Snape: Crime and Punishment/ Will JKR punish Snape and Umbridge or not?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 143847


Steve:

<SNIP>

 Good and bad are not crystal clear. Right and
> wrong is not an easy choice. JKR is a master of shades of grey, and
> those realistic shades of grey are what make her world so endearing 
to
> so many readers. 


Alla:

I think I have to disagree here, sort of. I do NOT believe that 
morality in JKR's books is so grey as you seem to argue, Steve. The 
people are flawed, yes, but do you ever doubt where the major 
characters stand in Good v Evil fight?. ( Snape's loyalty being  the 
one to uncover yet of course)


> bboyminn:
<SNIP>
As I said, mean nasty teachers exist in the real world; and
> mean nasty irrational people exist in the real world, these are just
> harsh realities that we have to learn to deal with. JKR said as 
much.
> 
> So, I use this as my basis for saying that Snape will never be
> formally punished on-page for the way he treated Harry and Neville.
> Plus, I think Snape's classroom action are too mild to waste page 
time
> on. Yes, he's mean, but the world is mean, and you need to get used 
to it.
> 
> That said, I never said Snape wouldn't be punished for killing
> Dumbledore, and I implied that he would be karmically punished. More
> on that later.

Alla:

OK, here is where I struggle. Let's put aside the "whether Snape 
abuses Harry and Neville" question for a second, because I don't 
think we will ever agree on that, but you DO agree that Snape is not 
treating them fair, right?

So, my argument is and that is similar to what Nora argues in the 
other thread is that JKR LIKES punishing characters for the bad 
actions they are committed and NEVER lets them punishment free. 

Dursleys indeed are very good example. JKR did not forget about them, 
she made a nice humiliation show (IMO)for them to endure  and that 
actually was quite enough for me to feel satisfied that they got what 
they deserved. 

I guess my question is why are you so sure that Snape will go 
punishment free for his treatment of Harry and Neville? Is that 
because you think that his actions are not severe enough to deserve 
punishment?

But then even if you don't think that what he does is an "abuse" with 
capital A, my argument is that less severe actions were punished, IMO.


Voldemort had not been punished yet, true, but do we have any doubt 
that he will be?

I was very surprised to read that people think that Umbridge will go 
punishment free and happy that Nora brought up that quote yesterday.

Jo says that it is fun to torture her(Umbridge) more. I have no doubt 
that Umbridge will get her dues, personally in book 7.

Why are you so sure that Snape will not?




> bboyminn:
<SNIP>
As I said,
> Snape has doomed himself for all time. He will suffer to his dying 
day
> for his act. When he walks down the street, if he even dare venture
> out in daylight, wizards and witches will turn their faces away, or
> look at him with unmistakable distain. Like I said he will be 
shunned
> and alone, and being made an outcast in the society he so greatly
> sacrificed for will be his Karmic punishment.

Alla:

Well, I will be happy with this punishment for Dumbledore's murder, 
especially since I am thinking that Snape wants to be a hero big time 
and most likely people will never think of him as  savior of the day 
now, but will think of him as Dumbledore's killer.

Yeah, that woud do quite nicely.

But again I am not sure why are you so sure that Snape's treatment of 
his students will not go punished, especially when we have such a 
nice example that Dursleys did not.

Really, one scene would go nicely. Ooo, maybe Snape's boggart will 
turn into Lily who will lecture him for how he treated her son and 
Harry will witness it or something like that.


Steve:
> Just because the many characters in the books like Snape and 
Umbridge
> don't face formal accusations and associated punishment doesn't mean
> the cruel hand of fate won't punish them in some karmic way.

Alla:

I offered someone a bet on different topic yesterday, but I am 
happily offering the same bet to you. Ten butter beers that Umbridge 
WILL be punished for her actions in book 7. :)

And although I will not offer the same degree of certainty about 
Snape, based on how I read JKR intentions, I am offering five butter 
beers that Snape will be punished somehow too or will be apologising. 
It will not be long punishment or apology but it will be effective:-)


JMO,

Alla, preparing to buy those five butter beers for Steve. :-)