed a new thought/memory potion some > eighteen years later using Snape's memories. And I doubt very much > that Snape, protective as he is of his memories, would have brewed > such a potion himself, however unlikely it might be that anyone would > experience the memory and survive to reveal it. Carol Kathy writes: I agree completely that Snape had nothing to do with the cave, or the manufacture of the potion. I also don't believe that Snape's memories are in the pensieve or the potion. That does not make logical sense. What does make sense to me are the following points: 1. We have seen Harry sneaking into peoples' pensieves twice in the books. Obviously, they are not the safest place to put things that you don't ever want shared. 2. If you need to get rid of memories, you can do several things, such as store them in bottles, store them in pensieves, have them obliviated, or give them to someone else for their perusal or safe-keeping. 3. It is logical to me that the memories we hear in the cave are from Dumbledore's mind, not the potion. The potion is causing a replay of what might be the worst memories. 4. Dumbledore has an extremely good reason for his absolute trust in Snape. He could have used veritaserum to question Snape, or legilimency. JKR says that either one can be fooled or circumvented by an occlumens. What apparently can't be fooled without being obvious are memories in a pensieve. 5. Which all leads me to believe that Dumbledore is carrying Snape's memories for safe-keeping. I believe that some of those memories are from Godric's Hollow. What better proof could there be that Snape was genuinely remorseful about spilling the prophesy and causing the deaths of James and Lily. Dumbledore could not tell Harry that because he can not risk Voldemort finding it in Harry's head. KJ > Carol, hoping that someone will slog through the DADA curse post (link > above) and respond to it. The key parts relate to Quirrell, Lupin, and > Snape, exactly the parts that didn't get answered. Carol Kathy writes: I did actually read your post and found very little to argue with. A slightly different viewpoint perhaps. What I see is that Snape had to be aware of the hex on the job. He applied for it every year on Voldemort's original orders and continued it at Dumbledore's request. When Snape was given the job, he had to have known that it was his last year teaching DADA. He might have had a vague hope that he could go back to teaching potions when things started to go bad. I think that the jerk in his hand during the UV was the vision of the handwriting on the wall. He may have thought that there would be a way around it, and I am sure that he told Dumbledore, but it must have looked to him that either he or Dumbledore were going to end up dead. Other than that, I thought it was a marvelous post. Allll of it. :-) KJ From lealess at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 05:37:06 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 05:37:06 -0000 Subject: Life Debt Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138053 >From the latest Mugglenet/TLC interviews, which have been making my life miserable: "MA: Does she [Ginny] have a life debt to Harry from book two? JKR: No, not really. Wormtail is different. You know, part of me would just love to explain the whole thing to you, plot of book seven, you know, I honestly would." There is an essay on LiveJournal about this (user: safakus), but the essay is more about the proper path to redemption than the nature of a life debt. I thought it was interesting that Wormtail owes a life debt, but Ginny does not. The author of the LJ essay speculates that Harry had the right to retribution for the death of his parents, but he decided instead to let Wormtail live, and that created the life debt. There was no such claim on Ginny's life, hence, no life debt. Which has me thinking about Severus' life debt to James. Even though Severus disavows it somewhat, Dumbledore and probably Voldemort recognize it, and it still seems to be operative and, moreover, to transfer to Harry. I wonder if a similar dynamic to Wormtail's occurred when Severus' debt was incurred. I wonder if James somehow had a right to make a claim against Severus for something, but decided instead to save his life, i.e., saving his life alone was not enough to create a life debt. It sounds far-fetched; I can't think of any clues that would suggest what Snape might have owed James. (There are clues, right?) Or maybe the life debt is created through a totally different dynamic. Or maybe Snape never really had a life debt; it was all a smokescreen. Anyway, I thought I'd throw it out for speculation. These questions intrigue me, but then my brain starts hurting. lealess From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 05:48:20 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 05:48:20 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "merpsiren" wrote: > Okay here are more of my explanation... > > Would Voldemort really trust ANYONE whose family he had murdered > right before that person's eyes? > > My take on this... > > Voldemort demands sacrifices and punishes his Death Eaters without > consideration of what the DE may think of him in return. Voldemort > expects everyone will fear him and that he can control their behavior > and actions by this power of fear. So, if he killed Snape's family > and "spared" Snape's life, Voldemort would see himself as showing > mercy and expect Snape to learn that further disloyalty will be > punished with Snape's life. Voldemort would believe this to be a > strong enough threat to keep Snape in line since death is what > Voldemort fears for himself. > > Voldemort thinks nothing of asking the Malfoy's to allow Draco to take > his place as a Death Eater. Narcissa recognizes that Draco is being > set up as a punishment for the actions of Lucius and yet Voldemort > doesn't fear that this request will push the Malfoys away from him, > but demands that they make the sacrifice that is expected of them. > > Bellatrix Lestrange declares in the chapter "Spinner's End" that she > would be proud to offer up her sons (if she had any) to the service of > the Dark Lord. > > Kris Richard here: I see a World of difference between Voldemort's treatment of the Malfoys and the hypothesized treatment of Snape's family. In the case of the Malfoys, Draco is "given the opportunity" to redeem his family's honor in the service of Voldemort. If he dies, he dies, but in an attempt to redeem family honor, not murdered in cold blood. In THIS we see what I believe Voldemort considers mercy. In the case of Regulus Black, we see Voldemort punishing a traitor with death, but haven't seen an punishment of the broader family. (This doesn't mean it didn't happen, but we have no support in canon that I know of to support such.) This is also a sort of mercy, in that the ancient approach to dealing with traitors often involved killing off entire families, killing the leadership of the families and selling the rest into slavery, and other similarly terminal solutions. The wizarding World tends towards some archaic approaches, so I don't see such an approach being inherently alien to Voldemort or the Death Eaters ... and thus the "mercy" of limiting direct punishment to the guilty party. Now, Draco actually managed to achieve all but the murder of Dumbledore by his own hand. The way I see it, Draco will be punished for NOT killing Dumbledore, but this will be punishment for a clear failure to obey Voldemort's order. Given the apparent code of behavior among the Death Eaters, it would not be regarded as unexpected, or even inappropriate, should Draco be killed for his "crime." He didn't obey a direct order by Voldemort, nor did he redeem his family's honor. (I don't believe Draco WILL be killed by Voldemort for his failure, but Draco isn't going to like what is done to him one bit.) This is a far cry from Voldemort murdering an infant in cold blood. And still farther from killing such an infant and his mother in cold blood, just in case that infant might possibly be a threat at some later date. As for Bellatrix's assertion about being willing to sacrifice her non-existent sons in the service of Voldemort, we have two problems for your theory. First, she has no sons, and so isn't likely to appreciate just what such a sacrifice means to many a mother. Second, having a son or sons die in service is again not the same has having an infact pulled away and killed "just in case." We still don't know why Voldemort offered Lily the chance to step aside and live, rather than simply killing her out of hand as a means of being efficient in the enterprise of disposing of Harry, but it is important to note that she WAS given that option. Even Voldemort doesn't kill purely for convenience. And we even know that Lily (and James) had defied Voldemort at least thrice to that point. So, no, I don't see Voldemort as thinking he can simply kill family members, and particularly wives and infant children, without serious adverse effects on the survivor's loyalty. Richard From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Fri Aug 19 06:05:45 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:05:45 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. In-Reply-To: <210.72c0bd4.3036c5a3@aol.com> References: <210.72c0bd4.3036c5a3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138055 >(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551566666.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) > >Julie: >I've come up with a theory for this continual discrepancy with the >HP covers (at least with Grandpre, who always shows Harry using >what appears to be his left hand). The covers are *reverse* images, >i.e., we are viewing them in a mirror. Perhaps it is the Mirror of >Erised, or some other mirror that will become critical to the tale. >Thus on the cover of HBP, the mirror image we see appears to >be Dumbledore's intact right hand, and Harry holding his wand in >his left hand, when it is in fact just the OPPOSITE. That doesn't work for the German cover, though, since you can see both of Dumbledore's hands and they are both healthy and fine. In addition, in the art work for the German cover of OoP, Harry is holding his wand in his right hand, as he should be, but isn't in HBP. My theory is that it is artistic license. The thought is that a withered and blackened hand would be ugly and unappealing on the cover, so they conveniently ignore it. The right hand vs. left hand thing is due to the artist's conception of balance and appeal. IMO. Who would have thought, though, that the clasped hands on the British children's edition cover would be Snape and Narcissa? Why does Snape's (?) hand look so much older? At least Harry's wand is in his right hand. Dumbledore's though is in his left hand, with his right hand not visible. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 06:30:43 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:30:43 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Snape Distrusted by all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138056 Aussie wrote: > I did a word search about Snape sleeping, and couldn't find anything > in the posts. Seems as though NO-ONE trusted Snape. Carol responds: We don't know that he was asleep. He certainly was not dressed in his night shirt (as in the encounter with Fake!Moody in GoF) when Flitwick came to his office and nothing is said about waking him up. I think DD was just assuming that he was asleep because of the late hour, but Snape the night owl wa more likely marking DADA essays than sleeping. He certainly didn''t know that the DEs had found a way into Hogwarts and yet he seems to have been awake. He might well have been waiting for Dumbledore to return. We don't know. > Aussie: > - Draco didn't trust him enough to wake him for the big event. Carol: He didn't want Snape to steal his "glory," remember? This was *his* big challenge. (Stupid little git.) > Aussie: > - DD didn't tell him to stand guard with the OOTP at Hogwarts that > night Carol: Of course not. Snape could no more serve guard duty where DEs' children might see him and report him than he could join the Order members at the MoM. It would blow his cover. And the DA (sorry I snipped that part of your post) didn't trust him because Harry didn't. > Aussie: > - Nor did DD tell him he may need Snape's Dark Arts remidies later > even though the headmaster warned Harry about conditions of > accompanying him. DD knew it was perillous and protected with Dark > magic, so why not advise Snape? > We don't know that he didn't tell him. Snape could have been waiting to be summoned. But DD did trust him. He wanted Snape and no one else to help him after he'd been poisoned. And had Draco not chosen that same moment to let the Death Eaters in, Snape would almost certainly have done so--as he saved Dumbledore after the ring Horcrux, Katie Bell from the cursed necklace, and Draco from Harry's Sectumsemprs. But when he went up the stairs, fate was already in motion. The provisions of his Unbreakable Vow had to be filled or he would die. Maybe Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore. I don't think he expected it to happen even though he'd taken the vow and the DADA post was cursed. Like Dumbledore, he thought that the school was protected. How could he have imagined that he would find Dumbledore, who had so easily staved off Fudge and his Aurors only a year before, disarmed and helpless? He doesn't even raise his wand until after Dumbledore speaks and they exchange that glance, whatever the glance may mean. I don't know what happened in that moment or what went through either Snape's or Dumbledore's mind. But until that moment, and maybe even as Snape raised his wand and cast whatever curse he cast (AK in your view), Dumbledore trusted Severus Snape. As for the Death Eaters trusting him (another part I snipped), he had very carefully cleared away Bellatrix's doubts at Spinner's End, and he made sure to tell her to spread the word to those who'd been talking about him behind his back. Again, he needs to allay their suspicions to keep his very deep cover. Now that he's killed Dumbledore and "proven" his loyalty, they'll probably not ask any questions at all. It's quite a feat, whether he's good or evil, to have Death Eaters fearing him and obedient to his will. Unfortunately for him, the process works in reverse for the Order, whose trust he has forfeited. They ought, I think (and this is just my *feeling*) to have reacted more as Slughorn did ("I taught him. I thought I knew him.") rather than implying that they'd been suspicious of him all along. How *could* McGonagall, who had been his teacher for seven years and worked alongside him for fifteen, dismiss him so quickly as an ex-DE whom she had trusted only because Dumbledore did? Her reaction reminds me of the people in the "Riddle House" chapter who were so quick to condemn Frank Bryce. Only Hagrid clings to his trust until he sees Dumbledore's body. I wonder if Lupin reacted that way when Sirius was charged with murder. I hope not. They couldn't know about the Unbreakable Vow, of course, but they're very quick to assume the worst--that Snape was a traitor all along and that he murdered Dumbledore of his own volition. Not even Lupin, himself a victim of it, takes the DADA curse into account. While I don't believe that Dumbledore's death was a mercy killing, I do think that Dumbledore was dying anyway and Snape's so-called choice was between three deaths and one. I don't doubt for a moment that he feels deep and genuine remorse. And I will be quite surprised if Dumbledore, the Epitome of Goodness and JKR's mouthpiece, was wrong to trust Severus Snape. Carol From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Aug 19 06:46:34 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:46:34 -0000 Subject: Fenrir Greyback - literary parallels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138057 Geoff: When I read HBP after it first came out, the name of Fenrir Greyback jumped out at me from the page. Now, after a month, I am finding time to put down a few thoughts about this character and parallels to him in other books. The reason his name initially jumped out at me was an association with CS Lewis. In his first Chronicle of Narnia "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" the chief of the White Witch's police in the UK version is a wolf named Maugrim but in the early US edition he is called Fenris Ulf and the similarity of the names intrigued me. In the last couple of days, I have had time to look for information about this name and there are some interesting parallels and links which emerge. The following information is mainly from Wikipedia with additional annotations by myself. In Norse mythology, the Fenrisulfr, Wolf of Fenrir or simply Fenrir is a monstrous wolf, the son of Loki and the giantess Angrbo?a. Fenrir is bound by the gods, but is ultimately destined to slip his bonds and devour Odin during the course of Ragnar?k, before being slain by Odin's son, Vi?arr, who will either stab him in the heart or rip his jaws asunder according to different accounts. Maugrim is a powerful wolf and one of the White Witch's servants in the book The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C. S. Lewis. His name is derived from the words "maw" (meaning mouth), "morgue", and "Grim" (a foreboding wolf-like figure from English folklore). His name was changed to Fenris Ulf for early American editions of the book. More recent American editions have reverted to the original British text, with the name Maugrim. In Harry Potter terms, there seems to be a link between the Grim and Maugrim. It is also interesting to note as a side issue that Fenris Ulf has a giant mother ? now who does that remind us of? Fenrir Greyback is the most vicious werewolf alive. It was he who bit Remus Lupin and turned him into a werewolf (as Lupin's father had offended him). He is on Voldemort's side in the Second War. He is named for the wolf Fenrir, whose release in Norse mythology heralds Ragnar?k. The mythical Fenrir kills Odin, who is then quickly avenged by his son Vi?arr. Another thought I would like to run past other members is whether Fenrir is his real given name or a nickname. Agreed he is a werewolf but when did he become one? I can't see anyone naming a child after the monstrous wolf of Norse mythology. If I may now go slightly OT, there are other connections which show that writers have been drawing on the same ideas as source material. We have already been told that Fenris Ulf is involved with Ragnar?k. Ragnar?k ("Doom of the Gods"), also called Gotterd?mmerung (German= twilight of the gods), means the end of the cosmos in Norse mythology. It will be preceded by Fimbulvetr, the winter of winters. Three such winters will follow each other with no summers in between. Conflicts and feuds will break out, even between families, and all morality will disappear. This is the beginning of the end. I have in the past on HPFGU referred to a couple of books by Alan Garner, which I recommended highly to other members if they can track copies down. They are "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen" and "The Moon of Gomrath". During the course of the first book, the heroes encounter the Fimbulwinter when they are seriously impeded by a violent snowstorm before the evildoers of the book are eaten by Managarm and thus sent to Ragnarok. In Nordic mythology, Managarm is a giant "moon dog" who eats the flesh of the deceased and is associated with the coming of Ragnarok. I am very intrigued by the way in which these various elements have been used by the authors I have I have mentioned, not forgetting that Tolkien drew on myths such as The Elder Edda for names in "The Lord of the Rings". I wonder how far they might have been influenced by each others' writings. Did anyone else find his name familiar? From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 07:27:57 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:27:57 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138058 To condense Carol's well thought out and detailed post, she proposes that the nature of the curse is that prior to the start of the term, an agent of the task of undoing the Professor by way of his/her own darker side chances itself into ambush position. In PS/SS Quirrel puts on the Turban right before coming to Hogwarts after he fails to get the stone from Gringotts, in COS Ron's wand breaks just as they arrive at Hogwarts, In POA Carol suggests that the agent is the Marauders Map, but I kind of differ in thinking that the agent is the unfinished business among the Marauders and also between them and Snape. Sorry Carol, but your excellent telling of the tale of the jinx's ambush upon Lupin made me almost absolutely sure that the agent involved Snape making Lupins potion too, meaning that the agent was the old feud, resurrected by Sirius escape from Azkaban. What is likely is that right after Lupin was offered the job *blammo* Sirus sees Peter on Rons shoulder. The DADA jinx has actually *catalysed* Sirius' escape.. ! wow, deep huh. Ok back to the point which was..... that by the hypothesis there is an agent that appears before start of term, and the DADA Professor is usually done in by their own darker side in the end. Since Carol didn't give too many specifics for the Jinx acting on Moody and Umbridge, I think I 'll just test the hypothesis on these two. First what undoes Umbridge is fairly okay under this, basically she is done in by her own policy drafts essentially, (which Carol may find she likes does 'metaphorically' /mean/ her blood drawing quill, I think) and the agent poised to undo her in the end would most likely be the mobilised action against her bigoted policies namely (S.P.E.W. founder Hermione Granger), Grawp (the now virtually integratably civilised Giant) and his being brought to the forest by Hagrid which rouses the Centaurs. It could also be her attack on Harry, actually, the sending of the Dementors to Little Whinging did catalyse most of the mobility against her, a lot of her undoing was people who were mobilised to defend Harry and what he stood for, now that I think about it. Okay so fairly comfortably Umbridge fits the pattern, her demented drafting definitely undid her and she placed it herself right before she got to Hogwarts. So that brings us finally to Crouch. His undoing is not really clear. Essentially it's that Dumbledore figured him out. So I think that the Agent here, is the Dark Mark. Lets think of it as the last cog to slide into place when DD was wondering why Moody took Harry away from him, DD's counting down the clues as to Moody's strange behaviour and it's that darn silly Dark Mark he conjured at the QWC that gave him away in the last seconds. Its neatly placed right before the start of term, thematically it pervades the story, so I think that it makes a real good agent, in fact. Ok so we have Umbridges Quill (or rather what she uses it for) and Crouch's Dark Mark, and the DADA Jinx looks a lot like Carols proposal to me. So what about Snape? Some are proposing that he might have thought that he would be cunning enough to break the curse. I really like that actually. So I would like to speculate on that premise, and see where it leads. What appears to happen in HBP is that the UV is the agent of the curse. It fits the pattern, appears before the start of term, strung along through the plot it lies in wait to ambush its prey.. all good. Skip a few details and get to the points that we are seeming to establish so far. In each case the actual agent of the undoing is itself representative of the dark side of the DADA teacher, Quirrel's Dark side - working for Voldemort - killed by Voldemorts own handiwork (the protection in Harry's skin), Gilderoy's Dark side - One Spell Wonder - loses all to his spell, Lupins Dark side - Secrets kept for his friends - loses his job to his secret that his friends kept for him, Crouch's Dark Side - His Dark Mark which he loves - Undone in the end by his Dark Mark, Umbridges Dark Side - drafting sadistic legislation - gets treated to laws of another autonomous sentient. So what we are looking for in the UV is the connection to Snapes Dark side. It's obvious, but it's still ambiguous. Snape's Dark side is clearly that someone shouldn't Trust him. Trust is the point of a Unbreakable Vow, or should I say a lack of it. Now like I said, it remains ambiguous because we already knew that *someone* was being decieved by Snape, does the UV tell us anything more about who it is that is being decieved? What is each using it's agent for? Quirrel is hiding behind his turban, Lockhart is Hiding behind his Wand, Lupin hides behind his secret, Crouch is not hiding behind his Dark Mark, he wants nothing more than to reveal that, but he's hiding behind other things (:S anomaly), Umbridge is hiding behind her Quill (what a wuss ) but she also seems to want to reveal her Dark side too not hide it... Ohh darn we are no closer than we were before. Can anyone else talk me out of giving up on this line of thought. If we assume that we can apply the same as the first three DADA techers then we are assuming that Snape uses the UV to hide behind. But if we are going to assume there is a pattern then Snape uses the UV to reveal himself. If we are assuming nothing then it goes either way, darn it! ambiguous again. Valky Who is beginning to think that all roads 'Snape' lead to dead ends. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 08:35:52 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:35:52 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138059 Valky wrote: > To condense Carol's well thought out and detailed post, she proposes > that the nature of the curse is that prior to the start of the term, > an agent of the task of undoing the Professor by way of his/her own > darker side chances itself into ambush position. In PS/SS Quirrel puts on the Turban right before coming to Hogwarts after he fails to get the stone from Gringotts, in COS Ron's wand breaks just as they arrive at Hogwarts, In POA Carol suggests that the agent is the Marauders Map, but I kind of differ in thinking that the agent is the unfinished business among the Marauders and also between them and Snape. Sorry Carol, but your excellent telling of the tale of the jinx's ambush upon Lupin made me almost absolutely that the agent was the old feud, resurrected by Sirius escape from Azkaban. > > So that brings us finally to Crouch. His undoing > is not really clear. Essentially it's that Dumbledore figured him out. So I think that the Agent here, is the Dark Mark. Lets think of it as the last cog to slide into place when DD was wondering why Moody took Harry away from him, DD's counting down the clues as to Moody's > strange behaviour and it's that darn silly Dark Mark he conjured at > the QWC that gave him away in the last seconds. Its neatly placed > right before the start of term, thematically it pervades the story, so I think that it makes a real good agent, in fact. > > Ok so we have Umbridges Quill (or rather what she uses it for) and > Crouch's Dark Mark, and the DADA Jinx looks a lot like Carols proposal to me. > > So what about Snape? > What appears to happen in HBP is that the UV is the agent of the > curse. It fits the pattern, appears before the start of term, strung > along through the plot it lies in wait to ambush its prey.. all good. > > In each case the actual agent of the undoing is > itself representative of the dark side of the DADA teacher, Quirrel's Dark side - working for Voldemort - killed by Voldemorts own handiwork (the protection in Harry's skin), Gilderoy's Dark side - One Spell Wonder - loses all to his spell, Lupins Dark side - Secrets kept for his friends - loses his job to his secret that his friends kept for him, Crouch's Dark Side - His Dark Mark which he loves - Undone in the end by his Dark Mark, Umbridges Dark Side - drafting sadistic > legislation - gets treated to laws of another autonomous sentient. > > So what we are looking for in the UV is the connection to Snapes Dark side. It's obvious, but it's still ambiguous. Snape's Dark side is > clearly that someone shouldn't Trust him. Trust is the point of a > Unbreakable Vow, or should I say a lack of it. Now like I said, it > remains ambiguous because we already knew that *someone* was being > decieved by Snape, does the UV tell us anything more about who it is > that is being decieved? > Carol responds: Good summation, Valky. You may be right about the feud rather than the map as agent (though Lupin should not have kept it and he should have wiped it clean before running out). I really like your Dark Mark as agent for Crouch!Moody idea. What I was getting at though, is that the DADA curse works Voldemort's will, consciously or unconsciously. In almost all cases (Umbridge's and Lockhart's are the weakest for the theory) the DADA teachers are somehow linked to Voldemort and/or their fall benefits him. Quirrell's connection is obvious, as is Crouch!Moody's. Lockhart is supposedly on his way to deal with the basilisk when the DADA curse strikes. Even Umbridge, my weakest example, is linked to Voldemort by the Dementors she sends after Harry and the Crucio she tries to cast on him. Lupin's fall releases Wormtail and Snape's fall kills Dumbledore, both clear advantages for Voldemort regardless of the will of the DADA teacher involved. I wanted to make especially clear that in Snape's case, the Unbreakable Vow is not some random thing that just happens; it's the agent of the DADA curse. As I noted earlier, it happens soon after he accepts the job and before he starts teaching, exactly as Voldemort enters Quirrell's head soon after he applies and before the term begins. Unlike the pathetic Quirrell, he tries to fight it but he fails. Just as Lupin uncharacteristically runs out of his office forgetting his potion, the full moon, and the Marauders map because Pettigrew has appeared on it at the worst possible moment for Lupin, Snape runs up the stairs to find himself confronted with the worst possible scenario--Death Eaters, a wandless and helpless Dumbledore, and Draco failing to do the deed. The doom shaped by the Unbreakable Vow, itself a product of the DADA curse, falls on him at that moment. Also, I don't think it's so much a teacher's Dark side as a secret that, along with the agent, shapes his fall in a particular way. What Snape is concealing is where his loyalties lie. It could be a divided loyalty that forces him to choose a side at the last moment. Or it could be loyalty to Dumbledore for which the DADA curse is punishing him in the worst possible way, by forcing Snape to kill him. Either way, I think it's his secret devotion to one side or the other that the DADA curse uses to trap him. Thanks, Valky, for helping me work that out. Carol, wondering if Valky noticed that an earlier post credits her with hiding Horcruxes (So that's what you've been doing when you weren't posting. Talk about secrets!) ;-) From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 19 08:48:30 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:48:30 -0400 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) Message-ID: <003e01c5a49a$c6bed080$83c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138060 catkind >LV: Here, Bella, I'll leave this locket at your Uncle's house, just pop it down the cave for me, there's a dear? (Bella at Spinner's End: The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious...) CathyD: Bella (and other DEs) only *think* they are favourites of the Dark Lord. Dumbledore's "he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemiers" and other remarks, in HBP, about LV working alone, and that his followers are mistaken when they believe they are in his conficence, show that. I don't believe for one second, that a man - for lack of a better word - like LV, who truly trusts no one (the most skilled Legillimens) would have allowed any one of his followers to place one of the Horcruxes anywhere. Even not knowing what they were, they would know they were hiding something important for the DL and, in LV's mind, that person would then have to die or he would run the risk of them telling someone else (oh, see what Voldie asked me to do!). Easy enough to kill one person, but how do you ever find out how far the information has spread? We already know that the DEs are not trustworthy. They are discussing, in Spinner's End, something that was *not* to be talked about. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 19 08:55:13 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:55:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138061 Finwitch: > > Because Dumbledore believed his story. That's it. There is no secret > reason (although Tonks &co. feel more comfortable to belive there > was), just that. Dumbledore trusted Severus Snape simply because > Dumbledore is a trusting man. Because Dumbledore believes very firmly > in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. > Hickengruendler: I disagree. I think this is what JKR wants us to believe, both in her vague statements in her interviews and during Harry's thoughts in the books, but this contradicts what we know about Dumbledore, IMO. He is not that trusting. He didn't trust Tom Riddle. He might have given him the benefit of a doubt, but he didn't trust him and decided to keep an eye on him. He also didn't trust anyone of James' and Lily's friends. Instead, he wanted to be their Secret Keeper himself, meaning that although he still worked with them, he wasn't sure about either Sirius or Remus or Peter. That means that he probably wants to believe the best of everybody, but he is not foolish enough to expect it. And yet this man doesn't waver a second in his trust in someone who was not only a Death Eater, but who also was as a student probably as much in the Dark Arts as Tom Riddle was? I really don't think so. I still believe Dumbledore knows more about Snape than we do, and that's why he trusts him. Hickengruendler From cat_kind at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 09:02:15 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:02:15 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138062 > Marianne S: > I have been thinking along these same lines myself. Although, my > thought has been that Regulus was sent to hide the Horcrux and, upon > realizing exactly what this meant, destroyed the real Horcrux within > the Slytherin locket and planted the fake. However, I see a lot more > holes in what I was thinking than what you wrote. If Regulus had > destroyed the piece of soul in the locket, I think he could still have > planted the real locket just like Dumbledore was able to wear the > real Horcrux ring after he destroyed the piece of soul. catkind: If Regulus has *destroyed* the soul in the original already, he could plant the now harmless original locket, yes. But I thought we are assuming he has only hidden the original? Otherwise LV would have noticed himself feeling more human etc.etc. Marianne S: > Nevertheless, I do see a point of a refillable pensieve. Perhaps Voldemort > does not expect anyone to actually make it through drinking the entire > potion, so it magically refills itself so that no one will suspect that > someone may have been killed in the midst of drinking it. Another > theory is that R.A.B. could have made the potion refill so, if Voldemort > were to do a rudimentary check on it, he'd be none the wiser. catkind: Ah, yes, perhaps I was being silly there. I wonder if any of those Inferi were other people trying to get at the locket? I was inclined to think, if LV wandered into the cave he couldn't help noticing the switch, even if he can't magically sense the presence of pieces of his soul. On the other hand, if DD and Harry failed to notice, why shouldn't LV? Marianne S: > Furthermore, I have been pondering this for quite a while... I wonder > if anyone else thinks that what Dumbledore is "experiencing" when > he ingests the potion is a vision of the DE bloodbath that will occur > at the school... unless he goes back and has Snape fulfill the promise > they both know about -- to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore does not > fear death for himself... it is but another journey... but he does not > wish harm on any of his students. I believe that he and Snape have > known all year that a time would come where Dumbledore would have > to sacrifice himself and have Snape perform the "murder" or the > consequences would be dire indeed. catkind: Ah yes, it all comes back to the old Snape theories :-) Me too, I have to admit, though I'm tending more to the theories about what the potion would have done to DD in the long term if he'd lived to see. A Potion that makes you see possible futures? Interesting idea. I was also wondering about those babblings - the first sounded almost like it could be a childhood throwback - but the second did rather sound like protecting his students from something. But when it comes down to it, why would LV have a potion to cause useful or interesting visions, when he could have one to cause tormented ramblings? catkind From cat_kind at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 09:34:42 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:34:42 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: <003e01c5a49a$c6bed080$83c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138063 > catkind earlier: > >LV: Here, Bella, I'll leave this locket at your Uncle's house, just > pop it down the cave for me, there's a dear? > (Bella at Spinner's End: The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted > me with his most precious...) > > CathyD: > Bella (and other DEs) only *think* they are favourites of the Dark Lord. Dumbledore's "he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemiers" and other remarks, in HBP, about LV working alone, and that his followers are mistaken when they believe they are in his conficence, show that. > > I don't believe for one second, that a man - for lack of a better word - like LV, who truly trusts no one (the most skilled Legillimens) would have allowed any one of his followers to place one of the Horcruxes anywhere. Even not knowing what they were, they would know they were hiding something important for the DL and, in LV's mind, that person would then have to die or he would run the risk of them telling someone else (oh, see what Voldie asked me to do!). catkind: Yeah, LV does seem more like the work alone type, but then, we know he was a bit careless with his Horcruxes. Lucius Malfoy had one, after all - that's canon for his allowing one of his DEs to put a Horcrux somewhere, and Lucius seems to have known it was something important, though how much he knew isn't clear. If you insist LV put the locket in the cave, however, you have to explain both how the unknown RAB comes to be stronger than Dumbledore, and why he or she bothers to put in a fake Horcrux and replace the potion. (Well, not you personally, Cathy!) He was expecting to be dead, and seems to have wanted LV to know about it, or why leave the note in the first place? From cat_kind at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 09:43:00 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:43:00 -0000 Subject: Fenrir Greyback - literary parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138064 Geoff: > Another thought I would like to run past other members is whether > Fenrir is his real given name or a nickname. Agreed he is a werewolf > but when did he become one? I can't see anyone naming a child after > the monstrous wolf of Norse mythology. catkind: Fascinating mythology, Geoff, which I've snipped because I can't think of anything intelligent to say about it. Do people think Greyback is a nickname then? I was taking that as a (translation of a) nordic-type surname. Perhaps there are wild werewolf tribes, with proper wolfish names? On the other hand, if you were named Fenrir, it might be traumatising enough to send you off looking for werewolves ;-) And I thought Remus Lupin was bad enough as a name. catkind From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 19 09:44:15 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:44:15 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses and Harry's judgement ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138065 Betsy Hp: > > But I don't think Harry *ever* considered that Draco might > > actually be a victim of Voldemort's. > Alla: > I am with Phoenixgod - Draco started this adventure as being > Voldemort's accomplice, NOT a victim, IMO. He planned assacination > attempt because he wanted glory and even accused Snape of trying to > steal his glory. Hickengruendler: I never thought I would defend the little ferret, but one doesn't necessarily exclude the other. I agree with Narcissa in thinking, that Voldemort chose it as a revenge for Lucius, and Snape seems to agree as well. Voldemort wanted Draco to fail and possibly getting killed in the course of the deed, to hurt Lucius and maybe Narcissa. I don't think Voldemort threatened Draco from the very beginning. He probably knew how to seduce him to the Dark Side, in promising him glory and telling him that he has the chance to take revenge on Harry for sending Lucius to prison. And I think Draco was naive enough to believe all of this and to willingly join Voldemort. That makes him indeed an accomplice. But it also makes him a victim of Voldemort's schemes, who exactly knew which cards to play, to get Draco, where he wants him to be. Draco, in spite of being really nasty and awful most of the time, is in some ways also really innocent. He was sheltered during his whole life and it wasn't necessary for him to face the harsh reality. Therefore when Voldemort offered him to join the Death Eaters, he agreed, because in theory it was all probably rather cool for him. But once he was being confronted with the harsh reality he realized, that he wasn't able to really do the deed to kill somebody. You could argue if it was out of cowardice ot because he grew a conscience, but nonetheless he wasn't able to do the deed. And he already missed the First Quidditch match in the school year, which was shortly after Katie was being injured. This is a canon point, that he probably felt bad for what happened to Katie, even though we didn't see it. Hickengruendler From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 09:57:10 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:57:10 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138066 > Valky wrote: > > So what about Snape? > > What appears to happen in HBP is that the UV is the agent of the > > curse. It fits the pattern, appears before the start of term, > > strung along through the plot it lies in wait to ambush its prey.. > > all good. > > In each case the actual agent of the undoing is > > itself representative of the dark side of the DADA teacher, > > Quirrel's Dark side - working for Voldemort - killed by Voldemorts > > own handiwork (the protection in Harry's skin), Gilderoy's Dark > > side - One Spell Wonder - loses all to his spell, Lupins Dark side > > - Secrets kept for his friends - loses his job to his secret that > > his friends kept for him, Crouch's Dark Side - His Dark Mark which > > he loves - Undone in the end by his Dark Mark, Umbridges Dark Side > > - drafting sadistic legislation - gets treated to laws of another > > autonomous sentient. > > So what we are looking for in the UV is the connection to Snapes > > Dark side. It's obvious, but it's still ambiguous. Snape's Dark > > side is clearly that someone shouldn't Trust him. Trust is the > > point of a Unbreakable Vow, or should I say a lack of it. Now like > > I said, it remains ambiguous because we already knew that > > *someone* was being decieved by Snape, does the UV tell us > > anything more about who it is that is being decieved? > > > > Carol responds: > Good summation, Valky. You may be right about the feud rather than > the map as agent (though Lupin should not have kept it and he should > have wiped it clean before running out). I really like your Dark > Mark as agent for Crouch!Moody idea. > Valky now: Thanks Carol, the Dark Mark appeals to me in its simplicity, it is a one simple central thing, so I ike it very much except that Crouch seems to be the reversal of Quirrel - Quirrel wants to hide his Loyalty while Crouch wants to reveal it and that irritates and confuses me about my line of thinking there. Something always seems to be slightly out of place when putting this jinx together, for me. Carol: > What I was getting at though, is that the DADA curse works > Voldemort's will, consciously or unconsciously. Valky: Oh yeah Darn it, I went off on my own tangent and that totally slipped my mind, I am glad you repeated it to me though because I did want to explore that too. Carol: > In almost all cases (Umbridge's and Lockhart's are the weakest for > the theory) the DADA teachers are somehow linked to Voldemort and/or > their fall benefits him. > Quirrell's connection is obvious, as is Crouch!Moody's. Lockhart is > supposedly on his way to deal with the basilisk when the DADA curse > strikes. Even Umbridge, my weakest example, is linked to Voldemort > by the Dementors she sends after Harry and the Crucio she tries to > cast on him. Lupin's > fall releases Wormtail and Snape's fall kills Dumbledore, both clear > advantages for Voldemort regardless of the will of the DADA teacher > involved. Valky: Yeah wow, when you put it that way. I'd like to look at what could be behind that. The motives for Voldemorts curse. The firt motive would be to force DD to give in and give him the job. That one is strong enough, but it's not really "Toms style" to leave it at one purpose, is it? So lets assume that the curse works in other ways on the assumption that DD decides to be stubbornly patient with the loss of the DADA teacher every year, which would be a smart call on LV's behalf. I like the notion that you propose Carol, that when the DADA teacher falls it is to Voldies benefit. It works quite well for all he teachers, except maybe for Crouch (not *him* again) under my proposal that him being found out by DD is the fall. So if we go back to the Triwizard Tournament (which is in place before the start of term) like you proposed it works just fine. I can't figure out how that would fit in my *other* stream of thought though. But back to the original point now, a third motive that Voldie might have is to set up the curse in such a way that it always targets Dumbledore in some way, trying to eventually remove him from the Headmaster position in vengeance for his refusal. This kind of makes sense, in the fact that DD is at a loss to fill the position with anyone, but those who can get him in deep trouble. Possibly why he now is used to putting shady characters into the position. And the thing that ousts them in the end, is that fact that DD is still there and they haven't gotten rid of him for LV. Quirrel worked for Voldemort, Lockhart was completely useless, Lupin had a furry little problem, Moody was a very strange and paranoid Auror, and his counterpart Crouch was as shady as they come, Umbridge was clearly out for DD's blood in her Quill, and finally Snape, well thats the sticking point there isn't it. How *did* DD get him into the DADA if Voldie has made it all but impossible to put someone who can't ruin DD into the position. See this is running me in circles now. It's still so ambiguous. All roads Dead end!! Assuming that DD had figured out the nature of the magic that LV had left in his school makes good sense. He's had 30 years to do it, I'd say that after the first 20 or so he'd have *some* idea how it works . So lets assume he'd figured it out now and that's why he picked all these very shady characters for the DADA spot, knowing that with each and every one, he'd be compelled to defend his role as Headmaster because of the tendency of his DADA teacher to make *him* look bad. So what then when it comes time for Harry's sixth year DADA teacher? Why would he choose Snape, how could Snape be available all these years, if he *wasn't* able to bring down DD.. ? If Dumbledore has trusted Severus all these years, then why? Snape has always been available for the DADA job, which would imply, if we assume the above, that Snape was always capable of removing DD from the Headmasters role, someway. I have really talked my way into a corner here, I just don't know. I should just stop trying to investigate this it never goes anywhere... > Carol, wondering if Valky noticed that an earlier post credits her > with hiding Horcruxes (So that's what you've been doing when you > weren't posting. Talk about secrets!) ;-) Valky, Wondering, how does Saraquel *know* about my Horcruxes..? ;D From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 19 10:05:51 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:05:51 -0000 Subject: Fenrir Greyback - literary parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138067 > Geoff: > > Another thought I would like to run past other members is whether > > Fenrir is his real given name or a nickname. Agreed he is a werewolf > > but when did he become one? I can't see anyone naming a child after > > the monstrous wolf of Norse mythology. > > catkind: > Do people think Greyback is a nickname then? I was taking that as a > (translation of a) nordic-type surname. Perhaps there are wild > werewolf tribes, with proper wolfish names? > > On the other hand, if you were named Fenrir, it might be traumatising > enough to send you off looking for werewolves ;-) > > And I thought Remus Lupin was bad enough as a name. > > catkind Marika: In Sweden boys are actually being namned Loke (Loki), so why not Fenrir? Grayback does not sound like a translation of a Nordic name thou. Varg (wolf) is the closest I can think of. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 19 10:18:30 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:18:30 -0400 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil Message-ID: <001601c5a4a7$59977900$6dc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138068 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > The only *proof* that Snape killed > Dumbledore is the eye-witness > account of three Death Eaters, one > wanna-be Death Eater, one Werewolf > and Harry Potter Eggplant: Not true, one other person saw Snape kill Dumbledore, the Narrator; and in 6 books the Narrator has never EVER been wrong. The Narrator never saw Sirius Black kill anyone, he just saw people say they saw him do it. And the Narrator never said he saw Barty Crouch Jr die in Azkaban, he just heard people claim they had seen it. But things are quite different in the Snape Dumbledore murder, the Narrator saw it, he saw all of it and saw it first hand, he was not shy about telling we readers all about it either. > I'd say the evidence that LV > killed James and Lily is just > a little stronger as the Murderer > himself has said he did it The Narrator never saw James and Lilly's murder, the closest is Harry foggy memory of it, we don't have all the gory details like in Dumbledore's murder. And as for Voldemort's confession, well, we know a House Elf and Voldemort's uncle also confessed to murders but in reality they killed nobody. Please understand, I am not saying for one instant that Voldemort did not kill James and Lilly, the evidence is very strong enormously strong, that he did, but the evidence is even stronger that Snape murdered Dumbledore. CathyD - just back from slamming her fingers in the oven door - again! While you have not convinced me one jot with your Narrator explanation...who exactly do you think the Narrator is?...I will herewith agree to disagree, Eggplant. IMO, the Narrator has told us everything. Every single blessed thing, right or wrong. We have been led, by the Narrator, down the garden path on numerous occasions. The Narrator let us believe that Scabbers was just a rat for three years that he lived in Ron's pocket. We were led to believe that Buckbeak had been executed when he had not. I could continue in this vein for pages, with all the things the Narrator has led us to believe that turned out to be quite different in the end. IMO, this Avada Kadavra of Snape's, which is so, to me, blantantly obviously different than the others the Narrator also showed us, is just another device the Narrator is using to lead us down the garden path. To lead us to believe Snape is truly evil. The fact that the AK shows so differently is one of the strongest pieces of evidence, IMO, that it was not the AK that killed DD and that Snape is not a murderer. I know there are differences between the UK and US editions of the books, but I get the impression you and I are not reading the same story at all. And this being my third post for today...I'm off to the oven again.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 10:52:16 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:52:16 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138069 > catkind: > > If you insist LV put the locket in the cave, however, you have to > explain both how the unknown RAB comes to be stronger than > Dumbledore, and why he or she bothers to put in a fake Horcrux and > replace the potion. (Well, not you personally, Cathy!) He was > expecting to be dead, and seems to have wanted LV to know about it, > or why leave the note in the first place? Valky: Mind if I jump in here, catkind, because your line of thought here brings me right back to the thoughts I osted earlier about the potion in the Basin. In case you missed it, I deduced on some premise of how the protection *worked* towards LV's ends, that the act of drinking the potion was the extraction of information that DD informed Harry, that LV would probably have in place there. I proposed that the potion does legilimency on the drinker. I can't really answer all your questions, but it seems to me that R.A.B *was* one of Voldies servants betraying him. Because it answers the particualr question you wrote above: > why he or she bothers to put in a fake Horcrux and > replace the potion. > expecting to be dead, and seems to have wanted LV to know about it, > or why leave the note in the first place? Why this person bothers to put in a fake, is possibly because this person somehow *knows* how this protection works. You are right, R.A.B. knows something we do not, of that I am sure. But one answer I would propose is that the basin, as a magical object, could be tricked after it had been conquered. (Lets think Triwizard cup tricked by Crouch to have an extra name come out of it). So R.A.B. drinks it up, ewww, gets real sick, but manages to survive, then he puts a fake into the basin and tricks the basin into thinking that he/she didn't get the real one. So the basin resets its protections as though he/she had just died. Skipping along into pure speculation, I am supposing that R.A.B. had some idea, what Voldie would do when he came to check his basin, so was probably a DE. Either Voldie would look in and believe nothing had happened. Or if he did notice something had happened, then he would take a look at the legilimensed memories in the basin. The memories would serve to remind him of the horror he put R.A.B. through in order to make him want to betray, then he would retrieve the fake locket and look inside to find the note which clearly is meant to get LV pretty p****d if he ever reads it. Especially the bit where R.A.B says _dying_ is so *small* compared to getting payback on you, yer old fart.. muwahahahah So in conclusion, my thoughts are that this R.A.B. person knows a fair bit before he goes there and most of what he does can be put to the motive that he's out for some pretty awful vengeance on LV if he can get it. As for him going to die, It's seems like R.A.B. thinks that is a small price to pay in order to get back at Voldie. My guess Voldie did something bleedin *horrid* to him/her. It's *got* to be a DE he treats them worse than *anyone*. The thing that's catching my eye tonight is R.A.B.'s arrogance in the face of death. I mean, this person is saying, my revenge for what you've done that's worth dying for.. I am *so* prepared to take whatever comes to in consequence for this vengeance.. Isn't it weird how we've seen that streak before in Sirius, and these initials look like his brother's. Oh, I just had a brainstorm that *noone* is going to like. What if R.A.B. is alive right now.. hehehe we are sooo looking in the wrong direction if JKR decides to make R.A.B. timeturn back from book seven. LOL Valky From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 10:55:09 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:55:09 -0000 Subject: Valky's Horcrxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138070 > > Carol, wondering if Valky noticed that an earlier post credits her > > with hiding Horcruxes (So that's what you've been doing when you > > weren't posting. Talk about secrets!) ;-) > > > Valky, Wondering, how does Saraquel *know* about my Horcruxes..? ;D Saraquel: The funny thing being, that I read Carol's orgiginal comment and was totally puzzled by it, and read it about three times trying to work it out. So your answer Valky came as a bit of a wet haddock round the face, which sent me scrabbling back through my posts to find out where I'd done it. The only thing I'll say in my defence is that I was answering one of your posts at the time! In answer to your question - Legilimency of course! Sorry about that. Saraquel Who really is going back into retirement now in order to get a job and some money to put food in my mouth! From cat_kind at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 11:19:28 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:19:28 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138071 > Valky: > Mind if I jump in here, catkind, because your line of thought here > brings me right back to the thoughts I osted earlier about the potion > in the Basin. > In case you missed it, I deduced on some premise of how the protection > *worked* towards LV's ends, that the act of drinking the potion was > the extraction of information that DD informed Harry, that LV would > probably have in place there. I proposed that the potion does > legilimency on the drinker. > > I can't really answer all your questions, but it seems to me that > R.A.B *was* one of Voldies servants betraying him. > > Why this person bothers to put in a fake, is possibly because this > person somehow *knows* how this protection works. You are right, > R.A.B. knows something we do not, of that I am sure. But one answer I > would propose is that the basin, as a magical object, could be tricked > after it had been conquered. (Lets think Triwizard cup tricked by > Crouch to have an extra name come out of it). So R.A.B. drinks it up, > ewww, gets real sick, but manages to survive, then he puts a fake into > the basin and tricks the basin into thinking that he/she didn't get > the real one. So the basin resets its protections as though he/she had > just died. > > Skipping along into pure speculation, I am supposing that R.A.B. had > some idea, what Voldie would do when he came to check his basin, so > was probably a DE. Either Voldie would look in and believe nothing had > happened. Or if he did notice something had happened, then he would > take a look at the legilimensed memories in the basin. The memories > would serve to remind him of the horror he put R.A.B. through in order > to make him want to betray, then he would retrieve the fake locket and > look inside to find the note which clearly is meant to get LV pretty > p****d if he ever reads it. Especially the bit where R.A.B says > _dying_ is so *small* compared to getting payback on you, yer old > fart.. muwahahahah > > So in conclusion, my thoughts are that this R.A.B. person knows a fair > bit before he goes there and most of what he does can be put to the > motive that he's out for some pretty awful vengeance on LV if he can > get it. As for him going to die, It's seems like R.A.B. thinks that is > a small price to pay in order to get back at Voldie. My guess Voldie > did something bleedin *horrid* to him/her. It's *got* to be a DE he > treats them worse than *anyone*. > > The thing that's catching my eye tonight is R.A.B.'s arrogance in the > face of death. I mean, this person is saying, my revenge for what > you've done that's worth dying for.. I am *so* prepared to take > whatever comes to in consequence for this vengeance.. Isn't it weird > how we've seen that streak before in Sirius, and these initials look > like his brother's. catkind: Hi Valky! I like this theory, which I had missed (along with everything else round here - I can't keep up at all at the mo). So perhaps you've answered this already somewhere... I'm absolutely with you on RAB=Regulus, we have blatantly been hinted at. So, in Voldemort's ideal situation, someone drinks some of the potion then falls down delirious, dying of thirst, so dives headfirst into the lake and gets eaten by the Inferi, or turned into one. Meanwhile the remainder of the potion has stored his memories of why he was there, and replenished itself. RAB comes along and due to his inside knowledge is somehow able to survive drinking the potion in one piece(ish), or at least sane enough to switch lockets and fool the basin. This still seems to make RAB rather powerful, doesn't it? If it's just secret knowledge that's necessary to get at the locket, I can hardly imagine even LV's nearest and dearest would be in on the secret. But are you saying DD was then seeing the previously stored thoughts? Shouldn't the potion then be storing *his* reasons for being there? Or is the enchantment muddled up by now? catkind From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 19 12:38:19 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:38:19 -0000 Subject: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <78.796345b8.30364ec9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: description of DD's death Juli: So, we know that Snape pointed his wand at DD, spoke the AK, > that green light shot out of his wand, that DD was propelled > backward, and that he was dead by the time Harry eventually > reached him. That it is all as it appears--that Snape vilely > murdered DD--is certainly one possibility. But there are others... > 1. Simply because Snape spoke the AK does not mean that is > the spell he actually cast. We know there are nonverbal spells, > and we have no definite canon prohibiting speaking one spell > while actually casting another. So he may not have cast an > AK at all. Marianne: But, do we have definite canon that permits speaking one spell while casting another? I'm not being argumentative here, I don't recall that we do. Julie: > 2. While an Unforgivable spell is said to leave a stain on the soul, > we don't know for sure whether this is true of Snape, even if he > did cast (or attempt to cast) an AK. The Aurors were allowed to > cast Unforgivables in the last war when absolutely necessary, > and presumably these didn't irrevocably stain their souls if their > intent in casting the spell was not an evil one but served some > higher or necessary purpose (like self-defense). If Snape cast > the AK at Dumbledore's request and/or as a sort of mercy killing > that also aided his crucial undercover role as a spy (which > necessitated the spell be an Unforgivable rather than a lesser > spell), then would his soul still be stained? > > And if he cast an AK, but it was an incomplete one because > he lacked the evil intent to kill Dumbledore, yet it was still enough > to kill Dumbledore in his weakened state (perhaps from the fall > itself rather than the AK), would his soul still be stained? Marianne: I think this point is the best one for looking at the gray areas of intent and just what happens to the casters of Unforgivables. In GOF we were told that the Aurors were given new powers to use Unforgivables. Not when "absolutely necessary", but whenever. Which to me says that, if an innocent person was killed in the accidental belief that that person was a DE, well, then, too bad. No harm done. And that is a dangerous path to follow. My reading of the permission to use these curses was that it was an indication that the "good" side was now on the slippery slope to acting very much like the people they were fighting. And, that once being permitted to use them, it could become easier and easier to do. Why bother trying to capture anyone? Just kill them and be done with it. After all, they're all horrible people. Although, with that attitude it becomes harder to identify people, like Regulus, who may be searching for a way out, who may be able to pass on additional information, etc. But, with this "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality that might have developed, as least among some Aurors, everyone on Voldemort's side is equally evil and equally derserving of death. As for Snape's possibly weakened AK, yes, if his actions killed Dumbledore, then I think his soul pays a price. Is he ESE? I tend to think not - I'm one of those who thinks Snape is out for his own skin first, and consequently does good things for DD's side, and questionable things. Someone else asked on this or a related thread if people would declare Harry ESE if he murdered Voldemort. If that's how it plays out, that Harry *kills* Voldemort, and doesn't *defeat* or *vanquish* him in some non-lethal way, then yes, I think Harry's soul is tarnished by that. It doesn't, however, make him ESE! Julie: > 3. Murder is killing with malicious intent. If Snape killed Dumbledore > knowing that he was already dying, with the intent being to end > DD's suffering and grant Dumbledore's own wish to make his death > meaningful in the war against Voldemort (and perhaps to keep > Dumbledore from turning into an Inferi if that is a consequence of > his death by the potion), is that murder? Or is it mercy killing, even > a sort of assisted suicide? (I realized assisted suicide is a touchy > subject, but again I predicate this on DD already being terminally > ill with little or no time left.) Marianne: Well, it's certainly more convenient for explaining away Snape's actions if we assume DD was moments from death ;-). Just shove the old man off a tower so he dies from the shattering impact with the ground. Maybe we're into Wizard world legalities, which have always been murky to me. If Snape's actions are not murder, assuming his intent was indeed to end DD's suffering while simultaneously handling the explosvie situation with the assembled DEs on the tower, they would certainly at least be manslaughter here in the US. The Wizard World doesn't seem to allow for degrees of ending a life, so we don't know if a mercy killing is acceptable or not, whether it involves slipping someone a potion or pushing them off a high elevation. Julie: > 4. If DD asked Snape to deliver the final killing blow, does this > mean the same thing as asking Snape to commit murder, i.e., > to stain or split his soul? I don't think it has to mean that. If > it isn't murder, i.e., killing with malicious intent, but is some > combination of mercy killing/releasing DD's soul before it can > become an Inferi, then it isn't actually murder, and DD is not > endangering Snape's soul. (And I agree that DD would not > ask Snape to do something that would endanger his soul). Marianne: If this situation comes to be resolved exactly as you've postulated, there will still be debate on whether or not it's murder. In JKR's world it might not be, but I suspect many readers would still find Snape's actions to be the equivalent of murder, just as many people do not accept the idea of assisted suicide because it involves the taking of a life, or it allows people to play God. I'd like to add a question of my own here. The question of intent has come up periodically. Some of the Snape defenders have argued that his intent was not to kill DD, but to end DD's suffering, and thus protect Draco and himself from the consequences of the UV. If we non-Snape lovers are asked to, if not forgive Snape's actions, then to at least understand them, can we Sirius lovers ask the same in return? If it is revealed that Sirius' intent in sending Snape into the tunnel duing the Prank was merely to scare the pants off him, then we really can't accuse him of attempted murder, now, can we? Marianne From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 12:40:41 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:40:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > Finwitch: > > > > > Because Dumbledore believed his story. That's it. There is no secret > > reason (although Tonks &co. feel more comfortable to belive there > > was), just that. Dumbledore trusted Severus Snape simply because > > Dumbledore is a trusting man. Because Dumbledore believes very firmly > > in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. > > > > Hickengruendler: > > I disagree. I think this is what JKR wants us to believe, both in her > vague statements in her interviews and during Harry's thoughts in the > books, but this contradicts what we know about Dumbledore, IMO. He is > not that trusting. He didn't trust Tom Riddle. He might have given him > the benefit of a doubt, but he didn't trust him and decided to keep an > eye on him. He also didn't trust anyone of James' and Lily's friends. > Instead, he wanted to be their Secret Keeper himself, meaning that > although he still worked with them, he wasn't sure about either Sirius > or Remus or Peter. That means that he probably wants to believe the > best of everybody, but he is not foolish enough to expect it. > > And yet this man doesn't waver a second in his trust in someone who was > not only a Death Eater, but who also was as a student probably as much > in the Dark Arts as Tom Riddle was? I really don't think so. I still > believe Dumbledore knows more about Snape than we do, and that's why he > trusts him. > > Hickengruendler KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I want to agree with Hicken, I just can't see Dumbledore being this stupid....and I know yes yes, I have read the book and Dumble says his mistakes tend to be huge compared to everyone else, but, I really haven't see him wrong a whole lot of the time. And the bit about Harry having to go it alone that JKR says in her interview, well, I still have a problem with that, in effect, Dumbledore has pushed the kids from the first book to do things alone without adults. HE gives them little hints but, for the most part he lets them do the dangerous stuff. The only time I really every can remember seeing Dumbledore in real action is in OOTP. I will be disappointed if Dumbledore turned out to be this trusting, sorry, I get the idea that this makes him noble, and trusting, and so good, but, meh...He is my other favorite Character and it will totally distory his image in my mind and how I've though of him if he ends up being this gullable. OK so it just seems the only real theory I can come up with, IF snape is fully evil, I would have to just think Dumbledore was using Snape, to help in the fall of Voldemort the first time. Dumbledore has said he came to him before the fall of Voldemort, but, somehow I am thinking maybe he didn't and maybe Snape was right at the Potter's house that night, either for evil, or to help. URG...is mixing my theories here but anyway....and probably rambling. Say Snape is evil, he was evil when he went to try and get the DADA position, before the fall of Voldemort. Snape hears the prophecy takes it back to Voldemort. Voldemort picks the potters, now, at this point I'm going from what Dumbledore says, he says Snape came to him and said he was sorry that the got picked. Some suggest it was because of Lily, but, at that time, Snape would still have the life debt to James, if he was evil, it could just as easily have been that which turned him to go to Dumbledore. Snape would know, James would die for Lily and Harry, so, if that happened then he would know he would never be able to repay his lifedebt to James because, I'm sure Snape would figure Voldemort is going to kill all three of the Potters. So, we have Snape stuck between a rock and a hard place, so, Did he betray the dark lord over the life debt is what I keep wondering? If this is true, I can see Dumbledore not trusting Snape, I just can't see Dumbledore falling for the I'm sorry they got picked etc. but anyway. Dumbledore seemed to know about the Life debt, he knew about it in book one, because he told Harry about it. Soooo...would Snape tell that to Dumbledore?.....hard to say really. Either Way, maybe Dumbledore didn't really trust Snape at first, and decided to let him on the staff, Use him in whatever way he could, and let Snape think he trusted him. Once Voldemort was defeated, he vouched for Snape, giving Snape a second chance, and having Snape on staff meant he would be able to keep an eye on Snape.....but only thing is, if Snape is so evil, why would he not try and start up his own deal, like Voldemort?? All those years and no hint of him even trying to become more than just a simple teacher?? OK, yes, I read chapter two, but even if it is as he claimed, he was staying where the DL put him....It seems if you are this evil and this powerful you would look for ways to improve yourself, and he had the Malfoy's for support if we are to believe their friendship...urg...my head is spinning LOL. Now, some have suggested that Snape went to GH, and tried to warn James that Voldemort was going to find out....I can see this as an attempt to repay the life debt, but, in effect, I would think, wouldn't that be repaying it....If the person didn't listen would it still be your fault...Meh...I don't know. Plus I wouldn't think he would be able to find it for one thing, since it was a secret, and he would have to have been with Voldemort and Peter to know where the place was. So, this sorta gives a hint that if he was at GH, he would have had to been with Voldemort....so, this theory is sorta the Lily/Snape theory, that suggests that is the reason Voldemort offered Lily a chance to step aside. Now, if Snape did in fact have a secret love for Lily, I would imagine if above was the case, then, Voldemort knows, and being the sick evil man Voldemort is, wouldn't he want to take Snape along, wouldn't he want Snape to witness him killing and torturing James- Lily-Harry. Meh, I think I'm getting to long winded here, But, if Dumbledore was doing a Keep your friends closer, but your Enemy's closer deal, well, it cost him his life.....but also, this would lead me to believe that some of the stuff I've seen in the book is true and Dumbledore is just as manipulative as the evil guys and I feel even worse for Harry being involved in the Wizarding World since, he should have explained to Harry up front from the beginning, if I were Harry, I would be equally mad at Dumbledore and everyone else in the WW for that matter if this is the case. Plus the fact, I remember someone asking JKR in an interview why Dumbledore would let a teacher like Snape on the staff and she replies something like Dumbledore things that having a teacher like snape teaches the kids about life.....sorry I don't have the actual quote and am paraphrasing, but anyway. This leads me to believe Dumbledore knows how Snape is in class, this would suggest he would understand the things Harry/Neville/Griffendors/ went through while in Snape's class.....This would make me believe that Dumbledore isn't as nice as some of you think....of course the arugment is still was what Snape did in class Abuse, but thats another argument for another thread. Is Uni Disappointed in Dumbledore....Yes, even more so than Snape-if Mr. S turns out to be pure evil. KarentheUnicorn From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 12:44:03 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:44:03 -0000 Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138074 Several things have plagued me after re-reading HPB for the second time, and they have everything to do with Dumbledore and his demeanor throughout this book. First let's discuss what we know about Dumbledore up to the beginning of book six. (1) He is always kind and thoughtful, and has a playful sense of humor. (2) He is polite to the extreme. (3) He doesn't fail to admit when he has made a mistake, and will be the first to admit "the trappings of an old man." (4) He has an extreme amount of patience with Harry, and shows a generous amount of compassion and caring towards him. (5) He is widely known as the most powerful wizard in the world. Now, take each item above and contrast it with his demeanor in HPB. (1 and 2) His sense of humor and politeness are a bit out of whack in two instances, first at the Dursley's and then with Slughorn. He forces his way past Vernon and into the house, forcefully sitting all three of them on the couch, and then proceeding to knock them about their heads with goblets full of mead. Now, this could be a sign of his disgust at the way Harry has been treated all his life, but Dumbledore has never struck me as the type to make such a point. When he figures out Slughorn has transfigured himself, DD pokes him very hard with the tip of his wand, hard enough to cause Horace a little pain. This is a former professor, with whom DD seems to be friends with, and he does this in front of Harry. Very uncharacteristic of Dumbledore. (3) He is very adamant about his trust of Snape, no matter what Harry tells him. He will not flinch in this regard, even when Harry tells him about the overheard conversation between Draco and Snape. To not even consider Harry's suspicions, especially when we come to find out that even Minerva has brought it up in the past, is very suspicious to me. (4) When he orders Harry to retrieve the memory from Horace, he is very angry and short with Harry when Harry tells him he has failed to do so. He is also short with Harry when it comes to discussing Severus Snape. (5) Perhaps the most important of all...regardless of how old he is, or whether his reflexes are failing him, DD is a powerful wizard. When facing LV in the Ministry, he was very casual, without fear, and was in complete control. Now comes HBP...he allows a ring to nearly kill him, gravely injuring him in the process. A potion weakens him to the point of death. He is disarmed by a mediocre, teenage wizard with no real talent. These things all are all mysterious to me, and I would appreciate any theories you may have. The DD we knew throughout the series was absent in this story, and I am wondering why. Where was Fawkes throughout the whole thing...how could Malfoy (Malfoy!!!!)get the best of him...why on earth would DD proclaim that he was not worried because he was with Harry? Very uncharacteristic... Chris who right now is so puzzled about a powerful wizard that seems to have lost his power From alisondd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 13:09:03 2005 From: alisondd at yahoo.com (Alison D) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:09:03 -0000 Subject: Snape Mirrors Harry (The Tower and the Cave) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138075 Much has been made of Snape's expression just before he apparently AK'd Dumbledore, specifically "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." (HBP 595, US Ed.) Some have taken this to mean the hatred and revulsion were aimed at Dumbledore, Snape's true feelings for the wizard coming forward on his face. But. . . "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing . . . (HBP 571, US Ed.) Harry too had a moment of hatred and repulsion (a synonym for revulsion.) We are not told that the emotions were "etched" on Harry's face, but no doubt there would have been some external display of his internal feelings. The parallel's here if not telling are worth pondering and at least for me cast suspicions about what actually happened on the tower. Alison From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 13:24:38 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:24:38 -0000 Subject: Poetic justice (was: The DADA jinx and its victims.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Quirrell is killed by the mechanism I've described, he is also, like > all the other DADA professors, a victim of the DADA jinx (which > appears, actually, to be a rather sinister curse considering the > grim fates of the DADA teachers we've seen so far). I would even go > so far as to say that Quirrell is killed either by the will of > Voldemort acting through the DADA curse, or by the curse itself, > which seems to > have taken on a life or mind of its own. (Mr. Weasley warns us about > objects that seem able to think for themselves. What about an > abstract entity like a class that destroys everyone who teaches it?) > It's only a matter > of time (a three-term school year, of course) before Auirrell fails > his master again and meets his doom. Voldemort and the curse operate > in tandem, whether Voldemort consciously wills it or not, to bring > Quirrell down, to utterly and permanently destroy him. His loyalty > means nothing to Voldemort, who cares no more about his followers > than about his enemies. Amiable Dorsai: Heh. So, once more, it can be argued, Voldemort has sown the seeds of his own destruction. The curse he placed on the DADA position was his undoing as much as Harry was. This is a theme Rowling likes, apparently--Voldy made Harry the "Chosen One" by his own choice, that Halloween night. Lockhart destroyed himself with his own favorite spell. James' and Sirius' feud with Snape arguably led to their dooms.... Any further examples? I can think of a few more, but I'd like some other opinions. Amiable Dorsai From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 13:30:59 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:30:59 -0000 Subject: Penetrating defenses/Knowing about Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138077 Here are more two things I can't figure out from the scene in the cave. Dumbledore is talking to Harry about LV and the potion: "I'm sorry Harry; I should have said, he would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island," Dumbledore corrected himself. "He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." First problem: Where do we see LV trying to find out how Harry and DD managed to penetrate through his defenses? They were able to get all the way back to Hogwarts with the locket and yet there was no sign of LV. We get to the end of the book, and we still have no indication that LV even knows that his Horcrux has gone missing. Perhaps LV's alarm system was inactivated after R.A.B. took the real locket and now it is no longer needed. But why would he inactivate the alarm and leave all the other protections in place? I keep expecting LV to show up at some point after/during the cave scene, yet he never does. Second problem: If LV believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes, how does this interface with his statement to the Death Eaters in the graveyard in GOF: "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" Perhaps DD meant that LV is the only one who knows the *location* and *number* of his Horcruxes. But from LV's own statement, it appears that his Death Eaters are aware that they exist. [Which raises another question--have any of the Death Eaters made Horcruxes for themselves?] The simplest explanation is that DD was wrong on both counts. LV was not interested in how his defenses had been penetrated (perhaps because he believed them to be impenetrable), and LV did not believe that he was the only one who knew about his Horcruxes. Merrylinks From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 14:35:40 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:35:40 -0000 Subject: Penetrating defenses/Knowing about Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mt3t3l1" wrote: > Second problem: If LV believes that he alone knows about his > Horcruxes, how does this interface with his statement to the Death > Eaters in the graveyard in GOF: "And then I ask myself, but how > could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the > steps I > took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" Perhaps DD > meant that LV is the only one who knows the *location* and *number* > of his Horcruxes. But from LV's own statement, it appears that his > Death Eaters are aware that they exist. [Which raises another > question--have any of the Death Eaters made Horcruxes for > themselves?] > > > The simplest explanation is that DD was wrong on both counts. LV was > not interested in how his defenses had been penetrated (perhaps > because he believed them to be impenetrable), and LV did not believe > that he was the only one who knew about his Horcruxes. Amiable Dorsai: Later in Voldemort's speech to the Death Eaters, he says: "You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked ... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it." I take it that Voldemort is lying to the DEs here--that they only think they know all of the experiments Riddle has tried to make himself immortal. After all, Riddle's greatest protection for the Horcruxes is the rest of the world's ignorance of their existence. Telling his DEs about them gives them power over him. Let them think it was something else that kept him alive. Against this notion is the fact that RAB apparently knew about at least one of them--maybe the only thing Riddle kept secret from his DEs is the number of Horcruxes. RAB seems to have thought that elininating the locket would be enough to make Voldy vulnerable. Amiable Dorsai From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 19 14:59:11 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:59:11 -0000 Subject: Few Snape teaching DADA scenes (was: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good-ish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138079 oiboyz: > I think JKR has said she enjoys writing Snape, and she must have > been perfectly aware of the possibilities latent in Snape being the > DADA professor, so I can't help but suspect that she had specific > reasons for deliberately *not* showing us much of Snape teaching. > Or else we didn't get many DADA scenes because there wasn't room > for them. I can't help but regret it, though. SSSusan: And I want to know just what Snape proposed was a BETTER means of taking on Dementors than using a Patronus! Remember that assignment, where we're told Harry disagreed with Snape on that topic? Well, what did Snape tell them, darn it? Why didn't we get to hear the lecture or witness the exchange (if there was one)? Seriously, I was sorry the Snape-teaching-DADA scenes were not presented, too, and am curious whether anyone here does have a theory that there was something JKR didn't want us to see... or whether it's just that she didn't wanna go there or didn't feel there was room for them. Siriusly Snapey Susan From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 15:00:04 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Poetic justice (was: The DADA jinx and its victims.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050819150005.99425.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138080 Amiable Dorsai: ...edited... James' and Sirius' feud with Snape arguably led to their dooms.... Juli: Could you please explain to me HOW their feud with Snape led them to their doom? Maybe I've missed some canon, but I just can't see how their dislike and rivalry (to put it that way) led them to their death. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 15:12:59 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:12:59 -0700 Subject: the DADA jinx Message-ID: <006401c5a4d0$7d59b0f0$033b79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 138081 I would like to start by complimenting Carol on her excellent post about the possible ways the DADA jinx has affected events. I have been thinking about this, trying to figure out how to respond, because the whole subject got my brain spinning with possibilities. I'd also like to thank Valky for her comments. The discussion between her and Carol helped me to clarify some things. Was it Valky who suggested the jinx acts on some dark agent in the life of the particular teacher? Well, it is actually both carol and Valky on that I think. However, I am wondering if it actually acts on a character flaw in the teacher, leading that person to unwittingly do Voldemort's will and not do his will. As Valky said, Voldemort is again causing his own downfall by his own jinx. So, here are my thoughts. Quirrel. We are told that Quirrel was smart and curious. Was his curiosity the agent that the jinx used against him? His curiosity led him to go do real world--real wizard world--research, eventually leading him to Voldemort who then possessed him and eventually caused his death. Lockhart Ego! Lockhart's ego, his image was his downfall. His ego couldn't let it out that he was a fraud, so by grabbing Ron's wand and trying to obliviate the boys, he brought on his own destruction. Lupin Ah, Lupin. I am not convinced that he is ESE, but this thought about the jinx could explain what happened to him. Not the map or the feud, but his weakness of personality. His desire to be liked that kept him from telling Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus. His desire to be liked kept him quiet all year. I realize this doesn't exactly fit the climax of him forgetting his potion and rushing off to the shack. But stick with me here, ok? If he had been stronger, and if he had told Dumbledore at the beginning of Sirius' animagus ability, is it possible that Dumbledore could have caught Sirius, heard the whole story of Peter and then captured Peter? There would have been no rushing off of Lupin or Snape to confront anyone in the shack. It could have been handled quietly and smoothly during the school year. Dumbledore would certainly have listened to Sirius and asked Ron to bring scabbers to him. Peter could have been revealed, sent to Azkaban and therefore be unable to go to Voldemort. But Lupin's weakness, his fear of 'fessing up, led to the events we have in POA. Crouch I'm not very detailed on this one either, but his desire to prove himself the dark lord's most faithful supporter could have been the thing that led to his downfall. After all, in a very direct way, it did. Umbridge Arrogance maybe? Perhaps ambition? I'm having a little trouble finding the exact description. She is to me one of the most truly evil characters in the books, but I can't just say her innate evil. However, she is arrogant. She believes he is above everyone else. She believes she must squash lesser beings and has a completely arrogant attitude toward the centaurs for instance. Ambition could also play a part, ambition to an extreme degree. Her ambition to rise in the ministry, to protect the ministry, caused her to send dementors to attack a teenage boy. Her ambition for the ministry causes her to implement the educational decrees, stamp out any opposition or negative comments at the school. She even becomes head mistress. But her desperate ambition causes her to go so far, that she brings the entire school against her, the DA is created, she tries to use truth serum on Harry, tries to crucio him and falls for a hastily contrived lie by Hermione, which ends up taking her to the confrontation with the centaurs. I'm still not happy with the idea of the character flaw being her arrogance or ambition, so anyone feel free to jump in and suggest something better. And now, Snape. I think this can work, no matter which side he is on, or even if he's not on any side but his own. Perhaps a desire to prove himself? I think Snape actually has some self-confidence issues; otherwise, he wouldn't feel it necessary to demean his students or even to continue his grudge against James through Harry. He must feel insecure in himself. That kind of insecurity can make people do some truly horrible things. For Snape, it could have been that being one of the death eaters made him feel important, in the ways Crabbe and Goyle feel important by hanging out with Draco. No, I'm not implying Snape is like then, for he is far more intelligent and clever than we are led to believe they are. But if his insecurity leads him to Voldemort, it could have been that he thought Voldemort could give him something, power prestige, make him bigger than those old tormenters from school. The unbreakable vow, which I do believe is the way the DADA jinx seals Snape's doom, could have been a way for him to make himself feel and seem more important than he believes he is. You know, make him look loyal to Bella, but also a way to be on the inside, part of the in-crowd. Even saying that he thinks Voldemort probably expects him to do whatever it is Draco is supposed to do in the end, could be the words of an insecure person. Hmmm, am I making any sense? I know what I'm trying to say, but I don't think it's coming out very well. If Snape is good, then the insecurity can still be a factor. I don't believe he and Dumbledore planned for him to take the vow in advance, even if he is good. That would mean that they somehow knew he would be asked to do it. However, if he felt he wasn't doing enough, needed somehow to know more, to get in deeper, the insecurity could have made him take the chance, even though he didn't know what the vow would be. I know Snape may seem to come off as being full of pride and confidence, but I've never seen him as such. I've seen him as a person who is not comfortable with his own success and talent and who has to continue to try to find more ways to bolster himself to himself. Whether he is evil or good or only out for Snape's best interest in true Slytherin style, his insecurity can drive him to do things that will actually work against him. The vow became his downfall. He is not dead, but he is most certainly disgraced. If he was Dumbledore's man al along, he is now in an untenable position, because the good guys will never believe it. If he is evil, he has still perhaps interfered with Voldemort's plans by saving Draco. He also is o longer in a position to spy on the order. If he's only out for himself, he is now in a terribly dangerous position, because each side could suspect him. But definitely, he is out of Hogwarts in a dramatic and agonizing way. His insecurity led to his downfall. As for how to break the jinx, i like carol's idea that perhaps Snape and Lupin may have to work together to do that in the end. If Snape is good, it would be wonderful poetic justice, if those two old enemies must come together to break the threads that have twisted all their lives. I don't see how that can happen, but Lupin could be the one Snape could go to to plead his case. I doubt Lupin would shoot him on sight. He didn't even do that to peter in the shack. Lupin could reach Harry as well. It could be a very interesting way to resolve it. Even if Snape is evil, murdered Dumbledore for his own or Voldemort's reasons, if he is to be redeemed, this could begin with Lupin. Perhaps that will be the key to breaking the jinx once and for all. Ok, is it full of holes? Maybe. And I may not have the exact ideas of the personality flaws really fleshed out yet, but I do believe the flaws are keys to the downfall of each DADA teacher. By the way, do they coincide with the seven deadly sins, or any other seven somethings? Sherry Who thanks Carol for taking the time to follow up in an interesting off list discussion and for giving me so much new stuff to think about. Even for making me begin to ponder many imponderables about Snape. ... Again! From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 15:13:24 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:13:24 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138082 > catkind: Hi Valky! I like this theory, which I had missed (along > with everything else round here - I can't keep up at all at the mo). > So perhaps you've answered this already somewhere... > > I'm absolutely with you on RAB=Regulus, we have blatantly been > hinted at. Valky: Thanks Catkind, I had better quickly say this before I answer you, I *did* get a little carried away in my last post, with putting the motive of vengeance into R.A.B.'s letter. The fact is, the letter really doesn't give away a revenge motive, so I should bite back a bit of that now, and admit I ran away with myself somewhat. That said, many of the pieces add up to a motive of revenge if we start with the logical conclusion that the drinking of the potion is how Voldemort extracts the information from his attacker. You kind of have to buy that first, and I have given a decent argument for it, I think. Anyhow, onward with reply to your post catkind. > catkind: > So, in Voldemort's ideal situation, someone drinks some of the > potion then falls down delirious, dying of thirst, so dives > headfirst into the lake and gets eaten by the Inferi, or turned into > one. Meanwhile the remainder of the potion has stored his memories > of why he was there, and replenished itself. Valky: Yeah that's the gist of it. Based on three things we could call pretty much fact in canon. 1. LV wants to know who was there and why. 2. The Potion Drinker will probably die without the water. 3. The potion Drinker is intended to die even if they get the water. #2 and #3 add up to whoever drinks the potion *is* meant to die there and then. So if #1 is true then LV's means of extracting info must have happened before the drinker dies via the effects of the potion. The answer I proposed to this is that the potion and the basin work together. The potion legilimenses the drinker and the basin stores the memories. Once it's all over the potion surely replenishes, because LV would want to keep his locket safe no matter how many tried to destroy it through the ages. He intends to live forever right? So yeah, I think it's likely that as long as this object has something to protect, it will do it's job. This is perhaps why R.A.B. thought bringing a faux Horcrux along would be worth the effort. I admit I am giving this character lots of credit, but lets face it, if someone did this to LV acting virtually (or absolutely) alone they deserve some credit where it's due. This person did /some/ thinking before they went into that cave. > catkind: > RAB comes along and due to his inside knowledge is somehow able to > survive drinking the potion in one piece(ish), or at least sane > enough to switch lockets and fool the basin. This still seems to > make RAB rather powerful, doesn't it? If it's just secret knowledge > that's necessary to get at the locket, I can hardly imagine even > LV's nearest and dearest would be in on the secret. Valky: Yeah I see where you're coming from there. And I have given that some thought. First, let's see, R.A.B. has to know what Horcruxes are. Its a banned subject at Hogwarts, so if it's a young/ish/ character. Say, from Marauders era if we are postulating Reggie, then this person is either a. Not schooled at Hogwarts, or b. very into Dark arts.. perhaps a friend of Severus Snape.. Otherwise, it's someone from an older generation, also very into Dark Arts. But I am not sure that it has to be good character, since uncovering Voldies secret was actually made rather easy for the bad guys.. Let me show you.. LV gives Lucius his diary - tells him that he should plant it at Hogwarts - Lucius is stupid enough *once* to use this powerful object to further his own ambition... Bella is always bragging about her "in"ness with LV - actually anyone who gets a little tidbit from LV tends to brag a bit don't they, seems in character for a DE, no? So heres how I see it, Lucius is doing some bragging, he's the Dark Lords most favoured servant today because LV has entrusted to him, this *really* powerful object.. (whiny bragging tones). Oh, what is it Lucius? Whats this really important thing that LV gave you to guard for him? Uhh I don't know exactly, but it can open the Chamber of Secrets and command the Monster. No it can't Lucius you dope, only the Heir of Slytherin can do that.. Two weeks later.. Hey Reggie, says Bella, Did you know our Master is the Heir of Slytherin.. Pretty cool huh? Forehead slap three weeks later. OMG that thing is not what I think it is... is it...? Rumours are pretty dangerous aren't they? So simple its ridiculous, Voldie has *no* idea, ROFL. seeing as it was *this* easy for the DE's to know what was going on if they could put two and two together. Clearly not Crabbe and Goyles specialty but the *smart* DE's alternately... well.. Okay so then Voldies bragging on and on about *how* immortal he is, "I'm more immortal than Grindelwald was..." he's singing as he skips through the daisies. And darn it this R.A.B person is onto something here. Could Voldemort make this any *easier* to know? The fact is, Voldie was a bit full of himself about it all. I mean he had seven parts of soul, who on earth was gonna figure that out? The DE's got a whole lot more out of him than he ever should have been giving way. But for his determination to have it all, he probably would have had most of it. Of course, remembering that he did make a ton of these things, and protected them quite well, it's understandable that he felt fairly safe bragging. The point is he did brag, and he did give away plenty to his DE's. One can only assume, depending largely on his powers of domination and fearmongering to keep him safe. He tortured these people into submission, and he still does. Wormtail rescued him from a pitiful oblivion of existence, and what is his reward? Here Wormtail, lets painfully remove one of your appendages. So with all that in mind, it's hard to believe that this Horcrux attacker would ever need to be one of the good guys. Now that a DE had specific knowledge of the protections, is more difficult to argue for. However, here's a thing, each wizard has a style. Having a style generally means that you do a lot of things the same way usually. What would be largely needed by any attacker, would be some good powers of observation. So lets say we have a DE, who thinks Voldie is really something special. Is learning from him, and loving it mostly. He sees the basics, weaken the enemy, filter the power of the enemy, remove the power of the enemy, kill the weak enemy, this kid rememebers the routine after seeing it a thousand times. Then he starts seeing specifics, legilimensing, poisons that weaken, torture, vile minions. Voldie does it mostly the same ways. Possibly, this young protege of Voldemort gets bragged to occasionally that *this* is my genius handiwork, I am the greatest wizard of all time and this is why, no wizard could outmatch *this* magic you see me doing. Basically giving himself away by pointing out how great he is when he's using his best tactics. Listening to this long enough you'd know what was going on in the cave somewhat before you got there. That's all fair enough, I hear you say, but R.A.B. needs more specifics than that. Yes it's true, I agree. So the time that this Horcrux was attacked is crucial knowledge. Voldie isn't sharing his secrets, this is true, but if R.A.B. has just two more peices of information, then planning a brilliant attack would become so much easier. What's needed is for Voldie to be planning on making another Horcrux. We know that when Voldie came back from his decade of solitude he still needed two items. The Ravenclaw item, and the Gryffindor item. As long as we are assuming that DD wasn't wide of the mark here, which he probably wasn't, whoever this person is, they need to be watching Voldie as he plans one of these Horcruxes. Since LV returned from his ten year trip around the 60's then I would say that one object was made back in that era, and the last one was meant to be mde at Godrics Hollow. Hence we have 2 generations of DE's to pick from here, who might have noticed Voldie planning Horcrux business and perhaps glimpsed his plans. Reggie *is* in one of those generations, and if he accidentally stumbled upon Voldemort planning his Godric's Hollow Horcrux this could provid him with crucial pieces of information. The final link in the chain is the cave. Whoever R.A.B. is then they must know, about Voldemort's secret place. I don't think a DE could have deduced this the way Dumbledore did. If there was anything Voldie kept close to his chest more than the rest of things then it was his history in the Muggle world, more than anything else. This is not the kind of information that he would have bragged out to his DE's. But then there's Reggie, who's home is full of Wizarding geneology stuff, who's mother is obsessed with tracing family lines. How could a boy like Reggie, who pleased his dear old mum so, not be a little into it too. He was a hero to his pureblood maniac parents, so then are we to assume that he knew what he was talking about when it came to "Natures Nobility" ? Yeah lets go there, back into the Black Mansion. Where the books don't have Voldies name in them. Where the line of Slytherin ends in some obscure corner of Hangleton and there is no heir to the line. Now If Voldemort wanted something known by his DE's, he wanted it *known* that he was the he was from the purest line of all. But if Natures Nobility doesn't have a clue who the hell he his, why does he? Its a small step from there to investigating Voldemorts past. But the cave is still not revealed to a curious Regulus Black here. If anything, the ring is what is discovered. Could a curious Reg skip the ring and go straight to the cave? How? Well I suppose that if it was Regulus Black who discovered the cave, then his LV geneaology trail, ended here. He didn't find out anymore about Voldie this way. The cave was found in some other fashion. And I'm out of ideas. Just as I was about to make the perfect argument, I thought, for a DE R.A.B. I'm stumped. How could anyone at all know about the cave?... Time to hit the books again.. but I might just hit the pillow first ;D yawn.. One final part to answer. > catkind: > But are you saying DD was then seeing the previously stored > thoughts? Valky: Yeah, I think so. The whole thing looks to me like, If it *is* a memory then it has in it: someone backing out of what they are doing, someone seeing loved ones get punished, someone begging for mercy to an evil overlord (its all my fault I did wrong I'll never do it again) and finally someone begging that this person doesn't use unforgivable curse which I think is Crucio. (No not that, I'll do anything, stop no more {screams of agony} Kill Me) It's got Voldie - DE relationship written all over it, I agree with that. (someone postulated this before I did) > catkind: > Shouldn't the potion then be storing *his* reasons for > being there? Or is the enchantment muddled up by now? Okay I have two theories here, which kind of work together. The first is that DD has figured out what the potion is and has a fair idea what it does before he drinks it. DD has different motives to R.A.B., I think, and he doesn't want to leave a trail (R.A.B. did.) so it's possible that he uses Occlumency against the potion for as long as he can. The second theory is that the memory stored beforehand, could be seen by Voldemort, DD ingested it, which caused him to relive it, while he drank. Voldie probably meant for it to be that way, if I am at all on the right track, it would make sense that each attack on his horcrux would be motivated by some form of personal misery in the attacker visited upon them by Voldie, so letting the next drinker relive Voldies conquest of the previous drinker has the added benefit of hurting them even more. But then I could be on the wrong track altogether and the potion might be extracting a painful memory from DD that we get to see him react to. Personally, it would work, but that would leave us with less clues to the identity of R.A.B. and a lot of strange stuff about DD. So I don't know if I want to go that way quite yet this early in the game. Haven't I waffled on enough! Go to bed Valky! :P From oppen at mycns.net Fri Aug 19 15:39:30 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:39:30 -0500 Subject: Merope's Death Message-ID: <003601c5a4d4$744925a0$c0570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 138083 Reading about Tom Riddle's background, a question occurred to me. Basically, it's like this: How do we _know_ that Merope Gaunt Riddle wasn't murdered? How long was she able to keep filling TR, Sr. up with love potions? If her idyll had lasted a while, it could well be that her rotten father and/or brother had gotten back out of Azkaban...and once they were out, the first thing they'd do would be to track down their escaped slave. They would _not_ be amused to find that she'd had a "mud-veined Muggle"'s child, now would they? Between their attitudes and their precarious-at-best hold on sanity, I could see either Marvolo or Morfin, or both of them, killing Merope for having "disgraced the Gaunt family" by her actions. We know that Muggles can't diagnose the Avada Kedavra curse correctly. If Merope was already weak and ill (and, probably, suffering from severe post-partum depression and emotional anguish) all it would have taken would be for either Marvolo or Morfin to slip into the room where she was and cast a quick A-K. The Muggle medicos wouldn't know what had gone wrong, but would ascribe Merope's death to her illnesses. There were no wizards nearby who would even have suspected the A-K. Eric Oppen, longtime HP4GU fixture, newcomer to the_old_crowd. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 15:45:41 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:45:41 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138084 Carol: > What I was getting at though, is that the DADA curse works > Voldemort's will, consciously or unconsciously. In almost all > cases (Umbridge's and Lockhart's are the weakest for the theory) > the DADA teachers are somehow linked to Voldemort and/or their > fall benefits him. > I wanted to make especially clear that in Snape's case, the > Unbreakable Vow is not some random thing that just happens; it's > the agent of the DADA curse. > Also, I don't think it's so much a teacher's Dark side as a secret > that, along with the agent, shapes his fall in a particular way. > Valky: > So lets assume that the curse works in other ways on the > assumption that DD decides to be stubbornly patient with the loss > of the DADA teacher every year, which would be a smart call on > LV's behalf.....But back to the original point now, a third > motive that Voldie might have is to set up the curse in such a > way that it always targets Dumbledore in some way, trying to > eventually remove him from the Headmaster position in vengeance > for his refusal. Jen: I've read and re-read this thread, hoping for something to add because it's such an interesting study in magical effect. And suddenly, inspiration! Mainly because I had a Felix day yesterday :). One of those days when everything you touch turns to gold? Things fall into place, you see the next right move, unexpected pleasures come you way by mail, phone, discussion groups.... Thinking about the Felix potion, we might use the effect of the Felix to study the DADA curse. The ability to make the right choice in each instance with Felix could be the opposite effect of the DADA curse. The DADA curse is insidious because it binds each teacher to his/her weakness to the point of personal destruction. And I don't think people are victims in the sense of choice being taking away, but a person seems to notice only the *wrong* choice to make at each juncture, something which they are pulled to strongly anyway because of a personal weakness. So we see each teacher chart his/her own downfall by choosing a flawed strategy initially, and then allowing personal weakness to complete the destruction. The curse of the DADA aids their destruction by promoting the ability to make wrong choices & ultimately each comes face-to-face with their darkest moment: 1) Quirrell initial strategy: Ill-advised trip to Albania in hopes of learning more about defending the dark arts. Weakness: Moral weakness in the sense he was a 'foolish young man... full of ridiculous ideas about good and evil'; he held no convictions strong enough to willingly join or willingly resist LV's power, though. Consequently he is taken over by Voldemort, used and abandoned. 2)Lockhart's inital strategy: Presenting himself as a Dark Arts expert. Weakness: Desiring fame at all costs. Lockhart ups the ante with each story and each failed bit of magic he performs, to the point he's trapped into the COS rescue by the people who understand he's a fraud. He's ultimately brought down by his one real strength, and cursed to have the memory of his fame erased! (I love the irony of this one). 3)Lupin's inital stategy: Denying his past. Weakness: Wanting to fit in and above all, seeking Dumbledore's approval. Lupin initially hopes to go back to Hogwarts, meet Harry (his past), but not have the demons of his past interfere in any way. At each point where he might be straightforward and truthful with either Harry or Dumbledore, he chooses to remain secretive. Lupin's past slowly begins to infiltrate his current life, first with Harry, then the map, then finally his remaining old friends. His final undoing is the ultimate denial of his alter-ego, the werewolf. (Moody: Gets locked in the truck for a year--he got the worst of the curse, no?!?) 4)Crouch!Moody's initial strategy: Unwavering belief in the Dark Lord's power and the power of evil in general. Weakness: Hubris. In his belief that Voldemort & evil will always prevail, Crouch unwittingly causes Voldemort's downfall in the graveyard by teaching Harry and those around him the skills Harry will need to escape LV. In the end, his hubris allows him to believe he can outwit Dumbledore, and he is ultimately destroyed by the very evil he worships. 5)Umbridge: Belief she can defeat Dumbledore and Harry single- handedly. Weakness: Craving power and desiring approbation from those in power (Fudge). As with all the DADA's, we find out her goal only in hindsight--to bring down Dumbledore, Harry, and ultimately Hogwarts (or reshape it in her own image at any rate). The more she tries to control for this outcome, the more her choices mobilize the forces against her, until she is defeated by the beings she most detests--'half-breeds'. 6)Snape/Voldemort: (I put it this way because I think both were involved in this year's decision) **Initial strategy Voldemort: Defeat Dumbledore; LV presses Snape to get the DADA position either covertly or overtly. DD can't deny Snape this post if it will further his infiltration with Voldemort. **Initial strategy Snape: Desire to teach the dark arts and belief he can defeat the DADA curse. **Weakness Voldemort: his undoing will actually be what he sees as a victory: Dumbledore will be more powerful in death than he was alive. Don't know exactly how yet, but believe this is true . **Weakness Snape: brushing much to close to the dark arts again, both in the classroom and in his affiliation with the DE's & Voldemort. The Unbreakable was the first of his wrong choices from the DADA curse (Carol's thought) and his undoing was being faced with the choice to use an Unforgivable and AK Dumbledore. I think he made the right choice, did not AK him and in doing so, broke the DADA curse. He did lose his greatest advocate though, and his one true defender, which will ulitmately lead to his end--but by which side?!? Jen, who noticed Sherry's similar post while writing this, but hopes there are enough differences for both posts to add to the discussion! From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:10:26 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:10:26 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: <001601c5a4a7$59977900$6dc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138085 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > who exactly do you think the Narrator is? The Narrator is the fellow who says "Then Harry went over there and thought this and that". Actually I've heard a rumor that the Narrator is really a woman but uses a penname. > The Narrator let us believe that > Scabbers was just a rat Not true, the Narrator said Scabbers was a rat and that was perfectly true, the Narrator never said that's all he was. > We were led to believe that Buckbeak > had been executed when he had not. Not true, the Narrator never saw Buckbeak executed, the Narrator heard a chopping sound and a cry of some sort, the Narrator did not say if it was due to grief or joy. > his Avada Kadavra of Snape's, which > is so, to me, blantantly obviously > different than the others the > Narrator also showed Not true, the curse that killed Lilly and James not only left a scar it destroyed a house. > I could continue in this vein for pages Me too. Eggplant From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 16:12:54 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Merope's Death In-Reply-To: <003601c5a4d4$744925a0$c0570043@hppav> Message-ID: <20050819161254.379.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138086 --- Eric Oppen wrote: > Reading about Tom Riddle's background, a question > occurred to me. > > Basically, it's like this: How do we _know_ that > Merope Gaunt Riddle wasn't > murdered? > > True we DON'T know she was killed by familly. But I am more inclined to think that once bro and dad found out waht she did they disowned her and left her to her fates figuring if she slept with 'one of them' she wasn't family no more and washed their hands of her. That is my take anyways. laurie __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:17:45 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:17:45 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (+a Horcrux Thought) In-Reply-To: <43054CC7.4000908@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138087 Kathryn Jones wrote: > I think the only logical move for > Voldemort will be to check each > horcrux to make sure that most > of them are alright. Why? Dumbledore said Voldemort couldn't tell if one of his Harcruxes was destroyed and he has no reason to believe anybody but him even knows about them. Eggplant From Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za Fri Aug 19 06:59:04 2005 From: Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za (Cairie Witter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:59:04 +0200 Subject: Head boy and head girl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138088 ehteshamulh wrote: > Who do you think will be the next Head Boy and Head Girl? > This is, of course, assuming that Hogwarts remains open > during Year 7. Juli: > My bet goes to Harry, he deserves it. Dumbledore for sure > would have given it to him, McGonagall probably will too, > but the question is wether Harry will return to Hogwarts > on his 7th year. I remember that Harry said that he wasn't going to come back. I feel though that he should go back and even study further. He needs all the help he can get. I think that he should do the fighting on his own as well. I know that Ron and Hermione are his friends, but, if some thing happens to them he would feel even more guilty. Cairie From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 19 08:55:34 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:55:34 -0000 Subject: Snape Loyalty Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138089 Hi, Please excuse breaches of etiquette as this is my first post. I'll get better at this... Now I'm a diehard Reformed!Snape believer and will probably weep when/if he dies in book 7. I hate to give out ammunition to the OutforHimself!Snape theory but here goes.. Snape is a Slytherin (Head of House actually...) In OoTP, when Harry attempts to run away from Grimmauld Place, doesn't Phineas Nigellus say something like "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we always choose to save our own necks." So wouldn't Snape save his own neck if he really was wavering between sides? If he had misgivings about whether he was on the right side, he made a choice on that tower. "ellecain" From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 10:10:11 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:10:11 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138090 > catkind: > But when it comes down to it, why would LV have a potion to cause > useful or interesting visions, when he could have one to cause > tormented ramblings? Just a thought: Maybe the potion is protecting the locket based on the fact that what causes the caring Dumbledore deadly anguish (the extreme torment of others) may simply be a pleasure to Voldemort himself. Someone who enjoys other peoples sufferings might just drink the potion and feel none the worse for it?? So Voldemort would be the only wizard evil and uncaring enough to retrieve it on his own. -Mimbletonia From gbethman at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 11:12:17 2005 From: gbethman at yahoo.com (Gopal B) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: <1124443347.1267.31832.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050819111217.63651.qmail@web33506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138091 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) Catkind: > The replaced locket only makes sense to me if it was > replaced *before* being put in the cave, and before > being seen by someone who knew there was a locket but > not which locket. Which would also remove the problem > of self-refilling pensieves - what's the point of a > pensieve that refills after the treasure is stolen? Gopal: I know there is a lot of fan-fiction out there, but some basic contradictions with the canon that I perceived regarding 'refilling pensieve theory'. 1) At no point in canon has anyone had to *drink* a memory. They just touch it to enter the memory. 2) The liquid was not refilling itself, because after 13 goblets Harry/DD were able to retrieve the locket. Only magically generated water was getting drained out. 3) Voldemort acts alone, he is unlikely to have let any DE to place the horcrux in the cave. Come to think of it, he may be thinking that only 3 people (himself, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop) know about the cave at all. 4) DD recognizes LV's style of magic. Some q's about the canon. Please let me know if you have answers for the same. a) In the cave, DD/ Harry could not get their hands close to the liquid due to an invisible barrier. Why did the goblet not face such resistance? b) Why did DD have to drink the liquid? He could have spilt the liquid to empty the basin. c) How did RAB/DD get to know of the cave? Are Amy Benson/ Dennis Bishop still alive? can they give more clues? d) Is the missing horcrux placed in Hogwarts/ Borgin & Burkes? Both places mean much to LV. we also have Harry getting tempted to some of the stuff at B&B in COS. Thanks, Gopal. From LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu Thu Aug 18 20:02:56 2005 From: LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu (Laura Herndon) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:02:56 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. Message-ID: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D9833751D7@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 138092 colebiancardi wrote: > Dumbledore is trusting, but he isn't a fool. He didn't trust > Riddle, he didn't give Riddle a chance when Riddle came to > apply for the DADA job. There is something more going on > with why DD trusts Snape so much, and I am not just speaking > of the 15 years that Snape has been loyal to DD. Thank you for pointing this out. I have read so much made of how blindly trusting Dumbledore is, but all his reactions to Tom Riddle indicate otherwise. If Dumbledore was so stubbornly determined to see good that isn't really there he would been easier on the young man. Instead, he treats Tom Riddle with caution from the beginning. Knowing that Snape has been an active Death Eater, there must have been more to Dumbledore's acceptance than a simple "I've seen the error of my ways". Laura From carodave92 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 14:12:55 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:12:55 -0000 Subject: Amelia Bones = RAB? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138093 Auria wrote: > R.A.B - could this be Amelia Bones? Carodave replies: During Harry's hearing in OotP, her name is noted in Percy's log as Amelia Susan Bones. Auria wrote: > could this mean Amelia Bones was a secret Death > Eater? There is some sense to this in that the DEs have > spies in the Ministry of Magic so its very possible. She > could also have been the one to have put Herbert Chorley > under the Imperius curse. Carodave replies: After the DEs escape Azkaban in OotP, Susan Bones gets additional attention at school, as a member of the Bones family, who suffered severe losses during Voldemort's rise to power. (I think Moody mentions this as well when he shows Harry the photo of original Order members). I can't believe that Jo would make a member of the Bones family a DE when the family is so hard hit by the DEs. I realize that Sirius is killed by his cousin Bellatrix, but that is more of a one-on-one situation, not a whole family being destroyed. Also, Arthur Weasley respects Amelia Bones and I don't remember him ever having been wrong (except re Percy - and I still have faith that he'll come around). Carodave From darkcorgi at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 14:32:20 2005 From: darkcorgi at yahoo.com (Corgi) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050819143221.67552.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138094 Chris wrote: >> These things all are all mysterious to me, and I would appreciate any theories you may have. The DD we knew throughout the series was absent in this story, and I am wondering why. Where was Fawkes throughout the whole thing...how could Malfoy (Malfoy!!!!)get the best of him...why on earth would DD proclaim that he was not worried because he was with Harry? Very uncharacteristic... << Corgi: That whole bothered me throughout the book, especially the end. Fawkes was there when Dumbledore dueled with Voldemort, but not when the man was surrounded by Death Eaters. That led me to believe that the cornered man wasn't Dumbledore, but someone impersonating him with the polyjuice potion. After all there was a cauldron full of the potion at the beginning of the book along with the luck potion. My main choice for the impersonator would be Pettigrew (the silver hand blackening since we don't know the polyjuice's reaction to dealing with magical limbs present in the one taking the potion), taking the luck potion to help him get away with not alarming anyone to the very obvious discrepancies in his behavior. Also the look of revulsion and loathing on Snape's face in the tower would have a very logical reason as well as the lack of Fawkes. Since Pettigrew wasn't the world's most compentant wizard in his youth, Draco would be able to disarm him. I'm sure there are a ton of holes in this theory since I haven't done a second read through for the book yet. I plan on rereading the whole series once I find my copy of PoA. Corgi From angelicfront5 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 14:32:53 2005 From: angelicfront5 at yahoo.com (Lauren Thibeault) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050819143253.24576.qmail@web31805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138095 > Finwitch: > > Because Dumbledore believed his story. That's it. > > There is no secret reason (although Tonks &co. feel > > more comfortable to belive there was), just that. > > Dumbledore trusted Severus Snape simply because > > Dumbledore is a trusting man. Because Dumbledore > > believes very firmly in the principle of 'innocent > > until proven guilty'. > Hickengruendler: > I disagree. I think this is what JKR wants us to > believe, but this contradicts what we know > about Dumbledore, IMO. He is not that trusting. He > didn't trust Tom Riddle. > > And yet this man doesn't waver a second in his trust > in someone who was not only a Death Eater, but who > also was as a student probably as much in the Dark > Arts as Tom Riddle was? I really don't think so. I > still believe Dumbledore knows more about Snape than > we do, and that's why he trusts him. I am definitely one of those who think Snape is not evil. There are a lot of reasons but one that has yet to come up in posts that I have seen so far: in the first book during one of Snape's encounters at Hogwarts with Quirrell he directly tells Quirrell that he will need to figure out where his loyalties lie. I think he has always been working for Dumbledore and we just aren't sure exactly what happened to make Snape turn from the "dark side". Lauren From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:59:29 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:59:29 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: <78.796345b8.30364ec9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138096 juli17 at a... wrote: > I am still convinced that we really > do not know if Snape murdered Dumbledore. If you were a novelist and you wanted one of your characters to get murdered what more could you have done than what JKR did in HBP to convince readers that the character has indeed been murdered? Eggplant From spaighter at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 16:02:28 2005 From: spaighter at yahoo.com (spaighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:02:28 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138097 > catkind: > A Potion that makes you see possible futures? Interesting > idea. I was also wondering about those babblings - the > first sounded almost like it could be a childhood throwback > - but the second did rather sound like protecting his > students from something. The whole time I was reading that part, it seemed to me that DD was acting like one of the children VM took the cave the first time. The potion could have brought DD to the original killings in the cave in the eyes of the ones VM tortured. spaighter From cquinn at mn.rr.com Fri Aug 19 16:49:00 2005 From: cquinn at mn.rr.com (twobeaglegirl) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:49:00 -0000 Subject: In the cave... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138098 I'm sorry if this theory has been explored before, but has anyone considered the possibility that the horcrux in the cave could have possibly been the liquid in which the locket was immersed, and not the locket itself? It might explain why drinking it caused DD so much anguish, and it could also tie into the necessity of "notESE!Snape" having to AK him, so that the horcrux (now inside DD) would be destroyed. Just a thought. --2 beagles From guzuguzu at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 16:55:11 2005 From: guzuguzu at yahoo.com (guzuguzu) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:55:11 -0000 Subject: Fenrir Greyback - literary parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138099 and then Geoff: > Another thought I would like to run past other members is whether > Fenrir is his real given name or a nickname. Agreed he is a > werewolf but when did he become one? I can't see anyone naming a > child after the monstrous wolf of Norse mythology. Thank you for your research! My opinion is that's his given name. So many of JKR's characters have meaningful names that are puns, jokes, or clues, but I think these are for the entertainment purposes of us, the audience. I cannot recall a time in the books when a character commented on the "meaningfulness" of another's name (with the possible exception of Peeves calling Lupin "Loony Lupin", but I think that was a clue for us). I think we're supposed to assume that the characters don't realize that they have clever names! guz. From spaighter at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 16:06:06 2005 From: spaighter at yahoo.com (spaighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:06:06 -0000 Subject: Lockets (Was Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138100 > catkind: > If you insist LV put the locket in the cave, however, you have > to explain both how the unknown RAB comes to be stronger than > Dumbledore, and why he or she bothers to put in a fake Horcrux > and replace the potion. He was expecting to be dead, and seems > to have wanted LV to know about it, or why leave the note in > the first place? One other thought is that Regulus had Kreacher with him to grab the locket and make him drink all the potion like Harry did for DD. I believe that Kreacher has the locket in his room at Grimmauld Place. Spaighter From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 19 17:15:01 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:15:01 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Note: this is a repost with a new subject line. I'm deleting the original [etc.] houyhnhnm: An excellent summation and interpretation of the DADA jinx. I have nothing to add except a possible mechanism in the case of Umbridge--an abstract mechanism. It is the need to have her boot in someone's face and the willingness to engage in reckless behavior to satisfy that craving. Presumably she has kept this somewhat in check before coming to Hogwarts. She has risen to a high level of prestige within the Ministry (though I suspect she has always been a kiss-up-kick-down sort of gal). Then in the summer before assuming the DADA position she takes the dangerous (dangerous to her if she's caught) step of setting dementors on Harry. Could this be the first manifestation of the jinx? It is the same arrogance and recklessness that causes her ultimate downfall among the Centaurs. From ragingjess at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:52:11 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:52:11 -0400 Subject: Snape Loyalty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138102 "ellecain" wrote: > Please excuse breaches of etiquette as this is my first > post. I'll get better at this... > > Now I'm a diehard Reformed!Snape believer and will > probably weep when/if he dies in book 7. > > I hate to give out ammunition to the OutforHimself!Snape > theory but here goes.. > Snape is a Slytherin (Head of House actually...) > > In OoTP, when Harry attempts to run away from Grimmauld > Place, doesn't Phineas Nigellus say something like > "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. > For instance, given the choice, we always choose > to save our own necks." > > So wouldn't Snape save his own neck if he really was > wavering between sides? If he had misgivings about > whether he was on the right side, he made a choice on > that tower. Hey there! My first post as well... I think Snape would absolutely save his own neck, not because he's so afraid of dying (he's not been shown as a physical coward, just an emotional one), but because he needs to see his own personal agenda out to the end. (I've only been on this list for a couple of days, so forgive me if I'm repeating.) I think Snape's endgame is the destruction of Voldemort (either for revenge or glory, although I don't think he wants to replace him as the Big Bad, and he'll use any means necessary to do it. (I shall now privately refer to him as "Severus X.") In this, he is absolutely on the side of the Order, but he's not unambiguously good. And ellecain, I think we should be prepared to bid adieu to our dear Severus, because if he's playing this game, he's either going to end up dead or in Azkaban. Jessica ******************* "It's not a lie. It's what would be true if the facts were different." (Malcolm in the Middle) From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Aug 19 17:21:32 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:21:32 -0000 Subject: Fenrir Greyback - literary parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marika_thestral" wrote: > Marika: > > In Sweden boys are actually being namned Loke (Loki), so why not Fenrir? > > Grayback does not sound like a translation of a Nordic name thou. Varg > (wolf) is the closest I can think of. Geoff: Perhaps I didn't make myself totally clear - I was thinking of Fenrir as a nickname, although Greyback could be a family name or a nickname referring to his appearance.... After all, all the wolves I have mentioned, Fenris/Fenrir, Maugrim or Managarm are all grey and nasty. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 17:08:35 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:08:35 -0000 Subject: the DADA jinx In-Reply-To: <006401c5a4d0$7d59b0f0$033b79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138104 Sherry wrote: > By the way, do they coincide with the seven deadly sins, > or any other seven somethings? Ceridwen: I thought the same thing. First, though, I wondered if the vices you mentioned could have been an ever-rotating litany of the strengths of the four houses. When you posted: Lupin *(Snip)* ...His desire to be liked that kept him from telling Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus. His desire to be liked kept him quiet all year. I suddenly thought, his loyalty. To the Marauders, to the memory of the dead, to Sirius the friend of his childhood no matter how he turned out later. His loyalty kept the secret of his friends long after they would not be punished for it by Dumbledore, though if they were caught being unregistered it could cause some problems. Loyalty is a Hufflepuff trait. Then, Snape, who blanches at being called a coward. The opposite of coward is brave, Gryffindor. So, two houses down, four professors to go... But the only thing I could come up with for Lockhart is sloth, the avoidance of work. Being lazy. Relying on others to do his job. Which Lockhart seems to do by letting another wizard do the deed, then Obliviating him. Envy came in second, he envied the powers of others and took them for his own. Maybe Quirrell's 'sin' is pride. He thinks so much of his powers as an expert in Defense Against the Dark Arts that he walks straight into danger. He believes, in this pride, that nothing can harm him. Or, it could be envy of the experiences of others that he only teaches from books. He wants to go out and make a name for himself. I would say Umbridge suffered from greed if this is indeed a litany of the Seven Deadly Sins. She wants more and more and more. She gets the DADA position. She then steps up to become the High Inquisitor. Then, the next logical step, headmistress. Stepping stones to power, glory, ALL. Greed is the desire for material wealth and gain, ignoring all other types of wealth. But here, I get bogged down. I can't decide for Crouch. Gluttony? Envy? Lust? Anger? Or should we try to fathom Moody's reasons for taking the job? And, since Snape is not a new character, should we then assign the 'sin' to Slughorn, the new character? For Snape, the only possible answer is envy, with lust a close second possibility. He has envied that position for years. Or, he has 'lusted after it'. I don't think he would be anger, the one instance of him in class (weren't there two? Or am I just fixating on two halves of one class session?) don't really show an angry Snape. Not nearly so much as Snape was angry and vindictive in Potions. So, I don't know. Rotating house qualities which bring people down? We would need more information to guess that. We know or assume (I don't recall the canon for this, so I'll be safe) that Quirrell left once after his year, was gone for a year, then came back as Quirrellmort. What about the others who went before him? The Seven Deadly Sins: Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed, Sloth The Seven Heavenly Virtues: faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, prudence The Seven Contrary Virtues, proposed by Prudentius around AD 410: humility, kindness, abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence The Contrary Virtues are designed to be the opposites of each Deadly Sin. I got the list at http://www.deadlysins.com/ Ceridwen. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 17:27:00 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:27:00 -0000 Subject: Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138105 Lealess; > From the latest Mugglenet/TLC interviews, which have been making my > life miserable: > > "MA: Does she [Ginny] have a life debt to Harry from book two? > JKR: No, not really. Wormtail is different. You know, part of me > would just love to explain the whole thing to you, plot of book seven, > you know, I honestly would." > > There is an essay on LiveJournal about this (user: safakus), but the > essay is more about the proper path to redemption than the nature of a > life debt. I thought it was interesting that Wormtail owes a life > debt, but Ginny does not. The author of the LJ essay speculates that > Harry had the right to retribution for the death of his parents, but > he decided instead to let Wormtail live, and that created the life > debt. There was no such claim on Ginny's life, hence, no life debt. > > Which has me thinking about Severus' life debt to James. Even though > Severus disavows it somewhat, Dumbledore and probably Voldemort > recognize it, and it still seems to be operative and, moreover, to > transfer to Harry. > > I wonder if a similar dynamic to Wormtail's occurred when Severus' > debt was incurred. I wonder if James somehow had a right to make a > claim against Severus for something, but decided instead to save his > life, i.e., saving his life alone was not enough to create a life > debt. It sounds far-fetched; I can't think of any clues that would > suggest what Snape might have owed James. (There are clues, right?) > Or maybe the life debt is created through a totally different dynamic. > Or maybe Snape never really had a life debt; it was all a smokescreen. > > Anyway, I thought I'd throw it out for speculation. These questions > intrigue me, but then my brain starts hurting. > > lealess Antosha-- I actually enjoyed the interviews, though, yes, they did rather make a hash of a number of assumptions that I had been fairly confident of--Ginny's life debt being the most obvious. I've been thinking about the debt question a bit obsessively--to do with a fic that I started writing during the five days between the release of HBP and the appearance of the final chapter of the famous interview. I'd constructed the fic around the idea that a) Ginny might in fact be a Horcrux (oops) and that b) she owed a life debt to Harry (big double oops). I think your idea is definitely one way of looking at it, and it has some interesting implications. The idea that the life debt is actually sort of a geas or binding that is semi- consciously laid on the person saved... It makes it a much less selfless act. I don't think that JKR would necessarily back the idea that Harry had a RIGHT to kill Peter, however. I think that what she showed in the Shrieking Shack was that the desire was there, and that if, in hot blood, he had taken his revenge, as Remus and Sirius wanted to do, it would have been understandable and, perhaps, somewhat forgivable, but not necessarily justified. There is another way of distinguishing among live-saving acts, I think, that might explain why, say, Snape owes James (and therefore Harry) but Ginny does not. If the act that triggers a debt requires that the life-saver actually risk his/her life by stepping between the person in debt and their doom, then that would mean that Harry, though he definitely saved Ginny, Arthur and Ron's lives, would not have incurred life debts on them. It would explain why Healers at St. Mungo's don't have retinues of bodyguards who are bound to them for saving their lives. Harry's father stepped between Snape and Wolf!Lupin. And Harry stepped between Peter and a Sirius who was closer to crazy than not, and a Remus who was within a half an hour. They are literally on the point of killing Peter when Harry steps in the way and stops them. Looking at that scene, Harry is not aware that his life is in danger--he's more worried about the moral dilemma--but it seems to me that he definitely saves Peter's life, and he definitely risks his own, even if the two men would never choose to kill him. An interesting paradox arises from this scenario, of course: Harry would owe a life debt to his mother. And since, like his father, his mother has died, Harry owes this debt to her heir--himself. Antosha From nawyecka at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 17:40:30 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's master plan Message-ID: <20050819174030.63251.qmail@web60421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138106 Dumbledore was going to die at some point, so that Harry could stand on his own. If there was some prearraingment between Snape and Dumbledore, suggesting some master plan of Dumbledore encompassing even his own death, Harry could never be said to be really on his own. He would merely be a piece on a chess board, with Dumbledore as the chess master actually moving the pieces Dumbledore may have had a plan, but for Harry to be truly on his own, that plan needed to be rendered fully moot. Snape acting in league with Dumbledore does not acconplish this. Only a Snape, acting as betrayer and murderer could accomplish this, surprising Dumbledore and countering Dumbledore and his plan at this, the most inopportune of moments. Dumbledore may have had a contingency is case his plans fell apart. This accounts for his insistance that Harry tell Ron and Hermione everything. So in the event that Dumbledore and his plan failed, his proxy, that is Ron and Hermione, would be there to pick up the pieces, guiding Harry in ways possibly unforseen by Dumbledore. Dumbledore would surely know that there are many roads to the same destination, many of them unexpected and unforseen by him. .Also, the death of Dumbledore at that moment was most untimely. Think of the unanswered questions, much of it information Harry will need. Dumbledore would not have chosen this moment to die, leaving Harry less than ready. This, I believe, accounts for Dumbledore's plea. He was not begging for himself, but for Harry. He would never beg on his own behalf, but he would do anything for Harry, even beg. Snape the betrayer, Snape the murderer, executing Dumbledore before Dumbledore could fully prepare Harry, truly leaves Harry on his own; unprepared to face, let alone defeat Voldemort. And with only his friends to aid him, he will be, I believe, precisely where JKR wants him to be. Larry ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From etoile.lps at wanadoo.fr Fri Aug 19 17:18:31 2005 From: etoile.lps at wanadoo.fr (lisastenstrom) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:18:31 -0000 Subject: Head boy and head girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138107 Cairie Witter wrote: > I remember that Harry said that he wasn't going to come back. > I feel though that he should go back and even study further. > He needs all the help he can get. Cairie, If Hogwarts does stay open I don't see Harry spending a great deal of time there so I can't see him being Head Boy. I've thought for a while that it'll be Hermione and Ernie MacMillan. Lisastenstrom From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 18:07:15 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:07:15 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's trap (Lockets Re: The magically refilling Pensieve) In-Reply-To: <20050819111217.63651.qmail@web33506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138108 Gopal: > Some q's about the canon. Please let me know if you > have answers for the same. > > a) In the cave, DD/ Harry could not get their hands > close to the liquid due to an invisible barrier. Why > did the goblet not face such resistance? Jen: The protections in the cave were definitely a trap, and each barrier overcome actually lured the prey further into the web. We didn't get to see this with the archway and the boat because DD was able to get past those fairly easily. A less-skilled person would have made it to the boat, then raised the Inferi because their magical 'weight' would not be great enough. So by the time you get to the potion, you are invested in making it all the way to the Horcrux. Why else would you bother to find this remote cave or attempt to unlock the dark magic inside? You hope to gain something. So, a person will 'exert his best efforts, exercise considerable ingenuity, and leave no depth of cunning unplumbed' to paraphrase Dumbledore ;). Determining the potion has to be drunk is two-fold I think. First, Voldemort is making a sadistic little joke, forcing someone who desperately wants the Horcrux to drink an unknown potion. This idea must delight him immensely, to exercise that kind of power and control. LV knows someone who has made it this far will *not* choose to walk away empty-handed. Second, not many people have a skilled potions master at their disposal to counter the effects--DD has two at Hogwarts! So, most people would face certain death by choosing to move forward. So you drink the potion and what happens? You crave water more desperately than ever before and only by drinking the Inferi lake water can you quench your thirst. Zap! Voldemort has you in his web. I'm certain there was something in that water more deadly than the potion, and if you aren't taken by the Inferi, the water will destroy you in some other way. Now Dumbledore and Harry were saved by two things: Harry was unable to get that water into DD's mouth and DD, by some incredible internal strength (or perhaps an antidote taken prior to the cave adventure?)was able to overcome the effects of the potion and create the ring of fire. Gopal: > b) Why did DD have to drink the liquid? He could have > spilt the liquid to empty the basin. Jen: I think he proved that wasn't the case by trying every other option first. If anyone could figure out an alternative, we're led to believe Dumbledore could--he wasn't the greatest wizard ever for nothing. :) Gopal: > c) How did RAB/DD get to know of the cave? Are Amy > Benson/ Dennis Bishop still alive? can they give more > clues? Jen: The greatest unsolved mystery. Not that Dumbledore could find the cave, but that someone else apparently found it first. Canon presents no one who knows what Dumbledore has researched so carefully about Riddle's past, his magical abilities and obsessions, and his Horcruxes. No one should be able to find the cave AND know there's a Horcrux there. But someone does. ????? Now you brought up my own favorite theory: Amy Benson is actually RAB and is a witch as well (she acted strange after the cave incident, after all ). Seemingly unknown to both Voldemort and Dumbledore, Amy is either a person we've already met, in disguise, or someone we haven't met yet. But she's obsessively followed Tom Riddle all these years and plotted her revenge. Of course, there's the tiny problem she would be *dead* now as the note says, but is the note wrong? Did she make it out alive and find someone to counteract the potion? Bwahahaha! Jen, enjoying herself way to much today and needing to get down to business. "We must try not to sink beneath our anguish, Harry, but battle on." From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 18:13:05 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:13:05 -0000 Subject: In the cave... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "twobeaglegirl" wrote: > > I'm sorry if this theory has been explored before, but has anyone > considered the possibility that the horcrux in the cave could have > possibly been the liquid in which the locket was immersed, and not > the locket itself? > > It might explain why drinking it caused DD so much anguish, and it > could also tie into the necessity of "notESE!Snape" having to AK > him, so that the horcrux (now inside DD) would be destroyed. > > Just a thought. > > --2 beagles Richard here: I think this is a very interesting theory, but see one major problem with it. JKR has stated that when she wants to present information to the reader, she generally uses Dumbldore or Hermione to do so. Dumbledore had said that Voldemort seemed to be fascinated with historically significant objects, particularly those associated with Hogwarts' founders, such as the locket, the ring and such, and had in fact used the ring as a horcrux. The potion would not be in any sense that I can think of "historically signficant." A second problem, a bit on the physiological side, is that if the liquid is the horcrux, and a person drinks it, what is there to keep the drinker from urinating it away? Sure, if it is a potion, JKR can make such a thing work as such, but you still run into the problem of the person being mortal, and the fragment of Voldemort's soul bourn by that person now being possibly effectively mortal right along with that person ... and I can't see Voldemort doing such a thing except as a temporary expedient. Much though I like this theory, I think it opens a lot of different cans of worms when it comes to explaining how and why. Richard, who isn't always all that imaginative From eileennicholson at aol.com Fri Aug 19 18:15:07 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:15:07 EDT Subject: Finding the Cave (was Lockets) Message-ID: <159.57600429.30377bab@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138110 Valky asked: >Could a curious Reg skip the ring and go straight to the cave? How? Eileen: I have a suggestion. Unless the cave is a popular holiday spot, Voldie couldn't rely on thirsty passing tourists to provide his Horcrux-protecting Inferi supply. If its an of-the-way place, its probably doubling as a parking lot for Inferi in between assignments - where better as cold storage to conceal a whole army of them? But for that kind of operation he would need a reliable parking attendant - who better than that new kid, Reg, fresh out of school? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Fri Aug 19 18:15:42 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:15:42 -0000 Subject: Merope's Death In-Reply-To: <20050819161254.379.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, laurie goudge wrote: > > > --- Eric Oppen wrote: > > > Reading about Tom Riddle's background, a question > > occurred to me. > > > > Basically, it's like this: How do we _know_ that > > Merope Gaunt Riddle wasn't > > murdered? > > > > > > True we DON'T know she was killed by familly. But I am > more inclined to think that once bro and dad found out > waht she did they disowned her and left her to her > fates figuring if she slept with 'one of them' she > wasn't family no more and washed their hands of her. > > That is my take anyways. > > laurie I think that Merope was not murdered as Mrs. Cole at the orphanage said she died within the hour after giving birth to Tom. Cheryl From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 18:29:12 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:29:12 -0000 Subject: Merope's Death In-Reply-To: <003601c5a4d4$744925a0$c0570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138112 Eric Oppen asked: "How long was she able to keep filling TR, Sr. up with love potions? If her idyll had lasted a while, it could well be that her rotten father and/or brother had gotten back out of Azkaban...and once they were out, the first thing they'd do would be to track down their escaped slave." (snip) "We know that Muggles can't diagnose the Avada Kedavra curse correctly. If Merope was already weak and ill (and, probably, suffering from severe post-partum depression and emotional anguish) all it would have taken would be for either Marvolo or Morfin to slip into the room where she was and cast a quick A-K." Del replies: Interesting idea, though I disagree on some details. 1. It can't be Morfin, because of the timeline. We know that Morfin got 3 years in Azkaban, while Marvolo got only 6 months. We know that by the time Marvolo got back, he found an inch of dust in his house, so Merope had eloped with Tom Riddle for at least a couple of months already. And finally we know that Merope had Tom Jr about a year after the marriage. So by that time, Morfin was still in Azkaban, but not Marvolo. (All factual details come from the chapter "The House of Gaunt") 2. It can't be an AK, because the Ministry would have known. They can't say who performed a curse, but they do know when, where and on whom a curse has been performed. For example, they didn't know for sure that it was Morfin who had jinxed Tom Sr, but they knew when and where the jinx had been performed, and on whom, which is how they deducted who had done it. So if an AK had been performed in a Muggle orphanage, the MoM would have known, and DD would know that Merope had been so murdered. 3. I can't imagine that Marvolo would have left the newborn Tom alive, if he'd killed Merope. But there are other possibilities, namely poison or a slower curse. It is possible that Marvolo, not wanting to go back to Azkaban so soon, chose a more anonymous way of killing Merope. It is even possible that the curse was on the locket Merope had, a curse that was supposed to slowly and painfully kill any rightful owner of the Slytherin heirloom that would sell it outside of the family - it does sound like the kind of thing the Gaunts would do. Moreover, this curse/poison possibility would enhance the amazing and very consistent contrast between Lily/Harry and Merope/Tom. Lily left a love protection in Harry's blood. Could it be that Tom was born to a cursed mother? This would make him a cursed baby, which would help explain why he was so weird and scary right from the beginning (note: psychology and genetics are enough to explain Tom's abnormal behaviour even as a baby, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of a magical curse on top of it). So I do think that you might be on to something that would explain both Merope's untimely death and Tom's "inborn" evilness. A slow poison could even explain why Merope made all the strange choices she seems to have made: stop feeding Love Potion to Tom Sr, not use magic to help herself, and why she looked so destitute when she sold the locket. JMO, Del From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 19 19:42:51 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:42:51 -0000 Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <20050819143221.67552.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138113 > Chris wrote: > >> These things all are all mysterious to me, and I would > appreciate any theories you may have. The DD we knew throughout > the series was absent in this story, and I am wondering why. > Where was Fawkes throughout the whole thing...how could Malfoy > (Malfoy!!!!)get the best of him...why on earth would DD proclaim > that he was not worried because he was with Harry? Very uncharacteristic... << > Marika: Chris also wrote that he/she finds Dumbledore's behavior at the Dursley's strange. But since Dumbledore knows that 12 Grimauld Place is the headquarter, it seems likely to be him. Snape tells Bellatrix that he can't give that away because he's not the secret keeper, and she seems to accept that that's the case. > Corgi: > > That whole bothered me throughout the book, especially the end. Fawkes was there when Dumbledore dueled with Voldemort, but not > when the man was surrounded by Death Eaters. That led me to > believe that the cornered man wasn't Dumbledore, but someone > impersonating him with the polyjuice potion. After all there > was a cauldron full of the potion at the beginning of the book > along with the luck potion. My main choice for the impersonator > would be Pettigrew (the silver hand blackening since we don't > know the polyjuice's reaction to dealing with magical limbs > present in the one taking the potion), taking the luck potion to > help him get away with not alarming anyone to the very obvious > discrepancies in his behavior. Also the look of revulsion and > loathing on Snape's face in the tower would have a very logical > reason as well as the lack of Fawkes. Since Pettigrew wasn't the > world's most compentant wizard in his youth, Draco would be able > to disarm him. Marika: That thing about the arm bothers me too. At first I thought of PP myself, but I can't see how that would fit in to the part that he owes Harry for his life. I expect him to live a bit longer, so that he can somehow pay back. Another thing I find a bit weird is that Dumbledore instead of taking his own memories out of his head, he takes them from a bottle. Why? I can see why he stores other people's memories like that, but surely he can take his own memories out of his own head???? From eileennicholson at aol.com Fri Aug 19 19:45:14 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:45:14 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape Message-ID: <1ad.3d114f2f.303790ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138114 Hickengruendler: >I still believe Dumbledore knows more about Snape than we do, and that's why he >trusts him. Eileen: Now that JKR has told us how it works, I speculate that Dumbledore could rely on Sevvie's trustworthiness if every time he came back from an assignation with Voldy or the DEs he dropped the full set of memories in Dumbledore's Pensieve. This could have started originally with his memory of repeating the prophecy to Voldie, and of events at GH (if he was present or when he first heard about them), so that Dumbledore would know about his remorse almost at first hand, and could then speak of it confidently to Harry. If Sevvie has done this over the years, it could have become almost automatic, and it would then be hard for him to keep to himself the full text of the Unbreakable Vow. And Dumbledore would then be able to judge for himself, just as we have done, whether Sevvie knew what Draco's task was before he promised to become a potential deputy for him. EDINBURGH, SCOTLAND, July 2005 MA: One of our Leaky ?Ask Jo? poll winners is theotherhermit, she's 50 and lives in a small town in the eastern US. I think this was addressed in the sixth book, but, ?Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?? JKR: It?s reality. It?s important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. ES: I was dead wrong about that. JKR: Really? ES: I thought for sure that it was your interpretation of it. It didn?t make sense to me to be able to examine your own thoughts from a third-person perspective. It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be able to look at things from someone else's point of view. MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself? JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 19:47:06 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:47:06 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138115 Valky wrote: > > Carol earlier: > > What I was getting at though, is that the DADA curse works > > Voldemort's will, consciously or unconsciously. In almost all cases (Umbridge's and Lockhart's are the weakest for > > the theory) the DADA teachers are somehow linked to Voldemort and/or their fall benefits him. Quirrell's connection is obvious, as is Crouch!Moody's. Lockhart is supposedly on his way to deal with the basilisk when the DADA curse strikes. Even Umbridge, my weakest example, is linked to Voldemort by the Dementors she sends after Harry and the Crucio she tries to cast on him. Lupin's fall releases Wormtail and Snape's fall kills Dumbledore, both clear advantages for Voldemort regardless of the will of the DADA teacher involved. > > > Valky: > Yeah wow, when you put it that way. I like the notion that you propose Carol, that when the DADA teacher falls it is to Voldies benefit. It works quite well for all the teachers, except maybe for Crouch Carol responds: I just realized that Crouch!Moody is not the teacher Dumbledore hired, which may be the way around that apparent exception to the rule. Clearly the real Moody's fall (being placed in his own trunk as the result of his paranoia backfiring) is to Voldemort's advantage, as is having Crouch!Moody in his place. I suppose Voldemort didn't care that Crouch!Moody would be revealed and destroyed by the DADA curse. He intended simply to use him and discard him. His advantage occurred through the curse falling on the real Alastor Moody. (Obviously the explanation isn't perfect and some examples work better than others, but I think the general pattern of the DADA curse working the will of Voldemort is clear, and he cares no more about his supporters than his enemies once they've worked his will.) Valky: > So what then when it comes time for Harry's sixth year DADA teacher? > Why would he [Dumbledore?] choose Snape ? If Dumbledore has trusted Severus all these years, then why? Snape has always been > available for the DADA job, which would imply, if we assume the above, that Snape was always capable of removing DD from the Headmasters role, someway. I have really talked my way into a corner here, Carol responds: I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think you're asking why DD would offer Snape the position when he knew full well who had placed the curse and the dangers it would pose to his most trusted and most able helper, Severus Snape. (If that's not what you mean, please repose the question and I'll try again.) The way I see it is that Dumbledore protected Snape from the DADA curse as long as he could, but when his need for Snape's expertise at DADA coincided with his need for Horace Slughorn (who couldn't be made DADA teacher without being betrayed by his own secret and perhaps falling into Voldie's hands), he either offered Snape the DADA position, possibly reminding him of the jinx and giving him the choice, or he accepted Snape's application for the post (reminding him of his danger), which again would be Snape's choice. If, on the other hand, DD insisted on Snape's taking the position, he would be playing into Voldemort's hands and forcing Snape into the very risky position he had protected him from for fifteen years. I don't think DD would do that given the emphasis he places on choice. They could not have entered blindly into a contract that they knew would mean the end of their relationship as teacher and headmaster and which they knew presented terrible dangers for Snape if not for both. Voldemort's advantage in having Snape as DADA teacher is clear, whether he's consciously directing the curse or letting it work his will without direction, which I think is the case. He wants Snape to kill Dumbledore, which might be why he ordered young Severus to apply for the job in the first place, though he only told him he was sending him to Hogwarts as a spy. LV knew the curse would act to his own advantage and Severus's undoing, and he wouldn't care about the consequences to his servant once he had "done the deed." Nothing of the sort happened, of course, because Dumbledore hired Snape as Potions Master and Voldemort himself was vaporized a mere two months later. (We don't know what happened to the unfortunate person who was hired as DADA teacher in his stead.) The problem seems to be Snape himself (naturally). I think he continually applied for the position as part of his cover in case LV returned, knowing that he wouldn't be hired because DD was protecting him from the jinx (and from himself). But the question is why he accepted it once it was actually available to him. Did he see it as his just reward for fifteen years of loyalty to Dumbledore? Surely not. He was well aware of the grim fates of his predecessors, particularly those loyal to Voldemort (ironically, the only ones who died or were utterly destroyed). I don't think either he or Dumbledore knew that the curse would work Voldemort's will (surely if DD knew that, he'd have stopped teaching hiring DADA teachers long before), but both of them certainly knew that it could result in his death or some other disastrous consequence. Maybe Snape felt that he had no choice; Dumbledore needed him to take that position and the time had come to accept it. Maybe he felt that he and Dumbledore working together could overcome the jinx given their combined intellect and power. Even after he saw the form the jinx (or curse) had taken, the third provision of the Unbreakable Vow, he must have had some hope that he would not have to murder Dumbledore. He certainly didn't rush in to kill him when they were alone together or push Draco into doing it. He seems to have done the best he could to simultaneously thwart and protect Draco, knowing that Dumbledore would not allow himself to be alone with the boy and trusting to the protections against Death Eaters that Dumbledore had placed on the school. We know he didn't know about the linked vanishing cabinets, and IMO he could not have anticipated that Dumbledore the Death Eaters would enter the school just at the point when Dumbledore most needed his skill at countering Dark Curses. When he reaches the top of the stairs, he sees that the pieces have all fallen into place. He can't try to save Dumbledore without being killed by the DEs or the vow. He can either keep the vow, saving Draco and himself but killing Dumbledore, or all three of them will die. He makes, for whatever reason, the choice that seems better to him, but there is no good choice. Either way, Voldemort benefits from Snape's inevitable fall to the DADA curse (which I believe has been working his will without his conscious control) because Dumbledore dies. Given the rather pathetic selection of Death Eaters he still has on hand, he also seems to benefit from Snape's choice to act (note "act," a word used with reference to Snape by both Harry and Snape himself in HBP) as a loyal Death Eater with the capacity to direct and control the others, an able second in command to replace the disgraced Lucius Malfoy. But maybe, just maybe, Voldemort has made a grave error in judgment and the curse he placed on the DADA position so many years before will rebound on him like the AK he cast on Harry at Godric's Hollow. "Oft evil will evil mars." (Oops. Wrong book.) Carol, realizing she should have said "agency" or "instrument" rather than "agent" in the original post in this thread From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 19:48:39 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:48:39 -0000 Subject: Lockets - General Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138116 bboyminn: Sorry for cutting everything. I just had a few general comments on the suject; not really replying to anything specific. First, is it possible that Voldemort cataloged the protection spells on the various Horcruxes he stored? If that's true, and it would be a lot of spells in a lot of different locations, so it would be hard to remember it all, they may be written down somewhere. It's possible that R.A.B. found this magic book and copied the spells on the Locket/Cave Horcrux, and therefore knew the 'back door' in or knew how to get past all the spells. The alternate scenerio is the Voldemort had various powerful but somewhat insignificant DE prepare the various sites where the Horcruxes are stored. They may know about the various enchantment but not know the reason for them. At the last minute, Voldemort walks in and deposits the Horcrux. Then, I suppose it's possible that he kills everyone who worked on the project. That's not necessary, but it is a valid possibility. Perhaps R.A.B. either figured out the purpose and/or figured out he would be killed because he worked on it, then as a sort of revenge, made the switch, good-locket for bad-locket, and his temporary escape. It seems possible, though impossible to confirm, that the locket found in the Black household during OotP, is a locket that was in Regulas Black's possession when they found his body, and it was returned along with his other personal affect to his proud parents. It would be kind of a strange iron for Harry to search the wizard world only to find that all this time he was sitting right next to it. Just a few ramblings. Steve/bboyminn From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 19 20:11:26 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:11:26 -0000 Subject: Fenrir Greyback - literary parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138117 > > Marika: > > > > In Sweden boys are actually being namned Loke (Loki), so why not > Fenrir? > > > > Grayback does not sound like a translation of a Nordic name thou. > Varg > > (wolf) is the closest I can think of. > > Geoff: > Perhaps I didn't make myself totally clear - I was thinking of Fenrir > as a nickname, although Greyback could be a family name or a nickname > referring to his appearance.... > > After all, all the wolves I have mentioned, Fenris/Fenrir, Maugrim or > Managarm are all grey and nasty. Marika: I'm a bit confused... You made the statement that "I can't see anyone naming a child after the monstrous wolf of Norse mythology." My reply to that is that I can't see why, since some people actually do chose to name their sons Loke. Loke is not precicely a nice guy, and his destany is not a nice one either - being tied up having snake poison dripping all over him. Still some parents think it's a fine/cool (?) name. The second part of my answer referred to catkind who was "taking that (Grayback) as a (translation of a) nordic-type surname." I just suggested that it doesn't sound like it to me - being Scandinavian myself. If somehow there is something I misunderstood, I apologize. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 20:47:56 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:47:56 -0000 Subject: Poetic justice (was: The DADA jinx and its victims.) In-Reply-To: <20050819150005.99425.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > Amiable Dorsai: > ...edited... > > James' and Sirius' feud with Snape arguably led to their dooms.... > > Juli: > > Could you please explain to me HOW their feud with Snape led them to >their doom? Maybe I've missed some canon, but I just can't see how >their dislike and rivalry (to put it that way) led them to their death. AD: Dislike and rivalry seem like such pale words to use to describe Sirus' and Snape's encounter at Grimmauld Place, or for the incident Harry witnessed in Snape's Pensieve.... I used the word "arguably" on purpose, since it's by no means certain from canon, but surely it's not such a stretch--would Snape have been so anxious for the power that Riddle promised had he not been humiliated by James Potter? Would Sirius have been so reckless at the Ministry had Snape not been goading him all year? Would Snape have been so eager to bait Sirius had Sirius never arranged an encounter with a werewolf for him? I'm not sure of the answer to these questions, but I suspect they could be answered "no". Amiable Dorsai From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 20:54:11 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:54:11 -0000 Subject: Few Snape teaching DADA scenes (was: This Snape hater accepts Snape is good- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138119 SiriuslySnapeySusan wrote: > And I want to know just what Snape proposed was a BETTER means of > taking on Dementors than using a Patronus! Remember that assignment, where we're told Harry disagreed with Snape on that topic? Well, what did Snape tell them, darn it? Why didn't we get to hear the lecture or witness the exchange (if there was one)? Carol responds: I don't have a fully developed theory about this question, but certainly one of her motives is to deprive us of entertainment--um, no, I mean keep us in suspense as to whether Snape is helping or hindering the students. However, the fact that Harry and friends don't complain about these classes seems to suggest that they are indeed learning useful information. And those scary posters in the first class give them an idea of exactly what they're facing. (I do wish we'd heard the proper way of stopping an Inferius, but either Snape didn't give that information or Harry wasn't listening.) Snape seems to have concentrated on teaching "nvbl" defensive spells and perhaps on anticipating your opponents' moves (also suggested by the last DADA lesson after the tower scene!). Possibly he taught them not to use Dark Magic to fight Dark Magic (twice he reprimands Harry for using it), but again, we don't know. But surely Harry, who is suspicious of Snape in relation to Draco, would report any lapses in his teaching methods (he's not helping us learn to protect ourselves!) if he spotted them. Quite possibly he can't openly make such statements because they would reveal his allegiance to Dumbledore, and with Draco, at least, he is certainly playing the DE-pretending-to-be-loyal-to-Dumbledore role. It's interesting, however, that Draco (who has lost all interest in school and NEWTs) sees the DADA class as a joke, part of Snape's act, which again suggests that he is teaching a standard DADA class (better than most of his predecessors would have done) with no suggestion of Dark Arts being desirable. I've forgotten whether Harry has DADA with students from other houses, as he does in NEWT potions, or whether he has it with his fellow Gryffindors. I think it ought to be a required course for all students, and we know that Crabbe and Goyle, who failed their DADA OWLs, are taking it. I don't think this is favoritism. I think it has to do with the importance of *defense* against the Dark Arts for all students at this critical time. As for the Dementor question, I'm curious, too. I think it's important, though, that Expecto Patronum is a difficult spell to master and even students who can cast a Patronus in the DA sessions probably can't cast one when faced with an actual Dementor. (Harry couldn't in PoA. He was saved by his own future self. Even in OoP, he saves himself and Dudley with great difficulty.) So if Snape has an alternate method that doesn't require casting a Patronus, then he's presenting valuable information to students who haven't won a Tri-Wizard tournament or faced Voldemort himself in a duel. I really hope we learn the answer to your question in Book 7. I doubt that JKR just threw it in. (Chalk up another point for the HBP?) Carol, who also wonders whether Snape used a potion or a countercurse to save DD when he was on the point of death from the ring Horcrux From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 19 21:12:08 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:12:08 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138120 > Carol responds: > What I was getting at though, is that the DADA > curse works Voldemort's will, consciously or > unconsciously. In almost all cases (Umbridge's and > Lockhart's are the weakest for the theory) the DADA > teachers are somehow linked to Voldemort and/or their > fall benefits him. Quirrell's connection is obvious, as > is Crouch!Moody's. Lockhart is supposedly on his way to deal > with the basilisk when the DADA curse strikes. Even > Umbridge, my weakest example, is linked to Voldemort > by the Dementors she sends after Harry and the Crucio > she tries to cast on him. houyhnhnm: Umbridge's fall benefits Voldemort because it is part of a chain of events that sends Harry to the Ministry to retrieve the prophecy. Entering the forest -> encountering the centaurs -> being rescued by Grawp -> attracting the thestrals because of Grawp's blood. It is ironic that Hermione makes up a story about retrieving the "weapon" to lure Umbridge into the forest because that's exactly what they end up doing. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 21:23:12 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Poetic justice (was: The DADA jinx and its victims.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050819212312.70948.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138121 AD: I used the word "arguably" on purpose, since it's by no means certain from canon, but surely it's not such a stretch--would Snape have been so anxious for the power that Riddle promised had he not been humiliated by James Potter? Juli: OK, it's a possibility, but I don't see it, I mean, we have young Severus, smart, confident, a loner... do you really think that the Marauders made just a strong impression on him? I think we are giving MWPP too much credit, not everyhting that happened at VWI isn't their fault (I'm exagerating). And how do you know that Voldemort offered Snape power? It could have been anything, for all we know the reason Snape joined the DEs was because his girlfriend was one, or all his friends were doing it... AD: Would Sirius have been so reckless at the Ministry had Snape not been goading him all year? Would Snape have been so eager to bait Siriu had Sirius never arranged an encounter with a werewolf for him? Juli: In what way did Sirious acted recklessly when he was at the MoM? As I remember he did what everyone else did: He fought the DEs, sure he may have laughed at Bella, but I wouldn't put it as reckless, he was just being Sirius. Again, I don't see how Snape's comments led Sirius to his death. Sirius cared deeply for Harry, so of course he was going to the MoM, the Pope or the PM could have told him to stay at 12GP and he wouldn't have listened to them. Snape and Sirius hated each other, it's a fact, but they didn't care enough for each other to make their every single action a consequence of whatever they said. JMO of course Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alisondd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 21:27:51 2005 From: alisondd at yahoo.com (Alison D) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:27:51 -0000 Subject: Faked death or faked AK? (Was: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book) In-Reply-To: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" <> Sherry now: > Sherry now: > > i guess I see through the eyes of prejudice and hatred then. Though in my > own defense, i tried, until that moment to believe in mean but still good > Snape. Dumbledore trusted him, so he must have been good. I was shocked > and horrified by the events on the tower, even though I didn't ever like > Snape. i still didn't want him to be ESE. But for me, there's never an > excuse to commit murder, coldly, casually, kill the one person who trusted > you. We don't know if Snape hated Dumbledore or not. We were led to > believe in his change of heart because of Dumbledore, and we have no way of > knowing what he has been truly feeling all these years. i just know that if > someone walked up and without hesitation shot a loved one of mine, I'd never > be convinced of the rightness or nobility or courage of such an act, no > matter what the excuse. Harry is completely justified in his feelings, in > my opinion. Alison here: If someone walked up to a person you loved and shot them without hesitation and not in defense of their or someone else's life then you would have an absolute reason to hate them, however I would imagine no matter the circumstances there would be feelings of at the very least resentment, but in Snape's case I must disagree with the phrase "without hesitation." I believe Snape showed hesitation, which is why Dumbledore spoke to him again. An act without hesitation on Snape's part would have involved walking onto the scene, quickly surveying Malfoy with his wand arm dropped and raising his to kill Dumbledore thereby fulfilling the requirements of his Unbreakable Vow. When in fact Snape surveyed the scene was spoken to by Dumbledore not once, but twice, before he apparently cast AK. Harry is justified in his feelings right now, because he like some readers is basing everything on what he believes he saw, which may or may not be the case. Do I believe Dumbledore is dead, yes. Do I believe what I read about on the tower is cut and dry, no. There are too many parallels both in this book and the previous five that offer testimony to the contrary, and I believe many posts have pointed out a few already so I won't do that here. Alison From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Aug 19 21:36:57 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:36:57 -0000 Subject: Fenrir Greyback - literary parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marika_thestral" wrote: > Marika: > > I'm a bit confused... > > You made the statement that "I can't see anyone naming a child after > the monstrous wolf of Norse mythology." My reply to that is that I > can't see why, since some people actually do chose to name their sons > Loke. Loke is not precicely a nice guy, and his destany is not a nice > one either - being tied up having snake poison dripping all over him. > Still some parents think it's a fine/cool (?) name. > > The second part of my answer referred to catkind who was "taking that > (Grayback) as a (translation of a) nordic-type surname." I just > suggested that it doesn't sound like it to me - being Scandinavian myself. > > If somehow there is something I misunderstood, I apologize. Geoff: My thought about Fenrir as a given name was that, often in olden times, children were given a name which perhaps were an aspiration to what they might become or which highlighted a physical characteristic - Rufus for a redhead for example. It is quite common in Jewish circles; if you read the Bible, the meaning of a given name is often mentioned. Thus, I though it odd that the name of a fabled werewolf might be used. As to Greyback, my thought was that it could be a family name (such as the Scots name Cruickshank) or possibly a further nickname referring to physical looks, such as calling someone Longshanks or Strider.... These were merely observations on my part - no confusion was intended. From oppen at mycns.net Fri Aug 19 22:03:02 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:03:02 -0000 Subject: Merope's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Eric Oppen asked: > "How long was she able to keep filling TR, Sr. up with love potions? > If her idyll had lasted a while, it could well be that her rotten > father and/or brother had gotten back out of Azkaban...and once they > were out, the first thing they'd do would be to track down their > escaped slave." > > (snip) > > "We know that Muggles can't diagnose the Avada Kedavra curse > correctly. If Merope was already weak and ill (and, probably, > suffering from severe post-partum depression and emotional anguish) > all it would have taken would be for either Marvolo or Morfin to slip > into the room where she was and cast a quick A-K." > > Del replies: > Interesting idea, though I disagree on some details. > > 1. It can't be Morfin, because of the timeline. We know that Morfin > got 3 years in Azkaban, while Marvolo got only 6 months. We know that > by the time Marvolo got back, he found an inch of dust in his house, > so Merope had eloped with Tom Riddle for at least a couple of months > already. And finally we know that Merope had Tom Jr about a year after > the marriage. So by that time, Morfin was still in Azkaban, but not > Marvolo. (All factual details come from the chapter "The House of Gaunt") Okay, so noted. I don't have my copy in front of me at the moment. > > 2. It can't be an AK, because the Ministry would have known. They > can't say who performed a curse, but they do know when, where and on > whom a curse has been performed. For example, they didn't know for > sure that it was Morfin who had jinxed Tom Sr, but they knew when and > where the jinx had been performed, and on whom, which is how they > deducted who had done it. So if an AK had been performed in a Muggle > orphanage, the MoM would have known, and DD would know that Merope had > been so murdered. You forgot completely about the events at the Riddle House, seventeen years later. That was at least _three_ AKs, performed by an underage wizard, and probably other magic as well (i.e. an "Alohomora" to get in, "Petrificus Totalus" to hold his victims in place, and a few well- placed "Crucios" wouldn't surprise me) and the Ministry never twigged. Dumbledore suspected, but couldn't prove anything. This would be seventeen years previously, in an area where no wizards or witches are considered likely to be. The MoM is not infallible (rather like saying that the Pacific Ocean's rather large and wet) and at this time, wouldn't have had any reason to suspect or expect anything untoward. > > 3. I can't imagine that Marvolo would have left the newborn Tom alive, > if he'd killed Merope. While I have had no first-hand experience with such things, I have long been under the impression that newborns are often whisked away from their mothers right after birth, to be weighed, checked over, and so on...and that this was far more widely-done in the past than it is now, and would be particularly characteristic of "charity" operations such as Merope seems to have used. Young TR might just not have been around. Or...even someone as low as Marvolo Gaunt could have found that, at seventh and last, he didn't have it in him to kill a newborn baby. Sort of like my theory about why Harry & Co. survived their rumble with the DEs...many or even most of the DEs might have been unable to bring themselves to kill "children," particularly since many of them had kids at Hogwarts of about the same age. This wouldn't apply to Lovely Bella, of course, but she's nucking futz, a raving fanatic, and childless. > > But there are other possibilities, namely poison or a slower curse. It > is possible that Marvolo, not wanting to go back to Azkaban so soon, > chose a more anonymous way of killing Merope. It is even possible that > the curse was on the locket Merope had, a curse that was supposed to > slowly and painfully kill any rightful owner of the Slytherin heirloom > that would sell it outside of the family - it does sound like the kind > of thing the Gaunts would do. > This is also possible...I hadn't thought of that. Administering the poison, or the slower curse, might have been a problem, but once that's overcome, Bob's your uncle! > Moreover, this curse/poison possibility would enhance the amazing and > very consistent contrast between Lily/Harry and Merope/Tom. Lily left > a love protection in Harry's blood. Could it be that Tom was born to a > cursed mother? This would make him a cursed baby, which would help > explain why he was so weird and scary right from the beginning (note: > psychology and genetics are enough to explain Tom's abnormal behaviour > even as a baby, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of a magical > curse on top of it). This is an excellent point. I tend to ascribe TR's unique ways to the streak of insanity his mother's family showed, but a curse would also explain a great deal. > > So I do think that you might be on to something that would explain > both Merope's untimely death and Tom's "inborn" evilness. A slow > poison could even explain why Merope made all the strange choices she > seems to have made: stop feeding Love Potion to Tom Sr, not use magic > to help herself, and why she looked so destitute when she sold the locket. True enough, although having been abandoned by the man she (thought she) loved, pregnant and penniless, in 1920s London, could account for that. I do not see Merope as having anything like enough knowledge of how the Muggle world worked to be able to get herself help easily, and she certainly wouldn't have been let off the leash enough to know the ropes for the Wizard world, either. > > JMO, > > Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 19 22:09:32 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:09:32 -0000 Subject: Sleeping Snape Distrusted by all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138125 > -aussie- > I did a word search about Snape sleeping, and couldn't find anything > in the posts. Seems as though NO-ONE trusted Snape. Potioncat: Well, with this search tool, it would be hard to find an elephant in a phone booth. I've written at least two well drafted, thought provoking posts about sleeping Snape...they've been widely ignored by discriminating minds. Here is a bit of Carol's reply to your post: Carol responds: We don't know that he was asleep. He certainly was not dressed in his night shirt (as in the encounter with Fake!Moody in GoF) when Flitwick came to his office and nothing is said about waking him up. I think DD was just assuming that he was asleep because of the late hour, but Snape the night owl wa more likely marking DADA essays than sleeping. He certainly didn''t know that the DEs had found a way into Hogwarts and yet he seems to have been awake. He might well have been waiting for Dumbledore to return. We don't know. Potioncat: In the very first read, DD's request to Harry to go wake Snape actually jumped out at me. After all the talk about leaving Hogwarts secure, after 5 books of Snape lurking about the dark halls in good times, I found it hard to believe Snape was in bed. After some thought, I realise that Snape cannot be patrolling the hall with Order members ...wait a minute, does LV know that Snape is in the Order?... But I can't believe Snape would be in bed. Or that DD would assume it. "Go get Snape" I could accept, but go "wake" Snape seemed odd. Then we know that when Flitwick went into get Snape for McG, Flitwick was, at the least, knocked down. Snape must have been startled awake. I think DD had put a spell on Snape or slipped him a potion. Snape is dressed, he isn't in bed. Because he was startled, I don't think he expected to be asleep. But I think he was asleep or he would have been likely to know that something was wrong. I mean, if he could hear a teacher getting sacked,(OoP) you'd think he could hear a battle. It's my theory that the argument in the forest was, at least in part, about DD's going after horcruxes. I think DD put Snape under so that he could go out undisturbed. He knew Snape would help him once he got back. It may have been a mistake because an awake Snape may have been able to take different actions if he'd gotten to the DEs earlier. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 22:15:15 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:15:15 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138126 > >>Phoenixgod: > > ...I don't think Draco is a poor little rich boy with bad friend > making skills. Draco is a bad, egocentric little villian in the > making. Betsy Hp: Thank goodness Dumbledore disagrees! He certainly saw *something* worth saving in Draco. And I do think their final conversation in HBP will have ramifications in book 7. > >>Phoenixgod: > He might not be much of a killer but that seems to be failure of > cowardice and sqeamishness than anything else. Betsy Hp: Yes, because only the super brave have the guts to kill an unarmed and wounded old man while surrounded by their meanest, nastiest buddies [/sarcasm]. Sorry, but the whole, measuring Draco's "bravery" by his unwillingness to kill Dumbledore is... odd to me. Squeamishness, I'll buy. Draco (like Harry) is not too enamored of the reality of killing another human being. I take that as a good thing, actually. And I believe JKR shares the viewpoint. Looking at the known killers in her books (Voldemort, Pettigrew, Barty Crouch Jr., Grayback) killing doesn't seem like the way to win universal admiration. Even the most ardent Snape-fan recognizes that the fact that Snape has killed cannot be treated lightly. > >>Phoenixgod: > He certainly shares Death Eater ideology. Betsy Hp: Of course he does. That's how he was raised. I have a strong suspicion that ideology is being questioned at the moment, and it'll be interesting to see what Draco believes in book 7. > >>Phoenixgod: > You have such rose colored glasses when it comes to Draco I don't > even know where to begin! > Betsy Hp: Hey, I'm only working with what JKR gave me. I see the Draco she wants me to see. If it seems rosy colored to you, take it up with her. > >>Phoenixgod: > He had already nearly killed two people and we never the slightest > bit of genuine remorse, IIRC. Betsy Hp: I cover all that in my post on Draco's choice: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136980 "Honestly, I think that when Dumbledore gives Draco a benediction of sorts, ("you are not a killer") the very fact that Draco then feels the need to confess ("but I've done things that don't bear that out!") speaks to Draco's remorse. If he hadn't cared about what he'd done to Katie or Ron I don't think he'd have thought to bring them up. Especially since, as Dumbledore points out, they were examples of some rather pathetic attempts on Draco's part." Of course, you may disagree. > >>Betsy Hp: > > > > > > But I don't think Harry *ever* considered that Draco might > > > actually be a victim of Voldemort's. > >>Alla: > > I am with Phoenixgod - Draco started this adventure as being > > Voldemort's accomplice, NOT a victim, IMO. He planned > > assacination attempt because he wanted glory and even accused > > Snape of trying to steal his glory. > >>Hickengruendler: > I never thought I would defend the little ferret, but one doesn't > necessarily exclude the other. I agree with Narcissa in thinking, > that Voldemort chose it as a revenge for Lucius, and Snape seems to > agree as well. > Betsy Hp: Absolutely. Draco's death was the entire point of Voldemort's plan. Lucius had failed Voldemort twice, and Lucius had to pay. Which, to my mind, made Draco Voldemort's victim. > >>Hickengruendler: > I don't think Voldemort threatened Draco from the very beginning. > He probably knew how to seduce him to the Dark Side, in promising > him glory and telling him that he has the chance to take revenge > on Harry for sending Lucius to prison. > Betsy Hp: I agree. Voldemort presents the plan in the best possible light to Draco, and then puts him in the hands of his most fanatic follower, Bellatrix. (All of Draco's talk of "glory" and his distrust of Snape sound like something he's quoting straight from her.) Though I'd say that it was presented as taking revenge on *Dumbledore*. Draco was very uninterested in Harry throughout HBP. And I think the use of the word "seduce" is a good one. Voldemort pulled a young sixteen year old school boy into his parlor with all sorts of promises and when the school boy got nervous he forced him to stay. Draco was seduced into saying yes, but saying no was never an option. (Which Draco learned sometime over the Christmas break, I think.) > >>Betsy Hp: > > Well, there's Draco, and... erm... There's Draco. Has Harry > > conversed with any other Slytherin? > > > >>Phoenixgod: > Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent, Flint, the nameless cheating > bastard members of the Quiddich team, the house members who > refused to stand for Cedric, and all the ones wearing Potter > Stinks badges back during GoF. Betsy Hp: Which leads me make to my original question: has Harry ever conversed with any other Slytherin (with the same caveat you snipped - Quidditch barbs don't count)? Two small points of order: No one refused to stand for Cedric. Some *did* refuse to stand for Harry. Those wearing Potter Stinks badges included every house except for Gryffindor. I believe Hufflepuff was quite enthusastic (not thrilled with Harry trying to steal their boy's spot-light, IIRC). > >>Phoenixgod: > Harry hasn't exactly been treated well by any Slytherin, not > just Draco. Why exactly should he think well of any of them? > >>Alla: > Exactly, Phoenixgod, thank you. Betsy Hp: Because he hasn't been treated badly by any Slytherin except Draco? And to reverse the question, no Slytherin has ever been treated well by Harry, why should they work to seek him out and be nice to him? > >>Betsy Hp: > > I think this quote counters your theory: > > "You'll be Gryffindor like her, I suppose? Yes, it usually goes > > in families." (HBP scholastic p.70) > > Tom *was* Slytherin's last surviving heir, after all. > >>Alla: > I am sorry I don't understand. I was saying that I interpret my > quote as the idea that Slytherin House values equal Tom's values, > that he did not HAVE to twist anything, Slytherin House was already > twisted enough to accept eleven year old bully with psychopathic > tendencies. > Could you clarify how the quote you brought up contradicts my > argument, please? Betsy Hp: *Hogwarts* was "twisted enough to accept an eleven year old bully with psychopathic tendencies". The fact that Tom was a blood relative of Slytherin meant that Slytherin was the lucky house that got to take him in. If Tom had been a blood relative of Ravenclaw I imagine he'd have been swept off to that house. If none of the houses had wanted him, I guess he'd have ended up in Hufflepuff, since they "take all the rest". > >>Phoenixgod: > I was disappointed that there wasn't more laying the ground work > for house unity in this book. > Betsy Hp: Sure there was! That was what the Slug club was all about. It was a bit more elitist than the DA, but it did include *all* of the houses, so that was good. And it forced Harry to interact with students he'd never spoken with before, including some of his Slytherin classmates. Betsy Hp, who tried to think up a more accurate subject line but failed miserably From scarah at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 22:24:34 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:24:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Faked death or faked AK? (Was: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book) In-Reply-To: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> References: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> Message-ID: <32025905081915241ec9f1af@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138127 > Sherry now: > > Again, as I have asked before among others who have asked the same thing, if > this was a plan between Dumbledore and Snape, why oh why didn't they tell > Harry in advance? That was poor planning in the extreme, and I'd have > thought both men were more intelligent than that to leave such an important > detail out of things. With the history of hatred between Snape and Harry, > it was ridiculous to plot this thing and then leave Harry to believe what he > believes. Sarah: Why would they want Harry to know the truth? That is the best part of the whole plan. Harry never learned Occlumency, LV can look into his head any time he wants. Now when he does, he won't see anything but his best uberminion being superloyal. Having Harry witness it and believe what he believes is the best thing that could have happened. Sarah From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 19:17:33 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:17:33 -0000 Subject: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138128 Laura wrote: > > My theory is that it is artistic license. The thought > is that a withered and blackened hand would be ugly and > unappealing on the cover, so they conveniently ignore it. > The right hand vs. left hand thing is due to the artist's > conception of balance and appeal. IMO. > > Who would have thought, though, that the clasped hands on > the British children's edition cover would be Snape and > Narcissa? Why does Snape's (?) hand look so much older? > At least Harry's wand is in his right hand. Dumbledore's > though is in his left hand, with his right hand not visible. Don't think anyone has raised this possibility that - with the incredible amount of secrecy and worries over plot leaks and early copies getting out and everything, perhaps JKR and her publishers gave the artsists' a very stilted version of what they wanted, eg, "Dumbledore and Harry surrounded by a ring of fire with wands drawn" or "two hands clasped with a fiery bond linking them" - in the hopes that no more leaks would spring from the artists' telling their friends, 'Hey, they asked me to draw DD's hand all withered and black ... I bet he bites it in the new one...' So we end up with superficially accurate, but ultimately flawed, cover artwork, but JKR keeps her plot to herself until the book drops ... Just a suggestion. Redeyedwings From jbishel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 23:07:02 2005 From: jbishel at earthlink.net (Jody Bishel) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:07:02 -0700 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138129 Hi, I'm a new member and I've been wondering about a couple of things. Since Dumbledore was the secret keeper for 12 Grimauld Place, what happened when he died? There must have been some kind of back up plan in place to keep it hidden or is it a case of once the magic is set in place, it must be deliberately removed? Also, it's always bugged me that when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak, Mrs. Norris never sniffs him out nor does Greyback in HBP. Thanks for your thoughts, I've really enjoyed the discussions here! Jody [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pjmohn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 22:26:28 2005 From: pjmohn at yahoo.com (pjmohn) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:26:28 -0000 Subject: Head Boy or Girl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138130 I'm thinking Neville or one of the others. Harry will come back to school for a short stint, but will then go on to finish this V thing. Won't stick around for even Quidditch. Neville would be my vote, he deserves it after all the things he's gone through. (full body bind, pixies, etc.) He's more than proven himself. Who better to hold down the fort while HRH are doing their thing. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 22:44:18 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:44:18 -0000 Subject: Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138131 > Antosha: >> > There is another way of distinguishing among live-saving acts, I think, that might explain > why, say, Snape owes James (and therefore Harry) but Ginny does not. If the act that > triggers a debt requires that the life-saver actually risk his/her life by stepping between > the person in debt and their doom, then that would mean that Harry, though he definitely > saved Ginny, Arthur and Ron's lives, would not have incurred life debts on them. It would > explain why Healers at St. Mungo's don't have retinues of bodyguards who are bound to > them for saving their lives. > > Harry's father stepped between Snape and Wolf!Lupin. And Harry stepped between Peter > and a Sirius who was closer to crazy than not, and a Remus who was within a half an hour. > They are literally on the point of killing Peter when Harry steps in the way and stops them. > Looking at that scene, Harry is not aware that his life is in danger--he's more worried > about the moral dilemma--but it seems to me that he definitely saves Peter's life, and he > definitely risks his own, even if the two men would never choose to kill him. a_svirn: Even if you are right in your premise (personally I don't think so, but let's say you are) I still can't agree with your conclusions. Because Harry did indeed willingly risked his life to save Ginny. Almost lost it, in point of fact. Whereas James Potter risked his in the Shack no more than he had risked it running wild with his werewolf friend on numerous occasions. I suppose some degree of risk had always been there (Lupin himself acknowledged it), but certainly not enough to meet the "risking his own life" condition. As for Sirius being a danger to Harry Well, I am far from being Sirius's fan, but surely you are doing him a grave injustice! All Sirius had ever wanted, in fact, all he had been obsessed with was Harry's safety, Harry's wellbeing and Harry's happiness. In order to ensure it he escaped Azkaban, lived in a cave feeding on rats to be closer at hand, and when he finally died it was while defending Harry. From bdasl at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 22:39:23 2005 From: bdasl at yahoo.com (bdasl) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:39:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius as godfather (Re: Funerals) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138133 Jen Reese wrote: > After the recent interviews, JKR makes it very clear how unique Lily's sacrifice was, unheard of before then and conferring a special protection never seen in the WW (except DD knows of it, so what to make of that? Must be he knows the possibilty of it within the context of ancient magic, but hasn't seen it before Lily). But I still think there would be some benefit to Harry if Sirius were to die in the act of protecting him. A clause in the guardianship thingy, something Sirius would readily agree to. That quality in him, being willing to die if needed, was probably part of the reason he was chosen, along with being an Order member and unflinchingly loyal to James. > It should also be pointed out (just for the sake of completeness) that not only Albus Dumbledore but Tom Riddle (the 16 yr old Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets) comments that Lily's dying for Harry "is a powerful countercharm" So, the protection was not unheard of just that it had never been done against the AK. And I agree totally that Sirius would be the perfect choice: a certain reckless disregard for his own life & safety, a profound loyalty to his friends and the Order - and let us not forget no outside attachments to keep his focus away from Harry should the need arise. Too bad Wormy turned out to be smarter than anyone thought "bdasl" From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Fri Aug 19 20:31:25 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fabian_Peng_K=E4rrholm?=) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:31:25 +0200 Subject: photographs Message-ID: <4306419D.2040201@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138134 Hi, I was thinking about the magical photographs. In POA, when Harry looks at the picture of Sirius Black, it says that he looks happy and handsome (or something like it). So the photo preserves how the person was at the time. However, in OoTP, Percy leaves the family picture, meaning that in this case his photographic self is not preserved when the picture was taken. Also, as being quite new here, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I have to say I thought it's rather interesting to note that the person who inspires Harry to become an Auror is in fact a Death Eeater. Trying his best to impersonate Mad-Eye, but still, he's a Death Eater. /Fabian From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 23:25:53 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:25:53 -0000 Subject: Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138135 > a_svirn: > Even if you are right in your premise (personally I don't think so, > but let's say you are) I still can't agree with your conclusions. > > Because Harry did indeed willingly risked his life to save Ginny. > Almost lost it, in point of fact. Whereas James Potter risked his in > the Shack no more than he had risked it running wild with his > werewolf friend on numerous occasions. Antosha-- True, both acts involved a person risking his own life and saving someone else. What I'm trying to say is that while Harry saved Ginny's life, and risked his own, he never stepped in the way of a curse that Tom Riddle had cast at her, he simply destroyed the threat to her life, while his father--who had, indeed done ridiculously risky things with his friends in the name of comradeship and fun--DID step directly between Snape and an werewolf in full fury. The risk is the same, the life saved has the same value, but the act is fundamentally different. It is the only way that I can find a logical reason that Harry saving the Weasleys lives did not invoke a life debt, while his stepping in front of Peter Pettigrew did. The only other distinction that occurs to me is that the wizards perhaps must be enemies. I guess I could see that. Severus Snape was James's enemy. Peter Pettigrew had shown himself to be Harry's enemy, yet James saved Snape and Harry saved Pettigrew. I'm not sure that quite covers it, however. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Aug 19 23:26:24 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:26:24 -0000 Subject: Poetic justice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138136 --- Amiable Dorsai wrote: > This is a theme Rowling likes, apparently--Voldy made Harry > the "Chosen One" by his own choice, that Halloween night. > Lockhart destroyed himself with his own favorite spell. > James' and Sirius' feud with Snape arguably led to their > dooms.... Any further examples? I can think of a few more, > but I'd like some other opinions. Lockhart's pretty darn good, but I'm game for a few. I'll start, in roughly chronological order, and let others fill out the list: * Voldemort's rebounded killing curse (can anyone say "hoist with his own petard"?) * Pettigrew ratting out the Potters and then being forced to live as a rat for 12 years * In the zoo scene in PS/SS, when Dudley asks Vernon to wake up the snake. It does, eventually, wake up.... * Dudley's tail. Enough said. * Harry's wand twinned to Voldemort's * Malfoy tries to get Harry in trouble for flying and instead gets him put on the Gryffindor quidditch team * The mountain troll is knocked out by its own club (and Hermione saved by the same spell she could do so much better than Ron -- in class) * Dumbledore's trick with the Mirror of Erised -- only the person who wants to locate the stone can find it * The whole idea of Lucius Malfoy destroying one of Voldemort's horcruxes in an effort to wreak havoc on Hogwarts * Nosy photographer Colin Creevey getting a look at something he shouldn't and getting petrified (I guess the same could be said for Mrs. Norris) * Master potionmaker Hermione messing up her own Polyjuice * Lockhart, braggart outside and coward inside, getting called on to save Ginny * Harry actually saving Ginny, after she has been pining after him all year * Harry freeing Dobby after Dobby has spent the book trying to "save" Harry * Widebody Aunt Marge getting "blown up" * Pettigrew detected by the Marauder's Map (poetic justice only if you think he played a real part in enchanting it) [OK, I'm sure someone can do better on PA] * Paranoiac Moody actually getting kidnapped and no one noticing ("Boy Who Cried Wolf" type of poetic justice) * Weasley twins gambling and winning, only to get swindled * Barty Crouch Sr. imprisons Jr. for years under Imperius curse, then has the curse turned on him. * Peter, getting the job most of Voldemort's followers would "give their right hand for" * Voldemort in the graveyard scene thwarted by the ghosts of his victims * Harry giving Weasley twins the Triwizard winnings * Dumbledore, trying to protect Harry by keeping him in the dark, but instead alienating him and putting him into danger * Umbridge banning the Quibbler interview, ensuring that everyone wants to read it * Marietta (Hermione's jinx) * The Room of Requirement coughing up the DA roster * Umbridge, thwarted by her own disrespect for magical creatures * Kreacher, the favorite punching bag of the Order generally and Sirius specifically, becoming the agent of tragedy * Also, the fact that the Malfoys trick Harry using Sirius's house-elf after Harry tricked the Malfoys out of their house-elf I'll let someone else pick up with HBP. -- Matt From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 20 00:05:33 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:05:33 -0000 Subject: The Two Fights Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138137 Potioncat from post #138125: > It's my theory that the argument in the forest was, at least in > part, about DD's going after horcruxes. So Hagrid inteprets the DD/Snape fight to be over the necklace and the very recent accidental poisoning of Ron. But two months before this, Harry told Dumbledore *everything* about the fight between Draco/Snape, implicating Draco in the necklace scheme and alerting Dumbledore to the Unbreakable Vow (if he did not already know about these things). Yet when Dumbledore is arguing with Snape, Hagrid said he mentioned 'makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin.' Dumbledore already knows who the culprit is. So does that mean Dumbledore isn't telling Snape he knows all about Draco & the Unbreakable? Hoping Snape will spill the beans himself? As for the first part of the fight, it could be a separate issue. Snape 'didn' want ter do it anymore--.' Didn' want ter keep healing DD while he's on the Horcrux hunt, as Potioncat suggested? Didn' want ter continue in the cursed DADA position? Wants out of the spying game? If it was all about the same issue, Snape getting to the bottom of the necklace and poisoning issue, then there was a bigger split between Dumbledore and Snape than I picked up on reading HBP. Maybe Dumbledore was referring to more than just Trelawney the night he told Harry: "But never mind my staffing problems." (chap. 20, p. 427, US). Jen From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Sat Aug 20 00:31:16 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:31:16 -0000 Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > [Troubled by Dumbledore's demeanor in HBP.] [L]et's discuss > what we know about Dumbledore up to the beginning of book six. > > (1) He is always kind and thoughtful, and has a playful sense > of humor. > (2) He is polite to the extreme. > (3) He doesn't fail to admit when he has made a mistake, and > will be the first to admit "the trappings of an old man." > (4) He has an extreme amount of patience with Harry, and > shows a generous amount of compassion and caring towards him. > (5) He is widely known as the most powerful wizard in the > world. All true, but let me add a couple of background points we also know. (A) Dumbledore is getting older. (B) Dumbledore's heart-to-heart with Harry at the end of OP marked a change in their relationship -- he has decided to treat Harry as an adult. (C) Dumbledore also feels guilty about his past "hands-off" treatment of Harry. Also, let us speculate that along with (A), (A') Dumbledore feels his days are coming to an end, giving him a greater sense of urgency. Let's see if that background can help explain the discrepancies you see. > (1 and 2) [Dumbledore's] sense of humor and politeness are > a bit out of whack in two instances, first at the Dursley's and > then with Slughorn. He forces his way past Vernon and into the > house, forcefully sitting all three of them on the couch, and > then proceeding to knock them about their heads with goblets > full of mead. OK, this was not Dumbledore at his most cordial. He does start out reasonably polite ("your agapanthus are flourishing"), and he certainly did bring his sense of humor along for the ride, although perhaps with a bit more bite than usual (something that all of our background factors may help to explain): "I don't mean to be rude" "And yet, sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often" ..... "I would assume that you were going to offer me refreshment, but the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness." ..... "Oh, I'm so sorry. But it would have been better manners to drink it, you know." Too, almost every time Dumbledore strains the boundaries of manners, it is in response to some fairly inexcusable remark of Vernon's. The one exception is actually the piece I found most out of character for Dumbledore in the whole scene -- his criticism of the way the Dursleys have raised Dudley. I guess that piece bothered me more than the rest because it was an *unnecessary* swipe, whereas everything else Dumbledore did or said seemed responsive to the situation. > When he figures out Slughorn has transfigured himself, DD > pokes him very hard with the tip of his wand, hard enough to > cause Horace a little pain. Again, this one is a bit unnecessary. It rubbed me a bit the wrong way, too. But it is just a poke in the belly, a part of Slughorn's anatomy which has, shall we say, ample padding. So, as for the force of the poke, let me posit (A'), and as for letting Harry see it, (B) provides a plausible explanation. > (3) He is very adamant about his trust of Snape, no matter > what Harry tells him.... [Dumbledore does] not even consider > Harry's suspicions.... Here you fail to take Dumbledore at his word. He says that his trust is not *without regard* to what Harry tells him, but *in spite* of what Harry tells him. He listens carefully to what Harry says, and then indicates that he has other information that casts the facts Harry views as suspicious in a better light. We know only what Harry knows, not what Dumbledore knows, so of course from our [Harry's] perspective Dumbledore's reaction may not seem reasonable, but that does not mean it is unreasonable from Dumbledore's perspective. > (4) When he orders Harry to retrieve the memory from Horace, > he is very angry and short with Harry when Harry tells him he > has failed to do so. He is also short with Harry when it comes > to discussing Severus Snape. Dumbledore has, for the first time, given Harry a job, and Harry is not taking it seriously. This is (B), Dumbledore treating Harry as an adult. Likely also (A'), Dumbledore sensing that time is running out on him. > (5) Perhaps the most important of all...regardless of how > old he is, or whether his reflexes are failing him, DD is a > powerful wizard. When facing LV in the Ministry, he was very > casual, without fear, and was in complete control. Now comes > HBP...he allows a ring to nearly kill him, gravely injuring > him in the process. A potion weakens him to the point of > death. He is disarmed by a mediocre, teenage wizard with no > real talent. Let's cut the guy a bit of a break. At the Ministry he wraps up a half-dozen Death Eaters and then outduels the second most powerful wizard in the world with impressive composure. Within a few weeks of that, he has gotten the injured Order members patched up, finished up the semester at Hogwarts, helped the Order move out of 12GP, located and destroyed the ring horcrux, and started to put his staff in order for the coming year. Yes, he is injured by the ring, but as I pointed out in a post earlier today, Voldemort spent around 30 years exercising his considerable powers to create and hide these horcruxes. As we see with the locket, it's hardly child's play to get at them, much less disarm them. And Dumbledore is working alone when he locates the ring. He still seems to be pretty effective at the cave. They do, after all, manage to penetrate the defenses and retrieve the locket. I don't think Dumbledore can be faulted for being weakened by the potion, which was presumably the vilest thing that Voldemort could dream up in order to protect the horcrux. As for being bested by a "mediocre teenage wizard," Draco has never been portrayed as mediocre, and we saw Voldemort bested by a teenage wizard in book 4, so that part is not unprecedented (particularly given Dumbledore's weakened state). -- Matt From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 23:37:00 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:37:00 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138139 I know Fenrir Greyback is a direct metaphor for pedophiles, but personally it's Slughorn that makes me hugely uneasy sometimes. I believe that JKR purposely depicted him in a way reminiscent of RL pedophiles so as to make us be wary of him. Let me explain. While re-reading HBP at random, I came accross that passage, which is similar to several other passages in the book, and is pretty representative of them I think: UK ed, p. 229, "Silver and opals" "The three of them turned to see Professor Slughorn, who was wearing an enormous furry hat and overcoat with matching fur collar, clutching a large bag of crystallised pineapple and occupying at least a quarter of the shop. 'Harry, that's three of my little suppers you've missed now!' said Slughorn, poking him genially in the chest. 'It won't do, m'boy, I'm determined to have you! Miss Granger loves them, don't you?' 'Yes,' said Hermione helplessly, 'they're really - ' 'So why don't you come along, Harry?' demanded Slughorn. 'Well, I've had Quidditch practice, Professor,' said Harry, who had indeed been scheduling practices every time Slughorn had sent him a little violet-ribbon-adorned invitation. This strategy meant that Ron was not left out and they usually had a laugh with Ginny imagining Hermione shut up with McLaggen and Zabini. 'Well, I certainly expect you to win your first match after all this hard work!' said Slughorn. 'But a little recreation never hurt anybody. Now, how about Monday night, you can't possibly want to practise in this weather...' 'I can't, Professor, I've got - er - an appointment with Professor Dumbledore that evening.' 'Unlucky again!' cried Slughorn dramatically. 'Ah, well... you can't evade me for ever, Harry!'" There are several hints reminiscent of pedophilia in this excerpt that make me deeply uneasy: * the invitation (complete with the cutesy violet ribbon - think Dolores Umbridge, her pink cardigan and her technicolor kittens...) to private parties presented as fun times and "recreation" * the group of select students on whom favours are bestowed and who give favours back, even many years later * the way Slughorn talks about wanting to "have" some kids * the physical touching * Harry doing his best to evade Slughorn * Hermione partly lying about liking the parties (she says later that they are "not that bad", and that they are "even quite fun sometimes") * the not-so-rich older man (he told DD he wanted a rise when he took the job) offering luxury parties to young people * and of course the candy, even if he eats it himself. And when Slughorn throws his Christmas party, he invites a vampire who is *very openly* interested in "feeding" on some of the girls present. So anytime I run accross such a Slughorn scene, I feel uneasy. I know that my personal past history of abuse is for a lot in this unease, but what I'm wondering is whether JKR was really *not* counting on such a reaction? JKR is not stupid, and she's not naive or inexperienced either. I am pretty sure that she knew exactly what she was doing with Slughorn (even the name...), and that she *meant* for this behaviour of Slughorn's to be a red flag for her readers. Don't get me wrong: I am NOT saying that Slughorn IS a pedophile. That would be pointless and out of place in a HP book. Slughorn is no more a pedophile than Fenrir Greyback is, or that Lupin has got AIDS or a RL disability. What I am saying is that JKR crafted a parallel in my eyes between Slughorn and RL pedophiles, and that I think she did that to make us be very wary of Slughorn. Personally, I just can't forget that Slughorn was a teacher at Hogwarts (and Head of Slytherin too I think) both during Tom Riddle's years (which were also the years of Grindelwald), and during VWI - the time of the "gang of Slytherins", Snape, and many other DEs... Some of my questions are: * Why exactly is Slughorn running away from LV and his DEs? Is he even really running away from them? * Is it a coincidence that he so conveniently left his job at Hogwarts just in time for Snape to replace him? Did he do it for himself as he pretends, or for DD, or for LV, or because he was threatened or blackmailed, or for yet another reason? * Is it a coincidence that DD found him to offer him the job? Or did Slughorn let DD find him? * Why does he keep bringing Lily up in front of Harry, while *never* mentioning that she happened to be in the same class as Snape? And why were James and Sirius apparently *not* among his favourites? They were both very smart and well-related... * And what about the HBP book...? There's also the matter of the highly dangerous potions that he presented to his students at the beginning of the year. We already know to what dramatic use Draco put the Polyjuice Potion. The Veritaserum is another extremely dangerous potion. And as for the Amortentia potion, it brings me back to the beginning of my post, and the subtle hints of pedophilia. Was Slughorn discreetly trying to wreak havoc on Hogwarts, by granting students "accidental" access to potent and dangerous potions? And of course there's the matter of the "dirty little secret" that Slughorn so vehemently denied. How come he even *knew* about horcruxes? Why did he accept to discuss them with a student? Why did he keep that discussion a secret for so long? Is it really possible that he didn't recognise LV as being one of his very favourite students, and if he did, why did he *never* mention to anyone that Tom Riddle had asked him about horcruxes? And if he couldn't confess that particular mistake to DD, how can we be sure that he's not hiding some other dirty little secrets? Most of the time, I like Slughorn, when I just go along. But sometimes there are those red flags... JKR did say that HBP and Book 7 could be considered like two parts of the same book, and we know how she can throw seemingly inconsequential clues throughout a book that lead to a huge twist in the end... So, Slughorn makes me uneasy, and I wonder what others think of him. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 22:53:14 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:53:14 -0000 Subject: Merope's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138140 Eric Oppen wrote: "You forgot completely about the events at the Riddle House, seventeen years later. That was at least _three_ AKs, performed by an underage wizard, and probably other magic as well (i.e. an "Alohomora" to get in, "Petrificus Totalus" to hold his victims in place, and a few well- placed "Crucios" wouldn't surprise me) and the Ministry never twigged. Dumbledore suspected, but couldn't prove anything. " Del replies: Oh no I didn't forget at all :-) When you get your hands on your book, please turn to page 342-343, UK ed, ch. "A Sluggish Memory", DD speaking: "'Meanwhile, in the village of Little Hangleton, a maid was running along the high street, screaming that there were three bodies lying in the drawing room of the big house: Tom Riddle Senior, and his mother and father. 'The Muggle authorities were perplexed. As far as I am aware, they do not know to this day how the Riddles died, for the Avada Kedavra Curse does not usually leave any sign of damage... the exception sits before me,' Dumbledore added, with a nod to Harry's scar. 'The Ministry, on the other hand, knew at once that this was a wizard's murder. They also knew that a convicted Muggle-hater lived accross the valley from the Riddle House, a Muggle-hater who had already been imprisoned once for attacking one of the murdered people.'" Since Morfin had been implanted with a false memory of having perpetrated the murders, he proudly confessed on the spot, and the Ministry never looked any further into the matter. Morfin died in Azkaban for crimes that he hadn't committed. Please note that DD says that the Ministry knew *at once* that this was a wizard's murder... And on the next page, DD explains that the Ministry can detect when magic is being performed, but not WHO performs it. Harry is incensed at that, and agrees with DD that this is rubbish, and that Morfin didn't deserve to be imprisoned for crimes he didn't commit, no matter how unpleasant he otherwise was. Eric Oppen wrote: "True enough, although having been abandoned by the man she (thought she) loved, pregnant and penniless, in 1920s London, could account for that. I do not see Merope as having anything like enough knowledge of how the Muggle world worked to be able to get herself help easily, and she certainly wouldn't have been let off the leash enough to know the ropes for the Wizard world, either. " Del replies: That's possible. But since she knew how to get into Knocturn Alley, I'm sure she could have found the way to get to the Ministry, or St Mungo's. I'm sure she *could* have found people to help her, if she had *tried*. A young single woman, pregnant up to her eyes, obviously destitute? I doubt St Mungo's, at the very least, would have refused her. No, I think she didn't *want* help. Now that could very well come from her being completely depressed and hopeless, that's true. But it *could* also come from some kind of curse, or poison, that was meddling with her mind and body, driving her *away* from the places and people who could help her (why go to Knockturn Alley, for example, to sell her locket? I'm sure there are respectable antiquaries in Diagon Alley or elsewhere who would have paid a decent price for that locket, and maybe helped her owner on top of it). There's no way to prove any of it, of course, but I must admit I like this idea better than just "she let herself die". That one is too blah! for me, I must admit. A woman who finds it in herself to go to the end of her pregnancy, to give birth to her baby, but who then abandons him to people who won't be able to care for *all* his needs (chances were high that he would be a wizard)? I don't like it. If at least she hadn't named him after his father and grandfather, I could imagine that she was trying to keep him hidden from Marvolo, safe from his possible vengeance. But the fact that she did name him that way makes me think that she wasn't trying to hide him by giving birth in a Muggle orphanage. So I like the idea that she was under the effect of a curse or a poison that meddled with her mind and prevented her from getting help for herself. JMO, Del From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 00:56:05 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:56:05 -0000 Subject: Who taught DADA before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138141 Perhaps this has been dealt with way back in the archives somewhere, but I found myself wondering about this today and went back to SS/PS to see if Quirrell's predecessor was mentioned. No such professor was named as far as I could find in a quick pass through the book. In fact, there were a couple of things that made me think that Quirrell had in fact been the DADA professor the year before Harry starts. For one, Harry meets Quirrell before school actually starts (on the way to Diagon Alley with Hagrid to pick up his school things), and Quirrell says nothing about teaching DADA for the first time, only that he teaches it. For two, Dumbledore makes no mention of new professors at the welcoming feast that year (as he does in some of the other books). So I see multiple possibilities here: (1) I simply missed something (this is probably the most likely); (2) JKR goofed a little bit in the writing of SS/PS; or (3) JKR did not really settle on the one DADA professor per year idea until *after* writing SS/PS. Am I missing any possibilities? Anyone have thoughts on the three above? Ersatz Harry From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Sat Aug 20 00:56:57 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:56:57 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138142 --- Eggplant wrote: > > If you were a novelist ... what more could you have done than > what JKR did in HBP to convince readers that [a] character has > ... been murdered? Actually, I think there's quite a bit the author could do if she wished to write the scene as clear rather than ambiguous: * She could present a lucid and unconflicted motive for the murder and let the readers hear it confirmed from the perpetrator's mouth. * She could show the perpetrator behaving with the character of a murderer either before or after the killing, instead of an inscrutable gaze before the killing, and after the killing a relatively peaceful retreat, interrupted by a remarkably restrained exchange with a supposedly hated adversary. * She could choose not to start out her writing career with five books involving the same protagonist who observes the murder, where in every book he turns out to be deceived or mistaken about one or more fundamental aspects of what is going on. * She could choose as the perpetrator a character who has not been portrayed with tremendous ambiguity in the eyes of everyone other than that protagonist. * She could choose as the perpetrator a character other than one whose motives and even actions the protagonist has been dead wrong about numerous times in the past. That said, the fact that the scene *looks* like Snape murdering Dumbledore hardly detracts from the view of people who think Snape was *pretending* to murder Dumbledore. All it means is that, if Snape was acting, he did a good job. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:06:46 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:06:46 -0000 Subject: Who is the Narrator? Was: Re: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138143 Cathy Drolet wrote: > > > who exactly do you think the Narrator is? Eggplant: > The Narrator is the fellow who says "Then Harry went over there and > thought this and that". Actually I've heard a rumor that the Narrator > is really a woman but uses a penname. Alla: I am not sure if Cathy meant to say that Harry is a narrator, but he is most definitely not, IMO. I think Eggplant is correct. The narrator is third person limited POV - as I understand it - narrator for the most part is showing events through Harry's eyes, BUT is definitely able to step back or look through other character's eyes, as we saw in chapters 1 and 2 of HBP and in GoF chapter about Riddle House. I wish I had a link to Carol's old excellent post about the narrator in the books. JMO, Alla. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:07:19 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:07:19 -0000 Subject: Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138144 > Antosha-- > > True, both acts involved a person risking his own life and saving someone else. What I'm > trying to say is that while Harry saved Ginny's life, and risked his own, he never stepped in > the way of a curse that Tom Riddle had cast at her, he simply destroyed the threat to her > life, while his father--who had, indeed done ridiculously risky things with his friends in > the name of comradeship and fun--DID step directly between Snape and an werewolf in > full fury. The risk is the same, the life saved has the same value, but the act is > fundamentally different. It is the only way that I can find a logical reason that Harry saving > the Weasleys lives did not invoke a life debt, while his stepping in front of Peter Pettigrew > did. > > The only other distinction that occurs to me is that the wizards perhaps must be enemies. > I guess I could see that. Severus Snape was James's enemy. Peter Pettigrew had shown > himself to be Harry's enemy, yet James saved Snape and Harry saved Pettigrew. I'm not > sure that quite covers it, however. I have a hunch that your second guess is closer to the truth. On the other hand, I have a strong feeling that taking some of Dumbledore's (and, incidentally, JKR's) pronouncements at their face value is not probably a very good idea. I am not saying that either of them has lied of course, but both seem to be great believers in "treating the truth with great caution". And really, what we have been told on the subject of "debts"? In the first book Dumbledore simply stated that Snape "couldn't bear being in your father's debt....". So far so good, but there isn't anything particularly magical about it. In PoA Dumbledore elaborates: "When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." Now this is JKR at her best, because with this perfectly ambiguous phrase she managed to get several different layers of meaning working. There is not a single word in this Dumbledore's statement to suggest that the "bond" in question is indeed magical. Say "man" instead of "wizard" and it would still make perfect sense in our profane muggle world. On the other hand it's wizards we are talking about, so maybe it *is* magical after all. Yet `magic' is also a very multi-layered word. When Dumbledore says for instance "Ah, music a magic beyond all we do here! And now, bedtime. Off you trot!", I presume he didn't mean it in the same sense that, say, `underage magic' . So, the question is what the nature of this "bond" is. Dumbledore is being characteristically vague on the subject. Yet to suggest that it is something that can be "invoked", as you put it, is to undermine its value, I believe. Because in the Potterverse when it comes to really important stuff it's choices that matters. That's why the idea that the mere technicality (Harry's not staying in the way of the curse that was cast on Ginny) would be of more importance that his conscious risking his life, doesn't' sit well with me. (Incidentally, you are quite wrong there, because the "curse" that Riddle "cast" on Ginny was, in effect, himself, well, his dark soul, so to speak. And Harry certainly did step between him and Ginny and stop that curse together with Riddle. As for his father's stepping between Snape and furry Lupin, again, you are wrong: what Lupin actually said was that James had "pulled Snape back". Must have been from behind, I'd say. And Lupin's eulogy notwithstanding I still maintain that risk was reasonably low. For James, that is). And back to the "bond". Suppose you asked Ginny whether she think herself indebted to Harry, what do you think she would answer? I'll bet she would say yes she owes him a life's debt. Any other answer would be monstrously ungrateful. And after HBP we know that there is a "certain bond" between them. So what we are to make of JKR's assurance that Ginny is debt-free? I believe what she actually meant was that Ginny-Harry "bond" does not owe its existence to debts and obligations, but something altogether more pleasant. Whereas Snape- James or Harry-Wormtail "bond" is nothing but acknowledged but perfectly abhorrent obligation. Moral obligation I'd say. On the other hand if music and love turn out to be brands of magic when it comes to wizards, acknowledged debts must also have more power than simple IOU. a_svirn From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Sat Aug 20 01:10:02 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:10:02 +0200 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430682EA.8030901@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138145 >Jody: > >Dumbledore was the secret keeper for 12 Grimauld Place, what happened when >he died? There must have been some kind of back up plan in place to keep it >hidden or is it a case of once the magic is set in place, it must be >deliberately removed? > The secret is probably not a secret anymore. The thing is, if Dumbledore can be the secret keeper of 12 GP, why couldn't James or Lily, or even Harry for that matter be the secret keeper of Godric's Hollow? It's not really consistent. Fabian From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Sat Aug 20 01:14:11 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:14:11 +0200 Subject: Faked death or faked AK? In-Reply-To: <32025905081915241ec9f1af@mail.gmail.com> References: <003f01c59de2$722452c0$6521f204@pensive> <32025905081915241ec9f1af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430683E3.3010209@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138146 > >Sarah: >Why would they want Harry to know the truth? That is the best part >of the whole plan. Harry never learned Occlumency, LV can look into >his head any time he wants. Now when he does, he won't see anything >but his best uberminion being superloyal. Fabian: Clever indeed, however, what about all the other ones of the Order? They all know Snape is with them for real, and playing LV, at least that's the feeling I get from reading the beginning of OoTP. They can't all be that good at Occlumency, can they? Fabian From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 20 01:24:16 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:24:16 -0000 Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138147 Marika wrote: > Another thing I find a bit weird is that Dumbledore instead of taking > his own memories out of his head, he takes them from a bottle. Why? I > can see why he stores other people's memories like that, but surely he > can take his own memories out of his own head???? Thats a good point and one that adds weight to the theory that perhaps it is someone impersonating Dumbledore, otherwise yes why would Dumbledore need to bottle his own memories? It possibly links to my feeling that the Dumbledore that is killed by Snape is an imposter, someone who is part of an elaborate plan by the Order of the Phoenix to outsmart LV and keep Snape's cover as a double agent. I like this theory, however unlikely others may think, because 1. it explains all of D's uncharacteristic mannerisms, including his 'oho' in the cave, and that he could still be alive and in hiding somewhere ready to help Harry defeat LV by working in the background undetected; and 2. It means that Snape could still be on the 'good' side. Regarding Snape, it struck me after re-reading Spinner's End that when Snape makes the unbreakable vow with Narcissa, he pauses before the last promise to complete Draco's deed if Draco fails. Perhaps he felt cornered and unable to refuse without confiming Bella's suspicions of his true loyalty, so he completed the vow. Then perhaps Snape reported this back to Dumbledore and together they came up with a plan to fake D's death. With the polyjuice potion lying around, and the fact that Slughorn can transform, it seems highly likely that someone in HBP is not who they seem. Just my thoughts, and I'm curious to know what others think. Auria From lealess at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:24:52 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:24:52 -0000 Subject: Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > a_svirn: > > Even if you are right in your premise (personally I don't think so, > > but let's say you are) I still can't agree with your conclusions. > > > > Because Harry did indeed willingly risked his life to save Ginny. > > Almost lost it, in point of fact. Whereas James Potter risked his > > in the Shack no more than he had risked it running wild with his > > werewolf friend on numerous occasions. > > > Antosha-- > > True, both acts involved a person risking his own life and saving > someone else. What I'm > trying to say is that while Harry saved Ginny's life, and risked > his own, he never stepped in > the way of a curse that Tom Riddle had cast at her, > he simply destroyed the threat to her > life, while his father--who had, indeed done ridiculously risky > things with his friends in > the name of comradeship and fun--DID step directly between > Snape and an werewolf in > full fury. The risk is the same, the life saved has the same value, > but the act is > fundamentally different. It is the only way that I can find a > logical reason that Harry saving > the Weasleys lives did not invoke a life debt, while his stepping > in front of Peter Pettigrew > did. > > The only other distinction that occurs to me is that the wizards > perhaps must be enemies. > I guess I could see that. Severus Snape was James's enemy. > Peter Pettigrew had shown > himself to be Harry's enemy, yet James saved Snape and > Harry saved Pettigrew. I'm not > sure that quite covers it, however. lealess: The latter sounds plausible to me. If you save the life of someone you hate, they owe you a life debt. James hated Severus, and Harry had every right to hate Peter. How frustrating that must have been for Severus, then, to have no say at all in the creation of the life debt! No wonder he was less than graceful about it, even though it might have been grace that saved him. The other part of life debt creation might be the debtor's culpability for placing themselves in a situation where they needed to be saved. Ginny, Arthur, and Ron were "innocents" when they needed to be saved, for the most part. Peter, however, was hiding to save his own skin, at the very least. Severus might have had impure motives for going to the Shrieking Shack. So, the fact that they didn't "deserve" saving (they were "sinners" maybe?) and yet were saved, might factor into the life debt thing. (Quotes intentional.) I wonder if this factors into Voldemort/Lily at all? Did she save his life as well as Harry's by choosing to die? Nah! Thanks for helping me think this through. lealess From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sat Aug 20 01:27:47 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:27:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) Message-ID: <103.67cb2d19.3037e113@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138149 This is a marvelous essay...you ought to put it on Mugglenet, too. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:28:28 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:28:28 -0000 Subject: Faked death or faked AK?/Plan? What Plan? In-Reply-To: <430683E3.3010209@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138150 > > > >Sarah: > >Why would they want Harry to know the truth? That is the best part > >of the whole plan. Harry never learned Occlumency, LV can look into > >his head any time he wants. Now when he does, he won't see anything > >but his best uberminion being superloyal. > Alla: Well, I believe that in light of Dumbledore statement that Voldemort is now employing Occlumency against Harry, the chance that he would indeed look and risk Harry seeing his secret plans is not very high. I believe that if indeed Dumbledore and Snape planned anything, they definitely should have told Harry in light of that, because that would be so not smart, IMO to increase Harry's hatred of someone who is supposed to help him at the crucial moment, or even if that someone is just supposed to pass him some crucial information. So, I am with Sherry, if such plan existed, I would consider the executution of it to be very poorly thought out. > Fabian: > Clever indeed, however, what about all the other ones of the Order? They > all know Snape is with them for real, and playing LV, at least that's > the feeling I get from reading the beginning of OoTP. They can't all be > that good at Occlumency, can they? > Alla: I agree. Surely Dumbledore and Snape would wanted to have at least one ally in the Order who could have maybe collected information and pass it to Harry, no? Anyways, whether Harry would be proven right or wrong at the end and as I said earlier my suspicion is that he would be proven right for the major part ( as in Snape indeed killed DD because of his cowardice, but he may commit some act of redemption at the end), I really like that Harry is not alone now in his mistrust of Snape. This is of course only my opinion, Alla. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:33:41 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:33:41 -0000 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <430682EA.8030901@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fabian Peng K?rrholm wrote: > >Jody: > > > >Dumbledore was the secret keeper for 12 Grimauld Place, what happened when > >he died? There must have been some kind of back up plan in place to keep it > >hidden or is it a case of once the magic is set in place, it must be > >deliberately removed? > > > > > The secret is probably not a secret anymore. The thing is, if Dumbledore > can be the secret keeper of 12 GP, why couldn't James or Lily, or even > Harry for that matter be the secret keeper of Godric's Hollow? It's not > really consistent. > > Fabian Maybe because they weren't secret keepers in the first place? Wormtail was the keeper and as soon as he betrayed their secret it naturally ceased being one. Simple as that. Again, since Dumbledore did not betray his secret I suppose it still stays secret. That's why Sirius said that Wormtail should have died rather than betrayed Lilly and James: had he chosen death he would have taken the secret to his grave, the Potters would have lived, Harry wouldn't have been orphaned and there would have been no story for us to read. a_svirn From merpsiren at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:38:02 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (merpsiren) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:38:02 -0000 Subject: The Unbreakable Vow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138152 My husband and I were just discussing this and I wanted to throw an idea out for everyone to chew on... When Snape made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa promising to protect Draco, and to step in if Draco was unable to complete the task set him by Voldemort... I note that there are no time restraints in the vow. Example: I will step in to kill DD before the end of June. Instead it seems to be open for the rest of your life... as long as Draco is trying to harm DD, I will step in to help. 1) Draco attempts to attack Dumbledore by sending him the silver and opal necklace... and is "unable to complete the task"... nothing happens to Snape when he doesn't step in to help Draco complete the task. 2) Draco poisons the oak-matured mead that Slughorn intends to give to Dumbledore as a Christmas gift... and the gift doesn't end up with DD, Snape is not stepping up to that attempt on DD life... and Snape faces no reprecussions from the Vow. It appears that the vow is so open-ended that it seems to create a GIGANTIC loophole. So... for those of you who believe that DD may still be alive and faking his own death (I'm undecided) this is the possible loophole that would allow for the charade. So, who enforces the vow? Who is to say you have met up to the terms? -Kris From jasmine0365 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 22:25:11 2005 From: jasmine0365 at yahoo.com (Jeanelle Topping) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now For Something Different - Potential Chess Pieces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050819222511.99690.qmail@web50905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138153 I propose a challenge to come up with the most appropriate characters to use as chess pieces on both sides of the board (good vs evil). As a guide, remember in chess pawns are worth 1 point each (8 of them); knights (2) and bishops (2) are worth 3 points; rooks (2) are worth five; the queen (1) is 10, and the king (1) is paramount .. no points assigned because if you lose the king, you lost the game. The latter point might cause some debate over the king. Dumbledore would normally seem like a good choice, but would you still have a story without him? Or, for that reason, might a young Harry be suitable as the king? Looking forward to replies. Jeanelle. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 20 01:51:16 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:51:16 -0000 Subject: The Truth..Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138154 > hg: > I've been thinking the same thing. The idea that Dumbledore's death > was faked hasn't been warmly received on any board, so I've been "in > the closet" on this one. But I've been collecting evidence and re- > reading carefully; I've got a lot of indicators that it happened, but > without being able to secure a motive, I've been reluctant to post. > > I don't think that the portrait means that Dumbledore is necessarily > dead. I don't buy the AK. The funeral had too many bells and > whistles. And I do think Slughorn himself appeared in the office > afterward. If Dumbledore's death was faked, nobody died on that > Tower, in my opinion. (Except DE Gibbon.) > > I have pages of ideas, quotes, inconsistencies. Vivian, you seem > interested; anyone else? > hg. Hi hg, Just came across your post and I am a big believer in Dumbledore faking his death,so am interested to hear your ideas, quotes etc. You said you can't secure a motive. Well let me try here. Dumbledore knows that LV can link into Harry's thoughts just as Harry could link to LV's before LV started operating occlumency against Harry. So logically Dumbledore would not want Harry to know of any plot to outsmart LV and defeat him in case LV can practise legilimens on Harry and find out. Also if Snape really is a triple agent and ultimately is on Dumbledore's side (as Dumbeldore trusts him implicitly) then again he would have to keep that a secret from Harry too to protect his true aims from LV. On this same topic, for Snape to fight against Bellatrix's suspicion and convince her that he really is a DE, then what better way but to agree to the unbreakable vow. Snape is a superb occlumens and was looking directly into Narcissa's eyes when they made the vow so he could have known in advance what she was going to ask him. I think the final request for Snape to complete the task if Draco fails maybe was unxpected as he does pause before agreeing to this one. And perhaps because of Snape's need to complete the vow, that he hen informed Dumbledore of this act and together with Slughorn came up with a plan to fake D's death and use Snape's completion of his vow to maintain LV's acceptance of his loyalty. That would tie in both objectives, giving Dubledore the bonus of being able to search for horcruxes undetected and to help Harry defeat LV. As for the portrait in the headmaster's office, I'm sure that could easily be faked too, especially as Dumbledore was sleeping in it when it first appeared. Any further thoughts theories and ideas (or objections!) welcome :-) Auria From kjones at telus.net Sat Aug 20 01:51:55 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:51:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's over, Snape is evil (+a Horcrux Thought) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43068CBB.1080805@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138155 eggplant107 wrote: > Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > I think the only logical move for > > Voldemort will be to check each > > horcrux to make sure that most > > of them are alright. > > Why? Dumbledore said Voldemort couldn't tell if one of his Harcruxes > was destroyed and he has no reason to believe anybody but him even > knows about them. > > Eggplant Kathy writes: Because of his fear of death, going to that much trouble and risk to even make the horcruxes, his continuing life depending on the horcruxes, knowing that he has been out of commission for fourteen years and anything could have happened, and knowing that Lucius has already been instrumental in destroying one of them, why would you consider for a moment that he wouldn't be bothered checking the rest? He knows that his curse screwed up trying to kill Harry, he knows that Harry has a mental connection to him, he undoubtedly has been told that Harry speaks Parseltongue, the prophesy describes Harry as the one who has the power to destroy him. If you were Voldemort, would you not want to make sure that your little life-savers were still safe? Would you not want to be just a little reassured that all was well with your "most precious" secrets? I think! The reason he has to physically check is because he can't feel them or tell any other way if they are safe. JMO KJ From ehteshamulh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:51:27 2005 From: ehteshamulh at yahoo.com (ehteshamulh) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:51:27 -0000 Subject: In defence of (Uncharacteristic) Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138156 If it is true that Dumbledore feels his time coming to an end, then his interview with the Dursleys is a final interaction for summarizing the reason that Harry was fostered with them and a request to let Harry return once more to Privet Drive. Knowing how strongly Dumbledore feels about Harry, and how he has been treated by the Dursleys all these years, I think Dumbledore is excercising remarkable restraint. Also remember, no doubt Dumbledore feels guilt for all the abuse Harry suffered through while growing up, because it was Dumbledore himself who made that choice about Harry's upbringing. And what's all this about him being disarmed? Dumbledore has consistently shown how important he thinks Harry is, both as an individual and as regards the grand scheme of things (his reaction when LV possesses Harry, the "your blood is more valuable" comment in the cave). He is making a choice here, giving up a potential chance at self-defence to keep Harry immobilized and safe (at least to Dumbledore's mind). And as a final thought about being polite to the extreme, the conversation that Dumbledore has with the Death Eaters on the Tower was amazing: here was Dumbledore at his most defenseless, and still showing impeccable poise: "Jokes? No, no, these are manners." To paraphrase another Master for the light: "When one hundred and fifty years old, wandless, and surrounded by enemies you are, be as full of grace you will not." Hmm? Ehtesham From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 20 02:02:15 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:02:15 -0000 Subject: Faked death or faked AK?/Plan? What Plan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138157 > > Fabian: > > Clever indeed, however, what about all the other ones of the > Order? They > > all know Snape is with them for real, and playing LV, at least > that's > > the feeling I get from reading the beginning of OoTP. They can't > all be > > that good at Occlumency, can they? > > > Alla: > > I agree. Surely Dumbledore and Snape would wanted to have at least > one ally in the Order who could have maybe collected information and > pass it to Harry, no? Auria: Dont forget that 'LV is the most accomplished legilimens the world has ever seen'. This means that he could easily read anyones thoughts including those in the Order. As Snape is himself an accomplishes occlumens, and LV seems to trust him, Snape is the only person Dumbledore can trust with such delicate and important plans to defeat LV. This may make some sense as to why Harry or seemingly other members of the Order would not know that Dumbledore has faked his own death - its to protect both the plan and the Order members, who could be targets if LV ever suspected them of knowing something. Auria From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 02:12:06 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:12:06 -0000 Subject: what was Dumbledore's plan, really? In-Reply-To: <20050818173247.65861.qmail@web33803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138158 Virginia: What if Siruis voluntarily decided to take that task to himself, because he felt useless to the Order and wanted to do something important to help defeat Voldemort. If this is the case, maybe some other member of the order has to kill Siruis, (Tonks maybe?) but make it appear as if Sirius was murdered by Death Eaters to avoid suspicions about Siruis death. Bookworm: I tried to respond yesterday, but luck or Yahoo!mort was against me ? the system crashed just as I was getting ready to click Send. :-( Anyway, this idea seems to fit Sirius' personality. IMO, however, if Sirius had volunteered, Harry wouldn't have seen the "look of fear and surprise" (OoP, Ch35) on his face when Sirius fell. Virginia: It also would explain why Tonks felt so miserable and guilty about Sirius death? Bookworm: I don't think Sirius and Tonks knew each other very well. She would have been only about 8 years old when Sirius went to Azkaban. And Sirius said that Tonks' *mother* was his favorite cousin, not Tonks. I thought it was pretty clear at the end of HBP that Tonks' depression was because of Remus' rejection, not because of her cousin's death. Ravenclaw Bookworm From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 02:20:06 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:20:06 -0000 Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Auria" wrote: > I like this theory, however unlikely others may think, because 1. it > explains all of D's uncharacteristic mannerisms, including his 'oho' > in the cave, I touched on this in a post a few weeks back; the "oho" was not limited to Dumbledore. Though I unfortunately did not note where in HBP it occurs, Hagrid uses an "oho" as well, I think fairly early in the book. Do we therefore conclude that Hagrid was acting uncharacteristically? Of course not. My guess is that the "oho" was just one of those repetive tics that JKR had in her head during the writing of HBP, nothing more. Ersatz Harry From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 20 02:21:47 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:21:47 -0000 Subject: The Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138160 Kris: > My husband and I were just discussing this and I wanted to > throw an > idea out for everyone to chew on... > > When Snape made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa > promising to protect Draco, and to step in if Draco was > unable to complete the task set him by Voldemort... > > I note that there are no time restraints in the vow. > Example: I will step in to kill DD before the end of June. > Instead it seems to be open for the rest of your life... > as long as Draco is trying to harm DD, I will step in to help. [..] > It appears that the vow is so open-ended that it seems to > create a > GIGANTIC loophole. > [...] > > So, who enforces the vow? Who is to say you have met up to the terms? houyhnhnm: Since we are given no information about how the UV works (except from Ron: You die), I have been wondering if it works something like an Irish geis. I'd have to go back and read some of the Irish myths again to give specific examples but, but it seems like when you break a geis, you don't just drop dead on the spot. You get overtaken by misfortune, killed in battle--something like that. So, in a way, the Unbreakable Vow is catching up with Snape all year. If the Vow is open-ended as you say, I think that argues for Loyal!Snape. It would be in Evil!Snape's best interest to get it over with as soon as possible, but Snape's actions during HBP make it look like he's trying to run out the clock and take his chances. I think that's what the meltdown on the lawn is about. He doesn't get the chance to find out if he would have had the courage to just blow it off and take the consequences. From prep0strus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 02:38:49 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:38:49 -0000 Subject: Now For Something Different - Potential Chess Pieces In-Reply-To: <20050819222511.99690.qmail@web50905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jeanelle Topping wrote: > I propose a challenge to come up with the most > appropriate characters to use as chess pieces on both > sides of the board (good vs evil). As a guide, > remember in chess pawns are worth 1 point each (8 of > them); knights (2) and bishops (2) are worth 3 points; > rooks (2) are worth five; the queen (1) is 10, and the > king (1) is paramount .. no points assigned because if > you lose the king, you lost the game. The latter point > might cause some debate over the king. Dumbledore > would normally seem like a good choice, but would you > still have a story without him? Or, for that reason, > might a young Harry be suitable as the king? Looking > forward to replies. > > Jeanelle. This seemed fun, so I thought I'd give it a go... then I realized how hard it was as well. I didn't want to have to qualify too much, but what to do w/ characters we don't know if they're evil or not? How about characters who have since died? What about characters that might not bow to Voldmort but wind up working towards evil? Does importance of the character have an influence, or just their rank in the respective armies? And of course, the volume of characters means there are many that don't even make it to pawn. But I'll try. So, here goes: The Good Guys King: Harry Queen: Dumbledore Rook: Hermione Rook: Ron Bishop: Snape Bishop: Ginny Knight: Sirius Knight: Hagrid Pawn: Neville Pawn: Luna Pawn: Fred Pawn: George Pawn: Moody Pawn: Arthur Pawn: Lupin Pawn: Tonks Alternates: Molly, McGonagal, Kingsley, Bill, Charlie I figure Harry has to be king - he goes, game over. Dumbledore, w/ the most power, is his Queen (deceased?). I decided to go with character importance to help rank them. Next in importance, Harry's main supporters, his best friends. Bishops & Knights, our good old Hagrid, rising star Ginny, lost Sirius, and.... the wild card. IF he turns out to be good - Snape will certainly be amongst the most important pieces the side of good has. Then, the pawns: Neville & Luna seem to be the DA's star members, sure to play an important part. Fred & George won't be left out of the mix, and as characters and members of the OotP, Moody, Arthur, Lupin, & Tonks are other important pawns. Probably almost equal to these, however, would be my listed alternates. I feel bad not having Molly & McGonagal on there - perhaps they should replace Tonks & Moody as they are more vital characters to the series, but they seem less directly involved w/ the war. Judgement call. Now, the Evil Side King: Voldemort Queen: Snape Rook: Crouch Rook: Belatrix Bishop: Lucius Bishop: Narcissa Knight: Fenrir Knight: Wormtail Pawn: Quirrell Pawn: Macnair Pawn: Avery Pawn: Lestrange Pawn: Lestrange Pawn: Crabbe Pawn: Goyle Pawn: Draco Alternates: Nott, Big Blond, Antonin, Umbridge This is harder, without having much contact. Voldemort has to be king, but I almost made him his own queen!! Again, here is Snape - because if he turns out to be evil, he will certainly be Voldemort's greatest asset. Rooks are the amazingly loyal and evil Belatrix, and the deceased Crouch who Voldemort counted as his greatest servent. Bishops are the esteemed Malfoys, though maybe Narcissa isn't quite as evil as the Dark Lord might hope... The Knights are our animal evil doers - newcomer Fenrir and the still vital Wormtail. In the pawns category, there's the 'true' pawn Quirrel, and assortment of Death Eaters. Crabbe & Goyle... does it even matter if we're talking father or son? Draco... maybe he won't wind up on the side of evil, but right now, he is certainly an evil pawn, and has the character importance to make the list. In the alternates, some of our intriguing other Death Eaters, along w/ Umbridge, who is unpleasant enough to make the list, even if she doesn't work directly for Voldemort - she winds up doing his work. (Shades of Aslan's speech in The Last Battle) Feel free to disagree. This was fun :) ~Prep0strus From marianne at twcny.rr.com Sat Aug 20 00:29:35 2005 From: marianne at twcny.rr.com (marelovinglife) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:29:35 -0000 Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138162 Marika wrote: > Another thing I find a bit weird is that Dumbledore instead of taking > his own memories out of his head, he takes them from a bottle. Why? I > can see why he stores other people's memories like that, but surely > he can take his own memories out of his own head???? Perhaps this is to tell Harry where he can find additional memories of DD's (for JKR to use in book 7) He may have a shelf of these memory jars for Harry to explore..... Marianne From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Aug 20 03:14:46 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:14:46 -0000 Subject: In the cave... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138163 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "twobeaglegirl" wrote: > > I'm sorry if this theory has been explored before, but has anyone > considered the possibility that the horcrux in the cave could have > possibly been the liquid in which the locket was immersed, and not > the locket itself? > > It might explain why drinking it caused DD so much anguish, and it > could also tie into the necessity of "notESE!Snape" having to AK > him, so that the horcrux (now inside DD) would be destroyed. > > Just a thought. > > --2 beagles When I first read RAB's note, I misread the initials and thought Dumbledore had written it, saying that he found the REAL Horcrux. I thought that he meant the REAL Horcrux was the potion, not the locket. I though to myself, "Oh, how clever of her to write it that way, of COURSE Dumbeldore had to die, he drank the potion!" Then about 5 pages later, I went back and reread the note and ended up confused again. :) But I liked the idea of Potion=Horcrux up till then. Allie From tifflblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 20 03:46:09 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:46:09 -0700 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <430682EA.8030901@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138164 Fabian: The secret is probably not a secret anymore. The thing is, if Dumbledore can be the secret keeper of 12 GP, why couldn't James or Lily, or even Harry for that matter be the secret keeper of Godric's Hollow? It's not really consistent. Tiffany: Oh my. That makes me think. I wonder if Harry will be able to find his parents' home in Godrick hollow, or will he have to get the secret from Wormtail somehow? Maybe since Harry really isn't looking specifically for James or lily, he'll be able to find the place no problem though, because maybe the secret was where they were, not where the house was. Any guesses? Tiffany. From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 03:53:19 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:53:19 -0000 Subject: Snape: the Riddle... (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" wrote: > However, the most compelling pressure issues not from Bella, but from > her sister, whose tears flow freely, who clutches at Snape's > robes, > holds his hands and throws herself at his feet. She strokes his > ego: "you could do it," she says, "you are the Dark > Lord's > favourite", "you are Draco's favourite teacher", > "/you/ would > succeed". All pretty transparent to this sceptical observer ? > but > Narcissa has touched a nerve. Consider who she is, where she is and > with whom she is pleading. Narcissa Black Malfoy, an elegant, > beautiful and upper-class pure-blood has alighted on a "Muggle > dunghill" to humbly beg the help of the ugly, frustrated and > unpopular son of a spinner ? a half-blood wizard who craves > recognition, whose only pathetic claim to nobility lies in the sound > of his mother's name, who has painstakingly eradicated any sign > of > his origins in his diction and dress but somehow never found the > acceptance and admiration he considers his due. If Narcissa is used > to calling him Severus, it is probably because she has never needed > to accord him the privilege of being addressed as /Mr Snape/. No > doubt a portion of his brain tells him that he finds himself in a > danger zone (mark his unease at the sight of her tears); but his > vanity and pride send signals that are too strong for so weak a man > to resist. Snape is deeply enjoying his power over Pretty Cissy. He > says yes, not out of the goodness of his heart, but because it is his > moment of triumph over all he has wanted to be but has not been able > to reach. He has finally come to the point where he can bow down to > pick up a pure-blooded aristocratic beauty from where she is > grovelling in the dust. > Stupid, stupid, stupid. The trap closes, and Narcissa has him where > she wants him: on his knees and firmly bound by a powerful spell. > When she slips in her third clause it is too late for Snape to do > anything else than twitch and endure. He is forced to condemn himself > three times. Yes. There is more to Narcissa than meets the eye. In GOF she appears in the Top Box "wearing a look that suggested there was a nasty smell under her nose." That attitude is completely diguised at Spinner's End. When Bella and Narcissa apparate near Spinner's End, Cissy appears with a very faint pop, and Bella materializes with a louder pop. This suggests that Cissy is the more able witch. We know from the battle in the Ministry of Magic that Bellatrix is extremely skilled. If Cissy is even better, that is quite impressive. In GOF, when the reborn LV summons the Death Eaters to his side, Lucius Malfoy has a place in the circle but Narcissa does not. (In the circle, Wormtail is on Lucius's left and on his right is a gap for Bellatrix Lestrange and her husband, who are still in Azkaban.) How does she manage to avoid becoming a Death Eater when her husband, her brother in law and her own sister are all members of the group? Does she have some sort of special position with Lord Voldemort? At HPFGU Snape is often compared to a spider. Perhaps that description fits Narcissa even better, and she is able to camouflage her true character behind long blonde hair, pale skin and tears. In any case, you have given us an excellent description of how one spider has caught another, unsuspecting, in her web. Merrylinks From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 04:06:04 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:06:04 -0000 Subject: The Importance of the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138166 > Betsy Hp: > Thank goodness Dumbledore disagrees! He certainly saw *something* > worth saving in Draco. And I do think their final conversation in > HBP will have ramifications in book 7. You're probably right. I doubt she would set up Draco like that and not pay it off somehow. I just hope Draco plays a relatively minor role in the important doings of book seven. He's pathetic as a villian and unsympathetic as a hero. > Betsy Hp: > Yes, because only the super brave have the guts to kill an unarmed > and wounded old man while surrounded by their meanest, nastiest > buddies [/sarcasm]. Sorry, but the whole, measuring > Draco's "bravery" by his unwillingness to kill Dumbledore is... odd > to me. I'm not measuring his bravery, I'm measuring his sincerity. I was simply pointing out that I don't think he didn't pull the trigger out of a moral imperative to not do another person harm. He was just too scared to do it. I don't see anything noble in that. > Squeamishness, I'll buy. Draco (like Harry) is not too enamored of > the reality of killing another human being. I take that as a good > thing, actually. And I believe JKR shares the viewpoint. Looking > at the known killers in her books (Voldemort, Pettigrew, Barty > Crouch Jr., Grayback) killing doesn't seem like the way to win > universal admiration. Even the most ardent Snape-fan recognizes > that the fact that Snape has killed cannot be treated lightly. He didn't have any problem with killing when he was safely away from the backlash. If his enemies died from a hand other than his own, I doubt he would shed a tear. If Harry were in genuine, immediate harm I don't think he would help. He doesn't want to get his hands dirty, but if bad things happen to his enemies he doesn't really seem to care. Thats what seperates him from Harry. > Betsy Hp: > Hey, I'm only working with what JKR gave me. I see the Draco she > wants me to see. If it seems rosy colored to you, take it up with > her. I think you see the Draco you want to see, the same as I do and never the twain shall meet :) > Betsy Hp: > I cover all that in my post on Draco's choice: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136980 > > "Honestly, I think that when Dumbledore gives Draco a benediction of > sorts, ("you are not a killer") the very fact that Draco then feels > the need to confess ("but I've done things that don't bear that > out!") speaks to Draco's remorse. If he hadn't cared about what > he'd done to Katie or Ron I don't think he'd have thought to bring > them up. Especially since, as Dumbledore points out, they were > examples of some rather pathetic attempts on Draco's part." > > Of course, you may disagree. They were only pathetic by the standards of the great and powerful Dumbledore. They both did nearly work on other people. I bet neither Ron nor Katie consider them pathetic and Dumbledore should think twice before forgiving Draco on the behalf of others. I think that scene demonstrates Dumbledore's greatest weakness and his most annoying trait. He is on such a different plane of magical power and knowledge/experience that he doesn't really get simple human emotions. What would Ron or Katie think about Dumbledore using valuable resources to hide a boy who should be in Azakban for what he did to those two students? It is rude and disrespectful of what the two of them went through. Same with Harry and Snape. Dumbledore has never acknowledged that Harry's hateful feelings towards Snape are absolutely legitimate and understandable. When Harry learns Snapes actions with the prophecy, dumbledore completely shuts Harry down when Harry has every right to be pissed. It's like Dumbledore can't even understand why Harry would be angry. > > >>Phoenixgod: > > Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent, Flint, the nameless cheating > > bastard members of the Quiddich team, the house members who > > refused to stand for Cedric, and all the ones wearing Potter > > Stinks badges back during GoF. > > Betsy Hp: > Which leads me make to my original question: has Harry ever > conversed with any other Slytherin (with the same caveat you > snipped - Quidditch barbs don't count)? When I mentioned the quiddich team, I wasn't counting trash talk. You should hear the things I say to my friends on the fencing strip. I was refering to their dangerous level of cheating in some of the games. I also forgot, weren't there other Slytherins with Draco when he played that Dementor trick on Harry? > Two small points of order: No one refused to stand for Cedric. Some > *did* refuse to stand for Harry. Yu are very right about that. I haven't read GoF in years and I got both scenes jumbled up in my head. still, I think the fact that they don't stand for Harry doesn't say anything good about them. Those wearing Potter Stinks badges > included every house except for Gryffindor. I believe Hufflepuff > was quite enthusastic (not thrilled with Harry trying to steal their > boy's spot-light, IIRC). True, but IIRC they still stood for Harry in the end. The only ones who were bad sports were the slytherins. > Betsy Hp: > Because he hasn't been treated badly by any Slytherin except Draco? But that just isn't true. Draco has had plenty of allies against Harry potter. When slytherins leave him alone, he leaves them alone. Blaize Zabini, Theo Nott, and Daphne Greegrass aren't on Harry's enemy list, because they haven't done anything to him. > And to reverse the question, no Slytherin has ever been treated well > by Harry, why should they work to seek him out and be nice to him? like I say above Harry has never demonstrated a problem with any slytherin other than the ones that seem to have a problem with him. As for why they should be nice to him? My answer is why shouldn't they? Isn't politeness and not trying to kill/humiliate a person sort of the default moral position? > > >>Phoenixgod: > > I was disappointed that there wasn't more laying the ground work > > for house unity in this book. > > > > Betsy Hp: > Sure there was! That was what the Slug club was all about. It was > a bit more elitist than the DA, but it did include *all* of the > houses, so that was good. And it forced Harry to interact with > students he'd never spoken with before, including some of his > Slytherin classmates. I think the slug club was a little thin to be the sort of ground laying I am thinking about. it was too isolated from the rest of the school to help bring them all together. It is a little help but not much, imo. phoenixgod2000 From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 04:38:25 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:38:25 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138167 eggplant: > Not true, one other person saw Snape kill Dumbledore, the Narrator; > and in 6 books the Narrator has never EVER been wrong. The Narrator > never saw Sirius Black kill anyone, he just saw people say they saw > him do it. And the Narrator never said he saw Barty Crouch Jr die in > Azkaban, he just heard people claim they had seen it. But things are > quite different in the Snape Dumbledore murder, the Narrator saw it, > he saw all of it and saw it first hand, he was not shy about telling > we readers all about it either. zgirnius: The death of Barty Jr. in prison was, of course, faked through the use of Polyjuice Potion. The Narrator would not have told us this, any more than she told us that Moody wasn't Moody in GoF. So the Dumbledore Death Scene certainly *could* have been faked in a similar way. (Either another man died, but looked like DD, or some variant involving faked deaths, etc.) I do not know whether Cathy is a proponent of such a theory... However, I would not argue with you about the basic physical facts of the case (much). Severus Snape did indeed bring about the death of Albus Dumbledore as described by the Narrator, I would agree. But murder is a crime of intent, the malicious killing of a fellow human being. (If Snape had tripped over his long black robe and accidentally AK'd DD instead of a DE, the man would be just as dead, but we would not be discussing a murder...) The Narrator limits herself to telling us about Harry's thoughts and feelings, and leaves us to guess at those of the other characters. She also limits our knowledge of the circumstances of the action to match what Harry knows. Chapter 2 is doubtless relevant here, and the obvious exception. But we do not know whether Snape knew what he was promising or not there. So your simple linear Snape promised to kill DD, Snape then *did* kill DD is assuming something not in canon. Snape *may* have promised to perform some task at that point unknown to him... We also know of at least one other significant interaction relevant to the events, but not what transpired. (The argument overheard by Hagrid.) There is also the possibility of additional communication between Dumbledore and Snape about which we at present to not even have a clue. (For example, when Harry tells DD about the UV, DD seems awfully confident. It is entirely possible this is because he and Snape had talked. Of course, Snape could have lied to him. On the other hand, he could have told the truth. We just do not know.) All these things the Narrator might choose to keep from us could mean the killing we saw was not a murder, but one of a number of other things which have been proposed: ther destruction of a Horcrux, or, the destruction of an Inferius, or, a mercy killing of someone in the final terminal stages of the Cave Potion, or a killing at Dumbledore's own request, and probably even other creative options proposed in posts I may have missed. It could also, of course, have been a calculated, traitorous murder, carried out at the moment of maximum ease of execution, no argument. But the Narrator has not settled the issue. From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 04:51:10 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:51:10 -0000 Subject: Spinners End and Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138168 For some reason I keep thinking of the fact that in Chapter 2 Snape makes an unbreakable vow, yet in Chapter 3 we have Dumbledore with a withered wing, so to speak... Makes me wonder if all of these theories of Dumbledore 'saving' Snape from an untimely death by allowing himself to be martyred might be wrong. What if Dumbledore had taken Snape's place for some reason, and ended up taking an Unbreakable Vow to kill himself...then you would see results immediately...and the end result could be a blackened wand hand. KathyO From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 04:55:04 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:55:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: <007201c5a0b9$9a286660$b8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138169 zgirnius: Interesting thread...I'm responding to a couple of posts... Lupinlore: >Not at all! Many Snape-Evil people (I don't include myself with them, > by the way, since I think Snape has definite Good AND definite Evil in > his character) point out that the thing that is worse than death is > having your soul ripped into shreds by murder, thus condemning > yourself to a nightmare partial existance. And why would Dumbledore, > the epitome of goodness, ask someone to do that to themselves? zgirnius: If Dumbledore tells Snape to kill him, is Snape's killing of Dumbledore a murder? (Especially in circumstances where DD gives excellent, cogent, convincing reasons why this must be done, is firmly convinced of the necessity, holds to his resolution for a long period of time so that it is not just a whim, and is in his right mind, to eliminate some obvious problems...and of course, if this is *why* Snape kills him.) > CathyD now: > > Dumbledore didn't ask Snape to kill him. Never. He made it clear to Snape that since Snape had made the *choice* to make the Unbreakable Vow, he could not, if put in the position to do so, break it. Their Legilimency conversation on the tower was quite simply *Severus* 'you cannot break the Vow you chose to make.' *Severus, please* 'you need to do what you said you would do when you took the Vow.' zgirnius: I don't really understand the distinction here, maybe it is about how you think the UV works? Snape *could* refuse to carry out the terms of the Vow, it seems, and in so doing would avoid becoming a murderer. (Although I think it is a lot to assume that he is not one already, as he is a former DE...) If DD is telling him to keep the Vow, and he is aware of the terms of the Vow (he would have to be, really, for your hypothetical conversation to make sense at that moment), then he *is* telling Snape to kill him. The UV does not take away all of Snape's choices-just at the critical juncture, they narrow down to two (kill DD, or die). From kjones at telus.net Sat Aug 20 05:04:41 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:04:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Now For Something Different - Potential Chess Pieces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4306B9E9.3070704@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138170 prep0strus wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jeanelle Topping > wrote: > > I propose a challenge to come up with the most > > appropriate characters to use as chess pieces on both > > sides of the board (good vs evil). As a guide, > > remember in chess pawns are worth 1 point each (8 of > > them); knights (2) and bishops (2) are worth 3 points; > > rooks (2) are worth five; the queen (1) is 10, and the > > king (1) is paramount .. no points assigned because if > > you lose the king, you lost the game. The latter point > > might cause some debate over the king. Dumbledore > > would normally seem like a good choice, but would you > > still have a story without him? Or, for that reason, > > might a young Harry be suitable as the king? Looking > > forward to replies. > > Jeanelle. Kathy writes: I am going to choose only living characters as I believe that only they will have a part to play or influence on the rest of the story. So here goes The Good Guys King: Harry Queen: Snape Rook: Lupin Rook: Tonks Bishop: Hagrid Bishop: McGonnagal Knight: Hermione Knight: Ron Pawn: Neville Pawn: Luna Pawn: Moody Pawn: Scrimgeour Pawn: Arthur Pawn: Bill Pawn: Charley Pawn: Ginny Alternates: Dobby, a Goblin, three house ghosts, Ollivander I also believe that Harry should be the King. His moves always seem to depend on the other players and his choices seem more limited to me. I like Snape for Queen because this is one of the most powerful pieces and I think will have the most effect on the other pieces. The next four pieces were harder because they are Harry's main help. Bishops and knights are powerful pieces and will be the protectors and information gatherers. The pawns are people that have something to bring to Harry, either assistance, dragons, curse-breakers, fighting abiltiies and the ability to think critically. The alternates are suspected of having parts to play, but what that might be is not as yet clear. The Bad Guys King: Voldemort Queen: Bellatrix Rook: Wormtail Rook: Snape Bishop: Fenrir Biship: Lucius Knight: Lestrange Knight: Lestrange Pawn: Draco Pawn: Narcissa Pawn: Avery Pawn: MacNair Pawn: Amycus Pawn: Alecto Pawn: Dementer Pawn: Giant Alternates: Bloody Baron, Crabbe, Goyle Poor Voldemort seems to have an inherent weakness in his list of supporters. Bellatrix is in a powerful position but is mad as a hatter and I think apt to be somewhat unreliable and easily distracted. Snape and Wormtail, normally loyal positions both have some issues with who they are actually loyal to. Fenrir has his own agenda, and Lucius is in Azkaban, which seems by far the safest place for him to be. The Lestranges seem to be relatively effective as fighters, but neither is in a leadership role. I see Draco as a true pawn as he was sent in with the intention of sacrificing him in the attempt to make a gain. The other pawns have little to add to the struggle as they are not long on brains or skill, from what we have seen of them so far. The loyalty of the Bloody Baron is as yet undetermined. Crabbe and Goyle do not seem to add a great deal whether senior or junior, but are available for muscle. KJ From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 06:51:39 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:51:39 -0000 Subject: An almost plausible explanation for how the cave was found. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138171 Saraquel: At last, I think I've come up with something almost plausible for how someone found the cave. It's still got gaping holes, but I think it holds together as well as the other theories currently available and I have found some canon support for it. I said I'd be willing to drop Transfigured!Horcrux for a plausible explanation :-) This theory could work for a Lucius/Regulus/Kreacher scenario. But the "great wizard" needed to penetrate the cave defences would have to be Kreacher IMO, with his elf "powerful brand of magic" (sorry can't give you chapter and verse on that quote ? can't remember where it comes in the books.) Depending on your POV, fortunately or unfortunately, it could also work for a Snape/Regulus pairing ? with Snape as the "great wizard". And I must admit that he is the only character in the books other than DD and Voldemort, who would fit that requirement, as far as I'm concerned. At this point, anyone reading this immediately takes sides and cocks their weapons. So before you start, I think this one most strongly supports OFH!ESE!Snape (Out for himself, Ever so evil, if you're new to the list.) Am I about to lose 65% or so, of my readers before I even start, or will they make a case for Lucius/Regulus/Kreacher :-) All quotes from UK editions It started with a line in GoF, after the graveyard scene, that has always intrigued me, but I've never found a satisfactory relevance for: GoF ch 36 p613 (Harry says) "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy ?" Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge." So what was it about Lucius in particular that got the wind up Snape? Snape does not jump at Harry claiming he can name people. It is after Harry names Lucius that the reaction comes. Well now I think I might have an explanation. We know that Voldemort gave Lucius the Diary before the GH incident, how long before we are not sure. As far as I can remember there is no canon evidence directly supporting a friendship/relationship between Lucius and Snape, but Snape's immediate acceptance and favouritism towards Draco, and the fact that they were both DEs together would imply some sort of connection. Lucius has been instructed by Voldemort to keep the diary and plant it at Hogwarts when instructed. Possibly by this time Snape has been instructed by Voldemort to get the DADA job (which he fails to get but overhears the prophecy instead). If this is so, then isn't it quite possible that Lucius would have a little chat with Snape about Hogwarts? This depends on the timeline stuff, which my mind has refused to boggle over, so help me out here, please. Anyway, let's say that Snape gets to know about the diary, and, in order for the Snape/Regulus scenario to work, gets access to the diary on his own. Something I think Snape would be quite capable of doing. If you're on the Guilty!Lucius track, then no need to involve Snape. Ok, now to examine the diary. We have a seemingly blank book. Now where have we seen blank bits of parchment that aren't blank at all? Ones that reveal their secrets at the behest of a password or phrase. An awful lot of ink came out of the diary when it was destroyed. COS ch17 p237 "Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming over Harry's hands, flooding the floor Silence except for the steady drip drip of ink still oozing from the diary" I have always wondered why so much ink came out, when the diary appeared to be blank. Yes it could have been all of Harry/Ginny's writing and Riddles replies, but there is a possibility that it also contained a written version of Tom Riddle's proof of why he is the Heir of Slytherin. DD says to Harry in the Horcruxes chapter, HBP Ch23 p468 "But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be unleashed again." "Well he didn't want his hard work to be wasted," said Harry. "He wanted people to know he was Slytherin's heir, because he couldn't take credit at the time." "Quite correct," said DD nodding." Then on p472 DD says "The diary, as you have said yourself, was proof that he was the heir of Slytherin; I am sure that Voldemort considered it of stupendous importance." In COS what Harry says is ch18 p242 "It was this diary, Riddle wrote it when he was 16." HBP p467 DD says to Harry "The diary, Riddles's diary, the one giving instructions on how to reopen the Chamber of Secrets" What's puzzling me here, is that if Voldemort wanted the diary to be read, why were the words not visible?. What does DD mean here? It makes no sense for DD to, in one breath say the diary was to be read, and in the next phrase imply that it's purpose was for possession ? as a weapon. Many of the references hear, imply words to be read. I must admit to being confused about this vital bit of evidence for my theory. Herein, right at the heart of the theory, obviously lies one of the gaping holes mentioned above! But is there enough ambiguity to make a case? However, from COS, we know that Ginny suffered because she *wrote* in the diary and it replied to her. That gradually over the course of time, Voldemort was able to possess Ginny because of her confiding in him. Ginny was relating to the Soul fragment, rather than reading the diary. Let's for argument's sake, say that Snape/Lucius did not write in the diary, but were able to read it, what would they have found out. Lucius/Snape works out how to read the diary, possibly by discovering the incantation that reveals the words (well if you think it's unlikely, the twins did it for the map). Or maybe at that time the words are there for all to read, and in order for Lucius to work his plan, he hides them (unlikely I think, but if it was Lucius, he had an object belonging to what he thought was a gone-for- ever Voldemort which he thought he could use to further his own ends, he might have done it) Whatever the scenario, on reading the diary, what does Lucius/Snape find out? I think it would be in character for Voldemort, as part of his proof that he is the heir, to put in the whole history of his extraordinary powers, which would of course include his little trip to the cave with Benson and Bishop. How at such a young age, he was so fantastically powerful, that he could manage to get himself and two children down an impossibly steep cliff and into a hidden cave etc etc. He probably didn't give a grid reference for the cave, but might have hinted that it was on a holiday ? the evidence that DD had. So now, possibly, we have information about the cave accessible to others. Neither Snape nor Lucius it seems, suspected that the diary itself was a Horcrux. According to DD, "I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen, because it was cleverly enchanted." I suspect that the "I understand" implies that this information came from Snape, which if correct, is proof that Snape knew more about the diary than just that when it had been destroyed Voldemort was apoplectic. What is also Very Interesting is that Snape is *not* present at the denouement of COS, only DD, McGonegall and the Weasley family are there. (see the start of ch18) which means he was not party to any information which might have led him to realise that it was a Horcrux. DD probably told McGonegall to keep her mouth shut, and the Weasly's wouldn't talk to Snape, and neither would they want to broadcast Ginny's error. This may well lead somewhere, but I have no time to investigate that at the moment. If we take the line in GoF, much quoted recently, that implies that the death eaters knew about Voldemort making at least one Horcrux, we have a reason for an ESG!Snape, whose remorse knows no end, to hunt for the cave and a Horcrux. But beware, for if our gallant ESG! Snape is the one to destroy the Locket, he very quickly becomes ESE! Snape for accidentally forgetting to let DD in on the loop. And would this not make Snape blanch at the thought that his whole cover might be blown by dear Lucius somehow, when he shows up at the rebirthing party. Did Harry witness anything to connect Snape to Lucius, the Diary and hence the Cave and the Fake Locket lying where the Horcrux once was? Or do we have a careless Lucius who somehow lets RAB in on the loop. Because in order for the Lucius outline to work, we have to get Regulus on board and knowing about the cave. Yes, it's possible, they are closely related. If we have a Regulus who wants out, who uncharacteristically for a Slytherin, is concerned about others (is this the good Slytherin which the list has hunted for, and JKR has hinted exists :-) ) knows that Voldemort has made a horcrux and decides to take this opportunity to take it out, then the Lucius case can continue. And all the convoluted problems of the cave still lie before us. Let's say it is OFH!ESE!Snape, who has a problem with Voldemort because of the prophecy, and a possible problem with DD over how he dealt with the Marauder's "joke" or perhaps, as I've suggested before Snape just wants a place to research the dark arts to his heart's content, and DD has denied it to him. Who know's why Snape might hate DD, but that it's possible has been revealed by the Lightening Struck Tower. He now needs a fall guy to take the punishment that is obviously waiting in the cave, between him and the Horcrux. And there is poor old Regulus, wanting out, gullible enough to believe Snape's tale of how he can earn himself redemption, by helping him with a little project. I can believe that Snape was a great enough wizard to find his way round the defences, and that Regulus, did not have enough magical oomph to sink the boat. But the complexities of the cave still lie before us, and Saraquel, who has spent a long time constructing this, really, really does need to go and attend to Real Life, as she has been trying to do for 2 days now. So I will leave it to you, to follow through on this, if you think it worth it. To ponder, what went through Snape's mind when DD came back having destroyed the Ring ? did Snape suspect another Horcrux? What is the story of the potion in this instance. Are they Snape's memories in the potion? If so, how did they get there? Do we assume that our devious Snape forced Regulus to put his initials on the note to disguise his own involvement and throw the blame on Regulus. Was it Regulus that drank the potion, and if that didn't kill him, did Snape simply get rid of the evidence as the note suggested. Poor, Regulus, if this was so, he knew he was writing the truth when he wrote "I know I will be dead long before you read this". And if Snape is the guilty party, where is the Locket now? It would make little sense to point the finger at Regulus, and then hide it in Grimauld place. Questions, questions, questions. Well, I never promised answers to everything, just a vaguely plausible explanation for how someone could know about the cave. What do you think? Saraquel Who may not have time to answer replies, and apologises in advance! From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 07:34:07 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:34:07 -0000 Subject: Several replies and answers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138172 Fabian: The secret is probably not a secret anymore. The thing is, if Dumbledore can be the secret keeper of 12 GP, why couldn't James or Lily, or even Harry for that matter be the secret keeper of Godric's Hollow? It's not really consistent. Valky: I think it is. Dumbledore is not hiding himself in Grimmauld place, he hides the Headquarters of the OOtP. He is the leader of the OOtP, a separate entity from the Headquarters. James Lily and Harry were the entities being hidden by the SK charm. If it was written down in a note the note would say "James, Lily and Harry Potter are at - ## abcdefg street Godrics Hollow" and I think that while you are the secret you cannot be the secret keeper. Making it reasonably consistent in its inner workings. Valky asked: >Could a curious Reg skip the ring and go straight to the cave? How? Eileen: I have a suggestion. Unless the cave is a popular holiday spot, Voldie couldn't rely on thirsty passing tourists to provide his Horcrux-protecting Inferi supply. If its an of-the-way place, its probably doubling as a parking lot for Inferi in between assignments - where better as cold storage to conceal a whole army of them? But for that kind of operation he would need a reliable parking attendant - who better than that new kid, Reg, fresh out of school? Valky now: I didn't think of that, what an excellent suggestion. It doesn't even matter to me if this answers the question of how Reggie might have known of the cave, it could, it's wildy speculative without canon, but it opens an avenue in this mystery that I hadn't explored and thats always good in my book ;D I *would* like to know where the Inferi came from. I thought Voldie might have pilfered the bodies from an old shipwreck in the rocks at that bay, or as Eileen suggests he might have been gathering the horde over time during his VWI. One answer to that might be speculating on *what* exactly it was down in that cave that young Tom used to scare Amy Benson and the other orphans. Was it Inferi? Oh and another thought, Inferi were used in VWI, could they have been summoned from the cave itself, is that a way that a DE could know that they were otherwise guarding something in the cave? That could be useful in my DE!R.A.B. argument. hmmm Carol: I just realized that Crouch!Moody is not the teacher Dumbledore hired, which may be the way around that apparent exception to the rule. Clearly the real Moody's fall (being placed in his own trunk as the result of his paranoia backfiring) is to Voldemort's advantage, as is having Crouch!Moody in his place. I suppose Voldemort didn't care that Crouch!Moody would be revealed and destroyed by the DADA curse. He intended simply to use him and discard him. His advantage occurred through the curse falling on the real Alastor Moody. (Obviously the explanation isn't perfect and some examples work better than others, but I think the general pattern of the DADA curse working the will of Voldemort is clear, and he cares no more about his supporters than his enemies once they've worked his will.) Valky now: Oh yeah Carol, I think you're right. And this could definitely fit in the framework of the DADA curse targets DD hypothesis. If, as I assumed DD was applying his massive brainpower each year to hiring someone that he deduced would minimise the effect of the curse on his students while he dealt with the brunt of it, then hiring Moody fits fairly well into that mould. Moody is strange enough and he could almost certainly, just by being himself, make DD look bad, but maybe the curse didn't agree with that and thought Moody would actually made an excellent DADA professor, hence it takes Moody out of the equation before he even gets there and replaces him with the agent itself. Wow that works for me. The Dark Mark stays central as the agent, and it fits as a dark side of Moody, who's dark side is is absolute loathing of the Death Eaters and Voldemort and anything associated with them - the curse just doesn't think this dark side is to any advantage at all in Moody, but it can bring this Dark Side to Hogwarts if DD gives it the nod. Yeah I like it Carol. Awesome job! Valky earlier: > So what then when it comes time for Harry's sixth year DADA teacher? > Why would he [Dumbledore?] choose Snape ? If Dumbledore has trusted Severus all these years, then why? Snape has always been > available for the DADA job, which would imply, if we assume the above, that Snape was always capable of removing DD from the Headmasters role, someway. I have really talked my way into a corner here, Carol responds: I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think you're asking why DD would offer Snape the position when he knew full well who had placed the curse and the dangers it would pose to his most trusted and most able helper, Severus Snape. (If that's not what you mean, please repose the question and I'll try again.) Valky now: Ok I'll repose, 'cause that's not it. What I am saying is, why did Dumbledore trust Snape if Snape was *always available* for the DADA job? Once I call the Hypothesis that the DADA curse is *on Dumbledore* /True/, then anyone available to the job, is also a curse on Dumbledore. Sevvie is always available hence he is, every year as far as Voldies curse is concerned, bad news for Dumbledore. Thats where my theory lead me, and all it does is lead to yet another dead end in the maze of Snape and DD. :( Carol: But maybe, just maybe, Voldemort has made a grave error in judgment and the curse he placed on the DADA position so many years before will rebound on him like the AK he cast on Harry at Godric's Hollow. "Oft evil will evil mars." (Oops. Wrong book.) Valky now: Ooh I like where this is going Carol. I will definitely be thinking about this one. :D Gopal: I know there is a lot of fan-fiction out there, but some basic contradictions with the canon that I perceived regarding 'refilling pensieve theory'. 1) At no point in canon has anyone had to *drink* a memory. They just touch it to enter the memory. Valky now: Yes, that's true. So I don't think that anyone seriously postulating memories inside the basin could make a good argument to DD simply seeing someones memories based on pensieve canon. OTOH I believe that there is a good argument for the notion that DD is *reliving* someones memories while drinking the potion. The fact that we haven't seen memories drunk by anyone, does not preclude that they *could be* drunk by someone. Sluggy and DD keep memories inside bottles, so there is a possibility that perhaps drinking them is the way to put them back into your head. Sliding them into your ear canal, I think, might actually be too fiddly to work. Gopal: 2) The liquid was not refilling itself, because after 13 goblets Harry/DD were able to retrieve the locket. Only magically generated water was getting drained out. Valky now: Agreed, but that again doesn't establish that the basin won't reset itself if it is tricked up like the Triwizard cup was. I also put to you the argument that the protection is designed in such a way that the drinker dies there on the island. If DD is right the LV would keep the drinker alive long enough to extract information from him then the information is extracted while the potion is being drunk, not after. This information is stored somewhere. A Logical answer is that the basin stores it like a pensieve. Gopal: 3) Voldemort acts alone, he is unlikely to have let any DE to place the horcrux in the cave. Come to think of it, he may be thinking that only 3 people (himself, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop) know about the cave at all. Valky now: Look at the posts above, Eileen and I speculate on the cave a bit there. the real answer is we have no clues about this, at least not ones that we have found AFAIK. Gopal: 4) DD recognizes LV's style of magic. Valky now: Yes, which is why I think he probably figured out what was in the potion and how he could defend himself to his purposes while drinking it. In which case, it's not ridiculous to imagine that DD's reaction to the potion was not something he couldn't protect himself against but something he needed to *show* Harry. Gopal: Some q's about the canon. Please let me know if you have answers for the same. a) In the cave, DD/ Harry could not get their hands close to the liquid due to an invisible barrier. Why did the goblet not face such resistance? Valky now: This is good canon to support that the potion did legilimency on the drinker. If they got that far then they *must* drink, if Voldie *wants* them to drink, it means he's getting something out of them drinking. I reiterate DD tells Harry that Voldie would want information at this point, so put two and two together and its easy. Voldemort invites drinking because it gets him the information he needs. This trails us back to the basin being a pensieve, Voldie himself probably wouldn't have to drink, if this was his pensieve then he could just swirl his finger about and see what was in there like DD does with his pensieve. Sorry I can't really give substantial answers to your other questions Gopal. Phew.. This post took a while.. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory. From juli17 at aol.com Sat Aug 20 07:58:45 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:58:45 EDT Subject: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore? Message-ID: <203.82f891b.30383cb5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138173 Julie wrote earlier: > 1. Simply because Snape spoke the AK does not mean that is > the spell he actually cast. We know there are nonverbal spells, > and we have no definite canon prohibiting speaking one spell > while actually casting another. So he may not have cast an > AK at all. Marianne: But, do we have definite canon that permits speaking one spell while casting another? I'm not being argumentative here, I don't recall that we do. Julie now: You're right. We don't have definite canon either way. At the moment we simply don't know if you can cast one spell while speaking another. The best we can say is, it's possible. Julie earlier: > 2. While an Unforgivable spell is said to leave a stain on the soul, > we don't know for sure whether this is true of Snape, even if he > did cast (or attempt to cast) an AK. The Aurors were allowed to > cast Unforgivables in the last war when absolutely necessary, > and presumably these didn't irrevocably stain their souls if their > intent in casting the spell was not an evil one but served some > higher or necessary purpose (like self-defense). If Snape cast > the AK at Dumbledore's request and/or as a sort of mercy killing > that also aided his crucial undercover role as a spy (which > necessitated the spell be an Unforgivable rather than a lesser > spell), then would his soul still be stained? > > And if he cast an AK, but it was an incomplete one because > he lacked the evil intent to kill Dumbledore, yet it was still enough > to kill Dumbledore in his weakened state (perhaps from the fall > itself rather than the AK), would his soul still be stained? Marianne: I think this point is the best one for looking at the gray areas of intent and just what happens to the casters of Unforgivables. In GOF we were told that the Aurors were given new powers to use Unforgivables. Not when "absolutely necessary", but whenever. Which to me says that, if an innocent person was killed in the accidental belief that that person was a DE, well, then, too bad. No harm done. And that is a dangerous path to follow. My reading of the permission to use these curses was that it was an indication that the "good" side was now on the slippery slope to acting very much like the people they were fighting. And, that once being permitted to use them, it could become easier and easier to do. Why bother trying to capture anyone? Just kill them and be done with it. After all, they're all horrible people. Although, with that attitude it becomes harder to identify people, like Regulus, who may be searching for a way out, who may be able to pass on additional information, etc. But, with this "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality that might have developed, as least among some Aurors, everyone on Voldemort's side is equally evil and equally derserving of death. As for Snape's possibly weakened AK, yes, if his actions killed Dumbledore, then I think his soul pays a price. Is he ESE? I tend to think not - I'm one of those who thinks Snape is out for his own skin first, and consequently does good things for DD's side, and questionable things. Someone else asked on this or a related thread if people would declare Harry ESE if he murdered Voldemort. If that's how it plays out, that Harry *kills* Voldemort, and doesn't *defeat* or *vanquish* him in some non-lethal way, then yes, I think Harry's soul is tarnished by that. It doesn't, however, make him ESE! Julie now: Hmm. I don't know if I agree that one's soul is tarnished. But I do believe that you can't take someone else's life and not be affected by that, even if it's in war/self-defense. It has take something from you, or leave a permanent weight on you. But I think that's imposed by your own conscience, not by any outside force (kind of how soul-tarnishing sounds to me). Julie earlier: > 3. Murder is killing with malicious intent. If Snape killed Dumbledore > knowing that he was already dying, with the intent being to end > DD's suffering and grant Dumbledore's own wish to make his death > meaningful in the war against Voldemort (and perhaps to keep > Dumbledore from turning into an Inferi if that is a consequence of > his death by the potion), is that murder? Or is it mercy killing, even > a sort of assisted suicide? (I realized assisted suicide is a touchy > subject, but again I predicate this on DD already being terminally > ill with little or no time left.) Marianne: Well, it's certainly more convenient for explaining away Snape's actions if we assume DD was moments from death ;-). Just shove the old man off a tower so he dies from the shattering impact with the ground. Maybe we're into Wizard world legalities, which have always been murky to me. If Snape's actions are not murder, assuming his intent was indeed to end DD's suffering while simultaneously handling the explosvie situation with the assembled DEs on the tower, they would certainly at least be manslaughter here in the US. The Wizard World doesn't seem to allow for degrees of ending a life, so we don't know if a mercy killing is acceptable or not, whether it involves slipping someone a potion or pushing them off a high elevation. Julie now: It is convenient to say DD was moments from death, but it also appears that way in canon. At the very least, he's becoming progressively weaker. It's unclear if he can be saved, since we have few facts as usual! (Did he originally call for Snape so Snape could counter the potion's effects? Will those effects wear off, or will they eventually kill him? Is it already too late?) You're also right that we don't know how "mercy killing" is viewed in the WW. Snape may still be guilty of some sort of manslaughter even if he killed an already dying DD. But Snape's already carrying plenty of guilt, so what's a bit more. Snape, and DD, may be willing to bear that guilt if Snape's action provides a means to save the WW from Voldemort. Julie earlier: > 4. If DD asked Snape to deliver the final killing blow, does this > mean the same thing as asking Snape to commit murder, i.e., > to stain or split his soul? I don't think it has to mean that. If > it isn't murder, i.e., killing with malicious intent, but is some > combination of mercy killing/releasing DD's soul before it can > become an Inferi, then it isn't actually murder, and DD is not > endangering Snape's soul. (And I agree that DD would not > ask Snape to do something that would endanger his soul). Marianne: If this situation comes to be resolved exactly as you've postulated, there will still be debate on whether or not it's murder. In JKR's world it might not be, but I suspect many readers would still find Snape's actions to be the equivalent of murder, just as many people do not accept the idea of assisted suicide because it involves the taking of a life, or it allows people to play God. I'd like to add a question of my own here. The question of intent has come up periodically. Some of the Snape defenders have argued that his intent was not to kill DD, but to end DD's suffering, and thus protect Draco and himself from the consequences of the UV. If we non-Snape lovers are asked to, if not forgive Snape's actions, then to at least understand them, can we Sirius lovers ask the same in return? If it is revealed that Sirius' intent in sending Snape into the tunnel duing the Prank was merely to scare the pants off him, then we really can't accuse him of attempted murder, now, can we? Julie says now: I've never thought Sirius was guilty of attempted murder, just of recklessness and lack of forethought. But then, I don't think he had any intent kill Snape, or even put enough thought into it to consider all the possible consequences. And if Snape didn't want to kill DD, and did it because it served a higher purpose to kill a man who was already dying in a manner of that man's choosing, then I can see that as extenuating circumstances which would allow me to understand the necessity of Snape's actions and to forgive him. (Should this be the case, the most interesting part will be seeing if Harry comes to that same conclusion!) But that's just me. I have no doubt you're right about a continuing debate on Snape's guilt. I've always felt JKR's frequent statement that she's writing the Harry Potter saga for herself, not for children or to conform to anyone else's views, is her way of defending herself and her right to portray her fictional WW in whatever moral light she sees fit. And it is a fictional world, so I for one can accept whichever way she decides to come down on the murder/not murder issue with Snape, even if I don't end up liking it ;-) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Sat Aug 20 07:59:43 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:59:43 EDT Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) Message-ID: <1c5.2e715d1b.30383cef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138174 juli17 at a... wrote: > I am still convinced that we really > do not know if Snape murdered Dumbledore. Eggplant replied: If you were a novelist and you wanted one of your characters to get murdered what more could you have done than what JKR did in HBP to convince readers that the character has indeed been murdered? Julie now: Matt touched on the main points. Speaking specifically of JKR and HBP, if she wanted it to be perfectly clear that Snape murdered DD and was undeniably evil, she would have written the scene that way. I.e., Dumbledore wouldn't have begged Snape, he would have spoken his disappointment. Snape would have taken the opportunity to gloat (one of his favorite pastimes) along the lines of "You pathetic old man, you made it so easy for me...etc." Snape would have AKed DD with no hesitation, with a flourish no doubt. Snape would never have let the opportunity to torture Harry with a crucio or two pass, let alone stop another DE from doing it. Snape would have really taunted Harry, not with semi-lessons included, but in full nasty mode. Snape would have incapacitated Harry after a fulfilling bit of torture and taken him to Voldemort--or at least attempted to do so. For good measure, Snape would have thrown a few nasty spells around at the likes of Hermoine, Luna, and Flitwick. And he wouldn't have just slunk out of Hogwarts, he would have left some serious destruction behind. Oh, and finally, when Harry found DD at the bottom of the Tower his eyes would be open with an expression of horror--as if he'd been struck by a true AK. That's how JKR could have written it if she wanted to leave NO doubts about Snape's loyalties, and wanted us to know in every sense that Snape murdered DD. But she didn't. She very *deliberately* planted doubts by having Snape and DD behave uncharacteristically and inconsistently. In Book 7, JKR will have to explain those inconsistencies. She may well explain them in a way that reveals an ESE!Snape, or she may explain them in a way that reveals a DumbledoresMan!Snape, or even an OutforHimself!Snape. But until we get the explanation--the reasons behind those deliberate inconsistencies--then any of the three Snapes is a possible outcome. Can I also add that no one who supports any of the three Snapes (or another version not listed above) is stupid, deluded, or misreading canon. We are each simply using the few facts available to formulate the theory we think best fits the story, and--let's be VERY honest here--the theory that supports the Snape we most *want* to see revealed. So, I want DumbledoresMan!Snape, Eggplant wants ESE!Snape, Lupinlore wants OutforHimself!Snape, etc. The only important question, which won't be answered until Book 7, is which Snape does JKR want? Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 08:09:24 2005 From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:09:24 -0000 Subject: Occlumency, Snape, Harry's House, and Absolutes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138175 Rather than reply to several posts, I am going to address a couple of things. 1. Occlumency: It is my understanding that Occlumency, with the exception of Harry and Voldy, that the Occlumens and the Legilimens must be occupying similar space for it to be effective. Therefore, whether the rest of the Order knew that Snape was or was not on their side, Voldy would not know via Legilimency unless he was in the same room, specifically addressing the Order member in question. The Harry-Voldy connection being, of course, a result of the failed AK. But we all knew that. If it were the same way with everyone, then Snape could have Legilimensed Harry from whereever he wanted. Onthe same subject, I've been relistening to OotP and I believe that Harry never had to say "He's got Padfoot", because Snape is a good Leglimens and Harry sucks at Occlumency. Just my opinion, naturally. 2. Snape: When I first read HBP, I felt like Snape had betrayed everyone. He was lower than the lowest lifeform I could think of. Then I read several posts on HPFGU and considered the BIG picture. I am in the Snape-isn't-quite-as-bad-as-it-appears group. I feel the hatred, etc etched on his face was replusion toward what he knew he had to do. Dumbledore wasn't begging for his life, he was reminding Snape that he had an obligation to the BIGGER picture. It is also my opinon that Snape was protecting Harry as Snape was fleeing. He was giving him advice on how to best fight Voldy and the DEs. Snape's offense at Harry's coward comments, I believe, was not toward being called a coward because he was fleeing and he had just "murdered" Dumbledore, but because only he knew of the magnitude of his actions and how they affect the bigger picture. I feel kinda bad for dear Snapey. He's in an aboslutely crap position. Unless, of course, he is ESE, but I choose not to believe that. 3. Harry's House: Perhaps he would have excelled in Slytherin, but when he uses Sectumsempra against Malfoy, it is incredibly plain why he is NOT in Slytherin. Unlike the things that other SLytherins had done to other people, Harry was "horrified" by what he had done. He implies that he would never had used the curse if he knew what it did. That speaks volumes about where he does or does not belong. 4. Absolutes: After being an active poster when I first joined this group almost 4 years ago, being a lurker for about 3 years, and actively reading now that HBP has come out, I have found that the one thing that annoys me the most is that people try to deal in absolutes. We cannot know EXACTLY what Jo means when she does this, that or the other. Yes, she clarifies (or not) in interviews and we have what she has written in the books, but who are we to say "she WILL do this" or "she WON'T do that"? The are no absolutes, save for what she has given us in her books and her interviews. She has left an ENORMOUS amount for us to ponder and theorize about until the next (sigh ... last) book comes out, but is Dumbledore dead? We can only speculate. Much of the evidence points to yes, but some of it points to perhaps not. Is RAB Regulus? Many people think it is, but we get the 7th book in our grubby little hands. Could Malfoy have really gone through with it? I don't think so ... I think he's just a scared little boy. Dealing in absolutes is dangerous when 19,000 people with differing opinions are involved. There are few absolutes in this series, we should have all learned that by now! I mean no offense to members of the list ... And on a mildy related note, does anyone know if Jim Dale did the Audio CD version of HBP? I LOVE him doing the rest of them and would be delighted to find out I can have him read me HBP as well! Oh, and I think the title of the 7th book should be "Harry Potter and How Voldemort Got His *ss Handed To Him By a 17 Year Old Wizard That He Couldn't Kill As a Baby". Maybe that's too long and Ms. GrandPre would have trouble drawing Harry and Voldy in such a situation! May your days be filled with challenging thoughts ... Michelle :) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Aug 20 09:15:37 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 05:15:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An almost plausible explanation for how the cave was found. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C7737EDCE46888-BE4-9E6D@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138176 -----Original Message----- From: saraquel_omphale To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:51:39 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An almost plausible explanation for how the cave was found. Saraquel: At last, I think I've come up with something almost plausible for how someone found the cave. It's still got gaping holes, but I think it holds together as well as the other theories currently available and I have found some canon support for it. I said I'd be willing to drop Transfigured!Horcrux for a plausible explanation :-) This theory could work for a Lucius/Regulus/Kreacher scenario. But the "great wizard" needed to penetrate the cave defences would have to be Kreacher IMO, with his elf "powerful brand of magic" (sorry can't give you chapter and verse on that quote ? can't remember where it comes in the books.) Cassie: The quote you are looking for is from GOF. (US Ed. pg 687) when Barty Crouch says "She [Winky] used her own brand of magic to bind me to her." at least, the phrase 'brand of magic' is there. Saraquel: GoF ch 36 p613 (Harry says) "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy ?" Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge." So what was it about Lucius in particular that got the wind up Snape? Snape does not jump at Harry claiming he can name people. It is after Harry names Lucius that the reaction comes. Well now I think I might have an explanation. We know that Voldemort gave Lucius the Diary before the GH incident, how long before we are not sure. As far as I can remember there is no canon evidence directly supporting a friendship/relationship between Lucius and Snape, but Snape's immediate acceptance and favouritism towards Draco, and the fact that they were both DEs together would imply some sort of connection. Cassie: Actually, there *is* cannon evidence for a relationship between Lucius and Snape. From OotP (US. pg. 521) Sirius speaking. "Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?" There is another quote in OotP that supports it as well: (US. pg. 745) Umbridge speaking: "I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you!" I think there is an interesting correlation between these quotes. It suggests that, no matter what you may think of their relationship, that there is a give and take aspect to it. I really do not think that Lucius would bother saying good things to the Ministry about Snape just in the spirit of friendship. I can't imagine him thinking "I'll give my old buddy Severus a plug here!". My theory is that he went to give Snape a good name in the Ministry under Voldemort's orders. It fits. The Ministry knew that Snape was/had been a DE. Lucius clearly has (or..had) influence in the Ministry. If he stood on Snape's side, it would be more likely that when Voldemort did make his presence known that Snape could remain on the 'good side'. Or, at least there is some reason Lucius would help Snape save face. And Sirius' comment suggests the two had a relationship before Voldemort fell. But I can't really say if they became "friends" before or after they knew each other as DEs. Saraquel: Ok, now to examine the diary. We have a seemingly blank book. Now where have we seen blank bits of parchment that aren't blank at all? Ones that reveal their secrets at the behest of a password or phrase. An awful lot of ink came out of the diary when it was destroyed. COS ch17 p237 "Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming over Harry's hands, flooding the floor Silence except for the steady drip drip of ink still oozing from the diary" I have always wondered why so much ink came out, when the diary appeared to be blank. Yes it could have been all of Harry/Ginny's writing and Riddles replies, but there is a possibility that it also contained a written version of Tom Riddle's proof of why he is the Heir of Slytherin. DD says to Harry in the Horcruxes chapter, HBP Ch23 p468 "But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be unleashed again." "Well he didn't want his hard work to be wasted," said Harry. "He wanted people to know he was Slytherin's heir, because he couldn't take credit at the time." "Quite correct," said DD nodding." Then on p472 DD says "The diary, as you have said yourself, was proof that he was the heir of Slytherin; I am sure that Voldemort considered it of stupendous importance." In COS what Harry says is ch18 p242 "It was this diary, Riddle wrote it when he was 16." HBP p467 DD says to Harry "The diary, Riddles's diary, the one giving instructions on how to reopen the Chamber of Secrets" What's puzzling me here, is that if Voldemort wanted the diary to be read, why were the words not visible?. What does DD mean here? It makes no sense for DD to, in one breath say the diary was to be read, and in the next phrase imply that it's purpose was for possession ? as a weapon. Many of the references hear, imply words to be read. I must admit to being confused about this vital bit of evidence for my theory. Herein, right at the heart of the theory, obviously lies one of the gaping holes mentioned above! But is there enough ambiguity to make a case? Cassie: Remember, the words may not have been written or stayed written, but they did appear. Someone would have to write in the diary for it (or Voldemort) to know someone was looking at it. I think DD's saying it was meant to be read and was used for possession makes perfect sense. Consider your next line: Saraquel: However, from COS, we know that Ginny suffered because she *wrote* in the diary and it replied to her. That gradually over the course of time, Voldemort was able to possess Ginny because of her confiding in him. Ginny was relating to the Soul fragment, rather than reading the diary. Cassie: you also bring up the quote: "I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen, because it was cleverly enchanted." from HBP later on. Now, Lucius knew the book would cause the CoS to reopen. I'm not sure if he knew how. He may have known the enchantment was a means to control someone to get them to 'do the dirty work' and open the chamber, or he may have just wanted a Weasley to be caught with a Dark object. The Diary had be to be read and written in for possession to be possible. Let's for argument's sake, say that Snape/Lucius did not write in the diary, but were able to read it, what would they have found out. Saraquel: Lucius/Snape works out how to read the diary, possibly by discovering the incantation that reveals the words (well if you think it's unlikely, the twins did it for the map). Or maybe at that time the words are there for all to read, and in order for Lucius to work his plan, he hides them (unlikely I think, but if it was Lucius, he had an object belonging to what he thought was a gone-for- ever Voldemort which he thought he could use to further his own ends, he might have done it) Whatever the scenario, on reading the diary, what does Lucius/Snape find out? I think it would be in character for Voldemort, as part of his proof that he is the heir, to put in the whole history of his extraordinary powers, which would of course include his little trip to the cave with Benson and Bishop. How at such a young age, he was so fantastically powerful, that he could manage to get himself and two children down an impossibly steep cliff and into a hidden cave etc etc. He probably didn't give a grid reference for the cave, but might have hinted that it was on a holiday ? the evidence that DD had. So now, possibly, we have information about the cave accessible to others. Cassie: I think you are making some pretty wide leaps here. One, showing someone how he navigated the cave would not prove he was the HoS. The measure of his power is no evidence for his ansestry. He would've found a more clever wayto present evidence. It was also said in HBP (can't remember where) that he researched his ansestry. Surely he would have found evidence to connect himselfto Salazar Slytherin. All he needed for that was proof he was the son of a Gaunt. Are you suggesting he wrote a kind of autobiography? Remember, the diary also enabled him to *show* people his memories. And he could also make what he wanted to say appear on the pages. Chances are he could also alter those memories (in a far better way than Slughorn did his) to leave out information he wanted to be kept secret. Remember also that Riddle's memory used Ginny's "life force" to make himself real. Here's where 'possesion as weapon' comes in. Since a Horcrux is used to keep LV alive, it would make sense to enchant the diary so that he could possess someone to the point where he could totally drain them of life. I do not think he would've done this if his present day self was still alive. I think it was a precautionary measure. So the reading of the diary was a means to open the Chamber of Secrets and prove he was Slytherin's heir and the possesion part was a means to strengthen the soul fragment in the horcrux and enable to take on a real form. What I'm wondering now is...if Riddle did return has his 16 year old self and PD!(present day)LV managed to return to his own body, what would have happened? Saraquel: Neither Snape nor Lucius it seems, suspected that the diary itself was a Horcrux. According to DD, "I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen, because it was cleverly enchanted." I suspect that the "I understand" implies that this information came from Snape, which if correct, is proof that Snape knew more about the diary than just that when it had been destroyed Voldemort was apoplectic. What is also Very Interesting is that Snape is *not* present at the denouement of COS, only DD, McGonegall and the Weasley family are there. (see the start of ch18) which means he was not party to any information which might have led him to realise that it was a Horcrux. DD probably told McGonegall to keep her mouth shut, and the Weasly's wouldn't talk to Snape, and neither would they want to broadcast Ginny's error. This may well lead somewhere, but I have no time to investigate that at the moment. Cassie: Just because we did not read about him being privy to any information about the diary does not mean Dumbledore didn't talk to him about it at a later time. No matter what he suspected about the diary, it seems reasonable that he would use Snape to get information out of Lucius and would have had to give Snape information on the diary. (further proof of a relationship. I don't think Lucius would just blab about it to anyone.) . Remember, "Dumbledore trusts Snape." Saraquel: If we take the line in GoF, much quoted recently, that implies that the death eaters knew about Voldemort making at least one Horcrux, we have a reason for an ESG!Snape, whose remorse knows no end, to hunt for the cave and a Horcrux. But beware, for if our gallant ESG! Snape is the one to destroy the Locket, he very quickly becomes ESE! Snape for accidentally forgetting to let DD in on the loop. And would this not make Snape blanch at the thought that his whole cover might be blown by dear Lucius somehow, when he shows up at the rebirthing party. Did Harry witness anything to connect Snape to Lucius, the Diary and hence the Cave and the Fake Locket lying where the Horcrux once was? Cassie: I do not think there is a connection between Snape and the fake locket and the cave. I really don't see it. Saraquel: If we have a Regulus who wants out, who uncharacteristically for a Slytherin, is concerned about others (is this the good Slytherin which the list has hunted for, and JKR has hinted exists :-) ) Cassie: Well...there is Slughorn. He may be overly ambitious and not think of other people's feelings at times, but he does seem to be one of the good guys. Saraquel: or perhaps, as I've suggested before Snape just wants a place to research the dark arts to his heart's content, and DD has denied it to him. Cassie: Ok. I don't know about this 'Dumbledore denying Snape the opportunity to research the dark arts' business. Snape could do what he pleases. But openly researching the dark arts would look bad since he had 'reformed'. Dumbledore did try to keep Snape away from the Dark Arts like he was trying to keep a former junkie away from cocaine, but that doesn't tell us what Snape managed to do on his own time. Saraquel: Who know's why Snape might hate DD, but that it's possible has been revealed by the Lightening Struck Tower. He now needs a fall guy to take the punishment that is obviously waiting in the cave, between him and the Horcrux. And there is poor old Regulus, wanting out, gullible enough to believe Snape's tale of how he can earn himself redemption, by helping him with a little project. I can believe that Snape was a great enough wizard to find his way round the defences, and that Regulus, did not have enough magical oomph to sink the boat. Cassie: It is possible that the characteristic Slytherin quest for ambition outweighs loyalty. The person who destroyed the Dark Lord would be seen as more powerful than he was. Snape could posess the kind of ambition that would lead to treachery. I still don't agree with your theory though. Sorry. Saraquel: Questions, questions, questions. Well, I never promised answers to everything, just a vaguely plausible explanation for how someone could know about the cave. What do you think? Cassie: My first question is: Why Snape? I think you are trying too hard to fit Snape into the equation. Are you suggesting that someone found out about the cave from the diary? Earlier you suggested that Lucius was able to get information from the diary, and the cave story was part of it. Wouldn't you think there would be a little note saying, "By the way...I'm a horcrux. Please don't let me be destroyed." ? Then again, DD did think LV was being careless with that particular Horcrux. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Click Here!">What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good. --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 20 10:15:57 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:15:57 -0400 Subject: Who taught DADA before Quirrell? Message-ID: <006901c5a570$28c4e640$79c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138177 Ersatz Harry >>So I see multiple possibilities here: (1) I simply missed something (this is probably the most likely); (2) JKR goofed a little bit in the writing of SS/PS; or (3) JKR did not really settle on the one DADA professor per year idea until *after* writing SS/PS. Am I missing any possibilities? Anyone have thoughts on the three above? CathyD now: I questioned this as well. Percy seems to know Professor Quirrell at the beginning feast of PS so obviously he has been there before. I think, JMO, that Quirrell taught for a year, then went off to Albania to get some first hand experience, found Vapormort, then came back to teach another year. Who the teacher was the year before Harry arrived at Hogwarts, we have never been told. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 20 10:33:10 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:33:10 -0400 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak Message-ID: <006d01c5a572$8fe743c0$79c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138178 Tiffany: >>Oh my. That makes me think. I wonder if Harry will be able to find his parents' home in Godrick hollow, or will he have to get the secret from Wormtail somehow? Maybe since Harry really isn't looking specifically for James or lily, he'll be able to find the place no problem though, because maybe the secret was where they were, not where the house was. Any guesses? CathyD: Hagrid was able to find the Potter's house in Godric's Hollow only very shortly after the attack. I'm quite certain he was not in on the secret. I think probably very few people knew, maybe nobody. Hagrid said he got Harry out before the Muggles started swarming around. Flitwick said: "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window." (POA 152 Can Ed). Sirius said: ".. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies -- I realized what Peter must have done." (POA 268) While the Fidelius Charm was in operation, the house could be seen but James and Lily and Harry could not. If the secret was just James, Lily and Harry though, would the protection be broken with Harry still alive? Only JKR knows for certain but somehow Hagrid and Sirius got in when they shouldn't normally have been able to. Just my opinion. Your milage may vary, as they say. My question about Harry going back to Goderic's Hollow is what does he expect to find? I would expect, that sometime in the course of nearly 16 years, the remains of the house would be buldozed down and something new built in its place. