The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 137851

> Valky:
> AS to this Iron-Clad reason for trusting Snape. I am trying very
> hard to dig in and uncover it at last, but the closer I get, the
> more it seems to me that Dumbledore's Iron Clad reason didn't
> include expecting Snape to behave himself and stay out of trouble.
> In fact it actually seems to me that DD based his reason on the
> guarantee, almost, that Sevvie *would* bury himself again.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm. I'm going to have to disagree with this theory, because it
also limits the amount of trust Dumbledore would have for Snape. If
Dumbledore merely "trusted Snape to be Snape" (to paraphrase Samuel
L. Jackson in "Jackie Brown") then he's not really trusting Snape at
all. 

Valky now:
Yes Betsy, I agree with that. Which is why I am not actually saying
that Dumbledores trust *hinges* on Snape being unable to avoid falling
prey to his own evil, but rather just that DD *doesn't exclude* it.
Yes I see that limits how much trust DD would have in Sevvie. To me,
it limits DD to the point where he knows that Snape will do as he
feels is right, as anyone, and this will include using Dark Magic or
pecadillos to further himself towards the perceived end, though DD
would hope that he had managed to advise and guide him sufficiently in
the art of more selfless ways to achieve ends. Snape is clearly
Slytherin in that the end is of higher relative importance than the
means, so to much a degree DD would need to concede that it was is
vain to teach him to give his means much thought. But in the
quintessential degree, DD trusts in Snapes ends, his choices seem to
reveal that at the clinching moment he doesn't do evil. 1. Lupin got
to finish his last year of school, although Snape had the tools within
his hands to destroy it for him. It's hard to believe that DD would
claim he insists absolutely on leaving free will to itself if he took
it from Sevvie at this moment. 2. Dumbledore, James and Lily, knew
about Voldemorts plan for Harry before he carried it out. Snape freely
gave enough information to help provide Harry Lily and James with a
year of togetherness when they might have had Harry snatched from them
at birth instead. So there we see that Snapes choices reveal something
more than the pattern of duping himself,  carrying out nasty little
malefactions, and working for the bad guy if it suits his short term
purpose. Additionally it reveals, that he cannot contribute to Evil in
the end of the game. 


Betsy:
And the evidence of the books points to Dumbledore trusting
Snape possibly above all other Order members, IMO. It looks like
Dumbledore shared the existence of the horcruxes with Snape.
Something shared only with Harry, Ron and Hermione. That's a huge
amount of trust to be giving out to someone Dumbledore thinks
suffers from a "dark arts addiction" (Do we have any canon
supporting the existence of that sort of malady, out of curiosity?)
or a tendency to behave badly if left to his own devices.

Valky:
I believe that this is probably less so. I doubt that DD *shared* with
Snape these secrets as in giving them. The chance is rather more high
that clever little Sevvie worked out a lot of what was going on for
himself. This is one of Snape's great strengths, he is excellent at
Logic, which Hermione says in PS/SS seems to be very rare among
wizards. Snape as exposed to the both sides of the game, and hence was
privy to a ot of information. In a sense you're right nyway, because
DD would know that Snape was quick on the uptke and that if he let him
see enough he'd become firly well advised about what was going on.
That *is* a lot of trust. But we need to take into account DD's own
prodigious cleverness, the way he reads Toms inner workings is a good
example. In the same way DD does this, it's likely he also has a good
grip on the limits to what Snape can figure out with Logic. So certain
things if he keeps them well enough to himself, Snape won't
understand. Leaving Snape with an unfinished formula in total, coupled
with his certain tendency to sink himself into denial when he doesn't
like the facts. All in all, Snape could then know *a lot* but have
less understanding. 
Then again I could backflip on that and say that he didn't give Snape
more information than the other OOTP mmbers because he trusted him
more but rather because he *couldn't* trust him an uninformed Snape.
Since Sevvie is such a thinker, and would likely put his mind to any
small clues till he reached a satisfactory conclusion, it was
*necessary* to give him *extra* understanding in order to prevent him
jumping to a dangerous conclusion.

