Unbreakable Vow Truly Unbreakable

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 138895

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at y...> wrote:
> It occurred to me that the Unbreakable Vow might function separate
> from the will of the person making the vow, i.e., that taking the 
> Vow sets a certain course of action in motion.  ...edited... The 
> Vow itself would eliminate further choice on Snape's part, even if 
> he did not know what he was vowing to do. The Vow would assume 
> agency, acting as a sort of Imperius Curse, supplanting the will of 
> the person who made it.
> 
> Possible?
> 
> lealess


bboyminn:

I'm not quite sure I follow. Are you saying that rather than a penalty
of death for not acting, the Unbreakable Vow /compells/ a person to
act in a way that fulfulls the Vow? Or, rather are you saying that the
creation of a Vow sets into motion an irrevocable destiny, in a sense,
implying that Dumbledore was dead the minute the Vow was made
regardless of the method or cause of his death?

The Options-

1.) Dumbledore, far in advance, told Snape to kill him. (which I don't
believe)

2.) Dumbledore and Snape had a conversation in which Dumbledore said,
if I am about to die anyway, use the occassion to your own strategic
advantage. (which I do believe)

3.) Snape is  DE and just flat out killed Dumbledore. (too easy in my
book)

4.) Snape was forced by the Vow to take action which he strongly
resisted in both body and spirit. In other words, the Vow forced Snape
to kill Dumbledore. (not sure, but I have my doubts)

5.) You can read my post in -

Subject: Re: Dumbledore's flawed plan - Snape's Vow
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136291

...in which I indicate that Snape never intended to make the third
Vow. Initially, he agree he would help and watch over Draco. You will
note Snape sudden urge to pull away then Narcissa starts the third
Vow. Unfortunatly, by then, Snape is commited, and has no choice but
to follow through. 

However, I believe all three Vows are Riddled with loopholes. The
first two are essentially meaningless because Snape only agrees to
'watch' and 'try'. In the third Vow, Snape agree to carry out the
'deed' if Draco should fail. The third Vow seems pretty air-tight, but
it assumes that Snape knows what the 'deed' is when he makes the Vow. 

Personally, I think Snape was bluffing when he said he knew what
Voldemort's plan was. I'm not even sure Voldemort's plan was complete
at that point. It's possible that Voldemort assigned Draco to fix the
Vanishing Cabinet so the DE's could get into the castle. Only later,
as a great honor (nudge nudge wink wink), did Voldemort add killing
Dumbledore to the deed. Though, I admit I can't prove that. 

The key point is whether Snape is bound to a Vow based on an unknown
'deed'. Can he truly Vow to a deed not knowing what the deed is, or to
a deed that might be changing? Further, can later knowledge override
his knowledge at the time the orginal Vow was made? In other words, is
Snape bound to his knowledge at the time, or is he bound to any
knowledge he may gather or suspect in the future? That's a lot of
unanswered question, and I think sadly we simply don't know enough
about Unbreakable Vows to answer them.

When the third Vow is made, it's unlikely that Snape truly knows what
he is Vowing to. Further, the 'deed' is never specified. Can Snape
mold the Deed in his mind to suit his own needs? Can he, in his mind,
make the deed the fixing of the Vanishing Cabinet, and not include
killing Dumbledore? Without further knowledge of the nature of the
Vow, I can only say that it seems possible. 

Also, note that no time frame is given. I suspect that making a Vow is
like making a legal contract. If every little detail is not spelled
out, the contract is either not binding or can be avoided. Can Snape
really be bound to an unknown deed with no specific time frame? That
seems a pretty weak contract. With no time frame specified, as long as
Snape maintains an /intent/ to kill Dumbledore at some vague and
unspecified point in the future, it would seem that he is immune to
the punishment of the Vow.

So, I don't think the Unbreakable Vow compells a person to act beyond
that person's fear of death as the alternative. I don't believe
Dumbledore conspired with Snape in advance for Snape to kill him. I do
believe that Snape saw that it was too late for Dumbledore, he was
dying, and as unheroic as it was, Snape maximized the situation to his
best advantage. He sacrificed a dying Dumbledore for the greater good
of eventually helping to destroy Voldemort. 

Snape was faced with two choices in that moment; to end his spying
career and effectively be out of the fight, or to put himself into the
superior position of becoming Voldemort right-hand man and obtaining
near god-like status amoung the DE's. I think Snape made the long term
choice, the choice that will utlimately bring the greatest good to
all, even though that greater good was built on a tragic death. That's
what it means to be a ruthless double-double agent. 

Part of the reason I think Snape really acted for the greater good is
the constant reminders throughout this book that Dumbledore trusted
Snape. To some extent that emphasis was to maximize the effect of
Snape killing Dumbledore, but we must certainly see that the
consequences go far beyond this book. Take Snape's emphasis near the
end, that his actions were not 'cowardly' as Harry implied. It must
have take great courage to kill Dumbledore knowing that others may not
believe his explanation after the fact. Snape may have sent himself to
prison for life in order to protect the 'cause'. That's a very herioc
thing to do.

So while Snape is a mean rotten nasty person and had to do a terrible
thing with terrible short and long term consequences, that doesn't
mean he still can't be good. Good doesn't necessarily equal nice.

I think there are enough hints in the books to tell us that Snape's
story is not over yet; there are many more revelations to be revealed. 

Also, note that given the nature of the task Harry could spend a
lifetime trying to resolve the Horcrux situation. Somehow there has to
be a shortcut to solving them. I suspect that shortcut will come from
Snape.

Just passing it along.

Steve/bboyminn