ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?)

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 138896

 > Betsy Hp:
> Congratulations on a wicked cool name.  And in celebration, do you 
> mind if I take a couple of practice shots at the good ship ACID 
> POPS? <g>

Neri:
Thanks. Shoot away.

> Betsy Hp:
> Nowhere do I see any evidence that Snape enjoyed Narcissa falling 
> all over him.  If he did have a hidden, secret passion for her, 
> shouldn't he have clutched her to his manly chest?  Stared 
> wretchedly at her falling tears?

Neri:
You mean like in "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's
tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand" (HBP
scholastic Ch. 2, p.36)?

But what you conveniently forget is that the passion must be
disguised, both inside the story from the present Bella, and in the
meta-thinking level from the readers. After all, we wouldn't have this
interesting discussion here had Severus crushed Cissy to his chest and
pressed a Won-Won/Lav-Lav style kiss on her lips. That would be have
been much too obvious. So Narcissa the temptress is disguised as
Narcissa the desperate, which she really is, and Snape's passion is
disguised as mere kindness and helpfulness. This is a SHIP, after all,
and you need to read between the lines a bit. But ACID POPS still has
many more lines to read between than LOLLIPOPS. For that matter, ACID
POPS has more lines to read between than either H/G, R/H, H/C, R/T,
B/F or *any* SHIP in the HP series had during the book in which the
happy couple was first shown together.

> > >>Neri: 
> > Do you remember Snape *ever* treating
> > *anybody* else gently and kindly, in the whole series?
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> We've never seen him outside of Harry's presence before.  Though he 
> *does* show a great deal of care, IMO, when he heals Draco from the 
> Sectumsempra.  He struck me as downright maternal in that scene.
>

Neri:
Snape had a *very* good personal motive to treat Draco carefully
there. Had Draco died, or even merely came to some harm from the
Sectumsempra, then Snape would be dead. In the bathroom scene Snape
came within an inch of his death, and the only thing between them was
Draco's well being. 

Except for the above well-explained case, Snape never shows even a
hint of decent kindness towards Dumbledore, McGonagall, Filch or
anybody *but* Narcissa. I don't see why Harry's presence should
prevent him from that.
 
> > >>Neri:
> > <snip>
> > He could have easily ushered Narcissa out with some vague promises 
> > that he'll do what he can. But no, he makes her an Unbreakable    
> > Vow. The BIG sacrifice. Why?
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> That's the big question, isn't it?  But I have a hard time buying 
> the idea that Snape made the decision in a fit of passion.  His face 
> went "blank" when Narcissa made the request.  To my mind that speaks 
> to cool calculation (he was clear enough to hide his thoughts) 
> rather than heated emotion.
> 

Neri:
The blank face implies forced control, but not necessarily the lack of
passion. Snape is definitely doing some very fast calculation there,
but does he also calculate if undertaking this mortal obligation would
finally make Narcissa love him? Snape is generally a very controlled
and calculated person, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his
goals are also calculated and rational. Only his tactics. I suspect
Snape was well aware that Narcissa was playing on his emotions there,
but he also knew that her need and desperation were very real. Snape
got the same blank look that a man might get when he wonders if this
is the right timing to propose to a very skittish woman he desires.     

> > >>Neri:
> > <snip>
> > Snape knew the full implications of the terrible choice he was    
> > making. Even Bella was speechless. So was I.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> <snip> As a double agent Snape was 
> interested in keeping himself as free to move about as possible.  
> This Vow *restrained* him.  It was too huge a decision for Snape to 
> make solely on the attractiveness of the person asking him.  

Neri:
It *was* a huge decision. It was a Choice moment. And Choices like
this are not made based on mere calculation, but on deep motives. Like
a secret love a person had for more than twenty years and it finally
has a chance to come true.  

> 
> > >>Neri:
> > You won't find in his words even a hint for some good word, some  
> > whiff of tender emotion for Lucius. He won't say it explicitly in 
> > front of Narcissa, but it's obvious from his comments to Bella     
> > that he despises the man.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Really?  I didn't get that read at all.  <snip>

Neri:
Snape despising Lucius indeed depends on you reading (it's obvious
enough to me, at least) but what is certain is that Snape never even
hints that he owes something to Lucius. He makes an Unbreakable Vow
and he never even suggests that he's doing it for his friend Lucius.

> > >>Neri:
> > 7. What do we know about Snape's character? The man seems to be
> > obsessed with power, status and respect. It's always "I'm the     
> > Potions master in this school", "I will not be talked to like     
> > that!" "You will address me as sir", "Yes Potter, this is *my*    
> > job".
> > <snip> 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Considering how disrespectful Harry is of Snape (more so than to any 
> other adult around him - rightly or wrongly) it's not surprising 
> Snape is forced to say such things.

Neri:
But he doesn't say these things to Harry alone. He says it to
Hermione, he says it to Lockhart. He says it to the Marauder's Map
("Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to
yield the information you conceal!"). BTW, in the British public
schools "master" meant simply "teacher", but somehow it is only Snape,
of all the teachers, who insists time and again on calling himself
"master".     

