Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs )

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 137255


Valky:
I like Last Judgement Love, a lot. Because it *is* terrifying.

Geoff:
We've had this sort of discussion more than once in the past. I fail
to see how you can write off certainly sacrifice and loyalty as
sentimental.

A long way back, in message 110643, I wrote this:

"I think this takes us back to the old question of what do we mean by
love? The word is a catch-all. "I love you", "I love strawberries and
cream", "Don't you just love the way he scores points over the other
guy?"

Jen: 
I talked about compassionate love at one point on this thread,
feeling Dumbledore symbolizes this. And Saraquel replied: "To me,
Last Judgement Love (for want of a better phrase) is the highest
form of compassion....It destroys evil in the soul, leaving it pure,
and in knowledge of its true nature, rather than damming it to
eternal torment."

Valky:
I am glad that Saraquel put it into those words for us, I didn't feel
all that comfortable trying to describe in in my own words, they would
have been quite less brilliant I think but I'd have been trying to
make them mean much the same as that.
The words pure, unhidden and honest came to mind. And I think whats
really telling us this in the HP series is the way JKR points out that
there isn't anyone without anything to hide, (save Lily for now... but
that may change before too long, we can't take it for granted that
she'll stay perfect) but one big difference between the good major
characters and the bad major characters is that when the good major
characters are faced with their dirty laundry (oh now that might be
where I should look at Snivelly's pants ... oops digression back to
the point) such as Sirius when he is faced by Sirius about the
Pensieve incident and DD admitting his mistakes, James when he
realises that Snape is in mortal danger, and Harry when he's faced
with the results of his bad deed toward Draco, these characters are
faced with something similar to the Agape, or Judgement love that
we're talking about from within themselves. They cannot hide from it,
and many of the major canon good things they have done are based
almost wholly on the fact that they *don't try* to hide from it. 

This is something I have tried to put forward in defense of James
before, regarding his actions in the Pensieve. And it relates to the
name Snivellus and to James and Sirius contempt for Snape and (albeit
overdone) sense of self righteouness about their own actions. On the
basis of this theme of humility toward Agape, which I have long
believed draws a strong underline throughout the series, I have
campaigned that James and Sirius *thought* 1 that they were right and
2 that their choices overall demonstrated them to have a greater sense
of righteousness and humility than Snape even while they were stupid
arrogant bullying toerags. In my defense before anyone gets feisty ;D
I have always maintained that they we *wrong wrong wrong* about it,
but they stood anyhow on the same principle that caused James to save
Snape and Sirius to remain ever loyal to his best friends to the point
where he will have sacrificed himself for them. And I think the DD
knew that they were shakily standing on this principle hence why he
would often seem to not be punishing them severely enough in Snape's
young eyes, because DD saw them as needing a firm guidance on that
principle, not a dressing down of it. 

<g> If you've read to here, without me having offended some of your
long held views on certain characters, then you're probably wondering
*how* the bullying could have in any way or shape seemed to the boys
themselves to be revealing better character than Snivellus. I realise
I lost a lot of people who take a long line on bullying = bad full
stop about two paragraphs back, so I'm assuming that most people
reading here would be at least partially interested in the deeper
goings on in the pensieve. So here again is my take on it.

Sirius and James give Snape the name Snivellus because they see him as
a Sniveller. A Sniveller in the same sense of the contemptible
behaviour of Peter Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack. ie the :I didn't,
my old friends... *LIE*,  I couldn't I am too powerless against it all
to be the bad guy line that "snivelling" Peter takes in the shack to
save his own skin. All of us find this highly contemptible in Peter,
and Sirius is no exception.  At last after HBP I *finally* have canon
backing for this... (Thanks JKR!) and that backing is in Harry's
detentions with Snape. The James and Sirius v Snape feud went on for
many years. I will always take Sirius as honest! (so shoot me ;P) so
when he says Snape never missed a chance to hex James, then I believe
it. Snape was every bit a willing participant in the feud. JKR says
the feeling was mutual and canon suggests that so were the actions.
And *yet* who is it that was man enough to face the music for his
wrongdoings? Who spent week after week serving his detention and
admitting to himself, to his best friends and, even to the love of his
life, that he was picking on Snape a bit much... well that was James
Potter of course. And who of the two, was never in detention although
guilty of the same and possibly worse, seemed so completely feckless
that a girl came across the lawn to defend him, and even some 20 years
later still utterly denies he was anything but perfectly innocent of
it all so much that he'd rather shift the blame to an innocent child
than face the *truth* about himself.. well that would be Severus
Snape. (A Sniveller)

And therein is my point about the agape love being a strong and very
*not* mushy theme through the series. Those that can open themselves
to it, are eminiently able to turn the leaf and become better, and the
one that will always hide from it is the one who doesn't know the
power of this truth. 

