Percy (was The Twins are bad, but poor poor Percy!!!!#?%)

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 136918

Susan McGee wrote:
"First, you have no evidence from canon to support that "by the time
Percy most probably learned of the situation, Arthur was completely
out of danger.""

Del replies:
Actually, I do. It's in two parts.

1. Hardback UK ed, p. 423, ch. "St Mungo's Hospital". Harry, Sirius
and the Weasley kids have been waiting all night to learn about
Arthur's state.

"At ten past five in the morning by Ron's watch, the kitchen door
swung open and Mrs Weasley entered the kitchen. She was extremely
pale, but when they all turned to look at her, Fred, Ron and Harry
half rising from their chairs, she gave a wan smile.

'He's going to be all right,' she said, her voice weak with tiredness.
 'He's sleeping. We can all go and see him later. Bill's sitting with
him now; he's going to take the morning off work.'"

So we know that by 5:10am, Arthur is out of danger, and well enough to
have visitors.

2. The second part is actually a lack of evidence. We are never told,
as far as I can remember, that anyone informed Percy about his father
during the night.

So we don't have any canon telling us that Percy was told that his
father was in *mortal* danger and that Percy refused to care about him.

Susan wrote:
"Even if you are right, you don't ask how your father is after ther
has been a near fatal attack, or visit or send a card?"

Del replies:
You're assuming that Percy didn't ask about his father. We know he
didn't ask *his family* about his father, but we don't know that he
didn't ask anyone else.

Visit or send a card: Percy is about 20 at the time, and very angry at
his father. Not visiting or sending a card is not nice, but very much
in character for such a young man in this kind of situation IMO.

As for the attack, it took place in the Ministry, at night. Percy
might have wondered what ever his father was doing, sneaking at night
in the Ministry.

Susan wrote:
"No, it is consonant with a Percy who storms off because his father
tells him the truth -- he's been promoted for political reasons, not
for his abilities."

Del replies:
The truth? How do you know it's the truth?

Susan wrote:
"Arthur, Charlie, Bill, Molly and Ginny have not been "unsupportive"
of him."

Del replies:
I can't remember any of them ever being happy with who Percy is or
what he has achieved.

Susan wrote:
"Because his father points out the truth (and Percy learns later that
it IS the truth)"

Del replies:
I can't remember that part. Can you point out where we learn about it
being the truth?

Susan wrote:
"Percy storms off, after saying incredibly vicious things to his father."

Del replies:
I never saw what he said to his father as being really horrible. See
below.

Susan wrote:
"Percy continues to be a lickspittle, shutting out his family, being
used by Scrimgeour to get to the Burrow, so that Scrimgeour can try to
use Harry for his own political/public relations purposes. Ychhhhh..."

Del replies:
Harry often shuts himself from his friends in the same book. And just
because Harry got some useful experience about not letting other
people use him doesn't mean Percy has the same kind of experience.
Harry has had to deal with people using him for their own PR goals for
a long time (think of Lockhart in CoS), but Percy hasn't. And we don't
know that Percy knew what Scrimgeour wanted with Harry.

Susan wrote:
"Given Percy's sanctimonious, pompous and oh so pleased with himself
letter to Ron (see below), I do not think his pride was even bruised,
let alone totally and completely crushed. There is no canon evidence
to support Percy's crushed pride."

Del replies:
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I never meant to say that
Arthur sent Percy into the depths of depression or something. I only
meant to say that Arthur flatly denied that Percy could have gotten
any promotion at work because of his own efforts and capacities, and
by doing so stomped all over his son's pride. The best proof for me
that it crushed Percy's pride is the anger with which he replied to
his father. I figure that only someone who has been badly hurt can
throw back such hurtful things. Even Harry figures that Arthur went
pretty far:

p. 69, ch. "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place":

"'I'm coming to that. Dad reckons Fudge only wants Percy in this
office because he wants to use him to spy on the family - and Dumbledore.'

Harry let out a low whistle.

'Bet Percy loved that.'"

Let's be honest: *who* would take such a thing with a smile on their
face? Who would not feel horribly humiliated?

Susan wrote:
"Yes, and how has he treated Molly in return? She goes to see Percy to
talk with him and what does he do? p. 72. "Mum's in a right state,"
said Ron dully. "You know – crying and stuff. She came up to London to
try to talk to Percy but he slammed the door in her face. That's
despicable."

Del replies:
In GoF, Harry often had to remind himself of what Ron had done in
order to keep being mad at him. In HBP, Harry had to turn away from
Ginny after he broke up with her, because he was afraid he would lose
his resolve otherwise. My opinion is that this is exactly the same
kind of thing: Percy won't allow himself to see his mom, or to accept
her gifts, because he's afraid this will sway his resolve. I don't see
this as despicable, just very sad.

Susan wrote:
"Let's see..Molly, Arthur, Bill and Charley are in the Order. Fred and
George are trying to get in. Ron and Ginny know about it. Percy
doesn't? Oh, c'mon.... "

Del replies:
I always got the impression that the Order is a secret society. I
can't remember Percy actually mentioning the Order's name. And Percy
left before the other Weasleys entered the Order. So unless you point
me to a canon proof that Percy does know about the Order, I still
think it is not a far-fetched assumption to say that he doesn't.

