Did Snape give info about Sirius or not/ Cultural standards for Snape abusive o

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 144388

Jen:
> What I'd still like to know is how Snape passed off that comment 
> about helping dispose of Sirius when Nacissa was sitting right 
there-
> -didn't Dumbledore say Kreacher passed the information about 
Sirius 
> to Narcissa? Maybe this was figured out right after the release 
and 
> I missed it, but it seems incongruous.
> 


Alla:

But see, I don't understand how is it a contradiction. Yes, kreacher 
passed information to Malfoys. Narcissa obviously knows it, but 
maybe Snape came to Malfoys first with the same information and 
Narcissa knows it too or maybe Snape went to both Malfoys and 
Voldemort and told them which person should be used to lure Harry in 
MoM.





Shaun:

<HUGE SNIP>
Judging Hogwarts (and judging Snape) on the basis of his 
interactions 
> with *one* student - to me, that is rather ridiculous. Because 
I'll 
> tell you this - I would say that every teacher on this planet has 
the 
> occasional student for whom their normal methods just don't work. 
I 
> would hope that at least sometimes such a teacher would normally 
> realise this and that there's a need to try something different in 
> such cases - but condemning a teacher because they can't do that, 
> goes too far in my view - and condemning the style of teaching 
> altogether really goes too far. I think it is reasonable to hope 
that 
> a teacher knows enough to alter their methods for a specific child 
in 
> specific cases where they are not working, but that's quite a bit 
> different from expecting them to alter their methods for *all* 
> children, based on that specific child.


Alla:

Shaun, welcome back. :-) I snipped a lot in your post, because I 
know your background, you know mine. For those who don't , I also 
have some knowledge of educational theories, although mostly 
theoretical one - I studied to be a teacher, did some work while I 
was a student , but never actually worked as a teacher. I ended up 
going to law school when I came to America instead. I also did some 
work with abuse survivors, but in domestic violence aspect.

I think we agreed in the past that Snape's treatment of Harry is 
reprehensible, right? I am sorry if I remember wrong. As far as I 
can remember you think that Snape's treatment of Harry is an 
exception, not a rule and in general he is a good teacher, right?

Well, I think I argued this point too - it is absolutely POSSIBLE 
that to some kids Snape is a good teacher. I would argue that if 
they do exist, they are all in Slytherin House, but maybe some 
Gryffindor whom we did not see yet think that Snape is a good 
teacher. It is possible of course, I don't dispute that.

My point is that for six books we only saw Snape interacting with 
Gryffindors whom he IMO treats horribly. Based on that I conclude 
that Snape is a bad teacher.

But I think that you in the past also analyzed Snape interactions 
with Neville and concluded that they were OK for you, right? So, I 
am guessing that you don't agree that Snape mistreats Neville.

So, I am assuming that we only agree that Snape mistreats Harry. I 
am sorry, Shaun, please correct me if any of my assumptions are 
incorrect. It IS hard not to make assumptions when we debated a lot 
in the past; on the other hand there is a danger that I misinterpret 
your views, so again pleas correct me if I am wrong.

So, you are saying that Snape cannot be judged as a teacher just 
because his methods do not work for ONE student. Assuming for the 
sake of argument that indeed Harry is the only student whom Snape 
treats badly (and I do NOT agree with that. I think he treats 
Hermione and Neville just as badly, but for different reasons), I 
still think that sometimes teacher CAN be judged as bad teacher or 
what is more importantly as bad person based on his interactions 
with one student.

And yes, I think his interactions with Harry pass the muster (my 
muster as a reader of course, nobody else's) which would judge Snape 
as that horrible.

He brought personal interactions in the classroom. He deemed it 
acceptable to judge the student whom he did not know AT ALL before 
he even saw him based on who his parents were, not even based on 
what who this student was and we do have Dumbledore's word that 
Snape sees James in Harry, no?

I think it is persecution, personally and based on the analogies I 
make to RW, yes, I would say Snape may have to go based on only how 
he treats Harry. IMO of course.

Now, in general I would agree with you IF in RW teacher has a 
problem with one student, teacher may still be a good one for many 
students as I think Snape very well could be or not. I don't know, 
because I did not see it.

Sure, we see Umbridge calling class advanced, but really how much 
weight do we give Umbridge words?

If we were to judge Hogwarts as completely real school, I would say 
that the ideal solution would be for Dumbledore to hire another 
Potion master, which as we saw in book 6, he finally did to teach 
the students who do not work with Snape well, but again we would of 
course had no story if that would have happened earlier.
> > Alla:
> > 
> > That is why I feel very comfortable judging Snape by my " muggle"
> > standards. I believe that this is what JKR does despite placing 
him in
> > the world with magic, you know. :-) I think that her position in 
the
> > interviews support it too.

Shaun: 
> I don't see any reason to disagree with you on this - but I would 
> point out that if you are right, it is important to realise that 
your 
> "muggle" standards may not match JKRs.

Alla:

Absolutely, they may not, BUT my point is that so far the way I 
read  the books, they pretty much are. I could be wrong of course 
and it will turn out at the end that JKR really thinks 
that "pureblood" philosophy of the Slytherin house is perfectly OK 
or House Elves were created to serve Wizards and witches and naive 
Hermione should realise that she really should not judge  the other 
culture by "our standards" and that is PERFECTLY valid POV. But 
right now, I think that JKR absolutely not against passing judgment 
on other culture. Why? Because as we seem to agree she is not really 
writing about another culture, IMO, but about reflection of our 
culture in sometimes satirical , sometimes positive way plus the use 
of magic. And the kind of judgments she seems to impose on her 
characters is so far EXACTLY ( or very close to how I judge them)

She can pull the rug at the end of book 7 and Snape's character may 
turn out to be very different from what I think about him, but right 
now I am not convinced that she will do so. So far it seems to me 
that JKR and myself are on the same page where Snape is concerned. 
It could all change at  the end of course.

P.S. Last but not the least, I am not sure why you were trying to 
explain that you are moral person :-)

I had no doubts  of that fact, EVER. It is not like anybody in their 
right mind would judge a real person based on which fictional 
characters that person likes or dislikes. Just wanted to make 
sure. :-)


JMO,

Alla


> Magpie:
> 
> Well, exactly--boo-hoo!  If it's boo-hoo for Snape then it's boo-
hoo 
> for everyone else.  At 38 Snape is no longer the little child 
crying 
> in the corner, and Harry and Neville at 17 are not little boys of 
> 11.  

Alla:
Huh? What does the argument that Snape being damaged does not excuse 
him for his actions has to do with the fact that Harry and Neville 
will indeed be seventeen? It is not like he started mistreating them 
when they are seventeen. Snape started in the position of enormous 
inequality, when he had all the power in his interactions by the 
virtue of him being the teacher and Harry and Neville had very 
little power or none.

Harry and Neville are indeed not the little boys of eleven anymore, 
but I happen to think that at the end Snape will pay for what he did 
to them WHEN they were little boys of eleven or earlier. IMO of 
course.

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
> I don't think it is okay that Snape hates people, I simply 
question whether
> it is something that Snape can fix. By no means does that mean 
that it
> is then Harry's fault that Snape hates him. But the question of 
who is to
> blame is, for me, separate from the question of who needs to do 
what.
> I mean, it would be nice if we could keep earthquakes from 
happening,
> but is the earthquake to blame if you haven't fortified your
> house?

Alla:

But Snape is not an earthquake, Pippin , he does not HAVE TO happen. 
He CHOOSES to do what he does to Harry and Neville IMO and as 
Dumbledore says his choices show what we are.

If you are arguing that Snape in effect cannot help himself, aren't 
you also arguing that he cannot be stopped? Doesn't it also mean 
that he can continue do whatever he wants to? I mean, luckily he is 
not in Hogwarts anymore, but suppose that he would? He cannot help 
himself , so let him continue terrorizing students? I mean I 
understand that you are saying that it is not OK that Snape hates 
people, but do you think something should be done about it?

Besides Harry saying I forgive you, is there anything SNAPE should 
done to atone for his misdeeds in your opinion? I mean, we do agree 
that Snape did many bad things, right? Is there ANY kind of 
responsibility that Snape should take on his shoulders? Or do you 
think that everything should be up to Harry and Neville?


Pippin:
<SNIP>
 I don't think it wrong for seventeen years old
> Harry to heal fortyish Snape, any more than it is wrong for a young
> doctor in our society to have an older patient. 

Alla:

I don't have a problem with healing Snape per se, but am hoping that 
JKR will make him pay first or at least ASK for Harry to forgive 
him. I also don't want to see Harry behave as Saint and to me 
forgiving Snape without any indication that Snape at least regrets 
his actions will amount to saintly behavior. :-)

Again, just me. I am sure JKR will be able to pull off any case 
scenario, just thinking that Snape will not go punishment free. Two 
or three words, Pippin is it REALLY that hard for Snape to say I am 
ashamed of what I did? Do you think he is really so not in control 
of his facilities that he cannot look Harry in the eyes and say " I 
am sorry". I think for all my dislike of him as "person", I have a 
higher opinion of his ability to change than you do :-).


> Pippin:
> Actually, I think  it was Remus who used the full body bind on 
Greyback 
> (we never find out who did)  and then smuggled him out of Hogwarts 
> with Harry's invisibility cloak. But we'll see. 
> 
> I think it's very telling that Remus cannot heal Ron's leg (PoA ch 
19), but Snape has
> healed Dumbledore and Draco.


Alla:

Just in case anybody did not understand and I am not referring to 
you, Pippin, I am sure you did know that :-) I was kidding. I do 
NOT, I repeat I do NOT believe that Remus had anything to do with 
Dumbledore's murder or Greyback going free, I don't even think canon 
is clear that Greyback got away and I think that we all saw who 
killed Dumbledore and his last and first name starts with letter "S".


JMO,

Alla, who recently bought another chocolate frog candy in the store  
and now is the owner of ..... Snape card. MAHAHAHA. I don't know why 
I was surprised. After all, I cannot stop posting about him, even if 
mainly in the bad way, so it is only fitting that I would get the 
card with dear Severus on it.