Finding the Cave and let's start on the potion!

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 136786

Really glad you've come on board the leaky fishing boat, Valky!

>Valky wrote:
>I too have considered the cave to be rather a bit fishy. I read the
>lists that Jen and Saraquel came up with for explanations of the
>unexplained matters about the locket, none of them felt quite right
>for me either so I thought I might offer up another one.
>Dumbledore had deduced he *might* be going to a place where a 
Horcrux
>had been already found.

Saraquel
Yes, this would fit with the DD uses the cave as training theory 
which I feel is a good one.

>Valky
>Say for example Mundungus sold the Locket to Aberforth and during 
one >of DD's shortdrinks at Hogsmeade he recognised it.. Voila!! 
another >Horcrux. <snip> Aberforth presenting the Locket to him (or 
other such >means of DD gathering the right information)

Yes, we agree about Aberforth having the locket and depending on 
whether Aberforth is ESE! ESG! or even ESI! (ignorant - of the 
significance of it) DD may or may not have acquired it prior to 
going to the cave.

I'm not at all sure that Mung was just fencing stolen property in 
Hogsmeade. Either Sirius or Lupin (thanks to whoever reminded me of 
this in a post not long ago) said Mung was banned from the Hogs 
Head, so why is he meeting Aberforth in such a matey way.  Unless of 
course, it's not Aberforth who banned Mung, but the mysterious owner 
of the pub – whoever that is.  I think there is more to Aberforth 
having the locket than just him happening to acquire it as a piece 
of stolen property – but I might be wrong – no, surely not :-)

Did DD find out about the locket in Grimauld Place? Perhaps he 
sensed Voldemort's "touch"/soul.  I suspect that Kreacher snaffled 
the locket away in his little nest, in which case it was in the 
kitchen where all the meetings were held, and close enough for DD to 
pick up its characteristic `radio signals'.  Although, if that had 
been the case, why didn't DD just take it himself – why instruct 
Mung to get it and give it to Aberforth?  I have toyed for some time 
with the scenario that DD asked Mung to get the locket and give it 
to Aberforth, but I can't seem to work out a good enough story to go 
behind it.

Now the scenario where DD just saw the locket at the Hogs Head. I 
don't think in a million years that he would have just left it in 
Aberforth's possession if he had recognised it as a Horcrux.  He 
would have got that locket and he would have tried to destroy it as 
soon as he could. 

>Valky wrote:
>DD can now instruct Harry on Voldemorts "lesser protections", the 
cave
>defenses. Harry hasn't come across these before, he has experienced
>first hand what an actual horcrux is willing to use to defend 
itself,
>and proven himself up to the task, but actually acquiring the 
Horcrux
>from its hiding place presents a learning opportunity for Harry. So
>armed with an exceptional guess as to which Horcrux he is getting
>(Though he says "of course I may be entirely wrong about it..") DD
>takes Harry along for the ride.

Saraquel:
I do get your point about DD wanting to make this as real a training 
exercise as possible, so that would explain not telling Harry before 
they go that he either has possession of the Horcrux!locket or that 
he has destroyed it.  But when they get back and the Dark Mark is 
over the tower and DD knows that there is a real possibility of his 
death (which there is whether you believe DD knew about the UV or 
not, DEs in the school mean possible murder) why does he not tell 
Harry the status of the real Horcrux!Locket and where it is? He does 
have time, and it seems some renewed energy – when they are flying 
up to the tower. It is also of life and death importance (and 
mission critical, Batman) for Harry to know whether the Horcrux is 
active or destroyed and its whereabouts.  Harry having this bit of 
knowledge is more important than whether DD lives or dies and DD 
knows that, I just can't think he would leave that to chance.

Valky wrote
>4. The fake locket may hold clues to the beginning of the trail of
>Horcruxes. Now I am not presuming that DD knew the locket contained 
a
>note addressed to Voldie with Reg's signature on it. But I am
>supposing that DD, somewhat aware that his time was running out,
>wanted to give Harry one last push in the right direction. So 
allowing
>for the chance that the fake locket might or might not bear a clue 
as
>to the location of the real locket, DD takes the opportunity to help
>Harry understand a new (hopefully the last) angle of Voldemorts 
magic,
>and, with luck, leave him with his instructions to his next step in
>the journey already in his hands. And clearly I am supposing that DD
>snatched the locket up so quickly at the cave because he always
>intended to keep from Harry that it was a fake until Harry was in a
>position to benefit from the clue.

