Harry and Ginny's romance: canon pros and cons (was SHIP: Where is the canon...)

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 135989

Grindiloe wrote:
"Okay, Harry and Ginny, the romance... I don't see why we need to SEE
exactly what happens between Harry and Ginny."

Del replies:
Why? Because it is in the WAY two people interact that you can
determine what kind of relationship they have and whether they are
happy together.

I'll be blunt: many beaten wives claim to be happy, they claim to have
a beautiful relationship (and very often they even *think* it), they
can have an apparently very intimate and loving marriage. Sometimes
they do show signs in public that something is not quite right, but
it's most often what happens when they are ALONE with their partner
that determines whether things are all right or not.

So in order to agree that Ginny is truly making Harry happier than he
would be without her, I need (among other things) to see how the two
are interacting when they are alone.

Grindieloe wrote:
"After all, in mature relationships, normally the intimate moments are
not completely shown to others.  It's what is not seen that builds the
intimacy between people."

Del replies:
I disagree. Both what we do in public and what we do in private builds
the intimacy between my husband and me.

Grindieloe wrote:
"With that being said, we have to remember that HP is a children's
series as well.  JK cannot possibly write the juicy details for us
when children are reading! The younger readers would be completely
turned off by too much of the overt romance."

Del replies:

1. I NEVER asked for juicy details. Never ever. And I definitely don't
want them.

2. Either Harry and Ginny are ONLY kissing and having sex, in which
case I don't consider their relationship to be deep and meaningful at all.
OR they do many other things that could perfectly be said in front of
little kids, in which case I'd like to see THAT.

Grindieloe wrote:
"She gave enough details for the older readers to be able to "read
between the lines""

Del replies:
No she didn't, or there wouldn't be so many of us complaining that we
can't even find the lines that we are supposed to read between!

Grindieloe wrote:
"2.  The first kiss and the (who knows how long) walk around the
grounds afterwards.  Can't we GUESS what is happening between them? 
We don't need to be shown that part.  It just isn't necessary."

Del replies:
If you want to play it that way... Here's one guess: Harry was so
happy to have won Ginny over that he let his hormones rage too much,
and forced Ginny to have sex with him even though she didn't really
want to. But because it was their first time for both, neither
realised that what happened was technically a rape, and Ginny thinks
it's the way it happens normally to every girl in love. 

If you think it's exxagerated, think again: it does happens to a lot
of kids.

And if you think it doesn't concur with the canon, then show me the
canon that says that it can't have happened. We keep hearing about how
Harry is so happy to be with Ginny, and we know that Ginny loves
Harry. So it COULD very well have happened.

Grindieloe wrote:
"3.  Harry daydreams about other times that he spent with Ginny by the
lake.  This lends the reader to believe that they are able to spend
time together canoodling. "

Del replies:
What's canoodling?
And yes *Harry* daydreams about that time. But what about Ginny?? We
do NOT know that SHE is remembering that time fondly. Maybe Harry
liked it so much because he got his way with Ginny.

Grindieloe wrote:
"4.  The mention of "less time together" when Ginny is studying for
her OWLS.  This makes me think that they had been spending much time
together."

Del replies:
Spending time together is not a sure sign of happiness. Abusive
spouses want their partner to spend all their time with them, that
doesn't mean that the relationship is healthy, nor that the partner is
happy.

Grindieloe wrote:
"5.  Ginny leaning against Harry's legs and relaxing. This shows true
comfort and intimacy.  Could you see Harry and Cho doing this!?  I
think not! Their relationship is progressing because they are becoming
more and more comfortable being together this way."

Del replies:
Abused partners do that all the time. It's a sign of intimacy for
sure, but not necessarily a sign of a wonderful, or even healthy,
relationship.

Grindieloe wrote:
"6.  Harry being yelled at by Hermione for "distracting" Ginny while 
she was studying."

Del replies:
Where is that one? I can't find it.

Grindieloe wrote:
"7.  Ginny kissing Harry goodnight.  It is mentioned casually which
leads me to believe that again, they are very intimate and comfortable
with each other.  "

Del replies:

1. It's not mentioned *that* casually: it's expressly pointed out that
Ron averts his eyes.

2. Most people kiss their partners good night, even when the
relationship is satisfying.

3. See below for counter-arguments that I found in that scene.

Grindieloe wrote:
"8.  Ginny is the only one that can lead Harry away from the body. He
 doesn't even know it is her until later."

Del replies:
So? I don't understand that one.

Grindieloe wrote:
"9. Ginny keeps nudging Harry during the funeral, showing a
connections between the two."