If any Snape lovers are still reading, this is the reason I have for
believing that Snape can be redeemed again. For the first time ever in
the series I did see tiny glimpses of him in HBP *finally* facing his
own truth and walking the path he laid for himself bravely, like a man
ready to open himself to this Agape - Judgement love.  There was also
evidence in the potions book to me that Sevvie was always capable of
it, he just had chosen to take the easy over what was right instead
for some time. but I'll save that for another post.


Jen:
The point I made about all the good Dumbledore did for many people
and creatures is really only half of the equation for compassionate
love. I think we saw the other half in the cave, after Dumbledore
drank the potion. I feel certain he was reliving the most terrible
times in his life, times when he made mistakes and misjudgements
about people and situations, leading to people or creatures being
tortured or killed. It reminded me of a quote by Milan Kundera in
The Unbearable Lightness of Being: "For nothing is heavier than
compassion. Not even one's own pain weighs so heavy as the pain one
feels with someone, for someone, a pain intensified by the
imagination and prolonged by a hundred echos."

<edited and rearrnged>

Dumbledore tries to convince Harry in the Horcrux chapter how
*little* it matters that Voldemort is more skilled. It's sort of
like Fleur saying "I am good-looking enough for both of us, I
theenk." Well, Voldemort is powerful enough for both of them, I
theenk, and Harry only needs to follow the course he and Dumbledore
started on and Voldemort will mess up the rest :). In his ignorance,
Voldemort just keeps handing Harry the weapons of his own demise,
one after the other.

Valky:
Yes ! I absolutely love these points Jen! And it's taken me a bit to
stop giggling about theenking :P 
This wholeness of compassion is clearly why someone like Harry,
although determined to stop Voldemort, won't be using an AK. But
that's just fine because Voldemorts is deadly enough for both of them.
Perhaps what Dumbledore realises is that but for the grace of Harry
neither, perhaps noone, would survive Voldie rampagingly trying to
live forever. GH is a good example to stretch some canon from. Notice
how when faced with the prospect of death Voldemort has a tendency to
destroy everything within wands reach of himself. Somehow, he manages
to bring a whole house down around him! Surely if it wasn't for the
amazing Love that Harry's parents had filled the air with before this
it might have been a bigger landslide.  And now, Voldie's 'greater and
more terrible' than before. The chance of  larger radius of collateral
damage forsaken for his wanton self preservation could be what this
means. 

To me, that seems to say that in vanquishing Voldemort, perhaps
Harry's main job is not to carry out the actual killing, but to be the
one thing that stands between Voldies determination to destroy
everything so he can live, and the WW itself. Voldemort is his own
cause of death, and Harry the reason that everyone else lives. Fairly
obvious to say, that I like SSSusans take on it too. ;D (And perhaps
as SSSusan suggested before, this could be one of the 12 uses for
Dragons blood. )

I also do agree that Voldemort hands Harry the weapons of his demise,
and the one that I think simply *must* figure in this equation is
Harry's all important blood. Hey! I've just thought of a way the gleam
can be wedged into this somehow, is it possible that while Voldie
flails desperatley in meltdown destructive mode to survive whatever
demon he brings upon himself, that in his haste he tries to save *his
blood* forgetting that it's in Harry, and Harry in his deep love for
everyone just stands there letting it hit him thinking, at least as
long as I can stand here I can save just one more soul. Through all
this somehow, Voldie doesn't realise that he's keeping Harry alive
with all his superfluous effort, and hence not ridding himself of his
own doom, but sending it to himself (his blood) by sending it at
Harry. Ok so it's a bit deep and convoluted, but I could refine it.. 

I should probably answer other points in a different post, later. 

Just before I go..

Carol:
P.S. Note to Valky: Didn't you suggest that some of the curses on the
Horcruxes might have been Snape's inventions? I don't see how that's
possible since he was about eleven when Voldemort returned from his
wanderings, transformed beyond recognition, and began recruiting
followers. All of the Horcruxes (with the possible exception of
Nagini) would already have been created at that point. 


Valky:
Oh yeah, good point. I threw it in offhand without thinking much about
it, so I wasn't at all attached to the theory. Thanks for pointing out. :D