Snape: Crime and Punishment -Nature of Punishment

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 143879

> bboyminn:
> 
> I think the argument has somewhat fallen into the area of 
Semantics.
> Just exactly what constitutes 'punishment'. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Could be.


Steve:
> So, I have to wonder if we are really talking about punishment? 
I've
> already said Snape will be /punished/ for killing Dumbledore, and
> while people may not agree on the method, they seem to agree that 
my
> suggestion is sufficient /karmic/ punishment. So, again, are we 
really
> talking about punishment, or are we talking about a character's 
action
> not going unnoticed and, more importantly, unacknowledged? 

Alla:

Yes, let me clarify first about punishment for "killing Dumbledore". 
I completely agree with you that Snape being ostracized by the 
society and hated by many would be nice karmic punishment, but ONLY 
if Snape indeed killed Dumbledore because he felt that he was doing 
a necessary thing and honestly felt that he had no other choice, not 
only that but if he is still loyal to the light.

As you probably know by now I am very wary of sharing your 
confidence that Snape did both heroic and cowardly thing. My most 
charitable reading is that Snape was being a coward who thought 
first and foremost of saving his life and less charitable that he 
was being a murderer, but if you are right, yeah that punishment 
will be enough. It fits well with McGonagall comment that it was 
unheard in the History of Hogwarts that Headmaster is killed by one 
of the teachers ( paraphrase)

It would be nice if in the Hogwarts A History Snape will occupy a 
place as someone who killed great Albus Dumbledore, even if Snape 
will indeed somehow help Harry.

If Snape killed Dumbledore because he betrayed his trust, the only 
punishment I see sufficient for Snape is death.

As to  Snape being punished for his treatment of Harry and Neville, 
I do agree with what Lupinlore said . I would be very happy to see 
the acknowledgement of Snape's actions as wrong, but definitely by 
somebody else other than Harry. So, I guess I am in partial 
agreement with you Steve, I don't really need to see Snape punished 
as  someone would be punished in RL for what he did to Harry and 
Neville, acknowledgement would be fine, BUT just acknowledgement to 
me would not be very satisfying ( and that is of course JMO) - I 
want to see Snape experience discomfort or what Dursleys 
experienced - humiliation.

In any event, ANYTHING would be fine as long as someone else besides 
Harry confronts Snape AND Snape does not have an upper hand in such 
conversation. I don't know, if it would be Remus, I could imagine 
Remus silencing Snape and not allowing him to move till Remus done 
talking or something like that. If this conversation will grow into 
Snape throwing insults back, to me it would not be emotionally 
satisfying. Just going into speculative lands here of course, so 
feel free to ignore me. :)



Steve:
> Let's shift for a moment to Umbridge. People absolutely want the 
evil
> and vile Umbridge punished. But in real life, few politicians ever
> suffer punishment in proportion to their crimes. Congress in the 
USA
> has pretty much insulated themselves from ever facing true justice 
for
> their actions. 
> 
> In Umbridge's case, wouldn't (or would) you say that Umbridge being
> dragged off into the forest by Centaur, an action that left her in 
a
> catatonic state, and with a deep seated fear of Centaurs, and a
> substantial lose of humility, was enough of a punishment? 

Alla:

Sorry, Steve, but you keep missing my point about Umbridge. My point 
is not that I really, really want her to be punished, although of 
course I do and make no secret of it. :)

My main point is that I am pretty confident that Umbridge will be 
punished. Why? Because Jo said so. I believe  and again JMO, that Jo 
is that kind of writer, where contrary to reality ( where as you 
correctly stated corrupt politicians do not always get punished), 
she is not shy of giving their dues to the bad guys and those who 
are not punished yet, will be, IMO


"MA: Are we going to see more of her? [Jo nods.] You say that with an
evil nod.

JKR: Yeah, it's too much fun to torture her not to have another
little bit more before I finish."

To me it is quite clear that Jo WILL torture Umbridge before she 
finishes the books.

I am quite OK with that, you know, as long as the punishment is 
realistically woven into the plot.


So, to answer your question, spending time with the centaurs COULD 
be nice karmic punishment, but since JKR said that more is coming, I 
personally can't wait. :)



Steve:
> Snape's actions must be acknowledge, not just swept under the rug 
and
> ignore. Umbridge's actions must be acknowledged and not just sweep
> under the rug and ignored. But does it actually have to be 
punishment,
> or are we simply looking for face-to-face acknowledgement? I would 
say
> that the scenario I painted between Harry and Umbridge certainly
> qualifies as 'comeuppance', Harry soundly puts her in her place, 
but
> not as punishment.


Alla:

Well, see above, we don't actually disagree that much, although we 
do disagree I guess on who will be doing the confrontations. :-)

I also want to stay for the record that even if Snape will not be 
punished, I will not call Jo a bad writer. :-) 

I will just be disappointed, I suppose. :-)

JMO,