Chapter Discussion questions, chapter 37

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 124105


Alla summarized Chapter 37 in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124028 :

<< Discussion questions:

1. Do you think we will ever meet Phineas again? What do you think
about the possibility of the network of portraits playing even
larger role in the later battles? >>

I hope we meet Phineas again; like most listies, I like him. However,
I'd like a bit more info on how evil he was when alive.

Now that we know that the Headmasters' portraits work for Dumbledore,
we'll see them do more for him. I was surprised that one of the
portraits had deigned to gossip with Terry Boot (telling him that
Harry had killed a basilisk with that sword on Dumbledore's wall) --
it struck me as the same kind of status violation as if a real Live
Headmaster had deigned to gossip with a young student -- but now that
we know that portraits gossip with students, will Harry ever think of
*asking* them questions? I mean, even, "Did you know my parents?"!

If all the animated paintings are portraits of wizards and witches, it
would be mildly interesting to know how Sir Cadogan became a knight,
and I seem to recall there being some animated cows in the painting
where the Fat Lady was finally found hiding -- are they portraits of
magic cows?

<< 2. Harry blames himself for Sirius's death. Do you? >>

Yes. As long as Harry has energy to waste blaming *Snape* for Sirius's
death, Harry is not blaming himself *enough*. Oh, sure, the main cause
was Voldemort (remember in GoF, when Harry had learned about Neville's
parents, and went to bed thinking of all those people killed and
disabled and torn from their loved ones and all those families
destroyed, and it was all Voldemort's doing?), second cause the Death
Eaters who served Voldemort and went on the mission to the Ministry
and actually shot him, third cause that disgusting toe-rag Kreachur,
but fourth cause was Harry having recklessly rushed into danger, in
disregard of Hermione's good logical advice, and thus made it
necessary for Sirius to come to rescue *him* and thus be in danger. If
Harry doesn't understand the cause and effect, how will he ever learn
to stop being such a reckless, careless idiot? Well, one of my
theories is he will learn when he puts himself into even more
desperate, doomed danger and it is *Snape* who dies to save him --
because Snape will have some memorably hurtful remarks to say to him
in the process.

<< 5. Dumbledore blames himself for Sirius death. Do you? >>

Dumbledore doesn't blame himself *enough* for Sirius's death.
Dumbledore knew perfectly well that he was making Sirius crazy by
keeping him locked up in that *place* with that Kreachur and that
Snape sniping at him (Dumbledore said as much in his 'confession'). If
Dumbledore WASN'T setting the whole thing up so that Sirius would be
killed so that Harry would grieve so that Harry would be a better
weapon against LV, Dumbledore should have *ordered* Sirius back to his
tropical island or some other overseas assignment for the Order. If
the argument was that Kreachur wouldn't obey anyone else, then DD
could have ordered Sirius to take Kreachur with him. The bright
sunlight and change of scenery might have killed him right off :) If
the argument was that Harry needed Sirius, the counter-argument is:
not when DD had forbidden him to tell Harry anything.

<< 13. We see Dumbledore crying in this chapter for the first time in
the books. Despite the fact that a similar question was already
posted couple of days ago,(message 123486) I decided not to delete
mine. What did you feel when you read about Dumbledore's tear? >>

I wondered if he was faking it.

Tammy in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124031 :

<< Actually I think that most of the evidence points to Dumbledore
being at fault for Sirius' death. Had Dumbledore explained even a few
small things to Harry, then Sirius needn't have died. For example, had
Dumbledore been the one to explain to Harry why Occlumency was so
necessary, then Harry may have taken the lessons more seriously. >>

I believe that even if Harry had learned to be a superb Occlumens,
that would not have made any difference, as the way that LV put things
into Harry's mind (visions, ideas, feelings), and even the way that LV
got information from Harry's mind, was something totally different
from Legilimency. Occloumency blocks Legilimency, not scar-vision.
Altho' perhaps next book Harry will be attacked by Legilimency and
*wish* he had tried to learn those lessons.

Tonks_op in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124043

<< Harry ... had a choice to follow DD (an older, wiser person who
Harry knew had his best interest at heart) >>

According to me, Harry did not *know* that DD had his best interest at
heart. We readers only know that from JKR interviews, not from the
books. From the books, we are left in the same position as Harry: DD
did X and did Y .. DD made me live with horrible Dursleys but then he
brought me to Hogwarts, DD won't speak to me or make eye contact with
me but then he saved me from the kangaroo court. Is he looking out for
my best interests, with reasons that I don't understand for the
unpleasant things he does to me, or is he a cold man planning to use
me as a pawn in some scheme and the pleasant things he does are just
to gain my trust?

