[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incidentg

[Nanagose at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 135943

>>bboyminn:
>>
>>First, we can't trust Snape's account of the incident because it is
>>highly biased. In fact, even Sirius's account is biased. Second, we
>>don't know what happened, so we can't be sure exactly what anyone's
>>intent was.

Christina:

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the most complete account of the 
"Incident" I can find is actually given by Lupin--in my opinion, the person 
most likely to give a mild, objective account.  This is what he says on the 
subject:

(PoA, end of Ch. 18)
"Severus was very interested in where I went every month," Lupin told Harry, 
Ron, and Hermione.  "We were in the same year, you knojw, and we--er--didn't 
like each other very much.  He especially disliked James.  Jealous, I think, of 
James's talent on the Quidditch field... anyway Snape had seen me crossing 
the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping 
Willow to transform.  Sirius thought it would be--er--amusing, to tell Snape all 
he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd 
be able to get in after me.  Well, of course, Snape tried it--if he'd got as 
far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown wereworlf--but your father, who'd 
heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great 
risk to his life...Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel.  He was 
forbidden by Dumbledore to tell anybody, but from that time on he knew what I 
was..."
(end quote)


>bboyminn:
>For example; Sirius could have said to Snape, don't go down to that
>tree, don't prode the knot with a stick, do not go inside the tunnel,
>and do not walk to the far end of the tunnel where you will surely
>find your death.

Christina:

It doesn't seem like it from what Lupin said, and I really doubt that he 
would slant the story *against* his friend.


>Valky now (rubbing her red raw cheek):
>Ouch! :-S 
>I have to defend that I think you have that entirely wrong Lisa. The
>prank couldn't fairly be called an attempted murder. I mean, look
>again. Sirius plays with that werewolf every month, it's his favourite
>past time. Does he think that a half competent wizard will survive an
>encounter with his friend Lupin.. *yes*, he *does*, he's *arrogant*,
>prideful, he thinks weekends with werewolves is something *everyone*
>should do to build character.

Christina:

Don't forget that Sirius did NOT hang around with werewolves in his *human* 
form.  He may be arrogant, but I have no doubt that he understood the gravity 
of Lupin's condition.  I think Sirius acted the way he does a lot of the time-- 
without thinking.  I also think it's important to note that James, who I saw 
to be the more arrogant Marauder in OotP, realized that Snape was in danger 
and risked his life to save him.  The fact that he went after Snape himself, 
instead of going and getting Dumbledore, implies that James immediately 
understood the danger Snape was in.

>bboyminn:
>But you don't
>convict people on intent, you convict them on actions, and Sirius's
>actions, in the example I created, gave him 'plausable deniability'. 

Christina:
Did Sirius give Snape explicit instructions on how to get to Lupin?  I think 
that Lupin's account is sound, especially given the fact Sirius and Snape both 
heard it and did not object to it.  So yes, he did.  Did Sirius know that 
Snape would find a fully-tranformed werewolf in the Shrieking Shack?  Yes, he 
did.  I don't believe that Sirius really *wanted* Snape to be hurt or killed (I 
think he just got angry at Snape and made an offhand comment in the heat of the 
moment), but the fact is, he was fully aware of what he was doing.  I do put 
part of the blame on Snape, because he *was* being nosy and did have free 
will; however, I think that the lion's share is on Sirius.  It really doesn't 
matter to me whether or not we can technically deem him a criminal-- I blame him 
for being reckless and highly irresponsible.  Sure, sometimes teenagers act 
this way, but Sirius should have been old enough to connect "Cause" and "Effect."

>bboyminn:
>I would think that if anyone had a right to
>be angry it was Lupin, who in my opinion, was both at the greatest
>risk of causing harm, but even more so, at the greatest risk of being
>harmed.

Christina:
We agree!  I think that Snape was in more physical danger, but Lupin had more 
of a right to be angry because Sirius was his friend.  Lupin trusted him with 
an extremely sensitive secret, and Sirius totally blew his trust.  If Snape 
had been injured or killed, Lupin would have that on his conscience for the 
rest of his life and probably wouldn't have ever forgiven himself.

> Saraquel says:  More significantly, why was Sirius allowed to stay 
> at Hogwarts and not expelled, what punishment did he recieve? If I 
> was Snape, knowing that someone had deliberately set out to either 
> kill me or at least make me into a werewolf for the rest of my life,
> I would be pretty pissed off if they were only given a detention. 

Christina:
AND he was forbidden to tell anyone about Lupin!  I don't think Snape was 
entirely innocent in this situation, but I can see him getting quite angry over 
the results.  I'm sure it only fueled the feud between Snape and Sirius.

>Lynn:
>After all, we know from the pensieve scene that he had overheard the 
Mauraders talking >about Lupin being a werewolf.  

Christina:
JKR has said that pensives are objective accounts of what has happened.  We 
also have to assume that pensive memories contain information that the person 
was not privvy to at the time the memory was created (which I think is a bit of 
a Pandora's box, but they're not my books).  Harry sees James doodling Lily's 
initials and a snitch on his OWL exam paper--there's no way Snape could have 
seen that from where he was sitting.  Therefore, while the Marauders did seem 
to use their *nicknames* fairly loosely, there is no evidence to suggest that 
Snape knew Lupin was a werewolf in advance.  Even besides that, we don't 
really have a clear timeline for the MWPP Hogwarts events.  The "incident" could 
have happened prior to the pensive memory (although I certainly would have been 
more careful taunting Snape if I knew he had a huge secret in his head 
concerning one of my best pals).


Christina


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