Snape and Neville (was:Re: Hagrid and Snape's teaching method)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 143953

> >>Magpie:
> I think what it mostly comes down to is that this is Snape.       
> Teachers are who they are in class, and for Snape when somebody   
> isn't doing what he wants, he does what he does to Neville.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, exactly.  I don't think Snape somehow picked Neville out from 
the herd as a boy he could gleefully torture.  I think he's merely 
teaching Neville as he'd teach any non-Slytherin having such big 
problems with Potions.

> >>Magpie:
> I suspect he does a modified version for Crabbe and Goyle, though 
> they don't have the same problems Neville does in class.

Betsy Hp:
I suspect that Snape is just as hard on his Slytherins but in a very 
private way.  He's too well respected and listened to by his 
Slytherins (Draco's rebellion in HBP came as a shock to Snape, I 
think) for me to believe that Snape coddles them excessively.

I think what Slytherins get from Snape is a break on the public 
humiliation.  If either Crabbe or Goyle had Neville's potion 
problems I think Snape would either point out their problems quietly 
or give them a detention and work with them (with the same refusal 
to accept failure) privately.

It's not fair, but I think it's Snape's way of supporting his 
Slytherins and sticking it to the man, while at the same time making 
sure his Slytherins meet his expectations as well. 

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> Does he see it working?  I'd guess anything he doesn't see working 
> he chalks up to Neville being hopeless or still not listening--but 
> I do think he probably does on some level think that this will    
> work. I don't mean that he's got some plan or that he really wants 
> Neville to improve as a student, but more that he is locked into   
> his own logic about the situation.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm, I actually think Snape really *does* want Neville to succeed.  
Not necessarily because he wants *Neville* to succeed, but because 
he doesn't want to fail as a teacher.  I think Snape is the type to 
see his students' performance as a reflection of his own performance 
as a teacher.  So I think he'd do everything possible to keep a 
student from out and out failing, because Snape just does not accept 
failure.  I think the fact that he teaches above level is a 
reflection of that drive.

Otherwise, I think Snape would leave Neville alone.  Maybe use 
Neville as a convenient target for his acid wit, but not take so 
much time to force Neville to do the potion correctly.  He'd go on 
and on about how Neville is sure to fail out and how much Snape is 
looking forward to that blessed day, and then probably throw in 
something about disappointed family, since that would really wound.  
But working and working and working with Neville (I get this from 
Harry's comment that Snape kept bullying Neville in PoA) is hard on 
Snape as well.  And I don't see Snape putting forth that effort 
unless he really did plan on Neville passing Potions.

> >>Magpie:
> Also, I do tend to agree with Pippin that, for instance, Snape's 
> being Neville's boggart isn't about Snape so much as Neville.  
> <snip>
> But I think Snape represents many adults who consider Neville a   
> failure and useless, and the part of himself that believes it and 
> can't get away from it.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I recall reading a theory (Redhen, I think?) about Neville having a 
great fear of magic, and his long time under the Sorting Hat was him 
trying to convince the Hat that sorry, he really is a squib and 
he'll just go home now, thanks.  The theory, as I remember it, was 
that Neville sort of self-sabotages himself for a while because he'd 
really, really prefer to have nothing to do with magic.

And I think it's interesting that Neville's grandmother is his 
second choice on the boggart list.  Because I get the impression 
that Mrs. Longbottom would greatly approve of Snape's methodology.  
So I wonder if part of his boggart (I like Pippin's theory, too) 
isn't for those adults who force him to engage with his magic.  I 
think it is tied in to Neville's feeling that he's a failure, but I 
think it might have more to do with those who don't let him remain a 
failure.  Does that make sense?

> >>Magpie:
> <major snip>
> I think the important classes for Neville are often the ones where 
> he's singled out somehow.  He does well with Lupin not just        
> because Lupin is a good teacher who's good with Neville, but      
> because he stands there and makes Neville do it.  It's always     
> seemed to me that Neville's way of dealing with constantly being   
> told he's useless is to say he's useless, sort of passively giving 
> up to avoid the hassle.

Betsy Hp:
I think this is what I'm trying to get at.  I think Neville would 
prefer to just be left alone to fail quietly in a corner.  Lupin, by 
making it into a sort of game, kind of snuck up on Neville.  

> >>Magpie:
> It makes sense, but he can't do it with Snape.  If Neville says he 
> can't do it, Snape makes him do it anyway.  I'm not 
> congratulating Snape for this like he's got good intentions--     
> Sprout is no doubt better by not letting Neville give up because   
> he's *talented*--but I wouldn't be surprised if Rowling ultimately 
> saw the lesson of Neville/Snape being about Neville getting       
> through it rather than Neville's childhood hurts being soothed.

Betsy Hp:
I *do* think well of Snape for not giving up on Neville.  I think 
Snape had a harder row to hoe in many ways, because Neville wasn't 
all that great at Potions.  It's hard to judge Sprout's methods 
since we really don't get a good glimpse of her interaction with 
Neville, but she may have benefited from Neville being naturally 
gifted with plants.

What we *do* see about Neville is that when he puts his mind to 
something, he can learn.  We see this in Harry's DA club.  Neville 
started out as the worst student in the club; no one would partner 
with him.  But by the end of the year, after a huge amount of effort 
on Neville's part (Harry comments on it, IIRC) he reaches a point 
where he's the last of the kids to fall to the Death Eaters at the 
DoM battle.

I agree that JKR was looking more towards Neville being made of 
sterner stuff than his classmates credit him for when she put the 
Snape/Neville clash in the books.  Because Neville doesn't fold, he 
raises up to Snape's challenge and he's back for Potions the next 
year.  And, IIRC, after PoA Neville is much more consistent in 
Potions.  He's not the next half-blood Prince by any means, but I 
think he does all right.  (Better than Harry, at times, IIRC.)

[I snipped that part of your post, but I think there's a good sized 
theme in the books about boys stepping out of the shadow of their 
families.  Neville and Draco, of course, but Ron needs to as well in 
his own way, and even Harry seems to be breaking away from the 
almost mythical view he has of his parents.]

Betsy Hp