Snape and Saruman was JKR Preaching?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 144687

Ceridwen wrote:
> I don't think it's possible to compare everything about Saruman and 
> Snape.  I do see where their positions are about the same in the 
> overall set-up of the stories.  Saruman and Snape are both 
> the `middle evil' - with Gollum and Draco as the `least evil' and 
> Sauron and LV as the `greatest evil'.  At least, according to the 
> hero's perspective.  But within the seperate series of books, they 
> have very different substories.
> 
> Saruman was the trusted mentor, the White Wizard.  He is Gandalf's 
> superior, not his subordinate, as Snape is Dumbledore's subordinate.  
> Saruman begins as someone to be trusted.  No one warns Gandalf about 
> going to see Saruman.  No one questions why Gandalf trusts him.
> 
> So this way, I think, Snape and Saruman begin their respective series 
> as direct opposites, even if they're holding the same position.  No 
> one, not even students who are not a part of either VoldWar, like or 
> trust Snape.  While, everyone seems to take Gandalf's assessment of 
> Saruman at face value.
> 
> I do think they're occupying the same sort of place in their 
> respective stories.  But the stories themselves are different.
<snip>
> 
> In the early discussions about Snape after HBP, we all debated 
> whether he was ESE! or ESG!  Which didn't make much sense.  DDM!, 
> though, sounded right.  I do think Snape is totally against 
> Voldemort.  But, I think he puts his trust in Dumbledore instead of 
> in Harry or the Ministry or the Order.  If DDM! turns out to be 
> right, then Snape can't see Dumbledore in the same way as Saruman 
> sees Gandalf.  He may disagree, that's his right.  But I don't see 
> him having that sneering sort of contempt toward Dumbledore at all.

<snip>
> 2) We see Saruman's betrayal over and over, as he depletes the 
> forests to forge his Uruk Hai army, and as Pippin and Merry discover 
> the goods from the Shire.  We see Saruman communing with Sauron 
> through the Palantir (sp?).  We see his changed personna, we never 
> saw him as what he had been before, when he was elevated to the 
> leadership of his Order.  Snape, on the other hand, is never shown 
> with LV.  Not that I recall, anyway.  Maybe a scene like that would 
> be too telling.  Or, maybe I'm discounting something we have seen in 
> canon by thinking I read it in a fanfic.  We see Snape as someone 
> Harry mistrusts from the beginning when he thought it was Snape who 
> made his scar hurt.  We have half-heard conversations which turn out 
> to be much different than we thought.  We have outright acts of 
> rescue, possible acts of rescue, and a somewhat sympathetic
backstory for Snape.

Carol notes:
I agree with your basic position, which is that the stories of Snape
and Saruman, and the handling of the characters, is different. I'm not
sure that I agree with your position that they represent "Middle
Evil," since Saruman's evil is "middling" only in comparison with
Sauron's, which is epic. Setting aside the essential difference that
Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf are all originally Maia (demigods or
angels) whereas Voldemort, Snape, and Dumbledore are human beings with
magical powers and consequently the scale of murder and warfare and
domination is much smaller (and many millennia shorter) in the HP
books than LOTR, Saruman's role is simply not comparable to Snape's
(or vice versa).

Saruman, as Ceridwen points out, started out as great and good, the
head of the White Council and Gandalf's superior. He "studied too
deeply the arts of the enemy" and was seduced into the desire to
become a Dark Lord himself. He makes a ring of his own (whether it
aids him in controlling his minions is unclear, but clearly that's his
intention). He openly serves Sauron, creating armies for him, but
secretly wants to rival him, to seize the One Ring for himself and
rule the world. He creates a whole army by "blending the races of Orcs
and men," an abomination in Tolkien's view (please, let's not get into
questions of whether Tolkien was "racist"!). The whole purpose of the
Uruk-hai is to destroy the Race of Men; they are bred to hate and
kill. He corrupts some of the weaker Hobbits (notably Lotho
Sackville-Baggins) to ensure a supply of food for his men (and tobacco
for himself) and promises to reward his Uruk-hai with "manflesh." He
also takes Orcs and Wargs and other creatures into his service. He
also corrupts Grima Wormtongue, using him to sap the mind and powers
of the king of Rohan and to set the king's servants against each
other. He stirs up old grudges (Dunlendings against the Rohirrim),
encouraging the Dunlendings to take revenge by setting fire to
villages. He orders his Uruk-hai to kidnap the Halflings (Merry and
Pippin), intending to torture them into giving him information on the
Ring if they don't have it themselves. He chops down forests to feed
his mills and produce engines of war, allowing his Orcs to wantonly
destroy the trees. And then, of course, he attacks Rohan with the
intention of killing every man, woman, and child--supposedly in the
service of Sauron but really in the hope of supplanting him.

