JKR's Single Biggest Error

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 124052


Vivamus wrote:

Second, though, note the "reared high from the floor". The only 
snakes that do that, AFAIK, are cobras
<snip>
So we have two kinds of snakes, the rearing cobra type and 
the "coiling" Bushmaster type. There are other kinds, but let's 
stick with these for a minute. As an interesting aside, Silvana just 
mentioned that Nagini is the name of a Snake Goddess. As Naga is the 
Sanskrit word for cobra, with the feminine form Nagini, I would be 
willing to bet that any Indian Snake Goddess is going to be a cobra. 
Indian mythology has a *lot* of snake beings -- so many and in so 
many variants that JKR could have pulled the name from almost 
anywhere, but it still almost certainly is either a cobra
or cobra-like. (Note: many of the forms of Naginis are pythons
[non-poisonous constrictors], but as Nagini is clearly venomous, they
wouldn't likely apply.)

So Nagini is *most* likely a cobra, hence the rearing. JKR did say 
the snake reared, so it could not possibly have hit Arthur hard 
enough to break bones, let alone splinter, crush, cause blood to 
spatter, etc.

Dungrollin:
No, sorry, she can't be a cobra. If we're working on the assumption 
that the snake that attacked Arthur was Nagini (which is not 
canonically clear, though most people do seem to assume that) then 
you have to explain how she can see infrared.  

"... it was dark, yet he could see objects around him shimmering in 
strange, vibrant colours [...] a man was sitting on the floor ahead, 
his chin drooping on to his chest, his outline gleaming in the 
dark ..."

Cobras can't see infrared – they're diurnal, if you want a poisonous 
snake that can see infrared you need a pit-viper (Crotalinae), the 
only one of which fits is the bushmaster.  Asian pit-vipers don't 
have the right patterning and aren't big enough, Fer-de-Lance and 
rattlesnakes aren't big enough.  If she's a real snake, then she's a 
bushmaster. 

The infrared thing also supports the idea that JKR wanted the boa 
constrictor to be Nagini, but had to change it, since boas can see 
infrared too.


(Snipped and moved around a bit) Dungrollin, previously:
> Haemorrhaging from the site of envenomation (the bite) is
> quite common with Crotaline snake bites (rattlesnakes, water
> moccasins, Fer-de-Lance etc) though all these symptoms (from what 
> I've discovered) are very variable, and depend very much on how
> much venom was injected.

Vivamus:
All you say there is true, however, it does not result in anything 
like the passage describes. The haemorrhagic effects would take a 
matter of minutes to appear, at the very least. The book clearly has 
the blood flowing in great quantities from the instant of the 
attack, as if the attack came from a lion instead of a snake. If you 
get bitten by a poisonous snake, you are going to have two tiny 
punctures, and that's it. Other effects, including death, would come 
later.

<snip>
Assuming all that, it is still a blunt trauma on the OUTSIDE of his 
body, and only two tiny punctures through the skin for each strike. 
So where does the gushing blood come from? Bones that splintered so 
badly from the three strikes that they pierced arteries AND cut the 
skin? While that is unlikely in the extreme, you still have 
the "warm gush of blood" flowing in the mouth of the snake. 

Dungrollin:
Okay, I'll back down on this one - I'm not saying that the snake 
passages are FLINT-free, though you left out the one that really 
annoys me... In PS/SS the boa constrictor *winks* at Harry, and 
snakes don't have eyelids.

Vivamus:
You also have the bones splintering "beneath his jaws", which
really does not fit with the blunt trauma a straight-on strike would
produce, no matter how much you stretch it.

Dungrollin:
You can stretch it a bit. It doesn't say that there wasn't skin and 
flesh between the ribs and the jaws. If Nagini's holding her jaws at 
180º in order to bite (and the word 'bite' *is* confusing in this 
context, implying jaws coming together, which is not what venomous 
snakes do at all), then the ribs splintering beneath the jaws does 
just about work.  Kind of. But it is a bit of a stretch.



