[HPforGrownups] Re: In Defense of Hagrid - Jumping into the Fray

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 144027

Steve:

> This discussion has gone on for quite a while (at least in Internet
> time), and I thought I should drop back in and once again try to add
> some perspective to the debate.

Magpie:

Which means I guess I'm back too. (And believe me, I'm not enjoying it any 
more than anyone else, but I knew it'd be a long haul when I brought the 
subject up and perversely decided to stick it out.)

Steve:

> When his first year is a total failure, he thinks about it over the
> summer and decides to try an new approach. That next year, he decides
> to make a project out of it; the Blast-End Skrewts. <snip descriptions>

Magpie

I don't think the Skrewts are the kind of idea you're presenting them as 
here.  It's weeks of kids fooling around with things that sting and 
burn--classes Hermione describes as not "proper lessons"--that Hagrid finds 
interesting because he's enchanted by his creations (presumably not on any 
OWLS or NEWTS) and isn't really aware of how the class is responding to them 
for weeks.  One class ends with half the class running away.  In fifth year 
he gets caught out saying the Thestrels as "not dangerous" when he means 
they "will take a piece out of you if you annoy 'em."

But yes, it's not like Hagrid is getting worse and worse--there are times 
we're told he's getting better or hasn't been so bad lately (maybe his focus 
on Grawp helps him in class).  But your characterization of him here sounds 
unnecessarily rose-colored.

Steve:
> None the less, Malfoy is watching when Harry is invited to approach
> the hippogriff. Clearly anyone and everyone see the potential danger.
> The problem is Harry is successful, and Malfoy in his arrogance, can't
> abide Harry out doing him. With that same arrogance and distain,
> Malfoy ignore everything he should have heard, and everything he HAD
> seen, and does exactly the opposite of what any reasonable and
> rational person would do. >
> After Harry's success, and before Malfoy acts like the idiot he is,
> the rest of the class are interacting with the Hippogriff with
> reasonable caution and reasonable success; all of which Malfoy witnesses.
>


Magpie:

I feel canon subtly changing again, and seeing a difference between this 
description and what you've quoted:  Malfoy whispers with his friends at the 
beginning of Hagrid's talk, when Hagrid says the insulting thing--he's 
possibly whispering something mean or plotting something bad.  Malfoy 
watches the demonstration.

He does not do anything near "the opposite of what a reasonable, rational 
person would do."  He does exactly what the rest of the class does: he bows 
to the hippogriff etc.  He's not watching everyone else, stewing, and then 
deciding to do something dumb.  He's just one of the class, doing the same 
thing as everyone else.  He pets the hippogriff, like everyone else.  As 
he's petting it, he calls it a great ugly brute.

It's not like he takes out a frying pan and starts hitting the thing or 
climbs up on its back for a ride like Hagrid just had Harry do.  He 
certainly does make a big mistake, all on his own, because he wasn't 
listening when he should have been, but he's not acting like a maniac. 
Having, he thinks, done everything right, he's cockily saying, "Ha, that 
wasn't so scary."

Steve:

> Under no circumstance could anyone say that Malfoy is justified in
> making such a statement.

Magpie:

No, he's not justified in making it.  He's a kid in a class trying to look 
cool.

Steve:
It's fine that he is minimizing Harry role in
> the hippogriffs, but there really is no reason or point in insulting
> the hippogriff itself. Malfoy has clearly decided he knows more that
> that oaf of a teacher, and chooses to freely and unnecessarily insult
> a dangerous creature

Magpie:

He has not decided he knows more than the teacher (about this at least). 
That suggests he heard Hagrid say not to insult the hippogriff, understood 
that this meant they understood English like a human being, and does not 
believe Hagrid so decides to do it anyway.   I don't think Malfoy is that 
brave to chance that.  He'd rather just be snotty and safe at the same time. 
(Oops, should have been more attentive then, Draco.)  If he was deciding he 
knew better he wouldn't have bowed etc.

 Steve:
> As a result Malfoy pays for his self-absorbed arrogance.

Magpie

Yes, he pays for not listening closely to Hagrid at all times in class, and 
learns that some animals (hippogriffs) know when you're insulting them and 
react accordingly! Cause and effect there.  It wasn't Hagrid who insulted 
the animal.

Steve:

> But, in fiction and in real-life, we do not live in an 'idiot proof'
> world. There are idiots and they will hurt themselves, and they will
> certainly whine and cry that the world should have protected them, and
> that, idiots that they are, they shouldn't be held responsible for
> their own idiotic actions.

Steve:

Yes, which is why if Hagrid can be held accountable for his idiotic actions 
too.  And is sometimes pretty good at the whining and crying thing as well.

