All the subjects required for an Auror

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 138358

Valky said: Snape does not *know* Harry is *the* "One" full stop. He
only knows "Harry is the one with the power" because he has only heard
half the prophecy. He could still conclude that the power is the
answer, and not the boy. Snape is into "power" like that, being a
Slytherin and all.


Rachel:
Yes, the power bit is interesting. Then does Snape think both LV and
DD are mistaken fools to accord Harry with such power? 

Valky now:
No I don't think so exactly, I think that perhaps from the beginning
Snape was interested in the boys in the sense that one of them
possessed a power as yet not mastered by him. I can picture a snpe
that is somewht covetous of anything useful or magestic within magical
power, but not in order to *be powerful  and dominating* as in
Voldemorts reasons, I would be inclined to believe that JKR intends
Snape to be revealed as *distinct* from Voldie, and pending that, I
will go with this distincton for now, that Snape's motive is more pure
more of a curiosity and desire to meet the challenge of something
extraordinary. Something more like his interest in the Dark Arts. In
his DADA class he appears to have some sort of admiration for the Dark
Arts, per the Loving Caress in his voice, and the gruseome pictures
adorning his walls. The regard Snape has for the Dark Arts is regard
essentially for the immaculate finesse with which the Dark Arts
despatches with its purpose. The genius of the magic itself, is
something of a wonder to him, I am supposing. He may not share the
purpose wholeheartedly, but he certainly appreciates the means. So in
my saying that Snape is intersted in the Power that will Vanquish the
Dark Lord I am saying moreso that he sees the Power as means worth his
time an effort to procure. Regardless of what he might ever use them
for, he is fascinated by the genius that one would presume was behind it. 

Of course Snape also has a mind to earn himself the same admiration
and wonder from others around him that he has for the craft itself.
His ability to do so, is unfortunately marred by his lack of empathy
and understanding for *people*. He is not a people person, like
Dumbledore, so he fails terribly at making the impression that he
would prefer to make. I can see a Snape that tries to amaze with his
marvellous mind, and becomes frustrated because it is beyond the
understanding of many to see precisely how incredibly brilliant his
moves are. He disguises all too well what, in a sense, he would prefer
to be revealing. That he is brilliant. When Harry notes to him in the
Occlumency lessons that he is capable of spying on Voldemort for
Dumbledore, Snape is apparently quite pleased to have the recognition.
This I am supposing is a rare moment in Snapes life, when someone
openly regards his brilliance and in this moment, though it is a soft
allusion, I think that JKR manages to demnstrate a mild modesty in
Snape. Yet another one of his ways of sabotaging his chances to have
the recognition he desires, but making him all the more a more
brilliant person, because he would be quite less able than someone
with more bravado (Like James or Sirius) to *relax* upon the instinct
to believe he had mastered it all and could learn no more.
Snape is confidnt in the truth that he has learned a gret deal more
than the average man, but while he has that confidence he remains
within a measure self doubt because there are greater and more
powerful people than he, like Dumbledore and Voldemort.

Okay I am going on and on in answering the one important question
Rachel asked, but I felt it essential to construct the whole of the
impetus in order to make this point with enough clarity. I don't
believe that Snape thinks that LV and DD ae fools to accord Harry with
such power. I believe he phased in and out of wondering if there is
nothing to Harry before he saw it for himself in Harry's fifth year, 
and I also believe that Snape would cover logical angles in
establishing for himself what was to be. Hence If there is a power
that can defeat Voldemort in one fell blow, then a place to look for
it might be Harry, or Neville according to the Prophecy, If this power
exists, the part pf the prophecy that Snape knows gives absolutely no
assurance that either boy will ever be able to weild it against
Voldemort, if they do, then all very well, but he has absolutely no
basis for assuming that it is that way. He knows only of the
prophesied existence of a magestic power. There is no reason for him
to believe that he himself could not also learn it, or weild it
against Lord Voldemort. It is a small step from there to imagine that
the Snape we saw in POA would give finding and using this power
himself to defeat Voldemort, a try.
He knows he is powerful and brilliant, he knows Voldemort very well
and has studied/observed him for a long time, therefore if all that
the one of these boys has is a latent power he will never use or will
not be able to use for a hundred years, which is within the logical
realm of possibility, then it would not be wasted nor will he have to
wait for the boy to grow powerful enough, if *he too* learns what it
is and manages to weild it.

