[HPforGrownups] Re: Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams

[Kathryn Jones]

No: HPFGUIDX 137553

vmonte wrote:
> KJ wrote:
> I don't believe that Dumbledore has ever in his life done anything
> that would make these memories his and it would certainly
> explain why Dumbledore knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where Snape's
> loyalties lay.
> 
> vmonte:
> I hope your right, but I was just thinking that Dumbledore's words 
> could be JKR's way of giving DD his last confession.
> 
> Dumbledore has been set-up by JKR to be almost Saint-like from the
> first book. But is he?

> We are so busy considering everyone else's motives that we never even
> look into Dumbledore's role in all this. Where did he come from, and
> what is his stake in all this?

> Vivian
> "Snape is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

Kathy writes:

      I think you make some mighty fine points. I think in a comparison 
of good and evil, Dumbledore and Voldemort are just as single-minded in 
their pursuit of their goals. Voldemort makes use of people.  Dumbledore 
makes use of people. Dumbledore uses a carrot and Voldemort uses a 
stick. We have been allowed on several occasions to feel Dumbledore's 
power when he is angry, and when Harry presses him, he can be as snarky 
as Snape, and as arrogant. Other times, he is so sweet, ie "I'm with 
you". Who is the real Dumbledore?
      I think, realistically speaking, "good" must be as determined and 
persistent as "evil" and as willing to do what must be done to further 
the cause. We have been assured in the book that Dumbledore is too 
"noble" to stoop to the same kinds of magic as Voldemort. To me, 
Dumbledore, at 150 years, has learned many hard lessons. He has chosen 
to support the WW rather than himself, he has had a lengthy education, 
much life experience and has gained much wisdom through his life. He is 
a warrior, rather than a political entity, and is more a general and 
strategist than researcher. He has a purpose, which is to protect the WW 
and make it a safe and secure way of life.
      Voldemort, on the other hand, does not have the experience of 
Dumbledore, the empathy, the manipulative ability, or any particular 
purpose other than destruction. He desires power as an end in itself 
without any defining goal in having it.
      While we are expected to see Dumbledore as good, I think we are 
also meant to see him as the person who has put Harry on a path to 
Dumbledore's goal. He left him at Dursley's, he gave him an invisibility 
cloak, he was not around in PS/SS or Cos to support Harry until after it 
was all over, his only role in PoA was to set Harry and Hermione a life 
threatening task to spring Sirius. I also believe that there would have 
been something Dumbledore could have done to remove Harry from the 
Triwaizard Tournament but chose instead to leave him stuck out there as 
bait.  In OotP, he chose to avoid Harry, keep Harry in the dark, go 
missing again until the last minute, leave him in Snape's and Umbridge's 
gentle hands, and see how it all shook out. He doesn't tell anybody the 
whole of what is going on, is not emotionally close to anyone and 
considers death to perhaps be an inconvenience of timing at this stage 
of his life. I suspect he thinks that way of the lives and deaths of his 
fellow Order members. They are all chess pieces. I really feel as though 
Snape, Trlawney, and Harry have all been treated like chess pieces all 
through the books and Snape just got the worst screwing of his life.
      With regard to the cave speeches, I find it hard to believe that 
Dumbledore has ever done anything evil, and at 150 years he has learned 
to live with past mistakes and has already forgiven himself. To me, it 
really sounds like Snape, who was sincerely remorseful, "didn't want to 
do it any more", and had a lot more to be sorry as Hell for. Just my 
opinion of course. Thanks for an interesting and civil discussion.
KJ