Slughorn - hiding more than meets the eye?

[hermionegallo]

No: HPFGUIDX 136498

Saraquel said:
I know that there are lots of holes in this, but is it worth taking 
anywhere?

hg:
Oho!  Someone else interested in Slughorn!  Very good, very good!  
I'll snip carefully, Saraquel, but there's so much to respond to...

saraquel:
 
> Why is Slughorn so afraid at the beginning of the book that he has 
> spent a whole year in hiding.  This is a man whose whole life is 
> built around socialising with the rich and famous, being connected, 
etc...Is the conversation with Tom Riddle about Horcruxes enough for 
him to be now in fear of his life?  If it is, then was he in hiding 
for the whole of Voldemort's previous reign of terror? It doesn't 
appear so from later evidence. 
...DD says p69 "So all these precautions against intruders, Horace 
 
> are they for the Death Eaters' benefit, or mine?" We know that DD 
> wants something from Slughorn, but the Horcrux memory would not put 
> Slughorn in fear of his life from DD. Is DD being slightly 
sarcastic here, or is the question for real?

hg: 
I think it's for real.  He's hiding from Voldemort, yes, but 
Dumbledore more so.  

He's been in hiding a year.  Well, a year ago the truth came out that 
Voldemort was alive and well again.  That means that his secreted 
suspicions proved accurate, that Voldemort may suspect he'll remember 
that conversation regarding seven Horcruxes, and connecting the dots 
go running to Dumbledore.  His bigger fear, I think, is that 
Dumbledore is likely to come a-calling.  Now what's to fear from 
Dumbledore if all he has to do is teach at Hogwarts, under superior 
and myriad protections, and cough up one shameful memory?  My answer 
is that I think he knows Dumbledore well enough to know that he asks 
a lot of people, lay-your-life-on-the-line a lot, and even MORE of 
his friends.  I'd be willing to bet, even, that the time he quit 
Hogwarts and the time of Lily and James' (and Regulus') deaths 
coincided, and that Dumbledore has asked an awful lot of him before.

> saraquel:
> How did DD know where to find Slughorn? Slughorn was not 
> expecting him.

hg:
That one has me stumped.

>saraquel:
> Slughorn says he forgot to do the mark.  Do we assume that he 
therefore knows 
> how to cast a Dark Mark?  In GoF, p128, Mr Weasley says to 
> Hermione, "it was only the Death Eaters who ever knew how to 
conjure 
> it."  But then on p73 Slughorn says `as I have never joined the 
> Death Eaters, h-w-m-n-b-n can hardly count me a friend."  Sounds as 
> though he is debating whether Voldemort's vengeance will be 
> increased, but it also indicates that he was not always openly anti-
> DE.

hg:
This sheds a new light on my reading of Slughorn thus far.  I have 
been wondering about his motives -- is he really on Dumbledore's side 
or not -- but I've been heavily leaning on him being a reliable, true 
friend of Dumbledore, quite nearly an equal.  If so, he'd probably be 
able to make a fake Dark Mark easily; his other skills are amazing, 
and in two minutes -- quite agile for someone supposedly old and 
frail.
It seemed to me that Dumbledore was bringing in the big guns by 
hiring Slughorn, and that it was also a move to force Snape's hand.

I can't imagine Slughorn ever associating himself with the Death 
Eaters, but you've got me duly worried.

saraquel:
> On page 69 DD probes for reasons, suggesting that 
> Slughorn's `considerable talents" would be a reason for the DEs to 
> come `recruiting'.  

hg:
I read it that he was taking an opportunity to lavish praise to 
soften him up.

saraquel:
> Harry does not notice the ring at the Dursley's, but first notices 
it at Slughorn's, so DD has put the ring on especially for the 
visit.  Presumably DD is banking on Slughorn recognising 
> it as Voldemort's.  The ring is now cracked, having had Voldemort's 
> soul surgically removed.  We also know that DD has tried to get the 
> full memory from Slughorn before.  
> Is DD presuming that Slughorn will know that the Ring was a 
Horcrux, and by the cracked state of it, realise that it has been 
destroyed. Or is DD just putting pressure on Slughorn to reveal how 
much he knows about Voldemort's horcruxes?

hg:
Yes, and yes -- and more, I think.  
In that scene, Harry is sitting on Dumbledore's left.  We know this 
because Dumbledore extends his hands, the right (blackened) first, 
the left with the ring on it next, which is then that Harry notices 
it, can clearly see the stone and the crack.  Dumbledore, addressing 
Slughorn's comment that Dumbledore should consider retiring, 
says, "you're quite right."  When he extends the other hand, he 
says, "on the other hand..."  On this "other hand" is the ring, and 
seated AT this other hand is Harry.  Dumbledore is saying that I've 
found this ring, you know who it belonged to, it was a Horcrux and I 
destroyed it, and here sits Harry Potter, we're going to get 
Voldemort for sure, so I really, really need you, Horace. 


