The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Sn

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 136986

> hg wrote:
> Okay, Carol, I'm guessing this is the post you're so eager to hear a 
> reply to? <snip>> 
> I should begin by saying that I thought the post was brilliant.  My 
> question going in is this: When does Snape discover what exactly he 
> vowed to help Draco do (whom he vowed to help Draco kill)?  At 
> Spinner's End (did he already know, or upon taking the Vow), or at 
> the Christmas talk, or the forest row, or when Harry nearly murders 
> Draco, or up on the Tower?  I have a feeling that he realizes it on 
> the Tower, although Dumbledore knew all along Draco's intended
victim was him.  It seems to me that in Spinner's End Snape thinks
he's agreeing to kill Harry, that he was agreeing to the Vow because
he needed to know what the plan was.  Do I need to re-read? 

Carol responds:
I think (and this is just my opinion) that JKR wants readers to
suspect that the task is to kill Harry. But for some reason, I never
thought that--possibly because Snape has made so many attempts to keep
Harry alive. I don't think he would have agreed to an Unbreakable Vow
to do any such thing--just as he doesn't kill Harry and won't even let
the DEs Crucio him at the end of the book. But reareading won't help.
We can still only guess at how much Snape know because we're seeing
him from the outside. I think he begins by bluffing, pretending that
Voldemort has told him the plan, and he is banking on the two women
not revealing to Voldemort that Narcissa has come to him for help. If
I'm right about the initial bluff, then there are only two more
possibilities: he's bluffing through the entire scene or he uses
Legilimency on Narcissa and discovers the mission after he's disposed
of Bellatrix's doubts. (Some posters have suggested that Narcissa uses
Legilimency on Snape, but Snape is a "superb Occlumens," always on his
guard, and he's not going to let that happen. Also Legilimency seems
to be a rare trait, and we know of only three wizards who can do
it--Snape, Dumbledore, and Voldemort). 

As for Snape not knowing that the cursed necklace and poisoned mead
were attempts to kill Dumbledore rather than Harry, I don't see how
that's possible. Also, the duel in the bathroom would show that Draco
is not trying to kill Harry. Snape would have died on the spot right
then for having failed to help Draco carry out his mission. And
killing Harry, whom Draco sees in any NEWT classes they're taking
together, would not require Draco to complete some secret project that
he refuses to reveal to Snape. So I could be wrong, but I don't see
how Snape could fail to know that Draco's mission is to kill
Dumbledore--and Dumbledore knows it, too, which is why he hasn't
called Draco in to see him.
> 
><snip>
> 
> Carol earlier:
> Snape's conversation with Draco occurs between the necklace incident
and the poisoned mead... Almost certainly Snape is following
Dumbledore's orders in speaking to Draco, not acting on his own
because of the vow. <snip> His idea of "helping" Draco, up to that
point, has been to put his two accomplices in detention. Now he is
forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct action. At any
rate, Draco's party crashing gives him an opportunity that can't be
passed up. 
> 
> hg:
> I agree that Dumbledore put him up to more direct action.  But can't 
> it also be that he's trying to figure out (and quick) just what he 
> vowed to help with?

Carol responds:
See above. I don't see how he could *not* know that the necklace and
mead were intended for Dumbledore, especially since Dumbledore says
over and over that he trusts. Severus Snape. If he trusts Snape to
save him from the ring Horcrux, surely he trusts him with the
knowledge of Draco's mission (not the vanishing cabinet part, which
neither of them figures out, but the knowledge of Draco's intended
target--assuming that Snape has not told Dumbledore that information,
which is what I think happened).
<snip>
 
Carol earlier, quoted by hg:
> > Snape tries a variety of tactics in this conversation [beautifully 
> detailed explanation in Carol's original post]. Draco is supremely
unconcerned that Snape has put his life on the line...The interview
has been a fiasco. There is no point in making a second attempt.
<snip> It's possible, too, that Snape is afraid that trying to stop
him will make matters worse instead of better <snip>. Surely he could
have pushed past Draco's easily detectable attempt at Occlumency, but
he doesn't do it, either because he doesn't want to further alienate
the already uncooperative Draco <snip> or because he is afraid that if
he finds out what Draco is doing, he'll be forced by the vow to aid
him. I think it's primarily the second reason.
> 
> hg:
> I like that second reason, too, but I wonder if we'd have to see a 
turn from Snape in the conversation.  A realization that this Vow was 
> more than he bargained for.  I'm not sure I can pinpoint a moment 
> like that; can you?  I think fear of further arousing Draco's 
> suspicions is part of Snape's motivation, whether the second reason 
> is true or not.

Carol responds:
I'm not sure I understand your point about "a turn from Snape." But I
see the turning point as coming long before--the trembling hand as
Snape takes the last provision of the vow. You're probably right that
the first reason is also important. Certainly he's hiding behind the
DE/double agent mask throughout the interview. It's the same reason
that he doesn't put Draco himself in detention. He's not afraid of a
sixteen-year-old boy whose DE father is in prison. He's afraid of
revealing that he's not what the boy thinks he is. But I think he's
mostly afraid of having to act on the vow to help (in the sense of
assisting rather than keeping him out of deeper trouble) Draco if he
knew exactly what Draco was doing.
> 
> Carol earlier: 
> > Snape's row with Dumbledore in the forest <snip> occurs after
Draco's second bungled attempt to kill Dumbledore backfires. Snape
knows that his influence on Draco is gone. <snip> No wonder he
explodes and tells Dumbledore that he takes too much for granted and
that he, Snape, doesn't want to do it any more. <snip>

> hg:
<snip> 
> I am utterly convinced that you're right.  "I don't want to be a 
double agent anymore" doesn't make any sense, but "I don't want to 
try to help/stop Draco" does.  Each encounter with Draco must seem 
perilously closer to one or both of them dying. <snip>
> I, too, see Snape as trapped.  Voldemort is certainly in my 
estimation using Narcissa's love for her son and Snape's connection to
Draco to force a decisive loyalty-proving action out of Snape. I've
been wondering if Dumbledore, too, wasn't forcing Snape's hand. That
would probably make the most sense only if Snape didn't tell
Dumbledore what he suspected Draco to be up to, and if Dumbledore 
didn't tell Snape what HE suspected.  I've been at a loss for a way to
demonstrate my guess that Dumbledore, like Voldemort, is forcing 
Snape's hand. Any trust that Dumbledore has for Snape, in any event,
isn't blind.
> 
> Great post, sorry I never saw it until today.
> hg.

Carol responds:
Thanks, hg. I agree that Dumbledore's trust in Snape isn't blind, and
I don't think he could have continued to trust him with his very life
(wanting his help and no one else's after he's poisoned in the cave)
if Snape hadn't told him the whole truth about the Unbreakable Vow. If
Dumbledore is forcing Snape's hand, as you suggest, all he needed to
do was to offer him the DADA position. Surely both of them know, as
it's offered and as it's accepted, that this is their last year
together. Both of them know  Dumbledore, badly damaged by the ring
Horcrux, is running out of time. Both of them know that the position
is jinxed, and that Snape's dangerous game could end either in his
betrayal of Dumbledore or his own death. Neither of them anticipates
the Unbreakable Vow, but once Snape takes it, and once he reports it
to Dumbledore (as I think he does), both of them know the shape that
the jinx has taken.

Carol, hoping that she snipped enough to satisfy the list elves (any
more would have interfered with the coherence of the conversation)