Who killed Dumbledore? Heroes and Not.

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 145107

Valky wrote on the Horcrux thread:

> 1. Harry destroyed the Diary *with* the Basilisk's Fang. The 
> Basilisk belonged to Voldemort.

Gerry:
Eh, I think the basilisk belonged to Salazar Slytherin. Voldemort just
found out how to let it out. 

Valky:
hmmm, I am assuming here, but I don't think it's such a big leap. 
Tom (Voldemort) is Slytherin's only Heir. Wouldn't that mean that
Slytherins possession's pass into his ownership? ie Salazar's =
Voldemort's by the definition of inheritance, right?

Gerry:
And I really hope we find out how he did that.

Valky:
I kind of hope so still, but I did expect this explanation to come a
lot more before HBP than I now do post-HBP. The series seems to have
spun off in another direction, and because of that I tend to think
this part will be left up to our imaginations.

> Sherry now:
> Any idea that lets Snape off the hook,
> especially one that would make Harry the true killer has to do way
> too much snipping and shoving to make it believable or acceptable 
> for me. 

Valky:
Hi Sherry, I always admire your toughness on this issue, and your
sense of conviction. 
Just this time I'd like to point out that I see this differently. I
have trouble with seeing Harry as the 'true killer' of Dumbledore too.
But I have very little trouble seeing him as the 'true destroyer of
the ring soul piece', and I see no problems with assuming Dumbledore
would sacrifice himself for this cause. To that end, the snipping and
shoving really isn't all that bad. Dumbledore never once says that
*he* destroyed the ring soul piece. He says only two things:
1. A withered hand is a reasonable *exchange* for one seventh of
Voldemorts soul.
2. The ring *is no longer a Horcrux*.

Compare that with :
That [diary] *piece of soul* is no more, you saw to that Harry.
and there is some clear dodging going on here. 

*emphasis all mine

Sherry:
Again, Harry is the hero. Snape is not the hero. Snape faking the AK 
to keep anyone from knowing that Harry had poisoned Dumbledore to 
death would make Snape the hero again. 

Valky:
No it would make Snape the fall guy, a heroic role in its' own right,
but not *the* Hero. *The* Hero vanquishes Voldemort, paying a heavy
cost such as the awful truth of how the ring piece of soul was
*really* destroyed just makes it more poignant a heroes role. 



Sherry:
But even more importantly, though I think that Harry, as the hero, has
and can and must make mistakes, for Harry to be the one who actually
killed Dumbledore by force feeding him the poison would be a sick
miserable outcome. Knowing all we do of how Harry thinks, does anyone
believe he could live with such a horrible thing?

Valky:
That depends on how far your definition of sick miserable outcome
extends. I think I know it doesn't extend to noble sacrifice because
we have talked about this in regard to Sirius' death before. So let's
imagine that this was a noble sacrifice, Dumbledore sacrificed himself
to destroy the ring piece of soul, in penance for his mistake he took
the whole burden of the guilt in ordering Harry to kill him and the
piece of Voldemort that he carried died with him. 

I think Dumbledore will have felt like you do, I am sure Dumbledore
would not want Harry to live with this terrible thing, so he hasn't
asked him to. 

I find this theory explains a lot and makes sense , but at this point
it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. Rotten tomatoes are welcome. <g>


Gerry wrote:
Interesting, makes for some lovely speculating. The UV was for Snape
to kill DD if Draco failed. But if Dumbledore was dying anyway, what
would that have meant for the conditions of the Vow? Would it mean
that the Vow was annulled? Or would it mean that Draco had failed?
If the second, Snape had better be fast or else he would be dead
Snape. If the first, Snape had no need to kill Dumbledore.

If Dumbledore was dying, that means Harry had indeed posioned him.
There was no way with the DEs in the school that Snape could help him.
But he could help Harry, by killing DD so Harry would not be a
murderer. Well, thats is a tough thing to ask. If Snape really is DDM
than he would be even more angry at Harry for being part of the death
of DD. And then DD asks him to sacrifice himself for Harry by killing
him. It would explain the please. Doing such a huge thing for a boy he
loathes, DD could no way be certain of Snape complying.


Valky:
I see a lot of that argument too Gerry. It is somehow logical, albeit
 in a difficult to stomach way. :)
Especially, IMO, the plea from Dumbledore makes the most sense if
Dumbledore is asking for Snape to do something terrible, I can't
imagine DD pleading for anything less than that. 

Lupinlore wrote:
As with most DDM! speculation, it
falls afoul of the fact that this is NOT SNAPE'S STORY. Nor is it
Dumbledore's story. This kind of convoluted (and unbelievable)
scenario has a tendancy to pull the focus completely off of Harry and
his decisions and onto the decisions and plans of Dumbledore and
Snape. Harry becomes a passive victim in the whole process, not a
hero whose decisions and actions are the focus of the tale.

Valky:
That's a really good point Lupinlore. Harry's decisions and actions
*are* the focus of the tale. But what of his decision to follow that
order in the cave, at some point Harry will have review that action.
What does he see then? By following Dumbledore's order, I mean, by
*choosing* to follow this order Harry weakened Dumbledore, is he not
party to Dumbledore's death? 

When Harry discovers that the Horcrux is a fake he thinks, 'Dumbledore
had weakened himself by drinking that terrible potion for *nothing*'. 
*emphasis, mine.
Later that night Harry reinforces in his mind how pointless the goings
on in the cave were.  In book seven, what is Harry looking back on in
the cave but his *own hand* in DD's death. Harry's choices and actions
are the focus of the book but his choice and actions in the cave as
they stand are just another contribution to Dumbledore's meaningless
futile death. 

This DDM Snape theory gives meaning to Harry's actions in the cave,
meaning that really should be there, but isn't. I fail to see how that
takes away from Harry's hero status.

Valky