Peter's basic nature v Snape basic nature/ Which one is worse? Pure speculat

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 144999

SSSusan earlier:
> > Peter GAVE the information and we've seen no indication that he 
> > regretted having done so. (I do NOT buy his line in the Shrieking 
> > Shack as true remorse for one minute -- he was trapped and 
> > desperate he knew it. If he had really had regretted it, would he 
> > have concocted the "kill a dozen Muggles and frame Sirius" plan?)

Pippin:
> We don't know that Peter was the spy, or that he killed Cedric, or 
> that he was responsible for the Muggle deaths. It is not beyond the 
> wiles of Voldemort or JKR to make him look more guilty than he is.

SSSusan:
Um... well, you can say we don't know that if you like, but I don't 
see any reason to doubt it.  When confronted in the Shrieking Shack, 
Peter – who's clearly PETER there, no? having transformed from 
Scabbers in front of them all? – does not deny that he was the 
traitor.  He merely makes excuses for why he was.  

 
Pippin:
> In order to kill Cedric, Peter would have had to put the bundle
> aside, (it wouldn't do to AK Voldie) aim his wand, and say the 
> words, all while Cedric, who was young, alert and a tri-wizard 
> champion with his wand ready, just stood there. 

SSSusan:
I don't see this at all.  Why can't a wizard perform a spell with one 
hand while holding a bundle in the other arm?  HOW would he 
have "slipped" and AKed Voldy while aiming his wand across at someone 
else?  

Or even if he needed to set the bundle aside, I don't think it'd be a 
problem.  How long does it take to set something down, turn & 
speak, "Avada Kedavra"?  Cedric may have been young and alert, but he 
was also likely VERY confused about where he was and what was going 
on.  Why the hell would he be prepared for someone to AK him?  
And "Kill the spare" might have meant something to *Harry,* who knew 
he was Voldy's target, but why would it have meant anything to 
Cedric, in terms of thinking to himself, "Oh, that must mean me. I'd 
better watch out"?

No, of course it's not impossible that there was someone else there, 
but I have never seen any, any evidence that was convincing to me of 
a "Wormtail2."  


Pippin:
> Doesn't it make sense to assume there was someone else at the 
> graveyard, someone who was making sure that Wormtail did as he was 
> told, a person who used Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric as soon as 
> the order was given?

SSSusan:
Nope, sorry, not to me. :-)


Pippin:
> Could this person have killed the Muggles? Could he have
> been the one who spied on the Order for a year before the
> Potter's deaths? Could he have discovered that Peter was the
> secret keeper and betrayed him? Could Peter have been
> memory charmed and forced to believe that he was the
> spy and *did* reveal himself to Voldemort of his own free
> will? Indeed.

SSSusan:
As you know, I'm one of the ones who believes that *something* 
happened on the tower – that Snape is, indeed, DDM! and that what 
happened there was either Snape "doing the deed" without its being 
the deed (e.g., the nonverbal spell vs. verbal incantation 
possibility) or -- more likely in my view -- Snape actually doing the 
deed but NOT with the motivation of cold-blooded murder one would 
expect (rather, following orders, for instance).  

IOW, I think motivation could be hidden, but I would not argue that 
it wasn't actually Snape – that there was someone hiding in the 
shadows.  I'm also reluctant to go with that possibility of a "hidden 
in the shadows" character with the Muggle-killing scene and the 
killing-Cedric scene, and for Voldy's spy.  IOW, with Snape, one can 
argue the possibility of DDM! without having to insert a hidden 
person on the scene; to believe in two Wormtails, you do have to 
believe a hidden person.  I don't care for it myself.

 

Siriusly Snapey Susan earlier:
> >YES, Wormtail was probably scared someone *would* help Voldy and 
> > that Voldy would hunt him down & kill him eventually, but if he'd 
> > thought about that logically, what would the odds of that have 
> > been? He was the ONLY loyal party, helping Voldy to come back! 

