JKR's Single Biggest Error

Sat Feb 5 21:49:26 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 124010

> Vivamus (snipped):
> All right, I'll bite, but my nomination is a group of errors.  
> Ignorance of snakes.  
> 
> 1. No snake that has ever lived, AFAIK, could chomp on someone 
> like the snake that bit Arthur Weasley.  She describes the snake 
> splintering bones with it's bite, which snakes' jaws are not 
> physically capable of doing. 

Dungrollin:
I've been researching this, recently (it was me in post 115333), and 
I think that Bushmasters can strike hard enough to break bones, 
though I can't find a specific reference for you to prove it.  
Snakes generally leave half their length coiled on the ground and 
strike with the other half of their length, a tube of solid muscle 
6ft long would, I think be able to provide enough force to break a 
few ribs.  Moreover, I found some info on WebMed Health to suggest 
that a bite from a non-poisonous snake can break bones, so I
don't see why poisonous snakes shouldn't be able to.
(Hope these links work - if not you should be able to cut and paste.)

http://my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/sig241206.asp

Moreover, bushmasters are known to deliver more than one bite in a 
single attack. I don't see the bite as such (i.e. the pressure of 
the jaws being brought together and crushing the ribs between them) 
splintering the bones, but the force of the strike on a man's 
unprotected ribs could easily crack them as a sledgehammer would.

Vivamus:
> 2. No matter how big Nagini is, there is no way a venomous snake 
> is going to be big enough to eat a 14 year old boy.  

Dungrollin:
Agreed. However, in the graveyard Voldy doesn't specifically say 
anything about feeding Harry to Nagini, he says rather vaguely "Just 
a little longer, Nagini" which, to be honest, could refer to 
anything at all.

It's in chapter 29: The Dream where he says it explicitly: "Nagini 
[...] you are out of luck.  I will not be feeding Wormtail to you, 
after all ..." – But it might be significant that he's talking to 
Wormtail, and a rat *would* be just the right sized snack.

Vivamus:
> 3. People don't, usually, bleed when bitten by a poisonous snake.  
> In fact, they don't usually bleed when bitten by a non-poisonous 
> snake, except for defensive bites, which the attack on Arthur 
> certainly was not.
> 
> I've heard someone say that Nagini must be a Bushmaster.  It's 
> possible, as Bushmasters get up to almost four meters in length, 
> and Nagini is described as being over twelve feet long.  

Dungrollin:
Yup, that was me (post 115333 again).  And I'm going to disagree 
again; L. muta venom has neurotoxic, cardiotoxic, myotoxic, 
anticoagulant and haemorrhagic effects, here's a list of symptoms:

Edema (swelling) & Pain
Haemorrhage (gingival [gums], wound, rectal)
Blister formation around wound site
Abdominal pain (intense colic)
Bloody diarrhea
Hypotension (diastolic & systolic)
Bradycardia
Diminished heart sounds
Brief loss of consciousness 
Blurry vision 
Dizziness
Vomiting 

http://www-surgery.ucsd.edu/ent/DAVIDSON/Snake/Lachesis.htm

Haemorrhaging from the site of envenomation (the bite) is quite 
common with Crotaline snake bites (rattlesnakes, water moccasins, 
Fer-de-Lance etc) though all these symptoms (from what I've 
discovered) are very variable, and depend very much on how much 
venom was injected.

Vivamus before:
But Bushmasters (Lachesis mutus) have
> extremely powerful hemotoxin in their venom, and the larger a 
> snake is, the more venom it can inject.  With all the time it took 
> to get McGonagall and get to DD's office, Arthur would have been 
> long since dead by the time they got to DD.  I'm not counting this 
> one as an error, because we don't really know what kind of snake 
> it was, but most venomous snakes of that size would have killed 
> Arthur too quickly for help to arrive. 
> 

> Vivamus later:
> I think it still is a FLINT, though, and here is why. One would 
> expect that the venom from a magical giant snake would be no less 
> deadly than that of a non-magical snake. TR did tell Harry in CoS 
> that he had about a minute to live after the Basilisk fang got 
> him. Whatever Nagini is might not be as deadly as a Basilisk, but
> it  must have been ten minutes at the very least after seeing the 
> attack that Harry & co. could even have gotten to DD's office, and 
> probably another ten before anyone could physically have gotten to 
> Arthur to help him, and probably another ten minutes after that 
> before he could get any kind of treatment. The snake bit him four 
> times, so he probably got a full load of venom from a 12+ foot 
> long snake. Arthur would be dead long before anyone could get 
> there.
>
> (To put it in perspective, there are some snakes that can kill an 
> adult in a matter of seconds.)

Dungrollin:
I disagree (for a change...).  Venomous snakes can very 
finely judge the amount of venom they inject – we simply don't
know how much Arthur got (and by the way it was only three bites, 
not four), and the Basilisk undoubtedly injected a hell of a lot 
more venom than Nagini would be able to. I've seen some case studies 
on the web where people were bitten by bushmasters and didn't 
receive treatment for 2 hours, 5 hours and more, and they all 
survived.

"There are many factors that influence the seriousness of a bite, 
including the individual's health, size, age, and psychological 
state.  The nature of the bite may also vary, like penetration of 
one or both fangs, amount of venom injected, location of the bite, 
and proximity to major blood vessels. The health of the snake and 
the interval since it last used its venom mechanism is also 
important. These multiple variables make every bite unique. 
Depending on circumstances, the bite of a 'mildly' venomous snake 
may be life-threatening and that of a 'strongly' venomous snake may 
not."

http://www.manbir-online.com/htm2/snake.22.htm

I stick to my deduction that Nagini (on the basis of the information 
we have) is a bushmaster.  I don't think she's a magical snake
– what we've seen her do so far requires no magic at all.

But you were originally criticising JKR for not having done enough 
research... I'm trying to track down a paraphrased quote posted ages 
ago:

"JKR was asked if there was anything in PS/SS she wished she could 
go back and  change. She said that at the time it was published, she 
thought boa constrictors were poisonous."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/31778

Unfortunately I've had no luck so far – if anyone knows the quote 
I'd be very very grateful for a reference (it's not on QQQ or Madame 
Scoop). I think that JKR wanted the boa constrictor in PS/SS to be 
Nagini, then realised her error and had to abandon it. But after 
making an error like that, you'd be certain to do your research 
properly the next time around, wouldn't you?  Well, I would. So I 
stick with my 'Nagini is a bushmaster' theory. (No, hang on,
that's not very catchy, how about N.O.B.B.Y – Nagini Obviously a 
Bushmaster, Beware, Young'uns!)

Dungrollin
Apologising to Vivamus if he's(?) an expert on this, in which case 
I'll defer to superior knowledge gracefully.

My pet gripe is the whole of GoF, and why Fake!Moody wasted a whole 
year when he could have given Harry a portkey at any time.