[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's punishment a "moral" issue? and Snape and Slughorn's forgiveness/culpability

[lady.indigo at gmail.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 144128

*pops in*
This may be a bit muddled,  as I'm responding to several points and
subpoints at once.  This is what comes of me only following this group
sporadically.

Pippin wrote:
"But what about the families of Hepzibah Smith, Hokey the House Elf,
Cedric Diggory and all the others who have not been informed as
to the reasons for Harry's enterprise? Who don't even know that it
is thanks to Horace Slughorn's information that Voldemort murdered
the people they loved? Would they all be as willing to pardon Slughorn
as Harry is? What right does Harry have to speak for them?"

I wrote:
I think when it comes to Slughorn you're missing the fact that he's too
drunk to remember any of the scene in the morning.  He has no idea that
Harry's "pardoned" him, which I really think was something Harry just said
to get the memory anyway, so his guilt and shame are still things he has to
live with daily.   To me that makes forgiveness towards Slughorn almost
irrelevant in terms of the actual characters, so it doesn't matter who has a
right to dole it out.  (Arguably, of course.)  Harry isn't God or even a
priest; he can't promise forgiveness from higher powers and a peaceful
afterlife.  His behavior and attitude to Slughorn in the present hasn't
changed much, at least not yet; like someone said upthread, he didn't even
know what Slughorn's transgression WAS yet.  Dumbledore will stop hounding
him for the memory, but that's all.   And Slughorn's still pained and
feeling responsible for the deaths of many, including one of his favorite
students, and possibly for not realizing in time that Tom was stealing the
Slytherin house out from under him.  It's not a relevant gesture, really,
because it doesn't help Harry and it doesn't help Slughorn, doesn't lead
either of them to any better place in terms of both their own comfort or
their growth as a person.

Either way, all Harry has a right to is his own personal feelings towards
Slughorn for good or ill.  He's not part of a court and thus not capable of
dealing out any other kind of justice, unless he acts outside the law.   And
that's all he has a right to with regard to Snape, too, unless he's given
special privileges at the end of Book 7.

Alla wrote:
"You are saying that forgiveness is something that Snape needs, OK,
fair enough, but I don't see even that in the text. If I will see
that Snape needs, wants forgiveness from Harry, I may even be happy
with that.

Anything to show me that Harry's gift to Snape will not go in vain,
you know."

I wrote:
As far as Snape goes, because I do remember that's what people are actually
talking about in this thread ^_^, there's a huge difference between him and
Slughorn in way of intent.    Slughorn's venial sins, shortsightedness, and
eagerness to kiss up led Tom to find a new reason to commit murders he might
very well have committed anyway to serve other interests - murders Slughorn
never would have assisted in or approved of, involving information he'd
never have given had he knew.   Snape, on the other hand, absolutely knew
what he was doing when he did it and directly acted to aid someone's greater
evil.  It's not the same thing at all in terms of their moral
responsibility.

But when it comes to Snape, morally, you have to sort of divide your
perceptions into pre- and post-Harry, and into forgiveness and redemption.
Harry forgiving Snape for his parents, which (assuming DDM!Snape) has
already been repented for, is a very different animal from Harry forgiving
Snape for being cruel to him, which Snape has never said he's sorry or made
amends for.   They're entirely seperate incidents with fairly seperate
contexts.  But both are very much for *Harry's* sake, in terms of Harry's
growth and Harry being the bigger person.  If forgiveness from Harry helps
evolve Snape into a better person, great.  Then it won't have been 'in vain'
and Snape will slowly move away from bastarddom, maybe even be happier.  But
if it doesn't, then Snape will be no better or worse served and neither will
Harry; if Snape doesn't care then it won't make any difference to him.
That's not the point of personally forgiving someone.  Forgiveness from
Harry is not forgiveness from God.


Pippin said:
"The thing for me is that Harry tells Slughorn that his shame will be
cancelled out if he gives Harry the memory, or that's the way I read it.
You can certainly argue that Harry had no right at all to say such a
thing, but nevertheless he did. And I think that if Dumbledore held
out such a pardon to Snape, it is Harry's duty, as Dumbledore's man
to honor it."

Would Harry be able to NOT honor it?  The deal is that Snape is free from
Azkaban and able to serve as a spy against Voldemort; this will be his
redemption.  The wizarding world has accepted this.  Harry can't reneg on
that unless Snape really did turn traitor to Dumbledore, or if Harry
posesses evidence of Snape's innocence that will keep him from prison and
must decide whether or not to disclose it.  Snape's fate over the specific
incidents Dumbledore forgave him for has already been decided.  All Harry
can speak about otherwise is Snape's verbal bullying towards his students,
and his unwillingness to hear the truth about Sirius.  When Dumbledore
extended the pardon, these very seperate things hadn't been done yet.

Either way, again, it's Harry's decision whether he'll personally decide to
forgive Snape for either set of sins.  That's different from justice being
served for Snape's crimes, or finding another avenue for Snape's further
redemption.  It's even different from Snape's redemption in the eyes of the
WW vs. redemption in the eyes of a higher power or even the eyes of the
readers.  And we as those readers should treat it differently.

- Lady Indigo


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