Draco = Evil?(was: Elkins' Draco Malfoy Is Ever So Lame. )

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 124748


>>Naama:
>Not being clever enough to hide your emotions, doesn't mean you 
are "pure emotion" - but maybe this is merely a difference in 
semantics. Draco is motivated by his feelings (but who isn't?) - 
it's just that these feelings are so nasty.<

Betsy:
I think we are arguing semantics.  My main point was that Draco is 
too emotional, too motivated by his feelings (nasty or not) to be as 
coldly calculating as you suggested earlier.

>>Betsy:
>Good lord, a student interested in his studies and his sport!  Lock 
up the women and children; another Dark Lord is being formed! <eg><

>>Naama:
>Well, you said he wasn't ambitious - I showed that he was. What 
other ambitions could he have - other than excelling in studies and 
sports?

Betsy:
I was trying to say that other than normal ambitions (like studies 
and sports) Draco didn't appear to have much of any.  Certainly not 
of the "evil Dark Lord I will rule the world!" kind, anyway. 

>>Naama:
>And really, you know, bribing your way into the team shows more 
intense ambition than being "interested", you know. 
> Where, oh where, does it say that he is the second best seeker?! 
And Hermione expressed what was already clear to the reader - that 
the new brooms bought Draco his position.<

Betsy:
Has Slytherin lost to anyone, other than Gryffindor, since Draco's 
been Seeker?  I don't recall that they ever have - though I'll admit 
I don't have the stats down pat.  But Harry does take him seriously 
as an opponent.  And I believe that Slytherin has won the Quidditch 
cup every year except when Gryffindor won in PoA.  (Which, funnily 
enough, was won not because Harry was the better player, but because 
he had the better broom.)

I also have stong doubts that Lucius bought his son a place on the 
team because it seems wildly out of character for the man we meet at 
the beginning of CoS.  He wasn't interested in buying his son 
anything.  (But, I can see him showing off his wealth and power by 
supplying his son's team with state of the art brooms.)

>>Naama: 
> I am sick and tired of this "Harry's POV" argument. *Unless* there 
is text to prove otherwise, we have to take the information we are 
given as given. We have a report that Draco didn't sound sorry - we 
nothing in the text to suggest that this Harry's impressions are 
wrong or warped.<

Betsy:
Except that Harry has already expressed his dislike for this boy.  
(Though because they'd started to argue, and because Draco was an 
eleven year old boy, I imagine he didn't sound all that sorry.)  But 
I'm sorry, Naama, the "Harry's POV" argument will be used again and 
again.  Because the story *is* told from his POV, and he's been 
proven wrong in the past.  Sirius looked evil and crazy to Harry at 
first.  When Harry learned more about him, Sirius looked haunted and 
pained.  A great deal depends on POV. 

>>Betsy:
>Hermione is an enemy and the threat to her life was a distant 
[oops! fixed spelling] possibility.  Again, not a great opportunity.<

>>Naama: 
> Did you mean "distant" or "distinct"? Because it was "distinct", 
you know. Muggle borns were being attacked and she is a Muggle born.<

Betsy:
And Hogwarts is full of Muggle borns.  I put this wish of Draco's on 
par with Harry's wish to smash Snape's head in with a cauldron.  Not 
a nice wish, no.  But until either boy is gloating over a dead body, 
I tend to give them a pass. 

>>Naama: 
>Nothing, nothing, nothing in the text even hints at Draco having 
any concerns or grievances about Snape not getting the job. None. We 
also don't see Draco displaying animosity to other DADA teachers. 
So, what are you basing this on? The text is *clear* - Draco feels 
contempt for Lupin because of his shabbiness. Period.<

Betsy:
I don't have my books with me, but I believe in PoA, Draco goes on 
and on to Snape about what a great Headmaster he'd make.  And there 
are the interactions between Snape and Draco in Potions class.  
These are two people who like each other.  And since we've 
established that Draco isn't all that good at hiding how he feels 
about people, I feel pretty safe in assuming that he likes and 
admires Snape.

And we learn in PS/SS that everyone knows Snape's been after the 
DADA job for years.  So I'm sure the Slytherins have heard that 
rumor too.  As to Draco's reactions to all the other DADA profs, 
well, we know he didn't like Moody <g>, but as Harry doesn't have 
DADA with Slytherin, everything else is just guess work. (Once 
again, limited by Harry's POV. <g>)

Plus, Harry easily picked up on the fact that there was tension 
between Snape and Lupin.  Why is it such a stretch to think that 
Draco picked up on it as well?  

And again, I do agree that Draco does judge people on appearances.  
I just think there's a bit more behind his sneering.  

