Snape Harry and forgiveness/ judaism related/Canon for the Snape being abusive

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 144240

Alla:

I finally found the quote, which I was looking for about forgiveness. 
I am bringing it up to show what kind of forgiveness I would like to 
see Harry give to Snape, if ANY. I much prefer Snape to suffer a lot 
of course, but I do think that forgiveness will come to him at the 
end. 

One more thing, even though this is a quote from Judaism religious 
text, I am not a religious scholar, far from it,I am not even 
practising, I only know basics, so this quote is taken from the 
Internet and most likely out of context, so no offense is meant to 
any religious scholars. 

The reason I am bringing it up has nothing to do with religion at 
all, I just  find the spirit of forgiveness ( man to man, not G-d to 
man)in Judaism as I understand it, to be very similar to what I as a 
reader would love to see in the books forgiveness wise.

Here it is:
The Rambam in Hilchot Teshuvah (Laws of Repentance) 2:9-10, writes: 
"Repentance and Yom Kippur only atone for sins between Man and G-d 
such as eating forbidden foods or engaging in forbidden sexual 
relations. *Sins between one man and his fellow, such as striking, 
cursing, or robbing are never forgiven until one pays up his debt and 
appeases his fellow.*(emphasis mine) Even if he returns the money he 
owes he still must ask for forgiveness. Even if he only spoke badly 
about him he must appease and beseech until he is forgiven. If his 
fellow refuses to forgive him then he must bring a group of three of 
his friends (presumably the injured party's friends) and go to him 
and ask him [for forgiveness]. If he still does not forgive him he 
must go to him a second and third time (with three other people). If 
he still refuses to forgive him he may cease and the other is the 
sinner. If [the injured party] is his teacher (rebbe) he must go to 
him even a thousand times till he is forgiven. It is forbidden to be 
cruel and difficult to appease, rather, a person must be quick to 
forgive and difficult to anger and when the sinner asks for 
forgiveness he should forgive him willingly and wholeheartedly...." 

The Shulchan Aruch, Orech Chaim 606:1 in the Laws of Yom Kippur, says 
essentially the same thing adding that one may withhold forgiveness 
if it is for the good of the person asking. It may be appropriate to 
withhold forgiveness to teach the supplicant not to take it lightly. 
Withholding forgiveness may also be permitted when someone spread 
false rumors about you but then it says that in such a case one 
should still forgive. "


Alla:

So, sins between man to man are NEVER forgiven untill one ASKS for 
forgiveness. Of course another person is obligated to grant the 
forgiveness if asked for, but what I LOVE is that the one who needs 
forgiveness has to WORK for it and THIS is what I would love to see 
happened between Snape and Harry. I don't need JKR spend pages on it, 
one or two sentences would be enough for me to imagine the rest, but 
I want to see a hint, ANYTHING that Snape feels remorse and wants 
Harry's forgiveness if that is what to come for them. Of course, JMO 
and my opinion only.





> Betsy Hp:
> These posts are great (though I think the link for Vmonte's is off -
 
> it should be: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/122172 )   
> because they do actually provide canon to be discussed.  However, 
> and this is where I think people get a bit frustrated, they don't 
> actually show Snape commiting "child abuse"


Alla:

NO, Betsy, I disagree. YOU don't think that they show Snape 
committing child abuse and again this is your absolute right, IMO, 
but I  do think that those quotes show really well Snape being a 
child abuser, so this is your opinion,not a fact. Just as my 
interpretation of those quotes is an opinion,not a fact of course.

So, my point is that no matter how much canon I provide, you most 
likely won't ever see Snape as child abuser ( I hope I am not 
misinterpreting you here) and that is your view of the character, 
which I understand. I see him as child abuser and this is my view of 
the character, which is as EQUALLY supported by the canon as your 
view. Not a mean , snarky teacher, not a teacher who provides tough 
love, but as at very least emotional abuser and someone who is prone 
to physical abuse, IMO.

Just because you disagree with the canon, does not mean that it does 
not support my POV just as it supports yours. Same canon can support 
many opposing arguments, IMO. If I would make a claim about Snape 
being a child abuser without providing ANY canon support, that IMO 
would be different story.


JMO,

Alla