Susan wrote:
"And Percy's supporting a corrupt ministry that is scapegoting people
like Stan Shunpike in order to cover up their failure to capture any
DEs or deal with LV's murder. "

Del replies:
This is the case of anyone who's ever worked for almost any
government, in time of war as well as in time of peace. Scapegoating
people is a *classic* tactic, I don't think there is a single
government who hasn't used it.

Susan quoted:
"He said he's been having to struggle against Dad's lousy reputation
ever since he joined the Ministry"

Del replies:
Most probably true.

Susan quoted:
"that Dad's got no ambition"

Del replies:
Definitely true. Arthur doesn't have any of the kind of ambition Percy
has, the kind that makes one go up the ladder.

Susan quoted:
"and that's why we've always been -- you know -- not had a lot of
money...."

Del replies:
Partly true. I've been a government worker. The unspoken rule IS that
you will try to go up the ladder. I even have friends working into
domains where they HAVE to go up the ladder, so as not to block other
people doing it too. And money is directly linked to your going up the
ladder because this is the way the game is played: you are expected to
go up, and you get more money as you do so. By refusing to play the
game, Arthur DID deny his family additional money.

Susan quoted:
"He said Dad was an idiot to run around with Dumbledore..."

Del replies:
That's his uninformed opinion. Percy is no Legilimens, and he's a very
young man. He got it wrong, but then much older and much more
experienced people got it wrong too.

Susan quoted:
"and if Mum and Dad were going to become traitors to the Ministry, he
was going to make sure everyone knew he didn't belong to our family
anymore....""

Del replies:
Logical. If you thought your family was betraying your country,
wouldn't you disengage yourself from them too?

Susan quoted:
""Percy must remember that Harry saved his sister from the basilisk in
her first year at Hogwarts. And that Harry enabled him to win a
dishonest bet against his girlfriend in the Quidditch season of
Harry's third year. And that Harry has been all but a foster child to
his parents, from whom Percy has heard all that Harry has gone through
with his Muggle relatives and his confrontations with the Dark Lord.
Percy must recall how Harry performed in the second task of the
Triwizard Tournament, proving not only that Ron is the most important
thing in Harry's world, but that Harry would even risk losing 1000
galleons to help the mer-people's hostages to safety. All these things
from Percy's own experience, besides all Harry's triumphs and goodness
that the Weasley family has discussed over the previous four years,
ought to give Percy a good idea what kind of boy Harry is. How could
he set aside this firsthand knowledge and simply, suddenly, adopt a
completely opposite view—- even on the say-so of his hero Fudge?
Either Percy has lost his mind, or he has made up his mind to be
unjust to Harry (either out of self-delusion or pure evil), .....""

Del replies:
This is a highly simplistic view, IMO. Yes Percy knows that Harry did
all those things. But I fail to see why this should mean that Percy
should blindly believe DD when he says that Harry saw LV's rebirth.
Percy is not saying that Harry is evil, he's saying he's delusional
and making up stories. That's not the same thing. And it's not
impossible either.

Susan wrote:
"Now here we are in the HBP...Percy hasn't had the guts or the
character to admit he was wrong, that Harry isn't unbalanced, that
Dumbledore was right, even that he picked the wrong horse to bet on
particularly....."

Del replies:
Agreed. I'll freely admit that I was a bit disappointed that Percy
didn't show more guts. But I also remember that Percy is still a very
young man, and one who was never emotionally mature or balanced. Even
if it takes him longer than for most other people, it is very possible
IMO that Percy will someday face reality, sort through the many bits
of contradicting information he's got, reach the right conclusion, and
reform his way, as so many in the Potterverse did before him.

Susan wrote:
"He hasn't acknowledge that Umbridge was vicious and abusive to the
children...it wasn't just cutting Harry's hand...she SENT DEMENTORS TO
SUCK OUT HIS SOUL...she wasn't worried that his cousin might also have
his soul sucked out!...She did the Cruciatus Curse....(supposed to be
a life time sentence in Azkaban..so much for wizard justice) in front
of witnesses.... She illegally gave him veritasserum...she was going
to have Filch flog Fred and George! But Percy thought she was a really
delightful woman..."

Del replies:
First, I think it's unfair to expect Percy to have foreknowledge. Most
of those things had not even happened by the time Percy wrote his letter.

Second, we don't know what Percy knows or not. How much of what
Umbridge did is public knowledge now, or even Ministry knowledge for
that matter? I personally suspect very little, if anything, or she
wouldn't still be working for the MoM and she wouldn't have showed up
at DD's funeral. AFAIK, *nobody* ever reported her or ever repeated to
the authorities what was said in her office. So I think that what she
did is simply not known, and that Percy could very well not know about
most, if not all, of those things. If you know of canon pointing to
the contrary, please produce it.

I'm not saying that Percy is a little saint. I am only saying that
Percy has always had huge psychological issues that were greatly
enhanced by the way his family members related to him. I'm also saying
that we shouldn't hold Percy accountable for the knowledge he might
not have. And we shouldn't expect an immature 20-year-old man to
follow blindly into the footsteps of his father, a teenager, and an
old man, it's not psychologically plausible IMO. That's all.

Del