saraquel:
> Speculation time: 
> Voldemort knows that Slughorn must suspect him of having made 
> Horcruxes – in the plural – because of the conversation. Now what's 
> interesting here is that young Tom was confident that Slughorn 
would 
> know about Horcruxes – very, very dark magic.   That Slughorn is a 
> very talented wizard there is no doubt...  [DD says it and] Draco 
says (HBP p301) that his grandfather said that Slughorn was 
> the best potion-maker he'd known.
> 
> Now, whoever stashed the false!locket found out about LVs Horcruxes 
> and about the cave.  It has taken DD nigh on 16 years to get to 
this 
> point, the greatest living Wizard – yet we are supposed to believe 
> that RAB – Regulus Black –  sorry, who?  Managed to get there way 
> before him.  I'm very pulled to the opinion that Regulus was either 
someone's stooge, or took someone very talented with him.  Regulus... 
was young and [his] powers wouldn't register much in the boat. 
> 
> Whoever, stole the Horcrux!Locket was a really good potion maker, 
> although I wonder where the ingredients to make the new potion came 
> from??  The best potion makers we know are Snape, Slughorn and 
> Lily.  

hg:
I see where you're going and I'm intrigued and repulsed 
simultaneously.  It still doesn't have to be Slughorn, but I LOVE 
that the bowl would have to be refilled.  This lends credence to some 
speculation that Snape accompanied Regulus.

saraquel: 
> Now the note claims that RAB wanted Voldemort to know it was him 
> that found out his secret. If RAB is a stooge, then the other 
person 
> must be someone who actively does not want LV to suspect them and 
is 
> prepared to give up the glory of having found out.  This rules out 
> Snape IMHO – whose life is one long seeking for recognition – but 
> doesn't rule out Slughorn – who always liked to take a back seat.  

hg:
I don't think it of necessity would have to rule out Snape.  It may 
in fact be convincing evidence that it is Snape.  It might be more 
fuel to his fire of wanting recognition.  Or it might have been his 
gesture when leaving the Death Eaters of severing his ties with 
Voldemort.  Or a way of stripping Voldemort of some of his power, 
without Voldemort being the wiser, and then letting Regulus die for 
it.

>saraquel:
> Why might Slughorn have agreed to do this? To try and salve his 
> conscience.  Although there must be much more to it than that, 
> Regulus might have gone to Slughorn for help...Having done 
> the dirty deed of stealing the Horcrux!Locket though, Slughorn 
would 
> now have something even more dangerous to try and hide, which might 
> explain his current behaviour. It still does not answer the 
question 
> about how Slughorn/Regulus knew about the cave.  Who knew about the 
> cave???????  

hg:
No, no, you're onto something.  After Harry gets the full memory and 
shares it with Dumbledore, there'd be plenty of time for Dumbledore 
and Slughorn to have an honest heart-to-heart chat wherein Slughorn 
would relent and agree to help with the Horcrux quest.  If he tried 
to help Regulus -- by accompanying him or even just helping him upon 
his return -- he could know the location of the cave and be able to 
tell Dumbledore, preceding Dumbledore's invitation to Harry to join 
him.  What DOESN'T work is that Dumbledore didn't know what Horcrux 
would be there.  Would Regulus have been dying and only get out the 
part about the cave?  Would he stop short of telling Slughorn which 
Horcrux it was because Slughorn didn't want to know too much?  (This 
info has been quite a burden, after all.)  How WOULD Regulus have 
found out about the cave, anyway?  Unless, as you say, the DE's were 
privy to that info. (GoF, p562, Voldemort says to the returned 
DEs: "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would 
not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard 
myself against mortal death?")  

Saraquel:
> Then there is also the Felix Felicis potion... He says he has taken 
the potion twice in his life, once aged 24 and the second time aged 
57.  Hmmm, what happened the second 
> time.  We know that he is younger than DD, we know that he started 
> teaching around the same time as DD (HBP p82)  Does anyone know 
when 
> DD started teaching – it must be over 55 years ago because he was a 
> teacher when he went to Tom's orphanage, and Tom was 11.  

hg:
If Dumbledore was a new teacher when he went to the orphanage, it 
would be 1938 that he and Slughorn started teaching at Hogwarts 
together.  24 sounds a good age to get a teaching job, perhaps?  His 
birthyear would be 1914, he'd be 57 in 1971, and goodness knows what 
was happening then. (Voldemort was getting powerful?) That would put 
his current age, by the way, at 82.  Do the math in the reverse, 
speculating the locket was found in 1980 and he was 57, then he'd be 
73 now, and the other lucky day would have been 1947.  Not possible 
because he'd then have been 15 in 1938.  One more little speculation: 
what if he aided Dumbledore in his defeat of Grindelwald?  He'd have 
been 24 in 1945 and born in 1921; second day would be 1978 (?) and 
he'd be 75 now.

I've more to say on the topic of Slughorn, but this post is already 
painfully long.  Thanks for posting this, I've been craving a 
Slughorn talk.  I'll look forward to your reply, Saraquel, and to 
those of others who may wish to add their comments.
hg.