Canon for the Snape being abusive

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 144252

> > Betsy Hp:
> > These posts are great...because they do actually provide canon to
> > be discussed.  However, and this is where I think people get a bit
> > frustrated, they don't actually show Snape commiting "child abuse"

> Alla:
> 
> NO, Betsy, I disagree. YOU don't think that they show Snape 
> committing child abuse and again this is your absolute right, IMO, 
> but I  do think that those quotes show really well Snape being a 
> child abuser, so this is your opinion,not a fact. Just as my 
> interpretation of those quotes is an opinion,not a fact of course.

Christina:

First of all, I'd just like to point out that, while you did provide
canon examples to defend your argument (and some of them are obviously
points that can defend your position), some of the examples given are
ridiculous.  I don't know how anybody can deem Snape abusive for
saying to Hermione: "Miss Granger... five more points from Gryffindor
for being an insufferable know-it-all."  That is unfair, biased
behavior from Snape.  That is in no way abusive.

Secondly, as Betsy has stated, the problem with the child abuse issue
is when people state unequivocally that Snape is a child abuser when
talking about him, which offers no preamble of the issue being
anything about opinion.  Nobody is saying that you aren't entitled to
your opinions, but like you say, they are *opinions* and they should
not be stated as fact.


> Alla:
> So, my point is that no matter how much canon I provide, you most 
> likely won't ever see Snape as child abuser ( I hope I am not 
> misinterpreting you here)

Christina:

Well, you've got me down.  That's absolutely my position.  The problem
is not in the canon, it is in everyone's personal definition of child
abuse and what we think meets that definition.  Emotional child abuse
is now just beginning to get the recognition it deserves, so it is
unfortunately poorly defined and understood.  

This is the last time I'm going to defend my personal view of child
abuse, because I don't think personal definition is really the way we
should be looking at this.  I would like to offer up this quote, which
details the punishment that McGonagall gave Neville when Sirius Black
stole the passwords he had written out:

"Neville was in total disgrace.  Professor McGonagall was so furious
with him she had banned him from all future Hogsmeade visits, given
him a detention, and forbidden anyone to give him the password into
the tower.  Poor Neville was forced to wait outside the common room
every night for somebody to let him in, while the security trolls
leered unpleasantly at him." (PoA, Scholastic, page 271)

Do you consider this abuse?  After all, McGonagall punishes Neville
with things that entail further humiliation.  He is forced into a
situation where he is AFRAID (much like those days in Snape's
classroom).  IIRC, it is also McGonagall who sends Neville, Malfoy,
Harry & co, into the Forbidden Forest for a detention.  Even Malfoy is
emotionally distressed by this, and Neville gives a moan when he
figures out where they are going.  Hagrid supports this punishment
completely.  Are McGonagall and Hagrid child abusers as well (and by
extension, Dumbledore)?  If we are going to apply one definition to
Snape, surely we should judge everyone against that same standard, no?
 And yet there are no big posts condemning McGonagall of child abuse.

Now that that's done, I think one has to ask oneself how important
each of our individual definitions of abuse are.  I would think that
most important definition of child abuse (and the one that should
rightly be used when judging Snape), is the standard that is set by
the wizarding world, *in canon.*  First of all, Dumbledore never takes
any action against Snape.  Snape's behavior in class is pretty
consistant through his years of teaching, which shows that Dumbledore
has never forced him to "tone it down" or anything like that.  Other
members of the WW have even expressed the idea that Dumbledore is
quite free-thinking and progressive when it comes to punishment and
education-related policies (Umbridge and Filch express this opinion; I
think Lucius Malfoy may have as well), but as far as we know, even he
has shown no displeasure at the way Snape treats his students.  

No trouble has come to Snape for his teaching from outside sources,
meaning that the other teachers surrounding him (Lupin, McGonagall,
Flitwick, etc.) either did not consider his behavior abuse, or did
consider it abuse and couldn't get anything done about it (which says
a lot about what the WW considers abuse in the first place).  

We know that at some recent time, physically punishing students was
allowed.  Filch laments that the kids wouldn't be so keen on
misbehaving if they had known that they could be strung up in his
office or be "whipped raw."  I guess you could argue that this doesn't
necessarily mean that Filch was ever able to do those things, but I
think it certainly implies it.  He says that Umbridge is passing a
decree that will allow him to do those things.  Even if he is
exaggerating, we know that Umbridge does give approval for whipping
students, because Filch goes to get it from her office.  In a world
where *whipping* students is deemed an acceptable punishment, does it
really seem like anybody is going to care that Snape punishes Neville
by telling him that his potion will be fed to his toad?

> Alla:
> I see him as child abuser and this is my view of 
> the character, which is as EQUALLY supported by the canon as your 
> view. Not a mean , snarky teacher, not a teacher who provides tough 
> love, but as at very least emotional abuser and someone who is prone 
> to physical abuse, IMO.

Christina:

The fact is, canon supports Snape acting in a way that YOU consider
child abuse, and your opinion on that issue is perfectly valid;
however, when you look at the wizarding world, canon *clearly* states
that Snape is NOT a child abuser.  He is not considered one by the
world he lives in, which is the canon world.  Before you argue that a
society's view of a subject is not necessarily a correct one, I'd like
to point out that nobody in the WW calls Snape abusive, even the
people that we accept as the most forward of thinkers.  Harry says
that he is unfair, a greasy git, annoying, biased, and mean, but never
once does Harry say, "Somebody should put a stop to Snape's teaching
because he is totally abusive."  Likewise with Hermione, who I would
say has a much more progressive view of things like racism and
violence than even Harry does.  Same with Dumbledore, who is the most
progressive figure that we have probably met (and who is considered
exceptionally free-thinking by most people).  Nobody expresses the
idea that Snape is a child abuser but us.


Christina
(wishing that Yahoo! Groups had a spell-checker)