Snape & Dumbledore

[ornadv]

No: HPFGUIDX 144442

>"Hrishikesh"
>The way in which the killing curse was performed was also 
>speculating, as normally the victim just seems to limp off
>dead, but Dumbledore was blasted away. <snip> we all know that 
>Snape is very good at Non-Verbal Spells,
>so he must used some other incantation! And Dumbledore might
>have used a Non-Verbal Spell to free Harry of the Body Bind!

>During his funeral we do not get to see his body, only a
>package, which might be containing anything else too.

>Besides Dumbledore is always associated with a Phoenix so he
>might as well rise from his ashes!

> Bart:
> ...edited quoted text...
>
> I still maintain that Snape was keeping Dumbledore artificially
> alive, and his killing of Dumbledore was "pulling the plug".
>
> Bart

>bboyminn:
>I've had similar ideas, but I wouldn't phrase is as keeping 
>Dumbledore 'artificially' alive. That sounds a little too 
>Frankenstein to me.

>I suspect that the problem with Dumbledore's hand was spreading up 
>his arm and would indeed eventually be the death of him. <snip>
>So, I agree that Dumbledore was already dying, and would soon be 
>dead independent of what happened on the tower. Knowing this, it 
>did not take much for Snape to comprehend the situation on top of 
>the tower and understand what the shortest, safest, and most 
>productive way out was. So, he killed Dumbledore, but he killed an 
>already dying man.

>Snape choice the path of the greatest good to The Cause, even though
>that action would make him an unforgiven villain for all time in the
>wizard world. In an effort to bring down Voldemort, Snape has, as I
>have said so many times before, seal his own doom for all time.
<snip>

>I think Dumbledore knowing he was dying helps explain what was 
>surely reckless behavior in the Cave.
>So, while some people have made good arguments for Dumbledore to 
>have faked his death (and others made very bad arguments to the 
>same end), I'm afraid he is really and truly gone.
>Something I do not desire, but something that I accept.

Orna:
I would like to start from the end: I also believe DD to be really 
and truly dead – not necessarily really and truly gone, since his 
portrait has some ways of being there, and since those we are love 
are never really and truly gone :).

I believe him dead – otherwise I don't think his portrait would be 
in his study, Hagrid certainly recognizes him as dead, he is a lousy 
occlument, and wouldn't be able to fake grief and tears in the 
funeral.

But I still don't like this "killing a dying man" as an argument. I 
had some thoughts about it:
I agree that from the beginning of HBP DD acts as if his death is 
naturally drawing nearer – he practically tells Harry in the cave, 
that his life is worthier than DD's, and he certainly acts in a 
reckless way, drinking a potion, which would at the best kill him – 
not immediately – but kill him. But I don't accept this hero-
suicidal DD. I find suicidal DD and Killing-dying Snape a horrible 
idea, and terribly unacceptable in both perspectives. 
I think DD thought that there was a chance to stay alive, if he 
could only see Snape soon enough – that's what he is urging Harry to 
do. Still, for the time being – he is a dying man.
Now to the scene in the tower:
I had two scenarios:
1) DD was dying. He "discussed" the situation legilimancy-occlumency 
like with Snape on the spot. Since he thought Snape's and Harry's 
life were the important lives to the cause – he submitted himself to 
death, like some ancient tribes do when the time has come. He 
couldn't be rescued in the situation without killing Snape because 
of the UV. He was nearly dying, that's a place, where as Ron said – 
you must do sacrifices, that's the game. And he was dying – he just 
had to stop fighting death, in order to go away. Snape did his 
curse, for the DE's reason, and thereby made himself look as the 
unforgivable villain in the WW. (there might be some argument, that 
since we don't hear the rushing sound, it wasn't a "true" AK, but 
some nonverbal spell' like throwing him off tower- being cast before 
it, but it doesn't matter in this scenario. And I have some doubts 
if the DE wouldn't recognize a fake AK – having cast numbers of it 
themselves for some time) Snape would hate it, and loosing the only 
person in the world who really trusted him in such a way, would 
surely make him loose his temper when Harry accuses him of killing 
DD in a cowardly way. 
I think that would explain DD's way of being raised in the air 
stopped in midair – he was already dead.  
How on earth is Snape going to be able to convince Harry and us that 
it happened like this- that's another story.
2) I don't believe in this scenario, but I want to play with it: DD 
said that Voldemort wouldn't like to kill the person who got to the 
horcrux right away – he would like to question him. Now, how would 
Voldemort do it? He would have to out some curse in the potion, or 
somewhere in the cave, which would transport the person to him. It 
would be an advantage for Voldemort, if the person would be brought 
to him wandless – saving a battle with a potentially powerful 
wizard, even if he is weakened by the potion. Perhaps it was going 
like this: the person has to be out of the cave - I think there was 
some spell preventing apparition or other means of magical movement 
in the cave. Then, when for some reason or other – he is wandless - 
the potion transports the person to Voldemort for "questioning" the 
minute any other spell hits him. It was very probable the wizard 
would be encountering spells quite soon – since he would have to 
seek someone for help. And most probably put his wand away, for the 
healing attempt. That's when he would find himself rushing towards 
Voldemort, who would do the actual killing, sending the corpse back 
to where it came from. After all, it took some time, until Harry 
went back to DD's corpse.
It's very far-fetched, and I certainly wouldn't like to give 
Voldemort the satisfaction of killing DD, but I thought it was worth 
mentioning.
Anyway, that doesn't help Snape a lot, since he would be casting the 
AK, so – this way or the other, I feel it is essential for Snape to 
have cast some nonverbal spell. It would be in line with the HBP 
putting such a weight on those spells. 


>Steve
>I don't believe that Snape and Dumbledore had any kind of grand
>'conspiracy' planned out. I don't believe that Snape and Dumbledore
>consciously planned in advance for Dumbledore's' death. But I do 
>think they had a general understanding that there were higher 
>priorities than Dumbledore's life. That Snape shouldn't act the 
>hero and try to save Dumbledore at all cost, because as it turned 
>out, the cost of trying to save Dumbledore on the top of the tower 
>would have been unbelievably high, and it would have certainly 
>failed.

Orna:
I agree, and much as I don't like it, it seems to have been like 
that – in the most Snape-supporting theories. 
The fact stays, that even in the most benignant theory for Snape, 
Snape didn't attempt anything to save DD – but under the 
circumstances of DD's stand against Voldemort, and his willingness 
to sacrifice himself – that would be forgivable. 

Something to do with poetical balance – it might be said that Harry 
and Snape killed DD jointed – under his own orders or general 
understanding.  That's were I come back to Steve's theory – perhaps 
you are right in a way. 

But I feel very bad about it. Hmm. But basically war is a situation 
where people are faced with impossible situations, making them 
feeling bad about whichever way they choose. Doesn't mean "anything 
goes", but the situation at the tower does basically fit into my 
definition of a basically unsolvable situation for a DDM!Snape.

Orna