[HPforGrownups] Re: Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's)

[lady.indigo at gmail.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 139123

> On 8/30/05, M.Clifford <Aisbelmon at h...> wrote:
> >
>>Lady Indigo said:
>> But the point is that it was true, and Harry's acknowledgement of this 
would have allowed for a more beneficial relationship with
>> someone who, while certainly not the nicest person, was for all Harry 
knew a very useful and important resource prior to Book
>>6. Certainly someone trusted in Dumbledore's eyes, at least, however that 
did or didn't turn out.
>
> Valky:
> It just wouldn't be Harry to do that. Harry is not a Slytherin type, he 
isn't looking for beneficial relationships, he looks for meaningful
> camaraderie and friendship. He is a true Gryffindor. It would be Snape and 
only Snape that would percieve ny value in a coldly beneficial
> relationship between them. Harry wouldn't know the first thing to do with 
one.

Lady Indigo: 
Use Snape's lessons to fight Voldemort, maybe? I'm not talking about 
ambition here, I'm not talking about arranging backscratching between 
enemies. Snape had knowledge that even Dumbledore found it useful for Harry 
to learn. Harry barely even TRIED to make that work, for all taking out the 
wizarding equivalent of Hitler was important to him, Dumbledore, apparently 
Snape, and everyone else. There's no guile in deciding that for a little 
while you have to tolerate someone who's been cruel to you in order to 
better serve EVERYONE'S good. Whether or not an apology or some degree of 
humbleness would have worked, and again, I don't guarantee it would, it 
would have at least served as an attempt.

> Alla:
> I submit that Penseive scene was only ONE scene in seven years 
relationship which we don't know much about yet. And we know
>that Snape belonged to that gang according to Sirius. I never considered 
Sirius' to be a liar, but after HBP when his words
>about Snape's involvement with DA pretty much confirmed, I am taking his 
factual comments about Snape pretty much at face
>value.

> > Lady Indigo:
> > Don't you think we would have, at least as a
> > 'you did it too!' retort of some kind?

> Valky:
> We get one of those.
> * Snape never missed a chance to Hex James, you don't think your
> * father would take that lying down do you?

Lady Indigo:
Again saying I haven't read all of Order in a while (and I'm beginning to 
tackle that right now so I don't continue to sound like an idiot), I'll
concede to that. I've also reread that scene and I still see a load of 
excuses that don't ring soundly to me. I find it difficult to fully believe
this when the reason given for attacking Snape as late as his fifth year is 
"It's more like he exists, really." Of course there must have been 
retaliation at some point, but isn't there a certain importance to the 
Marauders' relationship with Snape 90% of the time being represented as
something much worse than a mutual crossing of swords?

>On 8/30/05, vmonte <vmonte at y...> wrote:
>Now that we know that Snape is a great legimens/occlumens I'm struck by the 
many times (even in book 1) Harry has felt that Snape was
>invading his mind and extracting information. Harry always feels it and it 
makes him feel violated.
>
>"Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to 
keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times he wondered
> whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. Potions 
lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape
>was so horrible (I'm reminded of JKR's comment that Snape is a "deeply 
horrible" person) to Harry. Could Snape possibly know they'd found > >out 
about the Sorceror's Stone? Harry didn't see how he could--yet he sometimes 
had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds" (p221, >SS).
> "Harry wondered whether he could slip his Invisibility Cloak back on, 
thereby gaining his seat at the long Gryffindor table (which, 
>inconveniently, was the farthest from the entrance hall) without being 
noticed. As though he had read Harry's mind, however, Snape
>said, "No cloak. You can walk in so that everyone sees you, which is what 
you wanted, I'm sure" (p162, Snape Victorious, HBP).
> I can't help but feel that this is like "mind rape." It makes me also feel 
very bad for Ginny who had to endure this kind of "emotional
>rape" for a whole year.
>
>I agree that James was wrong, but Snape is no better.