Del replies:
If it had been Hermione sitting next to Harry instead of Ginny, it
would have been Hermione nudging Harry. Not significant at all IMO.

Grindieloe wrote: 
"10.  Harry includes Ginny in thoughts and conversations that would
normally be reserved for only Hermione and Ron."

Del replies:
Examples?

Grindieloe wrote: 
"I see this as a true, real, intimate, wonderful relationship."

Del replies:
Well, of course it's a true, real, intimate relationship. Those two
are going out together!

But wonderful? I still ask to SEE that, not be TOLD about it.

Time for the counter-examples now.

1. The Kiss: not a word about Ginny, what she looks like after the
kiss, what she does, nothing.

2. Not a word about how Ginny feels about the relationship. She's
finally got the guy she's always wanted, and yet we don't hear a word
about how it makes her feel. And we are not told that it affects her
behaviour either.

3. When Harry sees the Dark Mark over the castle, and when he hears
that someone has been killed, his fears are equally shared between
Ron, Hermione and Ginny.

4. We don't get any indication that he's *particularly* afraid for
Ginny when he sees her being used as a practice target by a DE.

5. After Ginny takes him away from DD's body, he does not look for any
comfort from her. And they don't share any intimate kind of support in
the hospital wing either.

6. Ginny is not waiting for him when he comes back from McGonagall's
office, and he doesn't look for her.

7. Between DD's death and his burial, it is written that "Harry, Ron,
Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together." It says
ALL of their time. No indication whatsoever that Harry and Ginny spend
any time just the two of them together. Which makes the "it was too
hard to forgo his best source of comfort" fall extremely flat for me.
If Ginny is supposed to be an even better source of comfort than Ron
and Hermione, then why say that all four of them were always together?

8. "'She's not that bad,' said Harry. 'Ugly, though,' he added
hastily, as Ginny raised her eyebrows, and she let out a reluctant
giggle."

A BIG no-no for me, when someone doesn't feel free to say what they think.

9. Ginny goes to bed after stating that she hasn't slept that well
since DD's death, and Harry doesn't even get up to give her a private
good-night kiss or a comforting hug. Now *that* speaks tons to me.
Negatively unfortunately.

10. Percy is present at breakfast on the morning of DD's burial. We
are told that Ron pretends not to have noticed him, but nothing about
Ginny who is sitting right next to Harry.

11. At the same breakfast, Ginny gives Harry a nudge in the *ribs*.
That's unthinkable to me. If they are so physically comfortable with
each other, then there are hundreds of much nicer ways to attract his
attention.

12. When they go to be seated for the funeral, it is written that
"Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny filed into seats at the end of a row
beside the lake". Ginny is included in the Quatuor, she and Harry are
not singled out as a couple. The order of the names doesn't even
reflect the seating arrangement, since apparently, from what I
understand, Harry is a the end of the row, with Ginny next to him, and
then Ron&Hermione. 

13. It is specified that Tonks and Lupin are holding hands, but no
such specification for Harry and Ginny.

14. If Ginny and Harry were holding hands, Ginny wouldn't need to
whisper in Harry's ear or to nudge him to attract his attention.

15. When Harry starts to cry, he looks away from Ginny and the others.
That does NOT speak of emotional intimacy to me. Contrast this with
Ron holding Hermione and stroking her hair (something we never saw
Harry do with Ginny), while openly crying at the same time.

16. The Parting Scene. Let me copy it.

"Ginny was no longer crying. She met Harry's gaze with the same hard,
blazing look that he had seen when she had hugged him after winning
the Quidditch Cup in his absence, and he knew that at that moment they
understood each other perfectly, and that when he told her what he was
going to do now, she would not say 'Be careful', or 'Don't do it,' but
accept his decision, because she would not have expected less of him.
And so he steeled himself to say what he had known he must say ever
since DD had died.

'Ginny, listen...' he said very quietly, as the buzz of conversation
grew louder around them and people began to get to their feet. 'I
can't be involved with you anymore. We've got to stop seeing each
other. We can't be together.'

She said, with an oddly twisted smile, 'It's for some stupid, noble
reason, isn't it?'

'It's been like... like something out of someone else's life, these
last few weeks with you,' said Harry. 'But I can't... we can't... I've
got things to do alone now.'

She did not cry, she simply looked at him.

'Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to. He's already used you
as bait once, and that was just because you're my best friend's
sister. Think how much danger you'll be in if we keep this up. He'll
know, he'll find out. He'll try and get to me through you.'

'What if I don't care?' said Ginny fiercely.

'I care,' said Harry. 'How do you think I'd feel if this was your
funeral... and it was my fault...'

