What cultural standards we are using to determine whether Snape is abusive ?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 144306

> Orna:
> I agree with you in respect to this. Maybe I should clarify myself: 
> I thought it was worthwhile to think about what is considered abuse 
> in the WW, precisely because it would help us to understand what 
> this culture is. ( I may decide then, that it's a very corrupted 
> society, or that JKR will have to punish Snape severely if I am to 
> accept the WW as a human world)
> 
> And anyway, we do accept deviations from our cultural norms -   I 
> mean it's obvious nobody in his right mind would send his child to 
a 
> school, where his child might have to fight dragons, where three-
> headed dogs are kept in a corridor, behind a very easy-opening 
door, 
> etc. Not exactly a very responsible headmaster. <snip> 
It is more salient when we come to direct human relations – that's 
> where we expect the same standards, otherwise – what's the point of 
> the book. And after all, wizards seem to fall in love, get hurt, 
> angry etc. by just the same rules, which apply to muggles, like us. 
> So your point is valid, IMO, but still I think that we do expect 
> different standards in some places. 
> Different cultures do have rightly some difference in what is 
> considered right or wrong, because the impact of the deed may be 
> different. Just like you have different standards towards children 
> of various ages – so don't you think your behavioral standards 
would 
> be different towards a child who can fly, heal instantly, and do 
> magic?
> 
> There are things, which are just wrong, no cultural perspective 
being 
> a possible excuse for them. But I think that's the thing we are 
> trying to figure out, and I just thought that deciphering the moral 
> codes and "abuse standards" of the WW might help to understand it - 
> in relation to the WW, and also in relation to our own muggle 
world. 



Alla:

Actually, Orna I do agree with your POV in many aspects and disagree 
in some or maybe not. Forgive me for babbling, please.

Personally, I DO consider Snape's defense as not abusive by the 
standards of WW society one of the strongest ones, sort of. What I do 
not consider a strong argument is the defense of the society, which 
does nothing about Snape. JMO of course :-)


If one does NOT view WW as reflection of our society than OF COURSE 
it is a perfectly valid argument that since society does not think 
that Snape is doing something abnormal, then it is OK in THAT 
society, IMO.

I said many times I believe that JKR writes about our world plus 
adding magic to it and also exaggerating some good and some ugly 
things in this world.(Making some characters to be caricatures, 
stereotypes, etc.)

That is why I also agree with you that standards of safety during the 
lessons could not be comparable.
You could wonders with magic - heal wounds fast, etc and we do know 
that wisarding kids are physically more resilient.

What we do NOT know IMO is that whether wisarding kids are 
emotionally more resilient than "muggle" kids  and IMO they are not. 
That is why I am very much in doubt that JKR intends US the readers 
to take Snape's behavior as something innocent, even if WW could care 
less. JMO obviously.

I think Cristina said upthread that Dumbledore approves Snape's 
behavior, so it is fine, since Dumbledore is supposed to be the most 
progressive thinker in WW. ( Christina, sorry if I misinterpreted 
you :))

I DO think that Dumbledore is supposed to be the most progressive 
thinker in WW, what I am not sure I agree with is that Dumbledore 
approves Snape's teaching methods. 

I think he does ( and I know it had been brought up) what he did with 
Hagrid ( and that is what JKR said in interview) Dumbledore let 
Hagrid think over things on his own, hoping that he would snap out of 
his misery and only after he did not, DD went to him.

I speculate that Dumbledore was hoping that Snape would figure out on 
his own  how wrong  he is, but alas that never happened.

Do I think that Dumbledore was wrong to not interfere? Yes, I think 
so, but I am not sure I agree his non-interference equals agreeing 
with Snape. IMO of course.

I speculate that at the end of the books we will see some change at 
least started in cultural norms of WW. It is not like everything 
would be radically changed, of course, but I do hope that we will at 
least see some change. 

I am a big fan of Pip's post about WW rebirth like Phoenix (it is in 
the recommended posts), but again, I would love to see even something 
less radical.

Right, so about change in Hogwarts. Regardless of whatever awaits 
Snape in the future, I think many list members will agree that chance 
of him returning to Hogwarts as teacher is very slim (IMO of course) -
McGonagall did say that it is unheard in the history of Hogwarts that 
Headmaster was killed by one of the teachers,right?

So, even under the best-case scenario ( Snape is completely DD!M) I 
sincerely doubt that Snape will be given free reign to teach ever 
again. Again, JMHO.

Personally if it is true, I think it is a beginning of VERY positive 
change in Hogwarts culture, even if only by default.

And again, allow me to disclaim - I do NOT think that story will be 
good without Snape, of course not, but him not in Hogwarts at the end 
of the books - yes, I do like this case scenario.


Only my opinion,

Alla