 

Rachel;
If so, this definitely supports the supposition that Snape is his own
man and is using both LV and DE to determine how to defeat LV, simply
for the sake of glory. Following this line of argument then, Snape has
taken what he can from Harry and DD and as an opportunist is moving
over to the DE camp to learn what he can from them.


Valky now:
I believe I may have established already that I have taken Snape in an
entirely different direction in my train of thought. It is plausible
that Snape could use what I think he has worked upon in an OFH!ESE
fashion, but I am not sure that this is what the Snape of previous
books would *surely* lend to. It's likely he could go either way, so I
figured that I might explore this avenue. For many reasons, one being
that the death of DD can not appeal to me as something skewed negative
in the scheme of things, and I find it virtually impossible to believe
that snape walked out into that tower and *truly* believed that DD was
helpless. In the beginning of HBP we are treated to the story that no
Death Eaters would dare approach Dumbledore alone or in packs.
Dumbeldore absolutely disarmed himself, in my mind, which entirely
suggests he had chosen to be (or merely appear) vulnerable upon the
tower. I have fallen for the masquerade, gotten up and thought again
and now I am stuck on it, Dumbledore was happy enough with what
occurred that night, so I have put it down to DD's motives and DD's
orders and look for Snapes personal motives elsewhere, and outside of
the square of the Unbreakable Vow which I'm beginning to view as a
clever web spun to trap more than Snape, and Dumbledore but *us* also.
 



Valky said:
I do agree that Snape really DOES think Harry is mediocre, but I am
also absolutely certain that in Harry's latest year Snape was
definitely poking his hooked nose into Harry's thoughts for a reason.
And it wasn't to reassure himself that Harry was mediocre.
In short I would assume from your argument Rachel, that you could too
imagine that Snape *wants* to be the Hero of the story. To my mind,
this is the only thing that canon on Snapes attitude to Harry's Auror
ambition does *not* contradict from some angle.


Rachel:
Yes, certainly, we are agreeing here Valky. I hadn't thought prior to
this that Snape was searching Harry's mind for clues on how to defeat
LV himself, but I can see now that is probable. Perhaps Snape expects
Harry to die, then future plans are irrelevant. Or perhaps Snape could
care less about Harry's plans for the future.

Valky:
I think I agree with both your suggestions Snape, I think, considers
Harry separately to himself. Another entity with perhaps less chance
than he of ever being the hero. If anything in Snapes regard to Harry,
I think that the footrace at the end of HBP is the strongest analogy,
Snape sees himself running ahead of Harry toward Voldemort, and the
final face off.  He goads Harry on his incompetence,  which can be
read as saying that Snape is working within the framework of
sportsmanship, they are competing in a foot race and when close to
each other Harry and himself are in direct competition, I have started
to wonder if Snape was just outright sledging Harry, you won't win
this race because you're stupid, you're ignorant, go home and study
now, if one day you are up to my level then perhaps the game will
still be on.. 

 
Rachel:
Harry would not have been in Potions in HBP if Snape had been teaching
it-maybe Snape is simplistic in his attitude toward Harry's career
choice and does not want Harry to have anything that Harry wants
because he hates Harry. If Snape is a glory hound (and I do think he
is) then he would not want Harry to be an auror, which could be
another venue for Harry's popularity in the ww. 

Valky:
I do agree with what you say here, it is likely. But I don't think we
are looking at a Severus Snape that expects the WW to be "business as
usual" tomorrow. The singular matter of the Potter Universe is
Voldemort, for Snape to see beyond that, after all that has happened,
might be asking too much.

