Slughorn and Dumbledore: possible motive

[hermionegallo]

No: HPFGUIDX 138259

hg, replying to Ceridwen, Jen Reese, Auria:

Ceridwen:
I still cling to *my* baby, that Dumbledore was already dead, and is
only temporarily alive due to Harry's double 'rennervate' and his
plea. Second favorite possibility, that he was dying already,
noticeable evidence in the Tower chapter, and the time had passed
where intervention would be possible. But, I like your Slughorn
theory, too. Maybe our two babies could play together for a while,
at least until book 7 comes out?

hg:
I love both!  I, too, had toyed with the idea that Dumbledore was 
already dead, but I hadn't thought of Harry's rennervate.  I thought 
that maybe the curse from the ring would kill him within 24 hours or 
something, and so he was trying to maximize his time by taking 
Draught of Living Death (hence the times "away" from the school).  So 
then Snape would be waking him for his meetings with Harry etc.

I do like the Slughorn theory, but I'm not married to it yet 
(still "just friends").  I've considered the possibility that 
Slughorn faked Dumbledore's death from the tower scene on through the 
funeral, and that cave Dumbledore was himself.  It would still work.

Ceridwen:
On the left-handed thing, Dumbledore has been working in spite of an
injured right hand all year. He could have been using his left, and
getting used to it as well. Using his non-dominant hand might indeed
decrease his magical reactions, or even his magic if the dominance of
the hand plays a part. Like trying to write with the wrong hand. 

hg:
I considered that, too.  I was particularly drawn, however, to the 
scenes depicting Dumbledore with the bottles, and he repeatedly has 
trouble with them -- and instead of opening them with his left hand, 
he uses his wand instead.  In the cave, he holds his wand in his left 
repeatedly, cuts his arm with his left hand (it could be argued that 
he couldn't hold the knife with his right, but he does draw the knife 
with his left hand, suggesting it was in a convenient left-handed 
position), and he feels the cave walls and the potion with his right, 
which up until this point, has seemed for all intents and purposes 
dead.

The scene in Slughorn's borrowed house demonstrates, for me anyway, 
that he's left handed, since we know Dumbledore is right handed: 
imagine them standing back to back, making "one identical sweeping 
motion;" the motion would not be identical unless they favored 
opposite hands.  Furthermore, JK makes such a big deal of showing us 
where both of Slughorn's hands are in other scenes and what they are 
doing.  So although I won't rule out compensation, I can't embrace it 
either.

Ceridwen:
I don't know if the bird can be
changed into someone else, but if anyone could do it, Dumbledore
could. He taught Transfiguration, and is shown during the series,
transfiguring different items... If the potion in the cave wasn't a 
deadly poison, then the sinking down the wall might be Fawkes coming 
to the end of his adult cycle anyway. Can't vouch for becoming pale, 
though.  And, we've already been informed in the books that a 
powerful wizard can project his mind into another being. Voldemort 
has done this twice: once when he inhabited Nagini to attack Arthur, 
and once at the MoM when he inhabited Harry during his duel with 
Dumbledore. Harry had to say the words Voldemort put in his mouth, 
IIRC.


hg:
We can vouch for Slughorn becoming pale, as he does whenever he's 
nervous.  Even so, I also thought that it sometimes seemed as though 
cave Dumbledore was having a private conversation with someone 
unseen. ???

Ceridwen:
Slughorn being Dumbledore, or at least taking part
in a deception as he's one of DD's old and dear friends, appeals, and
gives yet another reason for his particular part in HBP. 

hg:
I love the idea of "two old men who seem to be past their prime show 
everyone how to do the thing properly."  I really got the impression 
that bringing in Slughorn was Dumbledore's way of hauling out the big 
guns, no more fooling around.

Jen Reese:
1) This is subjective I know, but the impact of Dumbledore's death
on Harry and much of the WW, as well as the sequence of the phoenix
song, funeral, etc., were among the most poignant scenes JKR has
written in the entire series. To go back on that....Well, heck, JKR
likens herself a bit to Dumbledore--is she also willing for Harry
(and us) to suffer a little emotional pain if she can set right the
entire story in Book 7? Evil & ruthless indeed. ;)

hg:
I know, I know.  I thought of the "cheapening" aspect of the faked 
death.  But I get the impression that Dumbledore wouldn't do it to 
sweep out from behind the curtain in the final scene of the final act 
and steal the show, but rather he'd do it in order to buy more time.  
Dumbledore has made it plain that Harry has to do this, destroying 
Voldemort in the end has to be done by Harry; still, I don't see the 
end of Dumbledore's usefulness in the story, nor do I believe he'd 
reveal himself to more than a select few, and then only when he was 
about to genuinely die.  So I think that covers the "wise old guy 
with the beard has to die" bit, as well as "the hero has to go it 
alone," right?

