Slughorn - hiding more than meets the eye?

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 136533

Thanks for all your thoughts Hermione, great to get such a detailed 
reply, here's my responses:

>saraquel:
> Why is Slughorn so afraid at the beginning of the book that he has
> spent a whole year in hiding <large snip> We know that DD
> wants something from Slughorn, but the Horcrux memory would not put
> Slughorn in fear of his life from DD. Is DD being slightly
sarcastic here, or is the question for real?

Hermionegallo wrote:
>>hg:
>I think it's for real. He's hiding from Voldemort, yes, but
>Dumbledore more so. <large snip>  My answer
>is that I think he knows Dumbledore well enough to know that he asks
>a lot of people, lay-your-life-on-the-line a lot, and even MORE of
>his friends. I'd be willing to bet, even, that the time he quit
>Hogwarts and the time of Lily and James' (and Regulus') deaths
>coincided, and that Dumbledore has asked an awful lot of him before.

Saraquel now:
I liked this reasoning, that he has something real to fear from DD, 
although what more would DD be asking from him, other than the 
memory.  But I suppose, if Slug is hanging around DD, LV really does 
have reason to believe, like you say, that he has told him about the 
Horcrux conversation.

You're right about his retirement, if he was potions master, then 
that job was taken over by Snape in the year before James and Lily 
were killed.


>saraquel:
> Slughorn says he forgot to do the mark. Do we assume that he
therefore knows
> how to cast a Dark Mark? <snip>  but it also indicates that he was 
not always openly anti-
> DE.

>hg:
>This sheds a new light on my reading of Slughorn thus far. I have
>been wondering about his motives -- is he really on Dumbledore's 
side
>or not -- but I've been heavily leaning on him being a reliable, 
true
>friend of Dumbledore, quite nearly an equal. 

Saraquel now:
No I've never really thought that DD liked him very much and I don't 
think DD trusts him at all.  Slughorn is too vulnerable to flattery 
and needing to be the centre of attention for DD to really be 
interested in him.  That Slughorn trod a carefully balanced line 
during the first Voldemort years, I can well imagine.  IMO, He would 
have tried to make sure that he remained in good contact with both 
sides, so that he could still have his pineapple regardless of who 
won.  

Going back to the time he retired, all the evidence from the Order 
suggests that LV was looking like he was going to win – the `picking 
us off one at a time' remarks, suggest that LV had the upper hand.  
So, one wonders if Slughorn, having hedged his bets, thought it was 
about time to jump out of bed with DD and put some distance between 
himself and LVs enemies. At this point he becomes a collaborator 
with the DEs but he doesn't actually join them – hence his remark to 
DD.

Then LV apparently snuffs it at GH, so Slughorn is now doing another 
volt face.  When DD comes along and asks him for memories about Tom 
Riddle when he was in the Slug Club, Slughorn really doesn't want to 
incriminate himself in any way, so does a bodge job on the Horcrux 
memory.

One question here is, what prompted Slughorn to fiddle with the 
memory, shame or self preservation – or a mixture of both?  Was he 
ashamed that he almost sided with the enemy? Or was he morally 
ashamed.  The jury is out for me on Slughorn's morals.  I don't 
think he is an evil man, but I think that his morals come second to 
his comforts.

>saraquel:
> On page 69 DD probes for reasons, suggesting that
> Slughorn's `considerable talents" would be a reason for the DEs to
> come `recruiting'.

>hg:
>I read it that he was taking an opportunity to lavish praise to
>soften him up.

Saraquel now:
Hmmm, hadn't thought of that one, good thinking.


saraquel:
> DD has put the ring on especially for the
>visit. 

>hg:
> Dumbledore, addressing
>Slughorn's comment that Dumbledore should consider retiring,
>says, "you're quite right." When he extends the other hand, he
>says, "on the other hand..." On this "other hand" is the ring, and
>seated AT this other hand is Harry. Dumbledore is saying that I've
>found this ring, you know who it belonged to, it was a Horcrux and I
>destroyed it, and here sits Harry Potter, we're going to get
>Voldemort for sure, so I really, really need you, Horace.


Saraquel now:
Yes, nice observation, and I've also just had the thought that DD 
really, really, really wants the memory and no way does he want 
Slughorn to fall into enemy hands. 


saraquel:
> Speculation time:
> Now, whoever stashed the false!locket found out about LVs Horcruxes
> and about the cave. <snip> I'm very pulled to the opinion that 
Regulus was either
>someone's stooge, or took someone very talented with him. 
>hg:
>I see where you're going and I'm intrigued and repulsed
>simultaneously. It still doesn't have to be Slughorn, but I LOVE
>that the bowl would have to be refilled. This lends credence to some
>speculation that Snape accompanied Regulus.

Saraquel now:
Oh I was so hoping for a Snape free post :-)

> hg:
>I don't think it of necessity would have to rule out Snape. It may
>in fact be convincing evidence that it is Snape. It might be more
>fuel to his fire of wanting recognition. Or it might have been his
>gesture when leaving the Death Eaters of severing his ties with
>Voldemort. Or a way of stripping Voldemort of some of his power,
>without Voldemort being the wiser, and then letting Regulus die for
>it.

Saraquel now:
Point taken, At the moment I belong to the Snape's-only-in-it-for-
himself camp, and would not put it past him to let or even force, 
RAB to take the fall.  The question is, when in the James/Lily 
timeline did RAB take the locket and disappear from view. In OotP 
p104, Sirius says Regulus died 15 years ago.  Which would mean he 
died around the time Harry was born, Just over a year before GH and 
around the time Snape found out about the prophecy and claimed to 
switch sides.  Before, DD went fishing for Slughorn's memories.  

An interesting little aside here, is what Slughorn says right at the 
end of HBP after Snape has killed DD p585 "Snape!" ejaculated 
Slughorn, who looked the most shaken, pale and sweating. `Snape! I 
taught him! I thought I knew him!"  So from this, do we assume that 
Slughorn has always thought Snape was on the side of good or are 
there other explanations for him being so shaken?  He is remembering 
the Snape he taught at school, it sounds as though he is basing his 
judgement from that time.  The "I thought I knew him!" is the sort 
of thing you say when you are mistaken in someone and then go back 
in your mind to see what you have told them in the past.


>saraquel:
It still does not answer the
question
> about how Slughorn/Regulus knew about the cave. Who knew about the
> cave???????

>hg: How WOULD Regulus have
found out about the cave, anyway? 

Saraquel now:
Yep, we're still stuck with that one!  And in the past, I've had all 
sorts of thoughts (and some posts) about whether the whole cave 
scene was ever a real Horcrux at all, whether it's just a training 
exercise for Harry
..  Yes, but let's not go there unless we 
absolutely have to. I can't wait for the chapter discussion on the 
Cave!! 

As for the FF stuff, it feels like it should be relevant, but no 
real joy so far.
Saraquel