Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After

[jlv230]

No: HPFGUIDX 137371

> davenclaw
> Possibly the easiest way to understand why the "single timeline 
> theory" doesn't work is this: when TT!Harry "enters" the timeline
> at 6pm, he doesn't appear from nowhere.  He comes from the future.
> He has a memory of what happened 6pm - 9pm or whatever the time
> frame is.  In other words, that time period has already happened
> once. Would the "single timeline" theorists actually posit that
> 10pm has already happened at 6pm?  But if not, how can TT!Harry
> have a memory of a time period that hasn't happened yet?
> 
> Imagine drawing the famous time "line" with a loop from 9pm to
> 6pm. As you draw this line, you first have to draw 6pm - 9pm before
> you can draw the loop back to 6pm.  This is how the time progresses
> as well.  Note that it isn't a straight line coming from nowhere 
> entering the timeline at 6pm.  It's a loop from a time that has 
> already been reached.  6pm - 9pm takes place before time traveling 
> occurs.

JLV now (groans ensue...):
I am sure this point isn't canon related, it is that you are pointing 
out what you regard to be an inconsistency in the single-timeline 
theory. I think that the inconsistency you see is not a logical one, 
rather it is inconsistent with a notion you have of causation and 
determinism, neither of which you have supported with canon. I am 
sorry you can't make sense of the idea that something at 10pm can 
affect something at 6pm, but as others can understand this concept I 
can only reassure you that it does make sense. We are not mad. 
Promise ;-)

Your point seems to be that a `future' event may affect a `past' 
event on the single-timeline theory. Gasp! You say this is 
impossible, and I say that this is the whole point of time-travel!

Myself and other posters have pointed out that the dual-timeline 
theory you propose is *logically* inconsistent, which I regard to be 
the worst sort of inconsistency (as anything follows from a 
contradiction). So we prefer the single-timeline theory. But not just 
from this logical perspective – it is also from a canon one.

Note that there is *no* canon to say that the past happened one way 
and then it was `changed' in PoA (you said this yourself). You have 
also posted that the reason for this must be that JKR didn't consider 
the original events and missed them out:

> Davenclaw:
> The only hold with this [dual timeline] theory is that JKR probably
> didn't consider and certainly never wrote what events took place
> before time traveling changed things.

JLV:
I say that, from the perspective of reasoning alone, I don't even 
think that the word `change' really can apply to the past - how can 
the past *have been* one way *in the past* but *now be* something 
different? I don't think that even makes sense. In what past was the 
past different exactly?

Actually, as I can hear you shouting, the answer to this is in the 
books that the previous pages of the book could count as `past' in 
Harry's world. That is, in fact, how dual-timelines can appear in 
science fiction at all. If you remove the book context, the timelines 
fall apart *but* (I can hear you shouting) that doesn't mean that JKR 
couldn't write her book this way! Of course it doesn't – after all 
there are loads of books that do. All I am saying is that she 
*didn't* write it this way. In your own way, you actually said so too.

All I can say is that I really do think that JKR is writing from the 
single-timeline perspective. I support this by again saying that 
there is *only one* timeline given in the books. Also, allowing the 
past to be changed would allow JKR to re-write pages of the books 
and `change' what happened on them. I don't believe she will ever do 
this – for canon reasons. If she could do this, she could have 
Hermione go to her missed charms lesson, she could save Sirius and 
Dumbledore and kill Snape as a schoolboy. It is explicitly stated 
that magic cannot bring people back to life. The dual-timeline theory 
allows this to happen!

I also say that JKR (like most people in the world) has not studied 
time travel extensively so she throws in a few remarks that don't 
quite fit the action. You said so too. We can understand that this is 
very easy to do – time-travel is very difficult to understand as I 
think this debate demonstrates. But when JKR slipped up with Flint we 
just went `JKR made a mistake – she's only human', but with the time 
travel, we get huge debates! Perhaps I should get some perspective 
here... Oops! I suppose this is because this stuff is really meaty 
and interesting...

ANd Davenclaw, I know full well that what I've said isn't going to 
change your mind on this matter, but please understand that I am not 
going to change mine until JKR rewrites the past - and this is the 
very thing that you have said JKR has omitted to do! I hope you can 
forgive me for not changing my mind. Yet.

Of course, this is all Just My Opinion.
JLV xx (Who wishes she could roll completely off topic again and talk 
about the mysteries of the universe... sigh)