[HPforGrownups] PRe: Cultural standards, nasty teachers, abused children/ JKR quote new for me

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 144768

On 15 Dec 2005 at 2:53, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Shaun:
> 
> <SNIP>
> > And a couple - and only a couple - of my good teachers were very
> > Snape like indeed. And to see people labelling them child abusers 
> by 
> > proxy - well, it hurts. Especially as, believe me, I do know what
> > child abuse by an educator can be like.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Erm... NO, Shaun, I don't label any real teachers  whom I don't know
> as child abusers. Snape on the other hand - yes, absolutely, I do. 

Shaun:

I fully accept that there is obviously a difference in your view 
between describing Snape as a child abuser, and expanding that 
description to real life teachers who you don't know. That's fair 
enough. But even accepting completely that you see a real and valid 
difference, I still think the way *I* see it, is quite relevant to 
why *I* keep defending the man.  

To me, if you describe the behaviours that Snape exhibits as 
behaviours of a child abuser, it would seem to me that you are 
necessarily describing teachers who exhibit the same behaviours as 
child abusers.

If the behaviours that make them an abuser or not.

Now I fully accept that there is obviously a difference in your view 
between describing Snape as a child abuser, and expanding that 
description to real life teachers who you don't know. That's fair 
enough. But even accepting completely that you see a real and valid 
difference, I still think the way I see it, is quite relevant to why 
I keep defending the man.

> Shaun:
> > But - like I say, I believe people have a right to their opinions -
> > and that's all I am expressing here is mine. What worries me a bit
> > though is the idea that somehow JKR is failing in some duty if she
> > doesn't first of all agree with the opinions of some people on 
> > what is and isn't child abuse, but secondly and more importantly, 
> > doesn't 
> > somehow deal with this in the text.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, and I am expressing mine. I said many times -  the fact that I
> would be emotionally satisfied with Snape  being punished does NOT
> equal " JKR has any kind of duty to address it in the text" BUT I also
> said several times that I SEE it as future plot development, I brought
> canon examples which showed that people who behaved badly caught up
> with their karma. I asked you earlier, but I just want to be sure you
> DO agree that Snape behaves badly towards Harry, right? Because if you
> don't then of course you would not buy that Snape's karma will catch
> up with him.

Shaun:

Oh, yes, I believe that Snape behaves totally inappropriately towards 
Harry in quite a number of incidents. I also believe he behaves 
inappropriately towards Hermione in at least one major incident - and 
when it comes to Neville, well, I'm not sure Snape behaves 
inappropriately (by my definitions) towards Neville, but I do think 
his approach is likely to be counterproductive when it comes to 
Neville.

And, for the record, I am not saying that every defender of the Snape 
as child abuser hypothesis thinks JKR has a duty to address their 
concerns, and I do fully understand that there's a lot of difference 
between *hoping* she does, or feeling it would be nice if she does, 
and *expecting* her to. But I do think there are some people who do 
expect it - they don't just hope it happens, they think that it must. 
That's fair enough - as I say they are entitled to their opinion and 
it's every bit as valid as my own - but I think there is a 
difference.

> Alla: 
>
> I am pretty sure that such thing will happen to Snape based on how I
> read the books that is again does not me an " JKR has to", I just
> think she will. IMO of course.

Shaun:

Yes, and given views JKR has expressed about Snape herself, I 
wouldn't be at all surprised if you are right.

> Shaun:
> <SNIP>
>  And I think it would be utterly absurd 
> > of me to expect her to worry about the issue I have raised in 
> writing 
> > her story.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That I don't get. Why would it be absurd of you as a reader to wish
> that the certain issue to be addressed? It is not like you can force
> JKR to address it or not , it just means IMO that you are deeply
> involved in the story and would like those issues  to be addressed,
> like making a wish and see whether it comes true or not. Just part of
> the fun to me anyways.

Shaun: 

It's the difference between *expecting* which is what I said and 
*wishing* which is the word you've used. I don't think it is absurd 
for a reader to wish or hope for a particular plotline in a book. 
There's things I would definitely like to see. But some people go a 
lot further than that - expressing a view that to me seems more like 
"JKR will have done something wrong if this doesn't happen" as 
opposed to "JKR will annoy me if this doesn't happen" or "JKR will 
please me if this does happen."
 
> Alla:
> 
> So, " bully, teacher, who abuses his power" are the names which we
> KNOW JKR calls Snape. I do not remember JKR calling Snape child
> abuser, although one day if I have enough free time, I may go through
> her interviews just to be sure, but in any event, to me bully ( and
> Snape bullies children) is very close to child abuser, teacher, who
> abuses his power IS very close to child abuser.

I agree entirely that JKR regards Severus Snape as a bad teacher, and 
that that is the way she is trying to write him - by giving him 
characteristics that she regards as indicative of a bad teacher, 
possibly based on her own experiences, possibly based on more than 
that.

I just don't think JKR is an unassailable authority on what a good 
and bad teacher is.

I've mentioned some of the characteristics of the teachers who abused 
me - and to most people those characteristics probably sound very 
nice. And I know people who regard them as some of the best teachers 
they had.

But they harmed me. Severely. Even with help it took me a decade to 
fully recover from what they did to me in a single year.

Now, they did abuse me - there's no doubt about that in my mind. But 
even so, I wouldn't call them child abusers. Not when I consider the 
good they did for other kids.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia