ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?)

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 139175

> Betsy Hp:
> As I said before, Narcissa was not acting like a woman manipulating 
> a smitten man in this scene, IMO.  She was too sloppy in her 
> despair.  I think she was as desperate as her actions suggested (she 
> loves her son) though I also think she probably has a touch of drama 
> in her (shared by Draco) that influenced her a bit. (IOW, a 
> naturally more retiring woman would have shown her desperation in a 
> different way.)

Neri:
So you are basically saying that there are no romantic overtones in
this chapter, only some innocent drama, and all the rest is in my
dirty mind <g>. You're implying that JKR can write lines like "Her
face close to his, her tears falling onto his chest, she gasped" or
"seized his hand in both of hers, and pressed her lips to it" or "His
black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she
continued to clutch his hand" without being aware of what
interpretation such lines suggest. If this is indeed the case, then I
think our Jo is in need of an urgent writing course from virtually any
fan-fiction writer out there. In the books *I'm* reading (which
usually aren't of the over-romantic type), if you have a sentence of
the form "His <insert color> eyes were fixed upon her <insert color>
eyes" then the Romance Quotient will show at least 6 out of 10. If the
inserted eye color of the man is black and the inserted eye color of
the woman is blue then the RQ jumps to 7. If her blue eyes are also
tear-filled and she clutches his hand in the bargain it goes up to 8,
especially if she also has long blond hair that was described no less
than three times during the chapter. If the chapter then ends with the
image of him making a great sacrifice for her on his knees, then
there's no need to even check the RQ anymore, and the question is only
if they end up in bed together or do they get rid of her husband
first. Now tell me with straight face that my RQ needs adjusting.   

> > >>Neri:
> > Nor does he manages to maintain absolute control during the Vows - 
> > before he makes that crucial last Vow his hand twitches inside    
> > Narcissa'a hand, and he hesitates before answering.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Well, yes.  This is the moment where everything goes pear-shaped so 
> I'd expect Snape to react.<snip>  

Neri:
Nobody has yet managed to explain to me why everything must go
pear-shaped at this moment. Bella's face here are described as no less
than "astounded" (ratcheting up from the previous "astonished" and
"eyes wide"). This clearly indicates that Snape's last Vow was a huge
commitment, much more than would be expected from him or from anyone.
I see no reason why Snape can't stop at this moment and say to
Narcissa: "I'm sorry. I've already given you two vows, but you ask too
much. I promise I'll do what I can to complete the task if Draco
fails, but you can't demand that I'll stake my life on it. There might
be factors here that are out of my control". I think this would be
perfectly logical, and already up and above what Bellatrix expected of
him. Snape's hand twitching shows that he's fully aware how critical
this Vow is. Such a sacrifice and such a commitment for Narcissa make
no sense. Unless Snape objective is to win Narcissa'a love, in which
case the bigger the sacrifice and the bigger the commitment – the
bigger are Snape's chances.   

> Betsy Hp:
> Yeah, but an apartment in the right neigborhood could be swung by a 
> single guy.  I've met social climbers and Snape ain't it.  Not with 
> his little house in that working class neighborhood.

Neri:
I'm not familiar with any canon about a "right neighborhood" where
single Wizarding pureblood aristocracy live. If such a neighborhood
exists, I'm not familiar with any canon that Snape doesn't have an
apartment there, in addition to the muggle house used for hiding
supposedly-dead servants of the Dark Lord. Snape admittedly has never
managed to turn himself into a popular person, but the fact he still
has difficulties with it doesn't mean he isn't obsessive about respect
and status. And he *is* climbing fast in the social circle that soon
might be the most important one – the Dark Lord's first circle of DEs.  

BTW, regarding this issue of Snape's obsession with status, do you
remember what were the first words Snape ever said in the HP series?
They were "Ah, yes. Harry Potter. Our new -- *celebrity*" (italics in
the original). I can't think of anybody at Hogwarts who is more
obsessed with Harry's publicity than Snape. Not even Slughorn. Not
even Romilda Vane. 

> 
> Betsy Hp:
> That's where that "remorse" comment came in.  Dumbledore believed 
> that Snape was truely remorseful and that's why he trusts him today.

