Harry's story, NOT Snape's (was Re: "An old man's mistakes")

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 138980

_lady.indigo_ (mailto:lady.indigo at g)  wrote:

> 
>  Which is why I do think Snape is innocent (along with the other
> reasons  I listed), but even if he isn't there has to be more to his
> story than  what we know.  And it's that revelation which will be
> important,  and which will turn the tide in the end.  Maybe Snape's
> true  redemptive moment has yet to come?
> 

Lupinlore wrote: 

And therein, I'm afraid, lies precisely the problem many people,  
including myself, see with the Good!Snape scenario.  It in effect  
means the books cease being Harry's story and start being Snape's  
story.  I don't think that's what JKR intends (and I think that  
accounts for most of her concern about Snape being so popular).
 
Julie says:
I think JKR's concern is more related to Snape's "romantic"
popularity among female fans, similar to Draco's among young
girls. There is an unfortunate "savior" complex in some women--
okay, maybe in many women--but some carry it too far. Think
of the women who write letters to convicts, sometimes send 
them money, visit them, etc, each believing she is the one 
who can see the good man--the "real" man--inside the convict
(indeed, sometimes inside the serial killer, as men like Ted 
Bundy had dozens of female admirers). 
 
It's that whole attraction to bad boys, and JKR said she went
through such a situation herself. I don't think she's worried about
fans who find Snape a fascinating character, or even think some
good in him may lurk amongst the meanness, or who hope  for 
his redemption. I think she's expressed concern for those who 
dismiss his many unpleasant traits, and think he is merely 
misunderstood (in which case he doesn't even need redemption).
 


Lupinlore wrote:
JKR has implied pretty strongly that she's following  the standard 
patterns of coming of age/hero's journey literature.   Whether that is 
a good idea or not is another question, but I think we can  take her 
at her word.  That means the story is about a Hero's growing  up, and 
in the end facing his challenge alone with HIS OWN DECISIONS being  
the crucial component of the outcome.  Yes, it's true that the actual  
resolution of the story might lie in the hands of a surprise 
character  (Gollum, Vader),  but it must be the independent choices of 
the hero  that bring everything to the climax.  It was Frodo's 
choices, including  his choice to spare Gollum, that brought 
everything to a head at the Crack  of Doom.  It was Luke's choice to 
appeal and reach out to his father  that redeemed Vader.

The problem with Good!Snape, particularly the  Dumbledore'sMan!Snape 
variety of that theory, is that it effect reduces  Harry to a puppet.  
The really important choices, in these scenarios,  are those that have 
been made by Dumbledore and Snape.  Dumbledore,  through his awesome 
and far-seeing plan, and Snape, through his wrenching  sacrifices, 
have engineered Voldemort's doom by cementing a traitor at  
Voldemort's right hand, and Harry is simply the first domino that 
will  set the process in motion at the final confrontation.
 
Julie says:
I don't see it that way. I don't believe Dumbledore had a set plan
in place as much as he has been making a plan as he goes  along,
revising it here and there as circumstances arise. And that plan 
could only get Harry to the point where he is now--destined to 
face Voldemort soon (because Voldemort made that choice), 
and as prepared as Dumbledore's planning could make him.
 
And Harry is hardly the first domino that sets in the process in 
motion to the final confrontation (that was Snape, who originally
told Voldemort of the prophecy--which is the act for which he
desperately needs so much redemption). Harry is the one who
will direct the final confrontation and decide its conclusion--
which makes him much more than a mere domino in the process. 

Lupinlore:
Consider, in order for Dumbledore'sMan!Snape to be true,  Harry will 
have never REALLY been alone.  He would have always been  supported, 
even at the final moment, by Superspy!Snape.  In order for  this to be 
true, Harry's choices have never really been the crucial steps  
leading to the defeat of Voldemort, they are mearly variables in  
Dumbledore's grand plan.  Furthermore, it means that the entire scene  
atop the tower was a play for Harry's benefit, reducing him to a  
credulous dupe led astray by his own prejudices.
 
Julie says:
I disagree again. You might as well say he'll never REALLY be
alone because he has Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, Lupin, another 
half dozen or so Weasleys, Mad-Eye Moody, Hagrid, etc, etc, 
etc, and etc, on his side. I don't see that Snape will be any
different, since I don't think Dumbledore'sMan!Snape means he
must also be Superspy!Snape. Snape is one of those cogs, 
who will do something to assist Harry, as the others I mention
and more will also perform small tasks to assist Harry. But in
the end it will be Harry ALONE against Voldemort, which I
think is JKR's real meaning. 
 
I also think we won't know until Book 7, when Harry finally 
comes into his own as hero, what choices he will make
that will prove crucial to his defeat of Voldemort. And wouldn't
it be ironic if one of those choices is to change his mind 
about Snape at a crucial moment? Ironic, and maybe as  crucial
to Harry's growing maturity as to his defeat of Voldemort,  and
perhaps also very good storytelling. It's as much about  *how*
JKR tells it as *what* she tells, that will make or break a
good story, IMO.
 
Oh, and I don't see any indication the Tower scene was played
for Harry's benefit, good or bad Snape. Harry was there, and 
Dumbledore had to make a decision--another case of reacting
as circumstances arise rather than adhering to a set plan 
(the latter of which seems an impossibility in the constantly
in flux WW anyway.)


Lupinlore writes:
I have to confess that I agree with Eggplant in  finding this outcome 
contrived, poorly written, and just plain silly.   It would also be 
very, very boring -- Harry was wrong about Snape yet again,  how 
terribly original of JKR.  
 

Julie says:
Yet if it turns out to be ESE! or OFH!Snape, then Dumbledore 
made a major mistake YET again---ho hum, very, very boring, 
and how terribly unoriginal of JKR...
 
Looks like she's going to lose either way if it's only a question
of semantics. After all she's set the precedent for both to be
quite often wrong--Harry about Snape due to his prejudices,
and Dumbledore because he expects too much of people. 
Luckily I think JKR will write it well enough to avoid either of 
those results being contrived or silly. 
 
Lupinlore says:
Now, just because it's Harry's story doesn't mean  other characters 
can't change and make effective choices.  In fact, one  of my 
arguments with JKR to this point is that she has been so VERY wedded  
to the standard formula that she has missed a lot of interesting  
possibilities in this regard.  But those choices can't be allowed to  
undercut the Hero's status, and Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would do 
exactly  that.  If JKR goes in that direction of undercutting the 
Hero's Journey  formula, I would have been much more impressed had she 
kept Sirius alive to  give Harry love and support -- that at least 
would have been a refreshing  and pleasant change of pace.  
Dumbledore'sMan!Snape would just be  forced and preachy. 
 
Julie says:
Again I don't think it has to be that way.  Dumbledore'sMan!Snape
can still be  Deeplyflawedyetdesperatelyseekingredemption!Snape
as much as he can be Superhero!Snape. It's all in the writing. 
 
Eggplant also wrote:

Thank you lupinlore, I was beginning to think that I was the only  on
planet Earth who thought that because Snape butchered Dumbledore  there
is at least the slight theoretical possibility that perhaps  Snape
might not be an absolutely perfect human being.  

Julie says:
Eggplant, if you could resist the temptation to melodramatically 
misrepresent the arguments of other posters, then it might allow 
said posters (such as myself) to enjoy a debate with you rather
than sighing sadly when you once again go off on those who 
don't agree with you. 
 
Julie 
(who is the Queen of England, the Queen of Sheba, and 
Freddie Mercury if Snape is anything *remotely* related to
an Absolutely Perfect Human Being.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]