Dumbledore's trust for Severus Snape.

[unicorn_72]

No: HPFGUIDX 138073

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" 
<hickengruendler at y...> wrote:
> 
> Finwitch:
>  
> > 
> > Because Dumbledore believed his story. That's it. There is no 
secret 
> > reason (although Tonks &co. feel more comfortable to belive 
there 
> > was), just that. Dumbledore trusted Severus Snape simply because 
> > Dumbledore is a trusting man. Because Dumbledore believes very 
firmly 
> > in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
> > 
>  
> Hickengruendler:
> 
> I disagree. I think this is what JKR wants us to believe, both in 
her 
> vague statements in her interviews and during Harry's thoughts in 
the 
> books, but this contradicts what we know about Dumbledore, IMO. He 
is 
> not that trusting. He didn't trust Tom Riddle. He might have given 
him 
> the benefit of a doubt, but he didn't trust him and decided to 
keep an 
> eye on him. He also didn't trust anyone of James' and Lily's 
friends. 
> Instead, he wanted to be their Secret Keeper himself, meaning that 
> although he still worked with them, he wasn't sure about either 
Sirius 
> or Remus or Peter. That means that he probably wants to believe 
the 
> best of everybody, but he is not foolish enough to expect it. 
> 
> And yet this man doesn't waver a second in his trust in someone 
who was 
> not only a Death Eater, but who also was as a student probably as 
much 
> in the Dark Arts as Tom Riddle was? I really don't think so. I 
still 
> believe Dumbledore knows more about Snape than we do, and that's 
why he 
> trusts him.
> 
> Hickengruendler

KarentheUnicorn's Reply:

I want to agree with Hicken, I just can't see Dumbledore being this 
stupid....and I know yes yes, I have read the book and Dumble says 
his mistakes tend to be huge compared to everyone else, but, I 
really haven't see him wrong a whole lot of the time. And the bit 
about Harry having to go it alone that JKR says in her interview, 
well, I still have a problem with that, in effect, Dumbledore has 
pushed the kids from the first book to do things alone without 
adults. HE gives them little hints but, for the most part he lets 
them do the dangerous stuff. The only time I really every can 
remember seeing Dumbledore in real action is in OOTP.

I will be disappointed if Dumbledore turned out to be this trusting, 
sorry, I get the idea that this makes him noble, and trusting, and 
so good, but, meh...He is my other favorite Character and it will 
totally distory his image in my mind and how I've though of him if 
he ends up being this gullable.

OK so it just seems the only real theory I can come up with, IF 
snape is fully evil, I would have to just think Dumbledore was using 
Snape, to help in the fall of Voldemort the first time. Dumbledore 
has said he came to him before the fall of Voldemort, but, somehow I 
am thinking maybe he didn't and maybe Snape was right at the 
Potter's house that night, either for evil, or to help. URG...is 
mixing my theories here but anyway....and probably rambling.

Say Snape is evil, he was evil when he went to try and get the DADA 
position, before the fall of Voldemort. Snape hears the prophecy 
takes it back to Voldemort.

Voldemort picks the potters, now, at this point I'm going from what 
Dumbledore says, he says Snape came to him and said he was sorry 
that the got picked. Some suggest it was because of Lily, but, at 
that time, Snape would still have the life debt to James, if he was 
evil, it could just as easily have been that which turned him to go 
to Dumbledore. Snape would know, James would die for Lily and Harry, 
so, if that happened then he would know he would never be able to 
repay his lifedebt to James because, I'm sure Snape would figure 
Voldemort is going to kill all three of the Potters.

So, we have Snape stuck between a rock and a hard place, so, Did he 
betray the dark lord over the life debt is what I keep wondering?

If this is true, I can see Dumbledore not trusting Snape, I just 
can't see Dumbledore falling for the I'm sorry they got picked etc. 
but anyway. Dumbledore seemed to know about the Life debt, he knew 
about it in book one, because he told Harry about it. Soooo...would 
Snape tell that to Dumbledore?.....hard to say really. Either Way, 
maybe Dumbledore didn't really trust Snape at first, and decided to 
let him on the staff, Use him in whatever way he could, and let 
Snape think he trusted him. Once Voldemort was defeated, he vouched 
for Snape, giving Snape a second chance, and having Snape on staff 
meant he would be able to keep an eye on Snape.....but only thing 
is, if Snape is so evil, why would he not try and start up his own 
deal, like Voldemort?? All those years and no hint of him even 
trying to become more than just a simple teacher?? OK, yes, I read 
chapter two, but even if it is as he claimed, he was staying where 
the DL put him....It seems if you are this evil and this powerful 
you would look for ways to improve yourself, and he had the Malfoy's 
for support if we are to believe their friendship...urg...my head is 
spinning LOL.

Now, some have suggested that Snape went to GH, and tried to warn 
James that Voldemort was going to find out....I can see this as an 
attempt to repay the life debt, but, in effect, I would think, 
wouldn't that be repaying it....If the person didn't listen would it 
still be your fault...Meh...I don't know. Plus I wouldn't think he 
would be able to find it for one thing, since it was a secret, and 
he would have to have been with Voldemort and Peter to know where 
the place was. So, this sorta gives a hint that if he was at GH, he 
would have had to been with Voldemort....so, this theory is sorta 
the Lily/Snape theory, that suggests that is the reason Voldemort 
offered Lily a chance to step aside.

Now, if Snape did in fact have a secret love for Lily, I would 
imagine if above was the case, then, Voldemort knows, and being the 
sick evil man Voldemort is, wouldn't he want to take Snape along, 
wouldn't he want Snape to witness him killing and torturing James-
Lily-Harry.

Meh, I think I'm getting to long winded here, But, if Dumbledore was 
doing a Keep your friends closer, but your Enemy's closer deal, 
well, it cost him his life.....but also, this would lead me to 
believe that some of the stuff I've seen in the book is true and 
Dumbledore is just as manipulative as the evil guys and I feel even 
worse for Harry being involved in the Wizarding World since, he 
should have explained to Harry up front from the beginning, if I 
were Harry, I would be equally mad at Dumbledore and everyone else 
in the WW for that matter if this is the case.

Plus the fact, I remember someone asking JKR in an interview why 
Dumbledore would let a teacher like Snape on the staff and she 
replies something like Dumbledore things that having a teacher like 
snape teaches the kids about life.....sorry I don't have the actual 
quote and am paraphrasing, but anyway. This leads me to believe 
Dumbledore knows how Snape is in class, this would suggest he would 
understand the things Harry/Neville/Griffendors/ went through while 
in Snape's class.....This would make me believe that Dumbledore 
isn't as nice as some of you think....of course the arugment is 
still was what Snape did in class Abuse, but thats another argument 
for another thread.

Is Uni Disappointed in Dumbledore....Yes, even more so than Snape-if 
Mr. S turns out to be pure evil.

KarentheUnicorn