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Sat Aug 20 11:27:47 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:27:47 -0000 Subject: The Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "merpsiren" wrote: > > So, who enforces the vow? Who is to say you have met up to the terms? The theory I suggested a while back was that it's down to the other party to enforce the vow, to make the determination that the vow has not been completed, otherwise it would have to be some other worldly influence that makes the decision. Maybe they even sometimes go to arbitration at say the wizengamot. The other theory is that sometimes maybe these things shouldn't be looked at too closley :o) Mandy From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 12:37:32 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:37:32 -0000 Subject: Does Snape hate Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <20050810224837.47883.qmail@web60425.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138180 > > > Colebiancardi: > > > > I don't think Snape resented DD for that. As DD > > > > stated about Snape's meltdown at the end of PoA, he suffered > > > > a major disappointment. I think DD was just telling him he > > > > knows....and the fact is we had > > > > huge discussions around the *prank* that Sirius > > > > pulled on Snape and if there was more to it than we know > > > > about. > > > > > > Alla: > > > I think that Snape was VERY dissapointed that > > > Dumbledore did not support him > > > > > > > > > > Julia here: > > I absolutely don't agree with you. I just can't > > imagine that Snape > > could have hated DD. He might have been dissapointed > > at some point > > or feel very angry but I refuse to believe he > > developed such an > > intense negative feeling towards DD, the person, > > > > Larry > > I can't find it difficult to believe that at that moment > on the tower Snape was siezed by the only feeling that > seems to drive him, and he acted accordingly. > Valky approaches the fence, looks through at her old pals sitting by their raised flag through a gap in the posts. Her eyes sweep the scene gazing for a moment at Alla, she raises her arm and lifts herself up onto the fence, with a graceful leap she lands cleanly on the other side.... "Ahh feels familiar being here..." she says to the stunned and apalled faces around her. "What are you doing, Valky? Changed your mind again?" they say. Valky smiles.. "No, not really I just thought I'd try some method acting to get deeper into Snapes role, maybe understand him better....." she laughs, "Okay, you don't have to buy that, but heres the thing, you see, I'm with Alla and Larry on this one." "On my first read of HBP, I'll full admit, that the hatred and repulsion etched on his face *instantly* reminded me of this moment in POA. It was my first thought.. 'he never got over it then, even after finding out he was wrong..' Yeah I absolutely bought it. The canon is there. Alla and Larry are spot on, IMO." "I would go as far as to say we have this particular question 'Could he really *hate* the old man?' thrown fair in our faces all through the series and theres anvil sized canon in OOtP." "DD admits this very mistake and he is even seen apparently making it AGAIN, all in the same chapter. Oh yeah, its there. In Dumbledore's speech: first he says Sirius is too mature and wise to take Snapes goading to heart.. and hands up who thought he was right?... yeah I thought so. Alright, hands up who just *trusted* that he knew this... Yeah see most of us, No? We were just left with trusting him... But then he turns around and says 'Oh yes the Occlumency lessons, an old mans mistake, I thought that Snape could put aside his old resentments.. But NO he didn't." Valky looks around at Alla and smiles, "Still trust me..?" ;D and with that she hoists herself back to the other side of the fence.. for now.. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 13:21:38 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:21:38 -0000 Subject: Several replies and answers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > This is good canon to support that the potion did legilimency on the > drinker. If they got that far then they *must* drink, if Voldie > *wants* them to drink, it means he's getting something out of them > drinking. I reiterate DD tells Harry that Voldie would want > information at this point, so put two and two together and its easy. > Voldemort invites drinking because it gets him the information he needs. > This trails us back to the basin being a pensieve, Voldie himself > probably wouldn't have to drink, if this was his pensieve then he > could just swirl his finger about and see what was in there like DD > does with his pensieve. Thanky, Valky. I think you've answered my question in Post#138077. I couldn't figure out how Voldemort was going to "find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin." I had expected that some sort of alarm system would alert Voldemort, who would then apparate to the cave and take steps to protect his Horcrux. Arguing against that was DD's insistence that Voldemort does not know when one of his Horcruxes is destroyed. However, your idea of the basin doing legilimency on the drinker and storing the memories as a Pensieve makes much more sense. Since Voldmort made it necessary for the person who finished the potion to drink water from the lake before removing the locket, that meant that the Inferi would rise, pull the drinker into the lake and drown him. Not much point in interrogating a drowned body. But if the basin had acted like a Pensieve and had already extracted the methods and motives of the drinker, these would then be available to Voldemort whenever he decided to come by and visit the Horcrux hidden there. And, since Voldemort expected that any drinkers would never leave the cave alive, it would make sense for the basin to refill with potion and reset itself. Merrylinks From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Aug 20 03:38:28 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:38:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sleeping Snape Distrusted by all In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4306A5B4.9050206@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138182 potioncat wrote: >In the very first read, DD's request to Harry to go wake Snape >actually jumped out at me. After all the talk about leaving > Hogwarts secure, after 5 books of Snape lurking about the dark > halls in good times, I found it hard to believe Snape was in bed. > After some thought, I realise that Snape cannot be patrolling the > hall with Order members ...wait a minute, does LV know that Snape > is in the Order?... But I can't believe Snape would be in bed. Or > that DD would assume it. "Go get Snape" I could accept, but > go "wake" Snape seemed odd. Has anyone thought that Dumbledore's repeated requests to Harry to get Snape or wake Snape were an attempt to GET HARRY OUT OF THE WAY. Harry again and again refuses to do as Dumbledore asks, gets frozen and has to witness something Dumbledore might have known was going to happen. Now Harry is a loose canon, being as he witnessed something he likely had no understanding of and spouted it off to the rest of the Wizard World. However, what surprises me is that while noone would believe things Harry said before, the OotP is too quick to believe him this time. Even with Snape fleeing with the DEs with Malfoy, the only person not a DE to witness Snape killing Dumbledore was Harry. A kid. Seems too easy for people to believe Harry so quickly. LV knows Snape is in the Order. LV thinks Snape is HIS Spy. He is acting the double agent. But there's too many things that make me believe Snape is still Dumbledore's man. Dumbledore would never beg Snape not to kill him. He would sacrifice his life to save the others even if it's asking Snape to kill him to do it. Snape had no choice in the matter. Draco failed to carry out his mission. Snape had to carry it out for him or DIE die to the vow. Dumbledore would rather die himself at the hand of his own friend then allow that friend to die. Then of course Dumbledore would have died and the Malfoy family would have died after LV found out Draco (and Snape) failed.. and Snape would not be there to rush all the DEs out and many students might have died too. Jazmyn From ginny343 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 04:27:24 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:27:24 -0000 Subject: Snape, dark lord Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138183 I have a theory, but first a general comment about the book. I read a post recently where the person said they thought the most straightforward idea was probably the correct one. It feels to me like the past couple books have missed that shocking twist that came at the end of the first 4 books (I especially liked the twists in books 1 and 3). I didn't expect Sirius to die like he did in Oop, but it wasn't so much a "twist" on what was expected. In HBP, I felt like Dumbledore's injured hand was obvious foreshadowing for his death, and I read the book expecting him to die. Although, not as he did. Snape's aparent betrayal was a shocker. I am really hoping to find digging between the lines was worthwhile because if it turns out Dumbledore is just dead and Snape was always evil and DD was wrong about him, I think it will be a little disappointing. So, even though I would like to see Snape as part of a plan for the good guys, I am going to suggest the complete opposite. I have not read a post suggesting this, but I might have missed it. I am not seriously invested in this theory, just some ideas. What if Snape's ambition is to become the new dark lord? What if he was playing both DD and Voldy? He wants Harry to stay alive because he believes Harry will eventually kill Voldy. He was okay with killing DD because now there is one of the world's strongest wizards out of the way. Snape might really be the WW's best at occlumency. He could give that credit to Voldy, but still be the best. Then we see before he leaves the grounds (after killing DD) that he is able to deflect all of Harry's spells like they are nothing. His potion adjustments (and the extra spells) show he is very knowledgable. Which brings me to another thing. Several people have suggested that Snape loved Lily and was sad she died. I know Voldy said she didn't have to die, but I don't think Snape loved her. I bet he was furious that a "mudblood" was getting so much attention at potion making! If Slughorn commented half as much when Lily and Snape were in class as he did in Harry's class about Lily's talent, Snape must have been very upset that he himself was not getting that attention when he clearly had a lot of talent. Furthermore, maybe Snape hated that DD was always taking such care of Harry. I think in Ch. 2 off HBP he even calls Harry "DD's favorite student" (I lent my copy of my book, so correct me if I'm wrong). That for sure must have brought about anti-Dumbledore feelings within him. Anyway, it is been a long day for me. I better stop. Ginny From bdasl at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 05:43:43 2005 From: bdasl at yahoo.com (bdasl) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 05:43:43 -0000 Subject: Who taught DADA before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138184 Ersatz Harry wrote: >...I found myself wondering about this today and went back to SS/PS > to see if Quirrell's predecessor was mentioned. No such professor > was named as far as I could find in a quick pass through the book. > In fact, there were a couple of things that made me think that > Quirrell had in fact been the DADA professor the year before Harry > starts. For one, Harry meets Quirrell before school actually > starts (on the way to Diagon Alley with Hagrid to pick up his > school things), and Quirrell says nothing about teaching DADA for > the first time, only that he teaches it. For two, Dumbledore > makes no mention of new professors at the welcoming feast that > year (as he does in some of the other books). > So I see multiple possibilities here: > (1) I simply missed something (this is probably the most likely); > (2) JKR goofed a little bit in the writing of SS/PS; or > (3) JKR did not really settle on the one DADA professor per year > idea until *after* writing SS/PS. > Am I missing any possibilities? Well actually I think it could conceiveably be a combination of 1 and 3? We are told that Quirrell goes off to Albania for a sabbatical. I always figured he was there two years ago (Fred & George's first year) took a year's sabbatical (previous year to Harry's first year) and then comes back somehow with Vapormort in tow over the summer before Harry's start of term. Hagrid mentions he hasn't been the same since coming back. Given that he has a VERY big secret he is hiding the stutter might not have always been a fake. This would still fit into the one year DADA teacher rule technically since Quirrell didn't stay two years in a row with this concept. I should note that 'The Lexicon' has (for what I am sure are to their eye legitimate reasons) said that Rowling was wrong if you read their timeline on Hogwarts. This version though would cover even the question of 'no new-professor introduction' since all but the 2nd year students of those returning would already know Quirrell. Given how many years have transpired since the request by Riddle/Voldemort to Dumbledore that he be allowed to teach DADA I wonder if JKR didn't back herself into a corner thinking this way but she's the author! :) Doesn't it seem just the least bit unbelieveable that nobody else would be noticing over 25 years of single year professors on a subject all students must take until O.W.L. level? Anyway hopefully that would address your questions (and sort of supported by canon although I didn't quote directly ) bdasl From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Sat Aug 20 08:14:11 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:14:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4306E653.4030704@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138185 Fabian previously: > The secret is probably not a secret anymore. The thing is, if > Dumbledore can be the secret keeper of 12 GP, why couldn't James > or Lily, or even Harry for that matter be the secret keeper of > Godric's Hollow? It's not reallyconsistent. Tiffany: > Oh my. That makes me think. I wonder if Harry will be able to find > his parents' home in Godrick hollow, or will he have to get the > secret from Wormtail somehow? Maybe since Harry really isn't > looking specifically for James or lily, he'll be able to find the > place no problem though, because maybe the secret was where they > were, not where the house was. Any guesses? Fabian: If the secret was where they were, they would have to communicate this to Wormtail every time they went out, it seems a bit inconvenient. I think, Harry will find the place because the magic 'wore off' or something, but you're probably right since he hasn't been told by Wormtail himself, he should not be able to. a_svirn wrote: > Maybe because they weren't secret keepers in the first place? > Wormtail was the keeper and as soon as he betrayed their secret it > naturally ceased being one. Simple as that. Fabian: I'm not sure I follow, they weren't the secret keepers in the book, but what if they were? Wouldn't that have been a much better situation than having to trust someone else? /Fabian From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Aug 20 13:37:54 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:37:54 -0000 Subject: Narcissa (was Re: Snape: the Riddle... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138186 Merrylinks wrote: > Yes. There is more to Narcissa than meets the eye. In GOF she appears > in the Top Box "wearing a look that suggested there was a nasty smell > under her nose." That attitude is completely diguised at Spinner's > End. Potioncat: That was sort of what we'd expect from Draco's mother isn't it? But I wonder why she had that look about her? Is that her usual look or was something...or someone... bothering her? It could have been any number of things. And at Spinner's End, how much of that emotion was spontaneous and how much was acting? Although I believe she was genuinely worried and frightened for her son. >Merrylinks: > When Bella and Narcissa apparate near Spinner's End, Cissy appears > with a very faint pop, and Bella materializes with a louder pop. This > suggests that Cissy is the more able witch. We know from the battle > in the Ministry of Magic that Bellatrix is extremely skilled. If > Cissy is even better, that is quite impressive. Potioncat: Later in HBP Snape will say to Draco that Aunt Bella must be teaching him Occlumency. Draco says nothing and I wondered if it was Narcissa who was teaching him. I'm sure Snape is using Legilimency on Narcissa in Spinner's End, but was she using Occlumency right back at him? Just enough to hide a zigger of a clause in the UV? > > In GOF, when the reborn LV summons the Death Eaters to his side, > Lucius Malfoy has a place in the circle but Narcissa does not. (In > the circle, Wormtail is on Lucius's left and on his right is a gap > for Bellatrix Lestrange and her husband, who are still in Azkaban.) > How does she manage to avoid becoming a Death Eater when her husband, > her brother in law and her own sister are all members of the group? > Does she have some sort of special position with Lord Voldemort? Potioncat: Just because she wasn't named doesn't mean she wasn't there. We have Snape's comment, paraphrased: "You know as well as I do that the Dark Lord isn't forgiving." I'm not sure about her membership, but she knows a lot about the organization and about the Dark Lord; but I have the feeling she's experienced the more unpleasant side of the DEs. She could well be playing a role of empty headed little Homemaker, keeping herself out of actual membership. She kept Draco out of Drumstrang and I don't believe distance was the real issue. Now she's trying to get Draco out of a dangerous mission. She is a real Slytherin, isn't she? What will she do in the next book? From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Sat Aug 20 08:20:54 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:20:54 +0200 Subject: Secret Keepers (was: Several replies and answers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4306E7E6.4080707@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138187 Valky: >Dumbledore is not hiding himself in Grimmauld place, he hides the >Headquarters of the OOtP. He is the leader of the OOtP, a >separate entity from the Headquarters. James Lily and Harry were the >entities being hidden by the SK charm. If it was written down in a >note the note would say "James, Lily and Harry Potter are at - ## >abcdefg street Godrics Hollow" and I think that while you are the >secret you cannot be the secret keeper. Making it reasonably >consistent in its inner workings. Fabian: Ok, let me rephrase myself then. I think the smarter course of action would be to have the note say "The home of James, Lily and Harry Potter are at .....". And then themselves could be the secretkeeper. Of course, it's not really relevant, since as someone pointed out, there'd be no books to read if they did. /Fabian From bunnyc at optusnet.com.au Sat Aug 20 12:11:17 2005 From: bunnyc at optusnet.com.au (Bunny) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:11:17 +1000 Subject: re Are there less Horcruxes than we think? Message-ID: <002e01c5a580$450130b0$73a01fd3@dee> No: HPFGUIDX 138188 Please excuse me if this has already been discussed, but to my way of thinking the very first piece of soul to be destroyed was surely when Voldemort was hit by the rebounding AK curse at Godric's Hollow? Maybe this would explain why the entire property was reduced to rubble. Would like to hear other opinions. Bunny From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 10:39:00 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:39:00 -0000 Subject: The Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138189 Kris: > So, who enforces the vow? Who is to say you have met up to the > terms? Ceridwen: JMO, the necklace and the mead weren't the final attempts. Draco continued plotting the murder, as well as kept working to bring the DEs into Hogwarts. He, too, may have started to let time interfere, making less effort. Or he may have decided to scrap the plans he had and make better ones. And, Snape's vow didn't seem to have a time limit, but maybe Draco's task did. If I asked someone to make a UV to help someone who is tasked to complete a project by X date, then that person would be expected to provide the help by X date as well, even if it wasn't mentioned in the UV. That would be known, as would the project. Neither are mentioned in the Spinner's End chapter, but we know at the end what the vow is meant to support. Also, two things happened on the tower that would point to Draco not being able to complete his mission. 1) He begins to lower his wand. 2) He is seen as lowering his wand and not raising it, and a third party informs Snape that Draco doesn't seem to be able to fulfill his misssion. It could be that the information given is the trigger all by itself. But Snape takes a good look at what's happening and sees that Draco's wand is not in attack position. And, since we don't know anything about the UV other than what we saw, and what Ron informs Harry of later on, the UV could take over and force the person under its onus, to do the deed at a set trigger. It seems like a Dark Arts sort of vow, it may remove choice once it has been invoked. Ceridwen From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 13:52:30 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:52:30 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138190 Holy Cow -- someone else! I'd nearly given up, I thought I was alone. Thank you, thank you, Auria! > > hg: > > The idea that Dumbledore's death > > was faked hasn't been warmly received on any board, so I've been "in the closet" on this one. But I've been collecting evidence and re-reading carefully; I've got a lot of indicators that it happened, but without being able to secure a motive, I've been reluctant to post. Auria: > You said > you can't secure a motive. Well let me try here. Dumbledore knows > that LV can link into Harry's thoughts just as Harry could link to LV's before LV started operating occlumency against Harry. So logically Dumbledore would not want Harry to know of any plot to outsmart LV and defeat him in case LV can practise legilimens on Harry and find out. hg: Absolutely. Harry would have to be utterly convinced of the death, so Voldemort would be utterly convinced, and what better way than to witness it? (As you say, Voldemort might decide to take a visit to Harry's brain to make sure!) But doesn't this sound horrible? How could Dumbledore deceive Harry so (or Hagrid, or anyone else for that matter)? The answer is this: making the right choice or the easy choice. Dumbledore made the mistake (as he admits in OOP) of loving Harry more than all the people of the world, pretty much; loving Harry more than the nameless, faceless people who would suffer at Voldemort's hands. He's NOT making that mistake anymore. Yes he loves Harry, but if it came down to deceiving Harry or sacrificing thousands of people, he'd choose to deceive Harry. [What's also nice about this scene is it ends up being a win-win for Dumbledore. Either Snape does "kill" him (I don't believe Snape was in on any scheme Dumbledore may have had) and he can fake his death and go underground, or he DOESN'T, and he's got an opportunity to show Harry that he can trust Snape. It's the right choice/easy choice situation for Snape, too. Incidentally, Dumbledore can wholly TRUST Snape to BE SNAPE, without wholly trusting him to be good, in my opinion.] So then a big motive for Dumbledore wanting his death to be faked? For all the world to be convinced of his death, so Hogwarts will appear vulnerable, to set a trap for Voldemort. He knows Voldemort wants something from Hogwarts, and it's quite a neat little reversal of the trap Voldemort set for Harry at the Ministry. (Yes, he takes the safety of his students seriously, naysayers; it's the summer.) Absolutely. Auria: > For Snape to fight against Bellatrix's suspicion and convince her that he really is a DE, then what better way but to agree to the unbreakable vow. Snape is a superb occlumens and was looking directly into Narcissa's eyes when they made the vow so he could have known in advance what she was going to ask him. I think the final request for Snape to complete the task if Draco > fails maybe was unxpected as he does pause before agreeing to this > one. And perhaps because of Snape's need to complete the vow, that he then informed Dumbledore of this act and together with Slughorn came up with a plan to fake D's death and use Snape's completion of his vow to maintain LV's acceptance of his loyalty. That would tie in both objectives, giving Dubledore the bonus of being able to search for horcruxes undetected and to help Harry defeat LV. hg: And it would get the Ministry off his tail. Good point about the eye contact btw Snape and Narcissa. I was thinking that Snape didn't know what he was agreeing to, but you have a point -- even if it's not said on the page, he could be using legilimency. The only catch in what you've said -- for me, anyway -- is Snape doesn't necessarily have to know Dumbledore's plan. One could read it either way. If Snape knows, then he's definitely committed to Voldemort's downfall; if he doesn't know, then he's been flushed out by Dumbledore and Slughorn -- outed to the world as a baddy. (And Dumbledore would probably thank him for his help, inadvertent as it was! Wouldn't that be a scene? Just like his temper tantrum in PoA!) If he's in on it, then he had better be a better Occlumens than Voldemort is a Legilimens, otherwise he's in HUGE trouble. Auria: As for the portrait in the headmaster's office, I'm sure that could easily be faked too, especially as Dumbledore was sleeping in it when it first appeared. hg: The same for the rest of the signs pointing to Dumbledore's death: the AK, the fall, the trickle, the body at the base of the tower, the covered body Hagrid carries, or the flames and the phoenix. Save for Dumbledore's repeated assertion that "death is but the next great adventure" and his lack of fear of dying, there is nothing in the six stories we've read to date that to me necessitates Dumbledore's death being authentic. The old guy with the beard dies, the three stages of alchemy -- these arguments aren't based in the canon. And the shopping list of signs that point to Dumbledore's death can all arguably be fake. So far, you've pointed out three really rock-solid reasons why Dumbledore would make the choice: to preserve Snape's vow, to convince Harry; both of these would ensure that Voldemort believed it and was lured to Hogwarts (presumably, to look for a Horcrux he'd left there? or for something he'd really want to use to make a Horcrux?); and to hunt down Horcruxes unhampered by Ministry tails. Let me briefly note the indicators that Slughorn could have stood in for Dumbledore that night, so as to get this up on the board to you. I can hunt down my documented quotes later. 1) The five minutes (for Harry to go get the cloak). 2) Dumbledore's language in the whole cave/tower scene. 3) Swam with the agility of a much younger man. 4) Forgot that Harry was dripping and freezing behind him. 5) Appears to be left-handed, when Dumbledore is right-handed. (Slughorn appears to be left-handed, or at least ambidextrous -- try envisioning them standing back to back waving their wands in one identical motion for proof.) 6) His own goblet keeps emptying. 7) Reacts to potion same as Ron reacted to bezoar. This is before Harry turns to get water from the lake. (I don't know entirely what to make of that, but I do wonder if he swallowed a bezoar after Harry turned his back.) 8) Why doesn't he ever Accio? Three missed opportunities to do so. 9) Hand on his chest on the tower. 10) "Mead I would probably never drink" line: he could have overheard Hermione in the infirmary (Pomfrey thinks there are seven visitors when Hagrid comes in). The bedside cabinet is on my short-list of eavesdropper suspects. 11) Slughorn re-collected the dusty dragon's blood for use later -- possibly the trickle? 12) Slughorn is absent from the night's events, until he appears in the office, looking worse off than anyone, and "EJACULATES" his line about Snape. 13) Slughorn wants to get the students out of there immediately, seems concerned about taking the time for a funeral. (For the students' protection, or for the work that will be involved in faking a funeral.) 14) Big one to me: Dumbledore's eyes "turned green in the reflection of the basin;" and Slughorn's "pale gooseberry eyes had found Dumbledore's injured hand." Gooseberry is green. 15) Another biggie: Dumbledore produces, with his left hand, a potions knife with which to cut his arm. 16) Dumbledore doesn't toast, but he does in the cave. Auria, if you (or anyone else) has continued interest in this, I will post my more organized collection of these noted inconsistencies with quotes and page numbers. However, this theory is my BABY. Any responders PLEASE take that to heart and save the flames for the backyard grill. REALLY looking forward to your reply, Auria! And maybe someone else will have something to add?... hg. From lealess at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 13:54:21 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:54:21 -0000 Subject: Narcissa and Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138191 When Severus pulls Draco out of Slughorn's party for an impromptu interrogation in the bathroom, he tries Legilimency without success, leading him to speculate that Bellatrix taught Draco Occlumency. However, Bellatrix seems like someone who wears her heart on her sleeve. The only thing she has to hide is her distrust of Severus, a distrust Voldemort probably shares. Not only is Bellatrix often ravingly transparent, she is a fugitive. How much time can she comfortably spend with Draco? When Severus guesses incorrectly that Bellatrix has taught Draco Occlumency, this probably only increases Draco's contempt for his professor. It is more likely that Draco learned Occlumency from Narcissa. She has the time to devote to teaching Draco, and she has the motivation of protecting her son, not to mention her husband's secrets, and their property and name, from both Ministry and Voldemort. So, if Severus tried to learn about Draco's task at Spinner's End by using Legilimency on Narcissa, he may have been misled by a superb Occlumens into making the Unbreakable Vow. He may have seen only what she wanted him to see. He would have been better off using Legilimency on Bellatrix, but Narcissa was the one breaking down into obscene tears, was the one offering information, so he may have overlooked the generally less stable sister. If Narcissa was able to use Occlumency to hide Draco's task from Severus, then he was essentially hoisted on his own petard. He may have spent a good deal of the next school year simply trying to find out what Draco's mission was, after all. If he only found out what the mission was on the Astronomy Tower...? Which leads to the question: how are all these Death Eaters and their families learning Occlumency? Harry had to be specially taught, by Severus. I wonder if Occlumency is taught as part of DADA in seventh year. If that is the case, then one would have to be an excellent Legilimens to even bother with it. lealess From alisondd at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 14:12:40 2005 From: alisondd at yahoo.com (Alison D) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:12:40 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "Cathy Drolet" wrote: >> > Not true, one other person saw Snape kill Dumbledore, the Narrator; > and in 6 books the Narrator has never EVER been wrong. The Narrator has led the reader astray in previous books, but an example from HBP can be found on pg. 603 of the US ed. "But before he could finish this jinx, excruciating pain hit Harry: he keeled over in the grass. Someone was screaming, he would surely die of this agony, Snape was going to torture him to death or madness -" It is only once the reader hears Snape's voice a few lines down that you become privy to the fact that it was not Snape casting the Cruciatus Curse, but in fact another DE. The Narrator may be third person but is subject to Harry's inherent prejudices. There were three known DE's outside, not including Snape, with Harry who were capable of casting the spell, but the Narrator led the reader to believe it was Snape, though there was only a 1 in 4 chance. Snape spent most of his confrontation with Harry simply blocking Harry's spells and not casting any of his own. The Narrator takes you where they want you to go or where you allow yourself to be led. If you choose to say the Narrator has never been wrong - fine, but the Narrator has indeed misled the reader, no doubt more than once. Alison From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 14:13:43 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:13:43 -0000 Subject: Narcissa (was Re: Snape: the Riddle... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Just because she [Narcissa] wasn't named doesn't mean she wasn't there. We have > Snape's comment, paraphrased: "You know as well as I do that the Dark > Lord isn't forgiving." I'm not sure about her membership, but she > knows a lot about the organization and about the Dark Lord; but I > have the feeling she's experienced the more unpleasant side of the > DEs. > > She could well be playing a role of empty headed little Homemaker, > keeping herself out of actual membership. No, I don't think Narcissa is a Death Eater. When Harry, Ginny and Ron meet up with Narcissa and Draco at Madam Malkin's shop a heated discussion ensues. Harry and Ron draw their wands and point them at Draco. "Put those away," she [Narcissa] said coldly to Harry and Ron. "If you attack my son again, I shall ensure that is the last thing you ever do." "Really?" said Harry, taking a step forward and gazing into the smoothly arrogant face that, for all its pallor, still resembled her sister's. He was as tall as she was now. "Going to get a few Death Eater pals to do us in, are you?" Two points: 1. Harry obviously doesn't realize how powerful Narcissa is. Her empty-headed homemaker act has fooled him, as it also fooled Snape. 2. Harry knows who the Death Eaters are, and he doesn't count her as one of them. Merrylinks, also wondering if Narcissa will play an important role in Book 7 From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Sat Aug 20 15:30:46 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:30:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who taught DADA before Quirrell? Message-ID: <1f1.422d3989.3038a6a6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138194 It is possible that the jinx on teh DADA position is only strong when voldie is in power or attempting to be in power. and the 10 years while voldie was hiding out in some place pocessing rats and snakes the jinx went into temporary hiding because he didn't have the power to enforce it so to speak. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 20 15:36:23 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:36:23 -0000 Subject: FILK: Draco Fry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138195 Draco Fry To the tune of Rainbow High from Lloyd Webber's Evita MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat2439.html THE SCENE: The Room of Requirement. DRACO prepares a batch of Polyjuice with his henchmen CRABBE and GOYLE in order to transform the latter into henchgals. DRACO: My plan to fix the cabinet Won't work till I put Crabbe in it So let's get started Let's not drag this out too long Let's now get devious We'll start our TV-watching DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE (stirring the cauldron) Leech, lacewings, knotgrass Bicorn, blend, boil Stir, magic, smoke, fluxweed Stew, boomslang, enchantment, hodgepodge CRABBE I vow to help Draco, let beauty infuse me And so, Polyjuice me, to a fetching young girl I need to be guzzling, I want to help Draco try! Let all that's "X" be turned to a "Y"! DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE Stir, magic, smoke, fluxweed Stew, boomslang, enchantment, hodgepodge GOYLE We'll show Potter, don't dare go agin me So P. Parkinson me, pretty dimples and curls Because I'm a villain, I will not let Draco fry! He doesn't need Snape, just Crabbe and I. DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE Stir, magic, smoke, fluxweed Stew, boomslang, enchantment, hodgepodge DRACO All my Death Eating buddies expect me to slaughter Al Dumbledore I need Crabbe & Goyle They're my servants, let darkness befriend `em And so gender-bend `em, though I might hurl Just hear Voldy saying, he wants to see Draco vie With magical killers (The Polyjuice transforms CRABBE and GOYLE into major babes ? the ANTI-TRIO gaze upon one another with surprise as certain intriguing possibilities are considered) DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE Oh, truly would none of us try anything that is rash But, technically speaking, it couldn't be labeled as "slash" (The ANTI-TRIO get back to the matter at hand) CRABBE & GOYLE This Room that's Required Our Draco's gonna stay, stake out every yard His gals will stand guard DRACO, CRABBE & GOYLE Look out, Albus Dumble Because you oughta know with whom you're gonna be messing Just a double cross with Just a double cross with Just a double cross with some cross-dressing - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 16:06:26 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:06:26 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (but maybe not 100%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138196 "zgirnius" wrote: > The death of Barty Jr. in prison was, > of course, faked through the use of > Polyjuice Potion. The Narrator would > not have told us this, any more than > she told us that Moody wasn't Moody > in GoF. So the Dumbledore Death Scene > certainly *could* have been faked in > a similar way. Yes that's true, in fact the only hope Snape lovers have is if Dumbledore is not really dead and the entire climax of book 6 was all just a colossal hoax or practical joke; but if we learn in book 7 that it's true then millions of people will be storming bookstores demanding their money back. There is no way a plot twist like that could produce a satisfactory book. And Dumbledore had to go anyway so Harry could face Voldemort (and then Snape) in the final battle without backup. By the way, I predicted right after book 4 came out that Dumbledore would die at the end of book 6; I also predicted Harry would die at the end of book 7. > The Narrator limits herself to > telling us about Harry's thoughts > and feelings, and leaves us to > guess at those of the other characters. Right again, but when one character has a look of extreme insane hatred on his face when he murders another character it's not terribly difficult to deduce what that character is feeling. > We also know of at least one other > significant interaction relevant to the events, but not what transpired. > (The argument overheard by Hagrid.) I confess at the moment I have no viable theory what that argument was all about, but it doesn't matter that we don't know what noises Dumbledore and Snape made with their mouths on that occasion because it can't change the fact that Snape murdered Dumbledore and that makes Snape a villain. End of story. Well . almost end of story. When I say Snape is a villain I don't mean he has never in his life done something good and might even do so again because nobody is 100% bad; I've seen pictures of Hitler smiling at children and he was kind to his dog, at least until he poisoned the poor beast. As I said before I think Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry Potter until Voldemort is dead, he did this for his own sinister reasons but it can not be denied he did good when he saved Harry in book 1. I also believe Snape loved Lilly and loves her memory to this day, and that's why he hates Harry, not because he looks like James but because he blames Harry for causing the death of his mother. And it's true, if Harry had not been born she would still be alive. But after murdering Dumbledore Snape can not be redeemed, it's just too big, but perhaps a small crumb could be thrown in that direction. I can picture a scene in the next book: Harry is the winner, he has just killed Voldemort after a titanic struggle, he stumbles away injured and exhausted when Snape shows up free at last from his Unbreakable Vow, he doesn't need Harry anymore. Snape disarms Harry raises his wand and is just about to strike with a killing curse when he looks into Harry's eyes and sees his mother's eyes, Lilly's eyes. Snape hesitates. I don't know what will happen then, perhaps Wormtail will repay his debt to Harry. Eggplant From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 16:22:18 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:22:18 -0000 Subject: Witherwings /was Spinners End and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" wrote: > For some reason I keep thinking of the fact that in Chapter 2 Snape > makes an unbreakable vow, yet in Chapter 3 we have Dumbledore with a > withered wing, so to speak... > Tonks: On a different trail... Now this is an interesting idea (DD's hand as a withered wing. Thank you.) That connection had not occured to me before. We know how she likes to play with words. DD's hand is withered. We see Phoenix connected with him everywhere. And she renames Buckbeak, Whitherwings. I wonder if this is a clue of some sort? It sure jumped out at me when I read your post. I still think there is more here than just an old wizard with a bird and an interested patonius. Why name Bucky that?? What connection does it have to DD? I think that the phoenix is somehow part of DD. As I have said before, maybe it was his "burning time". Also we have Bucky renamed in hiding. We have an offer to do the same for the Mayfoys. There seems to be a theme here, but just how far does it goes? And why does she bring it up at all? I think that DD is really dead, so I am not going there for him, except that he might come back later as a phoenix. But why would she bring up the idea of renaming and hiding (maybe in plain sight) and then not use it for something more important? Tonks_op From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 16:48:17 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:48:17 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: <1c5.2e715d1b.30383cef@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138198 juli17 at a... wrote: > if she [JKR] wanted it to be > perfectly clear that Snape > murdered DD and was undeniably > evil, she would have written > the scene that way.[ ] Snape > would have AKed DD with no > hesitation, with a flourish no doubt. But that's exactly what Snape did, he murdered Dumbledore the instant he walked into the room, he didn't hesitate a millisecond. > Snape would have taken the > opportunity to gloat You really want the clich? of the gabby villain, I thought you wanted Snape to murder without hesitation not the "now I'm going to tell you how I did it and how smart I am and give you time to get away" speech. > Dumbledore wouldn't have begged > Snape, he would have spoken > his disappointment. Snape never gave him time, he didn't hesitate, he murdered him as quickly as it was possible to do so and with a look of extreme hatred on his face. > Snape would never have let the > opportunity to torture Harry with > a crucio or two pass, let alone > stop another DE from doing it. Not if he wanted Harry alive and healthy as I believe he does. > Snape would have really taunted > Harry, not with semi-lessons > included, but in full nasty mode. Snape sure seemed like he was in full nasty mode to me. And semi-lessons? > Snape would have incapacitated > Harry after a fulfilling bit of > torture and taken him to Voldemort Why would Snape do that? Snape wants Voldemort dead as much as anyone and he is one of the very few who know that Harry is the only one who could do it. > Snape would have thrown a few > nasty spells around at the > likes of Hermoine,Luna,and Flitwick. Snape is evil and Snape is a villain, but he's not a cartoon villain. Even Snape might be reluctant to murder children if it was not necessary to do so. > he wouldn't have just slunk out of > Hogwarts, he would have left some > serious destruction behind. Snape and his Death Eater pals were outnumber about 100 to 1, after they had completed their mission with a huge success they just wanted to escape with their skin. Eggplant From merpsiren at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 15:46:37 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris Schultz) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:46:37 -0000 Subject: The Unbreakable Vow - loophole? (original Message 138152) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138199 "houyhnhnm102" > If the Vow is open-ended as you say, I think that argues for > Loyal!Snape. It would be in Evil!Snape's best interest to get it over > with as soon as possible, but Snape's actions during HBP make it look > like he's trying to run out the clock and take his chances. I think > that's what the meltdown on the lawn is about. He doesn't get the > chance to find out if he would have had the courage to just blow it > off and take the consequences. Kris here: I am totally in belief that Snape is completely loyal to DD. I have read the "blow out on the lawn" as Snape once again trying to teach Harry to master his emotions and close his mind. Snape has been trying to teach this very important lesson to Harry for at least two years. Snape attempts to teach occlumency... Harry doesn't practice. Snape in OotP US pg 233-234 is trying to teach Harry (and the whole class)to brew the "Draught of Peace" which calms anxiety and soothe agitation (controls emotion)... Harry skipped a step and is assigned detention homework: 12" parchment on the properties and uses of moonstone... what is moonstone for? Its supposed magical effects include helping a person gain emotional balance. When on the lawn Snape is able to easily throw off and block all of Harry's spells, because he (Snape) can easily read Harry's intentions... since he is not controlling his emotions. -Kris From merpsiren at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 15:51:28 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris Schultz) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:51:28 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138200 > > > hg: > > > The idea that Dumbledore's death > > > was faked hasn't been warmly received on any board, so I've > been "in the closet" on this one. But I've been collecting evidence > and re-reading carefully; I've got a lot of indicators that it > happened, but without being able to secure a motive, I've been > reluctant to post. Kris here: I change my mind daily of the fate of DD... so don't feel bad about throwing this idea out... I think it is great! Some of the things that made me think of DD faking: 1) He is not buried in the earth. Very Christ-like (and like Aslan from Chronicles of Narnia) he is laid on a stone table... possibly to be reborn/ressurrected? 2) DD directing Harry before school year begins to always keep his invisiblilty cloak with him. I can't help but believe that it is knowing that the time will come that Harry must be an *invisible witness* able to report back the "murder". 3) DD stuns Harry on the top of the tower ensuring that he is a witness, as well that he doesn't misinterpret what is being acted out in front of him and interfere.. and mistakenly attack Draco or Snape (whom DD is being very careful to protect). -Kris From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Aug 20 17:07:02 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:07:02 -0800 Subject: Audio Versions (Was Occlumency, Snape, ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138201 >Michelle: >And on a mildy related note, does anyone know if Jim Dale did the >Audio CD version of HBP? I LOVE him doing the rest of them and >would be delighted to find out I can have him read me HBP as well! Finally, a question I can answer. Yes, Jim Dale reads HBP. The audio CDs and tapes were released in the US the same day as the book. The audio version read by Stephen Fry will be released August 22nd. I enjoy the audio versions a lot - I have the Jim Dale (American versions), the Stephen Fry (British versions), and Rufus Beck (German). [German and British audio versions of HBP haven't been released yet.] There are some characters I think each one of them does better than the others and there are some characters I really don't like from each. I think Dale's Kreachur is the best of the three, but Beck's Rita Skeeter (Kimmkorn) is extremely annoying to me. >Michelle: >Oh, and I think the title of the 7th book should be "Harry Potter >and How Voldemort Got His *ss Handed To Him By a 17 Year Old Wizard >That He Couldn't Kill As a Baby". Or HP and the Final Seventh HP and the DA HP and the Revenge of the Snake HP and the Explanation for All of the Green Light HP Gets a Green Light HP and the Return of the Phoenix HP and the Eye of the Serpent etc., etc. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 15:23:00 2005 From: ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com (ellendvlmaas) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:23:00 -0000 Subject: Spinners End and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138202 "Kathy" wrote: > For some reason I keep thinking of the fact that in Chapter 2 Snape > makes an unbreakable vow, yet in Chapter 3 we have Dumbledore with a > withered wing, so to speak... What struck me about your observation is that we keep hearing Dumbledore saying he "trusts Severus completely" and offers no explanation. What if the explanation is that Severus had made an UV with Dumbledore to be in D's service and offer his protection to D? Then, when Snape makes an UV in Chapter 2, it appears that it is to kill D, whether or not Snape knows it at the time. I wonder if D's whithered hand is evidence that an UV CAN be broken -- or rather destroyed -- if the vow maker makes an opposite vow with another person, in this case Narcissa? Ellen From carodave92 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 15:38:07 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:38:07 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle Goes Home Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138203 When Tom Riddle first visits the Gaunt house, he meets Uncle Morfin for the first time. He enters the house, and immediately begins to speak to Morfin...in Parseltongue. How does he know to do this? Wouldn't it be more natural to start in English? This really bothers me and I haven't seen it addressed here. Any theories? Carodave From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 20 17:13:17 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:13:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138204 zgirnius: > I don't really understand the distinction here, maybe it is about how > you think the UV works? Snape *could* refuse to carry out the terms of > the Vow, it seems, and in so doing would avoid becoming a murderer. > (Although I think it is a lot to assume that he is not one already, as > he is a former DE...) [...] > > The UV does not take away all of Snape's choices-just at the critical > juncture, they narrow down to two (kill DD, or die). houyhnhnm: The real test for Snape would have come that night if Draco had *not* succeeded in repairing the cabinet. When Dumbledore returned to the castle poisoned, would Snape have risked his own life by trying to save Dumbledore or would he simply have let Dumbledore die, thereby rendering the the Vow moot and saving his own neck? We'll never know and Snape will never know. I think that's what the "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!" breakdown was about. From muellem at bc.edu Sat Aug 20 17:18:11 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:18:11 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > juli17 at a... wrote: > > > if she [JKR] wanted it to be > > perfectly clear that Snape > > murdered DD and was undeniably > > evil, she would have written > > the scene that way.[ ] Snape > > would have AKed DD with no > > hesitation, with a flourish no doubt. > > But that's exactly what Snape did, he murdered Dumbledore the instant > he walked into the room, he didn't hesitate a millisecond. > > > Dumbledore wouldn't have begged > > Snape, he would have spoken > > his disappointment. > > Snape never gave him time, he didn't hesitate, he murdered him as > quickly as it was possible to do so and with a look of extreme hatred > on his face. > colebiancardi here: ok. What book were you reading? Look at p595 AmEd "..the doors to the ramparts burst open once more and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the 4 Death Eaters, including the enraged werefolf, and Malfoy. "We've got a problem, Snape," said the lumpy Amycus, whose eyes & wand were fixed alike upon Dumbledore, "the boy doesn't seem able -- But somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly "Severus..." The sound frighten Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward & pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The 3 Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed. Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion & hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus... please.." Snape raised his wand & pointed it directly at Dumbledore. ok, Snape comes in and does an assessment of the scene - the first sentance shows us that - "his black eyes swept the scene...." from DD to the DE's & Malfoy. A DE speaks to Snape, DD speaks to Snape TWICE - Snape walked forward....he pushed Draco roughly out of the way <== was it roughly because he resented what he HAD to do -- No Hestination? No hestination would be Snape walked in and did an AK. End of sentence. Does hestination to you mean that Snape, the DE's, Draco & DD all sit down and have tea & cookies? > > Snape would never have let the > > opportunity to torture Harry with > > a crucio or two pass, let alone > > stop another DE from doing it. > > Not if he wanted Harry alive and healthy as I believe he does. > > > Snape would have really taunted > > Harry, not with semi-lessons > > included, but in full nasty mode. > > Snape sure seemed like he was in full nasty mode to me. And semi-lessons? > colebiancardi again: Full nasty mode to you, perhaps. We've seen Snape be a heck of lot more nasty. Was he calling Harry names? No. He was telling him a couple of things - no unforgivable curses & blocked again & again, until he can keep his mouth shut & his mind closed. Actually, Snape was not as bad as we've seen him with Harry like he was in books 1-3 - I thought Snape was much more nasty then. Snape wouldn't let anyone curse or hex Harry, and all Snape did was deflect Harry's curses - he did not counterhex Harry. Until Harry got on his weak spot - with the Coward Line - only then did Snape do an wizard equivalent of a *bitch-slap* with the white-hot, whiplike something that hit Harry in the face. > > Snape would have incapacitated > > Harry after a fulfilling bit of > > torture and taken him to Voldemort > > Why would Snape do that? Snape wants Voldemort dead as much as anyone > and he is one of the very few who know that Harry is the only one who > could do it. So, why didn't Snape take Harry with them? I think we can agree that Snape is much more powerful as a wizard than Harry is at this point. Or why didn't Snape let the other DE kill him? I don't think Voldy would have cared that much. > > > Snape would have thrown a few > > nasty spells around at the > > likes of Hermoine,Luna,and Flitwick. > > Snape is evil and Snape is a villain, but he's not a cartoon villain. > Even Snape might be reluctant to murder children if it was not > necessary to do so. Flitwick is a child? Tonks is a child? Lupin is a child? Hey, there were some adults there - why didn't Snape kill them? > > > he wouldn't have just slunk out of > > Hogwarts, he would have left some > > serious destruction behind. > > Snape and his Death Eater pals were outnumber about 100 to 1, after > they had completed their mission with a huge success they just wanted > to escape with their skin. colebiancardi again: 100 to 1? Really? Seems like the DE's had the blocking spell going pretty well and were holding their own and if it wasn't for the Felix potion, the kids would have been toast. I only counted 6 OotP members at the base of the tower - Ginny, Neville, Ron, Lupin, Tonks, McGonagall. Contrast that with the DE's - Fenrir, Amycus, the lumpy DE, Alecto, and it is stated on page 599 - there were 3 more unnamed DE's fighting Tonks, Lugin & McGonagall. Add in Draco & Snape, sounds like great odds that the DE's, with Snape, could have caused so much more destruction if they wanted to. On another post, you mentioned that the *look* of hatred & revulsion on Snape's face was a dead giveaway for him being evil. Sorry, page 571 "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth & tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside" Is Harry evil? It is no coincidence that Rowling wrote those words to describe what Harry was feeling & what was on Snape's face. colebiancardi (who may be wrong about Good!Snape, but at least reads the books carefully) From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sat Aug 20 17:21:46 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:21:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle Goes Home Message-ID: <1d9.42e8600b.3038c0aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138206 In a message dated 8/20/2005 1:08:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, carodave92 at yahoo.com writes: When Tom Riddle first visits the Gaunt house, he meets Uncle Morfin for the first time. He enters the house, and immediately begins to speak to Morfin...in Parseltongue. How does he know to do this? Wouldn't it be more natural to start in English? This really bothers me and I haven't seen it addressed here. Any theories? Carodave The Gaunts are his relatives and no doubt he's heard at least something about them. The family surely would have bee the subject of at some gossip in the Wizarding World. Also Ridde is a Legilimence. Even if he didn't know from what he'd heard he most likely could've read Morfin's mind. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 17:45:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:45:10 -0000 Subject: Snape, dark lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138207 Ginny wrote: So, even though I would like to see Snape as part of a plan for the good guys, I am going to suggest the complete opposite. I have not read a post suggesting this, but I might have missed it. I am not seriously invested in this theory, just some ideas. What if Snape's ambition is to become the new dark lord? What if he was playing both DD and Voldy? He wants Harry to stay alive because he believes Harry will eventually kill Voldy. He was okay with killing DD because now there is one of the world's strongest wizards out of the way. Snape might really be the WW's best at occlumency. He could give that credit to Voldy, but still be the best. Then we see before he leaves the grounds (after killing DD) that he is able to deflect all of Harry's spells like they are nothing. His potion adjustments (and the extra spells) show he is very knowledgable. Which brings me to another thing. Several people have suggested that Snape loved Lily and was sad she died. I know Voldy said she didn't have to die, but I don't think Snape loved her. I bet he was furious that a "mudblood" was getting so much attention at potion making! If Slughorn commented half as much when Lily and Snape were in class as he did in Harry's class about Lily's talent, Snape must have been very upset that he himself was not getting that attention when he clearly had a lot of talent. Furthermore, maybe Snape hated that DD was always taking such care of Harry. I think in Ch. 2 off HBP he even calls Harry "DD's favorite student" (I lent my copy of my book, so correct me if I'm wrong). That for sure must have brought about anti-Dumbledore feelings within him. vmonte responds: Yes, there are a lot of people who think this, including me. I really do think he is playing both sides, and waiting things out, like a big fat spider that waits for his prey to get caught in their web. I do think that "Spinner's End" means exactly that. The vow was something Snape never expected, but he did agree to it. It's now over for him. He has at least revealed that he is bad. I also find it hard to believe that Snape loved Lily. It's more likely that she had something he wanted(perhaps she wrote a book of spells?). Anyway, I'm pretty sure the spell Snape cured Draco with was a spell he learned from Lily. Snape's redemption hasn't happened yet--JMO. Vivian :) http://www.vmonte.com/HPHome.html I put together a collection of links to HP sites and related HP links. Are there any good HP sites out there that I don't have listed? If anyone is interested in helping me out, please email me direct and I'll gladly add your suggested sites (only PG sites please). I'm not a computer person so let me know if the graphics I made come up ok on your computer screen (html stinks). Thanks! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 18:01:46 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:01:46 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138208 Colebiancardi again: > Full nasty mode to you, perhaps. We've seen Snape be a heck of lot > more nasty. Was he calling Harry names? No. He was telling him a > couple of things - no unforgivable curses & blocked again & again, > until he can keep his mouth shut & his mind closed. Actually, Snape > was not as bad as we've seen him with Harry like he was in books 1- 3 - > I thought Snape was much more nasty then. Snape wouldn't let anyone > curse or hex Harry, and all Snape did was deflect Harry's curses - he > did not counterhex Harry. Until Harry got on his weak spot - with the > Coward Line - only then did Snape do an wizard equivalent of a > *bitch-slap* with the white-hot, whiplike something that hit Harry in > the face. Alla: Umm, I thought that Snape was very nasty to Harry during all five years, but that is just me. As to whether he was in full nasty mode here - my answer is YES absolutely. I subscribe to Dan's theory that Snape did not kill Harry because he knows Prophecy in its entirety and wants Harry to kill Voldie and then take Voldie's palce by eliminating Harry. So, of course Snape won't let others DE Crucio! Harry, because it may lead to significant injuries or maybe even death, no? BUT that "whie hot whiplike" curse showed to me that Snape has absolutely no hesitation about inflicting pain on Harry, when HE feels like it. Of course Snape knows that this curse would not kill the boy, but why not hurt him a bit? It WAS painful, no? I think you are downplaying it, when you are saying it was an equivalent of "bitch slup", but again JMO. Colebian; > So, why didn't Snape take Harry with them? I think we can agree that > Snape is much more powerful as a wizard than Harry is at this point. > Or why didn't Snape let the other DE kill him? I don't think Voldy > would have cared that much. Alla: Again, I believe that Snape is willing to let Harry live for now till he kills Voldie. I think Snape IS thinking that he is much more powerful wizard than Harry right now ( and I am sure that in terms of wizarding skills he is absolutely correct) So, Snape may think that he would have no problem taking Harry out when the time comes. Here is hoping that he would be in for nasty surprise. :-) oh, and NO, contrary to Eggplant, I don't want Harry to kill Snape and I don't believe he will, but I do want Snape dead or at least if he lives, I would hope he suffers badly for all he did. Hmmm, how about Lily's spirit showing up in his dreams and scolding him for all he did to her son? Sigh... I doubt it. Lily was probably too forgiving. Maybe Snape would see Dumbledore in his dreams, saying "please Severus, please, don't betray me..." Hmmm. Of course I would read anything JKR writes, but I do want Snape to pay somehow, I really do. :-) Just me of course, Alla. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 18:07:31 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:07:31 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138209 "colebiancardi" wrote: > Full nasty mode to you, perhaps. > We've seen Snape be a heck of lot > more nasty. Was he calling Harry names? No, Snape did not call Harry a doodoo head or some other nasty name so he gets one brownie point for that, but he did murder Dumbledore and I thing he should be fined one or two brownie points for that. Don't you? > why didn't Snape take Harry with them? Why would Snape want to do that? And take Harry where? > why didn't Snape let the other DE kill him? Because Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to protect the life of Harry Potter until he kills Voldemort. > Flitwick is a child? Tonks is a child? > Lupin is a child? Hey, there were some > adults there - why didn't Snape kill them? Snape is evil and Snape is a villain but Snape is not a homicidal maniac, he does not kill people when it not necessary. It is necessary to kill Dumbledore (and Voldemort) if he is to be the most powerful wizard in the world. > [outnumbered] 100 to 1? Really? Yes, really. > I only counted 6 OotP members at the base of the tower And about 600 wizards in other parts of the castle they wanted to get out of after the murder. Eggplant From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 18:19:36 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:19:36 -0000 Subject: Percy In-Reply-To: <20050815135546.98537.qmail@web51407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138210 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > As much as I dislike the idea, and unless JKR has kept some > (more) info from us, I am afraid that Percy is just as > ambitious and self-centered as he appears. Diane C: I'm sorry, I don't think Percy is imperio'd or under anyone's control. I think back to the time Harry went to Percy to discuss what kind of magical studies he should pursue, and Percy advised him to "play to his strengths". Percy is ambitious and self-centered, but he is also a Weasley and a Gryffindor. By joining the Ministry he is doing what is expected of him. By becoming a little bureaucrat, he could be "playing to his strengths", and by keeping Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix advised of what the other Ministry bureaucrats are doing, he could be providing the kind of help only he would be capable of. Bookworm: I don't think Percy is imperio'd either; part of what I snipped referenced JKR's quote that said he wasn't. I haven't seen any evidence (just speculation) to counter my statement above. IMO, Percy is certainly playing to his strength ? loyalty. Unfortunately, that loyalty seems to be blind loyalty to the authorities in power, without any consideration of what is really happening. You are right, he *could* be spying for the Order. But as I said, we have no canon to back this up. Unless his letter to Ron was some in very secret code that no one has figured out, he was praising Umbridge. He was very eager to follow Fudge's orders in Dumbledore's office (OoP). To me, the telling action was rejecting his mother's Christmas present. Even Fudge could understand Percy keeping a Christmas present from his mother ("I didn't want to hurt her feelings."), if Fudg even knew about it. To me, Percy has some very Slytherin-ish characteristics. He was sneaky about his relationship with Penelope and meeting her in the dungeons (!?). He was very quick to both show off and defend his authority as Prefect and Head Boy. "Prefects Who Gained Power" ? that's what Percy wants, and it seems he will "use any means" to get it. Ravenclaw Bookworm From elbarad at aol.com Sat Aug 20 17:58:15 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:58:15 -0000 Subject: Snape. (Was: Sleeping Snape Distrusted by all) In-Reply-To: <4306A5B4.9050206@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138211 Jazmyn > LV knows Snape is in the Order. LV thinks Snape is HIS Spy. He is > acting the double agent. But there's too many things that make me > believe Snape is still Dumbledore's man. This was my feeling too. The main ones were as follows:- * If he was truly a DE he wouldn't (IMO) have risked arguing with Dumbldore over aspects of his work. If he didn't want to do it he'd likely have quietly agreed, and then done as he pleased. * The choice of words JKR uses when describing harry's feelings as he feeds the potion to D and Snape's expression when he raises his wand to kill Dumbledore. " Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, harry forced the goblet..." HBP p534 and "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." HBP p556 * Even when they are fleeing Hogwarts Snape still protects Harry, despite his own personal feelings towards him. He does this under the guise of reinforcing Voldemort's orders, but he acts very swiftly. A wholey evil snape would (IMO)have lingered a short while to enjoy the feeling of watching harry being tortured. Instead he acted instantly to stop the torture from taking place. it seems that, despite his bullying nature and enjoyment of emotional discomfort, he draws no enjoyment of phsyical pain. Jazmyn > Dumbledore would never beg Snape not to kill him. > He would sacrifice his life to save the others even if it's > asking Snape to kill him to do it. Snape had no choice in > the matter. Draco failed to carry out his mission. Snape > had to carry it out for him or DIE die to the vow. Dumbledore >would rather die himself at the hand of his own friend then allow >that friend to die. Then of course Dumbledore would have died and >the Malfoy family would have died after LV found out Draco (and >Snape) failed. And Snape would not be there to rush all the DEs out >and many students might have died too. I find all these points very valid. I believe that JKR's stories are written very skillfuly. It seems to me that the stroy of the HBP is presented with different layers of complexity available for different readers. At face value Snape is a death eater who has betrayed and murdered Dumbledore. This is certainly how my 8 yr old son sees it. I see a different story, one where Dumbledore would never beg for his life, one where Snape and Harry are both revulsed by their actions when carrying out D's orders and harming him in the process. I also see a very real possibilty of JKR intentionally writing these different layers / levels of possibility in her work only to show us in the final installment that the simplistic layer was actually the true one. If Snape truly is a death eater who has betrayed the order, then JKR seems to want some of us to believe that this might not be the case. I'm sure she logs on to discussion boards like this and feels very pleased with herself that we read so many different possibilities into her story! Rebecca From ragingjess at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 17:29:48 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:29:48 -0400 Subject: Snape's Ultimate Plan (was: YES ( was: Did Snape...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138212 Eggplant: Why would Snape do that? Snape wants Voldemort dead as much as anyone and he is one of the very few who know that Harry is the only one who could do it. Hey Eggplant! I've got a question for you. You've written that Snape's goal is to supplant Voldemort as the most powerful Dark wizard in the world. (Or, at least, Great Britain and Ireland. Possibly Belgium and France.) Once he's done that, what happens next? What does Snape plan to do as head bad guy? I'd guess he'd start by eliminating his enemies, but there only appears to be about ten of them, and their number is dwindling by the month. What Snape's big plan? He's got somewhere between 20 and 40 Death Eaters (if they all make it), the giants (I think), and the Dementors (who are a wild card). Is he going to topple the Ministry? Operate a secret terror cell? Rid the UK of muggles? Invade Russia? (This, by the way, would be poor strategic planning. I think we all know that. Brutal winters.) I think this is an interesting theory, but I don't see Snape as anyone who could attract or keep a band of followers, even if they feared him. And unlike Voldemort, he can be killed, and probably would be by one of his fellow DEs. More importantly, I think Snape knows this - I think there's a reason he mainly works alone; his leadership positions are usually advisory ones (like being Head of House). If he doesn't want to run an organization, what does he want? Please forgive me, by the way, if you weren't the person who proposed this theory. I can't find the exact post, and I may have confused you with another aubergine. Going back to work, Jessica From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Sat Aug 20 17:15:33 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:15:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138213 Before I start, I've got to congratulate Saraquel on the plausible cave finding explanation. Thought it was excellent and v.likely. Also thanks Jessica for the rush of excitement I got on finding my first ever post had not only been read but replied to. To get to the point- Asssuming the DumbledoresMan!Snape theory which I stubbornly refuse to let go of... Snape is in a really difficult position here, since he must convince someone that he is ESG! before they kill him on the spot. And I think the person to discover that he was ESG! all along will be Hermione. Remember in HBP where Harry calls him evil? And Hermione says "Evil is a strong word to use" This indicates that she may still have a reasonable doubt of Snape's guilt. Maybe she goes off on her own to find him as she wants to be convinced on his (lack of) guilt. Then she becomes his ally and Snape feeds information to Harry through her? Any takers? Elyse (who is not getting any work done since stumbling onto this messageboard) From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 20 18:34:44 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:34:44 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138214 Alla: >[...] > I subscribe to Dan's theory that Snape did not kill Harry because > he knows Prophecy in its entirety and wants Harry to kill Voldie and > then take Voldie's palce by eliminating Harry. houyhnhnm: "There are only two people in the whole world who know the full contents of the prophecy made about you and Lord Voldemort, and they are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed." (HBP, AE, p. 78) Alla: >[...] > It WAS painful, no? I think you are downplaying it, when you are > saying it was an equivalent of "bitch slup", but again JMO. houyhnhnm: "We're going to the hospital wing," said Ginny. "I'm not hurt," said Harry. (HBP, AE, p. 612) From elbarad at aol.com Sat Aug 20 18:29:38 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:29:38 -0000 Subject: re Are there less Horcruxes than we think? In-Reply-To: <002e01c5a580$450130b0$73a01fd3@dee> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138215 Bunny wrote: > Please excuse me if this has already been discussed, > but to my way of thinking the very first piece of soul to be > destroyed was surely when Voldemort was hit by the > rebounding AK curse at Godric's Hollow? Maybe this > would explain why the entire property was > reduced to rubble. Would like to hear other opinions. > Dumbledore explains this to us on p470 (British version). " But firstly, no, Harry, not seven Horcruxes: six. The seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside his regenerated body. That was the part of him that lived a spectral existance for so many years during his exile: without that he has no self at all." The part of Voldemort's soul to which you refer is the part that was "ripped from my body" (Voldemort, GOF) and hid in the forests of Albania for so long. This is will have to be the final piece of Voldemort's soul to be destroyed. It was a good idea though, Bunny. I have no idea why there was such a large explosion at that moment. Rebecca From carodave92 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 18:28:01 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:28:01 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138216 > > Colebian; > > So, why didn't Snape take Harry with them? I think we can agree > that > > Snape is much more powerful as a wizard than Harry is at this > point. > > Or why didn't Snape let the other DE kill him? I don't think Voldy > > would have cared that much. > > > Alla: > > Again, I believe that Snape is willing to let Harry live for now > till he kills Voldie. I think Snape IS thinking that he is much more > powerful wizard than Harry right now ( and I am sure that in terms > of wizarding skills he is absolutely correct) > > So, Snape may think that he would have no problem taking Harry out > when the time comes. Here is hoping that he would be in for nasty > surprise. :-) Carodave adds: In GoF, Fake!Moody told Harry that he would be honored above all other DEs for killing Harry, after Harry's return from the graveyard, where LV unsuccessfully tried again to kill him. "The Dark Lord didn't manage to kill you, POtter, and he so wanted to...imagine how he will reward me when he finds I have done it for him...I will be honored beyond all other Death Eaters..." (p678 American version) Why doesn't Snape take Harry for LV? The only reason I can come up with is that Snape is actually on the side of good and protecting Harry. (even though I still believe in ESE!Snape) If you believe that Snape is still a DE, then why not take Harry to LV as a prize? LV can then AK Harry and be the supreme wizard of his dreams. Knowing the prophecy, Snape can assist LV by putting a petrificus totalis on Harry so he is helpless while LV kills him. If you believe that Snape is out for himself, then why not take Harry to LV anyway? Knowing the prophecy, one of them will kill the other, leaving Snape with only one to eliminate on his road to supremacy. Carodave From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 18:45:17 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:45:17 -0000 Subject: Snape and Aesop's Fables Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138217 I came across these fables today when tutoring a student on "point of view"' and I was quite stricken by the similarities of the bats to how Severus Snape can be perceived. The Birds, the Beasts, and the Bat THE BIRDS waged war with the Beasts, and each were by turns the conquerors. A Bat, fearing the uncertain issues of the fight, always fought on the side which he felt was the strongest. When peace was proclaimed, his deceitful conduct was apparent to both combatants. Therefore being condemned by each for his treachery, he was driven forth from the light of day, and henceforth concealed himself in dark hiding-places, flying always alone and at night. I see the Birds as being like those in the Order of the Phoenix (which is, of course, a bird) The Beasts are obviously the Death Eaters and Voldemort The Bat is therefore Snape, having been described as bat-like in more than one place in the books. Here's another Bat fable: The Bat and the Weasels A BAT who fell upon the ground and was caught by a Weasel pleaded to be spared his life. The Weasel refused, saying that he was by nature the enemy of all birds. The Bat assured him that he was not a bird, but a mouse, and thus was set free. Shortly afterwards the Bat again fell to the ground and was caught by another Weasel, whom he likewise entreated not to eat him. The Weasel said that he had a special hostility to mice. The Bat assured him that he was not a mouse, but a bat, and thus a second time escaped. If these fables are any way a source of Snape's characteristics, I could see Snape as now being in hiding from both the Order for killing Dumbledore, and Voldemort for saving Draco. However, I don't believe that Snape is exactly like the Bat because I believe he discloses more truth to Dumbledore than to Voldemort and ultimately wants the Good side to win, not the uberweasel Voldemort. Marianne S From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 18:50:34 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle Goes Home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050820185034.33364.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138218 --- carodave92 wrote: > When Tom Riddle first visits the Gaunt house, he > meets Uncle Morfin > for the first time. He enters the house, and > immediately begins to > speak to Morfin...in Parseltongue. How does he know > to do this? > Wouldn't it be more natural to start in English? > This really bothers > me and I haven't seen it addressed here. Any > theories? > A smart kid like Tom would have done his homework and learned all he could about his 'wizarding' family tree and I am assuming if he figured out he was the 'heir' to slyerthin and that his forebeares spoke parseltounge than it'd make sense that his uncle could too. Tom Riddle strikes me as someone who would have been able to figure things out real fast so that would have been an easy conclusion to come to. Laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 20 18:51:33 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:51:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138219 Elyse: [...] > And I think the person to discover that he was ESG! > all along will be Hermione. > Remember in HBP where Harry calls him evil? And > Hermione says "Evil is a strong word to use" > This indicates that she may still have a reasonable doubt > of Snape's guilt. Maybe she goes off on her own to > find him as she wants to be convinced on his (lack of) guilt. > Then she becomes his ally and Snape feeds information to Harry > through her? > Any takers? houyhnhnm: I like it. Hermione is often the first to get it. She shows more insight into others' motivation than Ron or Harry. She has also practically lived in the library during her six years at Hogwarts, probably knows Madame Pince better than any other student, and so is in a position to put that piece of the puzzle in place :-)heh, heh, my own personal hobby horse and if I'm right Hermione is definately going to be involved in the revelation. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 18:54:07 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:54:07 -0000 Subject: Why Snape did not take Harry to LV WAS: ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138220 > Carodave adds: > Why doesn't Snape take Harry for LV? The only reason I can come up > with is that Snape is actually on the side of good and protecting > Harry. (even though I still believe in ESE!Snape) > > If you believe that Snape is still a DE, then why not take Harry to > LV as a prize? > If you believe that Snape is out for himself, then why not take > Harry to LV anyway? Knowing the prophecy, one of them will kill the > other, leaving Snape with only one to eliminate on his road to > supremacy. Alla: Well, yes, if you believe that Snape is good, the answer is that he was protecting Harry, but if you subscribe to Snape,who is out for himself and in HBP chose Evil path, the answer would be different. I believe that Snape is sincere, when he degrates Harry's skills. he does not believe that Harry is able to defeat Voldie YET, but at the same time Snape knows the complete Prophecy ( that is IMO of course), so he thinks that at one point Harry WILL be ready to kill Voldie. Snape is biting for time, IMO. He thinks it is useless to take Harry to LV yet, because Voldemort would just kill him now and I do think that eventually Snape wants to be the next Dark Lord - here his dream of being widely respected Dark Wizard will come true. :-) Right, so this is why IMO Snape did not take Harry to Voldemort. JMO of course, Alla From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 20 18:58:14 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:58:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The DADA jinx and its victims References: <1124496337.2008.7019.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003901c5a5b9$1ffc7a20$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 138221 Carol wrote: >I just realized that Crouch!Moody is not the teacher Dumbledore hired, >which may be the way around that apparent exception to the rule. >Clearly the real Moody's fall (being placed in his own trunk as the >result of his paranoia backfiring) is to Voldemort's advantage, as is >having Crouch!Moody in his place. I suppose Voldemort didn't care that >Crouch!Moody would be revealed and destroyed by the DADA curse. He >intended simply to use him and discard him. His advantage occurred >through the curse falling on the real Alastor Moody. (Obviously the >explanation isn't perfect and some examples work better than others, >but I think the general pattern of the DADA curse working the will of >Voldemort is clear, and he cares no more about his supporters than his >enemies once they've worked his will.) Given that not all the DADA professors provide Voldemort with a direct advantage, then maybe that's not a necessary part of the jinx (and of course there's a long line before Quirrell that we don't have information on). I'm happy to conclude that the jinx focuses on a particular weakness of the professor in question (which would be reputation in Lockhart's case and ambition in Umbridge's) and uses it to bring about their downfall. >Voldemort's advantage in having Snape as DADA teacher is clear, >whether he's consciously directing the curse or letting it work his >will without direction, which I think is the case. He wants Snape to >kill Dumbledore, which might be why he ordered young Severus to apply >for the job in the first place, though he only told him he was sending >him to Hogwarts as a spy. LV knew the curse would act to his own >advantage and Severus's undoing, and he wouldn't care about the >consequences to his servant once he had "done the deed." Nothing of >the sort happened, of course, because Dumbledore hired Snape as >Potions Master and Voldemort himself was vaporized a mere two months >later. (We don't know what happened to the unfortunate person who was >hired as DADA teacher in his stead.) It also seems unlikely that Dumbledore, having turned Voldemort down, would have hired Snape, especially after the eavesdropper incident, without some pretty convincing proof that he'd turned coat (do we have actual canon that Snape's appointment was _before_ Voldemort's downfall?) hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 15:35:10 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:35:10 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138222 hg: [snip elements of Slughorn-Dumbledore theory; go upthread to read them] > REALLY looking forward to your reply, Auria! And maybe someone else > will have something to add?... Ceridwen: And, where was Fawkes? I would imagine that if Dumbledore was in trouble, Fawkes would rush to his aid. On the left-handed thing, Dumbledore has been working in spite of an injured right hand all year. He could have been using his left, and getting used to it as well. Using his non-dominant hand might indeed decrease his magical reactions, or even his magic if the dominance of the hand plays a part. Like trying to write with the wrong hand. So I'd only add that as a possible. Just me, though. The portrait could be Dumbledore, not *of* Dumbledore. That would be a great place to hide. But, maybe someone else played Dumbledore. Not Slughorn. Someone who can die and then be reborn. I don't know if the bird can be changed into someone else, but if anyone could do it, Dumbledore could. He taught Transfiguration, and is shown during the series, transfiguring different items. And, he's had decades more practice than anyone else we've met in the series, except for that witch who administered his O.W.L.s to him, who is still testing students. If the potion in the cave wasn't a deadly poison, then the sinking down the wall might be Fawkes coming to the end of his adult cycle anyway. Can't vouch for becoming pale, though. And, we've already been informed in the books that a powerful wizard can project his mind into another being. Voldemort has done this twice: once when he inhabited Nagini to attack Arthur, and once at the MoM when he inhabited Harry during his duel with Dumbledore. Harry had to say the words Voldemort put in his mouth, IIRC. So, the scenario goes: During that five minutes, Dumbledore transfigures Faweks, then slips into his mind and guides his actions like controlling a robot. On the tower, that's DD talking through Fawkes again. If there was Legilimency, that would have been the mind of DD, too. I don't think it explains the body being blasted straight off the tower, though it might. I can't see how. And, being in a human form at death, Fawkes would take longer to transform, so he does the flaming phoenix thing when the tomb is sealed. Which would explain the image of the phoenix rising Harry (and perhaps others) witnesses. What it wouldn't explain: 1)Snape being alive. Unless it does count if he *thought* he was killing Dumbledore. Or, as someone else suggested, it might act like a geas, where the assured death takes an ironic twist later on down the road. 2)Fawkes' lament. Though we are never actually shown that it's Fawkes. The song has the power of a phoenix to heal (the spirit, here, maybe this is some of that magical music mentioned in another post?), so it must be a phoenix. But Fawkes might have died, been reborn, sang his own song, then was transfigured again, buried, and burned back to life again. 3)Fawkes would be reborn as a chick, not as a fully-grown phoenix taking flight. But, I'm not up on mythology - when a phoenix finally does die for good (do they ever die for good?) what are the signs? Or, could this be a blending of mythological types, and Fawkes has reached Nirvana? I like theories. Slughorn being Dumbledore, or at least taking part in a deception as he's one of DD's old and dear friends, appeals, and gives yet another reason for his particular part in HBP. He has quite a few roles already. Utilizing his more Slytherin tendencies would make sense. He could even be the one to transfigure Fawkes, as Dumbledore lies near death due to the damage to his hand. Once theories begin, there are so many possibilities! I still cling to *my* baby, that Dumbledore was already dead, and is only temporarily alive due to Harry's double 'rennervate' and his plea. Second favorite possibility, that he was dying already, noticeable evidence in the Tower chapter, and the time had passed where intervention would be possible. But, I like your Slughorn theory, too. Maybe our two babies could play together for a while, at least until book 7 comes out? Ceridwen. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 19:16:36 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:16:36 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138223 hg had written (snipped): The idea that Dumbledore's death was faked hasn't been warmly received on any board, so I've been "in the closet" on this one. Kris: > I change my mind daily of the fate of DD... so don't > feel bad about throwing this idea out... I think it is great! > Some of the things that made me think of DD faking: > > 1) He is not buried in the earth. Very Christ-like (and like Aslan from Chronicles of Narnia) he is laid on a stone table... possibly to be reborn/ressurrected? > > 2) DD directing Harry before school year begins to always keep his invisiblilty cloak with him. I can't help but believe that it is knowing that the time will come that Harry must be an *invisible witness* able to report back the "murder". > > 3) DD stuns Harry on the top of the tower ensuring that he is a witness, as well that he doesn't misinterpret what is being acted out in front of him and interfere.. and mistakenly attack Draco or Snape (whom DD is being very careful to protect). hg: Good points all. The rebirth idea has always made me twitchy, but I, like you, am not ruling anything out. My favorite idea, as I said earlier in this thread, is that Slughorn faked Dumbledore's death. (In that post, I enumerated several stand-out moments that could indicate this.) I also sometimes go for the idea that I should just read it straight, that JK put in SO many indicators that he must have died, because so many readers tried to reason that Sirius was still alive. It sometimes seems it'd be such a blow to so many readers that Dumbledore did fake it, like too much of a surprise. For an intriguing alternate theory, which has a lot of merit, look at post 135604. It's under my poster name, but it's actually my husband, kneazle24 (I left the board open to show him a post and he was in a hurry). The idea is brilliant (that Dumbledore has been taking Felix); it makes a lot of sense across the board, and if it didn't directly interfere with Slughorn faking Dumbledore's death, I'd endorse it wholeheartedly. (As it stands, I'll do it half- heartedly!) As for the cloak, what bothered me was that he instructed Harry to go get it when they met just before the cave scene, when he was supposed to have it on him at all times. And immobilizing him to prevent any "heroics" is pretty suspect, especially when he's so vulnerable. Both of these items could be explained by the faked death scenario or the Felix scenario. In any regard, I think we're supposed to read the end very carefully. Which side of the fence will you be on tomorrow, Kris, or will you still be astride it, like me?! Thanks for your post. hg. From ShailyPatel at alumni.wfu.edu Sat Aug 20 18:17:29 2005 From: ShailyPatel at alumni.wfu.edu (nyx0205) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:17:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <20050819174030.63251.qmail@web60421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138224 You make some excellent points, but I still think that Dumbledore had some master plan, and I'll provide you some evidence, and perhaps you'll humor me enough to tell me what you think. Let's see: 1. Dumbledore once said that death, to the well organized mind, "was the next great adventure. (PS)" When he's cornered by Snape, Dumbledore says, "Please, Severus." I doubt very much that he would be begging for his life. He may be asking to be spared for the sake of Harry and the rest of the wizarding world, but I'll get to that.... 2. I think there's evidence to argue that Dumbledore passes the torch, if you will. When he and Harry are preparing to apparate from the cove back to Hogsmeade after their cave adventure, Harry says to him not to worry--to which Dumbledore replies, "I'm not worried Harry. I am with you." 3. There is further evidence to support Dumbledore's belief that Harry was infact ready to do battle. If he believed Harry to be less than prepared, I doubt he would have allowed Harry to accompany him to the cave in search of the horcrux, or even explained to Harry about horcruxes for that matter (they seem to be VERY taboo in the wizarding world, if someone as open minded as Dumbledore had the subject banned). 4. Dumbledore had to be sure that he was going to die before the prophecy was fulfilled. If not, then how come he (the most powerful wizard in the world) was not 'The Chosen One.' I think knowing that, he left Harry the tools to get the job done. 5. And finally, I think Dumbledore valued his spy within Voldemort's ranks more than his own life. I also think he was trying to save Draco, who as we have witnessed, is not beyond redemption just yet. Better Snape the killer and his place solidified as Voldemort's right hand man, than Draco the killer, and his life destroyed. Furthermore, there is no Death Eater that could question Snape's loyalty now. This may allow him to be privy to certain information otherwise withheld from the others....the locations of the horcruxes perhaps? Perhaps Voldemort would trust him enough to make him protector of the horcruxes that remain? It's a weak case, I know, but it still prompts some questions. Yesterday I was reading Philosopher's Stone, more specifically the chapter that includes Harry's first start of term banquet, and there is a mention that Harry had never seen so many things he liked to eat on one table, and I began to wonder, what IF Dumbledore was the Chess Master, deciding the inertia of Harry's life long before Harry had any idea of Lord Voldemort. What if Dumbledore set the menu for Harry's first start of term feast? "nyx0205" From carodave92 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 19:13:24 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:13:24 -0000 Subject: Why Snape did not take Harry to LV WAS: ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138225 > > Carodave adds: If you believe that Snape is out for himself, then why not > > take Harry to LV anyway? Knowing the prophecy, one of them > > will kill the other, leaving Snape with only one to eliminate > > on his road to supremacy. > Alla: > > Snape is biting for time, IMO. He thinks it is useless to take > Harry to LV yet, because Voldemort would just kill him now and > I do think that eventually Snape wants to be the next Dark Lord > - here his dream of being widely respected Dark Wizard will come > true. :-) > > Right, so this is why IMO Snape did not take Harry to Voldemort. Carodave replies: What I don't understand is why Snape wouldn't take Harry to LV, allowing Harry to be killed? This would remove one of the obstacles on Snape's path to being a respected Dark Wizard (King Dark Wizard?) and also further LV's trust in Snape, allowing him to keep LV slightly off balance and increase the chance that Snape can defeat LV. Right now, Snape (or LV) can defeat Harry. Who knows if that will be true in the future? Your thoughts? Carodave From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 20:29:34 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:29:34 -0000 Subject: Why Snape did not take Harry to LV WAS: ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138226 Alla: Well, yes, if you believe that Snape is good, the answer is that he was protecting Harry, but if you subscribe to Snape,who is out for himself and in HBP chose Evil path, the answer would be different. I believe that Snape is sincere, when he degrates Harry's skills. he does not believe that Harry is able to defeat Voldie YET, but at the same time Snape knows the complete Prophecy ( that is IMO of course), so he thinks that at one point Harry WILL be ready to kill Voldie. Snape is biting for time, IMO. He thinks it is useless to take Harry to LV yet, because Voldemort would just kill him now and I do think that eventually Snape wants to be the next Dark Lord - here his dream of being widely respected Dark Wizard will come true. :-) Right, so this is why IMO Snape did not take Harry to Voldemort. vmonte: I think that Snape did not take Harry to Voldemort because he is going to wait till Harry destroys all the horcruxes, it's less work for him. Once Harry completes this part of the mission he will then go to confront Voldemort. This is where Snape comes back in... BWAHAHAHAHA! Vivian http://www.vmonte.com/HPHome.html From muellem at bc.edu Sat Aug 20 20:33:46 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:33:46 -0000 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "colebiancardi" wrote: > > > Full nasty mode to you, perhaps. > > We've seen Snape be a heck of lot > > more nasty. Was he calling Harry names? > > No, Snape did not call Harry a doodoo head or some other nasty name so > he gets one brownie point for that, but he did murder Dumbledore and I > thing he should be fined one or two brownie points for that. Don't you? > My verdict on Snape *murdering* DD is still out until book 7 comes out. There is too much up in the air. > > why didn't Snape take Harry with them? > > Why would Snape want to do that? And take Harry where? to LV's lair, of course. If Snape believes that Harry will take out LV, why not bring him there? > > > why didn't Snape let the other DE kill him? > > Because Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to protect the life of Harry > Potter until he kills Voldemort. really? Canon, please. > > > Flitwick is a child? Tonks is a child? > > Lupin is a child? Hey, there were some > > adults there - why didn't Snape kill them? > > Snape is evil and Snape is a villain but Snape is not a homicidal > maniac, he does not kill people when it not necessary. It is necessary > to kill Dumbledore (and Voldemort) if he is to be the most powerful > wizard in the world. So, you want to make Snape both ESE & TW. hmmmm..... > > > [outnumbered] 100 to 1? Really? > > Yes, really. > > > I only counted 6 OotP members at the base of the tower > > And about 600 wizards in other parts of the castle they wanted to get > out of after the murder. again, at Hogwarts? The students? The underage wizards who kinda *hid* until the coast was clear? Nope, not buying that. Snape & the DE's could have killed all the OotP member's that were there and caused havoc as they left. colebiancardi From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 20:50:12 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:50:12 +0100 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138228 It could be just me, but is Harry REALLY the only one who can kill Voldemort? What's to stop Snape AKing him from behind? Dumbledore warns Harry not to put too much faith in it, after all. Chris Alternate History: http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 20 20:51:49 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:51:49 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138229 > hg: > Absolutely. Harry would have to be utterly convinced of the > death, so Voldemort would be utterly convinced, and what better > way than to witness it? (As you say, Voldemort might decide to > take a visit to Harry's brain to make sure!) But doesn't this > sound horrible? How could Dumbledore deceive Harry so (or Hagrid, > or anyone else for that matter)? The answer is this: making the > right choice or the easy choice. Dumbledore made the mistake (as > he admits in OOP) of loving Harry more than all the people of the > world, pretty much; loving Harry more than the nameless, faceless > people who would suffer at Voldemort's hands. He's NOT making > that mistake anymore. Yes he loves Harry, but if it came down to > deceiving Harry or sacrificing thousands of people, he'd choose to > deceive Harry. Jen: You know, when you first mentioned the idea Dumbledore might still be alive hg, my first thought was "JKR wouldn't do that!" But after her recent comment about making anvil-size hints, well, she does frequently tell us she is 'ruthless' or 'nasty' or 'evil'! Those could be warnings as much as a teasing, that she isn't trying to please anyone with her story. Not sure if that figures into your theory so much as it casts doubt about how far she would push the boundaries of the hero's journey story. Here are the things that make me waver in my certainty Dumbledore is dead: 1) No body we can see at the funeral. 2) The context you mention above, that we know one of Dumbeldore's beliefs played out in words and actions is that the good of the community is more important than any one individual. Or at least the *emotional* well-being of any one individual. A deception would cause Harry much emotional distress, but we've seen Dumbledore is willing to sacrifice emotional well-being if he feels there's a greater good at work (i.e, Durselys and the blood protection, Sirius at GP). 3) JKR's comment in TIME magazine, July, that when she wrote the WW the way she did, as not overtly better than the world Harry left (except for his relationships), because she was trying to 'subvert the genre' of fantasy. The genre where the wise old mentor always dies?? 4) The ITV interview: Q: "I was wondering, I heard you cried when you killed off Sirius, did you cry at the end of this book." JK Rowling: "I was a bit teary with Sirius, but I was seriously upset at the end of this book." Upset because she killed off Dumbledore, or upset at the deception that might bother quite a few people? She made it so clear she killed Sirius, used those words, "I killed him off" but she has yet to be so blunt about DD's death. ********* Now for the other side of the coin, why I think he's really dead. 1) This is subjective I know, but the impact of Dumbledore's death on Harry and much of the WW, as well as the sequence of the phoenix song, funeral, etc., were among the most poignant scenes JKR has written in the entire series. To go back on that....Well, heck, JKR likens herself a bit to Dumbledore--is she also willing for Harry (and us) to suffer a little emotional pain if she can set right the entire story in Book 7? Evil & ruthless indeed. ;) 2) Her comment in the TLC/MN interview when Emerson says: "The wise old wizard with the beard always dies" and JKR replied: "Well, that's basically what I'm saying, yes." 3) Her comment in the same interview: "Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn't it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot." Not much to go on, is it? I can't prove with canon Dumbledore died. Not with the Draught of Living Death around, no body at the funeral, the context of how DD thinks, the many reasons why a faked death would benefit the Order and Harry. But I do think that was DD in the cave and on the tower, and if his death was faked, it happened another way. Maybe I just need this to be true, because of the really sweet things Dumbledore said and did for Harry in the cave especially...I want those to be real. Jen, realizing she will never be ruthless and probably unsuccessful at Occlumency as well. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 20 21:08:12 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:08:12 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138230 hg wrote: >Snape doesn't necessarily have to know Dumbledore's plan. One > could read it either way. If Snape knows, then he's definitely > committed to Voldemort's downfall; if he doesn't know, then he's been > flushed out by Dumbledore and Slughorn -- outed to the world as a > baddy. Auria writes: Hey there hg! Glad to be aboard the 'DD-faked-death' boat! You make some more good points, although I am more inclined to think that Snape IS in on the plan. The main reason is that Hagrid overheard DD and Snape having an argument over something that Snape didn't want to continue doing anymore (I dont have the quote to hand). This could mean that Snape doesn't want to go through with the plan and continue faking his allegiance to LV. Snape also had the opportunity to allow the other DEs to if not kill then perhaps torture Harry after the tower scene but he convinced them to leave him alone. If he was a true DE surely he would have the evil tendency to at least injure Harry, but he didn't. >hg wrote: > So far, you've pointed out three really rock-solid reasons why > Dumbledore would make the choice: to preserve Snape's vow, to > convince Harry; both of these would ensure that Voldemort believed it > and was lured to Hogwarts (presumably, to look for a Horcrux he'd > left there? or for something he'd really want to use to make a > Horcrux?); and to hunt down Horcruxes unhampered by Ministry tails. I am also open to the second theory that Dumbledore did die but it was a planned death for the reasons you stated above. Again this would tie in with the argument between Snape and DD which Hagrid overheard - maybe Snape didn't want to go ahead with the planned killing of DD. But this theory doesn't quite fit with all the little inconsistencies in DD's character in this book. And I like to believe in happy endings, so DD in hiding would be my preference :- ). I also had the thought that in all the previous books DD has always acted carefully and cautiously when it comes to Harry. So surely taking Harry to the cave, which could be very dangerous as DD stated himself, was taking a huge unnecessary risk? Why did he need Harry with him anyway, as Harry didn't do anything that was unique to his talents? Surely DD could have taken Slughorn or Snape instead? So having Harry there must have another motive. DD probably already knew the horcrux was a fake and it was part of his plan to convince the world and Harry of his final demise. Good point about the five minutes for Harry to get his cloak - I thought of that too. I hadn't thought about DD perhaps using a bezoar however, so thats an excellent theory. I liked all your other pointers too, and will look out for them while I am rereading the book. In particular the absence of Fawkes when DD is in trouble on the tower is particularly strange and would link to the faked death theory perfectly. Anyway, let me know any futher thoughts you may have! Auria. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 21:23:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:23:54 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138231 Chris wrote: It could be just me, but is Harry REALLY the only one who can kill Voldemort? What's to stop Snape AKing him from behind? Dumbledore warns Harry not to put too much faith in it, after all. vmonte: No one can kill Voldemort until the horcruxes are destroyed. And yes, Harry is the only one that can defeat LV since he is the last horcrux, and so must sacrifice himself for the greater good. Just hoping that Ginny comes up with something. Maybe they can transfer Harry's horcrux into Dumbledore's dead body and then reanimate it into an inferi that will reach out and grab Voldemort while simultaneously jumping through the veil--OK, I'm just kidding here. :) Vivian From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 21:26:45 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:26:45 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138232 > >>Del: > I know Fenrir Greyback is a direct metaphor for pedophiles, but > personally it's Slughorn that makes me hugely uneasy sometimes. I > believe that JKR purposely depicted him in a way reminiscent of RL > pedophiles so as to make us be wary of him. > Betsy Hp: I picked up a certain vibe myself, though I didn't connect it with pedophilia. For one, Harry is hardly a young child, nor are the students and former students Slughorn surrounds himself with. However, I certainly saw a bit of courtship in the way Slughorn tried to woo Harry into his club, and bit of hard-to-get coyness in Harry's refusal to attend. Harry enjoys the attention, it seems, and doesn't want to reveal the half-blood Prince as the source of his potion skills because he wants to *keep* that attention. What is very interesting, to me, is the reversal that occurs when Harry goes after the horcrux memory. Suddenly Harry is doing the wooing and it's Slughorn's turn to play coy. (And how interesting that Harry plies Slughorn with drink to get what he wants.) > >>Del: > Don't get me wrong: I am NOT saying that Slughorn IS a pedophile. > That would be pointless and out of place in a HP book. Slughorn is > no more a pedophile than Fenrir Greyback is, or that Lupin has got > AIDS or a RL disability. What I am saying is that JKR crafted a > parallel in my eyes between Slughorn and RL pedophiles, and that I > think she did that to make us be very wary of Slughorn. > Betsy Hp: In her livejournal, Threeoranges connected Slughorn with a possible real life person who "collected" talented young men at Oxford: http://www.livejournal.com/users/threeoranges/142574.html Personally, I think Fenrir is the obvious pedophile parallel. Slughorn is something a bit different. He's certainly a seducer (HBP is *full* of them, but I think that apt for the "Slytherin book") and I can certainly see a case to be made that he has a weakness for handsome and gifted young men. But he doesn't strike me as an attacker on the level of a pedophile. For one, all of his former club members seem quite fond of him (even Snape in his own way). For another, I think Hermione actually *did* enjoy the parties. I think her reluctance to say so was more for Ron's feelings than any lying on her part. I'm sure her head was turned by both the attention and the interesting people she got to meet, but I didn't get the sense that any sort of "bad things" occured. > >>Del: > Some of my questions are: > * Why exactly is Slughorn running away from LV and his DEs? Is he > even really running away from them? Betsy Hp: I think he is really on the run. And I think he's on the run because he knows too much. Specifically about Tom and his horcruxes. I'm sure Slughorn went into hiding as soon as Dumbledore announced Voldemort's return (about a year before Dumbledore hunts him down, I think). > >>Del: > * Is it a coincidence that he so conveniently left his job at > Hogwarts just in time for Snape to replace him? Did he do it for > himself as he pretends, or for DD, or for LV, or because he was > threatened or blackmailed, or for yet another reason? Betsy Hp: I'm leery of coincidences, especially in mystery books (one of JKR's many genres). So I think Slughorn stepped aside specifically to give Snape a place at the school and at Dumbledore's urging. Slughorn seems fond of Snape and I think he'd be just as eager for young!Snape to slip from Voldemort's grasp as Dumbledore was. I don't think Voldemort had anything to do with it because I think Voldemort wanted Snape to take the DADA position. (I also seriously doubt Slughorn is at all sympathetic to Voldemort's cause.) > >>Del: > * Is it a coincidence that DD found him to offer him the job? Or > did Slughorn let DD find him? Betsy Hp: No coincidence. Dumbledore needed Slughorn, so Dumbledore found him. While Slughorn *was* in hiding, I doubt many folks could hide from Dumbledore for very long if he really wanted to find them. (He knew where vapor!Mort was for all those years, didn't he?) > >>Del: > * Why does he keep bringing Lily up in front of Harry, while > *never* mentioning that she happened to be in the same class as > Snape? Betsy Hp: Slughorn isn't an idiot. He's trying to get on Harry's good side so he constantly talks about how much he liked Harry's beloved mother. (I'm quite sure Slughorn *did* like her quite a bit.) Snape isn't a good way in with Harry, and while I'm not sure that Slughorn knew the level of animosity between the two, why bring up Snape when there was Lily to praise? (Especially if praise of Snape might infringe upon praise of Lily.) > >>Del: > And why were James and Sirius apparently *not* among his > favourites? They were both very smart and well-related... Betsy Hp: I'm betting Sirius was courted and refused to go (Slytherin equals his horrible family after all). And I'm betting James wasn't invited. He wasn't *that* well related. (Has anyone talked about the amazing Potter line?) And I'm not sure he shined *that* well academically (not Hermione's level). Probably too busy pranking and such. Not in Slughorn's taste, I think. > >>Del: > * And what about the HBP book...? Betsy Hp: This I do put down to coincidence. I don't think Slughorn knew a thing about it. He honestly seemed to think Harry had a genuine talent inherited from his mother. (The irony might be that Lily was helped out by Snape during potions and so, in a sense, Harry *did* have some of her skill. But that's just a guess.) > >>Del: > There's also the matter of the highly dangerous potions that he > presented to his students at the beginning of the year. > Betsy Hp: Ahh, but these are NEWT students. I'm sure by seventh year they'd have all been expected to *make* some of those potions. At this level they should be expected to work with dangerous stuff. And IIRC, Slughorn speaks of the dangers inherit in the various potions. I didn't see anything wrong or unethical in his presentation here. > >>Del: > And of course there's the matter of the "dirty little secret" that > Slughorn so vehemently denied. How come he even *knew* about > horcruxes? Why did he accept to discuss them with a student? Betsy Hp: Slughorn is a talented and well-learned professor. I'm not surprised at all that he knew what a horcrux was. (Dumbledore does, after all.) In this particular memory I think Tom seduced Slughorn. (Not literally, of course.) I think Tom had been playing people from the moment he came to Hogwarts. Dumbledore even spoke about how the entire staff was charmed by him. The orphanage was weary of him because he'd grown up with them and so they'd seen him exposed, as it were. But Tom came to Hogwarts with a mask in place and I think he used Slughorn's weaknesses against him to get the information he desired. > >>Del: > Why did he keep that discussion a secret for so long? Betsy Hp: Because he was ashamed. Slughorn got played and in doing so he inadvertantly gave Tom the information he needed to become Lord Voldemort. I'm sure that realization has haunted him and that's why he's been so reluctant to share that information with anybody. What I wonder is how Dumbledore knew Slughorn was hiding something. Did Slughorn exhibit a strange amount of guilt whenever Voldemort was spoken of? Something *must* have slipped for Dumbledore to think of looking to Slughorn for the information, and I wonder what that slip was. > >>Del: > > And if he couldn't confess that particular mistake to DD, how can > we be sure that he's not hiding some other dirty little secrets? > Betsy Hp: Honestly, I don't think Slughorn's all that great of a secret keeper. It's not that Dumbledore didn't know Slughorn had the information he needed, it's that Slughorn refused to give Dumbledore the details. That's another reason I think the pedophile charge doesn't suit Slughorn. He didn't keep his interest in Harry at all a secret (something I'd imagine a pedophile would really need to do). He was very obvious about who he liked, he was very obvious about when his parties would occur, and I'm sure if Dumbledore had wanted to attend he'd have been gladly welcomed (more prestige for the party). Slughorn *is* an elitist and certainly a hedonist, but I don't think he's a pedophile. Betsy Hp From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sat Aug 20 21:34:59 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:34:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The One who Can defeat the Dark lord Message-ID: <6b.4bc3e105.3038fc03@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138233 In a message dated 8/20/2005 4:51:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com writes: It could be just me, but is Harry REALLY the only one who can kill Voldemort? If he isn't then what would be the point of the series? Harry is more talented than he gives himself credit for, and certainly more talented than adults have given him credit for in the last. My family just finished listening to COS last night. Since reading Books 5 and 6 I really do see COS with new eyes. Much as I love the book it always annoyed me that none of the adults could figure that mystery out, and that it was left to three 12 year old kids. But looking at the bigger picture I now see that Harry figures out where the Chamber is because he's the only one who can. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Aug 20 21:57:29 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:57:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4307A749.2050700@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138234 eggplant107 wrote: > juli17 at a... wrote: > > >>I am still convinced that we really >>do not know if Snape murdered Dumbledore. > > > If you were a novelist and you wanted one of your characters to get > murdered what more could you have done than what JKR did in HBP to > convince readers that the character has indeed been murdered? > > Eggplant > Let ESE!Snape gloat. "You silly old man, you've thought you have me in your pocket all these years?" That would be the most convincing feature, and the complete absence of it is conspicuous. Especially as we have seen Snape with someone he hates and wants to see dead (Sirius in PoA) and Snape sure took his time talking. Irene From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Aug 20 22:19:13 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:19:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4307AC61.7030400@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138235 delwynmarch wrote: > > So anytime I run accross such a Slughorn scene, I feel uneasy. I know > that my personal past history of abuse is for a lot in this unease, > but what I'm wondering is whether JKR was really *not* counting on > such a reaction? JKR is not stupid, and she's not naive or > inexperienced either. I am pretty sure that she knew exactly what she > was doing with Slughorn (even the name...), and that she *meant* for > this behaviour of Slughorn's to be a red flag for her readers. > Ouch, I'd hope not. It's a tradition well described in boarding-school stories - teachers often have a group of favourites whom they invite for tea or weekend parties. It does not have to be sinister, I'm not at all sure JKR meant for it to bring sinister connotations. People keep saying "he is elitist" as if it was an universally acknowledged bad thing. It is not. As long as his choices are based on talent and knowledge, not just on connections and wealth, it's OK with me. Irene From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 20 22:39:30 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:39:30 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: <6b.4bc3e105.3038fc03@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138236 > In a message dated 8/20/2005 4:51:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > christopher_g_nuttall at h... writes: > > It could be just me, but is Harry REALLY the only one who can kill Voldemort? Auria writes: I read in one of the interviews with JKR that Harry is somehow linked to LV, but of course she didn't elaborate. Exactly what that link is will be revealed in the final book and it could well be that Harry's scar is a horcrux, or it could be something else entirely. But somehow Harry is the only one destined to defeat LV (as in the prophesy). Whether he survives it, however, is anyone's guess. > Roxanne wrote: > If he isn't then what would be the point of the series? > Since reading Books 5 > and 6 I really do see COS with new eyes. Much as I love the book it always > annoyed me that none of the adults could figure that mystery out, and that it > was left to three 12 year old kids. But looking at the bigger picture I now > see that Harry figures out where the Chamber is because he's the only one who > can. > > Roxanne Auria writes: I just want to add that they were helped in locating the Chamber of Secrets by Moaning Murtle, who I don't think any of the teachers had conversed with since her death so they would not have had the information she gave to Harry and Ron. Also, (and I don't know if this was a factor too) Harry is the only Hogwarts student to our knowledge that can speak parseltongue. This may also have played a part in that Harry could 'hear' the basilisk moving through Hogwarts and so had more of an idea how it got around. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 22:57:53 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050820225753.91391.qmail@web60413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138237 --- nyx0205 wrote: > You make some excellent points, but I still think > that Dumbledore > had some master plan, and I'll provide you some > evidence, and > perhaps you'll humor me enough to tell me what you > think. > > Let's see: > > 1. Dumbledore once said that death, to the well > organized > mind, "was the next great adventure. (PS)" When > he's cornered by > Snape, Dumbledore says, "Please, Severus." I doubt > very much that > he would be begging for his life. He may be asking > to be spared for > the sake of Harry and the rest of the wizarding > world, but I'll get > to that.... Larry Now: In my original post, 138106, I am explicit that Dumbledore is not begging for his life. He is begging for the sake of Harry, for whom he would do anything, even beg. As for Dumbledore's aside that to the well organized mind death is but the next great adventure; I take this as his utter fearlessness in the face of the unknown. In other words, why would an organized mind fear the inevitable? Only the mind in chaos would attempt to control what is ultimately out of our control. Didn't Hagred say GOF Am. ed. P. 719 "What't comin' will come, an' we'll meet it when it does." > 2. I think there's evidence to argue that > Dumbledore passes the > torch, if you will. When he and Harry are preparing > to apparate > from the cove back to Hogsmeade after their cave > adventure, Harry > says to him not to worry--to which Dumbledore > replies, "I'm not > worried Harry. I am with you." Larry now: There is no evidence of any torch passing, or even that there is a torch to pass. The whole quote reads, HBP Am. ed. P. 578 "I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water, "I am with you." It seems that in spite of the potion, in spite of the freezing water, being in Harry's presence as well as in physical contact with Harry brings strength to Dumbledore's voice, and by implication, Dumbledore himself. How could this be? Well, Harry shows absolutely no signs of being the wand-waving or spell casting phenom that Dumbledore is. And he shows no signs that he will become this powerful in the conventional sense. OOTP Am. ed. P.711 "...not if Dumbledore doesn't want to be found. I should know....Examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he did N.E.W.T.s... Did things with a wand I'd never seen before..." There is not even a hint that Harry is there, or ever going to get there. What Harry has, the power the Dark Lord knows not, is Love. A power that exists in Harry at his core, and is so pure and powerful that it radiates like the sun, creating an aura that can strengthen and support a terribly weakened and possibly dying Dumbledore. > 3. There is further evidence to support Dumbledore's > belief that > Harry was infact ready to do battle. If he believed > Harry to be > less than prepared, I doubt he would have allowed > Harry to accompany > him to the cave in search of the horcrux, or even > explained to Harry > about horcruxes for that matter (they seem to be > VERY taboo in the > wizarding world, if someone as open minded as > Dumbledore had the > subject banned). Larry now: Dumbledore could not have reached the horcrux alone, and who better to accompany him than Harry. After all, he gave his word to Harry, did he not? And how exactly is Harry ready? He could not have breached the cave, find or raise the boat, let alone fend off the inferi. Harry has love, but he has not learned to harness or use it. This is why Dumbledore begged, this is what was left undone. Dumbledore died in despair, his task undone. Harry desperately needs his friends, they must stand in as proxy for Dumbledore. For only with them will he be able to fulfill his quest. > 4. Dumbledore had to be sure that he was going to > die before the > prophecy was fulfilled. If not, then how come he > (the most powerful > wizard in the world) was not 'The Chosen One.' I > think knowing Larry now: See above. It is not conventional wizarding power that will defeat Voldemort, he is far beyond this, as we have seen and Dumbledore knew. There is something about the Love within Harry that makes him the Chosen One. Yes Dumbledore had love, but there is something about the Love within Harry that is quantitatively different. It may be the source or the purity or some other unknown factor, but it is different. > 5. And finally, I think Dumbledore valued his spy > within > Voldemort's ranks more than his own life. I also > think he was > trying to save Draco, who as we have witnessed, is > not beyond > redemption just yet. Better Snape the killer and > his place > solidified as Voldemort's right hand man, than Draco > the killer, and > his life destroyed. Furthermore, there is no Death > Eater that could > question Snape's loyalty now. This may allow him to > be privy to > certain information otherwise withheld from the > others....the > locations of the horcruxes perhaps? Perhaps > Voldemort would trust > him enough to make him protector of the horcruxes > that remain? It's > a weak case, I know, but it still prompts some > questions. > > Yesterday I was reading Philosopher's Stone, more > specifically the > chapter that includes Harry's first start of term > banquet, and there > is a mention that Harry had never seen so many > things he liked to > eat on one table, and I began to wonder, what IF > Dumbledore was the > Chess Master, deciding the inertia of Harry's life > long before Harry > had any idea of Lord Voldemort. What if Dumbledore > set the menu for > Harry's first start of term feast? > > "nyx0205" Larry now: Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a life unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging or destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I cannot understand how we can have gotten to know Dumbledore as we have and believe for a second that he would sacrifice a human soul for any reason. Let alone for so craven a thing as the placement of a spy. Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no one, there is no inner circle. Voldemort is the only chess master here, it is hisutterly ruthless willingness to sacrifice any one or anything to get what he wants that marks him as the Dark Lord. For Dumbledore to sacrifice a soul, any soul, would be to have him use the means of the enemy., putting him on the road to becoming the enemy. Remember, it is our choices that makes us who we are. And if we choose to act as the Dark Lord, we will become as the Dark Lord. A choice Dumbledore would never make, and a path he would never follow. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 20 23:00:27 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:00:27 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138238 vmonte: No one can kill Voldemort until the horcruxes are destroyed. And yes, Harry is the only one that can defeat LV since he is the last horcrux, and so must sacrifice himself for the greater good. Just hoping that Ginny comes up with something. Sorry, just a bit confused as to why Voldemort would try to kill Harry if he's a horcrux...? From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 20 23:27:33 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:27:33 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "strawberryshaunie" wrote: > vmonte: > No one can kill Voldemort until the horcruxes are destroyed. And yes, > Harry is the only one that can defeat LV since he is the last > horcrux, > and so must sacrifice himself for the greater good. Just hoping that > Ginny comes up with something. > > Sorry, just a bit confused as to why Voldemort would try to kill > Harry > if he's a horcrux...? Auria writes: Yes, exactly! I have trouble with the idea of Harry being a horcrux. Personally I don't think so - it would not make sense. I toyed with the idea of Harry's scar being a horcrux but then realised its not possible because the scar was a result of the maternal love protecting Harry from harm and defeating LV by backfiring his curse. So how could Harry have ever become a horcrux? It doesn't logically follow. So, that leaves the question as to why Harry is the one prophesised to defeat LV? JKR hinted at the link between Harry and LV in one of her interviews but of course didn't elaborate as this is the heart of the story and yet to be revealed until the final book. Can't comment any further as to what it might be - I'm rereading HBP at the mo, so something else may click..... From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 20 23:27:34 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:27:34 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "strawberryshaunie" wrote: > vmonte: > No one can kill Voldemort until the horcruxes are destroyed. And yes, > Harry is the only one that can defeat LV since he is the last > horcrux, > and so must sacrifice himself for the greater good. Just hoping that > Ginny comes up with something. > > Sorry, just a bit confused as to why Voldemort would try to kill > Harry > if he's a horcrux...? Auria writes: Yes, exactly! I have trouble with the idea of Harry being a horcrux. Personally I don't think so - it would not make sense. I toyed with the idea of Harry's scar being a horcrux but then realised its not possible because the scar was a result of the maternal love protecting Harry from harm and defeating LV by backfiring his curse. So how could Harry have ever become a horcrux? It doesn't logically follow. So, that leaves the question as to why Harry is the one prophesised to defeat LV? JKR hinted at the link between Harry and LV in one of her interviews but of course didn't elaborate as this is the heart of the story and yet to be revealed until the final book. Can't comment any further as to what it might be - I'm rereading HBP at the mo, so something else may click..... From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 23:49:32 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:49:32 -0000 Subject: Why Snape did not take Harry to LV WAS: ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Alla: > > Well, yes, if you believe that Snape is good, the answer is that he > was protecting Harry, but if you subscribe to Snape,who is out for > himself and in HBP chose Evil path, the answer would be different. > > I believe that Snape is sincere, when he degrates Harry's skills. he > does not believe that Harry is able to defeat Voldie YET, but at the > same time Snape knows the complete Prophecy ( that is IMO of course), > so he thinks that at one point Harry WILL be ready to kill Voldie. > > Snape is biting for time, IMO. He thinks it is useless to take Harry > to LV yet, because Voldemort would just kill him now and I do think > that eventually Snape wants to be the next Dark Lord - here his > dream > of being widely respected Dark Wizard will come true. :-) > > Right, so this is why IMO Snape did not take Harry to Voldemort. > > vmonte: > I think that Snape did not take Harry to Voldemort because he is > going to wait till Harry destroys all the horcruxes, it's less work > for him. > > Once Harry completes this part of the mission he will then go to > confront Voldemort. This is where Snape comes back in... > BWAHAHAHAHA! > > Vivian > http://www.vmonte.com/HPHome.html Sue here: The problem with coming in at this late point in a thread is that you miss the original theory and a lot of the other comments, so please forgive me, all, if I've missed something vital here. Er - at what point in this book or any of the others does it suggest that Snape wants domination of the WW? Have I missed something? :-) (Puzzled grin) Snape is a bully to the kids, yes. He seems to get on okay with the rest of the staff, though in this last book they express doubts (but only near the end, after he's gone). In the past he's been a team player on staff, e.g. in CoS, but mostly seems to be pretty much a loner. If he was a Muggle, he'd be working in a chemistry lab somewhere, doing research and being rude to anyone who bothered him, going home to his boring flat and maybe a cat, and cooking pasta for one before bedtime. Or he'd be the university head of faculty whom staff and students avoided unless absolutely necessary. I don't think he has what it takes to be head honcho on a large scale and he's bright enough to know this. Voldemort was what he was right from the beginning, as we see in HBP. IMO, it's just a bit late for Snape to be going for world domination, if that's what he wanted. As for the horcruxes, he doesn't know Harry's plan, does he? He didn't even know Draco was going to bring in the DEs that night, any more than DD did. So he's had no time to plan anything, IMO. This is not, BTW, a reply to this post specifically, but to the thread in general. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 22:40:39 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:40:39 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138242 First off, Betsy, it seems that even though I did my best to dispel that possible misunderstanding, you still did misunderstand me :-) I was trying to convey that Slughorn was written AS a pedophile, in order to alert us to some possible dark secret about him. I specifically said that I don't think that Slughorn IS a pedophile, because this would be completely out of place in HP. But I think he might be AS a pedophile, seducing young victims in order to get something out of them, something not "normal" and hidden. Betsy Hp wrote: "I picked up a certain vibe myself, though I didn't connect it with pedophilia. For one, Harry is hardly a young child, nor are the students and former students Slughorn surrounds himself with." Del replies: We don't know at what age Slughorn starts courting his students. It seems that only the older students get invited at his parties, but that doesn't mean that Slughorn doesn't build relationships with younger students too. Betsy Hp wrote: "In her livejournal, Threeoranges connected Slughorn with a possible real life person who "collected" talented young men at Oxford:" Del replies: Interestingly enough, that person was gay, and being gay was an advantage to be admitted in his club. So I doubt that person had only platonic relationships with all of his favourites. Betsy Hp wrote: "Personally, I think Fenrir is the obvious pedophile parallel. Slughorn is something a bit different. " Del replies: Greyback is the serial sexual predator, who attacks kids he barely knows only once and often kills them. He's the stranger in the night who takes advantage of the little girl walking home alone or the little boy whose window has been left open for the night. I see Slughorn as the long-time pedophile, the one who shares the life of his victims, who has a public positive role in their lives (parent, teacher, family friend, coach, etc...), and who takes advantage of the trust the kids have come to put in him to slowly get them where he wants them. As you said, he is a seducer, not an attacker. It's 2 different types, but both are dangerous. Betsy Hp wrote: "For one, all of his former club members seem quite fond of him (even Snape in his own way)." Del replies: That's a surprising statement for me, because I never particularly got that impression. Could you expand on it a bit, please? Moreover, that doesn't mean anything where pedophilic seducers are concerned. Most of their victims usually enjoy their company to some degree. Betsy Hp wrote: "I didn't get the sense that any sort of "bad things" occured." Del replies: Well, the problem is that I don't know *what kind* of bad things are supposed to be happening :-) As I said, I don't believe that Slughorn is a pedophile per se, I believe he's a metaphor for a pedophile. I believe that JKR wants to warn us that his interest in people is not completely healthy, that there's something hidden somewhere. And because this is the Potterverse, I would think that this something would be related to magic, not to sex. Betsy Hp: "Slughorn seems fond of Snape and I think he'd be just as eager for young!Snape to slip from Voldemort's grasp as Dumbledore was." Del replies: That would imply that Slughorn knew about Snape being a DE. But we still don't know who knew that and who didn't. It doesn't seem to have been widely known. Betsy Hp wrote: "I don't think Voldemort had anything to do with it because I think Voldemort wanted Snape to take the DADA position." Del replies: Yes, but apparently Snape failed to do that when he was found eavesdropping on Trelawney. So it is possible that DD found someone else for the DADA job before LV sent Snape back to DD. Moreover, I'm not convinced that LV would want to send his spy to work at a job that he knew was cursed. LV had no way of knowing how much longer the war would last, so why would he risk losing his spy after only one year of spying? Betsy Hp wrote: "Slughorn isn't an idiot." Del replies: I'm not so sure about that. If Slughorn is not an idiot, how can he believe that Harry is a natural at Potions when he knows that: 1) Harry did not get an O at his Potions OWL, 2) Harry was never excellent under Snape? Moreover, when Slughorn becomes slightly inebriated at the Christmas party, he *does* start comparing Harry and Snape. Not a smart move at all. Betsy Hp wrote: "And I'm betting James wasn't invited. He wasn't *that* well related. (Has anyone talked about the amazing Potter line?) And I'm not sure he shined *that* well academically (not Hermione's level). Probably too busy pranking and such. Not in Slughorn's taste, I think." Del replies: I disagree. James was a pureblood, his parents were rich, he was a Quidditch star, he was a ringleader, he was extremely popular, he was extremely smart, he became Head Boy, and so forth and so on. If anyone should have been invited into the Slug Club, it was James Potter IMO. But either he wasn't, or he refused. In either case, my question is: why? And no, I don't think that the fact that Slughorn was Head of Slytherin was a good enough reason, neither for Sirius nor for James. OTOH, if Malfoy's gang and Snape were members of the Slug Club, then I guess that could explain why James and Sirius refused to join it. But I'd love to have a confirmation that this was indeed the reason. Betsy Hp wrote: "Slughorn is a talented and well-learned professor. I'm not surprised at all that he knew what a horcrux was. (Dumbledore does, after all.)" Del replies: I personally wouldn't put Slughorn on the level of DD. And in both their cases, I do wonder *how* they got to learn about horcruxes. This subject isn't discussed in any of the Hogwarts library books, and I doubt it is a subject that wizards discuss casually. IMO, it is a subject that has to be *researched*: look for the people who could know about it, get the info from them, and so on. We know that DD knew a lot of Dark Magic, even if he chose not to use it. But then, DD was the vanquisher of Grindelwald, so it makes sense that he would have studied the Dark Arts. But why would Slughorn have studied them too? He was just a Hogwarts teacher, it's very obvious that he was never a fighter and that he always tried to remain in his comfort zone. So how did he get to learn about horcruxes? Betsy Hp wrote: "Because he was ashamed. Slughorn got played and in doing so he inadvertantly gave Tom the information he needed to become Lord Voldemort. I'm sure that realization has haunted him and that's why he's been so reluctant to share that information with anybody." Del replies: Do you realise the level of moral cowardice that this scenario would necessitate?? Lupin got pounded pretty harshly by some readers for forgetting to mention for a year that Sirius was an Animagus, but Slughorn forgot to mention *for 50 years* that LV had shown an interest in horcruxes!? That's criminal withholding of crucial information, that's what it is! Betsy Hp wrote: "What I wonder is how Dumbledore knew Slughorn was hiding something. Did Slughorn exhibit a strange amount of guilt whenever Voldemort was spoken of? Something *must* have slipped for Dumbledore to think of looking to Slughorn for the information, and I wonder what that slip was." Del replies: Legilimency? Betsy Hp wrote: "Honestly, I don't think Slughorn's all that great of a secret keeper. It's not that Dumbledore didn't know Slughorn had the information he needed, it's that Slughorn refused to give Dumbledore the details." Del replies: Slughorn kept it a secret for 50 years that LV was once Tom Riddle, and only one of the two greatest Legilimenses alive seems to have discovered that he once told LV about horcruxes. I'd say he's good at keeping secrets indeed. Betsy Hp wrote: "That's another reason I think the pedophile charge doesn't suit Slughorn. He didn't keep his interest in Harry at all a secret (something I'd imagine a pedophile would really need to do). He was very obvious about who he liked, he was very obvious about when his parties would occur, and I'm sure if Dumbledore had wanted to attend he'd have been gladly welcomed (more prestige for the party). Slughorn *is* an elitist and certainly a hedonist, but I don't think he's a pedophile." Del replies: Two things. 1) RL seducing pedophiles are often pretty obvious in their liking of their victims. The teacher's pet, the coach's favourite, the favourite niece or grandson, all those are completely in-the-face and yet nobody ever suspects anything, because all the clues point to the adult truly liking or loving the kid. In fact, this very public display of preference is an integral part of the seducing maneuver: it makes the kid feel special and appreciated, which in turn makes him willing to return the adult's "affection". 2) I did say that Slughorn is not a pedophile. I said that JKR wrote him AS a possible pedophile, to raise suspicion IMO. I think she's trying to say: "Caution! Slughorn's liking of some students is not as innocent as it looks, it's hiding something darker, some kind of Dark Magic or something." Del From ryokas at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 01:01:37 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:01:37 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Nuttall" wrote: > It could be just me, but is Harry REALLY the only one who can kill Voldemort? What's to stop Snape AKing him from behind? Dumbledore warns Harry not to put too much faith in it, after all. > > Chris Until the latest book I was convinced that a prophecy is an accurate sneak peek of the future. Not an obligation or a magical forcing or anything, but a kind of time travel for the inner eye that sees how things are going to turn out in the end. Those involved are free to act as they like, but whatever they choose will be the path that brings about the prophecy. In fact if those who hear the thing set themselves to avoiding it, they'll trigger the good ol' irony of causing what you're trying to prevent. Then came HBP and following prophecies is now optional. I have yet to adjust my perceptions about what makes them work at all. It appears that the prophecy in question is one of the working ones, which could mean that it works just like described above, but had Harry and Voldie chosen differently it'd have been worth squat. Also in question is how prophesying actually works, but an intuitive level probably is enough. - Kizor PS. All the other, smarter responses weren't there by the time I started writing. PPS. 'Alien space bats'? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 01:13:55 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:13:55 -0000 Subject: Why Snape did not take Harry to LV WAS: ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138244 > Carodave replies: > What I don't understand is why Snape wouldn't take Harry to LV, > allowing Harry to be killed? This would remove one of the obstacles > on Snape's path to being a respected Dark Wizard (King Dark Wizard?) > and also further LV's trust in Snape, allowing him to keep LV > slightly off balance and increase the chance that Snape can defeat > LV. Right now, Snape (or LV) can defeat Harry. Who knows if that > will be true in the future? Your thoughts? > Alla: Oh, we are in the realm of speculation here of course, but I think that while Snape IS sure that he can defeat Harry now or later, he is NOT sure that he can defeat Voldemort, if Voldemort indeed takes out Harry now. Remember how Snape speaks of Dark Lord during Occlumency? At the moment I don't think that Snape is scared of Harry, but I definitely think that he is scared of Voldemort. So, my answer to the question why Snape does not give Harry as dessert for Voldie to eat up is because Snape wants Voldie dead by Harry's hand. > Vmonte: > I think that Snape did not take Harry to Voldemort because he is > going to wait till Harry destroys all the horcruxes, it's less work > for him. > > Once Harry completes this part of the mission he will then go to > confront Voldemort. This is where Snape comes back in... > BWAHAHAHAHA! Alla: LOL! Vivian, your answer is even simpler and therefore more elegant than mine. Indeed Snape may not even need to wait till final confrontation between Harry and Voldie, hoping that Harry would be the winner and then kill him. He may just wait till Harry destroys Horcruxes and if he is arrogant enough, he would try to take out Voldie first. Seriously though, I am not sure, as I said above I think Snape IS scared Voldemort and therefore may be happy to leave him to Harry to deal with. I also cannot decide whether Snape knows about horcruxes in the first place, because I don't know whether Dumbledore fully informed Snape about his mission or just about the curse which was placed on the ring in order for Snape to heal him. > > Alla wrote earlier: > >[...] > > I subscribe to Dan's theory that Snape did not kill Harry because > > he knows Prophecy in its entirety and wants Harry to kill Voldie and > > then take Voldie's palce by eliminating Harry. > > houyhnhnm: > > "There are only two people in the whole world who know the full > contents of the prophecy made about you and Lord Voldemort, and they > are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed." (HBP, AE, p. 78) Alla: Well, yes. That is what Dumbledore THINKS. Since I believe that he had been wrong many times and that his trust in Snape could be misplaced, I think that Snape may have : a) simply figured out the second part of the prophecy; b) learned it from somebody else ( I like Dan's speculation about Slughorn spilling the beans). Is it speculative? Sure it is. But I believe it makes sense in light of Snape's behaviour throuout the book > > Alla: > >[...] > > It WAS painful, no? I think you are downplaying it, when you are > > saying it was an equivalent of "bitch slup", but again JMO. > > houyhnhnm: > > "We're going to the hospital wing," said Ginny. > "I'm not hurt," said Harry. (HBP, AE, p. 612). Alla: "I am all right,", he told them. "Just tired" - GoF, paperback, p.700 Harry says it very soon after Graveyard,when it is clear for the reader that he is FAR from being all right, IMO. I think Harry has a tendency to downplay his injuries. But I am definitely NOT saying that he was badly hurt. I just said that he was HURT. "As Harry raised himself into a sitting position, his head still swimming from its last contact with the ground..." - HBP, p.605 So, IMO, at the very least Harry has a concussion, but when Ginny offers to go to Hospital Wing he is just preoccupied with the matters which to him are more important than his health. My main point was that Snape does not hesitate to inflict pain on Harry when it does not conflict with his goals. IMO, Harry being hurt too badly conflicted with Snape goals at the end of HBP, but Harry being hurt just a bit would be OK, because it would show Harry that Snape CAN hurt him if he wants to. Just my opinion of course, Alla From ragingjess at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 22:27:42 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (jessicabathurst) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:27:42 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: <6b.4bc3e105.3038fc03@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138245 Christopher_g_nuttall at h... writes: > > It could be just me, but is Harry REALLY the only one who can kill > Voldemort? > RoxyElliot at a... wrote: > If he isn't then what would be the point of the series? Good point. I think here there's a clear break between the needs of the story and the possibilities of the prophecy. It's possible to read "the one with the power to kill the Dark Lord approaches" as either "the ONLY one" or "the one who approaches, but there are others," but it's most likely that the prophecy is exclusive. Jessica From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Sat Aug 20 22:52:32 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:52:32 +0200 Subject: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4307B430.9060704@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138246 >Alla: > >Umm, I thought that Snape was very nasty to Harry during all five >years, but that is just me. > > > Having re-read the first four books and halfway through the fifth; I have to say that (I think Snape is on DD side), considering that he's supposed to be undercover, what he's doing is not as bad as it might seem. He has singled out HP of course, but many times he gives him detention or so for a reason, vague reasons sometimes, but still. It just becomes clear in the fifth book especially, when he's compared to Umbridge, who's just evil beyond repair. One thing I think is out of the picture of a Snape on DD side, is that he is not that interested in Harry becoming an Auror or not. As for example McGonagall. But that could just be a minor thing. Wouldn't it be fun to read the Diaries of Snape after the 7th book is released? Of course keeping a diary might not be very Snapeish, but still. /Fabian From ellcam at cox.net Sun Aug 21 01:23:37 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:23:37 -0400 Subject: Tom Riddle Goes Home References: Message-ID: <003801c5a5ee$f540c7b0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138247 Carodave writes: When Tom Riddle first visits the Gaunt house, he meets Uncle Morfin for the first time. He enters the house, and immediately begins to speak to Morfin...in Parseltongue. How does he know to do this? Perhaps it was an automatic thing that happened, much like Harry speaking to the snake in SS or in CofS. Maybe Riddle's relatives were so snaky that it was a natural reaction. Rachel From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 21 01:55:50 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:55:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4307DF26.2020306@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138248 strawberryshaunie wrote: > vmonte: > No one can kill Voldemort until the horcruxes are destroyed. And yes, > Harry is the only one that can defeat LV since he is the last > horcrux, > and so must sacrifice himself for the greater good. Just hoping that > Ginny comes up with something. Vmonte Strawberry > Sorry, just a bit confused as to why Voldemort would try to kill > Harry > if he's a horcrux...? Strawberry Kathy writes: How would Voldemort know? Even he said that he did not know what happened. The reflected curse blew him clean out of existence, leaving only a somewhat confused and befuddled piece of soul. I wonder if he might be wondering how that connection with Harry was made. What will he do if he suspects. Perhaps that is why the instructions to the DE are to leave Harry for Lord Voldemort. KJ From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 02:14:59 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:14:59 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) In-Reply-To: <4307B430.9060704@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138249 Fabian: > One thing I think is out of the picture of a Snape on DD side, is > that he is not that interested in Harry becoming an Auror or not. As > for example McGonagall. But that could just be a minor thing. > Valky replies: Fabian, you *do* bring up the most intriguing things.. ;D I think there just might be something in that you know. Because it's a strange irony. Snape on the one hand seems quite intent in making Harry fully aware that learning stealth magic and other auror skills should be his priority, and yet he sneers at Harry's choice to consider these subjects for his NEWT levels. It's odd. Furthermore Snape is openly derisive regarding Harry's potential as a stealth Wizard. I'd just like to see what these mismatched signs add up to. During the Occlumency lessons Snape makes his long discourse about weakness and easy prey for the Dark Lord. Then he says Harry's is not important enough anyway, so he ought to get over himself, *then* he calls Harry sloppy and lazy, *and* I noted before, he gets even more angry at Harry for not repeating his Occlumency defense (which coincided with his memory of defending Sirius) and finally in HBP Snape is still making noises about Harry's incompetence and his [Ha!] intention to become an Auror, all while secretly (and obviously to me), *studying him* internally defending Sirius' memory, *then* Snapes final words to Harry as he runs out of the castle wind back to the same old ground, You can't beat me without stealth, No Unforgivables for you.. Okay. It's a weird complex equation. JKR says she isn't good at maths and I *believed* her. LOL What are some reasons that Harry being an Auror is a joke to Snape: The first thing is that Snape thinks he's quite mediocre. Or at least says he still thinks so.. because for some reason he's interested in Harry's mind in HBP - Sevvie doesn't take interest in mediocre things. I just don't buy that it's about Harry being mediocre, but I also can't buy that Snape has realised this interesting thing he found in Harry is a better power or more important that stealth wizardry because at the end of HBP he's still preaching at Harry how stupid he is for not making that his priority. Oh it's a strange little can of worms this one.. So heres a few explanations. 1. Snape is just plain scatterbrained, he can't decide what he thinks from one moment to the next.. nah that just can't be it, how could he make a good Occlumens if this was the case? 2. He's seen the power the Dark Lord knows not, in Harry, during Occlumency, and is racing Harry to the finish line.. hmm I like that one. But he would be very stupid to do that, I don't think it can be done without the blood of Lily that is in Harry, now that Voldemort is protected by it too. 3. He's trying to confuse Harry, because he's OFH!ESE.. LOL it kind of works but anyone who knows Harry knows he isn't confused about these things, he's not paying attention to them, only overthinkers like me are. I don't know.. There are probably some *really* simple explanations that I have't even looked at yet. I would like to think more on my number two suggestion, if anyone is interested in this train of thought at all. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 02:17:13 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:17:13 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138250 This has been an interesting idea, and the more I read about it, the more I am swayed to think that maybe DD isn't really gone. I tend to think he's actually dead (do you really think Hagrid could act out that kind of pain?). But, DD is heavily connected with phoenixes thoroughout this book, Fawkes leaves the school (to look for his master?) and Harry thinks he sees a phoenix fly into the blue. There was that flame before the white tomb encased his body too. I'd be interested if anyone knows anything about the shroud. Do stars and blue have any connection to anything? I think that DD will definitely sacrifice himself for the greater good, and he has no problem with death. He's said so many times. So, until I get better evidence, I'm still on the side of "he's really gone." Rachel From nuadan4me at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 02:10:49 2005 From: nuadan4me at yahoo.com (nuadan4me) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:10:49 -0000 Subject: Who is R.A.B., really? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138251 This is my first posting since joining HPfGU, which in itself was less than a week ago; I'm days behind on reading postings, so I hope you'll forgive me if the topic I raise has already been dealt with thoroughly! Like just about everyone else, when I came across the message contained in the locket that was meant for Voldemort to read, I wracked the HP part of my brain, and came up with Regulus Black. I was very satisfied with that idea, and it worked well with my desire for someone in the Black clan besides Sirius to have seen the evil in Voldemort; someone who could and did do something about it. However, it just seemed too easy, too much (if you'll pardon me) of a no-brainer. We all know how JKR loves riddles, hidden clues and the like; so I figured that maybe there was more to this "R.A.B." I've come up with a couple of ideas -- postulates, if you will -- about finding the identity of R.A.B. Mind you, I really don't know who this person could be: he/she could be someone with whom we're already acquainted, or someone entirely new. That's for JKR to reveal in Book 7. (Personally, I have a secret dread that Harry's not going to survive Book 7, and we'll all be desolate at his heroic, but tragic end.) At any rate, here are my ideas (the last, I think, is the best): 1) The person who found the locket Horcrux in the cave was not necessarily killed by the potion in the bowl (possibly because that person didn't drink it), but knew that he/she was going to die soon, possibly from some other cause (old age?). I realize that the descent to the cave was perilous, but Dumbledore was able to manage it. 2) In Book 7, Harry will almost certainly visit No. 12 Grimmauld Place. Upon inspecting the tapestry delineating the Black family tree, he might use the Reparo spell to bring back the names of the family members that Mrs. Black blasted out, and possibly learn whether Regulus Black's middle initial is A. There is another Black family member held in disgrace; namely, Alphard Black; which brings me to my third postulation: 3) There are many people who, for reasons of their own, initialize their first name and use their middle name; for example, W. Averell Harrimann. It's just possible, though it's a long shot, that we don't have enough information on one of the characters we've already met, and that person could be the locket thief; for example, Alphard Black (who, I admit, is a long shot). Finally... 4) I think there's a good possibility that, because of the way in which it appears on the page, that R.A.B. is a monogram, and should be read as "R.B.A.", where the surname initial is given prominence, i.e. in the CENTER. This is the way monograms traditionally are presented, and in JKR's rendering of the monogram, the initial "A" is prominent. Well, there it is. I'd appreciate your thoughts on my ideas; and if these thoughts have already received treatment, please let me know. Kathy, a half-blood calligrapher From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 02:33:26 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:33:26 -0000 Subject: Why Snape did not take Harry to LV /Snape and Dark Arts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138252 I don't think Snape is in this for himself. I think he adores the Dark Arts because of their great power and mystery. I think that he wields them because he wants to show his mom (or his dad?) how powerful he can be. In rereading HPB, it does talk about how in the potions book, the HBP becomes increasingly interested in dark spells...muffliato is harmless, sectumsempra causes a huge amount of damage. When did Snape use this book? What events caused him to more closely examine the DA? Was Slughorn still at school when Snape was in his house? I guess we can assume so, since Slughorn talks about wanting Sirius and Regulus in his house. Anyway, I can't imagine Snape wanting to be a new Dark Lord. We still haven't fully explored the relationship between Lily and Snape...the "awful boy" that Petunia talks about is never clarifed as James and Lily. I'm wondering if somehow, this is the regret that DD tells Harry Snape felt. Rachel From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun Aug 21 03:00:59 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:00:59 -0700 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4307EE6B.9060307@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138253 Certainly Hermione can see in shades of gray where Harry views the world in Black and White. She might be the first to realize there are some odd things about how Snape killed Dumbledore.. If Harry chooses to tell her EVERYTHING. She might realize that Snape was bound by the unbreakable vow and had no choice. Harry blinds himself with hatred and refuses to see what the vow would have forced Snape to do. And lacks the insight to realize that Snape is more valuable to the Order as a spy close to Voldemort then Dumbledore is as an old man with a crippled hand and waning powers... Its a war. Hard choices had to be made. If Hermione CAN put two and two together, she could very likely find a way to help Snape pass information to the Order. Maybe since Draco was having 2nd thoughts, he might end up working against Voldemort in an attempt to protect his parents? Jazmyn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 03:11:10 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:11:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: <4307EE6B.9060307@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138254 Jazmyn wrote: > Certainly Hermione can see in shades of gray where Harry views the world > in Black and White. She might be the first to realize there are some > odd things about how Snape killed Dumbledore.. If Harry chooses to tell > her EVERYTHING. She might realize that Snape was bound by the > unbreakable vow and had no choice. Harry blinds himself with hatred and > refuses to see what the vow would have forced Snape to do. Alla: I think that Hermione was always seeing world in Black and White as if "authority figure is always right". I sincerely hope that HBP taught her that this is not always the case. I also think that since Snape was the one who took this Vow in the first palce, he is the one who should be responsible for consequences of the said Vow, NOT Dumbledore. I don't remember Narcissa FORCING Snape to take the Vow. I mean, she was pleading, but Snape took it by his own choice. JMO, Alla. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Aug 21 03:12:30 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:12:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: <4307B430.9060704@chalmers.se> Message-ID: <000e01c5a5fe$2c1f6b60$753a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 138255 Having re-read the first four books and halfway through the fifth; I have to say that (I think Snape is on DD side), considering that he's supposed to be undercover, what he's doing is not as bad as it might seem. He has singled out HP of course, but many times he gives him detention or so for a reason, vague reasons sometimes, but still. It just becomes clear in the fifth book especially, when he's compared to Umbridge, who's just evil beyond repair. /Fabian sherry now: Um, what would you call his treatment of Neville then, if you think he wasn't really that bad? He was completely emotionally abusive to that boy! He took every opportunity to insult him, put him down in front of his peers and in front of other teachers. He threatened to poison his pet! I've never been as upset by his treatment of Harry as his treatment of Neville. And what about his nasty comment about not seeing anything different, when Hermione's teeth were hexed? Not a particularly nice man. Yes, I know, that doesn't mean evil, but I've got to wonder about a man who is constantly emotionally abusive to those who are not in a position to defend themselves! That's one of the signs of one of the worst authority figures, someone who really isn't as confident as he pretends, so needs to take it out on those subordinate to him. Sherry From ellcam at cox.net Sun Aug 21 02:52:38 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:52:38 -0400 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) References: Message-ID: <000801c5a5fb$641306b0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138256 Valky said: I just don't buy that it's about Harry being mediocre, but I also can't buy that Snape has realised this interesting thing he found in Harry is a better power or more important that stealth wizardry because at the end of HBP he's still preaching at Harry how stupid he is for not making that his priority. IMO, Snape still harbors dislike for Harry because of Harry's parentage. His distaste for James Potter, and now Harry, is evident in the comment he makes in PA when he compares the arrogance of father and son. He continually comments on the special treatment Harry recieves, showing perhaps that Snape is jealous of the Potters. Snape is dumbfounded that Harry is "the Chosen One" - an arrogant, talentless, rulebreaker. Snape has heard the prophecy and knows that Harry is "the one," but he just can't believe that Harry will be able to defeat LV. Snape assumes that Harry will need to fend off LV in his head, that Harry will defeat LV by using occlumency. But as HBP has shown us, all you need is love. Harry is not the picture of a wizard Snape thinks can defeat LV, but he begrudgingly continues to try to teach Harry DADA in the hopes that it will take. Snape really DOES think Harry is mediocre, and in some ways this is true from Snape's perspective. Harry has not been very proficient in potions or occlumency, talents that Snape holds in high esteem. I think what we have seen thus far is that Harry will likely not defeat LV in the ways Snape is trying to instruct him. Harry will defeat LV in his own way, a way which Snape can not understand - most likely with help from Harry's friends. Rachel From hexicon at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 03:38:23 2005 From: hexicon at yahoo.com (Kristen) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:38:23 -0000 Subject: Canon question re Harry, Snape, and Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138257 In conversations with or in front of Harry, has Snape ever referred to Lily, either by name or by implication? Hexicon From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 04:04:51 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:04:51 -0000 Subject: Pulling together an OFH!ESG!DD'sMan!Snape theory.. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138258 Valky, still meandering back and forth about the Snape camps, suddenly looks as though she has been struck with a bolt of lightning. She points her wand at each of the camps one after the other.. "Superspy..ESG..DD'sman..ESE..OFH.." she mutters to herself. "AHA! There *is* one missing!" she says finally in a loud voice, "we've covered every angle but this one.." In a small space off to one side of the camps Valky sits down and raises herself a flag. "Yes that is correct.. I said OFH!ESG!DD'sMan.. and I think it can be well enough established to start, with a few canon points.." 1. The Shrieking Shack: Snape goes to the Shrieking Shack, after he has seen Sirius Black with Harry and Lupin on the MMap. Why? Because he would just *love* revenge on Sirius.. ? No that's just a bonus. Because it would be Oh so perfectly poetic for him to catch Lupin too with Sirius and prove to DD that he was right about Lupin being untrustworthy? Well yeah a little bit of that but thats not it either. How about, he wants that darn Order of Merlin. I think we are getting somewhere... How about he's got a powerful thirst to prove himself.. and saving that stupid Potter boy for the WW catching Sirius Black and his accomplices.. being the one who caught them.. mmm mmm would that taste like heaven to Severus Snape? 2. Draco: "Snape is just after my Glory" I beg to differ Draco, Snape doesn't want *your* glory, he wants *the* Glory the respect of all under Wizarddom. Proving himself to Voldemort.. he's done that, I think, and he's not satisfied. Believe me Draco, a pat on the head from the lowest form of evil in the world cannot suffice. But saving you, that's another matter all together. Dumbledore tells Draco that Snape was acting under his orders. Draco replies No he wasn't you old fool he promised my mother, he made a UV he told me that.. And Dumbledore answers Of course he would tell you that, but... then we are cut off, and left hanging in suspense as to how misplaced DD's trust really was. What's for certain tht we can gther is that Snape did take the UV, and he did try to find out what Draco was up to, and in the end he did protect Draco from Voldemort by finishing the job on Dumbledore. How much of a hand DD had in this is pure speculation really, but Snapes hand.. tied from the word go by the coils of the snake, but he did what he could do to protect Draco. This is what DD had ordered him to do, in any case. 3. The Prophecy. I have to give credit to the HPFGU member who reminded me of these words from Dumbledore. The only two people who know the entire contents of the prophecy are Harry and Dumbledore. Snape knows only the first couple of lines. which are : the one with the power to defeat the dark Lord approaches.... born as the seventh month dies... born to those who have thrice defied him... The rest includes the words... and either must die by the hand of the other... for neither can live while the other survives... The words Snape does know tells him that there is a power in Harry, (or Neville) that can defeat the Dark Lord. The part he doesn't know says pretty plainly that the power is really only of any use to Harry thanks to all the things Voldemort has done to him. But Snape can act on the part he does know, he could choose to if he wants. And I think he does. I have said it before and I will say it again now.. I might be alone on this but Snape is *Studying Harry* in HBP. Snape doesn't study mediocre things, only things that he doesn't know himself. So here are the premises for OFH!ESG!DD'sMan!Snape. 1. Snape knows that Harry has *the magical power* to defeat the Dark Lord, and only this. 2. Snape wants to be a hero, prove himself, and win an Order of Merlin (as per POA and Draco's comment about him being a Glory Hunter). 3. Snape is acting on what he knows of the prophecy, he's learned how to use the power in Harry, or at least has tried to learn it. (not the blood power the other one the "I'll be with Sirius again" one). In here I have done my best to set up the house of cards that says Snape respected and was loyal to DD, he always wanted to be the great hero himself and this is why DD trusts him, and he's actively pursuing Harry's destiny but only because he's Out For Himself ! Ever So Good in fact. you all may proceed knocking it down if you wish.. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory PS. As for Snape killing DD, it follows somewhat from here that DD did give Snape an order to kill him, and he just followed it. It has to do with Dumbeldore's motives not Snapes so its out of the equation. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 04:10:35 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:10:35 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138259 hg, replying to Ceridwen, Jen Reese, Auria: Ceridwen: I still cling to *my* baby, that Dumbledore was already dead, and is only temporarily alive due to Harry's double 'rennervate' and his plea. Second favorite possibility, that he was dying already, noticeable evidence in the Tower chapter, and the time had passed where intervention would be possible. But, I like your Slughorn theory, too. Maybe our two babies could play together for a while, at least until book 7 comes out? hg: I love both! I, too, had toyed with the idea that Dumbledore was already dead, but I hadn't thought of Harry's rennervate. I thought that maybe the curse from the ring would kill him within 24 hours or something, and so he was trying to maximize his time by taking Draught of Living Death (hence the times "away" from the school). So then Snape would be waking him for his meetings with Harry etc. I do like the Slughorn theory, but I'm not married to it yet (still "just friends"). I've considered the possibility that Slughorn faked Dumbledore's death from the tower scene on through the funeral, and that cave Dumbledore was himself. It would still work. Ceridwen: On the left-handed thing, Dumbledore has been working in spite of an injured right hand all year. He could have been using his left, and getting used to it as well. Using his non-dominant hand might indeed decrease his magical reactions, or even his magic if the dominance of the hand plays a part. Like trying to write with the wrong hand. hg: I considered that, too. I was particularly drawn, however, to the scenes depicting Dumbledore with the bottles, and he repeatedly has trouble with them -- and instead of opening them with his left hand, he uses his wand instead. In the cave, he holds his wand in his left repeatedly, cuts his arm with his left hand (it could be argued that he couldn't hold the knife with his right, but he does draw the knife with his left hand, suggesting it was in a convenient left-handed position), and he feels the cave walls and the potion with his right, which up until this point, has seemed for all intents and purposes dead. The scene in Slughorn's borrowed house demonstrates, for me anyway, that he's left handed, since we know Dumbledore is right handed: imagine them standing back to back, making "one identical sweeping motion;" the motion would not be identical unless they favored opposite hands. Furthermore, JK makes such a big deal of showing us where both of Slughorn's hands are in other scenes and what they are doing. So although I won't rule out compensation, I can't embrace it either. Ceridwen: I don't know if the bird can be changed into someone else, but if anyone could do it, Dumbledore could. He taught Transfiguration, and is shown during the series, transfiguring different items... If the potion in the cave wasn't a deadly poison, then the sinking down the wall might be Fawkes coming to the end of his adult cycle anyway. Can't vouch for becoming pale, though. And, we've already been informed in the books that a powerful wizard can project his mind into another being. Voldemort has done this twice: once when he inhabited Nagini to attack Arthur, and once at the MoM when he inhabited Harry during his duel with Dumbledore. Harry had to say the words Voldemort put in his mouth, IIRC. hg: We can vouch for Slughorn becoming pale, as he does whenever he's nervous. Even so, I also thought that it sometimes seemed as though cave Dumbledore was having a private conversation with someone unseen. ??? Ceridwen: Slughorn being Dumbledore, or at least taking part in a deception as he's one of DD's old and dear friends, appeals, and gives yet another reason for his particular part in HBP. hg: I love the idea of "two old men who seem to be past their prime show everyone how to do the thing properly." I really got the impression that bringing in Slughorn was Dumbledore's way of hauling out the big guns, no more fooling around. Jen Reese: 1) This is subjective I know, but the impact of Dumbledore's death on Harry and much of the WW, as well as the sequence of the phoenix song, funeral, etc., were among the most poignant scenes JKR has written in the entire series. To go back on that....Well, heck, JKR likens herself a bit to Dumbledore--is she also willing for Harry (and us) to suffer a little emotional pain if she can set right the entire story in Book 7? Evil & ruthless indeed. ;) hg: I know, I know. I thought of the "cheapening" aspect of the faked death. But I get the impression that Dumbledore wouldn't do it to sweep out from behind the curtain in the final scene of the final act and steal the show, but rather he'd do it in order to buy more time. Dumbledore has made it plain that Harry has to do this, destroying Voldemort in the end has to be done by Harry; still, I don't see the end of Dumbledore's usefulness in the story, nor do I believe he'd reveal himself to more than a select few, and then only when he was about to genuinely die. So I think that covers the "wise old guy with the beard has to die" bit, as well as "the hero has to go it alone," right? As for the "really sweet things" Dumbledore said, my mind goes STRAIGHT to the "I am with you" line, which utterly broke my heart. However, sadly, I can see Slughorn saying it and meaning it, in a much different way. (Harry is the Chosen One after all.) That line was the one that made me hate that I was even considering that cave Dumbledore could be Slughorn, more than any of the lines throughout the cave/tower scene. Jen: The context you mention above, that we know one of Dumbeldore's beliefs played out in words and actions is that the good of the community is more important than any one individual. Or at least the *emotional* well-being of any one individual. A deception would cause Harry much emotional distress, but we've seen Dumbledore is willing to sacrifice emotional well-being if he feels there's a greater good at work (i.e, Durselys and the blood protection, Sirius at GP). hg: Exactly. We should see Dumbledore's "caring more for you than the nameless faceless thousands" as an exception to his own rule. Dumbledore expects a lot of people in the name of the greater good and most often gets what he expects. Auria: Glad to be aboard the 'DD-faked-death' boat! You make some more good points, although I am more inclined to think that Snape IS in on the plan. The main reason is that Hagrid overheard DD and Snape having an argument over something that Snape didn't want to continue doing anymore (I dont have the quote to hand). This could mean that Snape doesn't want to go through with the plan and continue faking his allegiance to LV. Snape also had the opportunity to allow the other DEs to if not kill then perhaps torture Harry after the tower scene but he convinced them to leave him alone. If he was a true DE surely he would have the evil tendency to at least injure Harry, but he didn't. hg: I have to agree about Snape: as wicked as he appears AKing Dumbledore, he appears equally good when calling off the DE's. Would he HAVE to be in on it, though? Could Dumbledore have given him explicit commands in the forest, similar to his explicit commands to Harry (if I say run, you will run etc.)? Something to the effect of "do whatever it takes to protect Draco's life and your cover, you must see this through, it is of the utmost importance..." It would be a tidier parallel to the orders Harry has to obey. And the stakes are tremendously higher for Snape -- if he has a memory of a secret plan to fake Dumbledore's death, you can bet Voldemort will dig it out of his brain. I'd think, therefore, that Dumbledore wouldn't have Snape in on it for the simple need to protect Snape (and Draco). This would allow for your conversation to go (almost nearly) as you imagined it, and would hold the integrity of Snape as you're seeing him, am I right? Auria: I also had the thought that in all the previous books DD has always acted carefully and cautiously when it comes to Harry. So surely taking Harry to the cave, which could be very dangerous as DD stated himself, was taking a huge unnecessary risk? Why did he need Harry with him anyway, as Harry didn't do anything that was unique to his talents? Surely DD could have taken Slughorn or Snape instead? So having Harry there must have another motive. DD probably already knew the horcrux was a fake and it was part of his plan to convince the world and Harry of his final demise. hg: I don't think Dumbledore's been cautious with Harry throughout the series; I've gotten the distinct impression that he's given Harry many opportunities to face challenges (the stone, the chamber, time turner/Sirius...) although when it came to allowing Voldemort to stroll through Harry's mind he put his foot down. That being said, he didn't utilize Harry's talents much in the cave/tower scene except for Accio, which wasn't very useful; but he did need someone with Harry's personal strength to accompany him, and maybe the motive lies in that -- maybe Dumbledore knew more about what challenges lay ahead than he let on. Of course, I like the idea that he needed Harry to bear witness to a faked murder idea best of all. :) Auria: Good point about the five minutes for Harry to get his cloak - I thought of that too. I hadn't thought about DD perhaps using a bezoar however, so thats an excellent theory. I liked all your other pointers too, and will look out for them while I am rereading the book. In particular the absence of Fawkes when DD is in trouble on the tower is particularly strange and would link to the faked death theory perfectly. hg: Yeah, I like the Five Minutes a lot, but it doesn't give me irrefutable evidence of a switch, and I wish I could say it did. For instance, what if Harry had said, "I've already got it, let's go"? Maybe Dumbledore was GIVING the five minutes to Harry? I'm perplexed about Fawkes. I don't know where it fits in with anything; I could speculate that Dumbledore was out there somewhere being healed? I like all my tidbits, too, except "I am with you," as I said above, and even aside from the Dumbledore issue I think there's a LOT more to Slughorn than meets the eye. Particularly interesting to me is, first, how Tom knows that Slughorn knows about Horcruxes (don't have the book, can't give the quote, but Slughorn definitely knows about them and Tom definitely knows this), and second, Slughorn's eyes -- JK repeatedly draws our attention to them and, by the way, Jen, they're green. Thanks to all for giving me a fun post night. hg. From sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 21 04:12:35 2005 From: sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan1) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:12:35 -0000 Subject: Canon question re Harry, Snape, and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: > In conversations with or in front of Harry, has Snape ever referred to > Lily, either by name or by implication? > > Hexicon Never. Not once. Funny thing, huh. Sue(hpfan) From ag0991 at aol.com Sun Aug 21 04:10:07 2005 From: ag0991 at aol.com (ag0991) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:10:07 -0000 Subject: Who taught DADA before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138261 Ersatz Harry wrote: > Perhaps this has been dealt with way back in the archives somewhere, > but I found myself wondering about this today and went back to SS/PS > to see if Quirrell's predecessor was mentioned. No such professor was > named as far as I could find in a quick pass through the book. > snip< LoonyLunaLupin: I cannot find any canon regarding Quirrel's predeccesor either but I think that JKR may have been hinting that Quirrel had been around several years because both staff and the older students in PS/SS seemed to be familiar with him in the beginning of Harry's first year . However, if Quirrel did stick around for more than one year than there must be a reason that the DADA curse did not affect him. "Oh, he [Voldemort] definately wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts Job" said Dumbledore " The aftermath of our meeting proved that . You see, we have not been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Voldemort." (HBP, p. 446, Am. edition) So, maybe Voldemort lifted his own curse on the DADA job to give his servant more than one year to do his dirty work at Hogwarts. Assuming, of course that he was in Voldemort's employ when he was firsthired at Hogwarts. IMO it was not Voldemort's curse that killed Quirrel, it was Voldemort himself. LoonyLunaLupin. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 04:25:51 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050821042552.92145.qmail@web60417.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138262 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > Jazmyn wrote: Snip She might realize that Snape was > bound by the > > unbreakable vow and had no choice. Harry blinds > himself with > hatred and > > refuses to see what the vow would have forced > Snape to do. Larry now: Snape was not bound to do anything, nor was he forced to do anything. Dumbledore has spoken of the choice between doing what is right and what is easy. GOF Am. ed. P. 724. And Phineas Nigellus tells Harry,...."We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." OOTP Am. ed. P. 495. I think what we have here is the fundamental distinction between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin. That a Gryffindor will choose to do what is right, even at the cost of his or her life. While the Slytherin will choose to save their own life at the expence of doing what is right. This sort of crisis situation is a test of character, and the choice one makes determines that character. But there is always a choice; the Slytherin may rise above self preservation as a prime motivator, and a Gryffindor may choose to abandon what is right and embrace self preservation. There is always a choice. Larry ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 21 04:36:20 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:36:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138263 Alla:I think that Hermione was always seeing world in Black and White as if "authority figure is always right". I sincerely hope that HBP taught her that this is not always the case. Actually, I think she learned this lesson as early as PS. Back in the relatively innocent days of First Year, Hermione certainly seemed to believe an authority figure would never do anything wrong without good reason, not even Professor Snape (I think I remember her saying something along the lines of "a teacher wouldn't do that" with regards to stealing the Stone-sorry if I'm wrong, it has been a while). The moment she sees Harry in danger on his broomstick, however, she suspects Snape and deduces (as far as she can tell) that Snape is responsible for trying to hurt/kill Harry. If I remember correctly, her attitude toward Snape changes entirely after this, and she maintains that he is guilty when Harry, Ron and she are discussing things with Hagrid in his hut. I wish I had the exact canon here, but JKR narrated something like "Hermione certainly seemed to have abandoned the idea that teachers are always right". I think this might show that although Hermione certainly respects rules and authority, she still places "friendship and bravery" ahead of "books and cleverness" and her preconcieved notions of authoritative righteousness. From ellcam at cox.net Sun Aug 21 02:59:06 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:59:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is R.A.B., really? References: Message-ID: <001401c5a5fc$4b818c10$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138264 kathy said: I think there's a good possibility that, because of the way in which it appears on the page, that R.A.B. is a monogram, and should be read as "R.B.A.", where the surname initial is given prominence, i.e. in the CENTER. This is such a great idea! But, would someone sign their name in a monogram fashion? Just wondering. Really creative thinking there! Rachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 04:41:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:41:43 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor v Slytherin . WAS: Re: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: <20050821042552.92145.qmail@web60417.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138265 Larry: > This sort of crisis situation is a test of character, > and the choice one makes determines that character. > But there is always a choice; the Slytherin may rise > above self preservation as a prime motivator, and a > Gryffindor may choose to abandon what is right and > embrace self preservation. There is always a choice. Alla: I agree, Larry. There is always a choice. I believe we already have the example of the Slytherin abandoning self-preservation and heroically defying Voldemort pretty much knowing that he would die for that. I believe that JKR pretty much confirmed R.A.B. identity as Regulus in the interview, so I am arguing as if it is a given, if you disagree that R.A.B is Regulus, then obviously it does not work :-) I did not respect Regulus much before H.B.P. it was pretty much what I feel for Draco now - a little bit of pity, but dislike nevertheles. Now I respect him very much - for having the guts to abandon Slytherin desire to save their own skin and stand up to Voldemort. Snape, on the other hand .... Just my opinion of course, Alla. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 04:54:27 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:54:27 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138266 > >>Del: > First off, Betsy, it seems that even though I did my best to dispel > that possible misunderstanding, you still did misunderstand me :-) I > was trying to convey that Slughorn was written AS a pedophile, in > order to alert us to some possible dark secret about him. I > specifically said that I don't think that Slughorn IS a pedophile, > because this would be completely out of place in HP. But I think he > might be AS a pedophile, seducing young victims in order to get > something out of them, something not "normal" and hidden. Betsy Hp: No, I understood you completely and my entire response was couched in that vein. I wasn't speaking at all about the validity of Slughorn being an *actual* pedophile, I was speaking of him as a representative of, just as you were. My view is that Slughorn is more representative of someone interested in talented young adults then a predator of children. Fenrir, on the other hand, as an eater of young children (who then tries to take those children into his pack) is the more obvious pedophile stand-in, IMO. > >>Del: > We don't know at what age Slughorn starts courting his students. It > seems that only the older students get invited at his parties, but > that doesn't mean that Slughorn doesn't build relationships with > younger students too. Betsy Hp: Oh, I'm sure Slughorn keeps his eye out for possible future members of his little club, and I'm sure he has his class favorites. But from the parties we've seen, they're really adults only affairs. The youngest are all upper-years on the cusp of adulthood themselves. > >>Betsy Hp wrote: > > In her livejournal, Threeoranges connected Slughorn with a > > possible real life person who "collected" talented young men at > > Oxford: > >>Del: > Interestingly enough, that person was gay, and being gay was an > advantage to be admitted in his club. So I doubt that person had > only platonic relationships with all of his favourites. Betsy Hp: Possibly not (I honestly know nothing about Sligger but what was spoken of in that post) but these were college students we're talking about, so I see nothing wrong (certainly not on the level of pedophilia) with an affair or two. Slughorn does court Harry. And while I doubt JKR planned on anything sexual occuring, that was the vibe I picked up. However, I saw nothing unhealthy or predatory or even unbalanced in Slughorn's interest. (Harry certainly didn't feel threatened.) Which is why I don't see him as a parallel for a pedophile. > >>Del: > > I see Slughorn as the long-time pedophile, the one who shares the > life of his victims, who has a public positive role in their lives > (parent, teacher, family friend, coach, etc...), and who takes > advantage of the trust the kids have come to put in him to slowly > get them where he wants them. As you said, he is a seducer, not an > attacker. > Betsy Hp: Maybe if he'd had a junior version of his Slug club, or if younger kids had been at his parties I could see the parallel. But Slughorn is so adult oriented. His party was adult heavy (it seemed alumni outnumbered students), his club is made up of upper-classmen. I think Ginny is the youngest student in the club and she's certainly too old to draw a pedophile's interest I'd think. Interestingly enough, it's *Harry* who gets Slughorn drunk and has his way with him. Not the other way around. And Slughorn never seemed to want to get any of the students alone. He was taken aback when Tom stayed behind, and he wanted Harry to come to his *group* affairs. > >>Betsy Hp: > > For one, all of his former club members seem quite fond of him > > (even Snape in his own way)." > >>Del: > That's a surprising statement for me, because I never particularly > got that impression. Could you expand on it a bit, please? Betsy Hp: I'm assuming that his Christmas party was made up of Slug club members, and everyone at the party seemed to be having a grand time. And people were sending him gifts and autographed pictures, so I'm thinking he was well liked. As to Snape, well he attended the party and he didn't kill Slughorn for throwing an arm around him so in Snape-speak, Slughorn's a bud. > >>Del: > Moreover, that doesn't mean anything where pedophilic seducers are > concerned. Most of their victims usually enjoy their company to some > degree. Betsy Hp: But aren't the victims of pedophiles by definition, children? That's a huge reason that I don't think the parallel works. Because (unlike Fenrir) Slughorn *isn't* all that interested in children. Plus, Slughorn seems more interested in what his students can do for him when they become well connected adults in the WW. > >>Del: > > As I said, I don't believe that Slughorn is a pedophile per se, I > believe he's a metaphor for a pedophile. I believe that JKR wants > to warn us that his interest in people is not completely healthy, > that there's something hidden somewhere. And because this is the > Potterverse, I would think that this something would be related to > magic, not to sex. Betsy Hp: I could see a sexual parallel but *not* with pedophilia. Harry is certainly not a prepubescent boy. He's on the cusp of manhood and for the first time he's being overtly persued sexually (Romilda Vane). I could definitely buy a subversive reading of Slughorn being interested in Harry because he's a handsome young man. And I could buy that when Harry goes after the horcrux memory he tries to play on that attraction (with the Felix potion juicing up Harry's mojo). And I think the dark side of such weaknesses are shown when Slughorn gives Tom the horcrux information. So I do think JKR is pointing out the weaknesses in Slughorn's approach to things. But I don't think she's taking him to such a dark place as would fit the pedophile parallel. > >>Betsy Hp: > > Slughorn seems fond of Snape and I think he'd be just as eager for > > young!Snape to slip from Voldemort's grasp as Dumbledore was. > >>Del: > That would imply that Slughorn knew about Snape being a DE. But we > still don't know who knew that and who didn't. It doesn't seem to > have been widely known. Betsy Hp: Well, yeah. And we certainly don't know everything that occured at this time period. I was just saying that I don't think there's anything that speaks to Slughorn being a Death Eater sympathizer. I think he's much more on Dumbledore's side. > >>Del: > > Moreover, I'm not convinced that LV would want to send his spy to > work at a job that he knew was cursed. LV had no way of knowing how > much longer the war would last, so why would he risk losing his spy > after only one year of spying? Betsy Hp: Maybe Voldemort *did* think the war would only last one more year. He was winning at the time. There's no reason to think Voldemort was thinking long term. Perhaps Snape was supposed to provide an entry point or something. Of course this all pure guess work, so your view is a good as mine. > >>Del: > > If Slughorn is not an idiot, how can he believe that Harry is a > natural at Potions when he knows that: > 1) Harry did not get an O at his Potions OWL, > 2) Harry was never excellent under Snape? > Moreover, when Slughorn becomes slightly inebriated at the Christmas > party, he *does* start comparing Harry and Snape. Not a smart move > at all. Betsy Hp: 1) Maybe he figured Harry choked a bit on the test. He still swung an E. 2) Does Slughorn know what kind of student Harry was under Snape? I was under the impression that the Christmas party was the first time Snape and Slughorn really spoke about Harry. 3) I really don't think Slughorn knew of the animosity between the two. Plus, he *was* a bit tipsy at the time. > >>Betsy Hp: > > And I'm betting James wasn't invited. > > > >>Del: > I disagree. James was a pureblood, Betsy Hp: Yeah, but not *that* well known a pureblood. He wasn't of Black caliber, IOW. (Or at least the Potters have never been spoken of as that sort of family.) > >>Del: > his parents were rich, Betsy Hp: Slughorn isn't interested in mere money. He wants connections and interesting talents. > >>Del: > he was a Quidditch star, Betsy Hp: Not enough of one. I don't recall that he was recruited by various quidditch teams. And being the beloved school jock doesn't seem to be enough for Slughorn. > >>Del: > he was a ringleader, Betsy Hp: Of a merry band of pranksters. I don't think that was Slughorn's style. > >>Del: > he was extremely popular, he was extremely smart, Betsy Hp: He was popular and smart, but at a school level. Slughorn seems to look beyond school talents for a promising WW career. I bet James could have pulled Hermione caliber grades if he hadn't spent so much energy pranking, but it doesn't sound like he did. > >>Del: > he became Head Boy, Betsy Hp: After a major personal turn around that seems to have surprised everyone and occured only in his sixth year. > >>Del: > and so forth and so on. If anyone should have been invited into the > Slug Club, it was James Potter IMO. But either he wasn't, or he > refused. In either case, my question is: why? And no, I don't think > that the fact that Slughorn was Head of Slytherin was a good enough > reason, neither for Sirius nor for James. > Betsy Hp: I disagree. Sirius had a real block when it came to Slytherin. If James was invited (and he may have been - I'm arguing he might not have, but I don't pretend I know for sure) he may have backed out for Sirius's sake. I'm pretty positive Snape was a member and that could have been enough to keep James out as well. (Though do we know for sure that James *wasn't* a Slug club member? Slughorn may just have liked Lily a bit better.) > >>Del: > I personally wouldn't put Slughorn on the level of DD. And in both > their cases, I do wonder *how* they got to learn about horcruxes. > This subject isn't discussed in any of the Hogwarts library books... > Betsy Hp: Well no, but Hogwarts isn't the fount of *all* wizarding knowledge. Both Dumbledore and Slughorn are of an age. They've been around about the same amount of time so they've both had opportunity to explore various areas of knowledge. And they both strike me as curious, so it's not a stretch for me to see either of them researching various areas of dark magic. The knowledge itself isn't enough to tip Slughorn into the ESE camp for me. Especially when he seemed to find horcruxes quite repulsive. > >>Betsy Hp: > > Because he was ashamed. Slughorn got played and in doing so he > > inadvertantly gave Tom the information he needed to become Lord > > Voldemort. I'm sure that realization has haunted him and that's > > why he's been so reluctant to share that information with > > anybody. > >>Del: > Do you realise the level of moral cowardice that this scenario would > necessitate?? Lupin got pounded pretty harshly by some readers for > forgetting to mention for a year that Sirius was an Animagus, but > Slughorn forgot to mention *for 50 years* that LV had shown an > interest in horcruxes!? That's criminal withholding of crucial > information, that's what it is! Betsy Hp: I don't see it that way at all. Voldemort, in all his creeping glory, doesn't return until eleven years before Harry's birth, IIRC. And he's fairly quiet for a while. He raises up, battles ensue and then he's suddenly killed. Slughorn *was* a coward, but I think you're putting too much into his lap. (Slughorn certainly wasn't the only wizard to connect Voldemort to Tom Riddle. Only Dumbledore was brave enough to openly speak of it.) > >>Betsy Hp: > > What I wonder is how Dumbledore knew Slughorn was hiding > > something. > > > >>Del: > Legilimency? Betsy Hp: So Dumbledore just ran around randomly legilimencing various wizards until something popped out at him? Something led him to Slughorn, I think. > >>Del: > Slughorn kept it a secret for 50 years that LV was once Tom Riddle, > and only one of the two greatest Legilimenses alive seems to have > discovered that he once told LV about horcruxes. I'd say he's good > at keeping secrets indeed. Betsy Hp: Oh, a heck of a lot of wizards could connect Tom to Voldemort. They chose not to do so. That's why so many refused, or were reluctant, to talk to Dumbledore about Tom Riddle. > >>Del: > 1) RL seducing pedophiles are often pretty obvious in their liking > of their victims. > Betsy Hp: At this point I think Harry is too old to be considered fodder for a pedophile. I can see Pippin's argument regarding Lupin and the candy because Harry was a child at the time. But Harry is almost a man by the time he and Slughorn meet. (I'm assuming Harry is the stand-in for Slughorn's victim?) > >>Del: > 2) I did say that Slughorn is not a pedophile. I said that JKR wrote > him AS a possible pedophile, to raise suspicion IMO. I think she's > trying to say: "Caution! Slughorn's liking of some students is not > as innocent as it looks, it's hiding something darker, some kind of > Dark Magic or something." Betsy Hp: I *can* see a darker side to Slughorn's interest in Harry. There can be a predatory feel to it. (He's a "collecter" after all.) And I think JKR illustrates the danger (and the power) such an interest can bring. But I don't think it parallels to pedophilia. Honestly, I think Fenrir has that covered. Betsy Hp, who's up a bit past her bed time and hopes this all made some sort of sense From marilynpeake at cs.com Sun Aug 21 05:09:03 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:09:03 -0000 Subject: Snape, dark lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138267 I think that Dumbledore will return. No one yet knows the total effect of the drink in the cup. Could it preserve Dumbledore while weakening him for a time and making him appear close to death? Did Snape really hit Dumbledore with a spell that killed, or could it be another type of spell? There's also a great deal of religious imagery in the Harry Potter books. Looking at the Christian symbolism: Dumbledore drinks from a cup as Jesus did during the Last Supper, he is betrayed (at least in appearance) by someone he trusts, then he is buried in a tomb. Will he rise again? Dumbledore's familiar is the Phoenix, and a great deal was made in the 6th book about the Phoenix singing as Dumbledore appeared to die. Perhaps Dumbledore has not died, or perhaps he will come back in spirit form. And perhaps Snape and Dumbledore were working together to achieve the illusion that Dumbledore had died. Perhaps Dumbledore trusted Snape for good reason. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ "The Golden Goblet" Newsletter, now available at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marilynpeake --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ginny343" wrote: > >> In HBP, I felt like Dumbledore's injured hand was obvious foreshadowing for his death, and I read the book expecting him to die. Although, not as he did. Snape's aparent betrayal was a shocker. From scarah at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 05:13:13 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:13:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is R.A.B., really? In-Reply-To: <001401c5a5fc$4b818c10$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> References: <001401c5a5fc$4b818c10$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> Message-ID: <32025905082022135f66b6a8@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138268 > kathy said: > I think there's a good possibility that, because of the way in > which it appears on the page, that R.A.B. is a monogram, and should be read as "R.B.A.", where the surname initial is given prominence, i.e. in the CENTER. Sarah: Must be the Scholastic version. In the Bloomsbury edition, the RAB letter is written in plain italic typeface, and is signed just "R.A.B." Even Hagrid's tearstained letters are just regular old italic type. Sarah From scarah at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 05:28:06 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:28:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who taught DADA before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3202590508202228516843da@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138269 Ersatz Harry wrote: > Perhaps this has been dealt with way back in the archives somewhere, > but I found myself wondering about this today and went back to SS/PS > to see if Quirrell's predecessor was mentioned. No such professor was > named as far as I could find in a quick pass through the book. Sarah: "Oh, yeah. Poor bloke. Brilliant mind. He was fine while he was studyin' outta books but then he took a year off ter get some firsthand experience.... " Hagrid says "studyin'," not "teachin'." Could it be that he finished Hogwarts, went to Albania for a year, then took up the post? Percy would know him from being a student, etc. Sarah From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 21 05:28:28 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:28:28 -0000 Subject: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138270 Kathy writes: How would Voldemort know? Even he said that he did not know what happened. The reflected curse blew him clean out of existence, leaving only a somewhat confused and befuddled piece of soul. I wonder if he might be wondering how that connection with Harry was made. What will he do if he suspects. Perhaps that is why the instructions to the DE are to leave Harry for Lord Voldemort. KJ I agree that Voldemort wouldn't fully understand the connection between himself and Harry, but he seemed to have made up his mind in the graveyard scene in GoF that Harry's blood is the only thing valuable or special about him, and wanted to kill him in front of all his DE's to prove the point. I was under the impression that a horcrux is something rather complicated to create, killing someone is an essential step, and certainly injures/tears the soul, but doesn't necessarily automatically create a horcrux (I doubt Pettigrew or Crouch junior has/had any). Also, Voldemort was, as you say, taken by surprise the night he first attacked Harry, and was left relatively helpless (his only ability left was to possess other living beings). How could he have constructed a horcrux in that state? (I'm also rather curois about what happened to Voldemort's wand that night, how did he get it back, I wonder...) Did he not flee after losing his body? I think Voldemort has wanted Harry saved for himself because he wants to destroy his only true threat (other than DD) and exact revenge upon the person he would see as responsible for what he went through that Hallowe'en night, not because he wants to study Harry any further (even 16 year old Tom Riddle, back in CoS, concluded that Harry was 'nothing special' just lucky, and decided to dispose of him accordingly). After all that, I have to admit it seems to fit that Harry would be somehow connected to Voldemort in a way that would end up in his eventual self-sacrifice. I'm just having a hard time seeing how Harry can be a horcrux, specifically. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 06:04:00 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:04:00 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) In-Reply-To: <000801c5a5fb$641306b0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138272 I said earlier about Snape's thinking Harry studying to be an Auror is a joke: > I just don't buy that it's about Harry being mediocre, but I also > can't buy that Snape has realised this interesting thing he found in > Harry is a better power or more important that stealth wizardry > because at the end of HBP he's still preaching at Harry how stupid > he is for not making that his priority. > > > Rachel replied: > IMO, Snape still harbors dislike for Harry because of Harry's parentage. His distaste for James Potter, and now Harry, is evident in the comment he makes in PA when he compares the arrogance of father and son. He continually comments on the special treatment Harry recieves, showing perhaps that Snape is jealous of the Potters. > > Snape is dumbfounded that Harry is "the Chosen One" - an arrogant, talentless, rulebreaker. Snape has heard the prophecy and knows that Harry is "the one," but he just can't believe that Harry will be able to defeat LV. Snape assumes that Harry will need to fend off LV in his head, that Harry will defeat LV by using occlumency. But as HBP has shown us, all you need is love. Harry is not the picture of a wizard Snape thinks can defeat LV, but he begrudgingly continues to try to teach Harry DADA in the hopes that it will take. > > Snape really DOES think Harry is mediocre, and in some ways this is true from Snape's perspective. Harry has not been very proficient in potions or occlumency, talents that Snape holds in high esteem. I think what we have seen thus far is that Harry will likely not defeat LV in the ways Snape is trying to instruct him. Harry will defeat LV in his own way, a way which Snape can not understand - most likely with help from Harry's friends. > > Rachel Valky (me) now: This is my opinion too, but in the context of it being the reason that Snape takes Harry's efforts to learn Auror skills to be laughable, this argument that you give here points firmly at my second suggestion which I have elaborated on slightly in a later post. I do agree that Snape really DOES think Harry is mediocre, but I am also absolutely certain that in Harry's latest year Snape was definitely poking his hooked nose into Harry's thoughts for a reason. And it wasn't to reassure himself that Harry was mediocre. In short I would assume from your argument Rachel, that you could too imagine that Snape *wants* to be the Hero of the story. To my mind, this is the only thing that canon on Snapes attitude to Harry's Auror ambition does *not* contradict from some angle. Darn it last post... I'll have to take my Glory Hound Good Snape elsewhere till tomorrow.. Valky Going back to her isolated little spot in the Snape camps and as Dumbledore Ordered is ... Remembering, Cedric Diggory From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 06:06:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:06:54 -0000 Subject: HBP The memory (why Ron & Hermione now know Harry's secrets) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138273 On 8/18 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138048 vmonte: I think that now that Ron and Hermione know about what is going on they will both figure out some key facts. The real reason why JKR didn't let Hermione and Ron in on the prophecy and other key information (like Snape's Worst Memory) is because they will use these pieces of info to figure out some key things about Snape. Snape's Worst Memory Super smart Snape takes an exam in which question 10 is about werewolves and he doesn't automatically realize that Lupin fits the description? Even after wondering where Lupin was going every month? Come on. Even Hermione figures this out when Snape gives the same essay as homework to Lupin's class. Harry will show Hermione and Ron his memories of what happened in the cave, on the tower, the prophecy memory, and of Snape's Worst Memory. Hermione will then figure out what Snape is all about. Sorry, but I really think that JKR is setting Hermione up to out smart Snape. Hermione was able to figure out Snape's potion puzzle in SS/PS because it was a logic test, and I think she will be the one who will out wit him in book 7. vmonte again: Hermione has not had to consider Snape's true intentions because just like everyone else in the Order she took Dumbledore's word that Snape was on their side. During the SS/PS the trio believed that Snape was bad and it was here that she solved Snape's potion puzzle. Snape's Worst Memory really stands out to me. Remember when Harry notices that Lupin is not looking good and wonders if the full moon is approaching? I think that the prank happened on the same day of the exams, that night. If Snape already knew that Lupin was a werewolf, what was his true intention when he followed Sirius to the Whomping Willow? Hermione does not have street smarts nor the fighting instincts that Harry does. But what she does have is a logical mind. She will see the penseive memory and remember that Snape gave this exact assignment to Lupin's class. She will also realize that Snape must have deduced what Lupin was from question 10. Vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 06:20:31 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:20:31 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > I said earlier about Snape's thinking Harry studying to be an Auror is > a joke: > > > I just don't buy that it's about Harry being mediocre, but I also > > can't buy that Snape has realised this interesting thing he found in > > Harry is a better power or more important that stealth wizardry > > because at the end of HBP he's still preaching at Harry how stupid > > he is for not making that his priority. > > > > > > > Rachel > Snape has heard the prophecy and knows that > Harry is "the one," but he just can't believe that Harry will be > able to defeat LV. Snape assumes that Harry will need to fend off > LV in his head, that Harry will defeat LV by using occlumency. But > as HBP has shown us, all you need is love. Harry is not the picture > of a wizard Snape thinks can defeat LV, but he begrudgingly > continues to try to teach Harry DADA in the hopes that it will take. > > > > Valky (me) said: > This is my opinion too,..... Valky again: Oooops Big Oops really sorry elves, I hit post but I forgot to add this important distinction to my answer.. I promise I will shut up after this. I said.. "This is my opinion too..." when I should have said: All except this one particular point (see above) is my opinion too. Snape does not *know* Harry is *the* "One" full stop. He only knows "Harry is the one with the power" because he has only heard half the prophecy. He could still conclude that the power is the answer, and not the boy. Snape is into "power" like that, being a Slytherin and all. This is the crux of my theory, Snape is not *hoping* that Harry will learn these Auror skills and defeat Voldemort. He's resigned fairly much to that *Harry* can't. However DD's little golden boy *is* going to go after Voldemort anyway, and Snape thinks its all a bit of a joke.. since he's going to learn this magic that Potter has and beat him to the job. Yeah that's all, sorry for the extra post. Valky Wishing someone would ask how this theory looks in the Lightning Struck Tower... and Remembering, Cedric Diggory From kjones at telus.net Sun Aug 21 06:57:00 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:57:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The One who Can defeat the Dark lord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430825BC.8010206@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138275 strawberryshaunie wrote: > I agree that Voldemort wouldn't fully understand the connection > between himself and Harry, but he seemed to have made up his mind in > the graveyard scene in GoF that Harry's blood is the only thing > valuable or special about him, and wanted to kill him in front of all > his DE's to prove the point. I was under the impression that a horcrux > is something rather complicated to create, killing someone is an > essential step, and certainly injures/tears the soul, but doesn't > necessarily automatically create a horcrux (I doubt Pettigrew or > Crouch junior has/had any). Also, Voldemort was, as you say, taken by > surprise the night he first attacked Harry, and was left relatively > helpless (his only ability left was to possess other living beings). > How could he have constructed a horcrux in that state? (I'm also > rather curois about what happened to Voldemort's wand that night, how > did he get it back, I wonder...) Did he not flee after losing his > body? I think Voldemort has wanted Harry saved for himself because he > wants to destroy his only true threat (other than DD) and exact > revenge upon the person he would see as responsible for what he went > through that Hallowe'en night, not because he wants to study Harry any > further (even 16 year old Tom Riddle, back in CoS, concluded that > Harry was 'nothing special' just lucky, and decided to dispose of him > accordingly). > After all that, I have to admit it seems to fit that Harry would be > somehow connected to Voldemort in a way that would end up in his > eventual self-sacrifice. I'm just having a hard time seeing how Harry > can be a horcrux, specifically. strawberryshaunie Kathy writes: I think, at first, Voldemort thought that it was the blood protection that screwed up his curse. Which it did, really. I think, personally, not to mean that I'm right, necessarily, that the force of the rebound curse caused something to mark Harry's forehead. JKR let us think that it was caused by the curse itself, or a blast from the house wreckage, perhaps, but there is no doubt that Harry is sharing some part of Voldemort. Since we're are being told about horcruxes, I am assuming that this will go somewhere. No one knows what happens when a soul is split so many times, no one knows what the effects would be in a living horcrux, and no one knows what the effects might be to a rebound killing curse because it has never happened. Making a horcrux seems to consist of a spell that encases the soul part after it has already been split. Voldemort had split his soul at least twice at GH before trying to kill Harry. I don't think he caused a horcrux intentionally. I think it was a fluke. I also think that the mere fact of carrying the last piece of soul, other than the one in Voldemort, is what gives Harry "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." The scar "marks him as Voldemort's equal." If he is a horcrux, he is his equal. In some ways he is Voldemort. He appears to have the ability to prevent Voldemort from possessing him fully because of the love of his friends, and if he sacrificed himself to protect his friends, it would be the final piece of Voldemort destroyed. He would then be gone for good. Voldemort might be curious about Harry, but he believes that the situation has been neutralized by the sharing of blood. I think Snape has several reasons for being sent to Voldemort. He must keep him distracted from Harry by convincing Voldemort that he has no special abilities, has no particular power and is just lucky, attempt to discover the locations of Voldemort's horcruxes, and at the end either kill Voldemort, if Harry doesn't, or kill Harry, if Voldemort doesn't. I'm thinking that either Ron or Hermione will kill Snape, or at the moment of Voldemort's true death, all of the Death Eaters that are marked will be killed by their marks. I think that Snape is in place as an assassin. I do not think that he will ever get an Order of Merlin. At any rate, that is how I figure it. I haven't seen too many theories on how it will all end yet. Anybody else want to take a guess as to how the plot winds up in book 7?? KJ From juli17 at aol.com Sun Aug 21 07:25:55 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:25:55 EDT Subject: Does Snape hate Dumbledore? Message-ID: <90.6448a5f7.30398683@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138276 Valky wrote: "On my first read of HBP, I'll full admit, that the hatred and repulsion etched on his face *instantly* reminded me of this moment in POA. It was my first thought.. 'he never got over it then, even after finding out he was wrong..' Yeah I absolutely bought it. The canon is there. Alla and Larry are spot on, IMO." "I would go as far as to say we have this particular question 'Could he really *hate* the old man?' thrown fair in our faces all through the series and theres anvil sized canon in OOtP." "DD admits this very mistake and he is even seen apparently making it AGAIN, all in the same chapter. Oh yeah, its there. In Dumbledore's speech: first he says Sirius is too mature and wise to take Snapes goading to heart.. and hands up who thought he was right?... yeah I thought so. Alright, hands up who just *trusted* that he knew this... Yeah see most of us, No? We were just left with trusting him... But then he turns around and says 'Oh yes the Occlumency lessons, an old mans mistake, I thought that Snape could put aside his old resentments.. But NO he didn't." Valky looks around at Alla and smiles, "Still trust me..?" ;D and with that she hoists herself back to the other side of the fence.. for now.. Julie says: My problem with the Snape hating Dumbledore theory is still Snape's inconsistent behavior on the Tower. If Snape hated Dumbledore and was thrilled to be getting rid of him, then he wouldn't just look at DD with "hatred and revulsion" etched on his face, he'd put it into words. Snape has never had any problem outlining his perceived deficiencies of others, as we witness repeatedly in his interactions with Harry and Sirius, among others. Nope, I can't quite buy Snape's brief "hatred and revulsion" look as an indication of his feelings for DD. Much too minimal a response for our snarky Potions/DADA master, who also rarely misses an opportunity to call attention to his own perceived superiority. ESE!Snape would have been all over that, IMO. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Sun Aug 21 07:46:56 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:46:56 -0700 Subject: WARNING!!! Diskworld Leakage!!! (Unrepentently OT and Firmly TIC) Message-ID: <000901c5a624$873d4460$482fdcd1@katmac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138277 I believe I may have discovered another case of LEAKAGE from Terry Pratchett's diskworld (GASP!!!) into the world of Harry Potter! Poking about in the HP Lexicon, I discovered that the gamekeeper who preceded Hagrid was named (OH HORROR!!!) Ogg. Could this interloper be a member of Nanny Ogg's exuberantly extended family??? Further, there now appears to be evidence that Harry himself has spent some time at Ankh-Morpork's Unseen University (under an assumed name, of course). Will somebody please call Rita Skeeter? If this sort of thing continues, perhaps some kind soul will introduce Remus Lupin to Sgt. Angua Von Uberwald of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch? It's so nice when couples have things in common... --Gatta (!!!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Sun Aug 21 07:52:18 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:52:18 EDT Subject: Hagrid/DD/Lord Snape (was Re: Sleeping Snape Distrusted by all) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138278 jazmin wrote: However, what surprises me is that while noone would believe things Harry said before, the OotP is too quick to believe him this time. Even with Snape fleeing with the DEs with Malfoy, the only person not a DE to witness Snape killing Dumbledore was Harry. A kid. Seems too easy for people to believe Harry so quickly. Julie says: I thought this went over too easily too, especially with McGonagall. She has worked with Snape sixteen years, sometimes closely, and even seemed to bond at moments over certain things like calling Lockhart on his supposed DADA talents. They all accepted him as one of them long enough to at least be *surprised* by his apparent defection. Yet, I'm more interested in the exception to this rule--Hagrid. Why did Hagrid react differently than the others, to the point of protesting Harry's version more than once (and, to Harry's mind, suspecting it was likely Harry was concussed and confused about what he saw)? Even MORE interesting, why, once everyone else has accepted Harry's story, do we at this point not get Hagrid expressing some acceptance of Snape as betrayer? Hagrid does show up again, yet never mentions Snape. Does anyone else find this suspicious? Larry wrote: Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a life unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging or destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I cannot understand how we can have gotten to know Dumbledore as we have and believe for a second that he would sacrifice a human soul for any reason. Let alone for so craven a thing as the placement of a spy. Julie says: To me, the key word is UNJUSTIFIABLY. If there was justification for Snape taking DD's life--if DD was already as good as dead, and Snape killed DD at his request because DD's death would best serve the cause of defeating Voldemort, then Snape's soul would not be split or damaged, correct? That's the way I read it anyway. That "take a life unjustifiably" leaves some wiggle room. Sue said: Snape is a bully to the kids, yes. He seems to get on okay with the rest of the staff, though in this last book they express doubts (but only near the end, after he's gone). In the past he's been a team player on staff, e.g. in CoS, but mostly seems to be pretty much a loner. If he was a Muggle, he'd be working in a chemistry lab somewhere, doing research and being rude to anyone who bothered him, going home to his boring flat and maybe a cat, and cooking pasta for one before bedtime. Or he'd be the university head of faculty whom staff and students avoided unless absolutely necessary. I don't think he has what it takes to be head honcho on a large scale and he's bright enough to know this. Voldemort was what he was right from the beginning, as we see in HBP. IMO, it's just a bit late for Snape to be going for world domination, if that's what he wanted. Julie says: I agree. Snape reminds me of Gregory House, the brilliant TV doctor who would prefer to treat his patients without actually having--ick!--contact with them (because they all lie anyway). I think Snape would prefer to teach his students without actually having contact with them, if only it could be arranged! Like House, Snape is a misanthrope. He'd rather be alone in his dungeon room or in his claustrophic sitting room surrounded by his books and potions, than with others. So what does he want with WW domination? He'd be more than happy just to be left alone, as long as his genius is well recognized. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 08:19:31 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:19:31 -0000 Subject: That Night at *Godric's* Hollow...and more Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138279 We all want to know exactly what happened the night Harry got his scar. (Don't we?) Mostly, we want specifics as to why Harry survived and Voldemort didn't. I think we have enough canon to sketch the answer. (And it fits nicely with the notion that CoS almost gave too much away, too.) Is this new? Probably not very. (I am standing on the shoulders of too many posters to cite. Thanks.) But it might be useful anyway. I went trolling through my memories (oh, for a Pensieve!) of the books and the books themselves and found myself drawn back to CoS, specifically events starting in Hagrid's cabin with Dumbledore's suspension. He carefully announces that he will have a presence at Hogwarts until "none here are loyal" to him. He goes on to add, "You will also find that help will be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." In the Chamber, Harry defies Diary Revenant Tom Riddle by comparing him unfavorably to Dumbledore, and even paraphrases what Dumbledore said in Hagrid's hut: "He's not as gone as you might think!" Harry is "speaking at random, wanting to scare Riddle, wishing rather than believing it to be true?" On the heels of this statement, Fawkes appears with the Sorting Hat. Fawkes handicaps the Basilisk, but it is still a threat. And there is still the revenant to deal with, too. Harry puts on the Sorting Hat and is silently pleading for help when a sword very helpfully materializes. He manages to kill the Basilisk. Fawkes's tears heal his injury from the fang and its venom. He plunges the Basilisk fang into the diary without making a conscious choice to do so. It works. Both Basilisk and revenant are history. Again. In his office, Dumbledore thanks Harry for his "real loyalty," saying, "Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." Dumbledore assuages Harry's doubts about any similarities between himself and Tom Riddle, pointing out that the sword bears the name of Godric Griffindor and that Harry's ability to pull it out of the hat is proof positive that Harry is a true Griffindor. In CoS, Harry is twelve years old and facing a very powerful evil wizard (not to mention the Basilisk) while trying to save a fellow student even younger than himself. In each of the books he triumphs or at least survives using a combination of resources, with courage always at the forefront. We are not privy to the very first incident wherein Harry triumphs over or survives an attack by Dark forces; it happens at Godric's Hollow, and his mother (one who has defied the Dark Lord thrice) is the one who triumphs, while Harry is the one who survives. Fawkes's appearance in Chamber was due to Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore. How? Does any student who expresses intense loyalty to Dumbledore get a visit from Fawkes? Does Fawkes bring the Hat every time this happens? Does each visit involve a magical artifact appearing out the the Hat? Or were Harry's loyalty, courage and need the prerequisites? What sort of magics were in place that could result in the unexpected advantages Harry benefitted from in the Chamber? In the post-HBP MuggleNet/Leaky Cauldron interview, JKR specifically refers to "the caliber of Lily's bravery" the night she died. There, in that place which is named for the man whose sword will fall out of a hat in response to her son's extreme need a few years later, Lily chose to stand between her son and Voldemort. She deliberately sacrificed herself, there in Godric's Hollow. (How much would you be willing to bet that the expression on her face at that moment accurately presaged those her son would wear at certain times in the following years?) Why were the Potters hiding out in Godric's Hollow? What is the source (are the sources) of Hogwarts' long-extant protective magics? Part of Harry's help in the Chamber is a result of magics obviously connected with Dumbledore: at least Fawkes's appearance must be read this way. But it seems the help is from sources even greater than Dumbledore. I believe that Godric also left protective magics behind, quiescent in the place he gave his name to as well as the school he helped found. I think Lily called on those magics, probably unconsciously, the night she died, that her courage and her need triggered enchantments still in place since the time of the founders. Maybe her love and sacrifice would have been enough to save Harry that night. Maybe not. But the strength of the protection that came away from the wreckage of that house with Harry was pure Griffindor. It makes even more sense if we consider Lord Voldemort the logical conclusion of a series of choices made within that bloodline starting with Salazar Slytherin himself. (An idea which is one of my current favorites.) Whose magics, whose essences, would react to each other more explosively than Slytherin and Griffindor? (Is Harry a Griffindor descendant on his fathers' side? Maybe. But blood was something Slytherin worried about. Griffindor's heirs were the courageous.) I also believe that I know why Harry ended up with something of Voldemort inside him. While I do not believe that Harry is a horcrux per se, I believe that the magical violence that night was sufficient to send a piece of Voldemort's fractured and tattered soul flying into Harry's forehead. It will be another irony, that Voldemort's ultimate downfall will actually be partly the result of his work in creating the horcruxes. A man with a whole, unfractured soul could not have lost a piece of it to have it come back and be instrumental in his defeat later. (It has happened at least once already, with Harry's ability to speak Parselmouth leading to Diary Revenant Tom Riddle's defeat in CoS.) I think that Harry's ability to love will be sorely tested in the final confrontation (will Snape will be there?). Harry will have to chose between vengeance/justice as he sees it, and love. (I suspect that some of what JKR insists will show the books to be less secular will be a measure of Harry's ability to turn the other cheek.) The protection that has kept him safe all these years has a linchpin placed there by his mother's love. His own love for others strengthens and reinforces it; his hatred and desire for vengeance weakens it. In the final confrontation, only his courage and ability to love will frustrate the "ambition" of that part of Voldemort he carries to turn him into a tool of the man it sprang from. Whew! So, is there anything of value here? Sandy aka msbeadsley From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 10:09:22 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon question re Harry, Snape, and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050821100922.63997.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138280 --- Kristen wrote: > In conversations with or in front of Harry, has > Snape ever referred to > Lily, either by name or by implication? > \ I could be wrong, but I don't recall Lily ever being mentioned in front of Harry by Snape. I am figuring that Snape is too busy downloading on James in front of Harry to even have time to mention Lily laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 21 10:29:57 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:29:57 -0400 Subject: YES Message-ID: <007601c5a63b$479e11b0$afc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138281 colebiancardi: >>Full nasty mode to you, perhaps. We've seen Snape be a heck of lot more nasty. Was he calling Harry names? No. He was telling him a couple of things - no unforgivable curses & blocked again & again, until he can keep his mouth shut & his mind closed. Actually, Snape was not as bad as we've seen him with Harry like he was in books 1-3 - I thought Snape was much more nasty then. CathyD: Funny you should mention that. On a recent re-read of the whole series, I noticed a change in Snape's attitude toward Harry in GoF. He stopped threatening to have him expelled for one thing. Yes, he did threaten him with Veritaserum but to what end? What Snape thought - that Harry had stolen the Gillyweed for the second task and that he had previously stolen the Bicorn Horn and Boomslang Skin - was incorrect. And use of Veritaserum is controlled by the MoM anyway. What I'm saying is the threat changed from getting him out of the school to keeping him in school and working on him there. Why? Because Snape knows the Dark Mark is getting darker every day, what that means, and Harry needs training. IMO, Snape only knows the first part of the prophecy. Whether or not *he* believes Harry is capable of being the one doesn't matter; Snape knows LV believes Harry to be the *one* from the way LV responded to the part of the prophecy he heard. Which means LV will never stop hunting him because LV perceives Harry as a threat. >>Snape wouldn't let anyone curse or hex Harry, and all Snape did was deflect Harry's curses - he did not counterhex Harry. Until Harry got on his weak spot - with the Coward Line - only then did Snape do an wizard equivalent of a *bitch-slap* with the white-hot, whiplike something that hit Harry in the face. CathyD: I agree...and fortunately that's all I have to say. ;) I've never heard the term *bitch-slap* but it certainly applies. A good hard slap in the face that knocks you back and makes you see stars. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Sun Aug 21 10:46:58 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:46:58 -0000 Subject: WARNING!!! Diskworld Leakage!!! (Unrepentently OT and Firmly TIC) In-Reply-To: <000901c5a624$873d4460$482fdcd1@katmac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138282 RATS (!!!). So much for a career as photojounalist. Yahoo did a job on my links again. Here they are, but I think you'll have to do it the hard way. Sorry about that. --Gatta --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kat Macfarlane" wrote: > I believe I may have discovered another case of LEAKAGE from Terry Pratchett's diskworld (GASP!!!) into the world of Harry Potter! Poking about in the HP Lexicon, I discovered that the gamekeeper who preceded Hagrid was named (OH HORROR!!!) Ogg. Could this interloper be a member of Nanny Ogg's exuberantly extended family??? > Gatta: http://www.us.lspace.org/art/kidby/nankit.jpg > > Further, there now appears to be evidence that Harry himself has spent some time at Ankh-Morpork's Unseen University (under an assumed name, of course). Will somebody please call Rita Skeeter? > Gatta: http://www.us.lspace.org/art/kidby/pondburs.jpg > > If this sort of thing continues, perhaps some kind soul will introduce Remus Lupin to Sgt. Angua Von Uberwald of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch? It's so nice when couples have things in common... > Gatta: http://www.ie.lspace.org/ftp-lspace/images/fan-art/angua.jpg > --Gatta (!!! indeed.) From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 21 10:53:08 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:53:08 -0000 Subject: Discworld leakage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138283 If this sort of thing continues, perhaps some kind soul will introduce Remus Lupin to Sgt. Angua Von Uberwald of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch? It's so nice when couples have things in common Carrot would have something to say about that, I think From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 21 11:00:54 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:00:54 -0000 Subject: Witherwings /was Spinners End and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > Also we have Bucky renamed in hiding. We have an offer to do the same > for the Mayfoys. There seems to be a theme here, but just how far does > it goes? And why does she bring it up at all? I think that DD is > really dead, so I am not going there for him, except that he might come > back later as a phoenix. But why would she bring up the idea of > renaming and hiding (maybe in plain sight) and then not use it for > something more important? Marianne: Perhaps Herself is setting up something to be revealed in Book 7, much as she has mentioned things or people in one book and suddenly, they appear in a later book. I agree, this seems like something that was mentioned too often to simply leave it at that. I am not at all a fan of the idea that DD's death was faked, so I don't think JKR will do a bait and switch of his "corpse." At least, I hope not. However, I wouldn't be surprised to come across a character in Book 7 who has been hidden in the past in some way. And how did DD plan to hide the Malfoys? In a secret location with himself as Secret Keeper? Marianne From cfb3 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 08:48:18 2005 From: cfb3 at yahoo.com (cfb3) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:48:18 -0000 Subject: Who is R.A.B., really? In-Reply-To: <32025905082022135f66b6a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138286 kathy said: > > I think there's a good possibility that, because of the way in > > which it appears on the page, that R.A.B. is a monogram, and > > should be read as "R.B.A.", where the surname initial is given > > prominence, i.e. in the CENTER. Sarah: > Must be the Scholastic version. In the Bloomsbury edition, the RAB > letter is written in plain italic typeface, and is signed just > "R.A.B." cfb3: HP Lexicon has a scan of the note as it appears in the Scholastic edition: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/images/chapters/hbp/c28-rba-note-to-the-dark-lord.gif Even as it appears in the Scholastic edition, I wouldn't say it's likely the signature is a monogram. The signature is no more stylized than the rest of the note, it contains periods, and the "A" is not larger than the "R" and "B" (it's rather the reverse). It is ironic, however, how the initials appear in the name of the file. cfb3 From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 08:56:10 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:56:10 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138287 hg: >I'm perplexed about Fawkes. I don't know where it fits in with >anything; I could speculate that Dumbledore was out there somewhere >being healed? Ceridwen: Which would explain the phoenix song. Sort of like Snape 'singing' over the injured Draco. Which would be an echo, which JKR seems to enjoy doing. Can a phoenix heal the dead? Or a particular dead person, such as its owner? And what about the wrapped body at the funeral? And the spectacular exit? Ceridwen. From anezat at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 12:51:05 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:51:05 -0000 Subject: Potions in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138288 This is the 1st post I've made here, though I have been reading the board for months now. What should we make of the 4 potions mentioned in the 1st potions lesson. Potions is key to HBP just as DADA was important to OOTP. In the 1st lesson Slughorn placed 3 potions in cauldrons - Veritaserum, Love potion, and Polyjuice potion. Then Harry won Felix Felicitas. I see the significance of the Love potion (a constant theme in HBP), the Polyjuice potion (things and people are not what they seem and Malfoy has Crabbe and Goyle take this), Felix enables Harry to be successful in his task (as well as saves his friends on that fateful night), but what about the Veritaserum? Any thoughts on this? Clearly we are to sift through events to discover the truth, but about what? JKR always brings up new and important tools, spells, etc... early in the book and works it through the story. Angie From ragingjess at hotmail.com Sat Aug 20 17:32:59 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:32:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book Titles (was: Occlumency, Snape, Harry's House...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138289 Michelle wrote: > Oh, and I think the title of the 7th book should be "Harry Potter > and How Voldemort Got His *ss Handed To Him By a 17 Year Old Wizard > That He Couldn't Kill As a Baby". Yes! Michelle, I would totally buy that book. In that vein, I propose "Harry Potter and the Wizard Who Clearly Never Read 'Macbeth'." Jessica From inkling108 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 13:54:26 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:54:26 -0000 Subject: Echoes of Machiavelli and the Godfather in Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138290 I have not posted for a while because I have been rereading and ruminating quietly on HBP (now on third readthrough). However, while surfing the web the other day I came across an essay that I think will definitely be of interest to the debate on Snape's motives. Those who believe he is out for himself may especially want to check it out. It's called Machiavelli's Prince Severus and is found here: http://Tazmy.blogspot.com/2005/07/machiavellis-prince-severus-few- years.html I won't repeat it all here (it really is worth a read) but the gist of it is that the events in HBP bear similarity to the a story in Machiavelli's classic study of power politics, The Prince. He tells of one Severus Septimus, emperor of Rome, who came to power by eliminating the two men who stood in his way. One of them was called Albinus. Severus temporarily allied himself with Albinus in order to defeat the other leader, Niger. But it was all a trick and as soon as the opportunity arose he had Albinus killed. Of Severus, Machiavelli says: "I want to show briefly how well he knew how to act the part of both a fox and a lion." If you want to read the original story, The Prince is available online, though in a different translation than the one cited in the essay. The story is found toward the end of Chapter 19: http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/publications/Projects/digitexts/machiavel li/the_prince/chapter19.html Now this may be a heck of a coincidence. However, we know that JKR is a student of history and the classics. We also know that the choice of a name for a character can be significant. IIRC, she has said that there is a reason why Hermoine has the same name as the herione of A Winter's Tale. So I think it is quite possible that she named him Severus with this story in mind. The similarity of Albinus to Albus is pretty wild too (they both mean white). Also the fact that Snape declares himself a prince, rather than, say, a king or a lord, like his supposed master, Voldy. So maybe Severus is in the end on the side of Severus alone. There are a few other things that point in this direction. For example all of the books with the exception of POA have a scene at the end where Harry confronts the villian and the villian goes into a maniacal rant. HBP is no different, and yes, I do think Snape is in full nasty mode (as discussed in a recent thread) when Harry confronts him. But notice one important difference between this and the scenes in the previous books. In all the other scenes the villian proclaims his devotion and service to Lord Voldy (to his future self in the case of Tom Riddle). Snape never mentions Voldy once. It's all about him, Severus: "I, the Half-Blood Prince!" Furthermore, if Snape is trying to lay the groundwork for becoming ruler of the magical world, it is in his interest to cultivate and obligate influential friends. This may explain his willingness to help the Malfoy family. The scene at Spinner's end is reminiscent of the opening scene of the Godfather, with a desperate supplicant distressed about the fate of their child who believes the Don is the only one who could help. Snape displays unusual kindness to Narcissa, offers her a drink, hears her out, says, maybe I can help you. No promise of service is demanded in return, as Snape is not in a position to truly play the Godfather yet. But I think an obligation is implicit in the situation. The Malfoys owe him one now, a big one. In keeping with the sly fox Snape would be the theory that Eggplant, Alla, Valky and others have put forth about why he did not deliver Harry to the Dark Lord -- he wants Harry to do the dirty work of getting rid of Voldy so that he can take over with clean hands. Very Machiavellian, don't you think? Anyway, read the essay if you have time, and kudos to Tazmy for seeing the connection! Back to the book, Inkling From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 14:08:52 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050821140852.65185.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138291 --- delwynmarch wrote: > 2) I did say that Slughorn is not a pedophile. I said that JKR > wrote him AS a possible pedophile, to raise suspicion IMO. I think > she's trying to say: "Caution! Slughorn's liking of some students > is not as innocent as it looks, it's hiding something darker, some > kind of Dark Magic or something." I would respectfully suggest that you're reading more into Slughorn than is actually there, Del. You yourself raised the possibility that your personal experience might be colouring your reaction to him and I won't disagree with you there. To me, JKR wrote Slughorn as a big baby, a me-obsessed individual with no real harm in him, someone who takes a childish delight in his little luxuries and his candied pineapple, his free professional Quidditch tickets and his little annual prezzies from his former pupils. He fancies that he's powerful because he introduces people-who-are-going-to-matter to each other at a young age and then he takes credit for their future success. It's delusional but its harmless and there's no indication that he tries to wangle favours from them professionally or ask for inappropriate things. He's happy being remembered and getting little gifties, and on the whole I'm willing to bet that his former pupils are quite fond of him. I think Lily quite liked him as much as he liked her. He's an elitist but not a snob: he blows off Malfoy pretty effectively and cherishes Hermione's talent. He reaches out to students from all houses - not something we've seen a lot of to date - and the Slug Club is a great place to mingle. I would love to go to one of his Christmas parties. Does Snape like him? He was at his Christmas party. With Snape, that's enough proof for me. Does Slughorn cultivate younger students? I doubt it. Younger students are too unfocussed and unambitious. Slughorn is probably pretty ruthless at culling the herd for up-and-comers. When they're in 5th or 6th year, students are concentrating more on the future and they know what they want to do with their lives. Slughorn's genius lies in his ability to know which students are comers almost before they know themselves. Did James and Sirius belong to the Slug Club? I'm betting they didn't. They had the bright-at-everything quality of good students without the concentrate-on-one-subject-for-a-future-career initiative that certain other students have. Remember, it's not enough to be bright to belong to the Slug Club; you've got to have that special talent and/or drive and/or connections to go all the way. Since both stood to inherit wealth, I think James and Siirus just didn't feel the need for careers and didn't pursue any particular course of studies. How did Dumbledore know it was Slughorn who gave Riddle the info on horcruxes? Process of elimination. Once Dumbledore figured out that Voldemort was effectively immortal through splitting his soul (not sure when, but assume it was after COS) then he sat down and figured out which former professor was in the best position to give Riddle the info. It would have to be a teacher who had the knowledge and who Riddle had wrapped around his little finger. The list was probably a short one. So, I really didn't get any kind of sinister vibe from Slughorn. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 14:20:19 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle Goes Home In-Reply-To: <003801c5a5ee$f540c7b0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> Message-ID: <20050821142020.58982.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138292 > Carodave writes: > When Tom Riddle first visits the Gaunt house, he meets Uncle > Morfin for the first time. He enters the house, and immediately > begins to speak to Morfin...in Parseltongue. How does he know to > do this? I think he figured that all Salazar-descendents spoke parseltongue and if Morfin had simply gaped at him and said "Huh?", then Riddle could say "oops, sorry, wrong hovel" and leave. By responding in the same language, Morfin confirmed that he was indeed a kinsman. Of course, it's entirely possible that the reality of his family's slovenly existence was such a disappointment that Riddle was hoping that Morphin was some squatter who was no relation. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 14:24:04 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:24:04 -0000 Subject: Who taught DADA before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138293 LoonyLunaLupin: So, maybe Voldemort lifted his own curse on the DADA job to give his servant more than one year to do his dirty work at Hogwarts. Assuming, of course that he was in Voldemort's employ when he was firsthired at Hogwarts. IMO it was not Voldemort's curse that killed Quirrel, it was Voldemort himself. Marianne S: My thoughts on Quirrell and the Curse and the fact he was not introduced as "new" might be explained/justified this way: Just-Quirrell was DADA teacher for the year before Harry arrived. By the time he returned for Harry's first year, he was not really himself but "Voldemort-in-Turbin-Quirrell." That way, the curse still applies because we know it was the summer before Harry started that Quirrell met up with Soul-Fragment- Voldemort,and it was after the Gringotts' botched break-in incident that Voldemort took up inhabitance in Quirrell's head/turbin. That would be the first manifestation of the curse, and Voldemort leaving Quirrell to die at the end of Harry's first year would be the second one. Perhaps it really was just an oversight on JKR's part, but I'm satisfied with my interpretation. Marianne S From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 14:34:02 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050821143402.60800.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138294 > Valky replies: > Fabian, you *do* bring up the most intriguing things.. ;D > I think there just might be something in that you know. Because > it's a > strange irony. Snape on the one hand seems quite intent in making > Harry fully aware that learning stealth magic and other auror > skills > should be his priority, and yet he sneers at Harry's choice to > consider these subjects for his NEWT levels. It's odd. > Furthermore Snape is openly derisive regarding Harry's potential as > a stealth Wizard. I'd just like to see what these mismatched signs > add up to. I think it's because in order to be an auror, you've got to have the ambition and the drive to master the subjects necessary to qualify and the discipline to do the job. I think Snape assumes that Harry is like James: broom-jock and BMOC, but not willing to do the real work necessary to be an auror. Kind of like a kid who wants to join M-16 because he sees himself as James Bond rather than because he's genuinely interested in international law and security issues. I also think that's behind Snape's telling Harry he's nothing special in OOTP: fighting the Dark Lord is going to be hard, terrifying work and Harry can't just get by on his charm and good flying skills. (I'm also sure it gave Snape the willies when it became increasingly clear that Harry was Dumbledore's favourite and that Dumbledore wouldn't let Harry hear certain info in OOTP because he didn't want him to surrender boyhood yet. In Snape's opinion, this was not doing the Chosen One any favours at all.) Snape has made it abundently clear why he's rough on Harry: he said in POA that the other teachers cut him slack and that he doesn't. Whether this is actually true or not (Snape certainly believes it's true and I think there may be something in it, although not as much as Snape thinks), it is consistent with Snape's methods of trying to teach Harry occlumency. "Let's see how well you do without Miss Granger walking you through your homework, Potter!" Now if Lily and Snape were friends and he saw first-hand in NEWT potions that Lily had the drive to master a difficult subject, I can see that he's disappointed that her son doesn't have his mother's talent. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 14:32:51 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:32:51 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138295 hg: > >I'm perplexed about Fawkes. I don't know where it fits in with > >anything; I could speculate that Dumbledore was out there somewhere > >being healed? > > Ceridwen: > Which would explain the phoenix song. Sort of like Snape 'singing' > over the injured Draco. Which would be an echo, which JKR seems to > enjoy doing. Can a phoenix heal the dead? Or a particular dead > person, such as its owner? > > And what about the wrapped body at the funeral? And the spectacular > exit? hg: I don't think a phoenix can heal the dead, but I've got no quote to back that up. But oh yes, I would be willing to bet that the song wasn't a lament over the dead but a healing song -- especially if Dumbledore wasn't dead at all. He could be healing Dumbledore (or Slughorn!) from the effects of the potion; he could be healing Dumbledore later, after the death scene, as we assume he's been ailing anyway. His absence from Dumbledore's side is SO suspicious. I'll have to look at the book again; I want to see the times we hear Fawkes singing and what is going on elsewhere. Do we hear the phoenix song in the office? Is the song the same or different? As for the phoenix rising from the flames, remember how Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix? He could have sent it there... I think you're right that we really need to be examining Fawkes' role in this. The body: we know Hagrid moved a body, and then carried a body to the table at the funeral. Something could have been transfigured to appear to be Dumbledore's body, it would have had to convince Harry and Hagrid (and everyone else) at the base of the tower, for I'm sure Hagrid would have to be equally convinced as Harry of Dumbledore's death. Again, then, the wrapped body at the end does not irrefutably mean it's Dumbledore's dead body, or any dead body for that matter, right? For example, Barty Junior transfigured his father's body into a bone... What do you think? hg. From editor at texas.net Sun Aug 21 14:42:54 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:42:54 -0500 Subject: Snape & Ron--chess games (was Potential Chess Pieces References: Message-ID: <002e01c5a65e$9fc435e0$0358aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138296 I'm sorry, Prep0strus, this has nothing to do with your chess lineup, but it triggered a thought. I dimly remember someone eons ago cast the books as one long chess game, parallelling the chess game in the first book. That's all I remember. In that chess game, Ron sacrificed himself so Harry could continue. Question: in the "chess game" of the books, is that not what Snape has just done? From what he's done, there is no returning, even if Harry "wins." And Snape does not even have the luxury of being mourned; it had to be done too convincingly. Thoughts? I've been unable to keep up with the discussion, apologies if this was hashed out only last week, etc. ~Amandageist From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 14:48:44 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:48:44 -0000 Subject: Rereading books. Harry is the Sorcerer's Stone--DUH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138297 vmonte: P220, SS "The ancient study of alchemy is concerned with making the Sorcerer's Stone, a legendary substance with astonishing powers. The stone will transform any metal into pure gold. It also produces the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal." Isn't Harry kind of like the metal that was transformed into gold due to what happened at Godrics hollow? If Harry was accidently turned into a horcrux you could also say that Harry represents the Elixir of Life to Voldemort. Horcrux!Harry makes Voldemort immortal. Another thought comes to mind. Could Snape be interested in acquiring the powers that Harry received from Voldemort? Just a thought. Maybe Snape is the "Golden Snitch." Does Snape want to be turned into gold? Reasons why Snape may have been at GH and/or suspected that Harry may be a Horcrux: P126, SS "It happened very suddenly. The hooked-nosed teacher looked past Quirell's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead." I wonder what Snape thinks about this scar? Doesn't he know a lot of dark magic? If he was at GH he would have first hand knowledge of what happened to Harry. P193-194, The Dueling Club, CoS "Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down, and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked too...Malfoy raised his wand quickly and bellowed, "Serpensortia! ...Snape too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it." Did Snape just test his pet Horcrux!Harry theory on Harry? If Snape believed that Harry might have some of Voldemort's powers what better way to test him? P333, CoS "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunder struck. "It certainly seems so." P219, SS "Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel!" I could see Snape being interested in learning what Dumbledore learned from Flamel. I can also see him being interested in the 12 uses of dragon's blood. Is this part of the reason why he wanted to get close to Dumbledore? P221, SS "Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times, he wondered whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible to Harry. Could Snape possibly know they'd found out about the Sorcerer's Stone? Harry didn't see how he could--yet he sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds." I wonder if Snape bothered to tell Dumbledore that Harry knew about the stone? From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 21 15:03:03 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 21 Aug 2005 15:03:03 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1124636583.17.76915.m30@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138298 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 21, 2005 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 15:29:12 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:29:12 -0000 Subject: Why Snape did not take Harry to LV /Snape and Dark Arts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138299 "clarinut76" wrote: > I think he [Snape] adores the Dark > Arts because of their great power > and mystery. [ ]I can't imagine > Snape wanting to be a new Dark Lord. That does not compute, to me the above seems entirely contradictory. And anyway, I can't imagine that Snape's ultimate dream is to become the second banana to anyone, not to Dumbledore and not even to Voldemort; he wants to call the shots. > I don't think Snape is in this for himself. I must disagree, generosity of spirit and concern for his fellow man has never struck me as Snape's overriding personal characteristic. Eggplant From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 15:49:07 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:49:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <20050820225753.91391.qmail@web60413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138300 Larry now: Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a life unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging or destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I cannot understand how we can have gotten to know Dumbledore as we have and believe for a second that he would sacrifice a human soul for any reason. Let alone for so craven a thing as the placement of a spy. Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no one, there is no inner circle. Voldemort is the only chess master here, it is his utterly ruthless willingness to sacrifice any one or anything to get what he wants that marks him as the Dark Lord. For Dumbledore to sacrifice a soul, any soul, would be to have him use the means of the enemy, putting him on the road to becoming the enemy. Remember, it is our choices that makes us who we are. And if we choose to act as the Dark Lord, we will become as the Dark Lord. A choice Dumbledore would never make, and a path he would never follow. vmonte: Nice post Larry, I completely agree. It would not be in Dumbledore's character to ask this of Snape. Dumbledore's been trying to keep Snape away from the DADA position for years because of his fear that it would tempt Snape back to the dark side. (Snape must have really forced Dumbledore's (dead) hand to get the DADA position in the last book--BTW.) Voldemort is ruthless and would ask anything from his DEs including having them cut off their own arm. Dumbledore would never ask Snape to cause more damage to his soul. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I agree that this would make him as bad as Voldemort. Vivian From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 21 15:55:03 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:55:03 -0000 Subject: DD definitely dead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138301 >Ceridwen: >I still cling to *my* baby, that Dumbledore was already dead, and is >only temporarily alive due to Harry's double 'rennervate' and his >plea. Second favorite possibility, that he was dying already, >noticeable evidence in the Tower chapter, and the time had passed >where intervention would be possible. But, I like your Slughorn >theory, too. Maybe our two babies could play together for a while, >at least until book 7 comes out? Sorry to shoot your babies down, but doesnt DD say in GoF that "no spell can reawaken the dead". This ought to put an end to all the DD-was-already-dead-and-came-back-to-life speculation.... Try going after the faked death scenario instead. Elyse (who believes that DD is well and truly gone) From merpsiren at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 15:23:24 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:23:24 -0000 Subject: Who is R.A.B., really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138302 > kathy said: > > > I think there's a good possibility that, because of the way in > > > which it appears on the page, that R.A.B. is a monogram, and > > > should be read as "R.B.A.", where the surname initial is given > > > prominence, i.e. in the CENTER. Kris: JKR was asked about R.A.B. in an interview from 16 July 2005... you can read the full interview here... http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/070 5-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm MA: R.A.B. JKR: Ohhh, good. [All laugh.] JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory? MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. JKR: Have you now? MA: Uh-oh. [Laughter.] JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. MA: And perhaps, being Sirius's brother, he had another mirror ? JKR: [drums fingers on soda can] MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius's mirror ? JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.] MA: Let the record note that she has drummed her fingers on her Coke can in a very Mr. Burns-like way. [Laughter.] Kris. From ellcam at cox.net Sun Aug 21 13:59:46 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:59:46 -0400 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) References: Message-ID: <004b01c5a658$96ce1bf0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138303 Valky said: Snape does not *know* Harry is *the* "One" full stop. He only knows "Harry is the one with the power" because he has only heard half the prophecy. He could still conclude that the power is the answer, and not the boy. Snape is into "power" like that, being a Slytherin and all. Yes, the power bit is interesting. Then does Snape think both LV and DD are mistaken fools to accord Harry with such power? If so, this definitely supports the supposition that Snape is his own man and is using both LV and DE to determine how to defeat LV, simply for the sake of glory. Following this line of argument then, Snape has taken what he can from Harry and DD and as an opportunist is moving over to the DE camp to learn what he can from them. As an aside, do we know of any information Snape has passed onto the Order as a spy? Rachel From ginny343 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 15:47:36 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:47:36 -0000 Subject: Snape & Ron--chess games (was Potential Chess Pieces In-Reply-To: <002e01c5a65e$9fc435e0$0358aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138304 Amanda Geist wrote: > In that chess game, Ron sacrificed himself so Harry could continue. > Question: in the "chess game" of the books, is that not what Snape has just > done? For those who believe that one reason Dumbledore had to die was so Harry would have to take a seriously active role in getting rid of Voldemort. I would say Dumbledore is the one who sacrificed himself so Harry could continue. Ginny From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 21 15:50:00 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:50:00 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Was: Hermione and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138305 >Alla: >I also think that since Snape was the one who took this Vow in the >first palce, he is the one who should be responsible for >consequences of the said Vow, NOT Dumbledore. >I don't remember Narcissa FORCING Snape to take the Vow. I mean, she >was pleading, but Snape took it by his own choice. Elyse: Come on! What choice did he have? After being given the third degree and successfully defending his *true* loyalty to Bellatrix, was he really supposed to say "No Im not going to take a UV, I dont care if your son dies and DD remains alive" Bellatrix would have pounced on that in a millisecond! She had already said something like "He says hell try. Its so easy to say that".. sorry cannot provide exact canon. Anyway, the whole situation, at least in Bellatrix's eyes was a test of Snapes loyalty. And DDsMan!Snape would have had to keep his cover here.. >Wouldn't it be fun to read the Diaries of Snape after the 7th book >is >released? Of course keeping a diary might not be very Snapeish, but >still. >/Fabian I think this is a marvellous idea!!! I mean ESG!Snape is the most complex multilayered character in the whole series. I think a spinnoff to flesh him out would be very interesting. maybe we could even manage to find out what was behind the Married!Snape quote of JKRs.... Elyse From ellcam at cox.net Sun Aug 21 13:46:28 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:46:28 -0400 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) References: Message-ID: <004401c5a656$bb52a100$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138306 Valky said: I do agree that Snape really DOES think Harry is mediocre, but I am also absolutely certain that in Harry's latest year Snape was definitely poking his hooked nose into Harry's thoughts for a reason. And it wasn't to reassure himself that Harry was mediocre. In short I would assume from your argument Rachel, that you could too imagine that Snape *wants* to be the Hero of the story. To my mind, this is the only thing that canon on Snapes attitude to Harry's Auror ambition does *not* contradict from some angle. Yes, certainly, we are agreeing here Valky. I hadn't thought prior to this that Snape was searching Harry's mind for clues on how to defeat LV himself, but I can see now that is probable. Perhaps Snape expects Harry to die, then future plans are irrelevant. Or perhaps Snape could care less about Harry's plans for the future. Harry would not have been in Potions in HBP if Snape had been teaching it-maybe Snape is simplistic in his attitude toward Harry's career choice and does not want Harry to have anything that Harry wants because he hates Harry. If Snape is a glory hound (and I do think he is) then he would not want Harry to be an auror,which could be another venue for Harry's popularity in the ww. I am most anxious to see how Snape is revealed in the next book. Rachel. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 17:39:23 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:39:23 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (but maybe not 100%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138307 Eggplant wrote: "Yes that's true, in fact the only hope Snape lovers have is if Dumbledore is not really dead and the entire climax of book 6 was all just a colossal hoax or practical joke; but if we learn in book 7 that it's true then millions of people will be storming bookstores demanding their money back. There is no way a plot twist like that could produce a satisfactory book." Del replies: 1. Just because YOU wouldn't be satisfied with such a book doesn't mean that nobody else would. 2. You're the one who keeps reminding us that JKR has no duty towards her readers. If millions of readers are disappointed after Book 7, so what? Nobody forced them to buy any of the books. Eggplant wrote: "By the way, I predicted right after book 4 came out that Dumbledore would die at the end of book 6; I also predicted Harry would die at the end of book 7. " Del replies: Like many other people, including me. But you also predicted that Harry would turn into Dirty!Harry in HBP, and would start kicking behinds. You've now transferred that prophecy to Book 7, I've noticed. Eggplant wrote: "Right again, but when one character has a look of extreme insane hatred on his face when he murders another character it's not terribly difficult to deduce what that character is feeling." Del replies: Good for Harry that DD didn't actually die when Harry was force-feeding him the Cave Potion, then. I just don't get it why you have to be so condescending and hurtful with people who don't share your opinion... Del From ellcam at cox.net Sun Aug 21 14:11:15 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:11:15 -0400 Subject: Witherwings /was Spinners End and Dumbledore References: Message-ID: <005e01c5a65a$320c6df0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138308 Marianne: > And how did DD plan to hide the Malfoys? In a secret location > with himself as Secret Keeper? Doesn't DD say that LV can't find them if he thinks they are dead? (Don't have my copy handy). Rachel From tonet_valdez at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 15:56:10 2005 From: tonet_valdez at yahoo.com (Mary Anne Valdez) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:56:10 -0000 Subject: About the books - I need help here please!!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138309 Hello guys, as you know, I'm a harry potter fan and I don't intend to destroy your interests on Harry Potter books, and I don't intend to destroy mine, too. So please help me. I've read the books 1 to 4 , and quite a few times. I honestly enjoyed all these 4 books and especially the 4th, Goblet of Fire. So when I finished reading GoF, I was really excited about book 5. As I started reading Order of the Phoenix, the first few chapters quite disappointed me. The story was dull, slow-paced and quite predictable. Unlike the first 4 books, there were amazing twists in the story, and you can really say the author was really creative. But as for the order of the phoenix, I was really shocked, more in a disappointed way..I want all your opinion on this..I don't want to believe on the hoax about JK Rowling I've heard about her. I love JK Rowling and I want to bring back my trust on her (as if).. (sorry for my poor English).. That's why I'm having second thoughts about reading the Half-Blood Prince. Yes, I haven't read it yet, and I want to read book reviews about the 6th book. But I can't avoid spoilers and I don't want them. I've stopped reading your messages because of some spoilers, and I want to ask your HONEST opinion about the book. Please let me know, if this HBP is a must read. Thank you for your help.. "Mary Anne Valdez" From merpsiren at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 16:26:11 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:26:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's plan to send Snape closer to Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138310 Many poster have suggested that the only reason Snape has never been offered the DADA position is that Dumbledore is afraid the lure of the Dark Arts would be too great for Snape. Certainly this is the theory floated in the books and mentioned by Snape himself to Bellatrix in HBP Spinner's End. I suggest there is a greater reason Snape has not been allowed to take up the post. Protection. We know that Sybill Trelwaney is kept at the school not for her amazing teaching abilities, but because she was the source of the prophecy. In the hands of Voldemort she would be in grave danger. When Umbridge fires Trelawney in OotP Dumbledore steps in and insists Trelawney stays in residence at Hogwarts. In HBP Trelawney is repeatedly in DD's office threatening to leave if Firenze stays. Once more, DD has to protect Trelawney by insisting she keep her position (but DD is not disclosing to Trelawney the real reason she must stay, as she doesn't even know she made the prophecy). We are told in HBP that there really is a curse on the DADA position since Tom Riddle applied for the position as a young man. Since that time, DD has been unable to keep the position filled for longer than 1 year. So, going back to Snape... if Snape is now loyal to DD the only way to offer him prolonged protection at Hogwarts would be to have him teach ANY position other than DADA. Not only for the protection of Snape, but perhaps to teach Harry some valuable lessons in the mean-time? I think Snape was allowed to accept the position finally in HBP only because DD knew that at the end of the year Snape would have to leave the castle (becuase of the curse) and that was DD's plan from the start. For whatever reason the time is now right to send Snape (still as a spy) back to the fold of Voldemort. And what better way to send him off than with the death of DD to convince Voldemort of Snape's loyalties. Dumbledore is truly a master-planner as I am convinced that everything that was planned for Snape in HBP went off without a hitch! "merpsiren" From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 16:56:16 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Snape have a choice or not? Was: Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050821165616.830.qmail@web60419.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138311 --- ellecain wrote: > >Alla: > > > >I also think that since Snape was the one who took > this Vow in the > >first palce, he is the one who should be > responsible for > >consequences of the said Vow, NOT Dumbledore. > > >I don't remember Narcissa FORCING Snape to take the > Vow. I mean, > she > >was pleading, but Snape took it by his own choice. > > Elyse: > Come on! What choice did he have? > After being given the third degree and successfully > defending > his *true* loyalty to Bellatrix, > was he really supposed to say "No Im not going to > take a UV, > I dont care if your son dies and DD remains alive" > Bellatrix would have pounced on that in a > millisecond! > She had already said something like "He says hell > try. Its so easy > to say that".. sorry cannot provide exact canon. > Anyway, the whole situation, at least in Bellatrix's > eyes was a test > of Snapes loyalty. > And DDsMan!Snape would have had to keep his cover > here.. Larry Now: Say what you will about old Severus, he is certainly a paragon of self control. He has exhibited little flares of anger it is true, but they cost him nothing really. But here you would have him put his very life outside of his control, and why? Petty taunts from Bellatrix?, this is a childish response from such a tightly controlled, thoroughly adult character. This loss of control could cost him his life, this is not the Snape that I know. Adults that I know could care less about jibes from those we loath. Of course Snape had a choice, he could have ignored her request, or even refused outright. What was the downside, Bella would think poorly of him?, and her opinion he values as highly as he values his own life? Even if a wand were poised, ready to deliver the AK, he could still say no. "Then you should have died." roared Black. "Died rather than betray your friends, as we would have done for you." POA Am. ed. P. 375. There are some things worse than death, such as preserving one's own life at the expense of doing something so horribly wrong. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 17:00:25 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:00:25 -0000 Subject: Canon question re Harry, Snape, and Lily In-Reply-To: <20050821100922.63997.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138312 Laurie: I could be wrong, but I don't recall Lily ever being mentioned in front of Harry by Snape. I am figuring that Snape is too busy downloading on James in front of Harry to even have time to mention Lily Marianne S: I don't think Laurie is wrong about Snape never mentioning Lily, but I believe there is a lot more to it than simply not having time. It is my hypothesis that whatever feelings Snape had for Lily, whether Love, Friendship, Respect, or a combination, causes him to willfully ignore the Lily that's in Harry. Snape can plainly see that Harry has more compassion and less ego than James did, but chooses to twist situations like the occlumency revealings and the entrance to the Great Hall in book 6, to make Harry out to be just like he saw James. I believe that if Snape were to consciously recognize the Lily within Harry, he would feel perhaps personal anguish and compassion toward Harry... and this compassion could make Snape feel as weak as he did when he sought forgiveness from Dumbledore. I posit that Snape feels much stronger just being rancorous and vitriolic toward Harry because of James than anything he would feel because of Lily. Marianne S.....somewhere out there? From merpsiren at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 17:03:43 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:03:43 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Was: Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138313 > Elyse: > I think this is a marvellous idea!!! I mean ESG!Snape is the > most complex multilayered character in the whole series. > I think a spinoff to flesh him out would be very interesting. > Maybe we could even manage to find out what was behind > the Married!Snape quote of JKR's.... In post 137926 I suggest a theory that some like, others hate... but I believe ties up a lot of loose ends, as well as addresses the Married!Snape bit. But beware... only read it with an open mind! -Kris From anezat at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 17:03:56 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:03:56 -0000 Subject: A possible Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138314 I've been thinking about the Horcrux mystery and perusing the pages of COS for ideas. What about the award for special services to Hogwarts that was given to Tom Riddle for his part in catching (framing) Hagrid as the one who opened the Chamber? It was mentioned several times in the book and it might be an important enough link to Hogwarts for LV, but of course my question is could he have killed someone to perform the spell and create this object as a Horcrux? And who would he have killed? Angela From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 17:27:02 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:27:02 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138315 > Betsy Hp: > No, I understood you completely and my entire response was couched in > that vein. I wasn't speaking at all about the validity of Slughorn > being an *actual* pedophile, I was speaking of him as a > representative of, just as you were. > > My view is that Slughorn is more representative of someone interested > in talented young adults then a predator of children. Fenrir, on the > other hand, as an eater of young children (who then tries to take > those children into his pack) is the more obvious pedophile stand- in, > IMO. > a_svirn: You know this joke about the difference between pedagogue and paedophile? That the paedophile is the one who actually *loves* children? Why on earth Slughorn should be predatory IF he were to be a paedophile? It would only land him in a big trouble And whether he loves kids in general, or some of them in particular I agree with Del: his, well, fondness, for Harry is indeed expressed by JKR in a very suggestive language. And, as you yourself noted, it does look like she "borrowed" him from Evelyn Waugh's "Scarlet Woman" where homosexual Dean of Balliol "Sligger" never missed an opportunity to pet the Prince of Wales and otherwise shower him with attention. From merpsiren at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 17:14:44 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:14:44 -0000 Subject: A possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138316 Angela wrote: > What about the award for special services to Hogwarts that was > given to Tom Riddle for his part in catching (framing) Hagrid > as the one who opened the Chamber? It was mentioned several > times in the book and it might be an important enough link to > Hogwarts for LV, but of course my question is could he have > killed someone to perform the spell and create this object > as a Horcrux? And who would he have killed? I've thought about this award as a possibilty as well. We know that Voldemort killed 3 people; Tom Riddle, Sr. and parents (grandparents to Voldemort) when he was 16 and still at school, so he had the potential to make 3 horcruxes as early as his sixth year of Hogwarts. And Voldemort would have access to the award while still at school. The only question would be if he valued the award and felt it important enough to create a Horcrux of it. -Kris From MWorth1019 at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 21 17:13:44 2005 From: MWorth1019 at cfl.rr.com (mworth1019) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:13:44 -0000 Subject: question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138317 What does OFH!ESG!DD'sMan!Snape mean, I don't understand the initials... sorry if it is obvious. MWorth1019 From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Aug 21 18:09:08 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:09:08 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) In-Reply-To: <004b01c5a658$96ce1bf0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138318 Rachel: > As an aside, do we know of any information Snape has passed onto the Order as a spy? houyhnhnm: At the beginning of OotP, it seems the Order already knows quite a bit about Voldemort's designs on the prophecy. (Sturgis Podmore guarding the Department of Mysteries, Sirius' mention of "stuff he can only get by stealth", the parchment with what looks like the plan of a building). Dumbledore knows that Voldemort forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy about the diary and that Voldemort's anger was terrible to behold. He also knows a good deal about the Voldemort's relationship with Nagini. It is not stated directly that the information came from Snape, but it seems like information that could only have come from someone able to get very close to Voldemort. If Dumbledore had other spys that deep in Voldemort's camp, then the whole issue of "why Dumbledore trusts Snape" would have to be reviewed. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 18:27:09 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:27:09 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (but maybe not 100%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138319 "delwynmarch" wrote: > Just because YOU wouldn't be satisfied > with such a book [Dumbledore's death > just being a hoax or joke] doesn't > mean that nobody else would. I believe the very first person who would be disappointed with such a book is JKR. > You're the one who keeps reminding > us that JKR has no duty towards her readers. Yes, but she does have a duty not to betray her genius. > you also predicted that Harry would > turn into Dirty! Harry in HBP, and > would start kicking behinds. You've > now transferred that prophecy to > Book 7, I've noticed. Quite true, only now it's not so much a prediction as a wish. > I just don't get it why you have to > be so condescending and hurtful with > people who don't share your opinion I shall strive harder in the future to be just like you who never criticizes anyone or personalizes anything and who's scrupulous politeness makes Dumbledore look like a boor. Eggplant From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Aug 21 18:31:11 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:31:11 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Was: Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: <20050821165616.830.qmail@web60419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138320 Larry: > Of course Snape had a choice, he could have ignored > her request, or even refused outright. What was the > downside, Bella would think poorly of him?, and her > opinion he values as highly as he values his own life? houyhnhnm: If Snape is *not* aware of Voldemort's plan before the sisters came to his house, then what he learns at the very beginning of the interview is that there is a plot involving Draco. A plot involving Draco means a plot against Hogwarts. Snape may feel that he is justified in using any means necessary to obtain information, in that case. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 19:09:47 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Snape have a choice or not? Was: Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050821190948.93975.qmail@web60412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138321 --- houyhnhnm102 wrote: > Larry: > > > Of course Snape had a choice, he could have > ignored > > her request, or even refused outright. What was > the > > downside, Bella would think poorly of him?, and > her > > opinion he values as highly as he values his own > life? > > houyhnhnm: > > If Snape is *not* aware of Voldemort's plan before > the sisters came to > his house, then what he learns at the very beginning > of the interview > is that there is a plot involving Draco. A plot > involving Draco means > a plot against Hogwarts. Snape may feel that he is > justified in using > any means necessary to obtain information, in that Larry now: Any means necessary; do you really mean that. Only a predominantly evil character, a Voldemort for instance, would resort to any means necessary. See my post 138237, the last 3 paragraphs for a more detailed explanation. But in brief, to use the means of the enemy is to become the enemy. Why is the Dark Lord so bad? Because we object to his actions, or means. But if we use those same means, even against him, we will become what we are fighting.And even if we are victorious, all that will have been achieved is that a new Dark Lord has supplanted the old. Not what we originally had in mind, I'm sure. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ShylahM at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 19:13:04 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (Shylah) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:13:04 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD definitely dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <403e946f05082112136808a350@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138322 > Elyse wrote > > Sorry to shoot your babies down, > but doesnt DD say in GoF that > "no spell can reawaken the dead". > This ought to put an end to all the > DD-was-already-dead-and-came-back-to-life speculation.... > > Try going after the faked death scenario instead. > > Elyse > (who believes that DD is well and truly gone) Tanya. While I am not convinced that DD is it. I would like to see someone from the 'good' side faking a death to even things up so to speak. We already have Peter and Crouch jnr. From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Aug 21 19:19:28 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:19:28 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror - Was Re: YES (Did Snape Murder DD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138323 Valky replies: [...] > During the Occlumency lessons Snape makes his long > discourse about weakness and easy prey for the Dark Lord. > Then he says Harry's is not important enough anyway, so he > ought to get over himself, *then* he calls Harry sloppy > and lazy, *and* I noted before, he gets even more > angry at Harry for not repeating his Occlumency > defense (which coincided with his memory of defending Sirius) > and finally in HBP Snape is still making noises about Harry's > incompetence and his [Ha!] intention to become an Auror, all > while secretly (and obviously to me), *studying him* internally > defending Sirius' memory, *then* Snapes final words to Harry > as he runs out of the castle wind back to the same old ground, > You can't beat me without stealth, No Unforgivables houyhnhnm: I would have to go with #1. No, I don't think Snape is scatterbrained exactly, but he is extremely compartmentalized. His hubris in thinking he is in control of the process, when it has begun to take control of him, is what brings about his downfall, IMO. I think the inconsistancies in his treatment of Harry are simply a reflection of that compartmentalization. He cultivates an enmity with Harry. I believe (though I can't prove) that it is done with calculation and deliberation. He *uses* the old resentment against Harry's father to further this enmity. He uses all of his inner demons to create the mental snapshot he wishes to present at a particular time (or the outward lie), like a method actor. He thinks he is in control, but the inner demons end up controlling him. So I think the calculating Snape: 1. Wants to appear to detest Harry and denigrate his abilities. 2. Really does hate Harry as the old resentments take over. The authentic Snape (to the extent he still exists): 1. Recognizes Harry's abilities *and* weaknesses (impulsivity, for instance). 2. Genuinely wants to help Harry overcome his weaknesses. It doesn't work because, for one thing, Snape is hopeless when it comes to dealing with teenagers, but mostly because Harry's outstanding characteristic is his integrity. A person of integrity cannot respond to one role one day and a different role the next. Harry's response to Snape is an integrated one and it is consistant hatred. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 18:53:42 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:53:42 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138324 Betsy, I hear your very good points about Slughorn's victims being too physically old for him to be paralleled to a RL pedophile. However, I already agreed that Slughorn is not a *sexual* predator, so the fact that his victims are sexually mature is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they are emotionally, mentally and especially magically still very young. They are not untrained and innocent children anymore, but they are not fully trained nor adult either. So I still think there is something pedophily-like in the way the old, experienced, powerful wizard collects young souls and maneuvers them to his own ends. But as you described it, it's more of a "vibe" than a direct, straightforward parallel, unlike Greyback for example. Let's just say that Slughorn is someone I would be wary of letting my teenage child get *too* close to, not for his physical safety, but for his emotional one, and even more his magical one in the case of a wizard. Betsy Hp wrote: "I'm assuming that his Christmas party was made up of Slug club members, and everyone at the party seemed to be having a grand time. And people were sending him gifts and autographed pictures, so I'm thinking he was well liked. As to Snape, well he attended the party and he didn't kill Slughorn for throwing an arm around him so in Snape-speak, Slughorn's a bud. " Del replies: LOL! But see, to me, the fact that his alumni still gravitate around Slughorn doesn't necessarily mean that they are comfortable around him. First, there's the fact that many of them *owe* him something for where they are, so they might be there just out of politeness. And second, when I see how harshly he drops anyone he loses interest in, I'm not sure there isn't a silent threat at work behind the scenes: "I'll help you if you're nice with me, but I can destroy your career if you annoy me". That's the other side of using power to help people: you can also use it to destroy them, and I'm not sure old Sluggy would be beyond doing something so petty. Betsy Hp wrote: "I was just saying that I don't think there's anything that speaks to Slughorn being a Death Eater sympathizer. I think he's much more on Dumbledore's side." Del replies: >From what we see when DD and Harry go to hire him, Slughorn is on only one side: his own. Remember that one of his objections to being a teacher again is that he didn't want to be seen as supporting the Order of the Phoenix! Harry had to point out to him that most teachers at Hogwarts are not members, that the two matters are completely separate. Betsy Hp wrote: "Maybe Voldemort *did* think the war would only last one more year. He was winning at the time. There's no reason to think Voldemort was thinking long term." Del replies: The war had already been going on for 10 years, so I'd say there was no reason to think that LV was thinking short term ;-) Betsy Hp wrote: "Yeah, but not *that* well known a pureblood. He wasn't of Black caliber, IOW. (Or at least the Potters have never been spoken of as that sort of family.) (snip) Slughorn isn't interested in mere money. He wants connections and interesting talents." Del replies: I wouldn't assume that the Potters weren't connected simply because they weren't hung up on the pureblood thing and they weren't power-hungry snobs. Remember in OoP, when Draco tries to pretend that his father is well-connected to the OWL examiners, and Neville says that in fact it's his own grandmother who is a friend of Griselda Marchbanks'? Just because the Potters were less showy doesn't mean they had less power. Even poor, blood-traitor, Muggle-fond Arthur Weasley can pull some strings, so I'd bet the Potters had their own not-so-negligeable influence. Del before: "he was a Quidditch star," Betsy Hp answered: "Not enough of one. I don't recall that he was recruited by various quidditch teams." Del replies: Correction: we know that James didn't *accept* any hypothetical offer. But we don't know that he didn't *receive* any offer to become a pro. Not to mention that this was a war time: we don't know how much of a Quidditch League was left. Betsy Hp wrote: "He was popular and smart, but at a school level. Slughorn seems to look beyond school talents for a promising WW career. I bet James could have pulled Hermione caliber grades if he hadn't spent so much energy pranking, but it doesn't sound like he did." Del replies: I always got the impression that both James and Sirius had brilliant grades. They are always talked of as having been excellent students. Del before: "he became Head Boy," Betsy Hp answered: "After a major personal turn around that seems to have surprised everyone and occured only in his sixth year. " Del replies: But sixth year is *precisely* the year when Slughorn seems to make his moves on students... Betsy Hp wrote: "Well no, but Hogwarts isn't the fount of *all* wizarding knowledge." Del replies: Actually, it *is* the fount of most wizarding knowledge. There doesn't seem to be any kind of wizard university. Any further knowledge after Hogwarts is apparently attained by professional training, apprenticeship: Auror, Healer, etc... IOW one has to truly delve into a matter to know more about it. Now, as I said in my previous post, I can understand that DD did delve into the Dark Arts. But I still don't see why Slughorn would have done so. Slughorn is a Potion Master, not a specialist of Charms and Curses. He doesn't seem to have ever been *that* interested in the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake, he's much more interested in the spinning of his web. And he seems to have spent most of his life teaching at Hogwarts. So who told him about horcruxes, when, and *why*? And while we're at it: why were horcruxes a banned subject at Hogwarts? To be banned implies that someone wanted to teach them. Who, and when? Betsy Hp wrote: "And they both strike me as curious," Del replies: I guess that's where the difference comes from: Slughorn doesn't strike me as knowledge-curious. He's people-curious, oh yes, but knowledge? I don't see that. Betsy Hp wrote: "The knowledge itself isn't enough to tip Slughorn into the ESE camp for me. Especially when he seemed to find horcruxes quite repulsive." Del replies: Repulsive?? I completely disagree with you here. Slughorn seems particularly unfazed by the concept of the horcrux. What bothers him are the consequences coming from splitting one's soul, and the reduced existence of one who is kept alive by a horcrux. IOW, he's bothered by the *uncomfort* inherent from creating a horcrux, which is totally in-character for him. But the horcruxes in itself don't repulse him at all. Consider how he talks about them: "It can't hurt to give you an overview, of course. Just so that you understand the term" "It's natural to feel some curiosity about these things... wizards of a certain calibre have always been drawn to that aspect of magic..." "But all the same, Tom... keep it quiet, what I've told - that's to say, what we've discussed. People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know... Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it..." Slughorn doesn't have any problem with horcruxes. He has a problem with killing people - though I wonder if his "do I look like a killer?" is a sign of horror or a sign of guilty conscience, particularly since Tom had *in no way* implied that Slughorn had ever tried to create a horcrux-, and with damaging his own soul and living a half-life. Re-reading this scene made me wonder whether Slughorn had had a personal experience with horcruxes. I wouldn't put it past him to have been interested in them himself in his youth, but to have recoiled when confronted with the consequences for his own soul - he couldn't face hurting himself. It could even be that he actually *knew* someone who had created a horcrux, and who then died and lived a half-life. That could explain why his face "crumpled" when he got to the point of what happens when someone with a horcrux dies. Couple that with the subject being banned at Hogwarts and DD being particularly fierce about that policy, and it all becomes very interesting indeed... Oops, sorry, my mind got into overdrive again :-D Betsy Hp wrote: "I don't see it that way at all. Voldemort, in all his creeping glory, doesn't return until eleven years before Harry's birth, IIRC. And he's fairly quiet for a while." Del replies: Not exactly so, I think. I'm not sure we know when LV actually returned. What we do know is that by the time he is vanquished for the first time, (paraphrase) "the WW had had precious little to celebrate for 11 years", which I take it to mean that it had been at war for 10 years before Harry was born. *Ten years*! Ten years of terror, of DE attacks, of people coming home to find the Dark Mark hovering over their home, of people not knowing who to trust (not even their own young children...), of people being put under the Imperius Curse, being tortured or simply disappearing, of agressive species being unleashed on to wizards and Muggles alike, and so on. And during *all that time*, Slughorn did not ONCE mention that "oh, by the way, LV used to be interested in horcruxes, so maybe, you know..."!? I find that totally inexcusable. We don't know how many people, how many Aurors, how many parents, tried to kill LV or to defend their families from him and were *condemned* to fail because *LV could not be killed*. Think of James Potter: he had *no chance* of killing LV, because even if he destroyed his body, his soul would go on. Betsy Hp wrote: "He raises up, battles ensue and then he's suddenly killed." Del replies: Except that he is NOT killed... If the Aurors had known that LV had been interested in horcruxes, they could have looked for them and destroyed them, so that when LV showed up again, he could be destroyed for good. Instead of that, the whole job is now left to Harry and LV is just as indestructible as ever in the meantime. Betsy Hp wrote: "Slughorn certainly wasn't the only wizard to connect Voldemort to Tom Riddle. Only Dumbledore was brave enough to openly speak of it. (snip) Oh, a heck of a lot of wizards could connect Tom to Voldemort. They chose not to do so. That's why so many refused, or were reluctant, to talk to Dumbledore about Tom Riddle." Del replies: That's not what DD says. He clearly explained that *very few* people ever connected the ugly LV to the handsome Tom Riddle. Though now that I think of it, I'm actually not sure Slughorn made the connection either, maybe it was DD who told him, very recently. Humph, that would put a wrench in my accusation that Slughorn deliberately kept silent about LV's horcruxes, wouldn't it :-) ? I'll have to think more about it. But I can't help but feel that something is very much off with Slughorn. Maybe it's the memory of Crouch!Moody that's influencing me, but I am wary of this new professor who is presented as being apparently so pleasant and harmless, and who is yet sometimes described in terms that still make me uneasy. Del From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Aug 21 19:25:31 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:25:31 -0000 Subject: DD definitely dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138325 Elyse: > Sorry to shoot your babies down, > but doesnt DD say in GoF that > "no spell can reawaken the dead". > This ought to put an end to all the > DD-was-already-dead-and-came-back-to-life speculation.... > > Try going after the faked death scenario instead. > > Elyse > (who believes that DD is well and truly gone) Ceridwen: Yet, there is something a powerful wizard can do to reanimate a corpse. Which is not quite the same thing as reawakening the dead. Just checked Mugglenet's spells, they don't have renervate yet. So went off on tangent to http://www.dictionary.com and found: Renerve: \ (r?-n?rv"), v. t. To nerve again; to give new vigor to; to reinvigorate. (Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ? 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.) (Reinvigorate = To give new life or energy to. Source: The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.) Harry had to perform it twice, then plead with Dumbledore to wake. Which he did. If he wasn't dead, he was very close, IMO. The red spell didn't do anything for him the first time, and was not mentioned as coming out of Harry's wand the second (though it may have and just not been mentioned). Dumbledore was most certainly in a very bad way, described as white, and Draco was described on the tower as turning *nearly* as white as Dumbledore. Inferi are also described as white, as well as bloodless. We didn't see if Dumbledore had any blood (though being newly dead, he might have? *IF* this is correct) I really like my own pet theory. But, like all theories regarding the tower scene, we just don't know. We don't know if Dumbledore would have been able to get better without immediate aid, we don't know if this was one of those potions without antidote, we don't know where Fawkes was, we don't know why Snape's AK knocked Dumbledore over the wall. I'm probably missing something here as well that we don't know. If the death was faked, then why didn't Snape die? Two possibilities: if Ron was wrong about the repercussions of breaking the vow; it acts more like a geas, where the punishment comes back later on instead of at the moment of betrayal of the vow. If the death was faked, why did Fawkes lament? Possibility: healing the stricken Dumbledore? If the death was faked, why did the portrait appear in the headmaster's office? Hint that it shouldn't have: the movement McGonagall made when she saw it. I hadn't recalled that quote, though, and thank you for reminding me! So, if Dumbledore was in any way brought back to animation, it wasn't back to life, but merely an animation of the body. And this raises questions, too. Like, where was Fawkes when he was being forced to drink the potion? And, if he's merely an animated body, how can he discuss with Draco? And know the DEs and Greyback, people Harry doesn't know. And so on. I really do like reading all of the theories, and will happily join in with any of them if I think I have something to contribute. At this point, and until the point that each of us finishes reading book 7, we just have speculation to keep us going. I certainly will be keeping an eye on the faked and substituted death theories, as well as the ones giving proof of Dumbledore being well and truly dead. And everything in between. Ceridwen. From muellem at bc.edu Sun Aug 21 19:29:55 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:29:55 -0000 Subject: question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mworth1019" wrote: > What does OFH!ESG!DD'sMan!Snape mean, I don't understand the > initials... sorry if it is obvious. > > MWorth1019 OFH - out for himself ESG - ever so good ESE - ever so evil DD's man - dumbledore's man TW - top wizard It took me a long time to figure out ESE!Snape, so don't feel bad colebiancardi From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Aug 21 20:45:28 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:45:28 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138327 Sienna: > > Now me: > From what I've read of JK's interview transcripts regarding Snape, it > seems to me that these logical holes that get in the way of Evil! > Snape are just that ? holes. And, like I said before, for me it bears > too much resemblance to other logical holes in character behaviour > and motivation that I had thought to explain away by coming up with > alternative theories about other plot developments. I think the > ambiguity in Snape's character has essentially been leading to this > point in HBP to surprise us (what's more surprising than Harry being > right about Snape after all these years?). I would not be surprised > however, if there is similar backlash, once that has been proven post- > Book 7, by those who wanted and thought they'd found something else > in the books. > > Again, just my opinion and I'd love to be proven wrong because > frankly I find Evil!Snape more than a little boring. > Sienna brings up an excellent point, and one that I think gets to the heart of the Snape debate. Where you stand on the question of Snape seems to relate very strongly to where you stand on two other questions: 1)On how many levels do you believe JKR is intentionally writing, and 2)Your tolerance for contradictions in the plot and themes of the HP saga. I'm not going to argue for one interpretation or the other -- at least not much. I just want to lay out the issue for discussion. It seems to me that for Good!Snape to be the case one must postulate that JKR is writing consciously on multiple levels. In order to argue for Evil!Snape you don't have to necessarily DENY that JKR is operating on multiple levels, but as Sienna points out, Evil!Snape does fit with a straightforward narrative whereas Good!Snape does not. Personally, I am somewhat at sea on this question. I think Sienna is right that the outcome of many subplots, particularly those involving shipping, support the idea that JKR is writing a more straightforward and "obvious" story than many fans have expected or believed. This is further supported by many of her interview statements, particularly her most recent comments where she says (and this is an extreme paraphrase): "It's a childrens' book and people need to just get over it." On the other hand, the outcome of one kind of plot doesn't necessarily herald the outcome of another, and the ultimate proof will be in the seventh book. I confess I am among those who is hoping that things are somewhat more multi-leveled than they appear, but I may well be one of those to whom she is talking when she says it's just a childrens' book and I need to accept that and go on. In terms of your tolerance for contradiction, I think the situation is more complicated. Both Good!Snape and Evil!Snape face a number of plot holes and contradictions. You can either try to solve these holes and contradictions in a way that supports your position or you can simply take the position that the saga will have numerous holes and contradictions regardless of how it comes out. Personally I have a tendency to try and "correct" plot holes and thematic inconsistency, or at least criticize them. I am beginning to believe, however, that the second position is the one that will be proven correct. Sienna makes a marvelous and telling point in her early comments about Voldemort. We have had an emphasis on the importance of choice and JKR's statements about how no one is born evil. But in Voldemort we have a character who seems, from all evidence and appearances, to be genetically evil, a corrupt product of a degenerate and inbred family. Furthermore Dumbledore, the very character who is associated with statements about the power of choice and the importance of trust, seems to relate to him from the very first as a dangerous and deeply flawed child, a child who is in some way corrupt in his very essence. In other words, we have a powerful and glaring contradiction woven into the basic fabric of the narrative, in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main villain is a monster from birth, the son of a poisoned bloodline. Anyway, these are the issues as I see them. Lupinlore From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 21 21:16:54 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD definitely dead In-Reply-To: <403e946f05082112136808a350@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050821211654.21136.qmail@web53314.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138328 > Elyse wrote > > Sorry to shoot your babies down, > but doesnt DD say in GoF that > "no spell can reawaken the dead". > This ought to put an end to all the > DD-was-already-dead-and-came-back-to-life speculation.... > > Try going after the faked death scenario instead. > > Elyse > (who believes that DD is well and truly gone) Tanya. While I am not convinced that DD is it. I would like to see someone from the 'good' side faking a death to even things up so to speak. We already have Peter and Crouch jnr. Luckdragon: I am having great difficulty in believing this death. DD was just too smart to go like that. If anyone could prevent his death from the potion it was Snape, who if I recall correctly told his first year potion students that "he could teach them to put a Stopper on death". He actually saved DD from the effects of the potion while making it look like he killed him. This was all pre-arranged and DD is in hiding, recuperating from his near death experience. BTW:I believe the Phoenix Harry saw arise from the flames at DD's funeral was actually his patronus being sent with a message for Snape or a member of the order who will appear in the next book. --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 21:23:14 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:23:14 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138329 hg replying to two particular points, so major snippage... > Betsy Hp wrote: > "The knowledge itself isn't enough to tip Slughorn into the ESE camp > for me. Especially when he seemed to find horcruxes quite repulsive." > > Del replies: > What bothers him > are the consequences coming from splitting one's soul, and the reduced existence of one who is kept alive by a horcrux. IOW, he's bothered by the *uncomfort* inherent from creating a horcrux, which is totally in-character for him. But the horcruxes in itself don't repulse him at all. Consider how he talks about them: > > "It can't hurt to give you an overview, of course. Just so that you > understand the term" > > "It's natural to feel some curiosity about these things... wizards of a certain calibre have always been drawn to that aspect of magic..." > > "But all the same, Tom... keep it quiet, what I've told - that's to > say, what we've discussed. People wouldn't like to think we've been > chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you > know... Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it..." > > Re-reading this scene made me wonder whether Slughorn had had a > personal experience with horcruxes. I wouldn't put it past him to have been interested in them himself in his youth, but to have recoiled when confronted with the consequences for his own soul - he couldn't face hurting himself. hg: In my reading of that scene, I found him neither repulsed by Horcruxes nor unwilling to make one because of personal discomfort; rather, I find him to be an intellectual (yes, I do!) and so intrigued by knowledge of any complex, even lesser-known magic. My guess, therefore, would be that his academic interest led to his knowledge of Horcruxes. Del, your take on Slughorn as seemingly pedophiliac doesn't bother me -- in fact, I think you point to two very important aspects of him: his gathering together the cream-of-the-crop students, and his secrecy. I believe his motives in the Slug Club serve the students well and without malice; he sees himself as self-appointed mentor to the best of the best (which is simultaneously self-serving and a public service). Although to some he'd be off-putting, to someone like Hermione, he's meeting a long-unmet need. I don't get the impression that it's all name-dropping, after all. As to the secrecy -- well, there are a lot of things he could be concealing, not necessarily wicked. Secrecy can imply past misdeeds without that being the case. Del: > [Dumbledore] clearly explained that *very few* people > ever connected the ugly LV to the handsome Tom Riddle. Though now that I think of it, I'm actually not sure Slughorn made the connection > either, maybe it was DD who told him, very recently. Humph, that would put a wrench in my accusation that Slughorn deliberately kept silent about LV's horcruxes, wouldn't it :-) ? > > I'll have to think more about it. But I can't help but feel that > something is very much off with Slughorn. Maybe it's the memory of > Crouch!Moody that's influencing me, but I am wary of this new > professor who is presented as being apparently so pleasant and > harmless, and who is yet sometimes described in terms that still make me uneasy. hg: I really, really, really don't think that Slughorn connected the dots about Voldemort being Tom Riddle until Dumbledore approached him (offstage) during the summer btw GoF and OoP (as he most certainly must have, seeing as he wasn't able to get the new professor that he wanted and was stuck with Umbridge -- and as Slughorn has been in hiding for a year at beginning of HBP). The implications of him KNOWINGLY sitting on information that could save the wizarding world (and everyone else for that matter) are enormous. It would make him more culpable, I think, than Voldemort himself, and I don't think it likely that JK would introduce a character 6/7 of the way into a very long story who was really the most culpable of all. Can you imagine? Death after death after death, not ever even trying to do anything? Year after year? Most awful of all. Slughorn is smart and observant, but he seems to not connect the dots time and time again in the course of HBP. (Lots of dots to connect after all.) That said, it makes a lot of sense that Dumbledore came to him summer 1995 and said, "look, Voldemort's back, and I really could use your help. You taught Tom Riddle; is there anything you'd like to tell me that could help me defeat him?" Slughorn would say, "Tom Riddle? Whatever happened to -- you don't mean..." Now Dumbledore could ask, "Yes, one and the same. Horace, I've been wondering about Horcruxes. In any of your experience with Tom, do you remember him saying anything about Horcruxes?" "Horcruxes? It was a banned topic at school, but I think he may have asked me -- you don't think..." "I do think -- is there anything you'd like to tell me?" At which point Slughorn would realize that the memory was a discussion of MULTIPLE Horcruxes, he had only tried to speak academically, maybe even talk Tom out of pursuing that information, and he'd think, "Boy did I really screw up..." He'd grudgingly let Dumbledore know he's on the right track while trying to eradicate his own culpability, then go directly into hiding -- from Voldemort and Dumbledore both. Thoughts? hg. From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Sun Aug 21 20:51:49 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:51:49 +0200 Subject: Snape's treatment and pensieve (was: Re: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?)) In-Reply-To: <000e01c5a5fe$2c1f6b60$753a79a5@pensive> References: <000e01c5a5fe$2c1f6b60$753a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: <4308E965.1000608@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138330 Sherry Gomes wrote: >>Um, what would you call his treatment of Neville then, if you think he >wasn't really that bad? He was completely emotionally abusive to that boy! > > > Fabian now: Well ok, he's really mean to Neville, and Harry. What I wanted to say was that he's much more unfair than he's mean. Of course, he is, at least in the first three books, extremely pathetic. The fact that he hasn't been able to put aside the way Harry's father treated him many many years ago is just sad. About "Snape's Worst Memory", to what extent do you think the Pensieve shows what really happened? Does it 'remember' things the way they happened, or the way someone remembers the events? Since Snape removes his 'worst' memory for every Occlumency lesson, it makes me think that the memory is in the way it was in his minds. Which means that any insult he might have made to James/Sirius/Lupin, might have been removed from it. And if it's not, then Harry's father is really not a nice man at all, no better than the grownup Snape I'd say. /Fabian From lealess at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 21:46:17 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:46:17 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138331 Many people have tried to cultivate Harry throughout the books. There have been numerous students, through flattery or love potions. Lockhart is one example of a professor, trying to draw Harry in to share in reflected fame. Scrimgeour is another adult example, trying to draw Harry in to support the Ministry line. Not surprisingly, Slughorn is also interested in Harry, primarily because he is the Chosen One of the moment. Vis-a-vis Harry, these characters and their motivations are all suspect, and Harry knows enough to stay away from them. Slughorn is drawn as a hedonist and cultivator of what he thinks are talented students. He is not only interested in Harry. I suppose his character shows Slytherin scheming for position, as well as Slytherin elitism. But seeing as how this character was no doubt based on a real-life gay man and may actually be a fairly good characterization of that professor, it disturbs me that people jump to the conclusion that he must also be a sinister pedophile. His motivations may be more benign. When Harry pursues Slughorn, the professor backs away. I am not sure a pedophile would have done that. On the other hand, pedophilia is about power as much as anything else, I believe (no expert here). I think lies and coercion can also play a role. So... is Slughorn really seeking power over students to achieve some kind of gratification, or is he seeking influence to help him further down along in life, or is he just content with the knowledge that he helped students by introducing them to other talented people and furthering their ambitions? Why not the latter? One more thing: Slughorn wouldn't even be at Hogwarts if Dumbledore hadn't dangled Harry in front of him, as a tempting addition to his collection of students with potential for big achievement. I will never argue that Dumbledore's choices for professors have been the best. Slughorn didn't seem to be the worst, however. lealess From elanorpam at yahoo.com.br Sun Aug 21 22:32:42 2005 From: elanorpam at yahoo.com.br (Paula "Elanor Pam") Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:32:42 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) References: Message-ID: <005101c5a6a0$40ce3080$0701010a@harrypotter> No: HPFGUIDX 138332 From: "lupinlore" >Sienna makes a marvelous and telling point in her early comments about Voldemort. We have had an emphasis on the importance of choice and JKR's statements about how no one is born evil. But in Voldemort we have a character who seems, from all evidence and appearances, to be genetically evil, a corrupt product of a degenerate and inbred family. Furthermore Dumbledore, the very character who is associated with statements about the power of choice and the importance of trust, seems to relate to him from the very first as a dangerous and deeply flawed child, a child who is in some way corrupt in his very essence. In other words, we have a powerful and glaring contradiction woven into the basic fabric of the narrative, in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main villain is a monster from birth, the son of a poisoned bloodline.< Elanor Pam: Actually, what I see is that Voldemort had problems feeling empathy, probably slightly autistic in nature. But that doesn't mean that, in the right place and with the right guidance, he wouldn't be salvageable. An orphanage is surely swarming with bullies - and his choice was either be the bully or be bullied. Not having had any parents to teach him about treating other people well or turning the other cheek, why would he choose to be stomped on? He would look out for himself, and only himself. I suppose he started to like the feeling of superiority and empowerment that comes from being feared by others, and fed it by lashing out and increasing that fear. That is the main essence of a bully, and that's pretty much what Voldemort is: a childish little bully, only with way too much powers. Now, maybe if he'd been raised in a magical family, a NORMAL magical family, with sane parents, he'd have ended up Minister of Magic. Now that's a scary thought. Elanor Pam _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grtis - Internet rpida e grtis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 23:08:13 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:08:13 -0000 Subject: the DADA jinx In-Reply-To: <006401c5a4d0$7d59b0f0$033b79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138333 Carol's note: This post doesn't link to the original thread, which begins at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137961 Sherry wrote: > I would like to start by complimenting Carol on her excellent post about the possible ways the DADA jinx has affected events. > Was it Valky who suggested the jinx acts on some dark agent in the life of the particular teacher? Well, it is actually both carol and Valky on that I think. However, I am wondering if it actually acts on a character flaw in the teacher, leading that person to unwittingly do Voldemort's will and not do his will. As Valky said, Voldemort is again causing his own downfall by his own jinx. > Carol responds: I agree that the DADA curse works Voldemort's will--ironically, sometimes backfiring on him, as someone (AmiableDorsai?) pointed out with Quirrell--and I think you're right that the character flaw (not necessarily a "Dark side") is more important than what I termed the "agent" in the original post. (That was the wrong word; an agent is presumably human. It should have been "agency" or "instrument.) But I was looking for a term that would tie together the face in the back of Quirrell's head, Ron's broken wand, and the Unbreakable Vow--the manifestation of the jinx or the instrument that will be used to betray the DADA teacher, which appears at the beginning of the term but only comes into play, in most cases, at the end. Sherry wrote: > We are told that Quirrel was smart and curious. Was his curiosity the agent that the jinx used against him? Carol responds: I think he was intrigued by the Dark Arts and too weak to resist them. He was drawn to the vaporized Voldemort, who convinced Quirrell to transport him to Britain (How?) and later was weak enough and terrorized enough to allow Voldemort inside his head (unlike Snape, who would never wear a turban!). On his first term he is seduced by the Dark Arts; on his second, he is used and discarded by Voldemort as he used and discarded the animals he possessed. If it was curiosity that killed the professor, then it was curiosity about Dark beings (vampires, ostensibly) that led him to LV. But he was also weak and foolish, as LV himself says, for all his book learning, and easily manipulated. We don't know whether he was actually a DE, but there was certainly a master/servant relationship similar to that of Voldemort and Wormtail in GoF. I think his weakness was the willingness to seek out and serve evil. At least, that seems to me a more workable flaw for the DADA curse than mere curiosity. And whatever chance for redemption Victim!Quirrell may have had seems to have ended when he drank the unicorn blood, in essence sealing his own doom. Sherry wrote: > Ego! Lockhart's ego, his image was his downfall. Carol responds: Ego and deception, I'd say, taking credit for others' work. He's a sham and, in a sense, a plagiarist. But to revise my thinking a little, what I was calling the "agent" earlier but now prefer to call the "instrument" was not so much Ron's damaged wand as Lockhart's own favorite (okay, only) spell, the memory charm, which backfired with such marvelous poetic justice. Sherry wrote: > Ah, Lupin. I am not convinced that he is ESE, but this thought about the jinx could explain what happened to him. Not the map or the feud, but his weakness of personality. His desire to be liked that kept him from telling Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus. If he had been stronger, and if he had told Dumbledore at the beginning of Sirius' animagus ability, is it possible that Dumbledore could have caught Sirius, heard the whole story of Peter and then captured Peter? There would have been no rushing off of Lupin or Snape to confront anyone in the shack. Peter could have been revealed, sent to Azkaban and therefore be unable to go to Voldemort. But Lupin's weakness, his fear of 'fessing up, led to the events we have in POA. Carol responds: I agree that Lupin's character flaw is (moral) weakness. He knows the right thing to do; he just lacks the courage to do it. We see that even in the Pensieve scene, where he hides behind his book and lets James and Sirius attack Severus without doing his duty as Prefect. It's that same weakness or lack of moral courage that prevents him from turning in the Marauder's Map to Dumbledore. But I still think that the "instrument" was the map. If he'd had the strength of character to turn it in to Dumbledore, he wouldn't have seen Pettigrew on the map and rushed out, forgetting his potion, turning into a werewolf and endangering three children, inadvertently freeing Wormtail and setting in motion all the consequences, unfavorable for himself and favorable to Voldemort, that followed from his inaction. And as you say, Sirius's attacks on Ron and all the rest of the events in PoA might not have occurred at all if Lupin hadn't weakly concealed the truth, including the map itself. Sherry wrote: > And now, Snape. > I think this [the character flaw idea] can work, no matter which side he is on, or even if he's not on any side but his own. Perhaps a desire to prove himself? I think Snape actually has some self-confidence issues; otherwise, he wouldn't feel it necessary to demean his students or even to continue his grudge against James through Harry. He must feel insecure in himself. That kind of insecurity can make people do some truly horrible things. But if his insecurity leads him to Voldemort, it could have been that he thought Voldemort could give him something, power prestige, make him bigger than those old tormenters from school. Carol responds: Well, yes, but to me that sounds more like an explanation of why he originally joined the DEs in his late teens than how the DADA jinx operates on him some twenty years later. Sherry wrote: The unbreakable vow, which I do believe is the way the DADA jinx > seals Snape's doom, could have been a way for him to make himself feel and seem more important than he believes he is. I know Snape may seem to come off as being full of pride and confidence, but I've never seen him as such. Whether he is evil or good or only out for Snape's best interest in true Slytherin style, his insecurity can drive him to do things that will actually work against him. Carol responds: I originally postulated his loyalty to DD (or himself or even LV) as the secret that the DADA curse was exploiting. But if you're right that it's a character flaw rather than a secret that the DADA teacher (Boromir-like) carries with him when he takes the position, I'm back to my original idea that it was pride (not the same thing as self-confidence) that led him to take the UV--the idea that he could work around the provisions of the vow (interpreting "help" differently than Narcissa did, for example). And pride, as we know, goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Sherry wrote: The vow became his downfall. He is not dead, but he is most certainly disgraced. If he was Dumbledore's man all along, he is now in an untenable position, because the good guys will never believe it. If he is evil, he has still perhaps interfered with Voldemort's > plans by saving Draco. He also is no longer in a position to spy on the order. If he's only out for himself, he is now in a terribly dangerous position, because each side could suspect him. But definitely, he is out of Hogwarts in a dramatic and agonizing way. His insecurity led to his downfall. Carol responds; This paragraph I agree with absolutely (may the List Elves forgive me for saying so)! Sherry wrote: > As for how to break the jinx, i like carol's idea that perhaps Snape and Lupin may have to work together to do that in the end. If Snape is good, it would be wonderful poetic justice, if those two old enemies must come together to break the threads that have twisted all their lives. I don't see how that can happen, but Lupin could be the one Snape could go to to plead his case. I doubt Lupin would shoot him on sight. He didn't even do that to peter in the shack. Even if Snape is evil, murdered Dumbledore for his own or Voldemort's reasons, if he is to be redeemed, this could begin with Lupin. Perhaps that will be the key to breaking the jinx once and for all. Carol responds: I'm so happy that you like my proposed alliance between Snape and Lupin, who is the only member of the Order both level-headed and intelligent enough to give Snape a chance to work with him after the events in HBP, and who (whether he understands it or not) has fallen victim to the same curse. (Anyone who's mystified by a proposed Snape/Lupin alliance and wants to read the original suggestion will need to go back to the link provided at the top of this message.) I like the idea or I wouldn't have proposed it, but it may be overly optimistic. Thanks for your thoughtful responses, Sherry! Carol From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 21 23:48:34 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:48:34 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: <005101c5a6a0$40ce3080$0701010a@harrypotter> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paula \"Elanor Pam\"" wrote: > From: "lupinlore" > > >Sienna makes a marvelous and telling point in her > early comments about Voldemort. We have had an emphasis on the > importance of choice and JKR's statements about how no one is born > evil. But in Voldemort we have a character who seems, from all > evidence and appearances, to be genetically evil, a corrupt product > of a degenerate and inbred family. Furthermore Dumbledore, the very > character who is associated with statements about the power of choice > and the importance of trust, seems to relate to him from the very > first as a dangerous and deeply flawed child, a child who is in some > way corrupt in his very essence. In other words, we have a powerful > and glaring contradiction woven into the basic fabric of the > narrative, in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main > villain is a monster from birth, the son of a poisoned bloodline.< > Auria writes: I don't see it as a contradiction at all. It reflects real life. For instance, of children raised in dysfunctional / abusive households some go on to perpetuate the abuse to their own children, while others learn to heal and accept their abusive past and go on to become wonderful parents. This to me is what Dumbledore is getting at with his 'its our choices' comment. Yes some children are born with certain negative characteristics or traits but it is their choice whether to act on them or acknowledge and turn them into something more positive. Auria From zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 23:35:05 2005 From: zeldaricdeau at yahoo.com (zeldaricdeau) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:35:05 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and nurturing (was: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing) In-Reply-To: <005101c5a6a0$40ce3080$0701010a@harrypotter> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138335 > From: "lupinlore" > > In other words, we have a powerful and glaring contradiction woven > into the basic fabric of the narrative, in which choice and trust > is emphasized but the main villain is a monster from birth, the > son of a poisoned bloodline. > > > Elanor Pam: > > Not having had any parents to teach him about treating other people > well or turning the other cheek, why would he choose to be stomped > on? He would look out for himself, and only himself. zeldaricdeau: I've wondered about this apparent contradiction myself. In Voldemort we have a child who was raised from the moment of birth (excluding the hour or so before Merope died) seemingly without love or nurturing of any kind. I get the impression that the orphanage was the kind of place that cared for physical needs but was none too interested in (or, perhaps, able to) care for emotional ones. I've often read that the first year of a child's life is believed to be the most important in terms of emotional and psychological development (though, I am not a psychologist so please feel free to shoot this down in flames). I have also read that it is during this time that bonding with the parents (especially the mother) takes place and trust is learned. Harry grew up from age 1-11 in a situation that, I would say, was worse than Voldemort's in that he experienced outright abuse as opposed to just neglect (not that just neglect isn't horrible enough!). However, for that first year, it appears that he experienced a highly loving and nurturing family, unlike Voldemort, giving him the ability to empathize and trust in a way that Voldemort never could. So where does choice come in? I think that in order to even have the capacity to chose what is right over what is easy for you, you have to be able to empathize (I know in this I am repeating some of what others on this list have said); otherwise choosing something that benefits someone other than yourself is nonsensical. Harry clearly has the capacity to empathize. He clearly isn't perfect, but considering his situation with the Dursley's he has turned out quite well. But what would have happened if he hadn't been given that one year with Lily and James? Would he be just like Voldemort? Maybe the question is, can a child raised without love or nurturing empathize and thus be free to make a choice between what is right and what is easy? Meaning, is Harry just as much a contradiction to one of the major themes of the series as Voldemort is? -ZR From ellcam at cox.net Sun Aug 21 23:30:53 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:30:53 -0400 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) References: <005101c5a6a0$40ce3080$0701010a@harrypotter> Message-ID: <004701c5a6a8$8f4f42a0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138336 Elanor Pam said: Actually, what I see is that Voldemort had problems feeling empathy, probably slightly autistic in nature. Lupinlore said: We have had an emphasis on the importance of choice and JKR's statements about how no one is born evil. I actually think that JKR has provided us with the story of 2 children brought up in unloving environments, both orphans, and the divergent character development that insues. This to me is a contradiction in the choice matter as they have similar beginnings and extreme differences in character. Harry, unloved and mistreated for the first 11 years of his life, is a good person with a strong understanding of right and wrong. He values friendships, relationships, and has empathy for others. For those 11 years, he has no idea what his parents were like or how much they have sacrificed because they love him. On the other side, we have Tom Riddle, brought up in an orphanage. Even as a student, Riddle is already trying to manipulate others to amass power for himself. He is a loner with no friends and enjoys frightening other children. He shows at Hogwarts that he is not above blaming innocent people for things to go his way. One has to wonder why Harry turned out to be such a decent person, while Tom turned out to be truly evil, if their personalities are not grounded in nature. LV also seems to me, so far, to be a shallow fairly uncomplicated character, whereas Harry has some depth to his character and struggles with his emotions. Rachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anezat at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 23:46:25 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:46:25 -0000 Subject: A possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138337 Kris: > I've thought about this award as a possibilty as well. Right - I came upon it in the conversation LV had with Harry in the Chamber. But I wasn't sure of his attitude toward it. It was mentioned several times in the book however, and sometimes that's a clue JKR gives us. - Angela From weaslediva at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 23:16:43 2005 From: weaslediva at yahoo.com (Deborah Hunt) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050821231643.17759.