Steve:
> So, in this one incident, Hagrid can't escape responsibility because
> he was in charge and that makes it his responsibility, but on the
> other hand, you can't blame the world or Hagrid because some people
> are idiots. Idiots can and will get hurt because they are
> self-absorbed, self-indulgant, irresponsible idiots; that's life.

Magpie
And that's Hagrid, plenty of times.  Self-absorbed would cover weeks of 
classes on Hagrid's private creations, the Skrewts, without noticing the 
real reactions of the students.  Irresponsible would be most of his dealings 
with Norbert with the kids first year.  Some people would probably suggest 
that "self-absorbed, self-indulgant, irresponsible idiots" could for short 
be said "kids."  Though it could sometimes also apply to Hagrid, which is 
why he's often described as being a big kid.

Steve:
> Of course, there is no denying that hippogriffs were too advanced for
> third years. But again, I'm back to Hagrid not understanding his job.
> He is focusing on '...Magical Creature' when he should be focusing on
> 'Care of...'.

Magpie
So Malfoy being an idiot is him being an idiot, but Hagrid being an idiot is 
Hagrid not understanding his job in some understandable way that does not 
make him an idiot. Malfoy's a self-absorbed jerk for not hearing "don't 
insult one," but Hagrid's missing the first two words of his class is just 
the first step on his Mr. Chips-like career.  Can't they both have moments 
when they're idiots?

Steve:
>
> Still, in Harry OWL year, Hagrid seems to have mellowed. He seems to
> be getting his teaching legs.

Magpie:
Mm-hmm.  And Malfoy's a Prefect who seems to do pretty well on his OWLS and 
makes a point of not only listening in Hagrid's class, but asking "dumb 
questions" about safety.

Steve:
 And while it is a slow process, I think
> he will finally figure his job out. In the future I have no problem
> seeing Hagrid presenting age appropraite creatures with full
> information on their care and feeding, enhanced by an occasional
> 'interesting creature' presented in an age appropriate way. For
> example, while he may let 4th or 5th years approach and pet a
> hippogriff, he would only let younger student see them while he
> explained some of their interesting characteristics.

Magpie:
We can imagine Hagrid any way we like in the future, sure.

Steve:
> I think we need to give Hagrid a chance as a teacher.

Magpie:

I've got no problem giving him a chance as a teacher.  With one book to go, 
we may only hear about CoMC being a wildly popular class in future.  If not, 
lots of classes aren't wildly popular.  He doesn't have to be perfect.

Steve:

> One last note on the Draco/Hippogriff incident. I think people on
> polar sides of this argument are simply trying to present a
> perspective. Those who say Draco is at fault are not totally absolving
> Hagrid, they are merely saying the Draco cause his own injuries. Those
> who are saying Hagrid is at fault, are not absolving Draco of being an
> arrogant idiot who acted in an unbelievably stupid manner and against
> all common sense and obvious signs. They are merely saying that Hagrid
> was in charge, he was responsible for the safety of his students, and
> he can never escape that responsibility.

Magpie:

Hey, I'm all for balance.  But that's why I only accept a balance that gives 
both Hagrid and Malfoy responsibilty for his worse actions.  Not one where 
Hagrid's responsibility is just a technicality.  That, to me, is not a fair 
and balanced approach any more than it would be to say this:

"Those who say Hagrid is at fault are not totally absolving Draco, they are 
merely saying Hagrid caused his injuries. Those who are saying Draco is at 
fault, are not absolving Hagrid of being an
arrogant idiot who acted in an unbelievably stupid manner and against all 
common sense and obvious signs. They are merely saying that Draco was a 
student, he was responsible for listening to the teacher, and he can never 
escape that responsibility."

Now, does that sentence really sound balanced?  Or does it sound like 
Hagrid's really to blame but I'm paying lip-service to Draco's 
responsibility?  That's not what I saw happening. (And yet it's scary how 
easily it switches around.)

Canon-wise, I am perfectly satisfied with the way Rowling handled this 
incident.  Malfoy gets a bad gash on the arm for insulting a hippogriff and 
not listening to Hagrid.  He has to continue dealing with Hagrid--he doesn't 
get to blame it all on the teacher--and learns if he doesn't listen he might 
get hurt.  That Malfoy is shown being comically jumpy about missing 
something Hagrid's said implies he gets that much.  Hagrid also deals with 
consequences of his actions--Malfoy becomes a Greek Chorus in his class. 
He's an unpopular teacher, a "bit of a joke."  In sixth year his main 
supporters are not going to go so far as to take his class.

-m