What has Snape done? He has reported a Prophecy to Voldemort, his
master at the time, without knowing who it involved or how Voldemort
reacted to it. He either repented or pretended to repent and spied for
*Dumbledore* "at great personal risk." He has taught Potions (or DADA)
and served as HoH for Slytherin for sixteen years, using occasionally
questionable methods and showing favoritism for his own House, but has
also taught some important lessons (bezoars, Expelliarmus, the nature
and uses of Occlumency, nonverbal spells) and tried to watch over
Harry, saving his life at least once (and also saving Dumbledore's in
his last year). There is, of course, the whole question of HBP, but
*at worst*, Snape has given information to Voldemort relating to
Emmeline Vance and Sirius Black; taken an Unbreakable Vow to help and
protect Draco and perform an unnamed deed; *possibly* concealed all or
part of this vow from Dumbledore (though the evidence suggests that DD
knew at least the first two provisions); and, when the choice was
between his own life and Dumbledore's, killed Dumbledore. Call that
last action murder or treachery if you will. Eliminate all possible
extenuating circumstances, including DD's own desires in the matter.
Ignore Snape's actions in saving Draco and getting the DEs out of
Hogwarts and rescuing Harry from a Crucio. 

At worst we have 1) indirect involvement in the Potters' deaths (and
those of Sirius Black and Emmeline Vance) 2) Feigned remorse and
feigned loyalty to Dumbledore 3) Minor psychological "abuse" of a few
students and favoritism of his own house 4) Lies and concealment 5)
One real murder. (And, of course, if he's DDM!Snape, the picture is
considerably less Black. Erm, black.)

Even viewed from the worst possible perspective (as guilty of one
murder, accessory to four, and traitor to his mentor), Snape has
created no armies of bloodthirsty creatures; has ordered no murders or
kidnappings that we know of (in contrast to both Saruman and
Voldemort); has created no Rings of Power (or Horcruxes); has enslaved
no evil creatures and ordered them to chop down forests and burn down
villages. He has not even corrupted any minions (he's trying to
*prevent* Draco from killing DD and he's teaching his students
*Defense Against* the Dark Arts. Even if Snape is loyal to Voldemort,
(which to me seems patently absurd), there's no evidence whatever that
he wants to become a Dark Lord himself.

In other words, the analogy with Saruman just doesn't hold up. We know
from early on in LOTR where Saruman's loyalties lie. There's no
question that he has fallen, and his power and greatness diminish
along with his goodness until he becomes a wreck of his former self.
Nothing could be more different than the condition of Severus Snape,
who begins his school life as something of a pitiable outcast
(accepted only by a gang of apparently older Slytherins and to some
degree by his HOH); who joined the Death Eaters, quite possibly in
hopes of recognition and reward for his talents; who (apparently)
rejected the DEs and secretly joined Dumbledore, risking his life (as
Saruman never did) to spy on Voldemort; who served as DD's righthand
man throughout the HP books (despite Harry's antipathy toward him);
who showed Fudge his Dark Mark as proof that Voldemort was back; who
returned to Voldemort at DD's request as part of a prearranged plan
("If you are ready; if you are prepared"), again at great personal
risk; who now informs Bellatrix that his true loyalty is to Voldemort
and yet could well be lying to her and to Voldemort, using his skills
as a superb Occlumens to fool them; who finally, it seems, is caught
in his own web of lies to one side or the other and is forced to kill
his own mentor--very unlike anything that happens to Saruman.

I really see only the most superficial similarities between Snape and
Saruman. The analogy falls apart on a closer examination. Even if we
consider Snape as fallen, he does not fall from greatness and goodness
into unspeakable evil; only from loyalty to the mentor who rescued him
from Azkaban into the wrong choice of saving his own skin rather than
dying with Dumbledore. (That is not, of course, how I see it; I think
he made the only possible choice at the cost of his job, his freedom,
his self-respect, and perhaps his soul.) Saruman is faced with no such
choice. The moment he made his own ring and set himself up to become a
Dark Lord, he engineered his own fall. Snape remains an ambiguous
figure, at least until Book 7 reveals his fate and (I hope) sheds some
light on his motivations. There is nothing ambiguous or mysterious
about Saruman, and there is nothing in his history to make us pity him
except his own fall from wisdom. Snape is a much more human figure for
whom Harry, if he can get past his anger and hatred, can learn to feel
empathy and compassion. And that, IMO, he *must* do if his soul is to
remain pure and whole.

Carol, wondering if JKR is ever going to update her website and
missing last year's Christmas decorations and Advent calendar