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138338 I agree. The award for special services is a very likely horcrux item. 1. It is enshrined at Hogwarts, possibly the first trophy Voldy every received. 2. It is well cared for, shined and kept pretty at Hogwarts, the safest place next to Gringotts. 3. Hogwarts is the place that Vold is fondest of (If he can be fond of anything) 4. Ron vomited slugs all over it. It made him sick. (Note also that Ron was very apprehensive about the diary as well, and the comment that the trophy was given for killing Moaning Myrtle.) This can be read that the Myrtle death fueled the Horcrux in the trophy. Also, Slugs - Slughorn. Weaslediva. From lynnheath at rogers.com Sun Aug 21 21:36:56 2005 From: lynnheath at rogers.com (heathrawlings) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:36:56 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138339 Del: >2) I did say that Slughorn is not a pedophile. I said that JKR wrote >him AS a possible pedophile, to raise suspicion IMO. I think she's >trying to say: "Caution! Slughorn's liking of some students is not as >innocent as it looks, it's hiding something darker, some kind of Dark >Magic or something." Now Heathrawlings: Okay - so what if he's got some dark magic going that somehow, through his contact and affection with these students, he saps a little bit of their powers to keep his powers strong. Kinda fits with how he's fat and lazy but still able to whip out some solid tricks for DD and Harry and it would also explain why he agrees to go back to Hogwarts and his very healthy interest in Harry (the more powerful the kid, the better the boost to his own magic). Besides, doesn't he say repeatedly in the first encounter that he's "getting old" and "feeling tired" - maybe he needs the boost that young students energy provides.... All wild speculation, but then, in terms of canon, so is likening Horace to a pedo... HR From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 22:16:33 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:16:33 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138340 Lupinlore wrote: "Where you stand on the question of Snape seems to relate very strongly to where you stand on two other questions: 1)On how many levels do you believe JKR is intentionally writing, and 2)Your tolerance for contradictions in the plot and themes of the HP saga." (snip) "Personally, I am somewhat at sea on this question. I think Sienna is right that the outcome of many subplots, particularly those involving shipping, support the idea that JKR is writing a more straightforward and "obvious" story than many fans have expected or believed. This is further supported by many of her interview statements, particularly her most recent comments where she says (and this is an extreme paraphrase): "It's a childrens' book and people need to just get over it." On the other hand, the outcome of one kind of plot doesn't necessarily herald the outcome of another, and the ultimate proof will be in the seventh book. I confess I am among those who is hoping that things are somewhat more multi-leveled than they appear, but I may well be one of those to whom she is talking when she says it's just a childrens' book and I need to accept that and go on." Del replies: Personally, I put the blame squarely on JKR's shoulders :-) She's the one who got us used to intricate subplots and marvelous twists. So she can't really expect us now to take things at face value, can she ;-) ? However, I think your distinction between romantic subplots and other kinds of subplots is very important. The romantic subplots have all been pretty straightforward, throughout the series. Sure we got a few surprises, like Krum/Hermione, or the discovery that Lily didn't always like James. But those are all minor. So it is possible that JKR was genuinely surprised that so many readers would look for deeper levels, because she never wrote any deeper levels *on that matter*. However, things are much more complicated where the other types of plot are concerned, IMO. JKR can't deny that all her books have had a very strong "detective book" side. Deeper levels and misleading clues are the rule in that kind of book, and she's played the game wonderfully so far, hitting us on the head in every book. So there's no way she can expect us *not* to look deeper, not to theorise, about the non-romantic subplots. And the Snape subplot, by JKR's own admission ("Who would want Snape to love them?", paraphrase) is a definitely non-romantic subplot. So IMO it's totally fair game for the readers to apply the detective magnifying glass to his case. *Especially* since JKR told us that HBP and Book 7 are like two parts of the same book! What did she expect us to think, when she said that :-) ? Don't we *know* that in every single other book, the detective subplot was utterly misleading by the time we got to the middle of the book? In every single other book, by the middle of the book, we were all completely wrong about the identity of the villain, we had a completely wrong understanding of the situation, and so did Harry. So it is completely logical IMO that so many readers should not take the end of HBP at face value: that's how we've been trained to think, by JKR Herself :-) Lupinlore wrote: "You can either try to solve these holes and contradictions in a way that supports your position or you can simply take the position that the saga will have numerous holes and contradictions regardless of how it comes out. Personally I have a tendency to try and "correct" plot holes and thematic inconsistency, or at least criticize them. I am beginning to believe, however, that the second position is the one that will be proven correct." Del replies: I agree with you. However, I do not think that this should stop anyone from speculating and trying to solve the plot holes. We are living something that has never happened on such a scale before. We have read 6 books in a series of 7. The last book won't be out for at least 2 years. And we have this wonderful tool, the Net, that allows us to discuss ideas and possibilities with thousands of other fans, almost live. I think it would be horrible to let a belief, no matter how justified, that we are theorising in empty space and that things will be much more straightforward in the end, prevent us from using those 2 years to the fullest. Once Book 7 is out, much of the speculation will be over. It will be too late then to stretch our minds, to boost our imagination, to craft those wonderfully intrincate theories, the way we can now. So personally I say "let's have a blast!", even if I believe that things will probably be much simpler than I hope them to be, in the end. Lupinlore wrote: "Sienna makes a marvelous and telling point in her early comments about Voldemort. We have had an emphasis on the importance of choice and JKR's statements about how no one is born evil. But in Voldemort we have a character who seems, from all evidence and appearances, to be genetically evil, a corrupt product of a degenerate and inbred family. Furthermore Dumbledore, the very character who is associated with statements about the power of choice and the importance of trust, seems to relate to him from the very first as a dangerous and deeply flawed child, a child who is in some way corrupt in his very essence. In other words, we have a powerful and glaring contradiction woven into the basic fabric of the narrative, in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main villain is a monster from birth, the son of a poisoned bloodline." Del replies: One possibility I see is that JKR meant that, if Tom had been raised in better conditions, he might not have turned evil. It's something I've read several times about psychopaths: they are a deadly combination of an inborn screwed-up nature, a horrific nurture, and the wrong opportunity. So maybe JKR meant that, as far as his nature only was concerned, Tom wasn't evil, and that it's the additional factors of his being raised in a Muggle orphanage (where his powers were unchecked by other wizards and where he had access to many kids to terrorise), and his being taught additional magic at Hogwarts (with all the opportunities it gave him to access the wrong kind of knowledge and power), that combined with his nature to create the truly evil LV. But it's also true that I don't see Tom as having ever had a real choice between Good and Evil, mainly because I don't think he ever *truly* understood those concepts, in his heart. So where he is concerned, the almighty concept of choice does seem to become quite irrelevant. However, I don't think this is really a problem in the Potterverse, because the way I see it, LV was never a true person. He was always a plot device. He was never really human, since he never loved, so he's not really *someone*, he's more someTHING: the embodiment of Evil. So, well, he simply doesn't matter. JKR has shown that she is ruthless: she killed Cedric just to show that LV doesn't care about human life. She killed Sirius because it was necessary for Harry's growing-up, or something. I think that she similarly "sacrificed" Tom Riddle. In the end, he's just a plot device, just like Cedric and Sirius were. A plot device in the grand scheme of things, which is The Life of Harry Potter. And seen in that light, then Snape killing DD at the end of HBP makes total sense: both were plot devices, and she had to deal with them in a way that furthered Harry's quest. So exit the Wise Mentor, right after he's told Harry just enough to give him an idea of what to do next, but before he does too much of Harry's heroic job. And Snape can finally be revealed for the nasty traitor that he always was, now that his usefulness as Harry's tormentor at Hogwarts is over, and that DD is dead. I know it sounds quite cynical, but it does make sense if you consider that every character in HP (except Harry) is to some degree a plot device. Some are more than others (like poor Cedric), but all of them matter mostly inasmuch as they relate to Harry. Sirius existed and was killed "because" of Harry, DD was killed "because" of Harry, Snape is evil "because" of Harry, and LV is the necessary archnemesis to Harry (see footnote). That's also why, I think, secondary characters that we have come to care about, like Neville, get dropped as soon as they are not useful anymore as plot devices. We might care about them, but if they are not useful as plot devices, then they don't get any screentime. It's not DD who is Puppetmaster, it's JKR. Del Note: when I say "because of Harry", I don't mean that Harry killed them or made them be evil, nothing like that. I just mean that they had to exist and be that way so that Harry's story could unfold. For example, Snape became a DE because he chose to. But Snape's character exists in the first place only because he is necessary for Harry's story. From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Sun Aug 21 21:23:39 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:23:39 +0200 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4308F0DB.80305@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138341 >Valky: > >During the Occlumency lessons Snape makes his long discourse about >weakness and easy prey for the Dark Lord. Then he says Harry's is not >important enough anyway, so he ought to get over himself, *then* he >calls Harry sloppy and lazy, *and* I noted before, he gets even more >angry at Harry for not repeating his Occlumency defense (which >coincided with his memory of defending Sirius) and finally in HBP >Snape is still making noises about Harry's incompetence and his [Ha!] >intention to become an Auror, all while secretly (and obviously to >me), *studying him* internally defending Sirius' memory, *then* Snapes >final words to Harry as he runs out of the castle wind back to the >same old ground, You can't beat me without stealth, No Unforgivables >for you.. > > I've started to think of Snape using the same kind of pedagogical skills as drill sergeants do in american war movies. Honestly, if Harry is going to have any use of his Occlumency, does he have to do it when someone provoces him and insults him or when someone is nice to him and encourages him? I'm not saying I think it's the best way of teaching it, but I would imagine that could be a reason. I totally agree with the studying of HP part, I think the occlumency lessons are important both to protect Harry but also to let Snape know how easy it is to get into his head and if there are more visions the order doesn't know of. BTW, am I the only one who sees Gargamel (from the Smurfs) when I read about Snape? /Fabian From anezat at yahoo.com Sun Aug 21 23:41:58 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:41:58 -0000 Subject: Snape's treatment and pensieve (was: Re: YES ( was: Did Snape "murder" Dumbledore?)) In-Reply-To: <4308E965.1000608@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138342 > > Fabian now: >> About "Snape's Worst Memory", to what extent do you think the Pensieve > shows what really happened? I think I read somewhere that JKR said that the memories in the pensieve are a straightforward account of what happened, not biased by the person who has the memory. She said something to the effect of what good would the pensieve be if it weren't objective. Angela From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 00:40:14 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:40:14 -0000 Subject: Snape's treatment and pensieve In-Reply-To: <4308E965.1000608@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fabian Peng K?rrholm (Message 138330) >About "Snape's Worst Memory", to what extent do you think the >Pensieve shows what really happened? Does it 'remember' things the >way they happened, or the way someone remembers the events? Since >Snape removes his 'worst' memory for every Occlumency lesson, it >makes me think that the memory is in the way it was in his minds. >Which means that any insult he might have made to >James/Sirius/Lupin, might have been removed from it. "K": Concerning the Pensieve: The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005 EDINBURGH, SCOTLAND MA: One of our Leaky "Ask Jo" poll winners is theotherhermit, she's 50 and lives in a small town in the eastern US. I think this was addressed in the sixth book, but, "Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?" JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. ES: I was dead wrong about that. JKR: Really? ES: I thought for sure that it was your interpretation of it. It didn't make sense to me to be able to examine your own thoughts from a third-person perspective. It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be able to look at things from someone else's point of view. MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself? JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive. ES: I want one of those! JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time. It's somewhere in yourhead, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet- anelli-3.htm From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 00:49:17 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:49:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's treatment and pensieve /James v Snape In-Reply-To: <4308E965.1000608@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138344 > > Fabian now: > About "Snape's Worst Memory", to what extent do you think the Pensieve > shows what really happened? Does it 'remember' things the way they > happened, or the way someone remembers the events? Since Snape removes > his 'worst' memory for every Occlumency lesson, it makes me think that > the memory is in the way it was in his minds. Which means that any > insult he might have made to James/Sirius/Lupin, might have been removed > from it. And if it's not, then Harry's father is really not a nice man > at all, no better than the grownup Snape I'd say. Alla: Well, even though JKR indeed said that Pensieve is objective, I do think that Snape MAY have been played with the memory itself before he put it into pensieve( just as Slughorn did with his) And I think he indeed downplayed at least his responces. Just speculation of course. I don't really want to get into debate about Pensieve scene again( I believe that there is a backstory there we are not privy to yet), but I disagree that James was no better than adult Snape in any event. To me adult James was a hero, who defied Voldemort and who died trying to save his wife and son. Adult Snape on the other hand, hmmm... many question marks here of course, but the fact that he participated in terroristic organization makes ( to me only of course) his behaviour to be so much worse than any thing that obnoxious schoolboys could come up with. Just my opinion of course, Alla From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 00:52:41 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:52:41 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138345 lealess (snip): > Slughorn is drawn as a hedonist and cultivator of what he thinks are > talented students. He is not only interested in Harry. I suppose his character shows Slytherin scheming for position, as well as Slytherin elitism. But seeing as how this character was no doubt based on a > real-life gay man and may actually be a fairly good characterization > of that professor, it disturbs me that people jump to the conclusion > that he must also be a sinister pedophile. His motivations may be > more benign. ...Slughorn wouldn't even be at Hogwarts if Dumbledore > hadn't dangled Harry in front of him, as a tempting addition to his > collection of students with potential for big achievement. I will > never argue that Dumbledore's choices for professors have been the > best. Slughorn didn't seem to be the worst, however. hg: Here's the link lealess refers to (mentioned previously in this thread); http://www.livejournal.com/users/threeoranges/142574.html To quote a bit from the site: "The very best circle in which a student could be was that organized by Francis Fortescue "Sligger" Urquhart, a don at Balliol College. Sligger himself was more a dilettante than a serious academic, and his serious energies were dedicated to the cultivation of his own special circle of young undergraduates, particularly those marked for future greatness. As Carpenter puts it, "he was attracted by good looks and titles"; if you had either of those, or some extraordinary talent, Sligger was bound to take an interest in you... Every available inch of mantlepiece and wall [where he lived] was covered with photographs of previous generations of undergraduates. Here he held 'open house' late each evening." It's awfully hard to refute that. HOWEVER. Several weeks ago I did some research of my own and came up with another compelling character upon whom Slughorn could be based. A bit less sinister a comparison, perhaps? http://sky.prohosting.com/fizbin/athenaeum/magos/archives/oldwiz/goldin. html Horace Goldin: "His real name was Hyman Elias Goldstein and he was born in Vilna, Poland on December 17, 1873 or 74. He emigrated to the United States in his teens and began learning magic from an amateur magician and later from the famous Albini (inventor of the modern Egg Bag Trick). Goldin was very influential in magic having developed a fast and effective mode of presentation with which he caused a sensation and which made him a headliner. This style was followed by many magicians of the time. >From 1901 Goldin toured the world and in 1921 he developed (with other magicians) his own version of Sawing a Woman in Half, inspired by reports of the Selbit version of this same illusion. His presentation and talents for exploitation and publicity made this illusion a sensation. Later (1931) he invented the Buzz Saw Illusion and boasted that he had finally eliminated all "magic boxes" from his show. Horace Goldin died on August 22, 1939." Goldin was short, fat, pompous and hedonistic. He was famous in London. One act he toured was "The Tiger God" which was an elaborate show involving a tiger named Lily. The silent, rapid-fire presentation referred to above arose from the slight handicap of his accent; as I understand it, he wasn't doing the tricks themselves so fast, but eliminating the patter brought a seeming torrent of magic. I wasn't able to find too much on him on the internet, save for his autobiography, which is a hoot (I have found several books that discuss him in context of professional magic at the turn of the century, which round out my speculation that Slughorn is based on him, at least in part) -- but I think it's an important connection considering how JK has introduced us to muggle magic in this book, and, with the attention paid to Slughorn's hands in the text, quite apt. By the way, Selbit mentioned above was named Tibbles. He reversed his name and dropped a 'b' to sound more magical. Anyone recall Mr. Tibbles? hg. From anezat at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 00:52:58 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:52:58 -0000 Subject: A possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: <20050821231643.17759.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138346 Weaslediva: > 4. Ron vomited slugs all over it. It made him sick. (Note also that Ron was very apprehensive about the diary as well, and the comment that the trophy was given for killing Moaning Myrtle.) This can be read that the Myrtle death fueled the Horcrux in the trophy. Also, Slugs - Slughorn. > Yes - those were my reasons for suggesting the award. I'm not sure that the murder of Myrtle allowed this object to become a Horcrux; I guess I assumed that her murder allowed the diary to become a Horcrux. I never made the association with the slugs and Slughorn. That's clever, whether or not it's itentional. Didn't I read somewhere that JKR said that all the horcruxes have been mentioned in the previous books. Or am I making this up? I know that DD says in COS that the sword (and I guess Sorting Hat) was the only remaining relic of Gryffindor. I can't think of any mention of anything from Rowena Ravenclaw. -Angela From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 01:40:12 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy L) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:40:12 -0000 Subject: A Snape in The Grass Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138347 This is my theory why Snape is on Voldemort's side. First of all, Dumbledore has shown that he is too trusting, and does make mistakes. His mistakes tend to be greater than others, as he says in HBP. Secondly, I believe Harry is right. Snape has shown he has hated Harry since the first book, and there is simply no redeeming situation where Snape didn't "help" Harry unless it was to serve some purpose for Snape (that I can find anyway). I began to think of an old fable with which I am sure everyone is familiar. I changed names to make a point: A wise man named Dumbledore was walking down a path and he came across a rattleSnape. The rattleSnape was getting old. He asked, "Please Dumbledore, can you take me to the top of the mountain? I hope to see the sunset one last time before I die." Dumbledore answered "No Mr. RattleSnape. If I pick you up, you'll bite me and I'll die." The rattleSnape said, "No, I promise. I won't bite you. Just please take me up to the mountain." Dumbledore thought about it and finally picked up that rattleSnape and took it close to his chest and carried it up to the top of the mountain. They sat there and watched the sunset together. It was so beautiful. Then after sunset the rattleSnape turned to Dumbledore and asked, "Can I go home now? I am tired, and I am old." Dumbledore picked up the rattleSnape and again took it to his chest and held it tightly and safely. He came all the way down the mountain holding the Snape carefully and took it to his home to give him some food and a place to sleep. The next day the rattleSnape turned to Dumbledore and asked, "Please Dumbledore, will you take me back to my home now? It is time for me to leave this world, and I would like to be at my home now." Dumbledore felt he had been safe all this time and the Snape had kept his word, so he would take it home as asked. He carefully picked up the Snape, took it close to his chest, and carried him back to the woods, to his home to die. Just before he laid the rattleSnape down, the rattleSnape turned and bit him in the chest. Dumbledore cried out and threw the Snape upon the ground. "Mr. Snape, why did you do that? Now I will surely die!" The rattleSnape looked up at him and grinned, "You knew what I was when you picked me up." Cindy L. (aoibhneach) From kjones at telus.net Mon Aug 22 02:13:43 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:13:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430934D7.9010008@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138348 > Larry now: > Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a life > unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging or > destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I cannot > understand how we can have gotten to know Dumbledore > as we have and believe for a second that he would > sacrifice a human soul for any reason. Let alone for > so craven a thing as the placement of a spy. Larry Kathy writes: I believe that it is more to him than just placing a spy. I think it is his last gamble to set things up for the final conflict. Dumbledore's only goal is finishing Voldemort. For that, he is willing to risk everything. KJ > Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no one, > there is no inner circle. Voldemort is the only chess > master here, it is his utterly ruthless willingness to > sacrifice any one or anything to get what he wants > that marks him as the Dark Lord. For Dumbledore to > sacrifice a soul, any soul, would be to have him use > the means of the enemy, putting him on the road to > becoming the enemy. Larry Kathy writes: While you are probably correct in your estimation, there are a few items I would like to discuss. Do we really "know" Dumbledore? Dumbledore speaks of a plan involving Harry and feels intense sorrow about risking Harry's life and alternatively risking the lives of hundreds or thousands of others.He has forced himself to stop protecting Harry from his "destiny", and is pushing the master plan forward. Dumbledore has sent Lupin, who is not a strong person psychologically or apparently physically, from the description of him, to live with a pack of werewolves, where he must change along with them, without benefit of the Wolfsbane, possibly risking the lives of innocent people. Dumbledore sent Snape back to Voldemort, expecting that he might have a hard time convincing Voldemort that he had been loyal all those years. Dumbledore, at least, had the decency to look worried when he did it. Dumbledore had no problem in allowing Hagrid to be sent to Azkaban for a short sabbatical. Dumbledore is 150 years old. He has been looking at the long-term picture for a third of his life. He has already made great changes to his own life in his fight against Voldemort. He has already sacrificed much. I believe that Dumbledore *would* ask Snape to make the sacrifice of risking his soul, although I believe that JKR described a cold-blooded, deliberate killing was necessary to damage the soul. Obviously the risk has been minimized. Dumbledore would also be willing to ask the supreme sacrifice of both Snape and Harry. He has simply avoided the guilt by making his sacrifice to the cause first. Wily old bird! Dumbledore doesn't trust anyone either. He was always the only one holding all the cards. He only shows the ones he wants the others to see. I see this as his biggest mistake. From OotP on Dumbledore has been changing from "peacetime" Dumbledore to "at war" Dumbledore and I find him not so nice and kind as before. KJ From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 22 02:31:46 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:31:46 -0000 Subject: Pensieve ? (was Snape's treatment and pensieve /James v Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > Fabian now: > > About "Snape's Worst Memory", to what extent do you think the > Pensieve > > shows what really happened? Does it 'remember' things the way they > > happened, or the way someone remembers the events? Since Snape > removes > > his 'worst' memory for every Occlumency lesson, it makes me think > that > > the memory is in the way it was in his minds. Which means that any > > insult he might have made to James/Sirius/Lupin, might have been > removed > > from it. And if it's not, then Harry's father is really not a nice > man > > at all, no better than the grownup Snape I'd say. > > > > Alla: > > Well, even though JKR indeed said that Pensieve is objective, I do > think that Snape MAY have been played with the memory itself before > he put it into pensieve( just as Slughorn did with his) And I think > he indeed downplayed at least his responces. Just speculation of > course. Marianne: Okay, so this Pensieve thing still makes my head hurt. We have Slughorn's modified horcrux memory that DD has in one of his nifty, little memory bottles. DD then tells Harry to get the real, unadulterated memory from Slughorn. What does this mean? Slughorn's purported memory is captured in in a bottle. We are told that this is a modified memory. Yet, he still apparently has the real memory in his brain, because DD gives Harry the task of retrieving it. Does this mean that the memory that one can capture and put in a bottle for further examination sometime in the future is a copy of the memory that is in one's head? So, do wizards have a choice of what to do with memories? Can they remove a copy, modified or completely true, of what is in their brain and put it in another container (bottle, Pensieve, whatever) while still maintaining the original, correct memory in their heads? I'd say the answer to that is "Yes", since that's apparently what Slughorn did. Are Pensieve memories really only copies? Or are only the "bottled" memories copies, modified or true, of what's in one's mind? Marianne, who had a really bad night's sleep and is probably rambling... From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Mon Aug 22 02:35:17 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:35:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] About the books - I need help here please!!!! Message-ID: <1ea.4353f109.303a93e5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138350 I thought it was really good. The story line goes very fast too. It's a nice pace after the slowness of Oopt. Some of it was predictable, but others weren't. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prep0strus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 02:39:48 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:39:48 -0000 Subject: About the books - I need help here please!!!! In-Reply-To: <1ea.4353f109.303a93e5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138351 Yeah - I enjoyed it more than I did 5, I think. It's a good deal shorter, if that helps... I personally found a lot of the first half of the book, which included a lot of relationship stuff, to be a little slow, but I felt the first 3 chapters of the book, as well as the Christmas chapter, to be absolutely brilliant. And the entire 2nd half of the book picks up, and is quite engaging to the end. There's a lot of background, a good amount of humor, but really... can you have read and enjoyed the first 4 books without absolutely having to know what happens in the rest of it? We may all be disappointed in Book 7, but even if it's wretched halfway through I doubt most of us will stop reading. It's an investment we put into the characters. I think that if you enjoyed the first few books, you may as well stick it out to the end and see if the end makes it all worth it. If you wind up not liking the end of what is essentially one giant book... I don't think you've lost too much by reading it. ~Prep0strus From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 22 02:42:40 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:42:40 -0000 Subject: DD's definitely dead (Snape)? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138352 Luckdragon said (with much snipping): If anyone could prevent [DD's] death from the potion it was Snape, who if I recall correctly told his first year potion students that "he could teach them to put a Stopper on death". I know this has been discussed before, and the actual quote is still open to interpretation, but Snape actually said "a stopper IN death". This makes a huge difference, because it means Snape's talking about bottling poison, not an antidote. "Stopper" means cork or lid, meaning he could teach anyone with enough competence to make and cork death in a bottle. (I'm not arguing that Snape isn't up to making antidotes, I agree that if anyone could do it, it would be him, but this might provide some insight into his motives and priorities...he chooses to mention his skills with poisons rather than how to counteract them-a clue perhaps? Who filled that basin anyway?) From anezat at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 01:04:29 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:04:29 -0000 Subject: Snape's treatment and pensieve /James v Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138353 Alla said: "Well, even though JKR indeed said that Pensieve is objective, I do think that Snape MAY have been played with the memory itself before he put it into pensieve( just as Slughorn did with his) And I think he indeed downplayed at least his responces." Angela replies: I dont think that Snape did play with this memory because he probably never believed that Harry would have the strength of mind to break into Snape's thoughts and memories. Snape was really surprised by this intrusion. Alla said : "To me adult James was a hero, who defied Voldemort and who died trying to save his wife and son." Angela replies: I agree that the adult James became was good, maybe he was uncaring as a teenager. I think this is one of those life lessons Harry gets (particularly in OOTP) that the world is not just black and white. - Angela From deborama59 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 02:25:22 2005 From: deborama59 at yahoo.com (deborama59) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:25:22 -0000 Subject: Who is R.A.B., really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138354 Nuadan4me wrote: > Like just about everyone else, when I came across the message > contained in the locket that was meant for Voldemort to read, I > wracked the HP part of my brain, and came up with Regulus Black. snip > However, it just seemed too easy, too much (if you'll pardon me) of a > no-brainer. We all know how JKR loves riddles, hidden clues and the > like; so I figured that maybe there was more to this "R.A.B."> Deb: In message #134899 Jen Reese made an interesting case for little Amy Benson being R.A.B. That was an idea I was nursing also mainly because of how difficult it would be to find the cave unless you knew where to look or had been there before. As Jen postulated, perhaps Tom Riddle scared some magic out of Amy in the cave. I believe Tom would have been 4 or 5 years older than little Amy and that as arrogant and taken with his own *specialness* as he was, would not even have noticed her later at Hogwarts. It is possible that she was adopted and had changed her name but not necessary to stay below the radar of our budding sociopath Tom. One drawback of course-the locket at 12GP. Well, here goes... LV becomes aware of Amy at last and sends Reg to dispatch her. When Reg finds her she is aready dying after drinking the potion to get to the locket. She tells him what it is and begs him to help her destroy it. He takes it but does not destroy it and leaves her to die. He takes it to his parents' home and begins to have second thoughts about being a DE and is killed before he tells anyone about the locket. But who helped Amy drink the potion? Perhaps her Muggle husband, Dennis? Or her Squib daughter... her namesake...Rosmerta Amy Bishop? More on that later. Deb Who will have plenty of time soon to keep up with all the posts while recuperating from surgery! From barbris210 at aol.com Mon Aug 22 02:54:39 2005 From: barbris210 at aol.com (Barbra Resnick) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:54:39 -0000 Subject: Fortescue Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138355 Ok guys, my first time posting, so be kind... There has been some speculation about the disappearance of Florean Fortescue, of the ice cream shop. In OOTP, Dumbledore refers to the corpulent former headmaster in the portrait on the wall as "Fortescue" (US, pg 614). Any connection? Barbra. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 22 03:01:15 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:01:15 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Sienna brings up an excellent point, and one that I think gets to the > heart of the Snape debate. Where you stand on the question of Snape > seems to relate very strongly to where you stand on two other > questions: 1)On how many levels do you believe JKR is intentionally > writing, and 2)Your tolerance for contradictions in the plot and > themes of the HP saga. > > I'm not going to argue for one interpretation or the other -- at > least not much. I just want to lay out the issue for discussion. It > seems to me that for Good!Snape to be the case one must postulate > that JKR is writing consciously on multiple levels. In order to > argue for Evil!Snape you don't have to necessarily DENY that JKR is > operating on multiple levels, but as Sienna points out, Evil!Snape > does fit with a straightforward narrative whereas Good!Snape does not. Marianne: And OFH!Snape does, too, I'm happy to think. > Personally, I am somewhat at sea on this question. I think Sienna is > right that the outcome of many subplots, particularly those involving > shipping, support the idea that JKR is writing a more straightforward > and "obvious" story than many fans have expected or believed. Marianne: As does JKR's recent mention of "anvil" types of hints for the shipping that we saw in HBP. I have no particular interest in the pairing off of the kids, but I always felt that Ron/Hermione was a done deal, ever since Ron got so bent out of shape about Hermione and Krum Which meant that, by default, Harry would end up with Ginny. So, the revelations of HBP did not shock me at all, and I really don't get the angst of people who think that either pairing is wrong. However, since I have no real interest and have not spent a lot of time analyzing either pairing, it's easy for me. What we really need, with regards to Snape, is for people who don't give a damn about him one way or the other (are there any such people on the planet???) to give us their views of the character. They'll probably be spot on. Lupionlore: But in Voldemort we have a character who seems, from all > evidence and appearances, to be genetically evil, a corrupt product > of a degenerate and inbred family. Furthermore Dumbledore, the very > character who is associated with statements about the power of choice > and the importance of trust, seems to relate to him from the very > first as a dangerous and deeply flawed child, a child who is in some > way corrupt in his very essence. In other words, we have a powerful > and glaring contradiction woven into the basic fabric of the > narrative, in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main > villain is a monster from birth, the son of a poisoned bloodline. Marianne: I think you're right with this. I originally was going to argue this point, but the more I tried, the more I felt I would be undercutting myself. And that's because of the comparisons we have to draw between Tom Riddle and Harry. Tom's bloodline was horrible, but had he been adopted by a loving family, perhaps he wouldn't have turned out as the embodiment of evil. Yet, Harry also grew up unloved and resented, but managed to retain an innate decency that is totally foreign to Tom. What's the difference between the two boys? Genetics? Bloodlines? Plot device? From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 03:08:40 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:08:40 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138357 vmonte: HBP P510-511 "It is Voldemort's fault that you were able to see into his thoughts, his ambitions, that you even understand the snakelike language in which he gives orders, and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world (which, incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to have), you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts..." Snape wants the "gift" that Harry has inside of him. Riddle liked to collect items from his victims. Snape collects knowledge. He uses people until they have nothing more to give. He sucks people dry, and then moves on. I believe that Snape did this with Voldemort and Dumbledore, and now he wants the power that is locked up in Harry's scar. HBP P506 "The Snake?" said Harry, startled. "You can use animals as Horcruxes?" "well, it is inadvisable to do so," said Dumbledore, "because to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business." HBP p511 "You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!" said Dumbledore loudly. "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror? Voldemort should have known then what he was dealing with, but he did not!" So, it seems that Harry's will is stronger than Voldemort's. Harry is also pure of heart and this is what will conquer evil. I'm wondering if Harry has somehow transformed the horcrux that is inside of him? This next section is a repost. P220, SS "The ancient study of alchemy is concerned with making the Sorcerer's Stone, a legendary substance with astonishing powers. The stone will transform any metal into pure gold. It also produces the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal." Isn't Harry kind of like the metal that was transformed into gold due to what happened at Godrics hollow? If Harry was accidently turned into a horcrux you could also say that Harry represents the Elixir of Life to Voldemort. Horcrux!Harry makes Voldemort immortal. Another thought comes to mind. Could Snape be interested in acquiring the powers that Harry received from Voldemort? Just a thought. Maybe Snape is the "Golden Snitch." Does Snape want to be turned into gold? Reasons why Snape may have been at GH and/or suspected that Harry may be a Horcrux: P126, SS "It happened very suddenly. The hooked-nosed teacher looked past Quirell's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead." I wonder what Snape thinks about this scar? Doesn't he know a lot of dark magic? If he was at GH he would have first hand knowledge of what happened to Harry. P193-194, The Dueling Club, CoS "Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down, and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked too...Malfoy raised his wand quickly and bellowed, "Serpensortia! ...Snape too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it." Did Snape just test his pet Horcrux!Harry theory on Harry? If Snape believed that Harry might have some of Voldemort's powers what better way to test him? P333, CoS "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunder struck. "It certainly seems so." Vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 03:11:23 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:11:23 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror In-Reply-To: <4308F0DB.80305@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138358 Valky said: Snape does not *know* Harry is *the* "One" full stop. He only knows "Harry is the one with the power" because he has only heard half the prophecy. He could still conclude that the power is the answer, and not the boy. Snape is into "power" like that, being a Slytherin and all. Rachel: Yes, the power bit is interesting. Then does Snape think both LV and DD are mistaken fools to accord Harry with such power? Valky now: No I don't think so exactly, I think that perhaps from the beginning Snape was interested in the boys in the sense that one of them possessed a power as yet not mastered by him. I can picture a snpe that is somewht covetous of anything useful or magestic within magical power, but not in order to *be powerful and dominating* as in Voldemorts reasons, I would be inclined to believe that JKR intends Snape to be revealed as *distinct* from Voldie, and pending that, I will go with this distincton for now, that Snape's motive is more pure more of a curiosity and desire to meet the challenge of something extraordinary. Something more like his interest in the Dark Arts. In his DADA class he appears to have some sort of admiration for the Dark Arts, per the Loving Caress in his voice, and the gruseome pictures adorning his walls. The regard Snape has for the Dark Arts is regard essentially for the immaculate finesse with which the Dark Arts despatches with its purpose. The genius of the magic itself, is something of a wonder to him, I am supposing. He may not share the purpose wholeheartedly, but he certainly appreciates the means. So in my saying that Snape is intersted in the Power that will Vanquish the Dark Lord I am saying moreso that he sees the Power as means worth his time an effort to procure. Regardless of what he might ever use them for, he is fascinated by the genius that one would presume was behind it. Of course Snape also has a mind to earn himself the same admiration and wonder from others around him that he has for the craft itself. His ability to do so, is unfortunately marred by his lack of empathy and understanding for *people*. He is not a people person, like Dumbledore, so he fails terribly at making the impression that he would prefer to make. I can see a Snape that tries to amaze with his marvellous mind, and becomes frustrated because it is beyond the understanding of many to see precisely how incredibly brilliant his moves are. He disguises all too well what, in a sense, he would prefer to be revealing. That he is brilliant. When Harry notes to him in the Occlumency lessons that he is capable of spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore, Snape is apparently quite pleased to have the recognition. This I am supposing is a rare moment in Snapes life, when someone openly regards his brilliance and in this moment, though it is a soft allusion, I think that JKR manages to demnstrate a mild modesty in Snape. Yet another one of his ways of sabotaging his chances to have the recognition he desires, but making him all the more a more brilliant person, because he would be quite less able than someone with more bravado (Like James or Sirius) to *relax* upon the instinct to believe he had mastered it all and could learn no more. Snape is confidnt in the truth that he has learned a gret deal more than the average man, but while he has that confidence he remains within a measure self doubt because there are greater and more powerful people than he, like Dumbledore and Voldemort. Okay I am going on and on in answering the one important question Rachel asked, but I felt it essential to construct the whole of the impetus in order to make this point with enough clarity. I don't believe that Snape thinks that LV and DD ae fools to accord Harry with such power. I believe he phased in and out of wondering if there is nothing to Harry before he saw it for himself in Harry's fifth year, and I also believe that Snape would cover logical angles in establishing for himself what was to be. Hence If there is a power that can defeat Voldemort in one fell blow, then a place to look for it might be Harry, or Neville according to the Prophecy, If this power exists, the part pf the prophecy that Snape knows gives absolutely no assurance that either boy will ever be able to weild it against Voldemort, if they do, then all very well, but he has absolutely no basis for assuming that it is that way. He knows only of the prophesied existence of a magestic power. There is no reason for him to believe that he himself could not also learn it, or weild it against Lord Voldemort. It is a small step from there to imagine that the Snape we saw in POA would give finding and using this power himself to defeat Voldemort, a try. He knows he is powerful and brilliant, he knows Voldemort very well and has studied/observed him for a long time, therefore if all that the one of these boys has is a latent power he will never use or will not be able to use for a hundred years, which is within the logical realm of possibility, then it would not be wasted nor will he have to wait for the boy to grow powerful enough, if *he too* learns what it is and manages to weild it. Rachel; If so, this definitely supports the supposition that Snape is his own man and is using both LV and DE to determine how to defeat LV, simply for the sake of glory. Following this line of argument then, Snape has taken what he can from Harry and DD and as an opportunist is moving over to the DE camp to learn what he can from them. Valky now: I believe I may have established already that I have taken Snape in an entirely different direction in my train of thought. It is plausible that Snape could use what I think he has worked upon in an OFH!ESE fashion, but I am not sure that this is what the Snape of previous books would *surely* lend to. It's likely he could go either way, so I figured that I might explore this avenue. For many reasons, one being that the death of DD can not appeal to me as something skewed negative in the scheme of things, and I find it virtually impossible to believe that snape walked out into that tower and *truly* believed that DD was helpless. In the beginning of HBP we are treated to the story that no Death Eaters would dare approach Dumbledore alone or in packs. Dumbeldore absolutely disarmed himself, in my mind, which entirely suggests he had chosen to be (or merely appear) vulnerable upon the tower. I have fallen for the masquerade, gotten up and thought again and now I am stuck on it, Dumbledore was happy enough with what occurred that night, so I have put it down to DD's motives and DD's orders and look for Snapes personal motives elsewhere, and outside of the square of the Unbreakable Vow which I'm beginning to view as a clever web spun to trap more than Snape, and Dumbledore but *us* also. Valky said: I do agree that Snape really DOES think Harry is mediocre, but I am also absolutely certain that in Harry's latest year Snape was definitely poking his hooked nose into Harry's thoughts for a reason. And it wasn't to reassure himself that Harry was mediocre. In short I would assume from your argument Rachel, that you could too imagine that Snape *wants* to be the Hero of the story. To my mind, this is the only thing that canon on Snapes attitude to Harry's Auror ambition does *not* contradict from some angle. Rachel: Yes, certainly, we are agreeing here Valky. I hadn't thought prior to this that Snape was searching Harry's mind for clues on how to defeat LV himself, but I can see now that is probable. Perhaps Snape expects Harry to die, then future plans are irrelevant. Or perhaps Snape could care less about Harry's plans for the future. Valky: I think I agree with both your suggestions Snape, I think, considers Harry separately to himself. Another entity with perhaps less chance than he of ever being the hero. If anything in Snapes regard to Harry, I think that the footrace at the end of HBP is the strongest analogy, Snape sees himself running ahead of Harry toward Voldemort, and the final face off. He goads Harry on his incompetence, which can be read as saying that Snape is working within the framework of sportsmanship, they are competing in a foot race and when close to each other Harry and himself are in direct competition, I have started to wonder if Snape was just outright sledging Harry, you won't win this race because you're stupid, you're ignorant, go home and study now, if one day you are up to my level then perhaps the game will still be on.. Rachel: Harry would not have been in Potions in HBP if Snape had been teaching it-maybe Snape is simplistic in his attitude toward Harry's career choice and does not want Harry to have anything that Harry wants because he hates Harry. If Snape is a glory hound (and I do think he is) then he would not want Harry to be an auror, which could be another venue for Harry's popularity in the ww. Valky: I do agree with what you say here, it is likely. But I don't think we are looking at a Severus Snape that expects the WW to be "business as usual" tomorrow. The singular matter of the Potter Universe is Voldemort, for Snape to see beyond that, after all that has happened, might be asking too much. Rachel: I am most anxious to see how Snape is revealed in the next book. Valky: You and me both! :D Valky replies: > During the Occlumency lessons Snape makes his long > discourse about weakness and easy prey for the Dark Lord. > Then he says Harry's is not important enough anyway, so he > ought to get over himself, *then* he calls Harry sloppy > and lazy, *and* I noted before, he gets even more > angry at Harry for not repeating his Occlumency > defense (which coincided with his memory of defending Sirius) > and finally in HBP Snape is still making noises about Harry's > incompetence and his [Ha!] intention to become an Auror, all > while secretly (and obviously to me), *studying him* internally > defending Sirius' memory, *then* Snapes final words to Harry > as he runs out of the castle wind back to the same old ground, > You can't beat me without stealth, No Unforgivables houyhnhnm: I would have to go with #1. No, I don't think Snape is scatterbrained exactly, but he is extremely compartmentalized. His hubris in thinking he is in control of the process, when it has begun to take control of him, is what brings about his downfall, IMO. Valky: I just wanted to say I loved your analysis, houyhnhnm. I agree absolutely with the contrast that you've demonstrated of Harry's consistency vs Snapes compartmentalised changingness. Harry has developed, kind of, within a single stream flowing in one direction and growing gradually wider as it goes along, he has a constancy, that Snape who has hopped from one chaneel to another and then back so many times I have totally lost track, simply doesn't. The way you describe Snapes compartmentalising process as calculating but eventually destructive, works still for me within the boundaries of the Snape that I am hypothesising but even if it didn't, I would have to say I agree with what you've said, anyway, because the shrewd to a fault Snape that you've described is very canon-like IMO. /Fabian: I've started to think of Snape using the same kind of pedagogical skills as drill sergeants do in american war movies. Honestly, if Harry is going to have any use of his Occlumency, does he have to do it when someone provoces him and insults him or when someone is nice to him and encourages him? I'm not saying I think it's the best way of teaching it, but I would imagine that could be a reason. Valky: I am not the first to say this, but I think its pertinent. What you describe above appears to be a relatively common way among wizards to *jolt* latent magic out of their young. Neville was thrown out a window by his Uncle, which is within accepted standards for Wizardkind. That this is accepted is reasonably understandable, because the Wizardfolk appear to be many thousands of times less fragile physically than muggles. That is, when their natural wandless magic appears to protect them. One could forgive a Wizard like Nevilles Uncle, who hadn't really ever known the pain of enduring muggle like wounds after being dropped from a height, for not realising if Neville *was* a squib he'd probably break his tail bone. He only knows first hand that the rough treatment works, he doesn't first hand know how much it hurts when it doesn't work, I'd suppose. Unless he'd played Quidditch before. Fabian: I totally agree with the studying of HP part, I think the occlumency lessons are important both to protect Harry but also to let Snape know how easy it is to get into his head and if there are more visions the order doesn't know of. Valky: Actually, yeah I thougt of this option, but it didn't seem to make sense. Snape could know that Voldemort was blocking Harry (who it seems has Voldies power of Legilimency within him). But vne if he doesn't, he quit teaching Harry Occlumency. He's washed his hnds of this issue if thats all there is to it, I think. In any case I am fairly sure he knows that Voldie is blocking Harry, since DD knows its a logical deduction that it was Snape who told him. Fabian: BTW, am I the only one who sees Gargamel (from the Smurfs) when I read about Snape? Valky: Actually, No you're not. I have often had an image of Gargamel pop into my mind when thinking of Snape. It's kind of funny.. but its just his image that fits for me. When I am thinking in terms of character, I think Gargamel reminds me of Filch, always trying to catch the little ones and boil them in his pot.. ;D From lcs5639 at msn.com Mon Aug 22 00:03:50 2005 From: lcs5639 at msn.com (epicurious2000) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:03:50 -0000 Subject: A possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138359 Angela wrote: > I've been thinking about the Horcrux mystery...What about the award for special services to Hogwarts > that was given to Tom Riddle ... And who would he have > killed? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138360 Sandy: > Fawkes's appearance in Chamber was due to Harry's loyalty to > Dumbledore. How? Does any student who expresses intense loyalty to > Dumbledore get a visit from Fawkes? Does Fawkes bring the Hat every > time this happens? Does each visit involve a magical artifact > appearing out the the Hat? Or were Harry's loyalty, courage and > need the prerequisites? What sort of magics were in place that > could result in the unexpected advantages Harry benefitted from in > the Chamber? Jen: My guess is Dumbledore requested Fawkes to watch over Harry while he was gone from the castle. The fact that the phoenix song was in the graveyard made me wonder if Fawkes can become invisible just as DD can. You make an interesting point about the sorting hat being involved, and also the possibility that a Gryffindor student might be able to receive help from the castle itself, from Godric's long ago placed magic. Especially if they are spending time in Slytherin's chamber! Makes sense Godric Gryffindor attempted to counteract Slytherin's dark magic with his own magic after Slytherin departed. Sandy: > Why were the Potters hiding out in Godric's Hollow? What is the > source (are the sources) of Hogwarts' long-extant protective > magics? Part of Harry's help in the Chamber is a result of magics > obviously connected with Dumbledore: at least Fawkes's appearance > must be read this way. But it seems the help is from sources even > greater than Dumbledore. I believe that Godric also left protective > magics behind, quiescent in the place he gave his name to as well > as the school he helped found. I think Lily called on those magics, > probably unconsciously, the night she died, that her courage and > her need triggered enchantments still in place since the time of > the founders. Maybe her love and sacrifice would have been enough > to save Harry that night. Maybe not. But the strength of the > protection that came away from the wreckage of that house with > Harry was pure Griffindor. Jen: Once we found out for sure there's no Gryffindor heir storyline (JKR in TLC/MN interview), I did start to wonder how James and Lily came to be living at Godric's Hollow. So you think that was actually a DD suggestion, that they move there for their own safety as well as the possibilty of accessing some GG magical protections? In that same interview, JKR did make it sound like Lily choosing to die was the only factor involved in triggering the protection. But she's also not going to bring up clues which aren't asked, I don't think! Sandy: > I also believe that I know why Harry ended up with something of > Voldemort inside him. While I do not believe that Harry is a > horcrux per se, I believe that the magical violence that night was > sufficient to send a piece of Voldemort's fractured and tattered > soul flying into Harry's forehead. It will be another irony, that > Voldemort's ultimate downfall will actually be partly the result > of his work in creating the horcruxes. A man with a whole, > unfractured soul could not have lost a piece of it to have it come > back and be instrumental in his defeat later. (It has happened at > least once already, with Harry's ability to speak Parselmouth > leading to Diary Revenant Tom Riddle's defeat in CoS.) Jen: That's a new thought, Harry is not actually a Horcrux, but does carry a piece of LV's soul in his scar. The part I'm having the most difficult time believing about an accidental or intentional Horcrux (or I guess a soul-piece as well) is that Lily's sacrifice protection should have blocked that happening. Someone on another list pointed out to me that if powers could be transferred after the sacrifice, a soul piece could as well. I can see this one going either way. JKR has set up a scenario 'never before see in the WW' and can therefore have anything happen and it will follow canon. But the idea that Voldemort created his own dowfall by fracturing his soul seems like vintage JKR! He's the master of defeating himself, and I think a case can be made that each time he attempts to defeat Harry, he is instead strengthening Harry's protections against him (not to mention weakening himself with Harry's blood). Sandy: > The protection that has kept him safe all these years has a > linchpin placed there by his mother's love. His own love for others > strengthens and reinforces it; his hatred and desire for vengeance > weakens it. In the final confrontation, only his courage and > ability to love will frustrate the "ambition" of that part of > Voldemort he carries to turn him into a tool of the man it sprang > from. Jen: Harry continues to believe (esp.under stress) that magical power must be needed to defeat Voldemort even though Dumbledore keeps insisting his power is love. In HBP, Harry seems to be having a difficult time letting go of the idea that dark magic will lead him somewhere good or powerful. Snape reminds him of that particular pitfall as he races out of Hogwarts, but of course Harry won't listen to Snape's advice. If anything, the HBP potion book will be the reason Harry starts to reject dark magic as an option, knowing it's Snape's. So in a way, Snape will be the reason he doesn't partake of that particular weakness anymore . I can't even picture a final confrontation scene at the moment, but your thought I snipped about Harry turning the other cheek to Snape could definitely be a transformation point in Book 7. Maybe he will even show Snape mercy when Snape is cornered or somehow defenseless, much like Harry did with Wormtail and Dumbledore did with Draco. Mercy seems to be a critical theme now, doesn't it? > Whew! So, is there anything of value here? Jen: Tons! Thanks Sandy. :) From juli17 at aol.com Mon Aug 22 05:14:29 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:14:29 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's master plan Message-ID: <1e0.42ef5b80.303ab935@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138361 vmonte: Nice post Larry, I completely agree. It would not be in Dumbledore's character to ask this of Snape. Dumbledore's been trying to keep Snape away from the DADA position for years because of his fear that it would tempt Snape back to the dark side. (Snape must have really forced Dumbledore's (dead) hand to get the DADA position in the last book--BTW.) Julie says: If there's anyone in HP who couldn't be forced to do something he really didn't want to do, or that didn't serve some sort of higher purpose, it's Albus Dumbledore. How could Snape have possibly forced Dumbledore into giving him the DADA position? Refused to save DD from the ring Horcrux unless DD gave him the DADA position in return? If Snape had done something that self-serving, I can't see Dumbledore going on and on about trusting Snape so completely. Nor can I see Snape being that stupid, when he knows full well the position is cursed. Voldemort is ruthless and would ask anything from his DEs including having them cut off their own arm. Dumbledore would never ask Snape to cause more damage to his soul. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I agree that this would make him as bad as Voldemort. Vivian Julie says: The key word Dumbledore used about killing damaging the soul was taking a life UNJUSTIFIABLY. If Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him for a justifiable reason--he was already as good as dead, and his death would allow Severus to infiltrate the Death Eaters and pave the way for Voldemort's defeat--then he wouldn't be asking Snape to damage to his soul even further than it already may be. I have to wonder if JKR wrote the part about murder damaging the soul as carefully as she wrote the prophecy, deliberately inserting the adverb "unjustifiably." Though it's not really a big revelation, given the Aurors use Unforgivable curses justifiably to defeat Death Eaters, and presumably their souls are safe. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Mon Aug 22 05:42:00 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:42:00 EDT Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (but maybe not 100%) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138362 Del wrote: > You're the one who keeps reminding > us that JKR has no duty towards her readers. Eggplant wrote: Yes, but she does have a duty not to betray her genius. Julie says: And who makes that judgment? Some of the things you've written seem to imply if JKR doesn't write what *you* want-- Snape ESE, Dumbledore irrefutably dead--then she will be betraying her genius. We all want to see different things happen--whether it's a particular 'ship, Snape good or bad, Harry alive or dead, etc, etc. It's only human nature to project our experiences and desires onto what we read--our *bias* if you will. And the complexity and ambiguity of the Harry Potter saga makes it especially impossible not to do so. But it is JKR's story, and I think it would be a bit immature to consider ourselves betrayed by JKR if she doesn't tell the story the way we wanted or expected. That's because JKR has no *duty* whatsoever in regards to her writing, other than to suit herself. If she wants her books to sell, she'd be smart to pay attention to her audience (and she clearly has done that very well), but she's still under no obligation to do so. No writer is. And as readers we always have the choice to toss/give away a book if the story just doesn't work for us. (With HP this could happen for me if Harry dies in the end, unless I find some at-this-moment-unanticipated way to accept it, which perhaps I would.) IMO, Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 06:01:26 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:01:26 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138363 The title of this thread caught my eye, wasn't that the title of a song by a pop group called the Waitresses some years ago? I seem to remember it started something like this: I know what Snape wants I know what wizards likes I know what Snape wants I've got what Snape likes I see him looking I make him want me I like to tease him He wants to touch me I never let him I know what Snape likes I know what wizards want Eggplant From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 06:02:14 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:02:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <1e0.42ef5b80.303ab935@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > > I have to wonder if JKR wrote the part about murder damaging > the soul as carefully as she wrote the prophecy, deliberately > inserting the adverb "unjustifiably." Though it's not really a big > revelation, given the Aurors use Unforgivable curses justifiably > to defeat Death Eaters, and presumably their souls are safe. > > Julie > Valky: I personally wouldn't go for describing it: "as carefully worded" as the prophecy, but I can see some inkling that unjustifiably could be added in a shorthand sense, as a minor disclaimer of things that are perhaps planned, (or that she wants careful readers to believe she planned ;D)for the series. In that sense, if it is a shorthand, then any clause under which a sacrifice of characters can operate will be detiled and expounded in the seventh book, but it couldn't very well build tangentially to some basis that has been established in the previous books. I think it's getting too late in the story for that, whatever it is will (presumably) have very firm roots in the previously established authority of the story. In specific terms, the use of unforgivables by Aurors is ,yes, a precedent that might make such a clause *less* startling, but I don't know that it could excuse Snape, mostly on the basis that the narrative in GOF where this matter is being discused tends slightly to be disapproving of the notion. I got the sense that the authoritative voice was definitely leaning toward condemnation of such an idea. So I doubt that it could be built on as a basis for letting Sevvie off the hook. That said, however, I think the basis of self-sacrifice, Dumbledore's greater plan for defeating Voldemort and the choices between right and easy, cover enough ground for building upon in the positive direction for Snape. I see no *absolute* dissapproval in canon of the possibilities rooted in these themes. I do believe that there is a clause to "murder" in the Potterverse, it's not yet explained but it has fertile ground to spring from, IMHO. Valky From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 06:36:25 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:36:25 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (but maybe not 100%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138365 juli17 at a... wrote: > Some of the things you've written seem > to imply if JKR doesn't write what > *you* want-- Snape ESE, Dumbledore > irrefutably dead--then she will be > betraying her genius. If Dumbledore comes back from the dead then JKR has missed the ball no doubt about it, she's still a genius but she missed the ball. And I wish people would stop with this "ESE" nonsense; Snape is evil, Snape is a villain, but Snape is not Doctor Doom or Lex Luther; Snape is more complex than that and would not feel comfortable in a comic book. > JKR has no *duty* whatsoever in regards to > her writing, other than to suit herself. I could not agree with you more. If a genius of JKR's caliber is happy with the next book I don't have the slightest doubt I will be happy with it too. Eggplant From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 22 06:57:20 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:57:20 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: <004701c5a6a8$8f4f42a0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138366 > Elanor Pam said: > Actually, what I see is that Voldemort had problems feeling empathy, > probably slightly autistic in nature. > > Lupinlore said: > We have had an emphasis on the > importance of choice and JKR's statements about how no one is born > evil. Rachel writes: I actually think that JKR has provided us with the story of 2 children brought up in unloving environments, both orphans, and the divergent character development that insues. This to me is a contradiction in the choice matter as they have similar beginnings and extreme differences in character. > > Harry, unloved and mistreated for the first 11 years of his life, is a good person with a strong understanding of right and wrong. He values friendships, relationships, and has empathy for others. For those 11 years, he has no idea what his parents were like or how much they have sacrificed because they love him. On the other side, we have Tom Riddle, brought up in an orphanage. Even as a student, Riddle is already trying to manipulate others to amass power for himself. He is a loner with no friends and enjoys frightening other children. He shows at Hogwarts that he is not above blaming innocent people for things to go his way. > > One has to wonder why Harry turned out to be such a decent person, while Tom turned out to be truly evil, if their personalities are not grounded in nature. LV also seems to me, so far, to be a shallow fairly uncomplicated character, whereas Harry has some depth to his character and struggles with his emotions. > > Rachel Deb (djklaugh)- another Deb or the other Deb ;) writes: Rachel there are several very, very important differences between Harry's childhood and TR's! And these differences are IMO the key to why they make such radically different choices in how they live their lives 1-Harry was born to healthy parents who both apparently come from good genetic stock. And I would imagine that Lily did everything she could possibly do to insure she had a healthy child - she most likely ate properly, exercised, took vitamins, etc. TR, on the other hand, came from at least one family where there is a history of mental instability and generations of inbreeding (think of Harry's Aunt Marge "It's one of the basic rules of breeding ... If there's something wrong with the bitch, there'll be something wrong with the pup") and Merope was malnourished during her pregnancy plus extremely stressed by being abandoned and being on her own for the first time. 2-Harry was born into a family- a mother and father who loved each other and who both wanted to have a child! He had 15 months of good old fashioned nurturing - cuddling, rocking, loving, gentleness, good food, kindness, guidance, physical and emotional warmth -- and I would wager he got this from both parents and also from any friend who came to visit. He probably also had toys, outings, sweets on occasion, all the usual things a loving parent gives to their child. So Harry had about 9 1/2 years at the Durselys where as TR had his whole life at the orphanage. And TR came from a father who wanted nothing to do with him and a mother who was physically, emotionally, and spiritually depleted - she had nothing more to give and TR was born one hour before she died. After that he was raised in an orphanage. "...a grim place in which to grow up" according to Dumbledore. Here he would most likely have had many different care givers, who would have had little time to give to each child. He probably had to compete with many other children for attention, for food, for any little extras there might have been. Remember this is where he began taking "trophies" from his victims. He had no opportunity to bond with one or two people, he formed no attachments to anyone, even from birth he was detached from other humans. 3-Even after his parents died, Harry was raised by relatives. Yes the Dursleys are not much to shout about, but they are family and Petunia is blood kin to Harry. No matter how emotionally abusive and physically neglectful they were, growing up in a family setting was a darn sight more that what TR got at the orphanage. At age 11 Harry did not know much about his parents but he did know their names, and he did know that he had family. That's much more than TR knew about his heritage at age 11. These things may seem minor to you, but they are as I said the key to why each boy made the choices he did ... and why they have become the people they are. Harry had the early childhood base of good parenting, of being given all the love and nurturing he needed. This is why he is so able to give and receive love... this gift was enhanced by his mother's sacrifice, certainly, but he had it even before that. TR got from his parents only his existence. It is the early years of childhood... the formative years.. that are key here. IMO. Deb (djklaugh) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 07:01:43 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:01:43 -0000 Subject: Help to understand ESE and other Acronym sRe: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138367 >Eggplant said: > I wish people would stop with this "ESE" nonsense; Snape is evil, > Snape is a villain, but Snape is not Doctor Doom or Lex Luther; Snape > is more complex than that and would not feel comfortable in a comic > book. Valky: Hi Eggplant, I don't mean here to try and incite any ill-will but I'd thought I should mention that it seems to me you may have misunderstood the nuance of the use of acronym terms which has always been quite predominant ot this discussion group. ESE!ing the character you see, it intentionally a little nonsensical, it's tongue in cheek humour *mostly* to compare Snape the Villian to DR Doom etc, It doesn't take on so much a literal meaning as it does a parody of the poster's enthusiasm and attachment to their own interpretation. I thought that considering the number of new members since the release of HBP and the fact that this particular matter has arisen more than once in the past week, it would be diplomatic of me to try and make a general statement for all regarding our acronyms. I certainly don't speak as a listelf or for them, and I apologise if I have unjustifiably overstepped the boundaries by doing this, essentially speaking for myself but with confidence that my understanding of the issue would be helpful to others. Of course everyone, most importantly, should make themselves fairly familiar with the Admin files found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/ all the files are reader friendly, concise (as possible ;P), and presented with all the good humouredness that we enjoy about being a part of this group. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 07:19:37 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:19:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A possible Horcrux - NOT! References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138368 (snip below) - I don't belive this one. The trophy might be at the safest place in the WW, but its DD's domain, with Harry and the others close by. If it was a Horcrux, then DD could have found and destroyed it by now with the greatest of ease. It fits the pattern very well; I don't belive that DD would have overlooked it. Therefore, I think that this is a red herring. Chris Angela wrote: > I've been thinking about the Horcrux mystery...What about the award for special services to Hogwarts > that was given to Tom Riddle ... And who would he have > killed? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138370 Sorry for an unintended empty post. Yes, I also subscribe to the theory that Dumbledore's death was faked. A wizard of his powers surely might have pulled this off. As for a motive: Dumbledore says to Harry that Voldemort wouldn't want the person who drunk the green potion to die immediately; he would want to interrogate them. I think that implies that Voldemort would be somehow alerted to the fact that somebody meddled with his Horcrux. I wonder if V-mort would be able to determine who the person in question was. I suspect he would be able to pin down Dumbledore as the offender. Now, Voldie gets the general idea that Dumbledore is after his horcruxes. But if D-dore fakes own death immediately after visiting the cave, maybe Voldie calms down a little. Especially if he gets the idea that Dumbledore was alone in the cave enterprise. So the Horcrux hunt can be continued without Voldie's interference. Cheers, Two2 From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 10:01:14 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:01:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138371 "colebiancardi": > > Nope, I cannot buy that reason. This is an Ex-Death Eater and now > turned spy for Dumbledore. Do you really think he would just accept > him with open arms and not make sure Snape's story checked out? That > there HAD to be some proof of Snape's turn to good(i.e. I'm still > sticking with my Regulus Theory).... > > Dumbledore is trusting, but he isn't a fool. He didn't trust Riddle, > he didn't give Riddle a chance when Riddle came to apply for the DADA > job. Finwitch: Dumbledore would, however, require a reason NOT to trust someone rather than a reason to trust. Tom Riddle has given him that reason one way or other. If only his bullying before he came to the school; maybe Tom even tried to use some sort of Legilimency Charm he had successfully used on other teachers on Dumbledore, who of course wasn't tricked by it? As for that, Dumbledore does use Legilimency when he doubts - Harry's experienced this often enough. As for Snape - well, he's an Occlumens and he hasn't given Dumbledore a reason not to trust him. And don't forget that Crouch Jr. managed to fool Dumbledore to think he was Alastor Moody for a while... I think it possible that Snape could use the same sort of trick as Tom did with Harry: showing him memories that made it seem that Hagrid had been the guilty one. Finwitch From elbarad at aol.com Mon Aug 22 10:21:27 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:21:27 -0000 Subject: That Night at *Godric's* Hollow...and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138372 > Jen: My guess is Dumbledore requested Fawkes to watch over Harry > while he was gone from the castle. The fact that the phoenix song > was in the graveyard made me wonder if Fawkes can become invisible > just as DD can. I attributed the pheonix song in the graveyard to have come from the core of Harry's and Voldemort's wands. Both wands contained a feather from Fawkes's tale which is why the reverse wand effect happened. I Beleived that the song came from the phoenix feather, and that harry drew comfort from it because he associated phoenix song with Fawkes and Dumbledore. Of course, it is possible that Fawkes maintained some connection with Harry through the feather in the wand. But would he also maintain a connection with LV who also had possession of a feather? After all, Fawkes appears to be a force of good. I'd certainly be interested to know what Voldemort was thinking and feeling during the reverse wand effect! Rebecca From elbarad at aol.com Mon Aug 22 10:39:17 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:39:17 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: <005101c5a6a0$40ce3080$0701010a@harrypotter> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138373 Eleanor > Actually, what I see is that Voldemort had problems feeling empathy, > probably slightly autistic in nature. I think you are thinking of psychopaths/ sociapaths. Such people, whilst aware of feelings in others do not consider these things to matter. They understand social rules and so can comply with them when they need to be seen to be following them, but don't feel that these rules actually apply to them (think of how Tom was able to be seen as a model student - no autistic child could do that). But at a very basic level they are unencumbered by guilt or feelings of empathy. Autism is very different. Most autistic children are very affectionate and caring, only their awareness of the complexity of other people's emotions is limited. Once alerted to the fact that their actions were hurting others they would be likely to be mortified. What they lack is the automatic ability to see the point of view of others. Voldemort doesn't give a monkeys about the point of view of others, but he doe shave the understanding, which is how come he can manipulate people so easily. I hope you can see the distinction. Please feel free to send me a private message of you wish to query any of the above. Rebecca (mother of Kaia, a very wonderful little autistic girl) From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 22 11:39:14 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:39:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > As for Snape - well, he's an Occlumens and he hasn't given Dumbledore > a reason not to trust him. And don't forget that Crouch Jr. managed > to fool Dumbledore to think he was Alastor Moody for a while... I > think it possible that Snape could use the same sort of trick as Tom > did with Harry: showing him memories that made it seem that Hagrid > had been the guilty one. > > Finwitch ahh. Let me clarify - when Snape was a student at Hogwarts, yes, there was probably no reason for DD not to trust him. However, Snape became a Death Eater - He wasn't born one, he became one(sometime shortly after he left Hogwarts, I am guessing). He told Voldemort the prophecy - what he heard, of course. So, when Snape went back to Dumbledore, there were several reasons why Dumbledore should not trust Snape. The fact that Snape would now what to *betray* Voldemort by turning spy for DD, should & probably did raise DD's eyebrows. DD knows about Snape's mastery at Occlumens, so without a water-tight reason, why would Dumbledore trust Snape when he turned? And over the course of 16 years or so, Snape has proven his loyality to DD, but back in 1980-1981, that history wasn't there. So it has to be something else. DD doesn't even trust all the members of the OotP with the mission of destroying the horcruxes - at least we don't know if he hasn't told anyone outside of Harry. To call DD a trusting fool is incorrect. He trusts people to do the right thing, but also understands human nature. I don't think Dumbledore would have lived to be 150 years old just by *trusting* people without a reason. On the Fake!Moody point, DD didn't have a lot of contact with him when he was at Hogwarts in GoF. When Moody was hired, it was the real Moody DD was talking to, not the Fake!Moody. Even Snape, master at Legilimens that he is, didn't catch onto Fake!Moody until the end, and even at that, he really didn't. Dumbledore was the one who exposed Moody for the fake that he was. JMHO colebiancardi From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 22 07:32:22 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:32:22 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138376 >Larry: > Of course Snape had a choice, he could have ignored > her request, or even refused outright. What was the > downside, Bella would think poorly of him?, and her > opinion he values as highly as he values his own life? >houyhnhnm: >If Snape is *not* aware of Voldemort's plan before the sisters came to >his house, then what he learns at the very beginning of the interview >is that there is a plot involving Draco. A plot involving Draco means >a plot against Hogwarts. Snape may feel that he is justified in using >any means necessary to obtain information, in that case. Elyse: Im afraid I have to agree with Larry here. Snape is an extremely intelligent person and also a Slytherin ("given the choice we always choose to save our own necks"). If Snape had no idea of what Dracos task was, I doubt he would be stupid enough to risk his life with a UV just to get information on what it was. I mean info was important but not as important as his life surely? He could have used Legilimency, Veritaserum, any number of other methods to find out what Voldy was making Draco do. This forces me to conclude that Snape knew about the task. He surely must have told Dumbledore as soon as he found out. And DD being the merciful man that he is would have thought of trying to save Draco while saving himself. However I dont think he had come up with any sort of plan when Snape took the UV. I think he must have been shocked and angry when Snape told him what he had done. But once the UV was taken it was perfectly clear what was going to happen. DD could save Draco by letting Snape kill him, or he could save himself and let Draco and Snape die. So once Snape stepped into the tower he knew how it could have played out. But DD staying alive was pointless without his Ace card: Snape in the DE inner circle. So I think the pleading was asking Snape to kill him. As for Snape's motivations in taking the UV, I'm afraid I must agree with Larry again and backtrack on what I said before. He had a choice. He chose to take the vow. I believe this may be explained by the whole Narcissa-the-rich-influential-pureblood-at-the-mercy-of Snape-the-poor-unpopular-bullied-halfblood. I guess the temptation to prove himself superior with the sudden reversal of roles was too much for old Sevvie. On another matter Lupinlore: >In terms of your tolerance for contradiction, I think the situation >is more complicated. Both Good!Snape and Evil!Snape face a number >of >plot holes and contradictions. You can either try to solve these >holes and contradictions in a way that supports your position or >you >can simply take the position that the saga will have numerous holes >and contradictions regardless of how it comes out. *Sigh* You have spelled out my worst fear Lupinlore. Im afraid Book 7 will have large gaping plotholes The more Good!Snape/ESE!Snape speculation continues, the more convinced I become that JKR has not thought this through!!!! I just hope that I am proved wrong. Sorry about rambling, will not happen again Elyse From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 11:49:16 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:49:16 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138377 Rachel wrote: >> One has to wonder why Harry turned out to be such a decent person, >>while Tom turned out to be truly evil, if their personalities are >>not grounded in nature. LV also seems to me, so far, to be a >>shallow fairly uncomplicated character, whereas Harry has some depth >>to his character and struggles with his emotions. Deb wrote: >Rachel there are several very, very important differences between >Harry's childhood and TR's! And these differences are IMO the key to >why they make such radically different choices in how they live >their lives Ceridwen: First, no one's mentioned that children have no choice about their lives. At least, not their physical existence, and not their upbringing. This is most clearly illustrated in the birth situation of both boys. Tom didn't choose for his mother to die, any more than Harry chose to be cared for, for fifteen months. Neither had a frame of reference for a 'correct' upbringing. They had no knowledge. My mother was raised in an orphanage around the same time as TR was raised in one. If my mother was a HP character, she would have been Hogwarts class of 1942. His orphanage sounds smaller than hers, though I doubt if the staff per number of children was much different. The staff at the orphanage relied on the older children to help with the younger ones. Even so, there were some staff mistakes. Such as the night my mother fell out of bed, broke her collarbone, cried about it all night, and they attributed it to her just having been brought in. No one checked until morning, since a new arrival often did cry all night. The 'kids' my mother still sees at the every-three-years reunions came in a variety of types. There were several cruel children who terrorized the others. There were several needy children who, like my mother, are still hopefully searching for love and taking a great deal of abuse of all sorts in order to be liked. There were several who grew up just fine, as if they had been raised in a (very large!) family. My aunt is one of those. The 'kids' in the last two groups all, or most, seem to be thankful they didn't have the depridations of the Great Depression to live through like their friends at school did. An orphanage is a charity case, and there are donations which make certain unpleasantries less of an issue. I don't know about TR's orphanage. The matron seemed to be a bit of a boozer, which may have had an impact not only on the children, but on the staff. And at that time, many illegitimate kids were sent to orphanages, and illigitimacy carried a heavy stigma with it as well. Did they think Tom was illegitimate? Could this have colored the way they thought of him? Still, with a variety of caregivers at the home, Tom was exposed to many different types of people who react in different ways. He was able to see good, bad, irresponsible, and so on. And orphans are not isolated from the general public. They attend school in the community, and after a certain age, can get jobs. As for church, my mother's orphanage brought in ministers from various denominations, and had a rabbi once a year. If Tom's orphanage is run by a charity organization, they probably were under a specific denomination, and the kids would have attended services. So he would have been instructed in right from wrong, at least on Saturdays/Sundays. As a child gets older, and is exposed to different people and ideas, they become more able to choose. I do think nature plays a part in things, and in the case of mental disorders (as well as physical handicaps) can override upbringing, *to an extent*. However, a person with some sort of inborn need to hurt others, can learn to redirect. Tom chose not to. Maybe because the older kids who mentored him were cruel themselves (a failure of the staff to rescue him). Still, he saw different people, and knew there were other ways. As an adult, he became culpable for his own actions, and could have consciously chosen to reform himself, or at least remove himself from negative stimuli. Still, maybe this whole line of thought is meant to show the one exception to the rule of choice. It's possible, as there are things, handicaps, that make it impossible for someone to fulfill certain expectations. And, as has been pointed out here before, Tom was a budding wizard with apparently great powers, something the orphanage staff had no knowledge of, and no way to counter his use of magic. Which gave Tom an early and stunning taste of such power over others. And here is the lack of choice on the part of a child, in that the WW should have taken Tom to a Wizarding orphanage or placed him with a Wizarding family who would be able to counter, guide and mentor his magic. Tom couldn't have done that. He was a child and didn't have the choice to leave the orphanage. In all, my mother is more like Harry in her situation. She was two when she went to the orphanage, and does remember her mother's death. She also on some level remembered being loved and adored as someone special as opposed to just being part of 'one big family'. And she has spent the rest of her life looking for that particular sort of love. Which I can see in Harry when he takes so strongly to Molly Weasley, for instance, and builds sudden hopes of living with Sirius. His quest for information beyond what he (may subconsciously) remember of his parents rings true, too. He could give in to jealousy that his friends have families and he does not, but his need to find place and love will, I think, naturally be much stronger. As it has been for others in the same situation. Most people do want what they are unable to attain. And, the Dursleys. Harry is exposed to a family where Tom was not. His cousin is loved and doted over, to his detriment as Dumbledore so aptly mentioned. But, Harry sees a family through the window of his rejection, not a bunch of identically dressed kids lining up for meals. Despite their treatment of Harry, I do think the Dursleys, left to the three of them, are a loving, if misguided and even dysfunctional, family. Harry can see it. And, Harry has the luxury of visiting outside the Dursley household. He visits the Weasleys, who are a loving family. Tom never had the chance to see family in an orphanage. IMO, Tom's inborn nature from the Gaunts (can't say what he got from the Riddles, all we know is they were rich) could have been channeled by a competent upbringing. He did have another lineage which could have been tapped. Harry's early loving upbringing could have been quelched by cruelty. It would have been easy for him to become jealous, then bitter. They both began to make choices as they were exposed to people and ideas. Tom consistently made the 'easy' choices, to terrorize and browbeat; Harry searched for love. JMO, Ceridwen. From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Mon Aug 22 11:49:52 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:49:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's treatment and pensieve /James v Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138378 > Alla: > > Well, even though JKR indeed said that Pensieve is objective, I do > think that Snape MAY have been played with the memory itself before > he put it into pensieve( just as Slughorn did with his) And I think > he indeed downplayed at least his responces. Just speculation of > course. I think Snape's fury at Harry's intrusion into his memories is genuine. Therefore, IMO it makes no sense that Snape would modify his memory, when he never intended Harry to see it! > > I don't really want to get into debate about Pensieve scene again( I believe that there is a backstory there we are not privy to yet I'm afraid I missed any previous huge debate on the Pensieve. What has always made me think is - Why that memory particularly?? We know from Sirius, that James & Snape were forever hexing each other, so Harry could have probably intruded on any number of Snape's memories where James was getting the better of Snape. The only two other things that stand out are (1) Snape's treatment of Lily and (2) the fact that James used Snape's own spell on him. Since I am a believer that Snape had feelings for Lily, I think that maybe he was embarassed by his treatment of Lily!! Or it could just be that if you try hard enough, you can fit any theory to the little hard evidence JKR provides!! > > To me adult James was a hero, who defied Voldemort and who died > trying to save his wife and son. > Just playing Devil's advocate here; 1. James continued to attack Snape even after he started dating Lily (although Lily never knew). He may have been more mature for Lily now, but the cruel streak remained!! 2. There aren't many fathers who wouldn't die to protect their families! 3. He did defy Voldemort, but bravery does not necessarily equate to goodness. If you are to compare them directly, they are/were both cruel at times, they are both brave (whichever side Snape is on), they are both powerful wizards. The only difference, from the evidence we have, is that James was definitely against Voldemort, whereas Snape's allegiance is unclear!! Brothergib From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Aug 22 12:11:04 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:11:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138379 > Finwitch: [...] > > As for that, Dumbledore does use Legilimency when he doubts - > Harry's experienced this often enough. > [...] > As for Snape - well, he's an Occlumens and he hasn't > given Dumbledore a reason not to trust him. And don't > forget that Crouch Jr. managed to fool Dumbledore to > think he was Alastor Moody for a while... I think it > possible that Snape could use the same sort of trick > as Tom did with Harry: showing him memories that made > it seem that Hagrid had been the guilty one. houyhnhnm: Dumbledore doesn't rely solely on legilimency to determine the truth. He also uses observation and logic. The exposure of Fake Moody is a good example. "The real Moody would not have removed you from my sight after what happened tonight. The moment he took you I knew--and I followed." (GoF, AE, p. 680) Dumbledore discovered that Moody was a fake because his action was inconsistent with what the real Moody would have done. Surely, he would analyze Snape's behavior in the same way, especially since he knows that Snape excels at occlumency. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Aug 22 12:14:23 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:14:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's treatment and pensieve /James v Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050822121423.31074.qmail@web86201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138380 --- Alla wrote: >> > I don't really want to get into debate about > Pensieve scene again( > I believe that there is a backstory there we are not > privy to yet That was really stupid then of Sirius and Lupin not to explain this backstory to Harry, when Harry was so obviously upset about his father. > > To me adult James was a hero, who defied Voldemort > and who died > > trying to save his wife and son. Lots of less than perfect men would protect their wife and child. Uncle Vernon in GoF comes to mind - he had all the reasons to believe that Weasleys are a bunch of murderous psychos, yet he is ready to protect Petunia and Dudley with his life. Does that make him an OK guy, then? I'm not saying that James didn't do some heroic things in the first war, it might well be that he was a real hero. But we haven't seen anything yet. Irene ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 22 12:16:34 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:16:34 -0000 Subject: Genius? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138381 I'm a bit unhappy about the use of this word "genius" being applied to JKR. She's a fantastic writer. I enjoy her books immensely. But...genius. If you apply this word to Jo, what have you got to describe Shakespeare, Mozart, Dickens, Michaelangelo. These people are geniuses. Jo is just very, very good. From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 12:41:24 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:41:24 -0000 Subject: Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > I'm a bit unhappy about the use of this word "genius" being applied to > JKR. She's a fantastic writer. I enjoy her books immensely. > But...genius. If you apply this word to Jo, what have you got to > describe Shakespeare, Mozart, Dickens, Michaelangelo. These people are > geniuses. Jo is just very, very good. Genius??? I dunno...labels typically stink; however, when you consider her international sales, all the translations, and her appeal to both old and young audiences, we'd be hard pressed to call her anything less than a phenomenon.. Doddie, Whose list of very, very good writers is quite long actually. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 22 12:43:40 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:43:40 -0400 Subject: DD's definitely dead (Snape)? Message-ID: <002201c5a717$1ff65190$3562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138383 strawberryshaunie >>I know this has been discussed before, and the actual quote is still open to interpretation, but Snape actually said "a stopper IN death". This makes a huge difference, because it means Snape's talking about bottling poison, not an antidote. "Stopper" means cork or lid, meaninghe could teach anyone with enough competence to make and cork death in a bottle. CathyD: The actual quote is "bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death --" (PS 102 Can Ed) At least that is the quote in both my versions. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 13:17:46 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:17:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <20050820225753.91391.qmail@web60413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lawrence Carlin wrote: > Remember, it is our choices that makes us who we are. > And if we choose to act as the Dark Lord, we will > become as the Dark Lord. A choice Dumbledore would > never make, and a path he would never follow. > > Larry I would argue that our choices reveal who we really are. They don't make us, they show us. This is the biblical concept of "You will know them by their fruits." So Dumbledore's or anyone else's, character is not shaped by his choices. Rather, his choices are dictated by his character. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 22 13:22:56 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:22:56 -0400 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! Message-ID: <002b01c5a71c$9c268460$3562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138385 vmonte: >>P126, SS "It happened very suddenly. The hooked-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead." CathyD: It was my understanding, after we found out it was Quirrell who was after the stone, the pain came from VapourMort, not from Snape making eye-contact with Harry. Harry knows pain in his scar is connected to proximity to, or some other emotional connection to, LV. LV was attached to the back of Quirrell's head. IMO Snape couldn't be looking "past" the turban if Quirrell wasn't facing him. Harry was getting a full view of LV behind the turban. It was LV's first opportunity to catch a glimpse of Potter. They were face to face so to speak. I can't really comment on the rest of your post, hence the big old snip, because I don't believe that Harry is a Horcrux. Slughorn indicted to Riddle that a spell was needed to encase the piece of soul inside the item to be made into a Horcrux. LV had no time to do that. He was ripped from his body instantly. Besides, I think Dumbledore would have figured it out, he's been working on this for years. He knows what Grindelwald did and what was necessary to defeat him. "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. *Not something he intended to do*, I'm sure --" The "It certainly seems so" is indicating response to what he already said. The bit of himself being some of his powers not a piece of his soul. Certainly Dumbledore would have querried this to bits before he decided on Nagini being the 6th Horcrux? The soul has to be split by murder to make a Horcrux, the 'significant' murder that night was going to be Harry's to make the final Horcrux. LV's soul wasn't split because he didn't kill Harry. Yes, he'd already killed Lily and James but saying that LV made Harry into a Horcrux with their death(s) and then was going to kill him, just doesn't work, IMO. If Harry is a Horcrux, why is Voldemort so intent on having him dead? He wanted Quirrell to kill Harry to acquire the Philosopher's Stone. Diary!Riddle wanted Harry dead. GoF's graveyard scene speaks for itself. LV possessing Harry in the Atrium at the MoM so that Dumbledore would kill Harry in an attempt to kill LV, is also, LV wanting Harry dead. Dumbledore realized then that it wasn't his own destruction LV was after, but Harry's. LV wouldn't want Harry dead if he is a Horcrux...that would be destroying himself and making himself that much more vulnerable, IMO, not stronger. If, in killing Harry, LV recovered the piece of his soul that was inside a Horcrux!Harry, he would still be "a mortal man with a maimed and diminished soul." LV knows that if he recovers those pieces of soul (if they can be recovered) he will no longer be 'immortal'...he doesn't want that, he's too afraid of death. Sorry, too longwinded. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 22 13:28:30 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:28:30 -0000 Subject: That Night at *Godric's* Hollow...and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138386 > > Jen: My guess is Dumbledore requested Fawkes to watch over Harry > > while he was gone from the castle. The fact that the phoenix > > song was in the graveyard made me wonder if Fawkes can become > > invisible just as DD can. Rebecca: > I attributed the pheonix song in the graveyard to have come from > the core of Harry's and Voldemort's wands. Both wands contained a > feather from Fawkes's tale which is why the reverse wand effect > happened. I Beleived that the song came from the phoenix feather, > and that harry drew comfort from it because he associated phoenix > song with Fawkes and Dumbledore. Jen: *thunks head* You're right, I was trying to make my other thought work about Fawkes in COS and forgot we have an explanation for Fawkes in the graveyard. But I did find my answer in FBAWTFT, that the phoenix can definitely disappear and reappear at will. We saw that in OOTP, but I wasn't sure if it was like apparating or if Fawkes could remain 'disappeared'--I'll bet he can remain invisible for some time. So the phoenix song came out of the wand, through the phoenix tail feather. I wonder if Voldemort knew before then he carried a wand with a feather from Fawkes? I do think that's why Ollivander is missing, Voldemort is attempting to get another wand made. Another mistake, if true!! You could fill a book with what Voldemort underestimates . One of my favorite things about the phoenix (from FBAWTFT) is that the phoenix song increases courage of the pure of heart and strikes fear in the hearts of the impure. So Harry was drawing courage from the song itself, as he later does while re-telling the tale to Dumbledore and Fawkes sings a single note to help Harry begin the story. Rebecca: > Of course, it is possible that Fawkes maintained some connection > with Harry through the feather in the wand. But would he also > maintain a connection with LV who also had possession of a > feather? After all, Fawkes appears to be a force of good. I'd > certainly be interested to know what Voldemort was thinking and > feeling during the reverse wand effect! Jen: If Riddle had been a different type of person when he came to Hogwarts, I think he too could have had a connection to Fawkes and his help. If Fawkes only gave two feathers for wands and phoenixes are immensely loyal, it seems like Fawkes would feel a connection to the wand holders. But not someone like Riddle, who mistrusted Dumbledore from the beginning and proved himself to be impure of heart early on. Jen From ellcam at cox.net Mon Aug 22 13:21:49 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:21:49 -0400 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) References: Message-ID: <001701c5a71c$73fc88e0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138387 Deb wrote: No matter how emotionally abusive and physically neglectful they were, growing up in a family setting was a darn sight more that what TR got at the orphanage. I have to disagree with you on this one Deb. I think it is far worse to be emotionally abused by your family, people who SHOULD love you, but don't. We are agreeing that "stock" is an important part of the outcome of Harry and LV's lives. But JKR is providing us with foils in Harry and LV who have similar beginnings. If genetics/bad blood were the only reason for Riddle's demise, then why doesn't the same argument hold for Sirius Black? He was raised by a "dark" family-yet he turns out different. Maybe is is a simple matter of some people are good, some are not, regardless of familial or genetic influence. At this point, the picutre of LV is incomplete (for me). A man driven by fear of death becomes the most powerful dark wizard... Of course, the beauty of life is we all bring our backgrounds and ideas to form our opinions... Rachel From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Aug 22 12:36:56 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:36:56 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138388 > Lupinlore: > >In terms of your tolerance for contradiction, I think the situation > >is more complicated. Both Good!Snape and Evil!Snape face a number > >of > >plot holes and contradictions. You can either try to solve these > >holes and contradictions in a way that supports your position or > >you > >can simply take the position that the saga will have numerous holes > >and contradictions regardless of how it comes out. > >Ellecain: > *Sigh* > You have spelled out my worst fear Lupinlore. > Im afraid Book 7 will have large gaping plotholes > The more Good!Snape/ESE!Snape speculation continues, > the more convinced I become that > JKR has not thought this through!!!! > I just hope that I am proved wrong. > Well, I guess we need to be clear that being a good thinker is not necessarily the same thing as being a methodical and thorough thinker. There are many ways you can be a good thinker. JKR is a very good thinker in some ways, such as in creative settings and interestingly presented characters. However, she just isn't a very methodical thinker -- as she herself admits when it comes to matters dealing with numbers and math. I suspect she isn't always a very thorough thinker, either. Oh, I'm sure she's telling the truth that she has pages and pages of notes and background, but I suspect most of that is simply extra anecdotes and detail that haven't been thoroughly thought through and integrated into her main plotlines. JKR is wonderful with detail, but not so good at making sure the details add up into some kind of logically or thematically coherent pattern. I think a lot of the complaints that greeted HBP, particularly about how it seemed like OOTP never happened, illustrate this. I suspect that JKR simply hadn't thought through the implications of a lot of the stuff that happened and was said in OOTP. And when those implications became more obvious through fan discussions/arguments, she jumped back from them like a scalded cat. I suspect a lot of the contradictory and problematic situations that still exist in canon arise from the same source -- as you say, JKR just didn't think things through thoroughly before she dropped them in, and then she's forced to either ignore them or scramble retroactively to patch the holes. To wit: Why didn't the marauder's map betray Pettigrew much earlier than it did? Why did Fake!Moody go through such a song and dance to get a portkey in Harry's hand when he could have just enchanted anything, had Harry pick it up, and then say "No, I haven't seen the boy?" Why, if Dumbledore was so upset at the way the Dursleys treated Harry, didn't he drop in and straighten the situation out at some point in the relevant years? Why don't wizards ever use their apparation ability to apparate behind their opponent in the midst of a duel? Why, if DD suspected that Occlumency would eventually be necessary for Harry, did he not teach it to him early on instead of waiting until the ox was in the ditch? The list goes on. Explanations are, of course, possible, but I think the real explanation in each of those cases, and many more besides, is because JKR just didn't think of that. Lupinlore From ushit_k at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 13:00:47 2005 From: ushit_k at yahoo.com (ushit_k) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:00:47 -0000 Subject: Potions in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138389 Angela wrote: > But what about the Veritaserum? Any > thoughts on this? Veritaserum is used as a interrogative purpose. Dumbledore used it to question fake Moody, Umbridge tried to use it to question Harry about the whereabouts of Sirius. I think that the ministry of Magic uses it in it's criminal investigations. It is more a part of the technique of magic (rather like legilimens). Similliarly the other potions are also part of the techniques of magic that the characters use for their purposes. Ushit_K From sladjanast at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 05:25:03 2005 From: sladjanast at yahoo.com (sladjanast) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 05:25:03 -0000 Subject: Why Snape may not be all evil after all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138390 Hi everyone, I have been lurking for years and forgive me if the message does not exactly fit the form but I'm so excited about something I just realized that I have to share it. Let me just say first that I'm no fan of Snape's and believe that he is really a nasty, evil man. However, upon rereading HBP for the umpth time, look what I noticed: "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth..." This is the scene in the cave where Harry's forcing DD to drink what's left of the potion hiding the horcrux. Fast forward to the moment just before Snape AKs Dumbledore: "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." Harry hating himself vs. hatred etched in Snape's face. Harry repulsed vs. Snape's revulsion (etched, etc). Don't you think that it is possible that DD only pleded 'Severus' after already telling him wordlessly someting like 'do what you promissed you would' or 'remember what we agreed on' just like he made Harry promisse he would do everything he asked him before they set off to find the horcrux? Meaning, DD and Snape had a plan we don't know of yet that included Snape killing DD if he had to. That could explain Snape's 'DON'T CALL ME A COWARD' etc. My appologies if this has already been discussed, it is impossible to read everything, and I was really excited to spot this. Then again, maybe it's just nothing... Cheers! Sladjanast From gbethman at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 05:59:43 2005 From: gbethman at yahoo.com (Gopal B) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tom Riddle Goes Home In-Reply-To: <1124567501.1616.32463.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050822055943.50482.qmail@web33506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138391 Carodave: When Tom Riddle first visits the Gaunt house, he meets Uncle Morfin for the first time. He enters the house, and immediately begins to speak to Morfin...in Parseltongue. How does he know to do this? Gopal: Thats because Uncle Morfin shouts in parseltongue "YOU, WHY ARE YOU HERE" assuming its Tom Riddle Sr. Thats when Tom Riddle says "stop" in parseltongue. Gopal. From ushit_k at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 13:08:27 2005 From: ushit_k at yahoo.com (ushit_k) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:08:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: <4307EE6B.9060307@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138392 Jazmyn: > her EVERYTHING. She might realize that Snape was bound by the > unbreakable vow and had no choice. Harry blinds himself with hatred and > refuses to see what the vow would have forced Snape to do. Ushit_K But I believe that neither Harry nor Hermione realize that Snape is under UV. How can they know that? Jazmyn: > the insight to realize that Snape is more valuable to the Order as a spy > close to Voldemort then Dumbledore is as an old man with a crippled hand > and waning powers... Ushit_K Even an old and waning Dumbledore is a powerful asset. He stood up to Voldemort, defeated a whole bunch of aurors, has an entire lifetime of magical experience. He has superb organizational skills, and motivates the order as well as Wizardom. By losing him the Order and anti Voldemort forces have lost a lot. Ushit_K. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 14:38:37 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <430934D7.9010008@telus.net> Message-ID: <20050822143837.82650.qmail@web60411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138393 --- Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > Larry now: > > Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a > life > > unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging > or > > destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I > cannot > > understand how we can have gotten to know > Dumbledore > > as we have and believe for a second that he would > > sacrifice a human soul for any reason. Let alone > for > > so craven a thing as the placement of a spy. > Larry > > Kathy writes: > I believe that it is more to him than just > placing a spy. I think it > is his last gamble to set things up for the final > conflict. Dumbledore's > only goal is finishing Voldemort. For that, he is > willing to risk > everything. > KJ Larry now: "Last gamble..." Wow is that different, or for that matter more justifiable than the placing of a spy? "Risk everything..." Seems a euphamism for do anything. See posts138237 and 138321. Dumbledore is not a Dark Lord, rolling the dice with the souls of others. > > Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no > one, > > there is no inner circle. Voldemort is the only > chess > > master here, it is his utterly ruthless > willingness to > > sacrifice any one or anything to get what he wants > > that marks him as the Dark Lord. For Dumbledore to > > sacrifice a soul, any soul, would be to have him > use > > the means of the enemy, putting him on the road to > > becoming the enemy. > Larry > > Kathy writes: > > While you are probably correct in your > estimation, there are a few > items I would like to discuss. Do we really "know" > Dumbledore? > Dumbledore speaks of a plan involving Harry > and feels intense > sorrow about risking Harry's life and alternatively > risking the lives of > hundreds or thousands of others.He has forced > himself to stop protecting > Harry from his "destiny", and is pushing the master > plan forward. Larry now: Anyone of good conscience would feel guilt and sorrow by asking others to place themselves in danger. You seem below to be making a case that Dumbledore is not so "nice", what ever that means. But aren't his pangs of conscience proof of goodness? Voldemort feels no such thing for those he places in danger. What master plan? Read original post again, 138106, and see below. > Dumbledore has sent Lupin, who is not a strong > person > psychologically or apparently physically, from the > description of him, > to live with a pack of werewolves, where he must > change along with them, > without benefit of the Wolfsbane, possibly risking > the lives of > innocent people. Larry now: Maybe some can correct me here, but Lupin's physical weakness stems from his use of the potion. The other werewolf we have seen, Fenrir Greyback, does not seem lacking in vigor. Without the potion, I see no reason for Lupin being unqualified for the job. As for psychological weakness, I just don't see it. Indecision and an unwillingness to control others is not weakness. > Dumbledore sent Snape back to Voldemort, > expecting that he might > have a hard time convincing Voldemort that he had > been loyal all those > years. Dumbledore, at least, had the decency to look > worried when he did it. > Dumbledore had no problem in allowing Hagrid > to be sent to Azkaban > for a short sabbatical. Larry now: Snape never claimed to be loyal to Voldemort during the entire term of Voldemort's bodiless existence. Snape tells Bellatrix he thought Voldemort finished, HBP Am. ed. P. 26. He, along with other DE's never tried to find Voldemort, thought briefly that Harry was a standard they could rally around, etc. None of this speaks of an undying loyalty. In any case, Dumbledore knew of the various explainations Snape would give Voldemort, and knew them to be reasonable, hence the risk to Snape was also reasonable. Dumbledore could not overrule the MoM, and had no say in whether Hagred was sent to Azkaban. > Dumbledore is 150 years old. He has been > looking at the long-term > picture for a third of his life. He has already made > great changes to > his own life in his fight against Voldemort. He has > already sacrificed > much. I believe that Dumbledore *would* ask Snape to > make the sacrifice > of risking his soul, although I believe that JKR > described a > cold-blooded, deliberate killing was necessary to > damage the soul. > Obviously the risk has been minimized Larry now: Please re-read the original post, and see posts 138106, 138232, 138262, 138321. Dumbledore would never use the means of the enemy to defeat the enemy, I've seen nothing here to suggest an inkleing otherwise. . Dumbledore > would also be willing > to ask the supreme sacrifice of both Snape and > Harry. Larry now: Do you mean by supreme sacrifice the sacrifice merely of one's life, or one's very soul? A commander would expect the former as a matter of war, but only an unrepentantly evil, by any means necessary Voldemort type would accept the later. He has simply > avoided the guilt by making his sacrifice to the > cause first. Wily old > bird! Dumbledore doesn't trust anyone either. He was > always the only one > holding all the cards. He only shows the ones he > wants the others to > see. I see this as his biggest mistake. From OotP on > Dumbledore has been > changing from "peacetime" Dumbledore to "at war" > Dumbledore and I find > him not so nice and kind as before. > KJ Larry now: What you take for lack of trust is really evidence that there is no master plan. Dumbledore was merely fighting a holding action, buying time until Harry was ready to do what only Harry could do. There is not the slightest shred of evidence that Dumbledore was orchestrating some procession to final victory. In fact, the section of The Prephecy that implies Harry is the one how can defeat the Dark Lord is never contradicted by Dumbledore. Dumbledore never claims victory is inevitable: just because Harry can defeat the Dark Lord doesn't mean he will. I have no sense that Dumbledore planned a series of enveloping moves, leading to inevitable check mate. He was training his warrior, and when that training was complete would send him out to combat and hope for the best. HBP Am. ed. P.197-198: "Sir," said Harry tentativly, "does what you're going to tell me have anything to do with the prophecy? Will it help me...survive?" "It has a very great deal to do with the prophecy," said Dumbledore, as casually as if Harry had asked him about the next day's weather, "and I certainly hope that it will help you to survive." Larry ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From kjones at telus.net Mon Aug 22 14:38:55 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:38:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: <002b01c5a71c$9c268460$3562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <002b01c5a71c$9c268460$3562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <4309E37F.8010704@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138394 Cathy Drolet wrote: > CathyD: > "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you > the night he gave you that scar. *Not something he intended to do*, I'm > sure --" The "It certainly seems so" is indicating response to what he > already said. The bit of himself being some of his powers not a piece > of his soul. Certainly Dumbledore would have querried this to bits > before he decided on Nagini being the 6th Horcrux? The soul has to be > split by murder to make a Horcrux, the 'significant' murder that night > was going to be Harry's to make the final Horcrux. LV's soul wasn't > split because he didn't kill Harry. Yes, he'd already killed Lily and > James but saying that LV made Harry into a Horcrux with their death(s) > and then was going to kill him, just doesn't work, IMO. CathyD Kathy writes: In OotP Dumbledore admitted to Harry that he had not told him the whole truth, and really, still hasn't. Any time Dumbledore says "It certainly seems so" should cause alarm bells to go off. I think,too, that a horcrux does not need to be made immediately following a death. Once a death has occurred, the split is made, and it seems to me that the spell-casting to encase the soul piece separately can be done any time. He had no intention to make Harry a horcrux. He intended to kill him. No spell was cast to encase the spell in Harry, so he might not be an actual horcrux, but I beleive that the force of the rebound spell forced one of the split pieces into Harry. KJ > CathyD > If Harry is a Horcrux, why is Voldemort so intent on having him dead? He > wanted Quirrell to kill Harry to acquire the Philosopher's Stone. > Diary!Riddle wanted Harry dead. GoF's graveyard scene speaks for > itself. LV possessing Harry in the Atrium at the MoM so that Dumbledore > would kill Harry in an attempt to kill LV, is also, LV wanting Harry > dead. CathyD Kathy writes: I don't think that Voldemort has any idea what happened. Everything that occurred at Godric's Hollow was unique. He has no logical basis on which to hazard a guess. All he has is the prophesy part that says Harry has the power to vanquish him. He wants him dead for this reason. KJ CathyD > LV wouldn't want Harry dead if he is a Horcrux...that would be > destroying himself and making himself that much more vulnerable, IMO, > not stronger. If, in killing Harry, LV recovered the piece of his soul > that was inside a Horcrux!Harry, he would still be "a mortal man with a > maimed and diminished soul." LV knows that if he recovers those pieces > of soul (if they can be recovered) he will no longer be 'immortal'...he > doesn't want that, he's too afraid of death. CathyD Kathy writes: I suspect that even if Voldemort figures out that one of his pieces of soul went into Harry, he is still going to want him dead and out of his way. He knows that he has several other horcruxes available to protect his immortality. Leaving Harry alive would be too much of a risk. KJ From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 22 14:39:54 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:39:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ushit_k" wrote: > Ushit_K > But I believe that neither Harry nor Hermione realize that Snape is > under UV. How can they know that? > colebiancardi: Harry found out about the UV during the Christmas Party. He followed Snape & Malfoy to the empty classroom & listened in on it. Harry asked Ron about the UV's - remember? And Ron told him about Fred&George almost trying one on him....Oh yeah, Harry is very much aware that Snape has an Unbreakable Vow with the Malfoy's. And since Harry is, Ron & Hermoine are aware of it also. > > Jazmyn: > > the insight to realize that Snape is more valuable to the Order as a > spy > > close to Voldemort then Dumbledore is as an old man with a crippled > hand > > and waning powers... > > > Ushit_K > Even an old and waning Dumbledore is a powerful asset. He stood up to > Voldemort, defeated a whole bunch of aurors, has an entire lifetime of > magical experience. He has superb organizational skills, and motivates > the order as well as Wizardom. By losing him the Order and anti > Voldemort forces have lost a lot. yes, they have. No one is disputing that. However, Dumbledore wasn't going to live forever. Are you thinking that no one else can lead the OotP? I don't think Snape will lead the OotP and I don't think anyone is stating that. I do think the Snape's asset of being a spy is much more important at this time - he is the only one in the Order that can get *close* to Voldemort(or as close as LV will let anyone). The battle is coming to a climax and all the insights that Snape can gather and any havoc he can create in the DE's lair will be extremely important. colebiancardi From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 22 14:42:37 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:42:37 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138396 Lupinlore: > Personally I have a tendency to try and "correct" plot holes and > thematic inconsistency, or at least criticize them. I am beginning > to believe, however, that the second position is the one that will be > proven correct. Sienna makes a marvelous and telling point in her > early comments about Voldemort. We have had an emphasis on the > importance of choice and JKR's statements about how no one is born > evil. But in Voldemort we have a character who seems, from all > evidence and appearances, to be genetically evil, a corrupt product > of a degenerate and inbred family. Furthermore Dumbledore, the very character who is associated with statements about the power of choice and the importance of trust, seems to relate to him from the very first as a dangerous and deeply flawed child, a child who is in some way corrupt in his very essence. In other words, we have a powerful and glaring contradiction woven into the basic fabric of the narrative, in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main villain is a monster from birth, the son of a poisoned bloodline. Pippin: The contradiction is not in the narrative, but in the interpretation people have put on it. People have taken Dumbledore's words to mean, "we are what we choose to be." I guess it bears repeating that Dumbledore never said "Our choices make us what we are." He said, speaking of Harry's choice not to be in Slytherin, that it "makes you *very different* from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (emphasis in the text) Harry's choice makes him "very different" from Riddle in Dumbledore's eyes -- but it is never stated anywhere that Dumbledore or JKR thinks choice is the *cause* of the differences. Harry is worried, at this point in the narrative, about whether he can trust himself -- everyone seemed so willing to believe that he was the Heir of Slytherin, and Riddle noted the likenesses between them. Harry wants to know whether the similarities between him and Riddle mean that he is tainted. Dumbledore assures him that his choices show that he is not. The emphasis is on examining people's choices in order to determine who can be trusted, not on the idea that we are solely what we choose to be. Indeed, if the latter were true, then looking at the choices people have made in the past would be a very poor way to decide whether to trust them, because they could easily choose differently next time. How people become evil is a separate issue. To say that Voldemort was not born evil does not say that his miserable heritage and upbringing did nothing to influence the choices he made. Obviously they did, but it is by the choices Riddle made that we are to know this, not by his heritage and upbringing alone. Merope and Morfin had the same degenerate bloodline, even more desperate poverty and lovelessness to contend with, but by their choices, we know they were not murderers. Pippin From nawyecka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 14:52:13 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050822145213.14533.qmail@web60421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138397 --- whizbang wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lawrence > Carlin > wrote: > > > Remember, it is our choices that makes us who we > are. > > And if we choose to act as the Dark Lord, we will > > become as the Dark Lord. A choice Dumbledore would > > never make, and a path he would never follow. > > > > Larry > > > I would argue that our choices reveal who we really > are. They don't > make us, they show us. This is the biblical > concept of "You will > know them by their fruits." So Dumbledore's or > anyone else's, > character is not shaped by his choices. Rather, his > choices are > dictated by his character. Larry now: Would you have one's basic nature, or character as deterministic? Do you suggest that a person with a powerful predilection for addiction is incapable of overcoming that addiction? That a person of the most reprehensible character cannot literally "see the Light" and choose to repent? You mention the bible, what does the bible say of the penitent? If choice cannot be made to overcome character, there would not exist a single penitent. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From EBeth0000 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 14:53:52 2005 From: EBeth0000 at hotmail.com (ebeth0000000000) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:53:52 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts ongoing staffing problems Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138398 I have been wondering about next year's staffing at Hogwarts. 1. Next year, we can fairly safely assume "Professor" Snape will not be returning to his post as DAD. We now know the position is cursed, with no one able to hold the job for more than one year. So who will be next year's DAD teacher? 2. Will Slughorn stay on as Potions master next year? If he leaves, will he succumb to the Death Eaters/LV as he feared? 3. With McGonagall as headmaster, will she continue to serve as Gryffindor's head of house? 4. After Trelawney's repeated threats to leave Hogwarts, will she make good on her threats and become vulnerable to Death Eater/LV attacks, capture, and memory charms? Will the discovery of the "true" prophecy actually mean anything for LV? Will Firenze continue teaching? 5. Will we ever learn anything about Professor Sinistra? Assuming (without much canon in support of it) that Harry goes back to Hogwarts, or even if he doesn't but still needs to brew potions in the course of tracking down the Horcruxes, will he continue to use the HBP book to help him? He'll need to make excellent potions, even if the person he hates the most wrote the book. He'll have to go back and find it, first, which means he'll definitely have to go to Hogwarts, if only to pick it up. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 15:16:22 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Supposed contradictions Message-ID: <20050822151622.19737.qmail@web60421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138401 It may be that what appear to us as contradictions in canon are merely puzzles yet to be worked out. I've heard it said that Physics is nonsense as so much is unexpained. But with each new discovery we are closer to rendering that objection moot. All great writers leave mysteries to be explored and contradictions to be explained. Long after a great author has expired, new interpretations and other discoveries are made. If a text could be so easily understood, containing no further mysteries and contradictions, it would no longer reward rereading and would soon become dead. I choose to give JKR the benefit of the doubt, seeing her as the great author she is, enjoying the books for years to come, puzzling things out our conversations here. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 15:21:49 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:21:49 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138402 CathyD wrote: If Harry is a Horcrux, why is Voldemort so intent on having him dead? He wanted Quirrell to kill Harry to acquire the Philosopher's Stone. Diary!Riddle wanted Harry dead. GoF's graveyard scene speaks for itself. LV possessing Harry in the Atrium at the MoM so that Dumbledore would kill Harry in an attempt to kill LV, is also, LV wanting Harry dead. Dumbledore realized then that it wasn't his own destruction LV was after, but Harry's. LV wouldn't want Harry dead if he is a Horcrux...that would be destroying himself and making himself that much more vulnerable, IMO, not stronger. If, in killing Harry, LV recovered the piece of his soul that was inside a Horcrux!Harry, he would still be "a mortal man with a maimed and diminished soul." LV knows that if he recovers those pieces of soul (if they can be recovered) he will no longer be 'immortal'...he doesn't want that, he's too afraid of death. vmonte: Because Voldemort does not know that Harry is a horcrux. Something happened during GH that caused a "bit" of Voldemort to enter Harry-- we know this. (If you can believe that talents are transferable, then you must agree that a soul piece is also transferable, since it's part of canon, no?) So, either Lily's sacrifice caused this to happen, or someone else was at GH and caused it--maybe even accidentally. Let's say someone came with Voldemort. Lily's sacrifice turns Voldemort into Vapormort. This other person performs a ritual to absorb Voldemort's power but it backfires and goes into Harry. The house explodes. This person cannot kill Harry without also giving up what he wants. Maybe Snape doesn't yet know how to remove it? (I posted this theory on another site and a fan mentioned that perhaps Harry was right about the occlumeny lessons--that Snape was trying to make him weaker. Maybe Snape was trying to figure a way to get to Harry's powers.) See where I'm going? Anyway, Voldemort may now actually suspect what Harry is, hence his order to the DEs to not kill Harry. Notice how the target in this book was Dumbledore and not Harry? Is it too hard to believe that Snape told Voldemort, over the summer, that he was treating Dumbledore for a curse related injury from a ring that had a snake on it? A ring that Dumbledore didn't hide but left sitting in plain view in his office. Vivian From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 22 14:40:31 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:40:31 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138403 > Valky said: Snape does not *know* Harry is *the* "One" full stop. He > only knows "Harry is the one with the power" because he has only heard > half the prophecy. He could still conclude that the power is the > answer, and not the boy. Snape is into "power" like that, being a > Slytherin and all. > I would like to know of the canon that supports this statement. Because, in OoTP I remember the prophecy as being "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him,born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal,but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." And then Dumbledore says very clearly (canon here) "...that Voldemort's information of the prophecy was incomplete.. ...He heard only the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you and marking you as his equal. So Voldemort naver knew that there might be danger in attacking you, that it might be wise to wait, to learn more. He did not know that you would have *power the Dark Lord knows not*-" Now, That clearly shows that Snape *could not* have heard the part about Harry having a power the Dark Lord does not.Because 1 - It came after the bit about "marking him as his equal* which DD says Voldy did not know of, and 2- Snape could not warn Voldemort that he might risk transferring certain power to Harry since he Did Not Know himself!!!!!!!!!! So all this speculation of Snape *studying* Harry could only take place if and only if, Dumbledore had told him the whole prophecy. And we know for sure that he did not know because DD told Harry that the only people who knew the full contents of the prophecy were standing in the broomshed. Of course, DD could have told Snape later on, but I highly doubt this. It was too late in the game to let Snape in on it. Why would DD tell Snape the full prophecy sixteen years after it was made? Especially when Voldy could have Legilimensed it out of him if Snape got caught? Elyse From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 14:57:41 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:57:41 -0000 Subject: There's no comparing Tom and Harry (was Levels and contradictions in JKR's...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138404 A little answer to Rachel, and then on to Ceridwen. Rachel wrote, in message 138387: "I think it is far worse to be emotionally abused by your family, people who SHOULD love you, but don't." Del replies: I disagree. I think it is much better to know that you *should* be loved, even if you're not, than to not even know what love is. Harry at least knew what love felt like, and what it looked like, and he unconsciously knew that the way the Dursleys treated him wasn't normal, that he deserved better. He dreamed of someone taking him away, someone who would love him. Tom, OTOH, didn't even know what love was, he didn't know he was supposed to be loved, and as a consequence he didn't have any yearning for love. His capacities to feel and give love were atrophied to the point of non-existence by circumstances *independent of his will*. I guess that he was indeed the one who *hurt* less as a child (Harry's yearning for love must have been deeply painful), but he was nonetheless the one who was most damaged by his circumstances. Harry can find healing for his abusive past, with the help of loving friends and family, but Tom could never have healed the damage that had been done to him. Rachel wrote: "If genetics/bad blood were the only reason for Riddle's demise, then why doesn't the same argument hold for Sirius Black? He was raised by a "dark" family-yet he turns out different." Del replies: The Blacks were dark, sure, but they don't seem to have been as badly deranged as the Gaunts. Sure they had their quirks, like this House-Elf heads on the wall matter. But they still seemed to have been correctly functioning overall. IOW, there's no sign of big genetic defects in them, unlike what we can see in the Gaunts. Moreover, I don't think any case can be made for Sirius having been abused by his family like Merope was. So I don't think Sirius is a foil for Tom (I think he's rather a foil for Draco). --- Ceridwen wrote: "First, no one's mentioned that children have no choice about their lives. At least, not their physical existence, and not their upbringing. This is most clearly illustrated in the birth situation of both boys. Tom didn't choose for his mother to die, any more than Harry chose to be cared for, for fifteen months. Neither had a frame of reference for a 'correct' upbringing. They had no knowledge." Del replies: Furthermore, this lack of knowledge doesn't suddenly disappear as they grow up. Their future experiences and interactions are all going to be tainted by their previous knowledge or lack thereof. For example, as you mentioned later in your post, Harry knew love as a baby, so later in his life he's going to jump on every real opportunity to get that love again. But Tom never knew love, so even if Molly had later smothered him with love, even if the Weasleys had taken him in their family as they did Harry, even if Tom had found a father figure, I don't think he would have seized those opportunities, because they wouldn't *mean* anything to him. They wouldn't resonate with some deep-seated desire, like they did for Harry. His previous experiences, his previous knowledge, would not have prepared him in any way to treasure those opportunities, to seize them and use them to change his life. Ceridwen wrote: "The 'kids' in the last two groups all, or most, seem to be thankful they didn't have the depridations of the Great Depression to live through like their friends at school did. An orphanage is a charity case, and there are donations which make certain unpleasantries less of an issue. I don't know about TR's orphanage. The matron seemed to be a bit of a boozer, which may have had an impact not only on the children, but on the staff. And at that time, many illegitimate kids were sent to orphanages, and illigitimacy carried a heavy stigma with it as well. Did they think Tom was illegitimate? Could this have colored the way they thought of him?" Del replies: Very interesting points! About the Great Depression: I'm not a historian, but I always got the feeling that it affected people in Europe less than it did people in the States. I could be very wrong, though. But if I'm right, then the "positive" consequence of being raised in an orphanage that you mentioned would not have existed for Tom. About illegitimacy: I don't know about the UK, but I have known illegitimate people who grew up in various other parts of Europe around that time or even later, and it's true that they lived under a very heavy stigma. If Tom was thought to be illegitimate, then this might have had a very big negative influence on his life indeed. However, since he was named after his father, we can't be sure that he was thought to be illegitimate. Maybe the people at the orphanage concluded that Merope was a widow? Ceridwen wrote: "Still, with a variety of caregivers at the home, Tom was exposed to many different types of people who react in different ways. He was able to see good, bad, irresponsible, and so on. And orphans are not isolated from the general public. They attend school in the community, and after a certain age, can get jobs. As for church, my mother's orphanage brought in ministers from various denominations, and had a rabbi once a year. If Tom's orphanage is run by a charity organization, they probably were under a specific denomination, and the kids would have attended services. So he would have been instructed in right from wrong, at least on Saturdays/Sundays. As a child gets older, and is exposed to different people and ideas, they become more able to choose. I do think nature plays a part in things, and in the case of mental disorders (as well as physical handicaps) can override upbringing, *to an extent*. However, a person with some sort of inborn need to hurt others, can learn to redirect. Tom chose not to. Maybe because the older kids who mentored him were cruel themselves (a failure of the staff to rescue him). Still, he saw different people, and knew there were other ways. As an adult, he became culpable for his own actions, and could have consciously chosen to reform himself, or at least remove himself from negative stimuli." Del replies: You make lots of very good points. Unfortunately, I think all these points were possibly countered by one simple thing: Tom had no REASON to reform himself. Yes he was taught right from wrong, but he never *believed* in those principles, I think. Remember what he taught Quirrell (paraphrase): there's no right or wrong, there's only power and those too weak to use it. I think this is what he *always* believed. And as much as I love DD, I have to deplore the way he interacted with Tom the first time they met. DD *forced* Tom to give his trophies back, and he threatened him with punishment if he put a toe out of line again. IOW, he showed Tom that in the WW, just as in the MW, it's *power* that determines what one can do or not, not love, not morality, just power and who wields it. Ceridwen wrote: "IMO, Tom's inborn nature from the Gaunts (can't say what he got from the Riddles, all we know is they were rich) could have been channeled by a competent upbringing. He did have another lineage which could have been tapped. Harry's early loving upbringing could have been quelched by cruelty. It would have been easy for him to become jealous, then bitter. They both began to make choices as they were exposed to people and ideas. Tom consistently made the 'easy' choices, to terrorize and browbeat; Harry searched for love." Del replies: I don't think it was a matter of easy choice vs right choice. I think it was just a matter of looking for what appealed to them. Harry, who had been so loved as a baby and who was constantly browbeaten, looked for love and acceptance. Tom, who never knew love and who probably got his strongest bits of pleasure from dominating others and getting his way, looked for power. There's also the matter of what their greatest fears are. Harry, who grew up abused and dominated, was never afraid of being beaten and to some extent of dying. What he is very much afraid of, is of losing those he loves. He'll risk his life to save his loved ones, without hesitating one second. OTOH, Tom is mortally (pun intended) afraid of death. He will do anything to prevent his own death. This includes preventing other people from hurting him, making sure that nobody is going to threaten him, and developing power over life and death and other people. Those two kids might look similar on the surface, but once you look under the surface, they have almost *nothing* in common. They *never* had anything in common. Their formative experiences were different, the biggest difference being that Harry knows love, while Tom never did. Their desires, their goals, their ways of achieving pleasure and contentment, were always totally different. And their fears never had nothing in common. Those two boys were never at the same crossroads in life, they never had similar choices. Note: my view of Angry!Harry in OoP is that Harry was being heavily influenced by LV's outlook on life. Consequently, I find it very interesting to see Harry sometimes finding a wicked pleasure in tormenting others and in exercising power over others. I think that this is *exactly* what LV's life has always been like: no warm feelings coming from having friends or from interacting positively with other human beings, just a savage, vindictive pleasure at dominating others and at satisfying his raw, animal-like instincts and desires, the biggest of them being of course the preservation instinct. JMO, of course, Del From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 15:29:11 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:29:11 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (but maybe not 100%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138405 Eggplant wrote: > the only hope Snape lovers have is if Dumbledore is not really dead and the entire climax of book 6 was all just a colossal hoax or practical joke Carol responds: Actually, we have another, more interesting hope: that Snape will feel genuine remorse and redeem himself before he dies. That would fit with the themes of Love and Choice much better than an angry Harry killing an evil Snape in a fit of vengeance and becoming evil himself in the process. And let's think what would have happened if Snape, in the presence of four Death Eaters and bound by his Unbreakable Vow (which, admittedly, was a foolish mistake) had refused to kill Dumbledore or attempted to help the very ill and possibly dying Dumbledore. Snape didn't have any antidotes with him to administer, but how about a nonverbal Renervate? But that wouldn't have worked. Even if the Death Eaters didn't realize what he was doing and kill him, the vow would have done it. All the choice to die would have accomplished would be to show Harry (whom Snape must have known was present in his invisibility cloak because of the second broom) that Snape was on the good side. And, assuming that Snape had never killed before (which I think is plausible given Bellatrix's remarks about his "slithering out of action," HBP Am. ed. 35), he would have left his soul unsplit. The question is, was dying the right choice, as it seems to be, or the easy way out of his vow? If Snape still has to act as an agent of good with all the Order viewing him as an enemy and his soul split by the act of murder, that was no easy choice. But, yes. He could have chosen to die rather than kill Dumbledore. That was his only other option. Fine, you say. He deserved to die, and he should have died for Dumbledore as Sirius would have done. I'm not so sure that's true. Snape could not have saved Dumbledore, who would have been killed by the Death Eaters if both Draco and Snape had failed to "do the deed," and Draco would have been murdered on Voldemort's orders. So there would have been three corpses for Fenrir Grayback to maul. Once Dumbledore had died, Harry would either have had to witness the carnage in helpless horror or rush out rashly and recklessly as Sirius would have done, adding his own death to the total and depriving the WW of all hope of defeating Voldemort. Harry couldn't outduel Snape alone; he could hardly have outduelled four Death Eaters, including an unquestionably evil werewolf who would have loved to eat him. And then the Death Eaters would have rushed down the stairs overly the corpses of the nobly dead Snape and the heroically dead Harry, finished off the Order members, and wreaked havoc in the school. What happens instead is tragic for both Snape and Dumbledore but not catastrophic. Snape can't save Dumbledore from the DEs or himself from his vow but he does send Dumbledore's body from the tower so it can't be ravaged by Grayback, saves Draco as he has sworn to do, orders the DEs out of the school, keeps them from Crucioing Harry, and tells Harry not to let his emotions control him or use Dark Magic, advice Harry would do well to follow. The easy choice? It may seem so, but Snape must know that, for him, the consequences will be terrible. As for Dumbledore, he would have died in that scene no matter what. If Snape hadn't killed him and he hadn't died from the poison, the Death Eaters would have killed him. *That was their mission.* Snape kept the death toll to one and took the burden of Draco's sin and folly on himself. In a very unDumbledorean way, that's heroic, especially if he was loyal to Dumbledore and hated himself for what he had to do. It's a beautiful set up for redemption. I know you don't agree. You think Snape's a murderer and that's that. You think he's out for himself, and, anyway, he's mainly a plot device to get DD out of the way. Maybe that's true. But I think the other possibility, a complicated and tormented Snape trapped by his vow and making the best choice he could under terrible circumstances, should at least be considered. It's thematically much more profound, and for those who love Dumbledore, it will prove that he was right to trust Severus Snape. Carol, who believes in ESC! (Ever So Complicated) Snape From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Aug 22 15:46:40 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:46:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's treatment and pensieve /James v Snape In-Reply-To: <20050822121423.31074.qmail@web86201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005701c5a730$b1e3eae0$c13b79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 138406 Alla said: > > To me adult James was a hero, who defied Voldemort > and who died > > trying to save his wife and son. Irene replied: Lots of less than perfect men would protect their wife and child. Uncle Vernon in GoF comes to mind - he had all the reasons to believe that Weasleys are a bunch of murderous psychos, yet he is ready to protect Petunia and Dudley with his life. Does that make him an OK guy, then? I'm not saying that James didn't do some heroic things in the first war, it might well be that he was a real hero. But we haven't seen anything yet. Irene Sherry now: But we have the evidence of Dumbledore and the reactions of the WW to the deaths of James and Lily and the ways in which the WW speaks of James with respect. The prophecy implies that James and Lily defied Voldemort three times. The impression given by the text, any time someone mentions the Potters is full of respect and love and admiration. I doubt that any of us think we are still the same obnoxious brats we were as teenagers, so I don't have a problem believing James could have matured and become quite an extraordinary man. If it turns out that the only great one of that couple was Lily, I'd be sorely disappointed. i just can't hold the actions of school boys against the men they become. Not even Snape. My dislike of Snape has never had anything to do with what he did at school. I think we have a lot of canon, through the eyes of other characters, to support the idea that James became quite an heroic man. I'd sure like to see more of that, in the next book. sherry] From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Aug 22 15:57:05 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:57:05 -0000 Subject: Spinners End and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138407 --- "KathyO" wrote: >> What if Dumbledore had taken Snape's place for some >> reason, and ended up taking an Unbreakable Vow to kill >> himself...then you would see results immediately...and >> the end result could be a blackened wand hand. --- "Ellen" wrote: > What struck me about your observation is that we keep > hearing Dumbledore saying he "trusts Severus completely" > and offers no explanation. What if the explanation is > that Severus had made an UV with Dumbledore to be in D's > service and offer his protection to D? > > Then, when Snape makes an UV in Chapter 2 ... I wonder if > D's whithered hand is evidence that an UV CAN be broken > -- or rather destroyed -- if the vow maker makes an > opposite vow with another person, in this case Narcissa? I'm not sure these theories hold up, because both would require that Dumbledore's injured hand occurs at the time of or after the Unbreakable Vow at Spinner's End. But Snape appears to be referring to that injury earlier in the Spinner's end scene, when he tells the sisters "I am pleased to say, however, that Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were." -- Matt From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 16:07:50 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:07:50 -0000 Subject: Genius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138408 "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > Shakespeare, Mozart, Dickens, Michaelangelo. > These people are geniuses. Jo is just very, > very good. With the exception of Michelangelo none of these people were considered a genius in their day, Dickens was enormously popular but thought of as a hack by the literary elite and Shakespeare wrote his sonnets to try to gain some respectability, his plays made him a ton of money but it was like a man today who had written a very successful sitcom. Eggplant From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 22 16:25:24 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:25:24 -0000 Subject: Genius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138409 Eggplant wrote: With the exception of Michelangelo none of these people were considered a genius in their day, Dickens was enormously popular but thought of as a hack by the literary elite and Shakespeare wrote his sonnets to try to gain some respectability, his plays made him a ton of money but it was like a man today who had written a very successful sitcom. That's far too glib. Dickens was never regarded as a hack in his own day. Ben Jonson described Shakespeare as being "not for an age but for all time" I'd hesitate to say that about JKR, much as I admire her. I'd agree with an earlier poster who described her as a phenomenon though. From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Mon Aug 22 16:51:25 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (profuloth) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:51:25 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts ongoing staffing problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138410 ebeth0000000000 wrote: > I have been wondering about next year's staffing at Hogwarts. > So who will be next year's DAD teacher? HBP was the first book where we got a DADA professor that we knew before we opened the book. I don't see us knowing the next DADA professor...unless of course it is a member of the Order of the Phoenix.... maybe Dung will sober up enough to teach them a thing or two ;) > 2. Will Slughorn stay on as Potions master next year? I believe Sluggy will stick around if the school stays open. Otherwise we need three new teachers (see below). > 3. With McGonagall as headmaster, will she continue to serve as > Gryffindor's head of house? Hagrid will be the new Gryffindor head of house. Headmistress will be more than enough work for Minerva...which means we will need a new transfiguration teacher too...remember that Dumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher back in Tom Riddle's days in school (CoS). > 4. After Trelawney's repeated threats to leave Hogwarts, will she > make good on her threats and become vulnerable to Death Eater/LV > attacks, capture, and memory charms? Will the discovery of the > "true" > prophecy actually mean anything for LV? Will Firenze continue > teaching? Reading my tea leaves and noting the position of Mars with respect to Uranus...I would say both will stay as it is unsafe for either to return to the world at large. > 5. Will we ever learn anything about Professor Sinistra? I doubt it...so far I think we've seen her sitted at the staff table and dancing with Moody(?)...but I doubt we'll see her in action. She has a name that sounds sinister enough to pull her in to the storyline...but let's face it Hooch and Pince have had more character development than Sinistra. > Assuming (without much canon in support of it) that Harry goes back > to Hogwarts Maybe Harry will use Hogwarts as his base of operation and skive off classes to find the remaining horcruxes. I can see the remaining DA members being used to help him reseach (about one-third to half of the DA have left Hogwarts). Harry will likely pick up the HBP's book for potions help, but will stay away from the jinks and hexes written in the margins. Jason From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Mon Aug 22 17:02:04 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (profuloth) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:02:04 -0000 Subject: Genius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138411 rochesteruponmedway said: > I'd hesitate to say that about JKR, much as I admire her. > I'd agree with an earlier poster who described her as a phenomenon > though. Let's see...about 20,000 adults on this list write some 100 posts per day about her books (speculating theories, compairing with other literary greats, puzzling out clues and debating all manner of tangential material). Let's not for get the hundreds of thousands of kids and adults who also read these books. I think it is more than a phenomenon...there is a strong cult following...it is borderline literary genius. I'll reserve final judgement until Harry Potter and the Temple of Doom (or whatever it will be called) comes out in a few years. If Jo can end this series better than George Lucas ended the Star Wars series, I'll call her a genius! (and seeing how it would be hard to do a worse job than Lucas did...I might as well start calling her a genius now). Jason From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 22 06:04:42 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:04:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: question References: Message-ID: <43096AFA.00000B.02040@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 138412 -------Original Message------- --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mworth1019" wrote: > What does OFH!ESG!DD'sMan!Snape mean, I don't understand the > initials... sorry if it is obvious. > > MWorth1019 OFH - out for himself ESG - ever so good ESE - ever so evil DD's man - dumbledore's man TW - top wizard It took me a long time to figure out ESE!Snape, so don't feel bad colebiancardi Thank you, MWorth1019, for asking and thank you, colebiancardi, for answering. I've been wondering the same thing but was too embarrassed to ask. Donna SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonyaminton at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 17:57:20 2005 From: tonyaminton at gmail.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Genius? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138413 Shakespeare, Mozart, Dickens, Michaelangelo. > These people are geniuses. Jo is just very, > very good. Tonya Here: My opinion is that Jo is a genius. She has single handed gotten the world to read. That is an amazing feat when video games and TV are sooo alluring to everyone not just kids but adults. Look at us over 11,000 people on a list about HP would we all be here and making new friends if it hadn't been for Jo?? I think she is a genius. I also agree Shakespeare, Mozart, Dickens, Michelangelo are geniuses. Tonya Minton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 18:03:57 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:03:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: <1124317197.2343.56536.m27@yahoogroups.com> References: <1124317197.2343.56536.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd0508221103160777e6@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138414 Eggplant writes: > So Snape read her mind and knew she would ask him to make a > Unbreakable Vow in a few minutes, so he quickly told Dumbledore who > said "Oh goody goody gumdrop, just make sure you actually make that > Unbreakable Vow to kill me Severus, it will help our side big time if > our most powerful wizard dies". > > Ah, the contortions Snape lovers go through to maintain their > preconceptions despite the new book is a sight to behold. However I > think it is often wise to alter your views when you receive new > information, like the fact that Snape murdered Dumbledore. And yet > we're still debating if he's evil! ================================ And yet one could say the same about the Snape detractors: how close-minded they can be despite the fact that there is as much evidence to back Side-of-the-Order!Snape as there is to back their preconceived notion of ESE!Snape. Personally, I don't believe Snape knew that Narcissa would ask for an Unbreakable Vow -- I think he was trapped into it. Turn her down, and he arouses DE suspicion that he's on Dumbledore's side. Acquiesce, and he averts it completely. That brings us to the likelihood of Snape having to kill Dumbledore. As Dumbledore knew of Draco's plan, Snape obviously told him, and was working with him concerning the outcome. (HBP p. 588: "Professor Snape has been keeping watch on you on my order -- ") Were Snape on Voldemort's side, there would've been no need to tell Dumbledore of Draco's mission, nor to collaborate with Dumbledore on it in any way. One can only speculate on Dumbledore's desire after that: a. having taught Harry about horcruxes and shown him the need for their destruction before confronting Voldemort, Harry is able to continue his own mission; b. seeing the conflict in Draco and knowing that Draco is unable to carry out his mission, Dumbledore obviously believes Draco can be turned against Voldemort, possibly bringing Narcissa and eventually Lucius with him; c. not being afraid of death, knowing it's the "next great adventure," Dumbledore would prefer that Snape remain undercover within the DEs than blow his cover to save him. There is enough evidence on both sides of the argument to sway most, I believe, and we all make our choices on which side of the fence we'll allow that wind to blow us. At present, my toes are firmly planted in the Side-of-the-Order!Snape side -- but I can certainly see the other side of the argument, too. Lisa (SassyMomOfThree) From namiepark at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 17:55:06 2005 From: namiepark at yahoo.com (NamiePark) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:55:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's master plan/passing the torch In-Reply-To: <20050820225753.91391.qmail@web60413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138415 Lawrence Carlin wrote: >> There is no evidence of any torch passing, or even > that there is a torch to pass. The whole quote reads, > HBP Am. ed. P. 578 "I am not worried, Harry," said > Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the > freezing water, "I am with you." > How could this be? Well, Harry shows absolutely no > signs of being the wand-waving or spell casting phenom > that Dumbledore is. And he shows no signs that he will > become this powerful in the conventional sense. I'm really glad that someone brought this up because it's been on my mind for some time now. At the beginning of HBP (at least in the UK edition), when Harry and DD leave the Dursleys, DD tells Harry not to worry because he is with DD. (paraphrasing, don't have the book in front of me) and towards the end of the book, when Harry goes back to his dorm to get his invisibility cloak and quickly tells Ron and Hermione that he's going to look for a horcrux with DD, he tells them not to worry because he will be with DD. But by the time they are leaving the cave, DD says what's quoted above, about not being worried because he is with Harry. I was really puzzled by that. While I assumed that it did imply some sort of torch passing, like Lawrence Carlin, I didn't see any evidence that Harry had become the stronger wizard, etc. This is total speculation but I wonder if Harry has always been unwittingly, the most powerful wizard but he has not (and still does not) completely know how to use his powers and that the only visible transition is that Harry is now mentally ready to hunt down Voldemort. I really don't have a strong opinion on this, though, and would really appreciate hearing other thoughts on the subject. Thanks, Namie From Sherry at PebTech.net Mon Aug 22 15:59:52 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:59:52 -0000 Subject: The location of Ravenclaw Dorms/Secret Passages on Marauder Map Was: Re: question In-Reply-To: <9epf4u+jv4s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138416 Lily wrote: > Does anyone know where the Ravenclaw dorms are? And what are the > secret passageways on the Marauder's Map? They're in the third book, > but I don't own a copy of it. If someone could please answer me, > I'd be forever grateful. The Ravenclaw dorms and common room are in Ravenclaw Tower (a counterpart to Gryffindor, which also occupies a tower). Ravenclaw Tower is on the west side of the Hogwarts castle. This actually appears in (the 5th book, chapter 10), according to the HP-Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/castle/hogwarts_inside.html When Fred and George give the Marauder's Map to Harry, it is described as showing "a set of passages he had never encountered," some of them leading into Hogsmeade. Fred says "There are seven in all," apparently meaning "seven passages that lead to Hogsmeade": * four known to Filch * one opening behind a mirror on the 4th floor of Hogwarts, which is now caved in * one with the entrance beneath the Whomping Willow, which leads to the Shrieking Shack (ch. 17) * one from the 3rd floor of Hogwarts to the cellar of Honeydukes sweet shop in Hogsmeade. These are "many" of the passages on the map, so there are apparently other secret passages within the school. (ch. 10) The HP Lexicon describes the map at http://www.hp-lexicon.org/atlas/hogwarts/atlas-h-m-map2.html Some of the information about the map here is different from what I found in my quick reference to PoA, so it probably includes additional secrets that Harry learned later on. At this point, some aspects of the map are still left open, to be disclosed (or speculated about) later. Amontillada From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Aug 22 15:32:23 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:32:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <20050822145213.14533.qmail@web60421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138417 > Larry now: > > Would you have one's basic nature, or character as > deterministic? Do you suggest that a person with a > powerful predilection for addiction is incapable of > overcoming that addiction? That a person of the most > reprehensible character cannot literally "see the > Light" and choose to repent? You mention the bible, > what does the bible say of the penitent? If choice > cannot be made to overcome character, there would not > exist a single penitent. > Well, one way around that is a belief in predestination. Not popular these days, I know, and I don't believe in it myself, but plenty of people have believed it over the centuries. More to the point of JKR's story, just because character is basic doesn't mean it's simple. It's entirely possible for someone's actions and choices to be determined by character but have character be so complicated and internally divided that actions and choices are often contradictory and seemingly inexplicable. This may, perhaps, be where she is going with Snape. I don't know, but it is a possibility. Also, even if you believe in character as a prime determinent, external stimuli play a role. If you are by character an apple thief but never run across an apple in your daily life you probably won't steal any apples. On the other hand, if you work in an apple pie factory, you will probably turn out to be a criminal (even if a petty one). Similarly if Snape had a job where he worked by himself all day long the abusive and short-tempered side of his character might never have come out. But putting him in front of a classroom was asking for disaster. Lupinlore From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 05:03:59 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape Detractors Unsophisticated. In-Reply-To: <1124317197.2343.56536.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050822050359.5268.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138418 Virginia now: I was a Snape defender before HBP. I saw him like a really interesting character with many layers, even after spinner's end, I thought it would have to be a good reason for Snape's behavior, but after he murdered my most beloved character, I became a Snape detractor. IMO whatever the reason Snape did what he did and even if Dumbledore is not death (I wish but dont think so), Snape did a horrible thing and has to be punished for that I also believe that It will be some kind of redemption for Snape, but that wont make him GOOD, he, as the rest of the HP characters, is not all black or white. IMHO. Lynda says: First of all, I'm posting after a very long two weeks which culminated yesterday in the theft of my purse and a call from my closest friend telling me that her father who is also a friend had a massive stroke yesterday, so my apologies ahead of time if this post seems a little disjointed at times. I've done a good bit of snipping as well. I've always realized that Snape is JKR's most complicated character. That's why there's so much discussion about him all the time. I've never really fallen into either the Good Snape or the ESE Snape camp, because he's too complex, with a lot of motivations goading him to do the things he does. I admit, though that he let's his bitterness and anger eat at him which leads him more toward the evil camp than the good. I'm still in my second reading of HBP (last week and the week before were not conducive to leisure time much less leisure reading) and will probably have better formed opinions of Snape's behaviors once I'm finished. Personally, I would love to see a redemption story for Snape, but at this point I'm not holding my breath. Lynda From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 22 18:35:08 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:35:08 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138419 Lupinlore: > > Furthermore Dumbledore, the very character who is associated > > with statements about the power of choice and the importance of > > trust, seems to relate to him from the very first as a dangerous > > and deeply flawed child, a child who is in some way corrupt in > > his very essence. In other words, we have a powerful and > > glaring contradiction woven into the basic fabric of the > > narrative, in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main > > villain is a monster from birth, the son of a poisoned bloodline. Jen: How Dumbledore viewed Tom after his first encounter is easy enough to guess because he told Harry his first impression: "Did I know that I had just met the most dangerous Dark wizard of all time?" said Dumbledore. "No, I had no idea that he was to grow up to be what he is. However, I was certainly intrigued by him." (chap. 13. p. 276, US). DD goes on to relate that he felt it necessary to keep an eye on him, for his own sake as well as others, and a bit later on, that he felt 'uneasy' about Tom's 'obvious instincts for cruelty, secrecy and domination.' If anything, Dumbledore trusted Tom too much--he didn't tell the other teachers about Mrs. Cole's stories or his own interaction with Tom; he allowed them to make their own first impressions and for Tom to start fresh at Hogwarts. He didn't write Tom off as somehow deeply corrupt or evil. Any teacher in any school would watch a child closely who has a history of frightening others, hurting animals and by his own self-admission, "{making} bad things happen to people who annoy me." > Pippin: > The contradiction is not in the narrative, but in the > interpretation people have put on it. People have taken > Dumbledore's words to mean, "we are what we choose to be." > > I guess it bears repeating that Dumbledore never said "Our choices > make us what we are." He said, speaking of Harry's choice not to > bein Slytherin, that it "makes you *very different* from Tom > Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far > more than our abilities." (emphasis in the text) Jen: There is some ambiguity in the text about choices. Dumbledore also states in GOF: "You fail to recognize that it matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be! Your dementor has just destroyed the last remaining member of a pure-blood family as old as any--and see what that man chose to make of his life!" (chap.36, p. 708). This statement is a good tie-in to Lupinlore's thought that Voldemort was doomed to be the son of a poisoned bloodline. DD is making the point here that if bloodline were the only important thing for a person's life, it should have kept Barty Crouch Jr. from becoming the person he became. It wasn't his bloodline in the end, but his choices. Pippin: > The emphasis is on examining people's choices in order to > determine who can be trusted, not on the idea that we are solely > what we choose to be. Indeed, if the latter were true, then > looking at the choices people have made in the past would be a > very poor way to decide whether to trust them, because they could > easily choose differently next time. Jen: Dumbledore proves he believes in a person's ability to change by allowing Tom to enter Hogwarts without influencing the other teachers and students. And in fact, I think he attempted to give Tom many chances along the way to change his trajectory. We see this in their last conversation, in this poignant statement: "No nothing," said Dumbledore, and a great sadness filled his face. "The time is long gone when I could frighten you with a burning wardrobe and force you to make repayment for your crimes. But I wish I could Tom...I wish I could..." (pps. 445-446). Up until that moment, it appears Dumbeldore still believed there might be hope for the boy he met that day at the orphanage. That the pieces of goodness in young Tom Riddle might reassert themselves and overcome the evil creation of Voldemort. Pippin: > How people become evil is a separate issue. To say that Voldemort > was not born evil does not say that his miserable heritage and > upbringing did nothing to influence the choices he made. Obviously > they did, but it is by the choices Riddle made that we are to know > this, not by his heritage and upbringing alone. > > Merope and Morfin had the same degenerate bloodline, even more > desperate poverty and lovelessness to contend with, but by their > choices, we know they were not murderers. Jen: So true. Admittedly, Tom had very little to work with, given the strikes against him in both nature and nurture. But I believe JKR is making the point of how truly difficult it is to sow the seeds of pure evil in a basically good person. Tom never had the chance to live the life of a Hermione or a Ron, but he actively worked against his base nature of goodness and *chose* to obliterate his soul, even after the opportunity presented itself to become a different kind of person when he discovered he was a wizard. Jen From nawyecka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 18:37:30 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050822183731.46852.qmail@web60417.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138420 --- lupinlore wrote: > > Larry now: > > > > Would you have one's basic nature, or character as > > deterministic? Do you suggest that a person with a > > powerful predilection for addiction is incapable > of > > overcoming that addiction? That a person of the > most > > reprehensible character cannot literally "see the > > Light" and choose to repent? You mention the > bible, > > what does the bible say of the penitent? If choice > > cannot be made to overcome character, there would > not > > exist a single penitent. > > > > Well, one way around that is a belief in > predestination. Not > popular these days, I know, and I don't believe in > it myself, but > plenty of people have believed it over the > centuries. > > More to the point of JKR's story, just because > character is basic > doesn't mean it's simple. It's entirely possible > for someone's > actions and choices to be determined by character > but have character > be so complicated and internally divided that > actions and choices > are often contradictory and seemingly inexplicable. > This may, > perhaps, be where she is going with Snape. I don't > know, but it is > a possibility. > > Also, even if you believe in character as a prime > determinent, > external stimuli play a role. If you are by > character an apple > thief but never run across an apple in your daily > life you probably > won't steal any apples. On the other hand, if you > work in an apple > pie factory, you will probably turn out to be a > criminal (even if a > petty one). > > Similarly if Snape had a job where he worked by > himself all day long > the abusive and short-tempered side of his character > might never > have come out. But putting him in front of a > classroom was asking > for disaster. > > > Lupinlore Larry now: Predestination is unpopular for a reason, as it negates freewill, and therefore tor very idea of choice. Hamlet could have chosen to decide, Lear could have chosen more wisely, and Othello could have controlled his jealousy. We all have flaws and weaknesses; the test of character is how we choose to deal with those flaws. Do we blame our circumstances or our pasts for poor choices and bad behaviors? Or do we take responsibility, controling our worst and weakest aspects. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 22 19:01:01 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:01:01 -0000 Subject: veritaserum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138421 Angela wrote: > But what about the Veritaserum? Any > thoughts on this? "ushit_k" wrote: Veritaserum is used as a interrogative purpose. Dumbledore used it to question fake Moody, Umbridge tried to use it to question Harry about the whereabouts of Sirius. I think that the ministry of Magic uses it in it's criminal investigations. It is more a part of the technique of magic (rather like legilimens). Similliarly the other potions are also part of the techniques of magic that the characters use for their purposes." This made me think of something that's bothered me ever since we were first introduced to Veritaserum (forgive me if this was pointed out ages ago, I'm a little behind in my reading!). Why are there any innocent people in Azkaban at all, ever, when the Ministry has Veritaserum at its disposal? Surely it would be a vital part of determining a criminal's guilt...especially in a matter that involves a lifetime sentence? Sirius could have been cleared, ditto for Hagrid, the DEs that "repented" wouldn't have gotten away...what gives? From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon Aug 22 19:11:18 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:11:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why protect the Malfoys? Message-ID: <194.4570d5b7.303b7d56@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138422 Allie.com writes: >Why offer to protect Lucius??? That, to me, is going above and >beyond the call of duty. Lucius Malfoy was a willing participant in >the activities of the Death Eaters the last time around, and he >joined up right away as soon as Voldemort returned. To me it's a combination of Christian forgiveness (whether or not wizards are christian, JKR is), and the principles behind the Witness Protection Program. Draco, as has been pointed out before is a child, and I see this as two separate offers. If you (and your Mom) need protection, just say the word. Dad is as safe as any can be (in Azkaban). When Lucius gets out IF he wants to join you, and IF he will give up his DE ways, he can join you (and be a useful source of information. DD probably made a similar offer to Snape, and perhaps even to Slughorn. Regulus and Karakov are examples of what happens to those who turn their back on LV and *don't* go to DD for protection. And there are probably those whose names we don't know, who are under DD's protection (Filch?), not to mention those like Trelawny who were never DEs but are in danger from LV. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bdasl at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 06:13:52 2005 From: bdasl at yahoo.com (bdasl) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:13:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's writing arm and artwork for the books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138423 Redeyedwings: > So we end up with superficially accurate, but ultimately flawed, > cover artwork, but JKR keeps her plot to herself until the book > drops ... Just a suggestion. > I seem to remember reading that you are correct, Redeyedwings, that the authors get very little information to work with - certainly they do not get to read the book ahead of time. But, don't you think THIS kind of thing would be fixed after the very first book? After all we find out Harry's wand hand is his right, as is his writing hand, in the first book when he gets the wand. Thus it would seem that there would be a 50% chance of having it wrong on book 1 SS/PS but after that they should all know ? Still could just be artistic license but you'd think the artists would recognize by this point that HP fans would tear their artwork apart for such obvious things. Bdasl. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 19:23:51 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:23:51 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > CathyD wrote: > If Harry is a Horcrux, why is Voldemort so intent on having him dead? > He wanted Quirrell to kill Harry to acquire the Philosopher's Stone. > Diary!Riddle wanted Harry dead. GoF's graveyard scene speaks for > itself. LV possessing Harry in the Atrium at the MoM so that > Dumbledore would kill Harry in an attempt to kill LV, is also, LV > wanting Harry dead. Dumbledore realized then that it wasn't his > own destruction LV was after, but Harry's. > > LV wouldn't want Harry dead if he is a Horcrux...that would be > destroying himself and making himself that much more vulnerable, IMO, > not stronger. If, in killing Harry, LV recovered the piece of his > soul that was inside a Horcrux!Harry, he would still be "a mortal man > with a maimed and diminished soul." LV knows that if he recovers > those pieces of soul (if they can be recovered) he will no longer > be 'immortal'...he doesn't want that, he's too > afraid of death. > > vmonte: > Because Voldemort does not know that Harry is a horcrux. Something > happened during GH that caused a "bit" of Voldemort to enter Harry-- > we know this. (If you can believe that talents are transferable, then > you must agree that a soul piece is also transferable, since it's > part of canon, no?) > > So, either Lily's sacrifice caused this to happen, or someone else > was at GH and caused it--maybe even accidentally. > > Let's say someone came with Voldemort. Lily's sacrifice turns > Voldemort into Vapormort. This other person performs a ritual to > absorb Voldemort's power but it backfires and goes into Harry. > The house explodes. > > This person cannot kill Harry without also giving up what he wants. > Maybe Snape doesn't yet know how to remove it? (I posted this theory > on another site and a fan mentioned that perhaps Harry was right > about the occlumeny lessons--that Snape was trying to make him > weaker. Maybe Snape was trying to figure a way to get to Harry's > powers.) > > See where I'm going? > > Anyway, Voldemort may now actually suspect what Harry is, hence his > order to the DEs to not kill Harry. Notice how the target in this > book was Dumbledore and not Harry? Is it too hard to believe that > Snape told Voldemort, over the summer, that he was treating > Dumbledore for a curse related injury from a ring that had a snake on > it? A ring that Dumbledore didn't hide but left sitting in plain view > in his office. > > Vivian Richard here: I don't agree. That isn't to say that your argument isn't a good one, and interesting, but you miss another important reason why Voldemort would want to be the one to kill Harry: Voldemort must prove that he can in fact kill Harry, and thus is as powerful, dangerous, etc., as he believes ... and wants everyone in the WW to believe. Further, by killing Harry himself, he eliminates the likelihood that whoever does kill Harry (other than himself, of course) doens't become a rival. It is thus a combination of personal necessity and political utility that Voldemort do the job himself. This would not be the case, were it not for the fact that Harry has foiled Voldemort repeatedly, and with broad public knowledge of this fact. In PS/SS, it was not really necessary, and the primary goal of obtaining the PS/SS superceded such a lesser consideration. In CoS, it would have been Tom Riddle/Voldemort who killed him via his use of the basillisk (sp?). TR/LV don't really directly play in PoA, but in GoF Harry survives Voldemort's attempt on his life, and does so with an audience of Death Eaters, thus making it more imperative that Voldemort do the deed himself. By the time we get to the end of OotP, Harry and friends have foiled Voldemort's attempt to steal the prophecy, demonstrated (again before witnesses) that Voldemort cannot possess him, and survived Voldemort's indirect attempt on his life (via Voldemort's trying to get Dumbledore to do the deed for him as a means of killing Voldemort during the possession, and this also before said witnesses). Given all this, it should not be surprising that now Voldemort is determined to kill Harry personally. Harry is now too much of a symbol of the fallability and defeatability of Voldemort himself for Voldemort NOT to kill him, up close, personally and before as many witnesses as can be mustered for the event. Were this NOT the case, I'd probably think your case good enough to win my support ... at least provisionally, and despite the issue that we are told that the creation of a horcrux entails the casting of a spell in order to effect the encasing of the soul fragment. But, with all this history, I find the line I've presented much the more convincing. Richard, who tries to keep an open mind because JKR is so very slippery. From saruca03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 05:02:45 2005 From: saruca03 at yahoo.com (saruca03) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 05:02:45 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and nurturing (was: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138425 Zeldaricdeau: < major snip> Harry clearly > has the capacity to empathize. He clearly isn't perfect, but > considering his situation with the Dursley's he has turned out quite > well. But what would have happened if he hadn't been given that one > year with Lily and James? Would he be just like Voldemort? This was a good post! I think you're right. In the first year of Harry's life he was loved deeply by his parents. Although he experienced abuse and neglect at the Dursley's house, he had a heart and obviously that is what sets him apart from Voldemort. I think that Voldemort displays sociopathic behavior. Like Criminally insane Saruca. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 22 19:43:13 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:43:13 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) In-Reply-To: <004701c5a6a8$8f4f42a0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachel Ellington" wrote: Rachel: > I actually think that JKR has provided us with the story of 2 children brought up in unloving environments, both orphans, and the divergent character development that insues. This to me is a contradiction in the choice matter as they have similar beginnings and extreme differences in character. > One has to wonder why Harry turned out to be such a decent person, while Tom turned out to be truly evil, if their personalities are not grounded in nature. LV also seems to me, so far, to be a shallow fairly uncomplicated character, whereas Harry has some depth to his character and struggles with his emotions. Geoff: Speaking as a Christian, I do not believe that anyone is born totally evil or good but that factors influence us to move in one direction or the other ? our disposition, our reaction to events and so forth. As I remarked some weeks ago in a similar discussion, I am reminded of the old couplet: Two men looked through prison bars, one saw mud and one saw stars. Much depends on whether we view our surroundings or events in an optimistic or pessimistic way - whether we see a glass as half-full or half-empty. Whether a problem is to be tackled and overcome or a stumbling block to keep us permanently feeling hard done by. Harry is basically an optimistic, affable person. Although his life at Little Whinging is made very difficult by the actions of Dudley and his gang, he obviously is prepared to try to be outgoing and friendly when the opportunity occurs ? as when he meets Ron and the others in Gryffindor house. If he had been otherwise, he would probably have remained aloof and withdrawn ? and unpopular. In my teaching career I have known pupils who have faced great odds because of background or health and overcome them. I recall a boy who was a thalidomide baby and had no legs and a deformed hand but who was one of the most uncomplaining people I have ever met and who today is the IT manager for one of our bigger cities. We also have a friend who we knew as a boy. He lost both parents before he was 11, was pushed around from relative to relative like a piece of luggage, then placed in care until he was 18 because an aunt and uncle didn't want him but is today an upbeat, optimistic guy of 45 who shrugs off his boyhood problems as past history. But then again, my wife sometimes labels folk as "Eeyore" people ? the grey donkey in Winnie-the-Pooh to the uninitiated. We have some friends who always see the down side of things. You say "What a lovely day" and their response is "Yes, but they are forecasting rain this afternoon". Other friends give a litany of their aches and pains when there are many other things for which they can be thankful. Tom had a rough time as a young child in the orphanage or so it would seem. Some folk have said that, unlike Harry who had 15 months with his parents, he had nothing to cling to. However, although Merope died in childbirth, Tom Riddle's comments in COS seem to imply that he had some sort of feeling for his mother's memory. But he went the other way to Harry and felt that the world owed him and that he needed to claw his way up from where he was and tread on anyone in the way. When he realised his wizarding ability, he turned to evil because he wanted to revenge himself and to put himself in the position where he had the power of life and death, he called the shots, his was the name which struck terror into those around him, including his followers. He chose to follow this way. His choice was that "he sank deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations that, when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognisable" (COS "Dobby's Reward" p.242 UK edition). He could have reached out to others round him and lifted himself to overcome and leave behind the horrible memories of his childhood ? but he didn't and chose to descend into the dark. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 19:44:15 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:44:15 -0000 Subject: Who is R.A.B., really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138427 "nuadan4me" wrote: > 1) The person who found the locket Horcrux in the cave was not > necessarily killed by the potion in the bowl (possibly because that > person didn't drink it), but knew that he/she was going to die soon, > possibly from some other cause (old age?). zgirnius: Hi Kathy, welcome! 1) is actually why I still like Regulus for RAB, despite the extreme obviousness you mention in a snipped portion of your post. If it was he, he would have found the Horcrux and planned to destroy it after becoming disillusioned with Voldemort and the Death Eaters (of which organization he was a member...) He would be expecting to be killed soon for leaving the DEs. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 19:50:25 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:50:25 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts ongoing staffing problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138428 "profuloth" wrote: > Maybe Harry will use Hogwarts as his base of operation and > skive off classes to find the remaining horcruxes. I can > see the remaining DA members being used to help him reseach > (about one-third to half of the DA have left Hogwarts). > Harry will likely pick up the HBP's book for potions help, > but will stay away from the jinks and hexes written in the > margins. > > Jason Richard here: I don't see Harry using the DA to do research on horcruxes, nor even for researching artifacts that Voldemort might have used, as this is too likely to result in a leak of the fact that he is searching for such items. All Voldemort would have to do then is create one more horcrux that Harry doesn't know about, and Harry CAN'T kill him. Here's how I see the team. The research staff is, I believe, Hermione. The aide-de-camp is Ron. Bill will be the curse breaker, and the thief (can't remember his name) the breaking-and-entering specialist. I suspect that Ginny will end up the fourth musketeer no matter what Harry says, primarily because she is already more than a valuable enough target for Voldemort as a perceived ex-girlfriend, as well as her fondness/love for Harry and the life-debt she already owes him. She will likely be the second member of the research staff and special confidante ... assuming she is that "fourth musketeer." Since Snape knows about 12 Grimmauld Place, it isn't a safe haven, and Godric's Hollow isn't, either, unless some folks forget that the secret is still in place in the person of Peter. (Death Eaters who hadn't been informed of this secret would not be able to find Harry there, and Voldemort, Peter, and others in on the secret would need to remember to look there (or in the case of Peter reveal the secret to any who go to look there).) The Burrow might be a base, as Mr. Weasley has observed that "half" the family owes their lives to Harry, and so I don't think he nor Molly would deny Harry anything ... including a certain daughter. Yet the Burrow is more exposed, and would entail risk to the Weasley's, which I can't see Harry being happy to inflict. I see Hogwart's as the best base for Harry, even if he is not a student there. It entails some risk to the students there, but as already canonically pointed out, it is one of the best protected places in the WW. Further it has about as good research resources as Hermione could wish, isn't under the control of the Ministry (but is under the control of its Board of Governors), and lets Harry remain in closer contact with Hermione, Ron and Ginny while they assist him ... preferrably as students. (I can't see JKR blythely allowing her child characters quite school when she so obviously keeps pushing assorted life-lessons for kids in all the volumes of the series.) But, that's all just my opinion ... which can be (and often is) dead wrong. Richard, who really doesn't want to see Harry dropping out, either. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 19:55:55 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:55:55 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138429 Richard wrote: This would not be the case, were it not for the fact that Harry has foiled Voldemort repeatedly, and with broad public knowledge of this fact. In PS/SS, it was not really necessary, and the primary goal of obtaining the PS/SS superceded such a lesser consideration. In CoS, it would have been Tom Riddle/Voldemort who killed him via his use of the basillisk (sp?). TR/LV don't really directly play in PoA, but in GoF Harry survives Voldemort's attempt on his life, and does so with an audience of Death Eaters, thus making it more imperative that Voldemort do the deed himself. By the time we get to the end of OotP, Harry and friends have foiled Voldemort's attempt to steal the prophecy, demonstrated (again before witnesses) that Voldemort cannot possess him, and survived Voldemort's indirect attempt on his life (via Voldemort's trying to get Dumbledore to do the deed for him as a means of killing Voldemort during the possession, and this also before said witnesses). Given all this, it should not be surprising that now Voldemort is determined to kill Harry personally. Harry is now too much of a symbol of the fallability and defeatability of Voldemort himself for Voldemort NOT to kill him, up close, personally and before as many witnesses as can be mustered for the event. vmonte: I'm not sure how your argument makes mine invalid. I happen to agree with you that Voldemort wants to get rid of Harry himself--because he needs to save face. It's just that I also happen to think that he is going to have to take out whatever is inside of Harry first. Surely, if the last word in the series is "scar" there must be more to that scar than just it's shape? To me it makes sense if Harry is a horcrux because I think that in the end Harry will sacrifice himself for his friends and the WW. I don't think that Harry will kill anyone through violence--JMO. It's interesting that Tom Riddle's diary had the ability to basically suck the life out of Ginny and regenerate itself into another Tom Riddle. Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP that he is amazed that with everything that Harry has been through and with all his suffering that he still is "pure-of-heart!" I think that Harry has a stronger will than Voldemort. Perhaps the protection Harry received from his mother has made him invulnerable to corruption. My feeling is that someone will remove the horcrux from Harry. Harry may even die or be brought back from the brink of death (Snape seems to be able to put a stopper in death anyway). What do you think will happen if the soul piece is put back into Voldemort? My hunch is that it may kill him. If Voldemort cannot bear to go into Harry's mind (OOTP) because of the love that resides in there, can you imagine what a soul piece that's been living inside Harry for 17 years will do to him? Remember, Voldemort also has Lily's blood running inside his veins. Vivian I know people think that Snape is a good person, sorry I just don't. It's possible that he may be redeemed in the end for some future act in book 7, but he has done nothing at present to suggest his loyalty to anyone but himself--again, JMO. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 20:03:59 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:03:59 -0000 Subject: Genius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138430 "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > Dickens was never regarded as a hack in his own day. His books were serialized in commercial magazines and he got paid by the word; that was not considered high art at the time. > Ben Jonson described Shakespeare as being > "not for an age but for > all time" Ben Jonson said that in 1623 when Shakespeare had been dead for seven years and 20 years since he wrote his last play. > I'd hesitate to say that about JKR Time well tell. Eggplant From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 20:07:26 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:07:26 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138431 > >>Del: > Betsy, > I hear your very good points about Slughorn's victims being too > physically old for him to be paralleled to a RL pedophile. > However, I already agreed that Slughorn is not a *sexual* > predator, so the fact that his victims are sexually mature is > irrelevant. > Betsy Hp: I think the reason I keep harping on this is because I *do* see a sexual attraction (or the vibe of one at least) from Slughorn for Harry. I don't think it's unhealthy or overtly predatory, but I do think Slughorn is responding to Harry, at least partially, as a handsome, charasmatic, sexually attractive, young man. > >>a_svirn: > > And whether he loves kids in general, or some of them in particular > I agree with Del: his, well, fondness, for Harry is indeed > expressed by JKR in a very suggestive language. And, as you > yourself noted, it does look like she "borrowed" him from Evelyn > Waugh's "Scarlet Woman" where homosexual Dean of Balliol "Sligger" > never missed an opportunity to pet the Prince of Wales and > otherwise shower him with attention. Betsy Hp: Yes, that's what I see as well. Both with the connection back to Sligger (which makes a lot of sense to me) and with the way Slughorn interacts with Harry. He's *flirting* for goodness sake. However, I don't see it being a problem *because* Harry is sixteen years old. He's quite close to sexual maturity now and people around him are responding to it. Romilda Vane, Ginny and yes, Slughorn. > >>Del: > > Let's just say that Slughorn is someone I would be wary of letting > my teenage child get *too* close to, not for his physical safety, > but for his emotional one, and even more his magical one in the > case of a wizard. Betsy Hp: I don't have any children so I'm not sure how I'd respond myself. I'm sure it's not a barn full of fun for parents to realize that their children are suddenly being seen as sexually attractive adults. So, since I have no personal experience on that side of the equation I'll have to look to Dumbledore. And Dumbledore not only purposely leaves Harry alone with Slughorn, he sends Harry out to get something from Slughorn that Slughorn is not that willing to share. Since I have a hard time picturing Dumbledore in a pimp hat I think he must realize that while Harry is Slughorn's "type", Harry is, in the end, quite safe. (Though Dumbledore does warn Harry to not get "collected".) > >>Lealess: > > But seeing as how this character was no doubt based on a > real-life gay man and may actually be a fairly good > characterization of that professor, it disturbs me that people > jump to the conclusion that he must also be a sinister pedophile. > His motivations may be more benign. Betsy Hp: I think it's a combination of two things: first we have an adult responding to Harry as a goodlooking young man, and second that adult is male and men are stereotypically the aggressor in sexual relationships. Since we've known Harry from his infancy onward I think it's hard to make that leap into near adulthood (and major kudos to JKR for doing so). Personally I think Slughorn is quite benign. I do get the sense that he finds Harry attractive, but I never got the sense that Slughorn was interested in anything sexual occuring between the two. > >>Lealess: > When Harry pursues Slughorn, the professor backs away. I am not > sure a pedophile would have done that. Betsy Hp: This is exactly why I don't get a "darker" read on Slughorn's character. Not only is he not pursuing children, he deliberately avoids Harry at a time Harry is making himself vulnerable to Slughorn. Harry needs something only Slughorn can give him and it's *Harry* who must pursue Slughorn, and it's *Harry* who gets Slughorn drunk and in a vulnerable position. Slughorn avoids doing the same to Harry. Yes, he wants Harry in his club but he only asks. He never threatens or blackmails or does anything that, IMO anyway, could seem a bit beyond the pale. Personally, I think it was important for Harry to pick-up the ability to use his attractiveness. He's going to need every skill avaliable to him to hunt down the remaining horcruxes and I think part of the reason Dumbledore sent him after Slughorn's memory wasn't just because Slughorn was more vulnerable to attractive young Harry than he was to distinguished old Dumbledore, but because Dumbledore wanted Harry to gain a sense of his own charisma (for want of a better word). (Something that I think Dumbledore, from the giggling old witches in OotP, was not above using himself, from time to time.) > >>Lealess: > One more thing: Slughorn wouldn't even be at Hogwarts if Dumbledore > hadn't dangled Harry in front of him, as a tempting addition to his > collection of students with potential for big achievement. I will > never argue that Dumbledore's choices for professors have been the > best. Slughorn didn't seem to be the worst, however. Betsy Hp: I'd add that Dumbledore wasn't just trying to hire a professor, he was also looking for a new Head of House. Knowing that Snape was only going to last a year at Hogwart (the DADA curse) I think Dumbledore was desperate for someone who'd look after the Slytherins when Snape (and Dumbledore, IMO) were gone. Also, Dumbledore seems fully aware of Slughorn's peccadillos, and he seems to look at them as something more amusing than threatening, IMO. Betsy Hp (who snipped out the rest of the horcrux discussion because she feels she's reached the point where "agree to disagree" comes in) From ellcam at cox.net Mon Aug 22 13:26:43 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:26:43 -0400 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) References: Message-ID: <002701c5a71d$23448370$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138432 Rebecca said: I think you are thinking of psychopaths/ sociapaths. Such people, whilst aware of feelings in others do not consider these things to matter. What a completely accurate description of Riddle/LV. As soon as I saw this Rebecca, I thought "Of Course!" LV is a sociopath! This actually helps flesh out his character a bit for me - there may well be no explanation for his evil core. Rachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 20:25:41 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:25:41 -0000 Subject: Hermione saves Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138433 > Alla wrote: > > I think that Hermione was always seeing world in Black and White as > if "authority figure is always right". > > I sincerely hope that HBP taught her that this is not always the > case. zgirnius: I think this was very true of Hermione at the start of the series, but she has gradually gotten past this well before HBP ever starts. Her actions and statements in OotP show this fairly conclusively to my mind. She does not respect Dolores Umbridge in the least, even though she is a teacher and an appointee of the Ministry who is close to Fudge. In fact she is happy to propose and carry out a conspiracy to thwart Umbridge in her attempt to keep students from learning effective fighting techniques. She is also the organizer of getting Harry's story out to the WW against the wishes of the Ministry (she thinks of getting the Quibbler to publish it, and blackmails Skeeter into writing the story.) While some of these actions might be actions that authority figures she respects would approve of, we don't know for sure as she does not consult with any authority figure to decide whether to take either of these fairly dramatic actions. She does them because they seem to her to be useful and good projects to take on. I think she has trusted Snape to the extent that she has because of her own past experiences with him (all the times Harry had turned out to be wrong in the past) and because she trusts Dumbledore's judgement. And not becasuse he's the headmaster, but because he's Dumbledore. Of course, Snape could be ESE, I personally feel we lack the data to decide at this time. But if he is not, if he is Dumbledore's man, or some such variant, I agree that Hermione is definitely a reasonable candidate for a character on the "good side" who would be able to see this. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Aug 22 20:38:09 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:38:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's House / Sectumsempra (was re: [several things]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138434 --- Michelle wrote: > 3. Harry's House: Perhaps he would have excelled in Slytherin, > but when he uses Sectumsempra against Malfoy, it is incredibly > plain why he is NOT in Slytherin. Unlike the things that other > SLytherins had done to other people, Harry was "horrified" by > what he had done. He implies that he would never had used the > curse if he knew what it did. That speaks volumes about where > he does or does not belong. Not arguing with your point, but it reminded me of something that had troubled me in my reading, and that I still haven't resolved satisfactorily. After Harry's understandable shock when he uses the curse on Draco and sees what it does, I was suprised and dismayed to see him try the same curse two more times: against the Inferi and against Snape. I understand that Harry was in extremis on both occasions, but even so, I was surprised at how completely out of control he was. Will he need to moderate his emotions before he faces Voldemort? Or is this just who he is? -- Matt From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 20:38:05 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:38:05 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: <14262fbd0508221103160777e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138435 Lisa Williams wrote: > I don't believe Snape knew that Narcissa > would ask for an Unbreakable Vow -- I > think he was trapped into it. Turn her down, > and he arouses DE suspicion that he's > on Dumbledore's side. Narcissa was not Snape's boss, if Voldemort did not insist he make an unbreakable vow I don't see how she could. Of course it's possible Snape had already made such a vow to Voldemort and he was just repeating it to Narcissa. > Dumbledore knew of Draco's plan, > Snape obviously told him That's not obvious to me at all. We are not told how Dumbledore found out but he told Snape to keep an eye on it, a big mistake on Dumbledore's part. > I can certainly see the other > side of the argument too. The polite thing would be for me to say I can see the other side of the argument too, but in all honesty I can not because none of the reasons I've heard why a good Snape would murder Dumbledore make one bit of sense. Zero nada zilch. Eggplant From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 22 20:39:47 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:39:47 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (but maybe not 100%) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138436 Eggplant: s that's true, in fact the only hope Snape lovers have is if > Dumbledore is not really dead and the entire climax of book 6 was all just a colossal hoax or practical joke; but if we learn in book 7 that it's true then millions of people will be storming bookstores demanding their money back. There is no way a plot twist like that could produce a satisfactory book. Pippin: The death does not have to be a hoax for the murder itself to be faked.Jo's bookshelves reveal her to be a Christie fan. I can't tell you how many times Agatha Christie had the cause of death turn out to be other than what it appeared to be. She's still a best seller years after her death and no one is asking for their money back. Certainly in a Christie novel a character who ingested *anything* shortly before death might turn out to have been poisoned, let alone a preparation concocted by the most evil dark wizard in a hundred years. Eggplant: > > I confess at the moment I have no viable theory what that argument was all about, but it doesn't matter that we don't know what noises Dumbledore and Snape made with their mouths on that occasion because it can't change the fact that Snape murdered Dumbledore and that makes Snape a villain. End of story. Pippin: It either means something, or Jo is cheating. Even a red herring has to have an explanation of some kind. Pippin "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not more so." -- Einstein From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 22 20:46:21 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:46:21 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts ongoing staffing problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: Richard: > Here's how I see the team. The research staff is, I believe, > Hermione. The aide-de-camp is Ron. Bill will be the curse breaker, > and the thief (can't remember his name) the breaking-and-entering > specialist. I suspect that Ginny will end up the fourth musketeer no > matter what Harry says, primarily because she is already more than a > valuable enough target for Voldemort as a perceived ex-girlfriend, as > well as her fondness/love for Harry and the life-debt she already > owes him. She will likely be the second member of the research staff > and special confidante ... assuming she is that "fourth musketeer." Geoff: I'm not so sure about Ginny because she is underage and can't go swanning off with the others. The Trio will be able to organise things more to their own liking because they will all be of adult age by the time the next school year begins - if it does. I don't know whether you are referring to Mundungus Fletcher as the thief because, if so, I wouldn't trust him with the telephone number of the local Wimpy Bar! From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 22 20:51:09 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:51:09 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > The polite thing would be for me to say I can see the other side of > the argument too, but in all honesty I can not because none of the > reasons I've heard why a good Snape would murder Dumbledore make one > bit of sense. Zero nada zilch. > > Eggplant Other than it wasn't *murder*? That DD asked Snape to do so? To not look at Snape actions, but look to Dumbledore's actions - based on what you know about DD, why do you think this theory does not make sense? We already know, that without a doubt, you don't trust Snape and you think he is *evil*. So, without bringing Snape into the argument, what is so unbelievable about DD asking to die for the greater good of the Order? DD can be ruthless, you know. He left Sirius in Azkaban for 13 years - when he could have easily found out that it wasn't Sirius who killed Harry's parents. He also had no problem convincing Flamel to *die* as well. And throughout the last couple of books, DD has stated there are worst things than death. colebiancardi From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 20:58:14 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:58:14 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing - Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Lupinlore: > > > .. Dumbledore, ... who is associated with ... the power of > > > choice and ... trust, ... relate(s) to him ... as a dangerous > > > and deeply flawed child, ... ..., we have a ... contradiction > > > woven .., in which choice and trust is emphasized but the main > > > villain is a monster from birth, .. > > Jen: > How Dumbledore viewed Tom after his first encounter is easy enough > to guess ... said Dumbledore. "No, I had no idea that he was to grow > up to be what he is. ..." (chap. 13. p. 276, US). ... > > If anything, Dumbledore trusted Tom too much--he didn't tell the > other teachers about Mrs. Cole's stories or his own interaction with > Tom; ... > > > Pippin: > > The contradiction is not in the narrative, but in the > > interpretation ... on it. People have taken Dumbledore's words > > to mean, "we are what we choose to be." > > > > ... He said, speaking of Harry's choice not to bein Slytherin, > > that it "makes you *very different* from Tom Riddle. It is our > > choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our > > abilities." (emphasis in the text) bboyminn: Isn't there some way we can work Horcruxes or Unbreakable Vows into this discussion? (He said with a sarcastic smile.) Sorry, just couldn't resist that. Excellent comments all around; very insightfull. Mostly I agree but later I would like to point out a sweet twisted irony in all this. I think people are generalizing Dumbledore's 'choices' comment too much. It is true that our choice in life are important, in a general life sense we are all a combination of our life choice and a bit of fate or luck. But Dumbledore's comment while still having general relevance is still given within a specific context as others have pointed out. I think, in a sense, Dumbledore is saying that it is what we do with our /abilities/ more than the abilities themselves that determine who and what we are. Expanding that concept in the context of the discussion, Harry is worried that he might be Slytherin, have Slytherin qualities, or share qualities with the ultimate Slytherin - Tom Riddle. Dumbledore is telling Harry that it doesn't matter, even if he has all the Slytherin qualities there are in double-spades, it still doesn't matter, because Harry chose his direction in life independant of those qualities. In a very general sense, Harry chose courage over power. Although, he didn't specifically choose Gryffindor, he did demonstrated courage in denying the desire for power. Temper this with the fact that Harry, in his 11-year-old child-like way, was more likely saying 'not Draco' than 'not Slytherin'. That in itself has a strange ironic twist to it. > Jen: > There is some ambiguity in the text about choices. Dumbledore > also states in GOF: "You fail to recognize that it matters not what > someone is born, but what they grow to be!..." (chap.36, p. > 708). > > This statement is a good tie-in to Lupinlore's thought that > Voldemort was doomed to be the son of a poisoned bloodline. ... > > Pippin: > > The emphasis is on examining people's choices in order to > > determine who can be trusted, not on the idea that we are solely > > what we choose to be. ... > > Jen: > Dumbledore proves he believes in a person's ability to change > by allowing Tom to enter Hogwarts without influencing the other > teachers and students. ... > > Pippin: > > How people become evil is a separate issue. To say that Voldemort > > was not born evil does not say that his miserable heritage and > > upbringing did nothing to influence the choices he made. ... > > Jen: > ... Tom had very little to work with, given the strikes against him > in both nature and nurture. ... JKR is making the point of > how truly difficult it is to sow the seeds of pure evil in a > basically good person. Tom never had the chance to live the life of > a Hermione or a Ron, but he actively worked against his base nature > of goodness and *chose* to obliterate his soul, even after the > opportunity presented itself to become a different kind of person > when he discovered he was a wizard. > > Jen bboyminn: Here is what I think the turning point for Tom was; the day he killed his father and grandparents. Up until that point as rotten and nasty as he may have been, he was still capable of being redeemed and setting his life on a more positive path. Once he chose such an evil act, the die had been cast and he became irredeemably Voldemort. Now the strange twisted irony of it all. If Tom had not kill his parents, if he had chosen to work hard and achieve all he could in life on the merits of his skill and ability, he would have easily achieved everything he desire. I believe if on the path of good, Tom would be the undisputed Minster of Magic, and a wizard of worldwide influence and power. Though his Slytherin qualities may not be liked by some, none could deny his power both as a person and has a wizard. Tom was a brilliant, clever, and charismatic wizard, as well as very insightfull and decisive. He had every characteristic to make him a strong and powerful leader, yet in a way that would gain him the respect and admiration of all those who knew and knew of him. If he had chosen the path of good, he could be the most powerful and truly respected wizard in the world. He could have chosen a life in which he forced people to bend to his will, or to live a life in which he used his intelligence and charisma to make people willing to bend. He chose the path of 'force' because he didn't trust himself enough to believe that he could rule the world with 'finesse'. You must see the twisted irony in that. If Tom had not killed his parents, if he had live his life to the best of his abilities, he could have had everything he wanted plus been admired by the entire wizard world. Now, having chosen his dark and dangerous path of force, power, and destruction, he has doomed his self to an endless futile struggle to try and hold together a world of oppressive domination and force tenuous allegiances. "Tyranny is the architect of its own doom." Not sure if I added anything, but there it is. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 22 20:59:36 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:59:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's House / Sectumsempra (was re: [several things]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: Matt: > Not arguing with your point, but it reminded me of something that had > troubled me in my reading, and that I still haven't resolved > satisfactorily. > > After Harry's understandable shock when he uses the curse on Draco and > sees what it does, I was suprised and dismayed to see him try the same > curse two more times: against the Inferi and against Snape. I > understand that Harry was in extremis on both occasions, but even so, > I was surprised at how completely out of control he was. Will he need > to moderate his emotions before he faces Voldemort? Or is this just > who he is? Geoff: Yes, but at least in the case of the Inferi, Harry was in dead trouble (excuse the pun). He had used Petrificus Totalus, Incarcerous and Impedimanta and they were still coming. I think this moment for him must have been one of the most terrifying - "...as he backed away still further he felt arms enclose him from behind, thin, fleshless arms cold as death and his feet left the ground as they lifted him and began to carry him, slwoly but surely, back to the water and he knew there would be no release, that he would be drowned..." (HBP "The Cave" p.538 UK edition) Sends shivers up my spine. In that situation, I'd try ANYTHING to get the things off me. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 21:09:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:09:16 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138441 Colebiancardi: So, without bringing Snape > into the argument, what is so unbelievable about DD asking to die for > the greater good of the Order? Alla: That is PRECISELY what is not believable to me. I believe that JKR hits us very strongly with " murder hurts the soul" metaphor and that is why it is not believable to me ( only my opinion of course) that "epitome of goodness" would ask anybody to hurt their soul for any purpose. Colebiancardi: > DD can be ruthless, you know. He left Sirius in Azkaban for 13 > years - when he could have easily found out that it wasn't Sirius who > killed Harry's parents. Alla: I am sure we can speculate that Dumbledore COULD have find out anything. To me the fact of the matter is that he had no clue that Sirius was not a secret keeper. In fact he testified at the hearing that Sirius indeed was a secret keeper. To leave Sirius in Azkaban knowing that he is innocent would suggest to me a very dark Dumbledore indeed, but I don't remember any proof to that. Colebiancardi: He also had no problem convincing Flamel to > *die* as well. And throughout the last couple of books, DD has > stated there are worst things than death. > Alla: Did he though? Or did he do what JKR suggested in interview he usually does? Let Flamel figure things on his own after their little chat? And I would like to say it again - there are things worse than death per Dumbledore, but I don't remember him saying that there is a thing worse than murder. Just my opinion, Alla From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 22 21:18:08 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:18:08 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Colebiancardi: > > So, without bringing Snape > > into the argument, what is so unbelievable about DD asking to die > for > > the greater good of the Order? > > Alla: > > That is PRECISELY what is not believable to me. I believe that JKR > hits us very strongly with " murder hurts the soul" metaphor and > that > is why it is not believable to me ( only my opinion of course) > that "epitome of goodness" would ask anybody to hurt their soul for > any > purpose. > again, I am asking those who think it is *murder* to think for a minute that it is not....see below where I will explain a tad further. > > > Colebiancardi: > > DD can be ruthless, you know. He left Sirius in Azkaban for 13 > > years - when he could have easily found out that it wasn't Sirius > who > > killed Harry's parents. > > Alla: > > I am sure we can speculate that Dumbledore COULD have find out > anything. To me the fact of the matter is that he had no clue that > Sirius was not a secret keeper. > > In fact he testified at the hearing that Sirius indeed was a secret > keeper. > To leave Sirius in Azkaban knowing that he is innocent would suggest > to > me a very dark Dumbledore indeed, but I don't remember any proof to > that. > Dumbledore - great at legitimens, could not read Sirius's mind and figure it out? See, I think he didn't care or maybe because Sirius was Harry's Godfather, he was worried that Sirius would intefere with Harry's upbringing and kidnap him from the Dursleys. Just a thought... > And I would like to say it again - there are things worse than death > per Dumbledore, but I don't remember him saying that there is a thing > worse than murder. > > Just my opinion, > > Alla but again, I am saying...what if it isn't murder? Mercy killing comes to mind. Hence, would that be the same thing? My other thought is that DD was living thru artifical means - helped by Snape. What Snape did was release him from that magic, so that is not murder at all. There are clues for both sides, I admit. it will be a long time before book 7 comes out...sigh.... colebiancardi From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 21:18:47 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:18:47 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138443 "colebiancardi" wrote: > Other than it wasn't *murder*? As I said before, the only thing that would make me forgive Snape is if Dumbledore isn't really dead, and then I wouldn't forgive JKR. > That DD asked Snape to do so? Why would Dumbledore ask such a thing and why would a good Snape agree to do it? > what is so unbelievable about DD > asking to die for the greater > good of the Order? Because not one of the "reasons" I've read explaining why losing their most powerful wizard helps the good guys makes one particle of sense. None. Self sacrifice is well and good but sacrifice for no purpose is just dumb and this is worse than dumb because Dumbledore's death makes things worse, much much worse. And if this was some sort of loony plan by Dumbledore nobody can explain why on earth he didn't tell Harry as he now considers Snape a mortal enemy on a par with Voldemort himself and are likely to try to kill each other. Eggplant From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Aug 22 21:21:25 2005 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:21:25 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138444 As always these days, please pardon the repetition if this has been discussed and simply point me to your posts on the matter: Wouldn't Voldemort's first order of business, now that he has a body (of sorts) to put them back into, be to reunite with his Horcruxes? Perhaps Harry won't have to find the remaining, missing 5 pieces. Perhaps Voldemort will save him the trouble and go collect them himself. This would NOT be a good situation for our hero, of course, as I would imagine Lord Thingy will become stronger with each reunion. However, I was curious if you all thought some of these Horcrux reuinions will take place prior to the final showdown? Thanks, Bohcoo From ellcam at cox.net Mon Aug 22 18:30:11 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:30:11 -0400 Subject: Sirius as foil for Draco? WAS: Re: There's no comparing Tom and Harry References: Message-ID: <001301c5a747$87f73950$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138445 Del said: So I don't think Sirius is a foil for Tom (I think he's rather a foil for Draco). No, I don't think Sirius is a foil for Tom, I think Harry and Riddle/LV are foils. Interesting idea of Sirius and Draco as foils. I didn't mean to suggest that Sirius had been abused, but merely thought of his parents' pride when Regulus joined the DE - an indication of what type of people they were. Sirius did go live with the Potters when he was 16. Rachel From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 21:35:14 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:35:14 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > Wouldn't Voldemort's first order of business, now that he has a body > (of sorts) to put them back into, be to reunite with his Horcruxes? This would defeat the purpose of making the horcruxes in the first place, which is essentially a diversification strategy: Don't put all of your soul in one basket. But you do raise an interesting question: Would LV would grow stronger by re-integrating some of his soul pieces into his corporeal self, or is such re-integration even possible? Possibly there is some tradeoff between diversification and strengthening, and LV might choose some amount of soul-splitting based on the circumstances of the world. Still, there's that magic number of 7 to deal with, so I somehow doubt that this tradeoff, if it even exists, is something that will come into play in the last book. Ersatz Harry From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:03:51 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:03:51 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Richard wrote: > This would not be the case, were it not for the fact that Harry has > foiled Voldemort repeatedly, and with broad public knowledge of this > fact. In PS/SS, it was not really necessary, and the primary goal of > obtaining the PS/SS superceded such a lesser consideration. In CoS, > it would have been Tom Riddle/Voldemort who killed him via his use of > the basillisk (sp?). TR/LV don't really directly play in PoA, but in > GoF Harry survives Voldemort's attempt on his life, and does so with > an audience of Death Eaters, thus making it more imperative that > Voldemort do the deed himself. By the time we get to the end of > OotP, Harry and friends have foiled Voldemort's attempt to steal the > prophecy, demonstrated (again before witnesses) that Voldemort cannot > possess him, and survived Voldemort's indirect attempt on his life > (via Voldemort's trying to get Dumbledore to do the deed for him as a > means of killing Voldemort during the possession, and this also > before said witnesses). > > Given all this, it should not be surprising that now Voldemort is > determined to kill Harry personally. Harry is now too much of a > symbol of the fallability and defeatability of Voldemort himself for > Voldemort NOT to kill him, up close, personally and before as many > witnesses as can be mustered for the event. > > vmonte: > I'm not sure how your argument makes mine invalid. I happen to agree > with you that Voldemort wants to get rid of Harry himself--because he > needs to save face. It's just that I also happen to think that he is > going to have to take out whatever is inside of Harry first. Surely, > if the last word in the series is "scar" there must be more to that > scar than just it's shape? > > To me it makes sense if Harry is a horcrux because I think that in > the end Harry will sacrifice himself for his friends and the WW. I > don't think that Harry will kill anyone through violence--JMO. > > It's interesting that Tom Riddle's diary had the ability to basically > suck the life out of Ginny and regenerate itself into another Tom > Riddle. > > Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP that he is amazed that with everything > that Harry has been through and with all his suffering that he still > is "pure-of-heart!" I think that Harry has a stronger will than > Voldemort. Perhaps the protection Harry received from his mother has > made him invulnerable to corruption. > > My feeling is that someone will remove the horcrux from Harry. Harry > may even die or be brought back from the brink of death (Snape seems > to be able to put a stopper in death anyway). > > What do you think will happen if the soul piece is put back into > Voldemort? My hunch is that it may kill him. If Voldemort cannot > bear to go into Harry's mind (OOTP) because of the love that resides > in there, can you imagine what a soul piece that's been living inside > Harry for 17 years will do to him? Remember, Voldemort also has > Lily's blood running inside his veins. > > Vivian > > I know people think that Snape is a good person, sorry I just don't. > It's possible that he may be redeemed in the end for some future act > in book 7, but he has done nothing at present to suggest his loyalty > to anyone but himself--again, JMO. Richard again: I don't think it invalidates your argument, just that it is stronger, and does not make as many assumptions of a non-canonical nature. I think that if there were a fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry, Harry's and Voldemort's souls would have been at war with each other from the moment that the transfer took place. By the same reasoning that you use to ask what a fragment that had been in Harry for so long would do to Voldemort, I ask, "What would being in Harry do to such a fragment?" I think it would end up dead, as can be argued from Voldemort's experience in trying to possess Harry in OotP. Yet, I don't see support in canon for such an internal war. A transfer of powers, as mentioned in canon by Dumbledore, is not the necessarily the same as a transfer of a fragment of one's soul. If the powers transferred were associated with that fragment of soul, I don't see how Harry would be able to control and use those powers, as the fragment would be continually battling to retain control of itself and its inherent qualities. We have support for powers being carried by a fragment of soul, as occured with Tom's diary, but that fragment retained control of those powers, and used them against Ginny. Wouldn't such a fragment in Harry have used its powers against Harry ANY of the times that Harry directly battled Voldemort? I suppose you could argue that each fragment would, given Voldemort's personality, try to establish itself as THE Lord Voldemort, given an opportunity such as that in Tom's diary encountered, and that such a fragment would not feel itself bound to work on Voldemort's behalf in any battle, especially as victory by Voldemort in such a battle would likely mean the destruction of the fragment with Harry's death. Still, we just don't see any attempt by a fragment to establish itself in Harry. I still say your argument is a good one, but I don't think it as strong as the simple one that Voldemort has to save face, prevent a rival arising, etc., by killing Harry himself. In the end, it is JKR's story, though, and she'll tell us when she's good and ready. Richard From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 22 22:04:37 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:04:37 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138448 > Alla: > > That is PRECISELY what is not believable to me. I believe that JKR > hits us very strongly with " murder hurts the soul" metaphor and > that > is why it is not believable to me ( only my opinion of course) > that "epitome of goodness" would ask anybody to hurt their soul for > any > purpose. > Hickengruendler: Alla, I normally would agree with you, but I think this is a very special case. Assuming Snape told Dumbledore about the vow, than not only Snape but also Dumbledore had a choice. Dumbledore had a choice between being killed by either Snape or Draco or to save his own life while maybe safing Draco, but sacrificing Snape. And in this case he would always chose his own death. Of course it means Snape had to commit a horrible act, but I still think that this is the less evil choice compared to the possibility that Dumbledore, Snape and Draco all would have died, if Snape didn't fulfill the vow. And I still don't see how Dumbledore could have survived this, even if the Potion wasn't fatal (which I think it was). Dumbledore was surely not happy about Snape having to kill him, but considering that otherwise three lives instead of one were lost, there hardly was any other choice. From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Aug 22 22:08:07 2005 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:08:07 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > This would defeat the purpose of making the horcruxes in the first > place, which is essentially a diversification strategy: Don't put all > of your soul in one basket. But you do raise an interesting question: > Would LV would grow stronger by re-integrating some of his soul > pieces into his corporeal self, or is such re-integration even > possible? > Ersatz Harry Now Bohcoo, laughing outloud over, "soul in one basket:" Since two of Voldemort's Horcruxes have already been destroyed, and he knows about at least one of the destructions (the diary), it would seem to make sense that he would be anxious to gather at least one other chunk back into himself to hold it safe. A spare, so to speak, on board just in case death strikes a little too close to the home fires as it did when he AK'd baby Harry. I have a sneaking suspicion that Voldemort kept two pieces of his soul inside himself in the very beginning. Maybe he thought he better have a spare onboard at all times, just in case; maybe he just had not gotten around to finding a good place to hide the 6th piece. In any event, I am thinking that when he AK'd Harry and the curse bounced back on him, it blew his body apart. One of these two remaining soul pieces stayed with him, allowing him an existence of sorts, and the other flew into Harry and left the scar. "But in essence divided," OOP, Dumbledore's comment, I am taking to mean that a piece of Voldemort's soul resides in Harry, but separate from Harry's soul. That would explain why Voldemort insists on killing Harry himself -- so he can get back that soul piece he accidently deposited in Harry. (Marking him as his equal...) So, since I am assuming he kept two pieces with him in the very beginning, I am assuming he is most anxious to reunite with a second chunk now, just to be on the safe side, just to once again have a spare on hand. (Sidenote: I don't think Nagini is a Horcrux -- Voldemort himself said in the GOF graveyard scene that animals were ill-suited to possession. True, possession for functional purposes and storage for bits of soul are two entirely different things, but I don't see a snake, basilisk offspring or not, as a smart place to stash a soul chunk. ) From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:12:21 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:12:21 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts ongoing staffing problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138450 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" > wrote: > > Richard: > > Here's how I see the team. The research staff is, I believe, > > Hermione. The aide-de-camp is Ron. Bill will be the curse breaker, > > and the thief (can't remember his name) the breaking-and-entering > > specialist. I suspect that Ginny will end up the fourth musketeer no > > matter what Harry says, primarily because she is already more than a > > valuable enough target for Voldemort as a perceived ex- girlfriend, as > > well as her fondness/love for Harry and the life-debt she already > > owes him. She will likely be the second member of the research staff > > and special confidante ... assuming she is that "fourth musketeer." > > Geoff: > I'm not so sure about Ginny because she is underage and can't go > swanning off with the others. The Trio will be able to organise things > more to their own liking because they will all be of adult age by the > time the next school year begins - if it does. > > I don't know whether you are referring to Mundungus Fletcher as the > thief because, if so, I wouldn't trust him with the telephone number of > the local Wimpy Bar! Richard again: Two points ... Mundungus doesn't have to know what is being sought. All he really needs is to be adequately paid. Considering the fact that he stole from Harry, part of the coercion to get his cooperation might be for Harry to say, "Either help me or I have you tossed into Azkaban!" That, plus enough cash, and possibly the promise of the very valuable artifacts recovered (he doesn't have to know that they will be seriously damaged before he receives them), could well prove too tempting for someone who is continually grubbing for a living. I'm not sure when Ginny's birthday is, but she will presumably be of age within the next year, and perhaps in time to be of help. But, when has being under-age stopped her? She's her own person in just about every sense you might care to name already. Being close to all three of the mouseketeers now (love, blood and friendship are strong bonds when combined), it may be hard for the three to stop her from playing a role. Whatever our theories and arguments, it will be JKR who decides what is canonical ... so let's wait and be surprised like we usually are! Richard From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:17:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:17:34 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts ongoing staffing problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > "profuloth" wrote: > > Maybe Harry will use Hogwarts as his base of operation and > > skive off classes to find the remaining horcruxes. I can > > see the remaining DA members being used to help him reseach > > ... > > > > Jason > > Richard here: > I don't see Harry using the DA to do research on horcruxes, ... > > Here's how I see the team. The research staff is, I believe, > Hermione. The aide-de-camp is Ron. Bill will be the curse breaker, > and the thief ... the breaking-and-entering specialist. I suspect > that Ginny will end up the fourth musketeer ... > > Since Snape knows about 12 Grimmauld Place, it isn't a safe haven, > and Godric's Hollow isn't, either, ... > > I see Hogwart's as the best base for Harry, even if he is not a > student there. ...it has about as good research resources ..., > isn't under the control of the Ministry ..., ... > > But, that's all just my opinion ... which can be (and often is) dead > wrong. > > > Richard, bboyminn: I don't think Harry wants to drop out of Hogwarts, afteral it is the place he loves the most, but I think he sees higher priorities than getting his NEWTs. As he said in the first book, if Voldemort wins, Hogwarts won't matter much, it will either be destroyed or turned into a school for the Dark Arts. So, the highest priority is for Voldemort not to win. Personally, I am surprised that Harry training has lagged behind so much. It seems reasonable that Harry would demand of Dumbledore much earlier that he train him long and hard with serious efforts directed toward defeating Voldemort. Of course, we know it is the flow of a good story rather than common sense that is driving the plot in the direction it has gone. It's very important for the hero to be the underdog and (mostly) working alone. It is the fact that the hero is illequipped to face the powerful villain, yet still willing to go, that makes him a hero. None the less, I think Harry true education has been sadly neglected. I'm not willing to write off 12 Grimmauld Place just yet. Harry or someone else could still become the Secret Keeper under the application new Secret Keeper Charm. The Secret Keeper Charm doesn't necessarily prevent someone from knowing where a place is, but it prevents them from finding and entering it. Certainly many in the Black extended family know that 12 Grimmauld Place exists. Even after Kreacher betrayal, Narcissa may have suspected that it was the Headquarters, but she is prevented by the charm from conveying that information to anyone. Snape say it himself, that even though Voldemort knows that Snape knows the location of Headquarter the Charm prevents him from saying it in any way. Now let's say the Narcissa suspected that 12 Grimmauld Place was the Headquarters and she came to investigate. Too bad, whether she knows where the house is or not, she still wouldn't be able to find it. As far as she is concerned, as long as Dumbledore or the current Secret Keeper hasn't reveal the information, the houses go from #11 to #13, and #12 simply doesn't exist. So, as painfull a place to live as 12 Grimmauld Place may be, I believe that Harry will still use it as a home or maybe just a house, if not a headquarters because it is still capable of being sufficiently protected. Even if that is true, I still see Harry spending a lot of time at Hogwarts, not as an active student, but doing research, taking private tutoring, and consulting with the wizards who are available to him there. That said; you have convinced, or nearly convinced, me that Harry might make the school the headquarters of the Order. I mean it is a fortified castle, it's remotely located, it's surrounded by walls, it's surrounded by the strongest protections possible short of the Secret Keeper charm. That's one reason why I think Slughorn will stay, because Hogwarts is a protected fortress with plenty of talented wizard close by to provide protection. Plus there is the convenience factor, living at the school, Harry would have access to all the resources he needed. Still, as much as you have convinced me, I still say that 12 Grimmauld Place is not out of the picture yet. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 22:25:04 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:25:04 -0000 Subject: All the subjects required for an Auror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138452 > > Valky said: > Snape does not *know* Harry is *the* "One" full stop. > He only knows "Harry is the one with the power" because he has only > heard half the prophecy. He could still conclude that the power is > the answer, and not the boy. Snape is into "power" like that, being > a Slytherin and all. > > > Valky: I have cut snipped and rearranged rather ruthlessly but it is needed in order to answer these points simply and cleanly not jumpingh from point to point. Elyse said: > So all this speculation of Snape *studying* Harry could > only take place if and only if, Dumbledore had told him the whole > prophecy. > Valky :) Ok first off this part, because it has very little at all to do with the canon discussion below. All my speculation of Snape studying Harry has to do with HBP canon. Not the prophecy. Speculation of Snape studying Harry could take place completely independent of canon about the Prophecy because it is based on: 1 Snape Legilimensing Harry in silence especially at the beginning of the year and also repeatedly throughout the year. 2. The silent DADA classes Snape spends watching Harry. 3.Small pieces of canon of what seems to be Snape trying to watch Harry in silence. 4. Snape giving Harry detention when he is well within his right to expel him. (and its not to do with hiding the curse he invented, according to canon he told the other staff *everything*) and finally 5. partly on Occlumency lessons that occured the year before. I just thought we should clear that up before I go on :) the speculation that Snape was studying Harry is independent of whether I am right that it has to do with the prophecy. > Elyse: > I would like to know of the canon that supports this statement. > Because, in OoTP I remember the prophecy as being > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... > born to those who have thrice defied him,born as the seventh month > dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal,but he will > have power the Dark Lord knows not..." > > And then Dumbledore says very clearly (canon here) > > "...that Voldemort's information of the prophecy was incomplete.. > ...He heard only the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a > boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. > Consequently he could not warn his master that to attack you > would be to risk transferring power to you > and marking you as his equal. > So Voldemort naver knew that there might be danger in attacking you, > that it might be wise to wait, to learn more. > He did not know that you would have *power the Dark Lord knows > not*-" > > Now, > That clearly shows that Snape *could not* have heard the part about > Harry having a power the Dark Lord does not. Because > > 1 - It came after the bit about "marking him as his equal* > which DD says Voldy did not know of, and > 2- Snape could not warn Voldemort that > he might risk transferring certain power to Harry > since he Did Not Know himself!!!!!!!!!! > Valky: Yes this is all true so my hypothesis is based on a semantic difference. Snape heard: The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him,born as the seventh month dies... In here it is said that The one with the *power to vanquish the Dark Lord* is Neville or Harry. Having only this to think about for a decade would have us speculating and theorising logically on each individual word. So why not Snape? The word *power* is in here, true not a power that the Dark Lord knows not. But definitely power that can defeat him. Elyse: > And we know for sure that he did not know because > DD told Harry that the only people who knew the full contents of the > prophecy were standing in the broomshed. > > Of course, DD could have told Snape later on, > but I highly doubt this. It was too late in the game > to let Snape in on it. Why would DD tell Snape the full prophecy > sixteen years after it was made? > Especially when Voldy could have Legilimensed it out of him > if Snape got caught? Valky: I am actully basing this far more dependently on Dumbeldore not telling Snape more. If he told Snape more then he'd also know that Voldemort and Harry *must* battle. Plus he wouldn't have enough reason to study the first two lines as deeply as I am proposing he has, if he had more information. :D Nobody has to agree, but I am enjoying exploring the possibilities. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:31:42 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:31:42 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138454 Richard wrote: I think that if there were a fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry, Harry's and Voldemort's souls would have been at war with each other from the moment that the transfer took place. By the same reasoning that you use to ask what a fragment that had been in Harry for so long would do to Voldemort, I ask, "What would being in Harry do to such a fragment?" I think it would end up dead, as can be argued from Voldemort's experience in trying to possess Harry in OotP. Yet, I don't see support in canon for such an internal war. A transfer of powers, as mentioned in canon by Dumbledore, is not the necessarily the same as a transfer of a fragment of one's soul. If the powers transferred were associated with that fragment of soul, I don't see how Harry would be able to control and use those powers, as the fragment would be continually battling to retain control of itself and its inherent qualities. We have support for powers being carried by a fragment of soul, as occured with Tom's diary, but that fragment retained control of those powers, and used them against Ginny. Wouldn't such a fragment in Harry have used its powers against Harry ANY of the times that Harry directly battled Voldemort? vmonte: I see what you're saying Richard, and you have valid points. But I'm also thinking of another quote that Dumbledore made to Harry in HBP. Dumbledore tells Harry that he believes that a horcrux is inside Nagini: Harry responds: HBP P506 "The Snake?" said Harry, startled. "You can use animals as Horcruxes?" "well, it is inadvisable to do so," said Dumbledore, "because to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business." I like how JKR sneaks this in. Now we know that a horcrux can live inside a living creature. We also know that it is preferable to put horcruxes in objects (like the diary) because these things cannot think for themselves. Which to me means that a living host can influence the horcrux. And if Harry's soul/will is stronger than TR's soul piece then isn't it possible that the horcrux might have changed in all those years of living in Harry? Diary Tom became stronger by feeding off of Ginny's fears. What would a diet of love and compassion do to Tom's horcrux? Vivian From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:41:47 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:41:47 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138455 > Now Bohcoo, laughing outloud over, "soul in one basket:" > So, since I am assuming he kept two pieces with him in the very > beginning, I am assuming he is most anxious to reunite with a second > chunk now, just to be on the safe side, just to once again have a > spare on hand. > > (Sidenote: I don't think Nagini is a Horcrux -- Voldemort himself > said in the GOF graveyard scene that animals were ill-suited to > possession. True, possession for functional purposes and storage for > bits of soul are two entirely different things, but I don't see a > snake, basilisk offspring or not, as a smart place to stash a soul > chunk. ) You know, assuming Voldemort wants to keep one of his "spares" close to him, putting it in Nagini makes some sense--he can keep an eye on her, she can defend herself actively (as opposed to the booby-traps we've seen on the ring and the locket), and it apparently makes her a very effective agent of Voldemort's desires. Which brings up another thought: What exactly was going on in OotP when Harry saw Nagini bite Arthur? Was Harry linked to Voldemort who was possessing Nagini, (my thought at the time) or was Harry directly sensing Nagini's actions through the chunk of Voldemort's soul that she carries? If the latter (Harry can link to pieces of Voldemort's soul other than the one in Voldemort's body), that has interesting consequences for the Horcrux search. Amiable Dorsai From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:51:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:51:20 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138456 > >>Larry: > > > Of course Snape had a choice, he could have ignored > > > her request, or even refused outright. What was the > > > downside, Bella would think poorly of him?, and her > > > opinion he values as highly as he values his own life? > >>houyhnhnm: > > If Snape is *not* aware of Voldemort's plan before the sisters > > came to his house, then what he learns at the very beginning of > > the interview is that there is a plot involving Draco. A plot > > involving Draco means a plot against Hogwarts. Snape may feel > > that he is justified in using any means necessary to obtain > > information, in that case. > >>Elyse: > Im afraid I have to agree with Larry here. > Snape is an extremely intelligent person and also a Slytherin > ("given the choice we always choose to save our own necks"). > If Snape had no idea of what Dracos task was, I doubt he would be > stupid enough to risk his life with a UV just to get information > on what it was. > Betsy Hp: So far I'm in agreement with Elyse. I do think Snape knew what Voldemort had asked Draco to do, for a couple of different reasons. First, Snape sounds like he's already tried to talk Voldemort out of using Draco. "Ifyou are imagining I can persuade the Dark Lord to change his mind, I am afraid there is no hope, none at all." (HBP scholastic p.33) Second, it really makes sense to me that Voldemort would have filled Snape in on the plan. After all, it'll be going down at Hogwarts and Voldemort has had first hand experience in how annoyingly interfering Snape can be if he doesn't know the plan. (Trying to get the Stone in PS/SS.) I'm sure he found it necessary to let Snape know that Draco will be acting a bit oddly and to not interfere. And that last part is important, I think. > >>Elyse: > As for Snape's motivations in taking the UV, I'm afraid I must > agree with Larry again and backtrack on what I said before. > He had a choice. He chose to take the vow. I believe this may be > explained by the whole Narcissa-the-rich-influential-pureblood-at- > the-mercy-of Snape-the-poor-unpopular-bullied-halfblood. > I guess the temptation to prove himself superior with the sudden > reversal of roles was too much for old Sevvie. > Betsy Hp: Here's where you lose me. I cannot see Snape making such a binding choice (and he knew the Unbreakable Vow was binding) for such a petty reason. Not without a Marauder involved, at least . My personal theory is that Snape took the Vow for exactly the reason he gives. "It might be possible...for me to help Draco." [...] "Severus -- oh, Severus -- you would help him? Would you look after him, see he comes to no harm?" "I can try." (ibid p.35) Despite Voldemort's not wanting anyone interfering with Draco (the reason I think he shared the plan with Snape in the first place) Snape is offering to interfere. He will try and help Draco. (Could this be the opening gambit to wooing the Malfoy family over to the Order's side? I wonder...) For some reason (and I really don't know why Narcissa goes in this direction -- lack of trust?) Narcissa asks Snape to take the Unbreakable Vow. Snape goes "blank" for a moment, madly calculating his choices here, I would imagine, and then he decides to do it. Remember, they've already gone through what Snape said he would do: help Draco and keep him from harm. And that's basically what the first two parts of the Vow cover. The third, of course, is the doozy. Could be a possible manifestation of the DADA curse, could be an outcome of Narcissa's lack of trust for Snape, I don't really know. By the famous hand twitch, this last bit was completely unexpected on Snape's part. Because doing the deed, or even insuring it got done, was not what Snape offered. What Snape was trying to do was help and protect Draco. He was trying to get Draco through this suicide mission alive. At first I reasoned that Snape was giving himself room, despite Voldemort's wanting Draco to do this alone, to work on keeping Draco safe and alive. (I think Snape honestly cares for Draco.) But it could also be that having the Malfoy family on the Order side, or (probably more accurately) against Voldemort, is important to the Order. (Knowledge of horcruxes and possible locations, maybe?) So maybe Snape thought this would be the perfect way to get the Malfoy family beholden to him. Either way, I think Snape had a very definite reason for choosing to take the Vow, and I don't think there was anything petty about it. Betsy Hp, who had a bit of an "aha" moment mid-post and is hoping that didn't cause the entire post to fall apart. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:53:35 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:53:35 -0000 Subject: Slughorn makes me uneasy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138457 --- > > >>a_svirn: > > > > And whether he loves kids in general, or some of them in particular > > I agree with Del: his, well, fondness, for Harry is indeed > > expressed by JKR in a very suggestive language. And, as you > > yourself noted, it does look like she "borrowed" him from Evelyn > > Waugh's "Scarlet Woman" where homosexual Dean of Balliol "Sligger" > > never missed an opportunity to pet the Prince of Wales and > > otherwise shower him with attention. > > Betsy Hp: > Yes, that's what I see as well. Both with the connection back to > Sligger (which makes a lot of sense to me) and with the way Slughorn > interacts with Harry. He's *flirting* for goodness sake. However, > I don't see it being a problem *because* Harry is sixteen years > old. He's quite close to sexual maturity now and people around him > are responding to it. Romilda Vane, Ginny and yes, Slughorn. > a_svirn: I don't see it as a "problem" exactly. However, one of the things that struck me after first "gulp" of HBP was the not-quite-faint suggestion of the "wrong" kind of sexual tension. I mean, yes, the sixth year at Hogwarts was bound to be hormone-charged, and the Trio discovering their sexuality was something lots of fans and most especially "shippers" among them had been eagerly anticipating. JKR for her part did treat us with a fair amount of snogging, relationship broken and built anew, lovers' intrigue and the like. Yet somehow Harry-Ginny romance for instance doesn't *feel* like a real thing. We are *told* that Harry apparently cares for her, but the best we can do is to take JKR's word for it, since she didn't choose to actually *show* Harry's being in love with Ginny. (Apart from his jealousy, and even that was in fact considerably mild by his standards. We've seen Harry's temper when something *really* gets to him.) Now, this would be OK with me, I am quite prepared to believe that JKR knows best (because she does when all's said and done), but I am curious as to why she for instance describes Harry's other and by definition less caring and less intimate relationships in language that strongly suggest sexual rapport? OK for Slughorn, at least it is he who is clearly attracted (why though it is so important for JKR?) But these "false leads", so to speak, are not by any means limited to Slughorn. Take for example Harry's "obsession" with Draco. I am fairly certain and willing even to bet that JKR does not envision Harry as a latent gay, and still less does she intend to pair him off with Draco. Yet, for some reason she describes Harry's attitude towards his old rival in a language fraught with sexual innuendos. We are *told* that Harry sometimes dreams of Ginny, but we never actually *see* him doing that. Yet we see him spending night after night thinking of Draco. We never saw him admiring Ginny's appearance or worrying because of some changes in it. (And he certainly never bothered to notice how pale or otherwise distraught Cho had been, even though it would have been a good move for an aspiring lover). Yet he takes in every change in Draco's appearance and positively monitoring him for signs of illness and decline. Draco gives up Quidditch and Harry looses any interest in it. His obsession makes even his best friends uneasy. And, really, all these "was it his imagination or did Draco really look thinner (or paler, or sicker)" sound almost like paperback romance clich?. I am fairly certain that it is not accidental. Yet I am damned if I know what she means by it. From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Mon Aug 22 19:17:26 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:17:26 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's treatment and pensieve /James v Snape In-Reply-To: <005701c5a730$b1e3eae0$c13b79a5@pensive> References: <005701c5a730$b1e3eae0$c13b79a5@pensive> Message-ID: <430A24C6.2070609@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138458 >Irene before: >Lots of less than perfect men would protect their wife >and child. Uncle Vernon in GoF comes to mind - he had >all the reasons to believe that Weasleys are a bunch >of murderous psychos, yet he is ready to protect >Petunia and Dudley with his life. Does that make him >an OK guy, then? Sherry: >school boys against the men they become. Not even Snape. My > dislike of Snape has never had anything to do with what he did at > school. I think we have a lot of canon, through the eyes of other > characters, to support the idea that James became quite an heroic > man. I'd sure like to see more of that, in the next book. I think you're right, he became a heroic man, but he wasn't at first. When reading about Snape's worst memory, I find it easier to identify with Snape being the nerdy little loner than James the slick jockstrap. But I guess that depends on 'who' you were in school :) The thing Sirius said to ease Harry's worry "a lot of people are idiots at fifteen. He grew out of it", I think this is important. He used to be a 'bad boy', "hexing people for no reason" but he stopped, grew up. I like how the books evolve, from the first two, that I consider to be more of children's book than the rest, to more into some kind of mix. Showing how Harry's dad wasn't always a good person is a step in that direction. /Fabian From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Mon Aug 22 19:20:39 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:20:39 +0200 Subject: horcrux = cloning? Message-ID: <430A2587.1070303@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138459 Hi, I was thinking the other day when reading a post about the horcrux diary Tom Riddle created. As I understood it, Voldemort could come back from someone writing in the diary, living on their feelings and finally come back to life to the cost of the life of the writer. Now, what if this happened after the end of book 4? Would there be two Voldemorts? Just a thought. /Fabian From smollon at pacbell.net Mon Aug 22 18:59:47 2005 From: smollon at pacbell.net (Sandra) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:59:47 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's master plan/passing the torch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138460 Namie: > I'm really glad that someone brought this up because it's > been on my mind for some time now. At the beginning of HBP > (at least in the UK edition), when Harry and DD leave the > Dursleys, DD tells Harry not to worry because he is with DD. > and towards the end of the book, when Harry goes > back to his dorm to get his invisibility cloak and quickly > tells Ron and Hermione that he's going to look for a horcrux > with DD, he tells them not to worry because he will be with > DD. But by the time they are leaving the cave, DD says what's > quoted above, about not being worried because he is with Harry. > > I was really puzzled by that. While I assumed that it did > imply some sort of torch passing, like Lawrence Carlin, I didn't > see any evidence that Harry had become the stronger wizard, etc. > This is total speculation but I wonder if Harry has always been > unwittingly, the most powerful wizard but he has not (and still > does not) completely know how to use his powers and that the > only visible transition is that Harry is now mentally ready to > hunt down Voldemort. Sandra here: In the first instance, as Harry and DD are leaving the Dursleys', Harry looks to DD for some assurance that just the two of them traveling together are safe, and DD assures him of that. By the time Harry makes the statement to Ron and Hermoine that he is not worried because he is with DD, we can see how much Harry trusts DD,even with his life. And, then, at the end, we now see that DD is showing trust and confidence in Harry. I think it is a wonderful example of both love, and trust. Maybe it is a foreshadowing of the passing of the torch to Harry. I don't always think that Harry is a strong and powerful wizard, like DD was, at least now yet... But he has a knack to make quick instinctual decisions which have saved his own skin, as well as others. He would also need to know that DD has faith in him. Much like a patronus spell that only works when the emotion is there, having that feeling that DD believes in Harry will strenghten Harry for the coming battle. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 23:51:59 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:51:59 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > > > Now Bohcoo, laughing outloud over, "soul in one basket:" > > > > > So, since I am assuming he kept two pieces with him in the very > > beginning, I am assuming he is most anxious to reunite with a > > second chunk now, just to be on the safe side, just to once again > > have a spare on hand. > > > Amiable Dorsai: > > You know, assuming Voldemort wants to keep one of his "spares" close > to him, putting it in Nagini makes some sense--... > > Which brings up another thought: What exactly was going on in OotP > when Harry saw Nagini bite Arthur? Was Harry linked to Voldemort who > was possessing Nagini, (my thought at the time) or was Harry > directly sensing Nagini's actions through the chunk of Voldemort's > soul that she carries? > > If the latter (Harry can link to pieces of Voldemort's soul other > than the one in Voldemort's body), that has interesting consequences > for the Horcrux search. > > Amiable Dorsai bboyminn: On the first point, I think Voldemort has killed many more times than he has created Horcrux, so he has no shortage of shreaded pieces of soul available. Further, I don't see any reason why Voldemort would want to re-united with his soul fragments in the sense of re-integrating them back into his body. That would make him more vulnerable not more powerful. By Dumbledore's own words, it's clear that Voldemort's earthly magical powers are separate from his soul. He points out that Harry should not underestimate Voldemort, and points out the even with these soul fragments gone, Voldemort is still and extremely powerful wizard. The whole point behind the Horcruxes is to keep bit of soul separate from yourself and keep it earthbound. That way if your body is destroyed, you don't die because your soul can't be destroyed. That said, that doesn't mean that Voldemort won't gather his soul pieces together in one place so he can personally protect them. Voldemort is a megalomanic; he is absolutely convince of his own complete superiority over other wizards, and further convinced that he is god-like infallible. He therefore would believe that he could protect the soul fragments better that the many enchantments that protect them. With only one book left, there has to be a shortcut to destroying the Horcrux; either that or they are a red herring. They seem to be the method by which Voldemort will be destroyed, and in a McGuffin-like sense, everyone in the story will concentrate on them only to discover at the end that Harry found another way. So, one way or another, we have to have a short-cut method of destroying the Horcruxes. Given what Harry knows, he could spend the rest of his life trying to discover enough of Voldemort's history to guess what and where they might be. That just too much time. There has to be a way that allows us to resolve the issue in less than 800 pages and in less than a year of book time. To the next point, you raise a very interesting question regarding Harry and Nagini. As I read this thread, I can more and more see the appeal of making Nagini a horcrux. She is intelligent and cunning enough to defend herself and instinctively try every things possible to preserve her own life, as well as being very mobile. That gives her an independance and flexibility that can under most circumstances be much more effective than a static location and bunch of charms. Plus as you suggest, it might give Nagini and Voldemort a level of connection that went beyond simple possession. With a Horcrux in a live being of limited free will, Voldemort may be able to use Nagini in way simple possession don't allow. So, I like that part. "She underlines that Slytherin connection, which enhances Lord Voldemort's mystique, I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything; he certainly likes to keep he close, *and he seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth*." [HPB, Am Ed, HB, pg 506-507] But, I'm having trouble accepting that Harry is carrying part of Voldemort's soul inside him. I can't completely discount it, but the book seems to go against it. Dumbledore is no fool; he knows that a bit of Voldemort's essense is in Harry, and he knows about the Horcruxes, he would have to be a complete idiot not to at least examine the connection between the two. But, indications are that he did examine it, and is able to make a distinction between Voldemort's soul and his earthy physical and magical powers. Sorry, but I can't find the quote, though I know it took place in a conversation between Harry and Dumbledore in the HBP. If I find it, I'll post it. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:10:31 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:10:31 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing - Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138462 Jen wrote: "Tom never had the chance to live the life of a Hermione or a Ron, but he actively worked against his base nature of goodness and *chose* to obliterate his soul, even after the opportunity presented itself to become a different kind of person when he discovered he was a wizard." Del replies: I disagree on two points. 1) I'm not sure Tom had any "base nature of goodness". We know that he never loved. I wonder how a soul that doesn't *know* love can be called good in any way. I'm not saying that he was evil to start with, but I do think that he was *not* good. He was neutral, in a way. And I don't know if he could *ever* have been good, truly good, good deep inside. He could have *acted* good, but could he have *been* good, without knowing love, compassion, empathy? 2) You say that his entering the WW was some kind of chance to change his life. But I don't think Tom saw things that way *at all*. The very concept of changing one's life depends entirely on someone realising that there has been something wrong with the way they've lived their life up to now. As far as Tom was concerned, the things that were wrong in his life were the world he was living in, the people he was forced to live around, but it was definitely *not* himself. He was special, he was better, it's the others that were wrong. bboyminn wrote: "If Tom had not kill his parents, if he had chosen to work hard and achieve all he could in life on the merits of his skill and ability, he would have easily achieved everything he desire. I believe if on the path of good, Tom would be the undisputed Minster of Magic, and a wizard of worldwide influence and power. Though his Slytherin qualities may not be liked by some, none could deny his power both as a person and has a wizard." Del replies: The only problem is that you are assuming that LV's utmost desire is power. But it's not. What LV wants, what Tom Riddle was obsessed with, is *immortality*. Power is not the end for LV, it's the *way*. Look at how he delayed the beginning of VWII, simply in order to get his hands on the Prophecy. He wasn't after power, he was after the way to eliminate the only person in the world who can vanquish him. LV couldn't care less to become the Ultimate Ruler of the Universe - if that meant he was still mortal. What he wants is to live, forever, in whatever form. No sacrifice is too big to attain that goal, not even the sacrifice of his own soul and body, his fame, his "friends", his most trusted servants, nothing. Unfortunately, I guess he discovered pretty quickly upon entering the WW that only Dark Magic can grant immortality, or prolong life. Good magic can't do that. So he went right away for Dark Magic, without caring one bit that it was Dark: it was his gateway for immortality, that's all that mattered. Just look at how excited he became when discussing Horcruxes: the fact that it is Dark Magic at its worst, the murders it necessitates to be performed, the hideous and unrepairable damage it does to one's soul, and the awful state of the person that survives because of a Horcrux, none of those things matterred in the least to young Tom. The only thing he saw was the possibility to *live* - forever. Tom never loved anyone - not even himself (being obessed with one-self isn't the same as loving one-self). Had he loved himself, had he cared for the state of his soul, he would never have become LV. But he never cared about himself, he only cared about accomplishing his only, life-long, obession: immortality, in whatever shape or state. And since you were talking about irony, Steve, here's the one I see: by making his life near-endless, Tom deprived it of any value. His cursed life is simply not worth living, IMO, and I think that's what DD alluded to when he said that there are things worse than death. Tom never realised (he couldn't, I think) that quantity doesn't mean quality, and that quality of life is what *really* matters. Lily Potter, for example, lived a short life, but what a beautiful life! But for LV, Lily was just a "silly girl"... JMO, Del From raylworth758 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:41:29 2005 From: raylworth758 at yahoo.com (Roger Aylworth) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050822224129.82748.qmail@web50804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138463 I have my own wild theory. I don't think Dumbledore is dead. I think Snape and he set this up in advance. I think JK gave us a tip to that effect when Harry said he could hear a tone of begging in Dumbledore's voice when he was talking to Snape. Also Harry thought he saw a phoenix rise from the pyre that created ther tomb. Roger From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Tue Aug 23 00:04:57 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:04:57 -0000 Subject: Echoes of Machiavelli and the Godfather in Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > I have not posted for a while because I have been rereading and > ruminating quietly on HBP (now on third readthrough). However, > while surfing the web the other day I came across an essay that I > think will definitely be of interest to the debate on Snape's > motives. Those who believe he is out for himself may especially > want to check it out. It's called Machiavelli's Prince Severus and > is found here: > > http://Tazmy.blogspot.com/2005/07/machiavellis-prince-severus-few- > years.html > In keeping with the sly fox Snape would be the theory that Eggplant, > Alla, Valky and others have put forth about why he did not deliver > Harry to the Dark Lord -- he wants Harry to do the dirty work of > getting rid of Voldy so that he can take over with clean hands. > Very Machiavellian, don't you think? Wow! When I read members' theories about Snape being out for himself, my reaction was "that would be very Machiavellian"!, but somehow I didn't make this connection between the Prince and the Half-Blood Prince. I think you've made a new convert to the TW! Snape theory. Thanks for the essay citation...very convincing:) One argument against this is that Snape has just gone on teaching at Hogwarts for the entire time LV was gone...do you think that during this time he was counting on LV's return and plotting to make his move when LV returned, then have Harry finish LV off, leaving himself as "Top Wizard"? Cheryl From sionwitch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:14:28 2005 From: sionwitch at yahoo.com (Virginia Villamediana) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive Message-ID: <20050822221428.42745.qmail@web33809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138465 > > hg: > > The idea that Dumbledore's death > > was faked hasn't been warmly received on any board, so I've been "in the closet" on this one. But I've been collecting evidence and re-reading carefully; I've got a lot of indicators that it happened, but without being able to secure a motive, I've been reluctant to post. Auria: > You said > you can't secure a motive. Well let me try here. Dumbledore knows > that LV can link into Harry's thoughts just as Harry could link to LV's before LV started operating occlumency against Harry. So logically Dumbledore would not want Harry to know of any plot to outsmart LV and defeat him in case LV can practise legilimens on Harry and find out. Virginia now: hg, I really like your theory and I really would like it to be true. I also would like to see your complete list of inconsistencies, but I have a question. If Dumbledore doesn't want Voldemort to read in Harry?s mind that Dumbledore is not really death, I suppose they wouldn't want either that Voldemort reads that they know about the horcruxes. So why they would let Harry to know about the horcruxes and not about the fake death plan if they are afraid of Voldemort reading Harry?s mind? Virginia. From ragingjess at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 22:25:31 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:25:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138466 >From Eggplant: >And if this was some sort of loony plan by Dumbledore nobody >can explain why on earth he didn't tell Harry as he now considers >Snape a mortal enemy on a par with Voldemort himself and are >likely to try to kill each other. That'd be the brilliance of what appears to be a rather improvised plan, if plan it is. Presume that Snape wants to destroy Voldemort, for whatever reason: the glory of besting the top dark wizard, revenge for some wrong or hurt, some other reason we don't even know about. Snape knows that Harry is somehow necessary to this process, but he doesn't have enough faith in Harry's abilities to get to the Dark Lord, much less kill him. However, if someone (like Snape!) was in good with Voldemort and could assist at a crucial moment, that person would be placed for maximum effect. At this point, Snape would be practically undetectable as a secret weapon, since every one of the Phoenix members distrusts him. And Harry, who is as easily read as my dog-eared copy of "The Godfather," hates him. Voldemort would never see the assist coming until it was already too late. (Strategically, it's pretty sound. Snape can handily defeat Harry without hurting him, so I don't think there's much of a battle to be fought there.) I don't think Dumbledore and Snape had this whole plan worked out in advance, but there must have been some reason why Dumbledore felt the need to unload all the information about Voldemort and the horcruxes at this particular point. Maybe he knew his time was running short, one way or the other. And once in the tower, I think he was perfectly capable of deciding fairly quickly that his life wasn't worth the loss of the secret weapon. After all, what's the other alternative? Snape takes out one or two DEs, Dumbledore dies anyway (and probably Snape as well), and the Order has no one in the DE camp. It's a sacrifice that makes sense to me. But then again, I watch too much "Alias." Yours, Jessica From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 00:11:52 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:11:52 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Richard wrote: > I think that if there were a fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry, > Harry's and Voldemort's souls would have been at war with each other > from the moment that the transfer took place. By the same reasoning > that you use to ask what a fragment that had been in Harry for so > long would do to Voldemort, I ask, "What would being in Harry do to > such a fragment?" I think it would end up dead, as can be argued > from Voldemort's experience in trying to possess Harry in OotP. Yet, > I don't see support in canon for such an internal war. > Valky: Believe it or not, Richard. I do see support in canon for such an internal war. First there's the reason Dumbledore chose to put Harry into the protection of his mothers blood, with the Dursleys, in spite of several thousand other kinds of protection Dumbeldore could have used instead to hide him from angry DE's and Vapour!Mort. There are quite a few readers that feel this was never satisfactorily explained in light of the awful treatment Harry endured from his Aunt and Uncle. The debate on wether Dumbledore should have chosen to *leave* Harry in this awful place for a decade could come to a grinding halt if we were to find out that Tom could have possessed baby Harry without the protection. It solves one of the mysterious contradictions in canon to think that there is a piece of Toms Soul in Harry. Second there is Petunia, who knows about Voldemort, was told something in a letter by Dumbledore and, I noticed at the end of PS/SS looked downright terrified hen she saw Harry back from his first year of Hogwarts. These things mke hrdly any sense, but if Petunia has been told "the terrible truth" and the terrible truth is that Tom's soul is in Harry and could possess him at any moment, but for the protection of Lily's love that Dumbledore invoked after GH. Third there is Moody's comment in OotP that Voldemort could be possessing Harry. The question of this seems to be closed by the revelation that Harry and Voldemort are only connected by the scar, and Voldemort was only putting idea in Harry's head through this connection. However there is still canon support in that statement for the notion that Moody knew of a reason why Voldemort might possess Harry. Finally, for now, there is the two snakes from Dumbledores silver instruments. Which are not easily explained by the connection between them in the scar. There must be a reason why this still has a question mark over it. And one answer is that there is a piece of Toms soul in Harry, that is indeed still blocked by Lily's protection from possessing him. I am not saying absolutely that Harry is a horcrux, but the arguments for and against have all lacked this canon in them. I couldn't sit by the fire without chucking in a few logs to keep it burning. ;D Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From raylworth758 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 22 22:58:27 2005 From: raylworth758 at yahoo.com (Roger Aylworth) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Detractors Unsophisticated. In-Reply-To: <20050822050359.5268.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050822225827.76302.qmail@web50806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138468 Lynda, Sorry to see you had such a painful week. Om the topic of HBP, I find myself pondering the possibility that Snape did not kill Dumbledore. that Dumbledore will return in the perfect undercover role as a dead wizard, and that he and Snape had worked out a plan in the event that Snape was forced to publicly "kill" the headmaster. I also think Snape may yet surface as some flavor of a hero. Roger ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Aug 23 00:08:21 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:08:21 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138469 > > Alla: > > I am sure we can speculate that Dumbledore COULD have find out > > anything. To me the fact of the matter is that he had no clue > > that Sirius was not a secret keeper. > > > > In fact he testified at the hearing that Sirius indeed was a > > secret keeper. To leave Sirius in Azkaban knowing that he is > > innocent would suggest to me a very dark Dumbledore indeed, > > but I don't remember any proof to that. > "colebiancardi" wrote: > Dumbledore - great at legilimens, could not read Sirius's mind > and figure it out? See, I think he didn't care or maybe because > Sirius was Harry's Godfather, he was worried that Sirius would > intefere with Harry's upbringing and kidnap him from the > Dursleys. Just a thought... Oh my, that's quite a can of worms! But it does fall under the whole "plot hole and contradiction" problem we've been discussing lately. I think that, in the end, we are going to see that the saga is kind of like swiss cheese - full of holes, that is. Why didn't DD visit Sirius and use Legilemency? Was it because he wanted Harry to stay at the Dursleys? Well, I severely doubt it. JKR's mad scramble back from OOTP signals, I think, that she sent messages on that and other issues she did not mean to send. JKR is great at inventing a background and presenting interesting characters. She's not so great when it comes to keeping her plot points consistent or thinking through the implications of some of the things she writes. I doubt in the end that DD will be shown as ruthless, or a puppet master, or the world's greatest conspiracy spinner. I think in the end he will be a figure much like he was in HBP -- a great man surrounded by contradictions and plot holes. Lupinlore From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 00:24:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:24:22 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing - Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > ...edited... > > bboyminn wrote: > "If Tom had not kill his parents, if he had chosen to work hard and > achieve all he could in life on the merits of his skill and ability, > he would have easily achieved everything he desire. I believe if on > the path of good, Tom would be the undisputed Minster of Magic, and > a wizard of worldwide influence and power. ..." > > Del replies: > The only problem is that you are assuming that LV's utmost desire is > power. But it's not. What LV wants, what Tom Riddle was obsessed > with, is *immortality*. Power is not the end for LV, it's the *way*. > bboyminn: If what you say is true in the absolute, then Voldemort would be content to be an immortal hermit quietly contempating life and living in some remote cabin in the woods, but he's not and he doesn't. He wants people to bow down to him, he wants to be view as a near-god, he wants to be called 'Lord' and 'Master', and he truly wants to be Lord and Master of all he surveys. True, immortality is his goal, but why? Well, certainly he is as afraid of death as he is of life, that part of what makes him as falable and weak as he is. He also has delusions of grandeur; he sees himself as above all others, and more importantly gains his value from that vision. Voldemort isn't fighting to simply be immortal, he want to rule the world and he wants to rule it FOREVER. But in that lies the flaw in the desire for immotality. To be King of nothing forever, really is not as good as being King of something for a while, especially if that something is good, fair, and just. > Del: > > And since you were talking about irony, Steve, here's the one I see: > by making his life near-endless, Tom deprived it of any value. His > cursed life is simply not worth living, IMO, and I think that's what > DD alluded to when he said that there are things worse than death. > Tom never realised (he couldn't, I think) that quantity doesn't mean > quality, and that quality of life is what *really* matters. Lily > Potter, for example, lived a short life, but what a beautiful life! > But for LV, Lily was just a "silly girl"... > > JMO, > > Del bboyminn; On general principle, I agree with what you said, both the irony cast immediately above and your comments father up about Voldemort's motives. I don't think we see the issue so differently, but are in fact simply contempating different parts of the elephant. I really do see the twisted irony in seeking out a worthless life that lasts forever, over living a life well and good, and giving at mortally short life value and meaning. Poor quy :( . Remember, regardless of his motives this general principle holds true - "Tyranny is the architect of its own doom." Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From grega126 at aol.com Tue Aug 23 00:52:31 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:52:31 -0000 Subject: "Seeing" the Invisible Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138471 So in SS/PS, we saw what we can presume to be Dumbledore, seeing through Harry's Invisiblity cloak. In CoS, Dumbledore sees through Harry's cloak again, immediately identifying where Harry and Ron were hiding in Hagrid's cabin. We don't see much of this again until HBP, when Dumbledore identifies the entrance to the cave, the words that were written and the location of the boat, all of which from Harry's point of view seem to be invisible. So the question becomes, is this "seeing the invisble" a.) a unique trait of Dumbledore's, b.) a trait like a metamorphagus that is something inborn to each person (and so therefore something Harry's going to have to deal w/o in book 7) or c.) something that Harry can learn. At the absolute best, it seems to me that this is a phenominally rare trait. In GoF, Moody/Crouch says that he can see Harry through the cloak not b/c he knew he was there, but b/c of the eye. Snape's never been able to see Harry when he's in his cloak and Karkaroff and Madame Maxine were both unable to see him in GoF before the first task. >From both the trip to the cave, and the little we know about Dumbledore's trip to the Gaunt house, both of Voldemort's Horcruxes were at least partially hidden from sight. This means two things. Number one, Voldemort is likely to be another person who can "see the invisible", and 2 Harry's going to need to be able to do the same to find the remaining hidden Horcruxes. But where's he going to learn that? Greg From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 01:21:07 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:21:07 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138472 > Colebiancardi: > > So, without bringing Snape into the argument, what is so > unbelievable about DD asking to die for the greater good of the > Order? > > Alla: > > That is PRECISELY what is not believable to me. I believe that JKR > hits us very strongly with " murder hurts the soul" metaphor and > that is why it is not believable to me ( only my opinion of course) > that "epitome of goodness" would ask anybody to hurt their soul for > any purpose. Valky: But we know he did, He ordered Harry to force feed him the potion, knowing that it could possibly kill him. Does feeding your ally poison while he is screaming at you to stop qualify as hurting the soul? It was as near as attempted murder as one could go without ever attempting murder IMO, Harry's actions in the cave were not light yoke on his soul. It's not attempted murder when Harry does it in the cave, so if Snape was under similar orders to curse Dumbledore on the tower, is it the same as what Harry did? There is enough evidence to be going on with speculation that Snapes AK was either a fake or half hearted, Dumbledores peaceful expression, his flying up in the air, the fact that Harry's scream never left him when Dumbledore *should* have already been dead and couldn't move until approximately the moment when Dumbledores body hit the ground. There is absolute mounds of questionables hanging over that Avada Kedavra, it is absolutely *not* a given indisputable cold blooded AK we've seen one of those and it looked remarkably different. Speculation on the reasons for those differences is open to us, I am sure you agree, the thing is that I disagree that there is any absolute canon against this one. What Snape did on the tower could be no worse than what Harry did in the cave, and YES Dumbledore would ask someone to do it. Funny thing is, somehow he is still the 'epitome of goodness', so there is something we are not seeing, I think. > Colebiancardi: > > DD can be ruthless, you know. He left Sirius in Azkaban for 13 > > years - when he could have easily found out that it wasn't Sirius > > who killed Harry's parents. > > Alla: > > I am sure we can speculate that Dumbledore COULD have find out > anything. To me the fact of the matter is that he had no clue that > Sirius was not a secret keeper. > > In fact he testified at the hearing that Sirius indeed was a secret > keeper. To leave Sirius in Azkaban knowing that he is innocent would > suggest to me a very dark Dumbledore indeed, but I don't remember > any proof to that. Valky: I am with Alla on this one. I don't think tht Sirius being left in Azkaban was ruthless Dumbeldore at work. Lily and James had said to DD thnks very much Sir and please let us handle this one ourselves. He might have had or not had suspicions for or against Sirius. If he was at the trial at the MOM it's possible that magicl powers that work on peoples mind were protectd against within the courts of the MOm, but even if they weren't and DD using Legilimency realised that Sirius was telling the truth he consistently has trouble ith the MOM and their law enforcement, they will have locked Sirius up even if he had argued agaisnt it. Fudge was only interested in DD's opinion when it didn't conflict with his. There is no canon saying that DD thought Sirius was guilty. Rumour has it the DD testified that Sirius *was* Lily and James secret keeper, and he may well have gone as far as to say "..*when* I knew who the secret keeper was, which I did not after such and such date, upon the decision of Lily and James themselves." But would Fudge's MOM have paid any attention to this part of Dumbledores testimony? No they wouldn't. Finally, Dumbeldore did not go to Godrics Hollow to collect Harry, Hagrid did, and Sirius went there too. Dumbledore most likely couldn't because he was not given the information by the secret keeper, and the house was still hiding Harry. My take on all this, Dumbledore wasn't really testifying against Sirius, he was used by Fudge's MOM to lock Sirius up in Azkaban, and because he couldn't testify against the real secret keeper he had no choice but to give his true testimony of what he knew, which Fudge latched onto like a vulture. > Colebiancardi: > He also had no problem convincing Flamel to > > *die* as well. And throughout the last couple of books, DD has > > stated there are worst things than death. > > > > > Alla: > > Did he though? Or did he do what JKR suggested in interview he > usually does? Let Flamel figure things on his own after their little > chat? > And I would like to say it again - there are things worse than death > per Dumbledore, but I don't remember him saying that there is a > thing worse than murder. > Valky: I have a take on this one too, since my recent reread of PS/SS. I think that Dumbledore and Flamels little chat would have been about Harry. Flamel was, I think, over it all, ready to move on and destroy the stone, for quite a while before Harry started Hogwarts, but Dumbledore had asked him if he could use the stone for this one little thing that would be very important to the world. Flamel, having had already more riches and life than he could stomach, said, sure Old Friend, I am glad to offer it to the good of the WW, it's boring the hell out of me lately anyhow, nice to see it put to good use again at last. ;D Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Aug 23 01:43:36 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:43:36 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "njelliot2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > B.t.w., am I the only one who founds that *hor*-crux sounds > > slightly indecent? > > Nicholas responds: > Couldn't agree more - slightly indecent with overtones of blasphemy > because of the juxtaposition of "hor"/whore and "crux"/cross (from > Latin) which I take to mean crucifix. The word gives me the creeps! If you go looking for trouble you can find it anywhere. ;-) First, "crux" doesn't just mean "cross" (which itself in this context means a symbol more like a heraldic cross; it also refers to the constellation Southern cross and IMO does not automatically connote "crucifix", which has a separate and discrete liturgical meaning); it also means "a difficult problem or troubling thing." More interestingly, it also means "the essential or deciding point". "Hor" of course has nothing to do with "whore" (apart from being a homonym). ;-) My first thought was that it was related to the Greek word for hour/time, "hora." But thinking about it more, I came to the conclusion that since it's an abbreviation either way, that it probably comes from the Greek word "horreum" which in its simplest sense means "storage." What is interesting is that for LV, "horcrux" means "storage of that which is essential or deciding" and for DD, and now Harry, it can mean "the stored (or hidden) troubling thing". My apologies if this has already been covered; the search function for yahoogroups doesn't seem quite up to fully sifting through the messages here. jujube (obviously trying to read some of the "old" HPB messages) From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 23 02:13:20 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:13:20 -0000 Subject: Possible Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138474 a_svirn: > > > B.t.w., am I the only one who founds that *hor*-crux sounds > > > slightly indecent? Nicholas responds: > > Couldn't agree more - slightly indecent with > > overtones of blasphemy because of the juxtaposition > > of "hor"/whore and "crux"/cross (from Latin) which > > I take to mean crucifix. The word gives me the creeps! jujube: > If you go looking for trouble you can find it anywhere. ;-) houyhnhnm: Such as the Ministry of Magic telephone number? six two four four two? :-) Thanks for the etymology, BTW. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 02:25:13 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:25:13 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive In-Reply-To: <20050822221428.42745.qmail@web33809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138475 > Virginia: > hg, I really like your theory and I really would like it to be > true. I also would like to see your complete list of inconsistencies, > but I have a question. > > If Dumbledore doesn't want Voldemort to read in Harry's mind that > Dumbledore is not really dead, I suppose they wouldn't want either > that Voldemort reads that they know about the horcruxes. So why they > would let Harry to know about the horcruxes and not about the fake > death plan if they are afraid of Voldemort reading Harry's mind? hg: Really good question. It bugs me, too. It's why I wondered if Slughorn planned the death-faking and Dumbledore didn't. I don't think Slughorn trusts Snape, even if Dumbledore does. (If it was Slughorn on the tower portraying Dumbledore, he'd have his pockets loaded with tricks in preparation for any contingencies.) But I think he would do just about anything for Harry, and saving Dumbledore's life would easily be one of those things, even if Dumbledore disagreed. If Dumbledore planned it, I think he would have concluded late in the book that it needed to happen; and the hope would be that if Voldemort were to take a peek into Harry's mind to see if it was true, that he'd be looking for something specific, not be rummaging around through anything else. Ultimately, Dumbledore doesn't seem to worry anymore that Voldemort would go into Harry's mind, since the possession episode at the Ministry. But if Dumbledore's death was faked, then for Dumbledore's protection Harry would have to be convinced of the death, at least in the short term, as the wizarding world would likely look to Harry for answers -- and salvation (shudder). I did put up my abbreviated list, without quotations or pages, in post number 138190. It's way up this thread somewhere. Mind you, I'm not sold, myself, on the idea that Dumbledore was portrayed by Slughorn in the cave/tower scene, but since there were so many indicators that it was a possibility, I couldn't in good conscience overlook them. However, I do favor the idea that Slughorn faked Dumbledore's death, whether he stood in for Dumbledore or was just backstage orchestrating the show on the tower. I won't post as yet about my other ideas about Slughorn, because I haven't put it all together. And I'd get laughed off the board. Thanks for writing, Virginia; tell me what you think when you look at the list. hg. From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 23 02:40:23 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:40:23 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138476 Colebiancardi: > > > > > > So, without bringing Snape into the argument, > > > what is so unbelievable about DD asking to die for > > > the greater good of the Order? Alla: > > That is PRECISELY what is not believable to me. > > I believe that JKR hits us very strongly with " murder > > hurts the soul" metaphor and that is why it is not > > believable to me ( only my opinion of course) > > that "epitome of goodness" would ask anybody to > > hurt their soul for any purpose. houyhnhnm: Don't forget *Harry* was on the tower. What would have happened to *him* had Snape not performed the curse? Dumbledore dead. Snape dead. Malfoy possibly dead. And Harry left alone with four Death Eaters, one of whom is the monster Fenrir. It would all have been over. Colebiancardi: > > > DD can be ruthless, you know. He left Sirius > > > in Azkaban for 13 years - when he could have easily > > > found out that it wasn't Sirius who killed Harry's parents. Alla: > > I am sure we can speculate that Dumbledore COULD > > have find out anything. To me the fact of the matter > > is that he had no clue that Sirius was not a secret keeper. > > In fact he testified at the hearing that Sirius indeed > > was a secret keeper. To leave Sirius in Azkaban knowing > > that he is innocent would suggest to me a very dark > > Dumbledore indeed, but I don't remember any proof to that. Valky: > I am with Alla on this one. I don't think tht Sirius > being left in Azkaban was ruthless Dumbeldore at work. > Lily and James had said to DD thnks very much Sir and > please let us handle this one ourselves. He might have > had or not had suspicions for or against Sirius. If he was > at the trial at the MOM it's possible that magicl > powers that work on peoples mind were protectd against > within the courts of the MOm, but even if they weren't > and DD using Legilimency realised that Sirius was telling > the truth he consistently has trouble ith the MOM and their > law enforcement, they will have locked Sirius up even if > he had argued agaisnt it. houyhnhnm: But Sirius never got a trial. Crouch just whisked him off to Azkaban. No one appears to have known that the Potters changed their secret keeper. It does seem possible that Dumbledore used Legilimency on Sirius when Dumbledore interviewed him in Flitwick's office. Maybe that's why he was so ready to believe the Trio. From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 02:42:26 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:42:26 -0000 Subject: Echoes of Machiavelli and the Godfather in Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138477 Cheryl wrote: > Wow! When I read members' theories about Snape being out for > himself, my reaction was "that would be very Machiavellian"!, but > somehow I didn't make this connection between the Prince and the > Half-Blood Prince. I think you've made a new convert to the TW! > Snape theory. Thanks for the essay citation...very convincing:) > > One argument against this is that Snape has just gone on teaching at > Hogwarts for the entire time LV was gone...do you think that during > this time he was counting on LV's return and plotting to make his > move when LV returned, then have Harry finish LV off, leaving > himself as "Top Wizard"? My guess -- only a guess -- is that he was hedging his bets, and allying himself with the winning side, which for a time did indeed seem like Dumbledore's side. When Voldemort came back, I think he did a recalculation and shifted allegiance. Whatever the case, if he is a true Machiavellian and a true self-preserving Slytherin, he will do whatever furthers his own cause and preserves his own well being. But it's a dangerous game he's been playing, and he risks being rejected by both sides now -- by the Order for obvious reasons, and by Voldemort for screwing up his plans to use Draco's "assignment" to punish and humiliate the Malfoys. Going back to the Godfather analogy, Mob bosses (which in the end is what Voldy is, when you strip away the magical glamour) tend to frown on their lieutenant's taking matters into their own hands. I'm not saying Snape has no conscience at all, but I don't think that his conscience has been strong enough to overcome his deep bitterness and will to power. Not yet anyway. I'm hoping that it will in Book Seven. I'd hate to think he's a wholly lost cause. Inkling From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 02:47:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:47:37 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore?/ Snape as good spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138478 > Valky: >> It's not attempted murder when Harry does it in the cave, so if Snape > was under similar orders to curse Dumbledore on the tower, is it the > same as what Harry did? >I disagree that there is any > absolute canon against this one. What Snape did on the tower could be > no worse than what Harry did in the cave, and YES Dumbledore would ask > someone to do it. > > Funny thing is, somehow he is still the 'epitome of goodness', so > there is something we are not seeing, I think. Alla: It seems that I am disagreeing on post HBP Snape with people whom I used to agree with all the time :-) Sorry, dear Valky. :-) I realised that I actually never expressed my opinion on much brought up parallel between Snape look of hatred and Harry's hating himself when he forcefeeds the potion to Albus. You could be right, definitely, it could be a parallel. But it also could be a comparison between two and showing how Harry and Snape choices show that they are completely different people, you know. IMO, the reason JKR shows it is not to show Harry and Snape do two similar things, but two very different ones. Snape's turning on his mentor, his employer - choosing easy over right and Harry doing what he had been ordered, even though it is incredibly hard. I think that just as JKR shows how Tom and Harry walked two different paths in life,even though they may have started similarly,she does the similar thing with Harry and Snape. But again, since I am reading the same canon as you are but in a different way, I realise that mine is not stronger than yours, since I have no additional canon support to offer right now. One more thing - IF we learn for sure that potion WAS fatal, than yours is even stronger. Right now I firmly believe that Dumbledore expected to be healed after that adventure. > > Valky: > I am with Alla on this one. I don't think that Sirius being left in > Azkaban was ruthless Dumbeldore at work. Alla: Oh, we still agree on something. :-) > > Ushit_K > > Even an old and waning Dumbledore is a powerful asset. By losing him the Order and anti > > Voldemort forces have lost a lot. Colebiancardi: > yes, they have. No one is disputing that. However, Dumbledore > wasn't going to live forever. Are you thinking that no one else can > lead the OotP? I don't think Snape will lead the OotP and I don't > think anyone is stating that. I do think the Snape's asset of being > a spy is much more important at this time - he is the only one in the > Order that can get *close* to Voldemort(or as close as LV will let > anyone). The battle is coming to a climax and all the insights that > Snape can gather and any havoc he can create in the DE's lair will be > extremely important. Alla: I am still not picturing clearly how post HBP Snape can be useful to the Order more than Dumbledore? And believe me, I DO want to understand the theory even the one I disagree with completely. As others suggested, the fact that all Order Members turned out on him REALLY fast makes it very hard for Snape to pass the information to the Order. I mean I guess he can pass it anonimously, but I wonder how much trust OOP members would give to anonimous tip. The other major use for Good!Snape is to help Harry in the deciding moment of final confrontation, right? Doesn't the question of trust comes to play again? How likely it is that Harry is willing to put his trust into someone who killed his beloved mentor and who tormented him for several years. Say for example Harry or his friends are captured by DE and Snape is offering his help to orchestrate the escape. I personally doubt that any of them will listen to anything Snape offers. Hm, maybe Snape would offer Harry to use legilimency on him to prove that he is sincere in offering to help. Please, JKR? Let us see more what is in Snape's head. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 23 02:59:23 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:59:23 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138479 Betsy Hp: > So far I'm in agreement with Elyse. I do think Snape > knew what Voldemort had asked Draco to do, for a couple > of different reasons. First, Snape sounds like he's >already tried to talk Voldemort out of using Draco. > > "If you are imagining I can persuade the Dark Lord to > change his mind, I am afraid there is no hope, none > at all." (HBP scholastic > p.33) houyhnhnm: To me that passage just sounds like Snape is making sure that whatever game he ends up playing with Narcissa is not going to bind him to using influence with Voldemort. He *knows* better than to go that route. From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 03:00:00 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:00:00 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138480 Colebiancardi: So, without bringing Snape into the argument, what is so unbelievable about DD asking to die for the greater good of the Order? Alla: That is PRECISELY what is not believable to me. I believe that JKR hits us very strongly with " murder hurts the soul" metaphor and that is why it is not believable to me ( only my opinion of course) that "epitome of goodness" would ask anybody to hurt their soul for any purpose. The Barmaid now: I guess that depends on how you define murder. I could never equate killing someone who has asked you, maybe even ordered you, to do it -- someone who is most likely dieing anyway -- with the sort of cold blooded murders we know Tom Riddle has committed. How could these result in the same sort of damage to a soul? I honestly would not call what it seems to me Snape did "murder." AND even if it is "murder" I can not imagine that Snape's soul is not already seriously damaged -- whereas Draco, nasty piece of work that he is, has not yet committed murder, has not damaged his soul in this way -- may still have the chance to avoid such damage. DD would want to give Draco the chance to avoid that damage ? if he knows he must die at one or the other of their hands then Snape's it must be. -- The Barmaid (who actually is not sure about Snape, but is inclined at this point to see him as DD's man) From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 03:17:14 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:17:14 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138481 The Barmaid wrote: > > I guess that depends on how you define murder. I could never equate > killing someone who has asked you, maybe even ordered you, to do it -- > someone who is most likely dieing anyway -- with the sort of cold > blooded murders we know Tom Riddle has committed. zgirnius: I agree. The "DD would never ask Snape to murder him" posts have had me puzzled... The Barmaid again: >AND even if it > is "murder" if he knows he must die at one > or the other of their hands then Snape's it must be. zgirnius: Or maybe not even Draco. Suppose that Snape had acted as many Snape detractors suggest he ought to have, by fighting openly in defense of Dumbledore against the DEs. Maybe Draco then stays out of it, maybe Snape gets some help, maybe the UV waits long enough to kick in that Snape can take care of a few of the DEs before he dies, and Dumbledore is saved. What happens next? Well, perhaps DD then goes on to die of the poison Harry fed him in the cave. If Snape killing DD at DD's own request is a murder, logically, it follows that Harry in this scenario would have committed a murder himself. So under the hypothesis that such a killing is murder, DD may be looking at a choice between making Harry or Snape a murderer... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 03:24:38 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:24:38 -0000 Subject: horcrux = cloning? In-Reply-To: <430A2587.1070303@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138482 Fabian wrote: > I was thinking the other day when reading a post about the horcrux > diary Tom Riddle created. As I understood it, Voldemort could come back from someone writing in the diary, living on their feelings and finally come back to life to the cost of the life of the writer. Now, what if this happened after the end of book 4? Would there be two Voldemorts? Carol responds: I've wondered exactly the same thing since I first read CoS. JKR says on her site that Voldemort would have become a lot stronger, but I cn't help imagining an encounter--I alomost said a confrontation--between a revied Tom Riddle (Diary!Tom animated by Ginny's soul but with all his young wickedness and innate powers intact and Vapormort, at that point possibly possessing Nagini or some other animal. Without question, they would have recognized each other, but what would happen then? I think Vapormort would try to possess Tom to get himself a young handsome body, but would Revived!Tom allow it? Wouldn't he think that *he* was the real Voldemort and Vapormort was just a a disembodied partial soul that had been exploded out of its body? Or would he think he'd be stronger by welcoming another seventh of his soul into his body, a very corrupted soul that was guilty of many more murders than Tom (Diary!Tom is at Hogwarts when Moaning Myrtle's body is carried out; he has not yet murdered his parents. He even gives the date when he frames Hagrid; it's at the end of his fifth year). But even if Tom had already committed four murders, what's that compared with the hundreds that Voldemort is directly or indirectly responsible for murdering and torturing, most of them in VW1? So would a desire for power on that scale drive Revived!Tom to be possessed by himself without the hideousness of a his own transfigured face sticking out the back of his head? Anyone else have any ideas what would have happened if the diary plot had succeeded? Carol From ellcam at cox.net Tue Aug 23 01:11:06 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:11:06 -0400 Subject: Harry's House / Sectumsempra (was re: [several things]) References: <1124746198.1896.9345.m31@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001301c5a77f$8b3b4650$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138483 Matt said: > After Harry's understandable shock when he uses the curse on > Draco and sees what it does, I was suprised and dismayed to > see him try the same curse two more times: against the Inferi > and against Snape. I understand that Harry was in extremis on > both occasions, but even so, I was surprised at how completely > out of control he was. Will he need to moderate his emotions > before he faces Voldemort? Or is this just who he is? I was also dismayed by this act Matt, especially because he was so upset when he used it on Draco. I have felt the same way when Harry has tried to do UC. And his anger in OP was really out of control at times. Then I realized (and remembered) that Harry is a teenager and JKR has done a wonderful job of capturing the fits and starts of being a teenager by having Harry do things that are stupid and possibly dangerous. Teenagers follow their emotions (in general) without benefit of life experience to temper those emotions. IMO, Harry's emotions are what make him such an interesting character. Rachel From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 03:33:02 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:33:02 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138484 > zgirnius: > I agree. The "DD would never ask Snape to murder him" posts have had > me puzzled... Alla: Isn't it funny? To me the implication that Dumbledore WOULD ask anybody to kill him is puzzling :-) > zgirnius: > If Snape killing DD at DD's own request is a murder, logically, it > follows that Harry in this scenario would have committed a murder > himself. So under the hypothesis that such a killing is murder, DD > may be looking at a choice between making Harry or Snape a murderer... Alla: Sure, IF this hypothesis will turn out to be correct. But since to me we don't know neither that a. Dumbledore indeed asked Snape to kill him: b. that potion was a deadly poison . ( I am of the opinion that Dumbledore fully expected to get an antidote) Then I don't necessarily think that Dumbledore was facing such choice in the first place. I am indeed puzzled as to why many posters are so sure that Ambus was dying. If he indeed was dying wouldn't it be more logical for him to NOT come to Hogwarts and instead go and die somewhere while telling Harry - you promise to obey, my time had come for next great adventure, leave me , my boy, or something like that. If Albus indeed has no other choice and he was dying, I would think it is more logical way for him to protect Draco ( sort of performing suicide) Nope, I think that he needed Snape to heal him. Just me of course, Alla. From raganne at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 02:17:46 2005 From: raganne at gmail.com (bimbledor) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:17:46 -0000 Subject: Magical developments and queries - Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138485 Edis wrote: > OK so what magic have we had revealed in HBP? > > The obvious new spell is the Unbreakable Vow. How this actually > works we don't know. But is it a Dark Art? And what is > the effect of taking incompatible Vows? And what happens to the > other participant in the vow when one party fulfills? > > And what happens to the 'Bonder'? Are there consequences for > this witness when the act is carried out? bimbledor here: Concerning the Unbreakable Vow, IMO it has to be a Dark Arts spell. First, and most importantly, because the breaking of it causes death. Second, because of what Ron says about his dad's reaction. (p. 325-326 HBP U.S. edition:) <"An Unbreakable Vow?" said Ron, looking stunned. "Nah, he can't have....Are you sure?" "Yes, I'm sure," said Harry. "Why, what does it mean?" "Well, you can't break an Unbreakable Vow...." "I'd worked that much out for myself, funnily enough. What happens if you break it, then?" "You die," said Ron simply. "Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five. I nearly did too, I was holding hands with Fred and everything when Dad found us. He went mental," said Ron, with a reminiscent gleam in his eyes. "Only time I've ever seen Dad as angry as Mum.> But I too wonder about all the other implications, for the Bonder and the Vowee. Perhaps we'll find out in book 7. From raganne at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 02:32:06 2005 From: raganne at gmail.com (bimbledor) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:32:06 -0000 Subject: Various replies: Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138486 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > don't see how Molly's treatment of her was horrible. We saw > several times when Molly figuratively gritted her teeth, but we > never heard a cross word toward Fleur from her. And while Ginny > called her names behind her back, we didn't see Ginny or Hermione > say anything nasty in front of her, either. > > So who was the horrible person here? bimbledor here: Actually, I would have respected the women more if they had said something to Fleur's face. What they did was backstabbing gossip, and very much an "in-crowd" sort of behaviour. Not endearing! But human. From ellcam at cox.net Tue Aug 23 02:35:52 2005 From: ellcam at cox.net (Rachel Ellington) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:35:52 -0400 Subject: Redemptive Snape Message-ID: <000801c5a78b$61b51fc0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> No: HPFGUIDX 138487 In a JKR interview from 1999 Oct 12th, a comment is posed to her that Snape has a redemptive quality. JKR says she is stunned and the person should read Book 7 to see why she is so stunned. This may put a damper on the ESE! camp. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html Rachel From camckenzie at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 03:31:55 2005 From: camckenzie at yahoo.com (saxifrage_) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:31:55 -0000 Subject: About the books - I need help here please!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138488 > "Mary Anne Valdez" wrote: > want to ask your HONEST opinion about the book. Please let me know, > if this HBP is a must read. Thank you for your help.. The second chapter of HBP is a shocker - I literally gasped as I was reading it. The middle portions of the book were hot and cold. Actually, I enjoyed them a lot more when I read it for the second time and wasn't so anxious to find out what happens. I was able to slow down and enjoy the story more. The ending is also quite shocking. If you like the characters, I think you will enjoy seeing how they have grown and changed. For instance, the Twins behave much more like the adults they are becoming. Harry gains so much confidence in himself. He is not the whiny teen of book 5. -Cath From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 23 03:41:51 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:41:51 -0000 Subject: Narcissa the bait in the Unbreakable trap (Re: Did Snape have a choice or not?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138489 Betsy: > Despite Voldemort's not wanting anyone interfering with Draco (the > reason I think he shared the plan with Snape in the first place) > Snape is offering to interfere. He will try and help Draco. > (Could this be the opening gambit to wooing the Malfoy family over > to the Order's side? I wonder...) > > For some reason (and I really don't know why Narcissa goes in this > direction -- lack of trust?) Narcissa asks Snape to take the > Unbreakable Vow. Snape goes "blank" for a moment, madly calculating > his choices here, I would imagine, and then he decides to do it. Jen: I think Voldemort is behind the Unbreakable and Narcissa is the bait myself. She's a desperate woman, with her husband in jail and her only son being punished for the father's mistakes (sins of the father theme yet again?). So Narcissa plays her role, one Bella is completely unaware of, and reels Snape in hook, line and sinker. Notice how Bella is lured to go along to Spinner's End--convenient, huh? The DE most suspicious of Snape's behavior, the one most likely to cast doubt on him and make him prove himself. The clauses in that Unbreakable came out of Narcissa's mouth so rapidly and succintly, not much thinking going into those very important words. Almost like they were....rehearsed. What does she care if Snape goes down if it saves her own blood? People always bring up Snape and Lily, and maybe it's true, but Narcissa seems more like the kind of woman Snape would fall for. She's pure-blood, 'respectable', wealthy, a Malfoy Manor type of girl. This scene was interesting in a book fraught with the theme of obsessive love. We saw the trap of obsessive love close over Merope, seize Ron, and Slughorn called Amortentia the most 'dangerous' of all the potions he brewed. Obsessive love, unrequited love, perhaps love once freely given but taken away--it's possible one of these scenarios trapped Snape long before Narcissa came pleading to his door. Jen From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 03:43:08 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:43:08 -0000 Subject: Redemptive Snape In-Reply-To: <000801c5a78b$61b51fc0$6801a8c0@IBME69E742C294> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachel Ellington" wrote: > In a JKR interview from 1999 Oct 12th, a comment is posed to her that Snape has a redemptive quality. JKR says she is stunned and the person should read Book 7 to see why she is so stunned. This may put a damper on the ESE! camp. Though I'm not an ESE!Snape adherent, I could read JKR's comment either way. She may have been stunned that someone hit the mark so directly, perhaps by using the word "redemptive", or she may have been stunned that someone missed the mark so widely. Ersatz Harry From sunnylove0 at aol.com Tue Aug 23 03:55:58 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:55:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore?/ Snape... Message-ID: <212.76fefc1.303bf84e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138491 In a message dated 8/22/2005 8:48:33 PM Mountain Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: I am still not picturing clearly how post HBP Snape can be useful to the Order more than Dumbledore? And believe me, I DO want to understand the theory even the one I disagree with completely. But it is not the Order that matters anymore. Harry has already refused the Order's help by blowing off McGonagall. As Dumbledore said, it is *Harry* that matters now. Snape's spying days are done, but he has another talent, that of stabbing people in the back. Which, I imagine is what would happen in book 7, if Snape is headed for redemption. But Harry, terrible Occlumens that he is, better not have the slightest hope of such a thing in front of Voldemort or it's not going to happen. Alla again: The other major use for Good!Snape is to help Harry in the deciding moment of final confrontation, right? Doesn't the question of trust comes to play again? How likely it is that Harry is willing to put his trust into someone who killed his beloved mentor and who tormented him for several years. Say for example Harry or his friends are captured by DE and Snape is offering his help to orchestrate the escape. I personally doubt that any of them will listen to anything Snape offers. Amber: If it's between accepting Snape's help and remaining a prisoner where he can do nothing, he better accept Snape's help. Harry is perfectly capable of putting aside his anger where it's the right choice (saving Pettigrew in Book 3). That doesn't mean that he would forgive Snape or trust him further than he needed to. Or not demand accountability from him once Voldemort is out of the way. Because Voldemort and Harry are all that matters now. Everything else, including Snape, Dumbledore, and the Order, is a subplot until they affect one or the other or both. Even Dumbledore knew that in the cave. It's Harry that will drive Book 7. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 23 04:18:00 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 04:18:00 -0000 Subject: Love(able) Snape vrs Re: Redemptive Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138492 Rachel and Ersatz Harry were discussing a JKR quote and now, I'm not sure which one of them said which part of the section below: > > In a JKR interview from 1999 Oct 12th, a comment is posed to her > that Snape has a redemptive quality. JKR says she is stunned and the > person should read Book 7 to see why she is so stunned. This may put > a damper on the ESE! camp. > > Though I'm not an ESE!Snape adherent, I could read JKR's comment > either way. She may have been stunned that someone hit the mark so > directly, perhaps by using the word "redemptive", or she may have been > stunned that someone missed the mark so widely. Potioncat: Readers can go back upthread to Rachel's original post for the link, but here is the actual quote. I added the (interviewer) as the italics didn't copy: (Interviewer)One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. (Interviewer) There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. Potioncat again: I would just about wager real money that this is the most often discussed portion of any of JKR's quotes on this board. The question as orginally asked is about Snape falling in love. JKR reacts and the interviewer interjects a comment about Snape's redemptive nature. JKR is making those noises one makes when thinking, then, she continues to answer the question as it was asked: is Snape going to fall in love? At least, I take it to be answering the love question because JKR says: "I promise you, whoever asked that question..." Now it could be that she's stunned because Snape is so horrible it is just a terrible idea. Or it could be that yes, Snape has/will be in love. And I would even bet more money that if anyone should ask her about this bit of an interview, she wouldn't recall it at all, nor be able to say why she reacted so strongly. In fact, I wondered why she was so quick to react like this in the one interview, but so calmly state that Snape had been loved in the July 2005 interview. (I know of course, that having been loved, and being in love are not the same.) Potioncat, apololgizing for not attributing the posts properly, but would lose everything if she went back to sort it out. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 04:24:06 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 04:24:06 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138493 Alla wrote: > Nope, I think that he needed Snape to heal him. > > Just me of course, > > Alla. zgirnius: I did not address this in my post, but I have an opinion which was implicit in the scenario I described. (I suspect this opinion in some form was expressed in Severely Sigune's excellent Snape post...) As I see it, the potion in the cave is something Dark and dangerous like the curse of the ring, not just a (relatively) simple matter of making an antidote. So I agree, DD was expecting Snape to heal him, with his expertise in both DA/DADA and Potions. Only, if Snape is dead from breaking the UV or fallen in battle with several DEs, he is no longer available. If like the ring curse it requires relatively quick action to counter, death for DD seems a likely outcome. Of course, you are right that we do not know how dangerous the potion and its effects were, how timely an intervention was required to save DD, or how widespread the knowledge to heal the damage is. I feel that at this point the data we have are insufficient to give a complete explanation of all the actions and observed facts presented, so we all need to make some reasonable-seeming assumptions to come up with coherent theries. To me, the idea that the potion is of sufficient lethality to require very timely intervention, by Snape, seems reasonable given we are told by DD himself that such was necessary in the case of the Ring Horcrux. If it turns out to be some Potion Sluggie could whip up an antidote for in no time, I will not have difficulty accepting that Snape killed DD solely to save himself. (Or even, if other ambiguities are clarified in ways that support such a theory to my mind, that Snape killed DD out of loyalty to LV/the DEs.) I would not imagine that DD would want Snape to kill him merely to get Snape closer to LV, that does seem a bit much. But I can definitely see the events of the Cave and the Tower putting DD in a corner where that starts to seem the best way out of a disastrous situation. I am not in the DD told Snape to kill him before Snape ever took the UV camp...More likely, I would guess that Snape saw the options available and the likely consequences, and had concluded the best option (in the sabe that is saves the most lives/souls and removes a considerable danger for Hogwarts quickly) would be to kill DD and clear out with the DEs, and DD legilimensed this in the moments they gazed at each other after DD said "Severus". Then the follow up "Severus, please" would have been to confirm to Snape that DD agreed with this analysis of the situation. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 04:35:08 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 04:35:08 -0000 Subject: "Seeing" the Invisible In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138494 > Greg > From both the trip to the cave, and the little we know about > Dumbledore's trip to the Gaunt house, both of Voldemort's Horcruxes > were at least partially hidden from sight. This means two things. > Number one, Voldemort is likely to be another person who can "see the > invisible", and 2 Harry's going to need to be able to do the same to > find the remaining hidden Horcruxes. But where's he going to learn > that? > Chys: I'm not certain about the see the invisible part, but have you read the book fantastic beasts? There's a Demiguise in it. Its hair is used to make invisibility cloaks and specialists can see it. Perhaps they can see through invisibility cloaks as well? This still doesn't explain the cave but in the book I thought it was explained that he could sense the magic in it. Chys From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 04:42:38 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 04:42:38 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138495 Alla wrote: > As others suggested, the fact that all Order Members turned out on > him REALLY fast makes it very hard for Snape to pass the information > to the Order. Carol responds: Sorry for the ruthless snipping, Alla, but I also noticed the very swift turning against Snape--suspiciously fast, in fact, almost as if it were planned and they were in on some secret that they were keeping from Harry, as if they were acting. Slughorn (not an Order member) was the only one to have anything like a natural reaction. ("I taught him. I thought I knew him.") The rest, even Lupin, who has always attempted to be reasonable and fair about Snape ("I neither like nor dislike Severus but he made the wolfbane potion and he made it perfectly") suddenly acts as if he's known or suspected all along that Snape was never loyal to Dumbledore. McGonagall does the same thing, essentially, "Well, what do you expect, with his background?" And yet she taught young Severus Snape for seven years, worked with him as a fellow teacher and fellow Head of House for fifteen years, worked with him to help expose Barty Crouch, followed his lead in exposing Lockhart, on and on. All of their conversations in the books have been civil, almost friendly. And yet, in marked contrast to Hagrid, who protests that Harry is mistaken about Snape until he actually sees Dumbledore's body, she immediately starts making excuses for why she trusted Snape (Dumbledore always said he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape). And when Harry gives the supposed reason, worded rather differently from Dumbledore's version (which is still quite possibly not the real or complete reason), they immediately see Dumbledore as something very like what Draco calls "You stupid old man." On the whole, they're acting exactly like the villagers in "The Riddle House" in GoF: "I always knew that Frank Bryce couldn't be trusted." What exactly is going on here? Why would they turn so quickly against a fellow Order member whom Dumbledore trusted so implicitly? Not one of them seems to think that there might be more to it, that Snape might have been trapped into comiting murder or that he might have been protecting Draco. They all assume the worst: premeditated murder and treason. It's just too quick. They should question it as Hagrid did and remember things about Snape that make them question this abrupt change from extremely cunning spy or double agent to DE murderer. Not one of them seems to see that such a move is completely out of character for Snape, who never gives away his position--and who works, always, through words instead of actions (even as he parries Harry's curses in a scene they don't know about). I don't like it. It makes me wonder if Lupin turned against Sirius Black equally quickly when fifty witnesses testified that they saw him commit murder. I'm not concerned here with the complex question of Snape's motives and the degree to which he's guilty. I just don't understand this unnatural reaction on the part of everyone except Hagrid and Slughorn. Don't they know that the natural first response when a colleague is accused of murder is "It can't be true!"