>>Naama: 
>Draco or any of the other Slytherins are never presented in 
situations that call for compassion. Even so (as I said above), when 
Draco was being bounced - which he richly deserved - Hermione felt 
concern for him.<
<snip>

Betsy:
Did she? Well good for her.  I'm glad *someone* can tell the 
difference between proper student discipline and out and out abuse.  
(You seriously think Draco *deserved* that treatment?  I'm guessing 
you think the twins should have been whipped at the end of OotP, 
then?  Or do only Slytherins deserve corporal punishment?  Sorry, I 
got a bit ranty, but this is one of the things that really gets me 
going, and gets me so sympathetic towards Draco.  I didn't see 
anything in that scene that made me think Draco deserved the 
treatment he recieved.  Do you think Harry deserved to be thrown to 
the floor and have a jar thrown at him after he peeked into Snape's 
pensieve?  I'm curious.)

As to times to show compassion: There's the ferret bounce, the time 
Draco lost the big Quidditch match, when his father got thrown in 
jail, after he was wounded by the hippogriff.

Not that I really would expect any of the Gryffindor kids to show 
compassion at those times (except maybe the ferret bounce - good on 
Hermoine).  These kids are enemies after all.  And I wasn't 
suggesting that Harry and co. never show compassion.  I *was* 
pointing out the limitations of Harry's POV.  Maybe Draco helps 
first year Slytherins with their Potions homework.  Maybe he's the 
only thing helping Crabbe and Goyle get through their classes.  We 
don't know.  Because we rarely see the Slytherins in their natural 
environment and not confronting their Gryffindor counterparts. 

>>Naama:
>So, he finds [Hermione] attractive and that excuses ... what 
exactly?<

Betsy:
Erm... what was I trying to excuse?  And we don't *know* if Draco is 
secretly crushing on Hermione.  That's just a theory.  Not one I'm 
sure is true or not.  It *sounds* cool, but there's not much canon 
and a whole lot of guessing. :) 

>>Betsy:
>I think you and I have a different definition of evil.<  

>>Naama: 
> Context, context, context. We see Draco in a certain environment. 
School. He is just about the worst fellow student one can have - in 
this sense he embodies something. Don't call it evil if you don't 
want to.<

Betsy:
Yes, context.  In a world with Voldemort you'll have a hard time 
convincing me that silly, petty, Draco is supposed to be *evil*.  
And *worst* fellow student?  Please.  He's barely a blip on Harry 
and co.'s radar.  Why else did we hear so little of himn OotP.  His 
digs are tired, and his songs, while hurtful to Ron, won't cause a 
bunch of dead bodies.  And won't get a fellow student expelled. 
(Hello, Tom Riddle!)

So no, I won't call Draco evil.  I won't call him purple either.  
How do you define evil that you think Draco fits that definition? 

>>Naama:
>It doesn't matter. The thing is, everything he does arises from 
mean, petty, vicious, sadistic motives and impulses. As a young boy, 
it expresses itself in relatively minor things. By having him part 
of the IS (mini-Stasi, as Nora aptly called it), JKR shows us a 
consistent development - from mean, vicious boy to dangerous, 
sadistic bully and terrorizer.<

Betsy:
But see, it does matter, because you are trying to say Draco is 
evil.  And yet, he doesn't fit the discription.  He doesn't actually 
*terrorize* the other students.  No one is afraid to see him 
coming.  Not even when he was a member of Umbridge's IS. (Which, as 
I told Nora, is not all that close to a mini-Stasi really - far too 
imcompetent.)

We have Tom Riddle as an excellent example of an evil student.  
Draco doesn't even come close. 

>>Betsy:
>The extreme level of pay-back Draco *always* suffers makes what 
Draco had been doing insignificant, IMO.  (Plus, when has Draco 
*succeeded* in hurting anybody?)<

>>Naama:  
>All the time - he hurts Ron with his jabs at his family, he makes 
Harry feel like shit, he hurts Neville, he shames Ginny in public, 
he offends Hermione, he sabotages Hagrid's lessons...<

Betsy:
He embarrassed Ginny her first year.  He picked on Neville (I think 
only in their first year).  He picks on Hermione (though I don't 
think he actually hurts her - she's too smart for that).  He does 
get in jabs at Ron.  Harry...  He really makes Harry feel bad?  I 
don't recall that.  Not since first year anyway.  I've rather 
thought Harry had outgrown Draco.  As to Hagrid - when did he 
sabotage one of Hagrid's classes?

So, in sum, he pokes fun at people.  By all means, he totally 
deserves to have the crap beaten out of him!  By golly, he made up a 
silly song about Ron - lets hex him so badly his physical structure 
actually changes!  Or, I know!  Lets get a couple of guys and pound 
him into the ground!  I mean, gosh, he *is* horribly petty.  

>>Naama:
>See Nora's posts on Draco's role in the books. I fully concur.<

Betsy:
Seen them, answered them.  I don't concur.  But since we're 
recommending posts, see Eric Oppen's post on what an evil child 
*really* looks like.  I totally agree with him:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124730

Betsy, who's not sure Draco will end up good, but doesn't think 
he'll end up full out evil.