As for the "really sweet things" Dumbledore said, my mind goes 
STRAIGHT to the "I am with you" line, which utterly broke my heart.  
However, sadly, I can see Slughorn saying it and meaning it, in a 
much different way.  (Harry is the Chosen One after all.)  That line 
was the one that made me hate that I was even considering that cave 
Dumbledore could be Slughorn, more than any of the lines throughout 
the cave/tower scene.

Jen:
The context you mention above, that we know one of Dumbeldore's
beliefs played out in words and actions is that the good of the
community is more important than any one individual. Or at least the
*emotional* well-being of any one individual. A deception would
cause Harry much emotional distress, but we've seen Dumbledore is
willing to sacrifice emotional well-being if he feels there's a
greater good at work (i.e, Durselys and the blood protection, Sirius
at GP).

hg:
Exactly.  We should see Dumbledore's "caring more for you than the 
nameless faceless thousands" as an exception to his own rule.  
Dumbledore expects a lot of people in the name of the greater good 
and most often gets what he expects.

Auria:
Glad to be aboard the 'DD-faked-death' boat!
You make some more good points, although I am more inclined to think
that Snape IS in on the plan. The main reason is that Hagrid
overheard DD and Snape having an argument over something that Snape
didn't want to continue doing anymore (I dont have the quote to
hand). This could mean that Snape doesn't want to go through with
the plan and continue faking his allegiance to LV. Snape also had the
opportunity to allow the other DEs to if not kill then perhaps
torture Harry after the tower scene but he convinced them to leave
him alone. If he was a true DE surely he would have the evil tendency
to at least injure Harry, but he didn't.

hg:
I have to agree about Snape: as wicked as he appears AKing 
Dumbledore, he appears equally good when calling off the DE's.  Would 
he HAVE to be in on it, though?  Could Dumbledore have given him 
explicit commands in the forest, similar to his explicit commands to 
Harry (if I say run, you will run etc.)?  Something to the effect 
of "do whatever it takes to protect Draco's life and your cover, you 
must see this through, it is of the utmost importance..."  It would 
be a tidier parallel to the orders Harry has to obey.  And the stakes 
are tremendously higher for Snape -- if he has a memory of a secret 
plan to fake Dumbledore's death, you can bet Voldemort will dig it 
out of his brain.  I'd think, therefore, that Dumbledore wouldn't 
have Snape in on it for the simple need to protect Snape (and 
Draco).  This would allow for your conversation to go (almost nearly) 
as you imagined it, and would hold the integrity of Snape as you're 
seeing him, am I right?

Auria:
I also had the thought that in all the previous books DD has always
acted carefully and cautiously when it comes to Harry. So surely
taking Harry to the cave, which could be very dangerous as DD stated
himself, was taking a huge unnecessary risk? Why did he need Harry
with him anyway, as Harry didn't do anything that was unique to his
talents? Surely DD could have taken Slughorn or Snape instead? So
having Harry there must have another motive. DD probably already knew
the horcrux was a fake and it was part of his plan to convince the
world and Harry of his final demise.

hg:
I don't think Dumbledore's been cautious with Harry throughout the 
series; I've gotten the distinct impression that he's given Harry 
many opportunities to face challenges (the stone, the chamber, time 
turner/Sirius...) although when it came to allowing Voldemort to 
stroll through Harry's mind he put his foot down.  That being said, 
he didn't utilize Harry's talents much in the cave/tower scene except 
for Accio, which wasn't very useful; but he did need someone with 
Harry's personal strength to accompany him, and maybe the motive lies 
in that -- maybe Dumbledore knew more about what challenges lay ahead 
than he let on.  Of course, I like the idea that he needed Harry to 
bear witness to a faked murder idea best of all.  :)

Auria:
Good point about the five minutes for Harry to get his cloak - I
thought of that too. I hadn't thought about DD perhaps using a
bezoar however, so thats an excellent theory. I liked all your other
pointers too, and will look out for them while I am rereading the
book. In particular the absence of Fawkes when DD is in trouble on
the tower is particularly strange and would link to the faked death
theory perfectly.

hg:
Yeah, I like the Five Minutes a lot, but it doesn't give me 
irrefutable evidence of a switch, and I wish I could say it did.  For 
instance, what if Harry had said, "I've already got it, let's go"?  
Maybe Dumbledore was GIVING the five minutes to Harry?  I'm perplexed 
about Fawkes.  I don't know where it fits in with anything; I could 
speculate that Dumbledore was out there somewhere being healed?  

I like all my tidbits, too, except "I am with you," as I said above, 
and even aside from the Dumbledore issue I think there's a LOT more 
to Slughorn than meets the eye.  Particularly interesting to me is, 
first, how Tom knows that Slughorn knows about Horcruxes (don't have 
the book, can't give the quote, but Slughorn definitely knows about 
them and Tom definitely knows this), and second, Slughorn's eyes -- 
JK repeatedly draws our attention to them and, by the way, Jen, 
they're green.

Thanks to all for giving me a fun post night.
hg.