[HPforGrownups] Faked death or faked AK? (Was: The Truth about the 6th Harry Potter Book)

[Sherry Gomes]

No: HPFGUIDX 137183

Carol said:

. . . . Dumbledore, we must remember, was already dying from the
Horcrux poison. Snape had no time or opportunity to cure him, whether
he wished to or not. 

Sherry now:

Actually, we don't know for sure that Dumbledore is dying from the potion.
He was weak and unconscious at first, but he gathered strength enough to use
the spell to fight off the infiri--spelling?--and I felt he was getting
better throughout the rest of the time he was alive.  He may have been ill
and weak, as was seen by him slipping down the tower, but we do not know for
sure that he was dying or that he could not have been cured.  I think that's
important to remember, because whatever Snape's motives, we don't know what
would have happened to Dumbledore if Snape hadn't murdered him.


Carol Said:

More important, I think, Harry comes to terms with death in the
funeral chapter, understanding at last that death is not the worst
thing that can happen, that death is the next great adventure. He was
not given the opportunity to say goodbye to Sirius, but seeing
Dumbledore honored by everyone from the centaurs to the merpeople (and
 hearing the glittering generalities by the man in black who seems to
be the WW equivalent of a minister minus the religious implications)
gives Harry the opportunity to remember Dumbledore as he really was.
Twice he smiles or laughs unexpectedly, remembering Dumbledore's
eccentric sense of humor. Harry *must* move on. He can no longer be
dependent on a mentor. He has to be essentially alone (except for Ron
and Hermione and eventually without even them) to confront Voldemort,
facing the very real possibility of his own death without fear or
hesitation, and he must understand what death is and is not in order
to do so. And the fearlessness that results from hatred and the desire
for vengeance will not do if his secret weapon is Love.


Sherry now:

i agree with you about Harry being able to move on after the funeral.  It
helps to have that ceremony--I won't call it closure--but it is a way to
grieve, to smile and laugh even and to remember the one who has gone.  It
helps to start the natural process of grieving and recovery.  I thought it
was a beautiful moment and felt Harry's reactions were very real.



Carol Said:

However, I absolutely agree that Dumbledore's death is not what it
seems. I am certain that he's truly dead (and so is Sirius, as JKR
reitierates in the funeral chapter) and that he will not return as a
ghost (since he's not afraid to face what lies beyond) or as a phoenix
(Fawkes, the only phoenix we know, is a bird, not an animagus, and he
is not Dumbledore). *But* it is highly probable that he did not die
from an Avada Kedavra, as Harry (who judges by appearances) thinks he
does. As you say, Snape is an expert at casting nonverbal spells, and
if anyone has the mind control to disguise another spell as an Avada
Kedavra, it's the Occlumen/Legilimens/potions and DADA genius Severus
Snape. Also, as you say, Dumbledore's eyes are closed and he does not
wear a surprised expression (like Cedric and the dead Riddles, all of
them killed by unquestionable AKs). Dead Dumbledore looks remarkably
like Portrait!Dumbledore, peacefully asleep. Again, as you say, the
spell Snape casts does not act like an Avada Kedavra. There is no
rushing sound, no flash of blinding light. When Cedric dies, Harry
feels ill and can't see. Nothing of the sort happens when Dumbledore
is hit by Snape's spell--only a green light (fake Avada Kedavra?) and
DD "blasted" into the air and falling backward limply like a rag doll,
rather than falling to the floor, instantly dead. Harry is not
immediately released from the freezing spell when Snape's supposed AK
hits DD in the chest. There is time enough for DD to fall from the
tower, close his eyes and compose his mind, and strike the ground. 

Sherry now:

I don't take the lack of a surprised look to mean the spell wasn't an AK.
After all, Dumbledore had time to know it was going to happen.  He wasn't
surprised anymore.  Even if your theory is correct, that it is some kind of
plan between Snape and Dumbledore, Dumbledore was not surprised.  So, no
matter who is correct, those like me who think Snape committed murder that
night, or those like you who believe that isn't exactly the case, I don't
find the lack of surprise to be a compelling argument strong enough to make
me think twice about the situation on the tower.


