The Needs of Snape's Redemption (was Re: Heroes or not)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 145238

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I think that most folks going with a DDM!Snape who *will* have a 
> > large role (though not the starring role) and a redemption story 
> > line, *do not* think Snape maliciously killed Dumbledore.

> >>Lupinlore:
> Hmmm.  I guess a DDM!Snape by definition (well, almost) didn't 
> maliciously kill Dumbledore.  So I think that for DDM!Snape to    
> come true, some explanation (poorly written as, IMO, it would      
> inevitably be) would have to be given for that.

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!  As to how well it's written, I imagine it'll be as well 
written as all the *other* explanations JKR has given us in *every 
single book* in the series. <g>  

> >>Alla:
> Yes, I understand. DD!M Snape does not really have to pay for
> anything except what he already paid for and that is what would    
> make DD!M Snape significantly less interesting to me. I should have
> phrased myself clearer in my previous post. I DO think that
> redemption is possible for OFH!Snape or ESE!Snape, I just hope that
> it is handled very carefully

Betsy Hp:
Gosh, we really *do* disagree!  Because I think it's impossible for 
an ESE or even an OFH Snape to be redeemed.  Too little too late.  
Especially since, as we all agree, this is Harry's story.  
Personally, I find DDM!Snape *fascinating* (and not a little sexy 
<eg>) so I've no worries on that particular front.  Actually, I 
think finding out Snape's true nature and watching Harry's reactions 
will be most interesting!

> >>Lupinlore:
> <snip> 
> And that is a huge problem when it comes to "redeeming" Snape     
> without pulling the focus off of Harry and in effect making Snape  
> (who you are right, I and others think is definitely a child       
> abuser) into the hero of the story.  Multiple pages of explanation 
> about this would have a tendency to lead in that direction.

Betsy Hp:
I think I see a much greater connection between Snape and Harry than 
you do.  So in learning about the real Professor Snape, Harry will 
learn a lot about himself.  (In some ways I think dealing honestly 
with Snape is a bigger obstacle for Harry to overcome in his journey 
to adulthood than finding the missing horcruxes.)  In the end, it 
*is* all about Harry.  It's how *Harry* sees Snape that matters.  So 
it's impossible for Snape's story to pull the focus off of Harry, 
just as learning about James or Tom Riddle fails to pull the focus 
of the story off of Harry. 

> >>Lupinlore: 
> But the problem with that, for many of our perspectives, is that 
> Harry's recognition CAN NOT come without penance and payment from 
> Snape for many things  -- payment and penance made specifically TO 
> HARRY.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
This is exactly the way Snape thinks.  And it's why he's failed to 
move on from what the Marauders did to him when he was a schoolboy.  
If Harry waits for action to come from Snape's end, he'll become 
exactly like Snape is now: bitter, angry and judgmental.  And since 
this is Harry's story, I have a feeling JKR will keep the action, 
the growth, on Harry's side.  I *hope* Snape will experience some 
growth himself, but that's not necessary for Harry to succeed.

The other thing is, IMO, you pile far too much on Snape's plate.  So 
there's an expectation for penance, on your end, for things I don't 
think Snape is actually responsible for.

> >>Lupinlore:
> <snip>
> Now, payment can be of many kinds, but will probably (and should  
> probably) include strong elements of both karmic punishment, as   
> discussed in another thread, and a genuine apology from Snape to   
> Harry.  And redemption, for those of use who feel quite strongly   
> that Snape IS a child abuser, MUST cover BOTH his actions against 
> Harry's parents AND his abuse of Harry, himself.  Anything else    
> would, IMO, constitute a deep moral flaw in the final structure of 
> the books.  

Betsy Hp:
And that's where the DDM folks differ from the OFH and ESE folks.  
Snape is *already* paying for what he did to Lily and James.  That's 
a huge part of what makes him DDM.  He's already paid for his 
actions against Neville, and he's in the midst of paying for his 
actions against Harry.  But then, I know we strongly disagree about 
what those actions were exactly. <g>  In the end though, it's 
*Harry's* view that will matter.  If *Harry* sees Snape in a new 
light, than that's all that's needed

> >>Lupinlore:
> <snip>
> As I've said before, from many of our perspectives, saying         
> that "Snape is DDM! and has been paying all along" doesn't fly any 
> day of the week and doesn't fly twice on Sunday.  So, to come back 
> to your original question, even if Snape is DDM! he is not         
> redeemed, IMO and that of others, without dealing specifically    
> with many other issues.  Sorry.

Betsy Hp:
So, the murder is explained, and that's fine, but you've still got a 
problem because you see Snape as a child abuser.  I get that.  But I 
don't think most DDM folks see Snape as a child abuser.  So it's 
kind of a non-starter, IMO.  It's like saying, "Snape won't be 
redeemed until he pays for the polyester leisure suit."  Yes, rules 
of fashion were harmed, but it has no connection to DDM!Snape.  You 
can bring up the horror of the powder blue time and again, but it 
doesn't touch DDM!Snape  So JKR does not have to deal with it.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <SNIP>
> > So book 7 won't *introduce* the redemption of Snape. It will
> > *reveal* a redemption well under way.
> > <SNIP>

> >>Alla:
> Yes, I understand that. And here I think lies my answer to Jen    
> Reese. ( if she will read this post of course :-)) She asked in   
> one of her posts why ESE! or OFH!version of Snape is more         
> interesting. To me it is because it allows Snape to change during 
> the story, not in the distant past - Snape was DE , saw the error 
> of his ways, came to Dumbledore, boom, his story is done.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Ooh, I don't think Snape's story is done *at all*.  Returning to 
Dumbledore was just the beginning to my mind.  And that's probably 
why I seriously doubt OFH Snape could possibly reach redemption in 
book 7.  Redemption can be a seriously long and arduous journey, and 
I think it's something that takes more than a year, and much more 
than a bit of public humilitation and a mere apology to achieve.  
One must prove oneself.  And that's what Snape has been doing all of 
these years.

Though I also think he proved himself to Dumbledore a long time 
ago.  I think right now Snape is trying to earn forgiveness from the 
hardest person possible: himself.

> >>Jen Reese:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/145189
> <major snip>
> It would be interesting if Snape were wavering in his loyalty
> throughout HBP. I don't think Snape himself knew his true feelings
> until that moment on the tower. 
> <snip>
> Dumbledore had done everything he could do for Snape at that      
> point, the choice was his.

Betsy Hp:
I read Snape's relationship with Dumbledore a bit differently.  I 
think Dumbledore was very confident in Snape, and I think Snape was 
(and is) a hundred percent loyal to Dumbledore.  However, I think 
*Snape* wasn't sure he had the strength to do what needed done.

You gave an interesting list of Dumbledore asking people to perform 
the task most difficult for them, and suggested this for Snape:

> >>Jen Reese:
> <snip>
> My guess is Snape's least wanted task in life was to protect James 
> Potter's son, so guess what?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think the most difficult task for Snape was either to let 
Dumbledore die, or actually kill him himself.  Because what was 
Snape horrified at being?  What did he flee to Dumbledore to try and 
earn forgivness for?  Killing.  I think Snape *did* deeply regret 
his role in the deaths of the Potters, and now here was Dumbledore 
asking him to do that which he most hated about himself.  And yet, 
it's what Snape *needed* to do if he was to be most useful to 
Dumbledore.  Talk about a hell of a choice.  And I think that's what 
Snape was wavering on.  Now *that's* drama!  At least, IMO. <g>

Betsy Hp