? Maybe some of them know more than they're telling Harry. Or maybe JKR is setting them up for a surprise when their facile acceptance of Harry's Evil!Snape story turns out to have been at least partially unfounded. Maybe, it's only an indication that no one in the Order trusts Snape, and, as Alla points out, he's going to have a very hard time passing them the information he will certainly be in a position to collect. Or maybe it's just to show that nobody trusts him, period. We've already seen Bellatrix's doubts, which stand in for those of Voldemort and the DEs who whisper behind Snape's back. We've also seen Draco's for what they're worth. The first two suspect (with some justification) that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore; Draco (being a bit confused in his priorities and not the best judge of people) thinks that Snape is after his "glory." Snape, of course, is now in a position to (seemingly) prove Bellatrix wrong. But if we look closely at "Spinner's End," we can see that Snape is carefully deceiving her in several important regards or telling a convenient truth ("I'm not the Secret Keeper") that may conceal the real truth (I wouldn't tell you if I could). But I'm getting offtrack, sorry! I want to know if there's more to the mass rejection of Snape by his fellow Order members than meets the eye. Can they really suddenly think that he's always been evil after all the risks he's taken for the Order? Is there more to this scene, which strikes me as a false note in the narrative, than just a shared mistrust of Snape by both sides and a very bad position for Snape if he wants to continue working with the Order? Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? Carol, hoping that Lupin will somehow learn about the Unbreakable Vow and realize what would have happened to Dumbledore, Draco, and possibly Harry if Snape had died From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 04:44:26 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 04:44:26 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138496 All the Snape posts...one question keeps pecking the back of my brain pan. What would Snape have to do to redeem himself? Now in my book it's nothing. He's responsible for the deaths of Lilly and James Potter. He's even responsible for Harry being the chosen one. He's cruel to Neville, Hermione and Harry. He's responsible for the fate of Neville's parents. He made an unbreakable vow to ensure DD was killed. (or that Harry would be killed in some theories) He let slip that Lupin was a werewolf. He let slip that Sirius was an animagus. (causing him to be an absolute prisoner in OOP--and please note that as rash, angry and irritable as Sirius became he still never revealed that Snape was a "double spy" or even that he was a DE.) He states he passed the information to have Vance killed. He joined the DE's of his own accord, he didn't back out right away either(he "left" for completely different reasons than Regulus Black for example). With this much blood, heartache and sorrow....how can he possibly redeem himself?!?!? DD gave him a chance, and in my opinion, Snape failed miserably..(as a teacher, mentor and colleague) If Snape can dupe Voldemort...why not DD?!?!? Did/has Snape ever truly duped either one?(I maybe have some sympathy for him if he hasn't---but sympathy doesn't mean I believe he's redeemed.) Evil/Not Evil/Entirely Selfish....I still don't see redemtion in him. Realization of one's mistake doesn't mean redemption...attempting to right a wrong may lead to redemption...but in my opinion Snape simply has too many wrongs to right in one book. He'd have to do more than help or even save Harry in my mind's eye. He's like an over-grown bat....IOW a rodent/rat with wings.. Doddie (Who really doesn't think that James, Sirius, Lupin(who did allow his mates to tease Snape), Harry, Ron, McConnagal, Hagrid, Hermione, Neville, all had incorrect "gut" instincts---they trusted Snape at one time or another because of DD...I also really don't think Bella's gut is wrong either....Snape states that the DL trusts him...but she doesn't believe it...and we know that Voldemort trusts no one completely--and who really doesn't understand why so many loathe PP but not Snape?!?!) From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 05:03:18 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:03:18 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138497 "Jessica Bathurst" wrote: > However, if someone (like Snape!) was in good > with Voldemort and could assist at a > crucial moment, that person would be > placed for maximum effect. Ok, fine, but why did Dumbledore have to die, Snape was already in good with Voldemort? And why did Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to Murder Dumbledore months before he actually did it? It all makes no sense if Snape is good, it makes perfect sense if Snape is evil. > At this point, Snape would be practically > undetectable as a secret weapon, since > every one of the Phoenix members distrusts him. Voldemort is going to start distrusting Snape too. Tyrants are always on the lookout for rivals and who better fits that role than the man who killed the most powerful wizard in the world? Voldemort is not going to be happy when he hears people say Snape killed Dumbledore and not the Dark Lord. > Snape can handily defeat Harry without > hurting him, so I don't think there's > much of a battle to be fought there. I am certain Dumbledore would not be so caviler in dismissing Harry's abilities, with the exception of Snape the other Death Eaters seemed no match for Harry, and Voldemort personally tried to kill him 5 times and failed 5 times; nobody is that lucky he must have something on the ball. And Dumbledore must have known that even if Harry defeats Voldemort and survives he won't be able to get on with his life until he hunts down Snape. If Snape is really a good guy then Dumbledore has played a very very nasty trick on both of them by keeping Harry in the dark. > After all, what's the other alternative? Kill the other Death Eaters and tell Voldemort that Dumbledore had done it, Snape was far more powerful than his Death Eater pals and he had the element of surprise. Eggplant From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 23 05:13:59 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:13:59 -0000 Subject: DD's definitely dead?(Snape's remark) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138498 strawberryshaunie >>I know this has been discussed before, and the actual quote is still open to interpretation, but Snape actually said "a stopper IN death". This makes a huge difference, because it means Snape's talking about bottling poison, not an antidote. "Stopper" means cork or lid, meaninghe could teach anyone with enough competence to make and cork death in a bottle. "CathyD: The actual quote is "bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death --" (PS 102 Can Ed) At least that is the quote in both my versions." Ooops! Thank you very much Cathy...I've just realized where I got my seemingly accurate quote: the PS movie, during Snape's little monologue of course. He does, in fact say "stopper in death" in the movie, and although this isn't quite canon, I will argue that I am clearly not the only one familiar with the term "stopper" meaning cork in Brit. Even the textual quote you provide "even stopper death" makes much more sense if viewed in this light ("stopper" isn't terribly gramatically correct if it's supposed to mean "prevent/impede". In other words, 'stopper' definitely = cork, it is actually a NOUN/transitive verb, not a verb!). It may seem a little picky, but I really do feel that this shows something about Snape's character...it is after all the first time we get to hear him talk about how he views magic and those who perform it. It seems to me that Snape's far more interested in death than in preventing it (though I really don't believe he is ESE!, not just yet). And what about those other two? Bottle *fame*, brew *glory*...a bit more evidence for TW intentions? -shaunie, really hoping this makes at least a little sense. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 05:14:11 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:14:11 -0000 Subject: A Somewhat Pollyanna-ish Look at Dumbledore's Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138499 I keep reading everyone else's ideas and then turning around and interpreting the tower scene in a way that means nothing I've seen posted quite nailed it. (I'm pretty sure I'm not poaching; apologies if so (and kudos, as I love this take on events).) Otherwise, I'm just being deliberately, insanely na?ve on this subject. What if, rather than murder, euthanasia, reanimation-of-already-dead Dumbledore, suicide, or anything else in that vein, what we see is Dumbledore using all of his considerable power to keep himself just on this side of alive?-UNTIL he is in free fall? (It seems to me that Dumbledore has forcibly rallied several times already and may have to do nothing other than release his stranglehold on the last of his life force in order to be gone.) I don't consider it beyond the realm of possibility that Snape's "AK" on top of the tower was nothing more than the WW equivalent of special effects, and that Dumbledore actually did the levitating, etc., himself. Look at it this way: the time Dumbledore spent talking with Draco has moved him past the "window of opportunity" for efficacious treatment, and he knows it. So Dumbledore pleads with Snape via Legilimency to help him to make the inevitable serve the greater good with a bit of theatre. (Snape's expression of hatred and revulsion could be attributed to many things, including finally finding himself in a role he is unable to play with aplomb.) This would let Harry and Draco both off the hook for their parts in Dumbledore's demise (from their perspectives, and a very Dumbledore-ian thing to do, IMO) as well as cementing Snape's position with the DE and possibly making Voldemort happy enough with the outcome to refrain from killing Draco or rubbing Snape's nose in his own initiative. The terms of the Unbreakable Vow may be satisfied because Snape "kills" Dumbledore by doing the thing which will enable him to feel he can turn loose of the last little bit of life remaining to him. (This is the weakest part of my theory; so I'm leaning towards Snape's having engineered a hollow Unbreakable Vow that really wasn't, but had to be acted out to maintain his cover.) Am I original, naive, or hopelessly deluded? Two out of three? Sandy aka msbeadsley, who, although she needs to finish re-reading OoP and then get through HBP a third time, is almost caught up with posts instead From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 05:21:58 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:21:58 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138500 "lupinlore" wrote: > Why didn't DD visit Sirius and use Legilemency? And Dumbledore could have testified at Sirius's trial, but no, that won't work, he had no trial. Dumbledore probably had no authority to even visit Sirius in prison much less release him, and the Ministry certainly wasn't going to; a dozen people were murdered and they needed somebody to blame and Sirius fit the bill. Eggplant From lebowjessica at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 03:54:29 2005 From: lebowjessica at yahoo.com (lebowjessica) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:54:29 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S SCAR IS NOT A HORCRUX Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138501 I don't believe that Harry's scar is a Horcrux, as many believe or a remnant of the backfired AK curse. I think as we will find out in Book 7 that Lily Potter was far more clever than has been revealed until now , we hear glimpses and bits and pieces of her expertise in charms and potions, and I believe through her knowledge of charms is what created Harry's scar and continues to guide and protect him. JKR has said that this type of sacrifice was never made in the WW and LV and DD said that Lily used a powerful and ancient magic that LV did not know of or had forgotten, this is also why I think it is significant of the color of Harry's eyes the green also represents a very powerful "ancient" magic ruled by charms. I know that this may have been briefly touched on before but I have been thinking about it more and more since I just returned from a business trip to Germany, I was reading about the Sowilo Runes, which look to me like a vertical lightening bolt, I was even more intrigued when I read about its symbolisms and meanings. The Sowilo symbol is the Sun, it is a charm that is cast upon something of great importance, the bearer of this "charm" will achieve great success, honor,health, goals will be achieved at a time when power is available for positive change and victory. The Sowilo rune is the connection between your higher self and your unconscious. It is known Nordic oral tradition as "the sword of flame and a cleansing fire". I think thatis why LV,could not touch him in PS/SS, and part of why DD created the blood protection charm until Harry would come of age, he needed this extra protection so he could "learn and develop" himself to release his hidden power. The key to Harry's success in defeating LV and why he is the "chosen one" is the scar, it may be corny but like the quote from the Wiz of Oz, "he has always had the power", he just needs to "choose or accept it" and I think that is what we see at the end of Book 6, Harry accepts his fate, and I think that he will develop the powers he needs to defeat LV, find the hidden Horcrux' s with a "little" help from his mother. TTFA JESSIE From medea_09 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 05:01:49 2005 From: medea_09 at hotmail.com (princess_kat0907) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:01:49 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore?/ Snape... In-Reply-To: <212.76fefc1.303bf84e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138502 The time has come, finally, for me to stop voyeristically lurking in the shadows of this message board, and finally put in my two-cents- worth, even if my thoughts are as deep as a half-inch mud puddle. This whole Snape is evil, Dumbledore is foolish, yadda yadda yadda thing is really playing on my mind. I want Snape to be good. Why? Because I don't want Dumbledore to have died 'like that' and I trust Dumbledore (who, I have to keep reminding myself, is a fictional character) so completely that I want Snape to be everything Dumbledore believed him to be. It all comes back to one point, however, and that point is: It doesn't matter if Snape is good or evil, because Harry hates him no matter what. Well, say some, Harry is quite able to put his anger aside - look at his treatment of Pettigrew in Azkaban? My point is this - Harry hates Voldemort so much because HE KILLED HIS PARENTS. The physical act was committed RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. Who cares how Voldemort was able to get the information he needed in order to commit the murder (Pettigrew/Snape/etc), the Physical Act of Murder was committed by Voldemort. I believe that right up until Snape's murder (intentional, accidental, pre-meditated, watever) of Dumbledore, Harry was willing to trust Dumbledore's belief in Snape. I think that on arriving back at the tower, Harry would have rushed off to Snape's bedroom, awoken him, and sought his help in curing Dumbledore, NO MATTER HOW MUCH HE HATED HIM. Yes, Harry hated Snape, but Dumbledore trusted him, so Harry was willing to put his faith in that. When Snape kills Dumbledore right in front of Harry, any illusions (either right or wrong) about Snape's evilness went out the window. In Harry's eyes, Snape killed Dumbledore, in the exact same way his parents were killed, physically, wand-to-chest, Avada Kedavra, bang, all over. I think that Harry's level of hatred for Snape (which is on par with his hatred for Voldemort because of the physical reality of their murders) will stop him seeking Snape's help. Face Death by Voldemort or Safety from Snape? Harry's gonna pick the death option. I don't think there's anything that can cure the anonymity between the two - Rowling has spent 6 books setting it up - it's there for a reason. Now that I have said all that, I am completely willing to be proven wrong, in fact, I would enjoy it...I am so easily swayed! Thank you all for being such an incredibly interesting group of people to hear/read... -Princess Kat (who goes back to her voyerism with a sense of completeness) From marilynpeake at cs.com Tue Aug 23 05:40:48 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:40:48 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > I also noticed the very swift turning against Snape--suspiciously fast, in fact, almost as if it were planned and they were in on some secret that they were keeping from Harry > > What exactly is going on here? Why would they turn so quickly against a fellow Order member whom Dumbledore trusted so implicitly? Marilyn responds: I think there are two main reasons, in real life, why a person might distrust someone like Snape: He belonged to the Death Eaters at one time, and he abuses students who he dislikes for personal reasons. I'm guessing that some of the Hogwarts staff have accepted, but wondered about, Snape for quite a long time. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ "The Golden Goblet" Newsletter, now available at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marilynpeake From medea_09 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 05:12:12 2005 From: medea_09 at hotmail.com (princess_kat0907) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:12:12 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > What would Snape have to do to redeem himself? (snip) > Now in my book it's nothing. (snip) > If Snape can dupe Voldemort...why not DD?!?!? (snip) EXACTLY!! I think Snape is playing both sides. He likes the biggest bully in the playground...Voldemort is on top, but the Order defeated him once before... Dumbledore trusts Snape - and I'm sure he has good reason. Voldemort trusts Snape - with good reasons too. Snape is all about courage (as we see in the end of HBP), and what is more courageous (or stupid) than playing the middle-man between the most evil wizard in the world, and the boy who could destroy him. Personally, I think Snape is a little annoyed that he hates Harry so much. And he does. With (perhaps a little silly) reason. If he didn't hate Harry (because of James - remember, the Harry-Voldemort thing wasn't an issue when James and Severus were jinxing each other in the hallways) then he could play the part of the double spy even better. Imagine how much power he'd have if Harry called him Uncle Sev? I think this is one reason (among many, most of which are incompletet) Rowling has created the Harry vs Snape hatred... A loveable Snape would have too much power, especially over our hero (and who wants that?!) We don't want to be betrayed by the good guys... something that has never happened in the Harry Potter world to date... -Princess Kat (woops, two contributions in the same day? My anonymity just waltzed out the window...) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Aug 23 05:45:34 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:45:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who taught DADA before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <642989352.20050822224534@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138505 Saturday, August 20, 2005, 9:10:07 PM, ag0991 wrote: a> So, maybe Voldemort lifted his own curse on the DADA job to a> give his servant more than one year to do his dirty work at Hogwarts. a> Assuming, of course that he was in Voldemort's employ when he was a> firsthired at Hogwarts. I always assumed he was already a teacher, based on this bit: "Oh, he seemed the very chance I had been dreaming of... for he was [as opposed to *would be*] a teacher at Dumbledore's school..." -- Voldemort's graveyard speech, _GoF_. Of course, maybe he was teaching *something else* before Voldemort recruited him -- CoMC maybe? (I always wondered why they show him holding a large Iguana in class in that scene in the first movie.) -- Dave P.S. Just had an afterthought: If the original "Plan A" was to steal the Stone from Gringotts, then it doesn't matter whether Quirrell was already a Hogwarts teacher or not... But then, does that render the above quote a Flint? From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 23 06:02:04 2005 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:02:04 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing ( was Re: It's over, Snape is evil ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138506 Eleanor > Actually, what I see is that Voldemort had problems feeling empathy, > probably slightly autistic in nature. >'I think you are thinking of psychopaths/ sociapaths... Autism is very different. Most autistic children are very affectionate and caring, only their awareness of the complexity of other people's emotions is limited. Once alerted to the fact that their actions were hurting others they would be likely to be mortified. What they lack is the automatic ability to see the point of view of others. Voldemort doesn't give a monkeys about the point of view of others, but he doe shave the understanding, which is how come he can manipulate people so easily. Rebecca' (lots and lots of snipping!) I definitely agree with the sociopath idea, and I actually came across an interesting link as I was searching for more info about Snape vs. Machiavelli's Prince that, wierdly enough, mentions autism! (It explains, in less words, exactly what Rebecca has stated above, that autism is far from what would be comparable to LV and Snape's psychologies): Machiavellian intelligence (political intelligence or social intelligence), is the capacity of an entity in successful political engagement with social groups. The term refers to Niccol? Machiavelli's 'The Prince' and the hypothesis that the techniques which lead to certain kinds of political success within large social groups are also applicable within smaller groups, even within the family-unit. Such behaviors include: * making alliances * making and breaking promises * making and breaking rules * lying and truth-telling * blaming and forgiveness * misleading and misdirection Autism Some theorists believe that autistic people lack Machiavellian intelligence. One hypothesis is that they lack a "theory of mind" which is necessary for both cooperation and deceit. here's the actual link for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellian_intelligenc From kjones at telus.net Tue Aug 23 06:26:12 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:26:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <20050822143837.82650.qmail@web60411.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050822143837.82650.qmail@web60411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <430AC184.8000400@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138507 > Larry now: > > "Last gamble..." Wow is that different, or for that > matter more justifiable than the placing of a spy? > > "Risk everything..." Seems a euphamism for do > anything. See posts138237 and 138321. Dumbledore is > not a Dark Lord, rolling the dice with the souls of > others. Larry Kathy writes: "And yet, knowing how important it was that *my plan* should succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this flaw to ruin it." and another "I care more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than *my plan*, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the *plan* failed". and another "What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now, you were alive, and well, and happy. To my way of thinking, he is rolling a few souls here. Plus talking Flamels into destroying the stone so V can't get it, causing their deaths. I am not saying that Dumbledore is evil, just dedicated to a purpose. Really dedicated. Still dedicated. KJ > Larry now: > > Anyone of good conscience would feel guilt and sorrow > by asking others to place themselves in danger. You > seem below to be making a case that Dumbledore is not > so "nice", what ever that means. But aren't his pangs > of conscience proof of goodness? Voldemort feels no > such thing for those he places in danger. Larry Kathy writes: What is worse, to feel guilt and sorrow and do it anyway, or not have a clue that you are doing anything bad? KJ > Larry > What master plan? Read original post again, 138106, > and see below. Larry Kathy writes: See first point above. > Larry now: > Maybe some can correct me here, but Lupin's physical > weakness stems from his use of the potion. The other > werewolf we have seen, Fenrir Greyback, does not seem > lacking in vigor. Without the potion, I see no reason > for Lupin being unqualified for the job. Larry Kathy writes: Pg312 HBP "But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to *suffer* as I usually do at the full moon". and another "He kept me healthy." and another Pg 309 HBP Meanwhile Remus Lupin, who was thinner and more ragged-looking than ever.... KJ > Larry now: > In any case, Dumbledore knew of the various > explainations Snape would give Voldemort, and knew > them to be reasonable, hence the risk to Snape was > also reasonable. Larry Kathy writes: A little Crucio never hurt anyone. You any relation to Dumbledore? > Larry now: > > What you take for lack of trust is really evidence > that there is no master plan. Dumbledore was merely > fighting a holding action, buying time until Harry was > ready to do what only Harry could do. > > There is not the slightest shred of evidence that > Dumbledore was orchestrating some procession to final > victory. In fact, the section of The Prephecy that > implies Harry is the one how can defeat the Dark Lord > is never contradicted by Dumbledore. snip > I have no sense that Dumbledore planned a series of > enveloping moves, leading to inevitable check mate. He > was training his warrior, and when that training was > complete would send him out to combat and hope for the > best. HBP Am. ed. P.197-198: > "Sir," said Harry tentativly, "does what you're going > to tell me have anything to do with the prophecy? Will > it help me...survive?" > > "It has a very great deal to do with the prophecy," > said Dumbledore, as casually as if Harry had asked him > about the next day's weather, "and I certainly hope > that it will help you to survive." > Larry Kathy writes: That Dumbledore had a plan and was orchestrating it is canon. Notice how he does not make Harry any false promises here. He is also using Harry, which in all honesty he has made plain to Harry, sort of. KJ From momy424 at aol.com Tue Aug 23 06:57:16 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (Shannon) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:57:16 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138508 > But I'm getting offtrack, sorry! I want to know if there's more to the > mass rejection of Snape by his fellow Order members than meets the > eye. Can they really suddenly think that he's always been evil after > all the risks he's taken for the Order? Is there more to this scene, > which strikes me as a false note in the narrative, than just a shared > mistrust of Snape by both sides and a very bad position for Snape if > he wants to continue working with the Order? > > Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that > McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? > > Carol, hoping that Lupin will somehow learn about the Unbreakable Vow > and realize what would have happened to Dumbledore, Draco, and > possibly Harry if Snape had died Momy424 responds: I would have to think that the shock would be more than enough reason for them to react as they did. Think about it, Dumbledore, who is touted as the Greatest Wizard of his time has just been ruthlessly murdered by one of his own teachers, one that everyone must have at one time or another had some misgivings about and has fled the scene with other DE's and a student who had been "seemingly" about to commit the very same murder. I am not sure anyone's reaction would have been to keep defending Snape under these circumstances. As for the other comment about Lupin automatically thinking Sirius guilty of the murder of Pettigrew and the cause for Lily and James' death's, even Dumbledore pointed out he believed him guilty at the time cause he was the only one known to be the secret keeper so of course from all accounts who would believe otherwise, and of course three of your best friends are dead and their son scarred and in hiding, how can that trauma not make you feel doubt over the innocense of someone wiht a family past of being on the dark side? I have re-read the book over and over and I felt nothing but pity and sorrow for them all in the momnets when Harry tells them of Dumbledore's death, cause in Jo's writing I could feel the anguish and the shock to have lost a friend and to some a father figure. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Aug 23 07:37:51 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:37:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Next Head Boy and Head Girl Message-ID: <15b.578baaed.303c2c4f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138509 In a message dated 8/18/2005 4:14:01 PM Central Standard Time, EvilNuff at yahoo.com writes: Allie wrote: > Hermione's a shoe-in, but I doubt it will be Harry. Who are the other 7th years? I suspect it will be Ron. All of the things that Ron saw in the mirror in the first book will come true, Head Boy, captain of the Quidditch team and winning the House Cup. -David I suspect that this is a moot point because I really believe that Jo's intentions were/are that 6th year is their last year at Hogwarts. I will admit waiting until the 7th book in a 7 book series seems awfully late to start a quest though. However other HB nominees would be: Gryffindor: Seamus Finnegan, Dean Thomas, Neville Longbottom, Ravenclaw: Terry Boot, Hufflepuff: Justin Finch-Fletchley, Ernie McMillian, Slytherin: Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle, Theodore Nott, Blaise Zambini. Funny but I can't think of any other Ravenclaw boys in the Trio's year. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 07:53:27 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:53:27 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princess_kat0907" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" snip > EXACTLY!! > big snip I completely understand where you are coming from....but not the snape--hopers--supporters > > -Princess Kat (woops, two contributions in the same day? My anonymity > just waltzed out the window...) I still have no idea who you are! LOL most of my posts get no reponses at all--- simply confirmation of course that most times I'm a raving lunatic... I simply do not see beyond obvious that snape will do a "fawkes" (which I do not see happening) why most folks insist on seeing the light in snape and glory in his gray...and fail to see the black dark shadows...or even atleast acknoledge them! Doddie, (who still has trouble fathoming why so many folk see Snape as good...rather than bad...and at the very least grey...why do they refuse to at least walk the middle line?) From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 08:09:11 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:09:11 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S SCAR IS NOT A HORCRUX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lebowjessica" wrote: > I don't believe that Harry's scar is a Horcrux, as many > believe or a remnant of the backfired AK curse. I think as we will find out in Book 7 that Lily Potter was far more clever than has been revealed until now , we hear glimpses and bits and pieces of her expertise in charms and potions, and I believe through her knowledge of charms is what created Harry's scar and continues to guide and protect him. doddie here: I disagree and agree....what if Lilly charmed the last of GG's last remaining heirlooms.... What if Voldemort went to GG's hollow to create his last horcrux.... How fitting that snape did all the spells necessary to create a horcrux yet the only thing lilly didn't charm but protect was harry??? > > JKR has said that this type of sacrifice was never made in the WW doddie here: well I don't know that she said that...seldom perhaps. doddie gone.. > LV and DD said that Lily used a powerful and ancient magic that LV > did not know of or had forgotten, this is also why I think it is > significant of the color of Harry's eyes the green also > represents a very powerful "ancient" magic ruled by charms. Doddie here: I'm thinking that the potions book in HBP may reveal something about horcruxes....and Lily may have seen it.. doddie gone... Harry has chose and accepted for quite some time now...so I do not disagree with your postulations...you just have to make your assumptions more meticulous throughout the series...(don't know if you can or not)....tee hee canor not...cannon or not... Doddie, (who wonders if Lily pretended to be close to snape to understand him better) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 23 08:08:56 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:08:56 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: <15b.578baaed.303c2c4f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138512 Melissa: > > However other HB nominees would be: Gryffindor: Seamus Finnegan, Dean > Thomas, Neville Longbottom, Ravenclaw: Terry Boot, Hufflepuff: Justin > Finch-Fletchley, Ernie McMillian, Slytherin: Vincent Crabbe, Gregory Goyle, Theodore Nott, > Blaise Zambini. > > Funny but I can't think of any other Ravenclaw boys in the Trio's year. > Hickengruendler: There are also Michael Corner and Anthony Goldstein. Anthony for sure is in the Trio's year, since he was the Ravenclaw Prefect together with Padma Patil, and Michael is friend with Terry and Anthony, therefore it seems likely, that he's from the same year as well. Anyway, I agree with the part of your post that I snipped, namely that the Trio won't go to Hogwarts in book 7 (at least not as students). Otherwise the whole set-up at the end of HBP would be pretty useless, and there is more than enough to do in book 7 anything, therefore I think it's a wise decision from JKR to leave out the school routine. That means Hermione probably won't become Headgirl. I find this quite remarkable from her, to give up the post she fairly certain would have got, to help Harry. I can't see Lavender becoming one nor Hannah Abbott nor Millicent or Pansy. The Patils were taken from school and it's highly unsure if they will return. That pretty much leaves Susan Bones and a few girls like Mandy Brocklehurst, Sally-Ann Perks or Daphne Greengrass, who were hardly ever mentioned. I think the most likely candidate for Headboy is Ernie Macmillan. Hickengruendler From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 10:29:18 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:29:18 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138513 > Carol responds: > Sorry for the ruthless snipping, Alla, but I also noticed the very > swift turning against Snape--suspiciously fast, in fact, almost as if > it were planned and they were in on some secret that they were keeping > from Harry, as if they were acting. Slughorn (not an Order member) was > the only one to have anything like a natural reaction. ("I taught him. > I thought I knew him.") > > The rest, even Lupin, who has always attempted to be reasonable and > fair about Snape ("I neither like nor dislike Severus but he made the > wolfbane potion and he made it perfectly") suddenly acts as if he's > known or suspected all along that Snape was never loyal to Dumbledore. > McGonagall does the same thing, essentially, "Well, what do you > expect, with his background?" And yet she taught young Severus Snape > for seven years, worked with him as a fellow teacher and fellow Head > of House for fifteen years, worked with him to help expose Barty > Crouch, followed his lead in exposing Lockhart, on and on. All of > their conversations in the books have been civil, almost friendly. > > And yet, in marked contrast to Hagrid, who protests that Harry is > mistaken about Snape until he actually sees Dumbledore's body, she > immediately starts making excuses for why she trusted Snape > (Dumbledore always said he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape). *(snip)* > Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that > McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? > > Carol, hoping that Lupin will somehow learn about the Unbreakable Vow > and realize what would have happened to Dumbledore, Draco, and > possibly Harry if Snape had died Ceridwen: Yes, I did notice the sudden turning. No one other than Hagrid protested, until the scene with the Heads of House meeting in the office when Slughorn is trying to get a handle on what happened. Maybe some people would behave that way, especially when they've primed themselves to have suspicions of someone. But to some, at least, this would attack their own core, that they went along with the act, and they would question the information first. I panic. I would probably have kept going back to 'He's dead? I can't believe it!' interspersed with 'Severus? But... After all this time?' and several variations. I know this, when a friend told me her SO was dead suddenly, I made the poor thing repeat it three times before it even started to sink in. And I had no vested interest in him. I guess I would have reacted more like Slughorn, only without the certainty. Yes, I do think the reactions were planted on purpose. After reading through some of the JKR interviews, though, I'm not sure what to make of it. This is book 6 in a series of seven, and things have to be resolved quickly. This could be an authorial set-up to show that yes, he really was evil after all; it could be a set-up to wipe their faces in crow come next book; it could just be a set-up partially as Alla suggested, even if he's ESG! it's useless, he becomes Cassandra and no one believes his information. It could be to show that even the 'white hats' make amazingly stupid mistakes (the UV), and that the smarter a character is, the correspondingly more spectacular the mistake... Which gets me thinking. Dumbledore was, at least IMO, uncharacteristically patting himself on the back for being such a smart person during portions of the book. Could he have been paralelling (sp?) Snape's predicament? A smart guy who got himself into a correspondingly more horrible situation due to, perhaps, thinking he could slick out of it, before the third stipulation hit? Somehow, Dumbledore never quite struck me as a man who would play his own horn to such an extent. Ceridwen. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 11:21:16 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:21:16 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138514 Steve/bboyminn: > But, I'm having trouble accepting that Harry is carrying part of > Voldemort's soul inside him. I can't completely discount it, but the > book seems to go against it. Dumbledore is no fool; he knows that a > bit of Voldemort's essense is in Harry, and he knows about the > Horcruxes, he would have to be a complete idiot not to at least > examine the connection between the two. But, indications are that he > did examine it, and is able to make a distinction between Voldemort's > soul and his earthy physical and magical powers. Sorry, but I can't > find the quote, though I know it took place in a conversation between > Harry and Dumbledore in the HBP. If I find it, I'll post it. Amiable Dorsai: I have trouble with that myself--if Harry literally has a chunk of Voldie's soul in him, then either Dumbledore somehow missed it, or he kept an incredibly vital piece of info from Harry. Though Dumbledore has a long history of doling out information in dribs and drabs, not telling him this one would go well over the line of lying by ommission, and I just can't see that. Particularly if a living Horcrux has to die in order to eliminate the soul fraction. Though I'd also be a bit surprised if the idea--right or wrong--doesn't occur to Harry (or Hermione) at some point. But the nature of Harry's connection to Voldie has not been well explored--Harry clearly shares some of Voldemort's magic, and is sometimes privy to his thoughts--is he especially sensitive to objects containing Voldy's soul? I've lent out my copy of CoS, but my vague memory is that Harry was strangely interested by the diary. Would someone with a copy to hand check to see if I'm remembering correctly? Amiable Dorsai From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 23 11:29:50 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:29:50 -0400 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story ( Message-ID: <007801c5a7d5$fa1c04a0$bec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138515 Carol >>But I'm getting offtrack, sorry! I want to know if there's more to the mass rejection of Snape by his fellow Order members than meets the eye. Can they really suddenly think that he's always been evil after all the risks he's taken for the Order? Is there more to this scene, which strikes me as a false note in the narrative, than just a shared mistrust of Snape by both sides and a very bad position for Snape if he wants to continue working with the Order? >>Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? CathyD: Sorry for snipping so much of your excellent post, Carol. That whole scene was kind of like being slapped in the face, for me. Total shock. First, I was rather confused by Harry's - what shall I call it - rearranging of the truth. I'm hoping it was just his grief that caused him to infuse his own thoughts onto what he knows (Snape joined the Order *before* LV fell - therefore before his parents died) and not that he was knowingly trying to sway the opinion of the others. Lupin's reaction was directly in response to Harry's "he was sorry that they were dead" which is not what Dumbledore said, nor what Harry *knows* to be the truth. Even if you leave out the years that Snape was her student McGonagall worked with the man for fifteen years! Certainly he goaded her about Gryffindor not winning the house cup or Quidditch cup, she probably did her share of the same. I would think that in fifteen years a person could gain some kind of insight into the man apart from trusting him for Dumbledore's sake?! Just reading it again...in McG's defense she did say "...*Snape*....I can't believe it." Really, all the information he has given to the Order about DEs, Voldemort. How can everyone shrug it off so easily? Ok, Tonks I can buy...she's only been in the Order two years, wouldn't have that much contact with Snape apart from when he taught her Potions, but Lupin, McGonagall, Madam Pomfrey. As someone else said a while back, suddenly, all these people who have never really believed Harry before, know his not so great opinion of Snape, believe him 100% without question on this point. They were all in shock surely, Dumbledore is dead! DUMBLEDORE...the greatest wizard of all time! DEAD! But certainly someone should have said "No, not Snape, he's on our side. He's been working for us for fifteen plus years. He wouldn't do that." I can only hope that the first chapters of book 7 will show some of these people coming to their senses and questioning Harry about what really happened up on the Astronomy Tower. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Aug 23 11:43:00 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:43:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter... Message-ID: <20050823114300.70260.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138516 We've always assumed that Snape's attitude to Harry is for the most part explained by his history with James, and by equalling Harry with James. I've never questioned it until now. But after HBP I can see another explanation, at least as convincing. In his talks with Bella and Narcissa, Snape mentions something like "at first I've suspected that Harry can become the next Voldemort". What if it's true, does this explanation fit the facts? Let's assume that Snape was on the side of light, at least for the duration of the first five books, and that he'd had enough of the Dark Lords for one's lifetime. Did Snape's Dark Mark hurt at the same moment when Harry's scar did, at the beginning of Year 1? That would make him very suspicious from the beginning. After that, what Snape sees of Harry during his school years? A boy who has all of the other teachers charmed - just like Tom Riddle. A boy who's assembled around himself a group of friends who are prepared to cheat, steal and beg for his sake - just like Tom Riddle. A boy who speaks Parseltongue - just like Tom Riddle. Harry thinks that Snape hated him much more after he'd saved the Philosopher's Stone. Could that be because we only have Quirrel's body and Harry's word for what's really happened? And a tall story it is. Much more likely that either there was no Voldemort spirit there at all, or if it was - it had made some kind of deal with the boy. Yes, anyone who has an insider view on Harry's motives would see how very different he is from Tom Riddle, but for an outsider it can all very convincingly look like another Dark Lord in making. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 23 12:30:20 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:30:20 -0400 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... Message-ID: <009101c5a7de$6d8afa10$bec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138517 doddiemoemoe >>What would Snape have to do to redeem himself? Now in my book it's nothing. CathyD: Same with me, but that's because, in *my* book, he's already been redeemed when he joined the Order of the Phoenix fifteen or so years ago. >>He's responsible for the deaths of Lilly and James Potter. Yes, he is, but he also worked with Dumbledore to try to prevent it once he found out what LV was intending to do with the information he had. >>He's even responsible for Harry being the chosen one. Yes, he is, although it was certainly not in any way planned by Snape. He had no way of knowing what LV would do with the prophecy information, and as soon as he found out, he went to Dumbledore for help. >>He's cruel to Neville, Hermione and Harry. Lots of teachers are cruel to students, it's not a jailable offence. I could give you quite a list of teachers I know personally who were cruel to kids in classes. Snape taught the only way he knew how: by being tough. (I had a teacher just like him in 7th grade and some kids, who never did well before, blossomed under his method.) In Snape's shoes I'd have told Hermione more than once to sit down, shut up and not raise her had again for the rest of the class. Snape knows what he did (passing info to LV) is what made Harry and Neville what they are. He knows they need to be stronger and better wizards than they currently are to fight the coming battle (especially the Chosen One). You and I would maybe have taken Neville aside and tutored him, and helped him along. Snape doesn't know how to teach in that way. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Snape knows nothing he does in this class is going to kill Harry or Neville, but it will make them stronger. There are many lessons to be learned in life, nasty teachers are one of them. And we must remember that Harry is not always innocent, either. He doesn't pay attention in class, doesn't always complete his homework to the best of his ability, doesn't study, doesn't try. >>He's responsible for the fate of Neville's parents. Yes, he is, in the same way he is responsible for Harry being the chosen one. It is not something he intended, but by giving LV the prophecy information, something LV made happen. Snape already attempted to counter that by taking the information to Dumbledore. >>He made an unbreakable vow to ensure DD was killed. (or that Harry would be killed in some theories) He made an Unbreakable Vow. As someone, I wish I could remember who, recently pointed out, Snape made the Unbreakable Vow based on what he and Narcissa had just said, that it would be possible for him to help Draco and that he would protect him. I think Narcissa threw him a curve with that last "if it seems Draco will fail, will you carry out the deed" but at that point he was trapped by his own decision to go ahead with an Unbreakable Vow when it truly was not necessary. Neither Narcissa nor Bellatrix could go back to LV and say that Snape had not agreed to the Vow. They weren't supposed to be discussing the Plan with anyone. Pettigew wouldn't go...he was too busy staying away from LV. LV would never know that he didn't take a vow so he wouldn't even have to come up with an excuse. >>He let slip that Lupin was a werewolf. Well, as Lupin himself said, people were going to find out anyway. Hermione had already figured it out, as would probably several of the others IF they had bothered to do the homework instead of whining about it. >>He let slip that Sirius was an animagus. (causing him to be an absolute prisoner in OOP--and please note that as rash, angry and irritable as Sirius became he still never revealed that Snape was a "double spy" or even that he was a DE.) Did he? I thought it was Pettigrew, since Pettigrew left Hogwarts at the end of PoA and went straight to find VapourMort in Albania. According to GoF, Sirius said: "But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater..." He couldn't reveal what he didn't know. As for *double spy* I think, when Snape came over to the OotP, Dumbledore kept that quite a secret. Dumbledore knew, himself, that there was a spy in the Order, and he could not risk Snape's life. If too many people in the Order knew, the spy could out Snape to LV. >>He states he passed the information to have Vance killed. A lie. He knew Bellatrix had no way to confirm this information as she is no longer one of LV's insiders. >>He joined the DE's of his own accord, he didn't back out right away either(he "left" for completely different reasons than Regulus Black for example). How do you know that? Sirius said, Regulus got in so far, panicked about what he was being asked to do, and tried to back out. Regulus' problem is he didn't have anyone to go to for help. Snape did. I see Snape as quite the same as Regulus. He joined the DE's for whatever reason (we don't yet know), passed the Prohecy information, then panicked when he realized what LV was about to do...kill a baby...and went to the one person he knew could help - Dumbledore - help both him out of the DE situation, and help protect the family of the baby as well. >>With this much blood, heartache and sorrow....how can he possibly redeem himself?!?!? As I said before, he's already been redeemed by turning from the DE's to the Order. The whole problem is, Dumbledore didn't share the personal information of why Snape switched sides, and so the redemption has so far only been seen by Dumbledore and Snape. I'm quite certain we, as well as the OotP members, will see it in the next book. >>DD gave him a chance, and in my opinion, Snape failed miserably..(as a teacher, mentor and colleague) Oh, I've thought he did remarkably well. He got 10 of 40 students in Harry's year to achieve an Outstanding Owl. Well, 10 that continued on to NEWT potions. There may have been more who didn't need NEWT level potions. Who is Snape supposed to be menotoring? Slytherin kids by my estimation. I think he does all right there. Snape thwarted all attempts of Quirrell to gain the Philosopher's Stone, not to mention saving Harry's life into the mix. Prepared, perfectly, the Wolfsbane potion for Lupin...although he detested the sight of him, didn't trust him and told Dumbledore so. He was right by Dumbledore's side when Dumbledore realized Moody wasn't who he appeared to be...showed up in Moody's Foe-Glass as I recall. Shoved his Dark Mark tattooed arm under Cornelius Fudge's stupid nose to prove that Dumbledore was right about LV having returned to full strength. Provided Umbridge with fake Veritaserum when she wanted to interrogate Harry. Provided the counter-curse/potion that saved Dumbledore's life after his encounter with the Ring/Horcrux. Provided information on the DE/LV activities to the Order of the Phoenix including that LV was after the Prophecy and LV's reaction to the destruction of the Diary which I'm sure was very informative to Dumbledore. Need I say more? >>If Snape can dupe Voldemort...why not DD?!?!? Very true. But Dumbledore has a reason to trust Snape. A very good reason and more than just the waffle he told Harry. And it is obvious, to me at least, that Voldemort does not trust anyone, not even Snape. >>Did/has Snape ever truly duped either one?(I maybe have some sympathy for him if he hasn't---but sympathy doesn't mean I believe he's redeemed.) I think he has duped LV quite well. But that's JMO. >>Evil/Not Evil/Entirely Selfish....I still don't see redemtion in him. >>Realization of one's mistake doesn't mean redemption...attempting to right a wrong may lead to redemption...but in my opinion Snape simply has too many wrongs to right in one book. >> And, as I've said, he righted a lot of those wrongs, back before James and Lily were murdered, when he joined the Order of the Phoenix and passed to Dumbledore the information of what LV was about to do so Dumbledore could put a plan into place to protect James, Lily, and Harry. It is not Snape's fault that the wrong Secret-Keeper was chosen. >>He'd have to do more than help or even save Harry in my mind's eye. I find that quite sad, really. If Dumbledore, himself, through a bottled memory, reveals the real reason Snape turned from DE to OotP? If Snape killed Nagini, thus destroying a Horcrux? If Snape finds the hiding places of the other Horcruxes and/or destroys any of them? If Snape provides potions/counter-charms-jinxes that stop/prevent Harry's (or Ron's or Hermione's) death after dealing with future Horcruxes? If Snape is still capable of communicatiing via a patronus...a patronus in the shape of a bumblebee (thank you Carol...I love that idea)? If Snape stepped between a DE and the Trio saving their lives as they Apparate away while losing his own by showing his true allegiance? >>He's like an over-grown bat....IOW a rodent/rat with wings.. Ah, but JKR has already ruled out that possibility. ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 12:35:51 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:35:51 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: <007801c5a7d5$fa1c04a0$bec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: >> Carol: >> Can they really suddenly think that he's always been evil after >> all the risks he's taken for the Order? Is there more to this >> scene, which strikes me as a false note in the narrative, than >> just a shared mistrust of Snape by both sides and a very bad >> position for Snape if he wants to continue working with the Order? Here's a line of questioning to take: do they KNOW for sure what he's been doing for the Order? We know that Snape reports and brings things in, but given what we now know of Dumbledore's working style, I doubt other Order members were deeply in on what Snape is doing. And thus it comes back down to the issue I was flogging before the book--second-hand trust. > CathyD: > > I would think that in fifteen years a person could gain some kind > of insight into the man apart from trusting him for Dumbledore's > sake?! Just reading it again...in McG's defense she did > say "...*Snape*....I can't believe it." Really, all the > information he has given to the Order about DEs, Voldemort. How > can everyone shrug it off so easily? Because it's only been on Dumbledore's guarantee that they knew Snape was also not giving information to the DEs and Voldemort about the Order, I suspect. I think I've illustrated (or at least *tried* to) how easily everything Snape does can be read as for his own advancement, at the least--I suspect that's in play here, too. And there's another thing both of y'all are probably forgetting about. I doubt that most members of the Order, or people who you're talking about having known Snape for some time, knew that Snape was a DE (ex or not, let's leave it open) who left the fold. Wouldn't it be a pretty grave shock to discover that your next-door neighbor had been in a violent terrorist organization responsible for murdering some of your best friends--even *if* someone tells you that he left them, and helped out your side? [I think this does a lot to explain the intensity of animosity between Snape and Black in book 5, but that's a tangent unlikely to be resolved in the primary text.] So McGonagall and many others discovered two years ago (from the end of HBP) that someone they thought was a fairly known quantity (biased and nasty, but not evil, and looking out for the right things), who they thought they knew...well, he had a very, very large skeleton in the closet. And I will bet you fake money that Dumbledore, as with Harry, *categorically refused* to explain why he trusted Snape-- leaving them in a similar position to Harry, hanging on Dumbledore's trust alone. And given that people like McG and Lupin saw the DE's actions up close and personal, they may be quite a bit less likely to forgive and forget without the solid proof they never got. -Nora does the dance of having finished her written qualifiers From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Tue Aug 23 07:27:58 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:27:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Love to destroy someone (was Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430ACFFE.6020401@me.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138521 Vivian: >Which to me means that a living host can influence the horcrux. And >if Harry's soul/will is stronger than TR's soul piece then isn't it >possible that the horcrux might have changed in all those years of >living in Harry. > >Diary Tom became stronger by feeding off of Ginny's fears. What would >a diet of love and compassion do to Tom's horcrux? Fabian: I've been thinking about what Dumbledore means by saying that Harry needs Love to defeat Voldemort. To me, that sounds like turning Voldemort good, or at least not killing him. I've never considered Harry's scar to be a horcrux, but if it would be, it has probably changed into something else than it was at first. Also, I've noticed some people speak of how Snape might fit into the destruction of Voldemort. Somehow the scene in StarWars6 when Darth Vader is the one who really kills the emperor comes to mind, after Luke did the hardwork that is. /Fabian From medea_09 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 08:46:52 2005 From: medea_09 at hotmail.com (princess_kat0907) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:46:52 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > Anyway, I agree with the part of your post that I snipped, namely that the Trio won't go to Hogwarts in book 7 (at least not as students). Otherwise the whole set-up at the end of HBP would be pretty useless, and there is more than enough to do in book 7 anything, therefore I think it's a wise decision from JKR to leave out the school routine. That means Hermione probably won't become Headgirl. I find this quite remarkable from her, to give up the post she fairly certain would have got, to help Harry.< (snip) Really? Can you REALLY see Hermione not going back to school? Yes, I agree that Harry won't be a student at Hogwarts next year. And Ron? Well, he never really was the academic sort. But there needs to be a connection to Hogwarts - if not for sentimental reasons, then because Voldemort has a connection to Hogwarts, through the four founders and his remaining Horcruxes (That is, if we believe Dumbledore). If Hermione goes back to school, she gets to be Head Girl - an authorative position giving her access to more places in the school than ordinary students - as well as Harry's accomplice. I think Harry would do well to make sure Hermione stays at school... -Princess Kat From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 23 13:15:18 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:15:18 -0000 Subject: How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter... In-Reply-To: <20050823114300.70260.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138523 Sorry for that last post, accidentally hit send :) Irene: > In his talks with Bella and Narcissa, Snape mentions > something like "at first I've suspected that Harry can > become the next Voldemort". What if it's true, does > this explanation fit the facts? > Yes, anyone who has an insider view on Harry's motives > would see how very different he is from Tom Riddle, > but for an outsider it can all very convincingly look > like another Dark Lord in making. Jen: I find your reasons convincing Irene, but not Snape's tale. First, no one in the room can refute his statement that 'many followers' thought Harry might be the new Dark Lord. Bella was in Azkaban, Narcissa is not a DE, and Peter was a rat. And the minute Harry was sorted into Gryffindor like the despised James, I suspect Snape gave up on him as another waste of a person like his father (but that's not to say other people in the WW saw the things you pointed out about Harry and wondered). Actually, I was completely surprised Snape said that. Isn't that what Voldemort fears most? His followers rounding around another Dark Lord leaving him as yesterday's news? It's not like he'd be grateful someone came along to further the cause in his absence. And to tell Bella that, of all people, who is looking for something to hang Snape with! I'm becoming more and more convinced LV did *not* find Snape's story satisfactory upon his return. This Unbreakable was his test set by LV, ably coerced into by Narcissa, and Snape walked right into it. JKR said Voldemort uses his henchman to do his dirty work and that's all Snape is to him. Jen From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 13:18:53 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:18:53 -0000 Subject: How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter... In-Reply-To: <20050823114300.70260.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138524 Irene Mikhlin: > Did Snape's Dark Mark hurt at the same moment when > Harry's scar did, at the beginning of Year 1? That > would make him very suspicious from the beginning. > > After that, what Snape sees of Harry during his school > years? > > A boy who has all of the other teachers charmed - just > like Tom Riddle. > A boy who's assembled around himself a group of > friends who are prepared to cheat, steal and beg for > his sake - just like Tom Riddle. > A boy who speaks Parseltongue - just like Tom Riddle. Amiable Dorsai: But Snape was hostile to Harry during their very first encounter, long before any of these things would have been apparent to Snape. The Parsletongue incident didn't even occur until Harry's second year! Are you suggesting precognition? Irene Mikhlin: > Harry thinks that Snape hated him much more after he'd > saved the Philosopher's Stone. Could that be because > we only have Quirrel's body and Harry's word for > what's really happened? And a tall story it is. Much > more likely that either there was no Voldemort spirit > there at all, or if it was - it had made some kind of > deal with the boy. > > Yes, anyone who has an insider view on Harry's motives > would see how very different he is from Tom Riddle, > but for an outsider it can all very convincingly look > like another Dark Lord in making. Amiable Dorsai: If Snape thought that Harry was a "Dark Lord in making" he handled the problem in a very poor way. Wouldn't it be better to befriend the lad and try to mold him into something better? Granted, that would take a measure of empathy and kindness we have zero reason to believe Snape ever possessed... Amiable Dorsai From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 23 13:34:34 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:34:34 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138525 In post 138495 Carol wrote: > snip > But I'm getting offtrack, sorry! I want to know if there's more to the > mass rejection of Snape by his fellow Order members than meets the > eye. Can they really suddenly think that he's always been evil after > all the risks he's taken for the Order? Is there more to this scene, > which strikes me as a false note in the narrative, than just a shared > mistrust of Snape by both sides and a very bad position for Snape if > he wants to continue working with the Order? > > Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that > McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? > > Carol, hoping that Lupin will somehow learn about the Unbreakable Vow > and realize what would have happened to Dumbledore, Draco, and possibly Harry if Snape had died Potioncat: Wow, someone who's better at denial than I am, and I'm real good at it! (Just kidding, Carol.) Well, yes, the scene bothered me too. I wanted someone inside canon to react the way I did to have the "I don't believe it, and there must be a good reason for it!" reaction. No one did. But, we only see the one moment that Harry first tells them that Snape killed Dumbledore. We don't see the thousands of posts they write each other about it in the days and weeks afterwards. We've had a month or so to think about it and discuss it. They've only had a few days. And there is no getting around the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore. I'm not sure that any of them are playing a role; I don't think anyone had been prepared for the possibility of this happening. All of them knew that Snape went back and forth between the Order and the DEs and all seem to have known that at one time he was a DE. That would make a sudden loss of faith in him very believable. Particularly since there may have been times that they would have doubted him before this. Snape told Bella and Cissy that he was the one who provided information that led to Vance's death. Although we don't know how that occurred, it may be another situation that shed a poor light on Snape from the Order's standpoint. Carol again: snip . They all assume the worst: premeditated murder > and treason. It's just too quick. They should question it as Hagrid > did and remember things about Snape that make them question this > abrupt change from extremely cunning spy or double agent to DE > murderer. Not one of them seems to see that such a move is completely > out of character for Snape, who never gives away his position--and who > works, always, through words instead of actions (even as he parries Harry's curses in a scene they don't know about). Potioncat: Well, if they accept the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore (some of us don't, and we were there) it would be hard for them to think he had a good reason. As far as we know, none of them knew about the UV. (I can explain that stupid UV, but I can't justify it!) And, knowing he was very good at tricking LV would have to make them wonder if he hadn't tricked them instead. Besides, not only do we know some things that they don't, they know things that we don't. Too bad we can't all sit down and discuss it. So, to get to the point, I think, as written, the Order believes Snape killed DD in an act of betrayal. How or if he will disprove that will be a major part of Book 7. Potioncat From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Aug 23 13:41:40 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:41:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050823134140.72922.qmail@web86205.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138526 --- amiabledorsai wrote: > Amiable Dorsai: > But Snape was hostile to Harry during their very > first encounter, long > before any of these things would have been apparent > to Snape. The > Parsletongue incident didn't even occur until > Harry's second year! > Are you suggesting precognition? No, I'm suggesting prejudice. As Harry was prejudiced from the beginning, because his scar hurt, the same could be true for Snape. And Harry thinks that Snape's hate grows stronger as the years pass. > Amiable Dorsai: > If Snape thought that Harry was a "Dark Lord in > making" he handled the > problem in a very poor way. Wouldn't it be better > to befriend the lad > and try to mold him into something better? Yes, it's also better if the teacher gets respect through love rather than fear. We all know Snape's opinion on that. ;-) Irene Mikhlin ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From nawyecka at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 13:44:55 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan In-Reply-To: <430AC184.8000400@telus.net> Message-ID: <20050823134455.71535.qmail@web60421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138527 --- Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > Larry now: > > > > "Last gamble..." Wow is that different, or for > that > > matter more justifiable than the placing of a spy? > > > > "Risk everything..." Seems a euphamism for do > > anything. See posts138237 and 138321. Dumbledore > is > > not a Dark Lord, rolling the dice with the souls > of > > others. > Larry > > Kathy writes: > "And yet, knowing how important it was that *my > plan* should > succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this > flaw to ruin it." > and another > "I care more for your happiness than your > knowing the truth, more > for your peace of mind than *my plan*, more for your > life than the lives > that might be lost if the *plan* failed". > and another > "What did I care if numbers of nameless and > faceless people and > creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if > in the here and now, > you were alive, and well, and happy. > > To my way of thinking, he is rolling a few souls > here. Plus talking > Flamels into destroying the stone so V can't get it, > causing their > deaths. I am not saying that Dumbledore is evil, > just dedicated to a > purpose. Really dedicated. Still dedicated. > KJ Larry now: See below; I'll stand by my original post. I never said Dumbledore had no plan. In fact, I state what I think his plan was. His plan was to fight a holding action until Harry knew what he needed to know to do what only Harry could do. I see nothing in your quotes that even hint otherwise. Risking life, limb or pain is not risking a soul. I thought all to posts were clear enough. Mere death does not risk a soul, it is inevitable and really "the next great adventure." How exactly is asking someone to risk the next great adventure putting their soul in jeopardy? The posts and canon are clear, it is murder that splits the soul, irrepairably damaging the soul. Again, it is the differance between a Dumbledore and a Voldemort in that Dumbledore would never ask of one that they risk their soul, and Voldemort would not hesitate. As for Flamel, they had "a little chat," and Flamel agreed that it was high time for the next great adventure. Are you suggesting Dumbledore murdered these people? "Cause" seems such an imprecise term. He allowed them to find the correct path on their own, I see nothing wrong here. > > Larry now: > > > > Anyone of good conscience would feel guilt and > sorrow > > by asking others to place themselves in danger. > You > > seem below to be making a case that Dumbledore is > not > > so "nice", what ever that means. But aren't his > pangs > > of conscience proof of goodness? Voldemort feels > no > > such thing for those he places in danger. > Larry > > Kathy writes: > What is worse, to feel guilt and sorrow and do > it anyway, or not > have a clue that you are doing anything bad? > KJ Larry now: Allow me a WWII analogy. Prime Minister Churchill who spoke many times of the pain he suffered sending young men to their deaths. Or take his opposite number, who suffered no such qualms for any of his actions, many of which went far beyond this. I'll leave the readers to decide on which is worse. > > Larry > > What master plan? Read original post again, > 138106, > > and see below. > Larry > > Kathy writes: > See first point above. > > > > Larry now: > > Maybe some can correct me here, but Lupin's > physical > > weakness stems from his use of the potion. The > other > > werewolf we have seen, Fenrir Greyback, does not > seem > > lacking in vigor. Without the potion, I see no > reason > > for Lupin being unqualified for the job. > Larry > > Kathy writes: > Pg312 HBP > "But I do not forget that during the year I taught > at Hogwarts, > Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every > month, made it perfectly, > so that I did not have to *suffer* as I usually do > at the full moon". > and another > "He kept me healthy." > and another > Pg 309 HBP > Meanwhile Remus Lupin, who was thinner and more > ragged-looking than ever.... > KJ Larry now: Your first two quotes help prove my point. He "suffered" at the full moon. What did the potion do?, it prevented the change, making Lupin "healthy." The potion may have had side effects, we do not know, but in any case, we have seen two werewolves up close, Lupin and Greyback, one appears healthy and one does not. One views his condition as a ravaging enemy, one does not. It seems that the condition itself is not weakening at all. In fact, Lupin's appearance may stem from his struggle against his condition, evidence of psycholoical strength. And let us not forget Bill, who may exhibit "wolfish characteristics" from time. I'm not clear on what those characteristics would be, but weakness doesn't seem to me at least to be in the cards. > > Larry now: > > > In any case, Dumbledore knew of the various > > explainations Snape would give Voldemort, and knew > > them to be reasonable, hence the risk to Snape was > > also reasonable. > Larry > > Kathy writes: > A little Crucio never hurt anyone. You any > relation to Dumbledore? Larry now: Crucio, really? I must have missed that. "Initial displeasure" HBP Am. ed. P. 28-29, is not an unforgivable. Voldemort was initially displeased with all his returning DE. How many returned, how many had Crucio inflicted on them? > > Larry now: > > > > What you take for lack of trust is really evidence > > that there is no master plan. Dumbledore was > merely > > fighting a holding action, buying time until Harry > was > > ready to do what only Harry could do. > > > > There is not the slightest shred of evidence that > > Dumbledore was orchestrating some procession to > final > > victory. In fact, the section of The Prephecy that > > implies Harry is the one how can defeat the Dark > Lord > > is never contradicted by Dumbledore. > snip > > > I have no sense that Dumbledore planned a series > of > > enveloping moves, leading to inevitable check > mate. He > > was training his warrior, and when that training > was > > complete would send him out to combat and hope for > the > > best. HBP Am. ed. P.197-198: > > "Sir," said Harry tentativly, "does what you're > going > > to tell me have anything to do with the prophecy? > Will > > it help me...survive?" > > > > "It has a very great deal to do with the > prophecy," > > said Dumbledore, as casually as if Harry had asked > him > > about the next day's weather, "and I certainly > hope > > that it will help you to survive." > > Larry > > Kathy writes: > That Dumbledore had a plan and was > orchestrating it is canon. > Notice how he does not make Harry any false promises > here. He is also > using Harry, which in all honesty he has made plain > to Harry, sort of. > KJ Larry now: Again see above and cited posts. I clearly state Dumbledore had a plan, and that plan was to buy time while Harry learned what he needed to know so he could do what only Harry could do. Nothing you have provided hints otherwise. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Aug 23 13:37:50 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:37:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050823133750.80014.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138528 --- Jen Reese wrote: > Jen: I find your reasons convincing Irene, but not > Snape's tale. > Actually, I was completely surprised Snape said > that. Isn't that what > Voldemort fears most? His followers rounding around > another Dark Lord > leaving him as yesterday's news? Yes, that explanation is not very good for "Faithful Death Eater" Snape. However, *if* he was on Dumledore's side at the time, that makes some sense. Serving the Dark Lord does not sound like a very pleasant job, and Snape would have had his fill of it by the time Harry comes to Hogwarts. > I'm becoming more and more convinced LV did *not* > find Snape's story > satisfactory upon his return. This Unbreakable was > his test set by LV, > ably coerced into by Narcissa, and Snape walked > right into it. JKR > said Voldemort uses his henchman to do his dirty > work and that's all > Snape is to him. > Can't wait for book 7, that's all I'm going to say. :-) Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 13:51:23 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:51:23 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is e In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138529 Carol makes some good points. I only want to react to a few. I hope I haven't distorted her views in the process. > Carol responds: > Sorry for the ruthless snipping, Alla, but I also noticed the very > swift turning against Snape--suspiciously fast, in fact, almost as > if it were planned and they were in on some secret that they were > keeping from Harry, as if they were acting. Amiable Dorsai: Or as if long-held suspicions, suppressed for Dumbledore's sake, were suddenly confirmed by Snape's murder of Dumbledore. Carol: > McGonagall does the same thing, essentially, "Well, what do you > expect, with his background?" And yet she taught young Severus Snape > for seven years... Amiable Dorsai: During which time, by the only reports we have, he was a thoroughly unpleasant little... Carol: >...worked with him as a fellow teacher and fellow Head > of House for fifteen years... Amiable Dorsai: For at least five years of which, he was in the habit of persecuting and belittling members of her house.... Carol: > worked with him to help expose Barty > Crouch, followed his lead in exposing Lockhart, on and on. All of > their conversations in the books have been civil, almost friendly. Amiable Dorsai: So McG, (at least) was capable of acting like a professional. Carol: > Don't they know that the natural first response when a colleague is > accused of murder is "It can't be true!"? Amiable Dorsai: Maybe when they hear about it second hand. When they see the body... As it happens, I was engaged to a woman who lived not far from John Wayne Gacy's house when the news about his murders came to light. When Gacy was first arrested, his neighbors reacted rather the way you suggest: "Must be some mistake, John's a good guy!" That tune changed as soon as the bodies started coming out. Gacy, by all accounts always *acted* like a good guy--his neighbors' reaction is understandable--Snape could be remarkably nasty, even in front of adult witnesses. I'm not at all surprised that people could immediately believe the worst of him. Amiable Dorsai From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 23 14:14:44 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:14:44 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing - Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138530 Steve: > You must see the twisted irony in that. If Tom had not killed his > parents, if he had live his life to the best of his abilities, he > could have had everything he wanted plus been admired by the entire > wizard world. Now, having chosen his dark and dangerous path of > force, power, and destruction, he has doomed his self to an endless > futile struggle to try and hold together a world of oppressive > domination and force tenuous allegiances. > > "Tyranny is the architect of its own doom." Jen: I'm cutting to the heart of your post here, because this quote says it all (and I agreed with most everything else you said). I personally think JKR is on shaky ground psychologically, that Riddle was ever in a position to make the most of his inherent abilities and skills. There were so many strikes against Tom from the start. *However* given the context of the story and the choice theme, we have to believe Riddle was given the opportunity to change when he went to Hogwarts, and he continued to see the power of dark magic over Dumbledore's assertions that love is more powerful. If nothing else, Riddle had the chance to notice other kinds of magic and have role models who weren't using magic to hurt others. He didn't get sent to Durmstrang, after all! So, Riddle/Voldemort chose his path and found out the truth of tyranny, that getting in power and staying in power are two different things. Desperation and fear undermine most any operation and the prophecy set in motion his greatest fear--for the first time a truly able opponent is presented. We know the rest ;). But back to the heart of your post, that Voldemort is set up to defeat himself. I really believe this is the most logical end to the plot we have so far. Harry has defied LV over and over, more times than anyone else, with no overt magical power or skills beyond that of many wizards we've seen. Harry cannot defeat Voldemort's magical abilities, something both he and Harry continue to overlook. Harry doesn't quite believe the power of love can defeat LV or he'd lay off the dark magic, and Voldemort, in his attempts to kill Harry, seems only to be strengthening Harry's protection and laying a trap for himself. In the end love WILL win out, because Voldemort made it so (another example of twisted irony). Harry just needs to be in the right place at the right time, which seems to be his *own* gift, not a result of Lily's sacrifice or Voldemort's power transfer or anything else. He asks for help, and help is given. > Jen wrote: > "Tom never had the chance to live the life of a Hermione or a Ron, > but he actively worked against his base nature of goodness and > *chose* to obliterate his soul, even after the opportunity > presented itself to become a different kind of person when he > discovered he was a wizard." > Del replies: > I disagree on two points. > > 1) I'm not sure Tom had any "base nature of goodness". We know > that he never loved. I wonder how a soul that doesn't *know* love > can be called good in any way. I'm not saying that he was evil to > start with, but I do think that he was *not* good. He was neutral, > in a way. And I don't know if he could *ever* have been good, > truly good, good deep inside. He could have *acted* good, but > could he have *been* good, without knowing love, compassion, > empathy? Jen: As a social worker in RL, I tend to personally agree with your assessment. But like I said to Steve's comment, I was trying to put the puzzle pieces together in the context of what JKR's intent seems to be: Riddle was not born evil, we don't have a context for a neutral category, the choice theme is at the core of the book; therefore, the logical syllogism is Riddle had a choice. Del: > 2) You say that his entering the WW was some kind of chance to > change his life. But I don't think Tom saw things that way *at > all*. The very concept of changing one's life depends entirely on > someone realising that there has been something wrong with the way > they've lived their life up to now. As far as Tom was concerned, > the things that were wrong in his life were the world he was > living in, the people he was forced to live around, but it was > definitely *not* himself. He was special, he was better, it's the > others that were wrong. Jen: I doubt he did see it that way. By the time DD got to him, it may have been too late for any real change. Yet he's a main character in a story chock-full of redemption, with characters evaluating and changing their strategies in response to new information. JKR implies through Dumbledore's words that Hogwarts can be a chance to learn something new about magic: "At Hogwarts...we teach you not only to use magic but to control it. You have--inadvertently, I am sure--been using your powers in a way that is neither taught not tolerated at our school." (chap. 13, p. 273, US). So Riddle is exposed to a different kind of magic at Hogwarts, the kind Dumbledore professes to be more important and powerful than dark magic. Maybe DD hoped the idea of a powerful magic might catch Tom's attention. But Riddle doesn't learn what's offered at Hogwarts, instead he searches out the COS and dark magic banned from the school. I think this works in the context of the canon we've been given, although from JKR's comment that Snape is more culpable than Voldemort because he was loved, it's possible she is backing off the idea Riddle was offered the same choices as Harry or anyone else. Jen From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 23 14:46:37 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:46:37 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138531 Eggplant: > Ok, fine, but why did Dumbledore have to die, Snape was already in > good with Voldemort? And why did Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to > Murder Dumbledore months before he actually did it? It all makes no > sense if Snape is good, it makes perfect sense if Snape is evil. Pippin: The vow has a large and glaring loophole in it. Snape need only fulfill it "If it seems necessary" -- it would not seem necessary to kill Dumbledore in order to save Draco from failing if Dumbledore is already dead, or appears to be in the eyes of Voldemort. I think he is dead, but I think he was planning to fake his death if necessary to release Snape from his vow, even though that might take him out of action for a while. He certainly took steps immediately to make sure the Dursleys would take Harry back and that Harry would go to them even if he wasn't around. (Fans who think Dumbledore was too soft on the Dursleys might like to remember that he has arranged for Harry to be in residence when the protective spells run out. That should be interesting, no?) Chess players often sacrifice the Queen, even though it is the most powerful piece on the board, because in the end game position is more important than power. At least two of the horcruxes were protected by powerful dark magic. Who besides Snape knows enough about dark magic to save Harry if a curse like the one that claimed Dumbledore's hand strikes him down? Even if it turns out that Harry doesn't need this protection, (he is, after all, the only person who has destroyed one of LV's horcruxes without any harm to himself) I don't think Harry is going to be in good shape after the final battle. It might be nice to have someone around to drag Harry out of the ruins, don't you think? If Harry finds that Snape has saved his life, he might be disposed to consider whether events on the tower actually happened the way he thought they did. And even if he doesn't, he'll still be alive instead of dead. Eggplant: > Kill the other Death Eaters and tell Voldemort that Dumbledore had > done it, Snape was far more powerful than his Death Eater pals and he had the element of surprise. Pippin: Unfortunately Draco was present and Snape had been apprised that he was about to fail in his mission. How was Snape supposed to kill the other Death Eaters without activating the vow? Even if he has time to kill them first, the vow will strike Snape and he's dead. You are assuming that Dumbledore is more useful to the Order than Snape is, but haven't we been told, over and over again, that power isn't everything? Harry couldn't be told about this because his mind is open to Voldemort. Yes, he's told about the horcruxes. But was any effort made to keep Voldemort from knowing that Dumbledore was after them? I think not. Dumbledore shows off his withered hand in front of the whole school, wears the ring openly, puts it on display in his office, invites Slughorn to take up a position at the school, and generally couldn't have been more obvious if he'd sent Voldemort a Howler with "neener, neener" inscribed therein. It's the ministry and the Order who are being kept out of the horcrux loop, first because they would interfere in Harry's efforts, and secondly because if a swarm of aurors and Order members was out hunting horcruxes, Voldemort might decide to forgo the magic of having made exactly seven, and get busy making more. But Snape is at Voldemort's side, feeding Voldemort's ego with assurances that Potter is nothing to fear, he's just been lucky, something Voldemort wants to believe anyway. "there is nothing special about you after all." -- CoS ch 17 Potter, "mediocre to the last degree, though as obnoxious and self-satisfied as his father before him" will not strike the Dark Lord as someone who is worth giving up the power of seven. With all that, McGonagall and the other Order members, bar Hagrid who was never good at dissembling, are suspiciously accepting of Harry's version of events. They don't even go to view the body! And why not? Either Snape killed Dumbledore, or they must have made it look to Harry as if Snape had killed him. Either way, a loyal Order member would carry on as if they believed what Harry had seen. Pippin From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Aug 23 15:14:47 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:14:47 -0000 Subject: Choices (was re: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138532 --- Pippin wrote (responding to Lupinlore): > The contradiction is not in the narrative, but in the > interpretation people have put on it. People have taken > Dumbledore's words to mean, "we are what we choose to be." > [But] Dumbledore never said "Our choices make us what we > are." He said, speaking of Harry's choice not to be in > Slytherin, that it "makes you *very different* from Tom > Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we > truly are." [I]t is never stated anywhere that > Dumbledore or JKR thinks choice is the *cause* of the > differences. The emphasis is on examining people's > choices in order to determine who can be trusted, not on > the idea that we are solely what we choose to be. The only difference between the two interpretations is the philosophical question of free will. If one assumes that people's choices (colored as they may be by perspective and experience) are ultimately made of their own free will, then Dumbledore's statement must mean that our nature is simply the sum of our choices -- he cannot be saying that there is some inner nature, born of history and experience, that dictates our choices. I think the free will assumption is unavoidable in Dumbledore's case (if not JKR's). If Dumbledore were not a free will proponent, why refer to "choices" in the first place? He could simply have espoused some more or less sophisticated version of the platitude that actions speak louder than words. -- Pippin continued > Indeed, if the latter were true, then looking at the choices > people have made in the past would be a very poor way to > decide whether to trust them, because they could easily > choose differently next time. That is a valid objection only if you read Dumbledore's statement as a practical, rather than a moral, observation. I think it is quite clearly the latter. Dumbledore is not saying "I trust you, Harry, because even though Voldemort 'put a bit of himself in you' I can see from your choices that you are a good person." Instead, he is saying "What Voldemort put in you *cannot* make you good or evil; only what you choose to do with it can. Look how you chose what you thought was right when you were sorted: That is the sort of thing that makes you a good person." There is a parallel here with Dumbledore's discussion with Malfoy on the tower. While on the surface he is explaining to Malfoy why he (Dumbledore) does not believe Malfoy will kill him, in fact he is working feverishly to *convince* Malfoy that he has a choice in the matter -- not just on the practical level of "what will happen to me if I don't do it?" but on the moral level of "haven't I already sold my soul?". When Malfoy says "you don't know what I'm capable of," Dumbledore confronts him with his own choices just as he did with Harry in CS not -- despite what he literally says -- to show that Draco is incapable of murdering him, but to tell Draco, in essence, "whatever you have done in the past, you can redeem yourself by simply making the right choice now." I think, however, that there is a different way of resolving the contradiction that Lupinlore sees in Dumbledore's view of Voldemort. What Dumbledore is doing is not -- as Harry believes -- trying to show Harry that Voldemort was "evil" even as a child. (As Jen and others have pointed out, if Dumbledore had thought Voldemort irretrievably evil then, he would not have unleashed him upon Hogwarts.) Rather, Dumbledore is allowing Harry to study the way that Voldemort acts, because those known acts are good clues to unknown acts (past or future). Of course Voldemort could choose to change the way he acts, but that power of choice does not mean that there will be no patterns in his actions. Example: Dumbledore concludes from Voldemort's past actions that he does not trust others and likes to act alone. Does this mean he always acts alone? Of course not: otherwise what are the Death Eaters for? But this does not make the information about his tendency to act alone useless. Because that tendency is based on lack of trust, it suggests, for instance, that Voldemort has not confided to his Death Eaters the details of his horcruxes, and that someone hunting them down therefore is unlikely to be facing an army of Death Eaters. -- Matt From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 15:25:02 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:25:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > ahh. Let me clarify - when Snape was a student at Hogwarts, yes, > there was probably no reason for DD not to trust him. However, Snape > became a Death Eater - He wasn't born one, he became one(sometime > shortly after he left Hogwarts, I am guessing). He told Voldemort the > prophecy - what he heard, of course. So, when Snape went back to > Dumbledore, there were several reasons why Dumbledore should not trust > Snape. The fact that Snape would now what to *betray* Voldemort by > turning spy for DD, should & probably did raise DD's eyebrows. > > DD knows about Snape's mastery at Occlumens, so without a water- tight > reason, why would Dumbledore trust Snape when he turned? And over the > course of 16 years or so, Snape has proven his loyality to DD, but > back in 1980-1981, that history wasn't there. So it has to be > something else. Finwitch: Yes. Snape *confessed* and asked for his help. That was, IMO, enough for Dumbledore... particularly if Snape told him particularly nasty tale about something the DEs had done... and I don't think that Dumbledore trusting Snape was foolishness - more of doing the right thing despite of the risk. I'd say that this trusting of Dumbledore's is way to fight Voldemort causing loads of distrust... and I just admire him for it, whether or not he was correct about Snape. Oh, and mind you, Snape wasn't pretending to be someone else; and of course, he never did do anything to cause Dumbledore distrust him (or if he did, Dumbledore never found out - or Snape had an excuse ready... Dumbledore didn't find out about three illegal animagi at Hogwarts, did he?) - and why would he have, all those years Voldemort was less than a ghost? After Voldemort came back... well, you know what he told Bella? Being Dumbledore's trusted man made him *useful* to Voldemort AND was according to Voldemort's orders anyway. I just wonder... if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, how did he manage to fool Voldemort? Finwitch From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 15:45:06 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:45:06 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138534 "pippin_999" wrote: > it would not seem necessary to kill > Dumbledore in order to save Draco > from failing if Dumbledore is already > dead, or appears to be in the eyes of > Voldemort. I think he is dead, but I > think he was planning to fake his death > if necessary to release Snape from his vow So you're saying an Unbreakable Vow can be broken, you just need to fool it. Hmm, sounds like it needs a name change. > If Harry finds that Snape has > saved his life, he might be > disposed to consider whether > events on the tower actually > happened the way he thought they did. I like to think Harry is smarter than that. Snape is one of the very few people on earth that knows about the prophesy, so although he tells Harry and anybody else that will listen that he is of no importance we now know he can't really believe that. Snape saved Harry's life once and I have no doubt he'd do it again, at least until Harry kills Voldemort. And then it's a different story. And I hope Harry never distrusts the evidence of his eyes, whatever tale Snape spins, Harry saw what he saw that night in the Astronomy Tower. > Unfortunately Draco was present and > Snape had been apprised that he was > about to fail in his mission. How > was Snape supposed to kill the other > Death Eaters without activating the vow? Well Snape couldn't of course, and that is exactly why a good Snape would never EVER make an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore, not under ANY circumstances. I've read about nineteen dozen good Snape theories trying to explain away his murderous behavior and not one of them hangs together. Can you dispassionately look at your theory or any of the many others of the good Snape variety and say it's logical and a good plan? If you were a foot soldier and you were given a crazy plan like that would you be happy and say, yes that could work? One the other hand Evil Snape theories are a model of consistency and mental contortions and back flips are not necessary. > Harry couldn't be told about this > because his mind is open to > Voldemort. If Harry for whatever reason Harry could not be told of the plan then that alone would be enough to rule it out if Dumbledore is as wise as we are led to believe, even if it didn't have other holes large enough to sail a supertanker through. Because after witnessing Dumbledore's murder Harry will not rest until Snape is dead or he is. Eggplant From elbarad at aol.com Tue Aug 23 16:00:53 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:00:53 -0000 Subject: How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter... In-Reply-To: <20050823114300.70260.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138535 Irene > A boy who has all of the other teachers charmed - just > like Tom Riddle. > A boy who's assembled around himself a group of > friends who are prepared to cheat, steal and beg for > his sake - just like Tom Riddle. > A boy who speaks Parseltongue - just like Tom Riddle. > > Harry thinks that Snape hated him much more after he'd > saved the Philosopher's Stone. Could that be because > we only have Quirrel's body and Harry's word for > what's really happened? And a tall story it is. Much > more likely that either there was no Voldemort spirit > there at all, or if it was - it had made some kind of > deal with the boy. > > Yes, anyone who has an insider view on Harry's motives > would see how very different he is from Tom Riddle, > but for an outsider it can all very convincingly look > like another Dark Lord in making. > Thankyou very much for sharing that particular perspective with us. I for one had never really tried to think of Harry from Snape's point of view before. Since OotP I have understood why Snape despises Harry so, but it had never occured to me that Snape actually felt suspicious of Harry. That was very interesting, and I shall ponder on it... Rebecca From muellem at bc.edu Tue Aug 23 16:13:43 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:13:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > Yes. Snape *confessed* and asked for his help. That was, IMO, enough > for Dumbledore... particularly if Snape told him particularly nasty > tale about something the DEs had done colebiancardi: I think it was more of something that Snape had done - it has to be personal, no? And I think it goes back to Regulus Black and his wanting to leave Voldemort & his *death* >After Voldemort came back... well, you know > what he told Bella? Being Dumbledore's trusted man made him >*useful* > to Voldemort AND was according to Voldemort's orders anyway. > colebiancardi: what else WAS he supposed to tell Bella? A DE who did not trust him and was already spreading discord around the DE camp about Snape's loyality....He needed to make sure that she no longer questioned his alligence to the Dark Lord. > I just wonder... if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, how did he manage > to fool Voldemort? > Occumencey, right? How does Snape describe it - something about hiding the truth behind lies...How does he do this with Voldy? Well, by being the way Harry has viewed Snape - nasty, horrible, cruel with only anger, bitterness and resentment as emotions. By not showing favorites outside of his house(unlike Slughorn) and by not telling anyone outside of his house that they are good students. But we know he has given very good grades to other Houses. By spinning his tale, intertwining lies with truths, that is how he is able to fool Voldemort. Could it go both ways - sure it could. But I am sure if Snape was trying to fool DD and not Voldy, you would see a different *Snape*, not the nasty git that we have been exposed to for 6 books. colebiancardi From juli17 at aol.com Tue Aug 23 16:31:01 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:31:01 EDT Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story Message-ID: <8a.2d99f68e.303ca945@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138537 Carol wrote: Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? Carol, hoping that Lupin will somehow learn about the Unbreakable Vow and realize what would have happened to Dumbledore, Draco, and possibly Harry if Snape had died Julie: I was bothered by this scene. In fact, it's the only place in the book where I thought JKR's writing was sloppy. I decided that she must have been focusing on other things in the narrative and didn't realize that the reactions here rang false. As you said, it *doesn't* matter if Snape is evil or good in the end. McGonagall had a long-standing relationship with Snape, and spent fifteen years as his colleague, and Lupin prided himself on his fairness. Both knew some of the risks Snape had recently taken for the Order. At the very least, they should have expressed some momentary doubt that Snape could have fooled DD and everyone else so completely. Speaking of DD, it would have also been nice if they'd have shown some reluctance to abandon their faith in Dumbledore, instead of immediately accepting that he'd been so easily played for a fool. Julie (who suspects that if anyone eventually speaks for Snape, it will be either Lupin, who has the equanimity to look at all the facts dispassionately, or Hermoine, who trusts logic and will be bothered by the inconsistencies should she learn the whole story of what happened on the Tower--though that's leaving out anyone who might have further information on Snape or DD that we aren't yet privy to, such as Hagrid.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elbarad at aol.com Tue Aug 23 16:33:52 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:33:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138538 > Del: > > 2) You say that his entering the WW was some kind of chance to > > change his life. But I don't think Tom saw things that way *at > > all*. The very concept of changing one's life depends entirely on > > someone realising that there has been something wrong with the way > > they've lived their life up to now. As far as Tom was concerned, > > the things that were wrong in his life were the world he was > > living in, the people he was forced to live around, but it was > > definitely *not* himself. He was special, he was better, it's the > > others that were wrong. I think that Del's observation is central to the argument of whether or not Tom Riddle had any chance of living a normal life when he had 'never known love'. It was not what had happened to Tom that made him the person he was, it was the way that he saw what had happened to him, and the way that he reacted to it. "he was special" , "better", it was the "others who were wrong". He was essentially arrogant and, basically, not-a-nice- person. When Harry first sat with Ron on the Hogwart's Express in PS/SS it is said that he'd never before had anything to share, or indeed anyone to share it with. How heartbreaking is that?! In his living memeory he'd never experienced kindness or tenderness or generosity. BUT he is a brave, loyal and loving person. Voldemort may never have been loved (which Harry was for the first 14 months of his life) but are we to believe that he was never shown any kindness, generosity or tenderness as a baby or a child? Was he never cuddled as he was fed? Try feeding a tiny baby and not cuddle it - it's practically impossible - you'd have to be a dedicated sadist to manage that! Were there never any overtures of friendship made to him? I'm not saying that life in the orphage was easy for Voldemort, but I am saying that it's highly unlikely that life for Harry was any easier. Harry was certainly mistreated, Tom Riddle may have been. But neither were treated with love and yet only one grew up to be a psychopathic megalomaniac. Circumstances can certainly affect a persons' character, but really it is our own reaction to a given situation that makes us what we are, not what has happened. If young Tom was a psychopath who had grown up in a loving and stable environment, would he have been a nice person? Having 'seen' his father I'd say 'probably not', although he may not have been as supremely nasty as the Voldemort that we meet in the HP. Tom was not very nice. Possibly he was gentically not able to be nice. I'm not saying that he was born evil, but I do honestly believe that he could never have been a nice, generous, 'well-rounded' character. Simply because of who he was and not because of what had happened to him. I believe that, had Harry and Tom traded places at birth, Harry would still have been 'good', and Tom would still have been 'bad'. I hope that I have made sense, and that I haven't waffled too much. Anyhow, have got to go as the children are now squabbling loudly in the living-room. Rebecca From muellem at bc.edu Tue Aug 23 16:44:26 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:44:26 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "pippin_999" wrote: > > > it would not seem necessary to kill > > Dumbledore in order to save Draco > > from failing if Dumbledore is already > > dead, or appears to be in the eyes of > > Voldemort. I think he is dead, but I > > think he was planning to fake his death > > if necessary to release Snape from his vow > > So you're saying an Unbreakable Vow can be broken, you just need to > fool it. Hmm, sounds like it needs a name change. colebiancardi: I cannot speak for pippin_999, but I don't think that is what happened. I think that Dumbledore was being kept alive artifically and Snape was keeping him alive thru those means, ever since the blotched ring horcrux event. What Snape did was just *release* him and let nature take its course - by letting DD die, as he was living on borrowed time. Dumbledore wasn't around that much this year, when you would think that he would be for Harry. Especially after Sirius's death & Voldemort's battle with DD & Harry in OotP. > > > If Harry finds that Snape has > > saved his life, he might be > > disposed to consider whether > > events on the tower actually > > happened the way he thought they did. > > I like to think Harry is smarter than that. Snape is one of the very > few people on earth that knows about the prophesy, colebiancardi: Snape only knows the first part of the prophecy. Not the full part. > And I hope Harry never distrusts the evidence of his eyes, whatever > tale Snape spins, Harry saw what he saw that night in the Astronomy > Tower. even if he can't tell the difference between a real AK and a fake one? I hope that someone in book 7 tells Harry they need to review what happened on the tower that night and puts his memories in a pensive for viewing. Remember, Rowling states that the pensive is objective & neutral - unlike Harry's feelings about Snape. Much wiser people, like Arthur, Remus, Kingsley, can view that night in question & conclude what really happened. Harry has *seen* things before with Snape, and he has always been wrong. He cannot get past his personal hatred of Snape(even before DD died). Although DD told him that Snape did everything the night that Sirius died, Harry *still* wanted to believe that it was Snape's fault. He didn't care what DD was telling him. I think Lupin will be instrumental in changing the way Harry views Snape in book 7, if Rowling decides on Good!Snape. > > > Unfortunately Draco was present and > > Snape had been apprised that he was > > about to fail in his mission. How > > was Snape supposed to kill the other > > Death Eaters without activating the vow? > > Well Snape couldn't of course, and that is exactly why a good Snape > would never EVER make an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore, not under > ANY circumstances. colebiancardi: In Ch. 2, Spinner's End, there is no, and I mean, no clue that the UV was about Dumbledore. And up until the 3rd part of the UV, Snape thought he was getting off with just giving aid to Draco. When Cissa invokes the 3rd part, sealing Snape's fate, his hand twitches. What could he do at that point? Yank it back and yell no? He is supposed to be loyal to Voldy in Cissa's & Bella's eyes. That would blow his cover. And spies do many risky things, BTW. You should read John Le Carre's "The Spy Who Came In From the Cold" and tell me who is in the wrong in that book. My friend is just now reading the book - and he thinks the UV is about killing Harry, not Dumbledore. So, view it with some fresh eyes. He doesn't like Snape, but he noticed the twitch and said to me "I don't know how Snape is going to get out of this one". > One the other hand Evil Snape theories are a model of consistency and > mental contortions and back flips are not necessary. Colebiancardi: To you. To me, Snape is a very grey character - he is not a good man, but I do believe he is working for the Order. There are too many contradictions about Snape and his *evilness* to have him be just old evil. Why did Rowling, in the movie PoA, have Snape's character protect the children from the werewolf? To put himself in danger, first & foremost? colebiancardi From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 16:47:51 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:47:51 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138541 eggplant wrote: > > So you're saying an Unbreakable Vow can be broken, you just need to > fool it. Hmm, sounds like it needs a name change. eggplant again: > Well Snape couldn't of course, and that is exactly why a good Snape > would never EVER make an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore, not under > ANY circumstances. zgirnius here: I agree with your first point, I think a faked death should not be able to fool something as dramatically named and presented as an "Unbreakable Vow". (We could, of course, be wrong, as we know next to nothing about this magic at the end of HBP. Just Ron's recollections of something that happened when he was 5. I have no argument with proponents of DD is not dead theories, I see the canon support for them, I simply do not personally find them likely.) However, there's seemingly a legitimate way out of the Vow for Snape. He did not flat out promise to murder Dumbledore, or even kill him. He actually promised: "And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail...will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?". The obligation to carry out the task (kill DD) only comes into force if it seems Draco will fail. In fact, Draco even fails twice and Snape does nothing. Since Snape continues to live after both these failures despite his lack of action, it must be that the Vow requires a more obvious and overt failure before its requirement kicks in. This fact suggests that a permanent solution to Snape's dilemma, which DD and we readers would certainly consider a "happy ending" to the affair, would be if Draco were to forever renounce any attempts to carry out the task (for example, by accepting DD's "witness protection" offer for his mother and himself). This would mean he could never seem to fail, as he would never try again. And Snape could go on his ornery way not killing DD for the rest if his life... However, this happy resolution was not possible under the circumstances which in fact existed the third time Draco made an attempt. Snape was present, 4 DEs were present, and Draco in their eyes "seemed unable" to carry out the task. Early in the book Dumbledore makes the commment to Harry that "being- forgive me-rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger". Many have taken this to be foreshadowing that DD will make a BIG mistake later in the book. You, I feel sure, would say that this mistake was made years ago, and was trusting Snape. Fair enough... My feeling, however, is that this mistake was made in the course of HBP, and was to brush off Harry's warning that Draco was celebrating some significant accomplishment in the Room of Requirements the night DD planned the trip to the Cave. It was this mistake that made the resolution of the Vow dilemma I propose above impossible to carry out. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 17:36:28 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:36:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin's suffering (Was: Dumbledore's master plan) In-Reply-To: <430AC184.8000400@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138542 Larry wrote: > > Maybe some can correct me here, but Lupin's physical weakness stems from his use of the potion. The other werewolf we have seen, Fenrir Greyback, does not seem lacking in vigor. > Kathy responded, quoting Lupin and the narrator: > "But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, > Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to *suffer* as I usually do at the full moon". > and another > "He kept me healthy." > and another >> "Meanwhile Remus Lupin, who was thinner and more ragged-looking than ever...." Carol responds: Exactly, Kathy. Lupin is thinner, more ragged looking, with more grey hair, etc. in OoP and even more so in HBP (no more references to how young he looks, as in PoA) because he *doesn't* have the Wolfbane Potion to prevent him from suffering and unfortunately lacks the potion-making skill to prepare it himself. (The inventor of the potion would hardly have received the Order of Merlin if it were not a good thing!) Also, of course, Umbridge has passed legislation making it impossible for Lupin to get a job, and he has gone under cover with the werewolves much as Snape went under cover with the DEs, adding to his suffering by being like them. (How does he keep himself from killing anyone when he transforms? Does he lock himself up inside 12 Grimauld Place?) He has no money. His robes get shabbier each time he transforms. He is physically ill and weaker than he was at Hogwarts, where he had both good meals and the Wolfbane Potion, which Snape "made, and made perfectly," on Dumbledore's orders. Had he taken it before rushing out into the Shrieking Shack in PoA, he would have transformed into a harmless, docile werewolf instead of a savage one who endangered HRH. As for Fenrir Grayback, he seems to have developed in the opposite direction, becoming more beastlike even when it's not a full moon. I'm not sure what Dark magic is at work there, but it's certainly not the Wolfbane Potion, which is not Dark or DD would not have ordered Snape to make it. It made Lupin's life *less* miserable for his short term at Hogwarts and it kept the children safe during his monthly transformations. (Too bad the curse on the DADA position ended that idyll, but that's another thread.) Carol, wishing that Sirius had left some money to Lupin, who really needs it, instead of giving everything to Harry From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 23 17:36:02 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:36:02 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138543 Nora: > Here's a line of questioning to take: do they > KNOW for sure what he's been doing for the Order? > We know that Snape reports and brings things in, > but given what we now know of Dumbledore's working > style, I doubt other Order members were deeply in > on what Snape is doing. houyhnhnm: At the beginning of OotP, Snape is at the meeting that is held right after Harry gets to Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore is not there. Over the next few days, Snape is in and out several times (though he never stays for supper). Dumbledore is only mentioned as being there once. The meetings seem to focus on Voldemort's designs on the prophecy (parchment covered with what looked like the plan of a building)-- information that must surely have come from Snape. This suggests to me that Snape is reporting to the Order as a whole--that his information is not being funneled through Dumbledore. As for why they seem so ready to believe he is a traitor, I would say shock. Remember, one of the worst things about Voldemort's first reign of terror was the fact that no one could trust anyone anymore. Now the people who lived through that experience have been living it all over again for a year. People have been disappeared. Shops are boarded up. People are afraid their spouse may not really be their spouse, but a polyjuiced Death Eater. Little boys are imperioused to kill their grandparents. It is not surprising that they would believe the worst, when they haven't had time to think yet, only to react to an emergency. It kind of reminds me of Harry's inability to see the thestrals on the journey back to Hogsmeade after having seen Cedric die. It took all summer for the reality to sink in. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 23 17:40:02 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:40:02 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138544 Eggplant: > > So you're saying an Unbreakable Vow can be broken, you just need to > fool it. Hmm, sounds like it needs a name change. Pippin: I've taken a solemn vow and I've kept it for 27 years. It doesn't have any 'if's or 'seems'es in it. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard an RL solemn vow that did. 'Love, honor and cherish if it seems necessary?' I don't think so! Someone was awfully interested in seeing that Snape had an escape route, or thought he had one. Eggplant: > > I like to think Harry is smarter than that. Snape is one of the very > few people on earth that knows about the prophesy, so although he > tells Harry and anybody else that will listen that he is of no > importance we now know he can't really believe that. Snape saved > Harry's life once and I have no doubt he'd do it again, at least until Harry kills Voldemort. And then it's a different story. Pippin: Um, if it's so important to Snape that Voldemort be destroyed, and you think the chances of that are vastly diminished without Dumbledore, then why would Evil!Snape take the vow? Eggplant: > And I hope Harry never distrusts the evidence of his eyes, whatever > tale Snape spins, Harry saw what he saw that night in the Astronomy > Tower. Pippin: If Harry believes his eyes, he will see numerous anomalies, same as the rest of us. You can invent explanations for them that don't involve innocent!Snape, but Harry hasn't bothered to do that. He isn't believing his eyes, he's only believing his prejudice. Eggplant: > One the other hand Evil Snape theories are a model of consistency and mental contortions and back flips are not necessary. Pippin: Except to explain the anomalies around the body and the time of death, the argument Hagrid overheard, the numerous other times Snape has openly disagreed with Dumbledore, and JKR's statement that Snape's patronus (which The Order knows) would give too much away. Pippin: > > Harry couldn't be told about this > > because his mind is open to > > Voldemort. Eggplant: > If Harry for whatever reason Harry could not be told of the plan then that alone would be enough to rule it out if Dumbledore is as wise as we are led to believe, even if it didn't have other holes large enough to sail a supertanker through. Because after witnessing Dumbledore's murder Harry will not rest until Snape is dead or he is. > Pippin: I happen to think Harry is smarter than that. Dumbledore knows that he was able to understand that Sirius hadn't betrayed his parents, despite the evidence of many witnesses. If Harry can't accept that his eyes can be deceived, or that his previous judgements might be mistaken, or that anger and hatred can be misleading, he really doesn't deserve to be called a hero. Pippin From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 17:42:58 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:42:58 -0000 Subject: A Somewhat Pollyanna-ish Look at Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138545 sandy wrote: >I don't consider it beyond the realm > of possibility that Snape's "AK" on top of the tower was > nothing more than the WW equivalent of special effects, and that > Dumbledore actually did the levitating, etc., himself. zgirnius: Since you (later) suggest DD legilimensed his instructions to Snape, (so that Snape would do the "special effects") why do you prefer to have DD actually kill himself (stop preserving his life, to more precisely restate your theory)? It seems you've read some of the many posts which propose Snape levitated DD, or did a failed AK, or did a successful AK, but that's not so bad since it was OK with DD, etc. and are not quite happy with them. Why not? It does get those of us who think Snape did it out of the "UV difficulty" you note below. sandy again: >The terms of the Unbreakable Vow > may be satisfied because Snape "kills" Dumbledore by doing the > thing which will enable him to feel he can turn loose of the last > little bit of life remaining to him. (This is the weakest part of my > theory; so I'm leaning towards Snape's having engineered a hollow > Unbreakable Vow that really wasn't, but had to be acted out to > maintain his cover.) zgirnius: Hmmm. I think the staged UV is even more problematic than your first solution. Based on the description of the Vow-making process that we are given, it would seem that the person doing the magic (whose wand is causing the red fiery bonds to appear) is Bellatrix. I really can't see her as being in on any such deception. I find it very hard to believe she is anything but the fanatically loyal DE she has always seemed to be. Have you already worked out a way Snape would stage this? And for whose benefit is he staging it? (It would seem Bella would be the obvious person to stage it *for*, again...) Always fun to read new speculations! From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 17:46:43 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:46:43 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138546 "colebiancardi" wrote: > Snape only knows the first part of > the prophecy. Not the full part. Snape told Dumbledore he only heard the first half but I don't believe him. I think Snape heard every word of the Prophecy but he only told Voldemort half. > Much wiser people, like Arthur, Remus, > Kingsley, can view that night in > question & conclude what really happened They were not there, Harry was, and he already knows what happened. And in the last book Harry proved to be much wiser than any of those people, wiser even than Dumbledore. He kept telling them that Snape was untrustworthy, he kept telling them that what Draco was doing in the Room of Requirements was important and sinister and that Death Eaters were going to get into the castle while Dumbledore and he were away, but they just wouldn't listen. > up until the 3rd part of the UV, > Snape thought he was getting off > with just giving aid to Draco. > When Cissa invokes the 3rd part, > sealing Snape's fate, his hand > twitches. What could he do at that > point? Yank it back and yell no? In a previous post I mentioned the tortuous contortions, gymnastics and general back flips Snape lovers must go through to make their theories fit the facts, the above is a good example of that. Eggplant From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 23 18:24:14 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:24:14 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > Sorry for the ruthless snipping, Alla, but I also noticed the very > swift turning against Snape--suspiciously fast, in fact, almost as if > it were planned and they were in on some secret that they were keeping > from Harry, as if they were acting. Slughorn (not an Order member) was > the only one to have anything like a natural reaction. ("I taught him. > I thought I knew him.") > > The rest, even Lupin, who has always attempted to be reasonable and > fair about Snape ("I neither like nor dislike Severus but he made the > wolfbane potion and he made it perfectly") suddenly acts as if he's > known or suspected all along that Snape was never loyal to Dumbledore. > McGonagall does the same thing, essentially, "Well, what do you > expect, with his background?" And yet she taught young Severus Snape > for seven years, worked with him as a fellow teacher and fellow Head > of House for fifteen years, worked with him to help expose Barty > Crouch, followed his lead in exposing Lockhart, on and on. All of > their conversations in the books have been civil, almost friendly. > > And yet, in marked contrast to Hagrid, who protests that Harry is > mistaken about Snape until he actually sees Dumbledore's body, she > immediately starts making excuses for why she trusted Snape > (Dumbledore always said he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape). > And when Harry gives the supposed reason, worded rather differently > from Dumbledore's version (which is still quite possibly not the real > or complete reason), they immediately see Dumbledore as something very > like what Draco calls "You stupid old man." On the whole, they're > acting exactly like the villagers in "The Riddle House" in GoF: "I > always knew that Frank Bryce couldn't be trusted." > > What exactly is going on here? > But I'm getting offtrack, sorry! I want to know if there's more to the > mass rejection of Snape by his fellow Order members than meets the > eye. Can they really suddenly think that he's always been evil after > all the risks he's taken for the Order? Is there more to this scene, > which strikes me as a false note in the narrative, than just a shared > mistrust of Snape by both sides and a very bad position for Snape if > he wants to continue working with the Order? > > Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that > McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? Marianne: What bothered me most about this was not so much the Order's quick leap onto the "Snape has deceived us" bandwagon, but that it is readily apparent that Dumbledore never shared his ironclad reason for trusting Snape with anyone. I firmly believe the "remorse" story that DD told Harry about is only part of the reason. Unfortunately, since that's the ONLY reason anyone has ever heard, it rings false to the people who know and understand the level of dislike that existed between Snape and James Potter. So, what to make of this? Maybe the path of the story in Book 7 necessitates that Snape is cut off from his Order allies, perhaps to set up a final confrontation or reconciliation with Harry where each is standing alone. Or maybe this is another example of Dumbledore, the man with no confidant, who has acted alone, kept a lot of his reasons close to his own vest, and simple asked people to trust him. Or maybe this is going to be one of those things that Lupinlore has been talking about lately - one of those things we shouldn't look to closely at. Marianne From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Tue Aug 23 16:54:37 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:54:37 +0200 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430B54CD.4090605@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138548 >colebiancardi: >My friend is just now reading the book - and he thinks the UV is >about killing Harry, not Dumbledore. So, view it with some fresh >eyes. He doesn't like Snape, but he noticed the twitch and said to >me "I don't know how Snape is going to get out of this one". > > > Fabian: I for one took for granted it was about Harry. It wasn't until I came to this list and read posts assuming it was Dumbledore that I thought I just read wrong. Now that I re-read, I noticed there's no hint whatsoever who it is, or what the plan actually is. Snape might be putting himself to a great risk, when he says that he knows of the plan and just agrees to help Draco. /Fabian From Sherry at PebTech.net Tue Aug 23 15:55:28 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:55:28 -0000 Subject: Snape falling for Narcissa? (was Narcissa the bait in the Unbreakable trap) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138549 Jen Reese wrote: > What does she care if Snape goes down if it saves her own blood? > People always bring up Snape and Lily, and maybe it's true, but > Narcissa seems more like the kind of woman Snape would fall for. > She's pure-blood, 'respectable', wealthy, a Malfoy Manor type of > girl. > The same idea has occurred to me. I'm relieved to find out that it's not just some distraction on my part! Snape is not a pure-blood, but he was Sorted into the house that puts the greatest emphasis on bloodlines. While Draco and his father, to name two Slytherin alumni, stress their genealogy, Snape seems never to have done anything to call attention to his! If anything, he probably downplayed it as a student. Lucius Malfoy is 6 years older than Snape (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/main/timeline_1950-1970.html), so he would have been in his last year when Snape was a first-year student at Hogwarts. I don't recall reading any specific information about Narcissa's age, but I assume she was in the same general range--hence a schoolmate of Snape and likely a fellow Slytherin resident. Snape may very well have developed a "crush" on Narcissa. I'm not so sure whether she saw anything attractive in him or simply looked down on him. Either way, she followed the expected route in her family, of marrying a fellow pure-blood. How ironic that she turned to Snape for help in Spinner's End! Amontillada From mattcbuff at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 16:05:20 2005 From: mattcbuff at yahoo.com (Matthew Buffington) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:05:20 -0000 Subject: Spells without Wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138550 After reading HBP I was very happy to receive and explanation about nonverbal spells. I had always suspected that verbal incantations were not necessary for spells, but it felt good to have a clear explanation on the subject (and that the students were actually taught it). However, I am still slightly confused about the use of spells without wands. In SS, Harry causes several magical things to happen without the use of a wand. Even Quirrel makes ropes jump out of no where to tie Harry up, seemingly without the use of a wand. Likewise in PoA, Harry doesn't use a wand to make his Aunt Marge blow up into a balloon. Now, I know that magically inclined individuals can make things happen without wands because they are upset or afraid. But, wouldn't it be reasonable that a very talented wizard or witch could train themselves to learn how to do spells without their wands? If it is possible to cast spells without a wand when emotional, couldn't one channel those emotions to produce spells whenever they wanted? Which then comes to my real point, if DD was so powerful, why does being wandless leave him so vulnerable? (This is assuming that he didn't have a plan to die or appear to die) I can also think of a several other reasons why it would be useful to use spells without wands. We know it is possible, so why can't powerful individuals channel that power whenever they wish. Being new to the group and the whole HP world, I would love to hear some theories about this issue. Mattcbuff From ushit_k at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 16:16:09 2005 From: ushit_k at yahoo.com (ushit_k) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:16:09 -0000 Subject: Justice in WW (orignally veritaserum) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138551 > Angela wrote: > This made me think of something that's bothered me ever since we > were first introduced to Veritaserum (forgive me if this was pointed > out ages ago, I'm a little behind in my reading!). Why are there any > innocent people in Azkaban at all, ever, when the Ministry has > Veritaserum at its disposal? Part of the grave and casual miscarriages of justice, prevalent in Wizardom. As Sirius mentions in GoF, he was sent to Azkaban without any sort of due process. Crouch Senior ordered him imprisioned without a trial. In Hagrid's case, I think that the prejudice against giants, meant that there was no need for any investigations (this is my view, not in the books). After all, "every one knows" that giants are dangerous. In some cases where there are investigations (like Morphin), magic was used to tamper with the memory, so Veritaserum would not have helped. Only very skilled legilimency, which is a rare and obscure branch of magic, allowed the truth to come out. Wonder why legilimency is rare and obscure, dead useful if you ask me. It should be a part of the Hogwarts curriculum. Ushit_K From ibchawz at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 17:32:31 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:32:31 -0000 Subject: veritaserum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138552 strawberryshaunie wrote: Why are there any > innocent people in Azkaban at all, ever, when the Ministry has > Veritaserum at its disposal? Surely it would be a vital part of > determining a criminal's guilt...especially in a matter that involves > a lifetime sentence? Sirius could have been cleared, ditto for > Hagrid, the DEs that "repented" wouldn't have gotten away...what > gives? ibchawz responds: The reason that the Veritaserum is not used in trials is that it can be counteracted via other potions or spells. An accomplished occlumens may be able to counter the Veritaserum effect. The Veritaserum worked on Barty Crouch, Jr. in GOF because he was in a weakened state and could not resist the effects. In a trial even if the witness (or accused) speaks the truth, there will always be that "shadow of a doubt" that they prepared themselves to counteract the Veritaserum and thus they were able to lie. Just look at the track record of the Ministry of Magic when presented the truth, but it was not what they wanted to hear. ibchawz From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 18:44:04 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:44:04 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story ( In-Reply-To: <007801c5a7d5$fa1c04a0$bec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138553 > Carol > >>But I'm getting offtrack, sorry! I want to know if there's more to the > mass rejection of Snape by his fellow Order members than meets the > eye. Can they really suddenly think that he's always been evil after > all the risks he's taken for the Order? Is there more to this scene, > which strikes me as a false note in the narrative, than just a shared > mistrust of Snape by both sides and a very bad position for Snape if > he wants to continue working with the Order? > > >>Was anyone else bothered by this scene? Did anyone else feel that > McGonagall and Lupin, at least, were acting out of character? Alla: Well, not necessarily, NO, it does not strike me as a false note in the narrative. After all, they did learn that Snape erm... just killed Albus. They are in shock, sure, but the quick turning on Snape may be the way JKR decided to soften the blow for the readers, IF Snape would turn out to be ESE. I read it as if there never was any trust between other order members and Snape in the first place. They trusted Dumbledore's word and if they are shown that Dumbledore was mistaken in his trust of Snape, they don't feel the need to trust him either. One can read it as quick turn around on fellow Order member, but to me this scene speaks ill more of Snape than anybody else. He was working with those people for many years and obviously did not manage to secure any kind of trust from them. Pooor Hagrid, loyal to the core to Dumbledore, who keeps defending Snape again and again, must have been quite a shock to him. Oh,and no I also doubt that they were acting. Lupin's wild look to me speaks volumes against any kind of staged performance. I think it is the first time in the series we see Remus' lose control, no? So, I read this scene as JKR's possible justification for Harry being right about Snape after all. She may be saying to the readers" look, nobody really trusted him in the first place, not just Harry.The only person he fooled is Dumbledore and he is now dead because of that. So, don't feel too bad if you were trusting him too" Of course I have no clue what JKR is really saying and just speculating here. :-) > Julie: > As you said, it *doesn't* matter if Snape is evil or good in the end. > McGonagall had a long-standing relationship with Snape, and spent > fifteen years as his colleague, and Lupin prided himself on his > fairness. Both knew some of the risks Snape had recently taken for > the Order. At the very least, they should have expressed some > momentary doubt that Snape could have fooled DD and everyone > else so completely. Alla: Well, I am now not so sure that Mcgonagall has long standing relationship with Snape. At the very least to me it puts to rest the idea that they are friends with Snape in private. Because if they WERE friends, I am sure that she would have been more doubtful. JMO of course. Besides, Lupin WAS defending Snape to Harry during Christmas time, no? I am wondering whether he was kicking himself for that at the end. Maybe they just don't look at it as deep as we do :-) The fact that Dumbledore is killed by Snape hand is enough for them to condemn Snape as evil. :-) Nora: > Because it's only been on Dumbledore's guarantee that they knew Snape > was also not giving information to the DEs and Voldemort about the > Order, I suspect. I think I've illustrated (or at least *tried* to) > how easily everything Snape does can be read as for his own > advancement, at the least--I suspect that's in play here, too. Alla: Yep, agreed and maybe this idea is the first one which comes into OOP members heads - that Snape IS out for himself after all. :-) > -Nora does the dance of having finished her written qualifiers Alla: Congratulations.:-) Just my opinion, Alla. From Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za Tue Aug 23 07:08:02 2005 From: Cairie.Witter at resbank.co.za (Cairie Witter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:08:02 +0200 Subject: genius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138554 Jason: I'll reserve final judgement until Harry Potter and the Temple of Doom (or whatever it will be called) comes out in a few years. If Jo can end this series better than George Lucas ended the Star Wars series, I'll call her a genius! (and seeing how it would be hard to do a worse job than Lucas did...I might as well start calling her a genius now). I wonder what JK will do after the last book in the Harry Potter series? Would she be allowed to stop writing? I know that she planned 7 books, but, did she ever dream that her books would be so popular? I really hope that she'll go on writing fantacey books, even if she starts with a new theme or some thing. Cairie From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 18:53:00 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050823185300.58670.qmail@web53111.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138555 doddiemoemoe: >He's responsible for the deaths of Lilly and James Potter. Juli: why because he heard half a prophesy? he had no idea it refered to the Potters. >He's even responsible for Harry being the chosen one. Juli: again why are you so sure of this? As I see it it's no one's fault but Voldemort's. >He's cruel to Neville, Hermione and Harry. Juli: actually I agree He's responsible for the fate of Neville's parents. Juli: Why so? Bellatrix, Barty Jr, Rabastan and Rodolphous tortured Mr and MRs Longbottom. What's Snape's part in all of these? >He made an unbreakable vow to ensure DD was killed. (or that Harry would be killed in some theories) Juli: Forgive me, but do you know for a fact that Snape knew Draco's task? Or if he did, how could he gotten away without performing the UV with Narcissa? >He let slip that Lupin was a werewolf. Juli: After keeping the secret for about 15 years, and after making Wolfsbane all year... I think he was just hurt, he hated himself for letting Sirius get away. >He let slip that Sirius was an animagus. (causing him to be an absolute prisoner in OOP--and please note that as rash, angry and irritable as Sirius became he still never revealed that Snape was a "double spy" or even that he was a DE.) Juli: Where does it say so? I though Peter Pettigrew told Voldemort about Sirius' animagus capabilities. And also, when does exactly Snape find out that Sirius is an animagus? He states he passed the information to have Vance killed. >He joined the DE's of his own accord, he didn't back out right away either(he "left" for completely different reasons than Regulus Black for example). Juli: Where's the canon to it? AFAIK we don't really know why he joined the DEs in first place. >With this much blood, heartache and sorrow....how can he possibly redeem himself?!?!? Juli: But there's so much of his life we don't know about, mostly we've seen him though Harry's eyes, and they are not objective. So maybe Snape has even redeemed himself. WHo knows! Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 19:02:12 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter... In-Reply-To: <20050823114300.70260.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050823190213.94161.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138556 Irene Mikhlin wrote: ...edited... In his talks with Bella and Narcissa, Snape mentions something like "at first I've suspected that Harry can become the next Voldemort". What if it's true, does this explanation fit the facts? Juli: I like your idea Irene. Maybe Snape was just acting the way Dumbledore did the first time Tom Riddle went to Hogwarts, maybe Snape was afraid Harry could turn into another Dark Lord and was trying to stop him... There's just so much we don't know yet, I feel we're only seeing half the picture, I believe there's so much Jo hasn't shown us yet, and it's all part of the mystery, if we knew the whole story, it'd be sooo boring. As every theory deserves an acronym, how about this: SAFE OF WHAT BAD, LATO? Snape always feared that even our favorite wizard has all it takes to become a dark lord and take over Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 19:03:42 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:03:42 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: <20050823185300.58670.qmail@web53111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138557 > doddiemoemoe: > > >He's responsible for the deaths of Lilly and James Potter. > > Juli: why because he heard half a prophesy? he had no idea it refered to the Potters. Alla: Erm... Julie, what do you think Snape imagined Voldemort would do with this information? Would go and make friends with the couple who gave the birth to the child who has the power to destroy him? :-) Granted, it is likely that at that moment Snape only heard half of the prophecy. I believe that he eventually learned the complete one, but I am inclined to believe that back there he did not hear everything. How does it change things though? By giving this information to Voldie he basically signed the death warrant to whatever couple and their baby fitted the description of the "prohecy couple and child". Am I missing something here? OK, he did not know the names, so he is at least complicit in putting to death " unnamed couple" , who definitely existed because Prophecy said so. Yep, I do think that Snape set in making chain of events that made Harry an orphan. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 12:35:28 2005 From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It's over, Snape is evil/Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <1124772199.2855.49558.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050823123528.40841.qmail@web30513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138558 Colebiancardi: > So, without bringing Snape into the argument, what is so > unbelievable about DD asking to die for the greater good > of the Order? Alla: > That is PRECISELY what is not believable to me. I believe that > JKR hits us very strongly with "murder hurts the soul" metaphor > and that is why it is not believable to me (only my opinion of > course) that "epitome of goodness" would ask anybody to hurt > their soul for any purpose. The Barmaid now: > I guess that depends on how you define murder. I could never > equate killing someone who has asked you, maybe even ordered you, > to do it -- someone who is most likely dieing anyway -- with the > sort of cold blooded murders we know Tom Riddle has committed. > How could these result in the same sort of damage to a soul? I > honestly would not call what it seems to me Snape did "murder." Cat: What if what Dumbledore asked was not "kill me" but "release me"? We know that DD was very badly hurt with finding the first horcrux. We know that there is a potion to "stopper death." While I know DD does not fear death and thinks of it as the final adventure, he is also fighting a war and knows Harry isn't ready. Perhaps DD has bought some time. Now the potion in the basin has produced some interesting effects, which we have been speculating about. DD has been seeing/feeling something. What if the potion brings death by making the victim feel everything embarrassing/painful in the people that have tried to come before? He knows he cannot die, but the emotional pain of the potion is interferring with him. That may be why he initially sent Harry for Snape, he knew he was goiing to ask to be released. He would have time to explain to Harry what he was doing. When faced with Draco, the Death Eaters, he froze Harry for his protection and so he would not interfere. When finally Snape did arrive, he asked Snape to do what was initially planned and he at that time did it to save Draco. Cat Life's like a movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending.--Kermit the Frog From loren.deal at mstservices.com Tue Aug 23 13:11:15 2005 From: loren.deal at mstservices.com (loren_deal) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:11:15 -0000 Subject: Book club questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138559 Hi all - Our book club this month is, ofcourse:-), HP's new book but we are having much difficulty finding a reading guide of sorts that we can use (I'm thinking due to the newness of the book?). Can anyone share their book club's question list or point me in a direction where we might find help? Thanks in advance for any assistance y'all can give! Loren :-) From ShylahM at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 19:18:56 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (kiroo4) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:18:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's reaction - One or them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138560 I've been wondering on this for a while and haven't see a post with it. My questions centre around why did he think this, and how on earth would he have expected it to work? It could be as simple as denial, but then why word it that way? He's already seen the method used. Chapter 28. UK pg 557 Terror tore at Harry's heart.... he had to get to Dumbledore and he had to catch Snape....... somehow the two things were linked.... he could reverse what happened if he had them both together..... Dumbledore could not have died. Tanya From lealess at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 19:22:58 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:22:58 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: >HUGE SNIPPAGE > Early in the book Dumbledore makes the commment to Harry that "being- > forgive me-rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be > correspondingly huger". Many have taken this to be foreshadowing that > DD will make a BIG mistake later in the book. You, I feel sure, would > say that this mistake was made years ago, and was trusting Snape. Fair > enough... My feeling, however, is that this mistake was made in the > course of HBP, and was to brush off Harry's warning that Draco was > celebrating some significant accomplishment in the Room of Requirements > the night DD planned the trip to the Cave. It was this mistake that > made the resolution of the Vow dilemma I propose above impossible to > carry out. A few of Dumbledore's huger mistakes: 1) Failing to effectively deal with Tom Riddle when he was at Hogwarts. 2) Failing to recognize the damage done to Severus Snape by the Prank, among, perhaps, other things. 3) Failing to intervene to protect Harry Potter when he was living with the Dursleys. 4) Failing to give Harry Potter and perhaps Severus Snape, not to mention the staff at Hogwarts and members of the Order, important information on things like how he got that creepy hand injury, and why he trusts certain people. (As for the latter, I was thinking, maybe it was Snape who asked Dumbledore to take an unbreakable vow to not reveal the true reason that led to his unstinting trust.) Did he really say "huger"? It just sounds wrong. lealess From ushit_k at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 16:26:01 2005 From: ushit_k at yahoo.com (ushit_k) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:26:01 -0000 Subject: Relative importance of Snape vs D'dore (was :Hermione saves Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138562 [Lots of snipping] > > Ushit_K: > > Even an old and waning Dumbledore is a powerful asset. colebiancardi: [snip] > No one is disputing that. However, Dumbledore wasn't going to > live forever. I do think the Snape's asset of being > a spy is much more important at this time - he is the only one > in the Order that can get *close* to Voldemort (or as close as > LV will let anyone). The battle is coming to a climax and all > the insights that Snape can gather and any havoc he can create > in the DEs' lair will be extremely important. Given that at present Snape has been seen to murder Dumbledore, I think that the members of the order would not be inclined to trust him. Losing Dumbledore to gain insights into the DEs is quite a high price. Dumbledore has after all managed to find out quite a bit about Voldemort without Snape. Of course the nub of the matter is, the evilness (or not) of Snape and if Dumbledore's death was part of his grand plan. "Ushit_K" From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 23 19:28:07 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:28:07 -0000 Subject: Narcissa the bait in the Unbreakable trap (Re: Did Snape have a choice or not?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138563 Jen: > I think Voldemort is behind the Unbreakable and Narcissa is the > bait myself. She's a desperate woman, with her husband in jail and > her only son being punished....So Narcissa plays her role, one > Bella is completely unaware of, and reels Snape in hook, line and > sinker. Notice how Bella is lured to go along to Spinner's End-- > convenient, huh? The DE most suspicious of Snape's behavior, the > one most likely to cast doubt on him and make him prove himself. Jen: Thought I'd add a little bit to my own post until someone comes along to argue :). I was thinking how this bait scenario might not work out if Snape can just legilimens the truth from Narcissa. But we don't know Snape is a superb Legilimens, only a superb Occlumens. It seems like in the evil overlord business, you would want to know what your minions are doing at all times since you can't trust them, so you become the greatest Legilimens possible. In the spy business though, your strength is your ability to keep secrets. So even if Snape is attempting to learn the truth about the Vow and its components, he would only get a stream of images much like he did with Harry--Voldemort talking to Narcissa, Narcissa thinking about Draco, etc. Nothing to betray the fact that Voldemort ordered Narcissa to go to Snape if she ever wanted to see her husband and son alive. Not to mention Narcissa's dramatic crying and clinging-- she never gave him much of a chance to look at her before she plopped down for the Unbreakable. Also, Narcissa *knew* she was going to bind Snape to an Unbreakable Vow--why else did she drag her annoying sister with her? Why risk having a witness if she's truly going against the Dark Lord's wishes? Especially a die-hard like Bella who would gladly turn her sons *and* her sister over to the Dark Lord for betrayl. Jen: > > People always bring up Snape and Lily, and maybe it's true, but > > Narcissa seems more like the kind of woman Snape would fall for. > > She's pure-blood, 'respectable', wealthy, a Malfoy Manor type of > > girl. This scene was interesting in a book fraught with the theme > > of obsessive love. Amontillada (post #138549): > The same idea has occurred to me. I'm relieved to find out that > it's not just some distraction on my part! Snape is not a pure- > blood, but he was Sorted into the house that puts the greatest > emphasis on bloodlines. Snape may very well have developed > a "crush" on Narcissa. I'm not so sure whether she saw anything > attractive in him or simply looked down on him. Either way, she > followed the expected route in her family, of marrying a fellow > pure-blood. How ironic that she turned to Snape for help in > Spinner's End! Jen: Neri pointed out the fact the UV, with the 'rings' tying two hands together, reminded him of taking a marriage vow. Poor, besotted Snape couldn't pass up the chance to be entwined with his lady love. Hehehe. Valky said the UV rings snaking around the hands were symbolic for 'Snape's hands being tied'. That's the real ironic symbolism if this scenario is true, Snape finally gets the chance to be connected to Narcissa, and instead the rings turn into snakes, trapping him in a vow he can't divorce himself from. Jen, with a new favorite quote from Potioncat: "Well, if they accept the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore (some of us don't, and we were there)..." From raganne at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 16:37:23 2005 From: raganne at gmail.com (bimbledor) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:37:23 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: <009101c5a7de$6d8afa10$bec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138564 Doddie: >> If Snape can dupe Voldemort...why not DD?!?!? CathyD: > Very true. But Dumbledore has a reason to trust Snape. A very > good reason and more than just the waffle he told Harry. And > it is obvious, to me at least, that Voldemort does not trust > anyone, not even Snape. bimbledor here: Hello, thanks for the interesting back-and-forth! I agree with Cathy, but of course, the fact that we're all pretty divided on this is IMO evidence of what a good writer JKR is. Here's my reasoning on why DD trusts Snape: the absolute, incontrovertible reason someone could be trusted to be anti-Voldemort would be that they are capable of love, that they love. I think DD must, at some point, have become convinced of that part of Snape's character, whether through Snape's motives for deeds or because Snape confessed to loving someone dearly (back to Lily?) or because DD has seen this ability to love in Snape's memories through the Pensieve. If Snape truly has loved or loves, he wouldn't be capable of AKing or of being a DE, just as HP finds himself incapable of doing the Unforgiveable Curses. ASIDE:(this of course lends credence to those who think that Snape performed the AK knowing DD wouldn't die, either by not having the intention, or by trusting DD's telling him it would be OK because it wouldn't work....BTW, has anyone else noted that DD repeats the same words Narcissa does in Ch 2, p. 33 <"...Severus...please"> with the same number of "..."s? And in the same pleading tone of voice? I took this as DD's way of reminding Snape of what was at stake, just as he reminds others of what they've promised. I also find it very difficult to imagine DD 'pleading' for anything, but not difficult to imagine him imitating a memory of Snape's) I think it's the same reason DD knows Draco can't kill: Draco, arrogant and cruel as he can be, cares deeply about his family. It is his love and fear for them that is now driving him to complete Voldemort's task, and it may have been a desire for fatherly love and admiration that initiated his agreement with V, rather than a pure desire for power. But that same ability to love stands in the way of his killing DD, in the way of Draco's tearing apart his own soul and becoming subject to the power of V. canon: pg. 511, HBP, US ed. - <"You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!" said DD loudly. "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's!"> Only DEs and Voldemort are shown as having no love in their lives: the contrast between Narcissa (who doesn't appear to be a DE) and Bellatrix in their reaction to offering up a son to the Dark Lord couldn't be clearer. DEs and V lack this greater power. Any thoughts about this theory are welcome! bimbledor, who believes in the complexity Snape From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Aug 23 19:12:13 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:12:13 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... / Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: <009101c5a7de$6d8afa10$bec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138565 > CathyD: > Oh, I've thought he did remarkably well. He got 10 of 40 students > in Harry's year to achieve an Outstanding Owl. Well, 10 that > continued on to NEWT potions. There may have been more who didn't > need NEWT level potions. Actually, first of all it was 8 students with an O, two with an E. This is out of a class that JKR tells us included approximately 140 students, not 40. Since all the Hogwarts students had to take Potions in fifth year, that means, if we allow twice as many Es as Os and twice as many As as Es (which is a reasonable estimate, at least at the schools where I've taught), that 54 students, or only slightly more than a third, even passed the OWL. This I think pretty much definitively ends the discussion of whether Snape is a good teacher. He is a miserable, poor, absolute failure as a potions teacher, hands down, end of discussion. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Aug 23 19:29:27 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:29:27 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138566 > Pippin: > Except to explain the anomalies around the body and the time of > death, the argument Hagrid overheard, the numerous other times > Snape has openly disagreed with Dumbledore, and JKR's statement that > Snape's patronus (which The Order knows) would give too much away. > How do we know the body is in any way an anomaly? We have seen very few people who have been victims of the AK, certainly not enough to be experts and certainly not enough to judge what is or is not an anomaly. Compared to the AK, a bullet is a very crude device, but it can leave any number of different effects and appearances on a body depending on range, angle, deflection, etc. It generally takes an expert to judge what is and is not suspicious, and I see no reason AKs should be different. Besides, having DD appear a certain way after death has a literary impact, which I expect concerns JKR much more than the physics of AK death. The argument is open to any number of interpretations, and can easily be used as evidence for or against any position you want to take. What times are you referring to with regard to Snape/Dumbledore disagreements? At least some of them, such as the hissy fit Snape through in PoA, speak more against Snape than for him. You are right that the Order members know Snape's Patronus. But if that is a concrete piece of evidence in Snape's favor, why doesn't anyone bring it up at the end of HBP? All of these people who know Snape's patronus readily rush to believe Harry and accept that Snape killed Dumbledore. Lupinlore From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 20:32:46 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:32:46 -0000 Subject: A Somewhat Pollyanna-ish Look at Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138567 > > sandy wrote: > > of possibility that Snape's "AK" on top of the tower was > > nothing more than the WW equivalent of special effects, and that > zgirnius: > (so that Snape would do the "special effects") why do you prefer to > have DD actually kill himself (stop preserving his life, to more My way, there was no murder OR suicide. In this scenario, Dumbledore was just finally overcome by the effects of the cave potion, and/or the ring curse, and/or old age, and he merely controlled the *timing* of his final moments; he did not kill himself. There's a difference between eking out one's last moments usefully then cooperating with the inevitable and *killing yourself*, which is suicide. (I have had a couple of ailing pets wait until my hands were on them to breathe their last, and I do not consider that they committed suicide; I have also heard of terminally ill patients "waiting" until their family was present to pass.) > zgirnius: > Hmmm. I think the staged UV is even more problematic than your > first solution. Based on the description of the Vow-making process > that we are given, it would seem that the person doing the magic > (whose wand is causing the red fiery bonds to appear) is Bellatrix. Maybe Snape's instructions to Bella on how to do it are bogus: "You'll need your wand; you'll need to move closer." But I honestly don't think that's it. I think Snape is prompting her to take action rather than telling her what action to take. So...okay. Snape didn't engineer the deception; he just sort of fell into it: read on. > I really can't see her as being in on any such deception. I find it > very hard to believe she is anything but the fanatically loyal DE > she has always seemed to be. I agree that Bella, like Renfield (from Dracula), has little volition aside from the will of the Dark Lord. (But I want to see Bella eat bugs...) > Have you already worked out a way Snape would stage this? And for > whose benefit is he staging it? (It would seem Bella would be the > obvious person to stage it *for*, again...) The magic during the U.V. seems "off" to me: the wand is Bella's, but the intent seems to be everyone else's. From the book: 'Bella watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide.' (She is pretty clearly still surprised, even awed.) Narcissa speaks, questions, and Snape answers. Where else have we seen magic where the motive energy or intent behind it was not the wand-holder's? But I don't think this is relevant, either, except as something that occurred to me that I wanted to mull over. (Examining ports in a storm, of course.) I think the answer here has been formerly posted (I don't know by who, sorry), at least in part: that the crucial bit of information in this scene is the timing of the twitch of Severus's hand. It happens right after Narcissa says, '"And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..."'. This moment is the one when Snape has the impulse to pull his away. (It's how I interpret the "twitch," anyway.) I think Snape is expecting the words that follow to be specific and devastating: "...will you kill that interfering old man Albus Dumbledore?" or "...will you kill that young upstart Harry Potter?". What he hears instead, "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" means that, while he has convinced the ladies that he knows what "the deed" is, he is essentially off the hook (and can leave his hand in place and mouth his agreement). Of course, Cissy and Bella and Draco, later, know what he has apparently agreed to. (And Draco thinks Snape is trying to steal his thunder, which goes well with the notion of the lightning struck tower, but is one more indication of what a callow child Draco actually still is.) Snape will spend the year trying to figure out what it was that he was supposed to have sworn to do, and fail. He and Dumbledore will discuss possibilities, but it will not become clear to them until later. (Dumbledore probably realizes when Katie and Ron narrowly escape deaths meant for him.) Eventually, Snape will come to find Draco holding a wand over Dumbledore atop the tower and assembled Death Eaters pointing out Draco's inadequacies and realize... And at this point, he might almost as well be bound by that Vow. Snape still has to behave as if the U.V. is what drives him, because his all-important deep cover is still the most valuable thing (aside from Harry) the side of light has. His expression of hatred and revulsion may be the only sign of his utter denial, while he realizes what Dumbledore already knows: at this point in time, even with help from Snape and/or Fawkes, Dumbledore is done for. There is no more time. (Dumbledore suspects this may turn out to be the case and immobilizes Harry. There is nothing *this* boy can do; he has to be preserved to play out his role later. And, if straits are not so dire as expected in a few minutes, releasing Harry will be trivial.) Time. For Dumbledore's life and Snape's life as he knows it, it's all run out at once, like the rubies from the Griffindor hourglass. All Snape can do is play his part, then round up Draco and the Death Eaters and say goodbye to Hogwarts and the last fifteen years. He departs--not for parts unknown, but known too well. (He could always have gone back to teaching Potions...) (Blather: who ever heard of a contract that says "under conditions known to all present parties"? The purpose of contracts is to make sure everybody knows *what* the expectations are as well as binding all parties to follow them. At the very least, contracts say something like, "per the stipulations set forth in section E, paragraph 4 of the agreement titled..." which means that all parties have a common reference point. We never see that all three parties to he U.V. actually have one with regards to that final third.) (More blather: the idea that the Vow turned into a sham because Narcissa was too afraid of the Dark Lord to, er, eschew obfuscation (avoid confusion) is absolutely delicious to me. Ah, first Voldemort is too scary for anyone to use his name; then he is too scary for anyone to clearly repeat his *orders*?!? It sounds outrageous, but it's absolutely true, isn't it? Hey, what if the name thing is due to uncertainty about how to pronounce it? "If I forget to leave off that final "t" sound he'll Crucio! me...") > Always fun to read new speculations! Fun to write, too! Sandy aka msbeadsley From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 20:37:45 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:37:45 -0000 Subject: "Seeing" the Invisible In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Lattes" wrote: > Chys: > > I'm not certain about the see the invisible part, but have you read > the book fantastic beasts? There's a Demiguise in it. Its hair is used > to make invisibility cloaks and specialists can see it. Perhaps they > can see through invisibility cloaks as well? > > This still doesn't explain the cave but in the book I thought it was > explained that he could sense the magic in it. > > Chys bboyminn: This has been discussed before and if I can find a link, I'll post it. The short version of my interpretation is that Dumbledore is an old and wise man. He is not distracted by the moment, and see and hears things that others simply block out as unimportant. In other words, Dumbledore is an extremely preceptive person. Take Harry and Ron hiding under the I-Cloak in Hagrid's hut. Dumbledore may have heard the creak of a board or the scuff of a shoe, sounds that others ignored, yet Dumbledore heard and understood them. He may have seen a sag in the floorboards where Harry and Ron were standing, felt the heat of their bodies, or may have seen a slight visual aberration in the air in front of the cloak. All these could have been the subtle clues that other less aware people ignored as mundane and insignificant, yet that Dumbledore was very aware of. Sometimes to see, all you really have to do it look. Or perhaps, there are none so blind as those who will not see. Just one man's opinion. Steve.bboyminn From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 21:12:47 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050823211248.66840.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138570 doddiemoemoe: > >He's responsible for the deaths of Lilly and James Potter. > > Juli: why because he heard half a prophesy? he had no idea it refered to the Potters. Alla: How does it change things though? By giving this information to Voldie he basically signed the death warrant to whatever couple and their baby fitted the description of the "prohecy couple and child". Juli: But it was ultimately Vodemort's choice to attack the Potters, he made the prophesy important, by hearing it he made it true. If no DE had heard the prophesy, would LV still have tried to kill James and Lily? I think so, even before the prophesy they had already fought Voldemort 3 times, they were close to Dumbledore and we already know Voldy and his DEs were trying to kill every member of the Order they could get their hands on, so there was a big chance that sooner or later the Potters were to be killed. I'm not sure whether Snape is to blame, I think he was a bit involved with the assassination attempt on Harry, he was a loyal DE (I think) and he wanted his master to succeed. The thing is, the prophesy will be fulfilled because Voldemort chose to, he chose to believe in it, and by trying to prevent his future "murder" he actually gave Harry the tools to vanquish him for good. Besides, didn't a spy (probably Snape, IMO) told Dumbledore that Voldy was after the Potters? Didn't he do everything he could to keep them save? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 23 21:13:22 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:13:22 -0000 Subject: Spells without Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138571 Mattcbuff: > Which then comes to my real point, if DD was so > powerful, why does being wandless leave him so > vulnerable? (This is assuming that he didn't have > a plan to die or appear to die) I can also think > of a several other reasons why it would be useful > to use spells without wands. We know it is possible, > so why can't powerful individuals channel that power > whenever they wish. > > Being new to the group and the whole HP world, > I would love to hear > some theories about this issue. houyhnhnm: I've wondered about that too. Dumbledore *can* do wandless magic. He changes the House decorations at the end-of-school feast in PS/SS without a wand. I can't remember other instances off the top of my head. (Skiving off at work right now; don't have my books) Maybe when it is just Draco on the tower, he wants to use persuasion rather than magic because he wants Draco to make a choice. Maybe he is too weak to take on four Death Eaters once they arrive. Or maybe he really does have a plan. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 21:28:06 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:28:06 -0000 Subject: Is Snape responsible for making Harry an Orphan /What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: <20050823211248.66840.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138572 > Juli: > > I'm not sure whether Snape is to blame, I think he was a bit involved with the assassination attempt on Harry, he was a loyal DE (I think) and he wanted his master to succeed. Alla: Who IS to blame then for the fact that Voldemort learned about Prophecy in the first place? Sure Snape was a loyal DE and sure he wanted his master to succeed and this is where his blame lies, no? Juli: > The thing is, the prophesy will be fulfilled because Voldemort chose to, he chose to believe in it, and by trying to prevent his future "murder" he actually gave Harry the tools to vanquish him for good. Alla: Yes, but "but for Snape's actions" Voldemort would have never learned about prophecy in the first place, no? Voldemort made prophecy self fulfilling, but if he did not know about it, he would not have acted in the first place, IMO. Hmm, maybe that is what JKR meant when she said that Snape is more culpable than Voldemort - he set this chain of events in action. Snape is a probable cause of what happened to Harry, IMO. Juli: > Besides, didn't a spy (probably Snape, IMO) told Dumbledore that Voldy was after the Potters? Didn't he do everything he could to keep them save? Alla: Could be or not, because Dumbledore had "spies", not one "spy". The question is does it cancel out telling Voldie about prophecy in the first place? JMO, Alla From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 21:49:03 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:49:03 -0000 Subject: Gay Harry? (was:Re: Slughorn makes me uneasy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138573 > >>Betsy Hp: > > > > However, I don't see it being a problem *because* Harry is > > sixteen years old. He's quite close to sexual maturity now and > > people around him are responding to it. Romilda Vane, Ginny and > > yes, Slughorn. > >>a_svirn: > I don't see it as a "problem" exactly. However, one of the things > that struck me after first "gulp" of HBP was the not-quite-faint > suggestion of the "wrong" kind of sexual tension. > > Now, this would be OK with me, I am quite prepared to believe that > JKR knows best (because she does when all's said and done), but I > am curious as to why she for instance describes Harry's other and > by definition less caring and less intimate relationships in > language that strongly suggest sexual rapport? Betsy Hp: I think a big part of it is that this is the "Slytherin book." We're finally getting a glimpse into the house, its members, and Harry's own Slytherin side. From our first look Slytherin is described in a more sensual manner, IMO. You get the beautiful (and don't he know it!) Blasie Zabini who may well have learned the art of seduction at his mother's knee. The folks in the Slytherin compartment are all over each other. Blasie falls over Crabbe and Goyle. Draco is draped over Pansy while she strokes his hair. They casually discuss another student's dating potential. Nothing like this occurs in the Gryffindor compartment. (I'm betting their house parties are quite different affairs from the Gryffindors, too. Less people turning into canaries, more fifteen minutes in the closet. ) > >>a_svirn: > OK for Slughorn, at least it is he who is clearly attracted (why > though it is so important for JKR?) Betsy Hp: I think the importance of Slughorn's attraction to Harry is Harry's realization of that attraction. It's part of growing up, and might possibly serve Harry well on his upcoming scavenger hunt. > >>a_svirn: > But these "false leads", so to speak, are not by any means > limited to Slughorn. Take for example Harry's "obsession" with > Draco. I am fairly certain and willing even to bet that JKR does > not envision Harry as a latent gay, and still less does she intend > to pair him off with Draco. Yet, for some reason she describes > Harry's attitude towards his old rival in a language fraught with > sexual innuendos. Betsy Hp: I agree that I'll be quite surprised if the books end with Harry and Draco flying off into the sunset. But I do think there is something important about Draco's relationship with Harry. They parallel or shadow each other throughout most of the books. With OotP it looked like the parallel had stopped. Harry grew faster than Draco and it almost looked like Draco's character was dropping out of the story. With HBP Draco catches up to Harry and there's a bit of a reversal. For the first time it's Draco ignoring Harry and Harry obsessed with Draco. I think the combination of the importance of their relationship, the overall sensuality of HBP, and the role-reversal is what gets the innuendo flying. > >>a_svirn: > We are *told* that Harry sometimes dreams of Ginny, but > we never actually *see* him doing that. Yet we see him spending > night after night thinking of Draco. We never saw him admiring > Ginny's appearance or worrying because of some changes in it. (And > he certainly never bothered to notice how pale or otherwise > distraught Cho had been, even though it would have been a good > move for an aspiring lover). Yet he takes in every change in > Draco's appearance and positively monitoring him for signs of > illness and decline. Draco gives up Quidditch and Harry looses any > interest in it. His obsession makes even his best friends uneasy. > And, really, all these "was it his imagination or did Draco really > look thinner (or paler, or sicker)" sound almost like paperback > romance clich?. I am fairly certain that it is not accidental. Yet > I am damned if I know what she means by it. Betsy Hp: But Harry doesn't need to *work* on his relationship with Ginny. Once they get together it goes swimmingly. (Probably the reason we see little of it. It's like a pleasant picnic: fun for the picnicers, boring for the observers.) His "relationship" with Draco is a huge problem though. Draco has stepped out of his usual role. Draco's supposed to be the one obsessed with Harry, and suddenly that's changed. Since Draco had never had any real sort of relationship with any of Harry's friends (he was only interested in them as they related to Harry) they don't notice when things change. I read an essay (long, long ago, so I can't source it) that talked about how the descriptors JKR used for Draco were often feminine in nature. (He blushes pink, for example.) If JKR *did* choose to write Draco in this way it's not surprising that when Harry turns his attention toward Draco some "false leads" (to borrow your phrase) spring up. Betsy Hp, who's slightly afraid that she really didn't answer the question at all From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 21:51:20 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape responsible for making Harry an Orphan /What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050823215120.71214.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138574 Alla: Who IS to blame then for the fact that Voldemort learned about Prophecy in the first place? Sure Snape was a loyal DE and sure he wanted his master to succeed and this is where his blame lies, no? Juli: Snape is to blame, but only for the fact that he told Voldemort that he heard a prophesy, that's all. Alla: Yes, but "but for Snape's actions" Voldemort would have never learned about prophecy in the first place, no? Voldemort made prophecy self fulfilling, but if he did not know about it, he would not have acted in the first place, IMO. Juli: You are right, but I still don't blame Snape for the Potters' death, he did a little thing (he told a prophesy), but from there things started to get much more bigger. Snape is to blame for staring this chain of events, not for every single event. IMO Juli (earlier): > Besides, didn't a spy (probably Snape, IMO) told Dumbledore that Voldy was after the Potters? Didn't he do everything he could to keep them save? Alla: Could be or not, because Dumbledore had "spies", not one "spy". The question is does it cancel out telling Voldie about prophecy in the first place? Juli: It doesn't cancel it, but it decreases a bit. He made a mistake, he tried to make things right but he couldn't do it. He tried real hard to save the Potters (after he was the entire reason they were in danger), but he didn't succeed, so is the effort less worthy? Not in my book. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 22:13:23 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:13:23 -0000 Subject: Is Snape responsible for making Harry an Orphan/ Redemption for Snape. In-Reply-To: <20050823215120.71214.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138575 > Alla: > Yes, but "but for Snape's actions" Voldemort would have never learned about prophecy in the first place, no? Voldemort made prophecy self fulfilling, but if he did not know about it, he would not have acted in the first place, IMO. > > Juli: > You are right, but I still don't blame Snape for the Potters' death, he did a little thing (he told a prophesy), but from there things started to get much more bigger. Snape is to blame for staring this chain of events, not for every single event. IMO Alla: I guess I just don't see how Snape could expect anything else but death to happen to people described in the prophecy. I can call Snape many names, but he is definitely not stupid and his master is sure not a merciful type. I consider "telling about Prophecy" to be huge thing, so huge in act that even if we will learn that Snape is good, I don't think he would ever be able to repay Harry for this action of his. > Juli: > It doesn't cancel it, but it decreases a bit. He made a mistake, he tried to make things right but he couldn't do it. He tried real hard to save the Potters (after he was the entire reason they were in danger), but he didn't succeed, so is the effort less worthy? Not in my book. Alla: The effort is worthy, I agree, but if it was him, I just don't see it as any kind of heroic action - just trying to correct what he did wrong in the first place. Rachel Ellington wrote: > In a JKR interview from 1999 Oct 12th, a comment is posed to her that Snape has a redemptive quality. JKR says she is stunned and the person should read Book 7 to see why she is so stunned. This may put a damper on the ESE! camp. > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099- connectiontransc.html > Alla: Hmmm, it may or it may sterngthen it. JKR specifically says here that you will have to read book 7 to understand, right? So, I can interpret it as if Snape's redemption is NOT occurred yet. Therefore it would not preclude him from being ESE or our for himself and redeeming himself somehow ( not fully, but somehow) by dying for Harry or something like that. I realised how I want the confrontation between Harry and Snape to play out. I mean I don't know about the details, but I would love it to mirror " Dumbledore and Draco confrontation scene" somehow. Say Snape is holding Harry at the wand's length at one point in time and does hesitate to kill him for some reason ( Lily's eyes,or something like that) I want Harry to tell him " It is not your mercy that matters, it is mine" We know that JKR may play off the lines from previous books ( Slughorn does tell Harry " Ten points from Gryffindor for sheer cheek" , which is playing on Snape line from the first lesson, right? So, YES, that kind of scene I would love to see. If Snape is completely ESE at the end,then of course I want him dead. JMO, Alla, who realises that she needs to shut up for today. From ragingjess at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 20:01:11 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138576 eggplant wrote: >Ok, fine, but why did Dumbledore have to die, Snape was already in good >with Voldemort? And > why did Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to Murder >Dumbledore months before he actually did > it? It all makes no sense if >Snape is good, it makes perfect sense if Snape is evil. You can never be in too good with a sociopath. (There's a sentence I never thought I'd write.) I've been reading other messages about the OoP's immediate reversal of opinion on Snape after hearing that he'd killed Dumbledore, and I believe the distrust of Snape is equally as great on the other side. About the UV - that was a mistake, probably born of arrogance (and possibly Snape's secret desire for desparate blondes). Snape may not have seen where the Vow was going - he should have, as he told Narcissa that Voldemort expected him to do it if Draco failed; he may have been lying, but that sure put the idea in her head - but once the third part was proposed, he played out the string. He was stupid to bind himself so irrevocably to a course of action (and this is true regardless of whose side he's on), but sometimes people do stupid things. Even people as calculating as Snape. > Voldemort is going to start distrusting Snape too. Tyrants are always on >the lookout for rivals and who better fits that role than the man who >killed the most powerful wizard in the world? Voldemort is not going to be >happy when he hears people say Snape killed Dumbledore and > not the Dark Lord. Based on how Voldemort has been portrayed, I'm pretty certain he'll get rid of Snape as soon as he has no more use for the man. In the meantime, I'm sure he's thrilled to get rid of his biggest rival - assuming that Snape is telling the truth about Voldemort's expectations, he's supposed to have killed Dumbledore. Besides, isn't Voldemort more concerned about Harry? He apparently asked the DEs to leave him at Hogwarts to be dealt with later, personally. (A side note: if the megalomaniac villain for whom you are working passes up the easy kill for some dramatic ego-boosting showdown later, your side will lose. *sigh* I could clean up as an evil mastermind.) > I am certain Dumbledore would not be so caviler in dismissing Harry's >abilities, with the exception > of Snape the other Death Eaters seemed no >match for Harry, and Voldemort personally tried to > kill him 5 times and >failed 5 times; nobody is that lucky he must have something on the > ball. I'm speaking strickly of hand-to-hand magical combat here, which I think is the mostly likely battle that Harry and Snape will have to fight; I think Harry's battles with Voldemort are an entirely separate issue. Harry has mad magic skills, no doubt, but in a one-to-one match with Snape, he allowed his emotions to get the better of him, and he lost. (Which also happens with Snape from time to time, but not generally in combat. It must be so much fun to be in a room with those two.) An aside: the other DEs seemed no match for any of the other teenagers, either. In fact, as a fighting force, they kind of suck. (Voldemort really got screwed in his choice of personnel. Oh well - you go to war with the Death Eaters you have, not the Death Eaters you wish you had.) > And Dumbledore must have known that even if Harry defeats Voldemort and >survives he won't > be able to get on with his life until he hunts down >Snape. If Snape is really a good guy then Dumbledore has played a very >very nasty trick on both of them by keeping Harry in the dark. I should point out, by the way, that I don't think Snape is a good guy. He doesn't seem to have much in the way of abstract moral reasoning, and I doubt he'd align himself with a group just because they were the good guys. He does, however, have a very real (if completely personal) sense of what is "right," and he acts accordingly. I can see Snape driven by his own personal sense of duty, whatever that duty may end up being. I can only assume that if Snape is deciding to play this game, he's aware of this fact. Assuming that there's not some exonerating evidence planted somewhere, he's a marked man. However, I think his odds of surviving the upcoming apocalyptic battle are not too high; he'll be too close to the center of the action. >>>After all, what's the other alternative? >Kill the other Death Eaters and tell Voldemort that Dumbledore had done it, >Snape was far more > powerful than his Death Eater pals and he had the >element of surprise. Only if he had entered the room "shooting" (what would be the magical equivalent of this?). Snape had no idea what was going on behind the door until he opened it. It took him a few seconds to put it all together. Kudos, by the way, to whoever mentioned "The Spy Who Came In From the Cold." That's exactly the model I'm using here. (I realize that this entire argument makes me seem rather amoral. I assure you that I personally do not advocate the killing, strategic or not, of elderly wizards. And I love kittens.) Yours, Jessica From ragingjess at hotmail.com Tue Aug 23 21:19:37 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:19:37 -0400 Subject: Mistakes and Grammar (was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138577 zgirnius: >My feeling, however, is that this mistake was made in the course of HBP, >and was to brush off Harry's warning that Draco was celebrating some >significant accomplishment in the Room of >Requirements the night DD planned the trip to the Cave. Yes! I think everybody but Harry (including Snape) underestimated just how determined Draco was to accomplish his task. (Who knew he'd have a sudden outbreak of competence and succeed?) Bringing the DEs into the school was not something Dumbledore had thought of, and I think that accounts for much of how that evening played out. I'm still wondering how Dumbledore planned to fake Draco's death while the castle was swarming with DEs (and when said DEs were moments away from them)...unless, of course, he meant this as a possible action that Draco could take later. I'm not certain. lealess: > A few of Dumbledore's huger mistakes: > 1) Failing to effectively deal with Tom Riddle when he was at Hogwarts. That may be the biggest mistake of the entire series. Although I'm not certain what the options were - any thoughts? >Did he really say "huger"? It just sounds wrong. It makes Dumbledore sound like a stoner, but it's right, according to dictionary.com. I can't believe I looked this up - down, grammar geek Jess! Yours, Jessica From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 22:22:22 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:22:22 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing - Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138578 Jen wrote: "*However* given the context of the story and the choice theme, we have to believe Riddle was given the opportunity to change when he went to Hogwarts, and he continued to see the power of dark magic over Dumbledore's assertions that love is more powerful. If nothing else, Riddle had the chance to notice other kinds of magic and have role models who weren't using magic to hurt others. He didn't get sent to Durmstrang, after all!" Del replies: The problem, I think, is that Riddle looked at all those different kinds of magic through the lens of what he was *already* looking for. He already had a pretty clear idea of what he wanted to be (a leader) and to achieve (immortality) when he was 11 and arrived at Hogwarts. He already had found patterns of behaviour and social interaction that gave him satisfaction (terrorising those below him, and charming those above him). So when all those different kinds of magic were presented to him, he sorted through them according to what he wanted to do and be, and how those different kinds of magic could help him achieve that. Consequently, he very logically rejected the power of love (that he never saw a reason to believe in, as he tells DD during the job interview), and he also quickly refused to limit himself to "good magic", because he could see that it couldn't serve him anywhere as well as Dark Magic could. The biggest example of that is the Horcruxes, I think. I doubt there's any "good magic" device that is anywhere as powerful to grant a kind of immortality as the Horcruxes are. As for role models, I'm afraid Tom *very quickly* found his at Hogwarts: Slytherin... Jen wrote: "Harry just needs to be in the right place at the right time, which seems to be his *own* gift, not a result of Lily's sacrifice or Voldemort's power transfer or anything else. He asks for help, and help is given. " Del replies: Agreed. Personally, I believe that Harry will vanquish LV almost by accident, while trying to do something else, like saving someone's life, or protecting a place, or something like that. As you said, it is his very own gift, to be in the right place at the right time, and to almost miraculously do the right thing to get the help he needs. Jen wrote: "I was trying to put the puzzle pieces together in the context of what JKR's intent seems to be: Riddle was not born evil, we don't have a context for a neutral category, the choice theme is at the core of the book; therefore, the logical syllogism is Riddle had a choice. " Del replies: Nah :-) First, if there is indeed no neutral category, then I'll take the books over the interview and conclude that Tom was born evil. There's no way to reconcile the books with a *normal* baby!Tom, both genetics and psychology point to a deep personality flaw that is very clearly expanded on in the books (a baby that almost didn't cry, a boy described as strange from the beginning, etc...), and there is absolutely NO sign in the books that kid!Tom ever made a choice to be evil. Second, the choice theme is still pretty unclear. I'm with Pippin on this one, in believing that JKR indeed meant to say that choices *show* what people are, not that they determine what they become. So logically all the choices that Tom made from early in his life point to a deeply flawed nature, that's coherent with the choice theme. Jen wrote: "I doubt he did see it that way. By the time DD got to him, it may have been too late for any real change. Yet he's a main character in a story chock-full of redemption, with characters evaluating and changing their strategies in response to new information." Del replies: I personally don't see the story as being "chock-full" of redemption, especially not after what Snape did at the end of HBP, if we are to take his act at face value. But that's another matter anyway. As for evaluating and changing his strategies in response to new information, I think Tom has constantly been doing just that. He did it when he got to Hogwarts, he did it anytime something new happened. For example, he canceled the whole "monster of Slytherin" plan when the threat of being sent back to the orphanage loomed in. He changed his mind about which parent must have been magical when confronted with the fact that there was no magical Riddle family. He consecrated his life to creating Horcruxes once he learned about them. And so on. The main problem, IMO, is that he NEVER received the kind of information that would make him reassess his opinion that only Dark Magic could give him what he truly wanted. Had he found a proof that Love, for example, could grant him immortality, I'm sure he would have considered giving up the whole Dark Lord project (I'm not saying he would have given it up for sure, just that he would have considered changing tracks). But I don't think that ever happened, because such proof apparently never surfaced (judging from the way he talks about love magic). Jen wrote: "JKR implies through Dumbledore's words that Hogwarts can be a chance to learn something new about magic: "At Hogwarts...we teach you not only to use magic but to control it. You have--inadvertently, I am sure--been using your powers in a way that is neither taught not tolerated at our school." (chap. 13, p. 273, US). So Riddle is exposed to a different kind of magic at Hogwarts, the kind Dumbledore professes to be more important and powerful than dark magic. Maybe DD hoped the idea of a powerful magic might catch Tom's attention. But Riddle doesn't learn what's offered at Hogwarts, instead he searches out the COS and dark magic banned from the school." Del replies: Yes Tom discovered the powerful magic that DD was talking about. But he also discovered that there was an even *more* powerful kind of magic: Dark Magic. So logically he discarded DD's petty (for Tom) moral reasons for not going after Dark Magic, and immediately set out to search the *most* powerful magic he had found. As for saying that he searched a magic that was not taught at Hogwarts... Well, the CoS *is* an integral part of Hogwarts, and it *is* a Hogwarts teacher who told him what he needed to know about Horcruxes. And DD says that Tom probably found out more about Hogwarts's magical secrets than any other student ever, and that looking for yet more of them was probably a reason he wanted to teach there. So I'd say that Tom made *more* use of Hogwarts's teaching opportunities than any other student... unfortunately. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 22:06:15 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:06:15 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't murder the Potters, LV did (was What would Snape have to do....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138579 doddiemoemoe wrote: "(Snape)'s responsible for the deaths of Lilly and James Potter. He's even responsible for Harry being the chosen one. (snip) He's responsible for the fate of Neville's parents." Del replies: I completely disagree on all those points. This is the debate of intelligence vs policy: who is responsible, the one who provides the intelligence, or the one who uses it? In my eyes, it's very clearly the one who uses it. Snape can clearly be accused of complicity in the Potters' murders, but he is not responsible for them. He brought information to LV, but he is not the one who decided how to act on that information. RL examples: * The person who leaves the door open so that a murderer can get in a place is not a murderer. * The person who buys a gun is not responsible for the way their spouse might use it. * The spy who informs the enemy army is not responsible for the decision the enemy general will make. All those people are accomplices to some degree or another, and all of them will most probably be tried and punished, either for aiding to commit a crime or for being irresponsible, or something like that. But *none* of them will be condemned for what someone else did with their information. They will be condemned for providing the information, which is a totally different thing. So yes Snape was an accomplice in the murder of the Potters, but he is not responsible for them. LV is. By the way, Snape is not the only accomplice in the Potters' murder. Without Peter, for example, LV would never have found them. And without Sirius, the Potters would most probably never have chosen Peter as their SK in the first place. Even DD could probably be dragged in this mess, as the Head of the Order of the Phoenix (one could wonder how Peter managed to hide his treason from one of the two greatest Legilimenses in the world for so long). And of course, let's not forget Trelawney: if she hadn't made that Prophecy, there would be no Boy Who Lived. As for the Longbottoms' murders, I fail to see how Snape is connected to them. doddiemoemoe wrote: "He joined the DE's of his own accord, he didn't back out right away either(he "left" for completely different reasons than Regulus Black for example)." Del replies: I'm a bit surprised at this one, because I find Snape's reason for leaving the DEs more "noble" than Regulus's. Regulus apparently backed out because he got scared, because he didn't have the stomach of walking on the path he had chosen. Snape, OTOH, apparently left it when the path took a turn he morally disagreed with. There's also the matter that Regulus apparently only tried to save his own hide, while Snape went to the enemy and tried to save an innocent. Of course, this is all based on what we know for now, and I believe that Book 7 will change A LOT of what we know :-) doddiemoemoe wrote: "With this much blood, heartache and sorrow....how can he possibly redeem himself?!?!?" Del replies: That's an illogical question ;-) If Snape did not have so much blood on his hands, he would not need to be redeemed. doddiemoemoe wrote: "Realization of one's mistake doesn't mean redemption...attempting to right a wrong may lead to redemption...but in my opinion Snape simply has too many wrongs to right in one book." Del replies: That's because you think that Snape hasn't started redeeming himself yet. But DD seems to imply that he has, when he states in GoF (paraphrase) that Snape turned against LV at great risk for himself. If Snape *truly* risked his own life to right the wrong he had done, then that should count *a lot* in estimating his degree of redemption, IMO. doddiemoemoe wrote: "and who really doesn't understand why so many loathe PP but not Snape?!?!)" Del replies: For one simple reason: Peter *betrayed* his friends, simply because he was scared for his own skin. James and Lily entrusted him with their lives and the life of their baby, and yet he chose to betray them, something that he only could do, simply in order to save his own life. That's utterly despicable IMO. Snape, OTOH, was simply an enemy soldier. I don't admire his choosing what he must have known was the morally wrong camp, I don't approve of it at all. But his choosing the wrong camp isn't anywhere as despicable in my eyes as what Peter did. Del From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 22:35:38 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:35:38 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138580 > >>Betsy Hp: > > So far I'm in agreement with Elyse. I do think Snape > > knew what Voldemort had asked Draco to do, for a couple > > of different reasons. First, Snape sounds like he's > > already tried to talk Voldemort out of using Draco. > > "If you are imagining I can persuade the Dark Lord to > > change his mind, I am afraid there is no hope, none > > at all." (HBP scholastic p.33) > >>houyhnhnm: > To me that passage just sounds like Snape is making sure that > whatever game he ends up playing with Narcissa is not going to > bind him to using influence with Voldemort. He *knows* better than > to go that route. Betsy Hp: But then why does he take the Vow? I've wavered about this scene for a while now, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that Snape knew exactly why Narcissa and Bellatrix were there. The amount of fishing he does is not much at all. And when they start talking about the "plan" Snape looks *away* from Narcissa. She's the one doing all the gazing. So I'm also doubting the legilimency or occlumency angle I think the folks not knowing what was going on were the readers (maybe Peter). No, Snape knew what the "plan" was, and moreover, he'd shared what he'd learned with Dumbledore. The two of them were already aware of Draco's danger, were working on a way to save him, and possibly working out how to take advantage of the situation and bind the Malfoy family to their side. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. For now. > >>Jen: > I think Voldemort is behind the Unbreakable and Narcissa is the > bait myself. > > The clauses in that Unbreakable came out of Narcissa's mouth so > rapidly and succintly, not much thinking going into those very > important words. Almost like they were....rehearsed. Betsy Hp: Why would Voldemort need Snape to take an Unbreakable Vow? If he didn't trust him, he'd kill him. End of problem. And Snape has already said that if (when) Draco fails he's expected to finish the job. So it's not like Voldemort was trying to spring anything on him. I *do* believe that Narcissa arrived planning on requesting the Vow and that's why she didn't stumble over the words. The third part of the Vow is only tricky if you doubt Snape's loyalties, and I don't think Narcissa doubts Snape. I think she *hoped* that Snape's loyalties to the Malfoys would influence his decision and help convince him to take the Vow. Adding to my earlier thought (see upthread) that Snape probably felt he'd already outlined the terms of the Vow, it was *Snape* who brought up that he figured Voldemort meant for him (Snape) to do the deed in the end. So maybe Narcissa thought she was just being complete about the whole thing. > >>Jen: > > People always bring up Snape and Lily, and maybe it's true, but > Narcissa seems more like the kind of woman Snape would fall for. > > Obsessive love, unrequited love, perhaps love once freely given but > taken away--it's possible one of these scenarios trapped Snape long > before Narcissa came pleading to his door. Betsy Hp: I never felt any unresolved sexual tension (UST) in this scene. I know others have, but I felt like Snape was more... embarrassed by Narcissa's tears and desperation than anything. I certainly got the impression that he *liked* Narcissa, thought well of her, etc. But I didn't get the sense that he was attracted to her at all. Also, we've seen Snape when his emotions have control of him. I wouldn't expect him to be spitting with anger (like in PoA) but if he was trying to deal with the focus of his obsession falling to her knees in front of him I'd expect a bit more emoting on his part. Instead he acts like a school master dealing with a distraught student. "Up off the floor now, and here drink this." McGonagall would have approved. And that's not really a sign of hot times ahead, IMO. Betsy Hp From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 23 23:20:02 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:20:02 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't murder the Potters, LV did (was What would Snape have to do....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138581 > Del: > > By the way, Snape is not the only accomplice in the Potters' murder. > Without Peter, for example, LV would never have found them. And > without Sirius, the Potters would most probably never have chosen > Peter as their SK in the first place. Even DD could probably be > dragged in this mess, as the Head of the Order of the Phoenix (one > could wonder how Peter managed to hide his treason from one of the two > greatest Legilimenses in the world for so long). And of course, let's > not forget Trelawney: if she hadn't made that Prophecy, there would be > no Boy Who Lived. Hickengruendler: That's true, but I, too, think, that Snape is more responsible for the Potter's murder than the other characters mentioned in your example, except Wormtail. Trelawney, for example, had no control over what she said once she fell into the trance. She was simply used as a messenger by whatever posessed her and can not be held responsible for it. Snape, on the other hand, willingly chose to give the information to Voldemort. I have no problems to believe, that at this time he didn't knew that Harry or Neville was the boy from the prophecy (how could he, both of them could have easily been born in August), but when delivering the information to Voldemort, he knew, that his deed would bring some family in mortal danger. Sirius and Dumbledore are, IMO, more to blame than Trelawney, since both of them made mistakes that played a part in the Potters' death. But at least they genuinely wanted to save them and their mistakes were some errors of judgement. This can't be said about Snape, who knew that giving Voldemort the information must have destavating consequences. But by the way: I do believe that he regretted his decision later and tried to help James and Lily. And I can't wait to learn the true reason. > > Del replies: > I'm a bit surprised at this one, because I find Snape's reason for > leaving the DEs more "noble" than Regulus's. Regulus apparently backed > out because he got scared, because he didn't have the stomach of > walking on the path he had chosen. Snape, OTOH, apparently left it > when the path took a turn he morally disagreed with. Hickengruendler: I don't think we know enough about either of them to say this. We don't have any information at all about Snape's reason to change sides (assuming he did), and the information about Regulus came from a highly biased source. Del: > There's also the matter that Regulus apparently only tried to save his > own hide, while Snape went to the enemy and tried to save an innocent. > > Of course, this is all based on what we know for now, and I believe > that Book 7 will change A LOT of what we know :-) Hickengruendler: I agree. And to be fair to Regulus, if he really is R.A.B., than he risked his life and health to destroy one Horcrux. I would hardly call this "saving his own hide". > > doddiemoemoe wrote: > "With this much blood, heartache and sorrow....how can he possibly > redeem himself?!?!?" > "Realization of one's mistake doesn't mean redemption...attempting to > right a wrong may lead to redemption...but in my opinion Snape simply > has too many wrongs to right in one book." Hickengruendler: That's not true. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was redeemed because he regretted what he did and started a new life. His previous sins were not hold against him and he did not have to do one good deed for every sin. From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Tue Aug 23 23:20:59 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:20:59 -0000 Subject: Justice in WW (orignally veritaserum) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138582 > > Only very skilled legilimency, which is a rare and obscure branch of > magic, allowed the truth to come out. Wonder why legilimency is rare > and obscure, dead useful if you ask me. It should be a part of the > Hogwarts curriculum. > > Ushit_K > Probably because it's difficult, therefore expensive, therefore seldom performed. Rather like DNA testing in the Muggle world ("If he's black, he did it, lock him up."). --Gatta From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 23:25:29 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:25:29 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138583 > > >>Jen: > > > > People always bring up Snape and Lily, and maybe it's true, but > > Narcissa seems more like the kind of woman Snape would fall for. > > > > Obsessive love, unrequited love, perhaps love once freely given but > > taken away--it's possible one of these scenarios trapped Snape long > > before Narcissa came pleading to his door. > > Betsy Hp: > I never felt any unresolved sexual tension (UST) in this scene. I > know others have, but I felt like Snape was more... embarrassed by > Narcissa's tears and desperation than anything. I certainly got the > impression that he *liked* Narcissa, thought well of her, etc. But > I didn't get the sense that he was attracted to her at all. a_svirn: Yeah, I can't discern any *UST* between Snape and Narcissa either. If there is any kind of tension during the Spinner's End scene it's between Bellatrix and Snape. Not unresolved, though. Their bickering makes it sound like it's been resolved long since and not entirely to Bella's satisfaction. From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Tue Aug 23 23:35:16 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:35:16 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil/Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <20050823123528.40841.qmail@web30513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138584 > > The Barmaid now: > > We know that there is a potion to "stopper death." > I think a lot of us are reading this too literally. I took it to mean "stopper death (poison) in a bottle until it is needed." --Gatta From merpsiren at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 22:22:52 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:22:52 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138585 Valky is a genius for picking up on this subtle and significant clue (original Message 138472) and the idea deserves to not be hidden deep in a thread message: Valky: "There is enough evidence to be going on with speculation that Snapes AK was either a fake or half hearted, Dumbledores peaceful expression, his flying up in the air, the fact that Harry's scream never left him when Dumbledore *should* have already been dead and couldn't move until approximately the moment when Dumbledores body hit the ground. There is absolute mounds of questionables hanging over that Avada Kedavra, it is absolutely *not* a given indisputable cold blooded AK we've seen one of those and it looked remarkably different." I was amazed when I read this from Valky... and really think everyone should read it carefully! Every previous description of AK is an instant death... so why not this one agaisnt DD? GOF (US ed.) pg 15 The murder of Frank Bryce: "There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the ground." GOF (US ed.) pg 216 The demonstration by Moody of AK to the DADA class: "There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound, as though a vast, invisible something was soaring through the air ? instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back, unmarked, but unmistakably dead." GOF (US ed.) pg 638 The murder of Cedric Diggory: "A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him " HBP (US ed.) pg 20 Bellatrix kills a fox while approaching Snape's home: "There was a flash of green light, a yelp, and then the fox fell back to the ground, dead." Harry and the Death Eaters saw exactly what Dumbledore wanted them to see. The assembled witnesses all heard Snape say "Avada Kedavra" followed by (HBP US ed. pg 596) "A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest."..."as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight." Blasted into the air??? Fall slowly over the battlements? What happens to Dumbledore doesn't resemble the Avada Kedavra at all. It rather appears that Dumbledore is transported either under his own power, or with the abilites of a non-verbal Snape spell... and then SLOWLY lowered off of the tower. If Dumbledore was really hit with an AK... he should have died instantaneously and crumpled atop the tower... and at the same time the spell DD had cast on Harry immobilizing him, should have also instantaneously released him. As Valky noted, it is only when DD is out of sight that Harry is released. It could be argued that DD died as a result of the potion he drank combined with the fall off the tower, or you could believe that once out of sight of his "audience" he was able to release Harry to report the "death" he had just witnessed. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 23 23:40:22 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:40:22 -0000 Subject: genius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138586 Cairie write: > I wonder what JK will do after the last book in the Harry Potter series? Would she be allowed to stop writing? > I know that she planned 7 books, but, did she ever dream that her books would be so popular? > I really hope that she'll go on writing fantacey books, even if she starts with a new theme or some thing. > > Cairie At one of her interviews someone asked JKR this question and she mentioned writing a sort of HP encyclopedia with all the backstory to all the characters. Apparently she has a lot of back notes that she could make use of. Now that would be interesting! Auria From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 23 23:50:57 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:50:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would Snape have to do.... Message-ID: <1ab.3de91db6.303d1061@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138587 In a message dated 8/23/2005 2:58:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jlnbtr at yahoo.com writes: And also, when does exactly Snape find out that Sirius is an animagus? --------------------- Sherrie here: I don't think he actually does find out that Sirius is an Animagus until the scene in the infirmary at the end of GoF, when Sirius changes back to human form in front of him. Before that, I don't think he had a clue about the Marauders' little game. Sherrie "Some kid a hundred years from now is going to get interested in the Civil War and want to see these places. He's going to go down there and be standing in a parking lot. I'm fighting for that kid." - Brian Pohanka, 1990 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 24 00:00:19 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:00:19 -0000 Subject: Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive: horcruxes In-Reply-To: <20050822221428.42745.qmail@web33809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138588 > Virginia now: > hg, I really like your theory and I really would like it to be > true. I also would like to see your complete list of inconsistencies, > but I have a question. > > If Dumbledore doesn't want Voldemort to read in Harry's mind that > Dumbledore is not really death, I suppose they wouldn't want either > that Voldemort reads that they know about the horcruxes. So why they > would let Harry to know about the horcruxes and not about the fake > death plan if they are afraid of Voldemort reading Harry's mind? > > Virginia. Good question Virginia. After thinking about it, here's my theory - see what you think. If Dumbledore fears that LV can read Harry's mind, then logically he would hide from Harry anything that he thinks LV could make use of. But if you turn this around, then perhaps DD WANTs LV to know they are looking for the horcruxes to draw him out. Canon states that LV doesn't seem to know when a horcrux is destroyed. So the only way he can check if they are still valid is to go back to them and check directly (or send someone to do it). This could work in 2 ways: 1) LV would go himself, so DD could track him down (since LV thinks DD is dead) and thereby discover where the other horcruxes are. or 2) LV may send a trusted DE, and seems his most trusted is Snape. Now if Snape really is ESG, he would naturally alert the Order and destroy the horcruxes. If as some suspect Snape is ESE, then again DD could follow him and locate the horcruxes that way. So, what do others think? Auria From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 24 00:29:16 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:29:16 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138589 > > bimbledor here: > > > Here's my reasoning on why DD trusts Snape: > the absolute, incontrovertible reason someone could be trusted to > be anti-Voldemort would be that they are capable of love, that they > love. > > I think DD must, at some point, have become convinced of that part > of Snape's character, whether through Snape's motives for deeds or > because Snape confessed to loving someone dearly (back to Lily?) or > because DD has seen this ability to love in Snape's memories through > the Pensieve. If Snape truly has loved or loves, he wouldn't be > capable of AKing or of being a DE, just as HP finds himself > incapable of doing the Unforgiveable Curses. > I too brought up this interpretation of Snape, in a somewhat different context ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137861 ), suggesting that he was far more like Harry than he was like Voldemort in this respect. Which brings me to an interesting (at least to me) speculation about Snape's actual feelings about Harry, and how Harry ended up with Snape's Potions textbook. If Snape hated James (which he pretty obviously does) but loved Lily, even from afar, he would be bound to feel rather ambivalent about their son. Could he have planted the book in the Potions classroom in the knowledge that Harry, having been turned down for his (Snape's) N.E.W.T.s class but accepted for Slughorn's, would arrive at Hogwarts without a textbook? And the hope that Harry, having acquired the book and recognized it for the treasure it was, would hang onto it as a kind of legacy from its previous owner? Is this a kind of passing of the torch? If so, it would be of a piece with Snape's other attempts to prepare Harry for the contest that lies ahead of him. --Gatta From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 00:57:51 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:57:51 -0000 Subject: Gay Harry? (was:Re: Slughorn makes me uneasy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138590 > Betsy Hp: > But Harry doesn't need to *work* on his relationship with Ginny. > Once they get together it goes swimmingly. (Probably the reason we > see little of it. It's like a pleasant picnic: fun for the > picnicers, boring for the observers.) > Antosha: I think this is an excellent point. I worked with a theatre director who loved to say, "Good marriages make bad theatre." I think Harry's relationship with Ginny (once it IS a relationship) exists in the book as a respite from all of the terror, drama and angst. But we don't need to see much of it--just enough to let us know that they're happy together and seem to be getting along, as you say, swimmingly. Now, as much as I hated the "stupid noble" routine at the funeral, it seems to me that the one thing that it set up (however artificially) was trouble in paradise. We'll see if Harry and Ginny finally have to fight through some stuff at the beginning of book seven. > His "relationship" with Draco is a huge problem though. Draco has > stepped out of his usual role. Draco's supposed to be the one > obsessed with Harry, and suddenly that's changed. Since Draco had > never had any real sort of relationship with any of Harry's friends > (he was only interested in them as they related to Harry) they don't > notice when things change. > > I read an essay (long, long ago, so I can't source it) that talked > about how the descriptors JKR used for Draco were often feminine in > nature. (He blushes pink, for example.) If JKR *did* choose to > write Draco in this way it's not surprising that when Harry turns > his attention toward Draco some "false leads" (to borrow your > phrase) spring up. > > Betsy Hp, who's slightly afraid that she really didn't answer the > question at all Antosha: I think that the sensuality of the descriptions of the various Slytherins in HBP--even Slughorn is described in voluptuary as well as voluptuous terms--served, as you suggested here, to separate them from the Gryffindors, et al, as well as to highlight the emergence of Harry's own sensuality. And to soften the image of the Slytherins: Voldemort and Snape aren't the only images of Slytherin behavior that we carry away from this book. Still, I think seeing Harry's obsession in homoerotic terms is taking it a bit far. (I think I'm agreeing with you here, Betsy.) Harry is obsessed with Draco--he, the narrator and Hermione (I believe) all describe him as such. And, as you say, it allows Harry to observe a change in Draco's demeanor over the course of the year that finally (FINALLY) transforms him from the paper-flat school bully that we knew in the first five books into something resembling a human being. But no monster/beast ever roars in Harry's chest (or any other portion of his anatomy) when Malfoy comes near, or walks by with giggling girls or lies with his head in Pansy's lap. He's not obsessed with Draco, he's obsessed, in fact with Draco's activities and his motives. He knows that Malfoy is up to something. He always suspects it, in every book-- that Snape and Malfoy are up to no good. For once, JKR has given the reader proof in the second chapter that Harry is RIGHT--Draco IS up to something and Snape IS helping him. So as sensual as the descriptions are, they are, as you pointed out, just "false leads." From lynnheath at rogers.com Wed Aug 24 00:58:53 2005 From: lynnheath at rogers.com (heathrawlings) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:58:53 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S SCAR IS NOT A HORCRUX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138591 > doddie here: > > I disagree and agree....what if Lilly charmed the last of GG's last > remaining heirlooms.... > > What if Voldemort went to GG's hollow to create his last horcrux.... > > How fitting that snape did all the spells necessary to create a > horcrux yet the only thing lilly didn't charm but protect was > harry??? > I don't think there was anything conscious that Lily did to protect Harry and make the curse rebound. She did the natural, motherly thing and threw herself in front of her child, and then something happened that had never happened before. LV couldn't have prepared for it, but neither could Lily, because she didn't know what was going to happen. > > > > JKR has said that this type of sacrifice was never made in the WW > > doddie here: > > well I don't know that she said that...seldom perhaps. > > doddie gone.. No, that's exactly what she said. Here's the quote from the LEaky Cauldron interview: "MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry? JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen. MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] - JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way. " So no one knew what was going to happen, including, one assumes, Dumbledore at that point. So instead of ruminating on this event, why don't we speculate that - if this was the first time it ever happened - is it now possible that someone, either alive or dead, knows how to do it? Maybe whomever else was in Godric's Hollow that night... > Doddie here: I'm thinking that the potions book in HBP may reveal > something about horcruxes....and Lily may have seen it.. > That's an interesting idea. I don't necessarily think that Lily would have known about it, or what difference that would make, but I could see Harry finding some information about Horcruxes (or at least perhaps instructions on sensing invisible enchantments) that will help him speed up the plot. Cause I think, in all seriousness, JKs gonna have to pull out something at the start of book seven to really kick things off. It seems like there's way too much to be done, and having the HBP stand in for DD in a quick crash course is a fine idea. JMO, Heathrawlings From lynnheath at rogers.com Wed Aug 24 01:05:36 2005 From: lynnheath at rogers.com (heathrawlings) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:05:36 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138592 Hickengruendler: > I can't see Lavender becoming one nor Hannah Abbott > nor Millicent or Pansy. The Patils were taken from school and it's > highly unsure if they will return. That pretty much leaves Susan Bones > and a few girls like Mandy Brocklehurst, Sally-Ann Perks or Daphne > Greengrass, who were hardly ever mentioned. > > I think the most likely candidate for Headboy is Ernie Macmillan. > That's strange. I didn't notice the lack of any strong female characters in the trio's year outside Hermione, but I can't think of any others ... I guess Susan is the only sensisble choice. But as for HB, you don't think that Neville's got a shot, what with McGonagall being Headmistress now and his recent (attempted at least) heroics in the two battles against the DEs? Wasn't Ernie staring blearily out the door of his dormitory as Harry and the DEs roared past? JKR is going to give Neville some compensation for being 'the-boy- who-was-nearly-king,' as she puts it. Besides, he's got a little more confidence now, and a better wand. Heathrawlings From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 01:22:45 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:22:45 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138593 I wrote this in another forum several days after HBP. Since the noise level here seem seems to be angling down towards the 100 posts per day I'm cross-posting it below. BTW, I'm looking for a cool TBAY acronym for my new S/N SHIP, in case anybody has suggestions. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Okay, not *all* my theories, speculations and predictions were shot down in HBP. Only about 99% of them. But hey, I did have at least *one* speculation that turned out correct: Bellatrix is older than Narcissa. My detailed reasoning for this prediction was originally published in a post titled "Three Black sisters on a tree" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106729 To very briefly summarize, I noticed that in the Black family tree, the names of the three sisters appear from left to right in the order: Bellatrix; Andromeda; Narcissa; and therefore I concluded that this is the order of their birth. At the time this was against the opinion of many including the celebrated Lexicon (which assumed Narcissa to be the same age as Lucius). But Dumbledore confirms in HBP that Bella is indeed the oldest of the three Black sisters, when he discusses the issue of Sirius' will and the Black estate: ************************************************************ HBP Ch. 3: "Quite," said Dumbledore. "And if such an enchantment exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to pass to the eldest of Sirius's living relatives, which would mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange." ************************************************************* The implications of this on the timeline and love life of the three sisters were rather extensively discussed in my original post, but briefly it implies, among other things, that Narcissa is several years younger than Lucius, in the same age group with the Marauders and Snape. She might be in the very same year, or a year older or a year younger than them, but probably not farther than that. In the above-mentioned post I already suggested the possibility of some interesting dynamics between Severus and Narcissa at Hogwarts, but I think HBP went much further than that. It is now obvious to me that it is Narcissa that Snape has always loved, not Lily. Lets consider the evidence: 1. In her greatest need, Narcissa comes to Snape for help. What arguments does she use to convince him? She *doesn't* use any of "you're honor bound to help your friend Lucius". She doesn't use "you're honor bound to help Draco because you're a DE/ Slytherin/ old gang member". Nope, her arguments are much more convincing than that: she calls him "Severus", she praises him, she gasps, she sobs, she clutches her long blond hair, she casts her cloak aside and falls on his sofa with trembling hands clasped, she sheds tears on his chest (no, I'm *not* exaggerating. She most canonically sheds them on his chest), she pleads, she actually kneels before him and kisses his hand, darn it. And it works. How did she know that this approach would work on a confirmed SOB like Snape? 2. And how does Snape acts in response? ******************************************************************* HBP, Ch. 2: Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as though they were indecent, but he could not pretend not to hear her. Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking down into her tearstained face, Snape stooped, seized her by the arms, lifted her up, and steered her back onto the sofa. Snape lowered himself so that he was kneeling opposite Narcissa. Beneath Bellatrix's astonished gaze, they grasped right hands. ********************************************************************* Huh? Do you believe this? Do you remember Snape *ever* treating *anybody* else gently and kindly, in the whole series? 3. Snape and Narcissa kneeling with clasped hands in front of a "Bonder", and Snape saying "I will" several times, what does this image make you think of? Wanna bet Snape was thinking of that too? 4. As Bella correctly notes, Snape could have easily slither away from this specific responsibility. None of the Death Eaters would expect him to guard Draco or act against the spirit of the Dark Lord's explicit orders. He could have easily ushered Narcissa out with some vague promises that he'll do what he can. But no, he makes her an Unbreakable Vow. The BIG sacrifice. Why? 5. Snape's real choice in HBP wasn't killing Dumbledore , it was taking the Unbreakable Vow. Once he had made *this* choice, his only apparent way to avoid Dumbledore's death was to sacrifice his own life, which would be a huge sacrifice even for a completely converted-and-reformed Snape. Even if you want to believe in Innocent!Snape and Dumbledore somehow enacting together Dumbledore 's death, the Unbreakable Vow still seems like a *huge* complication they could have easily do without. Snape knew the full implications of the terrible choice he was making. Even Bella was speechless. So was I. 6. You will notice that Snape most definitely doesn't do this for his old friend Lucius. You won't find in his words even a hint for some good word, some whiff of tender emotion for Lucius. He won't say it explicitly in front of Narcissa, but it's obvious from his comments to Bella that he despises the man. 7. What do we know about Snape's character? The man seems to be obsessed with power, status and respect. It's always "I'm the Potions master in this school", "I will not be talked to like that!" "You will address me as sir", "Yes Potter, this is *my* job". Snape was a half-blood kid sorted to Slytherin house, and a member of a gang that included mostly of pureblood nobility like the Malfoys, the Blacks and the Lestranges. Instead of using his muggle father's name, young Severus chose the maiden name of his pureblood mother for his self-invented nickname. And this name just happened to be "Prince". Yep, I believe our poor Severus is obsessed with pureblood aristocracy. He despises them, oh yes, for being so incapable and for thinking that their ancestry makes them better, but what he wants more than anything is to be an aristocrat himself, more noble and rich and powerful than his fellows DEs. He fantasizes about them looking up admiringly at him. So, whom would this Severus be attracted to? The muggle-born, independent, smart, cheeky, redhead Lily Evans, who could respect him for his knowledge and abilities? No, no, no. He'd fall for the unachievable aristocratic pureblood, rich, elegant, frail, fair Narcissa Black, who probably treats him like dirt. The Narcissa who is, naturally, promised to the older, rich, powerful, aristocratic Lucius Malfoy. Yes, the beautiful Narcissa desperately falling on her knees in front of Severus and kissing his hands, this is what our poor teenager Severus was fantasizing about when he was sitting alone in his dark bedoom shooting down flies. And when this fantasy finally comes true, he's a goner. He must show her that he is the only one who can help her, while her dear Lucius, her noble rich powerful Lucius, can't do a thing. Is JKR going to play on the S/N ship in Book 7? I'm not sure. Maybe it's not that important for the plot as a whole. It could be that JKR will keep it in the level of some dropped hints for grownups to notice, while her younger readers won't care much about characters' motives. But I think the hints are most definitely there. Neri From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 24 01:25:45 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:25:45 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138594 Betsy Hp: > But then why does he take the Vow? I've wavered about this scene > for a while now, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that Snape > knew exactly why Narcissa and Bellatrix were there. The amount of > fishing he does is not much at all. And when they start talking > about the "plan" Snape looks *away* from Narcissa. She's the one > doing all the gazing. So I'm also doubting the legilimency or > occlumency angle I think the folks not knowing what was going on > were the readers (maybe Peter). houyhnhnm: I've read "Spinners End" at least three times completely (and gone back a couple more times to check particular wording) and I think it is so ambiguous that whatever premise you start with, what takes place can be made to support it. However if DE!Snape (or any other Snape theory) can be falsified by *other* material in any of the six books--and I think it can--then it must also be false in the scene at Spinners End. If Snape is not a loyal Death Eater, then he's lying to Bella, and if he's lying to Bella, that brings everything else into question. Of course, I subscribe to DD's Man!Snape myself, so the way I interpret the scene is that Snape has been tap dancing on a tightrope from the time he first returns to Voldemort. The role of Voldemort's most trusted advisor is something he's created out of smoke and mirrors and the fact that LV keeps his supporters in the dark and distrusting one another. So, of course, he makes it clear that he can't change the Dark Lord's mind. He doesn't really have the access to LV that he claims to have and it's not something he can fake. He turns away from Narcissa right before coming out with "It so happens I know ..." and I think it is to arrange his face for the lie. Why does he take the Vow? Because he's desperate for information. And this is vital information. Any plot involving Draco has also got to involve Hogwarts. I agree with you completely about the UST, though. I didn't see any of it between him and Narcissa. I would expect Snape to handle his UST in the same cold, unemotional way he handles everything else, with the occasional trip to Knockturn Alley perhaps. From shgupta83 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 01:30:08 2005 From: shgupta83 at yahoo.com (Shobhit Gupta) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050824013008.27027.qmail@web50904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138595 Valky wrote: "There is enough evidence to be going on with speculation that Snapes AK was either a fake or half hearted, Dumbledores peaceful expression, his flying up in the air, the fact that Harry's scream never left him when Dumbledore *should* have already been dead and couldn't move until approximately the moment when Dumbledores body hit the ground. There is absolute mounds of questionables hanging over that Avada Kedavra, it is absolutely *not* a given indisputable cold blooded AK we've seen one of those and it looked remarkably different." shgupta: I want to believe that it is entirely possible for the AK curse to have been staged on the tower and that Dumbledore may possibly still be alive, but I think its unlikely. I thought Dumbledore's death was described in this manner because he was no 'ordinary' man. In all the other instances where AK was used, it was never used on anyone as great as Dumbledore. I really thought the whole thing with him falling from the tower was just to make the moment of his death more dramatic. The moment is so pivotal in the plot of the HP series (not nearly as much as Frank Bryce or Cedric's death), that it had to be described in some greater detail. In my mind it would be an injustice to Dumbledore to have him killed off in such an ordinary way. It would be the same thing if Voldemort is killed in the end of the series by simply falling to the ground after being hit by a curse. It would just make that moment too ordinary.I hope im wrong, but I think Dumbledore really did die from the curse. Shgupta. From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 02:09:58 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:09:58 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kris" wrote: > Blasted into the air??? Fall slowly over the battlements? What > happens to Dumbledore doesn't resemble the Avada Kedavra at all. It > rather appears that Dumbledore is transported either under his own > power, or with the abilites of a non-verbal Snape spell... and then > SLOWLY lowered off of the tower. If Dumbledore was really hit with an > AK... he should have died instantaneously and crumpled atop the > tower... and at the same time the spell DD had cast on Harry > immobilizing him, should have also instantaneously released him. As > Valky noted, it is only when DD is out of sight that Harry is > released. It could be argued that DD died as a result of the potion > he drank combined with the fall off the tower, or you could believe > that once out of sight of his "audience" he was able to release Harry > to report the "death" he had just witnessed. Please check out Carol's post, #134666. It is probable that Dumbledore was actually hit with a nonverbal Impedimenta from Snape. Carol's post describes the effect of Impedimenta, and it sounds like what happened to Dumbledore. (The slow lowering to the ground may be another spell, perhaps the one Dumbledore used when Harry was attacked by Dementors while playing Quiddich.) Interestingly, JKR never describes the color of light associated with Impedimenta--I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were green. An obvious question is, how can you verbalize one spell but cast another spell nonverbally? JKR may give us a foreshadowing of this when Harry *hears* the word "Expelliarmus" but *experiences* a Freezing Charm. Throughout the rest of the scene, Harry continues to hold his wand, so the Expelliarmus did not work on him. However, he does remain rigid and immobile--the result of a successful nonverbal Petrificus Totalus cast by Dumbledore. Merrylinks From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 02:33:24 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:33:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138597 Finwitch wrote: > > I just wonder... if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, how did he manage > to fool Voldemort? Carol responds: I think the whole point of the first half of "Spinner's End" is to tell us exactly how he's been fooling Voldemort. he tells Bella what he told LV--with a few additions (his supposed betrayal of Sirius, which we know was Kreacher's doing, and of Emmeline Vance, which is probably Wormtails' information, given that Wormtail and Emmeline Vance were in the original Order and Snape, spying for DD on his own, wasn't). In any case, we're free to examine his story for ourselves. I find it to be composed mostly of useful half-truths and carefully thought out lies (e.g., pretending that he denied being a DE just like all the others who escaped Azkaban the first time around or that he didn't know that Quirrell was in league with LV). Also, Snape is, as we know, a superb Occlumens--quite possibly so good that LV doesn't know he's using Occlumency (contrast Draco's clumsy attempt in HBP, which Snape detected immediately--try that with LV and you'll be lucky to get by with a Crucio). And maybe LV's Legilimency isn't as good as he thinks it is. When Snape asks Bellatrix if she thinks he can fool LV, the greatest Legilimens of all time (at least in LV's opinion), of course Bella says no. But I'll bet the real answer is yes. Carol From marilynpeake at cs.com Wed Aug 24 02:56:30 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:56:30 -0000 Subject: genius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138598 Cairie wrote: > I wonder what JK will do after the last book in the Harry Potter > series? Auria wrote: > At one of her interviews someone asked JKR this question and she > mentioned writing a sort of HP encyclopedia with all the backstory to > all the characters. Apparently she has a lot of back notes that she > could make use of. Marilyn responds: I recently read an interview in which J.K. Rowling said that she may eventually write a completely different type of book under a pen name. I wonder if the real author could be kept a secret. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 24 02:56:14 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:56:14 -0000 Subject: FILK: Sectumsempra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138599 Sectumsempra To the tune of Summertime Blues by Eddie Cochran THE SCENE: Snape's office. HARRY does detention to a 50s beat HARRY When messin' with the Prince, you're gonna get some Prince-heat I used his spell on Draco, it made him into mincemeat Cause that curse, it got a-cuttin' and so badly he bled Myrtle says, MYRTLE: Mercy me, you is killed him dead. HARRY I see it's a spell I shouldn't use a'tall `Cause there ain't no curse like the Sectumsempra Well, ol Sevvy Snapey scowled and he gave me quite a vexed look Then he went and read my mind and said get all my textbooks Well. I switched my book with Ron, but that Snape knew I fibbed: SNAPE: Cause you ain't got no name that sounds like Roonil Wazlib HARRY: I shoulda known better than a-joinin' no brawl With a mean old spell like a Sectumsempra For the rest of the year, Snape'll make me do detention And he hopes Gryffindor will be knocked out of contention I looked for sympathy, but they said: CHORUS OF GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS: Ace! We'll be a-blamin' you if we end in last place HARRY: I can't play with Ginny, I've a case of the blahs All account of a curse known as Sectumsempra Sectumsempra... Sectumsempra ... Sectumsempra.... - CMC (wondering what ever became of the vasty army of HP4GU filk mavens) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 02:58:39 2005 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:58:39 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138600 > > Merrylinks writes: > "An obvious question is, how can you verbalize one spell but cast > another spell nonverbally? JKR may give us a foreshadowing of this > when Harry *hears* the word "Expelliarmus" but *experiences* a > Freezing Charm. Throughout the rest of the scene, Harry continues to > hold his wand, so the Expelliarmus did not work on him. However, he > does remain rigid and immobile--the result of a successful nonverbal > Petrificus Totalus cast by Dumbledore." I thought that it was Malfoy who cast the Expelliarmus? HBP AE pg 584 "The door burst open and somebody erupted through it and shouted, "Expelliarmus!" Then, further down, "Then, by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore's wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and understood...Dumbledore had wordlessly immobilized Harry, and the second he had taken to perform the spell had cost him the chance of defending himself." It is an amazing idea that perhaps the words mean nothing as Moody told his class in OotP, "You could all point your wands at me, say the words and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed" (or something similar...my OotP is in with my sleeping daughter)...and thereby, you could cast a completely different spell in your mind. But, I tend to think that the evidence points to the fact that Snape really did kill DD. His look of hatred toward DD (didn't Harry himself relate it to how he felt force feeding DD the potion in the cave?) and the fact that he hates being called a coward, I think means he killed him for real. Now, maybe he wanted really badly to be performing another spell and that's how it happened? Maybe Snape really does think he killed DD and subconciously he didn't? Wouldn't that be the twist of a century? Snape believes he really did kill DD, he's not really dead, and somehow they face eachother again? Anyway, it seems crazy, but I love this idea that Snape cast another spell non verbally, while saying the words AK. Rachel From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 03:06:25 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:06:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Pettigrew and the Spy (Was: Snape didn't murder the Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138601 Del: Even DD could probably be dragged in this mess, as the Head of the Order of the Phoenix (one could wonder how Peter managed to hide his treason from one of the two greatest Legilimenses in the world for so long). Bookworm: This question has occurred to me, too. During CoS, he calls Harry into his office simply to ask if there is anything Harry wants to tell him. Of course, everything Harry doesn't want to say enters his mind before he tells Dumbledore there is nothing. Later we learn that Dumbledore, as a Legilimens, really could "see" it. 1. Did Dumbledore not use Legilimens to find the spy? 2. Was Pettigrew an accomplished enough Occlumens for Dumbledore not to detect him? 3. Did Dumbledore know and use Pettigrew to pass misinformation? 4. Any other possibilities? Ravenclaw Bookworm From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 03:23:19 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:23:19 -0000 Subject: Spells without Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Buffington" wrote: > Which then comes to my real point, if DD was so powerful, why does > being wandless leave him so vulnerable? (This is assuming that he > didn't have a plan to die or appear to die) I can also think of a > several other reasons why it would be useful to use spells without > wands. We know it is possible, so why can't powerful individuals > channel that power whenever they wish. > > Being new to the group and the whole HP world, I would love to hear > some theories about this issue. Valky: What a Spring board for Good Snape that one is! LOL :D You make an excellent point, Matt. Although, I earlier saw I post that quoted from OOtP. One of the OWl examiners was raving about Dumbeldore being ble to do amazing things *with a wand*. SO there is sepcultive territory to cross hen considering what DD can or cannot do without one. However, that all said, in politeness to my old friends the fencesitters and the ones who fell down on the ESE side after OOtP ;P If DD can do amazing things with a wand, then it really dumbs down Harry's reliability as a witness to the fact that DD [paraphrased]"..used up his last chance to defend himself to freeze Harry" Yes? A baboon brandishing a stick (;D) would be more creative than *that* if he really planned to get away alive, right? And what about Snape walking in on that mess? Here's Dumbledore, the great wizard the only one Voldemort feared, who Snape had worked for 15 years!, slumped in a corner, with Harry standing behind the door, (yeah if Draco saw the other broom then Snape did), having done apparently nothing to capture the useless bunch of wizard school dropouts standing in front of him. Could this really make any sense to Severus? If he was really ESE wouldn't he be at least a little wary that *he* was walking into a trap. It makes for a whole new twist on Snape stopping to gaze at Dumbledore for a moment. This scene is just so completely not cut and dry, I could poke holes in it all day. But I think I might just leave it there and see what the other curious minds here make of these inconsistencies.. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 24 03:30:42 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:30:42 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138604 Jen: > I think Voldemort is behind the Unbreakable and Narcissa is the > bait myself. > The clauses in that Unbreakable came out of Narcissa's mouth so > rapidly and succintly, not much thinking going into those very > important words. Almost like they were....rehearsed. > Betsy Hp: > Why would Voldemort need Snape to take an Unbreakable Vow? If he > didn't trust him, he'd kill him. End of problem. And Snape has > already said that if (when) Draco fails he's expected to finish > the job. So it's not like Voldemort was trying to spring > anything on him. Jen: Snape is the only DE placed at Hogwarts who can follow through with the plan to kill DD when Draco fails. And Voldemort can't risk Dumbledore slipping through his fingers--he's the last major barrier (in his mind) to Harry. If he doubts Snape in any way, and he certainly has reason to regardless of what Snape tells Bella, Voldemort has to have insurance the job will get done. Snape makes that statement about finishing the job before he knows what the job is, and before he takes the UV. That looked like posturing to me. Betsy: > Adding to my earlier thought (see upthread) that Snape probably > felt he'd already outlined the terms of the Vow, it was *Snape* > who brought up that he figured Voldemort meant for him (Snape) to > do the deed in the end. So maybe Narcissa thought she was just > being complete about the whole thing. Jen: I saw Narcissa as more manipulative in the scene than you read her, I think. Perhaps it came from the way she treated Bella before getting to Snape's, but when she laid out that last portion of the vow, I read cold calculation in it. > Betsy Hp: > I never felt any unresolved sexual tension (UST) in this scene. I > know others have, but I felt like Snape was more... embarrassed by > Narcissa's tears and desperation than anything. a_svirn: > Yeah, I can't discern any *UST* between Snape and Narcissa either. > If there is any kind of tension during the Spinner's End scene it's between Bellatrix and Snape. Not unresolved, though. houyhnhnm: > I agree with you completely about the UST, though. I didn't see > any of it between him and Narcissa. I would expect Snape to > handle his UST in the same cold, unemotional way he handles > everything else, with the occasional trip to Knockturn Alley > perhaps. Jen: I'm really surprised no one felt there was sexual tension there, makes me wonder about my read on things 'cause shipping isn't my expertise for sure. But I was very much convinced of the tension when reading Neri's post on another forum, which he posted here today: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138593 Betsy: > Also, we've seen Snape when his emotions have control of him. I > wouldn't expect him to be spitting with anger (like in PoA) but if > he was trying to deal with the focus of his obsession falling to her > knees in front of him I'd expect a bit more emoting on his part. > Instead he acts like a school master dealing with a distraught > student. "Up off the floor now, and here drink this." McGonagall > would have approved. And that's not really a sign of hot times > ahead, IMO. Jen: He has emotional control during the scene, but look where he ended up! On the floor, kneeling in front of Narcissa and sealing his doom. What in the world would make him do that? He doesn't need to prove himself to either of these women if Voldemort trusts him as much as Snape says he does. He can look out for Draco without an UV. Something motivated him to make this huge error and I'm just searching for what that could possibly be. Jen From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 03:44:20 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:44:20 -0000 Subject: The Unbreakable Vow: John 21:15-19 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138605 Hi everyone. This is a bit of a left field punt I considered the UV and how it might or might not have played out in HBP. One scenario which is popular here reminded me of something so I searched it out. It's a quote from the bible that when translated into greek takes on special kind of meaning. Just to be clear I am only intending to highlight the passage, and the mystery of its greek translation which is fascinating compared to HBP. I am not trying to espouse that Snape and Narcissa are a metaphor for these two people from the bible. Jesus: "Do you agape me?" Peter: "You can perceive (whid) I philia (am bonded) to you." Jesus: "Do you agape me?" Peter: "You can perceive (whid) I philia (am bonded) to you." Jesus: "Are you philia (bonded) to me? Peter: "You can perceive (whid) everything, so you know (gnosis) that I philia (am bonded) to you." This is some of the passage of John 21:15-19 translated using Greek. As you can see on the third time the question is asked it has changed from unconditional Love to Bonding (conditional) Love. This echoes the Unbreakable Vow. The first two requests from Narcissa are something we wuld be aware that Snape would do anyway - Watch over Draco and Protect him from Harm. Narcissa's last request is the bonding request, and again it is like the passage from John translated in Greek the request is no longer do you Agape me but are you Philia (bonded) to me. It is possible that the mystery of the Unbreakable Vow might be somewhat derived from this ancient play on words. If so then, we have two options as to ho to read Snapes final answer. We can read this as: You *can* percieve everything so that it tells you I am bonded with you. or: *You* can perceive *everything* so you should know anyway that I am bonded with you. But when has Snape ever let anyone perceive *everything*. I'll go with the first answer. Valky Remembering, Cedric Diggory From ichangeling at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 03:52:12 2005 From: ichangeling at gmail.com (Indigo Changeling) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:52:12 -0500 Subject: Dumbledore, Pettigrew and the Spy (Was: Snape didn't murder the Potters) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138606 On the question of how Peter managed to hide his treachery from Dumbledore, master Legilimenses, I think that it a matter of under-estimating Peter. How much one-on-one contact did Dumbledore have with the original order members? From reading the books, I have the impression that others view Peter as a tag-a-long to Sirus, James and Remus. Kind of like an after thought, its just natural he would be there, but not spectacular enough to get attention in his own right. Neither Sirus nor Remus saw Peter as the potiential spy. They didn't give him enough credit to see him as a suspect. I doubt Dumbledore would go proding around peoples minds without a hint or worry. And I just don't see Peter having that much contact with Dumbledore other than a perphiral part of the group. Though I don't see Neville and Peter's character is similar (Neville really is brave and loyal), I do see some similarities in how they are underestimated and how they might have fostered that underestimation on purpose. Changeling (Newbie, 28yr old female Texan, enjoying list immensely) From cfb3 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 03:38:40 2005 From: cfb3 at yahoo.com (cfb3) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:38:40 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138607 > Kris: > > Blasted into the air??? Fall slowly over the battlements? What > happens to Dumbledore doesn't resemble the Avada Kedavra at all. > cfb3: If Snape didn't kill Dumbledore, why didn't the Unbreakable Vow kill Snape? Perhaps, like the Room of Requirement, the Unbreakable Vow requires a certain specificity. If Snape was bluffing in Spinner's End, if he didn't really know Draco's assignment, then perhaps the wording of the Vow wasn't specific enough for it to take effect. (On the other hand, the UV spell's light show rather suggests it worked.) cfb3 From marilynpeake at cs.com Wed Aug 24 04:19:32 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:19:32 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138608 Kris wrote: Valky is a genius for picking up on this subtle and significant clue (original Message 138472) and the idea deserves to not be hidden deep in a thread message > Valky wrote: "There is enough evidence to be going on with speculation that Snapes AK was either a fake or half hearted, Dumbledores peaceful expression, his flying up in the air, the fact that Harry's scream never left him when Dumbledore *should* have already been dead and couldn't move until approximately the moment when Dumbledores body hit the ground. There is absolute mounds of questionables hanging over that Avada Kedavra, it is absolutely *not* a given indisputable cold blooded AK we've seen one of those and it looked remarkably different." Marilyn responds: I agree with Valky's take on this. And I would like to add that, from the moment that Dumbledore brings Harry to the cave, Dumbledore seems to already know a great deal about what will happen there. Dumbledore knows things that others do not. In Chapter 26 "The Cave", the following passage seems important: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Yes, this is the place," said Dumbledore. "How can you tell?" Harry spoke in a whisper. "It has known magic," said Dumbledore simply. Harry could not tell whether the shivers he was experiencing were due to his spine-deep coldness or to the same awareness of enchantments. He watched as Dumbledore continued to revolve on the spot, evidently concentrating on things Harry could not see. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dumbledore proceeds to quickly understand the nature of the magic all around him. Later, he seems to understand Draco Malfoy and Snape when they threaten him. All along, Dumbledore seems to understand the situation and to not be alarmed by it. I can picture Dumbledore explaining to Harry in Book # 7 what really happened, why it happened, and the reasons why he had to appear dead and defeated. In Chapter 29 "The Phoenix Lament", when Professor McGonagall enters Dumbledore's office, J.K. Rowling writes: "And a new portrait had joined the ranks of the dead headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts: Dumbledore was slumbering in a golden frame over the desk, his half-moon spectacles perched upon his crooked nose, looking peaceful and untroubled." It is as though things have gone according to plan, and Dumbledore is satisfied with that. I understand that Dumbledore might be at peace with his own death. But, if things had gone terribly wrong in terms of Dumbledore having been defeated by the Death Eaters and thereby increasing Voldemort's power, I don't think that Dumbledore would be so peaceful. Dumbledore was passionate about fighting the good fight against Voldemort and his followers. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ "The Golden Goblet" Newsletter, now available at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marilynpeake From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 04:20:20 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:20:20 -0000 Subject: Did Ollivander know about the Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138609 I just had an idea that may or may not be important--it came to me in a flash so it felt like an inspiration, anyway! Ollivander says in SS/PS, in a scene which I think foreshadows a lot of future events, "He who must not be named did great things. Terrible, but great." He can't mean all the murder and mayhem LV has caused, which qualifies as terrible but not great. Can he possibly know about the Horcruxes, which appear to be very complicated (and certainly terrible) magic, going beyond what anyone else has done and consequently qualifying (from Ollivander's somewhat amoral perspective) as "great"? Any thoughts about how much Ollivander might know and how it ties in with his disappearance? Carol, using up her last post for the night and hoping someone will answer! From juli17 at aol.com Wed Aug 24 05:24:23 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:24:23 EDT Subject: Snape didn't murder the Potters, LV did Message-ID: <216.7980b5c.303d5e87@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138610 doddiemoemoe wrote: "and who really doesn't understand why so many loathe PP but not Snape?!?!)" Del replies: For one simple reason: Peter *betrayed* his friends, simply because he was scared for his own skin. James and Lily entrusted him with their lives and the life of their baby, and yet he chose to betray them, something that he only could do, simply in order to save his own life. That's utterly despicable IMO. Snape, OTOH, was simply an enemy soldier. I don't admire his choosing what he must have known was the morally wrong camp, I don't approve of it at all. But his choosing the wrong camp isn't anywhere as despicable in my eyes as what Peter did. Del Julie says: There's another reason. Snape left the DEs and has done several things to aid DD and the Order, including helping keep Harry alive several times. While Snape has no small amount of unpleasantness in his character, he remains ambiguous, with a real chance that the good in him outweighs the bad (should he prove to be DD's man). No such luck for Peter. After hiding for 12 years, he immediately returned to LV, and a short time later proceeded to KILL an innocent teenage boy without the least hint of remorse. Hmm, now who should we loathe without reservation--the one who cold-bloodedly murdered a teenage boy and has shown not a single shred of goodness, or the one who has protected another teenage boy on several occasions and has committed observable acts of good? (Please note: I'm not saying that a time couldn't come in Book 7 when Snape may be as worthy of loathing as Peter, but doubt about Snape's character remains, whereas none does about Peter's.) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From djklaugh at comcast.net Wed Aug 24 05:32:30 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:32:30 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil /Ruthless Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138611 Alla wrote: > Nope, I think that he needed Snape to heal him. > Just me of course, > Alla. > zgirnius: (snip) > As I see it, the potion in the cave is something Dark and dangerous > like the curse of the ring, not just a (relatively) simple matter of > making an antidote. So I agree, DD was expecting Snape to heal him, > with his expertise in both DA/DADA and Potions. Only, if Snape is > dead from breaking the UV or fallen in battle with several DEs, he is > no longer available. If like the ring curse it requires relatively > quick action to counter, death for DD seems a likely outcome. > > Of course, you are right that we do not know how dangerous the potion > and its effects were, how timely an intervention was required to save > DD, or how widespread the knowledge to heal the damage is. I feel > that at this point the data we have are insufficient to give a > complete explanation of all the actions and observed facts presented, > so we all need to make some reasonable-seeming assumptions to come up > with coherent theries. To me, the idea that the potion is of > sufficient lethality to require very timely intervention, by Snape, > seems reasonable given we are told by DD himself that such was > necessary in the case of the Ring Horcrux. > > If it turns out to be some Potion Sluggie could whip up an antidote > for in no time, I will not have difficulty accepting that Snape > killed DD solely to save himself. (Or even, if other ambiguities are > clarified in ways that support such a theory to my mind, that Snape > killed DD out of loyalty to LV/the DEs.) > > I would not imagine that DD would want Snape to kill him merely to > get Snape closer to LV, that does seem a bit much. But I can > definitely see the events of the Cave and the Tower putting DD in a > corner where that starts to seem the best way out of a disastrous > situation. I am not in the DD told Snape to kill him before Snape > ever took the UV camp...More likely, I would guess that Snape saw the > options available and the likely consequences, and had concluded the > best option (in the sabe that is saves the most lives/souls and > removes a considerable danger for Hogwarts quickly) would be to kill > DD and clear out with the DEs, and DD legilimensed this in the > moments they gazed at each other after DD said "Severus". Then the > follow up "Severus, please" would have been to confirm to Snape that > DD agreed with this analysis of the situation. Oh I agree! The potion in that bowl definately is very dangerous. My speculation is that it is at least part of what creates an Inferi (see also my responce to Gail in post 135340). And I think this would be one of those "fate worse than death" situations for DD. (Knowing him as we do, I for one, think he would think that being at the command of LV to be the ultimate horror... and would that not be devastating to the whole WW if DD became LVs minion). I also think that he absolutely knows that Snape can undo this because I suspect he and Snape (and maybe he and other OOP members) have tried over the years to think of every possible situation that might arise in their battles against LV... and draw up contingency plans. While I don't think the OOP knew all of DDs plans or maybe just not all the details, I do think that anything that might involve potions or the most nasty, dark, and evil applications of Dark Magic was Snape's pervue. DD might even have had Snape keep an antidote to this always available for administration at a moment's notice. Unfortunately for DD the moment he needs this antidote desperately ( because I am also sure that there is a time frame involved... that the antidote must be given quickly or it will not work) the DEs are all over the castle and he can not get to Snape fast enough. So it came down to either letting Draco kill DD and split his young soul there by creating an opportunity for yet another Dark Wizard to arise. Or continuing to exist as an Inferi... Or implementing the "worst case scenario ultimate back up plan".... Snape has to kill DD.... and I would guess it has to be done in a certain way to insure that his body can never be used in anyway by LV or any other Dark Wizard who might come along. To my way of thinking DDs "Severus, please" is a reminder to Snape of his promise to carry out this plan, and an order to "please get on with it, you know what I have asked you to do" much as he has said to Snape and others at other times. And IMO Snape's hatred and disgust at doing this is just that... hating to be in this position, hating to carry out this action, hating LV and the circumstances that make this the only option, disgust at the thought of what DD could become if he did not act, disgust at having to be the agent for DD's death, and hidden under all that(for Snape can not allow anyone one to know his inner feelings as to do so would certainly spell his death at the hand of LV), great sorrow and anquish at the loss of his mentor. Deb (aka djklaugh) From juli17 at aol.com Wed Aug 24 05:34:49 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:34:49 EDT Subject: "Stopper death" (was Re: It's over, Snape is evil/Ruthless Dumbledore?) Message-ID: <15.4b5eec54.303d60f9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138612 > > The Barmaid now: > > We know that there is a potion to "stopper death." > Gatta says: I think a lot of us are reading this too literally. I took it to mean "stopper death (poison) in a bottle until it is needed." Julie says: That was actually how I read it originally--that Snape could stopper death in a bottle. It was the more literal translation to me--or, at least, the obvious one. It's only after reading 6 HP books, and seeing how JKR constantly ignores the obvious to present the less obvious that I've come to question whether "stopper death" could mean "stop death in its tracks" (i.e., a potion that would keep one who should die from dying for a period of time, whether it be weeks, months or indefinitely). One thing I do know is not to make any assumptions when it comes to JKR. In fact, I don't know why there couldn't be a potion that would stopper death in a bottle, as well as a potion that would stop death in its tracks. And it is possible that Snape used the second one on DD when he nearly died from the ring horcrux. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 05:46:30 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:46:30 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138613 Kris wrote: > Valky is a genius for picking up on this subtle and significant clue > (original Message 138472) and the idea deserves to not be hidden > deep in a thread message: Valky: Wow!, Thanks Kris, I really can't take ll the credit for unearthing these particular clues. I'd like to pass the genius title around the boards to the other keen-eyed readers but I'm not sure I can remember everyone who has contributed to finding those inconsistencies with the AK. The faked AK is based on the two spells at once thing I unearthed from the end of OOtP battle between DD and LV, so I'll hang on to the "g" or the "e" ;D Kris: > Harry and the Death Eaters saw exactly what Dumbledore wanted them > to see. The assembled witnesses all heard Snape say "Avada Kedavra" > followed by (HBP US ed. pg 596) "A jet of green light shot from the > end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest."..."as > Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed > to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly > backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of > sight." > Valky: Now this I definitely believe. It's a faith thing, Harry really needs to have a bit more faith. After he saved the Philosophers stone Harry realised that Dumbledore, funny man that he was, had allowed him to face Voldemort if he could, had expected him to unravel the mystery and go after the stone. After the fact, Harry has unbelievable faith in Dumbledores strange but enlightening way, but before the fact Harry's faith is tested. He goes after the stone, Dumbledore expected him to do this he expected Harry to question the job that his elders he had done, was it enough?. And when Harry gets to the mirror, this is when he realised what Dumbledore had done, and his faith in Dumbledore helped him, the faith that he realised afterwards that he always needed to have in Dumbledore. Everyone believes in DD to some extent. They trust in him to *know* Snape, they turn to him for answers and guidance. Those who know DD the man, have faith in him, and I do not think that this excludes Snape. When Snape entered the Astronomy Tower what was he really surveying with the sweep of his black eyes. Could one so long associated with and trusted by Dumbledore, someone who DD had asked to risk his life for the greater good, someone who had been following orders from Dumbledore (strange, mysteriously nonsensical, orders like the ones in the cave) for 15 years. Take the cave and multiply it by 500 and imagine, if you walked into the Astronomy tower as Snape what would *you* think your were looking at. My take, Snape didn't walk into the tower thinking things were exactly as he (Snape) wanted them. 15 years of working for Dumbledore I think would give one the sense that any scene you walked into no matter where Dumbledore was standing, if he was there, then it was exactly how Dumbledore wanted it to be. If it wasn't, then he would change it till it was. If he'd wanted the stupid Brother and sister DE caught and Draco frozen in Petrificus Totalis then he would have done it without a second thought and would be sitting next to the battlements drinking tea with Harry. It's about faith. How much faith does Dumbledore ask? Enough that you'll force poison through his protesting lips? Enough that you'll watch him die on a rooftop? Snapes patronus is, I think, a Unicorn. The Unicorn is a loyal faithful, innocent creature. But it is also capable of terrifying violence. Valky The Lion and the Unicorn, were fighting for the crown. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Aug 24 06:01:55 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:01:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Next Head Boy and Head Girl Message-ID: <9b.663ca5a0.303d6753@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138614 In a message dated 8/23/2005 8:04:19 AM Central Standard Time, medea_09 at hotmail.com writes: wrote: > That means Hermione probably won't become Headgirl. I find this quite remarkable from her, to give up the post she fairly certain would have got, to help Harry.< (snip) To which Princess Kat replied: Really? Can you REALLY see Hermione not going back to school? Yes, I agree that Harry won't be a student at Hogwarts next year. And Ron? Well, he never really was the academic sort. Now Melissa: Hermione however knows that there are more important things than "books and cleverness" Things like "friendship and bravery." You do have a point about needing someone on the "inside" but I just can't see Hermione being the one any longer. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 06:20:06 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:20:06 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > I've lent out my copy of CoS, but my vague memory is that Harry was > strangely interested by the diary. Would someone with a copy to > hand check to see if I'm remembering correctly? It goes like this: Filch makes a commotion over the flood in the Myrtle's bathroom, and Harry and Ron (Hermione is stuck as a catgirl in the infirmary) investigate, finding Myrtle upset about having had a book thrown at her. Harry starts to pick it up and Ron warns him it could be dangerous but he persists (to the point of reaching around Ron to get it), examining it. He finds "T.M. Riddle" written in it and is disappointed that there's no other writing. He sees that it was bought at a shop on Vauxhall Road and surmises the owner must have been muggle-born. Ron suggests using Myrtle for target practice, but Harry pockets it instead, and later... "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, whey he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he *knew* the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as if it were a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and half-forgotten." This is (in the wake of HBP) one of the most tantalizing sections in the series, if you ask me. Either Harry is experiencing an affinity as side-effect of having had some of Voldemort's powers transferred to him, or the diary has a spell on it to make it attractive in this way, or Harry really is a horcrux and is sensing the relationship between the part of Voldemort's soul he carries and the one in the diary. Sandy aka msbeadsley From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Aug 24 06:44:02 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:44:02 -0000 Subject: Mistakes and Grammar (was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jessica Bathurst" wrote: zgirnius: > >Did he really say "huger"? It just sounds wrong. Jessica: > It makes Dumbledore sound like a stoner, but it's right, according to > dictionary.com. I can't believe I looked this up - down, grammar geek Jess! Geoff: It sounds odd but Dumbledore is being grammatically correct. In English, monosyllabic adjectives form their comparative and superlative forms in -er and -est. It is only multisyllable words which use "more" and "most". I think it's because we rarely use these forms with "huge". When something is described as being huge, you are not usually making a comparison,; it's a definitive statement - similarly with enormous. So Dumbledore is certainly using the language unusually. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Aug 24 08:45:40 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:45:40 -0000 Subject: Next Head Boy and Head Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heathrawlings" wrote: > > But as for HB, you don't think that Neville's got a shot, what with > McGonagall being Headmistress now and his recent (attempted at > least) heroics in the two battles against the DEs? > > Wasn't Ernie staring blearily out the door of his dormitory as Harry > and the DEs roared past? > > JKR is going to give Neville some compensation for being 'the-boy- > who-was-nearly-king,' as she puts it. Besides, he's got a little > more confidence now, and a better wand. > > Heathrawlings Hickengruendler: I can't really see Neville as Headboy. I love him, he's my favourite character, but Headboy? First of all, it would be a bit problematic to have a headboy who can't remember the passwords. It's possible that his memory became better, since we didn't hear anything about this in book 6, but still. And also, in spite of everything I still can't see him being respected enough by the other students to be a good enough Headboy. And in Ernie's defense, he just didn't realise the Death Eaters were there, and it's hardly surprising. The DA was practically dead for more than a year. If I were a DA member, I, too, wouldn't have checked my coins anymore. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 10:21:18 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:21:18 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138618 > Jen: He has emotional control during the scene, but look where he > ended up! On the floor, kneeling in front of Narcissa and sealing > his doom. What in the world would make him do that? He doesn't need > to prove himself to either of these women if Voldemort trusts him as > much as Snape says he does. He can look out for Draco without an UV. > Something motivated him to make this huge error and I'm just > searching for what that could possibly be. Ceridwen: I can buy a Snape who had a crush on Narcissa during school. She was (still is?) pretty, girlie, Pureblood, Slytherin, rich. Everything Snape would, just by reading the books, want. I did feel a tension there, but nothing overt. Something underlying. If Snape had a crush on Narcissa, that was in the past. He may have transformed that now-unsuitable feeling into a different sort of affection. A lot of rejected people do. But, he may also have seen Lucius's sudden trip to Azkaban as a foot in an old and, until that moment closed, door. He is certainly being used as a surrogate 'man to the rescue' by Narcissa in this scene. Otherwise, it would have been her and a free Lucius discussing what to do. Narcissa probably wasn't blind to the crushes boys had on her in school. Just her name brings a fragile beauty to mind. And, I'll bet she thought it was no more than her due. So, playing off both the flower and Narcissus in mythology. As a Slytherin, she would use these old feelings to advantage, and like beauties might, she may not have closed all doors completely (to old beaux feelings, not suggesting Adulterous!Narcissa here), so she would have advantage when she needed to use her former suitors/crushers. Or, it could just be that she turned on the charm when she went to Spinner's End. That is definitely a beautiful woman's most powerful and assured weapon. Ceridwen. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 24 10:30:07 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:30:07 -0400 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) Message-ID: <005d01c5a896$cd01b890$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138619 Nora said: >>Here's a line of questioning to take: do they KNOW for sure what he's been doing for the Order? We know that Snape reports and brings things in, but given what we now know of Dumbledore's working style, I doubt other Order members were deeply in on what Snape is doing. CathyD: We know very little about what went on with the original Order, but with this second group, many of them are in the meetings when Snape gives his reports. The first meeting, when Harry arrived at GP, Snape was there giving his report and Dumbledore was not. I would think there were more of this sort of meeting, those who could be there attending, than meetings with the whole gang. >>And there's another thing both of y'all are probably forgetting about. I doubt that most members of the Order, or people who you're talking about having known Snape for some time, knew that Snape was a DE (ex or not, let's leave it open) who left the fold. CathyD: I can't speak for Carol but I am not forgetting it at all. I'm quite certain McGonagall knew Snape's past. She'd been a teacher at Hogwarts for 40 years. While she wasn't a member of the Order the first time, I'm certain she could read the papers, and must have at least heard the outcome of some of the trials in which Snape's name was mentioned in connection with Dumbledore. I can very easily see her approaching him (as she did at the beginning of PS) to ask if it were true, especially once Snape came to work at the school. Arthur and Molly Weasley would know because of Arthur's connection with the Ministry. As to Lupin, I'm not sure. Sirius didn't seem to know, but then, I doubt Sirius spent much time reading the local rag. He may only have found out at the end of GoF, but by then, despite their differences, Snape had spent a year preparing Wolfbane potion for Lupin. Lupin, while trusting Snape because he trusted Dumbledore's judgement, also trusted him because of this. Trusting someone on another's say-so will only get you so far. McGonagall and Snape had a history of 15 years working together as teachers and Heads of House. She certainly should have trusted Snape for her own reasons by then, as well as for Dumbledore's judgement. She certainly didn't seem to think Snape's last set of detentions for Harry was out of line. Then suddenly everything she *knows* about him is thrown away on the say-so of a 16 year old boy who, in all honesty, does not have the best track record for telling the truth...or for telling it without gloss, at least...and who is well known for his animosity towards Snape. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 24 10:58:43 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:58:43 -0400 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... / Snape as teacher Message-ID: <006d01c5a89a$cbad7660$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138620 Lupinlore said: >>Actually, first of all it was 8 students with an O, two with an E. This is out of a class that JKR tells us included approximately 140 students, not 40. Since all the Hogwarts students had to take Potions in fifth year, that means, if we allow twice as many Es as Os and twice as many As as Es (which is a reasonable estimate, at least at the schools where I've taught), that 54 students, or only slightly more than a third, even passed the OWL. >>This I think pretty much definitively ends the discussion of whether Snape is a good teacher. He is a miserable, poor, absolute failure as a potions teacher, hands down, end of discussion. CathyD: Actually, there were 12 kids in that class. "...afternoon's double Potions....dungeon classroom that had, for so long, been Snape's. When they arrived in the corridor they saw that there were only a *dozen* people progressing to NEWT level....four Slytherins made it through, including Malfoy. Four Ravenclaws were there, and one Hufflepuff, Ernie Macmillan" plus Hermione, and Harry and Ron the two E's. (HBP pg 173 Can Ed) There are, by JKR's own words, 40 students in Harry's year. "Way before I finished "Philosopher's Stone," when I was just amassing stuff for seven years, between having the idea and publishing the book, I sat down and I created 40 kids who enter Harry's year. I'm delighted I did it, [because] it was so useful. I got 40 pretty fleshed out characters. I never have to stop and invent someone. I know who's in the year, I know who's in which house, I know what their parentage is, and I have a few personal details on all of them. So there were 40. I never consciously thought, "That's it, that' s all the people in his year," but that's kind of how it's worked out." ( - Part of that interview on July 16, 2005). She also said she would post the info on the two *missing* Gryffindor girls on her website. And we still have, as I said, an unknown number of O's and E's who did not go on to NEWT level potions for whatever reason. Plus those who achieved an A (passing grade) but could not advance to NEWT level Potions. I still say Snape did pretty well as a teacher. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 24 11:45:20 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:45:20 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138621 Neri wrote: It is now obvious to me that it > is Narcissa that Snape has always loved, not Lily. Lets consider the > evidence: > she calls him "Severus", she praises him, she gasps, she sobs, she > clutches her long blond hair, she casts her cloak aside and falls on > his sofa with trembling hands clasped, she sheds tears on his chest > (no, I'm *not* exaggerating. She most canonically sheds them on his > chest), she pleads, she actually kneels before him and kisses his > hand, darn it. And it works. How did she know that this approach would > work on a confirmed SOB like Snape? Potioncat: You know, since you put it this way, I wonder why the publishers didn't have this scene on the cover? Could have been a real bodice ripper! What that wouldn't have done to sales. > ******************************************************************* Neri: > HBP, Ch. 2: > >...He looked away from the sight of her tears ...but he could not pretend not to hear her. > > Looking down into her tearstained face, > Potioncat: Harry and Cho; Severus and Narcissa. Unlucky in romance, one more thing for the two of them to have in common. These two are so much alike it's no wonder they don't get along! > ********************************************************************* > Neri: > Huh? Do you believe this? Do you remember Snape *ever* treating > *anybody* else gently and kindly, in the whole series? Potioncat: Yes, actually I do. Don't you remember when Snape fed poison to Trevor instead of feeding it to Neville? That absolutely warmed my heart! > >Neri: > 3. Snape and Narcissa kneeling with clasped hands in front of a > "Bonder", and Snape saying "I will" several times, what does this > image make you think of? Wanna bet Snape was thinking of that too? Potioncat: Actually, I think Snape's thoughts would have been more along the lines of the image conjured when he dragged her to the sofa... I snipped the request for a TBAY name for this. But, here it is: T-BAY WARNING Neri sits on a bench looking out over the bay. The sun is bright the sky is blue and the water is full of debris. He hears footsteps and looks up to see Potioncat approaching. She is wearing a Girl Scout Uniform (US version, adult leader) and she is singing a silly song, as Girl Scouts often do. She has a Happy Meal bag from the local Fast Food joint. "...that's the best type of candy, candy. The man who made it was a dandy, dandy..." She pauses, "I hear you're looking for a name for your new craft." "Yeah," he says, "What is that song you're singing?" "A camp fire song." she bursts into song again,"L O double L I, P O P spells LOLLIPOP." Thinking quickly, Neri interupts the noise, "What's in the bag?" "This is for Snape!Son. He's usually around here somewhere. He weathered the storm...sort of." I like your theory. I'm not clear on the idea of Narcissa being promised to Lucius. It doesn't seem to me that the 'romances' in canon have any aspect of anyone being 'promised' to anyone. But I can buy the idea that Snape lusted after...ermed loved Narcissa. I can also agree that she chose or was chosen for Lucius. That still leaves the possibility that Severus turned to someone else on the rebound and his family was harmed by LV. But that part doesn't matter in this case. Actually, I have a name for your craft. There's LOLLIPOPS you see, which is the opposite of your theory. The sweet, Muggelborn on one hand, the bitter, Pureblood on the other. So of course, your theory's name should reflect that, but it has to speak to the nature of the affection. Here it is: Cissy And Severus Talking Old Romance. One Ill-fated Love! CASTOR OIL. Although it would help if you knew the song...maybe someone more clever than me can write a FILK for it." Potioncat took a deep breath to resume her song, but Neri, ever the fast thinker, jumped up, "Thanks, but I just remembered I have to be somewhere else." "OK, Think about it!" she called. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 11:44:54 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:44:54 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: <005d01c5a896$cd01b890$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138622 > CathyD: > I can't speak for Carol but I am not forgetting it at all. I'm quite certain McGonagall knew Snape's past. She'd been a teacher at Hogwarts for 40 years. While she wasn't a member of the Order the first time, I'm certain she could read the papers, and must have at least heard the outcome of some of the trials in which Snape's name was mentioned in connection with Dumbledore. Alla: Except Snape's trial may not have been mentioned in the papers. I think this was the closed one and Rita Skeeter was on the other one, so I agree with Nora - Minerva may have not known, considering that DD does not give much information, I doubt that he would have shared this bit. CathyD: > Trusting someone on another's say-so will only get you so far. McGonagall and Snape had a history of 15 years working together as teachers and Heads of House. She certainly should have trusted Snape for her own reasons by then, as well as for Dumbledore's judgement. She certainly didn't seem to think Snape's last set of detentions for Harry was out of line. Alla: Well, it appears she did NOT have her own reasons to trust Snape after so many years, no? Looks like it was only Albus' word after all. And we don't know what she thought in general of Snape's teaching tactics towards HArry and Neville. Who knows, maybe she objected vigorously to Dumbledore every time she thought Snape was out of line, but Albus just waived her off. CathyD: Then suddenly everything she *knows* about him is thrown away on the say-so of a 16 year old boy who, in all honesty, does not have the best track record for telling the truth...or for telling it without gloss, at least...and who is well known for his animosity towards Snape. Alla: But he DID tell the truth in what matters - Snape killed Dumbledore. THAT action would certainly be enough for her to mistrust Snape :-) So, I would say animosity is wel justified. Personally, I am just happy that Harry is not alone in that animosity anymore. :-) JMO, Alla From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 12:06:00 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:06:00 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: <005d01c5a896$cd01b890$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138623 Cathy: > Trusting someone on another's say-so will only get you so far. McGonagall and Snape had a history of 15 years working together as teachers and Heads of House. She certainly should have trusted Snape for her own reasons by then, as well as for Dumbledore's judgement. She certainly didn't seem to think Snape's last set of detentions for Harry was out of line. Then suddenly everything she *knows* about him is thrown away on the say-so of a 16 year old boy who, in all honesty, does not have the best track record for telling the truth...or for telling it without gloss, at least...and who is well known for his animosity towards Snape. Finwitch: Well, as for Harry's telling the truth - ok, so he has lied - to Snape mostly - BUT - in PS, Harry tried to tell McGonagall about someone stealing the stone, she didn't listen and it turned out that Harry was right and was nearly killed for it; Harry didn't try to deny his guilt about the car, and he was truthful about that Diary- business... after saving a student she had been ready to sacrifice and I bet drawing Codric Gryffindor's sword meant *something* to her; Harry was right about Sirius AND Buckbeak being innocent -- and what of Pettigrew, unregistered animagus being there first with Percy, then with Ron - and she never noticed; GoF Harry was truthful about not putting his name in the Goblet etc.; OOP, Harry kept on telling the truth despite of having the back of his hand being cut open nearly every night for it - and Harry's *still* bearing the scars for that nasty Quill of Dolores Umbridge! Besides, it wasn't just Harry, but Hagrid as well, and Harry did tell the *full* story, and he *had* told McGonagall of his suspicions on Malfoy earlier... Harry was immobilised by Dumbledore, out of sight under invisibility cloak and witnessed Snape cast the Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore. And I think Dumbledore IS dead. I've also given up all hope that Sirius is somehow not dead. Why? Because of Sirius' Will and Kreacher's reaction. Kreacher would know if Sirius wasn't dead... and for Dumbledore- Umbridge wasn't able to get past the Gargoyle, remember? No one could get in there with Dumbledore away... I sort of think that McGonagall wouldn't have been able to call it *her office* had Dumbledore not been truly dead. But, as Dumbledore said in CoS, he's only truly gone from Hogwarts when none there is loyal to him (words Harry retold to the new minister) and in PoA - those we love never truly leave us. And purely artistic view - Harry's loyalty even when Dumbledore's dead - would lose its meaning if it turned out that Dumbledore is NOT dead. Besides, I'd think Harry would wonder if he did NOT see the green light, the one thing he remembered from his parents' death despite of all the lies the Dursleys told him. Finwitch From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 24 12:43:16 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:43:16 -0000 Subject: Maths! (was Re: What would Snape have to do.... / Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: <006d01c5a89a$cbad7660$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138624 > Lupinlore said: snip > > >>This I think pretty much definitively ends the discussion of whether > Snape is a good teacher. He is a miserable, poor, absolute failure > as a potions teacher, hands down, end of discussion. Potioncat: "End of discussion"? On this list? Are you kidding? There is never an end of discussion. A pause, perhaps...from time to time. > CathyD: > Actually, there were 12 kids in that class. snip > There are, by JKR's own words, 40 students in Harry's year. snip > And we still have, as I said, an unknown number of O's and E's who did not go on to NEWT level potions for whatever reason. Plus those who achieved an A (passing grade) but could not advance to NEWT level Potions. I still say Snape did pretty well as a teacher. Potioncat: We spent a great deal of time after OoP discussing the outcome of Potions OWLs. We had lots of ideas of what Snape's reported high pass rate revealed; how the grades would be expected to come out; and who we expected to see in the class. It wasn't as important to JKR, or at least to plot, for us to get the actual numbers. Oh wait, did I say "actual numbers" and "JKR" in the same sentence? (I'm laughing with JKR, not at her.) If we do want to nitpick, and most of us do, I would say we'd have to do the numbers based on the 40 students she writes about in order to get the ratio. Certainly we have over a quarter of known students who earned E or better. I have no idea how that stacks up in standardized testing, but it looks pretty good to me. I want to echo CathyD in saying we don't know how many more made E or O but chose to drop Potions. Remember, they are taking courses based on career needs. Even I would think no one would take Potions for the heck of it. My point, if I have one, is this: We haven't been told how well his class did, or how well any other classes did. It just isn't that important to the plot. However, even if all 40 or all 140 students passed with an O, I'm not sure the method is worth it. Except to an "any means to the end" Slytherin. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 12:45:11 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:45:11 -0000 Subject: Ok I'll have one of those LOLLIPOPS - Snape the Unicorn. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138625 Many moons ago I rhetorically asked the group to tell me why Snapes Patronus would be a Unicorn. The notion struck me quite alarmingly like thunder whilst I was reading some mythology for a HBP prediction I was working on at the time. I'm rather ashamed that I only halfheartedly pursued the line of questioning, because if I had put a decent effort into it, I might have realised that the Unicorn would be unfairly entrapped by a virginal (white and golden) princess holding a silver apple, and been able to predict it accurately in Tigers challenge, I could have told you that the Unicorn cared for and guarded children. In short if I had done half the job right, many of us here might have been able to predict Snapes moves with startling accuracy. But enough of the would have could haves.. Snapes Patronus hasn't been revealed yet, so we could still make a big impact on the next round. This time I *will* do my homework. :D Snape has a Unicorn Patronus. This much is certain to me. But what else can this mean. Well the legend of Ki'lin (Chinese Unicorn) fortelling the birth of Confucius says that the Unicorn comes to foretell the birth of wise and great men, Ki'lin came to Confucius' mother and gave her a piece of Jade from his mouth, she knew that his appearance was an omen of good. She tied her ribbon around his horn. This Ki'lin was caught by hunters many years later still with the ribbon tied around his horn. Confucious wept over the dead Ki'lin knowing that it was a bad omen and that in the ribbon was his past. This may be echoed in Hp with a story of Lily and Snape. Snape is the one who had overheard the prophecy, and it was he who told Dumbledore and the OOtP of LV's intent to kill Harry Potter. This seems to sit well with the legend of our unicorn coming as an omen of a birth. The things we would be yet to see, however, are Lily's token given to the Unicorn, Harry would most likely look upon this after Snape has died and realise that it belonged to his mother, and the piece of Jade, which could actually have something to do with Lily's eyes. It could be that it was those eyes that made Harry and Lily , LV's target. Jade is symbolic of Royalty, so what exactly did the Prince give to beautiful Lily to signify the birth of her special child? Unicorns in HP according to Hagrid, prefer the touch of the ladies *giggle* but while they're young they are less wary of the males. According to variety of legends they are solitary, gentle (usually) and especially concerned with protecting innocents, but also very fierce, pliny's account holds them to have a deep bellowing voice, they are held to be swift and accurate (and even merciless)in battle. Finally the horn of the Unicorn is said to be able to neutralise poison. Now wheres that Lollipop.. I'll just hold it, not sure I'll find it quite that delicious. Valky From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 13:03:02 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:03:02 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: <005d01c5a896$cd01b890$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > CathyD: > I can't speak for Carol but I am not forgetting it at all. I'm > quite certain McGonagall knew Snape's past. She'd been a teacher > at Hogwarts for 40 years. While she wasn't a member of the Order > the first time, I'm certain she could read the papers, and must > have at least heard the outcome of some of the trials in which > Snape's name was mentioned in connection with Dumbledore. I think that other posts have already brought it up, but I agree-- there's really no evidence that Snape's particular trial was a matter of public record. Given the way that Dumbledore vouches for him, I doubt Snape got run through what Lucius Malfoy et al. did, with the public accusations and public 'clearings'. Moody would have known (because he was there), but he's pretty absent in HBP, and we don't get much of his view on Snape in OotP either. > McGonagall and Snape had a history of 15 years working together as > teachers and Heads of House. She certainly should have trusted > Snape for her own reasons by then, as well as for Dumbledore's > judgement. She certainly didn't seem to think Snape's last set of > detentions for Harry was out of line. Then suddenly everything she > *knows* about him is thrown away on the say-so of a 16 year old boy > who, in all honesty, does not have the best track record for > telling the truth...or for telling it without gloss, at least...and > who is well known for his animosity towards Snape. The other conclusion, if you don't want to start trying to explain away the inconvenient details, is that while she had a working relationship with Snape, *she did not have a deeper, more personal one*. It seems that no one did. And this speaks to all the RL and other examples (okay, I confess--I did watch the entire Law and Order: SVU marathon instead of studying) whereby people think they know someone, who ends up capable of what seems uncharacteristic and hideous actions. Knowing someone as a colleague and teacher is not the same as knowing them as a person in the deeper sense. And that is what we now can (with a lot of backing) postulate was the Snape/all the teachers at Hogwarts relationship. I'd hesitate to even call it friendship. It's often advanced by the DDM!Snape advocates that Snape is a very, very good actor--good enough to fool Bella et al., and good enough to have been a spy within Voldemort's camp, et cetera. This can surely also then be applied to his relationships within Hogwarts. And then Snape goes home for the summers, and does whatever. Harry's basic honesty has been brought up in this thread, as well. We've seen people quick to change their minds and be wrong--and we've seen people quick to change their minds and be right (Lupin in the Shack--shhh, Pippin!). It could go either way, but the latter option does not strike me as wildly OOC and a drastic betrayal of Snapeykins, not at all. It means that we have to re-examine what we assumed without solid proof about Snape and McGonagall. -Nora ponders doing some review for orals...nah... From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 24 13:04:28 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:04:28 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin trust Snape? (was: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story ) In-Reply-To: <005d01c5a896$cd01b890$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: As to Lupin, I'm not sure. Sirius didn't seem to know, but then, I doubt Sirius spent much time reading the local rag. He may only have found out at the end of GoF, but by then, despite their differences, Snape had spent a year preparing Wolfbane potion for Lupin. Lupin, while trusting Snape because he trusted Dumbledore's judgement, also trusted him because of this. Marianne: But, how much trust did Lupin really have for Snape? Their relationship was outwardly cordial from Lupin's side in PoA, although I'm sure he knew that Snape was not at all happy about him being there. I'm thinking mostly of Lupin's little Christmas discussion in HBP with Harry: First is Lupin's statement of neutrality regarding Snape. "I neither like nor dislike Severus." He then mentions the bad blood between James, Sirius and Snape. So, Lupin is saying that he can accept Snape's lasting bitterness towards him because of his friendship with James and Sirius. But, this is more descriptive of Snape's emotions, than Lupin's. Lupin never mentions things he dislikes about Snape; he only mentions the tangled web of Snape/James/Sirius. Then Lupin brushes off Harry's mention of Snape's outing him as a werewolf. "That news would have leaked out anyway. We both knew he wanted my job..." Lupin then goes on to say..."but he could have wreaked much more damage on me by tampering with the potion. He kept me healthy. I must be grateful." So, Lupin knew full well that Snape was agitating against him, but is saying that was a fair price to pay in return for getting a properly mixed potion. Why then doesn't he say "I'm grateful for that." Or "I appreciated that Snape's skills made my transformations easier." No, he says "I *must* be grateful." It rang wrong to me - more like a child who is repeating a lesson to himself that he really doesn't want to learn. What I heard Lupin doing was putting the most positive spin on this that he could. The preface to all of this was Lupin's declaration "Dumbledore trusts Severus and that should be good enough for all of us." Lupin knows he owes Dumbledore a lot - for allowing him to attend Hogwarts, for giving him a job, for accepting him as a human being when most of his society does not. I think Lupin is willing to give DD a huge benefit of the doubt. However, Lupin mentions the bad blood that existed between James, Sirius and Snape twice. He doesn't say that he shared their schoolboy hate. But, I wonder if he isn't somehow, in the back of his mind, being tugged between DD's trust of Snape, which is simply stated but not explained, and the reasons for James' and Sirius' abhorence of all things Snape, which, while I'm sure went way over the top at times, at least had the advantage of being explained out in the open for Lupin. Then, in the hospital scene Lupin hears not only about DD's death at Snape's hands, but also Harry's interpretation of what DD told him about the reason he trusted Snape. And, it hits Lupin like a ton of bricks. Not only is Dumbledore dead, apparently murdered, but he knows now that James was right, Sirius was right, Harry was right - Snape should never have been trusted. I think part of Lupin's loss of control in the hospital scene was his realization that what he had always suspected, but had fought against accepting because of his allegiance to Dumbledore, was true. Snape had been working for Voldemort all along. Marianne From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 24 13:19:18 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:19:18 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138628 Fascinating! You me had totally convinced while I was reading. But. If your analysis is correct, then the idea of Snape in love isn't horrible, merely pitiable. houyhnhnm From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 13:33:28 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:33:28 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clarinut76" wrote: > > > Merrylinks writes: > > "An obvious question is, how can you verbalize one spell but cast > > another spell nonverbally? JKR may give us a foreshadowing of this > > when Harry *hears* the word "Expelliarmus" but *experiences* a > > Freezing Charm. Throughout the rest of the scene, Harry continues to > > hold his wand, so the Expelliarmus did not work on him. However, he > > does remain rigid and immobile--the result of a successful nonverbal > > Petrificus Totalus cast by Dumbledore." > > I thought that it was Malfoy who cast the Expelliarmus? HBP AE pg > 584 "The door burst open and somebody erupted through it and > shouted, "Expelliarmus!" Then, further down, "Then, by the light of > the Mark, he saw Dumbledore's wand flying in an arc over the edge of > the ramparts and understood...Dumbledore had wordlessly immobilized > Harry, and the second he had taken to perform the spell had cost him > the chance of defending himself." That's correct. The example was meant to show that the spell you hear may not be the one you experience. On another branch of this thread Valky said, "I'd like to pass the genius title around the boards to the other keen-eyed readers but I'm not sure I can remember everyone who has contributed to finding those inconsistencies with the AK. The faked AK is based on the two spells at once thing I unearthed from the end of OOtP battle between DD and LV, so I'll hang on to the "g" or the "e" ;D " I checked out the battle in the Ministry of Magic and, sure enough, I found this: Dumbledore brandished his wand in one, long, fluid movement -- the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke; the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass -- That example shows two spells cast successfully at the same time. So, while we don't have a perfect parallel to an *unsuccessful verbal spell* cast simultaneously with a *successful nonverbal spell*, all done *by the same person*, we probably have enough evidence that such a thing can be done. During the night I thought of another aspect to Snape's supposed killing of Dumbledore. Let's assume that the AK was actually a nonverbal Impedimenta. If Snape blasted Dumbledore off the tower and let him fall to his death, he still killed him, right? But one part of the description does not match the effect of an Impedimenta: "For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight." If we were only seeing an Impedimenta, we would expect Dumbledore to be blasted into midair and then fall to earth in the usual way. This sounds more like POA and the Dementors on the Quidditch pitch: "Dumbledore...ran onto the field as you fell, waved his wand, and you sort of slowed down before you hit the ground." If everyone's eyes were focused on Dumbledore as he was in midair, Snape could have done something similar after the Impedimenta. Granted, this does not explain the trickle of blood from Dumbledore's mouth or the strange angle of Dumbledore's arms and legs as he lay on the ground. Nevertheless, it is possible that Dumbledore was extremely close to death as he wordlessly communicated with Snape on top of the tower. Snape, although he hated the thought of appearing to kill Dumbledore, performed the fake AK/Impedimenta, and Dumbledore died on his own from the effects of the poison potion, either as he fell slowly to the foot of the Tower or in the moments afterward. (Remember, it took Harry a while to get back to Dumbledore's body. If DD were still alive after the fall, he could have chosen to release the Petrificus Totalus on Harry at the time of impact and then have died shortly thereafter.) Merrylinks, realizing that things aren't always what they seem in the world of JKR From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 13:39:38 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:39:38 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" wrote: > >"Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, whey he didn't just throw > Riddle's diary away. ...even though he *knew* the diary > was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up & turning the pages, > as if it were a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry had never > heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something > to him, ... as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very > small, and half-forgotten." > > This is (in the wake of HBP) one of the most tantalizing sections in > the series... Either Harry is experiencing an affinity as > side-effect of having had some of Voldemort's powers transferred to > him, or the diary has a spell on it to make it attractive ..., > or Harry really is a horcrux and is sensing the relationship between > the part of Voldemort's soul he carries and the one in the diary. > > Sandy aka msbeadsley Fantastic observation, and it also foreshadows Harry's trust in the potions book of the Half Blood Prince, that he saw the Prince as a friend. Harry was also able to destroy the diary, perhaps significantly. lealess From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 24 13:40:41 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:40:41 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138631 > 1. In her greatest need, Narcissa comes to Snape for help. What > arguments does she use to convince him? She *doesn't* use any of > "you're honor bound to help your friend Lucius". She doesn't use > "you're honor bound to help Draco because you're a DE/ Slytherin/ > old gang member". Nope, her arguments are much more convincing > than that: she calls him "Severus", she praises him, she gasps, > she sobs, she clutches her long blond hair, she casts her cloak > aside and falls on his sofa with trembling hands clasped, she > sheds tears on his chest (no, I'm *not* exaggerating. She most > canonically sheds them on his chest), she pleads, she actually > kneels before him and kisses his hand, darn it. And it works. How > did she know that this approach would work on a confirmed SOB like > Snape? Jen: Heh, just had to reprint this part because I like it so much. And it points to a few things Narcissa seems to know will work with Snape: * "You are the *only* one who can help me." *"He trusts you so Severus.... *"You are the Dark Lord's favorite, his most trusted advisor (huh? his most trusted advisor is a spy?) And in the moment when Snape suggests it might be possible to help Draco, Narcissa in rapid succession flings her glass, kneels at Severus' feet, kisses his hand and asks for an Unbreakable. Snort! He's so been had. And Snape? "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones." Just say no, Severus. Neri:: > 4. As Bella correctly notes, Snape could have easily slither away > from this specific responsibility. None of the Death Eaters would > expect him to guard Draco or act against the spirit of the Dark > Lord's explicit orders. He could have easily ushered Narcissa out > with some vague promises that he'll do what he can. But no, he > makes her an Unbreakable Vow. The BIG sacrifice. Why? Jen: Yes, he could. Bella is in disfavor with LV at the moment. Narcissa via Lucius' mistake is faced with sacrificing her son for hubby's mistakes. Snape just went through a litany of mostly self- serving explanations for why the Dark Lord trusted him, he could certainly continue to play that role as Bella so accurately points out. What in the heck is he doing here? Neri: > 6. You will notice that Snape most definitely doesn't do this for > his old friend Lucius. You won't find in his words even a hint for > some good word, some whiff of tender emotion for Lucius. He won't > say it explicitly in front of Narcissa, but it's obvious from his > comments to Bella that he despises the man. Jen: No, he takes every opportunity to point out Lucius' failings and to confirm the fact Draco is being used as punishment. Neri: > Yep, I believe our poor Severus is obsessed with pureblood > aristocracy. He despises them, oh yes, for being so incapable and > for thinking that their ancestry makes them better, but what he > wants more than anything is to be an aristocrat himself, more > noble and rich and powerful than his fellows DEs. He fantasizes > about them looking up admiringly at him. So, whom would this > Severus be attracted to? The muggle-born, independent, smart, > cheeky, redhead Lily Evans, who could respect him for his > knowledge and abilities? No, no, no. He'd fall for the > unachievable aristocratic pureblood, rich, elegant, frail, > Narcissa Black, who probably treats him like dirt. Jen: Part of the reason this chapter was so compelling in retrospect is how it fits in the with theme of the book. We know what part the UV played in the plot, but HBP is at the core about obsession. Merope's obsession with Riddle leading to the birth of her son and her own death; Voldemort's obsession with immortality; even Dumbledore has an obsessive air about him during the Horcrux search. This chapter can easily fit into the theme even if it doesn't turn out to be obsessive love. Maybe it was Snape's obsessive need to be important in the eyes of Narcissa, who represents all the pure-blood WW artistocrats, which led to his downfall. Jen, wondering if Potioncat will be able to get a fire-whiskey in her girl scout uniform and thinking CASTOR OIL is a splendid acronym :). From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 24 13:42:42 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:42:42 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: When Snape asks Bellatrix if she > thinks he can fool LV, the greatest Legilimens of all time (at least > in LV's opinion), of course Bella says no. But I'll bet the real > answer is yes. > In GoF, chap. 1, Voldemort boasts to Frank Bryce that he can *always* tell when someone is lying to him. In Chap. 24 of OOP, as the Occlumency lessons begin, Snape tells Harry: "The Dark Lord, for instance, *almost always* knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." (Asterisks added) Reading between the lines, Snape is saying that he can lie to Voldemort and get away with it. - CMC From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 24 13:55:17 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:55:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Pettigrew and the Spy (Was: Snape didn't murder the Potters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138633 > Bookworm: > This question has occurred to me, too. During CoS, he calls Harry > into his office simply to ask if there is anything Harry wants to > tell him. Of course, everything Harry doesn't want to say enters > his mind before he tells Dumbledore there is nothing. Later we > learn that Dumbledore, as a Legilimens, really could "see" > it. > > 1. Did Dumbledore not use Legilimens to find the spy? > 2. Was Pettigrew an accomplished enough Occlumens for Dumbledore not > to detect him? > 3. Did Dumbledore know and use Pettigrew to pass misinformation? > 4. Any other possibilities? Sure. Pettigrew was not the spy and Dumbledore never believed he was. He refrained from saying so, because he knows that the Dark Lord will murder Peter if he believes that Dumbledore has seen through the charade, and Harry will be out someone who owes him a life debt. That Peter was marked and betrayed the secret does not prove that he was the spy. Morfin's false confession casts doubt on Peter's, which was already suspect IMO, since it was extracted under duress by two men who were suspects themselves. Peter may have been bullied into confessing to be the spy just as he was bullied into giving up the secret. Alternatively, he might have been enchanted so that he really believes he was the spy. As for who the real spy was, who do we know besides Snape who might be skilled at occlumency? "An odd, closed expression appeared on Lupin's face." -- PoA ch 14 "Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works." --PoA ch 19 Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 24 14:35:00 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:35:00 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138634 Lupinlore: How do we know the body is in any way an anomaly? Pippin: Because Dumbledore says it is. "the Avada Kedavra curse does not usually leave any sign of damage....The exception sits before me." We're not experts, but Dumbledore is. Lupinlore: Besides, having DD appear a certain way after death has a literary impact, which I expect concerns JKR much more than the physics of AK death. Pippin: Sheer speculation. Backflipping, if you will. Besides, who determines the physics of AK death? She does. She could easily arrange the rules to allow the literary effect she wants, as she did with the thestrals. Why state a rule if the big death scene she's obviously foreshadowing all through the book is going to contradict it? And in the same book? Lupinlore: What times are you referring to with regard to Snape/Dumbledore disagreements? At least some of them, such as the hissy fit Snape through in PoA, speak more against Snape than for him. Pippin: All of them. What does Evil!Snape have to gain by arguing with Dumbledore about anything whatsoever? Nothing that would be worth the risk of arousing Dumbledore's suspicions. Snape usually presses his point until he's told, "that will do, Severus" or words to that effect, but Fake!Moody lets himself be silenced with a word.("Alastor!") Evil!Snape would have been wise to follow the same strategy. Now, maybe Snape couldn't help himself, but then you'd have to do some contortions to explain how someone with such poor self-control could be good enough at occlumency to fool Dumbledore. Lupinlore: You are right that the Order members know Snape's Patronus. But if that is a concrete piece of evidence in Snape's favor, why doesn't anyone bring it up at the end of HBP? Pippin: If Snape's patronus would give too much away, then the Order would have orders not to reveal it, and they're not going to stop following orders just because Dumbledore is dead. Lupinlore: All of these people who know Snape's patronus readily rush to believe Harry and accept that Snape killed Dumbledore. Pippin: I don't agree. Lupin accepts it at once, along with Tonks who would naturally support him. But Lupin has a grievance, no matter how politely expressed. Hagrid certainly doesn't believe it readily and neither does McGonagall. We do not see her first reaction. She has already talked to Hagrid when she speaks to Harry, and yet she still says outright she can't believe it. Slughorn says, "I thought I knew him" -- almost the same words Lupin used earlier about Sirius. Hagrid moves the body before the ministry arrives, apparently at McGonagall's orders -- something you might do in case of a natural death, but not if you thought a crime had been committed. I think, if anyone knows the rest of the Snape story, it's Hagrid. He was utterly sure that Snape had not attacked Harry in PS/SS, and wouldn't believe that Snape was trying to steal the stone. I don't think either McGonagall or Hagrid would express any doubts to Harry without conclusive evidence. Harry clearly believes he is telling the truth, and he has suffered enough by being doubted. I'm sure they feel a little guilty that they didn't, or couldn't, do more to support Harry during his year of trial. Even if they wanted to forget, there are scars on Harry's hand to remind them. Many readers seem to feel the same way, that Harry deserves to be right after having been doubted so unfairly. But...There is canon that Dumbledore meant a great deal to all of these people, especially Lupin and Hagrid. So why is it nobody except Harry is talking about getting revenge on Snape...not Hagrid, who was ready to beat up Karkaroff merely for insulting DD, and swore he would tear Sirius limb from limb if he'd known, or Lupin, who would have killed Pettigrew on the spot? Pippin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 24 15:07:26 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:07:26 -0000 Subject: "Seeing" the Invisible In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138635 Greg: > We don't see much of this again until HBP, when Dumbledore > identifies the entrance to the cave, the words that were written > and the location of the boat, all of which from Harry's point of > view seem to be invisible. > > So the question becomes, is this "seeing the invisble" a.) a > unique trait of Dumbledore's, b.) a trait like a metamorphagus > that is something inborn to each person (and so therefore > something Harry's going to have to deal w/o in book 7) or c.) > something that Harry can learn. Jen: I've been wondering when this interview snippet might come into play and I think your idea could be it (CBBC, 2000): Lizo: "Are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like " JKR: "Why do you want to know this?" Lizo: "I just vaguely wondered." JKR: "Why?" Lizo: "Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lilly Potter's eyes?" JKR: "Aren't you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I'm going to say no more. Very clever." I was wondering if the quote had to do with Lily's and Harry's eyes, and certainly that could still play out. Both are said to see the world in a compassionate way (although humanly imperfect as well), and maybe the gift of the eyes is also a magical ability to 'see through' what others can't. (Course that might be contradicted by JKR saying Harry's eyes are his most vulnerable area, darn interviews ). Greg: > From both the trip to the cave, and the little we know about > Dumbledore's trip to the Gaunt house, both of Voldemort's > Horcruxes were at least partially hidden from sight. This means > two things. Number one, Voldemort is likely to be another person > who can "see the invisible", and 2 Harry's going to need to be > able to do the same to find the remaining hidden Horcruxes. But > where's he going to learn that? Jen: Voldemort's magical skill would probably be in the hiding and cursing rather than the seeing. He's proven how often he overlooks important information to the point you wonder if his extreme skill blocks his other senses! He's certainly cut off from his soul and intuition, we know that for a literal fact now. Steve: > The short version of my interpretation is that Dumbledore is an old > and wise man. He is not distracted by the moment, and see and hears > things that others simply block out as unimportant. In other words, > Dumbledore is an extremely preceptive person. Jen: While I completely agree, it would still be fun to find out there's a magical power involved, something connecting Harry with Lily. Dumbledore probably learned the skill, but perhaps it will be innate for Harry. Jen From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 15:16:57 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:16:57 -0000 Subject: Ok I'll have one of those LOLLIPOPS - Snape the Unicorn. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138636 Hi! Another point. In HBP we learn that Snape is quite the healer (DD's withered arm, Katie Bell's curse injury, Draco's Sectumsempra injury). And we know from earlier books (Sorceror's Stone) that unicorn blood has powerful healing properties. Not a Lily-related observation, but a unicorn-related one! --zgirnius From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 24 15:25:30 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:25:30 -0000 Subject: Did Snape have a choice or not? Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138637 > Jen: He has emotional control during the scene, but look where he ended up! On the floor, kneeling in front of Narcissa and sealing his doom. What in the world would make him do that? He doesn't need to prove himself to either of these women if Voldemort trusts him as much as Snape says he does. He can look out for Draco without an UV. Something motivated him to make this huge error and I'm just searching for what that could possibly be. Pippin: Dumbledore's orders? I'm interested that I'm not the only poster who thinks Narcissa's lines sound rehearsed and calculated. The conditional language "And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail" sounds more like Dumbledore trying to be clever than a desperate woman pleading for her son. As Dumbledore pointed out to Draco, it would not seem necessary to kill someone who is already dead. (This clause also allows Snape to survive if Dumbledore fakes his death or dies of other causes.) Also, Narcissa's tears flow with what seem to be unnatural volume, soaking Snape's chest and all. They start after she's had her second glass of wine (which Snape poured) and end with suspicous suddenness after her third. Did one contain a tearfulness potion and the other its antidote? I don't believe we've heard of tearfulness potions specifically, but there certainly are ones for other bodily, er, secretions. In that case, the whole scene is a drama staged by Snape and Narcissa for Bella's benefit, as a way of getting the Dark Lord's blessing, so to speak, for Snape to watch over Draco. Since Voldemort is incapable of trusting anyone, and he doesn't need Snape's help to carry out the plan, he would allow Snape to watch over Draco only if if he had no choice. That Snape tells Draco he made a UV suggests that he isn't concerned to have Voldemort learn that he made it. That in turn suggests that he expected Bella to try to earn her way back into Voldemort's favor by telling him about the vow -- she'd sacrifice her own son for Voldemort, she says, so why not her sister? And she obviously has no love for Snape. But Narcissa is safe for the while, because Voldemort needs her as leverage over Draco, and Snape cannot thwart the plan without, Voldemort thinks, being forced to carry it out himself. Voldemort need do nothing but await the repair of the cabinet. That is the real kicker, the part of the plan that neither Snape nor Dumbledore guessed, that Voldemort actually had a reasonable expectation of getting his DE's into the castle. Even Harry's suspicions did not extend that far. Pippin From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 15:32:53 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:32:53 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > Knowing someone as a colleague and teacher is not the same as > knowing > them as a person in the deeper sense. And that is what we now can > (with a lot of backing) postulate was the Snape/all the teachers at > Hogwarts relationship. I'd hesitate to even call it friendship. > > It's often advanced by the DDM!Snape advocates that Snape is a > very, > very good actor--good enough to fool Bella et al., and good enough > to > have been a spy within Voldemort's camp, et cetera. This can > surely > also then be applied to his relationships within Hogwarts. And > then > Snape goes home for the summers, and does whatever. > Snape is a loner, probably an introvert. Loners are automatically mistrusted by "normal" people, no matter how long they have known them, because they don't make an effort to fit in, or perhaps to even be really known. Dumbledore has apparently tried to draw Snape into school functions, and the Potions Master sits there and grouses. He only seems to be extroverted with his peers, and that mildly, at Quidditch matches, but matches have the advantage of being competitive, so he has an easy role to play. He is extroverted, more or less, with students, but that again is an easily played authority role. Other than that, he probably rebuffs the staff, except perhaps those who are more on his previous social level (Filch?). Given his loner personality, it is not impossible that people have written him off on a personal level a long time ago, have maybe even been suspicious of him because they haven't taken the effort or been able to know him. Not only that, but he has walked a thin line as a spy, with only Dumbledore's trust to balance him. This is the same trust the staff and Order members have been counting on, as well. lealess From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Wed Aug 24 15:36:15 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:36:15 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Seeing" the Invisible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138639 >Steve: >> The short version of my interpretation is that Dumbledore is an old >> and wise man. He is not distracted by the moment, and see and hears >> things that others simply block out as unimportant. In other words, >> Dumbledore is an extremely preceptive person. > >Jen: While I completely agree, it would still be fun to find out >there's a magical power involved, something connecting Harry with >Lily. Dumbledore probably learned the skill, but perhaps it will be >innate for Harry. This reminds me of more of Hermione in PS/SS than of Harry. After they were in the room with Fluffy for the first time, she upbraids the boys for not using their eyes and noticing that the "dog" was sitting on a trap door. Also, in PoA, she notices R J Lupin on the traveling case - immediately. She often seems surprised that others don't notice some details. I think Hermione could be another "extremely perceptive person", if her abilities in that direction were cultivated. But, alas, we don't hear anything special about her eyes, so it doesn't seem to be the same quality as that alluded to for Harry and Lily's eyes. Long ago, I was wondering if the bright green eyes might be an indication that the person had been either possessed by an evil wizard or could use those green eyes against an evil wizard. Green seems to be the color often reserved for evil. At one point, I was even convinced that I read that Ginny's eyes flashed green after she had been possessed by LV in CoS, but I never found the canon reference, so I must have just imagined it. From a scientific point of view, the reason something looks green is that the object absorbs all of the colors except green and reflects the green back to be seen. That would be a nice allegory for the green eyes. They see/absorb all of the world, but reject the evil part. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From phil at pcsgames.net Wed Aug 24 15:42:03 2005 From: phil at pcsgames.net (Phil Vlasak) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:42:03 -0400 Subject: Trelawney's Prediction References: Message-ID: <072701c5a8c3$4d6dfcb0$6600a8c0@phil> No: HPFGUIDX 138640 Trelawney's Prediction. After reading the day of Voldemort's birth in HBP, Chapter thirteen: "That's right," said Mrs. Cole, helping herself to more gin. "I remember it clear as anything, because I'd just started here myself. New Year's Eve and bitter cold, snowing, you know. Nasty night. And this girl, not much older than I was myself at the time, came staggering up the front steps. Well, she wasn't the first. We took her in, and she had the baby within the hour. And she was dead in another hour." Makes this prediction from GoF, Chapter thirteen, more interesting: "Saturn, dear, the planet Saturn!" said Professor Trelawney, sounding definitely irritated that Harry wasn't riveted by this news. "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth. ... Your dark hair ... your mean stature ... tragic losses so young in life... I think I am right in saying, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" Phil, who thinks she is more correct in her predictions than wrong. From ibchawz at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 13:32:26 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:32:26 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't murder the Potters, LV did (was What would Snape have to do....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138641 Del wrote: > * The person who leaves the door open so that a murderer can get in a > place is not a murderer. ibchawz responds: Is this allusion to Peter Pettigrew? Since he was the secret keeper, he was the only one that could "unlock the door" and let LV in the Potter's house. Peter knew that the Potter's would die if he opened the door. To me, this places just as much, if not more, of the blame on Peter Pettigrew than LV. Del wrote: > * The person who buys a gun is not responsible for the way their > spouse might use it. ibchawz responds: In HBP we learn that Hogwarts has funds available for those who cannot afford to attend. I assume that the headmaster is responsible for determining the need and distribution of these funds. Does this mean that Dumbledore should have been held responsible for the Potter's deaths based on the fact that he gave Tom the money to purchase his wand? I think this is a much of a stretch as the RL example you are trying to use. Why not blame Ollivander since he made the wand? IMO, wands don't kill people, people kill people. Del wrote: > * The spy who informs the enemy army is not responsible for the > decision the enemy general will make. ibchawz responds: This one fits Snape to a "T". Granted, Snape may not have known exactly who the prophecy named as the ones that defied LV 3 times, but I'm sure he would have known the consequences. Del wrote: > As for the Longbottoms' murders, I fail to see how Snape is connected > to them. ibchawz responds: The Longbottoms were not murdered. They were tortured to the point of mental collapse. I do agree that there is no evidence that Snape was directly involved with this. ibchawz From ladinechan at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 12:59:17 2005 From: ladinechan at hotmail.com (comomegusta6) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:59:17 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138642 Neri wrote: - Instead of using his muggle father's name, young > Severus chose the maiden name of his pureblood mother for his > self-invented nickname. And this name just happened to be "Prince". > Yep, I believe our poor Severus is obsessed with pureblood > aristocracy. Sorry but, how do we know that Snape's mother was pureblood? She may have been halfblood or muggleborn, for what we know. She was certainly a witch, and her husband, a muggle, so Snape is halfblood. For instance, if Hermione, a muggleborn, marries a muggle and has a boy, he will be halfblood, won't he?. Harry supposes that Elieen was pureblood but we don't know. We don't even know which house she was sorted in: it could be Slytherin, but also Ravenclaw, of Griffindor... Silverfly From lebeto033 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 02:43:56 2005 From: lebeto033 at yahoo.com (lebeto033) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:43:56 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138643 merpsiren: I was amazed when I read this from Valky... and really think everyone should read it carefully! Every previous description of AK is an instant death... so why not this one agaisnt DD? Harry and the Death Eaters saw exactly what Dumbledore wanted them to see. Blasted into the air??? Fall slowly over the battlements? What happens to Dumbledore doesn't resemble the Avada Kedavra at all. It rather appears that Dumbledore is transported either under his own power, or with the abilites of a non-verbal Snape spell... and then SLOWLY lowered off of the tower. If Dumbledore was really hit with an AK... he should have died instantaneously and crumpled atop the tower... and at the same time the spell DD had cast on Harry immobilizing him, should have also instantaneously released him. As Valky noted, it is only when DD is out of sight that Harry is released. It could be argued that DD died as a result of the potion he drank combined with the fall off the tower, or you could believe that once out of sight of his "audience" he was able to release Harry to report the "death" he had just witnessed. lebeto: Now for me to play devil's advocate. If Snape were truly evil then the expression on his face was rage and perhaps his anger fueled the AK and blasted Dumbledore. Every other instance is to kill someone considered by the caster to be a lesser: a muggle, a "spare", and two animals. There is no real emotion behind the spell which we know is important to spells such as the Patronus and perhaps an AK. As for the slow fall I just assumed it was like the movies...in a dramatic moment such as the death of an important character it nearly always appears in a slow action. I assumed that it was the way Harry saw it and everything seems to be in slow motion but in reality he just fell. And for the final point, I'm not sure but does it say anywhere that one needs to be alive for their spell to work. I thought it was a time based thing. For instance, in the first book when Hermione hits Neville with the Petrificus Totalus I believe it runs off after a certain amount of time otherwise she needs to keep concentrating on having Neville frozen long enough for them to get to Fluffy's room. Lebeto. From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 24 08:56:17 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:56:17 -0000 Subject: Use of Veritaserum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138644 strawberryshaunie wrote: Why are there any > innocent people in Azkaban at all, ever, when the Ministry has > Veritaserum at its disposal? Elyse: This is probably because there is an antidote to Veritaserum. And I (unbelievably) can provide the canon for this: >"Professor Slughorn is an extremely able wizard who will be >expecting >both," said Dumbledore. "He is much more accomplished at Occlumency >than poor Morfin Gaunt, and I would be astonished if he has not >carried an >*antidote to Veritaserum* with him ever since I coerced him into >giving me >this travesty of a recollection. Now I have heard many RL stories in which spies have put a tiny pill of cyanide in a tooth cavity, and if they are ever caught by the enemy, they simply ingest the poison rather than let themselves be captured and tortured for information. So I guess anybody really dangerous could do the same thing. Perhaps ESG!Snape already has done so. I wonder what kind of contingency plan he had in case he was ever caught? I mean he knew too much about the Order and he could have been tortured for information in the same way that the Longbottoms were... Elyse From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 16:16:34 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:16:34 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again). Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138645 "Jessica Bathurst" wrote: > You can never be in too good with a sociopath. You can never have a sociopath's complete trust regardless of what you do, and the idea that the OOP would agree to let their most powerful, wisest, and kindest wizard get murdered just to incrementally increase Voldemort's trust in Snape is ridiculous, especially when it is likely to have the exact opposite effect. Think back over history, when a dictator's general wins some huge victory it may increase the dictator's respect for the general but it never increases his trust. It is the incompetent general that the troops think of with contempt that the dictator feels unthreatened by. > About the UV - that was a mistake, > probably born of arrogance (and > possibly Snape's secret desire for > desparate blondes). Snape may not > have seen where the Vow was going "And now," the commentator said in a low hushed voice, "The next member of the Snape lovers team will attempt a mental Reverse Flying Triple back Somersault with a degree of difficulty of 4.2, . and so . ah too bad, that must have hurt." > He was stupid to bind himself so > irrevocably to a course of action Nobody is that stupid, if you make an Unbreakable Vow to kill somebody it doesn't take a genius to figure out what that will lead to. > He [Voldemort] apparently asked > the DEs to leave him [Harry] at > Hogwarts to be dealt with later > personally. If one of his lowly Death Eaters had killed Harry after Voldemort had tried to do it personally 5 times and failed disastrously each and every time it would look bad, it would look very very bad. Why should we follow this Bozo who can't even kill a little boy, let's follow the man who actually killed the Chosen One. > I don't think Snape is a good guy. > He doesn't seem to have much in the > way of abstract moral reasoning, > and I doubt he'd align himself with > a group just because they were the > good guys. I agree, and I can understand how a man like that might hate Voldemort, after all hate is what Snape is especially good at; but if he is the sort of man you and I think he is what possible reason would he have to be loyal to Dumbledore if it conflicts with his goals? > He does, however, have a very real > (if completely personal) sense of > what is "right," and he acts accordingly. The only time I've seen Snape do anything good is when he saved Harry's life in book 1 and he did that because he heard the Prophecy and needed Harry to get rid of Voldemort for him. > Snape had no idea what was going > on behind the door until he opened > it. It took him a few seconds to > put it all together. So, so Snape didn't have enough time to figure out it might be a good idea to kill the Death Eaters but he did have enough time to decide to murder Dumbledore. Back flip time. Eggplant From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 16:24:55 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:24:55 -0000 Subject: Did Ollivander know about the Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Ollivander says in SS/PS, in a scene which I think foreshadows a lot > of future events, "He who must not be named did great things. > Terrible, but great." He can't mean all the murder and mayhem LV has > caused, which qualifies as terrible but not great. Can he possibly > know about the Horcruxes, which appear to be very complicated (and > certainly terrible) magic, going beyond what anyone else has done and > consequently qualifying (from Ollivander's somewhat amoral > perspective) as "great"? > > Any thoughts about how much Ollivander might know and how it ties in > with his disappearance? "Ollivanders: Makers of Fine Wands since 382 B.C." Sign in SS. "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age." Professor Binns, COS. It is possible that some or all of the wands of the founders of Hogwarts were produced by an Ollivander. As several people have speculated, one of these wands could have been used for a Horcrux. A good way to hide something would be among many others similar to it. Where better than Olivander's shop? It's full of magic "vibes" and an Ollivanders wand with something extra might not be noticed there. However, Mr. Ollivander is quite perceptive. He might recently have noticed that one of his wands was fundamentally different from the others. He may have tried to probe it, realized what he had, and gone into hiding until he figured out what to do with it. Merrylinks, who is very very very far out on a limb with all of this From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 16:38:31 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:38:31 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138648 > Blasted into the air??? Fall slowly > over the battlements? What happens > to Dumbledore doesn't resemble the > Avada Kedavra at all. Depending on circumstances we've seen Avada Kedavra leave a scar, destroy a house and smash a very large statue into dust. In fact I don't think we've seen that particular curse work exactly the same way twice. This desperation to make Snape innocent or Dumbledore not dead reminds me of the silly Serious is not really dead stuff when OOTP first came out. It's time to get over denial, the characters may not have developed in ways you like but it's JKR's book. Eggplant From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 24 16:43:40 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:43:40 -0000 Subject: Mistakes and Grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138649 I almost always enjoy the word choice in the dialogue Rowling writes for Dumbledore, and "huger" was no exception. Dumbledore's prose is poetic, but without taking itself too seriously (look back at the paragraph immediately prior to the "huger mistakes" reference, where Dumbledore follows up a sentence chock full of classical rhetorical devices -- metaphor, alliteration, doubled tricolon -- with a comic reference to Humphrey Belcher's cheese cauldrons). The use of "huger" fits that same pattern: Dumbledore picks a simple and common descriptor ("huge"), but uses it in an uncommon construction, demonstrating the thought he puts into his choice of words. It didn't strike me as odd or grammatically questionable. Geoff is right that "huge" is very rarely used in comparative form, but it has had some use in the superlative, including perhaps most famously Milton's description of Leviathan in Paradise Lost as "Hugest of living Creatures." (Melville, possibly in homage to Milton, also picked up that descriptor in Moby Dick.) -- Matt From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 15:43:39 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Uncharacteristic Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <1124506510.2280.76780.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050824154339.6765.qmail@web30013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138650 Chris wrote: > (1 and 2) [Dumbledore's] sense of humor and politeness are > a bit out of whack in two instances, first at the Dursley's and > then with Slughorn. He forces his way past Vernon and into the > house, forcefully sitting all three of them on the couch, and > then proceeding to knock them about their heads with goblets > full of mead. Matt wrote: > The one exception is actually the piece I found most out of > character for Dumbledore in the whole scene -- his criticism of > the way the Dursleys have raised Dudley. I guess that piece > bothered me more than the rest because it was an *unnecessary* > swipe, whereas everything else Dumbledore did or said seemed > responsive to the situation. Lynda says: You know, Dumbledore's treatment of the Dursleys did/does not seem the least bit out of character to me. He did, after all, leave a young child in their care, trusting that he would be raised as their son, not as an unwanted burden. As for his comments about Dudley, they have the ring of truth to them and I've been waiting for six books for some character in the books to suggest openly that the Dursleys treatment of Dudley is other than beneficial to them. Dumbledore finally did it and to me it seems like its perfectly within his character span. One isn't a successful headmaster or teacher without sometimes being a bit sharp when the situation merits. As for the offering of refreshments and Dumbledore's other forays into near rudeness at the Dursleys home, perhaps he felt that the only way to respond to these people was to meet them on their own ground. They are not polite people and by telling them how they should have responded to his visit, Dumbledore was attempting to make a point. On to his visit to Slughorn: Again, I am not sure he is acting out of character. We are simply seeing him differently than in the other books. We are seeing him on some of his normal work outside of Hogwarts. Some of the theories about the reasons for storing his memories in bottles are interesting. I tend to think that Dumbledore is indeed dead, but may be pleasantly surprised by the last book. If he is dead, there is a strong possibility that another character may need to gain access to his memories (Harry, Slughorn, McGonagall, Snape...) and that the reason lies there. Lynda DeColores From c_s_wagon at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 10:49:43 2005 From: c_s_wagon at yahoo.com (c_s_wagon) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:49:43 -0000 Subject: Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters ?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138651 Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters? Does any one have any theories? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 16:58:48 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:58:48 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Actually, I have a name for your craft. There's LOLLIPOPS you see, > which is the opposite of your theory. The sweet, Muggelborn on one > hand, the bitter, Pureblood on the other. So of course, your theory's > name should reflect that, but it has to speak to the nature of the > affection. Here it is: > Cissy And Severus Talking Old Romance. One Ill-fated Love! CASTOR OIL. > How about ACID POPS? It's got a C and an S in it and it fits "the nature of the affection." You can figure out what it stands for if you like. I'm not good and that sort of thing, and I have other explanations for Snape's behavior. I think he was momentarily moved by compassion mixed with vanity, along with the need to maintain his cover in front of Bella and the delusion that it wouldn't hurt to swear to do what he intended to do, anyway--help and protect Draco. I also think that Narcissa, barely believing her good luck, was inspired at the last moment to add that deadly final provision. (The DADA curse at work?) I also think that he was bluffing at first and tried to use Legilimency on Narcissa but saw only what was uppermost in her mind, Draco failing to do "the deed" and being killed by Death Eaters. And that, I think, is what Snape was thinking about as he turned away from her tears and composed himself at the window. If I'm right, he was not agreeing to kill Dumbledore but to do some unknown deed *if* it appeared that Draco couldn't do it and was in danger of being killed by Death Eaters. But as someone else pointed out, his hand twitches *before* Narcissa finishes her sentence--he expects her to name the deed he's supposed to help with, and he's afraid of what she'll say. She doesn't reveal the task, and, lulled into a false confidence by the vagueness of the wording (not to mention that he's in no position, literally or figuratively, to stand up and break his promise to take the vow), he says "I will." There are many factors at work here--Snape's flaws combining with his virtues, Narcissa's desperation, the need to keep his cover in front of Bella (whom he has virtually ordered to spread his cover story to the other DEs), and most of all, in my view, the curse on the DADA position working through the UV to doom Snape. ("Blind, Severus, blind!" as Aunt Betsy Trotwood would have said.) I do agree, though, that Snape seems genuinely pleased and surprised to see Narcissa (equally surprised and not at all pleased to see Bella). I would imagine that this gentlemanly side of his character is not as new to Narcissa as it is to us. We still see his Snapey side, though, in his treatment of both Bella and Wormtail ("But we're not counting vermin, are we?" BTW, I think he put an Impervius (sp?) spell on the door to prevent Wormtail from listening in, much as the Order did in OOoP to keep the kids from listening in on the meeting. Carol, who thinks that anyone who believes Snape's cover story and his assertion that he knows what the Dark Lord has asked Draco to do is underestimating Snape's Slytherin capacity for deception, here used to fool Bellatrix and Narcissa--and rebounding, ironically, upon himself From muellem at bc.edu Wed Aug 24 17:30:15 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:30:15 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > Blasted into the air??? Fall slowly > > over the battlements? What happens > > to Dumbledore doesn't resemble the > > Avada Kedavra at all. > > Depending on circumstances we've seen Avada Kedavra leave a scar, > destroy a house and smash a very large statue into dust. In fact I > don't think we've seen that particular curse work exactly the same way > twice. This desperation to make Snape innocent or Dumbledore not dead > reminds me of the silly Serious is not really dead stuff when OOTP > first came out. It's time to get over denial, the characters may not > have developed in ways you like but it's JKR's book. > > Eggplant and you need to realize and get over the fact that some of us like to pick thru clues. Perhaps we read too many spy & detective novels. But to break it down *as simply* as you do, is insulting to everyone here on the board. I think you are being a tad obnoxious and rather Snape-like. You need to get over the denial that Rowling has ALWAYS proven Harry wrong about Snape and since she stated book 6 & book 7 are ONE big book, there is no reason to think she won't do this again. If I am wrong, I won't lose sleep over it. However, having fun & exchanging ideas is part of the appeal of the HP books. I am SO glad not everyone posts like you do. Even the ones who believe in ESE! Snape or TW!Snape or OFH!Snape don't post like you do. It isn't what you post, it is how you post it and your attitude. colebiancardi (holding back, otherwise a few Snape-like words would be posted!) From kjaudon at policy-studies.com Wed Aug 24 17:32:17 2005 From: kjaudon at policy-studies.com (kim4fsu) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:32:17 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't murder the Potters, LV did (was What would Snape have to do.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138654 I don't imagine I'm the only one who has seen a connection between Snape's character and Gollum in Lord of the Rings. IMO, the reason there are so many disagreements about the nature of Snape is that we've seen him make many choices throughout the series - some evil, some good. People make such choices all the time, and each individual choice can't give away a person's true "soul." At different times, we've seen "evil" Snape and at others "good" Snape and so both opinions are, in fact, right. IMO, when Snape paused before Dumbledore's death, he knew he was making his last decision. That the course he chose would be his ultimate destiny. I want to believe the decision was on the side of good, but I just can't. I think he chose himself above all else; chose what he thought would benefit him. That with DD gone, his greatest hope was with LV. But, I do think that his choice, like Gollum's, will ultimately lead to good. Kim - who wants to believe that everyone can be redeemed. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 17:44:07 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:44:07 -0000 Subject: Snape did kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138655 "colebiancardi" wrote: > I think you are being a tad obnoxious > and rather Snape-like. Judging from the comments I've read from Snape apologists, being called "Snape-like" is about the highest complement one could receive. > I am SO glad not everyone posts like > you do. Even the ones who believe in ESE! But I don't believe in ESE, I think the term is simplistic and childish. Eggplant From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 24 17:59:30 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:59:30 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... / Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: <006d01c5a89a$cbad7660$86c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138656 CathyD: > I still say Snape did pretty well as a teacher. houyhnhnm: Snape shows much more professionalism than some of the other staff. As a teacher myself, I was appalled at Lupin's unprofessional behavior when he set up a colleague for ridicule in the boggart lesson. Absolutely unacceptable under any circumstances. Snape has half of what it takes to be a good teacher--a passion for his subject. He lacks the other half--compassion for his students. Actually, I'm not too impressed with the teaching methods of any of the staff at Hogwarts. They don't seem to have any. "Here's what I want you to do. Figure it out for yourself." From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 24 18:07:16 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:07:16 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138657 --- Marrylinks wrote: > I checked out the battle in the Ministry of Magic and, > sure enough, I found this: > > Dumbledore brandished his wand in one, long, fluid movement > -- the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its > fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a > wisp of dark smoke; the water in the pool rose up and > covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass -- > > That example shows two spells cast successfully at the > same time. So, while we don't have a perfect parallel to > an *unsuccessful verbal spell* cast simultaneously with a > *successful nonverbal spell*, all done *by the same person*, > we probably have enough evidence that such a thing can be > done. For what it's worth, the one faked death that we know about for sure in the series also involved some apparently simultaneous magic, even if it was not all spellwork. When Pettigrew faked his death, we are given to understand that he did three things almost simultaneously: 1) Cut off his finger, 2) Blasted open the street, and 3) Assumed his rat form. We know (at least Peter doesn't deny it) that he "blew apart the street with the wand behind his back." We don't know whether Peter cut off his finger magically, but it seems likely (otherwise was he manipulating both a wand *and* a knife with the hand behind his back?). Both spells most have been non-verbal, since all the witnesses heard was Peter's denunciation of Sirius (which also gives credence to the idea that one can perform a non-verbal spell even while shouting something else). Peter's transformation also has to have been virtually simultaneous with the two spells -- he couldn't cast spells in rat form, but the observers didn't see him in human form after he blasted the street and cut off his finger. I am a bit dubious about the faked death scenarios because the idea doesn't seem to fit as well thematically at this point in the story as the idea that Dumbledore is dead and Harry needs to go on alone. But it certainly does not seem to be foreclosed from a practical standpoint, given what a lesser wizard (demonstrably lesser than Snape or Dumbledore) was able to accomplish, acting alone, 15 years earlier. -- Matt From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 18:08:17 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:08:17 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... / Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > Snape shows much more professionalism than some of the other staff. > As a teacher myself, I was appalled at Lupin's unprofessional > behavior when he set up a colleague for ridicule in the boggart > lesson. We've been around this on-list about eight million times, but I have to ask: do you think there is absolutely solid canonical proof that Lupin directly *set* Snape up? The way I've always read it, Snape begins by doing something highly unprofessional--openly insulting a student in front of another teacher, outside of Snape's own classroom. Lupin, as a rejoinder to this, states his intention to use Neville in the hands- on lesson for the day. Now, maybe Lupin knows that Neville's greatest fear is Snape--and maybe he doesn't. But the only way to banish a boggart is to make it into something ridiculous, so Snape's going to end up being silly _by proxy_ no matter what. I consider that far, far less unprofessional than what Snape does when he teaches DADA. At least I've always been taught that it is absolutely rude to come in to someone else's class for a day and spend it disparaging the teacher of the class and his abilities (funny also because Snape gets some of the information wrong). Contrast to McGonagall, whose opinion of Trelawney becomes clear--but refuses to come out and *say* it about her colleague. That's professionalism. -Nora can't wait to get her hands on her own class of little undergrads From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 18:08:32 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:08:32 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138659 > houyhnhnm: > > Snape shows much more professionalism than some of the other staff. As > a teacher myself, I was appalled at Lupin's unprofessional behavior > when he set up a colleague for ridicule in the boggart lesson. > Absolutely unacceptable under any circumstances. Snape has half of > what it takes to be a good teacher--a passion for his subject. He > lacks the other half--compassion for his students. Actually, I'm not > too impressed with the teaching methods of any of the staff at > Hogwarts. They don't seem to have any. "Here's what I want you to > do. Figure it out for yourself." Alla: I said many times that I LOVED Lupin's boggart lesson. I did not take it as a mockery of Snape or if it was it was an extra bonus, IMO. I am positive that Lupin's primary motivation was to help Neville, NOT to mock Snape. If you remember Snape has NO hesitation whatsoever to mock Neville in front of the whole class AND his colleague. Lupin was IMO responding to help Neville to sterngthen his shattered self-esteem. I don't think Lupin even knew that Neville's boggart would be Snape. I have the link to my old post about Lupin's teaching methods at home a and may post it later. I find it VERY telling that narrator points out that Neville was laughing at Snape at the end. Even if it was a boggart Snape, to me it was a great start. So, I do think that Hogwarts teaching staff overall makes huge mistakes, BUT in general I find Lupin and Minerva to be very good teachers. JMO, Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 18:31:27 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:31:27 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138660 Finwitch wrote: > And I think Dumbledore IS dead. Umbridge wasn't able to get past the Gargoyle, remember? No one could get in there with Dumbledore away... I sort of think that McGonagall wouldn't have been able to call it *her office* had Dumbledore not been truly dead. Harry's loyalty even when Dumbledore's dead - would lose its meaning if it turned out that Dumbledore is NOT dead. > Besides, I'd think Harry would wonder if he did NOT see the green light, the one thing he remembered from his parents' death despite of all the lies the Dursleys told him. Carol responds: I agree with all of your arguments about Dumbledore being dead. I also believe that Harry, still in shock, is telling the truth *as he perceives it*. But a *jet* of green light ("jet" being the word used when "Stupefy" and other neutral spells are cast) is not the same as "a blinding flash of green light," the description that almost always accompanies a description of an AK. As you say, that flash is Harry's first memory, and it does not at all resemble Snape's presumed AK. (There's no rushing sound, either, and DD is "blasted" into the air rather than falling instantly dead. His eyes are closed and his expression is peaceful--all very un-AKlike. And Snape, of course, has been a skilled caster of "nvbl" spells since at least age sixteen.) So I think we should seriously consider the possibility that Snape's spell was not a real AK, examining the evidence carefully rather than basing our evidence on a traumatized Harry's interpretation of what he hears and sees. As I posted elsewhere, in messages 134666 (Can it be Impedimenta?) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134666 and 137162 (Faked death or faked AK?), http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137162 Snape's spell more closely resembles a disguised Impedimenta than an AK. (To my knowledge, we've never been told what color the light is from that spell. It could be green.) What the implications are if I'm right only JKR knows, but it could be a signal to Harry that (whom Snape surely knows is present because he sees the two brooms and knows about the Invisibility Cloak) that Snape is not a DE. At any rate, I hope he goes over the events of HBP with Lupin, who will (I hope) listen carefully and (like Dumbledore) understand more than Harry does from what Harry describes. There's a difference between what we see or (over)hear and what we interpret that perception to *mean* (witness the overheard conversation between Snape and Quirrell in SS/PS), which Harry misinterprets based on his preconceptions about Snape. I think we're getting the same strategy again when Harry eavesdrops on Draco and Snape and in the snippets of an argument between Snape and DD in the forest partially overheard by Hagrid and reported by him to Harry. These conversations and Draco's actions (which he interprets more or less correctly) convince Harry that Snape is in league with Draco (which is clearly *not* the case based on the conversation in Snape's office, in which Draco makes a clumsy attempt at Occlumency to keep Snape from knowing about the Vanishing Cabinets). Harry imposes this preconception (along with his hatred of Snape) onto the moment in which he witnesses Snape speaking the words "Avada Kedavra" and sending Dumbledore tumbling over the wall to his death. Ignoring or forgetting about the Unbreakable Vow (which in any case, he doesn't fully understand), he assumes treason and premeditated murder, neither of which is necessarily the case. Yes, Snape killed Dumbledore, but how and why are still unrevealed. (Unless, of course, we are stubbornly determined to believe that Harry is always right, a belief belied by his perception that he's being Crucio'd by Snape only a few pages later.) Harry's preconceptions are reinforced for the reader by "Spinner's End," that sneakiest of chapters, in which JKR places the reader in the role of eavesdropper. That chapter and "The Lightning-Struck Tower" need to be read very carefully to distinguish red herrings from clues. Snape is a master of deception, but so is JKR. We can't safely assume that we know the truth when Book 6-7 (two halves of a whole, as JKR has told us) is only half finished. To sum up, I agree with Finwitch that DD is dead and that Snape killed him (though not necessarily willingly or using an AK). I also agree that Harry is telling the Order members what he *believes* to be the truth (though he doesn't accurately report what DD told him about his reason for trusting Snape--hated and anger lead to distortion here). But what Harry sees and what we know about AKs do not fit together, nor has Harry examined the pieces of the puzzle as carefully as DD has almost certainly done. (I'm not suggesting that DD and Snape planned DD's death at Snape's hands. I think both of them did what they thought was necessary to prevent that possibility. Both of them, IMO, underestimated Draco, with disastrous consequences.) Aside to Eggplant: Examining the evidence to see if there's more than meets the eye is not "bending over backwards" to support our theories. It's understanding how JKR's narration works. For those who view the books as two halves of a whole (based on JKR's own statement), the chief difference between this book and its predecessors is that the mystery has not yet been resolved. Just as she made Fake!Moody appear to be a good guy in GoF, she may be (quite convincingly) making Snape appear evil in HBP (though he does, directly or indirectly, save four characters from death). Events and characters (Snape in particular) may not be what they seem, and repeated assertions that Harry has correctly interpreted what he sees will remain unconvincing without a close examination of the evidence and canon support for that position. Just my opinion, as Alla says. Carol From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:40:28 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:40:28 -0000 Subject: "Stopper death" (was Re: It's over, Snape is evil/Ruthless Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: <15.4b5eec54.303d60f9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138661 > > > > The Barmaid now: > > > > We know that there is a potion to "stopper death." > > > > Gatta says: > I think a lot of us are reading this too literally. I took it to mean > "stopper death (poison) in a bottle until it is needed." > > > Julie says: > That was actually how I read it originally--that Snape could > stopper death in a bottle. It was the more literal translation > to me--or, at least, the obvious one. It's only after reading 6 > HP books, and seeing how JKR constantly ignores the > obvious to present the less obvious that I've come to question > whether "stopper death" could mean "stop death in its > tracks" (i.e., a potion that would keep one who should > die from dying for a period of time, whether it be weeks, > months or indefinitely). > > > One thing I do know is not to make any assumptions when > it comes to JKR. In fact, I don't know why there couldn't > be a potion that would stopper death in a bottle, as well > as a potion that would stop death in its tracks. And it is > possible that Snape used the second one on DD when > he nearly died from the ring horcrux. > > Julie > Barmaid Now: YICKS! Not sure how I ended up with the quote above being attributed to me! I think maybe "Cat" said this. The point I did make was that if one believes that Snape killed DD on DD's orders and that DD was perhaps already a "dead man walking" then that killing would not be a "murder" and therefore would not have the same impact on Snape's soul that a murder would. Many in the ESE! Snape camp argue that DD would not order Snape to inflict upon himself the sort of damage he tells Harry murder does to a soul. I am saying this kind of killing would not inflict that same sort of damage. As far as the idea that Snape has the power to "stopper death" -- either way of reading that can be interesting. I guess the reading that sees it as "create a potion that can kill and hold it in a bottle with a stopper" seems a bit obvious. I mean -- even a Muggle could create a potion that could kill, right. The dramatic tone of Snape's speech seems to indicate something more along the lines of "hold death back." That said, I mostly see this as a passing comment that does not hold a secret clue to whatever happened on the Tower that night. --The Barmaid From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Wed Aug 24 18:52:06 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:52:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138662 >Alla: >I said many times that I LOVED Lupin's boggart lesson. I did not >take it as a mockery of Snape or if it was it was an extra bonus, IMO. > >I am positive that Lupin's primary motivation was to help Neville, >NOT to mock Snape. > As a teacher, I also enjoyed this lesson. Even if Lupin had not originally intended to use Neville as the example student, once Snape criticised him in front of the whole class, using Neville was perfect. Lupin could guide him through the entire exercise as part of his teaching, thereby assisting him in getting each of the steps done correctly. All that Neville really has to do is to concentrate and do what he has been told. He needs courage to follow through with the plan, but that is what Griffindors are supposedly good at. It is a perfect example of scaffolding. Using a student with poor self-confidence helps him to become successful and boosts his self-esteem. I also don't think that Lupin knew Neville's boggart would be Professor Snape. My own feeling is that Lupin would actually have preferred it NOT to be him, as his relationship with Snape is already uneasy. But the boggart is what it is for each person, and once he had chosen Neville to use as the example student, he couldn't then back out and tell him to choose a less sensational boggart. In their marauder days, Lupin didn't participate in the Snape baiting - according to Sirius and as we see in the pensieve memory. He didn't attempt to stop it, but he also didn't actively support it. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From rt11guru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 18:52:57 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would Snape have to do.... / Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050824185257.53873.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138663 --- houyhnhnm102 wrote: > CathyD: > > > I still say Snape did pretty well as a teacher. > > houyhnhnm: > > Snape shows much more professionalism than some of the other staff. As > a teacher myself, I was appalled at Lupin's unprofessional behavior > when he set up a colleague for ridicule in the boggart lesson. > Absolutely unacceptable under any circumstances... Guru's turn: Consider the situation: Lupin's giving the class a chance to interact with a real boggart. The approved method for dealing with a boggart is to turn it into something that can be laughed at by the student. Neville's worst fear is Snape. In that situation, it appears to me, that Lupin had two choices. Set Snape up for ridicule, or exclude Neville from the practical part of the lesson because he has a fear that is "inappropriate". Guru ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 24 19:15:22 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:15:22 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138664 Laura Walsh: > As a teacher, I also enjoyed this lesson. Even if Lupin had not > originally intended to use Neville as the example student, once > Snape criticised him in front of the whole class, using Neville > was perfect. Lupin could guide him through the entire exercise > as part of his teaching, thereby assisting him in getting each of > the steps done correctly. All that Neville really has to do is to > concentrate and do what he has been told. He needs courage to > follow through with the plan, but that is what Griffindors are > supposedly good at. It is a perfect example of scaffolding. > Using a student with poor self-confidence helps him to become > successful and boosts his self-esteem. houyhnhnm: That was my take on the scene, too, the first time I read it. Lupin's behavior struck me as much less innocent on a second read. Certainly the suggestion to dress the Snape boggart as an old woman came from Lupin. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 19:41:44 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:41:44 -0000 Subject: Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "c_s_wagon" wrote: > Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters? > Does any one have any theories? I have wondered that, because of their use of Unforgiveables, they "feed" off the fear they create, specifically with the dark mark and the AK. What I do not think has been told is who gave them that name. Did LV create that name for his followers or was it a "nickname" that someone said/penned and it stuck? (If there is canon for the name, please respond because I just simply do not know). I also have wondered about the DeathEaters and the Dementors. Both now are supporters (for lack of a better word) for LV. With the Kiss, Dementors, in a way, are "Life Eaters." Just thought this was an interesting juxtaposition. From lolita_ns at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 19:38:08 2005 From: lolita_ns at yahoo.com (lolita_ns) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:38:08 -0000 Subject: Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138666 "c_s_wagon" wrote: > Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters? > Does any one have any theories? There are two possible explanations. The first, and in my opinion the more plausible one is the following: Voldemort's goal is to conquer death (at least, his own death, I don't really think he cares about anyone else). It is glaringly obvious from canon as well as JKR's interviews that Voldemort is terrified of dying. Ergo: He wants to destroy death. Virtually everything he had ever done was aimed at this. (Anyone out there who doesn't know what Horcruxes are used for? :) ). Now, one of the ways to destroy something is to eat it. Meaning: Death Eaters = People Who Eat/Devour/Destroy Death. The second possible explanation (although I must repeat that I absolutely prefer the first one) is that they enjoy killing, they absorb death. Ergo: Death Eaters = People Who Feed On Death. Lolita. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 19:50:31 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:50:31 -0000 Subject: Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138667 > > Del: > > > 2) You say that his entering the WW was some kind of chance to > > > change his life. But I don't think Tom saw things that way *at > > > all*. The very concept of changing one's life depends entirely > > > on someone realising that there has been something wrong with > > > the way they've lived their life up to now. As far as Tom was > > > concerned, the things that were wrong in his life were the world > > > he was living in, the people he was forced to live around, but > > > it was definitely *not* himself. He was special, he was better, > > > it's the others that were wrong. > Rebecca: > I think that Del's observation is central to the argument of whether > or not Tom Riddle had any chance of living a normal life when he > had 'never known love'. I think this part of Del's argument leaves out the question of how capable Tom was of seeing things any other way than how he did. If you go back to message #137644, by "docmara1," a psychologist, you'll see she talked about child development: > Mara: > From a psychological perspective, attachment is a complex concept, > but it develops in part from a child's experience of being loved -- > seeing the proverbial "gleam" in the other's eye (wonder if > DD's "gleam" is connected somehow..hmm.). Attachment is resilient > and evolving, and forms the bedrock of a person's personality > development. > Rebecca: > It was not what had happened to Tom that made him the person he was, > it was the way that he saw what had happened to him, and the way > that he reacted to it. "he was special" , "better", it was the > "others who were wrong". He was essentially arrogant and, basically, > not-a-nice-person. When you say "the way that he saw what had happened to him, and the way that he reacted to it" you imply choice. I think his choices were already severely constrained by the time he got old enough to make any; he had not had the nature (genetics) and nurture (caregiver bond) necessary to enable normal infant/child development. For him to even have a chance of learning that he was *human* (something he never did on the most basic level because he never bonded to one), by the time Dumbledore found him, would have taken intense, qualified attention he just didn't get. Rebecca: > I believe that, had Harry and Tom traded places at birth, Harry > would still have been 'good', and Tom would still have been 'bad'. I believe that JKR will not leave us with this conclusion. I think those fifteen months Harry had a loving mother and Tom didn't are going to turn out to be very important in terms of "culpability". I keep thinking that word or concept is going to come up again; I think we may see some philosophy on crime and punishment play a part in certain characters' fates, considering JKR's past and current ties to Amnesty International. Sandy aka msbeadsley From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Wed Aug 24 19:53:22 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:53:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138668 >houyhnhnm: > >That was my take on the scene, too, the first time I read it. Lupin's >behavior struck me as much less innocent on a second read. Certainly >the suggestion to dress the Snape boggart as an old woman came from >Lupin. But, given that Neville's boggart will be Professor Snape and given that, in order to master the boggart, you have to somehow make it so that you can laugh at it, what are the choices of what he could have had Neville do? How can he make Professor Snape amusing to the students? You certainly don't want to follow James' method and dangle him upside down and threaten to take off his pants. You don't want to give him the characteristics of a disgusting animal, say a slug or a pig. I think making the boggart into an old woman is relatively mild - at least it is human and not degrading. Neville's grandmother is obviously from a very well respected family - there is no implication that Snape as Neville's grandmother is debasing himself. It is just funny - a bit embarrassing from the cross-dressing point of view, but people have gotten laughs from that for years. How else WOULD you have made Snape into something funny? Snape is not a funny person. And making him forget how to make a potion is both too complicated to do in boggart circumstances and also not obvious enough to make it funny. Stuttering? Doesn't work for me. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 20:30:43 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:30:43 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138669 Laura Walsh wrote: > > Even if Lupin had not originally intended to use Neville as the example student, once Snape criticised him in front of the whole class, using Neville was perfect. Lupin could guide him through the entire exercise as part of his teaching, thereby assisting him in getting each of the steps done correctly. All that Neville really has to do is to concentrate and do what he has been told. It is a perfect example of scaffolding. Using a student with poor self-confidence helps him to become successful and boosts his self-esteem. > houyhnhnm reaponded: > > That was my take on the scene, too, the first time I read it. Lupin's behavior struck me as much less innocent on a second read. Certainly the suggestion to dress the Snape boggart as an old woman came from Lupin. Carol responds: I'm not sure how to respond to Lupin with regard to Boggart!Snape. Quite possibly you're both right. But my take on Snape's role in the incident has always been that he's reminding Lupin that the "class contains Neville Longbottom," whose parents were Crucio'd into insanity by Death Eaters. (Don't they exchange glances there, a possible bit of mutual Legilimency or mental telepathy?) At any rate, Snape would logically assume that the Death Eaters Neville saw in infancy would be his greatest fear, especially given his parents' fate, and IMO he is warning Lupin to be careful. Neville could be traumatized by such a boggart and the rest of the class terrified by a face-to-face confrontation with the seeming embodiment of undeniable evil. (Also Neville's boggart would reveal the secret of what happened to his parents, which Snape may think should remain concealed at this point.) Snape does not, of course, anticipate that he himself, hardly a comparable threat (a sarcastic teacher vs. a Crucioing Death Eater), will be Neville's greatest fear, and his intention to help (if I'm correct) backfires ironically. Snape being Snape, he probably assumes that Lupin mocked him intentionally and his dislike and suspicions of Lupin are intensified. As for Lupin, I think he does the best he can in an awkward situation (though I think he finds Neville's boggart and his method of ridiculing it more amusing than perhaps he ought to). More important, I think he does apply Snape's warning, not with regard to Neville but with regard to Harry, whose boggart Lupin assumes will be Lord Voldemort, and which he prevents the rest of the class from seeing (as I think Snape expected him to do with Neville's supposed DE boggart). If not for Snape, perhaps Harry's boggart would have been revealed in that class and Harry might never have had the one-on-one Patronus lessons with Lupin. On a sidenote, Lupin may have been applying the same strategy to avoid embarrassing Hermione, whose boggart he apparently guesses has something to do with educational failure. If so, the ironic consequence of this generous impulse is that she fails a segment of her DADA "practical" and gets an E instead of an O for her DADA OWL. All part of the persistent theme throughout the books that actions have unintended consequences. Carol From namiepark at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 20:41:24 2005 From: namiepark at yahoo.com (NamiePark) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:41:24 -0000 Subject: Harry is not a horcrux (HARRY'S SCAR IS NOT A HORCRUX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138670 I agree with the others who have said that Harry's scar is not a Horcrux--and would go so far as to say that it seems impossible for Harry to be a Horcrux either. Apologies if someone has already pointed this out but: Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow to kill Harry. Prior to attempting to kill Harry, he would not make him a horcrux (i.e., from the death of James or Lily or anyone else for that matter) because it wouldn't make sense to make Harry a horcrux and then kill his own horcrux. As we all know, when he did try to kill Harry, the curse rebounded on Voldemort and he was immediately rendered body-less and nearly powerless--seems like it would have been difficult, if not impossible for Voldemort to try making Harry a horcrux at this point (not sure he would have wanted to either, considering what had just happened). I believe that he also fled at this point. I don't think Harry's scar could be a horcrux for the reason set forth above. In addition to that, even barring the above-mentioned reason, I don't know that a scar, which is really just a lingering mark where an injury happened, would qualify as an "object." JMO of course. "Namie", who is hoping that Harry defeats Voldemort and lives to tell his grandchildren about it. From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 21:53:11 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050824215312.30179.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138671 lwalsh at acsalaska.net wrote: > How else WOULD you have made Snape into something > funny? Snape is not a funny person. And making him > forget how to make a potion is both too complicated > to do > in boggart circumstances and also not obvious enough > to > make it funny. Stuttering? Doesn't work for me. > To me that is what made Lupin such an awsome teacher. He was able to help Neville deal with his very real fear of Snape and make Neville realize that Snape wasn't so scary (even if was for a moment) laurie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 22:19:31 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:19:31 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts ongoing staffing problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > > "profuloth" wrote: > > > Maybe Harry will use Hogwarts as his base of operation and > > > skive off classes to find the remaining horcruxes. I can > > > see the remaining DA members being used to help him reseach > > > ... > > > > > > Jason > > > > Richard here: > > I don't see Harry using the DA to do research on horcruxes, ... > > > > Here's how I see the team. The research staff is, I believe, > > Hermione. The aide-de-camp is Ron. Bill will be the curse breaker, > > and the thief ... the breaking-and-entering specialist. I suspect > > that Ginny will end up the fourth musketeer ... > > > > Since Snape knows about 12 Grimmauld Place, it isn't a safe haven, > > and Godric's Hollow isn't, either, ... > > > > I see Hogwart's as the best base for Harry, even if he is not a > > student there. ...it has about as good research resources ..., > > isn't under the control of the Ministry ..., ... > > > > But, that's all just my opinion ... which can be (and often is) dead > > wrong. > > > > > > Richard, > > bboyminn: > > I don't think Harry wants to drop out of Hogwarts, afteral it is the > place he loves the most, but I think he sees higher priorities than > getting his NEWTs. As he said in the first book, if Voldemort wins, > Hogwarts won't matter much, it will either be destroyed or turned into > a school for the Dark Arts. So, the highest priority is for Voldemort > not to win. > > Personally, I am surprised that Harry training has lagged behind so > much. It seems reasonable that Harry would demand of Dumbledore much > earlier that he train him long and hard with serious efforts directed > toward defeating Voldemort. Of course, we know it is the flow of a > good story rather than common sense that is driving the plot in the > direction it has gone. It's very important for the hero to be the > underdog and (mostly) working alone. It is the fact that the hero is > illequipped to face the powerful villain, yet still willing to go, > that makes him a hero. None the less, I think Harry true education has > been sadly neglected. > > I'm not willing to write off 12 Grimmauld Place just yet. Harry or > someone else could still become the Secret Keeper under the > application new Secret Keeper Charm. The Secret Keeper Charm doesn't > necessarily prevent someone from knowing where a place is, but it > prevents them from finding and entering it. Certainly many in the > Black extended family know that 12 Grimmauld Place exists. Even after > Kreacher betrayal, Narcissa may have suspected that it was the > Headquarters, but she is prevented by the charm from conveying that > information to anyone. Snape say it himself, that even though > Voldemort knows that Snape knows the location of Headquarter the Charm > prevents him from saying it in any way. > > Now let's say the Narcissa suspected that 12 Grimmauld Place was the > Headquarters and she came to investigate. Too bad, whether she knows > where the house is or not, she still wouldn't be able to find it. As > far as she is concerned, as long as Dumbledore or the current Secret > Keeper hasn't reveal the information, the houses go from #11 to #13, > and #12 simply doesn't exist. > > So, as painfull a place to live as 12 Grimmauld Place may be, I > believe that Harry will still use it as a home or maybe just a house, > if not a headquarters because it is still capable of being > sufficiently protected. > > Even if that is true, I still see Harry spending a lot of time at > Hogwarts, not as an active student, but doing research, taking private > tutoring, and consulting with the wizards who are available to him there. > > That said; you have convinced, or nearly convinced, me that Harry > might make the school the headquarters of the Order. I mean it is a > fortified castle, it's remotely located, it's surrounded by walls, > it's surrounded by the strongest protections possible short of the > Secret Keeper charm. That's one reason why I think Slughorn will stay, > because Hogwarts is a protected fortress with plenty of talented > wizard close by to provide protection. > > Plus there is the convenience factor, living at the school, Harry > would have access to all the resources he needed. > > Still, as much as you have convinced me, I still say that 12 Grimmauld > Place is not out of the picture yet. > > For what it's worth. > > Steve/bboyminn Richard here: I don't think it is so much a matter of convincing anyone of anything, as simply speculating. JKR will tell us what happens, and we'll either like it or not. In a sense, I think the best way to read the story the first time is without speculation. This isn't a murder mystery, wherein part of the charm is figuring out who did the maid with the ... Oh never mind ... just my dirty mind getting carried away with me. Much though I enjoy speculation over whether Dumbledore is really dead or not, where Harry will spend his time, etc., my real preference is to let the story be the story. We are shown Dumbledore dead, and even if he isn't, it is going to be important in appreciating the story for us to understand that everyone "knows" he is dead. Tearing the story apart can come after JKR is done. Having said all that ... back to speculation because it is just plain fun! I don't think Harry gets to determine where headquarters for the Order is located. Without Dumbledore, the Order has to first decide who is in charge. Harry, "Chosen One" or not, is quite young, and now only he actually KNOWS (canonically) that he is. While I am confident he will be given a significant voice in such things, the facts as known even within the Order do not necessitate his being declared leader. The question is rather, "Where will Harry spend his time as he hunts down and destroys horcruxes, and prepares to meet Voldemort?" The headquarters of the Order are one logical place, but so is Hogwart's. If the protection of 12 Grimmauld Place has lapsed with the death of Dumbledore, and I were an enterprising Dark Lord, I'd be sure to put SOMETHING in that old house that can keep me informed of what takes place there, regardless of whether the protection is restored with a different secret keeper. Ergo, as an enterprising Order member or leader, I wouldn't want to vest that place with too much significance for quite a while, and were I Harry (rather than just hirsute) with all those Sirius memories about the place, I'd stay even clearer for a while. I don't think it IMPOSSIBLE that Harry will use 12 GP, just unlikely, just as I think it likely that he will need the resources of Hogwart's enough to at least visit frequently, and possibly even use it as his primary base. >From a pure story-line perspective, if Ginny, Neville and (possibly) Luna are to remain significant in the story (but still not central), it is hard to see how Hogwart's wouldn't be a major base, as I can't see all of their parents pulling their children from school unless the place were closed by the board of governors. An interesting point is that the Room of Requirement can still figure heavily in the story ... as the headquarters for Harry's Army. Draco demonstrated that it can be made quite difficult to gain entry, if you don't know what you must concentrate on needing. (The fact that Harry saw the vanishing cabinet when he was hiding the potions book shows it isn't impossible.) Couple the inherent complexity of getting in and use of a Secret Keeper, and it is potentially the most secure place in all the Wizarding World. (Let there be two secrets: the fact that it is the headquarters, and the thing that must be required in order for the room to become the headquarters. Now, let Voldemort figure THAT one out!) Now, I agree that Harry's highest priority is to defeat Voldemort, but that doesn't necessarily preclude Harry being a student at Hogwart's. He might well become the school's first wholly privately taught student ... In classes of one student for all subjects required for an Auror, so as to arm him as best as possible for the search and the battle. He would thus remain in school, which would be camouflage his activities in quest of the horcruxes to a certain extent, as well as giving him considerable latitude and accelerated training. Some of the problems with this are that someone has to approve such treatment, and thus must be given a sufficient argument to justify it, and the treatment has to be kept reasonably confidential. These seem to be contradictory. So, I still have an open mind about other possible residences-qua-bases-of-operations. Speculation must wait, though, as I have other crises to deal with besides Voldemort's impending ascension to power. So, until another time ... Richard From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 22:44:23 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:44:23 -0000 Subject: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > I think that if there were a fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry, > > Harry's and Voldemort's souls would have been at war with each other > > from the moment that the transfer took place. By the same reasoning > > that you use to ask what a fragment that had been in Harry for so > > long would do to Voldemort, I ask, "What would being in Harry do to > > such a fragment?" I think it would end up dead, as can be argued > > from Voldemort's experience in trying to possess Harry in OotP. Yet, > > I don't see support in canon for such an internal war. > > > > Valky: > > Believe it or not, Richard. I do see support in canon for such an > internal war. > > First there's the reason Dumbledore chose to put Harry into the > protection of his mothers blood, with the Dursleys, in spite of > several thousand other kinds of protection Dumbeldore could have used > instead to hide him from angry DE's and Vapour!Mort. There are quite a > few readers that feel this was never satisfactorily explained in light > of the awful treatment Harry endured from his Aunt and Uncle. The > debate on wether Dumbledore should have chosen to *leave* Harry in > this awful place for a decade could come to a grinding halt if we were > to find out that Tom could have possessed baby Harry without the > protection. It solves one of the mysterious contradictions in canon to > think that there is a piece of Toms Soul in Harry. > > Second there is Petunia, who knows about Voldemort, was told something > in a letter by Dumbledore and, I noticed at the end of PS/SS looked > downright terrified hen she saw Harry back from his first year of > Hogwarts. These things mke hrdly any sense, but if Petunia has been > told "the terrible truth" and the terrible truth is that Tom's soul is > in Harry and could possess him at any moment, but for the protection > of Lily's love that Dumbledore invoked after GH. > > Third there is Moody's comment in OotP that Voldemort could be > possessing Harry. The question of this seems to be closed by the > revelation that Harry and Voldemort are only connected by the scar, > and Voldemort was only putting idea in Harry's head through this > connection. However there is still canon support in that statement for > the notion that Moody knew of a reason why Voldemort might possess > Harry. > > Finally, for now, there is the two snakes from Dumbledores silver > instruments. Which are not easily explained by the connection between > them in the scar. There must be a reason why this still has a question > mark over it. And one answer is that there is a piece of Toms soul in > Harry, that is indeed still blocked by Lily's protection from > possessing him. > > I am not saying absolutely that Harry is a horcrux, but the arguments > for and against have all lacked this canon in them. I couldn't sit by > the fire without chucking in a few logs to keep it burning. ;D > > Valky > Remembering, Cedric Diggory Richard here: >From what I've read, my impression is that though Dumbledore had been seeking memories of Voldemort for some time, he did not know that there were horcruxes involved until AFTER the CoS appearance of Tom's diary. Even had he strongly suspected such prior to that episode, what canon is there to support that he believed such sufficiently to take the course of action he did BECAUSE he thought there might be a fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry? A linguistic point that may be important: a horcrux is aon object that by use of a spell contains a fragment of a soul. The horcrux is not the fragment of soul itself ... or that's the way I read it. Further, the danger I see in using a living thing as a horcrux is the mortality of the living thing itself. Such a horcrux is not protected against death by the presence of the alien soul fragment that we know of, and cna get itself into all manner of danger on its own. In the case of a human horcrux, the danger is even greater during a war wherein such a vessel may fall mortal victim to EITHER sides forces, as happened to one of the Death Eaters during the Battle of the Tower: killed by "friendly" hex. I doubt that the Dursleys would treat Harry abysmally as they have if they really feared that a very hostile, alien fragment of a soul might suddenly pop out and attack one and all. Treat him with kid gloves, or even fire-place tongs, sure, and probably not with great personal tenderness, but certainly not with wanton neglect and discrimination! What I see happening is the Dursley's believing that they are stuck with this "freak," his aunt thinking Voldemort dead, and behaving accordingly, given their low character and prejudices. The choice of a blood-based protection for Harry seems very obvious, and not contradictory at all with my line of reasoning. It was his mother's love and sacrifice that protected Harry from Voldemort, and evidently Dumbledore believed there were enduring residual effects from this protection to be derived from contact with Harry's remaining blood relative: Petunia. Therefore, put him with Petunia, tell her that this protection may not be necessary, but it will exist so long as she accepts him into her home and as a member of the family. No contradiction, hole, flaw or anything to explain away. I also don't see that a fragment of Voldemort in Harry would lead to external Voldemort possessing Harry in a manner that would show Harry what external Voldemort wanted him to see. I think it POSSIBLE, but not a strong argument, nor even evidence. Rather, we have that Voldemort didn't know what diary!Tom had been up to, nor that it had been KILLED. This is, of course, all speculation. I just don't see it your way, and will let JKR tell us the way it "really" is when she gets around to it. Just don't be disappointed if you are wrong ... I won't be if I'm proven wrong. Richard From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 00:09:23 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:09:23 -0000 Subject: Did Ollivander know about the Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I just had an idea that may or may not be important--... > > Ollivander says in SS/PS, in a scene which I think foreshadows a lot > of future events, "He who must not be named did great things. > Terrible, but great." ... Can he possibly know about the Horcruxes, > ... > > Any thoughts about how much Ollivander might know and how it ties in > with his disappearance? > > Carol, bboyminn: Hoping this post isn't too short... For a great theory on Ollivander and the Horcrux wand, see this post - From: "rachaelmcadams" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 1:57 pm Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136434 For an important and critical quote on this matter - "The last shop was narrow and shabby. Peeling gold letters over the door read Ollivanders: Makers of Fine Wnads since 382 B.C. **A single wand lay on a faded purple cushion in the dusty window**." [PS/SS Am Ed, PB, Pg 102] We have to wonder about the disappearance of Ollivander and Fortescue, and further wonder if they are still alive. I know it will break my heart if either of them are dead. Still, we are back to the central question of where is Ollivander? The link above speculates that the Ollivander is perhaps related to Ravenclaw, and that the wand on the cushion was indeed Ms Ravenclaw's wand and further a Horcrux. Perhaps, Ollivander was captures in an effort to get Ravenclaw's wand, and enchant it into a new Horcrux. Someone really needs to check and see if that purple cushion wand is still there. Steve/bboyminn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 00:16:41 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:16:41 -0000 Subject: *If* there is a piece of Voldemorts soul in Harry WAS Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138675 > Richard wrote: > > > I don't see support in canon for such an internal war. > > > > > > > Valky: > > > > Believe it or not, Richard. I do see support in canon for such an > > internal war. > Richard here: > > From what I've read, my impression is that though Dumbledore had > been seeking memories of Voldemort for some time, he did not know > that there were horcruxes involved until AFTER the CoS appearance of > Tom's diary. Even had he strongly suspected such prior to that > episode, what canon is there to support that he believed such > sufficiently to take the course of action he did BECAUSE he thought > there might be a fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry? Valky: I concede there is a good point there. The Diary was IIRC indeed *confirmation* of Voldemort using Horcruxes, but I concur with you in saying that Dumbledore could only act on speculation before this. But in OOtP Dumbledore does say to Harry, that when he saw the scar on Baby Harry's head that he knew it could mean something specific, and it was upon that which he decided the *only* way to truly preserve Harry was to invoke a further protection from Lily's sacrifice and place him within the 'circle' of her bloodline. He also says that perhaps noone but him *knew* just how much danger Harry was in. Dumbledore goes on to say that he knew also the scar was an indication of a 'connection' forged between Harry and Voldemort. What is most clear to me is that this set of 'clues' from Dumbledore don't make a whole lot of sense on their own. It is certain that at least one more point should be on the list before it adds up to something tangible. We don't have that one thing, and I am not all tht attached to the piece of Voldemorts soul in Harry hypothesis, it could be just that the connection could aid Voldemort in locating Harry. However, I will point out that adding this one thing (LV soul in Harry) to the list does complete *a* picture. I don't mind at all if it's the right one or wrong one, just that even if Dumbledore was acting on a hunch when proposing what the scar meant he had some knowledge to be going on with, so it's still a complete picture. > Richard: > A linguistic point that may be important: a horcrux is an object > that by use of a spell contains a fragment of a soul. The horcrux > is not the fragment of soul itself ... or that's the way I read it. Valky: Harry Horcrux fits this picture, thanks to Dumbledores silver instruments confirming that whatever is going on is/was still "in essence divided". > Richard: > Further, the danger I see in using a living thing as a horcrux is > the mortality of the living thing itself. Such a horcrux is not > protected against death by the presence of the alien soul fragment > that we know of, and cna get itself into all manner of danger on its > own. In the case of a human horcrux, the danger is even greater > during a war wherein such a vessel may fall mortal victim to EITHER > sides forces, as happened to one of the Death Eaters during the > Battle of the Tower: killed by "friendly" hex. Valky: I agree, which is more or less a reason why Voldemort would be particularly concerned about Harry's health if Harry was a Horcrux. There is no question in my mind that *if* Harry is a Horcrux it is only through accidental means, and only because Voldemort wanted Lily for a horcrux, not Harry. I absolutely believe that Voldemort would not want another Horcrux in the line of fire, like the Diary. He would want it protected well, it would need to be equipped with defenses of its own a well as, living or inanimate, Voldemort would equip it also with his defenses. Even after this he would most likely place his precious Horcrux in a locked parlour away from any destructive forces. Again a Horcrux who is a popular and powerful witch, further endowed with his powers and either secured in his quarters (probably intended to be Hogwarts) or otherwise *always* by his side foots the bill. It is fairly clear that Voldemort doesn't risk himself unnecessarily, he has his servants for that, so I would assume that he planned to conquer the world by destroying the only threat known to him (Harry), then sit himself on a throne while his DE's did the rest. A King needs a worthy Queen, and Lily most definitely proved herself his match when she screwed it all up for him. *If* Harry is a Horcrux, IMHO, these things follow and they are consistent with canon, so I don't feel any need to doubt them absolutely. > Richard: > I doubt that the Dursleys would treat Harry abysmally as they have > if they really feared that a very hostile, alien fragment of a soul > might suddenly pop out and attack one and all. Treat him with kid > gloves, or even fire-place tongs, sure, and probably not with great > personal tenderness, but certainly not with wanton neglect and > discrimination! What I see happening is the Dursley's believing > that they are stuck with this "freak," his aunt thinking Voldemort > dead, and behaving accordingly, given their low character and > prejudices. Valky: Again you have me conceding an excellent point Richard. I agree that the Dursley's wouldn't sit with this, and wouldn't mistreat Harry if they knew. If *they* knew. But I don't think that *they* know. I am dead certain that *only* Petunia knows, and sshe lives in permanenet regret of that day she "bitterly, unwillingly" took Harry into her home. In HBP, we see Dumbledore using a nt very nice kind of persuasion on the Head of the Orphanage, he dupes her, he uses some sweetening, confuses her mind a little and gets Tom to Hogwarts where he belongs. Defending Harry was even more imperative than reaching Tom, so we can't completely dismiss Dumbledore calling on all his resources to get this bitter unwilling concession from Petunia, once he had it, he needed only to tell Petunia, if you break it, we are all dead and you and your family will probably go first because you're the *only* thing that stands between Voldemort and this world, well actually the same would have happened if you said No but you've said yes, so we all have a chance now. Sorry to bear you all these bad tidings but now you have chosen to seal our pact you *have to* keep to it. Petunia could never tell this awful secret to her husband, and she would be terrified to break the pact just in case the old man was as good as his word. So she has lived horrifying fear for all these years, knowing alone that there was no way out. After a while Petunia might have begun to relax around Harry, he was after ll, so apparently harmless, and Vernon was squashing the magic out of him, so maybe it was all just a bad dream it seemed so long ago now after all. We see Petunia not walking on eggshells around Harry when he is going on eleven, and we are told that she was this way for a lot of Harry's life before this, however Harry isn't remembering the first year or two all that well he was only a baby then. She may have started to forget by then and relaxed herself around him. One thing is certain, *she* was *terrified* when Hogwarts returned to their lives and reminded her that Dumbledore was real, and she has been terrified ever since plus acting strangely every now and then. Again *if* Harry is an unintentional Horcrux, many revelations follow IMO. > Richard: > The choice of a blood-based protection for Harry seems very obvious, > and not contradictory at all with my line of reasoning. It was his > mother's love and sacrifice that protected Harry from Voldemort, and > evidently Dumbledore believed there were enduring residual effects > from this protection to be derived from contact with Harry's > remaining blood relative: Petunia. Therefore, put him with Petunia, > tell her that this protection may not be necessary, but it will > exist so long as she accepts him into her home and as a member of > the family. No contradiction, hole, flaw or anything to explain > away. Valky: I see something to be explained. Protection from what? that Dumbledore couldn't give himself. Voldemort is scared of Dumbledore, and his half-dead disembodied soul wasn't likely to risk being destroyed by DD at the time when he didn't know what had actually saved him from death, he had no powers except possession, and he went into hiding. The DE's too, could have been defended against by Dumbledore so it can't be them. I concede that it *may* have been Voldemorts disembodied Vapour!Mort that DD was defending against, but it's also likely that DD could have protected Harry by other means from V!M. This is not the strongest canon argument to the point, but it is still conceivable that what was threatening Harry the most wasn't from outside of him, and thats why his protection needed to be invoked from inside him. > Richrd: > I also don't see that a fragment of Voldemort in Harry would lead to > external Voldemort possessing Harry in a manner that would show > Harry what external Voldemort wanted him to see. Valky: No I agree, it is more likely that some other connection is in play here, a separate kind of magic placed deliberately on the intentional *living* Horcrux so that they *could* see each others thoughts from a distance. Voldemort seems to have placed this magic in Nagini, and Harry too can see inside Nagini from a distance, so the connection seems to be the same. > Richard: > This is, of course, all speculation. I just don't see it your way, > and will let JKR tell us the way it "really" is when she gets around > to it. Just don't be disappointed if you are wrong ... I won't be > if I'm proven wrong. Valky: Agreed, I just enjoy the thrill of the ride myself, I have always enjoyed the story as JKR tells it regardless of what I had previously imagined was going to happen, and I always will. ;D > > From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 00:21:44 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:21:44 -0000 Subject: Witherwings /was Spinners End and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138676 vmonte: My sister mentioned to me today that it's funny that Buckbeack was renamed Witherwings because Dumbledore also has a Withered Wing (as was already posted here). My sister also mentioned that Buckbeak had a rebirth of sorts during PoA when he was saved by Hermione and Harry via time-travel. Oh God, is time-travel coming back? Vivian From nannie333 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 22:04:34 2005 From: nannie333 at yahoo.com (Nannie333) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:04:34 -0000 Subject: you look just like your father, except your eyes...... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138677 Hello Everyone, I am a long time lurker and a first time poster, so please bare with me! Has anyone noticed that all of the "good" guys, (ie. Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, etc.) tell Harry that "he looks just like his father, but he has his Mother's eyes", and the two "baddies" that mention Harry's parents only tell him that he looks like or is like his father, with no mention of Lilly. Wormtail (in HPPA) says, "Harry...Harry...you look just like your father...just like him..." And there are, of course, hundreds of references of Snape telling Harry that he is just like James. (My apologies to those of you that think Snape is a good guy.) Does anyone think that this is significant? Could it have something to do with the power of love and the fact that Lord V and his followers can not recognize it? This is as far as I have come along with this theory, and wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. Leesa From redwooddawn at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 21:27:00 2005 From: redwooddawn at hotmail.com (redwooddawn) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:27:00 -0000 Subject: The DADA jinx and its victims (Was:The best reason for Dumbledore to trust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138678 Carol wrote On a side note, I would like to see Snape and Lupin form a common cause against Voldemort, understanding that through the curse, he has used their own weaknesses against them, with terrible consequences for them both. Dawn: I think your post does an excellent job of demonstrating that the DADA curse uses the vulnerabilities of whoever is in the DADA position, to reveal their true nature, and use that nature to destroy them (whether physically or spiritually). And, I think having that type of curse is a perfect reflection of the HBP theme ? that by succumbing to his own vulnerabilities, Voldemort has sealed his own fate. DD has made it clear throughout HBP that Voldemort's vulnerability was in believing the prophesy, and so he validated the prophesy by inadvertently empowering Harry to be the Chosen One. Here's a brief summary of DADA teacher nature's and downfalls: (feel free to revise my word or quality choices, as I'm doing this quickly) Quirrell: subservience and intelligence/ possession and death Lockhart: ruthless egocentrism and ambition/ loss of fame and identity Lupin: caring werewolf/ social outcast and poverty, "weariness" Mad Eye: vigilant paranoia (justified)/ kidnapped and impersonated Umbridge: loathsome hag, politically ambitious/ terrorized by those she demeaned and persecuted (she got off too easy, IMO) Snape: indecipherable spy/ forced to get off the fence and take an unforgivable action The revealing of one's true nature seems key to this curse (as well as the series), and it occurs to me now that DD has had many years to observe what this curse does to a person, and how it plays out. I suspect he finally allowed Snape to fill the position because he needed to know Snape's true nature. DD has protected, tolerated and included Snape over the years for very good reasons I'm sure, but increasingly since Harry arrived to Hogwarts and Voldy resurrected, serious doubts have been cast against Snape's character. After DD's great error in judgment that he admitted to in OotP in not sharing more information with Harry sooner in Harry's life, it's safe to say DD has been inclined to question his other stances, if only internally. DD is a benevolent being, but he's not all candy and sunshine ? he's a master manipulator when the situation requires it, (recruiting Slughorn, his vague allusions to obtaining memories.) Free choice is one of the highest virtues in DD's character, and while he may have been subtly manipulating Snape towards atonement over the years (by keeping him from the DA temptation), there comes a time when one's choices must speak for themselves, when one must go it alone. We know that's now true for Harry, and he's proved himself ready to DD, but the other soul in question is Snape. After reading all of your discussions, I'm inclined to believe there was an agreement between DD and Snape (regarding the murder) but it may have only been reached after a year of Snape being under the scrutiny of the DADA curse. First time out for me, Dawn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 01:21:44 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:21:44 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138679 > > Carol responds: > But my take on Snape's role in the incident has always been that he's > reminding Lupin that the "class contains Neville Longbottom," whose > parents were Crucio'd into insanity by Death Eaters. (Don't they > exchange glances there, a possible bit of mutual Legilimency or mental > telepathy?) Alla: If Snape is warning Lupin to be careful, then why couldn't he take Remus aside and tell him without other students hearing it? Especially if you are saying that telepathy was at work here. I think Severus knew exactly what he was doing and that would be making poor Neville suffer more. But those are fundamental differences we have in reading Snape's character. :-) I will always remain convinced that Snape gets quite a kick from watching his students' sufferings. I speculate and that is of course only speculation,but I believe that there are hints to confirm it, that even IF Snape turned to Light genuinely, he never completely abandoned his desire to cause pain to those who are weaker than him . In his DE times there were Muggles and now he had his students as poor substitute for that. :-) > Laura Walsh: > > > As a teacher, I also enjoyed this lesson. Even if Lupin had not > > originally intended to use Neville as the example student, once > > Snape criticised him in front of the whole class, using Neville > > was perfect. > > Using a student with poor self- confidence helps him to become > > successful and boosts his self-esteem. Alla: I agree, Laura. Here is the link to my post "Lupin's teaching methods" if anyone's interested. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128479 Let me just end with the following - even though I do consider JKR's interview to be important for the canon interpretation, I don't need an interview in order to admire Lupin's teaching skills. I think JKR described them perfectly. But to me it is very telling that JKR said that Lupin is the teacher she would love to teach her daughter. JMO, Alla. From wrexx at hotmail.com Wed Aug 24 22:46:49 2005 From: wrexx at hotmail.com (wrexx1) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:46:49 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138680 lebeto: > And for the final point, I'm not sure but does it say anywhere > that one needs to be alive for their spell to work. I thought it was > a time based thing. For instance, in the first book when Hermione > hits Neville with the Petrificus Totalus I believe it runs off after a > certain amount of time otherwise she needs to keep concentrating on > having Neville frozen long enough for them to get to Fluffy's room. Wrexx: Agreed, Lebeto; the books abound with spells that were left behind by dead folks. Look at Sirius' house for example; it took a major house cleaning to remove spells cast by people who were long dead. Wrexx From raganne at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 23:15:01 2005 From: raganne at gmail.com (bimbledor) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:15:01 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138681 Gatta wrote: > > > > Which brings me to an interesting (at least to me) speculation about > Snape's actual feelings about Harry, and how Harry ended up with > Snape's Potions textbook. If Snape hated James (which he pretty > obviously does) but loved Lily, even from afar, he would be bound to > feel rather ambivalent about their son. Could he have planted the book > in the Potions classroom in the knowledge that Harry, having been > turned down for his (Snape's) N.E.W.T.s class but accepted for > Slughorn's, would arrive at Hogwarts without a textbook? And the hope > that Harry, having acquired the book and recognized it for the > treasure it was, would hang onto it as a kind of legacy from its > previous owner? Is this a kind of passing of the torch? If so, it > would be of a piece with Snape's other attempts to prepare Harry for > the contest that lies ahead of him. bimbledor: I wondered about that, also. Snape's character seems far too anal to have simply forgotten a book as personal as his Potions one. However, leaving it behind with other textbooks in the cupboard meant Ron could as easily have received it as HP. It seems highly unlikely that Snape or whoever planted the book would have brought Slughorn in on the secret exchange. Also, Snape's reaction when he legilimenses HP after HP has shouted Sectumsempra at Malfoy, would have to be regarded as a complete fake from beginning to end. The line of speculation here begins to get too convoluted and far from the canon for me to support. p. 524, HBP US ed.- the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making sawm hazily to the forefront of his mind. "Do you know what I think, Potter?" said Snape, very quietly. "I think that you are a liar and a cheat and that you deserve detention with me every Saturday until the end of term." I am left to conclude that in his ecstasy over finally gaining the DADA job, he simply uncharacteristically forgot his text in the back of the cupboard. The fact that he calls HP a cheat IMO is definitive that he would never have given the book to HP willingly. I do think one of the reasons DD finally gave Snape the DADA job was to ensure that HP could continue to a NEWT in Potions, in order to enable HP to gain the skills if not the position of an auror. I thought about DD planting the book, but the same problem arose re Ron receiving it. I also can't imagine DD including Slughorn in secret plans, either. Any further thoughts on this? From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 01:36:30 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:36:30 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138682 > Carol responds: > I agree with all of your arguments about Dumbledore being dead. I also > believe that Harry, still in shock, is telling the truth *as he > perceives it*. But a *jet* of green light ("jet" being the word used > when "Stupefy" and other neutral spells are cast) is not the same as > "a blinding flash of green light," the description that almost always > accompanies a description of an AK. As you say, that flash is Harry's > first memory, and it does not at all resemble Snape's presumed AK. > (There's no rushing sound, either, and DD is "blasted" into the air > rather than falling instantly dead. His eyes are closed and his > expression is peaceful--all very un-AKlike. And Snape, of course, has > been a skilled caster of "nvbl" spells since at least age sixteen.) phoenixgod2000: Ahhh, done moving, internet back up and ready to jump back into Snape-hunting territory. I think the reason why the AK is different than ones we've previously seen is the simple fact that Harry is seeing it from a different perspective. Almost every other time Harry has seen an AK used it was aimed at either himself or someone near him. Of course its going to look more like a flash than a jet. Of course he's going to hear a sound that might be different when he is farther away and out of line of fire. As for Dumbledore's expression, I would think it odd if DD died in any way other than tranquil considering what we know about the man. And I am still not convinced that the 'blast' wasn't the simple inertia of the spell and his now dead weight carrying him over the side. > Snape's spell more closely resembles a disguised Impedimenta than an > AK. (To my knowledge, we've never been told what color the light is > from that spell. It could be green.) Is there any evidence of a spell being disguised as a seperate spell in HP? is there any evidence of wizard casting one spell nonverbally while casting a second spell out loud? On a similar vein, is there any evidence that Legimency can be used to trasmit messages in addition to seeing memories and feelings? I think that Snape is a good wizard, maybe even a great one, but I doubt that even he could cast one spell out loud while simultaneously casting a second one silently. there would be clues that such a thing is possible in the book, but AFAICR there is not. Voiceless spells seem to be incredibly hard and require a trememdous amount concentration. Even Voldemort doesn't casually throw around voiceless unforgivables so trying to use two spells at the same time when one is difficult to cast is a stretch. As for the impedimenta being green, I doubt it. The killing curse seems unique looking and I doubt a common spell would look so much like it. > Aside to Eggplant: Examining the evidence to see if there's more than > meets the eye is not "bending over backwards" to support our theories. I think in a way it is bending over backwards. Your theory rests on Snape using magical powers there isn't any evidence even exist in canon. > It's understanding how JKR's narration works. For those who view the > books as two halves of a whole (based on JKR's own statement), the > chief difference between this book and its predecessors is that the > mystery has not yet been resolved. Just as she made Fake!Moody appear > to be a good guy in GoF, she may be (quite convincingly) making Snape > appear evil in HBP (though he does, directly or indirectly, save four > characters from death). But there were clues to those mysteries laid out and the abilites used in the mystery were clearly defined before hand. Your theory requires magical abilies not seen before in any of the books. Writing a mystery without actually telling us that the skills used in it are possible seems to me to be in pretty bad form. phoenixgod2000 From lolita_ns at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 00:57:01 2005 From: lolita_ns at yahoo.com (lolita_ns) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:57:01 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138683 Eggplant: > Depending on circumstances we've seen Avada Kedavra leave a scar, > destroy a house and smash a very large statue into dust. In fact I > don't think we've seen that particular curse work exactly the same way > twice. Actually, we have seen AK performed in the same way not twice, but thrice - remember the Riddles? And, apparently, if cast right, AK does not leave a trace (the Muggle authorities could not find anything wrong with the Riddles' bodies, and Dumbledore's body was the same - to Harry, Dumbledore seemed merely asleep). The only AK that we know of that has left a trace is the botched one Voldemort used on Harry (and even if we still don't know what exactly went wrong there, we can at least agree that it was not a textbook example of a well-cast AK). Otoh, AK does tend to destroy any objects in its way (as was seen in the scene of the duel in DoM in OotP). As for the house that got destroyed, I rather suspect that, if Wormtail was present that night at Godric's Hollow (Who led Voldemort to the house? Who picked up his wand and gave it back to him after all those years?), it was most definitely his doing (after all, he is well known for such explosions, remember that he blew up a street full of people as a punch line of his confrontation with Sirius). And as for the thery that Snape did not use AK to kill Dumbledore... What could possibly be gained, plotwise, by that? Kill him he did, and what does it matter what curse he used? If he is ever proven to be not- completely-evil, it will most probably be because of some preconceived master plan between him and Dumbledore, and not beacause of the fact that, in killing Dumbledore, he did not use the AK curse. And Dumbledore is definitely, but most definitely, truly dead (otherwise, all of JKR's comments on death being definite, no spell being powerful enough to resurrect the dead, etc. would be a load of... well, you know. Not to mention the fact that, in the sense of pure literary value, the books would suffer a lot if Dumbledore turned out to be alive and kicking after all. And you can trust me on that, I am, after all, an English teacher and a postgraduate in Anglo-American literature. :) ) Lolita. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 02:23:57 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 02:23:57 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138684 Combining responses to everyone... > Potioncat: > You know, since you put it this way, I wonder why the publishers > didn't have this scene on the cover? Could have been a real bodice > ripper! What that wouldn't have done to sales. Neri: I think Severus and Cissy would still have a close contest from Won-Won eating Lav-Lav's face. > Potioncat: > Cissy And Severus Talking Old Romance. One Ill-fated Love! CASTOR OIL. > Carol: > How about ACID POPS? It's got a C and an S in it and it fits "the > nature of the affection." You can figure out what it stands for if you > like. Neri: CASTOR OIL is very good. ACID POPS is so cool but has very few letters to work with. Lets see, how about Alluring Cissy In Distress Provoked Old PassionS. No, wait, wait, maybe Alluring Cissy Inveigled Dangerous Promises Of Passionate Severus. Is that grammatical at all? Okay, I'm not very good at this myself, but give me a month or two. > houyhnhnm: > But. > If your analysis is correct, then the idea of Snape in love isn't > horrible, merely pitiable. Neri: Well, yes. But then the end result of his love is quite horrible, isn't it? > Jen: Part of the reason this chapter was so compelling in retrospect > is how it fits in the with theme of the book. We know what part the > UV played in the plot, but HBP is at the core about obsession. > Merope's obsession with Riddle leading to the birth of her son and > her own death; Voldemort's obsession with immortality; even > Dumbledore has an obsessive air about him during the Horcrux search. > This chapter can easily fit into the theme even if it doesn't turn > out to be obsessive love. Neri: Yes. I have to admit that before HBP I was arguing against LOLLIPOPS on the ground that JKR isn't much of a SHIPper. Heh, HBP certainly changed my mind about that, although I still think she's not a *good* SHIPper. The S/N scene was kind of overdone, wasn't it? But no doubt obsession, love and obsessive love played a center role in HBP. Actually I'm currently entertaining a complex speculation that would make Snape here even more sneaky, thematic and, in the End, pitiful. Right now Faith is having a go at it, but it might survive her. Neri From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 03:20:26 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 03:20:26 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138685 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > is there any evidence of wizard casting one spell nonverbally > while casting a second spell out loud? I think that Snape is a good wizard, maybe even a great one, but I > doubt that even he could cast one spell out loud while simultaneously > casting a second one silently. We do know that two simultaneous nonverbal spells can be cast by one wizard. In OOP Dumbledore uses one motion of his wand to cause Voldemort's conjured snake to disappear and to cause a curtain of water to engulf Voldemort at the same time. > As for the impedimenta being green, I doubt it. The killing curse > seems unique looking and I doubt a common spell would look so much > like it. Actually there are other spells that produce a green light. One of them happened accidentally when Ron tried to use the Eat Slugs curse on Malfoy. A "jet of green light" (the same words JKR uses for the spell cast by Snape) shot out of the wrong end of Ron's broken wand and hit Ron instead. So a jet of green light does not necessarily equal an AK. I think there is one other common spell that produces a green light, but I can't put my finger on it right now. Merrylinks From kjones at telus.net Thu Aug 25 03:20:53 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:20:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANTS! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430D3915.4090306@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138686 Richard here: > > >From what I've read, my impression is that though Dumbledore had been > seeking memories of Voldemort for some time, he did not know that > there were horcruxes involved until AFTER the CoS appearance of Tom's > diary. Even had he strongly suspected such prior to that episode, > what canon is there to support that he believed such sufficiently to > take the course of action he did BECAUSE he thought there might be a > fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry? Richard Kathy writes: Actually, my impression is that Dumbledore suspected something was happening to Voldemort when he applied for a job. His appearance was beginning to change that far back. Dumbledore could well have been curious about what was likely to cause such changes. Once the events at Godric's Hollow were over, and it became obvious that Voldemort was not actually dead, Dumbledore started his fact gathering mission. He may have had his suspicions. KJ > Richard > A linguistic point that may be important: a horcrux is aon object > that by use of a spell contains a fragment of a soul. The horcrux is > not the fragment of soul itself ... or that's the way I read it. > Further, the danger I see in using a living thing as a horcrux is the > mortality of the living thing itself. Richard Kathy writes: I think we are all in agreement that if it happened at all, it certainly was not done intentionally. It was an accident. KJ Richard > The choice of a blood-based protection for Harry seems very obvious, > and not contradictory at all with my line of reasoning. It was his > mother's love and sacrifice that protected Harry from Voldemort, and > evidently Dumbledore believed there were enduring residual effects > from this protection to be derived from contact with Harry's > remaining blood relative: Petunia. Richard Kathy writes: Don't forget that something happened to that as a result of Voldemort using Harry's blood to get himself a body. It was after that when the connection between them grew stronger. Voldemort using Harry's blood was thought to decrease the effects of Lily's protection as Voldemort could now touch Harry. Something about that also caused Dumbledore a triumph of some sort. KJ Richard > I also don't see that a fragment of Voldemort in Harry would lead to > external Voldemort possessing Harry in a manner that would show Harry > what external Voldemort wanted him to see. I think it POSSIBLE, but > not a strong argument, nor even evidence. Rather, we have that > Voldemort didn't know what diary!Tom had been up to, nor that it had > been KILLED. Richard Kathy writes: I think that canon shows that Voldemort still can not actually possess Harry because of Harry's own protections. He can affect his actions and thoughts. Thereis obviously something causing this connection and HBP was all about horcruxes and soul splits. This has to tell us something. KJ From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 03:35:13 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 03:35:13 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (and Snape's DE past) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138687 > phoenixgod2000: >And I am still not convinced that the 'blast' wasn't the > simple inertia of the spell and his now dead weight carrying him over > the side. zgirnius: Throughout the conversation with Draco, Dumbledore is described as slumped against the wall. And he is described at least three times as slumping further down. Snape, when he casts the spell, whatever it is, points the wand at DD, thus, downwards. > phoenixgod2000: > I think that Snape is a good wizard, maybe even a great one, but I > doubt that even he could cast one spell out loud while simultaneously > casting a second one silently. > I think in a way it is bending over backwards. Your theory rests on > Snape using magical powers there isn't any evidence even exist in > canon. zgirnius: This is not actually necessary. Snape could say the words Avada Kedavra and cast the mystery spell nonverbally *immediately* afterwards. Observers would not see any difference if Snape is fast enough. And as an excellent dueller, he probably is fast. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 03:46:34 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 03:46:34 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138688 "lolita_ns" wrote: > And as for the thery that Snape did not use AK to kill Dumbledore... > What could possibly be gained, plotwise, by that? Kill him he did, and > what does it matter what curse he used? If he is ever proven to be not- > completely-evil, it will most probably be because of some preconceived > master plan between him and Dumbledore, and not beacause of the fact > that, in killing Dumbledore, he did not use the AK curse. zgirnius: Oh, the most important reason some of us want the spell to be anything but a successful AK is not plot-related, rather, it relates to character development. Is Severus Snape a man who is capable of forming the requisite intent to perform the AK, an Unforgiveable Curse, successfully against Dumbledore, who is such a good man, and to whom Snape owes so much? Even if we learn he has been on the "good guys" side all along, his ability or inability to cast that AK says something important about the kind of man he is. And, perhaps, by extension, about DUmbledore's judgement in trusting Snape. Which is why, Snape sap that I have become after readin Book 6, do prefer to believe the spell was either a mystery nonverbal spell, or an AK which failed in the sense that, while it hit its target, it did not have behind it the necessary evil intent. (We've never seen one of these. It could certainly behave differently that a standard AK in ways beyond simply leaving the victim alive.) And there could be a plot reason as well. If Snape is still on the good side, how is the good side to ever realize this? JKR has many options open to her: the grand self-sacrificing gesture by Snape and/or unambiguous bottled memories of Dumbledore come to mind. But another way could be for someone like Hermione (a logical thinker) to learn of the possible oddities in the death scene and be inspired to investigate further. From PenapartElf at aol.com Thu Aug 25 03:54:54 2005 From: PenapartElf at aol.com (PenapartElf at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:54:54 EDT Subject: ADMIN: Tink-Tink-Tink! Message-ID: <89.2dc521b0.303e9b0e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138689 Dearest Sirs and Misses, Please join your friendly neighborhood List Elves in raising a tankard of butterbeer for a toast in honor of the fifth anniversary of the HPforGrownups Yahoo list, which was opened for business five years ago: "HERE'S to FIVE more YEARS!" You are also hereby cordially invited to the Mixer at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/28724 Grab the libation of your choice [butterbeer, chilled or hot and foamy; pumpkin juice; hot chocolate; tea (jasmine, oolong, white, chai, and even iced but no tea bags, thankyouverymuch); gillywater; cherry syrup and soda, on rocks; elderflower wine; nettle wine; elf-made wine; Madame Rosmerta's oak-matured mead, mulled; sherry; red currant rum; whisky (single malt and Ogden's Old Firewhisky); Mrs. Ogden's SureFire Hangover Tonic...] and join in the Mixer! Say, if you whip up your own concoction at the self-service bar, do tell us the name and the recipe. Is that Felix Felicis in your flask? Why yes, a drop in my goblet would be just the thing, thank you... :) The List Elves aka The HPfGU List Admin Team From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Thu Aug 25 04:39:59 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 04:39:59 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138690 > > > houyhnhnm: > > But. > > If your analysis is correct, then the idea of Snape in love isn't > > horrible, merely pitiable. > > Neri: > Well, yes. But then the end result of his love is quite horrible, > isn't it? > Speaking of SHIPpers, here's a story premise that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, but enthusiastic SHIPpers might: The hazards of "bagging" a victim while coed members of the student body are looking on--their reactions might be a wee tad different from yours... Or, did Narcissa *have* to marry Lucius to disguise a little indisretion with Severus in the Room of Requirement??? And what does that suggest to us about the relationship between Snape and Draco??? And ooh, those furtive afternoons in the rooms above the Leaky Cauldron, much more relaxed, of course, when Lucius is rusticating in Azkaban... --Gatta From merpsiren at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 02:24:45 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 02:24:45 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138691 Lolita wrote: > And as for the thery that Snape did not use AK to kill Dumbledore... > What could possibly be gained, plotwise, by that? Kill him he did, > and what does it matter what curse he used? If he is ever proven > to be not-completely-evil, it will most probably be because of some > preconceived master plan between him and Dumbledore, and not > beacause of the fact > that, in killing Dumbledore, he did not use the AK curse. And > Dumbledore is definitely, but most definitely, truly dead > (otherwise, all of JKR's comments on death being definite, no > spell being powerful > enough to resurrect the dead, etc. would be a load of... well, you > know. Kris here: The whole theory behind Snape not really using the AK is most definately in explanation of a greater plan between Snape and Dumbledore. I agree that it really doesn't matter what spell was used to kill DD, if in fact he was killed. And yes, death is definately final... as JKR makes clear. The small caveat would be that Peter Pettigrew was *dead*... at least to all who saw his death, as well as to those who were told of his death. So the clarification of what effects (and inconsistencies) the AK had on Dumbledore's body is to question if we are really seeing another "Pettigrew". From merpsiren at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 02:39:35 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 02:39:35 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138692 > bimbledor: > I > thought about DD planting the book, but the same problem arose re Ron > receiving it. I also can't imagine DD including Slughorn in secret > plans, either. > > Any further thoughts on this? Kris: I believe that Slughorn was specifically brought to Hogwarts so that Harry would be able to further his education with Potions... and that the potions book was also intentionally meant to land in Harry's hands (what better way to peak Harry's interest than to give him a book that is *unusual*)... but how do you ensure Harry gets his hands on the right book? How about Felix Felicis? We know a cauldron full was available and if Dumbledore, Slughorn, or Snape... or really any person trying to get the book to Harry could definately take a small dose and the book would *luckily* find its way... What do you think? From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Thu Aug 25 05:31:00 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:31:00 -0000 Subject: Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138693 > > Rebecca: > > I believe that, had Harry and Tom traded places at birth, Harry > > would still have been 'good', and Tom would still have been 'bad'. > > I believe that JKR will not leave us with this conclusion. I think > those fifteen months Harry had a loving mother and Tom didn't are > going to turn out to be very important in terms of "culpability". I > keep thinking that word or concept is going to come up again; I think > we may see some philosophy on crime and punishment play a part in > certain characters' fates, considering JKR's past and current ties to > Amnesty International. > > Sandy aka msbeadsley > Interesting sideline here: See Dr. Robert Hare on whether psychopaths are born or made. (He maintains that the basic psychopathic personality is inborn, but its manifestation is affected by nurture.) --Gatta From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 25 09:56:02 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:56:02 -0400 Subject: Did Ollivander know about the Horcruxes Message-ID: <003d01c5a95b$38ff4a20$6cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138694 Steve/bboyminn >>The link above speculates that the Ollivander is perhaps related to Ravenclaw, and that the wand on the cushion was indeed Ms Ravenclaw's wand and further a Horcrux. Perhaps, Ollivander was captures in an effort to get Ravenclaw's wand, and enchant it into a new Horcrux. >>Someone really needs to check and see if that purple cushion wand is still there. CathyD: It's not there. "Shop's empty. No sign of a struggle. No one knows whether he left voluntarily or was kidnapped." (HBP pg 104 Can Ed) I'm past thinking the LV is making *new* Horcruxes. He believes seven is the most powerfully magical number so he was shooting for seven pieces of soul. If Dumbledore is right then Nagini is the sixth and final Horcrux. If LV is making new ones we'll never get to the end of the story. If, as others believe, Harry's scar is a Horcrux, there is already one extra and one of which Harry & Co. are not yet aware. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 25 10:01:32 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 06:01:32 -0400 Subject: A Possible Horcrux Message-ID: <004301c5a95b$fdaf0130$6cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138695 Am I the only one who thinks The Opal Necklace could be a Horcrux? Borgin and Burkes is LV's first place of employment. Some significance to that. It is also through B&B that he came to acquire the Slytherin Locket and Hufflepuff Cup. Does that make B&B significant as a hiding place? B&B had the Locket in their possession for some time although it was an heirloom of Slytherin. Would it not be possible that they acquired, either previous to Riddle's employment, or that he acquired it himself, a necklace that was an heirloom of Ravenclaw's? So Riddle acquires the necklace, performs the charm that turns it into a Horcrux, adds a couple of curses for good measure and attaches a note that reads "Do Not Touch. Cursed -- Has Claimed the Lives of Nineteen Muggle Owners to Date" as a ruse to keep people from buying it and it has been sitting in B&B for around 50 years. Draco acquires the necklace and sends it, via an Imperiused Katie, to Dumbledore. Katie has a friend who is looking out for her and they argue, the package rips open and Katie is cursed and sent off to St. Mungo's but not until after Snape has a good look at the necklace and did "enough to prevent a rapid spread of the curse." Where is the necklace now? Snape knows. Did Snape unknowingly destroy another Horcrux or more possibly just break the curses but not destroy it? That leaves the Hufflepuff cup to be hidden at Hogwarts - I'm quite certain something is there. I'm not sure it is the Award for Special Services as I'm not convinced that it is important enough. The interview with Dumbledore, coming 10 years after LV acquired the locket and cup, showed he was still on the lookout for items from the four founders. There was still a lot of time to cover between that interview and when LV was vapourized; he had lots of time to keep looking for the illusive heirloom of Gryffindor to complete the set. It also leaves the sixth item, the one LV was going to use when he killed Harry. I'm not hanging on to this theory for dear life. It just came to me one day while reading. Harry & Co. have a lot of work to do if they have to find and destroy four Horcruxes and LV before the end of 7th year. I thought it would be an interesting twist if another had been *unknowingly* found and possibly destroyed. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Aug 25 10:22:28 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:22:28 -0000 Subject: Harry as a Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138696 Geoff: Let me first of all say that I haven't been following the threads on Horcruxes since 16/07 in any great detail - they're in the same category to me as Snape in that, being a bear of very little brain, I haven't tried to think my way through the maze of conflicting and speculative theorising that has enveloped the group about these topics. However, I was casually skimming through one or two posts when the following thought occurred to me. I think it has been postulated that if the "vessel" holding the Horcrux is destroyed, then the Horcrux itself is destroyed. Right. Now, if Harry is a a Horcrux - or carrying a Horcrux - depending on your view, why has Voldemort attempted to kill Harry on several oocasions which would not do the Horcrux a lot of good? I shall now sit back and wait for messages asking why I haven't been paying attention at the back of the class because this has been answered at least 49 times in the last five weeks. :-) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 11:14:44 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:14:44 -0000 Subject: Did Ollivander know about the Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138697 > Carol: > > Any thoughts about how much Ollivander might know and how it ties > > in with his disappearance? > > > > Carol, > > bboyminn: > > Hoping this post isn't too short... > > For a great theory on Ollivander and the Horcrux wand, see this post - > > From: "rachaelmcadams" > Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 1:57 pm > Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136434 > > For an important and critical quote on this matter - > > "The last shop was narrow and shabby. Peeling gold letters over the > door read Ollivanders: Makers of Fine Wnads since 382 B.C. **A > single wand lay on a faded purple cushion in the dusty window**." > [PS/SS Am Ed, PB, Pg 102] Valky: I checked that Link Steve, but I think you might maybe have put the wrong message in the link. I was skimming through PS/SS just today gathering little tidbits with fresh eyes, and I noticed the quote that you've put above and remembered your post. I figured it wouldn't hurt to look for evidnece of a Horcux being there in Ollivanders, and WOW!! I have to ask you, did the message that you've intended to link to mention that Harry's hairs on his neck stood up on end and that the dust in the room seemed to tingle with magic? If it did then there is no wonder to me that you found it a great theory and I am totally with you on that. The three largest clues I think here are: The traces of magic in the store. Ollivander looking very closely at Harry's scar and saying "So that's where -" leaving a space for us to assume knowledge of what he's thinking, and a space for JKR to drop something entirely different to what we assumed into the story.. Harry not feeling right about Mr Ollivander. The wand sitting on a cushion in a dusty window. (indicating that noone has gone near it for a long time) I think that these things might add up to a very evil Mr Ollivander. > Steve: > We have to wonder about the disappearance of Ollivander and > Fortescue, and further wonder if they are still alive. I know it > will break my heart if either of them are dead. Valky: Well I will be at least very sorry if Fortescue is gone, I am very fond of Ice-cream. > Steve: > Someone really needs to check and see if that purple cushion wand is > still there. > Valky: Arthur tells us the "shop" is empty, no sign of a struggle, but Harry doesn't see it for himself, and there's no mention of the display window specifically. I am curious as to whether it's still there, but I don't think we'll be finding out til book seven. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 11:48:16 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:48:16 -0000 Subject: Harry as a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138698 > Geoff: > However, I was casually skimming through one or two posts when the > following thought occurred to me. I think it has been postulated > that if the "vessel" holding the Horcrux is destroyed, then the > Horcrux itself is destroyed. > > Right. Now, if Harry is a a Horcrux - or carrying a Horcrux - > depending on your view, why has Voldemort attempted to kill Harry on > several occasions which would not do the Horcrux a lot of good? > > I shall now sit back and wait for messages asking why I haven't been > paying attention at the back of the class because this has been > answered at least 49 times in the last five weeks. :-) Valky: I have one more post today, so I'll take up your request Geoff :D First up. About destroying a Horcrux. Strictly on the canon that we have, your postulation is correct. The canon we have is Harry destroying the Diary, and Dumbledore telling us that he has destroyed the ring Horcrux. All it takes apparently it to conquer the defenses and destroy the object, however, I find it extremely hard to believe that Voldie would make it so easy. Ad I do wonder and speculate on what that all important impossible defense Voldemort would want on his Horcruxes, might be. Personally I find it hard to believe that Voldie would demand anything less than 1 death per Horcux. He esteems himself far too much and believes too deeply in the finality of death for me to be comfortable assuming that he would guard his Horcruxes more "cheaply" than that. So much of my speculation that Horcruxes are more complicated than we really know, is based on Voldemort Character canon rather than strict facts in evidence. AS for why he tried to kill Harry so often, if Harry is a Horcrux of Voldemorts soul, the only possible answers are that Voldmeort didn't realise it until recently, or else, there is a way Voldmeort can extract the Horcrux from Harry in the process of killing him. For me personally, any discussion of this theory is intriguing, I am fencesitting with a pile of canon to throw in when the fire dies down. I hope to get it all discussed thoroughly by the great minds here before I decide. Valky From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 25 11:55:16 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 07:55:16 -0400 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence...) Message-ID: <002501c5a96b$ddda1920$3762d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138699 Carol said: > Snape's spell more closely resembles a disguised Impedimenta than an > AK. (To my knowledge, we've never been told what color the light is > from that spell. It could be green.) phoenixgod2000 replied: >>Is there any evidence of a spell being disguised as a seperate spell in HP? is there any evidence of wizard casting one spell nonverbally while casting a second spell out loud? I think that Snape is a good wizard, maybe even a great one, but I doubt that even he could cast one spell out loud while simultaneously casting a second one silently. there would be clues that such a thing is possible in the book, but AFAICR there is not. Merrylinks >>Dumbledore brandished his wand in one, long, fluid movement -- the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke; the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass -- Matt: >>When Pettigrew faked his death, we are given to understand that he did three things almost simultaneously: >1) Cut off his finger, >2) Blasted open the street, and >3) Assumed his rat form. >>We know (at least Peter doesn't deny it) that he "blew apart the street with the wand behind his back." We don't know whether Peter cut off his finger magically, but it seems likely (otherwise was he manipulating both a wand *and* a knife with the hand behind his back?). Both spells most have been non-verbal, since all the witnesses heard was Peter's denunciation of Sirius (which also gives credenc to the idea that one can perform a non-verbal spell even while shouting something else). CathyD now: Well, that's enough evidence for me that more than one spell can be cast at the same time. Thanks for connecting the dots. I think if anyone could do it Snape would be well able to cast what appeared to be an AK verbally and something else non-verbally. It is fairly obvious to me, at least, that Dumbledore did not die instantly as he should have done if hit with an AK (as Frank Bryce, the spider, Cedric and Fawkes all did). It is interesting to note that Expelliarmus, which usually simply disarms the other person, acted very strangely when Snape used it on Lockhart in Duelling Club: "Both of them swung their wands up and over their shoulders. Snape cried: 'Expelliarmus!' There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: he flew backwards off the stage, smashed into the wall and slid down it to sprawl on the floor." (CoS pg 142 Can Ed) Extra powerful Expelliarmus or an extra spell? Only JKR knows for sure! ;-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamess at climaxgroup.com Thu Aug 25 12:21:58 2005 From: jamess at climaxgroup.com (James Sharman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:21:58 +0100 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD27@mimas> No: HPFGUIDX 138700 I've not seen this one anywhere, so I hope I'm not treading on anyone's toes. When I first read HBP, learnt about Horcrux's etc.. I immediately had the theory that I've seen banded around that Harry is the 6th Horcrux. However I'm no longer very sure about this, it's just too obvious and I don't think JKR would let such a crucial thing be so easily worked out. I'm convinced that Dumbledore was correct in suggesting the snake. However that still leaves the possibility that the connection between Voldemort and Harry is Horcrux related. My theory depends on one simple thing, the spell used to create a Horcrux. We know that killing creates an injury to the soul. And this can be used by a dark wizard to create a Horcrux (Remember that Slughorn specifically said that this involves a spell). If as I suspect the spell must be performed alongside the killing curse then it creates a very interesting possibility. Lord Voldemort turns up at Godrics Hollow intent on killing Harry and creating his 6th and final horcrux from the death (Remember Dumbledore suggested that this was his intent). He deals with James and Lilly and is then faced with Baby Harry. He performs the preparation spell for the creation of a Horcrux and performs the killing curse on Harry, the spell we know rebounds and 'kills' Voldemort. But what if the Horcrux spell also rebounded. There is a possibility here that Voldemort has become a Harry Horcrux, Interesting idea? It would certainly lead to some interesting interpretations of the prophecy that I think would have appealed to JKR. A slight variation is that Voldemort was carrying an object with him with that he intended to be the receptacle of his Final Horcrux, and this could have become Harry's if the spell had in some way already target it. I'll be interested to hear people's thoughts about this. From rt11guru at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 12:38:09 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD27@mimas> Message-ID: <20050825123809.90590.qmail@web52911.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138701 --- James Sharman wrote: > I've not seen this one anywhere, so I hope I'm not treading on anyone's > toes. > > > Lord Voldemort turns up at Godrics Hollow intent on killing Harry and > creating his 6th and final horcrux from the death (Remember Dumbledore > suggested that this was his intent). He deals with James and Lilly and is > then faced with Baby Harry. He performs the preparation spell for the > creation of a Horcrux and performs the killing curse on Harry, the spell we > know rebounds and 'kills' Voldemort. But what if the Horcrux spell also > rebounded. There is a possibility here that Voldemort has become a Harry > Horcrux, Interesting idea? It would certainly lead to some interesting > interpretations of the prophecy that I think would have appealed to JKR. > Canon says that a horcrux holds a piece of a soul that has been split when it's owner commits murder or some other horrific deed. I don't see how anything Harry could have done at that tender age would have split his soul. Babies at that age do some things that are truly disgusting, but hardly soul rending. Guru __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jamess at climaxgroup.com Thu Aug 25 13:04:44 2005 From: jamess at climaxgroup.com (James Sharman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:04:44 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A new Horcrux theory. Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD28@mimas> No: HPFGUIDX 138702 --- James Sharman wrote: > I've not seen this one anywhere, so I hope I'm not treading on anyone's > toes. > > > Lord Voldemort turns up at Godrics Hollow intent on killing Harry and > creating his 6th and final horcrux from the death (Remember Dumbledore > suggested that this was his intent). He deals with James and Lilly and is > then faced with Baby Harry. He performs the preparation spell for the > creation of a Horcrux and performs the killing curse on Harry, the spell we > know rebounds and 'kills' Voldemort. But what if the Horcrux spell also > rebounded. There is a possibility here that Voldemort has become a Harry > Horcrux, Interesting idea? It would certainly lead to some interesting > interpretations of the prophecy that I think would have appealed to JKR. > --Guru Said Canon says that a horcrux holds a piece of a soul that has been split when it's owner commits murder or some other horrific deed. I don't see how anything Harry could have done at that tender age would have split his soul. Babies at that age do some things that are truly disgusting, but hardly soul rending. --James Says Sorry, I thought I had made that bit clear. The thought here was the whole set of spells backfired on Voldemort as if coming from Harry. So the AK did it's work on LV as if Harry had cast it, and the soul damage occurred. Ok so this bit doesn't sound very nice but JKR has made it clear that something pretty unique happened then. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 13:28:15 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:28:15 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD27@mimas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Sharman wrote: > I've not seen this one anywhere, so I hope I'm not treading on anyone's toes. >When I first read HBP, learnt about Horcrux's etc.. I immediately had the theory that I've seen banded around that Harry is the 6th Horcrux. >He [Voldemort] performs the preparation spell for the creation of a Horcrux and performs the killing curse on Harry, the spell we know rebounds and 'kills' Voldemort. But what if the Horcrux spell also rebounded. There is a possibility here that Voldemort has become a Harry Horcrux, Interesting idea? Merrylinks: I'd say no to both ideas, based on a paragraph in HBP. Dumbledore is talking to Harry: "...You hve flitted into Lord Voldemort's mind without damage to yourself, but he cannot possess you without enduring mortal agony, as he discovered in the Ministry. I do not think he understands why, Harry, but then, he was in such a hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole." The first sentence tells me why Harry cannot be a Horcrux. Voldemort only has a small fraction of his soul left inside his body. Yet that bit cannot stand to possess Harry for even a short time. How could a piece of Voldemort's Horcrux soul have managed to live inside Harry there for fifteen years? The second sentence tell me that Harry's soul cannot have been made into a Horcrux. In my opinion, Dumbledore is telling Harry that he has incomparable power *because* Harry soul is still untarnished and whole. You brought up another point I would like to address: >Lord Voldemort turns up at Godrics Hollow intent on killing Harry and creating his 6th and final horcrux from the death (Remember Dumbledore suggested that this was his intent). He deals with James and Lilly and is then faced with Baby Harry. He performs the preparation spell for the creation of a Horcrux and performs the killing curse on Harry Voldemort was carrying an object with him with that he intended to be the receptacle of his Final Horcrux Merrylinks: What happened to the object that was supposed to be the Final Horcrux? After the AK rebounded, Voldemort no longer had a body. He dropped his wand, which (years later) was returned to him by Peter Pettigrew. We assume that he left a corpse behind. If so, was the Final Horcrux object on the body and (presumably) buried with it? We also know that the house was destroyed. Was the Final Horcrux object somewhere in the wreckage? Presumably there were lots of household artifacts there, so an additional object might not have been noticed. Has the Final Horcrux object been buried at the local landfill, or is it residing on a shelf at somebody's house in Godrick's Hollow? Since Voldemort was not able to use the object successfully, this may only be a rabbit trail. On the other hand, it may have something to do with the reason that Harry wants to return to Godrick's Hollow. Merrylinks From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 13:33:15 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:33:15 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138707 James wrote: My theory depends on one simple thing, the spell used to create a Horcrux. We know that killing creates an injury to the soul. And this can be used by a dark wizard to create a Horcrux (Remember that Slughorn specifically said that this involves a spell). If as I suspect the spell must be performed alongside the killing curse then it creates a very interesting possibility. Lord Voldemort turns up at Godrics Hollow intent on killing Harry and creating his 6th and final horcrux from the death (Remember Dumbledore suggested that this was his intent). He deals with James and Lilly and is then faced with Baby Harry. He performs the preparation spell for the creation of a Horcrux and performs the killing curse on Harry, the spell we know rebounds and 'kills' Voldemort. But what if the Horcrux spell also rebounded. There is a possibility here that Voldemort has become a Harry Horcrux, Interesting idea? It would certainly lead to some interesting interpretations of the prophecy that I think would have appealed to JKR. A slight variation is that Voldemort was carrying an object with him with that he intended to be the receptacle of his Final Horcrux, and this could have become Harry's if the spell had in some way already target it. vmonte: I think that Voldemort is turned into Vapormort by Lily's sacrifice, so he would never have been able to perform the horcrux ritual/spell. I do think, however, that it is possible that whoever went with Voldemort to Godric's Hollow attempted to do some sort of spell/ritual that caused the explosion that rocked the house. I think that Snape was at GH and that he attempted to become a horcrux so that he could get Voldemort's power. HBP P510-511 "It is Voldemort's fault that you were able to see into his thoughts, his ambitions, that you even understand the snakelike language in which he gives orders, and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world (****which, incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to have****), you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts..." I've been rereading the books and I'm getting big signs that Snape has his own separate agenda in operation. I'm not sure that some of Harry is in Voldemort though. Wouldn't Harry physically change once his soul got split. I seem to remember that Tom Riddle had red slitted eyes during one of the penseive memories. I do like your theory though that Voldemort might have someone's soul piece inside him. If there is a horcrux in Voldemort perhaps it's Lily? He may have stupidly transfered her soul piece into himself during the blood ritual in GoF. Maybe Harry was originally carrying his mom and Tom. Vivian - Just a thought From jamess at climaxgroup.com Thu Aug 25 13:47:52 2005 From: jamess at climaxgroup.com (James Sharman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:47:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A new Horcrux theory. Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD2A@mimas> No: HPFGUIDX 138708 vmonte: I'm not sure that some of Harry is in Voldemort though. Wouldn't Harry physically change once his soul got split. I seem to remember that Tom Riddle had red slitted eyes during one of the penseive memories. James: The Scar? If the hole process was a bit messed up, then maybe we are only talking about a tiny fragment. Just enough to make a small disfigurement? Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 13:50:44 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:50:44 -0000 Subject: *If* there is a piece of Voldemorts soul in Harry WAS Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138709 > Valky: > I see something to be explained. Protection from what? that > Dumbledore couldn't give himself. Amiable Dorsai: How is Dumbledore to protect Harry? Adopt him? Why would a very old, single man be allowed to adopt an infant he is not related to? Yes, Dumbledore has considerable prestige, yes, he heads the Wizengamot (actually, I'm not sure that was true when the Potters were killed, but suppose it is), so what? There must be some second or third cousin of James' out there who would have a better claim, being family. There were powerful, married politicians (Barty Crouch Sr. comes to mind) who could claim to be able to give Harry a better home. Sirius Black, who Dumbledore has every reason to believe is a traitor, could make a claim as Harry's godfather (he doesn't seem to have caught up to Peter yet, as Dumbledore was leaving Harry on the Dursley's doorstep). Even if Dumbledore could eventually get legal custody of Harry, surely there would be court battles--Harry could end up in Ministry custody while it's all sorted--and Dumbledore knows the Ministry is shot through with Voldemort supporters. No, Petunia is perfect, from a legal POV. She's Harry's closest living relative--given the wizarding world's apparent obsession with family, that appears to give her an unassailable claim. She's a Muggle, and hence, unlikely to let anyone who isn't Dumbledore's agent that she don't actually want him. And, growing up in a Muggle household, Harry will be protected from undue attention by the Ministry's own Secrecy Laws. Shame Harry had to be forced on her. Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 13:59:39 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:59:39 -0000 Subject: you look just like your father, except your eyes...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nannie333" wrote: > Has anyone noticed that all of the "good" guys, (ie. Dumbledore, > Sirius, Lupin, etc.) tell Harry that "he looks just like his father, > but he has his Mother's eyes", and the two "baddies" that mention > Harry's parents only tell him that he looks like or is like his > father, with no mention of Lilly. > > Wormtail (in HPPA) says, "Harry...Harry...you look just like your > father...just like him..." And there are, of course, hundreds of > references of Snape telling Harry that he is just like James. (My > apologies to those of you that think Snape is a good guy.) > > Does anyone think that this is significant? Could it have something > to do with the power of love and the fact that Lord V and his > followers can not recognize it? This is as far as I have come along > with this theory, and wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. Amiable Dorsai: My personal belief is that both Peter and Snape had a thing for Lily, in fact that the reason LV tried to spare Lily at first was that he'd promised her to one or the other of them as payment for services rendered. If so, Snape, at least, wanted to compare Harry to someone he loathed, rather than someone he loved (or, at least, lusted after). Peter might simply have felt too guilty about it. Amiable Dorsai From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 14:08:46 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:08:46 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138711 I vmonte wrote: I do like your theory though that Voldemort might have someone's soul piece inside him. If there is a horcrux in Voldemort perhaps it's Lily? He may have stupidly transfered her soul piece into himself during the blood ritual in GoF. Maybe Harry was originally carrying his mom and Tom. me again: I actually like this idea. I wonder if Lily knew that her death was inevitable and preplanned her sacrifice? Maybe she planned to protect Harry by splitting her soul in half so that she could remain inside Harry and protect him. (Didn't Dumbledore mention that he only knew of one wizard who actually split their soul in half? Maybe he meant Lily?) Maybe Lily performed the horcrux ritual in advance so that when Voldemort attempted to kill Harry she would sacrifice herself into Harry, while also causing Voldemort's destruction. I like this a lot. Voldemort was brought down by a mom who would do anything to protect her son. Just like what Narcissa did to Snape. The vow was his downfall too. Never underestimate a mother's love for their child! Vivian From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 14:15:19 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:15:19 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138712 Sandy aka msbeadsley: > "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, whey he didn't just throw > Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he *knew* the > diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning > the pages, as if it were a story he wanted to finish. And while > Harry had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed > to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd > had when he was very small, and half-forgotten." > > This is (in the wake of HBP) one of the most tantalizing sections in > the series, if you ask me. Either Harry is experiencing an affinity > as side-effect of having had some of Voldemort's powers transferred > to him, or the diary has a spell on it to make it attractive in this > way, or Harry really is a horcrux and is sensing the relationship > between the part of Voldemort's soul he carries and the one in the > diary. Amiable Dorsai: Thanks for the quote, I thought I remembered something like that. It is tantalizing, isn't it? Neglecting your second possibility, whether Harry's a Horcrux or not his connection to LV means that he has a connection (of some sort) to chunks of Voldie's soul. That may provide a solution to the problem of how in the world Harry is going to find all the rest of the pieces. Amiable Dorsai From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Thu Aug 25 14:32:12 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:32:12 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138713 > > bimbledor: > > I wondered about that, also. Snape's character seems far too anal to > have simply forgotten a book as personal as his Potions one. However, > leaving it behind with other textbooks in the cupboard meant Ron could > as easily have received it as HP. > That, at least, would not have been too great a problem. He would have had a 50-50 chance of getting Harry on the first bounce, and if Ron had gotten the book, it seems to me Snape could have rigged a way of swapping them. --Gatta From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 25 14:36:12 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:36:12 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138714 Laura Walsh: > But, given that Neville's boggart will be Professor Snape > and given that, in order to master the boggart, you have to > somehow make it so that you can laugh at it, what are the > choices of what he could have had Neville do? How can > he make Professor Snape amusing to the students? You > certainly don't want to follow James' method and dangle > him upside down and threaten to take off his pants. You > don't want to give him the characteristics of a disgusting > animal, say a slug or a pig. I think making the boggart into > an old woman is relatively mild - at least it is human and > not degrading. Neville's grandmother is obviously from > a very well respected family - there is no implication that > Snape as Neville's grandmother is debasing himself. It > is just funny - a bit embarrassing from the cross-dressing > point of view, but people have gotten laughs from that for > years. > > How else WOULD you have made Snape into something > funny? Snape is not a funny person. And making him > forget how to make a potion is both too complicated to do > in boggart circumstances and also not obvious enough to > make it funny. Stuttering? Doesn't work for me. Carol responds: > I'm not sure how to respond to Lupin with regard to > Boggart!Snape. > Quite possibly you're both right. > But my take on Snape's role in the incident has > always been that he's reminding Lupin that the "class contains > Neville Longbottom," whose parents were Crucio'd into > insanity by Death Eaters. (Don't they exchange glances there, a > possible bit of mutual Legilimency or mental > telepathy?) At any rate, Snape would logically assume > that the Death Eaters Neville saw in infancy would be > his greatest fear, especially given his parents' fate, > and IMO he is warning Lupin to be careful. houyhnhnm: Nah, I don't think he's that good, Snape apologist though I may be. I see Neville/Snape!boggart/Grannie as part of a Snape-Lupin feud paralleling the confrontaion between Snape and Sirius which takes place in the kitchen at 12 Grimmauld Place. Why carry out this lesson in the staff room? Lupin didn't take Harry to Filch's office for the patronus lessons. Why not remove the boggart to a classroom? Lupin marches his entire class into the staff room during what just happens to be Snape's free period. Snape reacts churlishly because his territory has been invaded (Students aren't allowed in the teachers' lounge at my school under any circumstances). Lupin retaliates by choosing Neville to demonstrate the riddikulus charm. Would Neville's boggart have been Snape on a different day in a different place? He's seen plenty of horrors at St. Mungo's whether he actually saw his parents being tortured or not (or remembers it). If Snape had chosen another student to bully in front of Lupin, would Lupin have picked that student instead of Neville. Lupin didn't have to turn Snape into an old woman. He could have suggested something less humiliating. The lesson is a set-up from the get-go, IMO. I know this scene has been argued over before. I guess what caused me to think of it again is the fact that so many of the threads lately have dealt with the nature of good and evil. Is Slughorn really good? Is Snape really evil? What I am beginning to see, though I don't know if Rowling is going there, is an exposition of the banality of evil. Evil having its genesis, not in superbads like Valdemort and Grindelwald, but in the petty sins of commission and omission carried out by "good" people--Slughorn giving Tom Riddle information about horcruxes out of indolence and vanity, Dumbledore's mistakes, the bully behavior of James and Sirius. And Lupin, in this instance. I like Lupin, but I think he was out of line this time. Snape undoubtedly had already provoked him. Snape's treatment of Neville was deplorable. But if Lupin's concern is really for Neville, why not just make a decision to take the boy under his wing for the whole term? Maybe you would set up a colleague for public ridicule because you didn't like the way they treated students, Laura, but I wouldn't. I would try to find a better way to handle it. From kjones at telus.net Thu Aug 25 14:41:14 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 07:41:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horcruxes anew In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430DD88A.8030408@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138715 amiabledorsai wrote: > Sandy aka msbeadsley: > > This is (in the wake of HBP) one of the most tantalizing sections in > > the series, if you ask me. Either Harry is experiencing an affinity > > as side-effect of having had some of Voldemort's powers transferred > > to him, or the diary has a spell on it to make it attractive in this > > way, or Harry really is a horcrux and is sensing the relationship > > between the part of Voldemort's soul he carries and the one in the > > diary. > > > Amiable Dorsai: > Thanks for the quote, I thought I remembered something like that. > It is tantalizing, isn't it? Neglecting your second possibility, > whether Harry's a Horcrux or not his connection to LV means that he > has a connection (of some sort) to chunks of Voldie's soul. That may > provide a solution to the problem of how in the world Harry is going > to find all the rest of the pieces. KJ writes: I think it is interesting as well that Dumbledore allowed Harry to try to call the horcrux in the cave to him. If it had been a true horcrux, would it have recognized a part of itself in Harry? Harry also was not able to stick his hand into the potion, so again the defenses did not recognize him. There did seem to be some affinity between the diary and Harry. This is a very interesting line of inquiry. Are there any other instances in the books where Harry felt something about an item. JKR said that careful readers would be able to identify at least one of the hircruxes. KJ From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 15:07:59 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:07:59 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138716 Gatta wrote: > That, at least, would not have been too great a problem. He would have > had a 50-50 chance of getting Harry on the first bounce, and if Ron > had gotten the book, it seems to me Snape could have rigged a way of > swapping them. zgirnius: Yes. In fact, anyone familiar with Slughorn would just put the HBP's book on top. The probability of Harry getting it would then certainly be higher than 50-50. I mean, to whom is Sluggie going to give a book first, the famous Harry Potter, or Reginald Whistley? (hee hee) I also second bimbledor's question, though. If Snape was behind getting the book to Harry, why did he act as he did when he discovered Harry knew Sectumsempra? If he was just trying to hide that it was *his* book by his surprised reaction, why did he later tell Harry he was teh HBP? Just curious how you;re thinking about this... From pipes814 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 12:25:33 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:25:33 -0000 Subject: Hufflepuff's Cup Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138717 I searched for a while and didn't find any threads on where the cup may be hidden, and apologize if I missed it. So, what do you think? A bit of a longshot, but could it be the goblet of fire? We know the cup has unknown magical properties. We also know it's beautiful and the goblet is not, but wouldn't it make sense for LV to transfigure it before placing it under DD's nose? It's quite possible that the goblet remained in its casket a long time before the triwizard tournament, so DD may not have known what it looked like. Jamie From pipes814 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 12:37:06 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:37:06 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD27@mimas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Sharman wrote: > There is a possibility here that Voldemort has become a Harry > Horcrux, Interesting idea? Really interesting idea, but since Harry hasn't killed anyone his soul is whole. If a horcrux spell did backfire in this case, I would guess that either nothing would happen at all, or that Harry's entire soul would be transferred, which obviously isn't the case. I have doubts that the spell could cause Harry's soul to split instead of LV's. Jamie From ushit_k at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 12:40:12 2005 From: ushit_k at yahoo.com (ushit_k) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:40:12 -0000 Subject: you look just like your father, except your eyes...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138719 Nannie333 wrote: > Has anyone noticed that all of the "good" guys, (ie. Dumbledore, > Sirius, Lupin, etc.) tell Harry that "he looks just like his father, > but he has his Mother's eyes", and the two "baddies" that mention > Harry's parents only tell him that he looks like or is like his > father, with no mention of Lilly. [Snip] > Does anyone think that this is significant? It could be that the "good" guys, know Harry much better, were involved in his parents lives, and the bad guys, either do not Know Harry well, or do not know his parents. They are also trying to kill Harry most of the time, so perhaps have not cared to gaze in his eyes. "ushit_k" From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 12:53:18 2005 From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Patronius In-Reply-To: <1124947767.1875.51962.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050825125318.6627.qmail@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138720 In reading the various Snape arguments and that Snape's patronius revealed would give too much away, I was thinking what thought could Snape have that would allow him to make a patronius. Harry had to really dig down to make his. I think someone like DD for all being head of school and his other responsibilities to the WW could come up with a thought to bring about his, as the others we know that have them (other than Snape, that is). Since it's white as opposed to dark magic, I don't think the thoughts of gleefully torturing students, muggles etc would do it. Do DE's have patronius; maybe those who, like Draco, had a loving parent, but still turned and followed family into the DEs? Just thinking. Cat Life's like a movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending.--Kermit the Frog From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Thu Aug 25 13:27:08 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:27:08 +0200 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD28@mimas> References: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD28@mimas> Message-ID: <430DC72C.8060901@me.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138721 >--James Says > >Sorry, I thought I had made that bit clear. The thought here was the whole >set of spells backfired on Voldemort as if coming from Harry. So the AK did >it's work on LV as if Harry had cast it, and the soul damage occurred. Ok so >this bit doesn't sound very nice but JKR has made it clear that something >pretty unique happened then. She also mentioned, in an interview, that the fact that everyone says Harry has his mother's eyes is significant somehow to the plot. Perhaps it has to do with whatever spell she did to protect him. /Fabian From muellem at bc.edu Thu Aug 25 16:23:02 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:23:02 -0000 Subject: Patronius In-Reply-To: <20050825125318.6627.qmail@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cat wrote: > In reading the various Snape arguments and that Snape's patronius revealed would give too much away, I was thinking what thought could Snape have that would allow him to make a patronius. > I think a *happy* memory for Snape was when he turned to Dumbledore and DD accepted him into the Order. To get out from under LV and start working for the *good* team my 2 knuts colebiancardi From juli17 at aol.com Thu Aug 25 16:32:48 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:32:48 EDT Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidenc Message-ID: <1e5.433bc816.303f4cb0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138724 Eggplant writes: Depending on circumstances we've seen Avada Kedavra leave a scar, destroy a house and smash a very large statue into dust. In fact I don't think we've seen that particular curse work exactly the same way twice. This desperation to make Snape innocent or Dumbledore not dead reminds me of the silly Serious is not really dead stuff when OOTP first came out. It's time to get over denial, the characters may not have developed in ways you like but it's JKR's book. Eggplant Julie says: Eggplant, I would respectfully ask that you quit demeaning people who don't agree with your opinion by saying they're in denial, or going on about them doing backflips and whatnot when they quote canon inconsistencies. In fact there *are* many canon inconsistencies in both fact and behavior in HBP, which JKR inserted deliberately to keep the mystery going until Book 7. As for JKR, I totally agree that they are her books, and it's not her job to make everybody like the way the characters develop or end up, but to write them the way she sees them. That said, none of us--including you--are JKR, and none of us--including you--know how the saga is going to end nor have the final take on the characters. I believe JKR is a good enough writer to make whatever her plan is--DDsMan!Snape or ESE!Snape, Real AK or Fake AK, etc--totally believable and supported by the ambiguous plot points in HBP (which will of course be made unambiguous once the full plot is revealed). So let us all concede that we do not KNOW what will happen, we can only guess, and short of guesses contradicted by ABSOLUTE FACT, any guess is as valid as another (and probability is at least partly in the eye of the beholder, and perhaps meaningless, since JKR has shot probability to hell more than once in her books). Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From richard.broadley at btinternet.com Thu Aug 25 13:38:31 2005 From: richard.broadley at btinternet.com (Richard (Shoggz) Broadley) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:38:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: What would Snape have to do.... Message-ID: <20050825133831.11610.qmail@web86507.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138725 bimbledor: >I am left to conclude that in his ecstasy over finally gaining the >DADA job, he simply uncharacteristically forgot his text in the back >of the cupboard. The fact that he calls HP a cheat IMO is definitive >that he would never have given the book to HP willingly. >I do think one of the reasons DD finally gave Snape the DADA job was >to ensure that HP could continue to a NEWT in Potions, in order to >enable HP to gain the skills if not the position of an auror. I >thought about DD planting the book, but the same problem arose re Ron > receiving it. I also can't imagine DD including Slughorn in secret > plans, either. :[Richard] Here's mine.. I think that Harry getting his hands on the book was pure chance. It's possible that Snape may have been like Harry, in that he arrived for Advanced Level Potions sans the appropriate text book. Upon this circumstance, the school may have lent him a 'pool copy', which he then annotated heavily! On leaving the school, he may have been required to return it to the 'spares section'. It has possibly been in the hands of a number of students since, but probably none as 'experimental' as Mr Potter! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 17:04:28 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:04:28 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? (ACID POPS?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138726 Carol wrote: > > How about ACID POPS? It's got a C and an S in it and it fits "the nature of the affection." You can figure out what it stands for if you like. > Neri kindly responded: ACID POPS is so cool but has very few letters to work with. Carol again: Since you like my acronym but are struggling with it, I thought I'd give it a shot. How about Alas, Cissy Is Despondent. Perhaps Old Playmate Severus? "Old Flame Severus" would be better, but that would make it ACID POFS. Not perfect--it actually fits her going to Sevvie for help rather than inflaming old passions and entrapping him, but at least it has the right letters in the right places. Also, it seems like the perfect complement to (or antithesis of) LOLLIPOPS. (Sorry to pat myself on the back, but I've never done an acronym before and I'm fond of it.) BTW, although I absolutely agree with you that the Unbreakable Vow with its "I will's" and the couple kneeling in front of a "bonder" has a sinister resemblance to a wedding ceremony and that Snape is much more moved than he wants to be by a beautiful woman in tears pleading for his help and kissing his hand, I think it's his desire to be a hero, which we've seen before in SS/PS and PoA, that she's appealing to and which, along with the appeals to his vanity, persuades him to do what he can to help her. The Half-Blood Prince saving the damsel from distress by rescuing her idiot son (whom he's fond of and feels a duty toward anyway) would appeal to him for a number of reasons, including the desire for recognition and reward for his services that we've also seen so often. I don't mean a monetary reward or an adulterous relationship. Simple gratitude and praise would be sufficient. ("You were so brilliant, Severus! Oh, thank you, thank you! How can I ever repay you?") Regardless of whether Cissy planned it (I don't think she did--she didn't want Bella along) or was inspired by his words as he looked out the window and said that he suspected that the Dark Lord wanted him to do the deed (The idiot! what possessed him to say that?), he's bound by that vow in more ways than one. (I, of course, see it as the manifestation of the DADA curse, using his own traits or flaws against him to engineer his downfall. How ironic that the desire to be a hero could backfire so terribly!) Anyway, I'm glad you like ACID POPS. I'm not much of a SHIPper and have never done T-BAY (I'd drown, thank you), but I had fun with this one. Carol From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 25 17:17:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:17:13 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138727 > houyhnhnm: > > Would Neville's boggart have been Snape on a different day in a > different place? He's seen plenty of horrors at St. Mungo's whether he actually saw his parents being tortured or not (or remembers it). > If Snape had chosen another student to bully in front of Lupin, would Lupin have picked that student instead of Neville. Pippin: Boggarts can take different forms for the same person even on the same day and place, as Mrs. Weasley's did. Lupin may have his own reasons for not pointing this out to the class, but Neville seems to know it. He says that he doesn't want his boggart to turn into his grandmother either. Lupin shows signs of legilimency. There are numerous times when it looks as though he's reading someone's mind. He asks the class to visualize their boggart, and, IMO, he picks up on two of them that have imagined a real person (Harry did think of Voldemort first, though he forgot this) and arranges for them not to demonstrate their boggarts to the class. Why not Neville also? I would expect anybody who says things like "I must be grateful" to exhibit passive-aggressive tendencies, and IMO, the boggart lesson is a perfect example. I don't doubt Lupin felt some sympathy for Neville, but if that really mattered to him, why didn't he take further action when, as a result of the boggart lesson, Snape began bullying Neville worse than ever? The boggart-lesson is a wonderful teaching experience for the *reader*, and as Rowling is writing a novel, not a self-help book, it's more than sufficient, but what *Neville* needed was not a one-off demonstration. He needed patient, repetitive, one-on-one coaching. That's what he got from Harry in the DA. It's not what he got from Lupin. And if Lupin is such a brilliant teacher, and I believe he is, he knows that. No, I'm afraid it was mostly about Lupin's hidden resentment of Snape. I believe what JKR is showing us is what happens if a person remains an adolescent in terms of moral development. Many of her baddies are described as babies or babyish in some way. Lupin is not like that. He is not totally self-interested. But his altruism is bounded by his personal feelings and interests -- and he seems unable to see beyond them to any greater good. Pippin From Sherry at PebTech.net Thu Aug 25 16:37:15 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:37:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138728 Houyhnhnm102 wrote: > Why carry out this lesson in the staff room? Lupin didn't take Harry > to Filch's office for the patronus lessons. Why not remove the > boggart to a classroom? > Lupin tells his class that the boggart "moved in yesterday afternoon, and I asked the headmaster if the staff would leave it to give my third years some practice." (p. 133, US edition) By "leaving it," he means "leaving it in the wardrobe." (I think that driving boggarts out isn't an unusual or difficult spell for the professors, but one can't control where the boggart appears next.) Moving the entire wardrobe would be inconvenient, at best, for the faculty and staff. > Lupin marches his entire class into the staff room during what just > happens to be Snape's free period. Snape reacts churlishly because > his territory has been invaded (Students aren't allowed in the > teachers' lounge at my school under any circumstances). Lupin > retaliates by choosing Neville to demonstrate the riddikulus charm. > Teachers' lounges at my schools as a student and teacher were also normally off limits to students, but teachers were still expected to control themselves, not indulge in churlish behavior toward students. Harry thinks "it was bad enough that [Snape] bullied Neville in his own classes, let alone doing it in front of other teachers." Personally, I think both were equally bad. > If Snape had chosen another student to bully in front of Lupin, would > Lupin have picked that student instead of Neville. > Yes! Rather than pretending to ignore Neville and pass him over, Lupin leads him to a success, giving Neville a shot of confidence that he DOES have magical ability. He didn't know that this student would be more frightened by Snape than by anything else in the world, but fighting a boggart means confronting one's greatest fear. If Snape was Neville's greatest fear, that's the illusion he has to work with. > Lupin didn't have to turn Snape into an old woman. He could have > suggested something less humiliating. The lesson is a set-up from > the get-go, IMO. > I don't think Lupin had that planned--he didn't know what Neville would find amusing. Remember, he mentioned not just any old woman, but Neville's grandmother. Her son was one of his schoolmates, so he'd probably met her and knew how intimidating she could be. He may well have been thinking along the lines of a confrontation between a protective grandmother and the intimidating boggart. But when Neville was intimidated by even the mention of his grandmother, he got the idea of mixing the two to produce a comic image. > I know this scene has been argued over before. I guess what caused > me to think of it again is the fact that so many of the threads > lately have dealt with the nature of good and evil.... Evil having its genesis, not in superbads like > Valdemort and Grindelwald, but in the petty sins of commission and > omission carried out by "good" people. Dolores Umbridge in OotP is an example. Dumbledore points her out to Harry as a reminder that Voldemort is not the only source of malice in the world. > > Why [should Lupin] > not just make a decision to take the boy under his wing for the whole > term? Snape made a habit of ridiculing Neville very publically in front of fellow students, and in this case another teacher. Lupin's response was a public encouragement of Neville's power. Like you, I would avoid a public denegration of a fellow teacher, but Lupin couldn't choose Neville's greatest fear. He couldn't ask Neville to "Choose something else"--that would have made it impossible for him to work the spell. In general, I get the impression that JKR may base some elements of Hogwarts culture on 19th and early 20th century school practices, rather than contemporary ones. I've read, for example, that corporal punishment was common at that time. Filch's remarks in OotP give the impression that it was used at Hogwarts until recently (I wouldn't be surprised if it was first banned under Dumbledore's administration). Just my wandering thoughts... Amontillada From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 17:40:32 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:40:32 -0000 Subject: Snape did kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidenc In-Reply-To: <1e5.433bc816.303f4cb0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138729 juli17 at a... wrote: > I would respectfully ask that you > quit demeaning people I haven't demeaned anybody, but I do say that the idea Snape made an Unbreakable Vow because a pretty woman batted her eyelashes at him, or on a whim, or he didn't know what he was vowing to do, or that he just didn't think it through, is, well .. silly. There is just no other word for it. > let us all concede that we do not > KNOW what will happen, we can only guess Yes, I would concede that. > any guess is as valid as another That I will not concede. For example, If JKR wanted she could end the series with Harry being an 11 year old Muggle waking up in a closet under the Dursley's staircase and all 7 books turn out to be one big dream. If she did that it would contradict nothing but it would still be a poor prediction of what will happen in the next book. Having Snape be a good guy and Dumbledore alive and well is not quite as bad as that but almost. Eggplant From lolita_ns at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 14:22:54 2005 From: lolita_ns at yahoo.com (lolita_ns) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:22:54 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138730 > Zgirnius: > Oh, the most important reason some of us want the spell to be > anything but a successful AK is not plot-related, rather, it relates > to character development. Is Severus Snape a man who is capable of > forming the requisite intent to perform the AK, an Unforgiveable > Curse, successfully against Dumbledore, who is such a good man, and > to whom Snape owes so much? > And there could be a plot reason as well. If Snape is still on the > good side, how is the good side to ever realize this? JKR has many > options open to her: the grand self-sacrificing gesture by Snape > and/or unambiguous bottled memories of Dumbledore come to mind. But > another way could be for someone like Hermione (a logical thinker) to > learn of the possible oddities in the death scene and be inspired to > investigate further. And how exactly is character development unrelated to the plot? A little literary lecture: according to the Russian Formalism, Plot/ Story is the raw metarial used in any literary work (the story itself, characters - yes, characters as well -, themes, motifs etc.) Discourse/Recit is the plot artistically re-arranged in accordance with the storyteller's wishes. So, characters are part of plot. End of story. This digression aside, has not Snape demonstrated, over and over again, that he is capable of extreme hatred needed to cast AK (remember the confrontation with Black in the Shrieking Shack)? Boy, he even invented an innocent little spell like Sectumsempra when he was 16! I really don't understand what could possibly be gained by Snape's curse on Dumbledore not being AK. The grand-sacrificing Good! Snape's gesture you are talking about will, if it happens, probably be something along the lines of Darth Vader in The Return of The Jedi, which will most definitely kill him (maybe he'll throw himself in front of Harry to save him or something like that). The revealing of Snape as the good guy will have any literary value only if his innocence is proven after his demise. Everything else would be a betrayal of the genre's expectations. Someone also said that Dumbledore pulled a Pettigrew. Hello?! It's DUMBLEDORE we're talking about. Remember, the guy who believes that death is but the next great adventure? Why on Earth would he fake his own death? He has no angry friend he tricked to hide from. Does it really sound plausible to you that Dumbledore would leave Harry to face everything alone, that he would endanger the position of his trusted spy by making it seem that he killed him, that he would leave both Hogwarts and the Order on their own so that he could be a 'shadow leader'? No, it doesn't. And, again, in the highly unlikely event of Dumbledore's faked death, the literary conventions of the genre would be betrayed and the readers would - rightfully - feel tricked. Rowling isn't the world's greatest writer, she's actually very far from it, but I really don't think that she is that much ignorant of literary theory and history. The Still Alive!Dumbledore theory has the same reek as the Sirius-Is-Not-Really-Dead one. Lolita. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 17:46:50 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050825174650.15503.qmail@web53115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138731 vmonte wrote: I wonder if Lily knew that her death was inevitable and preplanned her sacrifice? Maybe she planned to protect Harry by splitting her soul in half so that she could remain inside Harry and protect him. (Didn't Dumbledore mention that he only knew of one wizard who actually split their soul in half? Maybe he meant Lily?) Maybe Lily performed the horcrux ritual in advance so that when Voldemort attempted to kill Harry she would sacrifice herself into Harry, while also causing Voldemort's destruction. Juli: Do you really think Lily would have commited murder? If she did (which I doubt), who do you think was her victim? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 17:54:12 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:54:12 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138732 >Vivian wrote: > I wonder if Lily knew that her death was inevitable and preplanned her sacrifice? Maybe she planned to protect Harry by splitting her soul in half so that she could remain inside > Harry and protect him. (Didn't Dumbledore mention that he only knew of one wizard who actually split their soul in half? Maybe he meant > Lily?) Maybe Lily performed the horcrux ritual in advance so that when Voldemort attempted to kill Harry she would sacrifice herself into Harry, while also causing Voldemort's destruction. > > I like this a lot. Voldemort was brought down by a mom who would do > anything to protect her son. Just like what Narcissa did to Snape. > The vow was his downfall too. Never underestimate a mother's love for their child! Carol responds: While I agree that Lily knew her death was inevitable and planned her self-sacrifice (as I've posted elsewhere, I think she put some sort of protective charm on him that could only be activated if she sacrificed her life to save his), the idea of Lily conducting a Horcrux ritual, which we've been told is the Darkest of Dark Magic and requires murder as a prerequisite just doesn't fit. I think what she did (Love magic?) is more like a Protego, which deflects a hex back on the caster, but strong enough, in combination with sacrificial love, to deflect an AK. Narcissa says she's desperate and will do anything to protect her son, but even if she stood in front of him to protect him from an AK, I don't think that would cause the next AK aimed at her son from killing him. But she's not thinking in terms of self-sacrifice. Instead, she resorts to persuading Snape to help her son even if it means *Snape's* life rather than her own. (Greater love hath no man than to give his life for a beautiful woman's arrogant and deluded son?) Anyway, Narcissa isn't into self-sacrifice, which didn't work out well for Mrs. Crouch, in any case. Something more is involved (and I do think there's a protective Charm we don't know about), but it can't be a Horcrux spell. Lily's love is pure and untainted and so is her soul. She hasn't committed murder (required to create a Horcrux) and doesn't have the evil will to cast an AK. Maybe it made a difference, too, that her son was an innocent toddler rather than a DE who had helped to Crucio the Longbottoms. As for splitting the soul, according to DD, that happens as the result of murder, not of creating the Horcrux, which (after a complex Dark Magic incantation) encases and protects the piece of soul split off by the act of murder. A mortal human Horcrux makes no sense, even from Voldemort's perspective, and certainly not for Lily, whose very name implies purity. She would not resort to a spell so evil that Dumbledore has removed (almost) all references to it from the Hogwarts library, nor would she commit murder (the necessary prerequisite) to protect her son. (Narcissa might commit murder, but even she wouldn't create a Horcrux, which would require a fragment of *Draco's* soul to make him immortal.) Also, DD says he's only known one other wizard who's created a Horcrux (surely Grindelwald), not one other wizard who's split his soul in half. The DEs do that every time they kill someone, and Snape (who "slithered out of action" so many times before) has split his, too--unless there's some way around it. (I don't think Snape wants immortality and is planning to make a Horcrux, though!) I have what seems like a stupid question, but I have to ask it. Does the soul somehow replenish itself (like the poisoned thought Pensieve) so that the soul fragments are equal, each (including the one inside himself) one/seventh of the whole and yet infinite? That being the case, LV could go on making Horcruxes for each murder till infinity. Or do the Horcruxes follow the law of diminishing returns? IOW, the first Horcrux took half his soul (which doesn't make perfect sense since he'd already committde four murders, counting Moaning Myrtle); the next took half of that (one/fourth), leaving him with the remaining fourth, which in itself was fragmented from the other murders. The third Horcrux would have been an eighth, leaving him with another eighth, and so on. The fragment of soul that burst out of him at GH must have been infinitesimal if that's the case. No wonder he's so far removed from humanity, setting aside the changes in his appearance that reflect the mutilation of his soul. So as I see it, murder splits the soul, but the split soul normally remains within the body. What the consequences are for an ordinary murderer who doesn't make Horcruxes is hard to guess, but those of creating Horcruxes are evidently far worse. DD speaks of the power of Harry's pure and untainted soul, which indicates the danger to him of committing murder or, I think, of deliberately casting any Dark curse. If he doesn't resist the temptation to cast Crucios and Sectumsempra and other Dark curses, he's going to taint his soul, and if he AKs Snape or LV, he will split it. His power, like Lily's, is the power of purity and Love, and he'd better learn that soon or it's all over. Carol, who doesn't believe in accidental Horcruxes, either From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 25 17:56:08 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:56:08 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony References: <1124963094.638.93707.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001a01c5a99e$47642700$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 138733 Gatta wrote: > Interesting sideline here: See Dr. Robert Hare on whether psychopaths > are born or made. (He maintains that the basic psychopathic > personality is inborn, but its manifestation is affected by nurture.) When I first read about the circumstances of Voldemort's upbringing, I had this kind of mental picture (I've read similar articles elsewhere) http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,933784,00.html The orphanage described in HBP doesn't sound _quite_ as bad as that, but if there had been any possibility of deflecting his psychopathy, it doesn't sound like the kind of environment to do it. hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Aug 25 18:04:50 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:04:50 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence...) In-Reply-To: <002501c5a96b$ddda1920$3762d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138734 CathyD now: [...] > It is interesting to note that Expelliarmus, which usually > simply disarms the other person, acted very strangely > when Snape used it on Lockhart in Duelling Club: "Both of > them swung their wands up and over their > shoulders. Snape cried: 'Expelliarmus!' There > was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart > was blasted off his feet: he flew backwards > off the stage, smashed into the wall and slid > down it to sprawl on the floor." (CoS pg 142 Can Ed) > Extra powerful Expelliarmus or an extra spell? Only > JKR knows for sure! ;-) houyhnhnm: Aren't there some other occasions in which a spell blasts someone off their feet? I have been wondering lately if the "three Ds" aren't important in all kinds of magic, not just apparition. In the case of a charm, the person or object being charmed would be the Destination. Determination would be the intent to produce a particular effect. Deliberation would be the mental efficiency with which the spell was cast. A spell cast with insufficient Determination would simply fail to produce its intended effect. One cast with insufficient Deliberation would produce the effect, but also produce an excess of unfocused energy, resulting in a blast. Could this be what happened on the tower? Snape lacked the Determination to kill Dumbledore, resulting in a failed AK. Being in a state of extreme emotional distress, he also lacked Deliberation, resulting in a blast. I still can't figure out the upwards part, though. How high were the battlements? How far down had Dumbledore slipped? It does seem that Snape's wand would have been pointing downwards. Maybe the wall wasn't very high (and Dumbledore was a *tall* man.) I think the fact that Dumbledore seemed to hang in mid- air and fall slowly was just the way Harry saw it, the way people experience extremely traumatic events as if they took place in slow motion. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 25 18:16:37 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:16:37 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138735 We know Neville is taking DADA -- Hermione manages to repel his muttered Jellylegs curse. But I can't recall any instances when Snape as DADA teacher bullies him. Am I misremembering, or does anybody have any ideas why Snape was leaving Neville alone? Pippin From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 18:24:34 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:24:34 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138736 lolita wrote: > And how exactly is character development unrelated to the plot? A > little literary lecture: zgirnius: You'll have to forgive my ignorance. My education is in Pure Mathematics, and I did all my (pretty extensive) Humanities electives in Philosphy, History, and Foreign Languages...I like to read books. Dissecting them always failed to appeal...(but then, most people I know say the same about Math, who would have thought it?! :-) ) lolita again: > This digression aside, has not Snape demonstrated, over and over > again, that he is capable of extreme hatred needed to cast AK > (remember the confrontation with Black in the Shrieking Shack)? zgirnius: We don't actually know what is required to cast a successful AK. We have certainly never seen Snape cast one. He planned to leave Sirius to the Dementors, actually, for whatever reason. (Though I would grant that in that scene, Dementors seeming a worse fate would make great sense as the reason!) However, in defense of Snape, at that point he believed that Sirius was a mass-murderer of Muggles and his old friend Peter, as well as the betrayer of the Potters (I suspect Lily was what he cared more about...) If he were able to hate Sirius enough to AK him at this point, it would be understandable. AKing Dumbledore is another matter. If Snape has not been duping him all these years, if Snape really was remorseful when he went to Dumbledore lo these many years ago, Snape ought to be profoundly grateful to Dumbledore. For believing him and giving him a position of trust, for the opportunity to work to undo the evil he feels he has done, and for helping to keep him out of Azkaban despite his prior affiliation with the Death Eaters. Now, it is possible the AK works kind of like a Patronus, where any sufficiently hateful thought can fuel the spell regardless of the target. If that is the case, then I agree, it matters not at all what spell Snape used. He could just remember how he felt in the SHack with Sirius and use that to kill DD. But to me this makes the AK less "Unforgivable" than, say, Crucio. We saw Harry really angry at Bellatrix in Book 5, he really wanted to hurt her, yet he was not able to make Crucio work properly. It was not enough to really hate her, he had to *enjoy* hurting her. I think many people who have had the wrong sorts of experiences in life can probably call up some pretty hate-filled moments. Lolita: > he even invented an innocent little spell like Sectumsempra when he > was 16! zgirnius: I think this is also not as straighforward as it seems as an indication of Snape's character. In the Pensieve scene of Book 5, Snape casts some nonverbal spell which causes a small cut to open on James' cheek. Is this Sectumsempra? If so, why so little damage? One explanation is that Snape was still perfecting the spell. Another, is that the spell can be used by a skilled caster in a controlled manner. One can see less than entirely Dark uses for such a spell. Harry's gutting of Draco could have been because Harry was not a skilled user of that spell, not because the spell *must* work that way. Further, even if Sectumsempra is as Dark as it seems in that chapter, it appears that Snape also developed the counter curse (whatever that singing over Draco was that he did.) We know Snape has always been into the Dark Arts. Apparently he has longed for the post of DADA Master. Thus, he could have developed Sectumsempra and its countercurse out of sheer love for the subject, on an intellectual level. I'm not saying this makes him a saint...just not a totally black villain. lolita: > The revealing > of Snape as the good guy will have any literary value only if his > innocence is proven after his demise. Everything else would be a > betrayal of the genre's expectations. zgirnius: I'm not sure I agree, my first response is, which genre? (I love how the books have grown to be a wild mix of fantasy, boarding school story, growing up story, spy thriller, mystery, and the kitchen sink...) However, I am willing to concede your point. Let us assume Snape goes out in a blaze of glory, and the Good Guys are left standing about saying Huh? Snape?! Again, what will be the *proof*? Someone will have to go back and discover the "true story" to tell us the readers about what was really up with Snape. And some of the discrepancies people are discussing may provide someone the clues which will lead to the discovery of the whole story, whatever it is. Or she could go the Pensieve Memory route, of course... Lolita: >The Still Alive!Dumbledore > theory has the same reek as the Sirius-Is-Not-Really-Dead one. zgirnius: Yup. Me too. He's dead, Jim. (Sorry, Trek reference, could not help myself). I really enjoy on this list how discussing ideas with people from different backgrounds can really help clarify my thoughts and teach me new things, thanks! From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Thu Aug 25 17:14:53 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:14:53 -0000 Subject: Draco and Descriptions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138737 Gatta wrote: >Speaking of SHIPpers, here's a story premise that I wouldn't touch >with a bargepole, but enthusiastic SHIPpers might: The hazards of >"bagging" a victim while coed members of the student body are looking >on--their reactions might be a wee tad different from yours... Or, did >Narcissa *have* to marry Lucius to disguise a little indisretion with >Severus in the Room of Requirement??? And what does that suggest to us >about the relationship between Snape and Draco??? This has to be one of the funniest, most entertaining and "far out" posts ever. I laughed for ages over this!!! However the Draco - Severus relationship hasn't got an ice cube's chance in hell. Havent we been told often enough that Draco's pale pointed face and pointed chin is exactly like his father's? Not to mention the sleek blond hair and slow drawling voice that makes them so similar. However I would like to take this opportunity to wonder about the physical descriptions of all of JKR's characters. I mean why are we constantly told about how Hermione has bushy hair and prominent front teeth? Why in 6 books have we never been told about the shape of her nose or the size of her ears? She does this with almost all of the characters in the books. Lupin is always described as being shabby with premature gray in his hair. Snape always has a hooked nose and greasy hair. Tonks' description is always related to the colour of her hair. All the Weasleys are always identified by their hair colour while Flitwick is just a tiny man with a squeaky voice. Bellatrix always has "heavy lidded eyes" (with a haughty look in them) Well, I could go on, but my point is, why doesnt she mention different physical characteristics about these people but keep repeating the same distinct features? My apologies if this is an old topic. I'm a newbie. If there is a JKR quote on this I'd be delighted to hear of it. Elyse From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 19:50:13 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:50:13 -0000 Subject: bad Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138738 Carol responds: > I agree with all of your arguments about Dumbledore being dead. I also > believe that Harry, still in shock, is telling the truth *as he > perceives it*. But a *jet* of green light ("jet" being the word used > when "Stupefy" and other neutral spells are cast) is not the same as > "a blinding flash of green light," the description that almost always > accompanies a description of an AK. > > Harry imposes this preconception (along with his hatred of Snape) onto > the moment in which he witnesses Snape speaking the words "Avada > Kedavra" and sending Dumbledore tumbling over the wall to his death. > Ignoring or forgetting about the Unbreakable Vow -- > Harry's preconceptions are reinforced for the reader by "Spinner's > End," that sneakiest of chapters, in which JKR places the reader in > the role of eavesdropper. Finwitch: Now, about that jet/flash, I'd say it's merely a matter of perspective. A light beam coming right at you would indeed look like a flash - whereas one seen from side, would be a jet. And as for Harry 'forgetting' about Unbreakable Vow - he didn't witness Snape taking one, now did he? It would be extremely clever if he suggested that, and cleverness is Hermione's specialty... She never says that, does she? As for the chapter Spinner's End - as well as the first, the Other Minister - are not told of Harry's perspective. Unlike with the first Chapter of GoF, Harry's not even dreaming either of them! Actually, in this Chapter, we witness evidence - Snape admitting it the way Harry wanted truth out of Draco in CoS - that Snape gave information leading to the death of Sirius Black. In the end of OOP, Dumbledore is of the belief that Kreacher had leaked information (about Harry&Sirius) to Narcissa Black Malfoy. Here we hear Snape tell Bellatrix Black Lestrange and NBM that he did it - and neither of these Black sisters questions it. They would of *known* if Snape had lied of this. Besides, if the info that led to the deaths of Emmeline Vance and Sirius Black wasn't what he told Voldemort, what was? He must have told him *something*, you know -- or he wouldn't be alive there... so that part wasn't a lie. Dumbledore was in error to think Kreacher did it... remember how Morfin was confessing to things he hadn't done, even himself believing he had, in one of those memories Dumbledore showed Harry? I'd guess Snape had covered his tracks by doing that trick to Kreacher... Finwitch From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 20:01:22 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:01:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as teacher/Dumbledore a fool? In-Reply-To: <1124841091.2169.23804.m33@yahoogroups.com> References: <1124841091.2169.23804.m33@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd050825130172a74eff@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138739 Lupinlore wrote: Actually, first of all it was 8 students with an O, two with an E. This is out of a class that JKR tells us included approximately 140 students, not 40. Since all the Hogwarts students had to take Potions in fifth year, that means, if we allow twice as many Es as Os and twice as many As as Es (which is a reasonable estimate, at least at the schools where I've taught), that 54 students, or only slightly more than a third, even passed the OWL. This I think pretty much definitively ends the discussion of whether Snape is a good teacher. He is a miserable, poor, absolute failure as a potions teacher, hands down, end of discussion. Lisa responds: The problem I have with this is that it paints Dumbledore a fool. If Snape has been teaching at Hogwarts for, what, 16 years now, and has been such a horrible teacher, why would Dumbledore have kept him around? Why would the Board stand for it? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 20:22:15 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:22:15 -0000 Subject: "Spinner's End," a canon-based interpretation (Wa: Snape did kill DD with AK!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138740 Eggplant wrote: > I haven't demeaned anybody, but I do say that the idea Snape made an > Unbreakable Vow because a pretty woman batted her eyelashes at him, or on a whim, or he didn't know what he was vowing to do, or that he just didn't think it through, is, well .. silly. There is just no other word for it. Carol responds: "Silly" is your own opinion, which you are of course entitled to, but it does not in any way disprove the theories you have listed because it is not the sort of opinion that can be supported by canon. It's more on the order of "licorice is delicious"--an opinion I happen to hold but which others heatedly dispute. Repeating "It's delicious" proves nothing to those who insist on disliking it even after actually tasting it. Nor does labeling an interpretation "silly" persuade those who believe otherwise based on their own reading of HBP. What we're trying to do is to get you to counter our theories about Snape with canon evidence rather than with labels. Does that make sense? Does it seem, I hope, like a reasonable request? If so, then let's look carefully at "Spinner's End" to see what the interpretations you have dismissed as "silly" are based on. To begin with, do you agree, based on what we know of him from all six books, that Snape is capable of deception? If yes, then isn't it possible that a number of his statements in "Spinner's End" are either false or not wholly true? If so, then the whole story that Snape tells Bellatrix may be a skilfully woven fabric of truths, half-truths, and lies. It is probably best not to take anything Snape says here at face value, especially given his implication in OoP that a really skilled Occlumens can deceive even Voldemort. (See CMC's post 138632.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138632 We need not, for example, take at face value Snape's statement that he didn't realize that Voldemort was inside Quirrell's head. What Bellatrix and the reader are told here is the story that Snape told Voldemort earlier, convincing enough that Snape remains alive, but we, having read SS/PS for ourselves, are not compelled to believe it or any of his other assertions without examining them closely. Given that deception is a necessary skill for a double agent and that Snape is an accomplished actor (as even Harry admits), he may be bluffing when he says that he knows what the Dark Lord wants Draco to do. *If* that's the case, and *if* he hasn't found out what the task is by using Legilimency on Narcissa (whose fears are for what LV will do to Draco rather than for what LV wants Draco to do), then Snape agrees to the Unbreakable Vow knowing only that the task is difficult and dangerous and that LV has promised to kill him if he fails. IOW, he has blindly stepped into a trap, a most un-Snapeish thing to do which again requires careful analysis if we wish to find a plausible explanation. Let's look at the canon, which most assuredly does not show Snape eagerly seizing the opportunity to kill Dumbledore or die in the attempt. What Narcissa asks Snape to do before she proposes the vow is to "look after him [Draco] and see he comes to no harm." Snape responds cautiously, "I can try." Narcissa then kisses his hand and flatters his ego: "If you are there to protect him--" and then, whether she previously planned it or is inspired by his apparent compassion and a second glass of wine, she asks him if he'll take the Unbreakable Vow. His blank expression indicates that he's hiding his feelings through Occlumency. Clearly he wasn't anticipating this turn of events. Bellatrix cackles triumphantly, making it clear that she expects "the usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action." Snape has evidently gotten away with not doing the dirty work and she expects him to "slither out" again (HPB Am. ed. 35). Why doesn't he? We don't know. A lot of us have speculated as to why the highly intelligent, logical Snape (a point I believe you concede) would agree to an Unbreakable Vow, knowing that the penalty for breaking it is death. If the first rule of being a Slytherin is self-preservation, why would he do something so stupid, so dangerous, even if he knows what the task is? And there's no evidence in the chapter other than his own words, which may be a bluff, that he does. (Certainly he doesn't know about the Vanishing Cabinet part or he wouldn't have tried to do Legilimency on Draco trying to find out what he's up to.) For whatever reason--and many of our posts are attempts to answer that question--Snape grants Narcissa's request, at the same time erasing Bellatrix's doubts by asking her to be the "bonder." Then, in words that *do* sound like a terrible parody of the wedding vows, with Snape and Narcissa on their knees and holding hands, again to empasize the "bond" between this man and this woman, Narcissa asks him to "watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes." No problem there. This is what he has already promised to do. Of course he says, "I will," and Bellatrix, ironically positioned in the role of priest or minister, binds their hands with snakes of fire. "And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?" Again, this is exactly what Snape has already promised to do, what he would have done in any case as the Head of Slytherin House watching out for his own students. And this part he fulfills when he saves Draco from the Sectumsempra curse and again from the Death Eaters. Again, of course, he says "I will," followed by a second bond of fire. But, as has been repeatedly pointed out, he does not anticipate the third provision, and his hand twitches as he hears, "And should it prove necessary, if it seems Draco will fail. . . ." (36). Clearly Snape senses danger at this point as he has not sensed it before. It's no longer the game he's used to playing, walking a tightrope of deception, depending on his wits and his skill at Occlumency to keep his cover with one or both sides, as he does throughout the first half of the chapter. He is no longer in control. Everything depends on Narcissa's words, which perhaps he expects will reveal Draco's task. Instead, Narcissa says, "Will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" (36) Snape hesitates. "There was a moment's silence." (36) There is no evidence other than his own words, which may or may not be true, that he knows the exact nature of the unnamed but clearly difficult and dangerous "deed." He knows no more than he did before, and he is presumably thinking things through, weighing his options. What will happen if he pulls out now, with the fanatical Bellatrix, whom he has just convinced of his loyalty, standing over him with her wand, and the desperate Narcissa, whom he has promised to help, kneeling beside him, her hand still in his? What will happen if he takes the vow, blindly agreeing to his own death if he fails to "carry out" the unnamed "deed"? Neither option is good, but which is worse? And then, for whatever reason, he makes what *we* know to be the wrong choice. He says, "I will," and a third tongue of flame shoots from Bellatrix's wand, "[binding] itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake." (37) The words are ominous, but surely it is Snape, not Dumbledore, whose doom they signal. This is a canon-based interpretation of the chapter based on careful multiple readings. I don't pretend that it's accurate in all respects, or that it answers every question, but it is not "silly." I would be glad to see your own canon-based refutation based on an equally careful examination of the evidence. Carol From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 21:06:15 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:06:15 -0000 Subject: Did Ollivander know about the Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > Carol: > > > Any thoughts about how much Ollivander might know and how it > > > ties in with his disappearance? > > > > > > Carol, > > > > bboyminn: > > > > Hoping this post isn't too short... > > > > For a great theory on Ollivander and the Horcrux wand, see this > > post - > > > > Subject: Missing Horcrux = Ravenclaw's > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136434 > > > > For an important and critical quote on this matter - > > > > "The last shop was narrow and shabby. Peeling gold letters over > > the door read Ollivanders: Makers of Fine Wnads since 382 B.C. > > **A single wand lay on a faded purple cushion in the dusty > > window**." [PS/SS Am Ed, PB, Pg 102] > > > Valky: > I checked that Link Steve, but I think you might maybe have put the > wrong message in the link. > bboyminn: Actually, the connection between Ollivander, Ravenclaw, and the wand on the pillow comes out later in that thread. I though it was best to start at the top of the thread and let people follow it through. > Valky continues: > I was skimming through PS/SS just today gathering little tidbits > with fresh eyes, and I noticed the quote that you've put above and > remembered your post. ... > > The three largest clues I think here are: > > -The traces of magic in the store. > > -Ollivander looking very closely at Harry's scar and saying "So > that's where -" ... > > -Harry not feeling right about Mr Ollivander. > > -The wand sitting on a cushion in a dusty window. ... > > I think that these things might add up to a very evil Mr Ollivander. > bboyminn: Maybe it's just a reflection of my own prejudice, but I don't think Mr. Ollivander is evil; creepy - maybe, but evil - no. Of course, I have no way of establishing that; it's just my feeling. > ...edited... > > > Steve: > > Someone really needs to check and see if that purple cushion wand > > is still there. > > > Valky concludes: > Arthur tells us the "shop" is empty, no sign of a struggle, ..., and > there's no mention of the display window specifically. I am curious > as to whether it's still there, but I don't think we'll be finding > out til book seven. bboyminn: Although others seem to disagree, I didn't take 'the shop is empty' to mean completely barren. I took it to mean that no one could be found anywhere, but I assumed that Ollivander left his shop and inventory intact, which is why it didn't look like there was a struggle. The lack of struggle, to me, implies that the shop was completely normal except for the fact there wasn't a soul around. On the overal subject of whether Ollivander knew about the Horcruxes, I don't think he did. It's true he did have some information that wasn't common knowledge like the connection between Voldemort and Tom Riddle, but we know that Dumbledore is scant with information. He doesn't tell anybody anything they don't need to know and that doesn't serve Dumbledore. The Prophecy is probably a better example as to how Dumbledore releases information in a very controlled manner. I suspect many people, like certain people at the Ministry, know about the Prophecy, some may have even had a general explanation of what it said, but I think the number who know it word-for-word is very rare. Now applying that to the Horcruxes, it seems that very few in the wizard world even know what they are. The information is banned at Hogwarts by Dumbledore. So this doesn't seem to be information that Dumbledore is throwing about over tea. Certainly he would keep the knowledge of the Horcrux in general and of their application by Voldemort a closely guarded secret. I really don't see any reason for Ollivander to know. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 21:59:31 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:59:31 -0000 Subject: Whom does Snape REALLY love? (ACID POPS?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138742 > Carol again: > Since you like my acronym but are struggling with it, I thought I'd > give it a shot. How about Alas, Cissy Is Despondent. Perhaps Old > Playmate Severus? Neri: How about Alas, Cissy Is Despondent, Perhaps Obsessively Passionate Severus? I mean, if the LOLLIPOPS crew got Love in *their* acronym, then there's no chance in the world we S/N SHIPpers would ever settle for less than Passion, and preferably Obsessive Passion. After all, *we* have considerably more canon to back up such claims than they ever did. When did Snape ever kneel in front of Lily and clasped hands with her, eh? When did that pathetic redhead ever get to kiss the hand of our Severus?? When did our Prince ever look deep into the tearful green eyes of that cheeky wannabe??? In fact, forget about this ridicules LOLLIPOPS at all. I could argue that in this single chapter the S/N SHIPpers got more canon than the H/H SHIPpers had managed to accumulate in five books. Yep, Passion at the *very* minimum. Neri From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 22:03:04 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:03:04 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > We know Neville is taking DADA -- Hermione manages to repel his > muttered Jellylegs curse. But I can't recall any instances when > Snape as DADA teacher bullies him. Am I misremembering, or does > anybody have any ideas why Snape was leaving Neville alone? Finwitch: Oh, I know why: Mainly that Snape doesn't wish Dumbledore to know beyond doubt that he bullies a student. Now that Harry's having private Lessons with Dumbledore and Slughorn is having his Club (where Neville, Harry and Hermione are all invited to) some adult would definately know and do something about it. In addition, you never know what Neville's emotions running high could do -- an *accident* in his class, probably even one that has Snape knocked out unconcious? Anyone would let Neville off and call it accident (Neville has the *accidental* reputation) - whereas... well, Snape is beaten by a student AND chastised for bullying? Finwitch From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 22:13:46 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:13:46 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > We know Neville is taking DADA -- Hermione manages to repel his > muttered Jellylegs curse. But I can't recall any instances when > Snape as DADA teacher bullies him. Am I misremembering, or does > anybody have any ideas why Snape was leaving Neville alone? > > Pippin Juli: It could also be that we didn't really see a lot of DADA classes, I only remember that one (about the non verbal spells and "you don't have to call me 'sir', sir"), so he could have continued his usual treatment or not. Juli From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 25 22:58:02 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:58:02 -0000 Subject: FILK: Pokey, Hokey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138745 Pokey, Hokey To the tune of The Hokey Pokey You take a job with Burkes A new career as clerk You do some sleazy work As you're skulking all about Send Hokey to the pokey For she'll turn herself in, 'cause Tom Riddle has all the clout You make a date with Smith To do some business with She owns the stuff of myth And displays it all about Send Hokey to the pokey For she'll turn herself in if Tom Riddle has all the clout Here is a cup you'll love Of Helga Hufflepuff "I won't part with this stuff I'll just keep it hereabouts" Send Hokey to the pokey For she'll turn herself in as Tom Riddle wins all the clout Here's the Marvolo ring It's suited for a king It is a precious thing That you cannot do without Send Hokey to the pokey She will turn herself in for Tom Riddle has all the clout That ring belonged to Mom Before she split with Tom And you have got no qualm To detach it from this lout Send Hokey to the pokey For she'll turn herself in once Tom Riddle has all the clout When Hepzibah is dead After Tom Riddle fled We'll blame the elf instead As we take the prison route Send Hokey to the pokey For she'll turn herself in to Give Riddle all of the clout Go to the pokey, Hokey Go to the pokey, Hokey Go to the pokey, Hokey Tom Riddle wants all the clout - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Aug 25 23:01:08 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:01:08 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > We know Neville is taking DADA -- Hermione manages to repel his > > muttered Jellylegs curse. But I can't recall any instances when > > Snape as DADA teacher bullies him. Am I misremembering, or does > > anybody have any ideas why Snape was leaving Neville alone? > > > > Pippin > > Juli: It could also be that we didn't really see a lot of DADA > classes, I only remember that one (about the non verbal spells > and "you don't have to call me 'sir', sir"), so he could have > continued his usual treatment or not. > It's also possible that Neville, thanks to his DA training - and having his very own wand - has become somewhat more adept at DADA, and didn't given Snape as much latitude for emotional abuse (not that Snape would ever need an excuse). - CMC From lolita_ns at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 19:52:19 2005 From: lolita_ns at yahoo.com (lolita_ns) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:52:19 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138747 > zgirnius: > He planned to leave Sirius > to the Dementors, actually, for whatever reason. (Though I would > grant that in that scene, Dementors seeming a worse fate would make > great sense as the reason!) > As far as I remember, Snape first pointed his wand at Sirius and said something along the lines of 'Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will', after which event Sirius backed down. Now, don't misunderstand me, Snape is my absolutely favourite character, and I don't think that he is The Arch-Villain of the story, and I am not trying to give a list of reasons for his being bad. I'm just following the reasoning that he did kill DD, and that he did do it by AKing him. And as far as THAT is concerned, there is definitely more than meets the eye in that scene, and we have probably been force-fed a nice, big portion of red herring. As for SS's planning on leaving Sirius to the dementors, the most probable reason is that he didn't want to risk a stint in Azkaban at the time (however unlikely the possibility that if he had AKed an escaped criminal he would have been convicted). After all, Snape's ultimate concern seems to be Snape's own arse. And I absolutely degree that a Kiss would be far worse a fate than a quick AK. zgirnius: > AKing Dumbledore is another > matter. If Snape has not been duping him all these years, if Snape > really was remorseful when he went to Dumbledore lo these many years > ago, Snape ought to be profoundly grateful to Dumbledore. For > believing him and giving him a position of trust, for the opportunity > to work to undo the evil he feels he has done, and for helping to > keep him out of Azkaban despite his prior affiliation with the Death > Eaters. Far enough. Under the condition that Snape was the one who approached DD, and that he did feel remorse (It seems more likely to me now that it was DD who asked Snape for a little chat concerning his future). But we do not know for sure what the agreement between the two of them was, so we cannot tell with certainty that Snape was a repentant ex-DE who went to DD and put himself at his mercy. In all our attempts to postulate a theory of Seeking Redemtion!Snape, we seem to have forgotten that he was a Death Eater. He most definitely was enough of a bigot and a bully to join Voldemort's little club in the first place. Whether he still feels that way is going to be revealed in Harry Potter and the Final Showdown :) > > zgirnius: > In the Pensieve scene of Book 5, > Snape casts some nonverbal spell which causes a small cut to open on > James' cheek. Is this Sectumsempra? If so, why so little damage? One > explanation is that Snape was still perfecting the spell. Another, is > that the spell can be used by a skilled caster in a controlled > manner. One can see less than entirely Dark uses for such a spell. > Harry's gutting of Draco could have been because Harry was not a > skilled user of that spell, not because the spell *must* work that > way. > > Further, even if Sectumsempra is as Dark as it seems in that chapter, > it appears that Snape also developed the counter curse (whatever that > singing over Draco was that he did.) We know Snape has always been > into the Dark Arts. Apparently he has longed for the post of DADA > Master. Thus, he could have developed Sectumsempra and its > countercurse out of sheer love for the subject, on an intellectual > level. I'm not saying this makes him a saint...just not a totally > black villain. > Again, Snape is my favourite character. I do not see him as a totally black villain either. Do I sound like I do? I am not speaking about his psychological profile, but his actions. And I don't think that he invented Sectumsempra out of sheer love for the subject, for he wrote sth like 'For your enemies' next to it. He most definitely intended to use it. And we saw in the Pensieve scene his own Levicorpus used against him, so maybe he invented the countercurse because he was afraid (and with reason) that James & Co may decide to force-feed him another dose of his own medicine, this time Sectumsempra. However, I am inclined to think that Potions was his primary passion (I can teach you to bottle fame yadda yadda..), and that the reasons for his wanting the DADA position are probably linked to some Voldemort's bright idea. In order to keep his arse covered for those many years (LV was gone, but DEs weren't, and I doubt that SS would be so chummy with Lucius Malfoy if he didn't act as a DE on loose), he re-applied for the position over and over again, probably quite aware that he wouldn't get it. And it seems to me that JK hasn't given us any explanation of what the Dark Arts actually are. The explanations are different from one book to another. Either she is going to thoroughly explain everything in Book 7, or she is far less skillful a writer than I first thought she was. I am reluctant to admit that I fear the latter might be closer to truth. > > zgirnius: > I'm not sure I agree, my first response is, which genre? (I love how > the books have grown to be a wild mix of fantasy, boarding school > story, growing up story, spy thriller, mystery, and the kitchen > sink...) Yes, there is quite a lot of genres mixed in HP - JK's tribute to Postmodernism, I would say - but the underlying genre is Bildungsroman (dealing mostly with the development of the hero - maybe the best example is Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man) that uses a lot of conventions from classic genre of Quest (think Siegfried, or, if you feel like poetry, T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land). The basic sketch is that the hero has to grow up, lose everybody he cared for along the way (most prominently, his mentor who teaches him everything he knows and then dies, so that the hero may step in and take over) embraces his fate and confronts his enemy in a final one-on-one showdown (Star Wars, anyone?) Cheers :)) Lolita From redeyedwings at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 20:19:26 2005 From: redeyedwings at yahoo.com (redeyedwings) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:19:26 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DD27@mimas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138748 James Sharman wrote: > My theory depends on one simple thing, the spell used to create a Horcrux. > We know that killing creates an injury to the soul. And this can be used by > a dark wizard to create a Horcrux (Remember that Slughorn specifically said > that this involves a spell). If as I suspect the spell must be performed > alongside the killing curse then it creates a very interesting possibility. > Redeyedwings now: I like your idea - but the above assumption (snipped from the rest of a very interesting post) is flawed: The spell does not have to be performed at the same time as the killing curse. As we've seen, Tom has already killed his grandparents and father before he ever talks to Slughorn about horcruxes (he has the ring on his finger in the memory), so clearly a horcrux can be made at some point after the death. As well, we see him kill Frank Bryce, but we certainly don't see any other spells being cast (or objects being utilized) as he does this. If it required the spell to be performed at the same time, wouldn't he at least had to have made Nagini hold still or 'come here' or something to prepare for the fragment of soul she was about to receive. This is also, btw, the reason that I don't believe Harry is a Horcrux. The canon seems to indicate that the spell is dark and complicated (Slughorn doesn't know it, but says it is powerful dark magic) and that it can be done at any point after the murders. Therefore, LV would seemingly have to know and want to cast the spell. And if he did that, he likely wouldn't keep trying to kill Harry. JMO, but backed up by a *little* bit of canon. REW From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 23:16:31 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:16:31 -0000 Subject: Obsession Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138749 After thinking about HBP as a whole, how it fits into the series, I realized one of the major themes is obsession. Most notably we find out Lord Voldemort was born as a result of obsessive love, both the psychological obsession Merope feels for Tom Riddle Sr. and the use of a love potion. Slughorn tells us, significantly, a love potion "doesn't really create *love* of course. It is impossible to manufacture or imitate love. No, this will simply cause a powerful infatuation or obsession. It is probably the most dangerous and powerful potion in this room--oh yes...When you have seen as much of life as I have, you will not underestimate the power of obsessive love...." (chap. 9, p. 186, US) Merope's obsessive love killed her in the end, when she either refused to 'lift her wand' to save herself or became totally unable to do so from debilitating depression. Her death left Tom Riddle alone to sort out his family history and learn about his magical heritage without guidance. One thing he came to believe fairly young was that magical abilty equals almost infinite power, including the power to defeat death. Thus his life-long obsession was born. OK, so I don't have to go through every event, and there are many of them, but the most significant ones are: ***Harry's obsession with Draco, as well as his somewhat minor obsession with the Half-Blood Prince. Both of these things distract him from his important work with Dumbledore, and in the case of the Prince teachings, Harry increases his ability to be deceptive and feels drawn to use dark magic spells. At the same time, as he learns more about Voldemort's history and the enormous task ahead, his doubt about his own abilities increases and he fails to see how his power to love will be the key to defeating Voldemort. ***Dumbledore's obsession with finding the Horcruxes. Digging around in the obsession theme, I had to start wondering about Dumbledore leaving the school for long periods of time to hunt Horcruxes alone, coming in contact with all sorts of dark magic and then depending on the reactive strategy of Snape 'saving' him before major damage was done. It's completely noble, just like Harry going to save Sirius in the DOM was completely noble, but....well, you wonder if he thought that one through completely. Did he became so intent on finding and destroying Horcruxes he lost his focus in other areas? The night of the cave, when Harry comes to him with information about Draco and Snape, Dumbledore dismisses it. Now my personal take on this scene was: 1) Harry mentioned Snape in conjunction with what Draco was doing in the Room of Requirement, and since Dumbledore felt certain Snape was actually watching *over* Draco and not participating with him, he waved away the entire accusation as nothing important. 2) Dumbledore was completely fixated on getting to the cave. I really believe his tunnel vision about the cave contributed to him deciding against telling Harry, finally, why he trusted Severus Snape. The time was right, Harry knew the truth of Snape being the eavesdropper, he *deserved* an explanation since he lost both his parents partially due to Snape's information. But Dumbledore hesitated, probably deciding the Horcruxes were more important (an old man's mistake again?) and the moment was gone. Unfortunately, both miscalculations led to the DE's entering Hogwarts & forcing the issue of the Unbreakable Vow, probably earlier than Dumbledore and Snape expected to deal with it. Harry was left out in the cold as to Snape's motives (I think) and saw the only thing he *could* see, an evil Snape finally choosing to side with Voldemort. ***Snape. You knew I had to get to him eventually. Reading Carol's excellent analysis of Spinner's End made me wonder: What exactly was Snape's obsession that led to his downfall? I like the idea of obsessive love, Snape's for Narcissa, but don't know if that will play out. Carol has suggested his intense need for recognition & the DADA curse might be behind taking the Unbreakable, and others have mentioned Snape is eyeing Voldemort's day job when he took that final vow. Me? Not sure. That's why I'm writing this post ;). I feel certain obsession brought Snape down, but I wonder where it was rooted. In his family dynamics and early life, like Riddle? His life at Hogwarts as a half-blood sorted into Slytherin? His interest in Dark magic & choice to be a DE? By taking the Unbreakable, and whether he knew what he was agreeing to or not he still knew it wasn't a Good Thing, his action said he was willing to risk everything to take that vow: His relationship with Dumbledore, the DADA job he craved, his ability to continue as a spy, his own life if he failed. I just wonder if we have the whole story. You know, I just realized something--we didn't get our Dumbledore explanation at the end of HBP. Wah. He was supposed to explain the origin of the HBP and whether Eileen Prince and Tobias Snape are important and what failing led Snape to take the Unbreakable Vow. Could this mean someone else will come along in Book 7 to help us understand all these pieces? It would complete the circle I think, to finally get a glimpse into his life from someone who knew him well. Jen, laughing out loud at Neri's latest post on the S/N ship http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138742 From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 23:17:12 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:17:12 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138750 Pippin wrote: > > > We know Neville is taking DADA -- Hermione manages to repel his > > > muttered Jellylegs curse. But I can't recall any instances when > > > Snape as DADA teacher bullies him. Am I misremembering, or does > > > anybody have any ideas why Snape was leaving Neville alone? > > > Juli: It could also be that we didn't really see a lot of DADA > > classes, I only remember that one (about the non verbal spells > > and "you don't have to call me 'sir', sir"), so he could have > > continued his usual treatment or not. > > > > CMC: > It's also possible that Neville, thanks to his DA training - and > having his very own wand - has become somewhat more adept at DADA, > and didn't given Snape as much latitude for emotional abuse (not that > Snape would ever need an excuse). > > - Valky now: Juli and CMC, I think have good ideas but I have one other to add. I actually think its /obvious/ Snape has realised Neville is of no interest to him, he's ignoring him along with the rest of the class. I never used to like the theory that Snape was only bullying the boys to jolt this special magic out of them. Pippin you were on that boat once I think, yes? But now since HBP, I am revising my attitude to that. So why isn't Snape bullying Neville? Because he's found the boy with the power to defeat the Dark Lord and he's studying him. Nothing else matters. *shrugs* even if you don't like it, theres plenty of canon supporting it. Valky From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 23:36:58 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:36:58 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: <20050825174650.15503.qmail@web53115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138751 vmonte wrote: I wonder if Lily knew that her death was inevitable and preplanned her sacrifice? Maybe she planned to protect Harry by splitting her soul in half so that she could remain inside Harry and protect him. (Didn't Dumbledore mention that he only knew of one wizard who actually split their soul in half? Maybe he meant Lily?) Maybe Lily performed the horcrux ritual in advance so that when Voldemort attempted to kill Harry she would sacrifice herself into Harry, while also causing Voldemort's destruction. Juli: Do you really think Lily would have commited murder? If she did (which I doubt), who do you think was her victim? vmonte: Maybe Lily did something that was never done before. Maybe she created a horcrux from her own sacrifice--her own death! It would be kind of cool if Lily foiled Voldemort using his own methods--but with a twist. Voldemort is pretty stupid. During GoF he performed a ritual in which he passed Lily's protection into himself. Maybe he took in a piece of her soul. Vivian From pipes814 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 16:28:16 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:28:16 -0000 Subject: Patronus In-Reply-To: <20050825125318.6627.qmail@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138753 Cat, in parts: > what thought could Snape have that would allow him to make > a patronius. Maybe he thinks of some rare moment he once shared with his Mom. > Since it's white as opposed to dark magic, I don't think the > thoughts of gleefully torturing students, muggles etc would do > it. Do DE's have patronius; That does make me think. Perhaps the fact that he has a patronus indicates that he's not 100% evil. Jamie From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 01:03:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:03:10 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138754 Malice and Ulterior Motives In my opinion Severus Snape is a bad man. Many say that now he is not bad, but is a double agent. The interesting thing about double agents is that you never really know whose side they are truly on; or even more importantly if they are on any one side at all, preferring to use what they can from both sides until ultimately both sides cancel each other out leaving the double-double-crosser as the true victor. Throughout the novel Snape is repeatedly described as having bat-like and spider-like qualities. Bats are bloodsuckers, and arachnids spin webs to entrap their prey, once caught they are sucked dry of their innards until only a husk remains. These are the perfect descriptions for a man who has laid out webs of deceit all around him and uses those that he ensnares to achieve his goals. Snape can easily lie to the entire Order of the Phoenix. He only had to fool one member. With Dumbledore backing him, the other members blindly accepted Snape and everything he did without question, wrongfully assuming that their all-knowing leader knew best. I think that this is why J. K. Rowling makes a point for Dumbledore to inform Harry that he makes mistakes. To banish the notion that he is somehow more than just a man. Fooling Dumbledore could have been as easy as tugging on his heartstrings ? The Dark Lord, however, is another matter. "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." (Order of the Phoenix; Occlumency, p531) During this conversation with Harry, it seems obvious that Snape is talking about himself. Never one to pass up an opportunity to "toot his own horn" Snape implies that he has the power to lie to the face of the Dark Lord. This also applies to Dumbledore; if Snape can utter falsehoods to Voldemort you could also argue that he can lie to Dumbledore. Intricate webs wonderfully weaved though they might have a tendency of coming unraveled. I think it no mistake that Snape lives at Spinner's End. The imagery speaks for itself. However, titling the Chapter "Spinner's End" evokes a dual meaning: The end of the Spinner ? The end of the web. It is in this chapter that Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa. "And, should it prove necessary if it seems Draco will fail " whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the dead that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" There was a moment's silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide. "I will," said Snape. (Half Blood Prince, Spinner's End, p36-37) It is at this point that Snape has been forced off his fence, where he has been happy to sit and watch the world move around him. Snape's hand twitches and he pauses. His hesitancy shows he understands that he may regret this decision. But he was backed into a corner. Showing his intentions to be anything other than for the Dark Lord and the protection of his own, especially in front of Bellatrix would certainly have meant his death. I think Phineas Nigellus puts it best in Order of the Phoenix; "We Slytherin's are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks (p494-495)." This notion fits Snape to a "T" in two moments, the reason he makes the promise in the first place, and then when he finally has to kill Dumbledore. Throughout the novel J. K. Rowling makes certain to let you know that Snape has no idea what Draco's task is. I am certain that he did not expect the murder of Dumbledore to be a task that the Dark Lord would have given a child. When it becomes clear that Draco is too much of a child still to make up his mind to commit murder, Snape would rather kill than die himself. It could seem that there is a possibility that Snape was still working with Dumbledore and his death was planned. However, when we hear Slughorn's description of how one makes a horcrux it seems clear that this cannot be. By an act of evil ? the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion (Half Blood Prince, Horcruxes, p498) To intentionally kill someone causes so much damage to your soul that it tears apart. It would not be in Dumbledore's character to ask this of Snape. Dumbledore's been trying to keep Snape away from the Defense Against the Dark Arts position for years because of his fear that it would tempt Snape back to the dark side. It doesn't seem very likely that Dumbledore would risk Snape's mortal soul. He trusted and protected a man who kills him in cold blood. "Severus " The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus please " Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore (Half Blood Prince, The Lightning Struck Tower, p595-596) The sound of his hero and protector pleading is even more frightening to Harry than facing an army of bewitched corpse-puppets. None of this moves Snape in the slightest. No longer able to ride the fence, Snape makes the ultimate decision to ally himself with the seemingly stronger faction. A faction not led by wounded old men. He goes on to toy with and torment Harry as he runs for freedom. Mocking Harry's father as he deflects spell after spell. He shows that even after killing a weak and beaten Dumbledore that he can be as cruel as ever. If this were true then why would he save Harry's life over the course of all the books (i.e. while being jinxed by Quirrell), or more recently during his flee from the school? Was it because he is so loyal to the Dark Lord that he would ensure the boy's survival just so Voldemort could kill him? Or is it because of something more? We know that Harry is a powerful wizard untrained though he might be. There is also no doubt that many in the book see this as something he was born with. This may be true, however, what if his strength came from the events that happened at Godric's Hollow? We know that Harry did not die because his mother sacrificed herself to protect him ? a protection that lives in his blood and his skin still. We also know that Harry has some of the Dark Lord in him, something that was transferred into him when Voldemort's death curse backfired. Voldemort had just committed the act of murder when he attempted to kill Harry. This means that a part of his soul was torn, as Slughorn described. What if because of Lily's sacrifice this torn portion of Voldemort's soul was transferred into Harry? This would make Harry a Horcrux. We know after this last book that a Horcrux does not have to be confined to an object. "The Snake?" said Harry, startled. "You can use animals as Horcruxes?" "Well, it is inadvisable to do so," said Dumbledore, "because to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business (p506)." If it is inadvisable could this mean that the soul piece inside a living being can influence its container and be influenced? Couldn't the explanation of why Harry has some of Voldemort's abilities and strengths be because he is being influenced by the soul-shard that is inside him, just like the soul-shard of Tom Riddle in the diary influenced Ginny. The only thing that protects Harry from being consumed is the love and protection that runs in his veins. I believe that Snape sees that this is true, and quite possibly has always suspected that a part of the Dark Lord resides behind Harry's scar. In The Chamber of Secrets Snape tests his theory. He whispers the Serpensortia spell to Draco. When Harry responds to the snake in Parseltongue Snape has the proof. He looks "at Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it (The Dueling Club, p193- 194). It seems clear that Snape has a plan for the power inside Harry, and knows and understands more about Harry's gifts than he is willing to let on to anyone. Up to this point Snape's motivations have been fueled by a want to be powerful, respected and feared. The way he treats the children of the school are a clear example. J. K. Rowling has said in an interview that Snape in a way is even more culpable for his actions than Voldemort because Snape was loved. She has also eluded in an interview that Snape may redeem himself in book 7. How can a man who is both culpable and possibly redeemable be innocent? Up to this point he is an evil manipulative horrid man who preys on innocent children and weaves a web of deceit and death where ever he goes. Harry Potter is a Horcrux and Snape is evil. -Vivian Edited by Vanessa http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099- connectiontransc.html From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 26 01:17:09 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:17:09 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Malice and Ulterior Motives > > > Throughout the novel Snape is repeatedly described as having > bat-like and spider-like qualities. Bats are bloodsuckers, and > arachnids spin webs to entrap their prey, once caught they are sucked > dry of their innards until only a husk remains. These are the > perfect descriptions for a man who has laid out webs of deceit all > around him and uses those that he ensnares to achieve his goals. > cough,cough. I have to now stand up & defend bats & spiders...LOL Bats are NOT bloodsuckers - only the vampire bat is. Most bats are insect eating creatures and they help cut down on the *bad* insects, such as flies & mosquitoes. Spiders are also in the same vein as bats - they catch their prey(insects) and help cut down on the increasing population of said insects. Matter of fact, there is folklore that states it is bad luck to kill a spider. I never kill a spider in my home - I just gently pick it up with paper and put it outside where it belongs. Yes, those descriptions are used to describe Snape - but if you look at it away from the incorrect misconceptions of bats & spiders, well, you could say he isn't evil, but helping out by ridding the WW of insects (DE's). colebiancardi (who thinks that bats are very cute & will not kill a spider) From mrsewp at bestweb.net Fri Aug 26 01:18:24 2005 From: mrsewp at bestweb.net (Elizabeth Catherine) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:18:24 -0000 Subject: A new Horcrux theory. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138756 first half of this post was snipped: > vmonte wrote: Maybe Lily did something that was never done before. Maybe she created a horcrux from her own sacrifice--her own death! It would be kind of cool if Lily foiled Voldemort using his own methods--but with a twist. Voldemort is pretty stupid. During GoF he performed a ritual in which he passed Lily's protection into himself. Maybe he took in a piece of her soul. Vivian to which I reply and add a few... Interesting ideas but these get me confused: Did I miss the part of the conversation where humans can be horcruxes? I thought at first that Harry became an unwitting horcrucx when Lord Thingy tried to kill him and it backfired. But then again, did it backfire? For if your theory is correct and humans can be horcruxes for another, wouldn't the killing of Lily create the Horcrux!Harry? Or was Lily meant to be the Horcrux from James's death... "Stand aside you silly girl" (bad recollection of V's statement in Harry's memory). If Harry is the Horcrux then that would support those who believe the series will/ must end with the deaths of both V and our Harry. If Harry has to destroy all the horcruxes and Voldemort, then he has to die in the battle. Is this little bit of V the part that intrigued the sorting hat, that led Harry to the sister wand, that makes him a parselmouth, that will doom him to sacrifice in Book 7? Another pet Horcrux theory: The Half- Blood Prince's Advanced Spell book is a horcrux. Why does Snape leave this important book behind in the potions classroom closet? Wouldn't he want to keep such a personal collection of nastiness and hard work/ clever spells? Why is it left to be handed out or taken? If it is a Horcrux, does Snape know? Is that why he wants it back (ESE!Snape)? Or, does he somehow want Harry to end up with it for various, as yet unknown reasons (ESG!Snape)? Interested in all your thoughts, Liz From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 26 01:48:09 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:48:09 -0000 Subject: Did Ollivander know about the Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138757 > > Valky: > > I checked that Link Steve, but I think you might maybe have put > > the wrong message in the link. > > > > bboyminn: > > Actually, the connection between Ollivander, Ravenclaw, and the wand > on the pillow comes out later in that thread. I though it was best > to start at the top of the thread and let people follow it through. > Valky now: Okay then, so I am the first to say that this theory is brilliant because Harry senses *secret magic* in Ollivanders from the moment he sets foot in the shop, am I? Woohoo for me! Harry gets shivers up his spine when he walks into Ollivanders, and at the end of HBP in the cave Harry wonders if the shivers he is experiencing at that moment are because he's cold or because of the magic that Dumbledore is sensing. O_o Does anyone else think that smells rather suspicious.. What a place to hide a Horcrux.. In plain view of everyone.. Sounds like Jo's style anyway. > > Valky continues: > > I was skimming through PS/SS just today gathering little tidbits > > with fresh eyes, and I noticed the quote that you've put above and > > remembered your post. ... > > > > The three largest clues I think here are: > > > > -The traces of magic in the store. > > > > -Ollivander looking very closely at Harry's scar and saying "So > > that's where -" ... > > > > -Harry not feeling right about Mr Ollivander. > > > > -The wand sitting on a cushion in a dusty window. ... > > > > I think that these things might add up to a very evil Mr > > Ollivander. > > bboyminn: > > Maybe it's just a reflection of my own prejudice, but I don't think > Mr. Ollivander is evil; creepy - maybe, but evil - no. Of course, I > have no way of establishing that; it's just my feeling. Valky: Fair enough, Ollivander doesn't have to be evil. I was wondering though, if Ollivander does have a Horcrux in his shopfront, and he knows about it, then what was he about to say to Harry when he was pointing at Harry's scar? If Ollivander doesn't know about it. Say, if he was under Imperius in the first VW an had his memory wiped of it, then I suppose he wasn't about to say anything interesting to Harry that day Harry bought his wand. But I am finding it hard to believe that what Ollie was thinking right there and then isn't interesting to us. > > > > ...edited... > > > bboyminn: > > Although others seem to disagree, I didn't take 'the shop is empty' > to mean completely barren. Valky: Nor me there Steve, which is why I noted that there was no specific mention of the window. Arthur didn't say it was boarded up, like Fortescues was, so these are two very different dissappearances. Steve: > I took it to mean that no one could be found > anywhere, but I assumed that Ollivander left his shop and inventory > intact, which is why it didn't look like there was a struggle. The > lack of struggle, to me, implies that the shop was completely normal > except for the fact there wasn't a soul around. Valky: Yeah it's definitely valid to read it that way IMO, so I think you could be right. > Steve: > On the overal subject of whether Ollivander knew about the > Horcruxes, I don't think he did. It's true he did have some > information that wasn't common knowledge like the connection between > Voldemort and Tom Riddle, but we know that Dumbledore is scant with > information. He doesn't tell anybody anything they don't need to > know and that doesn't serve Dumbledore. > Now applying that to the Horcruxes, it seems that very few in the > wizard world even know what they are. The information is banned at > Hogwarts by Dumbledore. So this doesn't seem to be information that > Dumbledore is throwing about over tea. Certainly he would keep the > knowledge of the Horcrux in general and of their application by > Voldemort a closely guarded secret. I really don't see any reason > for Ollivander to know. Valky: hmmm but I wouldn't be supposing tht Ollie knew of Horcruxes by way of DD divulging it. In fact, if there is a Horcrux in Ollies shop, it would be likley to me that Ollivander has done something in the past that would keep DD from telling him anything, Ollie would be on the 'reasonable doubt that we can trust him' list IMO because he'd have probably gone in for something shady in the first instance to make him of interest to LV. OTOH I imagine that Ollivander the best wand maker of all, might be particularly clever in another specific area. He's a perfectionist in his trade and thats all we know, so I'd wonder if he has a hobby that develops his character more roundly. One trade one Hobby. It would be the Hobby that interests Voldemort the most I'd say. Since LV alredy has a really cool and unique wand. I haven't got my copy of GOF, (don't ask) so I can't really look deeper in to Ollie for signs of a secondary interest that would give us clues here. I know he is involved in security for the Triwizard tournament, so perhaps he has interest in that sort of thing, maybe it is he that LV draws on for inspiration when he is trying to come up with a cunning trap. I m wandering blind here, I hope some one with a copy of GOF could lead me onto the right track. All in all I am pretty enthusiatic myself, about this theory. Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Aug 26 02:08:40 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:08:40 -0000 Subject: *If* there is a piece of Voldemorts soul in Harry WAS Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138758 > Richard: > The choice of a blood-based protection for Harry seems very obvious, > and not contradictory at all with my line of reasoning. It was his > mother's love and sacrifice that protected Harry from Voldemort, and > evidently Dumbledore believed there were enduring residual effects > from this protection to be derived from contact with Harry's > remaining blood relative: Petunia. Therefore, put him with Petunia, > tell her that this protection may not be necessary, but it will > exist so long as she accepts him into her home and as a member of > the family. No contradiction, hole, flaw or anything to explain > away. > > Valky: > > I see something to be explained. Protection from what? that > > Dumbledore couldn't give himself. > > > Amiable Dorsai: > How is Dumbledore to protect Harry? Adopt him? Why would a very > old, single man be allowed to adopt an infant he is not related to? Valky: No that's a good point, I agree, however before HBP, I was half convinced of some very credible arguments against the necessity to put Harry at the Dursleys, in light of their horrible treatment of him. I never felt all that passionately about it, so I probably can't recreate them personally, I even argued well against them, but I still recall that I was agreeable to many points that were made such as after some time the DE's were all locked up, as why didn't Dumbledore find other protection then etc I don't forget a good argument, although I often forget the details and since HBP I have reveiwed those things and wondered if there *is* actually another very specific reason why DD put Harry at the Dursleys instead of hiding him in the WW. In any case nevermind, I have a backup question. :D If this protection is only intended as an external defense to guard against Voldemort and his DE's doing harm to Harry, then why is Draco able to jinx him on the train, why can one of the DE's perform Crucio on him in Flight of the Prince, and Why! does DD want him to go back there for three more years after Voldemort has managed to steal his blood and Bypass the protection? Valky From ragingjess at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 20:23:37 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:23:37 -0400 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I (was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138759 eggplant: > ...the idea that the OOP would agree to let their most powerful, > wisest, and kindest wizard get murdered just to incrementally increase > Voldemort's trust in Snape is ridiculous, especially when it is likely > to have the exact opposite effect. Think back over history, when a > dictator's general wins some huge victory it may increase the > dictator's respect for the general but it never increases his trust. > It is the incompetent general that the troops think of with contempt > that the dictator feels unthreatened by. I have no doubt that the OOP would never agree to this plan, which is why I don't think they had anything to do with it. Either Snape was working alone, or he had an agreement with Dumbledore. (Dumbledore seems to think he's plenty expendable himself, drinking unknown poisons and stuff.) I'm not certain if I buy the whole Voldemort=dictator analogy, as right now big V's running what amounts to a large gang (did you make the Mafia analogy or did someone else? That seems more accurate.), but either way, Voldemort requires his followers to prove their loyalty again and again. Killing Dumbledore would put a big credit in Snape's account, I'm just sayin'. > "And now," the commentator said in a low hushed voice, "The next > member of the Snape lovers team will attempt a mental Reverse Flying > Triple back Somersault with a degree of difficulty of 4.2, .... and so .... > ah too bad, that must have hurt." Oh, THAT's what happened to my back. I thought I just slept wrong. > Nobody is that stupid, if you make an Unbreakable Vow to kill somebody > it doesn't take a genius to figure out what that will lead to. Not if you think you're making a vow about something else (protecting Draco), and then get the surprise third section. (That fabled twitch, whatever it means, is in there for a reason.) There's been a lot of discussion about what the wording of the UV requires Snape to do, so I won't go into again, but I'm sure he was working any and all loopholes. Why else would he be hounding Draco for information? If the kid screwed it up, Snape could just show up and take care of it, just like he did at the bell tower. But also: > I do say that the idea Snape made an > Unbreakable Vow because a pretty woman batted her eyelashes at him, or > on a whim, or he didn't know what he was vowing to do, or that he just > didn't think it through, is, well?.. silly. There is just no other > word for it. Even though this wasn't written to me, I'd like to point out that many men have been dragged into sketchy situations by ego-stroking weepy (or not-so-weepy) women. King David, Mark Antony, Gary Hart - the list goes on... > If one of his lowly Death Eaters had killed Harry after Voldemort had > tried to do it personally 5 times and failed disastrously each and > every time it would look bad, it would look very very bad. Why should > we follow this Bozo who can't even kill a little boy, let's follow the > man who actually killed the Chosen One. It's still a stupid (if incredibly common) choice for a bad guy to make. I stand by that. But you've got an uncanny connection to the mind of Voldemort. > but if he is the sort of man you and I think he is what possible > reason would he have to be loyal to Dumbledore if it conflicts > with his goals? If his goal is to destroy Voldemort, there's no conflict of purpose, just one of method. Jessica, previously: > > He does, however, have a very real > > (if completely personal) sense of > > what is "right," and he acts accordingly. Eggplant: > The only time I've seen Snape do anything good is when he saved > Harry's life in book 1 and he did that because he heard the Prophecy > and needed Harry to get rid of Voldemort for him. I didn't say "good," I said "right, " which is slightly different. Snape, from the looks of things, hates teaching, but we never see him come to class unprepared, and he does try to actually teach these kids potions. I know there are plenty of educators on this board, so I ask you: what do your colleagues who genuinely hate teaching do? I had teachers who came to class drunk, who let us talk for half the period, who never gave tests or graded homework. Snape must feel some sort of duty toward teaching, because he is doing his best at it. That, to him, is the "right" thing to do. (The fact that Snape apparently also thinks that it's right to verbally abuse his students is a subject for another post. Although I should point out that my teacher-husband is sad that we won't be getting any more Snape classroom moments - there's a bit of a wish-fullfillment thing going on there.) > So, so Snape didn't have enough time to figure out it might be a good > idea to kill the Death Eaters but he did have enough time to decide to > murder Dumbledore. Back flip time. Two different issues. (And how could I possibly do another back flip? Did you SEE what the East German judge gave me?) We were discussing the issue of surprise - once Snape enters the room, any surprise advantage he may have is gone. I assume that the time duration from the moment Snape enters the room to the time he kills Dumbledore is about fifteen seconds. I also assume that he can only kill one DE at a time via wand, that he's not trying to hurt Draco, that Dumbledore is concerned about protecting Harry (whether Snape knows he's there or not is moot, but he seems unsurprised that Harry knows he killed Dumbledore), and that Dumbledore is useless in a fight. If Snape kills one DE, he might have enough time to kill another before he's set upon by the remaining hyped-up and extremely trigger-happy DEs, whom he will then have to fight, along with Grayback, all the while not hurting either Draco or invisible Harry. That's not a strategy I could figure out in fifteen seconds, even if I didn't have a UV hanging over my head. This is fun - I feel like I'm on the McLaughlin Group. Eleanor! Yours, Jessica From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Fri Aug 26 02:14:03 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:14:03 -0000 Subject: Draco and Descriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellecain" wrote: > > This has to be one of the funniest, most entertaining and "far out" > posts ever. > I laughed for ages over this!!! > However the Draco - Severus relationship hasn't got an > ice cube's chance in hell. > Havent we been told often enough that Draco's pale pointed face > and pointed chin is exactly like his father's? > Not to mention the sleek blond hair and slow drawling voice that > makes them so similar. > > > Elyse > Given the penchant of the Wizarding purebloods to marry their sisters and their cousins and their aunts, Draco's face may also have been exactly like his mother's. The drawl must have been learned, and the sleek blond hair looked, in the movie at least, like it was directly descended from Brill Cream. However, I defer to your ice cube. Draco's a git, and whatever Snape is, he isn't a git. --Gatta From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 26 02:29:58 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:29:58 -0000 Subject: Lupin as a teacher/Snape as teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138761 Amontillada: > I think that driving boggarts out isn't an unusual > or difficult spell for the professors, but one can't > control where the boggart appears next.) Moving the > entire wardrobe would be inconvenient, at best, for > the faculty and staff. houyhnhnm: Lupin has no trouble controlling the boggart he uses for Harry's patronus lessons. ---------------------------------------------------- ...Professor Lupin turned up carrying a large packing case, which he heaved onto Professor Binn's desk. "What's that?" said Harry "Another boggart," said Lupin, ripping off his cloak. "I've been combing the castle ever since Tuesday, and very luckily, I found this one lurking inside Mr. Filch's filing cabinet ... I can store him in my office when we're not using him; there's a cupboard under my desk he'll like." (PoA, AE pbk., p. 236) ---------------------------------------------------- houyhnhnm: > >Lupin didn't have to turn Snape into an old woman. > >He could have suggested something less humiliating. > >The lesson is a set-up from the get-go, IMO. Amontillada: > I don't think Lupin had that planned--he didn't know > what Neville would find amusing. houyhnhnm: Of course he had it planned. It's his idea. Dressing Snape up in Grandmother's clothes comes entirely from Lupin. ---------------------------------------------------- "...Neville I believe you live with your grandmother?" "Er--yes," said Neville nervously. "But I don't want the boggart to turn into her either." "No, no, you misunderstand me," said Professor Lupin, now smiling. "I wonder, could you tells us what sort of clothes your grandmother usually wears?" Neville looked startled..... (PoA, AE pbk., p. 135) ---------------------------------------------------- Amontillada: > In general, I get the impression that JKR may base > some elements of Hogwarts culture on 19th and early > 20th century school practices, rather than > contemporary ones. I've read, for example, that > corporal punishment was common at that time. > Filch's remarks in OotP give the impression that > it was used at Hogwarts until recently (I wouldn't > be surprised if it was first banned under Dumbledore's > administration). houyhnhnm: Agreed. But I think it's even more evidence that Lupin is acting out of spite rather than concern for Neville, because Snape's treatment of students wouldn't be considered all that wrong in the context of the culture. From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 21:25:12 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: character descriptions (was: Draco and Descriptions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050825212512.37534.qmail@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138762 Elyse wrote, regarding the physical descriptions of all of JKR's characters: > why doesnt she mention > different physical characteristics about these > people but keep repeating the same distinct features? Cat writes: I've read books on fiction writing that state the writer should describe 1 or 2 distinctive features or characteristics for a character. It leaves a clearer picture in the reader's mind. Too much description is considered unnecessary and wordy. From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 26 02:46:31 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:46:31 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I (was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138763 Jessica: > I didn't say "good," I said "right, " which is > slightly different. Snape, from the looks of > things, hates teaching, but we never see him > come to class unprepared, and he does try to > actually teach these kids potions. I know > there are plenty of educators on this board, > so I ask you: what do your colleagues who > genuinely hate teaching do? houyhnhnm: ding! ding! How about take a nap behind the desk, let kids do hair, play cards, surf the internet unsupervised all period. And I still wouldn't ridicule them in front of students. (It's about 2:45 am Zebra time, so this isn't really my fourth post today. It's my first post tomorrow :-) From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 02:55:40 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:55:40 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138764 > Finwitch: > > Oh, I know why: > > Mainly that Snape doesn't wish Dumbledore to know beyond doubt that > he bullies a student. Now that Harry's having private Lessons with > Dumbledore and Slughorn is having his Club (where Neville, Harry and > Hermione are all invited to) some adult would definately know and do > something about it. Marianne S: Is there any evidence that Neville is invited to the Slug Club after the initial train ride? IHarry seemed to think that Slughorn was reserving judgement on Neville when on the train, and I don't recall Neville's name ever coming up in conjunction with Slughorn at any future time. He wasn't one of his potions students, either. It seemed to me that not all the students who received the initial invites remained "in the club" and Hermione was the only one I noticed being added later because of Merit, not just connections. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 26 04:19:04 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 04:19:04 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138765 Vmonte: > Throughout the novel Snape is repeatedly described as having > bat-like and spider-like qualities. Bats are bloodsuckers, and > arachnids spin webs to entrap their prey, once caught they are > sucked dry of their innards until only a husk remains. These are > the perfect descriptions for a man who has laid out webs of deceit > all around him and uses those that he ensnares to achieve his > goals. Jen: I'm still not clear on what Snape's goals *are*! Voldemort pursues immortality, with a side-order of blood purification. Dumbledore pursues unity & freedom, putting all his eggs in the Harry-defeating-Voldemort basket. Harry is on his mission as the Chosen One, and seems pretty clear about what's next. Snape? Um...er...I guess his goal is defeating Voldemort. I'm not sure why, though. And boy would I like to know, because it would clear the air for Harry to get back to those Horcruxes. Vmonte: > Snape can easily lie to the entire Order of the Phoenix. He > only had to fool one member. With Dumbledore backing him, the > other members blindly accepted Snape and everything he did without > question, wrongfully assuming that their all-knowing leader knew > best. I think that this is why J. K. Rowling makes a point for > Dumbledore to inform Harry that he makes mistakes. To banish the > notion that he is somehow more than just a man. Fooling Dumbledore > could have been as easy as tugging on his heartstrings ? The Dark > Lord, however, is another matter. Jen: Very, very good point that many of the Order members trusted Snape only because Dumbledore did. I think their trust was not inspired due to a belief Dumbledore was all-knowing, though. They were in the middle of a war when Snape returned, no one could be trusted including family members. The Order's faith was more likely based on Dumbledore's 'prodigious abilities', including the skill to determine if someone is trustworthy. Dumbledore doesn't suffer fools. A sad story would not be enough to endanger the lives of everyone at Hogwarts, the Order and society in general if he had reservations about Snape. This is hard to connect, but I'm going to try. Snape asked Bella if she really believed he fooled the most accomplished Legilimens in the world by telling falsehoods to Voldemort. Snape said he must have given 'satisfactory answers' or he wouldn't be sitting there. Now I think Snape *does* believe he hoodwinked Voldemort due to his superb Occlumency skills, and he is so, so wrong. The only reason he's still alive is because he's extremely useful to Voldemort. He's the only DE placed inside Hogwarts next to Dumbledore. Invaluable. Vmonte: > Never one to pass up an opportunity to "toot his own horn" Snape > implies that he has the power to lie to the face of the Dark > Lord. This also applies to Dumbledore; if Snape can utter > falsehoods to Voldemort you could also argue that he can lie to > Dumbledore. Jen: I sort of addressed this above, but wanted to add the point that a few meetings attempting to convince Voldemort of his loyalty is nothing like almost daily interaction with Dumbledore for 15+ years. And while Dumbeldore states he trusts Severus Snape, he's also quite aware of his weaknesses, thus denying him the DADA job. vmonte: > I think it no mistake that Snape lives at Spinner's End. The > imagery speaks for itself. However, titling the > Chapter "Spinner's End" evokes a dual meaning: The end of the > Spinner ? The end of the web. It is in this chapter that Snape > makes the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa. Jen: Hey, maybe so...I actually read that title to mean the end of spinning a story in the political sense. Either one has the same meaning for the plot: Snape must choose, he can't continue to play both sides, the UV forces his hand and he agrees to his hand being forced. Vmonte: > Snape's hand twitches and he pauses. His hesitancy shows he > understands that he may regret this decision. But he was backed > into a corner. Showing his intentions to be anything other than > for the Dark Lord and the protection of his own, especially in > front of Bellatrix would certainly have meant his death. Jen: Now this part I can't agree with. Bella is out of favor with the Dark Lord. Narcissa has no clout because of Lucius' mistakes. Neither of the women are supposed to be there talking to Snape to begin with, according to Narcissa. Narcissa strokes Snape's ego with all the many ways he's the Dark Lord's favorite and when the DE's defer to him on the tower, it appears he does have some power in the ranks. So what were the women holding over his head? Not much. *They* should have been worried he would turn them into Voldemort for treason. The UV wasn't completed, he could have turned the tables on them and thrown them out, saying he was going to report them to Voldemort. The only way I can see Snape could have died by not accepting the vow is if the women were simply doing the dirty work for Voldemort. He wants DD dead and at first decides to punish Lucius by drafting Draco. Narcissa begs and pleads, blah, blah, and asks, "why not Severus instead, he's at Hogwarts?" Voldemort, already expecting Snape will be a necessary part of the plan because of his closeness to DD, decides to force Snape's hand and make him prove his loyalty. He grants Narcissa a way out for Draco, but demands she seal the deal with an UV. Vmonte: > To intentionally kill someone causes so much damage to your soul > that it tears apart. It would not be in Dumbledore's character to > ask this of Snape. Dumbledore's been trying to keep Snape away > from the Defense Against the Dark Arts position for years because > of his fear that it would tempt Snape back to the dark side. It > doesn't seem very likely that Dumbledore would risk Snape's mortal > soul. He trusted and protected a man who kills him in cold > blood. Jen: I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved in OOTP that he believes the good of the community outweighs any one individual, including himself. I really believe Dumbledore trusted Snape to do the right thing until the very end: Save Draco, get the DE's and Fenrir the hell away from Hogwarts, and keep Harry from harm. Those three things would be more important to Dumbledore than his own life. *But*, the big but, DD has much reverence for the power of love and an untarnished soul. You can't enjoy the next great adventure without them, I'd imagine. So no, I don't believe DD was pleading with Snape to AK him. And that's where I always run into a brick wall. The only thing I feel certain about is Snape *did* get the DE's away from Hogwarts and he kept Harry from being severely hurt or killed. Snape did what Dumbledore would have wanted, in the end, possibly saving many lives at the expense of his own soul. The Horcrux questions I'll leave for someone else! Thanks, Vivian, you really made me think about a few things tonight. Jen From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Aug 26 04:54:11 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:54:11 EDT Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil Message-ID: <111.50f96e66.303ffa73@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138766 I resist believing this because it makes Professor Dumbledore out to be a fool. In Professor Dumbledore's memory of the time Tom Riddle comes to apply for a job as DADA teacher, Tom says that there's no evidence that Professor Dumbledore's theory that love is more important is correct. Professor Dumbledore is in fact truly sad that he cannot turn Tom from his pursuit of evil. Harry himself is impatient with Professor Dumbledore giving the young Tom Riddle a chance to change. Everyone says that Professor Dumbledore gives people "second chances", "trusts people", and trusts in personal transformation. In the last hours of his life Professor Dumbledore tries to convince Draco Malfoy to choose the right side and come over to the side of goodness and love -- he appeals to Draco's concern -- not just for himself -- but for his mother and father..... I guess I could accept that Professor Dumbledorewas wrong about Snape, but that his belief in change and transformation are still valid...but the whole idea that Snape had fooled Professor Dumbledoreall these years plays into the idea that good people are "fools'..and that Albus Dumbledore himself -- the greatest wizard of his time -- was really gullible and foolish.... I don't like it..... And yet, another question.....what WAS Tom's motivation in applying to Professor Dumbledore for the DADA job? He didn't expect to get it...he knew Prof. DD would turn him down..did he need to physically enter Hogwarts for another reason? Susan McGee _SusanGSMcGee at aol.com_ (mailto:SusanGSMcGee at aol.com) Interested in joining a low volume group -- Harry Potter for Grownups Over 40? Email me or go to _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfguover40/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfguover40/) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nawyecka at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 05:40:06 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050826054006.7497.qmail@web60425.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138767 --- Jen Reese wrote: > Vmonte: > > Snape can easily lie to the entire Order of the > Phoenix. He > > only had to fool one member. With Dumbledore > backing him, the > > other members blindly accepted Snape and > everything he did without > > question, wrongfully assuming that their > all-knowing leader knew > > best. Snip > Jen Now: Very, very good point that many of the Order > members trusted > Snape only because Dumbledore did. I think their > trust was not > inspired due to a belief Dumbledore was all-knowing, > though. They > were in the middle of a war when Snape returned, no > one could be > trusted including family members. The Order's faith > was more likely > based on Dumbledore's 'prodigious abilities', > including the skill to > determine if someone is trustworthy. > Snip > This is hard to connect, but I'm going to try. Snape > asked Bella if > she really believed he fooled the most accomplished > Legilimens in > the world by telling falsehoods to Voldemort. Snape > said he must > have given 'satisfactory answers' or he wouldn't be > sitting there. > Now I think Snape *does* believe he hoodwinked > Voldemort due to his > superb Occlumency skills, and he is so, so wrong. > The only reason > he's still alive is because he's extremely useful to > Voldemort. He's > the only DE placed inside Hogwarts next to > Dumbledore. Invaluable. Larry now: Jen, I don't follow this at all. If Voldemort believed Snape to be lying, he would no longer view Snape as a DE. As far as I can tell, the qualifications for status as a DE are unswerving and unquestioning loyalty to Voldemort; it is a true cult of personality. Loyalty to another would seem to disqualify one from membership in good standing. And we all know that there is only one way out of that little society. There is no way I can reconcile a living Snape and a Voldemort aware of his lies. Either Snape did fool Voldemort, and is loyal to Dumbledore, or he simply told Voldemort the truth, hence there would be no lie to detect. Snip > Vmonte: > > To intentionally kill someone causes so much > damage to your soul > > that it tears apart. It would not be in > Dumbledore's character to > > ask this of Snape. Dumbledore's been trying to > keep Snape away > > from the Defense Against the Dark Arts position > for years because > > of his fear that it would tempt Snape back to the > dark side. It > > doesn't seem very likely that Dumbledore would > risk Snape's mortal > > soul. He trusted and protected a man who kills > him in cold > > blood. > > Jen: I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved > in OOTP that he > believes the good of the community outweighs any one > individual, > including himself. Larry now: Really? Didn't Dumbledore in OOTP confess to Harry that by not fully informing Harry of the whole and entire truth he put the larger community at risk? Jen now: I really believe Dumbledore > trusted Snape to do > the right thing until the very end: Save Draco, get > the DE's and > Fenrir the hell away from Hogwarts, and keep Harry > from harm. Those > three things would be more important to Dumbledore > than his own life. > > *But*, the big but, DD has much reverence for the > power of love and > an untarnished soul. You can't enjoy the next great > adventure > without them, I'd imagine. So no, I don't believe DD > was pleading > with Snape to AK him. And that's where I always run > into a brick > wall. > > The only thing I feel certain about is Snape *did* > get the DE's away > from Hogwarts and he kept Harry from being severely > hurt or killed. > Snape did what Dumbledore would have wanted, in the > end, possibly > saving many lives at the expense of his own soul. > Jen Larry now Jen, I think you are trying to square a circle here. Dumbledore would never have wanted someone, anyone, to do anything at the expence of their soul. I quote from a previous post here 138237: Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a life unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging or destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I cannot understand how we can have gotten to know Dumbledore as we have and believe for a second that he would sacrifice a human soul for any reason. snip Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no one, there is no inner circle. Voldemort is the only chess master here, it is his utterly ruthless willingness to sacrifice any one or anything to get what he wants that marks him as the Dark Lord. For Dumbledore to sacrifice a soul, any soul, would be to have him use the means of the enemy., putting him on the road to becoming the enemy. Remember, it is our choices that makes us who we are. And if we choose to act as the Dark Lord, we will become as the Dark Lord. A choice Dumbledore would never make, and a path he would never follow. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From juli17 at aol.com Fri Aug 26 05:57:36 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:57:36 EDT Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence Message-ID: <27.7854b4bd.30400950@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138768 Lolita wrote: The revealing of Snape as the good guy will have any literary value only if his innocence is proven after his demise. Everything else would be a betrayal of the genre's expectations. Julie says: Ah, but JKR has said before that she wants to turn the genre on its head (something like that). She's deliberately twisting the genre a bit, which to me can be a way of improving something that's gone a bit stale rather than a betrayal of expectations. I guess it all depends on your POV ;-) Lolita wrote: Someone also said that Dumbledore pulled a Pettigrew. Hello?! It's DUMBLEDORE we're talking about. Remember, the guy who believes that death is but the next great adventure? Why on Earth would he fake his own death? He has no angry friend he tricked to hide from. Does it really sound plausible to you that Dumbledore would leave Harry to face everything alone, that he would endanger the position of his trusted spy by making it seem that he killed him, that he would leave both Hogwarts and the Order on their own so that he could be a 'shadow leader'? No, it doesn't. Julie says: I agree totally. It's isn't plausible for DD's character, in fact DD faking his death undercuts his character's integrity. I say let DD move on to that next great adventure--it hardly means that he won't be around in some way or form to assist or encourage Harry. Lolita wrote: And, again, in the highly unlikely event of Dumbledore's faked death, the literary conventions of the genre would be betrayed and the readers would - rightfully - feel tricked. Rowling isn't the world's greatest writer, she's actually very far from it, but I really don't think that she is that much ignorant of literary theory and history. The Still Alive!Dumbledore theory has the same reek as the Sirius-Is-Not-Really-Dead one. Julie: There are a lot of ways to define a great writer. JKR may not have the greatest prose, but she's captivated an audience of a size and to a degree rarely known with the story of Harry Potter. And the complexity of her plotting is pretty exceptional. Her imagination also matches those of the best. All in all, I think her legacy will speak very well for her indeed. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 26 09:10:31 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:10:31 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved in OOTP that he > believes the good of the community outweighs any one individual, > including himself. I really believe Dumbledore trusted Snape to do > the right thing until the very end: Save Draco, get the DE's and > Fenrir the hell away from Hogwarts, and keep Harry from harm. Those > three things would be more important to Dumbledore than his own life. > > *But*, the big but, DD has much reverence for the power of love and > an untarnished soul. You can't enjoy the next great adventure > without them, I'd imagine. So no, I don't believe DD was pleading > with Snape to AK him. And that's where I always run into a brick > wall. > Hickengruendler: IMO, the question for Dumbledore was, what was the lesser of the two evils. Evil 1: Dumbledore allows Snape to kill him. Snape soul splits (or maybe it doesn't. Who knows, maybe in this case the soul remains intact, because Snape's intentions weren't as evil as they normally are when someone commits a murder). And afterwards, Snape gets the Death Eaters and the horrible Greyback away from Hogwarts to save everyone else. Evil 2: Dumbledore does not want Snape to kill him. He dies anyway, either because of the Potion or because he is too weak (although because of the Potion) to fight the other Death Eaters. They kill him. Snape drops dead, because he didn't fulfill the vow. The Death Eaters now have their field day. First, Greyback eats Dumbledore's boy (and maybe Snape's as well). While doing so, the other Death Eaters discover the second broom and search for Harry. He can no show himself and can move again. He already fought them successfully at the end of OotP, but of course on the tower he has much less room, and if he doesn't manage to reach the door, it looks grim for him. So maybe Harry survives or maybe not. However, with Dumbledore out of the way, and without Snape urging them to flee. The Death Eaters would fight further, probably killing and injuring more students and teachers, maybe kidnapping Trelawney (although admittingly, this is speculation. But Snape knows, that she's in danger, considering that he was the Death Eater. who overheard her). Afterwards Voldemort or the DE would kill Draco, because he failed his mission, and very possibly Narcissa would accompany her son into the Afterlife. Trelawney would have been tortured to get the prophecy out of her. In other words, the outcome would be much worse, than it was this way. If it was a master plan between DD and SS, than I don't think anyone of them was happy about it, but it was a sacrifice for the greater good. Hickengruendler From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 26 09:16:43 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 05:16:43 -0400 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives Message-ID: <003101c5aa1e$e08090b0$b3c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138770 Vmonte: > Snape's hand twitches and he pauses. His hesitancy shows he > understands that he may regret this decision. But he was backed > into a corner. Showing his intentions to be anything other than > for the Dark Lord and the protection of his own, especially in > front of Bellatrix would certainly have meant his death. Jen: Now this part I can't agree with. Bella is out of favor with the Dark Lord. Narcissa has no clout because of Lucius' mistakes. Neither of the women are supposed to be there talking to Snape to begin with, according to Narcissa. Narcissa strokes Snape's ego with all the many ways he's the Dark Lord's favorite and when the DE's defer to him on the tower, it appears he does have some power in the ranks. So what were the women holding over his head? Not much. *They* should have been worried he would turn them into Voldemort for treason. The UV wasn't completed, he could have turned the tables on them and thrown them out, saying he was going to report them to Voldemort. CathyD: And Bellatrix herself is incapable of a well placed AK? I don't think so. If at this point Snape had jumped up and didn't go through with the Vow, he would have been dead on the spot. Bella didn't trust him walking into the place and we don't know if Snape really changed her opinion of him with is answers, but if he showed the slightest lack of loyalty at the moment of the Vow, if he didn't finish making the Vow when presented with the third part he was not expecting (IMO), she would have killed him immediately and spun the story to LV later. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 10:19:13 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:19:13 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138771 "Marianne S." > > Is there any evidence that Neville is invited to the Slug Club after > the initial train ride? Finwitch: Harry didn't *go* to those meetings, because he was busy with Quidditch or Dumbledore's special lessons or detention. We never hear that Neville got dropped off later - we do know that Hermione goes, though... and I'd say if Snape did something improper, Hermione would be telling Slughorn... but Harry having private lessons with Dumbledore at odd times counts for even more. Imagine Dumbledore arranging one of his special lessons when Harry's still feeling angry due to Snape's bullying behaviour towards Neville... Snape doesn't want Dumbledore to find out about that sort of thing so he's NOT doing it in front of Harry. Finwitch From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 11:48:12 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:48:12 -0000 Subject: *If* there is a piece of Voldemorts soul in Harry WAS Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138772 Valky: > In any case nevermind, I have a backup question. :D > > If this protection is only intended as an external defense to guard > against Voldemort and his DE's doing harm to Harry, then why is Draco > able to jinx him on the train, why can one of the DE's perform Crucio > on him in Flight of the Prince, and Why! does DD want him to go back > there for three more years after Voldemort has managed to steal his > blood and Bypass the protection? Mimbeltonia bumping in here to: Is it not so, that Harry would be protected through the magic _invoked by Dumbledore_ based on Lily's sacrifice, in and only in Petunias home, giving him a safe place, but no protection outside in the muggle or wizarding world. Before Voldemort had managed to steal his blood, the protection of Lily's sacrifice _itself_ made it impossible for him to touch Harry. This he bypassed, but still, until he turns 17, Voldemort can not touch him at his aunts place. -Mimbeltonia From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 11:04:46 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:04:46 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138773 Mimbeltonia once again pops in, not really up to date, please excuse me again, but: I keep seeing people wondering about the significance of Harry having Lily's eys. I thought that was already obvious from the HPB, but maybe I misunderstood JKR's hint completely. The _reason_ why Harry has Lily's eyes is not and was never a mystery - it is simply because he is her son. The _significance_ (to the plot!) of his eyes looking exactly like his mother's is the effect looking into Harry's (Lily's) imploring eyes has on Slughorn, whose favourite student she once were: He can not resist, and Harry receives the vital information, the horcrux memory. Isn't that just it?? Mimbeltonia From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Fri Aug 26 08:46:07 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:46:07 +0200 Subject: Diary Horcrux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430ED6CF.30201@me.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138774 Hi, About the diary horcrux, from what I understand the Basilisk killed Myrtle (since the last thing she saw was the basilisk's eyes). So how could this tear Tom Riddle's soul apart? /Fabian From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 26 12:11:15 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:11:15 -0000 Subject: Does Snape bully Neville in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138775 > Finwitch: Imagine Dumbledore > arranging one of his special lessons when Harry's still feeling angry > due to Snape's bullying behaviour towards Neville... Snape doesn't > want Dumbledore to find out about that sort of thing so he's NOT > doing it in front of Harry. Potioncat: There were several things many of us wanted in HBP. One was for Snape to get DADA just so we could see the interactions between Snape and various members of the DA. I have to admit I was unpleasantly surprised that we didn't see any of that. Sort of reminded of the fairy tale wishes...someone gets what they wish for, but not the results they expected. As for Neville, we get much less of him than we expected too. But we just are not told how Snape manages the DADA class. (At least, not that I picked up after 1 1/5 readings. My take was that Slughorn invited Neville because he is Frank and Alice's son. But, not seeing any of the exceptional traits of Frank and Alice in him, Slughorn didn't invite him to the club. In chapter 7, after the lunch he encourages McClaggen, Harry, Blaise (he uses first names here) and Ginny (he calls her Miss) to come by his office to visit at any time. Neville and Belby are not mentioned. Oh, did anyone else think of Marcus Welby when they read Marcus Belby? Potioncat (We of course, know that Neville has lots of exceptional traitls!) From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 12:24:59 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:24:59 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138776 > Mimbeltonia: > > The _reason_ why Harry has Lily's eyes is not and was never a > mystery - it is simply because he is her son. > > The _significance_ (to the plot!) of his eyes looking exactly like > his mother's is the effect looking into Harry's (Lily's) imploring > eyes has on Slughorn, whose favourite student she once were: He can > not resist, and Harry receives the vital information, the horcrux > memory. hg: I agree and I'll add (and get laughed off the board for it) that I think Slughorn is Lily's grandfather. His eyes are green. There's nothing that says that her parents 100% without a doubt were her blood parents, or that one or both weren't squibs. Or that one of her parents wasn't a child of a squib. If this were the case, plotwise, Slughorn would have much more at stake regarding Harry, and would go to more lengths to help him or protect him. For what it's worth... hg. From lolita_ns at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 12:20:53 2005 From: lolita_ns at yahoo.com (lolita_ns) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:20:53 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: <27.7854b4bd.30400950@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138777 > Julie says: > Ah, but JKR has said before that she wants to turn the genre on > its head (something like that). She's deliberately twisting the genre > a bit, which to me can be a way of improving something that's > gone a bit stale rather than a betrayal of expectations. > > I guess it all depends on your POV ;-) No, it doesn't depend on POV. JKR is not a revolutionary writer, her approach is rather conventional (she is a great plotter, but a poor stylist) - third person selective omniscience with occasional excursions to neutral omniscience is nothing new, far from it actually. As for the betrayal of the genre's expectations - it doesn't have to mean that, if genre is betrayed, the book is worthless. If you have dealt with literature and literary theory on a more serious basis, you would understand that I am not speaking in derogatory terms. Let me explain the whole genre thing on a couple of examples from trivial literature (which is usually discussed among theorists when genre analysis is concern, for it is rather straightforward). When reading a James Bond novel, do you expect Bond to have great gadgets, sexbombs falling into his arms and his triumphing over bad guys with a smirk? Of course you do. How would you feel if Bond decided to go celibate or didn't have the latest model of a car or whatever? That is the betrayal of the genre. Or, in detective novel, the mystery always has to be solved. You can have it revealed only after the villain has ecsaped or died or whatever, but the puzzle must always be solved. Otherwise, the genre is betrayed. You can try some genre experimenting, but it usually renders poor results when not properly handled. For instance, X Files was highly successful because the characteres were, in a way, two-dimensional. You didn't know anything about Mulder's or Scully's private lives apart from what was obviously necessary for the story. The moment the characters started to develop, the series' quality started to dissipate. You just don't want to see Scully as a wife and a mother - and when you eventually did, the series went stale and eventually stopped. Nabokov was a genre experimentator, he turned genre on its head. A more recent example is that of Julian Barnes (Flaubert's Parrot, anyone?). THAT is the improvement of the genre. JKR is a highly conventional wrietr when genre and style are concerned. > > Julie: > There are a lot of ways to define a great writer. JKR may not have > the greatest prose, but she's captivated an audience of a size and > to a degree rarely known with the story of Harry Potter. And the > complexity of her plotting is pretty exceptional. Her imagination > also matches those of the best. All in all, I think her legacy will > speak very well for her indeed. > I agree that she is and will be widely read. That does not make her a great writer. That makes her a popular writer. A couple of decades at least will have to pass until we can look at HP in any historical context. The books will undoubtedly remain highly popular. But then, so are Conan Doyle's. And his plotting was exceptional. I don't hear many people calling him a great writer nowadays. Litearray theory is not a relative thing. Popularity, OTOH, is. Lolita. From bhdalke at earthlink.net Fri Aug 26 04:36:57 2005 From: bhdalke at earthlink.net (Bonnie Dalke) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 04:36:57 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138778 > houyhnhnm: > >I have been wondering lately if the "three Ds" aren't > important in all kinds of magic, not just apparition. > > In the case of a charm, the person or object being charmed would be > the Destination. Determination would be the intent to produce a > particular effect. Deliberation would be the mental efficiency with > which the spell was cast. > > A spell cast with insufficient Determination would simply fail to > produce its intended effect. One cast with insufficient Deliberation > would produce the effect, but also produce an excess of unfocused > energy, resulting in a blast. > This is interesting because I theorize that the wand functions to focus magic power just as a laser focuses light energy. Obviously, young wizards must learn to focus and channel their power, that's why they attend Hogwarts. Emotion is a factor, too. We know that a happy, positive emotion is required to conjure a patronus. And on the other end of the emotional spectrum, Bellatrix taunts Harry in the atrium of the MOM: "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain--to enjoy it--righteous anger won't hurt me for long--I'll show you how it's done, shall I?" (OOP p. 810 USed) So what was going on on top of the tower when?: Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus . . .please . . ." Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumblecore. "Avada Kedavra!" (HBP p. 595-6 USed) Bonnie. From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 12:51:13 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I (was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > Jessica: > > > I didn't say "good," I said "right, " which is > > slightly different. Snape, from the looks of > > things, hates teaching, but we never see him > > come to class unprepared, and he does try to > > actually teach these kids potions. I know > > there are plenty of educators on this board, > > so I ask you: what do your colleagues who > > genuinely hate teaching do? > > houyhnhnm: > > ding! ding! How about take a nap behind the desk, let kids do hair, > play cards, surf the internet unsupervised all period. And I still > wouldn't ridicule them in front of students. > I also have never ridiculed or criticised a colleague in front of students, but incompetent or uncaring teachers are certainly the topic of discussion in many a staff room, and most (in my school anyway) are reported to the adminstrators, who implement an improvement plan - and everyone knows it. Is Hogwarts so different from a muggle school that staff members would show respect for a teacher who does not deserve it? Lorel, who is just playing Devil's Advocate as she simply cannot make up her mind about Snape From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 26 12:51:37 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:37 -0000 Subject: Obsession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138780 Jen Reese wrote: > After thinking about HBP as a whole, how it fits into the series, I > realized one of the major themes is obsession. > OK, so I don't have to go through every event, and there are many > of them, but the most significant ones are: > > ***Harry's obsession with Draco, as well as his somewhat minor > obsession with the Half-Blood Prince. Both of these things distract > him from his important work with Dumbledore, and in the case of the > Prince teachings, Harry increases his ability to be deceptive and > feels drawn to use dark magic spells. SSSusan: I agree with you that this obsession with Draco DID distract Harry. In fact, one of my favorite moments of HBP (and I know it was NOT a fav of many) was when DD actually got Harry to feel shame over not having worked on the Slughorn memory extraction. He did it so effectively! OTOH, I have to wonder about this particular part of the obsession "message." You're right that it distracted Harry, slowed down the process DD was working on with Harry, but for once it turned out Harry was RIGHT. So was it bad to have obsessed about Draco? That kind of provides a segue to this one... Jen: > ***Dumbledore's obsession with finding the Horcruxes. Digging > around in the obsession theme, I had to start wondering about > Dumbledore leaving the school for long periods of time to hunt > Horcruxes alone, coming in contact with all sorts of dark magic and > then depending on the reactive strategy of Snape 'saving' him > before major damage was done. SSSusan: Yep, seems a bit risky, doesn't it? Not just that Snape could be ESE! and wouldn't actually save him (nah -- not buying that ;-)) but also in the sense that it's a risk he'd manage to find Snape in time. Jen: > Did he became so intent on finding and destroying Horcruxes he lost > his focus in other areas? The night of the cave, when Harry comes > to him with information about Draco and Snape, Dumbledore dismisses > it. SSSusan: Right -- this brings us back to what Harry was obsessing about. In this case Harry was CORRECT, but was DD so obsessed with his mission that he didn't attend carefully enough to Harry? Brushed aside Harry's information & concerns too quickly? Was the problem here that they were *both* too obsessed with their own obsession? Could it also be that DD was so focused/obsessed because he KNEW time was short? We still can't agree around here on whether the green goo was killing DD anyway, I know, but there are also members who think that the ring hx damage was also slowly weakening & perhaps killing DD. Did DD know that, green goo or not, his days were numbered? Is that why he was so single-mindedly focused on the horcruxes? Jen: > 2) Dumbledore was completely fixated on getting to the cave. I > really believe his tunnel vision about the cave contributed to him > deciding against telling Harry, finally, why he trusted Severus > Snape. The time was right, Harry knew the truth of Snape being the > eavesdropper, he *deserved* an explanation since he lost both his > parents partially due to Snape's information. But Dumbledore > hesitated, probably deciding the Horcruxes were more important (an > old man's mistake again?) and the moment was gone. SSSusan: That is a huge frustration for us readers, as well as for Harry. I think it's possible that you're right -- that the reason DD didn't tell Harry is that he was too focused on the cave mission. But I also still wonder if it might not have been because whatever the revelation about Snape is, it is INTENSELY PERSONAL and possibly involves Lily. I know that the new discussion revolves around Snape & Narcissa, not Snape & Lily, but either way, I think DD felt the need to continue to protect Snape's privacy a little longer. At least, that's what I'm predicting. ;-) Jen: > I feel certain obsession brought Snape down, but I wonder where it > was rooted. In his family dynamics and early life... His > life at Hogwarts as a half-blood sorted into Slytherin? His > interest in Dark magic & choice to be a DE? By taking the > Unbreakable.... SSSusan: Search me. I once argued for Narcissistic!Snape and his being obsessed with having the respect of those deemed to be beneath or equal to him, something which perhaps would make his end-of-PoA, gone ballistic scene more understandable. This would imply obsession with respect, recognition, etc. But I'm just not sure it fits with HBP! Snape.... Jen: > You know, I just realized something--we didn't get our Dumbledore > explanation at the end of HBP. Wah. SSSusan: Wah, indeed! :-( And we won't get one in Book 7 either. The most we can hope for, I suppose, are bottled memories for the pensieve or for portrait-talk, but it's not the same, is it? Siriusly Snapey Susan, ridiculously behind in reading HPfGU posts, but diving right in here anyhow. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 26 12:59:23 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:59:23 -0000 Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: <111.50f96e66.303ffa73@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin (Message 138766) >I resist believing this because it makes Professor Dumbledore out >to be a fool. snip >...but the whole >idea that Snape had fooled Professor Dumbledoreall these years >plays into the idea that good people are "fools'..and that Albus >Dumbledore himself -- the greatest wizard of his time -- was really >gullible and foolish.... > I don't like it..... "K": I *don't like it* either but it's really quite simple. It does not matter if Dumbledore has been fooled because he isn't the star of the series. Harry is and it only matters that *Harry* is right. Guess everyone should have listened to Harry! (Please, spare me) From ibchawz at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 13:35:58 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:35:58 -0000 Subject: "Spinner's End," a canon-based interpretation (Wa: Snape did kill DD with AK!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138782 Carol wrote: To begin with, do you agree, based on what we know of him from all six books, that Snape is capable of deception? If yes, then isn't it possible that a number of his statements in "Spinner's End" are either false or not wholly true? If so, then the whole story that Snape tells Bellatrix may be a skilfully woven fabric of truths, half-truths, and lies. It is probably best not to take anything Snape says here at face value, especially given his implication in OoP that a really skilled Occlumens can deceive even Voldemort. ibchawz responds: While most of your post is logically presented, here's the part I question. If Snape is "capable of deception", is he really telling the truth when he tells Harry "that a really skilled Occlumens can deceive Voldemort"? After all, he is giving Harry the private lessons on Dumbledore's orders. Could this be a set up? Could it be that even Snape, the master Occlumens that he is, can't hide his own thoughts from Voldemort? If Harry becomes a skilled Occlumens, he will think that he can deceive Voldemort, when it won't really matter. Harry would enter battle with Voldemort thinking he has an advantage, but it would prove worthless. Snape has repeatedly shown disdain towards Harry, so I don't think this is outside the realm of possibility. What better way to get revenge on one someone that you think is arrogant than to give them a tool that they think will make them invincible (and thus, more arrogant), when it will not? ibchawz From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 26 13:54:58 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:54:58 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138783 Jen: > I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved > in OOTP that he believes the good of the community > outweighs any one individual, including himself. > I really believe Dumbledore trusted Snape to do > the right thing until the very end: Save Draco, > get the DE's and Fenrir the hell away from Hogwarts, > and keep Harry > from harm. Those three things would > be more important to Dumbledore than his own life. > *But*, the big but, DD has much reverence for > the power of love and an untarnished soul. > You can't enjoy the next great adventure > without them, I'd imagine. So no, I don't > believe DD was pleading with Snape to AK him. > And that's where I always run into a brick wall. houyhnhnm: That's why I've come to the conclusion that the pleading didn't refer to what was happening on the tower. As soon as Snape came through the door I think both men knew there was only one way down for both of them. Dumbledore knew that his death was approaching, even before the complication of Draco's "task". He must have been concerned about what would happen after he was gone, especially with regard to Snape. As someone else has pointed out, Snape fits the profile of an authoritarian personality very well. If he is loyal to Dumbledore, I would imagine it is to Dumbledore as an individual, not to what Dumbledore stands for. I doubt if Snape groks the love magic. I know there is no solid canonical evidence, but I suspect Dumbledore wanted Snape to look out for Harry, or in some other way further DD's plan, after DD was gone. This could be what the argument in the forest was about. Dumbledore has managed to extract some kind promise from Snape. In the forest, Snape says DD takes too much for granted; he doesn't want to do it any more. DD says "you promised and that's all there is to it" (paraphrasing) It fits. On the tower, Dumbledore pleads again--do what you promised to do when I'm no longer around to control you by your need for my approval. If this is indeed what happened then Snape has already made his choice at the end of book 6. He gets the DEs out of Hogwarts and watches Harry's back as he does it. (Personally, I think he performed the freezing charm on Fenrir Greyback. Remember how bad Harry is at recognizing voices.) Maybe this is why Dumbledore is sleeping so peacefully in his portrait. As for "killing tears the soul", we've been over this ground again and again. People are just black and white on this issue. I certainly would agree that, in the real world, killing damages the soul. I've always stopped a little short of absolute pacifism. I'm just not sure. But we're discussing the Potterverse here, not the real world. There is just *one line* (out of how many thousand pages?) that supports this view and it specifies *murder*. I don't understand why people are so fixated on this. What will it do to Snape to have killed Dumbledore, if it is out of necessity and without malice? I guess we will find out in book 7. It's just my fantasy about the characters, with only tenuous support from canon, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore didn't mind teaching Snape a lesson. It may not tear Snapes soul to have killed Dumbledore (if it was not murder), but it may well tear his heart. Dumbledore may have been willing to break Snape's heart in order to force him to acknowledge he has one. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 26 13:59:26 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:59:26 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: <20050826054006.7497.qmail@web60425.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138784 > > Jen: I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved > > in OOTP that he > > believes the good of the community outweighs any one > > individual, > > including himself. > Larry now: > Really? Didn't Dumbledore in OOTP confess to Harry > that by not fully informing Harry of the whole and > entire truth he put the larger community at risk? Jen: Yes, and he called it the 'flaw in his plan' and said 'I had fallen into the trap I had foreseen'. He viewed the fact that he cared more for Harry's happiness than the 'nameless, faceless' people and creatures of the WW as a mistake. Dumbledore clearly stated he held this conviction about community good, yet succumbed to the temptation to spare Harry pain. Larry: > Dumbledore would never have wanted someone, anyone, to > do anything at the expence of their soul. > I quote from a previous post here 138237: Jen: And I never said he did. I stated: 'So no, I don't believe DD was pleading with Snape to AK him.' I was considering the possibility Snape made the choice to rip his own soul if he did indeed murder Dumbledore. My point was that the outcome, Snape taking the DE's away from Hogwarts and keeping Harry from serious harm or death, was something Dumbledore would have wanted. I never said Dumbledore asked him to rip his soul to make that happen. Jen, previous post: > > Now I think Snape *does* believe he hoodwinked Voldemort due to > > his superb Occlumency skills, and he is so, so wrong. The only > > reason he's still alive is because he's extremely useful to > > Voldemort. He's the only DE placed inside Hogwarts next to > > Dumbledore. Invaluable. Larry: > If Voldemort believed Snape to be lying, he would no longer view > Snape as a DE. As far as I can tell, the qualifications for > status as a DE are unswerving and unquestioning loyalty to > Voldemort; it is a true cult of personality. Either Snape > did fool Voldemort, and is loyal to Dumbledore, or he simply told > Voldemort the truth, hence there would be no lie to detect. Jen: If Voldemort AK'd everyone he didn't completely trust he would have no followers. You alluded to this same idea: "Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no one, there is no inner circle." My intent wasn't clear before, but I wasn't saying Voldemort believes Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and he still allowed him to live. That would be folly, I agree. You called Voldemort a chess master and as such, he understands the importance of all the pieces including pawns. Voldemort sees Snape's usefulness for his plan to kill Dumbledore because he's placed at Hogwarts & has Dumbledore's trust. Snape is not the DE Bella is, with her slavish obedience, or Wormtail, with his utter fear. He is more along the lines of 'slippery friend' Lucius. I don't find it a contradiction that Snape is still alive even though Voldemort doesn't have complete trust in him. Like any pawn, Snape will pay for perceived disloyalty now that the job is done. Jen From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 14:01:21 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:01:21 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138785 >vmonte: Throughout the novel Snape is repeatedly described as having bat-like and spider-like qualities. Bats are bloodsuckers, and arachnids spin webs to entrap their prey, once caught they are sucked dry of their innards until only a husk remains. These are the perfect descriptions for a man who has laid out webs of deceit all around him and uses those that he ensnares to achieve his goals. >Jen: I'm still not clear on what Snape's goals *are*! Voldemort pursues immortality, with a side-order of blood purification. Dumbledore pursues unity & freedom, putting all his eggs in the Harry-defeating-Voldemort basket. Harry is on his mission as the Chosen One, and seems pretty clear about what's next. Snape? Um...er...I guess his goal is defeating Voldemort. I'm not sure why, though. And boy would I like to know, because it would clear the air for Harry to get back to those Horcruxes. vmonte again: HBP P510-511 "It is Voldemort's fault that you were able to see into his thoughts, his ambitions, that you even understand the snakelike language in which he gives orders, and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world (which, incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to have), you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts..." Why would JKR bring to our attention that any DE would kill to have Harry's gift? >Vmonte: Snape's hand twitches and he pauses. His hesitancy shows he understands that he may regret this decision. But he was backed into a corner. Showing his intentions to be anything other than for the Dark Lord and the protection of his own, especially in front of Bellatrix would certainly have meant his death. >Jen: Now this part I can't agree with. Bella is out of favor with the Dark Lord. Narcissa has no clout because of Lucius' mistakes. Neither of the women are supposed to be there talking to Snape to begin with, according to Narcissa. Narcissa strokes Snape's ego with all the many ways he's the Dark Lord's favorite and when the DE's defer to him on the tower, it appears he does have some power in the ranks. So what were the women holding over his head? Not much. *They* should have been worried he would turn them into Voldemort for treason. The UV wasn't completed, he could have turned the tables on them and thrown them out, saying he was going to report them to Voldemort. vmonte: But he didn't. Snape's vanity brought him down. Narcissa "in a way" manipulated Snape by stroking his ego. The spinner brought down by a black-widow spider! HA >Jen: I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved in OOTP that he believes the good of the community outweighs any one individual, including himself. I really believe Dumbledore trusted Snape to do the right thing until the very end: Save Draco, get the DE's and Fenrir the hell away from Hogwarts, and keep Harry from harm. Those three things would be more important to Dumbledore than his own life. *But*, the big but, DD has much reverence for the power of love and an untarnished soul. You can't enjoy the next great adventure without them, I'd imagine. So no, I don't believe DD was pleading with Snape to AK him. And that's where I always run into a brick wall. vmonte: I remember Dumbledore's speech from OOTP. There he tells Harry that he basically loves/cares for him so much that his grand plan is flawed. I'll look it up later. Vivian From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 14:23:53 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:23:53 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > hg: > I agree and I'll add (and get laughed off the board for it) that I > think Slughorn is Lily's grandfather. His eyes are green. Afraid not, at least according to Part 3 of the JKR interview at Muggle.net (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml), which has the following exchange: ***** MA: What about Harry's family ? his grandparents ? were they killed? JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them. ***** I don't think JKR could have been much clearer about this. Ersatz Harry From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 14:26:22 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:26:22 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Afraid not, at least according to Part 3 of the JKR interview at > Muggle.net (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml), which has > the following exchange: Sorry about that; the site is MuggleNet.com, not Muggle.net. But the link is okay. Ersatz Harry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 14:28:58 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:28:58 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138789 > > houyhnhnm: > > > > As for "killing tears the soul", we've been over this ground again > and > > again. People are just black and white on this issue. I certainly > > would agree that, in the real world, killing damages the soul. > I've > > always stopped a little short of absolute pacifism. I'm just not > > sure. But we're discussing the Potterverse here, not the real > world. > > There is just *one line* (out of how many thousand pages?) that > > supports this view and it specifies *murder*. I don't understand > why > > people are so fixated on this. > Alla: Because to me it is NOT just one line - it is whole Tom Riddle's story with horcruxes, to me it is one of the fundamental themes in HBP and I am NOT talking about RL now, I am talking specifically about "Potterverse" So , IMO only, the argument that murder taints the soul is very firmly supported by HBP. I just don't see any signs pointing to the contrary. Personally, I think that in the RL killing sometimes can be excused in rare circumstances( soldier under the orders to kill enemy, self defense). But I see the "murder tainst the soul" in HBP as something which one should strive for - as if killing is the worst thing which person could ever do . You know, like there are excuses, but it does not mean that it should be justified to. More idealistic approach, more of a lesson - yes, I know, JKR said that these are not books about morality, but she also called them "moral books", so I can totally see this kind of message. I don't see those books as books about spying activities, even though they do talk about spies. I think these books have at heart different idea than " ends justify the means" as many spy thrillers do, IMO. I DO see Snape thinking that he is helping out the good guys by killing Dumbledore ( as in he is dying anyway, whatever) I don't see narrator letting him get away with it - as if devaluing human life so much that if Dumbledore is old and weakened he needs to be done away with. Sorry, just don't see it, don't see it at all. I can buy Redeemed!Snape who feels an awful lot of remorse in book 7, I cannot buy Redeemed!Snape who at the end would still feel justified for what he did. > Houyhnhnm: > > > > What will it do to Snape to have killed Dumbledore, if it is out > of > > necessity and without malice? I guess we will find out in book > 7. > Alla: I guess I just don't see killing out of necessity here. > Houyhnhnm: > > It's just my fantasy about the characters, with only tenuous > support > > from canon, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore didn't mind > > teaching Snape a lesson. It may not tear Snapes soul to have > killed > > Dumbledore (if it was not murder), but it may well tear his > heart. > > Dumbledore may have been willing to break Snape's heart in order > to > > force him to acknowledge he has one. > > Alla: But for what price? As Dan argued earlier, Dumbledore himself only managed to destroy two horcruxes, TWO. Is he really that confident that Harry is ready to destroy other four that he is happy to leave him without guidance and help in order to go into next adventure to teach Snape a lesson? It seems to me that Dumbledore left a lot of unfinished business, that is why I can perfectly see him pleading "please, help me". Just my opinion, Alla. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 14:36:59 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:36:59 -0000 Subject: S/N is officially named ACID POPS (was: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138790 After some offlist communication I decided that we are going to market two brands: 1) ACID POPS light: Alas! Cissy is Despondent. Perhaps Old Playmate Severus? This brand is for those members who prefer their Snape noble at heart and the savior of damsels in distress. 2) ACID POPS extra strength: Alas! Cissy is Despondent. Perhaps Obsessively Passionate Severus? This brand is for those members who believe that Severus was obsessively in love with Narcissa since they were at Slythrin together (warning: this kind will burn a hole in your tongue in 15 seconds). Additional brands of ACID POPS may be offered in the future, depending on market demand, further research of canon and the possibilities offered by the letters O and P. Regardless of brand, all consumers of ACID POPS support the assertion that Severus' emotions for Narcissa were a main reason for his choice to undertake the Unbreakable Vow, and that Narcissa was at least partially aware of these emotions and stirring them. That's the essence of ACID POPS. All brands will be sold in a booth to be opened on the TBAY beach near George's, right in front of the docking place of the good ship LOLLIPOPS (and let them eat their hearts out). Neri thanks Carol, Jen and Potioncat for the support and copywriting services. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 14:45:19 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:45:19 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138791 > > hg: > > I agree and I'll add (and get laughed off the board for it) that I > > think Slughorn is Lily's grandfather. His eyes are green. > > Afraid not, at least according to Part 3 of the JKR interview at > Muggle.net (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml), which has > the following exchange: > > ***** > MA: What about Harry's family ? his grandparents ? were they killed? > > JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it > was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I > rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt > Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, > of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my > backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's > parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which > explains the only child, very pampered, > had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I > think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed > to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing > serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the > way so I killed them. > ***** > > I don't think JKR could have been much clearer about this. > > Ersatz Harry hg: Thanks for posting one of her quotes, but I've researched quite carefully, including the interviews, and I've taken them into account. Incidentally, that particular quote is in reference to Harry's grandparents, not Lily's, and is about him being alone. Slughorn being Harry's grandfather doesn't conflict with any of that. As far as I've seen, there's nothing that rules it out as a possibility. hg. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 15:03:40 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:03:40 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138792 - > >Vmonte: > Snape's hand twitches and he pauses. His hesitancy shows he > understands that he may regret this decision. But he was backed > into a corner. Showing his intentions to be anything other than for > the Dark Lord and the protection of his own, especially in front of > Bellatrix would certainly have meant his death. > > >Jen: Now this part I can't agree with. Bella is out of favor with > the Dark Lord. Narcissa has no clout because of Lucius' mistakes. > Neither of the women are supposed to be there talking to Snape to > begin with, according to Narcissa. Narcissa strokes Snape's ego with > all the many ways he's the Dark Lord's favorite and when the DE's > defer to him on the tower, it appears he does have some power in the > ranks. So what were the women holding over his head? Not much. > *They* should have been worried he would turn them into Voldemort > for treason. The UV wasn't completed, he could have turned the > tables on them and thrown them out, saying he was going to report > them to Voldemort. > > vmonte: > But he didn't. Snape's vanity brought him down. Narcissa "in a way" > manipulated Snape by stroking his ego. The spinner brought down by a > black-widow spider! HA Amiable Dorsai: Myself, I thought it was a question of "In for a penny, in for a pound," but I love your imagery. I've come to believe there were several levels operating here: Snape was lying when he told Narcissa that he already knew what Draco's task was to be, I feel certain of that. He lied in hopes of drawing more information out of her without having Bella blow a gasket. Why agree to the Unbreakable Vow? 1. He thought that whatever Draco's task was to be, knowledge of it was worth the risk of his life--either because he was loyal to Dumbledore, or because he hoped to cement a shaky position with Voldemort, or just because knowledge is power. 2. A beautiful woman was begging him, practically throwing herself at him. (If you don't think this would affect a man, Slytherin or no Slytherin, especially one who is not used to such attention, I suggest you think again. Testosterone is tricky stuff.) 3. He gets to score off Bella the Bitch. 4. Lucius is out of the picture. Narcissa is wealthy and well-connected. She will owe him a huge favor... 5. Why agree to the last bit? What could Bella hold over him? Well, at that moment, the more than a little crazy witch who managed to take out three Aurors at the DoM was holding her wand over him. Pick one, pick 'em all, your choice. I choose all of the above. Amiable Dorsai From Sherry at PebTech.net Fri Aug 26 13:34:40 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:34:40 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138793 Mimbeltonia wrote: > > The _reason_ why Harry has Lily's eyes is not and was never a > mystery - it is simply because he is her son. > Amontillada: Just as he resembles James because he's James' son. That resemblance has attracted more witches' and wizards' attention because James, and the Potter family in general, had long been part of the WW. As early as SS/PS, others were noticing and identifying Harry because of his resemblance to his father. Many were more than a generation older, so they had seen earlier members of the Potter family. Because she was Muggle-born, Lily herself would have been the first member of her family who was familiar to the wizarding community. And because she lived such a short life, fewer wizards and witches would have known her or have a lasting memory of her appearance. Mimbletonia: > The _significance_ (to the plot!) of his eyes looking exactly like > his mother's is the effect looking into Harry's (Lily's) imploring > eyes has on Slughorn, whose favourite student she once were: He can > not resist, and Harry receives the vital information, the horcrux > memory. Amontillada: Slughorn is the first wizard we've met who remembers Lily not merely *as* clearly, but even *more* clearly than he remembers James. He thinks of Harry first as "Lily's son," while Sirius and Lupin, for example, thought of him first as "James' son" (before they really knew Harry as an individual). > Amontillada From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 26 15:16:51 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:16:51 -0000 Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: <111.50f96e66.303ffa73@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138794 --- Schlobin wrote: (snipped) > I resist believing this because it makes Professor Dumbledore out > to be a fool. ... > > I guess I could accept that Professor Dumbledorewas wrong about > Snape, but that his belief in change and transformation are still > valid...but the whole idea that Snape had fooled Professor > Dumbledore all these years plays into the idea that good people > are "fools'..and that Albus Dumbledore himself -- the greatest > wizard of his time -- was really gullible and foolish.... > > I don't like it..... aussie says:- I take your point. I don't know if Snape is actually ESE (ever so evil). I think more, he was biding his time with enough trust in each camp to decide which was a better deal for himself. Not just in a Pettigrew way, but with a bid for power play. If LV dies and DE can continue, he would fancy himself as their next leader. If things hadn't gone to Draco's advantage, he could have remained the DADA teacher. In Spinners End (HBP), he answered many questions. He showed he has a tactical mind: "I had plenty of time to think about what I wanted to do, to plan my next move, to escape like Karkaroff, didn't I?" Was his original story to DD real? -He was sent to DD by LV to begin with. He said as much at Spinners End and that is why LV trusts him there. Did he stay at Hogwarts (not completely trusted by DD, since he was never offered the DADA role) out of loyalty to LV? -It was the safest way to avoid Azkaban since DD was his only supportive witness. Either way, Snape could have made sure he was ok, before helping either DE or OOP. -aussie- From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 26 15:20:14 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:14 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138795 Ersatz Harry provided this link and quotes: (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml), > > > > ***** This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it > > was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I > > rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt > > Petunia. > hg: > Thanks for posting one of her quotes, but I've researched quite > carefully, including the interviews, and I've taken them into > account. Incidentally, that particular quote is in reference to > Harry's grandparents, not Lily's, and is about him being alone. > Slughorn being Harry's grandfather doesn't conflict with any of > that. As far as I've seen, there's nothing that rules it out as a > possibility. Potioncat: Sorry, no I beleive JKR is talking about both sides of Harry's family and the sentence I kept from the quote certainly means the Evans side. Add to that the blood protection from Lily. If Slughorn was Lily's grandfather, Harry could have stayed with him. Also, if memory serves me, Slughorn is still somewhat amazed that Lily as a Muggle-born witch had such powers. We actually have several sets of characters who share common descriptions that have, over the years, caused people to wonder at a family connection. (Hair color alone would possibly have DD, Weasleys and Lily related OR Snape and McGonagall related) But I'm convinced there is enough canon and interviews to nix this one. Nevermind. Just about all of us have come up with some ideas that others have shot down wiht canon. Potioncat From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 26 15:23:10 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:23:10 -0000 Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > > Did he stay at Hogwarts (not completely trusted by DD, since he was > never offered the DADA role) out of loyalty to LV? -It was the > safest way to avoid Azkaban since DD was his only supportive witness. > I don't think that DD didn't completely trust Snape. I believe Dumbledore DID trust Snape, completely(as DD has been consistant on this fact). The reason why DD didn't offer Snape the DADA job before was that DD knew the post was cursed. We just discovered that in HBP, but DD knew about this for a long time. For DD to put Snape in the DADA position this year is telling of the trust that DD had in Snape. Dumbledore knew that Snape would be gone at the end of the term, based on the DADA curse. Where Snape would go after the term seems to be the question. Did DD do this so that Snape would have a very good reason to go back deep-undercover into LV's lair? I think he did. Snape could not leave Hogwarts on his own, as Voldemort *wanted* him there to spy on DD. So, the very curse that Voldemort put on the DADA job is Voldemort's undoing with Snape being *forced* to leave Hogwarts. JMHO, of course. colebiancardi From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 26 15:24:40 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:24:40 -0000 Subject: LV's motive / timing for Draco's mission Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138797 When did Dumbledore injure his hand in relation to Snape hearing of LV's plan? If Snape knew LV's plan before Spinners End, then was it before DD came to him to be cured after blackening his hand? Snape could have killed DD at that time, or disarmed DD and summonded Draco. OR- What is Snape reported of DD's Dark Curse encounter to LV. You-No- Poo could have decided DD was too dangerous to keep alive then. LV may realise DD got the ring from his uncle's old house, but know that DD doesn't know how many other Horcruxes there are. The only one with clear information was Slughorn. Therefore, it was no coincidence DD went looking for Slughorn to bring under his protective wing at Hogwarts. -aussie- From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 26 15:32:17 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:32:17 -0000 Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: The reason why DD didn't offer Snape the DADA job before > was that DD knew the post was cursed. We just discovered that in HBP, > but DD knew about this for a long time. Hickengruendler: But if this was true, it would be really awful from Dumbledore to hire all those other people. Dumbledore had hired a new teacher each year since Voldemort applied for the job. And the idea that "the epitome of goodness" does not want to sacrifice Snape, but is perfectly ready to get all those other people in danger does not sit well with me. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Fri Aug 26 15:50:43 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:50:43 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138800 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" >wrote: >The reason why DD didn't offer Snape the DADA job before >> was that DD knew the post was cursed. We just discovered that in >HBP, >> but DD knew about this for a long time. > >Hickengruendler: > >But if this was true, it would be really awful from Dumbledore to hire >all those other people. Dumbledore had hired a new teacher each year >since Voldemort applied for the job. And the idea that "the epitome of >goodness" does not want to sacrifice Snape, but is perfectly ready to >get all those other people in danger does not sit well with me. Laura: But I don't actually believe that the curse causes something bad to happen. If the real Moody had shown up to teach DADA and it was decided that he would do so for only ONE year, things would have been fine and nothing would have to have happened to him. This was, in fact, Dumbledore's plan. Quirrell was evidently fine after his first stint of teaching at Hogwarts. As long as the person leaves after one year, I don't think we know that the curse directly causes harm. Personally, I don't believe that the curse made Pretty Boy Lockhart use Ron's wand. I believe that he got himself into that difficulty. Just as Quirrell and Umbridges actions caused their problems. To me, the curse just means that the person has to leave after one year. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From muellem at bc.edu Fri Aug 26 15:56:09 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:56:09 -0000 Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" > wrote: > The reason why DD didn't offer Snape the DADA job before > > was that DD knew the post was cursed. We just discovered that in > HBP, > > but DD knew about this for a long time. > > Hickengruendler: > > But if this was true, it would be really awful from Dumbledore to hire > all those other people. Dumbledore had hired a new teacher each year > since Voldemort applied for the job. And the idea that "the epitome of > goodness" does not want to sacrifice Snape, but is perfectly ready to > get all those other people in danger does not sit well with me. It doesn't sit well with me, either. However, DD did state to Harry that ever since Riddle applied for the DADA job & was turned down, they haven't been able to keep someone in that position for more than a year. Perhaps, before the rise of Voldemort began with QuirrelMort, the DADA teachers just left on their own accord and nothing *bad* happened to them. They just didn't like the job. However, once Voldy started to come back, perhaps the danger of taking on the position of the DADA job was more apparent. Although, 2 of the 5 teachers that had the post were in line with Voldemort(Quirrell & Fake!Mad-Eye) died and the other three (Lockheart ,Lupin & Umbridge) did not. The ones in the DE camp were killed and the other three were just booted out of Hogwarts, although Lockheart has a bit of a memory problem, he is not dead. Hmmm...sounds like Snape was also booted out of Hogwarts(in a way). He was not killed. Am I onto something here? Anyway, DD knew the job was cursed - he stated it to Harry. colebiancardi From nawyecka at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 15:56:47 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050826155647.60686.qmail@web60417.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138803 Larry: > > Really? Didn't Dumbledore in OOTP confess to Harry > > that by not fully informing Harry of the whole and > > entire truth he put the larger community at risk? > > Jen: Yes, and he called it the 'flaw in his plan' > and said 'I had > fallen into the trap I had foreseen'. He viewed the > fact that he > cared more for Harry's happiness than the 'nameless, > faceless' > people and creatures of the WW as a mistake. > Dumbledore clearly > stated he held this conviction about community good, > yet succumbed > to the temptation to spare Harry pain. Larry now: Didn't Dumbledore also state somewhere that we are defined by our choices? JMO, but I think we can define ourselves by our convictions or by our actions; and where they are inconsistant I go with choices over convictions every time. snip > Jen: If Voldemort AK'd everyone he didn't completely > trust he would > have no followers. You alluded to this same idea: > "Dumbledore has > also said that Voldemort trusts no one, there is no > inner circle." > My intent wasn't clear before, but I wasn't saying > Voldemort > believes Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and he still > allowed him to > live. That would be folly, I agree. Larry now: I agree with you that it would be folly, but I still don't understand what you are otherwise suggesting. If Snape is lying to Voldemort as you suggest, what is he lying about? Snape is either Dumbledore's man or he isn't. If Snape is wrong as you suggest, what is he wrong about? What is the wool he believes he has pulled over Voldemort's snake-like eyes? Snip Jen: He is > more along the lines of 'slippery friend' Lucius. I > don't find it a > contradiction that Snape is still alive even though > Voldemort > doesn't have complete trust in him. Like any pawn, > Snape will pay > for perceived disloyalty now that the job is done. > > Jen Larry now: As for Lucius Malfoy, he is indeed seen as "slippery" by Voldemort, but he is not suspected of being a Dumbledore loyalist or spy. As for complete trust, Voldemort has no trust, complete or otherwise for anyone; he has other means of enforcing loyality. What disloyality will Snape pay for? If he is not Dumbledore's man there is nothing for him to pay for. If he is a Dumbledore loyalist and Voldemort knows it, what usefulness does he serve? If you're suggesting that Voldemort merely has detected Snape was not loyal during the long years of his absence, how does that make Snape any different from all other non-imprisoned DE, hence what will he have to pay for? Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 26 16:00:46 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:00:46 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I (was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138804 "Jessica Bathurst" wrote: > Either Snape was working alone In which case it was an act of betrayal just as I said. > or he had an agreement with Dumbledore. Then Dumbledore really is senile and Snape should be reprimanded for taking advantage of him. > Dumbledore seems to think he's plenty > expendable himself, drinking unknown > poisons and stuff. Dumbledore must think Harry and Snape are expendable too because he must know that one result of his "plan" is that if and when Voldemort is defeated Harry will dedicate his life to killing Snape. > I'd like to point out that many men > have been dragged into sketchy > situations by ego-stroking weepy > (or not-so-weepy) women. But this is so blatant, it would be such an incredibly stupid thing to do, and this is Snape we're talking about. Do you really expect JKR to write her next book on this foundation? What a hideous turkey that would be! To make the good Snape theory work you must pile up stupid and uncharacteristic actions on top of improbable coincidences on top of illogical plans on top of a bad plot to produce a dreadful book. And I just don't think that's going to happen. > if you think you're making a vow > about something else (protecting > Draco), and then get the surprise > third section. It is a fact that for 16 years Snape has been a good enough secret agent to fool either Dumbledore or Voldemort or both (I think both). You have to be pretty smart to do that and it would be uncharacteristically brain dead dumb to make a beginner's blunder like that. > I stand by that. But you've got an > uncanny connection to the mind > of Voldemort. Thanks .. I think. > If his [Snape's] goal is to destroy > Voldemort, there's no conflict > of purpose That is one of his goals; I think the other is to become the most powerful wizard in the world and to do that he must kill Dumbledore too. > we never see him [Snape] come to > class unprepared, and he does try > to actually teach these kids potions. Not only does Snape abuse children to an almost criminal degree I don't think he's even very good at teaching his subject. When Harry makes a potion for the first time without Snape breathing down his neck in his OWL test he surprised himself at how well he does. > my teacher-husband is sad that we > won't be getting any more Snape > classroom moments I'd like more Snape classroom moments too, I love reading about Snape but I don't think I'd love actually having him as a teacher. > once Snape enters the room, any > surprise advantage he may have > is gone. Not true, the Death Eaters think Snape is on their side and do not expect him to attack them. > Snape kills one DE, he might have > enough time to kill another > before he's set upon by the > remaining hyped-up and extremely > trigger-happy DEs, whom he will > then have to fight, along with > Grayback Snape is far more powerful than the Death Eaters, I think he'd have a pretty good chance of killing them all in a surprise attack. And if he failed .,well . better to die than betray your friends. Eggplant From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Aug 26 16:03:26 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:03:26 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138805 Alla: > I don't see narrator letting him get away with > it - as if devaluing human life so much that if > Dumbledore is old and weakened he needs to be done > away with. > Sorry, just don't see it, don't see it at all. houyhnhnm: Not because Dumbledore is old and weak and "needs to be done away with". Because, once he arrives on the tower, Snape has only two choices. See post 138769. You say the only way Snape can keep from damaging his soul is to let himself, Dumbledore, possibly Draco, Harry, Trelawney, and others die at the hands of the Death Eaters. That's your personal feeling--and you have a perfect right to hold it--but it is not supported by text. *My* personal feeling, and one which I think has a lot more support in canon, is that Snape's soul has been in much greater peril from his inability to care about other people, than from some legalistic technicality about performing an AK, *if* the only way he can save many other lives is by sacrificing Dumbledore. Oh well, I'm never going to turn a Calvinist into a Universalist. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 26 16:09:42 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:09:42 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bonnie Dalke" wrote: > Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and > hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. > "Severus . . .please . . ." > Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumblecore. > "Avada Kedavra!" (HBP p. 595-6 USed) Pat: I think this can equally be seen as revulsion for a plan to fake Dumbledore's death, resulting in Snape going back to being a full time Death Eater. I think Snape is really on his own side, and would prefer to end his service to the Dark Lord. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 26 16:40:55 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:40:55 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape, ESG!Snape, OFHSnape (was something else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138807 > Eggplant: > To make the good Snape theory work you must pile up stupid and > uncharacteristic actions on top of improbable coincidences on top of > illogical plans on top of a bad plot to produce a dreadful book. And I > just don't think that's going to happen. > Potioncat: JKR has written the books in such a way that we know we do not always know what we think we know. On top of that, we know there are things we don't know. In addition, we don't always know if the characters know what we know; know something we don't know; or if they are who we think they are. However, we are here to discuss the possibilities. She has made Snape's loyalty ambiguous from the very beginning and I'm sure we will all have several more little chats about it. Some of us, regardless of whether we are promoting ESE!Snape or ESG!Snape, come up with more plausible theories than others. Based on what we think we know from what we think happened, Snape could be loyal to the Order, he could be loyal to the Dark Lord or he could be out for himself. I think whichever way it turns out, the plot will not be bad and the books will not be dreadful. If they were, it would be the ultimate Series of Unfortunate Events. From lealess at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 16:54:54 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:54:54 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape, ESG!Snape, OFHSnape (was something else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Some of us, > regardless of whether we are promoting ESE!Snape or ESG!Snape, come > up with more plausible theories than others. Based on what we think > we know from what we think happened, Snape could be loyal to the > Order, he could be loyal to the Dark Lord or he could be out for > himself. Speaking as a Snape agnostic, I advocate a Stuck In the Middle - Trapped on a Tightrope or SIM-TOT!Snape, someone who made bad choices which led to even more difficult situations and choices, someone who really hasn't been dealing with the whole mess very well, someone who is probably still SIM-TOT and may remain so until he, sadly, dies. lealess From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 11:47:00 2005 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:47:00 -0000 Subject: Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138809 Cat, in parts: > > what thought could Snape have that would allow him to make > > a patronius. > > Since it's white as opposed to dark magic, I don't think the > > thoughts of gleefully torturing students, muggles etc would do > > it. Do DE's have patronius; David: Interesting. Where does it say a patronus is 'white'? Is the phrase 'white magic' ever used in the books? My recollection of JKR's world is that there's 'dark magic' and then everything else. A patronus is simply a defensive spell similar to protego (I think it was) for a shield spell. All we know of the mental gymnastics required to cast the patronus spell is that the caster's mind has to be in a happy place. Unfortunately, what make some people happy would disgust the rest of us. For all we know, Snape's happiest thought is when his major protaganist James Potter is killed. Thinking about it now, the happiest I remember Snape was in POA when Sirius has been captured. Fudge is telling Snape he will be honored with an Order of Merit award or something. Snape is almost giddy with the thought of the recognition. When Sirius escaped, Snape was most angry. >From this, my guess is Snape's happy thought has something to do with him being the big cheese in some fashion (Hogwarts head, MOM official, WW leader after replacing V'mort???). David From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 16:58:04 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:04 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138810 > houyhnhnm: > > Not because Dumbledore is old and weak and "needs to be done away > with". Because, once he arrives on the tower, Snape has only two > choices. See post 138769. > > You say the only way Snape can keep from damaging his soul is to let > himself, Dumbledore, possibly Draco, Harry, Trelawney, and others die > at the hands of the Death Eaters. That's your personal feeling-- and > you have a perfect right to hold it--but it is not supported by > text. Alla: Erm... That is not what I said. " Snape killing Dumbledore equals Snape hurting his soul" does not imply that Snape should let other people die. It only implies that Snape should not kill Dumbledore, IMO. So, since I did not say that, I agree with you - it is no supported by text. What IS supported by text, IMO only, is that killing is bad for your soul. Houyhnnnm: > *My* personal feeling, and one which I think has a lot more support > in canon, is that Snape's soul has been in much greater peril from > his inability to care about other people, than from some legalistic > technicality about performing an AK, *if* the only way he can save > many other lives is by sacrificing Dumbledore. Alla: Again, could you please not subscribe to me something which I did not say? Snape's inability to care about other people is IMO exactly what eventually led him to kill Dumbledore . Namely the fact that Snape was desperately clinging to his own life. Nowhere did I say anything about "legalistic technicality about performing AK" As far as I am concerned, Snape was not brave enough to meet his next great adventure with head held high ( what Harry thinks about the last battle). Maybe Snape wants to help good guys, maybe he does not, but I don't think the means he choose for that if he does, are justified. Houyh > Oh well, I'm never going to turn a Calvinist into a Universalist. > You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. Alla: Indeed. JMO, Alla From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 26 17:03:54 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:03:54 -0400 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes Message-ID: <003501c5aa60$243eb980$3ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138811 hg: >>Incidentally, that particular quote is in reference to Harry's grandparents, not Lily's, and is about him being alone. Slughorn being Harry's grandfather doesn't conflict with any of that. As far as I've seen, there's nothing that rules it out as a possibility. CathyD: "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're *the only family* he has left now." (PS pg 15 Can Ed) I think that rules Slughorn out as a family member, don't you? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elbarad at aol.com Fri Aug 26 17:22:25 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:22:25 -0000 Subject: Levels and contradictions in JKR's writing - Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > And since you were talking about irony, Steve, here's the one I see: > by making his life near-endless, Tom deprived it of any value. His > cursed life is simply not worth living, IMO, and I think that's what > DD alluded to when he said that there are things worse than death. Tom > never realised (he couldn't, I think) that quantity doesn't mean > quality, and that quality of life is what *really* matters. Lily > Potter, for example, lived a short life, but what a beautiful life! > But for LV, Lily was just a "silly girl"... Absolutely. And this is a theme I remember seeing before now. In particular I remember an episode of Doctor Who (the five doctors) where the baddy seeks and gains immortality. Unfortunately, in his quest for power and immortality he did not question what form this would take. He ended up turned into a statue in a crypt: destined to spend immortality immobile, speechless, yet conscious. I was only 10 when I watched it but I remember feeling horrified at that thought of an immortal prision, thinking it the most horrific punishment possible. Rebecca From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 17:23:37 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:23:37 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: <003501c5aa60$243eb980$3ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > hg: > >>Incidentally, that particular quote is in reference to > Harry's grandparents, not Lily's, and is about him being alone. > Slughorn being Harry's grandfather doesn't conflict with any of > that. As far as I've seen, there's nothing that rules it out as a > possibility. > > CathyD: > "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're *the only family* he has left now." (PS pg 15 Can Ed) I think that rules Slughorn out as a family member, don't you? > hg: Not if Dumbledore doesn't know. There's been plenty he hasn't known about. And if he did know, as Potioncat said, Dumbledore wouldn't have left him with the Dursleys. I think that Dumbledore would think Slughorn should be the last person to raise Harry; after all, Dumbledore was relieved that Harry wasn't a "pampered little prince." Ah, well. hg. From elbarad at aol.com Fri Aug 26 17:30:41 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:30:41 -0000 Subject: Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" > > Rebecca: > > It was not what had happened to Tom that made him the person he was, > > it was the way that he saw what had happened to him, and the way > > that he reacted to it. "he was special" , "better", it was the > > "others who were wrong". He was essentially arrogant and, basically, > > not-a-nice-person. > > When you say "the way that he saw what had happened to him, and the > way that he reacted to it" you imply choice. I think his choices were > already severely constrained by the time he got old enough to make > any; he had not had the nature (genetics) and nurture (caregiver bond) > necessary to enable normal infant/child development. For him to even > have a chance of learning that he was *human* (something he never did > on the most basic level because he never bonded to one), by the time > Dumbledore found him, would have taken intense, qualified attention he > just didn't get. But we don't know that, Sandy. We don't know that he was never cuddled, or pampered or played with. We know that he was raised in an orphanage and that the staff would have been over-worked and without much time to spend with any particular child. But we don't know that he 'never' received any 'nice' treatment. I can only conclude that some of it must have been nice, simply because I cannot comprehend how anyone could spend time with a small baby and not be tender with them. However, neither could I comprehend how the Dursley's could fail to be tender with a toddler - and JKR writes that they did fail. But, despite having already contradicted myself, I still maintain that we don't know that TR's treatment was any worse than harry's; for all we know it may have been substantially better. OK, Harry got 14 months of pure love, but then nothing. TR likely did get (albeit smaller amounts) of positive treatment over a much longer period of time. Rebecca From merpsiren at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 17:25:47 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:25:47 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138815 Mimbletonia: > The _reason_ why Harry has Lily's eyes is not and was never a > mystery - it is simply because he is her son. Something I was thinking about when pondering the whole eyes question... "The eyes are the window to the soul." So with Harry having Lily's eyes... are we seeing a clue to something more about what is protecting Harry? Perhaps there is a magical connection between Lily's soul through her sacrifice? Has she passed her soul to him? I really don't have the answers, but am intrigued by the possiblites... I'm sure all of the clever minds on this board will be able to offer some ideas! -Kris From dave1x2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 16:11:25 2005 From: dave1x2003 at yahoo.com (dave1x2003) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:11:25 -0000 Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138816 "koinonia02" wrote: I *don't like it* either but it's really quite simple. It does not matter if Dumbledore has been fooled because he isn't the star of the series. Harry is and it only matters that *Harry* is right. I have to disagree with you here. In the end, maybe, Harry is the hero. However, Dumbledore is a sort of God figure in the series, not quite omnipotent or omniscient, but pretty close. He is also the moral center and guide for Harry as he matures and takes the final task upon himself. And remember, Harry is "Dumbledore's man" through and through. So I think it matters quite a bit that Dumbledore is proven not to be a fool. I also am in the "Snape is good" camp. I think things were left vague in certain areas to leave the door open for a plausible explaination of a good Snape even in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary. The biggest of these is that we don't yet know exactly why DD would put his complete trust in Snape. What event or conversation actually transpired. Harry has reasoned that he "felt bad" about ratting out James and Lily, but we haven't heard that from DD. I have a feeling we'll find out eventually. Anyway, I just don't see DD being wrong on the one thing he was most adamant about over the course of the series. -Dave1 From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 26 18:40:39 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:40:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil References: <1125035870.2658.1324.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001901c5aa6d$a9a13a00$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 138817 Susan wrote: >And yet, another question.....what WAS Tom's motivation in applying to >Professor Dumbledore for the DADA job? He didn't expect to get it...he knew Prof. >DD would turn him down..did he need to physically enter Hogwarts for another >reason? Perhaps to get inside Hogwarts to put the curse on the post. After all, the curse is one of the best possible ways Voldemort could have had to screw up the opposition in the long term. Dolly Umbridge quite rightly (hate to agree with her though I do) points out how far behind Harry's class are in DADA. Multiply that by every year since Voldemort first cast the curse and you can see how the good guys are under a disadvantage unless they either have enormous talent or are getting help from elsewhere. gwyn eich byd Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 18:49:13 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:49:13 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I (was: It's over, Snape is evil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138818 eggplant wrote: > Snape is far more powerful than the Death Eaters, I think he'd have a > pretty good chance of killing them all in a surprise attack. And if he > failed .,well . better to die than betray your friends. > zgirnius: That's not exactly the choice Snape is given here, though, is it? There are people besides DD on the tower in possible need of rescue (Draco and Harry). If Snape takes the chance, takes on the four DEs, and fails, he can reasonably suppose that this may result in the deaths of Harry, Draco, and Dumbledore as well as that of Snape himself. Your statement also makes an assumption about how, exactly, the UV works. (Yet another thing we just don't know...grrr). I agree that from what we have seen, Snape's duelling skills would give him a good chance in the four-to-one fight you suggest, especially with the element of surprise. But Snape's hands may be tied by the Vow. Even if he is willing to die, what if he drops dead the moment he acts to prevent the killing of Dumbledore, due to the working of the UV? And even if not, what if Greyback grabs Draco and uses him as a human shield/threatens his life, thus activating the other, less vague, clauses of that Vow? (We must consider whom Bellatrix has told about the UV...) If the UV gets Snape before he gets all of the DEs, the attack is pointless from a practical standpoint. If you prefer an ethical worldview in which only adherence to a small number of clearly stated ethical principles matters, regardless of the likely consequences of one's actions to others or to oneself, you are right. The ethical choice for Snape is to try as you suggest, and risk failure with the consequences outlined above. However, if you prefer a view of ethics which considers intentions and outcomes, the choice to kill Dumbledore in order to save others (and others DD cares about, I might add), *especially* since the death of Dumbledore might result from *either* choice, can be defended. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 26 18:55:59 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:55:59 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138819 > > Alla: > > Erm... That is not what I said. " Snape killing Dumbledore equals > Snape hurting his soul" does not imply that Snape should let other > people die. > > It only implies that Snape should not kill Dumbledore, IMO. Hickengruendler: However, what other choice did Snape have? Supposing he had not killed Dumbledore, do you think all those other characters had survived? In the end, not killing Dumbledore would IMO have been equivalent with deciding to let more people die. Because Dumbledore would have died either by the Potion or through the hands of the other Death Eaters anyway. And then Snape, the one who urged the other DEs to flee the scene, would have died as well for not fulfilling the vow. And if there was noone to make them leave, they could have done much more harm than they already did, to Harry and to the other Hogwarts inhabitants, at least to those who were fighting. There was no hope for Dumbledore in this scene, and I think both Snape and Dumbledore knew this. And if killing really splits the soul and Snape was acting on Dumbledore's wishes, than Snape made in fact a greater sacrifice than Dumbledore. On the other hand, this selflessness does not fit his character at all. But I'm not sure what exactly splits the soul. Is it the act of killing itself, or is it that you are that evil, that you wish somebody dead and decide to act on this wish? If it's the later, then the deed might not have split Snape's soul, if he only acted on Dumbledore's orders. From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 18:57:56 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:57:56 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138820 "colebiancardi" wrote: --Although DD told > him that Snape did everything the night that Sirius died, Harry > *still* wanted to believe that it was Snape's fault. He didn't care > what DD was telling him. Finwitch: Considering that Snape told the Black Sisters he had given Voldemort information that led to Sirius' death as well as that of Emmeline Vance... he might have lied about nearly all else, but NOT on that. Harry's instinct proved right in this case. Dumbledore believed Kreacher did it by telling one of these Black Sisters about Sirius' relationship to Harry and yet so that Kreacher was unable to betray them totally... (But - there was no such restrictions on Snape - apart from his not being the Secret Keeper - and the person Kreacher had supposedly been conversing with, was sitting there in that very room) - so um - I don't think Harry was all *that* wrong, after all... I'd say that Snape framed Kreacher - even as Tom Riddle framed Morfin. Finwitch From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Aug 26 19:29:10 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:29:10 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence...) In-Reply-To: <002501c5a96b$ddda1920$3762d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138821 > Merrylinks > >>Dumbledore brandished his wand in one, long, fluid movement -- the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke; the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass -- phoenixgod2000: Interesting. Although from the description of the Snake blowing upwards and the water flowing upwards I think an arguement could be made that it was the same effect happening in multiple locations at the same time. > Matt: > >>We know (at least Peter doesn't deny it) that he "blew apart the street with the wand behind his back." We don't know whether Peter cut off his finger magically, but it seems likely (otherwise was he manipulating both a wand *and* a knife with the hand behind his back?). Both spells most have been non-verbal, since all the witnesses heard was Peter's denunciation of Sirius (which also gives credenc to the idea that one can perform a non-verbal spell even while shouting something else). I think you are assuming certain facts. We don't know when wormtail cut off his finger. He could have blasted the street, turned into rat and slipped away to chew off his finger later. Or he could have used his wand to cut off his finger at a later point. IIRC, the finger wasn't discovered until the aurors went over the scene later. There was plenty of time for Petrigrew to do everything without having done all of it at once. And if you're right and he did he is a far better wizard than anyone ever gave him credit for. phoenixgod2000 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 19:46:08 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:46:08 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138822 > > > > Alla: > > > > Erm... That is not what I said. " Snape killing Dumbledore equals > > Snape hurting his soul" does not imply that Snape should let other > > people die. > > > > It only implies that Snape should not kill Dumbledore, IMO. > > Hickengruendler: > > However, what other choice did Snape have? Supposing he had not > killed Dumbledore, do you think all those other characters had > survived? In the end, not killing Dumbledore would IMO have been > equivalent with deciding to let more people die. Alla: Actually, I think we do NOT know that. During the whole HBP we saw how powerful Snape was since he was in school. I think that it is a possibility that if Snape attacked AT LEAST De who surrounded DD, it may have bought Albus a chance to do something - at least summon Fawkes for help. Do I know that for certain? Surely I don't , but neither do I know for sure that Dumbledore was a goner in this scene from the beginning and I think Snape indeed owed Dumbledore to try and help him for all Albus did for him. Hickengruendler: Because Dumbledore > would have died either by the Potion or through the hands of the > other Death Eaters anyway. Alla: Well, as I said above my main disagreement is that we do not know for sure that Albus would have died anyway. I do not know that the choice Snape was making was between saving Dumbledore's life and saving other students' life ( Draco, Harry, whoever). Right now to me it is absolutely equal possibility that choice Snape was making was between saving Albus and saving his own skin. IF this possibility is correct, I absolutely despise what Snape chose. Hickengruendler: And then Snape, the one who urged the > other DEs to flee the scene, would have died as well for not > fulfilling the vow. Alla: IF there was a slightest possibility that Albus could have survived, then yes, I think that Snape should have tried. I mean, Snape is the one , IMO< who got himself into the taking vow and it would have been nice if he took a responsibility for that. Hickengueldler: And if there was noone to make them leave, they > could have done much more harm than they already did, to Harry and to > the other Hogwarts inhabitants, at least to those who were fighting. Alla: Sure, it is a possibility, or there is a possibility that Snape takes out a few, Albus does something and school is saved. Hickengruedler: > There was no hope for Dumbledore in this scene, and I think both > Snape and Dumbledore knew this. Alla: But I don't know that. :-) Sorry. Hicklengruendler: And if killing really splits the soul > and Snape was acting on Dumbledore's wishes, than Snape made in fact > a greater sacrifice than Dumbledore. On the other hand, this > selflessness does not fit his character at all. Alla: Absolutely, IF Snape was acting on Dumbledore wishes. And I wholeheartedly agree with you - right now I cannot come up with ANY Snape's action in the book, where he was acting selflessly. I mean you can interpret some of them as such, but on each and every of them, selfish motivation could be given to, IMO. Zgirnius: > If you prefer an ethical worldview in which only adherence to a small > number of clearly stated ethical principles matters, regardless of the > likely consequences of one's actions to others or to oneself, you are > right. The ethical choice for Snape is to try as you suggest, and risk > failure with the consequences outlined above. However, if you prefer a > view of ethics which considers intentions and outcomes, the choice to > kill Dumbledore in order to save others (and others DD cares about, I > might add), *especially* since the death of Dumbledore might result > from *either* choice, can be defended. Alla: Actually to me "ethical principle" "do not kill", (unless in self defense of course) is very important one and yes, in my view of ethics, it matters very much. I do like consider intentions and outcomes and that is why it is so very important to me that Snape would pay consequences for taking the UV in the first place which if I am very charitable, I look at as an enormous mistake and if I am not as 'deal with devil" If Snape took this Vow under duress, that would be different story, but so far I am inclined to agree with Neri - that Narcissa nicely worked her charm on him and all Snape supposed loyalty to Dumbledore went out of the window. ( JMO of course) I also do not believe that Snape took UV because he cared for Draco - because there was nothing to stop Snape from caring about Draco without taking Vow. He is his Head of the House after all. So, since I think that taking a vow was a very wrong thing to do, IMO, Snape had to do anything to correct this mistake. You would say he could not since he would die, right? Well, then my answer would be that Snape knew what the consequences would be for failure to carrying out the vow ( he does instruct Bella what to do - so he knew the mechanics, right?) and he got himself into it. Nobody should pay for his foolishness ( and of course it is my opinion only that he was foolish) not Dumbledore, not Harry, not everybody else. Snape made his choice - he took the UV earlier, so if consequences would have been for him to die on the Tower, I say he should have done it. As I said earlier - I believe that Snape is afraid of death and instead sent Dumbledore to his next great adventure. JMO, Alla From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 20:10:17 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:10:17 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle Goes Home In-Reply-To: <20050822055943.50482.qmail@web33506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138823 > Gopal: > Thats because Uncle Morfin shouts in parseltongue > "YOU, WHY ARE YOU HERE" assuming its Tom Riddle Sr. > Thats when Tom Riddle says "stop" in parseltongue. Finwitch: I also noticed that Morfin greeted *everyone* in Parseltongue, and spoke no word of any other language. I think that he never learned to speak English, particularly considering how the Gaunt family used it as first language. Merope, however, did *not* speak parseltongue - but she did carry the ability to her son... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 20:17:04 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:17:04 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: We don't know when wormtail > cut off his finger. He could have blasted the street, turned into rat > and slipped away to chew off his finger later... Finwitch: Sirius tells us when: just before he turned into a rat. (but definately not at the same time). I myself believe that the spell he used to blow up the street ALSO cut off his finger-- Someting that cut off his finger and went on to a gas pipe or something... He was holding his wand behind his back, remember? Finwitch From ibchawz at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 15:13:49 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:13:49 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138825 Ersatz Harry posted: JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. hg responded: Thanks for posting one of her quotes, but I've researched quite carefully, including the interviews, and I've taken them into account. Incidentally, that particular quote is in reference to Harry's grandparents, not Lily's, and is about him being alone. Slughorn being Harry's grandfather doesn't conflict with any of that. As far as I've seen, there's nothing that rules it out as a possibility. ibchawz replies: JKR said that Harry was "completely alone" and that Aunt Petunia was his only living family. I fail to understand what is abiguous about this. What is your logic for stating that your theory does not conflict with JKR's statement? In my mind, they are in direct conflict. If Slughorn, were Harry's grandfather, why didn't Dumbledore leave Harry at Slughorn's doorstep instead of the Dursley's? If Slughorn was Harry's grandfather, the same blood protection due to Lily's sacrifice for Harry would have been invoked. Actually, it would be more logical to leave Harry with Slughorn since he would have the benefit of growing up as a wizard. ibchawz From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 26 20:28:45 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:28:45 -0000 Subject: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138826 "colebiancardi" wrote: >The reason why DD didn't offer Snape the DADA job before >was that DD knew the post was cursed. We just discovered that in >HBP, but DD knew about this for a long time. > Hickengruendler: > But if this was true, it would be really awful from Dumbledore to hire > all those other people. Dumbledore had hired a new teacher each year > since Voldemort applied for the job. And the idea that "the epitome of > goodness" does not want to sacrifice Snape, but is perfectly ready to > get all those other people in danger does not sit well with me. Marika: What if the danger these people have to face comes from inside themselves? (Haven't seen this been discussed before, but I apologize if that is the case.) When JKR said that Dumbledore believed that the DADA job "might bring out the worst in Snape" (J.K. Rowling at the Royal Albert Hall, 26 June 2003), maybe it also meant that this is what the curse does. It brings out the worst in people - meaning everyone - not just Snape. In that case the answer would be to try and hire somebody who seems harmless (like Lockhart) or somebody whose dark sides you know about, and you belive that person in one way or an other is capable of handling this problem (like Lupin and his furry little problem). From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 26 20:43:01 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:43:01 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138827 > Alla: > > Actually, I think we do NOT know that. During the whole HBP we saw > how powerful Snape was since he was in school. I think that it is a > possibility that if Snape attacked AT LEAST De who surrounded DD, it > may have bought Albus a chance to do something - at least summon > Fawkes for help. Hickengruendler: You are right. Since Dumbledore managed to fight twelve Death Eaters, I guess it is possible that Snape, who seems to be pretty powerful as well, could manage to fight three or four of them at least for a short time. However, the question is, would he be able to do so, or would he drop dead the very first second he defended Dumbledore? But about summoning Fawkes: Does he need to be summoned? As far as I recall he appeared in CoS and OotP out of loyalty for Dumbledore and for Harry (because Harry showed loyalty for DD as well in the chamber). Neither Harry nor Dumbledore said anything to call him. And supposing Fawkes needs to be summoned, lets say by some inner thoughts, if Dumbledore was able to summon him while in battle with Voldemort at the end of book 5, than he surely had enough time to do so in HBP as well, before Snape appeared on the tower. After all, he had a conversation with Fenrir after he appeared on the tower. Surely he could have used some of this time to summon the Phoenix. IMO, as it currently seems (further explanations in book 7 are of course always possible), this is either a flint by JKR not to have Fawkes there, or Dumbledore did not want to have him there, because he did not want Fawkes' help at this point, for whichever reason. Alla: I mean, Snape is the one , IMO< who got himself into the taking vow > and it would have been nice if he took a responsibility for that. Hickengruendler: Oh yes, I agree. Even if it turned out that he acted on Dumbledore's order, he is partly to blame because he took the Vow. That's one reason, why I think he will die in book 7, as sort of poetic justice. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 26 20:45:34 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:45:34 -0400 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I Message-ID: <003301c5aa7f$1bbc2210$97c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138828 Jessica Bathurst > we never see him [Snape] come to > class unprepared, and he does try > to actually teach these kids potions. Eggplant: >>Not only does Snape abuse children to an almost criminal degree I don't think he's even very good at teaching his subject. When Harry makes a potion for the first time without Snape breathing down his neck in his OWL test he surprised himself at how well he does. CathyD: We just had this conversation on list, you should have read it. Snape, despite his teaching method, is actually a very good teacher in that he got at least 25% of his 40 fifth-year students to achieve an Outstanding OWL. How many of the other 30 achieved Outstanding and did not need to continue to NEWT level Potions is not said although I would imagine there were a few. How many, other than Harry and Ron, achieved Exceeds Expectations and may have been given the choice to continue in Slughorn's class but did not, is not known either. Nor how many passed with Acceptable but could not continue to NEWT a level class that required EE. Potions, as someone else said, doesn't appear to be a class you take just for the fun of it. If you don't need advanced level Potions for your career of choice then you wouldn't take that class. Who passed or failed obviously isn't important to the story or we would know, but to say Snape is a poor teacher certainly is not accurate, based on the numbers we know would have made it to Snape's NEWT class if he were still teaching Potions. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Aug 26 21:26:24 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:26:24 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" > wrote: > We don't know when wormtail > > cut off his finger. He could have blasted the street, turned into > rat > > and slipped away to chew off his finger later... > > Finwitch: > > Sirius tells us when: just before he turned into a rat. (but > definately not at the same time). I myself believe that the spell he > used to blow up the street ALSO cut off his finger-- Someting that > cut off his finger and went on to a gas pipe or something... He was > holding his wand behind his back, remember? > > Finwitch Your explanation works for me. Either way, he didn't cast two seperate spells at the same time. I just don't thinks it's possible, or if it is, not at a level required to kill a person. The concentration required for magic seems to be pretty extreme. I doubt a person can keep two seperate magical thoughts in his head Simultaneously to a degree necessary to produce an actual effect. sort of like telling someone 'don't think about Pink elephants while solving this calc problem.' (not a perfect example, but I think amusing nonetheless) phoenixgod2000 From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 21:44:20 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:44:20 -0000 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <4306E653.4030704@chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138830 Fabian: > I'm not sure I follow, they weren't the secret keepers in the book, but what if they were? Wouldn't that have been a much better situation than having to trust someone else? Finwitch: Dumbledore was never present at 12 Grimmauld Place so far as I know. I think the one person who *couldn't* be the Secret Keeper for the order was Sirius Black as the owner of the house (who also happened to be staying there). I think that James&Lily could NOT be their own Secret Keepers... It is, however, interesting that Dumbledore doubted whether the spell was still effective after the ownership of the house had passed from Sirius' hands... Perhaps the Fidelius Charm, in the same manner, was no longer effective as James died. If it is, I'd think it possible that Harry will be able to find it due to the Life-debt Wormtail owes him or something... Finwitch From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 22:04:07 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:04:07 -0000 Subject: Obsession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138831 > >>Jen Reese: > > After thinking about HBP as a whole, how it fits into the > > series, I realized one of the major themes is obsession. > > > >>SSSusan: > I agree with you that this obsession with Draco DID distract > Harry. > > OTOH, I have to wonder about this particular part of the > obsession "message." You're right that it distracted Harry, > slowed down the process DD was working on with Harry, but for once > it turned out Harry was RIGHT. So was it bad to have obsessed > about Draco? > Betsy Hp: This raises an interesting question (at least, IMO). Yes, Harry was right about Draco, but did his interest or obsession help anything at all? IOW, would anything have gone down differently if Harry *had not* been so obsessed with Draco? At the present it doesn't seem like Harry's suspicions and knowledge changed anything. Draco would still have brought Death Eaters into Hogwarts. Bill (who was there under Dumbledore's orders, I believe) would still have been attacked by Fenrir. Dumbledore would still have confronted Draco and been killed by Snape. The only things that would not have occured, at least as far as I can tell, would have been the times Harry confronted Draco: the train incident, the Apparation lesson, and the fight in the bathroom. Which leads to another question: Was there any benefit (or will there be any benefit) from those three confrontations? > >>SSSusan: > > Could it also be that DD was so focused/obsessed because he KNEW > time was short? We still can't agree around here on whether the > green goo was killing DD anyway, I know, but there are also > members who think that the ring hx damage was also slowly > weakening & perhaps killing DD. Did DD know that, green goo or > not, his days were numbered? Is that why he was so single- > mindedly focused on the horcruxes? Betsy Hp: That's what I think. I think Dumbledore spent the entire book dying and preparing for his death. It explains the feeling of hurry, hurry, hurry, Dumbledore consistently expressed. It explains why he put his most trusted spy in a position guaranteed to take him from his side (which in turn explains why it was so important Slughorn come back to Hogwarts). It explains why he had his "final words" with the Dursleys, setting Harry up for his final stay and getting a few things off his chest. And it also explains why Dumbledore felt the need to go after the horcrux in the cave that night, despite Harry's warning about Draco having succeeded at something dangerous. > >>Jen: > > You know, I just realized something--we didn't get our > > Dumbledore explanation at the end of HBP. Wah. > >>SSSusan: > Wah, indeed! :-( And we won't get one in Book 7 either. The most > we can hope for, I suppose, are bottled memories for the pensieve > or for portrait-talk, but it's not the same, is it? Betsy Hp: Maybe that will be the final sign of Harry's adulthood. He'll wrap it all up for us at the end of book 7, and then offer us a lemon drop. :) Betsy Hp From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 22:19:27 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:19:27 -0000 Subject: Horcruxtropic Harry (was Horcruxes anew) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138832 > Amiable Dorsai: > Thanks for the quote, I thought I remembered something like that. > It is tantalizing, isn't it? Neglecting your second possibility, > whether Harry's a Horcrux or not his connection to LV means that he > has a connection (of some sort) to chunks of Voldie's soul. That > may provide a solution to the problem of how in the world Harry is > going to find all the rest of the pieces. Hmmm. I like it. To support and expand this a bit, Harry had a "feeling" about the diary, then none about the locket, but the locket turned out to be a fake, so he wouldn't, would he? So we are left with Harry as a lifeform with a tropism for (Voldemort's) horcruxes. (Plants are "phototropic," meaning they "lean" in the direction of light.) Do we know of any other objects Harry has been strangely attracted to or fascinated by? Sandy aka msbeadsley, a lifeform with a tropism for books... From AllieS426 at aol.com Fri Aug 26 22:23:57 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:23:57 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mimbeltonia" wrote: > > > > The _reason_ why Harry has Lily's eyes is not and was never a > mystery - it is simply because he is her son. > > The _significance_ (to the plot!) of his eyes looking exactly like > his mother's is the effect looking into Harry's (Lily's) imploring > eyes has on Slughorn, whose favourite student she once were: He can > not resist, and Harry receives the vital information, the horcrux > memory. > > Isn't that just it?? > > > Mimbeltonia I don't know... I thought there would be some *magical* significance to it. Allie From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 22:31:13 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horcruxtropic Harry (was Horcruxes anew) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050826223113.77571.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138834 msbeadsley wrote: ...edited... Do we know of any other objects Harry has been strangely attracted to or fascinated by? Juli: Well, Harry was attracted to the veil in the DoM, almost hypnotized by it, maybe the arch/veil has something to do with the horcruxes. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 23:21:48 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:21:48 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138835 Betsy Hp: Congratulations on a wicked cool name. And in celebration, do you mind if I take a couple of practice shots at the good ship ACID POPS? > >>Neri: > > It is now obvious to me that it is Narcissa that Snape has always > loved, not Lily. Lets consider the evidence: > 1. In her greatest need, Narcissa comes to Snape for help. What > arguments does she use to convince him? > Betsy Hp: I absolutely agree with you here, Neri. Narcissa proves to us that Draco's sense of the drama comes to him honestly. [Though I will say that I don't think her tears were *totally* calculated. For one, she slops her drink down her front. (HBP scholastic p.35) Now, I'm no Southern Belle (absolute experts on the use of histrionics against the male of the species, IMO) but I've known a few and a major rule of thumb is when you cry and fall to pieces, you do so *gracefully*. Mascara can be wiped away, the wine stain is there to stay. But that's really neither here nor there for this argument, I think. ] > >>Neri: > 2. And how does Snape acts in response? > > ******************************************************************* > HBP, Ch. 2: > > Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as > though they were indecent, but he could not pretend not to hear > her. > > > Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. > Looking down into her tearstained face, > > > Snape stooped, seized her by the arms, lifted her up, and steered > her > back onto the sofa. > > > Snape lowered himself so that he was kneeling opposite Narcissa. > Beneath Bellatrix's astonished gaze, they grasped right hands. > >******************************************************************** Betsy Hp: I kept this whole bit in because this is where I think your ship starts to pop some seams. Because in each example (except the last which is a different bird all together, I think) Snape moves *away* from Narcissa. He turns *away* from her tears. He *removes* her from his chest. He pulls her *up off the floor* from her position at his feet. Nowhere do I see any evidence that Snape enjoyed Narcissa falling all over him. If he did have a hidden, secret passion for her, shouldn't he have clutched her to his manly chest? Stared wretchedly at her falling tears? Gotten at least a tiny charge out of having her kneeling before him? Instead Snape seems, at most, embarrassed by the level of Narcissa's reactions. > >>Neri: > Huh? Do you believe this? Do you remember Snape *ever* treating > *anybody* else gently and kindly, in the whole series? Betsy Hp: We've never seen him outside of Harry's presence before. Though he *does* show a great deal of care, IMO, when he heals Draco from the Sectumsempra. He struck me as downright maternal in that scene. > >>Neri: > > He could have easily ushered Narcissa out with some vague promises > that he'll do what he can. But no, he makes her an Unbreakable > Vow. The BIG sacrifice. Why? Betsy Hp: That's the big question, isn't it? But I have a hard time buying the idea that Snape made the decision in a fit of passion. His face went "blank" when Narcissa made the request. To my mind that speaks to cool calculation (he was clear enough to hide his thoughts) rather than heated emotion. > >>Neri: > > Snape knew the full implications of the terrible choice he was > making. Even Bella was speechless. So was I. Betsy Hp: Which is another reason that I think there was a calculated reason Snape decided to make the Vow. As a double agent Snape was interested in keeping himself as free to move about as possible. This Vow *restrained* him. It was too huge a decision for Snape to make solely on the attractiveness of the person asking him. And JKR makes sure to show him *thinking* before he says yes. > >>Neri: > You won't find in his words even a hint for some good word, some > whiff of tender emotion for Lucius. He won't say it explicitly in > front of Narcissa, but it's obvious from his comments to Bella > that he despises the man. Betsy Hp: Really? I didn't get that read at all. Snape certainly seemed to hold *Bellatrix* in contempt. But I didn't see anything that pointed to Snape disliking Lucius. Sure, he agreed with Narcissa that Voldemort was sending her son off to die to punish Lucius, but he didn't take any kind of pot-shots at Lucius that I noticed anyway. Actually, when he says that Lucius was "supposed to be in charge" (ibid p.34) it read to me like Snape was taking a backhanded shot at Bellatrix there. > >>Neri: > 7. What do we know about Snape's character? The man seems to be > obsessed with power, status and respect. It's always "I'm the > Potions master in this school", "I will not be talked to like > that!" "You will address me as sir", "Yes Potter, this is *my* > job". > Betsy Hp: Considering how disrespectful Harry is of Snape (more so than to any other adult around him - rightly or wrongly) it's not surprising Snape is forced to say such things. I do not think it follows that Snape is somehow "obsessed with power, status and respect". Actually, I've never gotten that particular argument. And especially after learning that he still lives in his muggle father's home I don't see how that argument can be sustained. > >>Neri: > > Instead of using his muggle father's name, young Severus chose the > maiden name of his pureblood mother for his self-invented nickname. Betsy Hp: First of all, who knew that Snape's nickname was the half-blood Prince? Lupin seemed totally unaware. Second of all, if Mrs. Black called someone a half-blood *anything* do you really think she'd have meant it as a complement? I certainly don't. So it doesn't follow that those who think like her (the Black sisters, Lucius, etc.) would have a different meaning when they spoke that particular racial slur. (And racial slur it was, to folks like Mrs. Black.) And third of all, why do you think the nickname was self-invented? > >>Neri: > And this name just happened to be "Prince". Betsy Hp: Exactly. Pure chance. He could have been the "half-blood Ferguson". > >>Neri: > Yep, I believe our poor Severus is obsessed with pureblood > aristocracy. He despises them, oh yes, for being so incapable and > for thinking that their ancestry makes them better, but what he > wants more than anything is to be an aristocrat himself, more > noble and rich and powerful than his fellows DEs. > Betsy Hp: First of all, there is no wizard nobility. That gets established early on in the HBP. Second of all, if Snape is so interested in becoming an aristocrat why is he still living in the working class neighborhood of his childhood? He's a single guy (as far as we know) with no notable drains on his funds. Couldn't he have found an apartment in more swanky surroundings? A slightly better wardrobe? Shampoo? Seriously, if anyone seems *less* concerned with rank it's Severus Snape. > >>Neri: > > Is JKR going to play on the S/N ship in Book 7? I'm not sure. Maybe > it's not that important for the plot as a whole. It could be that > JKR will keep it in the level of some dropped hints for grownups to > notice, while her younger readers won't care much about characters' > motives. But I think the hints are most definitely there. Betsy Hp: This is the weakest part of ACID POPS, IMO. Because I see little plot reason for Snape to be madly in love with Narcissa. It seems to add more confusion to the plot than any sort of clarity, to my mind. And with only one book remaining I think JKR is going for clarity. LOLLIPOPS, on the other hand, provides a possible motive for Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with Dumbledore. (Something all readers, I think, are desperate to hear about.) And it's bangy, especially from Harry's POV. So, if there's to be any sort of ship for our Severus, I think the good ship LOLLIPOPS is the one to beat. Betsy Hp From lolita_ns at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 22:47:51 2005 From: lolita_ns at yahoo.com (lolita_ns) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:47:51 -0000 Subject: Where was Snape during the third task? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138836 Hi, I've been wondering for a while now about Snape's whereabouts during the third task of the Triwizard tournament. He wasn't patrolling round the maze. Until HBP I assumed that he indeed *did* go to LV's reunion party, but I was clearly wrong. Any ideas? Cheers, Lolita. From redwooddawn at hotmail.com Fri Aug 26 17:52:00 2005 From: redwooddawn at hotmail.com (redwooddawn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:52:00 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138837 > Amontillada: > Slughorn is the first wizard we've met who remembers Lily not merely > *as* clearly, but even *more* clearly than he remembers James. He > thinks of Harry first as "Lily's son," while Sirius and Lupin, for > example, thought of him first as "James' son" (before they really knew > Harry as an individual). > > redwooddawn: For all of you who have discussed the Snape/Lily romantic possibilities, I think Harry having Lily's eyes would definitely be a constant and anguishing reminder to Snape of what he did towards causing Lily's death. Slughorn has made it clear that anyone who admired or loved Lily cannot help but be moved in seeing those eyes in her son. Has the list already discussed how those eyes could help Harry in his fight, or who else they could motivate to help Harry? redwooddawn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 21:27:49 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:27:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138838 Rebecca wrote: "We don't know that (Tom) was never cuddled, or pampered or played with. We know that he was raised in an orphanage and that the staff would have been over-worked and without much time to spend with any particular child. But we don't know that he 'never' received any 'nice' treatment." Del replies: I agree, and I do think that Tom did receive positive attention, at least at first. However, we do know two things: 1. He was a strange baby. We can suppose that this would have put off his caregivers somewhat. 2. He rarely cried. I assume that this means that he cried even less than those babies who don't cry much. Now, when a baby almost never cries, that's often a big warning signal that something is very wrong with him. Healthy babies often cry, because crying is the only way they can ask for whatever they need or desire. Consequently, not crying is the worst thing a "special needs" baby could do, because overworked people are naturally inclined to take less care of a baby who doesn't cry (especially if this baby is a bit "strange") simply because they assume that if he doesn't cry, that's because he doesn't need anything, which couldn't be less true. It's a vicious circle, one I think Tom fell into very quickly in his infancy. Rebecca wrote: "I can only conclude that some of it must have been nice, simply because I cannot comprehend how anyone could spend time with a small baby and not be tender with them." Del replies: Good for you if you can't imagine it. I can, though. It does happen, all the time, all over the world. There are many people right now in the world torturing babies in one way or another. Now don't get me wrong, I'm *in no way* saying that the people at the orphanage tortured Tom, they really don't strike me as being that kind of people. I just think that, as you said, they were probably overworked, and also that they were put off by Tom's abnormal reactions and that they didn't take as much care of him as the others simply because he didn't *ask* for it by crying. No criminal activities, no nasty thoughts, no unkind behaviours on the part of the staff, just a non-realisation of what was going on and what was needed. Rebecca wrote: "I still maintain that we don't know that TR's treatment was any worse than harry's; for all we know it may have been substantially better. OK, Harry got 14 months of pure love, but then nothing. TR likely did get (albeit smaller amounts) of positive treatment over a much longer period of time." Del replies: Unfortunately, those first months of life are *absolutely crucial* in the development of a human being. That's when bonding takes place. If bonding fails to take place, the person is going to have *huge* troubles interacting normally with other people, *throughout their life*. Harry bonded with his parents, he learned (even though unconsciously) what love and attachment are, what they feel like, that they are an integral part of life, and that he is entitled to them. But Tom never learned that. He failed to bond, and as a consequence he failed to learn to love and be loved, and all those little bits of positive treatments he received through the years that you mentioned, were rendered null and void of any meaning because Tom was simply *incapable* of absorbing them. Remember the most shocking thing (IMO) that JKR ever said in an interview about Tom: he never loved. You've said that you can't imagine someone taking care of a baby and not being tender with them. Can you imagine a kid *never* loving *anyone*? Can you imagine a 3- or 4-year-old little boy not "falling in love" with the nice nurse who said a nice thing to him or the nice lady in the street who gave him a caress or a sweet because he was so cute? I can't. And yet that's what happened: Tom never "fell in love" with anyone, not even as a baby or a little kid, IOW way before he was able to control his emotions and reactions. Harry is a "normal" human being, but Tom isn't. He was born from a family with huge psychological and maybe even genetics issues, he was abandoned by both his father (during his fetal stage) and his mother right after his birth - two potentially *very* strong emotional traumas that shouldn't be underestimated. And he was not taken care of in a way that allowed him to bond and discover attachment. This is not necessarily the orphanage personnel's fault: I'm perfectly willing to believe that they treated Tom just as well as any other kid. Unfortunately, Tom was a "special needs" kid because of his horrific familial and emotional background and maybe even his own nature, who *could not* be raised in such an environment without being forever dramatically damaged. The wrong boy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Del From lynnheath at rogers.com Fri Aug 26 23:25:39 2005 From: lynnheath at rogers.com (heathrawlings) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:25:39 -0000 Subject: Possible book seven ending... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138839 Voldermort dies about three quarters of the way through the book, killed by Snape right after Harry has destroyed the last horcrux. Snape immediately takes up the Dark Lord's mantle and rallies the death eaters - their loyalty, based on fear and not trust would be even truer to a dark wizard powerful enough to kill the Dark Lord. The final battle is between Snape and the DE vs. HRH and the Order. The crucial blow for the forces of good is struck by Peter Pettigrew, who saves Harry's life and buys him the time to finally defeat the New Dark Lord. After just rereading GOF and HBP it just seems like Peter is portrayed as more pathetic and in need of redemption than Severus, whose every move seems pretty cold and calculated... Heathrawlings From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 12:34:44 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:34:44 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138840 > Hermionegallo: > I agree and I'll add (and get laughed off the board for it) that I > think Slughorn is Lily's grandfather. His eyes are green. mimbeltonia: Slughorn theory cool, but however, JKR states in the TLC/MN interview that: "(...) I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. " Mimbeltonia. From denya_2001 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 22:48:43 2005 From: denya_2001 at yahoo.com (also_september_19) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:48:43 -0000 Subject: Timing & the Dada position Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138841 I was just re-reading the first 3 chapters of HBP, and the timing of the UV struck me. All three chapters take place 2 weeks after the end of term. (It's just possible that 1 & 2 take place up to a week *after* 3, but certainly not before). At that time, Dumbledore has already injured his hand, recovered the ring horcrux, and made the decision to put Snape in the Dada position (as he's inviting Slughorn back), thus guaranteeing that Snape will leave Hogwarts at some point in the coming year. That timing seems to limit the options considerably vis-?-vis Snape being fooled into, or tricked into, or beguiled-by-blue-eyes into the UV. Dumbledore had *already* decided that this was to be Snape's last year. I can't imagine Dumbledore giving the position to Snape without telling him the consequence ? that would be too painfully dishonest ? so Dumbledore and Snape have some kind of plan together At The Time The UV was made ? a plan that would result in Snape leaving Hogwarts. (By the way, I think it's fairly clear that the reason Dumbledore has not given Snape the position before, is not because he doesn't trust him, but because he doesn't want to lose him. And the Dada teacher *must* go at ? or before ? the end of the year.) The timing of those chapters is definitely clear. The same `chilly mist' that presses at the 10 Downing, presses against Cissy (grin) and Bella (page 25 UK edition). And Dumbledore comes to rescue Harry from the Dursley's after "a mere fortnight of their company." (page 47 UK edition) What follows is guesswork. Does it seem too much of a stretch that whatever plan they came up with was at the same time as Dumbledore's injury? Is the injury in fact fatal? (Though I must say Slughorn's fairly casual reaction speaks against that). If not, what else about recovering and destroying that horcrux, at the cost of his right hand, would make Dumbledore set the chess pieces so that Snape would have to leave Hogwarts? I don't have the answer to that (& it's driving me a bit crazy ) But I do think that given that Snape & Dumbledore are already in cahoots, so to speak, the chances of Snape not realizing what he was agreeing to is slim I read the slight pulling away as an indication of how unpleasant this part of the agreement is. It is also clear that Snape is at least to some degree lying in that scene. He says: "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as a spy." (P. 39 UK edition) He knows that he will not stay past this semester. And it seems a small jump to make to the idea that it is Dumbledore who `intends him to do it in the end' But why? At first reading I thought perhaps there were two plans One, he seems to send Harry secretly (in his invisibility cloak) to get Severus, presumably to be healed. But since the DE's beat him to it ? he would just have to die then. But many of your collective objections to `murder' seem absolutely right. Dumbledore could not ask Snape to `murder' him. I also think Dumbledore's disregard for all Harry's concerns about Malfoy and Snape and the Room of Requirement, indicate that Dumbledore already knew what was going on. At least in broad outline. (Obviously not about the vanishing cabinet specifically ). But I believe him when he says that he knew about Malfoy's determined attempts to kill him and knew that Malfoy was reporting directly to Voldemort. He wasn't interested because he wasn't surprised ? it was all part of chess game he had in play. (In fact, he snaps at Harry at some point ? Don't you think I might know a little more about it than you - sorry, don't remember where that quote is exactly). I believe that the UV binds him to Dumbledore's plan ? and that he doesn't like it. But I don't really understand why ? plot-wise in the book, or narratively in the series. In any case, that's enough out of me I haven't posted before because I don't really have the time to follow up on everything But the timing of the first three chapters struck me as important. Denya (Also-September 19th) From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 00:49:01 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy L) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:49:01 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "redwooddawn" wrote: > redwooddawn: > > For all of you who have discussed the Snape/Lily romantic > possibilities, I think Harry having Lily's eyes would definitely be a > constant and anguishing reminder to Snape of what he did towards > causing Lily's death. Slughorn has made it clear that anyone who > admired or loved Lily cannot help but be moved in seeing those eyes > in her son. Has the list already discussed how those eyes could help > Harry in his fight, or who else they could motivate to help Harry? > --------------------------------------- I had an idea that Snape hated Harry from the get-go not only because he hated James, but because every time he looked at Harry, he saw Lily's eyes. I get a hint from HBP that there was more to Snape and Lily than simply being classmates. For instance, Lily was good at potions. Could she and Snape have studied together, with Snape secretly having feelings for her that she could not reciprocate? (I think that has been mentioned before (?). Lily was good at charms. Could she have put a charm on Harry that saved him from Voldemort, the catalyst putting it into action being her death, and the subsequent blood-protection? The fact that she died for Harry may have touched Snape in a negative way? So that, when he looks at Harry, he sees Lily, sees her sacrifice, resents Harry for that, and to make matters worse, Harry was the son of the man who Lily loved. I think whatever the situation was between Lily and Snape, the focus on Harry's eyes has something to do with it. Cindy (aoibhneach1) From lealess at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 01:23:21 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:23:21 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138843 It occurred to me that the Unbreakable Vow might function separate from the will of the person making the vow, i.e., that taking the Vow sets a certain course of action in motion. This would be similar to firing a gun at someone: even if the person firing the gun changes his mind after firing it, there is no way he can alter the course of the bullet. So, when Snape promised to fulfill the third part of Draco's task upon Draco's failure, the bullet left the gun and Dumbledore was effectively dead, either at Snape's hand or at Draco's, unless both of them were eliminated. The Vow itself would eliminate further choice on Snape's part, even if he did not know what he was vowing to do. The Vow would assume agency, acting as a sort of Imperius Curse, supplanting the will of the person who made it. Possible? lealess From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Aug 27 01:52:54 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:52:54 -0000 Subject: Horcruxtropic Harry (was Horcruxes anew) In-Reply-To: <20050826223113.77571.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > msbeadsley wrote: > ...edited... > > Do we know of any other objects Harry has been strangely attracted to or fascinated by? > The Mirror of Erised. While it can be argued that many people would be attracted to that mirror, Ron was not. After the first time he saw it, he begged Harry not to go back because something about it didn't feel right. Allie (rereading Sorcerer's Stone :) ) From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 02:06:28 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:06:28 -0000 Subject: Horcruxtropic Harry (was Horcruxes anew) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > > msbeadsley wrote: > > ...edited... > > > > Do we know of any other objects Harry has been strangely attracted to > or fascinated by? > > > > The Mirror of Erised. Doddie here: Well now you really have me wondering if Harry & Co. will return to Hogwarts to find the final Horcrux by standing in front of the Mirror of Erised...or how to destroy a horcrux, or how to destroy Voldemort.(would be interesting if he only saw himself) Also I'm wondering if a horcrux can be destroyed by tossing/banishing it through the veil! Doddie (who is back to pondering yet again) From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Aug 27 02:12:35 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:12:35 -0000 Subject: "if I were an evil overlord" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138846 On a topic completely unrelated to Horcruxes, Lily's eyes, and whether Snape is ESE, ESG, or OFH, is anyone familiar with "When I become an evil overlord"? The idea is that all bad guys attempting to take over the universe make the same mistakes when trying to defeat the hero. One of the biggies is TALKING TOO MUCH, thereby giving the hero time to escape. At the end of GoF, when Voldemort is talking to his circle of loyal death eaters, he's going on and on and on about exactly how he came back to power and how he intends to kill Harry. Just like every other failed Evil Overlord. I ran across this website again today and it's just hysterical: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html Many apply to Voldemort. (Am I allowed to post links here? I think I've seen links before...) Allie From kjones at telus.net Sat Aug 27 02:27:43 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:27:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why I'm loathe to believe that Snape is evil, evil, evil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430FCF9F.4040808@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 138847 hickengruendler wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" > wrote: > The reason why DD didn't offer Snape the DADA job before > > was that DD knew the post was cursed. We just discovered that in > HBP, > > but DD knew about this for a long time. > > Hickengruendler: > > But if this was true, it would be really awful from Dumbledore to hire > all those other people. Dumbledore had hired a new teacher each year > since Voldemort applied for the job. And the idea that "the epitome of > goodness" does not want to sacrifice Snape, but is perfectly ready to > get all those other people in danger does not sit well with me. KJ writes: There was a reason that Dumbledore said that "it wouldn't be good for him" to get the DADA position. Everyone assumed that it meant that he might be drawn back to the dark. I think Dumbledore chooses all his teachers for a reason. Flitwick, because he is a half-blood, Hagrid, as a half-blood, Snape as an ex-deatheater, Lupin as a half-werewolf. I wonder why McGonnagal is there. I'll bet there is a reason. Perhaps she is the teacher that is married and she is also being protected. I have said since CoS that Dumbledore is not just a sweet little old man and I'll bet that JKR said he was the epitome of goodness with her tongue in her cheek. Noone is all good or all bad. KJ From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 02:39:45 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where was Snape during the third task? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050827023946.55025.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138848 Lolita: Hi, I've been wondering for a while now about Snape's whereabouts during the third task of the Triwizard tournament. He wasn't patrolling round the maze. Until HBP I assumed that he indeed *did* go to LV's reunion party, but I was clearly wrong. Juli: I've been looking in GoF for any hints of where Snape could have been. "We are going to be patrolling the outside of the maze," said Professor McGonagall to the champions. "If you get into difficulty, and wish to be rescued, send red sparks into the air, and one of us will come and get you, do you understand?" (GoF Ch 31 The Third Task). I asume that all the teachers were patrolling. The next time we see Snape is in Crouch!Moody's office: "Stupefy!" There was a blinding flash of red light, and with a great splintering and crashing, the door of Moody's office was blasted apart - Moody was thrown backward onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody's face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape, and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass. (Ch 31 GoF) My guess is that he was all along in the maze with the other teachers, then when "Moody" took Harry to his office, Dumbledore asked McGonagall and Snape to follow him. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 03:42:35 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 03:42:35 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138849 Lolita: >And it seems to me that JK hasn't given us any explanation of what >the Dark Arts actually are. The explanations are different from one >book to another. Either she is going to thoroughly explain everything >in Book 7, or she is far less skillful a writer than I first thought >she was. I am reluctant to admit that I fear the latter might be >closer to truth. Ceridwen: I am terrified that it will turn out to be the truth. She was writing for children/young adults, not for adults. Unless she's got Trelawney hogtied in her home making predictions, she couldn't have known what would happen with her creation. She continues to say that she's got it all mapped out, and even has the final chapter written. Even though her writing has changed over the years. She keeps the chapter put aside to be inserted into the last book no matter what. I think that explains any plot holes people might see. It could even explain the depth we're all reading into the characters and the plot (s). We're seeing depth where there is only inconsistency. She has one book to go, according to all the interviews. Seven years of school, seven books. And there are all sorts of things to tie up. Snape is only one mystery or plot device, depending on your outlook. Can she convincingly show us either ESE! or ESG! Snape beyond all doubt while covering everything else, including a very late start at a quest? Since it's late and I don't have all that good a judgement right now, I'll continue. I do take some exception to the somewhat cavalier way she makes remarks in her interviews. People *like* Snape? How could they? While admitting that he's a 'gift of a character' herself. IMO, saying that it's odd, or whatever the exact wording was, that people like Snape, demeans the ones who do. I could be wrong. As I said, it's late. But it also shows that she seems to think he's just badbadbad and might not see the depth we all have found. Maybe she didn't put it in at all. Maybe this is just a basic kids' story, where the wicked, ugly old witch is really a wicked, ugly old witch who means to stick our heroes into an oven and cook them. One thing that makes me think she's going against that is, seven books, with quite a lot of detail, little puzzles, math horrors (I can sympathize, I stink at math, too), and so on, instead of the quick glosses of the Hansel and Gretel variety. She also likes being sly or coy with her information ('Good guess') or counselling us to wait and see, or the odd statement to someone pre-HBP, to 'read book 7'. I'm up and down any more on it. I think I'll stop paying attention to JKR's interviews. I like the idea of a character who is ugly and mean, the stereotypical bad guy or lout, not being the bad guy or lout. I do wonder sometimes if JKR has painted herself into a Fame and Glory corner. But, it's late. I see scarey things in the shadows at night anyway. And I know that most often, the tapping at the window is really the wind in the trees. Ceridwen, who might hear hobgoblins, or maybe it's the kid still using the cellphone. From djklaugh at comcast.net Sat Aug 27 04:23:26 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:23:26 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I In-Reply-To: <003301c5aa7f$1bbc2210$97c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138850 : > Jessica Bathurst > > we never see him [Snape] come to > > class unprepared, and he does try > > to actually teach these kids potions. > > Eggplant: > >>Not only does Snape abuse children to an almost criminal degree I > don't think he's even very good at teaching his subject. When Harry > makes a potion for the first time without Snape breathing down his > neck in his OWL test he surprised himself at how well he does. > > CathyD: > We just had this conversation on list, you should have read it. Snape, despite his teaching method, is actually a very good teacher in that he got at least 25% of his 40 fifth-year students to achieve an Outstanding OWL. How many of the other 30 achieved Outstanding and did not need to continue to NEWT level Potions is not said although I would imagine there were a few. How many, other than Harry and Ron, achieved Exceeds Expectations and may have been given the choice to continue in Slughorn's class but did not, is not known either. Nor how many passed with Acceptable but could not continue to NEWT a level class that required EE. Potions, as someone else said, doesn't appear to be a class you take just for the fun of it. If you don't need advanced level Potions for your career of choice then you wouldn't take that class. Who passed or failed obviously isn't important to the story or we would know, but to say Snape is a poor teacher certainly is not accurate, based on the numbers we know would have made it to Snape's NEWT class if he were still teaching Potions. Deb adds: We also never - not once in 6 books - hear from Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff about Snape's teaching abilities or teaching style! Yet 4 Ravenclaws and one Hufflepuff make it into NEWTs Potions. I seriously doubt that, had Snape continued to teach Potions, he would have had only Hermione and a couple of Slytherins in his class. Perhaps he is not as surly and caustic with other students... Also consider Fred and George ... given their incredible abilities to create inovative potions -think of the "thick yellow paste" that Fred gives Hermione to heal her black eye and the love potions and all the items in the Skiving Snack Boxes - I'll bet they were taking NEWTs Potions before they left Hogwarts which means (by extrapolation) that they got Os on their Potions OWLS in order to be able to take NEWTs with Snape! The only thing I can remember them saying about Snape is that he tends to get nasty if told off... And then there's Bill, Charlie, and Percy who each got so many OWLs and NEWTs ... they were all at Hogwarts taking Potions from Snape. Deb From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 04:49:14 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:49:14 -0000 Subject: "Spinner's End," a canon-based interpretation (Wa: Snape did kill DD with AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138851 "justcarol67" wrote: > "Silly" is your own opinion, which > you are of course entitled to Thanks, and you are entitled to my opinion too. > but it does not in any way disprove the > theories you have listed because it is > not the sort of opinion that can be > supported by canon. My cannon evidence is that the past 6 books have had small and few plot holes, have been extremely well plotted, and have been mercifully free of the idiot plot syndrome where all problems could be solved if just a few of the characters did the easy and obvious thing. JKR is a genius so maybe she can find a good Snape plot that actually works, I doubt it but maybe. However a book based on any good Snape theory I've read in this or any other group would be a train wreck. > To begin with, do you agree, based > on what we know of him from all six > books, that Snape is capable of deception? Yes I agree, and blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower I think you might even consider the possibility that I agree even more than you do. > It is probably best not to take anything > Snape says here at face value But one thing we must take at face value, his Unbreakable vows because if he doesn't mean those he's dead meat. > We need not, for example, take at > face value Snape's statement that > he didn't realize that Voldemort > was inside Quirrell's head. I agree completely, I think he knew from day one that Voldemort had possessed Quirrell, but of course he never told Dumbledore, or Voldemort. > Given that deception is a necessary > skill for a double agent and that > Snape is an accomplished actor > (as even Harry admits), he may be > bluffing when he says that he knows > what the Dark Lord wants Draco to do. So in the next book you think we will discover that a fiendishly clever very experienced double (or triple) agent will cheerfully agree to make an Unbreakable Vow without the slightest idea what he was vowing to do. Well, JKR can do anything she wants in the next book so I can never prove it's imposable, but I think I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it's silly. > A lot of us have speculated as to why > the highly intelligent, logical Snape > (a point I believe you concede) would > agree to an Unbreakable Vow I can only think of 3 explanations and only 2 of them could produce a good book: 1) Snape is not nearly as intelligent as you and I had thought he was; in fact he's dumb as dirt. 2) Snape made the vow to get Bellatrix off his back and as he was only vowing to do what he intended to do anyway the vow cost him little. 3) Snape had already made the same Unbreakable Vows to Voldemort so making them again cost him absolutely nothing. Eggplant From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 05:26:18 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:26:18 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's t In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138852 > Your explanation works for me. Either way, he didn't cast two > seperate spells at the same time. I just don't thinks it's possible, > or if it is, not at a level required to kill a person. Valky: Reread the battle in the MOM, Voldemort and Dumbledore are doing it strike for stirke. > Thebconcentration required for magic seems to be pretty extreme. I > doubt a person can keep two seperate magical thoughts in his head > Simultaneously to a degree necessary to produce an actual effect. > sort of like telling someone 'don't think about Pink elephants while > solving this calc problem.' (not a perfect example, but I think > amusing nonetheless) > > phoenixgod2000 Valky: Amusing yes LOL :D But not canon I'm afraid Phoenixgod :P "Another jet of green light flew from behind thw silver shield. This time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces, but before the fragments had even hit the floor, Dumbledore had drawn back his wand and waved it as though brandishing a whip. A long thin flame flew from the tip; it wrapped itself around Voldmeort shield and all. For a moment it seemed Dumbledore had won but then the feiry rope became a serpent, which relinquished it's hold on Voldemort at once and turned, hissing furiously, to face Dumbledore. Voldemort vanished; the snake reared from the floor, ready to strike - There was a burst of flame in midair above Dumbledore just as Voldemort reappeared, standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool...." ".. 'Look out' Harry yelled " [NB:immediately as Voldemort appeared] "But even as he shouted, another jet of green light flew at Dumbledore from Voldemorts wand and the snake struck -" "Dumbledore brandished his wand in one long, fluid movement - the snke, which had been an instant from sinking it's gangs into him, flew high into the air and vnished in a wisp of dark smoke; and the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass." *All from OOtP - The only one he ever feared. Whether you think they are so fast it looks, to Harry, like they're doing them all at once, or they simply are. Simultaneously casting is OKay in canon. IMO it looks like Voldie isn't nearly as good as DD at it, but since its Dumbledore's plan that this canon needs to go to proving it works for me. Valky From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 27 06:56:02 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:56:02 -0000 Subject: Are you Pottertropic? (was Horcruxtropic Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > > msbeadsley wrote: > > ...edited... > > > > Do we know of any other objects Harry has been strangely attracted to > or fascinated by? Allie: > The Mirror of Erised. While it can be argued that many people would be > attracted to that mirror, Ron was not. After the first time he saw it, > he begged Harry not to go back because something about it didn't feel > right. Geoff: In respect of the Mirror, Dumbledore remarked: 'However, this mirror will give us neither knowledge or truth. Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it shows is real or even possible.' (Philosopher's Stone "The Mirror of Erised" p.157 UK edition) So Harry was not alone in being attracted. But, I would wager that there were many others, like Ron, who were not interested in the Mirror. Almost everything which might become obsessive has its fans and its detractors. After all, many contributors to this group are Pottertropic but there are many people of my acquaintance (including my wife) who are not interested at all. It's true of cricket, politics, pop music and romantic fiction.... Add your own choice to the selection. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 07:04:35 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:04:35 -0000 Subject: Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138854 > Rebecca: > But we don't know that, Sandy. We don't know that he was never > cuddled, or pampered or played with. We know that he was raised in > an orphanage and that the staff would have been over-worked and > without much time to spend with any particular child. But we don't > know that he 'never' received any 'nice' treatment. What we do know is that he was never *loved* (from the interview): http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. JKR says it in so many words. The other thing we know, from RL experts, is that occasional, or even frequent "nice treatment" by a variety of strangers is not sufficient to allow a child to grow into a normal human being. Things happen all over a baby's development from birth to three years old that, if missed, mean that child will never be "normal." Much of this development is in the brain. One of the things a baby either does or doesn't do in that time span is bond with one or more caregivers. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "been loved by" and "been able to bond with" are pretty synonymous. Many experts who study anti-social personalities and full-blown psychopaths (including serial killers) have found that most of them have the same sort of deprivation (failure to bond due to a number of factors which can even include illnesses in their first three years) in their history. (I'm no expert; I'm just a nerd who often reads experts.) > I can only conclude that some of it must have been nice, simply > because I cannot comprehend how anyone could spend time with a > small baby and not be tender with them. Me, too. Absolutely. (I do everything but drool back at them.) The timber of my voice changes involuntarily and...well, let me just say that I think babies rock! On the other hand...a cousin of mine gave birth out of wedlock at the age of seventeen to a gorgeous baby girl she then proceeded to feed, change, bathe, and clothe while consistently ignoring every single emotional overture the baby made. It got particularly gut-wrenching when the kid started toddling; she would literally beg (grabbing at Mommy's skirt as she went by, only to have Mommy pull away with the result the kid landed on hands and knees or diapered bottom on the floor), crying before she learned words, then "Mommy hug?" later, to no avail. I had to stop going over there or commit murder and/or kidnapping. I'd have gotten activist (and called someone) on my cousin except that I knew Grandma babysat five days a week and lavished physical and emotional affection on the baby while Mommy worked and that, all things considered, everyone was doing the best they could. There was no physical abuse or neglect; just emotional. That was thirty years and many thousands of dollars in therapy (for mother and daughter both, separately and together) ago... > However, neither could I comprehend how the Dursley's could fail to > be tender with a toddler - and JKR writes that they did fail. The Dursleys had Dudley to tenderize (sorry, couldn't resist). And they were afraid of Harry's parents' strangeness, and, by extension, Harry, before they ever met him. I am convinced that, while their *ability* to treat Harry so shabbily was reprehensible (and somewhat fear-induced), the *reason* (or part of the reason) the Dursleys deprived Harry of all but the minimum it took to maintain his physical self can be seen in a quote from PS/SS: "We swore when we took him in we'd put a stop to that rubbish," said Uncle Vernon, "Swore we'd stamp it out of him! Wizard indeed!" It seems to me that the Dursleys, not knowing how to go about "stamping" the propensity for magic out of Harry, proceeded to try to stamp out just about every bit of spirit, enthusiasm, initiative, curiosity, independence, or personality they perceived in him. By the time they knew they'd failed, the habit was well-ingrained, and besides, they were annoyed that they'd failed. > But, despite having already contradicted myself, I still maintain > that we don't know that TR's treatment was any worse than harry's; > for all we know it may have been substantially better. OK, Harry > got 14 months of pure love, but then nothing. TR likely did get > (albeit smaller amounts) of positive treatment over a much longer > period of time. We do know that Voldemort was never loved, while we know that Harry was loved so very much that his parents died for him; his mother laid down her life so thoroughly that Harry survived the unsurvivable. I'm betting she was a mother who didn't let Harry have a waking hour go by without a cuddle, and so *his* baby brain got to, put very simply, develop the ability to love because he experienced love. The point is that RL babies bond (develop the ability to love; join the human race) in part during the period of time we know Harry had two loving parents and Voldemort had no love (per JKR) at all. Sandy aka msbeadsley, done with this for now and inclined to suggest people go look up experts to argue with if they're so inclined From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 27 07:05:27 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:05:27 -0000 Subject: two weeks of replies, ctl-F for YOUR name or topic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138855 Vivian wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137647 : << I would talk to the twins. It seems like they know that school inside out. They know all of the passageways, everything. >> Nitpick: the Twins didn't know about the Chamber of Secrets and thought the Room of Requirement was only a small closet. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137682 : << We know that in Harry's 6th year, Slughorn avoids taking any DE-connected students into his club. I wonder about the Marauders' time. We think he had Snape in his club. Was he aware of which ones were connected, or was he not so particular then? >> Was Slughorn in HBP rejecting *all* DE connected students, or only students connected with DEs who had been caught? In the Marauders' time, we believe he had Regulus in his club, and Regulus became a DE. I think his reasoning was to reject students related to people who had been disgraced, such as by being sentenced to Azkaban. Marianne S wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137700 : << "Snape wiped the residue from Malfoy's face and repeated his spell. Now the wounds seemed to be knitting." I find [this] sentence in this quote interesting.... knitting.... didn't DD say (as a reason for his longish stay in Sluggie's bathroom while Sluggie and Harry spoke) that he liked Knitting Patterns? Just struck me as an interesting parallel ..... >> I admire your attentiveness to the text, that found the word 'knit' used in such separate places. Speaking of a wound, cut flesh, or broken bone 'knitting' is a normal terminology. www.dictionary.com found me the following: <
intransitive senses : to grow together Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, ? 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.>> So I suppose that DD's reference to Muggle *knitting* magazines, instead of e.g. Muggle gourmet magazines or such, *could* be a reference to uniting the good guys or uniting the Houses, in this chapter by recruiting Slughorn. CathyD wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137773 : << He will perform some small *heroic* act (curing Bill, saving Draco, saving any one member of the Order), and then he will die. >> I want (almost expect) Snape to die in the process of, and for the sake of, saving Harry's life from some damn-fool trap Harry has let himself get caught in. I want Snape to utter some viciously sarcastic and innately commanding last words, telling Potter that, as the only person who can vanquish Voldemort, it is very irresponsible of him to get himself killed while Voldemort is still a public danger, and ending something like: "Get the hell out, Potter. I would prefer to be spend the last moments of my life without the irritation of your company." If this occurs in the first half of book 7, it will be part of removing all Harry's support before the final confrontation with LV. Vivian wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137783 : << JKR has said that Snape is based on a teacher she once had. She also mentions that Snape is a sadistic teacher and that children can see right through this kind of teacher. I admit that I myself had a sadistic professor like this, so this may prejudice my point of view. (snip) She was a blood sucking, soul sucking dementor. And I'll never forget her. >> I wish you'd been in the many threads (over the YEARS!) in which several listies have insisted that Snape is a good teacher, some that they had had teachers like whom they hated at the time but came to love and respect when they realised how much they had learned in those classes, and at least one described herself as a Snape-like teacher. Kathryn Jones wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137894 : << Why did it take 1-2 months for Voldemort to attack the Potters before Peter was made Secretkeeper if they were not hiding? Were the Potters not told until a week before they died that Voldemort was after them? What was Voldemort doing to confirm which boy was the one he wanted? Why did he not make his move for 15 months after the boys were born? >> The Potters, at least, were already in hiding when Harry was born (according to the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview): http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/070 5-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm << JKR: At the time that they christened Harry, they were in hiding. This was not going to be a widely attended christening, because he was already in danger. So this is something they were going to do very quietly, with as few people as possible, that they wanted to make this commitment with Sirius. >> I suppose that they changed hiding places whenever one of DD's spies reported that LV had learned of the latest. I suppose they resorted to Fidelius when LV got much too quick at finding their hiding places. There was a spy in the Order for a year before Godric's Hollow, apparently Peter, who presumably was well placed to know where the Potters were hiding and pass on that information. Cathy D wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138178 : << If the secret was just James, Lily and Harry though, would the protection be broken with Harry still alive? Only JKR knows for certain but somehow Hagrid and Sirius got in when they shouldn't normally have been able to. >> I believe that at least Sirius and Dumbledore, probably Hagrid as well, WERE let in on the secret, without revealing that Peter was the Secret Keeper. OoP showed that the Secret can be revealed in a written note. So Peter could write the note in a disguised handwriting and send it to Dumbledore and then DD could pass it on to Hagrid. Peter could have shown Sirius the same note before he sent it, or just TOLD Sirius, as Sirius did know about the Secret Keeper switch. lazyvix3n wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137931 : << Fred, George, here's my new product and I'm hoping that you might be prepared to sell it in Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. It's a really useful item that can be used to protect wizards and witches from disarmament charms. This may look like an ordinary muggle-household piece of string, but tie this end to your belt, button, wrist, neck, ankle, friend or whatever and this end to your wand, Voila! You never need fear being disarmed again! >> Maybe it's been tried and discovered that any decent Expelliarmus will just break the string. (Altho' Ffred's http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138007 is funnier and just as likely.) Cathy D wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138699 : << It is interesting to note that Expelliarmus, which usually simply disarms the other person, acted very strangely when Snape used it on Lockhart in Duelling Club: "Both of them swung their wands up and over their shoulders. Snape cried: 'Expelliarmus!' There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: he flew backwards off the stage, smashed into the wall and slid down it to sprawl on the floor." (CoS pg 142 Can Ed) Extra powerful Expelliarmus or an extra spell? Only JKR knows for sure! ;-) >> PoA: ""Expelliarmus!" he yelled -- except that his wasn't the only voice that shouted. There was a blast that made the door rattle on its hinges; Snape was lifted off his feet and slammed into the wall, then slid down it to the floor, a trickle of blood oozing from under his hair. He had been knocked out. Harry looked around. Both Ron and Hermione had tried to disarm Snape at exactly the same moment." As Harry is the viewpoint character, we know that he didn't throw in an extra spell with his Expelliarmus, and I don't think Ron or Hermione did either. Betsy Hp wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137935 : << If Dumbledore didn't have a definite trust in Snape's overall goodness, (snip) I *really* doubt he'd have allowed him to be a teacher. (Not all Order members are teachers after all.) >> And not all teachers are Order members. I can't believe Dumbledore had a definite trust in Lockhart's overall goodness, as he knew about Lockhart's real line of work (Memory Charm: "Impaled on your own sword, Gilderoy?") Klodiana wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137960 : << I don't know if you noticed this but when Harry tries to find out if his dad is the HBP, Lupin tells him to check out how old the book was. The book was 50 years old, so Harry dismisses the possibility that it was James' or any other's who was around at his time. How come Snape is the owner of the book? Is it because he uses secondhand books (do we know that?)? Is it just an error or something else? >> I think it was just a red herring, with the explanation that he used second-hand books because he came from a low-income family, but it's nice to pretend that it was his mother's old textbook WITH his mother's old notes written in it, so he was just as much of a cheat using those notes as Harry was. Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138210 : << Unless [Percy's] letter to Ron was some in very secret code that no one has figured out, he was praising Umbridge. >> There's a letter in code very soon after that in that book -- when Harry writes to Sirius that Professor Umbridge is almost as nice as Sirius's mum. C S Wagon wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138651 : << Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters? Does any one have any theories? >> I believe that Voldemort gave them that name. One theory is he just wanted an impressively scary-sounding name. Another is that the name implies that the Death Eaters gain (extra magic power, extra years of life, something like that) by taking it from the people they kill. Another used to be that part of LV's recipe for immortality was that his Death Eaters had eaten his death, altho' it seems to me that they should have died as soon as they ate it, not still be hanging around alive. Fabian wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138774 : << About the diary horcrux, from what I understand the Basilisk killed Myrtle (since the last thing she saw was the basilisk's eyes). So how could this tear Tom Riddle's soul apart? >> Riddle was in that bathroom -- the reason Myrtle came out of her stall was that she heard a boy's voice and was going to tell him off for being in a girls' bathroom. Maybe he saw a witness (Myrtle), panicked, and command the basilisk to 'Sic her!'. From derek at rhinobunny.com Sat Aug 27 07:46:20 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:46:20 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138856 I've been re-reading the whole series recently (since finishing HBP), and a thought struck me. Please let me know if this has occurred to anyone else, or if I'm just overlooking something very obvious. In PS/SS, the professors set up the protections for the Stone at the beginning of the year. Hagrid obtained the stone before the start of term, and, by the opening feast, Dumbledore warns the students about the third-floor area, so Fluffy must already be up there. Hagrid provides Fluffy, Sprout the Devil's Snare, Flitwick the flying keys, McGonagall the chessboard, Snape the potions puzzle... ...and Dumbledore the Mirror of Erised. So if the Mirror of Erised has been guarding the Stone since the start of the year, down behind a gauntlet of traps, how is Harry able to stumble across it around Christmas time in an empty classroom? Am I missing something? (And on a lesser, possibly related, note... if the trap door Fluffy guards is on the third floor, then when the trio go through it, shouldn't they just end up on the second floor instead of deep below the castle?) - Derek From jen_kat_du at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 01:49:47 2005 From: jen_kat_du at yahoo.com (jen_kat_du) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:49:47 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138857 Mimbletonia wrote: > > The _reason_ why Harry has Lily's eyes is not and was never a > > mystery - it is simply because he is her son. Kris wrote: > Something I was thinking about when pondering the whole eyes > question... > > "The eyes are the window to the soul." > > So with Harry having Lily's eyes... are we seeing a clue to > something more about what is protecting Harry? Perhaps there is a > magical connection between Lily's soul through her sacrifice? Has > she passed her soul to him? JKR said in her one of her interviews that Harry having Lilly's eyes would have a particular importance by the end of the series. I reread SS the other day and I had forgotten that when he looks into the mirror of Erised that he sees all of his family, not just Lilly and James (movie contamination of my mind). It mentions all of the pairs of green eyes that he sees in his family. Just a thought, what color are Petunia's eyes? I bet they aren't green. I couldn't find a reference to it anywhere. Jen The biggest Harry Potter dork in Western North Carolina PS My local library won the first signed copy of HBP, Scholastic delievered it themselves! Nanny nanny boo boo! From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Aug 27 07:58:04 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:58:04 -0000 Subject: Slughorn/ knitting/ Christening/ Potions text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138858 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137682 : Catlady: > Was Slughorn in HBP rejecting *all* DE connected students, or only > students connected with DEs who had been caught? In the Marauders' > time, we believe he had Regulus in his club, and Regulus became a DE. > I think his reasoning was to reject students related to people who had > been disgraced, such as by being sentenced to Azkaban. Potioncat: Well, your questions bring up two different points. Was Slughorn avoidng DE related students or only those with disgraced relatives? The problem being that we don't know of any students who have DE relatives who weren't caught. We know he asked about Nott, but did not invite him after hearing his father was in prison. I'm wondering if he asked Blaise about Nott because he didn't know Nott senior had been captured? Not likely! I think he asked about Nott to get Blaise's view of the situation. > > Marianne S wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137700 : > > << "Snape wiped the residue from Malfoy's face and repeated his spell. > Now the wounds seemed to be knitting." I find [this] sentence in this > quote interesting.... knitting.... didn't DD say (as a reason for his > longish stay in Sluggie's bathroom while Sluggie and Harry spoke) that > he liked Knitting Patterns? Just struck me as an interesting parallel > ..... >> > Catlady: >> > So I suppose that DD's reference to Muggle *knitting* magazines, > instead of e.g. Muggle gourmet magazines or such, *could* be a > reference to uniting the good guys or uniting the Houses, in this > chapter by recruiting Slughorn. Potioncat: I have the vague feeling that DD's made knitting pattern comments before. But on a separate note, the knitting image fits with Snape's spider-like descriptions, except this knitting is a positive one. > > > > Kathryn Jones wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137894 : >> > The Potters, at least, were already in hiding when Harry was born > (according to the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview): > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/070 > 5-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm > > << JKR: At the time that they christened Harry, they were in hiding. > This was not going to be a widely attended christening, because he was > already in danger. So this is something they were going to do very > quietly, with as few people as possible, that they wanted to make > this commitment with Sirius. >> Potioncat: But do we know when Harry was christened? I know it is frequently performed soon after birth, but I've seen many christenings of older babies and even toddlers. (US Methodist, though) I ask this because I thought there was canon that they went into hiding later, rather than sooner. > > Klodiana wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137960 : > > << I don't know if you noticed this but when Harry tries to find out > if his dad is the HBP, Lupin tells him to check out how old the book > was. Catlady: > I think it was just a red herring, with the explanation that he used > second-hand books because he came from a low-income family, but it's > nice to pretend that it was his mother's old textbook WITH his > mother's old notes written in it, so he was just as much of a cheat > using those notes as Harry was. Potiocnat: Hmm. Because the book was so old, Hermione looked for someone named Prince who attended Hogwarts 50 years ago. She found Eileen Prince and later proved EP was Snape's mother. So, unless there is another explanation, I think JKR intends the book to have belonged to EP who handed it down to Snape. If Lupin knew who owned the book, his advice was either calculated-- Hermione would find out without his telling--or it was bad advice-- since it actually led her to the information she needed. If he didn't know, then it was odd advice. Considering the number of students who probably buy used books, knowing how old the book is does not tell you who used it. I think JKR intends for the reader to understand that it was Eileen's book and she handed it down to Severus. I don't think the writing in the margins is Eileen's, but it could be. I think it's important that she kept the book.She could have sold it earlier. (She was around 30 before Severus was born.) Perhaps she gave Snape his love of books? From jen_kat_du at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 02:10:55 2005 From: jen_kat_du at yahoo.com (jen_kat_du) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:10:55 -0000 Subject: Timing & the Dada position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138859 Denya (Also September 19) wrote: > All three chapters take place 2 weeks after the end of term. > (It's > just possible that 1 & 2 take place up to a week *after* 3, but > certainly not before). > > At that time, Dumbledore has already injured his hand, recovered the ring horcrux, and made the decision to put Snape in the Dada > position (as he's inviting Slughorn back), thus guaranteeing that > Snape will leave Hogwarts at some point in the coming year. > That timing seems to limit the options considerably vis-?-vis > Snape being fooled into, or tricked into, or beguiled-by-blue-eyes > into the UV. Dumbledore had *already* decided that this was to be > Snape's last year. I can't imagine Dumbledore giving the position > to Snape without telling him the consequence ? that would be too > painfully dishonest ? so Dumbledore and Snape have some kind of > plan together > At The Time The UV was made ? a plan that would result in Snape > leaving Hogwarts. I completely agree with you. I think DD gave Snape the position because he knew he was going to die soon and he always needed Snape with him before. Another interesting thing is that since Snape was no longer the potions teacher, Harry could continue with his Auror dreams by taking NEWT Potions. Nice and neat huh? One of the big things that has clenched my decision that Snape is not evil from all of my rereading is that Snape told DD about the kids going to the Department of Mysteries to "rescue Sirius" when DD was no longer at Hogwarts. He didn't have to do that, and by doing so prevented Lord Thingy from hearing the prophecy because the Order showed up. Snape could have pretended to not have figured out Harry's cryptic message about them having Padfoot. In Spinner's End, Snape's answers to Bellatrix's accusations sounded more like excuses and "The Dark Lord doesn't regret it, neither should you" sounds more like convienience than true loyalty. As an aside, since Snape has saved Harry's life more than once, doesn't Harry have a life debt to Snape? Maybe life debt (see conversations about Pettigrew's life debt to Harry) isn't that important in the series. Have a great weekend everyone! Jen From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 27 09:17:01 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:17:01 -0400 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak Message-ID: <002e01c5aae8$157daea0$6fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138860 Finwitch: Dumbledore was never present at 12 Grimmauld Place so far as I know. CathyD: "'Professor Dumbledore doesn't think it's a good idea for Sirius to go with you [to the ministry], and I must say I -- ' '--think he's quite right,' said Sirius through clenched teeth. Mrs. Weasley pursed her lips. 'When did Dumbledore tell you that?' Harry said, staring at Sirius. 'He came last night, when you were in bed, ' said Mr. Weasley. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 27 10:13:25 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:13:25 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > I've been re-reading the whole series recently (since finishing > HBP), and a thought struck me. Please let me know if this has > occurred to anyone else, or if I'm just overlooking something > very obvious. > > In PS/SS, the professors set up the protections for the Stone > at the beginning of the year. Hagrid obtained the stone > before the start of term, and, by the opening feast, > Dumbledore warns the students about the third-floor area, > so Fluffy must already be up there. Hagrid provides Fluffy, > Sprout the Devil's Snare, Flitwick the flying keys, McGonagall > the chessboard, Snape the potions puzzle... > > ...and Dumbledore the Mirror of Erised. > > So if the Mirror of Erised has been guarding the Stone since > the start of the year, down behind a gauntlet of traps, how is > Harry able to stumble across it around Christmas time in an > empty classroom? Geoff: Because, in my own view at least, I don't see the Mirror as being part of the protections around the Philsopher's Stone. You don't have to get past the Mirror in order to reach the dungeon. It was no good to Quirrell even when it had been moved. He couldn't work out what to do... '"This mirror is the key to finding the Stone... Quirrell murmured, tapping his way around the frame. "Trust Dumbledore to come up with something like this... but he's in London..." ...Quirrell came back out from behind the Mirror abd stared hungrily into it. "I see the Stone... I'm presenting it to my master... but where is it?"' (Philosopher's Stone, "The Man with Two faces" p.210 UK edition) So the Mirror is showing him his heart's desire but that is all. Dumbledore makes it clear why Quirell could not have got it... '"And, sir, there's one more thing..." "Just the one?" "How did I get the Stone?" "Ah, now, I'm glad you asked me that. It was one of my more brilliant ideas and, between you and me, that's saying something. You see, only one who wanted to find the Stone - find it, but not use it - would be able to get it..."' (ibid. p.217) So the only person who benefited from the Mirror's presence there was Harry. It was not part of the aggressive protections at all. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 27 10:21:55 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:21:55 -0400 Subject: two weeks of replies Message-ID: <005701c5aaf1$26710af0$6fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138862 Extra powerful Expelliarmus or an extra spell? Only JKR knows for sure! ;-) >> Catlady: PoA: ""Expelliarmus!" he yelled -- except that his wasn't the only voice that shouted. There was a blast that made the door rattle on its hinges; Snape was lifted off his feet and slammed into the wall, then slid down it to the floor, a trickle of blood oozing from under his hair. He had been knocked out. Harry looked around. Both Ron and Hermione had tried to disarm Snape at exactly the same moment." As Harry is the viewpoint character, we know that he didn't throw in an extra spell with his Expelliarmus, and I don't think Ron or Hermione did either CathyD: I knew someone would bring up this situation but it, to me, is obvious. It is the power of three. All three kids did the same spell at the same moment. The power of all three spells at once caused the action. That is what I was asking, was Snape's Expelliarmus against Lockhart so much more powerful that we see it acting differently, or did he throw in a non-verbal Impedimenta? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 27 11:08:09 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:08:09 -0400 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes Message-ID: <005d01c5aaf7$9c4db6f0$6fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138863 Hermionegallo: > I agree and I'll add (and get laughed off the board for it) that I think Slughorn is Lily's grandfather. His eyes are green. There's nothing that says that her parents 100% without a doubt were her blood parents, or that one or both weren't squibs. Or that one of her parents wasn't a child of a squib. If this were the case, plotwise, Slughorn would have much more at stake regarding Harry, and would go to more lengths to help him or protect him. CathyD: I really would like to see your evidence for this, hg, as it appears to go against all that is canon. Dobby's eyes are green too, does that make him a relative of Harry's as well? JKR has said in an interview that she gives the reader information through Dumbledore and Hermione. The first indication of Harry's family comes from Dumbledore who told McGonagall (and the readers) that the Dursley's are the only family Harry has left. Keep in mind that Slughorn and Dumbledore have known each other, at that point, at least fifty years (they were both in teaching positions when Tom Riddle was a kid). With Slug's propensity to collect students and brag about who he knows and how he's connected, I can't see him not telling everyone he knows that Lily is his Granddaughter, if that were the case. We have absolutely no canon to show that Slug did that or that he revealed himself to Harry, at all. In fact, following your point above, that Slugorn would go to more lengths to help Harry, why didn't he just give Harry the memory he needed, instead of making Harry jump through hoops, use the Felix, get Slug drunk, in order to get the memory? In fact, do we see Slug doing anything to help or protect Harry at all apart from bragging him up as a first-rate potions brewer? Even Harry knows he's not but only getting results because he's following the HPB's instructions. Dumbledore didn't know? Dumbledore has known James and Lily for 10-12 years by the time they are murdered. The last year or two of that they were in grave danger. You don't think Dumbledore would have asked about their families - just in case anything happened? Yes, Sirius was Harry's godfather, but at the rate Order members were dropping there was no guarantee that Sirius would be alive to look after Harry, either. Would Lily have overlooked her Grandfather in telling Dumbledore about her living relatives? I doubt it. "I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her *only remaining* relative." (OotP pg 736 Can Ed) It's almost like JKR is saying, "You didn't believe it the first time, I'm confirming it for you here, in book five. Petunia is Harry's only living relative." Slughorn himself says Lily is Muggle-born. You'd think, if he was her Grandfather, he'd know otherwise, wouldn't he? Hagrid said that some of the best he "ever saw were the only ones with magic in 'em in a long line o' Muggles -- look at yer mum! Look what she had fer a sister!" As to whether Lily's parents are without a doubt her blood parents, JKR's recent interview, I think, does make that clear. JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was *completely alone*. So I rather *ruthlessly disposed* of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, *normal Muggle death*. (emphasis mine) Completely alone, I think means, *completely, wholly, totally, entirely* alone. JKR *ruthlessly disposed* of everyone else: every great-aunt and uncle, every grandparent of any number of greats, every cousin thrice removed. The grandparents aren't important, which only logically makes the great-grandparents even *less* so, IMO. Petunia and Lily's parents died normal Muggle deaths because they were, after all, Muggles - not squibs. If there were any magical background in Lily's family, she would not be 'Muggle-born' but a half-blood, would she not? If you're saying that Lily was adopted then she was adopted with her sister, Petunia, or the blood-protection charm that Dumbledore used wouldn't have worked. Does Petunia not know she's adopted? " But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" There have always been people on this list who think Harry has a relative in the closet. The first one I remember is Lupin. It was believed, by some for a time, that Lupin and James switched/transfigured themselves before the attack, so that it was Lupin who died at GH, not James. This came about from the "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice" and the "Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though he had made to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." JKR disposed of that theory by saying that James wouldn't leave his wife, child and close friend to die while he saved himself. Then, of course, there was Mark Evans, who many thought was some relative of Lily's, a new place for Harry to go and live away from the Dursley's, a kid who would be showing up at Hogwarts any day, but who turned out to be a kid who was given a poor choice of surnames. Then JKR said he was no-one except the kid Dudley and Gang beat up one night. She used the Evans surname because it is a popular name in the UK. No connection to Harry whatever. I think canon, all quite consistently, points to Harry being totally and completely alone - apart from the Dursley's (poor kid). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 11:42:42 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:42:42 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138864 - > > redwooddawn: > > > > For all of you who have discussed the Snape/Lily romantic > > possibilities, I think Harry having Lily's eyes would definitely > > be a constant and anguishing reminder to Snape of what he did > > towards causing Lily's death. Slughorn has made it clear that > > anyone who admired or loved Lily cannot help but be moved in > > seeing those eyes in her son. > --------------------------------------- > Cindy (aoibhneach1) > I had an idea that Snape hated Harry from the get-go not only > because he hated James, but because every time he looked at Harry, > he saw Lily's eyes. Valky: Can I first ask Cindy, is that name gaelic? It's beautiful. If tis Gael then twuld be pronounced eevneeyah-ch yes? Anyhow I like it very much and it says nice things about you :D On to Harry's eyes. I don't mean to shoot down this line of reasoning. (I *really* don't), but I distinctly remember a quote from JKR (pertaining to some artworks of Harry without his glasses on) in which Jo implies that Harry's eyes are a weakness rather than a strength. I think the actual quote reads "...don't they understand that they are his [Harry's] vulnerability." Paraphrase. I wonder how this looks in the light of considering Snape and Harry's relationship to be the plot point here. I haven't really got an answer as to the significance of Harry's eyes, as a vulnerability. But he certainly gets blinded a lot in the books. I have speculated on that before and got nowhere but it's the only specific eye vulnerability I found in Harry. and it doesn't seem to have much to do with Lily. So I'll leave it with you, maybe something will turn up this time :D Valky From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 12:33:24 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050827123324.62907.qmail@web53112.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138865 --- doddiemoemoe wrote: > All the Snape posts...one question keeps pecking the back of my > brain pan. What would Snape have to do to redeem himself? > [SNIP] > > Doddie > (who really doesn't understand why so many > loathe PP but not Snape?!?!) How about this? Snape and Dumbledore set the bait on the greatest trap of all - Snape kills Dumbledore in full view of witnesses - so that Voldemort's last remaining doubts of Snape's loyalty evaporate immediately. (After all, it's kind of hard to be loyal to Dumbledore when he's dead.) Result is that Snape is toast as far as everyone on the Good Side is concerned and he's notso hotso on the DE side because they're all madly jealous of his new closeness with the Dark Lord. The only person who's unabashedly pro-Severus is Voldemort himself. So Snape "redeems" himself by being a human time bomb at Voldemort's side who detonates at the right moment so that Harry's odds get better for his final confrontation. The problem I have with lists of what Snape's done wrong is that they lack context. We don't know what plan Dumbledore and Snape were running for the past three books because Harry doesn't know it and wouldn't recognize it. But if there are two people in this series who know how to strategize, it's Dumbledore and Snape. They both know Voldemort better than anyone on the Good Side and they're the ones most likely to come up with a plan that exploits Voldemort's weaknesses. Everyone else is still wetting their robes at the mention of the guy's name. So blanket condemnations of Snape's evilness strike me as not relevant until the plan plays out and we know what the strategy was. Then we can judge if they were right or not and if the risks were worth taking. And speaking personally, Chapter 2 is proof to me that Snape is Good. If Chapter 2 had not been there, it would have been proof that Snape is Evil. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 12:54:41 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall and Lupin's reaction to Harry's story (Was: It's over, Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050827125441.10767.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I also noticed the very swift turning against Snape--suspiciously > fast, in fact, almost as if it were planned and they were in on > some secret that they were keeping from Harry > > What exactly is going on here? Why would they turn so quickly > against a fellow Order member whom Dumbledore trusted so > implicitly? Partly I think it's because they're in shock and in no condition at the moment to process information unemotionally. In particular, McGonagall, Lupin and Hagrid all looked up to Dumbledore as almost larger than life; his absense will leave a large void in their lives. But I also think it's an indication of how people quickly come to conclusions without subjecting them to critical analysis. By the end of Dumbledore's funeral there will be a strong concensus amongst the Good Side that Snape was just waiting his chance to escape Hogwarts and was always bound to turn on Dumbledore. (Harry's inaccurate explanation of Dumbledore's words won't help either.) We've been critical in the past about how everyone could assume Sirius' guilt in the death of the Potters and Pettigrew, how people wouldn't insist on a trial or investigation to make sure without a doubt. Well, this is one way that kind of group-thinking happens. When "everyone knows" what happened, why bother checking deeper? Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From derek at rhinobunny.com Sat Aug 27 13:05:16 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:05:16 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Because, in my own view at least, I don't see the Mirror as being > part of the protections around the Philsopher's Stone. You don't > have to get past the Mirror in order to reach the dungeon. Derek: So prior to the Mirror's relocation to the dungeon, what were all the elaborate protections guarding? Nothing? In other words, if Quirrell had somehow managed to use his troll diversion successfully at Halloween, and had gotten past the protections then instead of later in the school year, the Stone just wouldn't have been there? From phil at pcsgames.net Sat Aug 27 13:25:33 2005 From: phil at pcsgames.net (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:25:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? References: Message-ID: <001c01c5ab0a$d598f100$6600a8c0@phil> No: HPFGUIDX 138868 "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > Because, in my own view at least, I don't see the Mirror as being > > part of the protections around the Philsopher's Stone. You don't > > have to get past the Mirror in order to reach the dungeon. > > Derek: > So prior to the Mirror's relocation to the dungeon, what were all > the elaborate protections guarding? Nothing? > > In other words, if Quirrell had somehow managed to use his troll > diversion successfully at Halloween, and had gotten past the > protections then instead of later in the school year, the Stone > just wouldn't have been there? Derek Now Phil: That is strikingly similar to the efforts in getting to the locket in HBP. Quirrell could have gotten through six puzzles to get to an empty room with the Mirror holding the stone being elsewhere. Harry and DD went through six puzzles to get the locket: 1. Knowing where the cave was. 2. Swimming to the secret entrance to the inner cave. 3. Using blood to enter the inner cave. 4. Finding the boat. 5. Crossing the lake undetected. 6. Drinking the potion. Phil From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 13:41:39 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:41:39 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138869 > It occurred to me that the Unbreakable Vow might function separate > from the will of the person making the vow, i.e., that taking the Vow > sets a certain course of action in motion. This would be similar to > firing a gun at someone: even if the person firing the gun changes his > mind after firing it, there is no way he can alter the course of the > bullet. So, when Snape promised to fulfill the third part of Draco's > task upon Draco's failure, the bullet left the gun and Dumbledore was > effectively dead, either at Snape's hand or at Draco's, unless both of > them were eliminated. The Vow itself would eliminate further choice > on Snape's part, even if he did not know what he was vowing to do. > The Vow would assume agency, acting as a sort of Imperius Curse, > supplanting the will of the person who made it. > > Possible? > > lealess Ceridwen: I've wondered that, too. Could the DEs informing Snape of Draco's perceived inability, have activated the vow, forcing Snape to kill Dumbledore? This would also explain the look on his face. Interesting that you mention the Imperius Curse in connection. At one point, a young boy (nine years old? younger?) is arrested for trying to kill his grandparents. They suspected he was under Imperius, or they knew it, I don't recall offhand. When I re-read that part, it jumped out at me, having already finished the book off once. Though I wondered at that point (still do wonder, though thouroughly believe that DD wouldn't, and JKR wouldn't make him) if Dumbledore Imperio'd Snape on the tower, to do it. I just keep getting the nagging impression that Imperius plays a part. And speaking of boys in their single digit years, Ron said the twins tried to get him to make a UV with them. Put them together, you might get a glimpse of a tree, a bit of ground, and lake water in a puzzle. Ron said that breaking a UV kills the bondee. But, things said by another student aren't always right. That's what Ron thought. But what if a UV forces the bondee to fulfill itself, rather than punishing them when they don't? Arthur would still have been as horrified and angry when he found out what the twins were trying to do. And, the name of the vow itself, 'Unbreakable'. Being able to go against it would make the name ill-fitting. If it is Unbreakable, then no one can go against it. It will see to it that its provisions are fulfilled. There will be no chance of someone breaking it, since breaking the vow is impossible. Which sounds like it removes choice, and could indeed act like an Imperius Curse. It also sounds horrible! Ceridwen. From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 13:46:25 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:46:25 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138870 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > So if the Mirror of Erised has been guarding the Stone since > the start of the year, down behind a gauntlet of traps, how is > Harry able to stumble across it around Christmas time in an > empty classroom? > > Am I missing something? I think it's a great idea, actually. Imagine going through all the protections to come to an empty room. You'd have to start all over again, trying to figure out where the stone might be hidden. I think you've got something...obviously something we can't explain, but if I were going to, I'd say that Dumbledore set up the mirror, then didn't put it at the end of the trail, so to speak. Fluffy in essence, wasn't protecting anything, except the secret that there was no prize at the end of the run. However, Harry found the mirror and was laying his life to waste viewing his family every night. Dumbledore knew he had to do something...and the only place he could put the mirror that Harry wouldn't find it was...at the end of the puzzle. He was still quite confident that no one would be able to get the stone. This is why I wish JKR would write an 8th book...only from Dumbledore's diary, or pensive...explaining all the ways that Dumbledore guided Harry, helping him to be the best he could be... preparing him for the final battle. For me, it's like looking into the Mirror of Erised...it will be an unrealized dream. KathyO From anezat at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 13:35:40 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:35:40 -0000 Subject: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's the evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138871 > Lolita: > in Book 7, or she is far less skillful a writer than I first thought she was. > Ceridwen: > I am terrified that it will turn out to be the truth. She was writing > for children/young adults, not for adults. Angela relies: I initially approached her books with the thought that they were well- written, but ultimately children's books. But by the 4th book I got sucked into the fantasy of the stories and found them to be much deeper books with full realized characters, not just clever plot devices. I know the OOTP is the least favorite book of many, but I thought JKR had really come into her own with her writing in it. Harry is explored on a much deeper psychological level than before, and I love all the description and side plots. She introduces new characters and develops existing characters. I thought JKR was taking these books to a more mature level, so I was sadly disappointed when I read HBP. I still think the story is very good, and she truly left the Snape issue open to go either way in the 7th book. However, it is much too plot- driven. But what happened to her rich development of character? I feel she sort of gave in to all the criticisms of OOTP and tried to make HBP everything to everybody. I'm hopeful that in Book 7 she'll return to the writing of Book 5. I didn't think many of the characters' dialogue in HBP was particularly believable (I felt DD's dialogue was stilted, as though JKR didn't really know how to give him an authentic voice. She does much better with younger characters.) Well, here's hoping Book 7 will live up to all expectations, and still loving Harry Potter despite Book 6. Angela From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 14:11:51 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:11:51 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138872 CathyD Wrote: > he [Snape] got at least 25% of his > 40 fifth-year students to achieve > an Outstanding OWL. In previous years Snape must have been teaching an entire other potions class that we have never seen for Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, and we don't know exactly how many students were in either class. Also, it's a rather long chain of reasoning to go from Harry and Ron were the only ones we see ask for a potions book to all the others must have gotten Outstanding. And we don't really know how rare an Outstanding is in potions, although I will concede it must be rare in Defense Against The Dark Arts if even Hermione can't get an O; although in that case Harry may have blown the curve. Eggplant From swrightaz at aol.com Sat Aug 27 09:47:08 2005 From: swrightaz at aol.com (sinaz0211) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:47:08 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138873 > Amiable Dorsai: > Why agree to the Unbreakable Vow? Sinaz responds: By the time Snape made his UV, Dumbledore 1)already had the ring horcrux 2)had involved Snape, to some extent,in his search for the horcruxes, at the least by going to him for the counter-curse on the ring. Probably Snape knew more than that, as DD had been looking for the horcruxes "for a very long time." It's possible that Snape may be the only teacher who knows about DD's search. And lastly, he 3)had made the decision to put Snape in the DADA position. So, here's my theory to attempt a cannon-based explanation for Snape's killing of Dumbledore, and for accepting the unbreakable vow. We know that Marvelo's ring had, "a terrible curse on it. Had it not been..for my own produgious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned, I might not have lived to tell the tale." After that, it would be logical for DD/Snape to have a "worst case scenerio" conversation. You know there's a good chance that one of these is going to kill me. If so, you *must* promise you will continue the Horcrux search. It's the most important task, and Harry's too important to the final 1/7 of LV's soul to leave the whole search up to him. You're the best man for the job, etc. Part of that conversation may have also been...under no circumstances can I fall into enemy hands. DD had told Harry regarding Riddle's diary, "What intrigued and alarmed me most was that the diary had been intended as a weapon as much as a safeguard." When he and Harry arrived at the horcrux in the lake, and he gave Harry his instructions before drinking the potion in the basin, Harry asks,"What if it kills you?" "Oh, LV would not want to immediately kill the person. He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate...and why they were so intent on emptying the basin." Finally, as he is drinking, DD says, "It's all my fault. I know I did wrong. Don't hurt them, hurt me instead. I want to die. KILL ME!" Hence, the famous, "Severus, please" line. I think it had been discussed in advance, Snape took in the scene, saw it was indeed "worst case" and did what he had to do, with the curse that would ensure his mentor would not face a fate worse than death. Knowing the alternative, I think he could "mean it" for the AK. Couple that with the fact that, if he doesn't, he dies as well from his UV, and two horcrux hunters are dead. Now, why did Snape take the UV with Narcissa to begin with? This is my (sorry!) long-winded point of agreement with Amiable Dorsai. He needed to know Draco's plan. He cements his standing with the Death Eaters. And - the Malfoy family, vulnerable right now anyway because of Lucius' failures, now owe him big time. That's important because it may be where he hides out when he flees in book 7. Wouldn't that be handy if there's something hidden in the Malfoy house, in that "chamber under the floor." Was it plans of the Malfoy's house that Snape brought to the OoP in Grimwald Place? One last little snippet, the chapter title "Spinner's End." I love the dual meaning there. It's the chapter where Snape quits playing both sides and bets his hand. I just happen to think it's for the Order. But because Snape's cannon is not good guy, but at best redemption -- probably after his death -- the only thing he can do in Book 6 is scream, "Don't..call..me..a..coward!!" Sinaz. From lady.indigo at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 13:53:13 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:53:13 -0400 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: <20050827123324.62907.qmail@web53112.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050827123324.62907.qmail@web53112.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63378ee70508270653b850784@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138874 Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > And speaking personally, Chapter 2 is proof to me that Snape is Good. > If Chapter 2 had not been there, it would have been proof that Snape > is Evil. Thank you! From a pure literary standpoint having Snape actually be evil after that chapter makes no sense, especially considering the full run of the books. Why have Harry be suspicious of him all this time only to suddenly, out of nowhere have it be true? It'd be the most terribly anticlimactic choice ever, in my opinion, and undermine a lot of what Rowling could say with this character about redemption and the hate we pass on to each other. (Oh, and hi! Kim, aka Lady Indigo, 19 year old Floridian, sophomore year of college, had a sudden interest to not only get back into Harry Potter but for the first time get involved in the fandom when the sixth book came out. It's a pleasure. :D) I think anyone who uses common sense can figure out that Dumbledore planned this to happen, whether or not we can guess his plan. He knew Draco was trying to kill him. He knew Snape had made an Unbreakable Vow. He knew Draco didn't have a murderer's spirit in him. In spite of his 'significantly larger' mistakes, he's not so stupid that he wouldn't expect something to happen. He also put Snape in a position that he was guaranteed to only last a year in. And he freezes Harry in place and calls for Snape, not Slughorn or any other skilled teacher, to come out and have a look at him. I can't claim to know what his reasons are, but I'm willing to bet they were foreshadowed with Ron in the very first book: there must be some sacrifices. Besides, Harry's estimate for the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape is ridiculous; nobody can swear by that, and I'm surprised even Harry does. And where do you think the phoenix has gone? JKR says she can't tell us. Almost anyone can just come to Hogwarts and claim Fawkes if he's just gone to a new owner. Except for the one owner he can have who's loyal but on the run at the moment, someone who needs protection more than any of them. Snape. ~ Lady Indigo From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 16:57:09 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:57:09 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138876 athyD: ...Snape, despite his teaching method, is actually a very good teacher in that he got at least 25% of his 40 fifth-year students to achieve an Outstanding OWL. Deb adds: ... Yet 4 Ravenclaws and one Hufflepuff make it into NEWTs Potions. Amiable Dorsai: So of the 10, 4 are Ravenclaws, one is Hermione Granger, one is Snape's pet. Big whoop. They could have propped a textbook in front of the class and Hermione would have gotten an Outstanding. I don't imagine the Ravenclaws were far behind. 4 or 5 'puffs, now that would have been interesting... Amiable Dorsai From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 17:08:10 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050827170810.32533.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138877 --- Rebecca Hoskins wrote: > I think that Del's observation is central to the argument of > whether or not Tom Riddle had any chance of living a normal life > when he had 'never known love'. > > It was not what had happened to Tom that made him the person he > was, it was the way that he saw what had happened to him, and the > way that he reacted to it. "he was special" , "better", it was > the "others who > were wrong". He was essentially arrogant and, basically, > not-a-nice- person. True....but there was another aspect to the 11-year-old Tom Riddle that no one has commented on. When Dumbledore first appears in his room, Tom is immediately suspicious that he's some kind of doctor who's come to take him to an asylum, he denies that he is crazy and insists that Dumbledore tell him the truth about who he is. Later, he confides that he can understand snakes, that they come up to him and "tell him things". I think that would be a pretty freaky thing for a kid to experience. Imagine hearing reptiles talk to you in clear language and then trying to tell someone else about it. Small wonder that when he finds out it's magic, his relief makes almost giddy and he carelessly tells Dumbledore things he later regrets. His demeanour when he tells Dumbledore about parseltongue is quite notable: finally he can tell someone who WILL understand. The relief at finding out he was sane and that there was nothing "wrong" (in the way he'd feared) with him, must have been almost overwhelming. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 27 17:25:46 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:25:46 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > Because, in my own view at least, I don't see the Mirror as being > > part of the protections around the Philsopher's Stone. You don't > > have to get past the Mirror in order to reach the dungeon. > > Derek: > So prior to the Mirror's relocation to the dungeon, what were all > the elaborate protections guarding? Nothing? Geoff: But we are not told where the Stone is. There seems to be an implication from Dumbledore that the Stone /was/ in the Mirror in his reply to Harry when Harry asks "How did I get the Stone out of the Mirror?" (I must apologise that I didn't quote this in full in message 138861). Or was the Mirror simply a link to the Stone? Derek: > In other words, if Quirrell had somehow managed to use his troll > diversion successfully at Halloween, and had gotten past the > protections then instead of later in the school year, the Stone > just wouldn't have been there? Geoff: This passage, on re-reading, raises a number of questions. First, for whom were the protections set up? Was Dumbledore expecting the Trio to get through them on their own? Their individual and combined talents got them through in the end but was this the result he wanted or expected? The other thought which came to me was, if Quirrell had got to the dungeon through the various obstacles, why were some of them still apparently intact? The troll was knocked out and the key had been used but the chess game and the potion bottles seemed to be intact. Was the chess game magically "programmed" to reset itself? If Quirrell had solved the logic problem, how is it that there was still some of the liquid in the little bottle which we are told that Harry drained at one gulp? This event is proving rather interesting in hindsight. From QueenJennifer1 at msn.com Sat Aug 27 18:01:39 2005 From: QueenJennifer1 at msn.com (Jennifer Thomassian) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:01:39 -0600 Subject: "An old man's mistakes" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138879 I know that this topic has been touched on many, many times, but it just seems that JKR was preparing us all through HBP for what Snape did. Not that any of us expected for him to kill Dumbledore, mind you, but for the fact that Dumbledore could have been mistaken about him. He made several comments about, "an old man's mistakes.......", but you thought he was always just referring to Harry. He always said he had no question as to where Snape's loyalties lie, but never said why. I could be way off on this idea, but I was just wondering..... Queen Jennifer From hexicon at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 18:01:50 2005 From: hexicon at yahoo.com (Kristen) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:01:50 -0000 Subject: Timing & the Dada position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138880 Denya wrote: All three chapters take place 2 weeks after the end of term. (It's just possible that 1 & 2 take place up to a week *after* 3, but certainly not before). At that time, Dumbledore has already injured his hand, recovered the ring horcrux, and made the decision to put Snape in the Dada position (as he's inviting Slughorn back), thus guaranteeing that Snape will leave Hogwarts at some point in the coming year. That timing seems to limit the options considerably vis-?-vis Snape being fooled into, or tricked into, or beguiled-by-blue-eyes into the UV. Dumbledore had *already* decided that this was to be Snape's last year. I can't imagine Dumbledore giving the position to Snape without telling him the consequence ? that would be too painfully dishonest ? so Dumbledore and Snape have some kind of plan together. At The Time The UV was made ? a plan that would result in Snape leaving Hogwarts. Jen wrote: I completely agree with you. I think DD gave Snape the position because he knew he was going to die soon and he always needed Snape with him before. Another interesting thing is that since Snape was no longer the potions teacher, Harry could continue with his Auror dreams by taking NEWT Potions. Nice and neat huh? [snip] Now Hexicon: I am starting to come around to the theory that DD knew he was dying. In addition to the points Jen and Denya make, I also think DD knew that Snape would not be able to function as a teacher and member of the OotP without DD there to continue to vouch for his loyalty. I think DD and Snape would have agreed that the OotP members would reject Snape without DD there to provide continued assurances. For example, if DD had died of the ring curse or from the cave potion, would the other OotP members agreed to let Snape continue his double agent work? Assuming that recovering the ring horcrux left DD on borrowed time, I think that DD and Snape had reached an agreement that Snape would get the DADA position--*before* the UV. DD knew his death would mean an end for both Snape's direct role in the OotP and his teaching career. For this reason, the DADA curse didn't risk any additional harm?Snape would have to leave anyway. From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 27 18:33:08 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:33:08 -0000 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: <002e01c5aae8$157daea0$6fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138881 Finwitch: > > Dumbledore was never present at 12 Grimmauld Place > > so far as I know. CathyD: > "'Professor Dumbledore doesn't think it's a good > idea for Sirius to go with you [to the ministry], > and I must say I -- ' '--think he's quite right,' > said Sirius through clenched teeth. Mrs. Weasley > pursed her lips. 'When did Dumbledore tell you that?' > Harry said, staring at Sirius. 'He came last night, > when you were in bed, ' said Mr. Weasley. houyhnhnm: And the night Harry arrives at Number 12 Grimmauld Place: -------------------------------------------------- "We told Dumbledore we wanted to tell you what was going on," said Ron. "We did, mate. But he's really busy now, we've only seen him [*]twice[*] since we came here ....." -------------------------------------------------- So, three times, at least, before school starts. From sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 27 18:55:57 2005 From: sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan1) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:55:57 -0000 Subject: Voldemort good/bad. Was: Twisted Irony In-Reply-To: <20050827170810.32533.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > Rebecca: It was not what had happened to Tom that made him the person he was, it was the way that he saw what had happened to him, and the way that he reacted to it. "he was special" , "better", it was the "others who were wrong". He was essentially arrogant and, basically, not-a-nice- person. Magdna: True....but there was another aspect to the 11-year-old Tom Riddle that no one has commented on. When Dumbledore first appears in his room, Tom is immediately suspicious that he's some kind of doctor who's come to take him to an asylum, he denies that he is crazy and insists that Dumbledore tell him the truth about who he is. Later, he confides that he can understand snakes, that they come up to him and "tell him things". I think that would be a pretty freaky thing for a kid to experience. Imagine hearing reptiles talk to you in clear language and then trying to tell someone else about it. Small wonder that when he finds out it's magic, his relief makes almost giddy and he carelessly tells Dumbledore things he later regrets. His demeanour when he tells Dumbledore about parseltongue is quite notable: finally he can tell someone who WILL understand. The relief at finding out he was sane and that there was nothing "wrong" (in the way he'd feared) with him, must have been almost overwhelming. Sue(hpfan) delurking after an extended absence to add her thoughts. No question that these things are true. More telling than his fear or his arrogance (most fearful, insecure people are arrogant. The more insecure the more arrogant typically) was his capacity and desire to hurt and control others. When he discovered his powers he did not use them (at least as far as we know) to escape, create, change his environment to make things better for himself (like bringing more food into his room if he was hungry, repairing things that belonged to him when broken etc.) he used his powers against others. I agree with DD that *that* behavior was way scarier than talking to snakes or even stealing. Sue From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 19:13:57 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why are Voldemort's followers called Deatheaters ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050827191357.20358.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138883 -- lolita_ns wrote: > The second possible explanation (although I must repeat that I > absolutely prefer the first one) is that they enjoy killing, they > absorb death. Ergo: Death Eaters = People Who Feed On Death. A few years ago I read somewhere - can't remember which site - that a group of kids told JKR that they'd nicknamed Draco, Crabbe, Goyle et al the "Death Snackers" because they're weren't evil enough yet. JKR loved it. Magda (pointing out that technically this is not a one-sentence response but a two-paragraph one) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 27 19:21:01 2005 From: sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan1) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:21:01 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138884 Derek: In other words, if Quirrell had somehow managed to use his troll diversion successfully at Halloween, and had gotten past the protections then instead of later in the school year, the Stone just wouldn't have been there? Geoff: This passage, on re-reading, raises a number of questions. First, for whom were the protections set up? Was Dumbledore expecting the Trio to get through them on their own? Their individual and combined talents got them through in the end but was this the result he wanted or expected? The other thought which came to me was, if Quirrell had got to the dungeon through the various obstacles, why were some of them still apparently intact? The troll was knocked out and the key had been used but the chess game and the potion bottles seemed to be intact. Was the chess game magically "programmed" to reset itself? If Quirrell had solved the logic problem, how is it that there was still some of the liquid in the little bottle which we are told that Harry drained at one gulp? Sue(hpfan): I have always thought the troll at Halloween was a diversion to "see" what was guarding the stone and that DD decided after that point he had better add something to the collection to make the stone nearly impossible to get to. Clearly, he believed someone could get through the others and access the stone. (Clearly to me becuase he added it later and as a brilliant mind he figured what the troll was for, as did Snape, the night it was released). As far as the potion goes, there was very little left in the bottle that Harry drained in one gulp. Harry describes it as "barely one swallow." (US pb 286) I alwasy thought that was because Quirrel had already taken enough to get himself through. I am also pretty confident that the chess set did indeed get up and re-set itself. I have always wondered about whether DD knew the trio would try to get to the stone. I think now, after reading HBP, DD would have done his best to keep them out and then let the cards fall where they would. I don't think he intended Harry to try and get to the stone or face Voldemort. We know that DD's fatal flaw is his trust in people, he evidently continued to trust Quirrel long after Snape had stopped trusting him. We know now that they were very close, DD would have known Snape's suspicions and probably told him to wait and see, that perhaps Quirrel would come around. He did not seem to know about the whole Voldehead problem. I am currently re-reading PS/SS to see if I can find anything interesting there in regard to Horcruxes and it seems like an entirely different book now that I know what I know about the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore (not that I presume to know the whole truth until this whole series is done, although I'm leaning to the loyal-to-DD!Snape side). Sue(hpfan) who appologizes for rambling, thought I was going to write something short and sweet. From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 27 19:42:25 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:42:25 -0000 Subject: Timing & the Dada position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138885 Denya: > I was just re-reading the first 3 chapters of HBP, and the timing of > the UV struck me. > > All three chapters take place 2 weeks after the end of term. (It's > just possible that 1 & 2 take place up to a week *after* 3, but > certainly not before). houyhnhnm: I agree with your timeline. The action in the first three chapters takes place at the same time (or nearly so). Denya: > It is also clear that Snape is at least to some > degree lying in that scene. He says: "He intends > me to do it in the end, I think. But he is > determined that Draco should try first. You > see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, > I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little > longer, fulfilling my useful role as a spy." > (P. 39 UK edition) houyhnhnm: That statement seemed suspicious to me, too. Your interpretation depends on Snape's knowing of the curse and believing in it. But how can he not know after 16-17 years at Hogwarts. My thought when I read it was that it suggests he doesn't know what Draco is supposed to do, because how can he assume that Hogwarts would remain open after the headmaster has been assassinated by a student. What would be the need for him to remain at Hogwarts as a spy if Dumbledore is dead. Reading that passage again also put me in mind of another towards the end of the book, which also deals with Snape's expectations for the future. --------------------------------------------------- "You still got detention with Snape this Saturday?" Ron continued. "Yeah, and the Saturday after that, and the Saturday after that," sighed Harry. "And he's hinting now that if I don't get all the boxes done by the end of term, we'll carry on next year." (HBP, AE, p. 539) --------------------------------------------------- Is Snape dissembling because he is afraid Harry already knows too much ? (I do think the purpose of the increasingly lengthy detentions was partly to keep Harry away from Draco.) Or are we now dealing with The Melancholy!Snape, The Man Who Cannot Make Up His Mind and is simply waiting for his fate to overtake him? From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 20:00:50 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:00:50 -0000 Subject: two weeks of replies, ctl-F for YOUR name or topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138886 > >>Betsy Hp: > > If Dumbledore didn't have a definite trust in Snape's overall > > goodness, (snip) I *really* doubt he'd have allowed him to be a > > teacher. (Not all Order members are teachers after all.) > >>Catlady: > And not all teachers are Order members. I can't believe Dumbledore > had a definite trust in Lockhart's overall goodness, as he knew > about Lockhart's real line of work (Memory Charm: "Impaled on your > own sword, Gilderoy?") Betsy Hp: Yes, but Lockhart wasn't a member of a terrorist organization. Professor Sprout might not be an Order member, but she isn't off planning or participating in killing folks. For Dumbledore to bring Snape into Hogwarts and put him in a position of power over the children under Dumbledore's charge means, to me anyway, that Dumbledore *must* have believed that Snape was no longer a Death Eater and had no sort of attraction to the Death Eater lifestyle. He must have believed in Snape's overall goodness. Just as I'm sure he believed in Lockhart's overall harmlessness. (And Lockhart *was* harmless until cornered, *anyone* can become dangerous when cornered.) And Dumbledore did more than just hire Snape for a year-long position. He hired Snape for the duration and made him a Head of House. Dumbledore definitely trusted Snape; his actions show us as much. Betsy Hp From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Aug 27 18:58:02 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:58:02 -0000 Subject: Forcing Voldemort's hand (was Re: Timing & the Dada position) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138887 > Jen wrote: > I completely agree with you. I think DD gave Snape the position > because he knew he was going to die soon and he always needed Snape > with him before. But DID he know that Severus would function only one year in DADA? It's an interesting question. The idea of the position being cursed is simple conjecture from DD, based on the fact of what's happened after he refused the position to Voldemort. Now, he has pretty good evidence, but no proof that we know of. Even if he did have proof, consider the situation. He is placing Voldemort's "spy" in the critical DADA position. Perhaps, far from being a way to ensure that Snape leaves at the end of the year, he sees this as a way to force Voldemort to remove whatever curse he's put on the position. He is, in essence, forcing Voldy's hand. Now Voldemort must either remove the curse or lose his source of information inside Hogwarts at an absolutely critical juncture. Dumbledore, meanwhile, solves the DADA problem, keeps Snape in exactly the same advantageous position (for the Order) he's in with Voldemort, and gains a DADA professor who is competent and (Dumbledore believes) loyal, if not a very good teacher. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Aug 27 19:30:30 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:30:30 -0000 Subject: The function of Chapter Two Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138888 This is yet *another* look at Chapter Two, "Spinner's End." Please bear with me. Most of the discussions of this subject seem to be concerned with what this reveals about Snape's character, and then what it means for the plot. However, HBP is a radically plot-driven book, much more so than OOTP, at any rate. Many of the criticisms of it, in fact, seem to be that the plot determines the character in HBP, rather than the other way around -- which would be more believable and better writing. So, what function does Chapter Two provide for the plot? Particularly, what do we get out of Chapter Two we *only* get out of Chapter Two and nowhere else? I am going by the theory that JKR learned her lesson in OOTP about indulging in unnecessary excursions, and that there must be something in Chapter Two we don't get anywhere else in the book. Well, we learn about the Unbreakable Vow, but that isn't anything we don't hear about anywhere else. Harry hears Snape talking about it with Draco and Ron explains it, so the vow as such is simply redundant info. We get the explanation from Snape's side of his return to Dumbledore. However, the basic facts of this are repeated at the end of the book, and so that once again is redundant. We get a few "backfills" that help explain plot holes and contradictions (e.g. Quirrell), but those seem mainly to be just housekeeping items. What we DO get here that we don't get anywhere else in the whole book, or the whole series for that matter, is a look at Snape when Harry isn't around. We see the circumstances of his life (evidently not too good) and the way he interacts with some key characters (Narcissa, Bellatrix, Wormtail). I think THIS is the key to the chapter -- particularly since JKR has hinted that Wormtail still has a role to play, and that Harry sparing him will be very important. I'm not predicting, but I am guessing, that the purpose of this chapter was to reveal the relationship between Wormtail and Snape, and possibly to hint at something between Snape and Narcissa. Now what does that mean for Snape's character? Well, not all that much definite. It could be used as evidence for anything. However, IF Wormtail is to be important the fact that he has been working for Snape hints at a Snape that is not completely on Harry's side. But, like I say, it is only a hint and nothing would surprise me at this point. Mostly I am influenced by my firm belief that bringing Snape down clearly on either side would be a contrived and poorly written ending, at this point. But anyway, to return to my main theme, I think what most of us have been focusing on - the Unbreakable Vow and the circumstances of Snape taking it - is only a blind. We don't really learn anything from that that we couldn't learn or infer from information elsewhere in the book. I think the real information that will be important is how Snape relates to Wormtail. But I would not be at all surprised to be wrong about that one. Lupinlore From agdisney at msn.com Sat Aug 27 14:23:12 2005 From: agdisney at msn.com (Andrea Grevera) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:23:12 -0400 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138889 Lealess: It occurred to me that the Unbreakable Vow might function separate from the will of the person making the vow, i.e., that taking the Vow sets a certain course of action in motion. The Vow itself would eliminate further choice on Snape's part, even if he did not know what he was vowing to do. The Vow would assume agency, acting as a sort of Imperius Curse, supplanting the will of the person who made it. Hi, This is the first time I'm replying to the group so..... Can it be possible that when Snape moved his arm before agreeing to the 3rd request he somehow was able to alter the vow without N & B knowing? He was able to negate the vow because the movement meant something more then just pulling away? Something he did silently? Just a thought. dizzymom From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 20:31:56 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:31:56 -0000 Subject: What indicates to me that Slughorn is related to Harry In-Reply-To: <005d01c5aaf7$9c4db6f0$6fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138890 CathyD: I really would like to see your evidence for this, hg, as it appears to go against all that is canon. Dobby's eyes are green too, does that make him a relative of Harry's as well? hg: Surely you didn't intend that to sound as sarcastic and dismissive as it does?! I never said that Slughorn's green eyes were the only indicator, but I did hesitate in posting my idea, precisely because I feared getting a belittling response. I think it's safe to assume that any board member who posts an idea has read and re-read all of the books and put considerable thought into what resonated for him or her, as is the case with me. If my error lies in posting the germ of the idea before the prepared dissertation, then that speaks to how the board has evolved in the past couple of years and suggests I should adjust accordingly. Noted and apology offered. If anyone is still with me, then on to my fun idea. Slughorn's excessive adoration of Lily and Harry has provoked suspicion from many readers. Board member Del pointed out that his fawning bordered on mimicking pedophilia; although she didn't believe he was predatory, he seemed to be. I think she was right that his favoritism of them was over the top even for his standards -- and (if I remember correctly) that he seemed to be hiding something. I agree. However, as the students are considered children (until seventeen) in the series to date, I think an adult teacher developing a crush on a student would contradict canon. I do NOT believe Slughorn was drawn as a "dirty old man." In my opinion, Slughorn's behavior fits more neatly into canon as nepotism than pedophilia. The relation of Slughorn to Lily couldn't be parent, unless he had an affair with Mrs. Evans or if he had a relationship with Mrs. Evans before Mr. Evans. Either of these scenarios would make Lily and Petunia half-sisters. I think it's possible but not as likely as grandfather. Great-grandfather or uncle to Lily seems too far removed to be pertinent to the plot; my hypothesis is grandfather to Lily. If he was Lily's grandfather, for the bloodline thing to work, he'd have had a Squib daughter who married either a Muggle or another Squib. This child could have come from a marriage or indiscretion. I get the impression that Slughorn didn't know Lily was his granddaughter but suspected it. Either the half-sib idea or the grandfather idea work as hypotheses considering: "there's more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye;" the "no, no she's not a squib, but" quote about Petunia; it allows for the Evanses to die natural Muggle deaths; keeps Harry alone, if the information has been withheld in one shape or another (Petunia and Slughorn, not likely Dumbledore); is in line with the "Harry is a half-blood because of his mother's grandparents" quote. Evidence of the possibility of the hypothesis being true: -- Two of Harry's dorm-mates have a family history that involves deception/fractured truth: Seamus' mother didn't tell his father she was a witch; Dean Thomas' father never told his wife he was a wizard. Seamus' story is canon and Dean's is canon once removed, being interview. These two backstories allow the possibility of wizarding genes in Lily's bloodline. -- JK's website quote about half-bloods: "The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents. If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the Nazis used to show what constituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. I saw one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already devised the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' definitions, and was chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda." With the juxtaposition of the Nazi "reasoning" paragraph to the first, the likely inference from this quote is that all it would take was even one Muggle to "muddy" the bloodline. With Wizarding genes being "dominant and resiliant" according to JK, the only way for Lily to be Muggle-born and have Wizarding genes is if one of her birth parents was a Squib (or if she wasn't actually Muggle-born at all, which seems the less likely of the two possibilities). -- It's also possible that the "more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye" and "no, no she is not a Squib, but" quotes refer to the fact that either one of the Evans parents was a Squib or that Petunia and Lily are half-sisters, because we know that JK has stated that Petunia is not a Squib and that she is a Muggle. She is not a witch pretending not to be, as there is no Ministry record of her (OOP, Harry's hearing). OOP 38, Harry looking at Petunia: "She was looking at Harry as she had never looked at him before. And all of a sudden, for the very first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister. He could not have said why this hit him so very powerfully at this moment. All he knew was that hew was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean. Aunt Petunia had never in her life looked at him like that before. Her large, pale eyes (so unlike her sister's) were not narrowed in dislike or anger: They were wide and fearful. The furious pretense that Aunt Petunia had maintained all Harry's life -- that there was no magic and no world other than the world she inhabited with Uncle Vernon -- seemed to have fallen away." This suggests that they could be half-sisters, being that their eyes were so different; conversely, "large, pale eyes" sounds like Slughorn whose eyes are described, for example, as "large, round" (65) and "pale gooseberry" or pale green (67) in HBP. -- The function of Aunt Marge in the plot seems to be to give us more information about breeding and blood, especially in connection with Petunia. POA 25 "It's one of the basic rules of breeding. You see it all the time with dogs. If there's something wrong with the bitch, there'll be something wrong with the pup --" POA 27 (indicating Harry) "This one's got a mean, runty look about him. You get that with dogs. I had Coloned Fubster drown one last year. Ratty little thing it was. Weak. Underbred...It all comes down to blood, as I was saying the other day. Bad blood will out. Now, I'm saying nothing against your family, Petunia -- but your sister was a bad egg. They turn up in the best of families." OOP 691 "They were all bullying him, Hermione, 'cause he's so small!...Hermione, I couldn' leave him. See -- he's my brother!" "Hagrid, when you say 'brother,' do you mean --?" "Well, half-brother. Turns out me mother took up with another giant when she left me dad, and she went and had Grawp here." These quotes make me wonder about Petunia being a "runty" one or about the possibility of half-siblings. -- The only humans in the series who have green eyes are Harry, Lily and Slughorn. JK makes a point of directing us to Slughorn's eyes repeatedly. (In Slughorn's introductory chapter, they are mentioned 8 times in 10 pages; same in Burial chapter.) -- Slughorn has a canon history of keeping hidden from Dumbledore information that he believes will cast him in a bad light. ("...keep it quiet, what I've told -- that's to say, what we've discussed." 499 HBP -- plus his own withholding of the Horcrux conversation memory.) It's been established elsewhere that Dumbledore doesn't know everything. If there was an indiscretion involved in Slughorn being related to Lily, he'd be inclined to keep it from Dumbledore. If he'd been involved with a Muggle, he'd likely keep it from everyone, like Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. Likewise, if he was involved with someone outside of marriage, he'd keep it secret. -- Even if Dumbledore did know, Slughorn would probably be the last person Harry would be sent to live with. It has been established that Dumbledore has kept information from Harry and told him partial truths. Part of Dumbledore's plan in keeping Harry alive was to also keep him grounded, and isolating Harry from the Wizarding world was an integral part of it: PS 15 "These people will never understand him! He'll be famous -- a legend..." (McG.) (AD): "Exactly. It would be enough to turn any boy's head. Famous before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he won't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?" OOP 835-7 "Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended. Well -- not quite whole. You had suffered. I knew you would when I left you on your aunt and uncle's doorstep. I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult years...You might ask -- and with good reason -- why it had to be so. Why could some Wizarding family not have taken you in? Many would have done so more than gladly, would have been honored and delighted to raise you as a son. My answer is that my priority was to keep you alive...Five years ago, then, you arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy nor as well nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances." -- If Slughorn was Harry's great-grandfather, he would likely believe that concealing the memory from Dumbledore would protect Harry -- that revealing it to Dumbledore would put Harry in tremendous danger, even more so if he thinks that Dumbledore suspects Harry of being a Horcrux (when Dumbledore held out the hand with the ring, he was waving it in the direction of Harry, so when Slughorn looked at the ring, he'd be taking in Harry with the same glance). -- Harry asks Slughorn to "be brave, like my mother" and tells him that giving up the memory would be "a very brave and noble thing to do." When Harry is looking into Slughorn's eyes at the end of this Burial chapter, the Felix, unbeknownst to him, has worn off. He thought he had 24 hours worth in the bottle, and so took enough, he thought, for 2-3 hours; the bottle held 12 hours worth, so (if indeed it was real Felix) it would have worn off by the time he was refilling the bottles. It is something else that is at work here, not the Felix. I think he's being brave, for Harry's sake, for Lily's sake. -- Slughorn being Harry's great-grandfather doesn't negate the aloneness of Harry. JKR, Mugglenet/Leaky interview: "As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra- treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them." She doesn't say that Lily's grandparents have no importance to the plot, only that all Harry's family has been ruthlessly disposed of. Lily's parents are dead, they are not massively important to the plot, but Lily's grandparents could have been disposed of in other ways and could be important to the plot. -- Lily could have been a candidate for Slytherin House, like Harry: HBP 70-1 "Lily Evans. One of the brightest I ever taught. Vivacious, you know. Charming girl. I used to tell her she ought to have been in my House. Very cheeky answers I used to get back too...You'll be in Griffindor like her, I suppose? Yes, it usually goes in families. Not always, though...The whole Black family had been in my House, but Sirius ended up in Griffindor!" -- Slughorn notices something special about Lily; compare what he says about Tom to what he says about Lily: "Your mother was Muggle-born, of course. Couldn't believe it when I found out. Thought she must have been pure-blood, she was so good...You mustn't think I'm prejudiced! No, no, no! Haven't I just said your mother was one of my all-time favorite students?" (70-71) HBP 495 "Nonsense, couldn't be plainer you come from decent Wizarding stock, abilities like yours. No, you'll go far, Tom, I've never been wrong about a student yet." -- To close, (for the time being): Slughorn being Lily's grandfather is far more palatable than him being a dirty old man. hg. From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Aug 27 20:47:53 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:47:53 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138891 lealess: > It occurred to me that the Unbreakable Vow might > function separate from the will of the person making > the vow, i.e., that taking the Vow sets a certain > course of action in motion. houyhnhnm: Before his son Connla is born, Cuchulain tells Aifa to give him the geise that 1)he may not reveal his name; 2)he may not turn out of the way for any man; 3)he may not refuse a combat. [Who knows why.] When Connla comes to Ulster many years later, he refuses to give his name, refuses to turn aside, and finally, enters into combat with Cuchulain, who unknowingly kills his own son. It is the fulfillment of the geise, rather than their breaking which leads to the tragic outcome. On the other hand, Conary Mor fighting his foster brothers and their pirate allies, breaks all of his geise in a single night in spite of his best efforts not to (there is a supernatural element at work). He ends up besieged in the Hostel of Da Derga, appears to be winning, but is consumed with thirst as a result of his prodigious efforts in battle. He sends mac Cecht out with a golden goblet to find water. mac Cecht has to search the whole of Ireland (the lakes and rivers are enchanted to prevent him from succeeding) before he is finally able to fill the goblet. When he returns to the Hostel, Conary has already died of thirst. In both of these cases it seems to be the bestowing of the geise, and not whether they are kept or broken, that sets the course of action in motion. The second tale made me think of Harry and Dumbledore in the cave. It could be an intentional allusion or just a coincidence. From hpfgu at jdbailey.com Sat Aug 27 21:03:59 2005 From: hpfgu at jdbailey.com (profuloth) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:03:59 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138892 > Geoff: > If Quirrell had > solved the logic problem, how is it that there was still some of the > liquid in the little bottle which we are told that Harry drained at one > gulp? Now that you meantion it..it seems like Hermione should have explained the logic and then interjected "Besides, that potion is already half consumed." Also, back to the chess game that reset itself...did DD have to play a round to get to Harry? Was the chess board set to only play two rounds? Yeah...there are holes in the plot... As I'm, listening to the HBP I'm thinking that the reason people have to apperate a distance from their intended destination isn't explained that well. DD tries to pass it off as politeness when they go see Slughorn, but that doesn't eplain Narcissa & Beletrix nor does it explain the cave. From muellem at bc.edu Sat Aug 27 21:37:09 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:37:09 -0000 Subject: Forcing Voldemort's hand (was Re: Timing & the Dada position) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Jen wrote: > > I completely agree with you. I think DD gave Snape the position > > because he knew he was going to die soon and he always needed > Snape > > with him before. > > > Even if he did have proof, consider the situation. He is placing > Voldemort's "spy" in the critical DADA position. Perhaps, far from > being a way to ensure that Snape leaves at the end of the year, he > sees this as a way to force Voldemort to remove whatever curse he's > put on the position. He is, in essence, forcing Voldy's hand. > > Lupinlore but there have been two others that supported Voldemort - Quirrell(although he was just a toady & not a DE), and Barty - who Voldemort DID know was at Hogwarts - remember Voldy's big speech about his loyal DE at Hogwarts? So, why didn't Voldemort remove the DADA curse then? I think DD knows Snape will be gone at the end of the term and Dumbledore WANTS it that way. DD wants Snape full-time at the DE's lair, gathering & collection information, as well as spreading miscontent(re: Malfoys) amongst the DE's. Snape cannot just leave Hogwarts on his own - Voldemort *wants* Snape there to spy on DD. However, by the DADA curse & having Snape get the job, Voldemort has, in effect, hoisted himself on his own petard. Snape cannot stay at Hogwarts and safely returns back inside Voldemort's camp. but that is JMHO, of course colebiancardi From djklaugh at comcast.net Sat Aug 27 21:44:05 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:44:05 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138894 > Geoff: > If Quirrell had > solved the logic problem, how is it that there was still some of the > liquid in the little bottle which we are told that Harry drained at one > gulp? > Now that you meantion it..it seems like Hermione should have explained the logic and > then interjected "Besides, that potion is already half consumed." > > Also, back to the chess game that reset itself...did DD have to play a round to get to > Harry? Was the chess board set to only play two rounds? Yeah...there are holes in the > plot... > As I'm, listening to the HBP I'm thinking that the reason people have to apperate a distance > from their intended destination isn't explained that well. DD tries to pass it off as > politeness when they go see Slughorn, but that doesn't eplain Narcissa & Beletrix nor does > it explain the cave. 1-I think that the protections of the Stone would reset as long as the stone was still in its hiding place. Once it has been retrieved though they would stop being necessary for the Stone's safety and then would cease to work. This would explain the reset chess game, the full potions bottles in the logic puzzle, and the keys that were still flying. DD might have had to get past the Devil's Snare but my guess would be that the other things had just have become inert when Harry retrieved the Stone. 2-It seems to me that we have never seen anyone Apparate into a building or out of one (except at the MOM where there as specific Apparation sites). Everyone arrives or leaves outside the door of their destinations. Folks can Apparate inside a building ... like Fred and George do .... but there may be something about Apparation that precludes appearing inside of a building. Also from the Apparation lessions it is apparent that one needs to know exactly where one is going... as Twycross says "Step one: Fix your mind firmly upon the desired *destination*". One has to be able to visualize exactly where one is going... and if you have not been there before then I guess you'd best visualize a large empty field or parking lot nearby. It would probably quite horrible to Apparate into a wall. And if you are going to a building where there are other people you would not want to arrive in the same space that someone else is occupying at that moment. Deb From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 21:56:53 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:56:53 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" wrote: > It occurred to me that the Unbreakable Vow might function separate > from the will of the person making the vow, i.e., that taking the > Vow sets a certain course of action in motion. ...edited... The > Vow itself would eliminate further choice on Snape's part, even if > he did not know what he was vowing to do. The Vow would assume > agency, acting as a sort of Imperius Curse, supplanting the will of > the person who made it. > > Possible? > > lealess bboyminn: I'm not quite sure I follow. Are you saying that rather than a penalty of death for not acting, the Unbreakable Vow /compells/ a person to act in a way that fulfulls the Vow? Or, rather are you saying that the creation of a Vow sets into motion an irrevocable destiny, in a sense, implying that Dumbledore was dead the minute the Vow was made regardless of the method or cause of his death? The Options- 1.) Dumbledore, far in advance, told Snape to kill him. (which I don't believe) 2.) Dumbledore and Snape had a conversation in which Dumbledore said, if I am about to die anyway, use the occassion to your own strategic advantage. (which I do believe) 3.) Snape is DE and just flat out killed Dumbledore. (too easy in my book) 4.) Snape was forced by the Vow to take action which he strongly resisted in both body and spirit. In other words, the Vow forced Snape to kill Dumbledore. (not sure, but I have my doubts) 5.) You can read my post in - Subject: Re: Dumbledore's flawed plan - Snape's Vow http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136291 ...in which I indicate that Snape never intended to make the third Vow. Initially, he agree he would help and watch over Draco. You will note Snape sudden urge to pull away then Narcissa starts the third Vow. Unfortunatly, by then, Snape is commited, and has no choice but to follow through. However, I believe all three Vows are Riddled with loopholes. The first two are essentially meaningless because Snape only agrees to 'watch' and 'try'. In the third Vow, Snape agree to carry out the 'deed' if Draco should fail. The third Vow seems pretty air-tight, but it assumes that Snape knows what the 'deed' is when he makes the Vow. Personally, I think Snape was bluffing when he said he knew what Voldemort's plan was. I'm not even sure Voldemort's plan was complete at that point. It's possible that Voldemort assigned Draco to fix the Vanishing Cabinet so the DE's could get into the castle. Only later, as a great honor (nudge nudge wink wink), did Voldemort add killing Dumbledore to the deed. Though, I admit I can't prove that. The key point is whether Snape is bound to a Vow based on an unknown 'deed'. Can he truly Vow to a deed not knowing what the deed is, or to a deed that might be changing? Further, can later knowledge override his knowledge at the time the orginal Vow was made? In other words, is Snape bound to his knowledge at the time, or is he bound to any knowledge he may gather or suspect in the future? That's a lot of unanswered question, and I think sadly we simply don't know enough about Unbreakable Vows to answer them. When the third Vow is made, it's unlikely that Snape truly knows what he is Vowing to. Further, the 'deed' is never specified. Can Snape mold the Deed in his mind to suit his own needs? Can he, in his mind, make the deed the fixing of the Vanishing Cabinet, and not include killing Dumbledore? Without further knowledge of the nature of the Vow, I can only say that it seems possible. Also, note that no time frame is given. I suspect that making a Vow is like making a legal contract. If every little detail is not spelled out, the contract is either not binding or can be avoided. Can Snape really be bound to an unknown deed with no specific time frame? That seems a pretty weak contract. With no time frame specified, as long as Snape maintains an /intent/ to kill Dumbledore at some vague and unspecified point in the future, it would seem that he is immune to the punishment of the Vow. So, I don't think the Unbreakable Vow compells a person to act beyond that person's fear of death as the alternative. I don't believe Dumbledore conspired with Snape in advance for Snape to kill him. I do believe that Snape saw that it was too late for Dumbledore, he was dying, and as unheroic as it was, Snape maximized the situation to his best advantage. He sacrificed a dying Dumbledore for the greater good of eventually helping to destroy Voldemort. Snape was faced with two choices in that moment; to end his spying career and effectively be out of the fight, or to put himself into the superior position of becoming Voldemort right-hand man and obtaining near god-like status amoung the DE's. I think Snape made the long term choice, the choice that will utlimately bring the greatest good to all, even though that greater good was built on a tragic death. That's what it means to be a ruthless double-double agent. Part of the reason I think Snape really acted for the greater good is the constant reminders throughout this book that Dumbledore trusted Snape. To some extent that emphasis was to maximize the effect of Snape killing Dumbledore, but we must certainly see that the consequences go far beyond this book. Take Snape's emphasis near the end, that his actions were not 'cowardly' as Harry implied. It must have take great courage to kill Dumbledore knowing that others may not believe his explanation after the fact. Snape may have sent himself to prison for life in order to protect the 'cause'. That's a very herioc thing to do. So while Snape is a mean rotten nasty person and had to do a terrible thing with terrible short and long term consequences, that doesn't mean he still can't be good. Good doesn't necessarily equal nice. I think there are enough hints in the books to tell us that Snape's story is not over yet; there are many more revelations to be revealed. Also, note that given the nature of the task Harry could spend a lifetime trying to resolve the Horcrux situation. Somehow there has to be a shortcut to solving them. I suspect that shortcut will come from Snape. Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 22:00:36 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:00:36 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138896 > Betsy Hp: > Congratulations on a wicked cool name. And in celebration, do you > mind if I take a couple of practice shots at the good ship ACID > POPS? Neri: Thanks. Shoot away. > Betsy Hp: > Nowhere do I see any evidence that Snape enjoyed Narcissa falling > all over him. If he did have a hidden, secret passion for her, > shouldn't he have clutched her to his manly chest? Stared > wretchedly at her falling tears? Neri: You mean like in "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand" (HBP scholastic Ch. 2, p.36)? But what you conveniently forget is that the passion must be disguised, both inside the story from the present Bella, and in the meta-thinking level from the readers. After all, we wouldn't have this interesting discussion here had Severus crushed Cissy to his chest and pressed a Won-Won/Lav-Lav style kiss on her lips. That would be have been much too obvious. So Narcissa the temptress is disguised as Narcissa the desperate, which she really is, and Snape's passion is disguised as mere kindness and helpfulness. This is a SHIP, after all, and you need to read between the lines a bit. But ACID POPS still has many more lines to read between than LOLLIPOPS. For that matter, ACID POPS has more lines to read between than either H/G, R/H, H/C, R/T, B/F or *any* SHIP in the HP series had during the book in which the happy couple was first shown together. > > >>Neri: > > Do you remember Snape *ever* treating > > *anybody* else gently and kindly, in the whole series? > > Betsy Hp: > We've never seen him outside of Harry's presence before. Though he > *does* show a great deal of care, IMO, when he heals Draco from the > Sectumsempra. He struck me as downright maternal in that scene. > Neri: Snape had a *very* good personal motive to treat Draco carefully there. Had Draco died, or even merely came to some harm from the Sectumsempra, then Snape would be dead. In the bathroom scene Snape came within an inch of his death, and the only thing between them was Draco's well being. Except for the above well-explained case, Snape never shows even a hint of decent kindness towards Dumbledore, McGonagall, Filch or anybody *but* Narcissa. I don't see why Harry's presence should prevent him from that. > > >>Neri: > > > > He could have easily ushered Narcissa out with some vague promises > > that he'll do what he can. But no, he makes her an Unbreakable > > Vow. The BIG sacrifice. Why? > > Betsy Hp: > That's the big question, isn't it? But I have a hard time buying > the idea that Snape made the decision in a fit of passion. His face > went "blank" when Narcissa made the request. To my mind that speaks > to cool calculation (he was clear enough to hide his thoughts) > rather than heated emotion. > Neri: The blank face implies forced control, but not necessarily the lack of passion. Snape is definitely doing some very fast calculation there, but does he also calculate if undertaking this mortal obligation would finally make Narcissa love him? Snape is generally a very controlled and calculated person, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his goals are also calculated and rational. Only his tactics. I suspect Snape was well aware that Narcissa was playing on his emotions there, but he also knew that her need and desperation were very real. Snape got the same blank look that a man might get when he wonders if this is the right timing to propose to a very skittish woman he desires. > > >>Neri: > > > > Snape knew the full implications of the terrible choice he was > > making. Even Bella was speechless. So was I. > > Betsy Hp: > As a double agent Snape was > interested in keeping himself as free to move about as possible. > This Vow *restrained* him. It was too huge a decision for Snape to > make solely on the attractiveness of the person asking him. Neri: It *was* a huge decision. It was a Choice moment. And Choices like this are not made based on mere calculation, but on deep motives. Like a secret love a person had for more than twenty years and it finally has a chance to come true. > > > >>Neri: > > You won't find in his words even a hint for some good word, some > > whiff of tender emotion for Lucius. He won't say it explicitly in > > front of Narcissa, but it's obvious from his comments to Bella > > that he despises the man. > > Betsy Hp: > Really? I didn't get that read at all. Neri: Snape despising Lucius indeed depends on you reading (it's obvious enough to me, at least) but what is certain is that Snape never even hints that he owes something to Lucius. He makes an Unbreakable Vow and he never even suggests that he's doing it for his friend Lucius. > > >>Neri: > > 7. What do we know about Snape's character? The man seems to be > > obsessed with power, status and respect. It's always "I'm the > > Potions master in this school", "I will not be talked to like > > that!" "You will address me as sir", "Yes Potter, this is *my* > > job". > > > > Betsy Hp: > Considering how disrespectful Harry is of Snape (more so than to any > other adult around him - rightly or wrongly) it's not surprising > Snape is forced to say such things. Neri: But he doesn't say these things to Harry alone. He says it to Hermione, he says it to Lockhart. He says it to the Marauder's Map ("Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to yield the information you conceal!"). BTW, in the British public schools "master" meant simply "teacher", but somehow it is only Snape, of all the teachers, who insists time and again on calling himself "master". > And > especially after learning that he still lives in his muggle father's > home I don't see how that argument can be sustained. > Neri: First, was it established that this is his father's house? In any case, the existence of this house is surely a well-kept secret, or Wormtail wouldn't be using it for a hiding place. Even Bella didn't know about this house (but, interestingly, Narcissa did). > > >>Neri: > > > > Instead of using his muggle father's name, young Severus chose the > > maiden name of his pureblood mother for his self-invented nickname. > > Betsy Hp: > First of all, who knew that Snape's nickname was the half-blood > Prince? Lupin seemed totally unaware. Neri: But a secret, self-chosen nickname is likely to be much more personal and revealing than something everybody knows and uses. > Second of all, if Mrs. Black > called someone a half-blood *anything* do you really think she'd > have meant it as a complement? Neri: That's why it's secret. As I previously wrote, I think our Severus is very ambivalent and has a serious love/hate relationship with the pureblood aristocracy. After all, Narcissa must have rejected his love, and Sirius and James were also purebloods. The HBP nickname neatly symbolizes this ambivalence. > And third of all, why do you think the nickname was self-invented? Neri: Even if it wasn't, it was of enough importance for him to sign in the book that held his professional secrets. And he proclaims this nickname proudly during his final flight. "I, the Half-Blood Prince!" Isn't that a bit pathetic for a grown man? > > >>Neri: > > And this name just happened to be "Prince". > > Betsy Hp: > Exactly. Pure chance. He could have been the "half-blood Ferguson". > Neri: Yeah, sure. And Remus Lupin and Sirius Black, these names are also pure chance. And I won't even start about Newt Scamander and his many friends. > > Betsy Hp: > First of all, there is no wizard nobility. That gets established > early on in the HBP. Neri: Er... can you quote the canon for that? The rich purebloods certainly think of themselves as nobility. In 12GP there's a family tree entitled "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" and a book named "Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Geneology". > > A slightly better wardrobe? Shampoo? Seriously, if anyone seems *less* concerned > with rank it's Severus Snape. > Neri: Heh, are we talking about that guy who sweeps around importantly in black robes (which none of the other teachers apparently wears) and constantly sneers down his nose? > Betsy Hp: > This is the weakest part of ACID POPS, IMO. Because I see little > plot reason for Snape to be madly in love with Narcissa. Neri: Excuse me! The entire HPfGU list is in upheaval searching for Snape's reason to do such a stupid thing as undertaking the Unbreakable Vow, and I have yet to see an explanation that comes even *close* to Snape being madly in love with Narcissa. > It seems > to add more confusion to the plot than any sort of clarity, to my > mind. And with only one book remaining I think JKR is going for > clarity. > Neri: I think it depends mainly on what *sort* of clarity you hope JKR is going for. If Snape is to be a hero and a triple agent who is totally on the side of Good, then perhaps LOLLIPOPS makes more sense (although still falling much short of explaining everything that needs to be explained). But if Snape is a complex character wavering between Good and Evil then ACID POPS goes a lot to explain his ambivalence towards the DEs camp as well as him undertaking the Unbreakable Vow. > LOLLIPOPS, on the other hand, provides a possible motive for Snape > leaving Voldemort and joining with Dumbledore. Neri: First, you treat "Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with Dumbledore" as a given, while right now it is in considerable doubt. Second, even assuming for a moment that it *is* a given, ACID POPS can explain it as well as LOLLIPOPS. Snape "joining with Dumbledore" must have occurred not long after Narcissa married Lucius. Severus' last hopes were shattered, and he secretly joined Dumbledore in desperate hope that Voldy will lose, Lucius will get killed, and Snape would become the hero of the winning side while Cissy would be free again. > And it's bangy, > especially from Harry's POV. Neri: And ACID POPS isn't bangy? Just think of what Draco will do when he finds out. And Lucius and Snape meeting at dawn, wands at twenty paces? And whom would Narcissa prefer? And what would Snape do if it turns out Voldy still wants the Malfoys dead? And remember, the S/N SHIP doesn't depend anymore on Harry's POV. One additional chapter that isn't from Harry's POV would be enough for all the BANG and clarity we will ever need. > So, if there's to be any sort of ship > for our Severus, I think the good ship LOLLIPOPS is the one to beat. Neri: ACID POPS is equal or beats LOLLIPOPS in either canon, theme, plot considerations, BANGiness, and you-name-it. The only thing ACID POPS can't supply is that wistful image of NobleHero!Snape, sacrificing himself in the ungrateful role of a triple agent all for the love of a woman who is fifteen years dead. Neri pops another ACID POP Extra Strength into his mouth and gropes blindly for the ice water. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 22:25:11 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:25:11 -0000 Subject: The function of Chapter Two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138897 > >>Lupinlore: > This is yet *another* look at Chapter Two, "Spinner's End." > Please bear with me. Most of the discussions of this subject seem > to be concerned with what this reveals about Snape's character, > and then what it means for the plot. However, HBP is a radically > plot-driven book, much more so than OOTP, at any rate. Many of > the criticisms of it, in fact, seem to be that the plot determines > the character in HBP, rather than the other way around -- which > would be more believable and better writing. Betsy Hp: Ah, Lupinlore, how I love thee. I know, I know, you've read cereal boxes better written than the drivel JKR churns out. However, I would suggest that there's a great deal of character development within HBP, not least of which involves Snape. (I, myself, saw no evidence of any of the players acting out of character.) > >>Lupinlore: > So, what function does Chapter Two provide for the plot? > Particularly, what do we get out of Chapter Two we *only* get out > of Chapter Two and nowhere else? > Betsy Hp: The most readily apparent thing we get, IMO, is the Death Eaters' view of Snape. This is something folks on the list (myself included) have been wondering about for some time. (In many ways, I think, Bellatrix stood in for the average reader; she asked all the questions folks had been asking since the first book.) I recall huge discussions about whether or not Snape was a spy, and how he could possibly be taken seriously as a loyal Death Eater if he was. This chapter answered those questions definitively, IMO. Yes, Snape is a spy and yes, he's considered a loyal member of the Death Eaters by Voldemort. Answering those questions was important both for the character development of Snape and for the plot. The denouement on the Astronomy Tower would have been that much more confusing if we hadn't had the set-up of this chapter. > >>Lupinlore: > Well, we learn about the Unbreakable Vow, but that isn't anything > we don't hear about anywhere else. Harry hears Snape talking > about it with Draco and Ron explains it, so the vow as such is > simply redundant info. Betsy Hp: Not so. We, the readers, know for certain that a Vow has been made. And we know exactly what the Vow asks of Snape. Both Draco and Ron seem to think Snape might be lying. We, the readers, know that he is not. > >>Lupinlore; > We get the explanation from Snape's side of his return to > Dumbledore. However, the basic facts of this are repeated at the > end of the book, and so that once again is redundant. Betsy Hp: We get the Death Eater version of Snape's tale in this chapter (and only this chapter). Towards the end of HBP, Dumbledore shares a small (very, very, small, IMO) bit of the Order version of Snape's tale. Especially considering the fact that Snape is indeed a double agent it's very important that we know both sides if we're to follow his part of the story, if we're to understand any of Snape's motivations, and if we're to understand any of the actions Snape takes. > >>Lupinlore: > We get a few "backfills" that help explain plot holes and > contradictions (e.g. Quirrell), but those seem mainly to be just > housekeeping items. Betsy Hp: Well, yes. Exactly. JKR is tying up some loose ends. It needs to be done and she uses Bellatrix's doubts to do it. I'd also add that since there *were* explanations of the so-called plot holes, they're not really plot holes or contradictions in the end. > >>Lupinlore: > What we DO get here that we don't get anywhere else in the whole > book, or the whole series for that matter, is a look at Snape when > Harry isn't around. We see the circumstances of his life >(evidently not too good)... Betsy Hp: And see, I thought Snape had a pretty sweet set-up going on. All those lovely books... > >>Lupinlore: > ...and the way he interacts with some key characters > (Narcissa, Bellatrix, Wormtail). I think THIS is the key to the > chapter -- particularly since JKR has hinted that Wormtail still > has a role to play, and that Harry sparing him will be very > important. > I'm not predicting, but I am guessing, that the purpose of this > chapter was to reveal the relationship between Wormtail and Snape, > and possibly to hint at something between Snape and Narcissa. Betsy Hp: I do agree that Snape's relationship with the various players will be of utmost importance. I think his relationship with the Malfoy family (no ACID POPS sailor, me) will be important. And yes, Wormtail's presence in this chapter will no doubt be of some importance in the final book. > >>Lupinlore: > > However, IF Wormtail is to be important the fact that he has been > working for Snape hints at a Snape that is not completely on > Harry's side. Betsy Hp: Did you get the impression that Wormtail was working for Snape? I got the feeling that Wormtail was working for Voldemort. The whole lack of trust, one Death Eater spying on another, thing. However, I do think the fact that Voldemort's compromised spy (Wormtail) is within easy reach of Voldemort's betrayer (Snape) is certainly worth noting. > >>Lupinlore: > Mostly I am influenced by my firm belief that bringing Snape down > clearly on either side would be a contrived and poorly written > ending, at this point. Betsy Hp: You'd want JKR to leave Snape's story hanging? Wouldn't *not* finishing the story be bad writing? Or are you saying you'd prefer Snape to be more like the Ministry, on neither side, more of a monkey wrench than anything else? Personally (and I do realize this is personal preference we're talking about here, so I'm not trying to persuade you) I feel like JKR has done such a good job on building the mystery of Snape I really, really want a definitive answer at the end of the story. > >>Lupinlore: > But anyway, to return to my main theme, I think what most of us > have been focusing on - the Unbreakable Vow and the circumstances > of Snape taking it - is only a blind. > > I think the real information that will be important is how Snape > relates to Wormtail. > Betsy Hp: I think it's highly important that we saw that Snape actually *has* a relationship with Wormtail. But I also think his relationship with the Malfoy family (as revealed in this chapter) will play an important role in the next book as well. So I think Spinner's End accomplishes a great deal. It gives us some much needed insight into one of Potterverse's more ambiguous characters. It answers some of our more basic questions regarding Snape's role. It sets up Dumbledore's death. And I'm willing to bet it sets up some stuff we'll see played out in book 7. (Well done, JKR! ) Betsy Hp From muellem at bc.edu Sat Aug 27 22:30:17 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:30:17 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Neri: > ACID POPS is equal or beats LOLLIPOPS in either canon, theme, > plot considerations, BANGiness, and you-name-it. The only thing ACID > POPS can't supply is that wistful image of NobleHero!Snape, > sacrificing himself in the ungrateful role of a triple agent all for > the love of a woman who is fifteen years dead. I have to say... what people will do for a ship - LOL. Somehow, I can not see Snape wasting away for either a dead person(Lily) or for a very married woman(Cissa) for 15 years. I can't see Snape turning his back on Voldemort because he wanted to *win* Cissa's love, her being a pureblood and a Voldemort supporter - I mean, talk about a way to woo a woman - join the other side that she is on!! I can't see Snape turning his back on LV for a married woman with a newborn baby who is married to his childhood nemesis, either. Somehow, with what we know about Snape and his steadfast loyality to Dumbledore(or at least I think it is steadfast), I think he turned because a lightbulb went off in his head. He joined the DE's at a young age - I am sure he was recruited by Lucius(whom Cissa reminds Snape that he is a friend) right after Hogwarts. A few years later, he realized that what Voldemort was doing was wrong - remember, Sirius even said this about wizards who initially supported Voldemort, turned against him once they found out what LV really wanted to do. Snape is a smart man, I think all of us agree on that, regardless if you think he is evil or good. Love blinds us and I cannot think that Snape was ever blinded by love - hate, yes(re: Sirius & James, but they were his bete noire). I think that 15 years is more than enough time to get over unrequited love, if there ever was any feelings of *love* on Snape's part. I believe he took the UV because he knew what was going to happen down the line, based on the recent events that happened to Dumbledore. I am sure that DD & Snape had some discussions around this prior to the UV and based on the speculation of the conversation in the forest, Snape wasn't all on board with the final doings. Taking the UV wasn't going to cost him anything to do so, and it would gain the trust of the Malfoy's if he took it. It also splits the DE's camp - the Malfoy's owe Snape big time now. again, JMHO colebiancardi From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 22:35:23 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:35:23 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138899 > Neri: > But he doesn't say these things to Harry alone. He says it to > Hermione, he says it to Lockhart. He says it to the Marauder's Map > ("Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to > yield the information you conceal!"). BTW, in the British public > schools "master" meant simply "teacher", but somehow it is only Snape, > of all the teachers, who insists time and again on calling himself > "master". Alla: Indeed, I was so glad that in HBP JKR finally called the other teacher " master" and yes, I never heard him insisting on being called so in class. "The tiny little Charms master was bobbing his way towards them..."- HBP, p.515. > > > > Betsy Hp: > > First of all, there is no wizard nobility. That gets established > > early on in the HBP. > > Neri: > Er... can you quote the canon for that? The rich purebloods certainly > think of themselves as nobility. In 12GP there's a family tree > entitled "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" and a book named > "Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Geneology". Alla: OK, since I am providing some additional quotes, I am hoping that I am not doing complete " me too" post, Neri. :-) I think Betsy meant this quote ( sorry, if I am wrong): "There are no Wizarding princes," said Lupin, now smiling." - HBP, p.336 But again, I agree with you Neri - I think "pureblood" does equal "nobility" in their minds and I don't remember that being disproved. > > Neri pops another ACID POP Extra Strength into his mouth and gropes > blindly for the ice water. Alla, who even though will not dismiss LOLLIPOPS completely , would definitely try ACID POP From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 22:44:58 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:44:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Forcing Voldemort's hand (was Re: Timing & the Dada position) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138900 "but there have been two others that supported Voldemort - Quirrell(although he was just a toady & not a DE), and Barty - who Voldemort DID know was at Hogwarts - remember Voldy's big speech about his loyal DE at Hogwarts? So, why didn't Voldemort remove the DADA curse then?" I think that Voldemort was extreamly weak during that time and might not have been ABLE to remove the jinx. Can it be removed? We don't know - all we know is that its there and it got all the DADA professors. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 23:47:19 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:47:19 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have to do.... In-Reply-To: <63378ee70508270653b850784@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > where do you think the phoenix has gone? JKR says she can't tell > us. Almost anyone can just come to Hogwarts and claim Fawkes if he's > just gone to a new owner. Except for the one owner he can have who's > loyal but on the run at the moment, someone who needs protection > more than any of them. Snape. Welcome, nice post, and my goodness what a visual: Harry, "meet[ing] Severus Snape along the way" and raising his wand, intending to maim or murder him, prevented only by the sudden appearance of Fawkes :popping: in to shield Snape and get in Harry's way. (I also like this as a mirror image of the scene where Buckbeak flies at Snape to protect Harry.) What would Harry do? A whiplashing reevaluation on the subject of Snape? Assume Fawkes had been co-opted by Voldemort? (Can an animal be Imperio!ed? The spider could.) Suspect Fawkes wasn't Fawkes but someone or something transfigured or polyjuiced to look like Fawkes? (The polyjuice potion, containing a single phoenix feather...) "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, "so much the better for me, so much the worse for him." Then I had to go back and find this. Harry was remarkably unspecific about what he would do when and if he encountered Snape. Contrast it with what Harry said about Snape teaching DADA and the jinx on the job: "Personally, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed* for another death..." (Harry got one, didn't he...just not the one he hoped for! I can't help thinking this is another illustration of irony, as in "Be careful what you wish for" and "Do unto (and wish upon) others as you would have others do unto you (and those you love)." Sandy aka msbeadsley *Wizards cross their fingers? How interesting! From lealess at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 00:43:27 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:43:27 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138902 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > I'm not quite sure I follow. Are you saying that rather.. a penalty > of death for not acting, the Unbreakable Vow /compells/ a person to > act in a way that fulfulls the Vow? Or, rather are you saying .. the > creation of a Vow sets into motion..irrevocable destiny, in a sense, > implying that Dumbledore was dead the minute the Vow was made > regardless of the method or cause of his death? > < MASSIVE SNIP OF ALL I AGREE WITH, and thank you for putting so well! I am suggesting that the Vow is its own agent, it cannot be broken, it has a will of its own to completion. If the Vow made Dumbledore's death inevitable... then it would be like the DADA curse: within the space of one year, regardless of who was in the position, the curse worked to fulfill itself and eliminate the professor. (Houyhnhnm in post 138891 gave an interesting parallel to the geise, a magical injunction that seems to bind individuals to a certain outcome.) I guess what I am saying is that Snape made his choice when he made the Vow, and after that, he was unable to make a further choice about whether or not to complete Draco's mission. The Vow, and the alignment of all the players in the Astronomy Tower, negated Snape's will. As for death: had Snape tried to kill Dumbledore, but failed, then Snape might have died. But, given the circumstances in the tower, i.e., the revelation of Draco's task and his obvious failure, the Vow gave Snape no choice but to try to kill Dumbledore or die trying... is what I am saying. I agree that the Vow was not a legal contract. First of all, who is are the contracting parties? Snape and ... Fate, on behalf of the Malfoys? Who will exact punishment if Snape fails to fulfill the contract? Not Narcissa or Bella, certainly. Once you bring Fate into it, then the Unbreakability of the Vow seems even more likely. Assuming it was a contract of some kind, in my world, the elements of a contract are the making of an offer, the acceptance of the offer, and existence of some kind of consideration. Factoring into this are capacity to enter into the contract (Snape wasn't crazy, but he might not have been firing on all cylinders), legality of the contract (they weren't dealing drugs, but if death was involved, it was probably illegal), whether it is in a proper form (the binder-rings of fire thing seems to cinch that), and probably something I am forgetting, as I am not an attorney. Making of an offer: will you make a vow? He thought the vow was to look after Draco and see that Draco comes to no harm. Acceptance: taking the vow? How valid if the tasks are not spelled out specifically? Consideration: Malfoy gratitude? Chance to be a big man? Or more likely, from Snape's point of view, a chance to receive critical information on Voldemort's plans. In any event, consideration is not explicitly discussed. There wasn't really a "meeting of the minds" in the formation of the contract, if a Vow is a contract (in my world, a pledge is a contract). As you noted, the third part of the Vow was unknown. Yet, all parties were adults and all contracts involve risk. Hmm... Snape might have been able to challenge the contract in a court. Which court has the authority to overrule an Unbreakable Vow? The court of Fate (or Death)? I think the Vow was extra-legal, existing in the world of magic, not law. Hope I've been able to express this clearly. I feel like the Luna Lovegood of posters, most times. lealess From lliannanshe at comcast.net Sun Aug 28 00:54:35 2005 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:54:35 -0000 Subject: 12 Grimauld Place and the Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138903 Finwitch said: Dumbledore was never present at 12 Grimmauld Place so far as I know. Lliannanshe: OOP CHP6 "The thought that Dumbledore had been in the house on the eve of his hearing and not asked to see him made him feel, if it were possible, even worse." ..thought you ought to know. From anezat at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 02:09:19 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 02:09:19 -0000 Subject: Character Development in HBP (was: The function of Chapter Two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138904 >Lupinlore wrote: >Many of the criticisms of it, in fact, seem to be that the plot >determines the character in HBP, rather than the other way around -- >which would be more believable and better writing. > Betsy Hp wrote: >However, I would suggest that there's a great deal of character >development within HBP, not least of which involves Snape. (I, >myself, saw no evidence of any of the players acting out of >character.) > Angela replies: Even though I too believe that HBP is essentially a plot-driven book, as I commented in an earlier post today, I agree that Snape's character is given more dimension in HBP. I like seeing him away from Hogwart's. I also think we see another side of Draco. I actually feel sorry for him when he's facing DD trying to kill this great wizard. But other characters are given short shrift. What happened to Neville and Luna and even Ron and Hermione. Ginny is given more room, but I feel that was somewhat at the expense of other characters. I also feel sort of sad about the heavy-handed treatment of Fred and George's role in Draco's plans to kill DD and introduce DEs to the school. I don't anyone is suggesting that her characters are acting out of character by saying the book is plot- driven, simply that the novel is propelled forward by action - things happening in the real world - as opposed to a character- driven novel which may have less action, or action may be secondary to the inner workings or psychological and emotional development of a character, as in Harry in OOTP. I was surprised that HBP seemed so different from GOF and OOTP in this way. I am not suggesting that JKR is a poor writer by any means. Quite the opposite - I don't think that Books 4 & 5 happened out of nowhere. I absolutely loved both of those books. I think that JKR had certain points she had to make with this book as she is nearing the end of the series, and she got a lot of criticism for the length of Book 5, so it is easier to deliver the goods with an exciting story and a good plot. Think of all the best sellers from authors like John Grisham who do just that. The books are fast-paced and fun to read, but who really remembers the characters 2 months later. Now I don't think HBP is as bad as that, but I had hoped for more. Angela From lolita_ns at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 00:10:24 2005 From: lolita_ns at yahoo.com (lolita_ns) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:10:24 -0000 Subject: Where was Snape during the third task? In-Reply-To: <20050827023946.55025.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > I've been looking in GoF for any hints of where Snape could have been. > > "We are going to be patrolling the outside of the maze," said Professor McGonagall to the champions. "If you get into difficulty, and wish to be rescued, send red sparks into the air, and one of us will come and get you, do you understand?" (GoF Ch 31 The Third Task). I asume that all the teachers were patrolling.< Well no, actually. Look at this: "Hagrid, Professor Moody, Professor McGonagall, and Professor Flitwick came walking into the stadium and approached Bagman and the champions. They were wearing large, red, luminous stars on their hats, all except Hagrid, who had his on the back of his moleskin vest." (GoF 31) These are the only teachers who come into the stadium. And as for where SS's been, I have no idea. Lolita. From j_samudio at hotmail.com Sat Aug 27 06:28:57 2005 From: j_samudio at hotmail.com (Jo Marelvy Samudio) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:28:57 -0000 Subject: The graveyard at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138906 I remember an interview with Alfonso Cuar?n (director - HPand the POA) in which he was talking about his interaction with JKR. He stated that when he wanted to place some action (scene) in the hogwarts grounds (I believe Hermione vs Draco), he -Cuar?n- asked for JKR's opinion, and she said that it could not be done at the north (? - I'm not sure about that)because there IS a graveyard in that part of the grounds and that it was highly significant!!! (Which by the way has never been mentioned in the books (or I might be wrong?). If there is indeed a graveyard there, who's buried there? The three founders that most ususally agreed (Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff and Gryfffindor)? Will Dumbledore's grave be there? Is there any chance that any of the still-missing Horcruxes be there? Will Harry have to go back to Hogwarts to pay a visit to such graveyard? Will Harry be able to contact Dumbledore there somehow? What do you make of this? From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 03:09:34 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:09:34 -0000 Subject: The graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138907 "Jo Marelvy Samudio" wrote: > I remember an interview with Alfonso Cuar?n (director - HPand the > POA) > in which he was talking about his interaction with JKR. He stated > that > when he wanted to place some action (scene) in the hogwarts grounds > (I > believe Hermione vs Draco), he -Cuar?n- asked for JKR's opinion, > and > she said that it could not be done at the north (? - I'm not sure > about > that)because there IS a graveyard in that part of the grounds and > that > it was highly significant!!! (snip) Will Dumbledore's grave be > there? Ginger: That bugged me on my first reading of the book. MM says that DD wants to be laid to rest at Hogwarts, but that it is up to the Ministry as *no other headmaster or headmistress has ever... (she trails off here). So if there is a graveyard there, who's buried in it? Surely the founders would count as heads. If it isn't done for heads, then it must not be for teachers too. Students would be buried with family, which leaves....House Elves? Unless merfolk have a "burial at land". ;) I'd like some info on that as well. *reference US p.629. OH! A last-second thought! What if the founders are buried there and one of them has a tombstone that is a horcrux? Right under DD's nose! Nah, he'd probably have found it. Oh, well. Ginger, finally caught up after 2 weeks of behindness From anezat at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 02:55:48 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 02:55:48 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, and DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138908 As I was reading through the posts about Snape and the DADA position, something I realized something. We never see Harry and Snape interact in DADA class in HBP. Up until now we have always seen Harry and Snape in Potions. We saw a lot of Harry in Divination. We saw a lot of Harry in DADA with Lupin, Moody/Crouch, and Umbridge. We saw Harry a fair amount in Magical Creatures. Harry's other classes never really contained important scenes. We always got a little of Harry in Charms, Transfiguration, and Herbology, but there was not much conflict going on. I just think it's interesting that Snape has been dying for (or maybe killing for) this job, and Harry excels in DADA. Why don't we see some of the action here? It has to be hard for Snape that Harry has done pretty well in the subject up to now (excepting of course with nonverbal type work). I would have loved to have seen those classes. Angela From shgupta83 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 02:44:02 2005 From: shgupta83 at yahoo.com (shgupta83) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 02:44:02 -0000 Subject: "An old man's mistakes" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138909 QueenJennifer wrote: I know that this topic has been touched on many, many times, but it just seems that JKR was preparing us all through HBP for what Snape did. Not that any of us expected for him to kill Dumbledore, mind you, but for the fact that Dumbledore could have been mistaken about him. He made several comments about, "an old man's mistakes.......", but you thought he was always just referring to Harry. He always said he had no question as to where Snape's loyalties lie, but never said why. I could be way off on this idea, but I was just wondering..... shgupta: I think in HBP, JKR wants us to believe that Dumbledore is capable of making mistakes. But as she said, they were 'an old man's mistakes'. In regards to Dumbledore in his earlier years, I think he was much less prone to making these mistakes and we saw evidence of this when Voldemort attempted to get the DADA position. We are led to believe throughout the series that Dumbledore is very forgiving and likes to give second chances, but in this instance he refused Voldemort the chance to teach. In all of Dumbledore's generosity and willingness to give second chances, he also knows when not to trust an individual. Which is why I think he was not tricked or mistaken when he hired Snape. The scene with voldemort trying to get the DADA position showed that Dumbledore when to trust and when not to trust certain individuals. All this goes back to Snape being on the right side and Dumbledore being justified in trusting him. Shgupta From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 28 03:55:15 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:55:15 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138910 Mimbeltonia: > I keep seeing people wondering about the significance of Harry > having Lily's eys. I thought that was already obvious from the HPB, > but maybe I misunderstood JKR's hint completely. > The _significance_ (to the plot!) of his eyes looking exactly like > his mother's is the effect looking into Harry's (Lily's)imploring > eyes has on Slughorn, whose favourite student she once were: He > can not resist, and Harry receives the vital information, the > horcrux memory. Jen: After speculating about the significance of Lily's and Harry's eyes so much, the idea of the Slughorn scene being IT would seriously disappoint me (I'm totally biased, but hey, until JKR says 'that's it, folks' I'm holding out hope ). I think there are two parts to the mystery of the eyes, and one is foreshadowed in the Slughorn scene. Meeting Slughorn, Harry finally got to interact with someone who knew Lily and actually wanted to talk about her! Petunia is so tight- lipped, and James' friends barely mention her while tripping over themselves to tell Harry what a great guy James was (or in Snape's case, what a loser he was). Can't blame them, really, but they've offered no hope for learning more about the woman behind the Sacrificial Mother. Turns out she was cheeky, fun, smart and charming. So Slughorn was the beginning of the Lily story, and he saw enough of Lily in Harry to give him that memory. But he didn't know Lily like a friend or family member would, and I think Harry having Lily's eyes is going to open up the floodgates in the last book. There are two people I would love to see identify Lily inside Harry and no, neither is Snape ;). Both are slightly unlikely candidates, though. One is Alice Longbottom, if she could recover enough to tell Harry about Lily. Not only would it be a satisfying ending for Neville to know one of his parents, it wouldn't be a stretch to discover these two women in such similar circumstances became friends. The other even *more* unlikely candidate, if that's possible when comparing her to a woman considerd insane(!), is Petunia. It seems like her facade is slowly cracking. First came the look on her face when she heard Voldemort returned, the look which forcibly reminded Harry Petunia was Lily's sister. Then in HBP, Petunia was 'oddly flushed' after Dumbledore called the Dursleys on the carpet for mistreating Harry. I really think, no matter how unlikely it seems, Petunia will finally put aside her hatred of Lily during some incident when Harry reminds her of Lily. Nothing elaborate, just *something*. Valky: > On to Harry's eyes. I don't mean to shoot down this line of > reasoning.(I *really* don't), but I distinctly remember a quote > from JKR(pertaining to some artworks of Harry without his glasses > on) in which Jo implies that Harry's eyes are a weakness rather > than a strength. >I haven't really got an answer as to the significance of Harry's > eyes,as a vulnerability. But he certainly gets blinded a lot in > the books. I have speculated on that before and got nowhere but > it's the only specific eye vulnerability I found in Harry. And it > doesn't seem to have much to do with Lily. So I'll leave it with > you, maybe something will turn up this time :D Jen: Here's the quote from Reader's Digest in 2000: She's thrilled with Stephen Fry's taped version of the books, outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his vulnerability?" I reprinted it exactly becuase I think *maybe* JKR slipped up there. She refers to the Italian dust jacket in several other interviews and only mentions it as 'annoying' because she suspected they didn't like a hero with glasses. Only in that one interview does she mention Harry's vulnerability. Was it a mistake on the part of the magazine? Well, no lawsuit yet!! So maybe a mistake on the part of JKR. There are theories of course, here are a couple speculating about the 12 uses of dragon blood and how a potion or ointment of dragon blood was used to protect Harry, rendering him defenseless in the same area that dragons are (from Sirius' comment in GOF): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83354 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128717 Besides being involved in these theories personally *ahem*, I like the mythological connection to Achilles. Possibly the vulnerabilty isn't so elaborate, and is something more along the lines of Harry losing his glasses and not being able to 'see' something critically important for later on. That's not as exciting as the dragon blood theories of course . Well, that's all I'm coming up with, maybe someone else can pick up this speculation and run with it? Jen R., also intrigued by hemione gallo's theory Petunia and Lily are half-sisters, which would explain why they look so different when JKR typically depicts siblings looking alike. Still thinking about this one, hg! From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 04:22:38 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:22:38 -0000 Subject: Malice and Ulterior Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138911 Sinaz wrote: ...We know that Marvelo's ring had, "a terrible curse on it. Had it not been..for my own produgious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned, I might not have lived to tell the tale." After that, it would be logical for DD/Snape to have a "worst case scenerio" conversation. You know there's a good chance that one of these is going to kill me. If so, you *must* promise you will continue the Horcrux search. It's the most important task, and Harry's too important to the final 1/7 of LV's soul to leave the whole search up to him. You're the best man for the job, etc. Part of that conversation may have also been...under no circumstances can I fall into enemy hands. vmonte: I'm sure that Snape does know about the horcruxes but not because Dumbledore told him about them. According to Dumbledore, only he and Harry know about the horcruxes. Vivian From sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 28 04:24:09 2005 From: sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan1) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:24:09 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, and DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Angela" wrote: Angela: As I was reading through the posts about Snape and the DADA position, something I realized something. We never see Harry and Snape interact in DADA class in HBP. Up until now we have always seen Harry and Snape in Potions. We saw a lot of Harry in Divination. We saw a lot of Harry in DADA with Lupin, Moody/Crouch, and Umbridge. *snip* I just think it's interesting that Snape has been dying for (or maybe killing for) this job, and Harry excels in DADA. Why don't we see some of the action here? *snip* Sue(hpfan): The only two references we have to Harry in DADA (that I recall) are when Harry is writing an essay for Snape and knows he will do poorly because he disagrees with Snape about the way to deal with a dementor. "Harry fully expected to receive low marks on this, because he had disagreed with Snape on the best way to tackle dementors, but he did not care:..." US HBP 448. I saw that as a statement that in the Newt level class, Harry was very close to Snape's equal. In the beginning of the book, Harry is disgusted by the way Snape talks about the Dark Arts and Hermione points out that he sounds a lot like Harry. Harry took this as a great compliment, mostly because Hermione viewed something Harry had said as worth remembering. (HBP US 180). Also on this page, Harry is able to effectively block Snape's attempt to jinx him. It seems to me JKR was showing them as very close in ability, and therefore there would be little of the cat and mouse of the potions classes. Harry was too good. Sue(hpfan) who will state right here that she is aware that at the end of HBP, in a real battle, Snape far outstripped Harry in his ability to jinx and block jinxes. I still think they are basically equally skilled. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 28 04:40:24 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:40:24 -0000 Subject: trapdoor from upper floor to basement / Harry's crossed fingers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138913 Derek wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138856 : << (And on a lesser, possibly related, note... if the trap door Fluffy guards is on the third floor, then when the trio go through it, shouldn't they just end up on the second floor instead of deep below the castle?) >> Apparently LOTS of passageways and stairways (and why not trapdoors?) at Hogwarts take shortcuts throught what television likes to call 'the fourth dimension', which IMHO is how staircases could 'le[a]d somewhere different on a Friday' (PS/SS). I'm too lazy to search canon just now for more examples of stairways that take one flight from xth to (x-2)th floor, etc. Ms *Beadsley* wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138901 : << what Harry said about Snape teaching DADA and the jinx on the job: "Personally, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed* for another death..." >> Put in by JKR to disprove those who stated that Draco is irredeemable because he wished that Granger would be the next to be killed by the monster. << *Wizards cross their fingers? How interesting! >> Just because Harry crosses his fingers doesn't mean that wizards do -- Harry could have picked up the habit in his Muggle youth. But probably wizards do cross their fingers; they keep picking up Muggle customs (steam engine railroad, wireless, blue jeans), presumably from Muggle-born and Half-blood dorm-mates. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 28 05:05:16 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:05:16 -0000 Subject: Obsession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138914 > SSSusan: > I agree with you that this obsession with Draco DID distract > Harry. OTOH, I have to wonder about this particular part of > the obsession "message." You're right that it distracted Harry, > slowed down the process DD was working on with Harry, but for once > it turned out Harry was RIGHT. So was it bad to have obsessed > about Draco? Betsy Hp: > This raises an interesting question (at least, IMO). Yes, Harry was > right about Draco, but did his interest or obsession help anything > at all? IOW, would anything have gone down differently if Harry > *had not* been so obsessed with Draco? > The only things that would not have occured, at least as far as I > can tell, would have been the times Harry confronted Draco: the > train incident, the Apparation lesson, and the fight in the > bathroom. Which leads to another question: Was there any benefit > (or will there be any benefit) from those three confrontations? JenR: You know, both of you are right . Like Susan said, Harry was *right* in the end, which doesn't happen often for the poor guy. This storyline was a continuation of OOTP with no one trusting his story. Maybe the lesson for Harry was he can trust his instincts again after being so wrong about Sirius. Betsy's point is true, too--Harry's obsession and being right didn't matter in the context of HBP. I tend to think something will be important in Book 7, but maybe it will be some piece of information Harry learned while tailing Draco. Or more foreboding, something Kreacher overheard. Kreacher could have seen or heard something Dobby dismissed as unimportant (seeing as Dobby was mired in his own obsession at the time and not sleeping ). Will it be important we saw Snape healing Draco after Sectumsempra? Or was that useful only to show why DD wanted Severus after destroying the ring and drinking the potion? SSSusan: > Could it also be that DD was so focused/obsessed because he KNEW > time was short? We still can't agree around here on whether the > green goo was killing DD anyway, I know, but there are also > members who think that the ring hx damage was also slowly > weakening & perhaps killing DD. Did DD know that, green goo or > not, his days were numbered? Is that why he was so single-mindedly > focused on the horcruxes? Betsy Hp: > That's what I think. I think Dumbledore spent the entire book dying > and preparing for his death. It explains the feeling of hurry, > hurry, hurry, Dumbledore consistently expressed. It explains why he > put his most trusted spy in a position guaranteed to take him from > his side (which in turn explains why it was so important Slughorn > come back to Hogwarts). It explains why he had his "final words" > with the Dursleys, setting Harry up for his final stay and getting > a few things off his chest. And it also explains why Dumbledore > felt the need to go after the horcrux in the cave that night, > despite Harry's warning about Draco having succeeded at something > dangerous. Jen: DD also told the Dursleys, 'until we meet again'. There was a sense of finality until he made that comment. My thought was the destruction of his hand made him realize how deadly and risky hunting Horcruxes was. Even if he wasn't actually dying throughout the book, the threat of death was hovering over him as long as he pursued the Horcruxes. Another thought, though. If Valky is right and destroying a Horcrux requires a life sacrifice, then Snape did only delay DD's death. That would tie in nicely with Sirius taking the locket through the veil with him. After all, Dumbledore said he didn't know which Horcrux was hidden in the cave. He wouldn't expect it to be the locket if he knew Sirius took care of that one. There are holes in this idea though, like who died for the diary--Memory!Tom? And if JKR spends a bunch of pages on the locket that still leaves quite a few Horcruxes to deal with. Pffft. Too confusing to figure out tonight. Another thought on Dumbledore's obsessive focus: Maybe he learned Voldemort was checking on his Horcruxes or thinking about moving them after he discovered his diary was destroyed. The way Dumbledore tells the story in the Horcrux chapter, it sounds like Voldemort may have let on to Lucius (and thus Snape) why he was so furious about the loss of the diary. Page 508 of the Scholastic version. > >>Jen: > > You know, I just realized something--we didn't get our > > Dumbledore explanation at the end of HBP. Wah. > >>SSSusan: > Wah, indeed! :-( And we won't get one in Book 7 either. The most > we can hope for, I suppose, are bottled memories for the pensieve > or for portrait-talk, but it's not the same, is it? Betsy Hp: > Maybe that will be the final sign of Harry's adulthood. He'll wrap > it all up for us at the end of book 7, and then offer us a lemon >drop. :) Jen: Awww, I like that Betsy! Then I won't miss DD so much. :) Jen R., since we have a new Jen on the board From midnightowl6 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 02:52:19 2005 From: midnightowl6 at hotmail.com (P J) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:52:19 -0400 Subject: What indicates to me that Slughorn is related to Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138915 I'm a new member so please excuse me if the ideas in this post have already been discussed. :) >JKR, Mugglenet/Leaky interview: "As a writer, it was more >interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather >ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. IMO Slughorn could not possibly be related to Harry and here's why. By JKR consistently declaring (both in interviews as well as in the books themselves) since book 1 that Harry's _entire_ family - all but Petunia - are dead, she's left herself absolutely no wiggle room to throw in a surprise relative this late in the storyline. Her doing so now would be a betrayal and I believe she's much too smart to do something so unnecessary. >-- To close, (for the time being): Slughorn being Lily's grandfather >is far more palatable than him being a dirty old man. Might I suggest a possible third option? Slughorn is a renowned collector of the talented, famous and influential. He's attempted to get Harry into his inner circle since their ride on the Hogwarts Express but Harry has refused the bait over and over again. How better to win over an orphaned child than to heap lavish praise on one of his parents and then compare Harry to this incredibly wonderful, charming, brilliant person? I believe this would be in character for a Slytherin since the surest way to their heart is first and foremost by way of their ego :) PJ From merylanna at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 02:54:41 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "An old man's mistakes" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050828025441.16276.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138916 Queen Jennifer wrote: I know that this topic has been touched on many, many times, but it just seems that JKR was preparing us all through HBP for what Snape did. Not that any of us expected for him to kill Dumbledore, mind you, but for the fact that Dumbledore could have been mistaken about him. He made several comments about, "an old man's mistakes.......", but you thought he was always just referring to Harry. He always said he had no question as to where Snape's loyalties lie, but never said why. I could be way off on this idea, but I was just wondering..... Merry: I feel "an old man's mistakes" was a red herring for both Harry and the reader. As with most red herrings in HP, this one is true about certain things we've seen in the books - it's just not true of the main thing. I don't believe JKR gave away Snape's whole raison d'etre in Chapter 2 at all. Nothing close. I think Dumbledore's mistakes were, in Book 5, the whole thing he did about keeping distant from Harry, not telling him everything that was going on, because he wanted to protect him. This strategy upset Harry more than it was worth. Or so I concluded. That's one old man's mistake. I think Dumbledore even called it that. In Book 6, it was opening the gates of Hogwarts to Tom Riddle. Doing that gave Harry reason to believe Dumbledore had bollixed it again where Snape is concerned - and led us on to believe it too. I just don't think this great wizard is that stupid. I believe Dumbledore has an ironclad reason to trust Snape, and I never believed him so much as when he told Harry that Harry should consider maybe Dumbledore understands the whole Snape thing better than HARRY, and maybe Harry should shut it when he bleats that Dumbledore doesn't "understand" the import of what Harry tells him. Merry Kinsella From saturniia at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 06:18:08 2005 From: saturniia at yahoo.com (saturniia) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:18:08 -0000 Subject: Plot Oversight in PS/SS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138917 Profuloth: > As I'm, listening to the HBP I'm thinking that the reason people have to apperate a distance > from their intended destination isn't explained that well. DD tries to pass it off as > politeness when they go see Slughorn, but that doesn't eplain Narcissa & Beletrix nor does > it explain the cave. No, politeless doesn't explain Bellatrix, Narcissa, or the cave, but the presence of magical wards, or the lack of knowledge of landmarks closer to the destination at which one wishes to arrive. What I mean is, on the one hand the cave and Snape's home could be protected by enchantments established to keep the casual wanderer away, and to repel those who might apparate to a point very close to it. In the case of the cave, the cliff would then act as deterrent, and Snape, in his home, would have time to decide whether to fight or flee. My comment about the landmarks stems from my own ignorance about apparation. We still don't know if a wizard or witch must be able to "see" the destination in his or her mind before completing the spell, or if "above ground, not in the middle of a wall, not in the middle of a tree, Privet Drive, Surrey" is specific enough instruction. If it's the former, it's possible that Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Dumbledore don't know any landmarks closer to the places they were going. Saturniia From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 28 08:14:24 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:14:24 -0000 Subject: Timing & the Dada position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138918 "Kristen" wrote: > Denya wrote: > All three chapters take place 2 weeks after the end of term. > (It's just possible that 1 & 2 take place up to a week *after* 3, > but certainly not before). > At that time, Dumbledore has already injured his hand, recovered > the ring horcrux, and made the decision to put Snape in the Dada > position (as he's inviting Slughorn back), thus guaranteeing that > Snape will leave Hogwarts at some point in the coming year. (snip) > > Jen wrote: > .... Another interesting thing is that since Snape was no > longer the potions teacher, Harry could continue with his Auror > dreams by taking NEWT Potions. Nice and neat huh? > [snip] > > Now Hexicon: > .... In addition to the points Jen and Denya make, I also think > DD knew that Snape would not be able to function as a teacher and > member of the OotP without DD there to continue to vouch for his > loyalty. ... > > For example, if DD had died of the ring curse or from the cave > potion, would the other OotP members agreed to let Snape continue > his double agent work? > > Assuming that recovering the ring horcrux left DD on borrowed > time, I think that DD and Snape had ...agreed that Snape would > get the DADA position--*before* the UV. DD knew his death would > mean an end for both Snape's direct role in the OotP and his > teaching career. For this reason, the DADA curse didn't risk any > additional harm?Snape would have to leave anyway. -aussie- Snape was saying in Spinners that he hadn't been given the DADA position. Snape didn't have any idea it was going to be offered to him - although DD was hoping it would go that way. DD hoped that not to oust Snape, but to move him out of Potions while Slughorn came in. For DD, more important than Snape getting DADA was to entice Slughorn into Hogwarts. If not for Slughorn's information, DD and Harry would have no clear idea what the task was in front of them to bring down LV. The "7 Horcruxes" memory let them know at what point should they hang up their "Indiana Jones" artifacts hunt and start getting the possie to hunt down the then vulernarable Voldemort. After a year in DADA, Snape could take a different teaching role if the curse proved unwaivering (from DD's POV- "Point Of View"). From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 09:34:08 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:34:08 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138919 > > Neri: > > > Do you remember Snape *ever* treating > > > *anybody* else gently and kindly, in the whole series? > > > > Betsy Hp: > > We've never seen him outside of Harry's presence before. Though > > he *does* show a great deal of care, IMO, when he heals Draco from > > the Sectumsempra. He struck me as downright maternal in that > > scene. > > Neri: > Snape had a *very* good personal motive to treat Draco carefully > there. Had Draco died, or even merely came to some harm from the > Sectumsempra, then Snape would be dead. In the bathroom scene Snape > came within an inch of his death, and the only thing between them > was Draco's well being. > > Except for the above well-explained case, Snape never shows even a > hint of decent kindness towards Dumbledore, McGonagall, Filch or > anybody *but* Narcissa. I don't see why Harry's presence should > prevent him from that. Valky surreptitiouly slips her Lollipop into her back pocket as she approaches. "AHA! I saw that!" Neri cries pointing at her. Valky looking bashful: I um... I only bought one yesterday, and I haven't even tasted it yet I promise. This is not about that anyway, I just have to make that clear, I just agree with Betsy, Snape was downright maternal. I wouldn't use it to take the fizz out of the Acrid Pops though.. oops I mean Acid pops.. I just can't stand Snape in love with anybody, it doesn't work for me. *shivers* I like Snape as a unicorn, the lady trapped him because he soft on women, especially beautiful fragile princesses like Narcissa. His gentleness with Draco's injury just smoked of protectiveness of the child. But back to the Sweets stalls I have a feeling that both will still stand on at least a leg after the class seven rolls through TBAY. Snapes sweetness on the princesses IMHO is about as close to love as he is capable of apart from his avid concern for the saftey of innocents. I just wonder what would happen here if I am right about that. ;P MHO is that if the Snape mystery ends with a simple he was a bit sweet on them both, it won't really resolve the core of either of these theories. I am quite sure that some of Snapes hatred toward Harry will be proven to have roots in his angst for Harry's Mother, AND the UV will be added up to a bit too much passion for the alluring lady in Mr Snape. But neither will be the complete explanation. Maybe I am just barking at the wrong Tbay market, and should open a stand of my own. ;D GO! LOLLIPOPS and GO! ACID POPS... Valky just essentially enjoying the tennis match. :D From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 09:55:13 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:55:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and knowing of Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: SNIP SNIP > If not for Slughorn's information, DD and Harry would have no clear > idea what the task was in front of them to bring down LV. The "7 > Horcruxes" memory let them know at what point should they hang up > their "Indiana Jones" artifacts hunt and start getting the possie to > hunt down the then vulernarable Voldemort. SNIP --- Inge: I may be very wrong here but had Dumbledore not injured his hand by the ring when he showed up at Privet Drive? Did he not show Harry the memory of the cup & locket long before Harry got Slughorn to reveal the Horcrux-conversation that he (Slughorn) once had with Riddle? If so - it seems to me that Dumbledore already knew for a long, long time that the Horcrux-theory was to go for. So even if Harry had NOT succeeded in making Slughorn tell the truth - Dumbledore already had a good clue what to do to bring down LV. Slughorn's information wasn't really THAT important...... or? From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 28 10:41:39 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:41:39 -0400 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I Message-ID: <007301c5abbd$129dd770$0ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138921 CathyD: > he [Snape] got at least 25% of his > 40 fifth-year students to achieve > an Outstanding OWL. Eggplant: >>In previous years Snape must have been teaching an entire other potions class that we have never seen for Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, and we don't know exactly how many students were in either class. Also, it's a rather long chain of reasoning to go from Harry and Ron were the only ones we see ask for a potions book to all the others must have gotten Outstanding. CathyD again: We do know exactly how many fifth-year potions students there are: 40. There are 40 students, according to JKR, in Harry's year. We know there are 10 in Gryffindor: Harry, Ron, Neville, Dean, Seamus, Hermione, Lavender, Parvati and the two girls whose names JKR says she is going to post on her website. We know there are 10 kids in Hufflepuff, since they take Herbology with the Gryffindors, and in the class with the baby Mandrakes Sprout had provided 20 sets of earmuffs. We know there are 10 Slytherins as Gryffindor took flying lessons with Slytherins and there are 20 brooms on the ground, not to mention Potions, where there are 20 cauldrons. That leaves 10 kids for Ravenclaw. So 40 students sat the Potions OWL at the end of fifth year. We know there are ten students in the Potions class who received Outstanding. That much is obvious to anyone who reads the book. 10 of 40 is 25%. How many more of the 30 remaining students who received Outstanding in Potions but didn't carry on to take the NEWT level class is not known. I can't imagine, for one moment, that only 4 Ravenclaws would have made Snape's cut line. They are *Ravenclaws* after all. However, Potions sounds to me like quite a challenge, so if one didn't need to take advanced level Potions, one wouldn't. One would use the time to do the work for the classes they did need for their future careers. None of the students knew, before the beginning feast, of the change of Potions Master. Anyone who had received Exceeds Expectations would not know, until the following morning when Heads of House were handing out timetables, that they could possibly take the class. There was no way to know, prior to Monday morning, whether or not the cut line for Slughorn was the same as for Snape - Outstanding, even if some students had known there was a change in teacher (which certainly does not seem evident by the amount of commotion in the Great Hall "the whole Hall had errupted in a buzz of conversation at the news"). McGonagall informed Harry that Slughorn only required Exceeds Expectations and offered him the opportunity to take the class since she knows his career goal is to be an Auror. Harry took the opportunity, as did Ron. It is quite obvious, to me at least, that they are the only two EE students in the Potions class as no one else asked for, or was handed, a book, and there was no way for them to acquire a book prior to their first class (4th period Monday morning, right before lunch. Whenever H&R ordered their new Potions book, it didn't arrive until Saturday of Harry's detention with Snape, the second Saturday of the term). Looking at it logically, for me, the more EE kids in the class, the more kids without books, the less likely the chance that Harry will received the HBP copy, and the more unlikely the plot then becomes if he does receive it. (i.e., if only two of the 12 students in NEWT potions had received Outstanding, the other 10, including Harry and Ron would have needed books, so logically, the odds go down of Harry receiving Snape's old copy.) So, the question is, why weren't there more EE kids in the class? I'm not surprised that there aren't any more Slytherins, Snape would believe, regardless of Slughorn, that only students who received Outstanding deserved to go on and wouldn't give those who received EE the opportunity. Perhaps Sprout and Flitwick, like McGonagall, know their students' career hopes well, and know that there are none of their EE students who need to go on to NEWT. Perhaps some were offered the opportunity but declined. We don't know. We don't know, IMO, because it's not important to the story as JKR is telling it. What I would really like to know is where Ron got the 9 Galleons to pay for his book and how many of the sixth-years failed the Potions OWL and are now suffering Snape's "displeasure." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Aug 28 11:11:12 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 07:11:12 -0400 Subject: What indicates to me that Slughorn is related to Harry Message-ID: <007701c5abc1$3392e570$0ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138922 CathyD: >>I really would like to see your evidence for this, hg, as it appears to go against all that is canon. Dobby's eyes are green too, does that make him a relative of Harry's as well? hg: >>Surely you didn't intend that to sound as sarcastic and dismissive as it does?! I never said that Slughorn's green eyes were the only indicator, CathyD: Ah, but that *is* all you posted as evidence in your initial post on the subject. "> I agree and I'll add (and get laughed off the board for it) that I think Slughorn is Lily's grandfather. *His eyes are green.*" Emphasis mine, but they were your words. As to JKR's quote: "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents" it makes complete sense. Lily's grandparents are Muggles, Lily's parents are Muggles, Lily is a witch, James is pureblood. Harry is Half-blood because Lily is a Muggle-born witch and James is Pure-blood. Just like Ron and Hermione's children (gasp) will be Half-bloods because Ron is a Pure-blood and Hermione is Muggle-born and her family are all Muggles "Nobody in my family's magic at all, it was ever such a suprise when I got my letter..." (PS pg 79 Can Ed). hg >>-- To close, (for the time being): Slughorn being Lily's grandfather is far more palatable than him being a dirty old man. CathyD: Agreed. More palatable but just as unlikely, IMO. But then, I never once thought of him as a dirty old man, that was somebody else's line. The rest of your theory is too far out in left field for me, I'm afraid as it goes against canon evidence to the contrary. The fact that LIly and Petunia may not look alike doesn't make them half-sisters. (I knew a set of twins in high school who looked so different from each other you would hardly know they were related, nevermind twins.) I have to agree with what PJ posted: >>By JKR consistently declaring (both in interviews as well as in the books themselves) since book 1 that Harry's _entire_ family - all but Petunia - are dead, she's left herself absolutely no wiggle room to throw in a surprise relative this late in the storyline. Her doing so now would be a betrayal and I believe she's much too smart to do something so unnecessary.<< (Thank you PJ and welcome to the list.) As was quoted before, by numerous people including myself, JKR said: "As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was *completely* alone. So I rather *ruthlessly disposed* of his *entire* family apart from Aunt Petunia." ENTIRE family. Not just portions thereof. COMPLETELY alone apart from Petunia. JKR also gave the indication that her hero, Harry, must go on alone, hence the need for the bearded wizard to die and why there won't be a great-grandfather in the closet. PJ: >>Might I suggest a possible third option? >>Slughorn is a renowned collector of the talented, famous and influential. He's attempted to get Harry into his inner circle since their ride on the Hogwarts Express but Harry has refused the bait over and over again. How better to win over an orphaned child than to heap lavish praise on one of his parents and then compare Harry to this incredibly wonderful, charming, brilliant person? CathyD: And a very good third option it is and fits right in with the warning Dumbledore gave Harry that Slughorn would "undoubtedly try and collect you, Harry. You would be the jewel of his collection: the Boy Who Lived..." Dratted Boy Who Lived who didn't want to play Slug's game. Slug was desperate to get Harry to participate in the Club and Harry refused, even planned Quidditch practices around the meetings so he'd have a reason not to go. If Slug is his great-grandfather, why didn't he just play the family card when trying to win Harry over? Good grief, anyone as desperate for family as Harry is would have jumped at the bait. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 28 12:04:38 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:04:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: two weeks of replies, ctl-F for YOUR name or topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4311A856.4030205@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138923 horridporrid03 wrote: > And Dumbledore did more than just hire Snape for a year-long > position. He hired Snape for the duration and made him a Head of > House. Dumbledore definitely trusted Snape; his actions show us as > much. > > Betsy Hp > Maybe Dumbledore also took Snape's mama into protective custody, and her muggle/squib husband, at the same time. He gave them new names and promised them safety from Voldemort and the Death Eaters..... Just a thought ;-) digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 26/08/2005 From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 12:25:35 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050828122535.41355.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138924 > "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, "so much the > better for me, so much the worse for him." But it doesn't include the power to rise above cheesy dialogue. I cringed when I read this sentence and thought, yeah right. Yet another Harry-Voldy connection! Magda (who likes good cheese but not the mass-produced processed stuff) ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From muellem at bc.edu Sun Aug 28 12:40:26 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:40:26 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: <20050828122535.41355.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, "so much the > > better for me, so much the worse for him." > > But it doesn't include the power to rise above cheesy dialogue. I > cringed when I read this sentence and thought, yeah right. > > yeah, this line was a tad corny & cheesey(cheetos, anyone?) I mean, the last time we saw Harry & Snape together, Snape was handing Harry his own behind. If Harry cannot defeat Snape at the most crutial moment, when Snape *killed* Dumbledore right in front of Harry's eyes, when can he? Maybe that is why Snape was always ganged up on by James, Sirius, et al - because a one on one fight would leave Snape victorious. Which leads me to believe, based on the Harry/Snape *fight*, that the final downfall of Voldemort will not be in this manner. That it won't be dueling, as their wands cannot duel against each other without peculiar results, and it certainly cannot be the way Harry tried to fight Snape. If Snape could beat Harry back down - without even hurting him - surely Voldemort can also, only Voldy won't care if he hurts Harry or not. Or kills Harry, for that matter. I don't think that the battle between Harry & Voldy will be a bloody one - perhaps the events leading up to that confrontation will be, but the actual *showdown* will be something completely different & new. colebiancardi (who loves cheetos but not in my books, as it leaves orange stains behind) From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 14:11:24 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:11:24 -0000 Subject: Forcing Voldemort's hand (was Re: Timing & the Dada position) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138926 Jen wrote: I completely agree with you. I think DD gave Snape the position because he knew he was going to die soon and he always needed Snape with him before. > lupinlore: But DID he know that Severus would function only one year in DADA? It's an interesting question. The idea of the position being cursed is simple conjecture from DD, based on the fact of what's happened after he refused the position to Voldemort. Now, he has pretty good evidence, but no proof that we know of. Even if he did have proof, consider the situation. He is placing Voldemort's "spy" in the critical DADA position. Perhaps, far from being a way to ensure that Snape leaves at the end of the year, he sees this as a way to force Voldemort to remove whatever curse he's put on the position. He is, in essence, forcing Voldy's hand. Now Voldemort must either remove the curse or lose his source of information inside Hogwarts at an absolutely critical juncture. Amiable Dorsai: Interesting notion. I assumed--and still believe--that Dumbledore's prime motivation was to put Horace Slughorn in a position where he could be confronted by Lily Evans' son. I thought that he was prepared to sacrifice Snape in order to get the true record of Slughorn's conversation with Riddle about Horcruxes. I hadn't considered the possibility that transfering Snape to DADA could have had a beneficial side effect. Bravo. Amiable Dorsai From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Aug 28 14:28:57 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:28:57 -0000 Subject: Where was Snape during the third task? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138927 > Lolita: > Well no, actually. Look at this: > > "Hagrid, Professor Moody, Professor McGonagall, and Professor > Flitwick came walking into the stadium and approached Bagman and the > champions. They were wearing large, red, luminous stars on their > hats, all except Hagrid, who had his on the back of his moleskin > vest." (GoF 31) > > These are the only teachers who come into the stadium. And as for > where SS's been, I have no idea. Potioncat: I too thought that our not seeing Snape during the 3rd task made it possible for him to be in the Graveyard. So much for that. From a plot set-up standpoint, maybe that is why we don't see him. Also, he isn't needed for plot either. Look at who is at the Maze. The Charms master, the Transfiguration teacher and the CoMac teacher. The 3 staff members whose expertise would be needed to deal with any of the hazards in the Maze. For all Snape's abilities, these are the ones who officially deal with those issues. As I find it hard to believe Snape would want to sit in the bleachers watching nothing at all happening, I'd guess he would prefer to be in his study reading one of his books. More than likely he was in the stands near Dumbledore, or patrolling the stands making sure none of the students threw butterbeer bottles into the Maze. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 28 14:48:20 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:48:20 -0000 Subject: the Grande Finale in Book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138928 Like any good stage production of a Who-Dung-It (sorry - Who Done It ... I still like the You-No-Poo joke), all the surviving caste need to make an apppearance in the finale, even if it is only to be killed off. So what is your most spectacular send off for LV and/or Harry? - Some more of the twins' fireworks to cause a distraction? - Hagrid sending Fluffy (with ear muffs); Buckbeak; thestrals and other "little beauties"? - Olivander's arsenal of wands backfiring on the DE when trying to use forbidden curses? - Charlie Weasly astride Norbert, the dragon? - Mrs Figg with uzis, grenade launchers, and ... ok, that is going too far, now. ... Dudley, maybe, but not Mrs Figg. NB. This is not for Fan Fics, but by brain-storming, we may hit upon some viable posibilities for the end of the end of the books. -aussie- From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 28 15:02:04 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Aug 2005 15:02:04 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1125241324.18.63418.m32@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138929 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 28, 2005 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From lady.indigo at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 15:11:52 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:11:52 -0400 Subject: "An old man's mistakes" In-Reply-To: <20050828025441.16276.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050828025441.16276.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63378ee70508280811202faace@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138930 Merry Kinsella wrote: > > I think Dumbledore's mistakes were, in Book 5, the whole thing he did > about keeping distant from Harry, not telling him everything that was going > on, because he wanted to protect him. This strategy upset Harry more than it > was worth. Or so I concluded. That's one old man's mistake. I think > Dumbledore even called it that. Ironic that, if Snape is innocent, Dumbledore seems to be doing that exact same thing again. Maybe his reason for secrecy is more ironclad this time? I definitely agree there's got to be more behind his trust than Harry realizes. (I think it was Lily he loved and regretted harming, personally, which would explain why the day he insulted her and earned her anger was his 'worst memory' after everything he's been through, including nearly dying via werewolf!Lupin.) - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anezat at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 13:28:30 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:28:30 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: <20050828122535.41355.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138931 Magda Grantwich wrote: > > "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, "so much the > > better for me, so much the worse for him." > > But it doesn't include the power to rise above cheesy dialogue. I > cringed when I read this sentence and thought, yeah right. Angela replies: And how about the line in COS at the end when Lucius Malfoy says to Harry "You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days, Harry Potter," he said softly. "They were meddlesome fools, too." I was forcefully reminded of Scooby Doo. "And if it weren't for these meddlesome kids . . ." Angela. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 15:37:14 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:37:14 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, and DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan1" > Harry. Harry took this as a great compliment, mostly because > Hermione viewed something Harry had said as worth remembering. (HBP > US 180). Also on this page, Harry is able to effectively block > Snape's attempt to jinx him. It seems to me JKR was showing them as > very close in ability, and therefore there would be little of the > cat and mouse of the potions classes. Harry was too good. > Harry's abilities are strangely inconsistent, but he does seem to be unusually powerful--he learned the Patronus when he was very young, then used it to drive away a hundred or so dementors, he side-apparated Dumbledore (which must be hard, else why go through the broom-ride to Grimmauld Place in book 5?). On the other hand hand, he had a hard time learning the Summoning Spell. I don't know about his being Snape's equal in skill--Snape has decades of practice on Harry, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he equals or betters Snape in potential. And I think you're right--that potential means that Snape would be taking a chance on being further embarrassed by Harry if he pushed him too hard in class. It would be interesting to see them duel again if Harry ever takes Snape's advice and learns to Occlude his mind properly. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 15:40:44 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:40:44 -0000 Subject: The Eggplant and Snape and I In-Reply-To: <007301c5abbd$129dd770$0ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138933 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > There are 40 students, according > to JKR, in Harry's year. Yes but she also said there were about 1000 students at Hogwarts and 7 times 40 is not equal to 1000. JKR has admitted she's not very good at math so I think a statistical analysis is unlikely to lead to new insights into the books. > None of the students knew, before > the beginning feast, of the change > of Potions Master. True again, but as soon as they heard they may have guessed that the new Potions Master probably didn't have the same unusually stringent entry requirements Snape did and borrowed books from friends or received them from a Federal Express Overnight Owl. Eggplant From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Aug 28 15:49:58 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:49:58 -0000 Subject: The graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138934 Ginger: So if there is a graveyard there, who's buried in > it? Surely the founders would count as heads. If it isn't done for > heads, then it must not be for teachers too. Students would be > buried with family, which leaves....House Elves? Potioncat: I've read it, but I can't find it. There is a summary over at Quick Quotes, but I can't find the actual quote. But, just as HBP was coming/had come out someone asked JKR about the graveyard. She said it was a fandom myth. My take is that Cuaron may have discussed putting in a graveyard at Hogwarts and misunderstood her reasons for not wanting one. It's his quote that got all the speculation started. I'm assuming that a graveyard in the PoA movie would hve been too confusing with the canon GoF graveyard. Besides, they had already added too much and cut too much...just my opinion of course. From lady.indigo at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 15:08:39 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:08:39 -0400 Subject: What indicates to me that Slughorn is related to Harry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63378ee705082808087d5ab1b@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138935 > > Hermionegallo: > >-- To close, (for the time being): Slughorn being Lily's grandfather > >is far more palatable than him being a dirty old man. > PJ: > Might I suggest a possible third option? > > Slughorn is a renowned collector of the talented, famous and influential. > He's attempted to get Harry into his inner circle since their ride on the > Hogwarts Express but Harry has refused the bait over and over again. How > better to win over an orphaned child than to heap lavish praise on one of > his parents and then compare Harry to this incredibly wonderful, charming, > > brilliant person? > > I believe this would be in character for a Slytherin since the surest way > to > their heart is first and foremost by way of their ego :) > Agreed on the grandfather thing - not possible, never even occured to me, completely destroys the Voldemort-Snape-and-Harry-are-all-halfblood parallel - but as probably the only person who'll call Slughorn her favorite character at the moment I just want to point out that he was still singing Lily's praises while he was drunk and emotionally feeling the weight of everything that happened with Voldemort. Unless the entire scene was a ruse (as some people believe it to be, but I think they're wrong), there was definitely some genuine admiration there for Lily, and it was for qualities that a sober Slughorn might not have necessarily found 'bankable', things like wit and (most importantly) bravery. He did love Lily, in his way. I don't think that makes him a parental figure by blood and I don't think it means he checks out his own students. I do think it means he felt a kind of attachment nonetheless, maybe especially because that era of his many students grew up in a far more difficult time than the rest of them, and I have a feeling she's one of only a few that didn't go to the Death Eater side. So what a good woman she was would have built up along with the weight of his guilt and the fact that, perhaps, he admires things like bravery and genuine likeability because he doesn't really have those things himself. Hence she'd have weighed more on him than his other students, especially with her child sitting right in front of him all the time. - Lady Indigo (who is oddly biased towards the poor guy and may well be dead wrong) From pipes814 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 12:23:53 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:23:53 -0000 Subject: The graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138936 Jo Marelvy Samudio wrote: >...he -Cuar?n- asked for JKR's opinion and she said that it could not be done at the north (? - I'm not sure about that)because there IS a graveyard in that part of the grounds and that it was highly significant!!! Jamie: Maybe JKR meant that there was going to be a graveyard there, but didn't want to put it that way because we'd all see what was coming. Who else would they possibly bury at Hogwarts besides DD? Maybe Hagrid, with some action on DD's part, but that's it. Jamie From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 16:09:40 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:09:40 -0000 Subject: the Grande Finale in Book 7. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138937 "Hagrid" wrote: > So what is your most spectacular > send off for LV and/or Harry? And so Harry and Voldemort were in a Mexican standoff with their wands pointed at each other. Then Harry walked forward until he was just inches from Voldemort's face and with an air of quiet confidence said: "I know what you're thinking - did he drink Felix Felicis 25 hours ago or only 24? Well, to tell you the truth, in all the excitement I've kind of lost track myself, but as it's the Magnum curse I'm aiming to perform, the most powerful in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question - do I feel lucky ? Well, do you punk?" Eggplant > Like any good stage production of a Who-Dung-It (sorry - Who Done > It ... I still like the You-No-Poo joke), all the surviving caste > need to make an apppearance in the finale, even if it is only to be > killed off. > > So what is your most spectacular send off for LV and/or Harry? > > - Some more of the twins' fireworks to cause a distraction? > > - Hagrid sending Fluffy (with ear muffs); Buckbeak; thestrals and > other "little beauties"? > > - Olivander's arsenal of wands backfiring on the DE when trying to > use forbidden curses? > > - Charlie Weasly astride Norbert, the dragon? > > - Mrs Figg with uzis, grenade launchers, and ... ok, that is going > too far, now. ... Dudley, maybe, but not Mrs Figg. > > NB. This is not for Fan Fics, but by brain-storming, we may hit upon > some viable posibilities for the end of the end of the books. > -aussie- From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 16:11:25 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:11:25 -0000 Subject: "An old man's mistakes" In-Reply-To: <63378ee70508280811202faace@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138938 > Merry Kinsella wrote: > > > > I think Dumbledore's mistakes were, in Book 5, the whole thing he did > > about keeping distant from Harry, not telling him everything that was going > > on, because he wanted to protect him. Lady Indigo: > Ironic that, if Snape is innocent, Dumbledore seems to be doing that exact > same thing again. Maybe his reason for secrecy is more ironclad this time? Alla: That is one of the reasons I think that Snape is not innocent. I want to believe that Dumbledore indeed learned his lessons in OOP and would not have kept the information from Harry in HBP, knowing how much is on the line, knowing how much would depend on Harry trusting Snape if necessary. I mean I am not the big fan of Dumbledore's last speech in OOP and in generally Dumbledore in OOP, but he seemed to be genuinely remorseful for what his mistakes caused Harry and I doubt that he would repeat them all over again in HBP. I don't know. Posters keep saying that Dumbledore would be shown as a fool, if his trust in Snape would not be justified after all. I will not go into whole " he had been wrong many many times in his judgment of people" again, but personally I would much rather forgive Dumbledore giving his trust to person who did not deserve it, because it is a mistake which IMO shows kindness and generousity of Dumbledore's spirit than Dumbledore being a fool a gain and going for total secrecy. Just my opinion of course, Alla From derek at rhinobunny.com Sun Aug 28 16:26:02 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:26:02 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: <20050828122535.41355.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138939 Magda Grantwich: > > "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, > > "so much the better for me, so much the worse for him." > > But it doesn't include the power to rise above cheesy > dialogue. I cringed when I read this sentence and thought, > yeah right. Derek: I dunno... it actually sounds exactly like sixteen-year-old bravado to me. :-) From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 16:34:33 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and knowing of Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050828163433.17518.qmail@web53112.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138940 Hagrid: If not for Slughorn's information, DD and Harry would have no clear idea what the task was in front of them to bring down LV. Inge: If so - it seems to me that Dumbledore already knew for a long, long time that the Horcrux-theory was to go for. So even if Harry had NOT succeeded in making Slughorn tell the truth - Dumbledore already had a good clue what to do to bring down LV. Slughorn's information wasn't really THAT important...... or? Juli now: Just to add a bit into Inge's message. Dumbledore KNEW about Voldemort's plan to become inmortal using a Horcrux. By the time he started teaching Harry about Tom's history, two horcruxes had already been destryoed (diary and ring). The reason Dumbledore needed Slughorn's memory is to find out how many horcruxes Voldemort was planning on creating. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 17:30:08 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:30:08 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138941 Combining responses again. > Alla: > > Indeed, I was so glad that in HBP JKR finally called the other > teacher " master" and yes, I never heard him insisting on being > called so in class. > > "The tiny little Charms master was bobbing his way towards them..."- > HBP, p.515. > > Neri: Thanks for the canon, Alla. I've missed that one. Valky wrote: > I like Snape as a unicorn, the lady trapped him because he soft on > women, especially beautiful fragile princesses like Narcissa. His > gentleness with Draco's injury just smoked of protectiveness of the > child. Neri: Why, Valky, we have *just* the product for you: ACID POPS Light. If you'll allow me to quote from my own advertisement leaflet http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138790 "This brand is for those members who prefer their Snape noble at heart and the savior of damsels in distress." Sounds to me just like what you were looking for. And I'll be completely fair with you and even read the small print on the bottom: "Regardless of brand, all consumers of ACID POPS support the assertion that Severus' emotions for Narcissa were a main reason for his choice to undertake the Unbreakable Vow, and that Narcissa was at least partially aware of these emotions and stirring them." That's the essence of ACID POPS." I believe you've already expressed such sentiments in your post, so you're not committing yourself to anything here. I don't even mind if you try mixing it with LOLLIPOPS. Really I don't. It might make for a nice combination, I wouldn't know. Haven't tried it myself because, frankly, I just can't stand *that* amount of sugar. Oh, and about Maternal!Snape, he doesn't interfere with ACID POPS Light at all. You can keep him, no problems. Only I personally think it's a pity that his protectiveness doesn't extend to 15 yrs old princesses just because their front teeth are too large. > colebiancardi wrote: > > I have to say... what people will do for a ship - LOL. Somehow, I can > not see Snape wasting away for either a dead person(Lily) or for a > very married woman(Cissa) for 15 years. I can't see Snape turning his > back on Voldemort because he wanted to *win* Cissa's love, her being a > pureblood and a Voldemort supporter - I mean, talk about a way to woo > a woman - join the other side that she is on!! I can't see Snape > turning his back on LV for a married woman with a newborn baby who is > married to his childhood nemesis, either. > Neri: There were times, not long ago, when I thought so myself. But HBP was The Revenge Of The SHIPs, and it was one BIG revenge. Not only we had four big ships, including one with an actual date for a wedding, and countless minor ones (darn it, even Filch and Madam Pince got together in the end), but it turned out that the whole HP saga wouldn't even exist but for Meropa's unrequited love for Tom Riddle Sr. That what had started it all. We can no more afford the luxury of laughing at SHIP scenarios. Snape is a person who has apparently harbored and cultivated a hate towards James for many years after James' demise, and towards Sirius for many years after Sirius was buried alive in Azkaban. It's the kind of things Snape does, and at times it makes him act irrationally and close his eyes to important facts, like the existence of a rat animagus in the Shrieking Shack. Wouldn't he also harbor and cultivate an old unrequited love? Wouldn't it also make him act irrationally at critical moments? > colebiancardi also wrote: > I believe he took the UV because he knew what was going to happen down > the line, based on the recent events that happened to Dumbledore. I > am sure that DD & Snape had some discussions around this prior to the > UV and based on the speculation of the conversation in the forest, > Snape wasn't all on board with the final doings. Taking the UV wasn't > going to cost him anything to do so, and it would gain the trust of > the Malfoy's if he took it. It also splits the DE's camp - the > Malfoy's owe Snape big time now. > Neri: Regardless of Snape true loyalties, whether they are for Dumbledore, for Voldy or for himself, I see very little logic in him taking the UV. Whatever were his plans, he would have had much more room to maneuver without this mortal obligation. It looks like an extremely stupid risk to take. If Draco will do something foolish and come to some harm (as he very nearly did when fighting Harry in the bathroom) then Snape is dead on the spot. Taking the UV in order to split the DE's camp seems redundant: the Malfoys were already shunned by Voldemort and under a death threat. Gaining the trust of the Malfoys would have looked like a more plausible reason had Snape bothered to hint even once in Spinner's End that he's doing this for Lucius too, but he hadn't. Any way I look at it, I don't see a rational reason for Snape to take the UV. This leaves the irrational reasons. And preferably a big, BANGy reason that can be revealed in a single sentence, and then all the small (and not so small) clues between the lines would fit in by themselves. Neri From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 17:57:08 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:57:08 -0000 Subject: What indicates to me that Slughorn is related to Harry In-Reply-To: <007701c5abc1$3392e570$0ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138942 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > CathyD: Dobby's eyes are green too, does > that make him a relative of Harry's as well? > > hg: I never said that Slughorn's green eyes were the only > indicator... > > CathyD: > Ah, but that *is* all you posted as evidence in your initial post on the subject hg: Yes, and I admitted my mistake was in posting a tidbit, not a fleshed- out theory. Must have sounded half-baked. Still, sorry to be so humorless, but it hurt my feelings. Is there no history on the board of "testing the waters?" I remember having a lot more fun here a couple of years ago than I do now. > hg > >>-- To close, (for the time being): Slughorn being Lily's grandfather is far more palatable than him being a dirty old man. > > CathyD: > Agreed. More palatable but just as unlikely, IMO. But then, I never once thought of him as a dirty old man, that was somebody else's line. hg: No, never, never, never did I mean to imply that you or anyone else said he was a dirty old man! In fact, I quoted Del, the person who touched what no-one wanted to, the blatant CREEPY factor about Slughorn. She said she didn't think it was the case, and she wondered what it should make us think about. If you inferred that I thought you were insinuating that, my apologies, of course. CathyD: > The rest of your theory is too far out in left field for me, I'm afraid as it goes against canon evidence to the contrary. The fact that LIly and Petunia may not look alike doesn't make them half- sisters. (I knew a set of twins in high school who looked so different from each other you would hardly know they were related, nevermind twins.) hg: That seems to be the consensus. Ah, well, can't blame a girl for trying. Thanks for taking the time to post a response to my train of thought: Jen Reese, CathyD, Lady Indigo, PJ. hg. From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 17:57:44 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:57:44 -0000 Subject: The graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Ginger: > So if there is a graveyard there, who's buried in > > it? Surely the founders would count as heads. If it isn't done > for > > heads, then it must not be for teachers too. Students would be > > buried with family, which leaves....House Elves? > > > Potioncat: > I've read it, but I can't find it. There is a summary over at Quick > Quotes, but I can't find the actual quote. But, just as HBP was > coming/had come out someone asked JKR about the graveyard. She said > it was a fandom myth. > > My take is that Cuaron may have discussed putting in a graveyard at > Hogwarts and misunderstood her reasons for not wanting one. It's his > quote that got all the speculation started. I'm assuming that a > graveyard in the PoA movie would hve been too confusing with the > canon GoF graveyard. > > Besides, they had already added too much and cut too much...just my > opinion of course. Barmaid now: The graveyard stuff comes from the PoA DVD disk 2 documentary Creating the Vision. This is an interview with BOTH Alfonso Cuar?n and JKR. They are on screen together. Because this is an interview with JKR it seems to be "canon" as defined by this board. In this part of the interview they are discussing where the trio will be when they view the "execution" of Buckbeak. Alfonso is talking; Jo is looking at him while he speaks and sometimes nodding. He says he wanted it to be a graveyard ? but she had said no no, there can't be a graveyard there ? he explained that he had asked her why and that she had said there was a graveyard somewhere else around the castle and it would come into play later. She is nodding as he ends this explanation. I was very excited when I saw this and I really thought there would be a graveyard in HBP and that it would be a key to many interesting things. Alas, there was not. There where however two funerals and "burials." Two possibilities come to mind. One is that there really is not a graveyard ? that Alfonso's words in the interview are not precisely Jo's and she is agreeing with the spirit of what he says not his exact words. In this view what she is really saying is that there can not be a graveyard overlooking Hagrid's hut because we are going to have a tomb and a funeral on the lake front ? which would not really make sense if there were a graveyard elsewhere ? if people had come to believe that there was a graveyard above Hagrid's hut because of their being one there in the movie. The other idea that comes to mind is that there is a graveyard which will come into play in book 7. HBP ends with DD's funeral on the lake front ? there really is nothing that says that this is the permanent location for DD's tomb. From eschuetter at fuse.net Sun Aug 28 18:23:00 2005 From: eschuetter at fuse.net (eschuetter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:23:00 -0000 Subject: Significance of potion in cave - Weasley's day dream potion? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138944 Has anyone considered the significance of the defenses in the cave? In particular the potion seems to cause DD to dream - it reminded me of the Weasley twins' Day Dream Potion (except this would be a nightmare version).... perhaps cause the person to dream his/her worst nightmare in addition to the physical damage it works Any thoughts on the significance? If any? Erica p.s. I'll go back to lurking now ;-) From lady.indigo at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 17:45:55 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:45:55 -0400 Subject: "An old man's mistakes" In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee70508280811202faace@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee70508281045ce11cef@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138945 Alla wrote: > I don't know. Posters keep saying that Dumbledore would be shown as > a fool, if his trust in Snape would not be justified after all. I > will not go into whole " he had been wrong many many times in his > judgment of people" again, but personally I would much rather > forgive Dumbledore giving his trust to person who did not deserve > it, because it is a mistake which IMO shows kindness and generousity > of Dumbledore's spirit than Dumbledore being a fool a gain and going > for total secrecy. And normally I would agree. I certainly don't think trust and forgiveness are weaknesses, I'm told I'm more than a little naive myself in fact. But it's not the offering Snape forgiveness and protection that's a problem here so much as Snape as a SPY. If Dumbledore won't even grant him the DADA position for fear of pushing him back on the wrong path, putting Snape back into the fray over and over means Dumbledore's reasons for trust would have to intelligent and ironclad, certainly not the one Harry thinks. Which is why I do think Snape is innocent (along with the other reasons I listed), but even if he isn't there has to be more to his story than what we know. And it's that revelation which will be important, and which will turn the tide in the end. Maybe Snape's true redemptive moment has yet to come? - Lady Indigo From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sun Aug 28 18:57:43 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:57:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] If they wrote Book 7 was Re: the Grande Finale Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138946 After Eggplant's marvelous Dirty Harry post, I just had to jump in. If Book 7 were written by: (with apologies therin) J.R.R Tolkien Setting: Harry, Ron, and Hermione are on their way to Voldemort's dark castle after destroying the Horcruxes (which involved giant battles, Dementor attacks, lava flows, and other various nasty things). Unfortunately, the only guide to the castle is Snape, who due to some clause in the Unbreakable Vow/failed Horcrux creation/other plot device has gone insane and is having psychotic delusions (which is at least keeping Harry from throwing him off the nearest deadly obstacle). Hermione: "You said..um..this way, Professor?" Harry (snarling) "Don't call him that! He's a murderer, and the first chance I get..." Snape (hissing) "You'd use my curses, too! My curses, the Half Blood Prince's! No, you won't get them! (clutches invisible book) My preciousss curssess...." <30 pages of action packed book later, Snape knocks Harry down trying to get his non-existent book back, knocking Harry into Voldemort, who falls into a lava flow. Yay.> ************* Harlequin/Mills and Boon (aka Tuw Wuv, Part 1) Harry Potter stood in the dimly lit hallway, the Sword of Gryffindor at his side, his ripped and bloody robes showing off his manly chest. "I must go and face him alone. You know that, Ginny, my love....(lots of sloppy kissing). Ginny clutched at Harry's chest, her tears splashing the front of his robes. "No, my love. Whatever happens, I want to be with you. We will live or die together! (more tears, more sloppy kissing). Voldemort: "Die Potter! I can't stand the sight of this! (Neither can we.) (Harry and Ginny embrace and sing "The Power of Love") Voldemort covers his ears, shrieking, and dies a horrible death. The book ends with a glorious double wedding with Ron and Hermione. Rice is thrown, doves fly, and readers the world over excuse themselves to throw up. (Note: I don't actually mind OBHWF, but go easy on it, please.) ************ George Lucas (aka Tuw Wuv, Part 2 with thanks and apologies to LOLLIPOPS) Scene: The Final Battle. Harry is lying flat on his back with his wand some distance away. Voldemort is standing over him, making it as slow and painful as possible. Snape is standing against a nearby wall, watching. Voldemort: Crucio! Harry (barely conscious):...help...Sirius! Snape grins broadly. Voldemort: Crucio! Harry:...Professor Dumbledore.... Snape's grin fades. His hands twitch. Voldemort: Crucio! Harry: ....Mum... Snape: DIE YOU @#@#$$$#$$#$#@#! Snape stuns Voldemort, and Harry rolls over, grabs his wand and performs the AK. He then stares open mouthed at Snape. Snape: Yes, yes, Potter. Let's not do lunch, ever. ************* Amber who thinks the worst possibility for Book 7 is Harry doing Frodo and wasting away from depression in the Weasley kitchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 19:57:19 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:57:19 -0000 Subject: If they wrote Book 7 was Re: the Grande Finale. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138947 sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > If Book 7 were written by: (with apologies therin) > J.R.R Tolkien > [...] > Hermione: "You said..um..this way, > Professor?" > Harry (snarling) "Don't call him that! > He's a murderer, and the first > chance I get..." Actually if J.R.R Tolkien had written Harry Potter I think Harry would have said something more like this: Don't call him "Professor" Hermione, he is Snape son of Tobias, grandson of Clogknee chief of the Bustalator people who come from across the Onrobonob river beyond the Dyphlesator mountains on the planes of Diplet in the land of Fustalator near the forest of Sphincter which in the elfin tongue is called Whogivesadamn, and, . and, that is to say ah ., err, . Oh dear I seem to have lost my thread, what were we talking about? Oh well no matter. And now for no particular reason I'm going to sing a long and pointless song in a language I know you don't understand because I just made it up. Hey Hermione where are you going, you'll miss my song! Eggplant From kelley_thompson at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 28 20:16:13 2005 From: kelley_thompson at sbcglobal.net (Kelley) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:16:13 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat In-Reply-To: <1125241324.18.63418.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138948 Hi, everyone-- I'm sorry about this, it's my fault this hasn't been updated. As some of you may remember, a few months back Yahoo closed all 'user created' chat rooms, one of which was HP:1, so we had to figure out what to do. Up to then, we'd never used the group chat room (accessed just by going to the group online -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups and clicking "Chat" in the lefthand menu) because too many people were experiencing problems with it -- kept getting bounced out of the room, chat window was way too small, could only see half the things being said, etc. It seems that Yahoo has fixed some of those problems; well, those things may still occur, but not to the extent they had before. So, when they closed our created room, we gave the group room another chance, thinking that if it were unusable, we'd just have to find some other venue. So far it's been working okay, though. You can enter the way I describe above or you can also go to http://www.yahoo.com and find "Chat" listed there. You'll have to click on "All Y! Services..." and then find Chat in section C of the alphabetized listings. Use that to enter any Yahoo chat room and then type "/join *g.HPforGrownups" (without the quotes) to enter the room. The reason you may want to try the second option is either if you have trouble getting in the other way, but also that some folks just prefer it because it looks a bit different -- the chat window is wider rather than longer, the group info stuff (lefthand menu, 'Group Tips', etc.) isn't there, though you do have Yahoo ads at the bottom of the page, and so on. I'll make sure the reminder is updated so it reflects this info for next week. Please, though, if anyone has any questions or problems getting in, rather than post here on the main list, do so on OTC instead: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-OTChatter or contact the elves: HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or just email me directly: kelley_thompson@ sbcglobal.net (this is my new email address, so if anyone's tried to reach me in the last few weeks, please resend to this address. I'm sorry about that!) Okay, think that's it. Please, if anyone has any problems, let us know! --Kelley Elf From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Aug 28 20:00:33 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:00:33 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee70508281045ce11cef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Which is why I do think Snape is innocent (along with the other > reasons I listed), but even if he isn't there has to be more to his > story than what we know. And it's that revelation which will be > important, and which will turn the tide in the end. Maybe Snape's > true redemptive moment has yet to come? > And therein, I'm afraid, lies precisely the problem many people, including myself, see with the Good!Snape scenario. It in effect means the books cease being Harry's story and start being Snape's story. I don't think that's what JKR intends (and I think that accounts for most of her concern about Snape being so popular). JKR has implied pretty strongly that she's following the standard patterns of coming of age/hero's journey literature. Whether that is a good idea or not is another question, but I think we can take her at her word. That means the story is about a Hero's growing up, and in the end facing his challenge alone with HIS OWN DECISIONS being the crucial component of the outcome. Yes, it's true that the actual resolution of the story might lie in the hands of a surprise character (Gollum, Vader), but it must be the independent choices of the hero that bring everything to the climax. It was Frodo's choices, including his choice to spare Gollum, that brought everything to a head at the Crack of Doom. It was Luke's choice to appeal and reach out to his father that redeemed Vader. The problem with Good!Snape, particularly the Dumbledore'sMan!Snape variety of that theory, is that it effect reduces Harry to a puppet. The really important choices, in these scenarios, are those that have been made by Dumbledore and Snape. Dumbledore, through his awesome and far-seeing plan, and Snape, through his wrenching sacrifices, have engineered Voldemort's doom by cementing a traitor at Voldemort's right hand, and Harry is simply the first domino that will set the process in motion at the final confrontation. Consider, in order for Dumbledore'sMan!Snape to be true, Harry will have never REALLY been alone. He would have always been supported, even at the final moment, by Superspy!Snape. In order for this to be true, Harry's choices have never really been the crucial steps leading to the defeat of Voldemort, they are mearly variables in Dumbledore's grand plan. Furthermore, it means that the entire scene atop the tower was a play for Harry's benefit, reducing him to a credulous dupe led astray by his own prejudices. I have to confess that I agree with Eggplant in finding this outcome contrived, poorly written, and just plain silly. It would also be very, very boring -- Harry was wrong about Snape yet again, how terribly original of JKR. Now, just because it's Harry's story doesn't mean other characters can't change and make effective choices. In fact, one of my arguments with JKR to this point is that she has been so VERY wedded to the standard formula that she has missed a lot of interesting possibilities in this regard. But those choices can't be allowed to undercut the Hero's status, and Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would do exactly that. If JKR goes in that direction of undercutting the Hero's Journey formula, I would have been much more impressed had she kept Sirius alive to give Harry love and support -- that at least would have been a refreshing and pleasant change of pace. Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would just be forced and preachy. Lupinlore From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 21:12:56 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:12:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's. (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138950 "lupinlore" wrote: > I have to confess that I agree with > Eggplant in finding this outcome > contrived, poorly written, and just > plain silly. Thank you lupinlore, I was beginning to think that I was the only on planet Earth who thought that because Snape butchered Dumbledore there is at least the slight theoretical possibility that perhaps Snape might not be an absolutely perfect human being. Eggplant From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 21:24:16 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:24:16 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: <20050828122535.41355.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, "so much the > > better for me, so much the worse for him." > > But it doesn't include the power to rise above cheesy dialogue. I > cringed when I read this sentence and thought, yeah right. > > Yet another Harry-Voldy connection! > > Magda (who likes good cheese but not the mass-produced processed stuff) Sorry, the cheesiest line in the book is when Harry actually uses the word Hark in a sentence and he isn't singing a christmas song. I could not get over that one. phoenixgod2000 From djklaugh at comcast.net Sun Aug 28 21:42:14 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:42:14 -0000 Subject: the Grande Finale in Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138952 > Like any good stage production of a Who-Dung-It (sorry - Who Done > It ... I still like the You-No-Poo joke), all the surviving caste > need to make an apppearance in the finale, even if it is only to be > killed off. > So what is your most spectacular send off for LV and/or Harry? (Snip) > NB. This is not for Fan Fics, but by brain-storming, we may hit upon > some viable posibilities for the end of the end of the books. > -aussie- Oooohh good question Aussie! What ever send off there is, IMO, will involve some really complex potion. There has been such a strong emphasis on potions through all the books...plus the last minute inclusion of Harry (and Ron) in NEWTs potions... that I am convinced that part of the final vanquishing of LV will require the use of some strong and complex potion- perhaps found by Hermione in *Moste Potente Potions*. Neville's mimbulus mimbletonia will be a key ingredient. And it will require all of Harry's friends -wizards, witches, and magical creatures - to participate in the final show down. Fred and George create a very clever and effective distraction that is deployed at just the right moment... something even grander than their last fireworks "blow out". Grawp will help too, maybe in disquise as a small mountain, and he will be instrumental in turning LV's giant associates against him. Snape gets hit by a Tickle Charm and the sight of him ROFLHAO will cause all of the DEs to falter at a critical moment. Professors Sprout, McGonagall, and Flitwick work together and come up with a humongous Venemous Tentacula transfigured and charmed into resembling a kitten who purrs so loudly it causes LV to miss the sounds of approaching DAs and OOPs... then bites him most severely. Dobby, Winky, and Kreacher also will be on hand and will use their own unique magic to assist the others. Deb (djklaugh) From QueenJennifer1 at msn.com Sun Aug 28 21:48:09 2005 From: QueenJennifer1 at msn.com (Jennifer Thomassian) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:48:09 -0600 Subject: an old man's mistakes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138953 It's just too bad that you never get to hear what it is exactly that makes Dumbledore trust Snape so much! I know everyone (and their dog) has been wondering what the reason is. It's true that there must be some really good reason, because he is so adamant in his trust of Snape. Not even McGonagall has been told exactly why though! The reason will surely come out in book 7; if we can only just stand to wait that long........ I know that JKR had said that book 6 was the time for some answers and not just more questions, but it seems that I have almost as many questions as before! I will be going to Scotland next summer. Just might have to track her down....... Just kidding! Queen Jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 20:46:20 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:46:20 -0000 Subject: The function of Chapter Two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138954 Betsy Hp wrote: "The denouement on the Astronomy Tower would have been that much more confusing if we hadn't had the set-up of this chapter." Del replies: I really don't know about that. Personally, I find the set-up in Spinners' End way too vague and even downright confusing sometimes to be of any use when trying to figure out what happened on the Astronomy Tower. In particular, the fact that the Task (killing DD) is NEVER spelled out to Snape, added to the questions Snape keeps asking Draco throughout the school year, lead me to doubt whether Snape EVER knew what Draco's Task was precisely, up until he arrived on the top of the Astronomy Tower, saw Draco pointing his wand at DD, and heard the other DEs saying that there was a problem with Draco not being able to do his part. If the Task had been clearly spelled out (we the readers didn't need to know, JKR could just write that "Snape's eyes flashed as Narcissa revealed to him what task the DL had appointed to Draco", or something like that), or if it had become clear during the year that Snape had finally figured out what the Task was, then I would agree that it was all making the denouement clearer. As it stands, though, I disagree. I actually think that a Snape who had taken no Vow, who was under no obligation to anyone, and who took advantage of a sick and weak DD to finally reveal his true side, would have been much clearer. JMO, obviously. Del From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Aug 28 21:55:00 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:55:00 -0000 Subject: If they wrote Book 7 was Re: the Grande Finale. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138955 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: Eggplant: > Actually if J.R.R Tolkien had written Harry Potter I think Harry would > have said something more like this: > > Don't call him "Professor" Hermione, he is Snape son of Tobias, > grandson of Clogknee chief of the Bustalator people who come from > across the Onrobonob river beyond the Dyphlesator mountains on the > planes of Diplet in the land of Fustalator near the forest of > Sphincter which in the elfin tongue is called Whogivesadamn, and, . > and, that is to say ah ., err, . Oh dear I seem to have lost my > thread, what were we talking about? Oh well no matter. And now for no > particular reason I'm going to sing a long and pointless song in a > language I know you don't understand because I just made it up. Hey > Hermione where are you going, you'll miss my song! Geoff: I'm having a little trouble writing this because I am still ROFLOL over the Mills & Boon version........ Re the Tolkien Mark II version above, I'm muscling in because I'm rather concerned at Harry's reference to the forest of Sphincter which I think to be more accurate is on the backside of Fustalator isn't it? I think that the matter of defeating Voldemortwill be resolved far more easily. Knowing that he is a bit of a clumsy clot with his reconstituted body (add boiling water to bring up to the mark and stir briskly until reincarnated) I suspect that he will try to catch Harry to cast an Unforgiveable Curse, trip over his own shoelaces and impale himself on his wand. Hmm. It's got to be the silly end of Sunday evening..... From lady.indigo at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 21:58:18 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:58:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee70508281045ce11cef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee705082814585c029da6@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138956 On 8/28/05, lupinlore wrote: > > > JKR has implied pretty strongly that she's following the standard > patterns of coming of age/hero's journey literature. Whether that is > a good idea or not is another question, but I think we can take her > at her word. That means the story is about a Hero's growing up, and > in the end facing his challenge alone with HIS OWN DECISIONS being > the crucial component of the outcome. Interesting that you should say that because (I've been waiting for a good time to bring this up) I think a lot of Snape's continuing problems have to do with Harry being an utter idiot towards and about him. The instant he discovered that his father was a lot of things that Snape had always claimed he was, Lupin's "well, we were very young then" nonsense or no, the *first thing* Harry should have done was gone to Snape and both apologized about poking into his very private things and said "What my father did was unforgiveable but I am not my father." It's a lot of his own failings and pride that has allowed this relationship to fester into something even worse than what he began it to be. (Though Snape has a huge part in this too, certainly, and I don't excuse his bitterness or cruelty towards all of his students in the least.) > > The problem with Good!Snape, particularly the Dumbledore'sMan!Snape > variety of that theory, is that it effect reduces Harry to a puppet. > The really important choices, in these scenarios, are those that have > been made by Dumbledore and Snape. Dumbledore, through his awesome > and far-seeing plan, and Snape, through his wrenching sacrifices, > have engineered Voldemort's doom by cementing a traitor at > Voldemort's right hand, and Harry is simply the first domino that > will set the process in motion at the final confrontation. Frankly, up until now Harry has BEEN a puppet to everyone around him, including Dumbledore, when it comes to the bigger picture as opposed to the villain of the day. In HBP it was particularly apparent - "Go this, do that, why aren't you being a manipulative little spy FASTER, Harry?!" - and the final book is going to be particularly interesting in the fact that now, for the first time, Harry really is on his own and acting with his own initiative. Thus Harry will have some choices to make where Snape is concerned, and those must be dealt with on more than a 'you betrayed us, now die' level for it to feel emotionally satisfying to me personally. The contrivedness, in my mind, comes from reducing Snape to a black-and-white battle, especially in light of what helped him become who he is. If Rowling is putting too much focus on Snape then it's her own error, but he's the emotional arc that's going to drive this ending in the fist place. It's the questions in his character - how cruelty breeds cruelty (and Snape's cruelty to Harry is fueling our hero's anger in turn), how we judge each other, the potential for redemption (Pettigrew can always deal with this topic, sure, but frankly I don't care about Pettigrew and I've found few other people who do either) - that will have to be what Harry learns at some point. He's already made the 'right vs. easy' choice and seen it made many times over. It's the question of Snape that's going to make the difference, that will have to make the difference. Which means that there is still a question. If the answer to his mystery is just that he looked evil, acted evil, fell into evil, remained evil, was evil - that's what will disappoint me, if that's Book 7's only approach. Rowling's puzzlement over Snape's popularity worries me because it implies that she doesn't really understand the resonance what she herself has written. - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Sun Aug 28 15:52:58 2005 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (James Bennett) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:52:58 -0400 Subject: Snape, Harry, Occlumency (was Re: Snape, Harry, and DADA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508281553.j7SFr8GL014355@ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138957 amiabledorsai wrote: > > It would be interesting to see them duel again if Harry ever > takes Snape's advice and learns to Occlude his mind properly. I think you hit the nail on the head; Harry is going to have to learn to be a very very good at Occlumency in order for him to do any better against Snape. Harry will need it when he goes up against LV. Could it be Snape was trying to teach Harry a hard lesson that Harry had failed to learned any other way? "jbenne27" From midnightowl6 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 22:14:07 2005 From: midnightowl6 at hotmail.com (P J) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:14:07 -0400 Subject: an old man's mistakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138958 >It's just too bad that you never get to hear what it is exactly that makes >Dumbledore trust Snape >so much! I know everyone (and their dog) has been >wondering what the reason is. It's true that >there must be some really >good reason, because he is so adamant in his trust of Snape. *snip* There is only one thing I can think of which might possibly explain DD's fierce loyalty to Snape and that is for Snape to have completely, and without reservation, opened his mind to DD and allowed him to "rummage around in there". That would've given DD the chance to determine Snape's innocence/motives/truth for himself. For a person as secretive as Snape, that would be a huge concession - something DD would've understood. My dogs have voiced no opinion on the subject. ;) PJ From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 22:31:00 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:31:00 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138959 > >>Betsy Hp: > > Nowhere do I see any evidence that Snape enjoyed Narcissa > > falling all over him. > > > >>Neri: > You mean like in "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's > tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand" (HBP > scholastic Ch. 2, p.36)? > But what you conveniently forget is that the passion must be > disguised, both inside the story from the present Bella, and in the > meta-thinking level from the readers. > Betsy Hp: There's no sympathy in Snape's eyes, or at least, none is described. This is where Snape's expression has gone blank so it's hard for me to see him as being moved. And though I can buy Snape trying to disguise his secret passion from Bellatrix, why would JKR try and hide it from her readers? If she was heading down this path shouldn't she foreshadow a bit? I have a sneaky suspicion you'd say JKR *has* foreshadowed and I'm being remarkably dense in overlooking it. But I honestly don't see any hints at a secret passion. (Is this the point of agree to disagree?) > >>Neri: > The blank face implies forced control, but not necessarily the > lack of passion. Snape is definitely doing some very fast > calculation there, but does he also calculate if undertaking this > mortal obligation would finally make Narcissa love him? Snape is > generally a very controlled and calculated person, but that > doesn't necessarily mean that his goals are also calculated and > rational. Only his tactics. > Betsy Hp: I just have a *really* hard time seeing Snape being this *incredibly* petty. Sign up to an Unbreakable Vow in the hopes that the hottie might slip you some sugar? What is Snape -- a drunk frat boy? Yes, Snape can go bat-poo crazy when his emotions are raised. We've seen this in PoA and we saw it in OotP. For Snape to make this kind of massive sacrifice at such a critical time (and Snape *must* realize how critical the times are no matter what side he's on) for such a heart on his sleeve reason he'd have to be operating on pure emotion. And, IMO, that level of emotion is impossible for Snape to hide. He's never been able to before. > >>Neri: > Snape despising Lucius indeed depends on you reading (it's obvious > enough to me, at least) but what is certain is that Snape never > even hints that he owes something to Lucius. He makes an > Unbreakable Vow and he never even suggests that he's doing it for > his friend Lucius. Betsy Hp: He doesn't have to, IMO. Narcissa brings Lucius up, invokes their friendship. Snape agrees to protect the Malfoy scion, so I think their friendship is implied. My personal theory (at the moment) is that Dumbledore and Snape feel they need something from the Malfoys (horcrux location information?) and that's why Snape hopes to bind the Malfoy family to his side. But he's got to be careful about it because he doesn't want Voldemort to think his loyalty is compromised. So I think Snape thought this Vow would be a good way to get the Malfoys without raising Voldemort's ire. Or at least, not raise it too badly. That's why I think Snape doesn't talk much about Lucius, he's on the out's with Voldemort. But he does show a certain amount of compassion for the Malfoy family and their woes. > >>Betsy Hp: > > First of all, who knew that Snape's nickname was the half-blood > > Prince? Lupin seemed totally unaware. > Neri: > But a secret, self-chosen nickname is likely to be much more > personal and revealing than something everybody knows and uses. Betsy Hp: So the question becomes, what does Snape's nickname reveal? Frankly, I think the answer is still up in the air and depends greatly on your view of Snape. Personally, I think it was Snape taking a hated family slur and making it his own. Possibly with Lily's help, since I doubt Snape came up with it on his own. (I can totally see Slughorn's fiesty Lily encouraging Snape to take pride in being a half-blood and having fun with the name Prince.) > >>Betsy Hp > > Second of all, if Mrs. Black called someone a half-blood > > *anything* do you really think she'd have meant it as a > > complement? > >>Neri: > That's why it's secret. As I previously wrote, I think our Severus > is very ambivalent and has a serious love/hate relationship with > the pureblood aristocracy. > Betsy Hp: Is there any evidence of this in canon? I haven't seen any, myself. And if Snape *was* interested in the WW "aristocracy" shouldn't he adobt at least *some* of the trappings? Even while hating himself a little for doing it? > >>Betsy Hp: > > And third of all, why do you think the nickname was self- > > invented? > >>Neri: > Even if it wasn't, it was of enough importance for him to sign in > the book that held his professional secrets. Betsy Hp: I'm not saying that the nickname didn't mean anything to him. If it was given to him by one of his few close friends I'm sure it meant a great deal to him. Just as the Marauders signed their map with their nicknames, Snape signed his book with his. > >>Neri: > And he proclaims this nickname proudly during his final > flight. "I, the Half-Blood Prince!" Isn't that a bit pathetic for > a grown man? Betsy Hp: Remus and Sirius still referred to each other as Moony and Padfoot didn't they? Why should Snape be ashamed of his childhood nickname? Yes, the proclamation was cheezy, but I think it was important (for both Snape and JKR) to make very clear that those notes were his. That combined with how well Harry marked the hiding place of the book gives a pretty strong hint (IMO) that the half-blood Prince will be of some importance in book 7. > >>Betsy Hp: > > This is the weakest part of ACID POPS, IMO. Because I see > > little plot reason for Snape to be madly in love with Narcissa. > >>Neri: > Excuse me! The entire HPfGU list is in upheaval searching for > Snape's reason to do such a stupid thing as undertaking the > Unbreakable Vow, and I have yet to see an explanation that comes > even *close* to Snape being madly in love with Narcissa. Betsy Hp: Heh. What? They are? (she asks, tongue firmly in cheek) But it's a non-starter, IMO. So Snape's madly in love with Narcissa. So what? What does it do for the next book's plot? What does it explain (except for the Vow)? How does it effect Harry? Does it even clear up some of Snape's ambiguity? > >>Betsy Hp: > > LOLLIPOPS, on the other hand, provides a possible motive for > > Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with Dumbledore. > >>Neri: > First, you treat "Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with > Dumbledore" as a given, while right now it is in considerable > doubt. Betsy Hp: For me there is no doubt, that's true (no ESE!Snape argument has made sense to me, yet). But, even if you think Snape is ESE, LOLLIPOPS provides a motive that *Dumbledore* may have found credible. And it's something that Dumbledore would have been hesitant to share with Harry. > >>Neri: > Second, even assuming for a moment that it *is* a given, ACID POPS > can explain it as well as LOLLIPOPS. Snape "joining with > Dumbledore" must have occurred not long after Narcissa married > Lucius. Severus' last hopes were shattered, and he secretly joined > Dumbledore in desperate hope that Voldy will lose, Lucius will get > killed, and Snape would become the hero of the winning side while > Cissy would be free again. > Betsy Hp: It wouldn't explain Dumbledore's trust, though. The, hopefully her husband will die, reason wouldn't do much to win Dumbledore to his side I think. Plus, Dumbledore has already told us (and Harry) that Snape felt a great deal of remorse for setting Voldemort onto the Potters. I think Dumbledore was telling a truth there (though not the entire story of course). > >>Neri: > And ACID POPS isn't bangy? Just think of what Draco will do when he > finds out. And Lucius and Snape meeting at dawn, wands at twenty > paces? And whom would Narcissa prefer? > Betsy Hp: But it's only bangy for the Malfoys. I doubt Harry could care two tiddly winks about the Malfoy family drama. The final book will focus, I think, on Harry. If Snape's story takes him out of Harry's view than I doubt we'll see much of it in play. And won't that be a waste of a wonderfully mysterious and ambiguious character? > >>Neri: > ACID POPS is equal or beats LOLLIPOPS in either canon, theme, > plot considerations, BANGiness, and you-name-it. The only thing > ACID POPS can't supply is that wistful image of NobleHero!Snape, > sacrificing himself in the ungrateful role of a triple agent all > for the love of a woman who is fifteen years dead. Betsy Hp: Not if the book is about Harry it doesn't. Come on, even if Snape is evil imagine him telling Harry the reason Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily was that she was supposed to be a gift for Snape. If that doesn't raise a Luke level scream of anger out of Harry, I don't know what will. Though, of course, I'm holding out for NobleHero!Snape in the end. *sighs wistfully* > >>Valky: > > I just can't stand Snape in love with anybody, it doesn't work for > me. *shivers* > > >>colebiancardi: > > I can't see Snape turning his back on LV for a married woman with > a newborn baby who is married to his childhood nemesis, either. > Betsy Hp: Snape doesn't neccessarily have to have been in romantic love with Lily for my theory to work. He was canonically fairly lonely (sitting alone under a bush in OotP) so any friend would be important to him. I think he and Lily became secret friends (through a mutual interest in potions) in their first year and she gave him his nickname. I think he visited Lily at her home and he's the "horrible boy" who spoke of the dementors guarding Azkaban that Petunia referred to in OotP. Around fifth year something happened. Perhaps Snape was being actively recruited by Voldemort. Perhaps, when his invented spell became known by his classmates he suspected Lily of betraying him. Either way, when he was jumped by James and Sirius he and Lily were arguing. She still came to his rescue but he attacked her, calling her the worst name he could think of. Their friendship was officially broken. So Snape becomes a Death Eater. Possibly he started having problems towards the beginning. (Like Regulus Black.) Maybe he was blissfully ignorant and quite happy. Either way, he overhears the prophecy while on a Death Eater mission and runs back to share what he heard with Voldemort. Then, to his horror, his information is used to fuel Voldemort's intense interest in seeing the entire Potter family (including his old friend, Lily) slaughtered. Snape runs to Dumbledore and tells him everything. Dumbledore believes him and puts the Potters into hiding. (Or maybe into better hiding -- since Dumbledore knew the prophecy already.) But, thanks to James's misplaced trust in his friends (Snape's POV), the Potters are betrayed and Lily is killed. Snape is heartbroken and swears vengence (or whatever) and Dumbledore realizes that he can fully trust Severus Snape. Not much canon to back this theory, I'll admit. But it makes a certain amount of sense to me, and boy would it drive Harry round the bend. Of course, I myself like the idea of Snape in love because otherwise what a waste of the sexy. Betsy Hp (who wonders if she could have possibly made this post longer) From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Aug 28 22:59:50 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:59:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082814585c029da6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Frankly, up until now Harry has BEEN a puppet to everyone around > him, including Dumbledore, when it comes to the bigger picture as > opposed to the villain of the day. I belong to a school of thought that thinks this line is overemphasized. Rarely is it that the text comes out and says "This was actually all set up"; more often, this is an assumption folded in by fans (particularly the conspiracy theorists--how is the Safe House these days?) to explain things when the surface explanation (things just *happened* that way!) seem unsatisfactory. My own suspicion is that the simpler explanations are more likely to be the actual ones. > It's the questions in his character - how cruelty breeds cruelty > (and Snape's cruelty to Harry is fueling our hero's anger in turn), > how we judge each other, the potential for redemption (Pettigrew > can always deal with this topic, sure, but frankly I don't care > about Pettigrew and I've found few other people who do either) Peter became immensely more interesting to me post-HBP; he's always been an open question, a wild card, and I think he's going to play a very major role in the denoument. Prepare for disappointment, then, if you don't find him interesting--I think Rowling does. > Rowling's puzzlement over Snape's popularity worries me because it > implies that she doesn't really understand the resonance what she > herself has written. Hehe--is it Rowling's blindness to what she's put on the page, or have readers cheerfully led themselves astray? The genius of how Snape is written is more in what is implied, what is notably *not* there than what is. If you go and actually think about what we know for dead sure about Snape, peeks into his character, it's remarkably thin. My good man Neri posted a list a while back about How To Write Snape, which was remarkably accurate. I don't pretend to know what Rowling is thinking, but I do know this; she may well be thinking something very different, as the ultimate end/solution/key to the character, than we have been. You can read a number of patterns out of Snape's character, and it's only in retrospect that we'll be able to see which is the correct one. Snape is interesting precisely because the reader is encouraged to fill in so many of the blanks. But, as we saw this past book, interesting things happen with fans when the way they filled the blanks turned out to be one not in the text, and even contradicted. If you *want* to read Snape as the thematic key to the story, and read *those particular themes*, one solution will be inadequate for you. But that all hinges on those being the themes played out. For example, our ideas about an essentially noble and honorable Snape could well be solidly 100% confirmed...or they could be revealed as only projections on our part. Oh, the joys of series fiction! -Nora rejoices having slaughtered her qualifiers with extreme competence From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Aug 28 23:01:24 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:01:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > And therein, I'm afraid, lies precisely the problem many people, > including myself, see with the Good!Snape scenario. It in effect > means the books cease being Harry's story and start being Snape's > story. I don't think that's what JKR intends (and I think that > accounts for most of her concern about Snape being so popular). > > The problem with Good!Snape, particularly the Dumbledore'sMan!Snape > variety of that theory, is that it effect reduces Harry to a puppet. > The really important choices, in these scenarios, are those that have > been made by Dumbledore and Snape. Dumbledore, through his awesome > and far-seeing plan, and Snape, through his wrenching sacrifices, > have engineered Voldemort's doom by cementing a traitor at > Voldemort's right hand, and Harry is simply the first domino that > will set the process in motion at the final confrontation. Hickengruendler: I disagree with you there. Good!Snape does not have to mean that it won't be Harry who will defeat Voldemort in the end or who will be the crucial character. First of all, Harry is not really alone. He still has a lot of faithful friends, some of them were powerful in their own way, who will do everything to help him if possible. I don't see why Snape shouldn't be one of them as well, even if he is of course at best an ally, and not a friend. For example, if the fandom speculation is true and Neville will somehow defeat Bellatrix in the end, it won't take away anything from Harry's glory. Of course nobody of his friends can take away Harry's burden, therefore from this point of view he is alone. But Snape can't take away Harry's burden as well. He could at best somehow help him. And Harry of course won't go for help to Snape anyway, since he considers him to be evil. Therefore it's not that Snape can do that much to help him. I suspect he will do something from which the good side benefits, he might even become *a* hero, just like Ron and Hermione probably will become heroes (and hopefully Neville, Hagrid or some other characters as well) but in the end it will still be Harry who will be *the* hero. From auburnvixen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 22:45:57 2005 From: auburnvixen at hotmail.com (ponygirl_auburn_vixen) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:45:57 -0000 Subject: Where did Ron get the Galleons? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138962 CathyD: What I would really like to know is where Ron got the 9 Galleons to pay for his book... auburn: I noticed that the Weasleys were able to spend more money in Diagon Alley this time around (Ron buying several items at his brothers' shop and Ginny buying the Pygmy Puffskein, for example) and assumed it was due to Arthur's promotion to a more prestigious and responsible position. Auburn From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Aug 28 23:42:15 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:42:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082814585c029da6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138963 Lady Indigo: > If Rowling is putting too much focus on > Snape then it's her own error, but he's the > emotional arc that's going to drive this > ending in the fist place. houyhnhnm: I have been wondering if Rowling hasn't made Snape the most interesting character in the book (to adults anyway) because she has unconsciously put a great deal of herself into the character. If so, it doesn't bode well for an honest ending. What can you say about an author who claims to be the model for Hermione and Harry, has apparently sorted herself into Gryffindor House, but who loves to give teasing interviews hinting that she may kill off the hero in book 7, and has become a billionairess in the process. Sounds pretty Slytherin to me. From juli17 at aol.com Sun Aug 28 23:55:13 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:55:13 EDT Subject: Forcing Voldemort's hand (was Re: Timing & the Dada position) Message-ID: <214.7e06ac1.3043a8e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138964 Jen wrote: I completely agree with you. I think DD gave Snape the position because he knew he was going to die soon and he always needed Snape with him before. > lupinlore: But DID he know that Severus would function only one year in DADA? It's an interesting question. The idea of the position being cursed is simple conjecture from DD, based on the fact of what's happened after he refused the position to Voldemort. Now, he has pretty good evidence, but no proof that we know of. Even if he did have proof, consider the situation. He is placing Voldemort's "spy" in the critical DADA position. Perhaps, far from being a way to ensure that Snape leaves at the end of the year, he sees this as a way to force Voldemort to remove whatever curse he's put on the position. He is, in essence, forcing Voldy's hand. Now Voldemort must either remove the curse or lose his source of information inside Hogwarts at an absolutely critical juncture. Amiable Dorsai: Interesting notion. I assumed--and still believe--that Dumbledore's prime motivation was to put Horace Slughorn in a position where he could be confronted by Lily Evans' son. I thought that he was prepared to sacrifice Snape in order to get the true record of Slughorn's conversation with Riddle about Horcruxes. I hadn't considered the possibility that transfering Snape to DADA could have had a beneficial side effect. Bravo. Julie says: I'll just add my two cents here! Whether DD believed in the curse he certainly knew of it and the fact that no one had lasted more than a year in the DADA position. This didn't mean that Snape had to be "sacrificed" in any manner, but that he would leave the position by the end of the year, either by choice or not (which could also mean he'd return to the Potions position rather than leaving Hogwarts). OTOH, putting Snape in the DADA position does force Voldemort's hand, if Snape can't stay there for more than a year because of the curse. So there is the opportunity left open to Voldemort to remove the curse if he wants Snape to stay in the position. OTOH (pardon the seesawing!), what reason would Dumbledore have for wanting Voldemort to remove the curse at this juncture? The curse does seem to have to unfortunate effect of bringing out the worst in the DADA teachers, but it doesn't seem to force anyone to destroy themselves. Certainly Lockhart, FakeMoody and Umbridge didn't need much assistance--and in fact, the curse proved useful in those cases by unmasking their true characters. (Is it odd that the curse seems far more useful to the Order than to Voldemort, who seems to have invented a curse that keeps those he might plant or use from maintaining the position--and in fact reveals their true intentions? How does that benefit Voldemort? But I guess that's a subject for another post. While I'm writing this, I'm thinking the apparent nature of this curse also gives a possible different slant to JKR's answer about why DD has never given the position to Snape even though Snape has applied for it every year. JKR says it's "because Dumbledore fears the DADA position might bring out the worst in Snape." Well, it brings out the worst in *everyone* who takes the position, so Snape would be no different! So JKR's answer isn't necessarily specific to Snape. She could have said the same thing if DD has refused to give it to Flitwick, or McGonagall, or any other teacher. Granted, some people's worst is very different than other people's worst, which may be why some earlier teachers simply left the position and moved on, and weren't destroyed by it in the manner of Quirrell or Lockhart, or even damaged by their own weaknesses like Lupin. We know Snape has a shady past and perhaps a potentially unhealthy devotion to the Dark Arts (if not to using them, at least to knowing all he can about them). But I think if Dumbledore truly trusted Snape as much as he kept saying he did, then this wouldn't be an issue. I think the real reason DD didn't give Snape the position is because he was waiting for the time when giving Snape the position would be most USEFUL to him and the Order. And what better time than when Voldemort has solidified his power, the Dementors are on the loose creating havoc, and when the time for the prophecy regarding Harry and Voldemort is looming? Everything is coming to a head, and if Snape is ever going to make use of his connection to Voldemort, and Harry is going to learn what he *must* know to defeat Voldemort--about Tom's past, the horcruxes, and even what Snape can teach him about DADA (and about Potions in the guise of the HBP)--then the time is NOW. So while Dumbledore did need the information from Slughorn, and maybe it would be nice if Voldemort lifted the curse (though if he is destroyed in the final battle a year or two hence, it could become a moot point), I can't see either of these as being the primary reason for Dumbledore giving Snape the DADA post. Most likely to me is simply that the time has come--and not only for Snape and Harry to make the contributions they've been long preparing for, but perhaps for Dumbledore to do so too. Which could well be to destroy as many horcruxes as possible while teaching Harry how to destroy the rest, even though the task would mean his death (and I think it did, as he knew from the beginning--at least the beginning of HBP). As for Snape's final outcome, well, it's now left entirely in Snape's hands. As with Harry, Dumbledore's done all he can for Snape and has to trust Snape with his own destiny. (I am obviously one who believes in DD!Snape, BTW.) Snape may live, or Snape may die, but either way he will make good on his long ago promise to Dumbledore to help bring Voldemort down, and thus will finish earning his redemption. (And since Dumbledore thinks death is but another adventure, Snape's redemption is far more important to Dumbledore than Snape's mere life.) That's my interpretation anyway, Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From djklaugh at comcast.net Mon Aug 29 00:10:21 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:10:21 -0000 Subject: Where did Ron get the Galleons? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138965 > CathyD: > What I would really like to know is where Ron got the 9 Galleons to > pay for his > book... > > auburn: > I noticed that the Weasleys were able to spend more money in Diagon > Alley this time around (Ron buying several items at his brothers' > shop and Ginny buying the Pygmy Puffskein, for example) and assumed it > was due to Arthur's promotion to a more prestigious and responsible > position. > > Auburn Plus having Fred and George living on their own and supporting themselves. Now there are only Ron and Ginny at home and only their school expenses to pay for. Life, financially anyway, seems to be looking up for the Weasleys.... couldn't happen to a nicer family IMO! Deb (djklaugh) From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 01:16:03 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 01:16:03 -0000 Subject: the Grande Finale in Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138966 Hagrid/aussie Wrote: Like any good stage production of a Who-Dung-It (sorry - Who Done It ... I still like the You-No-Poo joke), all the surviving caste need to make an apppearance in the finale, even if it is only to be killed off. So what is your most spectacular send off for LV and/or Harry? - Some more of the twins' fireworks to cause a distraction? - Hagrid sending Fluffy (with ear muffs); Buckbeak; thestrals and other "little beauties"? - Olivander's arsenal of wands backfiring on the DE when trying to use forbidden curses? - Charlie Weasly astride Norbert, the dragon? - Mrs Figg with uzis, grenade launchers, and ... ok, that is going too far, now. ... Dudley, maybe, but not Mrs Figg. NB. This is not for Fan Fics, but by brain-storming, we may hit upon some viable posibilities for the end of the end of the books. vmonte: Ok, this is fun. How about: "I am Spartacus!" During the final fight the Weasley children burst in polyjuiced into Harry's likeness. Much confusion ensues. The cave memory(?) is a preview of the last battle in book 7 when Snape removes the horcrux from Harry's head and transfers it into his own. The horcrux acts like a conscience and Snape realizes all the wrong he has done. He grabs Voldemort and jumps with him through the veil. Vivian - HAHA From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 02:47:30 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:47:30 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > Magda Grantwich: > > > "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, > > > "so much the better for me, so much the worse for him." > > > > But it doesn't include the power to rise above cheesy > > dialogue. I cringed when I read this sentence and thought, > > yeah right. > > Derek: > I dunno... it actually sounds exactly like sixteen-year-old > bravado to me. :-) Valky: I didn't think cheesy, really either. But then I never liked Severus all that much. I like Harry's bravado and I entitle him to it, he outdrew Snape in the DADA class. Maybe we'll get that mexican standoff between these two, it would be more appropriate in the plot wouldn't it ;D(although I did giggle lots at Eggplants suggestion for the final face off). phoenixgod2000: Sorry, the cheesiest line in the book is when Harry actually uses the word Hark in a sentence and he isn't singing a christmas song. I could not get over that one. Valky: Where did he say that? I'm curious, I don't remember it. I dunno about cheesy there either, I think hark is still in common use in Britain, among the blue collar mob. Ever seen EastEnders? From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 03:30:17 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy L) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 03:30:17 -0000 Subject: The significance of Harry having Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Valky: > > Can I first ask Cindy, is that name gaelic? It's beautiful. If tis > Gael then twuld be pronounced eevneeyah-ch yes? Anyhow I like it very > much and it says nice things about you :D CINDY: Yes, it is Gaelic, and is indeed pronounced as you said. It means "joyful" - and thank you! > On to Harry's eyes. I don't mean to shoot down this line of reasoning. > (I *really* don't), but I distinctly remember a quote from JKR > (pertaining to some artworks of Harry without his glasses on) in which > Jo implies that Harry's eyes are a weakness rather than a strength. > > I think the actual quote reads "...don't they understand that they are > his [Harry's] vulnerability." Paraphrase. CINDY: I have read very few of JKR's interviews, so I guess I am a little out of the loop. I only based my theories on the books. So I was unaware that Harry's eyes were supposed to be a vulnerability. It doesn't seem to suggest that in the book....so I don't know. :-/ > Valky: > I haven't really got an answer as to the significance of Harry's eyes, > as a vulnerability. But he certainly gets blinded a lot in the books. > I have speculated on that before and got nowhere but it's the only > specific eye vulnerability I found in Harry. and it doesn't seem to > have much to do with Lily. So I'll leave it with you, maybe something > will turn up this time :D CINDY: Well, I just thought because everyone who mentioned Harry's eyes in the book seemed to indicate that he had "Lily's eyes". I don't know why they would stress that if Lily had nothing to do with it......Could very well be another red herring. :-) Cindy (aoibhneach) From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 03:48:07 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy L) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 03:48:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082814585c029da6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: If the answer to his mystery is just that he looked evil, > acted evil, fell into evil, remained evil, was evil - that's what will > disappoint me, if that's Book 7's only approach. Rowling's puzzlement over > Snape's popularity worries me because it implies that she doesn't really > understand the resonance what she herself has written. > > - Lady Indigo > CINDY: I will not be disappointed, because Snape has been such a *delicious* character right from the beginning, and I think it would be fine if he remained evil. I, myself, am with JKR. I don't understand how people can like Snape as a human being, other than the fact that he makes the books extremely interesting. And I have certainly found his utter evil-ness a great balance to the books. I think, if he turned out to be good after all the grief he has given Harry, it would be a little cheesy. But that is just my opinion, and I know I am probably in the minority. Cindy (aoibhneach) From aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 03:54:43 2005 From: aoibhneach1 at yahoo.com (Cindy L) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 03:54:43 -0000 Subject: an old man's mistakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Thomassian" wrote: > It's just too bad that you never get to hear what it is exactly that makes Dumbledore trust Snape so much! I know everyone (and their dog) has been wondering what the reason is. It's true that there must be some really good reason, because he is so adamant in his trust of Snape. Not even McGonagall has been told exactly why though! The reason will surely come out in book 7; if we can only just stand to wait that long........ I know that JKR had said that book 6 was the time for some answers and not just more questions, but it seems that I have almost as many questions as before! I will be going to Scotland next summer. Just might have to track her down....... Just kidding! > > Queen Jennifer > I think Dumbledore trusted Snape because Dumbledore is human, not some divine being, and as a human he is not infallible. I think people have gotten the impression from the books that he is perfect. I think JKR is showing us that he is not; that he is too trusting, and that his mistakes tend to "be huger" (I think that is the way Dumbledore describes it - I don't have the book at the moment). I wrote something about that in my post #138347 Cindy (aoibhneach) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 04:14:24 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:14:24 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138971 > Valky wrote: > > > I like Snape as a unicorn, the lady trapped him because he soft on > > women, especially beautiful fragile princesses like Narcissa. His > > gentleness with Draco's injury just smoked of protectiveness of > > the child. > > Neri: > Why, Valky, we have *just* the product for you: ACID POPS Light. > "This brand is for those members who prefer their Snape noble at > heart and the savior of damsels in distress." Valky now: That pretty close to what I am reaching for, but not quite. I find St George Snape a bit icky, and it's not exactly the same as Sucker-for Princesses-Charms-Unicorn!Snape. My Snape doesn't really have to be noble exactly. The Unicorn is just charmed by the hands of the Ladies, and we have two opposite cases in play here - Lily, the nice Princess to whom the Unicorn comes gets a nap on her lap and a token of her sweetness to take away with him, and we have the 'other' Princess Narcissa, who lays a trap for the Unicorn beckons him to her side and snares him. The Noble saviour of damsels in distress would be the James type in my book, rather than Snape. > Neri: > Sounds to me just like what you were looking for. And I'll be > completely fair with you and even read the small print on the > bottom: > "Regardless of brand, all consumers of ACID POPS support the > assertion that Severus' emotions for Narcissa were a main reason for > his choice to undertake the Unbreakable Vow, and that Narcissa was > at least partially aware of these emotions and stirring them." > That's the essence of ACID POPS." Valky: Yes, I can agree to that, in basis, even a trapped Unicorn Snape fits this criteria. > Neri: > I believe you've already expressed such sentiments in your post, so > you're not committing yourself to anything here. I don't even mind > if you try mixing it with LOLLIPOPS. Really I don't. It might make > for a nice combination, I wouldn't know. Haven't tried it myself > because, frankly, I just can't stand *that* amount of sugar. Valky: OOh I never could either, I spat my first Lollipop a while back now. :D The Acid Pops really do offset the overload of the Lollipops though, when they're mixed. the A.P. has a real bite to it, so there isn't so much of a head rush and loss of all sense of reality from the L.P's. (LOL) (oooh I am in soo much trouble for that.. ) > Neri: > Oh, and about Maternal!Snape, he doesn't interfere with ACID POPS > Light at all. You can keep him, no problems. Only I personally think > it's a pity that his protectiveness doesn't extend to 15 yrs old > princesses just because their front teeth are too large. Valky: Yes, well Unicorn Snape has a bumpy road ahead, no doubt. I am missing two of my canons at the moment so I can't enter this battle *right* now. I can say, one might wonder if taking "I see no difference" literally will help any, but I won't fire it yet.. Oh darn I already did. > > > > colebiancardi wrote: > > > > I have to say... what people will do for a ship - LOL. Somehow, I > > can not see Snape wasting away for either a dead person(Lily) or > > for a very married woman(Cissa) for 15 years. I can't see Snape > > turning his back on Voldemort because he wanted to *win* Cissa's > > love, her being a pureblood and a Voldemort supporter - I mean, > > talk about a way to woo a woman - join the other side that she is > > on!! I can't see Snape turning his back on LV for a married woman > > with a newborn baby who is married to his childhood nemesis, > > either. Valky: Oh I do like them apples there Colebiancardi. Me neither, pitiful wasted of a broken heart Snape is not necessary in either agreement is it? I m not buying any broken heart sweets. Sorry, not interested. > > Neri: > Wouldn't he also > harbor and cultivate an old unrequited love? Wouldn't it also make > him act irrationally at critical moments? Valky: Well um yes, I suppose he could, but I don't think it would take the place of his first passion which is his rise to glory, and I don't think it could stand as a respectable testimony to Holy Dumbledore, y'know thou shalt not covet the other mans.. etc. It just doesn't seem right to me. Snapes turn IMHO, really must be based on something far more sublime than a teenage crush that never came to be, friendship I think is a much closer match, and I'm not even buying that outright. I think, that there was some service done, other than spying, something stark that revealed innocence in him. Enough to satisfy Dumbledore that Snape was essentially not evil, in spite of his awfulness. Not good, but certainly not evil either. > >>Valky: > > I just can't stand Snape in love with anybody, it doesn't work for > me. *shivers* > Betsy Hp: Snape doesn't neccessarily have to have been in romantic love with Lily for my theory to work. Valky: Yesss Betsy, I think we can honestly say that I agree with that. Valky Still not sure if she prefers either of the Pops and is keeping a few of each on hand. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 04:48:28 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:48:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138972 > lupinlore: > And therein, I'm afraid, lies precisely the problem many people, > including myself, see with the Good!Snape scenario. It in effect > means the books cease being Harry's story and start being Snape's > story. I don't think that's what JKR intends (and I think that > accounts for most of her concern about Snape being so popular). I keep reading post after post saying "I think Snape is good" lately (and taking great comfort in them); who are these "many people" and where have they gone? I want to know what they think in their own words in the wake of all the "Snape is good" posts just in case I need convincing otherwise. I also want to know if these same people think Les Miserables is the story of Inspector Javert. (Or is that not a "hero" story?) I don't recall when and where JKR expressed concern about Snape's popularity that was obviously different from her concern about Draco's popularity. JKR herself said that Snape is fun to write; why wouldn't she want him to be fun to read? Neither Snape nor Draco are characters JKR thinks are good, healthy romantic interests or role models. Whether or not Snape and/or Draco end up on the side of the light, they're STILL not good romantic interests or role models. Anyway, if Snape is (and has always been) good and JKR was counting on us thinking he wasn't, there's your concern right there. And her expression of concern itself could be a fish of a carmine color. > lupinlore: > JKR has implied pretty strongly that she's following the standard > patterns of coming of age/hero's journey literature. Whether that > is a good idea or not is another question, but I think we can take > her at her word. That means the story is about a Hero's growing up, > and in the end facing his challenge alone with HIS OWN DECISIONS > being the crucial component of the outcome. Yes, it's true that the > actual resolution of the story might lie in the hands of a surprise > character (Gollum, Vader), but it must be the independent choices > of the hero that bring everything to the climax. It was Frodo's > choices, including his choice to spare Gollum, that brought > everything to a head at the Crack of Doom. It was Luke's choice to > appeal and reach out to his father that redeemed Vader. So, you can envision no denouement in Book 7 which would allow Snape to have been exactly what Dumbledore said he was, an opponent of Voldemort all along (from when he took refuge with Dumbledore) and also allow Harry to fulfill a classic hero's journey? Here you sell JKR short, IMO, while simultaneously saying "I think we can take her at her word." LOTR? Think of Gandalf's choices. And Sam's. Not to mention Galadriel's (left to his own devices, Frodo would have been happy to hand the ring over, lock, stock, and destiny). Eowyn's. (While she didn't drive events AT Mount Doom, they wouldn't have been possible without everyone who fought on the side of Light. That's what makes it such a great epic.) What about Strider? (A hero's story within a hero's story, that one!) Without him, there would have been no Fellowship. > The problem with Good!Snape, particularly the Dumbledore'sMan!Snape > variety of that theory, is that it effect reduces Harry to a puppet. > The really important choices, in these scenarios, are those that > have been made by Dumbledore and Snape. Dumbledore, through his > awesome and far-seeing plan, and Snape, through his wrenching > sacrifices, have engineered Voldemort's doom by cementing a traitor > at Voldemort's right hand, and Harry is simply the first domino > that will set the process in motion at the final confrontation. What awesome and far-seeing plan? What wrenching sacrifices? And who's to say which choices are the really important ones, at this point? Somewhere in the series I decided that, were I in Dumbledore's shoes, Harry would have led a very different life--from the instant I got ahold of him (after the murders). But Dumbledore limited his interference to planting him in his relatives' care (the most appropriate course of action even in strictly Muggle terms) and invoking a continuation of his mother's sacrificial protections. I would not have limited myself during Harry's first year at Hogwarts to passing James's Invisibility Cloak to Harry with a suggestion he "Use it well," made the only exemption allowed The Boy Who Lived an opportunity to play on the Quidditch team a year earlier than the rules specified, and I certainly would not have restrained myself to give only advice regarding the Mirror of Erised. I would have been directing Harry's every move pretty much outright long before Dumbledore's hints to Harry and Hermione that Sirius Black and Buckbeak could be saved. And I certainly would not have allowed Harry to bumble and bungle his way through the Triwizard Tournament (international relations be damned). As a matter of fact, I'd have renewed a "homing beacon" charm on Harry regularly so that he would never truly be out of my reach; events in the graveyard would have had to happen without Harry's blood. I would have made sure that Harry knew in his fifth year that my unwillingness to so much as look at him had some meaning beyond what he might imagine. All in all, it seems to me that Dumbledore has bent over backwards to AVOID making a puppet of Harry. As for Snape, well, HE signed up for a lifetime membership in a murderous gang, then bailed. Dumbledore provided him with an unassailable character reference with the MoM, saving him from prison (where he'd be likely to be murdered by loyal DE's) and actual physical refuge as well as a livelihood. Pretending to be Voldemort's man while being Dumbledore's man was about the only "viable" course of action left to Severus Snape, IMO, unless we want to postulate that he could have gone into the "we'll make them think you're dead" protection program. (What do you want to bet, though, that the Dark Mark functions a lot like the homing beacon I'd have fixed Harry up with?) > Consider, in order for Dumbledore'sMan!Snape to be true, Harry will > have never REALLY been alone. He would have always been supported, > even at the final moment, by Superspy!Snape. In order for this to > be true, Harry's choices have never really been the crucial steps > leading to the defeat of Voldemort, they are mearly variables in > Dumbledore's grand plan. Furthermore, it means that the entire > scene atop the tower was a play for Harry's benefit, reducing him to > a credulous dupe led astray by his own prejudices. Was Snape present when HRH got past the protections around the Stone? Was he there in the Chamber of Secrets? We know he was no help in rescuing Sirius and Buckbeak, or we have been reading VERY different books from what we've assumed. Did Snape help Harry get through the Triwizard tasks? Face the resurrected Voldemort, fresh out of the pot? What about the dementors in Little Whinging, was he helping there? Where was he when Harry was leading his classmates and friends on the raid at the MoM? There have been about eleven posted scenarios about what really happened on the tower, and only one of them suggested that the scene on the tower was anything to do with manipulating Harry. I must be missing big chunks of your argument, because I just don't see this at all. While HBP is the first book where every page (aside from the first chapter of PS/SS) wasn't dependent on Harry's POV, and HBP is the first book whose title did not refer to someone or something first introduced within its pages, neither of these things, IMO, indicates to me that this is in danger of not being Harry's story anymore. > lupinlore: > I have to confess that I agree with Eggplant in finding this > outcome contrived, poorly written, and just plain silly. It would > also be very, very boring -- Harry was wrong about Snape yet again, > how terribly original of JKR. I am perplexed that you are so certain that it can't be done, and done well. Do you plan to refrain from reading the final volume until someone you trust has a chance to do so and let you know if it's worth it? For all we know, the Founders may reappear, climbing back out of the Sorting Hat, and "sort" everything out in some sort of enormous, four-way deux ex machina. While I have a hard time imagining how *that* could come about without being extremely what-you-said, JKR may very well be capable of doing even that in a way which leaves readers satisfied. (I didn't start reading HP until after PoA came out, because I couldn't imagine "an orphan in a world where magic is real" being a description of any story I wouldn't find stilted, sickly sweet, and about as deep as a postage stamp. Surprise, surprise! A sufficiency of my friends finally vouched for HP, and the rest is part of my personal history.) > lupinlore: > Now, just because it's Harry's story doesn't mean other characters > can't change and make effective choices. In fact, one of my > arguments with JKR to this point is that she has been so VERY > wedded to the standard formula that she has missed a lot of > interesting possibilities in this regard. But those choices can't > be allowed to undercut the Hero's status, and Dumbledore'sMan!Snape > would do exactly that. If JKR goes in that direction of > undercutting the Hero's Journey formula, I would have been much more > impressed had she kept Sirius alive to give Harry love and support > -- that at least would have been a refreshing and pleasant change of > pace. Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would just be forced and preachy. I think that one conflict we will see in Book 7 will be Harry's struggle with his hatred of Snape. I think it will "dog" him throughout the final volume, but that he will not readily question his choice to feel for Snape all the hatred he believes Snape deserves. While Harry is the Hero, he is a hero the wise and kindly wizard-mentor already reminded again and again that the most special and important thing about him was how much he was loved and that he could love. I think Harry will have to let go of his hatred of Snape without any evidence that Snape is deserving; handily for my theory, this would comprise part of the books' becoming "less secular"--in that the greatest love in Christian theology is one which *no one* is deserving of. While it might be inherently "preachy," whether or not it is "forced" will depend on the writing. JKR has proven herself already capable of unbelievable things. And I'm not a proponent of Christian theology, yet such a "preachy" outcome does not disturb me unduly. The books have already been fairly preachy, IMO. > lady.indigo: > > I think a lot of Snape's continuing problems have to do with Harry > being an utter idiot towards and about him. The instant he > discovered that his father was a lot of things that Snape had always > claimed he was, Lupin's "well, we were very young then" nonsense or > no, the *first thing* Harry should have done was gone to Snape and > both apologized about poking into his very private things and said > "What my father did was unforgiveable but I am not my father." It's > a lot of his own failings and pride that has allowed this > relationship to fester into something even worse than what he began > it to be. (Though Snape has a huge part in this too, certainly, and > I don't excuse his bitterness or cruelty towards all of his students > in the least.) I think a lot of *Harry's* continuing problems have to do with not seeing beyond the hatred Snape has so efficiently engendered in him. And I can just imagine the scene if Harry had done as you propound. I believe Harry was actually prepared to say something at least vaguely conciliatory to Snape when Snape became outright violent. (This is an old argument; I was here for it after OoP came out. I am on the side that says Snape's behavior towards Harry was and always had been unconscionable and that Harry's response had been, erm, to be expected. Otherwise known as deserved. See my previous paragraph +1.) > lady.indigo: > Frankly, up until now Harry has BEEN a puppet to everyone around > him, including Dumbledore, when it comes to the bigger picture as > opposed to the villain of the day. > nrenka: > I belong to a school of thought that thinks this line is > overemphasized. Rarely is it that the text comes out and says > "This was actually all set up"; more often, this is an assumption > folded in by fans (particularly the conspiracy theorists--how is > the Safe House these days?) to explain things when the surface > explanation (things just *happened* that way!) seem unsatisfactory. Along these same lines, one of the things I find both charming and maddening about the books is JKR's propensity for throwing out things like the (actually nonexistent) "garroting gas" in OoP. We get whiplash wondering what we are to take seriously: okay, there is a vapor capable of killing people and no one is calling the MoM in with aurors to track down the source in spite of the fact that it *seems* someone has filled a school corridor with the stuff. Or that Peeves lying in wait to push a bust of someone or other onto the head of some unsuspecting student is just SOP and no one thinks much of it, in spite of the fact that such an injury in RL would likely prove mortal. It's one of the reasons the books work...and one of the reasons they don't, sometimes. (Very much like life, IMO. I may treat my upcoming full 6-book reread as an occasion to document each and every time the books have counted on one hand on our suspension of disbelief and gently mocked us for it on the other hand.) Sandy aka msbeadsley, well aware little of this is original From lady.indigo at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 01:50:12 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:50:12 -0400 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee705082814585c029da6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee7050828185090d4977@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138973 > Lady Indigo: > > Frankly, up until now Harry has BEEN a puppet to everyone > > around him, including Dumbledore, when it comes to the > > bigger picture as opposed to the villain of the day. Nora: > I belong to a school of thought that thinks this line is > overemphasized. Rarely is it that the text comes out and says > "This was actually all set up"; more often, this is an > assumption folded in by fans (particularly the conspiracy > theorists--how is the Safe House these days?) to explain things > when the surface explanation (things just *happened* that way!) > seem unsatisfactory. > > My own suspicion is that the simpler explanations are more > likely to be the actual ones. I'm not talking about conspiracies here, certainly not presenting conspiracies as fact. I'm actually kind of irritated with fans who must insist that a cigar is NEVER just a cigar. I'm talking about simple canon here, the adult wizards who guarded the Philosopher's Stone and decided what to do with Sirius Black and formed the Order of the Phoenix and kept the prophecy a secret. Dumbledore, who spent Book 6 telling Harry EXACTLY what was needed from him at that particular moment and got angry when he didn't do it as quickly as asked. Harry knew very little of this, even right up to the end, and a number of the books seemed to be him fighting against authority to get by knowing very little of what was actually going on. Hence, why Dumbledore had to explain it to him. Slowly, he's beginning to put the pieces together himself, but we have NEVER seen him completely do this. People have always just positioned him where they want him, for safety's reasons or otherwise, and expected him to obey. > Lady Indigo: > > the potential for redemption (Pettigrew can always deal with > > this topic, sure, but frankly I don't care about Pettigrew > > and I've found few other people who do either) Nora: > Peter became immensely more interesting to me post-HBP; he's > always been an open question, a wild card, and I think he's > going to play a very major role in the denoument. Nonetheless, she has spent 6 books worth of material on Snape and barely a few chapters worth on Peter. We know nothing about him beyond an insecure boy who turned his back on his friends for cowardice's sake and is now living a miserable life on the other side. Of course he can redeem himself, and so much the better for it, but it's not going to have the resonance of anything that could ever happen with Snape if only because it's going to take a *lot* of background material to flesh him out so much it's relevant. And doing all that so last-minute might very well be shoddy storytelling. Nora: > Hehe--is it Rowling's blindness to what she's put on the page, > or have readers cheerfully led themselves astray? The genius of > how Snape is written is more in what is implied, what is notably > *not* there than what is. > > Snape is interesting precisely because the reader is encouraged > to fill in so many of the blanks. But, as we saw this past book, > interesting things happen with fans when the way they filled the > blanks turned out to be one not in the text, and even > contradicted. > > If you *want* to read Snape as the thematic key to the story, > and read *those particular themes*, one solution will be > inadequate for you. But that all hinges on those being the themes > played out. For example, our ideas about an essentially noble and > honorable Snape could well be solidly 100% confirmed...or they > could be revealed as only projections on our part. But that's exactly it. Your complaint here is that it'll turn into Snape's story if there's some key to him, something we have yet to learn, and the focus is put on learning it - but this is a character where there is a LOT left to learn, and what we have learned is rather troubling and actually makes him sympathetic to a reader. We have a lot of snark and skulking and terrible things done to children's self-esteem. We also have a boy who was bullied so much as a child some readers call it sexual harassment, someone Harry is constantly and immaturely wrong about throughout the books (and at one point wishes dead!), someone with the potential to be redeemed. How am I putting unnecessary focus on those themes? I never once claimed they're the key, or what the story will end up being "about", but they're all there, and brought up time and time again. Importantly so. You can't have a final battle with Snape and not deal with the ambiguities of his character. You especially can't deal with the fact that Harry has never taken the higher road, never been charitable to him and rarely tried to understand him. I'm not saying Snape *has* to be dealt with the way that I want, so much as that Snape does need to be dealt with and there is something Harry does need to learn from him. Frankly, I think Harry's decision is going to have to break the cycle of anger and emotional abuse, a choice he's completely failed to make so far. The strength of Harry Potter, to me, is the diversion from formula. From book one the greasy, unpleasant little man with terrible social skills was NOT the evil one. It was someone lurking in the shadows, it was something you'd never expect. Harry's dead father was not a saint, and even when he made reparations and got his act together neither he nor Sirius ever acted maturely and tried to apologize to Snape. (It's implied that until they left Hogwarts they never even stopped.) Harry has cheated and snooped where he didn't belong and acted immaturely. And though good people can sometimes do very stupid, bad things, I do think they have to repent for them or at least seem genuinely sorry about them. Maintaining that realism also means you can't make it as simple as "You know that man who seemed bad all the time but the guy who knew everything always trusted him for a secret we never got to know about? ...Well, the secret was really lame, and the guy who knew everything was just an idiot, and the man who seemed really bad? Was really bad. And then we killed him, and that's the end." If this is the choice JKR makes in the end, I don't know how you couldn't call that bad writing. I'm not saying that Snape has to be pure and noble and sainted, in fact he's not. And even if he were following Dumbledore's orders, there are a million other ways in which he's far from those things. But this can't be all there is to him. There are questions there and they need answering. - Lady Indigo From saturniia at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 02:07:49 2005 From: saturniia at yahoo.com (saturniia) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:07:49 -0000 Subject: "Spinner's End," a canon-based interpretation (Wa: Snape did kill DD with AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138974 eggplant107 wrote: > 3) Snape had already made the same Unbreakable Vows to > Voldemort so making them again cost him absolutely > nothing. I'm sorry, but that statement knows absolutely no sense, given what we know about Voldemort. What we know beyond a doubt is that Voldemort cares for no one but himself. We know that Voldemort presumably does not understand love, and probably fears it. Therefore, why would Voldemort care enough to make an Unbreakable Vow with Voldemort that includes a clause for the Professor to protect Draco to the best of his ability? If anything, I'd think Voldemort would include a clause to protect the mission at all costs, not the boy. ~Saturniia From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 05:56:55 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:56:55 -0000 Subject: "Spinner's End," a canon-based interpretation (Wa: Snape did kill DD with AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138975 "saturniia" wrote: > why would Voldemort care enough to > make an Unbreakable Vow with Voldemort > that includes a clause for the > Professor to protect Draco to the best > of his ability? I have no idea, but it is conservable to me that Voldemort might have required Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow to aid Draco in every conceivable way and to accomplish the task himself if Draco is unable to, and he might have done it long before the events in chapter 2. Eggplant From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Aug 29 05:56:52 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 01:56:52 EDT Subject: Snape and Pettigrew's obligation to James and Harry respectively Message-ID: <110.50c79397.3043fda4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138976 JKR has specifically indicated that Peter Pettigrew owes Harry a special debt because Harry saved him. So I think it's clear that Pettigrew will at least have to try to do something for Harry..I wonder what...? Perhaps that special obligation is a clue to why Snape has acted the way he has. It's been suggested that because James saved Snape's life, that Snape owes James. Okay, so Lord Voldemort killed James before Snape was able to repay his obligation. Harry shows up looking almost exactly like James, and Snape is absolutely furious. He feels compelled to save Harry in the Philosopher's Stone because of his debt to James. He's stuck with protecting Harry, but hates the task and Harry in the same way he hates James. Susan McGee SusanGSMcGee at aol.com Want to join a low volume Harry Potter discussion group -- Harry Potter for Grownups over 40? Please email me or go directly to _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGUOver40/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGUOver40/) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From merylanna at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 02:17:26 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082814585c029da6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050829021726.38043.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138977 lady.indigo at gmail.com wrote: <> I think a lot of Snape's continuing problems have to do with Harry being an utter idiot towards and about him. The instant he discovered that his father was a lot of things that Snape had always claimed he was, Lupin's "well, we were very young then" nonsense or no, the *first thing* Harry should have done was gone to Snape and both apologized about poking into his very private things and said "What my father did was unforgiveable but I am not my father." It's a lot of his own failings and pride that has allowed this relationship to fester into something even worse than what he began it to be. (Though Snape has a huge part in this too, certainly, and I don't excuse his bitterness or cruelty towards all of his students in the least.)<<< Yes, I very much agree Harry has created a lot of the problem with Snape. This becomes clearer as the "real" enemies of good become more heinous in the later books, so that Snape's crimes (pre-Dumbledore AK) seem to pale in comparison to, say, the Umbridges, Bellatrix's and Crouch Jr.'s of the wizard world, yet Harry's hatred for Snape, starting in OoTP, almost increases in kind of inverse proportion to Snape's actual, um, badness. I think Harry's story has room room for many heroes - Dumbledore is one, Snape may be another, Lupin, Hermione, Lily, etc. I also think growing up well is a kind of heroism - Sirius really didn't. Harry is more mature in many ways than his dad seemed to be at fifteen. Overcoming his prejudice may be a kind of heroism for Harry; becoming a better person, not just a successful action hero. Meantime, JKR consistently shows us that in Harry, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Harry running off wrong ways with the right information is a leitmotif of the book - he had vicious thoughts of Sirius at one point - when they first meet - certain Sirius was about to act in a certain way. The Sirius misapprehension was resolved quickly while Snape's is prolonged, but it's kind of the same. Harry's been certain about things in the past - and dead wrong. He recovers from these things well, IMO. I don't know about Harry apologizing to Snape after the pensieve incident. He seemed to try to stammer out an apology after he was caught, and he was absolutely wrong to have poked his head in there, and afterwards he never told anyone how he learned certain things about Snape - he respected what Snape told him (never tell anyone). The pensieve stuff doesn't bother me as much as Harry's stubborn anger at critical Snape/Harry interactions. There are occlumency moments where Snape is nearly nice. When he tells Harry "that was certainly an improvement" after Harry repelled Snape's legilmans. At that time, Snape didn't seem upset Harry had seen some of Snape's memories - Harry assumed he'd be punished for having glimpsed them, but that's Harry. Snape WANTED Harry to get better at occlumency and Harry just had. He asks Harry if Harry had intended to use a certain jinx on him - Harry says no - Snape believes him. Snape answers a couple of Harry's questions - such as why Harry needs occlumency since Hogwarts is protected from external intrusions. These lessons could be civilized if Harry only respected them. Instead, Harry has an anger buzz on the entire time and can barely force out his "sirs". Another thing that rankles is the Umbridge factor. Umbridge is a piece of work, it's clear Snape feels nothing but distaste for Umbridge - perhaps that should clue Harry in? Umbridge's detentions are so horrific Snape's routine detentions and points deducting almost take on the character of a comforting, predictable consistency. They did for me, as a reader. I don't get why Harry is so full of fury at Snape throughout Order of the Phoenix when the Snape in Order of the Phoenix is less gratuitously evil toward Harry than he'd been in Books 1, 2 and 3. Is it loyalty to Sirius? Perhaps Sirius has led Harry astray. Hermione is dubious about his influence throughout the book. Even when Snape gives Harry no marks in the Umbridge-monitored potions class, Harry's fury is out of proportion. Harry had spent the entire class dumping the wrong ingredients into his cauldron because he was focusing on the Umbridge/Snape exchanges - remember Hermione begging him to pay attention? Harry ends up with glop, Snape gives him zero, and Harry is immediately full of incredible rage? I get how rage at Snape is necessary for Harry after Sirius is dead. I don't follow it totally in OoTP - why it's there. Finally, Harry pays close attention to Umbridge/Snape in Snape's potions class but doesn't seem to learn anything from it. I think Sirius had to die in order to fuel Harry's hatred of Snape and his reaction to the events in Book 6, which of course, sets up the big pay-offs in Book 7. I get that. I don't get where Harry's ungodly rage toward Snape is coming from during the early and mid going of OoTP. It's like Harry isn't paying attention to the Snape in front of him, but to the Snape in his mind. When did Harry become so DETERMINED to hate Snape so ferociously? It seems much more intense in OoTP than before, and very marked because the Snape in front of him is far more nuanced than Harry is perceiving. "merylanna" From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 06:06:50 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:06:50 -0000 Subject: Snape and Pettigrew's obligation to James and Harry respectively In-Reply-To: <110.50c79397.3043fda4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138978 Schlobin at a... wrote: > JKR has specifically indicated that > Peter Pettigrew owes Harry a special > debt because Harry saved him. Actually JKR didn't say that, Dumbledore did in book 3 and we now know Dumbledore can be disastrously wrong. Certainly Pettigrew's behavior in book 4 made me doubt Dumbledore's wisdom in this regard; but he still has a chance in book 7, perhaps he will kill Snape. Eggplant From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 05:26:35 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore Detractors Unsophisticated In-Reply-To: <1124756670.2145.26008.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050829052636.15204.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138979 Roger: > Lynda, > Sorry to see you had such a painful week. > > Om the topic of HBP, I find myself pondering the > possibility that Snape did not kill Dumbledore. that > Dumbledore will return in the perfect undercover role > as a dead wizard, and that he and Snape had worked out > a plan in the event that Snape was forced to publicly > "kill" the headmaster. > > I also think Snape may yet surface as some flavor of a > hero. Thanks for the kind words, Roger and sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I had quite a busy week as I moved, so I haven't had a lot of time to check email. On Snape emerging as some sort of hero, it's certainly a possibility. Hard to tell until it actually does or does not happen because of the way his character is written. This is going to be a long two years... Lynda From juli17 at aol.com Mon Aug 29 06:22:40 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:22:40 EDT Subject: Harry's story, NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") Message-ID: <205.8d2b02f.304403b0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138980 _lady.indigo_ (mailto:lady.indigo at g) wrote: > > Which is why I do think Snape is innocent (along with the other > reasons I listed), but even if he isn't there has to be more to his > story than what we know. And it's that revelation which will be > important, and which will turn the tide in the end. Maybe Snape's > true redemptive moment has yet to come? > Lupinlore wrote: And therein, I'm afraid, lies precisely the problem many people, including myself, see with the Good!Snape scenario. It in effect means the books cease being Harry's story and start being Snape's story. I don't think that's what JKR intends (and I think that accounts for most of her concern about Snape being so popular). Julie says: I think JKR's concern is more related to Snape's "romantic" popularity among female fans, similar to Draco's among young girls. There is an unfortunate "savior" complex in some women-- okay, maybe in many women--but some carry it too far. Think of the women who write letters to convicts, sometimes send them money, visit them, etc, each believing she is the one who can see the good man--the "real" man--inside the convict (indeed, sometimes inside the serial killer, as men like Ted Bundy had dozens of female admirers). It's that whole attraction to bad boys, and JKR said she went through such a situation herself. I don't think she's worried about fans who find Snape a fascinating character, or even think some good in him may lurk amongst the meanness, or who hope for his redemption. I think she's expressed concern for those who dismiss his many unpleasant traits, and think he is merely misunderstood (in which case he doesn't even need redemption). Lupinlore wrote: JKR has implied pretty strongly that she's following the standard patterns of coming of age/hero's journey literature. Whether that is a good idea or not is another question, but I think we can take her at her word. That means the story is about a Hero's growing up, and in the end facing his challenge alone with HIS OWN DECISIONS being the crucial component of the outcome. Yes, it's true that the actual resolution of the story might lie in the hands of a surprise character (Gollum, Vader), but it must be the independent choices of the hero that bring everything to the climax. It was Frodo's choices, including his choice to spare Gollum, that brought everything to a head at the Crack of Doom. It was Luke's choice to appeal and reach out to his father that redeemed Vader. The problem with Good!Snape, particularly the Dumbledore'sMan!Snape variety of that theory, is that it effect reduces Harry to a puppet. The really important choices, in these scenarios, are those that have been made by Dumbledore and Snape. Dumbledore, through his awesome and far-seeing plan, and Snape, through his wrenching sacrifices, have engineered Voldemort's doom by cementing a traitor at Voldemort's right hand, and Harry is simply the first domino that will set the process in motion at the final confrontation. Julie says: I don't see it that way. I don't believe Dumbledore had a set plan in place as much as he has been making a plan as he goes along, revising it here and there as circumstances arise. And that plan could only get Harry to the point where he is now--destined to face Voldemort soon (because Voldemort made that choice), and as prepared as Dumbledore's planning could make him. And Harry is hardly the first domino that sets in the process in motion to the final confrontation (that was Snape, who originally told Voldemort of the prophecy--which is the act for which he desperately needs so much redemption). Harry is the one who will direct the final confrontation and decide its conclusion-- which makes him much more than a mere domino in the process. Lupinlore: Consider, in order for Dumbledore'sMan!Snape to be true, Harry will have never REALLY been alone. He would have always been supported, even at the final moment, by Superspy!Snape. In order for this to be true, Harry's choices have never really been the crucial steps leading to the defeat of Voldemort, they are mearly variables in Dumbledore's grand plan. Furthermore, it means that the entire scene atop the tower was a play for Harry's benefit, reducing him to a credulous dupe led astray by his own prejudices. Julie says: I disagree again. You might as well say he'll never REALLY be alone because he has Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, Lupin, another half dozen or so Weasleys, Mad-Eye Moody, Hagrid, etc, etc, etc, and etc, on his side. I don't see that Snape will be any different, since I don't think Dumbledore'sMan!Snape means he must also be Superspy!Snape. Snape is one of those cogs, who will do something to assist Harry, as the others I mention and more will also perform small tasks to assist Harry. But in the end it will be Harry ALONE against Voldemort, which I think is JKR's real meaning. I also think we won't know until Book 7, when Harry finally comes into his own as hero, what choices he will make that will prove crucial to his defeat of Voldemort. And wouldn't it be ironic if one of those choices is to change his mind about Snape at a crucial moment? Ironic, and maybe as crucial to Harry's growing maturity as to his defeat of Voldemort, and perhaps also very good storytelling. It's as much about *how* JKR tells it as *what* she tells, that will make or break a good story, IMO. Oh, and I don't see any indication the Tower scene was played for Harry's benefit, good or bad Snape. Harry was there, and Dumbledore had to make a decision--another case of reacting as circumstances arise rather than adhering to a set plan (the latter of which seems an impossibility in the constantly in flux WW anyway.) Lupinlore writes: I have to confess that I agree with Eggplant in finding this outcome contrived, poorly written, and just plain silly. It would also be very, very boring -- Harry was wrong about Snape yet again, how terribly original of JKR. Julie says: Yet if it turns out to be ESE! or OFH!Snape, then Dumbledore made a major mistake YET again---ho hum, very, very boring, and how terribly unoriginal of JKR... Looks like she's going to lose either way if it's only a question of semantics. After all she's set the precedent for both to be quite often wrong--Harry about Snape due to his prejudices, and Dumbledore because he expects too much of people. Luckily I think JKR will write it well enough to avoid either of those results being contrived or silly. Lupinlore says: Now, just because it's Harry's story doesn't mean other characters can't change and make effective choices. In fact, one of my arguments with JKR to this point is that she has been so VERY wedded to the standard formula that she has missed a lot of interesting possibilities in this regard. But those choices can't be allowed to undercut the Hero's status, and Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would do exactly that. If JKR goes in that direction of undercutting the Hero's Journey formula, I would have been much more impressed had she kept Sirius alive to give Harry love and support -- that at least would have been a refreshing and pleasant change of pace. Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would just be forced and preachy. Julie says: Again I don't think it has to be that way. Dumbledore'sMan!Snape can still be Deeplyflawedyetdesperatelyseekingredemption!Snape as much as he can be Superhero!Snape. It's all in the writing. Eggplant also wrote: Thank you lupinlore, I was beginning to think that I was the only on planet Earth who thought that because Snape butchered Dumbledore there is at least the slight theoretical possibility that perhaps Snape might not be an absolutely perfect human being. Julie says: Eggplant, if you could resist the temptation to melodramatically misrepresent the arguments of other posters, then it might allow said posters (such as myself) to enjoy a debate with you rather than sighing sadly when you once again go off on those who don't agree with you. Julie (who is the Queen of England, the Queen of Sheba, and Freddie Mercury if Snape is anything *remotely* related to an Absolutely Perfect Human Being.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From merylanna at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 04:14:07 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050829041407.67572.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138981 Lady Indigo wrote: > If the answer to his mystery is just that he looked evil, > acted evil, fell into evil, remained evil, was evil - that's > what will disappoint me, if that's Book 7's only approach. > Rowling's puzzlement over Snape's popularity worries me > because it implies that she doesn't really understand the > resonance what she herself has written. :) I agree that would just stink, but I keep faith alive. I recently re-read Books I and 2. I have liked Snape - sort of - since after Book 2, but when I re-read both of them, he's really a nasty piece of work in the first two. It is only with PoA that some ambiguity starts to creep in. I think perhaps Snape can indulge his nasty, spiteful, Harry-hating side in the early books because Lord Voldemort has not yet returned. When he returns in Goblet of Fire, Snape has to get serious. He can no longer afford to indulge his apparent attempts to expel Harry every five seconds, while running around insuring Harry & Co. (and every student) stays alive. He's got bigger stuff on his mind, and I think his personality reflects that in the later books. In many books, much of drama, the audience is often ten steps ahead of the writer. Perhaps not in terms of plot, but theme. So many writers say this is a huge challenge - keeping the audience on their toes. In JKR's case, I think she is trying to discourage readers from jumping ahead and "spoiling" Book 7. But I think she absolutely has to understand why Snape resonates. She's just not going to address it because that's central to the mystique of the book, to be found IN the book - Book 7 - not an interview. Even if she acknowledges a mystique she's going to spoil it. Harry feels no mystique. Harry sees what he sees in Snape, the books are his story, and I think to the best of her ability JKR tries not to get ahead of Harry. I think the member of the Order we have not yet met "properly", her real favorite, the one she has not killed off, is Snape. He has been everywhere but we have not met him. All of his "good" deeds take place out of sight. They are reported, not witnessed by Harry. And when they ARE witnessed, JKR shows them in kind of an uninflected way, so they might not stay with us. She doesn't imbue them with the emotional pyrotechnics other, more immediately resolved elements get from her. An example is during the time turner sequences when Harry sees Snape summon the stretchers for Sirius and the trio. Snape doesn't know time turner Harry is watching him - this is Snape on his own, and what's he doing? Helping. This is described as one of a sequence of events Harry is observing to kind of mark what time it is, but it is not emphasized as an important redemptive moment for Snape, because HARRY fails to register it as such. He has other stuff on his mind. Every time something "redemptive" (in Harry's mind) about Snape presents itself to Harry (in the later books) something else distracts him, commands his attention, and he fails to internalize what happened. And because he doesn't, we don't either. Or we wonder - well, if it's so important, why isn't it played up? Why doesn't it stick? Lastly, I feel she's - very consciously, purposefully - altered her discussion of Snape as the books get deeper. He's gone from a "deeply horrible person" to somebody who "isn't always the nicest person." Sirius has gone from a sexy hero to somebody whose flaws JKR discusses with quite a lot of insight, including his failure to see the chance of "latent good" in Snape. I think there's a case to be made that JKR, whenever possible, tries to interview from the standpoint of where both Harry and the audience are in the immediate moment. There's a little bit of a split between Harry and the audience sometimes (the audience may be more aware of the "latent good" in Snape than is Harry), but for the most part, she tries not to get ahead of her protagonist. I think this is really smart and she does a very clever job, while not being misleading. "merylanna" From auburnvixen at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 00:40:20 2005 From: auburnvixen at hotmail.com (ponygirl_auburn_vixen) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:40:20 -0000 Subject: If they wrote Book 7 was Re: the Grande Finale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138982 Amber wrote: > After Eggplant's marvelous Dirty Harry post, I just had to > jump in. > > If Book 7 were written by: (with apologies therin) auburn: Oh, these are FUN...let's keep it going. What if it were written by... ...Danielle Steel (who writes the same book over and over and over)? ...John Grisham or Scott Turow? ...Stephen King? ...The Farrelly Brothers (There's Something About Mary)? Eggplant, the Dirty Harry thing was sublime. From juli17 at aol.com Mon Aug 29 06:33:27 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:33:27 EDT Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) Message-ID: <1c1.2f75b4b6.30440637@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138983 Betsy Hp: Snape doesn't neccessarily have to have been in romantic love with Lily for my theory to work. He was canonically fairly lonely (sitting alone under a bush in OotP) so any friend would be important to him. I think he and Lily became secret friends (through a mutual interest in potions) in their first year and she gave him his nickname. I think he visited Lily at her home and he's the "horrible boy" who spoke of the dementors guarding Azkaban that Petunia referred to in OotP. Around fifth year something happened. Perhaps Snape was being actively recruited by Voldemort. Perhaps, when his invented spell became known by his classmates he suspected Lily of betraying him. Either way, when he was jumped by James and Sirius he and Lily were arguing. She still came to his rescue but he attacked her, calling her the worst name he could think of. Their friendship was officially broken. So Snape becomes a Death Eater. Possibly he started having problems towards the beginning. (Like Regulus Black.) Maybe he was blissfully ignorant and quite happy. Either way, he overhears the prophecy while on a Death Eater mission and runs back to share what he heard with Voldemort. Then, to his horror, his information is used to fuel Voldemort's intense interest in seeing the entire Potter family (including his old friend, Lily) slaughtered. Snape runs to Dumbledore and tells him everything. Dumbledore believes him and puts the Potters into hiding. (Or maybe into better hiding -- since Dumbledore knew the prophecy already.) But, thanks to James's misplaced trust in his friends (Snape's POV), the Potters are betrayed and Lily is killed. Snape is heartbroken and swears vengence (or whatever) and Dumbledore realizes that he can fully trust Severus Snape. Not much canon to back this theory, I'll admit. But it makes a certain amount of sense to me, and boy would it drive Harry round the bend. Of course, I myself like the idea of Snape in love because otherwise what a waste of the sexy. Betsy Hp (who wonders if she could have possibly made this post longer) Julie says: I like this theory! It makes a certain amount of sense to me also. I've had problems with the whole Deeplyinlove!Snape concept, especially in relation to Lily. But if it was more friendship, or even a bit of a secret crush (Snape was 15 after all), that went wrong thanks to those darned Marauders--whether during the Pensieve incident or later when Lily started dating James--I can see Snape hating them, and especially James, while letting Lily--the one person who accepted him as he was-- off the hook. Which all leads to Snape's immense regret after he finds out Voldemort is targeting the Potters and is unable to save them (Lily). It also makes me wonder if part of Snape's hatred of James is also because James got Lily killed (in Snape's mind) because he didn't believe Snape's warning. Thanks, Betsy! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 29 06:39:27 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:39:27 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: phoenixgod2000: > Sorry, the cheesiest line in the book is when Harry actually uses the > word Hark in a sentence and he isn't singing a christmas song. > > I could not get over that one. Valky: > Where did he say that? I'm curious, I don't remember it. > I dunno about cheesy there either, I think hark is still in common use > in Britain, among the blue collar mob. Ever seen EastEnders? Geoff:I'm also interested to know where he said that - to save me trawling through the bok looking for it. Harry was speaking in 1996/7 but I would still disagree that "Hark" is in common use in the UK. Don't believe that the soaps give an accurate guide to British life in the real world. :-) From lady.indigo at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 06:39:49 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:39:49 -0400 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63378ee7050828233917dde37f@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138985 > > lady.indigo: > > I think a lot of Snape's continuing problems have to > > do with Harry being an utter idiot towards and about him. > > The instant he discovered that his father was a lot of > > things that Snape had always claimed he was, Lupin's "well, > > we were very young then" nonsense or no, the *first thing* > > Harry should have done was gone to Snape and both apologized > > about poking into his very private things and said "What my > > father did was unforgiveable but I am not my father." msbeadsley wrote: > I think a lot of *Harry's* continuing problems have to do with > not seeing beyond the hatred Snape has so efficiently engendered > in him. And I can just imagine the scene if Harry had done as you > propound. I believe Harry was actually prepared to say something > at least vaguely conciliatory to Snape when Snape became outright > violent. (This is an old argument; I was here for it after OoP > came out. I am on the side that says Snape's behavior towards > Harry was and always had been unconscionable and that Harry's > response had been, erm, to be expected. Otherwise known as > deserved. See my previous paragraph +1.) I have to admit I haven't read OotP for a while now and have come up short on the details thusly. But yes, bad for Harry and bad for Snape both, because Snape is fostering a hate in Harry that Harry doesn't seem to realize he needs to overcome (and this is what I mean about the cycle that needs to be broken). But while Snape believes exactly what he wants to believe of Harry, and yes, Harry's response to this is generally to be expected, I still think he has to rather grow up and learn a thing or two about people to at least *try* and communicate with the man. If it were up to me I simply would not let Snape think badly of me once I realized where he was coming from - and while it's from a very angry, bitter place it's also easy to see a great deal of what drives him. I'd have persisted in getting a very humble, respectful moment alone with him, written a letter, asked for advice from Dumbledore, anything. That's coming from someone with a therapist from a mother who very much thinks about the psychology of things, but I simply can't have someone thinking that badly of me now that I understand why he's so upset. I'd at the very least think it's my obligation to make reparations where my father didn't, and I'd certainly not be wishing death on the guy and mouthing off to him much in the manner of my hated dad by the next year. It's my own damn fault I was poking around in his magical diary, after all. - Lady Indigo From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 08:09:02 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:09:02 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138986 > Valky: > > Where did he say that? I'm curious, I don't remember it. > > I dunno about cheesy there either, I think hark is still in common use > > in Britain, among the blue collar mob. Ever seen EastEnders? > > Geoff:I'm also interested to know where he said that - to save me > trawling through the bok looking for it. > > Harry was speaking in 1996/7 but I would still disagree that "Hark" is > in common use in the UK. Don't believe that the soaps give an accurate > guide to British life in the real world. :-) I found it! "Hark who's talking," he whispered back. "Confunded anyone lately?" bottom of pg 293 US version HBP he was talking to Hermione about using the Felix potion on Ron which was later proven to be a trick. I'm surprised that the line didn't stick out for more people. It struck me as one of several truly bizzare turns of phrase in the book. phoenixgod2000 From samwisep at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 08:38:38 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:38:38 -0000 Subject: Dolores Umbridge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138987 HI everyone! Now that it is obvious nothing is going to be done about all the cruel and malicious things Umbridge did while at Hogwarts, what would you like to see happen to her now? What would be justice? Snapeo'phile From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 29 09:11:56 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:11:56 -0400 Subject: Number of Students in Harry's year (was Re: The Eggplant and Snape and I) Message-ID: <007001c5ac79$b51acd20$52c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138988 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > There are 40 students, according > to JKR, in Harry's year. Eggplant: >>Yes but she also said there were about 1000 students at Hogwarts and 7 times 40 is not equal to 1000. JKR has admitted she's not very good at math so I think a statistical analysis is unlikely to lead to new insights into the books. CathyD: She's also corrected that in an interview which I am not even going to try to find. But here is her quote about the 40 kids in Harry's year: "Way before I finished "Philosopher's Stone," when I was just amassing stuff for seven years, between having the idea and publishing the book, I sat down and I created 40 kids who enter Harry's year. I'm delighted I did it, [because] it was so useful. I got 40 pretty fleshed out characters. I never have to stop and invent someone. I know who's in the year, I know who's in which house, I know what their parentage is, and I have a few personal details on all of them. So there were 40. I never consciously thought, "That's it, that' s all the people in his year," but that's kind of how it's worked out. " JKR from the July 16, 2005 interview. She's not trying to figure out a math problem here. She states she has created 40 students for Harry's year. Can't argue that. Well, you could, but I wouldn't try it myself. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 29 10:08:11 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:08:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4312DE8B.60806@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 138989 phoenixgod2000 wrote: > > I found it! > > "Hark who's talking," he whispered back. "Confunded anyone lately?" > > I'm surprised that the line didn't stick out for more people. It > struck me as one of several truly bizzare turns of phrase in the book. > > phoenixgod2000 > 'Hark who's talking' is a commonplace phrase in British English. Using the work 'Hark!' on its own, or as an exclamation, is pretty much obsolote though. digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 26/08/2005 From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 10:43:43 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:43:43 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: <4312DE8B.60806@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > phoenixgod2000 wrote: > > > > > I found it! > > > > "Hark who's talking," he whispered back. "Confunded anyone lately?" > > > > > I'm surprised that the line didn't stick out for more people. It > > struck me as one of several truly bizzare turns of phrase in the > > book. > > phoenixgod2000 > > > > 'Hark who's talking' is a commonplace phrase in British English. > Using the work 'Hark!' on its own, or as an exclamation, is pretty > much obsolote though. > > digger > > Valky: Ahh yeah thats the common use that I was talking about. I was actually kind of expecting a phrase like "'ark at you, then.", my cockney grandmother often uses tht one, but yeah 'Hark who's talking' is the same thing as 'look who's talking', with the word hark thrown in to really rub in the sarcasm nice and dry. You'd definitely hear it in EastEnders and probably still hear it in the East end, at least. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 29 10:55:17 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:55:17 -0400 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's Message-ID: <007f01c5ac88$24b29420$52c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138991 Lupinlore And therein, I'm afraid, lies precisely the problem many people, including myself, see with the Good!Snape scenario. It in effect means the books cease being Harry's story and start being Snape's story. I don't think that's what JKR intends (and I think that accounts for most of her concern about Snape being so popular). CathyD: I don't see this at all. I've said before that IMO Snape has already been redeemed. He is an evil man, I have no doubt that he could be as evil as Voldemort, but back when he found out how LV had interpreted the prophecy, he made the choice to switch sides and went to Dumbledore in an effort to protect the Potters. Did Snape switch sides because of his debt to James, or because of a friendship/love of Lily? We don't know yet, but he did switch sides, IMO. The problem comes in because Dumbledore didn't tell anyone else why he trusted Snape so implicitly. A mistake on his part I am sure. Now no one trusts Snape but he is still working for the Order doing the task Dumbledore set him to do when he sent him back to spy on the DEs/LV in the first war and again at the end of GoF. All that remains is for the Order - and Harry - to find out the truth of the situation. How they find out will be in JKR's quite capable hands. I also don't think Snape is going to last far into book 7. In all honesty I will be very surprised if he makes it past the half-way mark. There will be, IMO, some small act of heroism and then he will die. He won't be the hero and it won't be Snape's story. He will do some small heroic task - like Ron sacrificing himself in the chess game - and then he will be gone. And maybe that alone will be the thing that makes Harry see Snape for who he truly is. I think what concerns JKR is not Snape's popularity as a talking point, but more that she sees women/girls like him and Draco as bad boys and think they can reform them. Others have said this before me. JKR, in one intervew said "I hesitate to say that I love him." But she does love writing him. I love reading and trying to figure Snape out, but I wouldn't want to be married to him, or even have him as a member of the family. He is a treasure as a character. >>The problem with Good!Snape, particularly the Dumbledore'sMan!Snape variety of that theory, is that it effect reduces Harry to a puppet. The really important choices, in these scenarios, are those that have been made by Dumbledore and Snape. Dumbledore, through his awesome and far-seeing plan, and Snape, through his wrenching sacrifices, have engineered Voldemort's doom by cementing a traitor at Voldemort's right hand, and Harry is simply the first domino that will set the process in motion at the final confrontation. Oh, I see Snape as the first domino. He set the whole mess in motion when he passed the Prophecy to Voldemort. He and Dumbledore have been trying to stop, detour and clean up the mess ever since. And Harry has been a bit of a puppet anyway, hasn't he - as someone else more cleverly wrote than I ever could...but I forgot to snip their quote. >>Consider, in order for Dumbledore'sMan!Snape to be true, Harry will have never REALLY been alone. He would have always been supported, even at the final moment, by Superspy!Snape. In order for this to be true, Harry's choices have never really been the crucial steps leading to the defeat of Voldemort, they are mearly variables in Dumbledore's grand plan. Furthermore, it means that the entire scene atop the tower was a play for Harry's benefit, reducing him to a credulous dupe led astray by his own prejudices. Harry has been alone on several occasions, right at the end. I think he will be again at the end of book 7 - or whenever the final battle comes in that book. As I said above, I don't think Snape's going to be around for "the final moment." He'll be long since passed on to the realm of wherever Sirius and Luna's mother are. I'll be terribly surprised if he *is* still around, let's put it that way. Harry still has all his friends, all the Order members...so at this point even he is not alone, anyway. And Harry's prejudices have led him astray on more than one occasion through six books. At least that's how I read them. I don't think the scene atop the tower was intended for Harry's viewing at all. Unfortunately the chain of events that got them there kind of dropped him in it. I could almost hear Dumbledore sigh when Snape walked through the door "Oh dear. Dear, dear, dear. This will add more fuel to Harry's already vastly burning fire of hate towards Snape and he's going to need Severus's help before the end." There was no intent, as I read it, for Harry to be there. Dumbledore was sending Harry to find Snape and bring him to Dumbledore. (I'm not sure how Dumbledore expected this to happen really, with the history between the two.) Then there was noise on the stairs and something must immediately be done. It was, after all, Flitwick who roused Snape to the fact that there were Death Eaters in the castle, not Dumbledore. I'm quite sure that given the opportunity Dumbledore would have wanted Harry to be anywhere other than standing, frozen, invisible on that Tower to watch the final showdown. >>I have to confess that I agree with Eggplant in finding this outcome contrived, poorly written, and just plain silly. It would also be very, very boring -- Harry was wrong about Snape yet again, how terribly original of JKR. I, on the other hand, think an evil Snape, fooling Dumbledore for sixteen years, on Voldemort's side as Harry and Ron suspected all along, would be the more boring plot. It makes Dumbledore a fool - not just a man who makes mistakes - but an utter fool, IMO. Evil-Turned-Good!Snape is more interesting as a character. It is our choices that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilites. Harry isn't *wrong about Snape again*...he's wrong about Snape. Once...continually...constantly...unceasingly and for no apparent reason in some cases. He knows Snape did everything he possibly could to keep Sirius safe, in OotP, but Harry hates Snape anyway. I can't tell you the amount of time I puzzled over Harry's pronouncement of "whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape .. never..." Why? Prejudice. >>Now, just because it's Harry's story doesn't mean other characters can't change and make effective choices. In fact, one of my arguments with JKR to this point is that she has been so VERY wedded to the standard formula that she has missed a lot of interesting possibilities in this regard. But those choices can't be allowed to undercut the Hero's status, and Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would do exactly that. If JKR goes in that direction of undercutting the Hero's Journey formula, I would have been much more impressed had she kept Sirius alive to give Harry love and support -- that at least would have been a refreshing and pleasant change of pace. Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would just be forced and preachy. I don't think it does. Harry will be the Hero. At the end it will be Harry and Voldemort alone, I expect. Dumbledore'sMan!Snape (don't like that term, I don't) will already be gone and forgotten. Well, probably not forgotten, but he won't be there holding Harry's wand hand. Sirius would jump into the fray, not stand by and let Harry fight the battle for himself. He couldn't stay behind in Grimmauld Place how in the world would Harry get to go on alone with Sirius still alive? It's why they all had to die. Harry saw it. His parents couldn't protect him, not Sirius, not Dumbldore - I hasten to add, not Snape - he has to do it alone. The are, or all will be, gone by the time it comes right down to it. Nora >>If you go and actually think about what we know for dead sure about Snape, peeks into his character, it's remarkably thin. Funny you should say that. After my second read of HBP my opinion of Snape was so completely different to what it had been for the previous 4 or so years, I did a complete re-read of the whole series to see if my view held water (I think it does, YMMV). I was amazed at how little there really is of Snape in any of the books. Apart from sniping at Harry & Co. from time to time, we get very little real insight into the man. We've all formed an opinion on what is just a little shadow in the background, comparatively speaking. For the amount he has been talked about on this list (and others, too, I imagine) you'd think he had pride of place...someone we knew as well as Harry, Ron or Hermione. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 29 11:18:53 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:18:53 -0400 Subject: Snape and Pettigrew's obligation to James and Harry respectively Message-ID: <009801c5ac8b$711d62b0$52c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 138992 Schlobin at a... wrote: > JKR has specifically indicated that > Peter Pettigrew owes Harry a special > debt because Harry saved him. Eggplant >>Actually JKR didn't say that, Dumbledore did in book 3 and we now know Dumbledore can be disastrously wrong. Certainly Pettigrew's behavior in book 4 made me doubt Dumbledore's wisdom in this regard; but he still has a chance in book 7, perhaps he will kill Snape. CathyD: JKR may not have actually said that Pettigrew owes Harry a special debt (apart from Dumbledore's statement in POA "Pettigrew owes his life to you. ... When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them......But trust me ... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life."), but she certainly doesn't deny it either, as can be seen in several interview quotes: MA: Does she [Ginny] have a life debt to Harry from book two? JKR: No, not really. Wormtail is different. (Wormtail was not being discussed in this situation it was Ginny Weasley, and if, possibly, Ginny could be a Horcrux. JKR said that the Diary Horcrux is definitely destroyed and that Ginny is in no way possessed by Voldemort nor is she a Parselmouth. She is then asked the above question and responds as she does that Ginny doesn't have a life debt but "Wormtail is different." That clearly indicates, to me, that Wormtail does have a life debt to Harry.) Catheldral school: Will wormtail ever pay Harry back? JK Rowling replies -> You'll see... keep reading! (JKR never said that Wormtail doesn't have anything to pay back, but that we would see if he does pay Harry back if we just keep reading.) MauraEllen: Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over to Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body? JK Rowling replies -> No. Can't say any more than that! (Again, she's saying the debt did not carry over to Voldemort. She is not saying that there was no debt to carry over.) JKR also says that she uses Dumbledore and Hermione to give information to the reader. Coinvincing information that can't be passed by anyone else. Dumbledore, because "well Dumbledore knows pretty much everything anyway" and Hermione because she's "read it somewhere." I somehow doubt that Wormtail will kill Snape. At the moment, as far as Wormtail knows, he and Snape are on the same side as Death Eaters. If Wormtail does know the truth, that Snape is spying for Dumbledore not LV, it would hardly be repayment of a debt to Harry to kill a member of the Order of the Phoenix. Especially one who is so well placed at the moment - deep inside LV's camp - to help both Harry, and the Order, in their defeat of Voldemort and his Death Eaters. JMO of course. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 11:35:32 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:35:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee7050828233917dde37f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138993 lady.indigo: > If it were up to me I simply would not let Snape think badly of > me once I realized where he was coming from I strongly suspect that Harry's only option along that line would be to arrange to have Snape lobotomized. Amiable Dorsai From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 12:53:45 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:53:45 -0000 Subject: an old man's mistakes/Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138994 "Cindy L" : > > I think Dumbledore trusted Snape because Dumbledore is human, not > some divine being, and as a human he is not infallible. I think > people have gotten the impression from the books that he is perfect. > I think JKR is showing us that he is not; that he is too trusting, > and that his mistakes tend to "be huger" (I think that is the way > Dumbledore describes it - I don't have the book at the moment). Finwitch: I agree - you ever heard it said that "to err is human, to forgive is divine"? Dumbledore has always had such a huge portion of both in him, I'd say. And about Snape - well, I must say that it's very wondrous how Rowling can have Snape kill Dumbledore *without* removing that ambiguousness that always was there about Snape. Because, well, he *was* bound by that Unbreakable Vow - and I think he could not have broken off it any more than Kreacher could disobey Harry's 'shut up' - or 'spy Draco Malfoy'. Unbreakable Vow - and I wouldn't put it past Voldemort to have Snape take UV to obey... Nevertheless, if you were bound by UV to do conflicting things - lie and speak the truth, say - you'd die in a horrible way, end up becoming two or something... I think it's even possible that if the oath is not filled during life, the wiz. becomes a ghost in order to complete it - or why do you think marital vows say: "until death shall us part?" No, it's in taking the oath where Severus made his choice, not in fulfilling it. Finwitch From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 13:05:09 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:05:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee7050828185090d4977@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Nonetheless, she has spent 6 books worth of material on Snape and > barely a few chapters worth on Peter. We know nothing about him > beyond an insecure boy who turned his back on his friends for > cowardice's sake and is now living a miserable life on the other > side. Of course he can redeem himself, and so much the better for > it, but it's not going to have the resonance of anything that > could ever happen with Snape if only because it's going to take a > *lot* of background material to flesh him out so much it's > relevant. And doing all that so last-minute might very well be > shoddy storytelling. 'Six books' is a little misleading; Snape has figured into six books, but when you go back and look at how much actual page time he has, he does far less than one might think (especially given his habitually inflated role in fanfiction). We certainly never get much insight or illumination into his actions. That's not to deny that he's been more central than Peter, but Peter has always been there, in the background--perhaps even more pivotal in events than Snape has been. It's been a huge question since book 3, why did Peter do it? And being as this connects immediately to James and Lily's deaths, I think there's a lot of resonance there. > But that's exactly it. Your complaint here is that it'll turn into > Snape's story if there's some key to him, something we have yet to > learn, and the focus is put on learning it - but this is a > character where there is a LOT left to learn, and what we have > learned is rather troubling and actually makes him sympathetic to a > reader. That wasn't quite my complaint, actually; I just hooked onto the thread. :) But then again, maybe I'm an odd one and actually found Snape *far* more sympathetic before OotP. Why? Because then, under the open situation we had, not knowing which way the war would go, I had hopes for Snape acting like a mature and helpful adult. I actually lost some sympathy for Snape after the Pensieve scene when he throws Harry out--it's all about Snape and his humiliation there, and he can't or won't calm down enough (later, either) to wonder what Harry *actually* thought about the situation. I suspect a little more of the other shoe is going to drop, as HBP did some of that with Snape's invention of the curses. > How am I putting unnecessary focus on those themes? I never once > claimed they're the key, or what the story will end up being > "about", but they're all there, and brought up time and time again. > Importantly so. You can't have a final battle with Snape and not > deal with the ambiguities of his character. Those themes are there if you want to read them as consistently there. However, HBP did us all the favor of problematizing everything we know about Snape, without resolving solidly any of the major issues (schooldays, so-called Prank, role in the DEs, defection), which means those things may not be actual. > Maintaining that realism also means you can't make it as simple > as "You know that man who seemed bad all the time but the guy who > knew everything always trusted him for a secret we never got to > know about? ...Well, the secret was really lame, and the guy who > knew everything was just an idiot, and the man who seemed really > bad? Was really bad. And then we killed him, and that's the end." > If this is the choice JKR makes in the end, I don't know how you > couldn't call that bad writing. [Is that the realism that gives us an emotionally sound Harry after 10-something years of neglect at the hands of his relatives? Or should we say plausibility...ack, not a great word either. Welcome to the realm of fiction...] It's all in motivations, methinks. The guy who knew everything could be not an idiot, but cruelly deceived by someone he thought was genuine. It could be exceedingly BANG-y whereby Harry has been wrong about Snape in the past, but for once is actually right. If you increasingly think (as I do) that JKR has a concept of Character, the red flags have been going off for books. I also think the complexity of the books well can be overrated. Note all the wacky theories for plot that people have come up with, almost none of which have turned out; it's not too much of a stretch to note that very complex theme-readings, and not only the plot-readings, might turn out to be pushed aside. Even for my formulation of Out For Himself Snape, he's explainable with a surprisingly small amount of information. As I see it, the key to the character is that his complexity has been pinned on a combination of observed actions and omitted implications--and I don't know what the ultimate balance is. Harry is a far more complex character, in the long run. -Nora prepares to finish moving, alas From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 13:22:19 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:22:19 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Occlumency (was Re: Snape, Harry, and DADA) In-Reply-To: <200508281553.j7SFr8GL014355@ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138996 : > amiabledorsai wrote: > > > > It would be interesting to see them duel again if Harry ever > > takes Snape's advice and learns to Occlude his mind properly. Finwitch: I'd like to see Neville beat Snape in combat. Not because of Occlumency but because of his being so *accident* prone he does things he doesn't mean to do... Besides, I quite sided with Sirius - particularly when he had not been yet told *why* Harry should learn Occlumency (which turned out to be a fiasco anyway) - honest, why should he permit his godson to be taught how to lie by someone who happens to a) bear a Dark Mark, never mind his current loyalites which no one can know for sure anyway and b)quite apparently hates the boy just because he looks like his father? Just because this SS tells him that the headmaster wants it so? Finwitch From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Mon Aug 29 11:20:56 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:20:56 +0200 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... Message-ID: <4312EF98.2070809@me.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 138997 Hi! ... is the Latin language, as well as English. Just think about it, the entire Magic community, has not had more teachings in the English language than a 11 year old schoolkid. If they at least learned latin, then Harry wouldn't have to wonder what a spell like "levicorpus" does, and it could also be easier to invent new ones. /Fabian From mjf152 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 29 10:19:22 2005 From: mjf152 at yahoo.co.uk (Maureen) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:19:22 +0100 Subject: If they wrote Book 7 - Stephen King was Re: the Grande Finale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4312E12A.8020405@yahoo.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 138998 > > > auburn: > > Oh, these are FUN...let's keep it going. > > What if it were written by... > > ...Stephen King? They'll probably find out the the last horcrux is in a body lying on a train track, and go on a cross country trip to find it, running into a nasty bunch of Death Eaters on the way. Then, they get chased into a series of labyrinth beneath Hogwarts with the DE's still on their back. LV will try and stop them reaching his lair, by having several Boggarts appearing to them as their worst fears. Our heroes will get passed the boggarts, but the DE's won't. Two will die, one will flee. When they find him, they'll battle with him, and think they've killed him. When they get out from under the castle, they'll swear a vow to return if LV isn't actually dead. 27 years later, the Dark Lord begins another rise to power! Neville, who has remained at Hogwarts as librarian contacts the others and reminds them of their vow. Can they return and defeat LV one final time...... Maureen, who's just finished reading IT. Can you tell? :D From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 29 13:47:15 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:47:15 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 138999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > Magda Grantwich: > > > "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way," he added, > > > "so much the better for me, so much the worse for him." > > > > But it doesn't include the power to rise above cheesy > > dialogue. I cringed when I read this sentence and thought, > > yeah right. > > Derek: > I dunno... it actually sounds exactly like sixteen-year-old > bravado to me. :-) Pippin: Bravo, Derek! The words sound cheesy because the boast is empty and Harry knows it. He has about as much chance of defeating Snape in a fair fight as I do of playing Quidditch for England. As Snape told him, he'd have to learn occlumency, and Jo has already said that Harry can't learn it -- he's too damaged. Harry could fight unfairly, and that would, according to Dumbledore, fatally compromise his ability to defeat Voldemort. I realize some people think Dumbledore was wrong and that's exactly what Harry needs to do -- they like the idea of morally compromised warriors duking it out in the shadows so that sheltered folks can go on believing in innocence. But I don't think that works in JKR's world, and I think when we meet the *real* traitor to the order, we're going to see what happened to the character who tried to go that route. Pippin From RoxyElliot at aol.com Mon Aug 29 13:49:25 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:49:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where did Ron get the Galleons? Message-ID: <9a.2c7687c5.30446c65@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139000 In a message dated 8/28/2005 7:35:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, auburnvixen at hotmail.com writes: I noticed that the Weasleys were able to spend more money in Diagon Alley this time around (Ron buying several items at his brothers' shop and Ginny buying the Pygmy Puffskein, for example) and assumed it was due to Arthur's promotion to a more prestigious and responsible position. Auburn They also have less children needing supplies. Fred and George's moving out had to make a huge difference in the financial situation. Arthur and Molly are practically empty nesters now. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RoxyElliot at aol.com Mon Aug 29 13:53:29 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:53:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dolores Umbridge Message-ID: <1ab.3e38876a.30446d59@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139001 In a message dated 8/29/2005 4:39:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, samwisep at yahoo.com writes: HI everyone! Now that it is obvious nothing is going to be done about all the cruel and malicious things Umbridge did while at Hogwarts, what would you like to see happen to her now? What would be justice? Snapeo'phile I think her encounter with the Centaurs was probable justice enough. I really wish that we didn't have to see her again, but Rowling has indicated that we will. One of the few things that really bugs me about Book 6 is that she wasn't fired from the ministry. What I'd like to see is for her and Percy to both have to choose between what is easy and what is right, with Umbridge going with the easy and Percy finally choosing what is right. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 29 13:55:19 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:55:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's story, not Snape's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139002 There is an old story that Shakespeare was obliged to kill of Mercutio half-way through Romeo and Juliet, because his character was becoming more interesting than that of the hero, Romeo. I think something like this is happening with Snape and Harry. So it looks as though it might be an early bath for Snape. Sylvia From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Mon Aug 29 11:24:50 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:24:50 +0200 Subject: If they wrote Book 7 was Re: the Grande Finale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4312F082.9060505@me.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 139003 >sunnylove: > > >Snape (hissing) "You'd use my curses, too! My curses, the Half Blood >Prince's! No, you won't get them! (clutches invisible book) My preciousss >curssess...." > > I think Wormtail is the Gollum of this book. Snape is more like Darth Vader, helping in the killing of the evil Emperor/Voldemort. /Fabian From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 14:42:27 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:42:27 -0000 Subject: The graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jo Marelvy Samudio": If there is indeed a graveyard > there, who's buried there? The three founders that most ususally > agreed > (Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff and Gryfffindor)? Will Dumbledore's grave be > there? > Is there any chance that any of the still-missing Horcruxes be there? > Will Harry have to go back to Hogwarts to pay a visit to such > graveyard? > Will Harry be able to contact Dumbledore there somehow? > What do you make of this? Finwitch: That's a lot of questions, but I'd say that the three or even all four founders - and quite possibly, the house-elves of Hogwarts. Or maybe the proper name is school-elves, but oh well. Something of each founder (plus the Diary and the locket?). Now, Voldemort could *never* have had his hands on the Sword of Gryffindor since it apparently was in the hat until Harry drew it. And I doubt he'd grant much worth to the Hat, either. But Grave of Gryffindor? That would do... Then -- Ring of Slytherin (done with) Cup of Hufflepuff (we saw it in the memory) Wand of Ravenclaw? Or whatever - I just hope it's not some another book! ButI'll be wanting to see that Dumbledore-portrait to start talking! He said *nothing* at all in that office... I wonder if Minerva McGonagall is going to question him - if she really wants to know what Harry&Dumbledore were doing, that is? Will that 'honourbound to give assistance' come to play now that Dumbledore is a portrait? Finwitch From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 15:12:29 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:12:29 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Occlumency (was Re: Snape, Harry, and DADA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139005 Finwitch: > I'd like to see Neville beat Snape in combat. AD: Me too! > Not because of Occlumency but because of his being so *accident* > prone he does things he doesn't mean to do... AD: I'm not sure that's true of Neville anymore--he did well in the DA, and we haven't seen him lose Trevor for quite some time. And he has a new wand... I was disappointed that we didn't see more of the new, improved Neville in HBP. Finwitch: > Besides, I quite sided with Sirius - particularly when he had not > been yet told *why* Harry should learn Occlumency (which turned out > to be a fiasco anyway) - honest, why should he permit his godson to > be taught how to lie by someone who happens to a) bear a Dark Mark, > never mind his current loyalites which no one can know for sure > anyway and b)quite apparently hates the boy just because he looks > like his father? AD: With you there, too. That was another scene I wanted to see in HBP. I'm convinced, regardless of what side he's on, that Snape botched the Occlumency lessons (just so we don't start that debate again, yes, I know Harry had a Bad Attitude about it.) Another thing I was disappointed about was that we didn't get to see Harry study Occlumency with a different teacher. I really want to know if yelling "Brace yourself, Bridget!" and then plunging right in full force is the right way to approach things. Given Snape's parting shot, I think there's a chance we'll see it in Book 7, (Tentatively titled: Harry Potter Spills Half the Prince's Blood). Amiable Dorsai From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 15:20:32 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:20:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's. In-Reply-To: <007f01c5ac88$24b29420$52c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139006 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > he [Snape] made the choice to switch sides I disagree, I think from day one Snape has been on the same side, Snape's side. > and went to Dumbledore in an effort > to protect the Potters. Did Snape > switch sides because of his debt to > James, or because of a friendship/love > of Lily? Perhaps he did it for neither reason, perhaps he did it because he had unique information about a secret weapon (Harry), a weapon that could destroy Voldemort and he wanted to make sure the weapon was protected until mature. > I also don't think Snape is going > to last far into book 7 Only JKR knows for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if Snape lasts longer than Voldemort and the big final confrontation Harry has is not with Voldemort at all but with someone he hates just as much. > It [evil Snape] makes Dumbledore a fool > not just a man who makes mistakes > but an utter fool I don't know about being a fool but even the good Snape people must admit Dumbledore has done some very foolish things in HBP. Dumbledore was very surprised that Death Eaters had gotten into the castle, but Harry had warned him that something like that might happen when they were away finding the (fake) Horcrux; Harry even pinpointed where the danger was, the Room Of Requirement, and who was behind it, Draco. So Harry told Dumbledore when the danger would happen, where it would come from and who was behind it; but when it did happen just as Harry said it would Dumbledore was surprised. > fooling Dumbledore for sixteen years, > on Voldemort's side as Harry and Ron > suspected all along, would be the > more boring plot. Well if it makes you feel any better, I think Snape fooled Voldemort for 16 years too. By the way, are Lupinlore and me the only people on this group who think Snape's murder of Dumbledore may have some slight bearing on the man's true character? Are we the only ones who altered our opinion of Snape after we say him butcher Dumbledore? Eggplant From midnightowl6 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 15:18:59 2005 From: midnightowl6 at hotmail.com (P J) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:18:59 -0400 Subject: Snape and Pettigrew's obligation to James and Harry respectively Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139007 CathyD >*snip* JKR said that the Diary Horcrux is definitely destroyed and that >Ginny is in no way possessed by Voldemort nor is she a Parselmouth. *snip* As often as I've read this quote I've never really noticed this particular sentence before but this time it just hit me betweenthe eyes... Is this one more instance of her slipping us information underthe radar? Is she telling us that Harry IS possessed by Voldermort because he IS a Parselmouth? CathyD >JKR also says that she uses Dumbledore and Hermione to give information to >the reader. Coinvincing information that can't be passed by anyone else. >Dumbledore, because "well Dumbledore knows pretty much everything anyway" >and Hermione because she's "read it somewhere." I believe it was at the end of CoS where DD tells Harry that he's a Parselmouth because Voldermort was and that some of Voldermort's powers were transferred to Harry the night his parents were killed. Am I reading too much into this or do these two pieces of information tell us that Harry is a horcrux? PJ ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 29 15:33:29 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:33:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > But then again, maybe I'm an odd one and actually found Snape *far* > more sympathetic before OotP. Why? Because then, under the open > situation we had, not knowing which way the war would go, I had hopes for Snape acting like a mature and helpful adult. I actually lost some sympathy for Snape after the Pensieve scene when he throws Harry out--it's all about Snape and his humiliation there, and he can't or won't calm down enough (later, either) to wonder what Harry *actually* thought about the situation. > > I suspect a little more of the other shoe is going to drop, as HBP > did some of that with Snape's invention of the curses. Pippin: But this is Harry's story, not Snape's. It's Harry who has to become a mature and capable adult, which means learning to accept that there are adults who may not be as mature and capable as he is, but are not deserving of the word 'evil', which as Hermione says is awfully strong. Is that really the word we want to use for nasty school teachers? Nora: > Those themes are there if you want to read them as consistently there. However, HBP did us all the favor of problematizing everything we know about Snape, without resolving solidly any of the major issues (schooldays, so-called Prank, role in the DEs, defection), which means those things may not be actual. Pippin: It would weaken the impact of the last book to resolve any major issues in this one. Instead, what we we learn is what's at stake for the characters in getting the major issues resolved. We're given a very broad hint that we can't possibly understand what's going on with Snape without knowing his past history, just as Harry/the reader couldn't understand, without Voldemort's history, why the power of love should be key to defeating him. Yet Snape's past history is kept from us, which certainly *doesn't* tell us that it's not important. You might as well argue that it wasn't important whether Vader was really Luke's father, since Lucas didn't resolve that in The Empire Strikes Back. Nora: It's all in motivations, methinks. The guy who knew everything could be not an idiot, but cruelly deceived by someone he thought was genuine. It could be exceedingly BANG-y whereby Harry has been wrong about Snape in the past, but for once is actually right. Pippin: How can he be right when he's making judgments the same way he always has, with anger and prejudice? Is it the idea that once you grow up, you can trust your prejudices? Bleh! It will be a lot more BANG-y if not only Dumbledore but Harry himself has been cruelly deceived by someone he thought was genuine. I have to point out, incidentally, that Harry was not. right. about. Draco. Dumbledore was holding off acting in order not to precipitate a crisis, and didn't realize the crisis was nigh. But the reason he didn't realize it was that Harry didn't tell him that Trelawney had been attacked. That meant the jig was up --Draco knew his hiding place had been discovered and he would have to act or give up. But Harry, having spent the whole year telling Dumbledore things he already knew, forgot to tell Dumbledore the one thing that might have made a difference. Read it and weep. Nora: If you increasingly think (as I do) that JKR has a concept of Character, the red flags have been going off for books. Pippin: They sure have! What about the guy whom Harry thinks is genuine, and has admitted to being twice unworthy of Dumbledore's trust? Hint: it's not Snape. Nora: > I also think the complexity of the books well can be overrated. Note all the wacky theories for plot that people have come up with, almost none of which have turned out; it's not too much of a stretch tonote that very complex theme-readings, and not only the plot-readings, might turn out to be pushed aside. Pippin: You mean conspiracy theories like, Dumbledore is running a secret organization of spies, Snape has managed to worm his way back into what passes for Voldemort's confidence, Snape was the eavesdropper, Lupin is spying on the werewolves? Those theories? I can't take credit for 'em. But I definitely read 'em all here. And they're canon now. Nora: > Even for my formulation of Out For Himself Snape, he's explainable > with a surprisingly small amount of information. As I see it, the > key to the character is that his complexity has been pinned on a > combination of observed actions and omitted implications--and I don't know what the ultimate balance is. Pippin: The trouble with Out for Himself Snape is that it relies on an inconsistent evaluation of Harry's ability to read Snape. I mean, Harry thinks Snape hates him and needles him because Snape believes that Harry is a weak and unworthy wizard. That's what makes it hurt so much -- because Harry is afraid in his heart that this is true. But OFH!Snape can't believe this; after all he's only keeping Harry alive because Harry is the Chosen One, right? So Harry has to be wrong. And we're back to OscarWinner!Snape, too. Despite this, we are supposed to believe that Harry cannot be wrong about the meaning of Snape's look of hatred and revulsion on the tower. And that doesn't make any sense at all -- well, not to me anyway. Pippin From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Aug 29 16:09:48 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:09:48 -0000 Subject: Dolores Umbridge In-Reply-To: <1ab.3e38876a.30446d59@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RoxyElliot at a... wrote: > What I'd like to see is for her and Percy to both have to > choose between what is easy and what is right, with Umbridge > going with the easy and Percy finally choosing what is right. Derek: Sounds good to me! I'd love to finally see some reason to believe Percy was correctly sorted into Gryffindor, when all we've seen of him thus far clearly (IMO) indicates he was more suited to Slytherin. I think Dolores needs to move into a new line of work. "Dementor Dance Instructor" sounds good. ;-) And just for the record... Dolores Umbridge = Gruesome Old Bird From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 16:17:03 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:17:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > But this is Harry's story, not Snape's. > It's Harry who has to become a mature and capable adult, which > means learning to accept that there are adults who may not be as > mature and capable as he is, but are not deserving of the word > 'evil', which as Hermione says is awfully strong. Is that really > the word we want to use for nasty school teachers? Evil is a word that one could use for a murderer--and you must admit that the jury is eminently out upon that one. Perhaps the story is going to be that one has to leave aside some genuine evils to deal with others--but one must not discount the lesser evil as what it is simply because of the circumstances. > Yet Snape's past history is kept from us, which certainly *doesn't* > tell us that it's not important. You might as well argue that it > wasn't important whether Vader was really Luke's father, since > Lucas didn't resolve that in The Empire Strikes Back. Let me clarify this; what I meant was that given the problematization of Snape in the book, we may well be framing the questions completely wrong to begin with. > Pippin: > How can he be right when he's making judgments the same way > he always has, with anger and prejudice? Is it the idea that once > you grow up, you can trust your prejudices? Bleh! The idea may well be that you can trust your instincts, your gut, your heart. In interview (which you noted elsewhere), JKR says that Harry can't do Occlumency--and she says that yes, he is damaged, but also that he is too fundamentally honest with himself about his experiences to *repress* them. I found it interesting that (contrary to my thoughts) Occlumency has now been framed as something those who can cut themselves off from the better emotions, such as pity, excel at. Repressing the emotions is generally (I ain't a psychologist, so anyone can hop in) not a healthy thing. Dumbledore told us that Harry's heart saved him, not his ability to block his mind. The solution may be more of an emotionally-centered one (forgiveness, realization of that sort) rather than intellectually (Harry works out all the events and plot nuances). I suspect that not getting the latter would be a disappointment to many readers who like to try to figure everything out by the details, but I can see it not happening. Or it could. > Pippin: > You mean conspiracy theories like, Dumbledore is running a secret > organization of spies, Snape has managed to worm his way back into > what passes for Voldemort's confidence, Snape was the eavesdropper, > Lupin is spying on the werewolves? Those theories? > I can't take credit for 'em. But I definitely read 'em all here. And > they're canon now. Oh, I was thinking more along the lines of "Snape was only acting in the Shrieking Shack upon Dumbledore's orders so that Peter would end up sent back to Voldemort bearing a life debt to Harry", or "Snape and Dumbledore had a plan created long in advance so that Dumbledore knew everything and Snape actually cast an Impedimenta instead of an Avada Kedavra because Dumbledore told him to" actually. Or any of the things about Neville having memory charms and being set up as a sleeper agent, Lily having known she was going to die and plotting with whoever to set up the events as they went down, etc. You know, normal stuff in the Safe House. :) -Nora sits up in Switzerland, way above the shores of the Bay From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 29 16:26:38 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:26:38 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > The trouble with Out for Himself Snape is that it relies on an > inconsistent evaluation of Harry's ability to read Snape. > > I mean, Harry thinks Snape hates him and needles him because Snape > believes that Harry is a weak and unworthy wizard. That's what makes > it hurt so much -- because Harry is afraid in his heart that this is > true. But OFH!Snape can't believe this; after all he's only keeping > Harry alive because Harry is the Chosen One, right? So Harry has to > be wrong. And we're back to OscarWinner!Snape, too. > > Despite this, we are supposed to believe that Harry cannot be > wrong about the meaning of Snape's look of hatred and revulsion > on the tower. And that doesn't make any sense at all -- well, not > to me anyway. Marianne: You've lost me here. Are you saying that Snape can't believe that Harry is no more than a weak wizard or that Snape can't believe that Harry believes in his (Harry's) heart that he's a weak wizard? Either way, I don't see that it matters to OFH!Snape. Actually, I'm not sure it matters to any version of Snape. I think Snape does think Harry is mediocre at best, and he also displays all those annoying Griffindor tendencies of emotional outbursts and letting the heart sometimes trump the mind. But, Harry, the Chosen One, is just that, however much the package may not measure up to Snape's estimation of a powerful wizard. OFH!Snape may be shaking his head at Harry's inability to throw a good curse, and wondering how the boy can ever possibly hope to vanquish Vmort. But he (and the rest of the Snapes out there) may also be blinded by thinking that only powerful or DE-approved methods will vanquish Vmort, when it's possible that Harry will do it in some other way. Marianne From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 16:34:17 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:34:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139012 eggplant: > Only JKR knows for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if Snape lasts > longer than Voldemort and the big final confrontation Harry has is not > with Voldemort at all but with someone he hates just as much. zgirnius: I'm with the theory that JKR is writing a fairly standard Hero's Quest sort of story (often cited as a reason Snape can't turn out to be the Hero of Book 7). For the same reason, he can't turn out to be the Villain of it, either. We've known the set-up since Book 1, Voldemort is the Evil Dark Lord, and Harry is his Prophecied Heroic Nemesis. After Book 6, certainly, Snape *cannot* disappear completely off the radar, but will, (my opinion!) have a limited role. A heroic, redemptive death that furthers Harry's cause prior to the final showdown, if I'm right that he's more on the side of good than not; or an ignomonious death, again prior to the final showdown, if I am wrong. eggplant: > I don't know about being a fool but even the good Snape people must > admit Dumbledore has done some very foolish things in HBP. > Harry told Dumbledore when the danger would happen, where it would > come from and who was behind it; but when it did happen just as > Harry said it would Dumbledore was surprised. zgirnius: Conceded. I personally felt that was more than enough to demonstrate how much "huger" DD's mistakes can be than those of less clever folks... eggplant: > Well if it makes you feel any better, I think Snape fooled Voldemort > for 16 years too. zgirnius: If you are right, these kind words of solace will be appreciated by me when I finish reading Book 7... It is a problem for either the Good! or Evil! Snape camps, of course, to explain how exactly Snape managed to fool one or the other Super- Wizard for sixteen years. The Good!Snape argument would have to center around Snape's motivation for changing sides having something to do with *love*, "the power he (Voldemort) knows not". eggplant: > Are we the only ones who altered our > opinion of Snape after we say him butcher Dumbledore? zgirnius: For five books I had been vastly enjoying Snape's nasty, sarcastic character. (Probably says something about my sense of humor...) I had no idea what his true loyalties were, since I saw actions which would fit either option, and also little emotional investment in the issue of his loyalties, since he would, in my opinion, have made a delightful addition to the list of Bad Guys. (Bella, eat your heart out! The woman is Gryffindoresque in her loyalty to Voldemort...Snape could be so much more nasty, IMHO.) The events of HBP, oddly enough, *have* altered my position vis-a-vis Snape. My analytical, logical side simply does not believe it is likely that Snape's actions were motivated by either loyalty to Voldemort, or pursuit of a Dark Lord-style personal agenda. (A more emotionally driven style personal agenda, revenge, secret love, or something like that, I can see.) My romantic, emotional side is really *hoping* for a nice redemptive moment for Snape, and some very satisfying backstory to explain the guy. And for me the key events which shaped this view were the scene on the tower and the scenes with Harry in "The Flight of the Prince". I just can't read those scenes (and I have read them many, many times) and see a Snape who has any sense of accomplishment there. And, if it had all worked out as he planned/wished, he ought to have. To me, he really seems on the contrary trapped, and unhappy. Let's say, I am very unconvinced that what I saw was a premeditated, cold-blooded murder. (Some other sort of murder, yes, could be.) If you turn out to be right, I hope that at least I finally get more nasty, evil Snape scenes...this is what I *really* wanted on the Tower, and didn't get. (Since this absence means I apparently get 2 years of entertaining debate about Snape on this list, note that I am not complaining about JKR...just offering a Book 7 suggestion...) From lady.indigo at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 15:37:18 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:37:18 -0400 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee7050828185090d4977@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee705082908375f946702@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139013 On 8/29/05, nrenka wrote: > > 'Six books' is a little misleading; Snape has figured into six books, > but when you go back and look at how much actual page time he has, he > does far less than one might think (especially given his habitually > inflated role in fanfiction). We certainly never get much insight or > illumination into his actions. Nonetheless, I've read very little fanfiction and looked at very little speculation about the books until post-HBP and I still feel like I understand and am concerned about this character far more than Pettigrew. Snape fans are not all love-blind tin hat theorists looking at selective evidence; a lot more has been answered and a lot more questions are still being asked than anything Pettigrew had a role in. That's not to deny that he's been more central than Peter, but Peter > has always been there, in the background--perhaps even more pivotal > in events than Snape has been. It's been a huge question since book > 3, why did Peter do it? And being as this connects immediately to > James and Lily's deaths, I think there's a lot of resonance there. I've never questioned why Peter did it, because as far as I know that was answered for me. Peter was a follower, probably very insecure, felt a lot weaker than his friends as much as he adored them, and when threatened by Voldemort he joined up out of cowardice and a need to be protected rather than do the right thing and sacrifice himself. He's a Neville who went wrong, in a sense. If there's any more mystery behind that, any ambiguity that I'm forgetting, let me know. > > That wasn't quite my complaint, actually; I just hooked onto the > thread. :) Sorry. :) I'm terrible at keeping track of who's writing what still. It was the original complaint, I should probably say. But then again, maybe I'm an odd one and actually found Snape *far* > more sympathetic before OotP. Why? Because then, under the open > situation we had, not knowing which way the war would go, I had hopes > for Snape acting like a mature and helpful adult. I actually lost > some sympathy for Snape after the Pensieve scene when he throws Harry > out--it's all about Snape and his humiliation there, and he can't or > won't calm down enough (later, either) to wonder what Harry > *actually* thought about the situation. Which is an incredibly immature and stupid thing to do, yes, but I understand Snape with regard to Harry - this is a situation he'll read into what he will, and react based on injured pride and a need to attack James through his son. If he'd responded any other way he'd certainly be a more mature and stable person but he definitely wouldn't be Snape. And I've had several friends in my life who have been so hurt by others that they can't be entirely rational about certain subjects, friends who in many other aspects are definitely adults. It's being reminded of them, maybe, that increases my sympathy for Snape following all that. He's a man who's had an unstable and painful life he's seen no break from, and after a while I'm sure it's enough to warrent some *massive* therapy he's not currently recieving. However, HBP did us all the favor of problematizing > everything we know about Snape, without resolving solidly any of the > major issues (schooldays, so-called Prank, role in the DEs, > defection), which means those things may not be actual. What do you mean, exactly? We knew Snape had invented curses, even came to school knowing them, from OotP. If I'd been bullied constantly and probably abused by my father, frankly I'd be mixing up some way to defend myself too. Meanwhile, Harry's not rational enough on the subject of Snape to really think about these things, but I maintain the subject would have not come up time and time again since Book 3 if it didn't have some importance. I can't accept that in a "children's book" there isn't something to be learned from the 'good guys' bullying Snape and hating him to this day, and what that led to. > > [Is that the realism that gives us an emotionally sound Harry after > 10-something years of neglect at the hands of his relatives? Or > should we say plausibility...ack, not a great word either. Welcome > to the realm of fiction...] I knew someone was going to bring this up and I've thought about it myself. There are two answers to this, I think...first of all, Hogwarts created more problems for Harry but it *did* turn out to be an escape, a place where he had friends and belonged and needed to go back to. (Snape didn't have refuge anywhere; his home was abusive, whether or not it was as abusive as the Marauders at Hogwarts.) Secondly, while everyone has a different emotional core and resilience against pain and abuse, I don't think Harry *is* perfectly sound. He's projected his anger onto Voldemort and Snape, but there's an incredible amount of it. I can't imagine it's ALL leveled at those two sources, when he'd never even met Voldemort until Book 4 and doesn't really recall his parents. A lot of it has been built up by the Dursleys, whether or not he's too good to take it out on them. It's all in motivations, methinks. The guy who knew everything could > be not an idiot, but cruelly deceived by someone he thought was > genuine. It could be exceedingly BANG-y whereby Harry has been wrong > about Snape in the past, but for once is actually right. Yes, and the BANG was in this book, very well-executed, but I really think we can't go on from here. It'd mean that Harry wasn't wrong in the past, right in the future - he was just *right all along*, and so was his father, and so was everyone else who ever doubted the guy and barely associated with him. What do those years of mistaken prejudice even matter if the core of that prejudice is so firmly grounded in reality? And I'm not about to argue whether or not Dumbledore's forgiveness was stupidity or just well-executed deception, because we'll be here all day, but it still means Snape was trusted for an *extremely* dubious reason that a child would have blinked and said "WTF?" to. If that's all the payoff we get, I'm taking my bike and going home. But there are still ambiguities behind the 'betrayal' for a reason, still hints that there was something very important about Lily, and so I don't think this is all we get. I also think the complexity of the books well can be overrated. Note > all the wacky theories for plot that people have come up with, almost > none of which have turned out; it's not too much of a stretch to note > that very complex theme-readings, and not only the plot-readings, > might turn out to be pushed aside. It's very easy to play tin hatter about Harry Potter plot because JKR *has* given us so many little hints that come to fruition later. People are just harping on the wrong ones, are still shaky about how to read her. But we haven't invented the way she tells a bit of a mystery story, we haven't invented the running commentary on bravery because she told us herself it's there, and I doubt, whether it's a theme of the book, that we've invented the relevance - not the importance, but the relevance - of Snape's backstory. Again, if all that's to be derived from his ambiguities and his sympathetic elements is that you're supposed to hate him, then Rowling has no idea what she's working with and she's an idiot if she thought she'd get no Snape sympathizers. I think, though, she's smarter than this. - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 29 17:04:28 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:04:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <20050829021726.38043.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139014 **Replies to several people on this thread** > lady.indigo at g... wrote: > <> I think a lot of Snape's continuing problems have to do > with Harry being an utter idiot towards and about him. The instant > he discovered that his father was a lot of things that Snape had > always claimed he was, Lupin's "well, we were very young then" > nonsense or no, the *first thing* Harry should have done was gone > to Snape and both apologized about poking into his very private > things and said "What my father did was unforgiveable but I am > not my father." It's a lot of his own failings and pride that has > allowed this relationship to fester into something even worse than > what he began it to be. (Though Snape has a huge part in this too, > certainly, and I don't excuse his bitterness or cruelty towards > all of his students in the least.)<<< JenR.: Harry learned something very important from that Pensieve incident and he said it himself--Snape was right about James, and Harry himself identified with Snape more than James in the memory. I can't help but think of Tom Riddle, who might have been the type of person to apologize to Snape at a surface level with absolutely no conviction his actions were wrong(if he ever cared enough about someone, good or bad, to look into their Pensive to begin with). But my point being that Harry actually learned something important from the incident whether he told Snape or not, and his internal shift was much more crucial to moral development than the words--it makes a conviction in spoken words possible. I believe this subtle change is what made him trust Snape enough to tell him 'he's got Padfoot in the place where it's hidden!'. After watching Snape and Sirius interact, Harry knows the bitterness between them. But Harry seems to finally believe Snape is trustworthy enough to put aside personal feelings and act as an Order member and Dumbledore loyalist in that situaion. Second-hand trust as Nora calls it . Whether Snape was worthy of that trust remains to be seen. Then later in OOTP in DD's office, we see the slide back downhill: "he felt a savage pleasure in blaming Snape, it seemed to be easing his own sense of dreadful guilt, and he wanted to hear Dumbledore agree with him." (chap. 37, p. 833, Scholastic). Harry, stressed and wallowing in his own guilt, falls back on the old stand- by--hating Snape. Little does he know at that point how much reason he really *does* have to hate Snape-as-Eavesdropper. I have a point here, I think ;). Well, it's mainly that in a normal relationship Harry's apology and Snape's acceptance of said apology just might work. But they don't have a chance from Day 1 for a normal relationship, not with James' ghost between them (and probably Lily's as well). Just the fact that Harry could see Snape's POV through his Hero!James complex seemed like a huge leap to me, more than I expected to see after books 1-4. Merylanna: > I think Sirius had to die in order to fuel Harry's hatred of Snape > and his reaction to the events in Book 6, which of course, sets up > the big pay-offs in Book 7. I get that. I don't get where Harry's > ungodly rage toward Snape is coming from during the early and mid > going of OoTP. It's like Harry isn't paying attention to the Snape > in front of him, but to the Snape in his mind. When did Harry > become so DETERMINED to hate Snape so ferociously? It seems much > more intense in OoTP than before, and very marked because the > Snape in front of him is far more nuanced than Harry is perceiving. JenR.: Several things may have combined to fuel that rage. For one Harry was mad at everyone, so it makes contextual sense his anger toward Snape might intensify. He's also dealing with Dumbledore ignoring & excluding him after giving him attention and praise in previous years. Harry expected to be more involved in the 'Anti- Voldemort Movement' than he was, and seeing Snape act as an important Order member doesn't help. So, Harry identifies even more with Sirius as another person left out of the important work of the Order. Pippin's excellent point below could have fuled the anger too, especially after the graveyard scene. Harry barely escaped, and thinks luck was the only thing that got him out alive. Thinking Snape would agree with that assessment, that he's only a so-so wizard, could definitely fuel the fire. And the last thing I hope we hear more about in Book 7 is whether Voldemort messing around in Harry's mind contributed at all to his hot-headedness in OOTP. Pippin: > I mean, Harry thinks Snape hates him and needles him because Snape > believes that Harry is a weak and unworthy wizard. That's what > makes it hurt so much -- because Harry is afraid in his heart that > this is true. But OFH!Snape can't believe this; after all he's > only keeping Harry alive because Harry is the Chosen One, right? > So Harry has to be wrong. And we're back to OscarWinner!Snape, too. JenR.: Every once in awhile something rings completely true, and this is a big one Pippin. We never hear Harry actually think this to himself, but HBP made it clear Harry doesn't feel he's up for the task of the Chosen One. He started dabbling in Dark arts, and acted out that charade in Slughorn's classroom. He's trying to feel powerful by co-opting strategies from other people because he saw Dumbledore and Voldemort fighting and KNOWS he's not a wizard equal to Voldemort in the traditional sense. Dumbledore keeps trying to reinforce to him it's not power that will defeat Voldemort, it's something only Harry can do. Like retrieving the memory from Slughorn but on a giant scale! I loved how good Harry felt about retrieving that memory, how he rushed to Dumbledore's office to share it with him the minute he learned DD was around. Maybe Harry will finally believe Dumbeldore in Book 7 and stop trying to be someone he's not. JenR. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 17:40:20 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:40:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's story, not Snape's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139015 rochesteruponmedway wrote: > There is an old story that Shakespeare was obliged to kill of Mercutio > half-way through Romeo and Juliet, because his character was becoming > more interesting than that of the hero, Romeo. I think something like > this is happening with Snape and Harry. So it looks as though it might > be an early bath for Snape. > You don't say! And here I thought Shakespeare was obliged to kill Mercutio so that Romeo would kill Tybalt, which, in turn, would lead to his banishment to Mantua and separation with Juliet. Shows how blind one can be.(Wonder why did Shakespeare neglect to dispatch Shylock in the same manner?) But wait, Snape is still alive! It's Dumbledore who got himself killed. Does that mean that he's grown more interesting than the hero? I kinda see your point. a_svirn From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 29 17:53:36 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:53:36 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: <4312DE8B.60806@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > phoenixgod2000 wrote: > > > > > I found it! > > > > "Hark who's talking," he whispered back. "Confunded anyone lately?" > > > > > I'm surprised that the line didn't stick out for more people. It > > struck me as one of several truly bizzare turns of phrase in the book. > > > > phoenixgod2000 > > digger: > 'Hark who's talking' is a commonplace phrase in British English. > Using the work 'Hark!' on its own, or as an exclamation, is pretty much > obsolote though. Geoff: "Hark who's talking" is indeed a common expression - I use it myself. It suggests that the speaker isn't really in a position to comment because they have said or done something similar. It's along the same lines as "the pot calling the kettle black". My apologies, I was completely thrown by the earlier post. It was the reference to Christmas carols ("Hark, the herald angels sing") which put me onto the wrong train of thought. "Hark", in that context is, as Digger rightly says, obsolete and archaic. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 29 18:02:24 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:02:24 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: <4312EF98.2070809@me.chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fabian Peng K?rrholm wrote: Fabian: > Hi! > > ... is the Latin language, as well as English. Just think about it, the > entire Magic community, has not had more teachings in the English > language than a 11 year old schoolkid. > If they at least learned latin, then Harry wouldn't have to wonder > what a spell like "levicorpus" does, and it could also be easier to > invent new ones. Geoff: In one sense I agree with you. I took Latin to O level when I was at grammar school and, despite the fact that I trained as a Maths teacher and later was involved in Computing, I have never regretted learning the language. It is a marvellous tool for dealing with technical words which often use Latin or Greek roots and, once you have mastered Latin with six cases, German with four is a relative doddle. On the other hand, I would have thought that for Hogwarts students, a Dictionary of Spells, listing them alphabetically with a description of their use, rather as we have an ordinary dictionary, would be sufficient. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 18:08:40 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:08:40 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fabian Peng K?rrholm > wrote: > > Fabian: > > Hi! > > > > ... is the Latin language, as well as English. Just think about it, > the > > entire Magic community, has not had more teachings in the English > > language than a 11 year old schoolkid. > > If they at least learned latin, then Harry wouldn't have to > wonder > > what a spell like "levicorpus" does, and it could also be easier to > > invent new ones. > > Geoff: > In one sense I agree with you. I took Latin to O level when I was at > grammar school and, despite the fact that I trained as a Maths > teacher and later was involved in Computing, I have never regretted > learning the language. It is a marvellous tool for dealing with > technical words which often use Latin or Greek roots and, once you > have mastered Latin with six cases, German with four is a relative > doddle. > > On the other hand, I would have thought that for Hogwarts students, a > Dictionary of Spells, listing them alphabetically with a description > of their use, rather as we have an ordinary dictionary, would be > sufficient. Yet, it does make me wonder why, say, Hermione would brave Ancient Runes and neglect more obviously useful Latin. It's like heading to the University without even completing secondary education. a_svirn From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Aug 29 18:12:46 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:12:46 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: <1c1.2f75b4b6.30440637@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139019 > Betsy Hp: > Snape doesn't neccessarily have to have been in romantic love with > Lily for my theory to work. He was canonically fairly lonely > (sitting alone under a bush in OotP) so any friend would be > important to him. I think he and Lily became secret friends > (through a mutual interest in potions) in their first year and she > gave him his nickname. I think he visited Lily at her home and he's > the "horrible boy" who spoke of the dementors guarding Azkaban that > Petunia referred to in OotP. Christina: I've been thinking along these lines myself for a while now, and I posted a couple of weeks back on the "horrible boy" comment (which Harry takes care to point out for us does *not* use either of his parents' names). I think you're dead-on. Why else make Lily good at Potions? JKR has said that the fact that her wand is good at charms is significant, but as for Potions skill, to be blunt...who cares? The only purpose I can think for that tidbit of information to serve is as a means by which Snape and Lily could get to know each other. Also, why, *why*, would Snape, a Slytherin, go around calling himself a nickname that proclaims himself a half-blood? If he only used it around Lily, it starts to make sense. She, in doubt that any Slytherin could have an open mind about bloodlines, would appreciate Snape's acknowledgement of his Muggle blood. In the Slytherin world of prejudice and pureblood pride, calling yourself a half-blood is not drawing attention to pure blood that you have, it's calling attention to Muggle blood that you have. ...Snipping your version of Snape and Lily's fallout, which I agree with... > Betsy Hp: > Then, to his horror, his information is > used to fuel Voldemort's intense interest in seeing the entire > Potter family (including his old friend, Lily) slaughtered. > > Snape runs to Dumbledore and tells him everything. Christina: Another of my long-standing theories! I love this idea- it would give a lot of weight to Dumbledore's claim that Snape was very remorseful of his part in what Voldemort was about to do. It is also a demonstration of Snape trying to right a previous wrong. I'm in the camp that thinks that Snape is too complex to be simply all good or all evil (his complexity is what makes him my favorite character), so I would like to see him give some recognition to his wrongs. ALSO, this introduces a wonderful little irony- in the end, it was Snape, James's supposed worst enemy, that was desperately trying to save his life while Peter, one of James's supposed best friends, was giving Voldemort the final tool he needed to kill the Potters. > Betsy Hp: > Snape is heartbroken and swears > vengence (or whatever) and Dumbledore realizes that he can fully > trust Severus Snape. Christina: We know that Snape switched to the good side before Lily was killed (if his change of heart was genuine, but I think we agree that it was). I think what you're suggesting is that Dumbledore could have taken Snape's reaction to Lily's death as the final seal on his trust of him, which...I don't know. It seems a bit wishy-washy for Dumbledore to accept (because that's really the kind of thing that could be faked), but I can buy Dumbledore being convinced by something that has so much to do with love (whether you think it was romantic, friendly, or whatever). What I *would* have an issue with is if JKR tries to tell us that Snape turned over to the good side (and that Dumbledore believes his change of heart) solely over Lily. For the Snape defection to matter at all, Snape had to realize that Voldemort was doing a *lot* of bad things to a *lot* of people. If Lily is the conduit that helps him to see that broader picture, than this whole scenario works beautifully. It's the distinction between, "Oh no, Lily's dead, Voldemort has to pay, and boy am I ashamed that I had a part in her death" and "Oh no, Lily's dead and Voldemort is a ruthless killer and has been taking people's loved ones away for a long time and that's just wrong, and boy am I ashamed of all of my actions as a Death Eater." The distinction is empathy. Did Snape broaden his pain to realize the overall evils of the organization he was a part of? If not, the defection is cheapened and, to me at least, means nothing at all. All of that said, I still think that Snape was stewing for a while before the prophesy incident. I think he fell slowly *into* the Death Eaters, and came just as slowly back out of them. Someone (sorry I don't remember who it was- ack!) suggested it might have something to do with Regulus Black. I think Regulus *is* RAB and was having doubts about his work (as Sirius said) and shared those doubts with Snape (who developed some similar doubts). > Betsy Hp: > Of course, I myself like the idea of Snape in love > because otherwise what a waste of the sexy. Christina: I personally don't think that Adult!Snape was harboring a secret obsessive passion for Lily (I'm not sure if you do or not, but I've heard it suggested). He may have lusted after her a teensy bit when he was young (after all, as Julie says, he *was* 15 at some point, and we know Lily was quite good-looking), but I think that he was attracted to her mind rather than her body. I think his feelings toward her were mainly friendly. ...But I totally love you for the "wasting the sexy" comment. I hate Pining!Snape, but the man *has* got a heart (IMO at least) underneath all those black robes. And what sexy robes those are. Christina From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 29 18:32:54 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:32:54 -0000 Subject: H arry's story, not Snape's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139020 > You don't say! And here I thought Shakespeare was obliged to kill Mercutio so that Romeo would kill Tybalt, which, in turn, would lead to his banishment to Mantua and separation with Juliet. Shows how blind one can be.(Wonder why did Shakespeare neglect to dispatch Shylock in the same manner?) Actually it was Ben Jonson who made this comment, so have it out with him if you dont agree. I just wonder why you have to be so offensively sarcastic in replying to a perfectly inoffensive post. It is possible to disagree with someone without being so unpleasant. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 18:44:48 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:44:48 -0000 Subject: H arry's story, not Snape's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > > > You don't say! And here I thought Shakespeare was obliged to kill > Mercutio so that Romeo would kill Tybalt, which, in turn, would lead > to his banishment to Mantua and separation with Juliet. Shows how > blind one can be.(Wonder why did Shakespeare neglect to dispatch > Shylock in the same manner?) > > Actually it was Ben Jonson who made this comment, so have it out with > him if you dont agree. I just wonder why you have to be so offensively > sarcastic in replying to a perfectly inoffensive post. It is possible > to disagree with someone without being so unpleasant. Actually, I think it's Ben Jonson who was offensively sarcastic. Somewhat of a speciality of his, by the way. And you snipped the part where I disagreed with you. a_svirn From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 18:51:44 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:51:44 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139022 a_svirn: > Yet, it does make me wonder why, say, Hermione would brave Ancient > Runes and neglect more obviously useful Latin. It's like heading to > the University without even completing secondary education. Hermione seems to have some knowledge of latin, in PoA, she apparently coined "Mobliarbus" to move a christmas tree. Amiable Dorsai From doliesl at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 18:52:25 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's story, not Snape's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050829185225.83259.qmail@web30315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139023 Yeah, this "This is Harry's story, not Snape's" retort comes out again and again on this list, from the same people who ironically are also the very same people who can never stop talking about Snape themselves with 99.9% of their post here are Snape related. I remember that last time this ignite a "This is Harry's story, not Snape's" discussion was pre-HBP, when someone speculated Snape being the half-blood Prince (though it was never a big theory that gain much indepth discussion). I remember some people, who just seems to can't stand Snape being 'important' and a 'gift of a character", were all jumping up the fence "oh puhleeazse Snape can't be the HBP!!! Come on this is oh so ridiculous! ", and reason being "you Snape fans think it's all about Snape...this is Harry's story, not Snape. Snape is just an 'obvious', one-note, contrive, boring and uninteresting character." blah blah... Boy, and we all know how wrong and WAYYYYY OFF the naysayers were. ;p D. From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Mon Aug 29 11:31:19 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:31:19 +0200 Subject: Dolores Umbridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4312F207.4040507@me.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 139024 Samantha wrote: > Now that it is obvious nothing is going to be done about all the > cruel and malicious things Umbridge did while at Hogwarts, what > would you like to see happen to her now? What would be justice? Detention, writing lines with a quill that creates body tattoos instead of just a line on the back of the hand. /Fabian From merylanna at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 15:57:25 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050829155725.824.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139025 --- msbeadsley wrote: I don't recall when and where JKR expressed concern about Snape's popularity that was obviously different from her concern about Draco's popularity. JKR herself said that Snape is fun to write; why wouldn't she want him to be fun to read? Neither Snape nor Draco are characters JKR thinks are good, healthy romantic interests or role models. Whether or not Snape and/or Draco end up on the side of the light, they're STILL not good romantic interests or role models. <<< You know, really good point, and I kind of missed it myself when JKR said it. Snape could well be on the side of good without being a healthy or viable romantic interest at this point. Anyhow, the "love story" that mosts interests me where Snape is concerned is what I perceive to be his platonic love with Dumbledore. Possibly the only healthy experience of love in his life, and a mere first step toward any other kind. Sort of a parental need fulfilled, late in life. Even though, when I read some comments about Snape the Byronic, brooding hero who needs somebody to convince him he can be loved romantically, I think on Snape, who had no trouble telling Hermione he "saw no difference" when her teeth grew to her collarbones, even though Snape himself is no oil painting. When I consider the myriad romantic Snape fanon out there, I sometimes think about some noble woman patiently engaging Snape and convincing him she loves him, only to have him say "No thanks." And mean it. Not because he feels unworthy, or can't trust. But because whoever it is doesn't meet his standards. I always think it would be really something - but awfully likely - for somebody to see the romantic potential in Snape and have him shoot her down because she doesn't cut it for him. That's not something that crosses the minds of a lot of romantics who have targeted Snape for emotional rescue or sexual healing. "merylanna" From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 29 19:27:39 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:27:39 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > a_svirn: > > Yet, it does make me wonder why, say, Hermione would brave Ancient > > Runes and neglect more obviously useful Latin. It's like heading to > > the University without even completing secondary education. Amiable Dorsai: > Hermione seems to have some knowledge of latin, in PoA, she apparently > coined "Mobliarbus" to move a christmas tree. Geoff: I wonder whether she "coined" the spell. Perhaps she has been looking at one of the Standard Book of Spells series and there is a group of spells for shifting things around... After all, when the Trio, Sirius and Lupin are preparing to leave the Shrieking Shack in POA, Lupin uses "Mobilicorpus" to move Snape. From saturniia at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 17:56:36 2005 From: saturniia at yahoo.com (saturniia) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:56:36 -0000 Subject: Weasley Courage (Was Re: Dolores Umbridge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139027 > RoxyElliot at a... wrote: > > What I'd like to see is for her and Percy to both have to > > choose between what is easy and what is right, with Umbridge > > going with the easy and Percy finally choosing what is right. > > Derek : > Sounds good to me! I'd love to finally see some reason to > believe Percy was correctly sorted into Gryffindor, when all > we've seen of him thus far clearly (IMO) indicates he was more > suited to Slytherin. Saturniia: You know, I am sick and tired of people trashing Percy just because he made a choice that was objectionable to his family. Dare I remind you that this so-called "Slytherin" choice was made *after* his father suggested that Percy gained the post because Fudge wanted to spy on the rest of the family and their connection to Dumbledore, rather than his own merit? To a nineteen-year-old who had just gotten a promotion most wizards twice his age would probably kill for, that had to have hurt. The choice was reactionary, yes, but not cunning or "evil". In fact, to stand your ground, leave your family behind and move out into the world for the first time, and remove yourself from the situation for which your employer might have promoted you, whether you wish to believe it or not, is *courageous*. Going back to your family's home for Christmas dinner, a year and a half after you moves out, and staying through the meal when only your mother welcomes you and the rest of your family either ignores you or is hostile to you is courageous. Tossing parsnips at one's sibling at Christmas dinner? Not quite as brave. So really, the Weasleys are trapped in a "no bad guy" situation as far as Percy is concerned. Was Percy wrong to not take his father's words into consideration, and pack up and leave in a huff? Perhaps. Was he wrong to slam his door in his mother's face, return her Christmas present, and ignore his family? Yes. Were his father and his siblings wrong to not correspond with him when he made the effort, ignore him when he *did* visit, and toss mashed tubers at him? Yes. However, I digress. This post was not supposed to be about placing blame, but rather the Weasleys' courage. *All* Weasleys we've met have courage. Bill and Charlie have an adventurous sort of courage, taking dangerous jobs and generally being "cool". Fred and George have a maverick sort of courage, making bets that seem like a long shot, investing their money into a business that could make or break them, and working behind the scenes to produce supplies for the Light side of Voldemort's second war. Arthur and Molly's courage comes from the fact that they're putting themselves on the line *again* to stop Voldemort, and continue doing so without complaint even though they know every one of their children are in the line of fire for one reason or another. Ginny's courage is partly attributed to having been possessed by Voldemort in her first year. It also comes from learning how to stand up against her six brothers, and being ignored by her crush for six years. Ron's courage is displayed mostly in incidental ways, usually as a result of being best friends with The Boy Who Lived. "Following the spiders" is one such display. Lastly, Percy's courage is of an ordinary sort. He's the everyman of the Weasley family, who doesn't have seven children to protect, or his own business, or an especially cool job. His best friend, if he has one, isn't particularly famous, and even though he and Ginny both became tougher from the "six against one" situation that sometimes happens with the Weasley children, the motivation is more often closer to persecution than protection. Under these circumstances, standing his ground when he believes he's right is courageous From reyakittens at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 18:18:21 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:18:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <20050829021726.38043.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139028 Merry Kinsella wrote: > The pensieve stuff doesn't bother me as much as Harry's stubborn > anger at critical Snape/Harry interactions. There are occlumency > moments where Snape is nearly nice. I don't know.. I see this from Harry's view. By the time he takes these lessons he hates Snape.. and with good reason. Snape is always nasty to him. Snape would have had him expelled by now. And Snape always favors Draco who Harry depises. Hearing Snape speak probably makes Harry furious. I guess I can relate becuase I had similar relationship with someone in my life. And at times they would be nice, but I had so much anger toward them for all the bad things they had said to me or put me through , I couldn't even listen to them speak at this point. And Snape is really rude to Harry. I just finished re-reading 5 and now I'm re-reading 6. I'm not so sure I think Snape is completely evil anymore. It really could go either way. On the one hand, I feel there are all sorts of hints that the Slytherin tribe is all about saving themselves and once the vow was made Snape was all about making sure he didn't die. On the other hand, I'm not sure he had to make that vow. If he said no I will not aid Draco if he can't complete this, he could have insisted upon saying Lord V wants Draco to do and this is going behind his back. On the other hand, he seemed to hate being considered a coward. I really can't believe it's only August .. less than 2 months since the book came out and we have to wait so long for book 7. :-( Robyn From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 29 19:40:51 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:40:51 -0000 Subject: Quote Quest (was Re: The graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139029 Not in response to any one poster, but in reaction to the thread in general. I cannot find the quotes which 1) I know I read and 2) I've seen summaries of. It's driving me crazy! (As you can see, it doesn't take much.) Can anyone take a look to see if they can find a JKR quote, made about the time HBP came out, saying that the Hogwarts graveyard was a fandom myth? Potioncat From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 29 19:43:54 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:43:54 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <20050829155725.824.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merry Kinsella wrote: > You know, really good point, and I kind of missed it > myself when JKR said it. Snape could well be on the > side of good without being a healthy or viable > romantic interest at this point. > > Anyhow, the "love story" that mosts interests me where > Snape is concerned is what I perceive to be his > platonic love with Dumbledore. Possibly the only > healthy experience of love in his life, and a mere > first step toward any other kind. Sort of a parental > need fulfilled, late in life. > > I always think it would be really something - but > awfully likely - for somebody to see the romantic > potential in Snape and have him shoot her down because > she doesn't cut it for him. That's not something that > crosses the minds of a lot of romantics who have > targeted Snape for emotional rescue or sexual healing. > > "merylanna" very good post, merylanna. This is how I view Snape - I certainly don't find him sexy or attractive in the least. His character is what engages me, not his looks. He doesn't strike me as a *sexual* being, but more of a cerebral one - the only thing that I can think of being *sexy* about him is his manner of speaking - it is always smoothly, silkily....but then JKR throws in the coldly and unemotionally bits as well - which is NOT sexy or passionate at all. colebiancardi From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 29 19:55:04 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:55:04 -0400 Subject: What indicates to me that Slughorn is related to Harry Message-ID: <000e01c5acd3$8d0fff80$0362d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 139031 hg: >>Yes, and I admitted my mistake was in posting a tidbit, not a fleshed- out theory. Must have sounded half-baked. Still, sorry to be so humorless, but it hurt my feelings. CathyD - just back from slamming her tongue in the microwave door: And for that I am sincerely sorry. I certainly never intended to hurt your feelings with my remarks. I apologise, hg. Apologising to the list-elves as well, as I think this is #4 for today. Off to iron my feet. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 29 20:01:22 2005 From: sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan1) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:01:22 -0000 Subject: Dolores Umbridge In-Reply-To: <4312F207.4040507@me.chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fabian Peng K?rrholm wrote: > Samantha wrote: > > Now that it is obvious nothing is going to be done about all the > > cruel and malicious things Umbridge did while at Hogwarts, what > > would you like to see happen to her now? What would be justice? > > > Detention, writing lines with a quill that creates body tattoos > instead of just a line on the back of the hand. > > /Fabian This is one of my favorite speculation points...still. JKR said she was not done with Delores, "she's too much fun." (interview with TLC and Mugglenet) I'm still holding out for some malicious punishment. Before HBP I thought she would wind up as a toad in F&G's swamp on the 5th floor. Maybe still... How about working as a handler for the department for the disposal of Dangerous creatures, cleaning up after they have been disposed and guarding them (wandless) while they are waiting for disposal. Cleaning toilets without magic for the rest of her life would be okay with me too. Sue(hpfan) who only hates Greyback as a character more. From sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 29 20:14:14 2005 From: sue.stanley at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan1) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:14:14 -0000 Subject: Weasley Courage (Was Re: Dolores Umbridge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saturniia" wrote: > >snip> > > Saturniia: >snip Going back to your family's home for Christmas dinner, a year and a half after you moves out, and staying through the meal when only your mother welcomes you and the rest of your family either ignores you or is hostile to you is courageous. Tossing parsnips at one's sibling at Christmas dinner? Not quite as brave. snip Sue(hpfan) It would have been brave if he had gone there of his own accord to see his mother. He did not, yet again, he did what he was told by his superior (Minister Scrimgeour) to get to Harry. He would never have gone home on his own. It seemed obvious to me when I read it and I also think obvious to his family that he did not care to see them at all. Also remember, JKR herself said that not all Sytheryn's are evil and one of their prominent said "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save out own necks." Phineas Nigellus OotP US HB 495 Percy showed courage by going against his family, he also showed a shallow desire to prove himself to people who really don't care that much about him. All my opinion, of course. Sue, who does not think it okay to fling tubors at anyone, but if one of my siblings had repeatedly and unfairly rejected our mother (his fight was with Arthur not her), I'd probably have flung parsnips too. From derek at rhinobunny.com Mon Aug 29 20:17:21 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:17:21 -0000 Subject: Weasley Courage (Was Re: Dolores Umbridge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139034 > > Derek : > > Sounds good to me! I'd love to finally see some reason to > > believe Percy was correctly sorted into Gryffindor, when all > > we've seen of him thus far clearly (IMO) indicates he was more > > suited to Slytherin. > > > Saturniia: > You know, I am sick and tired of people trashing Percy just > because he made a choice that was objectionable to his family. > (snip an empassioned defense of Percy) Derek: Based on your reply, it sounds like you're assuming I came to this view of Percy after his estrangement from the family in OP. That's not the case. As I noted, IMO, *all* we've seen of him clearly indicates (IMO) that he's more suited to Slytherin. I'm not saying he's evil. I'm not even saying he isn't brave. He's certainly done many brave things in the books. What I'm saying is, it seems clear (at least to me) that his primary motive force is ambition, and ambition is one of the major Slytherin traits. He was haughty and arrogant in his position as a prefect and later as Head Boy, and he's had an enormously exaggerated sense of his own importance since joining the Ministry. In fact, he was *so* arrogant, self-important, and ambitious in GF that it blinded him to the fact that his boss's disappearance and submission of (increasingly odd) instructions by owl was just the teensiest bit peculiar. ;-) And all of this was *before* his big row with his father in OP. That event wasn't revealing some kind of "new" Percy... it was the logical next step in the character evolution of someone who's been enthralled with his own status, and gravitating to those in power, all through the series. Now, having said all that, I'd love to be wrong about Percy. I'd love to have him do the right thing at a key moment. It's also possible (although unlikely, IMO) that Percy may not really be all that arrogant, and that our information of his character has been colored by the perceptions of younger characters through whose eyes we've viewed Percy. It's also distinctly possible that we're going to learn things about the Sorting Hat that affect our view of its decisions. In other words, if the Sorting Hat isn't "really" sorting people into houses based on their true nature, but is instead sorting them based on demeanor, their own desires, whim, random chance, etc., then it may be that Percy was sorted into Gryffindor because -- like Harry -- he simply *asked* to be put in Gryffindor... not because he's the most suited to it. Is Hermione really better suited to Gryffindor than Ravenclaw? She's at least as clever as she is brave, after all... From slmuth at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 20:23:24 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:23:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139035 "eggplant107" wrote: > > By the way, are Lupinlore and me the only people on this group who > think Snape's murder of Dumbledore may have some slight bearing on the > man's true character? Are we the only ones who altered our opinion of > Snape after we say him butcher Dumbledore? > Nope, you're probably just the only ones who have the fortitude to keep swimming upstream against the overwhelming mass of diehard good! snape believers. I gave up when it started making me crazy :-) Keep up the good fight! Janeway From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 20:36:28 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:36:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <20050829155725.824.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139036 >> msbeadsley wrote: >> are good, healthy romantic interests or role models. Whether >> or not Snape and/or Draco end up on the side of the light, >> they're STILL not good romantic interests or role models. > Merry Kinsella wrote: > You know, really good point, and I kind of missed it > myself when JKR said it. Snape could well be on the > side of good without being a healthy or viable > romantic interest at this point. Thanks. At this point, I'm counting on that being the case. ;-) > Anyhow, the "love story" that mosts interests me where > Snape is concerned is what I perceive to be his > platonic love with Dumbledore. Possibly the only > healthy experience of love in his life, and a mere > first step toward any other kind. Sort of a parental > need fulfilled, late in life. You know, that's interesting, because the "Snape was loved, Voldemort wasn't, Snape's somewhat more culpable" interview bit had me going in the direction of mother-love and infant development/caregiver bond: Severus had it, Tom didn't. But one COULD interpret it differently, as, "Dumbledore loved Snape and Snape killed him," whereas, since no one ever loved Voldemort, he COULDN'T kill the person who loved him. I really don't think this is where it's going, but it's a thought. > Even though, when I read some comments about Snape the > Byronic, brooding hero who needs somebody to convince > him he can be loved romantically, I think on Snape, > who had no trouble telling Hermione he "saw no > difference" when her teeth grew to her collarbones, > even though Snape himself is no oil painting. When I > consider the myriad romantic Snape fanon out there, I > sometimes think about some noble woman patiently > engaging Snape and convincing him she loves him, only > to have him say "No thanks." And mean it. Not > because he feels unworthy, or can't trust. But > because whoever it is doesn't meet his standards. Snape isn't just inherently unattractive. The "greasy hair" bit we have been interminably reminded of is an indicator, IMO, that he truly and emphatically disdains physical vanity. (We are not told that his inattention to his toilette extends to smelling.) That "I see no difference" crack is, I think, incredibly spiteful and inappropriate on Snape's part, but it's like he's playing to the Slytherin crowd. I also wonder if there is an element of self-loathing there, in that he may see Hermione's teeth as he sees his own hooked nose: something that shouldn't matter but still does. In that case, part of his impetus for saying what he does may be a leaning in the direction that looks don't matter. But it's gone way beyond appearance: Hermione isn't even going to be able to feed herself. At least Snape doesn't try to prevent Hermione from leaving and going to Madame Pomfrey. It is interesting that Hermione takes advantage of the situation to have her teeth more (or less, I should say) than restored to their original state. It makes me just a hair less sympathetic. Not that she shouldn't have taken advantage; but she wasn't so crushed by the incident that she let the chance go by, either; good for her! > I always think it would be really something - but > awfully likely - for somebody to see the romantic > potential in Snape and have him shoot her down because > she doesn't cut it for him. That's not something that > crosses the minds of a lot of romantics who have > targeted Snape for emotional rescue or sexual healing. I can easily imagine Snape's eyes glittering at some romantically- inclined female, attractive or not, just before he opens his mouth to let something truly scornful (but possibly subtle enough to pass for "No, thanks") fall out. People keep talking about his "bad boy" allure, but I think there's something else going on: Snape would have to be grateful, wouldn't he, to any woman who'd have him? He couldn't possibly be a rejection-risk. Heh, heh. Yeah, right. JKR said something like, "Who would want Snape in love with them?" as if the notion gave her the willies--and it's possible that she is speaking for Snape as well as herself. We have seen so little of the man behind the mask that the idea of loving him is ludicrous, IMO. (Another alluring quality: he is soooo mysterious; anything hidden that thoroughly MUST be worth having, right?) And we have no idea what kind of woman would appeal to him, except that I suspect he'd value competence, creativity, courage, and honesty, from the glimpses we may have gotten of his true character. (I can certainly imagine him having yearned after Lily, based on these.) Sandy aka msbeadsley From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 29 20:39:00 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:39:00 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat: Weasley Courage (Was Re: Dolores Umbridge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > > It's also distinctly possible that we're going to learn things > about the Sorting Hat that affect our view of its decisions. > In other words, if the Sorting Hat isn't "really" sorting > people into houses based on their true nature, but is instead > sorting them based on demeanor, their own desires, whim, > random chance, etc., then it may be that Percy was sorted into > Gryffindor because -- like Harry -- he simply *asked* to be put > in Gryffindor... not because he's the most suited to it. Is > Hermione really better suited to Gryffindor than Ravenclaw? > She's at least as clever as she is brave, after all... Hickengruendler: Harry never asked to be put in Gryffindor. He just asked the Sorting Hat not to put him in Slytherin. The Sorting Hat than decided to put him in Gryffindor, because it was the house that fittet him best besides Slytherin. (And probably even better than Slytherin itself, too.) If the whole Sorting was all about asking the students where they want to go, than the Hat should have offered Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw as alternatives as well, but it didn't. I do think that when characters have strong abilities from more than one house, the decision of the characters where they want to be in plays a part. [And it could have been the case with Percy in this case. I would call him brave, ambitious, clever (well, book-smart) and hard- working.] But this can't be all of it. After all, the founders also took their students by their abilities, and not by where the students wanted to go. And if it are parts of their brains that live on in the Hat, than the Hat should somehow follow this direction as well. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 20:50:23 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:50:23 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <63378ee7050828233917dde37f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139038 Lady Indigo wrote: > If it were up to me I simply would not let Snape think badly of > me once I realized where he was coming from - and while it's from > a very angry, bitter place it's also easy to see a great deal of > what drives him. I'd have persisted in getting a very humble, > respectful moment alone with him, written a letter, asked for > advice from Dumbledore, anything. It's my own damn fault I was poking around in > his magical diary, after all. > Alla: I believe that the fact that Harry indeed felt pity for Snape was actually close to the miracle, considering how badly Snape treated Harry during those five years. I don't believe that Harry could magically let the hatred go,, especially after Snape did not give him any chance to say anything. The only thing I know is that I am very happy that JKR did not do the route many fanfiction writers suggested and made Harry humbly beg Snape's forgiveness, growl at his feet for looking in his Pensieve ( was it Nora who said it first?) It suggests to me that the possibility that Snape deliberately left out the Pensieve for Harry to see may still be vialble one OR simply that in Harry/Snape interactions Harry's train of thought will be on the right track. JMO of course. Come to think of it, we debated a lot on why Harry did not thank Snape for saving his life in PS/SS. I used to hold POV that Harry was simply too young to thank the teacher who basically verbally attacked him on the first leson ( IMO), but now I think that it could be a hint that Snape had quite a selfish motivation to save Harry's life and in JKR's mind Harry should not thank him for it. I mean not that Harry would be aware of it of course, so it would still go against politeness rules, but maybe JKR would not want him to do it for the reasons known to her only. Just me of course, Alla. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 21:13:38 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:13:38 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139039 lady.indigo at g... wrote: > the *first thing* Harry should have > done was gone > to Snape and both > apologized about poking into his >very private > things Why should he do that when Snape didn't apologize for poking into Harry's very private things; and if he had apologized he'd really feel like a horse's rear end now when he discovered that the man he had apologized to was the murderer of the greatest and kindest wizard of the age. > and said "What my father > did was unforgiveable You can't apologize for what somebody else did, or maybe Harry should apologize for existing, or at least for being his father's son. Any sympathy I had for Snape when I first read of that bulling incident had largely evaporated by the end of book 5, even after all the hell Harry went through and it was obvious he was in a deep depression Snape couldn't resist tormenting Harry a little more. By the end of book 6 I felt that James was far too easy on Snape, hanging him upside-down was not nearly good enough, he deserved more, much more, I wish he'd disemboweled him. Eggplant From samwisep at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 21:15:20 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:15:20 -0000 Subject: Dolores Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139040 I forgot to include in my message what I would like to have happen to her. Since she hates half-breeds so much, I think an ironic and fitting punishment would be for ol'Fenrir to bite her...thus making her what she hates the most. Snapeo'phile From RoxyElliot at aol.com Mon Aug 29 21:37:20 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:37:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley Courage (Was Re: Dolores Umbridge) Message-ID: <13d.1a610e05.3044da10@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139042 <> I didn't trash Percy, but I'm going to respond to some of this post. Percy is actually one of my favorite characters. He's a wonderful foil to the twins and in the earlier books his heart is in the right place. But Percy didn't just make a choice that was objectionable to his family. He made a choice to do what was easy rather than what was right. In the Potterverse that's a big part of what seems to define a character, especially in the last two books. <> I don't think that justifies Percy's actions in the least. Deep down he probably knew it to be the truth. Otherwise why shut his family out so completely? Percy is a smart talented guy, but to get such a promotion at so young an age suggests that it wasn't about his smarts or talents. <> Percy wasn't going back to see his family. He went to help his boss have a minute or two alone with Harry. Worse still he was willing to manipulate his family's emotions in order to do it. That's not courage. That doesn't even come close to courage. <> Percy was a top student, and head boy at school. He now, at under 25, holds a top position in the Ministry of Magic. He is not an Everyman. Again, I like Percy. I have faith that in the end he'll finally do what's right. But he hasn't shown much bravery in books 5 or 6. He's shown more loyalty to his own ambition than anyone else. Percy has left behind the values he was raised with, but I think Redemption will come for him in the end. CGG http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 21:57:57 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:57:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <20050829155725.824.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139043 Merry Kinsella wrote: > You know, really good point, and I kind of missed it > myself when JKR said it. Snape could well be on the > side of good without being a healthy or viable > romantic interest at this point. Ceridwen: I never thought of that either (thx, MsBeadsley!). Putting that together with what someone else said farther back, maybe JKR is speaking *as of the moment* with the characters, and not as how they'll end up. Interesting take. > Merry: > Anyhow, the "love story" that mosts interests me where > Snape is concerned is what I perceive to be his > platonic love with Dumbledore. Possibly the only > healthy experience of love in his life, and a mere > first step toward any other kind. Sort of a parental > need fulfilled, late in life. Ceridwen: Yes. Not all love is either romantic or familial. Friends love each other without wanting sex; students love teachers/mentors, mentors love their students, almost as children and parents, but at some remove on one level, a bit closer on another. Different functions: friends v. family, mentor v. parents, so a slightly different relationship, but still love. > Merry: > *(snip)* When I > consider the myriad romantic Snape fanon out there, I > sometimes think about some noble woman patiently > engaging Snape and convincing him she loves him, only > to have him say "No thanks." And mean it. Not > because he feels unworthy, or can't trust. But > because whoever it is doesn't meet his standards. Ceridwen: Reminds me of a story I read in a New Agey sort of self help book: the guy kept on rejecting women because they weren't good enough, didn't meet his standards. Finally found a woman he thought was good enough. He made overtures, but she rejected him. He wasn't up to *her* standards. Which of course gets the flights of fanfic fantasy going: did Snape (or anyone in the series - Sirius, Narcissa [rejecting Snape?]...) reject someone they thought to be inferior, only to change their mind later on, when it was too late? If I had been shot down like that, I think I could find that a comforting thought on a cold night. Ceridwen, who likes romance, but can definitely get too much of it. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 29 22:00:30 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:00:30 -0000 Subject: Quote Quest (was Re: The graveyard at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139044 Potioncat: > Not in response to any one poster, but in reaction to the thread in > general. I cannot find the quotes which 1) I know I read and 2) I've > seen summaries of. It's driving me crazy! (As you can see, it doesn't > take much.) > > Can anyone take a look to see if they can find a JKR quote, made > about the time HBP came out, saying that the Hogwarts graveyard was > a fandom myth? Jen: OK, now I'm crazy too. I remember reading that and the closest I can come is the information below at Madam Scoops. It's a summary of a quote that was supposedly asked by one of the cub reporters or the contest winner Owen Jones, but I can't find the actual question in either of those interview transcripts. The only thing I can think of is maybe the transcripts at CBBC and the other link give at Madam Scoops are not complete (?). Here's the summary quote and link to Madam Scoop's: When asked about the graveyard, Jo seems a bit thrown and says "Where is the Hogwarts graveyard? They're making up features now." http://www.madamscoop.org/bydate-2005.htm#top If the link doesn't work, I found it by going to the main page, clicking on 'Listed by Date" then '2005' then 'July'. Jen From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 29 22:28:27 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:28:27 -0000 Subject: Quote Quest (was Re: The graveyard at Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139045 The 'rumour' about the graveyard arose because this exchange is found on the Prisoner of Azkaban DVD Extras (in the presence of JKR): Alfonso Cuaron: 'We needed a place where the kids could see the execution of Buckbeak, and we thought about having a graveyard. And we consulted Jo about it and she said "No, the graveyard is not there," and I said "Why?" And then she gave me the whole explanation of why the graveyard cannot be there, because it's in a different place of the castle. Because it's going to play...and she knows her thing, she knows exactly what's going to happen later.' I suppose the real reason that Cuaron couldn't have the graveyard he wanted is because no-one had been laid to rest at Hogwarts before (as it says in HBP), not that the graveyard was 'somewhere else'. Perhaps JKR didn't give Cuaron the whole story and forgot about it. Or Cuaron was deliberately muddling so no-one would accuse him of giving secrets away. A whole graveyard mythology springs up, and JKR has no idea where from! She did say in the Owen Jones ITV interview that she was confused about it and how it is made up! This is also not the first time JKR has found comments she made come back and puzzle her - remember Icicle? That was a girl's 'name' in a webchat and JKR commented on it and said she would put it in her book - obviously she forgot about it straight away and then couldn't undertand why so many people insisted there would be a character called Icicle! JLV xx (Who is glad no-one records and combs over eveything she says all the time!) From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 22:29:37 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:29:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <20050829021726.38043.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139046 Merry Kinsella: > It's like Harry isn't paying attention to the Snape > in front of him, but to the Snape in his mind. When did Harry > become so DETERMINED to hate Snape so ferociously? Could it have been after 4 years of studied insults, abuse, and injustice towards himself, his friends, and his father? Or perhaps after Snape tried to arrange to have the souls of two innocent men destroyed? Harry's view of Snape may or may not be correct, but "the Snape in front of him" has done plenty to earn Harry's hatred, Dumbledore's man or not. Amiable Dorsai From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 22:35:26 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:35:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power (was:Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139047 > >>Pippin: > > I mean, Harry thinks Snape hates him and needles him because > > Snape believes that Harry is a weak and unworthy wizard. That's > > what makes it hurt so much -- because Harry is afraid in his > > heart that this is true. But OFH!Snape can't believe this; after > > all he's only keeping Harry alive because Harry is the Chosen > > One, right? So Harry has to be wrong. And we're back to > > OscarWinner!Snape, too. > >>JenR.: > Every once in awhile something rings completely true, and > this is a big one Pippin. We never hear Harry actually think this > to himself, but HBP made it clear Harry doesn't feel he's up for > the task of the Chosen One. He started dabbling in Dark arts, and > acted out that charade in Slughorn's classroom. He's trying to > feel powerful by co-opting strategies from other people because he > saw Dumbledore and Voldemort fighting and KNOWS he's not a wizard > equal to Voldemort in the traditional sense. Betsy Hp: I love this! It's absolutely true and I think it's something Snape has been pointing out to Harry (in his own nasty way) from the moment Harry showed up at Hogwarts. That whole potions quiz and the "celeberty" dig went straight to what has bothered Harry from the moment he's first told he's a wizard. (Doesn't he fear that the Hogwarts invite will be taken from him at some point in SS/PS?) In some way I think this goes towards Snape as one segment of Harry's father figures. Snape is excruciatingly honest when it comes to assessing Harry's abilities. And Harry hates him for it because he agrees with him. (I think that's part of the reason he was so angry with Ron and Hermione when they first suggested him teaching everyone DADA. He knows his own limitations.) I think Harry is good enough at DADA to recognize how much he has to learn. And I think he's good enough to realize he will never reach Voldemort's level (or Dumbledore's or even Snape's for that matter) anytime soon. Which puts that much more pressure on the poor kid, since he's the one who's supposed to be taking the big bad down. > >>Jen Reese: > Dumbledore keeps trying to reinforce to him it's not power that > will defeat Voldemort, it's something only Harry can do. Like > retrieving the memory from Slughorn but on a giant scale! I loved > how good Harry felt about retrieving that memory, how he rushed to > Dumbledore's office to share it with him the minute he learned DD > was around. Maybe Harry will finally believe Dumbeldore in Book 7 > and stop trying to be someone he's not. Betsy Hp: It was very interesting to me that both Ron and Hermione predicted that Dumbledore's private lessons with Harry would be all about turning Harry into this badass wizard with super DADA skills. Even his best friends, who know him better than anyone, think he'll have to duel Voldemort to the death. And yet, Dumbledore went an entirely different direction. He shared information that actually got Harry *empathizing* with Tom Riddle. He set Harry a task that asked Harry to relate enough to another person that he was able to get highly personal and shameful information out of them. It's a completely different direction and I agree that it does play to Harry's strengths. Strengths I'm not sure Harry even realizes he has (though by the end of HBP I think he started to). When he puts in an effort, Harry can be surprisingly insightful. Dumbledore seemed to be encouraging that talent. It will be interesting to see where Harry takes it in book 7. Betsy Hp From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Aug 29 23:07:27 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:07:27 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: <4312EF98.2070809@me.chalmers.se> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139048 Fabian: > ... is the Latin language, as well as English. > Just think about it, the entire Magic community, > has not had more teachings in the English language > than a 11 year old schoolkid.If they at least > learned latin, then Harry wouldn't have to wonder > what a spell like "levicorpus" does, > and it could also be easier to invent new ones. houyhnhnm: Absolutely. How can anyone read all the really old books in the restricted section? It's all that Muggle-loving decadence. Latin dropped from the curriculum, young witches and wizards wearing blue jeans, using Muggle slang, saying "Yeah". It's no wonder some people initially went over to LV's side. What really bothers me, though, is the absence of art and music. Sure, Hogwarts is full of paintings. Who painted them? You never see anyone in the Potterverse actually creating art. There's the odd reference to a flute or harp or Weird Sisters, but music doesn't really seem to be part of their lives. No poetry (except for doggerel on a valentine). All they care about is quidditch. Meatheads! [/irony] From muellem at bc.edu Mon Aug 29 23:21:25 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:21:25 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > houyhnhnm: > > What really bothers me, though, is the absence of art and music. > Sure, Hogwarts is full of paintings. Who painted them? You never see > anyone in the Potterverse actually creating art. There's the odd > reference to a flute or harp or Weird Sisters, but music doesn't > really seem to be part of their lives. No poetry (except for doggerel > on a valentine). All they care about is quidditch. Meatheads! > [/irony] Thank God!! I was also bothered that they don't teach that stuff - I initially thought, well maybe there is a college or something for art/music/literature, but JKL states that there is no universities in the WW. So, I guess they must learn it by the seat of their pants - makes me wonder how good their journalistic skils are if there are no classes for journalism. That could explain a lot about the 2 Wizard papers we know about...no journalistic integrity there. LOL I guess Hogwarts is just to get those Wizarding skills down and every thing else is higher learning(on your own or a muggle college). Also, on the physical education side, I never read about a Wizard/Witch jogging, running, working out - yet, not all Wizards/Witches are big huge lumps of fat with no muscle tone. I wonder if there is there a spell for weight-loss and keeping in shape? colebiancardi (who believes one does need art in their life to truly appreciate life's beauty) From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 29 23:31:42 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:31:42 -0000 Subject: Did Snape learn from Lily and James? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139050 I had a thought while rereading HBP and wanted to share comments from everyone - apologies if this theory has already been put forward as I am a little behind with the posts. When it is revealed that the HBP is Snape, it first appears that he was a gifted potions student and spell-crafter from the scribbled notes in the potions text book. However it occurred to me that maybe Snape was actually writing these tips and spells in his text book because he was learning and copying them from other students - namely Lily and James Potter. The canon for this is firstly we know that Lily was a gifted potions student from what Slughorn informs Harry. We also know that Snape was in the same classes - so maybe he just wrote down everything that Lily did during their classes which deviated and improved from the text book instructions. This fits with Snape's character as he seems very ambitious and competitive, and would of course claim credit for himself if he could. We also know that the spell 'Levicorpus' which Harry found written in his textbook, was performed by James Potter on Snape as seen by Harry in the pensieve in book 5. So perhaps Snape scribbled down this jinx in his potions text book after he had been a victim of it, in case it came in handy for him later? In other words its possible that the tips and spells Harry is learning from the HBP text book in fact originated from his parents talents, and that Snape just copied them down and learnt from them himself, but of course would never admit it. Again this may have already been discussed and I just missed seeing the posts, so do correct me if this is the case. Auria From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 29 23:38:12 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:38:12 -0000 Subject: Dolores Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139051 "suehpfan1" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fabian Peng K?rrholm > wrote: > > Samantha wrote: > > > Now that it is obvious nothing is going to be done about all the > > > cruel and malicious things Umbridge did while at Hogwarts, what > > > would you like to see happen to her now? What would be justice? As Umbridge is the ambitious power-hungry type, I'd like to see her be expelled from the MoM and made to assist the house-elves cleaning and running the Hogwarts kitchens while wearing grubby teatowels as clothes.... Oh, and for added measure, she can assist Hagrid with his Care of Magical Creatures lesson on Centaurs :-) Auria From merylanna at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 21:01:32 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050829210132.88285.qmail@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139052 --- msbeadsley wrote: I can easily imagine Snape's eyes glittering at some romantically- inclined female, attractive or not, just before he opens his mouth to let something truly scornful (but possibly subtle enough to pass for "No, thanks") fall out. People keep talking about his "bad boy" allure, but I think there's something else going on: Snape would have to be grateful, wouldn't he, to any woman who'd have him? He couldn't possibly be a rejection-risk. Heh, heh. Yeah, right.<<< Yes, yes, yes. And by having him reject someone, I don't mean the romantic notion of "doesn't want to get hurt" "doesn't trust" but truly - not interested. It happens in life that seemingly obvious targets for romantic rescue or seeming-diamonds-in-the-rough who need the "right woman" or "right man" genuinely have no interest in what's offered. That has got to be mortifying, and I that's something I don't think is considered enough with Snape. As for being inherently unattractive - (responding to something you've snipped) I'm of two minds. Part of me remembers how he was in the penseive - nose less than half an inch from the parchment, writing more than a foot than his nearest neighbor - I think of Spinner's End completely covered in books - and I think of someone like the cliche of Einstein - can't put his own pants on right-ways, forgets to eat, forgets to light a fire, etc. - the sparten routine isn't about not being attractive, but being too absorbed in something else to pay attention to anything else. OTOH, JKR really works overtime letting us know Snape is not cute. The scrawny body. The yellowing teeth. The spittle at the corners of the mouth (maybe I'm misremembering that). She's not just describing somebody who needs a shampoo and some fresh air. I don't think. Merylanna. From midnightowl6 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 29 21:47:21 2005 From: midnightowl6 at hotmail.com (P J) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:47:21 -0400 Subject: Weasley Courage (Was Re: Dolores Umbridge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139053 Saturniia: >Going back to your family's home for Christmas >dinner, a year and a half after you moves out, and staying through >the meal when only your mother welcomes you and the rest of your >family either ignores you or is hostile to you is courageous. "You must forgive this intrusion," he said when Mrs. Weasley looked around at him, beaming and wiping her eyes. "Percy and I were in the vicinity -- working, you know -- and he couldn't resist dropping in and seeing you all." But Percy showed no sign of wanting to greet any of the rest of the family. He stood, polker-straight and awkward-looking, and stared over everybody else's heads. (page 341 Scholastic version) I guess I didn't read this quite the way you did. Instead, what I saw was Percy putting aside his principles to further his career one more time. The Minister, determined to do an end run around DD and talk to Harry, knew Harry was at the Weazley's home and used Percy (as well as his family) to get to him. And Percy allowed it. I don't see that as courageous at all... I see it as being rather a boot licker. >Tossing parsnips at one's sibling at Christmas dinner? Not quite as brave. No, maybe not. But at least it was honest. PJ From lady.indigo at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 22:36:12 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:36:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee7050828233917dde37f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee705082915361c37d2a6@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139054 On 8/29/05, dumbledore11214 wrote: > > The only thing I know is that I am very happy that JKR did not do > the route many fanfiction writers suggested and made Harry humbly > beg Snape's forgiveness, growl at his feet for looking in his > Pensieve ( was it Nora who said it first?) I'm not asking for a complete disintegration of self here, and definitely not for Harry to forget the ills that were done to him. I'm saying that if Harry found the maturity to pity him then he could have *possibly* seen the sense in making an overture of respect towards the fact that, at least concerning Harry's father, *Snape was right*. Whether or not Snape accepted that gesture, and I'm far from sure that he would, it doesn't matter. Harry would have tried in a moment that couldn't be excused as the embarassment of getting caught, would have been sincere in that apology. And Snape quite possibly would have remembered it, whether or not he would have treated it like what it was. It suggests to me that the possibility that Snape deliberately left > out the Pensieve for Harry to see may still be vialble one OR simply > that in Harry/Snape interactions Harry's train of thought will be > on the right track. JMO of course. And what evidence do we have of that? Unless we've got another case of Snape as a brilliant actor with a grand manipulation going on in the background, of course. Come to think of it, we debated a lot on why Harry did not thank > Snape for saving his life in PS/SS. I used to hold POV that Harry > was simply too young to thank the teacher who basically verbally > attacked him on the first leson ( IMO), but now I think that it > could be a hint that Snape had quite a selfish motivation to save > Harry's life and in JKR's mind Harry should not thank him for it. > > I mean not that Harry would be aware of it of course, so it would > still go against politeness rules, but maybe JKR would not want him > to do it for the reasons known to her only. > That doesn't really make sense to me. A character's actions shouldn't reflect what he will know six years in the future, or events he's mistaken about but isn't aware of it, or what his author knows. They reflect who he is and what he knows at the moment, and that's the only way they should be taken, at least if you hope for realism. On 8/29/05, eggplant107 wrote: >Why should he do that when Snape didn't apologize for poking into >Harry's very private things; and if he had apologized he'd really feel >like a horse's rear end now when he discovered that the man he had >apologized to was the murderer of the greatest and kindest wizard of >the age. Because while Snape's teaching methods were extremely probing and a touch sadistic (keeping in touch with his usual modus operandi there), they WERE devised to teach Harry while he was in a position of authority. He had far more grounds to do so, though I don't dismiss the subtle abuse there at all. And if Snape abused that, then yes, he should have apologized for it. There's a lot that Snape has to apologize and account for, but right now I believe he's emotionally stunted among other things and is not in the position to even think clearly enough to do so. Harry has a lot of anger and a lot of pain himself, but he by all accounts is more emotionally healthy than Snape is. He needs to take the high road. Dumbledore put them together in hopes that *someone* would, and for you to excuse Harry is advocating his immaturity just as much as you seem to think I advocate Snape's. See above for how I'm certainly not excusing Harry based on whatever YOU think Snape's motives were in Book 6. > You can't apologize for what somebody else did, Harry can most certainly apologize for defending and sanctifying a man who seemed to demonstrate just how cruel children can be at a time that he was FAR too old to 'not know any better'. >or maybe Harry should >apologize for existing, or at least for being his father's son. Please note that I suggested nothing of the kind and asked only that Harry point out to Snape that he is NOT his father. >Any >sympathy I had for Snape when I first read of that bulling incident >had largely evaporated by the end of book 5, even after all the hell >Harry went through and it was obvious he was in a deep depression >Snape couldn't resist tormenting Harry a little more. Snape is an emotionally adolescent, sour, bitter, cruel, sadistic man. I have never denied this. I can overlook - not EXCUSE, but OVERLOOK - his actions based on the fact that this is typical Snape and I think it's going to take a good long time and a lot of support from unexpected places for him to move beyond this. Harry, on the other hand, IS an adolescent, angry, reckless, and bitter in certain regards...but he's also got a lot of praise, love, and until the end of Book 6 some fantastic advice. In the form of people like Skeeter, Lockhart, and Slughorn he's also got an *excess* of attention. Forgive me if I can't be as understanding about The Hero of Our Story, the one who it's all about, failing to realize or maybe failing to care that Snape's lessons were important, Snape himself (as far as he knew) was valuable to the Order, and some respect in the appropriate places might make dealing with the man a little more pleasant. I'm not even expecting the apology to come in Book 5, when Harry was unfit for it, but in Book 6 he decided to blame Snape for Sirius, hate him for every little thing, and mouth off to him (which certainly couldn't have helped in seperating him from his father) - a lot of it before he even factored Snape into his suspicions. Harry's moving further and further towards the Dark Side of the Force through his hate, and I'm surprised at how few people in both camps see that. By the end of >book 6 I felt that James was far too easy on Snape, hanging him >upside-down was not nearly good enough, he deserved more, much more, I >wish he'd disemboweled him. Yes, of course Snape should have been killed a few decades before he could supposedly murder Dumbledore, an action that had ambiguities you seem to be completely ignoring. Would you like us to take the next step and murder infants for their future crimes, too? Snape was publicly humiliated and arguably sexually harassed when he was minding his own business. This was not the first time, and later a few of these bullies would try to kill/severely injure him for a laugh. If you don't think that contributed to who he was in the future, I'm shocked. - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 22:38:31 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:38:31 -0000 Subject: Weasley Courage In-Reply-To: <13d.1a610e05.3044da10@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139055 CGG wrote: "But Percy didn't just make a choice that was objectionable to his family. He made a choice to do what was easy rather than what was right. In the Potterverse that's a big part of what seems to define a character, especially in the last two books. " Del replies: I disagree. I really don't think that abandoning his family, particularly his mother, was an easy choice for Percy. And it is very possible that he did what he thought was right. So IMO there's a strong possibilitiy that he DID do what was right instead of what was easy. CGG wrote, about the fact that Arthur insulted Percy first: "I don't think that justifies Percy's actions in the least. Deep down he probably knew it to be the truth. Otherwise why shut his family out so completely?" Del replies: That's quite a leap to make, IMO. It seems just as logical to me that Percy would shut his family out if he thought they were supporting terrorism, active undermining of and opposition to the legal and rightful government. Look at it this way: if your family told you that your government is hiding the fact that Bin Laden is in your country, busy putting up a massive terrorist attack, and the government not only won't do anything to stop him but they actually actively fight anyone trying to expose him, how would you react? And if they then told you that you are being completely manipulated by the government to spy on your family, what would you do? Percy did a very logical thing IMO: he distanced himself from people that he deemed to be completely wacko and even dangerous, people whose motives he couldn't fathom but who were taking very affirmative actions nonetheless, like spying on the government and trying to sap its authority. CGG wrote: "Percy is a smart talented guy, but to get such a promotion at so young an age suggests that it wasn't about his smarts or talents." Del replies: I disagree. Percy showed extreme capacities during GoF. He was just a newbie, but he filled in very well for Crouch. We don't hear that anything went wrong in their department because Percy handled it alone. And this is a department that regularly corresponds with foreign wizards, which makes it even more impressive that Percy managed it so well. As for those who say that Percy "failed" to notice that Crouch was not acting normally, I disagree again. Percy *could not* determine whether Crouch was acting normally or not, because he *did not know* what Crouch looked like when normally under extreme stress, as he was supposed to be because of the TWT following right after the QWC. Crouch was put under the Imperius Curse very shortly after Percy started working with him, and the symptoms came gradually, so it is very logical that Percy simply assumed Crouch was cracking under stress. Morever, as a total newbie, Percy was the *last* person who should denounce Crouch's behaviour as abnormal, he simply didn't have the authority to do so. No, IMO, it's *everyone else* (starting with Fudge, Umbridge, Bagman, and yes, even Arthur) at the Ministry who should have noticed the strange behaviour of Crouch, but not Percy. CGG wrote: "Percy has left behind the values he was raised with" Del replies: I totally disagree. Percy in fact acted completely in line with the values HE was raised with. Percy was ever only ONE thing in the Weasley dynamics: the smart kid who was going to go his dad's way, at the Ministry. He was always encouraged to stick with whatever authority figure he was working under, it was drilled into his head that working at the Ministry was the ultimate destiny one could aspire to, he was systematically encourage to be the Good Boy, the one who follows orders and supports authority *without thinking or criticising*. Well, that's exactly what he did. JMO, of course. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 22:03:29 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:03:29 -0000 Subject: Peter is *nothing* like Neville (was :Harry's story , NOT Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082908375f946702@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139056 Lady Indigo wrote: "I've never questioned why Peter did it, because as far as I know that was answered for me. Peter was a follower, probably very insecure, felt a lot weaker than his friends as much as he adored them, and when threatened by Voldemort he joined up out of cowardice and a need to be protected rather than do the right thing and sacrifice himself. He's a Neville who went wrong, in a sense." Del replies: Wow wow wow :-) ! You can say whatever you want about Snape or Peter, I really don't care, but don't you go abusing my dear Neville like that :-)! There is NOTHING, and NEVER was anything, in common between Peter and Neville, as far as their character goes, and I will not let anyone compare despicable Peter to courageous Neville :-) (Don't get offended by the capslock words, they are just here to make my point clear, not because I'm shouting at you or trying to put you down or anything, OK :-) ? ) Neville has ALWAYS shown a great strength of character. He stood up to the Trio in PS/SS when he thought they were about to do something wrong. He has never done, or even said, anything unpleasant to anyone throughout the series. He's always quietly defended what he thinks is right. He's NEVER EVER licked any boot just to get a friend or a protector. He's always been deeply loyal to Harry even when almost nobody else believed Harry. He was willing to risk another Crucio or even an AK to protect Harry's Prophecy. He showed up right away when Hermione activated the enchanted Galleons at the end of HBP and joined the battle against the DEs. And so forth and so on. There's no way I can picture Neville almost wetting his pants with excitement at the spectacle of anyone abusing anyone else, like we saw Peter do. I can't picture him drool with admiration as someone is showing off. I can't picture him compromising his values to fit in a group. I can't picture him grovelling in the dust to save his life. And he has already proven that he WILL NOT put his own life above what is right, and that he WILL sacrifice his own life to save his friends' life, the *very thing* that Peter was unable to do and that led him to betrayal. Neville is, and has always been, right from Day One, a True Gryffindor, courageous, chivalrous, fair, Knight of the Light, through and through. Something that Peter never was. If the Potters had had Neville as their Secret-Keeper instead of Peter, I'm sure they would still be safe to this day. JMO, of course :-) Del From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Aug 29 23:50:59 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:50:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's dream in PS/SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139057 I haven't noticed this brought up since HBP, so... Considering what we now know about Snape, Draco Malfoy, and Horcruxes, what does everyone make of the dream Harry had his first night at Hogwarts? It seems like one of those passages we should be able to dig through for clues, but I can't think of any theories this could lend itself to. It hardly seems like something that JKR would put in just to show Harry's distress. (PS, page 130) "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully - and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking. "He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he didn't remember the dream at all." (end quote) Christina From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 00:12:14 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:12:14 -0000 Subject: "And he shall have power the Dark Lord knows not...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139058 > digger: > > 'Hark who's talking' is a commonplace phrase in British English. > > Using the work 'Hark!' on its own, or as an exclamation, is pretty > much > > obsolote though. > > Geoff: > "Hark who's talking" is indeed a common expression - I use it > myself. It suggests that the speaker isn't really in a position to > comment because they have said or done something similar. It's along > the same lines as "the pot calling the kettle black". Interesting. Learn something new every day. I got the meaning by context but the word itself really threw me for a loop. > > My apologies, I was completely thrown by the earlier post. It was the > reference to Christmas carols ("Hark, the herald angels sing") which > put me onto the wrong train of thought. "Hark", in that context is, > as Digger rightly says, obsolete and archaic. Sorry, that was me being confused. Hark the Herald angels sing is practically the only context I have ever heard that word used before. It just struck me as incredibly archaic. I had no idea that was in common usage at all. Its almost like Brits and Americans speak entirely different versions of english :) phoenixgod2000 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 00:19:56 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:19:56 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082915361c37d2a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139059 Alla wrote earlier: > It suggests to me that the possibility that Snape deliberately left > > out the Pensieve for Harry to see may still be vialble one ... Lady Indigo: > And what evidence do we have of that? Unless we've got another case of Snape > as a brilliant actor with a grand manipulation going on in the background, > of course. Alla: Oh, not much yet, definitely not much, but if one believes in the ESE!Snape or OFH!Snape, this speculation goes in line with general reading of Snape's character. Snape tells Harry flat out - I did not ask for that job. Of course if you support Loyal to DD!Snape, then you would argue that Snape did the job despite general dislike of it. I am arguing that Snape hated teaching Harry so much that he would do anything to get out of it and why don't kill to birds with one stone? Get out of the job abd crash Harry's image of his father right in front of his eyes. The weakest part of this speculation is of course the fact that Snape did not know whether they would be interrupted, but to me it is plausible that Snape would keep doing it - removing the memories till indeed something would happen. Have you noticed how mildly Dumbledore talks about Harry's excursion in the Pensieve before they start their lessons? Granted we don't know whether he talks about Harry's looking in his Pensieve or Snape's? But doesn't he smile? And if DD IS JKR's moral compass in many questions ( whether I agree with it or not), seems like he is not terrible upset with Harry, no? Lady Indigo: > Because while Snape's teaching methods were extremely probing and a touch > sadistic (keeping in touch with his usual modus operandi there), they WERE > devised to teach Harry while he was in a position of authority. He had far > more grounds to do so, though I don't dismiss the subtle abuse there at all. Alla: I am glad we agree on the fact that Snape was abusing Harry during Occlumency lessons. :-) I submit though that we do not know that Snape's teaching methods were designed to Harry anythinbg whatsoever. What we do know though is that Harry was feeling much worse after his Occlumency lesson and while it is possible that it was normal reaction, it is also possible that Snape was delibertely weakening his mental defenses and opening his mind further to Voldemort. Lady Indigo: > Harry can most certainly apologize for defending and sanctifying a man who > seemed to demonstrate just how cruel children can be at a time that he was > FAR too old to 'not know any better'. Alla: Harry was NOT defending James after he saw the pensieve scene, but I do not think he should apologise to Snape for what his father did, especially when we may not know the whole story with Marauders and Snape? You know, there is that "Slytherin gang", whom Snape was running with and who, IMO, was helping Snape a great deal to fight Marauders. That Slytherin gang contained such nice members as dear Bella, whom we know that she is a sadist now and may have been a sadist at much earlier age. Lady Indigo: Forgive me if I can't be as understanding about The Hero of Our > Story, the one who it's all about, failing to realize or maybe failing to > care that Snape's lessons were important, Snape himself (as far as he knew) > was valuable to the Order, and some respect in the appropriate places might > make dealing with the man a little more pleasant. Alla: Sorry if I cannot be as understanding about the man, who especially if he was abused himself, took the road of abusing those who are weaker than him. Who made himself to be Neville's greatest fear, who threatened to poison Neville's pet. Who, it appears, made his purpose in life to make Harry hate him. After HBP I think it is very plausible that it will turn out that Snape's lessons were NOT important, that Snape was sabotaging them and that Snape was not a valuable member for the Order, but someone who was biting his time to see which side is stronger to make his move or something like that. Sigh... Another two years of wait. :-) Lady Indigo: I'm not even expecting the > apology to come in Book 5, when Harry was unfit for it, but in Book 6 he > decided to blame Snape for Sirius, hate him for every little thing, and > mouth off to him (which certainly couldn't have helped in seperating him > from his father) - a lot of it before he even factored Snape into his > suspicions. Alla: IMO, JKR as I read her intentions , which could be wrong of course, disagrees with you. If she wanted Harry to apologise, IMO she would have wrote about it. And doesn't Harry say in the beginning that he decided to blame Snape for Sirius because it was easier to cope or something like that? So, Harry does blame himself and where JKR wants him tot ake a high road, he most certainly does, IMO. Lady Indigo: > Harry's moving further and further towards the Dark Side of the Force > through his hate, and I'm surprised at how few people in both camps see > that. Alla: Harry was being tempted by Dark Art Spells, true, I think he passed the test nicely, but isn't it telling that Half Blood Prince was the one who was seducing him? As to moving to Dark Side in general, I think Dumbledore sums it up really well: "and yet, Harry despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world ( which,incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to have), you have never ben seduced by the Dark Arts, never, even for a second, shown the slightest desire to become one of Voldemort's followers!" "Of course, I haven't" said Harry indignantly. "He killed my mum and dad!" - HBP, p.511 Lady Indigo: >> Snape was publicly humiliated and arguably sexually harassed when he was > minding his own business. Alla: I never understood " the sexual harassment" analogy, frankly, but I understand it even less after HBP. "Oh, that one had a great vogue during my time at Hogwarts," said Lupin reminiscently. "There were a few months in my fifth year when you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle." - HBP, p.336 So, it seems to me that the curse was very widely used. I don't think that JKR would so casually throw there sexual harassment association. Just me of course, Alla. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 30 00:28:24 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:28:24 -0000 Subject: Quote Quest (was Re: The graveyard at Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139060 JLV: A whole graveyard mythology springs up, and JKR > has no idea where from! She did say in the Owen Jones ITV interview > that she was confused about it and how it is made up! Potioncat: So you've seen or read the interview? That's what I'm looking for. I rcall seeing a quick question, a quick "That's fandom" and nothing more. I remember when the Cuaron interview came out and this list came up with all sorts of ideas about the Hogwarts graveyard. I suspected that "the graveyard" was the "GoF graveyard" but that Cuaron wasn't that big a HP fan to realize that. JLV: > This is also not the first time JKR has found comments she made come > back and puzzle her - remember Icicle? That was a girl's 'name' in a > webchat and JKR commented on it and said she would put it in her > book - obviously she forgot about it straight away and then couldn't > undertand why so many people insisted there would be a character > called Icicle! Potioncat: She goes to an interview or a DVD promotion and makes nice conversation on the spot. And we inspect every nuance. So that most of us have actual sections memorized while she has gone on with her life and forgotten the details. > > JLV xx (Who is glad no-one records and combs over eveything she says > all the time!) Potioncat: Me too! From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 00:36:23 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:36:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's remorse (was:ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Whom does Snape REALLY love) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139061 > >>Betsy Hp: > > Then, to his horror, his information is used to fuel > > Voldemort's intense interest in seeing the entire Potter family > > (including his old friend, Lily) slaughtered. > > Snape runs to Dumbledore and tells him everything. > >>Christina: > Another of my long-standing theories! I love this idea- it would > give a lot of weight to Dumbledore's claim that Snape was very > remorseful of his part in what Voldemort was about to do. It is > also a demonstration of Snape trying to right a previous wrong. > I'm in the camp that thinks that Snape is too complex to be simply > all good or all evil (his complexity is what makes him my favorite > character), so I would like to see him give some recognition to > his wrongs. > Betsy Hp: It ties things up rather neatly, doesn't it? And I think it fits into the redemptive arc. I think Snape *realizes* that he's done wrong, and I think that wrong eats at him. (Snape's intense hatred of Black could well mirror Harry's intense hatred of Snape. Both are putting their self-loathing onto an easy target.) I think merely telling Dumbledore of Voldemort's plans isn't enough to assuage Snape's guilt, so I feel like he's been trying to make amends throughout the series. > >>Betsy Hp: > > Snape is heartbroken and swears vengence (or whatever) and > > Dumbledore realizes that he can fully trust Severus Snape. > >>Christina: > > I think what you're suggesting is that Dumbledore could have > taken Snape's reaction to Lily's death as the final seal on his > trust of him, which...I don't know. > > What I *would* have an issue with is if JKR tries to tell us that > Snape turned over to the good side (and that Dumbledore believes > his change of heart) solely over Lily. For the Snape defection to > matter at all, Snape had to realize that Voldemort was doing a > *lot* of bad things to a *lot* of people. If Lily is the conduit > that helps him to see that broader picture, than this whole > scenario works beautifully. > Betsy Hp: Mmm, I was a bit too flippent and gave the wrong impression. I actually agree with you here. Snape's turn against Voldemort *must have* gone beyond the personal for Dumbledore to put him in such a position of trust. I think Snape must have had an epiphany of sorts. A "whatever happens, Voldemort must be stopped" sort of moment where he realizes and probably states to Dumbledore that Voldemort is totally wrong in everything he's trying to accomplish. Lily might be his personal symbol for what is wrong with the world according to Voldemort (just as Dumbledore suggested Cedric Diggory be for the Hogwarts student body), but Snape's turn had to be complete, I think. > >>Christina: > All of that said, I still think that Snape was stewing for a while > before the prophesy incident. I think he fell slowly *into* the > Death Eaters, and came just as slowly back out of them. > Betsy Hp: Absolutely. And I wonder if Lily came to symbolize the path not taken. Not that Snape is still holding this burning torch for her, but that she represented what was good about him and what he chose to reject for the Death Eater way. I picture her view of him as being the niggling doubt that caused him to look more critically at the Death Eater philosophy. (Like how Harry's voice of reason sometimes sounds like Hermione.) > >>Christina: > Someone (sorry I don't remember who it was- ack!) suggested it > might have something to do with Regulus Black. I think Regulus > *is* RAB and was having doubts about his work (as Sirius said) and > shared those doubts with Snape (who developed some similar doubts). Betsy Hp: Or, even if the two of them didn't share their doubts (which would be prudent considering the organization) maybe Regulus' death provided even more impetus to Snape's move away from the Death Eaters. And that would suggest that his disagreement with the Death Eaters went beyond just a "they killed my woman!" kind of change. > >>Betsy Hp: > > Of course, I myself like the idea of Snape in love > > because otherwise what a waste of the sexy. > Christina: > I personally don't think that Adult!Snape was harboring a secret > obsessive passion for Lily (I'm not sure if you do or not, but I've > heard it suggested). > > ...But I totally love you for the "wasting the sexy" comment. I > hate Pining!Snape, but the man *has* got a heart (IMO at least) > underneath all those black robes. And what sexy robes those are. Betsy Hp: Hee! Thanks. I agree, though, that Pining!Snape is a tad too pathetic. Especially since I'm pretty sure Lily was gaga over James for quite some time. (I think JKR means for their love to be oh so true.) I'd much prefer Snape to love someone who could love him right back and for the Lily thing to have been a deep friendship with maybe a bit of crushing on Snape's side. And honestly, if Snape *had* felt this deep obsessive love for Lily I think it would too easily have turned to hate once she married his rival. Which would totally blow the "remorse" theory out of the water, IMO. But Snape *may* have felt he had had a chance with Lily and ruined it himself in fifth year when he turned on her. Again, more of a path not taken than an undying torch sort of thing. (And I do think there is a difference.) Betsy Hp From j.m.clausen at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 29 22:24:06 2005 From: j.m.clausen at sbcglobal.net (Jeanne Clausen) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:24:06 -0000 Subject: Wasn't Anyone Else Disappointed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139062 Richard Jones wrote: > The middle of the book was well, dull compared to the other books. > Of course, things picked up at the end, but all I can say is that a > thought forced itself into my mind while reading the middle of HBP > that never ever occurred to me while reading any of the other five > books ? "when will this be over?" > I had the same experience reading the book, Richard. The first two chapters were great, and I thought the end was the best part of all the books. But I found the middle of the book, where all the action took place in the past, much less compelling than the usual live action. At least I didn't miss any nights of sleep being unable to put the book down, as had occurred with some of the others. At one point in the middle of the book, I even started wondering if JKR had actually written it or if she had hired a ghost writer. The end of the book really got to me, though, especially Dumbledore's funeral and the crying of the phoenix. By the way, I come down on the side that Snape was carrying out Dumbledore's orders and will play a significant role in helping Harry defeat Voldemort in Book 7. I've noted that the titles of all the books refer to things or people that help Harry along the way in his quest, and I expect that the Half Blood Prince will be no different. I've wondered if the "book titles" are not one of JKR's clues in this respect. Jeanne From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 00:44:55 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:44:55 -0000 Subject: Rows in the Forest - what might one reveal about the other. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139063 I am using the clever suggestion of another HP fan (who noted that the HBP row in the forest reminds of the one in PS/SS)to work on here as I try to unravel the subject of the argument between Snape and DD. In PS/SS the argument with Quirrel comes at the height of our suspicions about Snape, we are in no way aware that Quirrel is not just Quirrel, and as for the comment about Loyalty, we take that to mean that Snape is trying to force Loyalty to himself from Quirrel, when in fact he is speaking of his own unfathomable loyalty. This is so cleverly done and so brilliantly misdirecting, why shouldn't JKR use it all over again. ;D So lets assume she does. And lets piece together things we didn't know then with what we may or may not know now. First We didn't know Quirrel was not just Quirrel. He was carrying Voldemort around in his Turban. Can we likewise contemplate that Dumbledore is no longer simply Dumbledore? He has after all taken on one of Voldemorts Horcruxes. Has he, also, chanced to taint himself with Voldemort, in a different way? Secondly we did not know that Snape was trying to stop Quirrel going after the stone. This time we are told that Dumbledore seeks from Snape an investigation in his house. Recently here one of our resident brilliant thinkers sugessted that this does not necessarily mean Slytherin House. Hagrid adds 'in Slytherin' himself to /his/ recollection of the conversation. Clearly, however, from what Hagrid said he only heard DD say Snape should investigate 'his house'. This could as equally mean Spinners End as it could mean Slytherin. Somewhere in HBP we assume from what we know that Snape works for Dumbledore and is watching over Draco, that DD means to ask for Snapes help to find out about the assassin. However the dangers of assuming from what we know are fairly obvious since the first book. We would be wiser to assume that we *don't* know what Snape is doing. Finally we have the question of loyalty. In PS/SS we believe that Snape is a ringleader or a servant of LV looking for loyalty to himself or Voldemort. And here we again assume that Snape saying "Maybe I don't want to do it anymore" and "You take too much for granted" is all about loyalty to Dumbledore. But I think it is not. This part, I am actually quite certain is all about Harry. The very last thing that Harry would think Snape and Dumbledore would be talking about. And the only one subject in HBP that could parrallel the Philosophers stone in PS/SS. Harry is the subject. I am sure. So in light of PS/SS and assuming what we don't know, lets just assume that Snape is actually trying to protect Harry the last thing we'd expect him to be doing in speaking to Dumbledore. But definitely the parrallel of Snapes role in PS/SS. Lets assume also that Dumbledore's plan, which he delayed for so long and always dreaded having to put in to action, has the unfortunate side effect of being subject to a great deal of Voldemorts will and so Dumbledore is like Quirrel (aiding LV's will). And finally lets assume that Dumbledore's order to Snape has nothing to do with the assasination attempts at all, and everything to do with what is to happen in Book Seven, after DD has gone. When Snape asks Quirrel if he's figured out how to get past Fluffy yet, we think that he is using Quirrel to help him get to the stone. If we parrallel this with Snape saying DD takes too much for granted, then we must be seeing here something of Dumbledores plan. My personal take is that DD's strategy for defeating Voldemort is not to work against Voldemorts will but to leave him to it to *even help him achieve it* (since Voldie's habit is usully to destroy himself), which would make Dumbledore similar to Quirrel in the Forest. Snape replies that DD takes to much for granted. In PS/SS Snape says to Quirrel 'You do not want me as your enemy.' Parrallel this to the HBP argument and I think we see a Snape who doesn't want to work against Dumbledore/Harry anymore. He is perhaps saying now the very same thing. (You do not wnat me on the enemies side) I think he believes that he would be more use to Dumbledore helping and teaching Harry, but DD wants him to continue as Harry's enemy. Finally the speech about loyalties. Parrallel this with Investigate your house. Wormtail is in Snapes house, and he is indebted to Harry hence it is an investigation into loyalty. *Peters loyalty ultimately falls on Harry's side of the fence.* So he needs to be protected, and perhaps Dumbledore realises that Pettigrew will not be killed by Voldemort if he's useful, and his use is to spy on Snape. If Snape turns, Pettigrew dies, and along with him one of the key weapons against Voldemort. (this is just speculation but it works for me) So to wrap up. Snape is simply telling DD what he *thinks* is the best course of action. ie I (Snape)should work *with* the boy, he's not up to it alone. Dumbledore disagrees and says that the WW is better served by Snape doing Voldies will. Maybe it is keeping Peter Pettigrew safely in the service of Harry. It could be something else but this seems to fit. Any takers? Valky From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 30 01:08:37 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:08:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: <20050829155725.824.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139064 Merry Kinsella: > Anyhow, the "love story" that mosts interests me where > Snape is concerned is what I perceive to be his > platonic love with Dumbledore. Possibly the only > healthy experience of love in his life, and a mere > first step toward any other kind. Sort of a parental > need fulfilled, late in life. I'm glad to see someone else say this. I think it helps explain why Snape came back to the good side and why he is loyal to Dumbledore. (Not the only reason necessarily.) Snape is also Searching for a Father. The only person who remotely resembles a peer-friend in Snape's life is Lucius Malfoy, who is several years older. Valdemort was also a potential father figure but proved unworthy in some way. It also helps to explain why Snape can't separate Harry from James, when his keen mind should have discerned long ago that they are very different. In one respect they are the same. Dumbledore loves them more. Snape is as jealous of Dumbledore's affection for Harry as he was jealous of Dumbledore's preference for James. I'm no expert, but doesn't Freudian theory say that every son has to "kill" the father. Oedipus!Snape (and like the original, a puppet in the hands of fate.) From lady.indigo at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 01:14:05 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:14:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee705082915361c37d2a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee7050829181471d62533@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139065 On 8/29/05, dumbledore11214 wrote: > > I am arguing that Snape hated teaching Harry so much that he would > do anything to get out of it and why don't kill to birds with one > stone? Get out of the job abd crash Harry's image of his father > right in front of his eyes. This, of course, fits your reading of Snape. I have the feeling that Snape's anger was entirely genuine, that he would rather die than allow Harry to see him in that position. After all, all he ever said directly to Harry about James is that he was arrogant; the rest we learned from other avenues, such as his interactions with Sirius. Unless I'm misremembering certain details, which I well could be, but I still doubt Snape's pride would make him want to broadcast that part of his past to someone he despises. He's probably ashamed of how weak he was, hence his calling Lily a Mudblood when she defended him, and hence his very violent reaction towards Harry when Harry intruded into the Pensieve. Have you noticed how mildly Dumbledore talks about Harry's excursion > in the Pensieve before they start their lessons? > > Granted we don't know whether he talks about Harry's looking in his > Pensieve or Snape's? But doesn't he smile? > > And if DD IS JKR's moral compass in many questions ( whether I agree > with it or not), seems like he is not terrible upset with Harry, no? Dumbledore smiles at the entire 'fiasco' of the lessons, the Pensieve incident included. I think, as far as he's concerned, that he believes Harry and Snape must learn these things on their own. It's that hands off approach that has kept Snape teaching in the school in the first place, after all. Besides, Harry did something far from completely unforgiveable and I don't expect an incredible amount of ire from someone removed from the situation. I just think the decent thing to do is admit you were wrong, which I'll continue to believe whether or not JKR agrees with me. > > Alla: > > I am glad we agree on the fact that Snape was abusing Harry during > Occlumency lessons. :-) I submit though that we do not know that > Snape's teaching methods were designed to Harry anythinbg whatsoever. > > What we do know though is that Harry was feeling much worse after > his Occlumency lesson and while it is possible that it was normal > reaction, it is also possible that Snape was delibertely weakening > his mental defenses and opening his mind further to Voldemort. Quite possibly, but I don't really buy this. I doubt it's that easy to weaken a human mind; certainly Dumbledore would have noticed, as well. And I think Snape's summary of what Occulmancy takes is spot on for the kind of magic it is. Yes, repressing one's emotions is generally bad, but in this context sometimes one has to. I'm reminded of a movie I once saw where they said a perfect liar makes a perfect spy. Altogether, Harry *chose* to react the way he did, Snape's attempts to push him in one direction or the other regardless. Alla: > > Harry was NOT defending James after he saw the pensieve scene, but I > do not think he should apologise to Snape for what his father did, > especially when we may not know the whole story with Marauders and > Snape? You know, there is that "Slytherin gang", whom Snape was > running with and who, IMO, was helping Snape a great deal to fight > Marauders. > > That Slytherin gang contained such nice members as dear Bella, whom > we know that she is a sadist now and may have been a sadist at > much earlier age. I'm referring to before the Pensieve scene, the whole four book span where Harry thought the critiques against his father were unjustified and built the man up in his mind. As far as Snape's gang of Slytherins, I didn't exactly see them springing to his aid during a very public scene. In fact, Snape seemed to be entirely alone, and again alludes to that same thing: "Your father would only fight me when it was four against one." Lupin doesn't claim Snape had vast numbers of friends to back him up when he confirms the memory Harry saw, either. And again, he doesn't necessarily have to apologize FOR James; he can hardly control what his father did. He does have to say 'what my father did was wrong, and you were right about him.' Both of which go without saying. Alla: > > Sorry if I cannot be as understanding about the man, who especially > if he was abused himself, took the road of abusing those who are > weaker than him. > > Who made himself to be Neville's greatest fear, who threatened to > poison Neville's pet. > > Who, it appears, made his purpose in life to make Harry hate him. Have you ever studied the children of child abusers or alcoholics? They very often grow up to do those same things themselves. I doubt the wizarding world has therapy. Again, as I've stated repeatedly, I think Snape is emotionally damaged enough that you can't expect the same things from him that you can expect from Harry. He's in no way had the same support and advantages. I know that right now we're a culture of blame, and I'll definitely say that some of this has come down to Snape's poor choices - I'll never excuse him for going to Voldemort, for instance - but overall he needs a certain amount of understanding. Dumbledore provided this, but one man who has other concerns for fifteen years isn't enough to turn the tide altogether. > > > IMO, JKR as I read her intentions , which could be wrong of course, > disagrees with you. If she wanted Harry to apologise, IMO she would > have wrote about it. I disagree. Harry's thoughts and actions regarding Snape have constantly been influenced by prejudice. This is important, and if she's taking Harry in the direction I think she is then his continuing lack of trust will be relevant in the seventh book, where we've gone beyond apology and it's the abandoning of prejudice - by both men - that will have the significance. And doesn't Harry say in the beginning that he decided to blame > Snape for Sirius because it was easier to cope or something like > that? > > So, Harry does blame himself and where JKR wants him tot ake a high > road, he most certainly does, IMO. I completely understand why Harry blamed Snape, and how that's probably part of his grieving process, and I still don't think it's right of him. It's incredibly colored by bias, very unhealthy for him, and has nothing to do with taking the high road. I could even completely forgive him for this if he at least leveled 'blame' fairly. Didn't Fred and George (who I love, don't get me wrong, but who are morally ambiguous too sometimes) say a few cutting things to Sirius as well? Lady Indigo: > > Harry's moving further and further towards the Dark Side of the > Force > > through his hate, and I'm surprised at how few people in both > camps see > > that. > > Alla: > > Harry was being tempted by Dark Art Spells, true, I think he passed > the test nicely, but isn't it telling that Half Blood Prince was the > one who was seducing him? I think it's telling that Harry was cheating, pretty much pulling a Lockhart no less, yet still saw it as completely unfair that he was being punished and Hermione was angry about it. At age 16. That's a sign of incredible immaturity and some very dark (or Slytherin, or what have you) tendencies. Plus, I don't care who posted a bomb recipe on the Internet. It's whether or not you use it that matters. Especially when you have no idea who was behind it, and used it without knowing what it would do. Sectumsempra or no, I thought the tragic thing behind the Prince's book was that Harry grew to trust those instructions and learned so much from them, could have learned so much from *Snape* (of the benevolent, Potions-related variety, of course), if they both were big enough to listen to each other. As to moving to Dark Side in general, I think Dumbledore sums it up > really well: > > "and yet, Harry despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's > world ( which,incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to > have), you have never ben seduced by the Dark Arts, never, even for > a second, shown the slightest desire to become one of Voldemort's > followers!" > "Of course, I haven't" said Harry indignantly. "He killed my mum and > dad!" - HBP, p.511 And this is definitely not what I meant. Voldemort has nothing to do with it. Umbridge isn't a Death Eater either, but she's a terrible person. Harry's heart, unlike Dumbledore (the pinnacle of goodness), is filled with hatred, resentment, and anger. Much like Snape's, really, and often because of Snape's baiting. This would be dangerous for him even if Voldemort had never existed, on a purely personal level. Lady Indigo: > >> Snape was publicly humiliated and arguably sexually harassed when > he was > > minding his own business. > > > Alla: > > I never understood " the sexual harassment" analogy, frankly, but I > understand it even less after HBP. > > "Oh, that one had a great vogue during my time at Hogwarts," said > Lupin reminiscently. "There were a few months in my fifth year when > you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle." - > HBP, p.336 > So, it seems to me that the curse was very widely used. > > I don't think that JKR would so casually throw there sexual > harassment association. It has nothing to do with JKR's intentions there; often things like that are dismissed, but to me that's what it was. I'm not talking about being dangled upside-down in public and humiliated, though that's bound to hurt anyone; I'm talking about where James threatens to take his pants down. If you feel at all sexually exposed, that's enough to warrent the term for me. We're all affected by things differently, and I've seen and heard of people damaged by less. So I can only hope James didn't do this. - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lady.indigo at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 01:18:03 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:18:03 -0400 Subject: Did Snape learn from Lily and James? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63378ee70508291818798d20a3@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139066 On 8/29/05, Auria wrote: > > > it occurred to me that maybe > Snape was actually writing these tips and spells in his text book > because he was learning and copying them from other students - namely > Lily and James Potter. Considering he has enough potions ability to be a professor without crib notes, I doubt it. He's a bully as a teacher, but he at the very least knows what he's doing. I also think, considering his reaction to Harry's cheating especially, that he has too much pride to do so himself. > > We also know that the spell 'Levicorpus' which Harry found written > in his textbook, was performed by James Potter on Snape as seen by > Harry in the pensieve in book 5. So perhaps Snape scribbled down > this jinx in his potions text book after he had been a victim of it, > in case it came in handy for him later? But Snape talks in the end about James using his own curses against him, right? - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 30 01:21:48 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:21:48 -0000 Subject: Peter is *nothing* like Neville (was :Harry's story , NOT Snape's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139067 Lady Indigo wrote: > > "I've never questioned why Peter did it, because > > as far as I know that was answered for me. Peter was > > a follower, probably very insecure, felt a lot weaker > > than his friends as much as he adored them, and when > > threatened by Voldemort he joined up out of cowardice > > and a need to be protected rather than do the right > > thing and sacrifice himself. He's a Neville who went > > wrong, in a sense." Del replies: > Wow wow wow :-) ! You can say whatever you want > about Snape or Peter, I really don't care, but don't > you go abusing my dear Neville like that :-)! > > There is NOTHING, and NEVER was anything, in > common between Peter and Neville, as far as their > character goes, and I will not let anyone > compare despicable Peter to courageous Neville :-) houyhnhn: I didn't interpret Lady Indigo's comment as meaning that they *are* alike. More like begging the question. Why are they *different*? Neville was weak. He was scared in most of his classes it seems, not just potions. His round face is constantly mentioned suggesting a babyish appearance. So why doesn't he become a suck up? Why *does* Neville have this shining core of integrity that makes him put it all on the line standing up FOR his friens and TO his friends? It's kind of the same question that's been debated on the nature/nurture Harry/Valdemort thread. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 01:34:28 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:34:28 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee7050829181471d62533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139068 Lady Indigo: > I'm referring to before the Pensieve scene, the whole four book span where > Harry thought the critiques against his father were unjustified and built > the man up in his mind. Alla: IMO, Snape's critique of Harry's father, regardless of whether Snape is right or wrong about him was SO inappropriate, I don't even know where to start. Snape is Harry's teacher, nothing more ( well, as it turned out he is also complicit in Harry's parents deaths,) but Snape has no personal relationship to Harry, IMO and had absolutely no right to run his mouth off at Harry's dead father, none. I wanted to slap him , when I read those quotes. Lady Indigo: As far as Snape's gang of Slytherins, I didn't > exactly see them springing to his aid during a very public scene. In fact, > Snape seemed to be entirely alone, and again alludes to that same thing: > "Your father would only fight me when it was four against one." Lupin > doesn't claim Snape had vast numbers of friends to back him up when he > confirms the memory Harry saw, either. Alla: I submit that Penseive scene was only ONE scene in seven years relationship which we don't know much about yet. And we know that Snape belonged to that gang according to Sirius. I never considered Sirius' to be a liar, but after HBP when his words about Snape's involvement with DA pretty much confirmed, I am taking his factual comments about Snape pretty much at face value. JMO, of course. Lady Indigo: Again, as I've stated repeatedly, I think Snape is > emotionally damaged enough that you can't expect the same things from him > that you can expect from Harry. He's in no way had the same support and > advantages. Alla: Harry had TEN years to endure Dursleys abuse and neglect. We don't even know that the boy in ONE Snape's memory was Snape himself. IMO, we have far more evidence of Harry's being damaged than we ever had about Snape. JMO of course, Alla. From lady.indigo at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 01:24:00 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:24:00 -0400 Subject: Peter is *nothing* like Neville (was :Harry's story , NOT Snape's) In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee705082908375f946702@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee705082918246dc44662@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139069 On 8/29/05, delwynmarch wrote: > > There's no way I can picture Neville almost wetting his pants with > excitement at the spectacle of anyone abusing anyone else, like we saw > Peter do. I can't picture him drool with admiration as someone is > showing off. I can't picture him compromising his values to fit in a > group. I can't picture him grovelling in the dust to save his life. > And he has already proven that he WILL NOT put his own life above what > is right, and that he WILL sacrifice his own life to save his friends' > life, the *very thing* that Peter was unable to do and that led him to > betrayal. I think you misunderstood me. :) I love Neville too and I agree with everything you said. What I meant is that Peter and Neville were both followers, shy boys, insecure, had very little confidence in their own abilities. Neville's response to that was to remain true to himself and to defy even powerful friends if he thought it's what was right. Peter's response was to become a lickboot and a traitor. I in no way meant to do Neville any injustice there, and sorry if you misread me! - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lady.indigo at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 01:36:41 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:36:41 -0400 Subject: Snape's remorse (was:ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Whom does Snape REALLY love) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63378ee705082918366c29729f@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139070 > Betsy Hp: > Absolutely. And I wonder if Lily came to symbolize the path not > taken. Not that Snape is still holding this burning torch for her, > but that she represented what was good about him and what he chose > to reject for the Death Eater way. I picture her view of him as > being the niggling doubt that caused him to look more critically at > the Death Eater philosophy. (Like how Harry's voice of reason > sometimes sounds like Hermione.) I should probably join this thread at some point, considering how I'm a little bit of a Snape/Lily shipper, especially after this book. I think Snape's feelings for Lily were a little more romantic than platonic (though unrequited) but either way that she's the key to all this. A few clues that I haven't seen brought up yet, and that I wish were mine but that I've seen before: first of all, Snape was bullied and abused all his life, has taken the Dark Mark, and was once nearly killed by Remus in werewolf form. Why is the day Harry saw his worst enemy? Maybe because Snape is ashamed of how he acted, lashing out at Lily out of pride and thus causing her to turn on him and compare he and James to each other? Also, a line from his first Potions class: "What is the significance of asphodel and wormwood?" This may be nitpicking at a coincidence, but asphodel is a plant from the lily family. Wormwood means 'bitterness and absence or seperation, protection and love', while asphodel means 'memorial sorrow, my regrets follow you to the grave'. Snape asks this question to Harry, maybe for a reason? I admit it may be nothing, but it's interesting. - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From merylanna at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 00:35:48 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082915361c37d2a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050830003548.35882.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139071 lady.indigo at gmail.com wrote: I'm not asking for a complete disintegration of self here, and definitely not for Harry to forget the ills that were done to him. I'm saying that if Harry found the maturity to pity him then he could have *possibly* seen the sense in making an overture of respect towards the fact that, at least concerning Harry's father, *Snape was right*. <<< I think the possibility existed for Harry to take a shot at this but Sirius got in the way - plotwise, not as a character. When I pull back and look at the story, Sirius helps propel Harry's continued crossed-purposes with Snape at every important plot juncture, most of all, at his death. Harry/Snape at cross-purposes is huge to the series (as *I*, a "good" Snape reader, looks at things) and Sirius has a key plot function there, as well as being a pretty good character in his own right. Harry feels a lot combination of guilt/loyalty/neediness where Sirius is concerned all through OoTP. Moving toward Snape will feel, to him, like disloyalty to Sirius, who holds the same opinion of Snape Harry does and at least pretends to have the same suspicions. Did Harry ever wonder about Sirius's behavior in the penseive? He's focused on his father, but Sirius is quite as scathing to Snape, he's the one who alerts James to Snape's presence, like a hunt dog sighting prey, I think it went, and he's an arrogant ass. Something OT I found sad in the pensieve scene is what appears to be Snape's passion as a student. I think we can assume he was a brilliant student in the Hermoine mold, though not as nice. :) But there's Sirius and James ignoring their recent exams, there's Sirius refusing to "test" Lupin while he studies for his transfiguration OWL, because he knows every bit of that "Rubbish". And you know he does. All the time in the world to pull wings off flies or pants off Snapes, and still get top grades. Meanwhile Snape barely knows where he's headed, he's so absorbed in his schoolwork. I don't think he's a "grind" - I just think that's who he is. He loves that stuff. But isn't rewarded for it any more than somebody like James and Sirius who don't give a damn, because they do as well without caring. Merrylana. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 01:49:09 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:49:09 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee7050829181471d62533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139072 Alla: >> IMO, JKR as I read her intentions , which could be wrong of course, >> disagrees with you. If she wanted Harry to apologise, IMO she would >> have wrote about it. Lady Indigo: >I disagree. Harry's thoughts and actions regarding Snape have >constantly been influenced by prejudice. This is important, and if >she's taking Harry in the direction I think she is then his >continuing lack of trust will be relevant in the seventh book, where >we've gone beyond apology and it's the abandoning of prejudice - by >both men - that will have the significance. Ceridwen: I always read it that Harry has difficulty with the niceties of life because of his upbringing, or lack thereof. And, IMO, he'll fall all over himself for people who treat him well since he hasn't had that in his life before, and lash out against people who treat him meanly, like the Dursleys do. I also think that, because Petunia probably neglected his social education, he might find the common politeness a bit daunting, especially when it's toward someone he doesn't like or who he thinks doesn't like him. I think he's been stunted in this area. I do think he's biased against Snape. Again, because of the prejudice in his own House, and among his friends at first, and only then by the treatment he receives. He's a novice in a world his more knowledgeable and new friends know. He's following their lead, and it becomes his adopted nature. Since he has the capacity to feel some sympathy for Tom Riddle and for Snape, he has the capacity to at least attempt to get over it and move on. And, I agree that he will have to make the supreme effort to get over it, since the power he has is love. You can't love unconditionally if you're filled with hate for some. He'll need some good advice from someone he respects, IMO, to finally get the idea that it doesn't matter what Snape does, or how stunted Snape is, this is Harry, a completely different person, and for his own sake as well as for the sake of his mission, *he* has to be the one to rise above. Even if it doesn't seem fair. Ceridwen. From lady.indigo at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 01:51:03 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:51:03 -0400 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee7050829181471d62533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee705082918515ac0cc87@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139073 > Alla: > > IMO, Snape's critique of Harry's father, regardless of whether Snape > is right or wrong about him was SO inappropriate, I don't even know > where to start. > > Snape is Harry's teacher, nothing more ( well, as it turned out he > is also complicit in Harry's parents deaths,) but Snape has no > personal relationship to Harry, IMO and had absolutely no right to > run his mouth off at Harry's dead father, none. > > I wanted to slap him , when I read those quotes. Of course, and you're supposed to want to slap him. It's as inappropriate and bullying as anything else Snape has done in his class, if not moreso. But the point is that it was true, and Harry's acknowledgement of this would have allowed for a more beneficial relationship with someone who, while certainly not the nicest person, was for all Harry knew a very useful and important resource prior to Book 6. Certainly someone trusted in Dumbledore's eyes, at least, however that did or didn't turn out. Alla: > > I submit that Penseive scene was only ONE scene in seven years > relationship which we don't know much about yet. And we know that > Snape belonged to that gang according to Sirius. I never considered > Sirius' to be a liar, but after HBP when his words about Snape's > involvement with DA pretty much confirmed, I am taking his factual > comments about Snape pretty much at face value. JMO, of course. I'm taking all of Snape, Lupin, and Sirius's remarks into account when I say that Snape had definitely been targeted alone, once as the subject of attempted murder/grevious assault, and we certainly never heard Lupin or Sirius talk about the *Marauders* being attacked and abused. Don't you think we would have, at least as a 'you did it too!' retort of some kind? The fact that Snape's use of Sectumsempra involves a single cut on James's face when it's shown to be capable of much worse is very telling, too, about how little Snape either was able to or chose to retaliate. Alla: > > Harry had TEN years to endure Dursleys abuse and neglect. We don't > even know that the boy in ONE Snape's memory was Snape himself. > > IMO, we have far more evidence of Harry's being damaged than we ever > had about Snape. Even if the memory doesn't symbolize all we can learn about Snape being abused as a child for time and length's sake, Harry found refuge at Hogwarts, where he was among friends, father/grandfather figures, reknown and acclaim. Snape didn't have any of this. He was hurt by others pretty much up to taking the Dark Mark and beyond. - Lady Indigo ] From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Aug 30 02:20:27 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:20:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <20050830003548.35882.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e701c5ad09$63de6f80$943a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 139074 lady.indigo at gmail.com wrote: I'm not asking for a complete disintegration of self here, and definitely not for Harry to forget the ills that were done to him. I'm saying that if Harry found the maturity to pity him then he could have *possibly* seen the sense in making an overture of respect towards the fact that, at least concerning Harry's father, *Snape was right*. <<< Sherry now: i am really desperately trying to stay out of Snape debates, because I think he is a cold blooded murderer, and neither side shall convince the other. However, on this i have to speak up. Why should a 15-year-old boy act with more maturity than an adult man, and a teacher? Snape is the adult here. Yes, Harry was wrong to look in the pensieve, but isn't there just a bit of wondering if Snape meant him to do just that? I've always wondered about that, even when I wasn't really sure one way or the other about Snape. Snape has bullied and belittled and abused Harry, verbally at every turn from the beginning, but his actions seem to be excusable. Why should we expect Harry to act above all this, when he is really only a child still? Not a man yet. With years of maturing yet to do. But Snape's cruelty is ok, because he's an adult and he's supposedly on the side of good, even though he is a total and complete jerk. I don't buy it anymore. i struggled against my natural instincts for years, trying to believe in Snape as still on the good side. But that doesn't matter for now. Snape wouldn't have appreciated Harry's apology, unless it was in the nasty glee of having the son of James humbling himself. Why on earth should Harry submit himself to that? And why should he apologize for the actions of his father during the time when his father was a *teenager*? Do we really judge James on the basis of one carefully placed memory of Snape's? Poor James to be judged on such evidence! And poor Harry for if he is expected to act more wisely and with much more maturity than his elders. Sherry From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 02:22:59 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:22:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's remorse (was:ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Whom does Snape REALLY love In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082918366c29729f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139075 > - Lady Indigo > > Also, a line from his first Potions class: "What is the significance > of asphodel and wormwood?" This may be nitpicking at a coincidence, > but asphodel is a plant from the lily family. Wormwood means > 'bitterness and absence or seperation, protection and love', while > asphodel means 'memorial sorrow, my regrets follow you to the > grave'. Snape asks this question to Harry, maybe for a reason? I > admit it may be nothing, but it's interesting. Valky: Oh no I don't think you're nitpicking some insignificant coincedence at all. My experience with sleuthing through this series tells me that you are looking in exactly the place where a clue would be hidden. :D I want to congratulate you for that. Before I get out my LOON specs and edit you. ;D The precise quote is "What would I get if I added powdered root of Asphodel to an infusion of Wormwood." This slightly unbalnce your proposal that Snape is telling Harry his regret for Lily's death. HOWEVER.. before we drop it. I would like to register my agreement that these could be Snape (or more likely JKR) laying clues about Harry's parents. The reason I say this is because of the other question that Snape poses to Harry. What is the difference between Monkshood and Wolfsbane. Tranlsated in the tradition that Lady Indigo proposed: What is the difference between Chivalry and Misanthropy. WE have seen *that* debate SO! many times here about James in the Pensieve. ROFL Valky From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 03:13:07 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:13:07 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139076 A long response for a long post. > Betsy Hp: > There's no sympathy in Snape's eyes, or at least, none is > described. This is where Snape's expression has gone blank so it's > hard for me to see him as being moved. And though I can buy Snape > trying to disguise his secret passion from Bellatrix, why would JKR > try and hide it from her readers? If she was heading down this path > shouldn't she foreshadow a bit? > > I have a sneaky suspicion you'd say JKR *has* foreshadowed and I'm > being remarkably dense in overlooking it. But I honestly don't see > any hints at a secret passion. (Is this the point of agree to > disagree?) > Neri: Probably. I think I've read enough SHIP threads to recognize this point . You might say that the H/H SHIPpers saw a lot of such foreshadowing and got it wrong. I'd point out that the R/H and H/G SHIPpers also saw a lot of foreshadowing and were dead right. Impasse. But I've noticed that, while you can't see the secret passion in Severus' eyes, you seem to agree that Cissy was falling all over him during the whole chapter. So let me ask you again my original question #1: Why did Narcissa choose such tactics and how did she know it would work on Snape? > > Betsy Hp: > I just have a *really* hard time seeing Snape being this > *incredibly* petty. Sign up to an Unbreakable Vow in the hopes that > the hottie might slip you some sugar? What is Snape -- a drunk frat > boy? Neri: Well, I could point out that Snape has some documented history for pettiness. Only I actually don't think he can be called petty here when he makes such a sacrifice. Say tragic perhaps. The image of him and Narcissa kneeling clasping hands while he makes his Vows strongly suggests that his intentions are honorable. What is Narcissa is actually the more complex question, but she's surely desperate about her only son. > > Betsy Hp: > Yes, Snape can go bat-poo crazy when his emotions are raised. > We've seen this in PoA and we saw it in OotP. For Snape to make > this kind of massive sacrifice at such a critical time (and Snape > *must* realize how critical the times are no matter what side he's > on) for such a heart on his sleeve reason he'd have to be operating > on pure emotion. And, IMO, that level of emotion is impossible for > Snape to hide. He's never been able to before. > Neri: Gee, it's really not easy maneuvering between you Snape-can't-act-to-save-his-life guys the Snape-is-an-Oscar-actor guys . I've already explained why Snape can't go into Shrieking Shack mode here. It would ruin everything both within and outside the story. But we get enough clues that he isn't merely calculating. His gentle behavior towards Narcissa is a *huge* clue if contrasted with his behavior towards anybody else throughout the series. Nor does he manages to maintain absolute control during the Vows - before he makes that crucial last Vow his hand twitches inside Narcissa'a hand, and he hesitates before answering. This whole UV scene is dramatic and powerfully symbolic. I would feel rather cheated as a reader if it turns out that Snape was merely calculating here. It comes across to me as a big Choice moment, and not merely a choice between plan A and plan B. Not to mention that I'm yet to hear a plan A and plan B that make sense to me. > > >>Neri: > > He makes an > > Unbreakable Vow and he never even suggests that he's doing it for > > his friend Lucius. > > Betsy Hp: > He doesn't have to, IMO. Narcissa brings Lucius up, invokes their > friendship. Snape agrees to protect the Malfoy scion, so I think > their friendship is implied. > Neri: Hmm. Since you talked before about "Snape turning away from Narcissa", this is perhaps the time to note that the turning away part was Snape's response to Narcissa mentioning *Lucius*: ******************************************** "This is vengeance for Lucius's mistake, I know it!" Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as though they were indecent, but he could not pretend not to hear her. ********************************************* And hey, in case that wasn't obvious enough, here it is again: ********************************************* "That's why he's chosen Draco, isn't it?" she persisted. "To punish Lucius?" "If Draco succeeds," said Snape, still looking away from her, "he will be honored above all others." "But he won't succeed!" sobbed Narcissa. ********************************************* Snape's message is silent, but it's obvious enough to me: "Your dear Lucius is the one who got you into this, and I'm under no obligation to mend his mistakes". > Betsy Hp: > My personal theory (at the moment) is that Dumbledore and Snape feel > they need something from the Malfoys (horcrux location information?) > and that's why Snape hopes to bind the Malfoy family to his side. > But he's got to be careful about it because he doesn't want > Voldemort to think his loyalty is compromised. So I think Snape > thought this Vow would be a good way to get the Malfoys without > raising Voldemort's ire. Or at least, not raise it too badly. > That's why I think Snape doesn't talk much about Lucius, he's on the > out's with Voldemort. But he does show a certain amount of > compassion for the Malfoy family and their woes. > Neri: He does??? Can you quote that? I had the impression he's showing compassion *only* for Narcissa (which for Snape is amazing enough by itself). But when he's talking about Lucius, he's talking "flatly" and cruelly, in the best Snape style: ********************************************* "The Dark Lord will not be persuaded, and I am not stupid enough to attempt it," said Snape flatly. "I cannot pretend that the Dark Lord is not angry with Lucius. Lucius was supposed to be in charge. He got himself captured, along with how many others, and failed to retrieve the prophecy into the bargain. Yes, the Dark Lord is angry, Narcissa, very angry indeed." "Then I am right, he has chosen Draco in revenge!" choked Narcissa. "He does not mean him to succeed, he wants him to be killed trying!" When Snape said nothing, Narcissa seemed to lose what little self-restraint she still possessed. Standing up, she staggered to Snape and seized the front of his robes. Her face close to his, her tears falling onto his chest, she gasped, "You could do it. You could do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course you would, and he would reward you beyond all of us ?" ********************************************* And this is the moment when Snape becomes really gentle and compassionate towards Narcissa. After he threw Lucius' fault in her face and made her realize by herself who's the only one who can save her son. > Betsy Hp: > So the question becomes, what does Snape's nickname reveal? > Frankly, I think the answer is still up in the air and depends > greatly on your view of Snape. Personally, I think it was Snape > taking a hated family slur and making it his own. Possibly with > Lily's help, since I doubt Snape came up with it on his own. (I can > totally see Slughorn's fiesty Lily encouraging Snape to take pride > in being a half-blood and having fun with the name Prince.) > Neri: This is a fair interpretation, of course, only I don't know any canon to support it. The whole connection between Snape and Lily at Hogwarts is currently pure speculation, except for that "mudblood" in the pensieve memory. And if it ever happened then it looks like Lily failed, because grownup Snape was the head of house Slytherin for many years and apparently kept the fact that he is a half-blood very quiet. We needed to discover his privet book after six years to find out about it. > Betsy Hp: And if Snape *was* interested in the WW "aristocracy" > shouldn't he adopt at least *some* of the trappings? Even while > hating himself a little for doing it? > Neri: The trappings of the aristocracy are typically very expensive (or they wouldn't be used by aristocracy alone), and I doubt Snape's means extend to manors and house elves. But how about adopting the aristocracy manner of speaking? Not only the words, but also the same sneering, demeaning attitude that Lucius is using. Lucius (in Hagrid's hut): "you call this a house?" Snape (about Wormtail): "we're not counting vermin, are we?" I hear the same music there, and I doubt it's Lucius who learned it from Snape. > > Betsy Hp: > I'm not saying that the nickname didn't mean anything to him. If it > was given to him by one of his few close friends I'm sure it meant a > great deal to him. Just as the Marauders signed their map with > their nicknames, Snape signed his book with his. > Neri: I knew we can agree on something . The nickname is meaningful and revealing. Of course it is. This is JKR we are talking about. > Betsy Hp: > Remus and Sirius still referred to each other as Moony and Padfoot > didn't they? Why should Snape be ashamed of his childhood nickname? > Yes, the proclamation was cheezy, but I think it was important (for > both Snape and JKR) to make very clear that those notes were his. > That combined with how well Harry marked the hiding place of the > book gives a pretty strong hint (IMO) that the half-blood Prince > will be of some importance in book 7. > Neri: The fact he made it clear is important, but also the *way* he did it. I sincerely doubt that the grownup Sirius would ever shout to anyone in any situation "I, the Black Padfoot!" but somehow it is in character for grownup Snape. The Marauders' nicknames are cool, sort of, but in a rather unassuming manner. Certainly there's nothing noble or impressive about Mooney, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. On the Marauder Map they style themselves as "Messrs.". I'm not a native English speaker but that sounds to me more commercial than aristocratic. It's only Severus who styles himself a "Prince". > Betsy Hp: > So Snape's madly in love with Narcissa. So > what? What does it do for the next book's plot? What does it > explain (except for the Vow)? How does it effect Harry? Does it > even clear up some of Snape's ambiguity? > Neri: Explaining the Vow is no small thing. It was the direct cause of Dumbledore's death and Snape severing his relations with the Order. Now, to know how does this affect Harry and the plot of Book 7 I first need to know what the plot of Book 7 is, but I'd hazard a guess that the effect would be considerable. > > >>Neri: > > First, you treat "Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with > > Dumbledore" as a given, while right now it is in considerable > > doubt. > > Betsy Hp: > For me there is no doubt, that's true (no ESE!Snape argument has > made sense to me, yet). Neri: When you came up with the title of this thread "ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS" I was somehow assuming that we are going to evaluate these two theories based on the canon we already know. But if we are evaluating them based on fitting with Betsy's theories, then I fully concede that LOLLIPOPS might be better. > Betsy Hp: But, even if you think Snape is ESE, > LOLLIPOPS provides a motive that *Dumbledore* may have found > credible. And it's something that Dumbledore would have been > hesitant to share with Harry. > Neri: You know, if I was Harry, and Dumbledore would have told me that he trusts Snape because Snape was in love with my mother, I would have most probably been very angry for a week or two. But then after cooling my head a bit I'd go to Dumbledore and ask him: Okay, perhaps you had a reason to trust Snape *then*, when my mother was still alive and he tried to save her. But my mother has been dead for many years now. Why do you trust Snape *today*? And another big problem with LOLLIPOPS: If Snape was in love with Lily, then his main reason to hate Sirius in PoA should have been that Sirius betrayed Lily to her death and foiled Snape's attempt to save her, right? You would expect Snape to try taking revenge of Sirius personally for that, or at the very least have some privet word with him, to let him know that Snape is avenging Lily before turning him in to the dementors. In fact, not only Snape doesn't do this, but during his entire famous explosion in the Shrieking Shack, and later in the hospital wing, he doesn't mention Lily even once! It's Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew who are talking all the time about "Lily and James", but Snape doesn't even say "the Potters" or "your parents". He only ever mentions James. He shouts on Harry "you'd have died like *your father*". When he rages about Sirius, it's because Sirius tried to "murder" him when he was sixteen. But Lily practically doesn't count for Snape. From his words you'd never even know that *two* people died that night at GH. And after Snape had joined the Order and became a double agent again, shouldn't he finally realize that it's indeed Wormtail, not Sirius, who betrayed the woman he loved to her death? Yet in HBP it turns out he's living with Wormtail in the same house! In Spinner's End Snape surely shows contempt towards Wormtail, which he has ample reason to, but how can he live with the person he should have hated most in the world after Voldy? And it would have been so easy for Snape to take revenge of Wormtail here. Just slip him a poison, get rid of the body, and then tell Voldy that Wormtail defected or something. In short, LOLLIPOPS as a theory for explaining Snape's motives and Dumbledore's trust is full of gaping holes. It doesn't really "explain" anything. > > Betsy Hp: > But it's only bangy for the Malfoys. I doubt Harry could care two > tiddly winks about the Malfoy family drama. The final book will > focus, I think, on Harry. If Snape's story takes him out of Harry's > view than I doubt we'll see much of it in play. And won't that be a > waste of a wonderfully mysterious and ambiguious character? > Neri: I'm sure JKR will find a way to connect the Malfoy family drama to Harry. Most likely some of them and/or Snape would rebel against Voldy and help Harry when he'd least expect it. Draco, for example, is already foreshadowed to come back to the light. I don't think I'll risk more predictions about which one of them would end up on which side, dead or alive, and for what personal reasons, because the possibilities are practically endless, but each of these possibilities can make for a good Harry story. > Betsy Hp: > Not if the book is about Harry it doesn't. Come on, even if > Snape is evil imagine him telling Harry the reason Voldemort didn't > want to kill Lily was that she was supposed to be a gift for Snape. > If that doesn't raise a Luke level scream of anger out of Harry, I > don't know what will. Though, of course, I'm holding out for > NobleHero!Snape in the end. *sighs wistfully* > Neri: Like several other members I suspect that in the climax there will be only room for one Noble Hero of that caliber, and as you say this is a book about Harry. I'm sure that we we'll get the final showdown between Harry and Snape, and I suspect Snape would turn out at least in part on Harry's side, but based on all their past matches I'll risk a prediction that it will be about James, not about Lily. It's fathers that JKR has a thing about, not mothers. But at least we still may get that Luke level scream of anger from Draco. Some of us will be holding out for that . Neri From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 03:27:38 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:27:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's remorse (was:ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Whom does Snape REALLY love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139077 > > Valky: > I would like to > register my agreement that these could be Snape (or more likely JKR) > laying clues about Harry's parents. > > The reason I say this is because of the other question that Snape > poses to Harry. > What is the difference between Monkshood and Wolfsbane. > Tranlsated in the tradition that Lady Indigo proposed: > > What is the difference between Chivalry and Misanthropy. > > WE have seen *that* debate SO! many times here about James in the > Pensieve. ROFL > > Valky Valky, again, replying to her own post dry retches as she places the LOLLIPOP in her mouth, her faces screws up in displeasure, her ACID POP dangling uselessly by her side: Blehhh! I am not doing this because I like it you know. The facts just speak for themselves, don't they. The above is no less an allusion to Snapes relationships with Harry's parents that I am a fanatic LOLLIPOP detractor for said reasons. I'm still A Siriusly James Potter girl. In HBP Dumbledore merely says that Snape regretted what Voldmeort planned to do to people he knew from school. DD didn't specify James or Lily, he just implied both to some degree. Harry naturally disgreed that Snape would give a damn about his father, nothing more was said by either in regard to Lily. I can't continue to try and construe this to James, when the allusion in Snapes first ever scene is so clear now. Snape's regret, his bitterness, his draught of living death is Lily Potter. My prayers have been answered and the answer is NO. The good ship Lollipops will not sink. I recal not far back that there were some of us here, contemplating how HP tends to echo itself. And discussing wether the scenes of Harry and Snapes confrontation in Book seven will echo the Shrieking Shack. I think it was Alla who said she hoped Harry would echo DD in HBP saying to Snape "It is my mercy that matters now, not yours" I have just realised that if Lollipops still sails by mid Book seven, then the Shireking Shack all over again it definitely is. Lets just say that "That awful boy." is Severus Snape. What happens when Harry tells his Aunt "Snape killed Dumbledore." Would she recognise the name, and tell Harry that Severus was Lily's friend. hat if he comes across memories of a friendship between Snape and Lily as he searches through Godrics Hollow. Then what happens when Hary and Snape cross paths? Worse things now are revealed to Harry than the death of Dumbledore. "You were her friend! She stood up for you alone that day, and you betrayed her! You were my mothers friend!" Can Snape make the same claim as Sirius, would he rather have died than ever betray someone he cared for. No. But he cannot grovel at Harrys feet like Pettigrew either. So what will Snape do, when Harry finally forces him to look into his Mother's eyes? Valky Wishing she was firing canons at the hull insted. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 03:42:34 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 03:42:34 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082918515ac0cc87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I'm taking all of Snape, Lupin, and Sirius's remarks into account when I say > that Snape had definitely been targeted alone, once as the subject of > attempted murder/grevious assault, and we certainly never heard Lupin or > Sirius talk about the *Marauders* being attacked and abused. Don't you think > we would have, at least as a 'you did it too!' retort of some kind? > The fact that Snape's use of Sectumsempra involves a single cut on James's > face when it's shown to be capable of much worse is very telling, too, about > how little Snape either was able to or chose to retaliate. I'm going to try and post more on this tomorrow so I will quickly point out a few quick things. 1- Snape is complicit in the deaths of Harry's parents and one of the architechs of virtually every piece of misery in his life. maybe I am simple minded but not only does that relieve Harry of any obligation to appologize to Snape, in my mind it pretty much justifies anything Harry wants to do against Snape-up to and including beating Snape to a bloody pulp with his bare hands. That is how strongly I feel about what Snape did. 2- If Harry were to appologize to Snape, I think it would be seen as an act of weakness. This is a guy whose school nickname boils down to sniveler. you get that kind of nickname by crying on the playground in front of the other kids. I think Snape so hates weakness in himself and others because of his past there is no way any apology would be seen as anything other than weak and snivelly. He would use that at every opportunity to try and break Harry down further. of course that is just the way I read his character. 3- You seem to put a lot of stock in the fact that Remus and Sirius validate the events in the pensieve. But if you trust them on that, why don't you trust them when they say that Snape gave as good as he got? We seen one scene and you extrapolate that to mean that Snape was always a victim and James was always a bully. But if Sirius and Remus are telling the truth as you seem to think they were then Snape would also have some bullying in his past. phoenixgod2000 From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 04:01:22 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 04:01:22 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082918515ac0cc87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139079 > > Alla: > > Snape is Harry's teacher, nothing more ( well, as it turned out he > > is also complicit in Harry's parents deaths,) but Snape has no > > personal relationship to Harry, IMO and had absolutely no right to > > run his mouth off at Harry's dead father, none. > > > > I wanted to slap him , when I read those quotes. > > > Lady Indigo: > But the point is that it was true, and Harry's acknowledgement of > this would have allowed for a more beneficial relationship with > someone who, while certainly not the nicest person, was for all > Harry knew a very useful and important resource prior to Book 6. > Certainly someone trusted in Dumbledore's eyes, at least, however > that did or didn't turn out. Valky: It just wouldn't be Harry to do that. Harry is not a Slytherin type, he isn't looking for beneficial relationships, he looks for meaningful camaraderie and friendship. He is a true Gryffindor. It would be Snape and only Snape that would percieve ny value in a coldly beneficial relationship between them. Harry wouldn't know the first thing to do with one. Snape constantly accuses harry and James of being all self interested and needing powerful friends but *that* is *not* true of Harry, and neither was it ever true of James. Harry was certainly right about that, and hence entitled to hang on to some manner of belief that Snape was a bit deluded with angst when it came to James. Harry's connection with James comes most strongly in POA and through Sirius, Harry sees that he and his father both believed in true friendship, like Sirius. Snape says that James never did and that Harry doesn't either. Snape *is* wrong, too, is all I am saying, and even if he was *only* right, what could a boy like Harry do with that knowledge? > Alla: > > > > I submit that Penseive scene was only ONE scene in seven years > > relationship which we don't know much about yet. And we know that > > Snape belonged to that gang according to Sirius. I never > > considered Sirius' to be a liar, but after HBP when his words > > about Snape's involvement with DA pretty much confirmed, I am > > taking his factual comments about Snape pretty much at face value. > > Lady Indigo: > Don't you think we would have, at least as a > 'you did it too!' retort of some kind? Valky: We get one of those. * Snape never missed a chance to Hex James, you don't think your * father would take that lying down do you? > Lady Indigo: > > The fact that Snape's use of Sectumsempra involves a single cut on > James's face when it's shown to be capable of much worse is very > telling, too, about how little Snape either was able to or chose to > retaliate. Valky: Oh I don't think so. James did get a warning from Sirius and both James and Sirius seemed to take a curse from Snape quite seriously. James was quick off the mark, a seeker with exceptional reflexes, and he moved before the curse hit him. There is no proof in the Pensieve scene at all that Snapes Sectumsempra was controlled, and plenty of evidence that Sirius and James just knew when to duck. Valky so relieved that a pensieve debate came along to take her mind off that darn SHIP! From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 04:04:00 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 04:04:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's dream in PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139080 Christina wrote: Considering what we now know about Snape, Draco Malfoy, and Horcruxes, what does everyone make of the dream Harry had his first night at Hogwarts? It seems like one of those passages we should be able to dig through for clues, but I can't think of any theories this could lend itself to. It hardly seems like something that JKR would put in just to show Harry's distress. Bookworm: It's funny that you mention this ? I was thinking about Harry's dreams a few days ago. Didn't he also have one that ended with Ron and Hermione wearing crowns? [reminder to self ? it's time to reread PS/SS again] I do agree that JKR put this dream in for a reason, probably foreshadowing. At one level, the turban that was talking to him turned out to be hiding Voldemort. And in CoS, Harry did question why he was put into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. The way the turban becomes heavier and painful might foreshadow the way Harry is moving slowly toward dark magic. According to the Sorting Hat, Harry has ambition and a "thirst to prove" himself, and would have done well in Slytherin. Will his Gryffindor traits continue to counterbalance his Slytherin traits? Lady Indigo wrote, "Harry's moving further and further towards the Dark Side of the Force through his hate," (Message 139054). In OoP he tried to use the cruciatus curse on Bellatrix and caused little harm; in HBP he used Sectumsempra on Draco with much more dramatic effect. What other dark magic will Harry explore in book 7? The dream doesn't indicate whether or not Harry actually got the turban off. Will Harry be able to resist the lure of `easy' magic and choose to do what is right? Or will the Slytherin traits suffocate him? Malfoy turning into Snape? Simplistically, Malfoy was a boy's enemy ? the bully and rival, but basically causing childish troubles. Snape is a man's enemy. Harry has started to become a man, but will have to grow more before he faces Voldemort again. Possibly, even though not part of the dream, Dudley was Harry's training for dealing with Draco; Draco provided training for dealing with Snape. Could Snape have been training Harry to face Voldemort? Could JKR have meant something totally different? What was there about the dream that is important for the narrative but that Harry has forgotten? Some possible theories, but more questions asked than answered once again. Ravenclaw Bookworm From j.m.clausen at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 30 02:29:03 2005 From: j.m.clausen at sbcglobal.net (Jeanne Clausen) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:29:03 -0000 Subject: Rows in the Forest - what might one reveal about the other. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139081 Valky wrote: > > First We didn't know Quirrel was not just Quirrel. He was carrying > Voldemort around in his Turban. Can we likewise contemplate that > Dumbledore is no longer simply Dumbledore? He has after all taken on > one of Voldemorts Horcruxes. Has he, also, chanced to taint himself > with Voldemort, in a different way? Valky, I'm sorry that I can't respond to most of this very thought- provoking post of yours -- most of it went over my head. But what you say in the paragraph above corresponds to something that I've been thinking. I thought it highly possible that there was something of Voldemort (a piece of his soul?) in that stuff that Dumbledore had to drink in the cave. We don't really know what that drink was and what exactly it was going to do to Dumbledore. I have thought that perhaps it turned Dumbledore himself into a horcrux and, therefore, he would have to be destroyed (and Dumbledore, of course, knew all this before he drank it). Also, it must also have been part of Dumbledore's plan to make Harry to think that Snape was truly an evil Death Eater so that if and when Voldemort goes poking around in Harry's head, Snape's loyalty to him will be confirmed by Harry's thoughts. I've probably gone off the subject of your original post here, and I apologize. Jeanne From merpsiren at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 02:38:51 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:38:51 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <00e701c5ad09$63de6f80$943a79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139082 > Sherry now: Yes, Harry was wrong to look in the pensieve, but isn't there just a bit of wondering if Snape meant him to do just that? And why should he apologize for the actions of his father during the time when his father was a *teenager*? Kris here: If Snape wished to plant a memory for Harry to find... I would imagine that he would choose a memory that was less embarrassing for himself. We are given the impression from Snape that James and Sirius were a constant annoyance and bullied him at every opportunity... so I would imagine Snape would have several choice memories to leave behind for Harry to "accidently" find... I doubt he would pick the one memory where he (Snape) was humiliated by having his underpants removed in front of several students. No, I think he would want to keep that memory all to himself. As far as an apology, I wouldn't expect Harry to apologize for anyone's behavior but his own. And in this case, Harry made a poor choice of snooping. Just as if he had found Snape's diary and just couldn't help himself from reading a few pages. He should have apologized, and in return at least make an effort to continue his occlumency lessons... he is told by so many that this is important, but not important enough for Harry to apologize and make any attempt at reconcilliation. Kris From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 06:11:59 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:11:59 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? ( Apologizing to Hitler) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082915361c37d2a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139083 wrote: > if Harry found the maturity > to pity him [Snape] A man like Snape can deal with somebody hating him, but if somebody pitied him I believe it would push him into a homicidal fury, or rather another homicidal fury. > the fact that, at least concerning > Harry's father, *Snape was right*. Before I read HBP I might have agreed with you, but not now, not now when we know what sort of creature Snape really is. Before HBP many of us, myself included, sometimes liked to fantasies that Snape was not as bad as he seemed to be, but now we know he was much worse than he seemed to be. Monsters of Snape's magnitude are not created overnight, I have a very strong hunch that even at the age of 15 he had done things that well deserved the punishment he received at the hands of James. I once thought James a bully, I no longer do. Let me challenge the good Snape people for a minute and I won't even bring up the small matter of him murdering the greatest and kindest living wizard. Dumbledore said Snape was sorry he had a part in the murder of Harry's parents, but can that be true? Let's put the best possible face on it and say he didn't deliberately perform actions that he thought would lead to the death of the Potter's, he's still at least as culpable as a drunk driver who killed someone, or an engineer who made a design mistake causing a bridge to collapse with casualties. If you had made such a blunder that made a one year old boy an orphan would you devote 6 years of your life trying to make that boy as miserable as possible when he was a teenager? Snape did. > I'm not even expecting the apology > to come in Book 5, when Harry was > unfit for it, but in Book 6 What on earth is Harry supposed to apologize for? Snape, coward that he is, tried to protect his most embarrassing memories but he didn't give Harry the same opportunity. If Harry had apologized to Snape by the end of book 6 he would have felt like a Jew who apologized to Hitler for laughing at his funny looking mustache. > he decided to blame Snape for Sirius And in book 6 Snape brags that he played a key part in Sirius's death. > hate him for every little thing Little things like Dumbledore's murder. > and mouth off to him Well boo hoo, I sure hope Harry didn't hurt Snape's delicate feelings, that would be a horrible tragedy > Harry's moving further and further > towards the Dark Side of the Force > through his hate I have my doubts that is true but actually I hope it is because I think it would make an interesting story. Eggplant From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Aug 30 06:46:46 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:46:46 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: colebiancardi: > Also, on the physical education side, I never read about a > Wizard/Witch jogging, running, working out - yet, not all > Wizards/Witches are big huge lumps of fat with no muscle tone. I > wonder if there is there a spell for weight-loss and keeping in shape? Geoff: The point is whether this is relevant to the story. We have had comments in the past about no reference being made to matters such as Harry and the others having a bath. Is the fact that Harry is in the bath or Ginny is running round the edge of the Qudditch pitch each morning a piece in the jigsaw of beating Voldemort? Should we be told that Ron has gone off to shave? I walk about 5 miles a day with my dogs but I don't make a great issue of telling everyone that I have done this or that I try to have a balanced diet. It's a part of everyday life. From dkeeberlibryn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 05:16:12 2005 From: dkeeberlibryn at yahoo.com (dkeeberlibryn) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:16:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139085 As a librarian, I have read all the books in the HP series, and while I enjoyed this one, I came away with a nagging feeling that at the end, Harry just wasn't ready to battle V in the next book. In each book, Rowling did a very good job of showing an appropriate image of HP for the age he was in each book. So, too, this one, but I just don't feel that he is prepared to do battle with the most powerful evil wizard in history as he stands. Certainly, in the time between now and the advent of the next title, he will grow, but when you look at H's skill level, the fact that as a rule he needs help or that he stumbles into the solution that saves his life, it just doesn't seem plausible that he will be powerful enough, in control of his emotions enough and wise enough to do battle. Another impression I had was that, based on the archetypal form that requires that the father must die for the son to become a full man, I was fully expecting Dumbledore to die in this book. As so it came to pass. But, further true to the archetypal form, the powers of the father must pass to the son, although he does internal battle as he learns to control those powers and eventually do good with them. Unless Rowling either produces a 900 page monster, or she caves in and writes an eighth book, I don't see how she will convincingly bring about the necessary transformation of Harry to the point that he truly becomes the man he must be to do final battle for the forces of good. I wonder if he will serve as the point of the spear that is comprised of many others who join forces with Harry to bring about the demise of V. The reason I state these concerns is that the series has offered the archetypal forms very effectively throughout and it has served as a great moralistic tale in which the young readers have an opportunity, just as in any myth, to see themselves in the characters and attempt to reach the heights the characters do. If the portray of Harry is to be convincing and continue to serve that mythic service of holding lessons for all, Harry will need to be much more convincingly drawn to serve that laudable goal. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Tue Aug 30 09:21:17 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:21:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's dream in PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139086 > Christina wrote: > Considering what we now know about Snape, Draco Malfoy, and > Horcruxes, what does everyone make of the dream Harry had his first > night at Hogwarts? It seems like one of those passages we should be > able to dig through for clues, but I can't think of any theories > this could lend itself to. It hardly seems like something that JKR > would put in just to show Harry's distress. > > > > > Bookworm: > It's funny that you mention this ? I was thinking about > Harry's dreams a few days ago. Didn't he also have one that > ended with Ron and Hermione wearing crowns? [reminder to self ? > it's time to reread PS/SS again] > > I do agree that JKR put this dream in for a reason, probably > foreshadowing. Eloise: I was also thinking about this recently and not for the first time wondering if it had to do with his actual memory of the night the AK backfired. We learn later what that flash of green light is and Harry experiences it again when under the influence of Dementor's/the Boggart!Dementor, when other bits of the memory also become clearer. JKR has more or less told us in the TLC/Mugglenet interview that there was indeed someone else at Godric's Hollow: ................................................................ http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet- anelli-3.htm: >>MA: Was there anyone else present in Godric's Hollow the night Harry's parents were killed? JKR: No comment.<< ................................................................... When the subject of a possible witness first (I think) came up, a very long time ago, there was speculation that it was Lupin who was there, because he questioned Harry about hearing his father's voice. The idea was that under the influence of the Dementor! Boggart, Harry actually heard *Lupin*, not James, warning of Voldemort's arrival. What if, in fact, it was Snape and Harry recalls this? A problem with this scenario is that he would have had to stay out of Voldemort's sight/be in disguise ( Polyjuice?) or he'd be dead by now. Or else having overheard Voldemort's plans, he could have rushed to GH only to arrive a fraction too late, able only to witness, not fight. It could have been he who alerted the Order, allowing Hagrid to get there so quickly (*even ahead of Sirius*, who had gone there as soon as he realised there was a problem). I wonder what would have happened if Voldemort had demanded that he accompany him? I know that Voldemort obviously chose to kill the Potters personally, but it's not unlikely that he took DEs with him. And the one who had alerted him to the danger posed by Harry in the first place might have been "rewarded" by the privilege of being present at the event. Snape might have been in a postion where there was nothing that he could do other than watch or wind up dead too (which Sirius no doubt would say he should have.) It is certainly interesting that in the dream Harry witnesses the flash of the curse, accompanied a vision of both Malfoy and Snape. Was Malfoy (sr) there, too (remembering that Draco does look like his father), accompanying his master and later retrieving his wand? ~Eloise From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 09:56:34 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:56:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's dream in PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139087 Christina: > (PS, page 130) > > "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very strange > dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking > to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it > was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in > Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it > tightened painfully - and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he > struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, > Snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst of green > light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking. > > "He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he > didn't remember the dream at all." Ceridwen: Obviously, the turban represents Voldemort. Now I'm wondering some things. I haven't read PS/SS in a while, but didn't Draco try to cozy up to Harry at first (he insulted Ron, which was *not* the way to go about it) - could that have been directed, instructed or suggested by Voldemort, who wanted Harry to have nearly the same experiences he had, in order to coax him over to LV's side?.. Of course, the turban could also represent the Sorting Hat and its suggestion that he would do well in Slytherin, with a Voldemort twist added in, for obvious reasons. And, as Harry grows older, the turban grows tighter - his true destiny gets closer. As of HBP, Malfoy is tasked to kill Dumbledore and bring Dementors into Hogwarts. Snape is the one who actually did kill Dumbledore. But I'm not betting on this dream in 1 presaging the reality in 6. Malfoy is the boy, Snape is the man (since Harry doesn't know Lucius at this time), they're both, at least according to Voldemort, on LV's side... "...whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst of green > light..." Voldemort is the high, cold laugh right before the burst of green light. This is memory. IMO. Ceridwen. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 30 10:01:35 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:01:35 -0400 Subject: Did Snape learn from Lily and James? Message-ID: <003b01c5ad49$cfca80e0$6bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 139088 Auria >When it is revealed that the HBP is Snape, it first appears that he was a gifted potions student and spell-crafter from the scribbled notes in the potions text book. However it occurred to me that maybe Snape was actually writing these tips and spells in his text book because he was learning and copying them from other students - namely Lily and James Potter. The canon for this is firstly we know that Lily was a gifted potions student from what Slughorn informs Harry. We also know that Snape was in the same classes - so maybe he just wrote down everything that Lily did during their classes which deviated and improved from the text book instructions. This fits with Snape's character as he seems very ambitious and competitive, and would of course claim credit for himself if he could. CathyD: Actually, I've been wondering along the same lines myself. Or maybe wandering? I've come to the conclusion that Snape and Lily were friends (possibly prior to the incident in the Pensive scene, I think it ended then). I do not want it to be anything more than friends so I won't go there. It does seem to me, however, that JKR is intimating someone other than James Potter when she answered this question: How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows? JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically. I can see them, with their heads together at Lily's house, working out Potions recipies, talking about the best way to repel Dementors. Was Lily tutoring Snape or vice versa? Somehow I think you could get away with doing Potions at home and it not being considered underage magic by the MoM. Lily was raised a Muggle until 11 so she would no doubt know how to start a fire under a cauldron without use of a wand. >We also know that the spell 'Levicorpus' which Harry found written in his textbook, was performed by James Potter on Snape as seen by Harry in the pensieve in book 5. So perhaps Snape scribbled down this jinx in his potions text book after he had been a victim of it, in case it came in handy for him later? CathyD: I don't think that James and Snape would have been involved in any study sessions together. I think what happened is that Lily possibly saw the spell in Snape's book during one of their study sessions and used it on a friend (like Harry did) who asked what it was, then the friend used it on another friend. Lupin said there were a few months in his fifth year where you couldn't walk down the hall without being hoisted up by your ankle. I think, once someone other than Snape knew it, it spread like wild-fire. I can't see it being James' spell when Snape gets so wound up about Harry using it against him at the end of HBP. >>In other words its possible that the tips and spells Harry is learning from the HBP text book in fact originated from his parents talents, and that Snape just copied them down and learnt from them himself, but of course would never admit it. CathyD: I actually see it as Snape's work, apart from possibly some of the Potions that he could have worked on with Lily as I mentioned above. I think the spells are Snape's, and Snape's alone (or some may have been his Mother's). I certainly can't see Snape taking credit for Levicorpus if he didn't create it, especially in light of James using it against him and his rant at Harry, end of HBP, about James using Snape's own spells against him and Harry doing the same. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 30 10:23:57 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:23:57 -0400 Subject: Rows in the Forest - what might one reveal about the other. Message-ID: <003f01c5ad4c$ee9ddcd0$6bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 139089 Valky: >>So to wrap up. >>Snape is simply telling DD what he *thinks* is the best course of action. ie I (Snape)should work *with* the boy, he's not up to it alone. Dumbledore disagrees and says that the WW is better served by Snape doing Voldies will. Maybe it is keeping Peter Pettigrew safely in the service of Harry. It could be something else but this seems to fit. CathyD: Snipping all the big parts and just getting down to brass tacks. I think you may be on to something, here, Valky. I've been pondering Wormtail at the Snape residence. It seemed odd to me that we are given to believe that Wormtail resides there even when Snape is at Hogwarts. (When JKR was asked what happened to Wormtail she replied "You'll find out in book six.") I can't imagine Snape letting him stay there unless there is another reason. Voldemort has apparently given Wormtail to Snape as some sort of assistant. Assisting Snape to do what? I think Wormtail probably thinks he's been sent there to spy on Snape but to what end as he seems quite frightened of even the thought of being back in front of Voldemort? And really, I'm not sure how much company Snape would have under normal circumstances, what did Wormtail think he was going to overhear on a normal day? Voldemort must know of Wormtail having a debt to Harry, he's the most accomplished Legillimens the world has ever seen ;-) . I think Snape has somehow convinced Voldemort that Wormtail is best off with him, out of Voldemort's way, out of earshot of any future plans that may be put in place, away from any situation that may arise where Wormtail could re-pay that debt --- and well placed for Snape (and Dumbledore) to keep Wormtail safe until he needed. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 10:36:06 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:36:06 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee7050829181471d62533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139091 Lady Indigo: It has nothing to do with JKR's intentions there; often things like that are dismissed, but to me that's what it was. I'm not talking about being dangled upside-down in public and humiliated, though that's bound to hurt anyone; I'm talking about where James threatens to take his pants down. If you feel at all sexually exposed, that's enough to warrent the term for me. We're all affected by things differently, and I've seen and heard of people damaged by less. So I can only hope James didn't do this. vmonte responds: Yes, I don't like what James and gang do to Snape in this memory either. I was also very uncomfortable when James threatened to expose Snape--it was wrong--and it bothered me emmensly. I'm in the middle of rereading the books right now and I've also seen this type of behavior in Snape's interaction with the children--Harry in particular. I know people have been saying that Harry has been wrong about Snape throughout the books, but I just don't see it. Now that we know that Snape is a great legimens/occlumens I'm struck by the many times (even in book 1) Harry has felt that Snape was invading his mind and extracting information. Harry always feels it and it makes him feel violated. "Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times he wondered whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible (I'm reminded of JKR's comment that Snape is a "deeply horrible" person) to Harry. Could Snape possibly know they'd found out about the Sorceror's Stone? Harry didn't see how he could--yet he sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds" (p221, SS). "Harry wondered whether he could slip his Invisibility Cloak back on, thereby gaining his seat at the long Gryffindor table (which, inconveniently, was the farthest from the entrance hall) without being noticed. As though he had read Harry's mind, however, Snape said, "No cloak. You can walk in so that everyone sees you, which is what you wanted, I'm sure" (p162, Snape Victorious, HBP). I can't help but feel that this is like "mind rape." It makes me also feel very bad for Ginny who had to endure this kind of "emotional rape" for a whole year. I agree that James was wrong, but Snape is no better. Vivian From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 30 11:03:07 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:03:07 -0400 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? Message-ID: <004301c5ad52$671acba0$6bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 139092 Eggplant: Dumbledore said Snape was sorry he had a part in the murder of Harry's parents, but can that be true? CathyD: Yes, I think it can, but I know you disagree, Eggplant. What Dumbledore actually said was: "'Please let me finish. Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his muderous quest were people that Professer snape knew, that they were your mother and father -- .. You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --" It was Harry who misrepresented Dumbledore's words when he gave the information in the Hospital Wing. He said "Snape passed Voldemort the information that made Voldemort hunt down my mum and dad. [true]. Then Snape told Dumbledore he hadn't realized what he was doing [Dumbledore never said that], he was really sorry he'd done it [true from Dumbledore's words], sorry that they were dead [Dumbledore never said that, either]." In fact, Snape knew exactly what he was doing when he initially passed the information to Voldemort. It was after realizing what Voldemort was going to do with the information, that Snape was filled with remorse/regret an returned to the good side, to the only person he knew who could help him - Dumbledore. Snape wasn't 'sorry that they were dead' as Harry said above, because at the time Snape turned to Dumbledore, James and Lily weren't dead, and Snape and Dumbledore did everything they could do to keep them un-dead. Now after the fact, I think Snape is sorry for his part in James and Lily's deaths and for what he started in motion by passing the information to Voldemort. I am certain he sees in Harry, not only Lily's eyes, and James' looks, but the knowledge that what Harry was on that first day of school was all down to his, Snape's, actions ten years previous. Imagine, being reminded every day, for six years, of the mistake you made years before. His response to Harry, the snarkiness, the nastiness, is the only way Snape knows how to deal with what he is feeling, distancing himself, making Harry despise him in return so Snape has a reason to contine his treatment of him, and keep himself even more distant. I am just as certain that Snape's regret is tied into the reason he was so hopeful of catching Sirius in PoA. His response to Sirius in the Shrieking Shack wasn't just because he'd caught the kid who pulled the prank. No. It was because he'd caught the man who he believed gave up James and Lily Potter to Lord Voldemort, after he, Snape, did everything he could, along with Dumbledore, to keep the Potters safe. He wanted vengence. Snape had done everything he could to protect James, Lily and Harry and here, James' best friend betrayed him, and Snape was going to make sure Sirius got what he deserved. Now, I know you don't agree with any of this Eggplant, and that is fine, I'm not trying to persuade you. I know you can't be swayed in your position on Snape any more than I can be swayed in mine...at least not until JKR states positively what side Snape is on. CathyD - who wishes she hadn't already used all her posts today because she has something to say about Slughorn - thanks to hg for making me spend all day yesterday thinking about Slughorn instead of Snape. It made a nice change...almost as good as a rest. ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 11:06:17 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:06:17 -0000 Subject: Rows in the Forest - what might one reveal about the other. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139093 Valky: > And lets piece together things we didn't > know then with what we may or may not know now. *(big snip)* > Any takers? Ceridwen: I'm afraid this might be post number four. I lose track of time. If it is, I will dutifully braid my toes. I'm wondering, after reading down this thread a bit, if the argument Hagrid overhears and reports (who knows how faithfully he reported it?) is about Dumbledore hunting horcruxes (or, possibly, if Snape doesn't know exactly what he's doing, he does know Dumbledore is doing something dangerous), and Snape not wanting anything more to do with Dumbledore placing himself in danger? Dumbledore replies something about investigating Snape's own house. There's an old saying, 'See to your own house', meaning, don't worry about what I'm doing, take care of your own problems. It may be worded a bit differently, but it could mean the same thing: for Snape to put his own affairs in order, do his job, and leave Dumbledore to do the same. I do like the idea of an echo, though. JKR likes to do that. Could part of the echo be Hagrid hearing only part, and misinterpreting it, a la Harry in PS/SS? If so, or if he accidentally misrepresents it due to his own misunderstanding, then we're getting a very skewed version of the event, and need to do even more sifting to get the true meaning of the scene. I'll be interested to see what else other people have thought of. Ceridwen. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 30 11:09:11 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:09:11 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.'s identity confirmed? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139094 Hickengruendler: The Harry Potter Lexicon claimed, that a trustworthy source has confirmed to them, that R.A.B. is indeed Regulus Black, and that his middle name is Arcturus. (Which would make the translation of Regulus' first and middle name "King Arthur".) See here for more informations: http://www.hp- lexicon.org/wizards/regulus.html I want to add that the Lexicon normally is a very trustworthy source, and that I'm sure they wouldn't put any speculation as a fact, if they hadn't a really good reason to do so. Therefore IMO this information is likely to be true, even we can't be 100% certain right now. Hickengruendler From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Tue Aug 30 11:11:33 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:11:33 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082918515ac0cc87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139095 lady.indigo wrote: > But the point is that it was true, and Harry's acknowledgement of this would have allowed for a more beneficial relationship with someone who, while certainly not the nicest person, was for all Harry knew a very useful and important resource prior to Book 6. Certainly someone trusted in Dumbledore's eyes... dan: James' daily routine probably included any number of things Snape would find irritating, just as Draco finds much of what Harry does, like walking into the bookstore and being noticed by the psychopath Lockhart, irritating. His relationship to Snape was probably like Harry's with Draco - intermittent, and nasty. If Snape spent his time inventing cruel dark curses, James pranced. And this, in terms of Harry's behaviour to Snape, means what? What is Harry supposed to do? Snape has not offered any knowledge to Harry besides his classwork. If he is "helping" in the background, he is doing like work-to-rule, under protest. Someone mentioned Snape was "good" cause he got stretchers in POA. No, that only means he knows how to get stretchers. He hasn't acknowledged his responsibility in the demise of Harry's parents, to Harry. Snape knew about the prophecy orb, cause he knew about the prophecy and the DOM, obviously. I know someone on this list will disagree, somehow... Nevertheless, Snape told Harry there was nothing in the DOM that concerned him. What could be the point of this? No one has answered this the two times I've asked previously on HP4GU. And Harry is supposed to offer to this hideous man with a DE history and a personal culpability in Harry's orphan status some kind of gesture of understanding, a man who has conveniently forgot to tell Harry anything at all about his role in the death of Harry parents? What gesture is being asked for here? What gesture would be appropriate? I think Harry's response IS appropriate, and now that we know Snape ratted to Voldemort about the prophecy, Harry knows it too, he now understands why Snape has been the way he has. lady.indigo wrote: > The fact that Snape's use of Sectumsempra involves a single cut on James's face when it's shown to be capable of much worse is very telling, too, about how little Snape either was able to or chose to retaliate. dan: And this means what? I don't understand what you're saying here, about Snape. He controlled the curse, otherwise the use of it would have been noted and punished, if James' had been endangered. He'd have been expelled, maybe. Certainly his deep connection with dark magic would have been outed. So, he remains calculating even in his anger. But what do you think that implies? You haven't stated what this point means. lady.indigo wrote: > Even if the memory doesn't symbolize all we can learn about Snape being abused as a child for time and length's sake, Harry found refuge at Hogwarts, where he was among friends, father/grandfather figures, reknown and acclaim. Snape didn't have any of this. He was hurt by others pretty much up to taking the Dark Mark and beyond. dan: Snape found refuge at Hogwarts too. As for your last statement, I think it's important to note that the memory was Snape's worst. Not the ratting that led to the death of Harry's parents, not joining the DE, etc. What do you think this means? What in the scene makes it his worst memory? If you are saying this kind of stuff went on all the time, something about that scene must have been different. The list generally thinks the part that makes it the worst has to do with lily - or with the fact that his own curses are turned on him - that he's been found out, in a manner of speaking. But what do you think? dan From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Tue Aug 30 11:17:13 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:17:13 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: <004301c5ad52$671acba0$6bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139096 Cathy Drolet quoted: > But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his muderous quest were people that Professer snape knew, that they were your mother and father... dan: Um, Harry gets it 100% right, actually, since it hardly matters that Snape doesn't know which boy LV would hunt, or that Snape kenw or did not know them. I mean, really, it doesn't matter. If it was some unknown boy to some unknown parents LV was going to hunt and kill, would that have been peachy? Harry is giving Snape far more compassion here than Albus - he's giving Snape a general justification, where Albus is giving a specific one regarding a specific victim, but leaving Snape still not giving a damn about "some" victim. dan From muellem at bc.edu Tue Aug 30 11:50:35 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:50:35 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" > wrote: > > colebiancardi: > > > Also, on the physical education side, I never read about a > > Wizard/Witch jogging, running, working out - yet, not all > > Wizards/Witches are big huge lumps of fat with no muscle tone. I > > wonder if there is there a spell for weight-loss and keeping in > shape? > > Geoff: > The point is whether this is relevant to the story. We have had > comments in the past about no reference being made to matters such as > Harry and the others having a bath. > > Is the fact that Harry is in the bath or Ginny is running round the > edge of the Qudditch pitch each morning a piece in the jigsaw of > beating Voldemort? Should we be told that Ron has gone off to shave? > > I walk about 5 miles a day with my dogs but I don't make a great > issue of telling everyone that I have done this or that I try to have > a balanced diet. It's a part of everyday life. you do realize that my post was tongue-in-cheek? However, since Rowling does give up many details about everyday life - such as Molly's cooking & cleaning techniques, I thought it would be interesting to read about it. I know it is not important to the story, but neither is showing how to peel potatoes with a wand :) colebiancardi From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Aug 30 12:39:47 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:39:47 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139098 Ceridwen: > I always read it that Harry has difficulty > with the niceties of life because of his > upbringing, or lack thereof. houyhnhnm: I see Harry almost as a feral child with respect to socialization. He's a kid who's had his back to the wall all his life. Given that, I think it's extraordinary that his impulses toward those smaller and weaker than himself are basically kind. I agree with Dumbledore that he is an exceptional person. But he is very confrontational with adults. I expect that if he were not the *famous Harry Potter* he would have problems with most of his teachers, not just Snape. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 12:48:12 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:48:12 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082918515ac0cc87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139099 Lady Indigo: > ...But the point is that it was true, and Harry's acknowledgement of > this would have allowed for a more beneficial relationship with > someone... What, in Harry's experience, (Not your own, I'm not trying to tell you that you aren't right, you may well be.) do you think would lead Harry to believe that this might work? As opposed to, say, Snape's taking it as a weakness and using it to torment Harry further? Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 13:07:22 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:07:22 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139101 > > colebiancardi: > > > Also, on the physical education side, I never read about a > > > Wizard/Witch jogging, running, working out - yet, not all > > > Wizards/Witches are big huge lumps of fat with no muscle tone. colebiancardi again: > you do realize that my post was tongue-in-cheek? However, since > Rowling does give up many details about everyday life - such as > Molly's cooking & cleaning techniques, I thought it would be > interesting to read about it. I know it is not important to the > story, but neither is showing how to peel potatoes with a wand :) Amiable Dorsai: It occurs to me that we do know about one physical activity--Quidditch. Harry, who is quite fit, is physically exhausted at the end of one of Oliver Wood's practice sessions, so it can be physically demanding. Do we ever hear about pick-up games, or is it only house team members who are known to benefit from this? Ron was able to use the pitch in book 5, even though he wasn't a team member, so it seems that pick-up games wouldn't be against the rules. Amiable Dorsai From fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 07:03:55 2005 From: fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com (fitzchivalryhk) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:03:55 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139102 --- "eggplant107" wrote: > Monsters of Snape's magnitude are not created overnight, > I have a very strong hunch that even at the age of 15 he had done > things that well deserved the punishment he received at the hands of > James. I once thought James a bully, I no longer do. Severus's character is not created overnight. His character was most probably created by his parents negligance, and the bullying he received from the Mauraders and other fellow students. We were shown how Sirius and James attacked Severus unprovoked, but we were never shown how Severus hurt other students when he was young. While Sirius accused Severus of immersing deep in the dark arts, Sirius never said anything about Severus cursing students other than James. Given Sirius' hatred towards Severus, wouldn't it be a perfect excuse for him to explain away why they bullied Severus? The fact that Sirius never took this line of defense suggests that Severus did not do anything that deserved the attack and humiliation brought by the Mauraders. > Let me challenge the good Snape people for a minute and I won't even > bring up the small matter of him murdering the greatest and kindest > living wizard. Dumbledore said Snape was sorry he had a part in the > murder of Harry's parents, but can that be true? Let's put the best > possible face on it and say he didn't deliberately perform actions > that he thought would lead to the death of the Potter's, he's still at > least as culpable as a drunk driver who killed someone, or an engineer > who made a design mistake causing a bridge to collapse with > casualties. If you had made such a blunder that made a one year old > boy an orphan would you devote 6 years of your life trying to make > that boy as miserable as possible when he was a teenager? Snape did. I think you have made two wrong comparisons in your post. The only person who can be compared to the driver or the enginner in the above examples were Voldemort. Voldemort was the one who was directly responsible for the death of Lily and James, not Snape. Please do not let your hatred towards Snape blind you from the most culpable figure in this incident, Voldemort. If we put Snape in the example, he would be the bartender who provided the alcohol to the drunk driver, without knowing that he would drive a vehicle aftewards, or the construction worker who built the bridge according to the instruction of the engineer. Was he partly responsible for the death of Lily and James? Perhaps. Was he the main culprit your post seems to suggest? I think not. fitz From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 12:58:37 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:58:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dkeeberlibryn" wrote: > As a librarian, I have read all the books in the HP series, and > while I enjoyed this one, I came away with a nagging feeling that at > the end, Harry just wasn't ready to battle V in the next book. In > each book, Rowling did a very good job of showing an appropriate > image of HP for the age he was in each book. So, too, this one, but > I just don't feel that he is prepared to do battle with the most > powerful evil wizard in history as he stands. Certainly, in the time > between now and the advent of the next title, he will grow, but when > you look at H's skill level, the fact that as a rule he needs help > or that he stumbles into the solution that saves his life, it just > doesn't seem plausible that he will be powerful enough, in control > of his emotions enough and wise enough to do battle. HUGE SNIP Mimbeltonia: I have been thinking along the same lines as you, but I seem to end up with the conclusion that this is because what makes Harry able to "vanquish the dark lord" will not be the skills that Dumbledore had and Harry doesn't, but must be something Harry has and even Dumbledore didn't. Maybe it is connected with: That he DOES get help in these situations? That he is alone in the world (read family), but able to find close and loyal friends, not just loving and respecting followers? That he is _not_ a fully fledged wizard? Maybe he needs _not_ to be in control of his emotions? Or something else along such lines. I do believe that if Harry is now really ready to fight Voldemort better than anyone else could, then his young spurs of wisdom and DA accomplishments are but helpful tools, not the only means of sucess. He must in his innocence or youthfulness be able to find a way the wiser and more powerful would not see or be able to walk. What do you think?? -Mimbeltonia From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 13:48:06 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:48:06 -0000 Subject: Moral, Immoral, and Amoral: Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139104 Moral, Immoral, and Amoral: Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape Amoral: "Lacking moral sensibility, not caring about right and wrong." American Heritage? Dictionary Ever since I started reading the Harry Potter books I have never been able to shake the feeling that Snape reminded me of the character Iago, from "Othello." Iago is a very complex, "amoral" villain, very different from the "immoral" Voldemort. Immoral villains are easy to spot. You can understand what motivates them?everything is black and white. Amoral villains, however, are complex and often difficult to understand. They are often more devious and manipulative. Iago is in almost every scene of "Othello" and has a hand in almost all of what happens in the play. Iago also manipulates the other characters like puppets. He is a great villain because his motivation does not rely on an immoral conscience but rather his lack of conscience. Snape also seems to have a hand in everything--although you find out about his actions after the fact. J. K. Rowling's Snape is "genius" in that he is not pure evil/immoral; he, like Iago, also seems to be amoral--without a conscience. Unlike the two-dimensional Voldemort, Snape's motivations are an enigma. What motivates Snape? Do we really know? What made him become a DE? And what made him switch sides? Finding out this information is key to figuring out Snape. Whether you believe that Snape is a liar, or an evil or good person, his behavior is often a riddle. Why is he so "sadistic" and "deeply horrible" to Harry and the other children? Why does Dumbledore trust him if he is responsible for making Voldemort focus his attention on the Potter family? And why are the events at Godric's Hollow Snape's greatest regret if he hated James? We don't really know why Snape does what he does, but there are some clues. J.K. Rowling has given us a lot of information about how Snape feels towards other characters in the Harry Potter series. It's safe to assume that Snape loathed James as well as many other people: people in the Order (Sirius, Lupin), the DEs (Bellatrix, Wormtail), and in the ministry (Umbridge). The only person Snape NEVER speaks about is Lily. In fact, the only time we see Snape interact with Lily is during "Snape's Worst Memory," a memory Snape tries to hide from Harry. A lot happens in this memory, including a moment in which Lily stands up for Snape, and yells at James and gang for being bullies. Snape also calls Lily a "Mudblood" in this memory. We know that Snape will become a Death Eater after Hogwarts, so this behavior seems appropriate. But is it? If Snape were truly a Voldemort follower would he call himself the "Half-Blood Prince?" I don't think so. Tom Riddle did everything in his power to erase his Muggle father from his name. He even kills Tom Riddle Sr. in an attempt to conceal/erase his past. Snape, on the other hand, keeps his half- blood origin in his new moniker. Why? It's simple really, it's because he has nothing against "Mudbloods" he just lashed out at Lily for some reason, (embarrassment, jealousy, resentment?), and said the thing that would hurt her the most. So, why did he become a murdering DE you say? Because he wanted Lily Potter! I've resisted the Snape loves Lily theory since Order of the Phoenix came out because I was convinced that someone with so much hate and resentment like Snape would be incapable of loving anyone; then The Half-Blood Prince came out and a new thought occurred to me. One of the themes in the book is romance?natural and unnatural. We also see lots of jealousy. Ron is jealous of Hermione's old relationship with Krum, Hermione is jealous of Ron and Lavendar (Hermione even attacks Ron with birds she conjures), Harry is jealous of Dean and Ginny, etc. We also have unnatural love caused by a potion, and obsessive love in the form of Merope's attraction to Tom Riddle Sr. What does all this have to do with Snape? The answer is in the chapter titled: The Half-Blood Prince. It's when Slughorn mentions that obsessive love should never be underestimated, or taken lightly. "When you have seen as much of life as I have, you will not underestimate the power of obsessive love " (The Half-Blood Prince, Scholastic, page 186). Lily was a popular girl. Slughorn mentioned that she had exceptional talent at potions and that she had a very cheeky personality. I wonder if Snape liked her too? Was he consumed with jealousy when he found out that Lily loved James? Or did he think that James had somehow forced her into a relationship? (I'm reminded of what Harry thought after he first saw this memory. Harry had wondered how his mother could ever love someone like James and thought that perhaps James had forced her into their relationship.) And what would make someone like Snape turn into a DE anyway? Did he want something he could not get on his own? Did he want Lily? Did Snape make a pact with the devil? "If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed" (Tom Riddle, Chamber of Secrets, p310). Did Lily reject Snape? And did he have trouble dealing with her rejection? An amoral person lacks moral sensibility and does not care about right and wrong. Just think about Ron's "amoral" reaction to Harry while under the influence of the love potion. "I can't stop thinking about her!" said Ron hoarsely "I don't think she knows I exist," said Ron with a desperate gesture "Who are you talking about?" said Harry, with an increasing sense that all reason had dropped out of the conversation. "Romilda Vane," said Ron softly "I think I love her," said Ron in a strangled voice "I love her," repeated Ron breathlessly "This is really funny and everything," said Harry impatiently, "but joke's over, all right? Drop it." He turned to leave; he had got two steps toward the door when a crashing blow hit him on the right ear. Staggering, he looked around. Ron's fist was drawn right back Snape is obviously not under the influence of a love potion, but if he were amoral and wanted Lily, he would do whatever he could to attain his goal. In an amoral mind the "ends really do justify the means." Did Snape manipulate Voldemort into doing a favor for him? Did he want Lily and didn't care who got in his way? If Snape had an obsessive attraction to Lily he may have felt that James was not good enough for her. He may have had unrealistic hopes or fantasies. Yes, it's ridiculous and delusional?stalkers are like that. So, did Voldemort play this weakness against Snape? "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily?weak people, in other words? they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!" (OOTP, Occlumency, page 537) Is Snape talking about himself here? Did Voldemort promise Snape that he would let Lily live? Is this why Voldemort told Lily to step aside? Did Snape want James and Harry out of the way so that he could have Lily for himself? Obsessive love is unnatural. It can take over a person completely, and color the way they perceive the world. Snape may actually believe that James got what he deserved, while never understanding that what he did was wrong. Voldemort is an immoral person and he revels in it. Immoral people are easy to figure out. Eleven-year-old Tom Riddle bragged about how he was able to hurt people, and Dumbledore saw right through him. "I can make bad things happen to people who annoy me. I can make them hurt if I want to" (The Secret Riddle, page 271). Riddle is Dumbledore's exact opposite. Dumbledore is moral and Tom is immoral. Snape, however, is different. "I have played my part well," said Snape. "And you overlook Dumbledore's greatest weakness: He has to believe the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he embraced me with open arms?though, as I say, never allowing me nearer the Dark Arts than he could help I am pleased to say, however, that Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were. But through all these years, he has never stopped trusting Severus Snape, and therein lies my great value to the Dark Lord "(Half-Blood Prince, Spinner's End, page 31) The best liars always mix truth in whenever they can. Is it possible that Dumbledore believed "Snape's story" because Snape told him that he was in love with Lily and would never want any harm to come to her? It's rather chilling to think that he may have wanted Lily alive while also wanting Harry and James dead. Is this the deal he made with Voldemort? If so, Voldemort failed miserably. I wonder what Snape thinks of Voldemort now? I keep thinking of Harry's comment to Dumbledore regarding Snape: "Haven't you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?" Snape's tendency to hold grudges is epic in proportion. I wonder where his grudge will take him next? Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 14:01:42 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:01:42 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139105 Fitz wrote: If we put Snape in the example, he would be the bartender who provided the alcohol to the drunk driver, without knowing that he would drive a vehicle aftewards, or the construction worker who built the bridge according to the instruction of the engineer. Was he partly responsible for the death of Lily and James? Perhaps. Was he the main culprit your post seems to suggest? I think not. vmonte responds: I see what you are trying to say here but your analogy is not exactly right. Snape knew that Voldemort was going to target someone. So, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt here, he would still be responsible for the death of some family somewhere. Since Snape was a DE he may even have possibly known which families had thwarted Voldemort 3 times. I'm guessing that's a pretty short list that includes Neville and Harry's parents. Vivian From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Aug 30 14:10:45 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:10:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139106 "dkeeberlibryn" wrote: > I wonder if he will serve as the point of the spear that is > comprised of many others who join forces with Harry to bring about > the demise of V. Derek: I think that's very possible. I think you're right in saying that Harry doesn't seem anywhere near ready for a full-on, one-to-one battle with LV. But I'm not sure he needs to be. I don't think it's "realistic" to expect Harry to somehow become a more powerful wizard than LV by the age of 17. I've just re-read GF, and while reading it, I was struck by how much Harry's success in the tournament tasks is due to his friendships. He's always been a great friend to Hagrid, and Hagrid helps him by showing him the dragons for the first task. He helped Cedric by warning him about the dragons, and Cedric helps him by suggesting he listen to the egg in the bath. He freed Dobby from the dreadful Malfoys, and Dobby helps Harry by giving him the Gillyweed. Later, Harry helps Cedric against Krum and against the giant spider, as a result of which, Cedric wants Harry to take the cup. In short, I think Harry has built alliances throughout his life by being helpful, courageous, and doing the right thing (for the most part). Voldemort, on the other hand, uses the Cruciatus curse on his closest followers... And I suspect this difference, in the end, will be the one that counts. I think we may very well find, when all is said and done, that Voldemort stands alone, betrayed by some followers (Pettigrew and/or Draco Malfoy), deceived by some he thought were followers (Snape), and abandoned by all the others. While at the same time, Harry stands with a virtual army of friends at his back, all willing to risk their lives to stand by Harry, while Voldemort's "friends" are deserting him like rats off a sinking ship. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 15:14:30 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:14:30 -0000 Subject: Moral, Immoral, and Amoral: Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139107 Vivian wrote: "Moral, Immoral, and Amoral: Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape Amoral: "Lacking moral sensibility, not caring about right and wrong." American Heritage? Dictionary Ever since I started reading the Harry Potter books I have never been able to shake the feeling that Snape reminded me of the character Iago, from "Othello." Iago is a very complex, "amoral" villain, very different from the "immoral" Voldemort. Immoral villains are easy to spot. You can understand what motivates them?everything is black and white. Amoral villains, however, are complex and often difficult to understand. They are often more devious and manipulative." Del replies: I disagree with your classification. The way I see it, it's LV who is amoral, while Snape is immoral. First off, if anyone is amoral in the Potterverse, it's LV *by definition*. LV is a sociopath (by JKR's own admission, and judging by his behaviour), and one of the main characteristics of a sociopath is that they lack morality, that they are amoral. Quirrell said it (paraphrase): LV taught him that "there is no right and wrong, only power and those too weak to use it". That's LV's motto, that was *always* LV's motto. No right and wrong, only power and those too weak to use it. No good and evil, no good magic and Dark Magic, only powerful magic and those too weak to use it. LV is not immoral, he's amoral. He's not doing bad stuff just because it's bad stuff, he's only doing what serves him best. Sometimes what serves him best is evil, but sometimes it is good, and he's not bothered by acting good at all. When playing the part of the good little orphan was what served him best, that's what he did (contrarily to Snape, who never understood the power of playing a part). When playing the obedient and diligent employee was what served him best, that's what he did. When seducing an old lady was what served him best, that's what he did. When playing the humble would-be teacher who puts himself at the command of DD (DD, of all people!) was what he thought would serve him best, that's the part he played. And if he had found a proof that Love Magic is indeed the strongest magic in the world, I'm sure he would have studied it. IOW, LV is not against good, he's not deliberately choosing evil, he's only choosing what will serve him best to attain his goals. Remember that he was even willing to let Lily live! He only killed her because she was preventing him from getting to his goal, Harry. Snape, on the other hand, does evil because he *enjoys* it. He had no *logical* reason to attack Harry the way he did right from their first lesson. You can bet that LV would never have acted like that. LV would at least have taken the time to observe Harry, and then he would have reflected on what was the best way to attain his goal concerning Harry, whatever it would have been (destroying him, seducing him, corrupting him, using him as a spy, whatever). But Snape immediately went to work belittling Harry, because that's what gave him *pleasure*. Hurting Harry gave him too much pleasure to refrain from it for the sake of a greater purpose. Same with the Occlumency lessons. LV would have been way too happy to have a rightful reason to invade Harry's thoughts to throw it away like Snape did. But Snape chose to nurse his hurt feelings and to punish Harry, because that gave him *more satisfaction*. LV would never have bothered bullying Neville, first because that risked putting him at odds with the Headmaster and second because it furthered no hidden plan (no, I don't believe in the "toughening Neville up" theories - Neville grew up with his Gran and his great-uncle Algie, he doesn't need any further toughening.) But Snape just can't help himself, he gives him too much pleasure to humiliate Neville, so he keeps at it. LV doesn't get a kick out of hurting people just for the sake of it. When he hurts people, it's always to further his agenda, to somehow get more power. But Snape enjoys hurting people for the sake of hurting them. He doesn't need a further motive, just seeing them hurt is enough. So IMO Snape is IMmoral, while LV is Amoral. To answer some of your questions: "Unlike the two-dimensional Voldemort, Snape's motivations are an enigma. What motivates Snape? Do we really know? What made him become a DE? And what made him switch sides? Finding out this information is key to figuring out Snape. " Snape's motivation, to me, is simply Snape and what is best for Snape. In that way, he seems amoral. However, the huge difference I see between Snape and LV is that Snape is aware that selfishness and selfcenteredness are bad, and that there are many other different kinds of attitude to choose from, while LV isn't. I believe that Snape *chose* to be selfish and self-centered, just like Peter did, while LV never chose to be so because he never saw any alternative. Snape knew that there are other courses to pursue but to further one's own interests, other more noble, better courses. And yet he chose to further his own interests at the expense of everything else. LV, OTOH, was never aware that he could devote his life to anything else but his own interests. "Whether you believe that Snape is a liar, or an evil or good person, his behavior is often a riddle. Why is he so "sadistic" and "deeply horrible" to Harry and the other children?" Easy: because he enjoys it. He's sadistic, he enjoys hurting people. Many many people have a sadictic side, including me, but most of us try to refrain that side of us, because we want to do what IS good instead of what FEELS good. But Snape is immoral, he doesn't strive to do good, he will favour what feels good over what is good anytime, unless he has a serious reason to stop himself. "Why does Dumbledore trust him if he is responsible for making Voldemort focus his attention on the Potter family?" Because there's something BIG for Snape in DD's trust (I have an idea about what that something big is, I'll post on it one of these days). Something so big that DD can safely trust that nothing else will be more alluring to Snape. JMO, of course. Del From ibchawz at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 16:39:36 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:39:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's dream in PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139108 Ceridwen writes: Obviously, the turban represents Voldemort. Now I'm wondering some things. I haven't read PS/SS in a while, but didn't Draco try to cozy up to Harry at first (he insulted Ron, which was *not* the way to go about it) - could that have been directed, instructed or suggested by Voldemort, who wanted Harry to have nearly the same experiences he had, in order to coax him over to LV's side?.. ibchawz responds: I don't really think that Quirrell!Mort would have approached Draco with this task. Draco would have reported this back to Lucius. I don't think LV would have wanted any of his Death Eaters seeing him in his weakened, parasitic state. Since LV controls through intimidation instead of true loyalty, the Death Eaters could have seen his weakness as an opportunity to destroy him and end their Death Eater status. LV waits until GOF, when he is powerful again, to summon his Death Eaters. Ceridwen writes: As of HBP, Malfoy is tasked to kill Dumbledore and bring Dementors into Hogwarts. ibchawz responds: I have a slight technical correction. Malfoy did not bring *Dementors* into Hogwarts. He brought *Death Eaters*. I'm sure you were "thinking it right / typing it wrong" :). ibchawz From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 17:08:40 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:08:40 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: <004301c5ad52$671acba0$6bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139109 "fitzchivalryhk" fitzchivalryhk at ... Wrote: > Voldemort was the one who was directly > responsible for the death of Lily > and James, not Snape. There is no way Snape can claim to be guilt free in this incident, he may not have known that passing the information would lead to the death of the Potters but Snape is not stupid, he must have known it would place some infant and his parents in grave danger. > His character was most probably > created by his parents negligance, > and the bullying he received from > the Mauraders and other fellow students. Lots of people get bullied and lots of people have less than perfect parents, but they don't turn into a Snape, they don't become murderers. And even if you're right, so what? Explaining why somebody is a monster does not make them one bit less of a monster. "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Imagine, being reminded every day, > for six years, of the mistake you > made years before. His response to Harry, > the snarkiness, the nastiness, is the > only way Snape knows how to deal > with what he is feeling It's entirely possible that you're right and that is the source of Snape's dreadful behavior toward Harry, but I don't understand why you couldn't rephrase your statement above by simply saying Snape is evil. Any halfway decent human being would have gone out of his way to be kind to a boy you had done such a great wrong, but Snape chose to do the opposite. Eggplant From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 17:03:40 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:03:40 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Life Debt Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139110 Or: Why Snape HAD to change sides when he discovered who LV was going to go after. We keep hearing about the Life Debt, but interestingly enough we are never told how it works. I doubt that's an oversight. We know that Snape owed a Life Debt to James for saving him from Werewolf!Lupin. And we can suppose that Snape hadn't managed to repay that Debt by the time James died, because he supposedly tried to repay it by saving Harry in PS/SS (or so DD says). So first question: considering that James and Snape were fighting in opposing camps, and that James had already defied LV three times, doesn't it strike anyone as odd that Snape hadn't yet managed to repay his Debt? I'm sure he had several opportunities to save James's life. Including, of course, Godric's Hollow. So my personal conclusion is that Snape never managed to repay his Debt simply because he never *tried*. That's the simplest and most logical answer IMO. Second question: what happens when one is under a Life Debt? We know the WW doesn't take magical bonds lightly. You die if you break an Unbreakable Vow. Harry had to participate in the TWT because his name came out of the Goblet, no matter that all the rules were broken by that event. So I would suggest that something like a Life Debt is about, well, life. I don't think that one's life is at risk as long as they simply don't repay that Life Debt because Snape has survived 20 years since he contracted his own. So a Life Debt doesn't seem to affect one's survival. So how does it work? What could motivate anyone to repay a Life Debt, other than personal integrity? My personal guess is that a Life Debt has desastrous consequences (read: death) if you take part in the killing of the person you owe a Life Debt to. That would explain why Peter tried to convince LV of using anyone but Harry for his rebirthing potion: because Peter knew that he would die if he took part in the murder of Harry. And that would definitely explain why Snape was horror-struck when he realised who LV was going to go after. He realised that he would die if James died because of the information he (Snape) had passed. Sooo... Snape went to the only wizard who might be able to do something for him, DD. Explained his situation, explained that he would do *anything* to get out of that mess alive. Well, there was no getting LV off-track, both Snape and DD knew that. He *would* go after the Potters. Of course, the Potters would take protective measures, DD would do his best too, but, well, LV *was* the greatest Dark Wizard around, so chances were that he would get the Potters sooner or later. So here's what I think might have happened. DD proposed a very special transaction to Snape: a transfer of Life Debt. I'm not sure what the specifics of the procedure were. Maybe James owed a Life Debt to DD (not very hard to imagine, for me anyway), and DD remitted James's Debt in exchange for becoming the object of Snape's Debt. I'm not sure. But in the end, Snape ended up owing a Life Debt to DD, so that his own life wasn't at risk anymore should LV kill James because of the Prophecy. Of course, owing a Life Debt to DD meant that Snape couldn't work of his own accord for LV anymore, because anything he did as a DE could eventually lead to DD's demise. That's why Snape entered into DD's service, and why DD kept him close. The problem, when you owe a Life Debt to the greatest wizard alive, is that it is extremely hard to repay it. So Snape was now stuck at Hogwarts, unable to repay his Debt, and necessarily careful of doing anything that might endanger DD's life. As an aside, it is possible that Snape was so desperate of getting out of his Life Debt that he tried to repay his *original* Debt, the one to James, by saving Harry in PS/SS. His attempt was of course doomed to fail, first because his Debt was now to DD, and because the Debt to James most probably wouldn't have transferred to his son anyway. But this could a sign of how much Snape *loathed* being under this Debt. I also think that this Debt is the very reason DD wouldn't give the DADA post to Snape. First because he woulnd't want to risk losing Snape after a year (a Snape at his service was probably quite a valuable asset), and also because he was afraid Snape might use his power and authority as DADA Master to find a countercharm to the Life Debt. Now, let's jump to the beginning of HBP. DD goes Horcrux-hunting, and gets grievously, *mortally*, wounded. And who saves his life, but Snape? As a result, the Life Debt is repaid, Snape is free. He then makes it extremely clear that either DD finally gives him the DADA position, or he leaves. DD has no choice, if he wants to keep Snape close. He gives him the DADA job, and goes Potion-master-hunting with Harry. >From then on, DD can only *hope* that Snape will remain on the right side. He is exactly in the same position that Merope was, when she decided to stop feeding Love Potion to her husband: hoping that the long time spent acting in a specific way has changed the true nature of the person. DD hopes that after spending so much time working for the right guys, Snape has changed and has learned to put the Greater Good before his own ambitions and desires. Tough luck... Snape might be willing to keep helping DD as long as that doesn't interfere too much with his private plans or comfort, but that's about it. When faced with a choice between DD's life and his own, Snape chose his own. The only thing I can't directly link to this theory is Snape's strange reluctance to speak of Lily. I wonder if this has anything to do with the conditions surrounding the Transfer of the Debt. It could be that James had to give his permission for the Transfer, and that he did so only when Snape agreed to take an UV with Lily, that he would protect Harry. In that case, his trying to protect Harry in PS/SS would simply be a fulfillment of this Vow. So would his protecting Harry from the other DEs at the end of HBP. And the reason why Snape agreed to the Vow might be the same one why he won't talk of Lily: he liked her (not necessarily romatic love, I'm going more for friendship or something like that). That last hypothesis could also explain why Snape twitched when Narcissa pronounced the third item of her Vow. If Snape didn't know what the Task was (and I think he didn't), he might have thought that maybe Draco was supposed to kill *Harry*, in which case Snape would have been stuck between two diametrically opposed Vows. That would explain why he was so desperate to learn Draco's Task and plans, and why he even tried to sabotage them (by putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention). As others have pointed out, there was no time frame attached to the Vow, and we don't know that there was any attached to the Task either. So maybe Snape figured that if he could delay Draco long enough, DD would find a way to defeat LV and then one or both Vows would be automatically nullified. Disclaimer: this theory is just in the first stages of reflection, I do not claim that it is in any way foolproof. OK, shoot, now :-)! Del dons umbrella and ducks behind a barricade, awaiting the rotten tomatoes. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 30 17:23:17 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:23:17 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Fitz wrote: > If we put Snape in the example, he would be the bartender who provided the alcohol to the drunk driver, without knowing that he would drive a vehicle aftewards, or the construction worker who built the bridge according to the instruction of the engineer. Was he partly responsible for the death of Lily and James? Perhaps. Was he themain culprit your post seems to suggest? I think not. > > vmonte responds: > I see what you are trying to say here but your analogy is not exactly right. Snape knew that Voldemort was going to target someone. So, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt here, he would still be responsible for the death of some family somewhere. Since Snape was a DE he may even have possibly known which families had thwarted Voldemort 3 times. I'm guessing that's a pretty short list that includes Neville and Harry's parents. Pippin: Even Dumbledore was guilty of caring more about the lives of people he knows than those of nameless, faceless strangers. So if Snape did the right thing only when he realized that the victims were going to be people he knew, he was no worse than Dumbledore. Unless Snape knew when Harry was going to be born, how could he know to whom the prophecy would refer? We don't even know if James and Lily had already defied Voldemort three times when it was given, or if that too was in the future. It was also, according to Dumbledore, strictly Voldemort's decision whether to believe the prophecy or not. Snape is not responsible for that at all, though obviously he must have hoped that Voldemort would regard the information as important and reward him for it. We can also draw an analogy with Draco, who was dismayed that Voldemort would use the vanishing cabinets to smuggle Fenrir Greyback into the school, even though he himself had used the threat of Fenrir to intimidate Borgin. According to Dumbledore, Snape, knowing the prophecy, defected. IMO, that means that Snape has had to act, for seventeen years, as if he *didn't* believe the prophecy. If he acted, in thought, word or deed, as if he did believe it, then Voldemort who doesn't understand things like remorse or moral imperatives, but does understand fear and power, would never believe that Snape had not left him forever. Unfortunately, that means Snape has had to treat Harry the way 'Severus Snape, secretly unrepentant Death Eater' would treat a little, er, powerless person of no regard or importance, who was the son of a man he undoubtedly hated, a favorite of Albus Dumbledore's, and who had taken a dislike to Snape from the start, which he expressed by making faces, talking back, refusing to follow instructions, and accusing him behind his back of theft and attempted murder.( If Harry behaved like that with McGonagall, she'd have had him expelled by now. Or quit.) There is no doubt at all in my mind that Snape enjoys doing this. But that doesn't mean he does it with Voldemort's welfare in mind. Now, if Harry were my kid, would I have told him that he should apologize to Snape for prying in the pensieve? I think I would, though I wouldn't force him to do it. I would explain that it wouldn't mean he was conceding to any of Snape's allegations about his character, just that had indeed behaved wrongly and foolishly in this case. Since Harry already knows this, it's only dropping a childish charade not to admit it. Now granted, Harry is a child, which is a more socially acceptable reason for behaving childishly then chronic immaturity. And Dumbledore didn't suggest that he do it, but Dumbledore isn't Harry's mum. I can certainly hear a "You're as bad as he is" coming from her! Everyone thinks it's terribly moving when Harry is able to help the physically crippled Dumbledore, but somehow people are revolted that an emotionally crippled person should need aid from a healthy youngster, or, heaven forbid, be allowed to teach. But Jo has said she thinks it's important that children understand that adults have problems too, that they struggle. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 30 17:32:50 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:32:50 -0000 Subject: The Gleam! The Gleam! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139113 Dumbledore knew, when he heard that Voldemort had taken Harry's blood, that Voldemort would excuse Snape for not offing Harry when he had the chance, and therefore Snape could indeed resume his role as spy. Thus the gleam of triumph, and thus the reason said gleam has not yet been explained. If we knew why Dumbledore regarded Snape's re-insertion as his ace in the hole, we'd have a reason why Dumbledore would be willing to die to keep Snape's cover intact, so obviously we can't be told. Pippin From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Aug 30 17:40:13 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:40:13 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139114 I'm not going to pretend that I have done anywhere near the level of assessment of Snape's character that many on the list have done. Heck, I'm not even sure whether Snape is Evil!Snape or Good!Snape or Selfish!Snape or some combination thereof. But one thing I have a very strong hunch about is that the key to understanding Snape is contained in the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter of OP. Namely, why was that his worst memory? What element of that incident is the one so horrific to Snape that he considers it his worst memory? I can't shake the feeling that when we know for certain the answer to that question, we'll be able to determine which Snape is the Real!Snape. And since I shouldn't really make that assertion without throwing in a theory, here's my theory... ;-) I think it's his worst memory because he called Lily a Mudblood. - Derek From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 17:43:06 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:43:06 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139115 "pippin_999" wrote: > Now, if Harry were my kid, would I > have told him that he should > apologize to Snape for prying > in the pensieve? I think I would And if Snape were your kid would you also tell Snape to apologize to Harry for prying into his mind and not giving him the same opportunity to hide his most embarrassing memories in the Pensive? And if Harry had apologized how do you think he'd feel about it now after he watched Snape murder Dumbledore? Eggplant From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 17:51:51 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:51:51 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139116 Del wrote: > The only thing I can't directly link to this theory is Snape's strange > reluctance to speak of Lily. I wonder if this has anything to do with > the conditions surrounding the Transfer of the Debt. It could be that > James had to give his permission for the Transfer, and that he did so > only when Snape agreed to take an UV with Lily, that he would protect > Harry. In that case, his trying to protect Harry in PS/SS would simply > be a fulfillment of this Vow. So would his protecting Harry from the > other DEs at the end of HBP. And the reason why Snape agreed to the > Vow might be the same one why he won't talk of Lily: he liked her (not > necessarily romatic love, I'm going more for friendship or something > like that). > > That last hypothesis could also explain why Snape twitched when > Narcissa pronounced the third item of her Vow. If Snape didn't know > what the Task was (and I think he didn't), he might have thought that > maybe Draco was supposed to kill *Harry*, in which case Snape would > have been stuck between two diametrically opposed Vows. zgirnius: Wow, Del, no rotten veggies from me. I think this is a very interesting and creative outline and it is giving me a lot of new things to think about. I agree that the rough outline about the Life Debt transfer does cover a lot of different details. You don't spell this out, but I also like that it means Dumbledore was right to trust Snape all those years. I never liked the idea he made such a big mistake, for so long. You move the mistake to the start of HBP. Cool. The part above that I kept from your post is my one nitpick. I don't think Snape would have agreed to an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry in the situation you outline. Your proposed theory says Snape would die if he were unable to prevent Voldemort from killing James. Why exchange this for a scenario in which Snape would die if he were unable to keep Voldemort from killing Harry? That had to seem equally unlikely, at the time. Especially as Harry is the *true* target of Voldemort, his parents are just obstacles, to be eliminated if they get in the way. This in no way says Snape Snape like Lily. His unwillingness to speak of her could be because he had liked her, regardless of all this other stuff. (Snape, it would seem, is a person who has got the conventional wisdom that if you can't say something good about a person, you should say nothing at all, rather reversed...) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 17:53:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:53:34 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139117 > Pippin: > Unless Snape knew when Harry was going to be born, how could > he know to whom the prophecy would refer? We don't even know > if James and Lily had already defied Voldemort three times when it > was given, or if that too was in the future. Alla: OK, when Snape was giving this information to Voldemort, he knew that he was condemning UNNAMED couple and their baby to death. How does it make what Snape did any better? Pippin: It was also, according > to Dumbledore, strictly Voldemort's decision whether to believe > the prophecy or not. Snape is not responsible for that at all, > though obviously he must have hoped that Voldemort would > regard the information as important and reward him for it. Alla: I asked this question earlier, but I am going to ask it again. What do you think Snape expected for Vodemort to do with this information? With information that child will be born,who would defeat him? Pippin: > Now, if Harry were my kid, would I have told him that he should > apologize to Snape for prying in the pensieve? I think I would, > though I wouldn't force him to do it. I would explain that it > wouldn't mean he was conceding to any of Snape's allegations > about his character, just that had indeed behaved wrongly and > foolishly in this case. Alla: But that is the thing . Harry has no parents, partially thanks to Snape. I don't think Harry owes anything to Snape, sorry. Was his act foolish? Yes, of course, but it makes me suspicious that JKR does not address the "foolishness" of this act at all, even though she makes Harry admit that he blamed Snape for Sirius' death because it was easier to do than to blame himself. So, when she wants to show that Harry was wrong in blaming Snape, she does. I speculate that Snape orchestrated Harry's trip in the pensieve. Pippin: > Everyone thinks it's terribly moving when Harry is able to > help the physically crippled Dumbledore, but somehow people are > revolted that an emotionally crippled person should need > aid from a healthy youngster, or, heaven forbid, be allowed to teach. Alla: Well, I am not sure I get the analogy. Are you saying that Harry is healthy youngster? Because I definitely disagree with this statement. Oh, and yes, Snape should not be allowed to teach of course, IMO :-) Pippin: > But Jo has said she thinks it's important that children understand > that adults have problems too, that they struggle. > Alla: Maybe it is important to understand, but I would prefer to see those adults, who abuse those children get punished first and then for the kids to see that it is not their fault, that the adults have problems, not they. I think it is especially important for Neville to understand it dan: > And Harry is supposed to offer to this hideous man with a DE history > and a personal culpability in Harry's orphan status some kind of > gesture of understanding, a man who has conveniently forgot to tell > Harry anything at all about his role in the death of Harry parents? > What gesture is being asked for here? What gesture would be appropriate? Alla: I just want to say - BRAVO, dan. I can totally see Harry forgiving Snape at the end, but not because Snape would somehow deserve it or because Harry would be obligated to do so. "It is not your mercy that matters it is mine" JMO, Alla From reyakittens at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 14:04:16 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:04:16 -0000 Subject: Wasn't Anyone Else Disappointed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139118 Richard Jones wrote: > The middle of the book was well, dull compared to the other > books. Of course, things picked up at the end, but all I can say is > that a thought forced itself into my mind while reading the middle of > HBP that never ever occurred to me while reading any of the other > five books ? "when will this be over?" I actually loved this book but I did feel that way with Book 5 during re-reads. I think that that is why I loved 6 so much. Book 5 I felt was too long and too miserable. Nothing seemed to go right except for the DA lessons. I found myself getting as frustrated as the characters.. and I don't know.. you never want to feel frustrating when reading! Robyn From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Aug 30 18:04:33 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:04:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008301c5ad8d$47af9350$403a79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 139119 "pippin_999" wrote: > Now, if Harry were my kid, would I > have told him that he should > apologize to Snape for prying > in the pensieve? I think I would Sherry now: i actually felt very bad when Harry looked in that pensieve and sat there saying, no, Harry, don't do that. I have a thing about respecting privacy. However, on the other hand, I don't think Snape would accept or respect or even believe, a humble or repentant Harry Potter. Also, it was implied upthread that Harry should have expressed remorse for what his father had done. Fiddlesticks. Nobody should have to apologize for the long ago actions of someone else. Harry did not participate in whatever went on between the marauders and Snape and owes Snape nothing for that. and now, of course, he owes him nothing at all, since he's seen Snape commit murder with his own eyes. It's been said that Harry's reading of the tower events is based in his hatred of Snape, but I disagree. It is based on what he saw with his own eyes. If you saw someone walk up and shoot someone, no matter how much you loved or hated that person, you'd believe that murder had been committed. Whatever the eventual resolution of that whole thing--and I am in the Snape is a murderer camp--Harry can't be blamed for believing what he saw. And to those who object that it didn't look like an AK, I don't know that we know that for sure, and Harry certainly does not. He didn't even see Cedric die, did he? And we are never given a description of the curse that hit Sirius, except to be told a jet of light hit Sirius or something like that. No color stated. Sherry From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 18:09:21 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:09:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139120 dkeeberlibryn wrote: I came away with a nagging feeling that at the end, Harry just wasn't ready to battle V in the next book. I wonder if he will serve as the point of the spear that is comprised of many others who join forces with Harry to bring about the demise of V. Derek wrote: I think that's very possible. I think you're right in saying that Harry doesn't seem anywhere near ready for a full-on, one-to-one battle with LV. But I'm not sure he needs to be. I don't think it's "realistic" to expect Harry to somehow become a more powerful wizard than LV by the age of 17. I've just re-read GF, and while reading it, I was struck by how much Harry's success in the tournament tasks is due to his friendships. In short, I think Harry has built alliances throughout his life by being helpful, courageous, and doing the right thing (for the most part). Voldemort, on the other hand, uses the Cruciatus curse on his closest followers... And I suspect this difference, in the end, will be the one that counts. I think we may very well find, when all is said and done, that Voldemort stands alone, betrayed by some followers (Pettigrew and/or Draco Malfoy), deceived by some he thought were followers (Snape), and abandoned by all the others. While at the same time, Harry stands with a virtual army of friends at his back, all willing to risk their lives to stand by Harry, while Voldemort's "friends" are deserting him like rats off a sinking ship. Now Merrylinks: This is my theory, too. We have already seen Harry defeat Voldemort with the weapon of love numerous times. Lily's love embedded in Harry's skin protected Harry first from the AK curse and then from Quirrel!Mort's touch in SS. Harry's love for Dumbledore got him Godric Gryffindor's sword and the help of Fawkes in the Chamber of Secrets. As the Priori Incantatem was broken in GoF, the love of the shadowy, smoky figure of James Potter gave Harry enough time get to the Portkey and return to Hogwarts. Harry's love for Sirius kept Voldemort from possessing him during the battle in the Ministry of Magic. Brotherly love from Ron, Hermione, Dobby and Neville meant that Harry received help in all sorts of difficult situations throughout the books. Harry's OWL grades show that he has adequate but not outstanding skills as a sixteen year old wizard. But Harry is surrounded by friends who are willing to risk death at his side. By contrast, although Voldemort has proven than he has unparalleled wizarding skills, he has no friends. When he battles Harry, he battles him alone. When Harry battles Voldemort, he has a huge number of loyal friends at his side. In other words, Harry already has the "power the Dark Lord knows not" and will be able to defeat him, with a little help from his friends. Merrylinks From hsvdine at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 17:41:47 2005 From: hsvdine at yahoo.com (hsvdine) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:41:47 -0000 Subject: Peter is *nothing* like Neville (was :Harry's story , NOT Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082918246dc44662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139121 Del wrote: > > There's no way I can picture Neville almost wetting his pants > > with excitement at the spectacle of anyone abusing anyone else, > > like we saw Peter do. And he has already proven that he WILL > > NOT put his own life above what is right, and that he WILL > > sacrifice his own life to save his friends'life, the *very thing* > > that Peter was unable to do and that led him to betrayal. Lady Indigo wrote: > What I meant is that Peter and Neville were both followers, shy boys, > insecure, had very little confidence in their own abilities. > Neville's response to that was to remain true to himself and to defy > even powerful friends if he thought it's what was right. Peter's > response was to become a lickboot and a traitor. I have never felt that Neville was just a follower. In truth I viewed him more as a loner. He loves Herbology because it is easy to get along with plants. Neville is a brave boy with wonderful character. I think he has been a bit overrun by his grandmother but he really comes in to his own in OOTP, I was a little dissapointed not to see more of him in HBP. I think that he will play a part in book 7 even if it is just to prove that frindship and loyalty can overcome fear. Please don't underrate him he may still surprise you. --Siriussange-- From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 18:15:32 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:15:32 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139122 eggplant wrote: > And if Snape were your kid would you also tell Snape to apologize to > Harry for prying into his mind and not giving him the same opportunity > to hide his most embarrassing memories in the Pensive? And if Harry > had apologized how do you think he'd feel about it now after he > watched Snape murder Dumbledore? zgirnius: I don't get this line of argument. Why would Harry feel any worse/differently now for having said to Snape at some point last year "Gee, I wanted to apologize for sneaking a peek at your Pensieve during the Occlumency lesson. It was wrong of me."? I think Harry would feel very much the same way. (IE, bereft, and very hateful towards Snape...) Do you see this apology as somehow giving Snape the opportunity to do something additionally hurtful? All I can picture is another explosion of cockroach containers and an "I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THIS, POTTER!!!", which as far as I can see changes the dynamic between Harry and Snape in exactly no way. DO you see some worse possibility? If so, could you spell it out for those of us who are mot seeing it? And, for the record, if I were Snape's mother...he's been needing lots and lots of advice about how to treat other people for about 6 books now. We could start far earlier in the books with the apologies! From lady.indigo at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 18:06:01 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:06:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee705082918515ac0cc87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee70508301106356128af@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139123 > On 8/30/05, M.Clifford wrote: > > >>Lady Indigo said: >> But the point is that it was true, and Harry's acknowledgement of this would have allowed for a more beneficial relationship with >> someone who, while certainly not the nicest person, was for all Harry knew a very useful and important resource prior to Book >>6. Certainly someone trusted in Dumbledore's eyes, at least, however that did or didn't turn out. > > Valky: > It just wouldn't be Harry to do that. Harry is not a Slytherin type, he isn't looking for beneficial relationships, he looks for meaningful > camaraderie and friendship. He is a true Gryffindor. It would be Snape and only Snape that would percieve ny value in a coldly beneficial > relationship between them. Harry wouldn't know the first thing to do with one. Lady Indigo: Use Snape's lessons to fight Voldemort, maybe? I'm not talking about ambition here, I'm not talking about arranging backscratching between enemies. Snape had knowledge that even Dumbledore found it useful for Harry to learn. Harry barely even TRIED to make that work, for all taking out the wizarding equivalent of Hitler was important to him, Dumbledore, apparently Snape, and everyone else. There's no guile in deciding that for a little while you have to tolerate someone who's been cruel to you in order to better serve EVERYONE'S good. Whether or not an apology or some degree of humbleness would have worked, and again, I don't guarantee it would, it would have at least served as an attempt. > Alla: > I submit that Penseive scene was only ONE scene in seven years relationship which we don't know much about yet. And we know >that Snape belonged to that gang according to Sirius. I never considered Sirius' to be a liar, but after HBP when his words >about Snape's involvement with DA pretty much confirmed, I am taking his factual comments about Snape pretty much at face >value. > > Lady Indigo: > > Don't you think we would have, at least as a > > 'you did it too!' retort of some kind? > Valky: > We get one of those. > * Snape never missed a chance to Hex James, you don't think your > * father would take that lying down do you? Lady Indigo: Again saying I haven't read all of Order in a while (and I'm beginning to tackle that right now so I don't continue to sound like an idiot), I'll concede to that. I've also reread that scene and I still see a load of excuses that don't ring soundly to me. I find it difficult to fully believe this when the reason given for attacking Snape as late as his fifth year is "It's more like he exists, really." Of course there must have been retaliation at some point, but isn't there a certain importance to the Marauders' relationship with Snape 90% of the time being represented as something much worse than a mutual crossing of swords? >On 8/30/05, vmonte wrote: >Now that we know that Snape is a great legimens/occlumens I'm struck by the many times (even in book 1) Harry has felt that Snape was >invading his mind and extracting information. Harry always feels it and it makes him feel violated. > >"Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times he wondered > whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape >was so horrible (I'm reminded of JKR's comment that Snape is a "deeply horrible" person) to Harry. Could Snape possibly know they'd found > >out about the Sorceror's Stone? Harry didn't see how he could--yet he sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds" (p221, >SS). > "Harry wondered whether he could slip his Invisibility Cloak back on, thereby gaining his seat at the long Gryffindor table (which, >inconveniently, was the farthest from the entrance hall) without being noticed. As though he had read Harry's mind, however, Snape >said, "No cloak. You can walk in so that everyone sees you, which is what you wanted, I'm sure" (p162, Snape Victorious, HBP). > I can't help but feel that this is like "mind rape." It makes me also feel very bad for Ginny who had to endure this kind of "emotional >rape" for a whole year. > >I agree that James was wrong, but Snape is no better. Lady Indigo: I have to say that I'm not entirely sure about this. We get a very distinctive feel of what a full-scale invasion of one's mind is like, when Snape pulls the image of the HBP's book forward at the end of that book. There may be some kind of lesser Occlumancy Snape can do without as much notice, but we don't yet know if this is possible. I also saw no evidence there or anywhere else save the Occlumancy lessons themselves that Harry felt emotionally violated by any of it, save what Snape normally stirs up in him. Either way, yes, Snape becomes and perhaps always was no better, although as far as mind-reading Harry hardly ever KNOWS this has happened and therefore can't really be subject to the potential of the same damage. But this again is more about Harry taking the high road. So much of what I'm hearing against this comes down to "but Snape is also a bastard and he did this thing and he would do this stuff later." And my answer is, so? We know that he is, we know that he's completely incapable of being rational about Harry, Harry's parents, and anything that even remotely resembles adult maturity. This isn't about Snape's actions, it's about *Harry* finding that maturity and rationality. It's something he's failed to do so far and something he'd do well to learn from Dumbledore, who would probably feel sorrow for what his enemies became even as he cut them down. (Certainly he's aware of what Snape is and yet gives him some measure of respect, whatever you want to read about his murder/voluntary demise/whatever.) As, yes, deeply horrible as Snape has been, Harry is no saint and yet Harry is our hero. So it's his actions I'm more concerned with, whether or not he's 16. This is a coming of age tale, and so I will, yes, point out where he completely fails to act like an adult. > On 8/30/05, tbernhard2000 wrote: > His relationship to Snape was probably like Harry's with Draco - intermittent, and nasty. Lady Indigo: But with James in the role of Draco, the arrogant aggressor? We also have all those references to Snape being attacked alone by four people, as opposed to the Trio vs. Draco and CrabbenGoyle. tbernhard2000: > He hasn't acknowledged his responsibility in the demise of Harry's parents, to Harry. Snape knew about the prophecy orb, cause he knew >about the prophecy and the DOM, obviously. I know someone on this list will disagree, somehow... Lady Indigo: Not a disagreement so much as a question: how would his overhearing the prophecy mean that 15 years later he could be aware the orb existed? I'm sure I'm missing details here. I really, really need to reread OotP. tbernhard2000: >And Harry is supposed to offer to this hideous man with a DE history and a personal culpability in Harry's orphan status some kind of >gesture of understanding, a man who has conveniently forgot to tell Harry anything at all about his role in the death of Harry parents? >What gesture is being asked for here? What gesture would be appropriate? Lady Indigo: An apology for what Harry has done wrong in the situation. He intruded in Snape's privacy and he immediately assumed Snape was lying about James. (He's also a cheat, no matter who the HBP's book belonged to, but I won't even go into that.) Those are his only crimes, and the only ones I wished he would apologize for based on what he (and we) knew at the time. I also think it'd be no blow to his pride to say 'My father should not have attacked you, and he did wrong by you, but I'm not my father,' but I'll let that go as I can definitely understand the debate there and how I might think differently from others. Harry apologizing for his own actions, though, is common courtesy and it's not for major sins. He needs to take responsibility for a small amount of teenage pride, bias, and thoughtlessness. I don't see why that's so astonishing to everyone, or why you insist Snape's own evil deeds, almost none of which Harry knew about at the time, somehow put Harry above doing the decent thing. My original point, ultimately, was that Harry hadn't owned up to his (very small!) end of things and that it probably inflated Snape's perception of Harry's arrogance and refusal to take responsibility. It's very likely apology wouldn't have changed a thing, but it's the attempt that matters. Harry's never tried to actually defeat Snape's bias by proving himself humble and willing to acknowledge where he did wrong. He's certainly not helped by getting angry even when Snape was right, snarking right back at him (which probably reminded Snape VERY much of James!), and privately wishing him dead. Is it a human reaction? Yes. Is it the best reaction? Definitely not. tbernhard2000: >Snape found refuge at Hogwarts too. Lady Indigo: When? He found refuge in his magic making him feel better than powerless, sure, but he was bullied, isolated, and not nearly given the attention and love Harry was. Some of that is definitely his own prison, yes. Some of it, I don't doubt, was exchanging one form of pain for another. I certainly have a feeling his friends weren't 'true' friends, for one thing. tbernhard2000: >As for your last statement, I think it's important to note that the memory was Snape's worst. Not the ratting that led to the death of >Harry's parents, not joining the DE, etc. What do you think this means? Lady Indigo: I do think this has to do with Lily, whether or not he loved her (though I think he did), and also that she's the person Snape regrets causing the death of. And I think we've had a lot of clues in this vein, too, both from the books and Rowling's interviews. I'm really sorry for the hugeness of this response, by the way; I've just realized that I only get three a day and I was trying to respond to as much as I could. - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 18:49:05 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:49:05 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139124 > zgirnius: > I don't get this line of argument. Why would Harry feel any > worse/differently now for having said to Snape at some point last > year "Gee, I wanted to apologize for sneaking a peek at your Pensieve > during the Occlumency lesson. It was wrong of me."? Alla: The way I see it is close to what Phoenixgod said earlier in the thread - I believe that Snape would perceive Harry's apology as weakeness and yes, would have used it as possibility to hurt and belittle Harry even more. I have no idea if this is what Eggplant meant though. Zgirnius: > And, for the record, if I were Snape's mother...he's been needing lots > and lots of advice about how to treat other people for about 6 books > now. We could start far earlier in the books with the apologies! Alla: LOL! I am glad to hear from someone that Snape needs to take major responsibility for his actions :-) One could think that abused child somehow bears major responsibility in repairing the relationship between him and his abuser teacher. > Lady Indigo: Of course there must have been > retaliation at some point, but isn't there a certain importance to the > Marauders' relationship with Snape 90% of the time being represented as > something much worse than a mutual crossing of swords? Alla: May I ask you where do you get 90% of the time figure? Lady Indigo: ...is more about Harry taking the high road. So much of what I'm hearing > against this comes down to "but Snape is also a bastard and he did this > thing and he would do this stuff later." And my answer is, so? This isn't about Snape's actions, it's about *Harry* finding > that maturity and rationality. Alla: Well, what you would hear from me is that IMO it would be completely unrealistic for Harry to find this maturity towards the man who behaved so horribly towards him the moment Harry arrives to WW. I think it is a sign of very good writing that Harry cannot forgive Snape yet, because Snape hurt him so very badly. Lady Indigo: > As, yes, deeply horrible as Snape has been, Harry is no saint and yet Harry > is our hero. So it's his actions I'm more concerned with, whether > or not he's 16. This is a coming of age tale, and so I will, yes, point out > where he completely fails to act like an adult. Alla: I am twice Harry's age and if anyone would treated me just as horrible as Snape treated Harry all those years and I would witness Snape killing my mentor, I would unfortunately completely failed to act as an adult too, most likely :-) But as I said upthread, I am pretty sure that Harry would forgive Snape when he comes out of age, but definitely not because Harry has to, IMO. > Lady Indigo: We also have > all those references to Snape being attacked alone by four people, > as opposed to the Trio vs. Draco and CrabbenGoyle. Alla: Snape said it once,when he was duelling with Harry. What are the other references? > tbernhard2000: > >Snape found refuge at Hogwarts too. > > Lady Indigo: > When? He found refuge in his magic making him feel better than powerless, > sure, but he was bullied, isolated, and not nearly given the > attention and love Harry was. Alla: Could you give more prove, please that Snape did not found refuge in Hogwarts (Besides Pensieve scene of course)? Consider the following hypothetical, please. I think vmonte was the one who raised it. Suppose Draco puts the memory of him provoking Harry at the end of GoF in the pensieve? Do you think it would give us much of objective picture of Draco/Harry relationship through Hogwarts? Was it nice of Trio and twins to attack Draco like this? Of course no, but Draco had no business to come to their appartment and taunt them with death threats, IMO. So, my original point was that it is quite likely that Snape found refuge in Hogwarts, just as Harry did. Unless you submit that Draco is treated in Hogwarts worse than Harry, of course. JMO, Alla From rdsilverstein at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 18:34:57 2005 From: rdsilverstein at yahoo.com (hpfan_mom) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:34:57 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.'s identity confirmed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139125 Hpfan_mom: Hickengruendler noted that if R.A.B. is Regulus Arcturus Black, as HP Lexicon asserts, that would "make the translation of Regulus' first and middle name 'King Arthur'." With that in mind, what are the implications (if any) of Ginny Weasley's real name being Ginevra, which is the Italian form of Guinevere? HPfan_mom. From lady.indigo at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 18:23:05 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:23:05 -0400 Subject: Peter is *nothing* like Neville (was :Harry's story , NOT Snape's) In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee705082918246dc44662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee70508301123f1e60e@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139126 On 8/30/05, hsvdine wrote: > > Please don't underrate him he may still surprise you. > I don't know where I ever underrated him. Being a follower isn't a bad thing, and it doesn't mean you have no mind of your own; I say it meaning the opposite of 'leader', someone who has no desire to really stand out and take charge. I do agree that 'loner' is probably a better word, but Neville does want friends. Anyway, I repeat, I love the little guy. I love his concept and his evolution and I do hope he has more of a role in Book 7. (I also think he and Luna would be cute together, whether or not Rowling sunk that one. Being eccentric outsiders certainly doesn't mean they have no interest in romance or sex.) His insecurities just reminded me a lot of Pettigrew's. People who start out feeling inferior to the bigger personalities of the world have the choice to develop a strong inner core, or to become sycophants and panderers. Neville chose one and Pettigrew chose the other. - Lady Indigo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 18:55:01 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:55:01 -0000 Subject: Moral, Immoral, and Amoral: Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139127 Del replies: I disagree with your classification. The way I see it, it's LV who is amoral, while Snape is immoral. First off, if anyone is amoral in the Potterverse, it's LV *by definition*. LV is a sociopath (by JKR's own admission, and judging by his behaviour), and one of the main characteristics of a sociopath is that they lack morality, that they are amoral. Quirrell said it (paraphrase): LV taught him that "there is no right and wrong, only power and those too weak to use it". That's LV's motto, that was *always* LV's motto. No right and wrong, only power and those too weak to use it. No good and evil, no good magic and Dark Magic, only powerful magic and those too weak to use it. vmonte: Did I get these mixed up? Amorality involves actions without concern or intention to moral consequences. So, an amoral person is unaware of morality, where as an immoral person actively transgresses against it. Hmmm, I thought that Voldemort was willingly choosing to do wrong. It seems to me like he knows right from wrong but likes the power trip he gets from doing wrong. You are saying that he really isn't concerned about right or wrong but lives on base instincts--someone without a conscience? And Snape is immoral. But if I describe both of their behaviors then I need to say they are both immoral. Forget it --- too confusing -- lets just say they are both bad. Vivian :) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 18:33:49 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:33:49 -0000 Subject: Why Neville is not like Peter (was: Peter is *nothing* like Neville) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139128 IMO, the answer is pretty clear: his Gran. Let me explain. houyhnhn wrote: "I didn't interpret Lady Indigo's comment as meaning that they *are* alike. More like begging the question. Why are they *different*? Neville was weak. He was scared in most of his classes it seems, not just potions. His round face is constantly mentioned suggesting a babyish appearance. So why doesn't he become a suck up? Why *does* Neville have this shining core of integrity that makes him put it all on the line standing up FOR his friens and TO his friends?" Del replies: I'd say: because his friends' opinion doesn't matter to him. It's his Gran's opinion, and his very own, (and maybe Uncle Algie's too) that do. Neville's life pretty much revolves around what his Gran wants and what she's taught him to want for himself. Even in HBP, we see him trying to get into Transfiguration NEWT, one of his weaker subjects, instead of going for Charms, one of his stronger ones, simply because "Gran wants him to". It's not what the other students do or want or say that matters to Neville, it's what his Gran and himself do. And as time passes, Gran's opinion matters less and less, while Neville's own opinion of himself matters more and more. Neville took life and death decisions in OoP on his own, not because of what his Gran wanted. His vendetta against Bellatrix is personal, it's not fueled by his Gran's desires. And the fact that McGonagall revealed to him that he did better in his Charms OWL than dear Gran is bound to help too :-) But the fact remains that Neville simply doesn't *care* about what the other students think of him, not enough anyway for this to motivate him. He doesn't have a driving need to belong, to be accepted, to be protected, by his *peers*. He was alone among adults all his childhood, he's always only ever dealt with adults' sometimes contradictory expectations of him (and their rather violent way of expressing them, from taking him on every Christmas Day to see his deranged parents to throwing him out of a window), and that makes him a loner among kids. Lady Indigo wrote: "I love Neville too and I agree with everything you said. What I meant is that Peter and Neville were both followers, shy boys, insecure, had very little confidence in their own abilities. Neville's response to that was to remain true to himself and to defy even powerful friends if he thought it's what was right. Peter's response was to become a lickboot and a traitor. I in no way meant to do Neville any injustice there, and sorry if you misread me!" Del replies: I don't see Neville as a follower. I see him as a loner who will sometimes choose to associate himself with a particular cause. Neville doesn't have a gang of friends and never tried to get one. The five Gryffindor boys are separated in two pairs (Harry+Ron, Dean+Seamus) and one loner (Neville). Neville is *never* described as belonging to a group, nor is he ever described as *trying* to get into a gang. He's happy to have someone to spend time with on the Hogwarts Express and in the carriages, but that's about it. Even when others extend the hand of frienship to him, like the Trio and Ginny and Luna have done, he doesn't cling to it. It's the fact that he has no real friend to care for him that pushed Hermione to look for him after he was traumatised during Fake!Moody's Unforgivable Curses class, for example. I think that's where his main difference with Peter lies: Neville doesn't need, and doesn't look for, his peers' approval and validation. And the reason for that is pretty clear IMO: he's been set up against MUCH bigger rivals ever since he was born: his own parents. His Gran doesn't care (much) about Neville beating his schoolmates, she only cares about him living up to his parents' memory, and so Neville is competing only against himself and a pair of ghosts. The Breaking of the Wand at the end of OoP is extremely symbolic IMO: Neville is no longer "just" his parents' son, he is now fully Himself, and I think that his pride and pleasure at his new wand are symbolic of the pride and pleasure he's starting to take in his own accomplishments, in his own personality. That's why Neville could never act like Peter did: because Neville couldn't live with himself if he did. Neville has had to compete with himself all his life, it's been drilled into him over and over again that he is the son of two proud and valiant people, and he has completely integrated this in himself. And the son of Frank and Alice Longbottom, the grandson of Augusta Longbottom, is *never* going to act like Peter Pettigrew, no more than Harry Potter is ever going to be seduced by the Dark Arts. Neville can be shy and insecure, and Harry can sometimes be cruel and nasty, but their core personalities are set in a good way. And interestingly enough, both boys' personality is *very heavily* influenced by their parents, who they were, what they did, how they died, and how people remember them. Neville is yet another example of the recurring theme throughout the Potterverse that the parents heavily determine how the kids will turn out. JMO, of course :-) Del From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 30 19:28:47 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:28:47 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139130 Eggplant: > And if Snape were your kid would you also tell Snape to apologize to Harry for prying into his mind and not giving him the same opportunity to hide his most embarrassing memories in the Pensive? Pippin: For Harry to put his most vulnerable memories in the pensieve, he would first have to think about what they are. That would be self-defeating, since the problem was that Harry was vulnerable to Voldemort, not Snape. Voldemort had, as they thought, access to every one of those embarrassing experiences all the time, not just during occlumency lessons. So, unless Harry got very good at occlumency very quickly, for Harry to identify his most vulnerable thoughts would have been like handing Voldemort a road map -- and it would have pointed straight to Cho Chang. Isn't it telling that Voldemort used Harry's feelings for Sirius, not her? Snape did respect Harry's sexual privacy -- he did not actually force Harry to relive his memory of kissing Cho, and did not try to access this memory again. He also didn't make Harry recall being embarrassed by Myrtle in the prefect's bath or any of the thoughts Harry had about Cho that the text said he didn't want anyone to know about. I wish I could say the same for Harry, who showed every indication of staying in the memory to find out whether Snape got pantsed or not. Eggplant: >And if Harry had apologized how do you think he'd feel about it now after he watched Snape murder Dumbledore? Pippin: If Harry thought Snape was a murderer at the time, he shouldn't have been studying with him. But Harry has never had the courage of his convictions where Snape is concerned, never had the guts to walk out as Hermione has. He might be ashamed of himself for that -- or maybe he's known in his heart all along that his suspicions were unfounded. Nobody is suggesting that Harry should have whined, or grovelled or kissed Snape's feet, or said, "You are right, I am a jumped up miserable cur who is unworthy to study wizardry. >From now on please treat me as horribly as I deserve." All he needed to say was, "I shouldn't have looked in your pensieve, sir, and I'm sorry." Since Harry was indeed sorry he looked, and knew it was wrong, what on earth would he have lost by admitting it? I really don't understand the notion that Snape could have somehow used this against him. How? Snape might, what, act like he'd scored a point or something? Wouldn't that be just another instance of childish behavior on Snape's part, and another reason for Harry to feel superior, knowing he, at least, had acted like a grown up? Pippin From muellem at bc.edu Tue Aug 30 19:32:06 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:32:06 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > vmonte now: > Exactly! Snape is a sick sadistic bas**rd. How can Snape be a good > guy? What has he learned from his past mistakes? Nothing! > Really? How do you know that he has learned nothing from his past mistakes? He may be a sadistic bastard, but DD seems to want him on hand. Perhaps he is this way because he is forced to teach a bunch of dunderheads and really wishes he was off doing something else - like being left alone to stew in his own misery. > >dan: > And Harry is supposed to offer to this hideous man with a DE > history and a personal culpability in Harry's orphan status some kind > of gesture of understanding, a man who has conveniently forgot to tell > Harry anything at all about his role in the death of Harry parents? > What gesture is being asked for here? What gesture would be > appropriate? I don't Harry HAS to do anything - but he could. He could take the highground here; after all, it is HIS story, right? He is the hero, correct? Not Snape - Snape is too deeply flawed and damaged to take the highground. Snape's only function & purpose is to become a spy and pass information on to DD. DD thought highly enough of Snape's function not to get rid of him, because he was nasty to Harry & other students he didn't like. Seems like both Harry & Snape like their little interactions together - they both get a perverse sense of satistifaction when they *cut* the other person down. Snape, of course, had been able to get away with this for the first couple of years without Harry standing up to him, but not anymore. The idea that there has to be some type of *gesture* is absurd. There doesn't have to be - it isn't required. However, as a person who has to take the highroad all the time at my job, it doesn't hurt me to do so. Does that make me a better person? I think it does. I know when to stand up for certain things and when I have crossed the line. I have had bosses that were sadistic bastards and I have ALWAYS had to take the highground with them. colebiancardi From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 19:37:02 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:37:02 -0000 Subject: Celibate Snape (Was:Harry's story , NOT Snape's ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139132 Merry Kinsella wrote: > > Anyhow, the "love story" that mosts interests me where Snape is concerned is what I perceive to be his platonic love with Dumbledore. Possibly the only healthy experience of love in his life, and a mere first step toward any other kind. Sort of a parental need fulfilled, late in life. > > > > colebiancardi responded: > very good post, merylanna. This is how I view Snape - I certainly > don't find him sexy or attractive in the least. His character is > what engages me, not his looks. He doesn't strike me as a *sexual* > being, but more of a cerebral one - the only thing that I can think > of being *sexy* about him is his manner of speaking - it is always > smoothly, silkily....but then JKR throws in the coldly and > unemotionally bits as well - which is NOT sexy or passionate at all. > > colebiancardi Carol adds: Although I would add Snape's sweeping movements and billowing black robes to his voice and wit as elements that make him sexy for some readers (or compelling, mysterious, and Byronic, if you prefer), I agree with merylanna that the love that matters is his personal relationship with his father figure/mentor Dumbledore. I see his rivalry with MWPP, especially James, in his teens as something like sibling rivalry. He wants DD's affection and approval, yet James (that spell stealer and bully in Severus's view) is the favorite son. I could go into more detail here and provide canon support for this idea, but I don't want to go off topic. (I do have a question, though. Anyone have any idea as to why Severus apparently wasn't chosen as Slytherin Prefect in his fifth year, *before* the Pensieve incident and the so-called Prank?) Certainly the man in Snape's childhood memory, whom I take to be Grandpa Prince rather than Tobias because he does not seem to be a Muggle, would not have provided young Severus with the approval he seems to crave--and Dumbledore's trust of the adult Snape could provide a substitute for the love and approval he never received from the father figure of his childhood. I agree with colebiancardi that many of Snape's passions are not sexual but intellectual (an early interest in the Dark Arts, a love of potions, a determination to know *everything* about DADA, as indicated by his DADA OWL, crammed with details in his tiny handwriting, inventing his own spells and improvements on potions in his teens or earlier, his walls full of books at Spinner's End, the ongoing challenge of fooling the Dark Lord through Occlumency and undetected lies). But I think his personal passions, the ones he doesn't want to wear on his sleeve for fear of being thought weak--or, alternatively, uses to cultivate an image for himself), are equally important (a personal desire for revenge against Voldemort for whatever reason, a personal loyalty to Dumbledore, a personal hatred of James for leaving him with an unfulfilled life debt, etc.). I don't see him as loving or desiring either Lily or Narcissa (though a desire for Narcissa's approval may have been at work in the UV scene). His black robes remind me of a Catholic priest's cassock. (I'm not thinking of modern instances of pedophilia but the deliberate choice of a medieval priest to pursue a celibate life.) Some British writers in earlier centuries thought that male celibacy produced detrimental effects because it denied a man a needed emotional release which a stiff-upper-lip Englishman could not openly express any other way (except going to war and killing enemy soldiers). I know that JKR would not suggest openly that Snape was sexually repressed, but certainly he seems to be *emotionally* repressed most of the time (cold, calculating, and sarcastic rather than physically abusive or brutal). When he lets his anger out, as in PoA when Sirius escapes, it explodes. His other feelings (fear, desire, affection, whatever) are almost never expressed. He's not immune to Narcissa's charms, much less her tears, but his response to her is very controlled (even when he agrees to take the UV, he seems to be in charge--until the hand twitch gives him away). But something in himself or his situation has prevented him from marrying, from feeling or expressing love and from expressing (but probably not from feeling) sexual desire. (Please don't hit me with a feminist tirade; I'm not viewing women as sexual objects here. I happen to be one myself. I'm just trying to fathom how Severus Snape's mind works.) I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this idea, but I wonder what the psychologists on the list (who seem to be focusing on Tom Riddle's childhood) think about the effects of sexual repression or emotional repression on the male personality and whether it might provide a key to our understanding of Snape. Carol, tossing out an idea in hopes that it will be discussed rationally rather than attacked From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 19:48:02 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:48:02 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139133 Colebiancardi: > I don't Harry HAS to do anything - but he could. He could take the > highground here; after all, it is HIS story, right? He is the hero, > correct? Alla: He IS the hero, that is why I am sure that he would forgive Snape at the end, but he is also a child and I think that it is not very realistic to expect for him to do so yet. Colebiancardi: Not Snape - Snape is too deeply flawed and damaged to take > the highground. Alla: Isn't it a bit too convenient? Snape is too flawed and damaged that is why he gets a pass for his horrific actions, even though he is an adult and teacher but Harry is expected to apologise even though he is a child and the wronged party through and through ( IMO only of course)? Colebiancardi: DD thought highly enough of Snape's > function not to get rid of him, because he was nasty to Harry & other > students he didn't like. Alla: And look where it got Dumbledore :-) > Pippin: > Snape did respect Harry's sexual privacy -- he did not actually force > Harry to relive his memory of kissing Cho, and did not try to access > this memory again. Alla: I thought Harry did not allow Snape to see those memories and pushed him out. I can be wrong though and don't have OOP with me to check. > Pippin: > All he needed to say was, "I shouldn't have looked in your pensieve, > sir, and I'm sorry." Since Harry was indeed sorry he looked, and > knew it was wrong, what on earth would he have lost by admitting it? Alla: But Snape did not give him a chance to say that, Pippin. He threw him from the office right away and did his best to avoid him after that, no? And yes, I believe that Harry would have apologised on the spot just as he did to Dumbledore in GoF. Just me of course. And in book 6, when Harry indeed learns about Snape's part in his past, I believe thinking of apologising is the last part on his mind and understandably so. JMO, Alla From muellem at bc.edu Tue Aug 30 20:03:52 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:03:52 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Colebiancardi: > > I don't Harry HAS to do anything - but he could. He could take > the > > highground here; after all, it is HIS story, right? He is the > hero, > > correct? > > Alla: > > He IS the hero, that is why I am sure that he would forgive Snape at > the end, but he is also a child and I think that it is not very > realistic to expect for him to do so yet. and I also agree - Harry is not mature enough at this point emotionally. > Colebiancardi: > Not Snape - Snape is too deeply flawed and damaged to take > > the highground. > > Alla: > > Isn't it a bit too convenient? Snape is too flawed and damaged that > is why he gets a pass for his horrific actions, even though he is an > adult and teacher but Harry is expected to apologise even though he > is a child and the wronged party through and through ( IMO only of > course)? > colebiancardi: No, it isn't a pass. It is the way Rowling wrote the character. I certainly don't like it; but there you have it. It is the difference between Harry & Snape - both are working for Dumbledore (IMHO) and they are very different in the way they deal with their emotions. Snape's is due to his work as a spy - he has to be what he is, otherwise he wouldn't be good at being a spy. It is not a glamorous job, being a double-agent; point-counterpoint espionage is a grim business and isn't about glory. I just rewatched "The Spy Who Came in From the Cold" with Richard Burton as Alec Leamas - the lines he delivers on his job and why Mundt has turned from being evil & the enemy to evil & on their side is a thin line. And also his description of his job as a double- agent. I highly recommend this movie, as it is not a James Bond super-spy movie at all. Leamas doesn't get the babe and he works on the edge, where even his own people are working against him. It would be interesting to ask Rowling if she likes John Le Carre's works. > Colebiancardi: > DD thought highly enough of Snape's > > function not to get rid of him, because he was nasty to Harry & > other > > students he didn't like. > > Alla: > > And look where it got Dumbledore :-) colebiancardi: And look where Snape is now - in the DE's lair with Voldy, having to *kill* Dumbledore, a man whom I believe Snape respected and loved very much(as a parental-like figure). again, JMHO colebiancardi (I really DO recommend reading and/or watching The Spy Who Came in from the Cold) From merylanna at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 19:25:59 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050830192600.53475.qmail@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139135 Eggplant said: > And if Snape were your kid would you also tell Snape > to apologize to Harry for prying into his mind and not giving him > the same opportunity to hide his most embarrassing memories in the > Pensive? And if Harry had apologized how do you think he'd feel > about it now after he watched Snape murder Dumbledore? That was not Snape's job, nor Harry's. Harry's job was to learn how to protect his private, secret thoughts from LV through occlumency. I really doubt LV would offer Harry a pensieve first before trying to find out what Harry had in his mind that LV could use to hurt Harry. What do we think Snape was yelling about? "You are giving me weapons!" Weapons Snape did not use, btw. He made no mention of the private things he saw in Harry's mind - he got annoyed he saw them at all, and was happy when Harry finally - not soon enough, but at least managed - to repel Snape's intrusion. Harry wasn't taking occlumency as an abstract skill. He was taking it so that when LV confronted him, and Harry's mind was full of memories of the Dursleys, Cho, Sirius, school, etc., Harry could repel LV. This would not happen if his thoughts were safely in the pensieve before he worked on occlumency with Snape. I feel certain that if Dumbledore wished Harry to safekeep his thoughts in the penseive first, then Snape would have allowed it. Harry's JOB was to learn to protect his thoughts first from Snape - who did not use them to damage Harry - just warned him they were weapons. Harry should NOT have had the chance to secret his thoughts away in a pensieve. Defeats the purpose. Merry Kinsella From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 30 20:51:33 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:51:33 -0000 Subject: The Gleam! The Gleam! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139136 Pippin wrote: > Dumbledore knew, when he heard that Voldemort had taken > Harry's blood, that Voldemort would excuse Snape for not > offing Harry when he had the chance, and therefore Snape could > indeed resume his role as spy. Thus the gleam of triumph, > and thus the reason said gleam has not yet been explained. > > If we knew why Dumbledore regarded Snape's re-insertion > as his ace in the hole, we'd have a reason why Dumbledore > would be willing to die to keep Snape's cover intact, so > obviously we can't be told. Pippin, I'm afraid I need more... from you or from others who agree with your view. Just whose plan is in effect here? Are you saying Voldy planned all along to come back by using Harry's blood, and so he never wanted Snape to off Harry? Are you saying Voldy eventually simply realized he could use Harry's blood to come back and so, even tho he HAD been inclined to kill Snape, after his resurrection he was no longer mad at him? Perhaps even *appreciated* his not having killed Harry? And are you saying that DD didn't think, until this moment, that Snape could ever resume his spying on Voldy activities? That it was knowing that Voldy had decided to spare Snape that made DD think it was safe to send Snape back? I guess my question, then, would be... why would DD be so CERTAIN of Voldy's willingness to forgive? Just because he discovered he could use Harry's blood -- and, in fact, DID so -- how would DD know that this meant for certain that Voldy wouldn't kill Snape for past betrayal and treachery? I don't quite get that leap to DD's certainty of excusing Snape. As for DD's willingness to die, I guess I've not seen that as specific to maintaining Snape's cover. I would imagine there might have been several reasons why and several situations in which DD would have been willing to die in order to further the cause of defeating Voldy. To me, it's not necessary that the reason be a desire to protect Snape's cover. I mean, in the end, I think that was PART of it -- in dying, he did allow Snape to "prove" to Voldy his tremendous Voldy-loyalty. But I don't think I can believe that, that early on (at the moment of the gleam), DD was planning to die as a means of making that happen. Or have I misread all of this? ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Aug 30 20:53:22 2005 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:53:22 -0000 Subject: missing from the hogwarts curriculum .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: colebiancardi: > you do realize that my post was tongue-in-cheek? However, since > Rowling does give up many details about everyday life - such as > Molly's cooking & cleaning techniques, I thought it would be > interesting to read about it. I know it is not important to the > story, but neither is showing how to peel potatoes with a wand :) Geoff: No, I didn't,because this sort of point has been raised quite seriously in the past and I have posted a similar reply. Continuing seriously, to interject bits of information and trivia - which would admittedly help to build up the back story - would make the books longer than they already are. Perhaps there is a gym in Hogsmeade for adult wizards.... From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 21:04:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:04:32 -0000 Subject: missing from hogwarts curriculum ....P.E. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > > Also, on the physical education side, I never read about a > Wizard/Witch jogging, running, working out - yet, not all > Wizards/Witches are big huge lumps of fat with no muscle tone. I > wonder if there is there a spell for weight-loss and keeping in shape? > > colebiancardi bboyminn: OK, I read the rest of this thread, so I get it, it's a joke (tongue-in-cheek). But on the serious side, let's not forget climbing up and down SEVEN or MORE flights of stairs several times a day, and walking up and down long sloping expanses of Hogwart's grounds. Those two alone are probably more exersize than most of us get in a week, and for some of us, a month. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From derek at rhinobunny.com Tue Aug 30 21:16:18 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:16:18 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.'s identity confirmed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139139 > Hpfan_mom: > > Hickengruendler noted that if R.A.B. is Regulus Arcturus Black, as HP > Lexicon asserts, that would "make the translation of Regulus' first > and middle name 'King Arthur'." > > With that in mind, what are the implications (if any) of Ginny > Weasley's real name being Ginevra, which is the Italian form of > Guinevere? Derek: Or the fact that there was a recurring song of "Weasley Is Our King" throughout OP, while Mr. Weasley's name is "Arthur?" Or that Harry once dreamed of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns? From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Aug 30 21:35:22 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:35:22 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > I'm not going to pretend that I have done anywhere near the level > of assessment of Snape's character that many on the list have done. > Heck, I'm not even sure whether Snape is Evil!Snape or Good!Snape > or Selfish!Snape or some combination thereof. > > But one thing I have a very strong hunch about is that the key to > understanding Snape is contained in the "Snape's Worst Memory" > chapter of OP. Namely, why was that his worst memory? What > element of that incident is the one so horrific to Snape that he > considers it his worst memory? > I think it's his worst memory because he called Lily a Mudblood. > > - Derek I LOVE it!!! Hurting someone, even by accident or by ignorance, can cause such guilt, and he threw that at her on purpose. I'm not sure if I think they were friends or not, but after all the chatter on this site I'm starting to believe they were. Maybe they only became friends later during Advanced Potions and then he felt guilty about how mean he had been in the past. That being said, I don't think we know for sure that that was Snape's actual worst memory. It's the chapter title because HARRY thinks it's his worst memory, but Snape did put 3 in that Pensieve. (What are the other 2, I wonder. I know this has all been discussed before.) Allie From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 21:37:48 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:37:48 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139141 > >>Neri: > > But I've noticed that, while you can't see the secret passion in > Severus' eyes, you seem to agree that Cissy was falling all over > him during the whole chapter. So let me ask you again my original > question #1: Why did Narcissa choose such tactics and how did she > know it would work on Snape? Betsy Hp: As I said before, Narcissa was not acting like a woman manipulating a smitten man in this scene, IMO. She was too sloppy in her despair. I think she was as desperate as her actions suggested (she loves her son) though I also think she probably has a touch of drama in her (shared by Draco) that influenced her a bit. (IOW, a naturally more retiring woman would have shown her desperation in a different way.) However I also think Narcissa went to Snape for a very specific reason. I think she *does* think Snape is the only person likely to help her in her fix. She says as much. I happen to think Narcissa feels Snape is someone who will help because he is a friend to the Malfoy family. (She brings up his friendship with Lucius and his relationship with Draco.) In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Lucius hadn't told her at some point, "If something happens to me and you need help, go to Snape," or something along those lines. > >>Betsy Hp: > > Yes, Snape can go bat-poo crazy when his emotions are raised. > > We've seen this in PoA and we saw it in OotP. For Snape to make > > this kind of massive sacrifice at such a critical time (and > > Snape *must* realize how critical the times are no matter what > > side he's on) for such a heart on his sleeve reason he'd have to > > be operating on pure emotion. And, IMO, that level of emotion > > is impossible for Snape to hide. He's never been able to before. > >>Neri: > Gee, it's really not easy maneuvering between you > Snape-can't-act-to-save-his-life guys the Snape-is-an-Oscar-actor > guys . I've already explained why Snape can't go into Shrieking > Shack mode here. It would ruin everything both within and outside > the story. Betsy Hp: I'm a middle of the road gal myself, if that helps . And I would argue that it would have behooved Snape to hold himself together while in the Shrieking Shack. Snape doesn't *choose* to go all fiery passion, he just does it. The very fact that he *is* able to hold himself together suggests a controllable level of emotion to me. (YMMV, and I'll bet, does. ) > >>Neri: > But we get enough clues that he isn't merely calculating. His > gentle behavior towards Narcissa is a *huge* clue if contrasted > with his behavior towards anybody else throughout the series. Betsy Hp: It's already been pointed out (by myself and others, I think) that Snape is as gentle (or even more so) with Draco as he is with Narcissa. So maybe it *is* a Malfoy family thing. > >>Neri: > Nor does he manages to maintain absolute control during the Vows - > before he makes that crucial last Vow his hand twitches inside > Narcissa'a hand, and he hesitates before answering. > Betsy Hp: Well, yes. This is the moment where everything goes pear-shaped so I'd expect Snape to react. Actually, the very fact that he *does* react goes towards my argument that when Snape is hit by an emotion there is usually *some* sort of tell. The bigger the emotion the bigger the tell, IMO. > >>Neri: > This whole UV scene is dramatic and powerfully symbolic. I would > feel rather cheated as a reader if it turns out that Snape was > merely calculating here. > Betsy Hp: I agree that this is a big moment, especially since it leads directly to Snape killing Dumbledore. I've got a working theory at the moment, but this is one of the things that has me eagerly awaiting book 7. Hopefully the payoff will be worth the wait. > >>Neri: > > Snape's message is silent, but it's obvious enough to me: "Your > dear Lucius is the one who got you into this, and I'm under no > obligation to mend his mistakes". Betsy Hp: Another point where we read the scenes differently. I thought Snape was making clear to Narcissa exactly why Draco was being set up for death. He was making it clear that he couldn't talk Voldemort out of this particular punishment. Basically he's letting Narcissa know how difficult the task she's asking of him is. In my view, anyway. > >>Betsy Hp: > > > > But he does show a certain amount of compassion for the Malfoy > > family and their woes. > >>Neri: > He does??? Can you quote that? I had the impression he's showing > compassion *only* for Narcissa... > Betsy Hp: Snape listens to Narcissa. He agrees that she (and her family) are in a hard way. He attacks Bellatrix (who attacks Narcissa's husband and son). Basically I think that Snape reacts to Narcissa as a wife and a mother throughout this scene. You feel he reacts to her as a woman. I would quote the very things you quote, so I don't think anything I'd put up would convince you. I *will* point out, however, that Narcissa comes to Snape as a wife and a mother. She speaks of her husband from the beginning; she defends him; she begs for help on behalf of her son. I think that if Narcissa felt Snape was interested in her romantically she'd have approached him in a different manner. (Less defense of the inconvenient husband, more talk about how alone she is, because of her husband's failings, etc.) > >>Neri: > > The whole connection between Snape and Lily at Hogwarts is > currently pure speculation, except for that "mudblood" in the > pensieve memory. And if it ever happened then it looks like Lily > failed, because grownup Snape was the head of house Slytherin for > many years and apparently kept the fact that he is a half-blood > very quiet. > Betsy Hp: What makes you say that? I'm quite sure that Nott, Zabini, Malfoy and that lot know their family trees backwards and forwards. And I'm pretty sure they know each other's trees too. So I'm quite sure they were aware that the name Snape doesn't match with any of the pureblood families. *Harry* didn't know, but he didn't realize that the Weasleys and the Malfoys are distant cousins. Something I'm sure Draco (and possibly Ron) were well aware of. Harry doesn't care about such things and so he doesn't enquire. > >>Betsy Hp: > > And if Snape *was* interested in the WW "aristocracy" > > shouldn't he adopt at least *some* of the trappings? Even while > > hating himself a little for doing it? > >>Neri: > The trappings of the aristocracy are typically very expensive (or > they wouldn't be used by aristocracy alone), and I doubt Snape's > means extend to manors and house elves. But how about adopting the > aristocracy manner of speaking? Not only the words, but also the > same sneering, demeaning attitude that Lucius is using. Betsy Hp: Yeah, but an apartment in the right neigborhood could be swung by a single guy. I've met social climbers and Snape ain't it. Not with his little house in that working class neighborhood. Sure, he talks like his friends, but judging by his wallflower behavior at Slughorn's party that's about all Snape picked up. > >>Neri: > The fact he made it clear is important, but also the *way* he did > it. I sincerely doubt that the grownup Sirius would ever shout to > anyone in any situation "I, the Black Padfoot!" but somehow it is > in character for grownup Snape. Betsy Hp: Oh, I think Sirius had his share of the Black taste for drama. I'm betting he could have declaimed with the best of them. (Lupin spouting a similar line would be totally out of left field, however.) > >>Neri: > > It's only Severus who styles himself a "Prince". Betsy Hp: Because he is. He's as much a Prince as he is a Snape. I think you're getting too hung up on the "Prince as in royalty" when it's really "Prince as in my mother's family". It's a play on words, and that's part of the reason I think someone not Snape (my vote is for Lily) came up with the nickname. > >>Betsy Hp: > > So Snape's madly in love with Narcissa. So what? What does it > > do for the next book's plot? What does it explain (except for > > the Vow)? How does it effect Harry? Does it even clear up some > > of Snape's ambiguity? > >>Neri: > Explaining the Vow is no small thing. It was the direct cause of > Dumbledore's death and Snape severing his relations with the Order. > Now, to know how does this affect Harry and the plot of Book 7 I > first need to know what the plot of Book 7 is, but I'd hazard a > guess that the effect would be considerable. Betsy Hp: That's the thing I'm most hung up on. Because I feel like the story should get simpler (ie one fact explaining several different mysteries) rather than more complicated. I just feel like the Snape/Narcissa ship while explaining one thing does nothing for any other thing. But I could well be wrong since I've no knowledge of book 7's plot either. > >>Betsy Hp: > > For me there is no doubt, that's true (no ESE!Snape argument has > > made sense to me, yet). > >>Neri: > When you came up with the title of this thread "ACID POPS vs > LOLLIPOPS" I was somehow assuming that we are going to evaluate > these two theories based on the canon we already know. But if we > are evaluating them based on fitting with Betsy's theories, then I > fully concede that LOLLIPOPS might be better. Betsy Hp: Oh hey now, there's no need to get snotty . You asked and I answered (don't want to be accused of hiding a bias). However, I did throw in a "but" to keep this discusson on the level. > >> Betsy Hp: > > But, even if you think Snape is ESE, LOLLIPOPS provides a motive > > that *Dumbledore* may have found credible. And it's something > > that Dumbledore would have been hesitant to share with Harry. > >>Neri: > > But my mother has been dead for many years now. Why do you trust > Snape *today*? Betsy Hp: That's where that "remorse" comment came in. Dumbledore believed that Snape was truely remorseful and that's why he trusts him today. > >>Neri: > And another big problem with LOLLIPOPS: If Snape was in love with > Lily, then his main reason to hate Sirius in PoA should have been > that Sirius betrayed Lily to her death and foiled Snape's attempt > to save her, right? > > But Lily practically doesn't count for Snape. From his words you'd > never even know that *two* people died that night at GH. Betsy Hp: Snape does seem to have a great dislike of Sirius. And the fact that Lily (great at potions Lily) is *never* spoken of by Snape is telling too, IMO. The thing about Lily and Snape is it's more about what's missing than what's there. (Who is the "horrible boy" for example.) Which is why it's really hard to pull up canon. (heh. I'm not convincing you at all, am I.) > >>Neri: > > In Spinner's End Snape surely shows contempt towards Wormtail, > which he has ample reason to, but how can he live with the person > he should have hated most in the world after Voldy? Betsy Hp: Maybe the vengence of treating Wormtail like utter crap and using him to defeat the man Wormtail serves is sufficient. Wormtail is certainly miserable, thanks to Snape, and Snape certainly seems to relish his misery. > >>Neri: > > In short, LOLLIPOPS as a theory for explaining Snape's motives and > Dumbledore's trust is full of gaping holes. It doesn't really > "explain" anything. Betsy Hp: I think it explains a whole heck of a lot. And the holes are exactly where you find the logic. It's kind of fun really. :) > >>Neri: > Like several other members I suspect that in the climax there will > be only room for one Noble Hero of that caliber, and as you say > this is a book about Harry. > Betsy Hp: So Sirius is chopped liver? James is a waste of space? Lily is yesterday's compost? The series is *filled* with heroes, many of them noble, and none of them stealing the spotlight from Harry. It is actually possible for Snape to be on the Order's side without Harry slipping off the stage. Betsy Hp who really did try to shorten this post From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 22:28:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:28:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dkeeberlibryn" wrote: > ..., I have read ... the HP series, and ... I came away with a > nagging feeling that ..., ... I just don't feel that he (Harry) is > prepared to do battle with the most powerful evil wizard in history > .... > > ..., based on the archetypal form that requires that the father must > die for the son to become a full man, I was fully expecting > Dumbledore to die in this book. ... But, further true to the > archetypal form, the powers of the father must pass to the son, ... > Unless Rowling either produces a 900 page monster, or she caves in > and writes an eighth book, I don't see how she will convincingly > bring about the necessary transformation of Harry ... > > I wonder if he will serve as the point of the spear that is > comprised of many others who join forces with Harry to bring about > the demise of V. > > The reason I state these concerns is that the series has offered the > archetypal forms very effectively throughout .... If the portray of > Harry is to be convincing and ... serve that myth... of holding > lessons for all, Harry will need to be much more convincingly drawn > to serve that laudable goal. bboyminn: Your right; the latest book did a lot to convey information regarding the plot and character/story background, Harry did not advance much as a wizard. If anything, I thought he slid backwards a bit. How can we expect Harry to do battle with the greatest most powerful wizard in the world, Voldemort, when he can't even curse Snape, not even silently while Snape's back is turned? To some extent, I find it extremely frustrating that Harry hasn't had a stronger education in defensive and offensive dueling. To a very limited extent I understand Harry's reluctance to ask for help. He's young and very independant, plus he doesn't really trust many people, and he certainly is NOT prone to running to adults for help, but he does desperately need help and help that only adults can give him. In the Occlumency class with Snape, we see that Harry has the capability to block unwanted memories. Unfortunately the circumstances in which and the methods by which he was taught this art left him will little confidence in his ability. He is capable of doing this, but no one seems interested in pushing the issue and encouraging him to continue practicing with the help of his friends. Of course, I can't blame it all on the adults, although it is their responsibility; Harry is very lazy about his practice. If it had been me, I would be researching Dark Arts and Anti-Dark Arts with every free minute of time. He could practice dueling with Harry and Ron. I sure he could even find other member of the D.A. Club, or members of the Order, who would duel with him. He has a set of Defense Against Dark Art Encyclopedias which were given to him at Christmas by Sirius and Remus. Instead of mucking about with the HBP Advance Potions book, he would have done much better to study and practice from his Defense Against Dark Arts book set. Look at how easily Dumbledore manuvered though the maze of enchantments in the cave, would it have killed him to explain to Harry how he knew some of the things he knew, so that Harry could be prepared to face the remaining Horcruxes? Would it have killed Dumbledore to answer a few of Harry questions? Now compound Harry lack of skill and training with the Horcrux search. That in and of itself, given how much information Harry has, is close to a lifetime endeavor. He knows so little, he could literally spend years to find the answers, and once he finds the answers, he is ill-equipped to deal with the recover of those enchanted objects. Why? Because Dumbledore didn't think it necessary to prepare him for it. Now the only possible resolution is either the Horcruxes are insignificant, or there must be some short-cut outside help in finding them. Still even once they are located, getting them is a task most likely beyond Harry. Excuse me while I scream. We know that to make a good story, the hero has to be the underdog. He has to be hopelessly out manned and out gunned, but the story has almost reached rediculous proportions. Either this series is going to be the most lamely finished series in history, or JKR will pull off a masterfully stunning twist of characters and plots. Though I admit, this last book hasn't left me feeling real confident. True Harry has the help of his friends, but most of his friends are even more poorly equipped than Harry, or they are remainng distant and silent. I have often speculated that in the end it will not be Harry who casts the fatal blow. Perhaps Dobby will destroy Voldemort; the least of us overcoming the greatest of us. Perhaps Neville will step in in the moment of Harry's defeat and cast the coup de gr?ce. Maybe a combination of people, like Harry/Ron/Hermione all casting the AK curse at the same time. I've even considered the possibility that Voldemort won't be killed, that he will instead be vaporized and the moral of the story will be the Evil is never truly gone. But for Harry to do it alone, is a complete mystery to me; I simply don't see how. Too much to do, too poorly prepared, too poorly organized, too poorly supported, and too little time to do it. You are right. Harry has SOOOOO MUCH to learn and SOOOO MUCH to do, that I can't imagine how it can all possibly fit into a single book. Again, the only solutions are either hopelessly Lame or stunningly Materful, and only time will tell. Not sure if I added anything, but there it is. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 22:30:08 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:30:08 -0000 Subject: Moral, Immoral, and Amoral: Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139143 vmonte: > Ever since I started reading the Harry Potter books I have never been > able to shake the feeling that Snape reminded me of the character > Iago, from "Othello." Iago is a very complex, "amoral" villain, very > different from the "immoral" Voldemort. Immoral villains are easy to > spot. You can understand what motivates them?everything is black and > white. Amoral villains, however, are complex and often difficult to > understand. They are often more devious and manipulative. Iago is in > almost every scene of "Othello" and has a hand in almost all of what > happens in the play. Iago also manipulates the other characters like > puppets. He is a great villain because his motivation does not rely > on an immoral conscience but rather his lack of conscience. Snape > also seems to have a hand in everything--although you find out about > his actions after the fact. a_svirn: You have me honestly baffled here. Suppose Iago had an immoral consciousness rather than lack thereof, in what way he would act differently? As for motivations: unlike Snape, Iago gives us a plethora of reasons: 1) he was passed over for promotion, 2) he believes that Othello cuckolded him and wants a "biblical" revenge "wife for wife", and last but not the least "I hate the Moor and hatred is my cause". And all of the aforementioned motivations are pretty "easy to spot" as you put it. I can see where one can find a certain affinity between the two, though: "We cannot all be masters, nor all masters / Cannot be truly follow'd" and even more tellingly: "But I will wear my heart upon my sleeve / For daws to peck at: I am not what I am". vmonte: > Snape's motivations are an enigma. What motivates Snape? Do we > really know? What made him become a DE? And what made him switch > sides? Finding out this information is key to figuring out Snape. a_svirn: Agreed. But then how can we classify his consciousness with any degree of precision? we are still in the dark. vmonte: > Voldemort is an immoral person and he revels in it. Immoral people > are easy to figure out. Eleven-year-old Tom Riddle bragged about how > he was able to hurt people, and Dumbledore saw right through him. "I > can make bad things happen to people who annoy me. I can make them > hurt if I want to" (The Secret Riddle, page 271). a_svirn: I'd say it sounds rather like "amoral" Iago. The whole plot of Othello is about Iago hurting people, because he wants toand bragging about it . From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 30 23:05:41 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:05:41 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139144 > bboyminn: > How can we expect Harry to do battle with the greatest most powerful > wizard in the world, Voldemort, when he can't even curse Snape, not > even silently while Snape's back is turned? Hickengruendler: Which basically was, what Snape told him as well, either while mocking him, or while giving him some instructions as his teacher. IMO, as nasty (and maybe evil) as Snape is, Harry not even really bothering to learn the silent spells proves, IMO, that he simply is not willing to learn anything from him, because he dislikes him. In contrast to him, both Hermione and Ernie seemed to think that Snape's first DADA lesson was a *good one*. This IMO also proves, that the catastrophic outcome of the Occlumency lessons was also Harry's fault, because he did not want to be taught by Snape of all people and was not willing to do what Snape told him. bboy: > Now the only possible resolution is either the Horcruxes are > insignificant, or there must be some short-cut outside help in finding > them. Still even once they are located, getting them is a task most > likely beyond Harry. Excuse me while I scream. Hickengruendler: I think part of this problem was solved by JKR. First of all, the Horcruxes do not seem to be protected the same way. It *was* Harry and nobody else who was able to destroy the diary (even though he didn't know it was a Horcrux at this time). Therefore it does seem to be possible for him to destroy at least some of them. And about the location: Well, five of them are left. One is in Voldemort, one is possibly with Voldemort, namely Nagini. They will probably be "located" together, right before the climax. One was in the possesion of R.A.B. and is probably easier to locate. That leaves only two. (And I highly suspect one is in Horcrux and will also be destroyed during the climax, but this is of course just speculation). While this still seems to be a difficult task, it is more likely than locating four or five. > We know that to make a good story, the hero has to be the underdog. He > has to be hopelessly out manned and out gunned, but the story has > almost reached rediculous proportions. Either this series is going to > be the most lamely finished series in history, or JKR will pull off a > masterfully stunning twist of characters and plots. Though I admit, > this last book hasn't left me feeling real confident. Hickengruendler: I don't think at all that the key to Voldemort's death lies in a face- to-face battle with Harry. (At least not directly). And why should it? Sauron wasn't defeated that way, neither was the Emperor in Star Wars. And both outcomes are far from being lame, IMO, of course. And I want to add that this point was mentioned in HBP. Harry, Ron and Hermione speculated, if Dumbledore would teach Harry some powerful spells. But he did not. To me, that clearly suggests that Dumbledore does not think that Harry would defeat Voldemort with such spells. Hickengruendler, who wants to add that if Harry had spent more time watching in his DADA instead of the Potions-Book, Ron would now be dead. There is a reason why Aurors are recquired to take Potions in their NEWT classes From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Aug 30 23:39:54 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (irene_mikhlin) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:39:54 -0000 Subject: School results was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's s In-Reply-To: <20050830003548.35882.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139145 Merry Kinsella wrote: > > Something OT I found sad in the pensieve scene is what appears to be > Snape's passion as a student. I think we can assume he was a > brilliant student in the Hermoine mold, though not as nice. :) But > there's Sirius and James ignoring their recent exams, there's Sirius > refusing to "test" Lupin while he studies for his transfiguration > OWL, because he knows every bit of that "Rubbish". And you know he > does. All the time in the world to pull wings off flies or pants off > Snapes, and still get top grades. Meanwhile Snape barely knows where > he's headed, he's so absorbed in his schoolwork. I don't think he's > a "grind" - I just think that's who he is. He loves that stuff. But > isn't rewarded for it any more than somebody like James and Sirius > who don't give a damn, because they do as well without caring. > I think they were of two different types of students. James and Sirius strike me as all-rounders - as you say, without too much effort they can get at least E grade in any subject they take. Snape, however, was probably a 'specialist' student - I can see him giving his complete attention to 3 or 4 subjects that interested him. Say, Potions, DADA and Charms, maybe Transfiguration. And completely ignoring the rest of the studies (what other compulsory subjects are there? Astronomy, History of Magic, what else?) So the student who got an 'O' in his specialist subjects but barely scrapped 'A' in the rest will be remembered as less brilliant than somebody who effortlessly gets 'E' in everything, with couple of 'O' thrown in. JKR may have inadvertently commented on grade inflation, which is a very popular topic everywhere two british teachers meet these days. Basically it means that somebody who goes extra mile (or extra foot of parchment) can't be distinguished from someone who does just enough. Irene From merylanna at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 22:52:36 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050830225236.83678.qmail@web30110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139146 merylanna at yahoo.com says: :) I'm responding to horridporrid's et al's discussion on Narcissa/Snape/Lily, but not one particular comment. Just putting my own out there because I don't see my POV here yet. I don't subscribe to Snape/Lily and feel the penseive scene showed why Snape, while probably James' victim as a student (Sirius doesn't tell Harry anything to dispel that, and Harry's desperate to hear some mitigating information), is hard to love. A girl comes along and says leave him alone, Snape bites "filthy mudblood." I think that's just Snape. Bad enough to be beset, he doesn't need James' little girl friend taking up for him, all heroine-esque. I think he disdains all of them. My OWN suspicion is in that scene he no more appreciated Lily than Heathcliff appreciated Isabelle. I think he's sick of that whole shining, popular, careless, talented little band, and the last thing that interests him is being reduced to a distraction for a bored Sirius and James or a way for Lily to prove her moral superiority to James. James/Lily in that scene to me was JKR Flirt 101 - Lily no more hated James there than Ron hated Hermoine when she went to the Yule ball with Krum. When James has Snape upside down JKR says Lily's mouth twitches, like she's trying not to smile. Narcissa - my read is 1,000 different than I've read here. I don't think he's personally moved by either woman, and Narcissa' theatrics are a bit of a chore. He is always stiff-arming Narcissa - even hoists her along to the sofa by the arms. She's doing the swooning maiden, he's doing touch-me-not. Narcissa's histrionics are manipulated by Snape to help him checkmate Bellatrix. I think Snape is playing Bellatrix like a violin in Chapter 2, SHE is the one he is managing; Narcissa is a pawn. Bellatrix shrieks on and on about her suspicions of Snape, she madly worships LV, she's jealous of Snape's status with him, and you know nothing's going to shut her up. Of course, I don't think Snape was agreeing to anything, in the UV, that he hadn't already agreed to for Dumbledore - the Spinner's End UV wasn't a dramatic event for Snape, but Bellatrix doesn't know this, and that works for him. He could have refused or backed off at any time since he was promising to disobey what Voldemort wanted (Voldemort wanted Draco to try, to punish Lucius). I think he wouldn't have bothered with the charade if Bellatrix wasn't there. He had a built in excuse not to take the Dumbledore part (I cannot. The Dark Lord, I am afraid, wishes Draco to do it) - but he lost nothing in taking it, because he'd already promised Dumbledore that if the time came, he'd do the deed. I don't think the twitch had anything to do with the immediate moment . I think Snape had been suffering under his promise to kill Dumbledore if it came to that ever since he made the promise - to Dumbledore, around the time Dumbledore came to him to get his hand treated. I think Snape/Dumbledore had the whole mind Draco/dead Dumbledore/re-join LV/help-Harry-like-this conversation then. Narcissa and Bellatrix just presented an idea that cost Snape nothing and shut down Bellatrix. He was basically revowing. There are many references in HBP of Narcissa's devotion to Draco. When the trio?? sneaks off to follow Draco, they think something must be big for him to have given mommy the slip. In GoF, it's mentioned Draco had been interested in Durmstrang, but mommy didn't want him to go that far away. I also felt a sharp, violent loyalty from Narcissa re Lucius when Bellatrix seemed to diss him. Narcissa/Draco/Lucius are kind of incestuous looking twins - they all sort of look alike, in my mind. Pale, very blond, good looking in an angular way (can't decide on Narcissa's looks. In GoF it's mentioned she'd be nice looking if she weren't so evil, but in HPB Harry notes how much she looks like Bellatrix despite the difference in coloring, and Bellatrix isn't described as a beauty queen). Snape has been described, by Sirius, as "Lucius's lapdog". I'm sure he's been to whatever the heck passes for social events at the Malfoys, and as Draco's fave teacher, he is on civil terms with the parents. But I think Spinner's End was ALL about Bellatrix for Snape. She's one loose cannon. She was the reason he enacted (re-enacted, I strongly suspect) the UV. Which of course, means I believe that on the tower, Snape killed dumbledore because he'd promised Dumbledore he'd do it whenever DD asked - way before (at least dating to Dumbledore's burnt hand) the two women visited Spinner's End. The Spinner's End result did play nicely into Snape's cover story though - although only he could finesse a betrayal of LV (the implied vow to kill DD if Draco failed) into a demonstration of loyalty to LV. Merylanna. From denya_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 21:59:37 2005 From: denya_2001 at yahoo.com (also_september_19) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:59:37 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139147 Derek: > > > > I think it's his worst memory because he called Lily a Mudblood. Allie: > I LOVE it!!! Hurting someone, even by accident or by ignorance, can > cause such guilt, and he threw that at her on purpose. Also-September-19th I've had this same thought about whether that memory was *in fact* Snape's worst. It is certainly something he wouldn't want Harry (specifically James' son) to see. But there *are* other memories in that pensieve. And this always seemed an unlikely worst... Embarassing. Shaming even. The sort of thing you would rather no- one ever find out, and still makes your toes curl when you think about it (I've definately got a couple of those from High School). But the worst thing that's ever happened to you? I'm not so sure about that... I also think that if I were Snape - and I had an adolescent boy in front of me, who I hated because his father had gotten the best of me (and then saved my life). My big advantage in this scenario is that I'm grown up now - and the kid in the room is *just* a kid. The last thing I would want him to see would be *me* being just a kid. I'd loose all my superior advantage! All the mystery of being "grown up". I've always thought that was probably the main reason that particular memory went into the pensieve with the other two to be protected from Harry. Just a thought... Also-September-19th (Denya) From denya_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 21:37:54 2005 From: denya_2001 at yahoo.com (also_september_19) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:37:54 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139148 Delwynmarch wrote: > We keep hearing about the Life Debt, but interestingly enough we are > never told how it works. I doubt that's an oversight. < massive snip of Del's theory. Go UPTHREAD to read it> Also-September-19 I'm posting back without constructing first - probably a mistake on this list - but it's late here (in Holland) and the whole issue of the life debts and what they mean has also been bothering me. I think the idea that you cannot be part of killing the person you owe a life debt to is a good working hypothsis - though I don't think there's any support for this in the text. In fact, I can't think of any place the workings of a life debt are explained. But that you can't murder the person who saved your life seems pretty intuitively correct. There are two life debts floating around... Peter P's to Harry, and Snape's to James... I have to believe they will come back with some significant force in the last book... The problem with your (very very clever) idea of Snape transfering the debt to DD and then repaying it with saving DD from the curse of the ring (whatever that was) - is that it doesn't explain DD's absolute certainty about Snape throughout the book. He doesn't hesitate. (& we see with his treatment and opinion of Tom Riddle that he's perfectly capable of having reservations about someone, and still giving them the benefit of the doubt, but, as Harry says, not really trusting them.) I see no sign of these reservations about Snape. Also, since we know the Dada job is cursed, why would Snape (evil or good) want it? The only real perk it comes with is a guarenteed exit from Hogwarts. It's not like the Dada teacher has access to magical books or object that other professors don't. Or at least I don't remember that coming up anywhere. But I'm with you on the idea that life debts are more important than they seem now. And also that it's not unintentional on JKR's part that we haven't been told more about them before now. And I think I'm with you on Snape having a real problem with his life debt to James through (unwittingly) being the cause of his death. This *must* have had consequences. And I've been wondering about what they are for books now! (By the by, does V know that PeterP has a life debt to Harry?) Well, I hope that post made sense... Also-September-19th (Denya) From tammiemg at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 21:37:44 2005 From: tammiemg at yahoo.com (tammiemg) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:37:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139149 Merrylinks wrote further: > Harry's OWL grades show that he has adequate but not outstanding > skills as a sixteen year old wizard. But Harry is surrounded by > friends who are willing to risk death at his side. By contrast, > although Voldemort has proven than he has unparalleled wizarding > skills, he has no friends. When he battles Harry, he battles him > alone. When Harry battles Voldemort, he has a huge number of loyal > friends at his side. In other words, Harry already has the "power the > Dark Lord knows not" and will be able to defeat him, with a little > help from his friends. I have been struck throughout the books at the seemingly lack of dedication Harry puts towards his studies as did the earlier generation of his parents, Snape or even Tom Riddle. However, when push comes to shove, Harry has learned the skills he needed, the Partronus charm with Lupin, the Accio charm for the Dragons at the first task and even dedicating himself to learning enough to teach the DA's in OP. It is a nagging feeling (Harry may not be fully prepared) that returns when reading the last chapter of the HBP where Harry himself realizes he will never have the chance to learn again from Dumbledore and that DD knew so VERY much, speaking mermish for example. Is it possible, that with the help of his friends as recounted above, that DD has prepared Harry for what he will need to know as he goes forward? What lessons will life teach Harry that will be much more valuable than what can be gleaned by texts and classnotes? Isn't that the thing about our lives that college, high school and even graduate school could never have taught us....we learn more in the classroom of life than we could ever have been prepared? In the end, I also suspect that this next book will be longer for just the development of character to the point where the final battle can and will take place. I antcipate Harry's learning curve to make the jump that it needs and look forward to savoring every word of the book! Tammiemg. From mariabronte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 01:06:27 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:06:27 -0000 Subject: Celibate Snape (Was:Harry's story , NOT Snape's ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139150 > Carol: > I agree with colebiancardi that many of Snape's passions are not > sexual but intellectual (an early interest in the Dark Arts, a love of > potions, a determination to know *everything* about DADA, as indicated > by his DADA OWL, crammed with details in his tiny handwriting, > inventing his own spells and improvements on potions in his teens or > earlier, his walls full of books at Spinner's End, the ongoing > challenge of fooling the Dark Lord through Occlumency and undetected > lies). But I think his personal passions, the ones he doesn't want to > wear on his sleeve for fear of being thought weak--or, alternatively, > uses to cultivate an image for himself), are equally important (a > personal desire for revenge against Voldemort for whatever reason, a > personal loyalty to Dumbledore, a personal hatred of James for leaving > him with an unfulfilled life debt, etc.) Now Mari: This makes a lot of sense, Carol; this is the impression I have always had of Snape. He has been able to satisfy his intellectual passions but for various reasons has had to bury any other passions very deeply, or at least not betray what he feels. At times he *does* explode because these feelings have no outlet, I am sure of it. I also have trouble seeing him as being particularly attractive to women. This doesn't mean he never had a crush on anyone, or never had sexual feelings, simply that I think it is unlikely that any feelings he had were reciprocated. For me, that is the main stumbling block to the idea that Lily or Narcissa were in love with him. If Snape was in love with either of *them* I wonder if they ever found out? And what transpired if they did? So, yes, I think the idea of celibate Snape is definitely a possibility; the circumstances of his life so far certaintly don't seem to suggest that any sexual feelings he had were either fulfilled or reciprocated. Mari. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 01:16:53 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:16:53 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.'s identity confirmed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139151 > > Hpfan_mom: > > > > Hickengruendler noted that if R.A.B. is Regulus Arcturus Black, as HP > > Lexicon asserts, that would "make the translation of Regulus' first > > and middle name 'King Arthur'." > > > > With that in mind, what are the implications (if any) of Ginny > > Weasley's real name being Ginevra, which is the Italian form of > > Guinevere? > > Derek: > Or the fact that there was a recurring song of "Weasley Is Our King" > throughout OP, while Mr. Weasley's name is "Arthur?" Or that Harry > once dreamed of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns? Antosha: Or that the wayward Weasley son is named Percy (Percival)? Probably not much. Arthurian names are pretty hard to avoid in England. I would be surprised if there was some huge connection between Ginny and Regulus. But it is interesting to wonder. "Regulus," IIRC, means 'little king' or prince--there was a lot of speculation just a few months ago that HE might have been the HBP. And "Arcturus" means 'guardian of the bear'--do we know any bears in canon? From carodave92 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 01:25:33 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:25:33 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.'s identity confirmed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139152 Antosha wrote: > > "Regulus," IIRC, means 'little king' or prince--there was a lot of speculation just a few > months ago that HE might have been the HBP. And "Arcturus" means 'guardian of the > bear'--do we know any bears in canon? Carodave replies: There is one animagus frequently described as a bear-like dog - maybe in the end Regulus did something to save / help Sirius as part of his redemption? Maybe Sirius had something to do with his brother's decision to leave the DEs? Carodave. From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Aug 31 01:54:28 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:54:28 -0000 Subject: Too late for apologies (was Re: Apologizing to Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > > colebiancardi: > > And look where Snape is now - in the DE's lair with Voldy, having to > *kill* Dumbledore, a man whom I believe Snape respected and loved > very much(as a parental-like figure). > > And this, I think, is the rub. Whatever you think about the source of Snape's actions on the tower, as far as Harry is concerned he's murdered Dumbledore. That rather overwhelms most everything else. I don't think Harry should have apologized to Snape. It would have been a futile gesture that would have only made things worse -- knuckling under to a bully is never a good policy. Nor do I think that was what JKR was trying to show, she never had Dumbledore or any other adult ever suggest that Harry apologize to Snape, or even thank him for saving his life -- indeed, DD sometimes seems to go out of his way to let Harry know that Snape's motives are not selfless. Besides, it would have been an insipid storyline, IMO. However, all that is water under the bridge. The time for apologies and taking the high road in that way, if it ever existed, is long past. The question now MAY be whether Harry can forgive Snape. And at this point, I think for a forgiveness storyline to work it means that Snape has to have done something to be forgiven for -- just laying out his side of the story and saying that "if you look at the evidence I have an arguable case" isn't going to cut it. I don't think a forgiveness storyline, at this point, can be "We've both done things wrong, I apologize for mine whether you apologize for yours or not." As I say, the time for reconciliation of that sort, if it was ever possible (and I, for one, don't think it ever was, as even Lupin acknowledges in a backhand way) has now come and gone. Now the only kind of storyline that could effectively serve to illustrate forgiveness is one that is on a much higher, and if you will much more theological, plain. It is one where Harry says, "You have genuinely sinned, Severus, and I will not pretend you have not or pretend that I can remove whatever objective guilt you bear. I will, however, for my part, grant you forgiveness, as Dumbledore did." Lupinlore From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 02:24:13 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:24:13 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139154 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Hiemforth" wrote: > I'm not going to pretend that I have done anywhere near the level > of assessment of Snape's character that many on the list have done. > Heck, I'm not even sure whether Snape is Evil!Snape or Good!Snape > or Selfish!Snape or some combination thereof. > > But one thing I have a very strong hunch about is that the key to > understanding Snape is contained in the "Snape's Worst Memory" > chapter of OP. Namely, why was that his worst memory? What > element of that incident is the one so horrific to Snape that he > considers it his worst memory? > > I can't shake the feeling that when we know for certain the answer > to that question, we'll be able to determine which Snape is the > Real!Snape. And since I shouldn't really make that assertion > without throwing in a theory, here's my theory... ;-) > > I think it's his worst memory because he called Lily a Mudblood. > > - Derek Valky: I can't yet say I am abolutely sure that your guess about Lily is correct, Derek. But what I cn say is that your post got e thinking exactly how to narrow down the item list of things in the Pensieve - SWM. Which would be something like: James and Sirius teasing him. His underwear getting shown off. Lily coming to his rescue. Using the Sectumsempra curse. Insulting Lily. Couldn't we use canon to eliminate them down to one. For example: James and Sirius Teasing him - he has more memories of this happening, its probably not the only one - Eliminated. His Underwear getting shown off - Lupin says everyone was doing it to everyone in his day at Hogwarts, not unusual so he probably has more memories of dangling upside down too - Eliminated Lily coming to the rescue - Having a Muggleborn girl stand up for you might be particularly embarrassing for someone whose friends are purists - Leave in. Using the Sectumsempra Curse - He was promising to use something nasty on James, probably not unusual - Eliminated. Insulting Lily - This came as a complete shock to Lily, so it's fair to assume he might not have done this before, certainly not on a regular basis - Leave in. This process of elimination puts Snapes Worst Memory clearly in Lily's court. By elimination having her come to his rescue and insulting her were the most unusual things in the memory. OKay I am back on that darn ship again... Valky leaps off the plank and swims safely to shore. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 31 02:31:51 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:31:51 -0000 Subject: Celibate Snape (Was:Harry's story , NOT Snape's ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139155 > Now Mari: > > This makes a lot of sense, Carol; this is the impression I have > always had of Snape. He has been able to satisfy his intellectual > passions but for various reasons has had to bury any other > passions very deeply, or at least not betray what he feels. At > times he *does* explode because these feelings have no outlet, > I am sure of it. Potioncat: Celibacy was once a more accepted lifestyle. Now I think it's considered somehow abnormal. But in the sense of a life style choice, I agree with Carol. If your role is double agent, it would be a tad difficult to set up housekeeping and raise a batch of kids. Which persona would you use to teach them values? And unless he was attracted to a like-minded double agent, he couldn't risk a relatinship. Snape's comment to Narcissa makes me think he has already lost someone to LV. So, unless JKR decides to show us how the teachers each spend their summer vacations, I'd think Snape has chosen a time of celibacy. Doesn't mean, of course that it was always the case or always will be the case. > Mari: > I also have trouble seeing him as being particularly attractive to > women. This doesn't mean he never had a crush on anyone, or > never had sexual feelings, simply that I think it is unlikely that any > feelings he had were reciprocated. Potioncat: If only the very handsome, and only the socially adept were able to fulfill sexual feelings, there would be far fewer people in the world. JKR's chemistry teacher, the model for Snape, was married. (although I cannot speak to how close a model he was.) In the WW, I'd bet Crabbe, Goyle and even Millicent could all find life-partners. Certanily Snape could. Not Lily or Narcissa perhaps; but we don't know he aspired to either of them. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 31 02:40:44 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:40:44 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139156 Valky: > This process of elimination puts Snapes Worst Memory clearly in Lily's > court. By elimination having her come to his rescue and insulting her > were the most unusual things in the memory. > > OKay I am back on that darn ship again... > > Valky leaps off the plank and swims safely to shore. Potioncat: Valky meets Potioncat,who has a LOLLIPOP in her hand and is looking at it with disgust. "You too?" Valky asks. Not yet...but... Ask not why Snape is mean to Harry and Neville, ask instead why he is mean to Hermione. We've seen him around other Muggleborns and he hasn't been particularly obnoxious to them. Who could she remind him of? Was there once a clever Muggleborn witch in his company? One who strived to be the best at every class? One who excelled in Potions? An insufferable know it all, perhaps? Prefect too, no doubt. From susanwob at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 23:08:41 2005 From: susanwob at yahoo.com (Susan O'Bones) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:08:41 -0700 Subject: Dolores Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139157 >>> > > Samantha wrote: >>>> > > > Now that it is obvious nothing is going to be done about all the >>>> > > > cruel and malicious things Umbridge did while at Hogwarts, what >>>> > > > would you like to see happen to her now? What would be justice? Susan O'Bones: Okay, mine isn't really a punishment for ol' Dolores, just a bit of a regret at an opportunity lost. I always thought that one of the students incarcerated in her detentions (post-Dumbledore exit) should've done a surreptitious transfiguration on the HEADMISTRESS sign on her desk. You'd only have to change the first two letters -- HE to TO. Wonder if she ever would have noticed. My first post here, by the way. Hi! How in the world do y'all keep up? Susan O'Bones From sunnylove0 at aol.com Wed Aug 31 02:48:16 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:48:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's character development Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139158 In a message dated 8/30/2005 4:29:43 PM Mountain Standard Time, bboyminn at yahoo.com writes: How can we expect Harry to do battle with the greatest most powerful wizard in the world, Voldemort, when he can't even curse Snape, not even silently while Snape's back is turned? To some extent, I find it extremely frustrating that Harry hasn't had a stronger education in defensive and offensive dueling. To a very limited extent I understand Harry's reluctance to ask for help. He's young and very independant, plus he doesn't really trust many people, and he certainly is NOT prone to running to adults for help, but he does desperately need help and help that only adults can give him. I completely agree with you here. But Voldemort has faced 40 years of dueling with the best wizards in the UK. (Dumbledore especially). Dueling with Voldemort is what he expects. It is the "power the Dark Lord knows not" that Harry must use as his weapon (shades of "A Wrinkle In Time"). And considering Priori Incantatem, the dueling option has been taken out of the equation anyway, especially with Ollivander's disappearance. I think this is why Dumbledore's preparation for Harry is more the a biography and an emotional understanding of his enemy than anything else. Which, IMO, he surpasses Dumbledore, by pointing out that if Voldemort had had a living mother to bond with, he might have turned out far differently. Amber who does not admire Merope very much. When her plans break down, she breaks down. She's a disgrace to Slytherin. Though considering her abusive upbringing, it's horribly understandable. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 31 02:49:07 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:49:07 -0000 Subject: Adds nothing new Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139159 Potioncat stares at the computer, not knowing which is worse, the number of typoes in her last two posts or the content. She has just written one "Snape is celibate and never pined for Lily or Cissy" post followed immediately by a "LOLLIPOP" post. There is only one thing to do: go write a post proving Snape is ESE!. And of course, she has now written a post that adds nothing new to any discussion. Before starting on the ESE!Snape post, she will bang her head multiple times with a great big Catalogue....and then look for a dictionary. Potioncat From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 03:00:50 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:00:50 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.'s identity confirmed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139160 >Derek: Or the fact that there was a recurring song of "Weasley Is Our King" throughout OP, while Mr. Weasley's name is "Arthur?" Or that Harry once dreamed of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns? vmonte: I've been thinking for a while that the Weasley's are the heirs of Gryffindor (Dumbledore too). >Antosha: Or that the wayward Weasley son is named Percy (Percival)? Probably not much. Arthurian names are pretty hard to avoid in England. I would be surprised if there was some huge connection between Ginny and Regulus. But it is interesting to wonder. vmonte: Dumbledore also has the name Percival in his name. Vivian From pipes814 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 03:36:48 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:36:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > You are right. Harry has SOOOOO MUCH to learn and SOOOO MUCH to do, > that I can't imagine how it can all possibly fit into a single book. > Again, the only solutions are either hopelessly Lame or stunningly > Materful, and only time will tell. > > Not sure if I added anything, but there it is. > > Steve/bboyminn I agree with you. It does seem that Harry isn't nearly as prepared as he should be. You'd think when the greatest dark magician ever has wanted you dead since birth, you'd have a few more private lessons than he got. He does seem to have way too much to learn and do in one book, and if JKR was writing this story one book at a time, I'd be worried. However, the whole thing has been planned out for a long time and since she has captivated me with this story more than anyone ever has I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. My vote is for "stunningly masterful". Jamie From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 04:51:45 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:51:45 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: <20050830225236.83678.qmail@web30110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139162 > merylanna at y... says: :) > Narcissa/Draco/Lucius are kind of incestuous looking twins - they all sort of look alike, in my mind. Pale, very blond, good looking in an angular way (can't decide on Narcissa's looks. In GoF it's mentioned she'd be nice looking if she weren't so evil, but in HPB Harry notes how much she looks like Bellatrix despite the difference in coloring, and Bellatrix isn't described as a beauty queen). zgirnius: Harry believes Bella to have been beautiful. OotP, start of Chapter 25: "Like Sirius, she retained vestiges of great good looks, but something-perhaps Azkaban-had taken most of her beauty". So I think it is safe to assume that Cissy is in fact also good looking. From ragingjess at hotmail.com Tue Aug 30 21:23:16 2005 From: ragingjess at hotmail.com (Jessica Bathurst) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:23:16 -0400 Subject: Spy vs. Spy (was: The Eggplant and Snape and I) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139163 Original Jessica (OJ): > > Either Snape was working alone Eggplant: >In which case it was an act of betrayal just as I said. OJ: > > or he had an agreement with Dumbledore. Eggplant: >Then Dumbledore really is senile and Snape should be reprimanded for >taking advantage of him. Current Jessica: Having considered this further, I can't believe that Dumbledore would send a spy into Voldemort's camp without discussing with said spy the importance of maintaining cover, and what actions should be taken if that cover should be threatened. Part of what interests me about this spy subplot is the sketchy morality it introduces into the Potterverse. Once you've got a guy on "our side" who's asked to impersonate someone loyal to the enemy as part of some grand strategy, you have to consider how far you're willing to go to ensure that that spy will not be compromised. How important is the spy to business you're conducting? Should the spy maintain his position by any means necessary? At some point, Dumbledore and Snape would have had to have this conversation, and beyond protecting the students, I can see a Dumbledore that tells Snape to do what needs to be done to make sure that he's in the Death Eater camp as long as possible. Again, Dumbledore certainly thinks that his own life is of less value than the endgame: the destruction of Voldemort. And the possibilities of a man in Big V's camp are endless: Snape may be feeding the DEs and Big V false information about the OoP's plans (and if I were Dumbledore, I'd make sure Snape had as little information about the actual plans as possible, so I don't think Snape knows about the Horcruxes. Is there any canon definitively stating that he does?), he may need to available to clear a path for Harry to Big V, or he may take on Big V himself to buy Harry time, if necessary. I'm not certain how to square the spy subplot with the thought that killing rips the soul, since that sort of dirty business abounds in the espionage game. It seems a bit incongruous to me. Eggplant: >Dumbledore must think Harry and Snape are expendable too because he >must know that one result of his "plan" is that if and when Voldemort >is defeated Harry will dedicate his life to killing Snape. Another interesting question: would Harry seeking revenge on Snape after Voldemort is defeated be morally equivalent to Tom Riddle seeking revenge on his father? After all, because of these men, Harry and Tom are orphans. Of course, I'm being facetious here, but I think revenge is frowned upon in Harry's world, and I don't see him going off after Snape when the whole story is over. It doesn't fit in with the whole "all you need is love" refrain. (I'm whistling here.) Eggplant: >It is a fact that for 16 years Snape has been a good enough secret >agent to fool either Dumbledore or Voldemort or both (I think both). >You have to be pretty smart to do that and it would be >uncharacteristically brain dead dumb to make a beginner's blunder like >that (ed by Jessica: be taken in by Narcissa and make a UV without knowing >what it's all about). Actually, hasn't Snape only been fooling Voldemort for the last two years? I assume only someone with a brain can read someone else's mind, so Voldemort has only been able to read Snape's since the end of GOF. Has he been communicating with Snape in some other fashion for the prior 14? Original Jessica, referring to the bell tower: > > once Snape enters the room, any > > surprise advantage he may have > > is gone. Eggplant: >Not true, the Death Eaters think Snape is on their side and do not >expect him to attack them. Current Jessica: I still think you can only attack one wizard at a time, although I'm woefully bad with weapons trajectory. The DEs all have their wands out, and it wouldn't take much time for someone to figure out Snape was shooting AT them, not with them. And this is how unarmed men get 37 bullets in the chest by merely pulling out their wallets. OJ: > > Snape kills one DE, he might have > > enough time to kill another > before he's set upon by the > remaining >hyped-up and extremely > > trigger-happy DEs, whom he will > > then have to fight, along with > > Grayback Eggplant: >Snape is far more powerful than the Death Eaters, I think he'd have a >pretty good chance of killing them all in a surprise attack. And if he >failed.,well. better to die than betray your friends. Current Jessica: But the endgame! Whither the endgame?!? How would the death of two powerful wizards on the OoP's side benefit anyone, especially Harry? Eggplant: >That is one of his (Snape's) goals; I think the other is to become the most >powerful wizard in the world and to do that he must kill Dumbledore too. I've actually posted this before (and to you, my dear aubergine!), but I post part of it again here: What does Snape plan to do as head bad guy? I'd guess he'd start by eliminating his enemies, but there only appears to be about ten of them, and their number is dwindling by the month. What Snape's big plan? He's got somewhere between 20 and 40 Death Eaters (if they all make it), the giants (I think), and the Dementors (who are a wild card). Is he going to topple the Ministry? Operate a secret terror cell? Rid the UK of muggles? Invade Russia? (This, by the way, would be poor strategic planning. I think we all know that. Brutal winters.) Eggplant: >But this (ed by Jessica: be taken in by Narcissa and make a UV without >knowing what it's all about) is so blatant, it would be such an incredibly >stupid thing to >do, and this is Snape we're talking about. Do you really expect JKR to >write her next book on this foundation? What a hideous turkey that >would be! To make the good Snape theory work you must pile up stupid and >uncharacteristic actions on top of improbable coincidences on top of >illogical plans on top of a bad plot to produce a dreadful book. And I >just don't think that's going to happen. I know you're not accusing me of having a "good Snape" theory, because we went that round already. I merely have a "not-evil" Snape theory, or possibly a "by any means necessary" Snape theory (which I will refer to as "Severus X." Privately.). I think we can't possible know what Rowling has in store for the next book, but I'm pretty sure that the spy subplot I'm so interested in will not figure as prominently as I would like it to. I'd also be a bit disappointed if she went the whole "Snape fell to the dark side, but will have a moment of moral clarity just at the moment when Harry is about to be killed by Voldemort, and will save Harry by attacking Voldemort, destroying himself in the process." Oh wait, that's "Star Wars." My bad. On that Lucas note, I'd like to point out to everyone who's been posting with the cheesy Rowling lines, at least she's never written this one: "Severus, hold me like you did by the lake at Hogwarts." And for that we can all be grateful. Yours, Jessica, who's rambling because she's on a library computer with a time limit. Stupid Florida. From merylanna at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 23:12:28 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moral, Immoral, and Amoral: Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050830231228.88604.qmail@web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139164 merylanna at yahoo says: apologies for another "non-reply" post but I want to sum up my sense of the Spinner's End dynamic. I think we saw the two women outside Snape's home first for a reason - so we could see the dynamic between them - a dynamic I think Snape already knows and uses to his advantage to control Bellatrix when the two are in his home. Narcissa is in charge of the sisters. Bellatrix is all evil bluster, always running off at the mouth, chicken-littling, etc. Control Narcissa, you can control Bellatrix. And Bellatrix needs to be controlled, and Snape has something Narcissa wants (the promise of protection for Draco) Narcissa has one thing on her mind - Draco. She makes it absolutely clear she will AK Bellatrix on the spot if Bellatrix gets in her way, and this rocks Bellatrix. Bellatrix does not threaten her back - she's all Cissy this and Cissy that and please Cissy and you must not. Bellatrix is kind of like an even meaner Quirrell, IMO - she is palpitating for recognition from the Dark Lord, for him to see her as THE loyal servant, THE one who will do anything for him, and man does she bleat about Snape. Narcissa has more focus. She also has the money. And greater status in the dark world. Bellatrix is still jockeying for her status. So, when the two women are in Snape's home, Snape, IMO, is well aware Narcissa runs the show. If he protects Draco (a promise that, I suspect, cost him nothing since he'd already vowed every essential to Dumbledore), Narcissa will keep Bellatrix in line - shut her up, IOW. Make her keep quiet with her "whispers to the Dark Lord" about Snape's treachery. If Snape promises to protect Draco, and Bella threatens that protection by undermining Snape to Voldy, Bellatrix will be AK'd to kingdom by Narcissa - if she's lucky. I think that was all that was going on in Spinner's End - the action there was Snape "taking care of" the troublesome Bellatrix. For viewers, it was our first glimpse of the unbreakable vow concept - which I suspect had come into play for Snape prior to the opening chapter of HBP. AND it was our glimpse into how Snape operates as a double agent. Bellatrix is in line with all the other diarhea-of-the-mouth Lord Voldy minion-wannabes - losers like Peter Pettigrew, Quirrell. They cause all kinds of trouble. I definitely believe he knew exactly what Draco's orders were. The Dark Lord had just recently failed to kill Dumbledore (at the ministry) - which Bellatrix starts to blurt before the hand clap to the mouth (or whatever she did). Whoever does the deed will have glory beyond imagining. I knew it was Dumbledore and not Harry, because of the ministry, and because Dumbledore has to go before Voldy can GET Harry. The twitch, IMO, was a clue to Snape's emotional state of being - he knew what he was vowing - he'd already vowed it to D - but it was very, very difficult for him. From merylanna at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 02:19:44 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Celibate Snape (Was:Harry's story , NOT Snape's ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050831021944.23881.qmail@web30110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139165 Mari wrote: So, yes, I think the idea of celibate Snape is definitely a possibility; the circumstances of his life so far certaintly don't seem to suggest that any sexual feelings he had were either fulfilled or reciprocated.>>> :) merylanna replied: I enjoy the discussion of HP characters' love lives and sexual histories since it's such a young adult book I think JKR emphasizes paternal/maternal/friendship much more. She almost writes romantic love tongue-in-cheek. I'd be surprised if she decided any character were driven/motivated mostly by thwarted romantic love -- not in an essential, plot propelling way. It feels that way to me, anyhow, and going mostly by interviews and character histories thus far - to be something she shuns. (Lest it, I think, play into young girl fantasies she thinks aren't healthy. JKR seems to place huge emphasis on the kind of love that's available to everybody if their heart is open.) When asked about Sirius's love life she kind of blew it off - didn't have the time to get a girlfriend, what with Azkaban and hiding and all that. She's an author for whom sexuality = boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse - nothing dicier. (I, of course, can speculate Sirius had no interest in a girlfriend. He was in love with James. And w/out having read any fan fic I bet there's tons of James/Sirius fanon out there. Their interplay in "Snape's Worst Memory" struck me as more Merchant Ivory than anybody else's romantic feelings in that event. So Snape, again, I feel for him, love is represented by Dumbledore. I do suspect Eileen Prince, his mother, has to enter it his history somewhere or why bother to introduce her? I think Dumbledore is important to Snape because Dumbledore is a great, great wizard, more brilliant than the stars above, and he values Snape beyond measure and places his trust in him. That could be the crowning achievement of Snape's life - probably is. And, of course, one suspects Dumbledore believed Snape when Snape turned away from LV at the height of LV's powers (and in return for that belief, I speculate it was then that Snape volunteered, via an Unbreakable Vow, to be Dumbledore's man through and through. Whatever Dumbledore asked, Snape would do - and I suspect Dumbledore ASKS - doesn't tell, and would allow Snape to say no, and Snape never has - although at times he has second thoughts (the argument in the forest)) So, that preamble out of the way, I don't infer much romantically from Snape's history, but I think there are probably a bunch of celibate characters in JKR's series and we're not meant to feel too badly. But because to me Snape's key history is tied to Dumbledore's role at critical points in his life, I sometimes infer hurt from Snape, as when he said to Dumbledore "Need I remind you, headmaster, that Lupin (was it Lupin he was speaking of) tried to kill me?" I inferred that he was speaking out of anger that trying to kill Snape didn't weigh enough with Dumbledore, that the mauraders still bought so much leniency with Dumbledore. I have no clue if my inference is any more right than inferences about Lily or anything else in the book - Snape could be saying this purely out of dislike for Lupin, and not trying to prod Dumbledore to choose him, in a way. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 05:52:11 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:52:11 -0000 Subject: Snape and Wormtail (Was: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139166 Betsy Hp wrote: > Maybe the vengence of treating Wormtail like utter crap and using > him to defeat the man Wormtail serves is sufficient. Wormtail is > certainly miserable, thanks to Snape, and Snape certainly seems to > relish his misery. Carol responds: First, my apologies for the huge snips. Anyone interested in the POPS debate should go back upthread and respond to the snipped portions. I agree that Snape treats Wormtail with withering contempt as the coward he is, but I don't think that Wormtail's newly acquired hunchback (the clearest sign that Wormatail has indeed been abused) is Snape's doing. Snape can only have been with him for about two months, and we have never seen him use Crucio or any form of physical torture. He mocks Wormtail and refers to him as "vermin" to his face, but he also gives him the choice of returning to Voldemort and offers to request a more challenging assignment for him if he wants it. Wormtail scurries off to get the wine as ordered, listens at the door as Snape offers a toast to the Dark Lord (staged for his benefit?), then scurries upstairs with a whimper as Snape puts some sort of spell on the door (I'm guessing an Impervius like the one Mrs. Weasley put on the kitchen door in OoP but with an extra "bang" as warning to Wormtail.) Anyway, I think it's Voldemort (who knows neither mercy nor gratitude), who has reduced Wormtail to this condition and has placed him with Snape knowing that Snape despises him and will treat him with contempt and that Wormtail will retaliate by spying on Snape. At any rate, it's interesting that Snape should treat Wormtail much as he treated Sirius in OoP, as if they were both cowards. I'm sure that he thought Sirius was a murderer until the end of PoA if not longer. He *knows* that Wormtail is a murderer of twelve Muggles (though he may not know about Cedric) and that he's responsible for restoring Voldemort. There's also the matter of betraying the Potters, for which Wormtail has shown no remorse, only grovelling. Snape, admittedly, revealed the Prophecy to Voldemort, but it appears from PoA that he tried to warn James afterwards that one of his friends had betrayed him and certainly Snape went to Dumbledore with the information that LV was trying to kill the Potters. So the difference between Snape (not yet ensnared by the Unbreakable Vow) and Pettigrew appears to be that Snape holds Pettigrew in contempt for his self-serving cowardice, multiple murders, and unrepentant betrayal whereas Snape has not yet committed murder and has no plan to do so (not realizing what's in store for him) and regrets his role in the Potters' deaths. Wormtail, OTOH, fears Snape and obeys him, apparently fearing that Snape will indeed turn him back over to his master, who would abuse him physically and assign him some less humiliating but more difficult and dangerous task. IOW, Snape's contempt for Wormtail is real and deserved. Wormtail's fear is also real, but less than his fear of Voldemort. My point is that if there's no difference between Snape and Wormtail, if both are murderers (or in Snape's case, planning to become a murderer despite having "slithered out of action" on many previous occasions) and both are traitors, why don't they share a common bond as fellow DEs, loyal servants of Voldemort? In fact, shouldn't Wormtail, whose sacrificed hand and potion/incantation restored Voldemort to his quasi-human form, have the upper hand? (Pun unavoidable.) Force of personality is clearly one factor, but can it be that Snape's contempt for Wormtail, shared by the majority of readers and by Harry, is a clue that Snape really is on the side of good? I happen to think that Snape is already ensnared by the DADA curse at this point but doesn't yet know it, and that he carefully engineers most of the scene (Wormtail overhears the toast but nothing else, Bellatrix's doubts are cleared away before Narcissa is allowed to make her request, etc.). But despite the role he is playing as the Dark Lord's favorite, the (apparent) bluff about knowing what the Dark Lord wants draco to do, and the identifiable lies he tells Bellatrix, his contempt for Wormtail does not seem feigned. What can it mean other than that Snape considers himself to be true to the cause (or Dumbledore personally) and Wormtail to be a contemptible and cowardly traitor? Carol, who, like Dumbledore, is probably taking too much for granted but doesn't see any other way to interpret the Snape/Wormtail relationship From carodave92 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 02:38:15 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:38:15 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139167 Valky wrote: > I can't yet say I am abolutely sure that your guess about Lily is > correct, Derek. But what I cn say is that your post got e thinking > exactly how to narrow down the item list of things in the Pensieve - > SWM. Which would be something like: > > James and Sirius teasing him. > His underwear getting shown off. > Lily coming to his rescue. > Using the Sectumsempra curse. > Insulting Lily. > Using the Sectumsempra Curse - He was promising to use something >nasty on James, probably not unusual - Eliminated. > This process of elimination puts Snapes Worst Memory clearly in > Lily'scourt. By elimination having her come to his rescue and > insulting her were the most unusual things in the memory. Carodave replies: I think this is a great analysis of Snape's worst memory...but I disagree that we can eliminate sectumsempra. We saw how strongly Harry was affected by using it for the first time, unsure of exactly how it would hit the victim. Maybe Snape hadn't used anything quite this harsh before and was shocked at its effects. Especially possible if he had just 'invented' the spell, and was planning to use it but hadn't yet. Or, if he had just come up to that page in the book, where someone else had jotted down the spell, a la Harry's experience. Carodave, who just isn't sold on any kind of Snape - Lily connection From martyb1130 at aol.com Wed Aug 31 03:14:22 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:14:22 EDT Subject: R.A.B possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139168 Hello All, I was rereading the OOTP and on page 114 in the American version it states "Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch Junior," said Sirius in the same brusque voice... Rodolphus's brother, Rabastan, was with them too. Do you possibly think that this Rabastan character is RAB? It is possible that this is what Lord Voldy called him, due to the fact that his name is rather long... Perhaps the first three letters do stand for the RAB that was left with the horcrux... Brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From merylanna at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 04:17:29 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R.A.B.'s identity confirmed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050831041729.87950.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139169 carodave wrote: - maybe in the end Regulus did something to save / help Sirius as part of his redemption? Maybe Sirius had something to do with his brother's decision to leave the DEs?<< Merylanna: I'm going further and wondering if Regulus ever sincerely joined the death eaters. Perhaps in his own way he loathed them as much as Sirius did, only went about it differently - to learn about and undermine them from within. Then he staged (or embraced, if he did die taking that horcrux) his death. Sirius may be wrong about Snape, he may be mistaken about Regulus - he may never have re-framed his conclusions about people once he formed them at a very young age. He is very convinced about his family and he, himself, being the only black (good) sheep - his brother may have been undercover and Sirius not suspected. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipes814 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 04:20:03 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:20:03 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and Elizabeth Bennet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139170 You may not wish to read if you haven't read "Pride and Prejudice": Again, apologies if this has been discussed somewhere... I was rereading portions of the HP books today, trying to make up my mind on Snape. Now that I'm not reading in such haste to see what happens next, I realize how much Harry is like Lizzy, main character of JKR's second-favorite Jane Austen novel. From Harry's initial (and justified) dislike of Snape, he has been determined to think the worst of him no matter what, exactly like Lizzy in "Pride and Prejudice". Also, Snape's pride is comparable to Mr. Darcy's. He takes great pride in his skills and as the "Half-Blood Prince". IMO, although his dislike of James may have begun with jealousy, his hatred stemmed from his pride. He hated James because of attacks like we see in his worst memory, particularly when his own spells are used against him. How it must have stung that pride when he realized he owed James his life. Are these parallels intentional? If so, does this mean Harry is wrong about Snape even now? Of course these two won't be falling in love, like their counterparts, but will they have to work together? I know these points are already being argued, but after noticing the things I've just written, I'm leaning further away from the ESE! Snape camp. Hmm...unless JKR expected these connections to be made and used them to trick us. Aargh! Jamie(Oh, so confused) p.s. I haven't read Emma(which most know is JKR's favorite Austen novel), are there eny connections there? From ellecain at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 31 04:46:20 2005 From: ellecain at yahoo.com.au (ellecain) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:46:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139171 > Merry: > *(snip)* When I > consider the myriad romantic Snape fanon out there, I > sometimes think about some noble woman patiently > engaging Snape and convincing him she loves him, only > to have him say "No thanks." And mean it. Not > because he feels unworthy, or can't trust. But > because whoever it is doesn't meet his standards Elyse: It has crossed my mind actually, and that only makes me find him more attractive not less. You see, he is not a pathetic loser who is desperate for any womans affections. He will not bind himself to a woman just because *she* loves him, he will do it if he considers her worthy of *his* love. I suspect he is a man who chooses his friends (if he has any) very carefully. If he does believe as Sirius did that "A man hath no greater duty than to lay down his life for his friends" , then he would make sure those friends were worth it. And if he applies this sort of discrimination for his friends, how is it possible for him to compromise in the choice of a life partner? He is without question an amazingly powerful wizard. I believe that intellect and emotions rule him equally. He is passionate about what he loves but he's also (as I think was a part of the Diana theory) too much of a thinker. I doubt you would find many wizard clever as him in a long days march and even fewer witches. He would want a partner who is strong, capable and who does not shirk from brutal truth or duty.He wasnt going to waste himself on a wishy washy woman with a silly Saviour!complex. I know this post sounds ridiculously far out. I might even get laughed off the board for being a Snape lover... but the fact is that I think there is a lot to his character. For instance, if he can remember the injuries the Marauders caused him so long ago and hold on to the anger for a revenge opportunity, is it not conceivable that he would remember a kindness in the same way and pay it back in equal measure? (LOLLIPOPS theorists... heres your ammunition) Elyse From merylanna at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 05:55:23 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050831055523.90619.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139172 zgirnius wrote: Harry believes Bella to have been beautiful. OotP, start of Chapter 25: "Like Sirius, she retained vestiges of great good looks, but something-perhaps Azkaban-had taken most of her beauty". So I think it is safe to assume that Cissy is in fact also good looking.<<< Merylanna: Thanks. I was thinking of a description of Bella's eyes and jaw (maybe hooded eyes) that had me picturing somebody a little on the gargoylish side. But obviously that's just the picture the words JKR chose to describe her in that one spot put in my mind, and it's wrong. After seeing Jason Isaacs in CoS, and reading the description of Narcissa in Spinner's End (like a drowned person) - I visualize the Malfoys as as matched set -including Draco. Even though Lucius and Narcissa are married, some kind of incestuous feel on top of it, because it seems as if they do resemble each other (based on Lucius's supreme platinum blondeness in the film). Kind of an Angels and Insects vibe, without as much energy. More ennui there than even in Snape, for all the histrionics in Chapter 2. From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 31 06:21:49 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:21:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43154C7D.7020901@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 139173 mimbeltonia wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dkeeberlibryn" > wrote: > > As a librarian, I have read all the books in the HP series, and > > while I enjoyed this one, I came away with a nagging feeling that > at > > the end, Harry just wasn't ready to battle V in the next book. snip > > I just don't feel that he is prepared to do battle with the most > > powerful evil wizard in history as he stands. > HUGE SNIP > Mimbeltonia: > > I have been thinking along the same lines as you, but I seem to end > up with the conclusion that this is because what makes Harry able > to "vanquish the dark lord" will not be the skills that Dumbledore > had and Harry doesn't, but must be something Harry has and even > Dumbledore didn't. KJ writes: I think that these are key points. Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, make him go away forever. Nothing says anything about his abilities. We know that Harry's only real ability is that Voldemort is unable to possess him, which is what would be necessary for Voldemort to survive if Harry does have a piece of his soul, and Voldemort's body is destroyed. If all of the soul pieces are destroyed except for Harry's and Voldemort's, it will come down to who survives the confrontation. I think that it is also interesting that Dumbledore died with a peaceful look on his face. To me, this indicates that he has all of his ducks in order, where he wants them to be. He has implicit trust in Snape and in Harry. He knows that their paths have been set and both will carry out what they have been set to do. Let's look at what might happen if Voldemort wins the confrontation. This would certainly be the anticipated outcome from what we saw of his battle with Dumbledore at the MoM. Harry's soul piece is destroyed and Snape is in place to perform an AK thus removing the final problem. If Harry gets in a lucky shot and takes down Voldemort, Snape is in place to button-hole Harry, and again the problem is solved. If Snape kills Voldemort in Harry's presence, it gets more interesting because of Harry's intense hatred for Snape. This hatred might allow Voldemort to get a better hold on Harry, which Harry would be able to sense. Harry might also ask Snape to perform the coup de grace and Harry would still get the last laugh on Voldemort. This would put the choice back in Harry's hands and allow him to make the same sacrifice as his mother. Snape would also have a choice to make at that moment. If, as I suspect, the Dark Mark will kill the DEs on Voldemort's true death (can you see him allowing them to survive if he does not?) Snape must in turn make the choice to die rather than allow Voldemort to survive, especially looking like Harry. If Snape had a hand in Voldemot's bodily death, and he possessed Harry, Snape would be running for the rest of his short life. Harder yet would be casting an AK at the wearer of Lilly's eyes, if Snape was truly remorseful for being the unwitting cause of her death. What would be truly frightening, if Snape was killed or unable to do as I think Dumbledore has ordered, would be Voldemort walking around with Harry's face. He would have lots of money, respect, never be suspected, he would have the keys to the wizarding world. Harry might still be trapped in there, unable to do a thing about it. Gives me the creeps. KJ From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 06:27:16 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:27:16 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705082915361c37d2a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139174 lady.indigo: I have been trying (for hours) to respond to this thread coolly, with point by point rebuttals, but what it boils down to is that your sympathy, for whatever reason, is with Snape. I can argue and illustrate and quote canon until I'm blue in the face and it isn't going to make any difference; you're going to believe what you believe, regardless of how --adjectives deleted-- unrealistic, let us say, I might find certain arguments in support of the notion that Harry is or ever has in any sense been in arrears with regards to Snape. The one thing I do agree with you about, and the reason I am, after all, replying, is the idea that Harry will have to let go of his hatred, and that the reasons are indeed somewhat like the reasons Luke Skywalker had to resist the quite human impulse to let fury and revenge drive him. (Although I do not see Harry's position on that slippery slope as nearly as imperiled as you apparently do.) Harry needs to do it for Harry's own good, and for the good of the mission; it has nothing to do with Snape per se, or with any abstract moral imperative (because I think Harry is about where I'd expect him to be on the good/evil spectrum, or maybe even better, all things considered, and I trust that he will figure it out). I also think that Snape is a lost cause; for him to get a fraction of what he seems to need, everyone would have to stop worrying about stopping Voldemort and rally 'round poor, wounded Severus for as long as it took. (Of course, that's considering that poor, wounded, "stunted" Snape is even an approximation of the man behind the multiple roles and layers.) The question of Harry bridging the gap seems moot now, considering events in HBP. I think Snape's a deader. I expect him to get a posthumous Order of Merlin x Class for *something*, and I confess I feel very sorry for him and where his choices have led him (regardless of which, if any, side he's loyal to). But whether the hostility came out of the role or the man, IMO Snape has, from the beginning, created the relationship he has with Harry. If Snape is truly so damaged and emotionally incapable, then that's very sad--but it doesn't increase Harry's responsibility one whit, IMO. IF they both lived long enough for Harry to grow fully into adulthood and IF some space of time went by that Snape didn't have Harry under his thumb and Harry wasn't suffering from adolescence, post-traumatic stress, recent bereavement, Voldemort dropping in on his psyche unexpectedly, calumny from the government and popular press and his peers, stress due to being under a madman's eager death warrant or some combination thereof, I might see it. But that ain't gonna happen. IMO. Sandy aka msbeadsley From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 06:37:36 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:37:36 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139175 > Betsy Hp: > As I said before, Narcissa was not acting like a woman manipulating > a smitten man in this scene, IMO. She was too sloppy in her > despair. I think she was as desperate as her actions suggested (she > loves her son) though I also think she probably has a touch of drama > in her (shared by Draco) that influenced her a bit. (IOW, a > naturally more retiring woman would have shown her desperation in a > different way.) Neri: So you are basically saying that there are no romantic overtones in this chapter, only some innocent drama, and all the rest is in my dirty mind . You're implying that JKR can write lines like "Her face close to his, her tears falling onto his chest, she gasped" or "seized his hand in both of hers, and pressed her lips to it" or "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand" without being aware of what interpretation such lines suggest. If this is indeed the case, then I think our Jo is in need of an urgent writing course from virtually any fan-fiction writer out there. In the books *I'm* reading (which usually aren't of the over-romantic type), if you have a sentence of the form "His eyes were fixed upon her eyes" then the Romance Quotient will show at least 6 out of 10. If the inserted eye color of the man is black and the inserted eye color of the woman is blue then the RQ jumps to 7. If her blue eyes are also tear-filled and she clutches his hand in the bargain it goes up to 8, especially if she also has long blond hair that was described no less than three times during the chapter. If the chapter then ends with the image of him making a great sacrifice for her on his knees, then there's no need to even check the RQ anymore, and the question is only if they end up in bed together or do they get rid of her husband first. Now tell me with straight face that my RQ needs adjusting. > > >>Neri: > > Nor does he manages to maintain absolute control during the Vows - > > before he makes that crucial last Vow his hand twitches inside > > Narcissa'a hand, and he hesitates before answering. > > > > Betsy Hp: > Well, yes. This is the moment where everything goes pear-shaped so > I'd expect Snape to react. Neri: Nobody has yet managed to explain to me why everything must go pear-shaped at this moment. Bella's face here are described as no less than "astounded" (ratcheting up from the previous "astonished" and "eyes wide"). This clearly indicates that Snape's last Vow was a huge commitment, much more than would be expected from him or from anyone. I see no reason why Snape can't stop at this moment and say to Narcissa: "I'm sorry. I've already given you two vows, but you ask too much. I promise I'll do what I can to complete the task if Draco fails, but you can't demand that I'll stake my life on it. There might be factors here that are out of my control". I think this would be perfectly logical, and already up and above what Bellatrix expected of him. Snape's hand twitching shows that he's fully aware how critical this Vow is. Such a sacrifice and such a commitment for Narcissa make no sense. Unless Snape objective is to win Narcissa'a love, in which case the bigger the sacrifice and the bigger the commitment ? the bigger are Snape's chances. > Betsy Hp: > Yeah, but an apartment in the right neigborhood could be swung by a > single guy. I've met social climbers and Snape ain't it. Not with > his little house in that working class neighborhood. Neri: I'm not familiar with any canon about a "right neighborhood" where single Wizarding pureblood aristocracy live. If such a neighborhood exists, I'm not familiar with any canon that Snape doesn't have an apartment there, in addition to the muggle house used for hiding supposedly-dead servants of the Dark Lord. Snape admittedly has never managed to turn himself into a popular person, but the fact he still has difficulties with it doesn't mean he isn't obsessive about respect and status. And he *is* climbing fast in the social circle that soon might be the most important one ? the Dark Lord's first circle of DEs. BTW, regarding this issue of Snape's obsession with status, do you remember what were the first words Snape ever said in the HP series? They were "Ah, yes. Harry Potter. Our new -- *celebrity*" (italics in the original). I can't think of anybody at Hogwarts who is more obsessed with Harry's publicity than Snape. Not even Slughorn. Not even Romilda Vane. > > Betsy Hp: > That's where that "remorse" comment came in. Dumbledore believed > that Snape was truely remorseful and that's why he trusts him today. Neri: That still hardly explains why Dumbledore believes this "remorse" is so strong that it makes Snape risk everything for the Order today, fifteen years after the fact. In this sense a Life Debt would be a much more plausible explanation than LOLLIPOPS, because a Life Debt presumably doesn't lose its power over the years. It is binding today as it was fifteen years ago. (BTW, regarding Snape's acting ability, "remorse" is precisely the word he uses in order to describe to Bella how he had deceived Dumbledore. "I spun him a tale of deepest remorse" he says without any sign of emotion. So does this mean he can't be feeling deeply about this remorse? And if he can, might he also be able to hide passion behind blank face?) And I also think that all this Dumbledore-can't-tell-Harry-about-Snape-and-Lily-because-Harry-will-never-understand was overplayed by the LOLLIPOPS crew. In HBP Harry agrees to accept Kreacher, who betrayed Sirius to death (and is even more unpleasant than Snape), into his service. He even employs him as a spy when the need arises, and by his own volition too. I really think Harry would have been able to accept, if not like, that Snape loved his mother. I think it wouldn't be such a big deal to tell Harry in the beginning of the year, especially with the danger to Dumbledore's life. And if not, then at the very minimum Dumbledore could have told several people in the Order, so in any case the connection with double-agent Snape wouldn't be lost. Unless part of Snape's deal with Dumbledore was that the secret would never be revealed, of course, but that would work for any theory. We don't need LOLLIPOPS for that. > Betsy Hp: > Snape does seem to have a great dislike of Sirius. Neri: Oh, sure he does. Snape points a wand between Sirius' eyes and whispers "Give me a reason. Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will". He says it twice so there won't be any doubt. Now what could he mean by "give me a reason"? The man betrayed the woman Snape love to her death, didn't he? What "reason" is Snape looking for? This is Snape during his greatest rage explosion in the series and he can't control his emotions, right? We know why Snape hates Sirius. When he suspects Dumbledore believes in Sirius' innocence, he breathes to him: "You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill *me*" (again, italics in the original). With Snape it's always *me*, never *her*. > Betsy Hp: >And the fact > that Lily (great at potions Lily) is *never* spoken of by Snape is > telling too, IMO. The thing about Lily and Snape is it's more about > what's missing than what's there. (Who is the "horrible boy" for > example.) Which is why it's really hard to pull up canon. (heh. > I'm not convincing you at all, am I.) Neri: Not really. Had Snape mentioned Lily you would have used it as to support LOLLIPOPS, wouldn't you? But since he doesn't you use the absence to support LOLLIPOPS. Let's accept the sad fact: LOLLIPOPS might seem like very attractive plotting to us, but it has about zero canon to support it, and a lot against it. > Betsy Hp: > Maybe the vengence of treating Wormtail like utter crap and using > him to defeat the man Wormtail serves is sufficient. Wormtail is > certainly miserable, thanks to Snape, and Snape certainly seems to > relish his misery. Neri: Oh yeah. Treat him like crap and make him miserable. Doesn't that about sum up Snape's treatment of his students? You'd think he'd save something a bit more potent for the man responsible to the death of his beloved Lily. > Betsy Hp: > So Sirius is chopped liver? James is a waste of space? Lily is > yesterday's compost? The series is *filled* with heroes, many of > them noble, and none of them stealing the spotlight from Harry. It > is actually possible for Snape to be on the Order's side without > Harry slipping off the stage. Neri: Sirius, James and Lily (and now also Dumbledore) were all safely disposed of before the climax. JKR practically said in the three-pronged interview that she got rid of them in order to leave Harry alone. I personally think it's possible for Snape to help Harry in Book 7 even if he indeed killed Dumbledore in HBP. Both ACID POPS and Life Debt enable realistic scenarios for that. But it seems to me that the shattering combination of LOLLIPOPS and NobleHero!Snape right there at the climax would be too much. And if it was a secret plan that justified Dumbledore's death it would have to feature in the climax or it wouldn't be worth it. In this sense too, ACID POPS could be much more useful than LOLLIPOPS. It will enable Snape to be a villain who is also complex, tragic, and he can even save Harry's life right there at the climax without making Harry any less a Hero. Neri From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 06:26:40 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:26:40 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139176 Derek wrote: > I'm not going to pretend that I have done anywhere near the level > of assessment of Snape's character that many on the list have done. > Heck, I'm not even sure whether Snape is Evil!Snape or Good!Snape > or Selfish!Snape or some combination thereof. > > But one thing I have a very strong hunch about is that the key to > understanding Snape is contained in the "Snape's Worst Memory" > chapter of OP. Namely, why was that his worst memory? What > element of that incident is the one so horrific to Snape that he > considers it his worst memory? > > I can't shake the feeling that when we know for certain the answer > to that question, we'll be able to determine which Snape is the > Real!Snape. And since I shouldn't really make that assertion > without throwing in a theory, here's my theory... ;-) > > I think it's his worst memory because he called Lily a Mudblood. Mimbeltonia: You know, Derek, I think you are right! An important part of the disgrace in this memory is of course the fact that James is using Snape's own spell against him to humiliate him in front of the others - including Lily. We hear less about Lily than we do about James, but she seems to have been one of those people who have an unusual ability for caring and making friends - like her son. IMO, indications are that though Lily and Severus may not have had any one-way or two-way romance going on between them, she must have treated him nicely and been friendly with him. In his frustration and humiliation after the Levicorpus, Severus resents being defended by Lily, and to his deep regret calls her a "mudblood", turning her against him. Being who he is, he is unable to take steps to make up, and is left with his Slytherin "friends" only. On another note: I don't think JKR wants us to like Snape. Not right now, at least. I think she really wants him to be unpleasant - allthough with some redeeming or excusing qualities and experiences. - BUT: I think she wants a part of the morale of the books to be that even a person you deeply (and maybe even rightly) detest may be important to you, may have qualities you do not see, and may do the right thing for you in the crucial situation. -Mimbeltonia From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 08:13:44 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:13:44 -0000 Subject: Why Harry will prevail... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139177 I do not know if Harry will kill Voldemort... If I was a weasley twin I'd bet my money on vanquishing... I've noticed a great deal of posts concerning why Harry is not ready- -too immature--not trained-up 'enough'--has powers inferior to Voldemort.... HBP told us that Harry will prevail because he has no desire to learn every single bit of magic....(hence his grades, hence his owls, hence he's not taking lessons from hermione!)... Harry has no hidden or unobvious agenda... Voldemort---has numerous hidden agendas...most are obvious because he's looking to learn some magic that no one can defend against... DD knows Voldie more than most.....DD knows Voldie has no intrest in "the magic of love"... Voldie has his DE's do his dirty work....including having them do murder.... okay for voldie to split his soul...he makes a horcrux....his followers???? typically, they die..... I'm hedging my bet that Bella created a horcrux before her stint in Az....just one...and her hubby sent DE's to find out who destroyed her horcrux...(the Longbottoms) Hence, RAB.....he knew about Voldie's horcruxes because someone close to him created one.....(probably because bella recruited RAB)... What if RAB joined the DE's to find a horcrux???!?!?! My guess is that when Voldie thought he was too close....or whom/whatever drank the potion in the cave....he trakced them down and killed them...with regulus professing(under torture), that he found the horcrux and destroyed it...(but it was not destroyed) Hence Voldie killed Regulus personally(he wants as few DE's as possible to learn about horcruxes)... I'm also guessing that he gave Bella a horcrux to ensure she kept her mouth shut!!! Harry will prevail because he trusts his friends....he does have family--as much as petunia loathes the world he came from, she still allowed harry houseroom....and whether or not he will die...harry will never make a horcrux! Voldie--has no friends...no family(he killed them)...no hope(because he doesn't believe in it)....and thinks enough that so many folks want to murder him that he makes six horcruxes... Doddie (who wonders if voldie made the mistake of making seven horcruxes--- hence his soul is split into eighths...) must go back and read sluggy's memory.. From two_flower2 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 09:30:33 2005 From: two_flower2 at yahoo.com (two_flower2) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:30:33 -0000 Subject: Snape bullying Harry; apology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139178 So I read many (most of the) posts on Snape hating Harry, and Harry hating him back and the apology issue, and I can't help thinking that 1) Snape does appear to be a very good actor and master human manipulator, and is one of the best Occlumences and Legilimenses known to man. A double agent for 16 years (or 14, whatever). I find it very hard to believe that such a man would start a childish vendetta with a 11 yo just because he can't keep his animosity in check, whatever are his actual feelings for the kid. Snape consistently bullying and baiting Harry from their very first meeting looks very manipulative to me. I suspect that he either wants to alienate Harry on purpose or just gives him certain tests to see what are Harry's responses to his baiting. For whatever reason. Also, I think that what with Snape being a Legilimens and Harry wearing his heart on his sleeve, Harry's feelings must be an open book for Snape. Snape just *must* know that Harry is not a spoiled, pampered brat, in spite of the rule-breaking and such. 2)It is very difficult even for an adult to apologize to somebody who is consistently and unfairly nasty to them, never mind how much that person deserves an apology and gratitude. Ever watched neighbor feuds :) ? Harry is just a kid, what you expect. If an adult pointed out to him that he has to apologize, than he might. Otherwise it would be unrealistic to expect (that is pre-HBP ending situation I am talking about, of course). Cheers, Two2 From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 31 09:29:55 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:29:55 -0400 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? Message-ID: <005c01c5ae0e$8db4aad0$abc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 139179 vmonte >>"Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times he wondered whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible (I'm reminded of JKR's comment that Snape is a "deeply horrible" person) to Harry. Could Snape possibly know they'd found out about the Sorceror's Stone? Harry didn't see how he could--yet he sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds" (p221, SS). CathyD: But don't you find (I do) that if you're in a bad situation with someone, you run into them everywhere? This is just before the Quidditch match that Snape has arranged to officiate so he can protect Harry from any further jinxes. Also, by this time in the book Snape is well aware, I think, of what Quirrell's true intentions are and what's riding around under his turban. Add to this the fact that Harry hardly ever makes a proper job of doing homework (for any class), seldom pays attention in class, already mistrusts Snape from the first moment of the beginning feast when the meeting Snape's eyes coincided with Harry's scar hurting, and on top of all that believes Snape is trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone. It's no wonder Potions classes were turning into a weekly torture. >>"Harry wondered whether he could slip his Invisibility Cloak back on, thereby gaining his seat at the long Gryffindor table (which, inconveniently, was the farthest from the entrance hall) without being noticed. As though he had read Harry's mind, however, Snape said, "No cloak. You can walk in so that everyone sees you, which is what you wanted, I'm sure" (p162, Snape Victorious, HBP). In this case, Snape had seen him taking the cloak off just minutes before. Yes, I do think he saw that. I won't mention that I think Dumbledore has informed Snape that Harry has been told to keep the cloak with him at all times. What I did wonder though, is if Tonks knew he had the cloak with him how she knew he didn't get off the train. He could have gotten off while under the invisibility cloak. Pippin: >>According to Dumbledore, Snape, knowing the prophecy, defected. IMO, that means that Snape has had to act, for seventeen years, as if he *didn't* believe the prophecy. If he acted, in thought, word or deed, as if he did believe it, then Voldemort who doesn't understand things like remorse or moral imperatives, but does understand fear and power, would never believe that Snape had not left him forever. >>Unfortunately, that means Snape has had to treat Harry the way 'Severus Snape, secretly unrepentant Death Eater' would treat a little, er, powerless person of no regard or importance, who was the son of a man he undoubtedly hated, a favorite of Albus Dumbledore's, and who had taken a dislike to Snape from the start, which he expressed by making faces, talking back, refusing to follow instructions, and accusing him behind his back of theft and attempted murder.( If Harry behaved like that with McGonagall, she'd have had him expelled by now. Or quit.) CathyD: I like this, Pippin, I can't tell you how much. Ties a lot of things together, doesn't it? Ohh...I love it! (I quite liked your "The Gleam! The Gleam! as well.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 09:48:28 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:48:28 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139180 Delwynmarch wrote: We keep hearing about the Life Debt, but interestingly enough we are never told how it works. I doubt that's an oversight. < massive snip of Del's theory. Go UPTHREAD to read it> Also-September-19: I think the idea that you cannot be part of killing the person you owe a life debt to is a good working hypothsis - though I don't think there's any support for this in the text. In fact, I can't think of any place the workings of a life debt are explained. But that you can't murder the person who saved your life seems pretty intuitively correct. And I think I'm with you on Snape having a real problem with his life debt to James through (unwittingly) being the cause of his death. This *must* have had consequences. And I've been wondering about what they are for books now! Amiable Dorsai: What if it just comes down to this: As a consequence of Snape's indirect collusion in killing James, he is forced to avenge him? Or to help James' son do so? That is, only by colluding in Voldemort's destruction can Snape be rid of the debt and its (so far, hypothetical) consequences. This may go some way towards explaining Snape's resentment of Harry--he's the living symbol of Snape's bondage. Amiable Dorsai From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Aug 31 11:33:09 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:33:09 -0400 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? Message-ID: <001c01c5ae1f$c3d2f9d0$23c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 139182 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Imagine, being reminded every day, > for six years, of the mistake you > made years before. His response to Harry, > the snarkiness, the nastiness, is the > only way Snape knows how to deal > with what he is feeling Eggplant: >It's entirely possible that you're right and that is the source of Snape's dreadful behavior toward Harry, but I don't understand why you couldn't rephrase your statement above by simply saying Snape is evil. CathyD: Because I already *have* said it, Eggplant, so many times I've lost count. Here, just for you, is my opinion (capsulized) of Snape. a) Snape is a slimy, nasty, oily, greasy, evil, Evil, EVIL git. b) If Snape should choose to do so, I think he could easily outstrip Lord Voldemort on the evil-meter by at least 1000 points (depending on the gauge of the meter, of course). c) IMO, Snape has turned his back on that part of his life, in that he has chosen to serve Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix and work to bring down Voldemort from the inside where he is working, for the Order of the Phoenix, as a spy. That does not mean that he is not now a slimy, nasty, oily, greasy, evil, Evil, EVIL git. d) In order to accomplish the above, he must be able to convince Voldemort that he is still a Death Eater, still working for him, and still spying on Dumbledore and the Order. >>Any halfway decent human being would have gone out of his way to be kind to a boy you had done such a great wrong, but Snape chose to do the opposite. I don't agree, however, I don't think Snape *chose* his behaviour at all but acted in the only way his evil nature allows him to in this situation. And just how would it look in front of the Slytherin kids whose fathers are Death Eaters if Snape was being kind to Harry Potter? What stories they would have taken home to their fathers...or one father in particular, Lucius Malfoy. We know Snape is using Malfoy to get information about Voldemort/DEs. How would it look to Lucius if Draco had drug home tales of Snape giving special attention to the brat that brought down the Dark Lord? Yes, Draco has brought home tales of special attention but not any that was given by Snape (who Lucius, Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, etc., believe to be a Death Eater still). Lucius told Draco: "and I would remind you that it is not -- prudent -- to appear less than fond of Harry Potter, not when most of our kind regard him as the hero who made the Dark Lord disappear." No, not prudent at all to someone like Malfoy who, a supporter of Voldemort during the first war, lied to get out going to Azkaban, and now has to present a respectable face to the world despite his allegiance. That's not true of Snape, the WW world knows he was a DE and that he switched sides before Voldemort fell (even if one believes that to be untrue, that is what is on record at the MoM). Snape can freely go about being as nasty as he pleases and it often works to his advantage in situations like terrorizing and intimidating Quirrell. Dumbledore knows there are all kinds of lessons to be learned and having a nasty-ass for a teacher is one of them. Upthread, Pippin made, what I thought was a very good point about Snape: "Unfortunately, that means Snape has had to treat Harry the way 'Severus Snape, secretly unrepentant Death Eater' would treat a little, er, powerless person of no regard or importance, who was the son of a man he undoubtedly hated, a favorite of Albus Dumbledore's, and who had taken a dislike to Snape from the start, " Snape can't go against his nature if he is to keep his cover. He can't or he will blow his cover with the DEs and neither he nor Dumbledore can afford that. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 11:50:51 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:50:51 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: <005c01c5ae0e$8db4aad0$abc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139183 vmonte >>"Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times he wondered whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible (I'm reminded of JKR's comment that Snape is a "deeply horrible" person) to Harry. Could Snape possibly know they'd found out about the Sorceror's Stone? Harry didn't see how he could--yet he sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds" (p221, SS). >>CathyD: But don't you find (I do) that if you're in a bad situation with someone, you run into them everywhere? This is just before the Quidditch match that Snape has arranged to officiate so he can protect Harry from any further jinxes. Also, by this time in the book Snape is well aware, I think, of what Quirrell's true intentions are and what's riding around under his turban. Add to this the fact that Harry hardly ever makes a proper job of doing homework (for any class), seldom pays attention in class, already mistrusts Snape from the first moment of the beginning feast when the meeting Snape's eyes coincided with Harry's scar hurting, and on top of all that believes Snape is trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone. It's no wonder Potions classes were turning into a weekly torture. vmonte: Cathy, you are making excuses for Snape :). Do you really believe that my quote has anything to do with Harry being irrational?--again? Harry does not know during SS/PS that Legimency even exists, that Snape can reads minds; yet he feels the intrusion--he has a feeling about it. We know that Snape has used Legimency on people before-- Fake!Moody on the stairs, Dumbledore. I am certain that Harry is right on the mark with this. And I think that Harry has always been right about Snape. Harry lived with the female version of Snape. Petunia's hatred of Lily is very much like Snape's hatred of James. Vivian From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 31 12:21:28 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:21:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's story , NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139187 > > Pippin: > But this is Harry's story, not Snape's. > It's Harry who has to become a mature and capable adult, which > means learning to accept that there are adults who may not be as > mature and capable as he is, but are not deserving of the word > 'evil', which as Hermione says is awfully strong. Is that really > the word we want to use for nasty school teachers? > I read Snape as one of those unfortunates so scarred by experiences in early life that he keeps people at arm's length not only because he dislikes them (though he certainly does) but because he is scared to death of them. Everything about him is of a piece with this--his nasty personality, his unwholesome and unsavory appearance, his aloofness (as far as we can see) with his colleagues, his hatred and resentment (as well, I suspect, as his envy) for more successful boys like James and Serius. Dumbledore is the only person, perhaps aside from Eileen, that has managed to break through this shell; hence his jealousy of Dumbledore's interactions with others, particularly the Marauders, and his protective love of Harry. He keeps women in particular at a distance; if he does have a crush on Lily, his churlish rejection of her attempt to rescue him from the Marauders is typical. This sort of personality, of course, is ideal for a secret agent. The fellow doesn't have to be likable (in fact, it probably helps if he isn't), just good at what he does. In re Snape and his relations with women: I don't actually know how Snape feels about women, but judging from some of the fanfic out there, a lot of women feel quite strongly about him. Of course a lot of this may be due to the Rickman interpretation of Snape; the canonical Snape is much less attractive. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 12:31:38 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:31:38 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? Response to Valky In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139189 Valky wrote: This process of elimination puts Snapes Worst Memory clearly in Lily's court. By elimination having her come to his rescue and insulting her were the most unusual things in the memory. OKay I am back on that darn ship again... Valky leaps off the plank and swims safely to shore. vmonte: There are a few things that stick out to me in Snape's memory but I do think that Snape's interaction with Lily is important. JKR makes a point of showing all the hormones that were flying during HBP. Snape's reaction to Lily could very well be in the same dynamic of Ron and Hermione's nastiness to each other--due to frustration. I don't think that Lily and Snape ever dated, but I do think that Snape secretly wanted her. Snape really reminds me of Merope in a way. Snape's hygiene issues, like Merope's, are a sign of neglect and/or abuse. And Merope, like Snape's mother, were both abused women. Children that come from this kind of environment often feel helpless. They want to save their mother, but they cannot. To say the least, Snape may not have a healthy perspective on relationships because of this. I could see him thinking that Lily was too good for James. It must mean something that Snape never talks about the woman! She is his weakness--the thing he cannot emotionally control in himself. This is the weakness that Voldemort used to his advantage. Notice how Tom Riddle first listened to all of Ginny's secrets, pretending to have a sympathetic ear. Voldemort is a manipulator. I cannot completely see Snape as a victim though. I do not think that his attraction to Lily was a healthy thing. It was probably darker, delusional and obsessive. Slughorn talks about obsessive love in the chapter HBP. I think this is important somehow. My feeling is that Dumbledore knew that Snape had strong feelings for Lily, and that is why Dumbledore believed Snape. JKR, like Lily, is a very popular woman. Celebrities are often the victims of obsessive "fans" themselves. And we've seen what some of these fans are capable of doing. Snape may have seen himself as Lily's "Prince" - that is until James came into the picture. Vivian Who is still struggling with the idea that this is what is motivating Snape. I smiled when Harry became shocked (during HBP) at the depths that girls go to torture men. I'm reminded that once again that men really do seem to be ruled by their............heart. :) From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 31 13:07:00 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:07:00 +0100 Subject: Dumbledore's death Message-ID: <002501c5ae2c$e11019d0$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 139190 I have twice read HBP, and must confess that I was shocked by the ending - it just left you feeling floored. On my second read, however, I felt there was something very strange about DD's death. When Snape's curse hit him, after being blasted off his feet, we read that he stayed under the dark mark for a second, then slowly fell over the tower and out of sight. I have read some of the editorials on Mugglenet and there is doubt as to whether DD is really dead and a few people I have spoken to feel that there's a twist to it and that we'll see him returning in the next book. Let's not forget that DD is a most skilled wizard, was once transfiguration teacher and can perform magic without his wand. I have to say I agree with them, as the only people who knew about the horcruxes and Harry's private lessons were DD, Harry, Ron and Hermione. Dumbledore has not authorized Harry to tel anybody else, hence the reason Harry refused to tell McGonigalwhere they had been that night. However, if DD is really dead, and Harry returns to Hogwarts, DD's portrait will surely need to brief McGonigal, who, as we know, is now Headmistress. Derek From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 31 13:17:58 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:17:58 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's Prediction/How like your father In-Reply-To: <072701c5a8c3$4d6dfcb0$6600a8c0@phil> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139191 Potioncat here: I'm weaving threads here...hopefully into a cloth of some merit. Here are snipped portions of two un-related threads. First Irene discussing Snape's possible view of Harry; then Phil discussing Trelawney's predictions. Both influenced by LV. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138516 In Post 138516 Irene wrote: >snip > In his talks with Bella and Narcissa, Snape mentions > something like "at first I've suspected that Harry can > become the next Voldemort". What if it's true, does > this explanation fit the facts? > snip > Did Snape's Dark Mark hurt at the same moment when > Harry's scar did, at the beginning of Year 1? That > would make him very suspicious from the beginning. > snipping comparison of Harry to Tom (excellent, btw) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/138640 In Post 138640 Phil wrote: > Trelawney's Prediction. > After reading the day of Voldemort's birth in HBP, Chapter thirteen: > New Year's Eve and she had the baby within the hour. And > she was dead in another hour." > > > Makes this prediction from GoF, Chapter thirteen, more > interesting: > "Saturn, dear, the planet Saturn!" said Professor Trelawney, sounding > definitely irritated that Harry wasn't riveted by this news. "I was saying > that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment > of your birth. ... Your dark hair ... your mean stature ... tragic losses so > young in life... I think I am right in saying, my dear, that you were born > in midwinter?" > > Phil, who thinks she is more correct in her predictions than wrong. Potioncat again: Irene suggests that Snape had reason to think that Harry was a Dark wizard, and Phil suggests that the bit of Voldy in Harry may have thrown off Trelawney. Two different posts that remind me of a third. One I can't find. It was written pre HBP by Kneasy and suggested that Snape has long been aware of the bit of Voldy that resides in Harry. A bit that made him very uncomfortable. Snape may have arranged the Serpensortia spell (not sure if it was called that in the book) in order to test Harry's Parseltongue ability; or at any rate, his speech confirmed Snape's suspicions. Snape would be justified in his concern that Potter would have some evil potential. It was also suggested long ago, that if there was an actual bit of Voldy in Harry, it might have influenced Trelawney's predictions. It was even suggested at that time that perhaps Tom Riddle was born mid- winter. Trelawney could be making predictions about LV rather than Harry. So that the part of Harry that is LV might have a short life and will die in book 7; the part of Harry who is Harry will become the MoM and have 12 kids. Thanks, Phil, I think this part had been forgotten and I didn't catch TR's birth date in my read of HBP. Doesn't this also make Snape and Riddle members of the same Zodiac sign? Does that add anything to our mix? I was also wondering if the Tarot reading Trelawaney was doing, with Harry nearby, was influenced by the bit of Voldy in Harry? I know nothing about how the cards are read, but I imagine LV has little affection for the person whose prediction caused things to go so badly. And back to Snape's comment to Bella in "Spinner's End": " rumors that he himself was a great Dark wizard, which was how he had survived the Dark Lord's attack. Indeed, many of the Dark Lord's old followers thought Potter might be a standard around which we could all rally once more " Could this have been the conversation that Draco and Theo were supposed to have when Mr. Nott visited Mr. Malfoy (edited scene mentioned at JKR's web site.) Back in PS/SS Snape would know the truth, but he would also know that his students believed this story. He would also know that Harry was a celebrity. I think his first class demonstrated to the Slytherins that Harry was not a powerful Dark wizard. (At least not yet.) And it makes a good point now with the Black sisters. After all, Lucius had probably suggested Draco cozy up to Harry for this very reason. Not a bad idea, to be friends with the future Dark Lord. Narcissa would know it, even if Bella didn't. So his comments about it in Spinner's End would ring true. Potioncat, hoping she made these threads come together in something that made sense and not just a cat's cradle. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 13:27:49 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:27:49 -0000 Subject: The Key to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com "M.Clifford" (Message 139154) >I can't yet say I am abolutely sure that your guess about Lily is >correct, Derek. But what I cn say is that your post got e thinking >exactly how to narrow down the item list of things in the >Pensieve - SWM. Which would be something like: >James and Sirius teasing him. >His underwear getting shown off. >Lily coming to his rescue. >Using the Sectumsempra curse. >Insulting Lily. > Couldn't we use canon to eliminate them down to one. "K": How about adding another one. ____________________________________________ "You ? wait," he panted, staring up at James with an expression of purest loathing. "You ? wait " "Wait for what?" said Sirius coolly. "What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?" oop/ch 28/pg 646/us "I told you to empty yourself of emotion!" "Yeah? Well, I'm finding that hard at the moment," Harry snarled. "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily ? weak people, in other words ? they stand no chance against his powers! oop/ch 24/pg 536/us _____________________________________________ The key words are, IMO: ~ What're you going to do? ~ "You ? wait" Become a Death Eater. Could make for a very bad memory. Possibly the breaking point of a person tired of being bullied (James & Sirius). Two people who are now, by the way, dead. ~ Easy prey for the Dark Lord ~ Cannot control their emotions ~ Sad memories ~ Weak Have always thought Snape was talking about himself. ~~~ So, Snape decides after this incident to become a DE, which in turn led to his running to Voldemort with the Prophecy, which eventually led to the death of Lily, who was a true friend. The chapter title is *Snape's Worst Memory*. Not *The Memory We Didn't See* or *A Memory from Harry's POV*. This is Snape's worst memory. From elbarad at aol.com Wed Aug 31 14:24:28 2005 From: elbarad at aol.com (Rebecca Hoskins) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:24:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: <002501c5ae2c$e11019d0$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139193 "Derek Thorburn" > I have twice read HBP, and must confess that I was shocked by the ending - > it just left you feeling floored. You and me both! Derek > On my second read, however, I felt there was something very strange about > DD's death. When Snape's curse hit him, after being blasted off his feet, > we read that he stayed under the dark mark for a second, then slowly fell > over the tower and out of sight. I wondered that too, and I've seen it discussed at length here. One theory is that Snape, whilst saying the words 'Avada Kedavra' did not actually put the menace behind the spell for it to actually make it a killing curse (think of bellatrix and harry at the end of OotP). And that maybe Snape used an alternative non-verbal spell to make Dumbledore fly up in the air. If this was a way out of killing D it certainly did't work as D fell to his death at the foot of the tower. I have to admit that this doesn't make sense, except for the fact that it explains away the fact that the hold of D's petrifics totalis spell doesn't break as D is AK'd, it doesn't break until D hits the floor several seconds later. It is certainly odd, which ever way you look at it. I mean, Cedric and Frank Bryce just fall to the floor. The fox and the spider just die. They don't fly up in the air. I can't help thinking that JKR doesn't tend to make mistakes, so there's likely to be a reason for the difference in this case. Derek > DD is really dead, and Harry returns to Hogwarts, DD's portrait will surely > need to brief McGonigal, who, as we know, is now Headmistress. Yeah, I wonder how much the portrait can tell her. The headmasters and mistresses of Hogwarts are bound to help the current Head of hogwarts - does that mean Dumbldore will have to tell McGonegal all he knows? (presuming that he wakes up at some point). Rebecca From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 14:29:00 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:29:00 -0000 Subject: Moral, Immoral, and Amoral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139194 vmonte: "You are saying that Voldemort really isn't concerned about right or wrong but lives on base instincts--someone without a conscience?" Del: Absolutely! That's a simple but pretty accurate description of psychopaths/sociopaths: they literally have no conscience. Morally speaking, they never went beyond the infant/toddler stage, because they are unable to feel empathy and compassion. They are stuck at the "me" stage, because they can't put themselves in the shoes of anyone else. They have adult brains and bodies, but morally they are little more than babies. And just like babies, they are totally devoted to satisfying their own needs and desires, without caring one bit about what it does to other people. Of course, that's a general description, and a simplified one too. It's the way the real experts describe it in online explanations for non-experts like me :-) But this description perfectly explains LV's actions, IMO. It fits him to a T. And JKR did call LV a psychopath in one of her interviews. But as I said, I am NOT an expert in that field, so I could very well be pretty wrong about it :-) vmonte again: You know Del your way makes more sense. It kind of goes along with JKR's thoughts that Snape is more culpable because he was loved. If Snape is immoral then he is choosing to do wrong, where as LV doesn't have a conscience. If Harry is a horcrux and LV takes back his soul piece he may get the conscience he lacks. Dumbledore tells Harry that putting a horcrux into a living creature is not a good idea because the horcrux can be influenced by it's host. If Lily has been protecting Harry all these years then perhaps she has transformed LV's soul piece. Maybe this is the way to destroy LV. We already know that LV is incapable of going into Harry's head do to the love that is there. Can you imagine what a "love horcrux" will do to him? He still needs to pay for his crimes though. Maybe he will take another bad person down with him. Vivian From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 14:50:01 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:50:01 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: <20050830192600.53475.qmail@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139195 Merry Kinsella wrote: > Harry's job was to learn how to protect > his private, secret thoughts from LV > through occlumency. Yes, and Occlumency is a brutal business and Snape was not fighting fair. Snape was an adult and a skilled professor of magic and yet he took the precaution of removing his most embarrassing memories before they started to probe each others minds. Snape did not give Harry, who was just a school boy, the same opportunity and that seems cowardly to me. It's like the heavyweight boxing champion of the world putting on protective padding before fighting a little boy while the kid gets nothing. And now Snape is whining that Harry is being real mean to him and is not fighting fair. Boo Hoo. > What do we think Snape was yelling > about? "You are giving me weapons! And fortunately Snape gave Harry a weapon and Harry used it as Snape specifically allowed him to do, "You may use your wand to attempt to disarm me, or defend yourself in any other way you can think of". Snape gave Harry permission to use ANY method to find weak points in his opponent, including presumably using his wits. If Harry thought out of the box and found something Snape did not expect then good for Harry because Occlumency is not a tea party and Snape of all people should know that. Snape made a very stupid blunder in letting Harry see him removing memories and place them in the pensive, and Harry took advantage of that mistake. If Harry refuses to exploit mistakes Voldemort makes he has no chance of ever defeating him. I can remember debating this "Harry should apologies to Snape" business when book 5 first came out, but it seems rather incredible that in the light of book 6 we still are. If Harry had apologized in book 5 then by now he would feel like a complete fool and wimp, and I would agree with him. > I really doubt LV would offer > Harry a pensieve But if he did I really doubt Harry would apologize for taking advantage of Voldemort's mistake. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 15:11:23 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:11:23 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139196 "pippin_999" wrote: > Snape did respect Harry's sexual privacy > he did not actually force Harry to relive > his memory of kissing Cho That was Harry's doing not Snape's. If you remember that was one of the few time Harry had any success in Occlumency; when Snape tried to access that very private memory he was throw backward by Harry and the Potions Master an angry burn on his hand. > All he needed to say was, "I shouldn't > have looked in your pensieve, sir, and > I'm sorry." So want Harry to lie, to say "I'm sorry" when it is quite obvious to readers he is not. And I am quite sure Harry has absolutely no guilt about it now and just wishes he'd ignored the Pensive and ripped open his skull and looked at his brains. > Since Harry was indeed sorry he > looked, and knew it was wrong Harry was very upset because he learned unpleasant things about his father, he was not upset that he violated Snape's rights. Eggplant From lady.indigo at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 08:27:53 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:27:53 -0400 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: References: <63378ee705082915361c37d2a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139197 On 8/31/05, msbeadsley wrote: > > I have been trying (for hours) to respond to this thread coolly, with > point by point rebuttals, but what it boils down to is that your > sympathy, for whatever reason, is with Snape. I can argue and > illustrate and quote canon until I'm blue in the face and it isn't > going to make any difference; you're going to believe what you > believe, regardless of how --adjectives deleted-- unrealistic, let us > say, I might find certain arguments in support of the notion that > Harry is or ever has in any sense been in arrears with regards to > Snape. If the majority of people rebutting what I was saying were actually right about the point that I was initially trying to make, I'd shrug and agree to disagree with you in this vein. Snape in general opens up plenty of cans of worms about nature vs. nurture, blame, psychology, hatred, the way children do or do not reflect their parents, and let's not forget whose side Snape has been on this whole time in the first place. There are no right or wrong answers to these just yet and we'll be here all night if we try and find them. And I have my sympathies just as much as you have yours, though I'm NOT alone in mine regardless of how many people have been silent on Snape's part in this thread. But they - and you, apparently - seem to think that my implying saying Harry has been biased and not done everything he could means that Snape is excused for everything he did, has done, and will do over the thirtysomething span of years in his life. Or that, whether or not we excuse it, Harry should. Or that, whatever Snape's psychological state is, it's Harry's job to heal him! That's not what I'm saying, that's never what I said, and I don't believe any of those things. But Snape could turn out to be the spawn of the devil for all I care and I'll continue to tow the line regarding Harry's apology because it's based on what we and Harry knew in Book 5. If while getting sidetracked onto the issues of Marauder culpability, Snape's psychology, and whatever else, I interwove them with that original point then it's my own fault but it's never what I intended. I definitely have my own opinions on those things, and I expressed them, but that's not what this thread started as and it's not what it's about. Regarding what Harry has done wrong, I only make these points: 1. Snape had important skills to teach Harry, and Harry never even tried to tough these lessons out, in spite of how Dumbledore said they were necessary. 2. Harry intruded on a private and humiliating memory of Snape's and never made a full attempt at apology for doing so. 3. Harry never told Snape that what his father did was wrong and he is sorry, not for existing or in the name of taking on his father's deeds, simply *sorry that it happened to Snape.* Which, considering his reaction to the memory, is true. 4. Harry also never told Snape that to a degree Snape was right about his father (but that Harry is NOT his father and should not be treated the same way). Considering Snape's the kind of man who will remember every last detail of an enemy's failings, and harp on them for years to come, I don't doubt that he's taken all four of these things into account and seen Harry's choice of response - silence, defiance, and lots of anger - as more evidence of arrogance and a sense of entitlement. Certainly he's wrong and this isn't the true way to look at things. But it's how his mind works. Harry has never attempted to diffuse this additional evidence and even create the *possibility* in Snape's mind that he can have a humble moment where he admits to his own wrongdoing. He hasn't apologized for his own few and minor failings, hasn't even been very sorry for them in private. He didn't try to keep things pleasant enough between him and Snape that he could learn what it was very important for him to learn in OotP. Would it have worked if he did? Probably not. But he would have tried. Is it a lot to expect from him? Yes. But it's still not the best response to those few moments. It's definitely a realistic response. I'm just saying that Harry has not been a saint and, most importantly, has not done everything he could do for his OWN benefit, not Snape's. Does this excuse Snape's actions towards Harry? Hell no. Are we totally beyond apologies now, all things considered, and it's going to be Harry taking the high road - either to put aside his anger and work with Snape, or to show some kind of mercy - that indicates his maturity instead? In my mind, definitely. When someone comes to me with a rebuttal that doesn't involve me being made out to be an enabler of Snape's abuse, or someone who's discounted the many ways he's a complete bastard, a rebuttal that doesn't refer to things Snape had done/would do that Harry had no idea he'd taken any part in...those are the debates I'll listen to and stop being stubborn about. Otherwise the real issue's being sidetracked in the name of other things, so certainly my position on it can't be swayed. And while we're at it, and just so I'm talking about more than one thing on this list, let's brush on this with a slightly less loaded character: I don't like Draco at all. I think he's a one-dimensional pampered bragging brat and I make no allowances for his behavior save that prejudices can sometimes get passed on from the parents before kids even know the implications - but Sirius shows that this doesn't have to happen and it can definitely come down to just strength of character, which Malfoy doesn't have. But do I think Harry should apologize for throwing a powerful curse labelled 'for enemies' at him without even knowing what it did? Even if Draco was casting an Unforgiveable at the moment? YES. Because it was a freaking stupid thing to do, and it could have killed someone, and Harry had plenty of other options. And once again: taking accountability for your mistakes is a sign of maturity. No matter what. - Lady Indigo From quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 31 06:51:12 2005 From: quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca (quick_silver71) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:51:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139198 "Steve" wrote: > Of course, I can't blame it all on the adults, although it is their > responsibility; Harry is very lazy about his practice. If it had been > me, I would be researching Dark Arts and Anti-Dark Arts with every > free minute of time. He could practice dueling with Harry and Ron. I > sure he could even find other member of the D.A. Club, or members of > the Order, who would duel with him. He has a set of Defense Against > Dark Art Encyclopedias which were given to him at Christmas by Sirius > and Remus. Instead of mucking about with the HBP Advance Potions book, > he would have done much better to study and practice from his Defense > Against Dark Arts book set. Would they teach him what he needs to know or what he thinks that he needs to know. There are probably hundreds of wizards that could do the same thing, Hermione being a prime example, yet there is more to fighting Voldemort then throwing out spells. Harry is already a good dueler. He loses to Snape at the end of HBP because Snape is deploying everything he has against Harry...his non- verbal skills and his Legilimency. In the first DADA lesson Harry clearly out draws Snape even though Harry has no warning and Snape is using a non-verbal spell. It will be when Harry learns either more non-verbal magic or how to block his mind that he will be a match for Snape (that day could be coming very soon...Snape is quite clearly within Harry's league unlike Voldemort). > Look at how easily Dumbledore manuvered though the maze of > enchantments in the cave, would it have killed him to explain to Harry > how he knew some of the things he knew, so that Harry could be > prepared to face the remaining Horcruxes? Would it have killed > Dumbledore to answer a few of Harry questions? Yet J.K. has said that Dumbledore was mainly self-taught. Perhaps he takes the view that Harry must learn these things on his own. Despite finding Snape's copy of Advanced Potion-Making Harry showed no willingness to expand upon it. Rather then find his own way Harry stole another's...perhaps Dumbledore is discouraging that? Quick Silver From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Aug 31 15:52:43 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:52:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005b01c5ae44$07240f20$673b79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 139199 lady Indigo said 2. Harry intruded on a private and humiliating memory of Snape's and never made a full attempt at apology for doing so. Sherry now: I really want to address a different point in your post, so all i say here is that I do not believe Harry owes an apology to an abuser. No child should have to apologize to one who has consistently abused him, someone in authority who has taken advantage of that position. Emotional and verbal abuse is as serious and potentially damaging as physical abuse. That's all I really have to say on the subject. To me, Harry has taken the high road long enough and doesn't need to grovel to Snape. Lady Indigo 3. Harry never told Snape that what his father did was wrong and he is sorry, not for existing or in the name of taking on his father's deeds, simply *sorry that it happened to Snape.* Which, considering his reaction to the memory, is true. 4. Harry also never told Snape that to a degree Snape was right about his father (but that Harry is NOT his father and should not be treated the same way). Sherry now: There is no way any child should ever have to apologize for the deeds of its parents. For that matter, why should someone apologize for the wrong behavior of any other person. That doesn't make sense psychologically. My father married five times before his death at 57. Should I and my brothers and sister now go look up all our ex stepmothers and apologize that our father could not remain faithful? Nonsense! We owe them nothing. What happened between them and Dad was their business and he is solely responsible for his actions, as are they? and they were adults. When these marriages changed in our childhoods, should we have gone to the dispossessed woman and told her we were sorry and that our dad was a jerk? No way. In the same way, Harry doesn't need to tell Snape that Snape was right about James. Again, we have only one memory of Snape's to go by. We don't know what happened between James and Snape after this. How do we know James never tried to apologize? Isn't it good enough that James saved Snape's life? Isn't it even remotely possible he could have tried a number of times to apologize to Snape in the years after the pensieve incident? We just don't know. If somehow, I suddenly became employed by one of my ex stepmothers, and she spent all our working relationship, bad-mouthing my dad and tormenting me over what my dad did, or taking it out on me at work in her position of authority, should I then sit down and say Yes, so-and-so, you are right. Yes, bad mouth my dad to me. Yes he was a ***** There's no way I'm going to do that. I'd be quiet, even though in my heart I'd know, do know, that Dad had problems. But it is not for me to criticize him outside the family. He doesn't deserve that, when he is no longer here to defend himself. I need not defend him, but I need not apologize for him either. even in telling this story here, I am not speaking with criticism of Dad or to defend or regret his actions. It is not my place to do so. Neither is it Harry's place to apologize for his father's actions or even to betray his father by admitting his dad was wrong to Snape. And consider this, when you say Harry showed no remorse. Do you think Snape could have expected that Harry would rush back to the common room and tell his friends all about it, which would have ended up racing through the entire school? Snape could very well have expected this, but Harry has never revealed what he saw. He didn't even need to say it was his dad that did it. He could have just talked about some kids bullying and embarrassing Snape. But he kept quiet. I think he deserves some credit for that, and it is as far as he needs to go in expressing his remorse for looking or his shame at his dad's actions. Remember, James was a teenager. just my opinion. Sherry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 16:00:59 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:00:59 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139200 Lady Indigo: ....and let's not forget whose side Snape > has been on this whole time in the first place. Alla: Yes, that is a very good question after HBP. Lady Indigo: And I have my sympathies just as much as you have yours, though I'm > NOT alone in mine regardless of how many people have been silent on Snape's > part in this thread. Alla: This is absolutely true. :-) Lady Indigo: > Regarding what Harry has done wrong, I only make these points: > > 1. Snape had important skills to teach Harry, and Harry never even tried to > tough these lessons out, in spite of how Dumbledore said they were > necessary. Alla: I submit that we don't know that anymore after HBP. Have you noticed that Dumbledore not only cheerfully calls Occlumency lessons a Fiasco But he does not even bother to teach Harry Occlumency anymore. It seems to me that Occlumency may not be vital tool that Harry needs to defend Voldie. Lady Indigo: > 2. Harry intruded on a private and humiliating memory of Snape's and never > made a full attempt at apology for doing so. Alla: No, he did not and if the relationship between Snape and Harry would have been different, I would be the first one to say that he should Lady Indigo: > 3. Harry never told Snape that what his father did was wrong and he is > sorry, not for existing or in the name of taking on his father's deeds, > simply *sorry that it happened to Snape.* Which, considering his reaction to > the memory, is true. Alla: Harry felt sorry for Snape, which I consider to be pretty big deal, again considering Snape's tereatment of Harry all these years and I have no doubt that if Snape would not have threw him out, Harry would have told him just that. Just as he told Albus that he WAS sorry for looking in his Pensieve. LAdy Indigo: > 4. Harry also never told Snape that to a degree Snape was right about his > father (but that Harry is NOT his father and should not be treated the same > way). Alla: OK, to this point I would never agree even for the sake of argument. IMO, for Harry to tell Snape that Snape was right about his father, would be validating Snape's grossly inappropriate remarks about James in the first place. And to me those remarks should not be validated, EVER. Lady Indigo: > Would it have worked if he did? Probably not. But he would have tried. > Is it a lot to expect from him? Yes. But it's still not the best response to > those few moments. It's definitely a realistic response. I'm just saying > that Harry has not been a saint and, most importantly, has not done > everything he could do for his OWN benefit, not Snape's. > Does this excuse Snape's actions towards Harry? Hell no. Alla: OK, I confess, you absolutely lost me here. You agree that expecting Harry to apologise would NOT be realistic writing, right? So, why would you want it to be there? Who would have apologised to man who made his life hell for five years, even if the boy's actions were wrong, wrong, wrong? Harry is definitely not a saint, and I love him for that. His reactions are often the reactions of normal sixteen year old. For what reason he would have to decided that he needs to apologise after the fact,especially after everything that happened? Harry does not have parents ( partially thanks to dear Snape) who would have probably told him that it is better to take the high road and apologise to this jerk. ( Hmmm, I can just imagine James saying that :-)) As Lupinlore said Dumbledore actually NEVER insisted for Harry to show Snape extra gratitude, just to call him Professor,as any other teacher. See, since I expect Harry to forgive Snape at the end, to me it would be action of the saint already and difficult enough to swallow. I would much prefer Harry NOT to behave like one till the end of the books at least. I much prefer normal teenager's reactions :-) JMO of course, Alla. From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 31 16:08:42 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the Life Debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050831160842.78762.qmail@web53304.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139201 amiabledorsai wrote: Delwynmarch wrote: I think the idea that you cannot be part of killing the person you owe a life debt to is a good working hypothsis - though I don't think there's any support for this in the text. In fact, I can't think of any place the workings of a life debt are explained. But that you can't murder the person who saved your life seems pretty intuitively correct. Luckdragon: I thought it strange that Peter was able to cut Harry during Voldemort's rebirth,I would have thought the lifedebt would not physically enabled him to do this as it seems to be taken so litterally in the wizarding world. Perhaps it is simply a moral concept which really does not need to be upheld or has no bearing on an immoral person. --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daniel.blakey at stcatz.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 31 11:36:24 2005 From: daniel.blakey at stcatz.ox.ac.uk (dan_blakey) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:36:24 -0000 Subject: The Gleam! The Gleam! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139202 Pippin wrote: > Dumbledore knew, when he heard that Voldemort had taken > Harry's blood, that Voldemort would excuse Snape for not > offing Harry when he had the chance, and therefore Snape could > indeed resume his role as spy. Thus the gleam of triumph, > and thus the reason said gleam has not yet been explained. > > SNIP Dan: I've been mulling this one over for some time as a long time HP4GU lurker! Here are some facts as I see them: 1. Harry is protected through his blood because of Lily's sacrifice 2. To maintain this protection Harry must return to a "home" where his mother's blood resides, in Petunia. A week is long enough to provide another year's protection. 3. This is magic that Voldemort despises, possibly does not fully comprehend, and under-estimates. 4. Voldemort took Harry's blood to regenerate and could touch Harry in the imediate aftermath. 5. We are told through Snape in HBP that V. thinks he is now "invincible" english edition spinners end p 38 It is my belief that the protection conferred in the graveyard in GoF to Voldemort can no longer exist! Harry MUST go back to the Dursley's to allow the protection to continue, which (unless he has been hiding under the sofa ;-) )Voldmort has not been. The protection in V. was fleeting (maybe lasting a year?) but as he both underestimates and despises the ancient magic he has overlooked it (as he did at Godric's Hollow). If Snape is right and he believes himself invincible this could be his downfall, and the cause of Dumbledore's mysterious Gleam! Dan From lady.indigo at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 15:19:46 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:19:46 -0400 Subject: The Key to Snape? Response to Valky In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63378ee705083108193ef71085@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139203 Vmonte wrote: > > I cannot completely see Snape as a victim though. I do not think that > his atraction to Lily was a healthy thing. It was probably darker and > obsessive. I think considering what Snape's emotional state either was or was becoming, this was the only kind of love it could have been. He definitely wasn't in the position for a selfless kind of love where he watched Lily fall for James with his blessing. A friend of mine off-list once suggested to me that maybe he sent Voldemort after James and Harry, thinking Lily would be spared, and it was after her death that he realized what he'd done. I'm not sure if this actually happened or not, but I found the idea really interesting. - Lady Indigo From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 10:11:24 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:11:24 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and Elizabeth Bennet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139204 Jamie wrote: > From Harry's initial > (and justified) dislike of Snape, he has been determined to think > the worst of him no matter what, exactly like Lizzy in "Pride and > Prejudice". Also, Snape's pride is comparable to Mr. Darcy's. He > takes great pride in his skills and as the "Half-Blood Prince". > IMO, although his dislike of James may have begun with jealousy, his > hatred stemmed from his pride. > Are these parallels intentional? If so, does this mean Harry > is wrong about Snape even now? Mimbeltonia: Yes, I think that Harry, as well as the readers, are supposed to have all their prejudices against Severus Snape confirmed and strengthened by the HBP, and that there is a certain paralell to Elisabeth/Darcy in this. However I do not think it will go as far as to make Snape the misunderstood hero of it all. >Of course these two won't be falling in > love, like their counterparts, but will they have to work together? Mimbeltonia: I think they must work together towards the end, never as close friends, but with some sort of understanding. >SNIP > p.s. I haven't read Emma(which most know is JKR's favorite Austen > novel), are there eny connections there? Mimbeltonia: It is quite a while since I read it, and I can not find any clear paralell here, but Emma is certainly both proud and prejudiced in her own way. She is getting so into her own view of what is good for her friends and how things ought to be for them that she leads her best friend into giving up the man she loves because Emma thinks she should marry somebody "better" (ie richer). She is certainly misjudging the situation and doing some damage (luckily reparable in the end) through her well-meaning. -Mimbeltonia From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 31 16:23:23 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:23:23 -0000 Subject: Will the DEs die if Voldy does? (was: Harry's character development) In-Reply-To: <43154C7D.7020901@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139205 KJ writes: > If, as I suspect, the Dark Mark will kill the DEs on Voldemort's > true death (can you see him allowing them to survive if he does > not?) Snape must in turn make the choice to die rather than allow > Voldemort to survive.... SSSusan: I am pulling out this tiny snippet of the post because it intrigues me. I'm curious what others think about this issue. HAS Voldy set things up such that (via the Dark Mark for instance), upon his death, all the DEs will die, too? It certainly sounds like the *kind* of thing Voldy might go for. OTOH, I can't get past Lucius & the diary. If Lucius and all the DEs knew about this, then they'd all have known Voldy did NOT die at Godric's Hollow, right? I mean, they're all still standing! So, then, how could Lucius have claimed to have not known that Voldy was still alive? (His excuse in the graveyard for not having come looking for Voldy over the years, IIRC.) Are you thinking that Voldy has set up this death connection... but that the DEs aren't aware of it? Siriusly Snapey Susan From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 16:40:55 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:40:55 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139206 Lady Indigo: > 4. Harry also never told Snape that to a degree Snape was right > about his father (but that Harry is NOT his father and should not > be treated the same way). > > Considering Snape's the kind of man who will remember every last > detail of an enemy's failings, and harp on them for years to come, > I don't doubt that he's taken all four of these things into account > and seen Harry's choice of response - silence, defiance, and lots of > anger - as more evidence of arrogance and a sense of entitlement. Amiable Dorsai: Let me say that I agree with what I think is one of your main points: that it would be a good thing for Harry if he could learn to be a bigger man, regardless of Snape's reaction. You also seem to think that Snape would respond favorably to an apologetic overture--I reserve judgement on that, but I'll grant you the possibilty. Remembering that Harry was raised by two bullies and grew up with a third--and Dudley, at least, seems to delight in attacking Harry's weak points--do you see anything in Harry's life experience that would lead *Harry* to believe that apologizing to a bully would improve anything? Amiable Dorsai From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 16:44:23 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:44:23 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139207 wrote: > Regarding what Harry has done wrong, > I only make these points: > Snape had important skills to teach > Harry, and Harry never even tried to > tough these lessons out And in light of what we have just learned in the new book it seems entirely possible, perhaps even probable, that Snape was deliberately sabotaging the lessons. Certainly Harry did not trust Snape and trust is essential in a Occlumency teacher. > Harry intruded on a private and > humiliating memory of Snape's And good for Harry! > and never made a full attempt at > apology for doing so. Harry never made ANY attempt at apology and I would have lost a lot of respect for him if he had; and by the end of book 6 he would have lost respect for himself too. > Harry never told Snape that what > his father did was wrong Because you can not apologize for what somebody else did and making Snape feel better was, quite understandably, not very high on Harry's priority list. > Harry also never told Snape that > to a degree Snape was right about > his father And that was fortunate because now that we have a better understanding of the sort of man Snape is we can speculate on the sort of things he did when he was 15, and so the case is less strong that James was just a bully. I have a hunch that if we knew more about Snape the boy we would have more sympathy for James and less for Snape. And you just don't tell a man you hate with a passion and who hates your guts even more that your father was no good. Eggplant From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Aug 31 16:58:34 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:58:34 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Harry has never attempted to diffuse this additional evidence and even > create the *possibility* in Snape's mind that he can have a humble moment > where he admits to his own wrongdoing. He hasn't apologized for his own few > and minor failings, hasn't even been very sorry for them in private. He > didn't try to keep things pleasant enough between him and Snape that he > could learn what it was very important for him to learn in OotP. > Would it have worked if he did? Probably not. But he would have tried. > Is it a lot to expect from him? Yes. But it's still not the best response to > those few moments. It's definitely a realistic response. I'm just saying > that Harry has not been a saint and, most importantly, has not done > everything he could do for his OWN benefit, not Snape's. > Does this excuse Snape's actions towards Harry? Hell no. > Are we totally beyond apologies now, all things considered, and it's going > to be Harry taking the high road - either to put aside his anger and work > with Snape, or to show some kind of mercy - that indicates his maturity > instead? In my mind, definitely. > When someone comes to me with a rebuttal that doesn't involve me being made > out to be an enabler of Snape's abuse, or someone who's discounted the many > ways he's a complete bastard, a rebuttal that doesn't refer to things Snape > had done/would do that Harry had no idea he'd taken any part in...those are > the debates I'll listen to and stop being stubborn about. Otherwise the real > issue's being sidetracked in the name of other things, so certainly my > position on it can't be swayed. > Well, this raises any number of issues. First of all, does "the way Snape's mind works" make any difference in the should's and should not's of Harry's interactions with him? On one level, I suppose it does, if Harry were to look for the most practical path that is least fraught with friction. But that is not what Harry is looking for, and I, for one, don't think it's appropriate for Harry to look for such a path. Harry and Snape's interactions can be read on any number of levels. There is the practical level, it's true. There is also the psychological level. On both those levels trying to find some accomodation with Snape, or at least making the gesture, is appropriate. But then there is the moral level, and I'm not at all sure that such a gesture or policy on Harry's part IS appropriate on that level. And I don't think a lot of the other responders on this thread think that is appropriate, either. Now, the question of people responding to you on levels that aren't predicated on you "excusing Snape," etc. -- well, I don't think you're going to get that. One can analytically talk about Harry's response to his own failings despite Snape's attitude, but the fact of the matter is that just isn't the way life is or the way people are. In these kinds of situations it's impossible, on the level of real and actual interaction, to abstract feelings and response from context. You can't talk, realistically and practically, about one person's guilt and actions without implying very strongly messages about the guilt, or lack thereof, of the other party. Once again, life just isn't that way and people just don't think or act that way. Such is the reason so many real-life problems are intractable. It is very easy to say, for example, "why don't the Palestinians and the Israelis realize they're both in the wrong," or "why can't discussions about racism lead to both parties realizing they have prejudices" or "why can't Snape and Harry realize they've both judged the other a priori?" But the fact is the reason that doesn't happen is because it's impossible on any wide or deep scale. Any admission of guilt by one party is taken as letting the other party off the hook. Any imputation of guilt to one party is, in effect, in the real world of real people interacting in real ways, taken as being an excuse for the other party. It "shouldn't" be that way, if you think the world "should" be logical (and I don't see why it should be, but a lot of people evidently would like it to be that way). And so, I'm afraid that asking for Harry to "rise above" the situation, or for posters not to answer the real-world implications of a certain position, is barking up an empty tree. Lupinlore From merpsiren at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 17:01:23 2005 From: merpsiren at yahoo.com (Kris) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:01:23 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139209 > Amiable Dorsai: > Let me say that I agree with what I think is one of your main points: > that it would be a good thing for Harry if he could learn to be a > bigger man, regardless of Snape's reaction. This "learn to be a bigger man" really made an impression on me. And immediately made me think of the ENORMOUS role model Dumbledore is to Harry. While reading HBP I couldn't help but to giggle at some of the actions of Dumbledore remaining cool and collected around very rude people. Perhaps another small lesson pointed towards Harry? HBP: All are quotes by Dumbledore... pg 46 "-yet, sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often," "Best to say nothing at all, my dear man." pg 51 "But it would have been manners to drink it, you know." pg 593 "Jokes? No, no, these are manners," As well as several other scenes... first meeting Tom Riddle and insisting that he return all of the object he had stolen from other orphans; reminding Harry that the Weasleys have made great sacrifices in order to have heightened security while Harry visits. Little lessons to show it costs nothing to take the high road? Just a thought!- Kris From kjones at telus.net Wed Aug 31 17:43:33 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:43:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Will the DEs die if Voldy does? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4315EC45.2080406@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 139210 cubfanbudwoman wrote: > KJ writes: > > If, as I suspect, the Dark Mark will kill the DEs on Voldemort's > > true death (can you see him allowing them to survive if he does > > not?) Snape must in turn make the choice to die rather than allow > > Voldemort to survive.... > > > SSSusan: > I am pulling out this tiny snippet of the post because it intrigues > me. I'm curious what others think about this issue. HAS Voldy set > things up such that (via the Dark Mark for instance), upon his death, > all the DEs will die, too? It certainly sounds like the *kind* of > thing Voldy might go for. > > OTOH, I can't get past Lucius & the diary. If Lucius and all the DEs > knew about this, then they'd all have known Voldy did NOT die at > Godric's Hollow, right? I mean, they're all still standing! So, > then, how could Lucius have claimed to have not known that Voldy was > still alive? (His excuse in the graveyard for not having come > looking for Voldy over the years, IIRC.) > > Are you thinking that Voldy has set up this death connection... but > that the DEs aren't aware of it? KJ writes: When Voldemort became Vapormort, the Mark faded. To me this suggests that the Mark is directly tied to Voldemort's health and/or magical status. In the pensieve scene in GoF, Bellatrix said that Voldemort would rise again and that they would be rewarded for trying to find him. In the Flesh, Blood, and Bone chapter, Voldemort accuses them of believing that he is "broken" and "gone" but dead is not mentioned. He obviously believes that all of them would have known that he was not dead. Lucius actually said that he had been waiting for word, or any sign of his whereabouts. Basically his excuse was that he didn't know where to look. That would have made V. even more furious with Lucius using the diary because he knew V. wasn't dead. I don't think that the DEs are told that if V. dies, they do as well, although it would certainly encourage them to look after him with considerably more devotion if they did know. It would allow JKR to tie up a lot of loose ends in a hurry. KJ From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 18:08:18 2005 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:08:18 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139211 Lady Indigo: >1. Snape had important skills to teach Harry, and Harry never even >tried to tough these lessons out, in spite of how Dumbledore said they >were necessary. >2. Harry intruded on a private and humiliating memory of Snape's and >never made a full attempt at apology for doing so. >3. Harry never told Snape that what his father did was wrong and he is >sorry, not for existing or in the name of taking on his father's deeds, >simply *sorry that it happened to Snape.* Which, considering his >reaction to the memory, is true. >4. Harry also never told Snape that to a degree Snape was right about >his father (but that Harry is NOT his father and should not be treated >the same way). Ceridwen: On point 1, I agree. Even if Dumbledore has decided a year later that the lessons are not necessary, or even if he just gave up, Harry didn't put his full effort into them. Maybe that year was the year he needed them. In fact, it was. That was the year that not Occluding his mind started the process which ended with Sirius dying at the MoM. Positive result: Fudge *had* to acknowledge that Voldemort was back, and several DEs were rounded up. 2. Yes, I would have recommended that he apologize. It was Harry's lesson, after all, not Snape's, and it was up to Harry to shield his mind. And since we don't know if that was the full memory, or if there was more; or what the other memories extracted might have been, had they been left in Snape's mind, they could have been *very* disturbing to Harry to suddenly break in on them, not to mention Snape's problems with them. 3. I don't think Snape gave Harry a chance to commisserate with him. I seem to recall that Harry might have tried. But it's been a while since I've read OotP. I thought it was too bad that they couldn't come to a meeting place on that one, since they both have experienced that sort of misuse by peers. IMO, it was a chance missed, for both parties. (and before someone says, yeah, but Snape *murdered Dumbledore*, he hadn't done so at that time, and Harry was never all that good at Divination) 4. I can't see him saying Snape was in any degree *right* about his father, all he saw was one incident. See number 3 for more. However, saying that he could see what Snape meant is another thing altogether. And, Snape didn't give him the chance. Remember, Harry still had to get over his own shock at the scene. On apologizing at all, yes, I would recommend it to my kids. I was raised on the 'be the bigger person no matter what' theory of manners, and I don't see where it did me any harm. It costs nothing to apologize. And, even from a Slytherin perspective, it could be beneficial down the road as well. BUT! I don't think Harry was able to. He had a poor upbringing. If Petunia taught him that he should be humble in any way, she probably browbeat it into him, making it that much less likely that Harry would do it, even grudgingly. I'm not even sure he was taught manners at all. It seems the only time he uses them, or is pleasant to people, is either with people his own age, or people who are very nice to him, like the Weasleys. I think in Harry's case more than many others, he *must* be able to see someone being 'big' about something first before he reacts to it. I think he was stunted in his social education to the point where he certainly would not have seen, or acknowledged, any reason to apologize, given Snape's attitude immediately afterwards, which IMO was somewhat understandable since Snape's feelings may well have been hurt, as much as Harry not wanting to apologize after being bombed with roaches. I don't think either one of them is capable of 'taking the high road' now. Harry has a lot of both healing and growing up to do. I don't know if it would ever be possible for Snape - can someone so long damaged and so dislikeable on top of it, learn different after thirty- something years? Anyway, it's regrettable. IMO, Harry *needs* to learn a lot more before he goes off to face Voldemort. It would have been to his benefit to be able to apologize (if Snape would have given him room to do it before throwing roaches). I just don't think Harry was able. Snape had something to offer, but was just incapable. To Harry's detriment. Ceridwen. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 18:14:57 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:14:57 -0000 Subject: The Cave a Vision of the Future - End of Book 7? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139212 vmonte: Dumbledore tells Harry that putting a horcrux into a living creature is not a good idea because the horcrux can be influenced by it's host. If Lily has been protecting Harry all these years then perhaps she has transformed LV's soul piece (the piece inside Harry). Maybe this is the way to destroy Voldemort. We already know that Voldemort is incapable of going into Harry's head due to the love that is there. Can you imagine what a "love infused horcrux" will do to him? The Scene in the Cave When Harry Force Feeds Dumbledore The Potion: "I don't want...don't make me Don't like ... want to stop No. I don't want to ... I don't want to ... let me go Make it stop, make it stop No, no, no ... no ... I can't ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to It's all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop. I know I did wrong. Oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again. Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything No more, please, no more I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die! Kill me!" Is this a preview of what will happen to Voldemort in book 7? when he takes the horcrux out of Harry and reinserts it into his head? He won't even suspect what it will do to him. This type of ending is really satisfying for me because it would mean that Harry will turn Voldemort's weapon against him. Perhaps Harry's weakness is that he has a "people saving thing," like his mother did. Harry will find in book 7 that he is the last horcrux and he will sacrifice himself. (I just hope that Ginny has knowledge from DiaryTom that she will use to save Harry.) Vivian "...humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things that are worst for them." "Ah, now, I'm glad you asked me that. It was one of my more brilliant ideas, and between you and me, that's saying something. You see, only one who wanted to find the Stone--find it, but not use it--would be able to get it..." Sorcerer's/Philospher's Stone From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 18:18:35 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:18:35 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <005b01c5ae44$07240f20$673b79a5@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139213 > Sherry now: > Emotional and verbal > abuse is as serious and potentially damaging as physical abuse. > That's all I really have to say on the subject. To me, Harry has > taken the high road > long enough and doesn't need to grovel to Snape. zgirnius: I strongly agree with Lady Indigo's overall point that, all future events aside, a "best" reaction for Harry in this case would have been to speak to Snape about the Pensieve incident again, as this is a specific action of Harry's where he was in the wrong, and he himself knows/feels it. I certainly do not believe (and am willing to guess Indigo also does not) that Harry ought to have grovelled. Certainly not, all we are suggesting is a simple, dignified apology. Sherry now: > > There is no way any child should ever have to apologize for the deeds of its > parents. For that matter, why should someone apologize for the wrong > behavior of any other person. That doesn't make sense psychologically. My > father married five times before his death at 57. Should I and my brothers > and sister now go look up all our ex stepmothers and apologize that our > father could not remain faithful? Nonsense! We owe them nothing. > If somehow, I suddenly became employed by one of my ex stepmothers, and she > spent all our working relationship, bad-mouthing my dad and tormenting me > over what my dad did, or taking it out on me at work in her position of > authority, should I then sit down and say Yes, so-and-so, you are right. > Yes, bad mouth my dad to me. Yes he was a ***** There's no way I'm going > to do that. I'd be quiet, even though in my heart I'd know, do know, that > Dad had problems. But it is not for me to criticize him outside the family. > He doesn't deserve that, when he is no longer here to defend himself. I > need not defend him, but I need not apologize for him either. even in > telling this story here, I am not speaking with criticism of Dad or to > defend or regret his actions. It is not my place to do so. > > Neither is it Harry's place to apologize for his father's actions or even to > betray his father by admitting his dad was wrong to Snape. zgirnius: I really like your analogy here, actually, even though below you will see that I disagree with your conclusion. I think it is a good fit for the situation in which Harry finds himself at Hogwarts vis-a-vis Snape... It is absolutely not your, or Harry's, place, to accept any abuse from your hypothetical boss/Snape becasue of your fathers' relationships to those persons. Nor do either of you have any obligation to apologize to those persons for any bad actions your fathers may or may not have committed against them. However, Harry after the Pensieve incident is in a slightly different position than you in your hypothetical job. The overall situation is an excellent analogy. But, let's say that in the course of your work you have occasional access to your boss's desk. Anyway, one day your boss leaves and you succumb to a temptation to look in a drawer where you suspect she keeps personal papers. She returns to find you reading some really embarrassing detail of her relationship with your father. (This is pretty much what Harry did.) We're saying at this point, we would suggest you owe your boss a simple, dignified apology. *ONLY* for having peeked at her papers, not for the contents thereof. You might also choose to take this opportunity (the one time you do actually do have something for which to apologize!) to make a single attempt to clear the air between you. Along the lines of, "I get that you do not like my father. As far as I am concerned, that's between you and him. I hope that in the future we can work together as professionals." In my own view, this is not just an issue of good manners/right action, there is a practical value as well (though of course, that is why we *have* manners, they do grease the wheels of society...). I agree that Snape has been treating Snape abysmally all along. And it is more than just the favoring Slytherins/dissing Gryffindors dynamic that we see with other characters, that one might expect of a Head of Slytherin House. No, it's personal. I think that an apology regarding this one incident (really a fairly unique case where Harry was in the wrong, IMO) would have also been a fine opportunity to confront Snape regarding their relationship all these years. Along the lines of, "I am sorry I peeked in your Pensieve, Sir. It was wrong of me to do so." Followed by "I understand that you and my father really did not get along. That is between the two of you. It need not affect our relationship." Yes, this might just make Snape madder. Or it might make him think. (Or both, in sequence.) I do not see how it could make things *worse*. Harry is, as far as I am concerned, free to leave if Snape starts blowing up more jars of cockroaches . And by this action, even more free to make snide remarks in Snape's class if he so wishes, in the future, in the event Snape does not repsond positively to this overture. SHerry: > And consider this, when you say Harry showed no remorse. Do you think Snape > could have expected that Harry would rush back to the common room and tell > his friends all about it, which would have ended up racing through the > entire school? Snape could very well have expected this, but Harry has > never revealed what he saw. He didn't even need to say it was his dad that > did it. He could have just talked about some kids bullying and embarrassing > Snape. But he kept quiet. I think he deserves some credit for that, and it > is as far as he needs to go in expressing his remorse for looking or his > shame at his dad's actions. Remember, James was a teenager. zgirnius: Oh, definitely, I agree with you 100% here. Harry does get credit for keeping this a deep, dark secret. I don't think he would spread it around the school, but he mentions it to *noone* who is not already in on the incident for having been there. Not even to Hermione to get her off his back about Occlumency, though she is someone he might trust to keep it quiet, and is someone who has at that point in his life been giving him some relationship advice. And now from post 139200, also in this thread... Lady Indigo: > 1. Snape had important skills to teach Harry, and Harry never even tried to > tough these lessons out, in spite of how Dumbledore said they were > necessary. Alla: I submit that we don't know that anymore after HBP. Have you noticed that Dumbledore not only cheerfully calls Occlumency lessons a Fiasco But he does not even bother to teach Harry Occlumency anymore. It seems to me that Occlumency may not be vital tool that Harry needs to defend Voldie. zgirnius now:: I think this is another case where facts arising *after* the incident are being used to explain Harry's action. I believe DD concluded Occlumency was not going to be important after LV failed to possess Harry at the MoM. Throughout Book 5, for all we know, it *was* a vital skill, Harry certainly did not know otherwise. Had Harry had this skill, he would not have goon to the Ministry...so we cannot dismiss it as useless. Alla: >As Lupinlore said Dumbledore actually NEVER insisted for Harry to >show Snape extra gratitude, just to call him Professor,as any other >teacher. zgirnius: And noone is saying Harry ought to be extra grateful. Not even grateful, minus the extra. Using socially accepted formal titles of respect such as "Professor" and making simple, prompt apologies for bad actions are both examples of manners. From derek at rhinobunny.com Wed Aug 31 18:42:51 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:42:51 -0000 Subject: The Cave a Vision of the Future - End of Book 7? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139214 > vmonte: > Harry will find in book 7 that he is the last horcrux and he will > sacrifice himself. Derek: I suspect this is correct. "The Power The Dark Lord Knows Not" may be as "simple" as the knowledge that there are fates worse than death, and things worth dying for. From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Aug 31 19:01:34 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:01:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00c201c5ae5e$69924680$673b79a5@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 139215 zgirnius: I really like your analogy here, actually, even though below you will see that I disagree with your conclusion. I think it is a good fit for the situation in which Harry finds himself at Hogwarts vis-a-vis Snape... However, Harry after the Pensieve incident is in a slightly different position than you in your hypothetical job. The overall situation is an excellent analogy. But, let's say that in the course of your work you have occasional access to your boss's desk. Anyway, one day your boss leaves and you succumb to a temptation to look in a drawer where you suspect she keeps personal papers. She returns to find you reading some really embarrassing detail of her relationship with your father. (This is pretty much what Harry did.) We're saying at this point, we would suggest you owe your boss a simple, dignified apology. *ONLY* for having peeked at her papers, not for the contents thereof. You might also choose to take this opportunity (the one time you do actually do have something for which to apologize!) to make a single attempt to clear the air between you. Along the lines of, "I get that you do not like my father. As far as I am concerned, that's between you and him. I hope that in the future we can work together as professionals." Sherry now: i can agree with you on this. My argument was against the idea that Harry should have to apologize to Snape for James' actions or that he should have to admit Snape was right about James. Of course, Harry was in shock and probably couldn't have come up with such a clear thought as you have expressed at the time. But if he had said, ok, you and my dad didn't get along but that's your business and nothing to do with me, that's a whole lot different than something like, gee Professor, I am so sorry my dad was a jerk to you and you were definitely right all along about him. Of course, I would never peek into my boss's private papers, but if I did and got caught, I would make such an apology. But I am an adult and have learned through life experience that this could be a good way to ease things, even if it doesn't change anything. i don't know if Harry has had enough social training to understand that. Dudley's form of bullying would have taken an apology as a sign of weakness. Anyway, I can definitely agree with your hypothetical comments. It didn't involve Harry taking James' blame on himself. It didn't even go as far as to say Snape was right about James, just acknowledged that those two had problems but it is nothing to do with Harry. Sherry From nicholas at adelanta.co.uk Wed Aug 31 19:01:27 2005 From: nicholas at adelanta.co.uk (nicholas dean) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:01:27 +0100 Subject: Nagini as Horcrux In-Reply-To: <1125135680.820.14540.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1125135680.820.14540.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139216 I don't think Nagini is a Horcrux. There's a mistake in what Dumbledore says about the creation of the final Horcrux; 'After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man...' (Frank Bryce, as described at the beginning of GOF). In fact, this is not what happened; the text states clearly that Voldemort himself killed Frank. Also; it was a spur-of-the-moment thing because Frank intruded on Voldemort at the Riddle House; can one retrospectively use a murder to create a Horcrux? seems to me that it is the kind of thing where the whole process is tied in together. Also; Voldemort is supposed to use significant deaths to create his Horcruxes; you can't call Bryce's death that. Dumbledore mentions that using Nagini as a Horcrux isn't a good idea because a snake is a sentient creature; however, Voldemort himself gives an even better reason for not doing it (in GoF again) when he describes his life after trying to kill Harry, when he existed purely in spirit form 'I sometimes inhabited animals, snakes, of course, being my preference; but I was little better off inside them than as pure spirit....my possession of them shortened their lives; none of them lasted long...' Would Voldemort really choose a creature that could die as a place to keep part of his soul? Cheers, Nicholas From ibchawz at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 18:00:55 2005 From: ibchawz at yahoo.com (ibchawz) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:00:55 -0000 Subject: R.A.B possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139217 Brodeur wrote: I was rereading the OOTP and on page 114 in the American version it states "Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch Junior," said Sirius in the same brusque voice... Rodolphus's brother, Rabastan, was with them too. Do you possibly think that this Rabastan character is RAB? It is possible that this is what Lord Voldy called him, due to the fact that his name is rather long... Perhaps the first three letters do stand for the RAB that was left with the horcrux... ibchawz responds: While an interesting possibility, I don't think it is viable one. The way the note was written (with all capital letters and a period after each letter -- "R. A. B.") seemed to indicate initials. If it were the short form of Rabastan, I would have expected it to be written "Rab". In addition, Rabastan was one of the "loyal" followers that went to Azkaban for torturing Frank and Alice Longbottom. I don't have my books with me, but I believe this event occurred after LV became Vapormort. ibchawz From lady.indigo at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 18:35:38 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:35:38 -0400 Subject: The Gleam! The Gleam! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63378ee70508311135574eae@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139218 dan_blakey wrote: > It is my belief that the protection conferred in the graveyard in > GoF to Voldemort can no longer exist! Harry MUST go back to the > Dursley's to allow the protection to continue, which (unless he has > been hiding under the sofa ;-) )Voldmort has not been. The > protection in V. was fleeting (maybe lasting a year?) but as he both > underestimates and despises the ancient magic he has overlooked it > (as he did at Godric's Hollow). If Snape is right and he believes > himself invincible this could be his downfall, and the cause of > Dumbledore's mysterious Gleam! I'd say the exact opposite, actually. Whatever charm existed for Harry is now in Voldemort's blood, but it won't protect him. In fact, it may very well only work for Harry and have the adverse affect on Lily's killer, maybe even weakening him in some way. This harkens back to the theory I've seen in places that the mysterious work Lily and James had been doing maybe has something to do with love magic. - Lady Indigo From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 20:02:52 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:02:52 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139219 colebiancardi: Uh-uh. If you HAVE to take it, it ain't the highground, it's the ONLY ground. But I agree it would have been lovely to see Harry cool off toward Snape and re-interpret him as someone broken and pathetic and really just not worth building up a head of steam over. The thing is, that's really hard to do with someone who got ahold of you when you were a child and tormented you with every sign of pleasure on a sort of indefinite basis. It's a lot easier to have insight into people who don't have the ability, tendency, and frequent opportunity to trigger your fight or flight response! I wouldn't expect Harry to get sufficient perspective until after he graduates. Oh, wait, he may not, there's this quest thing. And Snape just (apparently) murdered the headmaster and fled with a bunch of Death Eaters. Never mind, then. ;-) Oh, and to the person who suggested Harry take the high road by quitting Potions (as Hermione quit Divination): the first list of required supplies Harry got from Hogwarts required a cauldron and other Potions class ingredients; so far as we know, EVERYONE had to take Potions at least through O.W.L.'s. No? Sandy aka msbeadsley From apollo414j at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 17:02:49 2005 From: apollo414j at yahoo.com (apollo414j) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:02:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139220 Rebecca wrote: > And that maybe Snape used an alternative non-verbal spell to make > Dumbledore fly up in the air. > If this was a way out of killing D it certainly did't work as D fell > to his death at the foot of the tower. While, I wouldn't go as far to say that any of these theories are wrong. I tend to lean toward the belief that Dumbledore really is dead. In regards to his flying up in the air after the curse hit him, I'd venture to say that it was written that way in order to have the maximum dramatic impact on the reader. --Jeff From nawyecka at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 20:09:09 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050831200909.63909.qmail@web60425.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139221 Snip > And now from post 139200, also in this thread... > > Lady Indigo: > > 1. Snape had important skills to teach Harry, and > Harry never even > tried to > > tough these lessons out, in spite of how > Dumbledore said they were > > necessary. > > Alla: > > I submit that we don't know that anymore after HBP. > Have you noticed > that Dumbledore not only cheerfully calls Occlumency > lessons a Fiasco > But he does not even bother to teach Harry > Occlumency anymore. > > It seems to me that Occlumency may not be vital tool > that Harry needs > to defend Voldie. > > > zgirnius now:: > I think this is another case where facts arising > *after* the incident > are being used to explain Harry's action. I believe > DD concluded > Occlumency was not going to be important after LV > failed to possess > Harry at the MoM. Snip Larry Now: Calling these Occlumency sessions "lessons" is way too kind to Snape. Imagine seeking out an instructor in the Martial Arts. A good teacher will spend hours and hours working with you on an almost infinate set of techniques and movements; using his or her vast experience to aid you in mastering these skills. Now imagine a truly awful and abusive instructor. This sort of bully will stand in front of you, command you to defend yourself in any way you can, and then proceed to pummel the tar out of you time after time after time. All the while becomming more and more frustrated that you are not trying. Maybe our hypothetical student would at some point ask, through a swollen mouth filled with shattered teeth, "master, could you please teach me some Kung Fu so I could defend myself, rather than merely telling me to defend myself and then beating the crap out of me, please?" Perhaps by fiasco Dumbledore refered not to the result but the process itself. The process being a serial abuser using the tutorial as an excuse to assault and bully his least favorite pupil. Larry ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 31 20:10:22 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:10:22 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139222 LupinLore: Any imputation of guilt to one party is, in effect, in the real world of real people interacting in real ways, taken as being an excuse for the other party. It "shouldn't" be that way, if you think the world "should" be logical (and I don't see why it should be, but a lot of people evidently would like it to be that way). And so, I'm afraid that asking for Harry to "rise above" the situation, or for posters not to answer the real-world implications of a certain position, is barking up an empty tree. Pippin: I admit that it would be expecting too much for Harry to reach the high ground on his own. That's why I said it's what I'd advise him to do if I were his mother -- that is, if it were my responsibility to point out the moral high ground to him. I'm not talking about Harry making a public apology, or even an apology that Snape demanded, both of which, I admit, might shift the dynamic between them in undesirable ways. But an apology that wasn't asked for I think would have shocked Snape and might have made him question his assessment that Harry is arrogant. Or at least it might have made him feel that Harry didn't feel he would lose any face by apologizing. The 'heap coals of fire on their heads' approach. I know that's too sophisticated for Harry to grasp, but I note that Dumbledore uses it with success on Petunia. Instead of blustering at the Dursleys, and threatening to turn them into toads if they don't do his bidding, he says he will ask only that they continue to offer Harry houseroom for one more year. And Petunia flushes -- the first time we've ever seen her express any shame at all for the way Harry's been treated in her home. It's interesting that the question of apologizing comes up in the pensieve memory itself. IIRC, James demands that Snape apologize to Evans, and Evans says she doesn't want *James* to make Snape apologize. It does sound though as if she would have accepted an apology from Snape. Is that Snape's great regret? That he could have apologized to her and never did? Should he have done so, though he would have lost face in front of the Marauders? Pippin From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 20:14:49 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:14:49 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139223 Sandy aka msbeadsley wrote: (snip) It would have been lovely to see Harry cool off toward > Snape and re-interpret him as someone broken and pathetic and really > just not worth building up a head of steam over. Meri now, not having posted in a good while. Do you really consider Snape to be "broken and pathetic"? I would consider him to be the exact opposite of that. Those two adjectives conjure up an entirely different wizard: Pete Pettigrew. But Snape seems to me to be calculating and clever, always seems to know exactly what he's doing and what is going on. In fact in six books I don't think we've ever seen him panic under duress or not stand up for himself. (Even in the pensieve scene he doesn't take James and Sirius' abuse lying down...okay admittedly he's up in the air but he doesn't quail does he?) I mean, he's pathetic in the sense that he is a grown man who gets his jollies off torturing little children, but as many have argued on this very list, that probably has more to do with his teaching style than anything else. But broken? I don't see that. I can just picture him coming over to DD's side during the first war, head held high and not looking back and not caring if he's judged. He's a forceful personality, I can't ever picture Snape being broken. Meri From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 20:39:00 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:39:00 -0000 Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139224 > >>Neri: > So you are basically saying that there are no romantic overtones in > this chapter, only some innocent drama, and all the rest is in my > dirty mind . > Betsy Hp: Yup! Not that you're alone. The Snape/Narcissa fanfic and fanart are pouring out everywhere. (Not coming close to the Harry/Draco stuff of course.) However, within the context of canon I don't think this scene showed Snape and Narcissa as two hearts beating as one. (Book 7 may well prove me wrong, but for the time, here I stand. ) > >>Neri: > > Snape's hand twitching shows that he's fully aware how critical > this Vow is. Such a sacrifice and such a commitment for Narcissa > make no sense. Unless Snape objective is to win Narcissa'a love, > in which case the bigger the sacrifice and the bigger the > commitment ? the bigger are Snape's chances. Betsy Hp: I do agree that a mad passion for Narcissa might have motivated Snape taking the Vow. But there are a plethora of other theories as well. And since I really didn't see Snape expressing any mad passion for Narcissa (or any hints thereof) leading up to the Vow it's hard for me to accept that particular theory as the correct one. > >>Neri: > I'm not familiar with any canon about a "right neighborhood" where > single Wizarding pureblood aristocracy live. > Betsy Hp: "He lives here?" asked Bella in a voice of contempt. "*Here*? In this Muggle dunghill?" (HBP p.20) Apparently if there is a "right" neighborhood (and there's *always* a "right" neighborhood) Snape has chosen to settle very, very far from it. Also, note that Bella said "lives here" not "hiding out here" or anything else suggesting this is not Snape's usual place of residence (while not teaching of course). > >>Neri: > That still hardly explains why Dumbledore believes this "remorse" > is so strong that it makes Snape risk everything for the Order > today, fifteen years after the fact. > Betsy Hp: My guess is because Dumbledore believed Snape's remorse to be genuine. And a genuine feeling that your mistake caused the death of maybe your only true friend would be a thousand times more binding than any magic vow or debt. (That love thing again. Don't make me quote the Princess Bride! ) > >>Neri: > (BTW, regarding Snape's acting ability, "remorse" is precisely the > word he uses in order to describe to Bella how he had deceived > Dumbledore. "I spun him a tale of deepest remorse" he says without > any sign of emotion. So does this mean he can't be feeling deeply > about this remorse? And if he can, might he also be able to hide > passion behind blank face?) Betsy Hp: No. Completely different things. One is a well prepared lie with probably a few grains of truth to wrap it around. Another is an overwhelming feeling that overrides comman sense and binds you into an Unbreakable Vow you'd have otherwise avoided. Snape is passionate, but I'll bet he's also a hell of a poker player. > >>Neri: > And I also think that all this "Dumbledore can't tell Harry about > Snape and Lily because Harry will never understand" was overplayed > by the LOLLIPOPS crew. > [also, I edited out the hyphens for formatting reasons - Betsy] Betsy Hp: Not by me! Because while I think the reveal will be Bang-y for Harry, I think Dumbledore kept it a secret for Snape's sake. It's private. And Dumbledore, generally, respects a persons privacy. (He tells Harry to keep his knowledge about Neville's parents to himself in GoF, IIRC.) > >>Neri: > > Snape points a wand between Sirius' eyes and whispers "Give me a > reason. Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will". He says > it twice so there won't be any doubt. Now what could he mean > by "give me a reason"? The man betrayed the woman Snape love to > her death, didn't he? What "reason" is Snape looking for? This is > Snape during his greatest rage explosion in the series and he > can't control his emotions, right? > Betsy Hp: Oh, this was definitely Snape quite ready to kill Sirius for everything he had done. (I totally agree that Snape holds Sirius in the utmost contempt. From Snape's POV Sirius was a coward and a fool.) However, Snape is not a murderer (or at least, can't appear as one to Dumbledore) so he wasn't about to cold-blood off the man. But if Sirius gave him a reason... (I'm *positive* YMV on this one .) > >>Neri: > > Let's accept the sad fact: LOLLIPOPS might seem like very > attractive plotting to us, but it has about zero canon to support > it, and a lot against it. Betsy Hp: It's all about the plotting, I agree. Little canon support, yes. But canon *against* it? Where? > >>Neri: > Sirius, James and Lily (and now also Dumbledore) were all safely > disposed of before the climax. Betsy Hp: Who's to say Snape's part of the tale won't get wrapped up before the climax of book 7? Anything that's not specific to Harry *should* be wrapped up before the big finale. Frankly, if it doesn't involve Harry it probably shouldn't even be in book 7 at all. Which is why I have a problem with ACID POPS. Betsy Hp who edited rather ruthlessly, yay! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 20:39:20 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:39:20 -0000 Subject: Unravelling Rabastan Lestrange (Was: R.A.B possibility) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139225 Brodeur (martyb1130 at a...) wrote: > I was rereading the OOTP and on page 114 in the American version it states "Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch Junior," said Sirius "Rodolphus's brother, Rabastan, was with > them too." Do you possibly think that this Rabastan character is RAB? It is possible that this is what Lord Voldy called him, due to the fact that his name is rather long... Perhaps the first three letters do stand for the RAB that was left with the horcrux... Carol responds: Considering that Rabastan was one of the four loyal DEs who went after the Longbottoms and tortured them into insanity in a futile attempt to find out what happened to their master and afterwards showed up at the MoM to help retrieve the Prophecy for Voldemort, I don't think he's R.A.B., who stole Voldemort's Horcrux, intending to destroy it and make Voldemort mortal (evidently he didn't know there was more than one) and fully expecting to die. Regulus Black fits the circumstances better. We know that Regulus wanted out and was killed by DEs--or at least we think we know that (I'll grant that Sirius didn't witness his death and is not always a reliable source of information, but I think he's misjudging his brother rather than getting the fact of his death wrong). We know that Sirius is right about Rabastan being arrested and sent to Azkaban along with Rodolphus, Bellatrix, and Barty Crouch, Jr., because we see him at his sentencing in GoF. Both brothers are described but we're not told which is which. They seem to be older than Barty Jr., who is described as a boy of about nineteen while they are identified as men. (I'm guessing that Rabastan is the thick-set man who stares blankly at Crouch rather than the thinner, nervous-looking man whose eyes dart around looking at the crowd, 594, but of course I can't be sure.) Bellatrix would be about twenty-five in this scene; the Lestrange brothers would be around her age or a bit older, though no older than Lucius Malfoy (who would have been about twenty-eight at the time) based on their membership in the Slytherin gang that Sirius mentions in OoP. (Odd that the descriptions make them both seem much older than Barty, Jr.) At any rate, subsequent events, as well as Bellatrix's words at the sentencing ("We alone were faithful," etc.), indicate that none of them was innocent of the charges against them. Rabastan, if he's the thick-set one, seems dully resigned to his fate, unlike the still-defiant Bellatrix. We also know that Rabastan was one of the DEs who escaped from Azkaban, joined Lucius Malfoy in attempting to retrieve the Prophecy, and was arrested with him and sent back to Azkaban, where he's presumably enjoying better conditions than during his previous imprisonment. I've always wondered how he and the others managed to escape death from despair or total insanity from the Dementors (contrast Barty, Jr., who would have died there if his father hadn't yielded to his dying wife's pleas). Maybe Rabastan was already insane in the same way Bellatrix is insane--fanatical loyalty to Voldemort and pleasure in inflicting pain (necessary to the successful casting of a Crucio, especially a prolonged Crucio). Even young Barty was already insane in that way, as we see from subsequent events, but unlike the others, he resisted being hauled away by the Dementors and was ready prey for them. (How ironic that he finally meets the fate he dreaded twelve years later--the DADA curse strikes again.) Or maybe Rabastan was like Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle, following his brother and sister-in-law into evil and too weak and stupid to pull himself out again (as Crabbe and Goyle might have followed Draco if he'd let them in on his secret). Yet the fact that Rabastan helped perform one of the most heinous crimes of VW1 suggests that on some level he's capable of mindless cruelty--maybe not the same delight in inflicting pain that makes Bellatrix such a Crucio aficionado and expert, but something beyond the casual cruelty of the DE who Crucio'd Harry in HBP. At any rate, I've always wondered why Rabastan was brought into the plot at all. He's guilty, along with his brother, sister-in-law, and Barty, Jr., of what may be the most horrible crime in the HP books--torturing the Longbottoms into insanity. Yet Voldemort (in the graveyard scene) speaks of "the Lestranges," his most loyal followers, as a married couple, not as a couple and the husband's brother. It's as if Rabastan is an invisible follower, not so much of Voldemort as of his (presumably older) brother and his brother's wife. I had hoped to discover something more in HBP tying Rabastan and Rodolphus to the contrasting-brothers motif (Albus and Aberforth Dumbledore, Regulus and Sirius Black, Percy and every other Weasley boy). But Rabastan Lestrange is likely to remain as peripheral as, say, Mulciber, who specialized in the Imperius Curse and also survived thirteen years in Azkaban to fight at the MoM and be sent back again but about whom we know virtually nothing else. My (uncanonical) view of Rabastan is that left to himself, he might have been less cruel than Bellatrix Black Lestrange or Antonin Dolohov (who seems to me the cruelest Death Eater we've seen so far), but he seems at a loss to do anything other than attach himself like a leech to Rodolphus and the once-beautiful Bellatrix and do what they do. Rabastan must have found within himself the sadistic cruelty, or at least the cold indifference to human suffering, necessary to cast a successful and sustained Crucio on the Longbottoms. Maybe that was the only way he could gain the approval of Rodolphus and Bellatrix (especially Bellatrix, whom we know to be a psychotic fanatic). At the MoM, Rabastan is originally assigned by Malfoy to be Crabbe's partner OoP 788), but when Crabbe (apparently) gets caught in the Time Turner, Rabastan (apparently) goes back to following Bellatrix, who shows up later with two others behind her (796), strongly indicating to me that Rabastan has again become part of Team Bellatrix. Maybe he's in love with his brother's wife, but more likely he follows her with the same blind loyalty she gives to Voldemort. At any rate, I *definitely* don't think that Rabastan is R.A.B. I do want to know why he's in the books since his role so far seems utterly expendable. I keep telling myself that JKR doesn't introduce characters for no reason. And then I remember Mark Evans. :-( Carol, under no delusions that Rabastan is a good guy but still curious about him, if only to understand what motivates the Death Eaters and to see them as something more than cardboard shadow figures From fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se Wed Aug 31 20:17:26 2005 From: fabian.peng-karrholm at chalmers.se (Fabian Peng Krrholm) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:17:26 +0200 Subject: Nagini as Horcrux In-Reply-To: References: <1125135680.820.14540.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <43161056.6050501@chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 139226 >nicholas dean wrote: Also; it was a spur-of-the-moment thing because > Frank intruded on Voldemort at the Riddle House; can one > retrospectively use a murder to create a Horcrux? I think you can, it doesn't seem like you actually have to commit murder of the first degree, since Tom Riddle uses the basilisk to kill Myrtle, and then he creates his first horcrux, the diary. So just some act of evil that causes the killing of people seems enough. /Fabian From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 21:05:25 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:05:25 -0000 Subject: Lily, James and Snape (was:ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape...) In-Reply-To: <20050830225236.83678.qmail@web30110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139227 > >>Merylanna: > > James/Lily in that scene to me was JKR Flirt 101 - Lily no more > hated James there than Ron hated Hermoine when she went to the > Yule ball with Krum. > Betsy Hp: This is why I prefer to think that Snape and Lily were just really good friends. Because I agree that Lily seemed a little *too* interested in James in this scene. And I think that their love is meant to be genuine and deep. Which would leave poor Snape out in the cold, and also give possible rise to obsessive stalking like behavior which wouldn't have gotten past Dumbledore, IMO. One thing that occurs in this pensieve scene that points, IMO, to a possible friendship between Lily and Snape is Lily's reaction to Snape calling her a mudblood. "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" Lily blinked. "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, *Snivellus*." (OotP scholastic hardback p.648) Lily reacted rather strongly to what should have been a normal response from "soon to be a Death Eater" Snape. If you put Draco and Hermione in this scene I think Hermione would have been less than surprised at the slur. I think she'd actually expect it. But Lily *does* seem taken aback at this reaction, which leads me to believe that she was used to slightly different treatment from Snape. > >>Merylanna: > > I think Snape/Dumbledore had the whole mind Draco/dead > Dumbledore/re-join LV/help-Harry-like-this conversation then. > Narcissa and Bellatrix just presented an idea that cost Snape > nothing and shut down Bellatrix. He was basically revowing. > > But I think Spinner's End was ALL about Bellatrix for Snape. > She's one loose cannon. She was the reason he enacted (re- > enacted, I strongly suspect) the UV. > Betsy Hp: *slips an I agree in on the heels of the other part of the post* Good theory! I like it. Betsy Hp From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Aug 31 21:12:58 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:12:58 -0000 Subject: The Gleam! The Gleam! In-Reply-To: <63378ee70508311135574eae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139228 > > I'd say the exact opposite, actually. Whatever charm existed for Harry is > now in Voldemort's blood, but it won't protect him. In fact, it may very > well only work for Harry and have the adverse affect on Lily's killer, maybe > even weakening him in some way. This harkens back to the theory I've seen in > places that the mysterious work Lily and James had been doing maybe has > something to do with love magic. > > - Lady Indigo > Of which the result was Harry? (;D) No, seriously. I haven't been able to run down the theory in question, but it may well be that, over and above Lily's death to protect him, something going on with/between his parents has imbued Harry with some magical quality that protects him. I just don't recall seeing any suggestion of this in the canon. It's true that children who come from loving homes are better equipped for life than those who don't. --Gatta From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 31 21:43:12 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:43:12 -0000 Subject: Simultaneous Spell Casting (was Re: Snape didn't kill DD with AK!! And here's t In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139229 --- I previously wrote: >> When Pettigrew faked his death, we are given to understand >> that he did three things almost simultaneously: >> >> 1) Cut off his finger, >> 2) Blasted open the street, and >> 3) Assumed his rat form. --- phoenixgod2000 replied: > I think you are assuming certain facts. We don't know when > wormtail cut off his finger. He could have blasted the street, > turned into rat and slipped away to chew off his finger later. > Or he could have used his wand to cut off his finger at a > later point.... And if you're right and he did he is a far > better wizard than anyone ever gave him credit for. I'm assuming that Sirius was correct in saying that Peter cut off his finger before transforming (see Finwitch's post for the PoA reference), because (i) Peter doesn't deny it and (ii) it fits the other facts we know without additional assumptions. The "chewed off" theory assumes that a rat could actually chew off its own finger, and that a digit chewed off while in animagus form would revert to human form. The "sneaked back" theory assumes that Peter had time to return to the scene, transform back to a human, cut off his finger, transform back to a rat, and disappear again, all without detection either by the Muggle witnesses or the MoM personnel who supposedly arrived on the scene shortly thereafter (quickly enough that Sirius had no opportunity to recover from his shock and depart). Even if you dispute the simultaneity of steps (1) and (2) above, moreover, you cannot seriously disagree that (2) and (3) must have been essentially simultaneous: If not, the eyewitnesses would not have believed that the apparent blast from Sirius's wand had killed Peter. But Peter's ability to manage the transformation at the same time he was blowing up the street is itself a sufficient warrant for a relatively mediocre wizard's ability to perform simultaneous magic (albeit in one case wandless). And, given the degree of difficulty we are told that the animagus transformation entails, it is hardly inconceivable that a more talented wizard might be able to control an even greater number of separate magical incidents at one time). -- Matt From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 21:49:02 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:49:02 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139230 > zgirnius: We're saying at this > point, we would suggest you owe your boss a simple, dignified > apology. *ONLY* for having peeked at her papers, not for the contents > thereof. Along the lines of, "I > get that you do not like my father. As far as I am concerned, that's > between you and him. I hope that in the future we can work together > as professionals." Alla: Oh, but that is not what Lady Indigo was saying at least how I read her argument. You don't insist that Harry somehow owes Snape for actions of his father, right? The idea that Harry somehow is obligated to tell Snape that he was right about James after Snape degrated Harry's dead father over and over again when he had no right to do so in the first place is the one I take exception to. I don't think that on the theoretical level anybody would object that Harry owed Snape an apology after Pensieve accident for LOOKING into pensieve only , definitely not me. I am starting talk in circles, but I am going to say it again - I just do not think it is realistic at all to expect Harry who grew up being bullied to think that apology would change anything and there was nobody whom he could learn from otherwise. I also still believe that despite what I said above, such apology may have happened but for Snape throwing Harry out and then just timing was wrong - Snape was avoding him Sirius dead, etc, etc. And definitely in book 6 Harry had a lot of other things on his mind. Actually Sandy's post 139219 expresses my feelings perfectly. JMO, Alla. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 31 21:50:01 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:50:01 -0000 Subject: It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139231 --- Finwitch wrote: > Considering that Snape told the Black Sisters he had > given Voldemort information that led to Sirius' death as > well as that of Emmeline Vance... he might have lied about > nearly all else, but NOT on that. > ........ > Dumbledore believed Kreacher did it .... > I'd say that Snape framed Kreacher - even as Tom Riddle > framed Morfin. So are you hypothesizing that Snape modified Kreacher's memory? Dumbledore says that he needed to use Legilimency to get the story out of Kreacher, but I guess the hypothesis would also include Dumbledore failing to detect the memory modification. (Sorry, just catching up with this.) -- Matt From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 22:14:14 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:14:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quick_silver71" wrote: > "Steve" wrote: > > ... If it had been me, I would be researching Dark Arts and > > Anti-Dark Arts with every free minute of time. ...He has a set of > > Defense Against Dark Art Encyclopedias ... given to him ... by > > Sirius and Remus. ..., he would have done much better to study > > and practice from his Defense Against Dark Arts book set. > quick_silver71: > > Would they teach him what he needs to know or what he thinks that he > needs to know. ... there is more to fighting Voldemort then throwing > out spells. > bboyminn: Yet when the final showdown comes, 'throwing out spells' is exactly what Harry is going to have to do. It's entirely possible that Voldemort won't be alone when Harry comes to him, and that means fighting his way through a horde of DE's before he can even get to Voldemort. Harry's knowledge of spells and his ability to cast them is going to be critical in the end. Certainly not THE critical factor, but critical none the less, you can't defeat the enemy unless you can get to him. > quick_silver71: > > Harry is already a good dueler. bboyminn: I'm not sure where you get this. Harry's dueling skill has never been more than adequate. At best, he as stumbled through each duel with a bit of luck and little more. In his duels with Draco, Harry has just scraped by with luck. Draco and Harry are about an equal match, although in the duel in the bathroom in HBP, Draco seems to have the upper hand until Harry cast the 'Sectumsempra'. Of course, Harry was on target so regardless of what curse he cast he would have had the advantage, but let's not forget that up until that point Draco was standing and Harry was on the floor stuggling. In his duel with Voldemort at the end of GoF, again Harry is hopelessly outclassed. It was only by a stroke of luck that Harry and Voldemort cast curses at the same time and invoked the 'Brother Wand' effect. And I will remind everyone again, that Harry and Voldemort will have no trouble exchanging curses with each other. The 'Brother Wand' effect only comes into play under a very precise set of circumstances; both casters have to cast at the same instant, and the curses have to meet head-on and collide with each others. Any other circumstances are just plain dueling, the 'Brother Wand' effect doesn't come into play. So, my point is that Harry didn't prevail by his superior dueling skills, he prevail by shear dumb luck. In the duel or fight at the Ministy, it's clear that Harry is out manned, out classed, and out gunned, and would have surely lost except for shear luck and the arrival of the Order. > quick_silver71: > > He loses to Snape at the end of HBP because Snape is deploying > everything he has against Harry...his non-verbal skills and his > Legilimency. ... bboyminn: I don't see Snape 'deploying everything'. Using everything - yes, but 'deploying everything' in the context you imply - no. What I see Snape doing is defeating Harry at every turn and he does so easily. Snape has higher priorities, saving Draco and getting the heck out of there; Harry is more like an annoying tedious fly that is bothering Snape. Snape's superiority over Harry seems easy and effortless to me. > quick_silver71: > > It will be when Harry learns either more non-verbal magic or how to > block his mind that he will be a match for Snape > ... bboyminn: And that is pretty much what I said. Harry NEEDS to practice his non-verbal skill but he isn't. Harry needs to practice his Occlumency but he's not. He needs to refine his fighting skill, but he's not. He need to learn more complex and powerful curses, both offensive and defensive, but he's not. The poor boy can't relie on pure dumb luck forever. To many battles were lost, though some were won, because a Commander shrugged his shoulders and said, who knows maybe we'll get lucky. > > bboyminn orginally said: > > > > Look at how easily Dumbledore manuvered though the maze of > > enchantments in the cave, would it have killed him to explain to > > Harry... > quick_silver71: > > Yet J.K. has said that Dumbledore was mainly self-taught. Perhaps he > takes the view that Harry must learn these things on his own. > Despite finding Snape's copy of Advanced Potion-Making Harry showed > no willingness to expand upon it. Rather then find his own way Harry > stole another's...perhaps Dumbledore is discouraging that? > > Quick Silver bboyminn: Not familiar with that quote but it seems more than reasonable. BUT... Dumbledore was ALWAYS an outstanding wizard and he has had 150 years of experience. Harry has been a just above average student and gets one more year and nothing more. He can't possibly hope to learn enough to defeat Voldemort, or at least, enough to fight his way to Voldemort without MUCH MORE practice. I will agree however that it's not all about dueling and curses. But none the less, Harry can't go after Voldemort completely unprepared. He has to have fast reflexes, he has to have a reasonable complement of spells that not only does he know, but that he is proficient at, he has to be able to defend and protect himself as well as attack his enemies, and while damn lucky, his is currently ill-prepared to do that. At least that's how I see it. Steve/bboyminn From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 31 22:13:37 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:13:37 -0000 Subject: Timing & the Dada position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139233 --- Denya wrote: > > I was just re-reading the first 3 chapters of HBP, and the > timing of the UV struck me. > > .......... > > At [the time of Chapter 2: Spinner's End], Dumbledore has > already injured his hand, recovered the ring horcrux, and > made the decision to put Snape in the Dada position (as > he's inviting Slughorn back), thus guaranteeing that Snape > will leave Hogwarts at some point in the coming year. > > That timing seems to limit the options considerably > vis-?-vis Snape being fooled into, or tricked into, or > beguiled-by-blue-eyes into the UV. I have to disagree with the premise that Dumbledore had told Snape he was getting the Dark Arts job. Unless Chapter 2 occurs after Chapter 3 (and I agree with you that they are written as happening more or less contemporaneously), Dumbledore does not have an acceptance from Slughorn yet. I think it unlikely that he would have offered Snape the Dark Arts position before getting Slughorn on board -- he would need to keep his options open for finding another teacher, which could require a different rejuggling of the staff. Moreover, as aussie notes, Snape specifically points out to Narcissa and Bellatrix that Dumbledore has never allowed him to teach Defense. While many of the statements Snape makes in that scene may be suspect, that one pretty clearly indicates that Snape does not know he will get the Dark Arts position. It would have been self-defeating in the extreme for Snape to try to convince the sisters that Dumbledore mistrusts him (and that they, therefore, should trust him) by making a statement that would be proven false only a few weeks later. -- Matt From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 31 22:17:46 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:17:46 -0000 Subject: The Gleam! The Gleam! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139234 Susan: > Pippin, I'm afraid I need more... from you or from others who agree > with your view. > Pippin: Dumbledore had some plan which involved Snape going back to the DE's. We know that from, "If you are prepared..." We spent the interval between GoF and HBP thinking of excuses Snape could offer to LV, and we got most of them. But clever as they might be, they wouldn't work if Voldemort was so angry about Snape's defending Harry during first year that he wouldn't even listen to Snape's excuses and just AK'd Snape on the spot. Dumbledore must have feared as much... until he learned that Voldemort had used Harry's blood. That explains the gleam of triumph -- and the immediate return to weary and old. It's still a very dangerous plan, and likely to end in more than one death. It's by no means certain that Voldemort will accept Snape's excuses, but at least he might survive long enough to offer them. And if Dumbledore can just get Voldemort to take Snape back... We know that Snape was supposed to spy, but I'm thinking there must be more to the plan than that. The list has pretty much concluded that even when all the horseclucks are destroyed, Harry's odds in a fight against Voldemort aren't much better than Neville's. Wouldn't it be dead useful, in fact necessary, to have someone close to Voldemort who would die to defend Harry and can fight like an angry buzz saw? To weaken Voldemort enough so that Harry can finish him? Of course there are other Order members who would be willing to engage Voldemort -- but they can't get close enough. And even if they could, how many of them are strong enough to resist Voldemort's Imperius curse? That's the plan, methinks. Dumbledore wasn't planning to die to make it happen. But if he saw that death was inevitable and there was a chance to make it useful, I think he'd go for it. Dumbledore knows that Voldemort never believes anybody is on his side. But at least now he'll be sure that Snape wasn't on Dumbledore's side or Harry's. Pippin From pipes814 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 17:42:42 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:42:42 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and Elizabeth Bennet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139235 Mimbeltonia wrote: > > Yes, I think that Harry, as well as the readers, are supposed to have > all their prejudices against Severus Snape confirmed and strengthened > by the HBP, and that there is a certain paralell to Elisabeth/Darcy > in this. However I do not think it will go as far as to make Snape > the misunderstood hero of it all. Jamie: I'm quite sure Snape can never be described as a "misunderstood hero". [Pause here to enjoy silly vision of Snape kneeling before Harry, offering his apologies and proclaiming that he's loved him as a son all along.:-}] He's an awful person. All I meant is that perhaps Harry's prejudice is blinding him to the possibility that Snape has been working on DD's side all along.> > Mimbeltonia: > > I think they must work together towards the end, never as close > friends, but with some sort of understanding. Jamie: I hope so. I look forward to seeing these two try to get along. Maybe the Occlumency lessons were only a warm up. Jamie From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 22:35:02 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:35:02 -0000 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139236 > Alla: > > Oh, but that is not what Lady Indigo was saying at least how I read > her argument. You don't insist that Harry somehow owes Snape for > actions of his father, right? zgirnius: It's possible I am not 100% in agreement with her, yes...I think an aknowledgment that the Snape/James relationship is an issue for Snape is potentially constructive as an attempt to clear the air. (This can be done without any admission that Snape is "right", or James is "a bad person". The second is a proposition I find unlikely, anyway...) If Snape really is a totally evil person out to torment Harry for the fun of it, none of this really matters, but if it were the case that Snape is (very inappropriately) dumping on Harry because of his own issues with James, the apology combined with some "I'm not by father, darn it" reminder might have a chance of getting through. Moot point now, for sure! Alla wrote: > I am starting talk in circles, but I am going to say it again - I > just do not think it is realistic at all to expect Harry who grew up > being bullied to think that apology would change anything and there > was nobody whom he could learn from otherwise. > > I also still believe that despite what I said above, such apology > may have happened but for Snape throwing Harry out and then just > timing was wrong - Snape was avoding him Sirius dead, etc, etc. And > definitely in book 6 Harry had a lot of other things on his mind. zgirnius: Oh, I agree with you here. I think these are excellent explanations for why Harry, even though he is a fundamentally very good and fair and empathetic person, did not make the apology. Both because of his life experiences with the Dursleys, and how things have played out since. I certainly do not mean to condemn him for not apologizing! elsewhere in this thread (post 139222)... Pippin wrote: It's interesting that the question of apologizing comes up in the pensieve memory itself. IIRC, James demands that Snape apologize to Evans, and Evans says she doesn't want *James* to make Snape apologize. It does sound though as if she would have accepted an apology from Snape. Is that Snape's great regret? That he could have apologized to her and never did? Should he have done so, though he would have lost face in front of the Marauders? zgirnius: Oh, I really liked this observation! Yes, of course he ought to have. Yet another reason he hates this memory... From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 22:45:37 2005 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:45:37 -0000 Subject: Broken, Pathetic Snape////Was:Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139237 Sandy: <> Wow, did I get you out of retirement? ;-) I'm stoked! Actually, I had kinda thought it was Lady.indigo who said (or at least implied) Snape was broken and pathetic, since she seemed to be arguing that the onus was on Harry to try to clear the air and begin to effect some healing (or at least try to) with Snape because Snape was too "stunted" emotionally to reach out...or something like that. But anyway, I didn't say that Snape was/is broken and pathetic (although I suspected the phrasing might push some buttons and chose not to refrain or rephrase; sorry 'bout that)--I said it would be lovely to see HARRY *re-interpret* Snape that way. (And he has adequate inspiration; everything he's been told as well as seen indicates that Snape is so hateful to Harry because of stuff that happened at the hands of irresponsible, idiotic minors (I was bullied too; now that I have grown up, I can't imagine retaliating against those bullies, much less their offspring! That's just dumb. IMO.), one of whom is dead and the other a wanted man with little hope of ever getting a real life.) How many grownups do *you* know who still harp incessantly on the ills done them in *high school*? (I must be getting old; it's been sooo long since then; who gives a rat's patootie now!) It would be a way Harry could take the "sting" out of having to deal with Snape without having to expect anything from Snape to help him do it. How would Snape react? Well, who the heck is he, really, anyway? Faced with a Harry who showed him nothing but outward respect and inward cool contempt or even indifference, if Snape is, as he seems, addicted to taking out his stale adolescent angst on Harry, he'd bait him harder and harder until he finally got a reaction he could punish and be smug about. If he's a true member of the Order, he might just consider Harry's new demeanor an improvement, a landmark in terms of Harry developing some control. That doesn't mean he'd stop baiting Harry necessarily, just that he might do it pro forma, for appearances. If he is both stunted emotionally and actually on a side other than Dumbledore's, I could easily imagine him being enraged by what he would be likely to perceive (correctly, to some degree) as Harry's arrogance in trying to move in some wise beyond Snape's reach. Oh, Wormtail, the man who chose to live in hiding as a rat (as opposed to Sirius, who subsisted in hiding on a diet of them; there's a neat little irony I'd missed or forgotten), is utterly pathetic. Not just broken. Very fragmented, downright crumbling. (But, like Gollum, not out of play entirely until "THE END".) Snape at least keeps a sturdy facade in play; we really don't know it's any more than that. Do you include the scene which terminates Harry's Occlumency lessons in this? That's a valid viewpoint, certainly, but it makes a lot of things look very different. No, he doesn't. (So how DID he get the name Snivellus; is that a nasty running (no pun int) joke about his "abnormally large nose," as Moony-of-the-Map put it?) I didn't mean "broken in spirit," anyway. I meant ...oh, now this IS interesting: "Broke/broken: To cause to separate into pieces suddenly or violently; smash." That would go with the notion of being *Sever*us. I like "To become unusable or inoperative: The television broke" better, though. While he's a forceful personality, there's no doubt, is there, that he's not a very functional human being in a social sense? You say "he is a grown man who gets his jollies off torturing little children" (did I miss a smiley emoticon there?) and yet object to the notion that he's broken? I'm confused. Sandy aka msbeadsley, remembering The Spy Who Came in From the Cold, and hoping anyone who decides to partake remembers to keep a Cheering Charm handy From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 31 23:09:01 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:09:01 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139238 --- lealess wrote: > I am suggesting that the Vow is its own agent, it cannot > be broken, it has a will of its own to completion. > > If the Vow made Dumbledore's death inevitable... then it > would be like the DADA curse: within the space of one year, > regardless of who was in the position, the curse worked to > fulfill itself and eliminate the professor. > > [snip] > > I guess what I am saying is that Snape made his choice when > he made the Vow, and after that, he was unable to make a > further choice about whether or not to complete Draco's > mission. The Vow, and the alignment of all the players in > the Astronomy Tower, negated Snape's will. I like the theory (and yes, you did express it clearly!), but would propose a minor amendment. Rather than depriving Snape of free will in his future actions, suppose that the Vow acts something like the Prophecy: without forcing individuals to act in any particular way, it sets in motion the circumstances that will induce them to *choose* to act that way. This theory works equally well with Evil Snape, Out for Himself Snape, and Loyal Snape, and could even add to the underpinnings of each of those theories. (Loyal Snape theorists, for instance, might see the Vow at work in Dumbledore's apparent fatalism toward the end of the book.) It also -- like Rowling's new explanation of the Prophecy in HBP -- more comfortably reconciles with the theme of choice and self-actualization that permeates all six books (which is not to say that other theories of the Vow cannot be reconciled with free will; after all, one needs to exercise free will to make the Vow in the first place). While we are on the subject, your legal analysis of Snape's Vow recalled to me two additional points that I had been thinking about in reading others' posts. 1) Is it possible that the third clause of the Vow was never operative at all, because Snape had not been told what the task was? Your reference to "meeting of the minds" in the context of a legal contract struck right at the point that has made me a bit unsure about the status of the Vow when I was first reading the book: What does a promise mean when the promiser does not know what he is promising? Given how things turned out, it seems a bit unlikely that the third clause was not in fact operative, but is it possible that Snape *believed* it would not be operative based on his own (mis)understanding of the workings of Unbreakable Vows? This might better explain his decision -- after some hesitation -- to agree to the Vow when he apparently did not know what was entailed. 2) Following up on that last point, a number of posters have recently hypothesized that Snape was somehow "trapped" when Narcissa came up with the unexpected request to fulfill the task (if necessary), in addition to aiding and protecting Draco. While I agree that Snape was surprised by the request, I don't see that he was trapped. He had already provided a perfectly plausible reason for declining essentially the same request earlier in their conversation: "When Snape said nothing, Narcissa seemed to lose what little self-restraint she still possessed. Standing up, she staggered to Snape and seized the front of his robes. Her face close to his, her tears falling onto his chest, she gasped, 'You could do it. You could do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course you would, and he would reward you beyond all of us ?-' Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking down into her tearstained face, he said slowly, 'He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first.'" Snape could have refused to sign on to the third clause of the Vow on largely the same grounds: "Narcissa, only Dark Lord can decide who will take up the task should Draco fail. I would dearly love to step in for Draco, and as I have said I hope and believe that the Dark Lord will instruct me to do it in the end, but until then I am bound to follow the instructions he has given me." I don't have any very good theory for why Snape changed his tune at the critical juncture. It did (and still does) seem awfully out of character for him to promise something without knowing what it would require (unless, as I speculated above, he thought that part of the Vow would not be binding). Maybe Narcissa did melt his cold cold heart.... -- Matt From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 23:15:14 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:15:14 -0000 Subject: Weaving the threads Snape spins (Was: Trelawney's Prediction/How like your fathe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139239 Potioncat wrote: Kneasy [once] suggested that Snape has long been aware of the bit of Voldy that resides in Harry. A bit that made him [Snape?] very uncomfortable. Snape may have arranged the Serpensortia spell to test Harry's Parseltongue ability; or at any rate, his [Harry's] speech [in Parseltongue] confirmed Snape's suspicions. Snape would be justified in his concern that Potter would have some evil potential. > And back to Snape's comment to Bella in "Spinner's End": " rumors that he himself was a great Dark wizard, which was how he had survived the Dark Lord's attack. Indeed, many of the Dark Lord's old followers thought Potter might be a standard around which we could all rally once more " > Back in PS/SS Snape would know the truth, but he would also know that his students believed this story. He would also know that Harry was a celebrity. I think his first class demonstrated to the Slytherins that Harry was not a powerful Dark wizard. (At least not yet.) And it makes a good point now with the Black sisters. After all, Lucius had probably suggested Draco cozy up to Harry for this very reason. Not a bad idea, to be friends with the future Dark Lord. Narcissa would know it, even if Bella didn't. So his comments about it in Spinner's End would ring true. Carol: Good one, Potioncat! I love the idea that Snape in SS/PS isn't just making Harry look like a less-than-mediocre wizard to instill some un-Jameslike humility in him, that he's actually doing the Slytherin students and Harry a service by revealing that Harry isn't a junior Dark Lord capable (even in infancy) of defeating Voldemort through innate Dark Magic. That first Potions class is also the point at which Snape introduces the bezoar, which he must have guessed would later come in handy for Harry, to whom he specifically asks the question. That class gives us our first glimpse of Snape at work, and it's central to our interpretation of him (at least until Book 7). As you point out, the DEs' initial suspicion that Harry was a Dark Wizard, aside from providing Snape with a motive for not killing Harry that Bellatrix will accept, ties in neatly with Snape's using Serpensortia as a test of Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue. IOW, Snape was may still have been testing Harry to see whether he was indeed mediocre or whether, despite appearances, he had Dark powers of his own. (Was he the Heir of Slytherin after all?) Snape undoubtedly reported the Parseltongue incident to Dumbledore, which could have led to DD's alternate explanation (to Snape and, later, to Harry) of some of LV's powers entering Harry at Godric's Hollow. (Parseltongue, Legilimency, and possession?) Despite the popularity of the Harry as Horcrux theory just now, I don't for a moment believe that any of LV's *soul* got into Harry. Snape, however, could believe (and fear) it despite his insistence on Harry's "mediocrity." Maybe that's what he was looking for in the Occlumency lessons and that's why he was so disturbed to find "that man and that room," not to mention the corridor in the MoM, in Harry's head. Nice weaving together of the threads that our ex-Potions master has spun, Potioncat! Carol, who accidentally typed "the Heri (Harry) of Slytherin"! From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Aug 31 23:24:42 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:24:42 -0000 Subject: Apologizing to Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139240 Meri: > I mean, he's pathetic in the sense that he > is a grown man who gets his jollies off torturing little children, houyhnhnm: Torturing? That's a bit excessive isn't it? I don't approve of the way Snape plays favorites or the fact that he crosses the line and gets personal with students, but I've had plenty of teachers like him. They weren't all bad and I certainly wouldn't call them torturers. I learned more in the classes of the teachers I hated than I did in the classess of "nice" (and frequently boring) teachers. This whole issue has gotten completely away from the discussion of a fictional work. It's just a bunch of people grinding their personal axes. From iam.kemper at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 23:38:26 2005 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:38:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Will the DEs die if Voldy does? (was: Harry's character development) In-Reply-To: References: <43154C7D.7020901@telus.net> Message-ID: <700201d4050831163826353195@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139241 KJ writes: > If, as I suspect, the Dark Mark will kill the DEs on Voldemort's > true death (can you see him allowing them to survive if he does > not?) Snape must in turn make the choice to die rather than allow > Voldemort to survive.... SSSusan intriuged: I am pulling out this tiny snippet of the post because it intrigues me. I'm curious what others think about this issue. HAS Voldy set things up such that (via the Dark Mark for instance), upon his death, all the DEs will die, too? It certainly sounds like the *kind* of thing Voldy might go for. ... Are you thinking that Voldy has set up this death connection... but that the DEs aren't aware of it? Kemper now: I can easily see Voldy being deceiptful with his DEs. But I don't think Voldy has the capacity to think that he will fail. He's been fighting against the idea of his mortality for sometime even before he placed the first Dark Mark on the first DE (by the by, who do you supose that person was?). For Voldy to place some Voldy-destroyed Destruct button on the Dark Mark, would mean that Voldy admits, even to himself, the possibility that he will/can fail. I don't see Voldy sabataging his own sense of Superiority. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rlai1977 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 21:50:15 2005 From: rlai1977 at yahoo.com (rlai1977) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:50:15 -0000 Subject: Draco and Sirius (was Re: Apologies and responsibility) In-Reply-To: <63378ee705083101273ff75c67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139243 - Lady Indigo said: > And while we're at it, and just so I'm talking about more than one thing on > this list, let's brush on this with a slightly less loaded character: > I don't like Draco at all. I think he's a one-dimensional pampered bragging > brat and I make no allowances for his behavior save that prejudices can > sometimes get passed on from the parents before kids even know the > implications - but Sirius shows that this doesn't have to happen and it can > definitely come down to just strength of character, which Malfoy doesn't > have. Snape is one of my favorite character, and Sirius I began to like a lot post-OOTP, so the fact that I am writing this at all is an indication of how much I disagree with you. Firstly, prejudices not only can 'sometimes', but 'very bloody often' get passed on from parents to their children. The kid almost have no chance at all to form an opinion that goes against that of their parents before he or she has become old enough to think independently, or to have been exposed to other opinions from sources they *have reasons to trust*, *especially*, when the kid loves his parents/has a good relationship with them. Have we *any* evidence from canon that Sirius ever had a pleasant relationship with his family, supposedly before he came to the conclusion they were all muggle-born-hating racists and thusly unlikeable? Wasn't it much more logical and easy for a kid to reject values that the parents he doesn't like hold? And don't forget Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, and whatever he and James bonded over (maybe the fact they were both the risk-loving sort), it required no "strength of character" to take on the values and beliefs a person you like holds. Then we come to Snape, who some people cut a much fatter slack for than they are willing for Draco because unlike materially-spoilt Malfoy, Snape had an unhappy home life and was bullied at school. I don't know where he got his blood prejudice from, but I just don't see how just because his life has had a much poorer childhood his prejudice was more forgivable than that of Draco. Do you suspect the mudblood slur was somehow beaten into his system? That he was punished whenever he voiced doubt about the blood inferiority belief? As for his turning into a bully while he himself was a victim of abused power as a kid, I find it a great weakness of his (like Draco's lack of independent thinking), for instead of fighting to NOT become people who have done him injustice, he chose to become similar to them- just with different victims. RP From merylanna at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 23:40:09 2005 From: merylanna at yahoo.com (Merry Kinsella) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050831234009.45178.qmail@web30114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139244 Neri: So you are basically saying that there are no romantic overtones in this chapter, only some innocent drama, and all the rest is in my dirty mind .<< Merylanna says: I'll answer and say yes, it is in your mind. because JKR's writing style is being ignored. If this were a bodice-ripper, then the language in the chapter would be romantic overtones 101. However, it's JKR who uses equally over the top language for virtually every confrontation she writes. How often has Snape's face been "less than a foot from Harry's" as he braced his arms on Harry's desk and leaned in less than a foot from Harry's face? The Sirius/Snape confrontation in the Grimmauld Place kitchen makes Narcissa/Snape look like absolute strangers - Sirius/Snape closer and closer til their faces are less than a foot apart (this is a favorite image of JKR's, and one of her favorite verbs is "twitch" or "twitched" so I always consider her writing style before I interpret meaning.) They've got their WANDS out for God's sake. Symbolism anyone? Snape and Sirius are that close and they whisper to each other. Come on boys! Kiss! You know you want to. Peter Pettigrew's self-abasement in front of Harry and LV make Narcissa look self-restrained in front of Snape. I'm not sure Pettigrew grabbed Harry's trouser cuff and kept begging as Harry tried to shake him off, but it was the general idea. When Snape caught Harry in the penseive, he grabbed Harry's forearm in a pincer-like grip and lifted him off the floor. Finally, he flung Harry from him, then exploded a jar of dead cockroaches over Harry's head. Thank the lord JKR stuck with "Harry" Potter and didn't switch to "Harriet" or I can read the fanfic now. JKR is very big on the histrionics in any confrontation, so no, there were no romantic implications from Narcissa to Snape, IMO. I'd seen the same kind of interaction repeated incessantly throughout the books, often with Snape as a player. Histrionics played on the level, played for humor - that's JKR. Weeping, wailing, roaring, bellowing, prostrating, leering, approaching, leaning, grabbing, bending over, etc. etc. Merrylanna From mimbeltonia at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 18:14:01 2005 From: mimbeltonia at yahoo.com (mimbeltonia) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:14:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139246 Rebecca: > ..maybe Snape used an alternative non-verbal spell to make > Dumbledore fly up in the air. > If this was a way out of killing D it certainly did't work as D fell > to his death at the foot of the tower. > I have to admit that this doesn't make sense, except for the fact > that it explains away the fact that the hold of D's petrifics totalis > spell doesn't break as D is AK'd, it doesn't break until D hits the > floor several seconds later. > > It is certainly odd, which ever way you look at it. I mean, Cedric > and Frank Bryce just fall to the floor. The fox and the spider just > die. They don't fly up in the air. I can't help thinking that JKR > doesn't tend to make mistakes, so there's likely to be a reason for > the difference in this case. Now Mimbeltonia: I see the reasoning - as well as the wishful thinking, I am sure ; ) behind this theory. However, I believe that Snape really AKs Dumbledore. The reason why the AK is so much stronger than in the case of Frank Bryce and Cedric Diggory, I believe to be the caster of the spell. Unlike Voldemort killing Bryce and Wormtail killing Diggory, Snape's action has no indifference to it. It is the most difficult thing he has done in his entire life, his is filled with anger, regret (IMO), determination and a lot of other feelings. He does it "at a run" and violently. The curse is so strong that Dombledore is not only killed, but thrown up into the air. As for Harry still being petrified: He is not, I believe. He is unable to scream ouy load and to move, but realises as the DEs depart that he is no longer held by Dumbledore's curse, but rather his own shock. > Rebecca > > Yeah, I wonder how much the portrait can tell her. The headmasters > and mistresses of Hogwarts are bound to help the current Head of > hogwarts - does that mean Dumbldore will have to tell McGonegal all > he knows? (presuming that he wakes up at some point). > Mibletonia now: I do not think the portraits convey information that the depicted person knew in his or her time. They only react much in the same way as they did when alive, repeat phrases etc. BUT: I'll be happy to find that I am wrong on both items! -mimbeltonia From auryn13 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 31 11:09:58 2005 From: auryn13 at hotmail.com (auryn1905) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:09:58 -0000 Subject: My doubts about Snape being Evil/ New in the group Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139249 Hi everyone, I am a new member of the group. I am just reading about what you say about Snape and I cannot believe that he is bad. I?ll explain myself: I think that if Snape is evil, it?s a very easy argument to be in a HP book, there has to be something more. I cannot think it?s so simple, perhaps it?s just sadness because Snape betrayed Dumbledore so deep but I think we have not seen the whole thing. Auryn From anezat at yahoo.com Wed Aug 31 20:34:28 2005 From: anezat at yahoo.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:34:28 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and Elizabeth Bennet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 139255 > Jamie wrote: > > From Harry's initial > > (and justified) dislike of Snape, he has been determined to think > > the worst of him no matter what, exactly like Lizzy in "Pride and > > Prejudice". Also, Snape's pride is comparable to Mr. Darcy's. > > p.s. I haven't read Emma(which most know is JKR's favorite Austen > > novel), are there eny connections there? Angela replies: I have to say that I don't really see any connection to Jane Austen other than these superficial characterizations. I think that many young people (and don't forget that Elizabeth Bennett was "not yet one and twenty" are headstrong and opinionated. Most of the young women in Jane Austen's novels have to learn to overcome some flaw in their character in order to come to maturity and marry. I, too, wanted to see some parallel between Jane and JKR as Jane Austen is one of my other literary loves (I have long belonged to JASNA). However, aside from Mrs. Norris (and the chance name of the young actress playing Hermione being Emma Watson - the name of the main character of the unfinished work "The Watsons") I don't see any other than the superficial, which could apply to any number of novels. Angela From lady.indigo at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 20:59:05 2005 From: lady.indigo at gmail.com (lady.indigo at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:59:05 -0400 Subject: Apologies and responsibility In-Reply-To: <00c201c5ae5e$69924680$673b79a5@pensive> References: <00c201c5ae5e$69924680$673b79a5@pensive> Message-ID: <63378ee705083113595efeb146@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 139256 THANK you, everyone. Most of the replies here are things I'd gladly consider. (Eggplant, for heaven's sake, can you please actually read what I wrote?) Sherry said: >> In the same way, Harry doesn't need to tell Snape that Snape was right about James. Again, we have only one memory of Snape's to go by. We don't know what happened between James and Snape after this. How do we know James never tried to apologize? Isn't it good enough that James saved Snape's life? Isn't it even remotely possible he could have tried a number of times to apologize to Snape in the years after the pensieve incident? We just don't know. << Lady Indigo said: Lupin said James continued to go after Severus long after he'd stopped bothering anyone else, if I remember correctly, and what Lily said confirmed that James also hexed *anyone* who happened to annoy him. Technically *I'm* still a teenager, and I still don't think that his actions can be excused in the name of immaturity. But you're right, Harry had no way of knowing any of this. And he wasn't really in the position to learn more, either. Alla said: >> Harry felt sorry for Snape, which I consider to be pretty big deal, again considering Snape's treatment of Harry all these years and I have no doubt that if Snape would not have threw him out, Harry would have told him just that. Just as he told Albus that he WAS sorry for looking in his Pensieve. << Lady Indigo said: Harry did feel sorry for Snape and I do think that's a big step in the right direction. I think it was wrong though expected for Snape to throw him out, especially as violently as he did, but of course if I were talking about what was to be expected I'd probably have conceeded to you all long ago. :) Dumbledore's an entirely different story. Of course Harry acknowledges the wrong he did to Dumbledore, because he respects Dumbledore. There's no high road to be taken there, there's nothing that has the chance of being smoothed over, because Dumbledore makes incredibly allowances for everyone's failings. With Snape, of course, it's more difficult, which is why everyone's arguing that it shouldn't/wouldn't have happened and why at the same time I think it would have been beneficial if it had, at the very least to Harry's maturity. Alla said: >> Who would have apologised to man who made his life hell for five years, even if the boy's actions were wrong, wrong, wrong? See, since I expect Harry to forgive Snape at the end, to me it would be action of the saint already and difficult enough to swallow. I would much prefer Harry NOT to behave like one till the end of the books at least. I much prefer normal teenager's reactions :-) << Lady Indigo said: Ahh, and here's where we're getting somewhere. Yes, Harry's not a saint and I actually really appreciate that about him. I don't see apologizing about the Pensieve, at least, as candidacy for sainthood though. (We seem to put different weight on it, and that's probably something we're going to get nowhere on in terms of agreeing.) It *was* wrong, after all, and I don't think who he did it to excuses him. But it would have been going beyond the call of duty, beyond the expected, while showing some major progress on two issues that really trouble me. There are only two things which bother me about Harry, who I otherwise love as a character: his anger, which continues to reach dangerous levels even when we're down to the last book, and his tendency to do a lot of rulebreaking without much remorse or learning from his mistakes. I'm not talking about necessary rulebreaking, like the SS/PS stuff, or rulebreaking to fight against unfair things, like going to Hogsmeade in PoA. I'm talking about looking in Dumbledore's Pensieve, apologizing, then going right back and doing it to Snape, and what I thought was the most disturbing thing: doing a slightly less malicious version of what Lockhart (who I believe someone here described as a sociopath) does by accepting the full credit, elevated status, and nifty prizes that come with cheating using the HBP's book. Harry saw no problem with his using the book, not even towards the end of things or after he was caught. The issue of him cheating was never resolved at all, and that continues to bug me. If Harry's progressed to doing the kind of thing that in the adult world would in some cases get you arrested, he has a lot to learn. Apologizing to Snape would have gotten him closer to learning it. And having that moment of soberness in which he could do it would mean he could safely temper his anger, too. Yes, it seems that won't be dealt with until the last book, and in light of the events of HBP perhaps it shouldn't, but it still bothers me, whether or not that's a failing of mine. I'd like to see Harry's growing up throughout the story consist of more than learning not to scream at his friends because they were doing what they thought was best for him. And I never said he needs to be especially grateful to Snape, or even grateful at all. What has Snape done for him, exactly, since saving his life during SS? lupinlore said: >> In these kinds of situations it's impossible, on the level of real and actual interaction, to abstract feelings and response from context. You can't talk, realistically and practically, about one person's guilt and actions without implying very strongly messages about the guilt, or lack thereof, of the other party. Once again, life just isn't that way and people just don't think or act that way. << Lady Indigo said: I think to a large degree that's true (in the very strong cases you listed, especially) but that in the case of the Pensieve it's a bit extreme. Snape and Harry don't equal Israel and Palestine. One invasion of privacy does not equal five years of emotional abuse, barely even calls it into play. Discussing it on its own merit - how clearly Harry was wrong there, how strongly this one wrong affected Snape - doesn't mean the rest has to even come up. If Snape takes it as an admission of blame for everything on Harry's part...well, that's Snape's issue, and Snape certainly twists everything that happens to his own perceptions. But Harry can decide what it means privately beforehand, and I have no doubt it'd involve a lot of inwardly thinking 'and now I'm completely right again, you bastard'. As for Harry's father and all of that mess, see below. sgirnius said: >> I think that an apology regarding this one incident (really a fairly unique case where Harry was in the wrong, IMO) would have also been a fine opportunity to confront Snape regarding their relationship all these years. Along the lines of, "I am sorry I peeked in your Pensieve, Sir. It was wrong of me to do so." Followed by "I understand that you and my father really did not get along. That is between the two of you. It need not affect our relationship." << Lady Indigo said: And you know, I think I'd gladly even let it be reduced to this. While "My father acted like a bully" is a simple fact Harry and Snape can agree on, I admit it's loaded and most people can't detach themselves enough to discuss it without that weight. What everyone seems to miss is the other half of that, which I don't think Harry should ever leave out: "You had problems with my dad. I am not my dad." This calls Snape out for his own immaturity, it puts things into the open air instead of letting them stew, and I think it's one of the biggest reasons I'm at all bothered by Harry's part in this. Harry coming of age means Harry beginning to handle things the way that adults would. - Lady Indigo