Neville and Snape (was What standards are we using)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 144357

> Alla:
> 
> Forgive me for asking again , but I just want to be sure - is the 
> gist of your argument that Snape is not to be blamed for what he 
does 
> to Harry and Neville AT ALL? That nothing is Snape's fault, that 
> Neville is at fault for being so terrified of Snape and Harry is at 
> fault for talking back to Snape and being James'son?
> 
> I am not being sarcastic here, Pippin, I honestly want to know, 
> because from the past discussions on those topics we had I got the 
> impression that your position is very different from what you seem 
to 
> be arguing now. I guess I misinterpreted you either now or back then,


Magpie:

I'm not Pippin--so please correct me if I'm wrong here, Pippin!--but 
as I'm understanding what she is saying, it's not that Snape isn't to 
blame for his own actions.  His bullying Neville is a bad thing, no 
matter how Neville reacts to it.  Even if Neville laughed it off that 
would not make it good of Snape or even not nasty of Snape to do it.

But I think what she's also saying is that from JKR's pov the 
importance to Neville is to learn not to give Snape the power to make 
him feel badly--this is where the boggart comes in.  I think you've 
said you consider it very serious that Snape is Neville's greatest 
fear, that this shows that Snape has seriously damaged him.  I see 
just what you mean, but to me Neville's boggart read as potentially 
very positive, particularly given that it used to be considered quite 
possible that Neville remembered his parents torture etc.  To me that 
boggart proved that Neville was in this respect a normal kid with a 
normal kid fear--he fears the mean teacher in whose class he does 
badly and who yells at him to succeed when he doesn't think he can.  
Snape seems more monstrous to Neville because Neville is young and 
insecure (and, as I think I said before, I think he represents stuff 
he finds painful about home which goes straight to his fears about 
himself).  But Neville *conquers* Snape with his Riddikulus spell, 
makes him look foolish and ridiculous--he's in Neville's power and the 
class is laughing with him.  Scary teachers sometimes become not scary 
at all when you grow up, and that is what JKR may be going for with 
Neville.  As Neville grows, the adults stay the same size--and Snape 
may shrink.

Neville's boggart may very well have changed to something more serious 
by now (you have to wonder when you see Mrs. Weasley deal with hers--
how on earth does one make the death of one's children funny?  I guess 
she'd have to think of each one of them only pretending to be dead 
when she did the Riddikulus spell).  Neville's boggart now might be 
something more Bellatrix-related, or the sight of more of his loved 
ones driven insane, or his mother being hurt again and feeling he let 
her down now that he's old enough to think about protecting her.  He 
was able to face Bellatrix with bravery even though she through a 
Crucio at him, so I don't know that it would be Bellatrix herself.  
When you think about it, it's maybe odd that Neville is more afraid of 
Snape in PoA when he's been visiting his parents regularly for years, 
though obviously that would have been far too serious for the boggart 
class in PoA.  Perhaps that's because Neville really thought about his 
parents' condition too deeply before--this is just the way they've 
always been.  Personally, I can easily imagine Barty Crouch filling 
him in on just how awful their condition is when he has tea with 
Neville in GoF (Barty who just happily demonstrated Crucio in front of 
him, scary him far more than he's ever been in Snape's class, and with 
even more sadistic intent).  

As for Pip's saying that Dumbledore has told Harry that Snape can't 
leave him alone, I think again what she means is that Dumbledore is 
telling Harry that Snape is weaker than he is.  Of course Snape should 
leave him alone, but apparently he's not going to be able to be a 
better man like Harry presumably can.  This in many ways may be the 
biggest tragic flaw in Snape, that he can't prioritize, can't be 
reasonable about his hatreds and fears.  More than one kid of the 
current generation is possibly avoiding that fate.

-m