Lady Indigo:
I have to say that I'm not entirely sure about this. We get a very 
distinctive feel of what a full-scale invasion of one's mind is like, when 
Snape pulls the image of the HBP's book forward at the end of that book. 
There may be some kind of lesser Occlumancy Snape can do without as
much notice, but we don't yet know if this is possible. I also saw no 
evidence there or anywhere else save the Occlumancy lessons themselves that 
Harry felt emotionally violated by any of it, save what Snape normally stirs 
up in him.
Either way, yes, Snape becomes and perhaps always was no better, although as 
far as mind-reading Harry hardly ever KNOWS this has happened and therefore 
can't really be subject to the potential of the same damage. But this again 
is more about Harry taking the high road. So much of what I'm hearing 
against this comes down to "but Snape is also a bastard and he did this 
thing and he would do this stuff later." And my answer is, so? 
We know that he is, we know that he's completely incapable of being rational 
about Harry, Harry's parents, and anything that even remotely resembles 
adult maturity. This isn't about Snape's actions, it's about *Harry* finding 
that maturity and rationality. It's something he's failed to do so far and 
something he'd do well to learn from Dumbledore, who would probably feel 
sorrow for what his enemies became even as he cut them down. (Certainly he's 
aware of what Snape is and yet gives him some measure of respect, whatever 
you want to read about his murder/voluntary demise/whatever.)
As, yes, deeply horrible as Snape has been, Harry is no saint and yet Harry 
is our hero. So it's his actions I'm more concerned with, whether
or not he's 16. This is a coming of age tale, and so I will, yes, point out 
where he completely fails to act like an adult.

> On 8/30/05, tbernhard2000 <lunalovegood at s...> wrote:
> His relationship to Snape was probably like Harry's with Draco - 
intermittent, and nasty. 

Lady Indigo:
But with James in the role of Draco, the arrogant aggressor? We also have 
all those references to Snape being attacked alone by four people,
as opposed to the Trio vs. Draco and CrabbenGoyle.

tbernhard2000:
> He hasn't acknowledged his responsibility in the demise of Harry's 
parents, to Harry. Snape knew about the prophecy orb, cause he knew
>about the prophecy and the DOM, obviously. I know someone on this list will 
disagree, somehow...

Lady Indigo:
Not a disagreement so much as a question: how would his overhearing the 
prophecy mean that 15 years later he could be aware the orb
existed? I'm sure I'm missing details here. I really, really need to reread 
OotP.

tbernhard2000:
>And Harry is supposed to offer to this hideous man with a DE history and a 
personal culpability in Harry's orphan status some kind of
>gesture of understanding, a man who has conveniently forgot to tell Harry 
anything at all about his role in the death of Harry parents?
>What gesture is being asked for here? What gesture would be appropriate?

Lady Indigo:
An apology for what Harry has done wrong in the situation. He intruded in 
Snape's privacy and he immediately assumed Snape was lying about
James. (He's also a cheat, no matter who the HBP's book belonged to, but I 
won't even go into that.) Those are his only crimes, and the only ones I 
wished he would apologize for based on what he (and we) knew at the time. I 
also think it'd be no blow to his pride to say 'My father should not have 
attacked you, and he did wrong by you, but I'm not my father,' but I'll let 
that go as I can definitely understand the debate there and how I might 
think differently from others. 
Harry apologizing for his own actions, though, is common courtesy and it's 
not for major sins. He needs to take responsibility for a small amount of 
teenage pride, bias, and thoughtlessness. I don't see why that's so 
astonishing to everyone, or why you insist Snape's own evil deeds, almost 
none of which Harry knew about at the time, somehow put Harry above doing 
the decent thing. My original point, ultimately, was that Harry hadn't owned 
up to his (very small!) end of things and that it probably inflated Snape's 
perception of Harry's arrogance and refusal to take responsibility. It's 
very likely apology wouldn't have changed a thing, but it's the attempt that 
matters. Harry's never tried to actually defeat Snape's bias by proving 
himself humble and willing to acknowledge where he did wrong. He's certainly 
not helped by getting angry even when Snape was right, snarking right back 
at him (which probably reminded Snape VERY much of James!), and privately 
wishing him dead. Is it a human reaction? Yes. Is it the best reaction? 
Definitely not.

tbernhard2000:
>Snape found refuge at Hogwarts too.

Lady Indigo:
When? He found refuge in his magic making him feel better than powerless, 
sure, but he was bullied, isolated, and not nearly given the
attention and love Harry was. Some of that is definitely his own prison, 
yes. Some of it, I don't doubt, was exchanging one form of pain for another. 
I certainly have a feeling his friends weren't 'true' friends, for one 
thing.

tbernhard2000:
>As for your last statement, I think it's important to note that the memory 
was Snape's worst. Not the ratting that led to the death of
>Harry's parents, not joining the DE, etc. What do you think this means? 

Lady Indigo:
I do think this has to do with Lily, whether or not he loved her (though I 
think he did), and also that she's the person Snape regrets causing the 
death of. And I think we've had a lot of clues in this vein, too, both from 
the books and Rowling's interviews.

I'm really sorry for the hugeness of this response, by the way; I've just 
realized that I only get three a day and I was trying to respond to
as much as I could.

- Lady Indigo


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