> And 
> especially after learning that he still lives in his muggle father's 
> home I don't see how that argument can be sustained.
> 

Neri:
First, was it established that this is his father's house? In any
case, the existence of this house is surely a well-kept secret, or
Wormtail wouldn't be using it for a hiding place. Even Bella didn't
know about this house (but, interestingly, Narcissa did).

> > >>Neri:
> > <snip>
> > Instead of using his muggle father's name, young Severus chose the 
> > maiden name of his pureblood mother for his self-invented nickname.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> First of all, who knew that Snape's nickname was the half-blood 
> Prince?  Lupin seemed totally unaware.  

Neri:
But a secret, self-chosen nickname is likely to be much more personal
and revealing than something everybody knows and uses.

> Second of all, if Mrs. Black 
> called someone a half-blood *anything* do you really think she'd 
> have meant it as a complement?  

Neri:
That's why it's secret. As I previously wrote, I think our Severus is
very ambivalent and has a serious love/hate relationship with the
pureblood aristocracy. After all, Narcissa must have rejected his
love, and Sirius and James were also purebloods. The HBP nickname
neatly symbolizes this ambivalence.

> And third of all, why do you think the nickname was self-invented?

Neri:
Even if it wasn't, it was of enough importance for him to sign in the
book that held his professional secrets. And he proclaims this
nickname proudly during his final flight. "I, the Half-Blood Prince!"
Isn't that a bit pathetic for a grown man? 
  
> > >>Neri:
> > And this name just happened to be "Prince".
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Exactly. Pure chance. He could have been the "half-blood Ferguson".
>

Neri:
Yeah, sure. And Remus Lupin and Sirius Black, these names are also
pure chance. And I won't even start about Newt Scamander and his many
friends.
 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> First of all, there is no wizard nobility.  That gets established 
> early on in the HBP.  

Neri:
Er... can you quote the canon for that? The rich purebloods certainly
think of themselves as nobility. In 12GP there's a family tree
entitled "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" and a book named
"Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Geneology".

> <snip>
> A slightly better wardrobe?  Shampoo?  Seriously, if anyone seems
*less* concerned 
> with rank it's Severus Snape.
> 

Neri:
Heh, are we talking about that guy who sweeps around importantly in
black robes (which none of the other teachers apparently wears) and
constantly sneers down his nose?

> Betsy Hp:
> This is the weakest part of ACID POPS, IMO.  Because I see little 
> plot reason for Snape to be madly in love with Narcissa.

Neri:
Excuse me! The entire HPfGU list is in upheaval searching for Snape's
reason to do such a stupid thing as undertaking the Unbreakable Vow,
and I have yet to see an explanation that comes even *close* to Snape
being madly in love with Narcissa. 

> It seems 
> to add more confusion to the plot than any sort of clarity, to my 
> mind.  And with only one book remaining I think JKR is going for 
> clarity.
>

Neri:
I think it depends mainly on what *sort* of clarity you hope JKR is
going for. If Snape is to be a hero and a triple agent who is totally
on the side of Good, then perhaps LOLLIPOPS makes more sense (although
still falling much short of explaining everything that needs to be
explained). But if Snape is a complex character wavering between Good
and Evil then ACID POPS goes a lot to explain his ambivalence towards
the DEs camp as well as him undertaking the Unbreakable Vow. 
 
> LOLLIPOPS, on the other hand, provides a possible motive for Snape 
> leaving Voldemort and joining with Dumbledore. 

Neri:
First, you treat "Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with Dumbledore"
as a given, while right now it is in considerable doubt. Second, even
assuming for a moment that it *is* a given, ACID POPS can explain it
as well as LOLLIPOPS. Snape "joining with Dumbledore" must have
occurred not long after Narcissa married Lucius. Severus' last hopes
were shattered, and he secretly joined Dumbledore in desperate hope
that Voldy will lose, Lucius will get killed, and Snape would become
the hero of the winning side while Cissy would be free again.    

> And it's bangy, 
> especially from Harry's POV. 

Neri:
And ACID POPS isn't bangy? Just think of what Draco will do when he
finds out. And Lucius and Snape meeting at dawn, wands at twenty
paces? And whom would Narcissa prefer? And what would Snape do if it
turns out Voldy still wants the Malfoys dead? And remember, the S/N
SHIP doesn't depend anymore on Harry's POV. One additional chapter
that isn't from Harry's POV would be enough for all the BANG and
clarity we will ever need. 

> So, if there's to be any sort of ship 
> for our Severus, I think the good ship LOLLIPOPS is the one to beat.

Neri:
<beg> ACID POPS is equal or beats LOLLIPOPS in either canon, theme,
plot considerations, BANGiness, and you-name-it. The only thing ACID
POPS can't supply is that wistful image of NobleHero!Snape,
sacrificing himself in the ungrateful role of a triple agent all for
the love of a woman who is fifteen years dead.  


Neri pops another ACID POP Extra Strength into his mouth and gropes
blindly for the ice water.