Neri:
That still hardly explains why Dumbledore believes this "remorse" is
so strong that it makes Snape risk everything for the Order today,
fifteen years after the fact. In this sense a Life Debt would be a
much more plausible explanation than LOLLIPOPS, because a Life Debt
presumably doesn't lose its power over the years. It is binding today
as it was fifteen years ago. 

(BTW, regarding Snape's acting ability, "remorse" is precisely the
word he uses in order to describe to Bella how he had deceived
Dumbledore. "I spun him a tale of deepest remorse" he says without any
sign of emotion. So does this mean he can't be feeling deeply  about
this remorse? And if he can, might he also be able to hide passion
behind blank face?)

And I also think that all this
Dumbledore-can't-tell-Harry-about-Snape-and-Lily-because-Harry-will-never-understand
was overplayed by the LOLLIPOPS crew. In HBP Harry agrees to accept
Kreacher, who betrayed Sirius to death (and is even more unpleasant
than Snape), into his service. He even employs him as a spy when the
need arises, and by his own volition too. I really think Harry would
have been able to accept, if not like, that Snape loved his mother. I
think it wouldn't be such a big deal to tell Harry in the beginning of
the year, especially with the danger to Dumbledore's life. And if not,
then at the very minimum Dumbledore could have told several people in
the Order, so in any case the connection with double-agent Snape
wouldn't be lost. Unless part of Snape's deal with Dumbledore was that
the secret would never be revealed, of course, but that would work for
any theory. We don't need LOLLIPOPS for that. 


> Betsy Hp:
> Snape does seem to have a great dislike of Sirius.

Neri: 
Oh, sure he does. Snape points a wand between Sirius' eyes and
whispers "Give me a reason. Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I
will". He says it twice so there won't be any doubt. Now what could he
mean by "give me a reason"? The man betrayed the woman Snape love to
her death, didn't he? What "reason" is Snape looking for? This is
Snape during his greatest rage explosion in the series and he can't
control his emotions, right?

We know why Snape hates Sirius. When he suspects Dumbledore believes
in Sirius' innocence, he breathes to him: "You haven't forgotten that
he once tried to kill *me*" (again, italics in the original). With
Snape it's always *me*, never *her*.

> Betsy Hp:
>And the fact 
> that Lily (great at potions Lily) is *never* spoken of by Snape is 
> telling too, IMO.  The thing about Lily and Snape is it's more about 
> what's missing than what's there.  (Who is the "horrible boy" for 
> example.)  Which is why it's really hard to pull up canon. (heh.  
> I'm not convincing you at all, am I.)

Neri:
Not really. Had Snape mentioned Lily you would have used it as to
support LOLLIPOPS, wouldn't you? But since he doesn't you use the
absence to support LOLLIPOPS. Let's accept the sad fact: LOLLIPOPS
might seem like very attractive plotting to us, but it has about zero
canon to support it, and a lot against it.

> Betsy Hp:
> Maybe the vengence of treating Wormtail like utter crap and using 
> him to defeat the man Wormtail serves is sufficient.  Wormtail is 
> certainly miserable, thanks to Snape, and Snape certainly seems to 
> relish his misery.

Neri:
Oh yeah. Treat him like crap and make him miserable. Doesn't that
about sum up Snape's treatment of his students? You'd think he'd save
something a bit more potent for the man responsible to the death of
his beloved Lily.

> Betsy Hp:
> So Sirius is chopped liver?  James is a waste of space?  Lily is 
> yesterday's compost?  The series is *filled* with heroes, many of 
> them noble, and none of them stealing the spotlight from Harry.  It 
> is actually possible for Snape to be on the Order's side without 
> Harry slipping off the stage.

Neri:
Sirius, James and Lily (and now also Dumbledore) were all safely
disposed of before the climax. JKR practically said in the
three-pronged interview that she got rid of them in order to leave
Harry alone.

I personally think it's possible for Snape to help Harry in Book 7
even if he indeed killed Dumbledore in HBP. Both ACID POPS and Life
Debt enable realistic scenarios for that. But it seems to me that the
shattering combination of LOLLIPOPS and NobleHero!Snape right there at
the climax would be too much. And if it was a secret plan that
justified Dumbledore's death it would have to feature in the climax or
it wouldn't be worth it. In this sense too, ACID POPS could be much
more useful than LOLLIPOPS. It will enable Snape to be a villain who
is also complex, tragic, and he can even save Harry's life right there
at the climax without making Harry any less a Hero.

Neri