Dumbledore the General (LONG)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 124269


Nicky Joe:

My chief irritation with DD is that he had FIFTEEN years to plan for 
LV's return.  Couldn't he have spent a couple hours of that fifteen 
years making a few plans?  Hmmm, let's say Voldemort returns to full 
strength one day.  What shall we do?  I know, let's wait around and 
hope that little Harry grows up to be a big strong wizard that can 
take him out - oh wait, we already know that happens because the 
prophecy says so.  Great!  We'll just sit here and eat some candies. 

Alla:

MAHAHAHA! Very good point,which I did not even consider properly. 
Dumbledore tells Harry himself that he did not believe that Voldie 
was gone forever fifteen years ago.

So, all those negotiations with giants, etc. should have been started 
MUCH earlier than they did ( although maybe DD tried to do so and we 
are not aware of it yet)

 
Debbie wrote early:
I think Dumbledore and the Order, however, have a 
different role, which includes the quiet pursuit of social change.  
And to champion that goal, they have to be a moral force, not simply 
a military force. 


Nicky Joe: 
I think that's exactly what DD plans to do.  Sit back with his high 
morals hoping for social change while coaching Harry and handing him 
the tools to get rid of the bad guys for him.  Does the fact that he 
doesn't want to get his hands dirty make him a better person?  The 
fact that the prophecy says Harry is the only one with the power to 
take out Voldemort doesn't mean that they should all just wait around 
for Harry to do it.  They should at least be making some plans to 
take out the DEs, because there is no prophecy that says Bellatrix 
will not take out Harry five minutes before his final duel with 
Voldemort.


Alla:

I hope it is not that simple that Dumbledore does not want to get his 
hands dirty,while waiting till Harry grows up and does the dirty job 
for him, because otherwise Dumbledore will be on my list of "hated" 
characters and he is not there yet.

I mean technically he really cannot kill Voldemort accroding to the 
Prophecy, but if you mean taking out DE by "getting his hands dirty", 
I agree with you.


Astrofiammante:
And it's not as if the Order is working without limitations, either.
Scalpel poised for a surgical strike? Or a band of renegades that
barely functions within society? From OotP ch5 p 89 Bloomsbury hbk:
 
"'But you're telling people, aren't you?' said Harry, looking round at
Mr Weasley, Sirius, Bill, Mundungus, Lupin and Tonks. 'You're letting
people know he's back?' They all smiled humourlessly.'Well, as 
everybody thinks I'm a mad mass-murderer, and the Ministry's put a 
ten thousand Galleon price on my head, I can hardly stroll up the 
street and start handing out leaflets, can I?' said Sirius 
restlessly.  'And I'm not a very popular dinner guest with most of 
the community,'said Lupin. 'It's an occupational hazard of being a 
werewolf.''Tonks and Arthur would lose their jobs at the Ministry if 
theystarted shooting their mouths off,' said Sirius, 'and it's very 
important for us to have spies inside the ministry, because you can
bet Voldemort will have them.'"  
 
Alla:

Are you saying that this fact stops Order from doing what they must? 
because in my opinion it should help them in their operations. The 
fact that they are not very well accepted in the society could mean 
that nobody pays much attention to their actions.

Did I misunderstand your point?

SSSusan:
This is the question which needs to be answered, I suppose.  In time 
of WAR, *can* the principles be held onto, or must they be set aside 
for the sake of winning the war?  
 
I know that clinging to them goes against many people's notions of 
vengeance and what's necessary during war, but maybe it's just what 
JKR is going to hold up a necessary??
 
If Deb is right that DD is holding to principles of pushing for true 
social change, not just victory-whatever-it-takes, then here is where 
my concern comes in:  To what degree do the other Order members buy 
into the need to do things this way?  If DD kicks it in HBP, as many 
fans believe he will, who'll take over?  Do the others believe in 
DD's vision as strongly?  Do the younger folks even know it's the 
goal and buy into it at all?  What then?


Alla:

My suspicion is that Dumbledore is not that pacifistic, or at least I 
hope not. Let me clarify though, I don't think that principles are 
needed to be set aside for the war. I also don't think though that 
general has a moral right to sit and watch his soldiers get killed 
simply for the sake of his principles.
Let's wait till enemy wisens up and decides that fighting is bad, bad 
thing. I hope not.

I don't believe in war, I think war should be avoided at any costs 
and negotiations are a wonderful thing, BUT I also don't believe that 
if someone launches a full blown offensive against you, on your 
territory, you have a right to sit and wait and watch what happens.

I have no answer to your question Susan whether younger folks agree 
with Dumbledore's principles as to how to fight, because I am not 
sure WHAT Dumbledore's principles ARE at this point.

That is another reason of why I think Dumbledore MAY survive till the 
end, because the reasons for his actions are still unclear to me and 
MAYBE JKR will want to keep them secret till the end.



Lauraasia wrote:
 
Dumbledore's strategy is to get the Wizarding World to engage
Voldemort and his allies in open war as soon as possible. He *does
not* want the conflict to remain hidden and secret. He does not want
acts of terror, he wants outright war.
 
He informs students, the Ministry and the world as soon as Voldemort
returns. He doesn't waste time with minor nuisances like blocking
Death Eater's bank accounts because all that will do will buy the Dark
Side more time. The longer it takes for open war to be declared, the
more foolish Dumbledore appears. The longer it takes, the easier it is
for the world to right him off as senile and ignore his 'warnings.'

snip.

Maybe his apparent lack of offensive strategy is just a strategic way
of bringing the war out into the open sooner.
 
His defence of the Department of Mysteries encourages the Dark Side to
attack. And on Ministry soil at that. That's a good plan as any for
starting an open war.

Alla:

I am afraid I don't understand. I would love for your assumption to 
be correct - namely that Dumbledore indeed wants the war in the open 
ASAP, but I absolutely don't see how his way of doing things 
encourages DE to attack.

His defence in the battle of MOM was a necessary measure,which they 
wanted to avoid at all costs.

Do you mind explaining more what Dumbledore does to bring the war out 
in the open, please?

Lauraasia:

So, Dumbledore wants war *now* but he also wants to put off the
Harry-Voldemort confrontation until the last possible minute- the
minute when the war is just about over, the Dark Allies are defeated
and only the evil King Pin remains. 
 
I bet JKR wants the same thing for dramatic purposes.


Alla:

I would agree with you, but as I said above, I don't see how 
Dumbledore's actions make the war out in the open faster. Through OOP 
all what I saw was avoiding the confrontation.


Just my opinion,

Alla