<< 3. Dumbledore is sure that Harry IS the person the prophecy talks
about. Are you? >>

No. The purpose of Prophecies in literature is to be misinterpreted. 

<< 7. Do you agree with the possibility that Neville may turn out to
be the real prophecy child?

8. Do you think that there is a possibility that the prophecy does
not speak about either Harry or Neville? Can you offer completely
new and unexpected interpretation of it? >>

I would like if it turned out to be Neville who vanquishes Voldemort
-- Harry hasn't been an Ugly Duckling since his first Quidditch match.
I also like the idea, suggested on this list, that the Prophecy was
*already* fulfilled at Godric's Hollow on Halloween 1981, so now the
characters are back in free will mode. 

<< 4. Harry complains to Dumbledore that Occlumency lessons were
weakening him. Dumbledore replies with his usual vow of trust for
Snape. Do you trust Snape? >>

Well, I don't think Snape is serving LV. I think he follows DD's
direct orders. But he might do some very nasty and harmful things if
DD didn't think in advance of ordering him not to do those specific
things. In case of Occlumency, I believe he was following DD's orders
to do his best to teach HP Occlumency without telling HP any more than
he could avoid about what was going on. I don't know if DD was sincere
or DD was intending to soften HP up for LV as part of a plot to use HP
and the Prophecy to lure LV out of hiding into the headlines or DD was
intending to soften HP up for LV as part of a plot to get Sirius
killed (as per my answer to #5)

<< 6. Voldemort did not choose the pureblood wizard like Neville
"which, according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being
or knowing." Does this quote make a difference in your view on whether
Voldemort himself is sufficiently interested in promoting
"purebloodism" or just in grabbing power, no matter who helps him
achieve it? >>

I never believed that Voldemort was interested in promoting
purebloodism, and I have doubts that Voldemort ever *said* that
pureblood wizards were automatically entitled to power and top
positions. I suspect that Malfoys and Blacks assumed that was his
belief because he did speak of polluting wizard blood by admitting
Muggle-borns. It seems to me that Voldemort's hatred of Muggles (by
extension from his Muggle father) for some reason includes
Muggle-borns, but not mixed-blood (like allegedly most wizards) or
even half-bloods (like himself).

<< 9. Dumbledore tells us that Sibyll is the great granddaughter of
Cassandra Trelawney. As we know from mythology, nobody believed
Cassandra's predictions which turned out to be true. Do you think
that JKR is hinting that Sibyll is a more gifted seer that
Dumbledore thinks? Do you think that there is more to Sibyll than
meets the eye?

10. Who is the infamous eavesdropper?

11. Dumbledore tells Harry, "In the end, it mattered not that you
could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." Does
this mean that occlumency lessons were unnecessary in the first
place? Was Dumbledore aware that Harry has plenty of that power in
that room BEFORE possession occurred? >>

Maybe Harry didn't have so much of that power in him before he saw
Sirius killed, or maybe it was seeing Ginny, Neville, and Luna willing
to give their lives fo him.

<< 12. Do you think that this chapter was well done "plot wise"? I
don't remember my complete reaction when I read it for the first
time, but I remember that disappointment was definitely there. I
was thinking something like "that is the big secret"? Do you think
that it would have been more effective if Harry learns about the
contents of the prophecy from somebody else? Yesterday for
some reason I was imagining Voldemort explaining things to Harry
instead of Dumbledore. "Potter, we have to kill one another or be
killed. You better be prepared." :o) What do you think? >>

Renee in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124050 :

<< No, it was very unsatisfactory to me, and the big secret struck me
as rather lame. >>

I was irritated that it was the *wrong* Prophecy. The list had already
had years to discuss H's question and DD's answer at the end of PS/SS
(Why does LV want to me kill me? Alas, I cannot tell you now), and I
had become convinced that DD and LV both believed a Prophecy that HP
would kill LV (that answers H's question) and HP would die when LV did
(that explains DD's answer). Just that DD didn't want to tell H that
the wizarding world was depending on him is kind of feeble.

<< I didn't like DD's "blaming the victim act" (Sirius ought to have
treated Kreacher better) either; it's inappropriate to say such things
to the bereaved, and not at all in character for a loving and wise old
man. >> 

Damn right. Not only inappropriate, but not true. Per Cleverwitch in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124081 : << I
seriously doubt any show of kindness would have altered his allegiance
or his behavior. Look at the way he responds to Hermione's words and
acts of kindness.>> Sirius should have kept better track of Kreachur,
especially since Harry specifically warned him, but that is not the
same as treat him better.