The Importance of the Houses

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 138166


> Betsy Hp:
> Thank goodness Dumbledore disagrees!  He certainly saw *something* 
> worth saving in Draco.  And I do think their final conversation in 
> HBP will have ramifications in book 7.

You're probably right. I doubt she would set up Draco like that and 
not pay it off somehow. I just hope Draco plays a relatively minor 
role in the important doings of book seven. He's pathetic as a 
villian and unsympathetic as a hero.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, because only the super brave have the guts to kill an unarmed 
> and wounded old man while surrounded by their meanest, nastiest 
> buddies [/sarcasm].  Sorry, but the whole, measuring 
> Draco's "bravery" by his unwillingness to kill Dumbledore is... 
odd 
> to me.

I'm not measuring his bravery, I'm measuring his sincerity. I was 
simply pointing out that I don't think he didn't pull the trigger 
out of a moral imperative to not do another person harm. He was just 
too scared to do it. I don't see anything noble in that.
 
> Squeamishness, I'll buy.  Draco (like Harry) is not too enamored 
of 
> the reality of killing another human being.  I take that as a good 
> thing, actually.  And I believe JKR shares the viewpoint.  Looking 
> at the known killers in her books (Voldemort, Pettigrew, Barty 
> Crouch Jr., Grayback) killing doesn't seem like the way to win 
> universal admiration.  Even the most ardent Snape-fan recognizes 
> that the fact that Snape has killed cannot be treated lightly.

He didn't have any problem with killing when he was safely away from 
the backlash. If his enemies died from a hand other than his own, I 
doubt he would shed a tear. If Harry were in genuine, immediate harm 
I don't think he would help. He doesn't want to get his hands dirty, 
but if bad things happen to his enemies he doesn't really seem to 
care.

Thats what seperates him from Harry. 
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Hey, I'm only working with what JKR gave me. I see the Draco she 
> wants me to see.  If it seems rosy colored to you, take it up with 
> her. <g> 

I think you see the Draco you want to see, the same as I do and 
never the twain shall meet :)
 
> Betsy Hp:
> I cover all that in my post on Draco's choice:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136980
> 
> "Honestly, I think that when Dumbledore gives Draco a benediction 
of
> sorts, ("you are not a killer") the very fact that Draco then feels
> the need to confess ("but I've done things that don't bear that
> out!") speaks to Draco's remorse. If he hadn't cared about what
> he'd done to Katie or Ron I don't think he'd have thought to bring
> them up. Especially since, as Dumbledore points out, they were
> examples of some rather pathetic attempts on Draco's part."
> 
> Of course, you may disagree. <beg>

They were only pathetic by the standards of the great and powerful 
Dumbledore. They both did nearly work on other people. I bet neither 
Ron nor Katie consider them pathetic and Dumbledore should think 
twice before forgiving Draco on the behalf of others.

I think that scene demonstrates Dumbledore's greatest weakness and 
his most annoying trait. He is on such a different plane of magical 
power and knowledge/experience that he doesn't really get simple 
human emotions. What would Ron or Katie think about Dumbledore using 
valuable resources to hide a boy who should be in Azakban for what 
he did to those two students? It is rude and disrespectful of what 
the two of them went through. Same with Harry and Snape. Dumbledore 
has never acknowledged that Harry's hateful feelings towards Snape 
are absolutely legitimate and understandable. When Harry learns 
Snapes actions with the prophecy, dumbledore completely shuts Harry 
down when Harry has every right to be pissed. It's like Dumbledore 
can't even understand why Harry would be angry.
 
> > >>Phoenixgod: 
> > Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent, Flint, the nameless 
cheating     
> > bastard members of the Quiddich team, the house members 
who       
> > refused to stand for Cedric, and all the ones wearing 
Potter       
> > Stinks badges back during GoF.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Which leads me make to my original question: has Harry ever 
> conversed with any other Slytherin (with the same caveat you 
> snipped - Quidditch barbs don't count)?

When I mentioned the quiddich team, I wasn't counting trash talk. 
You should hear the things I say to my friends on the fencing strip. 
I was refering to their dangerous level of cheating in some of the 
games. I also forgot, weren't there other Slytherins with Draco when 
he played that Dementor trick on Harry?
 
> Two small points of order: No one refused to stand for Cedric.  
Some 
> *did* refuse to stand for Harry.

Yu are very right about that. I haven't read GoF in years and I got 
both scenes jumbled up in my head. still, I think the fact that they 
don't stand for Harry doesn't say anything good about them.

  Those wearing Potter Stinks badges 
> included every house except for Gryffindor.  I believe Hufflepuff 
> was quite enthusastic (not thrilled with Harry trying to steal 
their 
> boy's spot-light, IIRC).  

True, but IIRC they still stood for Harry in the end. The only ones 
who were bad sports were the slytherins.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Because he hasn't been treated badly by any Slytherin except 
Draco? 

But that just isn't true. Draco has had plenty of allies against 
Harry potter.  When slytherins leave him alone, he leaves them 
alone. Blaize Zabini, Theo Nott, and Daphne Greegrass aren't on 
Harry's enemy list, because they haven't done anything to him.
 
> And to reverse the question, no Slytherin has ever been treated 
well 
> by Harry, why should they work to seek him out and be nice to him?

like I say above Harry has never demonstrated a problem with any 
slytherin other than the ones that seem to have a problem with him. 
As for why they should be nice to him? My answer is why shouldn't 
they? Isn't politeness and not trying to kill/humiliate a person 
sort of the default moral position?
 
> > >>Phoenixgod:
> > I was disappointed that there wasn't more laying the ground 
work  
> > for house unity in this book.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Sure there was!  That was what the Slug club was all about.  It 
was 
> a bit more elitist than the DA, but it did include *all* of the 
> houses, so that was good.  And it forced Harry to interact with 
> students he'd never spoken with before, including some of his 
> Slytherin classmates.

I think the slug club was a little thin to be the sort of ground 
laying I am thinking about. it was too isolated from the rest of the 
school to help bring them all together. It is a little help but not 
much, imo.

phoenixgod2000