Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 124877


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" <bob.oliver at c...> wrote:
> 
> It seems to me that a strong case can be made that JKR has cheated
> rather badly by introducing the prophecy as worded in OOTP. 
> ...edited...  However, she has tried to emphasize, time and again, 
> the power of personal choice.  Then she introduces a prophecy that, 
> by its very nature, so strongly restricts the scope of personal 
> choice as to make it meaningless, or nearly so, in some contexts.
> 

bboyminn:

Sorry, I don't buy it. At least not beyond the fact that everyday in
every muggle way we are faced with restricted choices. 

Locally, a great and reliable Prophet has made a prophecy that effects
me, a prophecy that resticts my logical choices, but doesn't prevent
me from choosing less logical options. The Prophet is the weatherman
and the prophecy is 'freezing rain tomorrow'. Yes, that prophecy
effect my life, it effects the choices I am going to make, it dictates
some of the choice I should make, but I would never go so far as to
say that it has restricted my free will. 

I can choose to ignore it, people do that all the time. I can choose
to stay home, I can choose to proceed with caution, I can choose to
wait until mid-day before going out, I can choose to drive slower, or
I can choose to drive faster and take my chances. The existance of
that prophecy is effecting my choices, but it isn't dictating them, or
limiting my free will.

The same is true of Dumbledore and Harry. 

First, Dumbledore's actions aren't dictated by the prophecy with
regard to Harry being placed at the Dursleys. There is ample logic for
him being there, and first and foremost is, they are his only living
relatives and his very close relatives; his mother's sister. In any
real-life situation, that automatically makes them the first choice.
Dumbledore enhanced the quality of that first choice by placing the
'Blood Protection' on Harry to keep him safe from existing Death
Eaters, and safe in the event of Voldemort's early return. 

Next, Prophecies are vague and mysterious. The Prophecy in question
says that a boy born as the seventh month dies with have the power to
defeat the Dark Lord. Dumbledore has many many choices here. First, is
to choose to assume that the Prophecy means the seventh month of THIS
year; maybe it's not this year. Given the vague nature of prophecies,
it could mean in a 100 years. It mentions the Dark Lord, but never
mentions Voldemort by name. I'm sure there are dozens of Dark Lords in
the world. 

The most ambiguous and unclear part of the Prophecy is that neither
can live while the other survives; except that they are both living
and surviving right now. How much weight can you give to a prophecy
that seems to be self-contradictory? 

Even Voldemort had choices and free will. He could have waited to see
how big a threat the 'Prophecy Boys' were, and waited to see which one
was the greatest threat. But he didn't, he made a free-will choice to
act immediately, and by doing so actually seal part of the Prophecy,
or at least, it has been /interpreted/ that he seal the Prophecy. It's
still possible that Voldemort has or will mark Neville by some less
obvious and less dramatic means. 

Harry also has plenty of choices. He can move to Australia (Shaun
would like that), and just ignore the problem. That's not a likely
choice, but is still a very reasonable choice, and one that a certain
percentage of people would make under the same circumstances. Assuming
he chooses to stay, Harry has hundreds of choices. He can join
Voldemort. He can force an immediate confrontation. He can avoid an
immediate confrontation. He can sneak off to fight alone, or he can
gather a large army to fight by his side. Perhaps, he will choose to
avoid a fight, and defeat Voldemort by stealth, wits, and trickery.
Perhaps the Prophecy can be fullfilled as easily by non-action as by
direct action. The first time Harry defeated Voldemort was by
non-action on Harry's part. 

The Bible says the God created the world (let's not get off on that
tangent), but it doesn't say HOW. To me, Evolution explains how God
did it. Prophecies are like the Bible, they are about 'what', but they
don't dictate how. Just because Harry has a destination, that doesn't
mean he has no choice on how, if, and when he gets there. Just as the
prophecy of 'freezing rain' represents the 'What' in my future
reality; it doesn't effect the 'how' with respect to my reaction to it
or the logical choice I will make. I haven't lost free will just
because it's going to rain.



> Lupinlore concludes:
>
>  Once again, the prophecy is a device to safeguard him from possible
> moral ambiguity.  In contrast to the above situation, I think this
> largely succeeds.  I still feel it is a form of cheating, however. 
> Rather than have Albus face this wrenching decision, and suffer the
> consequences, if only in readers' minds, JKR neatly rescues him by
> once again taking away his power of choice.
> 
> Lupinlore

bboyminn:

In your list of three scenerios, you are concentrating on 'what', when
the freewill and choices in this situation, and in every single day of
our lives, are in the 'how' we deal with the many 'whats' that effect
our lives. 

Remember, there is no guarantee that Harry will win or live. There is
no guarantee that Voldemort will be killed. There is no quarantee that
Dumbledore has interpreted the Prophecy correctly. In fact, I will be
greatly surprise if JKR doesn't have some unforeseen twist in store
for us. Harry could die and Neville could finish off Voldemort.
Voldemort might be vanquished but not killed. With so many variables
and so many possible outcomes, I don't see the Prophecy dictating
anything to anyone. It forewarns, it foreshadows, it forebodes, but it
doesn't dictate.

Harry and Dumbledore have plenty of choices, and those choices will
indeed tell us far more about them than their skill or ability. Their
free will is no more limited by their prophecy than I am by my
prophecy of 'freezing rain'. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Steve/bboyminn