Orna:
> He was not the only loyal party at this point – there was Crouch Jr.
> with a nasty dislike towards DE who went free, and a very light hand
> on his AK-Wand. (Not that it makes his murdering Cedric less cold-
> blooded IMO, but just for the record)

SSSusan:
Now *that's* an excellent point, and I stand properly corrected.  So 
BCJ was out there, Peter knew that, and he might have been frightened 
into cooperating because of that knowledge.  So that might make his 
GoF graveyard decisions more understandable, but I still wonder about 
the initial decision to reveal Lily & James' whereabouts, the 
decision to go to Albania in search of Voldy, and all of that.


> >Siriusly Snapey Susan, anxiously awaiting someone's reminding me of
> >the canon re: Pettigrew going to Voldy or Voldy coming to him....

Orna:
> Here it is, IMO, in PoA:
> "DON'T LIE!" bellowed Black, "YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO HIM
> FOR A YEAR BEFORE LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY"
> "He-he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh-what was
> there to be gained by refusing him?" "What was there to be gained by
> fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?" said Black,
> <snip> "You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew. "He would have
> killed me, Sirius!"

SSSusan:
Thanks much for the quick response with canon.  `Tis what I needed 
since I'm not at home with my books. :-)  

Orna, continuing to discuss said canon:
> Wormtail talks as if there was some invitation on Voldemort's or
> DE's part. But it's clear that Wormtail didn't hesitate too much, or
> ask advice of his friends about what to do about it. OTOH Wormtail
> being that ratty thing he is, it might be that when he
> says "refusing him" he is speaking metaphorically – just saying he
> couldn't refuse the lure of power and fear, since the dark side got
> stronger, and what was the point refusing it, so he decided to join
> him.  Unfortunately Sirius is too enraged to inquire about what 
> invitation Wormtail got. I think, if Voldemort or one of his DE had 
> forced him personally to join, he would have said so more 
> specifically.


SSSusan:
I tend to agree with you that, from what *Peter* says here, Voldy 
approached him.  You're right also, though, that Peter didn't argue 
about Imperius or torture or anything else forceful, beyond his fear 
of Voldy.  Again, I'm NOT saying it's incomprehensible how someone 
could have caved in the face of such fear; I'm just saying that it 
was a choice, it was his decision, and we didn't see REMORSE over 
it.  What we did see was an elaborate scheme, after GH, to frame his 
*friend* and in this situation innocent party, Sirius, and which 
included a willingness to consider a dozen muggles as expendable.  
THAT'S reprehensible, imo, and goes beyond a person's making an ill-
advised confession under threat or out of fear.


Orna:
> IMO he saw the dark side was getting stronger, his friends weren't
> a safe place, and in some mixture of being afraid he might be killed
> for being on the order's side plus feeling attracted to the
> strongest bully on the field – he joined Voldemort. I don't see him
> having any real loyalty, or making positive choices – the most
> striking characteristic of him – is that he is choosing negatively –
> where the butter seems to be laid, and from which danger he wants to
> escape – in fact basically cowardly choices. 

SSSusan:
Absolutely.  That's my position as well.  "Choosing negatively" is an 
excellent way of phrasing it. 


Orna:
> I also liked Sydney's suggestion that his aid to Voldemort's 
> downfall  won't be by some courageous conscious help, but more by 
> some blunder – magic at his deepest <g>.

SSSusan:
Which, imo, removes this as a scenario for REDEMPTION of Peter.  One 
does not blunder into redemption; one must make a conscious choice 
for it.  Now, I think Peter had his closest moment when he suggested 
to Voldy that another's blood would do – that it perhaps didn't need 
to be Harry's, but when Voldy insisted, the moment passed, and that 
was that.  For it to be true redemption in my book, it would need to 
be another moment like that, when Peter *elects* to do something to 
assist in Voldy's downfall.

Siriusly Snapey Susan, who rather obviously really can't stand Peter 
Pettigrew/Wormtail