As for your question about canon evidence to Snapes maladies. The Dark
Arts addiction thing was I think well covered in HBP. It' not such an
addiction per se, than it is, I think, an intense admiration for the
sheer power of the Dark Arts. I think that this is covered also well
by Hermiones inference to Harry that Snape sounded like him. The
similarity is that Harry has a healthy respect for how incrediby
powerful Dark Arts are, while Snape in the same way has respect for
the superiority of this power, but it is not quite as healthy.  
The canon for Snape behaving badly when left to his own devices, are
also written well into the series. Sevvie's behaviour towards the
Marauders it seems comes to a full head when the older DE students,
who are to some degree Sevvies companions while they are there that
much I am sure of,  are no longer at Hogwarts. When he rises through
the Heirarchy of the DE and becomes a most favoured servant of
Voldemort, again he is at his own devices and he gets himself in a
stick there too. Finally in HBP, DD hands him the DADA job, which is
in the sense that I spoke of, setting him free to follow his natural
path without a guiding hand, and before he can even blink he's gotten
himself into trouble. The pattern is definitely there. The problem is
stringing it together in a coherent and believable fashion.



Valky:
<snipping>
> This goes to why DD tried to keep SS from the DADA position all
> those years. Knowing that Snape would get himself into strife if
> he began wandering that path again, DD (maybe like he'd hoped with
> Harry) that he could help to spare Snape a few more moments in
> the 'sun' before his inevitable third strike in the hell of his
> own creations. Possibly, as he did with Harry, he felt he had been
> too soft on Sevvie too long, and while Sevvie could have been
> facing his demons at last, he was safe under the watchful eye of
> Dumbledore instead who tried desperately to spare him his
> inevitable fate one more time and then one more time again.

Jen: Dumbledore's fatal flaw in the end, trying to spare the ones he
loves. Sirius in OOTP was another canon example, as well as the most
poignant example in HBP, Draco. And I think Draco on the tower
symbolized ALL the students Dumbledore watched over the years who
struggled because of circumstances and beliefs to make the right
choice in the end. It's easy to love and attempt to protect Harry
from harm because he's 'Dumbledore's man through and through', like
his parents, but to love Draco and try to spare him a fate he
brought about through his own ignorance and family ties (much like
Snape, I suspect)....those precious moments may have cost Dumbledore
his life.

Valky:
I am so glad you agree with me on that Jen. Yes I think there is
definitely more to the consideration that DD tries to spare his loved
ones their pain. And Snape could well be an excellent example of how
Dumbledores flaw pervades his life more extensively than we realised. 
It's very beautiful too I think. Another example is Hagrid, who did
actually get *himself *into the strife Tom used against him, he did
break laws by keeping Aragog, and Hagrid could never really help
himself but love unlovable creatures. Again Dumbledore intervenes to
spare Hagrid the pain of his mistake, Hagrid could, of course, have
made another way through life and given up his love of creatures to
cement himself a more *acceptble* place in the WW. But DD loved him
just as he was, and found a place for him in Hogwarts. All the while
Hagrid remained his flawed self, breeding illegal hybrid creatures and
almost losing everything over his love of Buckbeak and Norbert.
the thing is that Dumbledore was in many ways, very right about
Hagrid, the true Hagrid is more valuable to the world than one who had
the fire beat out of him by silly laws preventing wizards from trying
to commune with Hippogryffs and Centaurs. Acromantula yes, wizards in
general can probably do without too much contact but Aragogs venom was
useful apparently, so it's not so wrong that *someone* in the WW can
get close to them. And Hagrid bought his brother to Dumbledore's
funeral, which has to count for something. 
Dumbeldores flaw was I think, inescapable for him. So although it does
seem it cost him his life in the end, there is so much reason to
understand that he would have preferred it that way than ever deny
someone his love.



Valky wrote:
> I know this diverts from canon, but I have this incredible hunch
> that Snape became intensely curious about these defenses Harry
possessed,
> which were, *shock Gasp*, better than his!
<SNIP>

Ceridwen:
Ooh! Tell me more!

Valky:
I am glad that Betsy asked the question above, because I had hoped
that someone would use a strong voice to force me to refine the point.
Ceridwen hs said that she will be hunting the canon for more clues.
Which I already did. And there are a couple of fascinating twists on
this theory. The first is that in OOtP Harry really does dreadfully at
Occlumency, except for three crucial moments when he pushes Snape
away. The first, not very strong, is when he produces a stinging hex
to prevent Snape seeing his feelings for Cho. Snape doesn't really
appear to see any significance of this protection Harry has for his
feelings regarding loved ones.  the second time is even more weak,
when Harry protectes his feelings about Cedrics Death. He fought the
Legilimency, but really not well at all.  The third however is the
single most interesting. This is the one when Harry breaks right into
Snapes mind. This is the one which I think, if any, caught Snapes
curiosity. And this particular memory was the Memory of Harry
defending Sirius from the Dementors. So we have the best clues there
really if this theory is going to go anywhere at all. Harry breaks in
to Snape's mind with extraordinary purposefulness, using a memory
where he is *defending* his Godfather Sirius, *against* the dementors
in POA - The dementors that *Snape* himself wished to set on Sirius. 
In a fascinating turn, Snape seems even more angry at Harry than he
was when Harry intruded on his mind, when he *doesn't do it again*.

The second last point that I would like to consider about this is that
in the HBP detentions with Snape we are *told* that Snape "clearly
planned" a regular jolt in Harry's stomach that meant he'd just read
something about his father and Sirius. Which goes quite strongly to
the notion that Snape was studying Harry's reactions. Snape was
definitely IMHO *studying* Harry from the moment he arrived at
Hogwarts, so what he was studying in Harry in detentions, I am pretty
sure had something to do with the "jolt in his stomach". 

The final piece of evidence that comes to mind is that Harry says to
Hermione and Ron that he wishes Snape would get himself another
"Guinea Pig." Is there more to that than meets the eye?






Valky:
> So here I offer, as far as I can gather, the basis for DD's trust
> of Snape. Dumbledore trusts that while he has a firm hand on the
> steering wheel he can keep Severus from tangling himself up in
> evil, And Severus is, in this way, capable of immense good despite
> his terrible demeanour. Once DD lets go of the wheel, he knows he
> is setting the bird free. He knows that he is leaving Severus to
> his own devices completely, which will in turn mean that someday
> soon down the track Sevvie is going to get himself in the same
> position he was twice ago faced with the consequences of his awful
> deeds. And it is this that Dumbledore trusts most fully, most
> remarkably, he trusts that Snape cannot act evilly in this moment.

Jen: 
But you left out the ending! Tell me the ending to this fairy tale,
which track did he take this time? Was the third time the charm or
the curse? Did he make the right decision, in the end? Is he more
like Draco or Tom?

Valky:
I wish I knew. Naturally it has to do with Harry this time, and I
think to really read the pattern we have to know better about the
Prank, than we do. Snape so far has received two redeeming mercies,
the first from James, and the second from Dumbledore. The third will
naturally come from Harry if at all. Speculating on Harry's character
I think we can pretty safely bet that Snape might be in for a charm,
but again its hard to know if, although Harry would show mercy, would
it be a curse on Sevvie anyway brought on by his own evil.

This time I think he has taken the track when he took the Unbreakable
Vow, this is just MO, leaving that in the end, Snape did not actually
*do evil* by killing Dumbledore, but he certainly got himself into
that position by evil means. So I think perhaps we have seen the fall
of Snape play out entirely, which will leave it up to Harry to see the
something in Snape that his father and Dumbledore did. 
This we do know, Snape was *trying* to get James expelled by going to
the Willow, but James saw through to something else as well and saved
him, and we know that Snape had already done the worst he could to
play his part in destroying Harry's family before he came to
Dumbledore for help and DD too saw through the evilness of the deed to
something else in Snape and also was merciful. 

So to follow the pattern, Harry will see through the evil of Snapes
deed to *a* something else. And he will probably show Snape a form of
mercy, likely saving him in some way.

But I can't really squeeze anything more out of it yet. Oh to have the
prank story too....

Valky