HBP The memory in the cave... is Snape's.

[Richard]

No: HPFGUIDX 137982

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spotsgal" <Nanagose at a...> 
wrote:
> Merprisen:
> > Snape saved the information from the prophecy in an
> > attempt to protect his own family from death.  Voldemort later 
finds
> > this information out from using legilimency against Snape and is
> > furious with Snape that he withheld it.  Voldemort then 
interprets 
> > the prophecy to mean Snape's child will potentially be the one 
with 
> > the power to destroy the Dark Lord.  The punishment for this 
> > betrayal was death for Snape's wife and child.
> 
> Christina:
> 
> That's actually a really well-thought out theory (and it 
incorporates 
> a lot of unanswered questions), although I'm not sure how much I 
buy 
> into it on the whole.  I can't see Voldemort being even *that* 
> merciful- I doubt he ever would have trusted Snape again, 
certainly 
> not enough to accept him back when he returned late at the end of 
> GoF.  But...I love the idea of Snape's family being in danger.  I 
> strongly believe that the reason DD is so sure of Snape's loyalty 
> DOES have something to do with Snape's family (although I always 
> theorized it had to do with Irma Pince, who I think is Snape's 
mom).  
> Your theory also hits on something that has bothered me for a 
long, 
> long time:
> 
> (from JKR's rumor bin)
> Rumor: Luna is Snape's daughter
> JKR: This is a most tantalising idea, but no, Mr. Lovegood, the 
> editor of 'the Quibbler', really is Luna's father and Snape does 
not 
> have a daughter.
> 
> Doesn't it seem odd that she says "Snape does not have a 
daughter?"  
> I would think that it would be much more natural to just 
say, "Snape 
> doesn't have any children."
> 
> Another quote that is relevant to your theory:
> 
> One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to 
fall 
> in love. 
> JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? 
> That's a very horrible idea. 
> 
> She chooses to answer the question by saying, "Who would want 
Snape 
> in love with them?" rather than saying something like, "Snape 
doesn't 
> have the capacity to love," or just an outright, "No, I don't 
think 
> so."  She says "That's a very horrible idea," but is she referring 
to 
> the idea that Snape could be in love with someone, or the reaction 
> that person would have (I hope I'm getting my point through there)?
> 
> 
> Christina

Richard here:
I think it is one of JKR's strengths that she leaves so many 
questions open in interviews, specifically so that we can speculate 
about such things as whether the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape so 
much was the death of Snape's postulated son.  I think it an 
excellent theory, but do caution that JKR is now well known for 
throwing some very good curve balls.

More to the point of the possibility that the potion in the basin in 
the cave was comprised of memories, and specifically Snape's, I 
don't think we've hit on a good theory yet, just a number of 
plausible ones.  For example, I don't think it at all necessary that 
the potion be comprised of nor contain memories, and think it would 
be quite odd for a specific person's memories (in this case Snape's) 
to be contained there.  I think it more likely that one of the 
components would be a potion with an effect much like that of a 
dementor: you relive your worst memories as if they are real and 
present.  That would certainly tend to stop people from drinking any 
further, and for a very dark wizard like Voldemort would have real 
appeal.  After all, I doubt that he would believe any really 
powerful wizard who managed to get that far wouldn't have some 
horrid memories that could be used against him.

So, here are a pair of possibilities.  First, Dumbledore's worst 
memory is his experience of Snape's memory of HIS family's deaths, 
due to the fact that Dumbledore knows he played a part in those 
deaths ... and this memory shared through a pensieve is the reason 
Dumbledore trusted Snape.  The interesting twist here is that it can 
still leave Snape hating BOTH Dumbledore and Voldemort, since he 
might also see Dumbledore as indirectly responsible for those 
deaths, for whatever reason, and Voldemort directly responsible.  
Thus, he could murder Dumbledore with hate, etc., on his face, yet 
still be determined to do in Voldemort via Harry's power that 
Voldemort "knows not of."

Second, what Dumbledore is experiencing isn't related to Snape at 
all, but is a memory of Dumbledore's from the time of Grindelwald 
(?), or before, and is his own worst memory.  It may well be part of 
the personal history that lead Dumbledore to be quite as "good" as 
he is.  (And for those who still believe in one or another sinister 
theory about Dumbledore, check out JKR's interviews were she talks 
about how she sees Dumbledore.)

As for the idea that what Dumbledore is experiencing is Snape's 
memory of his family's deaths, there are some serious problems.  
Would Voldemort really trust ANYONE whose family he had murdered 
right before that person's eyes?  And wouldn't the chapter in OotP 
entitled "Snape's Worst Memory" have been horribly mistitled if this 
were Snape's memory of his family's deaths?

I think it possible that Voldemort WOULD trust such a person, IF he 
believed that person as cold-hearted as he is himself.  He seems to 
see empathy and love as weaknesses in others, and not subtle and 
powerful motivators and sources of energy.  Still, it is, I think, a 
bit of a stretch.

The more serious problem is that chapter title.  I think we only saw 
a fragment of that much longer memory, and the worst parts were 
probably further along in the memory than Harry reached.  But, what 
would make it Snape's worst, apart from seeing this as the point at 
which he started to lose whatever attachment he had with Lily?  
Perhaps Lily subsequently "ripped" Snape for trying to use a really 
dangerous hex on James, and turned icy towards Snape from that 
point ... after smiling and laughing at James.  Since I see it as 
only a fragment that in its totality is Snape's worst memory, rather 
than the sum total of it, I don't think we will know WHY it is his 
worst until some point in Book 7 ... where we will find out why it 
is, and why Dumbledore trusted Snape due in part to this memory in 
its extended and contextually correct form.

Snape could well hate Harry for being James' son rather than HIS 
son, and still be bound to protect Harry both due to his blood debt 
to James and his feelings for Lily.

Another cut on this is that Dumbledore experienced Snape's memory of 
LILY'S murder, which ties in with the last two paragraphs.  
Voldemort would still NOT know he shouldn't trust Snape at all, and 
Dumbledore would know (from having shared this memory with Snape) 
that Voldemort is dead wrong for retaining such trust ... even as he 
fails to see that he himself should not trust Snape, who also blames 
Dumbledore in part for Lily's death.

Again, I think it is one of JKR's greatest strengths that she can 
leave so much room for speculation.  It is going to be an agonizing 
two (or more) years until we finally get some of these dangling ends 
tied off.  Let us all hope and pray that nothing happens to JKR 
before she settles all of these debates.

Richard, who thinks Snape can be evil in his own right, yet still be 
a mortal enemy of Voldemort.