Carol said:

The question for me is not whether Dumbledore is dead (I'm sure he
is), but why and how Snape killed him. Yes, he had no choice but to
kill Dumbledore or break his vow and allow Draco to be killed; kill
Dumbledore (who was dying anyway and could not be saved) or die
himself (which from Snape's perspective might well be the lesser of
two evils, the coward's way out). But there is more going on, as we
know from that last look exchanged between the two Legilimens. We
don't know--only Snape and JKR know--what passed between Snape and the
dying mentor who had loved and trusted him. 


Sherry now:

Again, we don't know if Dumbledore was dying, terminal and unable to be
cured by the potion.  Snape, in my opinion, did indeed take the coward's way
out, if nothing else.  as Sirius would have said, he should have died,
rather than betray the one who had so loved and trusted him.  The fact that
he chose to live and to murder Dumbledore instead, makes him evil all the
way to me.


Carol Said:

Things are not as they seem. This is not ESE!Snape casting an AK at
the hated Dumbledore (when have we seen any indication that he hated
Dumbledore) and unconcernedly carrying out a long-cherished desire to
murder him for "glory" and power. This is Snape, careful and
inscrutable as ever until the moment when his (self?)hatred and
revulsion (at the deed he must do?) are revealed on his face: Snape,
the actor. Snape, the double or triple agent whose loyalties still
remain in question. There is nothing black and white or obvious about
it, unless, like Harry, we see through the eyes of prejudice and
hatred. 


Sherry now:

i guess I see through the eyes of prejudice and hatred then.  Though in my
own defense, i tried, until that moment to believe in mean but still good
Snape.  Dumbledore trusted him, so he must have been good.  I was shocked
and horrified by the events on the tower, even though I didn't ever like
Snape.  i still didn't want him to be ESE.  But for me, there's never an
excuse to commit murder, coldly, casually, kill the one person who trusted
you.  We don't know if Snape hated Dumbledore or not.  We were led to
believe in his change of heart because of Dumbledore, and we have no way of
knowing what he has been truly feeling all these years.  i just know that if
someone walked up and without hesitation shot a loved one of mine, I'd never
be convinced of the rightness or nobility or courage of such an act, no
matter what the excuse.  Harry is completely justified in his feelings, in
my opinion.  


Carol said:

Harry himself is now sidetracked from his destined task of defeating
and destroying Lord Voldemort by a personal hatred and desire for
vengeance. But as Snape tells him (in his characteristically sarcastic
and arrogant way), Harry must not use the Unforgiveable Curses. He
must not let hatred and vengeance conquer him. He must not take the
path that Snape himself took as a youth, wherever his loyalties now
lie. He must not be tempted by the Dark Arts. He must remain pure, and
to do that, he must close his mind to anger and hatred and the desire
for vengeance. Love, not hatred, will conquer Voldemort. And Snape, I
think, knows this and is trying to convey this message to Harry, not
only in their confrontation near the end of HBPbut through the faked
AK. It's the final lesson that Harry must learn before he destroys the
Horcruxes and defeats Voldemort: Appearances can be and often are
deceiving. Dumbledore was right to trust Severus Snape.

Carol


Sherry now:

And of course, I see it a totally different way.  In fact, I find the
treachery of Snape to be one of JKR's more brilliant twists.  It's evident
in the way so many people are coming up with theories and ideas to prove
that it can't be so.  I admire her so much because of this.  However it
turns out, she has done something amazing through the death of Dumbledore by
Snape.  As for Snape trying to teach Harry at the end, including by the non
AK that killed Dumbledore, I would have thought Snape was smarter than that.
Again, as I have asked before among others who have asked the same thing, if
this was a plan between Dumbledore and Snape, why oh why didn't they tell
Harry in advance?  That was poor planning in the extreme, and I'd have
thought both men were more intelligent than that to leave such an important
detail out of things.  With the history of hatred between Snape and Harry,
it was ridiculous to plot this thing and then leave Harry to believe what he
believes.  And even if it wasn't a true AK, the fact still stands, that
unless someone else secretly pulled it off, Snape murdered Dumbledore.  No,
Snape is not and maybe never was Dumbledore's man, and Dumbledore, who
admits to being able to make huge mistakes, made the biggest one of his life
by trusting Snape.  just my opinion, of course.

Sherry