Dumbledore the General..gettin' long

[doddiemoemoe]

No: HPFGUIDX 124247


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:


Doddie here..I have some responses to what many have posted and then 
some..
> 
> Debbie:
> 
> In any event, Dumbledore's failure to mount an offensive against 
> Voldemort in OOP seems consistent with my view of the Order. > 
stoop to their level.

With Voldemort you cannot mount an immediate offensive..because DD 
cannot leguimens thousands of minds....as snape, if he actually is a 
spy cannot either...  There is no cannon as to how a legumiens will 
read one who has been curioed...In an early offense you do not want 
to give away to the leader that you 1. know thier inner circle 2. If 
a certain few try to discredit you....you must offer more proof than 
he said or she said...(look at all the proof that war outbreak was 
imminent at the start of WWII...yet look how long it took anyone to 
respond...Despite the 100's of generals etc. on hand they refused to 
believe that Germany wanted to start another war...and even AFTER 
the war had been going on for a couple of years....the U.S. still 
refused to believed it involved them...up until the attack on Pearl 
Harbor..and even then the declaration of war took some time.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I agree with you in general - such as I also believe that 
Dumbledore 
> wants to change the "thinking" of WW as a whole, or at least I" 
want 
> to believe that, because I think that I a whole lot of things need 
> to be changed in WW.
> 
> I don't think though that Dumbledore can afford to be 
on "defensive" 
> any more.
> 

Well continuing on from my response above...you cannot readily 
change thinking...thinking is the last thing to change. (hence how 
long it took countries outside of "occupied Germany" to realize 
genocide was happening...even in our present day/age...we still are 
not detecting(or accepting/realizing) genocide is actually happening 
until millions or hundreds of thousands or even thousands have 
died...all told...DD is proving to be an exceptional general on this 
account!


> Debbie:
> 
> I believe the *Good* side cannot win this war if they engage the 
DEs 
> on their own terms; they can only win by moral superiority.   
Thus, 
> they cannot function by entrapping and killing DEs.

I don't believe this as if we want them to loose then most of us 
believe that we are already on the morally superior side...just as 
they do now...those who place themselves on moral hight grounds 
often are blind to the "moral high ground" there enemey supports...
(for ex. during wwII, did Japan care anything about the Jews?(most 
likely not) Japan entered the war for completely different reasons 
than domination of europe...

> -- Kristen:
>  
> 1) Yes, he sent Hagrid to get the Giants.  
> 2) He is speaking out to the wizarding world that Voldemort has 
> returned even though it is costing him political capital. 
> 3) He has the order members tracking know death eaters.  While I 
> know it might be more active to "take them out".   Remember that 
> Azkaban may not be under MOM control much longer and they are 
trying 
> to learn more of the enemies plans.
> 4) He has order members looking for international support and 
> recruiting members
> 5) He may (or may not) have Snape out there spying on DEs.  But 
> either way he is up to something.
> 6) He has order members guarding the prophecy in an effort to keep 
> that "weapon" out of Voldemort's hands.
> Last: This is all Harry knows of we don't know what.
> 

This is more than any world leader did prior to or at the beginning 
of WWI OR WWII...
> 
> Alla:
> 
> But as I said above all those are negotiation efforts, not war 
> tactics, at least it does not look like one to me yet.
> I agree with your last point though - Harry may not know all order 
> did, considering he was kept in the Dark about his own destiny 
> through OOP, so maybe he was kept in the Dark about Order's other 
> missions.
> 
Given what any average citizen knew in most countries prior to a 
WW..I would state that most are clueless than any sort of 
negotiation is even necessary at this point.(even if they had 
believed DD and Harry).(look at the purposeful sinkings of civilian 
vessels at the beginning of WWII....how many countries/cities 
refused to help the Jews etc..
> 
> 
> Kristen: 
> In a war that is not yet public, I'm not sure what else you expect 
> the order to do right now. 

I would expect them to do what they are doing..the only reason why 
they failed is that they never spoke to Harry...if any of them had 
asked him what he thought--even those that gave him a limited 
knowledge...Harry would have told/asked them if he was the 
weapon!!!!  This may have prevented Sirius' death..(personally I 
think this is why we are so upset at DD--seeing as even if Snape 
garnered this from Occlumency lessons Snape would have simply 
thought it was just "arrogant Harry placing himself in the middle of 
everything"!) 

> Alla:
> 
> I believe they can attack DE quietly. Ministry and Fudge do not 
have to know about it, you know. :o)


Alas the history of warfare has taught us that be sure who you are 
attacking first...best to try to pump them for info first..REMEMBER 
DELORES.....Not only does the OOP have to worry about DE's at this 
time...they have to worry about ministry loyalists(like marrietta's 
mother)  AND DE's  AND all those who are leaning towards supporting 
either one or the other.  At this point in the game the only ones 
taking sides are DE's and OOP members...and you simply cannot sort 
the WW AT THIS TIME into these two categories.
> 


I'm upset at DD too...He should have told Harry about the prophecy 
at the end of POA!!!(so at least Harry would have a little time to 
sort it out with his God Father...)  The whole part of the prophecy  
that I don't know understand is why DD didn't tell Harry about it at 
the end of GOF...especially after he made such a fuss for Harry to 
listen to crouch jr.'s confession AND have Harry retell the grave 
yard scene..  Why not tell Harry about the prophecy when Harry had a 
little support???(I think this may have lead to more credence for 
Harry to have himself and Co. go to the DOM in book five.....not 
only does Voldy want prophecy but it torturing Sirius to see what he 
knows..) My only answer to this thus far is that YES..DD does trust 
Snape...he trusts snape to do the WRONG thing...OR..He trusts snape 
to look after Snape's own needs first.  No matter what lense you 
view snape from...1. he loathes Harry and 2.  He(snape) looks after 
his own interests first...the only time this changes is if he can 
hurt harry in some way..


Doddiemoemoe
(who think that Fred and George will run more than a joke shop in 
the end...if they're this good at jokes..can you imagine their 
weaponry?  What a wise investment for Harry!)