<snip>
Your quote was also snipped a bit prematurely, I think. To extend 
your quote a bit:

"Nagini," said the cold voice, "you are out of luck. I will not be 
feeding Wormtail to you, after all... but never mind, never 
mind . . . there is still Harry Potter. ..." The snake hissed. Harry 
could see its tongue fluttering.
<snip>
"Voldemort got a letter from an owl. He said something like, 
Wormtail's blunder had been repaired. He said someone was dead. Then 
he said, Wormtail wouldn't be fed to the snake - there was a snake 
beside his chair. He said - he said he'd be feeding me to it, 
instead." 
<snip>

All in all, it's pretty clear, I think, that JKR was thinking that 
Nagini was going to eat 14-year-old Harry.

Dungrollin:
One can be a bit more picky than that, I think. the "never mind, 
never mind... there is still Harry Potter..." doesn't *necessarily* 
mean that Nagini's going to get to eat him. Although that is what 
Harry assumes, it's not necessarily what Voldy and Nagini have in 
mind (insert Nagini-is-witch-trapped-in-animagus-form-by-Lily-and-
needing-blood-of-Harry-to-revert-to-human-form theory).


 

 
Dungrollin previously:
> I stick to my deduction that Nagini (on the basis of the 
> information we have) is a bushmaster. I don't think she's a 
> magical snake - what we've seen her do so far requires no magic at 
> all.

Vivamus:

<snip> 
Their bites result in an over 80% mortality rate. That translates to 
a very deadly snake, as some bites are going to be made by sick 
individuals who can't produce as much or as deadly venom, some will 
have already spent their venom, some will make glancing bites that 
only partly penetrate the skin through the clothing and can't get 
enough venom in, and so on. Some bites will happen where people can 
get medical help right away. Overall, 80% of people bitten ending up 
dead is *very* high.

<snip>
With three bites, there is no reason to expect that Arthur would 
have gotten anything less than a record load of fully deadly venom --
 probably enough to kill several healthy adults fairly quickly.


Dungrollin:
But an 80% mortality rate (and that's the highest that I've seen 
estimated) doesn't equate to "dead before you hit the floor". The 
articles I've found all say that there is a very high mortality rate 
*even* with antivenin, i.e. not because the venom kills quickly and 
people don't get treatment in time, but because the treatments are 
not hugely effective. Which would explain why St. Mungo's had such a 
tough time saving him, even though they got there very quickly 
(compared, for example, to someone being bitten in the middle of the 
jungle). 


Vivamus:
 
All in all, I think you are still stuck with three theories for 
Nagini, and all of them involve FLINTs of some sort. She is either

1. a Bushmaster, in which the rearing to strike, the crushing of 
ribs, the flow of blood, and Arthur not being dead in about five 
minutes are all FLINTS. The name Nagini (Sanskrit for female cobra) 
also doesn't fit a Bushmaster (South American).

2. a King Cobra, in which the crushing of ribs, the flow of blood, 
and Arthur not being dead in about TWO minutes are all FLINTS. The 
rearing to strike and the name Nagini DO fit, however.

3. a completely magical snake creature, 
<snip>

Dungrollin:
I stick by the Bushmaster, and agree that the rearing to strike and 
the flow of blood are ... not FLINTS as such, but an imaginative 
fiction due to limited research.  King Cobra is completely out for 
me, no diamond-patterned tail (in fact the only patterning they have 
is on the back of the hood), a hood which is never mentioned 
(unlikely) and no infrared vision. If she's a magical species we've 
not yet been introduced to, I'll feel a little cheated, since we've 
seen her do no magic at all so far.  And I'm not sure how much we 
can infer from the name Nagini – it's clearly a reference to the 
Naga, but I don't think it needs to be a clue to Nagini's identity.

So, in summary, I agree that the snake bits are a bit FLINTy, but 
not as much as you think. And I'm sticking with N.O.B.B.Y, too.

Dung