Putting words in other posters' mouth - Rape

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 136825

Vmonte, Rizza,

may I suggest you check what someone wrote, 
next time, before attempting to psychoanalyse them?

And Roxanne, you wrote:
"When we start talking about Harry as a sexual
predator I think it's safe to say that we're
no longer discussing canon."

Del replies:
You can't just SAY it, you have to SHOW it.
So please show me where it says that Harry
CANNOT turn into a sexual predator or
anything of the sort. You pretend to be
discussing canon, so by all means, give me
CANON evidence supporting what is otherwise only your belief.

Roxanne wrote:
"Everyone reads HP (and any book or story)
through their own filters. That's cool, but
for the purpose of this list sticking to
canon is probably the best way to go."

Del replies:
Sticking to canon, or sticking to YOUR VERSION
of canon? For your information, I HAVE stuck
to canon. If I haven't, please demonstrate so. 

Roxanne wrote:
"If you find yourself talking more about your
life than Harry's perhaps it's time to step back."

Del replies:
Please demonstrate that I have talked more
about my own life than Harry's. You can't just
accuse me of having done it, you have to prove it.

Back to Vmonte and Rizza, now.

Vmonte wrote:
"You and I know that Harry is not a sexual predator--at
least I think you don't?"

My message 136124:
"1. I DO *NOT* BELIEVE THAT HARRY IS ABUSING GINNY."

Vmonte wrote:
"And it's ok to feel upset because your ship did
not come true."

My message 136037:
"How many times will I have to say it? I AM a H/G
supporter, I ALWAYS was a H/G supporter. But that
doesn't mean that I am going to accept this fake
and cheap romance as The Real Deal. Just because
I was bought to the idea long before HBP came out
doesn't mean that JKR can screw it up like that."

Addition: I think I'll turn into a Harry/Luna
shipper. Much more fun and interesting.

Vmonte wrote:
"But it also seems to me that JKR is a VERY moral
person and that she is trying to teach children
some great lessons in her books. Imagine a book
that teaches children to value family, friendship,
and to be brave in the face of danger; to have
tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect the
best in people."

Del replies:

* Value family: only when your family is on
the right side. Draco Malfoy is shown as being
decidedly wrong for following in his parents' steps,
while Sirius is a hero for having renounced his evil family.

* Value friends: ditto. Bad, bad Cho who remained
friend with Marrietta, for example.

* To be brave in the face of danger: all right for this one.

* To have tolerance, learn how to forgive, and expect
the best in people: I'll reserve my approval on those
ones until Book 7. If it is shown in the last book that
DD was a fool to give Snape a second chance, then I'll
have to disagree with you.

Vmonte wrote:
"There is no way that JKR would make Harry a rapist or an abuser."

Del replies:
Agreed: there is no way *JKR* would make Harry
a bad guy. That doesn't mean that the Harry we
know couldn't turn into an abuser, in the hands
of another writer. To me, there's a small but
significant difference between saying "JKR won't
make Harry be an abuser" and "Harry cannot be an abuser".

Vmonte wrote:
"I understand that you feel like you didn't get
enough of Harry-with-Ginny to make it real for
you, but it's another thing to start inventing
scenarios that are just not there."

Del replies:
The positive romantic scenarios about Harry and
Ginny are not there either. Hence my rants about
that relationship being EMPTY: there's NOTHING there.

Rizza wrote:
"So I comprehend you perfectly well when you
say anyone can be be predator, which means
Harry could be, *IF* JKR had written him that way, but she didn't."

Del replies:
How do you know that she didn't, since we do
not get to see a single scene of Harry and Ginny
in their romantic relationship?

I'm not saying the abuse is there. I'm just
saying that we don't have to rule it out
because JKR hasn't given us any ground to
rule it out. The only reason we rule it out
is because we ASSUME that she never intended to
write Harry as an abuser. But then I also assumed
that Harry would never even attempt to use one
of the Unforgivable Curses...

Rizza wrote:
"I can see you're determined to believe
the worst because you're experienced the worst,
and so think it's possible of anyone. "

Del replies:
Which part of "I DO *NOT* BELIEVE THAT HARRY
IS ABUSING GINNY" do you not understand?

Rizza wrote:
"I do think you could be more open-minded,
and perhaps a little bit logical about this."

Del replies:
Who is being close-minded by refusing to
consider a possibility that would be very real in RL?

Who is being illogical by ruling out a
possibility on the grounds of assumption instead of hard evidence?

Rizza wrote:
"I mean, it's one thing to have those
implications about a minor character
we hardly know, but we don't need to
imply anything about Harry's character,
especially something as big as this. We've
had six years to get to know him and have been
in and out of his mind more times than anyone
can count. He's not an abusive person in the least."

Del replies:
Actually, it's PRECISELY because I've been
in Harry's head for so long that I thought
of the abuse scenario. I have seen things in
Harry's behaviour towards other people that
DO make me cringe, and that DO make me think
that such a boy could turn into an abuser
if he weren't protected by JKR's will.

I have also learned in OoP not to assume anything
about Harry. Based on the first four books, I
would NEVER have imagined OoP!Harry. And yet he happened.

I'll finish with those definitions (from dictionary.com):

Speculation: 
  1. Contemplation or consideration of a subject;
     meditation.
  2. A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached
     by conjecture.
  3. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence;
     conjecture or supposition.

Possible:
  1. Capable of happening, existing, or being
     true without contradicting proven facts,
     laws, or circumstances.
  2. Capable of occurring or being done without
     offense to character, nature, or custom.
  4. Of uncertain likelihood.

Theory:
  1. A set of statements or principles devised
     to explain a group of facts or phenomena, 
     especially one that has been repeatedly
     tested or is widely accepted and can be 
     used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
   4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision
      based on experience rather than theory.
   5. A belief or principle that guides action
      or assists comprehension or judgment: 
      staked out the house on the theory that
      criminals usually return to the scene of
      the crime.
   6. An assumption based on limited information
      or knowledge; a conjecture.

Assumption:
   3. The act of taking for granted: assumption
      of a false theory.
   4. Something taken for granted or accepted
      as true without proof; a supposition: a
      valid assumption.
   
Imagine:
 v. tr.
  1. To form a mental picture or image of.
  2. To think; conjecture: I imagine you're right.
  3. To have a notion of or about without 
     adequate foundation; fancy: She imagines
     herself to be a true artist.
 v. intr.
  1. To employ the imagination.
  2. To make a guess; conjecture.

Conjecture:
  1. Inference or judgment based on inconclusive
     or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
  2. A statement, opinion, or conclusion based
     on guesswork: The commentators made various
     conjectures about the outcome of the next
     election.

Sheesh!

Del