She looked away from him, over the lake.

'I never really gave up on you,' she said. 'Not really. I always
hoped... Hermione told me to get on with life, maybe go out with some
other people, relax a bit around you, because I never used to be able
to talk if you were in the room, remember? And she thought you might
take a bit more notice if I was a bit more - myself.'

'Smart girl, that Hermione,' said Harry, trying to smile. 'I just wish
I'd asked you sooner. We could've had ages... months... years maybe...'

'But you've been too busy saving the wizarding world,' said Ginny,
half-laughing. 'Well... I can't say I'm surprised. I knew this would
happen in the end. I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were
hunting Voldemort. Maybe that's why I like you so much.'

Harry could not bear to hear these things, nor did he think his
resolution would hold if he remained sitting beside her. Ron, he saw,
was now holding Hermione and stroking her hair while she sobbed into
his shoulder, tears dripping from the end of his own long nose. With a
miserable gesture, Harry got up, turned his back on Ginny and on DD's
tomb and walked away around the lake."

Ok, there are SO many things wrong in this scene that I don't even
know where to start!

16.1. The telling is opposed to the showing.

* At the beginning of the scene, JKR tells us that Ginny knows what
Harry is about to do and why. And yet her very first question
contradicts that statement. 

* JKR says that they understand each other perfectly, and yet Harry
doesn't understand that Ginny doesn't care about becoming a prime
target for LV, and Ginny doesn't understand that Harry is afraid to be
hurt again.

16.2. There is absolutely NO emotional support given or received by
either Ginny or Harry. Neither indicates that they know what the other
is going through, nor do they offer words of sympathy.

16.3. Harry dumps Ginny and doesn't offer her any consolation. No "I
love you", no last kiss, no "I'm so sorry", no "I don't mean to hurt
you", no nothing.

16.4. Harry doesn't dump Ginny to protect *her*: he does it to protect
*himself*. He's not afraid that she would die: he's afraid of what HE
would feel if she died. And he doesn't care about making her
miserable, as long as he can protect himself. That's not sacrifice,
that's selfishness (and trust me, I *know* the difference, just ask my
husband). 

16.5. Harry *imposes* his will on Ginny. He gives her NO say in the
decision. A huge no-no for me. And when she tries to give her opinion,
Harry basically accuses her of wanting to hurt him.

16.6. *What* were they talking about during all those hours together,
if Ginny didn't even get around to tell Harry about Hermione telling
her to get a life?? 

16.7. They are both deluding themselves as for the real reason they
didn't get together earlier. Harry says it's just because he didn't
ask Ginny sooner, when the real reason is that he simply never saw
Ginny before, he was completely smitten with Cho. And Ginny says it's
because Harry was too busy saving the world, which is not true either. 

16.8. "I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting LV".
Happy... Seems like Ginny isn't the most important thing in Harry's
life indeed. 

16.9. "Maybe that's why I like you so much." The hero-worship is still
there. Ginny likes Harry because Harry is a knight in shining armour.
I don't consider *that* to be a sign of deep and mature love.

17. People have said that Harry dumping Ginny is a sign of his deep
and mature love for her. How can this be, since Harry is dumping
*everyone*, including Ron and Hermione? Harry wants to go *alone*, he
says so himself. He expects Ron and Hermione to know that too, which
shows how little he understands *them*, which in turn doesn't bode
well of his understanding of Ginny.

18. When being told that he must come to the Burrow for Bill and
Fleur's wedding, Harry does not, not for one moment, think of Ginny.
One would think that the words "the Burrow" and "Ginny" would be
associated in Harry's mind, after all the telling about how Harry got
closer to Ginny after spending the summer with her at the Burrow. But
no! Harry thinks of the Burrow, he thinks of what a happy time it will
be, and he thinks of how good it will be to have some peaceful in
company of Ron and Hermione, but NO thought *whatsoever* of Ginny come
to his mind.

For all these reasons, I just don't see the romance between Harry and
Ginny as being anything more than a fling on Harry's side and
hero-worship on Ginny's side. And unfortunately JKR did not give me
any proof that it is much more than that.

In contrast, the relationship between Ron and Hermione seems to me
much more emotionally intimate and mature by the end of HBP. They can
talk about everything, they are not afraid to disagree, they respect
the other's opinion when they do disagree, they are not afraid to show
their true feelings to the other, they talk as a couple (both say "we"
when talking to Harry at the end, which implies that either they've
already discussed the matter, or they *really* know each other well),
and so on. If I had to put my money on which couple has the most
chances to last, I'd put all of it on Ron and Hermione.

Del