Rachel:
I am most anxious to see how Snape is revealed in the next book.


Valky:
You and me both! :D


Valky replies:
> During the Occlumency lessons Snape makes his long
> discourse about weakness and easy prey for the Dark Lord.
> Then he says Harry's is not important enough anyway, so he
> ought to get over himself, *then* he calls Harry sloppy
> and lazy, *and* I noted before, he gets even more
> angry at Harry for not repeating his Occlumency
> defense (which coincided with his memory of defending Sirius)
> and finally in HBP Snape is still making noises about Harry's
> incompetence and his [Ha!] intention to become an Auror, all
> while secretly (and obviously to me), *studying him* internally
> defending Sirius' memory, *then* Snapes final words to Harry
> as he runs out of the castle wind back to the same old ground,
> You can't beat me without stealth, No Unforgivables


houyhnhnm:
I would have to go with #1. No, I don't think Snape is scatterbrained
exactly, but he is extremely compartmentalized. His hubris in
thinking he is in control of the process, when it has begun to take
control of him, is what brings about his downfall, IMO.

<snip>

Valky:
I just wanted to say I loved your analysis, houyhnhnm. I agree
absolutely with the contrast that you've demonstrated of Harry's
consistency vs Snapes compartmentalised changingness. 
Harry has developed, kind of, within a single stream flowing in one
direction and growing gradually wider as it goes along, he has a
constancy, that Snape who has hopped from one chaneel to another and
then back so many times I have totally lost track, simply doesn't. The
way you describe Snapes compartmentalising process as calculating but
eventually destructive, works still for me within the boundaries of
the Snape that I am hypothesising but even if it didn't, I would have
to say I agree with what you've said, anyway, because the shrewd to a
fault Snape that you've described is very canon-like IMO.


/Fabian:

I've started to think of Snape using the same kind of pedagogical
skills as drill sergeants do in american war movies. Honestly, if
Harry is going to have any use of his Occlumency, does he have to do
it when someone provoces him and insults him or when someone is nice
to him and encourages him? I'm not saying I think it's the best way of
teaching it, but I would imagine that could be a reason.


Valky:
I am not the first to say this, but I think its pertinent. What you
describe above appears to be a relatively common way among wizards to
*jolt* latent magic out of their young. Neville was thrown out a
window by his Uncle, which is within accepted standards for
Wizardkind. That this is accepted is reasonably understandable,
because the Wizardfolk appear to be many thousands of times less
fragile physically than muggles. That is, when their natural wandless
magic appears to protect them. One could forgive a Wizard like
Nevilles Uncle, who hadn't really ever known the pain of enduring
muggle like wounds after being dropped from a height, for not
realising if Neville *was* a squib he'd probably break his tail bone.
He only knows first hand that the rough treatment works, he doesn't
first hand know how much it hurts when it doesn't work, I'd suppose.
Unless he'd played Quidditch before.


Fabian:
I totally agree with the studying of HP part, I think the occlumency
lessons are important both to protect Harry but also to let Snape know
how easy it is to get into his head and if there are more visions the
order doesn't know of.

Valky:
Actually, yeah I thougt of this option, but it didn't seem to make
sense. Snape could know that Voldemort was blocking Harry (who it
seems has Voldies power of Legilimency within him). But vne if he
doesn't, he quit teaching Harry Occlumency. He's washed his hnds of
this issue if thats all there is to it, I think.

In any case I am fairly sure he knows that Voldie is blocking Harry,
since DD knows its a logical deduction that it was Snape who told him.


Fabian:
BTW, am I the only one who sees Gargamel (from the Smurfs) when I read
about Snape?

Valky:
Actually, No <bg> you're not. I have often had an image of Gargamel
pop into my mind when thinking of Snape. It's kind of funny.. but its
just his image that fits for me. When I am thinking in terms of
character, I think Gargamel reminds me of Filch, always trying to 
catch the little ones and boil them in his pot.. ;D