The Importance of the Houses

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 138126

> >>Phoenixgod:
> <snip>
> ...I don't think Draco is a poor little rich boy with bad friend  
> making skills. Draco is a bad, egocentric little villian in the   
> making. 

Betsy Hp:
Thank goodness Dumbledore disagrees!  He certainly saw *something* 
worth saving in Draco.  And I do think their final conversation in 
HBP will have ramifications in book 7.

> >>Phoenixgod:
> He might not be much of a killer but that seems to be failure of  
> cowardice and sqeamishness than anything else.

Betsy Hp:
Yes, because only the super brave have the guts to kill an unarmed 
and wounded old man while surrounded by their meanest, nastiest 
buddies [/sarcasm].  Sorry, but the whole, measuring 
Draco's "bravery" by his unwillingness to kill Dumbledore is... odd 
to me.

Squeamishness, I'll buy.  Draco (like Harry) is not too enamored of 
the reality of killing another human being.  I take that as a good 
thing, actually.  And I believe JKR shares the viewpoint.  Looking 
at the known killers in her books (Voldemort, Pettigrew, Barty 
Crouch Jr., Grayback) killing doesn't seem like the way to win 
universal admiration.  Even the most ardent Snape-fan recognizes 
that the fact that Snape has killed cannot be treated lightly.

> >>Phoenixgod:
> He certainly shares Death Eater ideology.

Betsy Hp:
Of course he does.  That's how he was raised.  I have a strong 
suspicion that ideology is being questioned at the moment, and it'll 
be interesting to see what Draco believes in book 7.

> >>Phoenixgod:
> You have such rose colored glasses when it comes to Draco I don't 
> even know where to begin!
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hey, I'm only working with what JKR gave me. I see the Draco she 
wants me to see.  If it seems rosy colored to you, take it up with 
her. <g> 

> >>Phoenixgod:
> He had already nearly killed two people and we never the slightest 
> bit of genuine remorse, IIRC. 

Betsy Hp:
I cover all that in my post on Draco's choice:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136980

"Honestly, I think that when Dumbledore gives Draco a benediction of
sorts, ("you are not a killer") the very fact that Draco then feels
the need to confess ("but I've done things that don't bear that
out!") speaks to Draco's remorse. If he hadn't cared about what
he'd done to Katie or Ron I don't think he'd have thought to bring
them up. Especially since, as Dumbledore points out, they were
examples of some rather pathetic attempts on Draco's part."

Of course, you may disagree. <beg>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > > <SNIP>
> > > But I don't think Harry *ever* considered that Draco might
> > > actually be a victim of Voldemort's.

> >>Alla:
> > I am with Phoenixgod - Draco started this adventure as being
> > Voldemort's accomplice, NOT a victim, IMO. He planned           
> > assacination attempt because he wanted glory and even accused   
> > Snape of trying to steal his glory.

> >>Hickengruendler:
> I never thought I would defend the little ferret, but one doesn't
> necessarily exclude the other. I agree with Narcissa in thinking,
> that Voldemort chose it as a revenge for Lucius, and Snape seems to
> agree as well.
> <snip> 

Betsy Hp:
Absolutely.  Draco's death was the entire point of Voldemort's plan. 
Lucius had failed Voldemort twice, and Lucius had to pay. Which, to 
my mind, made Draco Voldemort's victim.

> >>Hickengruendler:
> I don't think Voldemort threatened Draco from the very beginning. 
> He probably knew how to seduce him to the Dark Side, in promising 
> him glory and telling him that he has the chance to take revenge  
> on Harry for sending Lucius to prison.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree.  Voldemort presents the plan in the best possible light to 
Draco, and then puts him in the hands of his most fanatic follower, 
Bellatrix. (All of Draco's talk of "glory" and his distrust of Snape 
sound like something he's quoting straight from her.) Though I'd say 
that it was presented as taking revenge on *Dumbledore*.  Draco was 
very uninterested in Harry throughout HBP.

And I think the use of the word "seduce" is a good one.  Voldemort 
pulled a young sixteen year old school boy into his parlor with all 
sorts of promises and when the school boy got nervous he forced him 
to stay.  Draco was seduced into saying yes, but saying no was never 
an option. (Which Draco learned sometime over the Christmas break, I 
think.)
 
> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Well, there's Draco, and... erm...  There's Draco.  Has Harry 
> > conversed with any other Slytherin?
> > <snip>

> >>Phoenixgod: 
> Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent, Flint, the nameless cheating     
> bastard members of the Quiddich team, the house members who       
> refused to stand for Cedric, and all the ones wearing Potter       
> Stinks badges back during GoF.

Betsy Hp:
Which leads me make to my original question: has Harry ever 
conversed with any other Slytherin (with the same caveat you 
snipped - Quidditch barbs don't count)?

Two small points of order: No one refused to stand for Cedric.  Some 
*did* refuse to stand for Harry.  Those wearing Potter Stinks badges 
included every house except for Gryffindor.  I believe Hufflepuff 
was quite enthusastic (not thrilled with Harry trying to steal their 
boy's spot-light, IIRC).  

> >>Phoenixgod:
> Harry hasn't exactly been treated well by any Slytherin, not 
> just Draco.  Why exactly should he think well of any of them?

> >>Alla:
> Exactly, Phoenixgod, thank you.

Betsy Hp:
Because he hasn't been treated badly by any Slytherin except Draco?  
And to reverse the question, no Slytherin has ever been treated well 
by Harry, why should they work to seek him out and be nice to him?

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I think this quote counters your theory:
> > "You'll be Gryffindor like her, I suppose? Yes, it usually goes
> > in families." (HBP scholastic p.70)
> > Tom *was* Slytherin's last surviving heir, after all.

> >>Alla:
> I am sorry I don't understand. I was saying that I interpret my
> quote as the idea that Slytherin House values equal Tom's values,
> that he did not HAVE to twist anything, Slytherin House was already
> twisted enough to accept eleven year old bully with psychopathic
> tendencies.
> Could you clarify how the quote you brought up contradicts my
> argument, please?

Betsy Hp:
*Hogwarts* was "twisted enough to accept an eleven year old bully 
with psychopathic tendencies".  The fact that Tom was a blood 
relative of Slytherin meant that Slytherin was the lucky house that 
got to take him in.  If Tom had been a blood relative of Ravenclaw I 
imagine he'd have been swept off to that house.  If none of the 
houses had wanted him, I guess he'd have ended up in Hufflepuff, 
since they "take all the rest".

> >>Phoenixgod:
> I was disappointed that there wasn't more laying the ground work  
> for house unity in this book.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Sure there was!  That was what the Slug club was all about.  It was 
a bit more elitist than the DA, but it did include *all* of the 
houses, so that was good.  And it forced Harry to interact with 
students he'd never spoken with before, including some of his 
Slytherin classmates.

Betsy Hp, who tried to think up a more accurate subject line but 
failed miserably