TBAY: Definitely NOT a Snape Theory (long)

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 145094

> Miles:
> You are frowsy at this central point of your... your... THEORY, but
I don't
> think you should be. We simply don't know whether Snape came back
because it
> was the Potter's LV tried to find. This is pure SPECULATION. It as well
> would fit into the information from canon, that Snape came back when he
> realised that LV would try to kill a baby because of the prophecy. 


"Well, it seems Miles had just caught you with capital SPECULATION",
Neri smirked at Faith.

"Really?" answered Faith coolly. "Did you check the canon?"

Neri waved a wand at the wall of the Royal George and words appeared:

*******************************************************
HBP. Ch. 25:
'Please let me finish.' Dumbledore waited until Harry had nodded
curtly, then went on. 'Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was
still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half
of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his
master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But
he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy
Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would
destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew,
that they were your mother and father -'   
********************************************************

"According to Dumbledore," said Faith, "what Snape didn't know was
*which* boy Voldemort would hunt, and that the parents would be people
that Snape *knew*.

"Er
 this wasn't very explicit, you know," remarked George. 

"Yeah, perhaps we should reduce the charge to non-capital
speculation?" suggested Neri. 

"I just believe what the canon says," said Faith innocently.

"Well," said Neri, "do you have any canon regarding this one:"

> Miles:
> Erm, obviously LV knew that the Potter's were warned. First, they lived
> under the protection of the Fidelius Charm, which is very unusual, and
> second James cried "He is coming" (quoted from memory) when he came into
> their house. So LV *knew* that the Potter's weren't surprised that
LV was
> after them. 

Faith shrugged. "The Potters had narrowly escaped Voldemort three
times before that. This *is* canon. He should hardly be surprised that
they were putting some effort into hiding from him. The point is that
Voldemort obviously had never suspected Snape. After all, Voldemort
did find the Potters, and when he was defeated it was by something
completely unexpected, not by an ambush of aurors waiting for him or
by some trap laid by Dumbledore. So Voldemort never had a reason to
suspect that Dumbledore and the Potters were warned in advance."   

> Miles:
> Dumbledore told Harry about the Life debt. Some other people knew of
it as
> well, e.g. Remus. But Dumbledore always refused to reveal his reason for
> trusting Snape to anyone (as far as we know). So, why tell everyone the
> reason and refuse to tell it the same time? I think LID!Snape stands
on feet
> of clay here *looking for a hammer*.
> 

> The Life Debt question is important for the story, I have no doubt.
We can
> explain a lot with it, and it is closely connected with the
> Marauder's-Snape-background underlying the whole story of Harry
Potter. And
> there will be several new parts of this story and this time in the final
> book. But LID!Snape as a master key for the character of Snape - no, not
> really.

"You know," said Neri to Faith. "This is perhaps the best argument
I've heard until now that the Life Debt *does* involve some very
specific terms. The other option would be that Snape never had a Life
Debt to James at all, and Miles too agrees this isn't likely. So it's
more likely that the Life Debt involves some specific terms that
Dumbledore couldn't tell anybody about, probably because they would
blow Snape's cover."

Faith shrugged again. "If you really must have these speculations, you
can manufacture them for any theory. DDM too requires an explanation
why Dumbledore refused to give his reasons to trust Snape. What's the
DDM explanation?
   
 
> Miles:
> As Jen pointed out, Snape paid the Life Debt back, in PS/SS, and in PoA.
> So..
 
"Funny," said Faith. "When Dumbledore had this little speech in SS/PS
about Snape's debt to James, did you get the impression he was saying
that Snape had paid his debt and this account is now settled?"

Neri took out a wand and waved it at the wall, where words appeared:

********************************************************
SS/PS Ch. 17:

"Quirrell said Snape –"

"Professor Snape, Harry."

"Yes, him – Quirrell said he hates me because he hated my father. Is
that true?"

"Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr.
Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive."

"What?"

"He saved his life."

"What?"

"Yes 
" said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds work,
isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt 

I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he
felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back
to hating your father's memory in peace 
"
 ********************************************************

"Well, Dumbledore doesn't actually say that the account was settled,"
said Neri.

"He doesn't say that it wasn't either," pointed out Jen.

"Lets not start again with that old argument, whether Snape really
saved Harry's life in that Quidditch game or not," said Neri. "It was
never decided and we're not likely to agree now."

"Well, for repaying a Life Debt, this case wasn't exactly what you'd
call clear-cut, was it?", said Faith. "I mean, from literary
considerations wouldn't you expect something more dramatic? And the
other cases of Snape saving Harry's life are even less clear-cut than
that."

"But whether they were enough to settle the account depends on the
exact terms of the Life Debt magic," argued Neri, "which *you* rather
not discuss."

"But I *do* discuss characters' opinions, if there's evidence for them
in canon," said Faith. "So tell me, what do you think is Snape's
opinion? Does he behave as if he thinks the account was settled after
that Quidditch match? Or after the end of the year? Or after the night
of the Shrieking Shack? Has he really `gone back to hate James' memory
in peace'? Was there any change in the way he treats Harry?"

Before anybody could answer, Pippin popped out of nowhere, slipping a
time turner
back into her cloak, "LID!Snape is far too weak dramatically to be
compelling," she said. "Robo!Snape, who only acts the way he does
because of magical compulsion? Puh-leeze."

"Did you find the Snape plot in SS/PS dramatically weak?" Faith asked
her. "You seem to agree that Snape was still Life InDebted to James at
that time".  

"And you know," added Neri thoughtfully, "perhaps the real reason
Snape was so angry in the Shack wasn't just that he'd lose his `sweet
revenge' if Sirius and Lupin would turn out to be innocent. That too,
of course, but perhaps he was so angry mostly because this would mean
Harry was never in danger from them, and this would mean Snape had
lost again his chance to save Harry and be quit. That could be the
real meaning behind `I have just saved your neck; you should be
thanking me on bended knee!' Not that theory about Snape warning James
from Sirius, which doesn't have any other support in canon."  

Faith was grimacing at all the perhapses and coulds, and Neri hastily
added: "I'm just saying that the Shrieking Shack scene could hardly be
called `dramatically weak'. And what about the `Flight of the Prince'
scene in HBP? Harry shouts at Snape `kill me like you killed him' and
Snape suddenly screams as if he's in terrible pain. This too isn't
exactly dramatically weak."

"He could be screaming because of his split soul," said Pippin. ""Now
he's desperately trying to save Harry because Dumbledore's told him it
will help heal the tear in his soul. But it doesn't stop him from
being an absolute !@#$ to Harry otherwise. In fact it makes it easier."

"Um, when you finish gasping, Neri, could we please have the relevant
canon?" said Faith.

Neri waved his wand again at the wall and the words appeared:

*********************************************************
OotP, Ch. 37:
"I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply. "But I forgot –
another old man's mistake – that some wounds run too deep for the
healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about
your father. I was wrong.
*********************************************************

"Well, if Dumbledore refers here to Snape's split soul, then after the
end of OotP Dumbledore had realized it could not be healed," said
Neri, "and logically he shouldn't have trusted Snape anymore."

Faith scowled.  "I don't think Dumbledore refers here to Snape's split
soul. Would you consider the possibility that he refers to Snape's
feelings about James?"


Neri