JKR and the Problem or Three (was Re: Cultural standards ...)

[ornadv]

No: HPFGUIDX 144470

>Betsy Hp:
>Snape is *already being punished*. His goal is to destroy
>Voldemort, and he's managed to alienate the one person chosen by
>frigging *destiny* of all things to be Voldemort's doom. Now
>*that's* tragady. All the other "punish Snape" ideas have been mere
>child's play in comparison.

Orna:

I agree with you. That, and loosing in this tragic (for him, if he 
is DDM!) way the one and only person in the WW, who really trusted 
him, seems a very severe punishment, which IMO is directly (and 
Karmatic, if you like it) connected to his personal characteristics 
as a "not to friendly person".  He doesn't get appreciation from the 
members of the order, certainly not anything like love. Even DD 
never seems to love him as a person, he sees him as a person not 
outgrowing his childish grievances, and sometimes even mocks him. I 
think part of Snape's hatred towards Harry has to do, that he earns 
DD's love effortless, while Snape never comes near to such a feeling 
from DD, in spite of his magical knowledge, in spite of his help for 
the order. Perhaps Snape, unlike Voldemort, has left in himself some 
undamaged craving for love and appreciation, but absolutely no inner 
knowledge of how this comes to happen. Even Draco treats him without 
respect, without any trust towards him. Yes, it does seem quite a 
karmatic punishment, even as things stand now.
The only person who seems to have (had, one might add) some genuine 
positive feeling towards him – something between appreciation and 
compassion – is Lupin. And from now on, he hasn't got a chance of 
being something else than one of the greatest villains of all times, 
in the eyes of the order and the WW.
Quite a punishment – and if he is DDM!Snape it means he hasn't got 
the compensation for it – like belonging to the bad guys, rejoicing 
on DD's death.  

>Betsy Hp in 144301:
>Anyway, I have a feeling that dealing with the bed he's made is
>Snape's ultimate task. Earning Harry's trust may be the only way
>for him to achieve true redemption, and probably the only way for
>Harry to defeat Voldemort.

Orna:
I don't think that Snape alive will earn anything like that. I 
think, he will help Harry defeat Voldemort, but in his secretive 
way, thus never earning the respect he should get. I think that 
maybe after his death, Harry may be able to understand something 
there. I'm not sure, but I really can't see Snape and Harry being 
able to have any conversation without bursting into waves of hate, 
mistrust and more misunderstanding. 

>Lupinlore:
>That would be one easy way of dealing with it, I suppose. But that
>sets up the problem of how you deal with a Dead but Unrepentant!
>Snape, which in some ways is a much thornier question than how to
>deal with a Snape who is alive and still has possibilities for
>reconciliation. I understand that you feel this may be a challenge
>JKR intends for her readers, but I just don't see it coming down to
>that. Frankly, I just don't think JKR is that crafty or subtle.
>She has a definite preference for polishing things off pretty neatly
>where major characters are concerned

Orna:
You may be right. If she wants to pull it pretty neatly and without 
subtlety and complications – than ESE!Snape is one way of doing it. 
Another way is having Snape win Harry's trust while alive and acting 
out there – looks difficult for me, but perhaps not to JKR.
 But if not – Harry will have to live with a dead, but unrepentant 
Snape (unrepentant on the personal issues, not on whose side he is 
in the war), and with himself having mistrusted Snape not because of 
correctly reading Snape's "dark loyalties" but because of Harry's 
personal hatred. Not an easy thing, but basically a task having to 
do with turning adult, IMO. Of course, I assume Snape will get 
killed by the Dark side, and not by Harry.   


>Betsy Hp:
>Speaking as someone who *does* fancy Snape... um, yeah, as a,
>uh, ...friend. Yes. <shifty eyes>

Orna, quite close to invite Snape one of those days
if only he was a 
bit more approachable.