Saraquel:
Sorry Valky, but I don't think I'm understanding you here.  It reads 
to me as though you are saying, even if DD was dying he wouldn't 
tell Harry about the Horcrux!Locket because he's hoping there will 
be a clue in the Fake!Locket.  If that's what you meant then I think 
I've answered it above.  If it isn't, could you elucidate for me.  
It seems to me that the "how did RAB know about the cave?" question 
is not going to be answered by what we know so far, which is why I 
think that the Fake!Locket was planted theory is worth something.  I 
hope that JKRs explanation isn't going to be, "someone" followed 
Voldemort to the cave when he first hid the Horcrux, that would be 
really disappointing. 

Just a last comment on the possibility that the Fake!locket was 
planted and Horcrux!locket is still in DD's pocket.  There is a 
thread running through that evil can never really be eradicated – UK 
Ed HBP p601 Harry remembers "It was important, Dumbledore said, to 
fight, and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then could evil 
be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated
." And also Snape's 
speech about the Dark Arts being "varied, ever-changing and eternal" 
p169. It makes me speculate that JKR is going to leave some evil 
around after the end of book 7.  Whether that evil is a bit of 
Voldemort's soul (well 2 bits as he can't be destroyed if the Locket 
isn't) or something in the form of a Snape (I can hear the hissing 
and booing from the gallery over that one :-)  )  I don't know.  I 
doubt it will be bits of Voldemort as that's the whole point of the 
story, but something will be hanging around. 

Whilst I'm musing around this, did it strike anyone else as odd, the 
order in which the fake locket and DD death was done.  I was so 
knocked out by DD's death, that the fake locket scenario seemed 
almost nothing – almost an annoying side issue which threatened to 
take away from the impact of DD's death.  It felt thrown away.  Yet 
it is vital for the continuation of the plot.  To find out that it 
was a fake locket before DD died, would have made even more impact 
IMO.   You would have been watching that scene with Draco with even 
more pathos, that DD had weakened himself for nothing.  I don't 
think the discovery of the fake locket could have overshadowed DD's 
death in any way, so I don't think that JKR left the revelation 
until after DD's death for any reader impact reason.  I think there 
was a plot reason why DD either didn't know the locket was fake, or 
knew but didn't tell Harry that it was.


Ok, now for the potion:

> houyhnhnm wrote:
> The potion, along with the spell protecting it (which defies even
> Dumbledore's knowledge of magic,) bothers me more than the 
location >of the cave.
>
> If RAB (whoever that is) got to the cave first, are the potion and 
>the> charm the same ones Voldemort used when he placed the horcrux 
there
> originally. If so, how did RAB replace the potion after having 
drunk
> it? Or did RAB know how to break the charm (and then recast
> it)protecting the potion, and thus didn't have to drink it? S/he
> would have to be an extremely powerful witch or wizard. Or is the
> potion Dumbledore drinks a different potion altogether? I agree 
that
> Dumbledore has a remarkably cavalier attitude about drinking it. As
> for the effect, as someone else pointed out, it sounds like 
somebody
> getting crucio'd. It reminds me of Harry's visions when he is 
inside
> Voldemort's head, but I can't get any further than that.

Well yes, Hmmm, the delights of the potion.  Of course all that you 
say just adds to the mystery.  And another thing is, if the potion 
is RAB's what was he intending to happen to the person he presumed 
would have to drink it – i.e. Voldmeort.  Why put Voldemort, through 
all that "memory stuff" for want of a better term.  If it was a 
memory stored in the potion, whose memory was it, and of what.  Or 
was it that the potion made you relive your worst experience, or 
something like that?

As I said in my last post, the potion requires a lot of thought and 
I'm not yet ready to go there!!  Maybe you'd like to start us off by 
listing all the possible combinations and permutations.  

Saraquel